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The unbreakable lock

Posted on October 21, 2019 by

It’s Monday morning, readers, so welcome once again to the world’s favourite situation comedy, the United Kingdom.

The current position is that absolutely nobody has the slightest idea what’s going to happen this week, or today, or by lunchtime. The Prime Minister is as we speak being taken to court (again), and a whole series of votes in the House Of Commons may or may not take place and may or may not determine anything.

But there’s one particularly interesting thing going on.

There was much talk over the weekend that the DUP – massively disgruntled over Boris Johnson proposing a border in the Irish Sea that he’d previously categorically guaranteed never to support – would switch to backing a second referendum, which would be enough to gain it majority support in Parliament.

The media has since announced that they won’t, but we can find no direct statement from the DUP to that effect. All they’ve actually said is that they don’t WANT a second referendum, which alert students of language may have observed is some distance short of saying they wouldn’t VOTE for one.

So as things stand, a second referendum may well be proposed and voted on in the Commons today. What we know for sure is that it would have no chance whatsoever of succeeding without the votes of the SNP. But the party has been uncharacteristically quiet on the subject, and perhaps for good reason.

Because SNP voters, and Yes supporters in general, would be forgiven for expecting – indeed, demanding – that the party would exact a price for its support at a moment when it held unprecedented leverage over the future of the UK.

It would be manifestly reasonable for it to demand two things: firstly, that any second referendum would require a majority in all four countries of the UK to enact Brexit. There’d be no reason for the opposition parties to object to that – it’s supported by the public UK-wide, and of course it would make Brexit effectively impossible, which is what they want.

But the second demand is at least outwardly more problematic: that the opposition parties must pledge support for a second Scottish independence referendum. Yet it’s clearly a fair condition. If a re-run for Remainers is legitimate, without any sort of democratic mandate, then plainly it is absurd to deny Yes voters one that they DO have a (multiple) democratic mandate for, especially in such a starkly obvious context.

And again, this is a position backed by the public. There would be little to no political cost to Labour or the Lib Dems, because their own voters aren’t that bothered whether Scotland gets a second referendum or not (or indeed whether it leaves the UK).

They WOULD, however, almost certainly be furious with their parties if they rejected a chance to definitively stop Brexit for the sake of denying democracy to Scotland.

That fury, we suspect, would be very vividly mirrored among SNP voters if the party enabled a second EU referendum – which we already know would substantially harm the cause of independence – without even extracting any concessions in return.

Our guess is that they’re currently praying there’s no vote on it in the Commons this week. Because if there is, and they vote for it unconditionally, there’ll be hell to pay.

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    664 to “The unbreakable lock”

    1. Brotyboy says:

      Agreed.

    2. Bob Costello says:

      And not only that but they might just get another independence referendum and that would really f**k them up wouldn’t it? We might actually end up becoming independent

    3. Mist001 says:

      I’d like to see these events take place but since it’s Sturgeon and the SNP, I expect nothing to happen and we’ll have Blackford bleating in the Commons again and Sturgeon tomorrow morning telling the gullible again not to worry, independence is coming.

      I don’t even despair anymore because I know that the SNP are going to fuck it up. Again.

    4. Big Jock says:

      If they had the all 4 countries vote to leave caveat. Then it would be a no brainier. Remain would win hands down. Would there be any point in a referendum? Can’t see the opposition agreeing to that.

      In that case the SNP should refuse to vote for it, unless they conceded the section 30 beforehand. Problem with that is it might well be the Tories in charge again and they would not honor anything signed by the opposition.

    5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If they had the all 4 countries vote to leave caveat. Then it would be a no brainier. Remain would win hands down. Would there be any point in a referendum? Can’t see the opposition agreeing to that.”

      Since the opposition all WANT Remain to win, why would they object? Out of a sense of democratic fair play? LOLZ.

    6. It would be manifestly reasonable for it to demand two things: firstly, that any second referendum would require a majority in all four countries of the UK to enact Brexit. There’d be no reason for the opposition parties to object to that – it’s supported by the public UK-wide, and of course it would make Brexit effectively impossible, which is what they want.

      But the second demand is at least outwardly more problematic: that the opposition parties must pledge support for a second Scottish independence referendum. Yet it’s clearly a fair condition. If a re-run for Remainers is legitimate, without any sort of democratic mandate, then plainly it is absurd to deny Yes voters one that they DO have a (multiple) democratic mandate for, especially in such a starkly obvious context.
      ———————

      I made a comment last night proposing this almost word for word, with one exception: that it’s presented to those wanting EU Ref 2 as a choice of ONE of the above. Here’s the comment:

      >One thing that Stu and others are right about it is that the SNP seem to be failing to use this brief period of leverage in Westminster, due to being *too* consistent and therefore predictable in their Brexit stance.

      >With the current scramble to get support for EU Ref 2, the SNP might just be able to thread the needle as follows.

      >They agree to support EU Ref 2 in the HOC if ONE of the following happens:

      >1. They’re granted a permanent transfer of all constitutional and broadcasting matters to Holyrood. (This could be negotiated down to a S30 if necessary).

      >OR

      >2. For EU Ref 2 to result in the UK leaving the EU all four countries have to vote for it.

      >And the SNP make it clear that this is a *choice* for Labour and the Lib Dems. They simply have to grant us one of these and we’ll support the second EU ref.

      >I cannot see Labour in particular agreeing to 2, so that leaves them with 1 as their only option. If they reject that too then that’s on them. We gave them two requests fully supported in Scotland and they turned them both down. Then Labour go into a GE having to defend blowing their one chance at a second EU ref because they wouldn’t give Scotland *either* of its requests, and therefore facing EU obliteration in England and Wales too.

      >Even this is unlikely to succeed, of course, but it’s surely worth a try. Use the leverage we now have, not on the Tories but on Labour.

    7. ScotsRenewables says:

      And the Wings BTL SNPHaters are out of the trap, it’s BobCostello in the lead but the newcomer Mist001 is coming up on the outside . . .

      YAWN

      On a more positive note, let’s hope there is a vote for another Brexit referendum and the SNP DO vote for it. Because there is no chance of Scotland votiong for independence even if it is offered it on a plate, we will fuck it up again because that’s what we do.

      (And if there is a new referendum, expedited by – guess who?? – then expect to see these same btl haters telling us why we should vote NO because it is all an SNP plot . . . )

    8. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Anarchic English public-school boys are still calling-the-shots, Letwin and Benn to name but two of them. Everything is changing, bugger all has changed.

    9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “And the Wings BTL SNPHaters are out of the trap, it’s BobCostello in the lead but the newcomer Mist001 is coming up on the outside . . .

      YAWN”

      If you find it so boring here, feel free to fuck off rather than boring people by whining on endlessly about how bored you are. I can help you if you like.

    10. “EU obliteration” above should read “GE obliteration”.

      Note too that the demand for full constitutional powers for Holyrood etc can then be *negotiated down* to an S30. I have a bee in my bonnet about the SNP demanding too little in discussions with London parties.

    11. callmedave says:

      Yes I think that stance is justified.

      We are a country in our own right and in a EU referendum if it is a remain vote in Scotland we should stay in Europe. (backstop)

      A UK vote swamps the other 3 countries and England’s electorate drags the other 3 along. (equal partners in a Union my a@se)

      Then onto Indi Ref2 and if Independence gets the nod once the dust settles look at everything afresh. (even Europe) (Queenie) etal.

      If not an independence vote then we ‘suck it up’ but are still are in Europe with a better trade deal and freedom of movement and more socially acceptable rules.

      By then many of us will be gone…deid… Norwegian blue parrot!
      But others will continue on for Indi Ref3. 🙂

    12. dadsarmy says:

      without extracting any concessions in return

      I’d say “without attempting to extract any concessions in return”.

      They should put forward a couple of amendments along the lines of above, but even if they amendments are voted down, should vote FOR a second EU referendum.

    13. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Stu’s propositions seem emiently reasonable ones. Remind the BritNat Remainers that there is no free lunch. Another EURef is an unwanted distraction for us, but if it has to be, let it be for a worthwhile price.

      and I’m still prepared to believe that might actually be the SNP WM position also.

    14. Martin says:

      The problem which will arise if 2nd vote proposed is that the other parties will say they’re not supporting indyref2 and call the SNP’s bluff. SNP then stuck in the situation of not having demands met but not wanting to tank PV. A situation for which they will only have themselves to blame for 3 years of taking their eye off the prize and focusing on stopping brexit.

    15. defo says:

      Remembering that your average punter isn’t Plato, and that up here the two referendums would effectively be conflated into one,
      i.e. What they’d be asked is UK(Eng would almost certainly vote Leave), or EU?
      Too much for some to comprehend, and they’ve got a vote too.
      Messy & risky.

    16. Cellar Shark says:

      Rather than pledging support for an independence ref:

      1. Any second referendum would require a majority in all four countries of the UK to enact Brexit.

      2. In the absence of 4 majorities, provide the option to disolve the Union to allow each member do to its own thing.

    17. ScotsRenewables says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      If you find it so boring here, feel free to fuck off rather than boring people by whining on endlessly about how bored you are. I can help you if you like.

      So you are going to start banning people who disagree with you or who choose to defend the SNP?

      Your blog, your choice. Up to you. You seem determined to alienate as many of your former supporters as you can for some reason. How.s the viewing figures, out of interest?

    18. Muscleguy says:

      I wonder if here in Scotland perhaps NI on the same day as the second Brexit referendum we could have an IndyRef here and a Border Poll in NI?

      Then we could ignore the Brexit referendum and go hellf or leather to get us out of the Westminster clusterfuck. Pointing out that even if the Second Brexit referendum goes for Remain the Brexiters will not go away. The ERG group in the Tory Party might well just defect to the Brexit Party en mass. Can anyone rule that out? Farage won’t be going away either.

      Brexit would still and for a very long time be a major issue in English politics. We and NI should leave them and Wales to it. Though pity the native Welsh, outvoted they claim by English Settlers. I can also see the British govt seek to abolish or neuter the Cardiff Bay parliament. While there are three of us Devolved parliament parts of the UK that can seem normal and just but the Welsh being the only ones? Cue the Cornish and Yorkshire nationalists cutting up rough about that one and WM killing it by abolishing Welsh Devolution.

      Devolution was essentially forced on the UK by the Council of Europe (NOT part of the EU) but it seems the Tories want to be like Vlad of Russia and leave that too (it has Europe in the title). So free of those meddling democratic monitors the UK will be free to do what it wants with just some noises off.

    19. Martin says:
      21 October, 2019 at 11:41 am
      The problem which will arise if 2nd vote proposed is that the other parties will say they’re not supporting indyref2 and call the SNP’s bluff. SNP then stuck in the situation of not having demands met but not wanting to tank PV.
      —————-

      But Martin, surely all the SNP need is to be *seen* to be for a PV, and in this scenario they would be. They favoured a PV and made an offer to support it on condition that Scotland got *something* in return: indyref2 and/or (I prefer ‘or’) all four countries having to agree to leave.

      If both of those requests were then rejected then that’s on the Lib Dems and Labour, not on us. Labour would then have to go into the GE defending blowing EU Ref2 because they rejected two requests supported not only in Scotland but, as Stu shows above, in the UK as a whole. They would be wiped out in such circumstances.

      In other words, the proposal here couldn’t be a bluff from the SNP. They’d need to be prepared to refuse support for EU Ref 2. That’s the only way they get real leverage.

    20. Bob Mack says:

      There are very few “SNP” haters posting on here. There are people with genuine concerns over their strategy on this issue of how to deal with Brexit.

      Those are different things entirely. If you cannot grasp that tben perhaps its you who has the problem.

    21. Doug Bryce says:

      SNP have this covered.

      Joanna Cherry on radio argued that we need general election before second EUref. The current government can’t be trusted to deliver a peoples vote : which is correct (and I agree, peoples vote could cancel SNPs current mandate for Indy as described above).

      Ultimately if Brexit is cancelled there will be civil war in England. There is nothing SNP can really do to influence the outcome.

    22. Robert Louis says:

      I’m not a violent person, but THIS article and its absolutely sound logic, should be metaphorically nailed to the foreheads of every single SNP MP and the SNP leader/Scottish First Minister.

      It is a truly golden opportunity.

      This is what is commonly referred to as a ‘no-brainer’.

      So, let’s see what happens…

    23. ScotsRenewables says:

      That fury, we suspect, would be very vividly mirrored among SNP voters if the party enabled a second EU referendum – which we already know would substantially harm the cause of independence – without even extracting any concessions in return.

      For the record, before I am banned, I agree that the SNP should attempt to secure concessions before supporting a second Brexit referendum.

      But if they are unsuccessful?

      I am not so certain they should vote against it in the absence of any deal, because lets face it they represent Scotland and Scotland voted against Brexit.

      I think more SNP voters would be incensed by the SNP voting against a second Brexref (or abstaining) than would be incensed by them voting FOR it.

      And – I am not convinced that a second Brexit referendum would damage the cause of independence in Scotland. That presupposes that the result of any such referendum would be REMAIN. There is no solid evidence that this wojld be the case. In the event of a second LEAVE vote but a big REMAIN majority in Scotland support for Indy would be enhanced, not lessened.

      This POCV is just as valid as the opposite IMO – as the Rev says, none of us know what will happen by lunchtime.

      I DO believe we need to tone down the anti-SNP rhetoric however, as I do not see any way this can be doing our cause any good.

      And I believe I have every right to be suspicious of a raft of new posters jumping on the anti-SNP platform this site is currently providing.

    24. callmedave says:

      O?T ish.

      Tory and Labour MPs on tv there saying “rushed law is bad law and time and care is needed”….over 600 pages init!

      (er! except all these Scottish things we rushed through parliament in one day 18 months or so) and suck it up Jocks! 🙂

    25. Martin says:

      Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

      21 October, 2019 at 11:52 am

      In other words, the proposal here couldn’t be a bluff from the SNP. They’d need to be prepared to refuse support for EU Ref 2. That’s the only way they get real leverage.

      Could not agree more! But my assessment of the reality, from viewing SNP track record is that they would still back PV in those circumstances. I don’t see them voting it down no matter how smart that is. So in reality, it is a bluff.

    26. Bob Mack says:

      \Scotsrenewables.

      Why not ask the Rev how long some “new”posters have been contributing to Wings. Might surprise you.

      This is a major issue that would encourage many previously silent readers to speak up.

    27. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “They should put forward a couple of amendments along the lines of above, but even if they amendments are voted down, should vote FOR a second EU referendum.”

      What a great negotiating position. We’ll be independent in no time!

    28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So you are going to start banning people who disagree with you or who choose to defend the SNP?”

      No, I ban tedious abusive wankers. You’re about one more dickish comment away from the line.

    29. Rob says:

      Why would the SNP need any clause beyond “hold a referendum needing four party agreement?” As things stand (which is where my reasoning falls flat, I guess) were England blocked from Brexit by a Scottish “veto” we’d likely see irresistible southern pressure for an indyref re-run. Yes?

    30. Capella says:

      I recollect that Alex Salmond demanded this very thing – each constituent country to vote LEAVE if the LEAVE vote was to be valid – in the run up to the 2016 EU referendum. David Cameron flatly refused to entertain it. IMO that is exactly what will happen again. Why should England dilute its power in the UK?

    31. BobW says:

      @ScotsRenewables

      The final two paragraphs remind me of cereal woman.
      Must we all now just sit down, shut up and eat our cereal, to keep you happy?

      I’ve voted SNP for more than 40 years, i’m not and never have been a member of any political party, criticism of a party’s policy does not equate to ‘hate.’

    32. Proud Cybernat says:

      Can see BritNat parties demanding caveat that if UK votes to Remain in EURef2 then IndyRef2 is off the table.

    33. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Joanna Cherry on radio argued that we need general election before second EUref.”

      She can argue whatever the hell she likes. It looks like Labour won’t vote for a GE, so the proposition would be whether to vote for a second referendum or not.

    34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Can see BritNat parties demanding caveat that if UK votes to Remain in EURef2 then IndyRef2 is off the table.”

      Who cares what they demand? The SNP are the ones with the leverage here.

    35. Martin says:

      Could not agree more! But my assessment of the reality, from viewing SNP track record is that they would still back PV in those circumstances. I don’t see them voting it down no matter how smart that is. So in reality, it is a bluff.

      ———————–

      Even if it was a bluff, it would still be worth a try, no? Nothing much lost if the bluff is called and they go ahead and support the PV. Surely better than demanding absolutely nothing, which seems to be the current policy.

      I’m generally supportive of Nicola, but suspect Alex would at least try a bluff in these circumstances, or if necessary be willing to withdraw support for the PV.

      At the moment we’re way too predictable at WM, and maybe too honourable too, especially considering the pathological liars we’re up against.

    36. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “As things stand (which is where my reasoning falls flat, I guess) were England blocked from Brexit by a Scottish “veto” we’d likely see irresistible southern pressure for an indyref re-run. Yes?”

      No. England will never vote to throw us out. Quite aside from anything else, they’d find it much more amusing to keep us in and mistreat us.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      Boris et al talking of ‘wrecking amendments’. And the loyal establishment media spreading the same viewpoint.

      Ok, WM sucks, and we want away from its clutches asap. However, today, right now, it is total misrepresentation to suggest amendments duly passed by a majority of PMs are anything other than the will of UK elected lawmakers. The current WM makeup is the result of the 2017 GE held in midst of the Brexit debate.

      If they pass amendments to delay, or for an EURef2, or to stay in customs union, then that is the will of parliament. A parliament elected by voters who knew what Brexit was about.

      It might be ‘wrecking’ the plans of the far right, but to label sensible changes as being ‘wrecking’ is totally arse for elbow.

      Or maybe everything at UK level politics and in WM is consistently arse for elbow in these times!

    38. Rob says:
      21 October, 2019 at 12:22 pm
      Why would the SNP need any clause beyond “hold a referendum needing four party agreement?” As things stand (which is where my reasoning falls flat, I guess) were England blocked from Brexit by a Scottish “veto” we’d likely see irresistible southern pressure for an indyref re-run. Yes?

      ————–

      Yes, definitely. We have a real chance for leverage here, in a way there never was for a deal with the Tories (too many moving parts needing to align for that one to work).

      But London Labour know that if they facilitated what you describe, their Leave supporters might desert them forever. So we should use the four-countries request as leverage to get what we really want: indyref2.

      Present a *choice* to Labour and the Lib Dems — give us the four-countries EU ref OR give us indyref2 — knowing how unpalatable the first would be for Labour.

    39. PRJ says:

      Another condition the SNP can demand is. If Scotland votes 60% to stay within the EU and the majority UK vote wants to leave then Scotland has the right to negotiate towards independence.

    40. Bob Mack says:

      Breaking

      Scottish court allows case to continue to ensure compliance.

    41. galamcennalath says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      keep us in and mistreat us

      That certainly seems to have been the Tory plan since we dared to threaten their glorious Greater England in 2014.

      They could have gone ‘win hearts and minds’ instead they chosen ‘scorched earth’.

    42. Martin says:

      Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

      21 October, 2019 at 12:26 pm

      Even if it was a bluff, it would still be worth a try, no? Nothing much lost if the bluff is called and they go ahead and support the PV. Surely better than demanding absolutely nothing, which seems to be the current policy.

      I’m generally supportive of Nicola, but suspect Alex would at least try a bluff in these circumstances, or if necessary be willing to withdraw support for the PV.

      At the moment we’re way too predictable at WM, and maybe too honourable too, especially considering the pathological liars we’re up against.

      ——————-

      I think we might actually 95% agree going by what you say here. My only difference would be I don’t think if SNP’s requests are rejected they should abstain on PV proposal. Otherwise they become seen as toothless and compliant and will never be able to ask for anything.

    43. OT Scotland is being ignored says the SNP in Westminster of course it is and rightly so it had the chance of. Freedom and refused it other people have given their lives for freedom but we could not even vote for it I am talking about the No voters and Incomers who allowed this to happen and brought this shame upon us as one old shipyard worker said to me they used to call it the Red Clyde they now call it Yellow River and yes I still feel empty and ashamed at that result. Let’s put right next time no votes for Incomers or postal votes only those who were born and live in Scotland are allowed to vote on the future of THEIR Country do not forget 80per cent of Incomers voted no the last time and swung the vote in favour of no and it is not even their country this must not be allowed next time ???

    44. Stuart MacKay says:

      Sooner or later the SNP has to show that it’s not just faffing about. Now is as good a time as any to grow a spine and some claws.

    45. G says:

      It seems to me that what the SNP should be asking for is not simply agreement to hold indyref2 but permanent power over the holding of any independence referendum, otherwise we are conceding that the Scottish people are not sovereign in this matter. Whilst the received wisdom appears to be that another No vote in indyref2 would put the matter to bed for a long time, and that may well be true, it’s not something I am prepared to concede, and I suspect many others will feel the same.

    46. Proud Cybernat says:

      Who cares what they demand? The SNP are the ones with the leverage here.

      I’m fairly sure the BritNat parties will care. And they may very will simply ignore the SNP’s “leverage”.

      How would the numbers go if the SNP abstained on such a vote (as a result of their demands being rebuffed)?

    47. RobertTheTruth says:

      Joanna Cherry said on Radio Scotland GMS this am that she, Dr Phillipa Whitford and Hannah Bardell had put their names as co-signatories to a Labour back bench amendment supporting a second EU referendum. She said the wording was ‘acceptable to the SNP’ but did not elaborate that they had insisted on any conditions.

      As far as I recall the SNP are putting forward their own amendments which may have conditions but we will see. However, as we have seen umpteen times they are unlikely to command any support from the Unionist parties. So the SNP may be left supporting a Labour amendment which has nothing in it for them except a UK wide remain or confirmatory vote.

    48. callmedave says:

      Ah!
      BBC says that the Edinburgh court adjournment can still can result in a letter being sent to EU on behalf of the UK Gov if Judge decides in favour.

      Not done yet.

    49. manandboy says:

      https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/10/england-and-the-union/

      ENGLAND SUBSIDISES SCOTLAND

      A tale of highly successful brainwashing.

    50. Bob Mack says:

      Im wondering if the SNP are majorly concerned about the prospect of a border between Scotland and England ?

      Its the only thing that makes sense as to why they are fighting for all of the UK to remain.

      Would a border not be quite problematic in many ways other than trade? Any ideas?

    51. Old Pete says:

      Hope Scottish court nails Johnson for the truculent wean that he is. As regards above on the SNP, our biggest problem is we need a way round requiring ‘permission’ to have a referendum after all we have had years to figure something out legally.

      Maybe UDI after winning a decisive victory in the upcoming general election. Scotland remaining in the EU if you vote for the SNP or Scotland must have Independence to decide our on future with England the EU and the rest of the world. Take back control of Scotland for and by the Scottish people from this vile English government.

    52. Marty says:

      If we are going down that route then we sould aim big. Demand that the power to hold any and all future referendums on Indy be decided in the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Parliament only!!!

    53. Proud Cybernat says:

      Johnson set to pull Brexit Bill if Bercow allows any amendments to be attached.

    54. dadsarmy says:

      What a great negotiating position. We’ll be independent in no time!

      Since 2015 with 56 MPs, and 2017 with 35 MPs, the SNP have had absolutely zero negotiating position, zero power, zero effect, null, zilch, nil nada zip. Even with 59 it would be no different. The futile 56, the thwarted 35.

      But they can use it for “marketing” purposes.

      Hearts and minds, hearts and minds, and according to Cutrice that IS working. Just very slowly that’s all.

    55. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “A tale of highly successful brainwashing.”

      Well, not THAT successful, as only half of English people actually believe it even after decades.

    56. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I’m fairly sure the BritNat parties will care. And they may very will simply ignore the SNP’s “leverage”.

      Well, they can’t ignore it. If they don’t get the SNP’s votes they won’t win.

    57. dadsarmy says:

      @ScotsRenewables
      I DO believe we need to tone down the anti-SNP rhetoric

      Totally disagree. Indy Ref 1 mopped up most of the SNP sympathetic voters, GE2015 the rest, what was left were other party voters, and in particular, non-party members. Many of who vote NO and can’t stand the SNP. But voted Remain.

      If we want to get close to them, inside their space so we can help move them to at least undecided, going round with religious icons of “Nicola” and the SNP and singing Kumbaya my love I love Nicola might make them boak, hopefully make them laugh, but won’t win them over.

      Hearts and minds, hearts and minds.

    58. Bob Mack

      That is precisely the reason the SNP is trying to keep the whole UK in the Customs Union. If England is out of the EU and we are trying to stay in then we cannot escape from a land-border between Scotland and England as that would be the de facto EU border.

      This has been a main tenet of their argument since the referendum in 2016 formed part of their document that they produced about the best solution for Scotland which the Tories ( T May) dismissed outright three years ago.

      However, maybe you will have a better reception for your suggestion. When I suggested this some months ago I was accused of reiterating unionist fear mongering.

      Maybe some people are actually beginning to see exactly how the SNP is trying to navigate a minefield and get the best possible result for Scotland without rushing headlong into a UDI and subsequent Catalonian situation.

      A better PM than T May should have suggested a cross party approach to the 51%/49% outcome to the initial referendum result and put that in place before triggering Article 50 – plus it should have embraced all four nations of the UK. Compromise form the beginning would have helped to remove the divisions which have festered since.

      Failure to do so has clearly shown that this entire issue is about England and how the Conservative party can take back control.
      If you remember, it was the original threat from UKIP which was ‘stealing’ voters from David Cameron and his knee-jerk response was to allow the EU referendum.

    59. dadsarmy says:

      Meantime back in world Boris, the CoS Inner House has agreed to continue the case, keep it open to see what Bozo does next, as he has to accept any extension or – be in contempt of court.

      Don’t forget any contempt proceedings are NOT up to Cherry and Maugham, they’re up to the Court itself. Nothing in that judgement today stops that from happening.

    60. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP at WM have no leverage.
      They are there to make up the numbers.

      Colonial moaner administrators of the Union.

      The SNP know their place. They have already promised unequivocal support, no conditions attached, for a UK one nation (England decides for the rest) People’s Vote.

    61. Bob Mack says:

      @Meg,

      I was talking to a friend who is an SNP convenor, Now this was “nuanced in our talk. He did not say it directly but rather insinuations of problems and solutions such as needing to build our infrastructure,ports roads etc.

      Maybe there is truth in that should any border happen or be imposed by England.

      We wil! cope though.Of that there is no doubt.

    62. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      You are only spouting anger. Fine. Maybe you need to come up with solutions as well.

    63. Capella says:

      @ ScotsRenewables – I agree that, when Stu posts an article criticising the SNP, a whole crop of new posters appear agreeing that the SNP are very bad indeed. Craig Murray’s blog has done the same from time to time. But it’s their blogs and they can write whatever they think fit. I have no doubt of their commitment.

      Meanwhile, the unionists and MSM carry on broadcasting lies and mendacity.

      You have a website and Nana has been busy posting links on it. Perhaps adding some opinion articles would provide a positive take on current developments or at least another point of view. There is plenty to talk about.

      I too oppose some SNP policy, notably the GRA. They are not the only party going down this road but they are in government and in a position to take a lead. So criticism is justified IMO.

      But when a campaign starts we will unite for Indy.

    64. dandydons1903 says:

      SNP have let a lot of people down here. I think that we should be looking at getting a Scottish independence party up and running one that hasnt been unlike the SNP infiltrated by agents of England.

    65. dadsarmy says:

      The two leaders have also sent a joint letter making the same request to European Council President, Jean Claude Junker, saying that the deal requires the consent of both the Scottish Parliament and the Senedd.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17982897.scottish-welsh-fms-demand-time-scrutinise-damaging-brexit-deal/

      That’s the SNP for you, doing nothing. Lazy gits!

    66. Bob Mack says:

      @Dabdydons1903,

      You wi!l never ,ever, have a party that is not infiltrated by some form of opposition. It cannot be done.

      Too many vesfed interests go let politics go unmonitored.

    67. crazycat says:

      @ Capella at 12.24

      I recollect that Alex Salmond demanded this very thing – each constituent country to vote LEAVE if the LEAVE vote was to be valid – in the run up to the 2016 EU referendum. David Cameron flatly refused to entertain it. IMO that is exactly what will happen again.

      The official explanation (provided by David Lidington in the HoC) was that the safeguard was unnecessary because the referendum was only advisory.

      I think they might find it quite hard to use that argument again (- wouldn’t be too difficult to come up with an alternative, of course – “We joined as one united kingdom, so blah, blah, blah…”).

    68. Johnny says:

      Yeah.

      In this scenario, the SNP are in (more or less) the position they say they’d want to be after a General Election, i.e. in a position to support Labour towards something.

      They say they hope to win later, effectively, by being kingmakers. But, as has been argued in recent days, they could offer the Tories a deal to pass the bill or they can support calls for a second referendum or a general election. Not getting into an argument here about who it’s right to support BUT the point is that the SNP are already in a position to be constitutional kingmakers due to the mathematics of Parliament currently.

      So I really don’t see why they do not try and extract what they want while they can, especially since we know we cannot magic up a Labour government for them to extract such concessions from later.

      I recognise that this is “a big deal”, “a risky time” etc etc with other parties being very determined to get what they want as well but, surely the best time to try and get what you really, really, want is when the other party has something they really, really, want and you can give it to them?

      Are the SNP trying to convey the impression that they are “above politics” by playing “a straight bat” and not asking for something in case “it seems venal” or something? Guess we will see but I hope our representatives keep in mind that they *are* “doing politics” and it is not possible not to piss off at least some of the people whatever you do.

      Perhaps it’s a worry about being accused of “divisive” or something that’s making them reticent. But that word should be banned as it relates to politics because it is all about division because….people want different things and pretending otherwise is futile.

    69. Iain mhor says:

      Scotland has no currency, no leverage, no bargaining chip other than votes. Votes are generally worthless, until someone needs them and is prepared to buy them. The occasions where Scottish votes as currency have had any value, are vanishingly small.
      Scotland should always be whoring itself for anything it can get; because the alternative is waiting to be paid after the event. That’s always a long and cold old wait.
      A failed state like Scotland, has nothing of value to trade, it owns nothing and controls nothing. It only has votes. Might as well use them for a new fur coat.

      *Altogether now*
      I’m a little pimp with my hair gassed back
      Pair of khaki pants with my shoes shined black…

    70. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – The official explanation (provided by David Lidington in the HoC) was that the safeguard was unnecessary because the referendum was only advisory.

      Good point. It does illustrate how politicians in Westminster will simply manipulate any rule, obscure or otherwise, to get what they want. The EU referendum is only advisory when Scotland’s vote matters but cast iron when England’s vote matters.

      This is similar to the status of the Grouse. It is a wild bird, therefore protected by law, when roaming about on the moors until some toff wishes to shoot it at which point it becomes the property of the land owner, except when it flies into your car and damages the windscreen and becomes wild again.

      These people have been making (up) the rules since Norman times.

    71. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      My solutions: Scottish Democracy and Scottish sovereignty.

      the SNP respects and uphold what Scotland votes for.

      The SNP respects what England, Wales and N.Ireland vote for and lets them get on with their own democratic decisions.

      If that means separate paths for Scotland and any of the other parts of the Union, so be it.

      the SNP promise to keep upholding what Scotland votes for in any other referendums.

      Scotland also voted for the right of self-determination, an indyref via the Scottish Parliament. No need for WM consent – the sovereign people decided by electoral mandate.

      The SNP should also seek a mandate to have the right to declare indy by GE: by 50% +1 of the popular vote for pro-indy parties. They could even keep this on win on standby, giving an opportunity for indyref first.

    72. manandboy says:

      There is much to be learned about Scotland, from the experience of women in abusive marriages / relationships.

      https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ne9mw7/this-is-why-women-cant-just-leave-abusive-relationships

      Scotland is in a Union with England. But this Union has become dominated by disrespect, abuse and endless lying. Not forgetting the never-ending transfers of Scotland’s wealth to England, mostly done on the quiet.

      There are parallels in this relationship with abuse in Marriage. It includes having less and less say in how things are run, apart from ‘devolving’ tasks like how to do the housework and hang out the washing, and eventually moves on to the woman being repeatedly told that she can’t afford to leave her abusive husband.
      So we get the mantra that Scotland is too poor to ‘leave’ the Union. Many ask how will Scotland manage without England’s subsidies. It never occurs to them to ask how will England manage without Scotland’s oil, gas, electricity, water, fishing and farmed food.

      Now, Scotland has to live with Boris Johnson.

      And so it goes on, and on, and on.

      Till, one day, the woman overcome her fears, and decides to leave.

      Let’s make it soon, Scotland.

    73. defo says:

      Given that politicians of all hues like the power and £ that their jobs give, making an EU ref conditional on all the nations being in agreement isn’t a goer IMHO.

      Howevs, agreeing to a new EU referendum would give the opportunity to hold Indyref2 before EU2 which would ensure our continued EU membership, and could be fought with that at the heart of the campaign.

      Would the mad Tory brexiteers deny the chance to get rid of the thorn in their side then?

      I think they might even help expedite the process.

    74. Liz g says:

      Couldn’t Westminster turn round and do the same thing though?
      Make Indy Ref 2 a UK wide vote where all 4 parts had to agree.
      Based on a yes vote affecting the ” whole” of the UK.
      Then
      Scotland would keep the UK in the EU and N.I. would keep Scotland in the UK!

    75. galamcennalath says:

      A thought.

      The immediate issues everyone is arguing about in this Withdrawal Agreement are citizens’ rights, money owed, and the UK/EU border in Ireland.

      If there is a crash out exit, then these issues won’t go away. They will remain for negotiation. They will be a priority to get solved. They will be precursors to any trade talks.

      It would be a changed environment, though (understatement). Here’s my thought. The EU would have considerably greater leverage as the UK would be in a desperate position. Basically, the beleaguered would just have to accept what the EU demanded. This it’s the way the Tories see it, full of entitlement and exceptionalism, but I think it more than likely.

      So, if the EU wanted all this mess tidied up, a month or two of utter chaos after a crash out, would focus UK minds on getting things sorted out asap then.

    76. Terry callachan says:

      I agree

      Yes a separate EU referendum in each of the four countries
      England NI Scotland wales

      A majority in each treated separately
      No joint U.K. vote

      We know the tories will not agree to this
      So we should propose to them that each individual country either remains or leaves the EU
      depending on the result in their own country

      Simple
      Yes I know …this is what WOS suggested years ago …was it two yrs ago ?
      But it’s the most sensible suggestion of the whole three and a half years
      Every country gets what it wants

      Not everyone…..but every country

      Tories as we have seen want everyone and every country to leave along with England
      DUP want every country to do the same thing even if countries differ in what they want

      If each country was allowed to decide for itself whether it remains or leaves the EU
      it would lead to the break up of the U.K. and as I have said all along

      There is one thing that Westminster will not do in order to achieve brexit
      and that is lose control of this whole island because they believe they own it

      They don’t mind losing NI , if they have to

      But not Scotland or Wales

    77. Martin says:

      I think we might actually 95% agree going by what you say here. My only difference would be I don’t think if SNP’s requests are rejected they should abstain on PV proposal. Otherwise they become seen as toothless and compliant and will never be able to ask for anything.

      ——————-

      Agreed. Sorry if I sounded a bit abrasive in our exchanges. It’s just that I think there’s an actual opportunity here, in a way that hasn’t been the case till now.

      If the SNP don’t at least *try* to use their WM leverage here, when are they ever going to do so? If no such attempt is made, Yessers are hardly going to be enthused to vote for SNP MPs in future, and SNP claims that ‘WM pays no attention to Scotland’ would ring hollow if they don’t grab this chance to make them do so.

      Or at least make more noises that they’re considering doing this. That letter from Nicola to Junker is a start (maybe).

      The SNP have earned plenty of brownie points for their consistency over Brexit, especially compared to Labour and the Tories. So they’ve earned themselves a little room to manoeuvre here. If they don’t at least *try* to seize this moment, their timidity might scunner Yessers so much they suffer an even worse GE showing than 2017.

    78. Terry callachan says:

      Every party in Westminster has MP,s who are not voting the same way the voters that put them into parliament voted with regards brexit.

      When I hear some of them say “ it’s the will of the people” I know it’s a lie because
      Westminster MP,s are voting on brexit for what is best for themselves personally
      when they should in all honesty
      be voting for what the majority of the electorate in their constituency voted for

    79. dadsarmy says:

      From a comment on Joanna Cherry’s feed:

      Despite the Prime Minister, The Attorney General and the Lord Advocate assuring the Court of Session they will not breach the Benn Act, the judges have essentially said, “let’s wait and see.” We live in extraordinary times.

      The intention is good but the execution is faulty. The Lord Advocate is OUR guy (Wolffe), it’s the Advocate General for Scotland he meant (Keen).

    80. dadsarmy says:

      A comment on LaraK’s timeline:

      #IAmNoLawyerBut Contempt/Perjury is a quasi-criminal act, Hence not clear if even justiciable by #UKSC as there is no leave to appeal criminal cases to UKSC from Scotland. Note sentence up to 3 months for contempt, up to 2 years for perjury.

      … and misconduct in a public office has a sentence up to LIFE IMPRISONMENT.

    81. dadsarmy says:

      Oh more like this please. mony more:

      Any idea why this always starts in Scotland Laura? It has the ring of Hillary Clinton marching around small maverick courts in the US trying to outlaw handguns.

      The Court of Session, Inner House, Scotland’s highest court, compared to “small maverick courts in the UK”.

      #FuckOffScotland

      I could of course point out that the longer the SNP keep the whole thing henging around in “the UK”, the more like this, but I won’t.

    82. Terry callachan says:

      The thing is
      We know england is never going to agree to another EU referendum that stipulates
      each country has its own referendum and all four countries have to vote to leave for the U.K. to actually leave

      And we know that England is never going to agree to another EU referendum that stipulates
      each country has its own referendum and each country can leave or remain in the EU individually

      And we know that England is never going to negotiate anything to do with a Scottish independence referendum linked to brexit conditions , that’s because England’s Westminster firmly believes it owns this whole island

    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Mack @ 12:59,

      The SNP are (rightly enough) concerned because of what ordinary voters may (be lead to) think. A “hard border” will be one of the few predictable BritNat attack vectors left. (Recall Magrit Curran’s lamentable “families cut off” scare story, for example.) Personally I’m long past that issue but undecideds may not be.

      It was, and remains, total bollocks, of course, especially if Scotland is part of the EU just like ROI. For all the UKOK exceptionalist bluster, it’s the EU which has the whip hand. Especially – there’s an irony! – if there is a crashout.

    84. tartanfever says:

      So the plan is to demand a second indyref from opposition parties who have no power to grant such a thing in the hope that they might at some point in the future have the power to do so (by winning a General Election, which they can’t because according to this site, they won’t vote to hold one or have no chance of winning it)

      I understand the frustration of people at the Tories for refusing a Section 30 order, and indeed the SNP for not pursuing more robustly an alternative way towards Indy Ref 2 , but for the life of me I can’t work out why demanding things from people who have no power to grant them is going to work ?

    85. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat @ 14:03,

      A stonkingly apposite reminder, cc. As soon as the result of the EURef was in, the “advisory” aspect went right oot the windae and hasn’t been seen or heard of since. (Foul play suspected.)

      Which makes it all the more likely that any future referendum in Scotland will necessarily be mandatory, however it is established, not least considering Scotland’s unique constitutional position. Vote or abstain, the result will stand. Which should be enough to bring out the voters (postal included). But that’s a fight for another day.

      In the meantime, any vote to invoke EUR2 on whatever grounds makes it virtually impossible for any BritNat hypocrite to refuse our one thereafter. (They may try, but will only look absurd to almost everyone.)

    86. Bob Mack says:

      H ats off to Bercow and the Scot tish judges

    87. callmedave says:

      Well Bercow provides no succour to the Government and goes on to help Boris out by asking him to get J. R. Mogg to update the house of new business later today.

      POO: (Point of Order) How did Bercow know Boris would send his letter?

      Bercow says he expected Boris to abide by the law! 🙂

      So it goes.

    88. callmedave says:

      Bercow again working hard for his salary and doing a good job in difficult circumstances.

      Some saying my friend is in the bunker others, Oh no,the ba@tards on the green.

      Anyhoo! He’s stymied Boris again to stick to the golfing analogy

    89. Breeks says:

      21st November for Alex Salmond trial….

      With you all the way Mr Salmond.

    90. dadsarmy says:

      From Nick Eardly:
      Also understand some agonising going on in SNP over what they would and wouldn’t back when it comes to 2nd referendum amendment. Some want to avoid referendum between PM’s deal and remain. Wording might be key.
      . . .
      One idea is to amend the PM’s deal to include customs union then put customs union v remain in referendum. V tricky though and Brexiteers would be furious.

      That would be a win-win EU 2nd referendum – for Indy 🙂

      No short-term damage to Scotland while building up to Indy Ref 2, and Leave rips itself to bits in a frothing frenzy of frantic freaky fridays. #FuckOffScotland

    91. Bob Mack says:

      @Breeks,

      Indeed

    92. callmedave says:

      Soor gr*p*s from the Tories Bercow is unfair disadvantaging his side.

      Bercow reminds him of all the times in past years he has been kind to him. 🙂

      We’ll be watching this for months and months…at this rate. 🙁

    93. Martin says:

      Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

      Agreed. Sorry if I sounded a bit abrasive in our exchanges. It’s just that I think there’s an actual opportunity here, in a way that hasn’t been the case till now.

      Oh good Lord, if anyone thinks you were abrasive to me I’d hate them to see the rest of all internet exchanges ever conducted by anyone! You were perfectly polite, I just got the impression we were both feeling we disagreed about strategy where in fact we were in almost full agreement.

    94. callmedave says:

      Ooft! Labour MP.

      Queenie is waiting and J. R. Mogg’s incompetence in trying to sneak in the same question within 3 days is disrespectful to her. He should consider his position. 🙂 Aye!

    95. Effijy says:

      Speaker sends Tories Berco!

      A Radio expert on parliamentary protocol explains
      That the Tories could have avoided this had they taken
      The right action at the end of day Saturday.

      Yet another of many glaring blunders that have been the Tories
      And Westminster these last 3.5 Brexit years and counting.

      The twists and turns the Tories make are like a basket of snaks.

      Petulant spoiled children from the richest backgrounds refusing to
      Accept they cannot have everything they want when they want it.
      Pathetic!

      Seems that Boris is grooming some EU leaders to encourage them to deny
      Any Brexit extension.

      This builds with Bojo’s other actions where he has proved beyond doubt that he
      Has not adhered to the parliamentary law that demands he makes a legitimate request for an extension.

      The Scottish Court of Session must now proceed to prosecute Bojo for breaking the law!

      Would you let an armed robber off on a technicality that he claims his gun was only aimed to the left hand side of where the Teller was?

      No!

    96. Bob Mack says:

      The Tories al so had the Queens speech which opened a new session of Parliament ogherwise Bercow would have had to deny any previous submissions from Cherry etc. They can now be revisited

    97. Fireproofjim says:

      All this talk of a “hard border” between Scotland and England is just the usual project fear nonsense.
      20% of England’s trade is with Scotland and they are not going to cut themselves off from that.
      Anyway, the intention in the case of Brexit was always to try to negotiate a free trade area between the U.K. and The EU.
      Scotland in the EU would get the best of both worlds. EU membership and a free trade deal with the rest of the U.K.
      A Brexit deal amended to include a Customs Union would serve much the same purpose.

    98. Bobp says:

      O/t, what Scotland needs is an Edward Snowden or julian Assange inside the corridors of Whitehall, a whistleblower who would expose this myth about England subsiding Scotland.

    99. Shug says:

      London do not see 4 countries they see only one unitary state
      Anyone who thinks London will allow representation s for individual countries is missing this clear point

    100. ScottieDog says:

      The quadruple lock if it went through would perhaps hasten England’s secession from the U.K.

    101. ScottieDog says:

      Well if there was to a be a quadruple lock and England and Wales voted leave whilst Scotland and NI votes remain, we might not even need indyref. The brexit/UKIP knuckle draggers might demand English secession.

    102. wull says:

      Lizg @ 2.36 pm. No, Westminster could NOT put such a condition with regard to Indyref2.

      Indyref2 and Brexit are not comparable in that way. Membership of the European Union is a different kind of thing from Scotland being in a Treaty of Union with England, which makes it (Scotland) one of the two constitutive entities that make up (i.e. constitute) the UK.

      There are two issues here, and they are quite separate things. Not only ultimately, or in principle, but in reality. Try thinking of them as being entirely different. Scotland becoming an independent country is one thing, and the what the UK decides to do with regard to Brexit – (i.e. what kind of Brexit the UK opts for, or even whether it carries Brexit through or abandons it) – is quite another.

      No end of confusion arises from conflating these two issues, treating them as if they were virtually one and the same thing. They are not. The Scottish government, being a devolved parliament, realises it does not intrinsically have the power to keep Scotland in the EU, even though a clear majority of Scots voted for it.

      If the country was already independent, and the Holyrood parliament therefore not a devolved one, the Scottish government would be entirely empowered and able and indeed obliged to implement what the sovereign Scottish people (or at least 62% of them) had instructed it to do – retain European membership. But as the devolved administration of a devolved parliament it hasn’t, as it stands, got these powers, at the moment.

      I think Nicola Sturgeon recognises the above. And realises that if she begins to act as if Holyrood has powers which it does not at present have, that will simply give the strong anti-Scottish forces at Westminster the excuse it wants, and is no doubt looking for, to close it (Holyrood) down. These forces, which do not understand the true nature of the Union which composes the UK, and who therefore totally ignore it (maybe because they simply are ignorant, or maybe out of deliberate ill will), would love to reduce Scotland to a the same status as Northern Ireland. And they would love to treat Holyrood as if it was Stormont, and interpret Scotland through a Northern Irish lens.

      Nicola Sturgeon has to tread warily. Sh can’t make a move which would give the real enemies of Scotland the pretext they want to reduce first Holyrood and then Scotland itself to nothing. I don’t like the fact that after the Brexit vote she so quickly said she would offer a compromise – i.e. she would actually compromise – the expressed will of the Scottish people to remain fully within the EU. I do not agree that she was empowered to do that, and I do not believe that it was the right thing to do.

      At the same time, it is only fair to make an effort to understand why she did it. And it’s plain daft to presume that she did it to thwart rather than to help Scotland, or to prevent independence. It’s also worthwhile to try to find a good motive that might have led her to this action, even if I personally strongly disagree with it. And, indeed, there, perhaps, is one aspect of the matter – she did not want to make statements or claims that would offer the real enemies of Scotland and her enemies a pretext for closing down Hollywood, on the grounds that it was exceeding its powers and threatening to act illegitimately.

      Her emphasis on legitimacy and legality is in fact typically Scottish, and it has a very long pedigree. If you go back to the crucible years of 1286-1329, it is remarkable how consistently and meticulously the Scots argued the legitimacy of Scotland’s cause. The Scottish lawyers never wavered in that
      regard and played an absolutely crucial part in the ultimately successful struggle to safeguard and retain Scotland’s ongoing existence as an independent nation.

      They did not simply use opportunistic arguments in the pursuit of that cause as occasions arose, and such opportunities came and went. Give her credit where credit is due – neither has Nicola Sturgeon. Most of the complaints against her here – perhaps including some that I myself have sometimes made – seem to be on the grounds that she has not been opportunistic enough.

      That is, she has not used and exploited the Brexit issue to the maximum advantage – for gaining independence – which pro-Indy people like myself and most of us here would have liked. That’s what opportunists do – they use one thing for another. They do not see or judge issues in themselves: instead, they think only of how they can USE them to obtain whatever their ultimate objective is.

      If you want a classic example, just look at Boris Johnson. Throughout his career all his actions serve only one end – not just that of the advancement of Boris Johnson but, specifically, that of Boris Johnson becoming PM. That’s even the reason why he opted to be pro-Brexit. Because he reckoned that would get him closer to achieving his only real goal in life. It’s not a conviction – remember the story about him writing for his own benefit two articles, one for Remain and one for Leave, before deciding which of the two options he would take. That’s something quite different from being genuinely convinced of the option he then took. He wasn’t actually convinced of either option, but chose the one that would suit HIM best! Fir his own purposes. That’s why he lies all the time, shamelessly, without even feeling any need to either justify or hie all his contradictions and switches of position from one day to the next. The only thing that would ever cause him shame would be if he did not promote his own cause and career, and now that he has got what he wants – being Prime Minister – don’t ever expect him to let it go.

      The least that can be said about Nicola Sturgeon is that she is nothing like him, and nothing like that. For sure, she does want independence, just as much as any of us on this sight, and no doubt even more than most of us. But she does not see the Brexit issue as pure and simply a means of achieving that end.

      In her position as First Minister of a devolved government, she thought she would never be able to keep Scotland in the EU after the UK-wide vote gave an overall Leave majority. So she decided to try to get the next best thing – keep the UK, and therefore Scotland, in the EU and the Customs Union. That is a position the UK could easily have adopted, while respecting the result of the referendum (even if, unlike Indyref1 in Scotland, the referendum on the EU was only consultative, and not binding).

      I can see why she thought obtaining that end would be the best objective for her to pursue, while Scotland remained part of the UK. First, it would keep both Scotland and the rest of the UK economically fully aligned with the EU. That fact would make it more likely to achieve an open border between England and Scotland when Scotland eventually did become independent, as she believed would still happen. If England was in the same CU and SM as Scotland at that point, with frictionless trade with Europe in place, then that frictionless trade would continue along the Scottish border after Scotland became independent. And it would continue if, after independence, Scotland rejoined the EU as a full member even if England did not.

      In other words, what she was aiming at was the kind of Brexit that would facilitate Scotland’s future independence, and not frustrate it. I expect that continues to be her aim. It seems to me we can certainly disagree about whether her strategy in that regard is the right or the wrong one, the best way forward in the long run (or even in the short term) or seriously flawed.

      What I find inadmissible, no matter how much some of us might disagree with her on these strategic matters (which I do admit are important), are those posts that impugns her personal integrity or question her commitment to the cause of independence. If she is NOT an opportunist, I find that a plus, not a minus. Unscrupulous, opportunistic politicians may seem to succeed in their objectives, in the short-term, but not for long. Very soon it all comes undone, and their great ‘achievements’ soon unravel and come crashing down to the dust. All their nonsense ends up in a heap of ruins. Not only their own, alas – for they take a lot of good people with good intentions whom they had duped with them.

      We do not want that to happen to Scotland’s independence. That project has to be built on firm foundations, that will make it last. The legal minds that fought that same cause with consistency and integrity in the late 13th and early 14th Century knew that, and they did a magnificent job. And they stuck at it with great tenacity.

      So should we.

      We shouldn’t be cavalier with sacrificing those who are with us on the same journey, towards the same end. Of course we don’t all agree with each other, on lots of things, but we ARE on the same side. We can’t afford to kill each other off with friendly fire. The only cause which that will serve is that of those on the other side, not ours.

    103. Bobp says:

      Slovenia’s prime minister marjan sarc issuing a statement on Catalonia saying ” it is not desirable nor permissible for a European country to solve problems with any kind of violence”. Dont suppose that’ll be on the BBC news at 6 or 10pm anytime soon.

    104. Tony O"neill says:

      I hope that part of the snp’s cunning plan to stop brexit is to deliberately annoy the English and Welsh electorate. So that the torys get a landside as I’ve said all along that they will because of all this stop brexit bullshit.

    105. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T
      “…describing something as a once in a generation event isn’t the same as making a manifesto promise.” – Alistair Carmichael.

      Thanks. Good to know.

      Source: https://twitter.com/proud_cybernat/status/1186316281332588554

    106. Juteman says:

      Well said, Wull.

    107. callmedave says:

      J. R. Mogg Business for the house this week.

      W Agreement bill Tues, Wed, Thurs…Day off Friday.

      He’s getting jip for walking off on Saturday
      a) for not making a business announcement but spoke to a POO
      b) not staying to hear the comments of other MPs

      and (C) (my view) generally behaving like an arse! 🙁

    108. John H. says:

      @Bobp 4.43pm.

      Do you mean someone like John Jappy?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG8uLTaicIY&feature=youtu.be

    109. Boudicca says:

      Well said Wull. I always enjoy reading your posts.

    110. galamcennalath says:

      “The year is 2192. The British Prime Minister visits Brussels to ask for an extension of the Brexit deadline. No one remembers where this tradition originated, but every year it attracts many tourists from all over the world.” © Julian Popov @julianpopov

      Will it turn out that way!?

    111. galamcennalath says:

      With the lives of millions potentially blighted by the threat of Brexit, what does the BBC headline with at six?

      Celebrity couple unhappy with the media attention their fabulous wealth and privilege attracts.

      Well, boo hoo. What about the millions of other couples struggling to make ends meet in the face of Tory austerity?

    112. Liz g says:

      Wull @ 5.01
      My concern stems from that very thing being discussed in the House of Lord’s in 2014 Wull.
      When the polls started to shift in our favour the Lord’s started wondering if the referendum section 30 could stand as it affected the whole of the UK and only Scotland voted!
      They also spoke of Cameron having the right to Commit to “respecting” the result that tresspassed into diluting parliamentary sovereignty and no Prime Minister or Government had that Authority .
      And yes I do know there’s a difference between both Unions and that in Scotland the People are Sovereign… But the Lord’s were exploring at that point in time if they could find a way to halt a Yes vote resulting in actual Independence.
      One way was to claim the section 30 invalid and the other was to claim that the WHOLE UK should have a say as the Whole UK would be changed.
      This is part of the reason I don’t think a section 30 will put a Referendum beyond dispute the way Nicola is saying it will!
      I think she wants it so that other Countries see it a having been watertight and the denials of it perceived as the “illegal” thing. Much in the same way Westminster has everyone thinking that a referendum without a section 30 as illegal…
      I would say that many people would see that if each part of the UK has to vote to leave the EU then each part of the UK voting to ( as they’d frame it ) break up the UK. As fair comment…. They are probably not going to make the connection that the WHOLE of the DUP didn’t get a Brexit vote.
      It’s the perception that we’d finish up having to argue,much like the currency thing.

    113. cirsium says:

      @Wull, 5.01

      Well said

    114. Liz g says:

      Me @ 6.40
      The EU… Not the DUP….. Duh….

    115. Cubby says:

      Nicola Sturgeon has the highest approval rating of political leaders in the UK among Scots.

      Sturgeon Plus 5

      Corbyn. Minus 45

      Johnson. Minus 36

      Farage. Minus 30

      Swinson. Minus 12

      No rating for Campbell

      Kumbaya Captain

    116. @Wull

      That is, she has not used and exploited the Brexit issue to the maximum advantage – for gaining independence – which pro-Indy people like myself and most of us here would have liked. That’s what opportunists do – they use one thing for another. They do not see or judge issues in themselves: instead, they think only of how they can USE them to obtain whatever their ultimate objective is.

      ————————-

      That comment was a pleasure to read, wull, and full of wisdom.

      Regarding the above, though, we need to remember that grasping an opportunity does not make someone an opportunist. If an attractive woman makes herself available to me — which happens about as often as the SNP have leverage at WM — it would be daft of me, would it not, to turn down the opportunity because I believe taking it (so to speak) would make me an opportunist.

      It’s possible to agree with virtually everything you’ve said above, and not believe Nicola’s a Boris-style opportunist, and still believe she should take the opportunity she’s been given this week, but that may soon vanish. The proposal in this thread offers the win-win, in your terms, of Nicola doing the right thing re Brexit (supporting EU Ref 2) AND possibly winning an S30.

      What Boris the opportunist does is very different: sacrifice doing the right thing for his own selfish ends. What this thread’s proposal would allow Nicola to do is have her cake and eat it: do the right thing EU-wise (from her POV) AND secure a new indyref. Make sense?

      Other than that, as I say, your comment is superb. Please keep posting.

    117. Helen Yates says:

      The ball is in their court, it will be interesting to see how they play it. the time of reckoning is upon them.

    118. Cubby says:

      Blair Paterson@12.41pm

      “They used to call it Red Clyde now they call it yellow river”

      Surely an independence supporter would know that Glasgow voted yes. So away and insult some other city you plonker – if you must – but get it right this time.

      You know what you can do with the rest of your blood and soil nationalistic comments. Not wanted in Scotland – try England these days. You and Callachan been keeping quite for a while but you just can’t help popping back up again with your unacceptable views.

    119. Gary says:

      There is one flaw in your analysis. It assumes that political parties act on what the voters want. They don’t. Even the parties have made this clear when stating that this is a ‘Parliamentary Democracy’ and that therefore the MPs are sovereign, NOT the people.

      It’s not that they won;t take into account what the public think, but that is ONLY to a limited extent and ONLY during election campaigns, even then, THOSE promises can and will be broken.

      Even then, the other assumption is that decision making happens in a vacuum. Were the SNP to do ANYTHING which in any way, shape or form could possibly facilitate Brexit then SLAB would milk it for all it was worth for ever more. Remember, they’re STILL trying to milk the no confidence vote on the Callaghan Govt in 79!! They try to tell voters that ‘SNP let the Tories in’ in 79. They didn’t, of course, that was the break up of the LibLab Pact, it was, unsurprisingly the Liberals who ‘let the Tories in’ but SLAB have never had a problem having coalitions with them at Holyrood since.

      The Tories are mostly hard Brexiteers, Labour will vote against ANYTHING they put forward even if it was something THEY suggested (Kier Starment was caught doing this only last week) SNP are in a strange position, Brexit both helps and hinders us but they CANNOT do anything but take a position against it as Scotland DID clearly vote to remain AND this is the VERY scenario always warned of that SHOULD get us another Indy Vote.

      You are having interesting thoughts and, to be fair, weirder things have happened BUT, in reality, none of this will happen…

    120. Stuart MacKay says:

      @Liz g 6:40pm

      Framing the debate to restrict options is always going to be a tactic of the people who want to stop something from happening.

      So take the example of the EU – in effect it’s similar to the UK just bigger. Everybody is an equal partner but there are a few 800-pound gorillas to deal with. So the UK wants to leave. Is the EU diminished by this – well, a little – clearly UK politics helps temper some of the more irrational statements made by commissioners – but it’s still the EU. It does not go away and essentially functions just as well as before, with a few adjustments to the budget. Should the rest of the members have a say in whether the UK can leave – well apart from being preposterous with wars started over less, the answer is clearly no – it’s supposed to be a collection of nations pooling their interests to create a stable Europe. Every nation in the EU is sovereign and while extricating themselves is clearly problematic there’s no way they can be prevented from leaving.

      For the UK, if it’s a partnership of equals, then clearly the same applies. If you can’t leave because of the wishes of the other partners then it’s no longer a union. If one country is dictating the rules then it’s a prison.

    121. Cubby says:

      The length of time someone has been posting or the frequency of posting is irrelevant to the validity of their comment.

    122. TJenny says:

      I haven’t read all the comments yet, so soz if this has already been touched on.

      From Ian Smart’s twitter,

      ‘Holyrood being recalled on Thursday “as an emergency” is your timely reminder that, having taken 9 weeks off in the Summer, they were back for 5 weeks before they took another 2 weeks off. Still, they now plan to sit until the Christmas recess. Which will start on 20th December’. (He’s a Slabber, hence the snark).

      So Holyrood being recalled as an emergency and then sitting from Thursday through to 20th Dec, could be in order to fast track through the Referendum Bill. Fingers crossed.

    123. dadsarmy says:

      This has some interesting stuff in it about who in England wants us – and who doesn’t!

      https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/England-The-Union-poll-Results-Summary-Oct-2019.pdf

      and this wins a prize for one of the most un-self-aware comments from an English person about his/her friends:

      My Scottish friends are worried about their pensions if they become independent. They hate the English.

      https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/10/england-and-the-union/

    124. Colin Alexander says:

      Dadsarmy

      Go Nicola! Whatagirl!

      Banging the drum for devolution yet again: “It is essential that your government respects devolution.”

      No mention of Scottish sovereignty.

      I wouldn’t expect it from a British Empire colonial administrator. Oor Nicola knows her place.

    125. Liz g

      I think the answer to your possible section 30 conundrum is the knowledge that the UK is a product of two kingdoms agreeing to join together to form one united kingdom in the same way as two people join together to form one union.

      The rest of the family don’t get a say on whether or not they want the couple to divorce, even though it undoubtedly will affect them.
      Only those who have signed the legal document are entitled to make the decision to separate.

    126. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – here is the UN declaration on decolonisation. The 7 points of the declaration are on p 67 so you need to scroll down one page. This used to be on a handy standalone doc but I can’t find that atm.

      All people have a right to self-determination.

      If we are an equal partner then we have the right to dissolve the union. If we are not an equal partner we are a colony and have the right to self determination. The UK has no right to obstruct our freely declared wish for independence. That’s not to say they won’t try of course.

      https://www.undocs.org/a/res/1514(XV)

    127. Lochside says:

      Wull says
      (NS)n her position as First Minister of a devolved government, she thought she would never be able to keep Scotland in the EU after the UK-wide vote gave an overall Leave majority. So she decided to try to get the next best thing – keep the UK, and therefore Scotland, in the EU and the Customs Union’

      Really Wull?..well when did she and Blackford, the merchant banker, at any stage, tell us that was the strategy? Your deduction may be correct..but that is the problem: Scotland ia the equal signatory of the Act of Union..in Sturgeon’s own words the Uk attempting to drag us out of the EU was a ‘material change in circumstances’.

      This should have meant a challenge via the ECJ for our Sovereign vote of a majority of 62% to be recognised as a de facto and de jure dissolution of the UK Union. But no, the SNP have gone down the disastrous devolved dead -end of fighting from within the Union trap and consequently tying themselves in political volte face knots with total confusion as a consequence.

      Boris and his controllers have and will continue to outsmart and outthink the SNP, because the English establishment is ruthless, deadly and without scruple. We will stay ‘catched’ because of the stupidity and cowardice of playing by the ‘House’ ‘rules’.

    128. dadsarmy says:

      @Colin Alexander:
      Dadsarmy

      Go Nicola! Whatagirl!

      Banging the drum for devolution yet again: “It is essential that your government respects devolution.”

      Are you mentally deranged? What does that comment have to do with me?

    129. Breeks says:

      wull says:
      21 October, 2019 at 5:01 pm

      ….. I don’t like the fact that after the Brexit vote she so quickly said she would offer a compromise – i.e. she would actually compromise – the expressed will of the Scottish people to remain fully within the EU. I do not agree that she was empowered to do that, and I do not believe that it was the right thing to do.

      I like your posts tremendously too Wull, and while I’m not deaf to your point we shouldn’t be condemning Nicola’s motives, which I more or less agree with, the thing which gives me reflux is exactly as you say, whether Nicola, irrespective of the best of intentions, actually had the constitutional authority to compromise a sovereign edict from the people.

      Ok, bad enough that the will of the people was arbitrarily compromised, but even with course corrected and error forgiven, suddenly there’s a chasm of doubt which opens up concerning how sure footed the Scottish Government actually is on Constitutional matters when it can commit such a, dare I say it, Constitutional gaffe?

      This isn’t being pedantic or obsessive about Constitutional issues, it is vitally important, definitive even, and cuts to the very heart of Scotland’s Constitutional predicament and our ‘apparently’ misunderstood Constitutional strength. We shouldn’t be making these types of errors or poor judgements. Nicola, for all her integrity and best intentions, simply needs to get it right.

      Or, if she’s convinced she is right and on the money in Constitutional terms, she needs to address the apparent anomaly; join some of the dots so thicko’s like me can keep up with the plot and maybe even get to sleep at night.

      If you don’t build from a sound foundation, then whatever you do build is doomed to collapse. I fear we may have charged up the wrang dreel, and not talking about it isn’t helping.

    130. Colin Alexander says:

      dadsarmy says:
      21 October, 2019 at 1:54 pm
      “The two leaders …

      “Go Nicola!”

      Was a response to your comment above.

    131. Mist001 says:

      @ Lochside

      “Boris and his controllers have and will continue to outsmart and outthink the SNP”

      If you’re a regular to this site, the Rev outthinks the SNP on a daily basis. No disrespect to the Rev but to me, the SNP don’t seem to be the smartest tools in the political box and there’s been plenty of evidence over the past three years to back that statement up.

    132. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Stu.,

      Excellent thread as always chief.

      I now have a little hope we might get IndyRef2 after all.

      For a RARE wee while, the SNP in Westminster have WITHIN THEIR REACH, the levers of control to demand a SECTION 30 or better still as MSM-BDSM suggests, Holyrood gets PERMANENT CONTROL for our own Section 30 protocol trigger.

      Or…

      The SNP at WESTMINSTER ABSTAIN.

      That pretty much guarantees the current Withdrawal Bill gets through. Even if the DUP go back to being the very well paid Tory g!mps.


      Onlyone problem. Ian Blackford has painted himself and the Westminster SNP MPs into the SAVE ENGLAND FROM ITSELF corner.

      Rev Stu., far be it from me to state the obvious, but YOU have a little leverage to “nudge” the SNP into growing a pair and actually trying to get something for Scotland in reciprocity for saving England from itself in the imminent vote + Labour EU-Ref2 Amendment.

      Stu., your LEVER is well described on another website…

      http://www.calumslist.org

      You only need to ANNOUNCE you are standing against Speaker Pete Wishart. The SNP high command will then have to take notice of the polls and logic on WoS. If not there are 4 more SNP GE 2019/2020 marginals to put the squeeze on Ian Blackford getting Westminster SNP MPs TO DO THEIR JOB AND GET US INDYREF2.

      Downside is IF the 35 SNP MPs secured a Section 30 Order for Scottish IndyRef2 they will likely say a BIG BOY FROM BRISTOL MADE US DO IT AND THEN RAN AWAY ?.

      I am sure the Bristol boy is big enough and ugly enough to take that one for the Scottish IndyRef2 team???

      Has to be worth your considering Rev? We have already raised £500 for your deposit at Perth and North Perthshire and Pete Wishart wanting to become Westminster House of Commons Speaker smells of him being far, far too comfortable living in London and working FOR Westminster, he is SUPPOSED to be working for Scottish Independence.

      By the way for the people here calling others tractors, I am NOT anti-SNP, I am certainly ANGRY-with-the-SNP.

      P.S. If I was so anti-SNP as some egregiously claim, go to today’s National page 6. The headline starts with “MP rankings”. Why on earth would I be determinedly supporting The National by buying it every day if I did NOT support Independence? ScotRen W??.

    133. Craig Murray says:

      Bob Mack

      Perfectly valid questions. If Scotland is Independent within the EU and England is out, there will probably need to be a hard border but it depends on the EU?England agreements. There isn’t really one between France and Switzerland or between Sweden and Norway, for example, but if England is outside the customs union and single market yes a hard border probably will be needed.

      I have spent today with Julian Assange in Westminster Magistrate’s Court. Not the sole reason, but it focuses the mind of what a vicious, authoritarian place Little England would be. A hard border against it would be a very good idea.

    134. Sarah says:

      O/T sort of: just wanted to say it has been a pleasure reading [most of] the exchanges btl this evening. Thank you everyone.

      I hope Nana and Hackalumpoff are looking in – look forward to seeing some comments from them both.

    135. Jock McDonnell says:

      re a hard border – we would in fact be opening up 27 borders for the cost of 1 new one & removing our eggs from being all in one basket

    136. Craig Murray says:

      Jock

      Exactly right

    137. Sarah says:

      O/T sort of: just wanted to say it has been a pleasure reading [most of] the exchanges btl this evening. Thank you everyone.

    138. Terry callachan says:

      Mist001…honestly ? Do you just make up these fantasies yourself ?

    139. Bob Mack says:

      @Craig Murray

      I totally agree especially the road England is trave!ling always !eads to an unpleasant destination.
      I feel some Indy supporters dismiss these problems too quickly. Yet it is probably a big factor in SNP forward planning.
      Personally speaking, a hard border would be no problem at all.

    140. TJenny says:

      Bob Mack – was your use of the enigmatc ! instead of l, deliberate? Or is it a secret code?

    141. Gordon Keane says:

      It is intersting the way the Speaker of the House of

    142. Bobp says:

      John h 6.01pm. Thanks for that John, never seen it before, very interesting I’ll be sharing it with family and friends.

    143. Gordon Keane says:

      It is interesting the way the Speaker of the House of Commons is able to use rulings about Parliamentary procedures, that pre date the Treaty of Union.
      That is in effect, telling us, this really is still the old English Parliament.
      Isn’t that grounds enough for Dissolving the Union?
      Because, if they can still make use of rules that were in force in London before 1707, it means the English Parliament has never been Dissolved, just the Scottish one.
      There is no actual Union, but a take over of Scotland.
      We wonder if some SNP Lawyer politician, would care to address that issue. There is plenty of such SNP MPs around at the moment. Some more prominent than others!

    144. Cubby says:

      Reading some posts I think I will amend my previous comment that some posters are letting their judgement be clouded by their loyalty to the site owner. They just don’t have any judgement at all but just like saying SNP/Scotgov/Sturgeon bad. They may dress it up as the right to constructive criticism but in reality it is destructive criticism.

      When do they ever post anything destructive about the Britnats. Their target is always SNP/Scotgov/Sturgeon. Deliberately or too dumb to realise what they are doing is trying to lower the morale of independence supporters.

      So what motivates them? Is it to demonstrate they are smarter than ordinary Independence supporters? Or just plain malice?

    145. Bob Mack says:

      @T Jenny,

      No secret really. you simply have to use a kindle, coupled with predictafext and contarcted tendons in your hands so you type with your knuckles.

      Not peffect but you do what you can.

    146. Gordon Keane says:

      SNP does have its support, for sure.
      But at same time, we are allowed to point out flaws in their present approach, regards Independence at this moment in time.

    147. RM says:

      If Westminster can use laws that were made before 1707 can Scotland do the same there must be laws that can help us gain Independence.

    148. TJenny says:

      Bob Mack – thanks for reply. I’ve seen this ! instead of l, on twitter too, and couldn’t work out how it could be a typo when ll only requires you to press same key twice, but !l needs the other end of the keyboard plus shift. I’m a non-techy, one fingered typist myself and maybe Kindle set-up isn’t querty, so I was intrigued, not mocking.

    149. Bob Mack says:

      @TJenny,

      I understand pefectly.

    150. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      Its called having your own opinion. Tell me honestly, does that disturb you that people dont agree with you?

    151. dadsarmy says:

      @Colin Alexander
      “Go Nicola!”

      Was a response to your comment above.

      In what quiveringly lunatic universe is the rest of your comment in any way a normal rational or sane response to my posting?

      Don’t bother answering, your drivellingly raving postings have nothing to do with me, or anything I post. Get your programmer to change your code to latch on to someone or something else – or post dots repetitively as the other Colin bot on the Herald does. Presumably because SiU have run out of money to maintain the algorithms.

    152. Head above says:

      @ Al-Stuart

      Pete isn’t standing. So save your £500

    153. naina tal says:

      Tjenny
      Not all of us use keyboards. For example the on screen keyboard on my tablet has the “!” directly below the “l”. Big fat fingers often get the wrong letter. Failing eyesight does the rest! (Hope that was a “!”)

    154. Jaygee says:

      Stu

      This site has been of great importance in the quest for independence and I have gained knowledge from many of the contributions from a very large group of individuals who had common cause in Scottish freedom.Unfortunately the recent anti SNP contributions have soured the exchanges discussing your insight to to media bias.
      The SNP is the only vehicle able to get us there and the constant sniping at Nicola Sturgeon is very similar to the campaign against Mr Salmond when people could not give a good reason as to why they disliked him .
      Please try to get this site back to the number one target of independence. The personality arguments can take place if we gain freedom.

    155. Bob Mack says:

      @Jatgee,

      You are actual!y implying that SNP suuporters, not members shouldnt think for themselves here. Thats a very dangerous road to go down.

      I remember Alex Salmond was expelled from the SNP for thinking for himself.

      These next few days will tell the story of where the SNP want to be rdgarding Indy.

      Further to this ,would it not be better to focus on those individuals who are actually members but are destroying the party from inside under the cloak of SNP membership.

      Stu never has been about the SNP. He is about Indy. I was a member till I found that you were broadly sudelined for questioning party policy. Not for me.I like to question ludicrous ideas like GRA Im afraid. We d idnt see eye to eye.

    156. Cubby says:

      Just plain malice.

    157. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      One of your more sweeping statements, and there have been many to choose from

    158. manandboy says:

      Chile and England seem to have problems in common.

      Chile on edge as worst unrest in three decades claims 11 lives. Fuelled by deep-rooted disillusionment at how millions of citizens have been frozen out of the country’s economic rise.

      http://archive.is/f5uzi

      More clashes likely after Piñera expands state of emergency following ‘weekend of rage’

      Chile protests rage despite president’s retreat over subway fare rise – video report
      Latin America’s most prosperous country is braced for fresh upheaval after Chile’s president expanded a state of emergency beyond the capital and the death toll from three days of violence rose to 11.

      The crisis began early last week as a youth revolt against a 3% increase in metro fares that the government was subsequently forced to scrap.

      As outrage over those measures grew, student protesters stormed metro stations as part of a fare-dodging movement designed to pressure the government. On Friday, demonstrators torched at least a dozen stations, causing an estimated $300m (£230m) of damage.

      But Paula Rivas, the president of the Metro Workers’ Union in the capital, Santiago, said the fare hike was not the driving force behind the mutiny.

      “It’s the low pensions, the privatisation of water, the rise in electricity prices, the healthcare system, the need for equal education rights,” she said. “The metro fare was just the trigger, it is symbolic. It made people say, ‘enough’. We will not be silenced.”

      Observers and protesters say the rebellion – the worst unrest Chile has faced since the dying days of Augusto Pinochet’s dictatorship three decades ago – is fuelled by deep-rooted disillusionment at how millions of citizens have been frozen out of the country’s economic rise.

      “This isn’t because of the metro price – it is because the system is squeezing us like lemons,” said Bessy Gallardo Prado, a 34-year-old law student who has joined the protests.

      “This is happening because of decades of injustice, abuse, and inequality. There is no social security in this country. People earn little and work a lot and wages are not enough to make ends meet.”

      Navia, who is based in the Chilean capital, said unlike in other Latin American countries, public anger was not the product of worsening living conditions.

      “Living conditions are in fact improving. Poverty levels are going down … Chile has been growing for most of the past decade,” he said. “The problem is that people perceive that wealth and opportunity are not evenly distributed. There isn’t a level playing-field.

      “They feel like they are at the gates of the promised land. And they see all the elites inside having fun and enjoying the benefits of economic development – and they are not being let in.”

      The Santiago mayor, Karla Rubilar, struck a conciliatory tone on Monday, calling for dialogue between authorities and demonstrators.

      “We want the word of the day to be ‘rebuilding’ – rebuilding trust. Because we know it has been lost. Not during this government, but over many years,” she told reporters.

      ‘This conflicted place made me who I am’: Santiago, Chile – a cartoon
      Read more
      But many blame Piñera, who was elected in 2017 and is one of Chile’s richest men, for inflaming the situation with his uncompromising and inept response.

      As Santiago descended into chaos last Friday and the state of emergency was declared, the president was photographed dining with his family at an upmarket restaurant. “Piñera eats pizza as Santiago burns,” one critic tweeted.

      Advertisement

      On Sunday night he caused further fury with a hardline address in which he claimed the country was “at war” with “evil” delinquents who were bent on causing chaos and destruction.

      Navia said: “It was reminiscent of George W Bush … It is a provocation. When you tell protesters you are at war with them, they will go out and provoke you.”

      He said Piñera’s administration appeared to believe the declaration of a state of emergency would extinguish the uprising – but many protesters were defying the government’s curfew.

    159. TJenny says:

      naina tal – thank you – that seems to explain it. 🙂

    160. Mist001 says:

      Why is the SNP the only vehicle to get Scotland to independence? I’m asking because virtually everything I read elsewhere says that independence is down to the will of the Scottish people, with no mention of the SNP.

      So, what one is then? SNP or will of the Scottish people that will take us to independence?

      This is a pro-independence board and right now, it seems that I’m watching Sturgeon and the SNP fuck up on an almost daily basis and they deserve all the criticism that they’re getting.

      My personal feeling is that this board isn’t the place to discuss brit nats, which is why I never mention or criticise them on here. It’s really that simple. Discussing brit nats would take this board way off track and clog it up with constant rants and whines. Like I say, that’s only my personal feeling about it.

      The Rev posts compelling, rational ideas and thoughts about achieving independence and to see them ignored by the SNP would I imagine, be incredibly frustrating so it’s no great surprise that they attract much criticism.

      I have no doubts whatsoever that at least some of the higher echelons of the SNP read this board but my feeling is that they think they’re above this ‘rabble’ and wouldn’t take political advice from here, no matter how good it was. It seems sometimes that if a good strategy or idea is presented here, the very next day, the SNP will do the exact opposite and I don’t think that’s coincidental. I think it’s intentional because they believe they’re too good to be taking political advice from here.

    161. Colin Alexander says:

      In 20-14 we had a Section thirty.
      Damn the British – they went and did the dirty.
      We had Stu’s Blue Book; we knew the facts all right.
      We scared the Empire British; we gave them all a fright.

      Well, We cast our votes and Queen Betty was a purrin.
      We cast our votes and threw it all away.
      We cast our votes
      hopin for our freedom,
      what we got was British treachery.

      Well, We look to the future, and what do we see?
      we want our freedom, for Scotland to be free
      We have the Scottish Party: we have the SNP
      the talk is devolution, they’re no talkin sovereingtee

      Well, We cast our votes and Queen Betty was a purrin.
      We cast our votes and threw it all away.
      We cast our votes
      hopin for our freedom,
      what we got was British treachery.

      Now wee Nicla
      leader SNP,
      And Ian Blackford: he’s a Commons MP.
      They wanna stop Brexit, they both talk so well.
      But it’s all bluff and bluster the British can tell.

      Well, We cast our votes and Queen Betty was a purrin.
      We cast our votes and threw it all away.
      We cast our votes
      hopin for our freedom,
      what we got was British treachery.

      Well, they got 56, to fight the Vow treacheree
      Holdin their feet to that democratic fire.
      They lost a third playing the Empire’s game
      and for Scotland’s freedom they’ve been absolutely dire.

      Well, We cast our votes and Queen Betty was a purrin.
      We cast our votes and threw it all away.
      We cast our votes
      hopin for our freedom,
      what we got was British treachery.

      Now, in Scotland we’ve really had enough,
      Wings’ Stu Campbell, he’s really talkin tough.
      We want our freedom, we want our sovereigntee.
      Scotland is sovereign, we’re not a colonee. You listening SNP?

      Well, We cast our votes and Queen Betty was a purrin.
      We cast our votes and threw it all away.
      We cast our votes
      hopin for our freedom,
      what we got was British treachery.

      New lyrics for an old song. Anyone guess the tune?

    162. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      Rule Brittania ?

    163. defo says:

      I think it must be the new £/word initiative
      😉

    164. TJenny says:

      Colin – Rock Island Line?

    165. Colin Alexander says:

      T Jenny

      Nope. Close though.

    166. Cubby says:

      The SNP would be bonkers if they took advice from Mist001. The person who said some of the senior SNP politicians e.g. J Cherry were ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

    167. TJenny says:

      Colin – Battle of New Orleans?

    168. Colin Alexander says:

      TJenny

      Correct. Well done.

    169. Cubby says:

      Yes – just plain malice.

    170. Mist001 says:

      My only advice to the SNP would be to stop ignoring your core business, which is Scottish independence.

      You can guarantee that they’ll ignore that piece of advice!

    171. Colin Alexander says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSTKE85yXl4

      Battle of New Orleans

    172. TJenny says:

      Colin – Hooray! Now having a wee dance round the room. 😉

    173. Colin Alexander says:

      On that happy note of dancing roon the room, I’ll bid youse all nite nite.

    174. TJenny says:

      G’night Colin and thanks for the reworked lyrics.

    175. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Hi Mist001.

      You made a pretty much perfect post. Thank you for helping myself and those on here who actually read the site owner’s analysis and research.

      Having to repeatedly deal with blinkered, paranoid party loyalists who don’t play well with others is a waste of valuable resources and mirrors the problems dealing with BritNat trolls elsewhere.

      I was going to reply to one of the regulars who decided to vent by calling people like me “dumb”. The sin? Questioning the governing party and how the SNP policy of SAVING ENGLAND FROM BREXIT should be suppressed. I am apparently upsetting his morale.

      I ain’t this person’s comfort blanket. The fire in my soul is caused by the lethal Labour and Dickensian Tory policy of killing the disabled…

      http://www.calumslist.org

      There, is that enough BritNat criticism quota to soothe the sad feelings of the passive-aggressive persons hereabouts?

      We are almost beyond party politics here, as Tony Blair’s Labour creep, James Purnell MP released the four horsemen of the disabled killing apocalypse… ATOS + MAXIMUS + CR@PITA + DWP., These are the ones I want to see locked up. Followed by the Minister for Manslaughter Iain Duncan-Smith.

      I had THOUGHT the SNP were walking the walk after they talked the talk: “Our SNP policy is to treat disabled people with respect” said Jeane Freeman MSP.

      The SNP ARE ABSOLUTELY HONOURABLE on that count. The SNP are making a difference and I can say without a doubt the SNP are saving lives as I spend time in that NGO charity advice sector.

      BUT…

      …and there is often a BIG but.

      If the SNP fcuk up this ONE chance at securing a Section 30 Order, the nice, well meaning Ian Blackford will have bl00d splatter on him from those in Scotland whom have the ESA + PIP dreaded brown envelope syndrome and are destined to go the way of Paul Reekie (please look up on the internet what happened to Paul).

      If the SNP bu66er up this chance they have in CONTROLLING THE LEVERS OF POWER THIS NEXT WEEK OR SO, the SNP will condemn Scotland to at least FIVE years of Boris Johnson and far right Duncan-Smith deathly policy imposed on it.

      For those that whine about posters here questioning the SNP and calling myself and others tractors and stooges and dumb and idiots, I am fcuking raging at you. My motivation is due to watching friends dying by policies from Labour and Tory zealots. So get your head out of your er5es, STOP imaging MI5 plants and get real.

      I am NOT anti-SNP.

      I am angry-with-the-SNP.

      There is a difference. Please comprehend this and the motivation this bereft soul has narrated above. Thank you.

      ————

      Mist001 said it best…


      The Rev posts compelling, rational ideas and thoughts about achieving independence and to see them ignored by the SNP would I imagine, be incredibly frustrating so it’s no great surprise that they attract much criticism.

      I have no doubts whatsoever that at least some of the higher echelons of the SNP read this board but my feeling is that they think they’re above this ‘rabble’ and wouldn’t take political advice from here, no matter how good it was. It seems sometimes that if a good strategy or idea is presented here, the very next day, the SNP will do the exact opposite and I don’t think that’s coincidental. I think it’s intentional because they believe they’re too good to be taking political advice from here.

    176. Ghillie says:

      Without Nana’s links at day break this site ends up sawing sawdust.

    177. Breeks says:

      Ghillie says:
      22 October, 2019 at 7:05 am
      Without Nana’s links at day break this site ends up sawing sawdust.

      It would be great to see Nana’s links back here.

      It would be great to see it flourishing on another site.

      It would be great to see TartanPigsy’s flags flying off the shelf, IndependenceLive being paid for, and half a million signatures on the YES petition.

      It’s almost as if something oppressive and is stifling the very life of the YES community, leaving it malnourished for momentum and emaciated as a result, and stunting every new flicker of initiative.

      Hmmmm…. can think what that might be. I mean, the SNP said everything was hunky dory and going fine at their conference. So there’s more of the same strategy on its way….

      But courage mon braves…

      Step forward Joanna Cherry QC… “It’s time Scotland’s Constitutional position ….. was brought to the fore…”

      https://mobile.twitter.com/theSNP/status/1186308901475704832

      There’s a democratic mandate for an Independence Referendum. Yes there is Joanna, but there’s also a sovereign democratic mandate stay in EU which cannot be overruled by colonial oppression from Westminster and the unlawful usurpation of sovereignty.

      Plan A MUST be a watertight Constitutional Backstop. Scotland will not be removed from Europe.
      Plan B is to use the safe harbour provided by Plan A to facilite Scotland’s transition into an Independent Sovereign Nation which has ended the political Treaty which formed the U.K., and transitioned into a member state in Europe. That is the time and place for discussion and referendum, AFTER we are safe behind sovereign ramparts of Scottish Constitution.

      I think it is folly to rely on the fickleness of Labour and dishonesty of the Lib Dem’s to create this safe harbour and forestall Brexit from happening. We are constitutionally stronger by ourselves, we have the intractability of Scots Law and our Sovereign Constitution behind us, we have an emphatic Popular majority to throw out Scotland’s unlawful Brexit, and personally, I believe it is utterly false that the International Community would not recognise the emancipation of Scotland from the UK. It is my belief they would recognise Scotland’s escape as a parachute seen emerging from a WW2 bomber shot down in flames.

      We must have the courage to be independent in strategy if we want to be independent as a Nation.

      Backstop! Backstop! Backstop! Come on Joanna Cherry!

    178. Heart of Galloway says:

      Breeks@8.02pm

      I asked you (twice) some time ago if you could explain the process by which a “Scottish constitutional backstop” could a) be achieved and b) honoured by the Johnson junta.

      I suggested three courts could be involved, successively – the CoS, the SC and the ECJ.

      I also suggested some of the issues which could arise during that process and the likely BritGov reaction to it.

      But it’s not my job to put flesh on the bones – it’s yours. I am genuinely interested and am NOT knocking the tactic per se.

    179. galamcennalath says:

      Oh FFS!!!

      Johnson’s EU Withdrawal Agreement Bill has a transition period ending at the end of of 2020.

      The Bill has no provisions for what will happen if a Trade Deal isn’t finalised in this period. (Remember, trade deals normally take many years to formulate), MPs will have no say in what happens then. Without a trade deal, the UK will crash out at the end of the transition period in a ‘no deal’ situation.

      Every thing we see right now will probably be repeated all over again in 15months time. This time it’s about a Withdrawal Agreement, next it will be a rerun on a Trade Agreement.

      So, presumably someone with try to put an amendment in to ensure parliament retains control. And of course, again, the far right loony Brexiteers won’t want that.

      Déjà Vu, again.

    180. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Ghillie @7:05

      Dont visit until midday then.

      That way you dont get bored and we dont need to read your negative comments.

      It’s called a Win/Win

    181. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Apologies, daybreak, not midday

    182. Jomry says:

      O/T. Have just read Craig Murray’s account of Julian Assange’s appearance at the magistrate’sm court yesterday in connection with extradition hearings https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/10/assange-case/

      An absolutely gut-wrenching account of the conditions under which Assange is being kept and a scathing indictment of the “justice” he is being subjected to.
      Not a mention of any of this in MSM or BBC, though they are full of the sympathy which must be accorded to Harry and Megan for the dire treatment they receive from tabloids.

      An illustration of the power of the state on both sides of the Atlantic to not only crush dissent through the court system and the venality of magistrates, but also to ensure through complicit MSM that these things are hidden from sight.

      Too many supporters of Assange turned up so extradition hearings will be moved to Belmarsh to restrict public attendance to 6 seats. Absolutely cynical manipulation – in plain sight if any competent “lournalist” could be bothered to report it.

    183. Abulhaq says:

      Waiting for Scottish independence is akin to waiting for Godot.
      Many existential references to the eponymous character who never actually appears.
      [When Estragon decides to leave, Vladimir reminds him that they must stay and wait for the thematically reiterative Godot—Unfortunately, the pair cannot agree on where or when they are expected to meet with Godot. They only know to wait at a tree, and there is indeed a leafless one nearby.] from Wiki.
      Happy Days!!!!

    184. Shug says:

      It is interesting watching NI unionists clinking to a London system that has, in their eyes betrayed them and thrown them under a bus
      I wonder how Scottish unionists are reacting to the great British betrayal

    185. Bob Mack says:

      @Shug,

      Second time in a hundred years the Tories have betrayed the Unionists.They never learn. Tories will be wiped out in Scotland due to loyalties and ties many Scots have with Ulster. Who will thdy then vote for? The same leople whk switched from various partys to Tory to protect th e Union.

      At least so theY thought. They msy not now even vote at all in protest.
      All to play for yet

    186. Shug says:

      I do hope the OO heads to London with their lovely bands and March up and down downing St, pawsing as they outside no 10
      Perhaps like I indyref1 in 2014 they could beat up a few foreign types
      I am sure the polis will be happy to stand back like they did in glasgow

    187. Shug says:

      My typing is poor at this time of day

    188. Shug says:

      Just looking at the herald comments and it full of unionist drivel. Does the
      Herald have a direct link to to 77 Brigade
      The commonality of the tone is really surprising

    189. mr thms says:

      I heard on Newsnight a commentator say the Withdrawal Agreement Bill will bring back during the ‘transitional arrangement’ the Treaty of Brussels (also known as the EU Communities Act 1972) which is repealed on Brexit Day by Section 1 of the EU Withdrawal Act 2018?

      So if the WA is passed by parliament, aspects from both Acts/Treaties will run together during the transitional arrangement?

      Makes this article a keeper!

      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/05/02/brexit-is-a-form-of-secession/

      “Brexit is a form of secession – Scotland and Northern Ireland might soon follow”

    190. Bob Mack says:

      @Shug,

      The Herald probably is the 77th Brigade.

      I can actually understand posters who feel frustration but they almost certainly do not work for any government agency.

      Such concerns arise in every political party and its how you deal with themgbe Many posters have left Wings because they cant handle the challenges the Rev gives them zbout exzctly tbis.

      Its Scotlands loss if Wings falls. Having a readership with no staying poower is never helpful to any cause.

      They will drift to places where they find “comfort” and a like view from the author. It will end badly.

      They damage a cause they say tbey will fight for, and yet at the first sign of adversity to their view and what they believe the blogs view should be they flee.

      Ill fight on thank you regardless of how my view is challenged.

      I bel ieve them hyocrites. Wanting a free independent Scotland where everyone can have their voice heard, .

      Empty rhetoric as demonstrated by the number who have run away from exactly that and left Wings to hear a more comforting tone .

    191. Iain mhor says:

      @Gordon Keane 9:52pm

      There begins your journey into a fascinating history, pivotal questions and the ‘auld argument’ over who or what, if anything, was’extinguished’.
      The UK is a big kiddy-oan, everything is just invented as they go along. Like the continuing use by the UK of ex post-facto law, because ‘Parliamentary Sovereignty’ under the ‘Crown’ by Divine Right.
      So yes, a continuation of the old English Parliament, which has never been denied. On the contrary, it has been stated severally that, the Parliament of England continued, it absorbed the Scottish Parliament, Scotland was ‘extinguished’ and the English Parliament was restyled ‘The UK of GB etc..’

      More recently, you could have read of the Mundell, stating that very thing. However, like the entire edifice of the ‘UK of GB etc’ it’s just invented, they have no idea and neither does anyone else – everyone has very strong opinions and interpretations, yes – but the actual scenario has never been properly established.
      You may read of such as Wade, Hope, Dicey, Crawford, Boyle, Bogdanor, Drummond & Wright, Tierney and many other renowned legal and constitutional philosophers (and Adam Tomkins) pontificating on the constitution of the UK and its ‘Sovereignty’. They all have very didactic and strong opinions (n.b – Opinions)

      Recent fartings from the ‘independent’ Scottish Judiciary has added to the constitutional belly rumbling of these past 300 odd years. A direct attack on the age old premise of Parliamentary Sovereignty (that “Alien Device”) and an attack on the “unwritten” UK constitution. Though as our own Mr Peffers opined; there is a written UK constitution, it is that which ‘constituted’ the UK (The Treaty & Acts of Union)
      The edifice of the UK, it’s parliament and constitution, has come under numerous blows, but always recovered by re-interpreting reality.
      In the absence of ‘De-jure’ legal certainty, we must operate with what is actually ocurring ‘de-facto’ – and what is actually ocurring, is just as you observe – Westminster acts as the old English Parliament.

    192. Bobp says:

      Shug 9.54am. The tourists would probably think it was just another quaint brit “tradition”.

    193. ben madigan says:

      @ Shug who said “It is interesting watching NI unionists clinking to a London system that has, in their eyes betrayed them and thrown them under a bus”

      Here’s a view on what happened in NI yesterday as abortion and same sex marriage were finally legalized by Westminster

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/10/21/death-of-orange-ulster/

    194. RobertTheTruth says:

      The social side of this site is OFF TOPIC. Why those who berate the tone or content on the main site don’t use it is up to them. This is the area where difficult issues are discussed and differing opinions should be allowed to freely aired.

      Those who would stifle that need to take their anxieties elsewhere. It is as if they are afraid the neighbours, be it the press, Unionists, Mi5/6, 77th, choose your enemy… will hear a family squabble and think badly of them.

      Who gives a damn what they think? So take your blankies and dummies and go sing Kumbaya and stick charms on your wish tree.

      You are not up to the battle ahead and you are why we lost the last time.

    195. ScotsRenewables says:

      One last appeal to reason from me.

      Whatever people post on here, all of us will vote for independence when the time comes to be counted.

      But that will not matter if we can’t take a sizeable portion of previous ‘No’s with us.

      I used to point the wavering to Wings. I cannot do that now.

      Is that progress?

    196. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack back posting about people running away when he posted recently about getting commission for the number of people he has driven off Wings. Methinks Bob speaks with forked tongue. That is an evidence based statement unlike some of the crap that is posted. No doubt Bob will retreat into I was only joking or it was only satire. No it wasn’t. The hypocrite is Bob Mack.

      Bob Mack wants only the pure 100% supporters of the site owner posting on Wings because he can’t handle losing any sensible debate and turns to personal abuse or just total nonsense comments to deflect.

      My advice to Bob Mack would be to give your knuckles a rest for a while, review your approach and come back refreshed with perhaps a less aggressive stance to anyone who challenges your point of view.

    197. Effijy says:

      Laugh at the hypocrisy of the DUP.

      They must must have everything exactly to same as their English Masters.
      Loyal forever or at least while the mega money subsidies and bribes are flowing.

      Now that they have the same abortion and gay marriage laws as England the are
      Appalled and insist they should be different?

      They also have a £Billion scam for burning fuel pellets that doesn’t apply else where.
      Why don’t they complain about that.

      They are heating empty sheds as they buy the pellets for pennies and get pounds
      For each bag burned in their boilers.

      One of the DUP leaders brothers had 9 boilers burning night and day but heating fresh air in sheds.

      No wonder they can spend fortunes on Toy Soldier Uniforms for the back to the future 1690 walk.

    198. mike cassidy says:

      Iain Mhor 10.32

      Without any traditional place in the UK constitution, there is no established means of moving from a referendum result to enactment. Referendums are advisory unless parliament provides differently. …….

      This creates another difficulty when it comes to regulating good conduct of the referendum. There is no easy way to do this. For in the event of misconduct in a referendum, there is no obvious way to have a legally non-binding (but politically extremely important) result set aside

      http://archive.is/1nLfS

    199. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      You typify my point. Thank you very much.

      Dont be like Cubby. Think for yourself.

    200. ScotsRenewables says:

      The fact that the most vociferous posters currently surfing the new Wings wave of neo-whatever have been around for a long time guarantees nothing about their intentions.

      Just sayin’

    201. Bob Mack says:

      @Scotsrenewables,

      Question

      Do you think that previous No voters will be persuaded by being hounded by Wingers for not being loyal to the SNP ?

      They are not exactly an inclusive bunch, are they ?

    202. Bob Mack says:

      @Scotsrenewables,

      Neo Wingers?

      Speaks the guy who is intolerant of any view but his own.

    203. Shug says:

      Stu has a point about the snp doing a deal to let brexit through but there are a few concerns
      SNP would be seen as unprincipled and the bbc would magnify this
      You could not trust boris to fetch a pint of milk Never mind deliver a promise
      Tanking the English economy does not help us
      I too have concerns but we must stick to the high ground.
      If the salmons case gets thrown out in nov and the indyref2 starts either because Hollywood arranges it or Westminster agrees to it (unlikely) I know, I think we have a result

    204. Bob Mack says:

      @Shug,

      I think you raise valid points re the ecomomics side of separation and preserving our own status.

      Where we probably disagree is the morality issue. We owe them nothing. They have been picking our pockets for ovef 300 years whilst we play by the rules and look the other way.

    205. manandboy says:

      THE BIGGEST THING IN SCOTTISH POLITICS IN 2019

      TBTISPIT is Stu’s idea for a second Independence Party. The reason? Because it is a direct and very real threat to the hopes of Westminster and the British Establishment to secure Scotland politically in the Union.

      The English Ruling Class simply could not sit idly bye and ignore such a real danger to their Cash Cow, supplying free oil, free gas, free electricity, free fishing, free water & free farming. And somewhere to go hunting, shooting and fishing on free land.

      Remember, if Scotland goes independent, England goes bankrupt.

      And so the English Establishment’s propaganda machine has an urgent job to do. To take down Wings over Scotland, or better still, just remove its flight feathers and prevent him from flying, by crippling his support and cutting his funding, through divide and conquer tactics.

      That’s what I see happening.

      I’ll away back to my soup making.

    206. Bob Mack says:

      They wil! give us a referendum? Look at that prospect in view of a posting on Stus twitter feed, and remember what state the UK is going to be in post Brexit.

      It states. Scotland with 8% of the UK population contributes over 30% of Uks GDP.

      And you think they will give us a referendum? Not a hope in hell.

    207. ScotsRenewables says:

      manandboy
      the English Establishment’s propaganda machine has an urgent job to do. To take down Wings over Scotland, or better still, just remove its flight feathers and prevent him from flying, by crippling his support and cutting his funding, through divide and conquer tactics.


      That’s what I see happening as well, but it looks as though such concerns may be punishable by banishment. Stu obviously does NOT believe this is happening, and I suspect that dissent will not be tolerated for much longer.

      A lot of us are worried about what seems to be happening to Wings. Have we always been just useful idiots?

    208. Capella says:

      @ ScotsRenewables – there is quite a long list of ex wingers now. Some of them post on other blogs, some have fallen silent. It is a great shame and I miss their input. But, as with my SNP membership, I’m still hanging on here by the fingernails in the hope that sanity will be restored soon.

      @ manandboy – I’m persuaded that a second YES party to stand in the Regional vote is a good idea. Gavin’s figures were persuasive, all things being equal. But all things are rarely equal.

      Interesting to see the Alex Salmond hearing being brought forward to November 21st when the trial is scheduled for end January. Is that a good or a bad thing? Do the PTB anticipate an early election?

      Also, a rumour has spread that Stu intends to stand against Pete Wishart at a GE. I read WoS blog and twitter every day but somehow I have missed Stu’s announcement of this plan. So I wonder where it has come from?

      All things are very far from equal in this union.

    209. Bob Mack says:

      @Capella,

      Stu standing against Wishart was only a suggestion by a contributor from that area. Never happen of course as Stu is only interested in list seats to rattle the Unionists.

      Rumour suddenly becomes truth as you know.

      I suppose I didnt help by volunteering to contribute to his election fees. Ah well.

    210. ScotsRenewables says:

      Bob Mack says:
      22 October, 2019 at 12:24 pm
      And you think they will give us a referendum? Not a hope in hell.

      Strange, I seem to remember them doing so before – when oil was at its peak as well.

      We have weeks at most to wait before a request/demand is made for a Section 30. Let us wait and see if:

      a) It is made
      b) It is refused
      c) If it is refused, what the SNP’s response is

      If a) and b) happen and the SNP have no valid response, THEN is the time to start all this wailing and gnashing of teeth.

      THEN we start the Wings party or devise some other response that might be effective – though for the life of me I cannot see what other than a legal challenge could ever succeed. All the forms of UDI spouted on here will fall at the first hurdle – international acceptance.

      The thing is, ‘Bob Mack’, alleged long time supporter of independence, it seems very strange and premature to me that this uproar is happening just as we seem – to most of us long-time observers of the scene – to be getting closer than ever.

      Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book. Whether willing or unwilling, you appear to be seeking to alienate me and a huge contingent of Wingers and ex-Wingers who disagree with you. You see an opportunity, a mood shift you can exploit to ramp up the anti-SNP rhetoric at a time when it will do most damage.

      You and your small coterie of supporters on here may be genuine in your views; I can’t tell whether what is going on here is infiltration by the British state or just that age-old inbuilt Scottish tendency to self-harm and self-destruct when victory is in sight.

      What I DO know, to turn the Unionist mantra back on itself, is that NOW IS NOT THE TIME

      In a few short weeks the independence landscape will look very different. There will be certainty where there is doubt, and you will be left with egg on your face. I hope that then you will have the good grace and common sense to devote your energies to useful campaigning alongside the SNP and all the other sectors of this wonderful diverse movement of ours.

      (And if it turns out you are right and the SNP give in without a fight I will be right behind you and Stu in whatever you suggest next . . . but I do not think this will be necessary)

    211. Capella says:

      @ Bob Mack – indeed. Unfortunately it adds to the meme that Stu is anti SNP.

      I have wondered if the infiltration of Wokus Dei into the SNP and, as a result, Stu’s critical articles are somehow the work of the 77th Brigade. If so, you have to admire their skill. The end result will be to demotivate SNP voters.

      Nevertheless, it is up to the leadership to deal with this and neutralise it asap.
      Still waiting.

    212. Bob Mack says:

      @Scotsrenewables,

      1692763.

      That was my SNP membership number.

      I could have done much more damage by remaining and destroying the party from inside had that been my goal.

      I wouldnt do that.

      Many have and are stil! doing it by turning the SNP I knew into something quite quite different.

      If you cant fight them from the inside, you must do it from outside.

      How do you fight the troublemakers without having a go at the party who gave them free rein. I dont know.

    213. Republicofscotland says:

      So it looks like the SNP are going to sit back and let a second EU ref materialise, and more than likely back it if the vote comes.

      In the meantime Cherry and Sturgeon are focused on goading Johnson et al into a GE, of which its more than likely won’t happen anytime soon.

      If point one comes to fruition and we remain in the EU, independence is very unlikely to happen, we’d still be in the EU and all the horrible reasons for leaving would then be used against us.

      Point two, Sturgeon is hoping for a quick GE because her stock is high at the moment in Scotland. However if point one does materialise will her stock still be as high come the Scottish elections on May 2021, if we’re still in the union?

      No wonder they fitted up Alex Salmond he at least was intent on leaving the union, hurry back Alex.

    214. dadsarmy says:

      It states. Scotland with 8% of the UK population contributes over 30% of Uks GDP.

      The gov.scot document referenced on that ridiculously inaccurate tweet says nothing of the sort, nor could it. Scotland’s onshore GDP is around the same as our population proportion of the UK – 8%. Our GDP per capita is therefore also roughly the same. Include offshore and it’s a little more, but not even as much at the moment as 9%.

      Here’s the document referenced which does NOT say anything remotely like “over 30% of Uks GDP”.

      https://www.gov.scot/publications/state-economy-february-2019/pages/3/

      It’s uninformed shite like this is destroying Wings.

    215. Rob says:

      Stu at 12.27,

      “No. England will never vote to throw us out. Quite aside from anything else, they’d find it much more amusing to keep us in and mistreat us.”

      I rather agree there – even if “throwing out” were an option. What I’d imagine is more along the lines of “Make up your minds, free with us, or disloyal with them? Have your Section 30 and decide who your friends are.”

      None of it very cool or logical, just an emotional spasm the MSM would love.

    216. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      I accept your point. Could England though stil! have the same financial borrowings and lending markets with a 9% drop in GDP from Scotland as sel! as the predicted 10% fall in GDP brought abouf by Brexit?

      It al! adds up.

      Scottish GDP as far as I know relies on GERs, and I certainly dont believe them.

    217. ahundredthidiot says:

      scotsrenewables @12:44

      That is not turning unionist mantra back on itself – that’s repeating it.

      Good job the the Rev has tolerance for the odd unionist, I would’ve booted you off days ago.

    218. ScotsRenewables says:


      Republicofscotland says:
      22 October, 2019 at 1:00 pm
      If point one comes to fruition and we remain in the EU, independence is very unlikely to happen, we’d still be in the EU and all the horrible reasons for leaving would then be used against us.

      I don’t see it. We still have every reason to leave as Westminster has demonstrated over and over again that there is no place for Scotland in the UK decision-making process.

      You could just as idly speculate that leaving the EU will provide massive ammunition for NO in the form of ‘hard border with England’ ‘biggest trading partner’ bollocks.

      OTOH, a second narrow win for LEAVE with Scotland voting 70% REMAIN would provide a massive boost for YES

      As I said, all idle speculation. In the meantime, let’s concentrate on holding the SNP’s feet to the fire for a Section 30 demand very soon and an approppriate and swift response to a refusal if there is one.

      Once that has happened and the SNP have been shown to have feet of clay THEN I will join you in pursuing some other route, but until then I think we should bide our time another few weeks.

    219. ScotsRenewables says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      22 October, 2019 at 1:23 pm
      scotsrenewables @12:44

      Good job the the Rev has tolerance for the odd unionist, I would’ve booted you off days ago.

      So now I am a Unionist?

      Wash your mouth out.

    220. Bob Mack says:

      THE GREAT VOTE BEGINS IN WESTMINSTER.

      This will determine our route of travel.

    221. Colin Alexander says:

      Split? Division? Schism?

      There is none of the above on Wings.

      I can’t see ANY poster having said that we should vote or campaign or turn our backs on independence.

      On the contrary, the most vociferous critics of the SNP are all VERY pro-independence, very pro-Scottish sovereignty.

      The only real division between commenters is over the SNP and tactics.

      My view is that if Scotland ever achieves indy, it will be despite the SNP (under Sturgeon), not because of the SNP. I will no longer vote SNP unless they seek a direct mandate for indy. But:

      I’m still AYE.

      I still say: Dissolve the Union.

    222. Bob Mack says:

      @Scotsrenewables

      You see how it works now ?

      Im pretty sumyselfelf you are kosher.

    223. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      Think about it Bob. Where did that piece of disinformation come from, and I’m not neccessarily talking about the tweeter of it. Where did he get it from?

      To put it another way, who is pissing themselves with laughter seeing sich a blatantly WRONG and INCOMPETENT piece of disinformation, being spread by Independence supporters who thereby totally discredit their believeablity?

      It doesn’t matter WHO is the “agent”, just examine every piece of so-called info, check its supposed source, and see if it makes any sense.

      Scotland with 8% of the population of the UK, clearly can NOT produce over 30% of the UK’s GDP, even with oil and all the gold around Tyndrum. Use our noddles!

    224. manandboy says:

      (theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/oct/22/brexit-boris-johnson-deal-leave-eu-live-news)

      “Nigel Farage has also been on his feet, telling the parliament that the deal reduces the UK to the status of a colony of the EU.” By implication, utterly unacceptable.

      But he doesn’t see, like the rest of the English Ruling Class, that Scotland is treated by England as having the status of a colony of England. Utterly acceptable and desirable to English eyes.

      Oh, Scotland, to see ourselves as we truly are.

    225. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      You paint yourself into a corner unless there is an alternative road to indy. That is currently as we stand ,to vote SNP.

      Another route may open up in the fullness of time, but not for now.

    226. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      I take your point unreservedly

    227. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      I know I know, I shouldn’t labour the point. But with the UK GDP at £2,000 billion, to get over 30% Scotland would need over £600 billion GDP. According to the stats, our GDP is actually around £180 billion including offshore (I couldn’t bother looking it up for the exact figure.).

      So to be over 30%, someone would have to invent anouther £420 billion of GDP – 250% more than our actuals.

      Ah but, someone will say, there’s the oil, extra regio, look at Norway …

      NO NO NO

      https://www.ogauthority.co.uk/news-publications/news/2019/uk-oil-and-gas-production-rises-to-17-million-barrels-per-day-in-2018/

      Look at the amount of oil produced in 1 year – 1.7 million BoE per day average = 620 BoE @ £50 per barrel = £31 billion, and that’s the absolute maximum it adds to our GDP. So where the feck is the other £390 billion to come from, not even bothering to consider that the £180 billion of our announced GDP already INCLUDES offshore GDP?

      There’s so much shite going around and it makes us look silly at best, total fecking imbecilic liars at worst.

    228. dadsarmy says:

      Just in case anyone says “Ah but the URL says 17 million”, here’s a quote from that page:

      UK oil and gas production rises to 1.7 million barrels per day in 2018“.

    229. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsar.y,

      Where is the figure for gas ? Separate from oil. Handy to know.

    230. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.Thanks Jomry for your Craig Murray link at 9:11 further up this thread.

      I was deeply troubled reading Mr Murray’s account of the treatment of Julian Assange of whom I know very little.

      Independence for Scotland is my first priority but what is currently happening in a London Court is deeply troubling,to put it mildly.

      ‘Assange in Court’:
      https://tinyurl.com/yybmjqj3

    231. Republicofscotland says:

      “I don’t see it. We still have every reason to leave as Westminster has demonstrated over and over again that there is no place for Scotland in the UK decision-making process.”

      Turkeys dont vote for Xmas, and I mean by that EU citizens would vote no if that scenario unfolded, why would they vote to leave the EU?

      Also in the first indyref 51% of Scots did vote yes when the figures were broken down I think. Again those wishing to remain in the EU (EU citizens who vote no in 2014) and possibly Scots who lent their vote to the SNP over Brexit would probably have second thoughts.

      I’m hoping Johnson’s deal gets through and we leave on the 31st as planned. However even then with a GE and whatever else is in the process to be resolved would there be enough time to hold a second indyref next year?

      If not it would need to fall late in 2021 after the Scottish elections.

    232. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      Probably in that report or on the ogauthority website somewhere. That figure is the combined oil and gas BoE, and though Scotland’s percentage of oil is around mid 90s in %, in gas it’s quite a lot less.

    233. Terry callachan says:

      Scottishrenewables…1225 today…

      I’m sure we all wonder at times if what we support is treating us as useful idiots but look at what goes on in any political arena, Westminster, Holyrood , elsewhere across the world , whenever you have differing points of view you will have trust and betrayal honesty and dishonesty rationality and fantasy .

      Rewind back every time something annoys you

      SNP is the only political party that can get us Scottish independence at present , I think they will too.

      All Scottish independence supporters have to get under one banner and support the SNP who are the only political party who can get us Scottish independence right now .

      Avoid SNP baad avoid attacking SNP focus on the one common cause.

    234. Joe says:

      @ Dadsarmy

      Lefties dont do numbers as a general rule. Thats why so many of them think you can have uncontrolled immigration, a welfare state and subsidized healthcare all at the same time and not collapse a country(to the benefit of big business) Point such facts out and you are just a filthy tory, dontchaknow?

    235. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      The SNP have promised delivery of indyref2 and keeping Scotland in the EU. The 2016 Holyrood indyref mandate is already there. If there is GE 2019 /2020 it won’t change that mandate.

      So, if the Ms Sturgeon fans are right, we’ll have indyref2, YES will win, the SNP will declare Scotland indy and we’ll all live happy ever after. I hope they are right and I am wrong.

      So, there is no need for me to vote SNP for WM. I no longer support the SNP under Sturgeon’s leadership. There have been too many strategic mistakes and inaction on independence, in my opinion.

      If there’s a GE, I hope the SNP take a drubbing by YES voters abstaining or voting alternative pro-indy parties, in the hope Ms Sturgeon gets the sack as leader and is replaced by Joanna Cherry whom I believe is not obsessed with s30 British indyref.

      My expectation is that the SNP would then return to: winning an election is a democratic basis for asserting Scottish sovereignty in unilaterally declaring the 1707 parliamentary union dissolved: sovereignty retained in Edinburgh, with a Scotland run referendum on full economic and political independence following soon after.

    236. Mist001 says:

      @ Colin Alexander

      “The SNP have promised delivery of indyref2 and keeping Scotland in the EU.”

      The SNP can’t promise that because an independent Scotland will be out of the EU until such time as it applies and is accepted to become a member state.

      So, there’s been a mix up in communication somewhere.

    237. Shug says:

      @bob mack
      Once we get established I would have no hesitation but until then softly slofty catchee monkey

    238. ScotsRenewables says:

      I spoke to my sister in law just before she went off to conference. I asked her about the apparent lack of a PlanB.

      Her reply, essentially, was ‘of course there is a PlanB, but why on earth would we tell anyone after what happened last time?’

      I am certain there is a Plan B and a Plan C. Plan B is almost certainly legal action if a S30 is refused, and Plan C is probably using an election as a proxy referendum . . . but Plan A is still the simplest, the least open to argument.

      The much beloved Plan C, a return to a WM majority being a mandate for indy as it was considered to be prior to 1999, is fraught with obstacles, not the least of which is the need for a majority of MPs AND 50% + 1 of the popular vote. it also requires the party to stand on the single issue of Independence to avoid ambiguity in the result.

      It is a much harder ask of the electorate than a simple bilateral choice in a referendum.

      Plan D, a referendum without an S30, wojld simply be boycotted by the NO side and so would be seen as invalid due to a very low turnout. It is a non-starter IMO.

      So – let’s give the SNP their moment, let Sturgeon ask for an S30 – soon, and with dates. Let her respond swiftly and decisively to any refusal, delay or prevarication. If she fails then I will join the clamour for new leadership, new direction – but she has not failed yet.

    239. galamcennalath says:

      So, Facebook says it’s taking action to counter misinformation and fake news.

      Highly commendable if true.

      However, the implication is that it’s looking at online blogs, and accounts controlled by Russians or Iranian.

      Eh? Someone isn’t keeping up there! In the UK the largest and most effective purveyors of fake news and misleading information lie within the main broadcast and print media! It’s a problem in the mainstream, not just on the fringes.

      Examples? ….

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/

      Ask someone on the street what they understand by the term ‘fake news’ and they are almost certainly IMO going to say new media sources. This shows just how effective the misinformation from the traditional media has been where they have very successfully deflected attention away from their own dodgy activities.

    240. Colin Alexander says:

      Mist001

      Said: “The SNP can’t promise that ( indyref2 and keeping Scotland in the EU) because an independent Scotland will be out of the EU until such time as it applies and is accepted to become a member state”.

      Correct. The SNP have made promises that it’s not within their power to keep.

      IF the UK did stay in the EU as member state in any future indyref campaign, the UK can argue advantage of EU memebership over Scotland’s indy exit from the EU or even threaten to assert a veto over a Scottish state’s membership of the EU or threaten Spain as the proxy veto.

      We’ll be back to: a NO vote keeps Scotland in the EU: a yes vote will mean Scotland out of the EU.

      It will be a repeat of 2014.

    241. Effijy says:

      Sorry for being think but information picked up here suggests:

      The Union is between 2 Equal Sovereign Nations.

      If Scotland won Indy Ref 1 we would be out of the EU but England in.

      If England leaves the EU and Scotland wants to remain, so why is this equal half out of the EU?

      It would only be fair, right and democratic to have Indy ref 2 confirm Scotland’s choice.
      Isn’t this a basic human right upheld by EU law?

    242. Liz g says:

      Effijy @ 3.14
      Well said.
      There is no misunderstanding or misinformation from the SNP/Scottish Government/ Yes Movement….

      The U.K. is the member state and that England,Wales and N. Ireland would be the Continuing State in the EU after Scotland ends the Union has not been tested in Law,and is most likely a matter for negotiation.

      It is not yet clear that Scotland ending the Treaty arrangement with England automatically ended the Treaty arrangement with the EU for either or both Kingdom’s!
      That’s mostly an assumption that has no basis in EU law.
      Only the EU could decide if one or both Kingdom’s were not member’s any longer.
      ( And I’d wager, makin them choose poses nae great concern fur Scotland)
      This is a question that would be answered between the Yes vote and Independence day.

      The SNP have been very careful to NOT confirm that the so called rUK is indeed the “continuing” state!
      There can be no United Kingdom that has only one Kingdom, that’s, a negotiating point that delivers true equality for Scotland.
      Even allowing the Butcher’s Apron as a Brand recognition is in there!!

    243. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…Plan D, a referendum without an S30, would simply be boycotted by the NO side…”

      It is highly debatable whether an S30 is actually required as it’s never been tested in court. SNP only going down S30 route because that’s the precedent from 2014 and one that will keep the EU (and particularly Spain) on-side. The S30 merely puts the outcome beyond dispute. If WM refuses to issue S30 then ScotGov will almost certainly take the matter to court which I don’t think WM might actually wants to happen cuz I think they’re happy with the ‘uncertainty’ over the constitutional question.

      Who knows what the court might decide and that’s the kind of uncertain situations WM likes to avoid. To be honest I cannot see the issue being lost by ScotGov if it ever does go to court and that WM will be compelled by court order to issue S30 and thus, a perfectly legal Referendum and placing the matter beyond dispute.

    244. Breeks says:


      Effijy says:
      22 October, 2019 at 3:14 pm
      Sorry for being think but information picked up here suggests:

      The Union is between 2 Equal Sovereign Nations.

      If Scotland won Indy Ref 1 we would be out of the EU but England in….

      I think that’s highly arguable conjecture, and not necessarily correct. If Independence occurred while the U.K. was still in the EU, both nations, Scotland and England would separate as constitutional equals. Neither would a seceding state, neither would be a Continuer State. IF Scotland was to be expelled, then England too would have to be expelled. I don’t believe that would happen. Expediency would find another way, and set a new precedent as required.

      However, for the Scottish Government to accede to the principle of Scotland’s expulsion back in 2014 bears all the hallmarks of a similar lack of faith in Scotland’s Constitutional integrity which in my opinion has bedevilled Scotland’s ineffective resistance to Brexit.

      It is inexcusable that Scotland’s omnipotent Constitutional Sovereignty has been so underplayed. We.. are… Sovereign! Nobody can overrule a Scottish mandate without first subjugating Scotland’s Constitution, and that is unlawful, yet time and again, we are mesmerised and do nothing. We are prisoners of our own frailty and lack of self confidence as a nation.

    245. Breeks says:

      Neither Scotland nor England feature in the the list of EU members. The UK is the member state, but dissolution of the Union means the UK ceases to exist, in lieu of two constitutionally equal components.

    246. Bob Mack says:

      The concensus seems to be that taking it to court is probab!y inevitable.

      What we appear to be disagreeing on is whether this should have been done already, or indeed is necessary.

    247. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      Boris Johnson has just told Parliament that the UK Government will be taking control of all of Scotland’s waters under his proposed Deal. Sounds like the #WithdrawalAgreementBill is as much about clawing powers back from the devolved nations as it is from the EU #indyref2020

      https://twitter.com/HelenP3617/status/1186623734549012482

      Well we knew that but still – taking Scotland’s water? They can F.R.O.

    248. Liz g says:

      Bob Mack @ 4.02
      I think that Nicola has actually said she believes this will eventually end up in Court?

    249. dadsarmy says:

      https://www.survation.com/archive/2019-2/

      “3rd October 2019 – Survation conducted a telephone poll of 501 BAME adults aged 18+ living in Scotland on behalf of Dr Nasar Meer and the University of Edinburgh. Fieldwork was between 8th July and 11th September 2019. Data tables can be found here.”

      “Q36. If there was a referendum on Scottish independence tomorrow, how would you vote on the question ‘Should Scotland be an independent country?'”

      YES: 55%
      NO: 45%

      Ooops! Note that that’s BAME adults.

      (margin of error at 95% confidence – 4% rather than the usual 3%).

    250. North chiel says:

      “Colin Alexander says@ 0232pm “
      “ So if the Ms Sturgeon fans are right, We’ll have Indyref2, Yes will win ,the SNP will declare Indy and we’ll all live happily ever after. “
      Then Colin goes on to say,
      “My expectation is then that the SNP would return to : winning an election is then a democratic basis for asserting Scottish Sovereignty in unilaterally declaring the 1707 Union dissolved:
      Sovereignty retained in Edinburgh and a Scotland run referendum on full economic and political Independence following soon after”
      And we’ll all live “ happily ever after Colin “? Methinks Ms Sturgeon’s Plan is simpler? However, I don’t disagree with your Plan B ( if required).

    251. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      And the Progress Scotland poll ?

    252. twathater says:

      Dadsarmy and Scotsrenewables this is exactly the problem the indy movement has , people are making up spurious and misleading figures which plays for the britnats and against the indy movement , this should not be possible or desirable

      The SNP SG have had 5 years to source this information and make it widely known yet it is left to individuals to attempt to ratify and disperse the CORRECT figures allowing undesirables to skew and deliberately misinform.

      I posted the other day that Derek Mackay had attempted to correct the spurious 7% deficit by explaining the dubious GERS figures yet the SNP SG are still allowing this fallacy to be used as a stick to beat them with . Derek done good

      I receive regular email updates re things like additional child care provision ( which is important obviously ) but NOTHING ,NADA , ZILCH re the promised rebuttal unit or the Progress unit , yet every day the lying bbc and their cohorts spread misinformation and deliberate lies against the SNP SG with total abandon
      I know that the SNP SG have a country to run ( effectively ) but if we are to gain independence PEOPLE have to be informed and CONVINCED not just by door knockers and activists but by the people and party they will elect to run an independent country , every interview conducted should be a party political broadcast for how an independent country will be better ran and governed unlike the clusterbourach we have now

      Scotsrenewables I have been on Stu’s site for a long time and yes many posters have left because they feel Stu is wrong to criticise the SNP or to wash dirty linen publicly but let’s face it if he didn’t highlight the divisive GRA and the duplicity of certain MSP’S and their entryist cohorts many people and voters would be unaware of the DEVIL within

      The SNP SG are just a political party just like any other and they MUST be kept honest and answerable to the voters and members lest they forget THEY SERVE US not the other way about

    253. callmedave says:

      Boris has shafted the NI DUP and no mistake they are not a happy bunch but the scorpion UK has stung! Well no surprise here.

      Boris told them lie after lie, as is his wont, but the small print in the agreement found him out.

      Looks like a no deal from Sammy Wilson and Co.

      Boris is bulldozing his deal towards his deadline but it’s failing

      Join the queue… NI 🙁

    254. Liz g says:

      What we should all remember is that the ” Union ” is us too.
      When we end the Treaty of Union we are not ending the Union of the Crowns,that’s a whole other conversation.
      And E.G.
      The use of the Union Flag (Union Jack) is ours to choose.
      The Scottish Government would need to agree that that flag was England’s or else retain the use of it.
      While I know that it represents a suppressive regime or a love of the Windsors to Scots nevertheless it is as much ours,as theirs, we are in there too.
      Therefore if it was useful to us as a Brand we shouldn’t just give it up without extracting a price

      Same with the Windsors…. Auld Lizzie has the keeping of many treasures held in trust for the nation.
      These treasures should also be part of the negotiation, everything acquired since 1706/7 has our name on it and anything before that which can be identified as Scottish should be exclusively ours.
      Even the agreement to lend the Stone of Destiny to Westminster Abbey for Coronation’s needs revisited.
      I’m not suggesting that we be that petty but I am sayin that we’re no exactly beggers at the gate here.!!!
      They wanted it portrayed as “complicated” to end the UK Union I’d say we don’t disagree?
      We proclaim just how complicated it will potentially be, but do it from our point of view. -)

    255. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      It’s Progress Scotland, whose purpose is to analyse how people can be moved from NO to YES. As such they were interested in the swing voters, rather the headline figures.

      Tables 4 to 11 with this base: “Base: Respondents who rate themselves 3-7 on a ten-point scale of support for Scottish independence”.

      I actually think they should have gone for 1 to 9, as they are all a little undecided. That would have been 699 respondents instead of 391 – much more data. 1289 picked either 0 or 10, and for a description for how that might be misleading read SGP, though personally I think the question was straightforward.

      Q1. On a scale of 0 to 10 where 0 means ‘I completely support Scotland staying part of the UK’ and 10 means ‘I completely support Scotland becoming independent’ what number would you consider yourself to be?

      Having said that the question IS too long, by the time you get to the end of it yo zzzzzzzzzz

      Interesting how your response to a positive poll for Indy is to ask about a poll which might not be thought of as positive, all the same.

    256. jockmcx says:

      THE RESULT OF A LIFETIME!

      General election 1918: Glasgow Pollok
      Party Candidate Votes
      Unionist John Gilmour Unopposed

      ———————————————————
      General election 1970: Glasgow Pollok
      Party Candidate Votes %
      Labour James White 19,311 46.25
      Conservative Esmond Wright 18,708 44.81
      SNP George Leslie 3,733 8.94

      Majority 603 1.44
      Turnout 72.46
      ———————————————————
      2005 constituency abolished
      ———————————————————
      General election 2015: Glasgow South

      Party Candidate Votes %
      SNP Stewart McDonald 26,773 54.9
      Labour Tom Harris 14,504 29.7
      Conservative Kyle Thornton 4,752 9.7
      Scottish Green Alastair Whitelaw 1,431 2.9
      Liberal Democrat Ewan Hoyle 1,019 2.1

      Majority 12,269 25.2
      Turnout 48,778 65.9

      SNP gain from Labour Swing +28.3
      ———————————————————-
      IT ONLY TOOK 100 YEARS to get to the brink of independence!
      SO!
      SHOVE YOUR IMPATIENCE UP YOUR ARSE
      unless of couse your goal
      is to send us back

      HERE!
      ——————

      General election 1918: Glasgow Pollok
      Party Candidate Votes
      Unionist John Gilmour Unopposed
      ———————————————————-
      your’s sincerely

      a friend.

      ps. vote SNP

    257. Liz g says:

      Twathater @ 4.47
      I totally agree.
      While there is some merit in the argument that the since the whole of the MSM are happy to report on SNP bad so it’s unnecessary to do it here!
      What we shouldn’t forget is that the MSM lie and make stuff up….. Stu reports honestly,if the SNP ( a political part like any other ) are doing or not doing something then we should know about it…… And preferably from a source that’s reliable and that doesn’t have an agenda to protect the Union!

    258. Colin Alexander says:

      If Scotland votes for indy: who inherits the assets and debts?

      Does the UK end ?

      Is Scotland a new state?

      Did Kingdom of Scotland common sovereignty of the people end with the Union or carries on into the Union?

      Basic questions never answered legally or politically.

      AKA a feckin shambles.

      Political deals will negotiated says the SNP. We’ve see how negotiations go within the UK, if your Scotland: shafted. Even with the mighty EU, negotiations with UK are a nightmare.

      Why would England /UK treat Scotland any fairer out of the UK than in the UK?

      Of course they wouldn’t.
      ————————
      Nicola, the SNP, and the people on here tell us that indyref is the legal way to dissolve the Union, the “gold standard”. Gold standard is like “once in a generation: political bullshit.

      Prove s30 indyref is the legal gold standard. Show me the legal ruling on that: there isn’t one.

      Should Scotland be an independent country? is an even bigger pig in a poke than EU ref.

      The SNP want indy in the EU. You remain ultimately sovereign but, you cede some sovereignty to be in ANY union. If in ANY union you are not independent. UNION ! Get it?

      As someone who voted Remain, I accept that truth.

      Independence would be the same WRONG question. Political Sovereignty of Scotland is the real issue.

      But, SNP, same unanswered questions. Same rhetoric. Same bluff their way through, avoiding answering questions. We’ve to take it on faith.

      No voters who could be persuaded to vote YES WON’T take it on faith. They aren’t the believers. They need to be convinced.

      Uncertainty is an advantage to the UK. Project Fear exploits these uncertainties.

      Same unquestioning / uncritical YES movement who dare not question in case the facade of SNP strategy is revealed to be crap.

    259. Colin Alexander says:

      2014: We all know Project Fear was based on lies. Too many to list right now but eg. No vote = keeping Scotland safely in the EU and Home Rule / Devo Max are probably the biggest whoppers.

      But the YES campaign had its dubious claims too eg:

      Edinburgh Agreement would be respected.

      18 months smooth transition from UK to indy Scotland.

      Shared resources and common organisations with rUK.

      Continued membership of the EU for Scotland.

      Sharing the Pound would be straightforward and by mutual agreement with rUK.

    260. Liz g says:

      Colin Alexander @ 5.42
      Why are you stating that aims are just lies!
      All of that was possible,only the intransigence of Westminster would have prevented it.
      As was all of the promises made by Westminster and their minions.
      The only actual truth is that Westminster made no attempt to deliver what they said they would and that’s what demonstrated that it was a lie!

    261. crazycat says:

      @ dadsarmy at 5.10

      Have you seen this?
      https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/10/on-scale-of-confusion-from-0-to-10.html

      I assume it refers to the same poll. I’m just about to read another article on the same site, about the Herald lying to its readers, which no doubt also covers that poll.

    262. Sinky says:

      Bbc national tv news now giving lib dems Westminster third party status and reducing SNP behind DUP in their Brexit coverage

    263. Colin Alexander says:

      Liz g

      I never said lies, I said “dubious”. Dubious means uncertain, unreliable.

      YES stating things uncertain and outwith their control makes the claims dubious.

    264. crazycat says:

      ps –

      It’s actually the Scotsman that gets first mention, with an update to report that the Herald has done the same:
      https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-scotsman-newspaper-should-be-deeply.html

    265. Cubby says:

      Tory Diddies in Hof Commons today

      Luke Graham, Scottish Tory MP claims there was a civil war in N.Ireland. “Northern Ireland is a war torn province that has been subject to a civil war.”

      Rory (not the Tory now ) Stewart claims London is the same as Scotland re Brexit.

      The rubbish these Tories spout is endless.

    266. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Oh I do have ulterior motives. Vefy much so Why is nobody accusing Progress Scotland about a dubious poll and its content, but so quickly turned on this site?
      Do you see my point? What allows leeway to Angus Robertson?

    267. Liz g says:

      Colin Alexander @ 6.09
      Your playing semantics…..
      “Too”in common parlance means as well as,and I suspect you know that Too!
      Because there was a No vote in 2014,the proposals of the Yes side/ SNP remain just that, Proposals.
      The only debate is therefore were they credible proposals!

      On the other Hand we have evidence that the proposals of the BrItish Nationalists side didn’t deliver what they, proposed they would, and therefore we can safely call them liars…

    268. dadsarmy says:

      @crazycat
      Yes I read the first and now the second, and realise I actually misunderstood the first. It seems David Halliday was asked a totally different scale – the other way around in fact.

      It’s also as SS points out, not even a good question as people could be drawn to both – Scotland being independent and staying in the Union. Remember Salmond and his silly “Five Unions” or however many it was.

    269. crazycat says:

      @ dadsarmy

      I realize Progress are trying to be nuanced, and that of course not everyone contemplating voting Yes has the same certainty/commitment, but I really don’t think any polls other than those which ask the actual Yes/No question tell us anything about trends or likely outcomes*.

      I do lots of YouGov polls, which frequently have 0-10 scales; I try hard to be accurate in my responses, but often find it very difficult to choose (not about independence!) and I’m not sure my answers are consistent over time. But it would not be correct to report a shift in my opinion.

      *I know Mark Diffley is a reputable pollster and I’m not even a disreputable one. No doubt he knows what he’s doing. I’ll just remain sceptical.

    270. Graeme says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      22 October, 2019 at 5:42 pm

      “2014: We all know Project Fear was based on lies. Too many to list right now but eg. No vote = keeping Scotland safely in the EU and Home Rule / Devo Max are probably the biggest whoppers.

      But the YES campaign had its dubious claims too eg:

      Edinburgh Agreement would be respected.

      18 months smooth transition from UK to indy Scotland.

      Shared resources and common organisations with rUK.

      Continued membership of the EU for Scotland.

      Sharing the Pound would be straightforward and by mutual agreement with rUK.”

      ————————

      It’s quite telling Colin that your list of Better Together lies is condensed into a short 3 line paragraph of 35 words, and the YES side claims (which were all perfectly reasonable had our side won) gets 50 words with in your face double line spacing

      Honestly Colin I don’t think you’re kidding anyone and quite honestly this constant anti SNP/Indy rhetoric is becoming fucking tedious

    271. One_Scot says:

      To be honest I don’t know why anyone gives the fud the time of day.

    272. Colin Alexander says:

      Liz g

      Proposals, assumptions, hopes, call them what you will.

      People prefer facts to convince them.

      Uncertainties create doubt, doubt creates fear.
      People become afraid of the unknown.

      So, fear over hope won.

      Also, YES was sucked into: “I’m a woman but, if I were a man my willie would be bigger than your willie”, kind of arguments regarding economic prosperity, regarding an indy Scotland v rUK (or whatever the status post YES would be).

      Again, complete speculation: from No and Yes.

    273. Colin Alexander says:

      Graeme

      No won, so we are able to test the promises / assertions from No.

      I pointed out too many Project Fear lies to list so, I listed the two major ones – FIRST.

    274. galamcennalath says:

      In WM coverage, the BBC doing their duty and talking over part of Ian Blackford’s statement. As soon as he talks about independence, they stop viewers hearing what he says.

      Shouldn’t surprise anyone, of course.

    275. Colin Alexander says:

      Liz g

      No promised, No = guaranteed staying in EU. Total lie.

      Yes told us, Yes means Scotland stays in EU too. But Scot Govt would not publish legal advice.

      Story now from Scot Govt is maybe EFTA first, smooth quick transition to EU ( probably, hopefully ).

      Suggests the assertion of certainty staying in the EU following YES was, at best, uncertain (in 2014).

    276. Bob Mack says:

      Anyone care to predict riots in England?

    277. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Flagging this up – should be worth a watch.

      https://www.radiotimes.com/tv-programme/e/jrqr85/the-battle-of-skye-bridge/

      It’s on the BBC’s Scotland channel at 10pm tonight. You can find it on Channel 9 on Freeview, BT and Talk Talk; 174 on Freesat and 876 on Sky.

    278. Colin Alexander says:

      Edinburgh Agreement was not respected – the UK Govt breached it:

      BBC bias, breach of Purdah, with Vow false promises etc.

      Johnson’s Tory Govt is even more untrustworthy than Cameron’s.

      Alex wanted the s30 mainly to get the Edinburgh Agreement. Edinburgh Agreement was only valuable in proving UK Govt will not abide by agreements unless legally enforceable.

      Edinburgh Agreement was a gentlemens agreement, non-legally binding. UK Govt knew they could breach it at will – and did.

      Anyway, good luck to Nicola dealing with Bojo, she’ll need it.

    279. Liz g says:

      Colin Alexander @ 7.48
      It does nothing of the kind,that’s only your interpretation!

    280. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Liz G.

      Somebody’s spinning themselves into knots, iye? Where’s Cubby when you need him?

      8=)

    281. Breeks says:

      Did Ian Blackford just ask the Speaker, John Bercow, to discuss what options are open to Scotland???

      It’s the UN you need to approach Mr Blackford, citing the aggressive anti democratic British colonial Parliament seeking to subjugate the sovereign will of Scotland’s people, contrary to International Law, and to the serious detriment of Scotland’s interests, commodities and economy.

      I would furthermore seek to liaise with Europe, accept no deflection or misdirection, and pave the way for Scotland to revoke Article 50 unilaterally, or as Maria says, formally dispute its original legitimacy. Either way, drive a dividing wedge into the UK Brexit.

      Circle the wagons around Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty under imminent threat of unlawful colonial subjugation, and formally commit Scotland to staying in Europe, claim political asylum for the whole nation if that’s what it takes to secure our place in Europe, then hold our own council about a national plebiscite to determine the national status we want Scotland to enjoy.

      We MUST construct an emergency Scottish Backstop around our Constitutional Sovereignty and make it sound, and worthy of International recognition.

      It is just incredible the casual way an 8% shrinkage in GDP is being proposed through Brexit. The devastating Credit Crunch of 2008 delivered a mere 2% shrinkage in GDP, and that was calamitous and many businesses and worthwhile enterprises are still reeling a full decade later. The threat is real.

      Please, for the sake of Scotland, start fighting this with more than rhetoric and petty interventions. Our docile acquiescence to this subjugation is the hardest thing to bear. That is not what you were elected to do. You are there to defend the Sovereign integrity of our nation, and extricate Scotland from the Treaty of Union.

    282. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bob Mack – on predictions of riots in England….

      …..If Townsend doesn’t do the honourable thing I will bloody well be rioting in Scotland!

    283. Cubby says:

      BDTT@8.14pm

      How can I help?

    284. Abulhaq says:

      À PROPOS WESTMINSTER NARCISSISM.

      In the works of man, everything is as poor as its author; vision is confined, means are limited, scope is restricted, movements are labored, and results are humdrum.

      Joseph de Maistre
      The Generative Principle of Political Constitutions.

      WE CAN, WE MUST DO BETTER THAN THIS.

    285. Liz g says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 8.14
      Hi Brian
      Aye and makin nae relevant point either…
      Coulda,woulda,shoulda is nae real distraction from what the British Nationalists actually demonstrably did!

    286. Cubby says:

      There is no low too low for Britnats to grovel to their English Britnats. Nigel Dodds, DUP Westminster leader begs Johnston to reconsider his Brexit deal after he had lost. So Johnson throws the DUP under the bus and Dodds stands up grovelling. Pathetic creatures these Britnats from Scotland/N.Ireland/Wales. Subservience to England is their default position.

    287. Golfnut says:

      Another great post on Macalbasite.wordpress.com

      Be warned, this may cheer you or depress you, the scale of the theft of Scotland’s resources is staggering.

    288. Heart of Galloway says:

      “This is a Government that has sought to ignore the wishes of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people.

      “It is obvious to us that if we want to guarantee our rights as European citizens then Scotland has to become an independent country.” – Ian Blackford. No idle boast, as events will prove.

    289. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 20:53,

      I’m surprised that anyone is still taking Lord Hee Haw seriously, TBH, Liz, since his only real purpose has surely become self-evident to all.

      If the site were a room, it would be full of artificial mist right now. He’s been working overtime of late, since he evidently sees great danger in the developing situation. (And I don’t mean to Nicola & Co.)

    290. Mist001 says:

      @ Breeks

      You’ve raised an interesting point for me at least. Never mind revoking Article 50 unilaterally, what would happen if Scotland took the stance of not recognising article 50 in the first place?

      The Brexit referendum was only advisory, there was no requirement for anyone to act upon it so why comply with article 50?

    291. Colin Alexander says:

      I complained to the EU Commission that the A50 trigger was unlawful as Scotland’s people are sovereign and their Remain vote was ignored.

      I wrote and got sympathetic anodyne empty words from Mr Alyn Smith MEP.

      Did the SNP challenge the legality of A50? No.

      The SNP have now written asking that devolution govts get longer to consider the latest deal.

      Where’s the talk of Scottish sovereignty from the SNP to EU? There is none.

      Did any of the great patriots on here bother to write to the EU to assert Scottish sovereignty?

      Come on Scottish Patriots, list what you did to assert Scottish sovereignty?

      Breeks; he sticks up for Scottish sovereignty despite the insults and derision from the keyboard know-it-alls, that think slagging others on here is a positive step.

      What about the rest of you? Chattering and bitching amongst ourselves does nothing for indy.

    292. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Cubby at 8:34 pm.

      You asked,
      “How can I help?”

      Och, yi ken!

    293. Iain mhor says:

      @Mike cassidy.11:28am

      Thanks for the link. Sorry so long getting back to you.
      I’ll note that the article tends towards the definitive ‘all referendums are advisory’ and where the UK Parliament stands by its ‘Parliamentary Sovereignty’ that can be argued indeed.
      Though there is no uniqueness to a referendum in that respect, all legislation is ‘advisory’ where ‘Parliamentary Sovereignty’ is concerned.
      There is no uniqueness to the UK Parliament altering legislation retrospectively to suit its own ends. That is to say any legislation passed to enable a referendum to be “binding”, may simply be struck down or altered after the result.
      The article you link touches on the apt point of pre or post-referendum legislation requirements, in order to actually legislate for the result of a referendum. That is where, tenuously, a referendum becomes binding. At least insofar as any UK legislation is binding (which it isn’t) A referendum result is just the start of negotiations.

      See also:
      http://tinyurl.com/y3b3hwdm

      Attlee once said that he “..could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum” – meaning its potential to usurp Parliamentary Sovereignty. Similarly, Parliamentary Sovereignty and Divine right, has been described as “an alien device” in relation to Scotland’s constitution and claim of right.
      There are reams and reams of paper expended on such issues – we won’t resolve them here. Suffice to say, all of it is challengeable and all of it should be challenged, none of it is sacrosanct.

    294. AberdeenPict says:

      Mist001

      The Brexit referendum was only advisory, there was no requirement for anyone to act upon it so why comply with article 50?

      Good point Mist, that was my understanding too, Brexit was not compulsory nor was it written into any constitution (I could be wrong).

    295. call me dave says:

      Holyrood will not be recalled for Brexit debate

      https://archive.is/JnLM9

    296. Old Pete says:

      Why is support for Scottish independence not at least 60% in polls by now. Why are we not getting through to Scottish voters ? If we can’t regain our Independence and self respect from this vile Union with all this Brexit crap going on, when will we ?

    297. dakk says:

      I still think this will rumble on until a time forced election happens.

      There is a majority/remain opposition who according to the polls cannot at present win an election.

      Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas,and these turkeys do actually get to vote.

      If a week is a long time in politics,then in 2 years the demographics will have changed even more than from the 3 years since Brexit referendum.

      I can’t see it happening and the old gammons won’t have it in them to riot. Maybe Tommy Robinson,but that’s about it.

      A couple of chairs thrown across some community halls will be all.

    298. Cubby says:

      BDDT@10.03pm

      Naw ah dinnae Ken.

      You been hitting the whisky and irn bru again?

    299. Gary45% says:

      Colin Alexander@ seems like all day.
      Its time to perform your magic sticking your head up your own arse yoga move.
      Are the brigade prodding you with the panic stick again?
      Have another try tomorrow.
      Night night Son.

    300. Heart of Galloway says:

      Jon Snow C4 says the votes tonight would be “the most important vote in 50 years.” 15 minutes later the channel pulled its direct coverage the second Ian Blackford got to his feet.

      BBC made the same move to the millisecond. Choreographed or what?

      And BBC Newsnight – no SNP rep on panel. Next item was a vox pop of leave-minded OAPs in…leave-minded Scunthorpe. These are not journalists. They are a fan club.

    301. Effijy says:

      Can I add ITV news who took comments from today’s
      Parliamentary machinations from a Tory, Labour and Lib Dem MPs (Swansong herself)
      No SNP and damn them for being the 3rd largest party in England’s HoC.

      The UK media is entirely controlled and co-ordinated by the UK elite.
      Lie, Spin, Distort, Bury and Distract is the job of UK Fake news journalist.

    302. Footsoldier says:

      The broadcast media are NEVER going to give us air time – why should they – we are the enemy, get used to it.

      We need an advertising campaign with short sharp messages like https://indyposterboy.scot/ does.

      What is required is a central co-ordinator with Yes groups funding their own local billboards through the co-ordinator. Forget anything like this from the SNP – time for Yes groups to take control and leave SNP to do election admin.

    303. Iain mhor says:

      @Aberdeen Pict 19:19pm

      The link I posted above replying to Mike Cassidy covers that question (Section C – Legal status of referendums)
      But if you are really having trouble sleeping at night, I can recommend to everyone, the (almost) definitive:

      HOUSE OF LORDS Select Committee on the Constitution
      12th Report of Session 2009­-10
      Referendums in the United Kingdom
      Report with Evidence

      It is comprehensive and compulsory reading for anyone wrestling with the topic. To help stave off narcolepsy, perhaps dip into paragraphs 190+ para 59+ and maybe para 95+
      But seriously, it is required reading.

      https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldconst/99/99.pdf

    304. ScotsRenewables says:

      Footsoldier says:
      22 October, 2019 at 11:19 pm
      The broadcast media are NEVER going to give us air time – why should they – we are the enemy, get used to it.

      We need an advertising campaign with short sharp messages like https://indyposterboy.scot/ does.

      What is required is a central co-ordinator with Yes groups funding their own local billboards through the co-ordinator.

      Indy Poster Boy now does DIY billboards – get to it, everyone.

    305. Iain mhor says:

      *Aberdeen Pict 10:19pm* oops.

    306. Fireproofjim says:

      Old Pete
      You ask why Independence is not at 60% yet.
      My theory is that a considerable number of people are not interested in politics, as is shown by the numbers that read the Star and the Sun. if they vote it is for the easy status quo.
      Mind you, I can hardly blame them. It has been a hard row to hoe over the past six years or so.
      Never mind. 50% is a great starting point (it was 28% in 2011) and we will move towards 60% with an active campaign.
      We have been treading water for the Brexit nonsense to clarify and that will change when the Inderef2 whistle is blown.

    307. Davie Oga says:

      Sky gave good coverage of Blackford today.
      Also on the press review, Miata Fahnbulleh (New Economics foundation) talked about how SNP votes were crucial. This was in relation to a General Election. They seemed to be of the opinion that SNP and Torys could force an election by overturning Fixed term Parliament Act.

      Labour will be hammered in an election. They’ll do all they can to avoid one.

      The SNP is going to have to deal with Boris eventually. No time like the present

    308. Ghillie says:

      Aberdeen Pict @ 10.19 pm

      I reckon the Tories jumped at the chance to avoid facing the new EU Tax laws even though the EU Referendum was only advisory.

      And now I am wondering how Boris will cope with the very real possibility that he won’t meet his Halloween deadline. When do those new tax laws bang in?

      How much trouble will he in then?

    309. Ghillie says:

      Fireproofjim @ 11.34 pm

      Thankyou for that very positive post 🙂

      ScotsRenewables @ 11.23 pm

      Thankyou! A very useful link to Indy Poster Boy’s DIY posters 🙂

    310. Achnababan says:

      Boris Johnston thinks he is Churchill reincarnate – I think he is much closer to Adolf – it is easy to imagine Rees-Mogg as Albert Speer and Gove as Himmler, Scary stuff – sleep well.

    311. Breeks says:


      Mist001 says:
      22 October, 2019 at 9:18 pm
      @ Breeks

      You’ve raised an interesting point for me at least. Never mind revoking Article 50 unilaterally, what would happen if Scotland took the stance of not recognising article 50 in the first place….

      I’m not a lawyer, so for all I know there might be established doctrine to the chronology of legal principles. Could a revocation of Article 50 be better served by disputing the validity of Article 50 being sent? Couldn’t you then argue back and back again until Scotland joined the EEC without explicit consent?

      Ultimately you may be able to dispute the entire history of the UK throughout its entire 300+ year existence. In principle perhaps you could, but in practical reality, it would be a rather long and protracted court case.

      My non-lawyers brain thinks we should limit the scope of a legal dispute to the least burdensome issue we can readily win which delivers the change we want to secure.

      If Scotland was to revoke Article 50 unilaterally, the immediate question is whether Scotland has the capacity to do that, and hence you are immediately in the thick of an existential Constitutional battle which we shall win, and the victory will presumably void Scotland’s extraction from Europe.

      However, again, thinking with my non-lawyers brain, if Scotland disputes Article 50 unilaterally, Scotland might be successful undoing Article 50 and staying in the EU, but there8s a credible possibility it might inadvertently undo the UK’s Article 50, rewinding the whole UK ‘s exit.

      But, I think, Legal expediency would recognise the capacity for two sovereign nations on the brink of dissolving their own Union to express themselves independently, and Scotland I hope would be able to revoke Article 50 unilaterally, and England would perhaps be given an option to do likewise or continue on its current trajectory out of Europe.

      Rather than win a massive and complex court case, win a tiny little one where the ramifications are huge. I firmly believe Scotland should revoke Article 50 unilaterally, stay in the EU, and watch success in that snowball into full sovereign Independence.

    312. Breeks says:

      I think too, while not trying to impugn the integrity of the judges, I think the gravity of goodwill from Europe would like to Scotland winning its right to stay in Europe.

      Add that to the provenance of our Scottish Nation, from before the Declaration of Arbroath, (which the Declaration itself encompasses), right up to the very recent acknowledgement and affirmation of the Claim of Right by the House of Commons, and it is very difficult to see how Westminster could lodge any credible counter argument.

      Voting NO in 2014 was a sovereign edict to remain in UK, it was not the abdication of Sovereignty.
      Voting Remain in 2016 was a sovereign edict to remain in the EU, and Westminster has no Sovereign right to overrule that edict. It has even acknowledged the people of Scotland are sovereign. What is that, if not a Constitutional ‘signed confession’?

    313. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Well that’s it then.

      Boris Johnson has pulled off a spectacular win by fooling everyone into thinking he was a useless clown.

      1 hour 11 minutes ago, the BBC report Boris will call a General Election if the EU grant a 3 month extension. The EU have little option: they have to grant an extension or we crash out of the EU. Well played Mr Blondie.

      The genius of this is we all did the work for the odious squatter in number10.

      Johnson will now propose a repeal of the Fixed Term Parliament Act. The 21 whipless Tories were useful idiots. Most of these 21 will be offered the whip and their place back in the Tory fold as long as they vote to repeal the Fixed Term Parliament Act and support Brexit. Some Tory MPs might need a knighthood or CBE, but Johnson will get his Election as he only needs 51% to repeal.

      The Tories will then win 340 to 350 seats in Westminster during the January 2020 General Election.

      Boris will milk the “Parliament Baaad MP” shtick for all it is worth,

      The people will believe Johnson because he REALLY LOOKED LIKE HE HAD ACHIEVED A BREXIT DEAL. Even though it was a well designed feckless death feint with the EU all along.

      This has been a political game of chess and we in Scotland, with some of the finest and ingenious minds in the world couldn’t win tiddlywinks with Boris the Buffoon.

      Great.

      FIVE more years of Tory austerity. More welfare reform deaths.

      As for Holyrood, Boris HATES the Jocks. So does most of Engerland with that hashtag #fcukoffscotland.

      Alister Union Jack will neuter Holyrood so that it becomes that “pretendy wee parliament” that Billy Connolly warned us of.

      I really feel sorry for Ian Blackford. He was earnest and decent in his effort to save ENGERLAND FROM BREXIT, but didn’t see the real game plan all along.

      Who will stand up for Scotland for the now and frankly what for?

      Sorry Nicola you were warned..

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-grand-strategy/

      Nope, the IndyRef2 was within our reach and our team dropped the ball. We have been beaten by waphat Ewan McGregor calls an effete bunch of vvankers. We cannot even get a decent nation to colonise us!

      VVankers they may be, but this was ALL GAMED OUT WITH LASER PRECISION MONHS BEFORE BORIS GOT INTO NUMBER 10.

      For Heavens sake Scotland, why oh why did the governing party not listen to the warnings of Stuart Campbell? Why did the SNP close down any “Plan B” debate at last week’s conference?

      As for Brexit? Boris will take the UK out once his obedient new 350 Tory MPs are elected in February 2020 and don’t think that any of the new batch will be Europhiles. The Conservative Party Constituency chairmen and women are already sorting out the ironclad new list of Boris clone intake. God help us all.

      Sad, sad, sad.

      ——–

      Source on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50148094

    314. RM says:

      Breeks your right, what I don’t understand is one minute this brexit deal is worse than Mays deal, it lost in votes, then it won on votes, this is one set up from the start with every politician playing their part, I hope the Scots MPs are not part of this set up, they should walk out and stop worrying about this farce, the more you look at things everything is tied up in legislative power which has been brought in by stealth over many years.

    315. Breeks says:

      Bad, sadly, the most depressing thing is on current form, we won’t even try.

      The Scottish government will do nothing but talk about winning a referendum next year, or the year after, or whenever… and another open goal has been missed. Our Constitution left discredited again, and we’ll whimper out of Europe like a starved greyhound waiting for SSPCA to turn up and save us.

      What good is our ancient Constitution when our own modern government doesn’t respect it? What hope is there of International recognition when our own Scottish Government has no faith in our Constitution?

      I make no apologies. I condemn the government which condemns our own constitution, but it’s more complicated than that. The Scottish Government sometimes uses the vocabulary of a constitutionally sovereign nation, but at other times, squanders the power and significance of Scottish Sovereignty and lets all the air out our tyres. It is acutely frustrating that the Scottish Government seems blighted by this identity crisis, and we are all paralysed by what, I think, can only be internal factions vying for strategic dominance.

      Currently, the devout acolytes of democracy see the Constitutional fundamentalists (like me), as the faithless (and outnumbered), heretics, and I’m afraid it might cost Scotland some serious layers of legal and constitutional protection. It will see us suffering a ruinous Brexit we might have avoided for a start…

      If I thought it would do any good, I’d tell everyone to write to Joanna Cherry and plead with her to attempt to Revoke Article 50 unilaterally, along the same trail that was blazed already to the ECJ. It seems to me merely to ask the ECJ Law lords to clarify a judgement they have already delivered will clear any and all fences put in its way.

      The ECJ said revocation of Article 50 was a sovereign prerogative, and since Scotland has constitutional sovereignty recognised by Westminster, then Scotland should properly have the right to revoke Article 50 unilaterally, (perhaps the whole UK Article 50, but it wouldn’t matter – we’d stop Scotland’s subjugation).

      Scotland would be saved from Brexit, and the EU would have its own mini Constitutional crisis with a Brexit process which didn’t respect the sovereignty of Scotland and a European Court of Justice which did. I believe the EU would summarily resolve that mini-crisis by recognising Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty. They would have no choice.

      Scotland would thus be treated as an independent sovereign nation before Scotland formally dissolved the UK Union. Scotland might then propose a referendum or plebiscite to ratify sovereign independence, and take its own sweet time, because we’d be safe in Europe, and that strain on the UK Union would make it untenable and it’s fate would be sealed. It might wither and die of its own accord.

      Come on Joanna Cherry, Revoke Article 50 unilaterally. To quote the pig-child Boris, “Get it done”.

    316. manandboy says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/23/tories-hire-facebook-propaganda-pair-to-run-online-election-campaign

      The Cambridge Analytica era goes from strength to strength as 10 Downing Street welcome new pair of operators of political psychological operations in advance of General Election. Democracy will be the big loser.

    317. Abulhaq says:

      The tedious old trope.
      A certain David Melvyn Linden wmp for Glasgow East said on R4 PM the role of the SNP is to stop Brexit.
      The Scottish Notyet Party and its psychological problem with independence continues. As the only reason to vote SNP is independence..where to now?
      Where does Sturgeon keep these guy’s balls?
      Mi5 couldn’t do a better job gelding Scottish nationalism.

    318. admiral says:

      I wonder if wee Kezia ever wakes in a cold sweat at the thought of the 13 Tory lickspittles from Scottish constituencies that she enthusiastically helped to get elected. If those 13 votes had stayed SNP, who knows whether Brexit would still be dragging on, instead of long since being consigned to the dustbin of history?

      PS To answer my own musings – Kezia has neither the intelligence or imagination to think about anything very much. 🙂

    319. defo says:

      Someone ^ asked (sorry, couldn’t re-find).

      31/01/20 is the date the new EU transparency rules kick in I believe.
      Hence the desperate rush I suppose,

    320. manandboy says:

      THE DARK UNDERNEATH PARTY – The DUP.

      http://archive.fo/7CVKC

      The Guardian reports on a bad week for the Dark Underneath Party (DUP), now superfluous to PMJohnson’s needs, and about to be confronted by the Cash for Ashes Report, as well as a new book by Sam McBride, titled ‘Burned’, on, yes you’ve guessed it, Cash for Ashes.

      Here’s a taster:-

      “Well, here is a parable: a few years ago, a DUP minister in Stormont was told by his private secretary that a poultry company based in Northern Ireland wished to give him a free turkey for Christmas. The minister was in the middle of making decisions that would have a bearing on the future profits of the company – he was told that the turkey could be small, medium or large. The minister asked his private secretary to phone the company and ask them if they had something bigger.
      That story is included in a remarkable book just published in Ireland. If the black clouds of the past week had just a sliver of a silver lining for the DUP it is that the sudden escalation of Brexit negotiations took some attention away from author Sam McBride’s revelations about the DUP’s true attitude to the UK. The book, Burned, is about the renewable heating incentive (RHI) scandal in Northern Ireland. It reveals that the party was, it seems, quite happy to keep the so-called “cash for ash” incentive going in its beloved province for as long as it could milk the British treasury to pay for it. Panic only set in when it emerged that Stormont had to pay for the overspend. McBride compared the RHI legislation introduced in the UK in 2011 with the legislation brought into Northern Ireland the following year by Foster, then minister for enterprise, trade and investment. They were almost identical – except that 107 words had been removed from the Northern Ireland version: the ones that dealt with cost controls.”

      ” Foster insisted to Sir Patrick Coghlin’s inquiry into the scandal that she did not recognise there was a “perverse incentive” to burn fuel at the heart of the scheme, despite having been told of it by a whistleblower. Plenty did spot it. Boilers blazed in empty churches with open windows. Poultry catchers complained they were sweating so much they had to change their clothes during shifts. As comedian Tim McGarry put it, there were farmers in Northern Ireland putting on oven gloves to open the door of their sheds.”

    321. galamcennalath says:

      Heart of Galloway says:

      Jon Snow C4 says the votes tonight would be “the most important vote in 50 years.” 15 minutes later the channel pulled its direct coverage the second Ian Blackford got to his feet.

      BBC did much the same. They let Blackford talk until he mentioned independence. Then they talked over him say, “time for a summary”. Viewers weren’t being allowed to hear what was said.

      Coincidence or conspiracy?

    322. jfngw says:

      Anybody else think a particular BBC reporter, with a No 10 source always available, possibly has a pole in the living room too?

    323. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@9.22am

      “Coincidence or conspiracy”. COLLUSION

      Collusion between the political parties and the media to ignore or rubbish Scottish independence and Scotland. When this is the situation then there is only a faux democracy in Scotland. Another nation using its politicians and its media to control the information and narrative. This is and never will be a democracy.

    324. Breeks says:

      If anybody is interested, the FM is live-streaming something about Brexit, somewhere, at 11 am… or so..

    325. Proud Cybernat says:

      Just discovered Rev Stu has blocked me from his Twitter account. No reason given and there was no bad-mouthing or Twitter spat with him. Just some robust, good-natured discussion. But blocked I am.

      Well, Rev – I really, really don’t know what your problem is these days but you’ve just lost another ‘Winger’ and subscriber.

      Good luck, Rev.

      PC

    326. Colin Alexander says:

      SNP plans:

      Plan A: Put conditions for triggering indyref in 2016 manifesto that seem unlikely to happen to get votes of Yes supporters. Legal action to protect SNP devolution powerbase: Sewel Convention legal challenge.

      Plan A scrapped: UK Parliament votes for A50. Sewel ruled by Supreme Court as colonial kidology.
      ———————————————————-

      Plan B: Offer to drop Indyref for EU single market alignment and EU customs union

      Plan B scrapped: Theresa May ignores Indyref talks letter and FM’s offer to drop indyref for Single market deal.
      ————————————————————-
      Plan C: Try to protect SNP devolution power base by Continuity Bill.

      Plan C scrapped: UK Govt stymie Continuity Bill, UK Withdrawal from EU Bill would strip powers to WM that should have gone to Holyrood if UK leaves EU.

      ————————————————————–
      SNP Plan D: Play for time: Go for England Decides #2 ( The People’s Vote).
      and argue can’t have indyref whilst the EU question is not settled.

      Insist indyref is only way , knowing any indyref will be legally challenged.

      Heads in sand, stonewall critics, ignore any questions or criticisms from YES movement, attack their motives and characters.

      Play for time to 2021 to seek another SNP devolution / colonial administration.

      Who else but SNP for indy movement? Vote SNP: get more British Empire colonial administration run by SNP.

      Correction: Scotland colony administered by Sturgeon and her woke supporters.

    327. Old Pete says:

      Mr. Alexander if we don’t vote SNP at the general election then as a supporter of Scottish independence who do we vote for ?

    328. call me dave says:

      Another Jackson Pollock dribbling all over the canvas.
      Something for everyone to interpret. 🙂

      PS:

      Aye! FMs Wales and Scotland in Westminster to do an interview re: EU and devolved administrations.

    329. ScotsRenewables says:

      manandboy says:
      For Heavens sake Scotland, why oh why did the governing party not listen to the warnings of Stuart Campbell? Why did the SNP close down any “Plan B” debate at last week’s conference?

      How do you know they did not listen? I find it unlikelyu that this blog it utterly ignored by the leadership. Surely you don;t expect them to say ‘Oh yes Mr Campbell you were of course right all along’ ??

      And there was no need top discuss Plan B. Everyone knows what Plan B and Plan C are, but until. they are actually needed talking about them will just expose the party ot more media ridicule.

      The more the panic anad hysteria sets in among indy supporters the more I believe that the SNP are playing it as cannily as they possibly can. It’s a tightrope, and it;s getting windier.

      There is no quick ‘constitutional’ or ‘legal’ route to independence. A clear majority of Scottish voters MUST be in favour of it.

      Looks like a GE before Christmas. Let’s see what platform the SNP campaign on. Meanwhile, there is NOTHING they could have done that would have made independence any nearer than it is now.

      The future hasn’t happened yet, so stop weaving future histories and concentrate on the upcoming campaign

    330. Old Pete says:

      I want Scottish independence as soon as possible but how do we legally get it when half our population still seem to be against it ? I have put forward numerous ideas on here but no one seems to have a sensible solution that will legally regain our statehood other than gaining permission from Westminster to have a referendum ?
      We need some way round Westminster control, however the SNP don’t appear to have come up with some other route forward ?
      Considering all the legal eagles in the SNP, if they can’t find another legal way out from Westminster control is UDI our only way forward ? If we did go that way would we end up like Catalonia ?
      Unless we have a large majority wanting and supporting Independence then UDI would be squashed by the English Nationalist Government in London supported by the Britnats within Scotland. So has anyone got a better way forward ? if so what is it and would it be accepted and successful.

    331. ScotsRenewables says:

      UDI = Unmitigated Disaster for Independence

    332. ScotsRenewables says:

      I wonder is Stu has run any of his current thinking past Alex?

      Would love to be a fly on that wall.

    333. shug says:

      @old Pete

      We simply have to make sure Westminster make it bad for the no voters too – that is the fishermen the farmers the old folk
      They will come round as Westminster makes their lives worse
      The main challenge in this is the BBC will always spin things in favour of the government. As fishing and farming is closed down/sold off Gove will present it as a career opportunity for fishermen and farmers and that is how the BBC will present it. When old folk cant get their medicine it will be sun as an opportunity to use our palliative services.

    334. Colin Alexander says:

      Old Pete

      Short answer: vote for any candidate that seeks a direct mandate to dissolve the Union. If there is none: abstain.
      But that’s your choice.
      ————————————-
      Long answer:
      If the SNP put in their manifesto words to the effect:

      The people of Scotland are sovereign. They have right to self-determination.

      The Scottish Parliament intends to hold an indyref in the lifetime of this Scottish Parliament on behalf of the people of Scotland. The SNP believe this referendum should be a process for the people of Scotland.

      The SNP seek a mandate that a majority of seats in Scotland or 50% +1 of the popular vote for the SNP or other pro-independence candidates at any election will be a democratic mandate to dissolve the UK Union, at the time at a time of choosing by the Scottish Parliament or Scotland’s MPs (if the Scottish Parliament is prevented from doing so) by means of exercising Scotland’s sovereignty, if the indyref procedure is blocked or unduly interfered with.

      Then vote SNP. As I would too.

      ——————————-
      Of course the SNP won’t do that. The SNP won’t seek a direct mandate for independence under Sturgeon’s leadership even with 50% +1 of the popular vote at a GE.

      If there’s a candidate that does seek a mandate for independence, vote for them.

      If there is none. Abstain.
      ——————————

      The people of Scotland are sovereign, not Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP; not the SNP.

      Learn the lessons of history: it was the Scottish political / ruling class that shafted the common people in 1707.
      ——————————-
      If the SNP lose enough seats at the next GE, Nicola will probably lose the leadership of the SNP. The YES movement will be the powerbrokers in Scotland, not the FM or leader of the SNP.
      —————————————–

      We need an Independence party like the SNP pre-2000, not a colonial administration SNP whose primary goal is woke politics under devolution.

    335. Terry callachan says:

      I feel sorry for you Colin Alexander, you want Scottish independence but if it’s not done the way you think it should be done you tell people not to vote at all , that my friend is a Tory trait , that is why so many young people do not vote ,they have been brainwashed into thinking that if the not done the way they think it should be done just don’t vote.

      Not voting ,does not change things
      It never has
      What it does is leaves those who encouraged you not to vote , in charge and in control.

      Poor lad

    336. Colin Alexander says:

      Did voting 56 SNP MPs get us independence? No.

      Did voting 35 SNP MPs get us independence? No.

      Did voting SNP keep Scotland in the EU? That remains uncertain.

      What has voting for SNP Westminster MPs since 2000 achieved?

      Nothing, except confirm an SNP MP at WM is just as pointless as a Labour MP etc from Scotland at WM.

    337. Cubby says:

      October 2020 ( that’s next year for the hard of reading )

      Wings post says ” I told you that there wouldnt be a Scottish independence referendum in 2020 ”

      Bob Mack says told you so.

      Colin Alexander says I have been telling you that the SNP are rubbish for centuries.

      Al – Stuart replies to Bob Mack I agree Bob. Been saying the same myself.

      Mist001 says everyone in the SNP are ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

      Bob Mack says when is the Wings party starting up your Lordship of Independence Stu.

      Then silence – everyone else has gone.

      As it seems to be in vogue to post Doom and gloom posts. I thought I would have a go at one to keep down the spirits of the Doom and gloom merchants. Hope you enjoyed it and no need to thank me for making such an effort to keep you in your default position of “we’re doomed I tell you doomed”.

      The only thing that will be doomed is Wings if you keep up your crap.

    338. Terry callachan says:

      Old Pete 1032….

      I keep reminding myself that in 2014 a majority of Scottish people voted in favour of independence.
      Many of the people from overseas who voted against Scottish independence have left Scotland.

      Of course many newcomers have arrived, I do not think the newcomers that have arrived will vote for Scottish independence because they see their opportunity to work/study in Scotland as being gifted to them by Westminster/England.
      We can try gentle persuasion.

      Those still here from 2014 I think will mostly vote for Scottish independence if they are from the EU
      Those from other countries I think not and again all we can do is gentle persuasion.

      Those from rest of U.K. nearly all voted against Scottish independence 2014 and I think will do so again , gentle persuasion worth a go but won’t work .

      Those Scottish people who voted against Scottish independence 2014 I think are our best chance of moving into the YES camp especially ex Labour voters , those who vote Tory I think we have less chance because they are voting for money reasons and not identity reasons.
      Lib Dem’s I think will be the same as the tories they are just a bit lighter on some Tory policies but every bit as anti Scottish independence as the Tories.

      This I believe is why the rise in the number of YES voters has been slow.
      There s just such a large percentage of our population who are from other parts of UK or from overseas outside EU or Tory/Lib dem money not identity voters.
      I would say they make up about thirty percent forty percent of our population

      I believe that because of this we could never ever ever get more than 60% voting yes and to do that would take every previous yessir and every previous labour NO voter, fat chance.

      I hope we get over 50% because of the shift in ex labour NOs to YES.

    339. Terry callachan says:

      Colin voting SNP has moved us closer to independence since 2000.
      We nearly got it 2014
      We are even closer now than 2014

      Now really is not the time to change what we do
      I agree it’s slow progress
      But to progress
      We are nearly there
      We will have another indyref soon
      It will be make or break

      Hang in please vote for Indy
      Keep your feelings in a place that allows you to possibly move someone else from NO to YES
      You have the knowledge
      Use it to assist increasing the number of yessers

    340. Mist001 says:

      Does anyone else think that Sturgeon and the SNP are hoping for a hung parliament at the forthcoming GE where it’ll be claimed that was the strategy all along?

    341. kapelmeister says:

      A December GE could well leave John Lamont as the only Scottish Tory in London. The old Mud number ‘Lonely This Christmas’ would be Lamont’s lament.

    342. Baldeagle58 says:

      O/T, but I was sad to see this posted on Nana’s Links page when I checked it after returning from holiday…. 🙁
      Her Links will be sadly missed, and I’m sure all Wingers would join me in wishing her the best of Luck for the future.

      Thank you, Nana. For everything….

      Well, we have tried our best in order to provide this free service, but due to lack of page hits and low numbers of commenters, we do not think this service is appreciated sufficiently to make it worthwhile continuing.

      Thank you to everyone who did bother to get in touch and special thanks to the site host for providing a platform. Hopefully some of what I’ve linked to over the years on Wings and on here will have been of some use.

    343. Colin Alexander says:

      Manifesto challenge to SNP:

      50% +1 votes = mandate to dissolve the Union

      Or

      YES voters abstain.

    344. Republicofscotland says:

      Labour MP Jim Fitzpatrick mocked for voting for Johnson’s Brexit deal without reading a single word of it. Typical of Labour in general.

      Fitzpatrick openly admitted that he had been too honest, a first and last for him and Westminster politicians in general I think.

    345. James Barr Gardner says:

      I have been voting now for over 50 years, I have never missed a vote ! ABSTAINING IS A LIEBORE TRAIT ! Young People if you want a real meaningful Future, get involved ! get voting ! VOTE FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE ! ENGLAND get out of Scotland !

    346. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      Voting SNP achieved nothing?. Cant agree.

      Voting SNP has helped many Scots to avoid Westminster imposed austerity.They have an unsurpssed domestic record here in Scotland.

      I think the planning for Indy 2 is flawed, but we shall see.

    347. Heart of Galloway says:

      There was something else from last night’s coverage on the two votes in the HoC.

      On Newsnight – and I paraphrase here – correspondent Nicholas Watt said one Tory line of attack in the upcoming general election would be that Jeremy Corbyn would be supporting two referendums – EURef2 and IndyRef2.

      That line was repeated on BBC news this morning – confirming suspicions that a direct line is operating between No 10 and select “pet” reporters in order to frame the GE debate before it has even started.

      The meme of Milliband in Alex Salmond’s top pocket will be reprised – only this time with Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon as the players.

      As I stated above, there is an absolute slant towards “getting Brexit done” at the BBC, as evidenced by last night’s gruesomely rigged vox pop of Europhobic pensioners in that bastion of international goodwill, Scunthorpe.

      Some very malevolent forces appear to be pulling the strings and the state broadcaster’s deliberate and wilful refusal to allow viewers to hear a single word of Ian Blackford’s speech yesterday is part of their agenda.

      My bet for the election date? Sources tell me December 5 or 12.

    348. RobertTheTruth says:

      October 2025

      Vote SNP 1 and 2, they are our only hope – Ken500

      ‘Well said’

      Here’s a funny story mocking anyone who disagrees with me unrelated to anything above the line – DrJim

      ‘Great comment’

      ‘I will make it my life’s mission to hunt down anyone I think is a Britnat on an online forum’ – geeo

      ‘Fantastic comment’

      ‘We will gain our Independence because of a Treaty signed between the Pope in the 14th century and a few ‘robber Barons’ You are all ignorant.’ – Auld Puffers

      ‘Superb commment.’

      ‘Why are you so amazing, Nicola?’ – Ghillie

      ‘What a great positive comment, how can anyone doubt the SNP?’

      And so on and so on…if the SNP mafia have their way

    349. defo says:

      Do keep up Robert.
      They’re mostly all gone.

      Snide comment’s really help us reach ‘our’ goal.

    350. callmedave says:

      Blackford again harangues Boris amidst a crescendo of tory noise and is dismissed out of hand regarding Scottish matters.

      Boris alludes to an early GE and then lies about the services and tax rates and all things Scottish and then reminds us all about the extra Barnett consequential upcoming of 1.2 £Bn while he fails to mention the £Bn’s extracted from Scotland to the WM coffers.

      But, according to some, best not vote for the SNP or abstain… well that’ll be a good idea.

      Anybody in Scotland watching that should be in know doubt about who to vote for and hustle down to the polling station quick when called.
      ———————————————————–

      Oh! Now it’s apples and all things ‘British’ rotting away in fields. Wonder why?

    351. callmedave says:

      Jings! I know how to spell no really I do!

    352. Ghillie says:

      R the Truth (seriously?! 🙂 )

      I never said that!

      Absolutely no need to ask our First Minister why she is so amazing.

      She just is 🙂 🙂 🙂

    353. Ghillie says:

      Cubby, glad you gave Mr Alex a sensible answer, saved me some time.

    354. Jack Murphy says:

      Just a reminder to all Wings readers that Indyref2.scot link at top of Wings Page is now at:

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/

      Taking a close look at the role of the Mainstream Media in Scotland.

      Cheers to one and all.

    355. Ghillie says:

      OT

      Unite are trying to have Ian Murray deselected.

      Ian, the only Labour MP in Scotland.

      Edinburgh South, hardly the heartland of Unite members.

      Interesting times indeed.

    356. Mist001 says:

      What about…………if a GE is called and Alex Salmonds trial is running right through the middle of it all? It’s not going to look too good for the SNP.

    357. Ghillie says:

      Sorry, Terry – thankyou for the above!

    358. @Baldeagle58,

      sad news,

      thank her for her hard work,a true patriot for Scotland`s Independence,

      her links were much appreciated on this site,

      it was always informative to read the links and were a good distraction from the `concern trolls` that infest the site,

      hopefully she will return.

    359. defo says:

      mist
      Why?

    360. Gary45% says:

      Mist001@12.48
      Have you seriously just realised this? Its been the establishment plan all along.

    361. Mist001 says:

      @ Gary45%

      It means that the GE was planned before any suggestion of one was made by Johnson and in turn, that brings us back to SNP planning. What are they going to do to combat this? Surely their idea is not just to appear in the media with constant rebuffals of whatever is said which I must admit, is what I fully expect it to be.

    362. Ghillie says:

      Shug @ 10.45 am

      That is a very important point!

      And is one of probably many reasons that Boris Trump tried to rush through his deal without the chance for scrutiny.

      Dear knows what he is doing to shaft the English farmers on top of robbing them of their mainland European skilled workers.

      BUT we can be sure that Scotland’s farmers of every type will suffer to the point of loosing their farms altogether.

      And our fisherfolk all around Scotland’s coasts will be sickened too.

      Nicola Sturgeon and the Welsh First Minister are demanding the right for MPs and the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments to have ample time to thoroughly scrutinise the content of Trump Junior’s deal.

      I think Boris will be getting it back with an over generous F- !

    363. kapelmeister says:

      The court date in November for Salmond’s case is only a preliminary hearing. No evidence will be heard. It’s merely to establish that the prosecution and the defence are ready to proceed to the trial. A trial would be early next year.

    364. Ghillie says:

      Jack Murphy @ 12.46 pm

      Thankyou for the link 🙂

      Am popping over for a wee look in =)

      Hopefully Nana will be busy for us again soon on Indyref2 =) but do wish her links were still here too – kept us all up to date!

    365. Ghillie says:

      Oh, and Mist001, watch and be amazed 🙂

    366. defo says:

      kapelmeister
      Ta
      Saved me the trouble
      I think those who are salivating over Eck’s stitch up, hoping for gain, are going to be sorely disappointed. On 2 counts.

    367. Sinky says:

      BBC tv lunch time news fails to report Boris Johnson’s comments that Scotland’s Parliament doesn’t have say over Brexit despite that it has to pass legislative consent.

      Sheer pro uk propaganda by omission

    368. Breeks says:


      defo says:
      23 October, 2019 at 1:30 pm
      kapelmeister
      Ta
      Saved me the trouble
      I think those who are salivating over Eck’s stitch up, hoping for gain, are going to be sorely disappointed. On 2 counts.

      I get the uneasy feeling we are all being stitched up, and have been for some considerable time. Somebody somewhere reasons it’s politic for Scotland to suffer Brexit rather than avoid it.

      Time will tell whether that’s trying to nudge a stubborn swing in the polls after seeing how horrible Brexit is, or if it’s latent hostility to Europe from the Brexiteers and EFTA brigade, with Scotland’s place in Europe considered acceptable collateral damage.

      I hope that strategist has really done their homework and has answers ready for the legions of disgruntled YES voters who are thoroughly disgusted with the SNP going AWOL throughout Brexit negotiations, and missing one open goal after another.

      All chums for IndyRef2 though aye?…. hostile silence.

    369. Jack Murphy says:

      Sinky at 1:40pm.

      Patience my friend. Patience.

      All will be revealed on BBC Reporting Scotland tonight.
      Scotland expects…

    370. manandboy says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      23 October, 2019 at 10:32 am
      manandboy says:
      For Heavens sake Scotland, why oh why did the governing party not listen to the warnings of Stuart Campbell? Why did the SNP close down any “Plan B” debate at last week’s conference?

      Do tell me, ScotsRenewables, where and when did I say such a thing. I await with interest.

    371. dadsarmy says:

      It’s good to see Scot Goes Pop settling back to the normal excellent coverage of polls and ballots, hopefully Wings will go back to normal service soon as well.

      It won’t be long now.

    372. Abulhaq says:

      Bought and sold…
      I commend this to you.
      https://www.news18.com/news/india/william-dalrymple-agrees-with-amit-shahs-push-to-rewrite-history-but-theres-a-twist-2356083.html

      Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they die in the hands of politicians and businessmen.
      after Muhammad Iqbal.

    373. Cubby says:

      Heart of Galloway@12.04pm

      I think the word insular was created for the people of Scunthorpe.

    374. defo says:

      Breeks

      That could apply right across the western world mate.
      Orwell was a genius visionary.
      We’re fighting for our nation, and our sovereignty will be the linchpin, one way or another.

      What might have been, or could have been, mean nixie to me.
      We are constrained by our perceived reality.
      Right now, that means vote SNP, like them or not.
      Afterwards? I’ll see what’s on offer.

      n.b. Nobody is beyond criticism. Not yet anyway.

    375. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Scottish Renewables, I really don’t want to engage you in debate as we are miles apart and I believe we are not mutual fans!

      But your assertion that some of us unhelpfully write ‘future histories’ is utterly illogical when you preface that by trying to assuage and tell many of us who have deep concerns to keep quite, when you write that there is a Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, Plan D, Plan Unicorn etc.

      By definition, “a plan” WILL become the “future history”!

      But we have missed the plan. We have missed the goal. Rev., spelt it out clearly in LEVERS OF POWER.

      I do agree with some of what you write. We now have very little control in this process. Back to normal. Our Scottish MPs ignored at Westminster and a manure lorry full of disrespect.

      It is now absolutely clear that Boris’ puppet master Demonic Cumming and goodness knows who else at 10 Downing Street has GAMED the Hell out of this process.

      ScotRwn have you been reading any of the forensically researched articles that Stuart Campbell has published? Can you not see the end-game?

      Boris wants a five year premiership. Minimum. England will give Boris a 5 years as prime minister as reward for heroically trying to get BREXIT DONE at the imminent General Election?

      We in Scotland and the SNP get what we deserve.

      We really do have brilliant minds in Scotland. We have always punched above our weight on the world stage.

      Yet Boris the clown has bested our best political brains.

      They neutered Alec Salmond and the massive crowds that attended the great rallies after IndyRef2 he gifted Nicola have fizzled to a modest sized business like meeting with that embarrassment of a delegate from Oban waffling on.

      I still vote SNP. But if Keir Starmer gets made leader of Labour Party and someone of Tommy Shepard MPs standing returned to become Labour Leader in Scotland, I would at least think about returning to Labour.

      ScotRen, if you are right and I think you may be… that at least some in SNP high command read Wings, then they need to understand this. The MAIN reason the SNP got 56 seats at Westminster was tens of thousands of Labour voters were that disgusted with Tony Blair and Gordon Dinosaur that they joined the SNP en masse.

      If the SNP leadership do NOT get a grip very very soon, then too many former Labour voters who have been voting SNP for the last 6 to 10 years will simply get turned off of Scottish politics and IndyRef 2 wil be lost for 10 to 15 years!

    376. scotspatriot says:

      Dads army ….I hope so !
      Hing Together or Hing apart !!

    377. dadsarmy says:

      Okey-doke. Regards Legislative Consent Motions required, here’s this:

      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1186969965079007235

      PM said rather too candidly “The Scottish Parliament has no role in approving this deal” – errr, his WA Bill’s own explanatory notes list 17 instances where legislative consent motion required (last column, Yes)

      and ScotGov (Michael Russell) have put in a memo refusing legislative consent.

      That by the way is 126 pages of “EXPLANATORY NOTES”, not the Bill itself!

      Go down to Annex A on page 118.

      This may or may not be of interest to anyone or nobody, frankly.

      HELLO NOBODY ARE YOU READING THIS?

    378. James F. McIntosh says:

      Check out Gordon Ross today, quite interesting but don’t know if it will go anywhere. Be great if there is enough evidence to prosecute.

    379. dadsarmy says:

      @scotspatriot
      Indeed. Well, it is a difficult time, and perhaps intensive navel-gazing is better than studying the soles of ones feet, which tends to be quite awkward and even painful. Much better to get somebody else to do it for us!

    380. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      I was discussing UK General Elections for Westminster, not Scot Govt policies.

      SNP never form UK Govts. Never have lasting meaningful influence on UK Govt policies such as austerity.

      UK Govts imposed austerity has seriously affected Scotland, and her people despite attempts by the SNP to mitigate the effects of some policies such as the Bedroom Tax.

    381. ScotsRenewables says:

      manandboy –

      Sorry, mmisattributed quote – it was not you who said that

    382. Clapper57 says:

      I believe Blair McDougall is tweeting the following in response to Ian Blackford making distinction that Scotland is a country and London is not…in response to those who insist London should also get separate deal like NI if Scotland does :

      Blair’s tweet :

      “Just about sums up nationalism: I don’t care about people living in London because they don’t have a flag”.

      Well to be pedantic…all regions in Scotland voted Remain however some boroughs in London did NOT they voted Leave..the boroughs were Barking and Dagenham, Bexley, Sutton, Havering and Hillingdon ….so hey flags aside…that kinda gives more strength to argument for Scotland RATHER than London to get same/similiar deal as NI…or alternatively…get the best deal independence and remaining in EU…..

      As to other Remain areas in England …well..like London they come under ‘England’….that is their misfortune to be lumped in with all of the cities and towns in their country England who voted Leave/Exit…for them it is Brexit means Exit….

      Scotland should and does have an alternative….eventually.

      Ps BTW Blair…London does have a flag…White and red I believe…also use the red white and blue….cannot miss it…lots flying just now outside Houses Of Parliament IN LONDON ( have been for last three years plus )….Blair should visit an optician as his vision is obviously tunneled…..ain’t that the truth…Lol

    383. Colin Alexander says:

      I voted SNP at the Euros.

      Yesindyref2 (remember him?), debated with me, and persuaded me to give the SNP another chance despite SNP career politician Alyn Smith being top choice of the SNP. I did, on the toss of a coin.

      I admit my heart leapt with joy when I saw that map of Scotland covered in golden yellow.

      What did it achieve? Nothing. Weeks later it’s announced Mr Smith is after a WM seat.

      That was the final straw for me.

    384. kapelmeister says:

      The Tories need Brexit to happen or they’re finished politically in England. The SP can refuse consent to the WAB and back up that refusal in the courts. Nicola can then tell Johnson that consent to WAB can be given in return for a Section 30 and an agreement to abide by the result of indyref2.

      The SP and SG can hold out, especially as the Tories’ desire to revoke devolution will become glaringly evident and a refusal to endorse WAB will be popularly seen as a defence of Holyrood. The Tories nerve will go and their overwhelming need for Brexit will supply the s30 and the agreement. Johnson will arrogantly (but wrongly) assume No can win indyref2 anyway.

      This could even be called plan B.

    385. Iain 2 says:

      We need to be a normal free country not returning to being a colony of the brittish empire.
      We should focus on being free and once indy is achieved we can worry about who the government is.
      Indy is close, hold our nerve.

    386. manandboy says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      23 October, 2019 at 3:57 pm
      manandboy –

      Sorry, mmisattributed quote – it was not you who said that

      Cheers for that, ScotsRenewables.

    387. kapelmeister says:

      Colin Alexander

      Give it a rest, there’s a good wee man/wee group of folk.

    388. defo says:

      Watch u don’t misgender him/her/it kapelmeister, or the thought police will come for u. 😉

    389. kapelmeister says:

      Defo

      Just think you’re someone else and the thought police are thrown into confusion.

    390. defo says:

      Fancy teaming up?
      I’ll do the set up, you can knock them out K.
      We need a laugh round here.

    391. kapelmeister says:

      Sure Defo. I’ve always reckoned humour is the royal road to independence.

    392. defo says:

      ps If ‘he’ is an amalgam, a confection if you will, my money is it’s Colin Fox & Alex Bell. A Naaasty combo.

    393. defo says:

      It works bud.
      My ‘Flipper’ brought that great socialist millionaire down a peg or twa, and set up many’s another gag.

      Back to work, the bloody wall doesn’t seem to be building itself.

    394. John says:

      @Al Stewart
      So your true Labour then Al , good to know for clarity’s sake .
      Me , I am for independence, I don’t care how we get there but one thing I do know , it won’t be by voting Labour , Fib Dums or Fascists.

    395. Col.Blimp IV says:

      defo says:

      “Back to work, the bloody wall doesn’t seem to be building itself.”

      Is that the one from the Solway to the Tweed?

    396. ahundredthidiot says:

      Brexiteers can look on the bright side – 39 less immigrants.

      Driver is fucked, and quite rightly so, living his lavish life style will nail him guilty as sin.

      Goddamn tragedy.

    397. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Well, peeps, Phantom Power Films, who produced the “Journey To Yes” films, and “The Return of 10000 Flags For Yes” are both struggling to reach their targets. Can you help them reach their goals?

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/future-scotland

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes

    398. RM says:

      The SNP government should tell the people of Scotland how much power we actually have, if they don’t know themselves, they should start finding out exactly where Scotland stand, there’s something missing why cant the people of Scotland know exactly what’s happening in and too our country.

    399. defo says:

      Col.Blimp IV says: at 7:00 pm
      defo says:

      “Back to work, the bloody wall doesn’t seem to be building itself.”

      “Is that the one from the Solway to the Tweed?”

      No Col., but i’ll do you a good price, if you can arrange payment in €’s.Cash.

    400. vlad (not that one) says:

      Just recovering from watching A Neill’s interview of Robert Buckland. I do not normally have much time for Andrew, but Buckland came over as a personification of a slimy slug up the grease pole.

      Andrew seems a shiny knight in comparison. If you can find this on the net and fancy a boak, go for it.

    401. jfngw says:

      Time to have a weighting multiplier factor in the next indyref, the longer you have left the higher you quotient (e.g. over 70 = 1, under 25 = 5, 35 – 35 = 4, 45 – 55 = 3, 55 – 70 = 2). After all those that have to live longer with the consequences should have more input.

    402. cynicalHighlander says:

      @jfngw

      In one word Bollocks.

    403. jfngw says:

      @cynicalHighlander

      Well I have an alternative, culling over 55’s at the polling station entrance.

    404. Colin Alexander says:

      Rev Stu Campbell

      Stirling seat: Tory MP Stephen Kerr, majority 148.

      That’s the one to go for.

      The SNP big shots have parachuted in the loathed woke carpetbagger Alyn Smith MEP, over the head of the former SNP MP Steven Paterson, who was much liked by local indy supporters.

      So, there you go, Stu: take a Tory’s seat and don’t let a woke carpetbagger get it instead.

    405. Graeme says:

      The only thing the Rev would achieve by standing in a Westminster seat is split the SNP vote and let a Unionist in but then you already know that don’t you Colin ?

    406. Colin Alexander says:

      Graeme

      The Tory already got in.

      SNP will shed more votes with Alyn Smith as their candidate.

      Stu can take the Tory’s seat if the indy support gets behind him.

    407. Phronesis says:

      The EU has been good for NI. Promoting peace and the wellbeing of the next generation.
      European Territorial Cooperation (ETC) Programmes focuses on:
      • shared education
      • children and young people
      • shared space and services and
      • building positive relations at the local level

      https://www.finance-ni.gov.uk/publications/2014-2020-eu-structural-and-investment-fund-programmes

      The EU has been good for Scotland, funding ‘smart sustainable and inclusive growth’ The European Structural and Investment Funds (ESIFs)

      http://www.employabilityinscotland.com/policy/european-structural-funds/

      Where does Scotland’s future lie? In the wasteland of the British State that is at war with itself, dehumanising and ripping a hole in everyone’s soul;
      ‘I think that predatory capitalism has ripped a hole not just in economies — but right down in our souls. It’s inequality, unfettered greed, unfairness, and
      dehumanisation are sparking an ethical implosion’

      https://eand.co/the-ethical-collapse-at-the-end-of-predatory-capitalism-f03f22b6cd86

      Scotland the country (not a shire of Kent nor suburb of Lincoln) should forge ahead with its own agenda, fighting to protect the soul of its democracy, institutions and human rights – an independent and ethical voice within the EU-that is where Scotland’s future lies.

      ‘There can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the way in which it treats its children’ Nelson Mandela.

      https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-maternal-infant-nutrition-survey-2017/
      https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Child-Health/
      https://www.gov.scot/policies/early-education-and-care/
      https://www.playscotland.org/play-strategy/
      https://www.gov.scot/children-and-families/
      https://www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-disabled-children-young-people-and-their-families/
      https://www.gov.scot/publications/child-chance-tackling-child-poverty-delivery-plan-2018-22/
      https://www.gov.scot/policies/social-security/best-start-grant/
      https://www.gov.scot/publications/tackling-child-poverty-delivery-plan-first-year-progress-report-2018-19/pages/6/
      https://www.gov.scot/publications/local-housing-strategy-guidance-2019/
      https://www.gov.scot/groups/homelessness-prevention-and-strategy-group/
      https://www.gov.scot/policies/refugees-and-asylum-seekers/
      https://www2.gov.scot/youthworkstrategy
      https://www.gov.scot/publications/children-young-peoples-mental-health-task-force-recommendations/

    408. cynicalHighlander says:

      @ Graeme says:
      23 October, 2019 at 9:35 pm

      The only thing the Rev would achieve by standing in a Westminster seat is split the SNP vote and let a Unionist in but then you already know that don’t you Colin ?

      And where did you imagine that the Rev suggest that twaddle.ffs

      Some of the posters here are so far up their own backsides that prove them as imbeciles.

    409. Graeme says:

      cynicalHighlander says:
      23 October, 2019 at 9:43 pm

      @ Graeme says:
      23 October, 2019 at 9:35 pm

      “And where did you imagine that the Rev suggest that twaddle.ffs”

      ———————

      I didn’t say the Rev suggested it

    410. Colin Alexander says:

      “split the SNP vote and let a Unionist in”

      Ah, entitlement politics rears its ugly head again.

      The SNP Establishment equivalent of Labour’s old Establishment entitlement line:

      “Voting SNP splits the Labour / anti-Tory vote and let’s the Tories in”.

    411. Elmac says:

      @Colin Alexander

      Your profuse idiotic “comments” are intended to be a plague of biblical proportions on this site but instead you provide much hilarity. Please keep on as you are achieving the polar opposite of what you want and you must be a severe drain on the budget of the 77th brigade. When will they do a cost benefit analysis of your expensive witterings?

    412. jfngw says:

      @Colin Alexander

      So good of you to volunteer to finance the Wings candidate at Stirling, it might be a bit costly, all those pamphlets and delivery costs. Anyway I assume you were volunteering to finance this, or were you expecting others to pick up the tab.

    413. cynicalHighlander says:

      @ Graeme

      I appologise as it was my misreadinding so sorry, it should of been directed at coco but this whole GRA nonsense has brought this to the fore. Appology again.

    414. Graeme says:

      @ cynicalHighlander

      Apology accepted 🙂

    415. Colin Alexander says:

      Oh dear.

      Even the SNiPers loathe Alyn Smith and yet I’m supposed to be the idiot for pointing out the SNP selecting Mr Smith, is gonnae gift the seat to the Tories.

    416. cynicalHighlander says:

      @ Graeme

      Thank you.

    417. Elmac says:

      @ Colin Alexander

      Sergeant/lieutenant/captain, or is it all three? We do not want a yes echo chamber but we do want an honest forum to discuss what matters in the politics of Scotland without the pollution of an oppressive state mechanism. We know who you are and what you represent. All regular contributors to this site know where you are coming from and treat your rubbish with the contempt it deserves.

      Much as we can all laugh at your blatant attempts at disruption perhaps the time has come for your current nom de plume to be kicked off of this site. No doubt you will ooze out from under another stone with a new persona but you will be instantly recognisable.

      Scotland will be free of your vampire state in the near future and your part in prolonging the subjugation of our nation will not be forgotten. Suggest you stay under your stone.

    418. Colin Alexander says:

      Elmac

      77th Brigade are the small fry. Squaddies with laptops.

      It’s MI5 that are running the show at SNP headquarters.

      Why else do you think the SNP banned whistleblower Craig Murray from their conferences?

    419. Elmac says:

      @ Colin Alexander

      You are beneath contempt.

    420. Dan says:

      Colin Alexander says: at 11:54 am

      Manifesto challenge to SNP:

      50% +1 votes = mandate to dissolve the Union

      Or

      YES voters abstain.

      You’ve been pushing the 50% + 1 for a fair while now.
      As I am sure you are aware, but some of the readership may need reminded or pointed out to them; the voter franchise for a UK General Election does not include non UK EU Nationals (Irish can vote as can other qualifying Commonwealth citizens), and the younger 16 & 17 year old Scots.
      That being the case it makes it considerably harder to pass the threshold you suggest because of Westminster gerrymandering the voter franchise to eliminate the demographics of the population that are now most likely to threaten their retention of power and control.

      Therefore a UK GE result is not a genuine reflection of the overall wishes of the normal more inclusive Scottish voting electorate.

    421. Cubby says:

      One day it is Bob Mack all over a thread the next day it is Colin Alexander. Nothing worth reading as I just scroll on by them and others like Mr Truth. Wings is getting pretty grim.

      If the friends of Wings are going to come riding to the rescue at the last minute like the cavalry in an old cowboy movie then can I suggest its starting to look like the last minute and the cavalry best be on the horizon.

    422. Dan says:

      Santa – “What do you want for Christmas?”

      Me – “A Porsche”

      Santa – “Be realistic…”

      Me – “OK ‘Brexit’ completed”

      Santa – “Hmm, what colour Porsche do you want?”

    423. defo says:

      Shock news

      Corrupt to the core R@pe clause lands on her little chubby feet.

      https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1187114018466664448

    424. Colin Alexander says:

      Dan

      The SNP got around 50% in 2015.

      If they don’t get 50% +1, so what? it does not affect the 2016 indyref mandate.

      It’s a free shot for indy, as Stu would put it.

      Worse case scenario: SNP lose most of their MPs, so what? They achieve nothing at WM anyway.

    425. Gary45% says:

      Colin Alexander@whenever.
      Time for your Horlicks son. Have another try tomorrow.
      Night Night.

    426. Graf Midgehunter says:

      BDTT says:

      “Well, peeps, Phantom Power Films, who produced the “Journey To Yes” films, and “The Return of 10000 Flags For Yes” are both struggling to reach their targets. Can you help them reach their goals?

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/future-scotland

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes
      —————–

      Two very deserving causes who are fighting Scotland’s corner on shoestrings and struggling to make it.

      So a question for everyone:

      Would anyone have anything against it if the Revs “Fighting Fund” topped up the missing sums necessary to get them home?

      If the SNP keep refusing to do battle, when will the WBBs ever get published. Anyone know?

      BTW, I KNOW there are probably some others who could ALSO need some help, but….. where to start and where to stop??

      PS, the resident trolls, 77th buggers and other weirdos need not bother to reply. 🙂

    427. James Barr Gardner says:

      Colin Alexander tell us how many folk have died in Scotland since 2011, the vast majority being elderly who believed in King and Country,believed the newspapers they bought, thought the Sun shone oot the BBC’s arse and the Labour Party was the best thing since sliced breid an’ awe the toffs voted Tory. Progress, The INTERNET, Climate Change, Brexit ! THE WORLD has changed the folk who don’t get this are consigned to history !!!!!!!!!

    428. Alex Clark says:

      A blast from the past.

      Thepnr says:
      13 July, 2019 at 9:13 pm

      The same people have been screaming for a second Independence referendum pretty much since Sept 2017 and again that it had to be held by September 2018.

      If Nicola Sturgeon had listened to them then the most probable result would have been another No vote and a third referendum would be a long time in coming.

      There is absolutely no one who could deny that a Yes vote in any upcoming referendum is much more likely to result in a victory for Yes than it ever was 9 months ago.

      The same people come on Wings everyday greeting and whinging about the tardiness of Nicola Sturgeon in failing to call for a referendum. They totally ignore the fact that she has been consistent in her statements of when she believed the next referendum should be.

      “When the terms of Brexit are clear” has always been her position.

      We’re almost but not quite there now and that is plain for everyone to see and so you have had a second statement that the next referendum will “most likely” be in the second half of 2020 and a referendum bill is in the process of going through Holyrood in order to put that in place.

      Nicola Sturgeon has been absolutely right despite those that come on here telling you she is wrong. If you can’t see that there is a greater chance of becoming Independent with Boris Johnson as PM then you’re either a liar or an idiot.

      Patience has proven to be a virtue, the best laugh of all will come when in all likelihood we are still members of the EU after Oct 31st. The gammon in England will explode into great big globby pieces all over out politics and it is then that Scotland will act.

      The moaners on here will still moan, fuck them we have our Independence to win and that means giving all the support you can.

    429. Bill Hume. says:

      Hmm. I’ve had a good day here in the Upper Irvine Valley. I’m happy, my wife is happy and my dog is happy. The weather could have been better but my house is warm and I’ve had a rather nice dinner (cooked by myself may I add).
      The SNP are still doing a good job considering the tightrope they are negotiating. I suppose a few wobbles on the rope are to be expected but nothing serious in my opinion.

      Compared to the seething cesspit of Westminster, in Scotland all is calm.

      Independence is coming, hopefully quite soon so I am at peace with the world.

      Ignore the trolls on here…….all is well

    430. ScotsRenewables says:

      TT says:

      “Well, peeps, Phantom Power Films, who produced the “Journey To Yes” films, and “The Return of 10000 Flags For Yes” are both struggling to reach their targets. Can you help them reach their goals?

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/future-scotland

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes

      I for one would support this if tehre is money in the fund right now. We can have another fundraiser for the WBB if necessary when it is time.

      (Which I feel in my water will be very soon)

      Bill Hume and Alex Clark, good posts. Brexit is driving us all nuts, we need to chill a little bit. Our time is coming, very soon.

    431. Dan says:

      @Colin Alexander at 10:48 pm

      Aye, I get that. But I feel you should take the time to acknowledge and incorporate that specific information relating to the eligible voter franchise when you proffer that suggestion.
      Plus you could also add how you suggest the YES movement should deal with the MSM onslaught of “no demand for Indy” or “loss of Indy mandate” should the SNP’s vote share come up short of 50% + 1.
      We Indy-minded folks could shout till we are blue in oor coupons about the technicalities that there was a restricted voter franchise and that the result is not an accurate appraisal of Scottish views, but as broadcasting is reserved, and with a prevalence of pro union newsshitepapers, we know that we would be up against it trying to highlight that particular point across the less politically aware in our society.

      ————–

      I’d also like to add my thanks and best wishes to Nana for the incredible efforts she has put in for the Indy cause with the huge amount of informative links she posted over the years.
      It was very disappointing to see the frustration she and Stu were having with her link posting on Wings reaching a point where it became a seemingly unresolvable situation. It’s a great pity and imo a detriment to the site that this could not have been worked out amicably.

      I lurked for a looong time and spent many an hour reading the btl commentary and diverse links over the years to better educate myself on the vast array of matters relating to the positive aspects of Scotland freeing itself from London Rule.

      I’ve only read a half dozen or so comments acknowledging Nana’s efforts.
      Suggest it might be a grand time for those lurking to pitch in btl and express their thanks to her for her past endevours.

    432. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      You stil! dont understand satire do you ?

    433. ScotsRenewables says:

      I’ve only read a half dozen or so comments acknowledging Nana’s efforts.
      Suggest it might be a grand time for those lurking to pitch in btl and express their thanks to her for her past endevours.

      Hear hear.

    434. Footsoldier says:

      I think this site would be considerably enhanced by imposing a restriction of 2 posts per day and a limit to the number of words.

      I don’t really want to read a 2 way argument from the same people all the time.

    435. Capella says:

      Hi Alex – good to see you posting. Nicola and Mark Drakeford gave a positive statement today in Westminster while Ian Blackford and Stewart Hosie tore a few more strips off Boris Johnston in PMQS. All on message.

      I agree about timing. The call at the SNP conference was to be ready. Opportunity may be sudden and fleeting. A GE in December is likely. So many critics on this site seem to miss the preparations that are ongoing. Maybe just as well!

    436. ben madigan says:

      I’d like to join with those of you who are expressing thanks to Nana for her incredible work in providing the links over such a long time.
      I visited them daily here and then on the other site and am very sorry she no longer feels able to continue with this project. It enriched us all tremendously as it made such a great contribution to our political knowledge and awareness.

      On another note, here is the last episode of the BBC serial on the Hidden Truth of the Troubles, together with illustrations of how the UK Govts and Unionist administrations have fundamentally violated the provisions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. Its moniker “Perfidious Albion” is well earned!

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/10/23/episode-7-hidden-history-of-the-troubles-the-good-friday-agreement/

    437. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander @ 16:06,

      Another day, another “final straw”. Ho hum.

      You’re like a stuck scratchy old 78rpm record, Lord Hee Haw, and the more you write, the more you give yourself (yourselves?) away.

    438. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Alex Clark @ 23:10,

      A pleasure to see you back. The only thing I would (continue to) disagree about is that the promised Autumn of next year looks way too late to me. Even trying to allow for the ongoing guddleathon that is Brexit. We might get another delay to next Jan, but that’s likely to be the very last. We’ll see.

      But as Capella hints, I think Nicola & Co might themselves be prepared to get out of the starting block rather earlier, as circumstances befit. We may well get that S.30 request before year’s end, for example. But probably after a UKGE, assuming Labour don’t continue to funk it.

      And there’s a rather appropriate anniversary coming up at the beginning of April, is there not…?

    439. dadsarmy says:

      I think it’s a bit like walking in to a crowded bar for a teatime pint on the way home. You stand at the bar with your pint, surrounded by loads of groups of noisy chattering people – and tune in to one or two conversations for the fun of it. That’s with the music blaring as well, and not forgetting since it’s happy hour everyone talks louder. When you’re used to it you can be quite good at it, really.

      The Unionists are kind of like me or you standing at that bar trying to tune into our conversations, and see if any one of us actually knows something so they can find out what exactly is going on. One of us might have some real gen on it all, and then they can be prepared.

      OUR JOB IS TO MAKE AS MUCH NOISE AS POSSIBLE SO THE UNIONISTS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE!

    440. Cubby says:

      6th of April 2020

    441. twathater says:

      Thank you NANA for your unstinting and voluminous links on WOS and Indyref2 , I must confess after reading most of the posts and arguments on here and other sites I was usually too drained or knackered to further engage brain ( what’s left of it )to interpret or dissect pro or anti links

      I further confess that I am one of many who have let you down by not making the effort to appreciate your endeavors by visiting indyref2 infrequently

      Please be aware that no disrespect is meant by my laziness you WERE and ARE a greatly respected advocate and fighter for Scotland’s future generations and hopefully your reward will be independence for our country and nation
      Be Well NANA

    442. Liz g says:

      Alex…. Good to see you posting.

      Dadsarmay…. Like any of us would post the really jucy stuff on here. I don’t think any of us have the full picture any way,just different bits and pieces. But it’s so bloody hard not to say anything to cheer up trusted friend’s.
      Such is our burden 🙂

      And Yes if your reading Nana thank you so very much for all that you did and in advance for all that you’ll continue to do.

    443. dadsarmy says:

      @Liz g
      It’s all a shadow game, and of course the Rev is a master gamer. What you see is what you get – or is it?

      Funny thing is that if you play a shadow game you can hide the real one out in the open. And the whole idea of shadow gameplay was, as you’d expect, invented in Scotland.

      It’s clear BoJo has no idea what’s going on, Blackford trapped him with such an obvious ruse for instance. On the other hand I think BoJo has absolutely no interest in the Union.

    444. manandboy says:

      MONEY LAUNDERING IS BIG BUSINESS IN THE UK THANKS TO THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY BEING IN GOVERNMENT.
      And is part of the explanation of why the Tories are determined to stay there.

      Alexander Boris Defeffle Johnson PM will of course know nothing about this very lucrative financial industry at the heart of the English Establishment, the City of London.

      http://archive.fo/yqnlH

      How Britain can help you get away with stealing millions: a five-step guide
      Dirty money needs laundering if it’s to be of any use – and the UK is the best place in the world to do it. By Oliver Bullough.

      A taster:- “The scandal has been big news in Denmark and Estonia, but barely grazed public consciousness in the UK. This is strange, because Britain played a key role. All of the owners of the bank accounts that first aroused Wilkinson’s suspicions had their identity hidden behind corporate structures registered in the UK – including Lantana Trade LLP, the one that may have been connected to Putin. That means this is not just a Russian, Estonian or Danish scandal, but something far closer to home. In November, Wilkinson told a European parliament committee that the countries hosting these companies are just as culpable. “Worst of all is the United Kingdom,” he said. “The United Kingdom is an absolute disgrace.”

    445. manandboy says:

      In Ruth Davidson’s additional job with a London based lobbying company, we are reminded of how the Gravy Train works in UK politics, but we are also seeing the operation of a First Class carriage on the aforementioned Gravy Train.

      Ruthie is clearly in the First Class carriage, while, in contrast, Kezia Dugdale is a good bit lower down, eh, like in the guard’s van?

      Get elected, it’s the gateway, to easy money, a huge salary and generous expenses, a job of some kind for life, then temptations come your way, offers over the phone, greed starts to grow, then corruption, training available for candidates with no previous experience, taken under the wing, and soon unbridled ambition takes over. The voters are by this time far below and left behind, but sound bites are freely available to take care of them, there’s no stopping me now. I am a politician!

    446. Golfnut says:

      @ Manandboy

      I don’t know whether you picked up on Gordon Ross yesterday, an interesting development to say the least. Basically, a letter has been sent to Police Scotland detailing the money trail from America to Scotland ending up in Vote leave and Cambridge Analyticas coffers, undeclared during the the vote campaign, making it illegal. Anyhow worth looking at if you haven’t already seen it.

      Good to see you back Alex.

    447. manandboy says:

      Thanks, Golfnut, I’ll check Gordon out today as I have not tuned in to in D car for a few days.

    448. Breeks says:

      https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1186998206313316356

      Jesus wept.

      It’s a disgrace! Here! Here!

      It was shameful. Here! Here!

      So what are you gonna do now?

      Consider steps carefully when we have more clarity….

      Beyond fucking parody,

    449. Heart of Galloway says:

      Breeks@7.42am.

      Where, where?

    450. Dorothy Devine says:

      Breeks . what is beyond parody are the below the lines comments from the ignorant , inflamed unionists.

      A load of old guff that I wish I hadn’t read.

    451. Colin Alexander says:

      Dan

      Is it only Scotland that is not allowed to shape her own future at election times?

      Why shouldn’t the Union contract be up for renewal or cancellation at each and every election involving Scotland?

      That the SNP stopped making that the situation seems abnormal to me.

      It was the SNP who talked about once in a generation, not me or the other ordinary sovereign citizens.

      Ending the Union should be the only policy of the SNP at each and every WM election time.

    452. Colin Alexander says:

      Nana

      I was always very impressed by the information you found and listed in your links, when put on Wings.

      I did look at quite a few of them on Wings. I admit I stopped reading them when you put them on a different website and I apologise for that.

      Also, you conduct has always been a credit to the YES movement.

      A big thank you.

    453. Heart of Galloway says:

      Re my post of 12.04pm yesterday, it seems a Dec 5/12 GE is being widely predicted.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/10/23/eu-to-rule-on-brexit-extension-as-uk-faces-possible-election.html

      If this pans out the British nationalist media will do all in its power to cut the SNP down by lies, omission and slander.

      Dec 5 is only six weeks away. Whatever our differences an SNP advance is critical to winning IndyRef next year.

      Our enemies know this and there is no level below which they will stoop to destroy Scotland’s cause.

      Aux armes citoyens!!

    454. Abulhaq says:

      Scotland’s freedom and independence, how much is it worth?
      At the moment the cost seems set to minimum existential risk.
      Hope we have a nice day for it too.
      Dream on!

    455. manandboy says:

      I watched Nicola’s statement, as per Sky’s twitter account. Well done, Nicola.

      As for the abuse hurled at her BTL, it’s just more of the same Colonial abuse which England has been doing for centuries.

      England is a serial abuser of Scotland – and of every colony in the English Empire.

      Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson certainly upholds that tradition.

    456. Joe says:

      Ive got some news for you: The indy movement, the SNP and the Greens resemble more of a half arsed global socialist revolution than a real independence movement and people who can think are rightfully sceptical of the kind of shite policies and dumb rhetoric on display. I and many others are not interested in independence being used as a tool for socialists to advance their bullshit

    457. Colin Alexander says:

      It’s been assessed that 22 weeks would be the absolute minimum for a People’s Vote (PV) ( England decides again) EU Ref2 legislation to clear UK Parliament from when it’s introduced into Parliament.

      It’s likely that would only happen if it follows a GE and change in govt.

      The SNP back PV.

      That means if PV happened and UK Parliament again take time to decide what the result means, indyref2 with s30 held by Autumn 2020, is already looking unrealistic.

    458. ScotsRenewables says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      24 October, 2019 at 8:30 am

      Ending the Union should be the only policy of the SNP at each and every WM election time.

      How many MPs do you think they would get?

      Now might (not sure) just be the time to do that, but it would have been counter-productive in previous WM elections.

      You are very keen to suggest any and every policy which might reduce the SNP’s influence in Scottish politics. As they are the only political party whose primary/ultimate aim is independence I continue to find this a very strange attitude.

    459. mr thms says:

      Greenland is an autonomous part of Denmark. Using its ‘Home Rule’ powers it organised a referendum to leave the EU.

      Similarly the Faroes are part of Denmark and it has never joined the EU.

      When Ian Blackford appealed to the Speaker in yesterday’s PMQT the way he asked his question, suggested the Scottish government are considering other options with regard to Scotland getting a separate deal with the EU, now that the UK government’s WA bill has got a second reading.

    460. Joe says:

      If the indy movement wants to get solidly over the line it needs to drop some of the nonsense and attract people who dont fawn over Greta, dont retweet every ‘isnt Trump just Satan’ tweet to score social media likes, isnt pro mass 3rd world migration, isnt radical 3rd wave feminist and who saw the trans catastrophe coming years ago. But, I wont hold my breath.

    461. Lenny Hartley says:

      Nana, a big thanks for the links , sorry i never read them on the new site, i guess i have a routine when I get up, Face Boak, Email, Wos and wgd. Stuck in my ways , sorry.
      Alex good to see you back, apolgies wont be there in person on Friday but will be there in Spirit.

    462. Terry callachan says:

      The truth about
      Scotland’s tax
      Scotland’s education
      Scotland’s NHS

      but not as said by BJ

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/10/24/reporting-scotland-down-and-stv-let-his-outrageous-lies-about-the-snp-stand-unchallenged/

    463. Mist001 says:

      @ Joe

      “I and many others are not interested in independence being used as a tool for socialists to advance their bullshit”

      Hear, hear.

    464. Elmac says:

      @ ScotsRenewables

      Nothing strange about it. He (or they) is only doing his employers’ bidding. It is despicable what some people do for money.

    465. Abulhaq says:

      Davidson msp is of course doing nothing wrong.
      Unionism = what you can get away with.
      Keep a straight face and carry on, OK.
      The malodorous reek of Brit contumely in Scotland the gravely sick.
      Is there a surgeon in the house?

    466. Breeks says:


      Dorothy Devine says:
      24 October, 2019 at 8:16 am
      Breeks . what is beyond parody are the below the lines comments from the ignorant , inflamed unionists.

      A load of old guff that I wish I hadn’t read.

      Read it and channel your anger Dorothy. Those types are the same as the lowlifes spitting and hurling abuse at William Wallace as he was humiliated and tortured to death in front of a mob of them. Don’t get mad, it will just corrode and consume you. Get even. Get our Independence.

      Peter Bell is keeping me sane just now. He says pretty much what I’m thinking. Beyond that, it feels like Indy is dying. It needs leadership and isn’t getting it. I’m sick and tired of “thinking carefully” and demanding a choice rhetoric. It’s all hollow. It has no potency.

      https://peterabell.scot/

      I still think, with every fibre, that Joanna Cherry needs to seek formal clarification from the ECJ that Scotland can exercise its sovereign prerogative to revoke Article 50 Unilaterally.

      When they say yes, as I believe they would be obliged to, then everything changes, and Scotland sets about getting even, with serene dignity and indefatigable authority. We can ignore the protestations of Westminster just as they have ignored us.

      It’s just a question, but the answer is pivotal and the ramifications profound. Ask the godammed question Joanna. Lead us.

    467. Arthur C says:

      I too would like to thank Nana for her efforts over the years.
      Shame that this place is so boring now.

      Here are some new links posted on Indyref2 site forum new forum.

      https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/a-wee-bunch-of-links-to-digest-for-thursday-24th-october/

    468. defo says:

      R@pe clause needs to be hammered over her premature troughing.
      Again & again. No let up.
      This bounty she has gifted us, could see the leader of PF2 scuppered.
      Discredited before it even begins.

      Who’s her sub?

    469. Republicofscotland says:

      So there you have it in a nutshell, the PM has told that he’ll ignore Scotland’s concerns over Brexit, and go ahead and legislate on at least 17 devoved matters. Though the Scottish government actually believes that the WAB affects 44 devolved areas.

      Then we had Tory Andrew Brigden, say on Channel 4 news that one of the government’s top priorities would be to abolish the Supreme court.

      Make no mistake once we leave the EU Johnson and his government (If they win a GE) look set to dismantle Scotland’s power brick by brick.

      I say if a GE can (has been touted) held in December this year then a indyref can surely be held if need be next December. We must exit this union, or face serious consequences.

    470. Republicofscotland says:

      Reading Lesley Riddochs article in the National newspaper, and I must say she has a point, no matter how many SNP MPs we return to the House of Commons, they still or cant find a way to protect or assert the will of the Scottish people.

      The deck’s stacked the tables rigged the dice are loaded, whatever saying you prefer, we can’t do anything meaningful at Westminster to push the interests of Scotland.

      Sinn Fein had the right idea, for the WAB contains Henry VIII powers that can and will render Holyrood toothless in time.

    471. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Cubby,

      The reason I generally don’t reply to your posts is you fail to be truthful. You write…

      Al – Stuart replies to Bob Mack I agree Bob. Been saying the same myself.

      Cubby, I do not write like that, I do not talk like that. If you are going to miscall people at least quote them properly and stop putting your twisted words in their mouth to suit your own narrative.

      Your grumble appears to be that posters here are not all fanboys and fangirls to the SNP.

      I am here because I want Independence for Scotland.

      I am unhappy because the SNP are failing to secure Independnce. With the patience of a saint, Stuart Campbell rightfully points out and backs up with forensic detail and argument this very fact.

      Cubby you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension this is an “SNP-Only” website and even the slightest criticism of certain SNP ministers is heresy.

      Newsflash, may I quote the site owner please…

      Wings Over Scotland is a Scottish political website, which focuses particularly on the media – whether mainstream print and broadcast organisations or the online and social-network community – as well as offering its own commentary and analysis.

      Source: https://wingsoverscotland.com/about/

      Cubby if you want political sycophancy, maybe start your own website.

      If you need some comfort, I will buy you one of those SNP teddy bears just so you stay out of the road of those trying to secure IndyRef2.

      We are at past time for shoving the SNP bosses to do the job. Nicola and Ian Blackford promised me and thousands of others they would: secure IndyRef2 and deliver Scottish Independence. So Cubby, just to keep you and those who have assumed ownership of the views of everyone else telling me what I can and cannot post here, my treat to you with love and affection…

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/Teddy-Bear-Love-SNP-t-shirt/dp/B00XBZ5GEG

      Apologies if this appears blunt, but we have wasted years faffing around. The SNP have done a great job, especially under Alec Salmond. But Nicola is slipping inexorably into her FM comfort zone. Whilst and (you know who) have nobbled Wee Eck

      It would be hoped we ALL support the SNP and we ALL want Scottish Independence. But I for one am pure scunnered with he c@rp some folk post criticising those of whom are willing to put therir money where their mouth is and nudge the SNP high command into SECURING INDYRE2 instead of the endless squandering of our resources on the SNP trying to SAVE ENGLAND FROM BREXIT.

    472. Abulhaq says:

      From Peter A Bell’s blog.
      [Putting Brexit at the centre of Scotland’s cause has proved to be a very bad mistake. The cause of restoring Scotland’s rightful constitutional status needed no further justification. It is, and always has been, fully warranted by the inherent injustice of the Union. Self-evidently wrong as it is to act contrary to the democratic will of Scotland’s people, the core issue is not Brexit, but the Union which strips Scotland’s people of the right to have their democratic will honoured.]
      Long Live Informed Dissent!

    473. SilverDarling says:

      I wonder if this wee jolly, amongst others, is what Ruth Davidson was promised to get of the main political stage?

      She was a liability while her previous stances on Brexit and Johnston were still a talking point and a source of point scoring for other parties. She was also a focus for those in the Tory party deluded enough to believe she was the civilized face of Toryism, ‘Save Us Ruth’ were the plaintive cries from daft people down south who thought there was anything more to her than self-interest.

      Scotland waves good riddance as she rides off on her tank to the rich pickings of Tory cronyism. Remember she is in Kezia’s think tank as well. Just like big corporations, failure in politics is no barrier to moving on and up to feather one’s nest.

    474. Breeks says:

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/31a7454e-f5a8-11e9-afe0-18e11653b68e

      FFS. Do you think she can say the word? S-O-V-E-R-E-I-G-N-T-Y.

      Ignore a wee devolved protocol, and maybe we’ll take you to court Mr Johnson.

      Ignore the sovereign will of a whole Nation in order to wreck their economy, and we’ll twiddle our thumbs for three years dishing out platitudes left, right and centre, and false hope to all our European citizens.

    475. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone who feels this place has become boring or a bit bleak should have a quick swatch at the comments posted by some Daily Mail readers in response to the tragedy in Essex.

      We may never know for sure how many headbangers, racists and throwbacks Rev has to block but we should be grateful that he does, and if that contributes to this place being a bit ‘boring’, so be it.

      (PS Dows, Glasgow, at Queen St station tomorrow, gathering of ‘Friends’, from late afternoon until closing. Bringing our own food and raffle prizes. All welcome.)

    476. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      ” John”, behave yersel.

      I USED to vote Labour. I now vote SNP. This is because I want a decent society where people with disabilities are respected and not killed.

      The SNP promised me that. The SNP say they wil treat people with “dignity and respect”. Source…

      https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-how-is-the-snp-supporting-people-with-disabilities/

      So far the SNP have a very honourable track record in seeking to deliver. At least the SNP are NOT killing disabled people. It was actually New Labour that hired the LETHAL ATOS and two of my friends are on this fcuking death list…

      http://www.calumslist.org

      So when you have a snide dig, maybe think about why someone like me and tens of thousands of former Labour voters started voting SNP. Hint… it wasn’t to pay hundreds £££££££ in SNP membership and raffles and fundraisers to then come on Wings Over Scotland and take dogs abuse from the SPS (SNP paranoid Section).

      I want Independence for Scotland. Nicola and Ian Blackford are failing. So when I mentioned the possibility of going back to voting Labour, that is to illustrate how indictable this situation with Ian Blackford at Westminster has become. In truth, I would rather not vote at all than ever vote Labour.

      But I am old school. People died so I and my family + friends + society can have the right to vote.

      But there are a substantial number of former Labour voters who have helped ensure the SNP had those 56 MPs who are getting mighty fed up with the SNP High Command. Hopefully you understand the point? Regards, Al.

    477. kapelmeister says:

      The company Ruth Davidson is going to be ‘working’ for is called Tulchan.

      An old word derived from Gaelic, a tulchan was someone who acquired material gain by pretending to be something they weren’t.

      How very apt.

    478. Bobp says:

      Republicofscotland.12.16pm. I myself dont see any point in our snp mp’s taking up residence in westminster. At every step they are reviled,ignored,ridiculed, shouted down, walked out on. Time to end this charade of a union. I have more respect for sinn fein who refuse to take their seats in that cesspit where they have the effrontery to call themselves “honourable”.

    479. dadsarmy says:

      Considering that the person who wrote this letter in the Herald, is almost certainly the same who posts below the line in a strongly anti-Independence and anti-SNP fashion, this is a ringing endorsement of Sturgeon as leader of the SNP and FM:

      Letters: The SNP needs a new leader who can clear the decks and start afresh

      They’re running scared.

    480. Clapper57 says:

      If , like me, you look at some of the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remain champions Twitter a/c’s, those individuals who chomp at the bit for a second ‘people’s vote’ you will have noted that, in the past, they have been extremely angry at the notion of a possible Brexit UKOK’s closer alignment with Trump’s USA.

      One of their concerns is the possible privatisation of the NHS by american companies infiltrating the NHS…this they saw as a great threat and used this as a strong argument in their quest to stop Brexit.

      Most of these prominent remainers see the Lib Dems as the ONLY party that offers them a chance for salvation from Brexit…

      So Evolve politics tweeted the following last night :

      “It is very much worth noting that Jo Swinson’s Lib Dems abstained on Jeremy Corbyn’s amendment to halt NHS privatisation tonight”.

      *******************************

      Strangely upon checking this morning NONE of the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers felt this incident was worth noting on their Twitter a/c’s…strange considering how strongly their combined aversion to the possible privatisation risk that was posed via a Trump USA/UKOK trade deal could be on the cards courtesy of a Tory Brexit.

      So you see it is not only Brexiteers who are opportunists and selective in what they choose to reveal/highlight….remainers too are hypocrites…they are aware of the Lib Dem’s history while in coalition with the Tories and know deep down that they are , as a party, profiting via gaining votes on the back of this contentious issue only because the one major UKOK party currently in opposition have been grossly deficient in defining their position on Brexit.

      BUT because Labour have failed to take a definitive position on Brexit, the Tories are driving the Brexit bus and the Greens are too wee to have any real impact in the fight for remaining in the EU….well these prominent remainers are willing to forgive Lib Dems past AND current sins and still support them….the SNP of course are NOT standing in THEIR country so can be easily disregarded and considered only useful if they back up their remain position for the UKOK only…Scotland not so much…as prominent remainers see their UKOK as THE one to fight for in Brexit…Scotland is incidental and only will become an issue for them should a second Indy Ref be announced….

      The Lib Dems ….a party, who saw a gap in the Brexit debacle with which they could take full advantage of…. and thus present themselves as THE only party that wanted to and could stop Brexit but only for the UKOK as a whole…..for the fairies of course.

      It would seem the prominent remainers are blind , deaf and dumb to their, the Lib Dem, actions….which of course makes them NOT our allies but indeed opponents…because they will of course adopt the same strategy as the Lib Dems in that they will oppose Scotland wanting/getting it’s Independence…so why should I, who have already voted Remain as did my country by a majority, help them via a second so called ‘people’s vote’…is it so that THEIR UKOK can REMAIN in the EU ?

      That is NOT my fight…my fight is in gaining independence and wanting Scotland to be in the EU….and that is NOT what prominent remainers or their chosen political party agree with…..I will vote SNP at next GE and obviously vote for Independence but I do not agree with supporting those who see this as only a UKOK fight and that is where I disagree with the SNP in their continuing support to shore up the fight for those who deny us Scots a voice,a choice or indeed fail to recognise our position…..but also I cannot be on side with those who choose to support one of the worst political parties (Lib Dems) who continually undermine and suppress the country I live in…aside from the fact that they will lie and cheat in order to gain power they do not deserve and will, in gaining more power via Remainer votes, will do this to the detriment of me and mine…..Not in my ***$$%% name they won’t….

    481. Republicofscotland says:

      Glasgow city councillors and police Scotland force AUOB march (next month) out of George Sq and into a side street for finish point.

      http://archive.fo/YrSEF

      It seems the loyalist marches on the same day take precedence.

    482. Shug says:

      It is interestiing watching how downing Street smeers and lie about their own to the press and they publish with impunity
      Look what is ahead for indyref2

    483. defo says:

      R@pe Clause’ new job title.
      Holder of The Brown Envelope.

    484. Capella says:

      Nicola Sturgeon is an outstanding political leader in the UK and internationally. We would be very very stupid to do what the obvious British nationalists want us to do. This constant carping and complaining is what makes the blog boring atm. You can scroll on by but it is good to have some reasoned comment to scroll to.

      Many regulars have now left the blog (though I notice one or two have snuck back under the radar) – again the very thing that the British nationalists want to happen. It is the most successful and popular vehicle for independence opinion on the internet. So, naturally, high profile politicians of the unionist persuasion, such as Kezia Dugdale, demand that everyone stops reading it.

      Let’s really annoy them and ignore them. keep on campaigning. The demise of Westminster is in plain sight.

      Hope the WoS party goes well. Do let us know.

    485. dadsarmy says:

      @Clapper57
      The LibDems while in Coalition with the Tories voted FOR the Health and Social Care Act 2012 which allowed for up to an analysed 50% privatisation. The “great” Shirley Williams who could have stopped it in the Lords after a petition against it that rose to over 100,000 in about 12 hours from 40,000 odd (that I and others both Indy and Unionist alike pushed in the Grun), sold out, betrayed the NHS, betrayed the voters, betrayed the LibDem “principles”.

      As far as I’m concerned they’re even worse than Tories – at last you know where you are with a Tory.

      My contempt for the LibDems knows no bounds.

    486. mike cassidy says:

      Clapper57 1.42

      Here’s the libdem justification for abstaining on NHS protection.

      It appears Labour included a call for the repeal of a health act the libdems quite like.

      (Typical Labour that they couldn’t have gone for the basic protection principle – full stop.)

      Not that the btls are convinced.

      http://archive.is/i3zcw

    487. Cubby says:

      STV News this lunchtime

      ” Good afternoon, spending on the NHS amounted to more than £13b last year that’s just under half the Scottish Governments total budget. ”

      £13b x2 = £26b. What is reasonable to be described as just under half. Of course they also do not say exactly what they mean by last year 2018/19?

      Last time I checked the Scotgov budget for 2016/17 was slightly over £33b. So have the Tories cut the Scotgov budget by £6/7billions, of course not, it is just lies.

      What a misrepresentation by STV. Lies for the gullible and the Britnats who just love their lies.

      Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

      No different from the Britnats posting on Wings as phoney independence supporters. Britnats have no case they can make for Scotland in Union so they just lie and misrepresent.

      So why present this lie – its to suggest the Scotgov cannot sustain a decent NHS in Scotland. These people are just propagandists working for another country.

    488. dadsarmy says:

      @mike cassidy
      From that Libdemvoice:

      Now I know that many, including me, in this party had concerns about the reforms in the 2012 Act. But there was some good stuff in there, on social care and on mental health, both issues very important to us. So even if we think that the Act isn’t perfect, we would go with amending rather than appealing it.

      Liar liar liar, they voted FOR it to keep their Coalition, their little pathetic shot in power. And they can’t vote against it now or they’d have to publicly admit they were

      liars, liars, pants on fire unprincipled liars.

      And still are, to this day.

    489. Republicofscotland says:

      “Nicola Sturgeon is an outstanding political leader in the UK and internationally. We would be very very stupid to do what the obvious British nationalists want us to do. This constant carping and complaining is what makes the blog boring atm.”

      I 100% disagree no politician especially one we’ve entrusted to lead us to independence is above criticism or questioning of their/her methods of doing so.

      Sturgeon is a good politician and has done well for Scotland, however this isn’t about Sturgeon its about independence and if folk want to question or comment on her chosen route or see possible flaws or cracks in it they should be allowed to do so.

      Fawning conformity without question should be a no go in any walk of life.

    490. mike cassidy says:

      Wales should have full control of its justice system – with powers to run policing, prisons and appoint its own judges, says an independent commission.

      http://archive.is/BcfNc

    491. Clapper57 says:

      @ dadsarmy @ 2.11pm

      Indeed dadsarmy, one always knows where one stands with the Tories…however we are now in the position where the past and current ‘indiscretions’ committed by the Lib Dems are being allowed to slip under the radar…and by omitting these ‘indiscretions’ from their twitter a/c’s the prominent remainers can continue to justify their support for Swinson’s most ‘remainer’ LOL party in the UKOK.

      Meanwhile in the real world there are those like us who know exactly what the Lib Dems represent….and it is not something any decent minded individual should or could support…the Brexit scavenger Lib Dem party are feeding off the spoils of Brexit and their new found supporters are enabling them to do this…irrespective of their, the Lib Dems, TRUE position…they would sell their souls to become politically relevant again and under Miss Twee’s ruthless leadership they will , while Brexit dominates politics, find a place in the ‘hearts’ of those ‘liberal’ minded remainer types….until their true colours are once again on display for all to see….tis happening now but prominent remainers are in willing denial mode….cause Brexit and all that……..

    492. SilverDarling says:

      @Clapper57 and @Mike Cassidy

      Saw that and their excuses too. It was a ‘motion of regret’ and not binding legislation was the one I saw bandied about most.

      Perhaps even more reason to record dissent therefore.

      Possibly some soft Noes are considering voting for the LibDems because of their Brexit stance but if there are any lurking here, PLEASE just look at their record when they get a hint of power!

      I think under Swinson they are probably at the worst they have ever been because she is so blatantly in tune with Conservative economics but has capitalised on staying in the EU to try to differentiate from them.

      They absolutely reek.

    493. Breeks says:


      Capella says:
      24 October, 2019 at 1:59 pm
      Nicola Sturgeon is an outstanding political leader in the UK and internationally.

      Then I’d recommend she shows some of that prowess in leadership, and addresses the smouldering pile of dissatisfied leaves she has created, before it erupts into a bonfire that consumes her.

      It’s my own personal opinion Nicola Sturgeon has all but thrown the SNP and YES movement into reverse gear, and all but blown a heaven sent opportunity to secure the freedom of our Nation by contesting Brexit on it’s Constitutional legitimacy.

      Please, in all sincerity, I would be delighted for you, or Nicola herself, to prove me wrong so we can all progress as friends and allies beyond this dreadful stagnation and lost momentum.

    494. mike cassidy says:

      Just because I thought it was funny.

      https://twitter.com/5goalthriller/status/1187099288939257857

      And he’ll never sell an election going at that speed!

    495. Republicofscotland says:

      Jo Swinsons voting record, she voted 13 times to stop Holyrood obtaining anymore powers.

      https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11971/jo_swinson/east_dunbartonshire/votes

    496. Socrates MacSporran says:

      “SNP Gain” (Ross Thomson MP) on his feet on BBC Parliament, as I type, running down Scotland’s government for all he is worth, as he grovels to be noticed by those Tories who really matter.

      What a waste of space that man is.

    497. Capella says:

      @ Clapper57 – the English NHS is already mostly privatised. See this thread detailing how it was done:

      https://twitter.com/GowerInitiative/status/1180944612728418304?s=20

      The meme of the moment is that we are all “bored” with politics. Here’s Call Kaye interrupting and dismissing Simon Pia’s excellent analysis of the Scottish political landscape. As soon as he mentions that Jo Swinson will probably lose her seat, Kaye stops him and says everybody is bored and switching off. He counters her well, when he gets a word in edgeways. Confirmation that Jo Swinson is the new Ruth for the British media:

      https://twitter.com/kwr66/status/1187296650529857536?s=20

      @ Breeks and Republicofscotland – pointing out that Nicola Sturgeon is an outstanding politician is not fawning adulation. It reflects her international standing and reputation. It doensn’t say she is infallible, nor that I agree with all of her policies.



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