Waving goodbye
When all the media spin – and boy are there ever some examples around today – is said and done, one cold fact will remain: Kezia Dugdale inherited the main opposition party in Scotland, and bequeathed her unlucky successor a third-placed irrelevance.
Before Dugdale took over two years ago this month, Labour had NEVER finished third behind the SNP and the Tories in a Scottish election in its entire 100-year-plus history. By common consensus her predecessor had left the party at rock bottom, but Dugdale immediately got out her shovel and started digging furiously.
Within 18 months, she’d actually shed almost 40% of the remaining voters Jim Murphy had left the party with, taking its support from the all-time low of 24% Murphy had achieved in the cataclysmic 2015 general election down to a polling average of 15%.
In the two general elections she fought as leader, plus this year’s council elections, Scottish Labour duly did come third in each. That it actually regained some seats in the snap 2017 UK election wasn’t down to any Dugdale-inspired Labour resurgence, but to the SNP shedding so many votes that even in the 20+ seats where the Labour vote went DOWN from 2015, sometimes the Nats still managed to drop below them.
Remarkably, for every FIFTY votes that Nicola Sturgeon’s party lost in June – the vast bulk of them in what had been safe Labour seats barely two years earlier – Labour under Dugdale managed to collect just ONE of them. It was the worst Scottish miss of an open goal since Chris Iwelumo’s.
(And even the modest degree of recovery that saw the vote share rise back to the 24% level of Murphy’s disaster was attributed more or less universally to Jeremy Corbyn, the UK Labour leader Dugdale had bitterly and stridently opposed from the very first moments of his appearance on the scene.)
Having taken over promising to bring clarity to what Scottish Labour stood for, Dugdale leaves a party in a spectacular mess of policy contradictions. She flipflopped and flapped over almost every position from the constitution to nuclear weapons (Labour’s stance on Trident in particular is a knot that even Alexander The Great would struggle to hack through with his sword). The only thing anyone’s currently sure of is that Scottish Labour want to put their taxes up.
She was hopelessly and comprehensively outwitted in opposition by Ruth Davidson, a deeply mediocre talent made to shine by dint of being placed next to Dugdale (and Willie Rennie). Leading a ragtag band of racists, bigots and idiots in a party whose very name was the punchline to a joke about pandas, Davidson was nevertheless able to power past Dugdale to become Scotland’s primary Unionist voice.
Dugdale’s command of facts and data is literally a running joke. Her performances at FMQs were a political liability and may also be a legal one. She leaves the branch office in crisis with no obvious heir to her splintered, uncomfortable throne.
(Perhaps the most telling legacy of her time in charge will be the parade of sub-D-list diddies who are likely to seek the top job in her wake. A party in rude resurging health would have candidates clawing at each other’s eyes to lead it, perhaps including some from the ranks of big names ejected in 2015 seeking to revive careers which haven’t exactly set the private-sector heather on fire. At the moment, for contrast, people are seriously talking about James Kelly having a tilt at it.)
It speaks volumes of Dugdale’s character that her last act as leader was the spiteful, embarrassingly petty decision to quit on the day the world should have been looking at Scotland proudly unveiling an engineering marvel on the Forth.
Even allowing the wish to have the decks cleared before Holyrood resumes next week, Dugdale could have resigned tomorrow or on Friday and still left plenty time for the Sunday papers to get their retrospectives together. But instead she chose to take a giant metaphorical dump on the biggest and most successful piece of infrastructure built in Scotland for decades, stealing the headlines in one final sour stab from Hell’s heart at her own country’s pride and international standing.
Dugdale was previously Scottish Labour’s deputy leader, sitting at Jim Murphy’s right hand when he took the party to previously unplumbed and unimagined depths. But at the end of the day, her time at the helm is best summed up by a quote from a TV show that quit while it was ahead.
Kezia Dugdale’s tragedy is that, in relative terms, she may have been doing the same.
Kezia can step down safe in the knowledge that no matter how piss poor her replacement the media in Scotland will protect them. Would have thought this alone would have encouraged a stampede to take over.
Get ready for all the has beens and never were’s to form an orderly queue for the “top” job….This next week or so promises to be very interesting
A political party without a purpose doesn’t really need a leader.
Not so much a resignation as a redundancy?
I am fairly certain that in the eyes of the public in Scotland, our bridge is far more important than Ms Dugdale. It is certainly far more use and will give us more joy. A case of the heart leaping rather than bleeding.
Wouldn’t want to be in her shoes right now.Did wonder why she’d gone a bit quiet these last few weeks-now I know.Good luck to her.
And SLab continues on its downward spiral yet again lol 😉
Yeah,came with hopes, left with nothing achieved, and leaving even bigger numpties to try and sort things out, knowing the will fix nothing. Slab is headed for oblivion.
Shame to see her go, really. There’s a risk someone vaguely competent may replace her!
The newspaper review on the Wright Stuff has just said it’s a shame Kez has chucked it as she has done so well, she is a great speaker and a fine politician. Apparently she has turned Slab around and they are a rising force in Scotland.
This really shows that the english commentators know absolutely nothing about Scottish politics, although Terry Christian, who is a definite left winger, did say if hard brexit goes through, he expects indyref2 to be a big vote for independence.
Charitably, she may have chosen last night/today to resign as a way of burying bad news.
On the other hand, it demonstrates the biggest contrast imaginable between the success and ability of the SNP administration and Labour’s dire performance (even all the way back to when they couldn’t even manage to get the bridge built when they had the power to do so). SLab may not be far from ‘administration’ itself.
Still, we are left wondering whether Corbyn had a hand in this. Can’t be comfortable for Scottish Labour these days, most of whom are/were known Blairites (including Mr Murray).
Also, clever reference to the “Gordian “He of the Clunking Fist” Knot.” Good one.
Your description of Ruth Davidson,Stu,is spot on. She exists only because of continuous generous and completely uncritical media promotion which previously was being given to whichever log was leading Labour.
Dugdale’s demise is almost entirely down to the establishment controlled media deciding Labour couldn’t save the union but the Tories might and then transferring their support to Ruthie.
Which indicates who and what our enemy is. It not any of the almost non existent unionist parties in Scotland. We have beaten them all and what they now are are pictures on the window of an empty shop.
Our last enemy is the media and the establishment that owns and controls it.
They are in a number of delicate difficulties at the moment. Not quite sure about what to do with Corbyn. Support him in Scotland but not in England? Keep May in power to effect the Brexit that some of them want or take her down to stop the Brexit that much if the UK’s mercantile industry doesn’t want.
For Scotland – NOW IS THE TIME.
Never up to the job, no one else in her party is whist they are trying to out ‘union’ the tories.
Irony in that is if James Kelly is to be a front runner, he is in favour of allowing anti union sectarian songs to be sung freely in our streets.
labour’s Scottish branch is like a family, ‘The Adams Family”.
At the end of the day, Dugdale can be summarised as a 3rd rate careerist who had no vision for Scotland, indeed actively participated in actions that were vehemently, passionately Anti-Scottish in tone and intent. Good riddance.
I’ve a theory about this which I won’t reveal, but relates to a link in the above.
A Final Refrain…
Kez: The Blunder Years
link to youtube.com
Ah well. Now we know what Corbyn was really doing in Scotland.
SNP work with Labour over Brexit? Labour support Brexit. Labour are in cohoots with the Tories. Their best friends. They voted through or abstained every cut in welfare etc. Some journalists are really ignorant and arrogant. Writing a load of nonsense.
@Major Bloodnok
When St Jeremy of Allotments came north to preach to the converted his words, checking them, vetting them for clangers, would have been the responsibility of the local party. He was a laughing stock over the weekend after being apparently ignorant of our separate legal system and campaigning for things the Scottish govt has already implemented.
The buck for that would have stopped at Dugdale’s door. Either she deliberately hung Corbyn out to dry or the party she leads is a deep shambles. Either way it isn’t a good look.
The posturing can stop now from Corbyn – he got what he wanted. I think we will see SLab in all its dying glory as the raging Blairites fight for their lives. If they win they have to split completely from UK Labour.
How long is a decent time before Roden goes back to being a hack and does the dirty on his time with SLab? Cannot see him staying long now.
Dugdale’s friends in the anti-Scottish britnat media will look after her.
Go Forth, Brown, your country needs you.
Ruthie tank commander probably muttering da@mm I wanted to do that.
All the right notes there, Stu, but the more I think about it, the more I’m leaning toward Kez getting the kind of elevation that George Robertson, Baron Robertson of Port Ellen, KT, GCMG, PC, FRSA, FRSE, who was the tenth Secretary General of NATO from 1999 to 2004. Nah, they widnae, wid they?
Shame Cat Boyd RISE MSP candidate did not win an MSP seat. Cat could have put herself forward for Kezia’s vacated seat, as a converted labour voter of course.
Numpties.
The hail lot o them.
Lol @ Stu. Now look what you’ve gone and done 🙂
Can you go after Rooth the Mooth now?
Dugdale, now knows who is in charge of ” Scottish labour”
Britnat London Labour now looking for ” place man” to lead ” accounting unit” in North British ” region”
Dugdale at times was an asset to the indy movement, her inaudible gish galloping and factless rants did her no favours.
The fact that Kelly is in some quarters being touted for the poison chalice position of Labour branch manager is a clear indication that Labour are in turmoil.
‘Friends’ did *not* quit while it was ahead. Three seasons too many… 🙁
Kezia was just not up to the job, but who is in the Scottish branch office of the Labour Party?
Muscleguy,
Yep, that was my first thought, posted yesterday. On top of which being sued is not a good look and maybe Corbyn had his attention drawn by Slabbers to the ‘don’t campaign against the tories’ tactic of the GE which certainly lessened his chance of winning.
On the bright side… were SLab not advertising for paid ‘tweeters’ recently? Welcome back (drum roll) fifi-le-bonbon!
Re the timing. Who cares? The bridge is beautiful and will outlast the next 20(0?) Slab leaders.
Those of us who love it will always appreciate it, the others can go fuck themselves.
The funny is despite her resignation taking over “our” press internationally the bridge is still the most important story. The rest of the world will say “who?”
I genuinely have some sympathy for Kezia. She tried to make the best of a poor hand she was dealt, whilst being out of her depth and trying to cope with the contradictions of Labour in Scotland, a local party antagonistic to Jeremy Corbyn and still sympathetic to Tony Blair. Any remotely combative interviewer could result in a car crash performance. I doubt whether the opening of the new bridge was the reason for this happening today, more likely she has pondered resigning since she was became leader and couldn’t bear to postpone it any longer.
One wonders whether the Labour leader resigned, due to the potential handicap of ;
a. Losing a court case
b. Providing record publicity for the largest anti-liar blog
c. She’s about to video “My Journey from No to Yes”…
Am I being a bit too optimist,in thinking that this could our chance to convert some who support Labour in Scotland.
If there’s a Labour MSP, who secretly supports a indy Scotland, if they could come forward and gain the leaders role, and steer the party towards independent thinking.
Kezia had a tendency to make claims that were easily discredited with fact checking.
What appeared to be her lack of political principles, like a female Jim Murphy, and her support for the Blairites, when Corbynism is on the ascendancy, meant people were already asking: Why is she still SLab’s leader?
The General Election campaign in Scotland, was as Stu points out, a huge own goal for Labour.
The SNP campaign was the worst ever. A total bloody mess. They DESERVED to be and should have been wiped off the WM political map.
The Tory campaign was efficient with one clear goal: stick it to the SNP. The SLab campaign was: Vote Tory.
Successful for the Tories. A total balls-up for Labour, as it cost UK Labour the UK Genereal Election – and let the SNP off the hook.
Kezia was never a leader. SLab are the branch office. UK Labour put a brave face on it, but such a blunder that cost UK Labour their best chance in years of becoming the UK Govt meant only one thing: Kezia’s branch manager days were over.
If SLab get someone from the Left of the party, who at this stage only has to talk the talk, as they aren’t in govt, so do not have to live up to the talk, then the SNP could face further loss in support.
People across traditional working class areas of the Central Belt of Scotland who embraced YES, see an SNP that have been in power for 10 years.
They see an SNP that gives private schools charity status. Fat Cat bosses of Scot Govt funded services while lower paid workers face pay freezes or meagre rises, so they are worse off due to increasing prices.
They see a Scot Govt that wants to work with and help the UK Tory Govt with their Brexit mess.
A Scot Govt that has gone soft on independence. That talked tough about Scotland’s EU decision to Remain, then backed down.
An SNP without independence and Scottish sovereignty as it’s fundamental and prirmary goals then becomes like Labour. A party competing on domestic devolution policies. The SNP can’t compete on UK policies, they can only offer to hold Labour’s coats at WM.
If Scottish Labour’s new leader can convince more Central Belt voters that SLab have better social justice policies than the SNP – which would be easier than you might imagine – then the SNP could return to the split vote between Labour and the SNP in housing schemes across the Central Belt.
If that happens it will mean 10 SNP MPs will be a good result. A hung Scottish Parliament with a clear majority of Unionist MSPs.
Bye bye independence. Bye Bye a Scottish Parliament with sovereignty.
The alarm bells should be ringing at SNP headquarters, but are they?
The ball is still at the SNP’s feet. Wait and hope for the best is what they have chosen to do so far, then hoping for a Tory Govt o.g., but Labour will want to boost their support with a new SLab leader.
If SLab achieve this, we will look back and say the SNP missed political open goals, clear sitters easier than Chris Iwelumo’s and Nicola Sturgeon was the SNP’s version of Berti Vogts.
But with the ability to talk up achieving very little, just like Craig Brown.
Does not matter who takes her place it will
just be another unionist a..e h..e licker
who will just toe the party line and do
scotland down with every chance they get.
f—–g b——ds everyone off them.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Waving goodbye When all the media spin – and boy are there ever some examples around today – is […]
Kezia – in it for the long haul DOWN.
How she can say she has left the party in a better state than 2 years ago just about sums her up.
To be honest there is not really much you can say about the woman, other than she was absolutely hopeless and probably ten times more annoying.
Glad to see the back of her quite frankly.
Muscleguy says:19.32am…agree with that…Kez’s last malevolent acts were to set JC up to look like the ill-informed Britnat prat he really is and to shite all over the New Bridge story. She really is a prize sociopathic individual, but stupid and incoherent with it. Fortunately for us that latter aspect of her personality, the stupidity, has always been ascendant. Look forward to James Kelly’s coronation ( if only!)
Presumably the promise of ermine was enough to persuade her.
Please, please, let it be Kelly.
Please let it be James Kelly
…a Jim Murphy with the wit and charm removed (I know, I know).
For Kezia it was too much too soon. I am sure she is actually quite a decent soul but that was a poisoned chalice she should have stepped away from.
Quoting from the Record article linked above:
“With Scotland losing Labour leaders faster than the flow could be clotted” …
hmmm, think they got the words in the wrong order there!
Well said, Rev, good article!
Good Lord Colin, reading your dismal prognostications is like getting the hangover before the drink. Have a lie doon and maybe whitever is bothering ye will no seem sae bad in the mornin’.
@ Moss
“your dismal prognostications is like getting the hangover before the drink”
Absolute belter.
Thank god I woke up half pished 🙂
I suspect she won’t be the last to resign. Corbyn’s influence permeates not only the forefront of Scottish Labour, but also its hallways and back rooms. I expect a period that will be reminiscent of ‘a night of the long knives’ where MSP’s, councillors, PR staff are all evaluated and trimmed so that it runs in parallel unison with Corbyn’s views and that of the real seat of power, Labour UK in London. How this pans out amongst the Scottish electorate, let alone the MSP’s and staff of Scottish Labour will be interesting.
The problem remains though – Corbyn’s policies, on analysis, still conflict with Scottish expectations. His party will continue to endorse nuclear weapons, and therefore, happily see them remain in Scotland; he still wants Brexit (whereas most Scots don’t); and it is rumoured that he quietly wishes for autonomy and reunification for Northern Ireland (but wishes to see Scotland brought closer and further integrated into the British State).
While Scottish Labour under Kezia didn’t have a clue and hotfooted from one policy to the next before leaping back, Corbyn could be imposing a Labour Party that might be perceived to be just as unpopular in Scotland as the governments of Tony Blair’s and Gordon Brown’s was. But once again, even if some Scots look to Corbyn as an alternative idea of socialism and equality, most of Middle England will still vote Tory. Should Boris succeed Theresa, then that will appeal to vast swathes of the English electorate, even though the man’s buffoonery at times trips him up publicly. They will still take Boris as a man of vision and example. If Boris leads the Tories, then I believe Corbyn’s redefining of the Labour Party will all have been in vain. How long then, if that should come to pass, before the ‘idea’ of neo-con Blairitism will once again rear its head and stalk London Labour. If you can’t beat the Tories with your own game plan, then follow not only their ideals, but also their clothes too. I suspect that this will be the fate of Labour UK in the long run.
But in the meantime …let’s see what fool decides to take up the mantle of wanting to be Scottish Labour leader. I have no doubt, there are a willing few.
So the North British branch of the Red Tories have removed Dugdale on orders from Jeremy Conman, they now must be surely running low on eejits to replace her, or maybe not. Whatever malcontent puppet gets it next will be dancing on a string to his/her London masters. The Brexiteer and British socialist lol Neil Findlay would be my choice to lead this British Nationalist Clown show that is SLAB.
link to youtube.com Enjoy.
Yes. Something of ‘The Bridge Over The River Kwai’ scene, when Alec Guinness makes the ultimate sacrifice by throwing himself on the detonator handle.
Replete of course, with the accompanying whistle of a well known BritNat anthem.
Alas, I fear in this instance, it will prove to be a dud.
But, chuckles aside, perhaps now is the time for magnanimity.
James Kelly — sounds like he’s had a stroke 5 minutes previous. You can almost hear the gears turning as he tries to come up with a competent sentence. Ideal for the red tories as leader.
Mosstrooper says:
30 August, 2017 at 11:14 am
Good Lord Colin…….
I suspect that could well be what our Man from C&A is expecting for the work he does here – ermine becomes him!!
How about bbc’s Sarah Smith as leader? She doesn’t need to be elected because of the unquestioning support she’ll get from the britnat media.
First time I think I have to disagree with you Rev “she chose to take a giant metaphorical dump” No, No, No. Her departure is as less an interesting and momentous occasion than the human mind is able to contemplate. And that’s sience, and you can’t argue with science Rev.
dandy dons
Findlay would be my choice too, angry, humourless and totally tribal. However, he says he is not interested. That may be a Yes, Minister style ploy but perhaps he means it.
Second choice has to be Kelly.
If Alex were to be given room to explore his much less antagonistic approach to independence then things could get interesting if he were to be leader but again I don’t know if he wants it.
Baillie would be a laugh as a surprise joker candidate but I think she and Anas are too Blairite for the current leadership in London.
They should just unite with the blue Tories in Scotland and let the Ruthenfuhrer run the whole show. They are, afterall, all Brtish Nationalist parties.
Yupfurrit Roofie-babes?
There hasn’t been much change in the Yes/No Indy polls in the time Kezia was leader of Scottish Labour. So she did that part of the job, preserving the Union, quite well. I expect her to be well rewarded with future job offers.
The part of her job that was leading Scottish labour to new heights, may not have been first priority for her or her successor.
Looking out for the guid folks of Scotland was likely well down the list, and will be for the new guy or gal.
It’s hard to summon up any interest in who the next leader of SLab will be.
The Bridge, on the other hand, will still be there in 120 years according to the engineers. I have more faith in their skill and dedication right now.
I heard Duncan Hothersal on the radio this morning and he was giving it welly about Kezia’s accomplishments , I was expecting him to start claiming she had built the new bridge all by herself as well.
Then it finished with him saying he did not want her to leave as labour leader, I thought he was away to start bloody crying next.
Note: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let it be James Kelly.
They cannot seriously be considering James Kelly?!!
I’m sure Kezia is probably a decent enough person and even a good laugh outwith politics, but as leader of a political party she came across as insincere, conniving, condescending and out of her depth. Granted a few moments of excellence – the rape clause speech ; but not enough of that and too much of the SNPBAD for the sake of it. Staggering hypocrisy on Corbyn too but then again most of Labour were the same, she’s not exactly on her own for that.
The only decent politician out of that list is probably Alex Rowley – who seems to have a bit of reason behind his thoughts – the rest are all pretty poor.
Sarwar is unelectable and unlikable.
Findlay looks and sounds like a bully.
James Kelly cannot even speak English.
Lewis Macdonald – a walking cliche.
Hopelessly out of their depth.
@ Hand andShrimp 11.08
[ I am sure she is actually quite a decent soul ]
Kezia’s a politician with no moral compass, she basked in the glory of leadership let her sink into the pit of despair where by her actions of support for the Tories committed many people North & South of the border . I have no empathy for Kezia & Politicians of that ilk , she’s a Inglorious bastard .
O/T.apologies.
Craig Murray has a go at the SNP, rightly? Or wrongly?
You decide.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
On Radio Shortbread, Kaye bemoaned to Johnny Beattie the fact she didn’t get an invite to the bridge crossing . He quipped “Give Nicola a phone” this was met with raucous laughter from Kaye and she muttered “I don’t think that would get anywhere…”.
The veil lifts?
Can hardly wait for the James Kelly memoirs, A Brief History of Whine. A cosmic auto-biography from the big bang to his epoch defining moment of leading the SLab.
If the Church had owned all the new printing presses in 1450, then we would still be told the sun revolved round a flat earth.
That’s where we are in Scotland.
@MJT 11:42
I don’t think she will be well-rewarded with job offers, actually.
What Uncle Tams never seem to realise is that once the British Establishment have got what they want from you, that’s generally it. Unless you get high enough up the food chain for a peerage (e.g. Darling, Foulkes), you will be cast aside. Even Brown is scrabbling around a bit these days, and Murphy is struggling.
Regardless of their leader choice we all know UK Labour in Scotland’s position is untenable for future success (Because of their constitution dilemma).
They know what ‘must’ be done; but will resist the choice of a ‘gallows reprieve’, on the grounds of selfish hatred of all things SNP or the end result of Scottish political emancipation, (ie no more House of Lords pension scheme).
Kezia Dugdale is now history (she never mattered anyway, even the press couldn’t raise such a hapless profile as Rev has pointed out).
I have to agree with Dave McEwan Hills comment above @ 10.23. Our final obstacle is the media of North Britain.
And they are mighty, to think otherwise is foolhardy the press write the headlines for the BBC after all, simple, that’s all it takes folks.
Just consider the consequences of reliable reporting devoid of a
sense of bias. Fair media coverage is all that is being sought, but resisted by TV, Radio and the gutter press as the gate keepers of free thought.
The overwhelming majority of press reporters and commentators present a facade that props up the Union View (95% v 5% say).
Thus our voting population, for indy of 45% lacks equitable representation. They know it and they dont care as long as we keep buying into it.
To paraphrase ‘James Wilson’s declaration perhaps it has never been more apt as now for media output.
The media landscape of Scotland must be free or a desert
With one thing and another, Kezia has not covered her party in glory.
On the latest events? My instinct, well, what did we expect?
The timing of any leader of Slab resigning could never be good or not effective as so much is happening so quickly.
Kez’s resignation will NOT dampen my thrill at our bonnie new bridge openning a new avenue to the North = )
(nor will the presence of the quine and her bidey-in, hope they have a lovely day and mibbee an icecream)
However, having already carried a jaded view of Mr Corbyn, I am now now beginning to see him as a pretty unpleasant character who enjoys collecting scalps.
Jeremy Corbyn may well have been stitched up by Blarite staff who lead him, with faulty briefs, to utter numerous gaffes to nonexsitant crowds in a variety of locations around our lovely Nation, about the Scotland he did not know existed to the north of his north.
BUT ANY EDUCATED ENGAGED POLITICIAN SHOULD HAVE KNOWN SOME TRULY BASIC FACTS ABOUT ALL THE NATIONS OF THE BRITISH ISLES AFTER 30 ODD YEARS IN OFFICE GOVERNING THESE ISLES !!! WHAT A SORRY WEE MAN.
What I do see is a fractured Labour party, north and south of the border.
I just hope the good folk of Scotland have taken a long hard look at the Toom Tabard party.
Regarding the successor being more sympathetic to indy – come on folks, we’ve seen what happens on that one. The moment any Scottish branch manager opens that door a chink, they get stamped on – hard.
Remember Wendy Alexander’s “Bring it on” regarding an indy referendum back in 2008?
Remember Kez herself trying to shift the Scottish party stance last year?
This is the one issue where the branch manager status is made crystal clear: the Scottish party “leader” must toe the line on No to Indy, or else.
Neil Findlay, Corbyn’s right hand man in Scotland has ruled himself out of this leadership contest, according to the Graun.
link to archive.is
Kezia was never anything but a lassie who found herself in the Labour Party because initially she got a job in it and her pleasant and acceptable demeanour meant that she ended up leading it by default. She would have done the same for any organisation she was with.
The problem was never Kezia. It was and is the Labour Party in Scotland – the only organisation in the history of the “radical” left that has ever stood against the independence of its people.
History will not record it well. It will record how,when James Connolly, an ertswhile member of the Labour Party,was tied up to a chair, wounded and already dying,to be shot in Dublin in 1916 the Labour members in Westminster cheered. It will remember the “Red Clydesiders” who almost all succumbed eventually to the delights and norms of the establishment to the extent even of joining the House of Lords.
The late great Oliver Brown had words for them. “A shiver ran along the front bench of Labour in parliament looking for a spine to run up”.
We remember the feeble fifty and the wrecking of the first devolution campaign.
As for the radical left in Scotland that are supposedly but not apparently swarming to Corbyn Oliver Brtown has another acute observation “The value of a man of straw is that he shows which way the wind is blowing”
Keep an eye on Cat Boyd on a gusty day.
Andy-B
I think Craig Murray is taking the concerns of many in the indy movement and winding them way up to eleven and that that is a quite deliberate ploy on his part. i.e. he is acting as a goad.
He may be right that if and when Corbyn successfully purges Labour he will personally take a more rerlaxed view on Scottish independence. However, even if that were the case, I suspect the suits would soon put Corbyn right on that issue. Their post Brexit situation would be much worse without Scotland.
If there is a new SLAB leader who can create the illusion that SLAB has reverted to old Labour values, then we are in big trouble.
Doubt it was a plan more likely reaction. Anyway she is gone to be followed by someone as weak.
SNP need to get back to basics. Both Pete Wishart and John Swinney said this at N Perthsire CA. They are canvasinh members to see where they can help.
Branch structures too need some modernisingvwith new strategy and ideas folk at helm.
This will bring back disaffected and complacent.
Meanwhile bridge will have a great launch and future.
The to be renamed Scottish Independence Bridge.
According to the Daily Record article linked-to above, Kez’s accomplishments included “secur[ing] autonomy for the Scottish Labour Party”. The kind of autonomy that allowed her to pretend that BLiS were going to abolish Trident when in fact her boss in London had no such intention. The kind, in fact, which allowed her to jump instead of being straight pushed.
No wonder the article had no byline. Even yer average churnalist is too ashamed to pin their name to such a piece of vomit-inducing nonsense.
The article continued “It turned out that she was a far better leader than the Scottish Labour Party deserved.” That may be the one true sentence in the whole load of pish. And it will still be true for whichever third-rater replaces her.
Unless the whole Scottish Accounting Unit does a complete volte-face over independence in defiance of its London masters’ total antagonism, and asserts real and not pretendy autonomy, that is.
Can you really see that happening?
Craig Murray’s article critcising the SNP for accepting the status quo is only part true IMO.
He joins the large number of commenteers calling for another referendum NOW if not sooner. He overlooks the fact that the majority of Scottish voters voted NO 3 years ago.
BREXIT is only a game changer IF it happens. It hasn’t happened yet. Westminster will do whatever it takes to hang on to Scottish resources. That might include cancelling BREXIT.
I believe Nicola Sturgeon is by far the most competent politician in the UK. Alex Salmond is also very sharp. If demonstrating that an SNP government can deliver benefit for Scotland – even within the constraints of the devolution structure – then people will begin to imagine a future where self-determination is the norm and rule from Westminster a ball and chain.
Lose the cringe and self government becomes inevitable.
No Labour manager will ever support independence. Their role is to generate MPs for Westminster to get the party into government.
When they’re there they need Scotland’s resources to pay for whatever policies they think will keep them in power.
blairite, corbynista?…meh, irrelevant up north.
it will be anas sarwar. that is why he was parachuted into the plum list position for glasgow.
he is a unionist attack dog, sent by london to save the union, to out union ruth, a real nasty piece of work. holyrood labour is about to start plumbing unknown depths.
sarwar is the face of BT2 in indyref2
I really do think labour in Scotland is finished. Imagine JC did not even know Scotland has separate legal system and how much more can Scotland do to mitigate Westminster/labour austerity. Labour as much responsible when they can abstain and vote for it. He is badly misinformed and after 30 years in Parliament knows nothing about Scotland.
Neil Findlay would be a permanent headache for the Presiding Officer. Bring on Kelly – it would be good for a laugh and we can all sing sectarian songs for him. JB is too crafty and would never drink the poison chalice, she does not like too much scrutiny – after all you cannot say one thing to a public meeting and something else to parliament if you are leader – except of course if you are a tory, when you can really do as you like.
Did anyone else hear Kezia Dugdale saying that she “wants to leave when the Labour Party’s on its uppers.” A real faux pas! Seems to have been cut from later broadcasts and from this Scott Arthur video.
link to youtube.com
…………………………………………………..
It’s clear that Kezia Dugdale’s still incapable of telling the truth from bragging about her accomplishments as leader to her reasons for leaving. I find it particularly distasteful that in an attempt to do the latter she’s included a mention of the death of Gordon Aikman. The following comments are probably more in line with her reasons for leaving.
…”Pulled off a political assassination ….”
link to youtube.com
……………………………………………………….
What about Alex Rowley’s chances? And could he steer his party towards splitting with Westminster?
link to caltonjock.com
……………………………………………………
Jeremy Corbyn led the Labour Party campaign promising to accept the result of the EU referendum and to pull the UK out of the single market and customs union. He also sacked five of his front benchers – Gareth Thomas, Ruth Cadbury, Andy Slaughter, Catherine West and Daniel Zeichner – for actually voting to stay in the single market. He’s now done a U-turn by stating that his party wants to stay in the SM / CU for a transitional period (how long?). How’s that going to go down with his supporters and is it a sign that he’s still running scared from Blair?
……………………………………………….
‘Brexit – Labour Party Handbrake U-Turn Leaves a Smell of Burning Rubber in the Air.’
“…The Labour Party has just betrayed the 17.4 million people who voted for Brexit, the 70% of the British people who now want to see it delivered without delay, the 4 million Labour voters who voted for Brexit, and the 1.5 million UKIP voters who voted for him this year because they believed that he would stick to his word.
It’s no coincidence that this screaming U-turn comes only four days before Tony Blair is due to visit his ‘good friends’ on the EU’s negotiating team – presumably to assure them of Labour’s willingness to raise the white flag at the earliest opportunity.”…..
link to youtube.com
Well said Capella 🙂
@colin alexander says: 30 August, 2017 at 10:56 am:
“The SNP campaign was the worst ever. A total bloody mess. They DESERVED to be and should have been wiped off the WM political map.”
Dear God, Colin! Are you for real?
You don’t just seem to think out of the box and laterally – you think in a closed box and in ever decreasing circles with the inevitable resultant, rather dark and smelly, destination being reached very soon.
You seem totally unaware that the particular election you are commenting upon was, without doubt, “A GENERAL ELECTION.”
a.k.a. An election of the membership of“HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT OF HER UNITED KINGDOM PARLIAMENT?”
It was not an election about whether Scotland should hold a referendum or not hold a referendum. Nor was it even an election about whether there should be a Scottish independent government or not be an independent Scottish Government.
That signifies you are either one of the bloody idiots that the Westminster Establishment succeeded in making believe it was nothing to do with electing members of “HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT.” and all about Scottish referendums and independence or you are one of the Westminster Establishment’s propagandists.
There can be no other explanation for your particularly convoluted drivel. You are actually attempting to convince us that the only political party that fought the election upon the correct issues was the only one doing it wrongly, (and probably the YoonYoonist Propagandists did so out of sheer desperation as they have no other weapons at their disposal).
So, Colin, ‘fess up, are you a desperate YoonYoonist Propagandist or one of the fools who fell for their intransigence?
I’m so surprised you have the brass neck to still be commenting here that I’m breaking my own promise to myself to ignore your absolute twaddle. Hopefully I won’t ever do so again.
It seems to me that each SLAB leader is worse than the one before.
Can’t think of any decent replacement as they all have too much negative baggage.
Their raison d’etre is to oppose the SNP and nothing else.
Was Corbyn angry at the total debacle that was his visit north?
I read one labour insider suggested its was time for Ms Baillie to get the recognition she deserves.
What does that statement mean?
Is the insider suggesting Baillie was behind Dugdale’s decision to resign or are they proposing Baillie to be
the new leader of Labour in Scotland?
I had limited, admittedly, sympathy for Kez but doing this today of all days is, in my opinion also, spiteful and petty. She has disgraced herself.
Couldn’t care less about her. Seeing some who feel a wee bit sorry for her, why? She has been a disgrace, a shouty, selfish, twisting and turning on every so called policy. I would not feel one iota sorry for her, she even told people to vote Tory a few months ago, to keep the SNP from winning seats!
Labour are in turmoil, and it will not be resolved because they sold Scotland out, voted with the tories and have shown themselves to be establishment owned, in bed with the tories.
It indicates that they are not capable of doing an honest job, working for the people. You see, the people worked for them up until very recently, still do in rUK, but not in Scotland.
Devolution, Independence, the astutely effective SNP, have shown Labour up for what they are and were for a long time. Scotland would be like Wales if they were at the helm at Holyrood again. They would take a wrecking ball to all that has been achieved over the last 10 years.
It’s a shame, they oppose and refused to work with the SNP. More fool them, because their Tory pals will never return the favours Labour gave to them. Idiots.
The UKok is on a shoogly peg, desperately clinging on. Scotland cannot save the ‘union’, it just can’t and shouldn’t.
If SLAB had any brains, they’d be on their knees begging Wendy to come back…
Hello folks,
I’ve put a bit on o/t, can you have a look. I’m seeking some ideas/advice.
Cheerie
@ Dave McEwan Hill says at 12:24 pm ….
Great post Dave and I just love the quote …. ”The late great Oliver Brown had words for them. “A shiver ran along the front bench of Labour in parliament looking for a spine to run up”.
The Labour Party in a nutshell.
………………………………………………
Craig Murray? Let’s just wait and see what happens at the ANC on the 8th October.
……………………………………………….
Meanwhile some people are actually contributing in a MORE constructive way.
link to thenational.scot
Capella at 12.29
Yes. That was THREE Years ago and by a very small margin
Disagree almost entirely with what you say.
You mean you will give the Westminster establishment time to sort itself out of the mess it is currently in and prepare well for its next battle with Scotland. That’ll suit them fine. Why do you think they are squealing “No second referendum”?
It is because they know they will lose it and they need time.
And we’ll give it to them?
Petra says:
Craig Murray? Let’s just wait and see what happens at the ANC on the 8th October.
———————–
spot on Petra, what brexit will mean will become a lot clearer on that day.
God help you, if you need surgery in Wales under Labour.
link to archive.is
kez will now fade into the background…
in truth, she is a better speaker than kelly or rowley and more principled than sarwar, we are about to see that there is no limit to the depths that sarwar wont sink.
normally, she would fade into the background and then stand down at the next election in 2021, but we may very well hold indyref2 by then.
if anyone can be turned from no 2 yes, by her partner and/or her father, it is kez
so for me, i am happy to let her fade away, we have other fish to fry now
“Sub-D-List diddies…James Kelly having a tilt at it…”
You’re giving us some laughs today, Rev.
Perhaps another factor in her sudden demise was that Someone Down South, while gaming some scenarios, asked themselves the hypothetical question, “What if the Scottish Leaderene were to choose to get involved at some future date in a needless, damaging and doomed legal case with someone?”
But James Kelly? Really?
Bwahahahahahahahaha!
Kez. I reckon she was not very able for the task as leader. This says a lot about those who chose her.
Strange message there, where the leader of the UK party visits and rather than boost Scottish Labour accounting dept.
The Scottish leader stands down?
Haven’t heard Mr Corbyn’s comment about Kez leaving.was there one. JC onhis visit made a couple of bloomers of misunderstanding.
My prediction… Gordon Brown will step forward as Scottish Leader. Kezia will join SNP (that’s where she wanted to be in the first place)
I know there is some speculation that Kezia was pushed but what if after 5 days with Jeremy she simply decided “that is enough of that nonsense”.
i think peter bell calls it right
t – Today, 12:41 PM
In the end is my beginning. The motto of Mary, Queen of Scots, may yet apply to Kezia Dugdale whose resignation shocked Scottish politics to its core last night.
Peter A Bell’s insight:
Few things are better designed to arouse in me a sense of profound ennui than further accounts of factional squabbling within the far from serried ranks of British Labour in Scotland (BLiS). So Kezia Dugdale is gone. So what? What, if anything, does this imply for the pretendy wee party, for Scottish politics, and for what we may choose to generously characterise as a political career.
The most obvious thing to note is that, were they able to organise, there may now be enough BLiS ex-leaders to rank them among the largest of British Labour’s proliferating cliques. Which, sadly, may be sufficient to start rumours of an impending coup attempt.
On a more serious, if no less depressing note, what we can expect is that BLiS will replace Dugdale with someone even better qualified to lead them into into the political wilderness. Anas Sarwar comes immediately to mind. Few people better personify the ugly, bitter, hateful thing that BLiS has become. If not him, then someone who combines all the most reprehensible, and therefore most sought-after, qualities of his predecessors in the post. Vacuous. Disingenuous. Dissembling. Inept. Evasive. Unprincipled. Self-serving. Self-regarding. Self-aggrandising. Consumed with intellect crippling hatred of the SNP. Corrupted by resentment at assumed entitlement unjustly denied. Convinced that the electorate are at fault. The ideal candidate.
So! Pretty much no change as far as BLiS is concerned. Will the ground shake under Scottish politics as Dugdale stomps off? Why would it? What did she ever do? What did she achieve – for her ‘party’ or her country?
To be fair, she wasn’t in a position to achieve much. Being the ‘Scottish Labour Leader’ involves more constraints than capacities. At present, and for some time now, it mostly involves being Ruth Davidson’s sidekick. It means taking cues from the British Conservative & Unionist Party in Scotland (BCUPS). It means letting the Tories set the agenda. It means competing with the other British parties at Holyrood only in terms of who can be the most mindlessly anti-SNP and/or the most rabidly British nationalist.
All of which leaves little scope for ‘personal growth’. But we’ll come to that in a moment. For Scottish politics it will be more of the same. Only the names and faces change. The rhetoric remains the same. The script was written during the first referendum campaign. The British parties in Scotland have never strayed far from, and barely adapted or updated, the ‘smears and fears’ tactics of Project Fear. Whoever is appointed as the new North British office manager for Labour, they will be expected to drop smoothly into a role that is already strictly defined.
The only possibility of something vaguely interesting happening as a result of Dugdale’s resignation would be if Jeremy Corbyn chose to interfere. Sorry! I should say, intervene. He is the REAL party leader, of course. He is perfectly entitled to try and influence who represents HIS party in its former northern fastness.
It’s not clear how much Corbyn cares about what happens in Scotland, beyond basic electoral arithmetic. If awareness and knowledge of Scottish politics is evidence of concern then it’s clear he doesn’t give a toss. But he may be persuaded of the benefits of having a more totally tractable and obedient functionary in place. Not that Kezia was ever much of a nuisance to him. But having one of his own as BLiS leaderette might be useful.
Cue more factional squabbling. And more tedium for those of us who’ve seen it all before. But it’d give the British media a new toy to play with. Trying to light a spark of sensationalism in the damp ashes of an old-fashioned British party political leadership contest might even interrupt the flow of stories disparaging everything that looks, sounds or tastes in the slightest bit Scottish. For such brief but blessed relief, we might all be profoundly thankful.
And what about Kezia Dugdale? What is to become of her? I can’t quite see her doing a Fringe show. Although she’ll doubtless be guaranteed a nice we earner as a regular ‘political commentator’ on BBC Scotland. To the trammelled delight of licence fee payers, as you can surely imagine.
But is there a political role for her? I think there might be. I was recently asked what Kezia Dugdale might do to retrieve her political career. My answer was that,
“[S]he should stop taking her cues from Ruth Davidson. She should accept that Davidson has seized the crown and is immovably entrenched as Queen of the Britnats. She should stop being Davidson’s handmaiden and seek a position that distinguishes her from the increasingly rabid British nationalists.
“More specifically, Dugdale should abandon her intractable opposition to a new independence referendum. So long as she holds to this, she looks like nothing more than a pale reflection of Davidson. She sounds like she is just parroting Davidson’s line. It’s not a good look. It’s not something that voters want or need to hear.”
Now that really would be an interesting development!
@Andy-B says: 30 August, 2017 at 11:59 am:
Craig Murray has a go at the SNP, rightly? Or wrongly?
You decide.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Och! Why not! Seems to be the fashion now to blame the SNP for whatever the YoonYoonists are doing.
That, of course, is exactly what the YoonYoonists want everyone to do. The YoonYoonists haven’t disguised their intentions to do this as the first of all set the scene with that campaign they ran on their propaganda machine a while back when every second word was, “divisiveness”, and every first word, “division”.
Yet is seems to have gone, “Whoosh”, over everyone’s head that for divisiveness there has to be at least two different views and those differing views are what divides the opposing views. One set of views among others cannot be divisive.
Yet here we are with the World and its neighbours all blaming the SNP. Seems the Westminster Establishment wins again.
Corbyn, what did he expect when he flounced up to Scotland last week? It was an embarassment to their pretendy lefty party. Labour have swung too far to the right, and lied through their teeth to keep people voting for them, and it still wasn’t enough to win them the GE.
Labour lost their way a long time ago.
According to BBC shortbread news, Alex Rowley will not contest the leadership of the SLAB branch office.
@ Dave McEwan Hill says at 1:04 pm …. ”You mean you will give the Westminster establishment time to sort itself out of the mess it is currently in and prepare well for its next battle with Scotland. That’ll suit them fine. Why do you think they are squealing “No second referendum”? It is because they know they will lose it and they need time. And we’ll give it to them?”
Dave I don’t see the SNP stance as one of giving Westminster time to sort itself out, rather just waiting until their position, more so the EU’s position, on the trade deal becomes clear (clearer) following the resolution of EU Nats situation, divorce bill and NI border.
When Nicola Sturgeon was questioned recently on Corbyn’s U-Turn in relation to the SM / CU and a transitional period. She said ”In the Single Market / Customs Union …. PERIOD, forget about a transitional period.” She’s not about to get hoodwinked with their ‘transitional period’ and let this drag on.
We ARE going to win the next Referendum, in the very NEAR future, no doubt about that. As you say even they know it.
O/T…Misreporting Scotland…1-30pm
Yay!….Yes-Bikers on the Quesnsferry Crossing.
i remember saying a few weeks ago the new tactic – the tried and tested divide and rule ploy was starting to surface ,What better way of presenting this than through trusted messengers those who no one would suspect had any underlying agenda .
Devious b/trds these unionists , never to be trusted .
An unremarkable politician with an unenviable legacy.
Exit stage left and the rest is silence.
Why are we waiting to see what kind of brexit there will be? Hard or soft or any kind of brexit, is still Scotland being taken from the EU when the majority voted to stay in.
If the Westminster government is concentrating on pleasing the very small majority who voted for brexit, why are the SNP not fighting for our large majority who voted to stay? They seem to be trying to please everybody in Scotland by going for a good deal. That will never work. There will always be people unhappy with what their government do, but surely the elected government should go along with what the majority voted for and which is what put them in government?
The majority of Scots voted to stay in the EU, they voted in the majority for the SNP to do this. The only way is Independence
@ Dave McEwan Hill – the timing of a second referendum is crucial. Too early and we lose for decades to come.
The SNP has a mandate now because of the change in material circumstances – being taken out of Europe against our will. But we’re not out of Europe yet. Nor are the terms of BREXIT clear, and they won’t be until October 2018 (barring UK crashing out early or some other manufactured crisis).
It can never be too late for Independence, but if we want to do it soon, democratically, with the majority of the population supporting it then we have to choose the right time. The relative success of the Tory GE campaign in Scotland solely on a “No Referendum” ticket is proof that people can be fooled into voting for that.
I have no doubt that, if Nicola were to call a referendum in 3 months time, Westminster would find a way of not leaving the single market *just yet* and saying we can have the best of both worlds, have our cake and eat it. A great many Scottish voters would fall for that as we saw in 2014.
What the SNP is doing is building the case for Independence in the best way it can. Everyone else can do the same.
Thank heavens we’re getting the annual Scottish Labour leadership contest back again. I really missed it last year.
On the timing, I disagree with Stu. She did at least time it so the evening bulletins were out of the way and the Queensferry Crossing got the coverage it deserved (complete with snidey negativity from the usual suspects). It was never going to be as big a story today.
Perhaps the prospect of losing a legal battle to a mad indy blogger was on her mind and how damaging and humiliating that would have been for the party. Now, it will just be a back bencher who has to pay up!
@ Andy-B says at 1:38 pm …. ”According to BBC shortbread news, Alex Rowley will not contest the leadership of the SLAB branch office.”
Findlay’s not interested and now Rowley. I reckon that Corbyn and the Unions orchestrated this so surely had someone in mind before they gave the Head of their ‘autonomous’ Accounting Unit the heave-ho. Sarwar (et al) is a Blairite so who’s left? Richard Leonard? Is he willing to grab the baton … eh, poisoned chalice … and run with it?
/www.scottishlabour.org.uk/people/entry/richard-leonard
Ooops!
link to scottishlabour.org.uk
Petra
”The late great Oliver Brown had words for them. “A shiver ran along the front bench of Labour in parliament looking for a spine to run up”.
I have paraphrased that in the past into
‘An electron ran along the SLAB front bench looking for a neuron to fire on.’ 🙂
Just imagine how Kezia (and Ruth) would have faired if Scotland had a balanced, free, and honest media, especially the BBC!
Their residual position owes everything to a media Hell bent on supporting Unionists, any Unionists.
As for Labour (North British sub branch) itself, I hope they choose a complete pillock! At this time in its history, Scotland needs a pillock in that position more than ever.
Guardian was reckoning Sarwar. That would be the pits. They would sink even further. Good news for us though (and Col. Davidson).
It’s becoming clearer then that this was a personal and sudden decision and she had no successor in mind and had not discussed it with her party.
petra, right on cue it the times
Brexit trade negotiations: May set to bypass Brussels and talk nation to nation…..
to be clearer, for trade negotiations, read transitory trade agreements for certain industries, the only thing that will stop the uk hitting the ground with a sickening crunch as it falls off the brexit cliff.
this comment was in response to barnier and others in the eu about the uk failing to make progress on the 3 main issues, (NI border, EU citizens & final uk payment) a pre equisit to the start of any transitory trade agreement talks after 8th Oct.
I’m not sure if treeza had any intentions of making progress on these 3 issues, indeed, i’m not sure if she was ever in a position to do so,
but we now know that on the 8th oct, the eu will refuse to start any transitory trade agreement negotiations.
what happens then?
genuine question, if the uk storms out of negotiations, will the uk still be in the eu until spring 2019? i know this 2 year time period can be extended, but can it be cut short?
@ Chick McGregor says at 1:58 pm …. ”Petra the late great Oliver Brown had words for them. “A shiver ran along the front bench of Labour in parliament looking for a spine to run up”.
I have paraphrased that in the past into ‘’An electron ran along the SLAB front bench looking for a neuron to fire on. ?”
Ha, ha, ha Chick. Spot on. A veritable classic. Now tell me if the electron found ONE.
…………………………………………….
Labour’s building legacy in Scotland.
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
………………………………………..
And more good news from Prof Robertson.
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
…………………………………………
And so proud to be Scottish. Wha’s like us?
link to thenational.scot
Tatu3
i sympathise with this view, but the eu has already said that an indy scotland would need to apply as a new nation under article 49.
in practice, scotland would be accepted very very quickly, (nb. there isnt a cue) but may still need a 2 year period in the trm before being accepted.
scotland is leaving the eu eitherway
best we can do is to tie efta/eea membership to a yes vote in indyref2 with the promise of another euref once independent.
nb, only 3 options required on euref ballot paper.
1. status quo, (remain as efta/eea member)
2. swedish type eu membership, ie keep our own currency
3. full eu membership and adopt the euro.
regardless of which, eu membership is a decision for after we are independent.
focus on indyref2 for now
SLAB need to bring in a big beast from Westminster you know someone who can talk about football, likes irn bru……Oh wait 🙁
It is hard to see who could do anything with Slab, if this was down to Corbyn, he might have something up his sleeve.
However it goes, I cannot see anyone within Slab ranks who has the capacity to turn it around.
Will just fall apart with more defections, until it is not there.
@ Robert Peffers
Nicola is bothered by the SNP being the Scottish National Party.
I can understand that: The SNP should be renamed The RAJ.
Colonial administrators for the British Govt.
That’s all they do at Holyrood: administer WM British power and stop the natives from having a mutiny.
They call it devolution.
The SNP love being the British Raj.
Independence is just something the subjugated natives think about.
I’ve come across a post on the National’s letter page from Robert Ingram, Centre for Scottish Constitutional Studies, Glasgow – ”This key blueprint can help us to win Indyref2.”
I can’t copy it so in brief they are reviewing a draft Constitution for Scotland and want the ‘people’ to get involved. If you’re interested contact:
http://www.scottishconstitution.scot
Could we all STOP responding to the pillock PLEASE.
The National has been covering Independence movements in Europe and in England. Excellent articles covering Flanders, Aland, Faroe Islands, the Isle of Man, Cornwall, Yorkshire etc, etc. So we’re not on our own, lol!
Just to mention too that family and friends in Australia say that there’s a really big move on with Australians wanting to dump the UK / Monarchy altogether.
‘Wha’s Like Us: The independence movements of England.’
link to thenational.scot
On Kezia Dugdale’s resignation.
Just a wee reminder of the state of Labour in Scotland.
In March this year Ian Murray the Labour MP for Edinburgh South stated:
“Often asked why I resigned from the Shadow Cabinet. Ladies and Gentlemen I give you Jeremy Corbyn. He’s destroying the party.”
May next. Then Davidson. Westminster are a laughing stock.
@ Dorothy Devine says at 2:38 pm …. ”Could we all STOP responding to the pillock PLEASE.”
Totally agree Dorothy. Let’s nip it in the bud right now.
……………………………………..
Seems that Richard Leonard is interested in being the Head of England’s Labour Party Accounting Unit in Scotland.
link to thenational.scot
link to scottishlabour.org.uk
schrodingers cat @ 14:17,
There you go again. The EU situation is still developing, with who knows what solutions that may be offered to keep an independent Scotland on board, and here you are back once again peddling your hoary old EEA/EFTA line. For someone who claimed to be in the SNP, you don’t seem to have any notion that the party’s affirmed policy is for Scotland to be in – and stay in – the EU. Period.
It’s this kind of wanton kite-flying from people in the SNP whose only effect is to make ordinary people confused and demoralised. Mixed messages that just have to stop.
Please stop selling a future, and dubious multi-question referenda of your own devising, that may never happen and instead focus on the bloody day job. An independence referendum. No more, no less.
Simone says:
30 August, 2017 at 10:48 am
[Blockquote]
Re the timing. Who cares? The bridge is beautiful and will outlast the next 20(0?) Slab leaders.
[/Blockquote]
I hope the bridge says up longer than 20 Slab leaders. At the current rate they go through them that would only take us up to about 30 years from now.
The main reason their is no major talent seeking to take over the Labour branch leadership in Scotland, is simply that. It is a branch office, refused ‘permission’ to do anything differently by the REAL leader of Labour in London.
So, no matter who takes over, the result will continue to be the same. Even the most talented of politician would have no success in the role, since no matter how hard they worked to develop policies and strategies aimed at Scottish voters, they would simply be told ‘NO’ by the management in London.
I do not doubt for one second, this is the REAL reason Dugdale appeared to ‘flip-flop’ on policies over and over again. She likely could see the policies needed up here, but London said NO.
As such the position of Labour ‘leader’ in Scotland is a fraud. It is a charade, designed to make Scots voters ‘think’ Labour is offering them ‘Scottishy’ solutions and policies, when in reality, it offers nothing but London inspired sh*te. It is nothing short of a cynical fraud conceived in London by those in Labour HQ who know little of Scotland or its politics.
If Labour truly were a genuine separate Scottish party, they would have embraced the notion of independence for Scotland, and would be coming up with their own vision for a modern progressive Scotland, that would serve as a socialist beacon to the rest of the rUK and Europe. The opportunities for growing their party would be huge.
But Labour in Scotland is nothing of the kind. It is merely a branch office, with pretensions of grandeur, which dances to a London master’s tune, regurgitating the ill-informed policies of those in England. Doffing its cap to the ‘big boys’ in the ‘big boy Parliament’ in London, England. Stuck in the post-imperial delusions we currently find in the mind of Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May. Empire 2.0, and all that. Aye, right.
The whole world looks on and laughs.
Meant to say that there’s a draft Constitution for Scotland outlined on their site which you can take a look at. It commences with:
”We, the people of Scotland, being the supreme sovereign authority in Scotland, grant the Parliament of Scotland the authority to govern the people and territory of Scotland in accordance with the following Constitution:”
http://www.scottishconstitution.scot
I see STV put Monica Lennon alongside Sarwar and Leonard just what we need another pointy shouty wifie every Thursday.
Who is Richard Leonard? (genuine question) I can’t recall ever seeing him before.
Thanks Rev, great piece
harry mcaye at 1:52 pm says:
“a mad indy blogger”
Why does that statement conjure up a picture of hammers 😉
Now now. While the SNP and Labour fight away, the Tories make hay.
Lest we forget, the main problem for Scotland is the Tories these days, the Indy Ref and 2015 saw the end to the Labour hegemony.
Petra.
“Ha, ha, ha Chick. Spot on. A veritable classic. Now tell me if the electron found ONE.”
Feynmans ‘Sum over histories’ QED theory says the electron sniffed out every conceivable path possible. At once. Everywhere in the universe.
It must have. Unlikely, but must have.
@ HandandShrimp says at 3:11 pm …. ”Who is Richard Leonard? (genuine question) I can’t recall ever seeing him before.”
‘Richard Leonard’s Speech at Scottish Labour Party Conference 2010.’
link to youtube.com
…………………………………..
link to scottishlabour.org.uk
“Leonard, a member of Campaign for Socialism, a group closely aligned with the pro-Corbyn movement Momentum”.
John McTernan is in Momentum.
Robert P at 128pm,
You know, the thing about Craig Murray’s piece, is that it does make a real point. The SNP SHOULD at every opportunity be spelling out the advantages of independence. But they don’t. They, including the FM, seem silent on the subject.
It is healthy, for people to perhaps disagree on some things. I personally think Craig is correct on that point. Independence is a word rarely if ever uttered by the FM or ANY SNP MSP’s. It is a bit like not saying ‘voldemort’ or something.
Why?
I can’t fathom it. Even if you do not wish to hold a referendum right now, their is still every reason to promote Scottish independence.
On the SNP website, it says this, on independence;
“We will achieve independence only when a majority of our fellow citizens are persuaded that it offers the best future for our country. Our success will depend on the strength of our arguments and the clarity of our vision. So we will undertake new work to persuade a majority of the Scottish people that independence is the best future for our country.”
So how will the SNP persuade people that independence is the best thing for Scotland if they, including the FM, do not talk about it? Seriously. Will it happen by magic?
With the brexit nonsense underway, every single SNP MSP, should be answering questions about the subject with words similar to the following, ‘Well, Scotland would not be getting dragged out of the EU against its wishes, if we were independent. Only if we are independent can we stop the brexit lunacy…etc..’.
Indeed, I have often thought that Scottish independence would also halt brexit in England.
What we currently have is an SNP that refuses to talk about its number one policy, and the reason the party was founded.
Regardless of when a referendum is called, the current silence on the subject of independence really won’t do,and Craig is not alone in his view on this.
@ Susanne 1.28 Your attempting to build a bridge to far , there is no chance Gordon Brown will enter into a leadership contest, as for Kezia joining the SNP that is ah rib-tickler an they rib-tickler’s hinae been in ah fairgrun for donkeys years ( they did’t meet health an safety requirements neither does Kezia
Petra says:
Spot on! 🙂
You’ll see her again… in court I expect. Not over till it’s over.
Is it right that Tom Gordon is going for Labour North leadership ?
Thought he was a Tory ? Oh its the same thing nowadays .. Fair enough.
Know little about this Labour party (Scottish region) apparatchik but enough about the organisation she represents to know that it belongs in the same ‘ultramontane’ Unionist box as the Tories, DUP, Lib Dems and Ukip. Scots who oppose independence are not just reactionaries they appear to have existential problems with their own identity. The latter abberation is not a new phenomenon in our culture but by now the problem should be lessening and not being promoted by the likes of swashbuckling Davidson and her ageing Daily Mail troopers.
In our fight with this tendency we should take no prisoners.
Mibbes Kezia ask the Slab fur ah whiproon to pay fur her impending court costs an goat a knock back. Thats the value of the valueless .
It doesn’t matter one jot who becomes Slabs new leader, because it will be the same old total hatred for the SNP.
It’s high time Slab took a good look at itself and buried their blinkered outlook that they have followed for decades.
I support the SNP, I also will take on board any polices from any of the other political parties in Scotland so long as they have a positive outcome for my fellow citizens.
As said on many occasions over the years Slab will NEVER credit the SNP, its high time they grew up and became REAL politicians, after all that’s what they are paid to do.
Message for their new leader “Take Your Head Out Of The Sand”
A few people calling Colin Alexander a troll, a pillock etc when Craig Murray’s blog actually echoes a lot of what he’s been saying and many comments on the blog agree. Maybe the Indy movement IS losing direction under the SNP. It’s certainly frustrating times.
robert
of course the snp want to stay in the eu, that doesnt change the fact that we are presently in a process of being taken out of the eu, and that the eu has stated that an indy scotland would need to apply to join the eu under article 49 as a new member state
the rest of your comment is a rant
LOLZ, comments on the Indy movement here.
First the SNP is proceeding with all its plans, Government of Scotland, plans and policies for Brext, preparing for Ind Referendum.
The Yes movement has articles in the National and several blog sites with policies for currency and the constitution. Movement is being made on debunking GERS with discussions by real economists.
There is Wings with massed information and analysis articles.
There are some ‘concerned Yessers’ here, and if you are not engaged in the above activities or positively informing yourself then you are simply trolling or fake commentators.
@ defo says at 3:20 pm …. ”Feynmans ‘Sum over histories’ QED theory says the electron sniffed out every conceivable path possible. At once. Everywhere in the universe. It must have. Unlikely, but must have.”
In light of the situation in relation to those who sit on the Labour seats at Holyrood, Edinburgh, Scotland, Feynman’s theory may have to be revisited, defo. Another first for Scotland? Wha’s like us. LOL.
………………………………………….
@ Robert Louis says at 3:28 pm …. ”So how will the SNP persuade people that independence is the best thing for Scotland if they, including the FM, do not talk about it? Seriously. Will it happen by magic?”
To convince people that Independence is the best option for Scotland Robert, Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP would have to get into outlining our future currency, GERS figures, pensions etc. Why would she / they do that right now? Give the MSM months to pull everything apart. I reckon that she’ll wait until the Brexit trade deal is clarified to some extent (not fully of course), propose a date for the next Referendum followed by doing exactly what you, and I, want them to do. Then of course the debates will begin with the MSM / Politicians / Establishment figures / lovies from down south / foreign leaders / Military experts / Security Services etc, etc, using every dirty trick in the book to convince us that Independence is not viable. Why encourage them to pop their heads up above the parapet right now? More than anything start scunnering those Scottish No voters, Brexiteers, sitting on the fence types who are awaiting clarification that the Brexit deal is going to be brilliant.
……………………………………………
Meanwhile she plods on getting the day job done. Based at Pacific Quay with the SG contributing £475,000 in start-up funding.
‘Nicola Sturgeon’s plays supporting role as the National Film and Television School plans new Glasgow base.’
link to thenational.scot
Is that how it works Brian? Mild dissenters or people concerned about the direction we are heading are trolling or fake commentators? I didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.
Leonard is a hardcore yoon. Him and the Tank commander would be mind numbing.
Craig Murray is spot on. Fighting Scotland’s corner in the Union is a good thing but it’s not THE thing.
Think the problem is that the SNP have to at least be seen to play the unionist game and do the best they can in the union. It’s then up to us to highlight how no matter how sensible their actions are unionist parties will go out of their way to wreck them simply out of spite. For example charging the emergency services VAT and setting out to abolish rather than amend OFBA.
Remember how the last independence referendum ended, the sudden offer of Devo-Max when it seems a Yes victory was in sight.
THE M8 FOR INDEPENDENCE
Independence appears to me at least, to be an evolving but uneven process.
Fear smear and a bribe won the day for No in 2014 so the short and sweet method has gone.
We are now on the road to Independence in much the same way as driving along the M8 heading east ends up in the Capital. I may not know how far it is or how long it will take, but it is certain that as long as I stay on the M8 I will arrive in Edinburgh.
Westminster, the Tories in particular, are trying very hard to stop us reaching our destination by making the journey difficult, but as long as we stay on the M8, no matter the difficulties along the way, we’ll get there. A few potholes or a few bogus signs erected by the Unionists will not deter or divert us, as long as we stay on the ‘M8’ to Independence.
Now I get that some people, sometimes, disagree with the bus driver, myself included, but the SNP is the only political vehicle we have so it doesnt make a lot of sense to attack the driver. Argue with him by all means, attack – no – thats what the Unionists do 24/7, and they would dearly love yes voters to start doing the same.
Its another big crack in the yoon dam. Its nice to think BBC Scotland crew are all wondering how they got it so wrong with Kez. God knows these reprobates alone put so much into selling her as the greatest thing since ever.
Lab in Wales catastrophe. If SLab really can get back in here, we’re all fcuked.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Kezia’s epitaph from her own mouth. In the Brian Wilson interview she said that she had taken on the leadership of Slab when the party was on its knees and she is leaving it when it is on its uppers.
When I first heard it I burst out laughing and then doubted my ears. But when I listened again it was what she said. I burst out laughing again.
I think somebody at the BBC twigged because an edited version of the interview was shown latterly. Shame.
Her timing is out, though. A few days earlier and it could have been nominated for the Best Joke of the Festival competition.
For anybody feeling sorry for Kez losing her post as Leader let them not forget that she has several years as an MSP before the next Scottish GE with the substantial salary and expenses that go with that.
Meanwhile she can sit on the back benches and watch the fun as Nicola dismantles her successor every thursday at FMQs.
Oops!
link to bbc.co.uk
Surgery waiting times up by 400% in Wales since 2013
2 hours ago
From the section Wales
O/T
For years our wonderful media have been relentless in telling us that the EURO has been and is a disaster and how smart the UK government was not to join it.
When one looks at it the only countries who have suffered from being in the Euro are those with profligate and irresponsible governments.
The rest of those who joined the Euro seem to be quite happy with it and we have even had this week Romania applying to join.
Does it not therefore make sense for the future iScotland to either join the Euro or have its own currency pegged to the Euro rather than having anything to do with the Pound which is in the process of heading down the Swanee with Brexit.
Going by auntie beeb, Harriet Harman has said Jeremy Corbyn should appoint a new leader… so is that for the branch office or doesn’t she know it’s Scottish labour… what a mess
Macjim says:
30 August, 2017 at 5:05 pm
Going by auntie beeb, Harriet Harman has said Jeremy Corbyn should appoint a new leader…
Why not. JC almost certainly made the last one an offer she couldn’t refuse.
The assumption is that Corbyn wasn’t briefed, but maybe he was but just doesn’t care enough to read it. Labour consider that winning legitimate power at WM is about holding the majority in England.
As for those contemplating Dugdale changing sides, as a list MSP this would seem unlikely unless she wants to give up her seat.
@ gus1940 says at 4:57 pm ….. ”Does it not therefore make sense for the future iScotland to either join the Euro or have its own currency pegged to the Euro rather than having anything to do with the Pound which is in the process of heading down the Swanee with Brexit.”
Gus have a listen to this in particular around 11:44 in.
link to taxresearch.org.uk
I was sorry to see Kes go, I thought there is a danger someone competent could take over the British Nationalist red branch office.
Then I saw the list of potential new leaders.
Laugh, I almost pissed myself.
Rogues Gallery
:large
The Guardian’s professional liar of the Year Severin C’s quite funny. To be fair Seve is trying hard but you just know that the harder gits like this lie, the exact opposite of what they’re printing really happened. This kind of, “rallies across the country often to packed venues” is very stinky old Graun.
“Her announcement came only two days after Corbyn finished a high-profile tour of 18 Scottish constituencies, staging rallies across the country often to packed venues, which suggested his leadership and policies had become far more popular among supporters and voters.”
@ AAD says at 4:47 pm …. ”Kezia’s epitaph from her own mouth. In the Brian Wilson interview she said that she had taken on the leadership of Slab when the party was on its knees and she is leaving it when it is on its uppers. When I first heard it I burst out laughing and then doubted my ears. But when I listened again it was what she said. I burst out laughing again.
I think somebody at the BBC twigged because an edited version of the interview was shown latterly. Shame. Her timing is out, though. A few days earlier and it could have been nominated for the Best Joke of the Festival competition.”
Yeah leaving it when it’s on it’s uppers, lol, spot on. My husband and I heard it too AAD, first thing this morning and nearly fell off of our chairs.
I see that her pal Scott Arthur has edited it out!
link to youtube.com
How’s she gonnae afford twenty-five grand noo?
jfngw
Will she have to give up her seat?
Wasn’t there a Tory MP (Douglas Carswell) who changed sides and became the only UKIP MP for a while and has now reverted back to the tories…
I’ve heard the Richard Leonard name touted about…
Can’t say I really care too much today – too happy with the new bridge and everything about it. WOW!!!
I read that Judy Murray has won her appeal re the tennis/golf centre outside Dunblane.
Just been reported on the BBC website about 40 minutes ago.
@Brian Powell
Hooray for the Yessers. Hooray for WoS and commenters on here who speak up for Scotland’s right for self-determination.
Where is the SNP and Scot Govt in all of this though? Nowhere to be seen.
@colin alexander
I know Nicola Sturgeon comments on here under the name “Paula Rose”. Fact.
Actually Colin, I am Nicola Sturgeon.
@ Macjim says at 5:05 pm …. ”Going by auntie beeb, Harriet Harman has said Jeremy Corbyn should appoint a new leader… so is that for the branch office or doesn’t she know it’s Scottish labour… what a mess.”
Speaks volumes. What happened to the ”Proud to have delivered real autonomy for the Scottish Labour Party and a guaranteed voice for Scotland and Wales on the NEC”, as stated in Kezia Dugdale’s letter of resignation. A wee porky-pier right up until the end. Try still trying to con the Scots. Seems to be suffering from delusions of grandeur, to boot.
Alex Rowley tells a TOTALLY different story in relation to the English Labour Party’s wee Scottish Accounting Unit.
link to caltonjock.com
………………………………………………….
Dear Linda,
As Chair of the party, I am writing to you today to resign as Leader of the Scottish Labour Party.
It has been an honour and a privilege to have served this party in a leadership position for the last two and a half years, covering four national elections and one referendum.
I have worked with many great people, not least the staff in our HQ led by Brian Roy and those in the Scottish Parliament, whose boundless energy, expertise and good humour has guided our party through some dark hours and difficult times.
I’d like to thank my shadow cabinet for their efforts, and in particular Iain Gray for his unflinching love and support and James Kelly for the thankless but crucial job he does so well as our Business Manager.
Never waste a moment
Earlier this year I lost a dear friend who taught me a lot about how to live. His terminal illness forced him to identify what he really wanted from life, how to make the most of it and how to make a difference. He taught me how precious and short life was and never to waste a moment.
Being leader has always been a difficult but fulfilling challenge. One that until now I have enjoyed, driven by a clear guiding purpose and goals, many of which I have achieved.
I am proud of the fact that I’ve demonstrated how the parliament’s powers can be used to stop austerity with progressive taxes and the creation of new benefits. Proud to have advanced the call for federalism across the UK. Proud to have delivered real autonomy for the Scottish Labour Party and a guaranteed voice for Scotland and Wales on the NEC.
Educational inequality is the number one issue in Scottish politics after the constitution because Scottish Labour under my leadership put it there.
I am proud to have delivered 50/50 slates of amazing and diverse candidates in both the Scottish and U.K. Elections and equally proud to have invested in the next generation of labour activists and parliamentarians with leadership programmes. These have already furnished us with two of our magnificent seven MPs. With that re-established Scottish Labour group at Westminster, and a talented and effective group in Holyrood, Scottish Labour has a bright future.
Marker of success
A marker of success for me was to leave as leader with the party in better shape than I found it and I have done that.
Emerging from the challenging times following the 2014 referendum, and the 2015 UK election, we now have a solid platform on which to build towards success, and government.
I have given the task of achieving this all that I have. But with nearly four years now until the next Scottish Parliament elections, I am convinced that the party needs a new leader with fresh energy, drive and a new mandate to take the party into that contest.
I will continue as a Labour MSP for the Lothians and am already looking forward to spending more time with constituents and on constituency issues.
Too often our leaders leave in a crisis, with scores to settle. I love this party too much for that to be my way. There will be no press conference and no off the record briefing in my name. I choose to stand down because I believe it is best for me and best for Scottish Labour, at a time when we can be positive and optimistic about our future.
I remain in awe of all those party activists who devote their time to this movement without pay or reward. I thank them for their belief in me.
Yours in solidarity,
Kez Dugdale
BBC Radio Hootsman, just had David Torrance on asking his learned opinion on the departure of Dugdale.
Torrance said that Dugdale was the credible side of the SLAB. Radio Hootsman, is tipping Anas Sarwar as the new branch manager. Wasn’t he comprehensively rejected by the voter?
@Meg Merrilees
Different voting system, you vote for the person not the party. Same with constituency MSP’s, but list MSP’s are votes for a party not an individual. Can’t see how you can retain a list seat if you change parties as this is then not reflecting the regional list vote.
Ok I have to own up – actually I am Nicola Sturgeon- gee wiz you can’t keep a bloody secret here.
I should have known that sluth Alexander would have caught on in the end . Honest Gov . It’s true
@ jfngw at 5.13
She wouldn’t have to; in the last Holyrood term, 3 SNP MSPs, John Finnie, Jean Urquhart and (a bit later) John Wilson all resigned and became independents for the rest of the parliament – because they disagreed with the change of policy over NATO membership.
Whatever you may think of their choice, it is clearly possible to do that. They were all list MSPs. Perhaps if they had actually represented another party while in office, things would have been different, though I doubt it. JF did join the Greens, but classified himself as independent until 2016, when he was re-elected as a Green. JW also joined the Greens; JU joined Rise – neither was re-elected.
As Meg merrilees said, the same is true at Westminster, where it is rather more common – when the SDP was formed only one ex-Labour MP contested a by-election. He lost, which probably ensured that the others didn’t bother.
@colin alexander
I am Nicola Sturgeon. Give it up Colin your arguments are weak.
Petra
Amazing resignation letter from Kezia there. I would say the only thing to add would be, ‘However, not any of that’.
Sorry if this is obvious but why not do a May and call Hollyrood election run as independence campaign and dont hold back I have seen enough to believe it is winnable. Put our hearts and minds into it and we can and will win.
@schrodingers cat / Brian Powell
By your logic, Craig Murray is “simply trolling or fake commentators”.
Right, I’ll take that one on board …
Let’s hope Sarwar is their new leader.
The eejit who just keeps on giving.
Would You Christmas Eve It.
According to Jonathan Reedland in the Grauniad during his visit to Scotland last week Corbyn played to packed houses in 18 constituencies.
Isn’t the new bridge ‘The Saltire Bridge’, excellent. It just looks great alongside the others.
What a pathetic servile bunch of rats these labour pigs are!!
O/T …Misreporting Scotland
The Queensferry Crossing to be 5th (FIFTH) in the news agenda tonight.
Just took at look online to see what came up when searching for the new Forth Road bridge, mostly negative from right wing yoons, costing £billions, behind schedule, blah blah.
Wiki interesting. Seems to omit that the britnats at Holyrood were opposed to the new bridge, but sights various environmental groups as opposing it, umbrella name of, ‘Forthrightalliance’, who don’t seem to exist anymore.
It does say that plans were ‘shelved after the 1997, Labour GE victory’.
Maybe some with more knowledge can add to the write up on it?
So anyone know what is being shown on the britnat news? Dugdale, or the bridge?
John Thomson at 601pm
Sadly, the Scottish Government has no power to call an election – unless they vote for their own no confidence motion in themselves, and no other Government can be assembled from the other parties in Holyrood. (I think I have that right).
Anyway, Nicola Sturgeon cannot just call an election.
Just another example of how ‘The Vow’ was NEVER delivered.
Artyhetty… 6-32pm
Think you can guess the answer to that one…as I type….Britnat Broadcasters are on their 3rd item (bashing SNP education) as I type….they allocated 10 mins to KEZIA….and as I type they are onto item 7….STILL NO QUEENSFERRY MENTION!!!
I see that my response to Robert Louis and defo has disappeared into the ether!
…………………………………
STV reporting big problems with the QC. Tail backs. It’s attracting too many drivers! Next up it’ll be attracting to many tourists.
……………………………………….
Some great articles in the National again. In fact Richard Murphy seems to be a regular now.
‘Richard Murphy: Nothing can better shape a society for the benefit of its people than a fair tax system.’
link to thenational.scot
And ….
‘How an independent Scotland could design a radical tax system that works for all.’
link to thenational.scot
This all but sums up Scotland’s position, are we a colony or nation? the Sewel Convention ruling, sadly points to the former.
link to newsnet.scot
approaching 6-50PM and only mention was ‘long delays’….no news item as yet…..un-fekin-believable.
@Crazycat
The parliament would not then be reflecting the regional vote, it may be the case but it is then not democratic regarding the regional vote. If I vote for a party I want the list to reflect the party vote not the inclinations of the individual who I have not voted for. If a list MSP wants to change party then they should be forced to resign.
What is then to stop a whole group of list MSP’s deciding to change party and change the result of an election. This would be government decided by non directly elected MSP’s.
It is the case for MP and constituency MSP’s as you have actually voted for that person, they can do what they want party wise.
I’ve not been able to find any specific rule on this from searching online, maybe my search criteria is not good enough.
6-51pm…and they finally decide to tell the good news story…oh hang on!
…its DOOM N’ GLOOM….huge traffic delays….Bad SNP.
Let’s hope it is Sarwar, the eejit who just keeps on giving.
If you’ve ever doubted what shitty little creeps tory hacks are…
link to archive.is
I am so kicking myself I used to pay into their ghastly UKOK grot.
Ch4 NEWS.
The above will be covering the SLAB story in 10-15 mins.
@ jfngw
I’ve not managed to find anything either, yet – I’ll keep looking.
Meanwhile, this which I came across instead is quite interesting; although he was wrong in his predictions for Edinburgh Central, the point about all but one of the candidates potentially being elected is true and not ideal, I think:
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
gus1940 says:
30 August, 2017 at 6:13 pm
Would You Christmas Eve It.
According to Jonathan Reedland in the Grauniad during his visit to Scotland last week Corbyn played to packed houses in 18 constituencies.
………………………..
They were single-ends
Will be interesting to see Alex Thompson’s (Ch4) take on the Great Kez Kapitulation…now…CH4 NEWS.
I’m not at all surprised That Kezia has resigned as Labour leader in Scotland. She never was a leader in the first place hence all the chopping and changing. She tried her best but had her orders and when push came to shove she buckled.
Going from Yes the Labour Party can have a free vote on Independence if party members want to. Then to the total opposite No More Referendums. Does not compute.
Or I’m supporting Owen Smith for Labour leader as Jeremy Corbyn is a useless old fart and can never win Labour a General Election. To, ell done Jeremy on your success in 2017 and welcome to Scotland where we worship the ground that you walk on.
No one can get away with that amount of hypocrisy and deceit. She has done the right thing and bitten the bullet. See you Kezia when you get over your disappointment, come back and post on Wings with your real opinions.
We will listen 🙂
“but to the SNP shedding so many votes that even in the many seats where the Labour vote went DOWN from 2015, sometimes the Nats still managed to drop below them.”
Scottish Labour Branch Mangers come and go.
But the major setback for the independence movement was the loss of 23 SNP MPs and a fall in support from 50% to 37%.
I hope the SNP will be much better prepared for the next “snap” election.
@ manandboy 4:43pm well said M8
I’d be terrified having to face James Kelly at FMQs every week – a towering intellect and so quick on his feet.
Poor Rock, no friends on Wings and the oldest troll of them all 🙂
@ jfngw
This gives a list of the (many) changes during the 2003-7 SP:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Two MSPs became independents after being expelled from their parties; two SSP became Solidarity, so it is clearly possible to take another party’s “whip” (they may not have needed one for just the two of them!). Maybe there are no rules.
(Wiki also says Mike Watson resigned after being convicted of arson – it was of course fire-raising. I’ll try to edit it.)
Chick McGregor,
“I think Craig Murray is taking the concerns of many in the indy movement and winding them way up to eleven and that that is a quite deliberate ploy on his part. i.e. he is acting as a goad.”
Craig Murray is a Lib Dem opportunist, a long term bosom pal of Carmichael, even during the independence referendum campaign.
Craig Murray was the first speaker I had in Brechin – excellent and wide ranging in his analysis – we need people who will ask serious questions.
Robert Peffers,
“@colin alexander says: 30 August, 2017 at 10:56 am:
“The SNP campaign was the worst ever. A total bloody mess. They DESERVED to be and should have been wiped off the WM political map.”
Dear God, Colin! Are you for real?”
Rev. Stuart Campbell,
“but to the SNP shedding so many votes that even in the many seats where the Labour vote went DOWN from 2015, sometimes the Nats still managed to drop below them.”
Robert Peffers, if you are for real and not as pretendy as your “sovereignty”, can you explain who was to blame for the SNP losing 23 MPs and its support falling from 50% to 37%?
New powers to overrule all London Westminster Inglish Tory decisions have been granted to the Scottish government a source close to this site has revealed and critics of the Scottish government are furious at the controversial move not to fully use these new hidden powers to protect Scotland from everything even more critics are saying
These new powers can in fact create complete new law over everything whenever the critics say so said the source but the SNP refuse to use them …controversially
The First Minister was unavailable for comment and the SNP declined to put up a spokesperson to explain these new radical and heretofore undisclosed controversial powers
No doubt doubts will rumble on until this is resolved
until then we’ll have to put up with Arseholes talking shite about stuff they have no Fukcing clue about so they controversially make it up as they go along as long as it comes out SNP Baad!
Petra @ 2.58
Took a look at that link Petra….
It’s mince ….a socialist wish list and a few cut and paste phrase’s from the US Constitution.
It turns Scotland in to a republic by saying so in one of the articles…nay consulting the people.
Oh we would get a vote on the personality to become head of state.
But no on whither we wanted to go forward with the current monarchy…now I personally don’t,but will respect if the majority do….
Land grab by Constitution is a new one for me right enough!!
Further into the site it also claims that the UK gave up it’s Sovereignty (sorry Alex LOL) and handed it to Brussels.
And that’s where I stopped reading,and reflected on the hour of my life that I won’t get back…. LOL….
I don’t know who these people are but I do hope that they are no portrayed as representative of the Yes campaign.
Or that’s really the actual Constitution that we are aiming for.
Dorothy Devine,
“Could we all STOP responding to the pillock PLEASE.”
I have my differences with Robert Peffers.
But I wouldn’t call him a “pillock”.
Further to my 7.42 post
I forgot to add….
Suspiciously The search and seizure warrant has to be signed by a “MAGISTRATE”
Make of that what ye will.
Trolls quoting trolls.
Deary me they really are desperate, think most are frightened to come on here now cos there either ignored or ridiculed.
Their trolling is pathetic, hey you Rock I’ll be trolling you from now on.
Love Alex xxx
C4 teatime news, we come to praise Kez, and SLab.
Not a mention from C4 liggers that Kez told Scots to vote tory last GE, well not all Scots, just that KEz said we should all vote tory, in constituencies where it made sense to vote tory, to get the tories in.
Another great pile of yoon lies, from UKOK hackdom, on their great mountain of UKOK hackdom lies.
Rock
Hes fer real
A real 77 brigade cyberwarrior
Fer real who ho spouts shite time and time again
Fer real who whinges and moans
Fer real hes nae one of us
@Crazycat
I’ve read through the parliamentary procedures, quickly, and yes there seems to be no way to remove a MSP once they have taken the oath unless they are thrown out for breaking rules or they resign. Looks like a big hole in democracy with regard to list MSP’s as they could all decide to Tories at the drop of a hat.
You could make a similar case for constituency MSP’s but there is a difference as technically you have voted for the individual, not the party.
There you go, what I assumed to be obvious regarding democracy proves to be wrong, you learn something every day.
Joemcg,
“Maybe the Indy movement IS losing direction under the SNP. It’s certainly frustrating times.”
It started losing direction when Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.
The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.
Instead of striking when the iron was hot, she tried to be ultra cautious.
The result: She was outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.
We won’t get anywhere by remaining in denial.
Alex Clark,
“Poor Rock, no friends on Wings and the oldest troll of them all ?”
At least I didn’t have to change my posting name unlike another poster.
Robert Peffers says (to Thepnr):
27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm
“Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”
Hows the base at 77 hq rock!
Is it just you on shift tonight?
Jings. Came on wings to take a break from getting the kids ready for bed.
Think some here need to be getting their teeth cleaned. Its getting late.
@yesindyref2 says: 30 August, 2017 at 3:18 pm:
” … Lest we forget, the main problem for Scotland is the Tories these days, the Indy Ref and 2015 saw the end to the Labour hegemony.”
It is quite amazing that with the evidence so clearly before them many Wingers still cannot see the truth that has looked them in the eye for so long.
When I first posted on Wings I was saying it out loud and clear and I’m still telling it how it is today.
The problem for Scotland is exactly the same as it was before the Treaty and both acts of the respective parliaments were even in draft format.
It isn’t Conservatives, Liberals of Labour just as it was never the Whigs alone that was Scotland’s problem. It was then, and is now, English Nationalism and that is the entire Westminster Establishment.
For the various parties are nothing more than a smokescreen and the apparent fighting among themselves as different political parties is strictly for the benefit of the electorate.
When push comes to shove, they don’t give a damn which English/British political party wins the election because they get paid the same rate of pay if they are in power or in opposition. Only the actual leaderships get ministerial pay, it is a case of, “Buggin’s Turn”, as it has to be permed any one from three of, “The Establishment”.
Yet while seeing them all as Blue/Red/Yellow Tories your average Scottish indy voter still thinks of them as individual parties actually opposed to each other.
They have always been, “The Establishment”, and include the Lords, the Education system, The Church of England, The Civil Service, Security Services, Armed Forces and they are headed by the Royals and Hereditary Peers.
However, and most evil of all, are the continuation of the Scottish, “Paircel o Rogues”, who sold out Scotland in the first place and many of them, being hereditary, are descended from the original bunch pf bastards.
The problem is not either the Tory, Labour or Liberal parties it is them all in combination as, “The Establishment”.
If you want that in short form it goes like this – We are not fighting a political party we are fighting a political system.
Seriously can’t understand why The Rock gets such a hard press on here.
I am sure there will be many who thinks he talks a lot of sense.
We won’t get anywhere by remaining in denial.
Rock it clearly was not just not on holding indyref2 in 2015, even after the SNP 50 seat gain. Even if SNP had won every Westminster seat.
Sure youre a troll Rock and a pretty sleazy one at that but the idea that SNP Scots gov would hold a second referendum, the year after losing the last one, is just too trolly.
I am sure there will be many who thinks he talks a lot of sense.
That’s just it though, Rock never talks sense. He’s either a crackpot, a troll, or both:D
O/T – for those who read about Angela Clennell being deported to Singapore in spite of spending 30+ years in UK and having her family here – she arrived back home today.
link to tinyurl.com
One_Scot says:
30 August, 2017 at 8:23 pm
Seriously can’t understand why The Rock gets such a hard press on here.
Because basically all Rock ever says is stuff like, SNP bad because they should have done this and they should have done that and that makes the SNP very very bad.
Well we will need to agree to disagree on that.
@ Liz g says at 7:42 pm …. ”Took a look at that link Petra…. It’s mince ….a socialist wish list and a few cut and paste phrase’s from the US Constitution……
I don’t know who these people are but I do hope that they are no portrayed as representative of the Yes campaign. Or that’s really the actual Constitution that we are aiming for.”
It’s a draft as far as I can make out Liz and of course they’re looking for Scots to contribute so not a finished piece of work. Far from it. Maybe we should wait and see how it progresses. I’ve heard that Elliot Bulmer is part of the team. No idea who else is involved.
I’m between the Rock and a hard press.
O.T good news, cant imagine there’s any English/BBC money in any of this production. Before they built the A90, as a kid, you used to have to come through Cupar Angus to Perth and glimpsing that huge black statue of the Bruce was always a bit a freaky.
Hope its the next Brave Heart. That movie still drives the britnat’s mental.
link to archive.is
HomeScotland NowEntertainment
Filming starts in Linlithgow on big-budget Netflix movie Outlaw King
The film about Robert the Bruce is directed by Oscar-nominated Scot David Mackenzie and stars Hollywood hunk Chris Pine as the medieval hero.
Oh well I’ve popped in and see that the thread’s being ruined once again. Gone from discussing Kezia Dugdale to Rock. Shame that you’ve to trawl through one post after another to find a decent post on here.
One_Scot says:
30 August, 2017 at 8:31 pm
Well we will need to agree to disagree on that.
We don’t have to disagree though. Hard core Rock is always, SNP bad, for not holding ref2 last year, this year, last month etc.
But he never says why on what basis, other the totally unexpected 50 MP SNP gain, in 2015.
Maybe you can One_Scot?
Hello there Graeme Doig
@ jfngw
That does seem to be the case. I’m not even convinced constituency representatives should be allowed to change party – I know that technically we vote for individuals, and certainly incumbents build up personal support (as may list MSPs, I suppose, though they then depend on their party to keep them in a winnable position), but lots of voters do choose the party first and accept whatever candidate they are offered.
The Tories, after all, were all “Ruth Davidson’s candidate in [name of seat]”, making party the explicit priority.
‘We don’t have to disagree though’
I’m afraid we do, and I don’t have to tell you anything.
Petra @ 8.32
Will keep an eye on it then Petra and see if it starts to make any decent progress…but right now it’s a bit of a joke.
In the meantime I will need to go look up who Elliot Bulmer is.
But thanks for the link,I have an interest in constitutional stuff.
As writing a new one will be amazing,and we need to get it right.
heedtracker says:
30 August, 2017 at 8:37 pm
O.T good news
Good news indeed.
Premiering a month before Indyref2.
Strategic planning by Nicola.
One_Scot,
“Seriously can’t understand why The Rock gets such a hard press on here.
I am sure there will be many who thinks he talks a lot of sense.”
I am sure the “silent majority” agrees with my comments.
I don’t care about the clueless pompous armchair pundits attacking me because they can’t counter the points I make.
One_Scot says:
30 August, 2017 at 8:48 pm
‘We don’t have to disagree though’
I’m afraid we do, and I don’t have to tell you anything.
Ofcourse not.
Its just that you asked the question,
“Seriously can’t understand why The Rock gets such a hard press on here.”
But you did exclude an “I,” so that must be it.
Rock’s against Scottish independence, he doesnt want any change and he doesnt want Scotland to not be governed by England.
Its a big step for sure, and he is merely protecting a system of super rich elitism, a system that’s set up entirely to feed more and more wealth to this elite. The rich will always get richer in teamGB, That’s all that concerns dudes like Rock, the maintenance of a dominant elite.
Its never going to change, in England, but in Scotland…
@ Robert Peffers: “It is quite amazing that with the evidence so clearly before them many Wingers still cannot see the truth that has looked them in the eye for so long.”
Independence Referendum 2014: YES 45%, NO 55%
EU Referendum 2016 (Scotland): Remain 62%, Leave 38%
Current support for Indy August 2017 – around 47%
UK Leaves EU: 29th March 2019
Scotland leaves EU: 29th March 2019 under current arrangements
Mandate for Indy Ref 2 based on “material changes” – dragged out of the EU
Indy Ref 2 planned for: ?
————
Holyrood 2016 MSPs: SNP 63, Tory 31, Labour 24, Green 6, LibDems 5
Holyrood 2021? SNP ? Tories ?, Labour ? Green ? Pro-Indy majority ?
Mandate for Indy Ref 2 in 2021 ?
—————
That’s the evidence, and the truth.
And the problem.
heedtracker,
“Because basically all Rock ever says is stuff like, SNP bad because they should have done this and they should have done that and that makes the SNP very very bad.”
Centuries of reading The Guardian has reduced you to such a sad and sorry state.
I have posted this many times, but since I feel really sorry for you, will post it again just for you:
Rock:
“For the avoidance of any doubt, my mantra has long been and remains:
“Always vote, and always vote SNP only until after independence.””
As for your repeated Kezia Dugdale like question of who I will vote for after independence, I will vote for the party which offers the best deal for a just and fair society.
As I don’t know which parties will be standing under which names, how can I can name it now?
I don’t care about the clueless pompous armchair pundits attacking me because they can’t counter the points I make.
But you don’t make any points Rock.
If only you did.
Ranting away SNP bad, like this evening, at FM Sturgeon not holding ref2 after the 2015 SNP Westminster landslide, is all about what?
Scotland voted No 2014 and you’ve decided that its been a catastrophe of an error to NOT hold ref2 2015. Sure that sounds great, but only if your Rock, your new bestie, and the silent majority.
Or Rock, what do you hope to achieve for Scottish democracy and Scottish nation statehood, endlessly sneering SNP bad, for not holding ref2, 2015, 2016 btl, WoS?
See what I mean:D
I have posted this many times, but since I feel really sorry for you, will post it again just for you:
Thanks Rock. Your pity salves my pain:D
We know who’s waving goodbye – do we know who might be waving hello yet?
Petra, try this;
There seems to be a hope on the part of many that Labour in Scotland will somehow consider Independence as a future policy and embrace it as a way of resurrecting their fortunes.
This hope is based on a viewpoint where the viewer has already occupied the sunny uplands of Independence (I can do Churchill lol).
What it fails to take into account is the absolute resolve and steadfast view of those Labour politicians – namely an unshakable unionism.
Now in my opinion Labour unionism is based on many things dependent on the individual.
If you’re Kez Dugdale it’s naked careerism flavoured with a nasty dose of sociopathism.
Others will be unionists of the orange variety.
Others, no doubt, will sincerely believe in the concept of the UK but will struggle to articulate coherent reasons that drop into meaningful policy.
Other Labour politicians are full on cringeworthy proudscotbuts, brainwashed products of 300 years of propaganda.
Others are just thick as mince.
Others are simply very conservative thinkers locked into a world view that is anchored in the 1930s. These Labour people probably still think there is still British Empire and that workers are being exploited to fuel the demands of Empire.
It’s an impossibility to hope that Labour will embrace Independence. It’s not going to happen, primarily because all of the above are being very skillfully manipulated by an extremely able London establishment who pull the strings and manipulate Scottish Labour for their own ends.
People like The Kellys of this world think they are oh so clever but they are just puppets jumping on strings pulled by their London masters.
Labour are lost for ever.
@heedtracker
The SNP manifesto was for “a referendum” if being taken out of the EU.
It’s not about win or lose, it’s about giving people what they voted for: a referendum.
If they vote for an indyref, they are then entitled to vote how they like in that indyref: Aye, No; 1,2,3,4 or draw a wee smiley face or write on it: “heedtracker was here”.
It’s called Scottish democracy. Scottish sovereignty.
You yourself said we can have one, two, three, however many times referendums if the electorate vote for that.
The SNP have no mandate to bargain it away. Or cancel it, if indy doesn’t look like 100% winner – this time.
Or are they scared that Ruth Davidson and Labour might slag them: “you lost again ha ha”.
Wallace and Bruce lost as many times, but they never gave up Scottish sovereignty and for them losing was more than a petted lip and being teased from nonentities in the Tory and Labour parties at the Mickey Mouse pretend parliament.
BTW I can report from my vantage point just round the corner from clunking fist that almost the whole of Scotland will have crossed the bridge by the end of the day.
Still nose to tail at 9pm.
heedtracker,
“Ranting away SNP bad, like this evening, at FM Sturgeon not holding ref2 after the 2015 SNP Westminster landslide, is all about what?”
God, if he exists, help you comprehend things instead of making them up.
Rev. Stuart Campbell (20th December 2016 – The Scottish Brexit FAQ):
“1. THERE WILL BE NO SEPARATE SCOTTISH DEAL
You know there won’t, we know there won’t, everyone and their dog knows there won’t.”
Rock (20th December 2016 – The Scottish Brexit FAQ):
“That is why I have been saying that not only is it a complete waste of time, it is dishonest of Nicola to pretend that there could be a seperate Scottish deal.
Nicola should have talked straight immediately after the Brexit result and made it crystal clear that it is either an independent Scotland in the EU or the Scottish colony of England outside the EU.
The Scottish people love straight talk.”
To everyone on here feeling sorry for dugdale,just remember why the rev has taken her to court!
Meanwhile out in morningside, is that the sound of bricks hitting the pan i hear ?.
colin alexander says:
30 August, 2017 at 9:08 pm
@heedtracker
The SNP manifesto was for “a referendum” if being taken out of the EU.
Thought you might pop up Colin A.
No, the SNP manifesto is not for “a referendum” if being taken out of the EU.
We know this because you cut n pasted the actual text, from the manifesto you dope.
Its a belief in the right to hold referendums, if they are required, by issues like Brexit.
You can read Colin A.
Its interesting how you and twits like Rock come btl WoS never ever comment on the actual WoS blog above.
Well its not interesting, but it is the first sign that trolls are creeping about:D
Maybe its easier to say sorry (so many times) if you are not the labour leader of a branch office of the regions and nations of England
Rock says:
30 August, 2017 at 9:13 pm
heedtracker,
“Ranting away SNP bad, like this evening, at FM Sturgeon not holding ref2 after the 2015 SNP Westminster landslide, is all about what?”
God, if he exists, help you comprehend things instead of making them up.
See Colin A?
Not a peep from roughee toughee Rock, about what is a truly is a massive blow to yoon culture in Scotland today, Kez jumping before she got the push.
Its a common thing you know Colin A, in the Paras:D
heedtracker,
“Rock’s against Scottish independence, he doesnt want any change and he doesnt want Scotland to not be governed by England.”
I have been posting on this website longer than you.
Without misrepresenting it, quote one single post of mine which has led you to believe what you have posted.
Hell mend you.
Even Kezia Dugdale has slightly more credibility than you have.
heedtracker,
“Not a peep from roughee toughee Rock, about what is a truly is a massive blow to yoon culture in Scotland today, Kez jumping before she got the push.”
Since you missed it, I will post it again:
Rock (30th August – Broken news):
“She had the perfect credentials to be Scottish Labour Branch Manager – a complete liar with zero credibility.
To the extent that she even ended up in bed with the enemy – an SNP MSP.
Wonder what went wrong.”
FYI, the resignation was first mentioned in the ‘Broken new’ article, hence my comment there.
Hello there Graeme Doig
heedtracker,
“Not a peep from roughee toughee Rock, about what is a truly is a massive blow to yoon culture in Scotland today, Kez jumping before she got the push.”
Dugdale’s resignation “a massive blow to yoon culture”?????????????
What planet are you living on?
Kezia was always out of her depth. She’s a nice person, I have no doubt, but not cut out to be the leader of a political party.
I wonder who they’ll wheel on now to pick up the poisoned chalice.
The only thing that makes me NOT want Independence is folk who say things like “I’ll vote SNP up until Independence then I’ll vote”
And that’s my worry what will these people want to vote and who is it they’re threatening to vote for because as a SNP member folk are always moaning at my party to tell them stuff or demanding to know stuff but they never want to tell me what their plans are, is that some kind of secret?
See I like the SNP because there are many different opinions within it and they work through everything in a democratic fashion to get the best results they can, very much like a management company and they don’t do ideology for the sake of it and I like that it suits me fine because I’m kind of left leanie centrist with zero tolerance for extremes either way
So I wish to ask the question of the folk who see fit to use the SNP to further their own ends exactly what those ends are given that the other parties are SLAB Tory and Lib Dem, Oh and Greens, so if it’s none of those then who is it
and if it’s going to turn out to be one of those Palestinian Peoples Popular Punters parties or rearrange those initials to get somebody else with mental ideologies then see yer Arse see yer ideologies you’ll know where to stick them if you think that I would vote for Independence only to be taken over by bampot flat cap lefties who are closer in their beliefs to Kim Jong Il and the happy state gang
Coz that would be a NO from me
Not that I believe these people would win anything, but they just might cause enough trouble to bugger things up for actual democracy, because they do like to disrupt and strike for, guess what, Ideological reasons which usually means money for some Union guy and his mates to get rich off the backs of his own co workers
They never change
Meet me round the back of the yards and we’ll discuss the next disruption plan or better yet tell us what you want now before the rest of us make the effort to get our freedom only to give it away again to the PPPP OR THE PKLP or whatever the hell these people want to call themselves this week
Petra @ 8.32
Have looked up who Elliot Bulmer is…and he is who I thought he was.
I have actually read one of his articles and it wasn’t that impressive…..(mindful of not raising any legal issues for the site)
The article was saying that the draft interim Constitution written by the SNP shortly before the first referendum did not address the the appointment and removal of Judges.
Well I canny rember if there was anything about the removal of Judges.
But I certainly do remember reading about the appointment of them.
Something like that makes me wonder how accurate the rest of his stuff is.
But!!
He the goes on to say that the document gave almost unlimited power to Holyrood because of the way it was written.
Which was true….very true but a bit lost in the article for such an important point.
It’s the thrust of the article over all though,that I am not comfortable with…..a wee bit too SNP bad for me!!
They might well be bad at drawing up Constitution’s but it’s hard to tell how bad they are at anything when all we ever get is they are bad at everything.
As you say Petra we should wait and see how the project develops and it’s good to know if it’s genuine that’s there’s an academic on board.
To everyone on this site feeling sorry for dugdale, just remember her comments in the Scottish parliament re the rev!
Meanwhile over in morningside, is that the sound of bricks hitting the pan i hear ?.
Take heed Rock, stop being absorbed by the blame culture.
The world moves so quick, that to show one’s hand, gives one’s enemies the ability to stall indefinitely, influencing incrementally.. Seemingly forever.
Just a wee O/T that may be of interest to some Wingers as many of the people who vote to elect the Westminster Establishment have never heard of this person who sits near the Speaker and who the Establishment seem strangely reluctant to tell us anything about.
I speak of, “The City Remembrancer”, who represents the financial, “City of London”, and, apparently also represents, “The Lord Mayor of London”.
The Lord Mayor of London, by the way, heads a scarcely ever mentioned devolved legislation that seems also to be on the, “Don’t tell the voters”, list.
Here’s a cite to some information about this rather secretive individual hidden in plain sight in The Commons, never mentioned, yet always present:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
@heedtracker
I had the same idea, someone else mentioned: SNP and Greens have a vote of no confidence in the SNP Govt. An election has to be called ( if I assume right).
The SNP stand on a Holyrood manifesto of Holyrood is sovereign so it can vote on anything and decide on anything.
With the promise that some of the first votes at politically sovereign Holyrood will be:
1. If WM refuses to accept Holyrood is the sovereign parliament for Scotland as part of the UK, Scotland’s Parliament declares the Union is over and Scotland shall return Scotland to being independent.
2. (IF Scotland remains part of the UK), Should Scotland seek to remain part of the EU even if the rUK exits the EU?
3. IF, following a vote that Scotland should remain in the EU, the UK Govt continues to refuse to accept Scotland can remain in the EU as part of the UK, should Scotland become independent?
( The SNP manifesto would pledge that SNP MSPs would vote Aye to 1, 2 and 3.
@ Graeme Doig I crossed over the Bridge at 8.15 southbound tailbacks for a couple of miles northbound .
A sight to behold.
Graeme Doig,
That’s great to hear. I’ll have to wait over a week to be going that way. (Note to driver, we ARE going via the bridge!)
I’m sure the beeb will assure us that it is not the bridge that is the attraction but the opportunity to ‘drive across water’ on satnav!
Rock
I see ye dinnae dispute that ye are a member oh 77 brigade!
I saw someone on Facebook saying that the bridge is fantastic, been over six times today…no wonder there are queues 🙂
colin alexander says:
30 August, 2017 at 10:07 pm
@heedtracker
Are you really going to plague every WoS story btl with irrelevant jibberjabber from now til Scotland’s independence day?
Yes.
Toconstant bickering and in-fighting all, I’m getting fed-uo with the constant in-fighting and bickering. This I might add is harp-back to previous military campaigns culminating in the Massacre at Culloden. A campaign that had been riven by disagreement from the day they set out from Scotland and when they got to the gates of Derby and the whole English establishment in the south were without a credible defence force and the ‘Usurper’ English King was across the Channel in Holland the road to London was wide open and plumb for taking. So what did our gallant Commanders do – they started that age old Scottish Sport of doubting themselves and infighting eventually retreating to the inglorious conclusion that was Culloden.
Now we are doing exactly the same with some punting a Independent Socialist Republic like Venezuela perhaps or some quasi Soviet State like present day Russia. That some of these extremes have units of merit they should be incorporated into a Modern Socially Just Scotland which can be achieved without the extremes hard left Socialism. A strong Scottish Government should lay down some stringent things about living and working and owning land in Scotland.
Just on land, Scottish land can only be owned by a RESIDENT of Scotland and worked for the benefit of all who reside on it – no more absent Landlords. As for the likes of the Railways and Energy Companies as it is highly unlikely that a newly INDEPENDENT will not have the wonga to buy them out so ‘Softly, softly catchy mousey’. A very Strict Regulation Policy should be designed and implemented which should ensure they opt out early or at the end of their contracts. However it must be made abundantly clear to the Unions that the Government wants them on board and not obstructing the Government at every turn. For instance there will be no going back to the ‘bad old days of over-manning’ but a guard on a train is an essential safety measure – even in days of automation things can, and do, gp wrong.
So let’s get away from the bickering and visions of an ultra utopian. ‘Marxist’ style state. Others have said it but it does no harm to say again, “After INDEPENDENCE’ SCOTTISH VOTERS WILL HAVE THEIR SAY ON THE DIRECTION THAT THEY WANT THEIR NEW SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT TO TAKE”.
Let’s stop the ‘nit-picking’ and get down to working together – REMEMBER THE FIRST OBJECTIVE IS INDEPENDENCE – WITHOUT THIS NOTHING.
Auld Rock
Further to my previous post about the next Holyrood election:
link to hansard.parliament.uk
Does this mean the date of the next Holyrood election can be decided by Holyrood?
It was supposed to be 2020, but that would have clashed with WM whose scheduled next election from 2015 would have been 2020, until the early one was held this year.
So, am I right that WM devolved setting the date for the next Holyrood election to Holyrood?
If so, the SNP could put sovereignty and a promise of an indy vote at sovereign Holyrood on the manifesto after calling an early Holyrood election.
How does 56-23=35?
Wow! Text book tory attack propaganda from the Graun, again. Severin’s puff piece farewell for Kez was a classic tory slimefest but this is as mental as Britnat anything.
link to archive.is
“Respect for the difficult job Ms Dugdale was doing at Holyrood has also been growing. Her palpable decency and calm advocacy on Scottish issues have helped to augment, not undermine, the appeal of Mr Corbyn’s politics north of the border. ”
Christ she hated old Corbyn so hard last year, it was quite something to watch, let alone how incredibly reckless her “we hate JC” stuff was, considering how well he won.
Harder britnat tories like the Graun gits try to paper over the UKOK cracks in Scotland, the better:D
What I’m curious about is why pro Corbyn MSP’s like Rowley and Findlay have excluded themselves and we have two non entity idiots in the shape of Sarwar and Leonard putting themselves up for the leadership vote.
Both Sarwar and Leonard are unelected list MSP’s, who the voters rejected, yet Labour think in their own bizarre fashion that these are leadership material
Well, it certainly seems that the new bridge has caught everyone’s imagination.
But when it comes to Independence, it seems that that is a bridge too far.
I’ll just get my hot milk and my bed socks.
link to caltonjock.com
@Paula Rose says: 30 August, 2017 at 9:04 pm:
“We know who’s waving goodbye – do we know who might be waving hello yet?”
Well, no, we have not, Paula Rose. However the Media is telling us several Labourites, including Alex Rowley, who have claimed they are not interested in the vacancy – but then, we have heard such claims before that proved to be false.
harry mcaye @ 10.28
Took me ages to work that out. But Natalie McGarry’s seat was won by the SNP’s David Linden and Michelle Thomson did not stand and her seat was won by LibDem Christine Jardine.
Meanwhile that batty old bag, that’s Theresa May, in Japan announces that she is not standing down before the next election but will stand again.
If that was weird enough, the idiot is now sating that she wants to send British troops to Japan, to ‘take part in joint exercises’
Presume someone has taken the lunatic aside and explained that the UK is a bit short of military due o cut backs and wasting money on the aircraft less carriers and Trident!
We cant even afford to send troops to the other side of the world
I don’t post very often but read WOS every day.
What on earth is going on ? Are any off you remotely interested ( I know this is a small group who post a lot ) in our country becoming independent ?
We attack each other and it seems very strange to me when there are soooo many other targets who denigrate us.
Stop being a bunch of self centred areholes and put your efforts into our cause of self determination .
Many criticise appalling press and media coverage of our nation yet I see on this site people who do just as much damage, what the hell are you thinking about ? We need to work together to get our nation back but with the bs that I have to read on here I feel we will never get there.
Stuart Campbell has done so much for our efforts to become independent and fools on this site belittle his efforts and our ultimate goal, shame on you all !!!
And just an aside Kezia is “immensely proud ” what the hell for? Achieved nothing all she did was denigrate our great country.
If you feel the comments above by the usual suspects make you feel like walking away then they have won.QED by the Britnats.
However if the SNP led by Nicola Sturgeon have to wend their way through mantraps laid by Btitnats then I personally trust them to choose that psychological moment where we have the best chance of winning INDEPENDENCE.
So the endeavour of the Britnats is to diminish the SNP and undermine Nicola Sturgeon.
Personally I have waited sixty years for a winning chance at Indy so a few more months I can live with . Chelmsford Brigade “Stand easy”
Theresa May insists she is ‘here for the long term’. BBC online news 26 mins ago.
“Asked whether she wanted to lead her party into another general election, whenever that takes place, the prime minister told the BBC’s Ben Wright in Kyoto that that was her intention.
“Yes, I’m here for the long term. What me and my government are about is not just delivering on Brexit but delivering a brighter future for the UK.
“It is my intention to deliver not just a good Brexit deal for the UK but to ensure ‘global Britain’ can take its place in the world, trading around the world and we deal with those injustices domestically that we need to do to ensure that strong, more global but also fairer Britain for the future.”
Every time Theresa May speaks, she sounds like she’s trying to take the piss.
@ Andrew no matter how many times many on WoS appeal NOT TO FEED THE TROLLS it continues unabated , your voice is like ours , voices in the wilderness. Until Stuart Campbell grasps the mettle & blocks the post disrupters .
What the what. Probably not broadcastable on the old beeb tory gimp networks.
link to bloomberg.com
ronnie anderson
Just take the view that the WoS mods do do. WoS readers can make their own minds up and trolls get blocked, on the WoS blogger’s say so.
Cant be any fairer.
yesindyref2 says:
30 August, 2017 at 6:05 pm
@schrodingers cat / Brian Powell
By your logic, Craig Murray is “simply trolling or fake commentators”.
Right, I’ll take that one on board …
—————–
eh? i dont think craig is a troll, i quite like the guy, seen him talk a few times, i dont agree with him all the time but hey ho, c’est la vie.
im not sure why you included me in your post dads ??
As Kez rises up to much undeserved UKOK tory media canonisation, it is the least tory media can do, life goes on. No deal is better than a bad deal, is the tory mantra, BBC r4 tories keep saying.
Guy Verhofstadt is at European Parliament.
10 hrs · Brussels, Belgium ·
This morning I did an interview with CNBC about the Brexit negotiations. I expressed my fear that some people in the UK are still trying to establish a hard Brexit or would even want to walk out of the negotiations altogether. Our continued relationship is too important for our citizens and our companies to be jeopardized by political games. A divorce is never easy, but a strong future partnership is in the best interest of all.
@Robert Peffers (10.06) –
re ‘The Remembrancer’.
Strange coincidence that you mention that character’s role as I was thinking about it yesterday.
Saw an RT interview programme, forget the name, one of the guests was yon David Buick business dude/reporter, and t’other was sumbdy Werner, his name looked familiar…showing me ignorance here but I don’t really follow such financial stuff.
Anyway, it was interesting, all about the 2008 crash, the banking structures etc, and then The Remembrancer was mentioned by Werner as being this extraordinary character who represents the City of London in parliament and virtually no-one’s aware of ‘him’ and then the host mentioned something about ‘even the Queen must make an appointment’ – Buick didn’t raise any objections, and it was all over so fast, it was like a verbal footnote. Makes ye wonder but, eh?
😉
I can only imagine, that somewhere within a Scottish Labour branch office, somewhere, their is a scene akin to the weekly start to the apprentice, when the members of each team, having been set their task, meet together and have to choose a team leader. Knowing the risk of failure, invariably people try to nominate others, whilst excusing themselves for the flimsiest of reasons.
Branch leadership of Labour in Scotland is the proverbial poisoned chalice. No serious politician of talent would touch the job with a bargepole.
Labour in Scotland will never recover until such time as they accept the reality of the desire for Scottish independence. Of course to do that, they will need to end their subservience to British Labour in London – and that is not going to happen.
I am sure FMQ’s will be interesting, no matter which Scottish stooge is chosen by London Labour.
@ heedtracker There is only one moderator on WoS & he has plenty other things to be getting on with . Scroll past the Trolls comments DONT BECOME ONE. You’s that reply are becoming as much a pain in the arse as the trolls.
I CANT SAY FAIRER THAN THAT .
For all the shit-stirrers, mischief makers presently infesting WoS (you know who you are – oh, and so do we), this is just for you:
Despite your valiant efforts here to shit-stir and create rancour and division among indy supporters, understand one thing here.
YES will win Indyref2.
And it will WIN simply because, when all is said and done, we will put all and any silly differences we may presently have and pull together as one to ensure victory in IndyRef2.
That, BTW, you can take as a cast iron guarantee.
You’re gonnae lose Indy2. There’s nothing surer. Get over it.
Now the lot of you – please, do keep it up. Because here’s a simple truth (one you probably don’t quite understand about thrawn Scots) – the harder you try to cause division among us, the more, in fact, you highlight that which unites us.
Independence. That is our goal. We will NOT lose site of it. EVER. Got the message?
Keep it up.
From the wikipedia entry for the remembrancer, it says;
“The Remembrancer’s department had a budget of £6 million in 2011, and employed six lawyers to scrutinise prospective legislation and give evidence to select committees.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Even more interesting regarding the way the city and corporation of London have full access to influence UK Government decisions, is this piece from the Guarniad in 2014 (archived)
link to archive.is
@Dr Jim
If there’s a referendum in March 2019 as is likely, it’s a YES and the date for Independence is March 2021. There would be Holyrood elections in May 2021.
The Conservatives, Labour and LibDems would ahve been fighting the ref on the basis of the Union, and have manifestoes full of devolved stuff – like “no Indy Ref “, and “SNP Bad”, and nothing else.
On the other hand the SNP, Greens, PPPP, ZZZ and assorted WILL have policies for Indy Scotland.
I personally will vote in 2021 for the best party to lead Scotland through its first 4 or 5 years of Independence, whover that is. Nobody owns my vote but me.
Now, who do you think is the party most ready, most prepared, with a record of successful devolved Government, and the safest hands to guide Scotland through those early years?
ronnie anderson at 1110pm,
Very well said. ESPECIALLY “You’s that reply are becoming as much a pain in the arse as the trolls. ”
Can’t fathom why people still play along, since that (and that alone) is what allows them to flourish.
Edward,
The visit doesn’t seem to be going as planned. First they tell her before she gets there that they can’t discuss trade until they know the brexit situation (obviously).
Now, from Politico, ‘ On Thursday morning, May will hold a national security briefing with Japanese and British navy officers on board a Japanese aircraft carrier…’
Presumably, one with aircraft. Now that is just plain trolling!
@Ian Brotherhood 0 August, 2017 at 11:06 pm
re ‘The Remembrancer’.
“Saw an RT interview programme, forget the name, one of the guests was yon David Buick business dude/reporter, and t’other was sumbdy Werner, his name looked familiar…showing me ignorance here but I don’t really follow such financial stuff.”
I expect that would have been a repeat of the excellent show
‘Renegade Inc.’
link to rt.com
with guest Professor Richard Werner:
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to southampton.ac.uk
He is one of the few economists who I would say is really worth listening to. Like Yanis Varoufakis and Steve Keen 😉
Now, who do you think is the party most ready, most prepared, with a record of successful devolved Government, and the safest hands to guide Scotland through those early years?
if we won indyref2 then we would need to make certain that the snp won the following election to ensure a unionist coalition could not reverse the decision, indyref3 etc.
What does a bridge do ?
Why are we drawn ?
Engineering marvel, Yes.
But really ?
It’s the embodiment of hope. A testament to all that’s good and gallus about us.
It’s a bridge between us and a brighter future.
Hat tip to everyone who had anything positive to do with the project, and thanks in advance from my great-grandkids.
These are the top title headings on Bloomberg’s europe page link to bloomberg.com
May Says She’ll Stand for Re-Election. Tories Laugh in Response
Barnier Says He Can’t Be Flexible Until He Knows What UK Wants
Japan ‘Too Polite’ to Tell May What It Thinks About Brexit
Brexit Barometer Plunges Over Negotiations
Brexit Delays May Endanger UK’s Fresh Food Supply
Anyways May had a nice cuppa tea with Abe.
The sun never sets on the british humiliation
Went both ways over the QC today. First trip south joining the M90 at Halbeath at midday.Took about an hour to get to Barton.
Coming home about 3pm was much easier and journey was about 45min for the reverse trip.
No worse than on the old Forth Road Bridge on a bad day and a bloody site quicker than having to go via Kincardine which could take well over 2hours when the FB was closed.
So why all the BBC, STV and MSM negativity? Of course it was going to be busy today. I went over the FB on the day it opened over 50 years ago and that was a nightmare, and you had to pay a toll both ways. And it was thick fucking fog. Couldn’t see a bloody thing!
Today was calm, good humoured, excellent visibility on a fantastic bridge. Took a few pics on the way over and hersel’ took a bid on the way back. Very smooth ride.
So Kezia walked the plank? So what? We have two things to celebrate today so stop the feckin’ bitching, Indy is coming. We can do it. As our newest bridge proves, Scotland can do anything!
I CANT SAY FAIRER THAN THAT .
Yes you can:D
WoS mods know exactly who you’re moaning about. They’re fine, in that there is always an opposing view on everything. Just scroll past their nonsense and the easiest way to spot them is, they never comment on the WoS blog subject, its always SNP bad, isnt that right Rock.
Deep dishonesty, its a yoon thing,
Heedtracker
You seem to have a problem with anyone who disagrees with the SNP or their view as to the best route for independence. The Rock is entitled to his opinion whether you agree or disagree with it and I for one am getting sick of the near hysteria of those who express these views being labelled Trolls.
STOP IT and try and get out more.
@cat
Yes, there is that too 🙂
@Heed
Please, stick to the Grun, BBC, gimps, and anything else.
Thanks Petra – for link
link to scottishconstitution.scot
… now that is worthy of discussion.
Is there anything that one can point to that was beneficial to Scotland that Kezia achieved – apart from making Labour even less electable?
PR
Resigning ?
Started watching Scotland Tonight and then did a runner. Jack McConnell being interviewed along with another three Dugdale cheer leaders. ”Scotland’s in a mess. Kezia did her best. Amazing leader. Inspirational. Autonomous party etc, etc.”
I must be living on another planet.
…………………………………………….
@ Giving Goose says at 9:06 pm … Petra, try this….. There seems to be a hope on the part of many that Labour in Scotland will somehow consider Independence as a future policy and embrace it as a way of resurrecting their fortunes. …… It’s an impossibility to hope that Labour will embrace Independence. It’s not going to happen, primarily because all of the above are being very skillfully manipulated by an extremely able London establishment who pull the strings and manipulate Scottish Labour for their own ends. People like The Kellys of this world think they are oh so clever but they are just puppets jumping on strings pulled by their London masters. Labour are lost for ever.”
Good post Giving Goose and you’re no doubt right. I was just having a doo-lally moment, lol. A ‘dream-on’ moment. It looks as though someone from Corbyn’s camp will be elected and if it’s Leonard he’s far brighter than Dugdale and will have the Unions right behind him.
Now we have to get the message across to the Scots that Corbyn, and whoever his Scottish lackey may be, will be dragging us out of the EU. 62% of the Scottish electorate who actually voted want to Remain, but more than anything 92% of Scottish Brexiteers want to remain in the Single Market. Corbyn is trying to muddy the water by doing his ‘transitional’ U-turn and I can see SLab trying to pull the wool over our eyes too. The other of course is the support Corbyn gives the Tories in relation to austerity cuts.
……………………………………………………..
@ Liz g says at 9:50 pm …. ”Petra – Have looked up who Elliot Bulmer is…and he is who I thought he was. I have actually read one of his articles and it wasn’t that impressive…..(mindful of not raising any legal issues for the site).
The article was saying that the draft interim Constitution written by the SNP shortly before the first referendum did not address the the appointment and removal of Judges. Well I canny remember if there was anything about the removal of Judges. But I certainly do remember reading about the appointment of them. Something like that makes me wonder how accurate the rest of his stuff is. But!! He the goes on to say that the document gave almost unlimited power to Holyrood because of the way it was written. Which was true… very true but a bit lost in the article for such an important point. It’s the thrust of the article over all though, that I am not comfortable with…..a wee bit too SNP bad for me!! They might well be bad at drawing up Constitution’s but it’s hard to tell how bad they are at anything when all we ever get is they are bad at everything. As you say Petra we should wait and see how the project develops and it’s good to know if it’s genuine that’s there’s an academic on board.”
I was going to post prior draft Constitutions Liz but reckoned you’ve scrutinised them all already. I think there’s a number of people / groups drafting a Scottish Constitution and at the end of the day a comprehensive Constitution will emerge. I’ve got great faith in the many extremely smart people we have living in Scotland and surely between them all they’ll come up with something we’ll be proud of. It’s no doubt going to be extremely complex attempting to make the break from our neighbours with many constitutional experts / lawyers involved and of course the public which is what the Scottish Constitution are attempting to do. To my mind Bulmer is out there spouting HIS views whilst others will be quietly beavering away in the background.
……………………………………..
@ Andrew says at 10:37 pm … ”Many criticise appalling press and media coverage of our nation yet I see on this site people who do just as much damage, what the hell are you thinking about? We need to work together to get our nation back but with the bs that I have to read on here I feel we will never get there. Stuart Campbell has done so much for our efforts to become independent and fools on this site belittle his efforts and our ultimate goal, shame on you all !!!”
Well Andrew ”what are they thinking about?” They are and have been thinking about how they can go about scunnering people off of this site and scuppering us winning our Independence altogether. Some of my friends have been well and truly scunnered already and no longer bother to visit. I’m sure Stu reads the posts and at the end of the day no matter how many people complain, like me and yourself, he is the only person that can do anything about it.
McDuff
That’s nonsense too. Rock rage is all about what SNP did wrong and Colin A just wants to tell us about stuff that’s got nothing to do with, well tonight its the Kez catastrophe for yoon culture but its usually all WoS blogs now.
yesindyref2
Why all the censure tonight? Rock gives as good as he gets.
Its an amazing week in the progress towards you know what, although maybe not exactly when. Yet there’s all kinds of grinching and griping. If you see commenters that you don’t like, scroll past. I do.
Its really not like the 45:D
link to facebook.com Culross Car park.
@heedtracker
If I wanted to read the Guardian (or Graun or whatever stupid nickname you call it) I’d go to it’s website.
Are you gonnae pollute every btl thread with links to Unionist propaganda in the Guardian?
I think we get it by now, the Guardian is a unionist propaganda sheet too.
@ heedtracker says at 10:51 pm …. ”What the what. Probably not broadcastable on the old beeb tory gimp networks.”
link to bloomberg.com
Good one HT. Now that’s more like it. We need the Scots to know that the EU will welcome us with open arms and why not when we are one of their biggest energy providers. Not English exports as some seem to think.
‘..The German backing for Scotland to remain in the EU is at once a rebuke to Prime Minister Theresa May and a rare sign of international encouragement for Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon’s attempts to avoid Brexit….’
Petra, had a look at the constitution draft.
IMV it suffers from much the same as all the others I have read over the past few years.
No time or space to be detailed but IMO, BTW first stated before Devolution and submitted to the suggestion box on offer at that time, we should take the opportunity to make an independent Scotland a paragon, a beacon, which might, just might, have a chance of saving democracy. Because, as things are, I do not see democracy surviving the 21st century. Some might say it is dead already.
I won’t quibble over details in the draft you posted, even though some, like enshrining state sanctioned euthanasia are matters which really should be subject to a separate debate and plebiscite and then only after a campaign involving much specific evidence weighing and conscience searching by the electorate.
The key points which I think needing inclusion pertain to the survival of democracy. In order for that to happen, IMV, certain fundamental changes to the democratic systems presently in use need to take place.
Due to time constraints I will just state them as succinctly as I can, in bullet form:
1 No financial donations to any party except by voluntary individuals and capped at some reasonable level.
2 No physical lobbying of elected representatives by commercial organizations. Complaints, objections and suggestions can be made in written format,detailed as they wish.
Campaign pressure groups and individuals may meet with elected representatives who relent to a request or who themselves seek a meeting with them.
In particular, any inducement offered to an elected representative whether monetary or in kind would be criminal offense with a mandatory custodial sentence either for the solicitor or both if the elected representative took up the offer.
3 No second jobs for elected representatives during their period of public service.
4 After a draft bill has been prepared (by individual elected representatives and/or committees) it would be submitted to the General Scrutinizing Committee for comment.
5 The General Scrutinizing Committee would be made up of a large number of experts in every field. They would be peer elected and serve for a short period, say 3 years, they would be unpaid, acting in only a spirit of public service, although any justifiable expenditure involved would of course be remunerated. All key areas would be covered e.g.s technology, justice, education, welfare, sociology, health and safety, unions, business, military, farming, religion, financial services etc. The draft legislation would go to all for perusal, not just those selected by politicians. Any who feel there is a consequence or oversight in the legislation affecting their sector can post a comment to that effect (with a suitable response time and wordage limit). These comments must remain attached in an appendix to the legislation in perpetuity.
6. Any amended Bill must be resubmitted to the GSC for possible further comment.
7. At the Bill passing stage, all voting elected representatives must sign a declaration that they have read the Bill and attached expert comments in entirety before the vote.
8. All legislation would be subject to a review procedure after 5 years in the field. If the intended effect has not materialized then the legislation would be scrapped, otherwise it would be ratified at that point and made permanent.
9. Governance should be viewed as an integral part of ensuring a just society. After all, it is not a tremendous stretch to view a period of governance in a similar way to that which we view a court trial. The election period can be viewed as the summing up for a jury immediately before the vote of that evidence which has been on offer during the ‘proceedings’.
OK, it’s a ‘trial’ which has lasted 5 years with evidence for and against having been accrued over that period of governance and the ‘jury’ consists of the entire electorate, but exactly the same thing is at stake (or should be) – the preservation of a just society.
So, in that regard, statements by elected representatives should be subject to a similarly rigorous legal scrutiny.
In particular the law of perjury and the penalties for its infringement, should be extended to any pronouncements made by elected representatives to the ‘jury’ (electorate)during the period on which they are to be ‘judged’ i.e. any statements made by an elected representative on a any kind of public forum.
Of course, within the chamber elected representatives must be allowed to make accusations or raise questions based on nothing more than supposition or rumour.
Likewise the accused may refute such accusations or answer such questions.
Denial of that practice would not serve democracy.
However, that is more akin to the ‘behind the scenes’ interrogations and suggestions which take place prior or during a trial.
10 Media to elected representative relations needs to be much better regulated. Press statements, press conferences are OK but 1 to 1 cosy meetings whether in an expensive restaurant or not, ‘exclusives’ or leaks or cronyism should be curtailed also but it is a complex web to unravel.
11 Direct democracy, via petition, should be possible. However, the pragmatism of those American states which allow it, namely including the issue at the next available elected representatives or presidential election, makes a lot of sense.
@Heed
To commit the old UseNet sin of summarising a thread, there are several types of postings on this thread:
1). On topic ones
2). Off-topic ones but interesting
3). Postings by apparent “trolls”
4). Postings in reply to apparent “trolls”
5). People calling the apparent trolls “trolls”
6). People complaining about the “trolls”
7). People complaining about people replying to the “trolls”
8). People complaining about people complaining about the trolls and people replying to them
9). Funky chicken
10).
@ Heedtracker says at 12:07 am …. ”Why all the censure tonight? Rock gives as good as he gets…’
I don’t think it’s really about what he gives HT because it’s usually the same old cut and paste jobs … night after night. It’s more about what he gets and that’s a response – many of them – all contributing to clogging up the site. If you get the time check back and take a look at what’s going on.
colin alexander says:
I do try to do the btl thing, actually about each WoS blog, not what ever it is your endlessly repeating, that has nothing to do with any of them.
You should listen to me you know, a few years ago i suggested that what we really need on tv, is lots of programmes about the English and cakes.
@Chick
Sounds OK to me except “5 The General Scrutinizing Committee” should get living wage and expenses, no more.
Also something about unauthorised non-attendance in Holyrood. I don’t ahve a problem with 2nd or even 3rd jobs, but not if it means them missing one single hour. Constituency, ministerial (plus shadow) or MSP business – fine, but no party activities, no refereeing, no uni lectures!
Aye heedtracker, well done in posting an interesting link.
Much better than nagging at me or Rock or whoever disnae have exactly the same point of view as you.
We can agree to disagree on some things, but still back independence.
YES / AYE to Independence.
Paula Rose,
It’s rude to point.
@Andrew says: 30 August, 2017 at 10:37 pm:
“I don’t post very often but read WOS every day. What on earth is going on ? Are any off you remotely interested ( I know this is a small group who post a lot ) in our country becoming independent ?”
While you are basically correct, Andrew, you have made some small errors. This is very far from being a small group. The readership is greater than any individual dead tree press outlet in Scotland.
There are, though, a far smaller set of regular commenters and, as you correctly say, an even smaller number of who seem intent upon running down the SNP as both a political party and as the Scottish government.
I assume, or rather I know some, in that group are from the former Labour hard left who seem to imagine that they can make gains at the expense of the SNP. There is absolutely nothing to back up that belief. There are other factions and I’m sure some among them are indeed unionists under false flags.
However, do not be fooled by the current batch of SNP detractors. It only indicates that Wings has the unionists very worried.
What we need here is people, like yourself, who read, but seldom comment, to ramp up their efforts to comment.
Not only do we want to hear your views but we need the anti-brigade to know they are having the opposite effect than they hope for. I’m not really attempting to speak for others here and I’m sure they can speak for themselves.
However, that’s my personal opinion – a lot more posts from people like you who support the Scottish Government and it will be less hard work for the regular SG/SNP supporters.
The best discouragement for the anti-SG/SNP lot is to see their constant, drip, drip, drip of anti-SG/SNP bile just isn’t working will beat anything the regular commenters can achieve.
@ Chick McGregor says at 12:18 am …. ”Petra, had a look at the constitution draft. IMV it suffers from much the same as all the others I have read over the past few years. No time or space to be detailed but IMO, BTW first stated before Devolution and submitted to the suggestion box on offer at that time, we should take the opportunity to make an independent Scotland a paragon, a beacon, which might, just might, have a chance of saving democracy. Because, as things are, I do not see democracy surviving the 21st century. Some might say it is dead already.”
Superb Chick and thanks for taking the time to do this. Now you should forward this to them because they want the public to get involved. I agree with you on every point you’ve outlined on here in particular lobbying which is probably one of the key issues that has been and continues to undermine democracy, create inequality and totally corrupt Westminster. George Kerevan wrote about that recently and said that the bars and restaurants are milling with lobbyists. I’ve also seen the points that you make about diverse membership of the GSC, outlined elsewhere (thank goodness), which is critical, imo. Only difference being the time limit. So much to cover Chick and we have to get it right. I’ve been taking a look at the written Constitutions of other countries which is also interesting but time consuming … if only I had more time to commit to this. Anyway I better get off to bed as I’m up at 5am tomorrow. Once again thanks a million Chick for covering such an important issue.
Robert Peffers;
“The best discouragement for the anti-SG/SNP lot is to see their constant, drip, drip, drip of anti-SG/SNP bile just isn’t working will beat anything the regular commenters can achieve.”
Otherwise known as, the art of Fighting without Fighting.
I agree, Sensei Peffers.
@Ian Brotherhood says: 30 August, 2017 at 11:06 pm
“re ‘The Remembrancer’.
Strange coincidence that you mention that character’s role as I was thinking about it yesterday.”
It is a really strange one this, “City Remembrancer”.
First of all this has been a parliamentary feature since, (I’m working on memory here), long before there was a United Kingdom Parliament. It is also a strange title, “City Remembrancer”.
Seems to imply that the City of London financial sector has this guy sitting there to remind the parliamentarians that they must always remember the City of London financial sector is more important than anything else that parliament does.
“Anyway, it was interesting, all about the 2008 crash, the banking structures etc, and then The Remembrancer was mentioned by Werner as being this extraordinary character who represents the City of London in parliament and virtually no-one’s aware of ‘him’ and then the host mentioned something about ‘even the Queen must make an appointment’ – Buick didn’t raise any objections, and it was all over so fast, it was like a verbal footnote. Makes ye wonder but, eh?”
That’s what I was getting at, Ian. I tried earlier to refresh my memories but it was like trying to walk through a swamp of very thick mud.
Then I finally found the link that I quoted but I had other things to do and it really didn’t say too much about what was behind the whole strange thing.
@Robert Peffers
“anti-SG/SNP lot”
There is a difference between the SNP and the SG. The SG operates within constraints, implements policy where it can. Looks after the services and spends investment on such as the FRC, M8, A9 etc. It is constrained in the way it can report on the official gov.scot website, and for major policy, has to achieve a majority as a minority Government.
The SNP on the other hand forms SNP policy for the future, and has only the constraints any political party has.
Some of us posters went to a lot of trouble in Indy Ref 1 to point out the difference between the SNP and the YES movement.
I think the SNP has to make more of the difference between it – and the Scottish Government, especially during Indy Ref 2
Don’t ask me how 🙂
Well, for instance, the SG can produce a paper on currency and different options, and detailed descriptions on how they might – might – be implemented.
The SNP can choose whatever option it wants, and run with it.
Hi Petra
My god I am posting again !
I know Stuart has to troll ( excuse the pun ) through all the items posted on this site but it still beholds the contributors to be positive about Scotland.
Made the terrible mistake of watching TVs news tonight, ” Queensferry crossing chaos ” BBC headline, it seems our new bridge is a white elephant if you live in the world of BBC Scotland.
“Too many young people with a Good education ” , “unpresidented infeastructure improvements in Scotland a bad thing” , how can such a shity tiny country afford it, “massive road improvements “, and doing my job driving around Scotland all the terrible new schools I see paid for out of our budget make me think Scotland really should be together with our bestest neighbours , in a word or two fuck off !
Obviously not you Petra !
Oh dear….not going well at WM towers…EU negotiations are showing the uk gov up as incompetent morons…what are WM to do about this….looks bad with the plebs…QUICK…a plan is required…!!!
And here is that plan….
“We…accuse THEM of being incompetent…SORTED…”!!
Enjoy this utter farce of a uk position…(archived because I FUCKING HATE Sky News…) ENJOY.
link to archive.is
Hi Robert,
Thank you for your feedback.
There is a lot of talk on WOS and a vast majority I truly agree with, what I can’t stand is the “if buts” idiots we hear from.
Scotland will and can stand on its own two feet, our true fight and energy should be directed at the media, especially EBC Scotland and all MSN outlets, our cause and destination will never be realised until we find a way to counter this terrible misinformation
Ian Brotherhood/Robert Peffers if you google George Monbiot , he wrote a piece years ago that tells you all about the Remembrancer and the elite entitled from somewhere like the Middle Ages who call the shots in that square mile.
I’d link it but don’t know how to
It does reinforce the point however that even in 2017, it’s not that Westminster won’t change- it can’t.
How the Square Mile must laugh at how successful the ” take back control” Paul McKenna style mantra was, as they sent their delegation over separately for Brexit but of course then again they told us we’re all Better Together aren’t we ?
May will be next.Running away from the usual mess. Then Davidson, trying to do Scotland down. The Tories are starving people. The unionists are the pits. Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Dread to think the state of Scotland without the SNP Scottish Gov. Westminster is corruption full of unionists crooks. They couldn’t make a bigger mess. £Trns in debt Now Brexit. The rocky horror show.
Multimillionaire farmers/fishermen getting £Millions in subsidies and not declaring it. Pleading poverty and taking cash from poorer members of their own industry. Malicious greedy people. They are despicable. The Tories cutting education, jobs and public services. Building hotels and conference centres with public money. Instead of schools and houses, as was intended. The unionists chancers. Rearranging council meeting to suit two jobs Tories. To keep themselves in power. £1.2Billion in debt. Now cutting £125Million. Cutting services and jobs. Spending £200Million on a grotesque monstrosity no one wanted and ruining the City Centre.
The unionists are a bunch of malicious liars. Thank goodness for the SNP Gov. They will hold and support another IndyRef when it can be won. Simple. Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland and getting things done. Labour and the rest of them are totally useless. Pathetic. Have the LibDems been charged with electoral fraud yet?
BBC Scotland is the Labour Party Press Office. Notice how all the website trolls disappear when Labour are in trouble. The Union costs Scotland £20Billion a year. May is off on another illegal mitigate campaign. Starving people to death. The US has been starving South Korea for over fifty years. Get rid of SKy. Fake news. Liars.
Just keep voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Vote for what is right. It is nothing to do with Nationalism. It is to do with right and wrong. Living in a civilised country. Like most other Europeans. Common decency.
There’s a BBC r4 gimp very hard selling SLabour in Govan right the now. Its quite a listen, a party political broadcast on behalf of the SLabour and BBC party.
Two nations, two very different types of tory BBC attack propaganda.
Bet old JC wishes he could a taste of BBC’s vote SLab Scots propaganda action, just a wee taste:D
Ronnie Anderson
Here Here!!!
LINKS;
‘I’m not a quitter’: Theresa May says she could fight another election as PM;
link to archive.is
Sarwar and Leonard likely candidates in Labour race;
link to thenational.scot
Alyn Smith: They’d love to see Yes movement implode but it’s Unionist castles that are built on sand;
link to thenational.scot
Links;
Ruth Davidson and Nick Eardley … No questions please;
link to indyref2.scot
Endings and beginnings;
link to indyref2.scot
EXCLUSIVE: The shady, ultra-posh Tory elite running the new Momentum-imitation group Activate;
link to evolvepolitics.com
LINKS;
One woman’s experience on a London bus shows the damage the Tories have done to disabled people;
link to thecanary.co
Photographer: Matthew Lloyd/Bloomberg
German Parties Snub U.K. to Back Scotland’s Push to Defy Brexit;
link to bloomberg.com
P.F.I. – PROFITING FROM INFIRMARIES;
link to chpi.org.uk
LINKS;
The Currency of Localism;
link to opendemocracy.net
£2.2 million Scottish Government investment pays off as expanded Scrabster harbour’s economic output rises to £48 million a year;
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Viva la Scot Lab revolution;
link to autonomyscotland.org
@ Petra 11.57pm
I’m sure Stu reads the posts and at the end of the day no matter how many people complain, like me and yourself, he is the only person that can do anything about it.
Stu can’t possibly spend time reading all the posts. What he says to do is basically three things:
1 never respond to trolls
2 never discuss trolls
3 send him an email – see Contact above – and he will deal with it if necessary.
Is Kez getting out before the storm hits?
Is Sarwar organising another free meal?
Is JB is hiding in plain sight?
Is KD handing the poison chalice to another newby who does not know any better.
Has anyone told Harriet Harman that Scottish labour is autonomous?
It would appear not since she suggested JC should appoint a leader of the branch office.
Oh and the BBC edited out the bit in KD’s interview when she said Scottish labour was on its knees when she took over and she left it on its uppers. Great to have helpful friends at BBC – even at the end KD messed up.
So now both these yoony ladies are in hiding.
Ruthie tank commander may have weathered the storm thanks to her media pals but she has been damaged Nicola has ammunition to use ant time she pleases at FMQs
FUCK IT, James Kelly is another to rule himself out of the labour leadership contest.
He announced it on the radio this morning, but everyone will be glad to know he also announced everything in the world is the SNP’s fault.
The fact the presenter was actually asking him questions about labour did not stop his repeated SNP-BAD reply’s.
Kevin Bridges has nothing on James Kelly.
I think you’re being a bit unfair to Kez. Her main problem is that she was way too young to be dumped with what was – and remains – a poisoned chalice. She came up under Foulkes, then Murphy and I can’t think of 2 worse, more bitter, nasty and backward looking idiots to be “mentoring” a young woman in politics. She became deputy then leader ridiculously too fast, largely because no one else wanted it. Maybe that’s naive, or daft, or she was graspingly over-ambitious and couldn’t see past fast promotion.
Either way, she slipped – seemingly quite happily – into the same bitter, nasty, denigrating tone of both Foulkes and Murphy, but sometimes there was a flash that she wasn’t so happy with it all. She, and Scottish Labour generally, are heading into a death spiral because the UK media and politicians have been lying, spinning and talking utter pish about Scotland, and ironically, the only people who still believe it are the echo chamber of UK media and politicians. So they’ll put in whoever they think is best, believing all their myths and it’ll be a bigger disaster even than Kez.
I wouldn’t want to be an even half decent politicians with any genuine understanding of Scottish politics leading Labour in Scotland right now. And we’re not going to see anyone like that take on the job right now, because the UK politicians and media wouldn’t allow that. They think they know best. So perhaps Kez is jumping at the right time. She’s still young and maybe she’s just wised up a bit.
Good Links Smallaxe
So Kezia, having lead the party that sides with the Tories to deny the aspirations of 45% of the population,just f’ucks off.
It should be remembered that the Tories oppose the SNP and Labour, though they were gleefully using Labour over the last few years.
The Yes movement outnumber the individual parties against Ind, and Labour voters have much more in common with SNP/Yes voters than the Tories.
Dugdale is a shameful cringing creature who has never tried to represent Scotland. You will find not a speech speaking up for Scotland, its achievements or its people, only about the Labour Party.
Everything in her resignation speech was telling, the Labour Party was all.
What labour needs is someone who really will put Scotland first and work with the snp and indy supporters to do the best for Scotland not one who wants to do the best for WM Labour and tories.
Kez certainly was used by labour but she had the gaul to think she was equal to it and would never admit her mistakes, she did learn from two of the worst Foulkes and Murphy but made her own choice.
Neither Foulkes not Murphy cared a jot for Scotland or its people but only for their own advancement and career – to see any true labour man sitting in unelected HOL in ermine is sickening and time after time labour have promised to do something about it but instead join in and play the game either in the HOL or the big banks which they deregulated.
They sold out and took the money and the power and the ermine instead of reform.
@Molly 1:45 AM
This will be the one, I think:
link to theguardian.com
He also wrote a bit about it here:
link to monbiot.com
@cath
She’s an adult.
She denigrated Scotland throughout the indyref.
She supported the tory austerity agenda.
She supports trident.
She does not believe the people of Scotland should govern their own country.
She is two faced, manipulative and a liar.
Her principle reason for resigning is a lie and morally disgusting.
None of the above can reasonably be excused by her being mentored by the likes of Foulkes and Murphy.
If she had a semblance of decency or insight then she would be ashamed of her time in office not grinning inanely and crowing with pride.
Today was the first time I have went through the articles in
http://www.autonomyscotland.org and what a good site it is.
Well researched articles taking apart the case for the Union.
I will chuck them a few quid, and support them. They are not competition to Wings but a really good asset for us to have in our way forward. If you have not looked through it, I politely suggest you do.
The rev is excellent, I am a avid supporter and will continue to be, but the more ammunition we have the better.
Juan P at 9.00 am.
Well said.
Cathy @ 8.39
Cathy Kezzia Dugdale is a grown woman.
A Grown Women by every test and measure.
Just like Mhairi Black.
I don’t see how the position that “she is Young” ( while showing the decency that she never did) is any excuse
“Stu can’t possibly spend time reading all the posts. What he says to do is basically three things:
1 never respond to trolls
2 never discuss trolls
3 send him an email – see Contact above – and he will deal with it if necessary.”
Exactly. He has examined the complaints against me and presumably Rock, Breeks and others and clearly we are not trolls or we’d have been banned ages ago.
So, maybe if some SNP apologists take the blinkers off they would see the SNP are not perfect either. Like every human being, they make mistakes too.
—————————————–
Govern: “conduct the policy, actions, and affairs of (a state, organization, or people) with authority”.
Where does the Scottish Govt’s authority to govern come from?
Westminster: The Scotland Act 1998 /2016.
It’s not a Scottish Government at all. It’s UK Westminster Govt administered by Holyrood and the so-called Scot Govt.
—————————————
The SNP have become UK Devolutionists. Only when they start fighting for independence and Scottish sovereignty will I accept they are again a
pro-independence party.
If people want to support the SNP because they are the best administrators of devolution, then that’s your democratic right. I perfectly happy to say they have been MUCH better than Lord McConnell’s Labour lot as administrators of devolution.
Just don’t expect the SNP to stand up for your democratic right to decide to keep Scotland in the EU, cos they didn’t.
The Scot Govt flag should be a white saltire on a white field.
The white flag of surrender.
They’re no the ones that will lose their jobs (well, not until 2021 anyway), because of Scotland leaving the EU and they won’t face persecution from the DWP, unlike thousands of others in Scotland who are suffering and begging the SNP to stand up to the UK Govt. but meanwhile the SNP postpone indefinitely even any talk of independence.
Don’t despair folks, Sarwar will become the new Labour leader.
Re. Peter Bell’s article on indyref2 where he asks what’s next for Kezia, he suggests she may end up being a regular political commentator on the propaganda channel. Well not if she has a Damascene conversion to the Indy cause she won’t. She’ll be dropped like a hot potato.
But in that (likely/unlikely?) event would she be an asset or not? Just wondering…
In today’s Herald, “…MSP Jackie Baillie was seen at one of Mr Sarwar’s cash & carry warehouses yesterday, suggesting a campaign operation is already underway.”, I can confirm this is incorrect. Ms Baillie is regularly seen at the warehouse stocking up crates of coca-cola.
It’s very difficult for the Indy movement to win the information war. That’s not to say it’s impossible.
Everyday, more information is put forth by the mainstream media, TV, Radio, politicians, political commentators, bloggers. The establishment, the Unionist side have the advantage in terms of reach…reach isn’t everything, but it’s not far off. Hence brand new bridge = SNP Bad. New GERS figures = SNP Bad. Oil price high, SNP bad. Oil price low = SNP bad. Baby Box = SNP Bad. And you can replace SNP Bad with Indpendence Bad, it works the same…unfortunately.
How many people in Scotland do you think could be turned around to vote yes, if they were given enough information that showed that Scotland would be better of as an independent nation. It’s hard to come up with a number, but one has to at least say…enough to get us over the line.
So that’s the focus really isn’t it. Getting enough information to the poeple who need it, so they can make a truly informed decision. The focus of our opponents is to put forth enough information (often of dubious, questionable substance) to convince enough people that Independence is bad. Simples ay.
They can get more information out to more people than we can. As we know, most of our best minds; the bloggers, writers, commentators on our side don’t get a sniff from the mainstream media – unlike Torrance, who can spout pish and get it in at least two broadsheets and a TV spot, without much effort. We can’t do that to the same extent.
As humans we can only react to what comes our way, what we see, hear, read, touch, smell etc. If we don’t know a thing exists ie the McCrone Report, we can’t have an opinion on it. We can’t factor it in. Everyday, ordinary people are bombarded with information, the vast majority being SNP/Indy bad. We have to understand the effect this has on normal folks, (we’re all normal by the way) who might not be Yes yet. It ain’t easy out there. Life’s tough, a struggle from morning to night for so many of us. Add to that the negative effect of our media.
If someone reads and or sees ten stories that are SNP/Indy bad and one that’s Indy/SNP good it’s tough to weight the one good Indy/SNP story over the ten bad ones. We have a hell of a job to do to combat that.
As such, in my opinion it is fair game to contructively criticize any entities on the Yes side, including the SNP, who make strategic blunders in terms of the overall game, which is to win independence. To win independence we must win the information war.
When we lose we lose as one, remember that. When we fight, we fight as one. We’re not fighting as one at the moment. We’re not fighting so well either. And every day, we lose the information war, cos we don’t have the reach and we don’t have a strategy that accepts the conditions and adjusts accordingly and acts optimally. It’s tough to find a strategy that combats or opponents but it’s not impossible by any means, and it has to be centred around understanding the flow and effect of information. I guess we’re talking about how our opponents manufacture consent.
Our opponents are cruising in second gear…we’ve seen what it’s like when they crank it up to 5th gear…it gets ugly and messy real quick. If we go as we are going, we don’t win next time. And that’s on all of us. Some reg posters here are (IMO and with all due respect) dropping the ball, a wee bit.
Sometimes I think I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, I really do but then GB’s labour in Scotland openly considers following a South Asian millionaire with a name that sounds like Anus Sore and I feel obliged to f that for a game of soldiers & open some more popcorn.
As to the delightful Miss Dugdale, may I be among the first to suggest that money earmarked to embarrass the former s. labour leader in defamation proceedings may now be channeled towards a well earned holiday researching real Scottish influence around the globe instead.
OT the Scots remembrancer in the sixties (a more honest time helas) was allegedly required to spend about one million pounds a day (ie considerably more than the budget described by Robert Louis @ 11.16) but was also known to have been fooled once by an Indian boy selling cold tea in a whisky bottle.
So far we have had Alex Rowley and Neil Findlay ruling themselves out of the race to leader of Labour in
Scotland.
And Sarwar is apparently disliked in Labour so it seems
Leonard is the favourite at the moment, though
I really would have loved it to have been Rowley as leader .
Why? because he wouldn’t be able to stand the pressure, he’s never served a full term as council leader here in Fife.
He stepped down twice before the local elections, the first time to be secretary of the Labour party? and the second time when he became an MSP.
As for the suggestion from some posters, that Dugdale may join the SNP or support Scottish independence are pure fantasy.
If she did the former, as an SNP member I wouldn’t trust her as far as I could throw her and I suspect there are many others like me in the SNP who would feel the same
way.
“Would Kezia be an asset to Indy?”
We should, of course, welcome any convert to independence, however unlikely. It would be fun watching the MSM tie themselves up in knots about it though…
Brexit – the jobby which just won’t flush away!
David Davis and Michel Barnier are set to brief the media on the latest round of talks in Brussels at 11:45. Sounds like nothing much has been achieved. Perhaps even gone backwards!
The UK media appears to be pushing the idea that the EU negotiators have too narrow a brief, which sounds like complete bovine excrement to me. I think it makes perfect sense to get the impending consequences of actually leaving all sorted out before you move on to future relationships.
However, I suspect it’s all part of the UK plan to blame the EU for it all going wrong.
Cath @ 8.39…have you just arrived?….Kezia is ‘young’ and might ‘wise up’??….FFS Cath she’s a 36 year old manipulative lying and despicable individual. She lied in the Scots Parliament repeatedly, with the worst recent example of denying Nicola’s mention of her damascene conversion to Independence during a phone call.
Add in her resolute denial of the Scottish people’s democratic vote on the EU and for more powers. Her getting into bed with the tories figuratively and literally with an SNP opponent shows her as the moral vacuum she really is. Not immature but unscrupulous. She is still entitled to continue to draw a large salary from the talking shop she shamed…and she will…then watch the next sinecure that she scuttles into when her time is up in the Hollyrood gravytrain.
Is Kezia on the turn?
Is she about to join the SNP?
I am not into exposing peoples personal lives but is she not going out with an SNP MSP?
Or have I got that completey wrong?
Lochside
I agree with everything you say, but if Dugdale signed up for the SNP or even the YES movement, then it would surely persuade others to do likewise.
And it would make a great talking point.
Galamcennalath 9.50
It is interesting to wonder whether the UK side is incompetent
or pretending to be in order to justify a hard brexit.
I suspect its a mixture of incompetence and arrogance. They can’t get their head round the idea that they are not being taken seriously by the EU side.
But we’re the UK. We’ve got nuclear weapons and everything. Of course we can negotiate an exit with no costs and full benefits.
When they come home in despair we can call them Dexeus Midnight Runners.
Both of the leading contenders for the Branch Manager slot are Brit Nats and very hostile to Scotland’s self government.
Richard Leonard was behind the GMB Union’s call for its members to vote NO to a better future in 2014 and millionaires don’t like change.
Strangely no paper has given any detail of Leonard’s background.
Unlike other MSPs he has not entered any personal information about his background on the Scottish Parliament’s web site, not even his age. Why?
Where was he educated? What was his career? Are there skeletons to be found?
@Andrew says: 31 August, 2017 at 1:30 am:
” … our cause and destination will never be realised until we find a way to counter this terrible misinformation.”
And that, Andrew, is the whole point. One point I’ve made for many years is that we really are our own worst enemies. I look on it like this – The Westminster Establishment has its own, to them, very good reasons for the misuse of their own native English language.
They not only want to believe that, for example, the term, “England”, is totally interchangeable with the terms, Great Britain, Britain, The United Kingdom and that these terms all mean, “The whole Country”.
The problem is that not only have they become used to getting away with this but that most Scots, Welsh and Irish people not only do not correct them when they do so but have become so brain washed they often use the terms wrongly themselves.
Just think about it for a moment. Think of the resultant confusion if, on a televised political interview for example, someone were to have the person being interviewed, stopper in their tracks at every instance of a misused term?
One of the worst offenders was David Cameron who would often have several misused terms within a single sentence.
I just now went to YouTube. I fed into the search box the search term, “David Cameron speech”, and selected the first one on the list,
link to youtube.com
I have not even watched it right through but there is the typical English nationalist mind-set laid bare.
Not only does he keep referring to the united Kingdom as, “The country”, but he assumes that if, “the country of Scotland”, leaves, “The Country”, that, “The Country”, called, “The United Kingdom”, will just carry on being, “The Country”, called, “The United Kingdom”, without, “The Country”, of Scotland and will still be a country called the United Kingdom. He doesn’t even think to mention, “the Country of England”, because, in his mind that is the same thing as, “the country”, he thinks is the United Kingdom.
So, what if someone had pulled him up and corrected him at every error he made? His speech would have been meaningless and the stark truth brought to the notice of millions of people.
The truth is that the United Kingdom is a two partner union of kingdoms and the fact it contains four countries is irrelevant. If one kingdom decides the union is over then what remains is not any king of country nor any kind of united Kingdom. It returns to being two independent kingdoms and only one of them is also a single country and it is NOT England.
So there you go – we hold the solution in our own hands but there are far too many supporters of independence who misuse the same terms themselves, never challenge their misuse. yet still blame the Westminster Establishment propaganda machine for brainwashing them.
In most cases they are brain washing themselves.
mike cassidy says:
Indeed. With their all pervasive entitlement and exceptionalism, it’s hard to see what they are actually about….
– they may actually be blinkered enough believe they are so special they will get ‘an impossible deal’
– they may actually want things to continue much as they are with a long ‘business as usual’ transition and are preparing to sell that at home.
– they may be preparing the ground to blame the EU and have a crash and burn Brexit (which they naively believe will be just fine)
SINKY…10.41
If skeletons are to be found in Mr Leonards cupboard, please wait till he is elected then find them (-:
Been trying to stay on topic difficult but here goes.
Kezia a walking contradiction, even this morning on the BBC website she gives a version of events that led to her being outed against her will (her words) The version from the Fabian magazine is entirely at odds with her comments,
If this had been a one off that’s fine but this has been the ongoing theme during her leadership of blis , if it wasn’t for a completely onside media here in Scotland she and her bunch of spineless cretins known as British Labour in Scotland would have been crucified ages ago.
So our media switch their allegiance to the most right wing rabid Tory party in living memory, because of one thing, Defence of the Union,
The veil has been lifted, we don’t have opposing political parties, we have a Unionist block pretending to be all things to all men but actively acting as one.
We have the SNP v the Union it’s that simple, if contributors here and there are many recently who criticise the only political party who offer a choice of a different future, Please Feel Free to GTF . Your continued presence on this and many other Indy supporting sites is just disruptive and adds nothing but Fog to any discussion or topic.
Now I know the secrecy behind Richard Leonard’s background.
He went to Pocklington School in York where fees are currently £26,500 a year.
So we have two members of highly privileged elite looking to head up the one time workers party.
Vlad(not that one) that’s the one. It’s a bit of an eye opener .Thank you
@Molly says: 31 August, 2017 at 1:45 am:
“Ian Brotherhood/Robert Peffers if you google George Monbiot , he wrote a piece years ago that tells you all about the Remembrancer and the elite entitled from somewhere like the Middle Ages who call the shots in that square mile.”
Far as I remember, “The Remembrancer”, in parliament dates to before, at least Queen Elizabeth the 1st of England. I am, though going on memory only with that claim.
“I’d link it but don’t know how to”
Then, Molly, it is time you did know how to – and it isn’t hard.
You go to the item concerned – be it a web page, a picture or a video. You highlight the address and, “copy”, it.
This cuts the address to, “The Clipboard”, on your machine.
Then you return to the comment you are posting and place your cursor where you want the link to be in the comment you are posting. Now you select, “paste”, and it pastes it where you want it. You now know how to, “Cut & Paste”, links.
However, here are a couple of other hints. If you highlight an link address and press the keyboard keys Ctrl+C together it, “Cuts”, the link to the clipboard.
If you then place your cursor in your comment where you want the link to be and press the keys Ctrl+V together it, “Pastes”, the, “cut”, link into your comment.
Here’s another bit of info – for YouTube links only you must then remove, (and only for Wings Comments), the http:// bit of the pasted link from the link you just pasted into your comment.
Wings will then replace the http:// bit in the posted comment.
Hope that helps as it is a common thing that is so often taken for granted by we old hands on the internet.
Just imagine how a yes voter feels if they have lost their job then been sanctioned by the tories, losing their benefits for 6 months, no income, nada. Yet an Indy win would have made sanctions and the tories disappear forever. They must detest no voters and quite rightly. There must be hundreds of people like that in Scotland. The frustration with the SNP putting another vote on the back burner must be immense.
Talking of breaching rocking bottoms, I feel terribly sorry for the poor lad who had to respond present to some posh teacher calling out the name Sawar, Anas.
Thankfully his predecessors and contemporaries have turned his chosen vehicle for power into a laughing stock so any thoughts of revenge against giggling classmates ought now reasonably to require tools sharpened outside of the political arena and, in consequence, imply minimal collateral damage to the public at large..
As to the delightfully salacious Miss Dugdale, may I be among the first to suggest that moneys hitherto earmarked to embarrass the lady in defamation proceedings may now be better invested in a well earned holiday. (eg researching Scottish influence from Panama to HK stopping for longer than strictly necessary in Hawaii along the way)?
OT the Scots remembrancer in the sixties (a more honest time helas) was allegedly required to spend about one million pounds a day (ie considerably more than the budget described by Robert Louis @ 11.16) but was also known to have been fooled once by an Indian boy selling cold tea in a whisky bottle.
Dugdale was promoted above her experience and ability. But who else would have taken the job at that time? Her 2016 election interview with gary tank commander was probably her high spot… “I’m not a fan of Willy” is one of the best double-entendres of all-time.
Re possible replacements, Sinky @ 10.58… Richard Leonard’s schooling was his parents’ choice, not his own. Only if he is sending his own kids to a similar private school is he due a pelting for hypocrisy.
My kids go to the local state school, despite my parents sending me to a fee-paying school. My own opinion of the private route – a curate’s egg.
Veering further off-topic:
My preferred educational solution – the Finnish model. No private schools at all, and some of the most highly trained teachers in the world. Imagine kids from Pilton schooled in Fettes, kids from Musselburgh at Loreto… What would it do to the level of ambition of these kids to know that every day they were going to school in a castle?
Corbyn`s visit to his Scottish branch office was to fire Kez and find a replacement,
he is not as daft as Kez looks,
Kez cost him a chance to be PM by advocating people to vote Tory to keep SNP out,
whoever succeeds Kez will already have been chosen by Corbyn and will have been unequivocally told that he and London Labour are the boss of SLAB,
Cobyn should have thrown Kez out of Labour for promoting another party, along with other SLAB members,
not only did Kez and Scottish Labour f@ck up Cobyn`s chance to lead a left of centre coalition Government she also condemned million`s of the most disadvantaged UK citizens to an extra 5 years of Tory brutality and inhumanity,
and anyone who feels sorry for her need a reality check.
Hmmm Sarwar. He’s not dim. Unscrupulous and ambitious. He had the wit to latch on to Corbyn, though no Corbynista.
My guess? He will become leader due to his vaulting ambition and to a dearth of talent.
The Scottish Labour public will not like him.
But he will promote Corbyn and they will be fooled into thinking they are voting Corbyn not Sarwar.
Then he will be rewarded with a safe Labour seat at Westminster somewhere and get on the Labour front bench out of gratitude from Corbyn.
The Scottish branch office will continue to have nothing of substance to offer Scotland.
But Scotland will not care, because Scotland is either stupid or unionist.
Aarghh! I can’t see any good coming of this. It’s all a plot and the SNP have stalled. I agree with Craig Murray that the only breakthrough possible is going to come from outside party politics like a revived civic Yes movement, a true Yes people’s parliament.
The new term of the Scottish Parliament begins on 4 September 2017, so I just hope Nicola has been listening to the comments from independists and not just from Ruth the mooth and Ruth’s Orange Order, Scottish Fisherman’s Federation Pals in Peterheid.
Robert Graham
“The veil has been lifted, we don’t have opposing political parties, we have a Unionist block pretending to be all things to all men (and women) but actively acting as one.”
Absolutely spot on!
Here’s an interview with Richard Leonard from last year on being selected as a Scottish parliamentary candidate.
link to archive.is
We need to re-establish a politics where we stop dividing people on the basis of nationality and start uniting them on the basis of class.
He didn’t win.
@ Molly/Vlad
Archived version of the Guardian link:
link to archive.is
@ mike cassidy and Galamcennalath
here’s my take on the UK’s approach to brexit – together with 2 songs for the occasion – by (the) Queen . Who else?
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
“The frustration with the SNP putting another vote on the back burner must be immense”.
Absolutely.
Where is the inspiration, the hope? People are suffering NOW in Scotland cos of the Tory Govt. They want / need change.
They see a Scot Govt that wants to procrastinate and that won’t even talk about independence or exercising sovereignty.
Play it safe, keep the power dry. All that guff.
Play it safe for who? The SNP?
If it weren’t for those people who are now suffering, there wouldn’t have been an SNP Govt, a 45% Yes vote.
The SNP MUST come out fighting.
They must PROVE they have a plan of action that they WILL follow.
A plan to secure Scotland’s sovereignty and ultimately her liberation from being a colony of England.
Unionist letters to the Mail Scotsman etc
Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP really need to stop getting on with all the building and Nation changing work and being photographed doing it
They need to be on the telly banging on about their sexuality or their leadership problems or the strain of not winning elections due to other parties winning stuff just like other political parties do
All this improving the country nonsense isn’t what we want, we voted against that sort of thing for goodness sake
And another thing all this creating new opportunities for kids is ruining the country, the last thing we need is clever kids telling their parents they’re old fashioned, it’s just cheek and its got to stop and that Sturgeon woman is directly responsible for it all
We’re not stupid Ms Sturgeon we know what you’re up to and we’ll fight you every step of the way, you will not make us a better or different country than Inglind, we are Brutish and will continue to be until the end whether sooner or later, there’ll be no marching into the future here, we are Buttered Together so get back behind your desk and stop doing things we don’t want and start doing the things we do want which is keeping things just the way they have always been without your damn improvements
Bridges Hospitals Roads Sports Centres Flood Defences Wind Turbines Sea Turbines keeping Bloody Steel Mills open creating a sense of pride in people
It’s got to stop
@ben madigan
Post 3rd round press conference …
Question to Barnier – “Are you seeing any sign from the UK they are being flexible?”
Part of his answer – “Some of the issues may have not been debated in sufficient depth in the UK”
… sums it all up in a one liner.
Party conference season should be more interesting than usual. Ruth Davidson will be avoiding questions on the the inherent racism within her party, SLAB will be infighting an jockeying for position under some new non entity, and the Lib Dems will be looking for a room wee enough that they don’t look as bereft of supporters as they are.
giving goose – ha ha thanks for the correction “and women” i should have of course included its me age ha ha auld guffer .
First Minister’s speech today on develoing Scotland’s economy. A total of 4,619 words and not a single mention of the ‘I’ word. Because the speech is about developing Scotland;s economy; about getting on with the ‘day job’.
SNP rather good at doing that in Scotland.
link to snp.org
Forget the weeping and wailing at Kezia Dugdale’s ‘departure’.
Here is her parting gift to the people in Scotland,her
“precious” Labour party,and to her Tory chums in May this year:
“…..Ms Dugdale told voters in the Borders, Highlands and other parts of Scotland that voting Tory was a better way to stop the Scottish National Party than voting for her own party’s candidates…….”
THIS WILL FOREVER BE HOW VOTERS IN SCOTLAND WILL REMEMBER KEZIA DUGDALE.
A SWEET GIFT FROM LABOUR TO THE TORY PARTY—–AND THE TORY PARTY WENT STRAIGHT BACK INTO NO 10 !!
SHAME ON LABOUR.
Quotes from The Express Archived:
link to archive.is
@Peter McCulloch says: 31 August, 2017 at 9:42 am:
“I really would have loved it to have been Rowley as leader .
Why? because he wouldn’t be able to stand the pressure, he’s never served a full term as council leader here in Fife.
He stepped down twice before the local elections, the first time to be secretary of the Labour party? and the second time when he became an MSP.”
What you didn’t mention was the reason he got bombed out of , “secretary of the Labour party”, gig.
He was caught out unable to keep his trousers on and spent a long time in the wilderness while waiting for people to forget that fact. People, especially Labour people, seem to have rather short memory spans but some of we non-Labour people do not forget such things so easily.
I’ve known Alex, and his family, since he was a schoolboy attending school with my step-son. He could have had a brilliant future with Westminster Labour but blew his chances and will blow them again.
The SNP doesn’t need to do anything just now, bar keep the ship running along nicely.
Brexit has not even happened yet.
There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth soon enough.
Let’s see what happens with Corbyn in the period in between.
May has until Brexit negotiations are over, then they will replace her with someone else to fight the next election.
Davidson will have to start answering questions sooner or later.
She’s just an overgrown girl guide with a big shouty mouth.
I think the SNP will be just fine.
The main trouble on the horizon as it always will be is the Yoon media, especially the BBC.
Popcorn time big style.
@Robert Peffers
31 August, 2017 at 1:03 pm
Thanks for that info Robert, the reason
I didn’t mention it, is because I didn’t
know he was bombed out as secretary
of the Labour party gig, due to him being
unable to keep his trousers on.
OT.TODAY…BREXIT NEGOTIATIONS.
Europe’s chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier says there has been no decisive progress on key issues in talks with the UK.
He said negotiations were still quite far away from being in a position to begin talks on future trade arrangements.
He also said there were issues of “trust” between the two sides.
I think Michel Barnier was trying his best to be polite in a chaotic situation. 🙁
VIDEO.European Commission Audiovisual Services:
link to tinyurl.com
OOPS! Michel Barnier link:
link to tinyurl.com
@galamcennalath says: 31 August, 2017 at 9:50 am:
“Sounds like nothing much has been achieved. Perhaps even gone backwards!”
No one needs to be Brain of Britain to figure out the stone cold basic facts.
The European Union is an organisation that has very clear stated aims:-
link to europa.eu
And I quote a passage as a direct cut & paste from their introduction page:-
Anyone who thinks there was ever going to be concessions of the core aims of the EU such as freedom of movement, open borders within the union or the rights of the EU citizens who are obviously also citizens of their own member state but thus any state not a member state cannot have the same rights and privileges of eu/own state, citizens.
If the EU were to grant a NON-EU United Kingdom the same rights & privileges as member state citizens the EU would be diluting the rights & privileges of their own citizens.
There are some rights & privileges that are shared to a limited extent by associate states but these are very limited and must be paid for by the non-member associate state. Norway is a case in point.
The Westminster numpties fondly imagine the EU needs them more than they need the EU. They are sadly misinformed – or more correctly uninformed. There cannot, for example, be a great big gaping hole in the Schengen Agreement borders that a open border between Ireland & Northern Ireland would create.
You cannot belong to a free trade zone and trade freely outside that free trade zone. That would create a hole for smugglers that could not be policed or closed.
There really is no such thing as a soft UKExit and there can be no BREXIT because Britain, (per se), is not an EU member state so thus cannot exit what it isn’t in.
Westminster has far too big an impression of its own importance than it actually has. This, in my opinion, because it suited the USA to allow Westminster to think there was a, “Special Relationship”, with the USA that has never actually existed except in Westminster perceptions.
This is, after all the same organisation that imagines that Scotland could not exist outside the United Kingdom when every bit of actual evidence not only shows many smaller, and poorer, nations than Scotland do very well indeed and a little bit of clear thinking shows that, even by Westminster’s own data, the Scottish Per Capita GDP is normally higher than either England or the UK as a whole, (did I spell that last word correctly)?
some very valid points made about the eu and the noises coming out of the eu at the moment look like they will say non on the 8th october.
that will be a red letter day
for those demanding nicola announce a date for indyre2, i would urge you to hold off until at least that date
we will then know if the eu is willing to move onto talks regarding transitional trade agreements
my money is on not
@Peter McCulloch says: 31 August, 2017 at 1:24 pm:
” … I didn’t
know he was bombed out as secretary
of the Labour party gig, due to him being
unable to keep his trousers on.”
Yep! Bit of a scandal at the time but, as usual, well played down by the BBC and the rest of the Scottish media but I’ve no doubt their will be some record of the events still around.
Then there was the local rage at his very first actions on his first elevation to leader of Fife Council.
His first actions were to close down several Council run homes for OAPs & Disabled people. Including a drop in scheme that ran at the Woodlands Centre at the then Hospital for mentally Handicapped people. This paid the patients, who lived outside institutions, a quite small sum to attend and do useful work at, “The Woodland’s Centre”.
They made very high quality paving slabs, garden furniture and such like for sale to the public, (which helped to pay that small sum they got for attending the centre), and it had the great benefit of keeping them in off the street corners and out of trouble.
His next move was to splurge out on a, then rather expensive, pink leather suite for his own, “Fife House”, Office in Glenrothes.
As always Alex had his priorities right. Next thing he’s off to a high level Scottish Labour Party post – followed by a playing-away from home sex scandal and a period in the wilderness.
Some of we old campaigners, though, have long, long memories.
I used to have lots of these sort of notes, on the then contemporary political scene, on hard disk. I probably still have them but by todays standards the hard disks are far too small capacity but I still have the disks though the machines they came from are long ago scrapped.
O/T.
More photo’s of last nights convoy , photos 1/3 German visitors who support Scottish Independence 7/8 my Wife.
link to facebook.com
I just wonder what the REAL reason for Dugdale’s departure. I’ll keep my legal thoughts to myself.
I just wonder what the REAL reason for Dugdale’s departure is. I’ll keep my legal thoughts to myself.
Aweright Jim Arnott ~
Aye, it could be something to do with the power of our collective wings…
Wouldn’t it be fitting if the recently resigned, decided (independently) to make a five-figure donation to a good cause.
I know of one very worthy cause.
Hi Ronny.
That link you provided at 2.46pm is returning the message:-
“Sorry, this content isn’t available at the moment
The link you followed may have expired, or the Page may only be visible to an audience that you aren’t in.” – and that’s with me being told to log in to see it, which I did.
SHAZBOT!
More noises regarding “coming out of the EU” @schrodingers cat says at 2:21 pm
Speaking about Theresa May: “She’s delusional. The whole of the British elite are f***ing delusional.
“They want to leave the single market but retain access to the single market. Why the f*** are you leaving then? It’s just bananas, but you’re lions led by f***ing donkeys at the moment – you elected them, so it’s your fault.”
link to archive.is
Sinky -So we have two members of highly privileged elite looking to head up the one time workers party.
——
Dislike them both intensely but never forget the great and talented Roy Williamson (The Corries) attended Gordonstoun.
Scot Finlayson,
“and anyone who feels sorry for her need a reality check.”
Agree totally with that.
This is the woman who tried to destroy the Rev. Stuart Campbell.
And we have posters on his website expressing sympathy for her.
The most stupid people on earth are in Scotland, but even out of those the most stupid are apparently supporters of independence.
This woman has zero credibility and is a total liar.
Let her vote Yes if she wants, but she should not be allowed anywhere near the Yes movement.
As someone has typed recently, you don’t have to be a member of an accredited YES group to vote YES when it matters.
Starlaw- If skeletons are to be found in Mr Leonards cupboard, please wait till he is elected then find them (-
(Mr Leonard – I bet he’s the most googled guy in the last 24hrs)
Dinnae fash yersel Starlaw, you can be assured that the media and the BBC have that covered. Won’t matter whether he’s Scotland’s answer to Ghandi or Satan himself, it will still be SNP Baad.
However, my bet is on the reincarnated Corbynite, Anas Sarwar
Thanks Robert Peffers/Crazycat I’ll give it a go next time
The clincher for Brexit was the fortress Britain (England) mentality which is all for free movement of English holiday makers and colonialists but against immigration (especially of people who are not pasty white).
Given that globalisation has made international borders almost entirely transparent for the movement of capital whether for industry, investment or squirreling into tax havens it is only reasonable that borders allow free movement of people who need to follow the money in order to make a living.