The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


The undecided

Posted on June 20, 2016 by

Alert readers will already know that the closest thing this site has to a position on this week’s EU referendum is that supporters of Scottish independence living in Scotland should vote Remain.

(And even that view is conditional on whether you consider Scottish independence the most important political goal of your life. If it’s more important to you to be out of the EU than out of the UK then clearly you’ll be voting Leave and there’s nothing we could say that would change your mind.)

undecided1

But what if you happen to be a supporter of Scottish independence who DOESN’T live in Scotland? What then?

Because that, of course, is what I am. And since the EU referendum was announced, I’ve found myself in the unfamiliar position of being a Don’t Know. Several months of campaigning later I’m none the wiser, and time’s running out.

I’ve been pro-EU my whole life, right up until last summer. The aftermath of the Greek election and referendum was a horrible jolt, in which what’s supposedly a benign and democratic entity essentially mounted a coup against a sovereign nation – not using tanks and bombers but banks, under the command of Wolfgang Schauble.

Now, the Greece situation was complex and nuanced and I’m not going to get into all the rights and wrongs of it here, but the sight of a country’s electorate expressing their wishes unambiguously, by a thumping 23-point margin, and then simply having them steamrollered by EU “technocrats”, sent a chill up my spine that’s never gone away.

Throw in the Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership (TTIP), and suddenly the European project looked a lot less like a benevolent shared social democracy and a lot more like a neoliberal straitjacket.

(“Stay and reform it from within!” is every bit as spectacularly idiotic an argument in this referendum as it was in the last one, for mostly the same reasons.)

But all of this is actually somewhat beside the point. Because when it comes down to it I very much doubt that the outcome of the EU referendum will make a great deal of detectable difference to me either way.

undecided2

Don’t get me wrong – the arguments that it’ll be bad for the UK economy as a whole seem fairly cut-and-dried. But whenever the UK economy grows and share prices rise and everyone in the City of London gleefully gives themselves an even bigger bonus than usual, none of that ever seems to trickle down to me (or anyone I know) in any way that I can identify.

When the UK economy “booms”, what that really means for most normal people is house prices shooting even further out of reach while wages continue to stagnate and inequality increases. George Osborne’s “warning” that a Brexit would see house prices drop 18% sounded like a pretty compelling reason to vote Leave to anyone despairing of ever getting on the housing ladder as the market carries on frantically inflating yet another overheated bubble.

(If you’re a homeowner and you’re voting Remain because of the economy, what you’re actually doing is protecting your own investment at the expense of people less well-off than you. That’s a perfectly rational and reasonable position to take, but it doesn’t qualify you for the moral high ground, so give the righteous angst a rest, eh?)

Similarly, there’s also a perfectly plausible argument that Brexit would lead to higher wages at the lower end of the scale, with decreased availability of labour through tighter immigration controls leading to a higher premium on said labour, that being the nature of markets. If you’re in more demand as a worker, you can charge more for your services.

(There are good counter-arguments to that too – mainly that stagnating wages are far more a deliberate ideological choice of right-wing governments than an economic consequence, and they can still force wages down with punitive welfare measures.)

The point is, I have no trouble in understanding why Brexit would be bad for the profits of tax-dodging multinational corporations and shareholders. It’s a lot less clear why and how it would hurt the vast bulk of normal people.

(It’s rather like the oil-price argument in Scotland. A high oil price is obviously good for business and the government, which takes in more corporate taxes. But when it plummets, most people – excluding those who lose jobs in the oil industry, obviously – actually benefit significantly from lower fuel costs, and the net effect is a large transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor and a reduction in inequality, something even the most socialist governments struggle to achieve.)

But we’re still bodyswerving the elephant in the room, which is that this site’s chief concern is Scottish independence, and that the result of the referendum could have a major impact on that goal.

If the UK votes Leave and Scotland votes Remain, the democratic case for a second indyref is more or less irresistible – the 2014 No vote was explicitly premised on a guarantee of continued EU membership otherwise imperilled by independence.

bettertogethereu

But do we want that? On the one hand, the polls on independence have barely shifted in the last 21 months. On the other hand, a majority of polls DO show a (narrow) Yes majority in the specific context of a vote to leave the EU.

brexitindy

A significant number of Unionist commentators and newspapers have publicly said that they’d very seriously reconsider their position on independence were the UK to vote Leave. Business is overwhelmingly in favour of the EU.

Media coverage in Indyref 2 would therefore almost certainly be – at the very worst – considerably more fair and balanced than it was the first time round. Couple that with the fact that Yes would be notionally starting with a lead rather than 30 points behind and suddenly the 6% switch required to win looks temptingly achievable.

Most of the calmer voices in the Yes movement have long considered 2021 a more propitious time for a second referendum. But that’s still half a decade of unpredictable events away, and if the UK was still in Europe then few of the fundamentals that led to the No win of 2014 would have changed.

Would it be better from a Yes perspective to take the bird in the hand rather than gamble on the bird in the bush? A post-Brexit indyref would have all the advantages noted above, but we can’t sensibly say where things might stand in 2021. Five years, as they say, is a long time in politics.

(The biggest practical downside of a quick second indyref would likely be that there’s a very real and very powerful resentment among No voters about the prospect of one. The aforementioned factors might outweigh that, or might not. Feelings are still raw.)

So it’s not yet entirely clear whether a Remain vote is preferable on its own merits to a Leave, nor is it clear which of them is the best result from the perspective of Scottish independence. All that leaves to go on are the campaigns. And to tell you the truth, readers, I’m going to have a really hard time voting for either one of them.

Remain’s has been abysmal almost beyond words. Constructed since the beginning entirely from a politician’s perspective rather than the public’s, it’s been a wretchedly faithful and miserable re-run of Project Fear with the volume turned up to 11.

Possibly the nadir was Alistair Darling lining up beside George Osborne to threaten a “punishment budget” that echoed the Unionist parties’ indyref refusal of a currency union, but there have been plenty of other low points to choose from, including the desperate clutching at the awful murder of Jo Cox.

osbornedarling

The Leave campaign, on the other hand, has been riddled with all the crude economic lies and hypocrisies of “Better Together”, but with an added side-serving of appalling flat-out racism that makes Scottish Labour’s grotesque pejorative talk of “foreigners” look tame by comparison.

ukipbp

I didn’t want to be on the same team as David Cameron, George Osborne, Alistair Darling and JK sodding Rowling last time and I still don’t. Iain Duncan Smith, George Galloway, Nigel Farage and Katie Hopkins on the other is no sort of alternative.

(Both sides, it should be noted, do have isolated voices of calm reason, like Nicola Sturgeon for Remain and Gisela Stuart for Leave. Every party except UKIP has senior parliamentarians on both sides of the debate. Trade union leaders too are split, as are party memberships.)

I’ve barely had a leaflet, nobody from either side has knocked on my door, and I think I’ve seen a single incidence of street campaigning from each side, both extremely low-key, in either Bath or Bristol – two cities with a combined population of over half a million people, whose votes nobody seems very interested in winning.

Helpful literature has been almost non-existent. The sole honourable exception has been the thoroughly excellent Wee Bleu Book put together by two SNP MEPs, but there’s been no serious attempt to get printed copies of it into people’s hands, and a huge percentage of the electorate is never going to download a PDF, especially if they don’t know it exists – as far as we know the Scottish media hasn’t mentioned it once.

(It’s a bit of a disgrace that the combined might of every mainstream UK political party can’t manage to scare up the money to put a half-decent publication into voters’ hands when a poky little website like this can print 250,000 copies of a 72-page book by itself and distribute it to every corner of the country. The UK government’s pitiful excuse of a pamphlet was a waste of paper.)

The grassroots campaigns, in so far as they’ve existed at all, have been no help either. Irritating, aggressive, self-righteous lectures from Remainers have been every bit as repellent (in the literal sense of the word) as the wild xenophobic rantings of Leavers. Being ordered to vote one way or another by some numbnuts on Facebook on pain of being either a “fascist” or a “traitor” has the effect of driving me – and I suspect most undecideds – the opposite way.

So three days out I still genuinely don’t know how I’ll vote. I’ll go to the polling station – I don’t believe in abstaining – but I haven’t ruled out a spoiled paper like the one below that I dropped into the ballot box in May 2015, unable in any conscience to vote for any of the candidates offered to me.

ballotballs1

The UK’s entire political establishment should be ashamed of itself. The biggest decision the UK has made in perhaps its entire democratic history has been tarnished by two abominably dreadful campaigns, rendered into a coin-toss based on impossible guesswork and utter contempt for just about everyone on both sides.

The one upside is that it’s been educational. For all that a campaigner can try to put themselves in the shoes of an undecided voter, nothing compares to actually being one. If and when we get to a second indyref, I’ll have a far better idea than ever before of how you DON’T win people over to your side.

But that’s no help as far as Thursday goes. And right now, the idea of Donald Trump becoming President of the USA in a few months’ time and wiping the entire species off the face of the planet in a nuclear holocaust is starting to feel less like impending doom and more like mankind’s last hope of a saving grace.

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700 to “The undecided”

  1. Andrew McLean says:

    Grouse Beater,

    I can do better than that for summing up the level of debate

    Tory Dominic Peacock, a member of the East Riding of Yorkshire Council, said he was “sick and tired” of hearing about the murder of Yorkshire MP Mrs Cox and vowing to ‘donate the steam off my p*ss” in memory of Jo Cox.

    Stay Classy Conservatives!

  2. Almannysbunnet says:

    @Dr Jim says: 11:42 am
    I get the feeling we’re all being had and there’s some machiavellian Tory plot

    Couldn’t agree more, they have almost pulled of the trick of being seen as the government and the opposition. No matter how you vote you end up with them.

    @Ian Brotherhood says:10:36 am
    Watch Davidson reach for the stars.

    Watch her overreach more like. She is a con artist in a con party. We know that up here and it won’t take long for them to figure her out doon sooth. Mind you anything is possible. They seem to have taken to BoJo or is it BloJo, who’s convinced England that he is actually the reincarnation of Churchill.

  3. Dorothy Devine says:

    Tinto Chiel , loved this,

    “Ruthie will still be bouncing around shouting, “Look at me! Look at me!” like a Duracell bunny with skitters. |

  4. papadox says:

    @manandboy 10:55 am

    Couldn’t agree more she is a very dangerous fool and will get her material rewards which I presume is her goal. If she can live with that so be it. Unfortunately a lot of lives will be ruined in her wake. That’s the Westminster way, makes you proud to be brittish. She knows f… all about f… all just a figurehead and loudmouth to be used and to front for the establishment.

  5. heedtracker says:

    “The only thing I have problems with are negroes. And I don’t know why.”

    If it is a large Remain win in Scotland and Brexit, I’d go for referendum 2 within months. There’s only three yoonster MP’s left in Scotland and they’re big puds, Holyrood’s SNP and that’s despite tactical votes mess.

    The ever more ghastly BBC led UKOK Project Fear’s turned out to be total bullshit and everyone knows it. Scottish media’s a bad joke and the whole UKOK freak out spent itself on empty fear mongering. Even vote Nob orders.com cant come back from raising a giant new EU border at Calais. Even likes of JK Rowling’s and her million’s cant undo the historic The Vow shyst, no matter how much she thinks she owns Scotland, with her island of lawyers.

    Lets do it, if tomorrow goes like it might. If we don’t or there’s no Brexit, we’re probably stuck in this farce union under the stifling control of red or blue tory England, for a generation, a long long generation, anyway.

    Friday could be a brave new world, for Scotland.

  6. Dr Jim says:

    Alex Salmond once said he thought Kezia Dugdale had a future in politics, just not in the Labour party

    In deference to Alex, where could you put her?

    Best not to answer that one I think

  7. Tinto Chiel says:

    Yes, Ian B @11.45, but we will need more lamp posts for all the spivs and chancers El Gordo’s light touch has created.

    And their cruisers all have warp speed turbos.

  8. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thanks Dorothy @1228 but I stole half of it from a phrase in Sunset Song.

    But nowadays it’s called recycling.

    😉

  9. Almannysbunnet says:

    If Ruth Davidson gets anywhere near real power Scotland will feel her tank tracks right across its throat!

  10. Capella says:

    I doubt if the Tories care which way the vote goes. They intend to rake it in whatever. Here’s a trailer for “The Riot Club” which is about the Bullers “I’m sick to death of poor people”. A flavour of our glorious leaders.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwv6h-LhTw

  11. manandboy says:

    The 2 million No voters still don’t know what 7 billion disbelieving people in the rest of the world know. But hey, that’s what being British is about – We’re right, and the rest of the World is wrong.

  12. schrodingers cat says:

    think the immigration issue is a complete red herring. both sides being disengenious.

    the real issue is “tariff Barriers” which all parties, in/out, the eu, the media and the businesses have gone out of their way to avoid mentioning

    if brexit tomorrow, the words “tariff barrier” will be the only words you will hear from all of them, and what this actually means.

  13. Macart says:

    @schrodingers cat

    ‘tariff barrier’

    Ayup and as for folks who fondly think an even more rightward Tory austerity government will replace or better current EU subsidies they may be in receipt of…

    I have a bridge I’d like to sell them.

  14. handclapping says:

    So what have we got?
    Osbo and Darling say it will be an economic disaster; two economic disaters predicting a third – LEAVE
    BoJo IDS Farage Gove – REMAIN
    The fat cats of banking and big business for remain – LEAVE
    Spurning 27 people who’ll put up with us – REMAIN
    Unleashing the undoubted talents present government suppresses – LEAVE
    A great big blue comfort blanket so its not our fault – REMAIN
    etc. etc. ad inf.

    So it becomes a political choice
    ITEM if Scotland votes Remain it has 27 governments predisposed to like Scotland. That’s 27 governments who may be interested in the pressure put on the people of Scotland in the next indyref.
    ITEM if Scotland votes noticeably differently from England it emphasises the difference between us. However we do not know how England will vote so we could end up as mad as the users of the tactical voting circles in 2015
    ITEM if Scotland votes Remain it is no worse off than it is at present. The degree of oppression may change with a change in top Tory.
    ITEM if Scotland votes Leave we are taking a gamble on the rUK a) also wanting to leave and b) having the gumption to make a go of it.

    Well thats cleared that up for me I’m in Scotland and now voting Remain. Its amazing how writing things down can clear your mind, not that there is much to clear. But what about Stu’s problem?

    For some one in England it boils down to whether they think the present system of governance is satisfactory; if you’re happy with FPTP, majority Government and all the HoL flummery then Remain otherwise Leave. People in England respond to crises!

  15. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 22 June, 2016 at 9:07 am:

    ” … Can it be the Lord Advocate must be challenged first before he defends Scottish principle? Surely not?”

    See my earlier reply to Rock and you may get an inkling of why nothing ever comes from such things. While there is absolutely no legal case for the bland assumption that The Kingdom of England became the United Kingdom and thus the Treaty extinguished The Kingdom of Scotland.

    Nor is there any actual case to claim that a kingdom is the same thing as a unified country. For starters the British Empires monarchy were heads of state to most of the globe but that did not make most of the globe a single country. Thus the UK itself is proof that a Kingdom and a country are not synonymous.

    The point being that as long as a majority of Scots continue to suck-up the propaganda shite, like herring gulls at a sewerage outlet, nothing will change.

    Not until the voters start to interrupt those who abuse the English language for propaganda purposes and thus break the flow of lies and propaganda will the majority of people begin to realise how they have been getting brain-washed since the day they were born.

    Try this wee experiment sometime. Tune into a David Cameron speech, preferably about something like this referendum.

    Take note of the number of times he uses the terms Britain, British, Great Britain or his several variations of, “our country”, “my country”, “the country”, or, “the whole country”. When what he is referring to is not a country at all but is in fact either a kingdom or a government or a political union.

    It will soon become obvious to you that this is being done as a conscious propaganda exercise. Yet the general public are so inured to the guff that they no longer notice the quite laboured efforts to squeeze as many instances into one breaths worth of sheer, unadulterated, crap.

  16. schrodingers cat says:

    tariff barriers being erected, or not. is something that has not been discussed.

    but you can bet everyone, except the average voter, knows exactly whether tariff barriers will be erected by the eu and the uk.

    tariff barriers have nothing to do with subsidies, they have a direct effect on business, some will benefit, some will lose out to the tune of up to 20%
    (btw, only bad news will make the front page)

    It will be the only topic of discussion from eu officials, businesses (financial services and car manufactures especially) and the media. both remain and out will accuse each other for not telling the public about these tariff barriers

    gone will be vague comments about ephemeral terms like “the economy, or germany biting off their nose despite their face, or business is business, or getting a good deal etc ”

    brexit bingo from 10.01pm tomorrow night.

    tariff barriers,
    financial services,
    car manufacturers,
    free movements of goods and people,

    from the very people who have avoided mentioning them, will then explain to the voters what this actually means. #epicfail

  17. schrodingers cat says:

    But what about Stu’s problem?

    he should vote leave
    if he cant bring himself to do this, he should vote remain

    eitherway, he should not say how he will vote until the result is in. at which point he should tell everyone he voted remain, whether he did or not

  18. Titler says:

    if you’re happy with FPTP, majority Government and all the HoL flummery then Remain otherwise Leave. People in England respond to crises!

    Unless 3/4ths of Parliament vote to dissolve the Government, the Fixed Terms Act means there can’t be an election before the 5 year term is up. There won’t be a referendum on changing the voting system because we’ve already had one, and anyway Parliament rather likes it. It makes no sense tactically then for the hard right of the Tory party to try and pull it all down, when they can take over the party from within, and then reap the secure benefits afterwards and use them to further their agenda. Short term you’ll get the flummery either way, but long term voting Leave ensures a worse result for everyone.

  19. manandboy says:

    For anyone who has difficulty making a choice between two things, one solution is to take a coin and designate, say, heads as remain and tails as leave. Then, toss the coin a couple of feet in the air, and while still spinning, be aware of which side you hope it will come down on. That’s your choice right there.

  20. heedtracker says:

    Oh god when will death come. Rancid The Graun puckers up for some butt kissing, hard core tory style

    Ruthie babes isnt a stuffed shirt, she’ll save teamGB from the vile seps of their scotland region.

    http://archive.is/H1yC5

    “Her passion and articulacy garnered high praise across social media, with Conservative Home founder and committed leave campaigner, Tim Montgomerie, tweeting:

    — Tim Montgomerie ? (@montie)
    June 21, 2016
    If @RuthDavidsonMSP was Ruth Davidson MP she’d be a hot tip to be next Tory leader #BBCDebate

    with a nice boost for my Slovene girlfriend, no longer melting Graun’s servers with endless cif btl Slovenia says Vote NO, you deluded fascist scotch ingrates

    ” Adam Tomkins, explains: “She locked herself in a hotel room for four days to prepare for that. She always puts in a big shift. This is the reason why the Tory party is doing better in Scotland than it has done for a quarter of a century, why new people like me have joined the party, why the new Holyrood group genuinely feels like Team Ruth. Imagine having her as your boss!”

    Tomkins is one of 31 Conservative MSPs elected to Holyrood in May, many for the first time, in what Davidson herself described as a seismic shift in the Scottish electoral landscape, as her party more than doubled their seats and gained votes not only from Labour in urban centres but also from the SNP in more rural seats”

    Once upon time, rancid The Graun night have added that Prof Tomkins actually came 4th last Scots election and is in fact, a barking mad shit stirrer. Thanks again freakin Monseiur D’Hondt.

    How things change in UKOK land.

  21. Dr Jim says:

    So it takes 4 days for Ruth the truth to decide how to talk to somebody she knows well
    God help us in a real emergency then

    In other news well known kids book writer is farting out of her mouth again and sticking her wand up her Arse

  22. Marco McGinty says:

    Nigel Griffiths from Labour Leave, somehow managing to turn the EU Referendum debate on Politics Scotland into a SNP-bad debate.

    That guy is a total zoomer!

  23. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers @ 1:54

    I follow your logic Robert, it makes sense to me. My point is why does it not make similar sense to a devolved SNP government agitating for Independence? Why does it not form the foundation of a formal constitutional challenge from our Lawyers for Independence?

    Is it a robust argument which stands unchallened, made void or made complicated by subsequent legislation? The AXA adjudication would suggest it remains legit and is incontestible. So why aren’t we using it to protect Scotlands interests?

    Matters reserved to Westminster are surely trumped by sovereignty ‘leant’ to the UK parliament. With an SNP government in Holyrood and block SNP representation at Westminster, why does the SNP not simply inform Westminster the BBC is held in contempt here and seize control over Broadcasting with the similar authority of a wider UDI? Why sit there wringing their hands that there’s nothing to be done about the propaganda because the matter is reserved? Revoke our sovereign consent, and Westminster has no jurisdiction to reserve anything. Seize the initiative over broadcasting; schedule diligent programming of the constitutional arguments denied to us in 2014, and bring an end to all of this crap after reasoned discussion and consent. Let’s just be done with it.

  24. robertknight says:

    The Dirigible Ian Duncan, MEP… another guilty of doing a vanishing act.

    Or have I just subconsciously ‘left the room’ whenever he’s made an appearance on the box?

  25. orri says:

    Just thought of an even funnier result.

    A narrow Remain result in England brought about by ex-pat Scots. Post referendum polling that showed a “tactical” leave vote from scots in England might be less beneficial. Especially if it could be portrayed as somehow showing that even we scots had a problem with more immigration than is the norm in Scotland.

  26. Their are thousands of undecided waiting to hear what Michelle Mone,

    Baroness Mone of Mayfair,

    OBE,

    Honorary doctorate of Paisley University,

    has to say on the subject,

    like The Ruthfuhrer and JK ,the British Unionists and hacks seem to be spellbound by their every utterance.

  27. Clapper57 says:

    Heedtracker : “— Tim Montgomerie ? (@montie)
    June 21, 2016
    If @RuthDavidsonMSP was Ruth Davidson MP she’d be a hot tip to be next Tory leader #BBCDebate”

    Hi Heedtracker, am I missing something ??? Thought Ruth Davidson was Scottish ? How could she become next Tory Leader when we have EVEL ?

    Perhaps Tim thinks exception to this rule would, of course, be for a Tory MP.

  28. orri says:

    Expect the word coothie to be brought into mainstream english usage as numptie has been. Just so they’ll understand Coothie Ruthie when it gets punted as her moniker.

  29. Lochside says:

    Breeks…the Supreme Court created by Blair has the last say on Scottish legal matters other than criminal ones. This includes devolved issues.

    Until someone or some body ( the Scottish Government? ) challenges breaches of the Act of Union…of which there have been a multiplicity, the sovereignty of the Scottish people (coppyright R.Peffers) will remain unproven and therefore totally ignored.Meanwhile we can continue to collectively fart at thunder.Neither the corrupt and supine Unionist Scottish legal system or our politicians are seemingly willing or maybe unable to challenge this basic right of our existence as a nation trapped in a union created by an unelected aristocratic elite in the 18th century.Why are we still waiting?

  30. T222Deracha says:

    Yay!!!!!. HRH Nicola is in the Record along with the other Holyrood clowns with a second VOW-like proclamation!. FFS!

  31. Iain More says:

    OT

    GIRUY Cameron yer Spanish pals got a hell of a beating last night. Those ridiculously wee Croats handing the team that the Brit Fitba media was drooling over its arses and heads on a plate. As for that Spanish bully boy that passes for the Premier of that country he can get it right up him as well.

    Oh and where do folk get the idea that there are 27 Countries predisposed to Scotland in the EU? Where the fuck were they during our Indy Referendum?

  32. Andrew McLean says:

    T222Deracha
    Don’t worry, only arseholes read the record.

  33. Marcia says:

    Andrew McLean

    Miaaaaow. 🙂 #cats against Brexit

  34. Lochside says:

    Remain will win…but where does England lie then?….Tories split..Ukip gets stronger…civil disorder…race attacks increase. Thousands leave…for the north? The genie is out of the bottle…the inherent and rotten contradictions in England’s green and unpleasant land are emerging in all their ugly glory.

    But will our fragile struggle for freedom then be capsized by tens of thousands of white flighters?…3/4 of the existing English residents like not living in England but remaining under its tutelage. .otherwise why did they vote no?.. Or are the Corbynistas going to outnumber them? Or are we going to suffer the backwash of exiled racist little Englanders? Strange days have found us.

  35. heedtracker says:

    Hi Heedtracker, am I missing something ??? Thought Ruth Davidson was Scottish ? How could she become next Tory Leader when we have EVEL ?

    Hello. She would be given a safe English tory seat. EVEL’s just for the Scottish MP’s.

    There is a lot of very ghastly stuff in that Graun than tory and Ruthie babes puffery. As in the extraordinary amount of pro tory/Ruth propaganda that farts endlessly out of tory BBC Scotland led scots region media land. Rancid old Graun dont mention that either.

    Which would be fine if you’d just landed on Earth from another planet, planet toryboy, sorry Planet UKOK toryboy. Compare and contrast latest BBC led Graun style Ruthie and Tomkins grovellers to their relentless Sturgeon monstering.

    The Ruthie babes bias from BBC Scotland alone must be worth half of their Scottish vote base, that’s all based on D’Hondt lists anyway. And it allows reprobates like my Slovene girlfriend to slime his way in to Holyrood and cause as much UKOK damage as possible. Again and ofcourse the ghastly old UKOK media like rancid The Graun try to flog it all as not the massive fraud it all really is but perfectly above board and democratic.

    No other country in the world would tolerate a state broadcaster on a britnat tory magnitude as BBC Scotland, but then Scotland is merely a region, which we democratically vote for etc etc…

  36. cearc says:

    Ian More,

    During the Indyref they had to support or at least not speak against their member state, the UK.

    If there is Brexit it will be an entirely different matter as they will be able to freely support an aspiring member, Scotland. No worries at all about a leaving member’s wishes.

  37. Petra says:

    Tottyheid Tomkins has just highlighted, let the cat out of the bag, that Rooth the Mooth isn’t fit to be a wee toon cooncillor never mind the leader of any Scottish / UK party.

    Four days locked away working on what to say during a debate! I wonder if she had her fiancé with her standing in as Boris during role-play? The mind boggles.

    Just imagine if Nicola had to disappear for four days at a time preceding dealing with any one of her many commitments. On the night that she had her debate with Boorish she had carried out her duties as FM at FMQ’s earlier in the day (plus whatever else she had to deal with).

    And it’s just laughable to compare Ruth with Maggie. Much as I detested the woman she worked 7 days a week on 4 hours (not days) sleep a night. The only characteristic that these two have in common is that they are (were) a couple of sociopaths.

  38. Clapper57 says:

    Ah Ruth Davidson..Doh ! In English constituency …PM ?……yes she can …………Doh !

    #LosingIt

  39. Breeks says:

    The question surely is whether the Scottish Parliament and English Parliament ceased to exist when forming the Parliament of Great Britain in 1707.
    Irrespective of whether you accept that, or fall back on Scotland’s sovereignty resting with its people, and that sovereignty being one which no elected body can abdicate, the bottom line is the same: we have a devolved Scottish Parliament conducting its affairs in the spirit whereby the Scottish Parliament AND English parliament did cease to exist when merged into the Parliament of Great Britain and that we HAVE abdicated our sovereignty which now rests in Westminster. Whether they are right to do so, or wrong to do so, is largely irrelevant if the devolved Scottish parliament “recognises” Westminster as the sovereign seat of government.

    It therefore occurs to me there is a big problem with this issue about Scotland’s sovereignty resting with the people. If we adhere to that argument, then we must recognise that the Holyrood parliament is a device created by Westminster, and thus if we contest Westminster as the legitimate seat of Sovereign government, then we must also impeach Hollyrood as a lesser device set up beneath Westminster and without our express sovereign authority. We cannot recognise it as anything else, because it also swears allegience to the Queen; something a true Scottish parliament would not be competent to do.

    To use this argument about Scotland’s sovereignty being non transferrable and ours in perpetuity might very well be valid, but if the consequence of that means we cannot recognise the legitimacy of Westminster, then unfortunately, we cannot (or perhaps better to say should not) either recognise Holyrood as anything more than an illegitimate issue from an illegitimate marriage. The break in continuity will not divide Holyrood from Westminster; the rupture will occur much further back in the chronology. Scotland’s devolved parliament becomes no such thing.

    To here and now engage the power of Scotland’s sovereignty with some political representation, we need a new Scottish Parliament set up an empowered by the sovereign people of Scotland and them alone, and not the Hollyrood parliament which bows down before Westminster and bends to its will.

    If you are correct Mr Peffers, and I am sympathetic to that being the case, then we may have no choice but to sweep away Holyrood when we sweep away Westminster, and that leaves Scotland in need of a new parliament which swears its allegience and servitude to the people of Scotland and no other. Now that really would make for some interesting times and set the Lion rampant amongst the pidgeons in Trafalgar Square…

  40. carjamtic says:

    The Dogs of War

    Experts agree,getting a dog is good for most famillies,good for morale,no matter how low in the pecking order,now matter how shitty life is,most can look down on the familly dog and feel better about themselves.

    The Tories have successfully conned people into looking at immigrants as dogs,they are lower than you,not on your level and every shitty thing that’s wrong with your life is their fault,you horrible immigrants.

    Well done modern Tories you are the worst in living memory and there has been some right cnuts operating in that time but this is beneath contempt.

  41. Andrew McLean says:

    Winnie Ewing memorably said at the formal opening on 1 July 1999, ‘The Scottish Parliament, adjourned in 1707, is now re-convened’.

    Since the Scottish Parliament was re-convened in 1999, responsibility for governing Scotland has been divided between Edinburgh and London. (Scottish Government Publication.)

    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2014/10/2806/2

  42. robertknight says:

    @Iain More

    “Oh and where do folk get the idea that there are 27 Countries predisposed to Scotland in the EU? Where the fuck were they during our Indy Referendum?”

    Dancing to the same tune which Cameron, Barroso, Rajoy etc. were dancing to.

    Outside the fishing communities of Cantabria, Asturias and Galicia, I doubt anyone in the EU could give a 4X for the future of a country, (or ‘region’ as they would have it), having a population less than that of the City of Berlin.

  43. Andrew McLean says:

    Robert It’s not size that matters, surely you have learnt that by now, but resources and economic power.

    You must be mad to think the E.U wouldn’t take in Scotland in the event of brexit, politicly a very astute move for the E.U. to have Indy Scotland as a member as soon as they can, it mitigates some of the shock of Brexit, and keeps Rump UK surrounded.

  44. Ghillie says:

    Jings! The trolls have gone into hyperdrive.

    Looks like they’re worried about something.

    Lots of skipping over though to the interesting posts = )

  45. heedtracker says:

    Tottyheid Tomkins has just highlighted, let the cat out of the bag, that Rooth the Mooth isn’t fit to be a wee toon cooncillor never mind the leader of any Scottish / UK party.

    Four days locked away working on what to say during a debate! I wonder if she had her fiancé with her standing in as Boris during role-play? The mind boggles.

    Prof T’s making an arse of Ruthie for one reason, he wants her job, office politics. He’s a lunatic but he knows that if, like Ruth, you can get made up to tory leader of the scotland region in 6 whole long months of getting non elected, anyone can.

    Then its off the to the Lords and then, then! will the neighbours be really jealous. Arise Baron Lord Prof Tomkins of (cant mind the capital of Slovenia) Ljubljana!

  46. Ian Brotherhood says:

    It’s a Wonderful WOS One-Day-Only Offer – Buy One Bacon Roll, Get One Free.

    What Do We Want?!

    Last-minute Panic!

    When Do We Want It?

    Aaaaaargh!!!

    And where is Lacy Mone? FFS, even Her Maj has lobbed in one’s tuppence’s worth…

  47. Andrew McLean says:

    Oh and by the way Robert, you would struggle to find anyone in Europe that sees Scotland as a region, and not a country in its own right, and I don’t thing fishing is the first thing that jumps into most Europeans minds when they think of Scotland, oil, whiskey, and midges would come before fishing, you don’t seem to understand politics do you? or are you really just a boring troll, I do hope not!

  48. John H. says:

    No Exit poll for this referendum according to Andrew Neil (Daily Politics). I wonder why.

  49. Looks like the Brutish middle classes are more concerned about traffic problems getting to the Glastonbury festival than any Referendum that might be happening,

    place will be full of doctors,lawyers,teachers,journalists driving 4X4 Land Rovers wallowing in the mud in wellies drinking champagne and flowers in their hair,

    they do not care about anything apart from their own bank balance ,sense of entitlement and social standing.

  50. galamcennalath says:

    Opinium, online / 20 – 22 Jun

    Remain: 44% (-)
    Leave: 45% (+1)

    Interestingly, 46% expect the UK will vote to Remain, 27% expect a vote to Leave.

  51. t42 says:

    handclapping says:
    “if Scotland votes Remain it has 27 governments predisposed to like Scotland.”

    lol. comedy gold.

  52. cearc says:

    Ian,

    Yep, it’s getting really boring and my referendum bingo card isn’t full yet.

    C’mon tories, will the EU bomb Heathrow or protect us from space aliens. We need to know!

  53. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLKFtzglbnE

    Good on Moira.

  54. schrodingers cat says:

    barrossa’s intervention in indyref1 was pure opportunism, which backfired as cameron voted against him. he did not represent the considered view on an indy scotlands place in the EU. they had offered cameron clarification of their view but cameron rejected it.

    as such, the official eu position was never revealed. As a rule, they dont get involved in memberstate politics

    the same situation has arisen during this euref, neither side asked for clarification on the eus position in case of brexit, So the eu has remained very mute on this subject.

    but you can be assured that those at the head of industry know exactly what the eu position is and will be.

    and if brexit, so will you.

    brexit bingo
    tariff barriers
    free movement of goods AND people
    financial services,
    car manufacturers,

    this will be from all parties, the eu officials, politicians, the media, financial services and car manufacturers.

    basically everyone who is avoiding mentioning this at the moment

  55. mealer says:

    So what’s the craic for the count? Will the results be announced constituency by constituency or what?

  56. Glamaig says:

    Reported that financial institutions may be paying for their own exit polls

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36590525

    But I expect they wont be sharing them with anybody. Maybe keeping an eye on the markets tomorrow might give clues.

  57. robertknight says:

    @Andrew McLean
    “you don’t seem to understand politics do you? or are you really just a boring troll, I do hope not!”

    To use an American expression, ‘bite-me’. Plenty of opinions here, yours included, with which I may chose to disagree, or for that matter agree – but there are no ‘experts’ here, yourself included; just people with opinions which are no more valid than those of anyone else’s.

    Not sure how many people in Germany care about the future of the Catalan people, or how many Swedes know about the goals of the Sardinian Action Party, or how many French could even point out the Aland Islands on a map.

    I appreciate with regard to NATO how Scotland can be seen to be of strategic importance, but in terms of the EU? No, I don’t think that given the size of our economy and our population, we are all that – with the exception of territorial waters where fishing is concerned.

    And my experience over nearly five decades of traveling throughout what are now 14 of the 28 EU member states as a Scot, (not I hasten to add as a Brit), has given me sufficient cause to question the inflated opinion that many of my fellow Indy-travellers have with regard to an indy-Scotland’s place in the world.

    Feel free to disagree…

  58. HandandShrimp says:

    All the polls seem to be on a knife edge…we might just keep the UK in with the Remain vote in Scotland after all

    That will, if nothing else, give us all a jolly good laugh

    😉

  59. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi John H.

    I read today that there will be no exit poll, because it’s reckoned to be on a knife-edge so the usual “+ or – 3%” allowance for error would make an exit poll meaningless.

    Result expected around 6am – unless it’s very close and may go to the final declaration on Friday.

  60. heedtracker says:

    BBC r4 teatime news really put the BBC UKOK boot in to its scotland region just the now, with Sarah Smith explaining how bad the SNP really are, how bad Sturgeon is and how scotland region doesn’t want another referendum, or as Sarah calls it, a political event because Scotland is tired of them and weakened.

    At least England doesn’t have the EU pouring BBC grade UKOK stuff all over it but the r4 crew are trying to Project Fear England into Remain with a very creepy lose Scotland if you do Leave. But like me, r4 professional liars get all in a muddle when Sarah says, but Sturgeon is campaigning for Remain.

    BBC propagandists aren’t perfect. Mind you, they bloody should be and they have been horrifically balanced and pretty fair to both EU sides. The horror comes from their relentless UKOK monstering of everything Scottish democracy.

  61. Paula Rose says:

    @Mealer region by region and in Scotland’s case the country as a whole.

  62. Dan Huil says:

    The bbc has been just as vile as Cameron and Johnson during this EU referendum.

  63. mealer says:

    Paula Rose 6.47

    Cheers!

  64. Andrew McLean says:

    Robert, I’m going to pass on the offer to bite you! Your negativity would taste bitter to my palette.
    However you may taste better if you read this, at least you wouldn’t be so negative all the time!

    http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0043/00439166.pdf

  65. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Hi A’body,
    Just to let you know, I am now Icelandic.
    Yours sincerely,
    Ian Brodurlega

  66. robertknight at 6.38

    I’m sure we are all free to disagree with your patronising post. We are not concerned overly with Scotland’s place in the world. It will be just the same as any other similar country’s place in the world though we are certainly better known and generally better liked than most.

    Scotland is of huge strategic importance with a commanding position bordering the North Atlantic and most of Europe’s oil and gas and a huge part of its fishing grounds. We will have the status these things give us and we will have no problem at all being welcomed into appropriate organisations and unions because of that.

  67. heedtracker says:

    That will, if nothing else, give us all a jolly good laugh

    If Scots do hold England in the EU, its going to make this kind of UKOK bile look very odd too

    http://archive.is/u4Qn6

    “Fired up with passion and a belief that independence could solve Scotland’s problems at little or no cost to voters (“Do you want to belong to one of the richest countries in the world?”), the yes campaign gave a complacent Downing Street the fright of Dave’s young life and got within a few per cent of victory in 2014.

    All this despite a falling world oil price shredding SNP maths in the background. Yet, as with the Brexit debate, some nationalists feel so strongly about “sovereignty” that they would “rather be poor and free than rich and enslaved”, as the leave EU columnist Melanie Phillips wrote in hyperbolic terms this week. But the real price was deepening divisions in Scotland and creating a scary degree of one-party dominance and intolerance. It is widely denied, but also evident.”

    It’s all Scotland’s fault you see. God spare us toryboy world.

  68. Almannysbunnet says:

    Well that’s it folks, Sarah Smith, who speaks for all of Scotland, has just pronounced on the Beeb that Scotland is getting tired of all this voting malarkey (she didn’t actually say malarkey but she might as well have). We will have had four votes in the last 18 months and it’s just too much for us poor wee Scots.
    So once this EU vote is over we’ll have no more of this 2nd referendum talk.

  69. John H. says:

    Brian Doonthetoon 6.43pm.

    Thanks for that Brian. I suppose I’ve become a bit paranoid by now from seeing too many dirty tricks over the years.

  70. Petra says:

    @ Robert @ 6:38pm ……. “In terms of the EU? I don’t think given the size of our economy and our population, we are all that …. ”

    Robert that statement comes across tainted somewhat by the too wee, poor and stupid myth.

    Scotland (with 1% of the EU population) remains the largest oil producer in the EU (60% of reserves), and the second largest gas producer, with oil production increasing. Taken from the SNP’s 2016 Manifesto.

    I’m sure, if for no other reason than that, they’ll welcome us with open arms.

    However putting oil and gas to one side the document that Andrew has posted at 7:07pm outlines further reasons, I would imagine, for EU countries seeing Scotland’s EU membership as a real asset.

  71. louis.b.argyll says:

    What was clearly a heated, yet civilised debate on the street, was made into anger and aggression by meddling BBC reporter.

    Imagine, if there was a civil war in England..would the BBC be controlled ny the ‘largest’ party?

    Would they bring back the national anthem at bedtime and stuff?

  72. heedtracker says:

    Who else but Tom Harris telling C4 news that Scotland will get more powers and money with Brexit. He’s no Bliar MacDoughball, who is, but even so.

  73. gordoz says:

    @Almannysbunnet – BBC statements for all of Scotchland

    That’s how I read Sarah Smiths statement too. BBC don’t give a monkeys about impartiality. Disgusting what they get away with.

    A new dawn coming at Pacific Quay (we’re listening /changes are on the way) Like Fxck and they are: were that daft !

  74. Kenlike says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    C’moan the cod-men!

  75. Craig MachAonghais says:

    Worth a wee bit of your time to read this…and digest. For all the crap about economics (the forecasts are NEVER right by the way) and total nonsense about the glorious-long-to-reign-over-us UK being controlled by Brussels when in fact it is run by and on behalf of an English-based neoliberal-loving elite) this referendum is about people and how we see them…I for one want people like these IN my country. (Just a shame we can’t elect to eject some of the knuckledraggers in the red, white and blue but there you go…c’est la vie! )

    https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/the-disenfranchised/#more-3095

  76. Glamaig says:

    C4 news are at it. A Leave campaigner talks up SNP Leave vote, Tom Harris pushes new powers for Scotland if Brexit but forgets to say the money to use them might not make it north of the border. Flashback to Indyref and what do we see but lots of nice friendly happy UJ wavers in George Square. Cant miss the chance for a UJ placement specially for our viewers in Scotch region. Scotland, you’re not a country, youre British… British… British… you are feeling very sleepy….

  77. woosie says:

    There’s a horse runs in Ireland which I back all the time; it’s called BUZZ OFF BARROSO! It doesn’t win often, but makes me feel good.

    Surprised to see some of us still giving Baroness Mone of Wherever That’s Not Scottish comment. The woman hangs on her every word.

    And Tony Bliar; Peace envoy to a region he single handedly destroyed for cash, giving tips on politics! A man famous for two things; appearing on The Simpsons, and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis.

    I may vote in and out.

  78. ScottishPsyche says:

    Drip, drip, drip. Since the first exchanges of angry words between Leave and Remain on the internet, MSM have tried to draw parallels with Indyref. Every time Farage or Boris makes an unsubstantiated claim, the White Paper is brought up.

    Jo Cox’s death used to draw parallels where there were none.

    Now Dugdale says Project fear were right about everything they warned about.

    Even though we are not independent.

    Even though they won and made it all happen.

  79. CmonIndy says:

    Polling agent duties tomorrow.
    Wife heading to supermarket.
    On order: tapas, pilsner, camembert, sachertort, bratwurst, sauerkraut, gazpacho, schnapps, moules frites, dolmades…..
    Out of stock: roast beef, chips, engerland, jellied eels.

  80. Dr Jim says:

    Ruth the truth says advance sight of the postal votes has
    assured her, once she fills in some more, that remain will win by at least a massive 2% which will be a clear and unequivical once in a generation lifetime certainty that there will be no Scottish Independence forever and ever or you can call me Humpty or Jolly Roly I goshdarn don’t mind

    She said in an interview with respected “Journalist” and broadcaster Moustache White
    Sarah Smith of the late 2016 program and noted BBC failure to attract viewers show commented “Ruth’s just great isn’t she” and went on to comment on how she single handedly has revitalised the Scottish political landscape in sweeping brush strokes of Magenta and Pink and since the passing of Kezia Dugdale she’s all we’ve got

  81. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “The reason is the bloody clowns and congenital idiots exactly like you who meekly accept the Westminster Establishments propaganda as the stone cold truth.”

    Yes, the “bloody clowns and congenital idiots” include all current SNP MPs and MSPs.

    Or they would have declared UDI.

    If you didn’t meekly accept the propaganda, why didn’t you have the guts to become a politician and enlighten the “bloody clowns and congenital idiots” of Scotland?

    300 years as a colony and a vote to continue as a colony.

    That is the only thing that counts for the way forward.

  82. Grouse Beater says:

    On a London van blasting out Vera Lynn songs.

    “Vote ENGLAND. Vote LEAVE

    The EU is trying to break up England!”

    Maybe they mean breaking England into shires.
    What a terrible fate.

  83. Tinto Chiel says:

    Grouse Beater@8.31pm:

    Sounds like one for your long list…

  84. Petra says:

    @ Rock says at 8:21 pm …. ”Yes, the “bloody clowns and congenital idiots” include all current SNP MPs and MSPs. Or they would have declared UDI.”

    Are you daft? An idiotic clown? UDI? …. and cause a Civil War. I used to think that you were Torcuil Chrichton hiding behind a pseudonym. I’m now begining to think that you’re actually Henry Dunbar Grand Master of the OO yearning for a rerun of the Battle of the Boyne on Scottish soil.

  85. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 22 June, 2016 at 3:05 pm:

    ” … Why does it not form the foundation of a formal constitutional challenge from our Lawyers for Independence?”

    The thing is that to gain any headway such a move needs one of two things to happen. An outstanding leader of the likes of William Wallace or Robert Bruce or a spontaneous movement of the sovereign people of Scotland to uphold their legal sovereignty.

    Even an outstanding leader would still require the people to follow their lead. The truth is that if Scotland is to become again an independent nation it is the Scots themselves who must demand it.

    Now correct me if I’m wrong but are we not around the 50% mark on that journey already? As I pointed out to Rock on this thread. It is counter productive for independent minded Scots to go along with the Westminster Establishment’s propaganda.

    It is not just the never ending mantra they openly chant 24/7 “to wee, to poor, too bloody stupid to be an independent country”.

    It is the subliminal never ending use of the terms Great Britain, Britain, The Country, Our Country, This Country, the Whole Country and, of course We British and so on but all improperly used and in their minds it is all synonymous with the term England.

    It has long been the case that Scots, even long term and dedicated independent supporters inadvertently use the very terms that mark Scotland out as an inferior part of that part of the World known to most foreigners who believe that England, Britain and the United Kingdom are all just names for the same bit of the World.

    Face the facts – the Establishment has been working to achieve just that for at least 2016 years. From the very beginning of history lessons in schools they never instil in the pupils that the Romans were never rulers of Britain but only parts of Britain.

    Here’s another wee example to make the point – why were the Scots not excluded from the celebrations of such as Magna Carta?

    Here is a cut & paste from a History website :-

    Magna Carta, meaning ‘The Great Charter’, is one of the most famous documents in the world. Originally issued by King John of England (r.1199-1216) as a practical solution to the political crisis he faced in 1215, Magna Carta established for the first time the principle that everybody, including the king, was subject to the law. Although nearly a third of the text was deleted or substantially rewritten within ten years, and almost all the clauses have been repealed in modern times, Magna Carta remains a cornerstone of the British constitution.

    Note they claim it forms the British Constitution but the constitution of the three country Kingdom of England is a Constitutional Monarchy.

    This cannot be applyed to the Kingdom, (and country), of Scotland as the Queen of England is constitutionally a sovereign monarch but The Queen of Scots is not a sovereign but only constitutionally the defender of the sovereign people of Scotland’s sovereignty.

    This has been the Westminster establishments modus operando since even before the Treaty of Union. They just assume what they want it to be. To our collective discredit, most Scots have always just gone along with whatever they said or did. Like, for example, the recent, (obviously non-binding) VOW.

    The plain fact is that no leadership, nor Legal authority, is about to stick their necks out to say anything about it unless there is already a groundswell of Scottish public support in favour of standing up against the propaganda and abuse of terms used for millennia to subjugate the Scots.

    The first step in that direction has to be making the Scots people aware of the abuses of terms that they are subjected to on a 24/7 basis.

  86. The Man in the Jar says:

    Thats interesting. According to the BBC we will be getting the referendum results by Council areas. All done and dusted by 6am.

    https://archive.is/rShMg

  87. Ian Brotherhood at7.10

    Me too. Now where did I put that Icelandic flag?

  88. Bob Mack says:

    Rock is actually a reincarnation of Wolfie Smith (Tooting popular front) Scotland branch. Best ignored.

    I can visualise the red star on his beret.

  89. Big Jock says:

    Leave are ahead in the last 2 polls! Adjusted methodology still didn’t help remain. Yet the media and bookies all going for remain. Is this another set up?

  90. heedtracker says:

    Paxo C4 debate very boring but its nice to see old BBC bootboy Paxo, who compared Scotland’s ex First Minister Alex Salmond to Robert Mugabe. Paxo’s looks like he’s melting away, with his sex drive, he told the Times. What ever you say about an old rich fascist like Murdoch, he’s still giving it a go.

  91. Inverclyder says:

    OT

    Ever noticed the likeness between Johann Lamont and Daphne Broon.

    Shocker!

  92. Glamaig says:

    Agreed, it’s 50/50 in the polls but all the money seems to be on Remain, yet you would think that the grey legions of England’s silent majority could swing it for leave… and a dodgy weather forecast favouring Leave too.

  93. Paula Rose says:

    Further to my comment at 6:47 the Scottish result will be tallied as follows:

    https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/8650/how-scotland-s-eu-referendum-results-will-be-declared

  94. Douglas Guy says:

    Europe has been at war with itself since before it was called Europe. I don’t mean war as in Tories being beastly to each other. I mean the one with rape, butchery and slaughter.

    With the exception, so far, of every nation who has joined the European Coal and Steel Community, established in 1951 at the Treaty of Paris, to do exactly that. Schuman, the French Ministre des Affaires étrangères insisted it woul “make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible.”

    For 65 years the ECSC and its successors, the EEC and the EU, has got a lot wrong, but so far Schuman was right.

    Arguments about 0.5% per capita per year economic migration, banana regulations, or Greek voters who don’t want to repay German bankers, just don’t come close to countering the EU’s greatest achievement.

  95. One_Scot says:

    Can’t wait until all this depressing EU shit is over, so we can get our lives back to normal depressing shit.

  96. galamcennalath says:

    “Scottish result will be tallied as follows”

    Had a thought. Apparently financial institutions have commissioned exit polls so they will get early warning of the outcome.

    How early? I would have thought that if it is an all day monitoring process, they will get a good idea very early on! They will keep their results secret, I have no doubt. I may be completely wrong about this, but it may be worth watching.

  97. heedtracker says:

    Agreed, it’s 50/50 in the polls but all the money seems to be on Remain, yet you would think that the grey legions of England’s silent majority could swing it for leave… and a dodgy weather forecast favouring Leave too.”

    It’s going to be the same as Scottish ref, 55/45, with exact same demographic that voted UKOK. Its all about the ABC1’s, House prices, borrowing costs, all are doing great in England and Scotland.

    Big difference this campaign’s been purdah adhered to and a balanced BBC. BBC balance is probably just down to survival. If the BBC monstered one side or the other the way they destroyed YES 2014, they’d make a lot of enemies actually in government and your talking about a lot of top BBC exec’s on at least four hundred grand a year plus expenses. They’re effectively civil servants of the crown but that’s a lot of money to throw away because you pissed off likes of Bojo.

  98. crazycat says:

    Re: exit polls

    I read somewhere (can’t remember where, unfortunately; might have been on UK Polling Report) that it is not possible to take an exit poll from a referendum.

    In an election, voters in a few places are asked how they voted (usually via casting another secret ballot, apparently) and this is compared with the result from the same polling station in the last election for the same parliament/council/whatever.

    An overall result is then extrapolated from the change, but this obviously can’t be done for a one-off referendum.

    This sounds plausible – were there exit polls for the AV and devolution referendums?

  99. Glamaig says:

    Big difference this campaign’s been purdah adhered to and a balanced BBC. BBC balance is probably just down to survival. If the BBC monstered one side or the other the way they destroyed YES 2014, they’d make a lot of enemies actually in government and your talking about a lot of top BBC exec’s on at least four hundred grand a year plus expenses. They’re effectively civil servants of the crown but that’s a lot of money to throw away because you pissed off likes of Bojo.

    Earlier in the campaign I thought they seemed biased to Remain. As Leave caught up the bias got worse. Then in the last weeks they got scared Bojo might win so they got balanced. Fits with your theory.

    In Scotland of course they’ve been promoting SNP Leave to thwart the vile Indref2 plans, but they get bonuses and promotion for that, not the sack 🙂

  100. Rock says:

    Petra,

    “Are you daft? An idiotic clown? UDI? …. and cause a Civil War. I used to think that you were Torcuil Chrichton hiding behind a pseudonym. I’m now begining to think that you’re actually Henry Dunbar Grand Master of the OO yearning for a rerun of the Battle of the Boyne on Scottish soil.”

    It is Robert Peffers’s opinion that all current SNP MPs and MSPs are “bloody clowns and congenital idiots” who meekly accept the Westminster Establishments propaganda as the stone cold truth.”

    If you and anyone else don’t accept that opinion, take it up with Robert Peffers, not with me.

  101. galamcennalath says:

    crazycat says:

    “I read somewhere (can’t remember where, unfortunately; might have been on UK Polling Report) that it is not possible to take an exit poll from a referendum.”

    Not public ones, but ….

    http://archive.is/J5d8F

    “That does not mean, however, that there will be no exit polling. The Independent understands that some financial institutions have commissioned exit polls, so that they can gain early intelligence of likely movements in the markets. “

  102. heedtracker says:

    In Scotland of course they’ve been promoting SNP Leave to thwart the vile Indref2 plans, but they get bonuses and promotion for that, not the sack

    But BBC vote Brexit Scotland’s covers blown completely 2014 and then by their ongoing relentless SNP monstering since then. Pacific Quay’s been trying to hammer the living shit out of the SNP since the ref and the only success they had was the last Scots GE, pulling SNP gov into minority. Even that’s hardly a success considering their appalling bias for Dugdale and SLab. They could be on the way out of Scotland for good, despite Pacific Quay’s incredible vote SLab propaganda. They still report SLab as the no.1 Scottish party.

    We’ll know Friday if both BBC Scotland and SLab are still on the way out but so far, they’re only preaching to the converted, in summary:D

  103. ScotishPsyche says:

    Inverclyder 9.21pm

    How about Maggie Darling and Johnny Vegas (in a blonde wig)?

    Same turn of phrase and demeanour as well.

  104. Grouse Beater says:

    Tinto Shiel: “Sounds like one for your long list…”

    The list of shame rolls on: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY

    My ‘J’accuse’ for the destruction of the Glasgow School of Art will be published midnight tomorrow.

  105. Marcia says:

    I see on James Kelly’s Scot Goes Pop site that the 2 latest Euro Ref polls show movement to the Remain side.

  106. Sinky says:

    I’m voting to remain and hope that Scotland swings it and upset the UKIPers.

    Great article in Derek Bateman on constitutional position if there is a Leave vote.

    http://derekbateman.scot/2016/06/22/academics-not-entirely-useless-shock/

    imo in event of a Leave vote, like in Ireland, there will be some further concessions and a second referendum in two years time.

  107. JLT says:

    It’s a fair analysis Stuart, but I believe in essence, the UK has crossed the Rubicon …and nothing can ever be the same again. I believe that will become more apparent to a lot of less politically minded people over the next few weeks as the political mood continues to be fraught with anger and distrust.

    People talk about the Scottish Genie being let loose from the bottle in 2014; well, the same is happening with England right now. The political debate that has erupted in England, and the English Genie is not going back in its bottle. Whoever wins on Friday …well …I believe in the following days, England will be at its own throat fighting with itself. This will be a nation in a black mood; either in or out; but with political infighting amongst every Unionist Party, and amongst the electorate itself.

    If Boris, Farage or any other Brexiteer believes that the people of the United Kingdom will settle down and get behind Britain should it leave the EU, then they are seriously kidding themselves! We won’t be returning to the mood of the nation even as near as 2012.

    Something’s changed. English nationalism has awoken, and for good or ill (depending on how you view their politics), it’s not going to go away. Serious questions will now be asked as to where England’s future is going …and we, the Scots …might not even be invited along.

    Norway in 1905 found itself suddenly independent after the dissolution of the Union that existed between itself and Sweden. I think we are now heading down that path; certainly more so if we leave the EU, probably less apparent and slightly if we remain, but all the same …still heading down that path.

    Should Scotland vote considerably to Remain while England votes to Leave, then I think the hope of reconciling the two nations will be too great; especially if the Scottish Government begin to seek advice from the EU over continued membership. That would be enough for some quarters in England to begin howling in anger and fury at perceived self-interest (the irony) and betrayal.

    You never know …but I’ll say this much; these last 3 years have proven we live in interesting times, and I see nothing on the horizon that hints that these interesting times are about to come to an end. These are definitely historic days that envelope us right now …for both Scotland and England. It just makes you wonder how it will all end…

  108. Chic McGregor says:

    @robertknight
    ” I doubt anyone in the EU could give a 4X for the future of a country, (or ‘region’ as they would have it), having a population less than that of the City of Berlin.”

    Scotland has significantly more people than Berlin or indeed the German state (Brandenburg) which surrounds Berlin.

    Not all European countries are as city-state obsessed as the UK, which is almost at neo-Roman/Athenian levels.

  109. Cal says:

    So the last results poll results have been published and they show a last minute swing to Remain. For what it’s worth, here’s my prediction:

    In UK
    Remain 45-47%
    Leave 55-53%

    In Scotland
    Remain 60-65%
    Leave 40-35%

  110. Brian McHugh says:

    Remember all and check the back of your ballot for unique serial number and barcode tomorrow.

  111. Cadogan Enright says:

    As I can’t spoil the remain vote in Scotland from over here, I have been cheering on the English Nationalists

    I made a few mistakes at first, and converted a few Unionist Leavers in the North of Ireland to Stayers by accicently truthfully giving my opinion on what would happen with a leave vote

    1. Scotland leaves UK
    2. England without Scottish money and resources has to start negotiating its way out of the North
    3. United Ireland happens and ten damaged boarder counties gradually catch up with the 22 wealthy ones.

    Then I caught myself on, and started agreeing with Leavers, mirroring their body language and loudly noting their common sense and political acumen

  112. Breeks says:

    Wait! Wait! Wait!….Breaking news! Just coming in over the teleprinter…

    Angela….. Merkel….. To…. Make …Emergency… Statement… A Big… Juicy… Vow… To…. Give… U…K…More… Powers… And… First… Refusal… On…All… Beach… Deckchairs … And … Loungers… If… U.K… Votes… Remain…

    Oh shit. That’s going to change everything.

  113. Brian McHugh says:

    Already made my prediction Cal, as 57.something% remain UK wide… followed by a whole lot of claims of foul play and election fraud.

  114. Simon Curran says:

    I think Remain will have it. What has depressed me is for all the talk I don’t think the leading protagonists on either side (Johnson, Farage, Cameron, Osborne) really care about a better future for anyone outside their particular demographic. It has also highlighted again just how utterly irrelevant Scotland’s wishes are to the rest of the UK. If a large enough number of people in England vote one way or another it doesn’t matter what Scotland thinks, whatever England wants will just happen anyway. Not so much an equal partnership but unequally yoked.

  115. dakk says:

    Stuart is conspicuous by his absence.

    Probably sitting as we speak trying to perfect that sketch of his wee man for tomorrow’s vote.

    I don’t blame him.

  116. Inverclyder says:

    Breeks @ 10:49pm

    Do we get the road signs?

  117. Chic McGregor says:

    I am voting for:

    Universal human rights.
    Unfettered access to the World’s largest single market.
    The protection of worker’s rights.
    Peace in Europe.
    Constraint on populist fascism.
    Production security, food and industrial.
    The principle of subsiduarity.

    To remain.

  118. cearc says:

    Cadogan,

    I thought you must been busily having fun with your long term game plan!

    Nice to hear from you.

  119. dandy dons 1903 says:

    I see Bullsh1t Brown has been called out to plead with the Englanders not to leave. That should go down well in Little Duckington on the Puddle.

  120. K1 says:

    I’m voting for perfectly shaped banana’s.

  121. Grouse Beater says:

    K1 “I’m voting for perfectly shaped banana’s.

    🙂

  122. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Don’t let Euro-froth get to you.

    Instead, prepare for Monday by familiarising yourself with some Icelandic beers.

    http://somethingabouticeland.is/the-icelandic-beer-review/

  123. Effijy says:

    Remain wins hands down.

    The Stock Market has risen dramatically, the foreign currency rates are showing a strengthening £Pound, and the Bookmakers have shortened the odds on a Remain win to 1/5.

    Cameron and Gideon must have put a few £1,000,000 on a Remain win and now stand to make yet another fortune.

    Enough pre-filled ballot boxes are ready to ensure a minimal 55% Remain win.

    The echo from that sounds like, “The percentage win means that this referendum will never happen again in a Lifetime”
    Meaning Scotland, you can forget Indy Ref 2 in this life.

  124. carjamtic says:

    I will be voting with all the vigour of a dieting woman devouring a packet of Jaffa biscuits.

  125. crazycat says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood

    There’s a Reykjavik Beer Walk, described halfway down this: http://stuckiniceland.com/places-to-see-in-iceland/new-travel-app-for-iceland-trip/

    I’ve met the man who runs it; he’s written a book about beers round the world (in Icelandic, but there is a translation, I think) and is a teacher at their Beer Academy, amongst other things.

  126. ahundredthidiot says:

    Might just draw a dick on my ballot paper.

    Remain by a whisker.

    Maybe.

    Rev, go with your gut

    Or go for a pint and f*ck it all

  127. jockmcx says:

    Who invented that nigel fromage anyway?somethin stinks.

    This efinrendum has certainly woke up a lot of english people,and they seem to be in an ugly mood.

    I expect a remain vote,the winners? tories of course! They
    can cotinue thier long term economic disaster.

    Wakey wakey labour voters…

  128. jockmcx says:

    SNP x 2, as long as it takes…you don’t have options.
    by the way.

  129. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @crazycat –

    That’s the way to do it. Civilised behaviour.

    Anyone watching this euro-frenzy from a distance must wonder WTF we’re all about.

    The Trump/Clinton death-struggle is no more edifying.

    Strange days we’re in, eh?

    …strange days indeed…most peculiar…

    John Lennon, ‘Nobody Told Me’ –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_0di2IL440

  130. Dr Jim says:

    News just in:

    Tomorrow Nicola Stormborn Mother of Dragons will be flying over every polling station breathing fire down on all Leave voters in one last effort to create the perfect conditions for Scotland to move forward with the great Independence plan
    A secret deal has been struck between senior SNP figures and Boris Johnson who will visit all English polling stations in his own personal Bendy Bus scaring the Bejesus out of all Remain voters in order to obtain the correct result in the Shires

    David Cameron who is still holder of the great seal is ready to hand it over at a moments notice to Golumb The Gove following the Leave result

  131. ClanDonald says:

    My own prediction is a narrow remain followed by the far right going on a rampage and trashing the place followed by a mass surge in UKIP membership. The Brexiters aren’t going anywhere, like us yessers they’re in it for life.

  132. Almannysbunnet says:

    50/50 after extra time. Brexit to lose on penalties.

    It’s going to dawn on Boris and Faradge that the only way they will get what they want is with Scotland out of the union. Then they can have their 2nd EU in/out neverendum.

  133. Connor McEwen says:

    Postal votes and grumpy “do’n’t rock the boat” pensioners will win the day. Heard that somewhere before?

  134. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Alan Mackintosh –

    :), and yes, I understood every word.

    By Monday, each and every Iceland-supporting Scot must post his/her Icelandic name in this place, if for no other reason than to complicate the business of those charged with monitoring our radical discussions.

    P.S.

    *The Great Auk Is Leaving The Nest Unattended, Briefly*

    (Nudge-nudge, wink-wink, say-no-more anawathatjazz…)

  135. Almannysbunnet says:

    Oh dear, Spain has got its own Alistair Carmichael.
    https://archive.is/jyODs

  136. robertknight says:

    @Chic

    “Scotland has significantly more people than Berlin or indeed the German state (Brandenburg) which surrounds Berlin.”

    You’re right – should’ve checked the note next to the figure I found which stated 6 million.

    According to the World Atlas, (a more reliable source), our population puts us on a par with that of the metro-area of Milan.

    @Dave

    Better to be “patronising” than being reduced to calling those who don’t share our opinion a “troll”, no?

    @Petra

    You’re right, a touch of the 2S/2P/2S may well have rubbed off as a result of sharing the place with 2 million who hold that view. But thankfully, it doesn’t prevent me from placing the X in the right box.

  137. James Barr Gardner says:

    Despite various views about pensioners in Scotland my wife and I (both pensioners) will be voting remain tomorrow.

    Roll on June 2017 Local Authority Election, Vote SNP.

    Roll on Indy Ref2, Vote SNP.

    Roll on a free and fair Scotland, good bye to Westminster Cesspit.

  138. dakk says:

    The EU referendum has been a bore just like the Euros football Championship.

    Roll on Russia World Cup 2018 and the Cooncil elections 2017.

    Onwards and upwards for Scotland !

  139. Still Positive. says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 12.32

    I am Jamesdottir.

    Vote Remain today.

  140. dakk says:

    James Barr Gardiner

    Snap 🙂

  141. Still Positive. says:

    Dr Jim @ 12.11

    That cannae be right – she’s aff to Benidorm with the guys she met at Edinburgh Airport!

  142. Petra says:

    @ JLT at 10:31pm ….. ”These are definitely historic days that envelope us right now … for both Scotland and England. It just makes you wonder how it will all end…”

    Great post JLT and it will end in riots no doubt, in the short term, no matter who wins tomorrow. Longer term England will be one divided country, probably for all time coming, and the Tories one irreconcilable Party. Follow that up with them being accused of Electoral fraud / being an illegitimate Government and, eh, interesting times ahead right enough.

    ………………………………………..

    I’ve got no time for the EU or Westminster however I can’t shed myself of both right now.

    I’ll vote to Remain in the hope of ridding myself, my Country, of Westminster and then if successful will sit back and contemplate, with millions of others, how to go forward in relation to the EU.

    The EU didn’t dump Nuclear weapons in Scotland nor did it drag our Scottish soldiers into an illegal War. Westminster did that and that tells me that Westminster has a great deal more power over Scotland than the EU. That tells me that we need to get rid of Westminster first.

    If Brexit becomes a reality tomorrow Osborne will use it to cover his economically, incompetent tracks: His massive black abyss, around £80 billion, in comparison to Scotland’s so-called economic black hole (£7 billion as per Joanna Cherry …. not £15 billion as per UKOK). The UK will then be, openly / publicly, on the (blame Brexit) skids.

    Scotland will find itself in an even weaker position. So ‘weak’ that life for the more ignorant No voter will become even more dismal to the point that they’ll blame Holyrood for Westminster’s actions; the downturn. So weak for us, Yes voters, that contemplating Indyref2 could become a distant dream. Just imagine a Scotland ruled by the Johnston’s, IDS’s and Farages of the World. A cabal of heartless morons. It doesn’t bear thinking about. Johnstone and Farage have also publicly stated that they would ‘sort the Scots out’, such as abolish Holyrood. Well I thought that Westminster in cahoots with their media cronies had well and truly sorted the Scots out over the last 300 years or so. If they win it would seem that we are in for even MORE ‘sorting out’.

    It’s all been said on here already. BIG, BIG decision to make today. Vote REMAIN.

  143. Dr Jim says:

    @Still Positive

    She’ll free them from their misconceptions and indoctrinate them into her great Scottish army of the Unsullied

    The English have entered the great game now, and the great game can only end one way

    Slavery will be cast off throughout the land and the English will march north of the wall to join us all that will be left in the south will be a few UKIP slaves

    Mbwaaahahah

  144. yesindyref2 says:

    @Sinky
    Point 14 is the interesting one, and the one basically why it’s impossible constitutionally for the UK Government to refuse Indy Ref 2 in the event of Brexit, but Scotland Remain. And as Head of State of the devolved parliament of Scotland I suspect HRH would have a constitutional duty to uphold the Scottish Parliament’s decision, if it was to refuse to dismantle EU originated legislation passed by ScotGov.

    The Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly, and Northern Ireland Assembly are all legally required to operate within EU law. In order to withdraw from the EU cleanly, these requirements would have to be repealed (see here for the difficulties that would ensue if they were not). By convention, this would require the consent of the devolved legislatures, which they might well refuse to grant. Sionaidh Douglas-Scott argues that Westminster could precipitate a constitutional crisis if it chose to override such refusal. Some others doubt that.

  145. yesindyref2 says:

    In the event of a Brexit, although legally the UK Government can make its negotiations on the terms for withdrawal from the EU under Article 50 without agreement from the the devolved parliaments, practically it needs the support precisely because of that embedded EU legislation.

    Sturgeon has already indicated she would want to be involved in those negotiations, and I suspect the price to pay by UK Gov would be a change to the Scotland Act devoloving for eternity, the right to hold a referendum on the Union at any time it wants. Perhaps subject to some 7 year repeat clause similar (I think) to the Ireland reunification in the Northern Ireland Act.

    Clearly Scotland voting “overwhelmingly” to Remain, would be a huge democratic and constitutional support for the ScotGov and Scottish parliament future position.

  146. yesindyref2 says:

    So yeah, clearly the best Indy position is to vote Remain in Scotland. That’s the Key.

  147. David says:

    I am REMAIN for:
    Hot au-pairs
    Italian fashion
    IKEA
    Holidays in Spain
    Kraftwerk

  148. David says:

    I am REMAIN for:
    Victor Borge
    Nana Mouskouri
    Van Der Valk & ‘Eye Level’
    Golden Earring
    Krautrock

    🙂

  149. Brian McHugh says:

    My Icelandic name is Brjann. 🙂

  150. yesindyref2 says:

    @Brian
    Mine is já sjálfstæði þjóðaratkvæðagreiðslu tveir 😯

  151. scotspine says:

    Facebook conversation with a former colleague of mine last night.

    We worked together for a civil service dept in an English city. He is English and still works there, whilst I left and returned home a number of years ago.

    He tells me that he and all his colleagues are voting out for England.

    Just to be clear about that, England, not UK

  152. ewen says:

    I am now Eysteinn Hafthorsson.

  153. Brian McHugh says:

    Bit early in the morning to be drinking is it not yesindyref2? LOL

  154. scotspine says:

    I’m voting IN for;

    Vanessa Paradis
    The TV series The White Horses
    Danish bacon
    Le Chevalier Tempets
    Boney M
    Bratwurst

  155. Dorothy Devine says:

    Don’t know about my Icelandic name but I am an Icelandic saint so a bit of deference please.

    Love that chant – not so fond of football but delighted to see Iceland , Wee Wales and ROI progressing. Still trying to recover after discovering Wee Wales had trounced Russia.

  156. gerry parker says:

    @ Brian.

    The Hitch hikers Guide to the Galaxy has this to say about drinking.

    “Go to it, and good luck!”

    I’m off to the polling station.

  157. Brian McHugh says:

    It’s Dorothea. nordicnames.de/wiki/

  158. Allan Jarlsson says:

    Ian, this is catching on…

  159. One_Scot says:

    Why couldn’t have the Sun have used that front page for the Scottish referendum, just saying like.

  160. Breeks says:

    @One_Scot 8:35

    The didn’t have Tim Peake’s picture to photoshop.

  161. Grouse Beater says:

    I vote REMAIN for:
    Inspector Montalbano,
    Paris on a warm evening,
    Spanish streets without chewing gum,
    The Van Gogh Museum,
    And Beethoven.

  162. Conan the Librarian™ says:

    Tinni Gunnlaugersson. That’s a request.

  163. Just going out to vote,

    still not sure which way,

    the SNP microchip in my brain says Remain,

    the rest of me says I want Scotland to have Independence from any outside control and the EU were sh#t to us during Indy1,

    if Scotland was Independent I would vote Leave,

    I think.

  164. Cuilean says:

    Today I will buy a packet of smokey bacon crisps.

    I will pay for my smokey bacon crisps with a tenner.

    The change will include a fiver.

    If it is a Bank of England fiver, I will vote ‘leave’.

    If it is a Scottish bank fiver, I will vote ‘remain’.

    If the shopkeeper (in this proud nation of shopkeepers) says, ‘Sorry, I’ve no fivers.’ I will ‘abstain’.

  165. Glamaig says:

    I am willing England to find its balls, assert itself and vote Leave.
    Meanwhile, vote Remain in Scotland and express our more internationalist outlook.

    Whatever the result, I hope the process has caused more in England to start using their grey matter and soon realise that the cause of their problems is not the EU or immigration, but is right there on the Thames.

  166. cearc says:

    I think the Sun put the weather forecast on the front page!

    hænan,

  167. Macart says:

    Sorli Grumpibaskitsson… who knew?

    Anyroads, remain – till we have this conversation in our own right and because we should look outward.

  168. Big Jock says:

    Voted remain this morning. Drove to polling booth listening to Neon Lights by Kraftverk. They alone make me feel european and proud to be so. Forget all the mumbo jumbo and vote with your heart.

    Very quiet and I suspect turnout in Scotland will be lower than England. We had our referendum and we are bit players in Englands as far as I am concerned.

    Although often the supporting actor wins the Oscar! Our day will come just not today.

    The thing that may win this for Brexit is the postal votes. If they are 55/45 that could be enough for them, if it’s narrow and 51/49 the other way on the day.

    Are the English going to confound the establishment. Either way Tories are splitting and a GE looms. Will Scotland refuse to co-operate with the Tory government and go on strike as some have predicted?

  169. Breeks says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Kinda wishing I hadn’t thought about aspect of sovereignty yesterday.
    For the life of me, I can’t now set aside the parallels of a Scottish Parliament set up by Westminster and bound to swear its loyalty to a “British” seat of sovereign power; and John Balliol, Toom Tabard, King of Scotland put in power by Edward 1 but only after swearing fealty and homage to Edward as his superior.

    I have taken so much for granted with our new Scottish Parliament, but it is all built Betamax, when our Scottish sovereignty is VHS. It is IBM while the people are Apple Mac. It is a Westminster “super committee”, and anything more and everything greater is only an illusion we are allowed to believe and choose to believe. But beneath the facade is a fundamental incompatability which is unalterable.

    When we talk about the sovereign voice enshrined in the Scottish people, we only hear the words in Holyrood, because the apparent sovereign power they carry bears recognition of Westminster as superior, which cannot exist beside the superior sovereignty of Scotland’s people, just a John Balliol’s deeds can never escape the cage which Edward 1 put them into. It is were matter meets anti-matter.

    I now understand why this whole argument about our legal constitution is muted. My whole perspective has been altered. Our parliament is not a Scottish challenge on Westminster from without, it is a slow and subtle poison to be administered from within.

    Our sovereignty is coup de grace for the Union, Columbo’s final reveal when the muderer is caught, keeping its powder dry for when it crucially matters.

  170. cearc says:

    They seem to be having a problem with that-foreign-rain-coming-over-here and making us all wet in SE England.

    Maybe Cameron will call a national emergency and call the whole thing off!

    hænan.

  171. Chic McGregor says:

    Vote leave for:

    http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/LondoniaBoris.jpg

    And bananas as bent as any banana obsessive could wish for.

  172. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I am voting Remain for:

    German cars – particularly Mercedes
    French claret
    Italian ciabatta
    Danish bacon
    Swedish blondes
    Spanish holidays
    Polish builders
    and because it will piss-off a whole swathe of the Sudetenland when Scottish Remain votes cancel their UKip out votes.

    Matthew Georgesson

    And how typically lucky of the SFa, that we failed to qualify from the only European Championship qualifying groups which produced three countries – Grmany, Poland and the Republic of Ireland who got through to the knock-out stages.

    The stumblebums on the sixth floor at Hampden will use this as an excuse to show how unlucky we were, and that it wasn’t mainly their stupidity which has handicapped us for all these years.

    Sorry Ruby, that last rant was about fitba.

  173. Tam Jardine says:

    Breeks

    My feeling when I visit the parliament is of a great machine that is idling along working at 50% capacity. How many country’s or territories in history have regained or gained independence with the benefit of a relatively speaking brand spanking new parliament ready to motor, and a sophisticated and fully formed government apparatus set up?

    The leap was not so great and certainly nothing when compared with the change proposed today by the Leave camp.

    My hope is that, Leave or Remain we send a message to the EU and that when Indyref 2 is eventually set in motion the EU member states remember the vote in Scotland today and act appropriately. I am a passionate European and there was no doubt in my mind which way to cast my vote today, but the understandable intransigence (and in some cases downright opposition) to Scottish Independence from the EU must end today.

    If it does not and we get the same pish all over again where Scotland is left alone, bullied and almost friendless to cope with right wing tory belligerence and media interference I will change my stance on the EU completely.

    With all major parties in Scotland supporting Remain and my home city of Edinburgh the odds on favourite to return the highest Remain vote, along with my own anecdotal evidence and polling up here I think we could be looking at a very high figure but perhaps a low turnout.

    God knows what say the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We shall find out soon enough and crack on from there.

    I enjoyed your post although you seem to take a gloomier view of Holyrood than I do. Obviously there is truth in what you say and the Sovereignty of the Scottish People and the will of Holyrood as a mere devolved parliament are two different things. I see Holyrood as being the parliament in waiting, like a set of clothes we have yet to grow into.

  174. Papko says:

    I vote Remain , because I owe David Cameron , for saving Britain back in 2014.
    Even though the EU is a corpse,which is run so that Olive farmers in Crete, can buy BMW’s, meanwhile the young folk all over the EU suffer 50% unemployment.

    Where fruit farmers in Scotland employ thousands of young healthy E.Europeans, getting a suntan and a good few pound to take home.
    Meanwhile our own unemployed stare at big telly , curtains closed,a Smart phone and a an Energy drink, and watch their life go down the drain.

    Its only by voting out, then we can introduce workfare and let our own people enjoy self respect, satisfaction and a suntan.

    Alas its not to be.

  175. willie fae kilwinning says:

    My Icelandic name is VILHJÁLMUR.

    C’mon Iceland.

    Play then gently, then strike and reel them in. You’ll have them hook, line and sinker. Cod loves a trier.

    Putting my coat on now.

  176. Capella says:

    Eerily quiet over on the BBC. They have no newspaper review because they are restricted to only stating facts – as opposed to the rubbish that the newspapers usually cover their front pages with. I don’t recall this reticence on the Indyref poll 2014 but it was a while ago now.

    “the BBC and other broadcasters are restricted to reporting only factual accounts of the events, in line with election day rules.”
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36603311

    Meanwhile they have been struck by lightning on a biblical scale. Perhaps turnout will be low.

  177. cearc says:

    Capella,

    Only factual accounts, eh? Well that’s the beeb buggered.

    hænan.

  178. manandboy says:

    IndyRef14 and EU In/Out Ref16 – THE CRASHING CONTRADICTION

    If our membership of the EU represents an appalling and intolerable loss of sovereignty, as it does to so many, particularly in England, why was the far, far greater loss of sovereignty Scotland was coerced to accept in the Scottish Independence Referendum, deemed tolerable and necessary.

    (Adapted from an article by George Monbiot in The Guardian 2.9.2014. https://www.theguardian.com)

  179. mike cassidy says:

    Just voted remain with all the enthusiasm of a vibrator being purchased by Raving Ruthie.

    Then the first voice I hear in my street is a Polish builder on his mobile – I kid you not –

    followed by his Geordie workmate saying he keeps telling him to speak English.

    I had to joke that I had just voted ‘remain’ – but the Geordie didn’t seem too enthusiastic.

    And no, I never said I look forward to the day when he is also an economic immigrant in my country.

  180. Ruby says:

    “Adam Tomkins, explains: She locked herself in a hotel room for four days to prepare for that.”

    You would have thought someone who was a BBC journalist would have already been trained for TV appearances!

    I wonder how many days she locks herself in a room to prepare for First Minister Questions? Perhaps the Tories would be better off replacing Ruth with a trained actor they could probably learn their script a lot faster than Ruth.

    Who pays for her to be locked away for 4 days learning her script?

  181. schrodingers cat says:

    from twitter

    the Jockalypse: whereby Scotland keeps England in the EU against its will.

    Jockageddon: The laughter paralysing Scotland due to the above!

  182. orri says:

    My Icelandic name is still Orri. The full transliteration turns out to be the real name of some bloke in Iceland.

  183. Ruby says:

    mike cassidy says:
    23 June, 2016 at 10:31 am

    Just voted remain with all the enthusiasm of a vibrator being purchased by Raving Ruthie.

    Ruby

    Perhaps I need one of those to get the enthusiasm going!

    I’m told that most women call them Bob (battery operated boyfriend) but that Ruth calls hers Boris. Anyone know why?

  184. Free Scotland says:

    @Ruby at 10:43

    “Adam Tomkins, explains: She locked herself in a hotel room for four days to prepare for that.”

    When the tank commander replied to what was supposed to be a previously unheard question from a member of the audience on the tv debate the other night, she answered by reading from her notes. She was like a bird pecking seed – head up, head down, head up, head down. She has one brass neck if she’s claiming those four days on expenses.

  185. Ruby says:

    Iain More says:

    Oh and where do folk get the idea that there are 27 Countries predisposed to Scotland in the EU? Where the fuck were they during our Indy Referendum?

    Ruby replies

    Ignored by the BBC!

  186. Ruby says:

    Free Scotland says:

    I didn’t watch it! I’ve just switched off to all the EU Ref stuff. It’s taking my all my time to go and vote!

    If people in Scotland feel like me then I reckon turn out will be very low.

    I’m trying to get back the enthusiasm I felt on Sept 18 by telling myself that I’m off to vote YES!

    Re Icelandic names my name is Icelandic shortened from
    ‘Ruby Er Dýrmætur’

  187. Free Scotland says:

    @Ruby

    I know how you feel. For me, the main demotivating factor is the knowledge that, whatever way I vote, I’ll be helping to put a smile on the face of an obnoxious tory.

  188. Ruby says:

    “Davidson was cheered when she said she would listen to the experts: “If it comes to a choice to listening to all of these people, even if they are experts or listening to these three about who keeps my family safe, I’m going to vote for them every single day of the week and twice on a Sunday.”
    Red Box

    Listening to the experts sounds like a very good idea I would cheer for that!

    I just wonder why the BBC or whoever organised these idiotic TV debates think it’s worth listening to non-experts like Ruth Davidson. I’m sure there are plenty experts who wouldn’t need to be locked away for four days studying their subject before answering questions re the EU.

  189. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Ian, this is catching on…
    Quiet day in the highlands, then off to Thingvellir for the Highland count later

    Allan Jarlsson

  190. Ruby says:

    Free Scotland says:
    23 June, 2016 at 11:31 am

    @Ruby

    I know how you feel. For me, the main demotivating factor is the knowledge that, whatever way I vote, I’ll be helping to put a smile on the face of an obnoxious tory.

    Ruby replies

    Don’t forget ‘He who smiles last smiles longest’

    I’m getting quite motivated now! I’m off to vote YES!

  191. Breeks says:

    Yes Tam Jardine, and all it takes is a change of oath swearing allegiance to the Sovereign people of Scotland and forsaking all others.

  192. sandycraig says:

    Ruby @ 11.36

    People quote ” experts ” all the time but they are not always right. Many of them are not experts in the field they are being questioned about but they give an opinion all the same.

    Here is an interesting fact.

    There is a guy called Philip Tetlock in USA who is a well known research guy for one of their universities. He did a survey some time ago of 284 ” expert ” predictions and his conclusion was that you would be better tossing a coin.

    Experts bollocks, same old media trick. Here is someone ” we ” think you should listen too and take his advice, but forget the fact you can toss a coin and get a prediction that way.

    Sandvik Craigjikson.

  193. Jamie says:

    Probably the best online article from a popular website I have read on the EU yet. Well done on the ballot paper by the way , I imagine that raised a few eye brows at the count.

  194. MrObycyek says:

    Sorry for the late replies on this now old thread.

    liz g wrote on 22 June 2016 at 2:46am:

    “Can ye tell me who it is ye think the SNP would debate with?
    Since ye say Yir an independence supporter can I assume that only democratically elected representatives are appropriate?
    Nae unelected polemics would do.
    So I ask again typing very slowly who would represent leave here.”

    I am a Scottish independence supporter not that it is any of your business Liz. Try sticking to the message rather than tying yourself up in knots speculating things about people you know nothing about.

    Also, I’m not sure what difference typing slowly would make to anyone but yourself Liz. You see after you type your message very slowly you would then have to POST it and then after it appears on Wings then and only then would people like myself, slow as I am, be able to READ it.

    I have written this clearly and concisely for you Liz so you can understand it. I am nice that way. As for your other question why don’t you answer it yourself as you seem to know everything? Do me a favor though, please don’t bother to respond to me as I felt like I lost brain cells reading your last post.

  195. MrObycyek says:

    Inkall wrote on 22 June 2016 at 7:05am

    “Based on the 2011 Census less than 1% of Scotland’s population were from EU members joined after 2001 which is all your “sheer number of Eastern Europeans.”
    Compare that to the 4% from outside the EU, or as an Independence supporter how about the 8.5% English born living here. I presume you have no issues getting rid of all the “dregs” from those groups either?
    I also hope you have enough Scots on hand to fill in all the jobs that those missing “dregs” won’t be doing.”

    So nothing has changed since 2011, even if you were to accept those figures in the first place, then? This is 2016. If you are going to quote figures then at least try to have them be fairly recent.

    It is a pointless exercise though as nobody knows the true number of Eastern Europeans that are currently in the UK. That is a fact. Also, try not to presume things about others without proper information there’s a good chap.

    Focus on the post, however odious you may find it, otherwise it just makes you sound petty and small minded. I was not interested in discussing people outside the EU or English born people living here that should have been self evident from my post and so you should presume nothing from me on those issues. Those would be separate issues to discuss some other time. One group at at time eh?

    I confess calling certain human beings dregs was out of order but sometimes you must say and do extreme things to get attention lest your post be lost in a sea of mediocrity. I do not blame low skilled or unskilled people for moving somewhere for the chance of a better life I just believe that there should be some effective controls in place. At the moment there is not.

  196. MrObycyek says:

    Breeks wrote on 22 June 2016 at 7:24 am

    “At the risk of sounding like a naive do-gooder the thing about being an EU citizen is that you are not stigmatised by your intelligence, background, or poverty. A poor Pole, or an Albanian with a large family has the same status as a European citizen as you or I.
    If you ban the proletariat from emigrating, but say it’s fine for the wealthy or better educated to move freely, then what kind of instability and social engineering are you afflicting on that country?
    The whole concept behind Europe is a common market place. That’s a place where in principle you can move around from place to place and the cost of living will not be making some areas a dead zone while other areas are flooded with good time opportunists. The ERM is a preparatory period for a non Euro currency to seek to align its currency with the Euro so there isn’t an exchange rate to destabilise trading and reward profiteering.
    The problems arise when new countries join Europe, and the access opens a window of opportunity for disadvantaged people to move to areas of greater opportunity. The resulting migration isn’t the problem, it is the symptom of the problem. The problem is the instability in the donor country and why its population feels compelled to leave. Surely in Scotland of all places we can get our heads around people being forced to leave their homes and seek new lives abroad, and the resulting “brain drain” where Scotland’s best export is its children. Once it starts it’s devilishly difficult to stop and your country bleeds such important talent.
    We need to see past the short term immediacy of the people, and tackle the problems of whichever country needs help to have an economy which can support its own population. If you want Europe to work, there will be pain along the way, but that’s what it’s going to take. It’s worth it!
    At its very essence, the economic migration of European labour is no different from the economic migration of well healed Southerners moving North to capitalise of the casino enhanced value of their property down South which affords them the pick of the best property in the North with a substantial windfall to live on thrown into the bargain. To alleviate that pressure and the instability it creates, you cannot inflate house prices in North anymore than you can depress profiteering in the South. If you have diligent grown up government, unlike the UK, you seek to address the economic dispararity that is the root cause of it.
    We live in a broken UK which is a rich country, but has its wealth distribution at criminal extremes, and doesn’t give people the opportunity to move very far away from the breadline. We also have social support which barely covers the cost of living living cheek by jowl with city types and overpaid civil servants who have more money than they know what to do with and bleat like sheep because their pension isn’t going to be quite as fat as they thought or their house price is stagnating and they might have to hand back tens of thousands in claimed expenses. This in the same city as ATOS are killing people too sick to work but given no choice.
    The problem isn’t immigration. The problem is fat greedy UK which wants to enshrine lifelong hand-me-down wealth privilege for some, and suffer its poor and the sick to be fighting for scraps in the street with all comers, and with similar prospects for change. What makes that such a toxic mix is that we are accustomed to having a safety net. Yes, it’s threadbare, but it’s there. Some people see it as money for nothing, and it’s prone to be abused. Last time I heard, it wasn’t just the immigrants trying to get away with that one. Heard about the supermarket which pays token tax and pays its workers so little they qualify for income support? Trust me, that’s a bigger parasite on our backs than some Lithuanian bricklayer and his mate.”

    A great post. This is the perfect way to reply to someone on the internet. I deliberately used the rather derogatory term “dreg” when describing low skilled Eastern Europeans, which was nasty and in no way helpful to the debate, because I wanted to test the quality of the replies. Some could not resist falling into the trap of trying to get snide with me rather than try to address the points but thankfully you were able to give a well thought out response. Thanks Breeks.

  197. MrObycyek says:

    Dave McEwan Hill wrote on 22 June 2016 at 9:11am

    “Do you live in Scotland? I see no sign of any knowledge of Scotland in your slimy post.

    Without immigration Scotland’s population would be below the 1910 figures. Emigration has been our problem. Emigration in reasonable numbers is no bad thing. It is the way of the world. Ambitious and imaginative people always go in numbers to new lands and new opportunities.

    The world is full of Scots emigrants. But a direct result of the removal of decision making from our country has meant that our best and ablest have always got to leave because the opportunities to reach the top of the tree have all moved away from our country.

    We have no Eastern European immigration problem. We have hard working Eastern Europeans with their families and their children filling our schools. We have no Asian immigration problem. We have probably the hardest working sector in our economy made up of Asian immigrants (who mostly vote for Scottish independence).
    We do have a huge influx of immigrants – 480,000 I think is the figure – from England, not far short of 10% of our population who are mostly economically non active and without children. They are to be congratulated for wanting to come to live out their retirements in a better place.

    But there are consequences -in the housing market for instance or our small rural businesses – where local Scots cannot match their buying power and are being forced out of the housing markets and out of their communities.

    This is a growing problem we will have to address. But carefully, because they are mostly very nice people with no desire to be other than good citizens and good neighbours.”

    Yes I live in Scotland, Edinburgh to be exact, not that this has any relevance to the discussion.

    You say Emigration in reasonable numbers is no bad thing. I would agree with you 100% on that. Immigration in reasonable numbers is no bad thing either.

    You say we have no Eastern European problem. I would disagree with you 100% on that. Even if you think that most or even all Eastern Europeans are good hard working people, and I would not dispute that, the numbers must put a strain on services. The truth is nobody knows the exact number of Eastern Europeans that are currently in the UK.

    I never mentioned anything about an Asian immigration problem so have no idea why you felt the need to mention it all. Then again you do like to waffle on. I am not against immigration. I am against the EU system of immigration. It does not work.

    Things I do not like about the National newspaper:
    1. Articles that are cut off before the end which even after all this time still seems to be happening.
    2. An obsession with Sevco in the back pages.
    3. Any letter from Dave McEwan Hill. You are quickly becoming as tiresome as Martin Redfearn. He’s another sad act who seems to spend all his time writing into the papers albeit he is worse because he is a unionist. Do you know I once stuck my willy through his letter box in Royal Circus Lane? At least I think it was his letterbox. I had enjoyed quite a few beers at the time so I could be mistaken. I never did get it back.

  198. Colin Colquhoun says:

    Scot living in Birmingham, firmly believe in the EU, but I voted to leave, I want a second Scottish referendum.

    Would Cameron and Osborne think twice about sticking the boot into Scotland?

  199. Lenny Hartley says:

    Worlds only psephologists john curtice twice gets it wrong and states pensioners mainly for remain. How come nobody picks him up on it?

  200. Brian Powell says:

    Apparently the Brit EU Referendum has nothing to do with the EU Ministers and they should mind their own business, not ask the UK do things, and the UK will do it when it suits the boys in Westminster.



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