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The Labour case for Trident

Posted on July 17, 2016 by

This is prospective Labour leader Owen Smith on the Andrew Marr show this morning, explaining why he’ll be one of the 65% of Labour MPs voting in favour of the renewal of Trident next week:

Let’s just see if we can get this straight once and for all.

1. Labour wants to spend £200bn on a new Trident system so that it can then scrap it as soon as possible in multilateral disarmament talks, (incurring billions of pounds more in decommissioning costs), with a supposed long-term goal of completely eliminating all nuclear weapons on the planet.

2. That’s a bit like buying a Ferrari to replace your Ford Focus because you want to reduce carbon emissions by putting it in a car crusher. But weirdly, the last time a Labour government attempted to bring about some multilateral reductions, the idea of total disarmament was completely ruled out as “non-negotiable”.

browntrident

3. Owen Smith tells us that we need Trident because the world has become a more dangerous place. (We’ll generously gloss over the finer details of exactly how he plans to use nukes to defeat ISIS.) This, presumably, is why successive Labour and Tory governments have reduced the capability of the existing Trident fleet by almost half, first from 200 warheads to 160 and then from 160 to 120.

4. Labour wants the UK to have the strongest possible nuclear arsenal in order to use it as a bargaining chip in disarmament talks at some unspecified future date. The UK’s 120 warheads represent approximately 0.7% of the world’s current stockpile, so Labour’s position must be that it can leverage those 0.7% in order to bring about the removal of the other 99.3%.

Labour, then, is telling us that for every one warhead the UK decommissions, it can persuade the rest of the world to give up 142. We commend their ambition, and can only imagine that Labour are AMAZING at poker.

(We’re not aware of any cuts by other powers as a quid pro quo for the UK’s recent reductions from 200 warheads to 120, incidentally.)

5. Labour MPs and MSPs in constituencies with nuclear weapons installations, such as Jackie Baillie in West Dunbartonshire and John Woodcock in Barrow, simultaneously insist that the reason the weapons must be retained is to protect astronomical numbers of supposed jobs reliant on them.

Yet at the same time we’re told that the ultimate objective is to get rid of the weapons. So the goal is to keep the jobs in order to work diligently towards losing them again, rather than using the money to create jobs which would be sustainable in the long term.

That’s a bit like investing all your savings in Betamax video recorders the day after the DVD player is invented.

6. Even if we accept the wildest estimates of such MPs regarding the number of jobs reliant on Trident – which range from around 500, according to the MoD, up to absurdly inflated claims of over 20,000 – the lifetime cost of the system is expected to be in excess of £200 billion. That’s £10m per job over the 40-year period, or £250,000 per job per year.

We suspect that if you offered every employee dependent on Trident £125,000 a year for life to sit at home and watch box sets of Game Of Thrones, they’d snap your hand off. But instead Labour’s policy is to spend twice that much while ensuring that the employees get paid much less, and while trying its hardest to destroy their jobs.

So, in summary: get rid of nuclear weapons by buying more of them, in order to protect jobs by trying to get rid of them, because the world has become more dangerous so we have to give our weapons away. Have we missed anything?

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    611 to “The Labour case for Trident”

    1. thomas says:

      @shrodingers cat

      Once again mate thats not quite correct about queen margaret.

      The “saxon” linguistic influence didnt come from her as she and her brother were hungarian ( saxon father) , her brother was rejected by the saxon witan as the heir to the throne of england as he couldnt speak english.

      This is another misinterpretation of history , margaret influenced the celtic church in scotland at the time , not the celtic language , by attempting to bring it inline with england and europe by adopting roman ways.

      You mention strathclyde two points here. One strathclyde was much bigger than the modern county in those days , stretching further south incorporating large parts of cumbria and further east.

      the border ran something like from edinburgh to south cumbria , all ancinet celtic kingdoms in those days were not centralised countries as we imagine them from todays persepective , see both ireland and wales at the time which were similarly divided into petty kingdoms under an elected high king.

      Secondly the majority of the population of what became modern scotland lived north of the forth clyde , the lowlands were practically empty compared with today when industrialisation forced large swathes of the population into the central belt.

      The anglo danish language was confined to the rough area of the lammermuir hils until it started to spread through cultural osmosis via the burghs in the 14th century.

      This was when the normans adopted what became modern english in the mid 14th century both in scotland and england.

      like i say a misunderstood and massively misrepresented period in scottish history to attempt to give us anglo saxon roots and portray us as part of the so called british race.

      The vast majority of scotland in terms of population numbers spoke a celtic language from the beginning of recorded history till the reformation.

      Funny how the earliest record of english literature in scotland only stems from the late 15th century , except an anglian cross found just inside the border with english inscripotions on it from the 8th century , yet we are told the lowlands was full of english speakers?

      Where is the evidence?

      Both gaelic and cumbric languages in terms of literature and place names supply massive evidence , but little from english speakers?

      Sorry mate have to disagree.

    2. Jimmy The Pict says:

      500 missing comments,must be me.

    3. Ken500 says:

      The dirty, useless, illegal Westminster troughers are making people ill with worry. Everyone is sick of them. They will be gone before long. They are despicable. How can people carry on like that. A total and utter disgrace. Five hours of shame. They will night get away with it. Good riddance. IndyRef2.

    4. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This is the link to Chilcot-related fundraiser being discussed on news:

      Iraq War Families Campaign Group looking to raise £150k

      Currently at £3,105 –

      https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/

    5. Truth says:

      @Jimmy the Pict

      Click the “older comments” link.

      There’s a limit of 500 comments per page.

    6. Macbeda says:

      Time our MPs were returned from Westminster and to revoke the Union.

      We cannot, must not legitimise those people in Westminster.

      Every SNP amendment to Scotland Bill overturned by drunken and braying Kingdom of England and Wales Tory and Labour MPs

      We want to stay in EU but are being forced out by the Kingdom of England and Wales by their population.

      We don’t want Trident. We certainly don’t want Trident in our country but it is being forced on us by The Kingdom of England and Wales.

      Enough.

      Time to return.

    7. One_Scot says:

      Scotland in a corrupt, demeaning and damaging union, constantly being lied to and mislead by the British state and Yoon media, being forced out of the EU against her will, while Westminster gives the green light to continue storing their Weapons of mass destruction on Scotland’s land.

      If Scotland cannot win an Independence referendum now, then there is something seriously wrong somewhere.

    8. Luigi says:

      Awful timing, Mrs May. I don’t it was wise to push Trident so soon after Brexit. It’s a powerful reminder to most people in Scotland that we should get the hell out of this union. Talk about a double whammy.

    9. Woody says:

      Morals eh. Nice man that Stuart Campbell isn’t he.

    10. One_Scot says:

      It does beg the question, is there no limit to the amount of shit they can dump on Scotland.

    11. Grouse Beater says:

      The sheer unadulterated, thick, pig ignorance and fear mongering among born again empire loyalists with peas for brains was sickening.

      They kept talking about a duty to protect their citizens while selling us a pack of lies.

      Hardly any had done any homework on the aftermath of thermonuclear war.

    12. diabloandco says:

      Tinto Chiel, I remember it well as a schoolgirl protesting as a ban the bomber – still sends shivers up my spine.

      Mr and Mrs Smallaxe , thinking of you both today.

    13. schrodingers cat says:

      soz folks, i know im going off topic with james, but thats because but I am just as furious as you about trident

      I have said many times on these pages, historically, the snp has been divided many times in the past, most noticabley the split over the monarchy in the late 70s and early 80s. what kept us together was a realisation that,

      “what you think, what you say and how you vote, are irrelevant”

      whether you are pro or anti eu, whether you are pro or anti trident and whether you like the new thatcher or not…. all of these issues are decided elsewhere

      only with independence will your votes count.

      interesting thread james, but maybe for later on in the evening or in off topic. Im working on a google map, of scotland 500bc to 1000ad , if you have google earth pro (free download) i could email you the KMZ file to you, we would really images and graphs to highlight examples etc.

      One saving grace about trident, I think even more nos will move to yes, another nail in the uks coffin

    14. scotspine says:

      Call Kaye this morning explains that following yesterday’s vote and SNP calls on WM to respect Scotland’s representation and remove Nuclear Weapons from the Clyde, she wants to hear whether Scotland actually supports that position.

      What she really means is: we are going to have a phone in and only give pro Trident callers time to rant against SNP politicians.

      EAT YOUR CEREAL FOLKS (preferably the drier the better)

    15. galamcennalath says:

      Timing of Trident vote. I’m having difficulty getting my head round, why now?

      Our representatives have already complained that this is an inappropriate time because the general mayhem has prevented proper debate. Of course, we can take it as read that WM don’t want protracted public debate.

      In a Scottish content, though, why now? They have no mandate here and we natives are already restless! Perhaps it’s simply a show of force reminding Scots who’s in charge when it comes to the big issues … in the minds of the WM elite, that is of course.

      In the coming months the SG and others need to make a big issue of the way Scots’ wishes are simply brushed aside. There is much more than just the EU.

    16. Macart says:

      @Luigi

      Broad shoulders, near federalism devolution settlement, guaranteed place in the EU, Scottish parliamentarians encouraged to lead and participate in the government of the union going forward. A partnership…

      Better Together.

      So just to recap:

      Broad shoulders – in 23 months loss of employment across all sectors in Scotland running into thousands.

      The Scotland Bill – responsibility for gathering a percentage of taxes without control of the full range of tax bands, resources or revenue streams. Responsibility for aggregates levy, road signage and APD. Oh and the Scottish parliament’s permanence is NOT written into the constitution of the UK.

      Guaranteed place in the EU – That went well.

      ‘PARTNERSHIP’ – See under Chilcot, EVEL and TRIDENT.

      100% failure rate on all pledges and assurances made to the Scottish electorate in 2014.

      Now that’s talent.

    17. Capella says:

      The SNP were the stars of yesterday’s debate. Some other good speeches from Plaid Cymru, Caroline Lucas, some Labour and even a Tory.

      The sneering pomposity from many Tory and Labour MPs underlines the lack of democracy in the Westminster system. It is useless as a decision making body. The SNP contingent might as well return to Scotland and set up a debating chamber in Edinburgh.

      Getting rid of these weapons from Scottish soil is now a priority. For that, independence is essential.

      One thing is certain, we can rely on all branches of the Establishment to lie at an industrial strength from now on. I haven’t been a fan of Facebook or Twitter but looks like social media are going to be essential tools of countering the MSM.

    18. Stoker says:

      Brilliant wee piece of ammo for our arsenal folks.
      Taken from the WOS Twitter feed:

      “Looking at Trident vote, it’s clear: almost every Labour MP who abstained on the welfare bill in 2015 voted to burn £200 billion on Trident.”

      May these b@$t@rd$ never refer to us as “Tartan Tories” or “Vile Nasty Cybernats” ever ever again! Paedo loving warmongers!

    19. Ken500 says:

      The totally unelected Westminster Gov. A shambles of democracy. A bunch of crooks destroying the UK/World economy so they can tax evade and case mayhem. Unionists tolal and absolute corruption. They have committed electoral fraud in over 29 constituency, and nothing s being done about it. They should be put in jail.

      Trump and his wife are migrants. Total, lying, tax evading, criminal hypocrites.

    20. scotspine says:

      Mcternan on call Kaye……

    21. Famous15 says:

      Call Kaye euch!

      “But what about North Korea?”

      “”What about North Korea?”

      Another Unionist best argument not fired by intelligence ,military or mental, bites the dust!

    22. Bill says:

      Woody

      We all know how this ends, Scotland will leave the union. There won’t be a GB. Get over it.

      As for this sites contributors, they are indeed from a very broad spectrum of society including myself. I spent 10yrs on nuclear submarines including Trident.

      So, just as your side said get over it and accept the result, we ask you to do the same. Accept what we are doing, move out of the way and get over it.

    23. Glamaig says:

      When there’s exactly 500 comments, none of the comments are shown, nor are the ‘newer comments’ or ‘older comments’ links.

      Bug report 🙂

    24. Stoker says:

      Capella wrote:
      “One thing is certain, we can rely on all branches of the Establishment to lie at an industrial strength from now on. I haven’t been a fan of Facebook or Twitter but looks like social media are going to be essential tools of countering the MSM.

      Great minds and all that! Don’t know about facebook but i’m in the process of getting my daughter to show and teach me the ins-and-outs of the twattersphere. Another string to my bow, hopefully!

    25. I wonder how all those Labour voters feel who have experienced the impact of tory cuts, seeing their MPs siding with and giving Theresa May’s Tories a blank cheque in a vote to renew Trident.

    26. Bill says:

      Stoker,

      Don’t bother with Twitter, it’s full of people like Woody. They’ll troll and abuse till you’re sick of it. Besides one reason we lost was too many keyboard warriors, forget Twitter etc, get your comfy shoes on and satchel out, start taking again: it’s game on.

    27. galamcennalath says:

      Macart says:

      “100% failure rate on all pledges and assurances made to the Scottish electorate in 2014.”

      They ask us to respect the 2014 decision and yet it seems like every doom and gloom prophecy about Indy has come to pass in this better together Union!

      And, as you say, it’s total failure on their promises.

      IndyRef1? Definitely null and void now. Let’s try again.

    28. Stoker says:

      Jimmy The Pict wrote: “500 missing comments,must be me.”

      Jimmy, (and others), look just under the most recent comment and you’ll see the words “Older Comments” – click on that and it should take you to all 500 previous comments.

      Every 500 comments automatically generate a fresh page for comment.

      To return to the newest page of comments just click your back-arrow or look under the last comment for the words “Newer Comments”, click on that and it should return you to the latest comments.

    29. Glamaig says:

      galamcennelath
      “In the coming months the SG and others need to make a big issue of the way Scots’ wishes are simply brushed aside. There is much more than just the EU.”

      BBC reported this morning that the SNP have demanded that Trident is removed from Faslane. I hope this is reported in Germany and other EU countries, because it might give us a huge boost there.

      58 out of Scottish 59 MP’s (not just the ’54 SNP MPs’ reported by R4 last night) are anti-Trident. The Scottish government of 9 years (recently returned to office with the biggest vote share of any government in Europe) is anti-Trident. A vote in Holyrood for removal of Trident would pass easily, perhaps there will be one when Holyrood resumes.

      Yet we are paying for this thing to be developed and stationed next to our biggest city.

      I think if all this is known across the EU it will strengthen support for us even more.

    30. Robert Peffers says:

      Sheesh! McTornface on Kaye wi wan e’e just now blethering pish as usual. He claims the SNP are hypocrites for supporting NATO while being against nuclear weapons.

      The guy is a total idiot. There are 28 NATO Members and only 3 of are nuclear powers. What is more, since NATO was born, by WWII winning nations, not a single use has ever been made of a NATO nuclear weapon yet NATO has been involved in just about every conflict in the World.

      The avowed purpose of NATO is for all member states to come to the aid of any member state that is attacked. There is no need for that defence to be by nuclear bombs.

      The real deterrent to attacks upon a member state is the massive powers of the combined NATO alliance and not that of the only three nuclear powers in NATO.

      Not only that, but a majority of the members of NATO are anti-Nuclear states.

      Anyway did anyone expect BBC Radio Scotland to be other than what it is – the anti-Scotland shit stirrers they have always been?

    31. heedtracker says:

      Finally, BetterTogether Slovenia loves nukes. Blessed St Margret Thatcher looks down from on high in toryboy heaven and her colonialists rejoice.

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 11h11 hours ago
      The right decision on the United Kingdom’s defence and security by the United Kingdom’s Parliament. #Trident

    32. gordoz says:

      Just heard Angel Haggerty (radical left) really helping the indy cause there with a few subtle digs at the SNP. With friends like Angela eh ?

      Complete hospital passes to McTiernan who quotes ‘Angela makes sum very good points about the SNP who want to keep nuclear through NATO!’

      Jeez talk about mixed messages. Maybe want to rethink the time & place to settle scores Angela.

      Hopeless for the cause very disappointed in that performance.

      If McTiernan likes what you’re saying ??

    33. One_Scot says:

      It is plain to see that Scotland and England don’t get along and that they have very little in common, and yet the dominant partner still wishes to force control over the weaker.

      Clearly it is never going to work out, and will only get worse. It is now time for a clean break for the benefit of both.

    34. Ken500 says:

      North Korea has been sanctioned and starved by the US for over fifty years. The reason for the WMD’s – fear of attack. China supports it to stop starvation of the people.

      Civil war in the US while the US sanctions, starves and kills the world. More US lies.

    35. heedtracker says:

      This is from a toryboy party that has one MP in Scotland and had to commit all kinds of alleged electoral expense fraud to get what is it, 25% English voters?

      Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
      Eddie Barnes ?@EddieBarnes23 11h11 hours ago Glasgow, Scotland
      Here’s the polling: if other states are keeping theirs, more in Scotland back retention of deterrent than not

    36. Bill says:

      Some Trident basic facts, (since it appears that Woody hasn’t a clue,)

      There is only one boat on patrol at any one time.

      One boat is in Faslane completing final preparations to relieve the patrol boat.

      So where are the other two?

      One in refit with its core removed etc and another in dry dock or finalising refit.

      So where are all the crews and families?

      They’ve gone too, on courses they have to do, the artificers may be doing their “long course” for example. I’m just saying because many Yoons claim that Trident and its crews/ families can be relocated to USA or France! Every time I heard that I wanted to punch myself in the face.

      Trident can’t be moved, independence means UK disarmament, they’re desperate for us to believe it can be moved/ rehomed in order to take off the table the ace card that we hold.

      Do let me know if you want to know more about Trident.

    37. Andrew McLean says:

      Defence, well yes,

      But has anyone heard of that small country on the periphery of a continent that had expansionist plans that eventually enabled them by the might of their army and Navy to control nearly half the planet?

      A country Whose might is right attitude, involved them in becoming the largest state controlled heroin dealers the planet has ever seen? a country that taught their God was bigger than everyone else’s God, and this God gave them the right of dominion over men? A country that taught in life to be born one of them was to win life’s lottery, therein they are the superior race? A country that imposed its way of life and dubious morality on every country it conquered, they call it “discovered”.

      The fact their extreme nationalism blinds them even today to the facts they “Discovered” the continents’ with gun boats and landed marine expeditionary forces, planted their flag and enslaved the sovereign right of the inhabitants, who really didn’t appreciate being “Discovered” in the first place, probably as they had already “discovered” that they were living there quite happily since the dawn of time anyway.

      A country that by “ethnic cleansing” or dumping its prisoners, or what they called “Plantation” landed its populous in a “Blood and Soil” campaigning of world domination.

      This small country still holding onto “property” i.e. someone else’s land, some the other side of the world, the rest they had to quit only when forced out, and that usually by a taste of the violence they brought to the inhabitants in the first place.

      Now this small country, still pumped with its superiority complex, who think it’s small capital is the “world Capital City” after a xenophobic referendum that portrayed our fellow human beings as a “swarm” who class my brother as racially beneath them and not fit to live in their country. Has decided to renew the most repugnant weapon of ultimate war that can destroy the planet, because they feel safer???? And they are bad countries out there and they need to defend “their way of Life”.

      A country so bereft of morality that when they’re new supreme leader was asked could she pour petrol over a million children and strike the match she didn’t hesitate to shout YES.

      And before we fall into the trap of self righteousness , we Scotland, have assisted this bunch of lunatics for generations.
      Well past time to change our destiny , take control again, become one with our planet again, and with a better dialogue than hitherto we have been guilty of by association.

    38. Bill says:

      Brexit is a mandate for independence.

      Trident renewal is another mandate for independence.

      What more material change do we need?

      Another phoney war?

    39. heedtracker says:

      Two million Scots voted toryboy now.

      Pinned Tweet
      Jackson Carlaw MSP ?@Carlaw4Eastwood 11h11 hours ago
      A key reason 2m Scots voted No was that they didn’t trust @theSNP with the safety & security of our country. Today they were proven correct.

    40. sinky says:

      Call Kaye now joining up with McTernan in attacking SNP MP Kirsten Oswald over NATO and Trident stance.

    41. Papadox says:

      FFS Kay with an E is defending McTeirnan on her anti Scottish propaganda and trying to put the boot into SNP MP and Scotland. The good old EBC are in full anti Scottish propaganda mode.

    42. Alan Mackintosh says:

      The unseemly haste with which this vote was brought forward is curious. Some have alluded to the 10% drop in Sterling and this may be part of it. Its also gone very quiet about the 29 MPs being investigated for election expenses. How slim is that majority of 12 once some of them end up in court and potentially by-elections.

      @ Grousebeater, re your gabions. You need to add in cross wires about half way up to stop them bulging front and back, using the tie wire you should have received with them. For tying the wire the best tool is a pair of end cutting pliers. Cut a loop (6″) and feed it through and cross the ends over. Grip them with the pliers and twist them tight, (and then cut) this will tighten all the connections much better than trying to do it with your fingers. In addition tie all the gabions together in the same way, with twisted wire. (Apologies if this is all known to you)

    43. heedtracker says:

      Uk.gov says its only “around” 63% of UK defence budget which is great value really for a toryboy nuclear holocaust.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-nuclear-deterrence-factsheet/uk-nuclear-deterrence-what-you-need-to-know#a-minimum-and-credible-deterrent

      Cost
      the Trident Alternatives Review in 2013 demonstrated that no alternative system is as capable as the current Trident based deterrent, or as cost effective

      as set in the 2015 SDSR we estimate that 4 new Successor submarines will cost £31 billion to build, test and commission, spread over 35 years, with a contingency of £10 billion. On average, that amounts to 0.2% per year of government spending

      we expect that, once the new fleet of deterrent submarines come into service, the in-service costs of the UK’s nuclear deterrent will be similar to those of today, at around 6% of the defence budget

    44. Ian Brotherhood says:

      At 7.30 this was just under £2,000.

      It’s now at £11,467.

      Not sure if it’s going at quite the rate we’re used to with WOS fundraisers, but can’t be that far off it.

      🙂

      https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/

    45. heedtracker says:

      Red tory pretty silent on Trident today, just like yesterday. Baillie and Roden makes a couple of Britnat’s from hell though

      Jackie Baillie Retweeted
      Alan Roden ?@AlanRoden Jul 18
      In today’s Scottish Daily Mail, @paulbsinclair on the SNP’s illogical anti-Trident position.

      It is a great ad but red tory activists like this really need to get to their twitter accounts and rejoice with blue tories and their WMD’s.

      John Ruddy Retweeted
      Cllr Kevin Peel ?@kevpeel 2h2 hours ago
      Corbyn’s ad in the Guardian today is astonishing. We’d all rather be fighting the Tories Jeremy but you’re incapable of leading that fight.

    46. Nana says:

      @Alan MacKintosh

      It is believed the real reason Cameron announced an early trident vote was to split labour even further.

      https://www.rt.com/uk/346963-conservative-trident-labour-split/

      Today’s daily mash
      http://m.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/trident-only-effective-against-labour-party-20160719111026

    47. Les Wilson says:

      SNP are completely right, if the English want nuclear weapons then remove them to their own patch. We do not want them, to not remove them would add to our democratic deficit which is getting ever bigger.

      Idiots on call Kaye, finely filtered of course and with McTernan the great political strategist firmly in place. BBC are a disgrace.

      These weapons are on OUR doorstep, they are transported through our biggest city in convoy in the middle of the night. What other country would put up with that?

      While they make us a first strike target, there is also the good chance of a nuclear accident which could devastate Glasgow and further afield.There have been a few close calls, even accidents on our roads while bringing them here.

      Nuclear subs left to rot in Rosyth, are another issue. None of this is remotely near the elites, they, as usual, remain in their nuclear dumping ground. This really has to end.

      So if they want their nuclear toys GTF! to Portsmouth or some like.

    48. Stoker says:

      Bill wrote:
      “Don’t bother with Twitter, it’s full of people like Woody. They’ll troll and abuse till you’re sick of it. Besides one reason we lost was too many keyboard warriors, forget Twitter etc, get your comfy shoes on and satchel out, start taking again: it’s game on.”

      Aye, cheers for that Bill. I already do a lot of groundwork delivering WBB’ etc etc and i also have several other wee methods of spreading the word and projects on the go.

      As for the ‘Twattersphere’, i have a special plan or two in mind for that and one of them involves the type of abusers you mention. You’ll be familiar with the phrases; “Fly’s on shite” and “If they’re bothering me they’re leaving others alone”?

      I’ll just leave it at that, Bill, and bid you good day. Don’t want to give the game away but the ‘Yoons’ are not the only folk capable of playing distraction and disruption games.

      We are all capable of creating alter egos or fake personas and becoming whatever the mind can invent. In a previous life i’ve been a pro Brexit anti Europe Englishman, among others. Do you believe in the afterlife and reincarnation Bill? 😉

    49. Bob Mack says:

      The more I think of it the more convinced I become about the reason for last night’s debate. May has just thrown Labour into total meltdown by exposing what she already knew about their disarray. However,she clearly wanted it on public view for all the world to see.

      Secondly ,she knows she has a problem with Scotland. A major problem. I believe that she is looking at the Holyrood results and is gambling that the SNP would not obtain the same result again at Westminster. Add this to the fact Davidson has been trying to harvest the hard line Unionist vote.

      I think we are indeed heading for a general election imminently on the pretext that May is putting her leadership to public vote.

      She will undoubtedly win.

    50. Grouse Beater says:

      Alan: “Gabions: you need to add in cross wires about half way up to stop them bulging front and back, using the tie wire you should have received with them.”

      Done that, ta. Just completed the first and taken a photograph for the history books. I reckon I’ll be so knackered by the last I’ll get buried in it as ballast!

    51. Dan Huil says:

      According to the bbc the number of Scottish jobs dependent on Trident is rising by 5000 every hour. Total currently stands at 1,924,000

    52. Dan Huil says:

      @Bob Mack 10:18am

      If you’re right then perhaps we should have indyref2 a week before Maggie’s May’s early general election?

    53. G4jeepers says:

      https://archive.is/0DIaI

      The Ayes and the Naes

    54. Training Day says:

      There comes a point – oh, say when hundreds of your amendments to a Bill affecting your country have been unanimously ignored, when your country has been forced out of the European Union despite voting to stay, and when the wishes of 58 of your 59 elected representatives are scorned and your country is reduced to a regional repository for nuclear weapons – when staying part of the system that inflicts this upon you becomes, shall we say, counter-productive.

      Demonstrating our impotence in the Westminster cesspit to the Scottish people is and has been necessary, but be careful we don’t reach the point where resignation and weariness replace anger…

    55. heedtracker says:

      BBC belchs out the Trident Deterrent victory stuff in colossal displays of nuke war propaganda. Why Trident Weapons instead of Deterrent, the sneaky creepy shits? Post nuclear holocaust UK will be renamed BBCland.

      England does love Nukes, War is good, but one tory against. Can you spot the nae tory?

      How did your MP vote?

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    56. JET Jockey says:

      A mystery sub has surfaced in the River Clyde, Our limited intelligence service (money all spent on aircraft-carriers and Trident)has discovered it has a crew of suicide bombers from bases in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Saudi. Kuwait, China, Cambodia with links to all countries in Europe. It has a short range nuclear bomb as powerful as the ones on Trident and the crew have communicated they have targeted Faslane, The Trident active submarine is in the Berens sea, but its missiles could target this mystery sub, Remember what Bobo said “what you gonna do now Yogi” (Theresa)

    57. Andrew McLean says:

      heedtracker says:

      looking a that list,

      So many Democrat so little Democracy.

    58. Effijy says:

      Against my better judgement, I tuned in to hear today’s propaganda on UKAYE OK.

      We must take our hat off to Westminster for their control over the Media, especially the EBC.

      So many people completely brain dead or brain washed people

      One lady suggests that Nuclear Weapons have kept world peace???

      Has there been a day since the bombing of Hiroshima that there has not been a war or wars on-going?

      I did some research, and it appears that there have been 160 Wars since 1945.
      Is this what Nuclear Bombs achieve, is this what people are calling peace in our time?

      I again state that if the UK and Russia decided to go to War and launch these weapons, Central Scotland is completely wiped out, whether we fire first or second.

      The Nuclear radiation drifting over everything that we eat and drink will ensure terminal cancers for what little life survives that initial attack.

      This bring us on to the next question, if you know that you are about to die from an impending attack, do you die happy knowing that soon after one million innocent men, women, and children will die in a foreign land?

      I can’t see any gain, benefit or victory in this scenario.

      If you do, could I ask you if you think it would be worth while bombing France and Belgium?
      There are obviously many ISIS terrorist cells there, you could wipe them out, and so what if all the other innocents have to die too.

      Is this really the mentality of average UK citizen?
      Do you accept that you may not be able to have that operation that you need as the funds have gone Nuclear.
      Will you remove all welfare support, including the support our disabled citizens require, as we need new bombs?

      Get me out of here! I’m a believer in Christianity!

      Confucius said that when go seeking revenge, you should did 2 graves. What a very wise man!

    59. heedtracker says:

      Red and blur tory England loves the Bomb but why does the only toryboy out there in teamGB land not? No doubt he’s really weally worried about the mass loss of life, a loss of life that really weally could be the end of all life on planet Earth.

      No

      “He said it was a threat to the future of the UK.

      Then let us not forget the risks that this particular weapon system presents to the United Kingdom. Basing it in Scotland strengthens the nationalist narrative. Ironically for a system justified on the basis that it protects the UK, it could prove instrumental in the Union’s undoing.”

      The Bomb, says the one nae toryboy will, “Strengthen the nationalist narrative” in his scotland region.

      Is there any toryboy at all out there that’s not an arsehole?

    60. Bob Mack says:

      @Dan Huil,

      I think the timing of indy ref2 is crucial,but I am sure SNP strategists are looking at this in any event. I just hope the advice is good.

      Training Day makes a valid point also about voter apathy / weariness. These will undoubtedly also been taken into consideration during Tory strategy meetings.
      However, what they may underestimate is the resolve of those who want independence. They will not give up so easily. It is easy to deceive yourself in such a scenario, and I think that is what the Tories will do.

    61. James Barr Gardner says:

      Tories now that Trident is out the way are going to unpick the triple lock on the old age pension ! MSM propaganda machine painting picture of pensioners having it too good.

      Uk OAP is one of the lowest in Europe FFS !

      The Grey Vote are really going to buy into that !

    62. Stoker says:

      G4jeepers posted: https://archive.is/0DIaI

      Cheers, thanks for that!

    63. JaceF says:

      This
      “It comes down to this, the very last people who should be in charge of nuclear weapons are those who actively seek their proliferation and are prepared to spend our money on the very weapons that would bring about the eradication our lives. That is a very special sort of insanity that I want no part of.”

      from here https://creatorsnotconsumers.wordpress.com/

    64. Dr Jim says:

      Is that the Woodlouse back, it promised to go away
      typical Yoon it can’t manage to keep a promise for even a couple of days before reneging (must be a blue Yoon) could be a red one who can tell these days

      Or has it seen the light, probably not, just having another go at propping up it’s Yoonion with more lying crapspew

    65. Inverclyder says:

      With the imminent split of both Labour UK and the Branch Office what will the new name be here?

      Pretendy Socialist Party
      Kez and the Incredible Jelly Bean Eaters
      New Scottish Labour II or III and Flute Band
      The Fundily Mundily Party
      We’re Pure Serious So We Ur Party
      The Empire Strikes Back Party
      We Hate The SNP Party
      SNP Bad but So Are The Tory Party Party

      Perhaps The Desperation Party would be best.

    66. Lochside says:

      I’m sorry to keep coming back to this…but the SNP must up their game! I caught the last half hour of call UKAYE and listened TO a nice but ineffective SNP representative struggle to answer the Nato/WMD supposed ‘question’.

      Attacked on both sides by a shrill Kaye and an odious McTernan, she failed to score once…and yet again let the initiative go to the anti-SNP narrative.

      She should have come on and gone straight on the offensive…challenging McTernan’s belief in democracy…99% of Scotland’s representatives ignored…and what about his scurvy lot?…divided and discredited. Furthermore, who is John McTernan representing?

      I looked him up and apparently he is an ‘associate’ for the Westminster Policy Institute…based in London by David Cameron’s ex special adviser Sean Worth. It is apparently’ an experienced and highly-networked team of consultants drawn from backgrounds in Downing Street, the Treasury and senior policy and media roles’…..in other words a parasitic jobs for the boys for clapped out advisers, but still a gravy train.

      Their latest client is RENEWAL, a tory campaign group who have tasked them to target the working class vote in the ‘North’ for the tories. Yet this was not revealed by Kaye. I doubt he even was named as Labour’s ex c-in-c during Smurfs’ led disasterous wipe out of Labour in Scotland at the G.E.

      As if this was’nt enough to disqualify him from being on Call UKAYE’S propaganda slot (on his tod apparently and unchallenged by an opposing expert). The info that the REV put up on this site, about this rat on the 1st of Jan 2015 (I can’t link!) should have been enough to render this shitebag speechless.

      What is wrong with the SNP media unit/advisers?…They shoot themselves in the head all the time, by putting the wrong people up against street fighters like McSneernan. They don’t prep their spokespeople with ammo to launch at these lice. For instance, it was a stick on that they ( the BBC and McSneernan) were going with the Nato/WMD meme..Jackie Baillie…notably absent during the last week’s debate..tweeted her admiration of Paul Sinclair’s same meme this morning earlier.

      If Fannie May decides to go for a quick G.E to destroy Labour and unite the tory vote…before any Article 50 trigger, then we are in big trouble….those who think there has been a massive move to YES are premature in my mind. The ‘uncertainty’ (yeah that word) is palpable and unfortunately many people..such as ‘Woody’ get hard at the thought of a Thatcherite Mark2 in charge of UK LTD (very limited), and not just in England.

      The SNP forget that if they lose one or two seats in the UK parliament that the media wil really bury them…the signs have been there since the G.E. We must seize the initiative in these small but critical battles of the ether. Why doesn’t each branch nominate 2/3 people to phone in to this programme and lie that they support the status quo..then get stuck in? Eventually the BBC would get wise but the damage to their credibility will have been done. One last thought….we all think that the BBC lies are being seen through by the ‘public’…but just maybe all these numpties that phone in are truly representative of Jock public.

    67. MarkerPost says:

      Strange how UK’s systems are called deterrents, but other countries’ are called Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    68. schrodingers cat says:

      many point out that the timing of this issue by the tories was designed to damage the labour party, and it has succeeded.

      but lets not forget, it has also damaged slab and their support in scotland, (whether the support or oppose trident) one of the main unionist parties and our opponents. thanks for that 🙂

      sure, many will defect to ruthies party, but many will join us. the labour party is doing its best to destroy itself, but lets not forget the efforts of the tories to help them.

      hurrah
      🙂

    69. Dr Jim says:

      BBC reporting splits and rows in the Tory party leadership already over who’s in charge of what regarding Brexit

      It seems the only things the UK of England is united on is the need to kill as many people as they possibly can and they definately hate Scotland

      They’ll be combining those two things before we can say Independence

    70. harry mcaye says:

      I too caught the last wee bit of Call Kaye and I thought I would be shouting at my radio when McTernan came on but I hate to say this, he won the spat with Kirsten Oswald. An independent Scotland being in NATO is a contradiction and Kirsten blustered her way through it and didn’t properly answer him. Kaye was very forceful with her, you know what, we shouldn’t always rail against the SNP being asked difficult questions. She’s a journalist, it’s her job and frankly Kirsten was not convincing at all.

      I have a whole heap of issues about that show, I mentioned Dr Scott Arthur yet again getting through the other day to slag the SNP even though the subject matter was the new PM, but as said by someone above, the SNP need to up their game and it is very hard to be so anti nuclear weapons whilst being in NATO and happy to remain in NATO. Happy for someone else to have nuclear weapons just not us. It doesn’t sit right with me. It’s something else we don’t need hanging over another indy campaign for them to throw at us.

    71. Effijy says:

      I agree about some SNP representatives being ill prepared for attack on all fronts from UK Media and Politicians.

      It really does look like they must be afraid to log into Wings over Scotland to see the research and answers that they need to be armed with.

      I do see reasons why SNP wouldn’t state that they are
      linked directly to WoS, but for pity sake do not walk past
      our Reasons and Mass Instruction.

    72. scotspine says:

      McTernan won nothing. His agenda was clear and he was abetted by a partisan Adams.

      So Germany told the US and UK to remove their tactical Nuclear Weapons from their Country and remained in NATO. Are they hypocrites too?

    73. schrodingers cat says:

      not sure we can do anything about the bbc

      they will have a list of callers who will be the only folk to get through,

      it is difficult for any snp mp to make the case against 3 unionist and a biased presenter.

      i agree that the movement to yes may not be as big as some think, unfortunately, there are no publicised opinion polls to measure this. one showing 43/42% pro anti trident came out from scotland, no problem, im unsure why none have come from the snp.

    74. Luigi says:

      Lochside,

      I’m not a member of the SNP, but the thing about the party that impresses me is that (since 2014 anyway) everyone gets a chance. Not all would be politicians and spokespersons make the grade, but those that do are given time and space to shine extremely brightly. Think of Mhari Black, Tommy Shepherd, Joanne Cherry (to name but a few) – all new to the game, all absolute stars, fast-tracked because they were given a chance to shine, and boy did they take it. Of course, on occasion it leads to missed open goals during debates etc (even the best do that sometimes), but the benefits outweigh the costs. Long may it continue.

    75. K1 says:

      ‘but just maybe all these numpties that phone in are truly representative of Jock public.’

      Jock public put those 58 MP’s into Westminster, and almost 50% of the vote share in the Holyrood elections. I agree there may well be a ‘majority’ of people who listen to the crap spouted and promulgated by the likes of KwianE, who hold to the views they express but they are not ‘The’ majority of the public in Scotland.

      We are the true majority and most of this majority does not tune into that crap. So let them whine and spout pish into these programmes and perpetuate the illusion that they are somehow representative of Jock public.

      The reality is precisely the point everyone is making, this ‘is’ propaganda in action. We are not ‘taken in’ by it and therefore remain ever astonished at the gullibility of those who are desperate to cling to a ‘worldview’ that is not consistent with reality.

      We are witnessing epistemic closure in action in the mainstream media.

      Here’s a grand definition of this phenomenon form Lallands Peat Worrier from 2013 and a couple of wee snippets from his article:

      ‘..in its political application, the idea refers to the effect, when a party and its supporters load themselves up into the echo chamber, slam the door shut behind them, and turn the key in the lock.’

      Further…this describe exactly what is happening across our media and political landscape:

      ‘Inside, all is warm and cosy. Dissenting voices are smothered into silence, or exile themselves from the stultifying fug of its unquestioned, and occasionally dangerously wrong, consensus. The common sense in the room, however uncommon it may be in the country, works its strange magic. Everyone I know agrees with me, so surely everyone really agrees with me.’

      http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/scottish-labour-learned-nothing.html

    76. Luigi says:

      Nana says:

      19 July, 2016 at 10:12 am

      It is believed the real reason Cameron announced an early trident vote was to split labour even further.

      Indeed. But, in doing so, they yet again put their precious union in peril. Time and again, the tories have shown a willingness to jeopardise the union, just to hit their main threat to power, the Labour party (EVEL, GE 2015, HE 2016) or to retain power (EU referendum). Well, they are getting pretty good at it – Labour are functionally extinct at present. The problem is that each hammer blow to the Labour party has been a hammer blow to the union (which is also fast becoming functionally extinct). It seems that, for all the tories’ strong BritNat instincts, the lust for power trumps even that.

    77. Bob Mack says:

      @Scrodingers cat,

      The poll that showed that result was slaughtered by CND. Apparently the questions asked in England and Wales was different to the question asked in Scotland.
      England was asked directly about Trident missiles whilst Scotland was asked about Trident submarines.

    78. Effijy says:

      The majority of nations in NATO, do not have Nuclear Weapons, so why would Scotland want to have them?

      We would be a member in so much that we could provide Troops, Ships, and Equipment for any conventional confrontations where we agree the need for confrontation.

      If England wanted to fire Nuclear Weapons at Russia, you better believe Scotland would be against it, as we already know from Chernobyl, the radioactive fall out will land in Scotland.

      Do they really expect us to say yes to our own lingering death?

      Norway,Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine, and Georgia are just some of the countries who would face death by Nuclear fallout if Russia is targeted.
      Will they vote for their own destruction if NATO asks?

      Does anyone know where you might pick up a compensation form should the US Decide to keep a Nuclear war in Europe
      and fire against the wishes of most NATO Members?

      What on scorched earth would you do if that happens?

      Do you think there will be free flights to Disney Land
      for any European survivors?

    79. heedtracker says:

      An independent Scotland being in NATO is a contradiction and Kirsten blustered her way through it and didn’t properly answer him

      That’s only acurate if you nuke nutters go around every other NATO country without a Trident WMD and tell them its “contradiction.” Pro Trident voters are very creepy indeed

      How many NATO member states have no nukes?

      Google says

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO

      28 NATO members, is it three have nukes, maybe four harry mcaye?

    80. Grouse Beater says:

      The only nation to have dropped atomic bombs on another nation, and without warning, is the USA. It dropped not one but two to test their effectiveness.

      No other nation on earth had atomic bombs at that time.

      All atomic and thermonuclear knowledge has leaked from USA research, or been sold by the USA to another nation, such as England and Israel.

      Were a nation to fire a nuclear bomb onto London that wiped out the government and military executive, there is no guarantee anybody left could take the decision to retaliate. And the resultant radiation would infect England and its water for 100 mil radius or more for 50 years or more.

    81. Dr Jim says:

      @ harry mcaye

      Absolutely Harry, we certainly don’t want to be like every other country in the world who doesn’t have WMDs we should be like John McTernon and call all these other countries Hypocrites for desiring to be inclusive in a world protection agreement that could eventually lead to the lessening of WMDs
      as opposed to the increase of them
      In fact we should be like England and cut everybody off who doesn’t agree with us, that would show them eh

      As to Call Kaye the semi bumbling housewife act is only there except when the SNP is represented then she becomes Labour party attack dog
      Perhaps you didn’t notice the increase in volume of Mcternon’s Mike and Kaye’s and Kirsten Oswalds became quite distant while the two attack dogs spoke almost at the same time partially over her giving her barely time to respond, and remember Ms Oswald was on the phone and cannot hear the entire conversation

      I have spent 50 years in the entertainment business I know Broadcasting and how to use tech to diminish others and that applies right down to studio lighting as well re TV live debates

      Never think what you’re hearing or even seeing is what the respondents are hearing and seeing
      You mentioned Dr Arthur the constant voice of Call Kaye, always clear as a bell isn’t he yet others when required are garbled or distant

      A good and easy trick by the broadcaster is to allow the radio playback through the telephone line this causes an echo in the callers ear and they hear themselves twice which also delays response, I’ve done that one myself, it makes the caller sound as if they’re slow to respond
      The BBC used it many times on Alex Salmond while they make their point then apologise for the delay in sound for the reply, Andrew Marr favours this approach it makes life easy for the presenter and more folk are catching on to it

      That’s why the BBCs reputation is shit

    82. Capella says:

      If there is an election soon, what will be the status of Michele Thompson and Natalie McGarry? Does anyone know how their long standing possibly inquiries are getting on?

    83. scottieDog says:

      @GrouseBeater
      Gabions were discussed on a permaculture course I did a while back. Mainly used in desert climates to trap and store water, preventing evaporation.
      Did the Romans do it for the same purpose?

    84. Capella says:

      Sorry, spelling, should be Michelle Thomson.

    85. Macbeda says:

      SNP must have been infiltrated if they are allowing such poorly briefed numpties to go on EBC.

      Message to SNP

      Get your fkin shit together and clear out the crap in the midst of your currently more than useless PR eejits.

      Get a spokesperson who knows and understands. Dont send in a feckin trainee, send in a SPOKESPERSON.

      Nicola cannot do it all on her own. FFS.

    86. K1 says:

      That’s why the BBC’s reputation is shit.

      Your’e welcome Dr Jim 🙂

    87. Capella says:

      Government lawyers tell the High Court that Article 50 won’t be triggered this year:
      http://archive.is/AUJOd

    88. Vambomarbeley says:

      Any Trident jobs lost pale into insignificance when compared to the North Sea jobs lost. Now around 120 thousand. Many highly skilled but not transferable skills. So pardon me if I don’t weep.
      I think Fanny May is a excellent title for her.

    89. Dr Jim says:

      @Macbeda

      There’s barely a handful between Holyrood and Westminster MPs and MSPs who are not forceful speakers but if you’re referring to Kirsten Oswald I outlined reasons for that earlier and actually if you’ve ever listened to Kirsten in the HOC youl’d see she’s no shrinking violet

      It’s a fairly easy thing to upset peoples speech patterns when you have your team script organised and the interviewee can’t catch every word but the radio listener can

      Plus the obvious truth is you can’t win them all when all of them is against you

      But sometimes being ganged up on increases your own support
      and the FM has used that one to her advantage on several occasions (The famous Gordon Brewer interview with four Yoons screeching not including him interupting and just the FM on her own)

    90. Macart says:

      Nato’s governing premise is mutual defence. You attack one member, you attack them all. It has nothing to do with how many members have nuclear weapons capability. Hell even PFP counts Russia amongst its members.

      So no, its not contradictory as a stance. If people don’t want to be a member of NATO, that’s peachy, but don’t conflate it with who has and who hasn’t got nuclear weapons. Base it on NATO conflicts or actions fine, but the point is the UN has a security council comprised of such powers. Does this mean we don’t intend to sign up to the UN charter in our own right and sending delegates?

      It doesn’t matter what corner of the globe you find yourself in, alignments will mean you are going to find yourself working alongside a nuclear power at some point. IMO all we are and can be responsible for is OUR choice to be either a positive nuclear free voice in the world or not. To add to the problem, or to become an example of a different path.

    91. Grouse Beater says:

      Scottie Dog: “Did the Romans do it for the same purpose?”

      It’s my understanding they were used by Romans originally as fortification – same principle as a ‘ward’, (hence the surname) also a Roman military fortification.

      Leonardo da Vinci designed a type of gabion called a Corbeille Leonard for the foundations of the San Marco Castle in Milan.

      The architect who introduced gabions into the UK as a construction material for contemporary designed homes – birds love them too for their homes – and walls of steel panels that have a patina of rust, is Ian Ritchie, still around with an illustrious practice and portfolio in London.

      In 1999 Ian designed and realised (with the new Housing Association) social housing in Glasgow’s East End. The project was monitored by Scottish Homes for the first three years of occupation.

    92. schrodingers cat says:

      i thought stus point about the moral argument against trident being moot was well made. as much as i dislike wars, conflict and weapons of all descriptions, there are better arguments against trident.

      1. maire black pointed out that trucks with nukes and nuke waste regularly drive through her constituency and while all out nuke war is extremely unlikely to happen, accidents on roads do happen, frequently and if protesters can get near enough to hold up the trucks on predestrian crossings, so can terrorists.

      2. even if you could build an artificial island in the middle of the atlantic to store such dangerous material, this would mitigate such a risk but still wouldnt support trident renewal.

      3. consider, what if china, russia or the usa (all have about 7000 nukes each) were to be attacked, say, eg dallas, shanghi or st petersburgh. because these countries are unified and have unified armed forces, under the command of one government and one military commander, all the other areas in these countries would reply.

      4. consider, what if china, russia or the usa launch a nuke at, say. the chech republic? would france retaliate?, i would argue they wouldnt or couldnt. this may sound like an argument for all eu countries to have nukes, and in a sense it is, but without being a united states of europe, with a united governement and a united armed forces, with a commander in control of launching any, some or all europes nukes, unified european action could not be assured.

      5. would the uk relaliate? some say that we could only do this with us permission, but i doubt thatcher would risk anialation in defence of the chech republic.

      6. would the us retaliate, i doubt it, but if it did and thatcher didnt want to, the russians and the chinese would have no idea whether subs launching nukes were uk or us. result, we would be targeted regardless.

      7. what if russia or china nuked london and edinburgh? with only one sub and 40 nukes, it could fire between 10 and 20 before being taken out. the air defences around major centres would ensure, moscow and beijing would be safe, what percentage could or would get through is unknown but 1 or 2 smaller unpronouncable cities in these countries, who most people couldnt find on a map, might be worth the risk. US retaliate would not be assured, detracters would argue that no matter how outraged us citizens were about what just happenned to the UK, what would be the point of the us commiting to mutally assured destruction over an unpopulated pile of rubble?

      result, trident makes us less safe. if our choice is to be turned to shadow or ruled by china or russia, I look forward to welcoming our new over lords.

      I may not be very brave but you’d be amazed at how smart I am!

    93. Robert Peffers says:

      @Woody says: 19 July, 2016 at 8:31 am:

      “Morals eh. Nice man that Stuart Campbell isn’t he.”

      Morals, Woody, I very much doubt you could define the term properly. And Yes that nice man Stuart Campbell is not only a nice man he is a stickler for the truth and he supports everything he claims with hard evidence. Which is far more than you have ever done on this forum.

      Which may explain why your present comment is nought but a baseless slur that you can offer nothing to support.

      We Scots, or more correctly,”The People of Scotland”, are generally well known to be a welcoming and tolerant people. We have a quite unique sense of humour that includes finding people such as you rather amusing.

      However, like that itch in the middle of your back, that you cannot quite reach, we tolerate and attempt to ignore.

      Consider yourself thus ignored from now on.

      Bye!

    94. harry mcaye says:

      heedtracker says:

      An independent Scotland being in NATO is a contradiction and Kirsten blustered her way through it and didn’t properly answer him

      That’s only acurate if you nuke nutters go around every other NATO country without a Trident WMD and tell them its “contradiction.” Pro Trident voters are very creepy indeed

      How many NATO member states have no nukes?

      Google says

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO

      28 NATO members, is it three have nukes, maybe four harry mcaye

      —-
      I’m sorry, are you actually calling me a “nuke nutter”. Behave! I was out this morning delivering some more WBB’s so don’t doubt my commitment to the cause. If I wasn’t a full time carer for my Dad, I would have joined the local Anti Trident gathering at the weekend.

      I am well aware of the status of most countries in NATO. I thought it was a relevant point made by McTernan and Adams, and I don’t like saying that believe me. It is something else that they can hold over us, why are we so against nukes but want an independent Scotland to be in NATO. If someone can clear that up for me I’d be grateful. I don’t have the time to read every post so maybe someone already has, I don’t claim to be in possession of all the facts and maybe there is something very obvious that I have overlooked. Any help gratefully received cos I sure as hell don’t like feeling that McTernan has got one over us.

    95. Robert Peffers says:

      @One_Scot says: 19 July, 2016 at 8:32 am:

      “It does beg the question, is there no limit to the amount of shit they can dump on Scotland.”

      Now look here, One Scot. Shit is a rather valuable commodity and until around the 1950s was the best and cheapest natural way to run a farm.

      Thing is that back then there were still large numbers of drought horses, such as Clydesdales, used as the working power of Scottish farms. We then had lots of high quality of shit getting spread all over rural Scotland.

      There was also a brisk market for shit in our villages, towns and cities most people in built up areas with gardens would purchase a load, or a half load, of well rotted manure annually. (It did wonders for the roses and the improvement in the onion and leek crops saw spectacular).

      With the exception of Lime, and sometimes Molasses for making silage, a farm could be almost self sufficient. The animal dung and the long stalks of straw from the cereal crops of the day that were used as animal bedding were ploughed back into the soil. This not only enriched the soil with nutrients but improved soil quality too.

      Perhaps our United Kingdom partners are attempting to assist us and trying to be kind to us with all that shit they send northwards.

      Don’t you believe that to be true, One Scot?

      Nah! Me neither.

    96. harry mcaye says:

      Dr Jim – Sorry but Kirsten was given plenty of time to come up with better answers than she gave. Macart’s post above was educational for me, (up until a few years ago I wasn’t engaged in politics so I may appear less schooled than many on here). I feel though that the SNP (I’m a member btw)could get someone on next time who could make a better argument and actually answer the question. I should say I have been impressed by Kirsten up till now but everyone can have an off day.

    97. Fred says:

      If we’ve learned nothing else from this Trident fiasco it’s that Onan Mundell our ditterin auld Secretary of State, is a fuckin disgrace!

    98. Stoker says:

      HAW PEFFERS, whit hiv ah telt yeh aboot playin wae strangers? Pitt it doon, yeh Dinny ken wurr its been!
      ?

      (Chuffed as! First post on a tablet! Took me 2-hours!)

    99. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bill says: 19 July, 2016 at 9:23 am:

      “Woody – We all know how this ends, Scotland will leave the union. There won’t be a GB. Get over it.”

      I love the post, Bill but one wee niggle. GB is, “Great Britain”, and it is a geographic term for the largest island of the archipelago of the British Isles.

      There are no other connotations inferred by the word, “Great”, in the term, “Great Britain”, than the relative size of the biggest island of the group. There is nothing else, “Great”, about it.

      The term as applied to places is common as in, “Great Cumbrae”, as the larger of the two Cumbraes

      ” … I spent 10yrs on nuclear submarines including Trident”.

      Were you MOD Civilian, Bill, or RN? I worked on them all too, from the old Dreadnought until I retired. I began in Yard Services in Rosyth Dockyard and then in the Dockyard’s Radar, Sonar and Radio workshop. Then did about 15 years in the RADIAC Lab working on all forms of radioactivity detecting equipment – both portable and ship/boat installed.

      “So, just as your side said get over it and accept the result, we ask you to do the same. Accept what we are doing, move out of the way and get over it.”

      That is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And that’s, “Woody”, telt by Bill, and I second it.

    100. Robert Peffers says:

      @harry mcaye says: 19 July, 2016 at 11:31 am:

      ” … An independent Scotland being in NATO is a contradiction”

      Absolute pish, Harry. There are 28 NATO Members States. However, if you read their official pages on-line they wrongly state there are 28 NATO Member Countries. Yet NATO seems either rather poorly educated or they are deliberate liars.

      They count the United Kingdom as a country. Not only is the United Kingdom not a country but it announces that fact to the entire World in its title of United KINGDOM the truth is there for all to see.

      Not only is it not a country but it contains some of the World’s oldest recognised countries such as Scotland, Wales and Ireland, (Well part of Ireland).

      Anyway, that is by the by. There are currently 28 NATO Member States of which only three are Nuclear Powers. These are The USA and France while the UK Hosts USA weapons. The avowed purpose of NATO is that if any member state is attacked by a non-NATO state the 28 member states will come to the attacked member’s aid.

      In every conflict that NATO has been involved in since WWII not one has seen the use of nuclear weapons. What is more every single member state has taken part at some time or other by sending conventional forces to the conflict.

      There simply is no hypocrisy in a NATO member state being anti-Nuclear. Here is the list of member states:-

      1 Albania

      2 Belgium

      3 Bulgaria

      4 Canada

      5 Croatia

      6 Czech Republic

      7 Denmark

      8 Estonia

      9 France

      10 Germany

      11 Greece

      12 Hungary

      13 Iceland

      14 Italy

      15 Latvia

      16 Lithuania

      17 Luxembourg

      18 Netherlands

      19 Norway

      20 Poland

      21 Portugal

      22 Romania

      23 Slovakia

      24 Slovenia

      25 Spain

      26 Turkey

      27 United Kingdom

      28 United States of America

      Now go do some research of your own and see how many on that list are anti-nuclear. Try starting with Canada and you will find this :-

      “Canada is a non-nuclear weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) and has never had a nuclear weapons program. During the Cold War, as a member of both the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), Canada hosted U.S. nuclear weapons on its soil and at its military bases in West Germany. These weapons were paired with four different delivery systems, two for NORAD and two for NATO. Between 1964 and 1971, NORAD deployed approximately 60 BOMARC surface-to-air guided missiles in Canada with 10 kiloton W40 warheads. [1] The second nuclear delivery system deployed in Canada was the Genie air-to-air missile. The Canadian CF-101 Voodoo interceptor aircraft could carry these missiles along with their 1.5 kiloton W25 warheads.

    101. Lochside says:

      KI and Scotspine…you are missing my point: we have to win over ‘no’ voters..many of whom are listening and watching the BBC. Yes I know 50% voted SNP etc. but we are not winning over enough people, fast enough!

      In a normal country with an open media, we would be independent by now. Unless our representatives i.e. the SNP don’t put their best up against snakes like McTernan, then why fucking well bother!

      All the points I’m making were made prior to the REF…which you may remember as G.A. Ponsonby pointed out was stolen by the BBC. What’s worse is that Fannie Mae looks as if she striving to emulate Thatcher as a ‘toughie’ which will unite English tories and Ukip against the remnants of Labour…Worse she might get some support up here from the people who only get the BBC’s narrative!

      We need to stop the bbc in its tracksdespite dodgy microphones and all the rest of that pish!

    102. carjamtic says:

      People vs Carmichael

      Target Reached 🙂

    103. harry mcaye says:

      Thanks Robert. I’ll let you off with the “pish” part!

      It would have been good if the SNP representative could have said something along these lines…

      “The avowed purpose of NATO is that if any member state is attacked by a non-NATO state the 28 member states will come to the attacked member’s aid.”

    104. DaveL says:

      http://en.ria.ru/europe/20160719/1043298716/scotland-trident-decommission.html

      Spin spin spinning…looks like we’d better keep them then…

    105. K1 says:

      I hear ye Lochside…and share your frustration…the tide is turning in our favour, I’m trying to stay positive and hopeful that the unravelling of the Labour party, the May promotion in England and the Trident debacle of a debate yesterday is providing enough of a jolt to those ‘soft noes’ on top of Engxit and all that that will entail too, to counter the ‘air power’ of the BBC et al in the run up to Indyref2.

      They are a shower of shite, on that we are agreed.

    106. Clydebuilt says:

      Here’s what Craig Murray has to say about Owen Smith…….. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/07/entirely-fake-owen-smith/

    107. defo says:

      galamcennalath sais

      “In a Scottish content, though, why now? They have no mandate here and we natives are already restless!”

      In no particular order…

      Brexit.
      Decisive posturing.
      Security Council permanent seat
      J. Corbyn attack opportunity.
      Drown in other recent unfavourable developments.
      Trying to get the world to stop laughing at them 🙂
      Expose Labour for what they are.
      Put us back in our place.
      Clear the way to allow for an early election, where the firm will try to get the ‘right’ answer this time on their Brexit folly ?

      Why NOT now ?

      —————————————————-
      The disappeared.

      I have a strong suspicion that more than a few harder No’s, the likes of Gray’s “Settlers and colonists” ,Tabatha and Charles frae the nu toon , sentient elements amongst ra peeple and the OO, the Great British brainwashed etc will abstain in the face of facts, unable to resist self interest maybe.

      Restless ? The natives can smell blood !

    108. defo says:

      I though the cult leader was supposed getting a breathalyser app to run BTL when the upgrade was done ?
      😉

    109. Fred says:

      Such a great pity that the nuclear submarine collision never happened at the week-end before the Trident debate. Fanny May is beginning to look lucky!



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