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Wings Over Scotland

Then and now, part 99

Posted on November 23, 2015 by

On the left, the Daily Record two years ago.


On the right, the Daily Record today.

November 2013:

“Workers at the Clyde and Scotstoun yards were thrown a lifeline by Tory Defence Secretary Philip Hammond with the assurance that they are due to get work building the next generation of Royal Navy Type 26 Global Combat Ships.

But the order for 13 Type 26 vessels will not be placed until after the September 2014 referendum on independence.

If that results in separation Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael said there would be no chance of the order being placed in Scotland. Carmichael went further than Hammond who said it was ‘premature’ to predict what would happen because the Type 26 orders will not be placed until late 2014 at the earliest.

But Nicola Sturgeon warned that Scotland’s shipbuilding industry cannot survive if it continues to rely on military contracts. The Deputy First Minister insisted the Govan and Scotstoun yards must “diversify” into commercial contracts to secure their long-term future.

Sturgeon, who represents Govan at Holyrood, suggested that even if there is a No vote next year workers could not rely on defence contracts to keep them in work.

Sources close to the SNP minister warned increased UK Government spending on renewing the Trident nuclear deterrent means there will inevitably be less money for warships in the years to come.”

November 2015:

“Three thousand jobs in Clyde shipyards are put at risk as an MOD defence review is expected to cancel orders for Type 26 ships. Shipbuilding on the Clyde is set to be the big loser in the defence review unveiled today as David Cameron announces he is cancelling orders for five frigates.

Further comment from us seems superfluous. Readers can look at the evidence and decide for themselves whether Alistair Carmichael and the Daily Record, or Nicola Sturgeon, was telling them the truth.

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186 to “Then and now, part 99”

  1. Scotland being asset stripped, once again. The question is, how much will be left by the time we gain independence?

  2. Sassenach says:

    How could Scots have been so gullible in the referendum vote? I despair.

  3. Lanarkist says:

    Purely on track record I would dismiss self confessed liar Carmichael!

    The Record through printing the Vow and claiming multiple times that it has been delivered also can be dismissed as fabricators of the highest order!

    That just leaves Nicola Sturgeon.

    I cannot think of any obvious lies, half truths or obfuscations of the top of my head so I will go for that option thanks!


  4. Hamish McTavish says:

    Ah, but wait a minute, we’re getting a squadron of foreign built (and probably, operated) maritime reconnaissance aircraft to be based a Lossie. Surely that’s a nice bit of tit for tat.

    PLUS, were getting even more of those superb F35s from the US of A ( ) to make our (first) aircraft carrier so much more potent than anyone else’s (except the US of A’s). And another hundred or more to add to our joint strike capability.

    We must all bow down and be grateful.

  5. steveasaneilean says:

    Well, the DR never tells the truth and Carmichael is a self-confessed liar so it’s not a very difficult question to answer is it?

  6. call me dave says:

    We see no ships!

    Surely their doing it on purpose this asset stripping and creating a wasteland. You NO’s must realise that only independence is the option you were getting lied to all the time.

    Hey! More coming along the line soon.

    SNP x2

  7. Macart says:

    Scotland’s Chumpion have any job losses on THEIR conscience.

    To coin a popular phrase, ‘don’t blame me, I voted YES’.

  8. Capella says:

    Well Osborne has just announced an additional 24 F35 jets have to be afforded. War Against Terror. American arms dealers (Lockheed Martin) have been lobbying again I suppose.

    Anyone remember the War Against Want?

  9. galamcennalath says:

    Aye, Carmichael or Sturgeon, whose word do you trust? The contrast could hardly be greater.

    This isn’t what most NO voters thought they were voting for, I’m certain. We really don’t have a clear view of what they did think they were voting for!

    However, in some ways the detail is becoming irrelevant because.

    ALL the negative things NO voters we told would happen with YES, are actually happening after a NO win.

    And, whatever positive they were told or assumed would happen with a NO win, simply isn’t going to happen.

    Ironic, that in little over a year it is now obvious that it is NO voters who are being let down most, it seems. Still, slowly but surely they must be coming to that conclusion themselves without us rubbing their noses in the dirty of their making.

  10. scottieDog says:

    Remember being at polling station near a certain fife dockyard on indyref day. An angry lady came up to me saying her job was going if it was a YES. I asked her who she trusted the most?

  11. Tony Little says:

    The latest in a long list of “before and afters” that should leave Voters in no doubt about the truth of the respective Independence campaigns.

    So I ask in all seriousness; WHY is support for Independence still hovering around 50/52% and not already in the 60s%. What else do people have to know before they change their minds about who is best placed to look after Scotland’s interests?

  12. mogabee says:

    November 2013…Daily Record…good Tories.

    November 2015…Daily Record…bad Tories.

    I have got that right Daily Record, haven’t I?

  13. Marie Clark says:

    Well it’s quite obvious who was telling the truth, nae doot aboot it. It’s oor ain wee Nicola.

    Just shows, Carmichael telling lies, who would have thought it.

    I despair sometimes of my fellow countrymen who were either conned, or just walk about with their eyes shut. I’m all right, so what’s the problem.

    Will they ever wake up I wonder?

  14. Peter Sneddon says:

    Great news! They are getting the boot in with alacrity which tells me THEY KNOW IT’S DONE.

  15. Fran says:

    The chickens are fair coming home to roost noo

  16. The Man in the Jar says:

    Shakes head and sighs!

    Come on unionists fecking wake up. It is hard to admit that you were wrong but how much more of this shit will it take?

  17. Kennedy says:

    Why do people buy that rag???

    Seriously why???

    I despair at the gulibility of my country folk.

    Politicians lie! Corporate media lie! It is proved time and time again. This is not mistakes. This is blatant lies.

    Wise up people. Take control.

    We are sovereign. We just need numbers.

  18. heedtracker says:

    So will reality make much difference to OO members? As they marched alongside The Guardian UKOK tubthumper crew.

    Takes you back. Progressive liberal UKOK marches alongside OO, isn’t something you’d normally expect but its UKOK all the way, to the dole office.

  19. Lesley-Anne says:


    Yet ANOTHER (YAWN!) Westminster LIE comes to fruition.

    Now if only there had been someone around before the referendum who could have warned us all about the likelihood of job losses … oh wait a minute … there was!

  20. galamcennalath says:

    Tony Little says:

    “The latest in a long list of “before and afters” ”

    The Blue Book of Before and After?

  21. willie says:

    Oh we do like to get a humping,

    It’s an old song and the ship workers on the Clyde just got a royal one at that. Telt that a Yes vote would secure orders and jobs the hapless workers have now been cruelly castadrift without a paddle.

    Humped and humped again. You couldn’t make it up.A double humping for the Clyde – a hump fest in fact.

  22. Ken500 says:

    They were told Vote NO. You get nothing

    The 75% Tory Tax on Oil sector is costing thousands of jobs in Scotland and putting up the balance of payment deficit. The Tories have ruined the Scottish Oil sector, the supply chain and the Scottish economy. They are delusional, dangerous liars.

  23. Capella says:

    Apologies, it’s actually 138 F-35 jets we have to pay for.

    “Those will be the first tranche of a total order of 138 of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II jets, a spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said. Britain had not previously confirmed how many it planned to order or a time scale, but the spokesman said the 24 marked a “substantial acceleration”.

  24. willie says:

    In case you missed the point of my earlier post can it be noted that I am of the opinion that the Clyde ship workers are getting a right royal humping.

    Wouldn’t want anyone to miss that opinion. Better Together think we not.

  25. faolie says:

    @Tony Little: The latest in a long list of “before and afters” that should leave Voters in no doubt about the truth of the respective Independence campaigns.

    It’s a good point that. We could do with that list, i.e. No campaign promises that have been broken or, more likely, No campaign warnings that, if we voted Yes such and such would/wouldn’t happen, are now showing to have been false.

  26. Doug says:

    Hi Stu

    Would it be feasible to create a new section to update the ‘Fearwatch’ section to look at the things that were THREATENED as a consequence of Yes and match them with what DID happen with a No?

  27. Ken500 says:

    The addition jets are on the never, never. Tick Westminster can’t affird them. They will increase the debt. Osbourne kills and starves the vulnerable to death. Osbourne ia a greedy lying coward. a dangerous liar.

  28. Doug Daniel says:

    Yet again, we see that Project Fear was simply taking decisions that were going to be made under the union, and telling us they would happen if we voted for independence instead. You have to hand it to them, it was a bold gambit. And thanks to the media’s lack of scrutiny over what a No vote would really mean, they got away with it.

    If we’d voted Yes, those shipbuilders would have a future making ships for the Scottish Navy to look forward to. As it is, this is yet another bunch of workers told their livelihoods were safe under the union, who are now being chucked on the scrapheap by the UK Government, with the Scottish Government no doubt expected to clean up the mess.

    Still, people don’t like being lied to. Folk will hopefully remember this. And it’s kinda difficult to use someone’s job as a threat a second time when you’ve already taken it away.

  29. Auld Rock says:

    I’m just waiting to see how Jackie B uses her wonderous mathematical skills to turn this one round.

    Auld Rock

  30. One_Scot says:

    I can recall a previous poster listing some excellent ‘Then and Now’ facts which when read one after the other definitely had an eye opening impact.

    I believe it would be good as was also previously suggested that prior to any Scottish election or Referendum, a List of these ‘Then and Now’ facts should be sent to every home in Scotland.

    That way people can go and vote knowing full well that unionist parties only ever offer ‘fool’s gold’, and no one can say they weren’t warned.

  31. ArtyHetty says:

    Not just asset stripping Scotland but ruining lives at the same time and of course when people lose their jobs they have to go looking for work elsewhere, so ukok are also making sure our workforce have to leave their own country for work as they have done for a long time.

    That is what I don’t get, most of the no voters I know have grown up kids who have had to leave Scotland for jobs. It is like they are proud of this, you hear, well she/he is living in the states now, or London, as if it’s a good thing. In huge numbers it is not a good thing.

    They also forget (conveniently) that their kids were not left with huge debts via tuition fees, as they themselves had free degrees too. My no voting friends complained recently that if the people wishing to join the police force do have to do a degree for it, they would be ‘left with a huge amount of debt’. Didn’t like it one bit when I pointed out that it would not be so huge because they do not pay tuition fees in Scotland.

    Ok I want a big poster for my window now, with some stats on jobs being lost, Longannet being closed and money being siphoned of from our charities via the lotto etc, all being implemented by ukok, with a ‘don’t blame me I voted YES’ on it as well.

    Sick of these no voting idiots with their self congratulatory airs about them. Gits. Notice that word, tory again, it crops up alot, even in territory, always fascinates me. Hope I have the spelling right!

    Just read about Syria last night and all that oil in the Golan heights, interesting indeed. So glad we don’t have any oil, or gold, blah!

  32. J Galt says:

    Nicola should nationalise the Scotstoun and Govan Yards (in my fanatasy world I’d prefer downright confiscation at gunpoint but I can only dream!) and hand them to Jim McColl in order to start building useful things like car ferries.

  33. gillie says:

    Should we sympathise with the ship workers who voted NO and now will lose their jobs???????

    Not really a case of ‘told you so’, more like ‘you feckin idiots’.

  34. Sinky says:

    Tony Little says

    Unfortunately the utter hypocrisy will not resonate with voters as our supine media corps will never remind Labour / Tory / Lib Dem spokespeople of the threats to jobs made before last September if we had the audacity to vote Yes to self determination.

  35. John Reid says:

    Never mind the MOD will be able to bomb our home grown terrorists in Oxford Street, silly b******s.

  36. galamcennalath says:

    The Unionist would not seem to be in a stronger position. Certainly, not as strong a position as they thought they were in on the 19th Sept 2014! However, they still seem to be embarking on Project Hammer the Scots.

    I can only put it down to short term thinking because at this moment in time, IndyRef2 is over the horizon and out of sight. They are, however IMO, enthusiastically sowing the seeds of defeat! This is an interesting appraisal of the situation Unionists find themselves in …

    “I pity the people charged with running the next No campaign, because they will be unable to say that (a) the Scottish devolution settlement is good, or (b) there will be a further settlement if you vote No”

  37. Breastplate says:

    C’mon guys, you’ve got to feel sorry for the simple minded Nawbags.
    Their world is crashing down around them but the good thing is that they will catch on eventually, some quicker than others.
    Indyref2 in 2018 should sort everything out.

  38. Macca73 says:

    These need to form the basis of the second indyref blue book. We need to include the NO voters by showing what they were told was a lie first time around.

    There’s going to be a lot of anger very soon from those who voted for a NO vote. We need to show some sort of compassion here I feel because these people are losing their jobs at the end of the day and while they might have believed in YES they voted no to keep those 3 square meals on the table. Time to show each and every one of them that there’s a better way. NOT BETTER TOGETHER!

  39. Macandroid says:

    I am raging – – again.

  40. The Man in the Jar says:

    Ach well at least at the next independence referendum (at this rate sooner than later) the “Yes” campaign wont need to send representatives to the TV debates and interviews. All they will need to do is send along a droid that every time a unionist speaks the droid repeats “Aye that’s what you said the last time!”

  41. Lesley-Anne says:

    I have to admit Hamish that after reading the article about the F35 vs F16 it beggars belief that the UK government would want to touch the F35B with an exceedingly long barge pole. Oh wait a minute we are talking about Broon the Loon and Dave “call me Pinky” Hambone here aren’t we so NOTHING surprises me here.

    If my memory serves me right here the current approach regarding the F35 is something akin to the approach the Americans had with the F4 Phantom in Vietnam. As I recall the F4 first entered service without a gun for close in dog fighting cause they thought all airborne fighting would be long range. They very quickly adapted a gun for the F4 … NUFF SAID! It appears that the same or similar mistake is being made again with the F35. Don’t these folks EVER learn?

  42. Jimbo says:

    Maybe they need the money they’re saving on the frigates to buy the 138 F-35B warplanes at a cost of one quarter of a billion dollars – each.

  43. Murray McCallum says:

    The Daily Record willingly took on the role of messanger for the UK Establishment. They received awards for it.

    They are an integral part of these lies.

  44. Jimbo says:

    How they must have watched in envy as the French aircraft carrier sailed off last week with a full complement of war planes. The Westminster warmongers must have thought: ‘We need a penis like that’.

  45. Capella says:

    @ Doug Daniel
    Project Fear was simply taking decisions that were going to be made under the union, and telling us they would happen if we voted for independence instead.

    This is what I think happened. The UK had lot of austerity plans in the pipeline. If we had voted YES, the job losses would be trumpeted as a result of a YES vote.

    Independence was not scheduled until March 2016. So Corporate Media headlines would be screaming “We Told You So” every day in an effort to change the result.

    Since we voted NO, they think it’s safe to go ahead and the media will gloss over it or seek to blame Nicola Sturgeon. Ruining the Scottish economy and removing institutions such as the tax centres will help prevent another attempt at Independence as it did in Quebec.

  46. Lesley-Anne says:

    Jimbo says:
    23 November, 2015 at 11:04 am

    How they must have watched in envy as the French aircraft carrier sailed off last week with a full complement of war planes. The Westminster warmongers must have thought: ‘We need a penis like that’.

    If my memory serves me right here Jimbo the aircraft on board the French aircraft carrier are Rafale’s. I only make mention of this because back in the early days when the U.K., and others, were trying to decide which form their next generation aircraft was to take France, part of the them working group, wanted a dual purpose aircraft, land based and carrier borne.

    Unfortunately no one else wanted the same configurations as the French so they went their own way and they now have had Rafales flying from airfields and carriers for quite a few years I believe. The Rafale went into service a few years ahead of the Typhoon. So if the French, on their own can come up with a dual purpose aircraft it beggars belief that the Americans can have so much trouble. Mind you a lot of their problems, not all but a lot, come from the fact that Broon signed off on 2 aircraft carriers WITHOUT catapult systems built into the design.

    Even if a catapult system is never used it is always better to have one on board, in my view, cause it widens the availability of your carrier to other forces.

  47. Bill McLean says:

    To those who believe that the unionists will not be able to use the same lies again – think on what you are writing and thinking. Like those who believe in FFA/Devo-Max, this point of view, that somehow Westminster will behave honourably, is admirable, but ultimately naive as it is contrary to Westminster behaviour since it was founded!

  48. Murray McCallum says:

    Yup, mess + anger!

  49. Macart says:

    The Scottish electorate have been the victims of fraud pure and simple.

    They were told to expect certain things as a result of voting for a particular result. They have received the polar opposite. In fact the list of polar opposites is now becoming embarrassingly long. The most spectacular fails reserved for those who were promised job security in return for siding with the Westminster system of government.

    Leaving aside for a moment a Scotland bill that bears absolutely no resemblance to ‘home rule’ or ‘near federalism’. Oil and gas, steel, HMRC and now a threat to ship building, all core industries to Scotland’s economy, all were sworn to be safe under the stewardship of a UK government.

    The HMG/BT lied, its that simple. To retain geography, access to resource and tax base, they would promise anything and ultimately deliver nothing. Nothing but misery and disappointment.

    To folk who voted no. We can reverse this, but the longer we wait, the harder it will become. We can’t do this on our own, we need your numbers to make the difference.

  50. Breastplate says:

    Indyref2 will sort everything out.
    2018 is good for me.

  51. Edward says:

    I’ve noticed that the media are trying to placate Scot’s by saying that the new maritime recon aircraft will be based in Lossiemouth instead of Lincolnshire

    So yet another US made purchase (from Boeing), to add to the US made F38 and US made Trident replacement systems with money that we just don’t have.

    The Americans must love the stupidity of Westminster, all the way to the bank!

    We already have the Airbus A330 Voyager on PFI (the large profits for which go to private contractors)

    I wonder what else is being procured under PFI, perhaps a FOI request should be sent to the MOD PFI Unit

    How do we compare with the likes of France?
    Most of everything they have or use is French built, so keep all the tax money within the country, unlike the UK, who just loves to buy American with money it doesn’t have

  52. HandandShrimp says:

    Better Together liars strike again. So sodding predictable too.

    There soon won’t be a surface fleet worthy of the name. The White Paper proposal to build 6 ships for a Scottish navy now look as good as anything Westminster were offering (and if the yards were building type 26s for Scotland I couldn’t see BAE cost effectively opening another yard to build a few ships for the UK.)

    We drew the short straw with a No vote.

  53. Karmanaur says:

    We need a new section in the WBB for Indyref 2 which lists all the lies put out by the unionist parties and their press, “what they said/what they actually did” so they wont be able to treat Scottish workers with such contempt the next time round.

    Scotland’s champion. FFS.

  54. galamcennalath says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    “Even if a catapult system is never used it is always better to have one on board, in my view, cause it widens the availability of your carrier to other force”

    Indeed. The Charles de Gaulle is capable of launching US F18s if necessary because it shares the same catapult system as US carriers.

    In classic BritNat style Broon et al wanted to go off and do their own thing.

  55. Ken500 says:

    Westminster uses the French aircraft carriers under EU legislation. Shared Defence costs. The UK/US and French illegal Wars are wasting £Billion of taxpayers money.

  56. heedtracker says:

    Nothing reported in any UKOK broadsheet, as usual. Rancid The Graun just their usual creepy trolling

    Top 10 Scottish children’s books quotes
    To celebrate Book Week Scotland, we have inspirational quotes from Scottish authors including JK Rowling, JM Barrie, Debi Gliori and Elizabeth Laird

    Rowling’s probably the most English kids author ever, paid a million quid to BetterTogether, detests Scotland actually running Scotland etc

  57. I watched a documentary not long ago on the building of these mega cruise liners. They kept 600 welders in work never mind all the other fabrication, project management and support staff. All high-tech, specialised jobs with nice pay packets that could be spent in the local economy. In Finland.

    Meanwhile over here we bow and scrape to our Westminster masters for some scraps from the MOD table with absolutely no thought given to going out and getting our share of what the global industry wants and needs. When did we become like this?

    I really despair.

    Back in the 80’s one of my colleagues (an SNP activist) on our shop stewards’ committee told me Scotland needed another 20 years of Thatcher whipping us like a cowed animal as that’s what it would take to wake folk up. I know now what he meant. 🙁

  58. Ken500 says:

    Wasting £Billion on illegal wars and starving and killing the vulnerable at home and abroad.

  59. Dan Huil says:

    Labour in Scotland loves doing the Tories’ dirty work; the they complain about being tricked by the Tories when the truth comes out. Labour in Scotland: stupid as well as deceitful.

  60. Janet says:

    What about those Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker vessels that are being procured from that corner of the United Kingdom…called Republic of Korea!

    Can’t build for Royal Navy outside of UK, they said. And to think that PR China can procure second hand aircraft carriers for its navy…

  61. Clydebuilt says:

    Capella @10.21am

    “Anyone remember the war against want?”

    Aye that was the REFERENDUM

  62. Ken500 says:

    It is incredible that those who lived under the Thatcher regime voted NO.

    Tax raising powers and other powers are the best and most significant thing to happen in Scotland for the last 300 years. Now Scotland can get back at Tory/Unionist for their lies and criminality.

    Vote every Unionist politician out in Scotland.

  63. Helpmaboab says:

    I think I’ll retrieve and share an image of the notorious “Separation Shuts Shipyards” leaflet circulated by Labour’s Ian Davidson MP. (Who now, too late, far too late, is just Ian Davidson Esq.)

  64. Valerie says:


    The question must be whether this country will be a wasteland by the time we achieve independence. Like others, I’m wondering why we are not making at least 60% in the polls.

    In other news, Putin in Tehran today, following productive talks between diplomats. Putin will discuss trade, military and Daesh.

    Can folk try and use the term Daesh,please? You will notice Salmond uses it all the time. The reason is, the group hates the term, they think IS confers more importance. Daesh sounds like other words they don’t like implying chaos etc

  65. broonpot says:

    Have the Lib Dems been asked or have they offered any comment on this? Nope!

    Carmichael still hiding. Pathetic

  66. call me dave says:

    Been out shopping and find lots of Scottish mushrooms on the shelf.

    They thrive on dark condition and being covered in stuff and easy to buy…Oh wait!…Lots of NO mushrooms in Scotland too!

    Has anyone made up a ‘before and after’ bingo board yet.

    Time for Sturgeon to quietly speak to the Scottish people but she only gets to be on ‘Desert Island Discs’.

    Not fit for BBC or STV as it will be the wrong message.

    SNP x2

  67. Luigi says:

    There has been a distinct lack of good news since 2014. Surely even the staunch NO voters have noticed?. 🙁

    Can anyone tell me if there has been anything positive at all, any government announcement of good news related directly to the NO vote last year? One little piece of union dividend?. 🙁

    Apart from the wonderful Scotland Bill of course, which may be delivered one day:

    Holyrood: the most powerful devolved parliament in the world……………………….. with no feckin teeth!. 🙁

  68. Legerwood says:

    Apparently Mr Cameron will announce an increase in the cost of Trident when he gives the details of the Strategic Defence Review. I think I read it in the National today.

    The cost increase is in the region of £12 billion.

    I wonder where they will find that money?

  69. Clydebuilt says:

    Aye Yessers are pulling their hair as the truth of the NO vote emerges. Look at what these NO voters have done to Scotland…….

    Just about now some of the NO’s are starting to think!


    From now on the road to Indy will involve pain……

    But don’t worry, our Tory masters are only too happy to oblige.

  70. Graf Midgehunter says:

    All this is doing is adding munition to the YES cause. 🙂

    As a proposal for the new generation of WBB-2 I think it might be a good idea to split the book into zwo parts.

    First part: a look-back/review at what the No side promised or “vowed” would happen and what in reality has happened in the meamtime since Ref-1/GE-15. E.g. the shipyards/F-26 etc.

    This would make a nice list of arguments for the boots on the ground out campagning.

    Second part: the SE16 future Manifesto with hard hitting, solid facts about what is possible and planned and certainly LESS pandering to WM in the hope that they’ll be nice partners and negotiate fairly. E.g NO common currency, Trident, Navy, shared Instutions etc.

    Full independence with 100% total Scottish oversight.

  71. galamcennalath says:

    macart says

    “To folk who voted no. We can reverse this, but the longer we wait, the harder it will become. We can’t do this on our own, we need your numbers to make the difference.”

    Yes, IndyRef2 needs converted No voters.

    To the half of No voters who say they are open to persuasion and not diehard BritNat, I would say … You will get a second chance, but hurry up and open your eyes to what is happening and make the jump!

  72. Craig P says:

    Sassenach says:

    23 November, 2015 at 10:15 am
    How could Scots have been so gullible in the referendum vote? I despair.

    It’s a mystery. These sort of things were going to happen whether or not there is a union of parliaments – shipbuilding contracts being cancelled, banks shifting HQs, the price of oil changing, interest rates and the value of the pound going up or down, risks to the values of property and pensions.

    I could never understand why people couldn’t get their heads round that. All we were voting on was whether we wanted more or less control over reacting to these events. I suspect for many No voters there was an additional, mystical ‘strength’ benefit in the percieved deep pockets of the union. (Deep pockets that are illusory, being sunk in debt and required to fund eleven times Scotland’s population plus a voracious banking class.)

    I await the next devaluation of UK pensions with a grim sense of inevitability.

  73. heedtracker says:

    I wonder where they will find that money?

    They take it from their overall defence budget forecasts and sell it as merely a small percentage, over the lifetime costs of Trident 2. That makes it look VFM affordable, UKOK punches people above its weight, britannia rules the waves, until they do actually use it on say Argentina or St Petersburg or Moscow or, or aliens maybe.

    For Scotland, its sold as 15,000 to 19,000 jobs provider in Argyle.

    You swallow their UKOK bullshit, you makes your UKOK choice.

    Scottish democracy is probably not the only nascent democracy with nukes pointed directly at it, as in, UKOK nukes keep you safe, UKOK nukes give you jobs, vote UKOK or lose it all.

    How frightfully British.

  74. Jack Murphy says:

    BBC Scotchland leads with the Lossiemouth aircraft news:-
    Clyde losses tucked away in the text. 🙁

  75. Petra says:

    I don’t really like castigating no voters at all because they were, in the main, duped by the Media, in particular the Daily Record. In relation to the case of UK shipbuilding contracts by Jim Murphy / the DR and on YouTube.

    However this morning I’m just asking myself if the penny is beginning to drop for any of these glaikit eejits or are they now saying ‘just goes to show we were right voting no because we are too stupid to run this poor wee country right enough …… ”Nae ile noo, nae joabs in Isil is oot tae git us”.

    The Tories with their austerity measures, picking off our jobs one by one (thousands), Trident renewal and dragging us into another War, maybe a World War, backed by the Labour Party is just what we all expected to happen.

    When are they all going to waken up? When their kids are sent off to fight Daesh and don’t return home?

    It’s time for Slab supporters and their Party in fact to do a U-turn and support Independence.

  76. Jack Murphy says:

    BBC Scotchland leading with Lossiemouth news and then :-
    “But there is also expected to be a cut in orders for Type 26 frigates from 13 to 8.” 🙁

  77. Truth says:

    Sigh, I wondered when this one would raise its head.

    It’s counterproductive to call no voters stupid etc, but they really can’t say they weren’t warned.

    They fell for the “I’m doing OK out of the UK” and believed all the scare stories about independence.

    They couldn’t see the track record of the UK. In shipbuilding alone the Clyde has lost 30,000 jobs since the 1970’s. Meanwhile countries like Norway and Finland (or should I have said countries like us?) have build up shipbuilding industries supporting 40-50 yards each and churning out 80 vessels each a year. Of course they don’t build bloody warships.

    The no voters have thrown our country to the dogs. If they were honest with themselves they probably did it for selfish reasons. The sad thing is they’d probably it again.

    How about proving me wrong next time?

  78. gus1940 says:

    Re today’s announcement of an increase of orders for F35s -are they all F35Bs or are some As for the RAF?

    Would it not be best if they were all F35Cs capable of both Land and Cat & Trap equipped carrier operation.

    The RAF’s F4s had hooks.

    Is it too late to scalp the 2 white elephant carriers and retrospectively convert them to cat & trap capability? That option might in the end be cheaper than operating and maintaining both B & CorA versions. It is also common knowledge that the B version has inferior combat performance compared with the A & C versions.

    This would enable them to handle French Naval Rafales and USN F18s and F35Cs not forgetting the A/S, Airborne Early Warning and Carrier Onboard Delivery aircraft operated by the USN.

    My opinion is that the decision not to cat & trap the carriers was one of the daftest ever in the field of UK Defence.

    Whatever happened to the plan to share use of the carriers with the French which would ahve required C?

  79. Wulls says:

    utterly appalling.
    I’m beginning to wonder if there is anyone left in Scotland that believes a word Westminster says.
    Still…….wait until STV news report it.
    Del Rashid will somehow make it the SNPs fault.

  80. Glesca Keelie says:

    I remember we went to a door canvassing before the ref, not too far from the yard, and were told they were voting NO, because he “built ships”.

    We were “metaphoricaly” spat on, standing outside the yard, being brushed aside, when trying to give out leaflets for a meeting that afternoon about yard prospects.

    I thought at the time, well F*** you, you deserve anything coming down the line, remember their stewards and their pronouncements at the time. Good wee labour aparachniks.

    And I still do.

  81. Capella says:

    The BBC ARE covering the 138 F-35 jets purchase. Cutting edge investigative journalism here on the cost of the helmets

    “the helmets alone for which cost over £263,000 ($400,000).”
    Jonathan Beale tries one on

  82. Socrates MacSporran says:

    May I add my voice to those suggesting a WBB2, with a section outlining those things we were promised and have not received since the 55 voted No. Also, all the things we were assured would happen if we had voted Yes, but, which have happened anyway. It just might make enough of the No voters change their minds.

    I have changed lap tops in the past year and cannot now get some stuff out of my old lap top, mainly downloads from the web. There was a very good Peter Arnott polemic in Bella, on 8 July, last year, which, when looked at today came across as a wonderful example of BT lies. I can also think of a post I copied, from the Scotsman I think, in early 2014, which outlined several examples of Tory lies which had already been exposed – but still, 55 sold us down the river. Sad.

  83. Lesley-Anne says:

    galamcennalath says:
    23 November, 2015 at 11:28 am

    Lesley-Anne says:

    “Even if a catapult system is never used it is always better to have one on board, in my view, cause it widens the availability of your carrier to other force”

    Indeed. The Charles de Gaulle is capable of launching US F18s if necessary because it shares the same catapult system as US carriers.

    In classic BritNat style Broon et al wanted to go off and do their own thing.

    Aye well galamcennalath Broon the Loon always DID know best didn’t he?

    Oh wait a minute he DIDN’T! 😀

    Just a wee aside here folks.

    As always whenever we see/hear the media raising their arms in faux shock at job losses we must always remember to ask what is it they are trying to hide with this. In this case might I suggest this? 😉

    Just so we are clear here, the Dassault Breguet Atlantic 2 that has been used first flew in 1961 and went into service in 1965. The aircraft we used to have, before Dave “call me Pinky” Hambone got his hands on the cutting shears, called the Nimrod first flew in 1967 with an introduction into service in 1969.

    Now remind me folks which aircraft is STILL flying these days? 😉

    Apparently we are now going to be flying Boeing P8 Poseidons out of Lossiemouth. I would NOT hold my breath though cause I don’t think we’ll be seeing any of the 9 P8’s in R.A.F. colours for quite a few years as Boeing have recently received a $1.49 Billion contract for 9 P8’s for the U.S. Navy and 4 P8’s for the RAAF. Delivery of the Australian P8’s begins in 2016. I would not expect to see the first U.K. P8 in service until 2018(ish) at the earliest. At best we may see a couple of U.S. marked P8’s flying out of Lossie until such times ax the R.A.F. has a P8 in service.

  84. Bill Fraser says:

    How can there be any doubt.It’s a case of the perennial liars Carmichael and the Daily Liar Record against a genuine Scot with her country’s future well- being at heart

  85. Chic McGregor says:

    Decoy Scotland.

  86. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “We need a new section in the WBB for Indyref 2 which lists all the lies put out by the unionist parties and their press, “what they said/what they actually did””

    Very much part of the plan 🙂

  87. Lesley-Anne says:

    gus1940 says:
    23 November, 2015 at 12:17 pm

    Re today’s announcement of an increase of orders for F35s -are they all F35Bs or are some As for the RAF?

    Would it not be best if they were all F35Cs capable of both Land and Cat & Trap equipped carrier operation.

    The RAF’s F4s had hooks.

    As far as I can tell Gus they will all be F35B’s.

    Like most “normal” people you have spotted the fly in the ointment of Broon the Lonn’s decision about building the two flat tops. He decided NOT to have catapult systems installed. Later, when he was kicked oot of Downing street and Dave “call me Pinky” Hambone moved in, Pinky decided to have catapults installed. Unfortunately to do so would prove too expensive as the major design work had been completed and it would have required moving a lot of kit around etc. Needless to say Hambone then decided to revert to NO catapults!

    If my memory serves me right the R.A.F. F4’s were ex U.S.N. aircraft that had been re-engined with Rolls Royce engines but they kept the tail hooks. If the aircraft have problems when landing the airfields have a trap system they can engage that could be caught by the F4 tail hooks.

    In fact if my brain cell can remain awake for a few seconds more I believe that the Tornadoes in service with R.A.F. also have tail hooks for the very same reason. 😉

  88. Luigi says:

    Many soft NO voters didn’t reckon on a majority Tory government in 2015. Well they are back big time now, possibly for a decade, and if any NO voters thought the Tories would reward them for saving the union, look at what they have done to Labour and the LibDems, their erstwhile BT partners. It’s a very painful lesson indeed. We are all suffering now, but at least 45% of us can hold our heads high, and say that we were bold enough to dream of something better.

  89. Foonurt says:

    Warpships, warplanes, tanks, bombs, guns and bullets. And fuckin AK-47s like a badge of honour.

    Wurr planet iz arsed, in awe thoan arses think aboot, iz mair ah thurr military might.

    Nichola Sturgeon bae thoan expanding universe.

  90. r esquierdo says:

    During the independence campaign. I kept repeating the same line on this site . How do you educate the uneducated?

    Only self interested bigots or fools would have voted no. I split that 55% evenly between bigots and fools. Scotland will never achieve any higher than 62% for a yes vote it is relatively easy to arrive at that figure.

  91. Bob Mack says:

    I voted YES to save Scotland this misery. People voted NO to prevent Scotland enduring this misery.

    It is simply a question of “who was right ?”.

    Do you have the courage to change your mind?

  92. Richardinho says:

    I think it’s very important to nail down what was said and by whom before the referendum. I was trying to find out exactly what was actually promised about the Barnett formula yesterday.

    If you are going to call people liars (and I think that they are liars) then you have to be able to demonstrate where they have told lies.

  93. galamcennalath says:

    Luigi says:

    “Many soft NO voters didn’t reckon on a majority Tory government in 2015”

    The CorpMedia and BBC reduced much of the Indy debate to personalities and party politics. It was probably because that was all they knew about. Of course for most of us on the Yes side it was a cause above all that.

    One effect, I believe, was that a lot of traditional voters saw IndyRef1 as a vote for or against Alex Salmond and the SNP. They didn’t think far enough to appreciate the obvious – that it was Edinburgh rule versus London rule, and Edin rule might mean SNP while London rule meant Tory rule with certainty!

    Similarly, reducing it all to party politics meant some Labour voters believed Scotland would be fine in the Union when Labour won the GE.

    I doubt if the media did all this intentionally – it seems far too sophisticated! However, by treating it all in simple terms, many voters were lulled into see it so. [Sigh needed here.]

    It is high time they all started to smell the shite and change their minds, though!

  94. Chic McGregor says:

    “Can anyone tell me if there has been anything positive at all, any government announcement of good news related directly to the NO vote last year? One little piece of union dividend?”

    Brit Bull gave us Wings.

  95. Jock Ledug says:

    The Australian’s new Helicopter landing ship, HMAS Adelaide, is based on a Spanish design. The hull and all the steel work was completed in Spain and then the finishing and electronics was done in BEA System’s yard in Victoria.

    BEA Systems were exploring the opportunities for cooperation on the Type 26 boats with India. What are the chances that future ships don’t get built on the Clyde but in an Indian shipyard and that shell is all fitted out in Portsmouth. The Clyde yards are hung out to dry.

  96. X_Sticks says:


    “Indyref2 will sort everything out. 2018 is good for me.”

    Nope, Bp, won’t do at all. My passport is due for renewal in 2017 and I DON’T want a british one.

  97. call me dave says:

    BBC Scotland’s Jackie Absurd on soon, she’ll be trying to put a good slant on the latest defence fiasco.

    Maybe the ex MPs Davidson and Curran or maybe the present MSP Baillie will be edging into the screen to keep us all on song about shipbuilding orders.

    Keia might even write another letter to CMD about it. Aye right!

    Still waiting on the BBC getting an SNP person on in an interview to express our thanks to the UKOK, as another cut weakens Scotland.

  98. Truth says:

    @Chic McGregor

    “Brit Bull gave us Wings.”

    That is outstanding. Take a bow sir.

  99. AndyH says:

    @ Chic McGregor

    Erm, the oil value has dropped causing job losses etc.

    Must be good new because they seem really happy about it and keep cheering and stuff…

  100. KennyG says:

    If you really wanted to try and save jobs you’d at least try and come to a compromise, say half, or maybe even 3 or 4 ships. Which would still represent a significant saving whilst minimising job losses.

    If, on the other hand, you were just a bastard and wanted to destroy the whole industry, you’d do it this way. Nothing.

    Those no voters who work at the shipyards, in the steel industry and HMRC must be sick to their stomachs right now, and this is still only 2015.

    Imagine what Scotland will be like by 2020.

  101. Sharny Dubs says:

    Should rechristen them the Daily Carmichael, and Alistair Record

  102. Scots Wa Hey says:

    Sent the following information to Yes last year last HMS bought from Norway While its a a icebreaker as a HMS its a warship regardless the RFAs are armed with missiles and anti aircraft defence radars built in Korea. The design work is being given to Australia all this was there and in public domain Yes did not fight or use

  103. Karmanaut says:

    Nice one. I’m looking forward to raising cash for and helping to distribute WBB2.

  104. gus1940 says:


    Re British F4s:

    There were 3 types of F4s in RAF service:-

    Spey engined ones inherited form The RN when the Eagle & Ark Royal were scrapped.
    Spey engined ones bought directlyfor The RAF.
    Surplus US ones with original US engines to replace aircraft lost through the usual attrition.

    RE Maritime Patrol Aircraft and the obvious long delay before the P8s can be delivered a quick Google of ‘Davis Monthan Air Base’ will show dozens of surplus mothballed US Naby P3 Orions which could be acquired and made ready for service relatively quickly and a damn sight cheaper than buying P8s.

  105. yesindyref2 says:

    One of the reasons for expecting the order to be for 8 Type 26 is that there are 8 T23s with the kit ready to transfer to the new T26s. Unless the SDSR has specifically stated otherwise, it doesn’t mean the other 5 might not be ordered later – 2020 or so.

    Though this is the first actual order, the propulsion systems (from memory) were already ordered for 3 of them back in the Spring, so this confirms those 3, and adds 5 – much as expected. BAE wanted a full order rather than bit by bit, well, they’re not getting that.

    If, however, the 5 T26s are actually being cancelled and the remaining T23 come to the end of their life (perhaps hull life) in the 2030s I think, it really does leave the RN short of escorts. Currently just 19, and “running hot” during Iraq / Afghanistan / Libya, bringing that down to 14 would be disastrous, particularly with 2 huge carriers to be protected. The RN needs more escorts, not less.

    I can’t see it myself.

  106. Valerie says:

    On the question of where are they getting the money, of 12 billion for increase in hardware.

    Just 2 things on BBC.

    Committee for selling Eurostar, as I understand it, it’s one of the few success stories making a profit.

    On the Andra show, Joco had a chat about some highly lucrative property the govt OWNS, and is selling off. In plain speak, assets that belong to the public based in London, and around the country are being sold, Admiralty Arch, hospital in Dulwich etc.

    Revolting stuff.

  107. Sassenach says:

    Good to hear Stu has ‘plans’ for a new WBB with listed facts about ‘promises’ made/delivered (or Not!).

    But won’t it surely need a different title – “Bloody Huge Blue Book”.

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    The 2 QE carriers can take a total of 36 jets each I think, though in peacetime they’d normally take 12, so 24 is the bare 12 squadron for each – by 2023. But they can also take helicopters, Merlin and such like, can take allied aircraft if suitable (no cats and traps as Lesley-Anne points out). They can also of course take each others planes in case of need. So I guess 24 F35-B is enough, though I have my doubts if the F35 will ever be really any good.

    9 P8s, well, I liked the Nimrod MRA4.

    2 rapid strike brigades to be ready to strike ISIS in 2025. Ummmm.

  109. Lesley-Anne says:

    Of course you are right Gus about the F4’s. I knew the R.A.F. had acquired the R.N. ones as well as having their own Spey engined ones. If I remember correctly the Spey engined F4’s actually had better performance than their U.S. equivalent.

    To be honest I am surprised, nay even astonished, that in this age of austerity that the Hambone and co. did not think of acquiring some second hand P7’s. Let’s face it Hambone and co. are all about saving money immaterial as to whether what they get for their reduced buck actually does anyone any good.

    I’m not having a go at the P7’s by the way they are a good aircraft. 😉

  110. heedtracker says:

    Blue toryboy UKOK unionists say shadap, its all fine, Independence is the lie or,

    Can’t beat some Bettertogether kevrage, for that unionist NOT blatant, shameless fraud perspective.

    Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 4h4 hours ago
    In a rational world, SNP support would now plummet as voters are shown that their indyref economic case was a blatant, shameless fraud.

    UKOK, for toryboys.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh yes, and the extra Typhoons appear to be the Tranche 1 ones the RAF were going to withdraw from service this year. Tranche1 can only be used for Paveway 1 I think, whereas T2 or T3 can be fitted for cruise missiles etc. I guess they’ll keep the T1s for QRA. Don’t think there’s a problem with that.

  112. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    23 November, 2015 at 2:12 pm
    The 2 QE carriers can take a total of 36 jets each I think, though in peacetime they’d normally take 12, so 24 is the bare 12 squadron for each – by 2023.

    So no UK fighters or bombers for the 2 £6+bn Navy carriers, squaring up/punching above our weight with say

    Wiki says, In 2012, the Russian Air Force was made up of:

    38 fighter squadrons (7 operating MiG-29s, one operating the MiG-29S, 2 operating the MiG-29SMT, 7 operating the MiG-31, one operating the MiG-31B, 4 operating the MiG-31BM, 7 operating the Su-27P, 8 operating the Su-27SM, 1 operating the Su-27SM3 and Su-30M2, 1 operating the Su-35S, 1 operating the Su-30SM)
    15 bomber squadrons (9 operating the Su-24M, 2 operating the Su-24M2, 4 operating the Su-34)
    14 assault squadrons (10 operating the Su-25, 4 operating the Su-25SM)
    9 intelligence squadrons (operating the Su-24MR, and various UAVs)
    13 training and testbed squadrons

  113. Sooz says:

    Just more proof that the unionists were planning all these shut downs, cuts and decimations of our country anyway. They figured that if we did gain our independence, all these devastations would be blamed on the yes campaign and specifically on the SNP, and if we voted No, well who cares anyway they were never going to be keeping a single promise they made.

    That was their strategy. Cynical, duplicitous, cruel. That, brothers and sisters, is the Union.

  114. Lesley-Anne says:

    I’m with you yesindyref2 regarding the Nimrod. To be honest as I never actually saw the MRA4 fly I can’t comment on that particular version. However from the few pictures I saw it did not look too different from the last one in service MRA3 I think. 😉

    The one concern I did have about the Nimrod was that it might have been reaching the limit of the airframe capacity, in terms of what could be fitted internally inside the fuselage. I had a concern that any future “development” of the Nimrod A.S.W. aircraft could lead to a repeat of the disaster that was the Nimrod A.E.W.

    In my view the Nimrod A.E.W. programme was joke from start to finish, not that G.E.C. were concerned, they were laughing all the way to the bank with that project … it was a cost plus project. This meant that any time the M.O.D. went to G.E.C., and they did on a regular basis, and asked for the A.E.W. to be able to do something new G.E.C. always said YES and increased the overall cost of the project. It was like a runaway train.

    In fact things got so bad that there was a standing joke about the A.E.W. Nimrod that said it would need a second Nimrod flying in formation just to carry the cooling equipment for the A.E.W. kit! 😀

  115. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, I thought all was supposed to be going to plan and never really checked it out, But it seems now that these 24 are advancing the order, before this the order was for just 5 of them. From the RN:

    “Currently being built at shipyards around the country, HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales are the future flagships of the nation. Initially the ships will carry helicopters. The vast flight deck and hangar can accommodate any helicopter in Britain’s military inventory. From 2020, however, our punch will be delivered by the F35 Lightning II, the world’s most advanced stealth fighter-bomber. “

    All 5 of them I guess.

  116. Hamish McTavish says:

    I apologise in advance for the length of this post but it gives a few more details of what is expected from the SDSR (Strategic Defence Spending Review) and is from a guy called Howard Wheldon who is a defence analyst and commentator. He is a bit of an eagle though, and is not exactly “neutral” in any commentary he does provide.

    Some Possible Capability (not guaranteed) Enhancement and other Pointers to Expect:

    Two 5,000-strong (from existing force numbers) rapid deployment ‘strike brigades’ to be created by 2025 using the new Ajax (formerly Scout) armoured vehicles etc.
    50 of the existing Apache Attack Helicopters to be replaced.
    Manpower target numbers left at 82,000 although Reserves may be downwardly adjusted.
    Substantial downsizing of basing and real estate.

    Royal Navy:
    Both new aircraft carriers to be commissioned, more F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets from the 48 planned in SDSR 2010 to be ordered now and aircraft numbers planned for the mid 2020s to be upwardly revised.
    Confirmation of the first eight Type 26 vessels to be built and decisions appertaining to additional ships and type subject to further review.
    Royal Navy to get some additional manning for the new Carriers but will likely need to place one or maybe two capital ships on extended readiness.
    Astute Class Boat 7 to be confirmed
    Successor Programme – To be confirmed as a four-boat continuous at sea Trident replacement programme subject to early House of Commons vote.

    Royal Air Force
    Acquisition of nine Boeing Maritime Patrol Aircraft. Possible but not yet confirmed.
    From the planned six front-line combat jet squadrons planned in SDSR 2010, this moves up to eight with the addition of two further Typhoon squadrons made up of existing Tranche 1 aircraft that had been planned to be removed. This will take the planned number of front-line fast-jet squadrons to eight. There will be an additional squadron of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets added by the end of the decade or shortly afterwards taking the number of fast jet squadrons up to nine.
    Possible one-year extension of Tornado GR4 taking the OSD to 2019/20 – no confirmation available and on balance I think unlikely.
    Typhoon upgrade programme confirmation of all weapons, weapons delivery and radar enhancements.
    Sentry E-3D AWACS aircraft capability enhancement taking the OSD out to 2035 (similar to US and France).
    Sentinel capability extension to at least 2021 with option to take this to 2025.
    Retention of 12 existing Lockheed Martin C-130J aircraft mainly for continued use by Special Forces.
    Two or maybe three base closures.
    Some adjustments to RAF Regiment.
    MFTS Second Stage Conformation.

    There is a fair bit of other information in his article but that will take up even more space in a post. The whole thing is an e-mailed newsletter format and I haven’t found a way (yet) of linking to it, which would be preferable.

  117. Lesley-Anne says:

    Just looking through your listing Heedtracker and I think you may have missed a couple of aircraft that come under the Long Range Aviation Command.

    Tu 22M Backfire

    Tu 160 Blackjack

    Tu 95 Bear

  118. yesindyref2 says:

    The MRA4 had largely fixed the wing problem of the MR2, and had comparable speed and armament, twice the range, but the P8 as advanced high altitude ASW. Thing is one MRA4 was on acceptance testing with the RAF and they liked it, at least a forum I found had an ex-pilot savage it was scrapped. From memory that just saved £1 billion, as all 9 were built but not fully kitted out, The cost of the P8s is going to be what, over £2 billion?

    Liam Fox was Defence Secretary, but I’ve no idea if he had much option since the SDSR would have been set up by Labour. I wonder what Hammond would have done though?

  119. Lesley-Anne says:

    If I have read that right Hamish the U.K. is about to end up with 8, yes that’s right, EIGHT front line jet squadrons!

    Now compare this with what Heedtracker posted:

    38 fighter squadrons and 14 assault squadrons. I’ll ignore the other options just to make things look LESS bleak. 🙂

    All I can say is that I’m glad no one has bothered to figure out the numbers game of Russian aircraft against UK aircraft … oh wait a minute … 😀

  120. Proud Cybernat says:

    Those ‘Broad Shoulders’ of the UK are doing a damn fine job of protecting Barnett, our shipyards, our steelworks, our oil refineries, our airports, our pensions, our Scottish Parliament and on and on the list goes. Boy am I glad we voted for those broad shoulders which protects all these things.

    But hey, look on the bright side–we still have the Butcher’s Apron, Auntie Beeb and Austerity Max so all’s well with the world.

    Seriously though–for those No voters and Devo-Maxers out there (and I’m sure there must be a considerable number who read this site) ask yourselves honestly–is this really what you vote NO for? Could it reall have been any worse going out and making our own way in the world? Really?

    The B4FTA (Before & After) Awards 2015 (Vol. I)

    Vol. II coming soon to a screen near you.

  121. Dcanmore says:

    I think this is part of the continuing running down of the military footprint in Scotland. Eight frigate order will guarantee no more hardware will be built on the Clyde after 2021. Thereafter any further orders will go to tender internationally with a competing ‘British’ yard such as BAE Systems Barrow which still is fully operational albeit constructing nuclear submarines exclusively for the past 10 years. I believe the Tide-class supply ships being built in South Korea is a test of this procurement direction.

    As for the carrier(s), their home port will be Portsmouth, not Faslane.

    The new procurement of maritime patrol aircraft from Boeing will be stationed at Lossiemouth, a decision made over ‘competing’ Lincolnshire. However this is just for convenience of geography. The reason Lincolnshire was mentioned was to provide a future base in England that would also be suitable, the aircraft can be moved quite easily with little pain from a base in Scotland to a base in England if the Government chose to do so.

    As far as Faslane goes there isn’t any solution yet to harbouring the UK’s nuclear fleet safely elsewhere. It would take £billions to build a new base and weapons storage and couldn’t be done secretly. Faslane remains the only unwelcome problem in transferring the military from Scotland to England absolute. It has been mentioned before but if Scotland was successful with an Indyref2 in 2021 then Faslane (and Coulport) would probably be annexed by either rUK or NATO with UN backing because of the nature and importance of the weapons stored there until a new base is acquired.

    Scotland has physical shipyards, airfields, barracks and land that can’t be moved. But there is equipment that can be shipped. I think the Tories are drawing up Plan Bs for all of the military branches to move equipment to English bases when the need (or malevolence) arises. The Tories are not interested in the welfare of Scots, they expect now to be in power for the next two elections, with that time on their hands and possibly out of Europe the Scottish people will be left only with the magnificent vistas of their country.

    As the old codger said in Local Hero “you can’t eat scenery!” If Scotland is still part of the UK by the 2020/30s it is going to be a really grim place to live.

  122. Lesley-Anne says:

    You really have to question the mentality of these politicians in my view yesindyref2. I mean the Nimrod was not simply a long range A.S.W. aircraft, its loiter time was incredible and if nothing else stands out for me it is the oil rig fire on Piper Alpha. As well as all the helicopters, rescue ships scurrying around trying to save the oil rig workers there was a Nimrod overhead the whole time doing the local coordination thingy that it does so very well.

    For me, anyone in the position of power to scrap any defence equipment without having a replacement in place immediately, or shortly, after needs locked up and the key thrown away.

    Just on the basics of keeping control of our waters it was completely insane to scrap the Nimrod. Of course as you say it was probably Labour, a.k.a. Broon the Loon, that set the ball rolling on the scrapping idea but hey with a new government surely someone, ANYONE, could have stood up and said NO to the scrapping ideas at least until they had reviewed the needs of the nation as opposed the needs of the millionaire politicians.

  123. Dcanmore says:

    Some discussion about the Nimrod MRA4… two were on flying trials and a further three were half-completed by the time they were destroyed.

    Tory minister just lied to parliament: “Defence Minister Philip Dunne says it was ‘the right decision’ at the time as the programme was ‘over budget’ with a prototype that they were unsure ‘would ever fly’.

    Over budget yes, but two were flying trials by 2009 and a year before they were cancelled.

  124. Ken MacColl says:

    Carmichael has, as they say, “form” in lies and deception and along with LibDem colleagues seems to think that such behaviour is normal and acceptable-see Tavish Scott’s contempt for island constituents questioning his colleague’s behaviour, Liam MacArthur’s support for the same cause and Malcolm Bruce, now Lord Muck of somewhere else,now lining his pockets in another place, who suggested that lying was part and parcel of the normal electioneering process.
    There can be few government departments as incompetent as the MOD where estimated costs for a dubious project can escalate overnight from £120 thousand Million to £167 thousand million, where a fleet of Nimrod aircraft was trashed without any consultation in short time and is now being replaced at enormous cost; where our ageing fighter aircraft are being replaced in a blind panic when it is realised that we are building aircraft carriers when we have no aircraft. It is a wonder that we are not sending our ceremionial air fleet that consists of Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster bombers, backed up by the Red Arrows to confront the enemy. Means while a phalanx of retired general and admirals appear on TV urging that yet more young men and women be sacrificed in yet another Middle Eastern adventure. Shock and Awe? Aye right!
    Sic transit gloria, indeed.

  125. Lesley-Anne says:

    You really have to question the mentality of these brain dead morons Dcanmore.

    Tory minister just lied to parliament: “Defence Minister Philip Dunne says it was ‘the right decision’ at the time as the programme was ‘over budget’ with a prototype that they were unsure ‘would ever fly’.

    Since when has the budget for ANY Westminster government programme EVER been a consideration?

    I can not think of a SINGLE Westminster programme that has EVER come in ON budget or even UNDER budget!

  126. michael diamond says:

    I agree with sassenach 10.15am. How could no voters be so monumentally stupid.

  127. Lesley-Anne says:

    It is a wonder that we are not sending our ceremionial air fleet that consists of Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster bombers, backed up by the Red Arrows to confront the enemy.

    Erm … that will be Lancaster … SINGULAR I think Ken. At least it was singular Lancaster when I was at Conningsby and I don’t think they have managed to buy any more new ones since then. 😀

  128. yesindyref2 says:

    Was it two on trials? Sounds reasonable. And I forgot Dunne. Yes, what the Tories did was undo everything Labour had done regardless, just because it was Labour, I think. The fools.

  129. Lesley-Anne says:

    I do not think the point could have been made any clearer Macart … thanks for that! 😉

  130. Lesley-Anne says:

    I have to admit that two Nimrod MRA4’s sounds logical to me as well yesindyref2.

    One aircraft would probably have been used for airframe and flight parameter testing and the second aircraft used for systems testing.

  131. Peter Macbeastie says:

    “Janet says:
    23 November, 2015 at 11:42 am
    What about those Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker vessels that are being procured from that corner of the United Kingdom…called Republic of Korea!”

    You’ll probably be aware of the spin deployed on that particular one but I’ll state it here and see if it raises an ironic chuckle from anyone.

    These ships do not apply to that particular rule, says the humourless gold braid brigade at the Admiralty. Oh no, in spite of these ships being painted the same grey as actual warships, they’re not warships, donchaknow? Tankers.

    Never mind it’s all out of the MoD budget. That’s the level of semantics involved there.

  132. Stuart says:

    Shame ‘Wings’ story turned out to be Bollocks.

    As the SDSR has just been announced in Parliament, and the frigates WILL be ordered in stages!

    ALL of them!

    Still never mind it’s just another day in Wangerland…

  133. Bill McLean says:

    Stuart – Cameron must be lying again then!

  134. Lesley-Anne says:

    Stuart says:
    23 November, 2015 at 4:07 pm

    Shame ‘Wings’ story turned out to be Bollocks.

    As the SDSR has just been announced in Parliament, and the frigates WILL be ordered in stages!

    ALL of them!

    Still never mind it’s just another day in Wangerland…

    No doubt you will be saying the same thing over on the Daily Record then Stuart. After all it was the Daily Record that came out with the announcement that jobs will be lost on the Clyde and NOT the full quota of Type 26 Frigates will be built. It is all there for you to see and yes even read up at the top of the page. In case you are lost as to where abouts it is the article on the RIGHT hand side adjacent to the Daily Record front page with SUNK across it. 😉

    Everyone on here has been responding to the extremely factual and 100% correct article in the Daily Record. After all it MUST be 100% correct because as we all know very well the Daily Record NEVER lies or gets its information screwed up!

  135. Dcanmore says:


    Not really. The commitment to Scotland is 8 frigates. The other ‘lighter’ frigates which will be OPVs (Ocean Patrol Vehicles) is not committed to the Clyde. Smaller vessels can be built elsewhere in the UK.

    The five OPVs or light ‘frigates’ will be based in Scotland while the T-26 will be globally stationed working out from Portsmouth.

  136. You have to wonder about those shipyard workers who are now concerned about their jobs, didn’t they learn from history?

    In the 1970s the unionists peddled the line that nationalisation would safeguard their jobs of and the future of the shipyards.

    The unionists also peddled the same nonsense peddled during the 1978/9 devolution referendum warning that only by remaining part of the UK would the jobs and the ship building industry have a secure future.

    So where are all those jobs and yards today?

  137. Dcanmore says:

    Yup, I’ll stick to my original post, there will be no more military orders for the Clyde post 2021.

  138. One_Scot says:

    Has there actually been anything that they threatened would happen with a Yes vote, not happened yet with a No vote.

  139. Macart says:

    @Lesley Anne

    According to the BBC, who are never wrong (cough), the order has been reduced from 13 to eight. This headline only 23mins old.

    Which is indeed, as outlined by the Record, a reduction in the order of five ships.

  140. Dcanmore says:

    These are the OPVs (Ocean Patrol Vessels) that BAE Systems Scotstoun and Portsmouth already designed and built for the Brazilian Navy in 2009/10.

    Expect something similar for the RN to be based in Scotland to ward off the Russian Fleet. Well it’s better than waiting a couple days for support from Portsmouth I suppose. No T-26s will be based in Scotland.

  141. Lesley-Anne says:

    So not only are WE *cough* lying Macart but so is the Daily Record AND the BBC! 😀

    Who’d have thunk it Macart, us too poor, too wee, and too stupid wingers being cast into the same box as the hyper intelligent 😉 BBC and the Daily Record? 😀

  142. yesindyref2 says:

    @stuart, @dcanmore

    The BBC says “The UK government has confirmed it is to reduce the number of new Type 26 Global Combat Ships being built on the Clyde from 13 to eight.”

    So much for that then.

    “The prime minister also said the UK was to design and build a new class of “light, flexible general purpose frigates” in addition to the Type 26, which would bring the total number of frigates ordered to “at least 13″.”

    The River class is not a “light frigate”, though the new ones have a helo pad and are very capable. Top speed 24 knots as opposed to 28 knots of the T26. I guess the light frigate will be something of an improved River class vessel, higher top speed.

    There’s been discussion in the past of replacing a load of frigates with cheaper OPVs, some for, some against. A lot of the duties frigates and even destroyers do though could be done by OPVs.

    But 8 FF and 6 DD as escorts for 2 carriers, plus other duties, refits, exercises, return to base, R&R? I don’t think so. My guess is that Zambelias won’t be a happy bunny.

  143. Lesley-Anne says:

    My guess is that Zambelias won’t be a happy bunny.

    Oh I dunno yesindyref2 at least this way he can kick most, if not all the Admirals and vice admirals out of the M.O.D. in London and send them back to command a ship, any ship, even the local rowing boat so he can get some peace and quiet about the place. 😉

    All that clunking of gold braid about the place must do Zambelias’s head in … I know it would do my head in. 😀

  144. Robert Peffers says:

    @Marie Clark says: 23 November, 2015 at 10:26 am:

    ” … I despair sometimes of my fellow countrymen who were either conned, or just walk about with their eyes shut. I’m all right, so what’s the problem.”

    It isn’t that they are blind, deaf or stupid, Marie. It is just they find politics, and much of the news, totally uninteresting.

    They scan the radio & TV programmes list and note that this, that or the other, Celeb filled items are on and make wee mental notes of news programmes and political items. The only reason they have to note newscasts and politics is they count these as good times to have toilet breaks, make the supper and have a wee cup of tea and a biscuit.

  145. Lesley-Anne says:

    The only reason they have to note newscasts and politics is they count these as good times to have toilet breaks, make the supper and have a wee cup of tea and a biscuit.

    DAMN IT!

    So that is where I’ve been going wrong all those years. I’ve been doing it all wrong. I have been going to the toilet, making my supper, having a wee cuppa, biccie and chat when Corrie has been on! No wonder I’m the village idiot! 😀

  146. Macart says:


    ‘My guess is that Zambelias won’t be a happy bunny.’

    That’d be my guess, but then he was expecting a damn sight more initially. Understandable though, seein’ as how the MODs budget has required a bit of rejigging of recent times. Apparently they’re not quite done going upwards on the Trident bill. 😮

  147. JaMur says:

    Think we need a new fundraiser Rev, mad Dave has just let slip trident is up by another 6 BILLION. Only 31bn for four planet destroyers. What a bargin and we get to keep em right next to our largest yes city.

  148. Lesley-Anne says:

    Apparently they’re not quite done going upwards on the Trident bill. 😮


    Trident will cost even MORE than the £167 Billion! 🙂

    Well who knew that was going to happen then? … oh that’s right WE DID! 😀

    What was it I saying earlier about WM programmes NEVER coming in ON budget? 😀

    I wonder what *cough* NEW figure they will come out with this and what new *ahem* excuse they will drag out the bottomless pit this time round. 😉

  149. heedtracker says:

    How BBC vote SLab Scotland will spin UKOK liars reneging on BetterTogether lies.

    Douglas Fraser ?@BBCDouglasF 56m56 minutes ago
    Building 8 frigates instead of 13 will surely push the average price up. Here’s what BAE was saying in June 2014:

  150. yesindyref2 says:

    HMS Clyde has a helo deck and top speed 21 knots. Forth, Medway and Trent, first to be ready in 2017, will have top speed 24 knots, In fairness they’re for anti-terrorism and piracy. Speed of the QE is 25 knots, so I guess just the one knot would do to keep pace, but not to fuss around and catch up.

  151. The only way to put a stop to this is independence and the only way you are going to get that in ref.,2 is to stop all Incomers having a vote in it it should be only scots who are born and live in Scotland who should be able to decide the future of their country and no one else it is what is called Fair Play

  152. heedtracker says:

    Douglas Fraser probably one for their best bullshitters

    “The Better Together campaign had warned during the referendum campaign that it was unlikely the frigates would be built on the Clyde if Scotland voted for independence”

    That’s he gets the BBC mega bucks. Cracker of liar that dude. They promised a lot more for your NO vote than, what got farted out by Westminster today that’s for sure.

    But why bring up the past. Its the BBC lie machine in action.

  153. Foonurt says:

    Fascinating the number of ex-forces (and current?),on Wings Over Scotland.

    Whit did Queen and country dae tae ye, tae turn yurr heids oor weiy?

  154. heedtracker says:

    Whit did Queen and country dae tae ye, tae turn yurr heids oor weiy?

    I was in the Cubs. It was hell. Every Thursday evening after 2 hours of mayhem, Akela (Mrs Macgregor) would be slumped at the door of the Scout hut, clutching her chest, “earn this” her last words, each week.

  155. Clydebuilt says:

    The BBC In Scotland’s radio Scotland is describing the cuts in Type 26 as APPARENT

    Radio 2’s dinner time show covered the Nimrod scandal. The last squadron leader for the Squadron managed to get on air. Defending the aircraft stating that the in service version of the aircraft continually won competitions held in Canada and the aircrafts radar kit was the envy of other nations.

    Rather than mothball the fleet, Liam fix had it destroyed behind screens by JCB’s ensuring a future order for the American aircraft industry. …..that’ll be the same industry that makes Trident missiles and F35’s

  156. Craig says:

    To put something into perspective here

    Can I remind everyone that the City Of Glasgow voted YES, Govan is in Glasgow, places like Ayr, Dumfries & Galloway, the Borders voted NO, the shipyard issue has NO truck with them, it doesn’t affect those areas one iota.

    Whilst it’s a clear sign of betrayal to the workers of the shipyards, it’s a non-issue for the rest of Scotland.

    We need to keep focused on the issues like the HMRC job losses which clearly will have a major impact as, as we all know, HMRC claimed that independence would cost 1200 jobs and Westminster have announced upto 8000 jobs would go.

  157. Foonurt says:

    Heedtracker – wull ah lastit twaw weeks ett yoan lifeboays, swingin oan yoan muckle stage-currtinz in bocht chips wae wurr teminz fur yoan bunnet.

    Still, ah curious hing yoan military-micht.

  158. heedtracker says:

    Still, ah curious hing yoan military-micht.

    Akela, we will do our best, for queen and fatherland.

  159. Andy-B says:

    What about HMRC jobs in Scotland isn’t there a comparison for that one.

  160. Helena Brown says:

    Regardless of when and if these Frigates are built I reckon they will be a bit late for “this” war that is being planned, as will all those soldiers who need to be recruited and trained, but hey ho, our imperial masters will be ready for the next one. Whether we will be part of the Empire by then is up to us. I remember when Labour were planning on increasing the number of Teachers, my old late lamented friend said it is hardly going to happen right away, they are not something you go round picking of supermarket shelf.

  161. Capella says:

    Whit did Queen and country dae tae ye, tae turn yurr heids oor weiy?
    I was in the Guides, briefly. Lots of marching but I used to pretend I had one leg shorter than the other. For laffs.
    On cross coutry jaunts, I took the bus and spent the time saved in a local cafe playing the juke box.
    I was asked to leave.

  162. Clydebuilt says:

    Craig @ 6.17 pm, I don’t live anywhere near Govan or Scotstoun and I am interested in these yards loosing work. Any part of Scotland loosing jobs and skills is of concern to me…… I think that’s a pretty common attitude in Scotland.

  163. Cadogan Enright says:

    City Political Economy Research Centre reported on RT pointing out that Welfare Cuts will crash the UKOK economy and prolong depression while not resolving the deficit.

    I wonder should I look at the BBC website and see if they have anything on this?

  164. Foonurt says:

    Capella – ye wurr guidit richt.

  165. john king says:

    “I was asked to leave.”


    I wasn’t allowed within a hundred yards o the girl guides hall when they fun me oot. 😉

  166. ian foulds says:

    Kennedy says:
    23 November, 2015 at 10:29 am

    Wise up people. Take control.

    We are sovereign. We just need numbers’

    This is all we need to get the message over

  167. john king says:

    Aa widnae huv minded but I really do huv wan leg shoarter than the other! 🙁

  168. Capella says:

    @ john king
    I think your hairstyle is a bit of a giveaway. 😉

  169. J Galt says:

    With the F35 being a complete Turkey and easy prey for the Sukhois, our Russian liberators should be here even sooner than we thought!

  170. john king says:

    “I think your hairstyle is a bit of a giveaway. ;)”

    Whits wrang wi ma hair like?
    ye dinnae get a sward like that wioot effort.
    Aa back comb it an aahin. 🙂

  171. Clydebuilt says:

    Dr. Liam Fox whilst the Defense Secretary took decision to scrap Nimrod

    Had a retired US Army Captain (Luke Coffey) as an aide

    Created position for a second military aide against advice of senior MOD officials

    Then there’s his link with Adam Werrity

    Fox set up the charity Atlantic Bridge in 1997 to strengthen the special relationship. After complaints from the charity commission it was dissolved. The Comission says it does not know what happened to the £36,000 left in it’s bank account.

  172. Capella says:

    @ john king
    I think your hairstyle lovely. But the Guides wouldn’t approve. It’s a bit tarty.
    Now I’m off to watch a very long video about 9/11

  173. Scotaff says:

    Well there it is SDSR 2015 the Tories scrap Nimrod in 2010 planes programme cost £4bn and 400 employee lost their jobs this was a BAE prime contract wIth Boeing subcontracted for the Tactical Command System the eyes and heart of the aircraft all that development work paid for by our taxes. In 2015 the Tories see the error of their ways and agree to buy American maritime patrol aircraft from Boeing with a tactical command system that we the tax payer having already paid a significant amount of taxpayers money for already. Which we know have to pay for a second time. Scandalous!!!

    Da ja vu we were promised 12 Type 45’s and ended up with 6 . Today we are told told that 13 type 26 frigates is now 8 Frigates. When will we ever learn. Westminster Governments couldn’t care less about about Scotland. I hope the No voters are starting to realise what is happening in Scotland we are being slowly strangled and shafted. If you google secret Scotland and look at the military footprint in Scotland 20/30 years ago and look at what we have today there is no comparison. When we get another shout at independence make It Yes.

  174. Cath says:

    I agree totally with Capella and Doug – it dawned on me not so long ago that Project Fear wasn’t just about scaremongering; it was also about getting in what were essentially a load of UK government plans for Scotland anyway and dressing them up as “this is what will happen if you vote Yes.” They saw (and still see) it as win/win. If it was a Yes vote, they would have blamed it all on the Yes vote say “told you so” and done everything possible to reverse the Yes vote via the 2015 and 2016 elections.

    With a no vote, they figured they could go ahead and do it all anyway because it would be too late then – we’d have voted no and would’t be able to do anything about it. (They’re being pretty stupid and arrogant, given that the vote was closer than they hoped and the SNP result in 2015, but that’s them through and through – they genuinely believe they’re safe as “they won’t let us” have another referendum).

    So yes, it’s horrible to watch, and they’re asset stripping Scotland, and with every year that passes it’ll be harder to go independent because they’ll have taken more away. But ultimately, for us that may be a better outcome. Had it been a narrow yes vote, and it would never have been anything else last year, just think of the pressure we’d be facing right now? The media onslaught of, “told you so”, workers now facing losing jobs and being told it was a result of the Yes vote. Labour, Tories and Lib Dem working together with the media to reverse it, and almost certainly not with 56 SNP MPs at Westminster either.

    They’re being far too arrogant, and it just may be a first loss and the resulting dismantling of the scaremongering and disappearance of that ability to say, “told you so” may be what we need for a decent margin of win, and one that will hold. So it may not be all bad.

  175. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Oh you’ll never get to heaven,
    With a fat Girl Guide,
    Coz a fat Girl Guide
    Won’t fit inside.
    Oh you’ll never get to heaven,
    With a fat Girl Guide,
    Coz a fat Girl Guide
    Won’t fit inside.
    Ain’t gonna grieve the Lord no more.

    Ah’ll git mah coat…

  176. Ghillie says:

    All of the people I knew who voted ‘No’ had a vested interest in preventing Scotland from becoming Independent.

    They still do not want to hear that Yes campaigners predicted acuratly what would happen next.

    Most of the No voters I knew are not touched by austerity or job loses. Though most of their kids have enjoyed free univeristy education and a lovely quality of life.

    One donates generously to food banks and apparently has a horror of homelessness BUT would never concede that his vote had anything to do with that worsening situation.

    Some folk are, I think, beyond my reach and I weep for what they have done to the people of Scotland.

    What I do have to do is find those who have the courage to listen and learn and bear witness to is happening and act on it now, the ones who can be woken up.

  177. Iain More says:

    The Naw bags Project Fear was really Project Scorched Earth in disguise.

  178. CapnAndy says:

    For those of you who think Cameron is brain dead, I’m afraid not. What Cameron and his buddies have pulled off is the old, “Tear it down and let my pals make a lot of money rebuilding it scam”. I knew this would happen when Cameron and Clegg got into power.

    First thing they did was to sell off the strategic reserve of armoured vehicles, then came the Harriers, the Nimrods, the Tank factory in Newcastle was closed and so on and so forth.

    Now as I smugly predicted to friends and family, money is no object. We need this stuff and we need it now. Might not get it now, but that’s inconsequential. Brain dead….No. A sly scheming bastard….YES.

  179. Sandy Henderson says:

    Maritime surveillence aircraft for Lossiemouth. Is Cameron’s boss Obahma turning the screw?

  180. Breeks says:

    Pity we don’t have a fishing industry, or even better, offshore oil production facilities which would generate a need for support vessels and construction.of platforms. If we added in some progressive new industry for diversification, let’s say renewables, we might even have enough domestic production to warrant our own steel industry. Just imagine that! (Yeah, you’ll have to). That way we could be building ships like the Norwegians, non military top spec vessels produced by the dozen every year. Apparently Korea complains bitterly about the unfair competition with the Norwegians having a ready oil market on their doorstep.

    Norway of course has a proper government. We have the greedy self serving warmongers in Westminster.

  181. ahundredthidiot says:

    Rev mentioned something about not wanting to start WW3 the other thread

    I thought he would be smart enough to realise we are in the twelfth year of it. I have said this before, so I am not taking advantage of today’s incident. Just a reminder, WW2 was the phoney war until it was all done and dusted. Nobody ‘declares’ war anymore.

    We could’ve, maybe, removed ourselves from the Eastern Alliance cross hairs by voting Yes, maybe, not now. Airports, oil refineries, rail, motorways, ports, will all be targets when all the chess pieces are finally in place.

    Wake up call for me was Suez Canal.

  182. gus1940 says:

    I have always been of the opinion that Defence Spending does not in itself increase the wealth of the nation – all it does is re-circulate taxpayers’ money albeit creating jobs with a high % of the spending returning to the government via income tax, NI, VAT and Corporation Tax.

    That is all very well if the spending is with the UK Arms Industry but with the Boeing P8s and the F35s the money vanishes form our economy creating zilch in the way of jobs while wrecking the Balance of Payments.

    We were told that the fleet of new Nimrods was scrapped due to massive cost overruns. However, at least the excessive cost went to UK firms maintaining highly paid jobs and not to the Yanks.

    Can I suggest that while it may have been more expensive to complete the Nimrods compared with straight purchase of P8s it may have been better for the UK economy to stick with the Nimrods.

    Even after the initial purchase of the P8s during the service lifetime there will be further multi million (possibly billion) spent on spares but similar spares expenditure on Numrods would be in The UK prptecting jobs.

  183. yesindyref2 says:

    I was thinking about the T26 order, and it’s not neccessarily bad news for the Clyde, in fact it could be win win for them, Indy or not.

    Strugeon had said we’d have 4 or even 5 Type 26 which would have cost getting on for £2 billion. But it would have helped keep the jobs on the Clyde.

    Now there’s 8 Type 26 being built, and once started it would be real stupid to move it elsewhere half-way through.

    But the interesting thing is the 5 light frigates. It seems to me that wouldn’t have been lightly thought up, so perhaps there’s already outline designs and specs. The GMB union guy should be straight on to Downing Street pushing for them to be built on the Clyde. And indeed there may be a market for them elsewhere in the world.

    Here’s where it gets interesting. If it’s a case of Indy, then if the rUK says they’re not going to build them on the Clyde, then Scotland can order 5 or 6 of them. Presumably they’re going to be a fair bit cheaper than the T26, perhaps two-thirds or half.

    What it means is that the UK can’t threaten jobs in shipbuilding next indy ref. So it could be that Cameron blew his own trumpet out the water, voluntarily as well!

  184. gus1940 says:

    On the subject of our 2 white elephant carriers and the purchase of F35Bs to fly off them can I suggest an alternate scenario which to me makes far more sense to me:-

    When the Jopint Strike Fighter project (which resulted in the Typhoon) was originally conceived the French Government were part of the consortium.

    However, there was a fall-out over the final spec, the French withdrew and did their own thing resulting in the Rafale for which they produced both land based and navalised carrier versions.

    Looking at the Rafale and Typhoon it is obvious that they share common ancestry.

    When it came to the carriers the UK Govt yo-yo’d back and forwards between STOL & Cat & Trap eventually ending up with STOL and going for the Lockheed Martin F35Bs which have not been without their development problems and are generally recognised to be inferior to the A & C conventional versions.

    If we had gone for Cat & Trap for the new carriers the following options would have been open as regards aircraft:-

    The French navalised Rafale.
    A navalised version of the Typhoon – if the French could do it with the Rafale given the common ancestry of the two arcraft I can’t see why the UK couldn’t navalise the Typhoon.
    The conventional F35s ordered by The USN.

    At one point it was suggested that France and The UK would share one of our white elephants but without C&T that idea disappeared without trace.

    While F35Bs could land on the Charles de Gaulle and the USN’s Nimitzes they couldn’t take off with a full weapons loads due to the absence of a Ski Jump deck and obviously we can forget any suggestion of navalised Rafales, Etendards, Conventional F35s and F18s operating from
    our 2 vessels.

    Oh what a wonderful MoD and govermnt we have.

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