The shoogly peg
Posted on
October 07, 2017 by
Chris Cairns
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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Wings Over ScotlandA tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6GsQp2gKCA
19.28 on this video – was it covered by BBC?
If ever there was a chance for social justice and social fairness in Scotland within the UK Union, that’s when the Scottish ruling elite would back indy – to protect their own selfish interests. In the hope they remain the ruling elite. Sp, little chance of that then.
Till date indy is a threat to the ruling class. The SNP speak a dangerous language about social justice – even if the talk rarely comes to much. It still gives poor people ideas that they can be something. That they can have a say in how the country is run. That it’s their Scotland too. That they have a voice, instead of being told what to do by their so-called “betters”
That’s the most dangerous thing of all, making ordinary people think they can shape their country’s laws and political decisions, instead of just accepting what’s given or taken from them.
As some of these people might start asking: just because that’s the way it’s been for the last 300 years, is it the best way?
We could do better.
Why should society be run to suit the wealthy few, rather than the less wealthy many?
We could have a society that has opportunities for the richer and the poorer.
There will always be richer and poorer, but nobody should be in enforced poverty because of Govt policies.
Poorer people with talents and abilities should have the same opportunities in life to make use of those talents as their wealthier counterparts.
That’s the kind of Scotland I want; many SNP and independence supporters want that too. That’s why they are perceived as a threat by the British Establishment and by many in the Scottish Establishment.
Congratulations to the fledgling state of Catalunya.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that you are fighting, but for freedom..
May you grow and prosper.
Visca Catalunya!!!
@ Rock
Do you not consider your behaviour to be just a wee bit on the creepy side fella? Mebbe take a wee break fae wings and get yir heid the gither.
Great conference speeches today. Was really impressed with the green aspects of it. A9 electric highway, Electricity from renewables supplied to consumers at production cost. Floating windfarms. Selling Scotland as a world leader in research and development of emerging green technologies etc.
Impressive stuff from a forward looking party it has to be said. Makes the other parties look absolutely antiquated in comparison.
Colin Alexander says:
10 October, 2017 at 9:53 pm
So, we’ve had the SNP conference.
What have we learned about the road to independence?
Just like Rock, youre a sneaky shit Colin A, only WoS btl to “spread fear and utter drivel” but lets hear what you make of this amazing speech, from a 22? year old, from Paisley.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/mhairi-black-absolutely-rinsed-jeremy-corbyn-at-the-snp?utm_term=.scG5BWROY#.olJ1eYEm8
She went on: “Don’t come to Scotland like so many before you and condescend [to] us by claiming the Scottish government with 15% of welfare powers can somehow undo Tory austerity when your party voted against devolving the real powers that matter.
“But most of all … don’t dare spread fear and utter drivel about an independent Scotland meaning we would suffer turbo austerity, because while you’re doing that, our Scottish government is saddled with paying £453.8 million mitigating and protecting people from the very worst of the Tory policies that we never voted for in the first place, and they have a cheek to say it’s our fault.”
Compare and contrast Colin A, too, well, whatever it is SLab idiots are trying to get away with in their Scotland region. Maybe relying almost completely on the BBC Scotland gimp network to get you back in to power, isn’t such a cunning plan Baldrick:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Ne92CO628
Is this record posting #1000 then? =grin=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JENrVSB_jtI
@ RJS – still at 999.
Paula Rose @ 10.16pm
I am not sure if Scotland is going to be allowed to benefit from renewables to the extent we should expect to given the way the renewable sector has been promoted and supported by the SG.
A lot of serious investment seems to be taking place down south at the same time Westminster is cutting investment/subsidies to Scottish renewables sector.
http://archive.is/SCTXC
But down south Siemens recently invested £310 million in a new factory in Hull to produce blades for turbines – creating 1000 jobs.
http://archive.is/bmEJl
Re Mhairi Blacks speech, anybody got a link to just her speech, every link I have followed only takes me to an article and no option to watch a video of the speech. I did see one earlier which gave the complete session but it took me about 20 minutes to get to her speech as my iPad was being a pain, its now run out of battery half way through. 🙁
Well done Paula Rose! The 1000th post.
O/T in a way
I just wanted to post this folks, because for me it just sums Nicola up. Did you hear the way she spoke about the baby boxes today? Don’t you think that she would have made a wonderful mother? She’s a natural brimming over with kindness and caring. How lucky are we to have her, as our First Minister.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15585847.Nicola_Sturgeon___Let_s_put_Scotland_in_the_driving_seat___/
I agree Petra – her heart is in the right place, but we’re all her children now.
My O/T is an appeal.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/autumn-livestreams-2017#/
Livestream Autumn 2017 are hugely short on their target and only 12 days to go. Please donate as we need every type of Media coverage to counteract the MSM.
Petra
We’re a’ Nicola Sturgeon’s bairns.
Tory wishful thinking. Libby Brooks is Graun’s torygirl of the millennium, seen last time marching hand in hand with the Orange Order,
You need a heart of stone not to laugh at tories like this crew.
Mix and match, great British prog lib hypocrisy in all its rancid glory.
http://archive.is/U3pvu
Scotland
Orange Order plans ‘loud, proud’ pro-union parade in Edinburgh
Protestant fraternity in Scotland aims to celebrate British heritage on march – with or without Better Together
http://archive.is/zdELj
SNP conference 2017
Signs of burnout at SNP conference: ‘I’m not quite sure what we’re for now’
If Graun or beeb gimp propaganda at this level does manage to get yoons get back in to power, in their Scotland region, we really are all completely fucked.
It’s been a bit frantic on here the past while but today – a really good day for the SNP – has been illuminating. Just what do those who are disappointed want?
If the speeches were not socialist enough then join or support a truly socialist party. If the desire for independence did not seem clear enough then listen harder. Staying in power while making Scotland as independent as possible within the constraints of Westminster is a decent road to travel at this time. All the while working to become self-sufficient in as many visible ways as possible.
If the argument against Independence is that we cannot do stuff on our own then demonstrate we can. Not everything has to be over the top and reminiscent of the post Indyref1 fervour. This is what the MSM would like us to believe is evidence of waining support, that everything should be OTT otherwise support is dying for the SNP and independence. We know otherwise so let’s not fall for it.
Maybe the next referendum should be on membership of both the EU and the UK? Things are changing so fast that until the deal is done we won’t know what is best for us. Like many, my feelings about the EU are a bit conflicted following their response to the Catalan referendum.
I feel Nicola Sturgeon took the right tone and allowed the fireworks to come from others. Mhairi Black was fantastic.
This afternoons SNP conference. Tuesday.
Sturgeon about 1hr 31mins in. (hope I did it right)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skBGvJICZzE
National Trust Scotland have today blitzed my facebook and youtube thingees with a new advert. Is it Sir Neil Oliver OBE, first executive decision and do they have any idea how hard I do not want to go to see anything with his smirk all over it?
https://www.historyscotland.com/news/new-national-trust-for-scotland-treasures-of-scotland-ad-watch-it-here
@ Lenny
http://www.pscp.tv/theSNP/1ypKdlZkeqRKW?t=3778
About 1 hour 5 minutes in.
Stu has told us over & over again ~ don’t reply to the trolls
Their job is purely & simply to disrupt the thread
If they’re totally ignored ~ they fail
If we reply to them, even if it’s to castigate or insult them ~ they succeed
Since they are anonymous, insults don’t hurt them ~ they laugh at us
I scroll by ~ I also scroll by any replies to them ~ I suggest everyone should do likewise
Chang Sha says:
10 October, 2017 at 11:32 pm
Stu has told us over & over again ~ don’t reply to the trolls
Their job is purely & simply to disrupt the thread
If they’re totally ignored ~ they fail
If we reply to them, even if it’s to castigate or insult them ~ they succeed
Yes, we all know this rule. Please please will everyone stop telling everyone to stop reply to rules, is the new new rule:D
Meg and Albert how right you are. She’s looking after us, mothering us all.
Just trying to imagine Davidson or T May in the same position. Although my powers of visualisation are normally excellent, somehow with them it doesn’t quite work for me.
……………………………….
Another REALLY decent Scot, George Kerevan, willing to forfeit the £193,000 salary ..
‘Former SNP MP says he’ll head the FCA and won’t take a salary.’
He say’s he’ll make the FCA a consumer champion (and more) and I bet he would.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15585842.Former_SNP_MP_says_he_ll_head_the_FCA_and_won_t_take_a_salary/
…………………………….
Really looking foward to Boris taking over from T May. That alone should get us over the finishing line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLk5aEZKHcA
Great speeches. Aspirational, inspirational- Scotland is a nation in waiting. Policies that promote equity throughout society ensures stability and economic growth.Crucially a country that controls the means of production of its energy controls its own destiny.
The more I look at that wee falling hook on the Cairnstoon, the more it looks like a wee BNI ninja peg with its arms out saying, “put em up, pur em up, let me at her, let me at her” hehe 🙂
” *batteries not included “:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h25ZL7fxZ8o
Remember this one:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-candle/
DON’T. LET. THEM. DO. THAT. EVER. AGAIN.
Hey Scotland ~
See when we become iScotland.
What is the first song that you think will be played..?
I hear ye Robert J. My point was to castigate and highlight that it wasn’t just about Nicola’s ‘heart being in the right place’, the fact remains they will mitigate in whatever ways are needed to allow EU nationals to stay in Scotland if Brexit happens. Otherwise Scotland will suffer immeasurable damage to our economy and services. Thereby fulfilling the wishful thinking of those against our movements progress.
I concur with others’, today has been a great day, those insufferable intolerant bastards who look for any ‘chink’ that they imagine they see in the SNP’s policies and hopes for our country and communities so that they can exploit and encourage divisiveness amongst us, can get tae hell.
Nicola Sturgeon does not do ‘pie in the sky’. The last ten years and their record in government along with social attitudes studies and current polling completely hole any erroneous claims that the SNP are in any way ‘struggling’ as a force for good in Scotland. Nor are they attempting to persuade our population to vote form them for the sake of their ‘popularity’. Introducing polices that tackle the biggest issues of our time, and finding ways to mitigate ‘austerity’ and dealing with structural inequality at all levels in our society paves the way for the kind of country we want to live in.
One that has love and compassion at its heart, where it is not about rich versus poor but about everyone really having an ‘equal’ start in life.
The fact is the SNP’s true aim and commitment to the people of Scotland can be summed up thusly: No child left behind.
Cactus Dear – this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPowvspa4BI
Here here k1. No child left behind!
Good conference. 🙂
😉 Song
William Wallace – Thanks
Well it’s after the witching hour….and probably far enough into the thread don’t ya think?
Sooo a definite OT….
A fantasy 2021 Holyrood manifesto commitment…
The not for profit energy company will be SELLING at cost it’s excess power to the rest of the UK and using the proceeds to discount Scotland’s price’s.
Now that’s something that I would bet the house that Scots would get right behind.
The best way IMHO to safeguard Holyrood from any attempt to weaken it…….AKA.. The people, would go nuts if Westminster tried to take that away.
And I don’t need to tell anyone on here what a welcome a policy like that would get in the media.
Leaving no doubt for any Scot about how we are really viewed by those in the London bubble.
well thurs
Mair than wan wie tae skin a cat
….if we needed to go into the 2021 Holyrood Election with the Treaty of the Union still a live document and therefore needed a SNAP majority, let’s really give Scotland something tae vote fur.
Heating or eating gone …. every one benifits and gets heating made in Scotland….for Scotland.
Now there’s an actual plan B for Indy
Excellent post K1. ‘No child left behind.’ On the foundation stone of an Independent Scotland.
…………………………………
@ William Wallace says at 11:31 pm …. ”Lenny (Mhairi) about 1 hour 5 minutes in.”
http://www.pscp.tv/theSNP/1ypKdlZkeqRKW?t=3778
I’ve been hopping around the video due to a shortage of time and no doubt missing some great speeches, however another I’ve come across is Jeanne Freeman’s at 11:00am.
……………………………………………..
Cactus says at 12:00 am … ”Hey Scotland ~ See when we become iScotland. What is the first song that you think will be played..?
I know you’ll be looking for something a bit cheerier, lol, but we could start with this one which will get us into a right bad mood and then we’ll all go absolutely dokey, as only Scots can do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD_0UJwnSIo
Newspapers set to ditch the SNP Baad campaign due to poor results for a new and improved campaign of *SNP too good to be true* campaign
Red eyed with twisted internal organs after todays conference speeches Scottish “journalists” have been seen hurling themselves at each other in inconsolable desperation as their free drink ran out and they were forced to go home and consume their spouses and partners cooking sherry and Listerine they were saving for that special occasion
Still, tomorrow is another day and once they’ve had the usual pub journo lunch a new failing strategy will unfold
So it’s over to you BBC to lead the Union charge in defence of the realm
So I’ll just click my heels three times and see you tomorrow on Reporting Scotland Jackie Bird, you go girl!
Remember Jackie let’s call it *Leccy Max*
@Liz g
Nothing is O/T on this thread anymore 🙂
Anyway the idea of not for profit energy comapny run by the SG is an absolutely brilliant idea, I’ll certainly be switching to them and the more that do the cheaper they’ll be able to buy their electricity and gas for.
This won’t go unnoticed that’s for sure, power companies will be trembling and having board meetings about this. I didn’t know that this was even possible but glad to hear it is.
I hope this new enterprise can put the others out of business in Scotland, energy should be in public hands and this is the first step. Currently they would have to buy power direct from the market as many companies do that sell it on to us.
The next step would be to produce power themselves, that would be a game changer in the energy market in my eyes.
Oh well, we’ve still got Scotland.
http://news.sky.com/story/uk-trade-deficit-hits-record-high-in-august-as-imports-jump-11074656
Thrilled about the energy thing. Well overdue.
Alex Clark @ 12.39
agree totally.
Colin Alexander
How on earth can a system of government be expected to produce positive results, if the environment it operates within won’t allow for positive outcomes to occur?
The ‘One Nation’ ideology drains Scotland of her vital energies, without benefit to Scotland. Not unless you call three centuries of under-development “progress”, of course.
@Alex Clark, 12.39am
Anyway the idea of not for profit energy comapny run by the SG is an absolutely brilliant idea, I’ll certainly be switching to them and the more that do the cheaper they’ll be able to buy their electricity and gas for.
And so will I. A brilliant idea.
cirsium @ 01:17,
Yes, that one is going to be very popular indeed, I expect.
With everyone except maybe diehard BritNats, who would rather pay through the nose than admit that the SG is really doing the day job?
Heh, heh.
Robert J Sutherland @ 1.39
Couldn’t agree more I will be switching as well.
But mair tae the point so will all our pensioners.
They pay attention to stuff like this.
This move is inspired!
“But mair tae the point so will all our pensioners.
They pay attention to stuff like this.” (Liz g)
So right Liz, but if Nicola really wants to get the pensioners on board she’ll do no better than lift the Scottish pension levels to at least mid-table in the EU pension league where they currently languish near the bottom.
All that oil but cannae help the pensioners will damage the independence cause no end – just like last time when the pensioners were ignored. What a monumental error that was.
@Rock says: 10 October, 2017 at 9:23 pm:
“She means well, but Nicola has ZERO control over UK immigration policy.
As we have seen with the many deportations from Scotland.
After a “snap” Brexit, Scotland will be at the mercy of the Westminster government.”
Dear! Oh! Dear!
Are you really as bloody stupid as you seem?
Of course Nicola has no control over immigration policy. All alert readers are aware that immigration is a reserved matter.
Which is exactly the reason Nicola has instigated an SG policy that cleverly retains and encourages post Brexit EU Citizens employed by Scottish government or Scottish Local authorities, to remain in Scotland.
Are you really so stupid that you could not work that clever strategy out?
I only stumbled upon your daft post because I was searching the thread for something heedtracker had already posted or I wouldn’t have seen you comment. It only reinforces my resolve to scroll past your useless negativity and attempts to divert threads.
“”Can I appeal to each and every one of you at this conference those here those watching at home who are SNP members please go back to your branches and constituencies and map out an organisational plan for the next years.
“Because … there are 1,300 and some days until the next Scottish Parliamentary election and there will also be a referendum on Scottish independence.” Angus Robertson Depute Leader SNP
“When we think about those wasted opportunities, it should make us all the more determined that, in future, we will do things differently. It should make us determined to put Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.
Friends, As I have always said, Scotland should have the right to choose our future when the terms of Brexit are clear. We have a mandate to give the people that choice.
That mandate was won fairly and squarely. But exercising it must be done with the interests of all of Scotland at heart. People want clarity about Brexit first. We respect that. But to all of you here in this hall and across our country who are impatient for change, let me say this.
We may not yet know exactly when the choice will be made. But we can, we must, and we will always make the case for independence. With the UK government so engulfed in chaos and taking the country down a path of self imposed decline, the need to do so has never been greater.” Nicola Sturgeon First Minister of Scotland and SNP Leader.
Sounds about right. 😉
Just watched John Nicholson utterly fillet Jo Coburn on Daily politics immediately prior to Nicolas speech.
Challenged the media to stop giving Ruthie an easy ride, brought up the point the tax powers were very limited and the SG does not have the REAL fiscal levers to grow the economy, Scotland being only the 2nd country to discover oil and have no oil fund, independence did not rely on oil/price, SG mitigation of tory policies like bedroom tax and more, also spoke about how the SG cannot legally run a deficit, and reminded Coburn ALL countries run a deficit, just look at the size of the uk one for example…indy Scotland with a deficit you say ? So what, totally normal.
Better yet, never let Coburn butt in and talk over him.
Coburn glad to see Nicola get up to speak by looks of it…fabulous performance.
@Petra says: 10 October, 2017 at 11:07 pm:
” … Don’t you think that she would have made a wonderful mother? She’s a natural brimming over with kindness and caring. How lucky are we to have her, as our First Minister.”
Strange you should post that, Petra. I had thoughts along the same lines a wee while back.
My thoughts were along the lines that perhaps we should update an old Scots saying to, “Wir aa Nicola Sturgeon’s Bairns”
I thought that in Nicola’s mind the People of Scotland are her bairns. Doesn’t she look after us all so well?
@Alex Clark says: 11 October, 2017 at 12:39 am:
“Anyway the idea of not for profit energy comapny run by the SG is an absolutely brilliant idea, I’ll certainly be switching to them and the more that do the cheaper they’ll be able to buy their electricity and gas for.”
Aye! Alex, I’ve been giving that one a bit of thought too.
In the first place I see no good reason Westminster can come up with to prevent that great idea going ahead.
Take, for example the many rip-off Arms-Length companies that Glasgow Council had set up and all of them with boards stuffed with Labour Councillors, ex-councillors of their Labour party best buddies.
So there seems nothing legally to prevent the SG setting up not-for-profit companies or failing that SG Arms-Length companies for, well, just about anything. Even if they cannot do so directly as the Scottish government, (and Waste-monster will certainly try to stop them).
Here’s another wee thought – what about setting up an SG Arm’s Length Oil & Gas extraction Company who could be non-profit making and donate the company profits to an SG Scottish Oil-Fund?
After all the licences to prospect and to extract oil & gas are sold to the highest bidder by Waste-monster.
I’m sure a legal way could be found. Even if it was set up as a private company. It could even issue shares to Scottish residents or even allow pensioners to buy shares to boost their pensions. Mind you shares can go down as well as up.
Anyhow I have not yet though the idea through to any real conclusions just yet but the idea certainly has possibilities.
I guess the thing about a state energy company is that it has control over its set of tariffs. So, if it wants, I presume it can promote a green energy tariff by subsidising it from other tariffs. Usually I think green tariffs are more expensive, long time since I looked at my co-operative energy one (I went for the cheapest).
The thing about that is, is that it can, presumably within whatever state subsidy rules there are, pass on that extra demand to the suppliers, whereas perhaps the state itself can’t, and therefore encourage green energy producers. I think.
The problem with this, of course, is that it does make it look like there’s some joined-up thinking going on, with the CCS support for the Acorn project, and even electrification of the A9 to give a long-term project and demand for the state energy company to grow on.
To me it smacks of some input from Andrew Wilson’s economic advisors, which are due to report – at the right time – on currency, the economy and, err, thing, for Indy.
It looks like there is some sort of devilishly cunning overall strategic plan in place, and this is of course bad news, not just for Scotland, but for Unionists.
SNP Bad!
🙂
Oh, go to this page and try a Nottingham postcode, one I used was this: NG7 1GX – just to see an example of a not for profit energy company.
https://join.robinhoodenergy.co.uk/tariffs
I agree, SNP Bad!
http://www.se4all.org/content/rise-sustainable-energy-policies
World Bank Scores Sustainable Energy Policies
http://sdg.iisd.org/news/world-bank-scores-sustainable-energy-policies/
Energy sources in Scotland
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Energy-sources
Back in around 2012, the SG granted a licence to Thames Water to be able to compete for water supplies in Scotland. Well, there were outcries about this from the Unionists, sneers and sniggers, as you’d expect. So I checked it out. First of all it didn’t apply to domestic water, just business, here’s some background info:
https://www.scotlandontap.gov.uk/
and here’s the list of suppliers businesses can choose from:
https://www.scotlandontap.gov.uk/suppliers/suppliers
but looking into it further, at that time (no idea if it’s the same), the one that had 92.5% of the customers and was the best deal for most (like my unit) was this one:
https://www.business-stream.co.uk/
And who owns it? Scottish Water, who supply all the others, and the domestic market.
The point being that the state owned electric company would presumably also have an arms-length commercial arm, and the commercial market is large.
Cactus says:
11 October, 2017 at 12:00 am
Hey Scotland ~
See when we become iScotland.
What is the first song that you think will be played..?
Auld Lang Syne
Like Robert I haven’t sussed this out yet, but it seems to me that if the state energy can capture enough of the domestic market on which it makes no profit, that can give the commercial arm competitive rates for the commercial market, and as far as I can see, that means the commercial arm can make a profit, as well as capturing a large part of the commercial market. Which is gooood!
Ah right, Douglas Fraser has it all sussed, I’ll shut up now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41574411
Kind of reminds me of that film Baby Boom “what is that noise?”. I guess you could say that about the whole thing, never mind just the energy company. Mmm, Statoil, delicious.
Oh shit, I’ve just realised this fits in well with ScottieDog’s MMT as well.
The Scottish Gov could set up an publicly owned Oil & Company . Not subject to Westminster illegal taxes. Any profits going to the Scottish Gov. With proper workers right and improved health and safety standards. Imagine having to buy back you own assets because of Westminster bastards. It could bring major benefits in the long run. The sky’s the limit to take back Scottish assets.
Scottish assets should be invested in the people and communities needing investment. Not go south to support £Billionaires and their totally extravagant, greedy, grubby lifestyles.
.
I guess Iberdrola (aka the former Scottish Power) and Scottish Gas (who are really just British Gas under a different name) have already been lobbying the Westminster parties about this new state owned power company. The UK may still be larely controlled by Ultra-Yoon companies, but Scotland the brand is still seen as a necessary branding by them in some cases.
How ironic that a market set up to favour private energy suppliers is soon to be challenged by a publicly owned company.
Now get the carbon capture and energy storage problems solved and all is good north of the border energy wise.
Also the Scottish government must be looking at ways to force the scrapping of energy surcharges to the Scottish Islands. Why should these remote communities, many of whom already have (or soon will have) wind turbine and tidal generating connections be paying extra for cheap, green energy.
Oh look President Puigdemont owns the National TV station pumping out propaganda supporting himself.
There is no free and fair democracy in the world where that would happened.
Was a Mayor of Girona, wonder how much pub,is money was syphoned To support his own promotion, or illegal Independence Declarations. Your Independent on a flaudukebt illegal vote. Or no your not. Wants to be Catalonia on the map? Wants to put himself on the map for self promotion. Wasting £Billions of public money. Criminal liar. Was a lying journalist. Typical everything is coming together for self promotion. Mas etc. Propaganda.
The majority of the people are not voting for it. Not being taken in. £Millionaire chancers. Wonder how much tax they are paying. Full and frank declaration. or assets,investments salted away. What a bunch of crooks. Using the poor perplexed people in a most malicious way. Offering people promises that could not keep and were not supported by the majority. In any way shape or form. The Emperor has clay feet.
Looks like there is a guid few troughers in the Catalan Parliament for 7.5 Million people. Taking the gravy train.
I missed John Nicholson’s performance against Jo Cobun (didn’t Oor Andra train her well to be a Yoon propagandist?), but, maybe the SNP shoud be using the likes of him, Angus Robertson and Wee Eck to spearhead the Indyref2/Independence drive.
Set-up an Independence team, but, keep the likes of Nicola and John Swinney at arm’s length, so, they only appear on TV or do media stuff when it specifically refers to matters concerning the Scottish Government, and the immediate governance of Scotland.
If they (the media, particularly the BBC) want to discuss Independence, then they have to speak to one of the Independence Team.
Immediately, you have taken the “Get on with the day job” angle away from the enemies of Independence such as Colonel Yadaftie, or whoever is leading BLiS that week.
Links
Scots jobs at risk as BAE Systems cuts 2000 UK posts
http://archive.is/iXWeo
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/unethical-constitutions-deserve-no.html
http://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/snp-relaunch-its-europe-manifesto-revised-efta-plan
John Nicolson answers Coburn
https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/917774593774862336
Fergus Ewing: Scottish farmers robbed of £160m EU farm payments
http://archive.is/l3qXQ
http://rbs.postach.io/post/on-balance
Subject: European Union (Withdrawal) Bill: Implications for devolution
2.30pm today
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3362f90f-3f0b-4539-b2ec-828ec55ff62d
http://indyref2.scot/bbc-reporting-scotland-analysis-week-beginning-25-september-2017
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/environment/house/house-magazine/89702/angus-macneil-uk-has-failed-scotlands-fishing
http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/10/the-heralds-parody-news/
Glasgow wins race to set up first Low Emission Zone in Scotland
http://archive.is/ldvwv
‘Worst case’ Brexit model shows average farm incomes falling by £23,000 a year, says AHDB
http://archive.is/Nic63
Address by President Donald Tusk to the European Committee of the Regions
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/10/10-tusk-committee-regions/
No cash in Budget for ‘no-deal’ Brexit, says Hammond
http://archive.is/ihknv
Maybot adopts radio silence over Brexit in LBC interview
http://archive.is/gFCjg
http://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/BALPA-says-a-Brexit-%E2%80%98no-deal%E2%80%99-would-spell-disaster
http://www.catalangovernment.eu/pres_gov/government/en/news/303583/official-statement-president-political-situation-catalonia.html
http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/857-noam-chomsky-and-the-bbc-a-brief-comparison.html
https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/need-4-day-week-tackle-multiple-crises-work/
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/by-accident-or-design-no-deal-brexit-is.html?m=1
@ Socrates MacSporran
Great idea, been thinking the same, though hadn’t thought it through as well as that… ‘then they have to speak to one of the Independence Team’. Brilliant.
All great speakers who don’t put up wi’ coprolite and who are more likely to have the answers to any of the hundreds of questions those wonderful interviewers won’t let folk answer!
@ Meg Merrilees 11.11
I mentioned this about 4/5 days ago. I’m baffled as to why this is not being supported.
Come on folks, get this out there and dig deep.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/autumn-livestreams-2017#/
BBC r4 Today gimps massive Catalonia bad propaganda this morn and they’re clearly struggling with their leaderene still voting Remain too.
FT,
Mrs May, who voted Remain in last year’s referendum, refused three times during a radio phone-in to say how she would vote given another chance.
“I could sit here and I could say I’d still vote Remain or I’d vote Leave just to give you an answer to that question,” she told Iain Dale, on LBC. “I’m being open and honest with you. What I did last time around was I looked at everything and came to a judgment and I’d do exactly the same this time around.
Imagine all the roasters of UKOK hackdom in meltdown, if FM Sturgeon was even remotely this barking mad?
@Nana
This bit from the speech of Puigdemont:
“. . . opening a dialogue has been proposed to agree a referendum similar to the one held in Scotland on 18 September 2014. A referendum with the date and a question agreed between the two sides, in which both sides could campaign and present their arguments, and in which both sides commit to accepting and applying the result through a negotiation which protects their respective interests. If that has been possible in one of the oldest, most consolidated and exemplary democracies in the world, as the United Kingdom is, why could it not also be done in Spain?”
If Scotland has been a friend to Catalonia, that bit from his speech is full repayment for it, in that it makes it more incumbent on the UK Government to acquiesce when the request for the Section 30 is repeated, or put the lie to his acknowledgement in the eyes of the watching world.
@Nana
Quite a list to get through there Nana and I’m only on toast this morning. This might take a while. 😀
“In with the same solemnity, the Government and I myself propose that the Parliament suspends the effects of the declaration of independence . . .”
That, with the preceding sentences, makes it very clear that Independence has been declared and suspended, not as some reports have said, that the declaration itself has been suspended. No, it’s the effects have been suspended to allow dialogue.
It is a model even with a fully agreed Section 30 and Edinburgh Agreement that I think Scotland could copy, perhaps with modifications, so that while negotiations with the rUK can start, Scotland can also proceed as a proto-Independent state with whatever applications it needs to go forward.
@ Nana
Was wondering how to spend two hours at Gatwick airport. Many thanks as always for the links.
@ yesindyref2 indeed. My ears pricked up when I heard Scotland mentioned. The stream I was watching cut out at exactly that moment, there was a mad dash to find another.
@Macart
Eat slowly and save some for later.
https://stv.tv/news/north/1399496-new-north-sea-find-could-contain-130m-barrels-of-oil/
Oh no. But BBC r4 tories go massive with Pres Obama and wife angry at Harvey Weinstein.
I toryboy UKOK shit you not.
Was wondering how to spend two hours at Gatwick airport. Many thanks as always for the links.
Seconded. Thank you Nana! I’m seated in a Glesga bus, nae bad wifi too.
Socrates Mac Sporran @ 7.15
That’s a brilliant idea,and what a team they would be.
I would also bet that those who plotted to get British Nationalist MP’s into those seat’s at the GE would regret freeing up that team!
And it would be seen as a huge mistake…when the history of this is written.
Socrates MacSporran says:
11 October, 2017 at 7:15 am
I missed John Nicholson’s performance against Jo Cobun (didn’t Oor Andra train her well to be a Yoon propagandist?), but, maybe the SNP shoud be using the likes of him, Angus Robertson and Wee Eck to spearhead the Indyref2/Independence drive.
In the same context as what you’re suggesting, I said ages ago that the SNP should have two manifestos. The domestic “we’re the government” Manifesto, and the Manifesto specifically for Independence.
It would serve as a similar tool to turn any interview which is meant to be about Indy straying into domestic issues, especially devolved issues like eduction.
If that had been done, the last General Election would have been more orderly, and for example, Nicola would have had a ready counter to deflect aggressive imbeciles like Nick Robinson’s “stick to your record”.
I know that was a devolved issue in a General Election for Westminster, but it’s the principle of the thing. It would work as a device like a shepherds crook to help guide the interview back to the topic of independence and sovereignty, and help ensure IndyRef2 stays focussed on our agenda and narrative, not the Unionist hymn book of 2014.
@Arabs for Independence
Happy to help pass the time. Remember to stretch your legs occasionally
Here’s one more [just for you]
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/central-banks-and-imf-warm-centralized-digital-currencies/#1507233561
@yesindyref2
Yes, that is what the statement suggests to me too. I have an uneasy feeling though. Rajoy’s responses to date have been less than reasonable or democratic. Stupid, hasty and irrational yes, especially in this day and age. He should have known there’s no managing the message anymore.
Unfortunately the Spanish government have taken the actions they’ve taken and made the statements they’ve made. They may just reckon on in for a penny…?
Regardless, I don’t see them caving on their position and clearly they’re not overly worried about EU intervention.
The world really, REALLY needs to watch this and learn. It’s not enough to talk about human rights, democracy and self determination. They have to walk the walk too.
@Socratese MacSporran
Well, they’ve got the talent and experience to spare these days. 😉
The fascist that the BBC made a household name, bites back.
I’d love to hear a BBC ligger like say Jim Naughty, who worked really hard to get UKIP going in Scotland, explain why. Maybe nation state Scotland will have a truth and reconciliation thing, just for the BBC Scotland fraudsters.
Nigel Farage?Verified account @Nigel_Farage 11h
Me for @Telegraph: Theresa May is now the EU’s Stepford Wife: subservient and submissive to their every whim.
heedtracker says:
I’ve been thinking that. In iScotland we will all have to work together as Scots. However, there has been a lot of divisive undermining, sabotage, and damage directed at the democratic process and Scottish institutions since 2007, racking up with each step the SNP take towards achieving self determination. There has been astonishingly little actual debate and case made for their Union – it has been mainly negative and underhand tactics, not standup politics,
We will need to put all this behind us (the reconciliation bit), but I think we need to get it all out into the open and set the record straight in what was done by whom (the truth bit). Not a witch hunt, but a thorough investigation so everyone has a clear view on what all has transpired. Otherwise, many folks who were Unionists will be unable to move forward and accept the new setup because their views are based on the years of propaganda and fake news.
yesindyref2 says:
11 October, 2017 at 8:06 am
“In with the same solemnity, the Government and I myself propose that the Parliament suspends the effects of the declaration of independence . . .”
That, with the preceding sentences, makes it very clear that Independence has been declared and suspended, not as some reports have said, that the declaration itself has been suspended. No, it’s the effects have been suspended to allow dialogue.“
You miss a vitally important distinction too. The Suspension of Independence which is declared, puts Catalonia in the same situation as Scotland. If they can now persuade the International Community that the Catalans are now sovereign, then they escape the chains of Madrid’s constitutional sovereignty, and enter a transitional stage which formally truncates the one Sovereignty of Spain, which has now arguably become two separate sovereignties.
In Constitutional terms, Puigdemont is playing a clever game for very high stakes. He has delivered the Catalans more negotiations, but altered negotiations, with a credible claim on being sovereign, not a region of Spain. He has opened up all sorts of possibilities of International recognition, and created constitutional ambiguity which the Catalans did not have with their constitutionally unlawful referendum.
It is ALL about the sovereignty people. You either see it or you don’t. The Catalans are giving themselves the tools and instruments of a Nation. To our shame, Scotland already has them, but is too scared or constitutionally illiterate to use them. The Catalans must look upon Scotland’s glacial progress towards Independence with considerable “what are you waiting for” bewilderment.
The Catalans must now manage to get their sovereignty recognised, just like Scotland should right now be trying to get our Constitutional Sovereignty recognised. Not to declare Independence itself, postpone that until the discussions are resolved, but make it crystal clear who does, and who does not make the decisions. Holyrood, not Westminster for Scotland, Barcelona, not Madrid for Catalonia.
Don’t be surprised if the forthcoming talks over Catalonia’s future now feature strong mediation from Europe, and very quickly make plans for a legal, recognised constitutional plebiscite to ratify what Catalans actually want. A sovereign plebiscite which Spain dare not interfere with… theoretically. (There is alway’s the Spanish wildcard option, where Spain will fight to the death). This process of losing Catalonia will hurt and anger Spain, so we need to make some allowances for that.
Catalonia needs International recognition, but Spain needs International Counselling and support. In my opinion, Jean Claude Juncker is in a perfect position to mediate and provide both. Are you paying attention Scotland?
I don’t see Norway or Switzerland desperately trying to keep the peace and keep the sides talking in Catalonia. They aren’t, because they couldn’t. It’s as simple as that. EFTA is nothing when weighed pound for pound beside our European citizenship, and the Goliath with a good heart which we can be a part of.
@Macart
It’s a worry right enough. Here’s what Tusk said in his address to the ECR (Regions) yesterday before Puigdemont’s evening speech.
“Before you start the debate, allow me – at this extraordinary time for Catalonia and the whole of Spain – to address in your presence the President of the Generalitat de Catalunya, Mr Carles Puigdemont, shortly before his speech. I appeal to you not only as the President of the European Council, but also as a strong believer in the motto of the EU: “United in diversity”, as a member of an ethnic minority and a regionalist, as a man who knows what it feels like to be hit by a police baton. And as a former prime minister of a big European country. In brief, as someone who understands and feels the arguments and emotions of all sides.
A few days ago, I asked Prime Minister Rajoy to look for a solution to the problem without the use of force. To look for dialogue. Because the force of arguments is always better than the argument of force. Today I ask you to respect – in your intentions – the constitutional order and not to announce a decision that would make such a dialogue impossible. Diversity should not, and need not, lead to conflict, whose consequences would obviously be bad: for the Catalans, for Spain and for the whole of Europe. Let us always look for what unites us, and not for what divides us. This is what will decide the future of our continent.”
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/10/10-tusk-committee-regions/
It’ll be interesting to see what Tusk’s reaction is now. But it still seems like the finger is wagging at Puigdemont and Catalonia, not Rajoy and Spain. And that’s one-sided, the easy and cowardly way out.
Here’s a letter I’ve sent to the Observer newspaper. If it’s not published, I live in the hope that friends on here will like it.
_________
Dear Sir,
You comment on the “escapism” of independence and the associated images of “flags, clenched fists and Braveheart heroics” with regard to the current situation in Catalonia (“While Europe’s leaders dither, the cost of Spain’s divisions become clear” The Observer 08 October 2017).
When will Fleet Street put these well-worn tropes to bed? Scots, (at whom this Mel Gibson view of history jibe is intended) are sick of the matching their history to those of an Aussie-American and how it is suppose to fuel their ideas of nationhood.
Yet, despite this, intriguingly enough, your same editorial refers to,
” … national frontiers especially in Europe count for less and lees, especially among the young [and] the 19th century concept of the exclusive nation state is increasingly anachronistic.”
Now, here’s the thing: there was a clear majority of “the young” who voted for Scottish independence in the 2014 Referendum. They, along with many “oldies” were voting for an inclusive and European Scotland. This free and European Scotland was the one further endorsed by the 2016 Brexit referendum – an ideal you’d think that would appeal to a self-styled, liberal minded, internationalist and serious British newspaper; indeed, one that promotes its pro-Europeaness and its belief that the days of the nation state are numbered.
Neither Scotland or Catalonia (nor my own country, Wales) are “creating more walls” in their desire for self-determination, as your editorial would have readers think. On the contrary, it is the elite and uncompromising Governments in Madrid and London who are stopping the peoples of these areas their unalienable rights in the sun – rights shared equally by other freedom loving (and enjoying) peoples, who the Observer are willing so often to champion.
Yours faithfully,
Mhairi Black’s speech for those who missed it.
It’s a cracker!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDGo0u0pj1s&feature=youtu.be
Nice swictheroo on the pissed up hack line. So clever arent they:D
Jamie Ross?Verified account
@JamieRoss7
Apparently the bar in the hotel which is housing most of the SNP staff stopped serving alcohol last night because everyone was too drunk.
1:58 am – 10 Oct 2017
Honest unionists should be asking themselves, If the Scottish government are doing this well for Scotland,in comparison to the tories for england. Just think how so much better they could do with FFA and control of our own resources.
Welsh sion. Great letter,dont hold your breath on it being printed.
galamcennalath says:
11 October, 2017 at 9:04 am
heedtracker says:
I’m only kidding though:D
Beeb gimp network is much more than just a UK tory propaganda machine, they’re a giant representation of real power that will simply not allow Scotland to become a nation state again.
That’s not saying it’s not going to happen, its happening election after election. But the fact is, our imperial masters just will not allow it.
I really don’t know anything about Spain and Catalonia but the Spanish block on Catalonia leaving Spain is just a more extreme version of the English tory block on Scotland.
Sometimes we just have to accept that power in the UK really is completely in the hands of a tiny number of filthy rich people. Its not nice, its not fair, its how it works in teamGB. Their liggers, goons and henchman, UKOK hackdom, are just that. Nothing more, nothing less.
heedtracker at 7.53
It merely confirms thew suspicion I have that there is a huge effort going onto frustrate and reverse the Brexit decision.
@ Breeks.
You lying little gasysrd. Peddling your usual pish, you do nit even support Independence. You fucking liar. Or why come on here obsessively peddling you Pish. You fucking lunar. Exacting your revenge for a non returned e-Mail from the SNP. You little shyster. Non rational, which has now obviously turned into your main passion in life. To try and damage the SNP way, just do not use Wings to do it. It is a truly Independence site, You could not give a damn about Independence. Or why peddle such an lot of anti SNP shite. You bastard.
‘It put Catalonia in the same position.of Scotland’. It does NOT.
Peddling your usual dangerous poison.
It puts Catalonia nowhere near the positions of Scotlamd.
It is declaring UDI without the backing of the majority.of the people. A totally illegal Act for which Puigdemonl will go to jail.
It is nothing like the same position. In Scotland everything that has been done is with a massive majority /votes. By the shoalful. Totally Lawful and brings benefits in every way.
Not led up the garden path by a snake.Puigdemonl. Everyone will know his name when he goes to jail for totally thwarting Demicracy and Justice in every way. He will get his international fame. He so craves and is looking for. Grandiose egotistic. paranoia. A total charlatan with nowhere to run. Every time the vote has gone against him. Frequently. He has just ignored it and run ruff shod over the people’s wishes. Now he is nothing but an affront. An embarrassment. Calling to others to bail him out with the realisation of what he has done. He is the dictator, the facist.
That bastard because of the constant unneccessay, irrational. comparison to Scotland, in a totally different situation. He could damage the Scottish Independence Movement which has alway been Lawful and play be the rules. No overridden democracy icon decisions at every turn. His chaos could put off folk voting for Indepenence in Scotland, without knowing the full details and background.
@yesindyref2
Yes, that was the statement I had in mind.
Ken500 ,I dont know whit it is your on. But if you could bottle or package it. It would be illegal.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
11 October, 2017 at 9:44 am
heedtracker at 7.53
It merely confirms thew suspicion I have that there is a huge effort going onto frustrate and reverse the Brexit decision.
Absofuckinglutely!
No wonder, what a catastrofuck it all is.
You can bet all those civil servants are all really sitting in that Brexit HQ thing in Whitehall, wondering how on earth they can back track their stupid way out of it all, without starting a civil war with fascist England.
So that’s calming:D
If you’re a suspicious YES vote on anything UK, youre right to be.
For years I have looked at the cover of my passport and its got on my nerves. On the right of the UK embossed emblem passport cover, there the unicorn of Scotland, on the left, the English lion.
The Scots unicorn is chained by the neck, the English lion? free.
Look on the bright side Ken. If Scotland is Brexited, we won’t need those clickety lids on medicine bottles anymore, and you’ll can get to your meds in the morning.
Clearly “care in the community” isn’t working for Ken500. He needs sectioning….
@ Breeks
You fucking little bastard. The only one that needs medis you. For you fucking totally irrational anti SNP obsession because an e-Mail was not returned. You obnoxious little bastard. You fucking obsession to come on an Indepenednce website incessantly peddling you anti SNP shite. You moron. Folk are sick of it. Now get to fuck. Your irrational malice stands out in every posts. Blaming the SNP because a business failed because an e-Mail was not returned. It Is likely the business failed because and obsessive incompetent was running it. Get over it and get lost.
@Bobp Vestos
You can pish off as well. Sanctimonious bastards.
That like prick has been getting away with it for months.
Yes, getting that little prick telt has bright up the day. So thanks.
Re non-profit making state owned energy supplier why not add to that a non-profit making state/publicly owned bank along the lines of the old Trustee Savings Banks.
There would be a stampede of people fleeing the clutches of the likes of RBS, BoS and the other greedy bastards with their multi million pound bonuses.
I used to have all my savings with the Dunfermline BS. When the DBS hit problems due to Labour’s crazy mismanagement of the economy – instead of rescuing them The Great Clunking Fist refused and handed them over to the Nationwide BS. This means that my savings which were part of the Scottish economy disappeared south of the border overnight.
Breeks says:
11 October, 2017 at 9:58 am
Look on the bright side Ken. If Scotland is Brexited, we won’t need those clickety lids on medicine bottles anymore, and you’ll can get to your meds in the morning.
Breeks are you an SNP voter though?
Its not a requirement, to be a SNP voter and btl WoS commentatorisor dude but if you’re not going to vote SNP, and you’d like me to stop voting SNP, you’re really going to have explain how on earth Scotland will ever become a nation state, again.
So I’m with my honorable friend Ken500:D
Unless you do have a stop voting SNP for indy Scotland cunning plan Breeks. Keep asking big swinging SNP bad dingdongs like Rock, Colin Alexander, the WoS dilettante prick spotter, all of the above too but answers, come there none?
I mean Breeks, wtf is actually going in Spain?
Is this fake news and is your SNP bad stuff, that they’re not going nuts at Westminster for our sovereignty actually based on Catalonia?
http://catalannews.com/politics/item/thousands-gather-in-anticipation-of-puigdemont-s-crucial-speech
@Heedtracker
It’s not complicated Heed, but people just don’t see it.
Look at Catalonia, they voted for Independence, but their vote carried no weight because it had no sovereignty underpinning it. Without knowing all the details, and apologies to the Catalans, but they were premature. They should have tested Spain’s decree of illegality, and won some kind of licence from the the UN to hold a referendum against the will of the Spanish Government. The people with recognised constitutional sovereignty over a Catalonia were the Spanish, who declared it illegal, and in law, the International Community is bound by that law. Spain is sovereign over Catalonia. Do you understand me so far? Spain has the final say over Catalonia, and Catalonia’s separation or otherwise is a matter of Spanish internal domestic policy. That is why the International community’s hands were tied. Sovereignty is the distinction between a country being a country or not being a country.
By declaring its Independence, but not enacting it, the Catalans have given Catalonia the status of a Nation in waiting which has its own sovereignty, and thus can create a sovereign legislature to hold a new referendum or plebiscite which will command international recognition where their earlier referendums have not.
A referendum which is not underpinned by the power of sovereignty is not binding upon anyone. Whoever it is who does command sovereignty can simply ignore that referendum, declare it illegal, – do what they like because they are sovereign.
In Scotland, we HAVE constitutional sovereignty according to the letter of Law, at least Scots law, but what we do not have is International recognition of that sovereignty. At this moment in time, the International community recognises Westminster as the sovereign authority for the whole UK, and that view will reign supreme until somebody formally changes it.
Because Westminster is recognised internationally as the sovereign government of the UK, if Scotland had an Independence referendum tomorrow under those circumstances, Westminster would be the Internationally recognised as the sovereign government presiding over that internal domestic referendum, Scotland would seen as a sub-sovereign Region of the UK, and Westminster would be free to ignore the referendum result, call it unlawful, frame the question, – disrupt it and interfere as much as it liked, citing the UK constitution, and asserting that Westminster has Parliamentary Sovereignty over Scotland. Sounds horrific, but that is not far off the status quo.
Yes, of course you could argue upon the premise of Scot’s Law defining this and protecting that, but that only holds water as an argument if Scotland has the sovereignty to defend it. If Westminster is sovereign, Westminster can keep or sweep away whatever it likes. And lately, my word they are getting bolder about doing it. The Lords took back Renewables, May is on course for her Great Repeal Bill without so much as a caveat relating to Scots Law.
It is that same Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty which would empower Westminster to shut down Holyrood, and or affect the Great Repeal Bill over the whole UK, including Scotland, thus potentially sweeping away all the Scottish institutions currently protected by Scotland’s sovereignty.
If Westminster chose that approach, and all the signs are telling us that is exactly where we are headed, then Scotland would be exactly like Catalonia. The International Community might deplore the heavy handed Fascist doctrines of the Sovereign Authority, but in legal technicality it would be a domestic issue internal to the sovereign ruler in Spain or the UK respectively.
If Scotland, whether via referendum, I will say UDI even though it isn’t practicable, or via a Constitutional courtroom is heading towards a constitutional face off with Westminster, then unless we want the International Community to be obliged and constrained by law and convention to recognise UK sovereignty, and thereby NOT Scottish Sovereignty, then Scotland has somehow to register in the eyes and ears of the International Community that Westminster is NOT the Sovereign superior of Scotland. Scotland IS sovereign and the 300 years of professed Constitutional “oneness” of the UK has been a long standing travesty. It is the truth, but it’s also a big idea to sell to the International community.
As it stands, if Scotland has a vote tomorrow which Westminster disputes, Westminster can dismiss it, close Holyrood, and rewrite every Law in Scotland or declare them all void, and assume command over all things Scottish. Oh there’s the technical democracy of Westminster where we outnumbered 10 to 1 of course, but that’s how the faux Parliament has got away with the con for 300 years.
They could assert, as some actually have, that Scotland ceased to exist beyond 1707, and all references to Scotland’s uniqueness as a nation would simply be phantoms and spectres of a bygone era. If Westminster chose to suffocate Scotland to that extent, the International community, constrained by international law, would see the matter as an internal matter to the Sovereign UK government. They would only be able to intervene with an invitation from the UK to do so. Remember 2014 and EU opinions?
But all of this constitutional argument, every chapter and verse of it, becomes a needless and acrimonious detour which all of us can avoid by simply calling for the legal legitimacy of our Sovereignty to be recognised at the outset.
It need not be the blue touch paper for civil war in Scotland that everybody fears, for the millionth time it is NOT a UDI, but we would have a similar status to that which the Catalans are trying to give themselves; a fully sovereign Nation in waiting, able to make and honour international agreements without permission from any superior. The actual event and realisation of Independence can then be paused to allow talks, plebiscites, referenda, ratifications, leave agreements just Brexit. It becomes entirely rational and formulaic.
My frustration with the SNP strategy is that it is focussed solely on winning Independence by a democratic majority won in a straight YES / NO referendum like 2014. I can, and I do respect the motivations and intent behind that strategy, but I am infuriated that nobody will answer the question about the hole in the bottom of the boat. Suppose we win our YES majority in 2018,19,20, or whenever, but Westminster invokes Parliamentary Sovereignty to call the result irrelevant and Holyrood extinct. What do we do then? Tell me. What is plan B when the government which has cheated Scotland for 300 years cheats us again?
I understand the SNP wants to walk softly and make our Independence a consensual right of passage for the whole country, or at least 51% of the whole country, I see it, I get it, I applaud it, but when you want to walk softly in relative safety, you carry a big stick. Our sovereignty is that big stick, yet we seem determined to do this the hard way, and frankly it doesn’t make sense.
I said before, we HAVE constitutional sovereignty under Scots Law, but we DO NOT have international recognition of that constitutional sovereignty. Instead, we have a grey area of constitutional ambiguity and dispute which the Westminster Parliament exploits to the full. The whole point of my OCD about sovereignty is just to remove that grey area of ambiguity, have Scottish Sovereignty recognised as a terrestrial constitutional reality, and from that point forward we can stop Westminster’s exploitation of the constitutional muddle.
ONLY US, correction, only some of us, here in this bubble in Scotland see this constitutional grey ambiguity as relevant. Westminster brazenly acts as if it doesn’t exist, jeers whenever the issue is raised, and the International Community recognises 300 years of UK sovereignty and established UK convention, and indeed Empire, which has never constrained itself out of respect for the quaint little issue of Scottish sovereignty before.
Until tested and vindicated in law, our sovereignty is just a talisman for us. The Declaration of Arbroath is just a museum curiosity. But tested, vindicated and proven legitimate in modern law, then the World will respect the fact that Westminster does not speak for Scotland, nor can it overrule the voice of the Scottish people. Cross that definitive threshold, and you can have as many referenda and plebiscite’s as we want. But do not cross that sovereign threshold, and Westminster will pull the strings in Scotland forevermore until we do. We can have as many referenda and plebiscites as we like, but never be able to enact any of them.
Catalonia has done it backwards. Secured a majority for Independence first, but now has the problem of getting that majority recognised as sovereign so they can have a vote that counts. Scotland is setting itself up for the same problem – winning a majority then struggling to make it sovereign and binding.
It is my belief that Catalonia will very soon need to run another referendum, this time with recognised constitutional legitimacy from the outset, and then assuming they win, the International recognition will follow. Here in Scotland, just by nailing the ambiguity in who controls Scottish sovereignty, we need only vote on Independence from a tired and large defunct Treaty of Union, and it is not an issue for our “sacred” constitutional sovereignty.
The SNP can continue to govern Scotland with my full support and blessing, but the support and blessing stems from doing things right. Just as my anger is a consequence of doing things wrong. The Constitutional issue of sovereignty, in my opinion, based upon what I have seen and heard, is desperatly misunderstood and being played very badly to the point it could cost us everything, absolutely everything. I would save every one of us that heartache and trauma, that is all, and if that makes me personally unpopular and nuisance to some, then so be it.
I challenge anyone to articulate a good reason or justification for how formal recognition of Scottish Sovereignty, the inconvenient fact of its existence, not sudden creation, in any way weakens or inhibits the actions of the Scottish Government. You are acting like sheep letting your hearts rule your heads, and how many times has Scotland got a constitutional kicking for that particular National frailty down the ages?
Is there any Nation on the planet who would be as reticent as the Scots about enacting a National Sovereignty which contrary to popular opinion has never left our side? Even the US and Australia are more proud of their sovereign claim to nationhood on lands taken by force than Scotland is able to defend its own lands throughout history held in defence.
OT…CATALONIA. FULL SPEECH BY PRESIDENT OF CATALONIA LAST NIGHT.
From TV France24 with translation into English language. 🙂
Better to hear it here on France24 without the BBC Experts/Reporters/Filtration Process telling us what it all means.
We can understand the English language here in Scotland!
http://tinyurl.com/y8jcrn5h
I said before, we HAVE constitutional sovereignty under Scots Law, but we DO NOT have international recognition of that constitutional sovereignty.
Breeks that’s a lot of not much at all. OFCOURSE Scots are sovereign. This is why we were able to hold ref1 and say Yorkshire can never ever hold one at all.
Ofcourse Scotland is sovereign but we decided to vote NO, to keep the UK, and to keep SHARING our sovereignty, with the English, Welsh and NI.
When Scotland does decide to become a nation state again, Scotland will be instantly recognised as the latest of planet Earth’s familly of sovereign nations, no longer sharing it with the other lot in the UK.
And all because we are sovereign.
Its never going to happen though, without the SNP, as you guys know full well. Exact opposite in fact.
If the yoons do get back in power, they will do everything humanly possible to wipe Scotland the nation, off the face of the earth completely.
ken501
your language is out of order.
I sincerely hope the rev hammers you out of the park and away from this blog site. I dont think I am alone.
schrodingers cat says:
11 October, 2017 at 2:23 pm
ken501
your language is out of order.
Dont be such a wilting lilley SC. Politics is for grown ups and gets heated sometimes.
”Until tested and vindicated in law, our sovereignty is just a talisman for us.”
Is that what you are proposing? Nicola Sturgeon in the midst of doing the day job, dealing with Brexit and trying to drum up support for Independence should get involved in a Court case? And what if we lose? Have you considered that? Considered the consequences of then trying to get our Independence?
”Sovereignty is the distinction between a country being a country or not being a country.”
Meanwhile the Queen, Westminster, the UN and the EU (and others) are well aware of the fact that the Scottish people are sovereign and that Scotland is a country, in fact a Kingdom if the term ‘United Kingdom’ has any substance.
”As it stands, if Scotland has a vote tomorrow which Westminster disputes, Westminster can dismiss it, close Holyrood, and rewrite every Law in Scotland or declare them all void, and assume command over all things Scottish.”
Scaremongering now FGS and why compare the Scottish situation with Catalonia? Scotland was an Independent country for around a thousand years before the 1707 Treaty and the UK has no written Constitution, only a Treaty that binds. One that can be overturned if a majority of Scots vote for Independence: And that’s the CRUX of the matter … repeating … ‘a majority of sovereign Scots required to get us our Independence.’
All you’re trying to do on here is confuse people in an attempt to undermine the SNP and in doing so undermine our chances of getting our Independence. I mean to say are you trying to tell us that you know better than Nicola Sturgeon who has access to some of the most brilliant Constitutional experts in the country?
Time to give it up, get out from behind your keyboard and drum up support for Independence, IF that’s what you want, or what about applying for a job as advisor to Nicola Sturgeon. Send off your CV and let us know how you get on.
All you’re trying to do on here is confuse people in an attempt to undermine the SNP and in doing so undermine our chances of getting our Independence.
He sure is. It’s one aspect of yoon culture online today, mix and match Scots democracy with all and anything even remotely similar.
They know that most of us have no real idea what is going on in Catalonia and yoon wise, that’s great because it can then be used to monster Scotland’s progress towards nation statehood.
Rock is another chancer, trying to terrify us all with the Spanish police appalling behavior 2 weeks ago.
Can that happen here? Doesnt matter, trolls like Rock will use that highly improbable outcome in Scotland anyways.
Lovely bunch yoons online, all of which feeds into the online suspicions of the infamous clusterfuck below. If youre out there lads, youre only making this shithead UKOK zone of yours look even more ghastly.
http://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/33552/social-networks/british-army-77th-battalion-facebook.html
@Petra
And that’s the CRUX of the matter … repeating … ‘a majority of sovereign Scots required to get us our Independence.’
I agree and you have said it better than I could. No doubt “we” don’t get it yet.
Heedtracker.
If we share sovereignty, fine, we are a confederacy, but the Union does not share sovereignty, it declares UK sovereignty is unitary, and absolute. Sovereignty shared is not the same thing as sovereignty joined.
Sovereignty shared is a Union of two recognised sovereign components. Sovereignty joined is the extinction of the primary components to create a single indivisible entity.
If the Union is shared, then good. We have a bipartite Treaty between two separate sovereign entities, and Scottish sovereignty is real. If the Union is joined however, as Westminster likes us to think, then how can Scots Law properly exist independently of UK unitary sovereignty? Is Scots Law a third country all by itself? It would appear to enjoy a Sovereignty all of its own.
My whole point, the point you cannot grasp, is establishing once and for all whether of our sovereignty is shared or joined, because it cannot be both, and the distinction between the two is what the issue is about. It either destroys the concept of Scottish Sovereignty which cannot be joined, or it destroys the Act of Union which presumes two dissimilar and incompatible Constitutional sovereignties were joined to become one.
Resolution of the conundrum does not require a vote one way or the other, but requires Constitutional arbitration, a decision of which absolute circumstance is valid and competent, and which is not.
Right now, only Scotland believes UK sovereignty is shared. The UK and the International Community recognises a single, unitary, UK Sovereignty.
The Act of Union is an abstract contrivance which cannot be one thing nor can it be the other. It is a paradox which can only survive for as long as Scotland is prepared to accept it is being duped but do nothing to rock the boat.
To do that creates the present day absurdity, the living paradox of Scotland rejoicing in its popular sovereignty which it cannot weild, but which Westminster can wield at will, doesn’t even need to consult us, and can overrule Scottish “Sovereign” democracy even when it does consult us, but we Scots soldier on, believing we just need a popular referendum majority to contest the abuse of our popular sovereignty by somebody else’s Government which respects no concept of our popular sovereignty to begin with. This is a Constitutional wild goose chase.
Was it perhaps some 18th Century Ronnie Barker who wrote the UK constitution?
This issue isn’t an abstract fictional fantasy like Alice in Wonderland. This is a constitutional, territorial, and jurisdictional dispute between two historic Nations of Scotland and England, which isn’t really resolved by any act of ephemeral democracy on any given day, but requires to be resolved through constitutional arbitration to resolve the tangled fundamentals of two distinct national constitutions shoehorned into one dog’s breakfast of a Frankenstein’s Union which somehow came to life against all known constitutional logic.
All I’m saying is sort out the constitutional mess before we do anything. Let us start at the very beginning, correct what has gone wrong, and sort the UK’s Constitutional fundamentals so we can all start again on sound foundations, not merely add another layer of constitutional jelly onto a seriously fecked up trifle.
Can we not just be thorough, and get the essentials sorted? That’s it. That’s my big grievance. If we’re going to do this, do it right.
Can we not just be thorough, and get the essentials sorted? That’s it. That’s my big grievance. If we’re going to do this, do it right.
If Scotland and Scots are not sovereign Breeks, how can we have held indy ref1?
That is the fundamental issue that youre ignoring. If Scots were not sovereign we would have no right to choose, in referendums, on our country’s destiny but ofcourse we do.
That’s my point. Yes you can debate all day on what sharing sovereignty with England actually means, since 1707.
Look at like this. 5 million people in Yorkshire cannot hold a indy ref, on Yorkshire independence. Yes they are sovereign too, but unlike Scotland, Yorkshire’s not a nation state in a union.
Any simpler, it does not get. This is clearly how Catalonia is viewed by the Spanish gov, and that’s why they felt legally able to send in the riot police with full violence instruction.
A git like Rock has used the conduct of the Spanish gov and their riot cops as just another means of trying to terrify Scots away from ref2 but again, UK gov would never countenance sending in riot cops to Scotland and its all because of our national sovereignty.
Nothing in law would prevent UK gov from doing a Catalonia style riot cop action on indy ref1 Yorkshire.
Alex Clark says:
11 October, 2017 at 3:13 pm
@Petra
And that’s the CRUX of the matter … repeating … ‘a majority of sovereign Scots required to get us our Independence.’
I agree and you have said it better than I could. No doubt “we” don’t get it yet.
The Catalan’s have a majority for Independence, but no official recognition for it. I’ll leave it to you and Petra and the other SNP geniuses to explain CRUX2 to everybody who believed in CRUX1.
”All I’m saying is sort out the constitutional mess before we do anything. Let us start at the very beginning, correct what has gone wrong, and sort the UK’s Constitutional fundamentals so we can all start again on sound foundations, not merely add another layer of constitutional jelly onto a seriously fecked up trifle.”
And how long is that going to take? Years? Long enough to see us lose our chance of ever getting our Independence? Long enough for Westminster to continue to undermine Nicola Sturgeon / SNP (and her / their ability of being successful in carrying out the day job), the only party capable of getting us Independence? In other words if we see a real slump in relation to our economy, NHS, Education and so on we’ll see support for Independence diminish. But you know that don’t you.
”The Catalan’s have a majority for Independence, but no official recognition for it. I’ll leave it to you and Petra and the other SNP geniuses to explain CRUX2 to everybody who believed in CRUX1.”
Still trying to confuse everyone by comparing Scotland to Catalonia? Comparing apples with pears. We don’t even know if Catalonia has a majority for Independence at all due to the shambolic mess. How many No voters stayed away? How many people voted on more than one occasion? The fact is that polls prior to their Referendum showed that they DIDN’T have a majority of their electorate actually wanting Independence, Genius. That may change of course in future due to the Spanish Government’s horrendous behaviour.
We on the other hand have the opportunity to vote again, in a civilised fashion, and if a majority of Scots vote for Independence end of. End of your constant demand that the issue of sovereignty is the number one issue. Sovereignty, irrefutably, comes with Independence and I reckon that’ll come to pass in the very near future.
Heedtracker, you can have as many referendums as you like. One a day if it suits you. If there is no sovereignty to empower the vote, like precisely what happened with our Brexit majority, and Catalonia’s IndyRef, it is a constitutionally futile achievement.
Before asking Westminster for a Section 30 Agreement, why not also ask the UN and EU whether they will recognise the result as sovereign Scottish result, citing Scotland’s ancient and unrecognised Constitutional Sovereignty, or see it as a UK regional opinion poll citing the UK’s Internationally recognised Parliamentary Sovereignty?
David Cameron agreed to a Section 30 agreement because he reckoned there wasn’t a cat in hell’s chance of YES winning. David Cameron also agreed to a Brexit Referendum. Theresa May has already told us that now, standing on the precipice of the Brexit Abyss when every Council in Scotland voted Remain and economic ruin beckons, this is not the time for a referendum. I would guess, the automatic approval for future referenda might be more difficult.
So what will you do if Theresa May refuses a Section 30? Will the SNP will carry on regardless and allow the recognised Parliamentary Sovereignty of Westminster declare the vote unlawful and unconstitutional under the auspices of the UK’s constitution, so that we can expect Bute House to chairing Emergency talks with Jean Claude Juncker, that is to say after Holyrood is suspended… She wouldn’t dare says the SNP. Yeah, but what if she did??
I don’t understand the hostility towards having the UN and EU acknowledge there is an issue of disputed sovereignty serving as the controversial backdrop to Scotland’s next Independence referendum. To my mind it is a thoroughly sensible and realistic contingency.
Make Sovereignty a known defining issue, and suddenly it’s not about Scotland the wannabe country vs UK Sovereignty, it’s a much more even contest of Scottish Sovereignty versus UK Sovereignty in a contest of technical legitimacy. In my opinion, those are much better odds for Scotland, and furthermore, even before the result was even known, an Indy Scotland-in-waiting could be making all kinds of promissory sovereign agreements and commitments that were meaningful, if conditional on the result going the right way. If we’d done this months ago, our Scottish Government-in-waiting could have shadowed every step of the the UK Brexit negotiations with Scotland’s own Remain negotiations. Every stage would have two alternative endings, one ending for a Scotland still bound to the UK, and a Second ending for an Indy Scotland. – Preparedness.
Even if it was true that Scotland would have to make a Barosso inspired application to rejoin the EU, a quasi-sovereign-in-waiting Scotland could already have been working through the prelambles and details of that eventuality, so that if and when it happened we’d be ready, and the change would be a mere formality we could hurdle at the gallop.
To my knowledge, we’ve done none of that. We’ve been very pedestrian, offloading all the consequences of Brexit onto Westminster, and pinning our hopes on the ScotRef Emergency Break Glass Unit behind Nicola’s desk in Bute House.
The ScotRef vote is shaping up to be a simple double or quits affair, a 2014 re-run with Scotland’s sovereignty up for grabs with another possible NO vote which solves nothing, but ratifies the unconstitutional absurdity of the Act of Union… again.
Now quietly, I hope and pray that behind the headlines and on the quiet, the Scottish Government has been doing precisely that. I hope and pray the Juncker, Verhofstadt and Barnier know chapter and verse about Scotland’s sovereignty and the pivotal roll it is going to play in Brexit. But what kinda shatters that aspiration is the apparent lukewarm indifference we are showing towards our EU membership, and thereby risk capitulating our grand contest of Scottish Sovereignty versus UK Sovereignty by forfeiting our watertight legitimate constitutional grievance about Brexit, and opting for an EFTA position which actually requires Brexit to happen instead.
There is no constitutional leverage to help secure our sovereignty in us joining EFTA. It is only Brexit which creates the jeopardy, constitutional challenge, and suborned democratic mandate for Scotland to contest Westminster’s faux sovereignty. By opting for EFTA, we are effectively saying that Brexit is ok, our sovereign Remain vote doesn’t matter, and in doing that, we are pulling the rug from under our Constitutional battle for sovereignty.
It is not me who is being reckless here. I see no campaign, no preparedness, no anticipation, no planning. No contingencies. I don’t see any strategic initiative over and above perfunctory Government. It’s good, even great perfunctory Government, but it’s not (yet) making sure of winning the battle for Indy. We seem awfully content to let Westminster run it’s own show.
You folks in the SNP might be happy with that. But the only conclusion I can draw from that is that you know something I don’t.
Here’s the thing, Scotland passed over sovereignty for all new law making to the Westminster parliament when agreeing to the Act of Union.
Westminster is the ultimate sovereignty in the UK when it comes to making new laws. It is in their power to devolve areas of law to a devolved government which they also decided could exist. They can just as easily remove the power of Scotland to making new laws by abolishing the Scottish Parliament.
Scotland handed over it’s sovereignty to Westminster in perpetuity until the sovereign people of Scotland decide they want all the powers back and the treaty annulled.
That can only be achieved when the Scottish people democratically make that decision. Until such time then the treaty stands and WESTMINSTER MAKE THE LAW until we say otherwise in a referendum.
Them’s the rules Breeks, we really did give away over our sovereignty when we decided to let Westminster as the Parliament of the UK make our decisions for us from 1707 and reinforced that with a vote in 2014. You just don’t get that yet, do you?
OT
I kind of had to make that post in the defence forum about Faslane the same night to make the thing current, a couple of small mistakes in it that actually understated the case for Faslane losing no jobs or economic benefit with Indy. Mostly of course it was a genuine posting to reply to the article, but it was a bit dual purpose – an old-fahioned UseNet troll where you are fishing to catch a reply with hook and bait. Well, it worked today with a post from one of the 2 or 3 fish I had in mind, and it’s a cracker.
“What a pipped dreamland dadsarmy lives in.
There is absolutely no way any of those dreams are going to become reality.
an independent Scotland will be a basket case unfortunately, rolling up debts of £15-20 billion per year on top of ALL the costs lumped on them for independence £200-300 billion a year + a proportionate share of the UK sovereign debt. There is no way Scotland will be allowed to leave the uk without taking on responsibility for its fair share of this debt.
Faslane will close, all subs will move to Wales or south west England. All shipbuilding will go back to English yards.
good luck with all that!”
I won’t be replying. job done, but link saved and that is a thread at the right time (next year probably) I’ll be using on several of the NOes and undecideds to show what Scotland is up against 🙂
“Scotland handed over it’s sovereignty to Westminster in perpetuity until the sovereign people of Scotland decide they want all the powers back and the treaty annulled”.
Come on Alex, you’re not even trying now.
If you’re correct that Sovereignty was handed over, then it is no longer Scotland’s decision to have it back whether we have a hundred referenda or more and win every one, Westminster is Sovereign and can ignore every one of them. Independence, if ever the UK decides to give us such a thing, because it will be theirs to give, not ours to take, and will be for a new country, not the emancipation of the old one.
You also cannot follow “in perpetuity” with “until” in the same sentence, unless you mean “until the end of time”.
Thankfully you’re wrong. The fault in the UK constitution is not a shortcoming or problem with Scottish Sovereignty, which cannot properly be removed from the people of Scotland in perpetuity, but Westminster’s misappropriation of that sovereignty.
That act of misappropriation would be the very thing I would see put under the constitutional microscope.
@Breeks
Sorry not to reply to you earlier by the way, I was knackered and went back to my pit for a few hours. For me personally though the issue is over until the terms of Brexit are clear, probably about next September, and I’m 100% happy with the way things are going, and how they went at the SNP conference.
Robert Peffers,
“Are you really as bloody stupid as you seem?”
You are an aggressive verbal bully here and almost certainly a nasty person in real life.
If you are as clever as you think, why don’t you have your own site to flog your “knowledge”?
Instead of contaminating every article on someone else’s website with your verbal diarrhoea.
Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?
Robert Peffers,
“@Rock says: 10 October, 2017 at 9:23 pm:
“She means well, but Nicola has ZERO control over UK immigration policy.
As we have seen with the many deportations from Scotland.
After a “snap” Brexit, Scotland will be at the mercy of the Westminster government.”
Dear! Oh! Dear!
Are you really as bloody stupid as you seem?
Of course Nicola has no control over immigration policy. All alert readers are aware that immigration is a reserved matter.
Which is exactly the reason Nicola has instigated an SG policy that cleverly retains and encourages post Brexit EU Citizens employed by Scottish government or Scottish Local authorities, to remain in Scotland.”
“Numpties” need to understand that whether the Scottish government encourages them or not, it is Saint Theresa who will decide what rights they have to stay in the UK, including the North British region.
The right to remain in the UK and for how long will be decided by Saint Theresa, not Nicola.
You responded to my 9:23 pm comment addressed to another poster.
But you failed to respond to my 9:10 pm comment addressed to yourself because you are left speechless when your “pish” is exposed.
Rock? Fuck off, it’s not your blog either and you don’t get to keep coming on here and telling everyone else how they should conduct themselves, considering your verbal assaults on others on this site you’ve got a fucking cheek taking anyone else to task, you hypocritical little git, now fuck off and stop harassing and stalking people on this blog.
Especially…leave Robert Peffers alone, you vindictive jealous little shit.
🙂
Petra,
“If you don’t desist from contacting me I’ll email Stu and complain of online harassment.”
Unlike the likes of yourself, I don’t use this website as a chatting shop to “contact” others.
If you want to make comments here, expect them to be challenged by anyone reading them where necessary.
Or start your own blog.
@K1
I’ll second that. Back under that bridge Rock, there’s a good troll.
Hey Balboa, waddya think of this then?
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15590524.Letters__From_No_thanks_to_Yes_please_____my_journey_to_backing_Scotland/?c=gxvbmy
“Letters: From No thanks to Yes please … my journey to backing Scotland”
Good news eh, from the Independence supporting National?
Hi K1 at 8:39 pm.
I would tend to concur with your input re Rock.
He/She usually types his/her input after teatime. And it always finds something to be upset about, then spews out all the stuff that it has saved for a rainy day, quotes from everyone under the saltire and so on.
“Those days are past now…”
Gie up, Rock, you’ve been well sussed.
SHAZBOT! I’ve just fallen into Rock’s trap again! Woe is me!
Breeks @ 7.58
I know, that you know, enough to know, that Sovereignty can’t be given away in perpetuity or in anything else Breeks!
Let me tell ye so does Alex Clark!
But you are being pedantic or petulant in your assertions that he is claiming something that can’t happen.
He isn’t …he is no writing a law about it Breeks.
Mibbi he “should” have said Scotland has allowed it’s Sovereignty to be EXERCISED in a Union with England and at Westminster until Soverign Scots decide different.
But he didn’t say it that way,so what…..he wasn’t wrong!
You just for some reason seemed not to like the way he said it!
Sometimes reading something that yer trying to get her head around in a different way makes the penny drop? Aye?
Is the point no to facilitate a greater understanding of our Sovereignty?
And you a quasi champion of the very concept albeit a narrowly focused one are stamping on a conversation with someone who can clearly grasp it’s meaning.
Not a good look my friend, not a good look at all.
Alex Clark (aka Thepnr),
“I’ll second that. Back under that bridge Rock, there’s a good troll.”
Robert Peffers says (to Thepnr):
27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm
“Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”
Rock – your continual quoting of Wingers’ previous comments has now become a daily feature of WOS.
And we all have a laugh! Keep it up! It must be awful to be so unable to come up with anything original, except “NATIONAL BAD!” You must feel so emasculated.
BTW: Will we get to meet you at the WOS get-together in Dundee on 11th November? Coz all the REAL Wingers, who can be there, will be there. Will you slot it into your busy diary?
Jolly’s Hotel, Broughty Ferry, 6pm onwards. Looking forward to seeing you there.
@Liz g
You know what it’s like, you just type often without thinking when you want to make a reply and can make mistakes. Breeks was right in this case as I did make a mistake in my choice of words.
“Scotland handed over it’s sovereignty to Westminster in perpetuity until the sovereign people of Scotland decide they want all the powers back and the treaty annulled.”
I should have said unless rather than use until, I’d agree that picking out errors in grammar like this instead of dealing with the argument is being pedantic.
“Scotland handed over it’s sovereignty to Westminster in perpetuity unless the sovereign people of Scotland decide they want all the powers back and the treaty annulled.”
Sorted, though I think my meaning was clear in the first place.
So what will you do if Theresa May refuses a Section 30?
She wont Breeks.
Anyway she probably will have kicked out by ref2 anyway, retired to hubby’s giant hedge fund mountain on the south coast. Another couple of thieving tory creeps oot the way.
Chillax BreeksD
Alex Clarke @ 11.04
Aye he was right,in this instance!!
About the way you phrased stuff…..
And while words are important… We are in a conversation here.
My point was that we put all the terminology in the mix till we all know and accept what we mean,,,,well as far as we can.
Especially since …..well !!! Breeks is wrong.
Ahm away fur sum cough sweeties
..
Sigh.
When you follow “in perpetuity” with unless, or until, you reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of what the term “in perpetuity” actually means.
It isn’t being pedantic or a grammar Nazi, because the term itself is just the shorthand version of the source, the Treaty of Edinburgh 1328. Scotland “shall belong to our dearest ally and friend, the magnificent prince, Lord Robert, by God’s grace illustrious King of Scotland, and to his heirs and successors, separate in all things from the kingdom of England, whole, free, and undisturbed in perpetuity, without any kind of subjection, service, claim or demand.”
Pretty emphatic I think.
I believe the UK’s Supreme Court is even on record as recognising that “in perpetuity” should mean just that, and the SC had no power to set aside any bill, statute or act of the Parliament of Scotland where that bill expressed the clear will of the (sovereign) people of Scotland. 2011.
Why are we, the exponents of Scotland’s Independence, of all people, content to mollify the erosion and abuse of Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty by casually adding the qualifying words of “unless or until” to the great constitutional benchmarks in our properly documented history which are perfectly explicit? There was no occasion for the English dowager Queen Isabella to qualify her words in 1328.
Or would you still dismiss the fact as pedantry?
Breeks @ 7.41
Well aye Breeks I would…..
Regurgitating leagal facts doesn’t move a conversation about the concept of Sovereignty along.
The legality of Scottish Sovereignty is no in dispute!
That the power of it is used at Westminster is pretty obvious as well.
It’s the Sovereignty of the people themselves that we are trying to define….. that’s the part that’s not so easy to explain….it can mean different things to different people,and that’s the bit you don’t seem to accept.
But that’s the thing that Alex had attempted to discuss and you shut him down because you have a narrow vision of what you think you mean…..so aye you were being pedantic.
As for queen Isabella…..well monarch’s aren’t known for taking other people’s point in to account either,so who knows.
I certainly wouldn’t presume to know her mind,any more than I would presume to have the absolute definition of popular Sovereignty.
Pardon me Liz, but the “in perpetuity” of it actually was being disputed.
The definition of sovereignty is supreme power or authority; the authority of a state to govern itself or another state. I am quite sure Queen Isabella understood the concept.
For me, the fact we Scots are confused about sovereignty stems from the centuries of distortion about what the word actually means. It is a sign of the spell we remain under.
Can you imagine Queen Elizabeth “loaning” out her Sovereignty of the UK to another sovereign figurehead? King Felipe VI of Spain maybe? At least someone you might not describe as a soul mate and ally. That’s apparently what Scotland has done, but nobody can break down the a, b, c, of how Sovereignty was ever removed from the Scottish people and transposed to Westminster. The Parcel of Rogues had no constitutional platform or legitimacy to sign it away, and the English part of the Union equation had no authority to usurp it. So where is the crime scene? When did we change from a nation which cannot have its sovereignty removed in perpetuity into a nation which could? Why should we respect it? Why shouldn’t we seize every opportunity to make the Act of Union crumble to dust?
The idea of rubber band sovereignty is preposterous, but we accept the absurdity of it every day in the Union, and place nonsense ahead of the truth we choose not to see.
We cannot make a gift or a concession of our sovereignty and remain sovereign. We cannot remove sovereignty from ourselves – period, and even if we could, every newborn Scot doesn’t just get a baby box, he or she gets their share of Scottish Sovereignty. Here you go kiddo, it’s yours but it’s not.
It is myth, a lie, a deceitful instrument of the Union, to claim Scotland’s sovereignty rests in Westminster. The have no receptacle capable of containing it except clouding the perceptions of us Scots.
I got pelters for droning on saying that without sovereignty, neither Catalonia nor Scotland could expect or rely upon international recognition of their respective democratic majorities.
From a Holyrood Committee Meeting with Michel Barnier, 11th September 2017:-
“He [Ross Greer] asked Mr Barnier if he was aware that the UK was offering positions outside its own competence and what was his view of that? Mr Barnier told the Committee that he was extremely interested in this debate, but that he could not comment on internal constitutional matters…” My emphasis.
Breeks @ 10.19
Sorry for the delay…. hope you’re still around,anyhoo
RE…the “in perpetuity” bit.
The best way I can think of to demonstrate what I am getting at is.
Think of it as a Marriage!
Now everyone accepts that a marriage is ment to be forevermore……in perpetuity if ye like!
That’s the kind of language we use when discussing marriage.
And it’s not wrong, everyone knows what is meant but we also know that there is indeed a way to end it.
While I agree that Westminster try to pretend there isn’t and yes if we use words like in perpetuity we should probably always caveat it.
But in that thread and for the purpose of that particular comment it wasn’t in my view helpful to be so insistent that “in perpetuity” be defined to your interpretation of it.
Therefore I thought you were being pedantic.
……………
As for your next post about the EU.
Their response doesn’t surprise me and I would not want it any other way.
The EU is about trade agreements and when it comes to Sovereignty I want them to mind their business
And I want them to espically mind it during the run up to Indy ref 2.
The more shit they get for staying silent on Catilonia the less creditability they have if they put their nose in to our business.
@Breeks
If you really wanted to advance the cause of Independence then you’d use you obvious intelligence and skill at writing to do that.
Instead you focus on one topic only, that of sovereignty which makes you a one trick pony when it comes to comments on Wings.
Would you not agree with me that for 95% of people that means not a jot? There is plenty to discuss and debate but for you only one topic seems to matter and to be honest you’ve bored me for months with the same subject.
That’s it as for as any discourse goes with yourself, carry on regardless I know that you’ve already bored more than half that read Wings. Take it up directly with the SNP if you must, few here are listening anymore.
I have no skill in writing Alex Clark. I have commented at length for months about Sovereignty and you still do not see the wood for the trees. I give myself an F-
It is unfortunate that 95% of people do not see sovereignty as essential as I do, because independence without sovereignty is a fiction.
It’s like going to war with a gun that fires blanks. Victory is not impossible, but Lord, how we make life hard for ourselves.
Sovereignty comes when we gain our Independence. Hysteron proteron.
@ Alex Clark says at 3:24 pm …. ”Breeks …. If you really wanted to advance the cause of Independence then you’d use you obvious intelligence and skill at writing to do that. Instead you focus on one topic only, that of sovereignty which makes you a one trick pony when it comes to comments on Wings. Would you not agree with me that for 95% of people that means not a jot? There is plenty to discuss and debate but for you only one topic seems to matter and to be honest you’ve bored me for months with the same subject. That’s it as for as any discourse goes with yourself, carry on regardless I know that you’ve already bored more than half that read Wings. Take it up directly with the SNP if you must, few here are listening anymore.”
If he or she would spend as much time on the streets as he / she does on here, he say, could have converted dozens of folk by now that is if he’d dropped the ‘sovereignty obsession’ and the constant SNP Baad comments.
Other than that, the latter, he never seems to go out of his way to find ‘influential’ links to post and / or castigate the MSM or Unionist MPs. Quite telling, I’d say.
SNP Excellent.
SNP Excellent.