The undecided
Alert readers will already know that the closest thing this site has to a position on this week’s EU referendum is that supporters of Scottish independence living in Scotland should vote Remain.
(And even that view is conditional on whether you consider Scottish independence the most important political goal of your life. If it’s more important to you to be out of the EU than out of the UK then clearly you’ll be voting Leave and there’s nothing we could say that would change your mind.)
But what if you happen to be a supporter of Scottish independence who DOESN’T live in Scotland? What then?
Because that, of course, is what I am. And since the EU referendum was announced, I’ve found myself in the unfamiliar position of being a Don’t Know. Several months of campaigning later I’m none the wiser, and time’s running out.
I’ve been pro-EU my whole life, right up until last summer. The aftermath of the Greek election and referendum was a horrible jolt, in which what’s supposedly a benign and democratic entity essentially mounted a coup against a sovereign nation – not using tanks and bombers but banks, under the command of Wolfgang Schauble.
Now, the Greece situation was complex and nuanced and I’m not going to get into all the rights and wrongs of it here, but the sight of a country’s electorate expressing their wishes unambiguously, by a thumping 23-point margin, and then simply having them steamrollered by EU “technocrats”, sent a chill up my spine that’s never gone away.
Throw in the Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership (TTIP), and suddenly the European project looked a lot less like a benevolent shared social democracy and a lot more like a neoliberal straitjacket.
(“Stay and reform it from within!” is every bit as spectacularly idiotic an argument in this referendum as it was in the last one, for mostly the same reasons.)
But all of this is actually somewhat beside the point. Because when it comes down to it I very much doubt that the outcome of the EU referendum will make a great deal of detectable difference to me either way.
Don’t get me wrong – the arguments that it’ll be bad for the UK economy as a whole seem fairly cut-and-dried. But whenever the UK economy grows and share prices rise and everyone in the City of London gleefully gives themselves an even bigger bonus than usual, none of that ever seems to trickle down to me (or anyone I know) in any way that I can identify.
When the UK economy “booms”, what that really means for most normal people is house prices shooting even further out of reach while wages continue to stagnate and inequality increases. George Osborne’s “warning” that a Brexit would see house prices drop 18% sounded like a pretty compelling reason to vote Leave to anyone despairing of ever getting on the housing ladder as the market carries on frantically inflating yet another overheated bubble.
(If you’re a homeowner and you’re voting Remain because of the economy, what you’re actually doing is protecting your own investment at the expense of people less well-off than you. That’s a perfectly rational and reasonable position to take, but it doesn’t qualify you for the moral high ground, so give the righteous angst a rest, eh?)
Similarly, there’s also a perfectly plausible argument that Brexit would lead to higher wages at the lower end of the scale, with decreased availability of labour through tighter immigration controls leading to a higher premium on said labour, that being the nature of markets. If you’re in more demand as a worker, you can charge more for your services.
(There are good counter-arguments to that too – mainly that stagnating wages are far more a deliberate ideological choice of right-wing governments than an economic consequence, and they can still force wages down with punitive welfare measures.)
The point is, I have no trouble in understanding why Brexit would be bad for the profits of tax-dodging multinational corporations and shareholders. It’s a lot less clear why and how it would hurt the vast bulk of normal people.
(It’s rather like the oil-price argument in Scotland. A high oil price is obviously good for business and the government, which takes in more corporate taxes. But when it plummets, most people – excluding those who lose jobs in the oil industry, obviously – actually benefit significantly from lower fuel costs, and the net effect is a large transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor and a reduction in inequality, something even the most socialist governments struggle to achieve.)
But we’re still bodyswerving the elephant in the room, which is that this site’s chief concern is Scottish independence, and that the result of the referendum could have a major impact on that goal.
If the UK votes Leave and Scotland votes Remain, the democratic case for a second indyref is more or less irresistible – the 2014 No vote was explicitly premised on a guarantee of continued EU membership otherwise imperilled by independence.
But do we want that? On the one hand, the polls on independence have barely shifted in the last 21 months. On the other hand, a majority of polls DO show a (narrow) Yes majority in the specific context of a vote to leave the EU.
A significant number of Unionist commentators and newspapers have publicly said that they’d very seriously reconsider their position on independence were the UK to vote Leave. Business is overwhelmingly in favour of the EU.
Media coverage in Indyref 2 would therefore almost certainly be – at the very worst – considerably more fair and balanced than it was the first time round. Couple that with the fact that Yes would be notionally starting with a lead rather than 30 points behind and suddenly the 6% switch required to win looks temptingly achievable.
Most of the calmer voices in the Yes movement have long considered 2021 a more propitious time for a second referendum. But that’s still half a decade of unpredictable events away, and if the UK was still in Europe then few of the fundamentals that led to the No win of 2014 would have changed.
Would it be better from a Yes perspective to take the bird in the hand rather than gamble on the bird in the bush? A post-Brexit indyref would have all the advantages noted above, but we can’t sensibly say where things might stand in 2021. Five years, as they say, is a long time in politics.
(The biggest practical downside of a quick second indyref would likely be that there’s a very real and very powerful resentment among No voters about the prospect of one. The aforementioned factors might outweigh that, or might not. Feelings are still raw.)
So it’s not yet entirely clear whether a Remain vote is preferable on its own merits to a Leave, nor is it clear which of them is the best result from the perspective of Scottish independence. All that leaves to go on are the campaigns. And to tell you the truth, readers, I’m going to have a really hard time voting for either one of them.
Remain’s has been abysmal almost beyond words. Constructed since the beginning entirely from a politician’s perspective rather than the public’s, it’s been a wretchedly faithful and miserable re-run of Project Fear with the volume turned up to 11.
Possibly the nadir was Alistair Darling lining up beside George Osborne to threaten a “punishment budget” that echoed the Unionist parties’ indyref refusal of a currency union, but there have been plenty of other low points to choose from, including the desperate clutching at the awful murder of Jo Cox.
The Leave campaign, on the other hand, has been riddled with all the crude economic lies and hypocrisies of “Better Together”, but with an added side-serving of appalling flat-out racism that makes Scottish Labour’s grotesque pejorative talk of “foreigners” look tame by comparison.
I didn’t want to be on the same team as David Cameron, George Osborne, Alistair Darling and JK sodding Rowling last time and I still don’t. Iain Duncan Smith, George Galloway, Nigel Farage and Katie Hopkins on the other is no sort of alternative.
(Both sides, it should be noted, do have isolated voices of calm reason, like Nicola Sturgeon for Remain and Gisela Stuart for Leave. Every party except UKIP has senior parliamentarians on both sides of the debate. Trade union leaders too are split, as are party memberships.)
I’ve barely had a leaflet, nobody from either side has knocked on my door, and I think I’ve seen a single incidence of street campaigning from each side, both extremely low-key, in either Bath or Bristol – two cities with a combined population of over half a million people, whose votes nobody seems very interested in winning.
Helpful literature has been almost non-existent. The sole honourable exception has been the thoroughly excellent Wee Bleu Book put together by two SNP MEPs, but there’s been no serious attempt to get printed copies of it into people’s hands, and a huge percentage of the electorate is never going to download a PDF, especially if they don’t know it exists – as far as we know the Scottish media hasn’t mentioned it once.
(It’s a bit of a disgrace that the combined might of every mainstream UK political party can’t manage to scare up the money to put a half-decent publication into voters’ hands when a poky little website like this can print 250,000 copies of a 72-page book by itself and distribute it to every corner of the country. The UK government’s pitiful excuse of a pamphlet was a waste of paper.)
The grassroots campaigns, in so far as they’ve existed at all, have been no help either. Irritating, aggressive, self-righteous lectures from Remainers have been every bit as repellent (in the literal sense of the word) as the wild xenophobic rantings of Leavers. Being ordered to vote one way or another by some numbnuts on Facebook on pain of being either a “fascist” or a “traitor” has the effect of driving me – and I suspect most undecideds – the opposite way.
So three days out I still genuinely don’t know how I’ll vote. I’ll go to the polling station – I don’t believe in abstaining – but I haven’t ruled out a spoiled paper like the one below that I dropped into the ballot box in May 2015, unable in any conscience to vote for any of the candidates offered to me.
The UK’s entire political establishment should be ashamed of itself. The biggest decision the UK has made in perhaps its entire democratic history has been tarnished by two abominably dreadful campaigns, rendered into a coin-toss based on impossible guesswork and utter contempt for just about everyone on both sides.
The one upside is that it’s been educational. For all that a campaigner can try to put themselves in the shoes of an undecided voter, nothing compares to actually being one. If and when we get to a second indyref, I’ll have a far better idea than ever before of how you DON’T win people over to your side.
But that’s no help as far as Thursday goes. And right now, the idea of Donald Trump becoming President of the USA in a few months’ time and wiping the entire species off the face of the planet in a nuclear holocaust is starting to feel less like impending doom and more like mankind’s last hope of a saving grace.
For what it is worth, I decided that I would not be voting after learning of the result of the Scottish elections.
Norway and Switzerland have the highest standards of living in Europe,- it’s no surprise that neither are members of the EU.
Jim Fairlie warned the SNP back in the late 80’s about the power of the EU and he is being proven more right with every year that passes. Independence within Europe is now a misnomer. Vote leave!
Correct me if I’m wrong (and I’m sure someone will) but wasn’t the Greek bailout a result of punitive repayments imposed by national governments, in particular Germany and the Netherlands, rather than the EU?
And haven’t the EU been prevaricating over TTIP recently, much to the US’s frustration? Seems to me that there are quite a few EU politicians now hearing the rising volume of objections to TTIP, something the Tory government is unlikely to do and much more likely to sign up to unilaterally after a Brexit.
Well if that was a real ballot paper that someone has drawn a Dick on that was really f/n clever wasn’t it .
If you live in England vote leave.
If you live in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland vote remain.
And if you do it by post it won’t matter which way you vote because the government will decide how that’s counted.
To afford the Scottish Government at least the option of having an early Indref2 then surely all Pro Indy Supporters in England should vote out.
Any decision that causes the price of Stornoway black pudding, Black Crowdie cheese or Arbroath smokies to needlessly go up, is a bad one.
Glad to help.
TTIP can only be passed through unanimous agreement of all 28 nations. France has already said they’d block it. While to be frank the UK out of the EU under the right-wingers will accept anything to enrich themselves including TTIP
For me the big question is whether the EU can develop into something much less sociopathic than that which is so evidently happening within the US led NAFTA group of countries. And considering that the UK right toyed with the idea of joining NAFTA back in 2000, for this to resurrected under a Johnson led tory ‘UK’ government isn’t much of a stretch of the imagination.
Under the ‘precautionary principle’ the possibility of joining NAFTA with all that that would entail makes staying with the EU, where at least there is a possibility of being in a relatively rational group of countries an overwhelming argument to stick with the EU. One thing is for sure, little england on it’s own is not going to happen. So for me it’s EU vs NAFTA. No brainer –
http://www.monbiot.com/2000/09/07/vote-conservative-for-a-federal-superstate/
Right on Stu, the Greek situation rolls in my stomach like a North Sea swell and the motion sickness ain’t stopped as of yet. I for one have benefitted from the free roaming that the EU has provided so was a definite remain until the Greek showdown. Second to that I know the integration has been beneficial to promoting a more cohesive world as many have uprooted in both directions to live elsewhere under the protection the EU provides in terms of social benefits (healthcare etc).
Further to that, as an indy supporter I have the hope that England voting leave would kickstart the Indyref2 we hope for. Again, the EU reaction to Indyref1 left me with a bitter taste in my mouth as most either plumped to promote the NO vote or said nothing, not what I expected at all, though I hasten to add I am obviously still to green to have thought otherwise, even at 42. I will abstain as I don’t live in Scotland anymore so feel I don’t have a vested interest other than indyref2. For those in England I have sympathy as I know the actions of the Tories has shifted the arguement to the age old ‘blame the immigrants’ arguement and I don’t experience that so will bow out. It is sickeningly obvious to those of us who have endured the vested interest bastards influence this debaate that fear will dictate the outcome and that is no way to ‘win’ an arguement.
I too am an ex-pat in London. What I am hoping for is Scottish votes making the difference in a narrow Remain victory. I believe Rev has already described such a scenario as having the potential for being ‘the funniest thing ever’.
There’s definitely a temptation to vote whichever way is likely to bring this about. At the same time I don’t like dicking around with what are actually important decisions.
Thanks, that was a quick answer to this very question on the last thread about thirty minutes ago! ?
Although I’m none the wiser really. It sounds like you are saying we in England should vote for what we feel is best for the UK? Even though it might mean longer till another Indy ref if Remain win.
I know you wouldn’t tell people how to vote but I’m torn between which (I feel) is best for the UK and which is best for Scotland.
I’m with you, Rev.
The ‘idealistic’ motivation for bringing the countries of Europe together has slowly evaporated over just six decades.
And as can be seen in Poland, some politicians do not even see membership as a commitment to some common standard of democratic functioning.
http://archive.is/WRLWx
I’m not even convinced by the ‘vote remain and maybe get indyref2″ school of thought.
I think I shall vote ‘remain’ while wearing a gigantic peg on my nose in the hope that it is the Scottish vote that keeps us in.
That way, I might get to see some Faragists self-exploding.
Schadenfreude rules, OK!
Whato People!
I haven’t commented for a while as my work days are too long, I am too old and I am too excited about England becoming European Football Champions.
However, when I last visited, I was undecided on the EU referendum – but I have now (I think) chosen a side and I thought I should “share”.
I have decided that I don’t know what is actually best for the people of the UK. The conflicting arguments on the economy, sovereignty, immigration policy – mean that I don’t “know” – and neither does anyone else.
So, working on the basis that, as a country and a people, I believe we are more than capable of handling and dealing with anything that comes along in the future then, economically, we will be fine either way (e.g. if the person that would be responsible for negotiating a tariff free export deal with say, Germany or France doesn’t think they can do it – then step aside and leave it to me).
“Umbrage” has therefore become the determining factor. Contrary to the perceived result of a “Project Fear” on the people of Scotland in their Independence Referendum, I am going to vote leave now – because of Project Fear!
If the “Remain” campaign can’t win a debate on the most important decision we have faced for a very long time without, effectively, potentially accusing me of being an economically illiterate, unthinking, uncaring, isolationist little Englander intent on starting WW3, bringing the Western political system to its knees and being a closet racist – then, they have lost my vote.
I’m a student who’s doing foreign languages, studying abroad through erasmus later this year, aiming to become a translator in the EU and will probably live in Europe. I agree that unlike in the indyref no side has really made the case for the benefits to the country as a whole, so that’s why I’ve just made my decision based on my personal situation.
Do not envy you that choice one bit. Stupid and clichéd to say best to vote your conscience in that scenario, especially when both options have been beyond appalling.
Genuinely, good luck sorting that one out before putting pencil to paper. 🙁
“Well if that was a real ballot paper that someone has drawn a Dick on that was really f/n clever wasn’t it.”
Yes, it is. It was mine, for the reasons I specified. And?
“It sounds like you are saying we in England should vote for what we feel is best for the UK?”
I’m saying I don’t even know how I’ll vote, so it’d be a bit of a stretch for me to tell anyone else in the same situation how to.
It is likely that even if there is a majority for Leave the government will use their option to over ride it. For me a vote to leave is a vote to signal my great dissatisfaction with Europe and policies such as Project Europe.
The more people vote Leave the more politicians in Westminster and Brussells have to realise that they need to change their approach.It is interesting to Google European articles on this issue and see there is already a growing awareness that things have to change.
maxxmacc says:
20 June, 2016 at 1:21 pm
Norway and Switzerland have the highest standards of living in Europe,- it’s no surprise that neither are members of the EU.
All cats have four legs, my dog has four legs, therefore my dog is a cat.
Norway has massive amounts of oil and Switzerland has a secret banking system. I suspect that those are the reasons for their prosperity.
In the knowledge that Scotland is going to vote remain, I know many “remain” supporting unionists in Scotland who are choosing to vote “Leave” as a devise to snub any chance of the Scottish Government using the “We’ve been taken out of Europe against our will” argument.
I didn’t think tactical voting was possible in a referendum.
As I have noted. #remain created all of the problems that #leave are blaming the EU for.
Thus, there is no chance of Boris blaming the Tories for housing, but the EU … of course he will.
My large English family are out – xenophobia is their driver. I am also in England, but cannot vote out – I want my children to enjoy the EU like I have, and still do.
Don’t envy you …
I live in London, I have worked in Europe, I believe in the EU, but I’ll be voting out as I want to maximise the potential and successful conditions for a second independence referendum.
I too have thought long and hard about it. Opting for something I disagree with, but my overwhelming concern is Scotland and her freedom!
Even if remain wins, it’s not a done deal, tories smell blood, Cameron is a goner, moment he goes the right will kick off again.
As for the campaign, completely wretched and predictably so, this is the nature of britiain.
Here’s hoping for a big and positive remain from Scotland!
maxxmacc says: 1:21 pm
“Norway and Switzerland have the highest standards of living in Europe,- it’s no surprise that neither are members of the EU”.
Why, expand your argument, why are you not surprised?, this is not the daily liar, give justification for that statement, if you can?
Personally I see no connection between the two, their standard of living and membership of the EU, by the way you do know Norway is a signatory to the free trade agreement including allowing free movement of people you call immigrants, and pays millions to have that access?
I think if you want Scottish independence, you should vote remain. If the referendum goes the way of remain, it will only be by a small margin and the resentments, recriminations and venom of the English political classes and their toadies in the press will do all the ‘campaigning’ necessary to secure a Yes vote in 2021. If we leave, the right-wing of the Tory party in union with UKIP (no friends of Scottish independence, by any stretch of the imagination), will feel emboldened enough to do whatever they like which may very well include never allowing Scotland to hold an independence referendum again, if needs be by abolishing the Scottish Parliament. If you approach the EU referendum from the perspective of Scottish independence, then surely you must fear for the political climate in the UK in the event of a leave victory and have serious misgivings about the future of Scotland’s limited ‘independence’ as it now exists. After all, these people don’t want to leave the EU just so that they can preside over a United Kingdom that becomes smaller and weaker through Scotland becoming independent of it.
This just raises further questions for me…specifically; when drawing a cock and balls what is the correct way to draw a bellend? Full line Japs eye, as in the Revs image above or the alternative, but no less used, small, half distance line?
If Scotland votes out we will be even more focked than we are now. Abstainers are lazy cnuts who don’t care for their country or for Europe. Spoiling your ballot paper is a selfish exercise which might give you a wee thrill but is otherwise pointless, anonymous and goes largely unnoticed.
Whatever you do don’t think of your vote, either way, as a choice between supporting Cameron’s mob or supporting Faradge (spelling mistake intended).
This is an independence site, we support Scotland. Voting remain in Scotland and Out in England may not get us immediate independence but it’s our best “short term” hope. I’m praying for Scotland, Ireland and Wales helping England by keeping them in the EU.
The apoplexy of the far right right wingers and the little Englanders will be a sight to behold. It might just encourage them to keep out of our next Scottish referendum. When we are independent they can then have their next EU in/out ballot and call it by it’s proper name, Enxit.
Inside Scotland = remain. Outside Scotland = out.
Exactly, those ‘telling’ others how to vote reminds me of the scotref and I always tried to only provide info that would help othes to make the decision (many thanks to Stu and those posters who provided good ‘factual’ info). Bollocks to anyone who tries otherwise. We just have to accept that there is generally no unbiased info and make our minds of from that position. However, Farage et al are none other than than those who would have Scotland in a box made in China, organised by a non tax paying company like Amazon and delivered by some poor fucker chasing his tail for a measly few pennies. I live in France and it appears to me that the individual worker is respected here more than in the UK, I have noever been made to feel thaqt being unemployed is something to feel shame about. I have been helped back to work with a smile and a shake of the hand. Not the experience I had after IDS etc started their war on benefits in the Uk.
Do they know something we don’t?
http://archive.is/SpOKE
I too am undecided, largely due to the shared awfulness of the two campaigns.
I’ve chosen to view this as a helpful exercise in swaying undecided/soft voters. Being one myself this time around, I’ve observed that calm, mature, polite persuasion has a much greater effect than being shouted at (by either side).
While the Yes campaign was peaceful and respectful last time around, I was probably guilty of being a bit too ‘decided’ to be helpful in helping
‘undecideds’ to decide. If you’re still with me….
So in indyref2 I’ll make a conscious effort to, as I saw Margo suggest once, ‘start where people are’ and accompany them along their journey gently.
in scotland
vote remain
bear in mind that this situation isnt permanent, it is the best chance of indyref2 being yes, leaving the uk will be permanent.
once indy, i will start campaigning for sexit from eu, for many of the reasons outlined above.
if you live in england, probably best to vote brexit, but do not say on social media who you voted for until at least the result is in.
if it is a uk brexit and remain in scotland, and you live in england, then better to say you voted remain, even if you didnt.
if it is a brexit, scots voting leave in england, especially yes supporters could well be the focus of the unionist media.
If it is a narrow win for remain, you could still be the focus of media attention and attacks from brexiteers if scots votes are responsable for the small margin of victory.
once the result is in, it will no longer matter how you voted or what you think, the euref will be over and a different campaign will start.
…. and anyway, does anybody think that a “leave” vote will be the end of it? The whole European project will be at risk as the people of Spain, Italy, the Netherlands and even France see the alternative.
Given past experience, countries are not allowed to vote the “wrong” way – so there would inevitably be some further negotiating/wriggling to convince us to stay in – and have another referendum.
I found some time to read the small print of the Prime Minister’s reformed EU agreement
http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504220/The_best_of_both_worlds_the_UKs_special_status_in_a_reformed_EU_print_ready.pdf
and on page 34, under “Aspects of the International Law Decision” the paragraphs that follow could be interpreted as giving a green light to the internal enlargement of the EU.
What do others think?
I would be very interested to know if any Remain voters in England would consider moving to Scotland in the event of a Leave win. Especially as there has been the suggestion that Scotland could potentially retain membership, even without independence (although it is not entirely clear how likely that would be).
Any chance of a wee poll for that?
As a resident Scot in favour of independence, I don’t need to tell you how I intend to vote 🙂
maxxmacc says: 1:21 pm
“Norway and Switzerland have the highest standards of living in Europe,- it’s no surprise that neither are members of the EU”.
Prior to striking oil, Norway was an extremely poor country. Its prosperity had nothing to do with not being a member of the EU. Having lived there for the best part of 8 years, I’ve had many a conversation on the subject.
I’m still not entirely convinced Brexit is really going to be enough to swing 6% over to independence in a second referendum. I have a horrible feeling that, despite the UK clearly having just driven off a cliff, a combination of the status quo cognitive bias – and a touch of Stockholm syndrome – would see people clinging onto the UK for dear life, despite the obvious path being taken by rUK.
I think we would need absolute guarantees from the EU that we would definitely get membership immediately – if folk didn’t believe we’d get to stay in the EU while the UK was in, I’m not sure they’d believe us that we’d get accepted in the scenario of the UK leaving. It also complicates the currency issue somewhat. And I can’t see it being an issue that would suddenly convince pensioners to vote for independence either.
Basically, I would say it’s too risky to bet on, and in the meantime, Brexit will almost certainly throw the spanner in the works for the Scottish Government’s spending plans. I would say you’d be best off simply trying to imagine under what conditions a Leave win would lead to your own life being improved, and how likely those are to happen.
I’m voting for remain but I have to say the remain campaign has drawn me seriously close to voting out.
As a completely selfish barsteward and needing to repatriate Euros back into Pounds to buy a house in Scotland, it would be obvious for me to vote Leave hoping for both a fall in Sterling and a collapse in house prices.
But then whats best for the kids…with their dual nationality…decisions, decisions
Whatever you decide to do, do it with some intelligence and thought.
Don’t be a Baroness Warsi whose political convictions are so compromised that she decided to change sides because she didn’t like the campaign itself not the actual issue of how we relate to the EU.
If everyone voted according to the quality of the campaign then we’d be counting the total number of votes on one hand.
Nobody should be in any doubt that a remain vote in Scotland could help us to a second Independence referendum but at the same time nobody in Scotland should think that automatically means we rejoin the EU or not, or on the terms which exist for the UK at the moment
Don’t expect Nicola Stormborn mother of Dragons to just meekly join us back up to something without some heavy duty wrangling first
The EU as Stu has already pointed out very clearly, is good and it’s every bit just as bad and our FM and her team on behalf of Scotland won’t be wanting too much of the bad stuff
If you live in England, without doubt it’s an OUT for me, but if you live in Scotland it’s a resounding REMAIN for a chance of OUT from the UK and then a dicussion on what’s next for the EU
But that’s a problem for another day, let’s bang in one nail at a time
Living in England as I do, and being an Indy and Remain supporter, I have thought all along that I would vote Leave, just to hopefully help along an Indy2 vote. But the closer it gets to the vote the harder I am finding it to vote on the same side as Farage, Johnson and other right wing ejits. It’s the hardest choice I have had in 30+ years of voting.
Almannysbunnet says:
Inside Scotland = remain. Outside Scotland = out.
but if brexit, say you voted remain
if it is a narrow remain, say you voted remain
if it is a big remain, the eu ref is over and we will be in a different place
the euref result always was a signpost for indy scotland, too difficult to decide the way forward until we know the result!
as indy supporters, we know that this euref wont be decided by scots, the 55% of no voters ensured that.
since indyref1, we have endured the 2015 ge, the 2016 he and now the potential division of the euref, but come friday morning, regardless of the result, we will meet back here, once again united in a common goal.
If you are geniuninely undecided at the end, don’t vote. The worse thing of the Indyref was BT trying to conning UDs into voting No.
For what its worth, to persuade you to vote Remain. The unionists will continue to wrong foot themselves, thus making Scottish Independence inevitable. The EU still has the power to act as a counterbalance to UK swivel eyed rightwingery. Thats is why they want to be rid of bot the EU, the Human right charters and the courts (the latter 2 the objective of the Tory Bremainers to). Also The EU contributes still to peace in europe (as well as NATO)
I am not to animated about this referendum , on a scale of 1-10 I put it at 1,
I will do whatever the majority of people decide.
Even with Brexit,you are still going to pay in and you will have immigration.
So this magic wand where everything will be better, better jobs better paid, is just an illusion.
oddly enough most of my SNP voting friends are for Brexit as well, they also pine for a time when “Britain was Great”.
By Christ I needed a laugh.
Got one.
The female members of this household have received personally addressed “Stay” flyers from “Scotland Stronger in Europe” printed in Blue and White with miniscule white on blue information as to source. One “Will Straw”.
A quick google gives the lie away. None Other than Son of Jack Straw !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Straw
Getting desperate.
Maybe fool the TENA wearing Tory voters.
There can be no doubt an iScotland would thrive in the EU, and our FM would play hardball, getting the best possible deal for Scotland.
Just look how Dublin, Athens and Lisbon, lay the law down to Berlin.
I am a European.
English have a pathological need to be at war with some nation most of the time. Europeans will do fine, they’re not too far away. Why would I want to encourage them to take on the French or Germans or Dutch again? And why would I want ruled by such a corrupt democracy?
Stay European: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-4Zo
Indy Ref 1 was eventually established with a binary question – omitted was Devo Max. Remember?
There is a similarity with the EU Referendum – there is a question missing imho – the question which includes vote yes for remain but on condition!
Those conditions include having unelected commissioners being held to democratic accountability, and a clear committment never to see a repeat of the utter impoverishment of the Greek people, onto measures that address youth unemployment, and TTIP, etc etc.
Just like you Rev – I know what is vastly wrong with the EU as constituted – but cannot decide if I want to vote to leave.
Had there been a third “conditional” vote for remain – it would have been much easier to decide, I would be voting to put wrongs right – is that not somehow democratic?
Stu,
I completely agree with what you say about Greece. It was deeply awful and I am very dubious about any future Wolfgang Schauble has a leading role in.
However, when it comes to TTIP the UK is a huge supporter – at least Cameron has been – and I for one am relying on left wing votes in Europe to scale the whole appalling mechanism down. (I also can’t see foodie countries like France and Italy giving Monsanto’s business model a free rein.) If the UK does Brexit, then, despite Obama’s suggestion that the US wouldn’t be interested in a trade treaty with the UK alone, I fully expect the Tories to sign us up to a trade agreement complete with ISD mechanism. They’ve already begun dismantling the health service in order to switch to the US model.
In my, albeit less informed than it could be, mind, I see Europe as a tempering force to the Tories. And the Tories aren’t going to lose power at Westminster any time soon.
Not sure if that clarifies anything for you. As you say, as a Scot, resident in Scotland, I’ll be voting Remain anyway.
Having read all the arguments I will vote remain.
Doug Daniel says:
20 June, 2016 at 2:20 pm
I’m still not entirely convinced Brexit is really going to be enough to swing 6% over to independence in a second referendum.
agreed Doug, but the consequences of brexit may well do.
eg, the eu offered its opinion on the event of scottish independence if cameron asked for it. he didnt which left people to argue, on both sides, what the result of a yes would be for 3 years. This could have been avoided if we had by passed all of them and got the opinion straight from the horses mouth.
a brexit may enable nicola to ask the eu directly and this time we may well get an answer.
this is just one example of how the consequences of brexit may well remove one aspect of contention which occured during indyref1 and encourage this 6% to switch from no to yes. indeed, a brexit may well destroy most of the no camp arguments
I was going to abstain in, I rejected the UK so “Hell mend them” spirit ( churlish for sure).
Greece and Italy also was definitely a portent and we saw the mask slip from the ‘egalitarian’ EU visage.
But the prospect of Boris”pound in Croydon” Johnson crowing in victory and the outright mean spirited xenophobia of the leave campaign forces me to vote remain.
I’ve a horrible feeling Scotland will vote Leave along with UK and that would simply be armaggedon for us.
I can’t stand by and let that happen
Greece was my reason for a leave vote as my conscience would not allow me to endorse the disregard for the democratic will of the Greek people.
As a paid up member of the SNP and an activist within the party I am now at a crossroads of faith when I see the intolerance the ‘yes family’ extend to those like me who wish to vote leave. It vexes me greatly.
Let’s examine how the party have conducted this referendum. They use as ‘proof’ of the economic benefits of the EU , the SAME economic experts we were told during indyref were liars doing Cameron’s bidding. During indyref Jim Sillars was ‘a great orator’ , a ‘man to be listened to’ but guess what? Now he is a ‘maverick’ , a man who I have seen it suggested should be ‘expelled from the party’
On Thursday , before the dreadful events surrounding Jo Cox , Nicola Sturgeon shared a platform outside holyrood with Kezia and Ruth to campaign for remain. This would have been the big news story of the day in Scotland had events not overtaken it. Sharing a platform was something we were told would NEVER happen , but as soon as the polls put leave in the lead that promise got chucked out the window.
When Farage unveiled his dreadful poster on Thursday , an SNP mp tweeted that ‘anyone who votes leave condones this racism’ ANYONE? Really? So with indications that maybe a third of SNP members may vote leave , let’s dismiss their reasons and label them racists.
Just this morning an SNP msp has claimed on twitter that ‘the leader of Isis’ supports brexit. I have also been told by fellow yessers that to vote leave shows ‘disrespect to Jo Cox’
I could go on , there are multiple instances where MY party has descended into the SAME lies , used the SAME sources and the SAME arguments that they condemned when independence was our goal.
I shouldn’t be surprised I guess , I genuinely DID believe the SNP were ‘different’ , they are not. Will I still vote on Thursday? Probably not. It’s not so much abstaining as refusing to endorse an electoral process which is tainted on all sides by intolerance.
‘oddly enough most of my SNP voting friends are for Brexit as well, they also pine for a time when “Britain was Great”’
You’re right, that is very odd, unfeasibly odd.
TTIP is a red herring though – both sides of the Tory #Brexit civil war are big fans of it. Vote Remain – and you are supporting Tories who are the main promoters of it in Europe. Vote Leave and you are supporting Tories who dream of a one-on-one deal with the U.S. that would make the existing EU TTIP deal proposal look like a social welfare plan.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/25/ttip-vote-brexit-barack-obama-leave-eu-trade-deal
Because Scotland seems definitely to be voting STAY by a 2 to 1 margin I am very tempted to lend my Scottish vote to help the English leave lot. This I hope will help to get the England OUT and Scotland IN result that may get us Indyref2 by 2020.
After Brexit = TTIP on steroids or some other variant with USA
After Brexit = Full on Fracking
Principles are great but you need a country worth living in first.
@Papko
Aye right, I’m completely taken in, say more crap like that coz I’m falling for it
We know you’d LIKE SNP voters to vote OUT but it’s not going to happen, but it shouldn’t stop you trying your best to convince Scotland we’re all secret Ukippers “When Britain was Great” What you mean is when Englandshire ruled the waves
England, a country that depends so heavily on imported food from everywhere else that if that tap were turned off, can’t even feed itself so dependent is it on London financial services and if it hadn’t raped the North sea for the last 35 years in order to survive would have sunk without a trace
Take London out of Englands economy and you’ve got an economy in as bad a state as Northern Ireland
Deary me
Vote with your conscience. Then you’ll be able to live with yourself. The only reason to value democracy is so that everyone can vote for what they believe is right.
OK we may be ill-informed, even lied to. The media and Westminster politicians have a lot to answer for. It’s an imperfect democracy but better than the alternative.
As an added bonus, voting Remain will really annoy the Tory right wing. That is an honourable thing to do. This whole fiasco of a referendum is an attempt by the Tories to resolve their internal divisions over Europe. Let’s leave them stewing in their bitter juice a little longer.
BTW Yanis Varoufakis, in his book “The Weak Must Suffer What They Must”, reluctantly accepts staying in is better than leaving, for the time being.
You can always have another referendum!
Troll Klaxon alert folks
With only days to go they’ll be flooding our Interweb again with their crap, this time it’s that famously successful group The Ukippers and we have to listen to them folks because time and time again they’ve been proved….
Well,… wrong
Aye its all a right mess Rev i cant be bothered with it all, its all blah blah hate this hate that the indyref klaxon has never stopped going off.
Watching the tories run out all the old fear gambits makes me disgusted and where is the mighty Labour party standing at their sides like the lap dogs they are.
The kippers with their tory masters are showing their real face as they try to take control of the conservative party from the neo liberal moderates,its quite mental really to use the term neo liberal moderates but thats what Dave and Gideon and his henchmen are compared to boris and ids.
Welcome to the sham that is British politics vote for me or the puppy gets it.
But then we all know the puppy always gets it anyway what a sorry state of affairs or should that be sorry affairs of state.
But still a chance for Scotland to escape the madness so i will hold my nose and vote remain.
I take the view that a vote to leave will not be accepted without at least a second referendum.
On that basis, as a Scot living abroad (England), I will vote leave. A remain vote will attract consequences from the EU just as the no vote attracted consequences from Westminster. ‘You voted to stay, now suck it up’ will be the result. If the Scottish vote is perceived to have in any way influenced the outcome – how dare you – then there will be a hardening of attitudes amongst the yoons. But you can’t make an omelette etc.
If I was voting in Scotland I would vote remain for the reasons that others have stated.
But I do not favour the notion of a rush into indyref2 under any circumstances. I share the anger of others at the scorched earth/asset stripping policy of Westminster towards Scotland. However, our principal long term assets – the educated intelligence of our people and renewable energy – cannot be stolen or destroyed. With that in mind we have be patient enough to wait for the right moment to ask the people for a mandate for independence.
Similar situation but in the East Mids.
I’ll be voting leave mainly because of what happened to democratically elected govts in Italy & Greece. Forcing a change of govt by threatening to “starve you out” (pretty much the case in Greece) isn’t acceptable to me.
Likewise ignoring what is without doubt a fascist govt in Hungary & Poland heading the same way isn’t acceptable to me.
The EU Commission seems to think both of those are acceptable. They also seem to think that interfering in the Spanish election process is acceptable too – they’re terrified Spain will say “sod austerity”.
Why wait until next Friday? I can give you the result right now: multiple cases of tory-on-tory attacks, resulting in an increasing number of conversions from unionism to Scottish independence north of the Border, and an increasing number of conversions from unionism to English independence south of the Border. What’s not to like?
“Now, the Greece situation was complex and nuanced and I’m not going to get into all the rights and wrongs of it here, but the sight of a country’s electorate expressing their wishes unambiguously, by a thumping 23-point margin, and then simply having them steamrollered by EU “technocrats”, sent a chill up my spine that’s never gone away.”
This is a translation into English of the question the Greeks were asked in their referendum.
“Should the plan of agreement be accepted, which was submitted by the European Commission, and the International Monetary Fund in the Eurogroup [meeting of] 25.06.2015 and comprises of two parts, which constitute their unified proposal?
The first document is entitled ‘Reforms For Completion Of The Current Program And Beyond’ and the second ‘Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis’
NOT ACCEPTED/NO
ACCEPTED/YES”
This proposal was published by the European Commission, but withdrawn when negotiations were abandoned shortly after.
The proposed deal (contained in the documents referred to in the referendum question) was withdrawn *before* the referendum was even held.
The Greek referendum was perhaps the most pointless one ever held.
The Greek parliament later voted in favour of accepting the terms and conditions of a *new* bailout programme proposed by the Troika.
As to the wider point, I don’t see why a refusal by other eurozone countries to offer Greece yet more loans on terms and conditions that suited the Greeks alone was undemocratic.
In what sense was it undemocratic for the government of Ireland, itself having experienced severe economic difficulties in recent years, to refuse to loan Greece money on terms and conditions demanded by the Greek government?
Should the Irish government have acted in accordance with the wishes of the Greek people (although we don’t know what those wishes were at the time, since the referendum asked a question about a proposed deal that had been withdrawn by the time it was held) or in accordance with the best wishes of the Irish people, the people who democratically elected it? I don’t think so – I think it would have been undemocratic for the Irish government to have done so. Likewise for every other eurozone government outside of Greece.
If the Greek people and the parliament they elected truly did not want to accept the terms and conditions attached to the bailout loans, they could simply have refused to accept the loans at all.
It’s not as if there were no political voices in Greece calling for that – they campaigned for Greece to drop the euro, leave the EU, renege on its existing debts, withdraw from existing bailout programmes and refuse to enter new ones, during the later general election campaign.
In a wider sense, Greece’s problems have little or nothing to do with the EU. Decades of cronyism, corruption and tax evasion, compounded by a weak and inefficient public administration, in a country where too few of the population accept the legitimacy of the state (a sad legacy of the Colonel’s dictatorship) had weakened it to the point where its problems accumulated and, once exposed in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2008, came home to roost soon after.
Whatever way the vote goes we wont have a country worthy living in. Depressing but true!
A couple of opinion polls show Remain recovering from the canvas and today the Sleazy Corrupt FTSE rebounds and the Brit Peso rises in value. The BBC piles in on the signal to double up on the Propaganda. And every bone in my body tells me this Referendum is as rigged as the Scots Indy one.
WHAT DEMOCRACY? WE DONT HAVE ONE!
As I have said in an earlier posting, the ideology of the EU is a fantastic belief as is the ideology of the purest communism, unfortunately that is not how the current EU is being run, the original proposal of a common market is now unrecognisable ,the pseudo dictators have taken over, democracy is being ignored and usurped, citizens are having to take ever more extreme measures to be heard ,and even then they are still not listened to EG TTIP ISDS the French labour laws revisions
There are many good and great things that have come from the EU countries, but in my opinion it has become a pawn of neo corporations and the IMF, it has become too burdensome and disconnected to the citizens it is meant to serve. Angela Merkel is an example of this dictatorial disconnect, rather than take steps with her fellow heads of state to address and formulate a plan of action to rescue and give temporary protection to genuine refugees, to possibly set up and operate with NGO’s properly run and protected temporary camps whilst awaiting a resolution of the conflict.
Instead SHE without consultation or foresight issues a lunatic invitation to all and sundry to come to Europe, people have genuine concerns and worries regarding immigration and the effect it will have on their living standards, the NHS, housing, doctors and social services ,the constant derision by politicians and others calling them racists and xenophobes does nothing to assuage their worries. I personally, like the rev am confused, I desperately want independence,I want Scotland to prosper,I don’t want Scottish culture and traditions to be diluted, I don’t want to become just another vassal state,I want my children and grandchildren to be proud of their Scottish heritage and of their birthright, if people want to consider that as isolationist,insular,xenophobic or racist then they are entitled to their opinion.
One of the many reasons I want a iScotland is, I want to be able to hold my government to account, I want to be able to visit my parliament with others of a like mind to ensure my representatives are working for our benefit, I don’t want to have to travel hundreds of miles in an attempt to negotiate a myriad of faceless beaurocrats to access those responsible to the electorate.
The proposal by the EU to admit a further 5 countries ,some in their infancy only adds a further level of confusion and disharmony
Don’t Norway and Switzerland still have to abide by some EU laws to trade with Europe and still pay for the privilege without the representation at the EU Parliament?
Rev I’m over the border from you in Wales and I need the EU in Wales as it helps fund so many of the projects Westminster just doesn’t care about. Some here have no idea what the EU really does to stop Wales from getting even less money back.
This is an English Nationalist referendum, led by the far right, let’s call it for what it is. From all the media coverage this is less to do with economy and trade and everything to do with immigration, racism and xenophobia from BoJo who’s family tree looks like a European grand tour and Farage the hypocrite with the obviuosly European name, German wife and a job at the EU.
The entire thing is BS compared to the Scottish referendum. That was also despite animosity was conducted by adults…for the most part.
Here’s Yanis Varoufakis talking about the need to democratise Europe (11 mins) on his own website. For those who support Greece against the monstrous Herr Schauble.
https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/06/06/discussing-brexit-with-anthony-barnett/
I will vote in, while I do have misgivings with the EU, all in Scotland does ok with it, in terms of trade and subsequent jobs.
The workers rights is good too, and would be quickly binned by the Tories.
There are some serious issues to consider, the appalling way Greece has been treated is but one. I also remember when Ireland voted on the Euro, they voted no. Followed after with a big push from the EU and Irish politicians, with another vote which said yes.
They could not accept that Ireland democratically voted no.
So the manipulated and connived to change the minds of the Irish, to get their way.
But there are many good things about the EU, that I like, also I will imagine the SNP have looked at what is in Scotland’s best interests. So for me, I vote in, and hope Scots in England will vote no.
However, it would be something to behold if England voted no, and was kept in by a sliver, ie Scottish yes votes. Hmmm, the pressure to kick us out would really be something that BUM, would feast on, and that may suit us fine.
In the event of Scotland narrowly voting Remain and the overall UK narrowly voting Leave, I am still waiting to hear a compelling reason why Westminster should/would vote in order facilitate an Indy Ref 2. This from Wiki…
“The Scottish government insisted in 2010 that they could legislate for a referendum, as it would be an “advisory referendum on extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament”, whose result would “have no legal effect on the Union”. Lord Wallace, Advocate General for Scotland, said in January 2012 that holding a referendum concerning the constitution would be outside the legislative power of the Scottish Parliament and that private individuals could challenge a Scottish Parliament referendum bill.
The two governments signed the Edinburgh Agreement, which allowed for the temporary transfer of legal authority. In accordance with the Edinburgh Agreement, the UK government drafted an Order in Council granting the Scottish Parliament the necessary powers to hold, on or before 31 December 2014, an independence referendum. The draft Order was approved by resolutions of both Houses of Parliament, and the Order, titled The Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2013, was approved by Queen Elizabeth II, following the advice of Her Ministers, at a meeting of the Privy Council on 12 February 2013.
Under the powers temporarily transferred from Westminster under the section 30 Order, the Scottish Parliament adopted the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013, summoning the referendum, defining the question to be asked, giving the date on which the referendum was to be held, and establishing the rules governing the holding of the referendum. The Bill for the Act was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 14 November 2013 and received Royal Assent on 17 December 2013. Under section 36 of the Act, it came into force the day after Royal Assent.”
Given the Tory majority at Westminster and a huge overall majority of pro-Union MPs/parties, it would be very easy for the UK Govt. to insist that thursday’s vote is a UK vote and that the overall UK result is binding. Futhermore, and unlike 2014, the Scottish Govt. has no mandate to hold an Indy Ref 2. and the SNP has no majority at Holyrood. Unionist MPs at Westminster voting through legislation to permit Indy Ref. 2 would be the biggest case of turkeys voting for Christmas since God knows when.
Any attempt by Holyrood to hold Indy Ref. 2 without Westminster’s consent would be open to challenge in the courts and also to the possibility of a boycott being mounted on the “No” side, as happened in Catalonia in 2014 where overall turnout is estimated to have been approximately 40% as a result of the “No” camp staying at hoome.
Now, before some here accuse me of being a “Troll” (20+ years in SNP, including two appearances on the ballot paper as an SNP candidate, thank you very much), this is not an effort to start a keyboard war with those who seem to think that Holyrood’s right to hold Indy Ref. 2 has nothing whatsoever to do with Westminster, but I’m not convinced by the mass-assumption that the present Scottish Govt. needs simply to click its fingers and voilà…
Everyone who voted NO at IndyRef was choosing to have Scotland ruled by right wing Tories in London. Some voters didn’t see that, for reasons I still fail to understand.
Anyone voting Leave is now choosing to have Scotland ruled by even further right Tories in London. Unbridled by the EU they have an agenda to reduce individuals’ rights and pursue neo liberal business friendly policies. And that’s before we consider rampant English nationalist xenophobia.
We are not being asked if an Indy Scotland should be in or out of the EU. Hopefully, we may be able to address that sometime.
We are currently being asked if Scotland, as an effective colony of Greater England, should have the limited benefits and safeguards of the EU removed.
Further, this is a Cold Civil War of the English right being played out. I don’t like either side, but one seems marginally less threatening to Scotland than the other.
I can see absolutely nothing in a Leave vote for Scotland.
If Greece did not want to accept the terms of the ‘stay-in’ they should have dropped out of the Euro and even possibly the EU.
The EU should have been able to make that a viable path, and there is the suspicion that an unwillingness to leave such options open is due to an overriding drive for greater EU harmonization and its unthinkable that some countries are just not suitable.
When a country cannot keep up or its vastly different social attitudes to government and taxation make it unsuitable for EU membership – it should as painlessly as possible – be allowed to drop out, float its own currency and adjust in its own way.
Interesting to see so many new names posting on this thread. Hopefully some of you will stick around after Thursday and contribute your thoughts on the wider issues surrounding Scotland’s future.
My rationale is: Who do you hate less?
What has happened to Greece is appalling but the idea of Tory unleashed after Brexit is scary.
Whether Brexit or Remain this isn’t over – it’s going to get a whole lot nastier and I’m more inclined to trust EU, however bad the neo liberal agenda, to the fast track to oblivion alternative.
That said, if the Donald becomes POTUS the end of the world is nigh.
If I was genuinely undecided, I would be voting Remain to compensate for the fact that the franchise in this election excludes EU citizens living here. I am assuming that most EU citizens would be casting their vote for Remain, but I think that’s a fair assumption.
How hard is it to choose on the remain side you have a lying tory prick and on the leave side you have a lying tory prick now that wasn’t difficult was it
Strikes me the Remain camp is missing a trick, or is it the Leave camp? Who cares?. In true Better Together “Best of both Worlds” style, the Tories should devolve more sovereignty to Scotland along the lines that Scotland can stay in the EU, because Scotland might thus trade freely inside the EU umbrella, with the R.U.K. left free to sell its weapons, I mean trade, with anybody it wants to as an ex-EU member. Wayhey! Best of both worlds!
Good for Scotland, we use Scottish ports to channel all EU exports and imports to the UK, and the Tories can set about turning London into Singapore, and a playground for rich elite tax dodgers.
Imagine what we might be looking at now, if the Tories had actually backed Scottish Independence. They might have been able to have their cake and eat it.
But they didn’t…
If I was Nicola Sturgeon however, I might be threading a Best of Both Worlds worm onto a hook, and see if there are any nibbles for a “liberalisation” of views on Scottish Sovereignty, and an ever so urgent review of broadcasting arrangements in particular, in exchange for de facto access to European markets in the event rUK chooses to leave the EU.
That all falls to pot however, if Scotland doesn’t rattle in mightily positive vote to remain.
However, having the English genuinely wanting to see an Independent Scotland flourishing in Europe but joined at the hip (voluntarily) with an Independent England flourishing through its piracy on the high seas, might actually be an option worth a closer inspection. Quite literally, the best of both worlds, everybody getting what they want, and helping each other out to do it.
The bigger Scotland’s Remain vote, the better.
This is a referendum about the future of London not the UK. It’s a classic case of least worsts and nothing screams worse louder than a completely unfettered City of London (which is already barely democratic within the UK)
Simples .. look at who wants you to leave .. and run a mile ……REMAIN
Robert Kerr
And printed in Cornwall!
It was Tsiparis that sold out the greeks. Yanis Varoufais had the troika over a barrel and they knew it. After the ref the troika said that they wanted to deal with someone else not YV. Tsiparis caved in.
Interestingly, the troika are now trying to renegotiate a deal remarkably similar to Yanis’s proposals.
Just watching Bloomberg markets where all stocks shares and prices are shooting up with confidence of a remain vote
But here comes the ugly bit, the announcer just said “since the death of Jo Cox that looks as though it’s pushed more people into the remain camp”
So there you have it, that’s how the rich businesses and very rich businesses equate the whole thing
It’s all helped their grip on their money
I’m remain but I really wish I didn’t have to vote at all
to enrich any of these people
robertknight says:
In the event of Scotland narrowly voting Remain and the overall UK narrowly voting Leave, I am still waiting to hear a compelling reason why Westminster should/would vote in order facilitate an Indy Ref 2.
the euref is a war in the tory party, if brexit then their will be a shift to the right when bojo wins
there is another issue which splits the tories, brit unionists and english unionists, if brexit, the english unionists win. they believe the scots are a drain and subsidy junkies.
This will be the brexit tory party narrative wrt scotland going forward.
if the tory election fraud does result in the tory majority being threatened, agreeing to indyref2, knowing and even hoping for a yes win, would remove the snp mps from westminster leaving the tories with an unchallengable majority,
if the tories and the snp agree on indyref2, they will have a majority to pass this through westminster.
the idea or the question of the tories opposing indyref2 may not be cut and dried
From Stuart.
This is exactly my dilemma. I’m trying to think of the principles rather than the people. We won’t know ‘what a fine mess they’ve got us into till later’
Without the UK the EU will be one government less right wing.
It is the UK who are fighting hardest to lessen the banking regulations, less it upset their London money laundering operations.
It is the UK that are fighting hardest for TTIP.
The EU can only reflect the governments of the member states. It is the parliamentarians who pass laws.
When you put a dingdong like that on your ballot paper, they’re counted for Fluffie Mundell, anywhere.
Oops! Missed this from 4.17 pm
“I didn’t want to be on the same team as David Cameron, George Osborne, Alistair Darling and JK sodding Rowling last time and I still don’t. Iain Duncan Smith, George Galloway, Nigel Farage and Katie Hopkins on the other is no sort of alternative.
(Both sides, it should be noted, do have isolated voices of calm reason, like Nicola Sturgeon for Remain and Gisela Stuart for Leave. Every party except UKIP has senior parliamentarians on both sides of the debate. Trade union leaders too are split, as are party memberships.)”
Robert knight
Yes, agreed but when was it ever easy? I see trouble ahead either way?
But the union is over. That you can be sure of.
For my family and I it’s a no brainer, we’ll be voting for Remain as it gives Scotland the best deal.
England has it’s own problems they can sort it themselves, Scotland has given them the best of it’s young and brightest people, it’s coal, oil, gas, electricity, it’s taxes, it’s fish, beef, vegetables, etc.
What have they given back, lies, smears and placemen whilst squandering the gifts given to them and all the time blaming the Scots and all foreigners for all their own self made ills.
Roll on for Indy Ref 2 after the Council Elections in June 2017.
Independence is long overdue for Scotland and the Scottish People.
Compared to the so-called united kingdom the EU is the lesser of two evils. I’ll be voting Remain; I believe England will vote Leave. Whatever the result the so-called united kingdom continues to rot.
Keep your eye on the prize – independence. That’s why we are all here.
Remain is the only sensible option in Scotland for the moment, whatever you think of the EU. Think of it as a tactical vote which might just be another step on the road to independence – we can have our own Scottish decision when the time comes, based on the merits of our own deal with the EU, and without the distortion of the abysmal Tory vs Tory, England based campaign we’ve been subjected to.
I cannot see any way that a Scottish Leave vote will do anything but make it harder to become independent, and I cant see how swapping a EU neo-liberal nightmare for a Westminster even-more-extreme-neo-liberal nightmare would help.
An English Leave coupled with a Scottish Remain vote will help us on our way to independence. I’m hoping not for an immediate IndyRef2, but Scotland negotiating to stay in the EU (Denmark/Greenland style) and a flood of businesses relocating from England… a couple of years down the road independence might look like a no-brainer to the necessary 60%…
Any thoughts of a tactical Leave vote up here to boost the overall UK Leave, on the assumption of a strong Remain vote in Scotland is madness – I have a feeling that the Scottish result might not be as strongly Remain as suggested.
And finally I actually don’t want to see Europe disintegrate into a collection of right-wing xenophobic states, which there is a real danger of triggering if the whole UK leaves.
Bottom line – I trust Nicola’s judgement on this.
arthur thomson says:
But I do not favour the notion of a rush into indyref2 under any circumstances.
except if the circumstances, eg polls showing a big swing from no to yes….
thing is, we have an snp government and it is they who will read the polls and decide.
many think there wont be such a swing, and they maybe right, but in such a case, i doubt nicola will commit to indyref2. the beauty of the snp winning in 2016 is, they are in the position to decide. Thats why there was no definite commitment to indyref2 in the manifesto of may2016, rightly so.
it is nicola’s options which are open, even if the unionists question the snps mandate to hold indyref2, it can merely be re confirmed in the council elections in may 2017.
It’s human nature to make links. That on Thursday morning we were talking about a blatantly racist poster and by evening someone had been murdered will lead us to link the two regardless of reality. As it happens there’s a strong case to be made that that poster triggered a final descent into madness for the murderer.
Having made the link then it’s reasonable to think that rather than being forced into Remain it’s pushed people away from Leave and perhaps stiffened the resolve of the support of Remain whilst weakening that of Leave.
According to some it’s ok to vote leave if you live in Scotland!
NO ITS NOT! YOU MUST VOTE IN! This is not about the EU!
IF YOU VOTE IN ENGLAND VOTE OUT! Or IN Quite Frankly I Don’t Care.
But Don’t spoil your paper with an oversized nob, the funnier gag will be England kept in by the Scottish vote, now that will be hilarious!
There are a number of interesting scenarios that could play out after this vote (all of them involving a respectable Remain vote in Scotland).
1) England Remain + Scotland Remain = UK Remain — On the face of it, the least disruptive result. But there could be a Tory civil war and an entrenching of Brexit support, similar to the 2015 SNP tsunami. I would expect anger from the Brexit camp, but where would it be directed?
2) England Leave + Scotland Remain = UK Remain — An unlikely (but hilarious) result, given the arithmetic of Scotland being only 8% of the electorate. This would unleash all the bitterness of scenario 1, but much of it would be directed at Scots. Several commentators have noted that this is England’s de facto indyref, and Scotland would have overruled it. It would emphasis the difference in political travel between England and Scotland, and shatter the illusion of a unified British identity. The result in England would need to be very tight for Scottish votes to make a difference, which might temper the reaction (though probably not).
3) England Leave + Scotland Remain = UK Leave — The indyref2 trigger, with the caveat that we would only want a referendum if we could win it. Some No voters would become pro-indy on principle. Others would see the direction of travel and it would give them a reason to change their minds. Prior to calling another referendum, the Scottish Government might try negotiating directly with Brussels for a Scottish opt-out (or opt-in) similar to the Greenland/Denmark scenario. This could be very interesting, and would help get EU countries on side. There are consequences for NI (and potentially Wales). A pro-Brexit NI leadership might be content to follow England, but would the people?
—
Finally, and I can’t see it happening, a Scottish Leave vote would be a disaster. Leaving aside the implications for the economy, workers’ rights, freedom of movement, etc., it would confirm all the charges of separatism and parochialism thrown at us during the indyref. Voters in Scotland need to turn out in numbers and vote Remain.
Anyway, I’m afraid none of this is of any use to undecided voters living in England…
Aye right, I’m completely taken in, say more crap like that coz I’m falling for it
@DR Jim
the SNP voters that I actually know personally are voting OUT, It did surprise me, as I thought a vote for the SNP was a vote for radical policies and progressive ideas.
It seems they bemoan their declining living standards and public sector cuts, overloaded NHS etc , as much as the fabled bus driver in Basildon.
Which does seem odd as we are two different countries with radically different politics.
I am voting remain, though could not care a jot, as not much will change even if we vote out.
The only thing that swayed my vote was Alan Sugar, saying “You don’t win a fight by running away, stay in and reform from the inside”
And off course I am a admirer of David Cameron, what he has done for the country, by tackling difficult problems and cutting the deficit.
Above all I owe him for saving Britain back in 2014, and I expect the large part of the Scottish remain vote will be loyalty towards him.
What makes a country wealthy is having an excess of resources it wishes to sell to those that want it. Leave aside the corruption of keeping that wealth from the general population, many a village, town & city became prosperous on the back of the resources right under the feet of those who lived there.
My own wee village, Culross was by 18th century standards, a wealthy village because it sold to our European trading partners in the low countries, salt, coal & iron products in return for materials & products either not available here or available at lower costs there such as the unique red pantiles commonly seen only in Fife.
While Royal Assents may have been issued to their respective Burghs, in essence no membership of a political club was necessary so long as there was easy money to be made from the exchange for goods & services.
The American colonies & trading partners in China provided each other with access to enormous quantities of hard & soft goods upon which fortunes were made & lost.
The point is that as long as Scotland has a sufficient number of goods & services available in a timely manner at a reasonable price, a way will be found to sell them to somebody who wants them, regardless of the political philosophies of governments.
In summary then, it will matter not one jot whether Scotland is in the EU or out of the EU with regard to its balance of trade. It has been positive for decades and will seem likely to enjoy this position unlike our friends in England who have suffered years of massive negative trade balance accounts because they either make a bunch of shit that nobody outside of England wants or are so unproductive that they can’t sell it at a price that is deemed attractive.
But don;t take my word for it. George “Towel Folder” Osborne’s own trade balance numbers make for frightening reads for those genuinely interested in our country’s accounts. I would suggest a stiff drink of Scottish whisky however before slipping on yer reading glasses.
It’s a difficult decision, but I don’t think I could live with possibility that I had contributed to a lurch to the right. I am utterly convinced that will happen following brexit.
Do yourself a favour and try not to give too much heed to the campaigns on either side. Ignore them – you are not voting based on the merits or demerits of Leave or Remain. The campaigns are two ugly sisters – nothing to separate them.
Go with your gut instinct as Scots who desire independence from our suffocating neighbours to the south but not an isolationist position in the world. It has to be a REMAIN vote for me. I find that I am not and never have been in any doubt about that.
I think a case could be made for pro-independence types living in England voting Remain. It’s hard to say for certain, but whilst a UK exit vote overriding a Scottish desire to stay could certainly result in IndyRef2 I don’t think a vote for independence is sufficiently likely at the moment. (I certainly feel it’s more likely than at any time up until now, but likely enough?) And a second vote against independence really would take the issue off the table for decades.
OTOH, as others have said above, if an English desire for exit is over-ridden by a Scottish vote to say (the Welsh and N.Irish also get a say obviously, but I doubt the media will pay much attention to them) then the response from certain sections of the media and the political types “down south” may well help lay the ground work for a successful IndyRef2 at a more precipitous moment.
… but I don’t envy the choice that pro-independence types in England face, because you can argue it either way.
The only thing that swayed my vote was Alan Sugar, saying “You don’t win a fight by running away, stay in and reform from the inside”
Jings, didnae ken Sugar wis a supporter of Scottish independence.
Greece was treated very badly by Germany in particular when the worldwide recession impacted on the eurozone. The Germans are happy to enjoy the many advantages that a shared currency has given them, but have entirely failed to recognise that a shared currency can only work if there’s also a means of making wealth transfers to poorer regions that can no longer devalue to cope. As for the Greeks, it’s often conveniently forgotten here that they were fiddling their taxes on an industrial scale and had filled up a bloated public sector with party placemen. They were living on borrowed time anyway.
That’s the Eurozone. Which we aren’t in.
The recession was worldwide. It’s not all down to the EU.
Or foreigners.
And even the Greeks, bless them, still don’t want to leave. So why not follow their example…?
@ Mark Fletcher 4:52pm
Sums it up perfectly.
Its a no brainer, im a scottish indy supporter living over thirty years in england so i shall be voting leave.
I would just vote leave in England’s Indy Ref to get payback for all the English holiday home owners who voted Naw in the Scottish Ref.
Just be spiteful would be my advice Stu. 🙂
Speaking personally, I’m more than a bit upset the Wee Bleu Book wasn’t enough to convince you, Rev. I’m also all too aware of the frustration of having mendacious liars on the same side as me. But then, I’m certain that it wasn’t politicians who made the biggest impact on indyref for most voters: it was businesses, public figures, and (depressingly) newspapers. If anything, the politicians probably repelled them on both sides for the exact reasons you cite.
If I was living in England, I would be voting remain for the simple fact that there are many EU citizens who are being denied a vote in a referendum which affects them most of all. I recall when all those EU Citizens for Yes campaigned for Scottish independence: people from Wales, Catalonia, Venice, Flanders, Sardinia, Corsica, all across Europe, all supported each other for independence within the EU. I think of all the people who came into Yes Inverclyde, worried that a Yes vote would mean they would be sent back home to Europe. If nothing else, I would vote Remain because they can’t vote at all.
Regarding Greece, I have a socialist pal who is German-Greek, having lived in both countries and with German & Greek parents. He doesn’t like the EU primarily because of the power of certain larger member states and the usual CAPITALISM BAD stuff (which I don’t really disagree with). While he despises Germany for most of the Greek crisis, he absolutely *hates* Tsiparis for selling Greece down the river. As you say, it’s complicated.
Because they already agreed to the first indyref. The onus would be on them to prove why it was perfectly fine for them to agree to a referendum then, but not now.
Brian McHugh,
… and tory in the SG election!
Oh, Papko, you say the funniest things. No wonder dakk was laughing.
Do you know, there’s a guy works down my chip shop swears he’s Elvis?
I’m Remain because it’s the only way I see of perhaps getting Indyref2 but we really need to get the vote out. I sense no enthusiasm for this EU referendum but It is essential we get a result which accentuates the different attitudes in Scotland and England. And if it does, will it be “allowed”?
I can smell Cameron’s panic from here and once again I fear the for integrity of the PV vote in particular.
Rev, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
I consider the whole thing a Tory farce. I shall vote for the status quo as both sides have failed to make a case.
On saying that, I can think of no circumstance where I would vote for ‘Leave’ with Boris, IDS, Gove, and Farage at the helm. They are dangerous men.
We are where we are. The only way is reform, rather than retreat.
There is a clear and present danger that England will vote to Leave and suck the rest of us into the Black Hole that is the rEmpire.
I take your point about the ECB and the IMF over riding the will of the people of Greece.
However, what chance would we Scots have, if we were left to the mercy of the SE Establishment, and their Political Wing at WM?
I shall ‘remain’, and take it from there.
That’s 4 Remains in this little family group; Pissing out of the tent syndrome, if you like.
Good luck with the tussle on Thursday.
I’ll be voting to stay in the EU. It is finely balanced, but then, where a decision is finely balanced, it may come down to other factors – in my case Scottish independence.
Nothing in life is fixed, and by 2021, the SNP might easily be despised by the electorate, for whatever reason. Not so long ago, Labour were pretty much loved by all, and now look at where they are – down on polling levels with UKIP.
Wait for the perfect time, and you might wait forever. We need to be bold regarding Scotland. Take any chance when it comes our way. I mean we did wait over 300 hundred years for the first referendum, and I do want Scottish independence before I am dead.
Personally, I don’t think the EU is so bad. Despite what some may think, it has a lot of good points, which help to prevent the excesses of Westminster Tory rule, and other extreme voices across Europe.
So, I’ll vote remain.
If you live in Scotland and support Scottish indy you MUST vote Remain.
If you live in rUK and support Scottish indy you MUST vote LEAVE.
Simples.
Cynical? You bet!
Not Convinced says:
I think a case could be made for pro-independence types living in England voting Remain. It’s hard to say for certain,
possibly, but i would wait for the result before announcing which way i voted,
if it is a narrow remain and scots votes are shown to be responsable, i would tell everyone i voted remain, even if i didnt, just to annoy the unionists 🙂
ditto for a narrow brexit
Where is it written that countries are only allowed two referendums on independence? I think we’ll probably have to wait until several hundred thousand No voters have “shuffled off this mortal coil” before we can win our independence,but as far as I’m concerned,a Brexit induced Indyref2 would be a free shottie worth having if it came our way.
I have really struggled too. However just a few days ago I saw the argument which cemented my vote. The EU acts as a conduit to redirect money from Westminster and the South East. Monies sent to the EU are returned in the form of grants which often serve to benefit some of the poorest areas in the UK. The monies save from non membership I do not believe will be distributed in this way (I think Gove suggested a guarantee ’till 2020?… thereafter who knows.). The Highlands and Islands have certainly benefitted from EU grants. I am sure lots of other areas have too, so it is for that reason, for me, it will be REMAIN.
Pound back up to 1.30E. Stock market up. Looks like the postal votes are leaking again. It must be nice to be so well connected.
@Papko
Keep it coming Nigel entertainment’s always a good thing
You know, I’m beginning to wonder if BoJo himself is having second thoughts about this “Leave” business. He seems to have gone very quiet lately, and not just in the aftermath of Jo Cox’s killing. A whole lot of promises have been made that he must surely know that – even as PM – he can’t possibly hope to deliver.
Maybe he has seen the same video talk that I think tarisgal referenced and artyhetty kindly linked to here:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/there-are-crocodiles/#comment-2155272
We have been obsessing here about what it might or might not mean for Scottish independence, but the likely actual consequences of “Leave” are something to ponder. This isn’t some lying politician, this is an academic with a deep knowledge of the situation feeling obliged to impart some insight as to what the real outcome is likely to be, and does it in a very quiet understated way.
(I particularly blinked at the bit where he said there aren’t enough civil servants to re-negotiate in a sensible time all the bilateral trade treaties that would be required!)
A “must watch” before finally deciding how to vote.
For as long as I can remember I have been Scottish and European but never British, the Brits have been responsible for a great deal of strife in our world through the Empire and vote leave want to go there again. That is my only reason for voting to remain I’m done listening to the crap from both sides.
@Sensibledave 1.45
‘I am going to vote leave now – because of Project Fear!’
Look Dave,I told you months ago you’d be voting leave to try get your navy blue British passport back.
I was right.
I also told you your people would crap it in the face of Project Fear 2.
Right again.
I’m rather enjoying watching your ‘British democracy’crapping all over you people the way they did us.The irony.
Do suck it up,theres a good chap.
@Taranaich…Because they already agreed to the first indyref. The onus would be on them to prove why it was perfectly fine for them to agree to a referendum then, but not now.
I’m sure they could come up with several reasons, but the most obvious would be that the last SNP Govt. won an outright majority at Holyrood on a manifesto pledge to hold Indy Ref. 1.
It would have been impossible for Westminster’s then coalition Govt. to ignore the SNP’s mandate, given the election result.
This time however, the SNP did not stand in 2016 on a manifesto pledge to hold Indy Ref. 2 in the event of a UK Leave/Scotland Remain scenario, and the SNP was not returned as a majority administration.
Without the mandate which the last Scottish Government was seen to have in terms of the manifesto pledge and parliamentary majority, Westminster can easily state that this time around there is no mandate, and that in order to obtain such the SNP/Scottish Govt. should resign and, in the Scottish General Election which would follow, run on a pledge to hold Indy Ref. 2.
Westminster might state that if the same circumstances for Indy Ref. 1 exist post a 2017 Scottish Election, (an SNP manifesto pledge to hold referendum and the SNP going on to form a majority administration), that similar legislation which allowed for Indy ref. 1 in 2014 referendum could be passed to permit Indy Ref. 2 in late 2017; enabling the outcome to be determined prior to rUK-exit in late 2018.
If the same circumstances exist for Indy Ref. 1 then Westminster can’t legitimately block Indy Ref. 2. However, without another Scottish Election to create those same circumstances, Westminter can block any Indy Ref. 2 and claim to do so legitimately.
Remain here, it’s the only thing to do if you want to continue fighting for independence, and work to create the right circs.
George Kerevan in the National making a last pitch for Remain, and cleverly slipping in, that Scotland would be seeking to use their ‘soft power’ to influence change in the EU.
@Dr Jim, you called it correctly (again!) that Nicola Stormborn, is not the kind of khaleesi, that sits on her behind, when the Right are shredding each other for months to come. No way would Kerevan would drop that in, without it being a plan.
Regardless of outcome, SNP will keep building the bridges that benefit our country, and still stay agile enough to exploit the ensuing bedlam.
However, being ruthless, I hope England vote out and we vote Remain.
Has anyone seen Ruth? She has fallen strangely quiet.
Worth a look.
https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-industrial-scale-eu-law-expert-analyses-referendum-debate/
@ dakk
I do concur with you old bean its a spiffing show what lol
Just thought i would drop this here if folks are still wondering what the EU does for us.
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/brexit-video-viewed-112000-scots/
@robertknight
I agree a Brexit will not automatically be construed as grounds for indyref2. However, bear in mind the SNP manifesto fall back was ‘material change’.
Lots of material changes affecting Scotland following Brexit are possible.
Scotland vote Remain by a large margin;
WM moves to change Barnett to our detriment;
Another General Election, with a hard right gov’t. that financially punishes Scotland even more;
Very poor trade settlement to the UK, by the EU, which we lose important investment
That’s just off the top of my head, because if there is a Brexit, the decline will unroll, and start to dawn on the No voters here.
BTW. Where’s Ruth????
(I’ve changed my name from Bill (William). I’ve moved to Wales from Canada on June 3rd, and I was on time to register. I’ve been undecided, but now I’ve decided to vote Leave. If I were in Scotland I would vote Remain.
My hope is that there will be a slight majority of English votes to leave, but that the majority Scottish vote to remain will keep the UK in the EU. I think that the English will be so furious that they’ll want us to become independent. We’ll be like chain around their ankles.
Vote how you like. If it is a leave vote, the referendum will be rerun. That is what happened in Ireland after all when the people returned the wrong result.
Many pundits and journalists seem to equate the Out (Yes) of IndyRef to the Out (Leave) of EURef, and similarly In (No) and In (Remain). I completely fail to see that logic and believe they are trying to invent another SNPBaaad angle out of events. Also, to try to get some of the racism and extremism of Leave to rub off on Yes.
I believe they have got this totally arse for elbow.
View both referendums as being about increasing or diminishing the power of Great England. The options which drive power towards London are No and Leave. The option to distribute and diminish London’s power are Yes and Remain.
This isn’t just a game semantics. Consider where the forces of British/English nationalism fall, Leave and No. Then look at the gutter media, backing Leave and No. Similarly the nastier right wing elements, they find their natural home in Leave and No.
There is more to it than the simple model eg. Jim Sillars out for Leave, and one faction of the ever toxic Tories out for Remain. However trying to equate Yes to Leave in any way, is just total nonsense.
Tried posting this earlier but URL was apparently too long.
Here’s hoping and worth watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
Agree with Skintybroko at 6.09. For some of us auld yins there has been, apart from the break up of Yugoslavia, a peace bonus in Europe since 1945. The EU was founded very much with that in mind. The Rev mentions the economic havoc caused to Greece and the bullying solution imposed on them by German banks and, of course, that’s true. It’s also true (Wiki) that the Greeks lost more than 500,000 (mostly civilian) dead in WW2.
Really who cares about the EU I don’t because as someone said Westminster will decide how the vote goes. I will be voting out but don’t hold out much hope of a Brexit it aint going to happen just like Independence.
Ruth? Last seen sitting on a fence, lips tightly closed waiting to see which way she will fall. You should hear the thud sometime late on Thursday night. Then you will hear a squeak coming through pursed lips before her grim wee moo starts moving and her pudgy wee fingers stab at her phone. She has two messages saved and ready to send, “yeah David!” and “yeah Boris!”.
It doesn’t matter what she says she’s irrelevant and she knows it.
Andy D
Stupid post, this isn’t Twitter you’re supposed to formulate an argument not just fart and walk out, stupid boy!
Robert J. Sutherland said at 5:57 pm
You know, I’m beginning to wonder if BoJo himself is having second thoughts about this “Leave” business. He seems to have gone very quiet lately, and not just in the aftermath of Jo Cox’s killing. A whole lot of promises have been made that he must surely know that – even as PM – he can’t possibly hope to deliver.
Well first of all I reckon that BoJo’s position in the referendum was mostly, if not entirely, based upon what he thought would be best for BoJo! With what he thought would be best for the Tory party coming a distant second … As for what he thought would be best for the UK? Well that would clearly be covered by what would be best for BoJo wouldn’t it? 😀
However you raise an interesting point when you say “A whole lot of promises have been made”, as I got a Leave leaflet today which states the following (emphasis mine) :-
“Major new powers like fishing and agriculture would devolved to Holyrood, not Westminster when we bring them back from the EU.”
Notice the use of the word “would” – a clear statement of intent I’d say! Almost “vow-like” perhaps? (Except of course we’ve been there before and we know what they’re worth!)
For those who are undecided.
A good bet in any vote is probably: Whatever way the BBC and the rest of the establishment orient towards. Vote the opposite.
BBC EU Debate
Kezia Dugdale now agrees with the FM that the blame for all the cuts to Scotland are the fault of the Tories and if any money from Brexit were to come back the Tories would just keep it so that’s nice
Michael Lord Forsyth who has spent years of his life trying to deny Scotland any powers over anything has now decided he really wants MORE powers for Scotland
Jim Sillars has lost his memory
Joanna Cherry the one with the biggest brain there is practically dumfounded at the Brainlessness of all of them
But has pointed out that while the control of more stuff would revert to Scotland the finances to govern them wouldn’t and would stay reserved (Agg and Fish)
Sillars sounding like a Yoon saying Sturgeon has no mandate. Except if you add the Greens the Scottish parliament can put the bill through. Sillars please fuck Off.
If Leave win but Scotland votes remain by a significant majority then we will win any future independence referendum by a considerable margin.
Soft no voters are now readily admitting that they would vote yes in such a scenario and feel comfortable saying it in polite society.
When the second indyref comes they will be able to say that they are voting yes because we were dragged out of the EU and the vow was broken and not feel sullied by their reasoning being associated with the SNP.
ephemeraldeception
Oh vote in then ok! Thanks.
Juan P
well said! The fact is if you’re a unionist in Scotland you will probably vote out because you love England more than anything else, and being downtrodden suits your personality, forever subservient, cap doffing, arse licking unionist. Even if it will cost you your job, pension and whatever scary stories are doing the rounds you will go down singing “rule Britannia”
Now if you’re a sensible independence supporting chap, who genuinely believes that the EU is EVEL then you still have to vote remain, because we may need the support of Europe if England goes all right wing nut job on us, and refuses Indy ref 2!
O/T … to some extent.
Joanna Cherry (Remain), Kezia Dugdale ( R), Jim Sillars (Leave) and Lord Forsythe ( L) have been debating Brexit tonight on Reporting Scotland. Hosted by Glen Campbell.
A bit of a mixed bag with one Remainer and one Leaver in favour of Independence and vice versa.
Thank God for Joanna Cherry. The only one really holding up the Remain side … and REALLY sorting out wee Forsythe, for example, highlighting what Westminster still has control over.
Forsythe was going on about unelected individuals in the EU making all of the decisions for Scotland. A man in the audience shouted out ‘pot calling the kettle black”. Forsythe said I imagine you’re talking about me because I’m in the HoLs, but I was voted out in (whatever year). Joanna Cherry said ”but you’re still here” … to clapping from the audience.
As to Jim Sillars he’s one snake in the grass and I’m actually beginning to doubt that he’s an SNP member at all. He spent more time mumping on about Nicola Sturgeon (basically calling her a liar) and the SNP than he did on talking about he EU. An old fart (no offence to the elderly) who is well past his sell by date trying to claim his 15 minutes of fame at every turn now. I used to admire the man but really, really can’t stand him now: it’s all about him and his big ego.
Interesting article from Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp:
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/gordon-macintyre-kemp-out-of-the-uk-in-the-eu-confusing-times-ahead.18346
He’s upbeat about 2nd referendum prospects if we vote Remain and overall vote is Leave. Points out we’d have up to 2 years to negotiate our own deal with the EU and, if we get a good one, EU citizens who voted No in the last referendum would certainly switch sides.
I hope the Rev drew the genitals from memory and not by drawing around his own with a pencil
Hi robertknight.
What if a pro-indy MSP in the Scottish Parliament puts forward a motion (bill?) that indyref2 should be held?
Put to a vote, the parliament has a majority of pro-indy MSP’s. The vote should carry.
As MSP’s are elected by “the sovereign people of Scotland”, how could Westminster deny the right? The UN could have something to say…
Habib Steele aka Bill @6.41
If you live in Wales you should vote Remain. Wales is due 2 billion euros between 2014 – 20 from the EU Structural Funds.
Scotland due 0.9 billion and N.I. 0.5 billion euros. If it is Brexit do you think the Tories will share out that money from the ‘savings’?
Like Stu I live outwith Scotland. Unlike Stu, I don’t have a vote as I’ve been living in other parts of the EU.
If I could, I’d be voting remain. Firstly for purely selfish reasons. My wife is an EU citizen. My children were born abroad and are EU citizens. I work in the EU and need the freedom to work.
Secondly, the brexiteers seem to want a state that I wouldn’t want to return to and I don’t know if Scotland would get her independence. Unfortunately, as in 2014, I have to rely on others to vote the right way.
If the UK leaves I hope Scotland gets independence and stays in the EU. If not I’ll be taking another citizenship and staying in the EU.
I’ve already voted to remain. Anyway it won’t matter a jot how we vote as the fact is all referenda are ignorable by governments and, as far as Cameron is concerned, the UK Government’s motive in holding a referendum was not to take the UK out, (Note Britain is NOT an EU member state), but was to hold a threat over the EU so Cameron could get his own way.
He backed a loser in no mistake and he will manipulate things to suit himself if he doesn’t get the Heave-Ho first.
I cannot see the present Tory party living in harmony no matter how the vote goes. There may be just the inevitable simple change of leadership but more than likely the Tory Party is about to burn up and destroy itself.
Scotland First, Last and Always has been my mantra for ever. So I believe like others that Indy2 = Remain in Scotland and Leave in England.
We would have time to build on the betrayal and the resulting mayhem at WM.
Council take over next year. Indyref2 in 2018/19?
Joan Cherry – what a woman! Got several points out there and refused to be outdone by Forsyth and Sillars – brilliant.
ps Rev – you’re no Chris Cairns.lol
The worse case scenario, Scotland votes out. Unlikely, but not impossible. If that did happen, Scotland is quite frankly, fckd.
A engexit, we are still fckd, but might have a chance to extricate ourselves, some day in the not too distant future, from UKOK.
At the moment, the EU offers some protection from the extreme right britnats. My feeling is it will be a leave, narrowly, brrrrrrrr. Hopefully I am just very pessimistic. Rule englatania, fckg great.
Had to laugh at Dipity Dug on what the BBC called an EU debate.
A couple of weeks back she was will to look at Scottish Independence, if England Voted out against her wishes.
She has now been officially advised by Labour Westminster that she is not to think on behalf of the North Accounting Unit, she and they will be told what they think.
Just exactly like Lamont said, they pull all the strings that the Slab puppets dance to.
Dim Jim was another who claimed autonomy, only to be slapped down when he come with his own daft ideas.
PS Dipity was very relaxed tonight.
She must think that not getting sacked after Leading Labour’s worst Scottish General Election result in 100 years, means a Knighthood in her old age.
“The UK’s entire political establishment should be ashamed of itself.”
The shameless b——s don’t have any shame to be ashamed of, never did.
galamcennalath @ 18:46,
You have it dead bang right. “Leave” is all about validating Great England. If that’s what you really believe in, fair enough, vote for that. Otherwise…
As the Rev wrote about the Scottish elections, you can’t game this thing. There are some results that might help indy more than others, but there’s no way when going into that polling booth you can possibly figure that out. So forget the gaming tosh, you have to choose whichever outcome you can best live with, since you (and your kids) may well be stuck with it for some time.
One thing that became clear from that video I mentioned earlier is that virtually everyone doesn’t understand what this two-year post-Brexit period is about. It’s only about deciding what to do with the EU citizens living here, and the Brits living in the EU. It’s not about trade deals. They will take a lot longer, and will only start after we are truly out the door. Never mind Scottish indy, the sheer man-hours required to deal with the consequences of an exit are enormous. Vast swathes of legislation will have to be gone through, and Parliament just won’t be able to handle the volume. It will all have to be in the hands of BoJo and the civil servants he commands. While they also try to set up bilateral trade deals with the rest of the world.
But watch the video and make up your own mind.
For anyone who has Scottish independence as a priority, Vote Remain if you are in Scotland, vote Leave if you are in England.
The EU establishment is as rotten to the core as the UK establishment.
Brexit would shake it to its foundations.
An independent Scotland would be in a good position to renegotiate its membership of a reformed EU.
But Brexit is not going to happen in my view. A rigged Remain result is guaranteed by the Establishment and Big Business.
“On the one hand, the polls on independence have barely shifted in the last 21 months.”
Even with an “independence supporting” newspaper?
It must be remain for Scotland,if not”I See a Bad Moon Rising”
Petra load of shite you type about Jim Sillars in my opinion pet .
Voting stay in Scotland won’t get you a second referendum all you are doing is adding to the total overall vote for that serial liar Cameron , remember his actions only hours after the Scottish referendum result and you trust him ? .
All the wee nasty stuff the EU has parked in the fridge untill gulable fools vote away any chance of stopping them – Extra money from net contributors to pay for a bloated never questioned budget is on the way ,TTIP has not been stopped , GMO adulterated food will be introduced in Europe , American beef with all the associated hormones and steroids is on its way .
Every single Government has told us lies about our ever closer political involvement with Europe yes this soon to be United States of Europe the only thing missing is a standing Army all the other prerequisite requirements of a nation state are in place , yes by all means give them the green light .
I live in England and voted leave by postal vote. Was home in ABZ for the weekend to find another postal vote. I resisted the temptation to break the law as I think we will vote remain in Scotland. England (unless there is a LARGE ‘silent majority’) will be voting out from what I can see. The immigration thing is an overwhelming draw amongst the locals. To think we were smeared as blood and soil nationalists!!! That type of nationalism waves a Union Jack and reacts through pure angry failed suppremist ignorance.
How are the queen’s eleven getting on?
Rock @20:48 said:
Duh. What an utterly trite throwaway comment. We’re all living in the house that’s standing on those foundations.
In your anti-establishment paranoia, you probably don’t even realise that this is precisely the neo-liberal party line. Let “creative chaos” rule, and the deil tak the hindmost.
Well, I’m not with you there. I think there is such a thing as society. Oh, and the sun does shine sometimes.
Almannysbunnet – she’s not irrelevant , just very ambitious.
Remember Mcavity – Broon – never to be found if controversy could implicate him or harm his chances
Ruth Mcavity Mark 2
Hi Brian
As I indicated earlier, the Constitution is off-limits to Holyrood and the PO would be forced to stop any such Bill in its tracks well before it was even put to a vote – and it certainly woudn’t receive the Royal Assent required to become an Act of the Scottish Parliament.
I didn’t watch Sillars, but if his argument runs along the line of Westminster being able to state that the current SNP administartion doesn’t have a mandate for Indy Ref. 2 then I would agree.
Such a mandate comes only with the same circumstances for Indy Ref. 1, i.e. the SNP having won an outright majority at Holyrood on a manifesto pledge to conduct an Indy Ref.
Only in such circumstances will Westminster be made to go down the same road of passing the necessary legislation to make the referendum possible; and only following another Scottish Election, whether held sooner rather than later, will such an opportunity exist.
Skintybroko,
“For as long as I can remember I have been Scottish and European but never British”
According to our resident history and geography expert Robert Peffers, not only are you “British”, you will remain “British” even after Scotland becomes independent!
Just read an article on PoliticsHome saying NS will go directly to Brussels if there is a Leave vote.
She will negotiate Scotland staying in somehow even if England leave. Not quite sure if that is possible but here’s hoping.
Can you imagine the outrage from all sides in Westminster! Particularly Boris and Farage. It will be a joy to behold.
20 June, 2016 at 8:57 pm
Petra load of shite you type about Jim Sillars in my opinion pet
What’s with the pet, dick?
First thing Brexit UKOK land, Nissan up sticks and move back into the EU. So England will have just one more Museum of UKOK Industry. And then, every other Nissan type firm does exactly the same.
Got that reality, pet?
Robert J. Sutherland,
“Duh. What an utterly trite throwaway comment. We’re all living in the house that’s standing on those foundations.”
You don’t really want Scotland to be independent do you?
Scotland would be OUT of the UK house.
Spent most of my working life in the fishing industry.
Most of the time it seemed to be a battle against the EU, but also Westminster with some of their stupid legislation.
I cannot remember any occasion when any Westminster fishing minister really stood up for the Scottish industry. We were just a side issue.
Having said that I will vote to remain, because the fishing industry cannot go any lower than where it has been these last few years, and I think there may be a lot more people in different employment who would benefit from staying in.
People like Jim Sillars do nothing for me. He really doesn’t know what side of the fence to sit on.
I have watched, listened and read a real load of pish this last few weeks. Very few have come up with simple reasons for in or out, so I am just doing what I think is best for other people.
It’s IN for me.
The video of Professor Michael Dougan’s talk regarding the European Union was extremely informative. Worth watching again.
So, “Remain” it is, then. I shall instruct my Xardaukar Legions accordingly. 😀
heedtracker@9.17
Well said heedtracker! Reminds me if that advert for tea a few years ago, and the plumber says, ‘make us a cup o tea love’ to the woman, so she majes the tea, then tots up the costs for electricity fir the water, the teabag, the labour etc, and says ‘that’ll be £30.85, love’. Or thereabouts, sounds quite reasonable for a nice cuppa. My son loved that ad and we still talk about it! It was for a ‘Scottish’ tea brand!
Anyway, a bit if trivia, but these patronising commenters, need challenged.
Happy solstice everyone, in bonny Scotland. Well and in some other quite nice places, like Bath.
🙂
Yeah, it’s a dilemma. When the EU Ref was announced it quickly became clear that UK out but Scotland in was a great boon for Indy. So an Indy supporter in Scotland could be expected to vote IN even if he or show hated the EU. Similarly an Indy supporter in England could be expected to vote OUT even if he/she loved the EU and all it stood for.
But that’s cynical and dishonest, and the thing is that if the UK does vote out but Scotland in, then we’re all hoping Unionists will indeed change their minds about Indy, with the EU being more important to them.
But what if we’re all seen to be being dishonest? Might that not put them off, giving support to Indy and a dishonest Indy movement?
So basically speaking I decided to vote according to my own conscience, and beliefs, which isn’t easy as my business in the past was shafted by the EU and its dishones coporate led Directives, which have the intent of squeexing out the little business like me.
But having as all businesses do, changed and survived, an increasing amount of my business comes from the EU, and in fact some, perhaps much of that growing percentage comes from the EU whereas otherwise it wouldn’t. Because the EU does have its silly regulations, it’s not as easy for non-EU countries to import into any part of the EU. So I’ll probably be a remain, and I’d better get that posted tomorrow.
So I guess all in all my advice would be to vote honestly, as apart from acttually being honest, that helps to encourage that same honesty in the Unionists we want to win over to the cause of Indy.
Just looked at oddschecker, they’ve shorted the odds on Stay to 1/4 or even 2/9. But it’s still important to get out and vote.
As a Scotsman living in England (SNP member for 40 years) and married to a Liberal Englishwoman with a born in England child I can confirm that she hates the idea of brexit winning and wouldn’t want to live a country which voted brexit. My offspring isn’t really bothered but will vote and leaning towards brexit and I get a generally understanding ear from my friends who hear I will vote brexit to further our aim of freedom
@Xaracen
Mr Dougan doesn’t miss an hit the wa, that’s fer sure.
https://caltonjock.com/2016/06/20/jo-cox-the-truth-if-you-can-handle-it/
I really pity anyone trying to make an informed choice.
On principle a sovereign country should be sovereign and I fully understand why people don’t want to devolve that sovereignty to Europe.
In the case of the UK we live in now, I see the handing back of that sovereignty to the current govt which is basically run by financial elites and the aristocracy as a disaster, hence I will vote to stay.
As for the actions of the troika against Greece, I fully agree, this was unforgivable yet people forget that Greece was/is a sovereign country and could have taken back power. It could have formed a parallel currency called the drachma and re denominated its debt in that currency. what could the troika do then? Sweet F.A.
Just look to Argentina who defaulted on its foreign denominated debt in the 90s as an example.
There would be much thrashing around and gnashing of teeth, followed by possibly the threat of Spain and Italy’s departure from the Euro, but life would go on,
Greece would have a devalued currency which would make it a very attractive tourist destination again, creating jobs and bringing foreign currency into the country etc until things rebalanced.
Had the Greeks been serious about this I believe the troika would have backed down with the threat of their demise in mind. Greece is a sovereign country which voluntarily by its govt decided to capitulate to financial terrorism.
I believe that post brexit, Scotland could be in a favourable position (provided there is a clear demand for indyref) over how it approaches the EU. My worry is that we have an ‘anything but england’ view and rush into a ill-thought through arrangement. Using the euro would be a disaster, using the pound makes no sense.
We should look at Iceland and Greece should look at Iceland too. An example of a tiny country who basically ‘broke’ all the mainstream economic rules. It deficit spent its way out of chaos, issued capital controls to protect its currency and its citizens and it has come through with a growing economy and low unemployment. Greece and the rest of the PIIGS don’t have the ability to do that because they use a foreign currency called the euro.
The warning signs are out there for Scotland over how it runs its affairs. At the moment its policy over its currency is at best incoherent.
@ Robert Graham says at 8:57 pm …. ”Petra load of shite you type about Jim Sillars in my opinion pet. Voting stay in Scotland won’t get you a second referendum all you are doing is adding to the total overall vote for that serial liar Cameron, remember his actions only hours after the Scottish referendum result and you trust him?”
Oh well I’ll leave that (sh*te) for others to decide Robert if / when they watch the programme. To my mind he did his UTMOST tonight to undermine Nicola Sturgeon’s credibility and the SNP.
As to voting Remain or Leave? If I (and many others) vote to leave there’s every possibility that we’ll find ourselves being ruled by a Bojo Facist run Westminster. He’s another narcissistic, serial liar and even more right wing than Cameron.
”Serial liar Cameron, remember his actions only hours after the Scottish referendum result and you trust him?”
I trust him! What makes you think that I trust Cameron, Robert? I think I’ve got a pretty good idea, like most people on here, of the measure of most of these politicians so, EH, no I don’t trust him. FAR from it. You on the other hand seem to be voting for Boris, Gove and Farage. Do YOU trust THEM? Johnston and Farage who’ve made it clear, publicly, that they can’t stand the Scots. Farage who’s gone as far as to say that he would abolish Holyrood.
As to TTIP there’s real opposition against it within a number of EU countries, whereas Boris et al will welcome it with open arms.
And by the way if you’d read any of my previous posts, probably not if they’re deemed to be a load of sh*te, you would see that I have GRAVE reservations about the EU but, at this moment in time as we all find ourselves between a rock and a hard place, I’d rather be part of the UK in the EU than in a UK being run by a bunch of overtly racist madmen unrestrained by EU regulations in relation to Human Rights, employment and so on.
If England votes to Leave and we vote to Remain (in high numbers) we’ll have an opportunity to get our Independence in a way that we wont have under an EU-less Bojo. The guy you’re seemingly voting for. Following Independence we’ll take it, or not – the EU, from there.
…………………………………………
@ robertknight says at 9:14 pm …. ”I didn’t watch Sillars, but if his argument runs along the line of Westminster being able to state that the current SNP administration doesn’t have a mandate for Indy Ref. 2 then I would agree. Such a mandate comes only with the same circumstances for Indy Ref. 1, i.e. the SNP having won an outright majority at Holyrood on a manifesto pledge to conduct an Indy Ref. Only in such circumstances will Westminster be made to go down the same road of passing the necessary legislation to make the referendum possible; and only following another Scottish Election, whether held sooner rather than later, will such an opportunity exist.”
Jim Sillars did bring that up on the Scotland Tonight programme Robert and Joanna Cherry countered his argument.
@Petra
You just have to ignore old Jim Sillars he’s the old fashioned type and gone grumpy because nobody will listen to him and he can’t forgive the EU for not siding with Scotland during our Ref, which nobody serious expected them to, they did what they were asked to do by Cameron who to them represented the member state
The SNPs moved on since Jim and he disnae like it
Just while I remember, I learned something about Mark Carney the BOEs most respected number one man, well he might be in England but not in the rest of the Banking world where they call him “The unreliable boyfriend”
Because he never does what he says he will and he never keeps his word
Apparently Mr Carney is a wee bit of a joke in European circles
Who Knew eh
Rock @21:17 said:
C’mon, dear fellow, you have to try harder than that. That’s just “na na na na” playground stuff. Give us something concrete. And preferably positive, please.
Well, if anyone could guarantee that, we wouldn’t all be spending all these countless hours thrashing it all around the houses, now would we?
You may not have noticed, but I have been in there too suggesting some possibly optimal outcomes for indy, but there are (at least) two factors we can’t avoid:
+ England is much bigger than us (to state the bl**dy obvious), and it’s impossible to get them to pitch it just on the right side of leave for us to put a cat among the UKOK pigeons and keep them in. They could easily swamp us, which is and always was the whole point of indy, no?
+ Not all Scots have wised up to the issue over indy in the EUref, and have been played by the Brexiteers. I regret to say it, but it’s true. There’s always plenty takers for easy quick fixes. (Which won’t be, but they’ll only find that out too late.)
I just don’t buy into the argument that indy will be hastened by an overall leave vote. It seems a lazy argument to me. It may well shift some no voters, I’m sure, but enough? The chaos that will follow such a vote may swamp our concerns with all sorts of other issues that England will care about much, much more. Do you really believe the yoon ultras then in charge will shower us with gifts and not do their level best to thwart another uprising in their Scotland Colony?
If you trust them, I have this really nice car going cheap with low mileage and just one old lady driver… =grin=
I believe the most significant and lasting effect of this appalling pair of campaigns is that many people in Scotland are being driven further away from any respect of the London political classes that rule us.
I believe this will be very important indeed.
I think, on balance, independence becomes a harder sell if the UK leaves Europe. It’s tempting to think that winning an indyref could be easier under different circumstances.
But it will be framed as choosing between Britain and Europe. Or the pound and the Euro.
Scotland could gain more control over fishing and agriculture, but at the expense of ever gaining independence.
If we are out of Europe, then that becomes the new normal and it is a harder argument to get people to vote for both independence and to rejoin the EU. Compared to cutting out the middle-man.
And as mentioned above – if we have a Brexit I don’t see Westminster led by the likes of Johnson and Farage rushing to replace any EU funding for Scotland. Croydon will come first.
OH aye one last thing. Ignore both campaigns they’re just politicians and their hangers-on or lickspittles, and represent just 0.01% of the country – whether Scotland or UK. The other 99.99% are us, and we’re the ones that matter.
Enough of the outright majority, you’re not supposed to have one, even if you get the most votes, having control of Holyrood is enough.
Just had a wee look at the Referendum thingy from earlier on.
I used to have a lot of respect for Mr Sillars, but recently he has become more like a character from Still Game.
Shame really.
robertknight at 9.14 and others
I have to keep repeating this. The UN Charter grants the inalienable right of any community to decide how it should be ruled WITHOUT ANY INTERFERENCE FROM ANY OTHER SOURCE.
We do not have to ask in a democracy for permission to decide how should rule ourselves. It is a foundation article of the UN.
All UK (and Spain in the case of Catalonia) can do is bluff that it can stop us having a referendum if our parliament decides to have one. It can’t – and it knows exactly what would be the Scottish reaction if it tried to.
Which is exactly why Westminster co-operated in our recent one.
Still positive, I only arrived in Wales from Canada 19 days ago. My thinking is still in terms of what’s best for Scotland and her independence. As I said earlier, I hope the out vote wins in England but the Scottish remain vote keeps us in. I think that that scenario will lead to the English wanting to kick us out of the UK.
Latest YouGov has leave with a 2% lead! Poll conducted after MPs death.
I think the remain side expected to just walk away with this in England. Lets hope its leave in England and it will be stay in Scotland. I’m not proud I don’t care how we get out of the UK we just must.
@Dave McEwan Hill
Yes, I agree. I’ve wasted no opportunities for pointing out to anyone that both campaigns and both sets of campaigners are appalling.
Re Sillars, he’s an attention-seeking clown.
For people who enjoy football, WOS’s resident pundit, Paula Rose, will be along shortly with full analysis of what happened earlier this evening.
😉
Habib Steele @ 10:42 said:
Hope on. I’m hoping on along with you. But how exactly are you proposing to guarantee that wonderful outcome, when you go out to vote? We’re all ears…
…but I’m not holding my breath for an answer. Duh.
I never took a possible IndyRef2 into consideration when deciding my vote (am pro-Independence, domiciled in England). I’ve always considered Scottish Independence to have little to do with this, and also practically, I believe that the chances of voting Yes remain slim at this time whether we are in or out of the EU. And I’ve pretty much been pro-EU until now.
But the more I looked at the crapheap the EU has become, and more of a crapheap it may become, the more I seriously considered voting Leave.
I ultimately voted Remain, not from anything good about the EU, nor from any of the long-term risks of leaving, but from what will happen in the next 4 years.
If the UK votes Leave, it’s odd-on in my book that Boris Johnson will be come PM. There will be no election til 2020, and he will lead the negotiations in the 2 year period before official withdrawal from the EU, and for at least 2 years thereafter.
When it comes to Residency status for those from the rest of Europe living and working here, and those from the UK living and working in Europe, the Leave campaign refer to the Vienna Convention of Europe (1969) as proof of their claim that those who have residency rights from a treaty retain those rights after a treaty has been revoked.
Aside from the complexity of this document, and the questionable status of pension, work and benefit rights in addition to residency rights, they fail to mention one simple fact: France is not a signatory to the Vienna Convention, and is not bound by being in the EU to honour that Convention.
There are 150,000 UK citizens now living in France,and 125,000 French citizens living in the UK.
Neither he nor any of the team on his side has shown a scrap of the talent, rationality and diplomacy needed to deal with this matter, to avoid causing huge disruptions at the very least to many thousands of people, families and businesses.
I believe that there are many good reasons to leave the EU. But not with this lot of fucknuggets at the helm.
I just texted an English mate to ask how he was voting in the English Independence Referendum. LOL
We’ll see what he comes back with 🙂
I live in England and myself and the wife are voting out, even though we want to stay in. It’s a gamble but one I’m willing to take.
To me, this referendum is the equivalent of being forced to choose between being rodgered with either a cactus or a large Scotch bonnet chilli…
How prescient of you Ian Brotherhood Dear – well first of all the result
Walrus 2 Engslo 0 as to the full analysis I’ll put that on Off-topic.
tartanarse, it’s not really a gamble. It’s not like you are voting for a constituency that can be won by 7 votes like in Glasgow recently. Your vote will merely be a tiny cog in a bloody big clock.
Awizgonny,
Your posting reminded me of another BT argument of recent unfond memory, that “separation” was going to make foreigners of all the English people living here. Jeez, just how hollow all that sounds now!
DMH (and no doubt others too) are right about how shoogly a peg the Unionist case is going to hang on the next time round…
Definitely In, I trust Nicola, my brother is voting out in England. (think he’s drunk the koolaid, but I really don’t care enough to get into it with him cause it suits our aims to have as big a remain vote as possible, as a counter to the Brexit lot in England).
I really think it will be an overall Remain though. Like many I’m deeply cynical regarding postal votes. I don’t think the Establishment is going to ‘allow’ an exit from the EU.
Macart, very informative, thanks…where would we be if it wasn’t for Wings and t’internet eh? 😉
I’m posting that again in case anyone hasn’t seen it cause they haven’t read the entire thread (which is just unimaginable to my vilecybernatical mind):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
We are going to be livestreaming from the Emirates in Glasgow through the night plus running a Blab so please join us. Checkout our website.
Response from my, obviously too clued up English mate. He voting Leave… Cos he voted for Free Market, not burocracy… but also thinks it will trigger second Indy Ref.
Edit… just had a bizarre exchange… very cagey… not just from my mate, but me too. ?
I am digusted witht he number of dishonest cowards here and elsewhere in the old “Yes” groups who are ignoring the reality of PROJECT FEAR 2 that is the Remain campaign from start to finish. The same tactics they abhored during the indy referendum are embraced, promoted and have careful blind eyes turned to. The criticism silenced. I’ve been greatly dismayed by the SNP in this too, who are happy to use any dead body to help them get another step up the ladder.
Watching Yessers try to claim that the UK (of which Scotland is still tied to, at least for now…) is UNIQUELY STUPID and thats why we need someone else to tell us what to do any how to rule ourselves is the deepest and most tragic of ironies after campaigning against such thinking that a nation should rule itself and that the people within it are those who should decide its future. All the huge red flags happily discussed in the past here and elsewhere are carefully buried. I’d hoped this site at least wouldn’t quite move lockstep to the SNP beat so mindlessly but I suppose desperation for another indy ref means selling your soul is a small price to pay for such people.
This whole referendum has done to the SNP and Yes crowd what the indy ref did to Labour in my eyes. Disgusting.
@Robert J. Sutherland
“Your posting reminded me of another BT argument of recent unfond memory, that “separation” was going to make foreigners of all the English people living here.”
It can remind you of anything you wish. Doesn’t make it like that situation at all. Chalk and cheese.
Brian McHugh @ 23:32 said:
So he’s one of those English separatists who want to jettison the rebellious northern unwashed at the same time as the continental unwashed, is he?
(And he’s still your mate?)
This really is straightforward – the best people to decide whether Scotland should be in the EU is the people of Scotland. Therefore it is best to vote in any referendum or election for the outcome that returns full sovereignty to the Scottish people.
In this case vote Remain, there is nothing dishonest or cynical about that.
Regarding second postal votes being received. If you haven’t already thrown it out I’d confirm that your first one wasn’t amongst those cancelled due to the alleged bias in the instructions showing a pen hovering over the box for Remain.
Never been an ardent pro EU supporter but I will vote Remain
I said this over on the Gruniard and it is the gist of my thinking on this topic.
If it is an Out vote which bit of the country am I personally getting back?
It is just that I have sneaking suspicion I will have not a square inch more of it after an Out vote. Indeed, once Boris and co have ripped up working time directives and the like I will be peddling like feck to keep the little I have.
If the result also pans out for a successful Indyref 2 then that is a happy bonus.
@ Dr Jim says at 10:27 pm …. ”Petra …. You just have to ignore old Jim Sillars he’s the old fashioned type and gone grumpy because nobody will listen to him and he can’t forgive the EU for not siding with Scotland during our Ref, which nobody serious expected them to, they did what they were asked to do by Cameron who to them represented the member state. The SNPs moved on since Jim and he disnae like it.”
I wish I could ignore him Jim but when someone who previously had such a high profile in the SNP, professes to be a current member but runs Nicola Sturgeon down to the ground, in turn influencing others, I find it difficult to do so. You’d think he’d see that we have enough enemies out there without him joining them. You’d think that he’d also wonder why no-one’s bothered their backside with him for years now but are all falling over themselves to trundle him out. He no doubt thinks it’s to hear his words of (anti-SNP) wisdom. I just see it as USING him for their own devious ends. He also seems to be pretty blinkered, shortsighted, when it comes to ‘then’ and ‘now’. Many of the claims pre-Indyref about, say, the EU and Nato proved to be unfounded. Times have also changed and as you say the SNP has moved on. This situation is totally unique, could lead to a multitude of different scenarios, and yet he seems to be ‘stuck’ in his ‘old’ way of thinking.
…………………………………………………
A number of readers responses to Jim Sillar’s recent article in The National:
‘Letters II: Naive in the extreme to think the Tories will protect workers’ rights – Readers of The National.’
FOR someone who is so cock-sure in his dismissal of Patrick Harvie, Jim Sillars ought to have been certain of his facts (Letters, June 18). He is not, but we have come to expect this economical relationship with the truth from the Leave campaign.
First, Sillars conveniently ignores a whole suite of rights which originate entirely from working with our partners in Europe and had no equivalent in UK law before joining. These include maximum limits on working hours (Working Time Directive); protection for part-time workers, fixed-term workers and agency workers (EU Agency Workers Directive); protection for employees when their business is transferred to another employer, which is a radical break from English common law; and protection against discrimination on the grounds of age, religious belief or sexual orientation.
The UK has over the decades successfully blocked action which would give employees statutory rights in the governing of their workplace. UK governments of all colours have expressed displeasure about the WTD and AWD: if Sillars genuinely thinks that these rights would not be under threat post-Brexit he is making a serious misjudgement.
Second, Sillars’s account of the rights he does mention is incomplete. The Holiday Pay Act of 1938 only covered workers who had minimum wages set by a wage regulating authority – no general right to paid holiday existed until the Working Time Directive. Equal-pay legislation has been substantially improved by EU law: to cover cases where men and women perform work of equal value, and increasing back-pay claims from two years to six. And Ireland voluntarily introduced austerity in 2008 (after their banks collapsed, an entirely home-grown catastrophe), long before they asked the EU to step in with a bailout. Spain’s problems were also homegrown.
The real threat to the right to strike comes from the Tory anti-trade union laws. Who is trying to criminalise picketing? The Tories. Who is trying to permit the hiring of strike-breaking labour? The Tories.
Missing from all this are the real progressive reasons for voting Remain on Thursday: to co-operate with our European partners on challenges we cannot solve alone. We’ve abolished roaming charges by the rip-off mobile phone operators. We’re cracking down on tax avoidance by multinationals like Starbucks and their sweetheart tax deals with national governments. We’ve set world-leading climate-change targets. We capped bankers’ bonuses. As internationalists and progressives, remaining in the EU is critical for progress.
Daniel Wylie, Dunkeld
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JIM Sillars’ reply (Tory party will tear itself apart if there is a Brexit, Saturday June 18) to Patrick Harvie’s excellent column last Friday, fails on several accounts, the most telling being the idea that the middle classes will protect us from future Tory attacks on workers’ rights.
This is Jim’s bulwark against the few remaining workplace rights that our forbearers fought so hard to secure. Forget about the protection given by EU employment legislation and trust that the most reactionary Conservative government in modern British history, headed up by Boris and his chums, will quake at the sight of the middle classes. Did this social group prevent the emasculation of the Unions after the Battle of Orgreave, Jim?
Jim also tells us that we will be safe from the Tories after Brexit because the party can be relied upon to go into meltdown. This will be a dream of nirvana to many but how realistic is it? To rely on it as a means of securing workers’ rights is nothing short of reckless.
Gordon Murray, Lanark
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I FULLY agree with Patrick Harvie in his assessment of Jim Sillars’ s views on the Brexit debate. When it comes to environmental issues, Jim has a long history of being disparaging about the need for environmental legislation. It is that need which is at the top of my agenda about the EU.
Everything from climate change to the Water Framework Directive to clean air and Natura 2000 legislation has been part of the raison d’etre for the EU. The natural world does not follow the desires of individual countries or individual polities, who must work together to get things done. The UK has a motivated populace when it comes to wildlife conservation, but that is not reflected in our lacklustre attempts to right the wrongs of previous generations when it comes to dealing with our natural resources. How slow are we to realise our duty to protect and enhance biodiversity compared to many of our continental brethren.
Even the Common Fisheries Policy, roundly condemned by many in the fishing community, is at last coming good as politicians take heed at long last of the need for conservation measures, including the creation of Marine Nature Reserves. There is still much to do to create a sustainable future, but pulling out of the EU does not advance the cause of protecting the natural resources of our planet.
Of course I am also much in agreement with the other arguments for retaining our membership of the EU, but environmental issues have been grossly underplayed in my view.
Bill McDermott, Drumnadrochit
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DEAR Jim Sillars,
OK Jim, we get it, you are an outy! But I think it is about time that somebody called your bluff.
Firstly lets put you straight on something. Aye, we have had paid holiday for a very long time but as a poorly paid bus driver the good old British government allowed me 20 days’ holiday a year. It was the EU that told them they could not count bank holidays as part of the annual leave and decided that we lowly serfs were due eight more days’ leave. In one fell swoop we had nearly two weeks’ extra holiday. The British Government fought against this tooth and nail.
So when you are arguing so fervently for Brexit, I believe that you should temper all your correspondence with the fact that you wish to take us out of the frying pan and into the fire. While I believe that the European Union is a flawed institution I also believe that the only chance we have of a fair and peaceful future is to stay in and try and fix it.
I cannot for one second comprehend the idea of handing the future of Scotland to the near-certifiable Boris. This is the man whose economic model is that if you give the rich heaps of jam us serfs will be happy with what they spill, that if you give the rich enough biscuits then there are certain to be crumbs aplenty to keeps us overjoyed. I am waiting with bated breath to hear Boris quiz as to the existence of food banks by saying “let them eat cake”.
I know that Mr Sillars sees the future of Scotland as an independent nation but can Mr Sillars please tell us what happens to the farming industry, whisky industry and the rest when it has to pay tariffs to trade with the EU, and does he imagine that England will be giving us a tariff-free existence as reward for the break-up of the UK?
Neil Morison, Dornie, Kyle of Lochalsh
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/letters-ii-naive-in-the-extreme-to-think-the-tories-will-protect-workers-rights.18970
Just got in from a lovely night outside with a fire and a beer. Beautiful full moon too to light up the sky. Too cold for midges though.
Happy solstice everyone. Only three more days till this interminable campaign is over. Let’s hope the results bring good fortune.
Andy B 11.35
I voted Yes because I think it best for Scotland.I’m voting Remain because I think it’s best for Scotland.I think Scotland can thrive as an independent country within the EU.I think Scotland will be worse off if it is out with the EU,particularly if governed from London by the Tories.
Hadn’t really looked at the figures for UK citizens living or working in the EU. I wonder just how many of them will have postal votes and what way they’ll cast them.
@robertknight says: 20 June, 2016 at 9:14 pm:
“As I indicated earlier, the Constitution is off-limits to Holyrood and the PO would be forced to stop any such Bill in its tracks well before it was even put to a vote – and it certainly woudn’t receive the Royal Assent required to become an Act of the Scottish Parliament.”
Only if you believe the Establishment lies, propaganda and misdirection. There is that little matter of the truth and the irrefutable terms, carved in stone, of the actual Treaty of Union and both of the former Kingdoms’ Parliaments Acts of Union.
Many wrong assumptions have been made from day one of the union but these have rarely ever been faced in a Scottish courtroom. Here are some irrefutable truths :-
(1)- The name of the Treaty is, “The Treaty of Union”, and there is not a single mention of the terms, “Country”, or, “Countries”, in the entire treaty. For the very simple legal reason that what was united was two, equally sovereign independent Kingdoms.
The legal proof of that is in the title first given to the entity that resulted from the Treaty – “The United KINGDOM of Great Britain”. Subsequently altered to, “The United KINGDOM of Great Britain & Ireland”, and again to, The United, KINGDOM of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.
(2) – Then we have the salient point that the Treaty of Union itself stipulates several relevant legal differences that were necessary in order to comply with the differing basic legal differences between the two former, equally sovereign, KINGDOMS. That Scottish Law, for legal reasons, had to remain independent of English law for the Westminster parliament was to use English Law, (That is the three country, KINGDOM of England law), and the two legal syatems were/are incompatible.
The Kingdom of England, (and only the Kingdom of England), is a constitutional Monarchy. i.e. it has at its head a sovereign monarch. However, under Scottish Law the monarchy is not sovereign as, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, plainly states the people of Scotland are sovereign.
The English Sovereign cannot, under the law of Scotland, be head of an established church and it is basic to Scots law that Education is independent of that of the Kingdom of England. Then there is that little matter of The Pound Sterling that was agreed as BOTH kingdom’s currency and to the extent that the Scottish Banks have the legal right to print their own banknotes. (Note that Banknotes are legally, “Promissory Notes”, and thus are not legal tender.
Yet from day one of the Treaty coming into force, (1st May 1707), The Westminster Establishment has worked very hard to propagandise all these legal facts. Note that during the Scottish Referendum the Westminster Parliament commissioned two, (so called, experts in International Law), to produce a paper that was subsequently used as the basis for this quote by none other than the present, “Secretary of State for Scotland”, David Mundell.
“The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom”.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever contained in the text of the Treaty of Union, nor in either former parliaments’ Act of Union , to that effect. Not even a hint.
The facts are thus, that no matter what the Westminster Parliament may claim in regards to that parliament’s sovereignty , England, Wales & Northern Ireland remain as a, “Constitutional Monarchy and that has been the legal case since, “The Glorious Revolution”.
This when the Parliament of The Kingdom Of England, (all three countries), deposed the monarchy they had at that time and imported King Billy & Queen Mary but with the proviso they delegated their sovereignty to the Parliament of the KINGDOM of England.
However, that original monarchy also independently wore the crown of the Kingdom of Scotland where he was not sovereign and, being still independent, the English Parliament had no authority to depose as monarch in Scotland.
Ergo, if the sovereign people of Scotland mandate their parliament of Scotland, (Which, BTW, was only prorogued, and thus was never legally formally wound up.)
Indeed when Winnie Ewing opened the first session of the new Holyrood Parliament she declared it as the old Scottish Parliament being reconvened.
So there is the real legal situation – Under independent Scottish law the people are legally sovereign and if they give their government a mandate there is nothing that Westminster can legally do about it.
No matter what You, Jim Sillers or the Westminster Establishment claim. Perhaps the time has come for this to be taken to the European and/or international Courts of Law.
There is no further proof needed than that the entity known as, “The United Kingdom”, is exactly what it says it is on the tin – A bipartite Kingdom that has never been a single unified country in its entire legal history.
“I didn’t watch Sillars, but if his argument runs along the line of Westminster being able to state that the current SNP administartion doesn’t have a mandate for Indy Ref. 2 then I would agree.”
And there you would be wrong – Unless, of course, you can disprove the actual legal facts I state above.
There you go – robertknight – prove me wrong and show the documentary evidence to back up your claims.
Robert, you couldn’t be more wrong.
Andy B @ 23:35,
You may not like the load of dung output by the Remain campaign (and who does?), but it’s mere organic humus compared to the toxic waste that is Vote Leave. Maybe you’re just another kipper troll and don’t care, but their campaign has degenerated from the same kind of wild exaggeration that you claim to dislike into something far, far worse – brazen outright lying and dangerous xenophobia. A disreputable miasma of untruth and scapegoating that has appealed to the very worst instincts of people feeling left behind and ready for the plucking. With all-too-predictable consequences. And you talk of being disgusted!
I don’t know where you were then, but the indyref had nothing like the slime of this Brexit campaign. Not even on the BT side.
If you are truly interested in getting some genuine insight instead of all the swivel-eyed propaganda, watch Prof. Michael Dougan’s very measured and informed talk:
http://www.yeswecan.scot/index.php/2016-06-16-14-26-31/watch-this-first
Andy B. 11. 35
‘Watching Yessers try to claim that the UK (of which Scotland is still tied to, at least for now…) is UNIQUELY STUPID and thats why we need someone else to tell us what to do any how to rule ourselves is the deepest and most tragic of ironies’
It’s just Karma,sweet irony and sweet revenge mixed with pragmatic damage limitation on Westminster’s governance of Scotland.
We’re not ignoring Project Fear,we’re laughing at BritNats being hoisted by their own petard.
Maybe some will wake up and realise the English Establishment decide what goes down.The voters are merely required to legitimize it.
Capella
seconded
this hop skip and jump for the yessers has not been without casualties, but as of friday.
we will be back to being one yes campaign.
cant really see why folks gettin’ animated about a tory party referendum, 55% of folk in scotland voted no and passed responsability to westminster, such as it doesnt really matter how yessers vote, we are too wee to influence this referendum.
that is the whole point about being independent. ill be glad when friday comes
SORRY FOR SHOUTING BUT I URGE YOU TO WATCH MACART’S LINK AT 6:47
You will learn more in this 30 minute video than you will ever learn listening to either side in the referendum. This exposes the utter lies being perpetrated by both sides.
It makes you wonder why Cameron, if he really wants to stay in Europe, is not getting this information out there instead of the BS scare stories.
After watching professor Dougan I’m left with the nagging question, “who will benefit from Brexit?” It certainly isn’t anyone I can identify. I can only conclude that the people running this country really are as stupid as they look and behave or this whole thing is being engineered to benefit a very elite, very few.
Big Jock
It is guy tight it seems. I believe that people who have waited for their entire lives to assert their Britishness or Englishness or their own sense of identity in England (and Wales) finally have an outlet at the ballot box.
To assert that they are not as others, not European and they have a distinctive voice. They can exorcise their country of the EU who they wrongly believe are the root cause of all their problems.
It does not surprise me that people want to vote leave down south after the constant diet of xenophobia and propaganda coupled with normal romantic notions of identity.
What does amaze me is the absolute drivel I read and hear about Nicola Sturgeon subliminally wanting voters in Scotland to vote leave which is so dumb. Maybe they’ll catch a few folk out; maybe some SNP will vote leave based on this tripe and maybe it pushes a few anti-SNP voters to back remain.
The muddying of waters on this by journalists and BBC presenters who are far too intelligent to not understand the most basic concept just serves to illustrate how fucking terrified UKOK establishment is of the brexit scenario’s implications for Scotland.
The two players in this we tend to forget are Northern Ireland and Wales. It could indeed be more complex than simply Scotland alone being pulled out of the EU against her will or Scotland alone keeping England in.
We’ll get a clear picture on Thursday night and Friday morning and then push on from there.
Something tells me there is a little more drama to come in the last 48 hours of campaigning.
One thing I would like to point out to all indy-minded folk out there. We didn’t quite achieve the result we all wanted (whatever flavour of independence voter you happen to be) in May and that was because we had 2 conflicting strategies.
For this EU ref there is but one strategy and that is to vote Remain up here and see what happens in England (hopefully Brexit). If we had all decided 6 months ago to vote leave and plan to help destabilise the UK and somehow escape that way- fine. That would have been a strategy. If we had all decided to lay down 1.5 million spoiled ballot papers as a democratic protest that would have been fine too.
But we didn’t- our strength is in numbers and unity and the strategy we have fixed upon is to vote remain. This also aligns us with large numbers of no voters and no-voting business leaders.
Next time round (indyref 2) it may feel a little less strange for these former no-voters to be on the same side as their fellow Remain voters. We have common ground.
Well, with the leave vote picking up again in England, I decided to buy a couple of bits of furniture for my replacement conservatory despite it not yet having windows, floor or roof yet.
Why is this relevant?
An out vote will cause the pound to drop and they are coming from Germany.
A little promoted EU benefit for highlanders is that it usually cheaper to buy bulky items from another EU country than from the UK where swingeing delivery surcharges are imposed (if they’ll deliver here at all).
Jim Sillars keeps harping on that an Indyref2 isn’t mentioned in the SNP’s 2016 manifesto. Go to ‘Download our Manifesto 2016’ and check out page 23.
And the EU wouldn’t want us! Aye right!
Check out the 2nd section (page 16) ‘Scotland’s Oil and Gas Resources’:
”Scotland (with 1% of the EU population) remains the largest oil producer in the EU, and the second largest gas producer, with oil production increasing.
http://www.snp.org/manifesto
Another good one from WGD:
‘A campaign reported by journaloids’
…… ”Right now as I type this, leave supporter Michael Forsyth, Thatcher’s former bagman in Scotland who presided over the annihilation of his party but who still gets to sit in the House of Lords influencing our laws, is pontificating on an EU referendum debate on BBC Scotland about how important it is for a country to be governed by people that it votes for and the injustice of laws being made by politicians who are unaccountable. That’s right, a man who was utterly rejected by voters and whom we can’t get rid of thinks it’s wrong that other people influence laws without being directly accountable to the voters. It’s fine as long as it’s Tories like him though. Self-awareness was never one of Mikey’s strong suits. Thankfully an audience member has asked him whether the phrase pot, kettle, and black means anything to him. It takes a punter to ask the questions that the media won’t ask……”
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/a-campaign-reported-by-journaloids/
@ Almannysbunnet says at 12:26 am ….SORRY FOR SHOUTING BUT I URGE YOU TO WATCH MACART’S LINK AT 6:47
You will learn more in this 30 minute video than you will ever learn listening to either side in the referendum. This exposes the utter lies being perpetrated by both sides.
It makes you wonder why Cameron, if he really wants to stay in Europe, is not getting this information out there instead of the BS scare stories.
After watching professor Dougan I’m left with the nagging question, “who will benefit from Brexit?” It certainly isn’t anyone I can identify. I can only conclude that the people running this country really are as stupid as they look and behave or this whole thing is being engineered to benefit a very elite, very few.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
I’LL CHECK IT OUT TOMORROW, AB, AS I HAVE TO GET OFF TO MY BED NOW.
One vote, two statistics.
UK-wide EU ref vote:
(Remain vs Leave)
45% vs 55%
46% vs 54%
47% vs 53%
48% vs 52%
49% vs 51%
50% vs 50%
51% vs 49%
52% vs 48%
53% vs 47%
54% vs 46%
55% vs 45%
Scotland-wide EU ref result:
(Remain vs Leave)
55% vs 45%
56% vs 44%
57% vs 43%
58% vs 42%
59% vs 41%
60% vs 40%
61% vs 39%
62% vs 38%
63% vs 37%
64% vs 36%
65% vs 35%
Whaddya’s think? Choose a pair, any pair.
Just posting this kink again, to Prof Michael Dougan, EU expert, talk. Worth a watch, a few snippets of info, background and such things.
http://www.yeswecan.scot/index.php/2016-06-16-14-26-31/watch-this-first
Copy it, pass it on, only two days to go.
@Petra
Sillars’ argument about a mandate was countered by Joanna who stated that 46% of those who voted cast their vote for the SNP.
Problem with that argument is that 54%, the majority, didn’t, so you still have no mandate.
If the 46% had been 51%, then you’d have it. As it is, and I take no pleasure stating it, Sillars is correct.
He is wrong however in claiming we’d have to wait until 2021 to correct the present situation, as the Scottish Govt. could resign and force an early election in order to obtain the mandate necessary to force Westminster’s hand.
With a majority Govt. elected on the promise of Indy Ref. 2 you’d have your mandate. Until then…
I disagree.. I think the SNP does have a mandate..
In 2011, the SNP had 45.4% (902,915) of the constituency vote in 2011, and in 2016 they got 46.5% (1,059,897)
The 2011 vote was based on the old electoral register, the 2016 was based on a new one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/holyrood-election-scotlands-electorate-shrinks-for-first-time-in-six-years-a6893671.html
“Holyrood election: Scotland’s electorate shrinks for first time in six years”
“…(“Stay and reform it from within!” is every bit as spectacularly idiotic an argument in this referendum as it was in the last one, for mostly the same reasons.)…”
Come on Stu, you can do better than that – analysis always stronger than dismissal.
See George Kerevan’s article in The National Monday 21 June 2016. And Derek Bateman’s recent blog : “This…”
UK different from EU – that’s the whole premise of Vote Remain for indy supporters, whichever side of the border you’re registered to vote in.
The UK state is inherently unreformable – we have to leave it, but the EU is structurally different. Sure, it’s been hijacked by the bankers/right but we have to fight to wrest control of the EU – just like everything else!
Dear Rev Stu,
For what its worth, I’m voting Remain because I believe in the European Union and that over time, good rather than bad things have come from that union. Especially the lovely folk.
I am voting Remain because I believe that is good for the people of Scotland. It might even bring us closer to independence.
I really don’t give a flying duck what the likes of Cameron, Borris or Farage, from either campaign have to say. Not one of them has my trust or respect.
Sadly though,whatever happens with this vote, I think England will be torn apart. This is their genie that won’t be returning to it’s tarnished lamp. I think they’ve let loose an evil genie.
It’s not so straight forward for you though is it? Vote with your heart.
If we vote leave, the Tories will feast like seagulls on a midden for the next four years, TTIP, fracking, selling off NHS, dismantling of workers rights – remember trade unions no longer have the power they did in the 70s – and starting very soon with legislation permitting companies to steal chunks of workers’ pensions.
Lots more money for the rich and powerful and zero hours contracts with supervised toilet breaks for the rest of us.
I also worry what would Westminster could do to the Scottish Parliament if we vote leave.? Can I say that I voted against membership in the 70s.
Not so much regarding the In/Out of the referendum campaign, but for anyone undecided you really must consider the damage that WILL be done should Brexit win.
The wrath of Boris if they win will make Cameron’s EVEL seem tame.
The real eye opener to me was to spend time working in Europe. Just the quality of life makes my home country look like a third world and none of the cradle to grave slave labour. Truly inclusive, properly funded social democracy is the norm everywhere amongst the main EU countries except in Britain that is. Hell, even Eire’s system makes ours look stingy.
The share of the vote the SNP got for Holyrood is larger than the Westminster government got. If the vote share was at all relevant the we wouldn’t be nearing the end of the current referendum.
The only place where a “mandate” might even enter into the equation would be if the same temporary transfer of power to hold a “binding” referendum went to a vote at Westminster and the HoL tried to delay or prevent it.
Holyrood does not need permission to hold an “advisory” referendum. It simply has to pass a bill in order to do so. That requires the agreement of enough MSPs to secure a majority for that vote.
The Scottish Independence movement is stuck between a rock and a hard place!
The elderly voters are more vulnerable to Westminster Scaremongering and the constant stream of propaganda from all quarters of the UK Media.
They were the ones who voted No en masse as they were brought up to believe that these reporters are bound by some moral code.
The thought of them having no pension and no NHS, all be it complete fantasy, is enough for them baton down the hatches.
I don’t wish it upon them, but age does take its toll and a very large proportion of these elderly No voters, who have no access or interest in the truths behind Social Media, will have passed on by the year 2021.
We can also see that they young 16 year olds generally don’t use or trust UK Media, and research their own answers on the internet. They are in great numbers forever growing will take control of their own destiny and vote for independence when the right opportunity arrives.
I take great comfort in the above comments, and I can wait patiently for this time to elapse and secure our goal, but the issue in 2021 is what will be the significant material change at that time that would promote another referendum?
Being forced out of Europe by the English is indeed a strong justification, but that will be a soft echo in our history come 2021.
IMHO Independence is still a couple of percentage points behind and we cannot afford Indy Ref 2 until we have blue water between us and the Britnats.
Losing a second referendum will kill off any Independence
hopes within my lifetime, and I believe for the next 30-40 years.
Come the year 2050, there will be no Scottish Oil or manufacturing industry and our peoples will become addicted to meagre welfare payments from Westminster.
Our nation will become the UK’s scrapheap and scapegoat.
The EU ref has become an English indyref as ugly as it is unnecessary
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2016/06/project-fear-squared.html
And it has its casualties :”’-(
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-hinge.html
Boris and Macart thanks for the links – excellent .
Mr Peffers , thanks , as always for historical information and I hope that your home improvements are coming on apace!
Effigy , you have depressed me utterly – I haven’t got time on my side and I want my country free before I pop my clogs.
Lastly , well done Wee Wales – quite amazing.
It’s simple – whoever you are, wherever you are, vote for what would give a chance to bring about what’s best for Scotland ie an independent Scotland inside the eu. Any change to that particular arrangement can then be decided in future by the people of Scotland based on ITS priorities and not sabotaged by the liars and thieves of Westminster.
Effijy 7.30
Why do you think losing a second referendum will kill off hopes of independence for 50 years? For 30 years as an SNP voter we got thumped time after time.I didn’t lose hope of independence.
Al Dossary,
I couldn’t agree more. Most people in the UK have no idea how low the standard of living here is compared to other western european countries.
When I moved home I was surprised to see so many jobs advertised as ‘above minimum wage’, as though that was something to be proud of! Usually it meant a few pence above. The minimum wage here seems to be a benchmark wage rather than a minimum.
I looked it up, appalling. I looked up where I had been, not a lot better but I had never seen or heard of anyone being paid so little there. Additionally employers also paid commuting costs/fares.
It is so easy for an island government to con people. Here very few people watch TV from neighbouring countries and although they holiday in other countries have no idea of wages, hours and working conditions in those countries.
Successive UK governments have used the EU as a scapegoat for any failures and credited successes to themselves.
ie. Tony ‘I introduced the minimum wage’ Blair. Who introduced it because he came into power weeks before the deadline which had been signed up to years before but not implemented.
Thatcher, when interest rates were 15% or more causing huge problems for mortgage holders said it was the same the Europe -wide. Complete nonsense nobody else was paying that much.
‘UK has a mountain of old fridges because the EU said that they have to be recycled and we have no recycling plant’. Again this was an agreement entered into years earlier but no planning for it had been made until after the deadline for implementation was reached.
@Orri
See my earlier posts…
Constitution is ‘Reserved’ therefore the Tank Commander could insist that the PO prevent any discussion on a Bill, and as such it’d never become an Act. It could also be open to legal challenge by individuals in the courts and be subject to a boycott, as happened in Catalonia in 2014, where the “No” side stayed at home and turnout struggled to hit 40%.
As for % of the vote at the Scottish Election, it’s bums-on-seats at Holyrood that matter and the SNP don’t have enough to rule the roost.
Whatever way you cut it, the SNP/Scottish Govt. currently has no legal mechanism, no parliamentary majority and no democratic mandate with which to deliver Indy Ref. 2 and the sooner it admits such and comes up with a coherent strategy to address the situation the better.
Personally, I feel that the only way to resolve this, in the event of a Scotland Remain/UK Leave scenario, is to call a snap Scottish Election, on the heels of the Scottish Govt. resigning, and once again place matters in the hands of the electorate. Therein lies the road to achieving a mandate on a par with the 2014 referendum.
As it stands, the threat of an Indy Ref. 2 is useful for Project Fear to persuade those English undecideds to ‘Remain’ and prevent the separatists in the north from wrecking their country, but it’s an empty threat on the one hand and a promise that can’t be delivered on the other.
Given we already have EVEL a narrow Remain predicated on votes from Scotland might get some in England thinking along the lines of how much better it’d be if there was an indyref2 that we won. Ironically a Leave might bolster their belligerency as far as still ruling the UK goes and if the price of oil recovers Scotland might be seen as territory worth retaining.
It’s all a matter of how the internal fallout in the tory party lands. A Leave majority in England and perhaps Wales will bolster the standing of the Eurosceptic wing of its MPs regardless of the overall result.
In extremis there might be an internal revolution with a repeal of the fixed term parliament act so theycan stand again on a platform of withdrawal from the EU without a referendum.
Dakk 6.11
You must be some sort of sooth sayer Dakk!
Why is it that you you think the English might stick two fingers up to Project Fear – when, apparently, the Scots folded?
The EU costs nothing and brings benefits. The UK costs Scotland £10Billion+ a year, which could be better spent. i.e. Trident/illegal wars, ‘loss leading’ drink, tax evasion (including whisky companies), high tax on Oil sector (when prices are low with no alternative), loan repayments on money Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend.
Vote NO you get nothing.
Support for Independence is increasing. 49%. 1% a year.
Much is being said of the cost of EU membership.
0.7% of Gross National Income +
0.3% of VAT collected.
Doesn’t sound like an excessive cost does it?
@RobertKnight
“Problem with that argument is that 54%, the majority, didn’t, so you still have no mandate.
According to that logic, no government in the UK has ever had a mandate for anything at all, as no government in the UK has ever had a majority of the vote. In effect you are claiming that no government is ever legitimate.
Not buying this exit strategy where the UK loses free access to 500 million people and makes up the difference renegotiating trade with the EU and countries outside the EU.
What is to stop those non-EU trade deals happening now?
If you cannot supply produce to both a European market and non European market at the same time, then your problem isnt with any trade arrangement, but your own productivity.
With apologies to all the genious political strategists
If the FM says it’s possible to have a referendum I’m kinda inclined to take her word for that over anybody else’s and I’ll tell you why
If the FM were not telling the truth about this she would know perfectly well at the next election the votes would desert her and she’d never have control of another referendum so let down would her supporters be
We all make guesses and estimates of what could or could’nt happen but when we do this we must allow for the fact that we don’t know everything and in truth most of the time we don’t know anything because we’re not privy to all the information
So for the folk who enjoy calling the FM a liar but trying nicely to twist it up to make it look like they know more about any given situation just join the Jim Sillars grumpy group of has beens because that’s been working out well for him
The day the FM lies to me and it can be proved she did is the day I’ll vote Tory
I don’t think I’ll be rushing out to buy that blue tie anytime soon
Rev, like you and most Wingers, I’m an old leftie who’s been struggling with this decision. In the end, I’ve turned to Varoufakis for his opinion. He left the Greek govt due to austerity being accepted so must know his onions. Here’s what he says……
“[Yanis Varoufakis] Yes, your concerns about loss of sovereignty are justified, but (and this is very important), you cannot regain your sovereignty by exiting the EU. The single market to which you need to belong for the economic success of your nation requires pooled sovereignty, but done in such a way that it works effectively for all nations who are a part of it giving transparency, stability and with proper democratic processes.”
Having said that, you have the over-riding principle of Indy to consider. Unless the SNP ever declares UDI (never, I suspect) it follows that, whether we think we can win it or not, the VERY FIRST STEP to Scottish independence is Indyref2. And the gathering momentum will force Nicola to ‘bring it on’ if Scotland is dragged out ‘against her will’. Now it’s 100% certain that geo-Scots will vote to Remain, therefore the inescapable conclusion is that our England-based brothers should vote Leave.
To salve your conscience, wash your feet in antiseptic sheepdip (as some French friend of mine did way back when the Presidential choice was Sarkozy or Le Pen), hold your nose and think of Scotland. Seriously, you’ll be doing us all a favour, and will eventually be able do dine out on ‘I was living in Expend at the time and was one of those who voted Leave to force the Indyref that we won!.”
So, vote leave for the correct tactical reason brother.
Breeks at 8:58 am
You wrote: “Not buying this exit strategy where the UK loses free access to 500 million people and makes up the difference renegotiating trade with the EU and countries outside the EU.”
Firstly, on a point of accuracy, there is currently no “free access to 500 million people”. It costs the UK a net £10 Billion to have the “Free access”. I read that that is equivalent to around a 7% tariff of on our exports to the EU.
Secondly, in the event of a leave vote, wouldn’t the UK offer all the individual EU countries a tariff free deal moving forward? Under what circumstances would Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc, for instance, insist that we charge import taxes on their car exports to the UK? As has been discussed, the last thing the EU needs is another slow down in their economy.
So, we keep our tariff free arrangements with the EU and do new trade deals with other partners in the world.
It is quite a compelling argument don’t you think?
Its doom gloom and disaster captain kipper they are all voting the wrong way because i heard it from the express and mail and the idiot box said it too you must vote leave Scotland pigshagger is up to no good,no indy for you Scotland get back in your box the big boys are playing politics.
Of course he is up to no good again he is a tory and still head porker for now,and as for indyref2 i have said before what makes you think we need one.
If its a remain vote in England unless its a big majority then the brexiters will still be trying to take us out of the EU,if Scotland votes remain with a big majority we can then take our case to the EU as our membership will be under threat from another countries debate on their membership.
If its a brexit well its the same our membership is under threat but with the added bonus of a gap in the EU from the exiting UK membership one which we would be in our rights to take over if we vote remain.
No i am sure certain people are just waiting to pounce there is no way in hell Nicola will let Scotland be dragged back into the dark age UK tory land without a fight.
The EU debate is described in this video as “Dishonesty on an industrial scale.”
This has been viewed 110,000 times in one week. If this doesn’t open your eyes then nothing will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
Just like after the Scottish referendum you can’t say you weren’t warned.
Xaracen says:
“no government in the UK has ever had a majority of the vote”
Actually no, it used to happen. Came very close to 50% in 1950s elections.
1931 Baldwin’s National government got 55%, but that could be considered a special case.
The last indisputable ‘win’ would have been Salsbury’s Conservatives in 1900 who got 50.3%.
In living memory, WM governments do not get a majority of the votes. The UK must undoubtedly be the least democratic country in Europe. And that doesn’t even consider the HoLs!
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit
I wonder if anyone in the SNP actually reads widely or thinks critically? The left-wing case against the EU is powerful and coherent – unlike Sturgeon’s dreadful and bovine Europhilla.
Also the SNP do not own my vote, nor anyone else’s – yet they seem to think they do, along with owning Scottish sovereignty.
The saddo Sun today, on the BBC news page.
Peddling a weak story about Andy Murray’s family.
Cut and pasted from where? The Radio Times!!! of all places.
Exactly the same shock horror story of Andy and hate mail. ‘Snarling’ and his accent.
Oh dear The media -merely sharing gossip.
“It is so easy for an island government to con people. Here very few people watch TV from neighbouring countries and although they holiday in other countries have no idea of wages, hours and working conditions in those countries.”
And when you think about it, cearc, there are very few British programmes which look at life in the rest of Europe at all , and for a very good reason: they usually do things much better there, starting with pensions. The only TV offering which looks at European issues with any intelligence is Eorpa, but that programmes is for backward peasants clinging stupidly to a dying language**.
A work colleague happened to be in Austria at the time of the “unlawful killing” of Jean Charles de Menezes by the LM police. Interviews were broadcast with eye-witnesses who clearly described he was shot multiple times in cold blood for no reason. None of this appeared on our screens, of course.
We really need independence, and quickly, from the irredeemably corrupt Westminster Gang.
Thursday may give us that opportunity but it’s going to be a very rough ride.
**irony alert.
@robertknight
It’s fucking bullshit to say that Holyrood can be banned from even discussing reserved matters never mind holding advisory referenda concerning them. The Tank Commander can fuck right off if she tries that bullshit. Especially after Westminster have just held a referendum on the EU whichever way the result goes.
The SNP stood on a mandate to listen to the people of Scotland as far as a second referendum goes. Other parties stood on various pro indy platforms. A narrow UK Remain result will certainly benefit in that many in the Leave side will be pushing for a rematch.
The majority of the unionist campaign was to prevent a pro-indy majority at Holyrood so as to stop a second referendum. In doing so they validated and endorsed the SNP/Green mandate to hold one.
sensibledave says:
“wouldn’t the UK offer all the individual EU countries a tariff free deal moving forward?”
Definitely not. Trade negotiations take place at an EU level.
Also, Norway has to pay the 85% per person of what the UK pays to the EU, I believe. And, accept free movement of Labour. They are, of course, a small oil rich country who can afford this arrangement.
I think the Leave people are being sold a pig in a poke concerning likely trade and deals with the EU after exit. Free trade will have a high price.
Will Unionists in Scotland vote for EU exit just to kill of Indy2,
if Remain in Scotland don`t win by at least over 11% margin I don`t think it will be enough for Nicola to use as an excuse for Indy2,
I wonder if our 500,000 English settlers/immigrants will once again scupper our chance for Independence.
Mealer @ 8.01
Totally agree. They don’t appreciate the fight we have had to get to this position. If I had said in 1970 that the SNP would win nearly all constituency seats I would run the risk of being sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
@Xaracen
The figure was to counter the 46% argument.
Please don’t confuse % votes with bums on seats and the ability for a majority administration to enact legislation in order to implement manifesto commitments.
The Scottish Govt. isn’t a majority administration and Indy Ref. 2 was not a manifesto commitment; therein lies your lack of a mandate.
Just because the FM says, (in fairness it is political pundits and the Remain camp who give more heat than light on this than the FM ever has), doesn’t make it so. There was never a promise, therefore all the FM need do is ask the PM to hold an Indy Ref. 2, and, as she doesn’t have the power to deliver, she can point the finger of blame firmly at the PM when the response is “no mandate equals no referendum – forget it”.
At that point the FM could play the Ace which is the option for the Scottish Govt. to resign and call a snap election.
With Indy Ref. 2 a manifesto pledge at that stage, any subsequent SNP majority administration could demand a repeat of the process for bringing about Indy Ref. 1, for having the necessary mandate in the bag Westminster couldn’t refuse…
Hello Indy Ref. 2
Scot Finlayson says:
“Will Unionists in Scotland vote for EU exit just to kill of Indy2,”
Some will, I’m sure. Yes, the difference in results between Scotland and England needs to be double figures.
This vote is not about Scotland, it’s about rampant English xenophobic nationalism and a Tory power struggle. I can see no benefits to Scotland for any Scot to vote leave.
@Orri
The Scottish Parliament can debate on any subject it wishes, but it cannot move legislation on matters ‘Reserved’, and the Tank Commander or Deputy Dug or the PO himself could stop any attempt to do so – like it or not.
Stop this stupid mandate rubbish, in case you haven’t noticed we are having a referendum brought by the conservatives with only 36.9% of the votes, I don’t here anyone saying the referendum is undemocratic! the Conservatives said they would in their manifesto, not that having anything in the manifesto counts for anything, just ask a Liberal, The SNP said material change, brexit is just such a change, , if the majority of MSPs vote for a referendum then then it happens. Whatever Jim Sellers, whatever in his “Defence of the Relm” paid role is now, he says can be written off as utter crap, as was his intervention that threatened no voters, Actually he has just insulted the greatest Leader in the history of the SNP , he a nonentity, not even yesterdays man, he wasn’t ever noted as a middle of the road politician, just an annoying arse! he should consider his legacy, how will future years look at him?
Westminster would be forced to pass an act of parliament calling the vote illegal, and then we have the situation where Westminster would try to claim the sovereignty over the Scottish people that Robert Peffers has spent years on here explaining how the Act of Union didn’t give them, that’s why politicians try to pretend Scotland was extinguished, no it bloody well was not!
This Union of the kingdoms of Britain is over.
Nearly spluttered my toast all over masel this morning.
Courier leader column says today that “Buffalo Bull” is a rising star in the Tory ranks and has been spoken of as a future, get this, Westminster leader. Aye right.
Alex Salmond yesterday in Courier sums it up for me.
An independent Scotland in Europe would control 98% of her finances.
A devolved Scotland with new powers would control about 30% of its finances
galamcennalath 9:37 am
sensibledave says:
You wrote “Norway has to pay the 85% per person of what the UK pays to the EU, I believe. And, accept free movement of Labour. They are, of course, a small oil rich country who can afford this arrangement.”
There is huge difference, in business terms, between the size of the market in Norway and in the UK. If we vote leave then all bets are off. The EU will have to decide on what basis they want to trade with the UK. The Norwegian and Swiss models are irrelevant. We start with a clean sheet.
We then write on that clean sheet that we want tariff free deals with the EU. That is our offer. I ask the question again, under what circumstances will Merkel, Hollande come to the conclusion that the UK charging say, 10% import tariff on Mercs, BMWs, Audis, Vws, Citroens, Peugots, Seats, Fiats, etc – would constitute a good deal for the EU economy?
As is often reported, the EU economy could be set back into recession if it insisted on tariffs with the UK.
It is possible, I suppose, that the EU Comissioners might be more interested in being seen to be being politically “pure” to their ideals – rather than actually wanting to do deals with trading partners that actually help the EU economy and hence its citizens. However, I rather suspect that the likes of the German car workers and the French farmers will take a far more pragmatic point of view if their livelihoods were at risk – and make their feelings known to their governments.
BTW, I am making this argument not because it is the reason to vote leave – but to demonstrate that the world will not collapse if we do. Our future trade arrangements with the EU, in my view, is not a reason to vote either way.
Joe Kinnear says:
“The left-wing case against the EU is powerful and coherent”
Perhaps, but those arguments are only relevant if you believe that a left of centre government is likely to take power in the UK. There hasn’t been one for decades and I’d be surprised to see one for many decades to come.
A UK outside the EU will follow an unbridled ultra right agenda. If you think TTIP within the EU is bad, just wait to see what PM BoJo proposes if he wins his Brexit.
sensibledave says:
“BTW, I am making this argument not because it is the reason to vote leave – but to demonstrate that the world will not collapse if we do. Our future trade arrangements with the EU, in my view, is not a reason to vote either way.”
I wish you had the same sensible view when discussing Scottish independence?
@Andrew
You have as much chance of seeing a Vanguard class boat sailing doon the watter never to return, just because the majority of MSPs voted to remove Trident, as you have of getting an Indy Ref. 2 using the same tactic. It’ll never happen!
You can keep going on about it until the cows come home, but the mechanism and precedent for the process of holding an Indy Ref. have been established in both Parliaments, and neither Parliament can change that process just because it suits.
Indy Ref. 2 will require exactly the same processes and set of circumstances as Indy Ref. 1.
To claim otherwise is pure “kidology”.
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit I wonder if anyone connected with the SNP actually reads widely or thinks critically?
The left-wing case against the EU is overwhelming, robust and intellectually coherent – something the increasingly dreadful Sturgeon is not.
I’d make this point. The SNP do not own my vote, nor my mind. The lack of any debate within the SNP is worrying to see. Not a single MP or MSP diverges from the simple-minded groupthink that the EU is “progressive” and the implication that if one disagrees that you are acting against the interests of Scotland or Scottish independence.
I for one strongly object to this unpleasant experience/undertone. Where is the sign of open debate and intelligent disagreement within SNP circles. If the ‘dear leader’ cannot and shouldn’t be questioned under any circumstances what feedback mechanism exist to correct mistaken thinking on the ‘dear leader’s’ part?
Just as the SNP do not own the votes of independence supporters, nor do they own Scottish independence or sovereignty – but act as if they do. It’s deeply problematic.
We have been treated to J K Rowling’s voting recommendations and sit wondering why we should pay any attention to her views.
However, surely the nation must be on tenterhooks waiting for the big one which will decide our future.
Even now Baroness Mone will be winding herself up to hit us with a sensational last minute announcement of her recommendations.
I can’t wait for the headlines ‘It was me wot won it’ says Michelle.
@Robert Knight
I’m glad the majority of Indy supporters have more knowledge and commitment, than you appear to have.
I think your mask is slipping.
No mandate, no indyref 2. Keep Trident. No majority.
This despite a LOT of evidence being presented to you.
I’m sounding the klaxon.
I wonder if anyone in the SNP actually reads widely or thinks critically? The left-wing case against the EU is powerful and coherent – unlike Sturgeon’s dreadful and bovine Europhilla.
Also the SNP do not own my vote, nor anyone else’s – yet they seem to think they do, along with owning Scottish sovereignty.”
What the feck’s a Europhilla, or is that thinking to critically?
Is it like Pollyphilla?
Do they still make pollyphilla anyway?
Probably not thanks to the fcuking EU regulations.
If the EU was even remotely like Scotland being dragged along by the UKOK freak show, its highly unlikely that Bomber Blair and Crash Gordon would have been able to invade Iraq etc etc.
@RobertKnight
“Indy Ref. 2 was not a manifesto commitment”
Not true, indy Ref. 2 was a qualified manifesto commitment, and if the relevant qualifications arise, that manifesto commitment only needs to be passed in parliament, and the SNP plus Greens can force that through with their combined majority, thus necessarily demonstrating that mandate.
When Leave talk of protecting ‘our national identity’ they mean Englishness – and white.
I made my mind up a long time ago to vote Remain.
I’ve had a lovely relaxing time during this EU Ref debate. It’s been wonderful not having to read or listen to a load of misinformation from both sides of the debate.
Meantime whilst fully occupied with Brexit and the deification of an MP who most people had previously never heard of, the MSM seem not to have spotted that the tory party’s largest donor has, in France, had 19 staff and the general manager arrested, around a million in cash seized and all accounts frozen for money laundering charges.
It’s owner, ‘Subaskaran Allirajah, is a member of the exclusive Leader’s Group for top donors and has dined privately with the prime minister or members of his cabinet twice in the past six months. He is also close to Boris Johnson after bankrolling his London mayoral campaign.’
Lots of magic cash sloshing around. Not just in France, ‘..group employs three cash couriers to drop rucksacks stuffed with hundreds of thousands of pounds twice a day at Post Offices scattered across London.’
Well where else would they be laundering it?
https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/the-french-connection?utm_term=.ds58RvmdL#.orkm7wzJp
So that joins the not to be reported stories, along with the tory election expense fraud, HSBC’s various irregularities etc.
Free press? Ha,ha, ha. Not in the UK.
robertknight says:
Robert nothing one parliament enacts makes another beholden, one parliament can’t tie another!
And removing trident, we could vote to remove it, and you are correct Westminster could ignore, but if the Scottish Parliament voted and organised a referendum, or anything else,what can Westminster do? troops on the streets? all they could do is Ignore, and where would we be, democratic uncharted territory.
Look I never said it would be easy? but this is politics in the throws of divorce, and divorce is never easy.
Grousey,
Englishness, white or very, very rich, surely?
The best bit about it all is that whatever the result the so-called united kingdom continues to disintegrate. Great fun to watch.
BTW, I am making this argument not because it is the reason to vote leave – but to demonstrate that the world will not collapse if we do. Our future trade arrangements with the EU, in my view, is not a reason to vote either way.”
More sensibledave UKOK bollox. What about the 2014 BetterTogether rage, vote NO or you’re out of Europe shyste sensible?
We’re all just supposed to blank just one more of Project Fear’s great frauds on Scotland 2014 are we? How many EU immigrants voted NO in Scotland based on Bliar MacBloater’s historic EU lies?
You probably know where you can shove your “we” collective sensible.
Joe Kinnear
what are you waffling on about boy? you make no sense, unless you’re name is Joke in here?
Soon as we leave we dump a massive amount of good EU law and hand that power over to Westminster.
There’s no practical, time efficient and democratic way we can reinstate it all under UK rule, which means the UK government will pass what the hell it likes in large neat bundles that suits the colonial mentality without consultation or worrying about the consequences.
We will have handed a massive amount of power back to Westminster.
@Valerie
I’m sure that the small boy in the tale of the Emperor’s New Clothes got similar pelters, but at the end of the day…
@Xaracen
“Qualified” indeed, but unlike last time we’re still short of a majority, and TBH I doubt the Greens would risk their political necks on siding with the SNP unless the polls were consistently showing 60%+ for “Yes”. (I didn’t read their manifesto, but I have a hunch there wasn’t any mention of Indy Ref. 2).
Andrew McLean 10:19 am
You wrote “I wish you had the same sensible view when discussing Scottish independence?”
I have never had a view on Scottish Independence – I have always wanted whatever the majority of Scots want. I think I used the word “ambivalent” repeatedly. However, that didn’t fit with the “Brit Nat, oppress the jocks, steal their oil” narrative you wanted me to represent so you ignored it.
Joe Kinnear says:
21 June, 2016 at 9:28 am
unlike Sturgeon’s dreadful and bovine Europhilla.
Ruby replies
Bovine Europhilla?
🙂
Is it as dreadful as
‘Porcine Zoophilia’ ?
@Joe K
Fundilymundilyphilia?
@Andrew
You’re right, nothing is easy, but without the legislative authority all you’re left with is the Catalan 2014 situation with a partial boycott, low turnout and result ignored.
All the legislation…. Electoral Commission, Local Authorities, Police Scotland etc… to enable and facilitate Indy Ref. 2 must be done with Westminster’s consent and within an agreed legislative framework.
To circumvent such is to effectively declare UDI, and then you’d not have to bother having the referendum, would you?
joe kinear:”The left-wing case against the EU is overwhelming, robust and intellectually coherent ”
There is a coherent left wing case to be made for leaving the EU *in the context of the election of a left wing government with a strong mandate for fundamental left wing change allied to a strong movemnet outside of parliament*
In the absence of any such coherent left wing program of government the concept of “Lexit” is ridiculous, self indulgent and childish. There is no left goverbement in waiting with a program of fundamental change. The brexit governemnet in waiting is even further to the right than the current government.
“Lexit” without the neccessary context is a poseur’s fantasy that will only end up strengthening the right. Bad enough to propose this in England. To propose it in Scotland, with the obvious ramification of undermining the campaign for independence, is self defeating.
I note that Grousey and Heedy haven’t changed much since I have been away.
Grousey wrote “When Leave talk of protecting ‘our national identity’ they mean Englishness – and white.”
…. Still throwing out the sweeping generalisations that characterise a whole nation as closet racists I see Grousey.
Heedy 10.42 … Still writing impenetrable waffle that completely misses the point of the actual discussion.
Heedy 10.42 … Still writing impenetrable waffle that completely misses the point of the actual discussion.
Point is sensible, UKOK toryboys like you want to burn out the actuality of 2014 Scotland from Scots memory. You’re royal “we” and stuff like “I have never had a view on Scottish Independence – I have always wanted whatever the majority of Scots want” is just the usual high tory mince.
Fair enough youre just another UKOK toryboy troll with this phoney indifference to Scotland’s own ref result does suit whatever youre up to now to but thing is sensible…Scotland 2014 was BBC led Project Feared to hell and back with the most ferocious, colossal, historic lies that like of BBC and Bliar MacBloater could cook up.
eg, vote NO or youre out of the EU,
Vote NO for The Vow, we will “give” devo-max and federal UK, if stay with England and the glory of the UK, in the EU and all of it total fantasy.
So once again sensible, you know where you can shove your collective “we.”
Robert knight
For Westminster to oppose a second referendum would be extremely damaging to its image as the Mother of democracy, The SNP have a mandate, it was in the Manifesto, Brexit would mean we start the campaign for Indy ref 2, when that would be, well cleverer brains than mine will decide that.
S Dave,
Come on stop being obtuse, you know fine well what Grousey means!
@ Joe Kinnear
I am also irritated (not just during the present referendum campaign) when my vote is taken for granted by anyone, so I read your linked article.
It contains the following paragraph:
Is that your preferred outcome?
…. Still throwing out the sweeping generalisations that characterise a whole nation as closet racists I see Grousey.
Its nice that we have a UKOK tory twit like sensible with us today, just to compare and contrast britnat rule britannia buffoonery with this from the FT=
The killing of the opposition Labour party MP, a passionate believer in British membership of the EU, was an act of deranged evil that cannot be blamed on the Leave campaign. But it took place against the backdrop of an increasingly bitter referendum process, in which words such as ("Tractor" - Ed), liar and racist are being chucked around all too frequently.
Referendums are not like elections, whose results can easily be reversed a few years later. They feel like historic turning points. That makes people desperate and sometimes angry. I know because, as someone who strongly wants Britain to remain inside the EU, I have felt my own emotional temperature rise during the campaign. I have cursed at the television, fired off intemperate tweets at Leave campaigners, written furious emails to friends and enemies on the other side of the debate — and then usually had the wisdom not to press send.
In my calmer moments, I know that these politically charged rows serve no purpose other than to alienate friends. More important, if I am honest with myself, there are actually parts of the Leave case that I agree with.
I cannot dispute that the EU is a dysfunctional organisation. Nobody looking at the euro crisis — with its bitter divisions, deep recessions and endless emergency summits — could regard it as a triumph of public policymaking. The migrant crisis has once again exposed deep rifts within the union; and constitutional structures that make it all but impossible to frame effective policies quickly. None of this makes me optimistic about the EU’s ability to respond nimbly to future crises.
I also think that the questions of immigration and sovereignty stressed by the Leave campaign are legitimate issues. Some of the Leavers’ rhetoric has strayed into racism and dishonesty. But it is not inherently unreasonable for voters to want to control the numbers of immigrants that Britain receives from the rest of the EU.
So I will not be surprised if Britain votes to leave. And I do not think that all Leave voters must be cretins or racists, which sometimes seems to be the unstated assumption of a few Remain campaigners.
Given all that, why am I still on the Remain side? My reasons are practical and emotional; political and economic.
On the practical side, I think a vote to leave the EU will open the door to years of economic and political chaos. The Leave campaign’s demand to “take back control” of immigration policy will mean that Britain has to opt out of free movement of people within the EU — and with it, the EU’s internal market. So we are likely to face tariffs on manufactured goods and non-tariff barriers to vital service industries such as finance.
I also can see no way that the EU and the UK will be able to conclude a new trade deal quickly. The negotiation process will be protracted and difficult, and that will create an increasingly acrimonious relationship between Britain and its neighbours.
That kind of division and anger within the community of European democracies is not just unnecessary; it is also dangerous. We are no longer living in the post-political paradise of the 1990s.
The Middle East is imploding, military tensions between Russia and the west are rising, the US is flirting with electing a race-baiting demagogue as its next president and an authoritarian China is intent on becoming the dominant power in Asia. In this kind of international environment, it would be madness for Britain to devote the next five years to arguing with our friends and neighbours in Europe.
The Leavers say that their campaign is all about saving British democracy, by restoring the sovereignty of parliament. But in the European context the EU is the friend of democracy, not its enemy. The countries that joined the EU after the fall of the Iron Curtain were leaving behind authoritarian systems and signing up to a charter of civil and political liberties laid out in the EU treaties.
The “Brussels bureaucrats” may infuriate some in Britain. But elsewhere in Europe they stand for the rule of law and equal rights for all citizens and nations. Those in Britain who doubt that should look at the forces in continental Europe clamouring for the destruction of the EU — they are the nationalists, the racists, the authoritarians, the far right and the far left. These are the people who would feel strengthened and emboldened by Britain leaving the EU. Cox’s killing reminds us that dark political forces, nourished by hatred and violence, can also flourish in the UK.
For all its flaws, the EU remains the best guarantee of co-operation between the people and nations of Europe. All those enervating EU summits serve a vital purpose. They force the leaders of Europe to work together as colleagues rather than screaming at each other from behind national ramparts.
A British vote to leave the union now would pour fuel on to the fires of nationalism that are smouldering just beneath the surface in the EU. It is in the interests of both the UK and Europe that Britain plays its part in keeping those fires at bay. I will vote for a Britain that remains at the EU table — and that can be a respected, engaged and wise voice in helping the whole of democratic Europe to negotiate the crises to come.
Tories to the right of us Ukippers to the further right of us
Dissenters everywhere, Disrupters once again telling us what we can and what we can’t do
And it would be hilarious if it wasn’t so unpleasant to read this utter tosh about what our elected representatives are telling us “The SNP are lying” Shriek! Shriek!
It was exactly the same last time with Trolls and Yoons and just general miserable Bastirts with only one goal in mind to upset and annoy folk
We’re even back to the too poor and too wee brigade sticking their nebs in and you know who you are and we know who you are
Blind panic is setting in again in Yoonworld at the thought of Scotland having another chance at self determination because they know next time we’ll win it and that’s from their own political masters
The Trolling is building up now but if Brexit happens the Yoons heads will explode and the Ukippers bellies will follow, how do they make their “Take back control” arguments next time, they’re gubbed
Even daft Kezia’s been instructed to take back what she said about Independence just a couple of weeks ago, when she said she’d have to reconsider her position in the event of Brexit, but last night on TV she says she has never been in doubt if the UK Leaves the EU Kezia wants to stay with the sinking ship at all costs, no snorkel, no breathing apparatus Nada because Kezia is first last and always a Labour party member which of course translated means, anything the SNP are for we’re against
The FM is right for sure when she says if we’re left at the mercy of Boris and Osborne and their ilk Scotland will be in serious trouble
We’ll get Independence that’s probably guaranteed but not until England has stripped us to the bone then they’ll offer no resistance whatsoever as they wave bye bye
So really it’s the Scottish Labour lot who have the most to lose here and if they had a brain cell they could at least share between them they’d come to realise that opposing the SNP on Independence is not in their interests as on a national level the Labour party are unelectable so they’re at the mercy of Boris and Osborne as well
Or are Scottish Labour just so putrid they’ll hope to continue a life of troughing on the list whether we’re Independent or not, because if that’s the case somebody just might change the voting system, Apres Indy
With others before me, I can say with no hesitation that Prof. Michael Dougan speaks with clarity and scientific certainty; a voice of reason and research; of evidence and experience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
But in the political frenzy of the EU Referendum, his assessment of ‘in versus out’ may be, sadly, like adding herbs to diarrhoea. What a mess the UK is in.
So vote Remain, and onward to Independence – and ‘keep right on till the end of the road’.
https://g.co/kgs/90daN4
@sensibledave says:
21 June, 2016 at 8:44 am
Dakk 6.11
‘You must be some sort of sooth sayer Dakk!
Why is it that you you think the English might stick two fingers up to Project Fear – when, apparently, the Scots folded?’
My granny was a spiritualist medium Dave,so you may be correct in your assertion 🙂
You have misinterpreted my post Dave.I am asserting that the English will fold in the face of Project Fear just as enough Scots did for the Establishment to prevail.
Not long now to find out if Granny has given me the ‘gift’!
I know she won’t let me down 🙂
@Ruby
Generally speaking me too… 🙂
Reading lots here and there about it and listening on the radio occasionally but not watching the tv at all.
Roll on Friday!
I’m missing Ruthie and Rennie for re-calibrating my Scottish compass the last few days.
If ‘leave’ wins, then powers currently devolved to Brussels come back to the UK.
Some of these are concerned with matters which have been subsequently devolved to Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.
In theory, there should be an automatic passing on by Westminster of the relevant returned powers.
Now, I am not going to be holding my breath for that to happen –
but can anybody provide a link to a description of the ‘increased’ powers which could be coming the way of Holyrood.
eg
It has been suggested that that Holyrood could simply vote to maintain the status quo – ie EU law – even after a ‘leave’ vote.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35601764
OT More, illegal?, low level buzzing of Kirrie and other Angus villages by fighters.
Defo something in the offing, probly right after EUref.
Libya?
And for those worried about Raving Ruth, she’ll be on the telly tonight!
No doubt talking about her love for Boris!
http://archive.is/x9KBh
Was the first day of summer yesterday? The trolls have been mobilized and are out in force on all indie sites today. Cut and paste anti Sturgeon, pro Brexit comments all over the place.
It’s like the invasion of the body snatchers! C’mon prof Dougan, you’ve got somebody worried. They can’t handle the truth.
Interesting that the BBC haven’t used any of his stuff even though they consulted him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
UKOK Courier this morn.
“Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson will declare independence from her UK party if Boris Johnson becomes its leader, The Courier can reveal.
David Cameron has already said he will not fight a third election as Tory leader but some at Westminster are predicting a coup in the aftermath of Thursday’s EU referendum, particularly if there is a Leave vote.”
http://archive.is/XbCRV
Usually rubbish from another bunch of toryboys
“Ms Davidson, who saw off Mr Fraser’s challenge five years ago and guided the Tories to second place in May’s Holyrood election,”
If guided the tories means arsing about on camera for tory BBC led press grovellers, then fair enough, Ruth did lead the scottish toryboys to triumphant 20% of Scottish vote.
You have to check the dates of toryboy press as this could be a toryboy press release from any time in Ruthie babes era and she’s been a a total ghost in the scottish toryboy EU campaign.
Wonder why they’ve kept their stuffed shirt leader hidden until lastminute.com?
I’m in exactly the same situation as Stuart. I like the ideals of the EU but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired. The recent digital VAT changes were the clearest example of ‘EU red tape’ there is, and it directly affected members of my family. Plus our own country’s policies are slowly drowning my generation in debt – so the status quo is not working for me.
Neither campaign has been at all convincing. I am seriously considering spoiling my ballot.
But I’m not convinced that a Brexit-inspired second referendum would return a Yes. So many people I know in Scotland were utterly exhausted by the referendum. Asking the same question again just two years later risks more people voting No just to get the politicians to shut up about a question that’s already been decided.
And a second No would really close the question for a very long time indeed.
Re EUref for ex pats down South.
Yes, a leave vote would help the indyref2 cause but… it just wouldn’t be right would it?
Why help condemn the poor people of England to a neoliberal nightmare?
Society is in a war with neoliberalism. A war which must be won to avoid the dismantling of 200 years of social progress.
I believe if that war is won, it will be by a general (hopefully non violent) revolt by the peoples of Europe against those governments (most now) which have been, admittedly by coercion, persuaded to join the neoliberal project.
The chance of a neoliberal overturn in a brexited UK, which is the European epicentre of neoliberalism, is virtually nil, IMO.
I note the “anyone that disagrees with an SNP policy position/the wisdom of the ‘dear leader’s’ utterances” is written off as a Unionist troll. It’s a pathetically inadequate attitude folks. Groupthink is never a good idea.
heedtracker
I wonder what Ruth will do with Boris tonight- there is, as always an outside chance she will attempt to mount him to have her photo taken
BBC radio Scotland are reporting Ruth’s new leading role, ‘her moment’ in their usual dispassionate impartial way. I paraphrase: ‘Ruth Davidson, leader of Ruth Davidson’s party will be centre stage with a great opportunity tonight to shine and lead as Ruth Davidson appears… Ruth Davidson’
They even had a nice wee post-amble:
‘Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP were successful in denigrating, attacking and smearing the good, honest opposition parties in order to gain dominion over Scotland’s naive, deluded population. Now Ruth Davidson will take the lead, will lead from the front and show leadership as she takes on Boris Johnson without attacking and disgracing herself like what Nicola Sturgeon has done.’
Again, I paraphrase somewhat but you get the picture.
“So many people I know in Scotland were utterly exhausted by the referendum.”
Its funny really. That’s pretty much the mantra from all yoonster culture in Scotland. Much of it belched out by yoonsters at the grand old democratic BBC Scotland creep show too.
eg these gimps and their UKOK group think
Muriel Gray
?@ArtyBagger
@JournoStephen @BrianSpanner1 What on earth are you talking about Daisley? It was joyous. Civic. Progressive. And such a uniting legacy.
@ Mike Cassidy – you tracked down Ruth! That’s an entertaining article from the Telegraph. Ruth is keeping quiet about being a Tory and will have to declare UDI if Boris becomes PM:
“Although they did not specify the source of her antipathy towards Mr Johnson, she used an outspoken newspaper opinion piece to claim he had the same “brazen chauvinistic style” as Alex Salmond.”
The same “brazen chauvinistic style” as Alex Salmond, opines Ruth.
Full marks for trying. You have to admit she is very trying.
” Group think is never a good idea” ? Really??
I used to earn a very good living educating teams from all facets of production and public service to obtain concensus to function as one unit. I had the same problem with them as epitomise yourself Joe ,being that in every group of people there are those whose sole aim is to destroy cohesion rather than create it.
I am voting remain of course.
@TJ
Yep! They are in full Animal Farm mode now.
“ScotNat BAD! – BritNat GOOD!
ScotNat BAD! – BritNat GOOD!
ScotNat BAD! – BritNat GOOD!”
@Andrew
Westminster can crow on the world stage that in the UK, Referendums are conducted on the basis the process established for Indy Ref. 1 and if the same criteria are met, then the same will happen again.
Westminster loves a precedent and, as the Sovereign Parliament, can state that in order for Indy Ref. 2 to take place the Scottish Govt. simply need reflect the mandate it had in order to bring about Indy Ref 1.
Whilst claiming to play by the rules agreed by all for Indy Ref. 1, Westminster will then be able to obstruct the SNP, which for Indy Ref. 1 campaigned on a clear commitment to conduct an Indy Ref. and was returned as a majority administration; therein lay the mandate!
As it stands now, the SNP campaigned on a qualified and carefully worded reference to circumstances which may result in a call to conduct Indy Ref. 2, very different to that for Indy Ref. 1, and failed to be returned as a majority administration; needing instead to rely upon the votes of other parties to enable legislation to be passed – votes which cannot be guaranteed; where now lies the mandate?
The sets of circumstances above are quite different – it doesn’t matter how many black stripes you paint on a white horse, it still doesn’t make it a Zebra!
If Holyrood/Scottish Govt./SNP want an Indy Ref. 2, whatever the cause, then Westminster will insist that there be a repeat of all which led to Indy Ref. 1.
Should Holyrood/Scottish Govt./SNP try to circumvent Westminster and the processes established for Indy Ref. 1, we’ll just end up with a Catalonia 2014 situation – a completely pointless exercise that changed nothing.
Furthermore, if we go on to lose Indy Ref. 2, we’ll be in a Quebec situation, which having been asked the question twice, appears not to have an appetite for being asked again, ever…
Dakk 11.29
… sorry Dakk, I misunderstood.
Whilst using anecdotal evidence, rather than proper polls is a dangerous game (although how much can we trust the pollsters anymore?), amongst the people I have discussed the referendum with, there appears to be a sizeable majority in favour of leave. However, I live in a market town in the south east of England, i.e. natural Tory country, so it isn’t therefore representative of how people maybe thinking just a few miles up the road in places like Aylesbury, High Wycombe, Reading and Oxford – let alone a large council estate in Manchester or Newcastle.
The “up yours” theme to politicians is the most common sentiment that I come across (in response to the WW3, end of Western Civilisation, 3 million jobs at risk meme).
Again as discussed previously, in the event of a leave vote, I think the EU will have to come up with something – or risk other countries following our lead and the whole pack of cards falling down.
Not much longer now. Then we will know where we stand – and then all the fall out will happen – from Scottish independence to borders in Ireland, trade deals, etc. Hey Ho.
Heedtracker: Still throwing out the sweeping generalisations that characterise a whole nation as closet racists I see Grousey.
Far from it. They’re not closet. Not in the least.
I do know they’re not including Scotland in their ‘world view’, or anybody who wears a turban or yashmak.
Do you think they’ve British protectorates in mind when demanding ‘British’ identity remains intact, or do they mean they want more power for British offshore banking centres?
Joke in Here
that the best you’ve got, ?
pathetic.
For Scotland the choice is simple. Remain, Indy then decide our own relationships with the EU and the wider world.
For England, not so simple. It’s a choice, since this is solely about the Tories, a choice between which brand of toxic Tory is the least damaging for England. Really sorry rev but can’t help you, all of them disgust me.
Re; Edmund@12.11
Regards VAT, you pay 5% VAT on your fuel bills in UKOK. Thatcher introduced VAT on fuel bills for all, at 15%, the same as you paid then for luxury items. Gordy took it down to 5%, he didn’t scrap it though. That affected my family, with being at home in a caring role, and with fuel costs still high, it still affects my family.
However, the indy ref in Scotland inspired and jolted us into taking much more notice of what was happening politically, everywhere in fact. It ‘affects’ all of our lives.
Watch this if you are swithering.
Prof Michael Dougan, EU expert, talk. Worth a watch, a few snippets of info, background and such things.
http://www.yeswecan.scot/index.php/2016-06-16-14-26-31/watch-this-first
Copy it, pass it on, only two days to go.
Grouse Beater 12:51 pm
You wrote “Far from it. They’re not closet. Not in the least”.
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that anyone that might vote leave, in England, is a racist?
Robert knight
you and I both know that the Scottish parliament was specifically designed (DH)not to allow majority government, so as to have a debated consensual parliament, what we are taking about is not what the parliament was designed to do, in any case the Greens can be argued to be pro Independence, and I quote one Green MSP, “I cant wait for the chance for Independence”
Fact, there were more votes for pro independence parties, the pro independence parties gained in their share of the vote from the last parliament, it mentions material circumstances in the manifesto, and manifestos are not compulsory they are intentions, vote for us and we promise to do such and such. And anyway if the parliament decides to hold a vote on wee green men from space, the fact it wasn’t in the manifesto means absolutely nothing!
circumstances change, new laws are made, whats not to understand?
Dugdale previously saying that she’d support Scottish Independence if we Brexit (changed her mind again) and now Buffalo Bill is saying they’ll break-away from the UK if Boris takes over. Ooo la la! Rouler le Vendredi.
………………………………….
Watched the video Almannysbunnet. Great stuff.
…………………………………..
@ robertknight says at 10:47 am …. ”I didn’t read their manifesto, but I have a hunch there wasn’t any mention of Indy Ref. 2.”
It’s in their 2016 Manifesto Robert. Page 23 / 24.
@ robertknight says at 2:25 am …. ”Petra ….Sillars’ argument about a mandate was countered by Joanna who stated that 46% of those who voted cast their vote for the SNP……”
Robert if you watched Reporting Scotland (on BBC iplayer around 48 minutes in) you’ll see that Joanna Cherry was in the process of further explaining why we can call for Indyref2 in the event of Brexit but was cut short by Glenn Campbell (interrupted on numerous occasions) around 20 seconds into talking. On the other hand he had allowed Sillars to ramble on for nearly a full minute on the subject during which he, Sillars, really castigated Nicola Sturgeon (what the BBC wanted of course).
As to Indyref2. If necessary we can go right over Westminster’s head and involve the United Nations invoking articles from the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR). As an example both state that “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
Additionally if we Brexit and the situation down south shows signs of going to the dogs (utter chaos), Boris et al start implementing some of their no doubt well thought through and discussed sinister plans for Scotland’s future, we are dragged into another War or whatever I’m sure the figure for Scottish Independence will rise. If it rises to say over 60%, shown consistently over a period of time in the polls, with 56 out of 59 SNP MPs sitting in Westminster, Nicola Sturgeon with the highest Electoral vote of any EU leader joined by Harvie I doubt Westminster could do anything about this at all.
………………………………………….
@ sensibledave says at 9:11 am …. ”Secondly, in the event of a leave vote, wouldn’t the UK offer all the individual EU countries a tariff free deal moving forward? Under what circumstances would Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc, for instance, insist that we charge import taxes on their car exports to the UK? As has been discussed, the last thing the EU needs is another slow down in their economy.”
You must be joking SD. If that was to happen can you imagine the reaction from the other 27 EU countries? Different rules for the UK again. No way. There’s also the issue now of a large number of the Swedish and French electorate pushing for a Sexit / Frexit Referendum. Affording the UK some ‘obscure’ trading arrangement would only encourage other countries to want out leading to the EU being dissolved altogether. The only thing left open to the UK is a deal along the Norwegian and Swiss lines that is the ability to trade in the single market, higher membership costs, less say at the (round) table and more than anything still having no control over immigration.
……………………………………………..
I watched the Reporting Scotland video again and noted that when Joanna Cherry was discussing the Norwegian situation … trade in the single market …. no control over immigration Michael Forsythe doing the usual Tory Con act interrupted her, as he did OFTEN, and said but there ARE countries in the EU that trade but still have control over their borders / immigration. Joanna said who? He said Turkey and Lichtenstein!!! Liechtenstein joined the Schengen Area in 2011. Turkey FGS! These are the type of people that the ‘Leavers’ are voting for. Open your eyes folks before it’s too late.
To my remarks at 12.51, coincidentally this from Guardian Editorial today:
“Those forces, for which Euroscepticism is a wholly inadequate word, range from crude racism and nativist dislike of immigrants, to humble patriotism and yearning for a maybe imaginary lost age. The referendum turns not so much on the national interest as on a national idea. Behind our present turmoil lurks a certain idea of Britain, or of England. We are trying to find our identity.”
[My emphasis]
sensibledave says:
21 June, 2016 at 1:09 pm
Grouse Beater 12:51 pm
You wrote “Far from it. They’re not closet. Not in the least”.
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that anyone that might vote leave, in England, is a racist?”
Farage and UKIP think they are sensible. See their nazi poster campaigning.
What Scots YESer’s think is irrelevant to England as you know sensible, despite the possibility that Scots Remain votes could keep England leavers like you and your English racist proto fascist UKIPsters in the EU.
And I’ll probably have my first heart attack, laughing at UKOK berks like you.
Chic Mcgregor, re low flying fighters, American B52 and B1 bombers have been deploying to bases in England for weeks, F22’s are being deployed to Lakenheath it’s a show of strength to Putin in case he sees weakness if a Brexit .
Lots of assets are also being deployed to Estonia just now…
You can check out military aviation movements on the dash website
Economic debates are always just that.
2014 was simple, are you Scottish or British?
2016 is just as simple, are you British or European?
The first one was easy, the second is more about the lesser of two evils. I will vote for the UK to remain, ironically, were Scotland an independent country, I would be tempted to vote leave. What happened to Greece was a conspiracy theorists dream come true and should serve as a warning about where sovereignty ultimately lies – in the hands of the banking world.
Choice snippets from….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Grand_Committee
the power to meet in Scotland
The Scottish Grand Committee’s function is to oversee UK Parliament Bills specific to Scotland. However, since the creation of the Scottish Parliament none has been presented, and consequently the Committee has met only occasionally since. It is not a defunct body, however, as a Scotland-only UK Parliament Bill is still theoretically possible. The Committee last met in November 2003.[1][2] For several years it met at the Old Royal High School in Edinburgh. The retention of the Scottish Grand Committee was agreed by the House of Commons on 21 October 1999.
Obviously the Scotland Act has implications to the UK as a whole but if it’s introduced as a Scotland-only Bill then it should have been overseen by the Scottish Grand Committee. I’m sure Holyrood would have found somewhere to accommodate their sessions.
Regardless of which the probability of over 50 private members bills all aimed at holding a second independence referendum has a high chance that one or more will come up through chance alone.
@ Joe Kinnear says at 12:20 pm …. ”I note the “anyone that disagrees with an SNP policy position/the wisdom of the ‘dear leader’s’ utterances” is written off as a Unionist troll. It’s a pathetically inadequate attitude folks. Groupthink is never a good idea.”
Joe you seem to have a ‘thing’, a bit of an obsession, about Nicola Sturgeon and we don’t all agree with her every utterance at all. What we do find is that she is more likely to tell the truth than any other leader in the UK, EU in fact, and her attention is focused solely on the well-being of the Scots; unlike others. I for one don’t agree with ‘open borders’ and hope to see that change one way or another in the near future especially as many EU countries are now indicating a preference to do so.
Just out of interest, if you don’t mind me asking, whose politics / policies do you prefer if you don’t like Nicolas? Who would you say is ‘your dear leader’? Maybe I’m not just asking out of sheer interest at all but trying to figure out, other than having a sense of your personal grievances, where you actually stand on key issues.
Spoiling fur a fight?
‘Am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that anyone that might vote leave, in England, is a racist?’
Defeated by a nuanced and intelligent assessment of the current situation:
‘To my remarks at 12.51, coincidentally this from Guardian Editorial today:’
“Those forces, for which Euroscepticism is a wholly inadequate word, range from crude racism and nativist dislike of immigrants, to humble patriotism and yearning for a maybe imaginary lost age. The referendum turns not so much on the national interest as on a national idea. Behind our present turmoil lurks a certain idea of Britain, or of England. We are trying to find our identity.”
[My emphasis]’
Ahundrethidiot: “ What happened to Greece was a conspiracy theorists dream come true and should serve as a warning about where sovereignty ultimately lies – in the hands of the banking world.”
I agree, but it’s the banks we have to tame and re-regulate again.
Only the EU and Iceland brought in legislation to limited bonuses. The UK government resisted it, and Osborne gave them 15 years to get themselves in order. Fifteen years – plenty of time to shift ill-gotten gains around the world, and reregister in Panama or Shanghai. Lovely jubbly.
Even if Europe’s left parties do succeed in forging a common program, the EU is not the kind of political entity whose approach to the world can be altered by popular politics. Popular politics is precisely what the EU was designed to obstruct. Like independent central banks and constitutional courts, its institutions are essentially technocratic. Technocracy is not (as some like to pretend) a neutral or rational system of government. Instead, it confers immense power on culturally select bodies whose prejudices will be those of the class their members are drawn from. The SNP, nor the Labour party will ever offer a referendum on the EU.
A reformed EU is not on the ballot paper, nor will it be reformed in any significant way in the future. A hypothetical indy-ref is not the key issue.
Grouse beater
I would refer you to Noam Chomskeys Requiem for the American Dream on Netflix.
There will only ever be continued deregulation, in every field, in what he refers to as the viscous cycle.
I can’t think of anything that might change this. We are certainly not in the rapids of revolution here, so, it’ll be business as usual. Fewer winners, more losers.
Thank you, K1
There are different manifestations of racism.
Whether a crude hatred of foreigners, a dislike of immigrants, a resistance to the UK as a safe haven for refugees, Turkey as a terrible place full of murderers and thieves, or England as thee most powerful nation after the USA, they are all manifestations of the same thing.
There’s a crevasse of legitimacy between wanting to be great nation and wanting to be a great power.
England was a great power and thinks it is a great power still, if only it could exercise it better free of encumbrance from Johnny Foreigner.
Today Johnny Foreigner is anybody outside, tomorrow it is anybody inside.
Jocks please be advised.
@robertknight says: 21 June, 2016 at 10:21 am:
” … Indy Ref. 2 will require exactly the same processes and set of circumstances as Indy Ref. 1.
To claim otherwise is pure “kidology”.
Utter balderdash, Robert, and I suspect you know it.
Fact is there is a tenet of English law that has been a main base of English law since ever there was English law.
It hinges upon the, “Divine Right of Kings”. You write of, “Legal Precedents”, and the Law of England, (and most of Europe), until 1688 and, “The Glorious Revolution”, held that Monarchs were appointed by God.
So, in 1688, when the Parliament of the Kingdom of England, deposed their God Appointed Monarch they were faced with the legal precedent that under English law he was appointed by God and the ruling was that once becoming sovereign a sovereign could not renounce their sovereignty for the simple reason they were sovereign.
So their work-around, or fudge, was to have King Billy & Queen Mary retain their, (claimed), Devine Right but renounce their veto over the Parliament of the Kingdom of England by delegating that parliament their Devine Right, (Sovereignty).
Which is why a parliament, while deposing a monarchy, did not just simply declare itself a republic but became instead, “A constitutional Monarchy”. That is The Kingdom of England became a constitutional monarchy – Scotland, in 1688, was still an independent Kingdom and the Kingdom of Scotland had not deposed their monarch.
Thus began what was claimed by England as, “The Jacobite Rebellions”. How, though, could there be a rebellion by the Scots when, as a still independent kingdom, they had NOT deposed their monarch? You cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own.
As to precedent then, Robert, explain why if there was already a United Kingdom, a Treaty of Union was needed to unite the two still independent kingdoms in 1706/7, nineteen years later? Explain too why the two kingdoms were still fighting for that independent crown at Culloden in 1745, 57 years later?
The fact is that as far as legal precedents go English law has a dilemma of giant proportions and no amount of lies or propaganda can swerve round it.
If English Law states that on becoming sovereign a sovereign cannot renounce their sovereignty by reason of being sovereign then how can their Parliament claim to have gained sovereignty over the people of Scotland’s sovereignty when, as a sovereign people, the Scottish people cannot renounce their sovereignty?
In other words, not to put too fine a legal point to it, you are talking utter pish.
Re the SNP – it badly needs to raise its game on every front. Virtue signalling about ‘evil Tories’ and screaming ‘it’s our pound too’ is simple-minded pish that will not win over small u Unionist Scotland. Bovine conformity on all matters will not win over small u Unionist Scotland, a cult of the ‘dear leader’ will not win over small u Unionist Scotland. And jumping upon Project Fear the Goldman Sachs version (change is too risky) is utterly useless politics. Cheerleaders for idiocy does the cause of Scottish independence no favours at all.
Grouse Beater 1:15 pm
You wrote “To my remarks at 12.51, coincidentally this from Guardian Editorial today: …. “Those forces, for which Euroscepticism is a wholly inadequate word, range from crude racism and nativist dislike of immigrants, to humble patriotism and yearning for a maybe imaginary lost age. The referendum turns not so much on the national interest as on a national idea. Behind our present turmoil lurks a certain idea of Britain, or of England. We are trying to find our identity.”
Quoting someone else who happens to agree with your racism doesn’t make you, personally, any less racist Grousey. You are an appalling human being. You should be ashamed of yourself rather coming on here crowing about your stupid views on an entire race.
Popular politics is precisely what the EU was designed to obstruct. Like independent central banks and constitutional courts, its institutions are essentially technocratic. Technocracy is not (as some like to pretend) a neutral or rational system of government.
Joe Kinnear says: can you stop treating WoS readers like morons, or UKIPsters like sensibledave up there.
If what you say is true, how was the EU technocracy not able to stop the EU referendum on Thursday then?
Its just more fundamental reality that bears no relation to your SNP bad, leave EU stuff, well all the Leave stuff really.
Another UKOK idiot’s opinion matters because?
http://archive.is/FqsPW
Why doesn’t this bundle of UKOK delights just set her island of lawyers on them all.
Considering the amount of UKOK propaganda the chancer parroted at her scotland region, she’s got more front than Selfridges and probably owns them too.
@Petra
Thanks for the heads-up on the Greens. Reading the relevant info leads me to conclude that they’d support an Indy Ref. 2 on their terms, outlined below, and couldn’t necessarily be relied upon to vote for such simply because the SNP asks for their votes in Holyrood.
Citizens as legislators.
Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens’ preferred way of deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence. If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage. In such a referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence.
But you’re right, Campbell shouted her down when Joanna said “furthermore, furthermore…” so we didn’t get the benefit of her point which didn’t rely on the % vote – which as I said isn’t as important as bums-on-seats.
@Andrew
I appreciate that legislation changes along with circumstances, but knowing how Westminster works in respect of Scotland, I have no doubt that they’ll use every reason I’ve outlined previously, and that Sillars touched on, and a few more I haven’t even thought of, to prevent Scotland having another bite at the Indy cherry, for they are not honourable, these ‘honourable men’.
All those who talk as though Indy Ref. 2 is a ‘given’ should Scotland vote to Remain and the UK (rUK) vote to Leave need to wake up to the fact that nothing is ‘given’, because clever constitutional ‘experts’ in Holyrood, Westminster and the UK Supreme Court will see be able to see more holes in the “mandate” argument than a swiss cheese.
@Joe Kinnear
Are you being paid to cut and paste exactly the same comments on every single Indy blog?
I see Labourhame still values free speech. Their latest post from Dugdale about playing nice doesn’t seem to like comments about Margrit Curran, and her views on the possibility of Alec Salmond being run over by a bus.
‘stupid views on an entire race.’
The people who live in England aren’t a ‘race’. But if you think you are…are you a supreme-race?
*…just cackling away here…pure comedy gold on this thread right now*
Telt ye he was ‘spoiling fur a fight’ and if naebdy wis gonnae gie him wan he wis gonnae fight wi his ain demins. *cackle cackle cackle*
Quoting someone else who happens to agree with your racism doesn’t make you, personally, any less racist Grousey. You are an appalling human being. You should be ashamed of yourself rather coming on here crowing about your stupid views on an entire race.”
Ah the English race. Dear old sensible, dear silly old sensible and his English race is probably the funniest thing today on the web, let alone WoS,
All together now, There’ll always be an England, And England shall be free. If England means as much to you. As England means to me.
That’s all I know.
The English race, its the title of JK Rowling’s next block buster, How the English race is the best race, of all the races, it must be, sensibledave there says, stop being mean to it.
whether nicola has a firm mandate for indyref2, because of comments in the snp 2016 he manifesto, is irrelevant
if brexit, and we see a confirmed and sustained swing from no to yes over the next 11 months, the snp can put a firm commitment to indyref2 in every snp councillor candidates manifesto prior to the council elections in may2017.
indisputable democratic mandate after the snp sweep the board.
we couldnt hold indyref2 before may2017 anyway, to run a referendum which was contested by westminster, we would need to controll all councils, it is the councils who organise the polling stations.
whether or not nicola calls for indyref2 will depend on whether or not we see a confirmed and sustained swing from no to yes over the next 11 months. regardless of the euref result
Juteman says:
@Joe Kinnear
Are you being paid to cut and paste exactly the same comments on every single Indy blog?
I see Labourhame still values free speech. Their latest post from Dugdale about playing nice doesn’t seem to like comments about Ian Davidson, and his views on the possibility of bayoneting the wounded yes supporters.
Juteman says:
@Joe Kinnear
Are you being paid to cut and paste exactly the same comments on every single Indy blog?
I see Labourhame still values free speech. Their latest post from Dugdale about playing nice doesn’t seem to like comments about Johanne Lamont, and her views on the yes supporters being a virus.
Joke in Here
do you have you’re own mind or are you one of the “last of the Labourites” a clan once found living in Scotland, now replaced by the more culturally advanced, intelligent and stronger SNP?
Now pleas don’t just cut and paste a reply, use whats left of your brain, and try and form a coherent argument!
I hope all you Yoons on here are taking your (re)education well. Bit of an eye-openner this place, isn’t it.
Sensible Dave
I just Love youre faux outrage at grousey, it made me wonder where it came from? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hfZqbZtT6E
@the cat/not cat.
lol!
Edmund says:
But I’m not convinced that a Brexit-inspired second referendum would return a Yes.
it isnt brexit which will inspire indyref2, it is a measurable swing from yes to no in the polls which will initiate indyref2. a brexit may cause this swing, or it may not, if it doesnt then no indyref2
why is this so difficult for people to understand??
Proud Cybernat says:
21 June, 2016 at 2:37 pm
I hope all you Yoons on here are taking your (re)education well. Bit of an eye-openner this place, isn’t it.
What you mean when the English race leaves the EU Thursday, maybe, the essentially technocratic EU Technocracy wont step and cancel the English race from leaving the EU?
Y’see, “Popular politics is precisely what the EU was designed to obstruct.”
And so, the EU ref on Thursday’s got nothing at all to do with “popular politics” at all, For sure, some blighters say Cameron only called an EU referendum because the tory party of the English race thought they were about to lose the last UKOK general election to a bunch of proto fascist UKIP lunatics, that have picked up on the fact that three terms of Crash Gordon’s economic genius has left vast tracts of the English rave verily hacked off with their lot in this UKOK life.
And its all the fault of non English race types coming over here etc.
English race v EU technocracy? And we voted NO for the BetterTogether privilege 2014.
I am quite perturbed about this Euro referendum, but not for the reasons you’d expect.
When I watched the goings on as they related to our YES referendum, I was thoroughly appauled by the lack of rigour right across the spectrum. On the NO side, we had the dire and unloved Adam’s family trying too hard to be scary while pushing a three wheeled pram of a Better Together campaign which was a borderline parody of how “not” to run a campaign. In the centre, we had the scandalously unprofessional and transparent Unionist media which couldn’t even spin its own impartiality with any degree of convincing persuasion. And on the YES side we have hordes of Yessers thoroughly intoxicated by aspirational utopias but represented by spokespeople in and out of government who didn’t dare ruffle the BBC’s feathers and cause them to say beastly things about the YES campaign. Surprise, surprise, it all trundled along at about 3 miles an hour and delivered a result compromised by improprieties, and which neither addressed nor settled one single iota of the Independence issue.
Somewhat bewildered, in a “did that really just happen?” kind of way, thoughts turn to anger and, it must be said wholly approriate alarm at the wall to wall skullduggery. We can’t exactly settle the issue with a recount, so lets pencil in a date and/or special occassion when we can do it all over again… but leave everything that went wrong just exactly the way it is.
Here was I thinking “You HATEFUL BBC. You STOLE Scotland’s democratic freedom, and worse, our politicians were all to a man, of the “none so blind as those that will not see” variety. What a fucking waste of time that was.
But now we have this Brexit malarky, and its like some surreal déja vû is going on. We have the whole dysfuntional Wild West Show there before our eyes, appearing at a new venue, right down to the same tired and tawdry script and unfunny jokes, all simply reheated and logo’s changed on the literature.
Is that how democracy works? Because both of these important referenda seem to bear an uncanny resemblance to Bomber Command in early WW2; a cacophony of sound, fire and shrapnel, but where merely one bomb in every hundred was dropped within 5 miles of the target. Pitiful.
I suppose our politicians can be excused. Most of them are amateurs for want of a better description. But dear God, surely in this day and age, we can deconstruct this train wreck of a broadcasting news service and demand at the very least a rational, objective, diligent and impartial presentation of RELEVANT issues. I mean seriously, how hard can it be?
What is the point holding any referendum or election while this stuffed Worzall Gummidge of a news service is left in charge of all the cameras and microphones? I swear to God, that young lassie doing noughts and crosses on the Test Card made things clearer than the £3.4 billion a year BBfuckinC.
if brexit
ruth davidson says scot tories will split from bojo tory party
alex massie says he will switch from no to yes in indyref2
diago says it wont support no in indyref2
polls in scotland say massive win for remain
how england votes is their concern, i cant do anything about it.
but if it is brexit, i believe we will see a swing from no to yes in the polls over the next 11 months.
and it looks like i am not the only one to believe this
if you live in england, vote leave, if you cant then vote remain, but above all else, after the vote on thursday, make sure you tell everyone you voted remain.
@schrodingers cat
Pretty much. A Brexit on its own is a constitutional trigger. As a trigger it can be deployed anytime in the aftermath. As an event its simply one more broken or fudged indyref pledge to add to the now sizeable list of broken and fudged pledges.
The only thing that can start the ball rolling on indyref2 is popular demand, the public will. And as has been exhaustively repeated by the FM, there has to be a CLEAR and consistent majority in favour for the SG to act. They won’t break that pledge IMO.
In the aftermath of this EU vote, people will need time to absorb and assess the result. The SG will need time to build consensus with their new independence initiative and the approach of the latter will be dictated by the result of the former.
Patience and a measured approach.
“but leave everything that went wrong just exactly the way it is.”
what will win indyref2 isnt due to us changing our position on any of the issues, it is events overtaking the bt campaign.
they cant argue for the economic stability of the status quo while the uk economy is crashing and burning
they cant argue that an indy scotland wouldnt get into the eu after a brexit and the EU confirming that an indy scotland would be fast tracked into the eu.
the situation changes, eg the tories won the 2015 ge, a brexit may win in england etc, these “events” are things we have no control over, it matters not how many leaflets you post or people you canvas in scotland and, most importantly, where you change or “leave everything that went wrong just exactly the way it is.”
events dear boy, events
@ schrodingers cat says at 2:50 pm …. ”it isnt brexit which will inspire indyref2, it is a measurable swing from yes to no in the polls which will initiate indyref2. a brexit may cause this swing, or it may not, if it doesnt then no indyref2. why is this so difficult for people to understand??
I don’t think it is SC but I’m just thinking of the many rUK people living here and those who will head here, unhappy about Brexit, voting Yes next time round. That and the many other ‘scunnersome’ things that are bound to happen over the next 1 / 2 years or so.
………………………………………..
@ Joe Kinnear says at 1:38 pm …. ”The SNP, nor the Labour party will ever offer a referendum on the EU.”
I think that statement just highlights how you have got the measure of many SNP members and supporters all wrong Joe. When (note) we get our Independence the apathy of living under a distant, disinterested Government will disappear and I think you’ll find that the Scots in general will be much more ‘vocal’. If we want a Referendum on the EU I doubt very much that anyone would stand in our way… if so to their absolute detriment.
………………………………………..
@ Grouse Beater says at 1:50 pm …. ”There are different manifestations of racism….
England was a great power and thinks it is a great power still, if only it could exercise it better free of encumbrance from Johnny Foreigner. Today Johnny Foreigner is anybody outside, tomorrow it is anybody inside. Jocks please be advised.”
Yeah it suits them to scapegoat the foreigners to deflect from their own inadequencies / crimes, like the German Nazis, and you’re right GB if they Brexit they’ll be looking for someone else to target / blame. It reminds me of this:
http://hmd.org.uk/resources/poetry/first-they-came-pastor-martin-niemoller
…………………………………………
@ Joe Kinnear says at 1:51 pm …. ”Re the SNP – it badly needs to raise its game on every front. Virtue signalling about ‘evil Tories’ and screaming ‘it’s our pound too’ is simple-minded pish that will not win over small u Unionist Scotland. Bovine conformity on all matters will not win over small u Unionist Scotland, a cult of the ‘dear leader’ will not win over small u Unionist Scotland. And jumping upon Project Fear the Goldman Sachs version (change is too risky) is utterly useless politics. Cheerleaders for idiocy does the cause of Scottish independence no favours at all.”
Well what about outlining what you think the SNP should actually do Jo? It’s too easy just to jump on the bandwagon and be destructive rather than constructive.
And by the way it is OUR ‘sterling’ too Jo and the Tories (many) ARE evil.
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/michael-fry-the-currency-question-is-simple—an-independent-scotland-would-use-the-pound.18851
……………………………………….
@ robertknight says at 2:14 pm …….
We’ll get there Robert one way or another (winking). I’m going for, predicting, Independence Day 24th March 2019.
Macart says:
21 June, 2016 at 3:04 pm
@schrodingers cat
Pretty much. A Brexit on its own is a constitutional trigger.
no it isnt but it can be argued as such
As a trigger it can be deployed anytime in the aftermath.
correct, but the real trigger is public opinion measured by the polls
As an event its simply one more broken or fudged indyref pledge to add to the now sizeable list of broken and fudged pledges.
once again, this wasnt our doing and westminster didnt NEED to do this. if they had delivered the vow, the snp and yes could have been campagning to leave today.possibly
The only thing that can start the ball rolling on indyref2 is popular demand, the public will. And as has been exhaustively repeated by the FM, there has to be a CLEAR and consistent majority in favour for the SG to act. They won’t break that pledge IMO.
agree completely with this, if people dont like this fact, tough, they should have voted for RISE instead
In the aftermath of this EU vote, people will need time to absorb and assess the result.
yup, but if it is a brexit, then their will be an urgency to relaunch the local yes groups. we have a meeting on the 30th, if brexit, i will bet it will be very busy.
The SG will need time to build consensus with their new independence initiative and the approach of the latter will be dictated by the result of the former.
true, but the snp cannot have anything to do with a relaunched grass roots campaign
Patience and a measured approach.
yup
“we couldnt hold indyref2 before may2017 anyway, to run a referendum which was contested by westminster, we would need to controll all councils, it is the councils who organise the polling stations.”
Yes, SC, which is why I hope the SNP will offer clear advice on how to deploy a STV vote to maximum effect. Next year’s elections will effectively be the Last Stand for The Union and the Yoons will throw everything at the electorate to confuse them and stymie independence.
Hope there is a plan.
O/T
The Bruce seal. Is there a fundraiser for it? Is the Scottish Government going to buy it? Or are we going to let this chance slip by, whilst distracted by London’s pet clown, Boris?
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/appeal-for-eleventh-hour-bidder-to-keep-700-year-old-bruce-seal-in-scotland.19026
The Bruce seal. Is there a fundraiser for it? Is the Scottish Government going to buy it? Or are we going to let this chance slip by, whilst distracted by London’s pet clown, Boris?
Let’s ask last queen of her scotland region JK Rowling to buy it for us, because she really weally wuves us, really weally weally.
We could rename it in her honour, the queen JK the Rowling of Scotland and Dunfermline Abbey Cokete Seal.
Its even an ugly word, rowling.
@schrodingers cat
‘there will be an urgency’
I’d say. In such an eventuality I’d also agree that parties need to keep a wider berth from the grass roots. The MSM and HMG drove the party politicised angle last time round. Manipulated the perception to their benefit. Personalised assaults on the FM and the SNP government and conflated the YES movement with party politics as it suited them. They can’t be allowed that kind of space again.
The thought of a cross party political campaign as a separate entity from the grassroots may just give the media and HMG a headache as multiple moving targets are that much harder to hit. 😉
Joke in ‘ere. Your attempt to trash Sturgeon and label SNP supporters as “cultists” is old hat and pathetic. I see you offering the same cack on WGG. Cut n paste away but if Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP were ten times worse than they are now they would still be a hundred times better than anything else currently on offer. Dugdale? Davidson? Rennie? As our English friends say “you’re aving a laugh.
Is it a full moon just now?
This site should demand a £1.00 fine for every time somebody says “The SNP needs to do more”
I want to see Scotland independent,so I will be voting remain.
David Cameron only agreed to indyref1 because he thought he would win it easily. He got a bad scare then and he won’t want to repeat the experience.
I don’t think that the threats of David Cameron (and Ruth Davidson in this morning’s FT) that a leave vote might lead to indyref2 are anything more than an attempt to scare conservatives in England.
I can’t see any Brexit Tory being any more amenable to Scottish independence. They will be too busy disconnecting from all those pesky European laws about the environment or workplace rights to give Scotland a thought.
Some good might come to Scotland if the Euro referendum result is very close, so that Scotland keeps England in, as others have commented. But there are millions more voters in England, so trying to organise such a knife edge result is not safe.
Best of all would be if a close vote leads to the matter being decided in the house of commons. Some concessions might be given to secure the votes of those 56 M.P.s. Brexit Tories might even split the Conservative (and Unionist) party.
macart
Personalised assaults on the FM and the SNP government and conflated the YES movement with party politics as it suited them. They can’t be allowed that kind of space again.
spot on. I would go further, no snp mp, msp or councillor should be seen at any yes2 rally or even photographed with until nicola definitively announces indyref2 is on. at which point they can and will come steaming in
Andrew McLean 2:46 pm
“I just Love your faux outrage at grousey, it made me wonder where it came from?”
… its not Faux outrage Andrew, its calling it as it is. No matter how deeply, you or anyone else, feels about the issue of scottish independence, the one thing everyone knows is that the “people” of England did not express a view, or have a vote or get involved in the debate to any great extent.
It was the people of Scotland, on balance, voted against.
And there, still, is your problem. You can come on Wings and bitch and moan, create bogey men, blame everyone else (although predominantly folks in England are the real problem apparently).
I would suggest the extent of your problem is the likes of the loonies like Grousey and Heedy. Ordinary folk in Scotland are broadly the same as ordinary folk in England and both abhor loudmouthed bigots that believe that insulting anyone with different political views is the way forward.
Grousey, for instance, thinks that writing a contemptible racist comment is OK if he writes it. To accuse the “English” of being racist – is, in itself, a racist comment in my view.
You really need to get out more. I suspect you spend so much time here where casual and sweeping generalisations act as a dog whistle to other loonies to join in – that it comes as a bit of a shock when someone actually holds up a mirror for you to take a proper look at yourself.
Do you think it is acceptable that Grousey should be allowed to accuse all the people of England of being racists – and not be challenged on his distorted and perplexing views on life?
There might be hope for Grousey. He occasionally shows some brain cells still work but the sort of puerile trash he came out with today does him no credit. On the other hand, Heedy is way gone! A Blood and soil nationalist that justifies his impenetrable outpourings to himself and others on the basis the ends justifies the means.
… its been good to pop back in and see the same names uttering the same stuff over and over.
@ Robert Louis
I think there were two fundraisers (which immediately complicated matters) to buy the Bruce seal; I think I might have donated to one of them, but I have no idea how they got on.
It looks as if “not well enough” is the answer.
@robertknight says:
““Qualified” indeed, but unlike last time we’re still short of a majority, and TBH I doubt the Greens would risk their political necks on siding with the SNP unless the polls were consistently showing 60%+ for “Yes”.”
————-
If Brexit wins, it will have shown that a referendum campaign doesn’t have to start in the lead, let alone with 60% support.
And the Greens know which side their bread is buttered on.
Half their support is tactical votes from SNP supporters.
If they deny a second referendum, they will be going back to 3% support from hippies and naive students.
@Shrodingers Cat 3:15
But that’s not my point SC…
My point is the formulaic way the media handled the YES referendum, and the same method adopted for Brexit.
In both events, the important and meaty issues are kept off the agenda, while what does get broadcast is vacuuous hystrionics which lean heavily towards whichever way the medias bias lies. It is shallow and inane, but deliberately so.
Unless this is challenged and properly addressed, the very best YES arguments won’t see the light of day, the hypocrisy will be erased, and the Britnat message will be pumped up to the max and beamed out across the land.
Our referendum will not be held in a just country where solid objective reality and well reasoned argument is bound to prevail. This is the UK, and its run by money and bullshit, a large amount of both being funnelled through the BBC.
Good stuff from Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp
“Vote Leave just blew the Scottish independence debate wide open”
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/vote-leave-just-blew-scottish-independence-debate-wide-open/
TC
Yes, SC, which is why I hope the SNP will offer clear advice on how to deploy a STV vote to maximum effect. Next year’s elections will effectively be the Last Stand for The Union and the Yoons will throw everything at the electorate to confuse them and stymie independence.
Hope there is a plan.
nope, the stv vote at the local elections is one of the most complicated systems ever. i have never met anyone in the snp who even had a vague understanding of it. what i can say about 2017 LE is
1. at least one third of all council seats will be uncontested by the snp, not because they dont have people or want too, they just cant. standing 3 candidates in a 3 seat ward is in most wards too risky and lessens the chance of getting 2 councilors elected.
2. you cant even vote tactically to get snp councillors elected, let alone other indy candidates, so that disagreement during 2016 he is well and truly over.
before anyone complains about this, I campaigned for a line to be added to the snp manifesto where it talked of reforming council tax to include the intention of reforming the election system for council elections. it was refused. Im not crying over spilt milk, just pointing out that we now have no mandate to reform the system and there is no point complaining about it. This is what we are faced with in 2017le.
we have to live with it
On the other hand, Heedy is way gone! A Blood and soil nationalist that justifies his impenetrable outpourings to himself and others on the basis the ends justifies the means.”
I have but save me sensible! Dear silly old sensible. Hey sensible, afore you throw another toryboy tantrum, can you tell WoS readers how you spot an actual member of your English race please?
Do you use eye and skin colour sensible, gene testing, skull shape? religion maybe, how you vote, especially on Thursday no doubt.
English racing’s quite tricky maybe but a UKOK tory twit like sensibledave will take a stab at it. Hope just asking this doesn’t make me a racist though:D
Think about how Kezia Dugdale actually feels about Scotland. Last night she said that in the event of Brexit she would still back the UK, even if Scotland votes remain. Based not on democracy, or what the people of Scotland want. No instead based on alleged economies of scale.
She said the biggest market for scotland was England, and not being in the UK but in Europe would jeapordise this. So in other words the English can do whatever they want and she will still force Scotland to remain part of something they have no say in.
We have a Tory government that only 14% of Scots voted for. Slabour would rather Scotland was run into the ground by Tories. Than be independent and getting the government they voted for.
So ladies and gentlement there you have it. Kezia thinks the UK is more important than the Scottish people or what we vote for.
To me that is a form of madness. We often ponder at what it would take before Slabour and the Yoons decide the UK is bad for Scotland. The answer is nothing. No punishment is to severe for them. England can do what it wills to Scotland, and they will kiss their feet and take a red hot poker up their collective arses forevermore.
They care not a jot for our franchise or what we vote for. England is absolute.
Sensible Dave,
Are you really denying the lurch to the right in England? Are you denying the anti Scottish vile comments in the English Press, and yes David, this by no means is me saying you can extrapolate that to the wider English community, and take it from me I would be the first and have been to utterly condemn racism, sexism or any anti English, french or any outer peoples on here!
Personally I think you miss us when you “Get out More”, well we miss you too David! There is nothing more you’re average Scotsman loves than a condescending Englishman putting us right!
🙂
the traditional media has less and less influence as they are exposed as the liars they are. And since we dont control the traditional media, it is difficult what more we can do to stop them.
yes support sits at about 50%, inspite of bbc propaganda
a sharp fall in pensions would cause the 10% of no voters to switch to yes, if this were to happen, even auntie beeb could do nothing about it
Seems to be a day for very long posts & very small dicks. Petra is spot-on about Sillars, he’s an arse & if there’s any justice this will be his last throw of the dice.
Folk are losing sight of the fact that our problem is Westminster not Brussels but as Fred has alrady voted “Stey”, mair snash is pointless.
person. Im voting out!
me… but what about all of those lovely german cars?
person. I dont trust german cars… their headlamps are too close together….
me….. um…
hedge funds have tasked pollsters with carrying out exit polls, so we should have a fair idea of what the result is through the hedge funds leaking out information
keep an eye out for this
In my office there is a direct correlation between Scot Indi no voters and Brexiters. They see their country as the UK. They want independence for a country that is already independent!
Yes there are little Englanders in Scotland too. Not even sure I would call them plastic jocks. More like candi-floss.
You can put money on it; half the Indyref2 campaign, whenever it happens, will be focussed upon the democratic credentials of the first referendum and our refusal to accept the matter is settled, and the BBC will exhort people to shun the debate because us “undemocratic” Nationalists won’t listen to reason anyway because we are a cult or brainwashed or some such crap.
The old faithful “Ah, you don’t have any answers to the questions” mantra will undoubted feature strongly, though asymetrically of course, because the Unionists won’t have any answers either, but that will be glossed over.
I could speculate on the other 3 or 4 chestnuts required to fill the alloted political time slot, but you can work out what those will be just as well as I can.
We all have such a lack of vital imagination and initiative that we will all trudge down this same path and trust that it will be different this time. It is already happening.
People say don’t blame the SNP. If you think I’m being hard on the SNP, you cannot imagine their good fortune that I am an Independentist, because if the SNP and I were on opposite sides of the Indy debate, I would savage their dismal attitude and performance beyond sensible measure. But hey, they’re on our side…or so I was told.
@sensibledave,
Sorry mate but you are on a lose Re racism. Surveys conducted by the BBC in 2014/2015 showed one third of English participants held prejudice towards other races.
Now,remind me of how many riots you have had in England over the last 15 years or so directly related to racism,then compare that to Scotland record. You can’t.
I understand your need to defend your kinsfolk, but the facts don’t stack up to solid your claims.
Rancid The Graun chats with its scotland region FM. Its unusual as that UKOK crew have an ongoing smear Sturgeon campaign and a total black out on this region of teamGB, Cant think why.
http://archive.is/F2Fx0
“Asked whether there were plans in place to initiate the process for a second Scottish independence referendum should there be a Brexit victory on Thursday, in which the majority of Scots vote to remain but are dragged out of the EU by other parts of the UK, Sturgeon said: “Our manifesto was very clear that the Scottish parliament should in these circumstances have the right to propose another referendum. Even if we don’t take the decision straightaway that it’s definitely happening in a particular timescale, we’ll have to start doing certain things to keep that option open. It takes time to legislate for a referendum. So it’s going to be really important to make sure that every option that is available to Scotland to protect our position is kept open.”
Rancid The Graun clearly not thinking the thinkable, what happens in Scotland keeps England in the EU?
Will they be able to hear themselves whining, over my laughing:D
Rancid The Graun clearly not thinking the thinkable, what happens IF Scotland keeps England in the EU?
ooops.
Yeah I stole this from someone else but I concur.
DEAR Fellow Yes Voter,
For some time now the SNP have applied a “One Voice” principle where a small elite at the head of the party make generic, vote-winning policies before farming them out for branches to adopt in the minds of the incredibly loyal, disciplined and united membership.
It is at this point where members have to decide whether to accept the dogma or to question or even challenge it. However, before doing so they should be aware of the repercussions and the reactions that they are likely to receive from blinkered, conditioned colleagues who see any challenge to the Party Line as some form of treason.
The line of supporting “Independence Within the EU” is not only a contradiction in terms, because we cannot be independent whilst governed by an autocratic, unelected elite, but also that the party are cunning in placating the new and pushier post-indyref members by selling it as a possible trigger for indyref2.
The irony is that the veto from Spain remains as resolute today as it was when first delivered by Senor Barroso and Nicola’s understandable hesitation in holding another referendum, that we would lose, shows a very astute leader. That is precisely why she opted to omit it from our manifesto. Our time will come, but it’s with great sadness that I must concede that it’s not now, but it will happen and it will be under Nicola’s inspiring leadership.
So, for the decision that we take on Thursday, we must temporarily put aside our impatient push for independence from the UK and look carefully at the question in front of us. We are being asked if Scotland is too wee or too stupid to be a fully independent country or should we continue as a sub-state of the UK within the EU, ready to morph into the United States of Europe and trade off further sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats.
Should we succumb to the ongoing secret trade deal between Washington and Brussels (TTIP) and watch our NHS and our water be privatised by giant US corporations, or should we say that the NHS wasn’t for sale during indyref1 and it’s still not for sale now? TTIP cannot proceed if we vote to leave the EU, so by sending Obama homeward to think again we can not only save Scotland, but Europe, from this democratic atrocity.
Scotland had our chance on September 18, 2014 to grasp the nettle and we declined, but luckily we find ourselves with another chance to seize control of our destiny on the path to FULL independence. We can be pro-European without being members of an irretrievable EU. We can offer people from all over the world the opportunity to be part of Scotland’s exciting future without damaging our society with uncontrolled borders, by offering employment to people who match our needs rather than following the EU’s restrictive immigration policy. We can be world leaders in offering women and children seeking asylum a safe haven outside of the grossly mismanaged migrant crisis by the aforementioned EU elite.
If you have unwavering faith in Scotland, as I do, then I urge you to vote for the first step on the road to Scotland’s independence by the only vote to put us in the driving seat and in control of our destiny … a vote to leave the EU.
Gary Parker, Saltcoats
Breeks says:
“The old faithful “Ah, you don’t have any answers to the questions” mantra will undoubted feature strongly, though asymetrically of course, because the Unionists won’t have any answers either, but that will be glossed over.”
That won’t be quite so simply next time, though I do agree they will try it on.
IndyRef1 the Unionists didn’t put their vision of a future and associated offers on the table until the last few weeks. It was nebulous and there was no time for scrutiny.
IndyRef2, is response to Brexit, will have the Unionist future wide open and being laid bare as the negotiations between WM and the EU proceed. There will be no hiding it and the London media will be all over it, despite the concurrent Indy campaign in Scotland. There WILL be two clear visions on display.
Of course the media will try to separate the two. The colonial media based in Scotland will only focus on the problems with Indy.
However, the wider public will have two futures to choose from. The reality of Brexit UK is going to be something more Scots will want away from, IMO.
There are going to be three groups at or leaning to YES – those already YES, those NOs who don’t like the look of Brexit UK, and Leave voters (Yes & No) who realise Brexit isn’t as described on the packaging.
Northern Irish EU referendum poll:
Remain: 52%
Leave: 38%
(via LucidTalk / 15-17 Jun)
Although smaller in numbers that Scotland, NI will contribute to keeping the whole UK in.
As has oft been said, what a laugh it will be if England votes narrowly to leave, and Scotland & NI keep them in against their will.
If it is Brexit ( I think it will be ) what will happen with NI. Will it trigger reunification? Would our Ulster cousins put EU before UK in sufficient numbers?
Andy D: “The irony is that the veto from Spain remains as resolute today as it was when first delivered by Senor Barroso “
The stupidity of alleged SNP supporters freely proclaiming to hundreds of thousands of people on open social site a despotic SNP won’t allow them to express themselves, should be treated with the derision it deserves.
Put another way, “Nicola is a great leader who is not a great leader.
Give me strength!
schrodingers cat says:
21 June, 2016 at 3:03 pm
if brexit
ruth davidson says scot tories will split from bojo tory party
alex massie says he will switch from no to yes in indyref2
diago says it wont support no in indyref2
polls in scotland say massive win for remain
how england votes is their concern, i cant do anything about it.
but if it is brexit, i believe we will see a swing from no to yes in the polls over the next 11 months.
and it looks like i am not the only one to believe this
This is exactly why the BBC *loves* Scottish Leave voters. And why we are suddenly getting a crop of new names on here going ‘I support independence but I’m voting leave’.
Gosh it’s a bit frothy on here today…I know IanB suggested a 3 option choice for the day before the ref and one of them was ‘Strollin’ with Stuey’ but ah didnae ‘hink ‘Trolliin’ wi Yoonies’ would be the
leftright fielder takin’ the early lead in the run up!Another proud member of the toryboy race in action. And they voted NO to be controlled by the tories?
http://archive.is/feU9R
Here’s an interesting discussion between Yanis Varoufakis and Paul Mason on why Britain must stay in Europe. Sponsored by the Guardian in October 2015. 1hr 23 mins.
At least scroll along to approx 40 – 47 mins where he talks about Scotland and backs independence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md6_WfF9Ky0#t=236.155859
Wow! It’s been quite a day on here.
So many bacon rolls, so little time…..
Sheesh. Now everybody can be a unionist shill.
This topic needs an intermission: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7nS
Of course Gideon pours scorn on both Yanis Varoufakis and Paul Mason. What better recommendation could there be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lbcGo-B-6c
Oh no! But what will yoonster toryboys like Kevrage and Professor Smirky do of an evening, if they can no longer sit in the £400 million box of UKOK grot they call, Pacfic Quay?
http://archive.is/o7gwq
To be fair to BBC Scotland creeps, statistics show that there’s 2% more chance of increased viewers, if they are actually in the shows.
Stars of toryboy world weep
https://twitter.com/kevverage
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins Jun 19
Yes. This. #VoteRemain to show the world the open, vibrant, confident country we are
@ Galamcennalath
The media won’t have it so easy next time? How do you work that out?
This media can reduce the McCrone Report to outdated paperwork which its author now allegedly disputes, but then go on to argue against the McCrone type economy the Norwegians have built for themselves which gets redefined as an “asset curse” for poor old Scotland. BBC’s Douglas Fraser taking the piss out his own country.
I have to say, for all their reptilian ethics, the Unionist media has made a lot more capital out of the McCrone Report than our SNP elected government, and if you can’t make the case for independence on the back of the McCrone report predicting for Scotland what Norway has seen delivered, then frankly, what the fecking hell are they playing at?
You really think Brexit is a more immotive subject more likely to further our interests as an Independent country than the McCrone Report? How about the betrayal of Rosyth? Our expendible fishing fleet? Our nuclear base near the heart of Glasgow? 1 in 5 of our kids living in poverty? The infrastructure we were promised, paid for but never got futher North than Birmingham? Our coal, ship building, steel making, textiles industries all sold down the river?
Brexit, if it happens will be different aye? No it won’t.
We already have the winning arguments; we got them in bulk, wholesale. We’ve got the complete set. But until we have access to an objective medium for broadcasting the whole story to our own people, we are going to remain precisely where we are, trapped in this despicable union and shielded from the truth.
Until we have a government with the bollocks and the brains to defeat this propaganda in our livingrooms, nothing much is going to change.
Win the media battle, we win everything. Fail to win the battle, then Independence is a long shot, and won’t be a cut and dried affair when we get there.
Breeks says:
“@ Galamcennalath
The media won’t have it so easy next time? How do you work that out?”
Because they will be covering the Brexit chaos and leave negotiations at the same time as Scotland is negotiating stay, and Indy.
They won’t be covering Brexit is a Scottish context, we will be a sideline. Glorious England and it’s future will be their focus. But that does mean Scots are going to get a wide open view of what staying in Greater England will mean.
With IndyRef1 we got no worthwhile info on what NO meant. Next time, it should be crystal clear to all because the London media will be full of it.
Wee EBC Shortbread will be the same again, but with BIG EBC London talking EU and England’s future constantly, it will be a lot different.
Scotland 2016 ?@BBCScot2016 21h21 hours ago
Joining us later tonight to discuss some of today’s top stories we have @ptupdate & @naysmithHT #Scotland2016
2 retweets 2 likes
Reply Retweet 2
Like 2
Top story? Your fired. Ed
2 likes eh. Or same nightly viewer figures, excluding studio crew’s pets and nights when unionist toryboy of the year 2014,15,16 Kevrage wasn’t on.
Suppose it was a surprise to see my Slovene girlfriend suddenly pop up on BBC 2016 telly, taking time out from mountains of Slovenia says vote NO 2014, you deluded fascist cultists and so on.
Andy D,
The best way not to make a complete arse of yourself is not to concur with idiots, the person who wrote that clearly has no idea how the SNP works, again like the other Andy use your own brain, formulate an opinion and let’s test it, after all you might be on to something, but please don’t rehash shit and think you are in any way being intelligent, interesting or even amusing.
Poor effort, thank god for cut and paste, you might have had to do some typing there!
@K1 6.23
It’s really boring now, all the same old, same old….
‘I’ve supported Independence since I fought at Culloden, BUT..
‘I’m a staunch SNP supporter, BUT….
Blah,blah….groupthink….useless….cult…..unquestioning..
Zzzzzzzzz
@Breeks. I am pretty much in agreement. I am ok with the SNP positive campaign approach but NOT where the BBC is concerned and there are many arguments supporting independence that were not even referred to in the SNPs white paper.
I also don’t see any change with the current leaderships soft and patient strategy and zero tactics either. How can we passively change and challenge the BBC? We cannot.
The SNP should have voted through an alternative public Broadcasting service and to hell with the Reserved issue. The rammy created would have allowed us to directly attack the bias and lack of accountability of the BBC operating in Scotland to the Scottish public.
Just happened to look at SCFF – a great resource for Indy Ref 1 and still valid, McHarg and Bell both became YES voters after being prime movers in starting up the forum.
It’s an article about the UK’s options after a Brexit, info which should have been put forward by both Leave – and Remain, and it’s by Neil Walker, a top constitutional guy.
http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/7183/Neil-Walker-In-Out-or-In-Between-Rebooting-Britain-in-Europe-after-the-Brexit-Referendum.aspx
Anyway, if the rUK votes out, and Scotland stays in, I forsee a great future for the Borders on both sides of the actual border. They’ll be booming, and good luck to them.
The SNP should have voted through an alternative public Broadcasting service and to hell with the Reserved issue.
Voted through where though? Thing is, even if by some miracle. Scotland is given some kind of separate state broadcaster within the union, it will still be managed and crewed by exact same middle and upper middle class that own BBC Scotland. It would be no different from STV, while we are run by our tory neighbour.
FFS, taking what little we do have!
Perfect timing, eh?
http://tinyurl.com/gqsgzde
Ruthie back to her big shouty best again tonight. I’ve missed her these last few days.
Brian McHugh,
“Robert, you couldn’t be more wrong.”
I see he hasn’t responded.
Robert Peffers’ version of ancient history has zero relevance for today’s struggle for Scottish independence.
After 300 years, Scotland is still a colony, confirmed by the No vote of 2014.
That is the only thing that matters for the way forward.
sandycraig says:
21 June, 2016 at 8:21 pm
Ruthie back to her big shouty best again tonight. I’ve missed her these last few days.
——————–
Don’t know if Remain side have the wisest choice in panelists for these TV debates.
Many English people leaning towards a Leave vote are just going to see a shouty Jock and a Muslim lecturing them.
@Almannysbunnet says: 21 June, 2016 at 12:26 am:
“SORRY FOR SHOUTING BUT I URGE YOU TO WATCH MACART’S LINK AT 6:47
You will learn more in this 30 minute video than you will ever learn listening to either side in the referendum. This exposes the utter lies being perpetrated by both sides.”
Nah! Sorry to burst your bubble, Almannysbunnet, but the good Professor is hardly any better than the rest of the bare faced liars.
Mind you he does try to get to the nub of the matter. However, if you listen very carefully you will, like me, get to the bit that exposes him as hardly any better than the rest of the liars. Thing is that in his case he really should know better.
The Good Professor makes a very, very basic error of misrepresentation when he makes the claim, (NOTE:I paraphrase as I’m too busy just now to re-watch it to quote the exact time of his basic error).
“There is no doubt that the Westminster parliament is the sovereign power, “in this country”, .
For the love of Pete “The United KINGDOM” is exactly what it calls itself on the tin.
It is not now, and never has been a country. It is NOT, “The United Country”, of GB&NI it is, “The United KINGDOM of GB&NI”.
That union is, according to the Treaty and both Acts of Union, a bi-partite kingdom formed by two formerly equally sovereign independent kingdoms and one in which only the three country kingdom of England became a Constitutional Monarchy with a sovereign monarch as its head of state.
In Scottish law the people of Scotland are still legally sovereign and I have yet, in almost 80 years of asking, to find anyone who can show me documentary proof that the legally sovereign people of Scotland have ever been asked to renounce their legal sovereignty. Never mind producing a document showing they actually did renounced it.
Joe Kinnear @ 21:28 am said:
Varoufakis ain’t convinced. Is he not oppressed and left-wing enough for you? We all know ad nauseam that you kippers and the English kipper-loving press all want your precious Empire back and hate the EU with a vengeance, and have done for years, but the problem is….
…what the h*ll are you for?
@heedtracker
I never said ‘implemented’. Just the Go to set something up in the SP. Then all hell would break lose. Then we have a platform attack the BBC. After Saville etc the BBC are ripe.
Attack is the best form of defense in this. People are asking ‘How do we tackle the BBC’? This is my suggestion and I am deadly serious. However now that we don’t have a majority its a bit more complicated. Nevertheless we have to go on the attack one way or another.
Well, that’s going to be the line that everyone remembers from Sadiq Khan:
“Your campaign hasn’t been Project Fear – It’s been Project Hate”
Ma Da kin batter your Da
Right!
Did I just hear David Cameron talk of a vote remain divided?
Prime minister what are we going to do about this referendum thing? Oh nothing just dust of the plan from the jock referendum, change the names around a bit, who will know any better! Now where did I put that pigs head?
Back to the Revs vote in Bath:
I’d say the Rev made a bit of a cock-up of that vote but if it ‘came’ to a recount I’d say it looks like he was voting green and fcuk the rest.
I am just a bit concerned he doesn’t seem to firing very straight, hopefully it was again an undecided influence and not just a bad aim.
Toodal pip.
@robertknight says: 21 June, 2016 at 2:25 am:
” … Problem with that argument is that 54%, the majority, didn’t, so you still have no mandate.”
Balderdash! Robert. The dictionary definition of, “Mandate”, in this context is :-
“The authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an election”.
However, as there are, in most cases, more than two candidates or choices on the ballot paper it is utterly ludicrous to equate all others together against only one other candidate. It is a bit like comparing apples with a fruit salad.
Which is why the Westminster Government’s mandate usually comes from a good deal less than 30% of the total electorate of the United Kingdom and even less if we count abstainers and those who did not register to vote.
It beats me why Cameron doesn’t actually just say he will veto Turkey joining as things stand.
It would nip that one in the bud.
@Joe Kinnear says: 21 June, 2016 at 9:28 am:
“I wonder if anyone in the SNP actually reads widely or thinks critically?”
Nah! Joe, we’re just a big party of total numpties who never read anything and we just follow whatever our leaders tell us to follow.
” … The left-wing case against the EU is powerful and coherent – unlike Sturgeon’s dreadful and bovine Europhilla.”
As they say in the wash-hoose, Aye! Richt!
That’ll be a, “powerful and coherent case”, in your most humble opinion – of course, Joe?
” … Also the SNP do not own my vote, nor anyone else’s – yet they seem to think they do, along with owning Scottish sovereignty”
Well, Joe, no they do not think they own anyone’s votes. That trick belongs to the Labour Party who have this strange feeling that they owned the Scottish electorates votes. I well remember Willie Hamilton bragging in Kelty that, “If you stuck a Labour Rosette on a collie dogs collar the people of West Fife would vote for it”.
As to owning Scottish Sovereignty they don’t think they own that either for as everyone, “actually reads widely or thinks critically” knows the independent legal system of Scotland, as agreed in the Treaty and Acts of Union is based upon the basic tenet that The People of Scotland are legally sovereign. This, BTW:, is a legal precedent well establish in Scottish Courts.
See this :-
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=b56813a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
There it is, black upon white, from the Scottish courts.
@Robert Peffers says:at 8:40 pm
@Almannysbunnet says: 21 June, 2016 at 12:26 am:
Nah! Sorry to burst your bubble,
Robert I look forward to reading and learning from your writings on Scottish history and I understand why you get pissed off when people conflate the UK with “this country” and the sovereignty of Westminster etc. It’s your speciality and you are clearly more attuned to anyone getting it wrong. However I’m not going throw out everything the professor said because of that slip up.
I have posted the link to his vedeo far and wide today and emailed it to everyone I know. The reaction has been universally positive. If I can sum up the reaction it has been “why the feck have we not heard this before.” A lot have went from don’t know’s to remain.
Maybe you can write to the good professor and give him some edumacation on Scottish history. I look forward to reading many more of your postings. My bubble is still intact 🙂
Breaking – Scotland 2016 axed, at last.
Oh dear, how sad, never mind, says he still with a Welsh accent after last night’s fun.
Re; Andy.D, or gary? @5.51
Don’t think that a leave vote will secure the continuation of the NHS, especially in england. I signed a petition just the other day, re the UKokgov banning councils in england from running public bus services, ie they have to be run by profiteering private companies.
Vote remain, for Scotland.
Re my last comment@9.47
I meant to say, continuation of the NHS or other public services. I mean they generally don’t hold NHS consultations on the bus, or do ops on the bus! Well, not yet anyway!
Wee sorry squeezed in there Galamcennalath… Reading back, my comment comes across as a rebuke aimed at you but I didn’t mean it like that, it wasn’t like that in my head. I just didn’t make my point very well, but I hope I didn’t offend.
@Breeks
No offence was taken. 🙂
Most of us sing from the same hymn book, just sometimes we are on different pages.
Rock… maybe I didn’t make clear to Robert last night, that my mate (who supports Scottish Indy), lives in England.
I was just sounding out the weather south of the border (granted, in a limited way).
Regardless, I thought Robert’s jump to conclusion is still wrong.
‘The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else’
John Maynard Keynes
Whose politics and economics do you trust and who do you want ruling your world? A wee SG that manages to balance its budget and has the well-being of Scotland coded into its DNA or a WM elite that revels in any indication that Scotland is falling below the poverty line.
Margaret Mead, cultural anthropologist commented ‘Never believe that a few caring people can’t change the world. For, indeed, that’s all who ever have’
Politicians are better at their day job when they are listening to an engaged, educated electorate (dearie me the EU debate tonight -screeching, vitriol, speech writers in hyperbolic overdrive delivered with a large dose of patronising claptrap). Indyref 1 was the prototype for the real seismic political shift that’s on its way – the re-boot of the YES movement and the inevitability of Scotland’s independence.
Am surprised to hear Tory Ruthfuhrer happy to give away the sovereign power of her beloved Great Britain,
seems she has ditched the butchers apron and taken up the blue and stars of EU,
or is she just frightened that her England will vote to leave, which will accelerate a call for Indy2 in Scotland,
anyhoo surprised so many so called British Unionists are happy to surrender power to Europe so easily.
And suddenly, sterling is at it’s strongest for eight years and the FTSE 100 is up 3%. Seems like the Banks already know the result of the EU referendum. No surprise there then.
https://www.theguardian.com
Manandboy… It will be rigged to around 57% to 43% remain. Give or take a few tenths.
Phronesis
I turned off the debate tonight after about 10 minutes and went back in to work instead.
Is this not what we want? Big issues being discussed by politicians using soundbites in front of a massive audience with Dimbleby in charge of proceedings?
It certainly seems to be what they THINK we want… or rather what they WANT us to want.
Politics as a spectator sport- with a group of hand picked expert commentators on hand sitting part from, even above the audience.
I almost got accosted by a Remain campaigner today at the kirkgate which would have been my first interaction with the formal campaigns.
Village Hall political meetings, mass participation and engagement on the issues has been non existent up here this time round- maybe somewhere in England that kind of true democratic engagement has occurred.
I guess as long as the establishment can control the means of debate they can control the argument.
They saw something that scared the shit out of them in the indyref and they have been very careful to avoid the risk of another outbreak of democratic grassroots engagement or actual takeover of the process as we say in 2014
Cheers for that Brian. For sure, 10 plus percentage points is necessary for credibility. It will be interesting to read the body language and to witness all the acting which will be necessary when the result is announced and when various political leaders are asked for their reaction to the result. It’s a terrible shame that the majority of the electorate are completely taken in by it all.
However, on this occasion I do wonder how the ‘leave’ voters will react in those areas of England where immigration is a big issue. If England is the powder keg which I think it may be, then Cameron is in for a shock, as a lot of frustration and resentment, built up over the past few weeks, and even longer, may spill over.
I think it will be closer 53% to 47% (remain obvs) unless something dramatic happens…like the Queen intervening and maybe some ‘suggestion’ that she may actually have her doubts about remaining in the EU.
Curiously I did wonder what the Establishment wanted, think may just have received an answer. (and yes I’m aware this was ‘quashed’ by the royal whatever’s nonetheless it is a front page intervention on the Express’s part, 1 day before the ref. The leaver’s will take it as a ‘sign’, much like the No voters had to ‘think carefully’ before voting…)
‘One wonders’ whether Boris can expect some purring in his ear doon the phone on Friday morning.
http://archive.is/9orYe
In Englandshire it would seem that the folk there are confused as to Ruth Davidsons mighty position in Scottish politics
They’re under the impression that the folk who voted Tory at the last election actually voted FOR the Tories and NOT as we know in Scotland that it was a right wing Labour vote AGAINST the SNP lent to the Tories because their own Labour party sucks
One wonders where they think the Labour vote went to
I suppose it’ll be amusing at the next election when that protest vote vanishes and the Tories go back to exactly where they were in the first place, or who knows maybe even worse
Most of that will depend on this Thursdays supervote though, remain or leave, either result is destined for disaster and danger for Scotland
Neither side of the Blue and Red Tory English campaign for domination is going to thank us for anything and punishment is sure to follow especially if it’s leave
I don’t see it ending well at all
Hark the Herald:
As reported earlier, the appetite for Auntie’s shortbread has almost disappeared.
The new BBC Scotland head of news, Gary Smith, has announced the end of the programme as part of a raft of fresh changes to the news output at the corporation north of the border.
Scotland 2016, shown on BBC 2, will cease at the end of this year, after losing out in the ratings war with STV’s Scotland Tonight, which has an average audience of 85,000 compared to the BBC show’s 35,000.
“Scotland 2016 has struggled to find an audience since it was launched in the run up to the independence referendum,” he said.
“Extending it into 2015 was the right thing to do because of the interest in politics between the referendum and the general election.
“Since then its audience has fallen and it is in a difficult spot, it is up against the established STV show and on Thursday’s, Question Time.”
The show will run until the end of this year and its replacement will still be primarily about politics, he said.
The Big Debate, a BBC Radio Scotland discussion programme hosted by Gordon Brewer on Friday afternoons, is also to be taken off airwaves along with a Saturday morning business show.
Sorry lost my archive link page: 🙁
So that’s why Ruthie disappeared from Scotland for over a week. She was in training for her debut at Wembley. I believe the English media were impressed with her. It doesn’t take much. Arise lady Ruth of Sweatysock.
I think you are right manandboy, I think the fallout from the EU Ref is going to make George Square look like a Sunday School Picnic.
https://caltonjock.com/2016/06/21/jo-cox-her-favoured-white-helmets-why-does-it-take-an-australian-female-peace-activist-to-reveal-the-truth/
Please just vote Remain for the many benefits the EU gives to Scotland that Westminster doesn’t.
I was impressed with Ruth Davidson tonight;she done such a good job in 2014, and rallying the Yoons thereafter, that she has brought down to London to play on a bigger stage.
She will be our Prime Minister in 20 or 30 years time.
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/referendum-countdown-how-marginalising-the-centre-created-a-majority-for-brexit/
Jist a wee aside
Papko says:
22 June, 2016 at 12:26 am
I was impressed with Ruth Davidson tonight;she done such a good job in 2014, and rallying the Yoons thereafter, that she has brought down to London to play on a bigger stage.
She will be our Prime Minister in 20 or 30 years time.
I thought she was just the usual stuffed shirt, sound bite, low info, usual toryboy bombast. Also usual sneaky creepy BBC camera work, always working to make her not look too bad, in certain angles. BBC camera angle tricks are really grating though. Its way too close to the kind of stuff dramatist use except this isn’t meant to be drama. A sleazy more and more desperate political outfit, right to the bitter end.
Hear a thought. Maybe an EU au revoir is set for the England part of the vote after all.. has the process begun already, sea bellow..
Remember, the EU crest on your driving license photocard is now being automatically removed and replaced with a UJ flag (as and when renewed.) What next, the EU crested reggey plates on your car to be mandatorily replaced with a..
Lettuce see if a pattern emerges on Friday morn.
Let us also see if some new kind of “EVEL (Version 2)” is unleashed on Friday morn too. It happened to us after our last referendum, who’s to say it won’t happen again.
Get that positive counteractive vote out tomorrow Scotland!
@Heid
I agree with what you say about camera angles, it must be over 10 years ago , when I first started noticing it, and don t recall it before.
Your right it is more befitting to drama.
That’s the whole point, its sold as entertainment, QT, The Daily Politics, its all spiced up, pre arranged and played to the gallery.
Ruth Davidson has learned nothing from indyref. She gave it full-on FUD tactics in that debate, at one point saying that unless you are “100%” certain about leaving then you should vote Remain. That is the worst kind of argument. I want to see a Remain vote, but if people are persuaded by the arguments for Leave then trying to hoodwink them into voting Remain by appealing to emotional uncertainty about change is dishonest and will eventually backfire. I believe many people voted No with a heavy heart in 2014 and then resented the unionist politicians who created the climate of fear and negativity. The vast majority of these politicians got a bloody nose in the next two elections.
So keep it up, Ruth. We’ll get our Remain, and Project Fear Mark II will reap a whirlwind. Though I fear the whirlwind down south could be more sinister than just giving dishonest politicians their jotters.
@ me earlier
Oops, that ‘oot’ above disney sound right in this context does it, allow me to fix that for myself..
Get that positive counteractive vote happenin’ tomorrow Scotland!
Vote Rema In, to be sure, to be sure.
That’s better 🙂
In between all the shouting and constant references to experts, who can magically tell how what the outcome of future negotiations will be, Ruth Davidson mentioned how there should be a serious discussion about immigration. No kidding. If the parties had had not buried their heads in the sand over this and pretended it wasn’t an issue you probably would not have the powder keg that exists now. A powder keg that I hope goes boom. It is not racist to have concerns about immigration.
I find it incredible that when so many politicians admit that immigration is the number one thing they hear about when they knock on doors and are taking surgeries that they would just ignore it. In my opinion I think the main problem with immigration is that of Eastern Europeans and the sheer number of them. That is the problem. Countries like Poland, Bulgaria and Romania etc should not be allowed freedom of movement until they are able to pay their citizens a decent wage. The wages in these countries is an absolute disgrace, no wonder they seek better opportunities elsewhere. The problem is that means the UK ends up with a lot of bumf. Never mind low skills a lot of them have no skills. It’s a shame but you can’t fit two arses into one pair of panties. You have to have controls. You have to have limits. Take in the skilled and reject the dregs. You have to have standards son. When you hear stories about people in the UK moving to work and live in other EU countries they’re not talking about Eastern European countries. Not unless people like working for buttons. Countries that pay their own citizens such a pittance should be punished and yet Poland seems to be doing quite well from the EU.
That is just one area of the EU that is wrong but the truth is the whole of the EU project stinks like a bag full of assholes. It cannot be reformed even if there was a genuine will to reform it. Even an independent Scotland would find it had very little influence in the undemocratic EU. What is in the best interests of Scotland may not be in the interests of other member states.
I want Scottish independence but I cannot vote to stay in an EU that I believe is corrupt. I can’t do it. This might be my only chance to vote on this issue in my lifetime. I am not passing that up for slim chance that the SNP, who could not even be bothered to have a debate on the EU, might engineer a second indy ref from certain conditions. I mean how does it work? What numbers are we talking about if the rest of the UK votes to leave and Scotland votes to stay? How many people need to vote remain in Scotland for this plan to work? Are the SNP going to act if it is less than 60%? You can understand why they would not want to be pinned down on a number by the media but I need more than this to go on.
Tough one, Stu; This response will have to be in two parts. This first about trans-national issues, and the second about local ones.
So firstly… you disqualify what to me is the most powerful argument, that choosing to vote Leave means abandoning the right to vote within Europe. Here’s the problem with being so flippant about that though; Much as this website doesn’t like to hear the argument, I would still argue that we’re in the twilight years of the Nation State. As an idea, it’s not that old anyway, maybe a few hundred years, if that and it develops out of the practical realities of power projection and governance rather than any sort of idealistic or romantic drives. But the Nation State is no longer an easy fit for the modern world; too large for the very narrow interest groups modern communications allow us to form, and too small to tackle the sheer power and complexity of challenges such as climate change, international finance or media moguls.
The EU is itself one of those Too Large challenges, indeed somewhat developed in response to macro issues itself; and neither England alone nor Independent Scotland is going to be able to negotiate on anything like an equal footing with it if we leave.
And what kind of EU will we be negotiating from a smaller position with? I had to do a tonne of research to tease out these details, so it’s not surprising people are confused. But let’s focus on your worries about what happened to Greece as an example; it’s worth taking note of what made up the Troika during that crisis. In particular, every country is has a representative on the European Commission, nominated by the national Government. Notice it states;
If any country fails to ratify the decisions they take collectively, the plan dies.
Oh, so the UK representative must have voted for it. Who was he? Jonathon Hill, Conservative Party.
On a whim I had a look at who your MEPs were; looks like Bath is in the same area as me, so it’s 2 UKIP, 2 Conservative, 1 Labour and 1 Green sent there from this part of the world. Already looks rather a lot like the make up of the Brexit camp, doesn’t it? So why are they complaining about Europe when we’ve largely already elected them to run it?
Because they’re playing the larger game; they assume that at the European scale, they’ve already won. Note the Commission Majority is a weird coalition of one neo-con grouping (EPP), one neo-liberal, of which the Lib Dem MEPs are part (ALDE) and one Socialist alliance… including our chums New Labour (S&D). The Tories are actually in opposition (the ECR group), but what does it matter when the main block is also right wing, and they hold the Commission veto? This is why UKIP and the Tories are able to grandstand so much, it doesn’t matter.
However. The EU, with it’s pesky socialists who do occasionally vote on their principles, does still get in the way somewhat of their great plans to be declared ruler of and then loot this country silly. And besides, the great and good can always make use of the trans-national powers of finance and media to shift their money where ever they like. They won’t be bound by the laws any nation or otherwise sets. So from a purely personal point of view, the UK leaving the EU is win-win. The EU will likely stay neo-friendly, whilst they get all of the benefits local power.
And you, the still-too-small member of a broken, alienated, divided state, will just have to take it. No more European Court of Human Rights for you.
You can change that though, if you stay within Europe. You would still have a vote. If a left wing government wins here, you can have a different nomination for the EC. We could have vetoed the Greek austerity demands. We can vote in MEP elections and change the balance of the Parliament.
Or you can vote Leave, and it’ll move even further to the right too; and we’ll still get looted silly at the local level.
Speaking of which, post No.2… local issues!
So then; As a Scot Nat in Bath, how would I approach the Referendum?
Firstly, tactical voting in general is probably out. The polls are too close to call, especially because the “I’m not admitting it, but I’m going to be a wanker in the privacy of the polling booth” factor is really up in the air now the debate is so toxic and people are being killed for it. Are people that wankerish?
I fear so, and combine that with 150,000 of the young voters who would vote Remain are off to Glastonbury soon and may just not get around to actually voting, my own sense, sadly, is that the poison is too deep and I think it’ll be a vote out.
But I’m not sure, so I don’t have a clue how my vote would possibly help tip the result. All I can decide is what message I want to send. And to be honest, as a Scot Nat in Bath, you’re not going to be appearing in any post-result analysis. You’re just too much of an outlier. So what will be the narrative?
Well, Bath is a Tory swing seat, from the Lib Dems. What ever the Referendum result, people are going to be looking at the swing voters to explain it. In particular, the post-Referendum Tory party will be positioning itself based around its sense of where the new, or majority of Tory voters broke; Cameron can win the referendum but could still be out, and Boris in, if all the swing voters went for Leave simply because Boris is seen as closer to the future of the party.
So… you have to balance two questions; will my vote swing England to vote Leave, whilst Scotland votes Remain, and will this lead to independence for Scotland?
And if you agree it is likely that by adding support to the message of Leave I am increasing the chances of an even further-right Tory party, and a buffonish one at that, do I value Independence above what that will do to the rest of the UK? And will that help Independent Scotland when I’ll be ensuring we have to negotiate with an even more vicious England?
My own feeling would be it makes more sense to vote Remain, presume it won’t have much impact on the final vote tally, but if that is indeed a vote for Brexit, I’d be doing much more for Scotland, and the UK (which Scotland still may not escape from easily) by sending a message from New Tory Bath that you aren’t all virulent wankers… better the Cameron wing appears popular, either for the UK you may be stuck in, or the rUK you’ll have to negotiate with, than you appear to support wankerism.
Not exactly a stimulating moral outcome, but it’s perhaps the only one you’re going to be noticed for taking I’m afraid.
McObycyeck @ 2.03
Can ye tell me who it is ye think the SNP would debate with?
Since ye say Yir an independence supporter can I assume that only democratically elected representatives are appropriate?
Nae unelected polemics would do.
So I ask again typing very slowly who would represent leave here.
My heart is broken, my heart is broken, sorrow, sorrow.
Scotland 2016 is being pulled.
All those Herald, Record, and Evening Times Churnos who planned a house extension, a trip of a lifetime to The Great Wall, or put a deposit on a little pied-a-terre in La Belle France, will be gutted.
No more guaranteed income stream from their mates at Pacific Quay. ‘Rhubarb custard, rhubarb custard(q.v., The Goons.), SNP Bad. Money for Nothing and your croissants for free.
I challenge the 35,00 viewers figure.
Every now and again I pop in on line, then swiftly back out again, as Ms Joffre reads an agenda which is more or less a rerun of Reporting Unionist Scotland’s 6.30 cheap trash.
NHS waiting times, the Attainment Gap, the Forth Road Bridge fiasco, the SNP, not Ruth and her Tory WM pals are cutting LA funding, and so on. Drip drip drip. It’s all the SNP’s fault.
WE don’t have Chief Executives and Management Teams in Health, Education, or Local Authority Administration.
They are exempt according to Pacific Quay.
We don’t have enough GPs and Consultants in the NE because of the BAD SNP.
And they wonder why nobody’s listening any more.
Good riddance, I say.
It’s gonna be awfie crowded when Brian Taylor leads a discussion on failed Waiting Times with the Unionist Clan on Reporting Unionist Scotland. A dozen or so devoted Unionists all pitching in with their newspaper’s version of SNP Bad.
Why is it dragging on for another 6 months?
‘Hang on a minute, just to be clear, what you are saying, is that the SNP are really really Bad?
And the Earth moved. (For Whom the Bell Tolls.)
Meanwhile the BBC completely re-writes Scottish history by prominently declaring that Lord Wallace of Wankerness was First Minister of Scotland!
“Serving First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has come together with her predecessors Alex Salmond, Jack McConnell, Henry McLeish and Jim Wallace to call for a Remain vote…”
Thankfully, I must have slept thru that particular nightmare.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36587407
McObycyeck @ 2.03
In my opinion I think the main problem with immigration is that of Eastern Europeans and the sheer number of them.
Based on the 2011 Census less than 1% of Scotland’s population were from EU members joined after 2001 which is all your “sheer number of Eastern Europeans.”
Compare that to the 4% from outside the EU, or as an Independence supporter how about the 8.5% English born living here. I presume you have no issues getting rid of all the “dregs” from those groups either?
I also hope you have enough Scots on hand to fill in all the jobs that those missing “dregs” won’t be doing.
Now there’s an idea that westminster could look at (chokes with hilarity thinking of the tories doing it)
The Dutch parliament is set to ban bosses from taking a bonus from bankrupted firms. Labour MP Jeroen Recourt is expected to win a vote on Tuesday for a law to stop companies using bankruptcy to sack staff then restart under a new name with cheaper workers, reports NOS. Employees will have an official role in influencing how the bankruptcy of their employer is handled, and must be represented before, during and after the business failure. The new proposals should replace the current 1893 law, which only defends creditors, and will also prevent the leaders of a failed firm from taking a bonus. ‘This will mean an end to this scandalous practice,’
At the risk of sounding like a niaive do-gooder the thing about being an EU citizen is that you are not stigmatised by your intelligence, background, or poverty. A poor Pole, or an Albanian with a large family has the same status as a European citizen as you or I.
If you ban the proletariat from emigrating, but say it’s fine for the wealthy or better educated to move freely, then what kind of instability and social engineering are you afflicting on that country?
The whole concept behind Europe is a common market place. That’s a place where in principle you can move around from place to place and the cost of living will not be making some areas a dead zone while other areas are flooded with good time opportunists. The ERM is a preparatory period for a non Euro currency to seek to align its currency with the Euro so there isn’t an exchange rate to destabilise trading and reward profiteering.
The problems arise when new countries join Europe, and the access opens a window of opportunity for disadvantaged people to move to areas of greater opportunity. The resulting migration isn’t the problem, it is the symptom of the problem. The problem is the instability in the donor country and why its population feels compelled to leave. Surely in Scotland of all places we can get our heads around people being forced to leave their homes and seek new lives abroad, and the resulting “brain drain” where Scotland’s best export is its children. Once it starts it’s devilishly difficult to stop and your country bleeds such important talent.
We need to see past the short term immediacy of the people, and tackle the problems of whichever country needs help to have an economy which can support its own population. If you want Europe to work, there will be pain along the way, but that’s what it’s going to take. It’s worth it!
At its very essence, the economic migration of European labour is no different from the economic migration of well healed Southerners moving North to capitalise of the casino enhanced value of their property down South which affords them the pick of the best property in the North with a substantial windfall to live on thrown into the bargain. To alleviate that pressure and the instability it creates, you cannot inflate house prices in North anymore than you can depress profiteering in the South. If you have diligent grown up government, unlike the UK, you seek to address the economic dispararity that is the root cause of it.
We live in a broken UK which is a rich country, but has its wealth distribution at criminal extremes, and doesn’t give people the opportunity to move very far away from the breadline. We also have social support which barely covers the cost of living living cheek by jowl with city types and overpaid civil servants who have more money than they know what to do with and bleat like sheep because their pension isn’t going to be quite as fat as they thought or their house price is stagnating and they might have to hand back tens of thousands in claimed expenses. This in the same city as ATOS are killing people too sick to work but given no choice.
The problem isn’t immigration. The problem is fat greedy UK which wants to enshrine lifelong hand-me-down wealth privilege for some, and suffer its poor and the sick to be fighting for scraps in the street with all comers, and with similar prospects for change. What makes that such a toxic mix is that we are accustomed to having a safety net. Yes, it’s threadbare, but it’s there. Some people see it as money for nothing, and it’s prone to be abused. Last time I heard, it wasn’t just the immigrants trying to get away with that one. Heard about the supermarket which pays token tax and pays its workers so little they qualify for income support? Trust me, that’s a bigger parasite on our backs than some Lithuanian bricklayer and his mate.
Jack Collatin,
I couldn’t help laughing on reading your piece! Very enjoyable. I especially liked the reference to “All those Herald, Record and Evening Times Churnos”. How right. (Not to forget Katie Grant of the Times and Libby Brooks of the Grauniad either.) If they had made a real effort to include a fair selection of non-yoons among the mix, it would have been a different story. But there we are.
Inkall,
Don’t worry, there’s going to be loadsa jobs available if there’s a Brexit, since it’s going to need a veritable army – maybe even a whole country – of civil servants to sort out all the legislation and make all the new bilateral treaties that will be required!
BTW, has anyone else noticed the upsurge of self-proclaimed indy supporters appearing here of late to announce that they truly care and are voting “Leave”? What’s the betting that we’ll never hear from any of them again after Thursday…?
Breeks,
Good post.
I would add that migrants from new poorer member states send or take money back home which boosts their home economy and speeds the economic equalisation of the respective countries.
@Rock says: 21 June, 2016 at 8:37 pm:
” … Robert Peffers’ version of ancient history has zero relevance for today’s struggle for Scottish independence.”
Aye! Rock, you are correct that the true legal situation is not the perceived view and is irrelevant today in spite of all the legal evidence being provable and well documented.
The reason is the bloody clowns and congenital idiots exactly like you who meekly accept the Westminster Establishments propaganda as the stone cold truth.
If the people like you in Scotland were to actually have a backbone, and more than a single brain cell, they would question every instance of the abuse of the English language used by the Establishment and its propaganda wing and expose the lies they have absolutely no evidence to back up.
This morning, just a few minutes ago, the BBC trotted out, “The Boris”, and among his first utterances of pure shite was the usual pish!, ” … this country could stop the immigrants”, .
First of all those claimed, “immigrants”, are really mainly refugees. In the second place country of, “The Boris”, is England as the UK is a Kingdom and is composed of four individual countries. No one questioned what Boris had said and so it is taken as accepted by all.
The point is that, if challenged to prove his claims, “The Boris”, could not back up his lies with proofs while the challengers could prove he was telling lies.
Now we have Cameron on, ” … we could save jobs up and down the country”, and again Cameron’s country is England”. Now Cameron has just said, “Britain is a great Country”, but Britain has eight countries – again there will be no challenges.
In other words numpties like you, Rock, just roll over, like wee cowed dogs who have had the will to fight beaten out of them.
” … After 300 years, Scotland is still a colony, confirmed by the No vote of 2014.”
First of all it is 309 years since the Treaty of Union and secondly the Scottish referendum does not alter the legal situation of Scotland’s true legal position as an equally sovereign signatory in the bi-partite Treaty of Union.
That alteration can only be brought about by the legally sovereign people of Scotland NOT meekly accepting the Westminster Establishment’s propaganda. The way to reverse that propaganda is to challenge every instance of their misuse of the terms they have used.
Anyone can see the lies in such statements as, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.
Why then do they go along with the equally obvious lies of calling the UK , “Britain”, “The Country”, or simply, “Great Britain”, for it is those abuses of terms that has instilled, in not only the average ill informed people of Scotland but also has ingrained in the peoples of England that England, Britain and Great Britain are all interchangeable terms.
Why do you imagine Cameron can manage to squeeze in so many such lies within the same paragraph every time he opens his mouth? It is because it has worked for the Establishment for every one of those 309 years.
And, “Rock”, not only accepts their lies he regularly posts on Wings and defends the abuse. Just whose side are you really on?
That is the only thing that matters for the way forward.
@Jack Collatin
An admirably concise and accurate summary of Pacific Quay’s Scotchland programme.
Mind when Pippa, Poppy and Pru were imported from BBC Oxbridge up here to be ‘trained’ in a weal life situation in our referendum? Worryingly, it now may be too embarrassing for them to use the Scotchland programme on their CVs when they apply for jobs as Marr’s tea wallahs.
To be fair, this referendum has benn forced on us by the utter failure of our immigration experiment, for years we have had over a million and a half economic migrants completely refusing to assimilate, they won’t learn the language, insisting on their own food, and restaurants, siting about all day and being a drain on the local health services. Yes lets apologise right now to Europe, and bring the Brits abroad back home, because I for one can’t wait to see their grettin faces, and the Spanish will be glad to get their country back!
Still undecided or voting out? I read this by a disabled activist – powerful stuff of the implications of an out vote for all those with a disability. Many of us on here are or will be affected by this issue whether now, in the future, ourselves or our relatives.https://graniteandsunlight.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/undecided-voters-and-people-not-planning-on-voting-at-all-please-please-read-this-first/
Titler
I live not far from Bath. I’d love to see an independent Scotland. Having read your weird post I’m none the wiser and will be sending 2x leave votes into the polling station.
Best news for a long time but they did the damage.
BBC Scotland cancels Scotland 2016 after losing late-night news show battle
Powerful stuff there Terry @ 8:30
“The old joke applies: a Tory Minister, a disabled person and an immigrant are sat at a table, and they are brought a cake sliced into 12 pieces. The Tory takes 11 of them, then tells the disabled person to ‘Watch out for that immigrant, he’s trying to take your bit of cake.’
very bad man
“The old joke applies: a Tory Minister, a disabled person and an immigrant are sat at a table, and they are brought a cake sliced into 12 pieces. The Tory takes 11 of them, then tells the disabled person to ‘Watch out for that immigrant, he’s trying to take your bit of cake.’
Any takers on the odds of Same trusted Yoon faces and majority yoon voices / guests appearing on any new 2016 formats ?
Grant / Clegg / Gardham etc (No I didn’t think so !
If they send Ms Joffre back to previous job that will be a start though. Annoying delivery.
Dr Scott Arthur complaining in Scotsman about folk being shouted down during Indy referendum!
@Breeks says:
22 June, 2016 at 8:47 am
Come on! A tory sitting at the same table as a disabled person and an immigrant? Never going to happen. Funny though!
One thing that has impressed me about this referendum , in fact the only thing , is the media split ,some for leave some for stay.
Wouldn’t it have been good to have at least one media outlet on the side of YES. No rabid constant carping , manipulation and lies ,Yes sweet reason and truth. Aaah!
According to several media outlets , the telegraph and spectator both cover the Oor Lizzies apparent support for Leave.
FT today-
High street banks told to stockpile cash in case of Brexit
Regulator orders preparations in case of bank run after a Leave vote in EU referendum
High-street banks are stockpiling cash for Friday under orders of the financial regulator, in case a vote to leave the EU prompts mass withdrawals.
US funds cut exposure to UK equities amid Brexit fears
Portfolio adjustments reinforce view of groups’ short-term approach
US-based equity investors have pulled out of the UK at a faster pace than their British-based rivals in a sign that the threat of Brexit is driving a shift in ownership of the UK stock market.
Rancid The Graun piddles all over us today-
“In Scotland’s devolved government in Edinburgh, the ruling Scottish National party (SNP) is widely suspected of gaming the campaign to secure a second referendum on independence north of the border.”
No mention of UKOK’s 2014 vote YES and you’re EU gone anywhere either. We voted to stay in this safe, secure, brilliantly run union, then get crapped on for the privilege.
@Robert Peffers 8.05
I like hearing these nuggets of constitutional artillery being fired off, but the difficulty I have is hearing the resulting ‘thump’ from any impact.
If these articles, principles and legislation do exist in the shadows to protect our rights, then why doesn’t our legal fraternity or government sponsor an audit of these articles to avoid us all engaging in a struggle to overturn something which is already inapplicable?
I keep repeating the precedent set by the AXA vs Lord Advocate case, and while it seems like a drum nobody wants to beat, I have a niggling curiosity to learn why AXA were moved to lodge the case in the first place, and equally, why the Lord Advocate was moved to defend a solitary principle but then do nothing further beyond establishing that benchmark principle. Can it be the Lord Advocate must be challenged first before he defends Scottish principle? Surely not?
MrObycyek at 2.03
Do you live in Scotland? I see no sign of any knowledge of Scotland in your slimy post.
Without immigration Scotland’s population would be below the 1910 figures. Emigration has been our problem. Emigration in reasonable numbers is no bad thing. It is the way of the world. Ambitious and imaginative people always go in numbers to new lands and new opportunities.
The world is full of Scots emigrants. But a direct result of the removal of decision making from our country has meant that our best and ablest have always got to leave because the opportunities to reach the top of the tree have all moved away from our country.
We have no Eastern European immigration problem. We have hard working Eastern Europeans with their families and their children filling our schools. We have no Asian immigration problem. We have probably the hardest working sector in our economy made up of Asian immigrants (who mostly vote for Scottish independence).
We do have a huge influx of immigrants – 480,000 I think is the figure – from England, not far short of 10% of our population who are mostly economically non active and without children. They are to be congratulated for wanting to come to live out their retirements in a better place.
But there are consequences -in the housing market for instance or our small rural businesses – where local Scots cannot match their buying power and are being forced out of the housing markets and out of their communities.
This is a growing problem we will have to address. But carefully, because they are mostly very nice people with no desire to be other than good citizens and good neighbours.
Phronesis: I like your eloquent optimism @ 10.37pm.
Inkall: those are stats we should all remember.
Breeks: well said.
And Jack Collatin and Andrew McLean: you are both very naughty boys.
Right, off to weed the garden. Every stone I turn over reminds me of Boris and Krew.
And can I be the first to say, “Aye, the nights are fair drawin’ in!”?
@Andrew McLean 8.30 – great post 🙂
http://www.jkrowling.com/en_GB/#/timeline/on-monsters-villains-and-the-EU-referendum
. I love having these mulitple allegiances and cultural associations. They make me stronger, not weaker. I glory in association with the cultures of my fellow Europeans. My values are not contained or proscribed by borders. The absence of a visa when I cross the channel has symbolic value to me. I might not be in my house, but I’m still in my hometown. ”
Cant write or spell. Wish I’d voted Leave now. Another display of how any chancer can hit the jackpot but its a change from this kind of Project Fearing she vomited over us 2014
“I’ve NEVER ACTUALLY heard it said BUT WILL LIE ANYWAY that ‘we’ve got to leave, because they’ll punish us if we don’t’, but my guess is that if we vote to stay, we will be in the heady position of the spouse who looked like walking out, but decided to give things one last go. All the major political parties are currently wooing us with offers of extra powers, keen to keep Scotland happy so that it does not hold an independence referendum every ten years and cause uncertainty and turmoil all over again.
I doubt whether we will ever have been more popular, or in a better position to dictate terms, than if we vote to stay.”
If remain win on Thursday any betting on how long it will be before we hear “that’s the last EU referendum for a generation” and of course a generation will be clearly defined as a minimum of 25 year. So sod off sweaties!
Dave M H. My sister lives in Guernsey, has done for 2 years now. She has been living in work accommodation but is moving to a new job so has to flat share. She has to get a licence to do so. Could certain areas of Scotland adopt a similar scheme to protect housing places for locals?
This whole campaign has been an indyref tribute act right enough. I am just waiting now on a bookie paying out early now for the full house. 🙂
Insight of a toryboy’s toryboy
alexmassie ?@alexmassie 10h10 hours ago
People often forget that the Scottish Daily Mail is not at all the same as the mother edition down in London.
Its probably like BBC and BBC vote SLab Scotland and “not at all the same as the mother edition down in London”
@Almannysbunnet
You’ll also notice, no one has asked that question of any campaign leader yet?
Maybe the rules are different for some folks? 😉
Everytime to you look, it gets UKOK madder
alexmassie ?@alexmassie 12h12 hours ago
alexmassie Retweeted Ladbrokes Politics
A sucker bet if ever there was one.alexmassie added,
Ladbrokes Politics @LadPolitics
Ladbrokes: Money streaming in for @RuthDavidsonMSP to be next Tory leader. #BBCDebate
Ruth MacThatcher’s got to crush the vile seps first, before she can leave her scotland region safe and secure under the control of the neighbour
alexmassie ?@alexmassie 12h12 hours ago
6. For a Scots Tory, fighting the SNP is more important than beating Labour.
7. Rebuilding Unionism is a 10 year project.
8. That matters.
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alexmassie ?@alexmassie 12h12 hours ago
1. She’d need to want it (she doesn’t)
2. She’d need a seat
3. Which means leaving Scotland
4. Where she has a big job
5. Which ain’t done
I wonder if, in the event of a Leave vote, and the catastrophic predictions of Project Fear don’t happen, more Scots will be able to laugh off the next Project Fear in Indyref2?
Future Project Fears could lose all credibility.
Further right you go into toryboy UKOK land, the harder they lie
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 14m14 minutes ago
i sketched ruth v bo-jo for the scottish daily mail.
Toryboy says BoJo and Ruth have stellar careers based on appealing to those who don’t normally support conservatives.
this year, UK tory gov got about a quarter of electoral vote and Ruth MacThatcher even less.
Watch Davidson reach for the stars.
From humble beginnings (well, sort of…) she’s now doing Wembley, raising the rafters, giving Bojo a damn good shirricking with her swagger-stick, muscling her way onto the Euro-stage.
There’s no stopping her now.
You deserve the Ruth!
I can’t shake off the idea that while David Cameron is still in the captain’s seat, the steering wheel has become completely detached.
Uninhibited screaming, with an array of expletives, will start throughout England quite soon, probably starting early on Friday morning – from one side or the other. Just as soon as the consequences of whichever result dawn. Other areas of the UK may similarly be affected but to a lesser degree.
At that point, the rivets in the hull of HMS Brittania will start popping and minds will be concentrated on survival.
Nothing can stop it now. Good luck to everyone.
As for Ruthie, the idea that she is Mgt. Thatcher reborn has already been sown in the collective mind of the Tory Party. With such a gene she will need nothing else to ensure she reaches No 10.
Back to the future.
Watched a bit of last night’s ‘debate’….brought back to mind the ‘world of Sport’ prog with the ‘Wrestling’ which came on around 4pm. My Granny loved it…good guys versus bad guys throwing each other around a ring in faux combat in front of a bellowing mob of dumb punters.
Really is not Bojo nothing more than Adrian Street pirouetting clumsily around the ‘Leave’? whilst Ruthie playing the part of a pugnacious Steve Logan or Mick McManus for remain?
At the end of the performance, don’t they all back slap have a few round of drinks and have a laugh at the antics of the ‘mob’?
An interesting read.
http://derekbateman.scot/2016/06/22/academics-not-entirely-useless-shock/#comment-101270
Against my better judgement, I stayed up late to watch the debate on the iPlayer.
Ruth has clearly been honing her speech for Wembley. That explains her disappearance from the studios of BBC Scotland recently.
Britain’s got talent and it’s called Ruth. She is the only one on stage who has worn a uniform you know. All the Chiefs of Staff of every tin-pot service say “Remain”. Ruth listens to the right people.
Bojo bumbled on about immigrants, cheered to the rafters. Sadiq Khan also received enthusiastic cheers and his soundbite “Not Project Fear – more Project Hate” (or similar) will be the takeaway for the Ins.
Frances O’Grady for the TUC made the point that the Brexiteers had received £600,000 from the BNP. Boris averrred that that was a little old lady in her 80s who didn’t realise she was in the BNP (but clearly had a healthy bank balance).
Gisela Stuart tried to be the voice of caring brexit (she’s a mother and grandmother after all) and Andrea Leadsom, also a mother, stuck to the mantra “take back control”.
A knockabout night with much cheering and no debate. The massed ranks of journos coralled in a studio somewhere had very little to say that I can recall. Perhaps I fell asleep at that point. But the media will be awash with it today I expect.
Thank god it’s over.
The Internet is on fire this morning with the usual buzz words to focus minds I. E.Tradition, Democracy,Control, Monarchy, Loyalty,Queen.
It is amazing how people revert to stereotype in times of stress. I get the feeling that England especially, is slowly adopted an “Armada” mentality with a touch of
Churchillian “We shall fight them on the beaches” thrown in for good measure.
Whatever the outcome ,I cannot see England, or this Union ever being the same again. It is, to all intents and purposes, over.
The final nail in the coffin would be Scots voting an “in “majority ,no matter how slim.
Bojo, many years ago, had a blog. Can’t remember what it was called, but the title and design imagery was all about the Crusades etc. (It would be interesting to see it again – anyone know how to find a link? We’re talking, oooh, a decade-plus ago.)
Boris The Johnson (for it is he) certainly knows where his loyalties lie, and Lizzie’s innocent dinner chat will have emboldened him further. When the plebs and immigrants start storming the palace gates he’ll be there to smite them with the trusty sword of truth etc…
The Corryvrecan of Scottish politics is Scottish independence. It is an irresistible force which is drawing everything into it. No matter how hard it tries what is left of Scottish Labour will be sucked in the near future and the Tories (who always figure out where the future looks best for them) will come to an accommodation when that becomes necessary to protect their own interests.
Tea-break.
I suspect the U.K. will be an even more dysfunctional place by Friday, but Ruthie will still be bouncing around shouting, “Look at me! Look at me!” like a Duracell bunny with skitters. She certainly doesn’t lack confidence, though I fear she is the classic case of ambition exceeding talent or ability. And, as we all know up here, behind all that Jill-the-Lass faux bonhomie, there is a very unpleasant personality well suited to the amorality of the sociopaths in charge of the Tory party.
O/T but all part of our problem with The Establishment, don’t bother about Chilcott if you want the truth. Hearten unto the wise words of Craig:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/not-chilcot-report/
Here’s rare footage of Bojo with partner Dusty Broom, up the junction, saving London from Anarchists several years ago.
Vote Leave, get him as PM, and force your weans to endure similar stunts on a regular basis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fgapIFUTVI
Hearken not hearten.
And here’s CM again on our topic.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk
With every day that passes and the more I watch these varying coloured Tories slugging it out on our TVs the more I get the feeling we’re all being had and there’s some machiavellian Tory plot secreted away in a hidey hole ready to be whipped out after whatever result happens which they probably all know about anyway
All through Ruth the truth’s shoutiness at Boris I couldn’t shake the feeling that the minute it’s all over they’d be congratulating themselves at conning the Nation once again and that this is all designed to keep Tories of the Blue variety at the forefront again
Once again during all this Broo Ha Ha the Labour party under the late Jeremy Corbyn have been about as effective as Willie Rennie on a slide
So is it that, is it a demonstration of showing how incompetent the Labour party are before whoever takes over the running of the Blue team because if it is it’s probably worked,
Mr and Mrs England are going to find themselves hard pressed to vote for the Red team now after such a miserable showing
Meanwhile in Scotland that’ll leave Kezia just a high pitched whine beyond the range of her own party’s hearing and Ruth the truth will front and centre page all the attention as the new Scottish Thatcher which she will love but of course will lead to her inevitable doom
And after it’s all over will any of us be better off or worse off or does it matter anyway and do we really care
now having lost the will to live listening and looking at them, who, every single one of them is better off than us
@Tinto Chiel –
🙂 Good stuff from CM on EU.
Particularly liked this:
‘…the cleverer rich (ie not Philip Green) have started to realise that if things go on this way, they will be decorating lamp-posts.’
UKIP Councillor, Kent district:
“The only thing I have problems with are negroes. And I don’t know why.”
That just about sums up the level of debate, racist fears stoked up by the Tory right of all political parties.
I cannot shake myself of the feelingn that Kezia Dugdale is a decent lassie who’s got lost up the wrong path and is having difficulty getting onto the right track. That’s what loyalty to political parties and to your colleagues can do.
On the right side with the right message she would be fine. (Ruthie on the other hand makes me grue)
We are a campaign of conversion. Some of the worst sinners ended up the best saints.
re;heedtracker@9.07am
Rancid the graun, they love Scotland, that must be why even in central Edinburgh I see piles of grauns unsold at the end of each day, their weekend version is heavy with even more pap.
The graun, a pretendy lefty rag, had the middle classes, mostly south of the border, but not all, brainwashed into believing that Scotland was not just too wee, poor etc, but that Scots, the YES kind, were selfish, utopian seeking scroungers. Nothing to do with craving a more equal country, with self determination, having been shat on for more than 300 years.
The graun, along with the bbc, was, and is still responsible for the contempt towards Scotland for having the audacity to want to make things better for people. Nope, as far as people south of the border are concerned, those who believed and still believe the crap, Scotland already has it too good, with free prescriptions, no tuition fees, at their expense.
To add to that, Scotland was and is a risk, to them and their status quo.
Just one thing, we have to remember that 16/17 year olds are banned from voting in the EU referendum, that could affect how things go in Scotland? Criminal to exclude them, it’s their future on the line too.
Rev on twitter
Stop leaving a trail for any would be assassin!