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Wings Over Scotland

The unbreakable lock

Posted on October 21, 2019 by

It’s Monday morning, readers, so welcome once again to the world’s favourite situation comedy, the United Kingdom.

The current position is that absolutely nobody has the slightest idea what’s going to happen this week, or today, or by lunchtime. The Prime Minister is as we speak being taken to court (again), and a whole series of votes in the House Of Commons may or may not take place and may or may not determine anything.

But there’s one particularly interesting thing going on.

There was much talk over the weekend that the DUP – massively disgruntled over Boris Johnson proposing a border in the Irish Sea that he’d previously categorically guaranteed never to support – would switch to backing a second referendum, which would be enough to gain it majority support in Parliament.

The media has since announced that they won’t, but we can find no direct statement from the DUP to that effect. All they’ve actually said is that they don’t WANT a second referendum, which alert students of language may have observed is some distance short of saying they wouldn’t VOTE for one.

So as things stand, a second referendum may well be proposed and voted on in the Commons today. What we know for sure is that it would have no chance whatsoever of succeeding without the votes of the SNP. But the party has been uncharacteristically quiet on the subject, and perhaps for good reason.

Because SNP voters, and Yes supporters in general, would be forgiven for expecting – indeed, demanding – that the party would exact a price for its support at a moment when it held unprecedented leverage over the future of the UK.

It would be manifestly reasonable for it to demand two things: firstly, that any second referendum would require a majority in all four countries of the UK to enact Brexit. There’d be no reason for the opposition parties to object to that – it’s supported by the public UK-wide, and of course it would make Brexit effectively impossible, which is what they want.

But the second demand is at least outwardly more problematic: that the opposition parties must pledge support for a second Scottish independence referendum. Yet it’s clearly a fair condition. If a re-run for Remainers is legitimate, without any sort of democratic mandate, then plainly it is absurd to deny Yes voters one that they DO have a (multiple) democratic mandate for, especially in such a starkly obvious context.

And again, this is a position backed by the public. There would be little to no political cost to Labour or the Lib Dems, because their own voters aren’t that bothered whether Scotland gets a second referendum or not (or indeed whether it leaves the UK).

They WOULD, however, almost certainly be furious with their parties if they rejected a chance to definitively stop Brexit for the sake of denying democracy to Scotland.

That fury, we suspect, would be very vividly mirrored among SNP voters if the party enabled a second EU referendum – which we already know would substantially harm the cause of independence – without even extracting any concessions in return.

Our guess is that they’re currently praying there’s no vote on it in the Commons this week. Because if there is, and they vote for it unconditionally, there’ll be hell to pay.

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    664 to “The unbreakable lock”

    1. Clapper57 says:

      @ Mike Cassidy @ 2.21pm

      Hi Mike …cheers…read the article and copied this from it :

      “So we didn’t vote for the amendment.We didn’t vote against it either. We abstained. However, ‘WE HAVE GOOD FORM ON THE NHS’ and trade deals. For a start, we have on very many occasions challenged the government on exactly this point”

      The above tends to contradict what Dadsarmy highighted in his comment against the Lib Dems at 2.11pm…..see they are masters at airbrushing their involvement in their coalition with the Tories are they not……rogues and chancers.Me thinks they doth protest too much…..pity they doth protest too much about the WRONG things….meanwhile they doth NOT protest at the unfair and disadvantaged position Scotland finds itself in…why? …because they want all to see they are a UKOK Union uber alles party and tis but only on behalf of the UKOK that they will protest……as dadsarmy states they are indeed LIARS.

    2. mike cassidy says:

      So there is a simple solution to the gra problem.

    3. Clapper57 says:

      @ Capella @ 2.52pm

      Thanks Capella, yep I have seen this before and also heard the Tories on QT and elsewhere justify and present this as a logical strategy and try to present the ‘private’ companies involvement as a ‘partnership’ that enhances the services for patients using the NHS……however that is NOT the motive/strategy/outcome for Trump’s expected trade deal on NHS….ask an american what their health service is like and the cost to use….eyes opened for sure.

      @ SilverDarling @ 2.38pm

      Hi SilverDarling….indeed the soft No’s need to open their eyes and use their peripheral vision…waiting at the side of the stage…. after Ruth’s stage exit… is Miss Jo Swinson who like her predecessor will always but always put the Union before the needs of Scotland…..will be like the second coming …a new Queen of the Union is crowned….new boss same as the old boss.

    4. shug says:

      If you have seen the Skye Bridge programme where it appears Forsyth and Hamilton were involved in changing a civil matter to a criminal matter, forcing people to travel to Dingwall rather than Portee, and one has to wonder what they knew about the falsified documents presented to the court – oh and the little matter of 98 million of public money.
      I wonder what connections that have with the Bank of America?
      If you consider that behavior one has to wonder whet we might expect from Westminster of indyref2
      You know the corruption and law breaking is real with Call Kaye and the BBC do NOT report it

    5. manandboy says:

      THE TORY GOVERNMENT’S USE OF CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA in UK elections and referendums since, and including the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum, REMAINS A CLOSELY GUARDED SECRET. But the Americans are looking into it. And how.

      Potentially, it is a political nuclear bomb.

      It is believed by some that Cambridge Analytica was so toxic to the Tories, that the Skripal poisoning was created in order to divert and then consume public attention, away from Cambridge Analytica’s relationship with the Conservative government.

      “Be still my beating heart..@aoc asks Zuckerberg the question. I & others (notably @jason_kint) have been asking for a loooong time. When exactly did he first learn about Cambridge Analytica? Tell me, does this sound like a convincing answer to you?”

    6. Cubby says:

      Reporting Scotland this lunchtime

      Health correspondent Lisa Summers – ” The NHS is in a critical condition most key targets missed, staff under immense pressure, services struggling to cope. Today’s annual health check says that without widespread reform it will simply not be sustainable and that says the Auditor General means shifting the emphasis of care from stretched hospitals in to the community. Integrating health and social care.”

      More anti Scotgov propaganda. Summers makes her own personal comment at the beginning and then leads straight in to the Auditor General report – conflating the two. Giving the impression the Auditor General is saying her words.

      ” It will simply not be sustainable” says the report but why would you want to sustain a service that is struggling to cope. The jumbled up words of propagandists.

      After independence all these broadcasters need to cleared out. Pumping out propaganda on behalf of another country. No excuses.

      So you have STV saying the Scotgov is spending way too much money on the health service and BBC saying it is a shambles. Neither organisation ever mentions how bad it is in the rest of the UK or how good it would be if we actually had 100% of our revenues to spend rather than the less than 50% the Scotgov actually has.

    7. mr thms says:

      If Northern Ireland, an equal part of the UK can have a ‘special arrangement’ for four years after Brexit, as well as a vote on whether to continue with the arrangement or drop it, is this not a sign that if the will is there Scotland can negotiate its own deal with the EU just like autonomous regions of Denmark (for example)?

    8. kapelmeister says:

      So Karie Murphy, a Scot, and Corbyn’s chief of staff, thinks that Orkney is an “obscure place” in “the middle of nowhere” and that Jeremy can get the train straight to it.

      There’s really no need to comment.

    9. kapelmeister says:

      Don’t you know we’re riding on the Pentland Firth Express
      Don’t you know we’re riding on the Pentland Firth Express
      They’re taking me to Stromness
      All aboard that train
      All aboard that train

      Corbyn, Stills, Nash & Young

    10. Dan says:


      What the KLF is going on. I thought we were on the last train to Transcentral…

    11. Breeks says:

      kapelmeister says:
      24 October, 2019 at 4:46 pm
      So Karie Murphy, a Scot, and Corbyn’s chief of staff, thinks that Orkney is an “obscure place”…

      In fairness, that’s Carmichael territory, so something’s probably not quite right… and I don’t mean the strange way they wear their earphones on their face…

    12. SilverDarling says:


      Or are we all bound for Mu-Mu Land…?

    13. kapelmeister says:

      There’s a Willie Rennie Mackintosh exhibition on in Kirkwall that Jezza wants to see.

    14. Dan says:

      Conspiracy theory – They are trying to kill off the Jocks.

      Whilst perusing the CO OP for something to munch that isn’t plastered in Union Jackassery I find a deal for two pizzas and a tub of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream sans butcher’s apron for a fiver.

      I’m barely an inch into the Karamel Sutra ice cream and think I need an insulin iv line…

    15. Republicofscotland says:

      Boris Johnson wants a GE on December 12, will he get it?

    16. Bob Mack says:

      Reece Mogg trying to thank the SNP for keeping the Tories in power.

      Its one of these heads you win ,tails we still win scenarios.

    17. Col.Blimp IV says:


      It’s grim up North

    18. kapelmeister says:

      December 12th election? That would mean all over Scotland on the same day there would be Xmas lights being switched on and the lights going out for Scots Tory MPs.

    19. Capella says:

      The HoC voted down the SNP amendment to retain Freedom of Movement with the EU. One by one, Westminster removes every plank sustaining the Union.

    20. McDuff says:

      Mr Thm
      Thanks for the link.
      It really makes me sick how the MSM is jumping on this report which is purely designed to undermine the the SG.
      Nicola sturgeon needs agressively rebuff this bilge.

    21. Colin Alexander says:

      Call me naive if you like but, in my world, an independence party should stand for independence at a General Election.

      If a party believes in independence they should stand for independence and keep attempting to persuade people as many times as it takes to achieve that goal.

      If a political party puts all their founding principles in the bin chasing power at Westminster or Holyrood, what do they become?

      Similar to Tony Blair’s Labour or the LibDems.

    22. defo says:

      Nah. More like spurned wife.

    23. manandboy says:


      Britain’s despicable history of slavery needs teaching and commemorating.

      This is my own favourite :-

      “There was much in Afua Hirsch’s article that I did not agree with; not least the headline suggestion that “Britain was built on the backs of slaves”. That would come as a surprise to the descendants of the millions of working-class people who lived short, unhealthy lives of unremitting toil during the industrial revolution; or the descendants of the millions of Irish and Scots forced to flee their land by poverty and unjust structures of property ownership, mostly in the century after the abolition of the slave trade.

      That is not to say that the circumstances are the same: there is something qualitatively more awful about slavery than “free” gross exploitation, but it does suggest that the arguments need to be nuanced, if they are not just going to attract toxic reactions.

      Where I do agree is that black history needs to be mainstreamed and not just confined to one month a year. It would then allow the exploration of arguments around structural conditions, the relative contribution of slavery to Britain’s economy, and the full details of the anti-slavery movement – lasting over a century, from the first stirrings of conscience in the 1770s, to the conclusion of the Royal Navy’s anti-slaving patrols in the 1870s.

      That is a very full story, one well worth studying, and one that would make a truly fitting memorial, if every British child knew it.
      Simon Diggins
      Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire

    24. Sinky says:

      BBC Scotland TV news fails to mention that SNP motion for EU withdrawal agreement subject to consent from Scots Party and Welsh Assembly was defeated and Labour and Lib Dems abstained.

      What other national broadcaster would cover up the lack of respect for their own parliament.

      BBC Scotland still views everything through London Hq agenda

    25. Bob Mack says:


      You might be interested in the 1777 case in Scottsh court of Session .Knight v Wedderburn

      Scots abolished slavery in Scotland some 50 years before the rest of the UK.

      We did participate certainly but saw the light much earlier.

    26. manandboy says:

      I’ll make no bones about it, but I am rather despondent, and not only today.

      Brexit has brought out the worst in many people. So far, this has overshadowed the best in others.

      Wings too has been overshadowed.

      A bright new day seems like a long way off.

      The battle seems to have a long way to go.

      I long for Scotland’s independence and a return to normality, after more than three hundred years of abnormal rule by Westminster, including my own lifetime of barely conscious colonial-like control of Scotland, but now in a state of very high awareness since the campaign for Indy14 begun in 2012.

      The forecast from Westminster for Scotland is bleak.

      Independence is our only hope.

      The problem with that is, that Scotland is England’s only hope as well.

    27. Al-Stuart says:

      A 12th December 2019 general election is being demanded by Boris.

      Odds are that he will be DENIED a general election by Westminster Parliament because Labour are in such an unelectable mess.

      Yet our SNP are keen for a general election as we know there will be an increase in SNP MPs.

      But what on earth use is increasing our 35 to 56 OPPOSITION SNP MPs?

      We have been here time and time again. Yes it makes good television to see he bottom right hand quarter of the BBC Parliament channel tv screen stuffed full of Scottish MPs.

      But where does this get us? More disrespect, more braying from English Tories. Every SNP amendment voted down.

      Aye right.

      Enough is enough.

      The 35 SNP MPs are on course to meekly prop up the Labour resistance and decline the English Tories their parliamentary general election.

      The whole boorach is not good enough

      I understand we have until 6th November 2019 for the SNP to get its finger out and make a deal FOR Scotland.

      The SNP have a short opportunity to get a SIGNED AND IRREVOCABLE STATUTORY INSTRUMENT AND/OR ACT OF PARLIAMENT PERMANENTLY transferring the Section 30 Order protocol to Holyrood.

      Ian Blackstock, PLEASE study what Stuart Campbell has written on this website. His thesis is valid.

      Ian, if you secure a permanent transfer of the Section 30 Order to Holyrood, our 35 SNP votes can be exchanged for that law change and give Boris the general election that he covets.

      He will give you that Section 30 Order.

      Then Holyrood can CHOOSE to have IndyRef2 whenever it suits us.

      If Ian Blackford persists on his mission to SAVE ENGLAND FROM BREXIT, whilst IGNORING Scotland’s need for IndyRef2, then it might not be Stuart Campbell getting a nudge to stand in Perth and Northern Pershire to “persuade” Pete Wishart to take the WoS dissertation to Nicola Sturgeon for a fair hearing.

      If Pete + Ian + Nicola fail to take heed, there are others now wishing to stand.

      The purpose of standing at Perth is to get the attention of the SNP high Head yins. The ones that are IGNORING the rest of us.

      Bu66er the mantra: “Get Brexit done”.

      It is about time to get: “Get IndyRef2 done”.

    28. Ron Maclean says:

      Articles by Andrew Wilson ‘Is the media now part of the no 10 spin machine?’ in today’s ‘National’ and Peter Oborne ‘British journalists have become part of Johnson’s fake news machine’ in (22 October 2019) make interesting reading.

      At the risk of being accused of Britnattery could I suggest that continuing inaction by the SNP leadership on the media front is unlikely to improve matters.

    29. Clapper57 says:

      Reporting Scotland reporting on Ruth Davidson’s ‘New lucrative still have time for the family’ adviser job for PR company…

      Out on the streets of Edinburgh one voter, either Tory voter or too laid back for his own good , said :

      “Well she is about to stand down so she is entitled to get a new job”

      ABOUT to STAND DOWN….so ‘about’….this week ? next week ?…next month?…oh no May 2021….next Holyrood elections.

      So he was kinda stretching the use of the words ‘about to’ and ‘stand down’ in the sense that she is not …imminently…about …to…stand…down…but indeed expects to remain in her MSP job for at least another year and seven months…wow..that’s some spinning that Edinburgh voter just engineered.

      Conflict of interest you say…no problem…as she is just…what possible harm can she do in one year and several months…..hmm…..

      And yet…..look what she managed to con voters in Scotland to vote for in the 2017 GE….and that was in weeks….just as they have done jack shit for Scotland at WM so will she do in her NEW job where her true allegiance will…to say..the least…be questionable….her future uber alles…career and money a winning combination to replace faux principles and morals..the Tory way.

      Right funny isn’t it…Ruth ‘Get on with the day job’ Davidson..doing the very thing she tried and failed to accuse her opponents of…..obviously she IS doing her day job…looking after numero Uno…where as in relation to Scots…not so much…unless a company under the umbrella of the new PR company to which she is employed with…are Scottish…as long as they are of a Unionist inclination obvs….

      See all of those tangled webs weaved by the Unionists….makes one’s head spin at the sheer audacity they never fail to display…..and all to deceive…twas ever thus etc etc

    30. manandboy says:

      Bob Mack, “Scots abolished slavery in Scotland some 50 years before the rest of the UK.”
      You have fair lifted my spirits, Bob. Thank you.

    31. Al-Stuart says:

      Here is the Westminster General Election demand AND Labour stating what they want as a condition for them to agree with the Tories…

      But what about Scotland?

      Surely it is time for us to offer our 35 SNP votes to support a 12 December 2019 UK general election on the basis that…


      53.4% of England voted FOR Brexit…

      Let England leave the EU.

      A major chunk of the Brexit supporting 15,188,406 Englishmen and women are already using the hastag…


      So it matters not a jot to them that 35 Scottish MPs vote to support a 12th December 2019 general election on the basis that it is HOLYROOD THAT DECIDES THE SECTION 30 PROTOCOL TIMING.

      For Heavens sake will someone have a word with Nicola and Ian Blackford.

      Stuart Campbell wrote a bl00dy article on this….

      When will the SNP at Westminster and Holyrood get a grip and DEMAND we are given the Section 30 powers to HOLD OUR INDYREF2 AT A TIME OF OUR CHOOSING?

    32. Sinky says:

      I know several wingers are suspicious of postal voting but they are wrong.

      Even if Ge is not on December 12, the odds are it could be in January or February therefore it is essential that Every SNP / Indy supporter registers for a Postal Vote ASAP which will leave more time for getting the SNP vote out

    33. ahundredthidiot says:

      Ron Maclean

      No accusations of britnattery from me, the inaction of the SNP on the media flabbers my gast on a daily basis. My Party need to go full El Trumpo on the media.

      They are 99% conniving, lying, slimy bastards.

      And the Brits are the worst of all of them – even worse than the yanks.

    34. TheBuchanLoony says:

      Manandboy…talking of lifting spirits…who needs oil at $60 a barrel when a BOTTLE of 1926 Macallan has just sold for one and a half MILLION pounds!

    35. ahundredthidiot says:

      re a GE

      Of course, I would like to imagine returning 59 x SNP politicians to Westminster – then I remember myself – what would be the point?

    36. ScotsRenewables says:

      Al-Stuart says:
      24 October, 2019 at 7:30 pm

      When will the SNP at Westminster and Holyrood get a grip and DEMAND we are given the Section 30 powers to HOLD OUR INDYREF2 AT A TIME OF OUR CHOOSING?

      Before Christmas. Stop getting your knickers in a twist.

    37. ahundredthidiot says:


      Note you didn’t say this Xmas.

    38. Clapper57 says:

      If anyone was in any doubt Labour do NOT want to win the next GE..then I can assure you that is the case by the very fact tricky Dicky, the habitual serial bouncer whose head cannot compute the difference between devolved and reserved…and he’s doing it deliberately too, is on BBC QT tonight which is in South Shields…..

      Not sure what formula is for guests…does the company who the BBC outsources this programme to invite specific peeps…do the respective political parties indicate availability of their politicians….if the latter then my assumption above is correct…if the former then the BBC obvs rooting for the Tories.

      Noted Lordy Lordy Lamont yon ‘has been’ of Thatcher cabinet and uber Brexiteer is also on….he’ll go down a storm tonight as this is a Leave area….stormin Norman will have them cheering in the aisles….WTO ya bass….when the bowt (boat) comes in ..howay man….calm doon al mek a cuppa….this regional accent will stir Lordy Lordy Lamont’s loins…the canny lad….he should gan doon a storm….if it wasn’t for those pesky ‘Remoaners’………..Lol

      Oh and one of the ‘in the constant invite loop’ idiots in the form of Kate Andrews is also one…she will be whining away the same old same old….who funds her….where did she come from…and why is she always on telly….I say telly but recently feel more a platform for introducing idiots to convince other idiots to think idiotic things in relation to politics…good work if you can get it…apply now…the BBC will definitely consider you if you are inclined to be like Kate and the other idiots in the loop of ‘chosen ones’.

      Howay the Radgies….howay man….

    39. Mist001 says:

      Better for the SNP to have a GE before the start of the Alex Salmond trial, I think.

      On another note, today has been a ‘same shit, different day’ day again. I’m beginning to seriously wonder if the UK is being subject to some kind of sociological/psy ops experiment, to see how much shit people will take until they either crack up, give up, or revolt.

      What we’re collectively experiencing just now cannot be right.

    40. Dan says:

      …wakes up from self induced sugar coma…

      Is it over yet? Surely the quota for use of the terminologically incorrect makey up word “Brexit” during the 3rd millennium has been reached by now.

      Why do politicians and legal folk even use that fuckin word when it is an inaccurate descriptor.
      The UK is the member state of the EU. HTH

    41. defo says:

      I might have missed your reply, but again, why do you think Ecks stitch up trial will have any tangible voter effect?

    42. Mist001 says:

      @ defo

      Once the trial starts, mud will start to be thrown and a lot of that will stick in the voters minds who may well be less inclined to vote for any SNP candidate.

      If the GE is held before the trial, then the SNP candidates will already have been returned and will be safely ensconced in Westminster.

      Makes sense to me but then again, I’m not Sturgeon or leadership of the SNP in which case, they’ll do the opposite.

      BTW, when I said ‘safely ensconced in Westminster’ I was trying to convey withering sarcasm.

    43. defo says:

      Ta for the reply mist
      I’m less inclined to think the mud will stick, especially with the fact that Sturgeon has had the reigns for a long time now.

      I’m never slow to point out the stupidity, be it willful or otherwise of the herd, but I think that we are generally far more politically savvy as a people post 2014.

      Eck doesn’t = Indy

      I really doubt many will go Yes to No, or SNP to another party over something we both know is utterly irrelevant to the issue’s.

      GRA, on the other hand could, and sadly probably will be effectively weaponised.

    44. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi ahundredthidiot at 7:44 pm.

      You typed,

      “re a GE

      Of course, I would like to imagine returning 59 x SNP politicians to Westminster – then I remember myself – what would be the point?”

      I would guess that if the SNP returned 59 MPs, then their share of the vote would be greater than 50%. All it needs is a certain few words in their GE manifesto to make us all happy.

    45. Effijy says:

      I recall PM May publicly stating 86 times that they will leave the EU
      On 31st March- Lie x 86.

      I believe Bojo the Clown must be close to matching this number over
      The last few weeks and now we know his 31st October guaranteed date
      Is also a dead duck, who on earth other than the English Supremest’s
      Would ever believe a word they say?

      Billions for the DUP, NHS, Education, HS2, Hinckley Point.
      Workers Rights safe in their hands
      NHS Safe in their hands
      Britain will be great again. lol

    46. Cubby says:


      If even BDTT can see that post was pretty idiotic then I guess you must be an idiot right enough.

    47. Colin Alexander says:

      SNP Manifesto General Election 2019 (what it should say):

      We will pledge to support a Labour Govt.

      So we will make it even more likely England will elect another UK Conservative Govt.

      We believe in independence for Scotland, like we believe in Santa Claus.

      But you have more chance of Santa delivering your xmas pressies doon your lum, than the SNP delivering an indyref in the next two years.

      Once elected we pledge to winge, girn and greet about how evil the UK Tory Govt is and Tweet our disgust about how cruelly they treat the poor and shite on Scotland on a daily basis.

      Erm, that’s about it. There’s very little else we can do, as just 59 MPs maximum out of 650 British MPs.

      Oh, maybe we should mention: We will take an oath of allegiance to Sovereign Purring Betty the Head of the British Empire and enemy of Scottish independence and sovereign of the Kingdom of England; we won’t take an oath to the people of Scotland (who we claim are sovereign).

      We do this, so the SNP get money from the British Empire. Business is business.

      See here for further details on how we are bought and sold for British Empire gold:

      We need the British gold even more since our membership income has dropped from £2,586,914.00 in 2016 to £2,246,070.00 in 2018, a drop of £341,000, as members became disillusioned by our primary policy of: “save the British Empire” and its Scotland colony from Brexit.

    48. manandboy says:

      Reality – in Boris Johnson’s Britain:-

      “There was a time when prime ministers took their responsibilities seriously. When an appearance before the liaison committee – the supergroup of chairs of all select committees – was an ordeal set in stone. No prime minister enjoyed being asked difficult questions to which they often had to evade the answer, but the session was understood to be part of the job.

      Boris Johnson sees things rather differently. He knows he can’t survive 15 minutes of forensic questioning, let alone a full two hours, so with barely 12 hours’ notice he cancelled his Thursday morning date with the liaison committee. For the third time. Rather than a formal apology or explanation, he merely scribbled a quick note to Sarah Wollaston, the committee chair, on a crumpled sheet of paper.

      “Soz I can’t be there,” he wrote. “It’s been a busy week and I could do without the hassle. I rather fancy taking Dilyn for a walk instead. Maybe I’ll come and see you in five or six months if I can be arsed. And either of us are a still in a job. Ring my people to fix a date that I can later miss. Yours, whateva.” Classic Dom high-fived him – what was the point of regaining UK sovereignty only to waste it on democratic processes? – before pissing in the waste paper basket. Toilets were for wimps.”

    49. mike cassidy says:

      I never watch ‘gammon time’. But it would be interesting to know who the wonderful Ken Loach dislikes more. Richard Leonard or extreme rightwinger Katie Andrews

    50. Bob Mack says:

      I had a dose of reality today folks. My old neigbour is grave!y ill in hospital and doesnt look like he will last the night.

      He is stauch Unionist to the core as I am Independence minded.

      We both know how tbe other feels.

      He has ha Xmas dinner every year and other celebrations in my home. He is and was despite our differences my friend.

      We seem to be separated by a great distance in some ways ,but overcame them to keep our friendship alive.

      Perhaps there is a lesson for us all in that .We have more that binds than separates.

      With that in mind I offer my apologies to anyone I have offended on here. It wasnt necessary at all.

      Live and let live has regained its meaning in my life after all.

    51. Iain mhor says:

      Ach people are just in the post war mentality – don’t give a shit, just get by until the next GE and bin the great war leader. That of course may turn out to be all of them.
      What odds a Lib-Dem Government or some similar left field Scottish Indy party.
      Well, lets see, investments – hmm Michelle Mones Equi bitcoin (website ‘under construction) or Ladbrokes and a political side bet – Meh… A monkey on snow on xmas day. That’ll do.
      Wake me for the revolution, as ever.

    52. Meindevon says:

      Well we had local Devon County Council by elections today.

      Even more depressing than the usual Labour, Cons, Lib Dems and Greens (the best of a bad bunch for me) on the ballot paper was the inclusion of the For Britain Party. Never heard of them before and a leaflet didn’t say too much but google told me it seems to be a far right, anti Islam, ukip breakaway party.

      Hoping down here in sleepy Devon they get little to no votes. But who knows any more. We’ll see tomorrow I guess.

    53. HandandShrimp says:

      Watching Gammon Time, who on earth is Katie Andrews? Also time catches up with us all…Lamont is very white of eyebrow and less right wing than Katie by some margin.

    54. scunner says:

      @Mike Cassidy

      Our dislike of Leonard clouds the fact that he’s doing fairly well on QT when compared to that deluded Brexit-fantasist airhead lassie.

      So far she’s described Brexit as offering fantastic opportunity, pretty much said “cool story Bro” to Ken Loach and just bigged up Zero Hours contracts as something amazing.

      Where the hell is she from and why is she on the panel (yet again)?

    55. Gary45% says:

      Bob Mack@10.48
      Sorry to hear about your neighbour, for me you don’t have to apologise to anyone, we have all made comments at times that we maybe regret later, but the way the world is at the moment, ordinary citizens have the least to apologise for. If your neighbour passes tonight at least he will be at peace.
      Once again sorry for your loss.

    56. Liz g says:

      Bob Mack @ 10.48
      Sorry to hear your loosening your friend and what Gary 45% said. xxx

    57. mike cassidy says:

      Kate Andrews is one of those extreme rightwingers with whom the BBC likes to collaborate.

      Though this was a low even by BBC standards.

    58. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Anyone else received this email?

      “George Square Saturday 2nd November, 13.30-15.30.
      Indyref 2020: The National’s Rally for Independence
      Join Nicola Sturgeon to demand #indyref2020 as she speaks at an independence rally for the first time since becoming First Minister of Scotland!
      The National newspaper is proud to host the major independence rally in Scotland’s largest city.
      Our event is free and family-friendly.

    59. scunner says:

      Thanks Mike, so she’s just a truly awful person.

      Noted QT in Glasgow on the 7th. A certain silly Billy will be dusting down an orange jacket in preparation.

      I’d put money on an audience 52% Brexiteer, 60%+ Unionist and a biased panel containing the least eloquent SNP politico they can find.

    60. mike cassidy says:

      Brian Doonthetoon

      Demand from whom?

    61. mike cassidy says:

      The unionjacket man survives deselection.

    62. Joe says:

      Hi Bob.

      Sorry to hear about your friend. Its worthwhile for us all to remember that despite sometimes massive differences in opinion and methods 99.99% of us really wish for others to be well and happy.

    63. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi mike cassidy at 11:50 pm.

      You typed,
      “Demand from whom?”

      Mmmmm… I think I already typed the answer to you question.

      Join Nicola Sturgeon to demand #indyref2020 as she speaks at an independence rally for the first time since becoming First Minister of Scotland!

    64. Capella says:

      Katie Andrews is from the right wing Institute of Economic Affairs, funded by the tobacco industry and keen to sell out the NHS. Naturally fits right on QT.

    65. Capella says:

      @ Bob Mack – it’s sad to lose someone close who has been a big presence in your life. We all have different paths. Wishing you peace and good memories of your friend.

    66. mike cassidy says:


      I get she’s going to demand it at the rally

      But from whom is she going to demand it?

      A UK government that doesn’t give a feck if she strips naked and does a Lady Godiva through George Square on the back of a Shetland pony?

    67. Clapper57 says:

      @ Bob Mack @ 10.48pm

      Hi Bob….how sad.

      It is a credit to your character that you recognise that different opinions do not automatically make other people your enemy but instead open up other ways to form a friendship that survived irrespective of what political differences existed between you both.

      Take care….

    68. dadsarmy says:

      As Capella says I think Katie Andrews is from the IEA, and it rang a bell so I checked it out, and its Director General is Mark Littlewood who caused a storm in 2017:


      “I support Scottish independence. I assume John Swinney does too! =2/5”

      All weird stuff.

    69. Megmerrilees says:

      Bob Mack
      So sorry to hear about your neighbour and the reality check life has just thrown your way.
      We truly do not know what the future holds- maybe just as well.
      My granny used to say never let the sun set on your anger and always be the first to apologise.

      Sometimes we get side tracked and lose sight of the important things in life but it sounds like you were a good neighbour so don’t beat yourself up.
      Hold your loved ones closer and show your gratitude to people as everyone has ‘stuff’ in their lives.

      How does the saying go… to everything there is a season, a time to live and a time to die…
      Sleep well, Bob.

    70. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Bob Mack

      All the best.

    71. call me dave says:

      A Time for Everything

      1 There is a time for everything,
      and a season for every activity under the heavens:

      2 a time to be born and a time to die,
      a time to plant and a time to uproot,
      3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
      a time to tear down and a time to build,
      4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
      a time to mourn and a time to dance,
      5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
      a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
      6 a time to search and a time to give up,
      a time to keep and a time to throw away,
      7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
      a time to be silent and a time to speak,
      8 a time to love and a time to hate,
      a time for war and a time for peace.

    72. Liz g says:

      Just seen Newsnight….
      It’s like de ja fucking vue.
      Out of nowhere they not only decide to ask the EU representative the what if Scotland became Independent question,she painted out the route to it!
      And hey presto
      Spanish vetos back and it has added bells and whistles of what a terribly long time these negotiations would take, if Scotland were to BECOME a new Sovereign Country.

      I hope Nicola and everyone else make it clear that EFTA is an immediate option and still better than this accursed Union,if the EU doesn’t speak out this time!

      I’ll make my own prediction…. That tame EU guy is going to get a lot of air time

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 05:30,

      As long as the UK remains in the EU and as long as there remains even the faint hope of an EURef2, the BBC will always be able to find some random ersatz mini-Barrosso who will be happy to explain all the imagined difficulties. (Just like it does with ordinary vox-pops about anything else.) But as Juncker himself made clear, once that situation changes, all deference to the UK as member vanishes, and then it’s a whole new ballgame (as the Yanks say). And new Commission President von der Leyen is, if anything, even more aware of the Scottish dimension, I think.

      Personally I don’t like any mention of EFTA etc. at the moment because it blunts the indy message with that crucial segment of Remain voters, and thereby offers an avoidable opening for the (ultimately-futile) FibDems, but this is realpolitik, and we may be a small country when independent, but if, in the inevitable negotiations for membership, the EU expects us to simply cave in regardless as the UK did on our behalf, then EFTA will no doubt suit us well enough instead. And the EU know it. But that’s a battle for another day. In the meantime, we have to endure (and even better, counter) these predictable media red herrings.

      Anything and everything to demotivate people from clearly seeing the indy escape route from this damned UK.

      And our main task, all of us, is to do precisely the contrary, to shine a bright light on that way out.

    74. dadsarmy says:

      @Liz g
      That tame EU guy was Martin Schulz I think, who was President of the European Parliament until 2017, stood against Merkel I think, and disappeared into obscurity, never to be seen again until Newsnight.

    75. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 6.13
      I was looking at the EFTA thing as a fail safe to present to voter’s as clearly we’re going to be threatened with being out of “both” Unions.
      I personally don’t believe a word of it Robert J,I just think that other’s might and I also think that we could use that it’s not an option for us if we stay in the UK as they won’t let England too.
      And if they were right about the EU or if the EU were at it over membership and pushed their luck with our Treaty, then it is and should be an option!

    76. Liz g says:

      Dadsarmy @ 6.18
      Thanks for that…. I couldn’t remember who they said he was as I wasn’t expecting Scotland or Indy to come up at all.
      It seemed a bit random as they usually take every chance to pretend we don’t exist.
      Wonder what his quid pro quo is?

    77. Robert Louis says:

      Good news to hear that the FM will be speaking at a rally for independence in Glasgow, on 2nd November, in George Square, Glasgow.

      I note that some folk aren’t too happy about it, but really can’t see why. I too have long complained that the FM was not speaking at the indy marches, but LOOK! now she is.

      I welcome the news as an indicator of altered direction within the SNP leadership.

      I Will be going. Maybe the SNP leadership have finally grasped the fact that indy supporters are now exceptionally fed up with the delays in calling a referendum? I live in hope. She has promised to ask for a section 30 before year end, and within a few weeks, so we will see. (Of course I [ersoanlly believe she should call the referendum first, then seek a section 30 agreement, but carry on regardless, whatever the outcome).

      Anyway, it is a step forward.

    78. Robert Louis says:

      Liz G,

      Martin Schulz will just be another jobsworth, trying to secure UK support for a job somewhere in industry or Europe. I am sure he will say exactly what his handlers ask of him. In other words, a stooge.

    79. ahundredthidiot says:

      BDTT @ 9:48

      ‘I would guess that if the SNP returned 59 MPs, then their share of the vote would be greater than 50%. All it needs is a certain few words in their GE manifesto to make us all happy.’

      C’mon BDTT, you know that’s not how FPTP works. 59 MPs do not necessarily equate to more than 50% of the vote and I cannot imagine a form of words that would end the Union.

      Re the cuddly ‘Commy’ on here – instead of school yard insults, why not offer a reason WHY returning 59 SNP MPs to Westminster would make any difference? 56 didn’t – in case you hadn’t notice, we are still stuck in this Union and the future gets bleaker by the day.

      Scottish Independence supporters are even getting all excited at the prospect of a GE – talk about a distraction.

      Only an Indyref2 will cut it. And now NS plan to announce a date before Xmas may well be scuppered as it’s all hands to the London Pump.

    80. starlaw says:

      If an Election is held on 12Dec. then it will be a pensioners election, as most people of Scotland from Berwick to Lerwick will be asked to vote in the dark, and if it happens to be raining or snowing, turnout will be very poor.

    81. John Thomson says:

      Hopefull the young will be motivated more than the old and this will result in a good night for SNP.

    82. dadsarmy says:

      @Robert Louis
      Turns out the rugby final is at 9 so I should be able to make it too. 1.30 start fot the Rally, I’ll be the one with a saltire and YES badge.

    83. Joe says:

      I honestly hate it when ‘Spanish veto’ is brought up as some sort of obstacle to Scottish independence. Having lived in, worked in and paid taxes in the EU for about 10 years i can honestly say – FK the EU. Also Spain is a banana republic just without the bananas, or even the republic. To hell with them. We do not need anybody. Scotland is a wealthy 1st world nation

    84. Footsoldier says:

      BBC have still not opened HYS on Ruth Davidson. What a joke they have become – little wonder they are becoming irrelevant but costing us a fortune.

    85. Breeks says:

      MPs voted by 310 votes to 64 to reject an SNP amendment calling for the will of Holyrood to be respected.

      Why would they? Holyrood isn’t sovereign.

      Scotland’s people are Sovereign. Why not call for their will to be respected?

    86. manandboy says:

      Liar reveals treacherous streak. It’s an old English characteristic, to which many UK voters are either ignorant or indifferent.

      The Guardian reports – “EU set to put Brexit delay on hold after Johnson’s ultimatum
      PM’s threat to pull deal if Corbyn rejects general election leaves Brussels in state of flux”

      “The EU’s plan to offer the UK an extension until 31 January on Friday is expected to be put on hold after Boris Johnson threatened to pull the Brexit deal if Jeremy Corbyn rejects a general election.

      Sources said the dramatic developments in Westminster needed to be fully understood and the choreography in Brussels could change.”

      ” But France’s EU minister, Amélie de Montchalin, told RTL radio that clarity over the next steps in London were needed for decisions to be made in “the next hours and days”.

      She said: “Our position is that simply giving more time – without political change, without ratification, without an election – would be useless … The French position is to give more time if it is justified, if we understand why more time is needed. That could be more time to ratify, because there’s a deal on the table. Or it could be because they say want to hold elections. Then we’ll look at that.

      “But it’s one thing to say we’d like to maybe have elections and another thing to say elections have been organised … Simply giving more time alone leads to getting stuck in a rut. If there’s a clear scenario that will change things, for example a ratification or elections – not just suggested but organised – then we can take decisions.

      “But we ask Britain for facts – we’re not in fictional politics, we need facts to make decisions. Decisions will be taken in the next hours and days in terms of what the UK parliament says and what has really been actioned [in the UK]”.

    87. JPJ2 says:

      There is no mystery about why Schultz was asked about Scottish independence.
      It was simply Kirsty Wark using her “impartial” position on the BBC to pursue her own anti independence stance
      This was the lady whose family used to holiday with that iof Jack McConnell while he was Labour FM.

      The lady has fiord..On Newsnight some time ago she treated Salmond so disgracefully during an interview that even the BBC reprimanded her-and we know how rare and how extreme the abuse must have been for a complaint against the BBC to be upheld by them:-)

      Every opportunity will be taken by the BBC opponents of independence to use their positions to fight independence while denying that the are doing just that.

    88. manandboy says:

      “WE NEED FACTS TO MAKE DECISIONS” – France’s EU minister, Amélie de Montchalin,

      Problem – Tories don’t do facts. Only lies, fiction and fantasy. Add the Johnson dimension of making things up as you go along, and things do get complicated.

      The EU has been learning about Boris Johnson, his character and his style. Now they have to decide how to handle, in David Cameron’s words, a greasy piglet.

      But haven’t we all.

    89. Scozzie says:

      Robert Louis @ 6.40am

      As I understand it, this rally is not being organised by the grassroots yes movement but by the National newspaper. While the National supports independence let’s not forget its sister papers are not independence supporting.
      As I see it, it’s yet another snub from NS to the grassroots movement. Why would she align herself with a rally organised by the print media?

      Anyhoo, I suppose we should be thankful she’s speaking at something other than Pride and People’s Vote marches.

    90. SilverDarling says:

      @Bob Mack

      I’m so sorry about your friend and neighbour.

      We are all just people at the end of the day. Your friendship is more important than any differences you have. It’s easy to dehumanise people when we see them as just one thing and many of us here are all guilty of that.

      Your friendship shows we are more than our views on a single issue and you should be proud of that. Your neighbour has a good friend in you – good friends are hard to come by and even harder to keep.

      Peace and love to you both.

    91. Dorothy Devine says:

      Hackalumpoff, thank you!

    92. Republicofscotland says:

      The FM Nicola Sturgeon to attend a huge rally organised by the National newspaper in George Sq Glasgow on the 2nd of November. There will be a large array of speakers, as Sturgeon sends a message to Johnson that we demand to hold a second indyref.

      Scotland needs you to show Boris we won’t be held back by him, if you can attend please do so.

    93. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Watched small Dick Leonard on QT last night. When becoming upset about how Westminster was ignoring the North East of England, he showed far more passion and anger than he has ever shown inside Holyrood.

      He is an English carpet bagger who last night showed where his loyalties and concerns really lie – south of the Border.

      He is one very good reason why we can never again trust British Labour in Scotland – they don’t care about us.

    94. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi ahundredthidiot at 7:19 am.

      You typed,
      “C’mon BDTT, you know that’s not how FPTP works. 59 MPs do not necessarily equate to more than 50% of the vote and I cannot imagine a form of words that would end the Union.”

      At the 2015 GE, the SNP returned 56 MPs, with 49.97% of the popular vote. I’m guessing winning a further three seats would take them over the 50% line.

      I’m no lawyer but it could be along the lines of,
      “If the SNP achieve a majority of MPs from Scottish constituencies AND achieve a majority of the popular vote (50%+1) in Scotland, then we will take that as a mandate to enter discussions to revoke the Articles Of Union so that Scotland becomes, once again, an independent country.”

    95. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Robert J S
      Liz g

      One thing we all have to bear in mind is that the EU is more or less completely and utterly pi**ed off with the UK and quite literally can’t stand anymore of this chaos.

      I’ve noticed over here a large drop in any sympathy for the position of WM. Dump them, let them go their own way. If they continue playing clever dicks and dream of a new Empire, well f**k them.

      Unfortunately Scotland is also losing out in spite of all the sympathy that folk feel for the plight of the Scots and the reputation of NS.

      Look at the Catalans who despite a more difficult Spanish constituional role, are ready to get battened on the head and march in their millions to get their independence. People notice it.

      The Scots may have a better Right than Catalonia as an “Equal” partner in your Union, if so then get up of your arses and DO something about it. The Scots are probably too “Gentleman” like whereas the WM “Ärsche” (ar*eholes) are rats.

    96. scotspatriot says:

      Big Indi Rally on 2nd Nov, 1.30PM……Freedom Square, Glasgow .
      We need to be there in our Tens of Thousands !
      Don’t ask,Demand Independence !!

    97. Mist001 says:

      Merde. That means my FB feed is going to be full of poorly Photoshopped pictures on November 3rd.

    98. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 10:45,

      It could be done, though in a multi-faceted UKGE it’s a particularly high bar to reach. Though with that statement in the SNP manifesto, it would be very hard indeed for the BritNat parties to diverge into other issues! =grin= Kinda neatly reversing their previous “no to indyref2” schtick, heh, heh.

      It could be most useful as a lever to persuade the UKGov to concede IR2, but unfortunately with an imminent UKGE it’s likely to be the earlier of the two opportunities, and we don’t want to have to wait another five years to deploy later.

      The prime advantage, of course, is that it isn’t subject to any UKGov veto, and can’t be ignored by the opposition. And being a high bar, reaching it would be extremely persuasive.

      I still reckon that a “proper” IR2 is a better bet, though, but I am beginning to warm to this proposition. It could be used as an alternative (and substantive) measure of “preferred option” mandate but if the numbers aren’t good enough it could backfire. And post-hoc, the BritNats would predictably invoke the dead and feckless as “antis”.

    99. winifred mccartney says:

      I don’t think George Sq will be big enough for all those who will wish to attend. Glasgow Green better and then we need to fill it.

    100. Golfnut says:

      @Robert J Sutherland @ Briandoonthetoon.

      I wouldn’t discount the possibility that Bdtt’s suggestion is part of Nicola’s strategy for getting us out of this union. We can surmise what the plan is, probably best described as objectives, end the union, membership of the EU/EFTA, Nationalising strategic assets, binning Trident etc. The strategy employed to achieve those objectives is much harder to get a handle on. The plan can be viewed as static, while the strategy will be much more fluid, milestones reached before the next stage can be activated, alternatives gamed if x isn’t achieved, move on to y. It may well be that being out of the EU for a short period is part of the strategy if it helps to achieve some of the objectives. There is undoubtedly a strategy in play which of necessity is not widely shared, consider the beast they have to overcome. As a point of interest, just how many people where aware that the civil service forward planning for an independent Scotland was already well advanced, or did I pick that up wrongly.

    101. Terry callachan says:

      I will be dressed in black tomorrow

      But I’m happy

      Happy to support the all blacks and wishing that they give England a tanking in the rugby World Cup

    102. Jack Murphy says:

      Sinky said last night at 7:34 pm:

      ” I know several wingers are suspicious of postal voting but they are wrong.

      Even if Ge is not on December 12, the odds are it could be in January or February therefore it is essential that Every SNP / Indy supporter registers for a Postal Vote ASAP which will leave more time for getting the SNP vote out ”

      Some folk are unsure how to even Register to Vote either in Person on Polling Day, or by Post.
      Here’s a useful link to send to any friends,neighbours or relatives.

      For anyone still unsure—– ‘phone your local Electoral Registration Office—–it’s simpler than it looks. [smile]

    103. Liz g says:

      Jack Murphy @ 2.33
      Eh…. Ye can’t register to vote on polling day Jack..
      There’s a cut off day before polling by which time you need to register !

    104. Bobp says:

      Terry callachan 1.04pm. Ditto.??

    105. Bobp says:

      ??. Should have been smiley faces.

    106. Ahundredthidiot says:

      re rugby……noooo, we want England to beat NZ……then lose in the final to Wales!

    107. Clapper57 says:

      So seen that video on last night’s QT with woman who said Boris should team up with Brexit party and annihilate the opposition…random woman picked to make this comment in LARGE audience …or perhaps NOT so random.

      Knew she was a member of Brexit party…another plant who is given chance to make comment…what’s the chances….eh ?

      Check out Sunderland Unites twitter ….she is in picture with comment from tweet from Glenn Thompson prospective parliamentary candidate for the Brexit party.

      The tweet comment from him :

      “Some of our amazing South Shields Brexit party campaign team members in tonight’s QT audience with fellow Brexiteers”

      BBC they never fail….Brexit party plants…Tory plants…Unionist plants…that is plants as in members who campaign for a political party…or are Councillors…ex MSP’s…ex political failed candidates called BILLY …prospective candidates….ex Councillors…just luck that they apply and get accepted to be in the audience…AAAAAAAANNNNNNNDDDDDDDDD…get to make a comment or ask a question…..lucky lucky lucky…as opposed to seat plan…earpiece on Fiona telling her to pick certain person in audience….just pure chance…..I think not…Lol

    108. defo says:

      Personally, I’m hoping England score early.

      Just enough to get the commentators in full Spitfire mode.

      And then for the leathering, good and proper, from our fellow colonials.

      Petty schmetty

    109. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Giving the recent Queen’s Speech, HM kept going-on about my government. It is referred to as Her Majesty’s Government, while Jeremy Corbyn is Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition.

      The English are subjects of Her Sovereign Majesty.

      So why doesn’t the dear old biddie put her foot down and tell her Prime Minister of her government and the Leader of her Loyal Opposition, I am dissolving my parliament – hold a General Election and sort this out.

      And if, along the way, she told them: “Brexit was sold on a pack of lies, revoke Article 50 and start again, only this time – be honest with the people.” So much the better.

      Otherwise, why are we paying her and her family all that money, and allowing them to live high on the bog.

      And, just maybe, as a means of encouraging her, the Scottish Government might bring a bill before Holyrood saying that, since the Queen of Scots had not supported the sovereign will of the Scottish people, by allowing us to be taken out of th EU against our will, and with no notice of our views being taken by her Westminster government – maybe we should sack her.

      Now that might concentrate minds wonderfully.

    110. Republicofscotland says:

      National newspaper editor Callum Baird to also become editor of Glasgow Evening Times, a die-hard Labour and Unionist paper.

    111. Ian Foulds says:

      Mr. MacSporran -Well said at 4.13pm

    112. Capella says:

      As it’s a slow news day I’ve been catching up with Gordon Ross and In D Car videos. This October 22nd video is quite shocking. Using research from a US University found by Macalba, he tells us that Scotland’s trading surplus amounts to £60 b p.a. So that’s £1.3 Trillion since 2000 which has been siphoned off by London to spend on their wars and vanity projects, and to subsidise their wealthy lifestyle.

      On 23rd October Gordon posted a video on the dark money funneled via a Tory Chairman in Scotland, laundered through Saudi Arabia and Northern Ireland and finally to the Leave campaign. All of this is illegal and renders the BREXIT referendum null and void.

    113. defo says:

      I thought they’d sorted out the plumbing at Balmoral Socrates

    114. Dan says:


      Here’s the link for those that may have missed it to the article re. Scotland’s trading surplus. (It was included on the off site page hackalumpoff linked to this morning).

    115. defo says:


      I’m guessing the numbers/head show the UK as a whole in a very strange position.
      A few billions, here and there

      Just over half a trillion

      I’ve long suspected who’s really the subsidy junkie

      Maybe we could call it the Scurplus 😉

    116. Capella says:

      @ Dan – thx for the link. Gordon did credit Macalba with finding the research but I hadn’t seen it yet. If true, this needs to be circulated far and wide.

    117. defo says:

      Evan Dando just calls the four different parties GE Brexit position. Lib, Lab,Con, Brexit party

      That’s all there is, apparently.

    118. Grey Gull says:

      @Bob Mack
      We’re all Jock Tamson’s bairns.

    119. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      defo @ 17:57,

      Who the hell is Evan Dando and should we give a toss about what this nonentity thinks anyway? =wink=

      (I mean, otherwise than that he may be predictably representative of Anglothink?)

    120. mike cassidy says:

      Grey Gull

      But thank feck we don’t all look like him!

    121. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Graf Midgehunter @ 11:01,

      Yes, that seems a very realistic appreciation of how things stand.

      When we move into a position of being capable of escaping the clutches of an England cut adrift, I’m sure though we will (finally!) be able to cash in on existing latent support from within the EU. When, but only when. They won’t waste any time or effort on no-hopers.

      But even then, we may still be affected by the current festering sore that is Brexit. The EU craves some peace-and-quiet to get on with more productive matters, so won’t want to take on another “whinging pom”. Which may make a start to access negotiations somewhat wary, but the right attitude on both sides should overcome that fairly easily, I should think.

    122. defo says:

      Sorry Robert
      Not Dando!
      Davies, R4 anchor/establishment shill
      My bad

    123. Grey Gull says:

      @Mike Cassidy ?

    124. Grey Gull says:

      Sorry. Was trying to put smiley face! 🙂

    125. John says:

      If election is Dec. , 25th November is cut off date , so get registered now , it’s easy .

    126. Call me Dave @1.20 am

      Thank you for taking the time to post the text.

      Much appreciated.

      I’m not sure I’ve ever read it in its entirety but it is so apt.

      Thank you.

    127. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Dan @ 5.21

      That’s the sort of stuff that should be on here repeatedly instead of the usual fighting and name calling.

      These facts are well hidden by the English regime.

      Good post.

    128. callmedave says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Jings! Just in from Oban and caught your comment first there. 🙂

      Ecclesiastes 3 Bible:

      I made use of part of that at my father’s funeral as many do.

      Pete Seeger wrote the song from the words ‘Turn Turn Turn’ and it became a big hit for the Byrds & Julie Covington etal’
      Google them on you tube.

      Visiting my partners older unionist parents who I fell out with a few years ago. Never made up but some progress was made.

      He’s admitted the UK is a shambles and never thought all this Brexit and Boris would happen etc etc. Couldn’t quite see Scotland Independent but saw the Oban march recently and said it was impressive.
      They are both ill went up on an emergency visit so when I saw last nights posts I thought of the Bible and Ecclesiastes.

      Before I knew better I was in charge of bible classes for the children on Sundays ‘I was only 17 myself’ 🙁 Aye!

    129. Dan says:

      @Jason Smoothpiece

      Aye indeed, I tend to agree with you on that score. Quite a few long term btl commenters appear to have ebbed away over past 6 months or so. Whether that is just down to the seemingly eternal waiting game of cat and mouse to see where we go from here, or the btl hostilities who can say.

      Alex Clark returned the other night though, and imo he’s correct when he states that we need to make a noise, and a lot of it too, with decent discussion and informative links that folk can read and share amongst their groups.

      Hopefully the Wingers are having a braw evening in Glasgow and the social aspects of that will provide a positive charge to their Indy batteries.
      If Ronnie is there he might be pleased to hear that today I received my 50th letter from the TV licensing folk!
      It’s quite an impressive pile now. Apparently I even had a visit from them a few weeks back but I wisane in so they left a note.

      Regarding my post, I only linked to the article, it’s the folk that put in the effort over many years to produce the articles that deserve muchos thanks.
      On that score it would seem appropriate to also mention the late John Jappy whose twitter feed is well worth a scroll down as it links to some fine information and his blogs.

    130. TJenny says:

      Just checked weather for Edinburgh on 12 December. High of 5 degrees daytime and 0 degrees night. (Don’t know if that means in darkness as that could be early afternoon) Rain and snow showers and generally cloudy inbetween, Soo, postal votes for all it is then.

    131. Confused says:

      a secondary question in the last ashcroft poll showed a 45-35 lead on

      “will scotland be better off independent”

      – this is very significant, and shows where anyone who wants to make a positive contribution should concentrate, away from this bickering and pointless, lets go round again, discussions of things-done-to-death, or speculations on unresolved chaos

      talking about money can help to reach people you thought were beyond you

      – the macalbasite link and the economic info is great and has been posted before; then there was a recent story about the 43Trillion the empire took out of india – we need to do a similar calculation.

      but its easy to get lead astray on economic questions – economics is poorly understood, especially by economists; they measure the wrong things, they use ridiculous assumptions, they use towers of abstruse mathematics to build castles in the air.

      – in business the books are always cooked, to the cookers advantage; getting the real numbers one of the main reasons for industrial espionage

      the oil produces billions in revenue (reduced because the tories are giving it to their pals for free) but more than that, it provides trillions in collateral; that is why it is important

      there is no gold standard anymore – money is just paper; the city trades claims on wealth, valued in pounds, towers of these things, a hierarchy of ever more air fairy substance – these advanced entities are called derivatives; but you need something at the bottom, which is “real” to keep it all supported – for the world economy, this is oil (- did you see how quickly the americans sent troops into syria to protect the vacated oil fields)

      the point to make to the public is

      – scotland is intrinsically, very wealthy
      – scotland more than pays its way in the UK
      – indeed, it gets ripped off, royally
      – and if you add in the issue of historical reparations, there is a real grievance to be pursued

      these are the broad brush strokes, and anyone can understand them – peddling GDP and other technical measures is weak; there was another report a while back about how Scotland account for 36% of the UK’s “wealth”, by some measure, calculated in some way (- I would say it was a lot more).

      This is why people need to understand our opponents recognise Scottish independence as an existential threat – and will act to defend their interests accordingly.

      In public debate, the economic argument can be won easily if you keep to broad strokes and general argument; the killer point is usually

      – if Scotland is such a drain, such a basket case, why not cut us loose, drop the dead weight

      – the yoons pause at this, usually with nothing – sometimes they then recast the union as a philanthropic act of charity, which has no credibility.

      – if you want to drop some bombs on them, the mccrone report is always a good one – there is one very good, very devastating paragraph from it

      – then there is that recent andy critchlow article in the telegraph where he openly argues – “hey, hard brexit will be okay – FOR WE STILL HAVE OIL!”

      in terms of a real economy – you need food, energy, water, infrastructure and technology – and we have the lot. The UK debt – is their credit card bill, run up by them – we start at zero.

    132. mike cassidy says:

      Long time since I took bbc news seriously.

      So is there any truth to this shocking claim about an outburst of real journalism?

    133. Dan says:

      It’s great to see some of Colin Dunn’s (aka Indyposterboy) work now making it onto billboards around Scotland. Scroll through feed to see examples.

      There’s loads of other useful stuff on his site.

      I’ll just tack this on too.

    134. Stoker says:

      Brian Doonthetoon wrote on 24 October, 2019 at 11:48 pm:

      “Anyone else received this email?”

      “George Square Saturday 2nd November, 13.30-15.30.
      Indyref 2020: The National’s Rally for Independence
      Join Nicola Sturgeon to demand #indyref2020 as she speaks at an independence rally for the first time since becoming First Minister of Scotland. The National newspaper is proud to host the major independence rally in Scotland’s largest city. Our event is free and family-friendly.”

      Nope, but i can confirm the BBC in Scotland Teletext Service is reporting the same story with similar wording. Including a quote from FM stating how she’s looking forward to it and how she hopes to see everyone pulling together for indy etc.

    135. mike cassidy says:

      Here’s a case study in msm bullshit.

      Almost had me feeling sorry for the wokists in our midst.

    136. Colin Alexander says:

      Been busy looking up Colonel Bogey March for Nicola Sturgeon at George Square.

      Who’s up for protest banners that say:

      “Sovereignty, not s30 colonial servitude”

      “Independence not SNP devolution”

      “Brexit for the British: independence for Scotland” ?

    137. mr thms says:

      If Macron wants to know the reason for an extension it can only be one of these two.

      A General Election


      Ratification of the EU deal

      The UK government won’t budge.
      The opposition won’t budge unless No Deal is taken off the table.


      Macron won’t budge because the reason for the extension will not be forthcoming.

      So on the 31st October at 11:00 pm it is conceivable the UK will leave the EU.

      Last week Michael Gove held a meeting to trigger Operation Yellowhammer.

      The UK Parliament voted for the EU Withdrawal Act 2018 which incorporated EU law into UK law.

      The UK Government also advertised that the UK would leave the EU on the 31st October.

      (Would be a shock if something the PM said would happen was true)

      On the 1st November, the UK parliament could find itself in the position of having to vote to hold a GE on the 12th December.

      (This is the sixth Thursday that follows the 1st November)

      So to the reason for my post..

      Nicola Sturgeon is appearing at a rally for an independence referendum in George Square on the 2nd November.

      It would be quite a coincidence if her participation at the event takes on a much greater significance..

    138. Dan says:

      Stoker says: at 9:04 pm

      …Including a quote from FM stating how she’s looking forward to it and how she hopes to see everyone pulling together for indy etc.

      Pity she didn’t make it to the big Edinburgh march a couple of weeks back then, as she would have seen firsthand the Indy movement in full effect.

      Hmm, might have to look out my winter bike gear for a run through to Glasgow if the YES Bikers are planning to make an appearance.
      Oh, on that note I guess that means we will be having a referendum soon as there most definitely will be a material change… because everyone will have their bloody thermals and winter jackets on coz it’ll be so fookin cold!

      Scotland, an energy rich land where many folk struggle to keep warm. That in itself is a simply damning indictment of the supposed benefits of London Rule.

    139. defo says:

      GE triggered, one way or another next week ?

      Leading to a significant announcement in Freedom Sq.?

      e.g. Making plain the fact that it’s Brexit that is being fought over south of the border, fair and square, and the chances of remainish parties winning are next to nada.
      Best hope a coalition I suppose.

      Section 30 Demand, announce date of Referendum.

      Seem likely?

    140. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      25 October, 2019 at 9:35 pm

      “Brexit for the British: independence for Scotland” ?

      I doubt if many would be impressed or even understand your first three offerings but the fourth one has some potential.

      I would suggest changing British to Britain or Scotland to Scots and I think capitalizing it would give it more impact.

      All you will need is a couple of yards of kite fabric a magic marker, two brush handles, a needle, and thread or a staple gun.

      A trip to a decent craft shop and Poundland and you will be sorted for £10-£15 …. Look forward to seeing you on Nov 2 in Weeegieland.

    141. ElGordo says:

      Over the past few days we would have normally had had some insight on:

      – Extension of Brexits extension extension
      – General Election looming & demise of scottish tories
      – Ruth lobbying & double jobbying
      – Alister Jack soft interviews
      – Rick Leotard on QT
      – Kirsty Wark stunt on newsnight
      – BBC Ofcom report
      – Nic attending Indy Rally to call for indyref2

      Odd that none of the above fits the WOS narrative & merits an article these days

    142. ElGordo says:

      – Devolution of drugs laws
      – Carmichael on referendums
      – Johnson on consent of Scottish & Welsh parliaments
      – Rory the Tory on London Scotland comparison
      – Joanna Cherry, Philipa Whitford, Ian Blackford & Kirsty Blackman

      And this was just this week..

    143. Gary45% says:

      Colin Alexander.
      Time for the Horlicks son.

    144. Grey Gull says:

      Call me Dave@7.51
      Yes, had that at both my parents funerals. Also like Nehemiah 8:10.

    145. Grey Gull says:

      Had that reading at both my parents funerals (both wanted an independent Scotland). Also like Nehemiah 8:10

    146. Grey Gull says:

      Sorry for the duplication.

    147. ElGordo says:

      Neither be ye sorry

    148. defo says:

      I fear that’s a straight hammer

    149. Colin Alexander says:

      Col.Blimp IV

      Cheers for the feedback.

      How about:

      Catalonia: courage
      Scotland: SNP catatonia ?

    150. Colin Alexander says:


      Warm semi-skimmed milk. Thank you.

    151. @El Gordo 10.13

      Like I said before, Stu has been abducted by aliens

      Nutters have taken over the asylum and heaping calumny on all us SNP-supporting long-time campaigners for independence with their much better sooper dooper political insights

      We are all tractors ‘cos the 3 English Tory parties are not making it easy to get a second referendum

      They, of course, know where to get the magic wand that will deliver independence

      So the obvious way to enhance the path to Scottish Independence is to divide and attack the Independence movement

      Aren’t we lucky to have them??

      Why on earth would we want Wings to go back to exposing the MSM/BBC and the Unionist plonkers they foist upon us??

    152. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Colin Alexander

      I recall someone once saying that the Scots hadn’t been sufficiently oppressed to spawn a decent Independence movement.

      I think by decent he meant PLO, IRA, ETA etc.

      Not entirely a bad thing don’t you think?

    153. Breeks says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      26 October, 2019 at 1:06 am
      Colin Alexander

      I recall someone once saying that the Scots hadn’t been sufficiently oppressed to spawn a decent Independence movement.

      I think by decent he meant PLO, IRA, ETA etc.

      Not entirely a bad thing don’t you think?

      I think there is quite a broad spectrum to traverse before the SNP strategy starts to step on anybody’s toes in the PLO, IRA, and ETA. The SNP could safely turn it up a notch or too and still be well inside the temperate zone.

      Maybe he meant the Civil Right movement in USA, Black Panther’s excluded.

      I’ll see your one suicide bomber, and raise you one militant suffragette…

      How ironic that Bombs don’t discriminate.

      Scotland has a decent Independence movement, but it’s vocabulary is entirely democratic and political. Sadly Brexit isn’t about democracy. We won the democracy bit, clear and unambiguous, when Scotland emphatically chose a different path to the rest of the UK.

      It’s not a recount or we need, nor is it double or quits, it’s making the perfectly good mandate we’ve already got actually register and count for something. The democracy phase has passed. We are now in the midst of a Constitutional battle to make our Sovereign mandate count for something, or be swept aside. Sadly, we’re not doing very well.

      Democracy isn’t democracy if the mandate cannot be implemented. That’s the problem we have with our 2016 Remain mandate, not the numbers, and if we don’t stand up for our sovereign constitution now, then we can expect to be stymied by the same problem in 2020 and beyond.

      We don’t need champions for democracy. Right now, we need a champion to defend our sovereignty and constitution. If that’s not to be the SNP, then we urgently need somebody else to take care of it. Leave the SNP to it’s political comfort zone, and coordinate ourselves around some alternative Constitutionally based defence of Scotland’s interests. Time is short.

    154. starlaw says:

      United Kingdom is NOT a democracy it is a Monarchy, look up Monarchy in any dictionary then look up Dictatorship and compare. Boris Johnson would not get away with his nonsense in a democracy.

    155. Gary45% says:

      Colin Alexander@11.28pm
      There lies your problem Colin, “semi skimmed” !!
      Unleaded 4star gold top only my boy, get them arteries hardened, only then will you move over from the dark side.

    156. Stoker says:

      Dan wrote on 25 October, 2019 at 9:47 pm

      “Pity she didn’t make it to the big Edinburgh march a couple of weeks back then, as she would have seen firsthand the Indy movement in full effect.”

      Oh i agree 100%, she should have been to a gathering to address every potential voter & supporter there long before now but better late than never i suppose.

      The SNP need to up their public game & stop giving-a-toss as to how the BritNat media will perceive things, we all know what they do already. Even the very basic things they are failing to address adequately.

      This week alone i’ve witnessed 2 high profile members completely miss gaping open goals, one of them more than once. The two responsible were the one on ‘Debate Night’ and the other was Tommy Sheppard.

      Letting Unionists away with the 60-million market lies because you prefer to talk about your nephew/son-in-law or whatever is utterly reprehensible.

      They’ve been needing to up their public game a gear or two for some time now. The Yes movement gets limited opportunities to get the facts out as it is so when gaping opportunities come along, especially on platforms such as the BBC, they *must* be grabbed with every fibre of our being.

    157. Al-Stuart says:

      Cadogan Ayeright,

      You are an extremely intolerant individual. You write that the host of Wings Over Scotland has been “abducted” by aliens and call the likes of me “nutters”.

      Might I point out, without those here who give provisional and conditional electoral support to the SNP you would STILL be an ineffectual rump of 6 SNP MPs at Westminster.

      There are hundreds of thousands of non-SNP people who LENT their vote to the SNP at IndyRef1 and ever since.

      Your arrogance in calling voters such as me “nutters” taking over Stuart Campbell’s “asylum” is breathtaking.

      Cadogan, do you not get it? Stuart Campbell has dedicated years of his life on this, wherewas he would have gotten double the salary working in the video and tech industries.

      His analysis on where the SNP are headed by SAVING ENGLAND FROM BREXIT rather than get a grip and SECURE SECTION 30 plus INDEPENDENCE for Scotland is not “calumny” as you describe it. Quite the opposite. For you to constantly carp is a waste of your time and everyone else’s who seek Scottish Independence.

      Cadogan, I would agree with you that there is a problem. How do you resolve the divergence of those here on WoS and all over Scotland who are diehard SNP with the other “second class citizens” (not really proper SNP supporters, but we want their votes though). Such as the hundreds of thousands of former Labour voters who have been LENDING their votes to the SNP?

      Why should I and my family, workmates and friends vote SNP to be given dogs abuse by you and your diehard friends?

      All I want is a competent government and preferably at Holyrood so my company can continue creating jobs in the country of my birth: Scotland. Alex Salmond did exactly that. When he was first elected FM he pulled off a master stroke: Alex Salmond ran the Scottish economy very well for his full time at the head of the government. Many of my friends converted to pro-SNP because Alec was economically literate and did a brilliant job of running the country.

      Cadogan you are absolutely right to point out the problem here.

      But instead of the SPS (SNP Paranoia Section) slagging off everyone who is trying to debate how we get ourselves out of this mess, and how the thesis presented by Stuart Campbell should at LEAST be considered by Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford, maybe you could look in a mirror and be a little more understanding?

      I fully acknowledge the distress to good, decent SNP branch members who go out in all weather putting leaflets through letterboxes and raising funds. For 3 years I was an SNP branch member and did this too.

      Without these guys (all genders) there would be no SNP Government in Scotland. They all deserve great thanks.

      I absolutely understand how unpalatable some points of view (and fact) on Wings just now are to the SNP lifelong supporters. But many on here subsribe to Stuart Campbell’s forensic analysis for a reason. I and others think he is right. I believe the polls + research + findings.

      So how do you remedy the problem of the SNP solid souls with those here and the DISAGREEMENT/ANTIPATHY that you have with those who “lent” their votes to the SNP?

      Perhaps a little more tolerance, a bit more mutual understanding and a lot more debate about the facts. Less of what you just wrote would be very, very helpful. Cadogan, you and others of your ilk are also responsible for a loss of morale.

      Maybe a thread on how to heal this division might help.

      I would wager Stuart Campbell is already considering how to resolve that issue.

      Providing Cadogan’s aliens have not gotten a proctocologist from the movie Mars Attacks to insert one of yon hedgehog rectal mind control devices in where the Sun doesn’t shine. Mr Enright, if you see Stuart Campbell shuffling uncomfortably in his chair, you will know the 77th Brigade have got him and the spike probe erse hedgehog is doing its worst.

      Best wishes, Al.


      Cadogan Enright

      @El Gordo 10.13

      Like I said before, Stu has been abducted by aliens

      Nutters have taken over the asylum and heaping calumny on all us SNP-supporting long-time campaigners for independence with their much better sooper dooper political insights

    158. dadsarmy says:

      Did you notice that this article was posted over 5 days ago and is up to 658 comments on it? An average of just 132 a day, many of them from people who probably don’t support Independence? And that most regulars have been banned or have just disappeared? Or how quiet the Wings twitter feed is, and how long since stats were posted on unique visitors etc?

      This forum is dying.

    159. Liz g says:

      Dadsarmy @ 5.02
      Many Wingers would have agreed with you this morning,but we’re really all just a tad hungover. 🙂

    160. Gary45% says:

      “This forum is dying”
      Hey man the planet is dying, too many cows farting into space, equal rights for donkeys man.
      You know it makes sense.

    161. Al-Stuart says:


      I notice less abuse here now which is good. Over on other forums there are some exiles complaining but that has the aroma of sour grapes than fact based logic.

      The crucial thing is Stuart Campbell has crunched the numbers and the conclusions are pretty damning when compared with what SNP Westminster are at. Stu., has always said he is not a member of the SNP, so why do some SNP supporters use this forum as if it belongs to them and anyone disagreeing with their POV should bu66er off? Therefore, whether a few SNP supporters stay or leave is not of any great moment. It is NOT the noisy few that matter, it is the large swathes of voters that are important and the Rev., has published the polls.

      If you look at each annual fundraiser, Stu., phrases it along the lines of “shall we give the forum another year”.

      Dads Army you may be right when you suggest a natural end or WoS. I get the impression Stuart needs a holiday. He may even have had enough and shut up,shop. I doubt the SNP moaners will thank him for the Wee Blue Book and the 4% to 6% swing WoS has moved NO to YES.

      Those, including myself that get dogs abuse for holding a differing view can now understand, or at least empathise with how Stuart Campbell might feel with all the carp he gets.

      Dads Army, I would simply point you to the short, sweet and concise poll Stuart did on 18/10/19…

      The fact is that neither Ian Blackford nor Nicola Sturgeon will tolerate any lateral thinking or different points of view to their own. It is a difficult dilemma for hardcore SNP. But the a reaction to carp on those of us with a differing view is utterly tiresome.

      I know and can prove I was a fully paid up member of the SNP for 3 years and chipped in to the raffles + fundraisers etc., etc.

      When my friend’s registered charity (totally apolitical) was treated disgracefully by SG Minister Fiona Hyslop SNP MSP, I cut my SNP membership card in two.

      The ONLY thing that keeps me voting SNP now is Wings Over Scotland.

      Given the fact that 68% of those in Stuart’s poll…

      … voted for Ian Blackford and Nicola Sturgeon to gain Independence via a different route and we are all being treated like idiots by SNP HQ., I will stay on WoS, but my ballot paper for the SNP is on a guy shoogly peg.

      Cheers, Al.

    162. crazycat says:

      @ Al-Stuart at various times over the last day of so

      Well said.
      Cadogan Enright lives in Northern Ireland (unless he’s moved here in the last couple of years).

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