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The Victim

Posted on July 16, 2017 by

Deep in the summer news desert, the papers today are struggling for material again. The Sunday Herald has a shock-horror front-page exposé about some photos from an Orange Lodge party that turn out to be from 2010 and 2013, while the Scottish Mail On Sunday reaches all the way back to 1940 to fill a couple of pages.

But the Sunday Mail’s timing is even weirder.

Because the Mail has chosen a week when sectarian bigots in Northern Ireland burned effigies of Catholics, attached racist and homophobic banners to bonfires and hurled glass bottles at Celtic players to run this.

Whenever we’ve debated the overwhelmingly popular Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act with people who consider it the greatest affront to civil liberty ever committed by mankind, we always ask the same question and never get an answer:

“Who are the innocents whose lives you claim are being ruined by the Act?”

Nobody has ever been able to identify for us a single actual living human who has been subjected to any notable injustice by the Act, and if the Sunday Mail’s attempt today (we strongly recommend clicking the image above to enlarge and read the whole story) is the best anyone can come up with, we can understand why.

The Celtic-supporting student freely admits being guilty of the charge under which he was arrested: singing a song glorifying the IRA at a 2015 away game in Kilmarnock, apparently believing a tale of political slaughter in what’s now a foreign country 100 years ago to have some relevance to a Scottish football match.

Bizarrely the article doesn’t actually tell us whether his case ever came to court, but we do learn that he wasn’t convicted, and that being charged saw him undertake an anti-sectarianism workshop with community justice organisation Sacro, which led him to change his behaviour.

“By the end I was clear about what I’d done wrong and why. I won’t do it again.”

Sounds like a happy outcome, doesn’t it? Without the Act he’d never have been charged, never gone to the workshop, never learned what he’d done wrong and still be drunkenly bellowing sectarian hatred at bemused Kilmarnock fans now. But expressly because of the existence of the Act those things DID happen, he didn’t get a criminal record and his life (and everyone else’s) has only been affected positively.

The Mail’s strapline of “BIGOTRY CAN BE BEATEN WITHOUT LAWS”, then, sits above a story proving the exact opposite of that. It was ONLY because of the OBFA that “Paul” found himself confronting what he’d done and becoming a better person, at no discernible cost to himself. Everybody won.

The piece bemoaning that outcome tells us a lot more about the state of Scotland and its media in 2017 than we wish it did. These are dispiriting times.

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  1. 16 07 17 12:57

    The Victim | speymouth

451 to “The Victim”

  1. Wired of Hermiston

    “The piece tells us a lot more about the state of Scotland and its media in 2017”

    Nope. It tells us a lot more about the state of the Sunday Mail in 2017.

  2. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Nope. It tells us a lot more about the state of the Sunday Mail in 2017.”

    The entire media is set bitterly against the OBFA.

  3. Robert Louis

    The entire ‘scottish’ media and the British Labour party in Scotland oppose the obscene behaviour at football act, simply because it was introduced by the SNP.

    It is that f******g ridiculous.

    As pointed out above, the general public want the sectarianism and racist behaviour associated with football stopped. They overwhlemingly support the act, as do football fans, including those in the rangers and celtic.

    No doubt if the act gets repealed, in a few months time, the very same self serving ‘scottish’ media and morons within the British Labour party in Scotland, will start bellowing that it is a disgrace that the Scottish Government has done nothing to stop this obscene behaviour at football matches. That is EXACTLY what led to the act in the first place – something conveniently forgotten by the so-called ‘scottish’ media.

    Such is the moronic nonsense of the British Labour party in Scotland, and the anti SNP and anti Scotland ‘scottish’ media.

    Why the greens support its repeal, is truly beyond me.

  4. Robert J. Sutherland

    Oh dear, here we go again. Reading the article, the poor put-upon fan still doesn’t seem to get it (and neither obviously does the Sunday Heil). “Paul” claims simultaneously that his career could have been wrecked because he broke this law, yet also claims that there are other laws under which he could have been convicted anyway!

    Which all amounts to special pleading and an implied “I would have got away with this kind of thing before so why can’t I now?”

    Which is the bottom line. If the available law had been properly enforced before, this kind of thing would be history by now. But no thanks to that stalwart idit Kelly, sectarianism is now finally being challenged. And high time too.

  5. rigmac

    Is that simply because it reduces “good” headlines for them and they have to create “good” headlines using it instead?

    Must be some richt guid chanters among the upper echelons of Scottish media who are scunnered at not being able to partake in their traditional old sing alongs on a match day.

  6. geeo

    The media hate the OBFA because it has an effect on how they promote the Scottish game via hate and bigotry.

    They have ALWAYS stirred up the religious angle because they know it sells copy.

    It is no co-incidence the Daily Record is called “The Daily Ranger” AND “The Daily Rhebel” at the same time.

  7. Street Andrew

    I guess there’s a fear that if offensive behaviour is banned at football matches it could be the thin end of the wedge and then all manner of offensive behaviour would be outlawed.

    This could seriously infringe the rights of the free press to make a living since offensive reporting is a significant aspect of their modus operandi.

    It is one of the basic rights in a civilised country that we a press which is free (of responsibility). This would explain why the press is allowed to be self regulating.

  8. joannie

    Maybe I need one of these sectarian workshops too because I don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Unless it has different connotations when sung in Scotland than it does here its merely a song celebrating Irish independence.

  9. Bob Mack

    Bigotry can be beaten without laws. However, it requires a mindset where you question your own values as well as those around you. It is much easier and indeed safer, to follow those around you and slot into the mob mentality than to stand up for what you believe to be a “red line”.

    It takes strength of character.

    I follow fan forum and believe me, when anyone dares to question the values of the majority they are howled down in derision, and more often than not ,they simply fall back into a general concensus.

    Unfortunately the ability to stand against bigotry in any form is the realm of the minority who contribute to discussion, which therefore makes it inevitable that for now laws are most definitely required to enforce or at least try to enforce an end to the hate, spite and malice that pervades the game up here in Scotland.

    Whilst reading a Celtic forum I came across contributions from Celtic fans denouncing Rangers and Linfield fans reaction to the events at Windsor Park. Many of the contributions were as vitriolic and vile as those they were condemning. “To see ourselves as others see us” .

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Maybe I need one of these sectarian workshops too because I don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Unless it has different connotations when sung in Scotland than it does here its merely a song celebrating Irish independence.”

    Awesome work. Presumably you were a big fan of BBC NI’s coverage of the 12th of July “celebrations” too, then?

  11. Camz

    Old Firm games generally cause trouble, which make great paper fillers, which sell papers, which give politicians a reason to fill their days with ‘tut tut’ comments for the media. Circular wage maker.

    It’s about money for little effort for a media with pre-written headlines, and politicians with pre-written speeches, and with much-practiced hand wringing.

    (And some of them just revel in the trouble from a safe place)

    They basically argue for the right to be bastards, while accusing the SNP of being that for trying to stop them.

  12. Capella

    Seems to bear out the old adage:
    A Liberal is a Tory who’s been arrested.

    By his reasoning, it would be unfair to arrest one or two shoplifters if they were in a group of a hundred all stealing at once.

    Suddenly, alternatives to a custodial sentence and a criminal record are paramount. I wonder which branch of law he intends to practice.

  13. Dr Jim

    The trouble with being intolerant about intolerance is nobody seems to want to tolerate it and would rather defend the indefensible by making inaudible nonsensical gutteral gruntings at maximum volume

    Everybody Shuuut Uuup and leave things Alooonnne Stoap chaaangin things Damn SNP makin things better, don’t wannit

    Noo whaur did ah put my pigeon hat I musta left in oan the supporters bus

  14. Liz g

    It’s insane to repeal this law.
    For good or ill it’s there now…. everyone knows it’s there,and how to avoid breaking it.

    To repeal it, is to all intents and purposes declaring that we (society/government) were, wrong to address this issue and that this behaviour ….on second thoughts…is perfectly legal after all.
    Now that can’t be right…can it?

    I would actually personally like to see the law in Scotland go much farther.
    With a view to addressing the behaviour at the time,and,en mass.
    But without clogging up the justice system and costing “the people” any money.

    The aim of the law should be to cost “Ra people and the Bhoys” time and money.
    The new law’s could be created and be creative in and around the game.

    EG…A mandatory 3 minutes or longer stoppage, signalled by the authority of the match commander when these songs are heard!
    Apart from disrupting the flow of the game for everyone….it could really mess with transport if linked to a significant wating over time charges for the buses.
    A charge that will need to be picked up by the traveling fan’s.
    Also to prevent (if it’s a concern) this behaviour being used to stop the play to influence the results.
    Mibbi a two strikes and is a goal for the other side policy?
    Something like that could cost a club a title and the revenue that goes with it.

    The aim of this ?…..To “encourage”the club’s to do more,and to get the fan’s to self censure.
    Not forgetting helping to prevent those ” poor poor innocent ” fan’s getting a criminal record,by breaking the law that we weren’t stupid enough to remove in the first place.

    A clear signal from the Scottish electorate through their government….Up with this we will not put!

  15. Andy-B

    The murder, fitba, papers the Daily Record and the Sunday Mail, are firmly opposed to any progress being made in Scotland, whether it be against sectarianism or independence.

    Or just about anything else that upsets the status quo.

  16. gordoz

    Spot on piece again Rev Stu.

    Sick to the back teeth of all bigotry. So embarrassed by all of it. Detest idiots like Labours James Kelly; no more than an opportunist numpty. Cant get my head around old firm fans ‘United’ attempts to bin this legislation, wreckless madness of the highest order.
    Was a fan of the old firm once and thought they were emerging from the swamp and evolving towards more normalized tribal rivalry traditions; it will never happen whilst remaining part of this discredited ‘Unionist’ political construct called GB.

    Rangers and the Orange connection are by far the worst in my opinion but plenty of idiots on the Celtic side also.
    Would be delighted to see the back of both for the sake of our football in the long run. (Never thought I’d write that in the past). Grow up folks and support your local team.

    The North British Media really is an irresponsible industry in its entirety. Only a handful (at most) of decent writers & commentators, the rest hacks of the worst sensationalist order, with only a juvenile sense of care for the readers.

    Binning this legislation would be real folly and cuddling right up to true blue Brexit ideology. Typical Daily Record & Sunday Mail. Never finish David Clegg’s guff.

  17. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Cant get my head around old firm fans ‘United’ attempts to bin this legislation, wreckless madness of the highest order.”

    Always remember that despite how it’s presented in the media, a large majority of Celtic and Rangers* fans support the Act.

  18. colin alexander


    I think it’s because of these lyrics:

    “When, being just a boy like you,
    I joined the I.R.A”.

    It’s the other side of the coin of the Famine Song and the Billy Boys.

    They have nothing to do with fitba’.

  19. Joemcg

    The Sunday Herald front page story about the ludges fancy dress proclivities is even more eyebrow raising. Truly shocking but not entirely surprising concerning these cretins.

  20. heedtracker

    Its really just one more SNP bad weapon, in the BBC led UK media arsenal. Their endless war on Scottish democracy, well not endless, it’s going to end eventually.

    Wonder how:D

  21. G. Campbell

    Cat Boyd, the radical Scottish left’s most talented rapper*, revealed on Sunday Politics Scotland that she voted for Jeremy Corbyn at the general election. Annoyingly, I’ve no idea what constituency she lives in so I can’t tell you whether she managed to get a “narrow-minded careerist” elected or not.

    Cat Boyd: Jeremy Corbyn has my spiritual vote, but he simply cannot win this election
    23rd May 2017

    IF we were electing a president next month, US-style, I’d make my vote without a second thought. Jeremy Corbyn is the only Westminster party leader who remotely represents progress, and if I could elect him personally I’d be dancing all the way to the polling station.

    But technically I’m not electing a Prime Minister, in the way one would elect a president. And, likely, I would end up using my constituency vote for a narrow-minded careerist who will use every opportunity to plot against Corbyn regardless of the country’s or the Labour Party’s democratic wishes. Likely, I’d be electing another Ian Murray, and, if you’ll forgive the expression, with MPs like these, who needs enemies?

    Some problems aren’t anything to do with Corbyn, but instead represent British institutions he can’t shift despite his best efforts. Take Trident. Nobody can question his commitment to the issue. But the media establishment, and the Labour establishment, are committed British nationalists who want a Security Council seat on the cheap.

    * No harm meant to Loki, btw, who also voted for the hard brexit, pro-Trident Labour party, and can’t rap for toffee either.

  22. Peter. Edinburgh

    Colin Alexandra. You do realise the IRA in that line is the same IRA the Queen honoured a few years ago in Dublin? It seems the utter ignorance around this issue is still there.

    Remember, the OBAF Act is nothing to do with sectarianism. It is, as admitted by Christine Graham, when Convener of the Justice Committee, all about ‘evening things up’.

    And whilst the SNP government continue to allow Orange marches, then any suggestion that they wish to tackle sectarianism in this country, is taken with a huge pinch of salt.

  23. Ken500

    ‘Paul’ go off scotfree and didn’t destroy his Law degree. After breaking the Law. Just like thon Findlay for singing racist songs. Ruining the Scottish economy on a weekly basis. Costing taxpayers £Billions of wasted monies. Unlawful criminal behaviour supporting illegally bigotry and hatred. What has sport got to do with it? Private Sports clubs totally in debt after appalling mismanagement. Expecting public money to bail them out. Illegally getting public money to bail them out. Total hypocrites. They expect public sympathy. Unlikely. Mucking up the majority lives and causing inconvenience. An affront to others,

    The Police guarding racist, hooligan bigots every week. Instead of objecting to the illegal behaviour and objecting to the Marches. Complaining they have not got enough public money. Banned in most of Scotland. A bigoted, racist malicious, unequal, secret society taking over the streets every other week. Ruining the Scottish economy. Tax evaders and wasters not paying their taxes but being supported by £Billions of public money for Unionist votes at Westminster. All totally illegal. Westminster Unionists once again breaking the Law. Not supporting the society or community.

    The troll CA has been on the Herald defending the imcompetent, useless Tories. Another Tory liar.

  24. ClanDonald

    What really sickens me is that as soon as this legislation is overturned, not only will behaviour at football matches become instantly more offensive but the media won’t report any of it. They’ll have to pretend everything is hunky-dory or else admit that their efforts to overturn it have increased bigotry, vandalism and violence.

    Poor Rev will now have to do a weekly round-up so we can be properly informed.

  25. gus1940

    Rather than campaigning to repeal the OBFA would it not be better if The Branch Office’s PoliticaL Fireball James Kelly came up with amendments to the act to cure what he sees as its defects.

    Or does he not see any problems with crowd behaviour at football matches?

    Of course as must be obvious to any sentient being his agenda is just the usual Labour SNPbad nonsense.

  26. Ronnie

    Hailing from the northeast, the whole sectarian thing is completely baffling. Is this really still going on in 2017?

  27. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says:16 July, 2017 at 12:13 pm:

    “Maybe I need one of these sectarian workshops too because I don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Unless it has different connotations when sung in Scotland than it does here its merely a song celebrating Irish independence.”

    The song is about the IRA, Joannie and here is the official version of the lyrics – do you, perhaps, think this is the version sung by the Celtic fans?

    In any case, before Ireland was partitioned, the fighting was civil war and both sides were parts of the United Kingdom. Then came, “The Irish Free State”, which was legally a United Kingdom Dominion and thus still part of the United Kingdom.

    Since the Irish Free State declared UDI and became a Republic then the IRA were fighting in Northern Ireland and that makes them terrorists.

    Now none of that justifies the UKs armed forces going far beyond what reasonable people would call, “Peace Keeping”, and in both cases the celebration of past violence and killing cannot be justified.

    One group of football supporters glorifying the killing of Catholics at the Battle of the Boyne and the Other glorifying the killing o,f not just Protestants but also any innocent non-religious members of the public who happened to be in the way makes neither football team’s supporters any better than the other’s.

    Not to mention that these two teams are Irish playing in the Scottish Leagues. Berwick Rangers are an English team that plays in the Scottish leagues but you don’t hear them singing about killing the Scots at Culloden do you?

    “Oh father why are you so sad
    on this bright easter morn
    when Irishmen are proud and glad
    of the land where they were born
    Oh son I see sad memories
    of far off distant days
    when being just a lad like you
    I joined the IRA !

    Where are the lads who stood with me
    when histoy was made
    Ó grá mo chroí, I long to see
    The boys of the old brigade

    From hills and farms the call to arms
    was heard by one and all
    and from the glens came brave young men
    to answer Ireland’s call
    twas long ago we faced the foe
    the old brigade and me
    by my side they fought and died
    that Ireland might be free

    Where are the lads who stood with me
    when histoy was made
    Ó grá mo chroí, I long to see
    The boys of the old brigade

    and now my boy I’ve told you why
    on easter morn I sigh
    for I recall my comrades all
    from the dark old days gone by
    I think of men who fought in glens
    with rifles and grenade
    may heaven keep the men who sleep
    from the ranks of the old brigade “

  28. Ken500

    The great Independenitas EU supporter votes for Corbyn, but expects to be taken seriously. The Party of illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion, Trident, causing the migration crisis in Europe and ruining the world economy. Voting through or abstaining every Tory policies in Westminster when they could have brought the Tories down.

    The Offensive Football Act was taken in by Kenny McAskill and ? Cunningham to protect Catholics from aggression. After the Lennon/McCoist bust up. The boot is on the other foot.

    The Police have powers they could use if there was is a need. Instead of protecting Orange Marches and abuse of the public.

  29. JLT

    In some ways, we knew this was coming. Many of us highlighted it over the last 3 or 4 years that eventually, Scotland would fall into 2 camps – nationalist and unionist …and it is no surprise that the media bang out the ‘British’ ideology on a daily basis. But as said …we knew this was coming, and no we are right in the heart of it. How it will all pan out over the next few years is still up for debate. But the Westminster political Establishment are definitely throwing the kitchen sink at us at the moment.

    Theresa May’s deal with the DUP actually shows us just how far that (a) how desperate the British State is getting if it is getting into bed with those deluded far-right wing lunatics, and (b) that it has lost a tremendous amount of influence in Scotland that it has to go to levels of televising Orange Walks on the BBC as well as trying to make all things surrounding Orange traditions as though they were just a form of normality.

    Simply, they are not, and I got an example of it last Saturday.

    I was out on a works do last weekend (someone leaving the company), and amongst our contingent was a member of staff who has been a strong advocate of the ‘Remain’ side back in 2014. Inevitably, our paths crossed and the old debates arose once more. Having highlighted that since 2014, that every Unionist argument had been shown up to be a lie or a broken promise, the argument came to a resounding and startling stop when he exclaimed ‘I’m a Scottish Protestant!’

    To which I replied, ‘Aye, and so am I …so what? What’s that got to do with what we were discussing?’

    His answer was ‘Well, you ken what I’m talking about. Simply put, I’m not changing my ways; it’s as simple as that.’

    And there you have it. Scottish political debate summed up in 4 words – ‘I’m a Scottish Protestant!’. When pushed on it, he confirmed that he likes the Orange Order.

    Deciding to cut to the heart of it and end this nonsense once and for all, I asked one simple question – ‘Mate …that being the case, one simple question and please answer it because I’m curious …has the Orange Order benefitted your life in any way, shape or form? Tell me one positive thing that the Orange Order has done for you …personally. Has it benefitted you …yes or no? Answer the question’.

    The conversation literally ended at that point. Apart from a telling look in the eyes that answered that question for me, I was then told ‘Jamesie, get tae f***. Dinnae f****** start. Ah’m no answering ye, but aye it has’.

    Knowing I had him, I badgered him further on it by asking him to answer the question and how it had benefitted him, but all I got was more denial to the question with no answers. But that question had rattled him, and I knew it had provoked him to question his own outlook. And even though he knows the answer deep down, he will also deep down never change.

    This is one of the 30% of Scots who will never advocate independence or deny the Union …no matter how much his outlook is poisoned by it. He’s one of those that no matter how much you drag him into the light, they scurry back off into the darkness where ignorance is like a comfort blanket. In his eyes, the blame is elsewhere. Its better to target other people of different faiths, colour, alternative politics and even enlightenment …than admit that all the problems that seem to antagonise and infuriate him …are actually solely down to himself and a Union that endorses and promotes sectarianism, division, lies and apathy.

    That’s one of the real legacies of this Union that we all live under.

  30. heedtracker

    I don’t get how he was police ID’d out of a crowd of 4000, he says. If the Mail creeps have left out how this one man was known to the police like this, or at least someone next to or nearby him in the crowd, there’s something very not right about this.

    But it is the Mail reprobates so who knows.

  31. gus1940

    RE the Dunkirk story and the impending deluge of stiff upper lip triumphalism about a humiliating defeat I posted a comment a couple of weeks ago questioning the necessity of evacuation.

    I suggested that as they had the capability of evacuating 300k plus was it not possible that the same resources used to carry out the evacuation could have with the overwhelming superiority of The RN over The Kriegsmarine established an effective defensive perimeter around Dunkirk together with reinforcing and supplying it.

    The evacuation freed the German forces involved to fight The French Army and hastened the French collapse.

    Without these extra divisions France may have been able to fight on.

    In my post I questioned why nobody seems to have ever suggested that the evacuation could have been avoided and asked if anybody had views on my suggestion.

    However, nobody commented other than several comments regarding the disgraceful sacrifice of The 51st. Highland Division at St. Valery.

    I would like to know if anybody shares my thoughts re examining the possible avoidance of the ‘triumphant’ evacuation.

    As the abandonment of Churchill’s disastrous Norway campaign coincided with the start of the German offensive on May 10th where were the forces evacuated from Norway at the time of Dunkirk? – were they still in The UK or had they been rushed to Belgium/France.

  32. Clootie

    …the problem is the failure by all sides to see that this behaviour is wrong. Why is it always the other side and not us. Why do people think that a criminal act should not be given to “them”.
    It reminds me of all those good humoured jokes against woman and ethnic groups in the 70s…what harm did that cause??

  33. Al Dossary


    Completely agree with the sentiment. The OBAF whilst not perfect, is better than what existed previously. Agree to amend it with the numbskulls propsing changes. The problem is that these neanderthals will vote on party lines, as always just to defeat the SNP.

    Kelly is just playing to his audience. Ruthie baby will be forced to do the same now that she has the support of the LOL. Ruthie now has to keep happy her combination of supporters – the small “c” elderly voters, the traditional “I’m all right” jacks with the big “C” and now the LOL’ers with the “Union at all costs” mantra.

    The act has majority support amongst the OF supporters, and overwhelming support amongst supporters of every other club in the country. Ironically, it is these “other” supporters who suffer disproportionately at the hands of the police.

    The police historically think nothing of wading into a small crowd of one of the provincial clubs away from home yet are reluctant to do it to either of the big 2.

    Ibrox / Parkhead are the only 2 grounds in the Scottish League which I refuse point blank to visit – Solely down to the way that visiting fans are treated and the attitude of some of their supporters towards us. It has been that way since the Fergus McCann years and will be for the foreseeable future.

  34. Robert Peffers

    @Liz g says: 16 July, 2017 at 12:47 pm:

    ” … I would actually personally like to see the law in Scotland go much farther.”

    Aye! Liz g, me too. I used to enjoy a football match. I have a suggestion to make :-

    If, instead of banning the offenders from attending matches the courts forced them, at the offenders expense obviously, to attend the opposing teams games for the same period of time they would have been banned from watching their favoured team. Of course excepting the games involving their favoured team.

    I believe that would be more effective as getting banned from watching their favourites makes them martyrs in the eyes of their fellow supporters.

    Mind you it could be worse if the courts forced them to wear their favoured teams colours at those matches. It sure as hell would impress upon them the effects of sectarianism on their opposite numbers.

  35. colin alexander

    @Peter. Edinburgh

    I accept it seems to refer to the IRA of the Easter uprising in 1916, not the Provisional IRA of the modern era.

    However, I see no place for songs about taking up “rifle and grenade” at a football match.

    I’ve no comment to make on who HM Queen chooses to honour, as I never voted her head of state. Nor did I agree with the Scot Govt presumption that Scotland would have her as head of state if Scotland had voted YES in 2014.

    Where and when it’s sung matters too. Fitba should be for fitba songs:

    eg “it’s a grand auld team to play for..”


    “He says to me: are you going to see the famous Glasow Rangers”.

  36. Dr Jim

    If you stood outside your neighbours house and sung about wanting him dead and bathed in his own blood whilst chanting about how his particular version of his religion offended you the cops would be along in jig time to carry you away on breach of the peace and basic nut job charges
    Of course if he happened to be a Muslim, racist offences too

    Yet if you do it in an organised fashion and rules based gang wearing the correct attire it’s perfectly OK

    Is that what they mean when they say blind justice, or do they actually mean blind to justice

    We pay the BBC to allow James Kelly to verbally assault us and mentally assault us and then stand up in my parliament and do it all over again,,,, but if I stood outside his house….Ye see?


  37. Robert Peffers

    @Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 1:09 pm:

    ” … And whilst the SNP government continue to allow Orange marches, then any suggestion that they wish to tackle sectarianism in this country, is taken with a huge pinch of salt.”

    Utter anti-SNP/Scottish/Independence pish!

  38. Dan Huil

    Britnats are desperate to encourage sectarianism in Scotland. Anything that harms Scotland is encouraged by britnats.

  39. Highland Wifie

    Replace singing offensive song at football match for using a mobile phone whilst driving in the following:-
    “The police film fans with handheld cameras all the time but to pick me and a couple of others out of a crowd of thousands doing the same thing didn’t feel like justice to me. It felt random like bad luck.”
    It’s called the criminal justice system and it exists partly in order to try to change negative behaviour that impacts on the lives of others.

  40. Glamaig

    dont know but 1. they were defeated and demoralised, Ive read a good account by soldiers on the ground but cant find it now 2. German air superiority might have been a factor – the RAF didnt have enough range to give consistent air cover and they were worried about having enough planes to defend the UK.

  41. george wood

    heedtracker says:
    16 July, 2017 at 1:36 pm

    “I don’t get how he was police ID’d out of a crowd of 4000, he says. If the Mail creeps have left out how this one man was known to the police like this, or at least someone next to or nearby him in the crowd, there’s something very not right about this.

    But it is the Mail reprobates so who knows.”

    He says he was sitting beside the “Green Brigade”, who, as I understand it, start off a lot of the singing. They want to link supporting Celtic with Ireland’s Independence and the troubles.
    I suspect, he got filmed starting off some of the chants and that’s why he was singled out.

  42. Vronsky

    I can’t find any fault in ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ that I couldn’t find in any Scottish Jacobite song. I’m also uneasy about the criminalisation of offensive behaviour. There are very serious issues of freedom of speech here, as we are all offensive from time to time. But in whose opinion are we offensive? Should we take #scotref off the table because it offends so many people?

    I fully understand that the lobbying against the OBFM is nothing more than another hopeful attempt by the British state to damage the SNP and the independence movement, similar to the concerted attack on Named Person legislation. I know that Unionists don’t give a fuck about freedom of speech or the protection of children, they are just usefully emotive attack lines.

    But however cognisant of that we might be, it doesn’t mean that we should mindlessly defend poorly framed or (in the case of OBFM) redundant legislation. It is possible to appreciate the decency of intention but still criticise the implementation.

    I was a bit disturbed by the story that the singer repented after therapy, and will never again sing ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’. It reminded me too much of Clockwork Orange.

  43. Peter. Edinburgh

    Colin Alexander. I take your point about that particular song being sung at a football game in Scotland. I don’t sing it at a football game, although I know it. But it shouldn’t be illegal to sing it as it is neither offensive nor sectarian.

    Robert Peffers. Aye, very good.

  44. meg merrilees

    To me, the absolutely most shocking aspect of this man’s tale is the fact that he was in the final year of a Law degree and HE can’t understand that he has done anything wrong!!!!!
    it took an anti-sectarian workshop to make him see the error of his ways.
    Maybe he deserved that conviction!

    So in his final exam, if there was a theoretical question describing the situation he found himself in, he would have declared the suspect completely innocent.
    Some lawyer!

    Would that have been marked as a pass or a fail?

    Is it that perhaps sectarianism isn’t being debated in the syllabus for a Scots law degree?

    We understand and reject racism, sexism and homophobic stances but why did he not know in advance that he was spreading this cancerous sectarianism???

    It’s all part of spreading hatred and intolerance and there is no place for any of that in modern Scotland, the country I want to live in.

  45. Macart

    The meeja and their bestest buds. Never let ethics or public safety get in the way of the next assault on the SNP.

    Wonder if they’re aware in any way that these actions are precisely why they unfit for purpose?

  46. Highland Wifie

    Vronsky says
    “I can’t find any fault in ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ that I couldn’t find in any Scottish Jacobite song’

    Any class teacher will tell you that context is everything when judging the behaviour of others.
    If it is done to inflame hatred or to provoke violence then it is wrong pure and simple.

    People who shout about freedom of speech sometimes forget that it comes with responsibilities.

  47. Juan P

    The proposed repeal of this legislation is naked political opportunism.

    No British nationalist politician, as far as I’m aware, has called on the UK government to repeal equivalent legislation created by Westminster which criminalises the glorification of terrorist organisations and which has been in existence for significantly longer than the OBAF.

    The fact that the Act creates a statutory offence in relation to behaviour which may be captured by existing common law offences is hardly an argument for repeal. There are countless statutory offences which replicate, in part or in whole, existing common law offences and legislated for by both UK and Scottish Governments.

    When push comes to shove there is no obvious and justifiable reason why the legislation requires to be repealed.

  48. yesindyref2

    @G. Campbell
    Yes, Cat Boyd had an article in the National 2 or 3 weeks back, and it was quite clear from that she probably voted Labour. There will have been a lot of others.

    I can’t “blame” them, as he is a ray of hope to those on the left and I’d have greatly preferred him as PM, even if it slowed down Indy a bit. But it was clear that most constituencies a vote for Labour was wasted.

    Personally I thought the SNP and Labour should have done a bit of cross-tactical voting, to keep out the autocratic Tories, instead of slagging each other off. There could esaily have been 7 less Tories, and away goes the majority.

  49. Liz g

    Robert Peffers @ 1.52
    An interesting proposition Robert..

    Also….How about getting Glasgow City Council to remove the right of both these club’s to be called GLASGOW anything?

    They both fly the flags and chant the politics and folklore of other countries!

    And before anyone says anything, the Union flag is not a Scottish flag.
    There’s even a song about that too….

    {There always be an England… apparently this is what the red white and BLUE should mean to you!}

    But seriously the Union flag is exactly that the flag of the Scotland,and football teams don’t play as a Union.
    So what is that flag doing there?

    Don’t get me started on the other one….we are no even on the same island….and the Union we are in with the Irish is the EU….so while the colour is a bit closer, even that flag’s no Scottish.
    Patient the name Glasgow and keep it from both those embarrassments of a sports club!

    Time better spent at the moment than banning Kultural marches, because that’s a thread that doesn’t need pulled.
    Unless ye wouldn’t mind a bit of bother.
    Jist mind that after a yes vote there is NAE Union.
    They hiv nae Church in Scotland that will claim them (as far as I know).
    The battle’s no a Scottish wan.
    In short nothing but “because we have always done it” to actually march for.
    After a few years they marches will become as much a part of Scotland as Morris Dancing is in England.
    Our own culture and commemorations will be front and center of what fills our streets
    Not whatever the hell played out between England and Ireland 4 bloody centuries ago.

  50. Walking on Sunshine

    According to Wikipedia the song is about the Irish fighting the British in their quest for independence.

    According to Wikipedia ‘The Boys of the Old Brigade’ is an Irish republican folk song written by Paddy McGuigan about the Irish Republican Army and the Irish War of Independence, (1919-1921), and the anniversary of the 1916 Easter Rising.

    In 2008, UEFA abandoned an investigation into Celtic supporters singing the ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ due to lack of evidence.

    I accept that singing songs about Irish independence (or any country’s independence) at a Friday night football match in Kilmarnock is inappropriate, but a breach of the peace charge would be sufficient in this case.

  51. yesindyref2

    I’ve never had a view on the OFBA, but as for the song about the Easter rising, here’s two verses sung at football / rugby matches:

    “O flower of Scotland
    When will we see your like again
    That fought and died for
    Your wee bit hill and glen
    And stood against him
    Proud Edward’s army
    And sent him homeward
    Tae think again”


    “O Lord, our God, arise,
    Scatter her enemies,
    And make them fall.
    Confound their politics,
    Frustrate their knavish tricks,
    On thee our hopes we fix:
    God save the Queen. “

  52. Highland Wifie


    So let’s find something better!
    First job after independence?

  53. Jack Collatin

    The solution is simple. When these knuckle draggers start singing their songs of hate, the broadcaster should stop broadcasting the match, and a simple message appear on the screen explaining why the transmission has been interrupted, and that they would resume the programme when the evil chanting abated.
    This fictitious ‘case study’ of Paul the Proddy University educated future lawyer who supports the Sellick and got caught up innocently in a crowd of drunken bums at an away match at Kilmarnock was written by Kelly or some zealous lackey back at Project SNP BAD HQ.
    It has the fingerprints of Roden of the Mail all over it.
    The Sunday Mail is a rag of the first order now.
    How many times will they publish photies of Griffiths advertising Buckfast the bevvy of choice of the thug, hooligan and all round fascist bigot?
    The Dead Tree Scrolls in Scotland now sell tomorrow’s toilet paper. They have trawled the sewers of Scotland and glorify gangsters, murderers, fascists, and evil bigots, and take every opportunity to plant photies of political failures, and all round Gravy Train trash like James Kelly at every opportunity.
    Kelly and the rest of the Unionist rag bag are out to destabilise parliamentary business in Scotland. Nobody gives a fuck what Kelly, WATP Tomkins, and Murdo The Queen’s Eleven Fraser, three unelected Hangers On, think, except the Dead Tree Scrolls and the scribe whores who churn out this garbage.
    Nicola Sturgeon was in Europe this week doing the ‘day job’, protecting Scottish citizens rights, and making sure our voice is being heard despite Dugdale Rennie and Davidson ignoring the political will of the people, and selling us out to England and the London Establishment.
    This snivelling little wimp is a despicable wee toerag, darling of the Gutter Blahs and BBC.
    The OBF law is a good law if it only gets on Kelly’s tits, if you ask me.

  54. Vronsky

    “So let’s find something better! First job after independence?”

    Very much with you on that. My suggestion is always ‘A man’s a man’. The (late) poet Tom Buchan advocated it because it was ‘national, but also international’.

  55. Peter. Edinburgh

    Liz g. Celtic do not have Glasgow in their name! Again, the ignorance of people making comments on this issue.

  56. Peter. Edinburgh

    Remember, the OBFA is not about sectarianism. It isn’t about Celtic. It isn’t about Rangers. The OBFA has seen young Hamilton fans arrested and charged for singing a song about Motherwell. Fans from a number of different clubs have been arrested and charged under this Act. I have seen protests from fans from Hibs and Dundee.

  57. crazycat

    @ Jack Collatin

    When Meg merrilees commented that it was disturbing that a final year law student had to go on a course to find out tht he had been doing something illegal, my first thought was that we had no evidence this person actually existed – his identity was being “protected” by calling him only Paul.

  58. Liz g

    Yesindyref2 @ 3.00
    You are correct….both those tuneless wonder’s could at certain football games be considered antagonist to the point of causing offence.
    But we both know that is no what the act was designed to address
    It is at the very heart of the concept freedom of speech, I would have said.
    IE…. Freedom of speech doesn’t include the right to shout fire in an empty room…
    In other words it’s a judgement call about there being a time and a place to express your self.
    The act specifically says AT football and that’s what makes all the difference.
    Firstly because that’s where this problem manifests itself, to the point that the government needed to act!
    And Secondly outside of the footballing environment all rights and freedoms have not been affected at all,they are the same as they ever were.

    I would also point out that the two songs that you gave as an example….. do have a bit to with Scotland…..
    We are talking here of songs that originated from the English and the Irish having a stooshie a fair few year’s before we were in a TREATY agreement with England…. so therefore has very little to do with us.
    Unless you buy the establishment line that Scots should fight each other over it.
    It was the English Crown that two Prince’s were actually fighting over no?

  59. Proud Cybernat

    @ JLT 1:34pm

    Absolute belter of a post. And so bang on the money. Well said and good for you in challenging your sectarian pal with those soul searching questions.

  60. colin alexander

    Did the anonymous “Paul” sing again when in the Polis station:

    Let us sing a prisoners anthem. Let it echo through the cells. Along the halls and the landing. Let our hearts and voices swell?

  61. yesindyref2

    @Liz g

    Yes, if BPC had stopped at the border things might be very different!

  62. Effijy

    Why is there any debate on here about Sectarian singing?

    Yes the Protestants did well in holding out against the Catholics over 300 years ago, and yes the Republican’s own army did incredibly well to defeat the Protestant Westminster invaders some 100 years ago.

    Surely we are all happy to see these event confined to the history books and we all want to work together to build a fair and just society for future generations.

    If you want sign at football matches or in Pubs, sings songs about your team, not wars, hate and killing.

    Pick something from Abba or Elvis and cheer yourselves up.

  63. Peter. Edinburgh

    Liz g. Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of this issue. The Act is not about being AT football. It does not restrict itself to an incident AT football.

  64. Alwyn ap Huw

    It would be interesting to know what percentage of those who are so passionately sectarian in a Saturday afternoon football match support their sects where it counts, in church on a Sunday morning.

  65. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Divide and Conquer is the way the British Establishment work to maintain their grip on power and wealth.

    Sectarianism is a Divide and Conquer tool of the British Establishment.

    This is why they want the repeal of the OBFA.

    This is the reason ‘Rangers’ couldn’t be allowed to fail (how can you foster division if there is only one side?)

    If you make Sectarianism as socially unacceptable as racism or domestic violence you remove a tool from the British Establishments ‘box of tricks’

    Another day of SNP BAD, in the same vein as the Named Person ‘outrage’ from Right Wing, flat earth home schoolers so joyously pushed by Liz Smith and the MSM/BBC.

    Those who would vote for repealing the OBFA rather than amending it give one message and one message alone.

    I, “Insert Name”, Member of the “Insert Name of Political Party” and Member of the Scottish Parliament, support Offensive Behaviour at Football including the singing of songs glorifying murder due to different religious beliefs and any Violence caused as a result of this behaviour at or following these football matches.

  66. Peter. Edinburgh

    Effijy. Is there any debate about sectarian songs? Is anyone defending sectarian songs? I am certainly not.

  67. Peter. Edinburgh

    Alwyn ap Huw. Once again, this Act is not about sectarianism.

  68. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Remember “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.”

    Audre Lorde 1934-1992

    Unionist Politicians in Scotland will never bring about any genuine change.

    Because the British Establishment does not want any.

  69. Liz g

    Peter Edinburgh @ 3.33
    Again your arrogance that only those with some sort of detailed knowledge of these two clubs and their issues,that meet your imaginary standards can comment with any creditability is breathtaking sir!
    They are referenced as Glasgow team’s are they no?
    If that’s no self referencing by the club themselves doesn’t really matter for the purpose of Glasgow disowning both of them now does it.
    Nobody surely, has to find these two clubs and their “issues” with what they are as part of the entertainment industry actually for,remotely interesting.
    To comment on how they impact society,as I am sure you can agree.
    I have previously indicated on other threads that I know absolutely nothing about football it’s self.
    And I am unlikely to change that while there is still wet paint in the world.
    My comments are based on being a grown up, discussing a”Game”,a game that to be perfectly honest,if I was helping to fund the violence and everything else that the fan’s help to pay for,I would find another Game.

  70. joannie

    @Rev Stu, Colin Alexander and Robert Pfeffers – I’m sorry I still don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Its a song about the old IRA who fought for Irish independence and were no more terrorists than George Washington’s men. There is nothing sectarian or hateful about the lyrics and while it may not be an appropriate song for a football match, that shouldn’t be a police matter.

    As far as the bigger picture is concerned, I agree with keeping the OBFA and suspect those pushing to repeal it of having sinister motives. I just don’t think that particular song should be covered by it.

  71. colin alexander

    I think it would be helpful to set the OBFA in a context:

    It has been designed to try and tackle sectarianism, bigotry, whatever you want to call it.

    There was pressure to be seen to be doing something about this cancer in Scottish society.

    Nil By Mouth (referred to in the article) was set up to educate people to try and reduce sectarianism and bigotry following the brutal and unprovoked murder of a young innocent Celtic supporter called Mark Scott in Brigton, Glasgow in 1995. All he was doing was walking home from a Celtic game.

  72. yesindyref2

    I was really into folk music years ago, both modern and trad, it’s both history and future, a force for change at times, and have an album of the Dubliners for instance, with this one a favourite “Four Green Fields”. The question is – should this one be banned as well?

    There’s a lot of purely judgement calls involved in this, and that’s a problem.

  73. Liz g

    Peter Edinburgh @ 4.04
    It’s no the offending Behaviour at the dug show Peter noo is it ?

  74. Peter. Edinburgh

    Liz g. It isn’t arrogance to hope someone has some knowledge of the issue they are discussing.

    And yes, if you are on your way to a football match, then there may be an issue at the dug show.

  75. colin alexander

    @ Peter. Edinburgh

    ACT 2012
    The objective of the offences provided for in this Act is to tackle sectarian hatred and other offensive and threatening behaviour related to football matches and to prevent the communication of threatening material,
    particularly where it incites religious hatred. The primary but not sole
    motivation for the offences concerns football. “

  76. Peter. Edinburgh

    Colin Alexander. There was legislation that could deal with sectarianism or bigotry. This Act wasn’t required. And, as I have pointed out before, the words sectarian and sectarianism do not appear in the Act.

    Nil By Mouth was set up with the best intentions. Unfortunately Nil By Mouth have created more problems. Nil By Mouth consider the words ‘hun’ and ‘tim’ to be sectarian references.

  77. Liz g

    Yesindyref2 @ 4.26
    No song’s should be banned.
    And I don’t think that any are, it’s the time and a place thing….
    And the what’s appropriate at a certain point in history,we (Scotland) seem to not to want to tolerate the sectarianism that this act “”isn’t””about any way …any more,and support our government in the steps they have taken so far.
    As is our right.
    Many things are unacceptable now that used to be fine not that long ago.
    But as Jockanesewindtalker farther up said this is one of the master’s tools,so there will be push back.
    As for our rights well em..
    Bringing your Government within slapping distance…is it no obvious?

  78. colin alexander


    Aye, it should be banned – for being a depressing dirge.

    At least “The Merry Ploughboy” is more upbeat if listening to “Rebel” songs is your thing.

  79. Peter. Edinburgh

    Colin Alexander. This was trotted out the last time this issue was discussed here. That is not the Act. The Act does not include the words sectarian and sectarianism.

  80. colin alexander

    @Peter. Edinburgh

    Well, so far on this site, among my pro-independence peers, in a few days I’ve been called: fud, tit, Yoon, troll, Orange Order appeaser, it, 77th Brigade and GCHQ agent and worst of all compared to Kezia Dugdale.

    By Unionists, I’ve been called Jihadist, moron, fool, blue painted face fantasist, terrorist etc etc for saying I believe Scotland would be better off not being ruled from Westminster.

    Again context, I guess. Intent to hurt or cause offence plays a part as well as the words used.

  81. Liz g

    Peter Edinburgh @ 4.39
    Well then Peter you do not hope in vain..
    Rest assured that I have all the knowledge that I need to discuss the impact on society of a Game.
    I can easily weight up the cost to the tax payers, Scotland’s reputation,woman and children and the dugs in the street,of doing nothing.

    But why……on my way to a football match (assuming that I have witnessed the much more interesting sight of all the paint in the world being dry) would I also go to a dug show?

    It’s it at all possible Peter, that you are attempting to discuss a dug show and you don’t know anything at all about them?
    As in is no something ye do on the way tae the game!!!

    Ach,well don’t worry about it…me either!

  82. colin alexander


    Okay, I’ll take your word for it.

    That’s the Act:

    Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012

    Not got time to read it yet.

  83. Bzzzz

    Jim Kelly is an idiot. Blinded by his jealous hatred of the SNP he thinks that scrapping the act & doing nothing is the way to address sectarianism. Idiots like him we do not need anywhere near any kind of decision making, I wouldn’t trust him to put his own shoes on nevermind have any say on law making and social attutides.

  84. Lochside

    The singing of Irish Republican songs from the Irish struggles up to and including the establishment of the Free State are legitimate… long as they are sung somewhere appropriate….but a football match is not one of them.

    The problem with Irish (Ulster) loyalist songs is that they are inevitably sectarian and anti-Catholic and are not suitable or appropriate anywhere.

    The fact is that both clubs should have instructed their support to bin all these tunes years ago, because at the end of the day they both are Scottish based and play only in the Scottish league. So there has never been any justification for them. The evidence shows that Rangers’ support only became virulently anti Catholic circa 1912 coinciding with Harland and Wolfe importing hundreds of Ulster protestant workers to their new Glasgow yard precisely the year that the ‘loyal’ Ulster Volunteer Force was being armed with German guns in preparation to fight the British Crown in order to usurp the democratic vote for Home Rule throughout Ireland.

    These bigots adopted Rangers and the Celtic support’s traditional Irish airs took on a political colour in response to the newly arrived Ulstermen. Ranger’s biggest rivals at the time were Clyde, the ‘bully wee’. The oft quoted Cup Final riot of 1909 was not between the Old Firm fans but a united punch up with the police and firemen because of their perception of another replay and inflated prices being a ‘rip off’. An din those days they took umbrage by setting fire to Hampden and fighting the law..not each other.

    All very weel…but we’ve been stuck with these bawling and violent brain washed fools for the past century. Bellowing and pissing and causing mayhem. Fergus McCann did try to persuade Celtic fans to become more Scottish and at the time was reviled. But….times have changed and we know now that most catholics in Scotland are pro Scottish Independence…unfortunately …we also know amongst those identifying as C of S there is still a minority.

    The Brits know this…and are bigging up that division. Kelly and Catholic UK loyalists are behind the Green Brigade manipulating the young team into the old songs and attitudes. Meanwhile at Ibroke, there has been an institutional corrupt BRITNAT/Orange fusion being fabricated since Murray’s rule: Military parades, Union tricentennial celebrations etc. I attended one game during the REF where the Broomloan End had all ‘NO’ placards and where I was sitting I was roundly abused as a ‘fenian bastard’…I’m neither…

    Our children must be protected from this insidious and deliberate poison being disseminated cynically by agents of division who represent an ‘Old Firm’ of BRITNATS. I would like to see stronger prosecution of this law to include the recent disgraceful performances of the OO throughout the West of Scotland…after all if they played these tunes at a football match they would standing in a dock like the fabled ‘Paul’ should have been.

  85. Peter. Edinburgh

    Liz g. I assume football fans go to dug shows. If one, on the way to a football match, popped into the local dug show and sang, for whatever reason, Boys of the Old Brigade, they can be arrested and charged under this Act.

    Funnily enough, should they pop into the dug show and sing this very same song, in front of the very same people, and dugs, when there is no football on, they will not be arrested and charged under this Act.

  86. Robert Louis

    Anybody know why the green party are supporting this rubbish from the Labour village idiot, who wants to repeal the OBFA?

    Serious question.

  87. Robert Peffers

    @Vronsky says: 16 July, 2017 at 2:29 pm

    “I can’t find any fault in ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ that I couldn’t find in any Scottish Jacobite song. I’m also uneasy about the criminalisation of offensive behaviour.”

    Then you do not know your history, Vronsky, and you have no idea of what constitutes offensive behaviour.

    In 1688 the Parliamentarians of the Kingdom of England. (That is the country of England, the English Kingdom’s Principality of Wales, (1284) and the English Kingdom’s province of Ireland, (1542), rebelled against their rightful monarch.

    That Scottish monarch had also worn the independent crown of the Kingdom of Scotland since 1603 but that Scottish Kingdom had remained independent with its own independent parliament since 1603. The Kingdom of England falsely still claims as, “The Union of the Crowns” but you cannot have a Union of the Crowns when the two Kingdoms remained independent until the Treaty of Union of 1606/7.

    The English call this rebellion of their Parliament of England, “The Glorious Revolution”, but it was indeed a real rebellion by the Parliament and a revolution against the monarch of England but the Kingdom of Scotland was still independent until the forced Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

    Thus the Jacobites could not be rebels as they could not rebel against a monarch not their own.

    Simply put – as the two kingdoms were still fully independent but just happened to have their individual independent crowns sat upon the same person’s head, (due to a centuries old Marriage of Convenience of two children). Thus when England took the crown from that monarch’s head they had not the sovereignty to also take away the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

    The people of Scotland had gained that legal sovereignty in 1320 by the Holy Roman Se, (The then accepted international authority of the European Christendom).

    This legal acceptance of Scotland’s independence included the acceptance that the Scottish monarch’s role was as the Protector of the People’s Sovereignty. Thus the Scottish Monarch could not give to the Kingdom of England a Scottish sovereignty the monarch, to this day, does not legally have.

    So these are the real facts. The so called Jacobite Rebellion was impossible to be a rebellion as the parliament of Scotland had not deposed their monarch and the, “Glorious Revolution”, of England was obviously a real rebellion as they not only deposed their monarch but installed the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange as the monarchs of the Kingdom of England while Scotland was still independent.

    So now you can see that the so called Jacobite Rebellion was actually a war between two independent Kingdoms and the proof of that is The Treaty of Union of 1707. Why would they need a Treaty of Union if there was a Union of the Crowns in 1603?

    Now as to the Irish case. The Holy Roman Se appointed the King of England as, “Lord of Ireland”, and in 1542 the King of England made the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, making the English Monarch the King of Ireland. That made all Ireland an English Province.

    So the Irish situation was that the South of Ireland rebelled against their monarch and the original fighting was a civil war because both sides in the conflict were still parts of the United Kingdom.

    Then the Westminster Parliament instigated, “The Irish Free State”, that state was a United Kingdom Dominion so both sides were still from the United Kingdom and that was still civil war.

    The Irish Free State, (in Irish: Hailstát Éireann), ran as a UK Dominion from 1922 until 1937. So still both sides killing each other were parts of the UK – so still a Civil War.

    In 1937 the Irish Free State declared, unilaterally, that it was no longer a UK Dominion and became, “The Republic of Ireland”, at which point the IRA, in Northern Ireland, became terrorists fighting for a foreign country.

    There is absolutely no comparison between the IRA and the Jacobites who were truthfully fighting for their own monarchy in, and for, their own independent Kingdom.

    Care to prove me wrong, Vronsky? You quite obviously believe the Westminster Establishment’s false history and their centuries of obvious lies.

    So can you dispute any of the facts I stated or not?

  88. Gary45%

    Type in “Taiwanese motorcycle advert” into youtube, its for TC bank, this will fill you with joy on yet another day of abject misery and bigoted, inbred shite from the worst media anywhere on planet earth.

  89. Liz g

    Peter Edinburgh @ 5.14
    That’s kinda what I’ve been saying Peter.
    This is a time and a place and in context thing.
    It’s an issue specific to football and so is only linked to attending football.
    I would say that this is correct and I don’t need to know a thing about football to hold that position.
    I only need to be convinced that there is in fact an issue that requires legislation and that the legislation is not to wide reaching,as in including the dug show’s.
    You surely can’t say nothing needed done?
    And also that Scotland should now send the message that it’s now ok to behave like this,that it was a mistake, it’s all perfectly legal now?
    Please note that I am not ever against improving the legislation,but to repeal it no.
    Any protection of my freedom of speech should I think come from as I have said keeping the government answerable to the people.

  90. Vronsky

    “Then you do not know your history, Vronsky, and you have no idea of what constitutes offensive behaviour.”

    Cut to the chase. Why should offensive behaviour be illegal? Think before you answer.

  91. Robert Peffers

    @Walking on Sunshine says: 16 July, 2017 at 2:58 pm:

    ” … ‘The Boys of the Old Brigade’ is an Irish republican folk song written by Paddy McGuigan about the Irish Republican Army and the Irish War of Independence, (1919-1921), and the anniversary of the 1916 Easter Rising.”

    You do know, or do you? That between 1919 and 1921 both sides fighting each other were United Kingdom citizens?

    The Republic of Ireland was only a result of Unilateral Declaration of Southern Irish Republicanism in 1937.

    The so called, (by Westminster), Anglo-Irish Treaty could not be an Anglo-Irish anything because both signatories were parts of the United Kingdom and you cannot sign a treaty with yourself.

    It was an agreement by Westminster to accept that Southern Ireland was a Republic but it sure as hell was not a treaty of union between two different countries or kingdoms because the whole of Ireland became a part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland act. There was thus no Kingdom of Ireland in 1937 to become part of the United Kingdom because it was already made part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 and thus became part of the United Kingdom in 1707.

  92. joannie

    Robert Pfeffers, what point are you trying to make exactly? Your characterisation of the Irish War of Independence as a civil war because we were part of the UK is the kind of logic that could be used to describe any ex-colony’s fight for independence as a civil war. If you choose to view things that way, that’s up to you, but I don’t see what it has to do with the OBFA and the issue of whether The Boys of the Old Brigade should be covered by it.

  93. colin Alexander


    The Act refers to ethnic or national origins, religion or social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation etc

    I think that’s how sectarian is defined. Though it covers more than sectarianism ( I think in Scotland it’s usually is regarded as Catholic/Protestant , Republican / Loyalist sympathies.)

  94. Meg merrilees

    Big cheer for Jamie Murray and Martina Hengis – just won the mixed doubles at Wimbledon.

    Well done the boy from Dunblane and his colleague.

  95. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    I’m very rapidly losing patience with some of the hackneyed old bollocks people are trotting out about the OBFA here. Jacobites? Get to fuck.

  96. Peter. Edinburgh

    Colin Alexander. So we agree that the words sectarian and sectarianism do not appear in the Act?

  97. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Why should offensive behaviour be illegal?”

    Why should shouting “FIRE!” In a crowded theatre be illegal? Grow up.

  98. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “So we agree that the words sectarian and sectarianism do not appear in the Act?”

    Fair warning: try that fucking idiot line again and get banned. Same goes for anyone mentioning Flower Of Scotland. We have standards here.

  99. colin alexander


    I was just joking about the song being banned. Everybody has different tastes in music.

    If you like it, then enjoy yersel.

    Personally, Seven Drunken Nights is my favourite Dubliners song.

    @ people in general

    What songs we enjoy in private is our own business, but common sense tells us it’s just asking for trouble to sing in public about the IRA, PIRA, UDA, UVF, The Troubles etc.

  100. mike cassidy

    Robert Louis 5.23

    Here’s why the Green Party oppose the OBF act.

    They think that legislation designed to discourage discrimination should not be targeted at one particular group of discriminators in society – ie football fans.

    Read and weep.

  101. Glamaig

    I agree with you there I think calling the war of independence a civil war in the UK is very wide of the mark, in fact verging on insulting, and the IRA in that song obviously refers to the old IRA and 1919-22. (Obviously a civil war within Ireland followed the war of independence but was that not between factions of the IRA?) In just about any country that has won its independence there are similar songs e.g FoS.

    However the context of football is different and at that point I bow out because I know nothing about football, happy to be a Piscy and not give a toss about sectarianism. Even having these discussions on WoS stirs it up and that is exactly what the like of Davidson, Murphy and Kelly want to do, encourage sectarianism and division, because they think the more divisions there are in Scotland the better for their purposes which is to prevent independence at literally any cost.

  102. colin Alexander


    As I’ve explained, The Act gives a detailed definition of what we would usually refer to as “sectarianism” so it has no need to use one word to describe that behaviour, as it uses many words to define that behaviour.

  103. Liz g

    Joannie 6.05
    Couldn’t say for certain Joannie,as I don’t know anything about this song other than what has been said about it here today.
    And I,as some will tell you (Peter mibbi) know even less about football.

    But it seems to me that you have one crowd with an allegiance to another Country, standing in front of another crowd who think they are in their own country and need to support their army, saying that we’re remembering the heroes of our army that died when they gubbed your army,and flung your army out.
    Kinda crazy….. I know…(try sectarian-splannin to a foreigner)!
    But it’s the pointing out our army won in the country of the loosing army,to people who support said army,that I can see is offensive.
    Even more so because the people doing it live under the protection of the army they are gloating over.
    Hope that helps…. it’s how I make sense of it anyway.

  104. Peter. Edinburgh

    Colin Alexander. Why should anyone be asking for trouble singing The Boys of the Old Brigade? Or The Sash for that matter? As I said, I wouldn’t sing these songs, but then I wouldn’t sing any song in public. One of the issues with this Act is that it doesn’t define what songs are offensive. Whilst I might not find The Sash offensive, the Act allows for some reasonable person, somewhere, to be offended, and therefore you may be arrested and charged under this Act.

    So, you might find it commonsense, I might define commonsense differently. Someone might define it differently again.

  105. Peter. Edinburgh

    Liz g. Allegiance to another country! Seriously?

  106. joannie

    @Glamaig – yes the Irish Civil War was between two factions of the IRA who split over the issue of the Treaty. And you’re correct that pretty much any country that won their independence from another country has rebel songs as part of their culture. In their proper context such songs are not sectarian or bigoted in any way, but maybe a Scottish football match is not the proper context for celebrating Ireland’s struggle for freedom!

    I’m well acquainted with the Imperial tactic of divide and conquer through sectarianism, its a standard tactic of any Empire and it always causes bloodshed, frequently long after the Empire who created it has left – eg, the Rwandan genocide which has its roots in Belgian colonialism. To the extent that people are trying to stir up sectarianism in Scotland purely to undermine independence, I find that very sinister indeed.

  107. Robert Graham

    Another day ,another whack at the SNP , the democratically elected government of scotland yet again is the target , when nothing else is going on drag the barrel for some more rubbish works every time for Unionists , they are easily pleased .
    This wee spot in the limelight for Mr Kelly is the best he can do , he has managed to get enough unionists to support his dig at the SNP , not to improve the bill ,just to harm the government .
    Well done him eh , a small minded labour placement who probably hasn’t had an original thought in his life , gee wizz what a bloody treasure we have uncovered here, we should be grateful, A beacon and a shining light, a true statesman in the Scottish Parliament .No Laughing at the back now , is this the best Labour can offer ?, god help us all . And we pay for this .

  108. Peter. Edinburgh

    Colin Alexander. So, again, we agree that the Act does not contain the words sectarian and sectarianism?

  109. colin Alexander


    I spoke of common sense, but the reality is that in Scotland, there’s lots of bampots and usually they are out to cause trouble.

    Lots of bampots are also football fans. These bampots tend to sing certain types of songs, not as a celebration of heritage or history but to wind up others and cause trouble.

    Unfair, on decent football fans, but cos of the troublemakers everyone else is affected.

    Maybe they could be addressed using other legislation, but as I’ve said, even innocent words can be used for offensive, hurtful intentions.

  110. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “So, again, we agree that the Act does not contain the words sectarian and sectarianism”

    You were warned. I couldn’t have been any clearer.

  111. yesindyref2

    I did try starting to sing the words of Despacito to a small public the other day. Definitely offensive!

    Yes, I agree basically, songs can be offensive in context, specially if accompanied by pointing, gesticulating and sneering or laughing. So by that token, though some songs are definitely offensive in themselves, others can be at the likes of football matches.

  112. Socrates MacSporran

    I have long held, OBFA is bad law, hurriedly introduced and barely thought-through, but, it is better than nothing.

    The football authorities have had plenty of time to sort-out the bad behaviours of the lunatic fringes which follow every club, but, they refuse to do the sensible thing and introduce legislation within the game, whereby clubs are held responsible for the bad behaviour of their fans.

    This liability exists in European games, but not in domestic matches and, if the Hampden blazers will not act – the government has to.

    I have yet to see suggestions brought forward by the opposition parties as to how they would tackle offensive behaviour at football, and I don’t suppose I ever will.

    I also believe, the opposition from the likes of daftie Kelly in-part stems from his belief – Rangers have all the bad guys and songs, Celtic’s following is pure as the driven snow. Aye right!

    Of course, given that poor wee put-upon Celtic-supporting law student was caught at Rugby Park, as was the half-wit who got caught singing the Famine Song, maybe we should just ban Kilmarnock from top-flight football.

    Although, they did not a bad job of that themselves at Somerset Park on Friday night.

  113. K1

    The ‘guidelines’ of all Acts are precisely what judges refer to when ascertaining the nature of the offence or legislation being utilised to apply to the conduct of those who are charged under that ‘Act’.

    To state that the word ‘sectarian’ is not in the written body of the Act and therefore the conduct of those who are in fact involved in being offensive to those from a different ‘religious’/ ‘race/s’ grouping than theirs, under this Act’s remit is a lie. The words sectarian are in those guidelines to ‘guide’ the judges in ‘ascertaining’ whether the said ‘offence/s’ fall under the remit of the Act itself.

    Therefore sectarian conduct is very well covered by this Act. In fact this Act specifically ‘does’ address ‘sectarian’ behaviour at football matches:


    The objective of the offences provided for in this Act is to tackle sectarian hatred and other offensive and threatening behaviour related to football matches and to prevent the communication of threatening material, particularly where it incites religious hatred. The primary but not sole motivation for the offences concerns football. While the vast majority of supporters attend matches with the sole purpose of enjoying Scotland’s national game, there continues to be a bigoted and undesirable element who continue to sing and chant “sectarian” and other offensive verses. These offences are intended to help make Scotland safer and stronger, and contribute to tackling inequalities in Scottish society.’


    ‘It is intended to address the problem of offensive and threatening conduct, including singing and chanting, and the display of offensive flags and banners (in particular, those of a “sectarian” or racist nature) which are known to incite public disorder associated with football matches.’

    Why would there be guidelines to any Act if not to ‘guide’ those charged with administering the law?

    These guidelines are ‘intrinsic’ to the Act/s themselves.

  114. Liz g

    Peter Edinburgh @ 6.41
    Aye Peter .. seriously
    They are standing in Scotland,watching two Scottish team’s and it’s no Scotland they sing about.
    They fly the flag of another country also.
    How else could you describe it?
    Told ye this sectarian thing is insane.
    Insane and violent….there ought to be a law
    What say you Peter?

  115. Stoker

    Liz g (7:08pm)

    I think the Rev’s punted his erse out of here for not heeding the warnings given out.

  116. Liz g

    Stoker 7.20
    Oops,thanks for that Stoker just seeing it now.

  117. Capella

    Thanks Stu. Those two were ruining the comment threads, if indeed they are not just one person.

  118. Cactus


  119. stu mac

    @Socrates MacSporran says:

    Re your comment re Kilmarnock. We often see the wee clubs punished for things like this. But when a whole stand at Ibrox or Parkhead does it, nothing happens (or at most one or two guys are grabbed and charged). This is why the football authorities do nothing, they know that any actions they took about this would mostly affect the old firm and they are too feart to take them on.

  120. Valerie

    Thank you, Rev! That arsehole deserved hammers. Not only spouting copious shite, deliberately provocative, but he clearly didn’t give a damn for being warned.

    I agree with every word of the Revs analysis of the Mail drivel. This Paul idiot is going to make some crap lawyer, if he exists.

    The telling part is he didn’t think it was offensive. That’s exactly the defence racists use, Vronsky.

    Oh, c’mon I’ve always said ‘pa**’ , says the racist, it’s a term of endearment, we always said that, it’s not meant to be nasty.

    It makes me sick. Of course it needs the law, in the same way racism needs the law.

    These pieces always guarantee that plenty rocks are overturned, and we see the raft of apologists for bigots come running.

  121. Petra

    @ Mike Cassidy at 6:32pm …. “Greens oppose OBF Act.”

    Thanks for the link Mike and I see that Harvie says “The Scottish Greens believe that the Football Act unnecessarily restricts freedom of expression and is not the most effective means of addressing these concerns.”

    Freedom of expression? I wonder if he’d change his tune if football fans took it up their humph to start singing songs about homosexuals / bisexuals?

  122. joannie

    @Liz g – Celtic has Irish roots though and a big following in Ireland itself. Its hardly to be wondered that their fans sing Irish songs and wave Irish flags.

  123. Liz g

    Stu Mac @ 7.50
    That’s what I was getting at earlier,Stu.
    It would be unrealistic to arrest a whole stand full of people.
    But perfectly possible to empower the police to interrupt the game.
    And change the score or declare it void if the nonsense is held back till the end.
    Wouldn’t be much fun to have to buy a ticket two or three times to get a decision about the outcome of a match.

  124. colin alexander

    @Capella, Liz g etc

    “I think the Rev’s punted his erse out of here for not heeding the warnings given out.”

    Before youse all start celebrating:

    Colin Alexander is still around ;-).

    BUT, to cheer youse up, I’m finished posting today.


  125. K1

    Aye Valerie, he was at least ‘obvious’…his axe wis pre grinded from the last time he appeared, with the exact same rehearsed statements and assertions.

  126. K1

    Oh his shift has ended, quite blatant really int he.

  127. Robert Peffers

    @Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 3:30 pm:

    ” … Celtic do not have Glasgow in their name! Again, the ignorance of people making comments on this issue.”

    That’s because they are not a Scottish club and they fly the Irish Tricolour to prove it. You want their history, Peter?

    I’ll tell you anyway. The Celtic Football Club was started up by
    Andrew Kerins, better known by his religious name of Brother Walfrid, Born: May 18, 1840, in Ballymote in The Republic of Ireland. He Died: April 17, 1915, at Dumfries. He was Lay Brother of the Marist Brothers Order.

    He was sponsored to do so by the already established and successful Hibernian FC that actually began life in Edinburgh and not as most think, Leith. It all began at St Patrick’s RC church in the Cowgate in Edinburgh and again by an RC Lay Brother.

    St Patrick’s Church in the Cowgate founded a Catholic Young Men’s Society (CYMS) in 1865.The motive was because the Irish community was not being integrated into the wider Edinburgh community and Canon Edward Joseph Hannan looked for ways to achieve this.

    Michael Whelahan, suggested to Canon Hannon that the CYMS should form its own football club and at a meeting on 6 August 1875, Hibernian F.C. was founded. Canon Hannon was its first manager and Michael Whelahan as its first captain.

    All Hibs players had to be members of the CYMS and because of this Hibs have been accused of being the first sectarian football club in Scotland, (a charge commonly levelled at Rangers).

    Hibs played charity matches in benefit of causes other than the Catholic Church, however, and Whelahan once said, “ We were both surprised and delighted at the invitation and can assure you that neither race nor religion were ever a consideration of Hibernian or the CYMS to help such a worthy cause. ”

    During the first few years of their history, Hibs played their matches on The Meadows of the south side of Edinburgh and Hibs established themselves in Scottish football after overcoming some initial sectarian resistance to being an Irish club. A note from the Scottish Football Association stated that:-“ We are catering for Scotsmen, not Irishmen”. Funnily enough it was to be Hibs’ future rivals Hearts who did most to break down this bigoted resistance for hearts defied the rules which stated that no club should play matches against the Irish club.

    Hearts provided the opposition in Hibs’ first match on Christmas Day 1875, which Hearts won 1–0 and with the persistence of Canon Hannan and Whelahan Hibs were eventually accepted by the governing bodies.

    So in fact Hibs founders were the sponsors of the RC churches attempts to start a similar club in Glasgow and in fact the original name proposed for the Glasgow club was to be, “Glasgow Hibernians”.

    Celtic were only one of the Scottish Clubs that were instigated by the Hibs and one such was there you go, “The Auld Firm”, were actually not the original, “Auld Firm”, for Hibs & Hearts beat then too that title. Another truth is that the Celtic Hoops were originally the Hibs official strip and It is believed that when Celtic first took to the pitch it was while wearing a set of the Hibs hooped jerseys.

    Go look at the dates these teams were founded.

    BTW: Historically the Worlds first recorded and documented Football Club began in Edinburgh and they played their games on the Meadows. The written Records of that club still exist. The Foot-Ball Club (active 1824–41) of Edinburgh, Scotland, is the first documented club dedicated to football, and the first to describe itself as a football club. The only surviving club rules forbade tripping, but allowed pushing and holding and the picking up of the ball. Other documents describe a game involving 39 players and “such kicking of shins and such tumbling”.

  128. Glamaig

    Rock’s about to clock on 🙂

  129. K1

    Ayep 🙂

  130. Cactus

    Hey Scotland… have a most excellent Sunday!

    Whose got the funk?

  131. Liz g

    Joannie @ 8.04
    Yes I do know that Joannie….
    I am not offering an opinion of the rights and wrongs of that.
    I certainly think it’s perfectly possible to have some sort of allegiance to another Country or culture.
    Our whole tourist industry depends on it.

    I am just saying that in the park when Celtic is on the field the allegiance is to Ireland…..and well em Ireland is another Country.
    To sing of another Countries military success, against the army of the people of the Country you are standing in front of is offensive.
    As is singing of what you fantasise about doing to a large section of that other Country,or demanding some kind of repatriation, while ofcourse not thinking that one through.

    But either way this has nothing to do with Scotland,and everything to do with taunting and offending the opposite crowd.
    As to who benifits… the singer’s of the song’s that’s fur sure.
    Anyhoo doesn’t Ireland it’s self no create a space in it’s own culture for rembering its military achievements ?
    If this is a serious song of remembering,there are surely more appropriate places than a Glasgow football ground.
    It’s is,it seems to me,a bit disrespectful to have it sung on the same occasions as the one about being up to the knees in someone’s blood!

  132. Cai Larsen

    The song isn’t about the 1916 Easter Uprising, it’s about the so called Black & Tan war which led to the independence of what is now the Irish Republic. Songs celebrating the period are very common. I can think of none that are sectarian in nature, but they do celebrate war – a bit like God Save the Queen & Land of Hope & Glory.

  133. Juteman

    Robert Peffers @ 8.16.
    I think you will find it was Dundee Utd FC, not Dundee FC.
    They were originally called Dundee Hibs.

  134. joannie

    @Liz g – the narrative of The Boys of the Old Brigade is a son consoling his father about the friends he lost during the Easter Rising by saying their sacrifice wasn’t in vain. Its not a particularly triumphalist song, its more of a poignant, bittersweet lyric. I can imagine it doesn’t sound very poignant when belted out by a crowd at a football match though, so yeah, probably not the right time or place for that particular song.

    I’m just a bit worried though that the subtext of this conversation seems to be that any displays of Irishness, whether from Scots of Irish descent or Irish people living in Scotland is to be declared sectarian and put off limits. Isn’t that in itself rather sectarian?

  135. Ian Brotherhood

    @Bzzz (5.10) –

    Jim Kelly is an idiot…I wouldn’t trust him to put his own shoes on.

    Having recently witnessed Kelly toddling along Buchanan Street, I think your wariness is well-founded – he looks like an escapee from an episode of Trumpton.

  136. Robert J. Sutherland

    gus1940 @ 13:47,

    O/T, but it’s late enough on a fairly repetitive thread (=ducking for cover=), so maybe I can now chuck in a response to your posting upthread (and in an earlier thread also).

    First off, the Norway Campaign wasn’t under Churchill’s watch, but Chamberlain’s. It was the failure of the French/British intervention there which in fact led to the fall of Chamberlain, and after something of a wobble, his replacement by Churchill.

    Dunkirk thus was the second ignominious retreat of a British expeditionary force during the War.

    In regards to comments about that, one needs to understand that the BEF in 1940 was a relatively small outfit in comparison with the French Army. Unlike the large standing armies of the major continental powers, the peacetime British Army was essentially a colonial border force. The BEF was a stop-gap adjunct which only just managed to stall a breakthrough in 1914 but failed to do the same in 1940. Not least due to the fact that after the outbreak of WW2, Belgium, paralysed by fear of providing any excuse for a German accusation of provocation, remained strictly neutral until the country was itself attacked, so the supporting British and French had a long way to go to set up suitable lines of defence, while at the same time, by an extraordinary coup de theatre, the German invaders had in fairly short order captured Belgium’s main defensive position, the Maginot-like Fort Eben-Emael, leaving little left to stop or even delay a fast advance.

    So basically, the BEF was outstretched and didn’t have the numbers (or indeed the technology or state of readiness either) to stand on its own in 1940 against the highly-prepared might of the German armed forces, in the air just as much as on the ground.

    Lastly, the position of the Highland Division shouldn’t be confused with the defence of the Dunkirk perimeter. The 51st remained under the command of the French Army throughout, initially well to the east in Lorraine attached as line support troops to the great Hackenberg fortress on the Maginot Line, and the Division was latterly brought back to the south-west to try to help stop the well-known (and well-planned) Panzer breakthrough through the Ardennes and around the western edge of that line.

    The Highland Division’s support lines were able to withdraw to their supply port of Le Havre (including, if I recall correctly, the 52nd (Lowland) Division which had started to deploy from there), but the Highlanders were ordered by Churchill to stay and fight with the French so that the French military and cabinet couldn’t use a total withdrawal as an excuse for mutual recriminations and failure.

    The HD ended up surrounded at St. Valery, which has high cliffs on either side and not sandy beaches. They were sitting ducks to the enemy installed on the heights, as by that time would any boats have been if they had tried to evacuate. They Division had run out of land to fight on and it was too little too late for any evacuation.

    For an interesting blow-by-blow account of that whole situation, see eg.

    There is a fine memorial in St.Valery to the Highland Division, though. And a main highway named in its honour as well. The English hardly knew and very obviously don’t care anyway, but the French have not forgotten.

  137. Donald Urquhart

    Under the OBFA, is is still ok to sing about Dundee FC being soap dodgers?

  138. caz m

    Ian brotherhood 8.41pm

    Thanks for providing the jokes Ian.

    Stuck on a rig in wet and windy scapa flow.

  139. ScottishPsyche

    Isn’t the whole point that the songs and chants deemed offensive have a particular significance when sung by one group of people at another group in a particular setting?

    The songs themselves may or may not contain lyrics or words considered offensive on their own but in that situation, they are a red rag to a bull and incite extreme reactions. That is why context is everything and you cannot just look at the song or chant on its own merits.

  140. yesindyref2

    Yes, the French stay behind their heavily fortified and basically impenetrable Maginot line, and the Germans said about Belgium: “Neutral? What do you mean, neutral?”.

    Switzerland which maintains its neutrality has or had, national service to preserve its neutrality. It even had / has a navy! One of the reasons though that Belgium was a found member of NATO, as was Iceland. One for all, all for one.

  141. Giving Goose

    I have an Irish surname.
    I’m Scottish to my core.
    Why would I sing foreign songs about foreign subjects?

  142. velofello

    Question no1: Is the article, and Paul, a real person? Fake news mebbe?By his words of recognising his errors I’d would have thought “Paul” would have stepped forward to publicly explain his case.

    Question No2 ; Why in quick progression has Torrance written of the Ulsterisation of Scottish politics; Ruthie made a Colonel in the weekend TA; the DUP handed +£billion; and the BBC filming orange parades?

    My view is that the UK elite will stoop to no act too low or vile to act against Scotland’s independence and so maintain hold of their cash cow Scotland, and their perceived world status. What did one of them say? “Without Scotland we are diminished”. Whilst remaining in the UK Scotland is diminished. Brexit is going to impoverish you personally, in your pocket. It really is time to get actively involved with the SNP, the Yes movement, Women for Indy, or whatever suits you, if you truly care.

  143. Liz g

    Joannie @ 8.38
    Oh joannie, I hope that you don’t think that from anything I have said.
    I do find the whole sectarian thing absolutely contemptible and will speak that way about it.
    But not Ireland or the Irish.
    You did ask why that song would be offensive and I was trying to tell you that I could see it as offensive because….
    I certainly don’t find it so.
    My position on it all is that as Jockanesewindtalker said earlier,the people are being used,and I don’t just mean lately.
    As an atheist the way religion is used to hurt people goes back centuries and I will have no nice words to say for it.
    And like you,the Ramping up of these division’s in Scotland is worrisome,and I believe it’s only being done to try to prevent our Independence.
    So….My response to it is,this is not a Scottish issue,and should not become one.
    I have to hope that we can get a handle on this nonsense in Scotland going forward,and please believe me when I say,that I can see an Edinburgh/Dublin influence as more positive for the victims of the establishment games being played on the people ALL the people of Northern Ireland.
    I hope you and I are good?

  144. Dr Jim

    No matter which way you slice it when it comes to this dire mentally irregular subject it doesn’t have the feel good factor does it

  145. JLT

    @ Proud Cybernat 3.57pm

    Hi mate. Yep, it was truly a bizarre turn. For someone to raise religion in the middle of a political debate is always alarming, and too be honest, rather insidious. It always leads one to ask new questions about an individual when they decide to advocate their religion right into the heart of the politics of the State. I could honestly say, that this work colleague of mine (whom I worked with on a sister site about three years ago), would honestly utterly condemn the leaders of Iran, let alone ISIS, for their advocation of promoting religion into the political sphere, while not seeing the irony from his own statement, position and beliefs. It is staggering that people actually condemn others over their political and religious beliefs without realising that they are looking into a mirror themselves. I can only shake my head in disbelief at such folk. And this guy is not a daft person. He is actually in a position of responsibility – I kidd you not.

    And yet …that was not the only eyebrow raising moment of the week. Another friend that I know (and I have known this guy since I was 8 years old when I attended Harrysmuir in Livingston) decided to take a wee trip to Belfast. His post on Facebook on the 11th and prior to the Glorious 12th …stated ‘Now this is what you call a bonfire!’.

    And the only reason I knew where he was at that moment, was because of pictures on here from the Rev’s article on the 12th as well as all the other condemnation posts on Facebook leading up to the 12th. My childhood friend who I rarely see these days (except from his odd post on Facebook) had decided to attend the ‘celebrations’ and ‘festivities’ in Belfast, and if anything, this was the one point during the week that probably affected and appalled me the most. For my friend, Ian, who got 8 ‘O’ Grades with ‘A’ passes as well as 5 Highers with a mixtures of ‘A’s and ‘B’s during the exams of 1984 and 1985 also saw no problems with attending an Orange event.

    I found this to be the most depressing point during the week as it was saddening example that a person can pass every exam under the sun, but somehow, can find, nor take, any enlightenment from the education that he was given.

    I found it truly sad, that Ian …should have been the perfect example of what a person can be through educational achievement, and therefore should have bettered himself and others in so many ways …but instead, proven to me (and others) that sometimes for all the knowledge that one can gain …wisdom is not guaranteed.

    In its own little way …thank God this last week is now done.

  146. Robert Peffers

    Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 3:33 pm:
    “Remember, the OBFA is not about sectarianism.”

    You are right it isn’t specifically about sectarianism, Peter. The ignorance of the people who wish to rescind the OBFA is abysmal. You would imagine hey at least could read English and know what the initial letters stood for the first two are offensive and behaviour and statistically not only are the figures for the numbers up before the bench and for those who have actually been found guilty are mainly from Celtic & Rangers and of those the majority are for sectarianism.

    The entire population of Scotland knows that and the majority of both football supporters and members of the public think it is a good law.

  147. Robert J. Sutherland

    JLT @ 22:05,

    It’s not actually about religion at all. If the workmate had been quizzed about the tenets of his professed “protestant” beliefs, I doubt if he could have articulated anything coherent about them. Likewise I doubt his church attendance was anything except honoured in its absence.

    It’s actually far worse than that. It’s pure atavistic tribalism, as still besets many parts of Africa. These Orange and Green tribes are the Tsutsis and Hutus of Scotland (inherited and sustained FGS by proxy from Norn Ireland). Or indeed the warring Big Endians and Little Endians of that 18th-century satire, Gulliver’s Travels.

    The main function of sectarianism is, and always has been, social control. Like the poor Southern whites of the USA, convince the disadvantaged that there is a group even more lowly than them that they can despise, and you can distract them from their own reality and manipulate them.

    Maybe we don’t fully realise just how insidiously influential that exercise of control through sectarianism still is in Scotland, not least in the media.

    Maybe that workmate, for example, got his job by that means. But couldn’t articulate it out loud because it would expose undue influence, and thus possibly some civil if not criminal malfeasance.

    Hence, I believe, the real reason for all this heavy-duty antagonism to the OBFA – for the first time ever it really challenges these hidden channnels of influence. No wonder the bigots are afraid, but in an odd way they are victims too. It’s those yanking the strings who have the most to fear.

  148. Robert Peffers

    @Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:04 pm:

    “Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of this issue. The Act is not about being AT football. It does not restrict itself to an incident AT football.”

    That’ll be why it is titled,,”The Offensive Behaviour at Football Act”, will it then, Peter? Yet you talk of other people’s ignorance. Here’s a hint for you – it isn’t called the Offensive Behaviour at football for nothing.

    Matter of fact the full title of the act is, “”The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act”.

    The eventual thing that pushed it through the Parliament was the incidents of threats and even bullets being sent to the then Celtic Manager. Yet we have numpties like you attempting to defend the indefensible.

    Want to know what will most likely happen if that idiot Kelly were to manage to have the Act repealed? Ill tell you anyway.

    The offensive behaviour will increase again as will the violence. And not only at football matches, or by fans travelling to away games. Then the public will complain and the Scottish MSM and broadcasters will have a field day of great big banner headlines and much more severe restrictions will be put in force.

    Perhaps a ban of Old Firm Fans travelling to away games or being forced to play their games behind closed doors and big fines on any club whose fans offend and break the other, and older laws that can be used to deal with such behaviour.

  149. Robert Peffers

    @Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:11 pm:

    “Effijy. Is there any debate about sectarian songs? Is anyone defending sectarian songs? I am certainly not.”

    Well, Peter, you sure as hell could have fooled me about that.

    As I pointed out and posted – the full title of the act tells it is plain that the act covers offensive behaviour and specifically applies to football and if you fondly imagine that the singing of sectarian songs is not offensive behaviour then you forfeit any right to refer to other on Wings as ignorant.

  150. Ian Brotherhood

    Met elderly family friend (ex-neighbour) earlier today.

    Daily Mail reader, ‘No’ in 2014, voted for Brexit, admires Farage as ‘a normal guy who likes a pint and a smoke’ etc etc…you get the picture.

    After the indyref result we agreed not to discuss politics. In the half dozen or so times we’ve met since then, that’s what’s happened. But today, after he raised the subject of GCC ‘discussing’ OO marches in our shared hometown, he said ‘it looks like the Troubles are going to start here.’

    This dude is 20 yrs older than me and isn’t daft. Aye, he’s a unionist at heart, but he’s from an Irish Catholic background, a ‘staunch’ Labour-voting family. He’s worried.

    Gives me no big pleasure to say this, but if he’s at all typical of the SLabbers who voted Tory in the GE (I suspect he did, but I didn’t ask him and he didn’t say, never would confess in any case) then we should take heart – this guy would never ever vote for ‘that Sturgeon lassie’, and will happily repeat that to anyone who’ll listen. Five years ago? He’d have sworn blind that no circumstances would ever arise in which he’d vote Tory.

    There’s a lot of soul-searching going on right now by people who’ve been consistently lied-to by a succession of utterly hopeless, blinkered SLabbers who seem to be fuelled 24/7 by pure SNPBaaaaad. When Brexit starts taking the ‘UK’ down the lavvy and the U-bend is in sight, a lot of these folk will recognise that indy isn’t a fanciful notion – it’s an escape route. They’ll hold their noses if they have to vote Yes in indyref2, but make no mistake – if there’s a clear and present danger to the contents of their wallets? They’ll do it.

  151. joannie

    @Liz g – yes, you and I are good. And mostly in agreement too, I’d say, aside from a few quibbles about the details.

  152. Robert J. Sutherland

    Ian Brotherhood @ 22:47,

    It’s not just a money thing. For years, two-faced “Scottish” Labour burnt the sectarian candle at both ends, when it suited them.

    The Ruthless Unionist Party OTOH isn’t at all equivocal, it’s taking all comers – provided they’re Loyalists.

    That must really concern people like your ex-neighbour. And with good reason. Developments are shaking up all the familiar allegiances people like him thought they could always rely upon.

  153. Phronesis

    There are very sound reasons for addressing unacceptable behaviour at football matches that spills outside of the football grounds and results in fear and misery-

    ‘The Old Firm fixture between Glasgow Rangers and Celtic has long-standing connections with conflictual political and religious identities. As a consequence, matches between the two teams have often been blighted by incidents of collective violence and sectarianism. More recently, however, there has been increasing concern regarding the impact of this fixture on violence against women. Indeed, the fact that the First Minister of Scotland was questioned on the issue in the Scottish Parliament on March 3, 2011, highlights political perceptions of the severity of the issue (Scottish Parliament, 2011).
    Moreover, in the same month, a Joint Action Group (JAG) was established “to maintain and protect the good reputation of Scottish football and to contribute positively to efforts to tackle wider social issues—in particular alcohol misuse, violence and bigotry”, with a specific interest in “improving an understanding of the relationship between football and domestic abuse”, particularly around Old Firm matches (JAG, 2011).’

    DOI: 10.1177/2158244013504207

    The work of JAG should be supported by all football clubs and their fans if the game is to be regarded as a family friendly sport, fit for the 21st century- what would be the motivation to contest any of these aims-

    ‘The remit of the group consisted of the eight commitments agreed at the Football Summit on 8 March 2011.

    1. To support the introduction of tough new measures to reduce alcohol consumption before and after games, and to make a significant contribution to the longer term effort to tackle Scotland’s alcohol problem

    2. To ensure that all those involved in matches are fully aware of their legal responsibilities

    3. To consider the expansion of Football Banning Orders and the clubs’ own codes of conduct to respond to criminal behaviour of fans away from the grounds specifically on domestic abuse

    4. To ensure that the Police have the support of all parties to the enforcement of the law in relation to public order including on the internet. This would include consideration both of the consistency of the policing of football in Scotland and the potential role of a dedicated Football Intelligence Unit

    5. To support the expansion of the excellent existing community and social partnerships between the “Old Firm” to take every opportunity to demonstrate mutual respect and cooperation

    6. To ensure that the existing rules and regulations of Scottish football are rigorously applied and respected

    7. In light of information provided by the Chief Constable of Strathclyde Police, to explore jointly and understand the practicalities of new fixture scheduling opportunities to minimise damage to communities

    8. To offer full support to all the work by clubs, authorities and police to work with communities to address alcohol misuse, sectarianism, racism, domestic abuse and violence’

  154. heedtracker

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    16 July, 2017 at 10:47 pm
    Met elderly family friend (ex-neighbour) earlier today.

    The Troubles were here in Scotland and England anyway. Car bombs and shootings stayed 50 odd miles away from Scotland but England suffered.

    That’s the real horror behind the yoons and the UK media stoking it all up in Scotland and NI. They dont want it to end. They want it back.

    Why else would this tory nutcase be sliming around Ibrox for example?

  155. mike cassidy

    Robert J Suthrland 8.48

    And that whole Dunkirk situation arose because the German attackers (Rommel and all) were out their boxes on crystal meth – or pervitin as it was called then.

    Hitler was so jealous of the speedy military success that he gave his famous ‘halt’ order rather than letting them overwhelm the allied forces.

    Finished “Blitzed” today. Well worth reading.

    No idea if any of the drug stuff will appear in Christopher Nolan’s “Dunkirk” movie.

  156. liz g

    Joannie @
    Phew…glad to hear it, my friend.
    I know that you don’t want to intigrate the schools, from previous conversations….but that’s a whole other thing!
    I cannot be anything else other than horrible to and about the sectarianism in Scotland.
    But it doesn’t mean that we can’t chat about it.
    Please don’t think that I am speaking from ignorance…. I do know a thing or two about it….to my cost.
    But also if you are not comfortable with the stuff I say, please tell me.
    What ever else could I say now but
    Peace Always…..X

  157. Cactus

    Tonight we were in Glasgow’s ‘The Stand’.

    Michael Redmond hosting…

    He’s some dude.


    West end.


    Love Scotland.


    Whose the victim & who is the aggressor?

    3 up, all across.

  158. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:15 pm:

    “@Rev Stu, Colin Alexander and Robert Pfeffers – I’m sorry I still don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade.”

    As an aside my surname is Peffers – A good old Scottish Name as in Strathpeffer. Which town’s name is derived from the Gaelic Strath is an area of low lying land and peffer is between two rivers. Strathpeffer is indeed between two rivers.

    Anyway, I digress.
    ” … I’m sorry I still don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Its a song about the old IRA who fought for Irish independence and were no more terrorists than George Washington’s men.”

    Sorry but you are wrong. The Old IRA were Irish United Kingdom subjects who were using violence against other Irish United Kingdom subjects.

    “There is nothing sectarian or hateful about the lyrics and while it may not be an appropriate song for a football match, that shouldn’t be a police matter.”

    Oh! Come on. The entire history of the Irish troubles is historically sectarian and I’m going right back to the Norman Conquest of Ireland there.

    “In October 1171, King Henry landed a large Anglo-Norman army in Ireland to establish control over both the Cambro-Normans and the Irish. The Norman lords handed their conquered territory to Henry. He let Strongbow hold Leinster in fief and declared the cities to be crown land.”

    The background to all that was that the Holy Roman Se, (The Pope in Rome), made the English King Lord of the Kingdom of Ireland.

    Later Henry VIII decided to appoint himself the head of the Christian Church in the Kingdom of England because he wanted to change his wives having fancied a change or seven of bed-mates.

    The Church of Rome and the King of England fell out for the Church of Rome did not like that being supplanted by a mere mortal and thus began the sectarianism that has bedevilled the whole of Britain ever since.

    The never ending battles between Christian sects is with us today. Just read the Treaty of Union if you do not believe me.

    Here is Article 2 of the Treaty of Union.

    “THAT the Succession of the Monarchy to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and of the Dominions thereto belonging, after Her Most Sacred Majesty, and in Default of Issue of Her Majesty, be, remain, and continue to the Most Excellent Princess Sophia, Electoress and Dutchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of her Body being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled by an Act of Parliament made in England in the twelfth Year of the Reign of his late Majesty King William the Third, Intituled, An Act for the further Limitation of the Crown, and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject: And that all Papists, and Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and forever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the Imperial Crown of Great Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging, or any Part thereof, and in every such Case the Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to, and be enjoyed by such Person being a Protestant, as should have inherited and enjoyed the same in case such Papist or Person marrying a Papist, was naturally Dead according to the Provision for the Descent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England in the first Year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary entituled An Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.”

    When James VI of Scotland became also James I of England the English did not like it. Under the laws in force throughout Christendom, (except in Scotland)Divine Right of Kings), James VI should have just added the three country Kingdom of England to his existing Kingdom of Scotland but because of Rome falling out with the English Monarchy James was not sovereign in S because the Declaration of Arbroath made the people legally sovereign and so James could not make a United Kingdom as he could not give away the sovereignty he did not legally have.

    However the Stewart dynasty were predominately Roman Catholics and when the English Parliament deposed their monarch who also wore the independent crown of Scotland they began what they still call The Jacobite Rebellion.

    The truth was, that as the parliament of England had rebelled and deposed their monarch they were the actual rebels against the rightful king of England and as Scotland was still independent until the Act of Union the Jacobites were not rebels as you cannot rebel against a king who is not your own and because the English Parliament and Scottish parliament were independent in 1688 Scotland had not changer their monarch and that is what they were still fighting about at the Battle of the Boyne.

    Our whole history since the English King Henry VIII is all about sectarianism and the partition of Ireland was all part of sectarianism too. Remember Southern Ireland did not declare itself a republic until 1937. It was part of the UK until then and all that because old Henry King of England had a fancy to change his wives so often – How many people have died for that man’s sexual proclivity?

    BTW: I have NO religion so have no axe to grind for either sect.

  159. Dan Huil

    Looking forward to a fun-packed week of britnat brexit mayhem.

  160. Robert Peffers

    @Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 4:39 pm:

    You sure as hell are not the best person to be calling wingers ignorant.

  161. Ealasaid

    @RJS, @Gus1940
    My cousin doing the family history tells me that her father was in the 51st at Dunkirk and survived. It really was a matter of survival at the time.

    Somebody else mentioned, can’t find who, that French had been evacuated and that it should have been left to the French. But the French were not covered by the rules of war as the British were and if they had been captured they would have been shot. When the beaches were cleared the remaining 51st dropped their weapons and surrendered. They were taken as prisoners of war.

    But like most who survived the war, my uncle did not talk much about his experiences.

  162. Liz g

    Me @ 3.49 this afternoon…
    Unless nobody read the comment…… thanks to all of you who did,,,for NOT pointing out…. that my mistake completely changed its meaning.
    Shouting Fire in an “empty” room….is irrelevant.
    It is ofcourse in a crowded theatre…as the Rev quoted later that is the actual point.
    Hey Ho….at least I didny get flung out!
    Well this time!!

  163. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “The song isn’t about the 1916 Easter Uprising, it’s about the so called Black & Tan war”

    Man, they must feel total idiots for putting all those references to Easter in it, then.

  164. galamcennalath

    The problem with the Unionists adopting their default SNPBad to everything is that they end up not doing the right things.

    They don’t pursue what is best for Scotland, they pursue what is best for their party and their Union. Then ordinary Scots are their ‘collateral damage’.

    It’s only a matter of time until their stupidity results in someone being injured or worse.

  165. Cactus

    Somewhere in the night.



    Life is a Journey, strangers!

  166. Cactus

    Whisky is good.

    Love Scotland.


    Never not.

    Always the victim, never the mark twain.

    Ahm a yong gun.


  167. Cactus

    Good holiday Monday morning Scotland.

    How was ur yesterday?

    It’s ur day off.

    Think NOW.

    “Back in black”

  168. ScottishPsyche


    GoT tonight. Came to it late and resisted the hype for so long but it is so good.

  169. Ghillie

    Apologies folkss,just dropped in nd haven’t yet read throuh the comments. This is for Paul.

    Dear Paul,

    You were in your final yar o studying for a Law degree when the police came to your door…

    For sstaarters, what a fabulous insight into being on THAT side o the Law. One you will carry with you for the rest of life, I hope. And ecept as the gift of insight that this experience surely is.

    But now,I have to ask you exactly how uch had you aken on board rom your studies? This being your FINAL year and much learning presumaably, has been undertaen up tothis point.

    You broke a law.

    Doesn’t matter if you think it is not the best framed law in the World or entirely fit for purpose.

    You, a final year law student,aperson,probabaly better versed in matters of the law,broke a law, which I expect was welldiscused on your course and was certainly well disscussed int eh wider arena of the media and onlie.

    We all now that ignorance is no defence in the Law. But ost folk are also wellaware that not fancying a Law is even less defene when it comesto breaking a law and on top of tht, being seen and getting caught.


    Am not proud of your attitude at all but am glad you learned something from the good ol of SCARO.

    But what would you e lie now if you hadn’t been hauled in to the police station to eplain yourself?

    Wouldyour ignorance and foolhardiness hve stayed with youor the rest of your life and through your working carreer?

    You have been blessed. God moves in mysterious ways. I hope this lesson has not fallen on stoney ground.

    Make sure you use your Law degree, your opportunities, and most importantly, your experience in the most positve way possible. Don’t waste this

  170. Cactus

    Feel the vibration Scotland…

    Ur making it.

    We are.

    “Get ready!”

  171. Cactus

    Live NOW.

  172. Ghillie


    That is what my ‘sticky keys’ writng looks like uncorrected!

    Have fun making sense of that post!

  173. Cactus

    Taps aff.

    Ain’t talking about ra water.

    Free yourself.

    Do it now!

  174. Cactus

    Ur beautiful babes.


  175. t42

    Backbenchers off the leash? Its notable none of the party leaders are around…maybe they can be put on the spot at next weeks first ministers ques..ahhh!-Isn’t that unfortunate timing.
    The parliament should be extended till end of July with immediate effect.

  176. Cactus

    Black n tan… ah dunno whit it means in political speak but ah’ve tried it.

    Guinness & yer Sweetheart Stout, aye yeah.

    Glasgow knows.

    Tis a long way to the top if ye wanna R&R.

    I am young Frankenstein.

    Gene knows.

  177. Cactus

    Be the preacher…

    Call on a friend..

    How ye doing Smallaxe.

    Peace always.

    Scotland first and always.

    What is the UK.. no really, wtf is ra UK?

    Answer not required.
    “…so far away”

    Take me down..

    Hail heid approaching Ceaser!

    Hail ye l’Alba!


  178. Cactus

    “For those about to ROCK… WE!”


  179. Ghillie

    Tidied up version:

    Apologies folks, just dropped in and haven’t yet read through the comments. This is for Paul.

    You were in your final year of studying for a Law degree when the police came to your door…

    For starters, what fabulous insight into being on THAT side of the Law ! One you will carry with you for the rest of your life, I hope. And accept as the gift of insight that experience surely is.

    But now, I have to ask you exactly how much you had taken on board from your studies. This being your FINAL year and much learning presumably having been undertaken by this point.

    You broke a law.

    Doesn’t matter if you don’t think it is the best framed law in the World or not entirely fit for purpose.

    You, a final year law student, a person, probably better versed than most in matters of the law, broke a law. A law, which I expect was probably well disscussed on your course, and was certainly well discussed in the wider arena of the media and online.

    We all know that ignorance is no defence in the Law. But most folk are well aware that not fancying a law is even less defence when it comes to breaking a law, and on top of that, being seen and caught.


    Am not proud of your attitude at all but at least you learned something from the good folk of SACRO.

    But what would you be like now if you hadn’t been hauled in to the police station to explain yourself ?

    Would your ignorance and foolhardiness have stayed with you for the rest of your life and through your working career ?

    You have been blessed. God moves in mysterious ways. I hope this lesson has not fallen on stoney ground.

    Make sure you use your law degree,your oportunities and most importantly, your experience in the most positve way possible. Do not waste this.

  180. joannie

    @Robert Peffers – like I said, you could characterize any ex colony’s fight for independence in the same way you do Ireland’s and if you want to view history through that Imperialist lens, that’s up to you. Its a bit ironic to see a Scottish nationalist buy into British establishment propaganda about the Irish, but its no skin off anyone’s nose but your own.

  181. Reluctant Nationalist

    @ Robert J Sutherland, re: the BEF in 1940

    You certainly know your stuff.

    Episodes 2 and 3 of ‘World at War’ – “Distant War”, and “France Falls” – are also good for illustrating much of the info you’ve pointed out, I’d hope you agree.

  182. Ghillie

    Hey there Cactus !

    Aye, Scotland always = )

    Have a lovely Monday pet !

  183. William Wallace

    If bigotry kin be beat withoot laws, then how come it’s been so rampant on the west coast o Scotland ah this time. It’s no jist the futba either. It’s cultural, familial and historical tae. It’s aboot time that Scotland eradicated this pish once and for all.

    What’s really bathered me this last week or so is the attempted normalisation o the OO on the bbc and elsewhere. (It shows just how much control the UK state has in controlling media output).

    Are we really gonna hae to go back there or are the muppet crew gonnae lift themselves up into the 21st century alang wi the rest o us. Hiv we tae drag them kicking and screaming or what?

    In international terms it’s an absolute fkin embarrassment and stain on Scotland’s international reputation. Pit it tae bed ya neanderthalic halfwits.

    Come and join us eh!

  184. Cactus




  185. Cactus


  186. Cactus


    There’s the truth.

    Xo you?

  187. Cactus

    I don’t throw love around lightly.. ah mean it.

  188. Cactus

    Do you?

  189. Cactus

    Hey Ghillie.

    It’s still Sunday.

    Ah’ll always love ye.

    Ye can’t change love, it’s irreversible.

    Think about that holiday Monday, till then…

    We’re still partying.

    We’re honda three day bender.

    Dig it.

  190. Cactus

    From the bottom of the well..

    Ahm Airborne.

    Ahm born.

    Are you?

    Just like you.

  191. Ghillie


    Love you too = )

    You make us all smile 🙂

    Love Scotland always xxx

  192. David

    God bless Audie Murphy the 24 hour cowboy lol

  193. Cactus

    Fuck yeah!

    Let’s get rocked!

    Love Scotland X.


  194. Cactus


    Welcome to the 17th of July.

    What a day.

    What a number.

    Ur welcome.

    What’s the morning gonna bring..?

  195. Cactus

    Be alive.

    Nite nite.

    Morning mornin’.

  196. Meg merrilees

    Just wanted Cactus to know he’s not the only one still awake.
    Have been doing paperwork – groan.
    Didn’t realise it was so late until I looked out the window and saw the light!

    Wonder what today’s Brexit round 2 will bring?

    Especially after Barnier has held discussions with Nicola, Carwyn and Jeremy Corbyn.

    Off for some sleep. Nt Nt, Cactus

  197. Az

    It’s sair fecht.

    But it dizny hurt.

    Much 😉

  198. Jack Collatin

    England has pulled up the drawbridge, and filled their moat with flesh eating fishies, and fucked off on holiday for 3 months.
    Brexit? What Brexit?
    Nothing to see here. Move on or you’ll get arrested for disturbing the M-Peace.
    Arguably the biggest constitutional and economic crisis to hit England since Harold burnt the cakes, and 560 odd English MP’s pack their buckets and spades and head off to warmer climes.
    There’s denial and then there’s head in the sands of the Costas.

  199. Ken500

    Illegal Partition of Ireland 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928.. Not for Catholics in NI. In parts of Belfast Catholics were denied the vote up to the 1960’s. Ie they could not vote because they were Catholic. Total illegal discrimination. Bernadette Devlin. The Catholics were denied public housing and jobs. 90% of public jobs went to Protestants. The ‘handshake’. Totally corruptly and illegally. Supported by Westminster Unionists for votes at Westminster.

    Ireland was illegally Partitioned by Lloyd George. Breaking all Laws on Human rights and self determination. League of Nations established after the 1WW? A Home Rule Bill ( Land issues – a land league) was supposed to be passed in Westminster two weeks after the start of the 1WW. This was delayed set aside for the duration of the war, by agreement. A nationalist battalion fought in the 1WW with the Allies. Even though they want HomeRule/Independence. The Protestant refused to fight with them in the same Battalion. There was total discrimination

    There was a mass Home Rule campaign in Ireland throughout the 19C. Lead by Charles Stewart Parnell. A Protestant landowner. Protestants were the only ones with any rights, to land, position of power etc. It was 1861 before Catholics were allowed any civil rights to stand for Parliament. The majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule/Independence because of the affect Westminster rule was having in Ireland. The Famine not relieved. Millions dying. Migration to the US etc as the only escaped. Food was still being exported from Ireland by unionist landowners even as the Irish were dying in their hundreds of thousands. Poverty, ill health and injustice. The cruel put down of peaceful demonstration by the British State. Killing innocent people. The cruelty of the Black and Tans. The NI unionists used the 1WW to illegally import arms. Nearly via Scottish ports. Captain Crawford backed up by the British State. The British army based in Ireland were party to the illegal activities. They did not put down the division. Based in Stormont Castle. An army of occupation. One was assassinated. Led to terrible reprisals.

    Similar to Scotland in the 19C Not allowed to carry sword’s. Own land or a horse. (Wear tartan) Scotland has gone through the Ballot Box because people could. In Ireland Catholics were denied the vote. They took to arms, as a last resort. The British State manipulation in Ireland is an injustice. There for the world to acknowledge. The same in Scotland but people could go through the Ballot box. Unlike Ireland where people were denied the vote and totally discriminated against. They still are in NI. A Law to itself. Breaking every Law in the book of descrimination backed up by Unionists in Westminster for Unionists votes. Breaking U.K./International Law. Totally illegal. Backed up illegally by UK taxpayers. The IR has a much more successful economy.

    NI (1.8 million) gets a settlement of £42Billion. How much do they raise in revenues? – Less than £28Billion. Funded to Norwegian levels. To keep the Protestant bigots and racists quiet. Continuing to carry out their illegal activities. Never held to account. A Facist State. The 12th of July in NI is just an absolute disgrace. A campaign of bigotry, hatred and racism backed up by Unionists at Westminster, An affront to equality, civility and the rule of Law.

  200. Fred

    @ Mike, Crack Troops then?

    @ Jack, it was Alfred wot burnt the cakes!

    Hoolets have been busy, forgot this was the Ferr!

  201. Fred

    @ Boris, the bulk of the Scottish electorate didn’t swallow any of this Tory pish, it’s hardly the SNP’s fault that there are so many stupid bastards/unionists in parts of this country!

  202. Jack Collatin

    Fred, I know, I know. I’ve just seen the Canadians off at the airport after two intense weeks ‘familying’.
    It came as a greta surprise to them that two suppers from the chippie didn’t cost £24.80. (Chewin ‘ The Fat.)
    I’m still in the ‘re-entry’ period when I don’t need to lock the bathroom door again.
    That wee rabble rouser Kelly will do it to me every time.
    A disgusting little man on any level.
    Harald was the one who got severe migraine when an arrow zapped him in the eye?

  203. Robert Louis

    Jack Collatin at 0556 am,

    Good point. Given the absolute dire state of the UK economy, and the utterly destructive effects we already have from the insanity called brexit, I cannot fathom how ANY politician can even contemplate going on holiday.

    The media is not really giving it proper coverage, but brexit is already trashing the economy of the entire UK. The way of life which people currently have, will soon be gone, we are ALL going to be much poorer whether you have a job or not, and all for what? I mean seriously, can somebody tell me what the almighty benefit of leaving the EU actually is?

    Angry at both Labour AND the SNP for going along with this utter insanity. Their is NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD BREXIT DEAL. NOT NOW, NOT EVER, AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR SCOTLAND.

    Anybody who says such a thing can be achieved is just a bare faced liar or a complete idiot of truly epic proportions.

    The EU keeps saying ‘the clock is ticking’, and they are right, but in a different way, the clock is ticking on the day arriving very soon, when the UK economy starts dropping like a stone. Once it starts, it will never end. It will be the mother of all economic disasters.

  204. Ken500

    There are now phoney unelected Tory representation in Scotland. Not democracy, Breaking all rules of democratic process. Illegal and contemptible by the unelected (in Scotland) Westminster Unionists breaking Scottish/UK/International Law. A total affront to democracy. Trying to bring the economy down.

    The UK is a facist state. The Tories are an international disgrace. A laughing stock. Trying to ruin the world economy to line their own pockets. A absolute disgrace.A lame duck farce of crooked, corrupt individuals. Just a question of how much longer can this farce continue. Killing and maiming millions wasting £Billions of public money on groteque projects of no value. £Trns in debt. Totally clueless. The unionists liars. Corrupting the Scottish political system. Most of them should be in jail. Chinless wonders. Not nice and dim.

  205. GC

    I fully support independence for Scotland. I believe that we will become a prosperous, forward looking and democratic country.
    I ask the proponents of the OB Act one question:- Give one instance where someone has been convicted under the Act whose offences could not have been prosecuted under pre-existing statutes.
    I submit that there are none.
    The Scottish Govt panicked in the aftermath of the “shame game” (Celtic v Rangers March 2011) and felt it had to be seen to ‘do something’. The OB Act has been sternly criticised by judges as it demands that the police are asked to make a judgement on what is “offensive”. I had a Che Guevara banner at a game and the steward asked a cop if IT was offensive. Come on. Btw the cop ‘didnt know’.
    Any rowdy or violent behaviour can easily and more decisively prosecuted under other legilation. Look at how many prosecutions under the act fail to achieve convictions.
    The arguments above re indy, the Orange Order, etc etc are irrelevant. The act was drafted and passed in haste, it has caused unnecessary confusion and has achieved nothing in terms of reducing antisocial or bigotted behaviour. Its time it was repealed.

  206. Ken500

    Brexit will cost more for less rights. The Tories are wasting £Billions of public money. To line their and their cronies pockets in schemes of no value. illegally defrauding the public purse. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow Trident etc. The EU is a diversion for them. A distraction so they can do their worst. They have already mucked up the world economy wilh illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. They now hope to continue on that course. To destroy lives and communities. Especially in Scotland, if they are not stopped.

    In Scotland there is an alternative as over 50%+ realise. Independence in the EU which is coming soon. To end this undemocratic farce of an unequal union. Getting rid of the unelected, illegal sycophants that go with it. To have a more equal, fairer, happier more prosperous country. Not a union with a facist, illegal State. Breaking all International Laws and convention and getting away with it. Keeping the criminality and corruption under the Official Secrets Act. Instead of justice.

  207. Seumas

    As a Celtic supporter of near 40 years, I well remember the days of out and out sectarian, bigoted & offensive behaviour because I admit to indulging in it at the height of the Troubles in Irelands 6 northern counties in particular. Now, for me, its all about 90 mins of support for the club, the players and management with maybe some berating of opposition fans, players & referee thrown in for good measure.
    I do support what the OBAF Act is attempting to but it needs better definition of what is merely “innappropriate” behaviour, like singing songs of a political nature, and what is offensive, stuff related to others politics, religion, ethnicity or sexual preference. The Act leaves it to individual officers to decide on the spot and i think this is where many attempted convictions falter. If it takes a list of permissable songs, then that should be the way forward.
    For those who want to sing about their political opinions beliefs i suggest keeping them for an appropriate venue, plenty of opportunity in pubs and clubs to share these beliefs. I love the songs of Irish freedom but i also understand people pay into football to watch their team not hear my beliefs, so I respect that, sadly, respect is in short supply in football.

    Ps, for those still calling it the “Old Firm” I suggest you read up on the laws on liquidation of companies/businesses, the “Old Firm” no longer exists no matter how much the new Ibrox club brainwashes you.

  208. Fred

    U can’t fight the Brexit catastrophe until un-committed Scots realise exactly the nature & scale of this catastrophe.
    The Tories refought the referendum at the General Election & lost, how we fare at Indyref2 only Brexit will tell.

    @Jack, “Fish & visitors go off after three days!” Benjamin Franklin.

  209. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:39 am:

    “@Robert Peffers – like I said, you could characterize any ex colony’s fight for independence in the same way you do Ireland’s and if you want to view history through that Imperialist lens, that’s up to you. Its a bit ironic to see a Scottish nationalist buy into British establishment propaganda about the Irish, but its no skin off anyone’s nose but your own.”

    Are you for real?

    Not only have I quoted for you the 100% correct history of how Ireland, and the rest of Britain, descended into centuries of sectarianism that not only dominated the political events in Britain but I nailed it where it belongs. Jointly at the door of the English monarchy, the English parliament and the Holy Roman Se.

    There is absolutely nothing that you, or anyone else, can produce that will make that history different. Yet here you are accusing me of buying into, “BRITISH (sic), propaganda.

    You are the one that has been sold, and swallowed whole, the ENGLISH parliaments Westminster propaganda and as yet have failed to digested it.

    The whole truth is that, in the first instance, the Holy Roman Se. Which at that time was the only Christian religious body decided to interfere in the Irish Kingdom’s religious beliefs.

    Rome appointed the King of England as Lord of Ireland in an effort to convert the native Irish to Christianity and the Norman Conquest of Ireland began. That was under Henry II of England. Until we get to Henry VIII most of Britain was just Christian as there was no protestant sects of Christianity.

    Henry VIII split with Rome because of his lifestyle and his divorces and executions of his many wives. So Henry declared himself the head of the Christian Church in England and then tried to force all of Britain into accepting the King of England as the head of the Christian Religion i.e. he created the Protestant sect of the Christian Church he, “Protested”, against the Church of Rome and made himself Head of the, “Protestant”, sect of Christianity.

    British politics and life has been dominated by sectarianism ever since and every major political event since then has involved sectarianism and it has killed millions of the people of Britain. Note that Theresa May has just decided to take the OO as her partners at Westminster.

    Yet you imagine I have been fooled into accepting Westminster propaganda? Sheesh!

    I nearly said, “You couldn’t make that up”, but you just did make it up and posted here on wings.

    There is absolutely no doubt that sectarianism began in Britain when Rome appointed the King of England as Lord of Ireland and his successors later had themselves declared Kings of Ireland and that is still, (the mainly Irish), sectarianism we face in Scotland’s streets today with Orange Order Marches and a Treaty of Union that begins by prohibiting Catholics from the throne.

    Note I have no religion and thus no religious axe to grind.

  210. Ken500

    Private sports clubs are supported with £Millions of public money, being chronically mismanaged. Crooks drainig these organisations with loaded debt. Defrauding the punters. They should obey the Law or else. Everyone else is expected to, except Unionists politicians who get away with murder, Either obey the Law or lose the public funding,

    The taxpayers have had enough of this affront to common decency going on for years. An excuse for racist, bigoted and nuisance behaviour by a small minority. They are not just defrauding and maiming others, They expect everyone else to pay for the illegal behaviour. To damage the economy and make everyone else worst off. Paying for policing and criminal damage. Some sport. These Clubs and Association are licences by the Gov, to obey the rules.

  211. Jack Collatin

    @ Fred: ‘Fish and visitors’. Brill.
    I love them dearly,but.
    Something like our English neighbours.
    They can overstay their welcome, by 310 years.

  212. Macart

    RE: Brexit

    The Scottish Government isn’t the government of an independent Scotland, not yet.

    People need to remember they are as bound by the legalities of the treaty of union and the Scotland Bill as you can possibly be and NOT by their choosing. They can’t simply declare ‘now way Jose’ and refuse to budge and it doesn’t matter if that’s exactly the right ethical/logical call either. The law and especially constitutional law in a democracy, doesn’t care about how right you are, but about whether you can or have enough popular legitimacy to speak for, or legislate for, your population. The SNP are, beyond anything else, democrats who passionately believe in the sovereignty and will of the Scottish electorate. They work to the will and popular mandate of that electorate.

    The last constitutional question they themselves asked, the majority told them to abide by the union. Until THAT result is overturned, they and the powers and will of the Scottish electorate are bound by the political union and the Scotland bill. Our parliamentary powers and choices limited in the face of UK ballots (see under democratic deficit). Again, NOT their choice. The majority of the Scottish electorate made that choice. Nor did the SG invite an EU ref, though in Scotland they made their case for remain far more eloquently and effectively than Mr Cameron as the national result bore out. Which kinda brings us to where we are now… a constitutional crisis, and international legal omnishambles and pending economic cliff.

    What they can do is use what laws and powers they have access to, which will ensure another ballot where the Scottish electorate get to have their say. In our current SNP bad climate though, this also means they are even forced to make the case for offering their own population a choice which others would almost certainly deny them. In point of fact they HAVE been actively trying to thwart the SNP government from offering our population that choice. That’s pretty much just how fucked up our political class and our media are in a nutshell.

    We’re dealing with national, constitutional and international law here, in a scenario which has never before occurred. To paraphrase the FM, ‘it is without precedent’. The FM’s old day job being a solicitor and all, I’m going with she knows what she’s talking about. Which effectively means, it isn’t just a single iceberg out there it’s an entire ice flow.

    However frustrating it is, you have a Scottish government bound by the choices their population made. Unlike UK gov though, they’ve never hidden the fact they disagreed with the choice that majority made and are moving heaven and earth, using every legal and democratic channel open to them to fight on two constitutional fronts with only a fraction of the powers of a central government. They’re tackling an ideologically intransigent and tribal political opposition, a corrupt and broken central government, an antagonistic media and a divided society labouring under decades of political abuse and mass media brainwashing.

    Could we possibly add another degree of difficulty at this point? ‘Cause, y’know, clearly the ‘day job’ isn’t nearly complex enough.

    Personally, I’d say that anything positive they have achieved in the face of all that over the past few years must surely constitute yer akchul miracle.

  213. joannie

    I know the history Robert, where you are buying into British state propaganda is when you say things like this…

    “The Old IRA were Irish United Kingdom subjects who were using violence against other Irish United Kingdom subjects.”

    You could characterize any country who fought for their independence the same way – Washington’s men were British subjects using violence against other British subjects, the Indian Mutiny was British subjects using violence against other British subjects, etc etc. And the logic of that train of thought is Imperialist, it means no country which is being held against its will by military force is allowed to take up arms in their own cause. You also seem to think that you’re somehow justified in saying The Boys of the Old Brigade is sectarian. You aren’t and it isn’t.

  214. Robert Peffers

    @Seumas says: 17 July, 2017 at 7:52 am:

    “Ps, for those still calling it the “Old Firm” I suggest you read up on the laws on liquidation of companies/businesses, the “Old Firm” no longer exists no matter how much the new Ibrox club brainwashes you.”

    So, Seumas, you did not read my, up-thread, true history of the birth of Celtic FC?

    The truth is that Hearts & Hibs were in existence before Celtic FC was instigated and Celtic FC was sponsored and modelled upon Hibernian FC that predates the start of Celtic.

    Not only was Celtic modelled on Hibs but the name of the Club was originally proposed to be Glasgow Hibernian to distinguish it from Edinburgh Hibernian, (Hibs originated in Edinburgh – Not Leith).

    In fact Celtic first took to the field in the green and white hooped strip of Hibs that was gifted to them by the established Hibs Football club. There are photos of a Hibs Scottish Cup winning team and they are wearing a green and white hooped strip.

    Incidentally the Hibs also had a hand in setting up several other Scottish football clubs, Dundee is one of them.

    So there you go – Celtic & Rangers never were the original Auld Firm for Hibs and Hearts were established rivals before them.

    Another historic fact is that it was due to Hearts FC that the Hibs club was accepted by the Scottish football authorities that had previously officially barred teams from RC clubs composed of Irish immigrants.

    Hearts, to their credit, ignored the authorities ban and played matches with Hibs and the football authorities caved in and stopped discrimination.

    Isn’t it surprising that stanch supporters of football clubs just do not know their own club’s true history?

  215. Ken500

    Catholics in NI were denied the vote right up until the 1960’s by rabid facist Protestants backed up by the British State. Disobeying every UK/International Law. After the illegal Partition of Ireland. A majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule/Indepenendence because of the chronic illegal mismanaged of the economy by the British State. Bringing poverty, death, destruction and misery to millions who had to migrate. NI unionists a Law unto themselves. Getting £Billions of UK taxpayers to keep them quiet. To support their illegal activity. Ruining their own economy and the world economy. Now getting voted out. The demographics mean Ireland could vote to reunite, supported by a majority.

    If people want to see where the Scottish Oil revenues went over the sea to NI. To under pin corruption on every scale. Financed to Norwegian levels. While Scotland was deprived. Kept secret under the Officials Secrets Act. UK Gov offences in Ireland for unionist votes in Westminster.

  216. colin alexander

    @Robert Peffers

    You said:

    “Rome appointed the King of England… to convert the native Irish to Christianity and the Norman Conquest of Ireland began. That was under Henry II of England.”

    Henry II reigned: 1133 – 1189

    Early Christian missionaries, such as St Patrick: 381 – 465.

    Over 700 years earlier.

    Thus, the Papal Bull ( a public declaration by the pope) wasn’t to convert the Irish to Christianity, but to enforce Roman Catholic Gregorian reforms on the semi-autonomous Celtic Christian church in Ireland, to bring them into line with the church in Rome.

    That pope who issued the papal bull for Henry II’s invasion has been the only pope from England.

  217. Breeks

    Macart say @ 9:08

    “…The last constitutional question they themselves asked, the majority told them to abide by the union. Until THAT result is overturned, they and the powers and will of the Scottish electorate are bound by the political union and the Scotland bill. Our parliamentary powers and choices limited in the face of UK ballots (see under democratic deficit). Again, NOT their choice. The majority of the Scottish electorate made that choice. Nor did the SG invite an EU ref, though in Scotland they made their case for remain far more eloquently and effectively than Mr Cameron as the national result bore out. Which kinda brings us to where we are now… a constitutional crisis, and international legal omnishambles and pending economic cliff…”

    So how do you resolve the Brexit referendum where a majority of Sovereign Scots elected to stay in Europe, with no elected majority or mandate for Westminster to force Brexit upon Scotland without the explicit subjugation of Scottish Sovereignty? By what authority do they “negotiate” our exit contrary to our expressed sovereign will to stay?

    The people are sovereign and chose to stay in Europe. Westminster and Holyrood are constitutionally bound to accept it, or articulate how they confound and get around the issue of Scottish sovereignty. The people are sovereign, not Holyrood, nor Westminster.

    Democracy in this specific instance of constitutional uncertainty is a placebo. It is the appropriate interpretation of constitutional law that will deliver Scotland from this Union.

    Brexit and this issue of Scottish Sovereignty is a prime example of an unenforceable contract being unenforceable, a contract which professes to do a thing that cannot properly be done, and an unenforceable contract is a void contract.

    Our 2014 YES referendum was fundamentally flawed, because only voting YES was consistent with an expression of sovereignty. Voting NO was not a competent constitutional option because we cannot vote away our sovereignty.

    Next referendum, let’s make ALL the options on the ballot constitutionally deliverable eh?

    Sovereignty is a double edge sword. It empowers us to make a decision which cannot be overruled, but it equally denies others the power and/or legitimacy to force their decisions on to us.

    We can bumble around inside our own Border til the cows come home, trying to convince ourselves we’re not sovereign when we are, because we still remain sovereign even if we don’t understand it and believe the delusion that we’re not.

    It is one thing to delude ourselves about sovereignty, but it is something altogether different and more sinister when a “foreign” Nation professes to have the casting vote over our sovereignty, and can bind us to their will when it is contrary to our own. That is what is happening to Scotland in the UK.

    If we weren’t the deluded idiots trying on every size of sovereignty except the size that actually fits, then Westminster would not be chancing its arm even to attempt to overrule our sovereign voice.

    It is a fallacy perpetuated by democrats to believe we Scots can elect to put our own sovereignty beyond our reach. It just isn’t true.

  218. Petra

    Apologies if this has been posted on here already. Apologies too if it’s going to make your blood boil, like mine. This is what we’re up against. I don’t have a gripe with anyone using Freedom of Information requests, far from it, but when we know that the data is often also being used to suppress, cherry-pick, information, twist facts, lie through omission and so on and isn’t compared fairly with statistics south of the border then yes my blood IS boiling.

    MORE THAN TWO THOUSAND FoI requests were made to the Scottish Government last year alone to the point that ”it has the potential to seriously impact on the work of government.” The individuals listed below should be hanging their heads in shame. The very individuals that we can’t seem to be able to do anything about from the BBC ignoring complaints to the paper tiger known as IPSO.

    ‘The National Union of Journalists has backed a joint letter by several journalists and NUJ chapels expressing serious concern at the way the Scottish Government has been treating Freedom of Interest requests from the media…………………………….’

    ‘The Scottish Government insisted that its records were maintained in accordance with all relevant records’ management legislation and practice. “Scotland has the most open and far-reaching freedom of information laws in the UK,” said a spokeswoman.
    “We take our responsibility for FoI seriously and in the large majority of cases we respond on time and in full. At the same time, the increasing volume and complexity of some requests can prove time-consuming, and has the potential to seriously impact on the work of government.”

    The spokeswoman pointed out that the number of FoI requests was steadily increasing. There were more than 2,000 requests last year, and more received in the first three months of 2017 than in the whole of 2007. She added: “We are working with the commissioner to ensure we continue to provide information in as timely a way as possible, while continuing to look for opportunities to proactively release information.”’


    It is signed by journalists including Severin Carrell (The Guardian), Tom Gordon (The Herald), James McEnaney (freelance), Daniel Sanderson (The Times), Andrew Picken (Sunday Post), Chris Diamond on behalf of the BBC NUJ chapel, Bernard Ponsonby on behalf of the STV NUJ chapel, David Clegg (Daily Record), Michael Blackley (Daily Mail Scotland), Paul Hutcheon (Sunday Herald), Kieran Andrews (The Courier), Simon Johnson (The Telegraph) and Ian Dunn (Scottish Catholic Observer).

    It has also been signed by Billy Briggs, Fiona Davidson, Rob Edwards, Peter Geoghegan, Rachel Hamada and Layla-Roxanne Hill of The Ferret and Angela Haggerty, Nathanael Williams, David Jamieson and Michael Gray of CommonSpace.

  219. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “I ask the proponents of the OB Act one question:- Give one instance where someone has been convicted under the Act whose offences could not have been prosecuted under pre-existing statutes.
    I submit that there are none.”

    So you’ll be a greater authority on that than the Procurator Fiscal, then, who said the exact opposite?

    “There is, though, some behaviour which
    may be prosecuted under section 1 which would not be capable, or would not be
    securely capable, of being prosecuted under any other provision.”

    I mean, I’d have thought the Procurator Fiscal would be fairly sharp on what offences people could and couldn’t be prosecuted for, but hey, what would THAT idiot know, right?

    “Look at how many prosecutions under the act fail to achieve convictions.”

    The idea that the OBFA suffers more failed convictions than any other law is total bollocks:

    69% of OBFA prosecutions are successful compared to just 46% of rape cases, so presumably you want the rape laws abolished because people could be prosecuted for assault instead, yeah?

    “The act was drafted and passed in haste, it has caused unnecessary confusion”

    A good argument for revising and improving it, not throwing it out.

  220. stu mac

    @Robert Peffers says:
    17 July, 2017 at 8:34 am
    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:39 am:

    I”m shocked that someone who normally seems so well informed historically should post something so full of errors. For example:

    The whole truth is that, in the first instance, the Holy Roman See. Which at that time was the only Christian religious body decided to interfere in the Irish Kingdom’s religious beliefs.

    A small point maybe but there was also the Greek Orthodox church (which had its offshoot the Russian Orthodox) and further east the Coptic and Syrian churches which though later diminished survived despite Islamic rule to this day. Of course in those days they were too far away geographically and politically to have any influence on Western Europe politics.

    Rome appointed the King of England as Lord of Ireland in an effort to convert the native Irish to Christianity and the Norman Conquest of Ireland began

    Ireland had been converted to Christianity during the 5th and 6th centuries (AD) – remember St Patrick (though he was from Dumbarton). In fact Christianity was introduced to Scotland and then England by Irish (and later Scots) missionaries. The Pope’s reasons for supporting the English king would have been political as the pope then was seen as a wordly prince as well as a religious leader. When you wanted to go to war you tried to get him onside.

    Henry declared himself the head of the Christian Church in England and then tried to force all of Britain into accepting the King of England as the head of the Christian Religion i.e. he created the Protestant sect of the Christian Church he, “Protested”, against the Church of Rome and made himself Head of the, “Protestant”, sect of Christian

    Henry didn’t create the protestant sect – though you’re right of course that he made himself head of the church in England. Protestantism had been around for a while in Europe by that time – in fact Henry had written a then famous tract against the Lutheran reformers and received the title “Defender of the Faith” (F D as we see on our coinage) which he decided to keep when he broke away from the Roman Church.

    His moves against Scotland were purely dynastic, he wanted to force a marriage which would eventually unite Scotland and England under one monarch but – this may have incidentally forced the Scottish (then still catholic) church under Royal control but it wasn’t his main interest, that was power.

  221. Jack Collatin

    Excellent, sir.
    How they would love trouble to break out up here.
    We do this by the book, our book mind.
    Davidson Dugdale and Rennie are IMV enemies of the Scottish people by not acknowledging that Scotland is a distinct nation, at the moment in a political partnership with three other nations on these isles, and can choose dissolution of this political construct at any time.
    All that is required is the political will of the people for Self Determination to happen.
    It’s comin’ yet for a’ that.

  222. Cai Larsen

    Joannie You also seem to think that you’re somehow justified in saying The Boys of the Old Brigade is sectarian. You aren’t and it isn’t.

    The problem here is fairly simple.

    The ideology that underpins songs such as The Boys of the Old Brigade is non sectarian & not particularly offensive to most people – it’s essentially the ideology of the French Revolution – which most of us adehere too, at least to some extent. The three biggest Irish political parties are ideologically descended from those who fought the British in the Irish War of Independence & their voters would have no problems with the wording of this song – & many other songs about the same period.

    The problem stems from Unionist ideology which is sectarian & has it’s roots in the 17 Century World view. It comes over as being ugly & intolerant nowadays – although there was a time when it was universally adhered – by Protestants at least.

    Unionist songs & chants are banned because they’re objectionable in the modern world – we generally take a dim view of gloating over mass starvation nowadays. Republican songs are banned – not because of their content – but because Unionist songs are banned & an illusion of balance & parity has to be established.

    It ain’t the content, it’s the context.

  223. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “You could characterize any country who fought for their independence the same way”

    Oh aye? What’s the body count in the fight for Scottish independence since 1707?

  224. Robert Graham

    O/T – during the next few weeks we are going to witness the State Broadcaster along with a compliant media go into overdrive to remove any reference to the Neutering and and the proposed removal of any relevant powers our Parliament presently has .
    They will pull out all the stops to make sure the public here has no knowledge or perception of what is about to happen , and every london controlled unionist party will be struck Dumb , totally silent , they will offer the Scottish Government no assistance .

  225. joannie

    @Rev Stu – Scotland has never had a war of independence, the closest is probably the Battle of Culloden although that was more about who sat on the British throne than Scottish independence.

  226. Cai Larsen

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    17 July, 2017 at 10:35 am
    “You could characterize any country who fought for their independence the same way”

    Oh aye? What’s the body count in the fight for Scottish independence since 1707?

    Scotland hasn’t fought for it’s independence since then in a literal sense, but it’s not typical of countries who became part of the British Empire. Hopefully you’ll never need to as there is – in theory – a democratic way of disengaging with what remains of the Empire.

  227. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 9:09 am:

    ” … I know the history Robert, where you are buying into British state propaganda is when you say things like this…
    “The Old IRA were Irish United Kingdom subjects who were using violence against other Irish United Kingdom subjects.”

    Which is the truth – are you seriously denying that?

    “You could characterize any country who fought for their independence the same way – Washington’s men were British subjects using violence against other British subjects”

    Utter rubbish – The populations in the Americas were a very international mix. Mainly European immigrants but there were African Slaves, (some of them were freed former Slaves), and the American Railways and other infrastructure even utilised former Chinese Coolies.

    “Indian Mutiny was British subjects using violence against other British subjects, etc etc.”

    More rubbish, What the, “British Empire”, called India was made up of former independent nations that Britain invaded and subjugated. Almost the first thing that happened after independence was they split up as India & Pakistan.

    The difference was that in, the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. et al, the native populations were subjected to Genocide and replaced by, (often forced), European immigrants. These were obviously actually UK subjects imported to a former country and the aboriginal, (small a), were almost wiped out by those forcing the immigrants info the country.

    These countries were populated by actual UK Governors General and a Civil Service controlled by Westminster who presided over the genocide of the native populations and controlled the often forced European immigrants.

    In those countries the people fighting the British Empire were former forced immigrants and not the former aboriginal natives of those countries.

    In India the natives, aboriginal, populations were the ones who won their independence by passive means. In the USA, Canadian, Australian & New Zealander white settlers are the present populations and the aboriginal populations had no say in the gaining of these countries independence.

    In Ireland the white immigrants were implanted into the white native Irish populations and the differences were in their religious faiths. i.e. sectarianism, not their racial origins.

    Ulster was run until recently by implanted, (the Irish Plantations), Protestants that began in the Norman Conquest of Ireland and was still being maintained until recently. There were no RCs employed at Harland & Wolfe’s Shipbuilders for example.

    Note that the violence of the IRA failed to gain Northern Ireland and re-unify the country of Ireland.

    Only since the IRA gave up violence and became democratic, have we seen a dramatic rise in people voting for Irish unification and the decline in Northern Irish Democratic Unionist Party (DUP). The DUP are no longer a majority in Northern Ireland. Particularly in the Irish Border constituencies.

    ” … You also seem to think that you’re somehow justified in saying The Boys of the Old Brigade is sectarian. You aren’t and it isn’t.”

    I am and it does, furthermore, you have not, as yet, offered any evidence whatsoever to support your own biased personal opinions.

    The song most certainly glorifies the violent actions of the IRA who had then taken to the gun and the bomb in their fight for an Irish return to independence. They were destined to fail and they did. BTW: Please note that I am unbiased and condemn equally the UK violence against the IRA and innocent members of the Irish public.

    You, on the other hand, seek to justify the IRA violence while condoning the UK, (you call them British but Westminster only governs four of the eight nations of the Britain. The UK is British but it is not all of Britain. There are another four non-UK legislatures in Britain.

    Only now that the IRA have given up on the violence and rely only upon democratic means have they gained any real headway in Northern Ireland. The DUP are now in a minority and this is so particularly in the border constituencies where the IRA violence was most prevalent.

    There can be no condoning the glorification of violence and in the main the violence has failed to gain the fighters their independence. In fact, in many cases, the leaders of the fight for national independence from the UK have become dictators who are even worse than the original UK invaders of their countries..

    Note, though, the difference between a native, aboriginal, population, (such as in India), and a mainly forced immigrant population such as in the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

  228. Petra

    The history of Ireland is absolutely heartbreaking. Another country / people however on the long list of victims of it’s near neighbour, England. Their history rewritten by their near neighbour (and others) such as the great Potato Famine Farce.

    ‘The monetarist policy of the British Government of the 1840’s known as “Laissez Faire” demanded no political interference with “the free market”.

    In Ireland Before and After the Famine Cormac O’Grada documents that in 1845, a famine year in Ireland, 3,251,907 quarters (8 bushels = 1 quarter)) of corn were exported from Ireland to Britain. That same year 257,257 sheep were exported to Britain. In 1846, another famine year, 480,827 swine and 186,483 oxen were exported to Britain.

    Cecil Woodham-Smith, considered the preeminent authority on the Irish Famine, wrote in The Great Hunger; Ireland 1845-1849 that, “…no issue has provoked so much anger or so embittered relations between the two countries (England and Ireland) as the indisputable fact that huge quantities of food were exported from Ireland to England throughout the period when the people of Ireland were dying of starvation.”

    “Although the potato crop failed, the country was still producing and exporting more than enough grain crops to feed the population. But that was a ‘money crop’ and not a ‘food crop’ and could not be interfered with.”

    According to John Mitchel, quoted by Woodham-Smith, “Ireland was actually producing sufficient food, wool and flax, to feed and clothe not nine but eighteen millions of people,” yet a ship sailing into an Irish port during the famine years with a cargo of grain was “sure to meet six ships sailing out with a similar cargo.”

    One of the most remarkable facts about the famine period is that there was an average monthly export of food from Ireland worth 100,000 Pound Sterling. Almost throughout the five-year famine, Ireland remained a net exporter of food………………’

    ‘In fact, the most glaring cause of the famine was not a plant disease, but England’s long-running political hegemony over Ireland. The English conquered Ireland, several times, and took ownership of vast agricultural territory. Large chunks of land were given to Englishmen….’

    ….’The Irish suffered from many famines under English rule. Like a boxer with both arms tied behind his back, the Irish could only stand and absorb blow after blow. It took the “many circumstances” of English policy to create the knockout punch and ultimate answer to the Irish question….’

    ….’Ireland was swept away by the economic forces that emanated from one of the most powerful and aggressive states the world had ever known. It suffered not from a fungus (which English scientists insisted was just excessive dampness) but from conquest, theft, bondage, protectionism, government welfare, public works, and inflation….’

  229. Cai Larsen

    Robert Peffers – The difference was that in, the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. et al, the native populations were subjected to Genocide and replaced by, (often forced), European immigrants

    It’s difficult not to smile.

  230. joannie

    “Which is the truth – are you seriously denying that?”

    Yes, I’m seriously denying that anyone ever had the right to declare the Irish people to be UK subjects, and pointing out that the logic of your argument would deny any country that’s invaded the right to defend themselves.

    “Utter rubbish – The populations in the Americas were a very international mix. ”

    Irrelevant. I’m not talking about the population of the Americas, I’m talking about the population of George Washington’s patriots, all of whom were classed as British subjects, as were the loyalists and redcoats they fought against.

    “More rubbish, What the, “British Empire”, called India was made up of former independent nations that Britain invaded and subjugated. Almost the first thing that happened after independence was they split up as India & Pakistan.”

    Also irrelevant. While India was in the British Empire all of those subjugated people were classed as British subjects including the ones who took part in the Indian Mutiny.

    “I am and it does”

    You aren’t and it isn’t. There is nothing sectarian in the lyrics of that song or in the ideology, (Irish Republicanism), that it stems from. It was the Unionist ideology which was based on religious supremacism, Irish Republicanism was invented by the Protestant Theobald Wolfe Tone and specifically called for equality between Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter.

  231. Cai Larsen

    It’s interesting but understandable that the various 20thC uprisings in Ireland are conflated in some of these arguments.

    The 1916 Uprising, the Border Campaign in the 50s & the campaigns of PIRA, OIRA & INLA in the 70s, 80s & 90s are open to the criticism that there was no democratic mandate.

    That doesn’t apply to theIrish War of Independence. The 1918 Dail had an overwhelming democratic mandate & permitted the IRA to take the actions it did during the Civil War period.

  232. Meg merrilees


    I think you are forgetting about the Battle of Bannockburn. 1314

    This was technically the first big battle of the period from 1296 – 1328 which saw several bbattles to and fro, between Scotland and England.

    The Battle of Stirling Bridge, when Sir William Wallace led the Scots to victory against the occupying English forces was certainly about retaining Independence and the subsequent fight at Bannockburn asserted King Robert the Bruce as the rightful ruler of the Kingdom of Scotland, occupied, at that time, by English forces.

    Net result of said battle was that the English occupation of Stirling Castle ceased immediately and they withdrew from the country forthwith.

    Jacobites come much later and after a whole lot more blood has been spilled defending our right to freedom.

  233. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 10:42 am:

    “@Rev Stu – Scotland has never had a war of independence, the closest is probably the Battle of Culloden although that was more about who sat on the British throne than Scottish independence.


  234. Robert J. Sutherland

    Robert Peffers @ 10:51:

    The populations in the Americas were a very international mix. Mainly European immigrants but there were African Slaves, (some of them were freed former Slaves), and the American Railways and other infrastructure even utilised former Chinese Coolies

    Errm, not around 1776 there weren’t. The first rudimentary railroads weren’t built until the 1820’s.

    The American colonies inevitably attracted a variety of odd-bods in their early years, especially the ports, but they were largely British in composition back at the time of the Revolutionary War. The only significant exceptions I can think of were the Dutch in New York (Nieuw Amsterdam) and the various small Swiss-German Anabaptist sects in Pennsylvania (Amish, Mennonites, etc.).

  235. joannie

    I guess both Robert Peffers and Meg Merriless missed the part of Rev Stu’s post where he asked me for the body count of Scottish independence since 1707. SINCE 1707.

    Read the post I’m replying to before making stupid noises like Sheesh at my reply.

  236. Graf Midgehunter

    Seumas + Robert Peffers

    “Ps, for those still calling it the “Old Firm” I suggest you read up on the laws on liquidation of companies/businesses, the “Old Firm” no longer exists no matter how much the new Ibrox club brainwashes you.”

    So, Seumas, you did not read my, up-thread, true history of the birth of Celtic FC?

    The truth is that Hearts & Hibs were in existence before Celtic FC was instigated and Celtic FC was sponsored and modelled upon Hibernian FC that predates the start of Celtic.”

    “So there you go – Celtic & Rangers never were the original Auld Firm for Hibs and Hearts were established rivals before them.”

    “Isn’t it surprising that stanch supporters of football clubs just do not know their own club’s true history?”

    It’s certainly very interesting to understand the history and origins of Scottish football but I don’t think you’ll find many “Rangers” or Celtic fans, sportswriters, TV commentators etc who give a monkeys about the origins of the “Old Firm”.

    The term has morphed over time to mean the rivalry between “Rangers” and Celtic and (almost) nobody gives a flying f*** nowadays as to what the history was.

    Pity, because history can be very useful sometimes. See the Constitutional question “Sovereingnty”.

  237. auld highlander

    I have no time at all for all the stupid song singing that goes along with football, just stop play until the imbeciles shut up, the only match I ever attended was over forty years ago and it was the most boring hour and a half of my life.

    All this religion stuff is out of hand and who the hell knows what the real deal is anyway, the story has been rewritten again and again to suit whoever, maybe the zombies at the old firm matches should be down on their prayer mats and chanting something from the another good book or pouring their hearts out at the Wailing Wall.

    One thing for sure, we will find out some day soon.

  238. Capella

    Wiki map of the American colonies 1750. A lot of blue (France) at that time and orange (Spain) but not much pink (Britain).

    Only trying to help!

  239. Lochside

    Petra….it does make me worry when I see Angela Haggerty and David Gray joining up with the rest of the jackals to give the SG a kicking.

  240. Graf Midgehunter

    In case anyone has missed it, today is:

    Nicola Sturgeons birthday 🙂

    Happy birthday Nicola.

  241. Robert Peffers

    @Meg merrilees says: 17 July, 2017 at 11:29 am:
    I think you are forgetting about the Battle of Bannockburn. 1314
    This was technically the first big battle of the period from 1296 – 1328 which saw several bbattles to and fro, between Scotland and England.”

    Just in the past week or so I posted a very long list of battles in just the first Scottish wars of independence. It was far from being a complete list.

    I’d warrant most Scots had never heard of even a tiny fraction of those battles I listed. I had the notion to keep a copy of the post as I jaloused it would be required again at some distant point on Wings. I was far too optimistic.

    Here’s a ready made on-line, far from complete, list:-

    I was aware many Scots were a bit ignorant of their own history and quite frankly it is almost impossible to cover even single instances or single periods in Wings comments. Everything on such comments must of necessity be far too brief and lack full explanations.

    I did not think, though, that the historic ignorance was quite so encompassing as present Wings commenters are exhibiting.

    There were literally many hundreds of recorded battles of the several wars of Scottish independence and I’d venture to claim that many went unrecorded or have been lost to history.

  242. Hamish100

    Do you think our DR pretendy trainee lawyer of Cfc persuasion knows Kelly MSP to discuss what they didn’t know.

    Based in n the comments they don’t know a lot

    If the act is revoked will Kelly and his ranger FC allies take responsibility for all future sectarian attacks

  243. Jockanese Wind Talker

    I agree with you @GC says at 7:34 am “The act was drafted and passed in haste”.

    But have to disagree with you when you say that “Its time it was repealed”.

    To Repeal the OFBA basically is a statement that Scotland Accepts Offensive Behaviour at Football.

    Amend the OBFA rather than repeal.

    SGs Opposition will always point and shout SNP BAAD but never offer an alternative.

    That’s why Kelly hasn’t proposed an amendment.

    That and the fact ‘Divide & Conquer’ is the preferred tool of the Uber Yoon Establishment.

  244. gus1940

    Re Robert J Sutherland @13.47

    Although Chamberlain was still PM at the time it has always been accepted that the Norway Campaign was at the instigation of Churchill who was First Lord of The Admiralty at the time.

    The German invasion commenced on May 10th. the same day as WSC took over as PM.

    Given that 300k plus (the number evacuated) together with the rearguard who were eventually captured or killed is not a paltry force is the why I call into question the reason for the evacuation at Dunkirk and suggestion that if it was possible to evacuate over 300k why would it not have been possible to set up a defensive perimeter supplied using the same resources used for evacuation and hold out indefinitely or until such time as the French army got their act together.

    It is generally accepted that the success of the May 1940 Blitzkrieg was attributable to the use of tanks.

    What must be remembered is the fact that the use of tanks in built up areas such as Dunkirk has historically been proved not to be a good idea.

  245. Orri

    The fact that it was thought necessary to introduce laws about the use of mobile phones while driving highlights the fact that sometimes existing laws aren’t enough.

    The majority of driving offences boil down to not being so big a dick that you are a danger not only to yourself but to others around you.

    The OFBA is necessary precisely because of the whole repetitive pointless yamering on about how the words of the Green Brigade couldn’t possibly be offensive. Much the same way that playing the German national anthem passing a synagogue isn’t offensive.

    Despite the fact that the voluntary program ‘Paul’ undertook was meant to have shown him how it might be.

    The problem here is that Celtic supporters were getting away with shit the knuckledraggers were too thick to avoid. And even when Rangers supporters adopted songs like Penny Arcade accusations flew that there must be some deep hidden sectarian meaning. At which point an independent observer might ask about the double standard being employed. Let’s not go into the whole ‘Hokey Cokey’ farce.

    The point about the OBFA is that it makes it easier to convict behaviour which the perpetrators would otherwise feign innocence over.

  246. Robert Peffers

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 17 July, 2017 at 11:32 am:

    “Errm, not around 1776 there weren’t. The first rudimentary railroads weren’t built until the 1820’s.”

    Which is why I worded it, “and other infrastructure projects”.

    BTW: It was far from primarily British and it was touch and go between the French and British. Much of the USA is also of German and Dutch descent. New York, for example, was bought from the Dutch by Westminster. N.Y. had however a rather changing ownership. Strictly from memory I have:-

    In around 10,000 BC, the first Native Americans arrived. By around 1100 AD, the main native cultures were the Iroquoian and Algonquian native American nations.

    The European discovery of New York began with the French in 1524 and the first land claim came in 1609 by the Dutch as part of, “New Netherland”, a colony important in the fur trade.

    It eventually became an agricultural resource due to, “The patroon system”, (a landholder with manorial rights to large tracts of land ).

    Then, in 1626, the Dutch bought Manhattan island from the Native Americans. In 1664, England, not Britain, renamed the colony, “New York”, named after the Duke of York (later who became James II & VII.)

    New York City gained prominence in the 18th century as a major trading port in the Thirteen American Colonies.

    Apologies if I missed anything out as I’m working only from memory.

  247. Robert J. Sutherland

    Capella @ 11:53,

    We’re ploughing a lonely furrow on here. The French (and other) colonies though weren’t rebelling against the British. (We had had a war with them a few years earlier, but that’s yet another story.)

    We oughtn’t to forget the Native Americans either. But (as with the African slaves) no-one canvassed their opinion about dumping tea into Boston harbour, even though the perpetrators were apparently dressed as such.

    But we digress…

  248. Dorothy Devine

    The arrogance of those journalists beggars belief.

    A poxy bunch of lying conniving individuals desperate to cause trouble in Scotland – I do hope it visits them first.

  249. Ken500

    ‘Reporters’ who can’t sell a copy. An industry consumed with debt. Destroying their own industry. Trying to trough on public money. Telling a load of lies.

  250. Jack Murphy

    OT. VIDEO. Better Together talks about Twitter Squads and Facebook tactics in the day or two before Scotland’s 2014 Independence Referendum.

    “Population of Scotland 6 million.”

    ON-LINE TACTICS described in detail.

    Neil Oliver is described as a “historian”,“People love him”,
    was held in reserve until 9pm the evening before the Vote!


  251. Graf Midgehunter

    Gerry Parker

    Thanks for the info – this means I boobed. 🙁

    “Sigh” (Eats chalk and sawdust)

  252. Capella

    @ RJS – by chance I watched a rather gothic 1946 film last night starring Vincent Price and Gene Tierney. Called Dragonwyck, it has some fascinating insights into the war between the wealthy decadent Dutch Potroons around New York and the tenant farmers who are sick of paying rent and handing over tithes.

    Their fate is contrasted with the honest labour of the god-fearing Western homesteader. No doubt beneficiaries of Abraham Lincoln’s Homestead Act.
    An instructive 1 hr and 42 mins.

  253. Edward

    Sorry to be a bit O/T, but thought you might find interesting.

    I have been saying for some time that the obvious bit about ‘Brexit’ will be the increase in our weekly shopping, once the UK is actually out of the EU.

    For those unaware, the bulk of fresh fruits and veg come from the EU (regardless of which supermarket you shop in).
    If we have the so called ‘hard brexit’ or even ‘soft brexit’, WTO rules will apply in which everything is subject to full rates of duty as well as the cost of customs clearance.

    Seems a group of academics from three universities have caught up and published a 86 page review.

    The Independent have an article on the academics review, which states “Currently, the EU props up a huge chunk of Britain’s food supply – providing 31% of its food – which the authors suggest cannot be walked away from without provisions in place”

    “It cites recent research by the British Retail Consortium that the absence of a trade deal could push the price of imported food up by 22%” (Actually I thought it would be between 20 to 30%)

    ‘Brexit: ‘Real risk’ UK could run out of food after EU exit, government warned’ is online at :

  254. gerry parker

    Midgie, no worries.
    ( polishes up Alert Readers badge)


  255. Edward

    Some may have seen in recent newspaper reviews of the Daily Mail having a go at the French for ‘stealing banking jobs’
    It was the usual DM demonising the French, which is actually a distraction from the reality. The DM really is known for its reality!

    The real story is one that was reported by Bloomberg online and largely ignored by the MSM (preferring the DM’s anti French diatribe).

    The gist of Bloomberg’s report is that the City of London is set to loose 30,000 jobs in banking and finance as banks and financial institutes move, mainly to Frankfurt.

    The UK will also see the removal of 1.8 trillion euros of assets out of the U.K. on Brexit (note that the current UK national debt is running at £ 1.7 Trillion).
    Bloomberg further state that “The implications for the U.K. are substantial: finance and related professional services bring in some £190 billion ($245 billion) a year, representing 12 percent of the British economy”

    The implications for Scotland cannot be downplayed or dismissed as Scotland itself has a substantial banking and finance sector.

  256. heedtracker

    A poxy bunch of lying conniving individuals desperate to cause trouble in Scotland – I do hope it visits them first.

    Sterling’s lost a lot of value, from tory BBC, not a peep. Food staples have leapt in cost, from tory BBC, mute!

    Is UK hackdom propaganda worse now than under the Thatcher era? Yep. Much worse.

    High Speed 2 rail’s got a massive boost today though. For Scotland, nothing.

    Why oh why do Scots think they’re UKOK bettertogether, is what I keep wondering.

    Every modern nation has HS rail.

    So why not teamGEnglandB?

  257. Tartanarse

    We all sing Flower of Scotland at international football matches. That song refers to defeating another country in battle. This battle wasn’t waged with pea shooters.

    It’s a song glorifying a war.

    I don’t think anyone should sing songs glorifying war in any country.

  258. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Aye @heedtracker says 1:15 pm

    From the ToryGraph (a few years ago):

    “Revealed: HS2 ‘abysmal value for money’ at 10 times the cost of high-speed rail in Europe.”

    “The UK’s cost per km is the highest among any of the major high speed rail countries – with HS1 costing £51.3m per km and HS2 estimated to cost £78.5m per km. This is double that of many countries, including Turkey, Japan, China, Germany and South Korea.”

    Still it is only taxpayers money after all and the Old Boys Club will ensure they and their mates trouser some of this cash.

    UKOK all the way.

  259. Macart


    Yeah, read that piece in the Independent earlier. Worth folks reading for sure.

  260. yesindyref2

    My wife is from County Cork, and even though I “know” quite a lot of Irish history, I wouldn’t dare relate it except in some general terms like dates, 1916, 1922, 1958, that sort of thing.

    What I find is that for anyone brought up in the “UK”, the version of events and backgrounds – and history before it – is very different.

    If you imagine a half-hour modern battle, with masses of cameras in place, microphones, even individual mikes for the participants, full trace of communications during the battle. Then both sides create their own story arbout what actually happened, using all sources of information, including those fom the other side.

    What you would get is two absolutely different stories. Bioth subjective.

    Personally I would be far more ready to believe a version of Irish history from an Irish person, rather than a UK one.

  261. Jockanese Wind Talker

    In the same vein as the Daily Records “Vow Delivered Gish @Edward says at 1:14 pm

    “…Daily Mail having a go at the French for ‘stealing banking jobs’”

    The real story is one that was reported by Bloomberg online and largely ignored by the MSM (preferring the DM’s anti French diatribe).

    If they the UKOK MSM and BBC reported the truth that “The implications for the U.K. are substantial: finance and related professional services bring in some £190 billion ($245 billion) a year, representing 12 percent of the British economy”

    Folk might question as to why the self same UKOK MSM and BBC pushed their Pro Brexit Propaganda (just look at UKIP appearances on QT etc. vs MPs) so hard.

    If the UKOK MSM and BBC report the truth now it would highlight their complicity in the disaster awaiting to befall the UK.

    It is full steam ahead, out of the EU before the end of the year and all the fault of foreigners like those ‘beastly French job thieves’ being jolly unfair to Bwitain don you know.

    The News will be reported as dictated by The Establishment and its Westminster Government.

    All in the spirit of ‘WWII National Emergency reportage’, don’t report anything which would damage the morale of the country (think the Lancastrian) in a ‘don’t panic the populous’ lest they riot.

  262. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Lancastrian = Lancastria

    Damned auto correct.

  263. joannie

    @yesindyref2 – its true these things can be subjective, but I would be especially wary of accepting lectures on Irish history from someone who doesn’t realise that Ireland was a Christian country long before the Normans came along.

  264. yesindyref2

    I think, and I could be wrong, that it’s because the BEF had already lost much of its heavy equipment in its headlong retreat from the Panzers.

  265. Aikenheed

    Gus 12.05
    The Germans also had overwhelming air power. If we had tried to “garrison”Dunkirk we would have been trapped in an enclave under sustained air and artillery bombardment, as would any ships attempting to resupply. Apart from deficiencies in radios, anti tank and AA guns etc we had no tactical offensive air power and very little air defence.
    The French had been totally outmaneuvered and were disabled by out of date communications and chain of command.
    It is easy to consider alternatives with hindsight and all the information to hand, however the overwhelming factor had been the speed of events

  266. mike d

    Petra 11am. Absolutely,the Irish famine was enforced genocide and ethnic cleansing by the British government of the day. An event so infamous in history,for which the b******s should never be forgiven.

  267. Ken500

    HS2 is an absolute waste of public money. £100Billion to increase travel time thoughout the UK. A proportion of the money spent could have been in the present system upgrading rail times. It is a complete waste of money with absolute,y no business case. Except to line the Tories and their cronies pockets with vast unaffordable waste of £Billions of public money. A total corrupt enterprise with no business case. Not enough customers. Journey times in Scottish take twice as long because of years of lack of investment while £Billions went down south. Including paying debts on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland. £20Billion a year go south with mismanaged policies. The Oil/Gas sector in Scotland taxed at 40% by the Tories since Jan 2016. Fracked US Gas is being imported.

    Along with Hinkley Point. A total waste of public money. Two tidal barrages £20Billion would produce more energy.

    Public essential Services, NHS/Education etc are being illegally cut down by the Tories. To fund these white elephants. Heathrow and squint Trident.

  268. yesindyref2

    But even before I met my wife I was very wary about the “official” version of Irish history we get in the UK. You can get some history in music (folk songs), fiction books even, from study of how language moves (Gaelic spelt the English way), and even from Celtic mythology, which can be based on events that actually happened. Finding the odd text of an old-fashioned storyteller was a boon – handed down through the generations. This all kind of alerted me to the fact that the UK version is incredibly one-sided, and even factually wrong.

    So I read a bit more, from other sources!

  269. colin alexander

    As most posts are O/t. So:

    Why has the Scottish Govt never held a vote on: Should Scotland remain part of the EU?

    Either in the SP or as a Scottish referendum.

    An MSP forwarded a motion in support of the Single Market. That’s not the same.

    Both the EU and UK espouse democracy and self determination. That would be self determination by Scotland.

    Either in or out. Scotland’s Govt, UK Govt and EU – if respectful of democratic decisions – would be under pressure to accept the will of the people directly or as expressed by their parliamentary representatives.

    Yet it never happened, as far as I know.

    I am not asking how WM would react. I’m asking: why did Scotland’s Govt never seek that democratic mandate on that single very important issue?

  270. Dan Huil

    It’s never been the “Irish Problem” it’s always been the “British Problem”. Scotland regaining its independence will see the end of the “British Problem”. To be replaced by the “English Problem”?

  271. yesindyref2

    I hated history at school, so boring and badly presented. But the book that started me off after school (at Uni) was the one others recommended – John Prebble’s Lion in the North. No idea how many times I read that, but it is quite tatty! I see it’s available used on both Abebooks and Amazon.

  272. Capella

    The reason the Westminster government didn’t care about the Irish famine is that many of them were large estate owners in Ireland. Lord Palmerston was Prime Minister and also owned a huge estate in County Sligo. Wikipedia has a lot to say about Palmerston but not about his role in the famine.

    For that you need to read Thomas Keneally’s “Three Famines” about the Irish, Bengal and Ethiopian famines. N Y Times review:

  273. shug

    The bbc’s normalisation of Orangism is the most astonishing example of politicians controlling g the bbc
    A year ago the idea of the bbc treating an orange parade as a cultural expression rather than unrestricted bigotry is unimaginable but given the government deal with the dup these self.proclamed armed

  274. shug

    Killers of UK citizens and military is astonishing
    I hope colonel ruth remembers this the next time she stands with a poppy at a cenotaph

  275. Capella

    Howard Zinn’s People’s History of the United States has a good chapter on the rebellion against wealthy Dutch estate owners such as the Rensselaers extracting rent and produce from farmers. Our farmers could learn something from them!

    When a deputy arrived in the farming area with writs demanding the rent, farmers suddenly appeared, assembled by the blowing of tin horns. They seized his writs and burned them.
    That December, a sheriff and a mounted posse of five hundred rode into the farm country, but found themselves in the midst of shrieking tin horns, eighteen hundred farmers blocking their path, six hundred more blocking their rear, all mounted, armed with pitchforks and clubs. The sheriff and his posse turned back, the rear guard parting to let them through.
    This was the start of the Anti-Renter movement in the Hudson Valley, described by Henry Christman in Tin Horns and Calico. It was a protest against the patroonship system, which went hack to the 1600s when the Dutch ruled New York, a system where (as Christman describes it) “a few families, intricately intermarried, controlled the destinies of three hundred thousand people and ruled in almost kingly splendor near two million acres of land.”

  276. Proud Cybernat

    I just spent an hour or so looking at hundreds of Order marching photos – couldn’t see anyone marching other than WASPs.

    Question: Does the Orange Order allow anyone from other ethnic backgrounds to join the order? If not, why not? Anyone know?

  277. Robert J. Sutherland

    Dan Huil @ 14:23,

    Poor misunderstood things, they can’t be blamed really. I mean, dressing up as concentration camp guards and their victims is the kind of thing we all do at any old party, isn’t it?

    Defending “Protestant” values like that is surely hard work. But then “arbeit macht frei”, nicht war?

    Capella @ 14:54,

    I never knew any of that. Amazing what you can discover on WoS (especially on a quiet day)…

  278. Dr Jim

    History is written and rewritten by those who consider themselves the winners, and they’ll undertake to do that as many times as is necessary to obliterate anyone else,s version of events true or false and as long as it takes to smother any evidence to the contrary

    Always amusing when Inglind condemns other countries doing what they learned from them

  279. yesindyref2

    @Dr Jim
    What’s interesting about that book Lion in the North (and Clearances) is that John Prebble is English. And thinking about it, history in Scotland was often suppressed and falsified, probably papers burned and diaries. Even the language and dress suprressed, so probably story-telling, songs and poetry.

    But in England of course the original diaries, records, memoirs, even written orders and family tradition would still exist as they weren’t under the cosh. So researching actual history would be easier, well, possible in England, and perhaps that’s why it took an Englishman to correct much of the previous propaganda.

  280. Breeks

    Jack Murphy says:
    17 July, 2017 at 12:52 pm
    “OT. VIDEO. Better Together talks about Twitter Squads and Facebook tactics in the day or two before Scotland’s 2014 Independence Referendum.

    “Population of Scotland 6 million.”

    ON-LINE TACTICS described in detail.

    Neil Oliver is described as a “historian”,“People love him”,
    was held in reserve until 9pm the evening before the Vote!……”

    Rare thing for me Jack, but that made the hairs on the back of my neck bristle. And to hear the words spoken in a Scottish accent made me spitting angry. Can you imagine being so smug about selling out your own country and its population?

    And here was me giving Neil Oliver the benefit of the doubt as a nice but dim puppet of the establishment who’s opinion was bought and paid for by his BBC wages.

    Strange as it might sound however, there’s a certain irony to the whole talk, because Better Together was raising, or more correctly lowering the benchmark on virtually everything it touched. Every relaunch was a bigger shambles than the last, every initiative a farce, Probably right down to their self important arrogance in making such a video about it.

    Maybe we need a twist on the old sovereignty chestnut. If you vote No saying you don’t want Scotland to be sovereign, then by electing to abdicate your Scottish sovereignty, perhaps we should interpret that as you abdicating your Scottish citizenship too. You cannot remove sovereignty from the Scot, but If you want to be British, then let British be all that you are and the only Nationality you can claim; a nationality for a Nation that doesn’t exist.

    We Independentists seem to be so terribly, terribly, sporting, “nice”, and forgiving. Just to be clear, I’m not advocating violence, or we’ll be seeing acrimonious 50′ bonfires in Scotland for decades to come, but by heavens, we should be utterly ruthless, relentless and unforgiving in our resolve to deliver Scotland from this faithless affliction of a Union.

  281. yesindyref2

    @Breeks “Neil Oliver is described as a “historian”,“People love him””

    Even before 2012 I wasn’t fond of Oliver. He had no passion talking about the History of Scotland, compared to Huw Edwards for instance who was practically raging at times about the History of Wales. Oliver also biased history to the English side, very blatantly at times – and this even before the Indy Ref. Basically speaking he’s a dick.

  282. John Young

    Excellent Letter in this weeks “Scottish Farmer”


    Considerable coverage has been given in the farming and national press concerning the delay in paying farmers their rural payment money.

    If you are in a situation where you have not received any money at all, you have to consult your local area office as quickly as possible.

    In my own situation, I received 80% on November 30, 2016; 10% on March 22, 2017; and a final 10% on June 22 22, 2017. I was also paid 80% of my LFASS on May 18, 2017.

    The delay is now looking like entering a third year and this is unacceptable. One fact hardly mentioned by persistent critics, is that in England and Wales, Defra introduced a similar system in 2007 which resulted in chaos in paying out aid.

    The English and Welsh Defra organisation has been fined £642m by Europe – that is a lot of money.

    To date, the Scottish Government has not been fined. However, the Scottish situation has given the usual critics the chance to put the boot in.

    Your columnist, Jim Walker, screams that Nicola Sturgeon is ‘totally irresponsible’ and ‘it is pathetic and unforgiveable’ that the deadline of June 30 will not be met for ‘desperate customers’.

    I wonder how much of Mr Walker’s Basic Payment of £150,609.51 (that he got in 2016) he is waiting for as he struggles to make end’s meet. Mr Walker’s nickname is ‘Walker the Talker’ but to use the columns of The Scottish Farmer to fire insulting words at politicians who, for the last 10 years have served Scottish agriculture well, is completely out of order.

    R—-t M——e

  283. Lenny Hartley

    Would people stop going on about the Irish Famine, there was no such thing. There was a failure of the potato crop. During the “great Hunger” Hundreds of tonnes of oats were shipped from Ireland to India to feed British Army Horses , only 25% of the land was producing potatoes the other 75% of the arable land was producing “cash crops” such as barley, wheat and oats, the vastbbulk of this was exported, over three million animals were exported during the so called famine. It was Genocide pure and simple.

  284. yesindyref2

    Oh look at this on wiki for sheer propoganda:

    “The Highland Potato Famine (Scottish Gaelic: Gaiseadh a’ bhuntàta) was a period of 19th century Highland and Scottish history (1846 to roughly 1856) over which the agricultural communities of the Hebrides and the western Gàidhealtachd (Scottish Highlands) saw their potato crop (upon which they had become over-reliant) repeatedly devastated by potato blight. It was part of the wider food crisis facing Northern Europe caused by potato blight during the mid-1840s, whose most famous manifestation is the Great Irish Famine, but compared to its Irish counterpart it was much less extensive (the population at risk was never more than 200,000) and took many fewer lives (prompt and major charitable efforts by the rest of the United Kingdom ensured that there was relatively little starvation). The terms on which charitable relief was given, however, led to destitution and malnutrition amongst its recipients. A government enquiry could suggest no short-term solution other than reduction of the population of the area at risk by emigration to Canada or Australia.” (my bold)

    Yeah, others would call it the Clearances, which didn’t stop until 1906 or some such date. Well, legally anyway, in some ways they continued.

    “charitable efforts” my smelly backside.

  285. Meg merrilees


    Your remark at 10.42 didn’t read to me as a reply to a previous post, but as a sweeping statement hence my reply to you.

    For the record, I didn’t use the word ‘sheesh’ either!

    Post 1707, yes, Culloden was the last great battle and since the Treaty of Union was in existence, then it cannot really be described as a war of independence.

  286. stu mac


    Those days are past now,
    And in the past
    they must remain,

  287. yesindyref2

    On that subject of Clearances, many years ago when petrol was 6s 6d per gallon with sixpence change from a pound for 3 gallons, if you drove around the north of Scotland or even an island like taking the ferry to Skye from Kyle to Kyleakin or even the old road to Mallaig, keeping the old Morrie Minor alive by knowing where every scrappie was and having a couple of sets of quadruple Green Shield spanners (ring and open), you’d see a lot of old derelict cottages around just about anywhere you went.

    Don’t see so many these days, but you do see some peculiar shaped houses around. The law was that as long as you kept one wall of the old croft, you could build virtually anything you like around it.

    Not a lot of people know that these days!

    And count the sheep, and think of them as people instead.

    That’s the way the cookies crumble, or at least the depopulated revolting natives.

    Now look what you started @joannie!

  288. Ghillie

    Macart @ 9.08 am

    I think the most useful comment I can make today is to urge you all to go back and read Macart’s comment @ 9.08 am.

    Well said, well explained, thank you Macart = )

  289. yesindyref2

    Yes, Macart’s point about Sturgeon being a solicitor is an important one, because even if all this isn’t in her area of competence, she can do the research fairly quickly, know who will have the competence or at least as far as anyone can do in new circumstances, and understand what they’re saying – plus knowing what questions to ask.

  290. Rock

    Once the unionists and their allies, the Greens, have succeeded in repealing the OBFA, the SNP minority government should resign and let them (mis}govern Scotland.

    The more the SNP protects selfish voters from Westminster policies, the less likely there will be a Yes majority.

    In my view, it is time the SNP puts independence above governing.

    Truth Always.

  291. Capella

    @ Jack Murphy – interesting video. I then watched the longer version – 20 mins of Rob Shorthouse explaining how to manipulate people’s vote. What a scurrilous bunch they really are. Still, useful to know which buttons they press and how:

  292. mr thms

    Sorry for being off topic..

    Found this amazing story in The Guardian today, which everyone should share.

    Time for her achievements to be honoured..

  293. colin alexander


    So, the position is: The majority voted for The UK Union
    The majority voted for the EU ( as part of a UK vote).

    So the UK Govt say you can’t have the EU
    I accept the SNP have stood up and said: Scotland voted Remain and should be allowed to remain in both Unions.

    UK Govt says no.

    However, the SNP then wants to help negotiate Brexit.


    Have an indyref.


    The UK say the EU referendum was a UK wide vote, so must be abided by.


    So the Scot Govt should have a Scotland vote to leave or Remain and respect the result, as respecting Scotland’s people’s sovereignty or their representatives ( the SP is proportionally elected and fairly reflects the political make-up of the electorate).


    Likewise present that position to the EU to respect the will of Scotland’s EU citizens to either remain or stay in the EU and negotiate – representing them too. ( Especially if they vote saying Scotland should stay in the EU.)


    Likewise the UK Govt would be under pressure to respect the result of that vote or be viewed as undemocratic by Tory, Labour and Libdem voters in Scotland, as this is not a party political issue, but a national Scotland / EU issue.


    At the end of the day we can’t force the UK or EU to respect the sovereign choice of Scotland, but to reject it will show them to be disrespecting Scotland’s people’s sovereign will. Not the SNP Govt, but Scotland’s people’s democratic will. ( If the SP or people vote Remain in a Scottish vote).


  294. Juan P

    @mr thms

    Amazing story and thanks for sharing.

    Current Scotland squad also has a top serie A player in the team:

    Looking forward to watching the women play in their first major finals. I get the impression they are more passionate about playing for their country than the men.

  295. Mungo

    Colin Alexander.
    Trouble is Colin, the people of Scotland are not sovereign. Prior to the last referendum you could perhaps make that argument. But we’ve given it away. We voted NO. Anyway the Scotland is sovereign argument has in reality always been hot air. Scotland does what it’s told. Sadly that’s the way the Scots like it.

  296. Robert Peffers

    @Tartanarse says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:17 pm:

    “We all sing Flower of Scotland at international football matches. That song refers to defeating another country in battle.”

    That’s quite a different matter, Tartanarse, so that’s deflection. The point being made was that the Irish situation was civil war. That is Irish Nationals fighting and killing Irish Nationals.

    That doesn’t imply that anyone is condoning wars between independent states who are enemies.

    Historically Ireland was a bit of a strange one in that there were several Kings of Ireland on the go at any particular time and they fought each other with the most powerful King pf Ireland being hailed as The High King of Ireland.

    In any event The Holy Roman Se, (The Pope in Rome), who was the then leader of Europe, (Christendom). Decreed that the then King of England was Lord of Ireland and the superior of all Irish Kings.

    Later Henry VIII, took it upon himself, after falling out with Rome nominally because of his divorces and executions but actually more because he appointed himself as the leader of the Christian Church in England instead of the Pope. In 1542 the Parliament of Ireland passed the Crown of Ireland Act that placed the high crown of England upon the king of England’s head.

    Making all Ireland a dominion of the Kingdom of England. Thus the fighting in Ireland by the IRA, (before the Irish Free State declared itself Independent), was Irish fighting Irish – Civil War.

    When Scotland was at war with England they were two independent Kingdoms. The war was caused by England claiming that when they deposed the monarch of England, (in 1688), he was also King of the still independent Scotland but, because Scotland was still independent, Westminster deposing their monarchy could not be legally applied to Scotland.

    Then, the Westminster rebels who had rebelled against their king, and deposed their rightful King, claimed that the Jacobites were the rebels, but as Scotland was still independent in 1688, the Jacobites could not be rebels for the new King of England was not their King. You cannot rebel against a foreign king.

  297. yesindyref2

    “So the Scot Govt should have a Scotland vote to leave or Remain and respect the result”

    Already happened in June 2016. The result was 62% Remain, 38% Leave. It’s the unionists don’t respect that result.

  298. yesindyref2

    “That is Irish Nationals fighting and killing Irish Nationals.”

    Absolute shite.

  299. Lochside

    Re. The ‘Old or Auld Firm’..they were so-called by the press because of the many games they ‘drew’ in order to get replays, as was required in the early days of association fitba’ ,and secure more money. The name was a sly dig at their collusion to swindle their fans out of more money. So no change there!

    It had nothing to do with their antiquity over any other teams. Hibs were known as the ‘Irishmen’ and were Scotland’s leading team. Brother Walfrid and leading Catholics in Glasgow decided on forming Celtic as an answer to the Hibernian. They promptly stole most of Hibs best players over the first few inaugral seasons to Hibs and their supporters chagrin.

    Brother Walfrid called Celtic that name as an inclusive one for all Celts both Protestant and R.C. and Irish and Scottish. They were not set out as an exclusively Catholic club. Many of the second generation Scots players of Irish parentage chose to play for Scotland. Dundee United were also begun as Dundee Hibernian, because again of the large Irish immigrant population there.

    Why then is there almost no sectarianisn in Dundee and only a minor element in Edinburgh with these two proud Irish rooted Scottish clubs?…look back at my posting about Harland and Wolfe’s actions of bringing in hundreds of active Ulster loyalist bigots at the height of the Insurrection by the UVF in 1912. Celtic, I believe would have been fully absorbed into Scottish society far quicker, if this population of bigots had not been introduced and espoused Rangers. Don’t forget only 24 years earlier Rangers officials assisted the Celtic ones with setting up the club.

    One other point…Celtic fly the Tricolour at Parkhead, but they also fly the Union Jack. I am not an apologist for Celtic football club, nor a supporter. But when we have a resident ‘historian’ whose about as accurate as Neil Oliver, pontificating about Ireland’s near ethnic cleansing during the 19th century, and the many invasions by England and its Scottish adherents as settlers ( to our everlasting shame) as ‘uk’ subjects ‘ fighting Irish ‘UK subjects’..then I have to grue.
    Ireland and its people, like Scotland was a nation of separate people who were ‘subjugated’ by imperial England. Hence,that’s why we are all on here,the ‘subjects’ of a Germanic dynasty and its bogus ‘democractic’ ruling Anglo/Brit elite.And when we finally get off our knees in sufficient numbers we will assert our identity as no longer subjects of a foreign oppressor.

  300. Robert Peffers

    @yesindyref2 says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:37 pm:

    ” … Personally I would be far more ready to believe a version of Irish history from an Irish person, rather than a UK one.”

    That, yesindyref2, is absolutely hilarious.

    Let me explain – I have spent considerable time and effort attempting to decipher the History of Ireland as written by different Irish Historians. I was forced to a certain conclusion.

    There are as many versions of Irish History as there are Irish Historians. There is thus only one way to get to the truth of Irish History.

    The many Irish Historians, (more or less), agree on the dates on which events took place but you must discard all historian’s interpretations of these events and read the events as for what they are and look at what actually happened and why they happened.

    To get that into perspective. All Ireland, by an act of the all Ireland parliament, passed The Crown of Ireland Act in 1542. That made All Ireland a dominion of the Kingdom of England.

    Bear in mind that The Crown of Ireland Act was passed by the Parliament of Ireland not by the Parliament of England.

    Then, after civil war between the Irish factions, Westminster created the Irish Free State but that only made Southern Ireland a, more or less, devolved dominion of the Kingdom of England.

    It did not create a separate country and The Irish Free State was not actually a free state it was still a Dominion of the Kingdom of England.

    It was not until 1937 that the Irish Free State declared itself as The independent Republic of Ireland.

  301. mr thms

    Suppose Scotland had voted Yes in 2014, there would need to be a process of dissolving the UK and disentangling the UK from it’s membership of the EU and treaties. Also, how would Scotland gain all the powers of a sovereign state to enable it to remain an equal partner of the EU. Seems to me, you would need create something like the Scotland Act 2016 and Article 50..

  302. ronnie anderson

    Things must be bad on the Brexit front when they have to send in the royal’s to Woo Hoo Hoo the German’s.

  303. Dan Huil

    I’ve just finished reading, “The Republic: The Fight for Irish Independence” by the English historian Charles Townshend. For what it’s worth I highly recommend it.

  304. yesindyref2

    “Let me explain”

    Please don’t. I have to hide the screen from my Irish wife, or she’ll laugh so much I won’t get my tea.

  305. colin Alexander


    There is hope.

    The working class have only had the vote for less than the last 100 years, even less if you consider female emancipation.

    Since then people have voted in a govt that nationalised railways etc.

    They have voted in an SNP Govt, and 45 voted to end the UK.

    Of course they are sovereign. Even the Unionists don’t dispute that. They keep saying: Scotland’s people voted NO. That’s an assertion of Scotland’s sovereignty.

    If they weren’t sovereign, then how could decide YES or NO?

    One thing most agreed is that what Scotland’s people decided is what mattered. It reaffirmed we are sovereign.



    The question in the referendum was:

    Should the UNITED KINGDOM remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    That’s the weakness of the argument for Scotland remaining. That’s why I believe the Scottish Parliament or the larger population should answer this question:

    Should Scotland remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    Then the answer presented to the EU and UK before anything is decided.

    We are UK citizens and EU citizens. They both claim to be democratic organisations. How will that look if either or both respond rejecting a democratic decision?

  306. Legerwood


    Report in the on-line Guardian about a viewer satisfaction with the BBC, and others channels.

    Scotland least satisfied with the BBC – not a surprise

    Quote from article:
    “”TV viewers in Scotland rated the BBC lower than those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A total of 43% of Scottish viewers said their satisfaction with the BBC was eight out of 10 or more, compared to 52% in England, 55% in Wales and 56% in Northern Ireland.”

    “The BBC was criticised in Scotland for its coverage of the independence referendum in 2014 and Ofcom has already told the corporation to invest more outside London.””

  307. colin Alexander


    Some have argued, once Brexit ruins Scotland then people will be more likely to vote for indy.

    You suggest something similar: If a non-SNP Govt administer the devolved powers and Scotland is worse as a result, then people will again be more likely to vote SNP.

    That could be the case. Personally, I’d prefer to avoid the suffering that would cause, if possible.

    But I totally agree that the SNP / Greens and other pro indy parties should campaign on a manifesto seeking a mandate that they will hold an independence vote in the Scottish Parliament following the proportionally represented election of the MSPs to the Scottish Parliament.

    The PR elected MSPs then vote on a motion: Should Scotland be an independent country?

    That would be 100% democratic.

    We’d be told the Scotland Act forbids Holyrood from deciding constitutional matters. But the democratic mandate for indy would be undeniable. The Scot Govt as democrats abides by the vote and opens indy negotiations with WM.

    If WM refuses to recognise it, then we go international with it.

    If WM still insist on ignoring the democratic mandate for indy. That would be the time to declare UDI. Thus, WM would have no say, as we’d be a separate country.

  308. Thepnr

    This is an article from a Scottish football dedicated website from 2004, much of it is very relevant even today:

    “Scotland less and less inclined to accept religious prejudice. Anti-bigotry legislation is imminent and the First Minister himself is taking a high-profile hard line (even summoning club chairmen to his office after a particularly rancorous derby in 2002).”

    So who was that First Minister in 2002? None other than Scottish Labours very own Jack McConnell. Yes, he believed back then that Anti-bigotry legislation was maybe necessary. Like most things though that Scottish Labour thought would be good for the country they never actually bothered to enact anything which is exactly what they have done for all their years in power. That is absolutely nothing.

    “It is estimated that local hospital admissions increase ninefold after an Old Firm game and at least eight people have been murdered since 1999 in sectarian attacks, according to Glasgow anti-sectarianism group Nil By Mouth.”

    Remember that this was written in 2004 so an estimated 8 murders in just 5 years attributed to a football match. It really doesn’t even bear thinking about if correct.

    Scrapping of the OBFA act rather than improving it is nothing more than political posturing of the worst kind. Scrapping it will be harmful and for some, as the eight dead and their families know to their cost in just a few years is something that should not be ignored.

    Politicians can be idiots, we know that much. I’m as sick of the tribal rhetoric as the next person, be that religion or politics being the things we should never discuss apparently.

    I’ve often wondered why we should never discuss them so I have.

  309. Dr Jim

    There’s that UK vote rearing its ugly head again when anybody who thinks about it for half a second has got to come to the conclusion there is no such thing

    There’s and Inglind vote and the rest of us are forced to abide by that, it’s the monkey on the stick vote, if Inglind votes for the monkey Scotland and the other parts gets the stick shoved up their Arses

    How can anybody seriously suggest after the EU vote that a UK vote on anything is fair when the so called equal partners in the UK are treated as regions of Inglind
    Even if every single voter in Scotland voted remain it would have made no difference

    That’s not politics, that’s might is right and it’s why every country who has left the United Kingdom of Inglind is not on the phone begging to come back to this wonderful democracy of theirs

    There’s a different kind of diplomacy coming in a few short weeks that’s not quite so consensual and reasonable as has previously been the case, Scotland’s been putting up with these Unionist buffoons long enough

    Time for us tae huv a kick of the Baw!

  310. colin Alexander

    @Dr Jim

    Valid comment. If it’s a UK wide vote, then any vote is heavily slewed by over 10/1 that what England decides is what counts. ( due to the huge disparity in populations).

    But if it’s a Scotland EU vote and that is rejected by WM, then that is even more proof that the best option – or only real democratic option – is indy.

    It would hopefully boost support for the indy campaign so we do indeed get oor baw back and no longer have to play in a rigged game by WM’s bent rules.

  311. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Robert Peffers.

    You seem to be confused about the two professional football teams in Dundee.

    From the links below…

    “Inspired by the example of Hibernian in Edinburgh the Irish Catholic community in Dundee formed a new football club in 1909, following the demise of Dundee Harp.

    Originally called Dundee Hibernian, the club took over Clepington Park (renamed Tannadice Park) from Dundee Wanderers and played its inaugural game on 18 August, 1909 against Hibernian, a match which ended in a 1–1 draw.

    The following year, the club was voted into the Scottish Football League. The club was saved from going out of business in October 1923 by a group of Dundee businessmen who then decided to change the club’s name to Dundee United to appeal to a wider audience than the Irish Catholic community; the name Dundee City was considered but was objected to by long standing city rivals Dundee F.C.”


    “Dundee F.C. was formed in 1893 by the merger of two local clubs, East End and Our Boys, with the intention of gaining election to the Scottish Football League (SFL).

    Their application was successful and they played their first League game on 12 August 1893 at West Craigie Park, securing a 3–3 draw against Rangers.”

    I should also point out that as United’s and DFC’s home games are usually week about, one of the more famous pubs at the Coldside Circle (Frew’s) is a DFC pub one weekend and a United pub the other.

    Also, in Dundee, you will find members of the same family supporting either team. In Dundee, it seems we want to see OUR teams doing well against everyone else but, when it comes to a Dundee derby, each individual has their own preference.

  312. joannie

    Robert Peffers – “Let me explain”.

    Don’t bother. You’ve shown yourself completely incapable of understanding that the War of Independence in Ireland was between the Irish and the Crown forces charged with holding onto her by military force. It was not a Civil War, and I think its been explained to you enough times now that you’re wrong.

  313. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:41 pm:

    “I would be especially wary of accepting lectures on Irish history from someone who doesn’t realise that Ireland was a Christian country long before the Normans came along.”

    Bloody hilarious. I come from a family where all four grandparents were from mixed Protestant-RC marriages and my parents were also a mixed Protestant-Catholic marriage.

    I never heard any of them, or their children ever ague about religion. The point, though, is that throughout my education I attended either whatever state school was nearer home or whichever was a notably better school.

    Now back then what were laughably called non-denominational schools were factually very much out and out Church of Scotland/protestant schools. Other denominations and other religions were not really a factor back then.

    Although when I attended secondary education in Leith, then a large and busy dockland area, there were some, such as Sikhs but their religion was not catered for.

    Now here’s the really funny thing. When I attended the non-denominational/Protestant schools they discriminated against me as a Catholic and tried to convert me to their particular brand of Christianity.

    When I was attending an RC school they discriminated against me as a Protestant and attempted to convert me to their particular brand of Christianity.

    So, Joannie, I am well aware that the pre-Norman Conquest people of Ireland were Christians but not the same brand of Christianity as espoused by Rome.

    That’s what sectarianism is all about, Joannie. They are different sects of Christianity and have a very long World history of hatered and of killing each other in their zeal to be the one true form of Christianity.

    That’s Irish history in particular and we saw the big bonfires with the Catholic effigies being burned dangerously close to Catholic homes and we hear the OO marches of hate throughout Scotland particularly in the past few days. Then we have the anti-Protestant IRA.

    Here’s another laughable, if it wasn’t so tragic fact.
    I can remember very well when there was an openly anti-Catholic policy in force at Ibrox. I just cannot remember the names of the players involved.

    However, apparently Rangers had signed a player that some supporters thought was connected with Catholicism and the MSM was full of the story. At the same time Rangers were in the process of signing up a player from a Jewish background.

    There was absolutely no problems with a Jewish lad playing for Rangers but the tsunami of protests at a suspected RC kicking a ball for Rangers was enormous. If memory serves the guy was not actually a Catholic but had a Catholic girl friend or some such nebulous connection.

  314. mike d

    Mo Johnson first Catholic graham souness signed. The ibrox loyal on the beeb and stv burning their season ticket books. I remember it well.

  315. mike d

    Robert peffers 8.32pm. ‘Anti protestant ira?. A few of the ira lads i knew were good protestants Robert.

  316. James Caithness

    Robert Peffers says:
    17 July, 2017 at 8:32 pm
    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 1:41 pm:

    “If memory serves the guy was not actually a Catholic but had a Catholic girl friend or some such nebulous connection.”


    Matter of interest, Alex Ferguson (Sir) was married to a catholic when he played for Rangers.Or maybe he was just going with her?

  317. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “We all sing Flower of Scotland at international football matches”

    Did you SEE where I said anyone mentioning Flower Of Scotland in this conversation got fucking banned? ?

  318. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Aye @ronnie anderson says at 6:31 pm

    “Things must be bad on the Brexit front when they have to send in the royal’s to Woo Hoo Hoo the German’s.”

    That and the Poles (who appear to have as much of an Anti Immigrant Fascist Government as the UK at the moment).

    UKOK Royalty kissing Poland’s erse.

    The same Poland who’s forces in exile were the only ones prohibited from marching in the WWII Victory Parade in London by Churchill (in case it pissed off Stalin’s USSR).

    Even Stalin let the Polish First Army, which had been in action taking Berlin as part of the Soviet Army, march in the victory parade in Moscow.

    UKOK hypocrisy at it’s best/worst depending on your point of view).

    The same Poland who’s citizens currently residing in the UK are being abused, bullied and in some cases murdered for being ‘foreigners and immigrants’ in Ingerlund.

  319. Mungo

    Bollocks !!! The SNP already HAVE a mandate ffs !!!

  320. mike d

    Should have said, are “still “good protestant lads.

  321. Mungo

    We had a vote because Westminster decided to GRANT us a vote. And now they have decided not to grant us a vote. That doesn’t sound too sovereign to me! And what’s more depressing is that the majority of Scots seem to think that’s just fine.
    The sorry truth is that most Scots are as ignorant as the clowns that voted Brexit down south. Most Scots turn into anxious wrecks and the very idea of sovereignty.

  322. Glamaig

    My Irish girlfriend of many years ago taught me her perspective. Ireland was minding its own business for thousands of years until the ‘Brits’ came along. Finally 800 years later they got rid of the bastards, but continued to have a British problem in the north. When we drove through the north she was raging at the sight of British troops on the streets. Straightforward but obviously not the British version.

  323. Petra

    @ mr thms says at 5:30 pm …. ”Sorry for being off topic. Found this amazing story in The Guardian today, which everyone should share. Time for her achievements to be honoured….. Rose Reilly Scottish footballer.”

    Thanks for that mr tms. Strange that there’s never any mention of these great Scots on BBC / STV.

    I’d like to post some data on another two amazing Scottish women…. Sammi Kinghorn and Sheena Sutherland. Seems that neither age nor disability will deter the Scots. Wha’s like us!!

    Sammi Kinghorn has broken the World record. WOW! What a girl! Left wheelchair bound at age 14 when her back was crushed in an accident: Forklift truck driven by her father.


    Sheena (59) smashes the glass ceiling of Taekwon-do to become World’s second female 9th Degree Grand Master

  324. Mungo

    For what it’s worth, my general position now is that the SNP need to take the gloves off. I’ve voted SNP since I was old enough to vote and i’m a current member. They’ve done well to get us to this point but it’s looking awfy like they’re about to continue the great Scottish tradition of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

  325. joannie

    Robert Peffers, I’m really not interested in your big long monologue about sectarianism through the ages. You don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to Irish history, as evidenced by your inability to see the difference between a civil war and a war between colonisers and the colonised.

  326. galamcennalath

    Ireland. How many died on each side of its two consecutive wars according to Wiki ….

    1. Irish War of Independence 1919-1921

    Pro-Independence forces:
    Irish Repulican Army ~550 dead

    Anti-Independence forces:
    Royal Irish Constabulary 410 dead
    British Army 261 dead
    Ulster Special Constabulary 43 dead

    Plus ~750 civilians dead

    Total dead: ~2,014

    2. Irish Civil War 1922-1923

    Pro-Treaty forces:
    Irish National Army killed ~800 dead

    Anti-Treaty forces:
    Republicans and others, unknown ~1,000–3,000 dead

    Plus Civilians: unknown

    Total dead: unknown (perhaps as many as 4000)

  327. heedtracker

    joannie, you gave me a row for getting the Irish wrong too. But what’s the good word over there, Brexit wise and is it true what the BBC say, the Irish want to be British again, all over again?

  328. June

    As a long time lurker can I just say that I do Not come onto a pro SCOTTISH independence site to read about Fin Ireland. They’ve had/ have their own fight , I just wish people on this site spent as much time on ours . Sectarianism in the west of Scotland can/ will be dealt with once that happens and not by a bunch of ‘my granny’s irish etc ‘ folk taking over one of the best Scottish site.
    Take your fight back to Ireland north and south.

  329. Robert J. Sutherland

    Thepnr @ 19:25,

    Well pointed out.

    If you only listened to BLiS and their pals in the media you might assume it was some kind of Golden Age when they were last in charge. But we who lived through that era know better.

    Those who have become new voters over the last few years when the SNP formed the SG are probably unaware of just how much worse our governance was when SLab were in power with the help of the FibDems. And that was the pre-austerity era as well.

    Just think how many young people have been able to get a degree, for instance, without being saddled with large debts. Bridge tolls and ferry charges, for another. I could go on.

    So beware, those charmed by Corbyn into supporting Labour. That’s not what you would be getting here. Not by a very long chalk.

  330. joannie

    @heedtracker – no that’s not true, and I’ve never heard the BBC say that either.

  331. heedtracker

    joannie says:
    17 July, 2017 at 10:22 pm
    @heedtracker – no that’s not true, and I’ve never heard the BBC say that either.

    Beeb say it all the time, a kind of cultural under toad, tory style, like, “British Isles, A Natural History and British Isles, natural, historic, all one and the same collective family of Britishness, Ireland included, ofcourse

    But that’s just one tiny aspect of the BBC all one isles propaganda.

  332. Davosa

    Few blatant shit lies in this piece from the ”Top Cop Scndal’ shitsheet. There are no cells at Dalmarnock – its an admin building bfs. BTW Kelly is one of the biggest wankers in Scottish politics – that includes Tory scum wankers too !

  333. Thepnr

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    My main point Robert as I’m sure you gathered was that Anti-bigotry legislation appears to be have considered by Scottish Labour way back in 2002 when it was reported as being “imminent”. By Lord McConnell no less, Labour hypocrites now.

    We know it never happened back then but you can be sure the only reason for supporting the scrapping of it now is purely down to wishing to inflict a defeat on the Scottish government that did get around to introducing such an act. They just happen to be an SNP government and that will not do.

    This is what I despise, I doubt the Tories or SNP would try to scrap such an act introduced by Labour in Scotland. No, they are playing petty politics. It would be pathetic even if people weren’t dying before of religion and sectarianism in Scotland but the reality is that they are. Repeal of this act could literally cost lives. That is not an exaggeration in my view.

    Death is a single souls is not worth it, it’s not even worth a sore face if it could be prevented. This act and awareness of it helps prevent such violence. Yet some would scrap it even though the great majority of the Scottish public support it.

    Madness or political tribalism. I think it’s a bit of both.

  334. heedtracker

    This guy rounded off his tour of Ireland thing with something like, we’re all the same really, us Brits, in Ireland, British, just divided by horrid seps and politics.

  335. Dr Jim

    They’ve been wheeling them all out today we’ve had Winston Churchill all Inglind hero, the Royal youngsters visiting Poland and I learned the the Royals aren’t political as well, new one on me that Purr Purr
    and on the SKY press preview idiot tiny minded Daily Mail woman Harriet Sergeant tells us we should be attacking the EU
    The whole Tory cabinet in some sort of political MMA without a ring, folk being thrown out of their homes to make way for a train that will take you nowhere 20 minutes quicker than before and it’ll be the best in the world even though you could’ve just left the house 20 minutes earlier rather than bankrupt everybody to pay for it

    Oh, and today in Scotland there was no news, nothing happened, no involvement in the world whatsoever except a new terminal in Aberdeen which is great except for the nimbys next door who complained they wanted more stuff but this is apparently the wrong stuff

  336. colin alexander

    @ Mungo

    The SNP have a mandate for what was in their manifestos. They have a mandate for an indyref, not a SP vote on indy.

    The EU ref was in a UK context. Not a specific Scotland vote on EU membership.

    The 2017 SNP GE manifesto said ( easy read version):

    “But if the SNP wins this election, we will demand that keeping Scotland in the Single Market is made a part of the UK’s Brexit negotiations.”

    I’m sure people can understand the SNP position there without me saying anything. Draw your own conclusions.

  337. colin alexander

    @ Mungo

    So, as a current member of the SNP, what would you suggest to your branch is the next course of action for your party?

    Take the gloves off how?

  338. Cal

    Dutch PM announced today that there would be no change to government policy on dual nationality for Dutch citizens i.e. it’s not possible to hold two nationalities at the same time. The shit just got real for a whole bunch of Dutch people on this side of the North Sea. They now must choose between taking British nationality and giving up their Dutch nationality (and thus their status as an EU citizen) or going back to their old home. I really feel for people in mixed marriages (and especially where there are children) – one of the adults must now make a decision, and fast, about their family’s future. I’m told Germany and Spain have similar rules although as far as I know their governments have not made any recent announcements on the matter.

    What a fu€%ing mess! Thanks England and Wales. Thanks guys. Truly we are so so much better together!

  339. Thepnr

    The long version from the SNP manifesto of 2017, just to prevent any doubt and to allow you to draw your own conclusions.

    Protecting Scotland’s place in the Single Market

    We must make sure that our interests are not ignored in the
    Brexit negotiations – a vote for the SNP will make sure that
    Scotland’s voice is heard.

    A majority of people in Scotland voted to remain in the EU –
    but even many of those who voted to leave have real concerns
    about the extreme Brexit being pursued by the Prime Minister.

    Leaving the Single Market could cost 80,000 jobs in Scotland.That is why the Scottish Government published proposals that would keep Scotland in the Single Market, even as we left the EU.

    These proposals were rejected by the UK government. However, if the SNP wins this election, we will demand a place for Scotland at the Brexit negotiating table and the inclusion of the case for our place in the Single Market in the UK’s negotiating remit.

    Scotland’s place in Europe

    The SNP believes that if Scotland chooses to become Independent, we should be a member state of the EU.

    Before asking people to vote in an independence referendum, we will set out the process by which our membership of the EU will be secured in the circumstances that prevail at that time – such as whether or not Scotland has already left the EU as part of the UK. Page 29 of manifesto.

  340. yesindyref2

    @Colin Alexander
    The question in the referendum was:

    Should the UNITED KINGDOM remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    Yeawh, that’s what some of the less Scotland minded Unionists argue. Some of them though recognise that Scotland voted differently to the rest of the UK and I think you’ll find just about all Indy supporters do as well.

    It’s the basis for Indy Ref 2 as clearly laid out in the SNP manifesto for the 2016 Holyrood Election – an election they won by 64 seats to the nearest competitor the Gories at 31, and even the Unionists combined at 60 seats.

    Then they even won the General Election by 35 seats to 24.

    So no, no need for a waste of time referendum on whether we should have a referendum about having a referendum on referendums.

  341. Thepnr

    Trolls never stop fishing, that’s why they live under bridges.

  342. Dave McEwan Hill

    James Caithness at 8.57

    Alex Ferguson got a transfer from Rangers when he became engaged to his fiance who was and is a Catholic. He believed that was why he got the free transfer. He told me himself.

  343. Jamie

    This legislation was a mistake by the SNP and it helps no one by criminalizing people for singing songs. It is very authoritarian and not progressive at all.

  344. joannie

    @heedtracker – when I clicked on your link to try and watch this video about how we’re all the same really, all British together, yada yada, it said “Not available in your location.”

    It seems even the BBC knows that Ireland isn’t British, no matter what they tell you.

  345. yesindyref2

    @Robert Peffers
    If you ever find youself in a pub in Carrigtwohill please pretty please just tell them you’re a lifelong supporter of Scottish Independence, you’ll have a great time.

    If on the other hand you give them your potttedy history of Ireland, then probably not. Though they might just think you’re winding them up.

    Give it a lash Jack!

  346. Still Positive

    Cal @ 11.32

    Aye a dilemma for many. I’m pretty certain Andy Burnham has a Dutch wife and their 3 children have dual nationality.

    What a decision many will have to make. Personally, if I was in that position, I would keep the EU passport as it conveys more safeguards than the Westminster government will give them.

    When the British Bill of Rights comes in it will only safeguard those with a British passport. So if you have a spouse without a British passport it will not cover them.

    My nephew has a Mexican wife and a daughter born in Scotland. I have told him she should not apply for an extension on her spouse visa as she faces the likelihood of being deported if she draws attention to herself.

  347. yesindyref2

    @Still Positive
    I think Irish citizens will still be OK. If not I’m off to Ireland, as hell would freeze over before my wife would take a British passport.

  348. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Robert Peffers.

    I addressed a post to you earlier this evening re the Dundee professional football teams.

    You have not responded. This has happened in the past, re a post by me addressed to you, where I correct you.

    I have been a long-time admirer of your posts re Scottish history but when you ignore posts which correct you, it makes one wonder how much of what you type is correct.

    It makes one wonder…

  349. crazycat

    @ Cal at 11.32

    I’m told Germany and Spain have similar rules

    I don’t know about Spain, but Germany’s rules changed. I have a German friend who did not want to give up her citizenship (at a time when that was required); she obtained indefinite leave to remain in the UK instead.

    So when she became able to apply for UK citizenship without giving up her German passport, she didn’t bother (I don’t know how long ago that was; not that long, I think).

    Now she’s wondering if that was a mistake.

  350. crazycat

    @ Brian Doonthetoon

    You’re not alone.

  351. colin alexander


    As I said, the SNP HAVE a mandate for an indyref, as the criteria was met, namely, a vote to take Scotland out of the EU, when Scotland voted remain.

    So, I’m in agreement. No dispute at all. But that’s the Unionist argument: it was a UK wide vote. If the Scot Parl votes on the subject. Then it’s a Scottish vote. It demolishes their argument completely. Then there’s no doubt it’s a Scottish decision.

    Puts them on the back foot again and more importantly, it may put pressure on the EU with the help of MEPs.

    The reason I’m saying Scot Parl vote too, is then it’s not just an SNP manifesto pledge, as some MSPs of other parties may just break ranks to support Scottish membership of the EU.

    It certainly puts them on the spot. Making them choose again WM vs Scotland’s EU interests.

    Wasn’t that a weakness already highlighted: the pro-EU stance of Ruth D and Kezia D? Leaders of parties that want to drag Scotland out of the EU when they said they were pro-EU ?

    Making them squirm and be forced to vote on it seems good to me. But I’ll leave youse to debate.

    Don’t want to hog the debate and put anyone off WoS.

    Night night Wingers. We are another day closer to independence.

  352. Robert J. Sutherland

    Jamie @ 23:41,

    Oh, bollocks to that little peep of cheap rhetoric. You really haven’t been paying any attention, have you?

  353. Jamie

    I posted a more expressive post but it was banned. I personally do not see what harm is done by singing songs. Have the SNP not got better things to be doing, more to the point, have the police not got better things to be doing?

  354. Jamie

    It’s not rhetoric it’s a fact, how does giving someone a criminal record for singing a song help? By making them lose their job? By preventing them from getting another job? By making them have to go to the job centre once a week to see some condescending piss wank? None of that helps or prevents so called crimes of passion. Fact.

  355. Petra

    BBC news. Dave Davis plus two mates meet up with Barnier and two mates. The latter attend the meeting with piles of files under their arms. The former sit at the table with not as much as a notepad in front of them. Westminster, England the laughingstock of the World. How the mighty fall right enough.


    I see that the ‘let’s hold a referendum on sovereignty or even another Scottish EU referendum’ trundles on, on here. I’ve always reckoned that wee Willie Rennie was a fool but even he ‘got it.’ When Nicola Sturgeon explained that she was putting Indyref2 on the back burner he retorted “so nothing’s changed then.” He got it right. Nicola Sturgeon will go along with the Westminster Brexit / Repeal Act fiasco until the situation becomes clear and before Westminster bails out. And if they shock us by throwing themselves over the cliff edge prematurely, so what? That would be in our favour too. One way or another, before or after, crucial data will be released relating to an Independent Scottish currency, GERS etc (a Committee of extremely prestigious people have been working on this for quite some time now such as Dame Marriot Leslie ex-Ambassador to NATO) and then a vote on Independence will be held ‘afforded’ by May or not.

    Hold a referendum on sovereignty that millions of Scots don’t have a clue about (with the usual scaremongering / lies and distortions from the MSM along the way) and then what, even if the Scots support it? Worse still if they vote against it? Holding a Scottish referendum in relation to the EU especially when no one has a clue about the in / out of the single market / customs union, or not, more so the ultimate alternative and the potential economical impact is also totally ludicrous. Why ask people to vote for pie in the sky? More than anything this would be a rerun of the UK EU referendum and would tell us nought about the percentage of people who would actually vote for Independence. In other words a repeat of 2016 but with the Unionists with loads of ‘dark’ dough / MSM totally focused on the Scots only. On full throttle ‘EU rubbish’ propaganda mode, no doubt.

    If you TRULY want Independence FOCUS instead on the forthcoming Independence referendum and stop trying to muddy the water. For one everyone is totally scunnered with elections / referendums. Taking that into account how many people would turn out to vote? A straightforward vote on Independence when Brexit / Independence facts are made clear would be a different kettle of fish, imo.

    If you really want Scotland to be Independent start posting data / facts in an attempt to influence opinions (like Stu and many others), get out from behind your computer and make a point of ‘converting’ at least one other person on the street so to speak and start showing support for the ONLY political party, the SNP, capable of helping us achieve the desired outcome. That’s IF that’s the outcome you actually DO desire?

  356. yesindyref2

    Amen to that.

  357. Petra

    Here comes Jamie adding to the long list of anti-Independence ‘folks’ posting on here NOW. Another using foul language. I’ve stopped recommending this site to others due to the aforementioned. I’m off. Night night folks. Hope you all have a great day. Seemingly the weather’s to be brilliant.

  358. Robert J. Sutherland

    Jamie @ 12:29,

    You seem to think it’s all about singing “Jingle bells” or somesuch. Yet would you sing any of your precious sectarian rubbish in front of an audience of sectarians from the other side?

    No, I doubt even you would be that naive or stupid. We’ve had more than enough of this pretendy disingenuousness.

    This is the pseudo-“civil liberty” of shouting “fire” in a packed theatre.

    It’s nasty hate-fuelled muck and it has no part to play in a modern civilised society, let alone in a game of footie. Grow up.

  359. Liz g

    Jamie @ 12.29
    Crime of Passion??..EH??
    I really don’t know what to do with that.
    I suppose all I can say is …at least you seem to know it’s a crime.
    And it’s thinking that passion is involved that’s criminal.
    Oh my giddy aunt…now I want to go and look at some of the footage,with…em..”fresh”eyes.

  360. Jamie

    When i tell people about this site I let them know it’s good for getting alternative info to the mainstream which is often wrong but dare to disagree with the post or the steeple who post you will either have your comment blocked or be bleeted at by the sheep. Yawn you lot are so predictable it’s boring, a lot like the SNP.

    I don’t get It, a lot of you are neither Celtic or rangers fans or even untreated in football. If I want to sing an “offensive” song at a football game you would not even know about it if it was not for the bleeding hearts that have nothing to do but whinge.

  361. Jamie

    I’m not a fan of laws banning offensive behaviour in particular areas. How is it okay to use offensive songs and jokes on TV but not in a football stadium? I believe that’s called hypocrisy. There is a sad trend towards banning things, it makes me think people like being told what to do. Even vaping is getting banned everywhere, people are routinely treated like children by the state and don’t seem to care, well I do care, and the state can do one.

  362. Dr Jim

    You do know that writing the word “fact” at the end of your submission doesn’t actually make it so and maybe looking up the dictionary for the word offensive might be informative
    plus the “state” usually ends up being elected by the lack of people who do care but don’t vote and by the Numpties who complain about everything and dislike the former group

    As for Celtic and Rangers I wouldn’t miss either of them but that’s just a personal view tinged with a distaste for bigotry and hatred of any type, you wouldn’t drink bad bacteria to poison yourself with so why put up with this that poisons a whole country full of people

    I do enjoy football though, that’s why I watch European leagues, those guys play very well

  363. Az

    ***Long post warning*** (I’ve seen much longer, but, y’know…)

    Hi guys – well this thread is unusual as it has rumbled along on various O/Ts for over 24 hours, and I now feel compelled to comment – as you know i rarely do – and as far as I remember never in potential controversy :-O

    So regarding the history stuff, and I am no historian, I know what I know and I’ll bet 80% of that is in fact propaganda, the continued narrative – Robert Peffers, joanie, Brian doon the toon and others…

    First of all I too immediately on first mention in my head said “No, Robert, Dundee United was the Hibernia of Dundee”. Glad to see others thought the same. I wonder if Robert knows something else about Dundee FC’s history involving who created or help set up the club, or if he just made a simple error.

    With regard to the whole Ireland and christians malarkey, the un-Romanised form of christianity present in Ireland in the early centuries CE (AD in old money) as I understood it was present as refugees, if you will, from the days of non-christian Roman Empire when they were persecuted, had fled to Ireland as a safe haven – the Romans having never bothered with Ireland for whatever reason.

    As far as I know, it was these christians a couple or so centuries on who came to Scotland – yer Columba, Convil, Mungo, Mirin (Mirren) and the others. That meant that the unRomanised highlands (the physical region) north of the Clyde, had an older and less politically interfered with form of christianity, and if memory serves, the people of the lowlands never really embraced the Roman way of life anyway and stuck with their paganism or whatever.

    I think that by about 700(?)CE that the actual centre of this old christianity was in fact the Scottish island of Iona – chosen because in the days of seafaring, it was pretty central to all kinds of areas of Scotland and Ireland. As far as I know, as this christianity spread south and into England, Iona remained that centre.

    *disclaimer* this is from my mind, no googling 🙂

    I understand that some time in about 1000 CE, there was a tetchy relationship between this (could I call it western orthodox? I’m sure I’ve seen it confusingly called Irish Catholicism, which is hopeless for us. Yes I’m going with my own invented term western orthodox and abbrev to WO) church and the Roman church.

    There was to be an important meeting somewhere (Avignon? Rome? no idea) of all the important christendom figures, and representing the WO church was the English king, Stephen I think. They were to discuss the extremely important matter of deciding how to work out the date of Easter. The WO were sure their method was correct, and that Rome wished to bastardise the method for some convenience or other, and Stephen assured Iona that he would indeed not budge.

    Of course under duress he totally caved, forcing this new rule onto the WO church, which severely and fatally weakened the authority of Iona – a few decades that WO thing was basically gone. (It seems so odd and irrelevant now, eh? Deciding the date of something. Serious stuff back then)

    All of this, all of it happened centuries before the stuff Robert was talking about. Now there may be a piece of this missing which Robert may or may not know – namely did Ireland’s mainland also fall in line with this, or did all or part of the Irish mainland continue with what I have coined as the WO church? I simply do not know.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Now, let’s cut to the dispute over the narrative of the UK Irish civil war/Irish struggle for freedom etc. I find joannie’s case very compelling indeed – that one cannot label something a civil war due to forced “citizenship” between the warring sides. In fact to that extent I wholeheartedly agree with her. Civil war seems an incorrect label however you frame it.

    However, I can see Robert’s point, if not quite from his perspective or for the same reasons. (Robert I think suffers the same thing as me I believe, in exploring tangents further than necessary due to a brain info overload). In comparing to other parts of British empire, there may be a key difference from a British perspective, between Ireland and the others – in that Ireland was seen by the British as an actual part of the UK, even though it is beyond doubt it was treated as a colony. Whereas, the overseas territories, as far as I know, were always referred to as colonies. That would mean that technically and maybe even legally it would be classed as a civil war, daft as that is, and as obviously favouring the British narrative as it does.

    To my knowledge, only one European empire treated all its territories as actual parts of the same country, and that was Portugal. The Portuguese empire, in terms of longevity, was actually the most successful of them all – and this is often given as a reason. Also, the Portuguese favoured mixing of native and settled communities, and had far less persecution of the natives. I’m no expert on the Portuguese empire, but I do not know of widespread genocides like the British favoured. I also happen to know the tale of Xica (Francisca) Da Silva:

    Xica Da Silva, a negra, a negra,
    De escrava a amante, mulher, mulher
    Do fidalgo tratador João Fernades

    Xica Da Silva, the black [woman], from slave to lover* of the nobleman and caretaker** João Fernades.

    [*perhaps in English we’d favour a word like concubine, since we are dealing with old nobility; **tratador is like a title, maybe a bit like governor or lord – unsure of an exact equivalent – there probably isn’t one]

    Their relationship was a scandal in colonial Brazil at the time – but she bore an insane number of kids to him (13) and these very black children, or I should really say the boys, became nobility themselves, and sat in the court of the Portuguese king Luis, while the girls became part of the bourgoisie and were very high in an Afro-Brazilian religious order the Macaúbas. Now at this point, I’m not going to pretend it was a hunkydory empire – it was racist as all of them in many ways, but the ideology was clearly different to its European neighbours’ empires. There is more than one account of her life after João died, I favour the more tragic one because I suspect that the white Brazilians have rewritten it with a happy ending to make them look better, but isn’t history always a bit false? Funnily enough…

    So I guess the point I’m reaching in a rather convoluted manner, is that military force took the land of Brazil, all too easily WRT the natives, as with all of them, and the only real fight the Portuguese got would’ve been from the Spanish in what is today Uruguay, Paraguay and Argentina especially. Would we even call an uprising by the natives of Brazil a “civil war” even though Brazil was classed as actual Portugal? No, I really don’t think we would. Maybe the Portuguese would say that though…

    Finally, I’d just like to point out that you should notice it takes our Robert a very long time to get his posts out, and he is often replying some hours after the fact. So those asking about his failure to respond shouldn’t be too harsh. He may get back to you tomorrow, unless everything’s moved on by then, as it probably will have.

    I still trust his assertions on Scottish sovereignty almost entirely, and they match things I’ve picked up elsewhere – but sometimes there’s a bit more to things as in this Irish question, than just who owned what at which time.

    Hope everyone is good and love to all, as always x

  364. Az

    I just read that back, and now retract the long post warning!

  365. yesindyref2

    Getting back to the OFBA thing, I don’t really see it as a deep strong actual Independence issue, as apart from a few SNP-bashers like Kelly, there’s probably as much support or opposition amongst YES voters as amongst the NO not yet YES voters.

    That’s certainly true for the posters on the Herald whose Indy orientation I know, on the odd occasion the issue comes up, or if I have a look at football threads for a laugh (about which quite frankly my dear I don’t give a damn whether Rangers or Celtic or any of the prima-donna infested football league clubs. Stand any of them against an under 18 Rugby 15 whether male or female and they’d be crushed like grass in the wind).

  366. bugsbunny


    Without looking it up I’m pretty sure in was in Whitby in Yorkshire in 665 AD or something that brought the old Celtic church into line with the Roman Church concerning Easter, the Tonsure and the Eucharist. I may be wrong, but from memory I don’t think so. But I don’t think that extinguished the Celtic Church, just the first nail in it’s coffin. I’m sure Queen Margaret in the 1070’s however put the final nail in the coffin of the Celtic Church.

    Going back to sleep now.

  367. Az

    Hmmm, I think Jamie, that people don’t come on the telly singing those songs, do they? It is many years since the likes of Roy “unfunny” Brown (or whatever his name was) and that other one, ahhh can’t remember his name he died a few years ago – actually a skilled comedian, unlike Roy, but racist jokes galore – have been given airtime.

    In fact, don’t we need to go back to the early 80s for that? And even then, weren’t they relics of the 70s? The dead one certainly was. I’m sure someone will know who I mean. Manchester type guy descended, surprisingly, from Irish catholics, but playing to the English WASP crowd with his humour. Pretty fat.

    **disclaimer** I don’t remember him or his name because I would have been a wee boy when he did last get on TV, but I do remember seeing a documentary about him on Ch4 after he died. It is a name if you said it I’d know. Sorry guys :/

  368. Az


  369. Az

    Cheers bugsbunny, that’s thrown a spanner in my brain works and rings no bells at all!!

    Have to look it up tomorrow (today) if I remember 🙂

    Sleep well my friend 🙂

    @yesindyref2 – yes on all counts

  370. Breeks

    Petra says

    “…. Hold a referendum on sovereignty that millions of Scots don’t have a clue about (with the usual scaremongering / lies and distortions from the MSM along the way) and then what, even if the Scots support it? Worse still if they vote against it?…..”

    And if that’s the extent to which the SNP understands sovereignty, then suddenly their “stealth” approach towards independence starts to make sense.

    You cannot vote your sovereignty away.

    The articles which enshrine our sovereignty are the 1328 Treaty of Edinburgh when the divine monarchy of England recognised the reign of King Robert the Bruce in perpetuity, a perpetual recognition of a monarchy who’s monarchy was not sovereign, but defined in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath as inferior to the sovereign will of the Scottish people, and recognised formally in 1328 by God’s instrument on Earth, the Pope.

    The Scottish people are sovereign in Scotland, forever and for all time, and that sovereignty is unalienable and non transferable, and CANNOT be voted away.

    EVERY act of Scottish democracy is inferior to Scottish sovereignty, because it is sovereignty which empowers the vote to mean something.

    England can have consultative referendums, because the English people are subjects to a divine sovereignty of their Parliament, under Monarch, under God. Their voice can thus be dismissed by their Parliament. Scotland’s sovereignty is fundamentally different and rests with the people, so when the sovereign people express an opinion by referendum, it is not a consultative exercise, but an expression of sovereign will.

    We did not vote away our sovereignty in 2014, we voted to remain in a state of constitutional denial that we are a sovereign people. We chose to remain blinkered and to not see the truth.

    Our Scottish government is fumbling its way towards independence because it too doesn’t apparently grasp the actual, intractable nature of Scottish sovereignty, and is blinded by the same 300 years faux convention that has allowed the Union to exist without proper competency in law.

    Scottish Sovereignty is Scotland’s own Gordian Knot, an intractable conundrum which no usurper seeking to overthrow Scotland can overcome. Our sovereignty does not lie in the throne, our government, or any dynasty of monarch, but in every one of us.

    The Union cannot properly exist because it cannot accommodate Scottish sovereignty. Sadly, we are bound to subjugation by the Union because the intellect of the average Scot cannot seem to accommodate the principles of Scottish Sovereignty either. We stand railing at the bars in frustration, but the door to our cage is open and always has been.

    We can lay claim to our sovereignty whenever we are ready. It is ours, only ours, and belongs to nobody else. We should formally challenge Westminster to articulate the legitimacy of its professed capacity to weild and /or ignore Scotland’s sovereign will, and when they cannot do so, tell them to remove their hands from what doesn’t belong to them.

    Mind, when our own government doesn’t recognise Scottish sovereignty, then why should Westminster or the international community recognise it either? But hey, you’ll have to take that up with the SNP.

  371. Ken500

    Another Tory fiasco. HS2. Another illegal total waste of public money which will make train journey throughout the UK take longer. More absolute Tories lies. It will make train journeys to Scotland take longer and be more expensive. The ten minutes saved will be lost and take longer changing trains. More Tory propaganda. A groteque monstrosity of no value. Not enough passenger base. Scotland will be making loan repayments for it in the debt borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. More money borrowed and wasted, by the Westminster Unionists crooks to line their pockets.

    Train journeys in Scotland already take nearly twice as long, pro rata, because of years of total neglect by the Westminster unionist government. Taking £20Billion a year out of Scotland on totally mismanaged policies. The present rail system should be upgraded for through traffic, Not £Billions overspent on the catastrophe HS2. A total waste of public money. The Tories are slashing money on essential public services, sanction and starving vulnerable people to death to waste public money on this carbuncle, Hinkley Point, Heathrow and Trident. Just more Tory lies. Along with Brexit. Another catastrophe.

    Johnston lecturing the North Koreans who have no nuclear weapons. To demilitarise. Johnston dumps nuclear in Scotland, near one Scottish biggest Cities. Totally against the majority wishes and the public interest. The total hypocrite.

  372. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 9:17 pm:

    “Robert Peffers, I’m really not interested in your big long monologue about sectarianism through the ages.”

    Of course you are not because you are part of it every bit as much as the OO marchers.

    “… You don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to Irish history, as evidenced by your inability to see the difference between a civil war and a war between colonisers and the colonised”

    More utter pish, Joannie. One of my Grandparents, (who largely brought me up while my parents were away engaged in WWII) was a Reilly and RC the other was a Maguire. Both Irish born and one from each side of the sectarian divide.

    You couldn’t tell which are which genetically, as the population of Ireland is so mixed. Just about the only ones who can be clearly identified genetically are those from, “The Ascendancy”, for example George, (Gidion), Osborne, the heir apparent to two ancient Irish Baronetcies.

    The UK history is the Westminster incorrect version of their re-written History of Ireland to suit their sectarian views and the ones you are attempting to push here on Wings are one of the Republican incorrect re-written versions to suit their sectarian version. There are as many versions of Irish History as there are Irish Historians.

    The truth being that both rewritten versions are heavily sectarian biased to suit their own writer’s ends as your claims here show.

  373. Robert Peffers

    @Jamie says: 17 July, 2017 at 11:41 pm:

    “This legislation was a mistake by the SNP and it helps no one by criminalizing people for singing songs. It is very authoritarian and not progressive at all.”

    Utter Pish, Jamie, and you know it.

  374. joannie

    Firstly, Robert you have no right to accuse me of being sectarian. That’s a vicious accusation, based on nothing other than I disagreed with you on an internet blog. Get your ego under control and accept that you got it wrong. The Irish War of Independence was not a civil war, it was fought between Crown forces and those who wanted independence, and the fact that you couldn’t tell the difference between your grandfathers does not change that.

    You can stick that nonsense about there being as many Irish histories as historians too. Any country’s history is open to different interpretations, Ireland’s no more than anybody else’s. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t objective truths backed up by evidence about Irish history – you can’t just make it up as you go along.

  375. Liz g

    Jamie @ 2.28 & 2.27
    No song’s are banned….
    It’s just singing them at football that’s banned.

    Let’s stick with the passion thing for a bit!
    Being passionate and behaving with passion isn’t banned.
    But there are a fair few kinds of Passion that ye would get arrested for, depending on where ye expressed it.
    Ye hiv tae control yerself ye see.
    No matter how “passionate” you are feeling ,you can’t just give in to it…..and there are loads of law’s saying that.

    As for what I think is a genuine and fair question…..
    “What has this to do with law maker’s and people who don’t go to,or care about football”?
    Well Jamie, it’s the knock on effect of the heightened emotions,before, during and after the game.
    There are many of them,and that’s what impacts people like me,and there are loads of us!

    We pay attention as a society and have decided that the cost of putting up with this is too high.
    Some of us do care about freedom of speech and will see it protected,but these songs as I said aren’t banned at all.
    We as a society just don’t allow them to be used to taunt passionate people,at a time and place where they are vunerable to such emotions,any more.

  376. John H.

    Matt Frei on LBC this morning. “Is it worth all the cost (£56 billion) and upset (houses demolished) to run a train line the length of the country?” Since when did Manchester to London become the length of “the country”? Sometimes I despair of these people. They just don’t listen.

  377. Cal

    Crazycat 12.05

    Aye. I looked that one up about Germany. Seems they changed their laws in about 2000 so that German nationals can have two passports now BUT only if the other passport is of another EU country.

    re. Spain, it appears they allow dual nationality for everyone. But I’m sure I read that Scots living in Spain were in difficulty because the Spanish gov didn’t allow it???

    One more piece of information, Poland is another country that doesn’t allow their citizens to have two passports. That’s a biggie because of course many new Scots are from Poland….

  378. John H.

    Sorry. Matt Frei was referring to HS2 obviously.

  379. Robert Peffers

    @joannie says: 17 July, 2017 at 11:43 pm:

    ” … It seems even the BBC knows that Ireland isn’t British, no matter what they tell you.”

    Oops! Joannie, your sectarianism is showing again.

    The term, “British”, refers to, “The British Isles”. It is a group of islands in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Continental Europe. It includes Ireland, Great Britain, the Isle of Man, The Channel Islands, Shetland, Orkney, and thousands of smaller islands.

    What the Republic of Ireland, The Isle of Man and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey are not is parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

    What the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland are not is Britain. However, in both cases they are all British by the simple indisputable fact that they are all living on parts of the British Isles.

    It is nothing short of deliberate denial, hatred and sectarian bias to make the stupid claim that half of a country on the island of Ireland is not part of the British Isles a.k.a. Britain.

    You are so sectarian biased that you are alienating, a lifelong neutral, unbiased, supporter of all Ireland being returned to being one independent country.

    What I am not is sectarian and biased. In point of fact the sectarianism is what has held back Irish unification for decades. The IRA realised that years ago and have made great progress towards a united Ireland by peaceful means ever since.

    Those republicans who retain their sectarianism are no better than the biased sectarian unionists.

    If, as you curiously claim, you support Irish unification as a non-United Kingdom state. You do your cause harm by such sectarian claims.

  380. joannie

    Its a bit early for you to be drinking, isn’t it Robert? It can surely only be alcohol which prompts you to react to a harmless comment about the BBC iPlayer not being available in Ireland with such a ludicrous rant.

    Either that, or you’re such a narcissist that you’ve decided to stalk my every comment on here with false accusations of sectarianism just because I showed you up as wrong about something. Get over yourself.

  381. Ghillie

    Joannie, Robert, you must be exhausted. Take a break.

    It’ll all look better in the morning…ahhemm

    ( Mind you, you are a rare wee distraction from the usual Gish Gallopers )

    Peace and Love = )

  382. joannie

    I’m only up and drinking my first cup of coffee Ghillie, so I’m only getting started. I think Robert may have been up all night with a bottle of Irish whiskey though.

  383. Dan Huil

    Good god. Now we have more sycophantic britnat reporting of the “royals” in Poland as if they are representative of us all. This is how weak britnat Westminster’s position is if they are depending on the witless Windsors to get them through brexit.

  384. Jock McDonnell

    Re OBFA
    Let’s not forget this act was in response to events at a particular football match in the run up to the 2011 election, some people & officials said the situation regarding conduct by certain groups of supporters had gone too far and politicians had to act. It was claimed existing laws were not working. They asked for a meeting with the First Minister.

    On a different subject, no matter how complex & ugly the situation in the north of Ireland has been, if for example, they found oil off the Antrim coast, do you think either side would allow Westminster to get its hands on it?

  385. Dorothy Devine

    just been reading through and wonder when we began having slagging off sessions of the stupid playground variety.

    Disruptions by persons not known?

  386. Robert Peffers

    @yesindyref2 says: 17 July, 2017 at 11:48 pm:

    ” If you ever find youself in a pub in Carrigtwohill please pretty please just tell them you’re a lifelong supporter of Scottish Independence, you’ll have a great time.”

    Your like Joannie, yesindyref2, not only do you share her sectarian bias and no doubt you both deny it but you imagine I zip up the back.

    Do you share her idiotic belief that the southern part of the entire island of Ireland is NOT part of Britain?

    That belief is a sectarian belief and the entire island of Ireland is British. i.e. part of the British Isles as are the channel Island Bailiwicks, Isle of Man and Great Britain.

    What these all are is British. What they all are not is parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and what the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is not is all of Britain.

    Note that since the IRA realised their violence and sectarianism were counter productive their cause has taken great strides forward.

    Irish unification is closer now than it has ever been in my lifetime. The hate and sectarianism is equally evil on both sides and those bigots on the republican side are no better than their OO counterparts. Trouble is they think they are and continue their sectarian bias.

  387. Peter McCulloch

    If we are to believe the headline to that article in the Sunday Mail that Bigotry can be beaten without laws.

    Then by that same logic and principle then all crimes can be defeated without the need for laws, so shouldn’t all laws be abolished then?

  388. Robert Peffers

    @Brian Doonthetoon says: 18 July, 2017 at 12:04 am:

    “Hi Robert Peffers.
    I addressed a post to you earlier this evening re the Dundee professional football teams.
    You have not responded. This has happened in the past, re a post by me addressed to you, where I correct you.”

    Hi, Brian Doonthetoon,

    I’m sorry if I missed your comment. I assure you it was not a deliberate omission on my part. If you note the times of my posts you will see that I’m forever playing catch-up and attempting to keep up with conversation as they happen.

    It is only too easy to miss out chunks of replies. For example I’m replying to this between getting showered and going out so I’m about to miss out another chunk of the conversation when I come back home and again having to catch up yet again.

  389. yesindyref2

    @Breeks: “We did not vote away our sovereignty in 2014, we voted to remain in a state of constitutional denial that we are a sovereign people. We chose to remain blinkered and to not see the truth.

    Actually we not only did NOT vote away our sovereignty in 2014, we exercised it in a referenum of the People, and we totally reaffirmed it as a People. 55% did NOT deny that we are a sovereign people, they reaffirmed we are a sovereign people, so the vote reaffirming the sovereignty of the Scottish people was 100% with an 86.5% turnout (or whatever it is).

    The decision by a majority of the Sovereign People of Scotland was to stay in a partnership with the rest of the UK, but with no time limit, no time period specified. Not forever, not for 50 years, 20 years, or even 2 years.

    Simple as that. It has looking at it, reaffirmed the Sovereignty of the Scottish People.

  390. yesindyref2

    @Robert Peffers
    If you have any dececncy as a human being, you should withdraw this remark to joannie immediately, and profusely apologise to her:

    Of course you are not because you are part of it every bit as much as the OO marchers

    You’re a disgrace, and THAT comment of yours is defamation, as is the later accusation of her being sectarian:

    Oops! Joannie, your sectarianism is showing again.

  391. yesindyref2

    @Robert Peffers: “Your like Joannie, yesindyref2, not only do you share her sectarian bias and no doubt you both deny it but you imagine I zip up the back.

    I will seriously consider taking action for defamation against you, unless you withdraw and apologise immediately.

    This is a formal warning.

  392. Jockanese Wind Talker

    On the Dual Nationality thing @Cal says @18 July, 2017 at 8:54 am.

    Why would any EU National now want UK Citizenship?

    EU offers more security and prospects than being a citizen of a soon to be 3rd World Economy Country.

    On the Polish Citizenship bit:

    “Poland is another country that doesn’t allow their citizens to have two passports. That’s a biggie because of course many new Scots are from Poland….

    You are technically correct, however:

    “Polish law does not explicitly allow dual citizenship, but possession of another citizenship is tolerated since there are no penalties for its possession alone. However, penalties do exist for exercising foreign citizenship, such as identifying oneself to Polish authorities using a foreign identification document.”

    Basically you can have dual nationality as a Pole but if you are entering/leaving Poland or presenting your ID to the authorities you have to use your Polish Passport.

    I can’t see a Pole (or any other EU National) wanting to pay for travel visas and standing in the long queue at customs for the ‘privilege’ of using a British Blue Passport when they can breeze through as UK Citizens currently can on an Polish EU Passport.

    If the other EU Nations now go down the Dutch route as per @Cal says, 17 July, 2017 at 11:32 pm

    “Dutch PM announced today that there would be no change to government policy on dual nationality for Dutch citizens i.e. it’s not possible to hold two nationalities at the same time.”

    UK will lose out via an exodus of EU Citizens who are filling vital posts (agricultural and food processing industry, NHS etc.) but more importantly they are TAX PAYERS (both directly via income tax and indirectly via VAT etc.)

    It really is about time HM Gov started to switch on to the fact that ‘this Brexit shit is real’.

    Where is the Chancellor of the Exchequer going to make up this taxation short fall??

    Mix this loss of tax revenues into the Hyper Inflation Quantities Easing Program, the likely potential for WTO Tariffs, a 20%-30% increase in basic household shopping bills and the forecasted food shortages due to the UKs dependence on imports and we have a ‘Great Depression’ Economic Crash just round the corner.

    Just don’t expect to hear about it in/on the UKOK MSM and BBC.

  393. Dr Jim

    I’ve always thought of Britain as geography and British as the Inglish getting confused over what’s a Nationality, and anyway when did the Inglish decide we were all British instead of the birthplace Nationalities we already had

    I rather enjoy scoring through the “British” for Nationality bit on forms and writing Scottish although local councils for some reason get annoyed about this and over the years have had forms coming back to me telling me I had defaced them whereas I tend to think they misrepresent everybody by telling them what they want them to be and thou shalt not question (Naughty)

    If different gender folk can identify as to who they are what’s the problem with folk choosing their Nationality as they see fit and this is where the creepy Brit bit comes in isn’t it

    Just keep telling folk they’re a thing until they give up railing against it and accept the Brainwash
    Well NO brothers and sisters in my book you are who you say you are and not who the Britnat bullies say you are

    Looking forward to my Scottish passport if I live that long and I’m sure many Welsh and Northern Irish folk would like the same
    Those who identify with British Imperialism should have what they want too, but of course they wont get it they’ll get Inglish imperialism with a wee reference on the corner to the under classes of wannabees

  394. David P

    Re Ireland and the British Isles, If I were to suggest to my Irish in-laws that the island of Ireland was part of the British Isles, I’d get turfed out of the house.

    And in reply to a comment about Ireland being is much better position because it is an independent nation, I received the reply: ‘not all of it!’

  395. Petra

    Well it’s forecast to be a beautiful day across Ireland and Scotland. Let’s all enjoy it. If I were you Joannie I’d ignore ‘sectarian’ comments because we know it’s not true just as most of us, if not all, know exactly what went on, the hell, over the centuries / is going on in Ireland currently. Just as most of us on here and the SG are totally conversant with Scottish sovereignty. The phrase ‘let go and let God …’ comes to mind or even just agree to disagree.

    Agree to disagree … the Blue Collars.

    Wipe the shit of your trainers
    Because we had a rough night last night
    And this, I can tell by the look on your face
    And you can mark my words
    Yes I can tell from your face that we had a rough night
    Well I’m hoping that your barks just as big as your bite
    And this I can tell you, and you can mark my words
    You can mark my words x4

    So why dont you come with us, into a past time
    The last time we spoke I think you crossed the line
    I think you’ll have to, Agree to Disagree this time
    So why dont you come with us

    I’m getting so sick and tired of the confrontation
    Whenever I’m with you I’m under instigation
    And this I can tell you, and you can mark my words
    Yes I’m getting sick and tired of your testosterone
    If you carry on this way you’ll end up on your own
    And this I can tell you, and you can mark my words
    And you can mark my words So why dont you come with us, into a past time

    The last time we spoke I think you crossed the line
    I think you’ll have to, Agree to Disagree this time
    So why dont you come with us.’


    @ Jock McDonnell says at 9:20 am …. ”On a different subject, no matter how complex & ugly the situation in the north of Ireland has been, if for example, they found oil off the Antrim coast, do you think either side would allow Westminster to get its hands on it?”

    We never hear too much about it Jock but there’s a number of articles online to the effect that there is oil off of the coast of Ireland.


    Check out Prof Robertson’s site for some positive news:

    Scotland’s hotels a better investment than those in England or Europe: SNP Administration works?

    ‘…..Visitors to Scotland’s historic sites surge by 470,000 to reach more than 4.5 million, breaking all records, in only 11 months!….’


    ‘Dramatic growth in Scottish fish and shellfish farming output. More evidence we can thrive…..’


    ‘University of Dundee awarded £7 million to work in partnership with India to fight diabetes.’

    ‘Dundee University has world-leading expertise in this field and will be working with records of over 400 000 diabetic patients in India to try to understand more about the disease and hopefully contribute to treatment. See this from the University website:……’


    ‘Tourists from North America flooding to Scotland in ever increasing numbers.’…………..


    Scotsman headline is untrue: hate offences against Jews in Scotland are extremely rare by contrast with the rest of the UK?

    ‘This was the Scotsman headline yesterday:

    ‘Hate offences against Jews in Scotland reach worst level on record.’ Now read the article in full and you’ll see that ‘Hate offences against Jews in the UK reach worst level on record’ would be accurate but there is absolutely no evidence of such a spike in Scotland presented anywhere in the piece. The headline is either stupid or a lie. First-of-all, for the UK as-a-whole, see this:……..’

  396. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Quantities Easing = Quantitative Easing

  397. David P

    Contrast the Irish view of Ireland vis-a-vis the British Isles with the English Establishment view, as seen on a road map from about 2010

    “AA road map of Great Britain”

    “includes Ireland”

    shakes head in disbelief

  398. joannie

    Thanks Petra and yesindyref2. It was an ugly accusation and made purely out of spite because he was shown to be wrong about something. Hopefully he’s gone to sleep it off somewhere.

  399. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Well then @ Peter McCulloch says at 9:26 am

    “If we are to believe the headline to that article in the Sunday Mail that Bigotry can be beaten without laws.
    Then by that same logic and principle then all crimes can be defeated without the need for laws, so shouldn’t all laws be abolished then?”

    Anarchy in the UKOK?

    I’d be prepared to bet on it once the masses realise they have been led down the garden path by ‘The establishment’ and its Lackeys in the Media.

    Remember London’s riots not that long ago, I suspect it will be like that on a larger scale.

    Also remember those pictures and VT of London’s additional Paramilitary looking Anti Terror Police not that long ago?

    Pound to a penny says they are there to protect the usual suspects in their gated communities from the eventual public backlash rather than protect the public from terrorists.

  400. Petra

    @ Dr Jim says at 10:18 am ….”… Looking forward to my Scottish passport if I live that long and I’m sure many Welsh and Northern Irish folk would like the same. Those who identify with British Imperialism should have what they want too, but of course they wont get it they’ll get Inglish imperialism with a wee reference on the corner to the under classes of wannabees.”

    I’m looking forward to getting mine too Dr Jim. My passport expires next March and I’m not renewing it. I’ll wait to get my hands on a Scottish passport as it wont be too long in coming.


    Looks as though the Tory party is imploding between one thing and another, LOL.

    ‘Vote Leave campaign boss: David Davis is thick as mince, lazy as a toad and vain as Narcissus.’

    ‘The former head of the Vote Leave campaign has branded David Davis “thick as mince”, as he warned that a provision in the Brexit Secretary’s so-called Great Repeal Bill would allow ministers to cave in to EU demands at the last minute.

    The Twitter outburst by campaign director Dominic Cummings reflects continuing rancour between different wings of the Brexit movement, which saw intense infighting at the time of last year’s EU referendum.

    It comes after Cummings admitted there was a chance that leaving the EU would turn out to be an “error” and described government members who thought the UK should leave the European atomic energy community Euratom as “morons”……..’



    Said: “Actually we not only did NOT vote away our sovereignty in 2014, we exercised it in a referendum of the People, and we totally reaffirmed it”.

    Absolutely correct.


    To all Wingers:

    Don’t blame the electorate for voting NO.

    Accept it was a mistake to make it a single question on independence.
    The Scot Govt should have insisted on the Home Rule question too.

    If there’a another indyref. It would be foolish to accept it’s one question again – decided by the UK Govt.

    We are supposed to be in a democracy. Is that a democratic choice: take it or leave it? ( Indy v Union).

    People should be allowed to state their preferences:

    Full indy, Scottish Parliament has final say on what powers Scottish Parliament has for Scotland within the Union, Westminster has final say on what powers the Scottish Parliament has within the Union.

    That way if the majority prefer indy, they can choose it. If the majority prefer Scottish sovereignty within the Union they can choose it and Westminster devotees can choose that as their preference.

    Using STV, the lowest rated choice eliminated. Second votes redistributed until a winner is reached.


    I would vote: 1 full indy 2 Scottish Parliament has final say ( on powers for SP and final say on legislation where it affects Scotland – in effect putting LCM or Sewell into Law, not a convention.). 3. Westminster has final say – the status quo.

    I think most pro-indy people would too. So, if most people are convinced of indy, we become indy. If like last time, most people aren’t convinced the time is right, they might choose 2.

    If 3 wins, well, it’s the same as a NO vote in 2014.


    If people don’t have enough intelligence to figure that out, then they don’t have enough intelligence to figure out whether Scotland should by indy or not, so I don’t accept we need to make it as simple as possible.


    The problem I do see with it is, WM won’t agree, as they will probably refuse an indyref and would definitely refuse one that is likely to weaken WM power over Scotland one way or another, because if either 1 or 2 are the winner, the Union as we know it is dead.


    Fact: The Scottish Govt wanted a multiple choice referendum.

    Proof and interesting web page on Sewell Convention and Barnett Formula:

  402. yesindyref2

    No worries, and now he’s done the same to me.

    But I’ll follow your gracious example and forgive him for the defamation. He really isn’t worth the sweat off my brow.

  403. ScottishPsyche

    O/T The spat concerning Cat Boyd, Angela Haggerty, and the RISE tribe is rumbling on. Of course, this was going to happen – the influx of people from the Left seeking to make the SNP in their own image was doomed to failure. Their disappointment is manifested in anger that a group they joined or voted for didn’t change quickly enough to accommodate them.

    Cat Boyd and many like her see Indy only as a means to a more Socialist government, not in the wider sense that Scotland should be allowed to govern itself according to what its population wants.

    If for example, Jeremy Corbyn was elected with English votes, but there was – horror of horrors – a Tory majority in Scotland, would she be quite happy to remain in the UK? I think we know the answer to that.

    Independence is only desirable to some if the resulting government reflects their own political viewpoint. That there would again be a democratic deficit would be dismissed with ‘for the many not the few’. I think we are seeing who those people are more clearly now.

  404. Desimond

    @robert peffers

    Im intrigued by this British isles thing…you often go way back in history to tell us the true Scots perspective of right and wrong.

    What was Ireland, the large rock in the ocean, before some external army found it..un-named and lonely?

    btw…i see Wiki has some thoughts:

    The term British Isles is controversial in Ireland,[7][15] where there are objections to its usage due to the association of the word British with Ireland.[16] The Government of Ireland does not recognise or use the term[17] and its embassy in London discourages its use.[18] As a result, Britain and Ireland is used as an alternative description,[16][19][20] and Atlantic Archipelago has had limited use among a minority in academia,[21][22][23][24] while British Isles is still commonly employed.[19] Within them, they are also sometimes referred to as these islands.

  405. Breeks

    yesindyref2 says:
    18 July, 2017 at 9:58 am

    “….The decision by a majority of the Sovereign People of Scotland was to stay in a partnership with the rest of the UK, but with no time limit, no time period specified. Not forever, not for 50 years, 20 years, or even 2 years.

    Simple as that. It has looking at it, reaffirmed the Sovereignty of the Scottish People….”


    It was the sovereign decision of the people to remain in the Union. But it did not address the conundrum of Scottish sovereignty being seconded to Westminster.

    Said it before, but the Act of Union is an unenforceable contract, because it cannot deliver what it professes to; to join the top down divine Sovereignty of England with the bottom up popular civic sovereignty of Scotland. You can marry a couple and join them in wedlock, but you cannot merge them into one person.

    It is precisely because we steadfastly ignore the unenforceable nature of the contract of Union that we end up with the counterintuitive nonsense of a sovereign people lending their sovereign decision to be something less than sovereign, in a Union which cannot actually function if it respects their sovereignty. All the roads are cul de sacs, and the nonsense is impenetrable.

    Bamboozled? Good. The Union is working precisely as intended. Let’s all rush to have a referendum on something else we don’t fully understand!!!

    Alternatively, let us deconstruct the constitutional dogs breakfast which blights modern day Scotland, and start again from a point of in time of known origin or undisputed constitutional status, and rebuild a modern constitution, one step at a time, building one recognised legitimacy upon another recognised legitimacy, and set to one side all the repressive artificially created conventions which corrupt our constitutional purity.

    The 1320 Declaration of Arbroath and 1328 Treaty of Edinburgh/Northampton combined to formally create and properly document the internationally recognised and undisputed sovereign nation of Scotland, with the irregular and distinct constitutional anomaly of a popular civic sovereignty enshrined upon its people, and for all time. I respectfully suggest this juncture as our datum and starting point, and work forward from there, tracing the provenance of our inalienable sovereignty down through the ages until modern times, and up to the very minute.

    There is nothing inconsistent, no lack of closure, nor leap of faith required to define and properly understand every article of Scotland’s sovereign constitution.

    The Act of Union however is a Heath Robinson contraption of a device, full of ambiguity, conundrum and suspension of reason, which professes to do that which cannot be done, and has its origins shrouded in corruption, bribery, intimidation, coercion, exceeded authority, and complete lack of democratic accountability. It is a sham from start to finish that the Act of Union is respected as a piece of legislation superior and ascendant over the clear, incontrovertible, indisputable and constitutionally robust articles of Scottish sovereignty.

    After a narrow and contrived fashion, the Union does work in circumstances where there is no conflict between the expressed sovereign will of Scotland and the wider UK parliamentary sovereignty, because both sovereign entities have their sovereign expression respected. The incontrovertible problem arises when the sovereign will of Scotland lies at odds with the sovereign will of the UK parliament, just as it does over Brexit. The UK has NO SOVEREIGN MANDATE to overrule Scottish sovereignty. The UK has NO SOVEREIGN MANDATE to remove Scotland from Europe.

    Westminster simply has no authority to overrule the sovereign people of Scotland. All they can do is con us that they do, and reinforce the propaganda and deceptions which have bound Scotland to the will of Westminster for three inglorious centuries. No Nation in the world has been so thoroughly duped for so long as the Nation of Scotland, and even now, we have only ourselves to blame.

    What will the ScotRef question be? Should Scotland be an independent country? Or shouldn’t the “NO” option be that we just ratify the inalienable permanence of our sovereign birthright, and force the repeal of the 1707 Act of Union in lieu of a Confederal Union between two Sovereign nations?

    Just sort the constitutional anomalies, and sovereign Independence will deliver itself, and fall into our laps. What we actually do with it is where democracy plays its part. FFS can’t we at least get the chronology correct?

  406. Andy-B

    So Boyd Tunnock is to make his products more British by wrapping them up in the Butchers Apron.

    I don’t buy any Tunnocks products, and never will, Lidel produces similar products which are just as nice, and half the price.

    Has anyone else noticed the persistent jingoism/propaganda packaging of late all covered in the Butchers Apron.

    Also we are smothered in a plethora of “British” movies of late Dunkirk, two Churchill films, and I think theres still one or two in the pipeline still to come.

    It’s as if we’re being coerced by the media into feeing good about Britain, just before it falls off a Brexit cliff dragging Scotland with it.

  407. Graf Midgehunter

    @ Joannie

    🙂 🙂 🙂 Enjoy yer cuppa.

    @ Robert Peffers

    If say 20 thousand Scots say enough is enough and decide to take up guerilla warfare against the UK State with the aim of Independence for Scotland.
    Damage to the country is caused and Indy Scots kill Unionist Scots. Unionist Scots retaliate with all their means.

    Is this a war of Independence or a civil war?


  408. Dr Jim

    The oil price falls and Scotlands a basket case, but wait, the oil price falls and saves the Bank of England and inflation figures for the “UK”

    Kinda proves the theory that Scotland has never had any oil at all, if it’s up Scotlands good, except it will fall at any moment and that’s bad, if it’s down Mark Carneys job is safe

    Other countries don’t seem to have the same problem with their good oil, we’re just stuck with the useless kind of oil and every time they’ve told us that since it was discovered I’ve definitely believed it (sarcasm)

    Well all the Unionists say they’re right and us real Scottish folk are all fantasists who don’t understand anything at all apparently

    I guess I’m just simple minded eh

  409. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Aye @Andy-B says at 11:22 am the insidious Brit Nat Propaganda is everywhere and has been ramped up since 2012.

    Been commented on here a few times.

    TV ‘The Great British …..’, ‘Britain’s Got…’ etc.

    Butchers Aprons on Produce (including those of Scottish origin).

    British Whisky, British Haggis etc. etc.

    All part of the ‘One Nation’ Brain Washing campaign.

    Leave them on the shelf, Aldi for one has Saltires on their Scottish Products and heavily promote them.

    As for the current Brexit Jingoism of the ‘Spirit of Dunkirk’ I only have one thing to say:

    “Remember the HD at St Valery”

    Without their sacrifice (by The UK Govt of the time) very few if any would have got off the beaches.

    And the 52nd Lowland were to be sacrificed in the same way in the South of France.

    Churchill’s version of Boris Johnston’s a Pound spent in Croydon is worth more than a pound spent Strathclyde.

    Scotland and it’s people have always been viewed as lesser and expendable (look at our people, land, infrastructure and industry over the years since 1707).

    That’s why there were no “Thankful Villages” in Scotland after WWI.

    In fact a wee graffiti campaign for “Remember the HD at St Valery” on the Dunkirk film posters might be in order. (Majority text in blue with HD in red obviously).


  410. Ken500

    The Japanese like tartan, Scotland and all things Scottish more than they like flags.

    Scottish Oil sector illegally taxed at 40% since Jan 2016 by the Westminster Treasury. It was taxed at 62% when the price per barrel had dropped 75% by the Westminster Treasury. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. US fracked Gas is being imported.

    Mad Cow came from Alabama. Lack of testing. Typhoid from Argentina. Costing £Billions of public money. Hepatitis in untested US blood products. Deaths.

  411. Robert J. Sutherland

    Jockanese Wind Talker at 11:39:

    “Without their [HD] sacrifice … very few if any would have got off the beaches.”

    Err, no. A sacrifice it undoubtedly was, but (as I mentioned in an earlier posting), it had nothing to do with the defence of the Dunkirk perimeter. The Highland Division were fighting further south, with the main body of the French Army.

    I do like your idea about the posters, though…

  412. Ken500

    The ‘Left’ support a Party of illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. That caused the migration crisis in Europe. £Trns of debt. They expect to be taken seriously? They say they support Independence. Some people never learn. The policies and promises Corbyn offered are already in place in Scotland. Not false promises and Brexit.

  413. Robbo

    Not sure if this OBFA act covers mindless violence or not or if it can help? Not all the thuggery that has invaded our way of life is down to bigotry.

    I was seconds away from the mindless violence on friday night in Ayr where AYR and Killie fans ran riot on my main two streets- High street and Sandgate.
    Just as I came out of the pub on Sandgate after watching Celtic v Linfield around 30-40 fans dressed for the fight as they do(no colours, no singing, dressed in usual designer gear were marching stridaly into this meet.Just a determination on their faces that they were out to meet for a fight, prearranged as always. They passed me by-thank fuck(I darn’t say a word ,seconds later you see the start

    Sickening photos of two guys barely conscious being kicked to oblivion.

    The four looking across at bottom of picture were obviously looking at the 30-40 that had just past me. Thank the big man up stairs i had walked the other way for my taxi.

    There is no bigotry attached with this,just that they come from two different mid size towns on the West coast of Scotland!!!

  414. Robert J. Sutherland

    me @ 11:54,

    Or maybe what we need is a rash of “Dunkirk? Remember St. Valery” stickers. It might get a lot of people looking it up, because far too many still don’t have an inkling about it.

    “Know your history” and all that…

  415. ScottishPsyche


    Who is more Left and who is more radical are futile arguments that Cat Boyd et al can use to deflect from their hypocrisy.

    There is nothing more radical than trying to gain independence for your country from the establishment.When you choose to join that establishment as a commentator or to vote for the parties of the establishment (the Union) you cease to have any credibility as an independence spokesperson.

  416. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Thanks @Robert J. Sutherland says at 11:54 am, I stand corrected re: the rear-guard action at St Valery.

  417. Dave McEwan Hill

    The remaining sectarianism in Scotland is a reflection of Irish events and the interference in Ireland of the English/British. Both communities in NI are victims of this history and the frantic intolerance of the NI unionists represent their fear that they are losing everything and have nowhere to go. The British who used them for a century and a half would probably be happy to be rid of them but they are useful at the moment and are being used again.

    The lazy assumption that “both sides are as bad as each other” in the sectarian stakes doesn’t bear close examination. In NI you have the descendants of a native (and Catholic) population who saw their ancestral lands and homes taken off them and given to servants of the British state, most of them Scottish(and Protestant). They won’t lie down till they get payback.

    In Scotland nearly half a million poor Irish immigrants arrived during the famines of 1848 to 1852, Catholic and uneducated in the main and got absorbed as cheap labour in the red hot industrial magnificence in mostly west central Scotland. They were looked down on but things got hot during the depression in the 20s as jobs became scarce. The generous 1918 Education Act saw the Catholic schools set up by Catholic parishes absorbed into the government funded Scottish Education System and this is a totemic issue with a huge community in Central Scotland to this day.

    What has happened interim is that the quiet timidity of the first earlier generations of Irish stock into Scotland of my father’s day who kept their heads down in the face of almost intolerable intolerance and the assumptive arrogance of some of us Scots to them was steadily replaced by the succeeding generations,secure now in their communities, by a furious defensive reaction and the bigots found they had produced other bigots to face up to. Thus we produced sectarianism.
    The assumptive arrogance lives on in the Billy Boys and the like

    The same process is going on to an extent the in Scottish Asian community today who have no intention of putting up with the casual racism and condescension their fathers quietly put up with.

  418. Scot Finlayson

    Was it not,Scotsman,Patrick that brought Christianity to Ireland, (400AD ish),

    so how come they say,Irishman,Columba brought Christianity to Scotland (600AD ish).

  419. Graf Midgehunter

    @ Dr Jim

    “I rather enjoy scoring through the “British” for Nationality bit on forms and writing Scottish although local councils for some reason get annoyed about this and over the years have had forms coming back to me telling me I had defaced them whereas I tend to think they misrepresent everybody by telling them what they want them to be and thou shalt not question (Naughty)”
    When I first went to Germany in summer 1971 I had to get my UK driving licence converted to a German one.

    On the application form I wrote for birthplace, Scotland and naionality, Scottish.
    This was before the UK joined the EEC-(EU) in 1973 and everyone on the Continent thought England meant the UK.

    It was accepted..!

    Since then I’ve been romping around the world with a UK passport and a German car licence (hire-cars etc) with Scottish nationality. 🙂

  420. Jockanese Wind Talker


    Anyone else receive an Electoral Registration Form today?

    Got one asking to update who is eligible to vote, filled out one prior to Local Election and GE if memory serves correct.

    Current Odds of 5/1 for next UK GE being held in 2017 now looking worth a punt.


    Rev Stu, I know your well entitled to a break for as long as you wish or need.

    But the BAIRNS are getting restless and self harming through boredom!!

    Its getting way too personal remember its the TORY WAY!!

    Drive in the wedge, then the divide and conquer is provided for them from within.

    Come on boys and girls don’t lose sight of the GOAL!!

    The Tory Brexit shamble, which is unfolding before our very eyes, is about to give us the greatest opportunity, which we thought we had lost in 2014, to secure our independent freedom as The Scottish nation since before anybody on here was alive.

    So lets all pull together as YES for an Independent Scotland.

    The party politics and points scoring is for after we have gained our FREEDOM!

  422. Liz g

    Threating another winger,unless they comply…
    Not cool not cool at all.
    Glad you saw sense
    Even Jamie’s passion was classier than that.

    As I understand it..we are supposed to disagree and by all means forcefully, everything else should be dealt with by the rev.
    That’s mibbi where ye should have complained eh?

  423. joannie

    Accusing other people of sectarianism is not cool, Liz g. He had to expect some comeback for making such an ugly and false accusation against two other people here.

    Anyway, tis done now and the conversation has moved on. I fully agree with the poster above who said Brexit and the shambles this government are making of it offers an opportunity.

  424. Brian Powell

    Scott Finlayson

    St Partrick came from Wales.

    On Christianity coming to Scotland, it did lead to the Clan chiefs deciding that women and children were considered non-combatants, first anywhere across Europe. Though it clearly didn’t always hold, and didn’t work everywhere! But a step forward of a kind.

  425. gus1940

    The BBC just can’t help it:-

    Last night’s University Challenge featured a team from Edinburgh University and as is usual at the start of the program Paxman read out a list of the university’s famous alumni.

    Guess What? – featured on the list was ‘The Scottish Conservative Party Leader our own beloved Col. Blimpruth

  426. Liz g

    Joannie @ 12.56
    I agree that he should expect some blow back Joannie,and ofcourse those comments shouldn’t stand.
    It just that to say apologize now or else, I might take you to court,is a bit of an overreaction.
    And no something I would have expected on a blog as robust as this.
    Firstly because we already have an instruction to contact the rev if we feel something is out of order.
    But mainly because,how can we talk freely with people who will run for lawyers?
    And how would you ever know that an apology not freely given was genuine?

    Anyhoo I no going to say more about it…glad that you feel it’s over too.
    And for what it’s worth (from a Scottish woman to an Irish woman )I AM really sorry that you were insulted.
    Buy my ye didny half give it back…well done Mrs.

  427. joannie

    Thanks Liz. 🙂

  428. HandandShrimp


    Some products have had a “by royal appointment” union flag on them for decades and those I can’t say bother me. Boyd Tunnock taking an iconic Scottish brand and making it “British” is just stupid. The likes of Morrisons which have rebranded almost everything with a Union flag is beyond the pale. On point of principle, I ceased buying their products so rebranded. On tea cakes…I try to watch the waist line anyway so they are not something I would ordinarily buy 🙂

  429. Jack Murphy


    One of the Signatories is Labour Baron George Robertson who threatened Scotland pre-independence Referendum that the result of a Yes would be “cataclysmic” for the world !

    BBC Scotland Politics.
    No other BBC site is touching this news. No surprise there.

  430. Capella

    @ Andy B – for a truly sickening example of Unionists cynically tugging the patriotic heartstrings, watch the Rob Shorthouse presentation on how BT won the referendum. 20 mins.

    At least watch the last few minutes where he plays the short film they made to persuade people to stick with good old Blighty for solidarity with all our plucky brothers and sisters. Sob.

  431. colin alexander


    As an alternative to attacking those with Left sympathies, how about the SNP listen to suggested policies by the Left and put some of them into practice?

    Not watered down, token versions of them.

    That way people on the Left don’t see the need to vote Corbyn Labour to get Left-wing policies, such as a pay differential cap on the highest paid.

    It’s nonsense to say that is outwith the Scot Govt powers. Dozens of quango and Scot Govt funded fat cat executives are receiving obscenely high salaries – and perks – while the Scot Govt has been pay capping the poorest publicly funded workers.

  432. Andy-B

    Just received my driving licence back from the DVLA. It was just a change of address that was needed. However on inspection of my licence, I see I have now got a great big bloody Butchers Apron on it.

    No Saltire in sight.

  433. crazycat

    @ Andy-B

    Should you so wish (I have no idea of the legal ramifications), you can obtain sheets of perfectly-sized saltire stickers from:

  434. Andy-B


    I watched the last five minutes, and all I can say is pass the sick bucket. There was no mention of the tanks in Freedom Sq. Were we all in it together then?

  435. Andy-B

    @Handshrimp, @Jockanese Wind Talker @Crazycat, thank you all for your comments. ?

  436. ScottishPsyche

    @Colin Alexander

    It is not an attack on Left sympathies though, it is asking how someone can reconcile Independence with voting SLab, a party who has personified stagnation.

    I feel in many areas the SNP should be more courageous but they walk a line between trying to gain consensus for Independence and bringing about social change with constraints. If your main aim is Independence and not Socialism, what do you do?

    Does Scotland want more radical ‘Left’ policies or not? The small ‘c’ conservatives who reside comfortably within the SNP and the floating voters who have been happy to put them into power may balk at that and move even more towards other parties with an SNP who moves ‘left’.

    However you may be right, maybe the SNP has to change their manifesto for the next election to find out what exactly Scotland wants because I don’t think it is clear just now.

    The problem is highlighted in Wales. Jeremy Corbyn may have what appears to be radical policies but there is no guarantee Scottish Labour would implement them if they were in power. So we are back to 10 years ago and Independence is even further away.

  437. colin Alexander


    Well, if you look at it from the perspective of how does the SNP attract voters, the SNP’s power base was not the Central Belt of what was traditionally Labour seats; Govan being the occasional exception.

    It was the East / North-East. But those areas voted against indy and voted in anti-indy Tory MPs.

    It’s been proved that those most willing to vote SNP and vote indy are to be found in the old Labour heartlands of Glasgow, West Dunbartonshire, Lanarkshire etc.

    In the GE the hard core Unionists voted Tory. I don’t see any point in trying to win over these voters.

    That leaves the SNP competing (mainly) with Labour for the non-hardline Unionist vote.

    I believe people went to the SNP because of the Labour Red Tory factor. Especially in Better Together / Project Fear. Labour voting with, having the same policies as, and campaigning with the Conservatives.

    SLab is still dominated by the Red Tories, but at UK level Mr Corbyn’s Labour is perceived as being more Left-wing than the SNP ( whether they actually are is another matter).

    The danger is that the SNP vote gets split between Labour and the SNP. That is again happening.

    I accept that devolution powers makes it more limited what the Scot Govt can achieve, but where they hold the purse strings or power, they could be doing more to promote higher standards of living at the lower end of the social/economic spectrum and do things like cap publicly funded salaries of the top earners.

  438. Rock


    “the Irish want to be British again”

    According to Robert Peffers, the Irish are and will aways be “British”.

    In real life, you will not find a single citizen and resident of the Republic of Ireland calling him/herself “British”.

    Truth Always.

    Robert Peffers (4th February – The Sirens),

    “The Irish, whether they like it or not, live in the British Isles and are thus British. If they choose to claim not to be British then, like you, they have conceded their right to be British to the United Kingdom.”



    They escaped from being “British” after a long and bloody struggle.

    Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?”

  439. Orri

    Seems there’s a world of difference between being British and british. In political and cultural terms British is another word for a minority of Britons mainly from South East England but with adherents around the UK. In other circumstances that might be quaint but given the tendency towards cultural superiority and dominance that seem a keystone of being British even conceding that you might be referred to as being british is a no go for some.

    To insist that not only are you an authority on your own history but also that of another nation is crass to say the least. To compound it by missing the difference capitalisation makes and pressing on regardless insisting that perfectly valid protests are the result of sectarian bias is either ignorance, arrogance or both.

  440. Haggis Hunter

    Every sectarian bigot I’ve come across I’ve found to be thick, hate filled and usually pisht.

    They are sheep falling for the bait offered up by the British state.

    If only they knew the real history.

    Divide and rule enabled the Brits to get their empire.

  441. yesindyref2

    I’ve bookmarked your posting, and will come back to it, or similar, in some other thread when you post. Yes, there’s a lot to think about, and I agree about chronology. To an extent the Act of Union (singular, we don’t care about the English act of union with Scotland), is almost a red herring.

    First a wee comment, you said:

    It was the sovereign decision of the people to remain in the Union. But it did not address the conundrum of Scottish sovereignty being seconded to Westminster.

    No you’re right, it didn’t. But that’s a different level, and it’s not Scottish sovereignty as a people is seconded to Westminster, it’s the Parliamentary sovereignty.

    Which is a lower level in the hierarchy, because we the people of Scotland have the right to choose whatever government – or form of government – we want. We could, if we wanted, appoint Frankie Boyle to be the Great Scottish Dictator. It would be good for a laugh.

    Ultimately nobody can stop the people of Scotland having a referendum (the people, not the Scottish parliament), though it would have to be forced / tested through the courts.

    And here’s the interesting thing. When the UKSC made its ruling about Sewell, everybody thinks “oh it’s a disaster”.

    But why? All Sewell is, is a mechanism between the Parliaments of the UK and Scotland. So – so what, who cares? What the UKSC did do, however, is actually look at that chronology – and stay clear of it. And that chronology is about the sovereignty, the overlordhip for want of a better word, of the people OVER the parliament.

    Basically speaking the UKSC accepted the Claim of right 1689 and the English Bill of rights 1688, were still extant, or at least considerable, though there was muttering about some later act in 1707 or something.

    I see this as a parallel path to pursue, to the straightforward one of the SG’s proposed Indy Ref.

    Anyway, this is an interesting thing to pursue!

  442. Jamie

    All I know is that the Celtic Britons were doing just fine until those dastardly Anglo Saxons came along.

  443. yesindyref2

    One more thing I thought of. Scotland aleady does have a Constitution, that Claim of Right, a one clause Constitution, and it can’t be changed without the agreement of the people. This is a thought, not an assertion!

  444. Dave McEwan Hill

    Andy-B at 1.42 pm

    If you send me a stamped addressed envelope I’ll send you a wee Saltire designed to cover up the Butcher’s Apron of your driving licence.

    The Forward Shop 186 Argyll Street, Dunoon PA23 7HA

  445. Breeks


    “I see this as a parallel path to pursue, to the straightforward one of the SG’s proposed Indy Ref.Anyway, this is an interesting thing to pursue!…”

    Going rock solid firm on the issue of sovereignty is entirely compatible with everything the Scottish Government has said and done, and its a straightforward path to pursue.

    However, when you put a referendum as your primary goal before disentangling the issue of sovereignty, I fear you are telegraphing the fact you don’t quite grasp the significance of sovereignty. Democracy is not the key to it.

    Democracy, as in a referendum, cannot give us sovereignty nor can it take it away. We ARE sovereign.

    To repeat myself, the Act of Union is an unenforceable contract, and cannot reconcile Scottish sovereignty unless that sovereignty is subjugated, and if it can be subjugated then it isn’t sovereignty. The only reason the sovereign people of Scotland are voting to “give away” a sovereignty they cannot actually vote away is entirely due to the straightforward appreciation of the truth being displaced by the bullshit of the Union and 300 years of “convention”.

    We don’t need a referendum to terminate the Act of Union, because a contract that is unenforceable is not competent in law, and void. There is no democratic component to resolve, so what are you actually saying when you champion a referendum to sort the matter out?

    Disentangle the sovereignty issue, use that as a lever to force Scotland into a transitional state of “void” status; a constitutional no-mans-land, and conduct a plebiscite to choose our way out of constitutional stasis from a list of options which are all 100% compatible with Scotland’s sovereignty.

    It is the very incompatibility of Scottish popular sovereignty and English divine sovereignty which would debar the status quo state of Union from the list of options. The only option for an ongoing “united kingdom” would be a confederal option which respected Scotland’s sovereign integrity where the current Union does not.

    I am fully aware this approach to sovereignty would be a red rag to a bull to the media, but behind closed doors, a flat out constitutional dispute between Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May would leave May crippled and unable to unseat Scotlands assertion of sovereign control over our own fate. She would have to concede Scotland has a sovereign veto on Brexit, or pursue a policy she knows has no integrity and will not be recognised by Europe.

    This is not about breaking the Union, it is making the Union confront its own inadequacies and break itself. It cannot overrule Scottish sovereignty. We should compell it to try, and destroy it when it fails.

  446. yesindyref2

    The problem with sovereignty is exercising it. You and I on our own can’t exercise our sovereignty and say “OK then, the Union isn’t valid so it’s away, foreby, never existed, extinct”. Sovereignty is the People of Scotland, and the only way to define that is by a majority of all of us.

    Whether that’s a referendum, a signed document with a majority, or mass meetings all over Scotland with tellers to count, is a mechanism.

    No, it doesn’t need a referendum to end the Act of Union, but it needs something to prove the Will of the majority of the people of Scotland.

    My point about “parallel”, is that the S30 Order, referendum, is a parallel process, an additional way to get there, the mainstream way, the one that was tried in 2014, and the one that our current method of government pursue. It’s also one that has recognition of other world governments.

    We do, if we can organise it and get mass support for it, have another method. But it’s one that ultimately goes through courts, not just ours, but ultimately perhaps the ICJ / UN – a messy process.

  447. yesindyref2

    There is actually another method (probably others). Curiously this comes via a poster who was unpopular on Newsnet, posts on ther Herald intitials AS.

    And that’s a formal Constitution, which any of us could take to court if broken – broken by any government.

    That could be the easiest method of all, all the same. It would be adopted by, wait for it, a referendum.

  448. Breeks

    yesindyref2 says:
    19 July, 2017 at 9:35 am
    “There is actually another method (probably others). Curiously this comes via a poster who was unpopular on Newsnet, posts on ther Herald intitials AS.

    And that’s a formal Constitution, which any of us could take to court if broken – broken by any government.

    That could be the easiest method of all, all the same. It would be adopted by, wait for it, a referendum….”

    Easier still yesindyref2, why doesn’t our elected government hold their elected government to account over the intractable issue of Scottish sovereignty? If the Westminster government uses Brexit as the excuse to subjugate Scottish sovereignty and set aside the sovereign decision of Scottish people to stay in Europe, then why don’t we frame that argument as Westminster’s reckless and wilful dismantling of the Union, not Scotland’s reluctant defence of last resort?

    Put Westminster’s constitutional “certainty” to the test.

    Think also, this Great Repeal being promoted by the Tories; just imagine that Scotland’s ancient constitutional arguments suited their agenda not ours, and vindicated their position not ours, do you think for one minute that the Unionists would be humming and hawing about the antiquity of the documentation? Of course they wouldn’t. They’d be ramming it down our throats with our daily porridge.

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