Can open, worms everywhere
A convention of the world’s finest satirists pulling a 24-hour shift on Red Bull couldn’t come up with anything to beat Labour’s position on renewing the UK’s Trident nuclear weapons system. Following an overwhelming vote at the Scottish Labour conference this afternoon, these are the current cut-out-and-keep standings:
But it’s even better than that.
We should in passing perhaps note that we’re not at all sure why the decision is being reported as news. After all, Scottish Labour shadow cabinet minister Neil Findlay told Marr Show viewers 12 months ago that “it’s already Labour Party policy in Scotland to oppose the renewal of Trident. Has been for some time”.
But at least from now on Findlay should hopefully be able to remember the date the resolution was passed, throwing the party into the sort of chaos normally reserved for cartoons featuring the Tasmanian Devil on a waltzer in a china shop on board a ship going down a whirlpool in a hurricane.
When the UK parliament votes on the renewal of Trident, possibly in the next few weeks, UK Labour policy will still be to support it, in line with a motion passed at the party’s conference a month ago.
Its only Scottish MP, Ian Murray, who told us this week that he takes the UK party whip, will therefore be ordered to act in accordance with the policy of the party, and that of Kezia Dugdale, who nominally controls all Scottish Labour parliamentarians in both Westminster and Holyrood and supports renewal.
Murray, however, will in fact not do so. He opposes renewal, as does his UK leader Jeremy Corbyn, and now the Scottish branch office whose only representative in the Commons he is. Murray has declined to specify exactly how he’ll vote, but the most likely outcome seems to be that he’ll abstain, either with or without permission.
Murray and Dugdale both this week floated the idea of an “agreed abstention” when Scottish and UK Labour policies conflicted, although both also said that the process which would allow such a thing had not yet been formulated.
They’ll have to get their skates on, because clearly if Murray rejected the official whip he would in normal circumstances have to step down as a shadow minister, leaving Labour to nominate either an English MP or a Scottish peer like Lord Foulkes as the shadow Scottish Secretary.
Scottish Labour will then, we must presume, stand at the 2016 Holyrood election – if the Electoral Commission allows it to, which under electoral law it shouldn’t – on a policy of opposing something that UK Labour will have just voted for at Westminster, and which only UK Labour has the power to do anything about, and which the only Scottish Labour MP who actually had a vote on it will have neither supported nor opposed, and which Scottish Labour’s own leader will also support.
We suspect the SNP aren’t going to stop laughing until some time next July.
The classic example of say whatever pish you like when you know you’ll never be in power North or South of the border again.
“the Tasmanian Devil on a waltzer in a china shop on board a ship going down a whirlpool in a hurricane.”
Your visual imagery is magnificent, Rev. Even better than yesterday’s pneumatic drill.
John McTernan will be delighted: Labour policy on Trident is all things to all men, and even a bit for women. Job done.
No. Let’s be absolutely clear about this. Scottish (sic) Labour Party policy on Trident renewal is clearly quantum. We are both for and against Trident renewal at the same time. We can’t be any clearer than that.
That is as accurate a position that we can take on this issue in the world that we, the Scottish (sic) Labour Party live in.
Thanks for clarifying that.
I can see one solution to the conundrum. They could vote to renew it but base it on the Thames. Next to the Houses of Parliament. That should ensure it is never used. Win win?
That’s not much of a win, because then we still have to pay for it.
When they say agreed abstenstion do they mean “not back each other up as in no unity and a party divided”?
If Scottish Labour is now autonomous, Kezia should appoint Ian Murray as her party whip in Westminster – then he can tell himself how to vote rather than have to follow UK Labour Policy which conflicts with that of Scottish labour.
I hope the political interviewers are itching for an opportunity to ask her whether she has done that….
When it comes to a vote at WM and the imposition of a party’s whip who decides to impose the whip and whether the whip is to support or oppose the matter on which the vote is being taken?
Is it the Party Leader? If not- who?
If it isn’t the Leader and the leader defies the whip as may happen with Corbyn when it comes to voting for Trident Replacement what the hell happens?
Oh what a tangled web Labour weaves – the old expression of ‘not knowing whether to have a s–t or a haircut’ comes to mind.
There is a huge space rock due to hit Earth in the next few days:
The big questions are, do you,
a) go outside and watch the pretty light show, however brief?
b) hide in the deepest cave and hope it will all blow over?
c) do we put options a) and b) to next year’s Scottish Labour Party Conference?
Answers to Kez Dugdale, Cloud Cuckoo, Alterantive Reality.
Oh dear, that poor wee dug is going to get well and truly yanked back to heal! Ouch.
Rev even Taz is getting dizzy watching them whirling about he stuck his tongue out blew a great big raspberry at them and buggered off saying he had a migraine lol
Murray has become very adept at doing nothing (i.e. abstaining) while being very vocal about actually achieving something positive by doing said nothing.
If Corbyn did decide to replace him, he could always appoint one of the Scottish Lords.
Shouldn’t Scottish labour consider deselecting MSPs who oppose Scottish Labour’s stated policy positions?
Otherwise it’s a collection of individuals saying pretty much anything they choose.
Ah, now I understand that big “CHANGE” motto above the stage at the branch office’s party conference. It signals the beginning of a new kind of politics which goes beyond Blair’s third-way approach: it’s called chameleon politics.
I remember Bob Hope as “Son of Paleface “,getting advice from 8 different people before having a shoot out with a bad guy.
Every one gave different advice leaving him repeating it all gibberishly.
This is Labours Son of Paleface moment.
@Scott Borthwick
“If Corbyn did decide to replace him, he could always appoint one of the Scottish Lords.”
Oh do let it be Zebedee to take front stage with Florence and Ermitrude.
Scott Borthwick says:
1 November, 2015 at 3:28 pm
Murray has become very adept at doing nothing (i.e. abstaining) while being very vocal about actually achieving something positive by doing said nothing.
If Corbyn did decide to replace him, he could always appoint one of the Scottish Lords.
Lord Brown?
No,No I didn’t really say that, the cat jumped on the keyboard – honest!
@Bob Mack
Another aprapos scene would be ‘the vessel with the pessil’ one featuring Danny Kaye in ‘A Yankee at the Court of King Arthur’.
Some-one needs to point out to these Labour lumps that constantly abstaining isn’t any way to represent your constituents.
Surely this inept Labour lot are capable of working it out for themselves that the electorate expects, nay, demands that they stand for something.
I listened to the BBC’s John Pienaar go on and on about “Momentum” being a party within a party and the dangers of such a structure. it was on Radio 5 Live this morning.
The Scottish Labour Accounting Unit are effectively doing this on TV.
Surely this is the chance for a Scottish journalist to address this conflicting mess?
That’s not much of a win, because then we still have to pay for it.
Very true. But since nobody in Scotland wants Trident (leaving aside the Tory/LibDem superminority) it isn’t really UK expenditure. Think of the Barnett consequentials. And will it be an England only matter?
Labour policy is, after all, evolving. I only offer relocation as one solution.
@Chic McGregor @frogesque. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it. Wouldn’t want to give them any ideas…
Oh yes we are against Trident,
Oh no we are not!
Oh what a farce!
At the conference, was the audience shouting ” He’s behind you”
when Murray walked behind Dipity Dug?
I’ll bet they threw sweets out to those that still had their teeth, and they followed the bouncing ball in order to sign along with a funny song.
Does the show run right through to January!
This actually reminds me of Chris Cairns’ brilliant “Pushme-Pullyou” cartoon – 2 heids going in opposite directions and never the twain shall meet! 🙂
Schrödinger’s Trident
New, Nu, No Labour policy…
@ Effijy
I think it runs until May 🙁
That is another broken rib from laughing so much again. Who knew politics SLAB style could be so lung puncturing.
I am not expecting the Brit Nat Press and Media to keep this comedy sketch going though as Monday will no doubt be another full on SNP BAD AND SCOTS USELESS day.
Seriously, Ladies and Gentleman all. We need a brand new sparkly word for ‘Omnishambles’.
Somehow it just doesn’t seem to have the right note these days.
There’s something about the nuclear deterrent that I’ve always been curious about. As it’s apparently not intended to be used and the only way we know anybody has them is because they say they have them, why do we need them at all? I’d be very happy to set up a crowdfund to build some dummy weapons like the dummy CCTV cameras and alarm boxes you can already get.
I’d only charge 1 billion. I’m not greedy, after all. Well, maybe 2, to cover admin and p&p.
I am aware that there are nuclear tests which prove capability, but the UK has not performed such a test since 1991. Are we absolutely sure we don’t just have some nicely painted metal tubes? If so, where did the money go?
Here’s how the British Bullshit Corporation Teletext spins it:
“Scottish Labour party delegates have backed a vote to scrap the UK’s Trident nuclear missile system, which is based at Faslane naval base on the Clyde.”
“A motion at the party’s conference in Perth calling for the UK’s nuclear deterrent not to be renewed was supported by an overwhelming majority.”
“Both party members and unions voted 70% in favour of the motion.”
“It means Labour now hold different positions on the issue north and south of the border.”
Aye, but what they deliberately don’t make clear is that Slabber will do and accept exactly what their London masters dictate. They also fail to make it clear that this is only about “Trident renewal” and has absolutely nothing to do with Labours position on other forms of WMD’. Or have i got this wrong?
Anyway, it’s all smoke and mirrors, Slabber will do what they’re told. It’s a bit like the butler not wanting to keep the family silver – he’s onto plums persuading the master to ditch it.
Slabber and the unions had a clear chance to dump all this warmongering and vile waste of money on the 18 September 2014, forever, but they voted to retain it.
Warmongering smouldering sacks of shit, every last one of them.
How can to tell the different pish by Ian Murray and Neil Findlay?
Are they related? Could see Murray on Banjo
“Murray and Dugdale both this week floated the idea of an “agreed abstention” ”
Is that not what they do when they can’t be arsed voting like the lazy turds they are, Next Katy Clark will wheeled out as an “alleged Socialist” for Holyrood
Anent Tasmanian Devil and Danny Kaye, I recall: “The one without the parsley’s the one without the poison. The one without the parsley’s the one without the poison” Eddie Cantor, Roman Scandals 1933.
Kezia, ” Let me very clear. We have judo-ed wursels”.
Oooo, the dilemma for HM Opposition.
I can see them debating now.
“To abstain, or not to abstain; that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the House to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous Tories,
Or to take votes against a sea of policies,
And by opposing end them.”
Nah.
Let’s abstain.
I’ll judge them on their record in Office. That is why I would never vote for shysters.
Me Dugdale says that there are more people in Scotland in prison than in Universities. Some of them were Labour MPs.
So in a nutshell .. Labour in Scotland are now going to fight tooth and nail to protect Scotland from the evils Labour in Scotland fought tooth and nail a year ago to keep us part off.
Something no quite right about this .. No I give up.
If we assume the Westminster party is whipped to follow the UK conference decision what does Corbyn do?
If he votes for he will be a hypocrite – likewise if he abstains – and his position as leader will be untenable.
If he orders a free vote in spite of a clear mandate from conference to vote in favour of renewal his position will be untenable.
If the motion is “whipped” and Corbyn, as leader, goes against the very whip which by definition he has ordered then presumable his position will be, again, untenable.
How can there be anyway out of this corner he has been painted into?
The Scottish Government should now force a vote on Trident renewal in the Scottish Parliament. Let’s see if the (Not) Labour leader in Scotland or any of her fellow MSPs, will uphold the decision of the Scottish conference?
If she/they don’t then it make a mockery of any claims re. autonomy, democracy or listening better.
Staring vaguely into the middle distance… contemplating a bigger popcorn maker!
Kezia reputedy to have said
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” or maybe it was a ‘still labour delegate’.
Were through the looking glass now! 🙂
Now, if we can just get agreement on “agreed abstention” we can straighten our shoulders, stiffen our spine and stand up for….well, nothing,really.
PS the poor Tasmanian Devil does not look to have much of a future.
Be fair, we are moving into the panto season!
Can’t wait to read Jacqui Baillie’s election leaflets – they’ll be comedy gold next year, especially after all that Better Together stuff on Trident and job losses during the referendum campaign.
Labour, more faces than the toon clock.
So Labour are crystal clear that clarity is only important when the need for it arises, and in that event a debate will have to be raised on whether to be clear or not on the subject of clarity, and the Labour party have always been clear on that
From the Ian Murray Little Book of Answers, or not, depending on the circumstances, whether those take place or not
[…] Can open, worms everywhere […]
The Rev wrote:
“We suspect the SNP aren’t going to stop laughing until some time next July.”
Aye, and then some!
@ froesque Naw lets keep Omnishambles we kin tart it up ah bit wie some Glitter.
Quantum politics, indeed!
Schrodinger’s cat among the pigeons.
This surely means Scotland and Scottish Government can reject Trident as only Mundell can oppose,
Alistair Carmichael will be in court.
Sorted
Scottish Labour stalwart and advisory on all things Red Tory had the following to say on the cost of Trident just two months ago in the Torygraph:
” Third, the argument about costs needs to be taken head on. Peacenik NGOs have invented a figure of £100bn for the cost of Trident renewal. There is no science behind this except that of the “big lie” (repeat anything often enough and it gets in the cuttings and gets recycled).
Disgracefully, civil servants in Scotland published the figure in official publications. Even more disgracefully, the UK government has no capacity or commitment to rebut that lie. The true cost of Trident is £25bn over a 50 year life — £500m a year. Expensive? Yes. Excessive? No.”
link to archive.is
The “Peacenik NGOs” he refers to I assume are the members of the Trident Commission.
“Critics have previously said Britain will need to spend 100 billion pounds, a figure based on a 2014 report by the independent Trident Commission.”
link to archive.is
The independent Trident Commission, who are they?
“The Commission operated under the chairmanship of Lord Browne of Ladyton (Des Browne), former Labour Secretary of State for Defence, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, former Conservative Defence and Foreign Secretary, and Sir Menzies Campbell, former leader of the Liberal Democrats and Shadow Foreign Secretary. It was launched on February 9, 2011 in Parliament.”
link to archive.is
The £100Bn figure was indeed a lie, we now know that it is more like £167Bn.
Chic,
think it went..the chalice from the palace holds the pellet with the poison, the vessel with the pestle holds the brew that is true, from ” the court jester” .
Anyone else think Scottish Labour have walked into another elephant trap? It feels very similar to their rejection of the second question in the independence referendum.
Scottish Labour have just voted against the renewal of Trident. The SNP have said they want to have a debate in the Commons about that very subject. They may even have already secured one. We know that there is no way on earth that the Labour PLP in the Commons would vote against the renewal of Trident. They will be hopelessly split between Corbyn and his faction, and the right wing of the party. When the British Labour Party vote for the renewal of Trident, the question will have to asked of Scottish Labour of why on earth they voted against independence, given that the only realistic way for Scotland to get rid of nuclear weapons is through a Yes vote to indy. They will look even more stupid and incompetent than at present.
frogesque says:
1 November, 2015 at 4:02 pm
Seriously, Ladies and Gentleman all. We need a brand new sparkly word for ‘Omnishambles’.
What about “Fundimundily Fractured Fraud”
Next May I’m going to abstain and vote SNP in the Constituency vote. I’m going to then abstain further and vote SNP in the list vote. I will defy the SNP whip at every opportunity. Long live Nicola!
This is fun.
Today folks we are going to play a new game. It is called “Spot a policy that the WHOLE of the party can agree on!”
Before you all rush out to buy this stunning new politically schemed board game just remember this is a game that requires a great deal of thought and should not be played whilst partaking of liquid refreshment. Should you partake of said refreshments whilst playing you will undoubtedly find yourself arguing … with yourself on many occasions before the game has been completed! 😀
This game comes with the official backing of the Labour party, just in case you were wondering. 😀
In the wierd and wonderful un collapsed 11th dimensional probability wave of labour politics…the Dug has principles, but until a journalist observes them, they remain uncertain. She will continue to excerpt a spooky type action over a distance in Westminster until the holyrood election brings her back down to reality with a bump. At which point she will be relegated to the alternative reality that Murphy now inhabits.
Do we know where each of the Labour shadow cabinet at Holyrood stands on Trident renewal?
@Andy
That’s it
The chalice from the palace (of Westmister) holds the pellet with the poison, the vessel with the missile holds the buroo place for you.
How’s that “more autonomy” thingy working out then Kezia. What happened to that “no-one will be in any doubt” quote your promotional conference video?
Schrodinger’s new experiment –
Place stuffed cat in sealed box with Kez and Jez. To determine whether either are politically alive or dead, abstain from opening box until SNP stop laughing as referred to by Rev Stu ………….. mmmmmm…ah, it appears all three are stuffed.
Following on from yesterday’s wee musical interlude, I give you this as a prime example of Labour and the Trident conundrum. 😉
link to youtube.com
What a god awful mess labour is, you just could not make it up. They are very keen to quote SOME of the words of Keir Hardy.
He must be shaking his head from on high, listening to all this garbage.
There is no autonomy for Slab, only perhaps the wee wee bits that are allowed by their London godfathers.
Smoke and mirrors combined with shite.There really no place for labour to go. I see a party split coming at UK level. Slab is of little use to Labour UK especially with EVEL.
mike cassidy says:
1 November, 2015 at 5:00 pm
“Quantum politics, indeed!
Schrodinger’s cat among the pigeons.”
Think they need a bigger vacuum then.
There needs to be another live debate. All the head honchos of the Labour party and its scottish accounting unit, up on a stage debating exactly what the fuck they are all about. We need to get to the bottom of this and fast ????
Now that Labour, branch office, has voted AGAINST Trident where does this leave wee Jackie Baillie?
I only ask cause during the referendum, other occasions are also available 😉 , she was adamant that removing Trident would cost THOUSANDS of jobs. Funnily enough though she would NEVER actually articulate EXACTLY where these thousands of jobs would be lost from other than leave the implication lying around that they were all to be lost from Helensburgh and Faslane! 😀
Schrodinger’s new experiment –
Place stuffed cat in sealed box with Kez and Jez. …..
Um…can I just take the licorice torpedo option now.?
@Andy
P.S. that was a generic ‘you’ not a ‘you’ you.
Thanks for correcting my memory burp, been busy with only a minute here and there to post and no time to google memory check.
Just watched a clip of Dippity Dug on the national EBC News.
Door-stepped outside the conference, she had perhaps ten seconds in which to get across the significance of the vote, and she blew it, speaking about Me, Me, Me.
The lassie is so far out of her depth it is embarrassing.
SLab gone from Laughing stock to irrelevant.
I will be taking a punt on Tories being the second largest party in Scotland come May.
Which will be great because when that happens even more diehard labour voters will turn to the SNP.
Labour voters……..put yer brain care specialists on danger money…
I dont think the PLP need to worry about Momentum deselecting them, the momentum within the Labour party and supporters will deselect them. Amazing that when you remove the professional politicians the party votes overwhelmingly, like 70:30, none of your gnats whisker 55:45, overwhelmingly against Son of Trident.
Its only the PLP that backs Son of Trident, probably out of a desire to be able to cross the floor and be acceptable to the Tories, and the grass roots in rUK would vote as SLab have. It was only by hiding Son of Trident in the otherwise motherhood and apple pie report that the politicians managed to keep SoT off the real Labour Party agenda.
As for the Union bosses and their job losses: Just how many jobs for how many years will be lost by not having SoT and then divide that into £167,000,000,000. Even at MP’s salaries that is 2.25 million MP years “worth” of jobs.
With the lifetime cost now estimated at £167 billion, up from £100 billion, it’s still possible I guess that the Tories will decide not to go ahead and save Lab’s ass.
On another thing the UK is building a naval base in Bahrain, the first for 50 years in the Middle East. I’m surprised the media haven’t noised this up to tempt the vile cybernats to go frothy about £15 million, so they then point out most of the cost is being taken by Bahrain. Then possibly to point out it helps support the anti-piracy operations round the Horn of Africa, and perhaps (my guess) to point out that UK “ongoing costs” could actually be a saving on suporting naval operations from back home in dear old Blighty, or from Gib.
But there’s always Monday for them.
Chic
Ha ha, preferred your updated version !
To paraphrase (~probably) Richard Feynman “if you think you understand labour party policy, you don’t understand labour party policy”
well lets see how the media spin this little gem , on auntys website everything this nutjob party promotes as policy, is just regurgitated ,without any critical analysis , its like some kind of parallel universe where a lie is presented as the truth, with the media backing them up , i seem to remember seeing this before wasn’t it 1984 Orwell?
Where does this leave the ever honourable and trustworthy Jackie Baillie? After all this upstanding senior Labour MSP was never off the telly last year in support of Trident telling us all in hushed tones that getting rid of Trident would cost thousands and thousands of jobs. I remember this vividly because I kept waiting for the various BBC interviewers to intervene and ask her to justify such nonsense. Of course I waited in vain – instead the BBC allowed honest Jackie to spout her made-up nonsense without interruption time and time again.
Coloosal Cave (CC)
CC: You are in a maze of little twisty passages, all alike
*drops torch*
CC:
Lesley-Anne says:
1 November, 2015 at 5:48 pm
Now that Labour, branch office, has voted AGAINST Trident where does this leave wee Jackie Baillie?
Ruby Replies
Very good point Lesley-Anne!
‘Scottish Labour vote for 1000’s of Scottish Job loses’
Jeremy Corbyn wants 1000s of people in Scotland to lose their jobs.
Labour are nothing if not entertaining.
It should be interesting watching this pan out over the next wee while. Meanwhile the UK version of the party will back Trident.
Colossal Cave (CC)
CC: You are in a maze of little twisty passages, all alike.
Ahead of you the passage turns to the left or to the right.
:*drops torch*
CC:
:
(I’ll get there in the end, but what about Labour?
Ah, got it.
Dugdale: xyzzy
CC: nothing happens
This all put me in mind of the three stooges skit of Who’s on First. Slab really are comedy gold. 😉
Find it here.
link to m.youtube.com
;D
Red and blue toryboy world really wants austerity nukes. England cant afford to build social housing or pay for kids uni but they must be able the destroy life on earth as we know it. Vote Lab not Slab. We’re shackled to maniacs, UKOK maniacs.
Ooops 🙂
link to youtube.com
Hope this one works if not google three stooges who’s on first!
The Labour First Minister of Wales’ position on Trident is to move them here and park them next to our LNG and oil refineries.
A new word for Labour policy on defence options.
“Tridentitis”
The shape of things to come… (The following isn’t pleasant reading)
So, if we have learned anything since May its that the Scottish ballot box doesn’t make any real difference in terms of the distribution of power. In short, Scottish people can vote for whoever and whatever they like.
The bottom line is they are going to stick Trident down our throats, despite the two main parties up here (representing about 75% of the population) being against it. Same with the cuts to tax credits, EVEL, the Scotland Bill, you name — “doesn’t matter how you vote, we are sticking it down your gullet. Get it up you…”
Dugdale represents UK Labour throwing in the towel up here. The role of the Scottish Labour Party henceforth is to serve as an attack dog for the British state, not the UK Labour Party as such; the Scottish news media will naturally help out as always.
This is the new structure and dynamic of Scottish politics and its premised on the fact that it no longer matters how we vote. A similar tactics was used by New Labour to undermine the Tories back in the 90s and if I remember correctly they called it triangulation.
We have a couple of examples of this new role for Scottish Labour and the system in action and we are about to see more. Thus, cuts to working tax credit is going to be painted as the SNP’s fault. That’s just starting and Dugdale’s emphasis on tis issue in her speech was no accident; the papers are already starting on this line, as some of you are aware. Watch the pressure build on the SNP.
That’s the pattern, then: Tories introduce cuts, the SNP would naturally object and have a discussion about that but the attack dog who blames the SNP for the cuts prevents any meaningful debate. The exact same process unfolded last week in regards to cuts to NHS spending and before that something very similar unfolded with EVEL; no meaningful objection or debate was possible because Labour played its key part in preventing it.
Very soon the emphasis will shift to dismantling Barnett. This will effectively result in huge cuts up here and we would naturally take issues with the Tories doing that. But you won’t get a chance to take issue with the Tories, instead you’ll face the Labour attack dog who will blame everything on the SNP, lie, and twist the whole debate with help from cohorts in the media — thus, “it’s only fair now that Scotland has all these devolved powers, can’t have it both ways, the SNP asked for more power so this is the price…”
And don’t forget, if you don’t like it, there’s not a thing you can do about it because it doesn’t matter at all now how you vote. That’s the lesson of May and the 58 SNP representatives.
JK Rowling described how Scotland will benefit from voting to stay in the union in that, afterwards, we would have all the heady confidence of the wife who decided to stay… Well this is it. This is the reward for staying: tories setting about us with a blow torch on one hand, and their attack dog, Labour, blaming the SNP on the other. The long term plan is that after a decade or so of cuts and abuse we will get our minds right, ditch the SNP, and vote a unionist party again.
So the now “autonomous Scottish labour” party
votes against trident renewal .Well Kezia when the “Real Labour Party” is “UK London Labour ”
votes for renewal , please explain to the Scottish electorate precisely what you are
going to do about it ?? “Emigrate” ??
Now that Scottish Labour have voted against Trident what is their position re Nato?
So the now “autonomous Scottish labour” party
votes against trident renewal .Well Kezia when the “Real Labour Party” ie.”UK London Labour ”
votes for renewal , please explain to the Scottish electorate precisely what you are
going to do about it ?? “Emigrate” ??
Keith Hartley is Emeritus Professor of Economics at
the University of York. This following are extracts from his paper:
“Defence-Industrial Issues: Employment, Skills, Technology and Regional Impacts” March 2012.
“In 2011, the United Kingdom deployed 11 SSBN and SSN submarines requiring a total crew of 1,418 Navy personnel. Continuous deployment of submarines requires a multiple of these crew numbers, say, about 1.6 crews per submarine: hence, an estimated total of some 2,300 Navy personnel to provide crews for the United Kingdom’s nuclear-powered submarine fleet.”
“Overall, the UK submarine fleet supported some 31,000 jobs in 2011 comprising military personnel,industrial and civilian jobs. Within this total, the UK submarine construction industry employed some 5,000 personnel directly and about 4,000 personnel in the supply chain (indirect).”
“Operation and support work:
Civilians. Two groups of civilians are involved, namely, those employed by MoD(MoD civilians) and those employed by private contractors (mainly by the Babcock Group). It is estimated that HMNB Clyde employed some 3,200 civilian personnel on submarine work in 2011.”
“The worst case scenario for submarine-related jobs
assumes that after 2052, the United Kingdom will withdraw completely from the operation of nuclear-powered submarines. The result would be the loss of 9,200 jobs after 2037 followed by the loss of a further 21,700 jobs after 2052: a total of almost 31,000 jobs being lost.”
link to basicint.org
Labour’s latest policy statement to be written in pencil so it can be rubbed out and changed when necessary.
Is Jackie Baillie a wave or a particle?
We ought to be told.
X-sticks, I’m pretty sure that the original source of the quote you paraphrase is from Niels Bohr. Earlier than Feynman
Hvis man kan sætte sig ind i kvantemekanik uden at blive svimmel, har man ikke forstået noget af det,«) “If you can fathom quantum mechanics without getting dizzy, you don’t get it.
I’m sure Hoss could confirm as he is a natural philospher
I’ve done a quick google on Slab shadow cabinet members Trident views.This is by no means thorough and I’d be pleased if others could fill in the blanks.
Kezia Dugdale pro trident.
Alex Rowley anti
Jenny Marra pro
Iain Gray ?
Graeme Pearson ?
Jackie Baillie pro
Ken MacIntosh pro
Sarah Boyack anti
Claire Baker ?
Mary Fee ?
James Kelly?
Neil Bibby?
You can just hear them campaigning on the doors “scottish labour are against trident etc” when it s basically a load of shite.
How can the have a different policy from UK Labour?
Total nonsense.
if electoral commision allowed this then politcis in this country is a total joke.
An amazing 96 per cent against Trident renewal in Bath Stu..
link to tinyurl.com
but… where were you last night?
link to tinyurl.com
and for the headline and last sentence alone..
link to tinyurl.com
Never a dull moment in Bath 🙂
For an extra chortle, it’s worth noting that the only people still voting labour in Scotland are those Blairites on the right (the ones who backed Murphy), who will presumably be keen to renew Trident.
Almost forgot
Eleanor Bradford ?
Thepnr at 7.23
You are confusing nuclear powered submarines with nuclear armed ones (Trident). It is the nuclear armed ones that are the objection and they employ around 550 persons
It’s all about the newspaper headlines.
I don’t use Twitter but I keep an eye on various people’s Twitter feeds on-line. One thing I have noticed is that Dugdale’s feed is all about the publicity. If it’s not selfies (taken by herself – unlike Nicla who appears in OTHER people’s selfies), it’s ‘here I am in the paper’ or ‘here I am on the telly’ or ‘here I am showing I’m caring by doing caring things’.
Kezia is like a giddy teenager constantly ‘refreshing’ her ‘page’ to find out how many more ‘likes’ she’s got for her post.
They can renew it all they like but they’ll still have the headache of where to put it when Scotland votes Yes next time around.
The question now to be asked of the few remaining Labour supporters is “Would an independent Scotland have allowed the worlds biggest collection of murderous nuclear weapons to be sited next to its largest city?” followed by “Will Labour in Scotland ask Labour to campaign for the re-siting of Trident to England?”
And threaten to support independence if this is not agreed.
Rather like “would an independent Scotland have closed down its own steel industry” or “would an independent Scotland have squandered 50 years of oil revenues?” or “would an independent Scotland have invaded Iraq?”
Slab seem to be trying to cover all the bases.
“we’re against trident, but also for it, just in case”.
The old Marxist cliche ” these are my policies – and if you don’t like them, I have others! ( that’s Groucho, of course ) is ever poignant. The party is asking the people what they want, then tailoring their manifestos to suit.
That’s not a political direction, that’s keeping your job.
If a prospective employer asks a candidate ” what do you do? ” he/she doesn’t expect the reply ” what do you want me to do? ”
Hopefully the interviewers in this case ( the people of Scotland ) will appoint the superior applicant!
@Dave McEwan Hill
No Dave, I am not confused at all. In fact you make my point for me, the UK Submarine fleet is more than just Trident and they are serviced mainly at Faslane.
All submarines need to be serviced, only 1/3 of them are carrying nuclear weapons. The figure you quote of 550 civilian jobs directly related to Trident might just be the truth of the matter.
Would greatly appreciate a direct link to such. My whole point if you read the paper is that the threat to jobs is greatly exaggerated and that it would be over decades.
In fact the UK is currently in the process of building 7 new Astute class submarines, 3 of which are already in service. Most recent “Artful, arrived on 19 August 2015 in HMNB Clyde for sea trials and is entering service later in 2015.”
Scrapping Trident would not result in any job losses whatsoever with a properly managed defence policy. This is what the SNP proposed by making Faslane the main Naval base of an Independent Scotland.
Hopefully, we in Scotland won’t have to worry too much nor for too much longer about UK policy and in the future will make our own mind up.
I can’t remember who penned the phrase Weapons of Mass Genocide is a far more apt description of Trident.
Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon is Scotland’s most popular person I wonder why.
@thepnr
of the Astute class Astute and Ambush are fully operational and Artful undergong sea trials. Agamennon is being built at Barrow with the keel laid in 2013. Anson is just at the component stage, and Audacious isn’t started. Target for completion of the propulsion (Rolls Roycs) is 2023. The 7th Astute not named yet I think.
Few of the construction and supply jobs will be in Scotland. There are currently still 4 Trafalgar class – Talent, Torbay, Trenchant and Triumph. Talent and Triumph will move to Faslane, but Torbay and Trenchant remain at Devonport until they’re decommissioned in 2017 and 2019.
Astute is nothing to do with Trident, no idea if the RN would move the SSNs back to Devonport if Successor (Trident SSBN) was cancelled, they could if they wanted I guess as there’d be 2 SSN left there anyway. In any case Sucessor would be built at Barrow, not in Scotland.
For interest work has begun at Portsmouth to revamp the base to host the QE carriers, which would seem to indicate no chance of T26 build being moved back there. I ahve my doubts the full 13 T26 will be built unless they cancel Successor, and if they cut the program it makes each one more expensive so likely there’d only be perhaps 7. That’d be jobs lost in Scotland, way before any lost on Trident from around 2028.
It’s quite funny in a way.
Dugdale’s all-new ‘autonomous’ Labour in Scotland made to look like a joke already.
And the perfect example of the union benefits they campaigned for alongside the Tories. The majority in England calling the shots.
Scottish Labour: “We reject Trident”
UK Labour: “Shut up and know your place.”
Why does the english government refer to trident as a nuclear deterrent whilst stating that other countries have nuclear arms?
Quick update on T26, 3 kind of ordered early in the year, apologists would say they’re always ordered in batches but BaE wanted and didn’t get basically, a bigger order which is partly why they’re not going ahead wit their “2 a year” frigate fatory at Scotstoun, the other being perhaps Osborne’s proud boast “1 warship every 2 years”, whereas it should probably be the other way around. That wouldn’t have helped BaE’s T26 export possibilities.
There are 8 advanced Radars fitted to T23 which would be moved to the T26, so it’s quite possible the program will end after 8 T26’s ordered, rather than the full 13.
A private view of mine is that the RN might just go for 2 or 3 more OPV of the River class, to make up numbers at a third of the cost. Suitable for most duties as they can carry a Merlin capable of ASW.
Do you ever get the feeling that Dugdale is really shit at musical chairs?
no matter how many chairs are left she still manages to trip over her own feet and let the old guy with the zimmer frame get to last remaining chair before her.
Have faith, dear Unionists. Your BBC will fix this for you. They will either lie through their teeth or, my favourite, they’ll specifically only give you one side of the story, supported by a cabal of ‘allegedly’ dispassionate ‘journalists’.
If the future of Scottish bairns were a game then by jove they’re winning. It’s not. I long for the day when these arseholes finally wake up & see that the game they’re playing was lost a long time ago. It’s time they walked off the field.
Slab reminds me of something my father said.
He had declared for many years he was an atheist(?),
One day I went to see him and there was something of concern, when I asked him about it he said “I prayed about that!!”
I said I thought you were an atheist?
He then replied, “sometimes you have to hedge your bets”
watch that there Sandy “English Governement” micht jist catch oan. 🙂
So will the 2016 SLab manifesto really state in writing… vote SLab this May and we will decommission the UK Trident nuclear deterrent system?
Its all about spin really and voters are pretty stupid, like me. Dudes in their 50’s routinely wipe themselves out on huge motor bikes just after they pass their tests, ever listened to an anti MMR vaccination parents, born again Christians, rock climbers that wont shut up about rock climbing, Rangers fans raging at not being allowed to beat up people in the street after the match, people that actually watch Scotland 2015 and then moan about how shit it is, royals worshipping, enough people actually voting toryboy knowing they’re beyond hideous, etc
So nobody rises to 2.25 million MP years. How about 45,000 MP lifetime jobs?
75 House of Commons for 50 years?
MP jobs to rarified? the average nurse gets £23038 pa so using the same 50 year working life that will be the norm in 50 years time the £167 bn is equivalent to 144,977 full time nurses over their full working lives.
How many jobs do the Unions say we lose if Trident isn’t built? And don’t say ‘and so many in the steel industry’ because it will be dead before they start on the subs
Is this what is known as a monumental flustercuck? ????
Thepnr at 8.19
Cheers
link to google.co.uk
They won’t be there for much longer. 7 months will solve it.
@ Angra Mainyu at 6:41pm
Spot on Angra. Great post outlining exactly what’s going on / going to happen. The Unionists north and south of the border uniting from all sides like a pack of dogs to bring the SNP down: and to hell with Scotland.
Anyone else getting very weary with this? Who cares how paper tiger Labour in Scotland voted on Trident? It’s a bl**dy farce from beginning to end. When they encouraged individuals in Scotland, with their manipulation and lies, to vote NO that put paid to the Scots having ANY SAY on what happens to Trident, if we should be involved in any future wars, illegal or not …. etc, etc.
They lied through their teeth in the run up to the Referendum such as saying that without Trident we’d be thrown out of NATO …. NATO with 25 out of 28 countries Nuclear Weapon free.
Dame Mariot Leslie, the UK’s Permanent Representative to NATO who retired in 2014, said a Trident free Scotland would have no problem being a member of NATO ….. Leslie a Scot who voted YES for Independence …. no mention of that on MSM at the time.
I was also talking to someone with Military connections recently and asked about Scots based at Faslane. This person said that the Scots were (excelled themselves) in the top 10% of best recruits. I asked how many of the personnel (sailors / marines etc) based at Faslane were Scots. This person said of say 3000 personnel 180 max were Scots. Additionally most of the Scots are either serving overseas / being based in Cyprus / being asked to move to Cyprus.
link to en.wikipedia.org
And the hoo-ha relating to loss of jobs in Scotland is another load of old codswallop. 85% of workers head south over the border on a Friday night and Jackie Baillie knows it.
link to heraldscotland.com
link to nuclearinfo.org.
link to youtube.com
Security, maintenance and so on is carried out by Babcock Marine Technology, an ENGLISH Company. Head Offices of marine technology, support services, defence and security, infrastructure and so on are all based in England (London, Bristol, Plymouth, Dorset) with a vast network of ENGLISH branch offices. Fire fighting training is carried out in Paisley, SCOTLAND (wonder how many jobs that generates?).
Submarines such as HMS Astute, the lead ship of her class of nuclear-powered fleet submarines, are made at BAE Systems in Barrow in Furness ENGLAND and accounts for around 5,000 jobs at that one location in ENGLAND alone.
link to youtube.com
Cammell-Laird in Birkenhead ENGLAND is focused on RFA fleet ship maintenance and repair and shipbuilding by supplying future aircraft carrier flight decks.
UK Trident II’s are equipped with UK-produced warheads which get locked onto the nose of the Trident misssile. Each missile has approximately 5 times the power of a Hiroshima bomb. They are designed and manufactured by Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) in Aldermaston and Burghfield, ENGLAND. Not one Scottish ‘Naval’ accent to be heard on this video either.
link to youtube.com
BBC NEWS £1bn contract for UK nuclear submarines to be announced. ‘A £1bn contract for reactors for the next generation of the UK’s nuclear-armed submarines is to be announced. The deal is part of plans to replace the Vanguard fleet, which carries the Trident nuclear deterrent. The work will be carried out at the Rolls-Royce factory at Raynesway, Derby, ENGLAND.’
A £37 million deal has been struck by Westminster with the US Government (US Defence giant General Dynamics) to make 48 launch tubes for four new UK Nuclear submarines. Some of the launch tubes were PREVIOUSLY made by BABCOCK, RENFREW, SCOTLAND.
In other words we are taking all the risks for no reward other than the few crumbs we get thrown our way now and again from Westminster ……. thanks to the liars at Labour Scottish Branch Office.
Oh and I nearly forgot to mention. Maybe any loss of jobs at Faslane could be replaced by oil and gas jobs off the West coast of Scotland and at our future Independent Scottish Military Base, Faslane.
‘Trident impacts on our economy. ”A recent report in the Scotsman (23/12/2013) reveals that the Ministry of Defence is blocking plans to investigate the possibility of oil and gas extraction off the West coast of Scotland, because this could interfere with the operation of Trident submarines.”
All through Referendum SLabour MP and MSPs told us we needed Trident.
There need be no massive job losses at Faslane at all.
Scotland will require a naval base of its own, requiring naval, civilian and other staff.
No doubt we would have at least one ,possibly two hunter killer Astutes still operating, though no Vanguard class which carry the nuclear weapons.
Most activity is not carried on at Faslane just now,with the subs having to go to America to load weaponry etc.
Faslane would provide a fine base,and most changes would be to MOD staff. Ie Crews, Security,police etc.
Scotland would require surface vessels depending on what could be agreed by the MOD in terms of our share of the existing fleet.This could provide orders for the yards.
@Dave McEwan Hill
Cheers right back.
I do think we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Maybe your a baritone and I’m a falsetto 🙂
Hi folks,
Going Off Topic here,
Alan Knight’s crowdfunder for a documentary of
@GAPonsonby ‘s “London Calling- How the BBC stole the referendum”
is sitting just under half funded with ten days to go. I know there are a lot of worthy causes out there, but I’ve met Alan and he will make a thoroughly professional documentary. And it is as we know an area that needs as much exposure as possible.
Maybe The Rev could help get this over the line?
Capella
Re the wave-particle duality of Jackie Baillie, surely this is not a quantum problem but is more likely to be explained by considering the subject as a supermassive entity such as a black hole, into which all information disappears and none of any use can be emitted.
Jackie Bailey?
To cover that particular embarrassment, kez has said that all the money that would have been spent on Trident renewal (167 Billion)will instead be spent in the communities effected by the loss of Trident related jobs!
So that’s five n’ a half times the total Scottish budget, being given to us in one lovely big fat payment!
I bet the English will be just thrilled about this, and I’m also sure that Labours Westminster MP’s will wholeheartedly support Scottish Labour on this point, in spite of any backlash they may get from the right wing media and their own constituents.
We know Jeremy Corbyn likes letters from the voters, I wonder if he would confirm that all this lovely ‘Wonga’ will be winging it’s way up to Scotland if Labour ever get back into power?
Thepnr & DM Hill
FYI
Some 18 months ago there was a video doing the rounds which had been filmed in J Bailie’s area.
As I recall ,Usual Referendum set up JB on stage on RHS and she was spouting the usual crap about 15,000 jobs etc . Eventually a gent stands up with a letter in his hand from an Authority on the base stating there was only 550 actual jobs for locals at the base. JB had no reply.
I apologise , I probably have it bookmarked somewhere , or you may find it on YT.
All this big policy statement does is highlight even more the democratic deficit for Scotlands interests within the Union.
It wouldn’t matter if there were 59 SNP,or 59 Slab MPs voting against Trident renewal.
We’ll get what we are given by the Imperial BritNats of Westminster.End of.
It’s just a matter of time till they vote to leave the pound.
@Tackety Beets
I think everybody in Scotland especially those still voting Labour should read DMcH link. Absolutely conclusive 520 civilian jobs are dependent on Trident.
Jackie is a LIAR.
link to nuclearinfo.org
@Dave McEwan Hill
I wish they’d all get their terminology right “scrapped”, what does that mean? Does it mean:
1). cancelling Successor replacement which means Successor is “scrapped” but Trident reamins on the Clyde until 2028. In which case the jobs at Faslane remaim, mostly until 2028?
or 2). cancelling Trident, which means removing the Trident missile, sending the warheads back to Burghfield, decommissioning the 4 Vanguard boats, and a real loss of jobs in the near future.
It’s 1), which means most of the loss of jobs is sheer hot air as it’s 13 years in the future, by which time some of them would have retired, some would have moved into other areas in a fairly natural progression, and crews mostly would have gone home to bases in England, rather than the onsite accomodation at Faslane – which has its own bars, restaurants, mini-markets and laundries under franchise.
Other jobs such as security, site maintenance, gardening, police, reception, stores, purchasing, admin would remain as it’s unlikely the UK would close it as a naval base, even if just for the twice annual Joint Warrior exercises.
@fireproofjim
And pies.
Tackety beets @ 9.39
I saw that TB,
he totally silenced her as I recall.
@Bob Mack
It’s exceedingly unlikely iScotland would have Astutes which is a pity as they’re very capable, but they’re nuclear powered though conventionally armed.
It’s more likely iScotland would have diesel-electric subs bought off the shelf, but they are expensive, and specialist.
I saw the vote was 70/30 against Trident, can anyone confirm?
@tartanpigsy 9:38pm
One day I’ll grow a brain and post links with relevant comments, until then they come as additional posts ten minutes later…
link to indiegogo.com
The US and UK supported wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with its extension into Pakistan have been financed with public money or public debt.
The human costs are incalculable but the monetary costs are easier to calculate…in the US approx. $4.4.trillion.Under Brown/Blair/Cameron by the end of 2011 British direct spending on its (US) wars of choice amounted to £28-9 billion (Berman 2012). In Libya the fighter planes cost £35-72000/hour and the missiles £790000-1,100000 to fire. The costs of the wounded ,dead and disabled aren’t included in that figure.
link to watson.brown.edu
Berman (2012)The cost of international military operations link to researchbriefings.parliament.uk
What are our preferred economic choices-alleviating poverty, improving our infrastructure, income,food and energy security and closing the inequality gap or elitist projects of (imagined) national splendour and prestige displaying and deploying military might, emolliating a corrupt financial system and shady arms industry?
Trident renewal has no support in Scotland, it cannot be placed here and it is a red line for Indyref2.
Who has suffered most damage this weekend?
Jackie Baillie, Andrew Neil, or Kezia Dugdale?
And why are Ian Smart, Hotdogstall and McTernan so quiet?
Murray is neither for nor against apathy!
I’m beginning to think that Labour has had a cast iron assurance that the Trident Renewal vote won’t be held till after May’s elections -bear in mind it is in all unionist parties interests that Trident goes ahead.
What’s the betting that there will be a plausible reason put forward for delaying it till after the elections when UKLabour can just conveniently ignore SLab’s decision? Or the Commons votes to reject & to return the proposed bill for a major review of costs or somesuch. We also know there are several stages where it can be held up or even blocked by the HoL. (Pretty much like the way they dealt with the Tax Credits Bill)
Holding the vote after May allows SLab to get away with being against for the whole of the run-up to SP16 using it to prove they have changed their stance, are ‘autonomous’ & are a ‘credible alternative’ for government.Aye right!
But they will have bought the time they needed to get through the elections so they can say hand on heart we are against Trident
If SLab lose the SP16 election, how they voted this weekend doesn’t matter. Lose badly & they will be written off by UKLabour & the sorry remnants probably set adrift to fend for themselves allowing UKLabour to stick with their ‘for renewal’ position.
Labour (UK & SLab) are playing games here & the victim is the Scottish electorate being duped into believing that SLab is working in Scots interests now.
The question is ‘Do Scots heads button up the back?’ They are gambling that they can persuade enough voters that they do indeed button up the back. How many will fall for it???
@ Angra Mainyu at 6:41pm
Spot on Angra. Great post outlining exactly what’s going on / going to happen. The Unionists north and south of the border uniting from all sides like a pack of dogs to bring the SNP down: and to hell with Scotland.
Anyone else getting very weary with this? Who cares how paper tiger Labour in Scotland voted on Trident? It’s a bl**dy farce from beginning to end. When they encouraged individuals in Scotland, with their manipulation and lies, to vote NO that put paid to the Scots having ANY SAY on what happens to Trident, if we should be involved in any future wars, illegal or not …. etc, etc.
They lied through their teeth in the run up to the Referendum such as saying that without Trident we’d be thrown out of NATO …. NATO with 25 out of 28 countries Nuclear Weapon free.
Dame Mariot Leslie, the UK’s Permanent Representative to NATO who retired in 2014, said a Trident free Scotland would have no problem being a member of NATO ….. Leslie a Scot who voted YES for Independence …. no mention of that on MSM at the time.
I was also talking to someone with Military connections recently and asked about Scots based at Faslane. This person said that the Scots were (excelled themselves) in the top 10% of best recruits. I asked how many of the personnel (sailors / marines etc) based at Faslane were Scots. This person said of say 3000 personnel 180 max were Scots. Additionally most of the Scots are either serving overseas / being based in Cyprus / being asked to move to Cyprus.
link to en.wikipedia.org
And the hoo-ha relating to loss of jobs in Scotland is another load of old codswallop. 85% of workers head south over the border on a Friday night and Jackie Baillie knows it.
link to heraldscotland.com
link to nuclearinfo.org.
link to youtube.com
Security, maintenance and so on is carried out by Babcock Marine Technology, an ENGLISH Company. Head Offices of marine technology, support services, defence and security, infrastructure and so on are all based in England (London, Bristol, Plymouth, Dorset) with a vast network of ENGLISH branch offices. Fire fighting training is carried out in Paisley, SCOTLAND (wonder how many jobs that generates?).
Submarines such as HMS Astute, the lead ship of her class of nuclear-powered fleet submarines, are made at BAE Systems in Barrow in Furness ENGLAND and accounts for around 5,000 jobs at that one location in ENGLAND alone.
link to youtube.com
Cammell-Laird in Birkenhead ENGLAND is focused on RFA fleet ship maintenance and repair and shipbuilding by supplying future aircraft carrier flight decks.
UK Trident II’s are equipped with UK-produced warheads which get locked onto the nose of the Trident misssile. Each missile has approximately 5 times the power of a Hiroshima bomb. They are designed and manufactured by Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) in Aldermaston and Burghfield, ENGLAND. Not one Scottish ‘Naval’ accent to be heard on this video either.
link to youtube.com
BBC NEWS £1bn contract for UK nuclear submarines to be announced. ‘A £1bn contract for reactors for the next generation of the UK’s nuclear-armed submarines is to be announced. The deal is part of plans to replace the Vanguard fleet, which carries the Trident nuclear deterrent. The work will be carried out at the Rolls-Royce factory at Raynesway, Derby, ENGLAND.’
A £37 million deal has been struck by Westminster with the US Government (US Defence giant General Dynamics) to make 48 launch tubes for four new UK Nuclear submarines. Some of the launch tubes were PREVIOUSLY made by BABCOCK, RENFREW, SCOTLAND.
In other words we are taking all the risks for no reward other than the few crumbs we get thrown our way now and again from Westminster ……. thanks to the liars at Labour Scottish Branch Office.
Oh and I nearly forgot to mention. Maybe any loss of jobs at Faslane could be replaced by oil and gas jobs off the West coast of Scotland and at our future Independent Scottish Military Base, Faslane.
‘Trident impacts on our economy. ”A recent report in the Scotsman (23/12/2013) reveals that the Ministry of Defence is blocking plans to investigate the possibility of oil and gas extraction off the West coast of Scotland, because this could interfere with the operation of Trident submarines.”
IS, DK and JM not exactly quiet Ian.
I think we should take a step back and have a look at what Scottish Labour are trying to do here.
They think, that we think this is a serious proposal.
They think they have conned us, they think we have fell for this charade.
All of this has one purpose, to win a few more votes next May. Nothing more, nothing less.
Think about what they have done over the weekend. They have created three eye catching headlines for Monday’s Daily Record and BBC Scotland news headlines.
Scottish Labour is an Independent thinking Party.
Scottish Labour is against Trident renewal.
Scottish Labour will pay for any losses caused by tax credit cuts.
They actually think we are as simple as they look.
Let them know that we are in on their wee sectret.
So nobody can relate to 144977 nursing jobs for the next 50 years? How about there are in total 58408 nursing jobs, including midwives, in the Scottish NHS? (Who we already pay for)
Just how many jobs do the unions say will be lost and how important are they compared to the jobs nurses do?
If you are in a Union, ask, and keep asking ’til you get a detailed answer, who, where and when.
Posted earlier but it’s not appeared! Anyway any loss of jobs would be more than made for at our new (Independent Scottish) Military Base, Faslane.
And oil and gas jobs:
‘Trident impacts on our economy. ”A recent report in the Scotsman (23/12/2013) reveals that the Ministry of Defence is blocking plans to investigate the possibility of oil and gas extraction off the West coast of Scotland, because this could interfere with the operation of Trident submarines.”
@Ian Brotherhood
McTernan hasn’t been quiet, have a look at his twitter time line especially after today’s Trident vote.
I considered writing about Labour’s confused and confusing struggle for credibility, but I’m still of the opinion, complacency aside, that they’re still unelectable in Scotland, and almost certainly in England next election, no matter what rabbits they pull out of the hat.
There are other pressing issues to consider without wasting time on their pathetic conference, or sentimental journalists giving them the benefit of the doubt.
They keep disparaging Salmon for saying a Referendum is for a generation (political, not human) but their chance of recovery for betraying Scotland will take twenty years.
@lollysmum, 10:07
Completely agree with your comments. SLAB
It is all very funny, of course, but I made a very unpleasant discovery today. Apparently, there is an organisation called the SCOTTISH Defence League, which is opposed to refugees coming to Scotland.
I am not sure where these brutes stand politically — probably UKIP voters, but they use the saltire with a cross on it. It spoilt my whole day to even learn we have such an organisation in Bonnie Scotland, pedalling their minority views.
The irony is that the moment refugees — who are VERY welcome in Scotland — step onto our soil, they are already Scots. You know, the people these knuckle-draggers are claiming to, um, defend…
I am sorry if I have spoilt anyone else’s weekend by sharing this news.
Footage of the SLab faithful singing ‘The Red Flag’ is on WOS Twitter.
‘Toe-curling’ doesn’t even start to cover it. Dire. Mortifying.
Here’s the last verse:
“With heads uncovered swear we all
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.”
Aye, well, fair do’s. Ye’ve sung it. Now, ‘part’, the lot of ye’s. Total embarrassment to yourselves, your constituents, and the brave men and women who sacrificed so much to make the Labour Party a reality.
Hothersall, Smart, McTernan, McDougall et al? Don’t even bother giving the people of Scotland any more ay yer pish, eh? Just STFU and hang yer heids in burning shame, ya shower.
@lollysmum
Continued, hit submit by accident 😳
SLAB are living on borrowed time, if they come 3rd after the Tories in either vote percentage or seats won then it is strong possibility that UK Labour will cut adrift. That would mean the end of SLAB, as they are dire financial straits.
@Bob Mack says: 1 November, 2015 at 9:37 pm:
” … There need be no massive job losses at Faslane at all. Scotland will require a naval base of its own, requiring naval, civilian and other staff.”
You have it correct, Bob. The same yard workers that berth a submarine will berth a destroyer or Frigate. The same workers that store a frigate or destroyer will store a submarine. The same crew to pump out the bilges of a Fleet Auxiliary tanker will pump the bilges of a tugboat.
The crane that loads the stores onto a frigate can load a destroyer or inshore minesweeper’s stores. The crew that sweeps the dockside by the destroyer will sweep the docksides all over the base. The canteen staff cook and serve everyone. The pay office pays everyone. Et al.
The same guy that services the radar on the destroyer can do the radios and sonar too and do so on any craft. I worked 50 years for the Admiralty at Rosyth and worked on everything from motor torpedo boats to nuclear submarines. But I did specialist in nuclear radiation detecting equipment, navigation gear and mine hunting sonar in my later employment.
Interesting that Labout (sub unit) gave the result of the vote as a percentage. They appear terrified to give any clue on actual attendance in the hall.
For example 280 for and 120 against doesn’t quite sound as dramatic!
@Brian Powell says:
I saw the vote was 70/30 against Trident, can anyone confirm?
Not a very high priority!
link to twitter.com
This is all for show and planned for weeks
Look at us we have different policy from english labour
This line will be sprouted out for months trying to prove that they are a seperate party
Ian Brotherhood “Footage of the SLab faithful singing ‘The Red Flag’”
It is ‘not about flags’, remember?
OT – Great posting on I McW’s article in the SH:
Steven McQueen 11:12am Sun 1 Nov 15
For those failing to understand Kezia’s economics here, it’s very simple:
You have £10.
You decide not to spend £3 on a coffee.
You now have £13
I wish I could write in 4 short sentences what takes me a couple of paragraphs. But here goes in imitation / flattery, of Dugdalonomics:
I’ve decided not to buy Michelle Mone’s house for £1 million.
I now have £1 million in the bank.
Yippeeee, I can retire.
Here is what we would probably have at Faslane if we were independent – 70 armed vessels, including 5 heavy frigates, 6 submarines, 14 patrol boats, 4 minesweepers, 4 minehunters, 1 mine detection vessel, 4 support vessels and 2 training vessels. The navy would also include the Coast Guard.
That BTW is the Norwegian navy
The British Antarctic vessels were built by Norway
Kenny says:
1 November, 2015 at 10:25 pm
Kenny we had some trouble with them at the Independence March & Rallies in Edinburgh. A very unpleasant bunch but more BNP than UKIP.
Full credit to Edinburgh police in quickly dealing with them and for a lot of work behind the scene to limit any impact of their “protest”
Well, yeah, okay, I suppose I should really ‘follow’ all these people to find out what they’re saying…then again.
Just noticed this one, RT’d via WOS. It seems to be by McTernan:
‘I am brave to stand up for sanity in Corbyn’s Labour Party. But no matter how lonely, I won’t flinch from the fight.’
That’s fighting talk!
Scottish Labour have as much power as the Wheel Tappers and Shunters Club!
They are a branch operation.
Today’s vote was choreographed by Kez, Jez and BBC Scotland.
One word.
Omnishambles.
@ fireproofjim
Re JB conundrum. Interesting. I thought density might be a factor somehow.
If SLab had any decency, honesty or self-awareness, they’d have replaced ‘The Red Flag’ with this:
link to youtube.com
@Tackety Beets says: 1 November, 2015 at 9:39 pm:
… ” … Eventually a gent stands up with a letter in his hand from an Authority on the base stating there was only 550 actual jobs for locals at the base.”
Actually, Tackety Beets, that letter was an answer to a CND Scotland FOI for information from the MOD.
You can read a reference to it here : –
link to nuclearinfo.org
@Dave McEwan Hill
Fair play to you. The Fridtjof Nansen was command ship for the CTF-508 anti-piracy part of SNMG1 for 6 months in 2013, which shows the capability. 5 of them is probably about right.
I used to base my split on the RN, on the basis of a split of assets and debts, which would have had perhaps 3 even 4 T23s / T26s, taking into account values of T45, Astute, Vanguard, the QEs and Bulwark. There’s a fair chance that wouldn’t happen, so it’s good to speculate on a new or off-the-shelf equivalent.
Ach, wee McTernan, so lonely…
link to youtube.com
Ach, poor J McT, so ronery, sorry, lonely…
Don’t often come across lyrics so apt –
link to youtube.com
@Ian Brotherhood
Ah but did it contain blue flush?
Ref posts above on Twitter
I set mine up to follow WOS as Rev’s Tweets were often being discussed here.
I started following all those SLABers MCternan etc , had to unfollow after a few days as they tweet so much crap. At my age a hiv t watch ma blood pressure .
That’s where our health is better thanks to our contributions to WOS and our saviour Rev Campbell.
He re-tweets the interesting ones.
It’s good entertainment to when a wee conversation gets going.
As my forebears would say “He’s fit for thim “
OT
It suddenly occurs to me that kevverage is actually arguing the SNP line on debt, in his factually incorrect attempts to show that Scotland’s defict was always higher than the UK bar one or two years. I.e., he’s taking 32 years historically, same as the SNP proposed to do for share of debt. He should be encouraged, he’s not the only Unionist doing the same now. Instead of a debt share of around £130 billion, it would make it more like £70 billion, not properly taking into account serviced interest on the population share either, but a full share of assets. Keep going, kevverage …
… £50 billion would give Scotland around a 40% or less, debt to GDP ratio. Nice.
Sorry about the doubler there. It’s worth a repeat anyway.
This clip from the same movie may well sum-up the feelings of decent Labour supporters right now:
Gary Vomiting, from ‘Team America’ –
link to youtube.com
I am going to have to flutter my eyelids atyesindyref2 he is on fire tonight!
Real Benny Hill stuff!
Absolutely correct!
When Trident is removed from Scotland, that yard will be busy
maintaining the Scottish Fleet so no jobs will be lost.
Bull Shit Baillie will have seen greater job losses within the Labour Party than there will ever be in that yard!
Just hope she leads them down to the DWP have their welfare benefits cut. You know the cuts that Labour voted for.
@Paula Rose
😯 🙂
Thanks Robert , I appreciate your capacity for information and accuracy.
My post used the phrase “As I recall” and my main point was to verify Dave MH jobs figure of circa 550 and of course JB yet again caught out and unable to justify her 15k jobs figure.
Your assertion is probably correct , my recollection was the letter came maybe Babcocks ? Or similar type contractor who provides employment @ base. It matters not now.
I wish I had my grey cells working as good as yours.
Thanks for the link , I’m off to read it . Smiley fing.
Cheers
@capella
Re JB. Yes. Infinite density would cover it. Both physically and metaphorically!
@Effijy
Yes, and the other thing about Faslane is that in the event of iScotland, there’d be a lot of revamping of the facilities to change its use from sub base and RN base, and to suit the SDF, so there’s be a lot of construction work there. That’s on top of the £500 million the MOD is very nicely currently spending on Faslane to get it ready for Astute.
RN is currently spending “Around £100m investment in the base and harbour is required to prepare the base for her arrival” at Portsmouth for the QE.
So jobs lost ~= jobs kept + jobs gained. Most monies spent going back into the Scottish economy.
If trident renewal is £167billion how many schools would that build? Or a new Southern General size hospital? How many defence soldiers, sailors or airman?
1 Jackie Baillie?
It’s all down to choices
Like the Evel issue the Labour in Scotland vote on Trident is just another small step towards independence.
The Labour Party in England cannot oppose Trident because to do so would mean that their chances of winning another election, already slim, disappear completely.
The Labour Party in Scotland will be exposed as powerless on the issue in the face of UK Labour imperatives.
Bit by bit, in a process that has been going on since Ravenscraig and Gartcosh were closed, the Scottish people are understanding that Scotland gets what England wants.
Forty years ago there was little difference in popular ambition in Scotland and England. The divide now is substantial and increasing all the time
So much for Scottish Labour teeling us that we’re ‘Better Together’.
When did they change thier minds?
Fair question and it deserves a fair answer.
If McTernan is the man tasked with making a silk purse out of the pig’s ear we’ve just seen in Perth, it’s worth recalling just how ‘effective’ he is when exposed to the most basic scrutiny.
This is the full interview on CH4 (July, 2014) containing the ‘break legs’ quip.
Yeah, he’s comical, but it’s worth listening to this – the man is a sociopath.
link to youtube.com
@Ian Brotherhood
McTernan is a parasite, that is how he has made his corn until now. He is the fudge and just a teeny part of the stinking pile.
I’m one of the cancer blips, causing a statistical anomaly. By moving to Argyll and two years later being diagnosed with incurable leukaemia.(non fatal, just cannot walk)
I sleep 4 miles from the base and walk my dogs 1 mile from the base.
I am only a blip, because quite a few folk approaching their sell by dates come to this area cos it is nice.
Most of the time, I accept the statistics but every now and then when I visit Inverclyde Hospital and natter to other miserable gits, I wonder.
If I err on the side of common sense, I’d love the base to vanish and be replaced by Scotland’s first Nuclear Power Station.
Did a Google and the area seems not to suffer from earthquakes, tsunami, only politicians. And really shitty weather. Wind-farms in our country are a bit silly as they don’t work during blocking highs (the period when we experience 3 months of negative temperatures and no wind). Hydro works (in my garden around half the year) but we need reliable energy.
I’d be pretty happy looking at a nuclear power station rather than that frigging Dr No base.
Laughing, Leukaemia means I cannot walk at normal speeds. I manage a mile per hour but actually use an electric bike to walk the dogs,..
I wish I could laugh. I envy you guys. But these people just ran a referendum scaremongering about how losing Trident would result in “horrendous” job losses that would be a “massive blow” to Scotland… and now they’re voting to do just that.
Everyone who voted No explicitly because voting No would protect Trident, and then voted for the Red Rosette in the General Election because they didn’t explicitly call to scrap Trident – well, there’s your lot. You voted No, then voted Red Rosette, and the party which cried the most about losing jobs from scrapping Trident has just voted to scrap Trident.
It would be hilarious… but it’s after the referendum. The creatures waited until after the one vote where we could actually have done something about Trident to suddenly decide they agreed with the SNP all along. It would be like the Athenians deciding to march to Thermopylae to aid the Spartans long after the buzzards picked the last bones clean.
Let’s hope our Platea is not too far away.
@Taranaich
Good point to remind us what JB and Westminster were spouting during the referendum.
PS:
TV licencing people being assaulted…no need for that surely!
link to archive.is
Nearly 3 yrs for me (but don’t watch any TV at all now) still getting a billet-doux now and again from Falkirk. 🙂
@Taranaich 2.14am
Couldn’t agree more.
Labour group in Scotland’s position is utterly indefensible. Its not simply that their vote is a year late and a yard short, it is also completely dishonest. Its all very well to vote for a thing when you are aware you won’t have to and indeed have no power to deliver on its delivery
@Taranaich 2.14am
Weird. Screen blinked and posted before I’d finished composing.
Anyroads.
Couldn’t agree more.
Labour group in Scotland’s position is utterly indefensible. Its not simply that their vote is a year late and a yard short, it is also completely dishonest. Its all very well to vote for a thing when you are aware you won’t have to and indeed have no power to deliver on the issue. It reeks of gesture politics.
If Labour in Scotland are serious on this issue, and they are as aware of Westminster’s intent and nature as we are, then there is only one action they can take which would convince the electorate of their credentials for future government in Scotland. To use a popular terminology, its time for Labour in Scotland to shit or get off the pot.
The ONLY way to ensure these weapons are removed from Scotland is for Scotland’s parliament to have the power to remove them. Labour need to back independence no ifs, buts or mibbies.
Are Labour in Scotland willing to serve the people rather than direct the people? Is this merely gesture politics with an impending Holyrood election, or are they in any way serious about becoming a truly independent Scottish Labour? A Labour party capable of creating and acting on policies which can only be delivered by a fully empowered Scottish government.
I have my doubts, but we’ll know soon enough.
O/T Sorry actually very O/T
Stuart et al
Have you read Mark Franklands book the Great Foodbank Siege? If not get yourself a copy for £3 ebook from this link:
link to marksimonfrankland.blogspot.co.uk
I couldn’t sleep last night then remembered I bought this weeks ago when we were doing the fundraiser for the woman caught shoplifting so I thought I’d make a start on it.
If you ignore the occasional typos it’s actually a cracking good read. Once I started, I couldn’t put it down so read it through the night.
It’s hilarious in places & features 2 ex-squaddies, Nicola Sturgeon going head to head with Cameron & COBRA with a cast of 21 members of the Black Watch & 8,000 Yessers.
I can’t remember when I last laughed so much & would thoroughly recommend it to every scot. Guaranteed to diminish any trace of the cringe at a rate of knots.
Mark writes the book as himself-the author/Manager of the Foodbank and it deserves to be widely read. You’d also be helping the foodbank by buying it too as sales supplement foodbank funds.
If she hasn’t read it then I also recommend that Nicola Sturgeon gets herself a copy too-she would love it. He captures her brilliantly 😉
I bought 5 others at the same time so guess it won’t be weeks before I get to them.If they are half as good as this one is then I’ll be more than happy.
Buy a copy-you won’t regret it 🙂
Scott Borthwick at 4:05pm yesterday
‘Are we absolutely sure we don’t just have some nicely painted metal tubes?’
I started off chuckling, then a cold shiver ran down my spine!!!
The Trident vote was a con.
It is designed to fall in behind the way a lot a voters who moved to the SNP think, to get them back on board by next May.
When Glen Campbell of BBC Scotland is the chief reporter on this debate, then you smell a rat.
BBC Scotland and Scottish Labour, still playing games with the hard of thinking voter.
O/T
BBC Scotland reporting an increase in TV Licencing officials being assaulted.
I don’t condone the abuse of these people, but…(hahahaha)
‘The Trident vote was a con.’
It does smack a bit of ‘Scottish’ Labour taking Labour voters in Scotland as being a bit gullible and thick.
Only independence will rid us of Trident, and even then it will take a while.
SNP/SNP!
If Trident approval had been openly discussed at the proper Labour Conference, instead of being sneaked through, I suspect the delegates might have rejected renewal.
There is probably a UK split between Lab politicians and their grassroots.
Fair enough. A (further) divided party is a weak party.
However,bas others have expressed, this all give the North British branch an excuse to lie in the May elections. Yes, there is only one Labour Party and if the locals try to deceive we need to call them out on this big issue.
This decision by Scottish Labour to vote against renewal of Trident really helps the YES campaign.
It doesn’t do much for Labour as it just makes them look like idiots!
I would love journalists to ask them the same questions the YES side were asked vis a vis Trident during the Indy Ref.
ie Jobs & Nato.
‘The Better Together campaign said expelling the UK’s nuclear deterrent would be seen as a “block” to Scotland’s membership of Nato.
But speaking on behalf of the Better Together campaign, former Nato secretary-general George Robertson said: “Ms Leslie is entitled to her opinion but even she will see how difficult it would be to get 28 countries to agree to admitting a country determined to disarm another Nato state.
“The SNP is not just non-nuclear, it is anti-nuclear and no other Nato country takes that position. Expelling the UK deterrent – especially when President Putin is reminding the world about his – would be seen as a serious block to Scottish membership.” BBC
O/T links
link to energyvoice.com
link to tes.com
poorer-teenagers-university-improving
link to oilandgaspeople.com
-complete/
O/T links
link to rt.com
link to counterpunch.org
link to thelocal.fr
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
Gary Robertson and Radio Scotland serving the Union well in pressing John Swinney. For the first time in months I was very impressed by Swinney’s staunch and unflinching stance. They were discussing the realisation of the Vow / Smith commission and proposed further powers.
I actually don’t know what Scottish Labour’s position is in regards to the proposed further powers but, based on my understanding of their triangulation strategy, I think I can guess.
Scottish Labour is now effectively the attack dog of the British State rather than the attack dog of the UK Labour Party. The latter has basically thrown in the towel up here. And, so, I expect/predict SLAB will argue that the new powers realise the Vow and argue that the SNP are deliberately trying to scupper the process because all they (we) want is full independence.
Any clause that hints at Westminster retaining veto power will need to be printed and when it does we need to help by plastering it everywhere. If the SNP veto the new powers on the basis that Westminster retains ultimate control, we need to be ready to play a part.
“West Midlands ambulance service say the man driving the car died at the scene and the girl could have been there ‘for some time’”
We can expect howls of anger about English police response and procedures being lethally tardy.
When is the BBC’s Brian Taylor from Tannadice going to spontaneously explode?
I’ve been expecting a “breaking news” bulletin mentioning that a hazchem team spent most of the afternoon cleaning up the A90 after the inevitable happened but still nothing.
What’s taking him so long?
Thank you nana for the information. Just had a look at the one about UK government funded seismic-shoot in the North Sea basin.
Since the Westmonster propaganda unit is trying to “inform” uneducated natives that the Rockall trough is in the North Sea basin then it’s no wonder that the oil taxes that the Establishment steals from Scotland are deemed to have come from extra terrestrial something or other.
They just make all this shit up as they stumble along and throw us a stale crust now and again. The no voting numpties are either in on this con trick or they are mentally challenged.
Once upon a time. That’s how they treat the daft natives.
Yes we must ask them at every opportunity what they are going to do when the English parliament overwhelmingly votes to renew Trident and place it in Scotland.
Plus the SNP should now use this to say if Trident is renewed and placed in Scotland when Scotland has rejected this then there will be no union anymore and threaten to tear up the treaty of union and declare our independence.
Well the line in the sand has been drawn so Labour voters in Scotland now you have voted for more autonomy,against the renewal of Trident dont you think the next logical step is to back independence or are you all full of pish.
O/T
link to commonspace.scot
Oh good grief…
link to archive.is
and
Spotted on twitter.
Make sure you are on the voters roll
600k+ peeps have mysteriously disappeared off it in Scotland since 19 Sept 2014
How many votes did the No side win by?
Will Jackie Baillie stand down now that her party conference has rejected her very public position of support for Trident.
At odds with over 70% of delegates at conference her position is untenable and she should do the decent thing and stand down.
Or will she just struggle on piteously wounded until the May election when she will be put out of her misery when she loses her seat. Then she can join Jim Murphy in the dole queue.
Lollysmum, read the Foodbank Siege a few weeks ago, loved it and like you heartily commend it to everyone. Please read this, enjoy, buy it for Christmas for people and do some good all ways.
Again, this damn North Sea problem!!
link to energy-pedia.com
@osakisushi says: 2 November, 2015 at 1:47 am:
” … Wind-farms in our country are a bit silly as they don’t work during blocking highs (the period when we experience 3 months of negative temperatures and no wind). Hydro works (in my garden around half the year) but we need reliable energy.”
Ach! Not that old cobblers again. There is no effective electricity generating system that does not require several ways to produce the end product. There are sound engineering reasons for this stone cold fact. The main one being that the load on the grid needs to be balanced to the load imposed upon it by the users demands.
All generating systems have pros and cons. no one system is ideal. For example there is no way to take a nuclear power station off line quickly nor indeed to bring it back on-line quickly. It cannot be used to balance the load.
So coal and nuclear are good basic generators but cannot be used to balance the load and nuclear is the most dirty polluting system the World has ever known. It is a myth that it is a clean energy. It is only clean at the point of use but what of all the energy used to mine, extract the fuel from the ore and to process it for final use. Then what of the radioactive waste?
The same goes for coal, oil and gas. They all not only need a constant supply of fuel to be brought to the site but they also need to dispose of the waste matter. So all generating systems need a variety of sources to allow for some parts of the system to be used for quick start and stop usage.
Now for specifics. All renewables have one thing in common. You do not need to constantly buy and bring the fuel to them that drives them – the fuel not only brings itself but it leaves behind no waste to be disposed, or stored for thousands of years.
So wind turbines are just one part of the overall system. BTW: over the past year wind power not only provided all Scotland’s needs but had some left over to export. Here is just one use of a mixed system. Wind goes on 24/7 and the widespread application means that even in exceptionally calm days, (which incidentally often coincide with lower demand due to weather conditions), there is usually somewhere the wind still blows.
The wind system in particular can be used to reverse the flow of water uphill in pumped storage hydro systems to store kinetic energy for use when the wind generated energy is low. Then we have the Hydrogen system. They use the spare wind generation to split sea water into hydrogen and oxygen and use the hydrogen as a fuel when the wind drops.
Here is the bottom line. Scotland, last year, exported over 26% of her total generated power to England and Northern Ireland. For which generosity the Establishment charged the northern Generators a hefty sum for every kilowatt of energy they added to the national grid while subsidising every kilowatt of energy generated in the south of Britain.
can someone explain the “– if the Electoral Commission allows it to…” comment or link me to the story ??
“can someone explain the “– if the Electoral Commission allows it to…” comment or link me to the story ??”
Um, you know that that line is already a link, right?
If Scotland has to pay to reverse cuts made by the UK Gov why are we ‘Better Together’ Kezia?
I’m not totally convinced that we should be paying ‘tax credits’ it all sounds a bit too much like ‘state sponsored super profits’
I would have a few questions to ask Kezia re ‘tax credits’ I haven’t researched the pros & cons of ‘tax credits’ but it does seem strange to me that people in work require ‘social security’ payments or ‘tax credits’ as they are called.
I would also like to ask her what she would do about perfectly legal tax credit scams
‘ Wherever there is a universal entitlement available there will be ways of gaming the system. One particularly ingenious (and perfectly legal) way to become eligible for tax credits is to be self-employed but earn no profit on your business. By being a registered self-employed person who earns little or nothing, you are entitled to have your income supplemented by government both in the form of the Working Tax Credit and, if you have a family, Child Tax Credits. What, you may wonder, could be the point of continuing in such self-employment when it is earning nothing? Exactly this: were you to be unemployed, the new benefit rules would see to it that you were continually pressured into seeking work.
The local Job Centre would be calling you in for regular appointments, wanting to send you on interviews or training schemes and demanding to know how much effort you were making to find a job. But if you are unprofitably self-employed, nobody pesters you at all. In effect, your entire income is coming from the state without any of the hassle of being officially unemployed.’ The Telegraph
McTernan on GMS a bit earlier and really put the boot into ‘Scottish…labour’ over trident ridiculing their stance and basically what we all know. Trident will be built by 2020.
He also trashed their tax credit idea and generally left behind a vision of ‘Scottish labour incompetence’ before leaving the studio.
I hope all the undecided voters and labour switherers were listening. The branch manager is on a temporary contract vacancy pending.
Labour in Scotland can vote at its Scottish conference in support of a motion against the renewal of Trident all it likes.
This is simply nothing more than political posturing because as long as we remain part of the UK its Westminster that will decide on whether Trident is renewed
Its the same in regard to Dugdale’s promise to restore tax credits here in Scotland, how is she going to do that when most of the welfare powers are reseved to the new universal benefit comes in?
‘It is Scottish Labour who stands up for Scotland’ — Alex Rowley
Reading some more of the comments. This does put ‘Scottish’ Labour on the line when WM overwhelmingly passes Trident renewal.
If the one Labour MP keeps his promise to his constituents and sides with the SNP then Scotland’s parties of government AND opposition have united. Both grassroots and politian(s) have said no.
What next? If Trident blows up (what an awful pun) into a big issue for the public too, that is sounding like an indyref2 trigger to me.
Pathetic Scotland Bill, austerity biting, attacks on poor … add unity against Trident … majority against continuing the Union. ScotExit.
Labour are in a spin alright, The general feeling amoung people who joined the Labour party in England in their droves hoping for something different with Corbyn haven’t gotten anything like what they hoped for which ultimately will lose them yet another election south of the border due to the lack of real leadership and further drives the wedge between Scotland and the Rest of the UK. Meantime they have so many internal fights the party itself might need to split to save it’s own ends!!!
For a Monday … this is turning out to be such a lovely day!
Graham Harris Graham
Missed that, what happened on the A90?
O/T
Was I alone in being disgusted by last friday’s HIGNFY.
It has long been an obligatory part of the show’s format to contain at least one anti SNP or anti Scottish wisecrack. – after all what is the BBC for?
The show’s intro usually contains a series of what are supposed to be funny anecdotes related to events of the past week.
Last week’s intro anecdotes contained the following which I paraphrase – ‘Liberal MPs who occupy offices directly below some of our 56 SNP MPs have complained of urine seeping through the floor from above’.
Can anybody see anything remotely humorous about that statement?
I would like to know what thought process went through the head of whoever was reponsible for insering it in the program and the motive for doing so.
Meanwhile our beloved MSM are going crazy about the apparent disastrous gaffe made by Angela Constance on yesterday’s Sunday Politics. If any comments should be made about that interview it should be to compare and contrast the disgraceful and rude performance by Brewer with the armchair ride that he gave to the MP for the Peoples Republic of Red Morningside.
Ruby, I think you should make it clear at the top that your position rests on Telegraph sources rather than the bottom.
If you’ve researched the subject you will know what percentage of the workforce is registered self employed. On that basis, I’d expect you to also know what a piffling issue this is.
Tax credits are being used to subsidise the costs of production for businesses, particularly big business who pay the minimum amount they can. But so are a multitude of other benefits and they always have.
Apply the logic of the argument to poor those who rely on food banks, though, and you soon get into a pickle. You could argue quite easily that we shouldn’t contribute to food banks on the same basis, that we are subsidising companies who pay low wages. A good proportion of people who use food banks are in employment.
if someone is hungry, give them food. That’s a simple principle. The deserving poor argument was resolved in the 19th century, so let’s move on. And if so many people are diddling the system by declaring themselves self employed, or disabled, or whatever, that says more about the system than the individual decisions involved.
I thought we were all here in recognition that the current system as a whole was more or less broken. If that’s the case, we should concentrate our energy on changing it rather than changing those who fall victim to it.
link to theguardian.com
Heavy Fog In Channel. Continent Cut Off.
Another day of The Vow Delivered by our chums in the south and thats it. Libby Carrell has the biggest doss in UKOK hackdom, unless UKOK “nothing” does never happen in his Scotland region. To be fair, it really is a glorious autumn day up here in his non existent Scotlandshire region.
Not even neo fascist Voice of The North P&J, can spoil today, but they gave it their best shot though.
What we witnessed from Labour at its Scottish conference in voting in support of a motion in opposing the renewal of Trident.
Is nothing more than gesture politics, for it changes nothing.
That’s because as long as we remain part of the UK it is Westminster that will decide whether or not Trident is renewed, not Labour here in Scotland.
I might be wrong but I don’t see the UK Labour Party going into a general election promising to scrap Trident.
We also had Labour’s deputy Leader in Scotland Alex Rowley
claiming that ‘It is Scottish Labour who stands up for Scotland’.
When did Labour stand up for Scotland, I must have missed when that happened because I don’t remember Labour ever standing up for Scotland.
@caz-m says: 2 November, 2015 at 7:27 am:
O/T
” … BBC Scotland reporting an increase in TV Licencing officials being assaulted.”
Here’s a thought, Caz-m.
The laws of Scotland differ from those of the rest of the United Kingdom as Scots are in law sovereign and thus actually own Scotland while the rest of the UK belongs only legally to their sovereign monarchy. (delegated to Her Majesty’s Parliament).
Thus in the rest of the UK the owner of private land can legally tow away, or clamp, any vehicle parked upon their private land. They can also legally prevent others access under the English trespass laws.
In Scotland anyone attempting to prevent access to any part of Scotland, (with a very few exceptions), is breaking the law. One exception is the right to privacy in close proximity to the owner’s abode. Another is MOD or railway property.
Other than that Scots have freedom to roam providing they do no harm to the property. In fact it is against the law of Scotland for a private person to clamp or otherwise demand money with menace. Note the term menace. This term implies any form of threat.
Now consider another facet of Scots law – the right to personal privacy around your own abode – A sort of Peeping Tom Act.
In this respect there are circumstances when access can be demanded to that personal area around your home. Such as services of supply such as water, gas, electricity, telephone lines and drainage. It is also accepted that people have legal right to enter your property but are restricted to making their way directly to your front door to either post something or contact you at your front door. However you have legal right to refuse this tight to other than the mentioned essential services.
So here’s the deal – you can legally inform the BBC that neither they or their agents have the right to even go to your front door to contact you. Having informed them they are breaking the law if they then enter your property.
All this brings up a legal question. If it is a criminal offence for any private person to clamp or tow away a vehicle and demand payment then is it not also a criminal offence to demand payment under threat of court action for watching television without proof positive that you have done so? If you have informed the BBC you have withdrawn their right of access to your property they have no right to assume you have watched TV.
Are not threats of either court action or debt collectors menaces? There is also the fact that the constant harassment after you have informed them you do not require a licence amount to threatening behaviour? Perhaps it is illegal stalking?
It seems, no matter if you tell them you do not watch TV, they are going to continue to harass you with threats that you will be both investigated and taken to court. I don’t know about anyone else but I certainly feel threatened by them.
What with John McTernan doing our job for us in rubbishing his own Labour party and The Daily Mail’s Chris Deerin predicting the end of the world is nigh for the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon for the millionth time
We’re not going to have any Politicians left
How does the ridiculous Jackie Baillie spin her way out of saying Trident is to go but we’ve got to keep the 20 million jobs at Faslane or the 3 foodbanks in Helensburgh wont be able to cope
@ Robert
very true Robert and dont forget the osmosis technology where by just using fresh and salt water you can create an electrical charge currently being developed by our Scandinavian friends and looks pretty impressive,im sure they would just love us to get involved and lend some of that Scottish ingenuity to the project.
These are the kind of things we could pursue if only we were not shackled to a nation that is determined to use nuclear against the majority of the peoples wishes,we have all seen Chernobyl and the damage,now Fukushima,trying to sell us this line is an act of dictatorship because it would seem what we want doesnt matter to these people,time we changed that.
Dr Jim: How does the ridiculous Jackie Baillie spin her way out
I think she rolls with the dice rather than spins with veracity.
@Capella
“Is Jackie Baillie a wave or a particle?
We ought to be told.”
Neither, both of those have momentum. She is an entirely new phenomena consisting entirely of spin.
Chic McGregor at 10.52
or spam
Angra Mainyu says:
2 November, 2015 at 10:18 am
Ruby, I think you should make it clear at the top that your position rests on Telegraph sources rather than the bottom.
If you’ve researched the subject
Ruby Replies
But I haven’t researched the subject in depth. I’m posing questions for Kezia to answer.
As for it being a ‘piffling issue’ I do believe ‘piffling issues’are Kezia’s speciality.
There is an argument against donating to foodbanks.
Donating to foodbanks lets the government off the hook.
Same applies to reversing tax credit cuts & bedroom tax.
As for reliable sources of information where do you suggest I look?
I’m pretty confused about the whole tax credits/foodbanks/bedroom tax/trident/nato/ Better Together issues and I haven’t really got the time to research all these topics.
If as suggested by Kezia Dugdale I were a robot that would be a whole different matter. Data could be fed in faster than the speed of light although I suspect in the end I might be saying in my robot voice does not compute
Angra Mainyu says:
2 November, 2015 at 10:18 am
Tax credits are being used to subsidise the costs of production for businesses, particularly big business who pay the minimum amount they can. But so are a multitude of other benefits and they always have.
Ruby replies
I think I got that quite a long time ago when I watched the following:
Warning: The source of this information is the BBC
link to tinyurl.com
‘The living wage would be a huge benefit mainly to the taxpayer at the present period of time. If you move people from the minimum wage to the living wage the taxpayer would probably benefit by £50 per week per worker. So for supermarkets employing 100K workers who are getting tax credits which is quite plausible if each one of them got £50 per week from their employer rather than the taxpayer you are talking £100millions every year so the taxpayer would be benefitting there the treasury would be benefitting’
Professor Jane Will, Queen Mary, University of London
When you do your supermarket shopping at the likes of Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and Sainsbury’s you are not only paying for your goods, your taxes are subsidising their huge profits and the remuneration packages for their CEOs.
Newsnight’s Economics editor Paul Mason reports on the way workers’ wages are being supplemented by state benefits.
Broadcast on Thursday 9 February 2012.
Warning: This information is from The Guardian
link to tinyurl.com
The first time I heard the phrase “state-subsidised corporate super-profits” was last June, at a conference of the pressure group Compass, in a discussion about meeting child poverty targets by 2020 (the title was intended as a bleak joke, I think). Someone in the audience said that the very existence of “in-work benefits” was evidence of the government subsidising the bloated profits of huge corporations.
The big confusion for me is why is Kezia so keen to continue with this “state-subsidised corporate super-profits”
Will Kezia campaign for an increase in the minimum wage?
Okay Ruby, so it seems I misunderstood the thrust of your point. Apologies.
As for where to research, I always think the conscience is the best place to start.
From the Financial Times
The voluntary London “living wage” has risen 25p to £9.40 an hour, well above the new minimum pay rate set by the government.
George Osborne, the chancellor, announced his own “national living wage” this year for people aged 25 and over. It will be set at £7.20 an hour next April and rise to about £9 by 2020.
While these rates are much lower than the voluntary scheme, they will have a far more dramatic effect on the labour market because they will affect all employers and be enforceable by law’
Another couple of questions for Kezia:
What is a ‘living wage’?
Is there anything stopping employers hiring only people under 25?
What measure will Scottish Labour take to prevent this happening?
Angra Mainyu says:
2 November, 2015 at 11:57 am
Okay Ruby, so it seems I misunderstood the thrust of your point. Apologies.
Ruby replies
No worries! You’re forgiven 😀 smile
Misunderstanding the trust of my point is not difficult.
Ruby @9.41
What do you expect from the Torygraph? They are always peddling the falsehood that there are legions of benefit cheats out there.
The real benefit cheats are in the House of Lords, Buck palace, the big corporations etc.
10 times the amount of money and resources are spent on pursuing the poor and vulnerable proving they are cheating, compared to those cheating on tax returns.
If someone is fiddling welfare benefits, they will be caught in time. We now live in times where envy, resentment is encouraged, so everyone is a whistleblower, via those confidential clype lines.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
2 November, 2015 at 12:06 pm
“can someone explain the “– if the Electoral Commission allows it to…” comment or link me to the story ??”
Um, you know that that line is already a link, right?
Ruby replies
Do you mean everything in blue is a link? If I scroll over it and get the finger does that mean I can either click it or right click and select open in new tab and that will open the story about ‘the electoral commission allows it’?
That is PDB!
Valerie says:
2 November, 2015 at 12:09 pm
Ruby @9.41
What do you expect from the Torygraph?
Ruby replies
I expect all good Unionist to read the Telegraph and not just Tories. SLAB love Alan Cochrane.
I was just putting myself in Unionist shoes and trying to help Kezia out by posing the questions voters/journalist might ask her.
Anyone heard what she saying about Nato membership now that SLAB have decided to ditch Trident?
I suppose she could say she’s not voting to ditch Trident even if 70% of her party are. Perhaps we should ask Iain Murray the Nato question.
@ Petra at 9.32 pm yesterday:
It was mentioned in the Guardian:
link to archive.is
which quoted and linked to her letter to the Scotsman:
link to archive.is
so although more could certainly have been made of it, it was not entirely ignored by the MSM.
Too many people on this thread are playing the unionist game.
No-one asked or cared how many jobs would be lost when services/industry was privatised – the numbers were all propaganda anyway. I really don’t care if a few thousand people lose their jobs if it means getting that terror-weapon out of Scotland.
Look at the amount of jobs lost when those steel plants closed recently – a couple of days of hand-wringing in the media then onto pastures new. This whole argument has nothing whatsoever to do with jobs – it’s all about the prestige of being a nuclear power.
The only argument is ‘are you pro or anti indiscriminate WMD’.
@Angra Mainyu
Thanks for pointing that out about Ruby’s posting, even though I idly saw the Telegraph reference, I still took it to be Ruby’s view for some reason.
Tax credits isn’t a simple issue, and many deservedly benefit from them – and need them. Since 2008 the economy has been knackered whatever statistics will tell us about growth. Some parts of the economy are still in dire trouble, as are the people who do business in them, and work in them.
A lot of small businesses and self-employed haven’t seen work or takings improve, have perhaps business loans having invested in the business, and many are living hand to mouth waiting for it all to improve again – I’m one of them.
Another category is of people who are made redundant and have to make a new living, or perhaps some health problem like in my case I used years ago to suffer from RSI which caused me to pack up my previous line of work and start a new type of business. Without Gordon Brown’s working and child tax credits, I couldn’t even have thought of that, I’d have been on the buroo, unable to work in the one thing I was good at.
@ Robert Peffers 9.33
Robert you’re a gem. I enjoy reading your history comments and your piece on wind power above is an excellent antidote to the nuclear lobby nonsense generated daily.
It would be great if you, and some of the other very knowledgeable commenteers here, could write up a full size article on your specialist subjects. That way, it could be stored in Reference for the enlightenment of future readers. Stu willing of course.
[…] A convention of the world’s finest satirists pulling a 24-hour shift on Red Bull couldn’t come up with anything to beat Labour’s position on renewing the UK’s Trident nuclear weapons system. Following an overwhelming vote at the Scottish Labour conference this afternoon, these are the current cut-out-and-keep standings: […]