Lion lies down with lambs
Posted on
June 17, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
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17 06 16 14:56
Lion lies down with lambs | speymouth
Ignored
With friends like him…
If that was FB, I’d swear he’d been hacked!
It’s a really, really strange day when the only really objectionable part of an article by Alan Massie is the suggestion that the Indy ref was ‘as nasty and divisive as the present EU one.’
The Indy ref really, really, was nothing as nasty as this and no one died.
I really wish I could say that about this one.
Wow
does he remember what he wrote back then? Also somewhat less vitriolic than the anti indy rant
He’s bull-s******g as usual. No way he would vote for indy in a Brexit. He would just suck it up. He’s just playing at raising the stakes.
Is he waking up out of a fantasy dream, or is this some kind of political ploy?
Massie must have been asleep for quite a long time. He thinks Scotland’s Indy referendum was last year.
However, on the topic of Brexit, it’s good to see he’s seen the light at last.
Looks like a job application to me!
Rats like this will increasingly desert Great Engand after Brexit, knowing that an independant Scotland would be on the cards, and their English paymasters will have no further use for them.
And wasn’t indyref two years ago?
The first article was unforgivable, the second is unbelievable.
Maybe he knows something we don’t and is resigned to Brexit. No, scrub that, Massie doesn’t seem to have a clue about anything.
Interesting, though.
Alas, Mr Massie is only Now seeing what many of us saw on the morning of 19th Sept 2014,when “Little England” started. The addition of Farage and Johnson makes it no worse.
Perhaps blinds are beginning at last to fall away from eyes. Interestingly there are many comments from previous no voters who would change their vote in the event of Brexit. Interesting times indeed.
Strange Times indeed.
Just remember that we didn’t lose the Yes ideals or the referendum, in so much as, we re-fuelled the decay of Union. This kept me going after the ‘vote’ and still does.
I don’t really like the guy, but respect due for having the smarts and the courage to come out with this statement. Too few people in political blogging are willing to admit to changing their minds about something.
The death of Jo Cox may prove pivotal:
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-hinge.html
I wouldn’t trust him or any of his kind if he told me shite was brown.
@ Sunniva.
I disagree. And the reason is the quite splendid article he wrote esrlier, which you can read here.
https://web.archive.org/…/blogs.sp…/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/
The first scenario might still come about. Have already voted so can’t change now. Would rather be in the EU than out when we’re still part of the UK. Think the best bet for the rUK’s future prospects is also as a member of the EU.
Regardless of the outcome of this referendum there’s potential for a fundamental shift in circumstances that might lead to indref2. However that’s by no means certain and I wouldn’t pin my hopes on some mad idea of voting Leave whilst hoping for a Remain majority in order to bring that about.
The SNP and Greens both stood on an independence platform. The SNP did so on a mandate to hold a second referendum should circumstances dictate. That doesn’t mean that should the vote be for a Brexit they’ll instantly go for another referendum. It means that if the mood changes and stays changed then they’ll go for one if they think it’ll win. Apparently, according to some parties, dogma should override common sense.
I am with Sunniva. Massey the unionist against Indy.
Frighten Pensioners again
Creeping with the enemy.
Never forget, or forgive.
To quote a certain ex leader of Labour in Scotland ” I’m astonished”!
On a positive note, this vindicates the idea that former No voters are open to change their mind and that the “once in a lifetime” mantra that’s quoted at us independence supporters cannot hold forever!
This man is a journalist and in writing what he does, is in a position to persuade fellow former No voters to the cause of independence!
I’m still “astonished” though!
Did I miss a refurrendum or two? Last time I checked there were 4 countries in the United Kingdom, not just Scotland and England. Details are important, as is respect for Welsh and Northern Irish voters.
I suspect Allan Massie has that appalling “Rivers Of Blood” piece somewhat on his conscience. I remember vividly the utter dismay that overwhelmed me, seeing someone whose serious literary work I’d so much admired descend into the gutter like that. If he’s had a change of heart, I’m only to ready to throw my arms around him, so speak, and kill the fatted calf.
There is no ‘us in Scotland’ when it comes to Massie. he has no part in Scotland, Brexit or otherwise.
Well well well.
– just like that.
This chap put a lot of effort into being a Union wolf. Today he may bleat, tomorrow he’ll be back to howling.
Toryboys eh. From, “But suppose Milliband was so desperate to get into power he was prepared to sup with the devil?”
To, “The English bulldog has awoken from a long sleep and is beginning to snarl.”
Scottish devil, English Bulldogs, rule Britannia. Scottish government’s already negotiated with EU for Scotland;s EU re-application. Such is the state of toryboy Daily Heil world.
Agree with Bob Mack, the smug face of Cameron during his victory speech left me in no doubt
that Scotland would be punished for daring to question England’s superiority, As always.
They wish to stand alone against Europe and expect the EU to submit meekly to “their terms”.
Unaware The EU countries will punish UK as an example that no other member dare hold referendum to leave.
Massie beginning to see a future in a Brexit UK and not liking what he sees . Hopefully more of the talking head journalists will have a similar epiphany .
Mr Massie, get your things together, there’s a car at the door which will drive you to the airstrip where there’s a plane waiting with enough fuel to take you anywhere you want to go.
France is quite nice.
Nasty and divisive?
Mr Massie would know, that’s for certain. He spread his fair share of nastiness, unless it was some other Massie who wrote those other pieces highlighted ATL. For what it’s worth though, those Nationalists he’s so insistent on disliking?
Not entirely sure they’d welcome a vote of any kind from someone who uses a public soapbox to spout fairly incendiary rhetoric on ‘Scots ruling England’ and whose utter misrepresentation of the Scottish Government and wider independence movement endears him so much to those loveable jokesters at the Mail.
Brexit schmexit.
You voted No, you’re British.
Yes(whatever race, creed, colour or duration of residency), you’ve declared you’re Scottish.
End of.
I don’t believe it.
It’s a remain trick/con/lie. Much the same as David Cameron’s words. Desperate.
Allan Johnstone Massie CBE (Tory)
Hypocrite
That is all I have to say about this person
Another one converted. Is this what it takes?
Massie is either thick as shit or a liar.
I’d go with the latter.
It is inconceivable to me that such a yoon poster boy could ever be ‘tempted’ by self governance for Scotland whilst British rule is still the alternative.
He’s kiddin’ naebody
Better late than never I say.
And he won’t be the only ‘Unionist’ suddenly realising what we worked out years ago.
WTF is the matter with these people.
Either their UK Union is great or its not.
We know the answer.
What a numpty Massie shows himself to be.
Thanks Rev for keeping us informed.
Increasingly thinking we won’t even need an IndyRef2. here’s how:
http://www.peacepalacelibrary.nl/2016/06/brexit-countdown-to-a-possible-withdrawal-procedure/
includes the option
“After the Treaty of Lisbon, there’s a special procedure relating to small parts of Member States (or their associated territories) becoming less (or more) connected to the EU”
Sure it wouldn’t be Indy but it would be a big step forward & after what will hopefully soon amount to two votes by Scots in two referenda to stay in the EU all the Yonn guff about respecting the settled will of the people will be on our side.
Fatted calves indeed.
“I disagree. And the reason is the quite splendid article he wrote esrlier, which you can read here.”
Allan Massie != Alex Massie.
Has he seen just how dark his Union is? Or, doing what journalists do for a living- lie?
I have no idea. Time will tell.
If he’s genuine, just perhaps it is an indication that ‘enough is enough’ might be widespread in a Brexit driven IndyRef2. We can hope so.
Even with Brexit, I don’t think much will change,
The EU will come to some accommodation a kind of EU 2.0, in much the same way that the Greek problem has been kicked down the round, and always will be.
@ Martin Richmond
Mr Peffers will be along shortly to give a more comprehensive answer. Meanwhile, potted version: the United Kingdom is the result of a treaty between two kingdoms, Scotland and England. England had already swallowed up Wales and Ireland before the Treaty of Union so they are regarded as within the English kingdom and took no part in signing the Treaty. Hope that is clear.
@Papko,
No,I think you are wrong. There are considerations for the EU ,and NATO, in not allowing Scotland to be a member. They are major logistic and strategic issues which Greece did not have,
The heid is nipping.
More bizarre hand wringing from another media corp that destroyed and continues to destroy democracy in its scotland region
http://archive.is/ck7Ek
“A vote to leave the EU would mean many things. But it would show where too much power still lies in this country. It lies not with parliament, not with democracy, not with social media, but still with a few over-mighty newspapers whose stock in trade, exactly as Baldwin said 85 years ago, is made up of falsehood, misrepresentation and half-truths.”
and The Guardian’s vote NO or else 2014 stuff like this
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bellend4.jpg
Paid by the inch
Simples
You don’t like my principles, I have a bag full of others.
MajorBloodnok says:
17 June, 2016 at 1:38 pm
Better late than never I say.
And he won’t be the only ‘Unionist’ suddenly realising what we worked out years ago.
YES!
Sic a parcel o rogues in a Nation
If his awareness of events and grasp of history is so feeble that he thinks the indyref was last year, (and he refers to it being so more than once) can one trust anything he says?
Anyone think of a good truth or dare we can make him do before he gets to join?
Och! Methinks Mr Massie is just playing the Scottish card and trying to scare English people into voting REMAIN (otherwise they loose the UK). Nobody can say how NO voters will react if such a constitutional crisis (Scotland IN rUK OUT) scenario unfolds. People will say and imagine anything, but until it actually happens, and reality forces the issue, nobody can really say. What we can say, however, is that whatever the result, the UK will be a very different place on Friday morning – changed forever. We don’t have long to wait.
Here is Massie just prior to 2015 GE. DM headline.
The Tartan Stalinists: Forced sales of country estates.Snooping state guardians for every child. Contempt for the wealthy… and Britain. Fantasy? No, it’s the stark reality of an SNP landslide
SNP membership is surging and so is the spiteful abuse of opponents
——————————–
So there is some kind of sudden conversion to common sense and decency? You know, the kind of principles that one holds, that prevents you from using hysterical, hateful rhetoric, lest it be provocative?
The kind of principles a mature adult should hold, that writing in a national rag just might carry some responsibility?
Leopards don’t change their spots unless unemployment beckons in the event of a vote to leave the EU.
He knows he’ll be surplus to requirements with a successful Indyref2.
He helped secure the 10% for No with his “untruths”.
He can reap what he’s sown. I’m not fooled by his apparent conversion.
Papko says:
17 June, 2016 at 1:49 pm
Even with Brexit, I don’t think much will change,
The EU will come to some accommodation a kind of EU 2.0, in much the same way that the Greek problem has been kicked down the round, and always will be.
Its probably the end of the Cameron PMship. Osborne will be toast and what replaces them will almost certainly have to contend with a contracting Brexit UK economy, meaning much more austerity and recession. What this new toryboy regime will do its scotland region is anyone’s guess but it wont be good. Barnett’s under perpetual cuts as it is now.
Of the many many great lies toryboy Brexiteers have been spreading in their scotland region, their biggest is that more devo over farming and fishing will be “given” to the scotland region.
This from the exact same toryboy’s that fight with everything from the BBC to chumps like Massie up there, absolutely determined block any Scottish devo. Look at the historic The Vow shyste.
Its going to be schadenfreude time again, if Brexit wins and same Scottish loaded tory farmers that voted NO 2014, all demand their EU subsidies that suddenly stop dead next week, and they’re demands land on the desk of PM BoJo.
The only thing i would say in his defence is that many of us myself included have come alongway in our political beliefs to get to where we are today.I only realy changed my own political views for the final time to complete independence in the last three years or so.If people like him can see the light then this could be hugely encouraging.If the UK remains in the EU we are still going to have Boris and Farage as they are the likely leaders of the UK. Not a future i would look forward to for Scotland.
Capella at 1.50pm
Brilliant summary on the composition of the union-just remember to duck when Robert Peffers gets in-just in case 🙂
What’s happening with the yoons? They are all going mad:
Brexiteers promising Scotland more powers.
Remainians threatening to vote YES in IndyRef2.
Staunch yoons all of them.
The yoon world has finally gone mad. 🙂
@Capella. Hardly relevant in the context of this discussion, and disrespectful to the Welsh and Northern Irish people.
@Martin Richmond,
Entirely relevant to the discussion .and also quite accurate.
You will always be Scottish, Mr. Massie. The other two are voluntary.
Interesting Thames…
Ffs..let’s nae be fooled, even in the slightest. We’re talking about an anti-anything scottish, weapons grade bell end here.
Yes everybody has the right, given a change in circumstances to change their mind but whatever it is that may change his will be for purely selfish reasons and certainly not because he thinks Scotland should prosper and move forward under its own governance.
What next..a photo-shoot of him clad in full highland regalia doing the fling whilst screaming wheeeeeeee-heucccchhhh in between verses of Flower Of Scotland.
It’s a last ditch attempt by Massie to get a Remain vote…….. Final proof that you can’t believe a word he says…..
Well there it is in black and white that is if England Brexits next week we’ve got Mr Massie’s vote now for an Independent Scotland. One up …. 2 million to go. Too bad he couldn’t see the big picture, as we’ve all been able to do for years now, pre-Indyref1 when he used his position to manipulate and adversely influence voters.
And what should we expect from him in the lead up to Indyref2? Will he start informing the Scots of the numerous facts that have been obscured, omitted and distorted in the past, and currently, such as the McCrone Report, Stolen Seas, depopulation of Scotland, economy scuppered and so on. The list is endless so that should give him a great deal to write about in future.
One wonders too about his many biased colleagues, such as Torcooool. Will they all follow suit and if so will we witness them falling over each other, fighting the bit out, to get the Truth out there first … for once.
The big scoop: Scots have been conned for over 300 years now … by the likes of US.
Interesting times ahead methinks.
Alex Massie saying an independent Scotland in the EU would be his preference if there is a Brexit……
WOW!
So would any of the little England parties vote for an rUK breakaway from Scotland should we stop them getting their brexit?
I think not.
They have far too much to lose and they know it.
Must confess to having got my Massies mixed. OR not realising that there was more than one.
@ Lollysmum – I’m keeping out of sight for the rest of the day 🙂
@ Martin Richmond. The facts are friendly. What you do or think about them is up to you.
Praise the Lord! A Prodigal Son is returning!
Martin Richmond 2.25
Nae body is disrespecting any body.
The ONE and only thing this has ever been about is the Treaty between Scotland and England.
Should it be adhered to cause it’s a good arrangement for Scotland….. or discontinued cause things are better managed”in house”?Everything else is just detail.
When Robert Peffers show’s up pay attention cause he explains it very well.
Hey, I’m not happy. According to Massie, there was a referendum last year (2015). I was not sent a polling card.
Massie fils (Alex) wrote this: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/
Hugh: “Alex Massie saying an independent Scotland in the EU would be his preference if there is a Brexit”
If he chooses a place to stay paying attention to its politics, such as the Borders, he can feel comfortable having moved to Little Britain.
Reasons to be cheerful with Remain: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-4Zo
Some pretty tangential stuff being argued here. In the context of a refurrendum on the UK’s membership of the EU in 2016, it is neither accurate nor friendly to describe the people of Wales and Northern Ireland as being part of or indistinguishable from England.
Man who contributed to nastiness and divisiveness of indyref and general election complains about nastiness and divisiveness of indyref.
Also says that UK will be meaner and nastier if Brexit happens. Does he think that UK is already mean and nasty? Most people who want independence think so and is one of the main reasons for a desire for Scotland to run it’s own affairs.
@ Martin Richmond
You might learn something from one of Robert Peffers earlier posts:
“Well of course she is, as a direct descendant of the old Scottish Monarchy. The point is that under Scottish law the monarchy are not sovereign. This was declared in the Declaration of Arbroath. I quote it here : – (The declaration here speaks of King Robert Bruce), “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”
This is a basic statement of Scottish law. The Monarch is chosen by the people as the, “Protector of the people’s sovereignty”. He/she can be sacked by them if considered not to do their job. This is also the basis of the Scottish Claim of Right.
“The House of Lords has no jurisdiction in Scotland and the Houses of Parliament do not represent us in any commonly understood democratic way.
The fact that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign means that no one can rule us without our express consent, And that’s the problem, Capella, The English parliament assumed in 1688 that English law applied also to the still independent Kingdom of Scotland and by the English Parliament deposing King James II of England this also deposed the King of Scots. Hence the Jacobite Uprisings. Then the Scottish landowners, (parliamentarians), sold our birth-right by signing a Treaty of Union in Our Name. Which by even modern standards would have been declared illegal.
Even then the Treaty was a bipartite deal between two equally sovereign kingdoms, (the English part of which had already annexed both Wales & Ireland). How then can an rUK exist when one of only two equal partners dissolves the Union? Explain if you can how a United Kingdom of two kingdoms can exist when one leaves? When did any other kingdom ever join the Union? Wales is still an English Principality and Ireland was annexed by England in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland Act. The partition of Ireland did not create a new kingdom of Northern Ireland.
“OK. where do we go from here?
We obviously have a sound case to leave the union if a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland vote to do so. We do not require to legally ask either her Majesty nor her English Parliament to do so. Remember that the Three country Kingdom of England is a constitutional monarchy but that monarchy is not sovereign under Scottish law. Lizzie rules the Scots only by their legal and sovereign consent. – Robert Peffers, 5th January 2015”
Perhaps it is to rally the troops, but then again, I reckon a lot of No voters would actually be having second thoughts.
The future of Scotland outside the EU as a region of an isolationist Britain isn’t very appealing.
What utter Pish. If it was Better Together for Massie then it has to be Better Together now. You can’t suddenly change from Scottish British because the european bit has been dumped.
@ Luigi
“The yoon world has finally gone mad. :)”
If finally was around 100 years ago then – yes
There was a referendum last year and I missed it. Damn!
Will wonkidoodle Massie be required to perform an environmental impact assessment before releasing all that blood in the Thames?
Sounds kinda messy to me.
I think we should be told.
If as Dimbleby claimed on QT that everyone in Scotland was aware of the possibility of Brexit during the IndyRef then how come Alan Massie didn’t know?
Surely someone as politically savvy as this man must have know that by voting NO he was handing the power to the English electorate re Brexit!
Leopards don’t change their spots.
Read between the lines of Massie or should that be lies of Massie wrapped up in Union Jiggery-Pokery.
This is nothing more than desperation from a well known hack with threats of Scottish Independence to remind his reader(s) that they’ll be thrown into further turmoil, pensions being stopped, alien invasion, world War III etc. and all the other false threats dished out to Scotland in Indyref1.
Don’t believe anything these people write as it’s to the establishements preferred agenda and not for the common good of you or I.
“…as for US in Scotland…” who are you trying to fool Mr Massie!
What @Bob Mack said.
And
If anybody that voted No decides that they would be more open to Independence in the event of a 2nd referendum then the 45 should welcome them with open arms without mockery or derision. Give them the space and desire to want to turn themselves and their fellow 2014 UKOKs into YES.
In 2014 we lost, in 20** we must win and need to turn a couple hundred thousand votes.
Is he being entirely truthful?
This may be a “threaten them with Scottish Independence” attempt to direct English opinion. He clearly thinks the purpose of journalism is in fact the definition of propaganda. To make statements intended to influence or direct public opinion. Truth and factual accuracy doesn’t come into it.
Wings is a kind of negation propaganda. Focusing on Unionist propaganda and showing where it is personal opinion, factually false, just plain lies and hyperbole.
That’s why the press hates his guts.
That’s why I gave a donation.
Martin Richmond 3.19
Mibbi rather than considering Wale’s and N Ireland “indistinguishable” from England,its more the belief that each country should forge it’s own path and not be dictated to by the direction another country is taking.
It would be hipocracy would it not to try to direct the route that Wales and N Ireland should take?
So from that point of view and in this particular instance there is indeed only Scotland and everyone else on these islands
Don’t get too carried away with Massie’s damascene conversion to Scotland’s democratic interests.
He only intimates he would be ‘strongly tempted to be Scottish and European’
Well bully for him,but I’m sure he will show true Brit grit in not succumbing to this awful temptation.
If Allan Massie has indeed had a Damascene conversion and seen the light at last, I just hope he gets his loon (Alex) tellt!
He only says he will be ‘strongly tempted’ to vote for Indy. To me that means very little. The proof will be following what he writes in the coming months and years.
And the band played ‘believe it if you like’, as pigs flew across the two moons in the sky, hell froze over , the sun melted the rocks, Nicola Sturgeon introduced tuition fees, and a member of the Old Guard English Establishment got arrested and tried for and convicted of paedophilia before they popped their clogs.
Massie would no more vote for Scottish Independence than Reporting Scotland would broadcast a NHS good news story.
Still it keeps him in the spotlight…the Westminster arc lamps, rather.
Cynical vicious little Unionist: he is hardly a born again Scots Nat.
Oh look, a squirrel.
Re Alan Massie
“There is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than 99 good people who do not need to repent”.
We just need about half a million bloody sinners to repent. Not unlikely in the event of Brexit.
A big move in the opinion polls is also necessary.
Massie & his position pieces mean absolutely nothing-he is No & will remain No because that’s what guarantees his payday continuing to happen month after month, year after year.
Change sides? Pigs might very well fly if that happened.
Massie is one of those sinners who will never truly repent. He is just another one of the hand washers with collective amnesia.
For me personally hacks like these I wouldn’t reprint his article or future.
Who cares about a bigoted writer in the Daily Mail, nobody I know reads the rag, let him convince his ilk first but no way would I ever give him the time of day. So called journalist dont deserve any respect and need ignored forever.
Everytime you publish there crap most of the readers wont have seen the article and couldn’t care less. Arguments about what Mps quote yes but so called journalists need no more publicity as they think they are getting under our skin with the lies they write !!
Is the lamb not lying down with the lions?
Rats.
Ship.
Sinking.
Massie certainly has a way with words, and I actually don’t dislike the guy.
He comes across as reasonable, and I actually couldn’t find myself offended much by anything he said. The same can’t be said for many other better togetherers.
That said I frankly don’t believe this latest article. Until he actually campaigns for Scottish independence it’s just words.
We will steer our own course whatever happens. Massie and co. can either come aboard or swim with the sharks. It is of no consequence. We shall be free again!
news just in:
-facebook blocking status updates referring to (predominantly Leave) EU voting intention. facebook has been called in by the USA-UK government to help out the failing pro-EU campaign, as online polls show strong support for leaving the EU.
Is there some confusion in comments between father ..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Massie
… And son …
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Massie_(journalist)
I’m all for no voters changing their mind and converting to yes but Massie did more than “argue and vote” for the union in 2014. He lied and still is with his Scottish “referendum every bit as nasty and divisive as the present one.” He lied and help create the division. All the vile nastiness I saw came from the corporate media of which he is an employee. Nothing has changed in this EU referendum. If I thought he was genuinely converted I would welcome him with open arms. It will take more than a suspiciously timed article in support of remain. Desperate comes to mind.
@Neil Cook
The whole point of Wings is to publish the crap from the likes of Alan Massie.
We need more people to recognize it as crap.
Is there some confusion in comments here between father ..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Massie
… And son …
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Massie_(journalist)
Slightly O/T
Has Ruthie the Moothie disappeared doon sooth tae support the BREXIT eejits?
Ah wunner if she wiz oan a naval gun in thone Thames watter battle.
A Prodigal Son ?
Could this be the tip of the iceberg, the tipping point…
Interesting times indeed.
Exciting times too.
Words of wisdom from Marco Biagi in the national
EVERYONE in life is allowed to do a few monumentally stupid things. We all make mistakes. Things that seemed like good ideas at the time. Endowment mortgages, Cleggmania, bootcut jeans. If
your life quota of ill-advised choices is already exhausted, whatever you do don’t be a Scottish independence supporter feeling an urge to vote Leave in the hope of a second indyref. But if you are one of those creatures, you need to face a simple fact: a second referendum just isn’t going to happen after Brexit.
It’s so tempting to think the Scottish electorate will have a sudden and massive change of heart about independence. If that happens my shock will be overtaken by my joy. But we all have to face the harsh reality that there is no actual evidence that this will happen.
Think back to October 2012. A Panelbase poll reported 56 per cent of Scots “quite” or “very” likely to vote for independence, if they felt the 2015 General Election would return a Tory-led government. Almost four years on and we have that Conservative government but we don’t have that majority for independence.
What if following that poll the SNP had committed to another snap referendum in the event of a Conservative government?
Today those of us who support independence would be facing disaster. As we know there was no magic overnight revolution in independence support. There was a bounce, not a surge. Nicola Sturgeon would have spent a year calling on former Labour voters to back Yes, arguing the promise made to them that they could vote No for a less Conservative UK had not been delivered and so circumstances had changed sufficiently to revisit the question of independence. It would have been a desperate strategy and a huge gamble. A stake as precious as the prospect of your country’s independence is not thrown onto the table lightly. Certainly not when the best in your hand is a pair of fives.
Surely – surely – if the UK leaves the EU that changes the circumstances under which the No vote was won? Yes, it does. A second independence referendum could on that basis be justified and rendered legitimate. But that doesn’t mean it’s any more winnable.
Indeed, it would be less so. The same forces that gathered for the No campaign in 2014 would muster their strength again, drawing on the same networks and resources. But they would have a whole new argument they could deploy. Instead of rehashing the dismal campaign of 2014, they would simply ask one question of the Scottish public. Would you rather be part of Europe or part of Britain? Framed like that the answer would be an overwhelming second No.
And that would be it. The independence campaign would be thrown into disarray and disunity. Recriminations would fly. There would be no need to quibble over how long a generation is because the time before this and any subsequent referendum would be forever.
The SNP today dominates Scottish politics. The pro-independence Greens are also on the rise. We have an opportunity to build and entrench support for independence. The quickest way for all of that to collapse is a failed second independence referendum. Our opponents long for us to be so catastrophically reckless as to hold one and lose. It is literally the only realistic path they have to win back power in Scotland in the foreseeable future.
If we are to win, we need an understanding between the grassroots and elected leaderships of the Yes parties. That those great assembled ranks of activists who want independence not tomorrow but today will not press leaders to follow a Leave vote in the EU referendum with a second vote on independence. But the quid pro quo is that those leaders must use their resources to develop the case for independence and work with the grassroots so that there will be that second vote, and it will be won. This needs trust on all sides.
But it has to happen. We need to reach out to those who voted No and better understand them – especially those who share the progressive ideals of the Yes movement but were left cold by our arguments last time round. EU membership was just one small part of a complex debate that encompassed questions of industry, currency, public finances, pensions, and many more. On all of these we need to examine our arguments and develop our case.
If Brexit defies all expectations and does deeply change minds, the Yes movement should be ready. But if and when it doesn’t, we shouldn’t be foolish. The second referendum will be won if it arises from the demands not of impatient Yes activists wanting a quick rerun, but the demands of hundreds of thousands of No voters that have converted and want to throw their support behind national independence. Those who have the means to hold a second referendum are wise enough to know this. Everyone else who supports independence has to be wise enough to realise they are right.
Allan Massie… “Aye, whatever you say lad!” (Rolly eyes emoticon)
Allan Massie ‘seen the light’?? I have my doubts!! SERIOUS doubts! But if he proves it, I will throw up my hands and declare “Fair dues! You were telling the truth. And I apologise that I doubted you!”.
As an MSM ‘agent provocateur’, it remains to be seen if he will provide the proof in the pudding…
This is what British unionist and hack Hugo Rifkind wrote recently,
?
“I spent the best part of two years pleading with Scots to realise that England was not a foreign country. Hard to make that argument today”.
I think seeing what we get from England,has maybe changed some yoon minds about our wish to free ourselves.
Tory/Labour austerity,UKIP,EU ref,EVEL,Lords,Google,Bullingdon club,Syria,Iraq,Trident,Nuclear power,Ian Duncan Smith,sanctions,the demonisation of immigrants and those on welfare,food banks,Cameron and Osborne,Hilary Benn etc, etc, etc.
Wait, last year? I thought the Scottish referendum was held in 2014. Maybe he is confused.
He says he has ‘never cared for the SNP’. Such a crass thing to say. Does he enjoy free prescriptions, do his kids if he has any at uni, pay tuition fees? Scaremongering, I mean any tory reading that rag, will be terrified even he will ‘be tempted’. Oh no, must vote remain then, even though they absolutely hate the EU.
One tory I know of hates the EU, because of ‘elf n safety’ and it ‘gives criminals human rights’.
Oh dear, they clearly do not care about their own or their family or friends’ human rights.
schrodingers cat says:
“The second referendum will be won if it arises from … the demands of hundreds of thousands of No voters that have converted”
Indeed. I am impatient, not to simply hold IndyRef2, but for the circumstances to arise which cause the necessary flood of convertees!
Brexit? We’ll just need some patience to find out!
IndyRef1, I accept the result, but I don’t respect its validity. The legitimacy of any outcome was completely compromised by purdah breaching false promises before voting begun. This we now know indisputably.
The great Monte Walsh once said “You can’t have no idea how much I don’t care about what you think”
I’m quite sure following a Brexit other Yoons will find God and be converted to the light even though they would still have preferred to hang on to their apprentice status as true blue Englishmen and accept their lowly Scottie Monkey position as just gentle banter from their masters
But rather than hold their noses and accept the SNP they could move to Orkney and become Liberal Democrats, which most of them are anyway, they just won’t own Edinburgh anymore
It’s a win win for everyone, they don’t have to hold their noses and we don’t have to turn ours up at them, or be divisive and nasty by….. “mocking them”
Oooh I bet that hurt
Gibraltar is going to get interesting if we have Brexit. I don’t think the French will be offering any of their carriers to help the British protect their European outpost in the Med.
I believe the Swiss have a more patrol vessels on lake Geneva than we have patrolling the British isles.
Maybe this is what Massie is scared of, a new Spanish armada nipping up the Thames.
“The english bulldog is ready to snarle”, eh, it could’nae catch a rabbit let alone do anything else. The poor wee things of the modern day variety are horribly deformed with poor health thanks to terrible breeding practices. The nineteenth century bulldog on the other hand….! In a way the british bulldog is a kind of real metaphor for the unions current state. Anything this union touches gets corrupted and ruined.
Och no Allen`s personal demons again man cant even sit on the fence for falling off it.
And what is it with all these hacks got bloody referendums in the head the lot of them hehe
Who said we would need another referendum a wise man once said there are many ways to gain independence,smart man we made him FM.
schrodingers cat says:
17 June, 2016 at 5:30 pm
Words of wisdom from Marco Biagi in the national
Vintage analysis,easily the best post I have ever read in these comments section.
What Marco Biagi, realises and very few on here have ever contemplated, is Indyref2, will b fought on completely different ground to the first.
The anti-austerity platform in the face of the most rapacious Tory Govt, during the greatest recession since the 1930’s, may well have persuaded the people of Dundee and Glasgow, with their potent mix of “hope over fear” .
For every “Yes” converted, a Yoon was more entrenched.
Its Scotland or Britain , whichever way you choose, you will gladly put up with 10 years of austerity-max, and German air raids , its your country after all, and you support it right or wrong.
Throughout this whole EU ref I have been listening to the language used by both sides, (excluding Nicola and Alex) this is an english vote. I feel totally excluded from the debate being pedalled by both sides. They care not a jot about Scotland. Let them keep it up. England is alienating all UK feeling in the other 3 nations.
These little englanders don’t even factor in the loss they’ll feel once Scotland leaves the UK and ya know why. It’s not because they don’t know the maths it’s because they think they control the Scottish and they own us. NO’ers need to wake up to how much England uses us.
How you doing Papko, sensible, Neocon or “evil”
Papko says:
“Its Scotland or Britain , whichever way you choose”
True, but I believe the split on that is 75:25-ish. Many, most even, NO voters did so because they felt that was best for themselves, and their families. They didn’t give a hoot about good for the UK.
Those who choose Britain are probably a lost cause, harking back as you say, to German bombers.
It’s the soft No Scots we need to work on. Show them Indy can be the best option.
And it’s not just about conversion, it’s also about showing Indy is not about the SNP, it’s much more. Also, we need to get turnout in Yes areas up to that of No areas.
Chip chip. A wee bit here, a wee bit there.
I am fine Black Douglas, and appreciate your courtesy.
I like a lot of the posters here, though we disagree on things.
Though some do get rather shrill and vituperative,
I am not a “troll”, as anyone who disagrees with the party line is often wrongly called.
I like reading the Rev’s dissection of media stories, and enjoy the points made thereafter.
I do hope I have not offended or insulted anyone among you, Its never my intention.
I’m 100% with woosie,above. Wee Massie is Jock-on-the-make in London hedging his bets, the shameless, unprincipled cur.
marco makes some very good points, as do those on this thread.
just to clarify tho’
if brexit, yes2 should be re-launched, its job is to show everyone that there is a ground swell of opinion for indyref2
nicola, will need to keep her cards close to her chest, she cannot comit to indyref2 until the polls show a consistent swing to yes. latest polls still show a 50/50 split with yes now beginning to overtake nos. she needs to focus on talking to the EU and getting a public announcement from them on scotlands position if we vote yes
where i disagree with marco is that if brexit, i think the stream of bad economic news, run on the £, redundencies, finiancial services relocating etc, is what will cause some of the nos to switch to yes, it was the perceived financial security of the uk which caused many to vote no, if this is seen to disappear, so will support for no. indeed, massy may not be genuine in his plea but he will and does represent a % of nos, possibly not very many initially
the council elections in may2017 will give nicola the confirmation of the mandate to hold indyref2. but whether this happens will depend on how severe the economics events about to unfold are.
eitherway, nicola will not beable to commit to indyref2 on the 24th of june.
tread carefully folks
“Papko says: galamcennalath
“Its Scotland or Britain , whichever way you choose”
True, but I believe the split on that is 75:25-ish.”
Well why did you not base Indy ref 1 on that premise and you would have won ?
Why get bogged down in multiple skirmishes over currency , pensions, trade deals, welfare payments, border controls.
Everyone a mini Thermopylae on every high street and living room in Scotland.
Just the binary choice is enough , and victory will assured by your metric.
@Papko,
Offence cannot be given.Only taken ,and you seem big enough to look after yourself.
Every one of us has been slapped down at some point.
Thx for the clarification Bob Mack .
It makes me wonder how much the internet and sites like these change the nature of debate.
If this was the 1980’s we would all be meeting , arguing in the pub.
Facts and statistics would come from newspapers and books.
I would say there would be a good deal more respect in a face to face discussion , until off course the drink flowed to freely , but even then.
The Internet has placed vast libraries at our disposals , links, .pdf’s, blogs, opinions,social media polls and likes.
yet still the matter is up for debate, (not just indy) every subject from climate change to Trumps plans, has there opposing sides, more powerfully armed, but still unable to land decisively.
Thx for the clarification Bob Mack .
It makes me wonder how much the internet and sites like these change the nature of debate.
If this was the 1980’s we would all be meeting , arguing in the pub.
Facts and statistics would come from newspapers and books.
I would say there would be a good deal more respect in a face to face discussion , until off course the drink flowed to freely , but even then.
The Internet has placed vast libraries at our disposals , links, .pdf’s, blogs, opinions,social media polls and likes.
yet still the matter is up for debate, (not just indy) every subject from climate change to Trumps plans, has there opposing sides, more powerfully armed, but still unable to land decisively.
On the few occasions I have had the misfortune of seeing and hearing Massie he came across as a massive Yoon troll stain.
schrodingers cat says:
17 June, 2016 at 5:30 pm
Words of wisdom from Marco Biagi in the national
Polls are showing Brexit next week. They’re not just a late Brexit win poll like that one outlying poll that freaked out BetterTogether 2014 but a polling trend right out the EU door.
If Marco Biagi is right, there wont be a Scots ref 2 at all. Even if there is ref 2, it will be once again gerrymandered and destroyed by tory BBC led media, including UKOK delights like Massie. And he knows it.
Brexit next week will have a massive economic impact, short and long term. Already City money is flowing out of the UK like a burst dam.
These little englanders don’t even factor i……
i dont doubt your assessment of some down south…. dont really care though…. only interested in people moving from no to yes in scotland. once indy, westminster will be reduced to “news where you are”
Paxso at the stirring. Pap the fucker oot,diznae take long tae find oot the Trolls on here.
Sorry Massie, yur no gettin in oor gang.
You nailed your colours to the mast, lying turncoats not welcome.
As The Who wrote “We won’t get fooled again”
I will welcome any genuine nay sayer who has seen sense, and realised their mistakes.
But the Yoons who LIED at Indy Ref can go and “DO ONE”
@Schrodingers cat
I don’t think the fella’s far wrong. I’ve always reckoned the SG were aiming for the end of the current parliamentary term. At earliest opportunity? For a whole host of reasons 2020-21. All either Mr Salmond or the First Minister have ever claimed is that the trigger for a referendum would require a constitutional crisis such as a Brexit. This does not mean that they’d hold a referendum the day after (exaggeration, but you get the drift).
If its a narrow YES, where Scotland’s vote has effectively kept the UK in the EU, the relevant political forces within Westminster and the right wing press will do what we fully expect of them by this stage. The cultural and political gap will widen accordingly.
If its a no to EU membership, yet the Scottish electorate vote in favour by majority, the SG have their trigger which they can deploy at any time in the next four or five years. At very least they’ll make good use of the period in a post Brexit vote where Westminster drags its ass on negotiations with the EU, the Conservatives swap leadership and backstabbing runs amok amongst the parties of the UK political scene. This could be a period of (at the very least) two to three years. Bags of time for the pro independence parties and the SG to assert themselves as a steady ship in a political storm. Which, of course, they are.
Either way, they’ll buy themselves the necessary time to build that consensus and put further water between Scottish and the madness that is Westminster politics. The timing of the new independence initiative to begin this summer was never an accident. Its tone and direction would always have been dependent on the outcome of this vote IMO.
Slow, patient, measured and steady. No mistakes, the people themselves will let them know when they’re ready and the SG already know the existing movement are champing at the bit to get busy. Next one we win, not just because we know the outcome before we start, but because we absolutely HAVE to.
Papko @ 6.51
Aye yir no kiddin it’s amazing the variety off stuff ye can learn on the net.
One of the most useful IMHO is unconsciously picking up how to recognise a style of writing.
Never would have thunk it but there it is.
Naughty naughty Rev 🙂 Alex’s dad …
Papko says:
“Just the binary choice is enough , and victory will assured by your metric”
In 21stC Europe, how many people will put their country ahead of their families? Few. I wouldn’t.
I support Scottish self determination because that is what is best for my family, community, and wider society. The idea of old fashioned patriotic ‘my country right or wrong’ is just too illogical to contemplate for me and I am sure for many others. That is an invention of the elite to serve the elite. Some do fall for it.
The choice is not binary Scottish versus British, it’s about which route forward is most likely to deliver what I want to see. I see no route via London, Westminster and a UK. Some do, that’s their problem.
Route planning is complex and some Scots who identify as Scots simply haven’t taken on board a future without the familiar UK layer. That doesn’t mean they have consciously chosen Britain instead of Scotland.
Massie’s certainly right that the Leave campaigners would be happy to be rid of Scotland. There was a brief but unconvincing love in during the run up to the Referendum but most folks down south think the Scots are a bunch of whinging benefit junkies who are subsidised by England. The head honchos may know differently but thats the line many of the Leave voters will have swallowed from mainstream media.
Very interesting. I was talking with a friend just today – a Lib Dem and committed Unionist – who, like Massie, has seen the light (a little at least). She admitted that she, too, would prefer to be Scottish and in Europe than be dragged out by Gove et al. Strange times indeed.
Is anybody considering the possibility that a Brexit victory could lead to an early UK general election – thereby completely changing the context in which most postbrexit speculation is taking place.
eg Could a fecked-up Conservative Party provide the perfect political storm for a victory by a Corbyn-led Labour Party.
The possible mechanisms for interruption to a Fixed-Term -Parliament are laid out here.
http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/11067/the-not-so-fixed-term-parliaments-act/.
For example, would a victorious brexit rejection of Osborne’s threatened austerity budget be the equivalent of a no-confidence vote?
No chance of a GE Labour not strong enough to force one. Plenty internal Tory squabbles though, could turn parliament hard right wing.
@Papko
Here’s an argument fur ye. Yah dancer.
Dah Dah Dah Da Derra Da Derra
Dah Dah Dah Da Derra Da Derra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA
Um – a little point if non voters in the indy referendum are counted as supporters for the status quo does the same hold true with the EU?
I’m thinking that the turn-out for this referendum in each part of the UK is as important as the result.
Inverclyder,
“Leopards don’t change their spots.”
Don’t trust British journalists one bit.
If ever they are forced to write anything in favour of Scottish independence, they don’t mean it.
It is only for their own selfish means.
Part time “pro-independence” journalists included.
“galamcennalath
In 21stC Europe, how many people will put their country ahead of their families? Few. I wouldn’t.
Thx for your courteous reply
I respect what you say , but the binary route if valid would give you the fast rack to indy.
The meandering route is all very well, its just the cynic in me would think that in year 25 of an SNP Govt how much better can it be ?, the longer they govern the more mundane it gets.
Paula Rose says:
“I’m thinking that the turn-out for this referendum in each part of the UK is as important as the result”
I think so too. I am concerned that if it’s UK in / Scotland out, and the Scottish turnout is low, then our case for being ‘dragged out against our will’ is diminished.
OK, non voters should never be counted, but if our turn out is really low it sends the message that we don’t care.
The establishment are preparing for a rigged Remain vote.
The likes of Curtice will credit all these pleas and vows, not forgetting the silent majority, for having turned it into a Remain win.
Either way, Scotland benefits from a strong Scottish Remain vote.
Has Ahura been re-incarnated?
Thx Thepnr
I enjoyed that video, I have seen it before in Frankie Boyle’s “Referendum Autopsy”
I am a bit like the chap on the bike. annoying but harmless.
Aaaaaand he’s back…jist cannae keep away fae the place can he, here we go again same old shite dressed up as shite.
A mental case kills a politician which 99.99% of the rest of us wouldnt even contemplate although we might shout it at each other from time to time, but I’ve just watched the STV news and the BBC news allow politicians to somehow absolve themselves of bad behaviour yet ask the public to stop behaving badly (in their opinion)
They wonder why the public gets so incensed at them, the hypocritical arrogance on display today was spew inducing wretchedness
They’ll be introducing a law next limiting things folk can say, Oh wait a minute we used to have that before we got freedom of speech
I listened to both Tory and Red Tory saying the same thing over and over with the same words which amounted to let’s start again and wipe everybodys memory’s like we used to be able to do before the internet and you could catch us out
I’m only applying this to Scotland because I couldn’t care less about England, that’s a problem for English voters
But in Scotland when we say we’re going to kill someone quite often that’s a compliment, were it not, Social Services would have been round my mothers house on a daily basis as I’m sure most Scots and as you know she never killed me yet
So the forget everything we did in the past strategy, which I hasten to add has been politically bandwagoned because of this poor young womans death, is yet another example of the contempt these same politicians hold us in to think we’re too stupid to work out their at it again, makes me sick
Maybe if Fluffy, Ian Murray, Anne Begg,and as many Scottish Labour lot weren’t in such a hurry to get on the telly to tell us all how bad their lives are but how stoic they are in accepting their lot I might have been less cynical
I kinda think WOS won’t be packing up the new servers and putting the Typometers into mothballs very soon and politicians will attract exactly what they deserve and if this Scotland blaming keeps going
We do have more eggs and sarcasm at the ready
Once you realise that Massie is paid by the word, all the drivel that he writes become perfectly explicable.
God.
Work (NHS) is feckin hard going and I am now expecting in laws (outlaws) from Chelmsford.
Apart from red wine, any idea how I will cope with the Brexit conversations and how bad SNP are without offending?
They think Thatcher is the best thing ever. Honestly, as she won the Falklands…I tried once to bring up having to pay poll tax whilst in 6th year (just turned 18) but they paid nae heed….and they think Tebbit is like the dogs.
yeah….Second bottle, here I come.
Tonight’s TV News = The Brit State propaganda machine is now in full swing. Thoroughly disgusted at Fluffy and Murray and Begg using this to tell us what a hard life MPs etc have. Heck any one of us could be killed by a nutter or a drunk, they are usually behind the wheel of a car though and not carrying a gun. Attack on democracy my arse!
If you don’t avoid the MSM over the next week, you are going to have to stock up Dr Jim…
http://www.analystconsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/egg-distribution-and-supply.jpg
@shiregirl –
I feel your pain…
Recently had to endure in-law gushing about Gordon Brown’s oratorial skills. Almost chewed my own chin off.
Bottoms-up!
Who knows who they are ?
An aristocrat,an acrobat,a doormat,a mannie wae a fanny,a fanny wae a mannie,who cares,ignore….
….The Bawbag
;-j
@Papko
Don’t thank me I gave you nothing.
Shiregirl 8.50
As a conversation starter –
ask them what they think of the interior of the house of their local MP, Third-Degree Burns.
http://archive.is/h55zV
Shiregirl, I’m passed the second bottle. Well worth the effort required to withdraw the second cork. We live in interesting times. I can only fall back on ancient wisdom….leopards never change their spots and rats always leave a sinking ship.
p.s. It took a long time to type that in my present, inebriated, state.
But we still live in interesting times.
brilliant stuff from wgd
“If anything illustrates the utter moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the United Kingdom and the Westminster political class it has been the way in which this supposed exercise in public consultation has been cynically sucked dry of anything approaching intelligence, wit, warmth, humanity and compassion.
Anyone who compares the nastiness, negativity and noxiousness of this EU referendum campaign with the Scottish indyref is only contributing to the lack of principle and imagination which characterises this EU referendum on both sides. In comparison the Scottish referendum was a joyous and positive affair. Where Scotland had wish trees and Lady Alba’s witty songs, Westminster’s EU referendum has covert racism and the imaginative brain power of tree slime on tranquillisers. The only wish tree is the one that says we wish it was all over. If you could plant a sapling in the soil of the EU referendum campaign, the only thing that would grow would be poisonous.”
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/thumbs-down-to-westminsters-colosseum/
ok. Writing this in the kitchen (hiding)
Left it at ‘we sank the Belgrano’ pretending to get drinks…
I don’t know how I will get through this *feeling exposed*
I am too young to remember but I thought it (Belgrano) was heading back out of the exclusion zone?
hmm another red wine before I bring it up…
@Bill Hume & Mike Cassidy
Thinking at end of next drink will ‘mention’ this – third degree burns…
I am thinking they can’t see past their Tory MP. My betrothed is not making eye contact which as I am slightly pissed, am finding his uncomfortable-ness funnny 🙂
W.T F. They haven’t asked how we are yet, Only how bad the SNP are. Oh me. A long night ahead.
Vicious cold blooded murder on the streets,
Iraq Thursday 16th June 2016
54 killed,
Shirqat: 26 executed.
Fallujah: 9 children executed.
Baghdad: 4 by IEDs.
Madain: 3 by IED.
Haditha: 2 children by a rocket.
Taji: 2 by IED.
Yusufiya: 2 policemen by IED.
Mahmudiya: 2 by IED
Zubair: 1 body.
Baquba: 1 teacher by gunfire.
Mosul: 2 by knife wounds.
June 1-16: 774 civilians killed in Iraq,
http://tinyurl.com/nkdysqd
OK, non voters should never be counted, but if our turn out is really low it sends the message that we don’t care
@galamcennalath
How low is low ? council elections are 40% TO , Holyrood 50%, and GE 65%, on average last 20 years.
Last ref was 85% TO , though have you have referred previously in areas of YES majority, the TO was 75%.
I reckon the TO on Thursday will be 70% as its quite important.
Though I agree a low TO will undermine the result.
The polls do look dire, but they are small samples 2k odd, compared to 40 million people voting.
I hope Cameron does it again.
@shiregirl –
Do they always talk about the same stuff?
Sounds like some kind of torture…working hard, reaching the week-end, only to be subjected to boring mindless pish.
Nothing much worst than a reluctant Scot.,especially when it’s a “political reporter”.
At Iain More says
All leading SNP politicians have received death threads but dont go running to the media and thereby encourage nutters and UKOK supporters the publicity they seek.
I hope Cameron does it again
Whit? Fucks a dead pig..
I see whack a mole is back. Just when the site was getting back to normal up he pops trying to lead us up cul de sacs.
@Ian Brotherhood
Yes. Same stuff all the time.
I feel awful, but worked my bum off all week and now need to sit and listen to how they sunk the Belgrano.
And how amazing Thatcher was. And Tebbit. And Major – as he is good at cricket, apparently.
They didn’t play cricket in Muirhouse when I grew up.
So, I am thinking I might get super pissed this evening and let them know how I feel. (I have been told to not tell them I am an SNP supporter as it may cause infidelity).
Been a fully paid up member since the ref 😀
The greatest threat to democracy comes from the Londinium establishment and their political gofurs in Westminster + the civil service.
Yaas!! Unbelievable monster in space film on
Distraction !! that’s what I’m talking about
Jack Daniels at the ready
@shiregirl –
This is a bit kismetish, but…
Rev has just informed us, via Twitter, that Bucks Fizz’s ‘Land Of Make Believe’ was an anti-Thatcher anthem penned by someone who played for King Crimson.
Why don’t you play that on your phone, ask them if they remember it, and see if you can get them to sing along? It may give you some light relief and quiet satisfaction…
😉
Hey, Shiregirl.
Like Emmylou said it:
It’s alright, cuz it’s midnight
And I got two more bottles of wine
Actually the clock on the bunkhouse wall of my little log cabin in the Rockies says it’s still middle of the afternoon.
But it got to be 5 o’clock somewhere.
@shiregirl –
Here it is:
Buck’s Fizz, ‘The Land of Make Believe’ –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9TX9syyqnc
@Martin Richmond says: 17 June, 2016 at 1:16 pm:
“Did I miss a refurrendum or two? Last time I checked there were 4 countries in the United Kingdom, not just Scotland and England. Details are important, as is respect for Welsh and Northern Irish voters.”
Aye! Martin, details are indeed important and here’s a couple of important details for you. The United Kingdom did not unite four countries. It, as its title accurately describes it, is a union of only two kingdoms for the country of Wales was annexed to the Kingdom of England by the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284. It remained a country but became an integral part of the Kingdom of England.
Then, in 1542, by the Crown of Ireland Act, the country and kingdom of Ireland was annexed by the Kingdom of England and thus also became an integral part of The Kingdom of England.
Only the Kingdom and country of Scotland remained independent of the three country Kingdom of England. In 1603 the King of Scotland inherited the three country Kingdom of England but a unique thing for those days happened – or rather didn’t happen.
The law of the Kingdom of England in 1603 was then still, “The Divide Right of Kings”, under which law a monarch who defeated another monarch in battle, married into another kingdom or inherited another kingdom simply tagged the new acquisition onto his or her existing realm but there was a legal precedent in this case.
Scots law, as affirmed in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath was not Divine Right of Kings and this caused the Scots Monarch to move his whole court, lock, stock and barrel, from Scotland, (the Kingdom), where monarchs are not legally sovereign to England where they are.
The Stewart monarchs then spent the rest of their time as monarchs attempting, but failing, to form a United Kingdom only to eventually be deposed by the Parliament of England in 1688 with the, “Glorious Revolution”, but which revolution could not legally affect the Stewarts as non-sovereign monarchs in Scotland for Scotland remained an independent Kingdom until 1706/7, 104 years later.
The Glorious Revolution is what kicked off what English history claims as The Jacobite Rebellion. Which, of course, could not be a rebellion as Scotland was still an independent Kingdom and country until 1707. However, the Jacobite uprisings and the war between the two kingdoms continued for almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union until the Battle of Culloden in 1745.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the United Kingdom was a treaty between only two Kingdoms and one of those Kingdoms contained three countries. Which obviously gives the lie to the Unionist claims that upon Scottish independence the former, three country, Kingdom of England would continue as an rUK.
The legal term for when a bipartite union, for example a marriage, ends is for it to return to a, “Status Quo Ante”, with BOTH partners returning to their pre-union status.
It would be just as wrong for a marriage to end in divorce with one former partner still being married while the other became unmarried.
So there you go. Martin, while there are indeed four countries in the United Kingdom it is a marriage of Kingdoms and not of countries. Which is, of course, why it is named, “The United Kingdom”. BTW: The actual Royal Realm of Elizabeth Regina also includes three non-UK government Crown Dependencies and, the, “Britain”, the United KINGDOM constantly claims to be, also includes a Republic that, by its very nature, cannot be part of a Kingdom.
Sorry to ramble on but then you did state that facts were important ALL OF THEM.
@Dr Jim
Been looking across some of the media, and I fear their spinning has only just begun. You can’t expect them to come forward with ‘mea culpa’, they only report the hate, they don’t stoke it!
Expect lots of finger pointing in the direction of the politicians, but no one gave a shit when politicians and media were creating the same hateful environment up here. We were whinging and liars if we tried to call it out.
I see that witless Fogarty has said she is taking a break from Twitter – good riddance. They don’t like it when they get called out, and that’s one big lesson they should learn.
Their lack of integrity truly makes me sick. How else can anyone account for the nationwide silence on Tory Election Fraud? That one item should tell the country what it needs to know.
Yes, politicians are culpable, but so are their bullhorns.
In the loo 🙂
Playing my ‘hits of the 80’s’ – Aneka, Baltimora, Ryan Paris (la dolce vita). They didn’t know who the Mighty Wah was.
I’m pissed. I no longer care. *dancin’ la dolce vita in the loo with phone*
😀
@AlbertaScot
I can not tell you what I would give to be in a log cabin in…somewhere right now.
@Ian Brotherhood
God damn love Bucks Fizz. I so wanted to be Jay Aston with her demi perm/bleached hair and fab half-hingin’ apparel.
She was the best (as I sing and mime land of make believe)
Shiregirl
I hope your loo is not as sinister as Third Degree Burns’ loo.
That room looks more like a portal to hell!
Oh, and here’s the quote from lyric writer, Pete Sinfield about the Bucks Fizz track.
“For instance “The Land of Make Believe” beneath its TRa La la IS a virulent anti Thatcher song… Oh yes it is… “Something nasty in your garden, waiting, til it can steal your heart. . .” Lovely & my first No. 1″
The lovely shrödingers cat is coming to speak in Brechin – I’ve got the bestest speakers xxx
@Ian Brotherhood
everyone appears to be watching Eurotrash.
…hang on. Fripp was in Crimson.
Was he not married to Toyah?
Rev should get some Stranglers in there. Black and White.
@shiregirl
If you wanted to be really nasty you could ask them how come an exocet managed to sink the Sheffield, though the aircraft carrier the Invincible apparently had warning of the attack minutes before?
Re Belgrano, that’s why it was sunk, basically the UK had no defence against the exocet missile – which was French.
For the sake of accuracy, make that “no adequate defence”. And the Type 42 was wafer thin.
Sinking the Belgrano was wrong it was twisted and in my view a war crime. The UK said right here are the rules come within 500 miles of the Falklands and we will see you as a threat and attack you.
The Belgano which was Argentina’s only real warship was outside the “war zone” and sailing away, not towards the Falklands.
It’s written in books about the conflict, the Captain of the Nuclear Submarine that identified the Belgrano informed London and the order from Thatcher came back. Sink it.
@yesindyref2
Thanks for that 🙂
I was only 8 at the time and clueless…
Another Merlot and I will gently ease it into conversation.
hmm. Wish me luck. They seem stuck on Eurotrash.
Diana Gould on Nationwide, confronting Thatcher re The Belgrano:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O184yGKknSQ
@Thepnr
The problem for the British military establishment, and particularly the Royal Navy, is that to adequately defend the decision to sink the Belgrano, they’d have to admit that the pride of the British fleet was no match for an old carrier and a few warships, plus a couple of French jets.
The Belgrano had been zigzaggin in and out of the exclusion zone and the sub was about to lose contact. Thatcher dithered and dithered apparently, and I’ve a feeling in the end left it to the judgement of the skipper. Meanwhile there was a group of warships to the north that could have mounted a real attack.
Like I say, the UK doesn’t want to admit that the whole Falklands mission was incredibly touch and go, not far from total disaster. In the end it was hailed as a great victory. There’s some similarities to Jutland, but that’s another story.
This journo will say anything to get print.
@Capella says: 17 June, 2016 at 1:50 pm@
“Mr Peffers will be along shortly to give a more comprehensive answer.”
Yup! I did but a wee bittie late perhaps.
I’m up to my ears in home renovations. Carpentry, Joinery, Cabinet Making, Brickying, Plastering and Sparkying.
Next week, (with a bit of hard graft and a bit of luck), it will be painting and decoration.
It all started when a computer charger blew-up – followed by the gas boiler and central heating going AWOL. As I tried to sort things out the job just got bigger and more complex.
It’s an old cottage, 90 years old this year and the complications were the lime plaster just disintegrated when attempting to sort out the real fault in the electric wiring that caused the computer power-unit and gas boiler faults.
The end result should become a new built in Entertainment Centre in what had once been a built in cupboard in the chimney breast alcove. Someone had converted a quite attractive old style built in unit into a, total waste of space, curved alcove. About all it was any good for was to stand an ornament in, or perhaps a small jardinière.
Thing was they had routed the electric cables behind the curved bit of hardboard that formed the useless wee alcove and there was np way to get at them except rearing the thing apart.
A couple of my neighbours still have their original integral unit and it is quite beautiful. I think my own creation will also be a great space saver and look good too.
RE: “The Land Of Make Believe”.
The following two quotes are from:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_of_Make_Believe
“”The Land of Make Believe” is a 1981 single by British band Bucks Fizz. It reached No.1 in the UK in early 1982 – the second single by the band to do so
The song was produced by Andy Hill with music by Hill and lyrics by ex-King Crimson member Peter Sinfield.
Despite the apparent sugar-coated style of the song, Sinfield later claimed it was a subtle attack on Margaret Thatcher and her government’s policy at the time.[1]
“The Land of Make Believe” became a big hit across Europe in early 1982, topping the charts in Netherlands, Belgium and Ireland as well as the UK. The song was later covered by pop band allSTARS* for a 2002 single release.”
and…
” The close of the song features a nursery rhyme narrated by Abby Kimber, who was the 11-year-old daughter of Bill Kimber, an executive of RCA Records.
This was an original piece penned by Sinfield.
At the time, radio stations were instructed to fade the song before the narration.[3] Sinfield said that the song “Beneath its tra-la-la’s is a virulent anti-Thatcher song” and went on to say “it is ten-times more difficult to write a three-minute hit song, with a veneer of integrity, than it is to write anything for King Crimson or ELP””
I bought and liked that single…
@Ian Brotherhood
Quite. This is it though, here are the rules. Fuck the rules.
So now Mundell is claiming death threats…!!
Then Murray’s constituency office is used as an example of how exposed MP’s can be.
A cynic would think there is a subliminal message here….
Maybe they couldn’t find any of the 56 SNP Constituency offices…aye..that must be it !
Thatchers decision to sink the Belgano was not a new one.
When France fell in WW11 the French navy retreated to Algeria, Churchill ordered them to surrender or be sunk for fear of the ships falling into German hands.
The French refused so they were sunk in their harbours and more than 1000 men died.
They were our allies, yet.
schrodingers cat says:
17 June, 2016 at 9:18 pm
brilliant stuff from wgd
“If anything illustrates the utter moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the United Kingdom and the Westminster political class it has been the way in which this supposed exercise in public consultation has been cynically sucked dry of anything approaching intelligence, wit, warmth, humanity and compassion.
Another UKOK tory hack’s smearing Scotland as per
Stephen Daisley ?@JournoStephen 8h8 hours ago
The hounding of @ShelaghFogarty is shameful. No civic political movement behaves like this
And SLab activists pile in with
John Ruddy ?@jruddy99 8h8 hours ago
@JamieGlackin1 @JournoStephen @ShelaghFogarty No the referendum wasnt the sweetness and light some would have us believe
Ruddy’s region of Scotland became famous when a SLab candidate went after Scottish children, publicly calling them Hitler youth. Yoon culture is on the way out of Scotland but they wont go with out being absolutely hideous.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/smear-em-young/
“Kathy Wiles was today selected as Labour’s 2015 Parliamentary candidate for the Westminster seat of Angus, currently held by the SNP. (Extra-vigilant readers will have also spotted a tweet above from John Ruddy, the chair of the Angus Labour Party that selected her.) She apparently thinks it’s fine to liken small children to the Hitler Youth because they’ve had their photograph taken under a Wings Over Scotland banner.”
Same charming UKOK bundle of delight’s been on BBC Question Time since then too. ew.
Indirectly bearing on the Belgrano – back to the Sheffield, I found this (probably again): oops nearly forgot to archive
http://archive.is/wN5NZ
What this shows to me is an arrogance, these were the Argies, a third rate military power, made up of unwilling conscripts, useless. Well, they sunk the Sheffield, and because of the deployment of chaff, the Atlantic Conveyor. I don’t think they were far off getting the Invincible, and that would have been game over, perhaps even surrender time.
(It also indirectly shows why the Harriers, stars of the Falklands, ended their useful life in modern warfare – unable to upgrade the radar).
That’s something you’ll never get in the official history. And with the attitude the UK has to surface escorts for the two very capable carriers, it still exists.
This make me laugh and also make me happy. The Unionist hacks are shitting it LOL
Stephen Daisley has blocked me from his twitter feed even though I have never commented or had any contact with him on twitter whatsoever.
I guess he reads Wings and methodically read every post and compared them with his followers, though think that would be weird.
Only explanation then is they have another list and I may be on it. I need a badge made “BLOCKED by a DAISY”
@ Robert Peffers, brilliant account of your home improvements. A tour de force! You had me in stiches. Hope it all works out in the end. Look forward to an update when convenient and I hope you are getting some help.
@Robert Peffers
Here’s your friend, I love the stuff:
http://www.jewson.co.uk/building-materials/plastering-plasterboard/plaster/one-coat-plaster/products/PRTLEUOC/thistle-universal-1-coat-plaster-nominal-bag-25kg/
yup heed
i think wgd was refering to shelagh at lbc
Does the logic of the article work the over way?
Lets say that England votes OUT while Scotland votes IN, and the combined IN vote wins by Scotland’s votes. Forcing UK to remain with EU, and then leaving UK afterwards with a choice it rejected seems a bit nasty. Would the author agree that Scotland does not get a second independence referendum if it is her votes that keep the UK in EU?
As UKOK hackdom smears Scots Daisley style with the tragedy in Yorkshire, this is actually even creepier, from same crew.
http://archive.is/ZK4ro
All The Graun’s lone wolves here, could easily be reading any UK media, starting at the Heil but slithering into the Graun.
Had an weird evening last night here in Devon mixing with folk not normally in our circle. Accountants, lawyers, suits,and mostly stuffy old fuddy duddy clients. Glad to say we felt quite out of place.
Firstly, the other half had to haud me back as a client commented that ‘Britain’ had won the football. Seriously…posh, well educated and ingnorant at the same time. I reminded him ‘Britain’ were playing Wales and so Britain won and lost. He looked at me as if I was mad. Mad as hell maybe.
Secondly, two posh, well educated investment brokers or such like, when questioned about the EU ref said Leaving would defo be bad for the markets, Europe etc., so much so that they reckoned that even if it was Leave that won they felt Cameron would rally the troops from all sides of Remain in Westminster and extend and delay any implementation of a withdrawal from the EU perhaps indefinitely. I hadn’t considered this but felt ukipers would surely riot in the streets.
Thirdly, when I said that Scotland almost certainly, and possibly NI, would leave the UK if Leave won one of them was in absolute agreement and was sure that would be the case. I liked him partly for saying that and partly because he could have been Michael Macintyre’s twin brother.
As I said, a weird evening.
Heed, is that for real? A cartoon about it? Good grief.
yesindyref2 says:
18 June, 2016 at 12:17 am
Heed, is that for real? A cartoon about it? Good grief.
Its what could be describe as total abrogation of any responsibility. Its so total, the cartoon’s lone wolves may aswell UK hacks at work.
If anyone’s in need of an emetic, here’s one. Gordon Brown didn’t only historically lie to Scots in 2014, him and his crew caused the violent deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.
This really could make you vomit.
http://archive.is/uNm6b
A lone wolf theme apparently (the Rowson cartoon). I don’t get it. The chap arrested didn’t seem the type to be glued to a laptop. More of a “Great British TV” viewer if the press accounts are to be believed. That’s a big IF of course.
Stephen Daisley supporting Shalagh Fogarty with Tweet :
“The hounding of @ShelaghFogarty is shameful. No civic political movement behaves like this”
Only problem is if he really does feel so strongly about that then perhaps he should also condemn his wee pal Spanner who tweeted :
“An apology from Britain First” underneath tweet is a picture of the face of ‘Britain First’ leader Paul Golding superimposed onto a Father Ted character with a Hitler moustache and giving what is supposed to be a Nazi salute.
Also some twat tweeted in response to this :
” Thought that was Salmond waving to the cult”
So much for all of the tolerance we are hearing about on TV !!
Now Stephen as you are so indignant on what you see as disrespectful….surely you must also agree that no civilised person would behave like this considering what has happened …..sorry but I really fail to see how this tweet by your twitter buddy is appropriate . Disgusting, cheap gutter humour.
Frankly it is grossly disrespectful… however not surprised considering the author of the tweet.
Await Stephen’s condemnation …..or perhaps not !!!
The Us will be in two minds whether to encourage an indyref2 after Brexit or not.
A failed indyref2 would kill indy for a generation.
They have to weigh up whether those pro-indies who voted for Brexit will abstain or vote No in an indyref2 or not.
They also have to weigh up whether those anti-indies who voted Remain will vote Yes in an indyref2 or not.
And so do we.
@Capella
I posted before about the LBC woman, that what she said was that the murder of an MP was on a totally different scale to the incidents in the Ref, and that the more extreme SNP supporters should leave her alone (though she did mention only the SNP in the Indy Ref incidents).
Since then she’s absented herself from twitter because of the “hatefest”, making herself the victim, rather than the somewhat stupid and one-sided offender. We’ve seen reasonable comments from politicians about threats they’ve had, and abuse they’ve received, but nothing about the totally disrespectful comments they make at times – within the rules – even in the House of Commons. No admissions, no apologies, no promises to reform themselves. They too wnat to be the victims, not the offenders, not those people we should be able to look up to and take as an example of how we should behave.
This cartoon to me, isn’t really about the guy arrested, who though he had computer skills, did gardening and other stuff, no evidence so far he was on twitter or forums, it’s about – us. And all like us who dare to criticise media and politicians.
And politicians who have hurled abuse at each other and shown lack of respect and extreme views, are now trying to deflect criticism of them, on to those people who engage on social media. And the traditional media is doing the same. They’re using this to fight their own battles.
But social media used moderately, is the People’s defence against both politicians and pulp media.
This needs watching carefully, and I stick to what I said before, we shouldn’t over-react to it, but choose our words carefully. Freedom of Speech – used properly and moderately – is our democracy, and our defence against relentless propoganda.
I could say more, but I won’t.
The Mayor of London lays the blame squarely at the feet of politicians for poisonous practices in this and PREVIOUS referendums and not the fault of the public
Sadiq Kahn will be getting a row for not toeing the party line Labour Policy 101 is never take the blame for anything
Cameron’s innocent it’s all Farage
They couldn’t last a day
@Dr Jim
Indeed. “It’s all social media’s fault, it’s the public, not us politicians, we’re blameless, we’re innocent”.
Well, go home and think again. We see you, we hear you, we read you, we know.
dads
This needs watching carefully, and I stick to what I said before, we shouldn’t over-react to it, but choose our words carefully. Freedom of Speech – used properly and moderately – is our democracy, and our defence against relentless propoganda.
I could say more, but I won’t.
i would like to second this post… be very very very careful about what you post anywhere on social media over the next week wrt this issue
i dont usually join in with the public grief such as say princess diane etc, but others do, and take such events to heart, careless comments can be picked up on and unleash a storm of public protest.
be careful folks
geeo, 17 June, 2016 at 11:23 pm
Wooft!!!
Great spot and spot on. As well as a subliminal painting of SNP supporters as the baddies, it can also imply that only Labour will speak out or have policies that could attract extremist violence.
Then again best not mention this, since it is the SNP who have lived with the very real threat from the British state since at least the 50’s. Worst point so far being murder of WMac.
I do worry sometimes about this and hope everyone is safe x
The worldly socialists find themselves isolated on a small island.
The British establishment still don’t get it.
They don’t care.
Morning all and what a beautiful morning it is! Not long now til we win our independence.The more little conversations we have,the sooner it’ll come.
Him…”the roads are a bl**dy disgrace.Potholes everywhere.”
Me….”Aye,but atleast you’ll be able to flash across London on the new cross rail.”
The raison d’etre for massie and Co’s article are to sell newspapers and create a bit of controversy without minding too much who gets hurt in the process.
The nastiness he alludes to in indyref was that drummed up by the London press. He talks about the fraying of tensions yet that condition was created and stirred up by the media aided by politicians.
They have created the same tensions again over Brexit. The failings and blatant propaganda of MSM are evident all the way through their history. It is there for all to see in its reporting of the Iraq conquest, through the financial crisis and indyref up to what we are seeing today.
Massie will in all likelihood write something scathing in opposition to indyref2 to sell a newspaper. I wouldn’t give him the time of day.
Sadly MSM has a trail of blood on its hands.
Subliminal messages cut both ways.
I like that Guardian cartoon. They are trying to smear and belittle the online community as sad little evil doers, but for those us for whom the Guardian is not the good guy, the subliminal undertone is the Guardian is terrified by the power of the online community. You cannot fight a rear guard action without first being in retreat.
Same with using Murray’s constituency office, and the Labour MP who whined about trauma he suffered having a sticker on his door, now runs bleating to the Police and BBC because the boogie man might be after him. What a big girls blouse. Our police have better things to do than baby sit arseholes.
This IS wilful propaganda, the BBC and media IS playing with our heads, but if you are alert to a subliminal message, then it isn’t subliminal. If you fear you are under surveillance, then either your stalkers aren’t very professional or they want you to know you are under surveillance. In this day and age, with the sophistication of technology, you wouldn’t know if you were being watched. Same with your PCs.
The point is, the way to fight propaganda is truth. Truth isn’t a numbers game all about more people seeing the true story than the propaganda. It’s not even that truth debunks any particular lie, it’s that truth flushes out the liar, and once the liar is exposed, their integrity is compromised and the potency of their future propaganda is greatly diminished. There is suddenly a subliminal question mark hanging over every word they say.
Case in point. The BBC propaganda doesn’t work on us because we are alert to it. We are not the targets of their propaganda, we are lost to them. Their propaganda is succour for their believers, the BBC faithful. The ones in Neo’s Matrix who still have the plug in their necks.
What really scares the deadwood press and UKOK TV is that they are now getting less and less return from their propaganda. They are moving in ever decreasing circles. More and more of us ignore the lie but see the liar, caught red handed lying again.
This media is not our problem. They are vulnerable like never before. Every media story is littered with those subliminal question marks. Our weakness is not being compelled to listen to them for our news, it is not having a voice of our own to drive home the truth. It’s a slow process when the truth goes out on drip feed, but truth is kryptonite, and even a liar who lies for your side is left compromised.
Keep it coming BBC. Keep it coming. You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you. Every lie you spout or story you twist sends all of us the subliminal reminder that you are a dirty liar.
My ears and eyes are closed to the MSM Breeks. 🙂
Loved your point “You cannot fight a rear guard action without first being in retreat.” 😉
@scottieDog,
Quite agree with everything. It is nauseating this morning watching the media try to absolve themselves by deflecting onto politicians. Never mind the poisonous editorials written daily in newspapers putting their views on politicians utterances. The Daily Mail was among the worst offenders,but like all the rest they drip crocodile tears for a young woman after probably contributing to her untimely death.
I for one know who is responsible and I will not forget. They were not fit to lace her shoes. Utterly irresponsible and utterly culpable.
Bob… FFS, turn the TV/radio off, grab a beer, a cigarette and watch some favourite Youtube music videos… It’s better for your health.
It is only going to get more dire in medialand in the coming days.
FFS SNP BADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD The Herald Headline
Scottish man Thomas Mair charged with murdering MP Jo Cox
Unlike the majority of posters on here, I am acquainted with Allan Massie. I used to sub-edit his Saturday Scotsman column, and have exchanged the time of day with him at rugby matches. I do not always agree with him, but, I admire his work as a journalist and author.
Allan is an old school Briton – not a rare breed among people of his age who are Scots-born, middle-class, educated at a public school, before going on to Oxbridge. Men who did National Service and grew up to respect how one small island ruled a global empire. To me, he comes across as a “One Nation” Tory.
One Nation Tories are now an endangered species in the modern Tory Party, which is controlled by noveau riche upstart crows. Allan Massie and his ilk may not like Cameron and Osborne, but, they positively detest the shallowness of such as Johnson and Farage.
Therefore, AM and Co have a problem; the I’m all right Jack, but crush the workers and the poor is not the thinking of men such as he. Yes, he is doing well in his country house down there in Selkirk, but, he has no objection to the poor getting richer and can see the unfairness of some current Tory policies.
I think he can see grave problems ahead if the Brexiters win. His was, I feel, a very good analysis of what could happen if Brexit wins. I could find little to disagree with in what he wrote. It was, as I would expect from AM, a reasonable, well-argued case.
scottyDog @ 08:14
Yes,the MSM/BBC have questions to answer,I watched Ali’s funeral and was struck by the stories of the friendship between the great man and Billy Crystal.One,a black Muslim,the other a white Jew,the warmth of their friendship flowed right through the screen,I felt the love.
Is it too much to ask,is it too much to expect,fairness and accuracy of reporting,in the MSM/BBC,no it is not too much to ask,not to much to expect,we cannot lower our expectations,the MSM/BBC must raise their standards.
Out of respect to the victims of the recent tragedies,the MSM/BBC must be held continuously to account,we should never accept the deaths of innocent vctims as the ‘price’ of the inequality,within the journalism of the MSM/BBC,as the ‘price’ of biased reporting of the MSM/BBC,fairness and accuracy of reporting,is the minimum standard.
There is a better way,the right way,the loved ones and famillies of all the innocent victims deserve better,we all deserve better.
@Socrates @ 9.20
I respect your knowledge of the industry and individuals, but how do you reconcile Massies position today, with his vile and hateful writings up to this point?
How does one do a 180 at his age? Is it simply about selling papers? No matter how you write it up?
Him and his ilk are responsible for creating this hate filled environment, using us in the role of whipping boy previously, or the SNP.
Sure, taking this one piece might make him look reasoned, but I would guess he will change again.
@Bob Mack
Yeah I had to leave the room as my mother was glued to all the coverage and tributes on the BBC. It made me feel physically sick how all the agencies who lets face it played an indirect role in Jo Cox’s death climbed over each other to pay tributes..
David: “The Herald Headline: “Scottish man Thomas Mair charged with murdering MP Jo Cox
I wondered which newspaper would be the first to say he was born in Scotland. I read he left when a toddler, but that isn’t the point. We must understand he’s not a Brit.
Allan Massie’s moan at the Little Englander mentality of many Brexiters shows a naivety which is almost amazing in a seemingly otherwise intelligent journalist / historian. Most of my friends and family who voted No in September 2014 realised the next day when angry Cameron showed zero statesmanship and championed EVEL that they had made a mistake in voting No. It’s taken Allan Massie over 20 months to even partially grasp that fact.
Massie’s article implies that he’d vote Yes in a second Indy referendum only if we vote next week to exit the EU. Again this is hugely naive. Since joining the Common Market in the 70s, the Tories have done their level best to tear each other apart over Europe, yet they still get elected most of the time. Even if we vote to stay in the EU, the internecine warfare will continue and our EU jacket will still be hanging on a shoogly nail because we will always be seen as the reluctant Europeans, especially when the Tories are in power, which is most of the time.
Massie wants to be Scottish, British and European, but even he is beginning to realise that he will probably only be able to achieve 2 of the 3 and that is Scottish and European. The grim and stark alternative is British only. Just about every economic, political and social commentator of any note has come out against Bexit so Mr Massie if right to be worried. – he just hasn’t thought it all through yet! He’ll get there in the end
@Socrates MacSporran. Very interesting points, thanks. Maybe Massie is clutching at straws fiercely, as an Empire Scot, 70 years post-Empire. What will it take to make him realise the Empire which Proud Scots did so much to build is gone, and anything positive of its legacy has disappeared too. Britain was always something of a chimera, and now it is a shell. Those who inhabit that shell don’t share the Liberal Imperial values that he was raised on. Essentially Massie is a Liberal Imperialist, who believed in the good brought about by the Pax Brittannica. Michael Fry and Chris Harvie were once fierce critics of the SNP and the independence project. But now they are converts, having concluded that the core values for which they stand do not fit with the shell politics of Britannia and can only be realised through an independent Scotland.
I don’t know about anybody else but will be glad when this absolutely disgraceful, vile, hate filled and nasty EU referendum campaign has come to an end.
Instead of providing a positive campaign and giving people
facts that would help to inform in making a decision.
What the people of the UK have been subjected to by the
unionists on both sides of the argument, is the same
tactics they used in the Scottish independence
referendum.
what ever the decision is next week, I suspect the bad feelings this referendum has generated the lenght and braedth of the will take a long time to go away
Capella says:
18 June, 2016 at 12:33 am
A lone wolf theme apparently (the Rowson cartoon). I don’t get it. The chap arrested didn’t seem the type to be glued to a laptop. More of a “Great British TV” viewer if the press accounts are to be believed. That’s a big IF of course
We all know the where and why they came after the “cybernats.” a smear unelected SLab lord for life Foulkes says he invented. Well this is who rancid The Graun’s coming after here. Its not specifically smearing their cybernats but a general catch all, ingrate consumers of their ghastly wares, that wont just shut it and go away.
Consume, pay your licence fee, their salaries, laud their genius, vote how they say and rancid The Graun’s lone wolves will turn into pretty little lambs to be shepherded and educated by our noble and honest Massie style gods of the UKOK tory BBC led media.
@Peter McCulloch
I agree. This week in particular, has left me slack jawed at the level of insanity on show.
What will be interesting is whether the level of turnout will be affected. Just think, what Scotland endured, and yet, turnout was record breaking.
Just saw the Herald headline, about the Scot, Thomas Mair, being charged.
That will help our image south of the Border. FFS.
Ignore the BUM – it brings forth shite on a daily basis! As for Horsestall……..
Sorry my post 18 June, 2016 at 10:04 am vanished before I had finished correcting it.
to correct the last part I was talking about the length and breadth of the UK
@Valerie 18 June, 2016 at 10:13 am
Turnout has also been my concern, and as you and other posters have already pointed out the fact that the murderer
Thomas Mair is Scots born will be used against us.
Soctrates: “Unlike the majority of posters on here, I am acquainted with Allan Massie.”
I remember the novelist Frederic Lindsay making mince meat out of Massie’s off-beam view of modern Scottish history.
“He makes himself an easy target”, said Lindsay, “But I hate doing it because he gave my last novel a good review!”
Thomas Mair is Scots born will be used against us.
Everthing and anything is being used by UKOK toryboy world. A nasty old unionist takes another dump on his scotland region again. Right down to the raggedy old Scotland flag, rancid The Graun is very displeased with its scotland region for not Leaving the EU with England.
http://archive.is/YuoDd
“On the one hand, an occasional outbreak of intolerable moral smugness; on the other, fans of the national football side who, when they lurch down foreign streets want, like drunken labradors, only to be liked. “That Man to Man, the world o’er, Shall brothers be for a’ that” is a sentiment that informs Scotland’s predilection for the EU. Who could have guessed it might save Cameron’s career, to say nothing of the UK’s future?”
If you thought a Scot screaming “Britain first!” would detest the SNP … you’d be correct.
@ heedtracker, so the Rowson cartoon is an attempt to link the “lone wolf”, as Thomas Mair was described, with the “cybernats”, as we are described.
It never occurred to me that the MSM could be so blatent in scapegoating the one sector of the public which sees through them. But diverting attention away from the creators of this hate-fest onto the innocent bystanders is obviously the goal.
We must stay alert.
Apparently when asked his name in court this morning he replied “Death to ("Tractor" - Ed)s,freedom for Britain” I don’t think he is SNP.
Funny thing about Massie is that against my better judgement, I …. well, wouldn’t go so far as to say I like him, but back in 2014, if ever there was a positive case to made for the Union, I thought he stood as good chance as any to make a fist of it. It certainly wasn’t Better Together making all the running, but it always struck me that the cogs in Massies head did at least turn, and that given enough time, he would eventually come to the reluctant conclusion that Independence was THE logical alternative. Even when spouting Better Together pish, I got the distinct impression he wasn’t convinced by it either, but he was picked for their debating team so he’d manfully struggle through to deliver their duly allotted pish, albeit with a tad more polish and dare I say it finesse.
I don’t know the man personally. But the cynic me wonders whether his popularity index for weddings, funerals, kids parties and Unionist TV debates peaked when he found himself at the centre of the Independence referendum, but in the aftermath his price tag for appearances as a pro union Scot has depreciatesd proportionately as Scotland’s independence has slipped down the agenda. Is that too cynical?
He may not be converted to our side, yet, but he is a Scot who’s fortunes ebb and flow in keeping with ours, and maybe he just needs to find his own way to live with us, … and his inner cringe.
Alex Massie is Allan Massie’s son. Think the two are getting mixed up in some of the posts above.
I noticed an item in the Daily Telegraph business section that said the Guardian are going to get rid of 250 or so staff presumably includes journalists.
Mair might be a Scot, but so what? He is one of the Proudscotbuts we saw rioting in George Square. The Proudscotbuts are not us.
Anyone who still buys the Sunday Herald or the National needs their fucking heads read… they are the SAME company as the Herald… with ghe same agenda.
We have been subjected to the last week of “British/NotEnglish football hooligans in France”… and now the fucking brutal murder of Jo Cox is down to a guy being touted as a Scot by the despicable scum.
To be honest, I thought the establishment would have waited until after the referendum to try and paint the Englishman Thomas Mair as Scottish… either the Herald Group didn’t get the memo… or the establishment actually are double bluffing here, and have dragged public opinion in England to the ‘Remain’ position… only to spend the next week ensuring a leave vote. The whole thing is fucked up.
Capella says:
18 June, 2016 at 10:41 am
@ heedtracker, so the Rowson cartoon is an attempt to link the “lone wolf”, as Thomas Mair was described, with the “cybernats”, as we are described.
Conservatives on both UKOK sides are using Mair for their politics and that Graun creep’s no different. All of them, from Gordon Brown to the Herald, the Graun, UKIPsters, you name it, they all look at this tragedy and work out ways to exploit it. Outfits like The Graun’s got an English tory lite audience to sell to, Brown’s got his UKOK BetterTogether agenda to boost and ofcourse the deaths of perhaps a million people and a 20 million refugee crisis, to pretend his Labour party had nothing to do with.
All of it stems from the core of most establishment conservative politics. You can watch the exact same smear campaigning going on in the US and its just as sleazy and desperate.
Allan Massie is a crazy old British Unionist who probably has pictures of Waterloo and the Relief of Mafeking on the walls of his borders mansion,he also writes historical fiction,
Alex Massie writes 500/1000 word puff pieces for anyone about anything as long as he gets paid and is the son of Allan,
both write fiction.
“Would the author agree that Scotland does not get a second independence referendum if it is her votes that keep the UK in EU?”
There would be no grounds for one in those circumstances.
The Legal system in England ramping up the expences transporting Mair 196 miles to London (why ?) is Leeds Crown Court not equippted to deal with murder trails.
This nutcase spent the first two years of his life in Scotland and the next 50 years in England never to return.
The National is not trying to highlight Thomas Mair’s roots, not effing much. This from the just the first 16 lines of the article.
“SCOTTISH relatives of Thomas Mair suspected of shooting and stabbing Labour MP Jo Cox spoke of their shock at the murder.”
“Kilmarnock-born Mair, 52, moved down south with his mother Mary and grandmother Helen when he was about two years old.”
“he still has family in Ayrshire,”
“his maternal grandmother, who was originally from Ayr”
“Thomas Alexander Mair was born August 12, 1963 in Kilmarnock.”
“His mother Mary was born in August 1946 in Irvine”
“Mair’s father James was born in Stranraer”
“James’s parents Thomas Mair and Helen McLelland were married in June 1940 in Ayr.”
And what the hell does this even mean from Das Telegraph?
“Despite being born in Kilmarnock, Scotland, a decade-old website posting identified Mair as a subscriber to S. A. Patriot, a South African magazine that was published by the pro-apartheid group, the White Rhino Club.”
They will try hard to link him in some way to Scottish independence but it might prove hard when he stands up in court today and says ‘Death to traytors, freedom for Britain’. Sounds like his sympathies lie elsewhere to me.
Dear Stuart ah luv you nae kiddin.
Seriously though, thank you for explaining and putting everything
into perspective, even for silver surfers like me.
As I’ve said tedious times before, I started supporting Independence in the early 70s, having never thought about it before.
A trigger, perhaps THE trigger for me, was someone I was close to pointing out in perhaps 1972 or 1973, how biased, parochial, dismissive, patronising, and factually incorrect, any BBC coverage of Scotland was (and other London-based media). Instead of just watching with half an eye as most people do, I watched and listened with attention, and it didn’t take long for me to realise just how bad it was. I hadn’t noticed before, it just washed over me.
Ever since that I see the news, watch the programs, look at the documentaries, and constantly that message is driven home. There is an institutional bias in all London-based media against Scotland and Scots, in fact anything to do with Scotland. The same is true for Wales, Ireland (both parts), the North of England, in fact any of the “provinces” of the UK. Basically anything outside London, and the South-East, even Essex gets hit by it, and even the “East End”.
Personally I don’t advise people NOT to watch or pay attention to the BBC or media, I advise them to watch, read and listen more carefully, and more critically.
yesindyref2… exactly.
When the eyes become open, it is impossible to close them again.
@Brian McHugh
Yeah. But knowledge and Truth is as Breeks says, the reply to the propaganda. So for instance if there was a hypothetical program on the BBC about General Wade of Rest and Be Thankful for General Wade fame (ironically it wasn’t him), who might according to the BBC propaganda have brought roads to Scotland, and thereby helped advance civilisation in Scotland as part of the benefits of the Union of 1707, all the knowledgeable indy supporter has to do with a casual comment is something like:
“yeah, standard military practice, he built roads so the Government troops – UK Government troops – could move fast to quell any uprisings by restless oppressed natives. Just like the Romans did”.
@Scot Finlayson, 11.22
“both write fiction.”
Ouch, that hurt. Bravo sir.
almannysbunnet:
Strange ‘The National’ did not (rightly) think it relevant to focus on the nationalities of murdered toddler, Liam Fee’s two killers. Both are English.
Neither (rightly) did ‘The National’ print the places of birth and places of marriage of Liam Fee’s grandparents.
A quite bizarre focus of attention by ‘The National’ on the Mrs Cox’s killer’s family history. What is the relevance of these family details? Absolutely none.
Hands up guilty. I didn’t know there were 2 Massies.
It is absolutely ridiculous that Unionists are claiming Britain First, a militant Unionist organization (extremely popular with Rangers fans), has parallels to Scottish independence. It has parallels but to the sectarian psychopaths in the West coast.
The guy is obviously a Schizophrenic. He just wrote an article in the Spectator blaming the MP shooting on the divisive rhetoric used by far right wing campaigns…Apparently completely oblivious to the fact that he is one of the biggest mouth pieces for them. He clearly needs help.
Ah, Allan…That makes more sense.
Brian McHugh,
“Anyone who still buys the Sunday Herald or the National needs their fucking heads read… they are the SAME company as the Herald… with ghe same agenda.”
They take us for idiots for a reason.
Many of us are idiots.
You could at least have corrected my typo Rock. 😉 …agreed though.
I don’t know whether to believe him or not. I think he is most likely using an argument which he hopes will influence people in the way he wants.
BUT I do know that my own mum, who was an unshakeable No vote in the Scottish referendum in spite of all the efforts of the rest of the family, announced to us that she will vote for independence if the UK leaves the EU.
So I do believe that some people would change their vote in these circumstances. It could be enough to tip the scales.
Massie will write anything he thinks will sell newspapers or promote his own deluded sense of his own importance. He will flip from one argument to another just to sell a few more words.
Would he really really vote Yes? I struggle to find that at all believeable.
Postal votes. That’s the reason this article has been penned.
I heard a rumour the postal votes were breaking for leave. Can remain catch the 1 or 2 % on the day?
Oh FFS I thought we had heard the last bullshit about the National and the Sunday Herald.
Thomas Mair is in fact Scottish,as reported in most newspapers.
I will stop buying the Sunday Herald and the National when they become propaganda vehicles and stop reporting the truth.
I don’t have to like the truth.
The fact that they are published by Newsquest which is a division of Gannett PLC, a US company which publishes several hundred newspapers all over the place, is only important because they have to cover their costs or they will be pulled
Perhaps Alex Salmond, who is now writing for the National, should stop doing so.
Good to see the Sunday Herald sailing past the SOS in sales
I have to admit that I have seen quite a few people on various sites declaring that if UK votes ‘leave’, they will vote ‘yes’ in IndyRef2. It would seem that many ‘no’ people DO see ‘out’ as the worse case scenario.
Having said that, I know people who were ‘yes’, voting ‘leave’. I BELIEVE that they will still vote ‘yes’ in an IndyRef, but don’t know that for sure. My own family is split down the middle – two for ‘stay’, two for ‘leave’… (and this has caused a lot of arguments around here! This whole thing has been VERY divisive – vile, frankly!) Not sure how they will vote in an Indy… Once, I would have been ABSOLUTELY SURE they were ‘yes’ – I KNOW they were ‘yes’… But these days, with all the false information, and all the arguing – and all the bad feeling that may ensue, who knows…
So as Nicola says, nothing can be taken for granted. And in the short space of time left, there is much work to do.
Having said all that, I can see a rainbow or two in either result…
There are some right unforgiving ba.. er people posting on here. Like you, I may have my doubts about the sincerity of his recent missive, but unlike you, I’m happy to welcome it for whatever it’s worth. Consider this:
+ Do you really think that you can win indy only by converting a few more people that think exactly like you? I’m not a Tory, and have never expected much support for indy from that particular quarter, but I’ll welcome whatever support it gets from anyone. The more the merrier! The whole point of indy was and is a genuine “taking back control”. What the politics of that may turn out to be is for later. First things first!
+ Like you I may doubt the committment to indy that the “conversion” implies. Yes, it may be half-hearted, and yes, it may be more intended to encourage a “Remain” vote in England than truly promote Scottish independence, but it’s a step in the right direction from someone who finds it much harder than you or I to take that step. And here’s the thing: someone who was in the “no” camp is putting down an indelible public marker that declares there is something to this indy business after all. That shift may be small, but it may count a whole lot more with many BT waverers than anything you or I could ever post here.
Let’s live up to the reputation of the “Yes” campaign of being positive and inclusive, and give Massie pére a bit of encouragement. He’s not quite there yet, and may still backslide if the EUref goes the way he prefers, but he’s beginning to see what we have all been banging on about for so long. So if he ever gets a chance to read this, I say “well begun, dear chap, taking the first step is perhaps the hardest, and God speed you on your way!” Oh, and have a word with your lad too whiles you’re at it, he could do worse than follow your good example…
tarisgal said:
I’m truly sorry to hear that. The only thing I might suggest as a way of restoring family (and other) good relations is to tell them that if you truly believe in Scottish independence (since you voted “yes”), why are you validating a British Tory referendum by voting “Leave”? Like it or loathe it, it’s only a “Remain” vote in Scotland that will bring independence any nearer. What do you think it will be like to live in a UK in the control of Tory yoon ultras? Once Scotland has its independence, if there are enough anti-EU people like yourselves, we can have our own referendum and decide for ourselves…
Robert J Sutherland says:
“I’m truly sorry to hear that. The only thing I might suggest as a way of restoring family (and other) good relations is to tell them that if you truly believe in Scottish independence (since you voted “yes”), why are you validating a British Tory referendum by voting “Leave”? Like it or loathe it, it’s only a “Remain” vote in Scotland that will bring independence any nearer. What do you think it will be like to live in a UK in the control of Tory yoon ultras? Once Scotland has its independence, if there are enough anti-EU people like yourselves, we can have our own referendum and decide for ourselves…”
Yep – we’ve been there too. But somehow those ‘leavers’ seem to believe that the Tory led government won’t always be in control. When I ask what other party are likely to get in in the next few years, they admit they don’t know but the SNP will mitigate much of the WM damage and we are likely to be in a lot better position than if we lived in England. I am now using the latest post of ‘Brexit should end the Barnett Formula, says Lord Owen” to back my argument that if the ‘Leave’ wins, already we are seeing the future. How will we afford ‘mitigations’… I haven’t had a reply yet…
I have a very good video up on my TL which I found really interesting – a Professor in Liverpool University who studies & teaches EU law. Don’t know if any here have seen it. I’ll put the URL up but please do remove it, Rev., if I’d done that incorrectly (sorry if I wasn’t supposed to) …
https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/
My ‘leavers’ are watching as we speak – I hope that it makes a difference.
tarisgal said:
Yes, it’s kind of ironic that. Depending on the SNP to save us from the worst excesses of a system that fundamentally doesn’t give a toss about us. It’s another kind of cringe, really.
Well, actually, it’s worse than that. I’ve been anticipating with dread a Tory+UKIP government in London for some time now. They think that WM is the be-all-and-end-all. That’s what they mean by “taking control”. If they win, they will not sit back, their next move will be to scupper Holyrood. Then what…?
As somebody recently wisely said or wrote, the Brexiteers are essentially English Nationalists, they just can’t say that out loud. (And certainly not up here.) Any Scot who is tempted to support them, whatever their views on the EU might be, is missing that essential truth.
Here’s wishing you can convince your folk not to undermine their own future by being fooled by xenophobic right-wing distraction politics now.
“Divide and conquer”, the old, old story…
Dave McEwan Hill,
“Oh FFS I thought we had heard the last bullshit about the National and the Sunday Herald.
Thomas Mair is in fact Scottish,as reported in most newspapers.”
Why are you getting annoyed?
As a lobbyist for The National it is your job to be their apologist.
Thomas Mair left Scotland as a toddler and has never returned. He has nothing to do with Scotland.
He shouted “Britain First” not “Scotland First”.
There is no reason whatsoever for The National to stress his Scottishness ten times in an article.
Rock said
I’m sure DMH can speak for himself, but there’s no need to get so personal. I think you are making just a little too much of it, even though like you I found the story somewhat odd. I reckoned that some reporter had simply found a way to research people’s birth and marriage records, had got rather carried away with it all, but at least (from their point of view) had got a piece out on the back of it. No more than that. In essence it was showing that Mair had nothing to do with Scotland besides his origins.
So no big deal, then.
Robert J. Sutherland,
“I think you are making just a little too much of it”
I hadn’t even mentioned it in my original post. I only responded as The National’s lobbyist mentioned it.
My post was addressed to Brian McHugh, not to The National’s lobbyist.
My point is that The National does not support independence. Its only purpose it to milk gullible independence supporters.