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The power grab

Posted on July 15, 2017 by

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    230 to “The power grab”

    1. Street Andrew says:

      It looks capable of digging a big enough hole to accommodate a Tory cabinet.

      We can live in hope of that.

    2. Fred says:

      The Great Repeal Bill & Henry III, what a load of shite! Is Rees-Mogg writing the script?

    3. Luigi says:

      Methinks the tracks are going to come flying off that baby. 🙂

      With an incompetent driver, it may happen even sooner than expected. 🙂

    4. T.roz says:

      Grab then bury, that’s a big machine, probably a 22 tonner. With an inexperienced operator, it will definitely leave a messy job.

    5. Ghillie says:

      Chris. You have a gift = )

      Could you mibee print this out and pop it in the post to a few of our favourite folk please.

      Starting with Fuffily muddily, Kez, Colonel Ruth, the Teradactyle (sp?), a bunch of fishermen and some not so astute farmers etc.

      This is huge.

      But alot of folk are just not listening.

      Your pictionary may be the just the thing to deliver the message !!

    6. Ken500 says:

      How much longer can this farce go on. Wasting £Billions of taxpayers money. £Trns of debt. Killing and maining vulnerable people and starving them to death. The Tories totally incompetents. They are complete useless ignoramouses. The muck up and the mess. How much longer can they stagger on trying to destroy the world economy. What a shower of incompetents. They will end up paying more for less. The unionist way. They are taking £Billions from Scotland which could be better spent. It is the unionist way. It will all end in tears. That’s for sure.

      Thank goodness for the (SNP) Gov standing up for Scotland.

    7. sassenach says:

      Ken500 says: “Thank goodness for the (SNP) Gov standing up for Scotland.”

      Careful now, you will wake up ‘COLIN’ (our resident pet troll) to explain (again!!) why you are so wrong.

    8. donald anderson says:

      When you are in a hole it is best not to keep on digging.

    9. David says:

      Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have only the one basic problem………….. We are all in a so called Union, but this is not a Union in the true sense of the word, we have england with hundreds of MPs who can never be outvoted at westminster by the other 3 countries MPs, that is not a Union of equals, or any form of democracy that i understand, that is basically a one state rules the rest type of Union
      Time we all got out of the whole farce, its been a bloody joke for centuries, but now its time to go Caesar! Gu snooker loopy!

    10. Robert Peffers says:

      Jings! Yon grab is nearly as big as Roothie’s moothie.

    11. heedtracker says:

      Its their Henry the Eighth clause/shyste, that’s really going to make it all happen for tory teamGB. That monster was one royal serial killer that didn’t think much of the Scots either, to put it mildly.

      Lovely irony though, a murderous medieval English king still has more say over Scotland than you and me, Scotland.

    12. Capella says:

      I think you’ve captured the Brexiteers’ subtlety and refinement to a T.

    13. galamcennalath says:

      They won’t get rid of Holyrood, because they need it. If there was no Holyrood then we would return to the old measure of mandate for Indy ie majority of MPs by FPTP. They wouldn’t dare risk that!

      So they will let us keep Holyrood, but we can expect devolution to be rolled back and Legislative Consent Motion powers strictly limited.

      We have to get out of this union, and soon.

      And yet, since, there are folks who think devolution could expand or some pseudo-federal system appear. Not a snowball in Hell’s chance. It’s Indy or put up with Tory WM misrule.

    14. Famous15 says:

      I proclaim that an Henryviii clause is the back door to dictatorship simpliciter. “Simples”

    15. heedtracker says:

      Seriously creepy beeb gimpery explains what it all means, without saying what it all means…teamGB’s a dictatorship.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/39443101/henry-viii-clauses-and-how-1539-compares-to-2017

      Henry VIII clauses are being used in the Repeal Bill to transfer EU laws back to the UK.
      It means ministers can make changes to bills without parliament having to vote on it.

      “Brexit can be likened to the break-up of England with Rome and the Catholic Church back in the 1500s.

      “This is all because of the notion of national sovereignty being supreme.”

      Neat test of English cultural domination, of its Scotland region, who was king or queen of Scotland, during the reign of the Henry VIII monster?

      99% Scots wont know.

    16. colin alexander says:

      Comment in response to Kevin McKenna article in today’s Herald:

      I agree there is nothing radical about the SNP. Middling, mediocre or mince would be better choices to describe them.

      However, anyone that say they believed the Tories’ GE campaign that the SNP stand for independence was either very naive or trying to kid people.

      The SNP are devolutionists. They number one goal is to win very limited power to administer devolution at Holyrood in a role subservient to WM.

      “Keep Scotland Strong At Westminster” was the SNP general election slogan. Kezia and Ruth couldn’t write a more pro-Unionist slogan if they tried.

      In 2015 the SNP ran with: a vote for the SNP is NOT a vote for independence. You can vote SNP knowing it’s not a vote for independence. ( That was the truth and still is.)

      All the SNP offer is mibbie an indyref. An indyref to keep us IN the EU – now delayed, so that Scotland would already be OUT. I don’t believe an indyref will happen at all.

      If we are gearing up for independence, why the summer relaunch of Holyrood devolution powers and re-jigging councils? Shouldn’t 100% effort be going into the YES campaign and preparation for indy?

      I see no point in having one anyway. We know indyref is a proven failure as a policy. It’s impossible to have a fair campaign with the BBC and the British state dominating the campaign. Spewing out their Project Fear bile of disinformation that makes it impossible for voters

      If the SNP want to be taken seriously as the party of independence, then they should stand for independence: a vote for the SNP IS a vote for independence.

      If the SNP win a Scottish Govt or GE election on that mandate – we declare independence. Simple as that. Of course they won’t. They won’t risk their lucrative Holyrood and WM salaries to free Scotland from WM domination.

      They’ve replaced Labour as the political class, those responsible for undermining Scottish sovereignty by complacency and capitulation to WM’s dominance. Labour did it with pretences of socialism and Home Rule. The SNP do it with their indyref policy.

      The SNP seats lost seats because people who believe in Scottish sovereignty – either within the Union – where Holyrood should have the final say on all matters affecting Scotland ( including returning EU powers or indeed Scotland’s membership of the EU and Single Market) or Scotttish sovereignty by independence, see that the SNP stand for neither.

      The SNP are subservient devolutionists, bought and sold for UK Govt gold or rather lucrative MSP and MP salaries as the party of middle of the road devolution.

    17. Golfnut says:

      Get a grip Colin. How an earth can Corbyn’s Labour with a manifesto lifted straight from the SNP be radical and the SNP are not. As for the rest, drivel.

    18. Valerie says:

      @galamcennalath

      You have covered it fully there. The plan to diminish Holyrood and remove Barnett, thus harnessing their richest region is well under way.

      @Colin Alexander

      FFS, how ridiculous are you

    19. heedtracker says:

      The SNP are subservient devolutionists, bought and sold for UK Govt gold or rather lucrative MSP and MP salaries as the party of middle of the road devolution.”

      Tis barely 2 years 6 months since Scots voted Naw Thanks Colin and its even less since SNP gained 50 out of 59 Scottish Westminster MP seats.

      We know that the BBC Scotland alone are even more determined than ever to get the SNP back down to their 6 SNP seat level of just 24 months ago, just like you Colin.

      Whether or not BBC Scotland really can get rid of the SNP remains to be seen but you yourself are a tad harsh on them Colin:D

    20. Stoker says:

      Chris, today’s toon could also be seen as digging their own graves. Thanks once again for another fine piece of political art.
      __________

      C’mon folks, help put a massive hole in our No1 enemy, the BBC. The more we can raise the more we can do and achieve. Every penny helps! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/monitoring-of-bbc-scotland-political-output#/

    21. Croompenstein says:

      They sure are digging a big hole Chris just hope we don’t get dragged in it. Perhaps we could shove that stane in the bit Colin Alexander in the hole 🙂

    22. Valerie says:

      What the limited intellect of the Colin Alexander collective don’t realise is most of us have read all this yoonion guff ad nuseum.

      Its not funny, not original and not clever.

    23. Donnywho says:

      O/T … ish Is it just me or is the film Dunkirk an allegory for everthing that is wrong about Great Britain today. We are leaving Europe with our tails between our legs. We are having to leave all our kit behind. We will leave the Scots behind but won’t give them credit or remember them. There is nothing that our troops, navy or airforce can do about it but scuttle back to blighty.

      This was then spun into a great victory, a triumph of British pluck and later the turning point of the war.

      But the phoenix promised for post Brexit will not come, just as Britain won the war (russia, colonies and america excluded) we forget that the British Empire died on those beaches.

      What grew in it’s stead was the “sick man of Europe” it was the reason we joined the EU… we coulden’t get our post colonial “common wealth” to work… unlike the common market.

      Why would it work now when we have ripped up all our post colonial treaties.

      To summarise it is a film of it’s time, it will boost the jingoism and create a feelgood factor, expect politicians to refer to the Dunkirk Spirit once again were we stood against the world and won.

      But it’s historical warnings are terrifying… that said I hope we Scots leave them behind.

      I would love to see the reel of the 51’st joined by the reeling Brexiteers.

    24. starlaw says:

      The rough wooing is about to re-commence. Should be interesting.

    25. galamcennalath says:

      At best so called UK democracy is damned thin, at worst a total shame. To be honest, I have always wondered why the EU accepted such a dubious democracy in their midst.

      – MPs can be elected with as little as 25% of the vote
      – Governments can achieve a majority with 35% of the vote
      – An unelected Remembrancer looks after London interests
      – The upper house is unelected
      – The parliament has reserved seats for clergy
      Etc etc

      The picture wasn’t good. IMO EU ‘interference’ in UK affairs brought improved rights, standards, regulations, and working conditions. All these important positive things are under threat.

      Now we have the Great Repeal Bill with its Harry the Eight powers,

      Democracy? What democracy?

    26. Macart says:

      Another keeper from Chris, though I can’t shake this image of a ‘smash and grab’ from popping into my head for some reason.

    27. galamcennalath says:

      This how it all began over 300 years ago …

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Security_1704

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Act_1705

      … did it really ever get any better?

    28. Robert Graham says:

      The Media will activly Aid & enable this deception we are about to witness , The Tory party with the connivance of labour, Corbyn as was Tony Benn are no friends of independence , all the unionist parties are the obstacle every one , it’s in the name “unionist”.
      The media will use the confusion that will occur during this brexit process as a convenient cover to disguise moves to completely neuter Holyrood .
      Every unionist party in our parliament have the same agenda ,obstruct confuse and daily distract our administration ,I would suggest the SNP for the most part ignore them for the time being and concentrate on the main problem , park all these frivolous FOI requests etc that are being used to gum up the works.
      Every move the SNP propose will be on Mayhems table ae soon as its spoken about , the Civil Service should be restricted in its access to SNP plans , even if this means setting up a separate office of trusted advisors and admin staff , even for typing sensitive documents ,Westminster must be kept at arms length .
      This is it its either Holyrood or Westminster, a simple choice .

    29. heedtracker says:

      Donnywho

      Dunkirk was a terrible defeat but it was effectively just one of many British Imperial defeats that had been going on since WW1, around the whole planet. After Dunkirk, the UK kept on losing, everywhere.

      WW2 should be called the End of the British Empire wars, the final one, nearly. Countries like Malaysia were still to suffer.

      One of the great frauds perpetrated by our imperial masters is that the UK won WW2. Other than not being invaded by the Nazi’s, its a spectacular lie.

      “History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.” Churchill.

      What was the first thing ever bought with the dumb tax money, or rather, what did our imperial masters decide to tell us, when they bought such nonsense, great British nonsense?

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/lottery-funds-16312m-churchill-sale-1617191.html

    30. Hamish100 says:

      No posters to show up Mundell Davidson with their fellow anglobrit scot shysters supporting their England brexit pals and Ulster Unionists

    31. Capella says:

      Interesting short piece of Scandinavian history – “How Swedes and Norwegians Broke the Power of the ‘1 Percent’” by George Lakey.

      Deals with the 1930s to present times but eerily describes UK now.

      “When Conservatives eventually tried a fling with neoliberal policies, the economy generated a bubble and headed for disaster. (Sound familiar?)

      Labor stepped in, seized the three largest banks, fired the top management, left the stockholders without a dime and refused to bail out any of the smaller banks. The well-purged Norwegian financial sector was not one of those countries that lurched into crisis in 2008; carefully regulated and much of it publicly owned, the sector was solid.”

      http://tinyurl.com/y9sutch2

    32. ronnie anderson says:

      When Wingers give oxygen to idiots they will breath deeply all the more to spout their shite, dont blame them for the shite they spout, blame Yourselves for even mentioning or commenting on they’re posts .

      Buy yourselves a wedgie board , you’ll never know what more demons you’s can let loose on this site .

      Great Toon Chris.

    33. Liz says:

      If Kevin McKenna is writing another SNP are useless article I wouldn’t know cos I’ve blocked him.

      He is no friend of indy and just another attention seeking time waster living off the backs of those who want this country to be free and independent

    34. Dr Jim says:

      They shout about something else to keep your mind off what they’re really up to

      A bit like Colins Trollin

    35. heedtracker says:

      ronnie anderson

      Now now Ronnie. Our Colin’s an existentialist Scots nat. He detests the SNP, everyone and everything SNP, but he’s also a passionate independentisteriser.

      Must be rather frustrating for the poor wee soul.

      I rather miss sensibledave these days.

    36. Ian McCubbin says:

      Colin Alexander has a very credible argument above. I am beginning to see that what he says May beginning to be the case.
      National investment bank voted through without much practical discussion at SNP spring conference. FM predicted another Tory government.
      Many of top SNP said 2015 56 MPs a once ever win never to be repeated.
      No big coming to together of Yes groups for Scotref.

      I for a year have also said like Colin, we have the mandate majority of MPs and MSPs representing Independnece. All other coutries that wanted self determination declare it after such a mandate.
      Why not Scotland? Yes they are in SNP professional politicians with salaries and maybe they are frightened of the real work for probably less salary in running an independent state.
      Let’s challenge them to just call it now. What are we waiting for.

    37. Valerie says:

      40 years of EU legislation, 25,000 Stat Instruments.

      Do you think for one minute the Tories will bring those to Parliament to discuss, debate and vote on keeping or amending?

      Apart from their abhorrence of democracy, they want nothing to do with raising standards. They are saying that leaving Euratom is no problem, because they will create UK standards for handling nuclear material.

      Wake up people, ffs. This govt can’t get fire regs correct, or fund police and fire to safe standards. They hope to sell the NHS to USA.

      I’ve never been this frankly terrified of where this is headed.

    38. heedtracker says:

      Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves, from Ireland:D

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40610573?SThisFB

      Barclays in talks to expand Dublin office post-Brexit

      Ich bin ein Dubliner. Dublin’s nice too. Beeb gimps keep saying the Irish want to be a region of greater England again, because of the close “links” but I have yet to hear anyone ever say that, in Ireland.

      Speaking of beeb gimpery and their UKOK “links.” If youre ever in Queenstown, Dublin, renamed lately by the not British Irish, Dún Laoghaire, there’s a butcher in Dún Laoghaire that makes the world greatest sausages, and I’m veggie.

      Jump on the Dart, just past Black Rock, the Dublin burb that gave the world one of the most loyal Brits ever invented, Sir Lord Bob Geldof OBE, VC, MBE, Phd, Rock and Roll.

    39. mike d says:

      Aye lord bob geldof,another a*****le who told Scotland we would be better together.

    40. heedtracker says:

      I for a year have also said like Colin, we have the mandate majority of MPs and MSPs representing Independnece. All other coutries that wanted self determination declare it after such a mandate.
      Why not Scotland?

      Because in 2014, the majority of Scots, and everyone else that calls Scotland home, said no, thanks.

      Its got to be a ref. Otherwise, tanks on the Holyrood lawn, draped in union jacks, Colonel Ruth training crosshairs on those postmodernist Holyrood front doors.

      Colin’s just another UKOK bullshiter and not that great either.

    41. mike d says:

      My own personal thoughts were that the snp with a democratic mandate of 56 mp’s,could and should have done more.kicked up holy hell with demands from West re the broken vows. I just hope we are more ready for these devious b******s next time. Because we’ll only get one shot at it for a long long time.

    42. mike d says:

      Should have said “Westminster.

    43. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Donnywho (10.52) –

      Nice one!

      😉

    44. Lenny Hartley says:

      Donnywho @ 10:52 superb analogy

    45. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Graham says: 15 July, 2017 at 11:09 am:

      ” … Every unionist party in our parliament have the same agenda ,obstruct confuse and daily distract our administration ,I would suggest the SNP for the most part ignore them for the time being and concentrate on the main problem , park all these frivolous FOI requests etc that are being used to gum up the works.”

      I was with you until that last wee bit, Robert.

      I believe the SNP part of the SG have their head screwed on and with the right direction of rotation. You cannot put a left hand threaded nut on a right hand threaded screw.

      The twin policies of bide your time & give your opponent enough rope to hang themselves is the way to go. If the SG dig their toes in with too much grip then we force a confrontation, and perhaps even armed confrontation with people getting killed and maimed.

      It is a very old and respected tactic – do not interrupt your enemy when the enemy is making mistakes. As are the tactics of never attacking a more powerful force head on, on their terms and on the battlefield of their choosing and finally remember the element of surprise.

      Unfortunately for Scottish independence we must take a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland with us and not against us. We not only fight the YoonYoonist in our fight for freedom but the ignorant, the apathetic and the downright subservient. These last three categories may require a rude awakening of what Brexit and false austerity really means.

      I believe that not until being starkly faced with the loss of the anti-austerity measures of the SG will these people realise the answer they demand when they state, (not actually ask) the question, “What have the SNP ever done for me.”

      The last one that asked me that question was just being given a short walk for a breath of fresh. Being pushed in their SNHS provided wheelchair by their home carer and having just alighted from a disabled person’s, Motability Provided, adapted vehicle.

      Having shortly before that day been returned home from The Edinburgh Royal Infirmary in a Scottish Ambulance Service vehicle across the Forth Road Bridge, (both coming and going), for a check up after undergoing a day visit operation on an elbow joint.

      I know this person also has free prescriptions and regular visits from SNHS provided physiotherapists and such things as their feet attended to by SNHS provided Chiropodist, or as they are called now, “Podiatrist”?. Not to mention a free Bus Pass among other such benefits like the Frozen Council Tax.

      Such people seem unaware they are far better treated than their fellow sufferers in other parts of the UK and seem unwilling to listen to the truth.

    46. Famous15 says:

      Someone mentioned the absence of Sensible Dave.

      My wife is brilliant at cryptic crosswords so I gave her the clue “Sensible Dave,sensitive to IndyRef2” and before I could give her the number of letters she replied “Simple,Ruth Davidson” She gave an explanation which was beyond me|

      She,the colonel, is on holiday.

    47. Dan Huil says:

      We should give a digger to Brian Quail.

    48. Ken500 says:

      The SNP won. The Unionists are the losers. Digging another hole. In the earth. Enough to bury themselves in the mud. Stinking, sinking sleezy mud. Luddites. Clueless.

    49. Glamaig says:

      Famous15 says:
      15 July, 2017 at 12:47 pm
      She,the colonel, is on holiday.

      It’s been great I hope she makes it a permanent holiday.

    50. Dr Jim says:

      For the Money?

      Doctors, Lawyers, Surgeons, high profile business folk who were earning more before they became MPs or MSPs are in it for the money?

      Where some folk get these ideas about who the SNP are is way beyond me, 80 years in the political wilderness of nowhere fighting for their country and they’re in it for the money?

      Nicola Sturgeon could be at the UN right now earning three times what she earns in Scotland and with a higher profile than any politician in these Islands

      She chooses Scotland

      Aye! definitely the money!

      Now if you said Dugdale or Rennie or Davidson who would struggle to hold down jobs as Nursery Nurse, Bouncy Castle demonstrator or Disco Hostess in Fingers Piano Bar I could see the point

    51. Meg merrilees says:

      Great cartoon Chris. So beautifully drawn.

      —————————
      Heedtracker

      Scotland was a free country ( King James V) in 1539 when the Henry Vlll clause was created.

      This clause pre-dates the Treaty of Union so surely the Treaty of Union supercedes that? .. Scots Law takes precedence in perpetuity etc.. doesn’t it?

      This will just create a re run of the Court case surrounding the triggering of Article 50 by Royal Prerogative, except Henry Vlll clause is even worse as it bypasses Parliament completely allowing primary legislation to be changed without Parliamentary scrutiny.
      It actually creates the very scenario people were objecting to i.e. that Brussels bypassed the WM Parliament and imposed regulations on the British people rendering our Parliament impotent.

      How could we forget the phrase “Take back control”.
      Now the tories will bypass WM rendering the UK Parliament impotent and most probably totally castrating the devolved Parliaments and Assemblies.

      British democracy is rapidly disappearing down the plughole.

    52. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ghillie – re Falkland Islands / self-determintation
      Now I’m home and not on a slow hostel connection I had a quick look and found this:

      http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05602/SN05602.pdf

      3.1 is interesting in that the UK Government talks about the FI right to self-determination under the UN, and the Colonization Committee ignoring it when it says the UK Gov and Argentine should talk about the FI.

      It also generally supports Gibraltar’s rights under that same self-determination. Seems to me the UK Gov would have a diffifcult job being hypocritical and inconsistent if it ever attempted in any way to interfere with Scotland’s right to self-detetmination – in any way at all.

      To me though it shows the importance of a referendum, a clearly stated intention by the People of Scotland to determine our own destiny.

      And we have already – clearly – done that once in 2014, the voters in Scotland exercised our right to self-detetmination in a referendum, the result at that time was to determine we wanted to stay in the UK, albeit by a relatively small majority.

      But that sets a precedent of consultation in a referendum, and I don’t think the UK has a leg to stand on interfering in the right to hold another referendum – its own position on the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar can be held against it.

    53. colin alexander says:

      @Ian McCubbin

      Thank you. Be prepared for people accusing you of being a “Yoon” or other abuse or of me using a fake id.

      Come on Wingers, open your eyes and your mind:

      “Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster” are the SNPs words, not mine. It tells you all you need to know about SNP priorities and hopes.

      I’m not referring to the many rank and file members who passionately want independence, but the professional politicians and spin doctors.

      If the next big one is the indyref, why is Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP worrying about re-jigging party policies to try to make them more attractive in elections?

      Why is she worrying about the UK’s Brexit deal, if we are ending the UK by independence?

      If the SNP is the party of independnece, why can’t we have the SNP policy that they had for most of their existence: a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence? (If the SNP win, we declare independence as they have the democratic mandate to do so).

      Can anyone answer those points instead of hurling abuse at the person making them?

    54. Jock McDonnell says:

      @seanair if you are reading, you asked on the previous thread about Dugdale & Carwyn Jones.

      Truth is Jones will do whatever Corbyn tells him in the end.

      We are on our own & its time to ‘take back control’, as some might say.

    55. Fred says:

      Good article on Dunkirk in today’s National by Pat Kane, the “Britain stood alone!” guff exposed.

    56. Robert Kerr says:

      @colin alexander, 2.38

      ““Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster” are the SNPs words, not mine. It tells you all you need to know about SNP priorities and hopes.”
      My understanding is that was a slogan for the WMGE. your comment is therefore fatuous and rather silly. It does NOT tell me anything other than a desire to represent my Country; one of the two Kingdoms unified at present by treaty withEngland; at Westminster.

      Surely any political party should formulate policies to maximise electoral votes?

      The Brexit deal matters since even an Independent Scotland would benefit from a minimally damaged England as a neighbour.

      You must define SNP “win” in the context of independence.

      I find your contributions to this site rather sad and I have not responded to them till now and shall not do so in future.

      I shall merely skim through any further posts of yours.

      Why don’t you come along to the next WoS meeting and discus face to face with your detractors?

      I am not an SNP member and never intend to be one.

    57. yesindyref2 says:

      Something else that’s interesting about that note about the FI I posted the URL to, is that it was written in 2012. This was the year Cameron said if Salmond wouldn’t get down and organise the Indy Ref, he’d do it for him. But it was also the year of the S30 Order and the Edinburgh Agreement, hailed worldwide as an exercise in Democracy – as was the Ref itself. No guns and tanks for Scotland to self-determine, juse an X on a bit of paper.

      Cameron, whatever his faults, was a democrat. I first started posting on the Grun, not in response to Indy, but the treatment Brussels gave Cameron in Dec 2011. Who can forget Sarkosy ignoring Cameron;s outstretched hand? I think had the EU-27 paid Cameron more respect at the leader of one of the EU members, the EU Ref wouldn’t have happened, Brexit wouldn’t be on, and the UK would be more united that it is now. Well, for us, that’s a two-sided sword, and Indy should be thriving with it.

      May it a totally different kettle of fish. She tried to use the Royal Prerogative, making it just “The Prerogative”. She was brought down by one indidicual and legal team – Millar, and then the UK Supreme Court. No they said, the UK is a democracy, not a dictatorship.

      But still she tried again, overturning the Parliament Act to bring forward an election which she thought would give her an overwhelming 100+ seat majority. No, the people of the UK said, fuck that for a game of soldiers.

      Mention has been mad of the Claim of Right and the English Bill of Rights. May would happily take the whole UK back to before them, keep it as the UK, with soldiers on the streets if neccessary to support it. Foruntaly in terms of Law and Order that is devolved in Scotland. But she would happily see the Goof Friday agreement fall apart in her greed to stay in power, and even her own party fall apart so she can stay as PM.

      The UK is in a dark place, but it is unlikely she will last long, as the People of the UK are stronger than she is, and members of her own party are still retentive of democracy and decency.

      Our position in Scotland is quite dependent on what happens in the UK as a whole over the next few months, and unfortunately all our own Government can do – the much despised SNP Government can do – apart from resist strongly, is wait and see what happens. The trick will be to slowly and continually get the People of Scotland behind what is our own representative Government, that is a challenge for the SNP itself, but from that, if it happens, all good things will follow!

    58. Capella says:

      @ Fred – what is even worse was a BBC Caesar! documentary Churchill V Hitler. I watched part 1 which mentioned several times how “England” stood up against Hitler and stood alone. Dunkirk was a great English triumph. No other nationalities present, no St Valery.

      No idea whether the Gaelic script was at fault or the English subtitles.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08x8sn6/hitler-v-churchill-series-1-episode-1

    59. Grouse Beater says:

      The whole attempt by the Tories to recreate the UK in their image – once and for all – is extremely worrying, Chris, you don’t need me to tell you that, but I touch on it in this weekend’s musings.

      Your weekend reading:

      A belly full: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-hMn
      A Cruise full: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-gZl

    60. schrodingers cat says:

      this snp versus yes is complete havers

      95% of the yes activists in the area i am in are snp members.

      as yes activists we are preparing for the indyref2 which we are certain will come.

      how do we know this? cos we are also snp activists. simples

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander: “If the SNP is the party of indepenndece, why can’t we have the SNP policy that they had for most of their existence: a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence? (If the SNP win, we declare independence as they have the democratic mandate to do so).

      Colin, first you talk about having a referendum just on the sovereignty of the Scottish parliament, in the UK which is a fair enough idea, a stage forward to Independence, the gradualist approach supported by a good number of current NO voters.

      Then you move on to slag off the SNP for virtually everything they do, rather than a few deserved selected points as others, including me have done (their website stinks).

      Then you move on to slagging off Wingers as a whole, gangnam style or Rock style.

      But now you move on to insisting on UDI, something which has been discussed hundreds, thousands of times in this forum, and rejected by the majority, with reasons being given.

      Then you slag off in advance people for not answering you, not going back through all the arguments made previously which you ccould read if you started going backwards through the many articles on Wings – and reading them, and the comments.

    62. Albaman says:

      Wait a minute, Kezia in a relationship with an S.N.P. M.S.P, and does not think it’s “newsworthy!!.

    63. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 15:30,

      Well-focussed gradualism is one thing, diversion up virtue-signalling creeks without paddles is quite another.

      But yes, your last paragraph especially.

    64. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh, back to the Falkland Islands, there’s a summary on this page which links to the full paper

      researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05602

      Successive UK governments have insisted that it is the Falkland Islanders themselves who have the right to decide on their destiny. Argentina maintains that the UN principle of the right to self-determination does not apply in the case of the Falklanders. Both the UK and Argentina accuse each other of colonialism.

      So it appears the UK Government of 2012 and before were strong on the idea of “self-determination”. It remains to be seen whether May is a democrat, an autocrat or just another sordid plutocrat.

    65. Victor Hodgson says:

      The other half of Kezia’s affections is Jenny Gilruth ( S.N.P.) and is a M.S.P.

    66. Proud Cybernat says:

      Can we have a wee game of ’20 Questions’? I’ll start.

      Supports independence, hates SNP, thinks we’re a’ daft.

      PS – another cracker there, Mr Cairns.

      PPS – Love conquers all. Kez has found love with SNP MSP, Jenny Gilruth. Seems her heart is with the SNP after all. Good luck to the two of them.

    67. Cactus says:

      Excellent Chris.

      Ahm looking forward to our ‘Great iScotland Repeal Bill’.

      Though, we’ll be rightfully taking back what’s ours, with no need to grab.

      xxx days to go until Scotref.

      Count the days.

    68. Jack Murphy says:

      mike d said at 12:15 pm:

      “Aye lord bob geldof,another a*****le who told Scotland we would be better together.”

      Here’s a few more random signatories to the ‘We Love You Scotland’ Referendum Lovebomb Letter of 2014.

      That was before UKOK voted in 2016 to drag Scotland out of the European Union!!

      John Barrowman

      Dame Vera Lynn

      Sir Cliff Richard

      Dan Snow

      David Starkey

      Alan Sugar

      Cilla Black

      George Galloway

      Sir Max Hastings

      Eddie Izzard

      Baroness PD James

      John Lloyd (journalist)

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      Yes, it’s a difficult path to tread, but for the SNP they need to tread both, the left-hand path of gradualism, and the straight ahead one of Independence. To win back popular support outside the Indy supportrs with their “relaunch”, perhaps they need, to our irritation, to spend some time on the left-hand path, in reality as well as in words. A difficult one, as the position paper of December was along the gradualist path.

      I’ve got to say I’d happily contribute openly to strategy discussions but certainly wouldn’t want to be a decision-maker in the SNP!

      The problem of course is time. Brexit gives an almost immediate chance of Indy via Indy Ref 2, and is the total justification for it. But it’s not getting the support some of us (me for instance) would have expected. Yet, anyway. Meanwhile support for Indy ranges from let’s say, 42% to 56%, in the background.

      Which is of course why so many are trying to target Indy supporters with negatives about, well, just about everything, really, with generating division, agressive over-defenciveness and debate suppression being the means.

      There’s no doubt in my mind Indy is under attack as never before, which means of course, the other side think it’s very close, real close – and that we’re actually winning the battle under the surface.

    70. Donald MacLean says:

      Imagine there was no SNP?

      What would Scotland be?

      You can’t, because you can”t define it!

      At this juncture in Scottish history the SNP define who we, even those who oppose us, their opposition to Scotland’s freedom defines them!

      Those criticising the SNP would do well to remember that without the SNP, Scotland is an irrelevance, with the SNP there is hope, a reason to be and a goal to aim for!

      Look at the three female leaders we have in Scotland, who would you trust to place Scotland first? Look further afield to Mrs May, can you ever imagine her putting Scotland first?

      Look back on how Scotland was governed between the suspension and reinstatement of its parliament.

      As many have said the uk is in a self destructive spiral, I trust Nicola and her team to play the cards correctly.

      There is no other vehicle to take us to independence, let’s all get behind it and push!

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      For me this is a bit of a time of “taking stock”, so the summary is as others have pointed out, the start position of support for Indy and a campaign.

      It went from perhaps 28% to 45% in Indy Ref 1. A straight line increase would make that 62% in Indy ref 2, but a proportional one would make it 72% (45/28*45).

      The Unionists have pee as in “SNPee” running down their legs.

    72. Dr Jim says:

      This is a smashing argument they’ve come up with now

      Don’t bother protecting ourselves from a punch in the face today as we should concentrate on Independence tomorrow

      And the problem with this infantile stupid dumb argument is the SNP are the party of government for the whole of the population of this country not just petted lip so called Independence supporters constantly attempting to undermine their work for all voters so that perhaps those voters who are not on the side of the SNP will get the point that the SNP do in fact concentrate on the day job and are not held to ransom by Ideology but seek to persuade others of the value of the Ideology of which they speak

      If Scotland is to become Independent (I hope) it must be built properly with solid foundation and consensual or it’s worth exactly the same crap as the Inglish system we have now

      If you want Jeremy Corbyn style of lies vote for him and go back to the 40s instead of Big Treezas 50s

    73. colin alexander says:

      @schrodingers cat

      So if YES is coming, why is Alex Salmond talking about re-standing for Westminster?

      Why is the SNP re-vamping policies for elections including Councils etc, when those elections are FIVE YEARS from now?

      Why doesn’t the again SNP stand on a political mandate of a single issue: Independence?

      A party can offer a referendum without expecting it to win. The Remainer Tory Govt offered an EU exit referendum in the expectation it would be a loser, but it was done to appease the anti-EU/pro-UKIP voters. (But in that case the Tories got it wrong and Leave won).

      If the SNP do come up with an indyref2 it will be for the same reason – to appease the pro-independence supporters. They SNP aren’t planning on a YES win. They are planning to win more elections, so that’s why they need to become more popular as a regular devolution political party – so win more elections as a regular political party.

      As two YES losses in a row and indy will be shelved indefinitely. Though the SNP will continue to offer that indyref carrot to independence supporters as a way of getting some easy votes to try and keep them kings of devolution.

      The SNP can do what they want; that’s fair enough. I can understand SNP members defending their party.

      However, as a YES / independence supporter my priority is independence or at least Scottish Sovereignty within the Union, not how well the SNP do in elections.

      I want Scotland to give a clear mandate for independence, not for a multitude of party policies in a manifesto or because they like the SNP candidate.

      There is a clear conflict of interests between devolutionist SNP and independence.

      The SNP won’t go full for independence for the fear of losing MSPs and MPs.

      That’s the whole reason devolution was done the way it was done.

      Appease the SNP. It worked.

    74. Glamaig says:

      Capella says:
      15 July, 2017 at 3:21 pm
      No idea whether the Gaelic script was at fault or the English subtitles.

      The subtitles were accurate. Britain and England were used interchangeably.

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander
      Salmond: “I fought ten elections, I’ve won nine of them and I’d like to make it nine out of 11 or 10 out of 11, rather than nine out of 10, put it that way”.

      Salmond had previously ruled out any possibility of joining the House of Lords, though implied that returning to Holyrood could be a “political opportunity” that he would not necessarily pass on.

      Holyrood, is Holyrood, is Holyrood, Colinn, he said nothing about Westminster.

      Nice try, but no banana.

    76. Grouse Beater says:

      Colin Alexander: “Why doesn’t the again SNP stand on a political mandate of a single issue: Independence?

      How big a list of personal conjecture can one person manage in a single post?

    77. Brian Powell says:

      Shame about Jenny Gilruth, she seemed a good MSP, pity to lose her.

    78. colin alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      I quoted the article, not Kezia.

      It said Sky asked him about WESTMINSTER. Are you suggesting Sky falsely reported the question put to A S ?

    79. colin alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      The article does say he would not consider joining the HoS, so you are right about that.

    80. Capella says:

      @ Glamaig – thanks. Thought it very sad that a Gaelic speaking script would make the same mistake as most London based English speakers.
      I recently ordered “St Valery, The Impossible Odds”, edited by Bill Innes. He interviewed many Gaelic speakers for a Gaelic TV current affairs programme in 1988. A pity that the memory has been lost to BBC Caesar!.

    81. schrodingers cat says:

      colin alexander says:
      So if YES is coming, why is Alex Salmond talking about re-standing for Westminster?
      Why is the SNP re-vamping policies for elections including Councils etc, when those elections are FIVE YEARS from now?

      its all part of our cunning plan whereby we……… actually, if i told you i’d have to kill you.

      top secret see, only for snp members to know, we will let the riff raff like yersel know when we are good and ready 🙂

    82. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “How much longer can this farce go on.”

      Another 310 years at least, if the SNP continues to play according to Westminster rules.

      Truth Always.

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander:
      Why is the SNP re-vamping policies for elections including Councils etc, when those elections are FIVE YEARS from now?

      Why does any political party keep an up to date manifesto, changing year to year, conference to conference?

      Why doesn’t the again SNP stand on a political mandate of a single issue: Independence?

      They SNP aren’t planning on a YES win.

      Yes they are.

      They are planning to win more elections

      Name me one party that wouldn’t do the same. So, like, duh!
      Because firstly they are the party of Government in Scotland, secondly they’d get considerably less tahn 50% of the votes, thirdly voters many of whom aren’t too fussed about Indy either way wouldn’t vote for them with no policies, fourthly UDI as already discussed wouldn’t be recognised internationall against the only Ref result which returned a 55% NO.

      A party can offer a referendum without expecting it to win.

      A bit pointless innit?

      If the SNP do come up with an indyref2 . . .

      They already did. You must have missed the Holyrood vote.

      As two YES losses in a row and indy will be shelved indefinitely.

      Cobblers. If IR2 doesn’t get a YES there will be IR3, IR4, . . . as long as it takes.

      I can understand SNP members defending their party.

      I’m not renewing Colin, and when I’ve got time I’m going to actively resign as a member, as political parties never were my bag, so it’s back to be non-aligned. But I will be voting SNP unless something better ever comes along. And the SNP are an Independence party.

      There is a clear conflict of interests between devolutionist SNP and independence.

      No there isn’t, we have devolution and the SNP are the Government of a devolved Scotland. As the duly elected Government their clear and present duty is to perform as a Gvoernment, resisite dilution of their powers and, indeed, go for more pwoers as for isntance the NI got corporation tac and some APD devolved to them.

      The electorate as a whole will judge them as a devolved Government, as it did in 2011 when it returned an overall majority SNP Government. Many who voted SNP (14% or even more) voted SNP even though they didn’t support Indy, but recognised that the SNP were by far better than the Labour option.

      The SNP won’t go full for independence for the fear of losing MSPs and MPs.

      Cobblers.

      Appease the SNP. It worked.

      Don’t you read the news? It didn’t work, the SNP SG and Tory UKG are at loggerheads over, well, just about everything, really.

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      Colin Alexander ““Why doesn’t the again SNP stand on a political mandate of a single issue: Independence?”

      I missed out replying to that point to point. One word answer really – UDI is bad – and why would a majority in Scotland vote for a single issue party?

    85. Rock says:

      Liz,

      “If Kevin McKenna is writing another SNP are useless article I wouldn’t know cos I’ve blocked him.

      He is no friend of indy and just another attention seeking time waster living off the backs of those who want this country to be free and independent”

      As is Ian McWhirter, in my view.

      Truth Always.

    86. yesindyref2 says:

      @ colin alexander says: “I quoted the article, not Kezia.”

      Who said anything about “Kezia” apart from you and a previous Wings article? I’m quoting the article in The National. The National, being Indy supporting you know, is more likely to get it right, than the negative SNPbad Sly. Sorry, Sky, that was a typo but I like it.

    87. Capella says:

      BBC Caesar! – I have no idea how that happened. I typed BBC Caesar!. A mystery.

    88. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “The SNP won.”

      More than the win, it is the change in vote share that is more important for the independence cause.

      Admit it or not, the SNP vote going down from 50% to 34% was a major setback to the independence cause.

      Instead of being in a strong position to forcefully announce a second independence referendum, Nicola was left dithering and forced to postpone legislation for a referendum.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Truth Always.

    89. Cactus says:

      Aye and once their teeth bite, it’ll be like lockjaw, it is a creature of habit.

      “Brexit Deadline (Time left to reach a deal)”
      622 days and counting…

      http://interactive.news.sky.com/2017/brexit-countdown/

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      @ colin alexander: “The article does say he would not consider joining the HoS, so you are right about that.”

      HoL Colin, not HoS.

      I do research before posting, rather than making sweeping inaccurate statements. I recommend it.

    91. Capella says:

      Ha Ha – the site is changing BBC – Gaelic-Name Begins with an “A” – to Caesar. How bizarre! Anyone else find this happens?

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      “Admit it or not, the SNP vote going down from 50% to 34% was a major setback to the independence cause.”

      Jesus, they’re all at it with the lying “we’re doomed” crap. First it’s 37% not 34%. Secondly it’s no setback to Indy, as transparently there were Indy suporters didn’t vote SNP this time. I certainly know a few, one even voted Tory because he can’t stand Sturgeon.

    93. Bill Hume says:

      OK, I admit that I have had a few….but honestly, would all my fellow Wingers please take a chill pill. The daily barage of anti SNP/Independence ordure (hey google it….I did) which we all endure, is not something we should fear or, indeed, get pissed off about. It’s the physical manifestation of the unionist’s realisation that they have no valid arguments left in their armoury.

      I just realised that I used a lot of big words in this post…still, all fellow winger will understand them……..the rest can just f**k off.

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      “Nicola was left dithering and forced to postpone legislation for a referendum”

      She hasn’t postponed fuck all. It’s still planned before Brexit, but after negotiation results are known – same as it always was.

    95. Luigi says:

      Sigh,

      all this “SNP Bad, SNP Baaaaad” doom and gloom trolling is becoming rather tiresome.

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      “and the SNP will be caught napping”

      I haven’t read such shite since I stopped reading . . . any suggestions gratefully received.

    97. sassenach says:

      Sad to say but Colin has – once more – managed to drag the original topic (which was about the ‘Power Grab’) and effectively turned the discussion to his arguments about the SNP performance.

      Will we never learn to ignore this troll and his ‘associates’. It’s getting to the stage that I am certainly visiting here less often as it gets difficult to avoid not only colin’s posts, but many others that rise to his ever-so-obvious ‘fishing expeditions’.

      I really thought we knew how to handle things better!

    98. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 15:55,

      With the Grandiose Repeal Bill, a lot of people are going to wake up, I think. And not just in Scotland either. This is an issue that is just as concerning in its own way for people in England also. For once we are not going to be out on our own.

      This thing is the biggest assault by a government on the constitutional setup of the whole UK there has been for centuries. It makes the tussles over the HoL a hundred years ago seem like peanuts. This Tory UKGov is now bent on undermining the very foundations of the English constitutional theory of parliamentary supremacy as well as the Scottish position of popular sovereignity.

      The warnings that Prof. Michael Dougan are slowly being realised. Always worth re-referencing:

      https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/10/05/watch-eu-law-expert-professor-michael-dougan-great-repeal-act/

      Much though people might want an easy life, they are just not going to be able to ignore this one. This is likely what Nicola & Co well realise.

      I can’t see a confrontation between SG and UKGov not developing, actually.

    99. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “I haven’t read such shite since I stopped reading . . . any suggestions gratefully received.”

      As a very frequent poster here, I trust you will cut down on your daily consumption of The National so you can have more than a fiver for this site next time round.

      Truth Always.

      yesindyref2,

      “To pick up what Rev says, all I gave was £5, and posted as much on the first thread.

      Am I ashamed it’s so little? Why should I be? It’s all I can afford at the moment.”

    100. Andy-B says:

      Nice one Chris.

      “galamcennalath says:
      15 July, 2017 at 11:07 am
      This how it all began over 300 years ago”

      Yes indeed, and here’s a list of those who sold us out.

      http://www.unknownscottishhistory.com/articlefive.php

    101. Glamaig says:

      @ Capella

      It was an odd mixture.

      Britain was widely referred to as England at the time including by Churchill and the Germans so some of it wasn’t surprising. But at one point they referred to the ‘King of England’ in the commentary.

      And BBC Caesar! usually takes a Scottish perspective so it was also surprising they didnt even mention the 51st, there being so many Gaels in it. Less than zero Scottish perspective in this program.

      As an aside that ‘King of England’ caused me to go and look at what the Queens actual titles are and they different in each country, interestingly in Guernsey and Jersey she is the ‘Duke of Normandy’.

    102. Capella says:

      @ sassenach – well said. There’s far too much to scroll past now.

      Nobody has tried to post BBC (the Gaelic station). When I type the actual name which sounds like Elba but with an A not an E, it appears here as BBC Caesar! At my first post at 3.21 it was fine. But at 5.03 pm it was changed.

      Any explanation anyone?

    103. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rock
      it doesn’t cost me a penny, not one brown cent.

    104. Dr Jim says:

      What Luigi said!

    105. stewartb says:

      Mr Colin Alexander has had a productive, successful day today here BTL on Wings! Congratulations are in order.

      Searching through 94 separate posts up to 5.42pm, his name appears c.32 times. From a quick scroll through, I estimate that he has secured a profile for himself and his views in nearly 33% of all today’s BTL posts.

      This could be a record – unless someone knows differently?

    106. Capella says:

      @Glamaig – thx for the feedback. I also found it a very peculiarly Anglo-centric piece of documentary for a Gaelic channel.
      I see you have been able to post BBC Elba with an A without it being changed to BBC Caesar!. So maybe it is some peculiarity my browser developed this afternoon. Although, when I type it in the comment box it looks fine.

      Testing – here goes – BBC Caesar!

    107. Capella says:

      Well the glitch seems to have been fixed. But what an odd glitch .

      BBC Caesar!, BBC Caesar!, BBC Caesar! – I’m chancing my luck now!

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      @sassenach
      Sure, I agree, but as one, perhaps the one, who saw merit in his first reasonably innocuous posting about a “soveriegn Scottish Parliament within the UK” as an option which could appeal to the NO-voting devo-maxers, I’ve watched as that has turned into a constant attack on the SNP for, well, everything really, and now onto what is a veiled demand for UDI.

      So I refuted his posting which has moved away from his original reasonable posting bit by bit, thread by thread to the standard SNPbad type posting, refuted it point by point, one time and only one time.

      After that it would be “stet, read my posting dated 15 July, 2017 at 5:06 pm”.

      Though, unlike a certain other poster, I don’t keep a database of what every poster has ever said – a simple exercise with a text scanner, analyser and relational database (SQL) and query language at a unit’s disposal. I could probably knock it up in perl in an enthusiastic day or two, or pay google to do it for me.

    109. Glamaig says:

      BBC Caesar – the Imperial Broadcasting Corporation!

    110. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland “I can’t see a confrontation between SG and UKGov not developing, actually.

      Indeed, but the trick will be to make it one all the People of Scotland realise is for them, not just Indy supporters. A difficult trick to pull off. It will also be good if it’s done in a way the Scottish Unionist parties have a straight choice: stick to SNP-bashing and reveal themselves as transparently tractors, or fold and support the SNP and the SG.

      Meanwhile Indy supporters do have to get fully behind the SG on this one, and that’s still a problem in itself.

    111. Petra says:

      @ Meg @ 2:17pm ….. ‘Henry V111 …. 1539.’

      Good post Meg and that’s what I can’t understand either. Apart from it being farcical or more to the point apt for Westminster to use legislation relating to a womanising, mass murderer keen on beheading what does this have to do with Scotland? Seems that they can’t find anything to use from their tomes of legal mumbo jumbo from 1707 on. One wonders what Scottish Constitutional experts have to say about this?

      …………………………….

      SNP MSP Jenny Gilruth and Kezia Dugdale, Mmmh! Jenny Gilruth liaison officer to John Swinney. One wonders what they’ll talk about other than sweet nothings? Seems too that the SNP aren’t so Baad after all. Let’s hope that Jenny gives Kezia an education and ultimately ‘converts’ her to the cause.

      …………………………..

      As already pointed out to the Unionist on here Alex Salmond’s reference to ‘restanding’ relates to Holyrood not Westminster. Other than that you’d be on here all day correcting the garbage that he / she’s posting on here.

      ………………………….

      One of the things that annoys me most of all about the 51st / St Valery France tragedy is that the Scots held rear guard action to ensure that over 350,000 troops (and civilians) managed to escape. Of the 350,000, 120,000 were French. To my mind they should have stayed behind to support the 10,000 Scots (better still rather than) that were eventually marched off to POW’s. Stayed behind to fight for their own folks / own country.

      ………………………..

      I’m on my IPad so can’t post the latest extremely harrowing article on Craig Murray’s site. Another ‘story’ that the UK MSM won’t be telling you about any time soon. It’s well worth a read. On a lighter note there’s more good news on Prof Robertson’s ‘Talking up Scotland’ site. As always well worth a read too.

    112. colin Alexander says:

      @ yesindyref2

      Re the AS interview; it was a Sky interview. I took it from the original source: Sky, not the National. Holyrood.com says he said WM or HR.

      I’m not slagging anyone on WoS. If something I wrote comes across as that, then I apologise: I can assure the readers I’m not out to slag anyone on here. Even when people slag me, I don’t slag them back.

      I do criticise the SNP and some SNP personnel by name in a professional capacity not personally. I don’t put Scotland down. I’m pro-indendence – I think it’s the best option for Scotland.

      If the majority won’t elect the SNP on an indy single issue mandate then they aren’t going to vote indyref either, in my opinion.

      Aye the SNP are the (minority) Scot Govt, but that Scot Govt is not a real govt. It’s a devolution administration. A puppet govt of WM who gives and can take powers off HR like taking sweeties off a wean. Put simply, HR has NO sovereignty whatsoever.

      A govt that has no sovereignty is a govt in name only.

      The UK Govt and Scot Govt might be at loggerheads at times but it’s soon resolved, WM overrules the impotent Scot Govt.

      Like Joan McAlpine giving undeserved credibility to the Record by writing for it, the SNP give credibility to WM devolution by administering it. Playing at being a pretend govt.

      I would accept it was worth doing as a means of trying to achieve independence, but in my opinion it is indefensible for the SNP to continue to accept the current HR is subervient to WM set up.

      I challenge the SNP to prove me wrong, but I’ve seen nothing to suggest the SNP can stop the Great Westminster Power Grab or do anything more than make weak and ineffective complaints. As long as people keep electing them, then the SNP will accept that situation as they have accepted their place: administrators of devolution.

      Flattered by the name of govt and paid the salary of govt, but the reality is, it is bribery and flattery to keep Scotland under the WM yoke.

      The SNP have been bought off, got nice political careers, so now they won’t go all out for independence.

    113. Capella says:

      Why is BBC pushing Tony Blair’s “The EU may compromise on free movement and Britain could stay in a reformed EU” all day (interspersed with brief results from the tennis)?

      Has he been appointed as a negotiator?
      He should be in the dock in The Hague, not swanning around telling us what he thinks should happen.

      Mr Blair said: “I’m not going to disclose conversations I’ve had within Europe, but I’m not saying this literally on the basis of a whim.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40615119

    114. Meg merrilees says:

      O/T

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p058p37k

      I urge you all to listen to this.This is powerful stuff.
      It narrates a firefighter’s attempt to rescue people from Grenfell Tower taken from his own notes.

      How anyone can vote to keep the pay cap denies belief.
      This should be compulsory listening for all politicians who should then be asked to vote again.

    115. Scottish Steve says:

      @Jack Murphy 3:55pm

      David Starkey signed the love bomb letter? Well that’s surprising, considering he called Scotland a “feeble little nation” and accused us of being insecure in our national identity because we insist on playing bagpipes and wearing kilts.

      Yet another nasty wee imperialist who despises the Scots but wont see us leave because how bloody dare we try to leave the warm bosom of Westminster.

      Why do Scottish unionists enjoy being treated with such contempt by their southern neighbours?

    116. Moonlight says:

      @Colin Alexander.
      I don’t want to waste any of my time on this.
      But I have a question.
      There is one party in Scotland which is not the creature of London.
      That party is the SNP.The SNP espouses independence as the only way out of the mess we find ourselves in. Who should we support and vote for if not the SNP?
      The SNP may not please everyone all of the time, but, how could supporting the Cons, The Labs or the Libs in anyway forward the cause of a free Scotland?

    117. Petra says:

      @ Sassenach at 5:41pm ….. “It’s getting to the stage that I am certainly visiting here less often.””

      Well that’s the name of the game Sassenach. Scunner folks off visiting the site altogether and it seems to be working which is a real shame.

      …………………………………

      @ StewartB at 6:01pm …. “33% of posts”.

      It’s becoming an absolute farce on here and I see that his mate has now appeared too. Who next? What percentage of anti-SNP / Independence posts by the end of the night? The site seems to be metamorphosing into a Unionist supporting site as the 33% of posts thus far highlights and I’m totally gobsmacked that nothing’s being done about it.

    118. Meg merrilees says:

      Petra

      Her’s the link to Craig’s blog he compares current actions in Mosul to Srebrenica, only worse.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk

      Capella:

      Blair is wanting to be seen as the cavalry riding in on white chargers at the last minute to save the UK. And of course, if Brexit is stopped, ‘that woman’ won’t want her independence referendum so it would solve the Scottish Question.

      Just testing… BBC Caesar! no problems there I think, let’s press send and see what comes out…

    119. Glamaig says:

      Just one small part of the Great Brexit Cock-up:

      According to reports by the Spiegel, the costs to be borne by the UK for the Brexit are estimated at € 100 billion. One of the expensive costs is the relocation of the former EU-based EMA drug agency in London. The EU wants 582 million euros from the UK.
      This sum includes, for example, the transfer for the non-terminable rental agreement of the EMA in London’s business district Canary Wharf until 2036 – 448 million euros. In addition, the EU is counting on almost 24 million euros for the relocation of some 800 employees of the medicines agency to a list of the European Parliament’s budgetary committee. A total of almost 30 million euros is earmarked for the preparation of the removals.

      http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2017-07/brexit-grossbritannien-eu-verpflichtungen-zahlungsverpflichtung

    120. Gary45% says:

      Trezza and the rest of her thieving, lying, inbred bastar*s should endorse a new trendy drink. “SHITEY PISH” get “Dicky Bird” from the film Comfort and Joy and use the tune from the “catchy?? “thrifty pops” advert used in the film.
      If you have seen the film, you’ll get the idea.

      On a more serious note type in Lego/Motorhead into youtube. “Classic”. + many others.
      Oh aye, nice one Chris.

    121. frogesque says:

      Jenny Gilruth is my MSP, I didn’t support her for her nomination and, whilst I fully support her right to have a relationship with anyone she chooses, her current partnership with Media leaves me uncomfortable.

      Fraternising with the enemy comes to mind. I don’t think this will end well for either party.

    122. frogesque says:

      Kezia, not Media!

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – that’s funny, Highalnd Srping advertising on The National. I guess they’er aware of the bad publicity their CE got himself!

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 19:15:

      Why is BBC pushing Tony Blair’s “The EU may compromise on free movement and Britain could stay in a reformed EU” all day?

      Because Blair is just the latest of the English Establishment’s frantic attempts to keep the London Money Markets in play. They are scared shitless that they will lose passporting rights, so euro trading will move to Frankfurt and Paris.

      As they are seriously preparing to do, but just like a lot of business contingency planning right now, you won’t hear a word about that on the good ole BBC. Non-stories instead of the scare stories we were beset with during indyref1.

      The problem with Blair is that he is all things to all men. You can’t trust a word he says. Lord knows what a self-professed reformist like Macron thinks should happen to the EU in the shorter term, let alone the longer term, but the EU negotiators would be completely bonkers to give up on free movement now. Just to give the English self-delusionists a little respite? They might as well fold up the EU and call it a day.

      As for that BBC article, McDonnell and Corbyn come out of it no better. They are fully-signed-up fantasists over a wonderful “something will turn up” Brexit just like the Tories.

      Pathetic collaborators. The worst official opposition the HoC has seen in quite a while. The SNP contingent outshine them at every turn, yet some people on here just can’t stop moaning on and on about how supposedly useless the SNP are!

    125. Glamaig says:

      Is Tony Blair deluding himself, like everybody else on the UK side? Michel Barnier on 6th July:

      On the EU side, we made three things very clear:
      The free movement of persons, goods, services and capital are indivisible. We cannot let the single market unravel.
      There can be no sector by sector participation in the single market: you cannot leave the single market and then opt-in to those sectors you like most – say, the automobile industry or financial services. You cannot be half-in and half-out of the single market.

    126. Glamaig says:

      Michel Barnier on 12th July:

      The EU positions are clear.
      We now need to know the UK’s position on each of these issues in order to make progress.

      The EU position papers:
      https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en

      It’s as embarrassing as watching Boris Johnson play Federer at tennis.

    127. Petra says:

      @ Capella at 7:15 …. “BBC pushing Tony Blair’s…..”

      Totally agree with you Capella. You sometimes wonder if you’re living in a bl**dy madhouse. If Tony Blair had faced the Hague it may have defused a great deal of resentment and anger from the victims of the Iraq invasion and escalations elsewhere. May in fact have lessened the potential for terrorist activity here. Millions of people abroad are rightly enraged about what has been / is happening and their ‘feelings’ are being exacerbated with decisions being made at Westminster such as letting that wee runt Blair off of the hook.

      Meanwhile they’re still harping on about free movement of people. I’ve been faced with this question here in Scotland and have to point out that if people ‘fear’ a certain section of society the individuals in question, as per them, are not coming from the EU at all but rather Commonwealth countries which T May and her predecessors have / had 100% control over. Furthermore other EU countries stick to the policy of ensuring that people leave if they haven’t found work after three months / don’t have the financial resources to support themselves. This didn’t happen in the UK because the whole system has broken down to the point that they don’t have a clue who / how many people are actually living here now. In other words Westminster in the main has created this situation. Add to that the complaint that everyone wants to come here. Not surprising when Westminster was doling out benefits (implemented by Blair?) that other EU countries refused to do. For one child benefit being awarded for children living abroad. In other words we could deal with the immigrant situation differently in an Independent Scotland that meets the needs of our country within the EU framework. The last person we need ‘negotiating’ for Scotland is the notorious warmonger Tony Blair the man who said he’d make the UK a multi-cultural society (now seemingly turning his back on that idea) and then went on to buy numerous properties, homes, abroad.

    128. Capella says:

      @ Meg merrilees – “Caesar!” was OK at 3.21 but changed to Caesar! at 5.03 and 5.14 then changed back to Caesar! at 6.02.
      I can’t think of any possible reason for that. It’s hardly credible that someone went to the trouble of intercepting my posts, and wrote a piece of code to change Caesar! to Caesar! for one hour.
      But as Glamaig says – how apt that it was the Imperial Broadasting Company.

      @ RJS – I wouldn’t put it past Blair to plan a return to politics, perhaps leading a government of National Unity. Kills several birds with one stone. We’d better make sure we aren’t one of them.

    129. Ken500 says:

      The SNP won. 37% A landslide victory. They would have won more in Holyrood on FPTP. More in the Councils FPTP? Independence vote increasing. Referendum coming soon.

      Blair caused the migration crisis in Europe. Along with the Labour/Unionists. Blair caused the Brexit lies by the Tory/Unionist. Gave them the excuse. To tell a pack of lies. The Westminster Unionists caused the illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Wasting public money on groteque projects of little value, Accumulating £Trns of debt. Most of them should be in jail.

      Useless ignorant incompetents. Killing and maiming millions of vulnerable people. Disgraceful liars. Trying to ruin the world economy. So they can line their pockets wasting £Billions of public money. Taking £20Billions from Scotland with their corrupt policies, which could be better spent. Shameless. They hide their crimes under the Official Secrets Act. They never get cautioned and jailed for hideous crimes. There is no deterrent. That’s how they get way with it.

    130. Ken500 says:

      5% of migrants in the UK did not cause any crisis. Total and utter lies. The Tories are consummate liars. Blaming everyone else for their failures.

    131. colin alexander says:

      @Petra says

      “A S referred to Holyrood”. Prove it. What’s your proof?

      Sky said Westminster and it was a Sky interview. Holyrood.com say WM and Holyrood.

      So how come you and indyref2 say it’s just HR? The National? That’s the same stable as the Herald. A badly written paper, even if pro-indy.

    132. colin alexander says:

      @ Petra

      I’m not pro-Union, I’m pro-indy.

      It’s the SNP I criticise, but accept they are the best of a bad bunch as devolution administrators, but rubbish at standing up for Scottish sovereignty within the Union or getting us out of the Union altogether.

      Not SNP bad, SNP mediocre devolution administration.

      SNP very little chance of bringing us independence.

    133. colin alexander says:

      As for those that say: if indyref2 fails we just have indyref 3, 4 and 5.

      I agree that should be the case.

      However, the reality is if indyref2 fails after waiting 4 or 5 years. There might be another indyref, but it’s unlikely to be for 10 or 20 years or more. The SNP will be back to: vote SNP safe in the knowledge that you’re voting for free pensioner bus passes, not for independence.

    134. Sunniva says:

      Can’t say I’m at all happy with two MSPs being in a relationship who are in different parties. It would be different if one or neither of them was an MSP, but there is potential for sensitive information to cross. That’s what I’m uncomfortable with.

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander
      Don’t try that with me Colin, many unionists have tried to misprepresent what I said and failed miserably. I said:

      “Holyrood, is Holyrood, is Holyrood, Colinn, he said nothing about Westminster.”

      Salmond said: “I fought ten elections, I’ve won nine of them and I’d like to make it nine out of 11 or 10 out of 11, rather than nine out of 10, put it that way”.

      The National said: “Salmond had previously ruled out any possibility of joining the House of Lords, though implied that returning to Holyrood could be a “political opportunity” that he would not necessarily pass on.”

      From what Salmond said himself he said nothing about either Holyrood or Westminster in the Sky interview, but had implied previously he’d consider returning to Holyrood.

      Do you understand the difference, Colin, or do you want to play a little more?

    136. twathater says:

      Watched STV news earlier I see they are following their masters playbook the Brutish Lying Corporation by lodging many FOI requests all to damage and destroy any confidence the Scottish people have in their institutions and governance

      I am fucking raging that these barstewards are once again trying desperately to undermine and denigrate OUR WONDERFUL SNHS BY CONCENTRATING ON NEGATIVETY rather than highlighting the commitment and dedication shown by staff fighting for the benefit of patients under ever demanding conditions and restraints forced on our government by greedy unscrupulous arsewipes

      They have introduced figures to assert that waiting time figures for certain medical procedures have increased by 400% over the past year , In interview health secretary Shona Robison stated that these figures were not acceptable and everything was being done to address these problems , but we have to realise that we are facing ever increasing pressures with an aging population and their demands on our services. Rather than act as proper investigative journalists and reporters to find out the reasons behind this increase in waiting times , STV do the exact same headline grabbing sensationalism as their fellow yoonionist MSM and scaremonger and denigrate all to say essennpee baddd
      May i enquire if anyone has done any research to ascertain if the massive influx ( estimate 1.25 million ) many of them elderly citizens with varying degrees of illness from other regions within the UK to Scotland has had any impact on these and other waiting times ,and the extra pressures this puts on our services

      Please may i make it clear that i am in no way inferring the brexit argument that incomers are overwhelming our services

    137. colin alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      I’m no arguing the toss for the sake of it.
      I’ll agree his answer was vague. The non-National sources I checked all say the only one he ruled out was the HoL, (Hos was a typo).

      That’s something I DO praise the SNP for, that they don’t join the rejected politicians’ gravy train in the HoL.

      I’m not out to wind you or anyone up, so let’s drop the AS thing.

    138. twathater says:

      In addition to my other posting please may i make it clear that i hold NO animosity towards any English ,Welsh , Irish or EU incomers other than those who voted against Scottish independence

    139. TheWasp says:

      Colin Alexander, the way you are constantly overegging your indy credentials but ripping into the SNP at the same time we all realise you are on shift for the 77th brigade, and just a yoon fud.
      I was actually avoiding reading this forum for the first time in three years because of our Colin, but I’ve decided just to put up with him and roll along

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Aye, the spam rolls are a pain in the hole, but wouldn’t it be more of a worry of they weren’t here at all?

      I’m not aware of any indy supporter ever being offered cash – or directed, as part of their job – to infiltrate pro-Union websites. That simple fact, surely, speaks volumes?

    141. Brian Powell says:

      It’s worthwhile remember, like when out canvassing, there are people who will try to keep you talking for ages, seeming to agree if it looks like you are going to move on.

      It’s a technique to stop you covering a lot of the street. It’s happening on this and other threads, keeping the conversation going round and round but not moving on.

      It’s a tactic.

    142. colin alexander says:

      @TheWasp

      There are no elections where the SNP will be standing for the forseeable future, so what’s the issue with me discussing criticisms of them?

      I thought we’re in North Englandshire, not North Korea. Criticism of the governing party of devolution not allowed now or it’s threats and abuse?

      People are free to refute my views. I welcome debate. However, abuse and false accusations do nothing for the indy cause.

      I’m not responsible for the hundreds of thousands that turned away from the SNP in June. The SNP are responsible for that and the electorate.

      I voted SNP at the Council and GE elections. Because I personally know the candidates and rated them. Now the elections are out the way I can speak more freely.

      You are welcome to use the scroll button and skip my comments – as I will probably do with yours – since you seem unable to debate without being abusive.

    143. Reading between the lines of Colin`s (somewhat incoherent) posts,i think what he is trying to say is,

      `Nicola and the SNP need all of our wholehearted,enthusiastic loyalty and support if we are going to achieve Independence,

      without Nicola and the SNP we are nothing`,

      Colin just phrases it differently.

    144. Legerwood says:

      twathater @ 10.05 pm

      I assume that you are referring to the Tory press release based on their FoI request for information about the number of patients waiting for more than a year for an outpatients appointment?

      The figures were 288 patients waiting more than a year in 2015 rising to 1186 in 2016.

      Now for some context. Over 4.5 million OPD appointments took place in those years. Target wait time is that they should be seen within 12 weeks (84 days): the median wait time is 45 days.

      The numbers waiting more than a year equates to 0.0064% in 2015 and 0.026% in 2016. This is a 400% increase but describing them in this way without the context of the total numbers of OPS appointments is not a credible way to report the data. Also the numbers are so small that each should have been investigated to find out the reason for the delay. They should also be investigated to see if they relate to a small number of Health Boards or are spread through the system.

      The number of OPS appointments have risen from 4.3 million to over 4.5 million annually. In recent years there has been a decrease in the numbers seen within the 12 week target but the most recent figures show an upward movement which suggests that the extra money put into the system to address the fall off is working but it will need a further quarter or two of data to confirm this.

      Two final points. All of the data is fully and freely available on the Information Services Division web site as quarterly and annual reports. The ISD collects and reports on a huge range of NHS data. The NHS in Scotland is the most comprehensively studied, analysed and reported organisation you will ever come across.

      Second point. The increase in demand for OPD appointments may have something to do with an ageing population and the vacancy situation in some disciplines and in some Health Boards. It has little if anything to do with the numbers coming to live here from rUK. So disabuse youself of that one.

      The numbers wa

    145. geeo says:

      Will folk stop responding to the fucking troll !

      Can you not see you are HELPING THE CUNT ??.

    146. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      Re: the bizarre substitution

      There are several “sensitive” words – or even part-words – which are automatically replaced here (others come out as “tractor” and “quizmaster”). I don’t understand why this should happen only sometimes, but all the words do appear in their unaltered form occasionally.

      The word you tried to use was included because a number of people were in the habit of signing off their posts with an expression containing the word: S*** A*** – which was disapproved of.

    147. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      15 July, 2017 at 7:15 pm
      Why is BBC pushing Tony Blair’s “The EU may compromise on free movement and Britain could stay in a reformed EU” all day (interspersed with brief results from the tennis)

      Good copy? sells papers, gets view figures up?

      BBC Scotland massive with catastrophic NHS waiting times all day too, with Dugdale’s new SNP love.

      If you’re your average tory BBC or any tory news ed, this is probably what you’re after, NO actual news, certainly nothing horrid about the Teresa freak show, SNP v v bad.

      The toryboy BBC Scotland had on at teatime news was a very very charisma by-pass kind of dude too.

      Cant have it all, eh beeb gimps:D

    148. heedtracker says:

      Can you not see you are HELPING THE CUNT ??.

      He’s a lot like Tony Blair today really. Blair’s stepping in merely to screw with the tories a bit and that’s it really. It is credible that some EU er, crat told Blair some nice things about changing the EU for England but its almost certainly bollox.

      Colin’s pissing all over the SNP but everyone knows that the SNP quite rationally accepted the “will of the Scottish people” in 2014, qualfied the year after with their manifesto should one merit it clause, or vote SNP for a referendum option.

      Just like Brexit is unstoppable, its democracy. You cant just over turn a result like Brexit because you dont like the result.

      Colin’s just another creep having a go at taking down the SNP. Blair’s doing the same with tories. Both know that less than half of the UK and at least half of Scotland do want to be in the EU and get their country Scotland back.

      But the majority wanted out of Europe and to stay in the UK.

      Only EU way back for the UK is a Brexit ref2 and for Scotland, its the exactly the same.

      Snap GE a few weeks ago, FibDem’s offered England a Brexit ref2 and bombed. Says it all really.

    149. gus1940 says:

      Wings is turning into The Colin Alexander Show – ignore him and he might go away.

      He has also started to pollute the comments on The Herald.

    150. colin alexander says:

      @ Scot Finlayson

      A bit of wit. Well done.

      @geeo Don’t get into debates with people if you consider them trolls. Also do not call them trolls in the forum. I believe that that is the advice given.

      I think it’s a shame some people on here drag down the image of the independence movement with disgusting language.

      But I suppose it will give some people a laugh like a Rab C Nesbitt type of thing.

    151. uno mas says:

      @ frogesque 7.36 pm

      Re Jenny Gilruth

      It´s called pillow talk I believe.

      She is either a “sleeper” (no pun intended) for the establishment or she is guilty of astonishingly poor professional judgment.

      Either way, if I was her boss 9.00 am Monday I would sack her.

    152. Artyhetty says:

      Fab image Chris. The people of Scotland are being treated like dirt, but will not be trodden into the ground again, no thanks!

      Taking a wee breather, and watching stuff. On going to National Library of Scotland image archive, ie, moving image, came across, ‘Hugh MacDIARMID:No Fellow Travellers’ 1972. At 25 mins long, it’s a gem. Take a look, enjoy, the voices of the past are whispering to us, so let’s shout, and keep shouting, sharing info etc, most of all, ignore the paid troll! Just scroll past when you see their name, easy peasy…:-)

      Can’t link re copyright, but it comes up, I think this weeks theme. movingimage.nls.uk

      Fabulous. They talk about ‘too wee, too poor’ etc.

      Off to watch more shorts on nls, happy Sunday all!

    153. Fairliered says:

      As a taxpayer, I resent the amount of money the Scottish Government have to spend researching and answering frivolous FOI requests.
      I think a reasonable rule would be a sliding scale of charges.
      The 1st 10 each year free. The next 10, £100. The next 10, £1,000. The next 10, £10,000, and so on.
      Hopefully that would allow genuine enquiries from genuine enquirers to be made at little or no cost, whilst deterring troublemakers. Looking at you, BBC Scotland.

    154. colin alexander says:

      @gus1940

      I’ve been commentating in the Times and Herald for years. Pro-indy and pro-SNP comments in the main.

      I’ve also been a regular reader and occasional contributor to WoS going back years.

      I’ve been writing recently because of my concern that the SNP has lost focus and that loss of focus could cost us our chances of exercising our Scottish sovereignty.

      The UK Govt are now intent of a huge power grab and further undermining of the very limited ability to exercise Scottish sovereignty under devolution.

      The UK Govt has bypassed Barnett and won’t respect conventions. The courts uphold it’s okay for politicians to lie. So do the electorate by re-electing them.

      The Tories introduced EVEL making Scottish MPs second class citizens at WM.

      The UK Govt ignored the Scottish vote to Remain and the pleadings of the Scot Govt that Scotland should be allowed to remain in the Single Market.

      The SNP can’t stop them unless it changes tactics and policies. LCMs or Sewell is just another convention, but youse are more focused on shooting the messenger, instead of pressuring the SNP to creating effective opposition to UK Govt policies and achieve the exercising of Scottish sovereignty.

      Of course I’ll stop once I’ve done my best to warn people and stimulate debates on how to address the issues. I won’t waste my time with people who won’t listen.

      I try to warn that swearing and gutter talk will also drive away moderate, potential YES voters. Also, insulting everyone who voted No will not convert them to YES: it will also drive them away. All this “Yoon traytor” talk is counterproductive.

      It will make them believe Project Fear propaganda that attempts to brand all YES supporters as neds and thugs.

      Why would anyone want to vote for a cause whose followers insult them? They won’t.

      It’s easy to sit mocking Kezia Dugdale, but she’s the one laughing at youse and rejoicing at how Alex Salmond lost his seat to a Tory, while she is cashing in on £70k a year.

      I’m not laughing. I don’t see something to laugh about while people in Scotland struggle to survive on foodbank handouts and zero hour contracts and Scotland is treated like dirt by WM Govt.

    155. Iain says:

      At the end of the day, things could be worse.
      We all could be fib dems.
      We could belive that Willie Ronnie was the new great leader.
      Thank goodness we believe that Scotland can be more than a second rate country populated by loosers.
      We are right and freedom is in our grasp.
      We have to hold our nerve and fight on.
      The future is ours.
      We will win.
      We have only have to win once.
      They have to win every time.
      There ace card the BBC is never more disbelieved.
      Once again, we will win.

    156. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      What the fuck is Anthony Blair going on about? The fact that the UK opted out of Schengen membership meant that Westminster could already have enforced the 90 day limit on EU migrants staying here outwith employment (and further limits if necessary) that it SHOULD have been enforcing had the Home Secretary given a toss, with no need to leave the single market. The whole idea that freedom of movement is indivisible from the economic factors is evidently a lie.

      The only true freedom of movement that the UK has to abide by is the Common Travel Area.

      Does…does Blair mean that all 26 Schengen states are going to alter their border agreement rules just to please the UK, which already has opted out and has an enshrined protocol protecting that exempt status which would need a separate referendum to overturn? Hahaha. It’s fucking nonsense – couldn’t Buggering British Children have pointed this out?

    157. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      FGS, what among the volumes of today’s postings from Colin the Gish Merchant has any of them to do with today’s actual topic?

      Enough. It’s become too much. He is drowning the discourse with his trivial narcissist diversions. Time he was gone.

    158. I see Norwegian satellites NorSat-1 @ NorSat-2 lifted off (soyuz)from Rus spaceport 08.36 Friday 14th of July 2017, funded by the Norwegian Space Centre,

      Norway not wasting its massive wealth from natural resources on weapons of mass destruction or propping up a rich elite in a foreign capital city,

      instead investing in infrastructure and future science not only for today`s generation but all those following generations.

    159. Macart says:

      The power grab must not and I believe will not go unanswered. It undermines everything devolution and the Scotland bill is supposed to stand for. It should go without saying that those who are supporters of independence are not surprised at the actions of Westminster government. It is after all who and what they are. Devolution was always a means of controlling the natives. The real betrayal here was of those who still supported devolution and the parliamentary union.

      In 2014 a good number of those who voted to retain that parliamentary/political union believed and trusted in a certain vision which was painted for them of the union going forward. Almost three years later, it’s safe to say things haven’t worked out so well.

      Y’know, there IS a lot of economic carnage on its way. It’s already begun (look at the cost of your weekly shop or the stagnation of your wage as a starter for ten) and it’s going to get a LOT worse. It’s going to touch sectors across the entire spectrum of our economy and our daily lives.

      At this particular point, this shit storm won’t care if you voted YES or NO. It won’t care if you voted stay or remain. The process has begun and it can’t be stopped, but it CAN be rectified. IMO we’re not looking at prevention right now. We’re looking at damage limitation. We’re looking at helping, where we can, those most in need. Hopefully, in the very near future, we’re going to be voting to put right what went wrong and begin the process of repairing the damage. Until then…

      If you want to know what the Scottish government are doing, go to Scotgov site and likewise with EU releases go to the EU home page and follow the links on Brexit. (UK gov probably not so much. They do have the use of the UK meeja for that after all.)

      https://europa.eu/newsroom/highlights/special-coverage/brexit_en

      And:

      https://news.gov.scot/news/eu-withdrawal-bill

      What we’re seeing right now is action and consequence, process and procedure. It’s going to be a bumpy ride, no question. More importantly, don’t forget to give what you can to local charities, clothing and foodbanks. People are going to need help.

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm

      Three Rings for the Brexiteers, think that they can fly,
      Ten for the DUP MPs led by Brit Arlene,
      Thirteen for Scots Tories doomed to lie,
      One for the Dark Lady on her dark throne
      In the Land of UK where the Tories lie.
      One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
      One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
      In the Land of UK where the Tories lie.

      Where’s Gollum when you need him?

    161. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah, maybe, cue for Tony Blair!

    162. Petra says:

      The last election was a general election NOT an Independence referendum. MANY people who voted for SLab are in fact Independence supporters who voted for SLab / Corbyn rather than the SNP due to trying to demolish T May. What’s not to get unless you’re daft, a Unionist manipulator or both? Add to that 92% of Scottish Brexiters want to remain in the single market. How will they vote next time round? Vote in Indyref2? As the Westminster Brexit constituting booting the er*e of the single market, customs union plus the implications of the great grab repeal becomes clear support for Independence will rise. All we need is 6% of Scottish votes and that’s why the Unionists are suffering from a chronic case of diahorrea.

      @Gus1940 at 11:52pm … “Mr Alexander also polluting posts on the Herald.”

      Polluting? Smelly? Chronic case of diahorrea? Sounds like a full time, well paid GHSQ job to me. Paid well enough to buy incontinence pads but not enough to influence anyone on here. He, she or it, the great pontificators / confabulators, can blah, blah, blah on and state that they support Independence whilst bleating on that the SNP are Baad but for some reason can’t tell us who we should vote for to achieve our Independence. Something doesn’t ring true. Stinks like diahorrea. Following all of the convoluted Sovereinty crap that we’re being subjected to maybe he, she or it could answer the simplest of questions and that is who should we vote for?

    163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Macart @ 00:44:

      At this particular point, this shit storm won’t care if you voted YES or NO. It won’t care if you voted stay or remain.

      True, very true. But I don’t accept the implicit premise that there’s nothing we here in Scotland can do to avoid the worst of it.

      The whole challenge ahead is not to mitigate and complain about inadequate mitigation à la Davidson, but to engage with everyone, not least those hit hardest, and provide them with hope and at the right time the essential opportunity to escape, and motivate them into actually taking it.

      We have Nicola’s assurance that she is willing to achieve for us that opportunity. We have to demonstrate that we are ready and waiting for it.

      And to hell with living on our knees.

    164. Cactus says:

      Stamping in.

      CLICK!

      LSX.

    165. Petra says:

      Oops! Last post should read GCHQ.

    166. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland / @Macart
      The game’s afoot, as Chris Stephens works to create a division between the DUP and the Tories.

      And of course, using a bad thing and making a good thing out of it – the thralled thirteen “Scottish” Tories. Every time they support the appalling UK Tories, they get castigated (yes, I did say castigated).

      And not surprisingly Lindisfarne have the very number:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAXupkXDWcE

    167. Cactus says:

      It’s Saturday.

      It’s Sunday.

      We LOVE Scotland.

      Keep drinking.

      Keep thinking.

      X.

    168. Macart says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      ” But I don’t accept the implicit premise that there’s nothing we here in Scotland can do to avoid the worst of it.”

      Pretty much the same feeling here Robert. We CAN escape the worst of it by bringing our legislative powers home, restructuring our economy based on our specific needs and dealing with the EU issue on a first party basis. Repairing even this initial damage can then begin in earnest.

      In the meantime though, until such times as we can vote to end the parliamentary union, all we can do is offset and mitigate the effects of the current crisis.

    169. Thepnr says:

      @Petra

      You have a way with words and I love everyone one of them, I see you as being just a bit feisty and love it. Never shut up.

      Good cartoon Chris as always, you’ll not be giving in anytime soon I’m sure, so a man after my own heart. Morale! it’s all about morale, the idea of the bacon rolls is to undermine yours LOL

      I’m sure that’s plain to most so apologies if I’m stating the obvious. Get this though lot’s of sites where you might have commented below the line in the past have been totally destroyed and are now void of pro-indy voices. Their morale weakened and they give in. The weakest fall first others will never fall.

      Deliberate of course, it’s a war of words after all, don’t be an idiot and let Wings go the same way. IGNORE TOTALLY!!!

      I’m sorry but it has to be said it is the only way, use the head. Today’s thread really was a sad state of affairs to read through. Let’s get back to normal. We are capable of so much more and better than the infantile crap I’ve read today.

      Just ignore and believe me, then they lose because they hate being ignored.

    170. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      Ayup. Coming to the boil. 🙂

    171. twathater says:

      @ Legerwood 11.10pm

      Thanks for your response and information re OP waiting times ,the point I was making is that I am sick of ar*ewipe tories and the MSM denigrating and belittling our great SNHS and the work they do
      Re the incomers it is a fact that a vast amount of them are elderly which also comes with assorted ailments ,it is also a fact that they enjoy free prescriptions , free bus passes , lower council tax and other assorted benefits managed by the SG but still they object and vote against independence

      I was asking if anyone had done any research to ascertain if there was any correlation between the influx of incomers related to the increase in waiting times

      We are all aware that the MSM don’t do research to qualify their reports ,but merely engage in scaremongering

    172. Cactus says:

      Love Scotland.

      Grab ur chance.

      Here today, here tomorrow.

    173. Cactus says:

      What’s happening Sunday Scotland…

      Whose got a saor heed..

      Keep it going.

      It’s a 3DB.

      X.

    174. Cactus says:

      Independence.

      It’s a referendum.

      Not an election.

      Remember dat.

    175. Lochside says:

      Re. Jenny Gilruth and Kezia Dugdale….why the double standards? Dugdale had a long term partner, who seems to have been dumped or otherwise eclipsed by this new romance. Stuart Hosie was demoted for his dalliance. Does fidelity only matter when it’s straight married people?

      And as for the compromise factor…can it be wise for an SNP politician to be romantically involved with the Leader of one of our sworn enemies at any time…never mind now? I can’t help thinking that if it had been two men involved, or Nicola Sturgeon ,that the media’s spin on this would have been significantly more critical.

      Blair is an out of control egomaniac. His rant about non specific EU ‘leaders’ backing a ‘deal’ is the product of his psychopathic mind. Naturally the BBC allow this war criminal space to utter total shite.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lochside
      Dugdale and her previous partner split up a long time ago. January.

    177. Fred says:

      Anent cross-party horizontal refreshments. The judges of this will be the constituency party members come re-selection time!

    178. Capella says:

      @ crazycat 11.20 pm – thx for that interesting point about S*** A*** being changed because some people signed off with it. I know Stu is not a fan of Gaelic but that seems a bit excessive. Still it’s his blog he can do what he likes.

      Even so, a computer can quite easily be coded to change the A*** bit IF, and only IF, it follows S***. It would make more sense to change the whole phrase.

      What doesn’t make sense is randomly changing A***.

    179. Capella says:

      UPDATE: Found this explanation of Stu’s akismet filter and signing off with S*** A***.
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/you-dont-know-what-youve-got/

    180. Gary45% says:

      Fred@7.29
      “Anent cross-party horizontal refreshments.” Brilliant.

    181. Glamaig says:

      Lochside says:
      16 July, 2017 at 6:24 am
      ‘…can it be wise for an SNP politician to be romantically involved with the Leader of one of our sworn enemies’

      I imagine the same conversation going on inside Labour – but even more so, now their leader’s nearest and dearest are all SNP!

    182. Capella says:

      OT – GOLF: What is going on with BBC reporting on the Scottish Open? Should it not be the Great British Open? Why are the lead players described as English? Should they not be TeamGB. Shouldn’t they have Union Jacks plastered all over them?

      Other sports people are GB, such as Tennis stars like Andy and Jamie Murray.

      There is no consistency in BBC branding. Unless it is that any Scottish star is GB when winning, otherwise you can use nationality.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/40618983

    183. Ken500 says:

      Dugdale tells voters to vote Tory. Another disaster. Hitching yer wagon to a Tory. Political disaster in Scotland. Down, down and down they go.

    184. heedtracker says:

      An other tory display of what proud Scot buts voted to be reigned over by. Hard to imagine SNP politicos in this level of duh.

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-14/britain-s-brexit-chaos-leaves-eu-friends-and-foes-bemused

    185. heedtracker says:

      Its not funny when its happening to someone else. Clearly they’ve never encountered Blair MacDoughball’s Project Fear 2014 work.

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2017/07/14/michel-barnier-childrens-commissioner-brexit/

      “A disgusting political lie”: EU parents respond to the Children’s Commissioner’s letter to Michel Barnier

    186. Famous15 says:

      The cartoon? Would you descrbe that as a tractor? No I am not a Quizmaster.

      RE mixed political romance I once had a Liberal (long ago) girlfriend but it did not last .She lied too often.

    187. Valerie says:

      It’s pathetic to hear Hammond say, it’s not just Public Sector workers who are low paid, so is private sector.

      So, who is that paying low wages? Their frigging tax dodging share holding friends, and they can do so with impunity, because they have dismantled Unions, and employment laws.

      It makes me sick they can blithely trip out this crap and no challenge. The low wage economy has been a creation of successive governments, and now they complain of Low productivity making UK less competitive.

      It beggars belief.

      Uk, and England in particular has never been able to pay their way, due to pillaging and plundering other countries for hundreds of years.

    188. Legerwood says:

      twathater says:
      16 July, 2017 at 3:19 am
      @ Legerwood 11.10 pm

      “”…I was asking if anyone had done any research to ascertain if there was any correlation between the influx of incomers related to the increase in waiting times

      We are all aware that the MSM don’t do research to qualify their reports ,but merely engage in scaremongering””
      ……………

      I sincerely hope no one ever does the research that you suggest. It would be a disgraceful abdication of everything the NHS, and everyone who works in it, stand for.

      The waiting times are subject to a whole range of factors and are not down to any single group and to try to suggest that is the case is not acceptable.

      In this specific instance the Information about the small number of patients waiting for a year or more came from a Freedom of Information request submitted by the Tories then put out as a press release which was published by the MSM but without context as usual.

      Trying to turn this into an anti-incomer issue as you are trying to do is as much an attempt at scaremongering as you accuse the media of doing.

    189. jimogroats says:

      New season, with cosplay in the news, is it wrong to mention Arlene as Ramsay Bolton ?

    190. colin alexander says:

      @Petra

      “Chris Stephens, a frontbench SNP Westminster MP, claims the party must adopt a more left-wing and radical agenda if it is to win back votes which went to Jeremy Corbyn and Labour.” reports the Herald 16.7.2017.

      Oh! Is that a criticism of current SNP policies and strategies? He must be MI5, GCHQ, 77th Brigade or a plain old “Yoon traytor” according to some people.

      I can answer how to vote, not who, but what to vote for:

      Vote YES, if the question is: Should Scotland be an independent country.

      Vote Yes, if the question is: In the UK, should Scotland’s Parliament have the final say in all matters affecting Scotland, including deciding which powers Holyrood has?

      If it’s STV PR voting:

      State your preferences 1 to 3:

      Scotland should be an independent country? – 1

      Scotland should remain part of the UK, but The Scottish Parliament has the final say on matters affecting Scotland , including deciding which powers the Scottish Parliament has? – 2

      Should Scotland remain part of the UK with Westminster deciding which powers the Scottish Parliament has? – 3

      There are no elections in the pipeline, so I can’t advise how to vote in an election.

    191. Legerwood says:

      O/T
      Article in today’s Sunday Herald about the huge increase in spending at the Scottish Office. Seems to be mostly on ‘communications’ and increased significantly in the last year.

      Sorry cannot do link since it is behind pay wall.

    192. Hamish100 says:

      The attack on the Tories should continue through the summer recess and into autumn.

      Attack their austerity – unless you are with the DUP and right wing nut jobs

      Attack their little englander approach to equal nation status

    193. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 16 July, 2017 at 8:45 am:

      “OT – GOLF: What is going on with BBC reporting on the Scottish Open? Should it not be the Great British Open? Why are the lead players described as English? Should they not be TeamGB.

      I’m not a golf nut but I believe the BBC are innocent for once.

      I believe, and I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong, that there is both a Scottish Open and a British open Golf open Tournament. For all I know there may also be an English Open.

      I think the term, open in this context is that it is open to professionals and amateurs. You’ll really need to ask a golf nut for accurate information.

    194. achmony says:

      I used to enjoy reading the diverse comments contained in this blog, but that was until it became infected by one ‘Colin Alexander’. I suggest that this insideous troll should be ‘exterminated’ forthwith . I appreciate that it is not the policy of Wings to debar reasonable and even negative comment, but I for one can no longer tolerate the voluminous and absolute s**** proferred by this individual. If nothing is done about it, I for one, will be withdrawing my support for Wings over Scotland. Why provide this troll (him/her?) with the oxygen of publicity? It is certainly not in the interest of our independence.

    195. Flower of Scotland says:

      Just roll past anything Colin Alexander says, I do.

      Keep doing what you’re doing, the rest of you. Colin is deliberately trying to break threads. You see it all the time in the National and social media.

      Cut off the oxygen and the troll just dies away.

      Great wee cartoon, as always, Chris.

    196. Another Union Dividend says:

      Legerwood

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15413665.Calls_for_inquiry_over_six_fold_rise_in_cost_of_David_Mundell_s_Scotland_Office_army_of_spin_doctors/

      Hopefully the National will have this on front page to-morrow as BBC / Yoon Press will ignore this Scotland Office scandal which has fewer responsibilities as more powers are devolved.

      The Mundell-controlled UK government Scotland Office department spent £686,166.29 of taxpayers’ money in 2016/17 on spin doctors, over half a million pounds more that in 2010/11 when the David Cameron-controlled coalition came to power. That’s over a quarter of a million pounds more in one year.

      They also increased social media spending from £1000 a month in February to £12000 in March just before May called the general election. Coincidence or what?

    197. colin alexander says:

      @Flower of Scotland

      “You see it all the time in the National and Social media”.

      Mince.

      I haven’t written in the National for several days. Even then it’s been very occasionally, as hardly anyone – except SNP types -reads the National anyway.

      It’s mainly the Herald I wrote in preceding and during the election campaign and I’ve sometimes posted them on here, so no secrets about what I wrote.

      What Social media? I’m not even active on social media – except here. If someone has the same name, and is disrupting debates, it’s not me.

      I agree, if people don’t like my comments, skip past them. Likewise, as I will do with yours from now on and maybe some others who falsely accuse me of being a troll or Unionist or just plain insulting.

      People are entitled to enjoy the mutual backslapping “SNP perfect” fantasy bubble if that’s their thing. Even if the voting statistics say otherwise.

      If you don’t want to debate the reality of the situation, please people, do skip my comments and avoid referring to me or answering me. I’m happy with that, thanks.

      PS Brownie points for commenting without the use of obscenities.

    198. Not a British Open. It is ”The Open”. Always advertised as the Open.

    199. Legerwood says:

      Brexit. Interesting article by Sir Gus O’Donnell in today’s Guardian/Observer

      http://archive.is/8A7NN

      Worth a read.

    200. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I used to enjoy reading the diverse comments contained in this blog, but that was until it became infected by one ‘Colin Alexander’. I suggest that this insideous troll should be ‘exterminated’ forthwith . I appreciate that it is not the policy of Wings to debar reasonable and even negative comment, but I for one can no longer tolerate the voluminous and absolute s**** proferred by this individual. If nothing is done about it, I for one, will be withdrawing my support for Wings over Scotland. Why provide this troll (him/her?) with the oxygen of publicity? It is certainly not in the interest of our independence.”

      I think Colin’s talking complete shite, but I can see no justification for banning him. He has an opinion I disagree utterly with, but I don’t see it being expressed in offensive or trolling terms, and I don’t appreciate people attempting to blackmail me on my own site.

    201. yesindyref2 says:

      Chamberlain: “Peace for our time”

      May: “Farce for our time”.

    202. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 10:32, Another Union Dividend @ 11:38:

      They also increased social media spending from £1000 a month in February to £12000 in March

      Hmmm, I wonder if some of that dosh is coming this way, eg. in the shape of Colin the Garrulous Gish Merchant.

      Also coincidence or what…?

    203. yesindyref2 says:

      Back in the old UseNet days, I was asked to be a moderator for a couple of new groups to be set up as moderated as an alternative to the main group which was very busy and as always, a lot of off-topic and/or argumentative postings, filled with a few flames as well. The usual.

      I politely declined as the first person I’d have had to moderate would have been myself. Often!

    204. Al Dossary says:

      If someone is talking complete shite – maybe respond once or twice. But if the complete shite continues daily, on thread after thread, then as has been said – ignore it. We are our own policemen so to speak.

      O/T also about finances. In just the first 2 weeks of campaigning the Tory party received £6 MILLION in donations during the election, compared to £3M to Labour.

      http://www.datasmoothie.io/@datasmoothie/political-party-funding/

      Over the course of the campaign it was some £12.5M and £4.8M respectively. By all accounts, the Tory party bought the election with the help of their tax dodging friends. Period.

    205. K1 says:

      Stu?

      Pretty fucking puhlease?

      As with many on here ah totally agree wi you, that he does indeed talk total fucking shite, ye cannae debate wi someone as smug, condescending and refers to ‘snp types’ as if some sort of collective virus, in any reasonable terms, who has now reverted to telling everyone to ‘scroll past’ his ain posts, but if we dae that pretty soon we’ll just be scrolling past aw the btl comments as it’s become the the Colin fucking Alexander blog btl?

      On the basis of stewartb’s calculations he’s literally over running the fucking place with his constant ‘me me me’ schtick, so whilst he doesn’t meet your criteria in terms of ‘offensive’ or ‘trolling’, does he not at least merit a fucking small hammer, not that ahm blackmailing you either Stu, but it’s worse than trolling cause the fucker knows exactly how to get round your own fucking rules.

      I agree wi the commenters ‘premise’, his off puting and thread breaking pish tests the patience of even your most avid btl readers. He does not stay on topic, diverts, deflects and generally plays the victim…when responded to…commenters have covered his so called ‘points’ over and over until even the most ‘reasonable’ commenters are now resorting to telling him to fuck off wi his dissembling shite.

      Please consider this aspect Stu. It’s not ‘strictly’ trolling, it is however utterly draining, distracting and turns every MT btl intae a rancorous pile of shit.

      🙂

    206. K1 says:

      That makes complete sense, as you’re pretty much the one who has encouraged him the most. Well done you, ya big ‘independista’.

      *eyeroll*

    207. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      Thanks for your responses round 8 this morning, especially the linked article, which pre-dates the time I started reading Wings regularly.

      It refers to two phrases containing the A-word, and there are many others that could be constructed, so presumably it’s simpler to automaticallly replace the word every time.

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      You’re another 77th brigader, bought and paid for.

      *sigh*

    209. sinky says:

      Sunday Times Scottish economic scribe Michael Glackin refusing to accept recent GP figures but happily used them last time to attack SNP / Scots Government.

    210. Meg merrilees says:

      Caught the tail end of a Catalonia discussion on the radio whilst driving at lunch time.

      An English guy was competently defending Catalonia and her bid for Indy until he likened it to the Scottish situation.
      At this point, the Spanish gov representative volunteered the information that there was no similarity because:

      The Scottish Independence referendum was all about a situation where one country has been conquered by another country and this is not the case in Spain.

      So there you have it!

    211. K1 says:

      Yesindyref2 once again you reveal you’re petty minded smearing tendencies as if to ‘undermine the poster’ as a means of deflecting from what the poster is pointing out. It’s a verifiable fact that you have encouraged Colin far more than any other Winger on here, over the past few weeks.

      You’re a nasty wee shite when any criticism comes your way and you hold grudges yesindyref2 because you have taken comments so personally.

      And what’s with replying to me, you stated that you woul be ignoring my posts? Please continue to do so, I on the other hand made no such stupid immature comment, regarding addressing your ridiculous (at times) posts.

      As for referring to me as 77th, you went really low there, keep it up yesindyref2…others can see our posts too.

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings K1, I’d happily totally ignore you completely, but you keep stalking me, alluding to me without my moniker. But here’s your own posting:

      ——————-
      “That makes complete sense, as you’re pretty much the one who has encouraged him the most. Well done you, ya big ‘independista’.

      *eyeroll*”
      ——————–

      physician heal yourself, all I did was do the same to you, as you did to me. Check out your ‘independista’ in quotes. Are you so brainless you can’t see that you have restarted the offence game? Well, are you so brainless?

      And look at the result, you’ve gone off on one – again! You give it out, but can’t take it yourself. Well, what a sad person you are. As for “grudge”, I don’t care about you in the slightest, don’t respond except to yet another personal attack on me, don’t make constant references aimed at you, unlike you. If you have a grudge against me, take it to your psychiatrist – I’m not one, and can’t help you I’m afraid. You clearly need help.

      Leave me alone. Stop stalking me, you’re boring my hole off, and a complete waste of space.

    213. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1, indyref2,

      Dear friends, have you thought that a mutual falling-out is just what The Gish Galloper is hoping to achieve? I think you both had valid points to make, and we all at times do make them very forcefully, but let’s keep the big picture in mind, and not let the actual little shits win.

      I enjoy both your postings. However, far better to keep them focussed on our real opponents, n’est-ce pas?

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      Absolutely. For my part I promise faithfully never to reply to K1 again, nor to make direct or indirect allusions to it. If any are made by K1 I shall just refer to it by link to this posting itself and say “stet” as my one word answer.

      Anyone can then see for themselves what is going on.

      Will K1 do the same?

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS

      Like this (posting bookmarked):

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-power-grab/comment-page-1/#comment-2284043

      “stet”

    216. K1 says:

      ‘Jings K1, I’d happily totally ignore you completely, but you keep stalking me, alluding to me without my moniker. But here’s your own posting:’

      That is a total fabrication and a lie yesindyref2. Show me the evidence of this ‘campaign’ against you? It’s so over the top as to be quite frightening that you are going to this degree of made up garbage to smear my name on here yesindyref2?

      Your response to Robert’s reply and the level of drama that you are pouring into your rhetoric is staggering.

      I pointed out something that was blatantly true regarding the Colin posts yesindref2? What is so ‘dreadful’ about that one comment that it allowed you to launch into this ‘victimisation’ tirade? It is you who is actually ‘attacking’ me personally at every turn, all the while you will not address the veracity of that one point that I made? Instead choosing to fabricate completely false allegations regarding my ‘intent’ in a comment that I made to you about a very specific subject that a few of us responded to on the back of the Rev’s comment.

      You’re response to me was not anything close to what I had intimated about your part in maintaining a regular discourse with Coilin on here, you smeared me outright yesindyref2 on the back of that comment?

      You literally accused me of ‘being bought and paid for’ 77th, how is that even comparable to my comment toward ‘your name’? But you justify this intimidatatory response to me on the back of lies that you’ve conjured up in your mind? Because there is no record on Wings, there is no evidence to support your outrageous assertions against my character, instead you resort to high drama as if you are dealing with some ‘monstrous’ assault from me.

      And I’ve to sit back while you rubbish my good name on Wings, and no one says anything about that, on what evididence are you basing your fantasy projection that i am ‘stalking’ you?

      There is none, and you know what yesindyref2, that you have determined this is the best and only way to avoid responding to anything I may have discussed with you, to make out that there is a personal agenda from me, is a sad indictment on your own character here.

      I cannot fathom a mind so insecure because I questioned your issue on ‘websites’, explained where I was coming from and you literally from that exchange told me that I had been ‘getting at you’ ‘for the past year’, again evidence free accusation, insulted me as you just did with the 77th comment and made out to Robert that you are some reasonable guy needing to take drastic action of ‘ignoring’ this ‘terrible’ person who is ‘stalking’ you?

      It’s beyond belief how far you are prepared to go to avoid addressing comments that you simply ‘don’t like’ but without a shadow of doubt yesindyref2 you stoop to such low and base conduct against another poster whilst claiming they are the one with the problem here?

      Sickening conduct, you will not destroy my name yesindref2, shame on you for this tawdry lying and conniving manipulative pish.

      I’m not some immature twat who writes childish ‘I’m not talking to you anymore’ nonsense stropping off in a huff as if I’m a victim. I’ll continue to respond and note hypocrisy when I see it.

      You’re nasty yesindyref2, that’s a fact.

      —————-

      I appreciate your comments Robert. But as you can see there’s a little more to it as far as yesindyref2 is concerned. I’m addressing that as best I can. It’s got nothing to do with the Gishgalloper per se, I won’t be smeared on Wings, unless yesindyref2 provides clear evidence of his claims I regard everything else he says with suspicion, he’s going to some lengths to make out I’m some sort of ‘stalker’ et al, I will not let that stand unchallenged.

      He needs to retract and apologise for his utterly baseless assertions and refrain from addressing me in the ‘actual’ nasty manner he is doing. Then the ‘fellow’ feeling may have a chance but not on the back of the outrageous pish he is posting today.

    217. Legerwood says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 12.44

      The thought had crossed my mind along with a few thoughts as to how the Scots Tories got the money for all the leaflets they spewed out during LE and GE

    218. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Socks.

    219. K1 says:

      I will not be complying with yesindyref2’s demands regarding what I comment on, on Wings. He is not the moderator on this site, eh?

      😉

    220. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      No, that’s Thepnr’s job.

      *badoom-tish*

    221. Thepnr says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      No, that’s Thepnr’s job.

      *badoom-tish*

      Badoom-tish sounds like pish, does it for me.

    222. Sinky says:

      sinky says:
      16 July, 2017 at 2:42 pm Should read

      Sunday Times Scottish economic scribe Michael Glackin refusing to accept recent GDP GROWTH figures but happily used them last time to attack SNP / Scots Government.

    223. twathater says:

      @ Legerwood 16 July 10.26 am

      “”…I was asking if anyone had done any research to ascertain if there was any correlation between the influx of incomers related to the increase in waiting times

      ” I sincerely hope no one ever does the research that you suggest. It would be a disgraceful abdication of everything the NHS, and everyone who works in it, stand for.”

      I must ask where in the first para did I suggest that the incomers were the cause of the increase , I also must ask how this information would be a disgraceful abdication of everything the NHS, and everyone who works in it, stand for.

      Surely any and all investigation must be conducted to ascertain the cause of the increase in waiting times as you yourself allude to below

      “The waiting times are subject to a whole range of factors and are not down to any single group and to try to suggest that is the case is not acceptable.”

      I never at any time accused a single group of being the cause

      “Trying to turn this into an anti-incomer issue as you are trying to do is as much an attempt at scaremongering as you accuse the media of doing.”

      I take exception to your accusation that i am trying to turn this into an anti-incomer issue , as i stated twice previously and will re confirm i have NO animosity to any English , Welsh , Irish or EU incomers , apart from people who have moved to Scotland to take advantage of the many benefits in Scotland due to the competence and proper management of the SNP SG yet have the audacity through a misplaced misguided sense of British nationalist mindset to deny and subvert Scotland’s right to self determination
      I have no time for these selfish britnats and would gladly show them where the road south is so that they could re enter their version of nirvana , i am more concerned about the impact their selfishness is having on all aspects of tory policies in Scotland

    224. yesindyref2 says:

      @twathater
      Worth a read of this:

      https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/news/2017

      “Scotland’s population continued to increase between 2015 and 2016.”

      I think also the number of deaths has dropped, which shows a healthier lifestyle perhaps, but also better and more effective treatment.

      Perhaps the problem with resources goes back to what I was posting about in a previous thread about Barnett and the block grant. There’s a base increase / decrease on population, but if a substantial increase in population isn’t taken into account, then the block grant per capita drops with it.

      So yes, incomers, whether English, Polish – or Scots returning from foreign climes, helps to swell the population but also decrease the spending per capita, before the next adjustment can kick in.

      If of course we were in full control and reciept of all taxation and other revenues, these would automatically increase with the influx to compensate. At the moment it’s next year before estimates (not actual figures) kick in. Censuses are only carried out every 10 years I think.

      Like needing immigration itself because of our ageing population, this relative drop in the per capita block grant at times of good population increase as we’re getting now, is yet another reason for Independence.

    225. yesindyref2 says:

      @twathater
      Re your second point about “selfish” incomers, they spend money when they’re here, and contribute to the economy. Specially if they have good private pension provision. If the rUK was out of the EU, but iScotland in the EU, my feeling is that the rUK would continue to pay their state pensions, and would probably have to be responsible for their health costs on a reciprocal basis, unless they’re fully entitled to be Scottish citizens.

      It would need in-depth analysis to show whether in that case they would be nett providers, or a nett cost. Which is roughly what you were asking at the beginning.

      But a similar situation would arise to previously “native” Scots living in England, Spain, Portugal, wherever – as a balance.

    226. twathater says:

      yesindyref2 9.05pm

      I was responding to legerwoods assertion that i was targeting incomers , as i have stated i have no probs with anyone from anywhere if they assimilate and integrate within Scotland I will just not accept people who want to tie Scotland into a damaging union for another 310 years to ensure access to the multiple resources required for their existence , whilst denigrating and humiliating the very people who should be benefiting from these resources
      The STV news was sensationalizing the increase in SNHS waiting times without any reference to causation , only to denigrate the SNHS and the SNP SG

    227. gus1940 says:

      Last week’s publication of the Employment Figures had an interesting figure on which little or no comment has been made so far – namely that in spite of unemployment falling the number of economically inactive people i.e. not looking for a job had increased.

      Surely one of the reasons for this is the number of English people retiring to Scotland to take advantage not just of the cheaper house prices but the measures put in place such as free prescriptions and Social Care.

      A point I have never seen mentioned is that while there is a number of English people taking up jobs in Scotland a significant number of said incomers are economically inactive retirees. Are any figures available re this.

      Another significant point is that the number of Scots retiring to England must be very small in comparison – most Scots going to England do so to find jobs. and compared with retirees coming here are far less of a cost on the NHS and Social Services.



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