Wings Over Scotland

Brilliant Chris, as always.

One of your very best Chris, and that ‘best’ is already outstanding. Bravo!

Spot on Chris. Welcome back.

I wonder if that yellow sack contains the ringfenced £660,000 in gold coins?

duncanio…

“I wonder if that yellow sack contains the ringfenced £660,000 in gold coins?”

No. It does however contain 13 pieces of silver, an MI5 identity card in the name of someone called Sturgeon, a carefully folded Union Flag and a file market “TOP SECRET” bearing the title “How to Destroy the SNP”.

Brilliant ?

Another zinger Chris: encapsulates exactly what the movement needs to do.

The big question however is where do we go from here? Sadly it’s unlikely we can expect the SNP to disappear overnight: the winnets will still cling on for dear life for some time yet and we’ll still have to deal with them, even if they (hopefully?) come to accept that their influence on the movement is much reduced.

As others pointed out yesterday, Alba needs to up its game. If it doesn’t demonstrate in the run up to the Holyrood election in 2026 that it can hoover up the section of independence support which will not vote for or support the SNP under any circumstances it is finished.

It needs to come out fighting and stop making the kind of unforced and frankly pretty stupid political errors it has been making in the run up to this election. Its structures need to be reformed, OMOV brought in, and it needs to try and attract back some of those it has alienated if it’s not to be seen as just a new SNP, or Alex Salmond’s creature.

There’s a small and closing window for this to be done if the party is not to sink in to irrelevance.

Hi there, Hatey McHateface:

Nothing corrodes like charisma!

As the ( angel ) dust settles around the SNP crash-scene , the * vehicle * lying upturned in a ditch , wheels spinning madly/pointlessly , the nine surviving cretins , puppets n plants crawling from the wreckage , giving praise to the God of Grift , is it to be a case of …..

” right , that’s that distraction over , now let’s spend the next two years being distracted by whatever pitiful efforts are likely to be proffered by Nu SNALBA ” ? .

I for one have no intention of being so distracted .

If the Political Party panjandrums can’t see the reason * newborn * entities like Reform have outperformed the SNP/ALBA/ISP./I4Is in this G.E is because – hod the front page ! – they are addressing the issues that people are ACTUALLY concerned about – not the rarefied esoteric psycho/socio/political brain-cabbage that obsesses the ” Prog ” Clownocracy and is being , more-or-less adopted by all the others – those Parties/Individuals will not prosper until they understand what’s happening .

This is not to advocate the adoption of Farage-style phony ” man of the people ” Personality Politics ” ( though , fck knows , it seems to work ) and crude , broad-stroke , simplistic interpretations/panaceas of/for the truly awful state of U.K Politics and the * country * as a whole – if such a fragmented area can be described as a ” whole ” .

Salmond et al need to stop shiteing-it about MSM reaction/s and begin to articulate a defiant , unapologetic , engaging Nationalism – embrace it as one of the engines of Liberation n forget the jejune , watery * Civic * version ; or , at least , de-emphasise the latter and emphasise the former .

Civic Nationalism is for AFTER Independence . Not BEFORE it .

” More of the same ” will lead to , yip …..more of the same worthless , unproductive ” we lost the game , but what great supporters we had ” failures . Fuck that for a game a sodjers .

If that’s all that’s on offer , count me oot . TKO’d be timidity

Excellent work as ever , C.C .

should have sturgeon hanging on to the bottom of the bag, in her campervan….with brexit stickers on the side…

Spot on Mia, our democracy is a sham, an illusion, and if we want to be free we need to rise up as the sovereign Scots we are. Let’s face it, ALBA are going nowhere and seem to fall into the trap of still wanting to work with and adopt similar policies and political attitudes to the utterly failed SNP.

A complete clear out is required and while we organise ourselves at grass roots let’s hope someone who is sincere about Independence fills the void, the vacuum that is Scottish politics. Meanwhile, let’s see what a mess Labour makes in general and specifically here in Scotland.

In all sincerity, I think there is a bigger problem than the SNP.

It’s also an apolitical point, although I believe there is an asymmetric disadvantage to Scotland which would end if the problem was addressed.

The problem is the extent to which most ordinary people are almost completely disengaged with our politics and government. Their grasp of vital issues is depressingly superficial, and worse, their appetite to learn more is largely non existent. They are, to all intents and purposes, switched off.

People aren’t disgusted by Sturgeon’s betrayal of Scotland because great hordes of people aren’t even aware that it happened.

It’s not an attention span thing, they’ve not forgotten a thing, but an attention ‘depth’ thing. There are just not questioning the things around them.

People don’t vote for ALBA because most of the people are not alert to the need for doing so. What use is an emergency response when nobody is alert to the emergency?

I believe support for Independence hovering around 50% is less politically charged than many think, and may be closely related to a level of awareness rather than a political conviction. You can’t unlearn a thing once you see it for yourself.

Right now, 24 -7, Scotland is being suffocated because the media is awash with pacifying indoctrination and nobody is properly alert to it.

Doesn’t it jarr when you hear some mouthpiece on the TV whining about the SNP being obsessed with Independence? Wait. What? The same SNP which has done the square root of fk all to promote Independence for the last decade? So who is that propaganda specifically aimed at? Think about it. They’re not giving the people news, they’re topping up their medication. Take your medicine Mr Murphy.

Think about the Matrix movie. Sorry to alarm you folks, but “we” few who question what we’re being spoon fed, are the select few who are unplugged from the Matrix. The vast majority of Scotland’s people are not.

This phenomenon, and whether it can be defeated and the greater mass of us unplugged, will have much more bearing on Scotland’s future than the fates of any number of shallow political non-entities.

Scotland needs first it’s Independence message primed and ready to broadcast succinctly and emphatically, but then the Nation needs some kind of defibrilation to awaken peoples’ awareness.

There’s a strange phenomenon, related to smoking of all things. Nicotine is one of the world’s most addictive substances, it’s true, we all know it, but it’s also true it’s one of the easiest addictions to break. After 24-48 hours, the addiction to the drug is broken. There’s no cold turkey tremors or DT’s. Smokers fail to stop smoking because they’re addicted to the habit of smoking, not the nicotine.

I think Unionism works the same way. It has seduced many on a passive, habitual basis, but the addiction has a very weak hold on the subject.

If we want to alter Scotland’s currently depressing trajectory, we need “something” which reaches out to the ordinary people and shakes them out of their stupor. This is the objective we must achieve, but made more difficult because “our” media is the Great anaesthetist in chief, who is absolutely determined to keep Scotland docile, despondant, and subdued.

Do not swallow their narrative. Question everything they say.

I am also profoundly suspicious whenever I hear the SNP “narrative” that there’s no lawful route to Independence. For one thing it’s not true. For two things, illegality cuts both ways yet Westminster does what it likes. And for the third thing, this narrative seeds that same old despondency and pacification. Do you see it yet?

Robert Hughes @ 9:52 am

“Civic Nationalism is for AFTER Independence . Not BEFORE it .”

Indeed Robert, this was also my finding from the research for the book ‘Doun-Hauden’. A colonised and hence oppressed people need to focus on their liberation first as ‘the most urgent priority’ – postcolonial theory and extensive imperial history confirms they certainly cannot depend on the se***er / colonialist.

The SNP’s deceitful diversion into ‘Progressive’ bull forms part of a colonial strategy designed to block independence; it needs to be jettisoned from the liberation balloon if Scotland is to ‘rise and be a nation again’, i.e. nae langer haud doun:

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

To those putting their faith in non-party, non-parliamentary and/or legal routes to indy, all I can say is good luck. I look forward to seeing what progress you make, because thus far, for all the brickbats about Alba’s lack of progress, I’ve seen precisely zero from all these proposed “cunning plans for indy” types to convince me that they’re going to succeed where new entrant parties have (so far failed).

Given that you faith in your chosen solutions is (or should be?) strong, when should we expect to see progress?

I mean, those of us who think progress can and will come through conventional means will be focusing on building up support for Holyrood 2026 elections. That might work, or it might not. There are, as others have already pointed out, 500,000 Scots voters looking for a new political home.

However, since those disillusioned with the current system insist we don’t need to bother with tiresome details like political parties, elections, referendums or demonstrating a clear majority with a vote, presumably you’ll have some timescale in mind and a plan about how and when this novel approach is going to deliver majority support?

You’ll also be able to show how that majority will be mobilised to propel us to the sunny uplands of a new independent Scottish republic recognised by the international community.

Let’s be having it….

Stephen Gethins seat is in the new consultancy of Arbroath and Broughty Ferry traditionally the opposition came from the Tories however this one takes in the traditionally Labour voting Dundee East so it is difficult to say whether the Labour showing was Tories voting tactically or voters turning against Independence.

The SNP website today claims they have 10 mps, not 9?

Well said Mia.

Ellis

You weren’t here for 2014 so do be quiet. The people voted for an independence referendum. The ppl made Indyref. The ppl also had a cunning plan for devolution & a Scottish parliament too. So do STFU about yer naysaying over shortcuts & cunning plans. You weren’t even fucking here.

Great cartoon Chris.

I’m with Mia. Ditch them all. A convention is the answer & has DELIVERED RESULTS & MOMENTUM before & will do so again without a single politician in sight until it’s time for one.

“Well done Nicla, well done!”

Yes, robertkknight, well done to her, Swinney, Yousaf, the vow man, the vietnam group, Peter Murray, Michael Russell, Robertson, Smith, Donaldson, Black, Blackman, Blackford, etc, because all of them had a role to play in the deliberate destruction of the party and their consistent refusal to let the people of Scotland exercise their fundamental and legitimate right to self-determination.

It is difficult to look retrospectively now to the trajectory of this political fraud and not reconcile it with her now becoming the darling of the establishment and its propaganda mouthpieces. Same goes for teflon woman Liz Lloyd.

When did real Scottish nationalists become darlings of the British establishment? Only when they ceased to be a threat to the establishment, or rather they were never seen as a threat in the first place.

Because, other than destroying the SNP and ensuring that Scotland went nowhere during the roller-coaster of brexit, what exactly have this woman’s achievements been to justify her becoming so popular with the establishment’s propaganda mouthpieces? I see none.

The destruction of the SNP was no accident. It was not incompetence either. It was by design. The sooner we accept this and stop mourning the loss of the SNP, the sooner we can move forward. The soon we accept it, the sooner we can stop being fooled again with the same strategy.

The SNP was finished on the 14 November 2014. What has maintained the SNP alive in the polls is simply voters’ loyalty and inertia. A loyalty that the Sturgeon’s SNP did not deserve, as she showed no loyalty whatsoever to her own country, never mind pro-independence voters.

Sadly, it takes a while for the voting mass to catch up with what is really going on. GE 2024 was the turning point when that inertia stopped moving the SNP forward, but we should their vote will decrease even further in 2026 and if the political frauds sitting in Westminster on behalf of Scotland and in HOlyrood keep Scotland welded to England for their own benefit, it will go down even further in 2029.

What the political fraud Sturgeon was doing was simply managing that inertia on behalf of the British establishment, because at that point, SNP and the pro-independence vote were welded together. Sturgeon and co kept the charade up to ensure a decoupling between SNP and pro-independence vote did not take place. That is the only way the British establishment could keep credibly deploying the pretend that a defeat of the SNP means independence is not a priority. The worse thing that could happen to the establishment is an increase in the proportion of pro-independence support among the establishment unionist parties’ voting ranks.

I have to be honest. I am not sure how Mr Salmond could not see this political fraud for what she was already in 2014. Because, quite frankly, it does not take very long to realise there is something rather fakeish, vindictive, self-indulgent, over-confident, arrogant and narcissistic about Sturgeon as soon as she opens her mouth and speaks for a few minutes.

Looking retrospectively to her tenure, the repetitive soundbites, the carefully studied voice inflections when mentioning certain words were kinda obvious. Her speeches sounded fresh the first time round, but repeating the same year after year with different wording and not doing anything despite having every opportunity to do so, quickly became stale. This would not have been missed by somebody as astute as Mr Salmond.

I am not sure what the real reason for Mr Salmond to resign in 2014 was. Looking retrospectively, you cannot say by any stretch of imagination that he suffered a defeat in 2014. He managed to bring the pro-independence vote from 23% in January 2013 to over 50% in 2014. I am of the opinion the official 2014 referendum result was rigged and that over 50% remained until 8 May 2015.

Looking retrospectively, his resignation in 2014 was the main lever that ensured Scotland would be forced into a cul de sack and to bypass the best opportunities for independence given at the most turbulent and weaker political points for the UK in 300 years of history.

Mr Salmond’s timely resignation was, in my opinion, also what ensured brexit could happen and what ensured Scotland’s assets could be, yet again, used to keep the bloated England economy afloat.

Looking how quickly the British establishment found neverending sources of cash and managed to recruit enough candidates to deploy political products like UKIP or now Reform in every constituency and manipulate the result in record time, you can hardly believe the resignation of Mr Salmond in 2014 was just a coincidence or simply the product of bad judgement.

I do indeed wonder until what point we are all being taken for fools by the political class and the entity with the biggest vested interest in the ToU to continue which seems to be pulling the strings of the entire political class.

Can we continue talking about democracy when we are being specifically denied the chance to vote for what we most want to vote for?

I think not.

@Geri

More spittle fuelled invective from the hard of thinking. Clear yer screen and calm doon.

Why not try to actually address the points Geri? What difference does it make whether I was here in 2014 or not? The points and issues remain irrespective of my geographical location a decade ago and your pathetic attempts to divert attention from your intellectual nudity.

The referendum was delivered by conventional means, via the support of political parties. It wouldn’t have happened otherwise. The same goes for the Scottish parliament. There may have been a civic movement behind it, but it was actually delivered because the Scottish political parties made it happen.

You and yer delusional mates now insist it’s going to happen in a vacuum and anyway all you moonhowlers insist civic nationalism’s deid anyway.

So still no answers on how “cunning plans for indy” actually work then?

Alert readers are just going to think this post colonial Emperor has no clothes Geri. Stun us wi’ another!

@Mia says:6 July, 2024 at 11:19 am

brexit

Oh dear. Another trip down memory lane.

Look, Mia, the UK joined, so the UK had to leave. If we had a time machine, we could go back to the accession talks, and ensure the EU (the Common Market as it then was) signed separate treaties with England and Scotland (and the rest), so that if one of the Home Nations left, the other or others could remain.

But that’s not what happened at the time. Neither do we have that time machine.

So change the record FFS.

Also, maybe settle a wee bet.

Either you have a portfolio of these posts pre-created, or you’re an AI. Which is it?

Following a lot of geopolitical events it’s now crystal clear how the establishment works. It contains it’s threat by persistent delay.

Delay in the Palestinian State.
Delay in the Minsk agreements.
Delay in Scottish independence.
Delay in Turkey joining the EU.

On & on the list goes and it’s all done to buy them time.

It’s delay, delay, delay to give them time to either regroup, re-arm, keep enough carrots dangling long enough to keep it contained or until support fizzles out & dies through inaction.

This is exactly what Sturgeon played at too. The UK can’t afford to lose it’s (imaginary) world status & it’s seat on the security council as Americas poodle & Sturgeons constant delays & faffing about was textbook with her endless harpies making excuse after excuse of why there was nothing happening with her mandates.

The establishment have used Reform to bring in a labour government because they’ll carry the can for the shit that’s about to be unleashed on Britain.

John Main,
It’s been quite a while now and I’m still waiting for your definition of genocide.

How you can determine something isn’t a genocide when you don’t know what the definition takes some chutzpah.

Of course, I’m sure it’s all the fault of those damn Russkies.

Why are my posts not going through, is any one else having this problem?

“Twenty-odd comments and she’s already off”

My first comment of the day and there you are already. Like a boomerang bad smell. Are you a moss+ad apparatchik? Or just another envoy for the “Friends of the rogue state currently engaged in genocide” multi-political group?

You appear to be far more concerned about USA’s and that rogue state currently engaged in genocide than in Scotland.

If that is the case, what exactly are you doing in a pro-Scotland’s independence political thread? Are you monitoring us to report to somebody else so they can then deploy parties like Reform or dish out faux “anti semi t ism” or faux sex-related accusations to discredit someone and manipulate public opinion?

“Ditch the support losing shit”
No. What exactly made you even think you could order me around?

“Why, exactly?”
Because I do not want to see the self-serving colonial warmonger and pro-genocide wankers in Westminster taking my children to a fucking war with RSS, China and the African countries, for the sake of USA preserving its undeserved and unjustifiable privilege and for the sake of preserving the rogue state in the middle east currently engaged in violent and disgusting genocide.

We learnt on Thursday that Scotland cannot change anything in the UK through the ballot box. So hell yes. God help us because nobody else will.

“Give it your best shot, and stop shooting yourself in both feet”
Nothing signifies that I am in the correct path better than having a pro-genocide, pro-war colonial establishment apparatchik like you going to so much pains to respond to my comment. Thank you for the vote of confidence.

Beautiful art. I like the composition but I’m wondering if it might have been more interesting to put a bunch of shadowy figures in the basket, making their getaway with a pile of cash…

I see people are exchanging ideas on the best way forward again. My inclination is to stay focused on the task at hand right now, wiping out the SNP, and I think we should be careful not to get ahead of ourselves.

We need a leader though, that’s for sure. One that’s smart, influential, respected, totally trustworthy and committed to the cause of independence, who won’t be bought off and won’t be scared to square up to the establishment…

Cometh the hour, cometh the man…

This whole thing is getting to be a total bore but I suppose that’s politics for you.

It would be good to hear some new & innovative ideas.

Ach maybe I’ll just compile another couple of playlists.

1. Goodbye SNP Playlist
2. What the fuck now Scotland? playlist.

Breastplate

Ellis continually puts all his faith in Holyrood 2026.
& All other “cunning plans for indy” is a waste of everyone’s time as well as derogatory comments about moonhowlers.

He also continually fails to grasp that is exactly what delivered an independence referendum & a devolution referendum. A convention. Not politicians, not Salmond, not Westminster. Average Joe public made it happen through political pressure. Politicians merely hijacked it towards the end.

Alba are onto a hiding to nothing. People really need to ditch the idea Holyrood 2026 will be spectacular success. They’ve made ziltch progress but are in fact in reverse.

Go back to basics. Joe Public had success before & will do so again. Alba don’t even have a plan for what exactly will happen if they won a Plebiscite election & the English just simply refused to acknowledge it which would be their prerogative to do because Holyrood is a branch office. A glorified county council. It carries no legal clout to start making demands. Westminster is the seat of power & they’ve just demonstrated they’ve hee-haw chance of even winning a seat. FPTP is no friend to new parties. Reform has success because UKip has been going for over 30 years.

Alex Salmond bangs on about Scots Sovereignty & then ignores

*Alex Salmond bangs on about Scots Sovereignty & then ignores the very groups working on it. Why? There must be a reason?

Ellis also makes wild insinuations that if Alba aren’t an overnight success at Holyrood 2026 then it’s cause the Scots are all spineless & deserve to lose.

Naw, we’re just not stupid enough for a rehash of SNP Part Deux. Imagine winning a Plebiscite & then being told naw. Aye, well done on pissing off an entire electorate AGAIN. LOL. Another waste of everyone’s time.

@Geri 12.39 pm

Ellis continually puts all his faith in Holyrood 2026.
& All other “cunning plans for indy” is a waste of everyone’s time as well as derogatory comments about moonhowlers.

Not all my faith, but most of it, yes because that seems to me – on the balance of probabilities – to be by far the most likely route to achieving independence in the medium term. I think we can forget the short term for now. I’ve never said no other routes were feasible and have consistently said there are multiple paths which *might* lead to independence.

The $64,000 question is which of the routes will work, and which is most likely to produce results the fastest.

It’s incumbent on you and other moonhowlers who believe in “cunning plans for indy” to show your route is both more likely and faster.

If you don’t want to be labelled a moonhowler then show us the money about how your woo-woo plans are going to work. Put up or shut up.

Average Joe public made it happen through political pressure. Politicians merely hijacked it towards the end.

More magical thinking. Devolution and the Scottish Parliament would still be a pipe dream if it wasn’t for those very political parties you purport to disdain. Non-party routes are a chimera.

Geri,
Without Salmond there would have been no independence referendum as Sturgeon has shown. You can believe otherwise if you wish.
If Alex Salmond was in charge during the last 10 years, I believe we would now be independent. The task was much easier then and Sturgeon didn’t even take a shot at the open goals that were presented to the SNP in this time.

I also understand that this would be contradictory to your thinking that your way is the only way forward and absolutely nothing else will work.
We can all pick our favourite way forward as the one true path but all that means is a lot of people talking and not listening.

As I have said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with contingency plans.
You are, of course, entitled to believe otherwise.

This appeared in The Nationa. the writer is a consultant in Scotland’s NHS and has worked in England’s NHS.

He says what many know already. That Scotland’s NHS is far better than England’s generally. Further privatisation of Scotland’s health service is on the cards and should be resisted. Build a Convention on that?

link to thenational.scot

“It makes me nervous. What seems like a straight-forward reassurance to not use private healthcare to replace NHS services is not forthcoming. Equally, the failure to move more decisively away from the austerity program of the last failed UK government is also concerning. Overall, I have little confidence that a Labour-led Scotland would either protect or recover the NHS in Scotland adequately.”

Mia,

Sara Salyers is going cown the correct route to independence, not so much the political party route, but a legal challenging route,

Sara is challenging one legal aspect, but there are many many more legal challenges that can be made, and you contribute vastly with you logical sensible approach in raising questions and commenting in you’re posts.

Those that attack sensible and logical arguments and discussions do need calling out for their personal reasons for for being on a pro-Scottish independence site like wings when they seldom contribute to the case but rather try distract to dismiss any plan going forward other than handing our, (The people Sovereignty) over to politics and political parties,

It came to my attention long ago when reading the Scottish “Law Society blog” that just be because Westminster parliament messes with the Articles of the treaty of union, it does not mean it had the legal capacity to do so,

Which belies the truth of how Westminster actually veiws the treaty of union not being set in stone or binding in its context as a international Treaty.
My perception remains that the treaty of union borders on one on the biggest hoaxes played on Scotland due to how Westminster treat it as a joke,
As do most union commentors when they call it ancient guff, and that the rest of the world does not recognise Scotland,

Yet Scotland is one of the most important Countries in the world even today, for without Scotlands parliament being in a supposed union with England parliament all, (All other treaties instantly legally fall since 1707).

I know it well, Geri.

Our NHS is something not to be lost without a battle.

Scotland’s distinct constitutional tradition is best expressed by Lord Cooper, in the case of MacCormick v. Lord Advocate:

“The principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law.”

In the pleadings of the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) in her prorogation case to the UK Supreme Court, it was noted that the 1707 parliamentary Union between England and Scotland may have created a new state, but it did not create one nation.

There was a lull after the SNP got it’s doing, all the usual suspects, with frenetic contortions to avoid addressing the real issue :

the people hate identity politics, especially if promoted at the expense of “the real thing” i.e. independence, so running around all the time with a pride flag saying “we must do more for the trannies” is just going to kill you, in the end; and why should people like it anyway, it is there to offer special rights and protections for special groups and offers nothing to the majority – democracy, hello – is about people getting to vote for their own interests

so, the middle class twat brigade, i.e. bella will, eventually, be giving it – “we weren’t radical enough … it was DELAYS in implementing trannyism uber alles and a police state against hatecrimes, which put the people off”

the doggers blame it on us – wings, rev, salmond – largely and actually “marginalised” but somehow exerting baleful influence from the shadows; reminds me of a theory from the 70s, the soviets had this radio station that continuously transmitted this odd signal on this odd frequency (spy comms, sub comms, early warning radar?) – people wrote books about it claiming it was a mind control device designed to make people in the west, left-wing …

– if only we had such power; I can see them all out there in internet land … “confused” was being really waspish the other day … SMASH THE BRITISH STATE … gather weapons, make kill lists, infiltrate and subvert … all these randos on the internet, crouched over the glow of our computers in the early hours, cloaked like Darth Sidious, cackling … good, good …

“the failure of alba” – politics has tremendous inertia, it takes a lot to get in the game; maybe the BBC will promote alba and do their PR for them, like Farage, that “outsider” they just can’t get enough of. 8th time lucky! What a winner. BBC, all the promotion money can’t buy. Farage is an outsider, with a lot of friends on the inside.

Salmond should stick the boot in, bury them … I agree, I think I have said it, quite a lot; his enemies tried to put him in jail, that I couldn’t forgive. I am sure he could write a book or leak all the info not produced at trial, but that might destroy the SNP forever. I think maybe he worked on the basis of getting “madame mao” and her gang out, then “coming home”, alba being a temporary home; didn’t he get kicked out the SNP early on, then came back in? Which I think has been a big mistake – a clean demolition, soon after he was cleared, would have ended the “smell”.

– but having said that, I think Salmond knows a bit more about politics than me, and we are all just backseat drivers, or fans shouting tactics from the stands.

The SNP and their supporters, you can see the reeking narcissism belching off them :

(WE GOT FUCKED) … er, obviously, IT CAN’T HAVE BEEN ANYTHING WE DID … so, it was OTHER PEOPLE and we DIDNT DO OUR THING FAST ENOUGH … yes, that must be it … skips away happily

destroys The Conundrum of the treaty of union, being treated as an International treaty of union is interesting.

Westminster altering many of the articles of that 1707 treaty and the terms of the agreement and deleting many of them as obsolete as the government of Great- Britain….. commits Suicide as it self destructs pulling the treaty of union rug out from underneath its own feet As it slowly but surely demolishes all the agreement terms and the Articles of the treaty of union.

There are certain terminologies and phrases within the treaty of union that are binding on Westminster parliament an should not be altered or made obsolete if it is taking the treaty of union as a legal International Treaty,

Again one suspects that the parliament in England considers it is the sole participant in the treaty of union, governing for England and Wales

So the G-rea-t S-a-tan-s jackbooted soldiers have have all but been booted out of Airbase 101 in N-ig-er. The (US) will next focus on clearing Air Base 201, a $100-million drone facility near the city of Agadez in central N-ige-r.

The Nia-mey government have made a wise choice in booting out the Y-an-ks, as well as their long time colonial masters the French.

Maybe there’s a lesson for Scots in this.

Geri,
“It would’ve happened with or without the SNP. Someone else would have done it.”
This is quite evidently not true, because it didn’t happen or hasn’t happened any other way.

“they were nowhere near ready on currency, defence, Europe etc.”
Again, the whole point of self determination is to make the decisions, not to worry about whether you’ve made a decision that might be right or might be wrong before you’re in the driving seat.

But to answer your questions on currency, it’s a negotiation process regarding transition, just the same as Defence, Europe or anything else, the important component is that Scotland is at the table representing itself.

This site has been running for some time now and there are people who haven’t worked out that removing England’s thieving hands from Scotland’s pockets is a good thing for Scotland or not.
They have to ask, “if we remove Westminster’s hands from our pockets, who will scratch my crotch”?
It’s slightly depressing, really.

@ James Che

Thank you for your kind words. It is appreciated.

You say that you perceive the treaty of union as one of the biggest hoaxes played on Scotland due to how Westminster treats it as a joke.

I think it was not a hoax. I see it as a frontal attack and Scotland’s MPs refused to protect their country from such attack because they were far too preoccupied with their own financial gain and social status. This is exactly what we have seen for the last 10 years with the SNP. History indeed repeats itself.

We established in the past that while we agree on a lot of things, there are some minor aspects on which our opinions divert a little. I think the matter of the ToU might be one of those things.

Personally, I see the treaty of union as perfectly legitimate. But it is not something Scotland entered in voluntarily and it was most definitely instigated, if not forced, by the monarch through the control she was allowed to hold over Scotland’s parliament and aristocracy.

Those who effected the treaty and the frontal attack on Scotland it represented were the MPs and Peers sitting at Scotland’s parliament. They did so for their very own personal and political gain.

None of them were under any illusion that the people of Scotland wanted that treaty, yet, they abused their position of power to force it down the throats of the people of Scotland anyway. Just like they are doing today. How many of the so called “pro-independence” parties are talking about revoking the Treaty of Union and Act of Union with England? I hear none.

56 anti-union MPs was a mandate to end that darn treaty. Yet, those 56, then 35 and then 45 abused their power to continue preserving that treaty against the democratic will of the people of Scotland by keeping Scotland trapping in this toxic union.

Considering how many resources Scotland has, the blame for every single child and adult in Scotland below the poverty line lies on the lap of each and every single one of Scotland’s MPs and MSPs, as it is them who are ensuring the ransacking of Scotland’s assets continues at pace.

I do not believe it is “Westminster” who is playing the joke on us. It is our own MPs and MSPs who have been doing so, for their own personal gain, for the last 300 years.

The crown saw the treaty of union in 1706 as its way to ensure a supply of soldiers to England’s wars and also the way to secure control by the English monarch of the Scottish crown.

It is the treaty of union what has been securing the right of the Hanover line to Scotland’s crown since 1706. Because of this, I found rather hilarious those here who keep demanding that we stop looking at “old documents”! It is precisely that “ancient document” what entitles the current monarch to call themselves King, that not sovereign, of Scots. So I would happily say to them: “by all means, go ahead, ditch that old document that you have so much contempt for and ditch with it the right of the English crown to keep controlling Scotland’s”

The actual con here is that the English crown is empowering England’s part of the UK parliament to abuse, to oppress Scotland and to impose on it absolute rule. We see this with every single law, which is unfair to Scotland, that directly goes against the expressed democratic will of the people of Scotland, or that goes against the majority of the vote of Scotland’s MPs but is still passed as valid in that cesspit of Westminster, then rubber-stamped by the English monarch in what seems a direct breach of the Claim of Right and therefore the ToU, and then enacted by England’s government.

The monarch is not Scotland’s sovereign. We are. So who/what is empowering that monarch to continue rubber-stamping those abusive laws towards Scotland? That will be our own MPs and MSPs, who choose to swear allegiance to that monarch rather than to Scotland and to continue abiding by the Scotland Act, which parachutes an unelected representative of the crown to the middle of our executive cabinet so they can then proceed to hand control to the crown over Scotland’s legislative power thanks to a veto, given by that Scotland Act, over which legislation is debated in Scotland’s parliament chamber. That Scotland Act is empowering the English monarch to exercise absolute rule over Scotland and our MSPs are allowing that to happen.

It is therefore our own Scotland MPs and MSPs who are continuously legitimising the abuse and exploitation of Scotland as a colony.

The treaty is perfectly legal. What I do not think is legal is to use it as the excuse Westminster and the Crown have been using it as to treat Scotland as if it was another colony of the English crown. What I do no think is legal is to enable the continuous violation of the fundamental conditions of the treaty and then insist in looking the other way, like our MPs and MSPs have been doing, to avoid declaring the treaty void and null and risk losing their own privileges.

My problem with Alba’s strategy is that it is the exact same as the one pursued by the SNP. Both strategies hinge around treating Scotland as the subordinate of Westminster and as the property of the Kingdom of England for the sake of preserving the ToU and the privileges of the crown.

Both, Alba and SNP appear to refuse to treat Scotland for what it is: a sovereign state who entered a voluntary treaty of union and therefore can exit that treaty whenever it wants.

Both parties appear to refuse the recognition of the people of Scotland as the real sovereign of Scotland and instead choose to bow to the English monarch.

I found sickening watching the political fraud Sturgeon, as Scotland’s democratically elected FM and representing Scotland, bowing like a minion to the English monarch when it should be the other way round: England’s monarch bowing to Scotland’s sovereign: the people of Scotland.

I also found sickening YOusaf’s cowardice when, after claiming to be a republican, he almost lost his arse running to insult and humiliate the people of Scotland by sending the stone of destiny down south so the English king could sit his entitled arse on it.

For as long as Holyrood remains subordinated to Westminster and to the crown by means of the Scotland Act, anybody wanting to use that parliament to deliver independence will have to continue begging for consent. That consent will never be forthcoming, therefore this is a route that will not succeed.

We have been there, we have done that and it did not work. It is absurd we are pursuing the same again. It did not work not because Scotland did not vote yes, but because yes was not allowed to be seen as the winner, otherwise brexit and the continuous intervention of England’s warmongers in USa’s wars could not happen.

The exact same con trick will happen again if we go for the same route, so for goodness sake, let’s move on and let’s get out of this hamster wheel that is taking us nowhere no matter how fast we keep running.

I know we disagree on this point, James Che, but from all the history books I have read from when the time of the union was enacted and the decade after it, the belief was that the Scottish parliament was still represented by Scotland’s MPs and Peers. They believed they could reconvene the Scottish parliament at any time they wanted. If they did not do so was because they knew doing so would automatically invalidate the treaty and what was seen as worse for them, they would put at risk the right of the Hanoverian line to Scotland’s crown. This was a problem for them because most of those elected to “represent” Scotland in Westminster at the time were aristocrats which had an awful lot to gain financially and in terms of status and connections from being seen as in favour of the crown.

I believe the exact same remains true today. Scotland’s old parliament still lives in Scotland’s MPs, not Scotland’s MSPs for as long as they insist in keep subjugating Scotland to Westminster by abiding to the Scotland Act.

In my view, the only way the Scottish parliament can actually revoke the treaty of union, declare real independence or negotiate independence with the Kingdom of England, Scotland’s real partner, is if the MSPs ditch the Scotland Act and overrule Scotland’s MPs first.

But to do that, they require two things:

1. a mandate to do so by Scotland’s sovereign: the people of Scotland.
2. swearing allegiance to Scotland’s sovereign, not the English monarch.

If we do not see this mandate in the manifesto of any party in 2026, then none of them, in my opinion, will be really pursuing Scotland’s independence. They will be pursuing some variation of devolution or subjugation of Scotland to the English crown.

“Secession” of the “UK” is not independence. It is continuing to subjugate Scotland to the English crown and it is demoting Scotland from the sovereign state it is into a region of the Kingdom of England.

It is not the “UK” government nor the crown who Scotland has to negotiate its independence with. The UK government, just as the crown, are subordinates to the Treaty of Union and therefore subordinates to Scotland. The real partner Scotland has to negotiate its independence with is the Kingdom of England.

For this reason, every time I heard a politician talking about negotiating independence or a referendum with Westminster or the UK government, I immediately switch off because I know they are not really pursuing Scotland’s independence. What they are pursuing is the preservation of the ToU and the right of the English monarch to continue holding control over Scotland’s crown. In my view, they are acting as crown minions, not representatives of Scotland.

Alba’s strategy appears to be relying far too much on votes for the SNP in the constituency vote to create some form of pro-independence alliance.

The SNP has demonstrated for the last 10 years that it is not pursuing Scotland’s independence and worse, it has actively sought to deny the people of Scotland the opportunity to vote for it. It has also demonstrated it has no intention in establish any alliance with Alba.

So this strategy is doomed to fail and will not be anything more than yet another way to make us lose another 5 years of our time. 5 years when the opportunistic British state will continue to drain Scotland of its power and resources and when Starmer’s labour would have made huge inroads into selling Scotland bit by bit through the con of the free ports, would have privatised what is left of the NHS to secure a trade agreement with USA and will have us at the verge of another of USA’s neverending self-serving hegemonic wars.

Personally, I think that, if we are really seeking Scotland’s independence, we need to revoke the ToU and Act of Union with England. For this reason, I believe moving the attention from the GE to the HOlyrood election was a mistake, unless Mr Salmond intends to ditch the Scotland Act and gain a mandate from the people of Scotland to overrule Scotland’s MPs.

For as long as I do not see or hear any political party advocating for such thing, I will continue to be very sceptical of the real intentions of the so called “pro-independence” parties.

Scotland is as much the UK as England is, so the concept that it can negotiate independence with itself is absurd. For this reason, demoting Scotland to the status of a region of the UK so it can be seen as

* subordinated to the UK rather than above it
* seceding from the UK rather than ending it
* preserving the privilege of the English crown over Scotland rather than ending it when the treaty ends
*treating the English monarch as if they were Scotland’s sovereign rather than its own people

should be anathema to any political party genuinely pursuing Scotland’s independence and genuinely seeking to see Scotland as a sovereign independent state in full control over its territory, boundaries, assets, people and trade agreements.

The English Wokes have won this Election. Gains fro Labour, Fib Dooms and Greens tell me they won and won easily. Ironically SNP Wokes got hammered but not all of them.

It turned my stomach to see Sturgeon on the Goggle Box.She is clearly being protected by Brit Establishment right now.

It fucked me off to see Blackman getting re-elected. It fucked me off to hear Mairi Black spouting some shit as well.

Sad to see Angus McNeil not getting re=elected.

The best good point of the night was to see Dougie Ross losing because the White Settlers voted for Reform Nazis and not for him. Oh well.

Obviously with election turn out down significantly that maybe some 40% of “Nationalist/Yes” vote stayed at home totally.

I am Philosophical as Savilles pal Starmer will be a disaster for Scotland and UK.

Oh and being a prophet for a second – Grangemouth is fucked. Starmer will be a Thatcher Mk2 and will be aided and abetted in that by the Wokes.

@Dan says 6 July, 2024 at 4:14 pm

Thanks for the information.

I can’t promise I’ll retain it all.

Personally, I see the treaty of union as perfectly legitimate. But…

I don’t see it as legitimate, because it is fundamentally incompatible with Scotland’s Constitution and always has been, but I concede, what the ToU has in it’s favour is 300 years of largely uncontested recognition and recognised conventions, yet every one of those recognised conventions simultaneously remains fundamentally flawed but the flaws are habitually ignored. Indeed, ignoring the truth is a seedy convention all by itself.

For me, the easy bit is ending the Treaty. There have been so many violations and literal breaches of the Articles of Union that Scotland could cite any one of them to collapse the Treaty as a broken contract. If it could be done authoritatively, Scotland should cite every breach as evidence of the habitual disregard and contempt for Scotland’s rights.

I don’t even think there’s any problem taking public opinion along with us. How would “they” demonstrate that public opinion was not on our side? Hold a referendum? Let them try.

Would there be blood in the streets? I believe not. The outrageous and grotesquely unconstitutional Brexit subjugation was a slap in the face for Scotland, yet outrage came there none. If the people are so docile in subjugation, what obstacle can they be to liberation?

The real obstacle I see is the dirty double dealing beneath the counter we can expect from the fickle International community which is amenable to the UK’s Westminster Government. Shady groups and lobbyists from warmongering Nations want a subdued Scotland, and they will orchestrate objections.

That is why I felt Brexit was vital to the cause; because we’d have secured instant International Recognition from 26 sovereign nations sympathetic to our circumstance. That would given us tremendous leverage, but we pissed it all away very cheaply. Well, Sturgeon did. Imbecile.

I suspect Scotland would yet get adequate International Recognition, but it could be more complicated. EU recognition is not the safe bet it was in the shadow of Brexit, and any BRICS derived recognition will sow division and acrimony which may divide opinion and cloud the issue of recognition.

There’s a lot of work needing to be done. Legwork, influencing, persuading, placating… preparing.

Scotland doesn’t need a lame and Vichy Devolved Assembly. Scotland needs a ballsy and defiant Government-in-Waiting which stands firm and knowledgeable in the defence of Scotland’s abused Constitutional Rights, and works its fingers to the bone along similar lines to the 1980’s style Scottish UN Committee with Willie MacRae.

I believe SALVO are coming close to doing that, but we need more, bigger, better, etc, etc, etc… SALVO needs unequivocal support from all quarters, but isn’t getting it… yet.

While I firmly believe the essence of Independence is contained in the above beliefs, believing in the “big game” does not compromise fervent belief in the Little Game. Yes, we should fight elections. Yes, we should contest subjugations. Yes, we should discredit the unconstitutional credentials of the UK Supreme Court and indeed the Scotland Act. Fight and disrupt everything, everywhere. Give Joanna Cherry license to grind Westminster to dust using the supremacy of Scots Law wherever such potency exists.

Independence will be ours once the people know the power of their sovereign birthright. We needs victories, both big and small. It will come as a consequence of our self belief and confidence; the very things Sturgeon has done her level best to destroy.

Hatey McHateface says: at 5:51 pm

“Thanks for the information.

I can’t promise I’ll retain it all.”

Dear John,
Nae bother, jist thought it would be useful to remind you seeing as it has been pointed out to you before. Plus it’s worth remembering stuff like that as you’ll also look marginally less of an arse if you reduce the amount of shite you post. 😉
HTH

Hautey

What you wrote is very depressing Hautey

I suppose you are correct people need to be led and are easily led. The downside of that is they can be led into doing despicable things. They can also be very easily manipulated for example by the media. It’s a sad state of affairs Hautey don’t you think.

You say ‘This place is a good example. It’s only here because of a great man’

Which great man is that? The one who invented electricity television, the computer, html the English language or what?

You say

The comments BTL are a fairly typical example of what happens when you put a bunch egoists in a room without order and leadership — despite the fact that we all are purportedly here as believers in the same cause, for the same reasons, etc.

You seem be calling out for dictatorship. Geri could be just the woman for the job.
She could keep us right telling us what is and isn’t a priority at any particular time.

I would describe the comments on her for the most part as brain storming and I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Sure we are all believers in independence but we don’t know how we can achieve that hence all the different opinions.

It would be handy if a ‘great man’ could come along and tell us how.

We don’t need a leader just someone who knows the secret.

Breeks at 601pm,

Agree with every word. We will never achieve independence by waiting for England to give permission. THAT just isn’t going to happen. When Scotland does decide to end the unwanted undemocratic union treaty (which it can do without England’s permission), from that second onwards, what London thinks of it is irrelevant. England then becomes a foreign country, and has no say. A lot of folk just cannot seem to grasp that. Oh, of course England would not like it, and might threaten all kinds of nonsense, with lots of bluster, but from the point the treaty was ended, they would be acting as a foreign government.

@mia I’m amazed as this praise for Eva Comrey.
Look what happened last time a woman was put on a pedestal
No one is more important than unity.

Kenny always planned to stand in Grangemouth.
Wasn’t that the reason Eva left, because she wanted Alba to put her forward?

Also as someone else said, instead of just getting on with her campaign, she and her supporters called Kenny a carpet bagger, which was disgraceful.
But many believed it, which didn’t help his chance of getting elected.
Not that going by the results, he came close.

Grangemouth more will be the outcome.

Eva and pals were also slagging off Yvonme Ridley for standing in Newcastle.
When Yvonne’s focus was Gaza, disgraceful pettiness IMO

@mia I’m amazed as this praise for Eva Comrey.
Look what happened last time a woman was put on a pedestal
No one is more important than unity.

Kenny always planned to stand in Grangemouth.
Wasn’t that the reason Eva left, because she wanted Alba to put her forward?

Also as someone else said, instead of just getting on with her campaign, she and her supporters called Kenny a carpet bagger, which was disgraceful.
But many believed it, which didn’t help his chance of getting elected.
Not that going by the results, he came close.

Grangemouth more will be the outcome.

Eva and pals were also slagging off Yvonme Ridley for standing in Newcastle.
When Yvonne’s focus was G—, disgraceful pettiness IMO

Posted this again as last time I mentioned a banned name, my comment disappeared

We’re not a colony, we just lack enough people with the balls to put an X on a piece of paper. That’s not colonialism. that just a lack of moral courage.
Ellis

Maybe we lack the balls due to colonialism.

The big problems isn’t the lack of balls it’s the lack of a piece of paper.

I think it’s time we stopped focusing on the SNP and started focusing on Labour at Westminster.

“The international community doesn’t accept Scotland is a sovereign state. Legally it isn’t a sovereign state”

It can revert to the status of a sovereign state at any time of its choosing. The only thing it needs is to force its self-serving MPs to reconvene Scotland’s old parliament and to legitimately revoke the treaty and Act of Union with England, to which Scotland is perfectly entitled to do legitimately.

“The international community may accept the Scots are a people and that they are entitled to self determination in accordance withe the UN charter”

They do. Look at USA, they fully recognise Scotland as a people. How many of them claim to be of Scots (not British, mind) descent? In fact, if you had traveled all over Europe, you will realise the Scottish people are seen as a people all over Europe. You are very disingenuously (and unsuccessfully) attempting to make things look far more difficult than they really are.

“that right is neither automatic or unlimited”
It is automatic and unlimited. The only reason for Scotland not having been been exercising that right is because our own “representatives” both in Westminster and Holyrood have chosen to abuse their positions of power to deny it to us.

“Their recognition will only come if they accept the process used to obtain independence as valid”

There is nothing “not valid” with legally revoking an international treaty which Scotland is legally entitled to do. It is exactly the same thing the UK did with its treaty of union with the EU. Everybody and their dog saw the EU referendum as rigged. Even an English court admitted it was rigged but it could not force Westminster to repeat it because the referendum had been “advisory” therefore it had been really the choice of the UK government to take the result as valid.

“Using a novel, legalistic, non-parliamentary route which doesn’t involve a clear majority voting in favour in either a referendum or plebiscitary elections will be much, much more difficult to achieve”

First of all, the revocation of the treaty is not a “novel” route as you claim it to be. It has been in the minds of MPs and Peers since the union was conceived. If you had read the memories of those MPs and peers like I did, you would realise that at no point they considered a majority of votes was ever needed to either join or end the union. All what was needed, and all what is needed today, is a majority of anti-union MPs with the balls to actually end the treaty and end the union. That is all.

That is also all what the Checks and the Slovaks needed to end their union as “Czechoslovakia”.

“unless we can demonstrate the use of violence or flagrant oppression. We can do neither”
Don’t be ridiculous and leave Gordon’s hyperbole at one side. All what we need is an international court.

“We’re not a colony”
As I have mentioned in the past already, I agree with you. Scotland is not a colony, but the useless self-serving parasites who pass for Scotland’s representatives have allowed England MPs and the English crown to continue treating Scotland as if it was a colony.

“we just lack enough people with the balls to put an X on a piece of paper”
No we don’t. Since 18 September 2014 we have not had the opportunity to put an X by the option we want. This option has been consistently denied to us, election after election after election. And that is colonialism on steroids as a consequence of the lack of moral courage from those who call themselves “Scotland’s” representatives. The crown installing its unelected representative by the back door in the middle of Scotland’s cabinet so it can control both the executive and the legislative powers is a beautiful example of colonialism and absolute rule.

“There’s only one side in this argument making shit up”
Indeed there is, Andy Ellis, your side. It does not matter how much ad hominem and hyperbole you use to decorate your waffle. It remains waffle all the same

Talking about “weirdos”, “incoherent arguments” and “splatter gun super abundance of words” or “spaffing BTL”, I would advise you take a hard look at yourself on a mirror. You will see all those things reflected right back at you.

“No one is more important than unity”

Absolutely. So how was unity pursued by having Mr MacAskill running for the same constituency as Ms Comrie so they were both competing for the same vote?

Sorry, I am afraid I do not see appropriate either or as a sign of true commitment to a political view when somebody in a party pursuing Scotland’s independence chooses to put that on a temporary hold so they can go to stand for Gaza instead at an English constituency.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for Mr McKaskill and for Mr Hanvey. I think they are both great assets to Scotland and very much hope they both get a seat in Holyrood in 2026. But I am sorry to say that move in that constituency didn’t look good and did very little in my eyes to give credence to the “unity for independence” stance of the party.

This is just my opinion as a voter. I am not a member of Alba nor I plan to be.

Mia. If Scotland did what Catalonia did. Had a referendum then declared lindependence. Then set up in Holyrood as an independent government.

It would be up to the Brits to send in the troops. However this is not Catalonia, so the Brits wouldn’t dare send in military police from England to beat the crap out of citizens.

To me the weakness in our government is to act instead of talk. Actions do indeed speak louder than words.

Westminster is quite happy for Scotland to beg and moan. That means there won’t be any repercussions.

A small act of defiance creates the butterfly effect. It only needs the guts to carry it out.

It’s fairly obvious you’re not a member of Alba since you have lots of sleekit digs at AS.
Like further up the thread trying to suggest there were nefarious reasons for AS resignation in 2014.

As I said Eva should have stepped aside for Kenny since she knew he was going to stand in Grangemouth.
So you’ve got that arse about elbow.

Anyway, it makes me doubt your comments as you appear to have an agenda.

I usually scroll past most of your remarks since they’re more like blogs rather than a statement.

Still you believe what you want, I’ll believe what I want.

Mia

Well said on everything.

As for using elections & going through the process of ending the treaty of Union – I agree it’s a complete waste of time because the eejits being elected don’t even know the treaty of union from one end to the other or believe we are Sovereign so how on earth are they expected to remove us from it? They continually think it’s England’s gift to give.

I can’t remember what MSP it was who claimed Scots Sovereignty was *too ambiguous*

A sovereign nation begs no-one for permission or they’re not sovereign at all. I agree, it’s not UDI or everyone would be guilty. In fact we had an ardent Brexiteer confirm to everyone who’d listen that there wasn’t a treaty in the entire world that required a sovereign nation to seek permission from the other side to leave it. Yet #AskAndy still peddles his waffling nonsense. & About the international community – that same community who is complicit in crimes against humanity & can’t quite seem to make up their minds if mass murder by an invader is against the law or not. The yanks are trying to change it to the colonial trick of making a *rules based order* up as they go along depending on who is asking the question.

As for Cherry – well she had ten years in the SNP & didn’t use her status & knowledge of the law to benefit Scotland in any way shape or form. There was nothing stopping her, other than her own position & title of course. She could’ve took them to town over Brexit but chose not to do that either or seek legal opinion. Instead it was Neale Harvey doing the dirty work while Cherry remained delusional she’d stick with the SNP & the sinking ship the rest of us saw coming yrs ago.

The SNP get their arses kicked in the last Scottish constituency to declare.

“The Liberal Democrats have defeated the SNP in the final UK constituency to be declared in the General Election results.

The count in at the Dingwall Count Centre near Inverness finished just moments ago. Angus MacDonald, Scottish Liberal Democrats Highland councillor, has been announced as the new MP.”

Popped over to a couple of other sites with BTL. You’ll know who they are…

The SNP apologists that bide there have absolutely no sense of humour.

They moan about the electoral system and how unfair it is to get 30% of the vote and only 15% of the seats. They don’t seem to recognise their own hypocrisy when you point out in 2017 that the SNP got 95% of the seats on 50% of the vote and not one of them complained. (God forbid you also point out that despite the 56/59 seats, plus 50% of the popular vote and nearly 2/3 voting Remain, Sturgeon’s ‘Stop Brexit’ campaign achieved precisely f*** all in terms of Standing Up for Scotland).

They also cry “Britnat” when you point out that in 7 years, under the living then dead hand of Sturgeon, the SNP went from 56/59 to just 9/57, with 7 of the 9 being marginals.

They really don’t like it when you point out that opinion polls show support for Indy holding at 47%, yet support for the SNP has dropped to 30%.

Yet these facts are chiels that winna ding and all under the control of Sturgeon and her cosen continuity clown-fest which followed.

There’s even a one legged man in an arse kicking contest trying to debate with himself whether “Salmond sleaze” was worse than “Sturgeon sleaze”. I mean, FFS, denial doesn’t even come close!

All I’ve managed to learn from these other sites is that if I wasn’t previously convinced that the SNP was beyond saving, I am now.

Murray is Starmers pet poodle, sent to report on the colonial outpost. “Yes master, can I link your boots master, am I a good licker master?”

Alyn Smith always looked like 10kg of shite pushed into a 5kg bag.

That is my only criticism, the bag is not bursting enough.

Murray will be as welcome as a good dose of the shits.

He should never have been offered that position after his infamous tantrum & public resignation with the last position his imperial masters gave him under Corbyn.

A right wing nut job who despises Scots, devolution & pesky Scots expecting democracy. He’ll be salivating as we speak lacing his jackboots. As Jack would say PRRRRRRICK! Lol

“The UN wouldn’t accept this route: it’s quite simple”

Let me use back at you your very own words in response: ‘You asserting this and it being true are 2 very different things’

“Actually lots of them routinely refer to England when they mean the UK”
Yes, but they recognise very well that the Scottish people and the English people are different, which is the precise point of recognising that the scots are a people. There is no need for them to know the history, or how much devolution Scotland has. They recognise the Scots are a people. I do not know much about the history of China or Korea, but I do know that Chinese and Koreans are two different groups of people.

“Seeing Scots as a people doesn’t mean they or their governments will leap to our defence”
It does not mean they will go against us either.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for any country in the world to deny Scotland its status of sovereign state after it has unilaterally revoked an international treaty exercising its perfectly legitimate right to do so.

” It didn’t work for the Catalans and it won’t work for us”
And here you go again. The situation of Catalonia and Scotland is different. Like black and white. It has been pointed out to you time and time again. Catalonia does not have a treaty of union with the rest of the regions of Spain.

“Czechia and Slovakia were in a Federation”
And? It is a type of union all the same.

“Their respective parliaments voted for the split in the “Velvet Divorce”
There you go. It was the parliamentarians who voted and not the people.

“The 2 situations are not alike”
Look very much the same to me. The only difference is that the Czech and Slovakian MPs had a backbone that used to dissolve their union. Scotland’s MPs only had backbones to collect salaries and profit from the subsidised bars.

“A majority of MPs would only be enough if they represented a majority of voters”
Nope. I advise you to read history and the memoirs of the first MPs and Peers that Scotland sent to Westminster. You will see very clearly there that the majority of voters was never needed for anything to do with the union. It was only a majority of parliamentarians.

“Nobody sane believes that would have been accepted as sufficient for independence either by Westminster or the UN”

Sorry. Using hyperbole does not make your flawed argument any more credible.

“You and other “cunning plans for indy” types constantly asserting it doesn’t make it any more true”
You constantly asserting it will not work or that nobody supports it when you can only speak for yourself and do not present evidence to support your assertion, does not make it less true or less credible.

“Verbosity can’t hide the shortcomings in your reasoning and your tendency assert fringe nutter opinions as truth”
So why do you insist in using verbosity to hide the shortcomings of your own reasoning and your continuous tendency to disregard as fringe nutter options the educated views of others you disagree with but are completely unable to present evidenced arguments to go against?

You do not present any evidence to support your assertions. You simply say that something will not be accepted by this or the other but you never present the evidence that this would be the case. If that is not verbosity trying to hide shortcomings, what is.

Hatuey

In the real world there’s such a thing as what’s called a ‘treaty’. These are internationally agreed terms between countries. A contract if you like. These can, and sometimes are, revoked for all manner of reasons. One of the most common is a breach of contract.

It is perfectly legal to do so. Scotland does not require Westminster’s permission. A section 30. A 70% polling over X amount of years. The international communities blessing, the EUs blessing. A begging bowl or a prayer to the Gods.

It’s a sovereign nation. It can do what the fck it pleases.

It is then for both sides to negotiate new terms. Then put that to the electorate in a referendum.

It’s not Alba or the SNP to make up excuse after excuse of why this hasn’t been done. They still try sell us the snake oil, that even after a successful election , various mandates & now a plebiscite election, their aim is try to appeal to the English if it’s terribly alright with them if we left, please & thank you.

We already know that answer eh? England will simply refuse to comply & hand over what legally belongs to Scotland.

THAT is where someone can stand up & tear the treaty to shreds. They have fck all authority over Scots, her territory or her rights to hold a referendum. A sovereign nation can ask it’s own population whatever the fck it likes.

Instead we have eejits say ‘Oh, OK, Master. Sorry fir asking, Master. Can I give you more of Scotland, master?’ bullshit we have via so called ‘politicians’

And not every country has had a referendum to end their union. It’s pure fantasy & imagined crap by the usual spoilers forever trying to put obstacles in Scotlands way to an exit.

#AskAndy has a fecking flea in his bonnet about ordinary Scots doing it for themselves & EXACTLY how Devolution was delivered yet he spouts absolute horseshit ‘He sees no evidence that’d work’

He’s a faker. He couldn’t be anymore Britnats if he tried.

Norway started the process of independence from Sweden by setting up foreign embassiies(consulates). An act which was perceived to be illegal under the terms of the Union. This paved the way for negotiations on a plebiscite. Norway had already set one up, anticipating Sweden would demand one.

Unlike ours. The Norwegians voted 99% to dissolve the Union. Bearing in mind Norway had never been an independent nation. This is quite incredible.

Which brings us back to how messed up the Scots are. That we could only muster 52% from people born in Scotland.

I am discounting the 10% of non Scots ( mainly English). Because Norway didn’t have such an issue with Swedish settlers.

I think the issue for us is not necessarily identity. We know from the census 65% of our population identify as Scottish,and not British. But Sweden and Norway never amalgamated their name into one State. It was always Sweden and Norway.

The Norwegians always identified as Norwegians. There was no dual nationality to invent a new nationality to attach to.

I think Scots are a very timid bunch when it comes to being assertive. And there is the 300 years of brainwashing , that we are nothing without England.

Uniquely we voted against our own existence. I mean as a populace, not native Scots. But why isn’t independence support at 90%? Who wouldn’t want to be independent. It’s a state of psychological illness.

Excellent cartoon Chris. It looks like the Highland Express. Scottish Airways. Air Scotland.

link to en.wikipedia.org

Scotland once had it’s own Boeing 747 aircraft.

We’ve got our own Airport in public hands. Our profit making airport. It’s time for ScotAIR. Alba Airways.

I want to see Scotland take to the skies again. If anyone in the Alba Party reads this. I want to see Alba Airways.

Mia 6 July, 2024 at 11:25 pm

“the Czech and Slovakian MPs had a backbone that used to dissolve their union.”

To be similar to your situation you have to get both sides to agree to dissolve. In other words England’s MPs and Scotland’s MPs.

There was no equivalent of the Scottish Parliament.

Mia

“We need majority support for independence”
No, we don’t. The only thing we need is a majority of parliamentarians with the will to reconvene Scotland’s parliament and revoke the treaty of union. That is all what it was ever needed.
As it is, what is considered a majority for independence and under which franchise? The majority of Scots natives already voted for independence in 2014.”

That is absolutely spot on.

Even ultra unionist, Thatcher, agreed that was all that was required to end the union.

No ref required.
No sec 30 required.
No white paper required.
No set of accounts to furnish.
No plan required.

All invented crap by Unionists.
Just a simple majority of elected Scottish MPs was instruction enough to end the union & no English MP could or would ever stand in their way. She confirmed this herself. So did Major, so did Blair. It has only been since 2014 that they’ve invented new ways to keep Scotland by spreading fake news & fictitious rules. Same with the One Nation pish from BoJo. We’ve never been on nation & Scots territory remains intact.

That quickly changed under Mayhem once they nearly lost the referendum to somehow we need all manner of tricks & not just from England but from the UN, The EU, The wider international community, the tooth fairy, Santa Clause & all of his elves, next doors cat & all the angels & saints..

What the fck? LOL. Absolute invented horseshit.

The moment SNP turned up with a majority at Westminster they could have ended the union right there & then. Not only over the absolute farce of the Smith commission giving us zero for the No vote but for the Brexit vote only one year later & Scots being excluded from the Brexit negotiations.

They chose not to do so despite a triple mandate that year. GE2015, Holyrood 2016 & Brexit 62% vote.

Sadly Salmond was part of the class of 56 & as an old timer he knew exactly what this meant. It was also, lest we forget, SNP party policy to immediately leave the UK if they ever won a majority. He’ll have to answer to himself at least of why he didn’t do it. He had the chance but he took his seat instead.

Hatuey

Yer right. You don’t know.

It’s documented FACT that Scotland only requires a majority of elected MPs to start immediate withdrawal from the Union.

This was also the SNP party constitution. A majority of elected reps to the mother of all parliaments was the ONLY requirement to start immediate withdrawal.

Thatcher & various other yoons that Neale Harvey read out in parliament also agreed this was all that was required.

But you, some random off the internet, thinks we should now have an election, then a referendum, then another referendum just to be doubly sure about it, Oh… & that internationally recognised treaties are just pish documents no cunt bothers with these days. Same as borders. Scrap them all… they’re all irrelevant.

Away & sit doon eh?

“To be similar to your situation you have to get both sides to agree to dissolve”

Actually no. You are digressing from the point. The point of the dissolution of Czechoslovakia was that it never needed a referendum or a majority of the population voting for the end of that union as Andy Ellis has been claimed it is needed for Scotland to end the Kingdom of Great Britain union. It was simply parliamentarians who did it. The population was never consulted.

The same applies to Scotland. It only requires a majority OF ITS OWN MPS to reconvene the old parliament and revoke the treaty. This was acknowledged by the Scottish peers contemporary to the start of the union.

The difference with Czechoslovakia is that Scotland and England are united by a treaty which can be unilaterally revoked under international law by each of them. There is no need for both to be in agreement. Just one wanting out of the treaty is sufficient.

@ Chris Cairns what a fantastic depiction of the despicable situation the Scum Nonce Party have forced on Scotland and Scots

To understand how the union treaty can be ended by Scotland without England’s permission, you just need to grasp the nature of it.

If France signed a treaty with Germany, agreeing to buy 50% of Germany’s wine output for ‘all time coming’, but then decided that actually German wine just isn’t that good, really, they could end the treaty. It is just a contract. Of course, Germany could easily then say, that’s not fair, you must financially compensate us for all our losses etc.. And so it would go. But ,the key point is, the treaty could be ended by either party, whenever they chose.

If Germany kept France happy with good quality wine, then France would likely never want to end the treaty. They would say, well, this is good for France, so let’s make sure we keep the treaty with Germany. If England did not abuse Scotland, Scottish interests, denigrate our culture, steal our natural assets, like oil, impose butcher’s aprons everywhere, and soon, under Labour, all our power (under the guise of a pretendy entity called ‘gb energy’), then Scots would not demand independence. If the union with England was not wholly undemocratic and unwanted by Scots, if England truly respected Scotland as an equal and equivalent partner, then the issue of ending the treaty would never arise.

Thus it also is with the unwanted undemocratic ‘union‘ treaty which Scotland has with England. Their really, really is no magic special power about it. It really is just a treaty agreement. It does not and never did give England absolute say so over Scotland and what it wants.

I just wish more Scottish politicians would start talking about that. As things stand, most Scots still really do believe that unlike ANY other treaty anywhere in the world, the ‘union‘ treaty with England has a special magic power, whereby England gets to decide what Scotland does or doesn’t do. It is a long established myth perpetuated by England and their sycophantic accolytes (red and blue tories) up in Scotland.

When Scotland decides to end the union, England has no say in the matter. Oh, they will wail and cry foul, and assert there is a ‘constitutional crisis’, and that it is ‘illegal’ etc.. etc.. and so on, but its bollocks. it is exactly the same kind of nonsense and bluster they used for every colony around the world that demanded an end to English abuse and colonial rule.

In short, Scotland does NOT need England’s permission to end the union‘ treaty with England, and never has.

Sadly, England just treats Scots and Scotland like sh*t, and that is why the treaty needs ended.

@sam 7.53 am

I think Sionaidh Douglas-Scott is right that consent, change of circumstances and the requirement to negotiate in good faith could prove to be important additional arguments in use against British nationalist intransigence.

Not also however her comment:

Of course, all that follows must be supported by evidence that the Scottish people wishes to exercise its right to self-determination and leave the Union. If this were not so, then the Scottish Government would itself be violating the principle of democracy. The clearest way to demonstrate whether such a wish existed would be by a referendum on independence, which is why referendums have been the focus of so much discussion to date. But the existence of such a desire could be determined in other ways, such as at a General Election.

It is overwhelmingly likely that the solution to any dispute will be political rather than legal. Those who insist – against all available evidence – that political means are unimportant or won’t be used in our case are pinning their hopes on legal decisions going there way, of which there is no guarantee.

A deeply depressing sense of the “same old, same old” coming from the BTL comments.

The readable ones at any rate – that lets you off the hook Mia.

Here’s a wee question. Two years ago, were much the same posts being posted, rehashing much the same arguments, generating much the same heat, and shining much the same absence of light?

(OK, four questions.)

Because if the answers are yes, what’s the chances any of this will be “settled” in time for the next democratic mandate of the Scottish voters, in May 2026?

I know it’s going to be a lot of fun, endlessly slagging each other off for the next 2 years, but seriously folks, Indy needs a bit more than that.

Think about it. Where were Reform two years ago? Two years in politics is an age.

But you do actually have to get out of your comfort zones and get the something going.

Some questions ahead of the 2026 Holyrood election;

1. Will the SNP change their rules so Stephen Flynn can stand for Holyrood without resigning his Westminster seat?

2. Will Nicola Sturgeon still be an SNP msp at the time of the next Holyrood election, or will she have resigned or be sitting as an independent?

@Geri 2:54

High up on the perversity scale is the removal by bladed implements of intimate body parts from little girls.

For “cultural” reasons.

Being done in this country too, despite being illegal, with a blind eye being turned in the interests of “community cohesiveness”.

I think the continual focus on the practices of some minorities, the trannies in your case, while the practices of other minorities are effectively ignored, is telling.

Maybe we could agree that if the introduction by white westerners of dubious practices to third world cultures is a bad thing, then so is the introduction of dubious third world practices to here?

@ Logorrhea Mia 9.49am

Talking of rehashing old arguments:

Even if it’s true that the majority of native born Scots voted Yes in 2014, that woudln’t have been accepted by either the movement as a whole (which moonhowlers like you thankfully don’t represent) or by the international community, which wouldn’t accept a gerrymandered franchise as a valid expression of the settled will of the Scottish people. Self determination referendums are based on open, inclusive franchises: they don’t pander to xenophobic, nativist bigotry.

Overwhelming numbers of MPs sent to the Westminster parliament signify nothing, because 56 of 59 MPs represented less than 50% of those who voted, and the pro-independence parties hadn’t made the election plebiscitary, so even if we’d won 55% or 60% or 99% nobody internationally would have accepted the result.

If we can’t expect British nationalists to deal with requests for a second referendum in good faith, or to honour the 2012 Edinburgh Agreement precedent, then future referendums are probably pointless. The SNP in particular has been slow to cotton on, as has – arguably – the movement as a whole. That being said (and given the Red Tories flat refusal to countenance any future referendum, particularly given the decrease in SNP MPs at Westminster) we have to find an alternative route to independence.

The only feasible routes are plebiscitary elections (which can’t be denied by British nationalists without it looking decidedly anti-democratic in the eyes of the international community) or some legalistic “cunning plan for indy” route, which bypasses a popular vote or parliament and rests on the assertion that some form of direct democracy, peoples assembly or legal leger de main is more likely to succeed than conventional political means.

The latter can only be seen as a huge long shot. there’s vanishingly little support for the belief that it will either gain the necessary popular support, or be recognised internationally. In addition it has close to zero support in any academic, legal, constitutional or political circles, even amongst neutral experts in those fields abroad who have no skin in the game.

If you and the other moonhowlers had such evidence, you’d be shouting it from the rooftops….but you just don’t because it doesn’t exist.

As someone pointed out above, Reform came from nowhere to where they are now in only 2 years. 500,000 Scots abandoned the SNP a couple of days ago and either voted for the Red Tories or stayed at home.

The only thing stopping Scots voting for independence in 2026 (or even earlier if the SNP had the guts to call early elections in Holyrood) is the lack of political balls amongst enough of the Scottish people. Nativist tomfoolery isn’t going to change that, and will indeed probably have the opposite effect.

Thought I would pop on to Wings and see what the fall out was from the GE results. As is usual, I start from the bottom of the comments section and work my way up.

1st comment I see is from the failed novelist Mia. Quickly by passed. Although I sometimes get a fleeting thought of wondering what she writes. Like many I will never know.

Not too long before I stumble upon the likes of Geri, who thinks that he/she/it is the font of all knowledge and anyone who has the temerity to disagree with he/she/it is fair game for abuse.

After this, I glanced outside to see a neighbour painting his fence. The prospect of watching the paint dry proved more appealing than reading any more comments.

I suspect that I missed the Colonialism pish, the 300 year old shite, the Claim of Rights mince, the Sovereignty crap and all the magical routes to Independence. These routes of course only seem logical to those suffering with mental issues. Who needs the majority of Scots to be in agreement with anything when the 2% on here think that they will decide our fate?

For anyone tempted to respond to this post-don’t bother as it will not be read by me.

Have a lovely day all.

@Geri 10.11am

Your dead simple solution is also dead wrong.

The “all we need is a majority of seats in Westminster” line just won’t fly. It *might* have worked back in the day before the establishment of Holyrood, but even then the expectation was that any nationalist party which gained the majority of seats (even in the rigged FPTP system) would doubtless represent an overwhelming majority of Scots, much as Sinn Fein came to represent the overwhelming majority of Irish voters in 1918 instead of the IPP.

The convention in modern times is that self determination is exercised via a popular 2 choice referendum. It’s not the only route, but it is almost without exception the route used by all the states that have become independent, particularly former republics of Yugoslavia and the USSR which make up a big proportion of cases in recent decades.

It isn’t complicated, nor is it made up. Your fervid imaginings about Salvo, Conventions of the Estates, MPs meeting to dissolve the union are all unicorns and rainbows stuff. Nobody serious is buying the “cunning plans for indy” snake oil: if they were, we’d see evidence of it.

Instead, all we have is a coterie of nativists, xenophobes and some outright racists polluting the discourse here with their poison, and fluffing for their scantily subscribed blogs, failing crowd funders and repetitive self referential pointing to their hot takes on post colonial theory that no sane Scots accept.

We all know folk like you Geri: totally fixated on solutions that are simple and crushingly wrong.

‘Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto’

See Ellis I’m just as clever as you I speak latin too.
I’ve done well for a scheemie eh no?

That reminds me I need to get back to my playlists.

Ellis Island is a song by Marc Cohn
link to youtube.com

I stepped out in the damp and misty night
As the fog was rolling in
Man said, “Last boat leaving tonight
Is the boat for Ellis Island”

Couldn’t help but think that the toon was showing Hamish dumping a bag of excrement – which is exactly what the voters have done.

A good dump was certainly needed, log overdue.