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England’s Dreaming

Posted on February 22, 2016 by

It’s quite incredible that someone with Jim Sillars’ political experience should be so naive about the tactics surrounding the EU referendum. Regardless of your feelings on the EU itself, there’s absolutely no point in any supporter of Scottish independence voting Leave this June, and here’s why.

gazzagoal

This referendum is not about Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland – if it was, it wouldn’t be getting held so soon after our national elections. Not only does it risk overshadowing them massively in terms of media coverage (and artificially inflating UKIP’s electoral fortunes), but having just spent the last four months fighting elections, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parties won’t have the resources – human or financial – to fight another six-week campaign, especially one that many of us aren’t even particularly interested in.

But then, the very existence of this referendum is proof that Westminster doesn’t care about Scotland (or the other devolved nations). The EU referendum is about England, and England alone.

There are arguments for and against the EU from a Scottish perspective – be it farmers who depend on CAP payments (albeit the lowest in the EU, thanks to the UK government), or Scottish fishermen railing against EU fishing policy – but these are not the arguments that will be heard in the media. It’s going to be about one thing, and one thing alone, and we all know what it is, because we’ve seen it being discussed on BBC Question Time every single week for the last 150 years or so: immigration.

The only way to make this referendum relevant to Scotland is by looking at how it can help the cause of Scottish independence, and there are only two ways we can do this, and both of them involve voting to remain in the EU. They’ve been mentioned numerous times already, but they bear repeating now.

The first, and most talked about scenario, is Scotland voting to remain in the EU, but the UK as a whole voting to leave – ie Scotland being dragged out of the EU against our will. The First Minister has already identified this as a possible trigger for a second referendum, and polls suggest this could indeed be what tips some of those 55% over to our side.

(ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE KLAXON: the only person in my team at work who ended up voting No in 2014 later told me he’d vote Yes under this scenario).

The second scenario is rUK voting to leave the EU, but the UK as a whole voting to remain – ie the UK being kept in the EU purely because of Scotland. While this is unlikely to be a direct trigger for our second referendum, it would ensure that, having begged us not to leave in 2014, the next time around rUK would be asking if they could help pack our bags for us.

(And if nothing else, it would certainly be pretty hilarious to be the ones denying others their democracy for a change, after several decades of having Tory governments we didn’t vote for foisted on us by English voters.)

gallowayfarage

Now consider the scenarios if Scotland votes to leave the EU. The first is that Scotland and the UK as a whole both vote to leave the EU. In this scenario, it is utterly impossible to argue that Scotland has been dragged out of the EU against our will, and therefore there’s obviously no trigger for a second referendum.

The second scenario is that Scotland votes to leave the EU, but the UK as a whole votes to remain. On the face of it, this might appear to present the same opportunity for a trigger as the opposite result, but in reality, people would claim that the UK had saved us from ourselves, and there’s absolutely no way we’d get even 45% voting for independence if it looked like Scotland wouldn’t want to remain in the EU – after all, that was why Scotland being out of the EU was such an integral part of Project Fear.

(And anyway, this scenario is about as likely to happen as the Lib Dems winning a mainland constituency in May.)

There’s simply no tactical advantage to voting to leave the EU if you want a quick second indyref. If you’re pro-independence but anti-EU, go into the polling booth with your Scottish independence hat on (literally, if you like), hold your nose, and vote to remain. Chances are you’ll get the result you desire anyway, because if the UK is going to leave, it’ll be due to England voting that way.

But there’s one last thing. What if you DON’T want a quick second indyref? What if you think, entirely reasonably, that a 2021 scenario offers a better chance of victory and being rushed into a second Scottish vote amid the chaos of leaving the EU could be disastrous, leading to a second defeat and a hammer blow to the Yes movement?

In that situation, Scotland leaving a UK that was already outside the EU would present serious difficulties for the Yes camp when it came to Indyref 2. This time there’d be no disputing the fact that we’d face a long process to get into the EU – and whether you like it or not, whoever was in power at Holyrood at that time would be trying to. Winning a second referendum from a starting point of being unambiguously outside the EU would be a mountainous task.

And the argument that says “I don’t want independence if it just means swapping London rule for Brussels rule!” is – sorry to be blunt about this – idiotic. We already HAVE Brussels rule as well as London rule. Getting rid of one doesn’t then stop you also getting rid of the other if that’s your goal.

If you want an independent Scotland outside the EU, that argument can be fought – fairly and legitimately, on its own merits rather than being entangled in UK issues – after independence. But doing it in the wrong order would almost certainly be suicidal.

(And if you think “But English votes are our best hope of winning an EU referendum”, then that’s a funny sort of belief in Scottish self-determination you’ve got.)

Eurosceptics like Jim Sillars may not like to hear it, but voting Leave won’t help the Scottish independence cause one bit. At best it’s a wasted opportunity; at worst it’s a catastrophe. The EU referendum isn’t about us. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize.

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Grouse Beater

Westminster MPs plan to withdraw grants to academics they identify as ‘dissidents.’

Exactly how does leaving the EU protect our civil liberties?

Europe currently has two problems; it’s racist, and it has embraced neo-con economics. I can’t see how we can alter either for the better by isolationism, relinquishing our much vaunted ‘place at the top table’.

And who would want to be associated with Cameron or Boris? They’re answer to everything is to be English and think English. It will drive some English north, to Scotland.

How ineffably English, an insurmountable belief in the inherent reasonableness, impartiality, and common sense of public school politics.

ewen

I’ve never been 100% convinced of Jim Sillars commitment to independence. After his interview yesterday I’m even less convinced.

Ian Brotherhood

Well done DD.

Most of us would struggle to compose a single paragraph about all this bollocks.

Helena Brown

This is my opinion also, in general I take the things Jim say’s anything. I might be getting old but I can remember him and Margo telling everyone to vote Labour.

Willie John

I was one of those, many moons ago, who voted to join the Common Market. I did NOT vote for any kind of United States of Europe, nor did that vote mean I wanted another layer of unelected bureaucrats. So I would wish to vote Out.

But that vote would be cast in an independent country, so as Rev Stu says ‘hold your nose’ so that is what I’ll do in June.

Big Jock

I think Jim is an agent for the WM government. Everything he does nowadays seems to be mischief making!

Willie John

Woops! Sorry DD, I failed to read the writer of this article. Twas you said ‘hold your nose’ not Rev Stu.

James Mills

Agree with the writer – this referendum is little to do with Scotland but everything to do with which Bullingdon boy gets to f*** -up the country after Cameron exits stage left , smirking all the way .

Macart

That pretty much covered the lot Douglas and couldn’t agree more on what the referendum is truly all about. 🙂

Dan Huil

“Let’s keep our eyes on the prize.”

Exactly. First things first: independence. We can concentrate on the EU, NATO etc after that.

gordoz

I quite like Jim Sillars but you are spot on with this analysis Doug.

Peter McCulloch

Sorry, I once had a great of respect for him, but I don’t take any notice of Jim Sillars, says any more.

Gerbil

Pseudo-objective pro-EU sophistry.

It’s pretty obvious that the anti-EU campaign team is going to lose the ‘who do you despise most?’ contest with Iain Duncan-Smith and Michael Gove (not to mention George Galloway). If I was at all cynical, I would wonder if it wasn’t designed thus.

Steven

Did you seriously have to remind me of ‘that’ goal?

Proud Cybernat

Well articulated article, Doug. My own personal view is that should Scotland vote IN and rUK vote OUT then we should have IndyRef#2 with the same question as IndyRef#1:

1) Should Scotland be an Independent Country?

After this result, I think there should be a second referendum on remaining in the EU. Not sure if it would be better to have both questions ont he ballot paper?

X_Sticks

Analysis spot on Doug.

I fear @naefear is becoming increasingly addled in his old age. He has some strange ideas. I suspect Margo used to keep him in order much of the time.

Murray McCallum

Totally agree with article.

Everyone can have a bit of fun at the exaggerated claims of both sides as well. Just to demonstrate some of the nonsense that comes out in referendums.

Fat boab

“. . . there’s absolutely no point in any supporter of Scottish independence voting Leave this June”

. . . unless, like me, you’ll be casting your vote in rUK?

Auld Rock

Douglas makes many of the points I’ve written for another publication. Can I pick him up on his comment about the FIB/Dems winning any mainland Constituency seats and I presume he was alluding to the possibility of the FIB/Dems retaining a toehold in the Northern Isles. Let me assure you all that here in Shetland and I know that it’s similar in Orkney, that we are doing our best to dislodge Messrs Scott and McArthur but we are up against a Party with few ‘Foot-Soldiers’ but many very wealthy doners. To this end can I please ask for your financial support. You can find out how to help at:- link to crowdfunder.co.uk

Thank you.

Auld Rock

Doug Daniel

Murray – aye, “spot the regurgitated Project Fear scare story” is one of my favourite games at the moment.

Bob Mack

Independence first and foremost. That is the top priority,whatever it takes.

Remember though, if Cameron gets his way then decisions about Scotland sovereignty will be the remit of The Supreme Court in London, with POSSIBLE EU Court of Appeal. I emphasise possible.
If Cameron does not get his way then decisions about Sovereignty also revert to the Supreme Court in London with no EU appeal.

Proud Cybernat

Oh, and isn’t there some other option some twit came up with – that Scotland can remain in the EU even if rUK votes OUT? Aye, very good.

1) BREXIT
2) SCOOT

SNP x 2 – say NO to UKIP

steveasaneilean

As I said over on WGD, I want Scotland to be an independent nation. It’s up to the people of an independent Scotland to decide whether or not they wish to be part of the EU and up to the other 27 or 28 states whether or not they’ll have us.

This referendum may or may not aid us on our way to independence but to me it’s otherwise just a bombastic side show I can do without and will be largely ignoring.

I will still be pushing for independence regardless of the outcome so the outcome is essentially irrelevant to me.

Kryczek

Guess I’ll just need to suck it up then. I do maintain that if we were already independent then I’d be voting to leave but we need all the help we can get against the tory scum.

Swami Backverandah


“But there’s one last thing. What if you DON’T want a quick second indyref? What if you think, entirely reasonably, that a 2021 scenario offers a better chance of victory”

Would the “Scotland being dragged out of the EU by rUK against her will” scenario necessarily bring a 2nd IndyRef before 2021?

Untangling from EU would take years, and if Tories win again 2020, wouldn’t Scot Gov have a better argument by delaying indyref till after that,(presuming that is, that the SNP Gov is in a strong position for re-election approaching 2021) ie making a doubly strong case that the Tory referendum has dragged us out of the EU, and we also face another 5 years of unelected rule by Westminster.

Isn’t that a strong position for a post 2021 indyref2?

My feeling is that indyref2 prior to that might just be a bit too much of voteroverload for the electorate and could lead to a hardening of status quo, particularly from those folks who are most risk averse.

Johnny

Particularly like the point that it is/was a nonsense to go on about how voting Yes meant ‘swapping English rule for Brussels rule’.

Indyref was about whether you wanted to remove one layer of government and have all other staying in place (albeit, of course, with a far more powerful Holyrood).

mike cassidy

Is it too early to speculate how this eu referendum might influence the Holyrood election itself?

For example, could the next few months of “little englander tory” mentality being stuffed down our throats scupper the tank commander’s hopes of being leader of Holyrood’s opposition?

Hugh Barclay

Jim Sillars imo was a wee bit of a liability during the Indyref, I was never sure if he was going to say something that would hurt our cause, seems he is still the same.

No harm to Jim but he is off the mark here just as he was last month advocating voting RISE with our 2nd vote.

StevieCosmic

If you’re a yesser and you want to vote to leave the EU, then quite frankly you are an imbecile.

An indy Scotland IN the EU is not the same thing as a Scotland in Union being IN the EU. Scotland loses out from the EU because of negotiations undertaken by London for London. As an independent member state, Scotland has a very large hand dealt to it that would have considerable sway at the negotiating table.

Oil aside, I read an article several years ago that said there 6000 Spanish vessels, half their commercial fishing fleet, in the North Sea at any one time. Spain is the largest seafood producer in the EU, it’s integral to their culture and economy. And France too, apparently, has nearly 3000 vessels in the NS. That gives Scotland serious commercial clout in Brussels, quite apart from all the other stuff Scotland produces.

An indy Scotland outside of the largest trading bloc on the planet is unthinkable; a wee enclave of a parochial and self exiled island that largely trades with itself. It’s stupid.

Swami Backverandah

Apologies – just noticed it’s Doug.
Hi Doug, can you respond to my query please, which was essentially that I don’t see a case for another indyref prior to at least 2021 being successful.
Is there one?

Macbeda

From the Spectator article linked above .

Don’t you just love Alex Massie’s use of “Jocksplaining”.

“Britain is more important to Scotland than the EU. So you couldn’t afford independence. Got it, Jock?”

Gods why are we so cursed.

#vote SNP SNP

Robert Graham

Oh dear is this a rubbish Jim day ? Ok on this you might not agree with his view, but the insults ! Get a Grip .

Bugger (the Panda)

Jim Sillars thinks in broad brush strokes. He does follow through logically in the outcomes, I mean outcomes, of this and weigh up their consequences.

Had he been part of a team they may have been able to talk him out of these broad declarations. Margo is gone too.

This is a game on 3 dimensions we are playing her and Jim is led by his heart and not his head.

Ploughing his own furrow he just wants to be a leader and have his place in the history of an independent Scotland. The newspapers know this and egg him on.

In fact he will remembered, if he doesn’t be quiet, as a loose cannon.

Bugger (the Panda)

Ist sentence should read

Bugger (the Panda) says:
22 February, 2016 at 12:46 pm

Jim Sillars thinks in broad brush strokes. He does not follow through logically in the outcomes

chris kilby

The Twat in The Hat.

mealer

Good stuff Doug.

Swami Backverandah

Don’t have a twitter account, but occasionally take a browse, and this one left me chuckling (don’t know about copyright protocols – hope it’s OK to paste)

Lord Darling @A_LordDarling
Sterling is losing ground against the Euro this morning,thanks to the reckless intentions of the EU separatists. We might lose the UK pound.

Bill Brady added,
What’s the plan B? What’ll be the currency in an independent UK? #Brexit

Dervheid
?@Dervheid

@TheBillBrady @A_LordDarling I suspect the currency in an independent rUK will be the Mong.
1Mong= 100Diddies =10Idiots =5Twonks =2Spanners

😀

Doug Daniel

Swami – it all depends on what the people of Scotland are saying, which is why Nicola never states it as a definite trigger, merely a potential one.

Luigi

I am still genuinely undecided about Europe (as are quite a few friends and relatives, both YES and NO voters). Doug’s timely arguments certainly shine alight from a different angle and demand serious consideration.

Another argument is that if the UK does vote to leave, then Grand Britannia goes belly up very quickly and new, as yet unforeseen opportunities for Scottish independence arise.

A big attraction for voting to leave is that the establishment want the UK to remain in Europe, so why follow their orders? IMO the UK will vote, narrowly to remain, thanks to a number of factors, including the silent majority, last minute bottlers, shy (sneaky) voters and pension worries.

Still undecided, but thinking this through carefully. 🙂

Richardinho

Just to take yet another angle on it Stuart: What about those of us (such as you and I) who live in England? I am generally inclined to vote Stay, but I am tempted to vote Leave just to stir things up a bit! 😉

smapmap

Its a difficult choice facing Nicola Sturgeon – I don’t envy her position. I don’t think we’d win a second referendum right now, and we should call it only when we are sure of winning. I appreciate there is a temptation to rush headlong into it. There is a strong argument which says we called indyref2 immediately after the Brexit vote, as the unionist parties will be in disarray and unable to mount a meaningful No campaign. I have reservations over our ability to win even in these circumstances. The 55+ age age group vote remains solidly unionist as do the ‘I’m all right jacks’ and the structural issues which blighted indyref1 (currency in particular, banks exiting etc) have not been addressed – we’d basically be going in with the same proposal which isn’t good enough to change enough minds. I’d prefer we get an independence convention established for a few years and call for for indyref2 when we’re ready – and then go for a quick referendum campaign in 2020 or 2021. I think this has the best chance of winning. Put in the effort now – reap the rewards later.

galamcennalath

There was always touch of the woolly leftie about Jim Sillars. I know some people on the left see the EU is negative because they believe someday there will be a workers paradise in these island.

That is highly unlikely!

If they think the EU is right wing and fear TIPPS, then they should consider what a EU-less UK will be like under the Tories!

Civil, social and employment rights will be cast aside. When it comes to trade agreements between the UK and the US without EU involvement, how do they think those will go?

The problem I always have with idealistic left lefties is they live in a dream world which will never become reality. I’m left of centre, but pragmatic.

Janet

It’s perfectly possible for Scotland to take the place of the UK, should the Leave camp win. None of the previous problems for other European states, such as Spain. Europe is expansionist.

But remain in the UK after a Brexit? A state where serfdom becomes the future, with a micro-elite run rampant. Fascism. Imagine being a part of a state where folk think that a football match is a chance to rerun WW2? Hang on, there already!

Boris is a shrewd cookie but he’s got nothing to offer Scotland.

SNP twice over in May and a Remain vote in June.

HaggisHunter

The EU has defended Scotland against the UK on numerous occasions, for example renewable energy policy and poverty relief for the Highlands and Islands (Westminster’s Labour government kept the cash in London).
A Scotland in the UK and out of Europe would be a disaster, as our history, although silenced, has shown.

velofello

Jim Sillars likes to be thrawn.

Good article. Also a good article in today’s National by George Kerevan.

David

Well put WOS. What we should be seeking is an independent Scotland that can then decide on EU membership. If, in the coming referendum, Scotland returns a majority for leaving and England does likewise then we will have affirmed our place in the union for at least a generation. That said, I just want to remain European. The EU needs reformed and we work at that by giving it our full and committed membership. One thing fairly much missing from Cameron’s “deal” is that it needs to be ratified by the European parliament. I’m not so sure that that is a done deal. Let’s wait and see.

Almannysbunnet

I agree one hundred percent with Douglas Daniel. Jim Sillars’ approach is both short sighted and naive. He has a history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The aim, first and foremost, is independence for Scotland. There is a lot not to like about how Eurocrats operate but let’s see how we get on within Europe as an independent country before we start voting to get out based on our English experience.
As to who really runs England, the lord mayor of London or the pig lover, let Pinky and Perky have at it.

galamcennalath

One question every Scot needs to ask themselves!

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BE IN A TORY UK OUTSIDE THE EU?

Vote Stay EU, then Yes Scotland

BrainSJ

Pushing the Scottish viewpoint now could be very effective. As you say, there are specific issues like agriculture and fishing where we get a bad deal. More generally, pushing for more direct ‘regional’ representation will be raising sensitivities at a difficult time. The EU may offer things Dave doesn’t want but we do.

Sharny Dubs

Cameron’s just desperately looking for something to distract everyone from complete mess he has presided over at home and the twitching corps that is “the union”, keep your eyes on the prize x 2 indy!!

Donald Anderson

I like Jimmy, but he must know that the meejah are only interested in him now when I=s attacking the SNP. He was good on telly during the Govan by election when he bamboozled his Labour opponent by arguing about the Equivalent whereby the host country must march Euro grants pound for pound and Westminster shafted us, as always, even spending money earmarked for Strathclyde roads.

Ireland cashed in on Euro goodwill, creating the much scoffed Celtic Tiger. At least Ireland had a boom whist all we ever get us busts and busts.

Without whingeing Engerland talking us down the rest of the Euro countries are sure to be more sympathetic to an Independent Scotland

Flower of Scotland

I agree D D.

I have watched Jim Sillars antics since he was one of those who set up the SLP ( Scottish Labour Party), a breakaway party from the UK Labour Party, in 1976. They lost their seats and the SLP was disbanded.

He joined the SNP. He has always been a user. SLAB to the core!

crisiscult

perfect time for this article i.e. early in the campaign.

It reminds me of those conversations you would have with people prior to 2014 indy ref: those people who claimed they were for indy but weren’t happy with currency union, or keeping the queen, or staying in EU. Those were all valid ambitions, but would you really vote no as a kind of ‘all or nothing’ type approach?

Or the supposed international socialists who would basically say I’m for international socialism, so I’m going to vote no (i.e. there’s much more chance of international socialism if we vote to continue to be ruled by Westminster – eh, sure there is pal; it’ll happen any day if we don’t blow it by separating).

Scot Finlayson

Are the Yoons,Scottish Cringe and miserable hacks waiting to see which side their cult leader `JK` is going to support?

Peter McCulloch

I had a yes voter this morning who was going to vote no in
the EU referendum because he thought that would trigger a second independence referendum.

I had to inform him that the only way indyref2 would be triggered is if Scotland voted to remain in the EU while England voted to leave.

orri

This is where Boris might have been better sitting on the fence and saying he was going to look over Cameron’s deal and decide after that. Or he was going to take the stance of the ordinary punter on the street and remain to be convinced. Just as we know that prior to that deal the SNP stance was remaining in the EU was in Scotland’s best interest. However we don’t yet know if we’re about to be sold down the river again for the greater good of the UK. As has been said before, rights to fish in our waters was sold to the EU.

As things stand at the moment I’m not interested in voting to remain in the EU simply because it might lead to a second referendum. I’ll probably vote to stay in because it’s the right thing to do.

As has been said if the UK as a whole does vote to leave and Scotland to stay in it’s a question of how fast we can arrange a second referendum and disentangle our pensions from the rUK. God knows what’ll happen to Sterling. Certainly the underlying plan might be to trigger a devaluation in order to collapse any debt to levels that can be dealt with. Would probably ruin ordinary punters lives but the government and bankers would survive.

Kenny

I am convinced that an independent Scotland would be in a VERY good negotiation position to join the EU. I am pro-European, but I also agree with the criticism of the EU currently coming from the left (not from the right).

However, I think the whole EU-membership topic is a bit like the monarchy or NATO membership. We should not let it sap our energy and concentrate on fighting for independence above all (while using the arguments of the LEAVE camps to show up the BT side, who are largely REMAINers).

Let it be like NATO membership. Let us worry about EU membership when we are independent and then we can hold our own debate and look at the arguments from the point of view of the only thing that should matter. And that is: is EU membership good or bad for THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND?

orri

The photo does serve as a reminder that we’re approaching the 50 year anniversary of Britain beating half of Germany. be interesting to see what play is made of that in the referendum.

Swami Backverandah

@DougDaniel
OK. I get ya.
Ta.

Breeks

I’m curious as to what extent EU membership represents a contract, and what withdrawing from that contract unilaterally might actually cost in pounds shillings and pence.

I’m also curious at the link being drawn between the UK exiting Europe and this prompting a second Indyref in Scotland. Forgive my ignorance, is that hopeful conjecture? Or is it supported by some constitutional byelaw or historical precedent? No criticism or subtext intended, it’s a flat out question.

I very much fear that we are all passengers in this EU referendum, about to have our senses assaulted with Brexit propoganda, which is similar if not identical to the UKIP media agenda which saw Scotland embarrassed to return a UKIP MEP.

I really wish to be more positive, but I am struggling. What is to stop Europe heaving a sigh of relief to be seeing the back of Les Roastbeefs, and with the best will in the world, treating any Scots who want to stay in Europe as unfortunate “stateless” refugees not so very different from the current influx from war torn Middle East? That might be a bit graphic for the breakfast table, and our status as Europeans might help us, but exiting Europe is going to be a disaster if it happens. As Scottish individuals, if the UK exits Europe, our European aspirations might very well lie closer to seeking political asylum in Europe rather than continuity of our nominal membership.
Brexit might well further our chances of Independence, but that is a million miles away from Brexit being a good thing per say.

Chic McGregor
Proud Cybernat

Of course, if all of this came to pass (1. Brexit, 2. SCOOT) then it would effectively be Scotland cocking two fingers to the UK and joining the big club with a seat at the big table.

“But what currency will you use cos we’ll no’ allow yaes tae use oor poond?”

“Eff off! We’ll use the EURO.”

Robert Peffers

@Bob Mack says: 22 February, 2016 at 12:34 pm:

” … Remember though, if Cameron gets his way then decisions about Scotland sovereignty will be the remit of The Supreme Court in London, with POSSIBLE EU Court of Appeal. I emphasise possible. …”

That’s it in a nutshell, Bob Mack.

I will never forget, for a moment, the words of the laughably titled, “Secretary of State for Scotland”, who gave us his interpretation of the UK government commissioned paper on the UK’s constitution :-

“The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

His problem is that there is absolutely nothing in writing anywhere that legally backs up his, and the UK Government’s, claims.

The exact opposite is in fact the truth. I have at last found my reference to the Scottish Act of Union, Note:-

The original Treaty text is almost exactly that of the Act of Union as it was very quickly accepted and passed by both Parliaments.

link to rahbarnes.co.uk

Article III of the Treaty and Act of Union states –

III. THAT the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled The Parliament of Great Britain.

*
There isn’t a single instance, anywhere in the treaty or acts of Union, of the words country or countries. The Treaty and Acts clearly are an agreement between two Kingdoms and neither of them is designated as other than equally sovereign.

Go read it yourself and see if I’m wrong :-

link to rahbarnes.co.uk

From that point onward can anyone show where there is written evidence that England became the United Kingdom and had sovereignty over Scots or Scotland?

The reality is that Westminster has always just made that assumption and that was true even before the Scottish/English wars of independence. In fact it was the cause of those wars.

mike cassidy

Orri 1.17

Never thought of the 1966 anniversary.

And if that keeps coming up in the referendum campaign, then surely the tank commander can kiss goodbye to her 2nd place.(my 12.42)

Paul Eunson

So in the event of Scotland voting ‘stay’ only to be dragged out by a rUK ‘leave’ vote, is there a route whereby Scotland gets special dispensation to continue our own membership until such time after an Indyref #2?

bobajock

Anyone who fails to understand. Independence gets us what we want, a chance to decide on everything. Its not about getting the SNP ‘forever’, its about what comes after.

Me – out of EU, out of NATO, out of the UK and out with its nukes/wars. In it for Scotland.

You may consider me insane.

Robert Louis

No matter how you feel about the EU (which is NOT Europe, btw), the only sane way to vote if you want to achieve Scottish independence, is to stay in the EU.

There is anther point to this. Imagine the scenario, of the UK going ahead and leaving the EU, and Scotland dragged out too (because Scots voted to do so), can you even imagine what Westminster rule of Scotland would be like? Scary. It is partly the EU which keeps a check on the rabid right wingers of Westminster (which is why they hate the EU).

For me, I will vote to stay. Besides, I actually think, for all its faults, the EU has been good for ALL of Europe (mibbes not so for Greece).

Just not sure what Sillars is even thinking about.

Pauld

I am a Scot living in England. I believe in an Independent Scotland within the EU. My initial thoughts were vote leave, so as to speed along indyref2. Then my conscience grabbed me when I seen that Priti Patel,IDS, Chris Grayling etc picture for the leave side. I didn’t think I could be on the same side as that lot. Now I think I will have to bite the bullet, and live with the disgrace of voting to leave. In the hope Indy supporters in England do the same to push indyref2.

Camz

Whatever the result, if the numbers end up with England blaming Scotland for said result, also check London’s voting. With London being 1.6 times more populated than Scotland, and being fairly pro-stay, it’s a possibility that they too ‘cheat the Leave voters’.

I doubt London will be blamed though…

DerekM

Yes Douglas the EU question is for another day,one where we are sending a full delegation to take the missing chair that is the voice of our people and start negotiating properly with them as an equal partner and independent nation, i am all for giving them a chance they are still a young union and could maybe learn something from Scotland`s experiences of union,the other lot well they have had their chances.

And thats not even looking at the EU`s perspective on this what are their thought on finally being able to get access to one of the richest countries in Europe without having to go through London ,its got to be tempting for them maybe they are having second thoughts about not backing us up,but hey we forgive you,want to try it again ?

Swami Backverandah

@orri
“God knows what’ll happen to Sterling. Certainly the underlying plan might be to trigger a devaluation in order to collapse any debt to levels that can be dealt with.”
This is an interesting point, but without getting into the micro-economics of it, a broader point can be made.
Although most of the arguments to date for in/out seem to be made around immigration – as this most certainly is the emotional card in the deck – the financial on can also be played.

A lot of money has been invested in the UK position in the EU. Leaving would also cost a bomb. So the electorate can be asked, how prepared are you to walk away from that investment, pay the massive lawyers’fees to wind up the deal, and cut your losses?
Or are you more prepared to try to salvage some sort of asset worth by remaining and at least maintain some control over its value.

That’s a powerful argument for the financially minded, even if it results in dividends mainly to the one percenters. The hip-pocket argument.

Baheid

I will be voting to stay in the EU, once we get independence we can decide for ourselves.

Stellafella

the likely choice is Scotland votes remain ad all UK votes remain vs Scotand votes yes remain and all UK votes leave. In this instance we can have some bearing onthe result. Ithink the most likely trigger for a 2nd referendum s is UK ext against Scotland’ wiland i think i’s he most likely one we culd win albeit frught with danger.Any 2nd referendum is dangerous though. So if we it’s a knife edgebetween Scotland emain and all K in balance between rmain and leave I might vote leave to ensure that UK as a whole leaves and thus trggers the referendum How will I know if we’e i such a situation.I’ll work it out is the answer. The same way I know when and where to vote green on list cos I’m a stellafella. Stellafella.

Peter McCulloch

@Almannysbunnet

What has Pinky and Perky done to be associated with Cameron and Johnson?

While I voted no in the referendum in 1975 to remaining in the Common Market and am ambivalent about the EU.

And as much as I would like to give Cameron a real bloody nose, I will however reluctantly vote to stay in, for there is no way I am prepared to give any succour to the Farages’, Galloways’, IDSs’ or any of those other right wing nutters.

Scot Finlayson

@orri

There is also Her glorious majesties 90th birthday celebrations in June,

also there is the Euro Championships,where Englandshire might well be playing Turkey on 25th June in the last 16,

the English separatists will be in a hot blooded frenzy of BBC concocted Greatest Empire lies,

Englandshire staying in the Euro`s till the last 16 could be the % swing that drags all of us out of EU.

gus1940

Like several of those commenting above I have always had my doubts re Sillars, his motives and his jumping from party to party.

I just wish that he and Gordon Wilson would STFU and stop rocking the independence boat (i.e. if they sincerely believe in Independence).

JLT

Bang on the money, Doug.

It’s exactly what I said in my posts yesterday. Scotland will look at the economic argument and reject the ‘Out’ camps case for a ‘leap in the dark’.

For England, the likes of Cameron will try to keep the argument on the economic case, but papers like the Mail, along with a ton of TV coverage for Farage, the economic argument will be overtaken by the issue of immigration. And pictures of Calais each night on TV will only fuel that issue.

Cameron and Co will have one helluva fight on their hands.

call me dave

Oor Wullie’s got nae pals…but looks cheery as always.

Rennie calls for parties to unite in EU vote campaign

link to archive.is

PS:
A guy in the cafe says to me this morning
“Ye’ve just to look at wha’s in their team and ask yersel whit”!

IDS, Galloway, Farage, Osborne and Boris…I nodded!

PPS:
I see Mones put her foot in a man hole!

🙂

Marie Clark

Well said Douglas. Funnily enough, I was having the same conversation with my husband ower a bowl of soup today. We both felt that this wasn’t to do with Scotland, really just the Tories fighting amongst themselves. Anyway, it’s going to be interesting to see how it pans out.

I’m one of the undecided on Europe, it still sticks in the craw the way that they dealt with Greece. Have to give it some serious thought. Probably hold the nose and vote stay.

FatCandy

I’m convinced Sillars says these things to serve his own ends. What’re the odds he’s going to become a BBC/STV pundit now?

Those comments he made before the IndyRef about “retribution” were totally random and he must’ve know how they would be construed by the Unionist media. Shocking.

Clive Scott

Vote IN and hope our beloved neighbours vote narrowly OUT only to be overturned by those nasty Scots. The frothing bile from the English MSM will be wondrous to behold. SNP x 2 in May.

tartanfever

So I’m thinking of voting to leave the EU over issues such as TTIP, which will see huge chunks taken out of democratic legislation in favour of multi national corporations. Phillipa Whitford also mentioned TTIP constantly as being the killer of a public health system whilst campaigning in the independence referendum.

You’re now suggesting that I ignore all that and vote to remain in the EU.

What happens if we all vote to remain (all constituent parts of the UK) and in the next two years we see a TTIP agreement signed within Europe that will do exactly what I fear – more deregulation, more public to private divestment and a real threat to the existence of the NHS both sides of the border ?

The TPP, the equivalent trade agreement has just been signed between the USA and numerous Pacific rim countries, including NZ and Aus and will see the movement of high paid American jobs to the relative low cost economies of the likes of Vietnam. It’s nothing more than economic slavery. Frankly thats something that I wouldn’t entertain on any level.

Meindevon

Can’t disagree with any of that.

Would only query if rUK (England) would really help ‘pack our bags’ if we kept them in. Surely their MPs will know that they still need Scotland’s revenue to keep them afloat in or out of the EU.

Anyway, it leaves folk like me here in England with a dilemma. I’m inclined to vote to stay in but feel a leave vote from England would help Scottish independence. Any thoughts?

scunner

We watched Jim Sillars on the BBC yesterday and debated whether he had thought things through properly.

We never believed the Better Together mantra that Scotland would be booted out of the EU in the event of a Yes. There’s no precedent and having discussed the economic pros & cons for the rest of the EU at length we concluded it was a bluff.

So when Jim came out with this guff about Scotland being told to “get stuffed” – so we should do the same back – we found it hard to believe he took the BT bluff at face value. Just doesn’t make sense – is he a hothead or losing his faculties?

The other conclusion was the BBC were simply attempting to stoke division in the independence camp by giving this “big player” the oxygen of publicity for Brexit. In common with most of you on here, I can no longer watch any BBC news article without rating it on my personal “Bias Meter”.

desimond

Jim Sillars…always available…come right in…what do you need…nae borra!

crisiscult

@tartanfever
I may be wrong but didn’t individual states have the opportunity to opt certain industries out of TTIP and many did, but UK didn’t take that option?

I have my reservations about EU but in a battle of right wing ideology, I think UK governments are well in the lead compared to most other EU states and the EU as a whole.

Greannach

Well done on covering so many points so succinctly. I totally agree. I’m not a massive EU fan (especially with TTIP on the horizon), but anyone wanting independence for Scotland would have to be crazy to vote to leave the EU.

david

Ewen @12:14

To doubt Jim Sillars commitment to Indy shows a level of stupidity I have not seen on this site save for a few occasions. You sir get the prize of stupidity for today. Bravo, felicitations!

Rev. Stuart Campbell

“To doubt Jim Sillars commitment to Indy”

Absolutely nobody did that, of course. His strategic judgement was questioned, not his commitment or sincerity.

HandandShrimp

I think Jim is committed to independence and is not an agent of dismay but he is a fully paid up member of the awkward squad and always has been. His position on the EU is pretty much the line the Trades Unions took back in the 70s when Heath took us in.

I am neither pro or anti the EU. I think on balance I will vote in and if it is an out vote and it triggers Indy2 and subsequently the EU doesn’t let an independent Scotland in (unlikely I think but you never know) then I won’t much care.

That is about as sophisticated my strategy is going to get on this. As to the date, it is already obvious that UK wide EU rhetoric and Project Fear is going to swamp the air waves and the Holyrood and other elections are going to be largely relegated to page 11. I think the people with most to lose on that are the Unionist Parties.

Hell mend them.

Dan Huil

@ meindevon

Your choice, of course, but I’d prefer it if you voted Leave. Thanks.

Robert Louis

Tartan Fever at 146pm,

Do you seriously belive that the Tory Government would not implmement an equivalent (or worse) of TTIP, if outside the EU?

Seriously, leaving the EU would not save anybody since the Tory Government would then have the freedom to implement its own more aggressive version, unhindered by more reasonable voices within the EU.

Anagach

I think overall the EU is a good deal.

I do not think that the Union run from Westminster is a good deal at all, nowhere close.

There are many obvious reasons for both positions.

Onwards

I like Jim Sillars, and don’t buy any of this nonsense about him being a plant or anything. He genuinely wants independence, but as said here, he doesn’t seem offer much in the way of pragmatism. Even if your vision is a ‘genuinely’ independent socialist republic, we are never going to make a sudden leap without splitting the vote too much.

Tactical thinking also has to apply with the EU issue.
The chances of Scotland deciding the result is tiny. It would have to be almost 50/50 elsewhere for a Scottish pro-EU majority to make the difference. If we are going out, realistically it won’t be up to us.

So regardless of the timing of a referendum after Brexit, or what the EU position will be then in changed circumstances, if Scotland has voted to stay that is a massive argument to back up the #1 reason for independence – the right to decide our own future as a nation.

And I don’t buy the argument about ‘swapping London for Brussels’ at all. The difference is that the EU is an association of real nation states voluntarily pooling some sovereignty to enable a huge single market with common standards.

That’s a far better union than the position Scotland has within the UK with limited devolution. If the UK was like a smaller version of the EU, comprised of real nation states, then most people would be fine with that.

CameronB Brodie

I’ll be voting with my head and not my heart. First things first, we can deal with trade details from a much more potent position, once we have the powers of a normal independent democracy that negotiates for itself.

Does that sound selfish?

“Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow” – Lord Palmerston. 🙂

Robert Peffers

@Paul Eunson says: 22 February, 2016 at 1:25 pm

“So in the event of Scotland voting ‘stay’ only to be dragged out by a rUK ‘leave’ vote, is there a route whereby Scotland gets special dispensation to continue our own membership until such time after an Indyref #2?

There is one very large problem for the UK government in attempting to drag Scotland, Wales or N.Ireland out of the EU against their will.

It is EU rules, or rather lack of them.

There are no EU Rules that can throw out any individual EU Citizen against their will. When you become an EU citizen you have gain the protection of EU citizenship.

Even for an EU member country to leave takes years and has to be by the will of the member country’s citizens. They must vote in majority to leave.

Now consider this – the member state in this instance is called, “The United Kingdom”, it is not thus a country but a bipartite United Kingdom. Even as a Kingdom it has two parts and either could tie up the UK’s leaving through the courts for years on those grounds alone.

Then the UK also contains four countries and they too could tie up the parting of the ways for years.

It would seem that, with the right legal process, the whole UK leaving the EU as a single entity could be a nightmare for the Establishment in London.

As I point out up-thread, there isn’t a single mention of the words country or countries in the entire Treaty of Union. It thus remains exactly what it’s title calls it – A United Kingdom.

It is not a unified country but at best only a political state or perhaps a bipartite Kingdom. In fact it is both a state and a kingdom but, as it is a bipartite agreement between two equally sovereign partners, one partner can divorce the other if they do not both agree.

Thing is the Establishment has no written evidence that Westminster, as a unit, is in fact sovereign over either England or Scotland but the Treaty of Union itself proves they are a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms. All bipartite unions can legally be ended by either partner. Much like a divorce for a marriage in fact.

Westminster makes a lot of claims they have got away with for hundreds of years simply because their claims have never been challenged.

Colin Dunn

“In that situation, Scotland leaving a UK that was already outside the EU would present serious difficulties for the Yes camp when it came to Indyref 2.”

Except that when Greenland decided to exit the EU it took them 7 years for the process. If rUK votes to exit and Scotland votes to stay, we can expect several years of dawning realisation by No voters that Scotland must have indy sooner rather than later to avoid the problem you mention. By about 2021 in fact 😉

heedtracker

When he came out with this, right at the height of BBC Project Fear terrorising everyone Sept 2014, I went right off him. And look how the Britnats piled in. Very dodgy.

link to bbc.co.uk

If Scots vote Brexit, they get nothing but lose more than they probably know, because of BBC propaganda.

Doug Daniel

tartanfever: “You’re now suggesting that I ignore all that and vote to remain in the EU.”

I’m suggesting that we all keep our eyes on the bigger prize and treat this as the sideshow that it is.

In regards to TTIP, there are two things to bear in mind:
1. Its most enthusiastic supporters are the Tories (German and French governments are putting up much more of a fight than the UK government, who would sign us up to whatever the US wants)
2. It’s those very same EU regulations that TTIP seeks to get rid of which make Tories and Kippers want to get out of the EU in the first place

Tories and Kippers want us to make our own trade agreements with countries like the US. Imagine TTIP on steroids, and that’s what the UK government would sign us up to. Holiday pay, maximum working hours – Tories are desperate to get rid of these things, which they can only do outside the EU.

If you vote Leave because of TTIP, you’ll end up being saddled with something even worse, and you’ll find out what it feels like to be a shipyard worker who voted No in 2014 because they were worried they’d lose their job.

Ray

I could only read down to the first image, then I was sick. Sorry Doug.

Clapper57

Part of EU or ruled by an unrestricted Westminster with total powers should we leave EU.

Let’s not forget who some of those are in ‘Out’ camp .

Michael Gove who seeks to scrap the Human Rights act.

IDS , he who is devoid of human compassion , who has subjected inhumane changes to the welfare system that has resulted in those most in need being resigned to intolerable levels of poverty.

Priti Patel who insist Devolution should be used to make “Scotland pay for itself”. And who thought Independence debate was “great opportunity to slash spending in Scotland”.

Nigel farrage who wants the Barnett formula scrapped and believes the English are being ignored in favour of pandering to Scots who he feels the English “throw money at”.

George Galloway , jump on any bandwagon chancer , a vocal ‘No’ to Indy who at the same time was very vocal that a ‘Yes’ to Indy would result in Sotland not being allowed to be in EU , which at the time he obviously thought was a crucial and positive point to Scotland remaining part of UK, but it would seem he now thinks the same EU is now a hindrance to UK. Make your mind up George !

Chris Grayling who defended the ‘merits’ of EVEL and who tried to rush this ill conceived plan through , without proper discussion and scrutiny , in HOC . In fact the haste for EVEL was astounding considering the snail pace they move re more powers , as promised , for Scotland post Indy referendum.

So given the above it does make you wonder if there were no EU restraints what kind of laws an policies would some of these people want to impose . And would you trust being a part of a UK outwith EU with this shower of rogues.

Do you see any benefits to leaving EU for Scotland when the above people clearly have no interest in fighting for Scots interests in their own ‘Better Together’ country never mind within Europe.

I will vote to stay in EU as the alternative will NOT be beneficial to Scotland , in fact I envisage it being extremely detrimental for Scotland should the balance of power be solely with WM.

I would not hazard to guess whether an ‘Out’ vote would result in Scots wanting a second Indy Ref however I do think it would be another , perhaps significant , nail in the Better Together coffin.

Jules

There is, actually a scenario in which voting ‘Leave’ would be rational for a Yesser:

– if the Remain majority in Scotland is entirely secure, and
– if the UK-wide polls are very tight.

In those circumstances, a Yesser who either prefers to
leave the EU, or who thinks the ‘Scotland dragged out against it’s will’ scenario boots Scottish Indy, would rationally vote ‘Leave’.

Doing so wouldn’t affect the Scottish Remain majority, but might help swing the UK vote towards Leave.

You’re welcome..! 😉

gazk

Lots of us seem to think the EU are somehow protecting us from the excesses of rabid Tories. They’re not.

IMO England will vote to stay. The stakes are too high for them to be allowed to vote otherwise (nudge nudge wink wink). So the best strategic decision is for Scotland to vote leave.

Even if England vote leave as well the decoupling from the EU will be so complicated there will be plenty of scope for material disagreements between ourselves and rUK enabling indyref 2.

I don’t think Jim Sillars thinks things through any more. I remember during the indy ref campaign he would say stuff and you would be thinking don’t say that the media and Better Together will just use it as a big stick to hit everybody on the yes side with. Doesn’t look like much has changed.

bjsalba

If anyone thinks that coming out of the EU will stop us from being forced into TTIP, think again.

From the start Cameron has from the start wanted it with all his might. In 2014 at the G20 summit, this:

Britain’s Prime Minister has pledged to fire “rocket boosters” under a controversial new EU-US trade deal.

Vote out and we are likely to find ourselves the 51st State in all but name.

Clapper57

“I would not hazard to guess whether an ‘Out’ vote would result in Scots wanting a second Indy Ref however I do think it would be another , perhaps significant , nail in the Better Together coffin”.

The scenario I make is obvs if majority England vote ‘Out’ and majority Scotland ‘In’.

Gary F

Listen to the arguments, find out what you need to find out to make an informed decision and then vote what you think is right for you, your family and the country going forward.

If you want to leave the EU then vote to leave. If you want to remain then vote to remain.

God knows why we need to complicate such a simple democratic process.

galamcennalath

Doug Daniel says:

Imagine TTIP on steroids

Exactly. A Tory UK outside the EU would be Hell for ordinary folks. And the paradox is, polls suggest ordinary people will vote out because of a perceived immigration problem.

Inverclyder

Scot Finlayson @1:40pm

You’re forgetting these..

Capability Brown 300th anniversary
400th anniversary of William Shakespeare’s death
350th anniversary of the Great Fire of London
250th anniversary of The Old Vic, Bristol
200th anniversary of Charlotte Bronte’s birth
150th anniversary of the birth of author Beatrix Potter
100th anniversary of Roald Dahl’s birth
950th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings

And also a new TV show about Churchill.

Get your Union Joke flags at the ready and shout Hurrah!

Rev. Stuart Campbell

“Would the “Scotland being dragged out of the EU by rUK against her will” scenario necessarily bring a 2nd IndyRef before 2021?”

It’s a fair point, but I don’t think leaving would take four years. Could be wrong on that, but I suspect the public down here wouldn’t stand for that.

Dan Huil

@ Jules

Nope. Because Scotland’s Leave vote will have very little influence on the uk total when England on its own decides to vote Leave. Better to make sure Scotland’s Remain vote is large and therefore the difference between Scotland and England is the greatest possible.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

“Just to take yet another angle on it Stuart: What about those of us (such as you and I) who live in England?”

Well, indeed. It’s a really tricky one for me personally. I’m very, very uncomfortable about TTIP and the way Greece was treated. Had never even considered being in favour of Out before then. And there’s the tactical voting potential, as you say.

On the other hand, it’s a pretty high-risk gamble, as I really don’t want to live in a UK governed by the Tories for another decade without the EU holding them back even a little bit.

And then again again, if Scotland becomes independent I’ll almost certainly come home, so would I even have any business voting to condemn the rUK to being outside the EU?

I’m totally a Don’t Know, but only in the context of living in England.

Jimmy The Pict

One question I want to have answered

Will there be exit polls.

Dr Jim

Get ready for a series of War films on the Telly
It was the British spirit wot won it
One Nation stood alone
We’ll fight them on the beaches
Time for some ships going up and down the Thames with flags flying and music playing

Probably get some dressing up as well Pearly Queens Beefeaters on display, Chelsea Pensioners

All human life will be on show, Gawd luv a duck

Bias?….. NAW!!

Bill McDermott

If I hadn’t already done so, I would have turned off from Jim Sillars after his announcement that his first reason for voting ‘out’ was because of Scotland’s treatment by the EU during Indyref 1 viz. what Barroso had to say. That smacks of childishness to me. Barroso was following a completely different agenda in his own interests rather than worrying about little Scotland.

I like Jim Sillars for his public speaking ability but his analysis is sometimes weird.

Joemcg

Douglas, like other posters have predicted I’m convinced they will not let us see the breakdown region by region or “nation” by nation to prevent any dissent or “rebellion” breaking out. Brittania rules you know.

sensibledave

Luigi 12.53

… you better watch out Luigi, the “thought police” will be after you soon. Don’t you dare start thinking for yourself and making up your own mind. I see Jim Sillars has quickly passed to becoming a “non person” since he had the temerity to voice an unapproved opinion.

DerekM

Agreed CameronB

Even though we have been in a bad union its no reason to prejudge the EU union,we have to go and see what its all about first, we get fed nothing but nonsense about it and if its not to our liking well we could negotiate another position,and it would be our choice to make not some other countries.

But just now its a sideshow to Scotland we have to pull all the indy triggers we come across and if i am not mistaken the EU referendum has a big flashing neon signpost next it with trigger written on it 🙂

Petra

Thanks for the article Stuart. It’s clearly laid out and is no doubt totally in line with most pro-Independence supporters opinions.

Get our Independence, stay in the EU and then if we are unhappy with the way things are going call our own in / out EU Referendum at a later date.

I just don’t know what to make of Jim Sillars anymore. Sad in a way. He’s going to vote for RISE in May … another wasted vote …. more power to the Unionst elbow …. and advocates as you say voting to leave the EU. It just doesn’t make sense.

Meanwhile he’s involved in trying to unite Yes parties:

”A NEW cross-party group is being set up to unite the Yes movement behind a common plan for independence and win a second referendum in 2021 ……..

Based on the mothballed Scottish Independence Convention (SIC), the new group is intended to develop a collective, more credible Yes position on currency, taxes and pensions ……

Jim Sillars: “I think the SNP have to learn a few lessons from the referendum. The SNP has to have a look at its own role and realise that it cannot be the dominant force next time. It has to be a partner along with everyone else.” ……

McAlpine said SIC’s convener, the actress Elaine C Smith, was now in discussion with Nicola Sturgeon about securing the SNP’s participation in the new group ………. waiting beyond 2021, by which time the SNP government could be “lacklustre”, could see the chance of another referendum “gone for a generation”…….

Earlier, Sillars told the gathering the campaign for independence had to be strident and permanent, and that if the movement equivocated, support for Yes would flag.’

I’ve got no problem with Yes parties uniting but if they would stand united first and foremost behind the SNP it wouldn’t become lacklustre and support for Yes wouldn’t flag imo.

I agree that something has to be done about currency and pensions before the next Indyref but who’s to say that the SNP isn’t working on that right now?

Jim Sillars says that the SNP can’t be the dominant force next time round and yet it IS the dominant force right now. I don’t see any SSP or RISE politicians sitting in Holyrood now or in the near future.

Looks as though more and more divisions are being created here, they’re going to publicly discredit the SNP, and reminds of how the Scots have the uncanny knack of shooting themselves in the foot and falling at the last hurdle. Additionally it’ll no doubt keep the SCUM happy.

P.S I wonder if Jim Sillars would come on here and explain his reasoning behind voting for Brexit?

link to heraldscotland.com

Bugger (the Panda)

One thing we have to remember is that Cameron is now going to push for boundary reassignment and reduce the number of seats in Westminster H of C.

If I remember some time back this was going to give him another ~30 seats, potentially

The state that Labour will soon be in at Westminster with an internal war breaking out between the two wings because the Tories will be fighting their own internal war to take cameron’s crown. could leave us with Boris at No 10 and another 5 guaranteed years of the Tories on steroids.

We have to get this one right.

Stellafella

“@ Dan Huil

Nope. Because Scotland’s Leave vote will have very little influence on the uk total when England on its own decides to vote Leave.”

Julie’s point was whether individuals in Scotland should vote for Leave rationally to force a referendum when it appears UKis on a knife edge and Scotland is saely remain. Each individual would have the same influence regrdless of where they lived in determining the overall UK vote and drivel abou Scotland’s Leave vote shows you don’t hve a clue what you’re talking about. It’s a perfectly legitimate ost that she made. It wasn’t about the wole of Scotland determining the result which you ludicrously rpresented it as as if the whole of cotland voted leave then we wouldn’t have a safe Scotland remains vote in the first place which was the whole premis of thepost.

Meindevon

That was interesting Mr Peffers.

I hope the SG are getting the Constitutional experts on it pronto. From what you say the Scots, as EU Citizens cannot be taken out against their will.

This could put a spanner in the works before it gets going. (Sorry about that spanner reference!)

Clapper57@ 2.14

Well put. These are my fears exactly. A Tory UK government for decades possibly, that has no care for anywhere in the UK except London and the SE. And with no EU to reign them in…truly terrifying.

Daisy

Fantastic article Douglas. A really insightful read with excellent analysis.

I also wrote a blog post with a similar premise if you fancy giving it a read:
link to daisycollinsblog.wordpress.com

LesRoches

Interesting article and comments. I agree with the majority of comments, but can I just say my tuppence worth.

This is not about England, it is about the south east of England and London in particular, why, because that is where the money is.Working England is starved financially as well.

Immigration is a smokescreen. If any Westminster party was so concerned with restricting access to non Brits, then proper funding and systems would be in place to reduce numbers with the immigration dept. Under the Tories, numbers have shot through the roof. All of this about the City of London and future imposed regulations, nothing else. That is what they fear, hence this discussion arising in the first place.

I have read a lot of the stuff printed and discussed on what has been happening on this topic, but the money tree being shaken, does get much, proper coverage regarding how we will be really screwed by an unbridled City of London.

David

“I’ve never been 100% convinced of Jim Sillars commitment to independence”. A direct quote. My response was intended for the author of said words (ewen @12:14). Though others have said as much. My point is, he is clearly committed to Indy. We can question his arguements as Doug has done well.

I thought Jim was used by certain elements of the media during Indy, he was useful for their ends and given airtime to promote these ends. However, he is more committed than most keyboard commentators in respect of Indy and some should remember that before they post. “Engage with the brain Anderson, engage with the brain first” my old boss used to say.

ewen

David@ 1:55
And I respect your right to give your opinion, sir.
I also remember Mr Sillars when he was SLAB and no doubt his is a Damascene journey worthy of note. I wish he would keep his gob shut though.

heedtracker

I see Jim Sillars has quickly passed to becoming a “non person” since he had the temerity to voice an unapproved opinion.

That’s hardly fair, even for you sensibledave. Google “Jim Sillars threatens BP Scottish independence” and get 2500 google hits all from UKOK mainstream media Project Fear attack propaganda

About 2,690 results (0.57 seconds)
Search Results
Scottish independence: Nationalist leader Jim Sillars …
http://www.independent.co.uk › News › UK › Scottish independence
12 Sep 2014 – Scottish independence: Nationalist leader Jim Sillars threatens … Mr Sillars threatened that BP’s operations in the North Sea could be …

Scottish independence: Jim Sillars warns of ‘day of … – BBC
link to bbc.co.uk
12 Sep 2014 – Jim Sillars accused some of “subverting Scotland’s democratic process” and called for oil firm BP to be nationalised after independence.

SNP’s Jim Sillars threatens BP with nationalisation | Daily …
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Scotland-face-10-year-economic-slowdown-ind...
12 Sep 2014 – The First Minister scrambled to reassure companies after SNP grandee Jim Sillars said an independent Scotland would break up or nationalise …

‘Day of reckoning’ post-Yes vote, says Jim Sillars – The …
http://www.scotsman.com/…/day-of-reckoning-post-yes-vote-says-jim-sillars-1...
12 Sep 2014 – Scottish independence: FORMER SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars has … we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks.

Veteran nationalist threatens ‘day of reckoning’ – FT.com
http://www.ft.com › UK
12 Sep 2014 – SNP elder statesman Jim Sillars (far right) with party leader Alex Salmond at a rally … remarks by a former deputy leader of the Scottish National party threatening …

BP, John Lewis, B & Q owner Kingfisher, Asda, Next, Lloyds …
Sillars: scaremongering business leaders will face a day of …
http://www.heraldscotland.com/…/13179654.Sillars__scaremongering_busines...

Former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars has attacked “scaremongering” business … Oil giant BP would face nationalisation in an independent Scotland while … there will be a ‘day of reckoning’ for big businesses is not only threatening but also …

Big business warned of ‘day of reckoning’ if Scots vote Yes …
http://www.telegraph.co.uk › News › UK News › Scottish Independence
12 Sep 2014 – Alex Salmond and SNP veteran Jim Sillars together at Team Yes campaign (Demotix) …

He said BP will have to “learn the meaning of nationalisation” and if it …. Threatening a boycott and to nationalise a multinational is top …

Scottish independence: Day of ‘celebration’ not ‘reckoning …
link to bbc.com

13 Sep 2014 – Alex Salmond praises former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars but says … Mr Sillars had said oil giant BP and the banks faced a “day of … Pro-Union figures said the remarks were threatening to firms voicing legitimate concerns.
Jim Sillars’ threat of a ‘day of reckoning’ exposes the darker…

blogs.spectator.co.uk/…/jim-sillars-threat-of-a-day-of-reckoning-exposes…

12 Sep 2014 – Sillars is a former SNP deputy leader but now not part of the apparatus- so he … We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors. ….. of either calling them liars or threatening them seems to be working.
Ex-SNP Deputy Vows To Nationalise Firms Worried About …

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/…/scottish-independence-jim-sillars-nationalis...

12 Sep 2014 – Companies worried about Scottish independence like oil giant BP will be … Jim Sillars said that John Lewis department stores could be …

That’s just page one of a vagueish search.

On and on it UKOK google goes sensibledave. Why Sillars came out with this ridiculously damaging thing, to paraphrase what the author of this post calls, someone with Jim Sillars’ political experience should be so naive about the tactics surrounding the Scottish referendum, is anyone’s guess.

Maybe he’ll tell us one day.

Dan Huil

@ stellafella

Eh?

Thepnr

For anyone concerned that the votes in Scotland will be lumped into one big pot so as no one knows precisely how the vote was broken down in different areas.

That according to the Guardian from 2 days ago will not be the case.

Counting will occur overnight as in a general election, and a declaration will be made in Manchester town hall after votes have been collated from 12 different regional collation centres.

Results will be declared as soon as they are known by the 382 local counting officers. There are 380 council areas in Great Britain plus one area for Northern Ireland and one for Gibraltar. Regional and national running totals will be available.

link to archive.is

David

I hear you Ewen (“I wish he would keep his gob shut though”). That is why I mentioned the media, I thought on several occasions that I wished he had shut up a bit.

Jim is not someone I go to for keenly devined perspective and/or best strategy advice. I just think it obvious he has been very committed and therefore untils he says otherwise I would give him the benefit of the doubt. Knocking out quotes without substance can dictate the way peeps interpret your musings. I just believe a statement with no qualification such as yours does a disservice to the whole arguement.

ewen

David@2:48
I have been for independence longer than Jim Sillars and have done my bit when being an SNP supporter was seen as a joke and required a hard skin and commitment.
I reserve my right to give my opinion and don’t you doubt my commitment.

De Valera

Excellent article sir, if Rev Stu is ever unable to run the site due to a surfeit of blood sugar, then it’s in capable hands.

You have summed up my thoughts on this subject, although much more eloquently and thoughtfully of course. It shows how much we are valued in this “family of nations”.

Finally, imagine hanging around with an extremist tub thumping numpty like that. I thought more of Nigel Farage.

David

You do and I didn’t Ewen. That would be the polar opposite of what I intended. For example If you came out with so-called ‘off-message’ musings re -indy, I wouldn’t doubt your commitment to Indy. I may disagree as Doug has done with Jim Sillars. However, I wouldn’t come out with ‘that Ewen, eh wiz never sure o’ his indy credentials, aye he talked the talk bit whit aboot ah that stuff he’s been saying eh? Whit kin eh mak o’ thon?’

Wishing you a good day!

gerry

Lost all respect for Jim Sillars the week before the vote when he started mouthing off about renationalising industry. More distance he is kept at the better. He has no control, and no clue.

schrodingers cat

” a second Scottish vote amid the chaos of leaving the EU could be disastrous,”

polls show Scotland will overwhelming vote to stay in. not worth considering other senarios.

the 55% ensured that our future is decided elsewhere, the EU ref isn’t our bag

if England votes to leave, will there be chaos? a run on the pound is a possibility, indeed it is happening today.
but will businesses really come crashing down?

this is the only point worth discussing since it will be the background upon which indyref2 will be fought.

the fear of financial collapse may be more real than any actual collapse, the longer we wait after june 23rd for indyref2, the greater the risk that the 55% will become accustomed to leaving the eu and vote no again in indyref2

indyref2 needs to capitalise on the fear of financial collapse, real or imagined, virtual or actual,

September 18th 2016 is a real option now, even if you believe that any impending financial collapse is only an imagined fear.

the next opportunity will be 2017, after the may council elections. if there is a virtual collapse, eg a run on the pound, waiting till then, could be a better option, but it is a risk for indyref2 if it doesn’t happen

Fred

This is a superb article, time for auld buggers like Jim Sillars & Gordon Wilson etc’ to take a back seat & away & play bools. Leave it tae the young yins, they’re the future, it’s their Scotland!

PS, Jim Fairlie was talking similar mince in today’s Nash.

Jack Murphy

The Commons Chamber is overflowing—-David Cameron must be about to speak I think.

link to parliamentlive.tv

Fred

Just love this from Alan Rioch’s article in Friday’s Nash, by Scotland’s first woman poet published, Elizabeth Melville, Lady Culross, in 1603.

“Though tyrants threat, though Lyons rage and rore, Defy them all and feare not to win out!”

tony O'neill

Here is my prediction for what its worth,i predict that the eu referendum in Scotland will be rigged in favour of no and here’s why.Westminsters unionist elite has too much to lose if we vote to stay and they vote leave,they certainly don’t want to give us another indy ref do they??. Many other people myself included think they rigged the last one and I suspect they would do it again for their own political gain.

Dr Jim

Scottish Widows announces it’s upping sticks and moving to Londinium thus scuppering any chance of a financial centre in Edinburgh should Scotland decide to be Independent

Remember if we voted NO it would never happen and we’d all be safe as wee houses (They said)

Is somebody going to tell me the Tories didn’t plan this it’s just a coincidence

Project Confusion in England, Project Fear and doom back on
in Scotland

Is it not about time we gave the lot of them a project kick up the Arse

See aw this “W’ell dae whitever we waant tae youse an yees kin dae nuthin back ya wee scroats”

It beginning to irritate a tad

Big Jock

Being Scotland in the UK right now. Is like being in a gang at school,where the leaders do what they want and the lackies do what the leaders tell them to do.

Then there are the quiet ones who wonder why they are still in the gang, as everybody else in the gang ignores them. The gang becomes more and more remote and irrelevent to the quiet ones. Eventually they just walk away and nobody even blinks an eye.

Scotland has emotionally left the UK already we just need to tie up the physical bonds.

Dr Jim

Leave Old Jim Sillars alone naebdy’s paying attention tae him
and it’s aw he’s got #Gotta Grumble

Proud Cybernat

The EU ref is important to Scotland if, for no other reason, than it will allow us a great opportunity to demonstrate, with a multitude of examples, to many of the IndyRef#1 NO-voters how the Colonial Media in this country operates and that they cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything.

I think many of these voters wore the blinkers regarding YES complaints about the media during IndyRef#1. They probably knew in their hearts what was going on but it suited them to simply ignore it, turn a blind eye to it because it served their needs.

It won’t be so easy for these voters to ignore the Colonial Media in this referendum. And it’s odds on that the corrupt Colonial Media will twist and bend facts that will outrage many of them. And when these former NO-voters have their eyes opened to just how corrupt the Colonial Media really is, they won’t ever trust them again. Which will make IndyRef#2 all the easier to win these voters over to the Indy side.

This is a BIG opportunity folks – let’s use this referendum to make sure the former NO-voters learn just how corrupt the Colonial Media is in this country.

ewen

David. We will just have to differ.
You have a good one, too.

michael diamond

If scotland vote to leave the eu along with england, then all i can say is “thanks dad for my irish passport, because the westmonster government will make you squeal with pain.and europe wont want to know us.

Dr Ew

Hm. A lot people posting ill-informed and embarrassing drivel about Jim Sillars on here. Makes a change from kicking Patrick Harvie or dissing Cat Boyd, I suppose.

This “Two legs good, four legs bad!” shit from anyone who deviates one iota from the SNP orthodoxy is pretty galling. Perhaps some folk should bear in mind it’s quite possible we’ll be trying to put together another cross-party Yes campaign to win a second referendum before the year is out. Spiteful, not to say idiotic, remarks about allies in favour of independence isn’t going to help.

Big Jock

New condition diagnosed for an irrational hatred of the SNP, which prevents logical thinking.

Murielgray Syndrome.

Even better I went into look at her Twitter and she has blocked me! Yet I have only ever questioned her hatred of the SNP.

CameronB Brodie

tartanfever
What and leave us at the mercies of rampant Tories unhindered by European socialists? Remember, England has a supine bourgeois and a fragmented proletariat. Did that sound a bit Marxist? Perhaps but that’s not the point. Might it not be better to have a seat at the negation table, if the day ever came that Scotland chose to leave?

“The two great chemical elements of this blanketing English fog are ‘traditionalism’ and ‘empiricism’: in it, visibility – of any social or historical reality – is always zero … A comprehensive, coagulated conservatism is the result, covering the whole of society with a thick pall of simultaneous Philistinism (towards ideas) and mystagogy (towards institutions), for which England has justly won an international reputation.” – E. P. Thompson

Re. The EU and the TTIP. This is how the world is being organised. The No vote ensure Scotland would have no say in how it affects Scots. Not the smartest move, IMHO.

orri

Voting No in Scotland in the hopes that the result will still be stay/leave isn’t going to work. All that will happen is the apparent disparity between Scotland and the rUK will be less. Besides which it may even tip the result into a narrow victory for leave in Scotland.

Again we need to see what Cameron has managed to get before we feel safe from TTIP. Perhaps he’s got special permission for the UK to join.

Ian Brotherhood

It would be good to get AuldA’s input on this.

Where is he these days?

Matt

Don’t assume that Scotland, voting in 2021 to leave a UK that had already left the EU would face a long road back in. Brussels, stung by Westminster’s rejection of its project, might well offer Scotland a quick route back, if for nothing else, then to slap London back in the face for having the cheek to leave them in the first place.

CameronB Brodie

DerekM
You’re obviously far more tolerant and forgiving than myself, I was only thinking about whether it is better to be in the tent or not. 🙂

carjamtic

The view from the North

Elvis has already left the building,recently had a to listen to some mates from the north east,(boro,mackems,geordies)ordinary working guys,(no nut jobs)their minds are already made up.

Totally scunnered with immigration (+labour party)they want out,no debate to be had,no reasoning,no discussion on media etc.

Just a wee straw poll,if you will, but sobering thoughts.

Nana

Good article Doug Daniel. My own worry is mainly TTIP, the secrecy behind it all is very bad for democracy. Also how they rode roughshod over the Greek people was just nasty.

But just thinking about the tories unfettered fills me with dread so I will vote to stay in for now.

Alex Salmond on Cameron’s folly

link to pressandjournal.co.uk

skozra

Great article Douglas, very well explained. thank you

Dr Jim

We should take account of what other sovereign nations around the world think says David Cameron

Just not Scotland

yesindyref2

Agree apart from the 2021 scenario with the UK outside the EU. In that case the EU would make no difference to the YES campaign, and couldn’t be used against it. We’d already be out as you say.

I had difficulties with this some time ago, but have worked it out this way.

If there was no Indy movement, or it had very little support and Scotland was firmly stuck in the EU I’d vote leave. I think the UK does a very poor job of getting the best out of the EU, squabbling, blusterng, trying to bully, then getting put in its place by Germany and France, and meekly complying.

On the other hand small countries will get some surprising concessions because they don’t try to force their will on the rest, and working together, get everything they really want from the EU “behind the scenes”. iScotland would be such as small country in the EU, and since I think we’ll be Independent within 10 years regardless of anything, I will be voting to Remain.

1). iScotland will be on the council of ministers and get 1 vote the same as the other 27 / 28. That means big member states can need to court (i.e. bribe) smaller member states to get their vote in support.

2). iScotland will have roughly twice as many MEPs in the European Parliament which again means in conjunction with other small countries, iScotland gets to wield more influence than our size.

The EU was designed that way to give small countries a chance. So I would want to give iScotland a chance for 5 years, and then hae a confirmatory IN / OUT referendum, similar to the one the UK had in 1975.

Petra

@ Dr Jim says at 3:37 pm ….. ”Scottish Widows announces it’s upping sticks and moving to Londinium thus scuppering any chance of a financial centre in Edinburgh should Scotland decide to be Independent. Remember if we voted NO it would never happen and we’d all be safe as wee houses (They said). Is somebody going to tell me the Tories didn’t plan this it’s just a coincidence. Project Confusion in England, Project Fear and doom back on
in Scotland. Is it not about time we gave the lot of them a project kick up the Arse. See aw this “W’ell dae whitever we waant tae youse an yees kin dae nuthin back ya wee scroats.” It’s beginning to irritate a tad.”

Dr Jim there’s another way to look at this. If we manage to get our Independence through Brexit I’d imagine that many English companies would relocate to Scotland and we would get / have our financial centre one way or another.

michael diamond

Agree with fatboab 12.31. As i live in england i ( along with others i know) shall be voting to leave the eu. Were i residing back home in scotland, i would be voting ( for the time being) to remain in the eu.

Clapper57

Dr Jim says:
22 February, 2016 at 3:37 pm

“Scottish Widows announces it’s upping sticks and moving to Londinium thus scuppering any chance of a financial centre in Edinburgh should Scotland decide to be Independent”

Remember if we voted NO it would never happen and we’d all be safe as wee houses (They said)”

Yes Dr Jim, and laughingly some yoon in response to tweet by Peatworrier mentioning the statement from Scottish Widows that they would NOT leave Edinburgh if Scots voted ‘No’ in Indy Ref.

Yoon’s tweet response to Pearworrier :

“It’s your refusal to accept the ref and continuing to agitate for another which caused this”.

Yeh Yoon , you got finger on da pulse…minus da feckin beat.

His stooooopid tweet smells like a typical Yoon’s lone idiotic rationale but , at the same time , sooooo craving some credit for , if he’s really lucky, perhaps instigating another chain reaction Tweet from like minded moronic Yoon Twits on Twitter.

#RegurgitatingShiteForShite’sSake

#SaveUsFromYoonBuffoons

galamcennalath

Nana says:

” Alex Salmond on Cameron’s folly

link to pressandjournal.co.uk

Very good. AND, there’s a wee poll at the bottom with some interesting results.

Petra

O/T

I think this is well worth watching again. The obnoxious Jo Coburn versus George Galloway re. Brexit? on Daily Politics earlier today.

Thanks for the video Jack (Jack Murphy).

link to tinyurl.com

Macart

@Yesindyref2

Sounds feasible to me dads. Gives an indy Scotland a reasonable period of time to see the lay of the land and assess how favorable/or not independent membership is.

mike cassidy

Douglas Carswell is worried the BBC may be biased!

And one or two people agree!

link to twitter.com

Legerwood

I saw Mr Sillars’ interview and was quite taken aback when he said he would vote for leaving the EU because of the way the EU behaved towards Scotland during the indyref. Clearly he had forgotten, as have others, about Mr Junkers speech shortly after he became President of the European Commission and the statement he put out afterwards when the MSM willfully misrepresented his remarks as saying that Scotland would not be allowed into the EU for a number of years.
link to bbc.co.uk

Mr Sillars’ comments/outbursts are not always helpful and are always pounced on by the MSM and given maximum exposure as a way of embarrassing the SNP. Ditto Mr Wilson.

K1

O/T Jack you put a link up the other day with Nicola’s interview wi Andrew Marr, any chance you or anyone else can re post…ta.

Hood

K1

this what you are looking for? Hopefully it will appear quickly as normally it is an hour or more before any of my posts appear, hence I don’t usually bother.

link to youtube.com

Not Convinced

The depressingly ironic thing (IMHO) about the way the EU “debate” seems likely to centre on the immigration issue, is that even if the UK does leave the EU we’ll still have an open unpriced border with an EU state! I am referring, of course, to the Common Travel Area that the UK has with the Republic of Ireland.

Lollysmum

K1
Here you go: Nicola on Marr
link to youtube.com

K1

Jim Sillar’s comments are always taken out of context, his reasoning is oft times convoluted but is ‘rational’ to him. As others have said ‘they’ use him and his utterings to undermine the SNP’s stance etc. I like others would rather we didn’t get into a personal ‘dig’ culture on here about those who differ in their outlook but nonetheless have Scotland’s best interests at heart. He’s a good man, wi a good heart in a world riven wi spivs wi real threats to our cause. He’s also just as entitled to his opinion on the eu matter too.

Thanks for this Doug, we have to vote in to get out.

K1

Thanks Lollysmum 😉

call me dave

Fiscal framework update:

link to archive.is

Ken500

It’s great watching the Tories tearing themselves to bits.

£ done against the Euro

yesindyref2

@Rev and others
Agree about Greece being treated in a disgusting fashion, if the EU doesn’t reform at an accelerated rate with the impetus Cameron has actually given it (a la carte membership), then it will go its own way, and the euro with it.

TTIP? Yes, bad, but then it’s just a formalisation of what’s been present underneath anyway from the point of view of the US getting what it wants. For decades in the UK, less so the rest of the EU.

Ken500

£ down

gerry

Dr EW 348
“Hm. A lot people posting ill-informed and embarrassing drivel about Jim Sillars on here.”

No. People noticed how Jim Sillars started stating what Scotland would do after the referendum, a week before it happened and that rang alarm bells with many. Who the feck is Jim Sillars to be telling the scottish people what was happening with their country let alone in advance of their vote. That old sense of entitlement rearing it’s ugly head before we even voted.
The embarrassing drivel came from Jim’s mouth. You swallow it if you like.

Nana
Ken500

Jim Sillar’s has a grudge against the SNP.

Dr Jim

@ Petra

Whatever comes out of the mouths of our “Leaders” and their lackeys will always be linked with project fear no matter what they say

It’s all about control and always will be unless the Yoons see sense and realise they don’t count as much as we don’t count

Nobody in the history of mankind has ever negotiated self determination or freedom without paying a price and our price and the cost to us is Punishment

I wrote earlier I’ve never believed Englands desire to control Scotland is all financial though they have benefited greatly from us

I believe it’s our location to the north for strategic reasons that Westminster fears Scottish Independence and what we might do with it and with whom would we ally ourselves

Any country in the world would give their arm to have sovereignty and access to that area so the Banks the Financial Institutions can say what they like to me and it means nothing but to the old and the Feart and the Yoons, like Digby Brown “It matters”

I am in little doubt if the Yookay thought it was a stick on we were going for sure, they would attempt to find a legal way to roll in the military and disestablish our Parliament to try and stop us

If we do manage to get another Referendum I believe it should be a flash quick one to give Westminster no time to prepare their allies for what I’m sure would be a vicious and terrible onslaught of the worst kind

On that cheery note ahm away out for bread

nycgype

“Richardinho says:
22 February, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Just to take yet another angle on it Stuart: What about those of us (such as you and I) who live in England? I am generally inclined to vote Stay, but I am tempted to vote Leave just to stir things up a bit!”

Ha, ha, I work in London 3 days a week and will be vigorously lobbying my work colleagues to Vote Leave along with good old Boris…not that I think they should.

K1

And Hood, thanks! 🙂

yesindyref2

@Ken500
Yes, £ down. Good news for Scotland probably, good for tourism, good for manufacturing, good for food and drink exports. Can’t really think of a downside for Scotland apart from people wanting to go abroad on holiday. Which means maybe they’ll stay in Scotland and spend their money, yippee!

Macart

@call me dave

Whitehall spokeswonk on agreement imminent – “I hope so”. 😀 LOL

Valerie

Good piece, Mr Daniel. Covers how an Indy supporter should think strategically.

Sterling has already taken a hit, following BoJo coming out as BoGo.
link to ibtimes.co.uk

The biggest fall since 2010. So the fall wasn’t even as drastic in 2014, and that happened when Yes has a surge. The market’s knew Scotland leaving would hit London’s revenue.

For those reading, and want to try and keep an open mind, please do some research, just as many of us did prior to the Scottish referendum. I support independence for economic and social reasons.

If the possibility of independence did not exist for us, I would be hysterical at the thought of Brexit, and being at the mercy of unfettered London rule.

PLEASE, be open minded, and why would you not, and go to Business for Scotland. Gordon Macintyre-Kemp is an excellent writer, who has many short, sharp pieces on the EU on the site.

We are so LUCKY to have such a resource as Business for Scotland, sharing such great information.

Please for those conflicted or against the EU, don’t be close minded, and seek the other side out.

David MacGille-Mhuire

Personally, I have had enough of this “bi-partite” treaty as it was always a stitch-up from the get go.

Let these events unfold and then dissolve/abrogate it.

Walk away.

Have had it up to my back teeth with it and its generations of imposed inequality and poverty and – to be frank – cleansing of the population via forcing them to go overseas to make a crust and, hopefully, a difference to folks’s lives and the sum of human endeavor and knowledge but still to be hunted down by the apparatuses of the Anglo-British state; to wit and briefly, their embassies and consular missions, the “British” Council apparatchiks et al networking with the locals to fcuk the Jocks as they did with the Irish and sundry other “separatists” from the Anglo-“British” empire.

Enough and on our own terms and time-scale.

K1

Hey I’ve just noticed the wee twitter sidebar on Wings’s pages…when did that happen…crikey **chucks alert reader badge over a hedge**.

yesindyref2

@Dr Jim
Scottish Widows – the Unionists are already spinning that as being because of the referendum, uncertainty about a 2nd Ref and Scotland staying in the UK. That has nothing to do with it.

This has been ongoing since 2009 or before, long before the Indy Ref. It has everything to do with SW being demutualised in 2000 and taken over by Lloyds banking group (LBG). Who own Clerical Medical (CM), Halifax Trust and 5 others. It was a plan to move SW into CM – or vice versa – since 2009, and then rename it as SW, something which is coming up in Court I think, the date of renaming was 31st Dec 2015.

SW / CM charge high admin charges, but have low returns. SW reinvested much of its funds in the other 7 LBG low performing trusts, probably to give them a boost, and I don’t think it’s been doing very well, I follow financial news and it’s been in it a few times.

One is when it (and the others I think) listened to Fred Goodwin about RBS and ABN. Whoops. It was going to sue RBS for £400+ million along with the other 7 trusts, but apparently the Treasury leaned on it (they – we – do own bits of Lloyds), so it dropped the case. That’s a rough and ready summary of it all.

No news of job losses yet that I know of, but on the other hand S&P and Moody’s did warn that Scotland was exposed by 1200% of GDP in the event of Independence and that affected our credit rating, and that it would be better for Scotland if we shed some of our financial sector.

Well, I don’t think this is the first, and it won’t be the last before Indy Ref 2, so while nobody would want to see job losses, it does have the upsides of reducing our financial exposure, reducing the financial sector GSP relative to the whole of Scotland’s GDP, and hence increasing our credit rating and hence lowering our borrowing rate.

yesindyref2

I’m in both camps on Jim Sillars. He did do damage just pre-Ref with his nationalisation and punish the big business nonsense, but on the other hand every Movement needs its stirrers and agitators – and even big mouths – and he’s one of them. His views are his own.

Ken500

Could the Scottish Gov not refuse to have an EU referendum in Scotland? Save a lot of time and money.

Scotland could stay in. The rest of the UK can do what it wants.

Ken500

Jim Sillars is unelected. He wants Independence but has a grudge against the SNP.

galamcennalath

P&J POLL: Will EU referendum drive Scotland toward Indy Ref 2?

Yes (and I’ll vote for independence) 66.43%

No (and I still support the union) 20.4%

Yes (and I’ll vote to remain in the Union) 7.04%

No (but I still want independence) 6.13%

What I find most interesting is Yes Scotland splits ~1:10 Leave:Stay.

Nana

O/T fiscal framework

link to twitter.com

galamcennalath

Nana says:

“fiscal framework

link to twitter.com

There may be an element of WM trying to show who is boss and who is in charge. “How dare those uppity Jocks impose timetables on us! The trouble with Jocks is the just don’t know how to hold a begging bowl!”

Malky

Oh dear. Muddled thinking, I fear. Great article – a referendum based on Scotland in/England out would be a perilous affair.

yesindyref2

OT
That’s funny, STV News it sounded like “The Treachery Secretary Greg Hands …”

Quite apt.

Robert Peffers

O/T

I never thought I’d ever meet one but today I did.

I met a talking version of the Daily Record. It was unvarnished DR articles spouted loudly to the World at large.

You couldn’t speak to this guy it went whooshing right over his head. Nothing got through to him and his mantra was word for word Daily Record.

The guy’s in a wheelchair and spouting all the Daily Record SNP BAD, hate alecsammin, hate nicolasturgeon flying all roads. He said he would chase and SNP canvaser who called at his door and if he had a gun he would shoot them. He is complaining about the poor performance of the SNHS.

He quotes his own bad experiences at the Kirkcaldy Vic and how it was all the SNP’s fault. He Followed up by quoting cases from the Daily Record. I pointed out the Fife Health Board runs the Vic and the Fife Health Board is heavily membered by the Fife Labour Party, he changed the subject.

He got on about the poor service of the Local Kelty GP Health Centre, and it was all the SNP’s fault. I pointed out that the Kelty Health Centre was the first Self-financing GP practice in Scotland and the Health Centre built by the Fife Health Board so every penny saved on patient care was a penny more to the practice members. Furthermore. the Health Centre was probably built under the Labour Party’s PPI/PPP system and probably not yet even fully paid up for.

It really was just like a talking Daily Record. He said that the alecsamiin said Scottish oil was funding Scotland. I said that was strange as the revenues from oil all went to Westminster and Scotland’s funding was via the Block Grant that was not affected by the price of oil.

It was like some religious fanatic chanting credos and every word of it directly from the Record.

Nana

@galamcennalath

I’m sure they will be thinking like that. Supreme beings in their own tiny minds.

Thanks for putting up the P&J poll, I forgot to mention it at 4.15

Les Wilson

Cameron says the UK will peak as one nation, in reply to a question over brexit.
That is us put in our place then!

So will Scottish votes be tallied separately, does not seems so, but happy to be corrected.

Archie Hamilton

Personally speaking I will be voting to remain in the EU with some reservations but in any event I think that the vote will be YES to the EU throughout the UK.
The bigger issue from a pro-Independence standpoint is for the Scottish Government to elicit some form of assurance from the EU as to where that leaves us in the future.
Many people voted NO in 2014 because they couldn’t get any firm answer about our position vis-a-vis the EU in an independent Scotland.
I certainly don’t want to strengthen the “Better Together” stonewall for the next referendum – you can be damn sure that the UK Government won’t seek to get anything clarified.

Bill Steele

Will Westminster allow the votes of each country to be counted separately? If they don’t and insist that all the ballots be sent to London, or some other English city, to be counted, how will we know how Scotland voted. Would exit polls carry any weight? I doubt it.

Could the Scottish government insist on having the Scottish vote counted separately, and even overrule Westminster on this? If yes, on what grounds?

galamcennalath

“This is just the nationalists seeing the EU referendum entirely through their prism of independence,” David Mundell told BuzzFeed News

That will be the British Nationalists, I assume? All very confusing.

yesindyref2

@Nana
My MSP. Clued up. Big asset. Knew the game before Smith even sat for the first time.

One_Scot

Now that this EU thing has kicked off, it looks like England is no longer interested in dealing with Scotland any more, oh, wait, I forgot, it’s always been that way.

Don’t forget SNP x 2 come May, I think they may need a little reminder that we’re not going anywhere any time soon.

liz

I will vote yes to remain in the EU.

When, hopefully soon, Scotland votes for indy, we can cut our own deals, remove the NHS from TTIP

Give Greece our full support, get the fisheries quota changed and so on

Thepnr

@Les Wilson

So will Scottish votes be tallied separately, does not seems so, but happy to be corrected.

They will be tallied separately according to the Guardian. See my post at 3:02

yesindyref2

@Archie Hamilton
Ah well, Sturgeon speaking in London and the rest of the UK in favour of staying in the EU. I wonder how many of the other EU countries she might happen to visit to talk about the situation over the next 4 months, now Angus Robertson has the PM on record in the HoC?

CameronB Brodie

Apologies, I wrongly attributed my earlier quote, which should have been from Perry Anderson.

Swami Backverandah

Witness Cameron’s vicious attack on one of his own in Parliament today.
Less it leave any doubt just how vicious any Tory will be with regard to any others.

Les Wilson

Thepnr says:

Hi, did read your previous post, counted in Manchester?, oh well that will be our vote sealed then. Yes will be Yes, But No will be yes too!
No local counting,no Scots doing their own count, democracy dies.

Scot Finlayson

I just hope Nicola and the SNP don`t contaminate/befoul themselves with sharing a pro EU platform with some of the more despicable Yoons like Kezzy and Ruthy.

yesindyref2

@Les Wilson
link to electoralcommission.org.uk

“6. Regional Counting Officers will be responsible for coordinating the delivery of the referendum in their electoral region and will collate the local totals into a regional total.
7. Counting Officers are responsible for administering the voting process in their local area. Their duties include running polling stations, managing the postal vote process and counting the votes cast in that area.”

Manchester is the overall tally cunt, not regions, not local totals.

gerry parker

Les,

Votes are counted by the Counting (returning) officer for each Scottish LA. They are appointed by the CEO of the Local Authority – who sometimes appoints himself so he gets a bit of dosh on the side.

Since the Local ratepayers, and the Scottish Government fund the Local Authorities I would find it difficult to understand the Counting officer declaring “I have counted all the votes accurately and sent them all down to England, they will report the result”

msean

I read online about the possible increased powers of the Scottish Parliament in the event of an UK exit from the EU. I don’t believe that for a minute,Westminster can withdraw powers at anytime from the Scottish Parliament.

I will vote to remain so that we aren’t left carping from the sidelines. It seems the warnings re Scottish independence are coming true,but within the UK and now ‘the out of the EU’ scenario looms larger.

Iain More

I agree that this Referendum has nothing to do with Scotland. I will still be voting to leave though.

I have already heard the absurd argument that those that voted Naw in Sept 2014 should vote to stay in EU as it would help preserve the effin UKOK Union.

I couldn’t contain my glee at the Brit Peso taking a hammering on the crooked currency markets. Time to dig oot those Norwegian spondoolicks I kept stashed under the bed.

Oh the “volatility” of the poor wee Brit Peso, it canna stand on its ane twa feet athoot the EU, hee bloody haw!

Thepnr

Hi Les

Please read again, specifically:

Results will be declared as soon as they are known by the 382 local counting officers.

Regional and national running totals will be available.

Results in all 382 council areas “will be declared as soon as they are known” This includes the 32 Scottish ones.

“Running totals will be available”.

Couldn’t be any clearer to me or do you think I’m missing something?

yesindyref2

Oops, sorry, must have been thinking of Spanner. That should be “Count”.

call me dave

EU voting procedure.

link to en.wikipedia.org

look at the section

voting areas and counts + table.
Scotland 32 local voting areas

Ken500

Scottish Widows will be heading back to Scotland.

£1 down – borrowing up, import costs up.

‘Fiscal framework’. The Tories are just useless.

Swami Backverandah

@yesIndyref2
“Manchester is the overall tally cunt, ”

I’d like to buy a vowel thanks 😉

Grouse Beater

The list just keeps getting bigger and bigger: link to wp.me

Orri

Will be interesting to see how much Scotland’s electoral register increases in the run up to the Holyrood election and if it maintains it after. Unlike the referendum there’s certain to be exit polls so questions will definitely be asked if the results wary by a large amount. Perhaps Oor Ruthie can telll us in advance what postal ballot will be?

ahundredthidiot

Thanks DD, but sucking eggs for me

I am tempted to get some buses organised, fill em up with yessers, drive doon to engerland and campaign for a Brexit!!

Call it payback

SNP X 2 in may, yes to stay in Europe (even though I am not personally convinced after greece) and if you live in England vote OUT…….and Jim Sillars……you can suck ma boz

Apologies……….but he’s a fud

ross

OT Sorry…but this is important!

Hello everyone! Im looking for some help.

If you have a smart phone and use the app Whatsapp then have a look at the Emoticons in the flags section. Youll find a Union Jack aaaannndd a St georges flag but no other home nations are represented. I have sent a couple of emails to their ‘contact us address’ asking why and received a couple of feeble responses.

If we all get behind this and complain en masse we can get them to add them or at least remove the St Georges one as a sign of respect to the millions of customers they have in the rest of the country.

I love using whatsapp and would love to be able to use the Saltire in my messages the same as our English neighbours can. But really its just annoying that Scotland isnt seen as good enough to have an Emoticon flag but England is and that just gets on my t**s.

Come on Wingers!!! Lets get this sorted. Complain complain complain

yesindyref2

OT
For any who think the SNP is soft on the media, try watching Sturgeon’s twitter thingy. The current unscrambking of Kenny Farquarson isn;t the first time:

link to twitter.com^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

galamcennalath

Predict.

BBC Shortbread will spend more time during Scotch programming on the EU Ref than they will on the Holyrood election.

G. Campbell

GEORGE GALLOWAY: BRITAIN IS TOO WEE TO STAND ALONE

Scotland, Farage and Me
by George Galloway MP
May 19, 2013

The imbroglio involving Nigel Farage and a hate-filled mob on the streets of Edinburgh was a pure dead embarrassment to Scotland. Any sensible person can see that. It could have been so described by First Minister Alex Salmond if he was in any way prime ministerial, but it was not.

For me Farage is a Right-wing populist Europhobe – the antithesis of everything I stand for. But he is not a racist, still less a fascist, and has every right to speak anywhere in the United Kingdom – so long as it exists.

Salmond sank to the occasion, showing himself less than a national leader, more as a faction fighter at the head of a motley crew. If the virtual social media spoke for Scotland this game would already be a bogey. Cybernats bestride the internet in an increasingly poisonous parade of flag-waving and militancy which makes me wonder what happened to the Scotland I left just eight years ago.

In that they are the mirror image of the Faragists who think getting all red-faced going down to the channel ports and shouting boo at Johnny Foreigner can somehow solve our problems, which are not, as it happens, the fault of the English, the immigrants, the gays or the Europeans.

Independent, Scots would continue to be at the mercy of the waves of international vicissitude. The only difference would be that they had gotten out of an ocean-going liner and climbed into a Para-Handy puffer – with no life boats. The same is true of course of Farage’s fantasy of bulldog Britain. In that sense those waving their flags at each other in Edinburgh last week were bald men fighting over a comb and hair gel.

If Britain cannot face this storm alone, how much less can an independent Scotland?

link to redmolucca.net
———————————————–
January 6, 2015

For me states have outlived their usefulness and are rendered increasingly meaningless in the globalised capitalist world in which we live. I believe in the increasing unity of states and believe that individual states will “wither away”.

The unity of the Arab states, the African states, the Latin American states and of course the European states.

redmolucca.net/2015/01/06/trouble-is-with-galloway-is-he-prefers-foreigners-to-his-own-sic/

Andy.D

Well all, good article but I aint voting to stay in this dog house its vote leave for me. Ok so lets vote to stay in let England take us out really…. grow up vote how you feel, Indy will come one way or the other I will not vote that does not go with my gut. VOTE LEAVE be brave Scotland.

T222Deracha

The Final vote will be UK wide, I have a feeling the regional results will not be available, as they will be bound to upset someone regardless of the outcome. 🙂

Nana

O/T

Warning, you will need a strong stomach. A right pompous twerp of a Lord has called the snp A North Korean drill squad. Oh and Darling is one of the lordy twerps.

link to parliamentlive.tv

mike cassidy

Completely OT – but I feel I should do a Nana and provide a link

in this case to how you can never underestimate how devious big business can be – especially with the shale debate currently in abeyance.

link to reuters.com

heedtracker

C4 teatimes news has gone tory England mad. Tory after tory after tory interview by Snow, in or out, total Scotland region blackout, as usual. C4 are UK state broadcasters but clearly and once again, the UK is England and tory only.

Ken500

A UK PM with only half the support of his members

Another GE

Provost Sludden

Before the Union, Scotland looked outwards towards Europe and England defied Europe. Plus ca change.

Balaaargh

Whoa there with the Scottish Widows talk!

A part of the SW business is being spun off along with a bunch of other brands/companies within LBG into the one business unit. SW are actually expanding in Edinburgh having moved in to Orchard Brae. There are dozens of companies and brands within LBG; some are registered in Gresham Street, some are registered at the Mound.

Gary45%

Ross@7.23
The next time you contact them, remind them a SCOT invented the phone if they are still too thick to understand play the race card.
Or simply tell them to stick it.

According to the Great British Medja, Oddjob speaks for the people, is it just me or does Boris sound like a Minion on diazepam.
Blindyblipy, wifflywaffly, bumbly mumbly, which then morphs into Fundily mundily, could Oddjob be FUD in disguise?

Les Wilson