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The Victim

Posted on July 16, 2017 by

Deep in the summer news desert, the papers today are struggling for material again. The Sunday Herald has a shock-horror front-page exposé about some photos from an Orange Lodge party that turn out to be from 2010 and 2013, while the Scottish Mail On Sunday reaches all the way back to 1940 to fill a couple of pages.

But the Sunday Mail’s timing is even weirder.

Because the Mail has chosen a week when sectarian bigots in Northern Ireland burned effigies of Catholics, attached racist and homophobic banners to bonfires and hurled glass bottles at Celtic players to run this.

Whenever we’ve debated the overwhelmingly popular Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act with people who consider it the greatest affront to civil liberty ever committed by mankind, we always ask the same question and never get an answer:

“Who are the innocents whose lives you claim are being ruined by the Act?”

Nobody has ever been able to identify for us a single actual living human who has been subjected to any notable injustice by the Act, and if the Sunday Mail’s attempt today (we strongly recommend clicking the image above to enlarge and read the whole story) is the best anyone can come up with, we can understand why.

The Celtic-supporting student freely admits being guilty of the charge under which he was arrested: singing a song glorifying the IRA at a 2015 away game in Kilmarnock, apparently believing a tale of political slaughter in what’s now a foreign country 100 years ago to have some relevance to a Scottish football match.

Bizarrely the article doesn’t actually tell us whether his case ever came to court, but we do learn that he wasn’t convicted, and that being charged saw him undertake an anti-sectarianism workshop with community justice organisation Sacro, which led him to change his behaviour.

“By the end I was clear about what I’d done wrong and why. I won’t do it again.”

Sounds like a happy outcome, doesn’t it? Without the Act he’d never have been charged, never gone to the workshop, never learned what he’d done wrong and still be drunkenly bellowing sectarian hatred at bemused Kilmarnock fans now. But expressly because of the existence of the Act those things DID happen, he didn’t get a criminal record and his life (and everyone else’s) has only been affected positively.

The Mail’s strapline of “BIGOTRY CAN BE BEATEN WITHOUT LAWS”, then, sits above a story proving the exact opposite of that. It was ONLY because of the OBFA that “Paul” found himself confronting what he’d done and becoming a better person, at no discernible cost to himself. Everybody won.

The piece bemoaning that outcome tells us a lot more about the state of Scotland and its media in 2017 than we wish it did. These are dispiriting times.

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Wired of Hermiston

“The piece tells us a lot more about the state of Scotland and its media in 2017”

Nope. It tells us a lot more about the state of the Sunday Mail in 2017.

Robert Louis

The entire ‘scottish’ media and the British Labour party in Scotland oppose the obscene behaviour at football act, simply because it was introduced by the SNP.

It is that f******g ridiculous.

As pointed out above, the general public want the sectarianism and racist behaviour associated with football stopped. They overwhlemingly support the act, as do football fans, including those in the rangers and celtic.

No doubt if the act gets repealed, in a few months time, the very same self serving ‘scottish’ media and morons within the British Labour party in Scotland, will start bellowing that it is a disgrace that the Scottish Government has done nothing to stop this obscene behaviour at football matches. That is EXACTLY what led to the act in the first place – something conveniently forgotten by the so-called ‘scottish’ media.

Such is the moronic nonsense of the British Labour party in Scotland, and the anti SNP and anti Scotland ‘scottish’ media.

Why the greens support its repeal, is truly beyond me.

Robert J. Sutherland

Oh dear, here we go again. Reading the article, the poor put-upon fan still doesn’t seem to get it (and neither obviously does the Sunday Heil). “Paul” claims simultaneously that his career could have been wrecked because he broke this law, yet also claims that there are other laws under which he could have been convicted anyway!

Which all amounts to special pleading and an implied “I would have got away with this kind of thing before so why can’t I now?”

Which is the bottom line. If the available law had been properly enforced before, this kind of thing would be history by now. But no thanks to that stalwart idit Kelly, sectarianism is now finally being challenged. And high time too.

rigmac

Is that simply because it reduces “good” headlines for them and they have to create “good” headlines using it instead?

Must be some richt guid chanters among the upper echelons of Scottish media who are scunnered at not being able to partake in their traditional old sing alongs on a match day.

geeo

The media hate the OBFA because it has an effect on how they promote the Scottish game via hate and bigotry.

They have ALWAYS stirred up the religious angle because they know it sells copy.

It is no co-incidence the Daily Record is called “The Daily Ranger” AND “The Daily Rhebel” at the same time.

Street Andrew

I guess there’s a fear that if offensive behaviour is banned at football matches it could be the thin end of the wedge and then all manner of offensive behaviour would be outlawed.

This could seriously infringe the rights of the free press to make a living since offensive reporting is a significant aspect of their modus operandi.

It is one of the basic rights in a civilised country that we a press which is free (of responsibility). This would explain why the press is allowed to be self regulating.

joannie

Maybe I need one of these sectarian workshops too because I don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Unless it has different connotations when sung in Scotland than it does here its merely a song celebrating Irish independence.

Bob Mack

Bigotry can be beaten without laws. However, it requires a mindset where you question your own values as well as those around you. It is much easier and indeed safer, to follow those around you and slot into the mob mentality than to stand up for what you believe to be a “red line”.

It takes strength of character.

I follow fan forum and believe me, when anyone dares to question the values of the majority they are howled down in derision, and more often than not ,they simply fall back into a general concensus.

Unfortunately the ability to stand against bigotry in any form is the realm of the minority who contribute to discussion, which therefore makes it inevitable that for now laws are most definitely required to enforce or at least try to enforce an end to the hate, spite and malice that pervades the game up here in Scotland.

Whilst reading a Celtic forum I came across contributions from Celtic fans denouncing Rangers and Linfield fans reaction to the events at Windsor Park. Many of the contributions were as vitriolic and vile as those they were condemning. “To see ourselves as others see us” .

Camz

Old Firm games generally cause trouble, which make great paper fillers, which sell papers, which give politicians a reason to fill their days with ‘tut tut’ comments for the media. Circular wage maker.

It’s about money for little effort for a media with pre-written headlines, and politicians with pre-written speeches, and with much-practiced hand wringing.

(And some of them just revel in the trouble from a safe place)

They basically argue for the right to be bastards, while accusing the SNP of being that for trying to stop them.

Capella

Seems to bear out the old adage:
A Liberal is a Tory who’s been arrested.

By his reasoning, it would be unfair to arrest one or two shoplifters if they were in a group of a hundred all stealing at once.

Suddenly, alternatives to a custodial sentence and a criminal record are paramount. I wonder which branch of law he intends to practice.

Dr Jim

The trouble with being intolerant about intolerance is nobody seems to want to tolerate it and would rather defend the indefensible by making inaudible nonsensical gutteral gruntings at maximum volume

Everybody Shuuut Uuup and leave things Alooonnne Stoap chaaangin things Damn SNP makin things better, don’t wannit

Noo whaur did ah put my pigeon hat I musta left in oan the supporters bus

Liz g

It’s insane to repeal this law.
For good or ill it’s there now…. everyone knows it’s there,and how to avoid breaking it.

To repeal it, is to all intents and purposes declaring that we (society/government) were, wrong to address this issue and that this behaviour ….on second thoughts…is perfectly legal after all.
Now that can’t be right…can it?

I would actually personally like to see the law in Scotland go much farther.
With a view to addressing the behaviour at the time,and,en mass.
But without clogging up the justice system and costing “the people” any money.

The aim of the law should be to cost “Ra people and the Bhoys” time and money.
The new law’s could be created and be creative in and around the game.

EG…A mandatory 3 minutes or longer stoppage, signalled by the authority of the match commander when these songs are heard!
Apart from disrupting the flow of the game for everyone….it could really mess with transport if linked to a significant wating over time charges for the buses.
A charge that will need to be picked up by the traveling fan’s.
Also to prevent (if it’s a concern) this behaviour being used to stop the play to influence the results.
Mibbi a two strikes and is a goal for the other side policy?
Something like that could cost a club a title and the revenue that goes with it.

The aim of this ?…..To “encourage”the club’s to do more,and to get the fan’s to self censure.
Not forgetting helping to prevent those ” poor poor innocent ” fan’s getting a criminal record,by breaking the law that we weren’t stupid enough to remove in the first place.

A clear signal from the Scottish electorate through their government….Up with this we will not put!

Andy-B

The murder, fitba, papers the Daily Record and the Sunday Mail, are firmly opposed to any progress being made in Scotland, whether it be against sectarianism or independence.

Or just about anything else that upsets the status quo.

gordoz

Spot on piece again Rev Stu.

Sick to the back teeth of all bigotry. So embarrassed by all of it. Detest idiots like Labours James Kelly; no more than an opportunist numpty. Cant get my head around old firm fans ‘United’ attempts to bin this legislation, wreckless madness of the highest order.
Was a fan of the old firm once and thought they were emerging from the swamp and evolving towards more normalized tribal rivalry traditions; it will never happen whilst remaining part of this discredited ‘Unionist’ political construct called GB.

Rangers and the Orange connection are by far the worst in my opinion but plenty of idiots on the Celtic side also.
Would be delighted to see the back of both for the sake of our football in the long run. (Never thought I’d write that in the past). Grow up folks and support your local team.

The North British Media really is an irresponsible industry in its entirety. Only a handful (at most) of decent writers & commentators, the rest hacks of the worst sensationalist order, with only a juvenile sense of care for the readers.

Binning this legislation would be real folly and cuddling right up to true blue Brexit ideology. Typical Daily Record & Sunday Mail. Never finish David Clegg’s guff.

[…] Wings Over Scotland The Victim Deep in the summer news desert, the papers today are struggling for material again. […]

colin alexander

@Joannie:

I think it’s because of these lyrics:

“When, being just a boy like you,
I joined the I.R.A”.

It’s the other side of the coin of the Famine Song and the Billy Boys.

They have nothing to do with fitba’.

Joemcg

The Sunday Herald front page story about the ludges fancy dress proclivities is even more eyebrow raising. Truly shocking but not entirely surprising concerning these cretins.

heedtracker

Its really just one more SNP bad weapon, in the BBC led UK media arsenal. Their endless war on Scottish democracy, well not endless, it’s going to end eventually.

Wonder how:D

G. Campbell

Cat Boyd, the radical Scottish left’s most talented rapper*, revealed on Sunday Politics Scotland that she voted for Jeremy Corbyn at the general election. Annoyingly, I’ve no idea what constituency she lives in so I can’t tell you whether she managed to get a “narrow-minded careerist” elected or not.

Cat Boyd: Jeremy Corbyn has my spiritual vote, but he simply cannot win this election
23rd May 2017

IF we were electing a president next month, US-style, I’d make my vote without a second thought. Jeremy Corbyn is the only Westminster party leader who remotely represents progress, and if I could elect him personally I’d be dancing all the way to the polling station.

But technically I’m not electing a Prime Minister, in the way one would elect a president. And, likely, I would end up using my constituency vote for a narrow-minded careerist who will use every opportunity to plot against Corbyn regardless of the country’s or the Labour Party’s democratic wishes. Likely, I’d be electing another Ian Murray, and, if you’ll forgive the expression, with MPs like these, who needs enemies?

Some problems aren’t anything to do with Corbyn, but instead represent British institutions he can’t shift despite his best efforts. Take Trident. Nobody can question his commitment to the issue. But the media establishment, and the Labour establishment, are committed British nationalists who want a Security Council seat on the cheap.

link to thenational.scot

* No harm meant to Loki, btw, who also voted for the hard brexit, pro-Trident Labour party, and can’t rap for toffee either.

Peter. Edinburgh

Colin Alexandra. You do realise the IRA in that line is the same IRA the Queen honoured a few years ago in Dublin? It seems the utter ignorance around this issue is still there.

Remember, the OBAF Act is nothing to do with sectarianism. It is, as admitted by Christine Graham, when Convener of the Justice Committee, all about ‘evening things up’.

And whilst the SNP government continue to allow Orange marches, then any suggestion that they wish to tackle sectarianism in this country, is taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Ken500

‘Paul’ go off scotfree and didn’t destroy his Law degree. After breaking the Law. Just like thon Findlay for singing racist songs. Ruining the Scottish economy on a weekly basis. Costing taxpayers £Billions of wasted monies. Unlawful criminal behaviour supporting illegally bigotry and hatred. What has sport got to do with it? Private Sports clubs totally in debt after appalling mismanagement. Expecting public money to bail them out. Illegally getting public money to bail them out. Total hypocrites. They expect public sympathy. Unlikely. Mucking up the majority lives and causing inconvenience. An affront to others,

The Police guarding racist, hooligan bigots every week. Instead of objecting to the illegal behaviour and objecting to the Marches. Complaining they have not got enough public money. Banned in most of Scotland. A bigoted, racist malicious, unequal, secret society taking over the streets every other week. Ruining the Scottish economy. Tax evaders and wasters not paying their taxes but being supported by £Billions of public money for Unionist votes at Westminster. All totally illegal. Westminster Unionists once again breaking the Law. Not supporting the society or community.

The troll CA has been on the Herald defending the imcompetent, useless Tories. Another Tory liar.

ClanDonald

What really sickens me is that as soon as this legislation is overturned, not only will behaviour at football matches become instantly more offensive but the media won’t report any of it. They’ll have to pretend everything is hunky-dory or else admit that their efforts to overturn it have increased bigotry, vandalism and violence.

Poor Rev will now have to do a weekly round-up so we can be properly informed.

gus1940

Rather than campaigning to repeal the OBFA would it not be better if The Branch Office’s PoliticaL Fireball James Kelly came up with amendments to the act to cure what he sees as its defects.

Or does he not see any problems with crowd behaviour at football matches?

Of course as must be obvious to any sentient being his agenda is just the usual Labour SNPbad nonsense.

Ronnie

Hailing from the northeast, the whole sectarian thing is completely baffling. Is this really still going on in 2017?

Robert Peffers

@joannie says:16 July, 2017 at 12:13 pm:

“Maybe I need one of these sectarian workshops too because I don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Unless it has different connotations when sung in Scotland than it does here its merely a song celebrating Irish independence.”

The song is about the IRA, Joannie and here is the official version of the lyrics – do you, perhaps, think this is the version sung by the Celtic fans?

In any case, before Ireland was partitioned, the fighting was civil war and both sides were parts of the United Kingdom. Then came, “The Irish Free State”, which was legally a United Kingdom Dominion and thus still part of the United Kingdom.

Since the Irish Free State declared UDI and became a Republic then the IRA were fighting in Northern Ireland and that makes them terrorists.

Now none of that justifies the UKs armed forces going far beyond what reasonable people would call, “Peace Keeping”, and in both cases the celebration of past violence and killing cannot be justified.

One group of football supporters glorifying the killing of Catholics at the Battle of the Boyne and the Other glorifying the killing o,f not just Protestants but also any innocent non-religious members of the public who happened to be in the way makes neither football team’s supporters any better than the other’s.

Not to mention that these two teams are Irish playing in the Scottish Leagues. Berwick Rangers are an English team that plays in the Scottish leagues but you don’t hear them singing about killing the Scots at Culloden do you?

“Oh father why are you so sad
on this bright easter morn
when Irishmen are proud and glad
of the land where they were born
Oh son I see sad memories
of far off distant days
when being just a lad like you
I joined the IRA !

Where are the lads who stood with me
when histoy was made
Ó grá mo chroí, I long to see
The boys of the old brigade

From hills and farms the call to arms
was heard by one and all
and from the glens came brave young men
to answer Ireland’s call
twas long ago we faced the foe
the old brigade and me
by my side they fought and died
that Ireland might be free

Where are the lads who stood with me
when histoy was made
Ó grá mo chroí, I long to see
The boys of the old brigade

and now my boy I’ve told you why
on easter morn I sigh
for I recall my comrades all
from the dark old days gone by
I think of men who fought in glens
with rifles and grenade
may heaven keep the men who sleep
from the ranks of the old brigade “

Ken500

The great Independenitas EU supporter votes for Corbyn, but expects to be taken seriously. The Party of illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion, Trident, causing the migration crisis in Europe and ruining the world economy. Voting through or abstaining every Tory policies in Westminster when they could have brought the Tories down.

The Offensive Football Act was taken in by Kenny McAskill and ? Cunningham to protect Catholics from aggression. After the Lennon/McCoist bust up. The boot is on the other foot.

The Police have powers they could use if there was is a need. Instead of protecting Orange Marches and abuse of the public.

JLT

In some ways, we knew this was coming. Many of us highlighted it over the last 3 or 4 years that eventually, Scotland would fall into 2 camps – nationalist and unionist …and it is no surprise that the media bang out the ‘British’ ideology on a daily basis. But as said …we knew this was coming, and no we are right in the heart of it. How it will all pan out over the next few years is still up for debate. But the Westminster political Establishment are definitely throwing the kitchen sink at us at the moment.

Theresa May’s deal with the DUP actually shows us just how far that (a) how desperate the British State is getting if it is getting into bed with those deluded far-right wing lunatics, and (b) that it has lost a tremendous amount of influence in Scotland that it has to go to levels of televising Orange Walks on the BBC as well as trying to make all things surrounding Orange traditions as though they were just a form of normality.

Simply, they are not, and I got an example of it last Saturday.

I was out on a works do last weekend (someone leaving the company), and amongst our contingent was a member of staff who has been a strong advocate of the ‘Remain’ side back in 2014. Inevitably, our paths crossed and the old debates arose once more. Having highlighted that since 2014, that every Unionist argument had been shown up to be a lie or a broken promise, the argument came to a resounding and startling stop when he exclaimed ‘I’m a Scottish Protestant!’

To which I replied, ‘Aye, and so am I …so what? What’s that got to do with what we were discussing?’

His answer was ‘Well, you ken what I’m talking about. Simply put, I’m not changing my ways; it’s as simple as that.’

And there you have it. Scottish political debate summed up in 4 words – ‘I’m a Scottish Protestant!’. When pushed on it, he confirmed that he likes the Orange Order.

Deciding to cut to the heart of it and end this nonsense once and for all, I asked one simple question – ‘Mate …that being the case, one simple question and please answer it because I’m curious …has the Orange Order benefitted your life in any way, shape or form? Tell me one positive thing that the Orange Order has done for you …personally. Has it benefitted you …yes or no? Answer the question’.

The conversation literally ended at that point. Apart from a telling look in the eyes that answered that question for me, I was then told ‘Jamesie, get tae f***. Dinnae f****** start. Ah’m no answering ye, but aye it has’.

Knowing I had him, I badgered him further on it by asking him to answer the question and how it had benefitted him, but all I got was more denial to the question with no answers. But that question had rattled him, and I knew it had provoked him to question his own outlook. And even though he knows the answer deep down, he will also deep down never change.

This is one of the 30% of Scots who will never advocate independence or deny the Union …no matter how much his outlook is poisoned by it. He’s one of those that no matter how much you drag him into the light, they scurry back off into the darkness where ignorance is like a comfort blanket. In his eyes, the blame is elsewhere. Its better to target other people of different faiths, colour, alternative politics and even enlightenment …than admit that all the problems that seem to antagonise and infuriate him …are actually solely down to himself and a Union that endorses and promotes sectarianism, division, lies and apathy.

That’s one of the real legacies of this Union that we all live under.

heedtracker

I don’t get how he was police ID’d out of a crowd of 4000, he says. If the Mail creeps have left out how this one man was known to the police like this, or at least someone next to or nearby him in the crowd, there’s something very not right about this.

But it is the Mail reprobates so who knows.

gus1940

RE the Dunkirk story and the impending deluge of stiff upper lip triumphalism about a humiliating defeat I posted a comment a couple of weeks ago questioning the necessity of evacuation.

I suggested that as they had the capability of evacuating 300k plus was it not possible that the same resources used to carry out the evacuation could have with the overwhelming superiority of The RN over The Kriegsmarine established an effective defensive perimeter around Dunkirk together with reinforcing and supplying it.

The evacuation freed the German forces involved to fight The French Army and hastened the French collapse.

Without these extra divisions France may have been able to fight on.

In my post I questioned why nobody seems to have ever suggested that the evacuation could have been avoided and asked if anybody had views on my suggestion.

However, nobody commented other than several comments regarding the disgraceful sacrifice of The 51st. Highland Division at St. Valery.

I would like to know if anybody shares my thoughts re examining the possible avoidance of the ‘triumphant’ evacuation.

As the abandonment of Churchill’s disastrous Norway campaign coincided with the start of the German offensive on May 10th where were the forces evacuated from Norway at the time of Dunkirk? – were they still in The UK or had they been rushed to Belgium/France.

Clootie

…the problem is the failure by all sides to see that this behaviour is wrong. Why is it always the other side and not us. Why do people think that a criminal act should not be given to “them”.
It reminds me of all those good humoured jokes against woman and ethnic groups in the 70s…what harm did that cause??

Al Dossary

@Gus1940,

Completely agree with the sentiment. The OBAF whilst not perfect, is better than what existed previously. Agree to amend it with the numbskulls propsing changes. The problem is that these neanderthals will vote on party lines, as always just to defeat the SNP.

Kelly is just playing to his audience. Ruthie baby will be forced to do the same now that she has the support of the LOL. Ruthie now has to keep happy her combination of supporters – the small “c” elderly voters, the traditional “I’m all right” jacks with the big “C” and now the LOL’ers with the “Union at all costs” mantra.

The act has majority support amongst the OF supporters, and overwhelming support amongst supporters of every other club in the country. Ironically, it is these “other” supporters who suffer disproportionately at the hands of the police.

The police historically think nothing of wading into a small crowd of one of the provincial clubs away from home yet are reluctant to do it to either of the big 2.

Ibrox / Parkhead are the only 2 grounds in the Scottish League which I refuse point blank to visit – Solely down to the way that visiting fans are treated and the attitude of some of their supporters towards us. It has been that way since the Fergus McCann years and will be for the foreseeable future.

Robert Peffers

@Liz g says: 16 July, 2017 at 12:47 pm:

” … I would actually personally like to see the law in Scotland go much farther.”

Aye! Liz g, me too. I used to enjoy a football match. I have a suggestion to make :-

If, instead of banning the offenders from attending matches the courts forced them, at the offenders expense obviously, to attend the opposing teams games for the same period of time they would have been banned from watching their favoured team. Of course excepting the games involving their favoured team.

I believe that would be more effective as getting banned from watching their favourites makes them martyrs in the eyes of their fellow supporters.

Mind you it could be worse if the courts forced them to wear their favoured teams colours at those matches. It sure as hell would impress upon them the effects of sectarianism on their opposite numbers.

colin alexander

@Peter. Edinburgh

I accept it seems to refer to the IRA of the Easter uprising in 1916, not the Provisional IRA of the modern era.

However, I see no place for songs about taking up “rifle and grenade” at a football match.

I’ve no comment to make on who HM Queen chooses to honour, as I never voted her head of state. Nor did I agree with the Scot Govt presumption that Scotland would have her as head of state if Scotland had voted YES in 2014.

Where and when it’s sung matters too. Fitba should be for fitba songs:

eg “it’s a grand auld team to play for..”

and

“He says to me: are you going to see the famous Glasow Rangers”.

Dr Jim

If you stood outside your neighbours house and sung about wanting him dead and bathed in his own blood whilst chanting about how his particular version of his religion offended you the cops would be along in jig time to carry you away on breach of the peace and basic nut job charges
Of course if he happened to be a Muslim, racist offences too

Yet if you do it in an organised fashion and rules based gang wearing the correct attire it’s perfectly OK

Is that what they mean when they say blind justice, or do they actually mean blind to justice

We pay the BBC to allow James Kelly to verbally assault us and mentally assault us and then stand up in my parliament and do it all over again,,,, but if I stood outside his house….Ye see?

Justice?

Robert Peffers

@Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 1:09 pm:

” … And whilst the SNP government continue to allow Orange marches, then any suggestion that they wish to tackle sectarianism in this country, is taken with a huge pinch of salt.”

Utter anti-SNP/Scottish/Independence pish!

Dan Huil

Britnats are desperate to encourage sectarianism in Scotland. Anything that harms Scotland is encouraged by britnats.

Highland Wifie

Replace singing offensive song at football match for using a mobile phone whilst driving in the following:-
“The police film fans with handheld cameras all the time but to pick me and a couple of others out of a crowd of thousands doing the same thing didn’t feel like justice to me. It felt random like bad luck.”
It’s called the criminal justice system and it exists partly in order to try to change negative behaviour that impacts on the lives of others.

Glamaig

@gus1940
dont know but 1. they were defeated and demoralised, Ive read a good account by soldiers on the ground but cant find it now 2. German air superiority might have been a factor – the RAF didnt have enough range to give consistent air cover and they were worried about having enough planes to defend the UK.

george wood

heedtracker says:
16 July, 2017 at 1:36 pm

“I don’t get how he was police ID’d out of a crowd of 4000, he says. If the Mail creeps have left out how this one man was known to the police like this, or at least someone next to or nearby him in the crowd, there’s something very not right about this.

But it is the Mail reprobates so who knows.”

He says he was sitting beside the “Green Brigade”, who, as I understand it, start off a lot of the singing. They want to link supporting Celtic with Ireland’s Independence and the troubles.
I suspect, he got filmed starting off some of the chants and that’s why he was singled out.

Vronsky

I can’t find any fault in ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ that I couldn’t find in any Scottish Jacobite song. I’m also uneasy about the criminalisation of offensive behaviour. There are very serious issues of freedom of speech here, as we are all offensive from time to time. But in whose opinion are we offensive? Should we take #scotref off the table because it offends so many people?

I fully understand that the lobbying against the OBFM is nothing more than another hopeful attempt by the British state to damage the SNP and the independence movement, similar to the concerted attack on Named Person legislation. I know that Unionists don’t give a fuck about freedom of speech or the protection of children, they are just usefully emotive attack lines.

But however cognisant of that we might be, it doesn’t mean that we should mindlessly defend poorly framed or (in the case of OBFM) redundant legislation. It is possible to appreciate the decency of intention but still criticise the implementation.

I was a bit disturbed by the story that the singer repented after therapy, and will never again sing ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’. It reminded me too much of Clockwork Orange.

comment image

Peter. Edinburgh

Colin Alexander. I take your point about that particular song being sung at a football game in Scotland. I don’t sing it at a football game, although I know it. But it shouldn’t be illegal to sing it as it is neither offensive nor sectarian.

Robert Peffers. Aye, very good.

meg merrilees

To me, the absolutely most shocking aspect of this man’s tale is the fact that he was in the final year of a Law degree and HE can’t understand that he has done anything wrong!!!!!
it took an anti-sectarian workshop to make him see the error of his ways.
Maybe he deserved that conviction!

So in his final exam, if there was a theoretical question describing the situation he found himself in, he would have declared the suspect completely innocent.
Some lawyer!

Would that have been marked as a pass or a fail?

Is it that perhaps sectarianism isn’t being debated in the syllabus for a Scots law degree?

We understand and reject racism, sexism and homophobic stances but why did he not know in advance that he was spreading this cancerous sectarianism???

It’s all part of spreading hatred and intolerance and there is no place for any of that in modern Scotland, the country I want to live in.

Macart

The meeja and their bestest buds. Never let ethics or public safety get in the way of the next assault on the SNP.

Wonder if they’re aware in any way that these actions are precisely why they unfit for purpose?

Highland Wifie

Vronsky says
“I can’t find any fault in ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ that I couldn’t find in any Scottish Jacobite song’

Any class teacher will tell you that context is everything when judging the behaviour of others.
If it is done to inflame hatred or to provoke violence then it is wrong pure and simple.

People who shout about freedom of speech sometimes forget that it comes with responsibilities.

Juan P

The proposed repeal of this legislation is naked political opportunism.

No British nationalist politician, as far as I’m aware, has called on the UK government to repeal equivalent legislation created by Westminster which criminalises the glorification of terrorist organisations and which has been in existence for significantly longer than the OBAF.

The fact that the Act creates a statutory offence in relation to behaviour which may be captured by existing common law offences is hardly an argument for repeal. There are countless statutory offences which replicate, in part or in whole, existing common law offences and legislated for by both UK and Scottish Governments.

When push comes to shove there is no obvious and justifiable reason why the legislation requires to be repealed.

yesindyref2

@G. Campbell
Yes, Cat Boyd had an article in the National 2 or 3 weeks back, and it was quite clear from that she probably voted Labour. There will have been a lot of others.

I can’t “blame” them, as he is a ray of hope to those on the left and I’d have greatly preferred him as PM, even if it slowed down Indy a bit. But it was clear that most constituencies a vote for Labour was wasted.

Personally I thought the SNP and Labour should have done a bit of cross-tactical voting, to keep out the autocratic Tories, instead of slagging each other off. There could esaily have been 7 less Tories, and away goes the majority.

Liz g

Robert Peffers @ 1.52
An interesting proposition Robert..

Also….How about getting Glasgow City Council to remove the right of both these club’s to be called GLASGOW anything?

They both fly the flags and chant the politics and folklore of other countries!

And before anyone says anything, the Union flag is not a Scottish flag.
There’s even a song about that too….

{There always be an England… apparently this is what the red white and BLUE should mean to you!}

But seriously the Union flag is exactly that the flag of the Union..no Scotland,and football teams don’t play as a Union.
So what is that flag doing there?

Don’t get me started on the other one….we are no even on the same island….and the Union we are in with the Irish is the EU….so while the colour is a bit closer, even that flag’s no Scottish.
Patient the name Glasgow and keep it from both those embarrassments of a sports club!

Time better spent at the moment than banning Kultural marches, because that’s a thread that doesn’t need pulled.
Unless ye wouldn’t mind a bit of bother.
Jist mind that after a yes vote there is NAE Union.
They hiv nae Church in Scotland that will claim them (as far as I know).
The battle’s no a Scottish wan.
In short nothing but “because we have always done it” to actually march for.
After a few years they marches will become as much a part of Scotland as Morris Dancing is in England.
Our own culture and commemorations will be front and center of what fills our streets
Not whatever the hell played out between England and Ireland 4 bloody centuries ago.

Walking on Sunshine

According to Wikipedia the song is about the Irish fighting the British in their quest for independence.

According to Wikipedia ‘The Boys of the Old Brigade’ is an Irish republican folk song written by Paddy McGuigan about the Irish Republican Army and the Irish War of Independence, (1919-1921), and the anniversary of the 1916 Easter Rising.

In 2008, UEFA abandoned an investigation into Celtic supporters singing the ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ due to lack of evidence.

I accept that singing songs about Irish independence (or any country’s independence) at a Friday night football match in Kilmarnock is inappropriate, but a breach of the peace charge would be sufficient in this case.

yesindyref2

I’ve never had a view on the OFBA, but as for the song about the Easter rising, here’s two verses sung at football / rugby matches:

“O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward’s army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again”

and

“O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On thee our hopes we fix:
God save the Queen. “

Highland Wifie

@Vronsky

So let’s find something better!
First job after independence?

Jack Collatin

The solution is simple. When these knuckle draggers start singing their songs of hate, the broadcaster should stop broadcasting the match, and a simple message appear on the screen explaining why the transmission has been interrupted, and that they would resume the programme when the evil chanting abated.
This fictitious ‘case study’ of Paul the Proddy University educated future lawyer who supports the Sellick and got caught up innocently in a crowd of drunken bums at an away match at Kilmarnock was written by Kelly or some zealous lackey back at Project SNP BAD HQ.
It has the fingerprints of Roden of the Mail all over it.
The Sunday Mail is a rag of the first order now.
How many times will they publish photies of Griffiths advertising Buckfast the bevvy of choice of the thug, hooligan and all round fascist bigot?
The Dead Tree Scrolls in Scotland now sell tomorrow’s toilet paper. They have trawled the sewers of Scotland and glorify gangsters, murderers, fascists, and evil bigots, and take every opportunity to plant photies of political failures, and all round Gravy Train trash like James Kelly at every opportunity.
Kelly and the rest of the Unionist rag bag are out to destabilise parliamentary business in Scotland. Nobody gives a fuck what Kelly, WATP Tomkins, and Murdo The Queen’s Eleven Fraser, three unelected Hangers On, think, except the Dead Tree Scrolls and the scribe whores who churn out this garbage.
Nicola Sturgeon was in Europe this week doing the ‘day job’, protecting Scottish citizens rights, and making sure our voice is being heard despite Dugdale Rennie and Davidson ignoring the political will of the people, and selling us out to England and the London Establishment.
This snivelling little wimp is a despicable wee toerag, darling of the Gutter Blahs and BBC.
The OBF law is a good law if it only gets on Kelly’s tits, if you ask me.

Vronsky

“So let’s find something better! First job after independence?”

Very much with you on that. My suggestion is always ‘A man’s a man’. The (late) poet Tom Buchan advocated it because it was ‘national, but also international’.

Peter. Edinburgh

Liz g. Celtic do not have Glasgow in their name! Again, the ignorance of people making comments on this issue.

Peter. Edinburgh

Remember, the OBFA is not about sectarianism. It isn’t about Celtic. It isn’t about Rangers. The OBFA has seen young Hamilton fans arrested and charged for singing a song about Motherwell. Fans from a number of different clubs have been arrested and charged under this Act. I have seen protests from fans from Hibs and Dundee.

crazycat

@ Jack Collatin

When Meg merrilees commented that it was disturbing that a final year law student had to go on a course to find out tht he had been doing something illegal, my first thought was that we had no evidence this person actually existed – his identity was being “protected” by calling him only Paul.

Liz g

Yesindyref2 @ 3.00
You are correct….both those tuneless wonder’s could at certain football games be considered antagonist to the point of causing offence.
But we both know that is no what the act was designed to address
It is at the very heart of the concept freedom of speech, I would have said.
IE…. Freedom of speech doesn’t include the right to shout fire in an empty room…
In other words it’s a judgement call about there being a time and a place to express your self.
The act specifically says AT football and that’s what makes all the difference.
Firstly because that’s where this problem manifests itself, to the point that the government needed to act!
And Secondly outside of the footballing environment all rights and freedoms have not been affected at all,they are the same as they ever were.

I would also point out that the two songs that you gave as an example….. do have a bit to with Scotland…..
We are talking here of songs that originated from the English and the Irish having a stooshie a fair few year’s before we were in a TREATY agreement with England…. so therefore has very little to do with us.
Unless you buy the establishment line that Scots should fight each other over it.
It was the English Crown that two Prince’s were actually fighting over no?

Proud Cybernat

@ JLT 1:34pm

Absolute belter of a post. And so bang on the money. Well said and good for you in challenging your sectarian pal with those soul searching questions.

colin alexander

Did the anonymous “Paul” sing again when in the Polis station:

Let us sing a prisoners anthem. Let it echo through the cells. Along the halls and the landing. Let our hearts and voices swell?

yesindyref2

@Liz g
Absolutely.

Yes, if BPC had stopped at the border things might be very different!

Effijy

Why is there any debate on here about Sectarian singing?

Yes the Protestants did well in holding out against the Catholics over 300 years ago, and yes the Republican’s own army did incredibly well to defeat the Protestant Westminster invaders some 100 years ago.

Surely we are all happy to see these event confined to the history books and we all want to work together to build a fair and just society for future generations.

If you want sign at football matches or in Pubs, sings songs about your team, not wars, hate and killing.

Pick something from Abba or Elvis and cheer yourselves up.

Peter. Edinburgh

Liz g. Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of this issue. The Act is not about being AT football. It does not restrict itself to an incident AT football.

Alwyn ap Huw

It would be interesting to know what percentage of those who are so passionately sectarian in a Saturday afternoon football match support their sects where it counts, in church on a Sunday morning.

Jockanese Wind Talker

Divide and Conquer is the way the British Establishment work to maintain their grip on power and wealth.

Sectarianism is a Divide and Conquer tool of the British Establishment.

This is why they want the repeal of the OBFA.

This is the reason ‘Rangers’ couldn’t be allowed to fail (how can you foster division if there is only one side?)

If you make Sectarianism as socially unacceptable as racism or domestic violence you remove a tool from the British Establishments ‘box of tricks’

Another day of SNP BAD, in the same vein as the Named Person ‘outrage’ from Right Wing, flat earth home schoolers so joyously pushed by Liz Smith and the MSM/BBC.

Those who would vote for repealing the OBFA rather than amending it give one message and one message alone.

I, “Insert Name”, Member of the “Insert Name of Political Party” and Member of the Scottish Parliament, support Offensive Behaviour at Football including the singing of songs glorifying murder due to different religious beliefs and any Violence caused as a result of this behaviour at or following these football matches.

Peter. Edinburgh

Effijy. Is there any debate about sectarian songs? Is anyone defending sectarian songs? I am certainly not.

Peter. Edinburgh

Alwyn ap Huw. Once again, this Act is not about sectarianism.

Jockanese Wind Talker

Remember “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.”

Audre Lorde 1934-1992

Unionist Politicians in Scotland will never bring about any genuine change.

Because the British Establishment does not want any.

Liz g

Peter Edinburgh @ 3.33
Again your arrogance that only those with some sort of detailed knowledge of these two clubs and their issues,that meet your imaginary standards can comment with any creditability is breathtaking sir!
They are referenced as Glasgow team’s are they no?
If that’s no self referencing by the club themselves doesn’t really matter for the purpose of Glasgow disowning both of them now does it.
Nobody surely, has to find these two clubs and their “issues” with what they are as part of the entertainment industry actually for,remotely interesting.
To comment on how they impact society,as I am sure you can agree.
I have previously indicated on other threads that I know absolutely nothing about football it’s self.
And I am unlikely to change that while there is still wet paint in the world.
My comments are based on being a grown up, discussing a”Game”,a game that to be perfectly honest,if I was helping to fund the violence and everything else that the fan’s help to pay for,I would find another Game.

joannie

@Rev Stu, Colin Alexander and Robert Pfeffers – I’m sorry I still don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Its a song about the old IRA who fought for Irish independence and were no more terrorists than George Washington’s men. There is nothing sectarian or hateful about the lyrics and while it may not be an appropriate song for a football match, that shouldn’t be a police matter.

As far as the bigger picture is concerned, I agree with keeping the OBFA and suspect those pushing to repeal it of having sinister motives. I just don’t think that particular song should be covered by it.

colin alexander

I think it would be helpful to set the OBFA in a context:

It has been designed to try and tackle sectarianism, bigotry, whatever you want to call it.

There was pressure to be seen to be doing something about this cancer in Scottish society.

Nil By Mouth (referred to in the article) was set up to educate people to try and reduce sectarianism and bigotry following the brutal and unprovoked murder of a young innocent Celtic supporter called Mark Scott in Brigton, Glasgow in 1995. All he was doing was walking home from a Celtic game.

yesindyref2

I was really into folk music years ago, both modern and trad, it’s both history and future, a force for change at times, and have an album of the Dubliners for instance, with this one a favourite “Four Green Fields”. The question is – should this one be banned as well?

There’s a lot of purely judgement calls involved in this, and that’s a problem.

Liz g

Peter Edinburgh @ 4.04
It’s no the offending Behaviour at the dug show Peter noo is it ?

Peter. Edinburgh

Liz g. It isn’t arrogance to hope someone has some knowledge of the issue they are discussing.

And yes, if you are on your way to a football match, then there may be an issue at the dug show.

colin alexander

@ Peter. Edinburgh

” LORD ADVOCATE’S GUIDELINES ON THE OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOUR
AT FOOTBALL AND THREATENING COMMUNICATIONS (SCOTLAND)
ACT 2012
Purpose
The objective of the offences provided for in this Act is to tackle sectarian hatred and other offensive and threatening behaviour related to football matches and to prevent the communication of threatening material,
particularly where it incites religious hatred. The primary but not sole
motivation for the offences concerns football. “

Peter. Edinburgh

Colin Alexander. There was legislation that could deal with sectarianism or bigotry. This Act wasn’t required. And, as I have pointed out before, the words sectarian and sectarianism do not appear in the Act.

Nil By Mouth was set up with the best intentions. Unfortunately Nil By Mouth have created more problems. Nil By Mouth consider the words ‘hun’ and ‘tim’ to be sectarian references.

Liz g

Yesindyref2 @ 4.26
No song’s should be banned.
And I don’t think that any are, it’s the time and a place thing….
And the what’s appropriate at a certain point in history,we (Scotland) seem to not to want to tolerate the sectarianism that this act “”isn’t””about any way …any more,and support our government in the steps they have taken so far.
As is our right.
Many things are unacceptable now that used to be fine not that long ago.
But as Jockanesewindtalker farther up said this is one of the master’s tools,so there will be push back.
As for our rights well em..
Bringing your Government within slapping distance…is it no obvious?

colin alexander

@yesindyref2

Aye, it should be banned – for being a depressing dirge.

At least “The Merry Ploughboy” is more upbeat if listening to “Rebel” songs is your thing.

Peter. Edinburgh

Colin Alexander. This was trotted out the last time this issue was discussed here. That is not the Act. The Act does not include the words sectarian and sectarianism.

colin alexander

@Peter. Edinburgh

Well, so far on this site, among my pro-independence peers, in a few days I’ve been called: fud, tit, Yoon, troll, Orange Order appeaser, it, 77th Brigade and GCHQ agent and worst of all compared to Kezia Dugdale.

By Unionists, I’ve been called Jihadist, moron, fool, blue painted face fantasist, terrorist etc etc for saying I believe Scotland would be better off not being ruled from Westminster.

Again context, I guess. Intent to hurt or cause offence plays a part as well as the words used.

Liz g

Peter Edinburgh @ 4.39
Well then Peter you do not hope in vain..
Rest assured that I have all the knowledge that I need to discuss the impact on society of a Game.
I can easily weight up the cost to the tax payers, Scotland’s reputation,woman and children and the dugs in the street,of doing nothing.

But why……on my way to a football match (assuming that I have witnessed the much more interesting sight of all the paint in the world being dry) would I also go to a dug show?

It’s it at all possible Peter, that you are attempting to discuss a dug show and you don’t know anything at all about them?
As in is no something ye do on the way tae the game!!!

Ach,well don’t worry about it…me either!

colin alexander

@Peter.Edinburgh

Okay, I’ll take your word for it.

That’s the Act:

Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012

Not got time to read it yet.

Bzzzz

Jim Kelly is an idiot. Blinded by his jealous hatred of the SNP he thinks that scrapping the act & doing nothing is the way to address sectarianism. Idiots like him we do not need anywhere near any kind of decision making, I wouldn’t trust him to put his own shoes on nevermind have any say on law making and social attutides.

Lochside

The singing of Irish Republican songs from the Irish struggles up to and including the establishment of the Free State are legitimate…..as long as they are sung somewhere appropriate….but a football match is not one of them.

The problem with Irish (Ulster) loyalist songs is that they are inevitably sectarian and anti-Catholic and are not suitable or appropriate anywhere.

The fact is that both clubs should have instructed their support to bin all these tunes years ago, because at the end of the day they both are Scottish based and play only in the Scottish league. So there has never been any justification for them. The evidence shows that Rangers’ support only became virulently anti Catholic circa 1912 coinciding with Harland and Wolfe importing hundreds of Ulster protestant workers to their new Glasgow yard precisely the year that the ‘loyal’ Ulster Volunteer Force was being armed with German guns in preparation to fight the British Crown in order to usurp the democratic vote for Home Rule throughout Ireland.

These bigots adopted Rangers and the Celtic support’s traditional Irish airs took on a political colour in response to the newly arrived Ulstermen. Ranger’s biggest rivals at the time were Clyde, the ‘bully wee’. The oft quoted Cup Final riot of 1909 was not between the Old Firm fans but a united punch up with the police and firemen because of their perception of another replay and inflated prices being a ‘rip off’. An din those days they took umbrage by setting fire to Hampden and fighting the law..not each other.

All very weel…but we’ve been stuck with these bawling and violent brain washed fools for the past century. Bellowing and pissing and causing mayhem. Fergus McCann did try to persuade Celtic fans to become more Scottish and at the time was reviled. But….times have changed and we know now that most catholics in Scotland are pro Scottish Independence…unfortunately …we also know amongst those identifying as C of S there is still a minority.

The Brits know this…and are bigging up that division. Kelly and Catholic UK loyalists are behind the Green Brigade manipulating the young team into the old songs and attitudes. Meanwhile at Ibroke, there has been an institutional corrupt BRITNAT/Orange fusion being fabricated since Murray’s rule: Military parades, Union tricentennial celebrations etc. I attended one game during the REF where the Broomloan End had all ‘NO’ placards and where I was sitting I was roundly abused as a ‘fenian bastard’…I’m neither…

Our children must be protected from this insidious and deliberate poison being disseminated cynically by agents of division who represent an ‘Old Firm’ of BRITNATS. I would like to see stronger prosecution of this law to include the recent disgraceful performances of the OO throughout the West of Scotland…after all if they played these tunes at a football match they would standing in a dock like the fabled ‘Paul’ should have been.

Peter. Edinburgh

Liz g. I assume football fans go to dug shows. If one, on the way to a football match, popped into the local dug show and sang, for whatever reason, Boys of the Old Brigade, they can be arrested and charged under this Act.

Funnily enough, should they pop into the dug show and sing this very same song, in front of the very same people, and dugs, when there is no football on, they will not be arrested and charged under this Act.

Robert Louis

Anybody know why the green party are supporting this rubbish from the Labour village idiot, who wants to repeal the OBFA?

Serious question.

Robert Peffers

@Vronsky says: 16 July, 2017 at 2:29 pm

“I can’t find any fault in ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ that I couldn’t find in any Scottish Jacobite song. I’m also uneasy about the criminalisation of offensive behaviour.”

Then you do not know your history, Vronsky, and you have no idea of what constitutes offensive behaviour.

In 1688 the Parliamentarians of the Kingdom of England. (That is the country of England, the English Kingdom’s Principality of Wales, (1284) and the English Kingdom’s province of Ireland, (1542), rebelled against their rightful monarch.

That Scottish monarch had also worn the independent crown of the Kingdom of Scotland since 1603 but that Scottish Kingdom had remained independent with its own independent parliament since 1603. The Kingdom of England falsely still claims as, “The Union of the Crowns” but you cannot have a Union of the Crowns when the two Kingdoms remained independent until the Treaty of Union of 1606/7.

The English call this rebellion of their Parliament of England, “The Glorious Revolution”, but it was indeed a real rebellion by the Parliament and a revolution against the monarch of England but the Kingdom of Scotland was still independent until the forced Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

Thus the Jacobites could not be rebels as they could not rebel against a monarch not their own.

Simply put – as the two kingdoms were still fully independent but just happened to have their individual independent crowns sat upon the same person’s head, (due to a centuries old Marriage of Convenience of two children). Thus when England took the crown from that monarch’s head they had not the sovereignty to also take away the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

The people of Scotland had gained that legal sovereignty in 1320 by the Holy Roman Se, (The then accepted international authority of the European Christendom).

This legal acceptance of Scotland’s independence included the acceptance that the Scottish monarch’s role was as the Protector of the People’s Sovereignty. Thus the Scottish Monarch could not give to the Kingdom of England a Scottish sovereignty the monarch, to this day, does not legally have.

So these are the real facts. The so called Jacobite Rebellion was impossible to be a rebellion as the parliament of Scotland had not deposed their monarch and the, “Glorious Revolution”, of England was obviously a real rebellion as they not only deposed their monarch but installed the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange as the monarchs of the Kingdom of England while Scotland was still independent.

So now you can see that the so called Jacobite Rebellion was actually a war between two independent Kingdoms and the proof of that is The Treaty of Union of 1707. Why would they need a Treaty of Union if there was a Union of the Crowns in 1603?

Now as to the Irish case. The Holy Roman Se appointed the King of England as, “Lord of Ireland”, and in 1542 the King of England made the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, making the English Monarch the King of Ireland. That made all Ireland an English Province.

So the Irish situation was that the South of Ireland rebelled against their monarch and the original fighting was a civil war because both sides in the conflict were still parts of the United Kingdom.

Then the Westminster Parliament instigated, “The Irish Free State”, that state was a United Kingdom Dominion so both sides were still from the United Kingdom and that was still civil war.

The Irish Free State, (in Irish: Hailstát Éireann), ran as a UK Dominion from 1922 until 1937. So still both sides killing each other were parts of the UK – so still a Civil War.

In 1937 the Irish Free State declared, unilaterally, that it was no longer a UK Dominion and became, “The Republic of Ireland”, at which point the IRA, in Northern Ireland, became terrorists fighting for a foreign country.

There is absolutely no comparison between the IRA and the Jacobites who were truthfully fighting for their own monarchy in, and for, their own independent Kingdom.

Care to prove me wrong, Vronsky? You quite obviously believe the Westminster Establishment’s false history and their centuries of obvious lies.

So can you dispute any of the facts I stated or not?

Gary45%

Type in “Taiwanese motorcycle advert” into youtube, its for TC bank, this will fill you with joy on yet another day of abject misery and bigoted, inbred shite from the worst media anywhere on planet earth.

Liz g

Peter Edinburgh @ 5.14
That’s kinda what I’ve been saying Peter.
This is a time and a place and in context thing.
It’s an issue specific to football and so is only linked to attending football.
I would say that this is correct and I don’t need to know a thing about football to hold that position.
I only need to be convinced that there is in fact an issue that requires legislation and that the legislation is not to wide reaching,as in including the dug show’s.
You surely can’t say nothing needed done?
And also that Scotland should now send the message that it’s now ok to behave like this,that it was a mistake, it’s all perfectly legal now?
Please note that I am not ever against improving the legislation,but to repeal it no.
Any protection of my freedom of speech should I think come from as I have said keeping the government answerable to the people.

Vronsky

“Then you do not know your history, Vronsky, and you have no idea of what constitutes offensive behaviour.”

Cut to the chase. Why should offensive behaviour be illegal? Think before you answer.

Robert Peffers

@Walking on Sunshine says: 16 July, 2017 at 2:58 pm:

” … ‘The Boys of the Old Brigade’ is an Irish republican folk song written by Paddy McGuigan about the Irish Republican Army and the Irish War of Independence, (1919-1921), and the anniversary of the 1916 Easter Rising.”

You do know, or do you? That between 1919 and 1921 both sides fighting each other were United Kingdom citizens?

The Republic of Ireland was only a result of Unilateral Declaration of Southern Irish Republicanism in 1937.

The so called, (by Westminster), Anglo-Irish Treaty could not be an Anglo-Irish anything because both signatories were parts of the United Kingdom and you cannot sign a treaty with yourself.

It was an agreement by Westminster to accept that Southern Ireland was a Republic but it sure as hell was not a treaty of union between two different countries or kingdoms because the whole of Ireland became a part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland act. There was thus no Kingdom of Ireland in 1937 to become part of the United Kingdom because it was already made part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 and thus became part of the United Kingdom in 1707.

joannie

Robert Pfeffers, what point are you trying to make exactly? Your characterisation of the Irish War of Independence as a civil war because we were part of the UK is the kind of logic that could be used to describe any ex-colony’s fight for independence as a civil war. If you choose to view things that way, that’s up to you, but I don’t see what it has to do with the OBFA and the issue of whether The Boys of the Old Brigade should be covered by it.

colin Alexander

@Peter.Edinburgh

The Act refers to ethnic or national origins, religion or social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation etc

I think that’s how sectarian is defined. Though it covers more than sectarianism ( I think in Scotland it’s usually is regarded as Catholic/Protestant , Republican / Loyalist sympathies.)

link to legislation.gov.uk

Meg merrilees

Big cheer for Jamie Murray and Martina Hengis – just won the mixed doubles at Wimbledon.

Well done the boy from Dunblane and his colleague.

Peter. Edinburgh

Colin Alexander. So we agree that the words sectarian and sectarianism do not appear in the Act?

colin alexander

@yesindyref2

I was just joking about the song being banned. Everybody has different tastes in music.

If you like it, then enjoy yersel.

Personally, Seven Drunken Nights is my favourite Dubliners song.

—————–
@ people in general

What songs we enjoy in private is our own business, but common sense tells us it’s just asking for trouble to sing in public about the IRA, PIRA, UDA, UVF, The Troubles etc.

mike cassidy

Robert Louis 5.23

Here’s why the Green Party oppose the OBF act.

They think that legislation designed to discourage discrimination should not be targeted at one particular group of discriminators in society – ie football fans.

Read and weep.

link to archive.is

Glamaig

@joannie
I agree with you there I think calling the war of independence a civil war in the UK is very wide of the mark, in fact verging on insulting, and the IRA in that song obviously refers to the old IRA and 1919-22. (Obviously a civil war within Ireland followed the war of independence but was that not between factions of the IRA?) In just about any country that has won its independence there are similar songs e.g FoS.

However the context of football is different and at that point I bow out because I know nothing about football, happy to be a Piscy and not give a toss about sectarianism. Even having these discussions on WoS stirs it up and that is exactly what the like of Davidson, Murphy and Kelly want to do, encourage sectarianism and division, because they think the more divisions there are in Scotland the better for their purposes which is to prevent independence at literally any cost.

colin Alexander

@Peter.Edinburgh

As I’ve explained, The Act gives a detailed definition of what we would usually refer to as “sectarianism” so it has no need to use one word to describe that behaviour, as it uses many words to define that behaviour.

Liz g

Joannie 6.05
Couldn’t say for certain Joannie,as I don’t know anything about this song other than what has been said about it here today.
And I,as some will tell you (Peter mibbi) know even less about football.

But it seems to me that you have one crowd with an allegiance to another Country, standing in front of another crowd who think they are in their own country and need to support their army, saying that we’re remembering the heroes of our army that died when they gubbed your army,and flung your army out.
Kinda crazy….. I know…(try sectarian-splannin to a foreigner)!
But it’s the pointing out our army won in the country of the loosing army,to people who support said army,that I can see is offensive.
Even more so because the people doing it live under the protection of the army they are gloating over.
Hope that helps…. it’s how I make sense of it anyway.

Peter. Edinburgh

Colin Alexander. Why should anyone be asking for trouble singing The Boys of the Old Brigade? Or The Sash for that matter? As I said, I wouldn’t sing these songs, but then I wouldn’t sing any song in public. One of the issues with this Act is that it doesn’t define what songs are offensive. Whilst I might not find The Sash offensive, the Act allows for some reasonable person, somewhere, to be offended, and therefore you may be arrested and charged under this Act.

So, you might find it commonsense, I might define commonsense differently. Someone might define it differently again.

Peter. Edinburgh

Liz g. Allegiance to another country! Seriously?

joannie

@Glamaig – yes the Irish Civil War was between two factions of the IRA who split over the issue of the Treaty. And you’re correct that pretty much any country that won their independence from another country has rebel songs as part of their culture. In their proper context such songs are not sectarian or bigoted in any way, but maybe a Scottish football match is not the proper context for celebrating Ireland’s struggle for freedom!

I’m well acquainted with the Imperial tactic of divide and conquer through sectarianism, its a standard tactic of any Empire and it always causes bloodshed, frequently long after the Empire who created it has left – eg, the Rwandan genocide which has its roots in Belgian colonialism. To the extent that people are trying to stir up sectarianism in Scotland purely to undermine independence, I find that very sinister indeed.

Robert Graham

Another day ,another whack at the SNP , the democratically elected government of scotland yet again is the target , when nothing else is going on drag the barrel for some more rubbish works every time for Unionists , they are easily pleased .
This wee spot in the limelight for Mr Kelly is the best he can do , he has managed to get enough unionists to support his dig at the SNP , not to improve the bill ,just to harm the government .
Well done him eh , a small minded labour placement who probably hasn’t had an original thought in his life , gee wizz what a bloody treasure we have uncovered here, we should be grateful, A beacon and a shining light, a true statesman in the Scottish Parliament .No Laughing at the back now , is this the best Labour can offer ?, god help us all . And we pay for this .

Peter. Edinburgh

Colin Alexander. So, again, we agree that the Act does not contain the words sectarian and sectarianism?

colin Alexander

@Peter.Edinburgh

I spoke of common sense, but the reality is that in Scotland, there’s lots of bampots and usually they are out to cause trouble.

Lots of bampots are also football fans. These bampots tend to sing certain types of songs, not as a celebration of heritage or history but to wind up others and cause trouble.

Unfair, on decent football fans, but cos of the troublemakers everyone else is affected.

Maybe they could be addressed using other legislation, but as I’ve said, even innocent words can be used for offensive, hurtful intentions.

yesindyref2

I did try starting to sing the words of Despacito to a small public the other day. Definitely offensive!

Yes, I agree basically, songs can be offensive in context, specially if accompanied by pointing, gesticulating and sneering or laughing. So by that token, though some songs are definitely offensive in themselves, others can be at the likes of football matches.

Socrates MacSporran

I have long held, OBFA is bad law, hurriedly introduced and barely thought-through, but, it is better than nothing.

The football authorities have had plenty of time to sort-out the bad behaviours of the lunatic fringes which follow every club, but, they refuse to do the sensible thing and introduce legislation within the game, whereby clubs are held responsible for the bad behaviour of their fans.

This liability exists in European games, but not in domestic matches and, if the Hampden blazers will not act – the government has to.

I have yet to see suggestions brought forward by the opposition parties as to how they would tackle offensive behaviour at football, and I don’t suppose I ever will.

I also believe, the opposition from the likes of daftie Kelly in-part stems from his belief – Rangers have all the bad guys and songs, Celtic’s following is pure as the driven snow. Aye right!

Of course, given that poor wee put-upon Celtic-supporting law student was caught at Rugby Park, as was the half-wit who got caught singing the Famine Song, maybe we should just ban Kilmarnock from top-flight football.

Although, they did not a bad job of that themselves at Somerset Park on Friday night.

K1

The ‘guidelines’ of all Acts are precisely what judges refer to when ascertaining the nature of the offence or legislation being utilised to apply to the conduct of those who are charged under that ‘Act’.

To state that the word ‘sectarian’ is not in the written body of the Act and therefore the conduct of those who are in fact involved in being offensive to those from a different ‘religious’/ ‘race/s’ grouping than theirs, under this Act’s remit is a lie. The words sectarian are in those guidelines to ‘guide’ the judges in ‘ascertaining’ whether the said ‘offence/s’ fall under the remit of the Act itself.

Therefore sectarian conduct is very well covered by this Act. In fact this Act specifically ‘does’ address ‘sectarian’ behaviour at football matches:

‘Purpose

The objective of the offences provided for in this Act is to tackle sectarian hatred and other offensive and threatening behaviour related to football matches and to prevent the communication of threatening material, particularly where it incites religious hatred. The primary but not sole motivation for the offences concerns football. While the vast majority of supporters attend matches with the sole purpose of enjoying Scotland’s national game, there continues to be a bigoted and undesirable element who continue to sing and chant “sectarian” and other offensive verses. These offences are intended to help make Scotland safer and stronger, and contribute to tackling inequalities in Scottish society.’

Further:

‘It is intended to address the problem of offensive and threatening conduct, including singing and chanting, and the display of offensive flags and banners (in particular, those of a “sectarian” or racist nature) which are known to incite public disorder associated with football matches.’

Why would there be guidelines to any Act if not to ‘guide’ those charged with administering the law?

These guidelines are ‘intrinsic’ to the Act/s themselves.

Liz g

Peter Edinburgh @ 6.41
Aye Peter .. seriously
They are standing in Scotland,watching two Scottish team’s and it’s no Scotland they sing about.
They fly the flag of another country also.
How else could you describe it?
Told ye this sectarian thing is insane.
Insane and violent….there ought to be a law
What say you Peter?

Stoker

Liz g (7:08pm)

I think the Rev’s punted his erse out of here for not heeding the warnings given out.

Liz g

Stoker 7.20
Oops,thanks for that Stoker just seeing it now.

Capella

Thanks Stu. Those two were ruining the comment threads, if indeed they are not just one person.

Cactus

Kudos.

stu mac

@Socrates MacSporran says:
==================

Re your comment re Kilmarnock. We often see the wee clubs punished for things like this. But when a whole stand at Ibrox or Parkhead does it, nothing happens (or at most one or two guys are grabbed and charged). This is why the football authorities do nothing, they know that any actions they took about this would mostly affect the old firm and they are too feart to take them on.

Valerie

Thank you, Rev! That arsehole deserved hammers. Not only spouting copious shite, deliberately provocative, but he clearly didn’t give a damn for being warned.

I agree with every word of the Revs analysis of the Mail drivel. This Paul idiot is going to make some crap lawyer, if he exists.

The telling part is he didn’t think it was offensive. That’s exactly the defence racists use, Vronsky.

Oh, c’mon I’ve always said ‘pa**’ , says the racist, it’s a term of endearment, we always said that, it’s not meant to be nasty.

It makes me sick. Of course it needs the law, in the same way racism needs the law.

These pieces always guarantee that plenty rocks are overturned, and we see the raft of apologists for bigots come running.

Petra

@ Mike Cassidy at 6:32pm …. “Greens oppose OBF Act.”

Thanks for the link Mike and I see that Harvie says “The Scottish Greens believe that the Football Act unnecessarily restricts freedom of expression and is not the most effective means of addressing these concerns.”

Freedom of expression? I wonder if he’d change his tune if football fans took it up their humph to start singing songs about homosexuals / bisexuals?

joannie

@Liz g – Celtic has Irish roots though and a big following in Ireland itself. Its hardly to be wondered that their fans sing Irish songs and wave Irish flags.

Liz g

Stu Mac @ 7.50
That’s what I was getting at earlier,Stu.
It would be unrealistic to arrest a whole stand full of people.
But perfectly possible to empower the police to interrupt the game.
And change the score or declare it void if the nonsense is held back till the end.
Wouldn’t be much fun to have to buy a ticket two or three times to get a decision about the outcome of a match.

colin alexander

@Capella, Liz g etc

“I think the Rev’s punted his erse out of here for not heeding the warnings given out.”

Before youse all start celebrating:

Colin Alexander is still around ;-).

BUT, to cheer youse up, I’m finished posting today.

Enjoy!

K1

Aye Valerie, he was at least ‘obvious’…his axe wis pre grinded from the last time he appeared, with the exact same rehearsed statements and assertions.

K1

Oh his shift has ended, quite blatant really int he.

Robert Peffers

@Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 3:30 pm:

” … Celtic do not have Glasgow in their name! Again, the ignorance of people making comments on this issue.”

That’s because they are not a Scottish club and they fly the Irish Tricolour to prove it. You want their history, Peter?

I’ll tell you anyway. The Celtic Football Club was started up by
Andrew Kerins, better known by his religious name of Brother Walfrid, Born: May 18, 1840, in Ballymote in The Republic of Ireland. He Died: April 17, 1915, at Dumfries. He was Lay Brother of the Marist Brothers Order.

He was sponsored to do so by the already established and successful Hibernian FC that actually began life in Edinburgh and not as most think, Leith. It all began at St Patrick’s RC church in the Cowgate in Edinburgh and again by an RC Lay Brother.

St Patrick’s Church in the Cowgate founded a Catholic Young Men’s Society (CYMS) in 1865.The motive was because the Irish community was not being integrated into the wider Edinburgh community and Canon Edward Joseph Hannan looked for ways to achieve this.

Michael Whelahan, suggested to Canon Hannon that the CYMS should form its own football club and at a meeting on 6 August 1875, Hibernian F.C. was founded. Canon Hannon was its first manager and Michael Whelahan as its first captain.

All Hibs players had to be members of the CYMS and because of this Hibs have been accused of being the first sectarian football club in Scotland, (a charge commonly levelled at Rangers).

Hibs played charity matches in benefit of causes other than the Catholic Church, however, and Whelahan once said, “ We were both surprised and delighted at the invitation and can assure you that neither race nor religion were ever a consideration of Hibernian or the CYMS to help such a worthy cause. ”

During the first few years of their history, Hibs played their matches on The Meadows of the south side of Edinburgh and Hibs established themselves in Scottish football after overcoming some initial sectarian resistance to being an Irish club. A note from the Scottish Football Association stated that:-“ We are catering for Scotsmen, not Irishmen”. Funnily enough it was to be Hibs’ future rivals Hearts who did most to break down this bigoted resistance for hearts defied the rules which stated that no club should play matches against the Irish club.

Hearts provided the opposition in Hibs’ first match on Christmas Day 1875, which Hearts won 1–0 and with the persistence of Canon Hannan and Whelahan Hibs were eventually accepted by the governing bodies.

So in fact Hibs founders were the sponsors of the RC churches attempts to start a similar club in Glasgow and in fact the original name proposed for the Glasgow club was to be, “Glasgow Hibernians”.

Celtic were only one of the Scottish Clubs that were instigated by the Hibs and one such was Dundee.so there you go, “The Auld Firm”, were actually not the original, “Auld Firm”, for Hibs & Hearts beat then too that title. Another truth is that the Celtic Hoops were originally the Hibs official strip and It is believed that when Celtic first took to the pitch it was while wearing a set of the Hibs hooped jerseys.

Go look at the dates these teams were founded.

BTW: Historically the Worlds first recorded and documented Football Club began in Edinburgh and they played their games on the Meadows. The written Records of that club still exist. The Foot-Ball Club (active 1824–41) of Edinburgh, Scotland, is the first documented club dedicated to football, and the first to describe itself as a football club. The only surviving club rules forbade tripping, but allowed pushing and holding and the picking up of the ball. Other documents describe a game involving 39 players and “such kicking of shins and such tumbling”.

Glamaig

Rock’s about to clock on 🙂

K1

Ayep 🙂

Cactus

Hey Scotland… have a most excellent Sunday!

Whose got the funk?

Liz g

Joannie @ 8.04
Yes I do know that Joannie….
I am not offering an opinion of the rights and wrongs of that.
I certainly think it’s perfectly possible to have some sort of allegiance to another Country or culture.
Our whole tourist industry depends on it.

I am just saying that in the park when Celtic is on the field the allegiance is to Ireland…..and well em Ireland is another Country.
To sing of another Countries military success, against the army of the people of the Country you are standing in front of is offensive.
As is singing of what you fantasise about doing to a large section of that other Country,or demanding some kind of repatriation, while ofcourse not thinking that one through.

But either way this has nothing to do with Scotland,and everything to do with taunting and offending the opposite crowd.
As to who benifits…..no the singer’s of the song’s that’s fur sure.
Anyhoo doesn’t Ireland it’s self no create a space in it’s own culture for rembering its military achievements ?
If this is a serious song of remembering,there are surely more appropriate places than a Glasgow football ground.
It’s is,it seems to me,a bit disrespectful to have it sung on the same occasions as the one about being up to the knees in someone’s blood!

Cai Larsen

The song isn’t about the 1916 Easter Uprising, it’s about the so called Black & Tan war which led to the independence of what is now the Irish Republic. Songs celebrating the period are very common. I can think of none that are sectarian in nature, but they do celebrate war – a bit like God Save the Queen & Land of Hope & Glory.

Juteman

Robert Peffers @ 8.16.
I think you will find it was Dundee Utd FC, not Dundee FC.
They were originally called Dundee Hibs.

joannie

@Liz g – the narrative of The Boys of the Old Brigade is a son consoling his father about the friends he lost during the Easter Rising by saying their sacrifice wasn’t in vain. Its not a particularly triumphalist song, its more of a poignant, bittersweet lyric. I can imagine it doesn’t sound very poignant when belted out by a crowd at a football match though, so yeah, probably not the right time or place for that particular song.

I’m just a bit worried though that the subtext of this conversation seems to be that any displays of Irishness, whether from Scots of Irish descent or Irish people living in Scotland is to be declared sectarian and put off limits. Isn’t that in itself rather sectarian?

Ian Brotherhood

@Bzzz (5.10) –

Jim Kelly is an idiot…I wouldn’t trust him to put his own shoes on.

Having recently witnessed Kelly toddling along Buchanan Street, I think your wariness is well-founded – he looks like an escapee from an episode of Trumpton.

Robert J. Sutherland

gus1940 @ 13:47,

O/T, but it’s late enough on a fairly repetitive thread (=ducking for cover=), so maybe I can now chuck in a response to your posting upthread (and in an earlier thread also).

First off, the Norway Campaign wasn’t under Churchill’s watch, but Chamberlain’s. It was the failure of the French/British intervention there which in fact led to the fall of Chamberlain, and after something of a wobble, his replacement by Churchill.

Dunkirk thus was the second ignominious retreat of a British expeditionary force during the War.

In regards to comments about that, one needs to understand that the BEF in 1940 was a relatively small outfit in comparison with the French Army. Unlike the large standing armies of the major continental powers, the peacetime British Army was essentially a colonial border force. The BEF was a stop-gap adjunct which only just managed to stall a breakthrough in 1914 but failed to do the same in 1940. Not least due to the fact that after the outbreak of WW2, Belgium, paralysed by fear of providing any excuse for a German accusation of provocation, remained strictly neutral until the country was itself attacked, so the supporting British and French had a long way to go to set up suitable lines of defence, while at the same time, by an extraordinary coup de theatre, the German invaders had in fairly short order captured Belgium’s main defensive position, the Maginot-like Fort Eben-Emael, leaving little left to stop or even delay a fast advance.

So basically, the BEF was outstretched and didn’t have the numbers (or indeed the technology or state of readiness either) to stand on its own in 1940 against the highly-prepared might of the German armed forces, in the air just as much as on the ground.

Lastly, the position of the Highland Division shouldn’t be confused with the defence of the Dunkirk perimeter. The 51st remained under the command of the French Army throughout, initially well to the east in Lorraine attached as line support troops to the great Hackenberg fortress on the Maginot Line, and the Division was latterly brought back to the south-west to try to help stop the well-known (and well-planned) Panzer breakthrough through the Ardennes and around the western edge of that line.

The Highland Division’s support lines were able to withdraw to their supply port of Le Havre (including, if I recall correctly, the 52nd (Lowland) Division which had started to deploy from there), but the Highlanders were ordered by Churchill to stay and fight with the French so that the French military and cabinet couldn’t use a total withdrawal as an excuse for mutual recriminations and failure.

The HD ended up surrounded at St. Valery, which has high cliffs on either side and not sandy beaches. They were sitting ducks to the enemy installed on the heights, as by that time would any boats have been if they had tried to evacuate. They Division had run out of land to fight on and it was too little too late for any evacuation.

For an interesting blow-by-blow account of that whole situation, see eg.

link to en.wikipedia.org

There is a fine memorial in St.Valery to the Highland Division, though. And a main highway named in its honour as well. The English hardly knew and very obviously don’t care anyway, but the French have not forgotten.

Donald Urquhart

Under the OBFA, is is still ok to sing about Dundee FC being soap dodgers?

caz m

Ian brotherhood 8.41pm

Thanks for providing the jokes Ian.

Stuck on a rig in wet and windy scapa flow.

ScottishPsyche

Isn’t the whole point that the songs and chants deemed offensive have a particular significance when sung by one group of people at another group in a particular setting?

The songs themselves may or may not contain lyrics or words considered offensive on their own but in that situation, they are a red rag to a bull and incite extreme reactions. That is why context is everything and you cannot just look at the song or chant on its own merits.

yesindyref2

@RJS
Yes, the French stay behind their heavily fortified and basically impenetrable Maginot line, and the Germans said about Belgium: “Neutral? What do you mean, neutral?”.

Switzerland which maintains its neutrality has or had, national service to preserve its neutrality. It even had / has a navy! One of the reasons though that Belgium was a found member of NATO, as was Iceland. One for all, all for one.

Giving Goose

I have an Irish surname.
I’m Scottish to my core.
Why would I sing foreign songs about foreign subjects?

velofello

Question no1: Is the article, and Paul, a real person? Fake news mebbe?By his words of recognising his errors I’d would have thought “Paul” would have stepped forward to publicly explain his case.

Question No2 ; Why in quick progression has Torrance written of the Ulsterisation of Scottish politics; Ruthie made a Colonel in the weekend TA; the DUP handed +£billion; and the BBC filming orange parades?

My view is that the UK elite will stoop to no act too low or vile to act against Scotland’s independence and so maintain hold of their cash cow Scotland, and their perceived world status. What did one of them say? “Without Scotland we are diminished”. Whilst remaining in the UK Scotland is diminished. Brexit is going to impoverish you personally, in your pocket. It really is time to get actively involved with the SNP, the Yes movement, Women for Indy, or whatever suits you, if you truly care.

Liz g

Joannie @ 8.38
Oh joannie, I hope that you don’t think that from anything I have said.
I do find the whole sectarian thing absolutely contemptible and will speak that way about it.
But not Ireland or the Irish.
You did ask why that song would be offensive and I was trying to tell you that I could see it as offensive because….
I certainly don’t find it so.
My position on it all is that as Jockanesewindtalker said earlier,the people are being used,and I don’t just mean lately.
As an atheist the way religion is used to hurt people goes back centuries and I will have no nice words to say for it.
And like you,the Ramping up of these division’s in Scotland is worrisome,and I believe it’s only being done to try to prevent our Independence.
So….My response to it is,this is not a Scottish issue,and should not become one.
I have to hope that we can get a handle on this nonsense in Scotland going forward,and please believe me when I say,that I can see an Edinburgh/Dublin influence as more positive for the victims of the establishment games being played on the people ALL the people of Northern Ireland.
I hope you and I are good?

Dr Jim

No matter which way you slice it when it comes to this dire mentally irregular subject it doesn’t have the feel good factor does it

JLT

@ Proud Cybernat 3.57pm

Hi mate. Yep, it was truly a bizarre turn. For someone to raise religion in the middle of a political debate is always alarming, and too be honest, rather insidious. It always leads one to ask new questions about an individual when they decide to advocate their religion right into the heart of the politics of the State. I could honestly say, that this work colleague of mine (whom I worked with on a sister site about three years ago), would honestly utterly condemn the leaders of Iran, let alone ISIS, for their advocation of promoting religion into the political sphere, while not seeing the irony from his own statement, position and beliefs. It is staggering that people actually condemn others over their political and religious beliefs without realising that they are looking into a mirror themselves. I can only shake my head in disbelief at such folk. And this guy is not a daft person. He is actually in a position of responsibility – I kidd you not.

And yet …that was not the only eyebrow raising moment of the week. Another friend that I know (and I have known this guy since I was 8 years old when I attended Harrysmuir in Livingston) decided to take a wee trip to Belfast. His post on Facebook on the 11th and prior to the Glorious 12th …stated ‘Now this is what you call a bonfire!’.

And the only reason I knew where he was at that moment, was because of pictures on here from the Rev’s article on the 12th as well as all the other condemnation posts on Facebook leading up to the 12th. My childhood friend who I rarely see these days (except from his odd post on Facebook) had decided to attend the ‘celebrations’ and ‘festivities’ in Belfast, and if anything, this was the one point during the week that probably affected and appalled me the most. For my friend, Ian, who got 8 ‘O’ Grades with ‘A’ passes as well as 5 Highers with a mixtures of ‘A’s and ‘B’s during the exams of 1984 and 1985 also saw no problems with attending an Orange event.

I found this to be the most depressing point during the week as it was saddening example that a person can pass every exam under the sun, but somehow, can find, nor take, any enlightenment from the education that he was given.

I found it truly sad, that Ian …should have been the perfect example of what a person can be through educational achievement, and therefore should have bettered himself and others in so many ways …but instead, proven to me (and others) that sometimes for all the knowledge that one can gain …wisdom is not guaranteed.

In its own little way …thank God this last week is now done.

Robert Peffers

Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 3:33 pm:
“Remember, the OBFA is not about sectarianism.”

You are right it isn’t specifically about sectarianism, Peter. The ignorance of the people who wish to rescind the OBFA is abysmal. You would imagine hey at least could read English and know what the initial letters stood for the first two are offensive and behaviour and statistically not only are the figures for the numbers up before the bench and for those who have actually been found guilty are mainly from Celtic & Rangers and of those the majority are for sectarianism.

The entire population of Scotland knows that and the majority of both football supporters and members of the public think it is a good law.

Robert J. Sutherland

JLT @ 22:05,

It’s not actually about religion at all. If the workmate had been quizzed about the tenets of his professed “protestant” beliefs, I doubt if he could have articulated anything coherent about them. Likewise I doubt his church attendance was anything except honoured in its absence.

It’s actually far worse than that. It’s pure atavistic tribalism, as still besets many parts of Africa. These Orange and Green tribes are the Tsutsis and Hutus of Scotland (inherited and sustained FGS by proxy from Norn Ireland). Or indeed the warring Big Endians and Little Endians of that 18th-century satire, Gulliver’s Travels.

The main function of sectarianism is, and always has been, social control. Like the poor Southern whites of the USA, convince the disadvantaged that there is a group even more lowly than them that they can despise, and you can distract them from their own reality and manipulate them.

Maybe we don’t fully realise just how insidiously influential that exercise of control through sectarianism still is in Scotland, not least in the media.

Maybe that workmate, for example, got his job by that means. But couldn’t articulate it out loud because it would expose undue influence, and thus possibly some civil if not criminal malfeasance.

Hence, I believe, the real reason for all this heavy-duty antagonism to the OBFA – for the first time ever it really challenges these hidden channnels of influence. No wonder the bigots are afraid, but in an odd way they are victims too. It’s those yanking the strings who have the most to fear.

Robert Peffers

@Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:04 pm:

“Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of this issue. The Act is not about being AT football. It does not restrict itself to an incident AT football.”

That’ll be why it is titled,,”The Offensive Behaviour at Football Act”, will it then, Peter? Yet you talk of other people’s ignorance. Here’s a hint for you – it isn’t called the Offensive Behaviour at football for nothing.

Matter of fact the full title of the act is, “”The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act”.

The eventual thing that pushed it through the Parliament was the incidents of threats and even bullets being sent to the then Celtic Manager. Yet we have numpties like you attempting to defend the indefensible.

Want to know what will most likely happen if that idiot Kelly were to manage to have the Act repealed? Ill tell you anyway.

The offensive behaviour will increase again as will the violence. And not only at football matches, or by fans travelling to away games. Then the public will complain and the Scottish MSM and broadcasters will have a field day of great big banner headlines and much more severe restrictions will be put in force.

Perhaps a ban of Old Firm Fans travelling to away games or being forced to play their games behind closed doors and big fines on any club whose fans offend and break the other, and older laws that can be used to deal with such behaviour.

Robert Peffers

@Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:11 pm:

“Effijy. Is there any debate about sectarian songs? Is anyone defending sectarian songs? I am certainly not.”

Well, Peter, you sure as hell could have fooled me about that.

As I pointed out and posted – the full title of the act tells it is plain that the act covers offensive behaviour and specifically applies to football and if you fondly imagine that the singing of sectarian songs is not offensive behaviour then you forfeit any right to refer to other on Wings as ignorant.

Ian Brotherhood

Met elderly family friend (ex-neighbour) earlier today.

Daily Mail reader, ‘No’ in 2014, voted for Brexit, admires Farage as ‘a normal guy who likes a pint and a smoke’ etc etc…you get the picture.

After the indyref result we agreed not to discuss politics. In the half dozen or so times we’ve met since then, that’s what’s happened. But today, after he raised the subject of GCC ‘discussing’ OO marches in our shared hometown, he said ‘it looks like the Troubles are going to start here.’

This dude is 20 yrs older than me and isn’t daft. Aye, he’s a unionist at heart, but he’s from an Irish Catholic background, a ‘staunch’ Labour-voting family. He’s worried.

Gives me no big pleasure to say this, but if he’s at all typical of the SLabbers who voted Tory in the GE (I suspect he did, but I didn’t ask him and he didn’t say, never would confess in any case) then we should take heart – this guy would never ever vote for ‘that Sturgeon lassie’, and will happily repeat that to anyone who’ll listen. Five years ago? He’d have sworn blind that no circumstances would ever arise in which he’d vote Tory.

There’s a lot of soul-searching going on right now by people who’ve been consistently lied-to by a succession of utterly hopeless, blinkered SLabbers who seem to be fuelled 24/7 by pure SNPBaaaaad. When Brexit starts taking the ‘UK’ down the lavvy and the U-bend is in sight, a lot of these folk will recognise that indy isn’t a fanciful notion – it’s an escape route. They’ll hold their noses if they have to vote Yes in indyref2, but make no mistake – if there’s a clear and present danger to the contents of their wallets? They’ll do it.

boris
joannie

@Liz g – yes, you and I are good. And mostly in agreement too, I’d say, aside from a few quibbles about the details.

Robert J. Sutherland

Ian Brotherhood @ 22:47,

It’s not just a money thing. For years, two-faced “Scottish” Labour burnt the sectarian candle at both ends, when it suited them.

The Ruthless Unionist Party OTOH isn’t at all equivocal, it’s taking all comers – provided they’re Loyalists.

That must really concern people like your ex-neighbour. And with good reason. Developments are shaking up all the familiar allegiances people like him thought they could always rely upon.

Phronesis

There are very sound reasons for addressing unacceptable behaviour at football matches that spills outside of the football grounds and results in fear and misery-

‘The Old Firm fixture between Glasgow Rangers and Celtic has long-standing connections with conflictual political and religious identities. As a consequence, matches between the two teams have often been blighted by incidents of collective violence and sectarianism. More recently, however, there has been increasing concern regarding the impact of this fixture on violence against women. Indeed, the fact that the First Minister of Scotland was questioned on the issue in the Scottish Parliament on March 3, 2011, highlights political perceptions of the severity of the issue (Scottish Parliament, 2011).
Moreover, in the same month, a Joint Action Group (JAG) was established “to maintain and protect the good reputation of Scottish football and to contribute positively to efforts to tackle wider social issues—in particular alcohol misuse, violence and bigotry”, with a specific interest in “improving an understanding of the relationship between football and domestic abuse”, particularly around Old Firm matches (JAG, 2011).’

DOI: 10.1177/2158244013504207

The work of JAG should be supported by all football clubs and their fans if the game is to be regarded as a family friendly sport, fit for the 21st century- what would be the motivation to contest any of these aims-

‘The remit of the group consisted of the eight commitments agreed at the Football Summit on 8 March 2011.

1. To support the introduction of tough new measures to reduce alcohol consumption before and after games, and to make a significant contribution to the longer term effort to tackle Scotland’s alcohol problem

2. To ensure that all those involved in matches are fully aware of their legal responsibilities

3. To consider the expansion of Football Banning Orders and the clubs’ own codes of conduct to respond to criminal behaviour of fans away from the grounds specifically on domestic abuse

4. To ensure that the Police have the support of all parties to the enforcement of the law in relation to public order including on the internet. This would include consideration both of the consistency of the policing of football in Scotland and the potential role of a dedicated Football Intelligence Unit

5. To support the expansion of the excellent existing community and social partnerships between the “Old Firm” to take every opportunity to demonstrate mutual respect and cooperation

6. To ensure that the existing rules and regulations of Scottish football are rigorously applied and respected

7. In light of information provided by the Chief Constable of Strathclyde Police, to explore jointly and understand the practicalities of new fixture scheduling opportunities to minimise damage to communities

8. To offer full support to all the work by clubs, authorities and police to work with communities to address alcohol misuse, sectarianism, racism, domestic abuse and violence’

link to gov.scot

heedtracker

Ian Brotherhood says:
16 July, 2017 at 10:47 pm
Met elderly family friend (ex-neighbour) earlier today.

The Troubles were here in Scotland and England anyway. Car bombs and shootings stayed 50 odd miles away from Scotland but England suffered.

That’s the real horror behind the yoons and the UK media stoking it all up in Scotland and NI. They dont want it to end. They want it back.

Why else would this tory nutcase be sliming around Ibrox for example?

link to twitter.com

mike cassidy

Robert J Suthrland 8.48

And that whole Dunkirk situation arose because the German attackers (Rommel and all) were out their boxes on crystal meth – or pervitin as it was called then.

Hitler was so jealous of the speedy military success that he gave his famous ‘halt’ order rather than letting them overwhelm the allied forces.

link to archive.is

Finished “Blitzed” today. Well worth reading.

No idea if any of the drug stuff will appear in Christopher Nolan’s “Dunkirk” movie.

liz g

Joannie @
Phew…glad to hear it, my friend.
I know that you don’t want to intigrate the schools, from previous conversations….but that’s a whole other thing!
I cannot be anything else other than horrible to and about the sectarianism in Scotland.
But it doesn’t mean that we can’t chat about it.
Please don’t think that I am speaking from ignorance…. I do know a thing or two about it….to my cost.
But also if you are not comfortable with the stuff I say, please tell me.
What ever else could I say now but
Peace Always…..X

Cactus

Tonight we were in Glasgow’s ‘The Stand’.

Michael Redmond hosting…

He’s some dude.

Comedy.

West end.

Nb….

Love Scotland.

X.

Whose the victim & who is the aggressor?

3 up, all across.

Robert Peffers

@joannie says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:15 pm:

“@Rev Stu, Colin Alexander and Robert Pfeffers – I’m sorry I still don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade.”

As an aside my surname is Peffers – A good old Scottish Name as in Strathpeffer. Which town’s name is derived from the Gaelic Strath is an area of low lying land and peffer is between two rivers. Strathpeffer is indeed between two rivers.

Anyway, I digress.
” … I’m sorry I still don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Its a song about the old IRA who fought for Irish independence and were no more terrorists than George Washington’s men.”

Sorry but you are wrong. The Old IRA were Irish United Kingdom subjects who were using violence against other Irish United Kingdom subjects.

“There is nothing sectarian or hateful about the lyrics and while it may not be an appropriate song for a football match, that shouldn’t be a police matter.”

Oh! Come on. The entire history of the Irish troubles is historically sectarian and I’m going right back to the Norman Conquest of Ireland there.

“In October 1171, King Henry landed a large Anglo-Norman army in Ireland to establish control over both the Cambro-Normans and the Irish. The Norman lords handed their conquered territory to Henry. He let Strongbow hold Leinster in fief and declared the cities to be crown land.”

The background to all that was that the Holy Roman Se, (The Pope in Rome), made the English King Lord of the Kingdom of Ireland.

Later Henry VIII decided to appoint himself the head of the Christian Church in the Kingdom of England because he wanted to change his wives having fancied a change or seven of bed-mates.

The Church of Rome and the King of England fell out for the Church of Rome did not like that being supplanted by a mere mortal and thus began the sectarianism that has bedevilled the whole of Britain ever since.

The never ending battles between Christian sects is with us today. Just read the Treaty of Union if you do not believe me.

Here is Article 2 of the Treaty of Union.

“THAT the Succession of the Monarchy to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and of the Dominions thereto belonging, after Her Most Sacred Majesty, and in Default of Issue of Her Majesty, be, remain, and continue to the Most Excellent Princess Sophia, Electoress and Dutchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of her Body being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled by an Act of Parliament made in England in the twelfth Year of the Reign of his late Majesty King William the Third, Intituled, An Act for the further Limitation of the Crown, and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject: And that all Papists, and Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and forever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the Imperial Crown of Great Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging, or any Part thereof, and in every such Case the Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to, and be enjoyed by such Person being a Protestant, as should have inherited and enjoyed the same in case such Papist or Person marrying a Papist, was naturally Dead according to the Provision for the Descent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England in the first Year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary entituled An Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.”

When James VI of Scotland became also James I of England the English did not like it. Under the laws in force throughout Christendom, (except in Scotland)Divine Right of Kings), James VI should have just added the three country Kingdom of England to his existing Kingdom of Scotland but because of Rome falling out with the English Monarchy James was not sovereign in S because the Declaration of Arbroath made the people legally sovereign and so James could not make a United Kingdom as he could not give away the sovereignty he did not legally have.

However the Stewart dynasty were predominately Roman Catholics and when the English Parliament deposed their monarch who also wore the independent crown of Scotland they began what they still call The Jacobite Rebellion.

The truth was, that as the parliament of England had rebelled and deposed their monarch they were the actual rebels against the rightful king of England and as Scotland was still independent until the Act of Union the Jacobites were not rebels as you cannot rebel against a king who is not your own and because the English Parliament and Scottish parliament were independent in 1688 Scotland had not changer their monarch and that is what they were still fighting about at the Battle of the Boyne.

Our whole history since the English King Henry VIII is all about sectarianism and the partition of Ireland was all part of sectarianism too. Remember Southern Ireland did not declare itself a republic until 1937. It was part of the UK until then and all that because old Henry King of England had a fancy to change his wives so often – How many people have died for that man’s sexual proclivity?

BTW: I have NO religion so have no axe to grind for either sect.

Dan Huil

Looking forward to a fun-packed week of britnat brexit mayhem.

Robert Peffers

@Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:39 pm:

You sure as hell are not the best person to be calling wingers ignorant.

Ealasaid

@RJS, @Gus1940
My cousin doing the family history tells me that her father was in the 51st at Dunkirk and survived. It really was a matter of survival at the time.

Somebody else mentioned, can’t find who, that French had been evacuated and that it should have been left to the French. But the French were not covered by the rules of war as the British were and if they had been captured they would have been shot. When the beaches were cleared the remaining 51st dropped their weapons and surrendered. They were taken as prisoners of war.

But like most who survived the war, my uncle did not talk much about his experiences.

Liz g

Me @ 3.49 this afternoon…
Unless nobody read the comment…… thanks to all of you who did,,,for NOT pointing out…. that my mistake completely changed its meaning.
Shouting Fire in an “empty” room….is irrelevant.
It is ofcourse in a crowded theatre…as the Rev quoted later that is the actual point.
Hey Ho….at least I didny get flung out!
Well this time!!

galamcennalath

The problem with the Unionists adopting their default SNPBad to everything is that they end up not doing the right things.

They don’t pursue what is best for Scotland, they pursue what is best for their party and their Union. Then ordinary Scots are their ‘collateral damage’.

It’s only a matter of time until their stupidity results in someone being injured or worse.

Cactus

Somewhere in the night.

Streetlights.

People.

Life is a Journey, strangers!

Cactus

Whisky is good.

Love Scotland.

Always.

Never not.

Always the victim, never the mark twain.

Ahm a yong gun.

Yeah!

Cactus

Good holiday Monday morning Scotland.

How was ur yesterday?

It’s ur day off.

Think NOW.

“Back in black”

ScottishPsyche

O/T

GoT tonight. Came to it late and resisted the hype for so long but it is so good.

Ghillie

Apologies folkss,just dropped in nd haven’t yet read throuh the comments. This is for Paul.

Dear Paul,

You were in your final yar o studying for a Law degree when the police came to your door…

For sstaarters, what a fabulous insight into being on THAT side o the Law. One you will carry with you for the rest of life, I hope. And ecept as the gift of insight that this experience surely is.

But now,I have to ask you exactly how uch had you aken on board rom your studies? This being your FINAL year and much learning presumaably, has been undertaen up tothis point.

You broke a law.

Doesn’t matter if you think it is not the best framed law in the World or entirely fit for purpose.

You, a final year law student,aperson,probabaly better versed in matters of the law,broke a law, which I expect was welldiscused on your course and was certainly well disscussed int eh wider arena of the media and onlie.

We all now that ignorance is no defence in the Law. But ost folk are also wellaware that not fancying a Law is even less defene when it comesto breaking a law and on top of tht, being seen and getting caught.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ?

Am not proud of your attitude at all but am glad you learned something from the good ol of SCARO.

But what would you e lie now if you hadn’t been hauled in to the police station to eplain yourself?

Wouldyour ignorance and foolhardiness hve stayed with youor the rest of your life and through your working carreer?

You have been blessed. God moves in mysterious ways. I hope this lesson has not fallen on stoney ground.

Make sure you use your Law degree, your opportunities, and most importantly, your experience in the most positve way possible. Don’t waste this

Cactus

Feel the vibration Scotland…

Ur making it.

We are.

“Get ready!”

Cactus

Live NOW.

Ghillie

Jings!

That is what my ‘sticky keys’ writng looks like uncorrected!

Have fun making sense of that post!

Cactus

Taps aff.

Ain’t talking about ra water.

Free yourself.

Do it now!

Cactus

Ur beautiful babes.

X.

t42

Backbenchers off the leash? Its notable none of the party leaders are around…maybe they can be put on the spot at next weeks first ministers ques..ahhh!-Isn’t that unfortunate timing.
The parliament should be extended till end of July with immediate effect.

Cactus

Black n tan… ah dunno whit it means in political speak but ah’ve tried it.

Guinness & yer Sweetheart Stout, aye yeah.

Glasgow knows.

Tis a long way to the top if ye wanna R&R.

I am young Frankenstein.

Gene knows.

Cactus

Be the preacher…

Call on a friend..

How ye doing Smallaxe.

Peace always.

Scotland first and always.

What is the UK.. no really, wtf is ra UK?

Answer not required.
“…so far away”

Take me down..

Hail heid approaching Ceaser!

Hail ye l’Alba!

Please.

Cactus

“For those about to ROCK… WE!”

Caeser.

Ghillie

Tidied up version:

Apologies folks, just dropped in and haven’t yet read through the comments. This is for Paul.

You were in your final year of studying for a Law degree when the police came to your door…

For starters, what fabulous insight into being on THAT side of the Law ! One you will carry with you for the rest of your life, I hope. And accept as the gift of insight that experience surely is.

But now, I have to ask you exactly how much you had taken on board from your studies. This being your FINAL year and much learning presumably having been undertaken by this point.

You broke a law.

Doesn’t matter if you don’t think it is the best framed law in the World or not entirely fit for purpose.

You, a final year law student, a person, probably better versed than most in matters of the law, broke a law. A law, which I expect was probably well disscussed on your course, and was certainly well discussed in the wider arena of the media and online.

We all know that ignorance is no defence in the Law. But most folk are well aware that not fancying a law is even less defence when it comes to breaking a law, and on top of that, being seen and caught.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ?

Am not proud of your attitude at all but at least you learned something from the good folk of SACRO.

But what would you be like now if you hadn’t been hauled in to the police station to explain yourself ?

Would your ignorance and foolhardiness have stayed with you for the rest of your life and through your working career ?

You have been blessed. God moves in mysterious ways. I hope this lesson has not fallen on stoney ground.

Make sure you use your law degree,your oportunities and most importantly, your experience in the most positve way possible. Do not waste this.

joannie

@Robert Peffers – like I said, you could characterize any ex colony’s fight for independence in the same way you do Ireland’s and if you want to view history through that Imperialist lens, that’s up to you. Its a bit ironic to see a Scottish nationalist buy into British establishment propaganda about the Irish, but its no skin off anyone’s nose but your own.

Reluctant Nationalist

@ Robert J Sutherland, re: the BEF in 1940

You certainly know your stuff.

Episodes 2 and 3 of ‘World at War’ – “Distant War”, and “France Falls” – are also good for illustrating much of the info you’ve pointed out, I’d hope you agree.

Ghillie

Hey there Cactus !

Aye, Scotland always = )

Have a lovely Monday pet !

William Wallace

If bigotry kin be beat withoot laws, then how come it’s been so rampant on the west coast o Scotland ah this time. It’s no jist the futba either. It’s cultural, familial and historical tae. It’s aboot time that Scotland eradicated this pish once and for all.

What’s really bathered me this last week or so is the attempted normalisation o the OO on the bbc and elsewhere. (It shows just how much control the UK state has in controlling media output).

Are we really gonna hae to go back there or are the muppet crew gonnae lift themselves up into the 21st century alang wi the rest o us. Hiv we tae drag them kicking and screaming or what?

In international terms it’s an absolute fkin embarrassment and stain on Scotland’s international reputation. Pit it tae bed ya neanderthalic halfwits.

Come and join us eh!

Cactus

Ghillie.

I LOVE YOU.

MWAH!!!

Cactus

X.

Cactus

I LOVE SCOTLAND.

There’s the truth.

Xo you?

Cactus

I don’t throw love around lightly.. ah mean it.

Cactus

Do you?

Cactus

Hey Ghillie.

It’s still Sunday.

Ah’ll always love ye.

Ye can’t change love, it’s irreversible.

Think about that holiday Monday, till then…

We’re still partying.

We’re honda three day bender.

Dig it.

Cactus

From the bottom of the well..

Ahm Airborne.

Ahm born.

Are you?

Just like you.

Ghillie

Cactus,

Love you too = )

You make us all smile 🙂

Love Scotland always xxx

David

God bless Audie Murphy the 24 hour cowboy lol

Cactus

Fuck yeah!

Let’s get rocked!

Love Scotland X.

Elle-ess-ex.

Cactus

Ozzy…

Welcome to the 17th of July.

What a day.

What a number.

Ur welcome.

What’s the morning gonna bring..?

Cactus

Be alive.

Nite nite.

Morning mornin’.

Meg merrilees

Just wanted Cactus to know he’s not the only one still awake.
Have been doing paperwork – groan.
Didn’t realise it was so late until I looked out the window and saw the light!

Wonder what today’s Brexit round 2 will bring?

Especially after Barnier has held discussions with Nicola, Carwyn and Jeremy Corbyn.

Off for some sleep. Nt Nt, Cactus

Az

It’s sair fecht.

But it dizny hurt.

Much 😉

Jack Collatin

England has pulled up the drawbridge, and filled their moat with flesh eating fishies, and fucked off on holiday for 3 months.
Brexit? What Brexit?
Nothing to see here. Move on or you’ll get arrested for disturbing the M-Peace.
Arguably the biggest constitutional and economic crisis to hit England since Harold burnt the cakes, and 560 odd English MP’s pack their buckets and spades and head off to warmer climes.
There’s denial and then there’s head in the sands of the Costas.

Ken500

Illegal Partition of Ireland 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928.. Not for Catholics in NI. In parts of Belfast Catholics were denied the vote up to the 1960’s. Ie they could not vote because they were Catholic. Total illegal discrimination. Bernadette Devlin. The Catholics were denied public housing and jobs. 90% of public jobs went to Protestants. The ‘handshake’. Totally corruptly and illegally. Supported by Westminster Unionists for votes at Westminster.

Ireland was illegally Partitioned by Lloyd George. Breaking all Laws on Human rights and self determination. League of Nations established after the 1WW? A Home Rule Bill ( Land issues – a land league) was supposed to be passed in Westminster two weeks after the start of the 1WW. This was delayed set aside for the duration of the war, by agreement. A nationalist battalion fought in the 1WW with the Allies. Even though they want HomeRule/Independence. The Protestant refused to fight with them in the same Battalion. There was total discrimination

There was a mass Home Rule campaign in Ireland throughout the 19C. Lead by Charles Stewart Parnell. A Protestant landowner. Protestants were the only ones with any rights, to land, position of power etc. It was 1861 before Catholics were allowed any civil rights to stand for Parliament. The majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule/Independence because of the affect Westminster rule was having in Ireland. The Famine not relieved. Millions dying. Migration to the US etc as the only escaped. Food was still being exported from Ireland by unionist landowners even as the Irish were dying in their hundreds of thousands. Poverty, ill health and injustice. The cruel put down of peaceful demonstration by the British State. Killing innocent people. The cruelty of the Black and Tans. The NI unionists used the 1WW to illegally import arms. Nearly via Scottish ports. Captain Crawford backed up by the British State. The British army based in Ireland were party to the illegal activities. They did not put down the division. Based in Stormont Castle. An army of occupation. One was assassinated. Led to terrible reprisals.

Similar to Scotland in the 19C Not allowed to carry sword’s. Own land or a horse. (Wear tartan) Scotland has gone through the Ballot Box because people could. In Ireland Catholics were denied the vote. They took to arms, as a last resort. The British State manipulation in Ireland is an injustice. There for the world to acknowledge. The same in Scotland but people could go through the Ballot box. Unlike Ireland where people were denied the vote and totally discriminated against. They still are in NI. A Law to itself. Breaking every Law in the book of descrimination backed up by Unionists in Westminster for Unionists votes. Breaking U.K./International Law. Totally illegal. Backed up illegally by UK taxpayers. The IR has a much more successful economy.

NI (1.8 million) gets a settlement of £42Billion. How much do they raise in revenues? – Less than £28Billion. Funded to Norwegian levels. To keep the Protestant bigots and racists quiet. Continuing to carry out their illegal activities. Never held to account. A Facist State. The 12th of July in NI is just an absolute disgrace. A campaign of bigotry, hatred and racism backed up by Unionists at Westminster, An affront to equality, civility and the rule of Law.

Fred

@ Mike, Crack Troops then?

@ Jack, it was Alfred wot burnt the cakes!

Hoolets have been busy, forgot this was the Ferr!

Fred

@ Boris, the bulk of the Scottish electorate didn’t swallow any of this Tory pish, it’s hardly the SNP’s fault that there are so many stupid bastards/unionists in parts of this country!

Jack Collatin

Fred, I know, I know. I’ve just seen the Canadians off at the airport after two intense weeks ‘familying’.
It came as a greta surprise to them that two suppers from the chippie didn’t cost £24.80. (Chewin ‘ The Fat.)
I’m still in the ‘re-entry’ period when I don’t need to lock the bathroom door again.
That wee rabble rouser Kelly will do it to me every time.
A disgusting little man on any level.
Harald was the one who got severe migraine when an arrow zapped him in the eye?

Robert Louis

Jack Collatin at 0556 am,

Good point. Given the absolute dire state of the UK economy, and the utterly destructive effects we already have from the insanity called brexit, I cannot fathom how ANY politician can even contemplate going on holiday.

The media is not really giving it proper coverage, but brexit is already trashing the economy of the entire UK. The way of life which people currently have, will soon be gone, we are ALL going to be much poorer whether you have a job or not, and all for what? I mean seriously, can somebody tell me what the almighty benefit of leaving the EU actually is?

Angry at both Labour AND the SNP for going along with this utter insanity. Their is NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD BREXIT DEAL. NOT NOW, NOT EVER, AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR SCOTLAND.

Anybody who says such a thing can be achieved is just a bare faced liar or a complete idiot of truly epic proportions.

The EU keeps saying ‘the clock is ticking’, and they are right, but in a different way, the clock is ticking on the day arriving very soon, when the UK economy starts dropping like a stone. Once it starts, it will never end. It will be the mother of all economic disasters.

Ken500

There are now phoney unelected Tory representation in Scotland. Not democracy, Breaking all rules of democratic process. Illegal and contemptible by the unelected (in Scotland) Westminster Unionists breaking Scottish/UK/International Law. A total affront to democracy. Trying to bring the economy down.

The UK is a facist state. The Tories are an international disgrace. A laughing stock. Trying to ruin the world economy to line their own pockets. A absolute disgrace.A lame duck farce of crooked, corrupt individuals. Just a question of how much longer can this farce continue. Killing and maiming millions wasting £Billions of public money on groteque projects of no value. £Trns in debt. Totally clueless. The unionists liars. Corrupting the Scottish political system. Most of them should be in jail. Chinless wonders. Not nice and dim.

GC

I fully support independence for Scotland. I believe that we will become a prosperous, forward looking and democratic country.
I ask the proponents of the OB Act one question:- Give one instance where someone has been convicted under the Act whose offences could not have been prosecuted under pre-existing statutes.
I submit that there are none.
The Scottish Govt panicked in the aftermath of the “shame game” (Celtic v Rangers March 2011) and felt it had to be seen to ‘do something’. The OB Act has been sternly criticised by judges as it demands that the police are asked to make a judgement on what is “offensive”. I had a Che Guevara banner at a game and the steward asked a cop if IT was offensive. Come on. Btw the cop ‘didnt know’.
Any rowdy or violent behaviour can easily and more decisively prosecuted under other legilation. Look at how many prosecutions under the act fail to achieve convictions.
The arguments above re indy, the Orange Order, etc etc are irrelevant. The act was drafted and passed in haste, it has caused unnecessary confusion and has achieved nothing in terms of reducing antisocial or bigotted behaviour. Its time it was repealed.

Ken500

Brexit will cost more for less rights. The Tories are wasting £Billions of public money. To line their and their cronies pockets in schemes of no value. illegally defrauding the public purse. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow Trident etc. The EU is a diversion for them. A distraction so they can do their worst. They have already mucked up the world economy wilh illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. They now hope to continue on that course. To destroy lives and communities. Especially in Scotland, if they are not stopped.

In Scotland there is an alternative as over 50%+ realise. Independence in the EU which is coming soon. To end this undemocratic farce of an unequal union. Getting rid of the unelected, illegal sycophants that go with it. To have a more equal, fairer, happier more prosperous country. Not a union with a facist, illegal State. Breaking all International Laws and convention and getting away with it. Keeping the criminality and corruption under the Official Secrets Act. Instead of justice.

Seumas

As a Celtic supporter of near 40 years, I well remember the days of out and out sectarian, bigoted & offensive behaviour because I admit to indulging in it at the height of the Troubles in Irelands 6 northern counties in particular. Now, for me, its all about 90 mins of support for the club, the players and management with maybe some berating of opposition fans, players & referee thrown in for good measure.
I do support what the OBAF Act is attempting to but it needs better definition of what is merely “innappropriate” behaviour, like singing songs of a political nature, and what is offensive, stuff related to others politics, religion, ethnicity or sexual preference. The Act leaves it to individual officers to decide on the spot and i think this is where many attempted convictions falter. If it takes a list of permissable songs, then that should be the way forward.
For those who want to sing about their political opinions beliefs i suggest keeping them for an appropriate venue, plenty of opportunity in pubs and clubs to share these beliefs. I love the songs of Irish freedom but i also understand people pay into football to watch their team not hear my beliefs, so I respect that, sadly, respect is in short supply in football.

Ps, for those still calling it the “Old Firm” I suggest you read up on the laws on liquidation of companies/businesses, the “Old Firm” no longer exists no matter how much the new Ibrox club brainwashes you.

Fred

U can’t fight the Brexit catastrophe until un-committed Scots realise exactly the nature & scale of this catastrophe.
The Tories refought the referendum at the General Election & lost, how we fare at Indyref2 only Brexit will tell.

@Jack, “Fish & visitors go off after three days!” Benjamin Franklin.

Robert Peffers

@joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:39 am:

“@Robert Peffers – like I said, you could characterize any ex colony’s fight for independence in the same way you do Ireland’s and if you want to view history through that Imperialist lens, that’s up to you. Its a bit ironic to see a Scottish nationalist buy into British establishment propaganda about the Irish, but its no skin off anyone’s nose but your own.”

Are you for real?

Not only have I quoted for you the 100% correct history of how Ireland, and the rest of Britain, descended into centuries of sectarianism that not only dominated the political events in Britain but I nailed it where it belongs. Jointly at the door of the English monarchy, the English parliament and the Holy Roman Se.

There is absolutely nothing that you, or anyone else, can produce that will make that history different. Yet here you are accusing me of buying into, “BRITISH (sic), propaganda.

You are the one that has been sold, and swallowed whole, the ENGLISH parliaments Westminster propaganda and as yet have failed to digested it.

The whole truth is that, in the first instance, the Holy Roman Se. Which at that time was the only Christian religious body decided to interfere in the Irish Kingdom’s religious beliefs.

Rome appointed the King of England as Lord of Ireland in an effort to convert the native Irish to Christianity and the Norman Conquest of Ireland began. That was under Henry II of England. Until we get to Henry VIII most of Britain was just Christian as there was no protestant sects of Christianity.

Henry VIII split with Rome because of his lifestyle and his divorces and executions of his many wives. So Henry declared himself the head of the Christian Church in England and then tried to force all of Britain into accepting the King of England as the head of the Christian Religion i.e. he created the Protestant sect of the Christian Church he, “Protested”, against the Church of Rome and made himself Head of the, “Protestant”, sect of Christianity.

British politics and life has been dominated by sectarianism ever since and every major political event since then has involved sectarianism and it has killed millions of the people of Britain. Note that Theresa May has just decided to take the OO as her partners at Westminster.

Yet you imagine I have been fooled into accepting Westminster propaganda? Sheesh!

I nearly said, “You couldn’t make that up”, but you just did make it up and posted here on wings.

There is absolutely no doubt that sectarianism began in Britain when Rome appointed the King of England as Lord of Ireland and his successors later had themselves declared Kings of Ireland and that is still, (the mainly Irish), sectarianism we face in Scotland’s streets today with Orange Order Marches and a Treaty of Union that begins by prohibiting Catholics from the throne.

Note I have no religion and thus no religious axe to grind.

Ken500

Private sports clubs are supported with £Millions of public money, being chronically mismanaged. Crooks drainig these organisations with loaded debt. Defrauding the punters. They should obey the Law or else. Everyone else is expected to, except Unionists politicians who get away with murder, Either obey the Law or lose the public funding,

The taxpayers have had enough of this affront to common decency going on for years. An excuse for racist, bigoted and nuisance behaviour by a small minority. They are not just defrauding and maiming others, They expect everyone else to pay for the illegal behaviour. To damage the economy and make everyone else worst off. Paying for policing and criminal damage. Some sport. These Clubs and Association are licences by the Gov, to obey the rules.

Jack Collatin

@ Fred: ‘Fish and visitors’. Brill.
I love them dearly,but.
Something like our English neighbours.
They can overstay their welcome, by 310 years.

Macart

RE: Brexit

The Scottish Government isn’t the government of an independent Scotland, not yet.

People need to remember they are as bound by the legalities of the treaty of union and the Scotland Bill as you can possibly be and NOT by their choosing. They can’t simply declare ‘now way Jose’ and refuse to budge and it doesn’t matter if that’s exactly the right ethical/logical call either. The law and especially constitutional law in a democracy, doesn’t care about how right you are, but about whether you can or have enough popular legitimacy to speak for, or legislate for, your population. The SNP are, beyond anything else, democrats who passionately believe in the sovereignty and will of the Scottish electorate. They work to the will and popular mandate of that electorate.

The last constitutional question they themselves asked, the majority told them to abide by the union. Until THAT result is overturned, they and the powers and will of the Scottish electorate are bound by the political union and the Scotland bill. Our parliamentary powers and choices limited in the face of UK ballots (see under democratic deficit). Again, NOT their choice. The majority of the Scottish electorate made that choice. Nor did the SG invite an EU ref, though in Scotland they made their case for remain far more eloquently and effectively than Mr Cameron as the national result bore out. Which kinda brings us to where we are now… a constitutional crisis, and international legal omnishambles and pending economic cliff.

What they can do is use what laws and powers they have access to, which will ensure another ballot where the Scottish electorate get to have their say. In our current SNP bad climate though, this also means they are even forced to make the case for offering their own population a choice which others would almost certainly deny them. In point of fact they HAVE been actively trying to thwart the SNP government from offering our population that choice. That’s pretty much just how fucked up our political class and our media are in a nutshell.

We’re dealing with national, constitutional and international law here, in a scenario which has never before occurred. To paraphrase the FM, ‘it is without precedent’. The FM’s old day job being a solicitor and all, I’m going with she knows what she’s talking about. Which effectively means, it isn’t just a single iceberg out there it’s an entire ice flow.

However frustrating it is, you have a Scottish government bound by the choices their population made. Unlike UK gov though, they’ve never hidden the fact they disagreed with the choice that majority made and are moving heaven and earth, using every legal and democratic channel open to them to fight on two constitutional fronts with only a fraction of the powers of a central government. They’re tackling an ideologically intransigent and tribal political opposition, a corrupt and broken central government, an antagonistic media and a divided society labouring under decades of political abuse and mass media brainwashing.

Could we possibly add another degree of difficulty at this point? ‘Cause, y’know, clearly the ‘day job’ isn’t nearly complex enough.

Personally, I’d say that anything positive they have achieved in the face of all that over the past few years must surely constitute yer akchul miracle.

joannie

I know the history Robert, where you are buying into British state propaganda is when you say things like this…

“The Old IRA were Irish United Kingdom subjects who were using violence against other Irish United Kingdom subjects.”

You could characterize any country who fought for their independence the same way – Washington’s men were British subjects using violence against other British subjects, the Indian Mutiny was British subjects using violence against other British subjects, etc etc. And the logic of that train of thought is Imperialist, it means no country which is being held against its will by military force is allowed to take up arms in their own cause. You also seem to think that you’re somehow justified in saying The Boys of the Old Brigade is sectarian. You aren’t and it isn’t.

Robert Peffers

@Seumas says: 17 July, 2017 at 7:52 am:

“Ps, for those still calling it the “Old Firm” I suggest you read up on the laws on liquidation of companies/businesses, the “Old Firm” no longer exists no matter how much the new Ibrox club brainwashes you.”

So, Seumas, you did not read my, up-thread, true history of the birth of Celtic FC?

The truth is that Hearts & Hibs were in existence before Celtic FC was instigated and Celtic FC was sponsored and modelled upon Hibernian FC that predates the start of Celtic.

Not only was Celtic modelled on Hibs but the name of the Club was originally proposed to be Glasgow Hibernian to distinguish it from Edinburgh Hibernian, (Hibs originated in Edinburgh – Not Leith).

In fact Celtic first took to the field in the green and white hooped strip of Hibs that was gifted to them by the established Hibs Football club. There are photos of a Hibs Scottish Cup winning team and they are wearing a green and white hooped strip.

Incidentally the Hibs also had a hand in setting up several other Scottish football clubs, Dundee is one of them.

So there you go – Celtic & Rangers never were the original Auld Firm for Hibs and Hearts were established rivals before them.

Another historic fact is that it was due to Hearts FC that the Hibs club was accepted by the Scottish football authorities that had previously officially barred teams from RC clubs composed of Irish immigrants.

Hearts, to their credit, ignored the authorities ban and played matches with Hibs and the football authorities caved in and stopped discrimination.

Isn’t it surprising that stanch supporters of football clubs just do not know their own club’s true history?

Ken500

Catholics in NI were denied the vote right up until the 1960’s by rabid facist Protestants backed up by the British State. Disobeying every UK/International Law. After the illegal Partition of Ireland. A majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule/Indepenendence because of the chronic illegal mismanaged of the economy by the British State. Bringing poverty, death, destruction and misery to millions who had to migrate. NI unionists a Law unto themselves. Getting £Billions of UK taxpayers to keep them quiet. To support their illegal activity. Ruining their own economy and the world economy. Now getting voted out. The demographics mean Ireland could vote to reunite, supported by a majority.

If people want to see where the Scottish Oil revenues went over the sea to NI. To under pin corruption on every scale. Financed to Norwegian levels. While Scotland was deprived. Kept secret under the Officials Secrets Act. UK Gov offences in Ireland for unionist votes in Westminster.

colin alexander

@Robert Peffers

You said:

“Rome appointed the King of England… to convert the native Irish to Christianity and the Norman Conquest of Ireland began. That was under Henry II of England.”

Henry II reigned: 1133 – 1189

Early Christian missionaries, such as St Patrick: 381 – 465.

Over 700 years earlier.

Thus, the Papal Bull ( a public declaration by the pope) wasn’t to convert the Irish to Christianity, but to enforce Roman Catholic Gregorian reforms on the semi-autonomous Celtic Christian church in Ireland, to bring them into line with the church in Rome.

That pope who issued the papal bull for Henry II’s invasion has been the only pope from England.

Breeks

Macart say @ 9:08

“…The last constitutional question they themselves asked, the majority told them to abide by the union. Until THAT result is overturned, they and the powers and will of the Scottish electorate are bound by the political union and the Scotland bill. Our parliamentary powers and choices limited in the face of UK ballots (see under democratic deficit). Again, NOT their choice. The majority of the Scottish electorate made that choice. Nor did the SG invite an EU ref, though in Scotland they made their case for remain far more eloquently and effectively than Mr Cameron as the national result bore out. Which kinda brings us to where we are now… a constitutional crisis, and international legal omnishambles and pending economic cliff…”

So how do you resolve the Brexit referendum where a majority of Sovereign Scots elected to stay in Europe, with no elected majority or mandate for Westminster to force Brexit upon Scotland without the explicit subjugation of Scottish Sovereignty? By what authority do they “negotiate” our exit contrary to our expressed sovereign will to stay?

The people are sovereign and chose to stay in Europe. Westminster and Holyrood are constitutionally bound to accept it, or articulate how they confound and get around the issue of Scottish sovereignty. The people are sovereign, not Holyrood, nor Westminster.

Democracy in this specific instance of constitutional uncertainty is a placebo. It is the appropriate interpretation of constitutional law that will deliver Scotland from this Union.

Brexit and this issue of Scottish Sovereignty is a prime example of an unenforceable contract being unenforceable, a contract which professes to do a thing that cannot properly be done, and an unenforceable contract is a void contract.

Our 2014 YES referendum was fundamentally flawed, because only voting YES was consistent with an expression of sovereignty. Voting NO was not a competent constitutional option because we cannot vote away our sovereignty.

Next referendum, let’s make ALL the options on the ballot constitutionally deliverable eh?

Sovereignty is a double edge sword. It empowers us to make a decision which cannot be overruled, but it equally denies others the power and/or legitimacy to force their decisions on to us.

We can bumble around inside our own Border til the cows come home, trying to convince ourselves we’re not sovereign when we are, because we still remain sovereign even if we don’t understand it and believe the delusion that we’re not.

It is one thing to delude ourselves about sovereignty, but it is something altogether different and more sinister when a “foreign” Nation professes to have the casting vote over our sovereignty, and can bind us to their will when it is contrary to our own. That is what is happening to Scotland in the UK.

If we weren’t the deluded idiots trying on every size of sovereignty except the size that actually fits, then Westminster would not be chancing its arm even to attempt to overrule our sovereign voice.

It is a fallacy perpetuated by democrats to believe we Scots can elect to put our own sovereignty beyond our reach. It just isn’t true.

Petra

Apologies if this has been posted on here already. Apologies too if it’s going to make your blood boil, like mine. This is what we’re up against. I don’t have a gripe with anyone using Freedom of Information requests, far from it, but when we know that the data is often also being used to suppress, cherry-pick, information, twist facts, lie through omission and so on and isn’t compared fairly with statistics south of the border then yes my blood IS boiling.

MORE THAN TWO THOUSAND FoI requests were made to the Scottish Government last year alone to the point that ”it has the potential to seriously impact on the work of government.” The individuals listed below should be hanging their heads in shame. The very individuals that we can’t seem to be able to do anything about from the BBC ignoring complaints to the paper tiger known as IPSO.

‘The National Union of Journalists has backed a joint letter by several journalists and NUJ chapels expressing serious concern at the way the Scottish Government has been treating Freedom of Interest requests from the media…………………………….’

‘The Scottish Government insisted that its records were maintained in accordance with all relevant records’ management legislation and practice. “Scotland has the most open and far-reaching freedom of information laws in the UK,” said a spokeswoman.
“We take our responsibility for FoI seriously and in the large majority of cases we respond on time and in full. At the same time, the increasing volume and complexity of some requests can prove time-consuming, and has the potential to seriously impact on the work of government.”

The spokeswoman pointed out that the number of FoI requests was steadily increasing. There were more than 2,000 requests last year, and more received in the first three months of 2017 than in the whole of 2007. She added: “We are working with the commissioner to ensure we continue to provide information in as timely a way as possible, while continuing to look for opportunities to proactively release information.”’

link to nujscotland.org.uk

………………………………………………

It is signed by journalists including Severin Carrell (The Guardian), Tom Gordon (The Herald), James McEnaney (freelance), Daniel Sanderson (The Times), Andrew Picken (Sunday Post), Chris Diamond on behalf of the BBC NUJ chapel, Bernard Ponsonby on behalf of the STV NUJ chapel, David Clegg (Daily Record), Michael Blackley (Daily Mail Scotland), Paul Hutcheon (Sunday Herald), Kieran Andrews (The Courier), Simon Johnson (The Telegraph) and Ian Dunn (Scottish Catholic Observer).

It has also been signed by Billy Briggs, Fiona Davidson, Rob Edwards, Peter Geoghegan, Rachel Hamada and Layla-Roxanne Hill of The Ferret and Angela Haggerty, Nathanael Williams, David Jamieson and Michael Gray of CommonSpace.

link to commonspace.scot

stu mac

@Robert Peffers says:
17 July, 2017 at 8:34 am
@joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:39 am:
=============================================

I”m shocked that someone who normally seems so well informed historically should post something so full of errors. For example:

The whole truth is that, in the first instance, the Holy Roman See. Which at that time was the only Christian religious body decided to interfere in the Irish Kingdom’s religious beliefs.

A small point maybe but there was also the Greek Orthodox church (which had its offshoot the Russian Orthodox) and further east the Coptic and Syrian churches which though later diminished survived despite Islamic rule to this day. Of course in those days they were too far away geographically and politically to have any influence on Western Europe politics.

Rome appointed the King of England as Lord of Ireland in an effort to convert the native Irish to Christianity and the Norman Conquest of Ireland began

Ireland had been converted to Christianity during the 5th and 6th centuries (AD) – remember St Patrick (though he was from Dumbarton). In fact Christianity was introduced to Scotland and then England by Irish (and later Scots) missionaries. The Pope’s reasons for supporting the English king would have been political as the pope then was seen as a wordly prince as well as a religious leader. When you wanted to go to war you tried to get him onside.

Henry declared himself the head of the Christian Church in England and then tried to force all of Britain into accepting the King of England as the head of the Christian Religion i.e. he created the Protestant sect of the Christian Church he, “Protested”, against the Church of Rome and made himself Head of the, “Protestant”, sect of Christian

Henry didn’t create the protestant sect – though you’re right of course that he made himself head of the church in England. Protestantism had been around for a while in Europe by that time – in fact Henry had written a then famous tract against the Lutheran reformers and received the title “Defender of the Faith” (F D as we see on our coinage) which he decided to keep when he broke away from the Roman Church.

His moves against Scotland were purely dynastic, he wanted to force a marriage which would eventually unite Scotland and England under one monarch but – this may have incidentally forced the Scottish (then still catholic) church under Royal control but it wasn’t his main interest, that was power.

Jack Collatin

Macart@9.08
Excellent, sir.
How they would love trouble to break out up here.
We do this by the book, our book mind.
Davidson Dugdale and Rennie are IMV enemies of the Scottish people by not acknowledging that Scotland is a distinct nation, at the moment in a political partnership with three other nations on these isles, and can choose dissolution of this political construct at any time.
All that is required is the political will of the people for Self Determination to happen.
It’s com