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The Pollyanna Problem

Posted on July 21, 2017 by

Broadly speaking, the psychological phenomenon known as the Pollyanna Principle is a tendency to neurotically see the most positive possible view of a situation. It’s not generally widely found in newspapers – for whom bad news as a rule sells much better than good news – but for some reason the Scottish press makes a uniform exception when it comes to military shipbuilding.

This, for example, is today’s Herald:

Now, in itself that headline is – unusually – true, so far as it goes. But it only takes until the first sentence of the article text before things start to fall apart.

Because the sentence “Thousands of shipyard jobs on the Clyde have been secured for the next two decades” is a complete and utter lie. So far the Scotstoun yards have a confirmed contract for just THREE Type 26 frigates, which won’t take anything like 20 years to build. In fact they’re due to be delivered in the “early 2020s”, so the job security could last as little as four years.

Anything beyond that is uncertain, as the article makes abundantly clear to readers who get beyond the first paragraph. The defence secretary, Michael Fallon, is quoted in the piece hedging his bets very evasively:

“This is the first batch of three from the contract. We will then learn more about the costs involved in the first three to be able to negotiate the next contract for the next five in stage two.”

(Our emphasis.) Quite plainly, if you haven’t yet negotiated the next contract then it isn’t “secured”. Fallon’s statement is heavy with qualifiers and disclaimers to that effect. What happens if costs spiral, as they always do in defence procurement? What if a new government takes office – whether it’s a Labour one or a Tory one with a new manifesto and new ministers with new opinions – as it must by 2022 at the latest?

And Fallon wasn’t done fudging:

“There will then be five lighter ships […] We are hoping to announce our shipbuilding strategy as to how the Type 31s will be built. You will recall the carriers were built in blocks around the country in different yards and who is able to bid for that we will be announcing that shortly.”

(Our emphases again.) That’s quite obviously anything BUT a guarantee of job security for the Clyde yards. In fact, it appears to be an explicit suggestion that they might well NOT get the work for the five smaller Type 31 ships that are set to replace the other five Type 26s the Clyde was promised during the indyref campaign.

The Daily Mail was even more explicit, noting that:

“But with another five Type 26 vessels to be built in Glasgow, as well as the possibility of a further five lighter frigates, Sir Michael refused to say if the work could be withdrawn from Scotland if there was a second independence referendum.”

(Our emphases once more.)

So let’s be clear on what we’ve learned:

– There will definitely be THREE Type 26 frigates built on the Clyde, out of the 13 that were solemnly promised during the indyref. They’ll secure work at the yards for 4-5 years, not 20.

– But that’s the ONLY solid commitment. The next five, we’ve just been expressly and unambiguously told by the Defence Secretary, are yet to be negotiated and may be lost if there’s a second referendum, or for any number of other reasons.

– And the five lesser ships are only a “possibility”, subject not only to the above and the general uncertainties of the future but to a very real and openly-stated chance that they could be awarded to other yards outside Scotland.

Yet the Scottish press has now run the same Pollyanna story about how everything’s rosy by the riverside “for decades” twice in the space of less than three weeks.

And the tireless foghorns of the Union, staggeringly, are going even further, bizarrely insisting that there will now be MORE ships than were ever pledged:

This of course isn’t remotely true on any level. Scotland wasn’t promised “13 ships”, it was promised specifically 13 Type 26s, not a maximum of eight Type 26s plus a vague possibility of five smaller, cheaper vessels sometime in the future.

And the OPVs were never part of the deal. They were moved to Scotland in late 2013 only because BAE closed the Portsmouth yard where they’d been being built, and the No campaign was still promising 13 Type 26s on the Clyde AFTER that.

McDougall, of course, doggedly persisted with the lie:

But if you actually click his link, you’re in for a series of nasty surprises:

Despite what the Scottish press says, even Fallon doesn’t claim that “thousands” of jobs on the Clyde will be protected for decades. He says that “hundreds” of BAE jobs in Govan will be safe, and thousands of others in the “UK” and “across Britain”.

And once again he emphasises that no deal has yet been done for anything beyond the first three frigates, with the second five Type 26s only an expectation and the Type 31s not mentioned at all:

When criticised for its endless diet of “SNP BAD” stories taking the worst possible spin on any situation, the media huffily retorts that its job is to hold governments to account and challenge them on their PR lines. And that’s a fair enough point. Yet here we find ourselves in a situation where all of Scotland’s newspapers aren’t just unquestioningly reporting the UK government’s blah, but massively amplifying and exaggerating it.

Don’t get us wrong, it’s always nice to have a bit of variation. But it’s curious that the benefit of the doubt – to put it mildly – is only ever extended in one direction.

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  1. 21 07 17 12:56

    The Pollyanna Problem | speymouth

68 to “The Pollyanna Problem”

  1. donald anderson says:

    Up the Separatists!

  2. Fishy says:

    They won’t all be built here that’s for sure. First rule of procurement order as many as you can to secure and control costs for the whole project especially with a commodity such as steel…..

  3. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Thousands of jobs secured according to britnat lie-sheets like the Herald, but the stark reality is its only 1700 jobs.

  4. Grouse Beater says:

    The British press, tutored in extoling all things British, is addicted to lying, it has to, to camouflage unpalatable truths, even those newspapers that call themselves liberal.

  5. Bruce L says:

    Essential further reading for anyone remotely interested in UK defence procurement is Lewis Page’s ‘Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs’. It’s a bit out of date now, but he has said that he plans to write another. It’s a real eye-opener; even more so when you take into account the bilge the rest of the press comes out with, perfectly illustrated by the henious examples above.

  6. dandy dons 1903 says:

    1700 jobs on the Clyde.

  7. handclapping says:

    And even curiouser there was no reporting of the men paid off when HMS QE2 left Rosyth. But there will be when the Queensferry Crossing opens 🙁

  8. Proud Cybernat says:

    The BritNats bigging up this story in order to play the “You’ll lose 18 ships” card come IndyRef2.

    Which, as we know, is utter pish. Anyway – indy Scotland will need its own navy – and those contracts WILL be guranteed.

    Yuppfurrit Govan boys?

  9. Capella says:

    Obviously the Westminster gov need a Project Fear threat in hand for a referendum after the BREXIT deal is clear. Vote for the Union or we’ll build the frigates in S Korea.
    Add the expansion of RAF at Lossiemouth to that blackmail letter.
    Better Together SLab will be delighted.

  10. dandy dons 1903 says:

    More threats from the westminster britnat mafia and the complicit lie sheets who parrot their untruths, really shouldnt cut any ice with any one here. We see them for the gangsters what they are. Are you listening Fallon?

  11. Brian Powell says:

    Looking forward to Blair showing us the contract.

  12. Cactus says:

    If any of the readers here are office based in Scotstoun’s shipyards… ye could always print off a few copies of this article, dish them out or fire them up on yer canteen noticeboards. Many buy the gutter daily rags, your colleagues need to know.

    Just scroll up to the first comment, click on the Print / PDF button (it’s green) and there you go.

    Six pages of power.

    When’s lunch?

  13. dandy dons 1903 says:

    All this broken union has left is threats/blackmail/intimidation etc, shame on those who prop it up and take glee from Scotland being treated as second class passengers on this doomed ship led by britnats of all colours and brexiteer loonies heading for the iceberg at a rate of knots.

  14. Proud Cybernat says:

    For IndyRef2, the ScoTGov needs to be much clearer about the armed forces Indy Scotland will need – Army, Navy, Air Force – and a proposal for indy Government stating precisely what contracts they will be placing for military hardware – planes, ships etc. Pull the rug right out from under the feet of the BritNats.

  15. Itchybiscuit says:

    I live directly across from the Fairfields ‘back wall’ and I can hear the banging and clanging sometimes well past midnight. They’ve just fitted a metal ‘cap’ along the top of the wall – I don’t know why, it doesn’t make it look any better. Maybe they’re beefing up security and this is the first phase before they heap on the barbed wire and watch towers?

    Anyhoo, my point is they’re busy little bees right now – long may it last but I’m not holding my breath…

  16. colin alexander says:

    UK National Shipbuilding Strategy when Googled says it will be published in Spring 2017.

    I can’t find it. Anyone else found it?

  17. Valerie says:

    Yuck, always loathsome seeing an alleged Slabber lying and defending even more loathsome Tory like Fallon.

    @Capella, I’m sure you’re right, the 5 will be held hostage as blackmail material, or, I could see them being dangled as bait for a trade deal.

    Scottish DM reporting that there is no more direct line communications to be had between May and Sturgeon, apparently the hard Right are raging that May came up to Scotland to see Nicola, because it made Sturgeon look like ‘an international dignitary’.

    So that’s another benefit of this ‘precious Union’, being shat on repeatedly.

    So, so sick of it just now. Feels like a tortured limbo.

  18. msean says:

    The UK plan is,I’m sure,to keep the rest of Scotland in fear of losing shipbuilding,using it as a political weapon.

  19. Geronimo says:

    The sooner we are Independent the better…..none of this unionist claptrap….I remember Project Fear at Indy 1 and the headlines of MSM …the threats….intimidation etc on the Clyde then virtually the big damp squib. You were warned

  20. stewartb says:

    Having seen the ‘carrot and stick’ strategy work regarding shipbuilding on the Clyde in IndyRef1 – i.e. look at all the goodies we’ll gift to you with a ‘no’ vote and look at all that we’ll deprive you of with a ‘yes’ vote – the terms of this announcement make perfect sense from a British Nationalist perspective.

    ‘Big up’ what is being given and at the same time deflect and confuse over any actual shortfall with respect to the previous commitments that were made to influence voting in Indyref1. And of course, SNP/pro-indy politicians can now really only make welcoming statements in response to this announcement, thus reinforcing the ‘UK is good for Scotland’ framing that, with the media’s complicity, the UK government has successfully engineered.

    All this has the key added benefit of ensuring that the threat/promise regarding further MoD contracts for the Clyde can again be rolled out when Idyyref2 comes around. Why give all that was promised away in one go? Better to drip feed and continue to keep these ‘dependent’ Scots in thrall.

  21. Tatu3 says:

    The Scottish government should visit the Scottish shipbuilding yards and discuss the building of Scottish navy ships, ferries and fishing boats, all needed in an independent Scotland. And have this visit sooner rather than later?

    And talking of ferries maybe scotland should be looking to use renewable energy to power the ferries as per Norway?–/Ampere-the-worlds-first-electric-ferry-/

  22. David says:

    When scotland gets independence we can build merchant ships again to our hearts delight and compete with any other country in that market, most of the clyde shipbuilding or whats left of it, is working under the official secrets act, how depressing is that statement to anyone who has seen what the clyde used to be like, employing 10s of thousands of men and supporting their families through the generations, the tories have a lot to answer for !

  23. Proud Cybernat says:

    So, on IndyRef2 the ScotGov says, “We’ll see your 18 ships [no laughing at the back there] and raise you another 4. That okay with you, Govan?”

    “Oh and we’ll also invest and diversify into a sustainable, non-military ship-building, rig-building industry – just like Norway has.”

    Being dependent on scraps is never good for anyone let alone an entire country.

    Scrap the BritNat scraps.

  24. shug says:

    I am sorry but if the union s and workers accept this position they deserve to lose their jobs
    Westminster has made monkeys of them so many times

  25. Andy-B says:

    What’s new, the British government and its ever obedient press telling lies and duping Scots as usual.

    Surely Scotland’s position in this lie of a union is unique in the world. I mean there can’t be another nation out there in a union that would take this kind shit, as meekly as we do.

    The unionist press will continue to roll out these BS stories year in and year out. Knowing a fair percentage of Scots are big enough suckers to buy into it.

    The games rigged the house always wins, we’re going nowhere fast.

  26. PhilM says:

    Paul Dacre on the line:
    What’s wrong with you woolly-headed ginger fried-mars-bar munching losers?
    You should celebrate what you’re given. Be happy and stop complaining or we’ll have to…

  27. TheWasp says:

    Cybernat @ 2.30

    Great point well made. The progressive alternatives must be mentioned at every opportunity

  28. Proud Cybernat says:


    According to the BritNat press, Mayhem has effectively barred Scotland’s FM from ever meeting her again. Mayhem has delegated this role to Scotland’s Colonial Governor General, Mundell. So, if Nicola wants to speak to Mayhem about something, she now has to go through Mundell and cannot go directly to Mayhem.

    Things heating up just nicely, me thinks.

  29. sinky says:

    Is the once responsible Herald is sub edited by Brit Nat sub editors based in Cardiff

  30. Robert Graham says:

    OH i f/n give up yet more total rubbish for the gullible fools we are surrounded by ,When oh when are people here going to get it, The tories or any UK government have never followed through with any promise ever made , the most to be expected is a very grudging half hearted bit by bit trying to wrench something from their bony hands as if their very life depended on making sure we beg for everything , Hows your scabby Union doing Kezia ? is it just fine and to your liking ? you seem to be very happy with the scraps the SNP have so far managed to wrench from these lying b/trs grasp .
    Well listen up dear ,a whole lot of people are sick fed up with the LIES , so just for once try and defend scotlands interests .

  31. Scott says:

    I noted that BBC Scotland stated that the first steel being cut was from Motherwell very good but I thought the bulk of the steel was coming from Sweden if true why no mention of that and will Jackie Bailey be complaining as she did over why China steel for the new bridge and not Scotland steel.

  32. Macart says:

    Be more honest if they said ‘you’re only as safe as your next contract’. Or mibbies ‘Vote my way, you get to keep your job… until the next time’.

    Labour, apologists for the Westminster system of abuse for over four decades.

    Of course it may be worthwhile for what’s left of Clyde shipbuilding to consider, that they could vote to build and maintain Scotland’s own naval protection. It may also be worthwhile their remembering just what the Clyde used to produce for the world and who oversaw the decline of that production.

    How many times should you place your trust in those who serially abuse that trust? What does it take to break a cycle of such abuse? Right now it’s carrot and stick at the same time. Blackmail and bribery by any other name. Half arsed blackmail and bribery at that.

    We’re better than that and we’ve earned better.

  33. Bob Mack says:

    I do not think it will take too long before the Pollyana principle gives way to Voltaires Candide. Optimism is a fragile thing at the best of times, relying as it often does on another party fulfilling promises made.

    The Scottish public are in this case, relying on some of the biggest liars in the world. Good luck. You are going to need it.

  34. jim-b says:

    how unproductive!! how do the management on the clyde take it .they again have to wait while their future is decided by the corrupt Westminster crowd. The Management and the unions if they had any guts would tell Westminster we are off to build ships for new customers and when you decide to place your order we might have to put you on hold!.Get off your knees Shipbuilders!!!

  35. McDuff says:

    Until the rev`s brilliant articles can be delivered to the masses the MSM `s poisonous dross and lies will continue to be absorbed by a gullable public.

  36. Az says:

    Must be tough, continually trying to prove you didn’t lie, by continuing and extending the lie. Blair McDougall, the quizmaster’s tractor.

  37. Richard McHarg says:

    Apart from the obvious nonsense from the Unionists, it’s galling that our nation is being held back by bribery and blackmail for the sake of a few hundred shipyard jobs. It’s exactly the same principle that Jackie Baillie uses to defend the Union and, thus, protect her seat. Embarrassing that folk fall for this pish.

  38. Brian Powell says:

    In Fife there were 30,000 miners and 15,000 shipyard workers.

    Until the aircraft carriers were finished there remained 1500 shipyard workers, and of course there are no miners. Responsibility for shutting the mines is shared between Tories and Labour.

    During the run up to the Referendum Ian Davidson, Labour MP in Glasgow, was trying to get a clause put into the procurement contracts for naval ships being built on the Clyde which would stop them being built if Scotland voted for Independence.

    His constituents and their futures were irrelevant to him. He represented the British Labour party and Westminster only.

    (And it should be noted that the Labour Council for Aberdeen took out enormous loans but put in the contract that the loans would have to be repaid within 3months if Scotland became Independent.)

    If workers on the Clyde and Labour voters in Scotland think Labour would look out for them they can see how little they matter to Labour politicians in Scotland.

  39. geeo says:


    In the unlikely event this is true…(FM banned from seeing TM)

    The FM should flat refuse to meet mundell and ESPECIALLY that unelected rejected cunt.
    Please note however,

    1. Daily Mail story.

    2. No official statement on public record.

    3. Un named tory minister.

    Highly unlikely to be true, more like a Daily Mail wishlist.

  40. Sandy says:

    HMS QE 11 still broken-down in Invergordon. Many of the crew making an ass of themselves ashore & many confined to said ship for their own safety. Apparently arrogant ignorance does not go down too well in the Highlands, especially amongst young ladies, from male adolescents still learning to shave properly.

  41. clipper says:

    Sorry O/T but I don’t really care. Fed up coming on here and getting depressed by all the whining and moaning btl about the big nasty msm and “oh dear what can we possibly do, we’ll never beat it”

    SERIES OF FULL PAGE ADS (possibly in the mercenary and not quite so ideologically driven Scottish Sun)

    Using talented copywriters who actually understand the case for indy and know how to use mass psychology and emotion (both positive and negative) to get the facts in the public’s face.

    The No campaign has never stopped while the Yes campaign is non-existent, virtually anyway. It’s a fucking disgrace.

    Yet all I’ve heard recently with regard to countering unionist propaganda is that inform-scotland or somebody wants to set up yet another obscure online platform which will be “monitoring” the bbc, I’m sure the bbc are quaking in their boots at the prospect of something that no one outside of the Yes bubble will ever know or see anything about.

  42. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Its basically the westminster/british establishment using the shipbuilders/companies/union reps as pawns for bribery to be used against Scottish Independence+Scottish Government. Here you thick jocks have another scrap from our table and dont forget to keep bending the knee. Time we stand on our own two feet away from the perfidious ones.

  43. Proud Cybernat says:

    “The FM should flat refuse to meet mundell…”

    And, of course, Mayhem will no longer be meeting with Northern Ireland’s FM Foster.


  44. galamcennalath says:

    It’s all Yin and Yan, spiritual and physical balance in their universe.

    For every SNPBad story, there needs to be an equal and opposite UKOKGood one.

    Well, that’s how balance works on planet Yoon.

  45. Proud Cybernat says:


    Since the UK PM is ALSO the de-facto First Minister of England, the devolved administrations should be demanding that these two roles be split because it means the people of England do not have the equivalent of a First Minister to consider only English issues with the current setup meaning the PM is often distracted from that duty.

    Also, the devolved administrations have a PM who can, at any time, be distracted from the role of PM to attend to English-only issues.

    The roles should be split and then the four First Ministers of the UK can address the PM only with regards to reserved matters which is all that the PM would then be responsible for.

  46. Proud Cybernat says:

    Scotland’s ship builders – you deserve better than this…

  47. Rock says:

    Did the “independence supporting” The National put the record straight?

    Truth Always.

  48. Dan Huil says:

    We must continue to boycott the britnat media. Slowly, surely, because of boycotts and sites like WOS, the britnat media’s influence is waning.

    The Rev is right to point out blatant britnat propaganda, and right to set the record straight, because new viewers are constantly logging onto WOS and other pro-indy sites for the very first time.

    It may be old news to us seasoned wingers but to some it is a new revelatory experience.

    Keep up the brilliant work, Rev.

  49. Hamish100 says:

    Unionist trade unionists area risk to our jobs in Scotland just as our right wing fishing leaders are also a risk to fishing jobs to England.

    When will some folk recognise that we cannot trust the Tories

  50. Donald says:

    Warships are only useful for blowing things up and killing people. If we don’t want to blow anything up. (and I hope we don’t) Then we might as well send the workers to the chocolate teapot factory to find jobs.

  51. heedtracker says:

    Truth Always.

    Bolox Always.

    If this level of beeb gimp propaganda’s getting to you, do something. The best thing to do is get down to your local SNP branch.

    In his farewell speech to America, Pres Obama said, if youre hacked off the way things are, stop arguing with strangers on the web, go out and actually talk to people.

    Its fun to bitch on WoS btl about BBC Scotland shyters or a big fat slob like Bliar in leafy southside Glasgow trying to find gainful employment but what good does it do ranting away at the SNP, as some of the WoS commentariat like to do.

    Our democracy has been stolen by tory shitheads, aided and abetted by their high paid liggers, who made this for us, to explain the how and why they are just such a bunch of ball aching spivs well past their time, like Ligger Neil for example, Rupert Murdoch’s fav UKOK running dog lackie.

    Published on 20 Jul 2017
    Professional commentators should have fixed terms – maybe then they would stop getting it wrong, says Naomi Klein in our latest ViewsNight. Naomi is the author of the recent book No is Not Enough.”

    And cue the twit with his acres of btl Scottish Sovereignty in the UK blah blah bleh:D

  52. Scotrock says:

    Clipper 4:10 pm

    Brilliant. 10/10 my thoughts exactly. Lets start being positive and proactive. not reactive to the MSM bull

  53. ian murray says:

    When the UK leaves the EU will that not result in more container ships being required ( longer supply lines to Argentina for bully beef, lamb from New Zealand etc) Can we build those in Scotland ?
    When Brexit effects hit, Westminster will need the magic money tree again and that will also likely reduce or eliminate any new war ships being built.

  54. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Agreed @Proud Cybernat says at 12:47 pm

    “indy Scotland will need its own navy – and those contracts WILL be guaranteed.”

    and again 2:30pm

    “Oh and we’ll also invest and diversify into a sustainable, non-military ship-building, rig-building industry – just like Norway has.”

    We are geographically important:

    Also having a neighbour with a 3rd World Economy, food and energy security issues means iScotland will require a decent amount of Fisheries Protection Vessels and Customs Cutters.

    That’s on top of National Naval Defence and island life line ferries needing built.

    Scottish Ship/Rig/Wind Turbine Building in conjunction with a revitalised Scots steel industry, which has a historical legacy to flaunt globally (just like whisky does so well) maybe could have a future.

    Scottish Phoenix Rising 🙂

  55. Fran says:

    @ Scott 3.18

    Bet they never mentioned that if it weren’t for the SG there would be no steel from Motherwell

  56. heedtracker says:

    Had to happen sooner rather than later. Hootsman’s “new approach” must have been fun for those tories to cook up.

    Nicola Sturgeon will no longer be granted personal meetings with the Prime Minister as part of a Conservative bid to downgrade the status of the office of First Minister.

    The new approach means the SNP leader will instead be referred to Scottish Secretary David Mundell as Theresa May’s team believe “he is at the same level as her”.

  57. HandandShrimp says:

    To be fair to Blair he works on the premise that if the Tories say something then it must be true.

  58. Morgatron says:

    Perhaps HMS Fat boy is one of these frigates? Obviously the tuba is his funnel. He is a useless waste of space and thats a lot of space.

  59. Artyhetty says:

    The tactic of holding Scotland to ransome, even now, and warships are just the tip o the iceberg! Better all vote tory, or labour, and definitely drop the idea of indepependence then. Not!

  60. Artyhetty says:

    Damn typos, indepependence, blimey.

  61. Black Douglas says:

    The Damocles destroyers.

  62. Dr Jim says:

    And with steel from oh! the SNP saved Dalziell yard in Motherwell that’s lucky eh
    Mibbees the Inglind government might have thought of that coming in handy for their 3 wee boats instead of the evil SNP

  63. Contrary says:

    Rev, can I be critical of your use of the Polyanna Priciple? From the link you give, wiki says it is a tendency to see memories in a positive light (sort of), but you are using it here to imply it means putting a positive spin on future events,,, doesn’t quite work for me as an analogy – BUT, it does not take anything away from the article. I heard on the radio the other day: ‘EIGHT frigates,, blah blah,,,echo echo,,, EIGHT frigates blah blah echo EIGHT,,,’ ad nauseum. (My hearing isn’t that good). I knew it was a lie so didn’t even bother to look it up, so it is very interesting to see how it was reported.

    The positive spin is only put on ‘good’ things our imperial masters have done for us, so we must be grateful. It is a boon to be part of a union that does so many,,,, oh wait,,, many? Is this the ONLY positive spin report the newspapers have had for 50 years? Ah well, one good deed deserves another, let’s give them all our oil for such a generous gesture,,, oh, they’ve already taken that,,, em, well, guess we’ll just have to hand over all our taxes and take nothing in return. Yes, I feel so much better that my taxes are getting spent on overpriced HS2 that will benefit southern England and that lovely overpriced foreign owned nuclear power station so that people will be allowed to pay double the energy bills and will cost even more to clean up after its short life, when we are being awarded such a great boon of three fucking frigates that will barely sustain a depleted ship building industry, it is indeed such good news to lighten my heart. I do hope they cut all our subsidies and hand outs in return for such good and generous governance.

    Struggling a bit with the positivity there.

    I don’t read many newspapers as a rule, but am I right in thinking devolved matters are always reported in a negative manner (when good or bad news) or not reported at all (when good news), and reserved matters are reported in a positive manner (when barely neutral or good news) or not reported at all (when bad news for Scotland)? So, we could just count up all the positive spin stories to see how often Scotland benefits from being in the union, perhaps,,, ah, ‘hardly ever’.

  64. George says:

    Ah, I despair. We can legitimately pick gaping holes for eternity but it changes nothing. The only people who read and understand these undoubtedly worthy articles already know and understand the corrupt nature of the Union and it’s enthralled and complicit media. It’s depressingly sad but WOS and others are an echo chamber.The people who NEED to read this won’t. Not one single unionist will read this and have a Damascean experience. We – Indy supporters – need to do something else. I don’t know what, but something else.

  65. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Ah, I despair. We can legitimately pick gaping holes for eternity but it changes nothing. The only people who read and understand these undoubtedly worthy articles already know and understand the corrupt nature of the Union and it’s enthralled and complicit media. It’s depressingly sad but WOS and others are an echo chamber.The people who NEED to read this won’t. Not one single unionist will read this and have a Damascean experience. We – Indy supporters – need to do something else. I don’t know what, but something else.”

    That’s the spirit, George!

  66. Muscleguy says:


    BAE systems which own the Scotstoun yard are a large UK company with plant and workers all over the place. When I worked at NIMR, London we played cricket against BAE Systems Borehamwood.

    So the bosses of Scotstoun have to weigh up possible blowback from UKGov over all their other contracts with them.

    That will be less of a problem after Independence.

  67. yesindyref2 says:

    And on top of all that there’s the Parker Review of naval shipbuilding. Note this:

    focus on apprenticeships and jobs

    yet the unions are complaining there’s no apprentices being taken on on the Clyde, wit apprentices being its future. In addition maybe half the workers are down in Barrow helping out on the Astutes.

    I personally think that regardless of Indy and another Indy Ref, the UK is either going to spread naval shipbuilding over the UK as Parker wants, or outsource abroad – just as it is with planes, tanks, other army kit, and of course, helicopters. For cost reasons – the MOD is, frankly my dear, bust.

    Add to that the T31s are already out to tender to two companies – BAE but also Babcock.

  68. yesindyref2 says:

    So yeah, keep your eye on that shipbuilding strategy. Chances are the whole thing will blow up in the faces of the Unionists with their “it’s not just 13 warships, it’s 18 now” as far as that goes as well. The T31s are only being assembled here according to “promises”, blocks built around the UK, and at that only if it’s BaE who do the contract, which I thnk is becomng unlikely.

    As well as the OPVs being built, not to “save jobs” as the Unionists claim, but strictly in the terms of the 2009 TOBA between the MOD and BaE where if BaE aren’t building on the Clyde, they get paid fat wads of money to do nothing – hence the OPVs as a filler as the T26 is late with design problems.

    But the 15 year BaE TOBA runs out in 2024, after that it’s open season for the MOD they can build anything with whomsoever they like, and wherever they like.

    Add to that the OPVs are 2,000 tonnes, compared to the T26 at 7,000 tonnes – you could say 3 OPVs per frigate. So 5 OPVs = 2 T26. Plus the 3 ordered = 5 FE (frigate equivalent), not 13. Then if the 5 further T26 get built on the Clyde, that’s a total equivalent of 10 T26, not 13.

    Fallon and his Unionist cohort speaketh with forked Mundells.

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