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The two types of oil

Posted on August 20, 2017 by

With this year’s GERS figures imminent, there are two stories about North Sea oil in today’s papers which are markedly different in both tone and honesty.

This, for example, is the front page of the Sunday Herald:

It’s basically a reprise of a Wings story from almost a year ago, noting that despite producing broadly similar amounts of oil to Scotland from the North Sea, Norway has generated tens of billions in pounds in government revenue from it – even during the price slump of recent years – while Scotland has actually LOST money.

The Sunday Times, though, has a rather different take.

Casually glossing over the fact that UK mismanagement of a precious resource appears to have cost the UK and Scotland an untold fortune, the paper furiously spins every last line of a pre-GERS report by the Fraser Of Allander Institute (FAI) for all it’s worth to suggest that these facts somehow render an independent Scotland unviable, even though the report was accompanied by a sharp disclaimer:

“FAI director Graeme Roy pointed out that the GERS figures only offer a snapshot of how Scotland fares within the UK and cannot be taken as a guide to how it might do under independence.”

The final scrapings of the barrel are used to pad out the end of the piece, in the form of a moronic quote from the director of the hardcore loyalist zoomer society Scotland In Yoonion (suddenly back in favour at the ST after a period in the wilderness, it seems), which we won’t trouble your intelligence with here.

The article is – strikingly obviously to even the most superficial glance – more or less a complete reversal of the truth. As is clearly demonstrated by the figures from Norway, it’s NOT being independent that has left Scotland vastly worse off, not just in the past but right up to the present day and the future.

There’s going to be a lot more of this sort of thing in the next few days. We advise readers to steel, rather than oil, themselves.


Due to matters entirely outwith our control, Wings Over Scotland is currently operating under circumstances which significantly impair the frequency, length and presentation of posts. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

Readers are asked NOT to speculate on the nature of these circumstances in the comments. Any such comments are subject to deletion.

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    1. 20 08 17 12:57

      The two types of oil | speymouth

    305 to “The two types of oil”

    1. theMadMurph says:

      My daughter moved to NZ after the referendum. Seeking a future in an independent country.

      Last year we visited, flying with Emirates via Dubai. A small independent country with oil and now the busiest airport in the world.

      This year, we’re flying with Qatar via Doha.

      Both times we’ve been on the current longest flight in the world. Both airlines run from small countries, but accessing the world.

      That could be Scotland. No more having to fly via Heathrow!

    2. Muscleguy says:

      A large part of the difference between the UK sector and the Norwegian sector is Statoil, the Norwegian state owned oil company. It is much easier to regulate and tax a resource extracted by a state owned and controlled entity. The large presence of Statoil also keeps the other international oil companies honest. It is harder to hide profits when identical Statoil installations are highly profitable.

      The UK shut down British Oil, our Statoil equivalent very shortly after North Sea Oil and Gas came on stream. The peculiar Anglo-Saxon obsession with the mythical efficiencies of private enterprise strike again.

      It is difficult to see how we reinvent the wheel after Independence but perhaps we can do something to ensure better management and taxation. It can’t be wore than Westminster’s.

    3. Ian McCubbin says:

      We need a real belief in oursleves like all Nordic countries have.
      Both Norway and Iceland have this in a there people.
      We need need somehow to de-brainwash a d open eyes of our fellow Scottish residents.

    4. K1 says:

      I honestly just despise these liars and it is now simply beyond credible that rags such as the ST are taken seriously by any sane and rational human being. They are spinning, obsfucating, manipulating, devious snake oil peddlars of the most cynical and corrupt origin. These aren’t journalists, they are jumped up salesmen who’d happily sell their grannies for a commision on the sale.

    5. Muscleguy says:

      That route, Glasgow to Dubai/Doha has been there for several years. We and friends and family from NZ and Oz have used it numerous times. The direct Dubai/Doha to Auckland thing is welcome though. Sitting on the ground in Brisbane or Melbourne for two hours when Auckland is just 3 hours flying time away and you are tired from the longhaul is immensely frustrating.

      Direct flights will be faster, no more landing, sitting, taxiing in Australia and much less hassle. Coming back last time they decanted us in Melbourne then made us go through security to get back on, one of the scanners broke so we were late taking off as the other line took a long time to process. At least we weren’t in that line.

      Obviously NZ isn’t too fussed as there was no such rigmarole in Brisbane on the way out, off into the gate, stay in the gate, get back on.

      Small, inoffensive, semi non aligned nations who do a lot of friend making with trade (we sell a lot of stuff into the Middle East) get to do security differently from Mini America across the Tasman and the UK. Isolation, out in the middle of the Pacific helps but it is not the only story.

      NZ’s friends in the world keep electing us to the UN Security Council because we are good guys who can be trusted. Scotland can be that sort of nation.

    6. Gray says:

      When we tell them we plan to nationalise oil after independence that will really put the cat amongst the pigeons.

    7. Dr Jim says:

      The UK have always behaved like back street car mechanics telling you your car’s a virtual write off and worthless and everything about it is a common fault on your particular model of car but they can miraculously fix it with a momentous amount of effort and ingenuity for an exorbitant price, so you fall for it then later find out they were lying and your vehicle was perfectly fine all along
      but by then it’s too late you’ve lost your cash

      So how many times do we allow these London back street chancers to get away with this oil shit they keep spouting and why do Unionists not care they’re both being made mugs of and our country is being robbed at the same time
      Do Unionists think they’re going to ever get a backhander from Inglind for their duplicity on Inglinds behalf

      Because history of Inglind dealings informs us very much differently

    8. Az says:

      For how long can Scotland be painted as uniquely shite?

    9. galamcennalath says:

      After independence Scotland should launch its own state oil company in the image of Norway’s StatOil. Future production of the alleged vast untapped fields should be done by the state company.

      Private oil companies do operate in parallel to StatOil in the Norwegian sector. iScotland needs to model its oil and gas regime on Norway’s. Clearly, it is a successful setup! It’s not to late to catch up.

    10. colin alexander says:

      The Scot Govt introduced a 5p carrier bag tax, supposedly as a green tax to discourage use of throwaway bags.

      It should introduce a 50p paper newspaper tax to encourage use of digital media and discourage use of throwaway paper newspapers.

    11. Sinky says:

      btl Yoons on Sunday Herald claiming Oil is more expensive to extract in Scotland part of North Sea which is bollocks as for a start there are much higher wages in Norway.

      Also this article is a much read. Goldman Sachs say that leading European Oil companies are making more profits at $50 a barrel than they did at $100.

    12. j.denham says:

      My heart bleeds. Lifespan is short now. Come the revolution!

    13. Chick McGregor says:

      The Big Picture truth about Oil and Gas is that there is about a 1.7 trillion barrels equivalent identified resource left on the planet.

      At current extraction rates, that is enough for only 50 years.

      Some people point out we may yet find a lot more, OTOH, some people suggest existing resources may be greatly exaggerated for political reasons.

      But that is the figure we have to work on.
      There is very little doubt, however, that oil & gas’s lifetime is measured in decades rather than centuries.

      Clearly, at some point this will result in dramatically increased oil prices.

      When that inevitability comes about is subject to the mad machinations of politicians and is therefore beyond rational estimation.

      It would therefore, in a Scottish context, make more sense to plug existing wells for the time being and cash in in a couple of decades or so when the price is really high.

      However, such levels of extrapolation seem to be completely beyond our ruling elite, who are doing precisely the opposite. It may be termed ‘black gold’ but that is scant reason to follow Crash Gordon’s brilliant stratagem of selling off at rock bottom prices.

      But, more important than which set of politicians wins the international incompetency league on this issue, which countries emerge the best economically, is the fact that the clock is ticking for energy supply.

      There are stratagems which may insure this, e.g. ITER at Cadarache, but the time available overlap is getting very tight.

    14. Robert Peffers says:

      @Az says: 20 August, 2017 at 12:12 pm:

      “For how long can Scotland be painted as uniquely shite?”

      Oh! That’s an easy one to answer, Az.

      Scotland will continue to be, “painted as uniquely shite”, for as long as there are Scots born British/English/UK, blood & soil, nationalists living in Scotland.

      The English, per se, have never actually been the bad guys.

      The bad guys, who have continued to flourish throughout our history, to sell our birth right for English gold, or even more despicably, for a fancy dress costume tipped with skunk fur and a well paid seat on red leather, are almost to an individual, either Scots born or born elsewhere of Britnat parentage.

      I will not even try to name them for we all know who they are and many are/were sons of the manse.

    15. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye there are two types of oil, just as there are two types of Nationalism as per the MSM/BBC.

      Scots Oil and EssEnnPeeBaad vile Nationalism

      and then

      Bwitish Patriotism and the ‘broad shoulders’ of OGUKOK

      Look at the tax receipts between the UK and Norway

      The theft of such a valuable national natural resource ‘cos basically that’s what giving tax rebates to the Oil companies to extract UK Oil and Gas, (never mind just Scotland’s share of oil and gas) should cause universal outrage.

      These companies are in effect being paid to take the UKs Oil and Gas while at the same time ‘austerity’ squeezes the Public Sector to breaking point and forces 100s of Thousands into poverty.

    16. heedtracker says:

      Sunday Times goes zoom zoom for uncle Rupert but they’ve got nothing on you know who. There aint no propaganda like tory propaganda.

      ‘Hard’ Brexit offers ‘£135bn annual boost’ to economy
      1 hour ago
      From the section Business

      As per, beeb gimp author is nameless, not even a nom de plume.

    17. Legerwood says:

      I noticed in the Herald article that of the 24 countries in which Shell operates ALL apart from the UK managed to get the company to pay taxes. Even New Zealand received £131 million in taxes from Shell yet their oil/gas industry is no where near the scale of ours.

    18. Les Wilson says:

      Well, there are really no surprises there, we KNOW we are being cheated on a biblical scale. Such it has always been, such is what will always be, across all sectors not just oil.

      This article emphasis’s just one big issue, but the deceit is hugely more than that. Whatever we have, they want all worthwhile parts of it.
      We cannot trust anything at all that Westminster and it’s corrupt, compliant media says.

      The lesson is here, trust nothing they say at all, unless it is signed by the Prime Minister, the UN, the pope, and god himself
      and even then……..

    19. colin alexander says:

      As Stu has put Wings on the backburner to some extent.

      There is no indyref

      There are no elections

      There is very little debate on here and as it’s more of a “senior citizens for the SNP” chat room, I will go back to being mainly a non-commenting visitor and give youse peace to moan about the BBC and newspapers and discuss WW2 and other irrelevant subjects that older people like to chat about.


    20. Swiss Perspective says:

      Well instead of arguing the toss on GERS figures and what oil revenue is worth, we should, like this article here, be relentlessly asking the question why Scotland is poorer than every neighbouring nation (other than NI) and how this is making the Union work for Scotland and being Better Together, etc. The argument is only sustainable if you really ready to state at some level that Scotland is too stupid. Too small does not work.

    21. Daisy Walker says:

      Thanks for this.

      Won’t speculate in any way, but sending you very best wishes.

      I’ve taken to printing off articles like these, And carrying a spare around with me for when the conversation comes round. Which it keeps doing for some reason… can’t think why;)

      Last time round it was ‘my heart says yes, but my head says no’ – this time its a head decision.

      One myth busting fact, one person and one bit of decency at a time.

      Yes we damn well can.

    22. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      True to form @colin alexander says colin alexander says at 1:00 pm

      “…other irrelevant subjects that older people like to chat about.”

      Ageist as well now are we?

      The Indy movement is an inclusive one and comments like this show you for what you are….

      Not one of us.

      Your 77th Handlers pulling you because you are so transparent and ineffective are they??

    23. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      True to form @colin alexander says at 1:00 pm

      “…other irrelevant subjects that older people like to chat about.”

      Ageist as well now are we?

      The Indy movement is an inclusive one and comments like this show you for what you are….

      Not one of us.

      Your 77th Handlers pulling you because you are so transparent and ineffective are they??

    24. Graf Midgehunter says:

      This blog seems to be turning into the Colin Alexander show.

      The Rev posts one of his brilliant articles for us to get our teeth into it, take apart the yoonionists lies and what happens – CA says something to deflect – then it’s loony times again.

      New article about the oil lies and quickly up pops CA at tenth to attempt a carrier bag diversion.

      Thread after thread after thread this sort of thing goes on. If you feed the bugger they breed and before long they start to chat with each other. Then it’s threads within a thread and screws everything up. Job done and big bonus for Xmas.

      Or will the suckers ever learn…. 🙁

    25. Rab Dickson (@Roy1Batty) says:

      colin alexander

      Missing you already

    26. Paula Rose says:

      The potential wealth for an independent Scotland from oil is as nothing compared to the potential from investment in renewables.

    27. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Galamcennalath: “After independence Scotland should launch its own state oil company…”

      This is one of my biggest hopes. I’d fight for it.

    28. starlaw says:

      Great programme on Radio shortbread this morning about India once the worlds third largest GDP country, till the East India company and the British Empire arrived with its Union Jacks and Bullets, leaving India an almost empty shell of what it had been. The Victorian age was the worst, railway system was built to serve the British Empire in the removal of goods and troop movements to keep the peace. The Indian mutiny is now described as the first war of Independence. Now Britain thinks this country will rush to her aid with trade agreements, sadly deluded, I’m very surprised this programme was aired.

    29. Capella says:

      The big surprise is the front page of The Sunday Herald, which did feature in the R Scotland newspaper review. It seemed to come as a bolt from the blue.

      Has the editor suddenly woken up again?

    30. colin alexander says:

      The article is: newspaper prints keech ( again). This time about oil.

      (No wonder Stu can just re-use previous articles.)

      I suggest a 50p tax on these keech newspapers as a positive move as it will help clean up the enviroment and help put them out business.

      That’s not deflection. That’s a solution to newspapers printing keech.

      Bye for now.

    31. call me dave says:

      @Les Wilson

      A Biblicoil scale rip off indeed. 🙁

      Welcome back Nana hope your holiday went well.

    32. Bob p says:

      C A.cheeeerio.cheèeeriocheeeerio.

    33. heedtracker says:

      Paula Rose says:
      20 August, 2017 at 1:13 pm
      The potential wealth for an independent Scotland from oil is as nothing compared to the potential from investment in renewables.

      Yes but who is taking the profit?

      The rich obvs.

      Oil and gas was looted almost the instant it was struck, in the not Scottish oil and gas sectors.

      Now its not Scottish Green energy income, all subsidised by sucka taxpayer, us, by the billions, all profit funneled into the bank accounts of the rich.

      As the author of this blog points out for example, this rich dude what owns a wind farm on his shooting estate, also gave the BetterTogether a 6 figure sum, 2014. Not as much as say JK Rowling’s 7 figure sum but even so, its all to the good, of the rich.

      “Strathspey Estate is the trading name of the Reidhaven Estate and offers a range of field sports – primarily salmon fishing, but also by arrangement red deer and roe deer stalking, and grouse shooting.

      A wind farm at Boyndie Airfield, near Ogilivie-Grant Estate has been generating electricity since 2006 with eight turbines now on the site.”

    34. Proud Cybernat says:

      They’re scamming Scotland BIG TIME, they even KNOW they’re doing it and they don’t give a shit. The WORST though is that we are ALLOWING them to do so. I suppose we get what we deserve.

      FFS wake up Scotland before all you’re left with is a dirty old oil rag. And when that’s ALL that’s left, you can be damned sure that Westminster, having squandered all our resources, will be ‘giving’ us our independence whether we want it then or not.

      Westminster has had 40 YEARS of squandering Scotland’s oil & gas resources. Are we going to allow them ANOTHER 40 YEARS to do the same?

      Or are WE finally going to get a grip of ourselves and become as rich a country as Norway has become? And they don’t even have any whisky.


      GALLAS – The 40 Year Fleecing of Scotland’s Oil Wealth by Westminster

    35. Robert Kerr says:

      The then Labour WM government established the British National Oil Corporation (BNOC) as a nationalised asset by Tony Benn.

      In 1982 the Tory WM government transferred the BNOC to a new company Britoil ref Nigel Lawson.

      The shares in Britoil were sold to the public in two stages in 1982 and 1985 with the WM government retaining a”golden share”

      The WM government relinquished its “golden share” allowing BP to take over the oil company.

      Lest we forget Britoil’s HQ was located in Glasgow.

      Oil companies headquarters usually require engineering design to be undertaken by contracting houses usually located close by. At that time Glasgow had Humphreys and Glasgow and Foster Wheeler.

      H anf G did detailed design for the Bruce field topsides. FW never did any NS work from their Glasgow office although their London office executed Statoil’s Mongstat refinery design.

      Which leads to a “what might have been” discussion which as always centres on Margaret Thatcher’s hatred for Scotland and the Scottish people.

      Take care peeps.

    36. Les Wilson says:

      Paula Rose says:

      What you say is very true, Scotland has huge possibilities if the industry is nurtured and supported.

      Never the less while knowing oil is an finite source of a lot of money, given it currently keeps the UK afloat.
      I therefore take the view that we should have it, not them. We could do an awful lot of planning for the future with that money so that we can improve the progress as a country in the future.

      Saying that, renewables are a big part of that future, and substantial part of oil revenues should be invested in the development of that resource.

      So meanwhile the oil is ours and is being stolen from us every day. You know, we all know, there is only one way we will benefit from our resources, that must be the way to go, Indy is a must for Scotland.

    37. heedtracker says:

      The meek (Scots) shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights, nor the wind and wave energy income either.

      Who said that again? Getty, Penzoil and Chevron.

    38. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye @Robert Kerr says at 1:51 pm

      “Margaret Thatcher’s hatred for Scotland and the Scottish people.”

      I was told by a well informed Winger that Denis Thatcher did pretty well out of the destruction of the only true Scottish Oil Company, Burmah Oil.

    39. yesindyref2 says:

      Didn’t see this, so this from the last thread.

      Whenever we see a Scott Skinner claiming “ I see no mention of the production costs of a barrel of oil or total outputs; I wonder why?” here’s the answer from Oil & Gas UK – the industry body:

      the price of extraction per barrel in 2016 fell from $29.70 to $15.30 in US Dollars – half. And still falling. And the current price of Brent crude is $52.70 per barrel.

    40. ClanDonald says:

      Re GERS, I’m till waiting to hear from any unionists on twitter as to how much more healthy Scotland’s public finances would be if Westminster bothered to collect our share of corporation tax from companies like Amazon, facebook, Boots, Starbucks, Vodafone, Google and all the rest.

      So far I’ve only had total silence from them…

      Wierd, considering conservative estimates suggest it must be at least £4 or £5bn.

      Go on, ask them, it’s lots of fun.

    41. auld highlander says:

      Forty years of theft,

      The oil revenue wasted by the sassenach government and we sit on our arse and let them carry on.

      Huge engineering projects south of Hadrian’s wall and a few wee bits of road up here.

      Super fast trains for the south and dreary old diesels up here.

      That’s fair isn’t it.

    42. ClanDonald says:

      And as a wee reminder, even David Cameron admitted Norwegian oil resources are at the same level as “the UK” ie Scotland

      “They have as much oil as we do,” he said

    43. mike cassidy says:

      The Sunday Times article was written by Jason Allardyce.

      He was named Scottish Journalist Of The Year in 2003 –

      … he not only understands the system and the issues, but he reports them with accuracy and great authority


    44. mike cassidy says:

      The Allardyce link.

      Just in case anybody thought I was trying to do an allardyce!

    45. Jock McDonnell says:

      Yeah, under the union our economy is struggling, so don’t change anything, stick with the UK. You’d only screw up as an Independent country.

    46. Breeks says:

      The most important feature about Scotland’s oil is to learn the lesson which saw a vital resource squandered. Environmentalists would convince us the best thing to do with what is left of our oil is leave it where it is.

      What we should be doing is investing all that we can into renewable energy and sustainable sources of power. Succeed in that, and we have another bountiful and limitless energy resource which transcends oil, because it is indeterminate in its lifespan, and furthermore does not contaminate or spoil the environment.

      Nevermind the State oil company, what we need is a State Energy Company, so that every person in Scotland benefits from a similar type of prudent investment and foresight which has provided Norway with such a wholesome and resilient economy for generations to come. It’s not just the energy production we need to nurture, but the whole spectrum of supporting industries from research and development through to engineering, manufacture, and diversification into product.

      If we allow Westminster to manage another of Scotland’s resources like they have “managed” our other resources, then the profligate squandering of our oil will have taught us nothing. If we allow it to happen to our renewables industry after what we have seen done to our oil, we will have nobody to blame but ourselves.

      Handle it correctly, curtail the exploitation, and Scotland will have a resource more valuable and longer lasting than our oil. But “handling it correctly” starts now. We protect our access to European markets and potential customers, and safeguard cooperation and joint research projects with European agencies and governments.

      In short, our own SNP government needs to start respecting the sovereign mandate delivered by the Scottish people in 2016 for staying in the EU, and protecting Scotland’s capacity to make its own decisions and shape its own economic strategy.

      It doesn’t matter a jot that Brexit was a UK-wide referendum. In any “UK-wide” context, the Scottish vote is a sovereign decision because Scotland is unique in the UK and the people here are sovereign. Voting in the rest of the UK is non-sovereign opinion communicated to their sovereign parliament. That principle does not change because the vote is UK wide.

      We respected the sovereign choice of 2014, despite a NO vote being constitutionally incompetent, and the referendum process which delivered it was badly compromised by propaganda and media manipulation.

      We seem curiously resigned to set aside the sovereign nature of the 2016 Brexit result where Scotland chose to remain in the EU, and retreat a step backwards and away from the defining constitutional standoff which the cursed Act of Union could not possibly survive. You’ll have to ask the SNP why we are doing that, because the logic escapes me.

      We champion instead another democratic referendum, set to be every inch as compromised by propaganda and media manipulation as the 2014 referendum, but even further compromised by the dangerous constitutional precedent which we ourselves have apparently set, of failing to defend the sovereign nature of Scotland’s 2016 Remain vote.

      So if Scotland’s sovereign voice can be discarded and set to one side in 2016, then please enlighten me, what device or mechanism will insure it is respected in 2018? Why should Westminster and or Holyrood respect a 2018 referendum result as sovereign when neither government has been required to respect the 2016 referendum result as the sovereign choice of Scotland?

      And incidentally, before we set the question for the Indyref2, can we spare a thought for the constitutional ramifications of another “NO” vote, so that at least the ancient principle of our sovereignty remains sacrosanct, and does not become something that can be casually squandered and compromised through some ephemeral democratic vagrancy?

    47. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Peffers: “The English, per se, have never actually been the bad guys.”

      *spits coffee on screen*

      Well, you’re entitled to your opinion.

    48. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      The new speak and the double speak from the Regime’s newspapers remain a problem. Some folk actually still read and believe what is printed.

      The main problem though I think is that the Scottish Nation needs to grow a pair.

    49. velofello says:

      A wee fiction story:

      Now if me and my chums, we all held substantial stock in several energy companies. The less tax these companies pay means enhanced stock value and dividend payouts for me and my chums.

      And we have a problem. The energy producing part of our country is agitating for independence, and could put at risk our stock values and income stream. What better way to combat that agitation than by demonstrating that the region is subsidised by me and my chums.So me and my chums devised a solution.

      Allow tax concessions to the energy companies against current and future imagined costs. We publish massively reduced energy income, the region’s population believes it is too wee too poor for independence, and the income stream for me and my chums is protected. Oh, and our offshore accounts do help shield from prying eyes.

      A double whammy. Yes we are lying and cheating. All’s fair in love and war, and me and my chums, we’re in the money.

    50. schrodingers cat says:

      scotlands biggest asset is its people

    51. heedtracker says:

      auld highlander says:
      20 August, 2017 at 2:09 pm
      Forty years of theft,

      The oil revenue wasted by the sassenach government and we sit on our arse and let them carry on.

      They let the Clyde shipyards collapse into what are now housing estates or archeology really.

      Only in Scotland, the land of Clyde Built.

      World famous ship builders of Greenock and Clydebank together could have easily been transformed by the discovery of not Scots oil and gas, if our chums in the south had NOT decided to build so many not Scots north sea oil platforms in south east asia.

      If you mention issues like this around yoons, “why did they allow Greenock’s shipyards to die but then build huge oil platform jackets in asia,” they will automatically go, because it was cheaper!

      All yoon culture farts out this mantra, even the hardcore britnat OO yoon culture that’s left in dying towns like Clydebank and Greenock, although to be fair, Greenock is making itself popular with retirees, or trying to.

      Its so much cheaper to build rigs in Asia, proud Scot buts rant, but they have no idea really, whether or not it is or was cheaper.

      Cheaper perhaps that Clyde Built, but it couldn’t possibly have been the whole snatcher Thatcherite plan, for the end of Scottish industry, followed through by the same ghastly Crash Gordo creepshow that is the New Labour reign of anglo/London centric everything.

      As we all know, the Norwegians said, well it may be cheaper to build all our giant oil and gas installations in the far east, then sail them back across the planet on giant barges, but lets not.

      Lets invest in Norway instead.

      Clair Ridge oil fields are all in not Scottish waters, the jackets are all built in other countries, certainly not in Scotland, and above all else, all revenue from Clair is syphoned out, above, and over the UKOK region of Scotland, who will then, maybe, if we are good, get given some revenue back, if we’re good.

    52. yesindyref2 says:

      OK, the SH has an article about BfS’s new paper, but Where TF is it on the BfS website? Why, with it being in the SH, isn’t it front and center on the BfS main page?

      Anyway, here’s that summary graphic from the link earlier:

      This, and the detail, needs to be set against this, which is from last year and out of date by well over a year, but still used by unionists:

      Our side can not just ignore the unionist side of any argument, it has to be tackled head on. And quite frankly, my dear, I’m not up to t he job when it comes to the tricky subject of “Capital spending” which is way higher in the “UK” than any other oil-producing country.

      For instance, is it relative to the barrel of oil being produced NOW, or the barrels of oil that will be produced in future? That needs an economist or even an accountant. I’m a jack of all trades and master of none, except the use of search engines!

      The Truth Shall Set Us Free

    53. Dan Huil says:

      The union with England isn’t working for Scotland. Never has. F*** the union with England.

    54. geeo says:

      What we have learned, is that a) oil is only a burden to an indy Scotland, and b) we should thank WM sparing us from such a burden.

      Thats my mind put at ease….no more of this indy talk…!

      Aye, righty-oh then…!!!

      Conversations you will never hear…

      (Tory think tank)….”Listen Theresa, we have came up with a masterplan to shaft Scottish independence forever…we are going to give the Scottish Government FULL POWERS over the Oil and gas sector.

      With oil being such a burden to them, it won’t be long before they come crawling back, skint, to the union.

      When they do, we can slash their budget to the bone as the price of re entry to the precious union, and no other SNP gov in Scotland will ever try independence again”.

      (Theresa May)….Yer sacked.

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      To be specific, from that WSJ diagram last updated in April 2016, the total price they claim for the UK per BoE to produce is $44.33 compared to Norway $21.31. And a current price for Brent crude of $52.70.

      Gross Taxes: UK $0.00, Norway $0.19
      Capital Spending: UK $22.67, Norway $13.76
      Production costs: UK $17.36, Norway $4.24
      Admin / transport: UK, $4.30, Norway $3.12

      Comparing the least important, there’s “only” a dollar or two difference over the 13 on that chart including Norway, so forget that.

      Production costs – well, the UK was already down to $15.30 at the end of 2016, probably lower now, it’s going to be more expensive than Iran, but WHY is it 4 times that of Norway? What’s included in the UK figure, that perhaps isn’t included in the Norway one?

      Capital spending – ours is double that of Norway, why? Does that figure or the production cost included decommissioning, do figures for Norway include that?

      I’m off work to do, these are jsut my thoughts, but it seems to me we need a factoid kept up to date to explain this properly.

      And even then, if the total cost is $44.33 (adjusted for production cost down to £42.27) compared to $52.70 current Brent crude price, where’s the $8.37 or $10.33 per barrel going to?

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      That also needs a tweetable factoid (I don’t do twitter), e.g.

      “comparing like for like, UK $23 per barrel not $42, Norway $21. See tinyurl”

      or whatever is the truth

    57. starlaw says:


      Methil launched one of these jackets without any mention on MSM but the new carrier along the Forth was launched from its dry dock in a massive display of publicity, the same week.

    58. Proud Cybernat says:


      A few weekends ago I had a minor dispute with an Irish guy from Dublin. His parting words to me were, “Independence! As a nation you Scots are a bunch of stupid f#cking cowards.”

      Have to admit – I didn’t quite know how to respond to that.

      We were promised the earth by the BritNats, powers beyond our wildest dreams, broad shoulders of the UK protecting us, leading the UK, staying in the EU – all this if only we voted NO.

      And we did. And we got hee-haw. And I totally got what the Irish guy was saying. “…stupid f#ucking cowards.” That outsiders like this ordinary punter see Scotland like this angers me so much.

      We could have LEAD THE WORLD (not just the UK) but squandered that chance for a pocketful of Westminster mumble.

      How STUPID must we be as a nation? And how cowardly?

      Thank you proud Scot buts. Thanks a f#ucking bunch. I hope it makes you so very proud to be Scottish when you meet this Irish guy, or one like him, and they tell you straight to your face what they think of your nation after the way we voted in 2014.

    59. Johnny says:

      Brexit is a very British (&US) coup for Scotland’s oil.

      Follow the oil – follow the coup.

      The joint US/UK government-corporate bank-oil military industrial complex, fronted by its PR propaganda and military recruitment and consent for war – agency – known as the mainstream media have and are conducting a number of regional oil-wealth grabs via coups.


      (The ‘Arab Spring’ – destabilising the entire region).

      Syria (to draw Iran into war)

      Yemen (via Saudi Arabia proxy)

      Venezuela (via ‘internal’ coup)

      Scotland (via UK Govt/MSM Brexit coup)

      Iran is next (via full-ground invasion).

      As I said – follow the oil, follow the coups – then it all makes perfect Brexit sense…

    60. Rock says:


      “The big surprise is the front page of The Sunday Herald, which did feature in the R Scotland newspaper review. It seemed to come as a bolt from the blue.

      Has the editor suddenly woken up again?”

      It is time to milk some gullible independence supporters again. Every pound helps.

    61. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      GERS figures should described as “Scotland’s UK figures/deficit” or the “cost to Scotland of staying in “the massively indebted, failing UK economy” and then ignored.

    62. Derek Rogers says:

      Norway’s population density is 47 people per sq. km., Scotland’s is 65, so the argument for additional cost of rural services won’t wash. Perhaps Norway would do better if it was part of a larger state that could protect it by sucking out all its wealth.

    63. theMadMurph says:


      We went out on the 28th Feb last year. It was GLA/DXB/MEL/AKL. I don’t like flying and can’t sleep and it’s too long to hit the booze! Mind you, I couldn’t believe when there was no bar open in MEL. It was 0630 local time, but I can drink any time of day! That was my first and only visit (if you can call it that) to Australia. They did open at 7am and I quenched my thirst.

      The next day, they introduced the direct AKL/DXB. They offered us that flight and we took it. It was my idea of torture, all 17 hours of it.

      This year we’re going for new year, and flying from EDI as it was much cheaper than GLA. We’re also taking the short hop from AKL to Tauranga, saves a couple of hours drive each way.

      I’m looking forward to it, but could do without the travel. I look forward to the invention of transporters, StarTrek style.

      Where are you based?

    64. Lenny Hartley says:

      Heedtracker @1253 posted this earlier but it’s disappeared, the answer to your question!

    65. Macart says:

      Ayup! Worth remembering who it was promised ‘broad shoulders’ in times of economic hardship not so long ago and responsible stewardship of said resource.

      Pledges that aren’t holding up so well, has to be said. Still, it’s only been near three years. Maybe if we give it a little longer those assurances’ll come good?

      Or maybe not.

    66. Wullie says:

      whats that phrase again. you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. unless its the Scots, you can rip the you know what out of them 24 7 365.
      or so it would appear embarrassing beyond belief

    67. mike d says:

      Wullie,in a nutshell.

    68. Valeman says:

      I see the graph obsessed pet food salesman is peddling a lie on twitter with regards NS production costs based on a 2016 Wall Street Journal article which claims a near $45 break even price. He could of course have consulted the Oil & Gas UK 2017 Business Outlook Survey which states:

      ” Within two years, the sector has halved its average unit operating costs, from $29.70 per barrel to $15.30 per barrel, while at the same time safely increasing oil and gas production.”

      But then that would have ruined the “Scotland would be FUBAR without Westminster” narrative wouldn’t it?

    69. mike d says:

      Proud cybernat 4.01 pm. I get exactly where you are coming from,and i understand the anger and hurt. But other nations that won their independence didn’t have our achilles heel. Half a population who detest and ridicule their own country. But our day is coming. And we will be free of these parasites.

    70. Lenny Hartley says:

      He Madmurph, don’t think Dubai has any oil, other parts of the UAE like Abu Dhabi has.
      There are heaps of regional oil service companies in Dubai supporting the oil
      Industry in the region. There based there due to the excellent communication links as Dubai has been one of the worlds busiest trading centres for hundreds if not thousands of years.

    71. Capella says:

      @ Rock – you may well be right about the Herald – I don’t buy it so rely on WoS comments about content.

      But I subscribe to The National because there are many good articles by people who know what they’re talking about. That’s a rare phenomenon in the Scottish media.

      Plus – Alex Salmond urged us to buy it when it first came out just after the referendum. He urged people to join a group, any group, to be involved in the movement. Good advice I think.
      The Andrew O’Hagan speech in Thursday’s National is a long read but excellent. I would recommend anyone to read it online.

    72. mike d says:

      Proud cybernat 4.01 pm. Also re same subject, other nationalities taking the p*ss out of us, I have an Irish passport which i flourish and reply,f**k all to do with me, I’m not a coward.

    73. Muiris says:

      As Jim Larkin said a century ago’ The great appear great, only because you are on your knees’.

      The only thing stopping g Scotland is a lack of self belief (outside of this site, of course)

    74. Cactus says:

      Aye, I’d imagine new readers seeing this article will be quite taken aback. We’ve been talking about this stuff for ages too. Welcome to the realisation stage new readers.

      Some say there are ‘three steps to iheaven…’

      1) The realisation
      2) The re-enlightenment
      3) The quickening

      Where are YOU?

      There can be only one iScotland.

    75. Dan Huil says:

      Remember: you don’t need to be a hero to refuse to pay the bbc tax. If I can do it…

    76. Cactus says:

      To learn… that’s why we all come here to Wings.

      Both above and below the line.
      (+toons & music videos)

      That’s the meaning.


      All awe this oil and not a drop of it tae drink!

    77. Clapper57 says:

      Think that Jason may be a bit of a DIPSTICK with his CRUDE attempt at scraping the bottom of the BARREL in his attempt to add FUEL to the negative misconception about a Scottish RESOURCE ……which should be seen as an ASSET to any country…..and not a curse.

      Perhaps he was LUBRICATED when he wrote this…..if you know what I mean…..why is he wasting so much ENERGY in the PRODUCTION of such an UNREFINED piece…do the words just.. just …FLOW or does he need to DIG deeper to EXTRACT them….down to the DEPTHS of his dark unionist soul.

      Frankly it is getting to the point where one needs so much ENERGY to constantly challenge those usual unionist suspects who try to RIG so much…….. to the detriment of Scotland.

      I have seen a picture of Jason and believe you me he is no OIL painting…….in fact he is is no ASSET to journalism….physically or intellectually…..he thinks he’s WELL PUMPED up and he knows full WELL that what he is PRODUCING is a TANKER full of piss….CRUDE I know….but hey….he’s the one promoting the myth that BLACK GOLD is a liability…..we all know the DRILL….they present OIL as a drain on the economy while omitting crucial information on the UKOK’s successive governments mismanagement of OIL…only Indy friendly media SPILLS the beans on the reality…. the reality being UKOK successive governments SPEWING out all the money derived from OIL and misusing it……no OIL fund required .

      Unfortunately Jason, and others like him , undeservedly have a PLATFORM to SPEW OUT and POLLUTE the minds of those easily influenced by BOREHOLES like Jason….where as we have RESERVES of evidence that contradicts their deception and exposes it all as just another BLOWOUT by those who always seem to feel the need to PIPE up….sheeite……. when they really all should just be DECOMMISSIONED and perhaps then we could all just run/skip or hop happily through the FIELDS of wheat al la Theresa May………free of arse wipes that exist only to CONTAMINATE and SMEAR.

    78. louis.b.argyll says:

      When we’re independent can we sue Westminster/the Crown?
      The grounds.. knowingly, recklessly, deliberately, failing to save for the future’.

    79. Dr Jim says:

      I hated Salmond so I don’t care if there’s oil or not
      I hate Sturgeon “””””
      I hate the SNP “”””””
      I don’t care if we’re all starving and eating mud “No Surrender”

      There are still folk who talk about being reasonable with that mentality to win them over
      I’m never reasonable with these people because they keep telling us they refuse to listen to reason so I treat them accordingly just as they deserve but still less than I would like

      Oooh, does that make me the ugly face of Nationalism because I’m reasonably unreasonable in return for their unreasonableness
      Rabid Nutters don’t do diplomacy, they’re incapable

    80. Wuliie says:

      We should certainly encourage our independent state to charge certain groups and individuals with crimes against the people.

    81. Chick McGregor says:

      We are not long back from NZ since Aug 5th. Emirates Glasgow-Dubai-Sidney-Christchurch.

      Main notice was how much less you get for a pound in NZ now comparted to previous. Used to be approx parity after currency conversion but now things seem to cost double what they do in the UK.

    82. Street Andrew says:

      Does Chris Cairns being away on holiday count as undue speculation? And thus subject to deletion.

    83. Street Andrew says:

      Oh Dear! What’s the matter with Dr Jim?

      Is there a psychiatrist in the house?

    84. theMadMurph says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Dubai does have oil. Not as much as Scotland, and they used it more wisely than WM did.

    85. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Jim at 8.01

      You are quite right.There is about 30% of the electorate impervious to reason. We waste our time trying to debate with them.

      They react to momentum however and high levels of visible public engagement with our cause which is why car and window stickers, badges, flags and visible high profile supporters are very important.

    86. Ghillie says:

      Shrodingers cat @ 2.42 pm

      ‘Scotland’s greatest asset is its people’ 🙂

      That says it all = )

    87. ben madigan says:

      @ proud cybernat who said ” an Irish guy from Dublin. His parting words to me were, “Independence! As a nation you Scots are a bunch of stupid f#cking cowards.”

      Think that was the general view in Ireland after IndyRef1. Beforehand, most people believed the Scots would vote Yes though I did hear the view “they would bottle it” from more than one individual.

      Still – all water under the bridge now.
      Let’s hope Scotland seizes her second opportunity

    88. Lenny Hartley says:

      The Madmurch I should have said substantial reserves, when I used to visit there on business when I worked in the oil service industry back in the late nineties, early noughties there wasn’t much going on in Dubai, most of the work was in Abu Dhabi. Looks like they have made discoveries since I last visited!

    89. ben madigan says:

      @Muiris who said :
      ’ The great appear great, only because you are on your knees’.

      That quote is also attributed to James Connolly, Scottish born leader of the 1916 Rising in ireland who was shot by the English. He was strapped to a chair for his execution even though a doctor certified he had only a day or two to live because of his wounds.
      Of course, Connolly could have shared the saying with his comrade Jim Larkin.
      It seems hard to decide who it originated with

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      Something I say sometimes to the “I hate the SNP” crowd is to say “Well, we’ll be stuck with them until we’re Independent”.

      Mouths gape.

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      Onyways, heard this on the news as I was slaving over a hot workbench earlier “Nearly 10,000 Scottish parents sign up for baby box”

      I had to stop working I was shaking. With laughter. All the unionist parties and press and BBC are like “Oooh, what a bad idea”whereas the parents are like “yes please”. Expected births in 2017 are – yes, 10,000, nearly 100% take-up it seems if the figures are right.

      Not just the parents will know but their relatives and friends and neigbours. So the unionist parties and MSM has fsked itself, showing itself up to be just “SNP Bad”. The yoons are the goons in the spitoons. Yeeeuch.

      Add that to education, SNHS, and it does seem like a plan is coming together.

      Quite a few posters back in 2012 reckoned the best thing the SNP could do is govern wisely. Well …

    92. Grant says:

      Statoil also operate worldwide, not just in the North Sea, which yoons have used in arguments with me in the past as to why Norway do soooo much better than Scotland. Interested to hear a reasoned argument to this please. 🙂

    93. crazycat says:

      @ Grant

      Statoil also operate worldwide, not just in the North Sea

      Is that not also true of all (or most) of the companies that exploit the Scottish EEZ? They just don’t have the state as a stakeholder, but their “Scottish” profits (and hence government revenue) are part of much larger operations.

      I don’t work in the oil industry, so if that’s wrong, I’m sure someone will tell me.

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      From Statoil: “About half of our business now takes place outside Norway, and we are present in several of the most important oil and gas provinces in the world. In 2014, we were engaged in production in 11 countries outside Norway: Algeria, Angola, Azerbaijan, Brazil, Canada, Libya, Nigeria, Russia, the UK, the US and Venezuela.

      Our international operations accounted for some 39% of our total equity production of oil and gas in 2014. We also hold exploration licences in Alaska, Canada, the Gulf of Mexico, South America, sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, North Africa, Europe, Asia, and Oceania. For details of the oil qualities we sell, please see our crude oil assays.

      So though half of the business is outside Norway, by the looks of it 61% (2014 figures) of the presumably total sales comes from Norway.

    95. Jock McDonnell says:

      The same publication also reports that Scottish unemployment is down but indicates an apparently disturbing trend – more self-employed.
      And there’s a delay to Scotgov payments to IT startups – why ? Its over subscribed.
      It seems we are creating lots of self-employed & IT startups, they better not start generating revenue or it will be SNP very bad. Really bad.

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      *Smacks own head*

      The profits and revenues Statoil make overseas will NOT be featured in the payments of revenue to Norway, except where some operations are based in Norway, or profits are reintroduced to Norway, and taxed as overseas earnings or something like that.


    97. Brian Powell says:

      If Norway’s Stateoil does half of its business overseas and gets around £18billion in a year when the UK loses £48 million from the same fields as the UK, then that overseas half must make the £18billion and the fields which it shares with the UK must lose money.

      That is not what is happening.

    98. Capella says:

      Good RT op edge article on neo-colonialism i.e. what happended when the old colonials were evicted. Enter the new colonial – USA.
      Oil is always a problem, unless you’re the USA.

    99. Hamish100 says:

      Colin Alexander signs off Rock signs in.

      Now he doesn’t like the Sunday Herald. Actually he doesn’t like the Sunday Herald front page exposing the lies and deceit of Westminster.

      Next he will tell us he doesn’t read the National but believes in Independence.

      Posted yesterday that the conferences season is on its way. Watch the yoonist attacks increase in ferocity.

      I still will work for independence. Rock and others should recognise our resolve.

    100. Alex Clark says:

      Taxes on Oil company profits are just a share of the overall revenues received by the government. In 2016 Taxes were around 1/3rd of overall income of £12.4 billion at £4.1 billion.

      Statoil has been much mentioned, they contributed a dividend of Just over £1 billion for the governments 67% share of the company. The largest contribution overall came from the State Direct Financial Interest fund (SDFI).

      This contribution to income was over £6 billion, this income comes from the small % share that the government buy in any new oil field to be developed in their waters and it covers all new development. They pay for their slice of the pie and benefit from any cream that gets added on top once profitable.

      Today, the state has direct financial interests in 190 production licences, 43 producing fields and holdings in 17 joint ventures that own pipelines and onshore facilities.

    101. Gary45% says:

      A headline that comes as NO SURPRISE, apart from the Sunday Herald printing it.
      The new School term i.e. “Parliament” is about to kick in, and the Indy friendly!??? Herald fires the first salvo.
      As I have already said its NO SURPRISE.
      Message to the Herald give us real new news, its a bit like having a headline in 2017 “The Titanic Sunk”.
      The oil industry is the tip of the iceberg, no pun intended.
      Scotland is Fuc*ed without Independence.

    102. Legerwood says:

      Chick McGregor @ 8.18

      We were in New Zealand in 2008. Then we were getting 2.5-2.7 NZD to the pound. Thereafter the pound started to drop and now you are getting 1.7 NZD to the pound or thereabouts.

      Petrol in New Zealand when we were there was around 80p per litre while in the UK it was nudging £1.30 per litre. Yet NZ imports most of its oil from the Middle East. Furthermore wherever we went whether in the North Island or South Island petrol was the same price. The only exception was the Southern Alps where it was about 5p per litre dearer. Yet within the area where I live you can get quite a variation in the cost of fuel.

      We were self catering some of the time and would often get a voucher In supermarkets for money off the cost of petrol!

      Really brings home to you just how much we are taxed.

    103. Chick McGregor says:


      You did well at 1.7, I think we were nearer to 1.5.

      On our first visit, 2006, I remember using 3 as the converter although I think it was slightly less than that.

    104. Iain More says:

      I was in NZ 14 to 15 years ago and I was getting 3.20 NZ Dollars to the Brit Piso. The Piso is even weaker now. On those Fishy Brit Salmon figures, the Piso makes them cheap or it could be that if it has a Saltire on it then it sells abroad.

      On other fishy matters, NZ was great place for fishing and it didn’t cost an arm and a leg to do it either. Nor did I have to mix it with toffs or run from Bailiffs. Why in the eff did I come home to a Nation that couldn’t get off its knees and vote Yes????

    105. heedtracker says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      20 August, 2017 at 4:30 pm
      Heedtracker @1253 posted this earlier but it’s disappeared, the answer to your question!

      Not half:D

      BBC r4 is the oddest tory freak out these days. Their politics shows are all made of lovely tory chats with jolly posh BBC hacks, who may or may not be tories too, but they probably are, considering they don’t exactly ask hard questions, say anything when their tory guest flat out lie or even debate much with them.

      Tonight beeb r4 gimps had on some christian tory dude from a religious magazine who was cheezed off about how Brexit wasn’t be sold properly to us, like it was a bad thing.

      All I could think of was just how much the tories have exposed their christian vote base as the most god awful hypocrites.

      And as per, total BBC r4 black out of SNP and Scotland anything.

      Our Scottish region of teamGB is being airbrushed off the face of the earth, by a vast tory crew of beeb gimps that would make Pravada hacks blush.

    106. heedtracker says:

      New Zealand’s a fantastic country, because its not by the fackin…

      USA satire,

    107. schrodingers cat says:

      re yesterdays discussion

      on sunday,
      estonia celebrated its Day of Restoration of Independence. Elagu Eesti!

    108. Robert Peffers says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist says: 20 August, 2017 at 2:35 pm:

      “@ Peffers: “The English, per se, have never actually been the bad guys.”
      *spits coffee on screen*
      Well, you’re entitled to your opinion.”

      I’m in my 80s, reluctant Nationalist and I worked in an MOD establishment where both the civilian workers and the service persons were predominantly English.

      Your normal Englander is much the same as the Welsh, Irish and Scots. The thing is the higher echelons of the white collar civil servant bosses and the officer classes of the service personnel were nearly all absolute bastards.

      Westminster is the enemy of Scotland, not the normal people of England and remember that some of the worst excesses of anti-Scottishness were carried out by Scots Buts.

      Mind you they were quite even handed in the way they treated their underlings from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland & England. They treated them all like trash and with utter contempt.

      The best example I can recall was on an RN ship that was in for emergency repairs. It had a collision with the stone base of the Forth Rail Bridge on the weekend when Her Maj was reviewing the fleet in the Forth when the Queen opened the then new road bridge. There was also two frigates in for repairs as they collided together while moored to buoys.

      Can you imagine how bloody stupid those skippers were who allowed their ships far too long moorings while subjected to the strong tides in the Firth of Forth? The tide turned and the ships swung round on the tide and collided. Not one but three separate ships. Two collided together and the other swung with the tide and hit the stone base of one of the Rail Bridge legs.

      Then, of course, there must have been a very senior officer, probably an Admiral, who drew up the plans of how the ships would be all moored line astern.

      He should have stipulated the length of each mooring minus the length of the ship. It ain’t as they say rocket Sceince.

      I had the job of providing the various services the workers doing the repairs needed for the job. I had to organise the electricity for the tools, emergency work lights, power for welders and so on.

      However, they also gave me responsibility for setting up all the other services. High pressure air lines for air tools, Diesel fuelled heating and canvas covers over working areas and so on.

      So I was working almost round the clock as the services had to be maintained and some of that had to be done in silent hours.

      But silent hours could not apply to the ships company who were not moved to the shore accommodation but remained on board ship.

      I was working on a repair of the electronic controls of a high output diesel heater and was under a canvas cover but could see out through a gap in the covers. I was hidden otherwise.

      There were two Jolly Jack Tars busily working away at a rather strange Heath Robinsonish contraption. This thing involved high pressure air lines, a coolant oil line, a length of steel pipe, (they used a bit of my electrical conduit). A ball of my thick cotton packing plus a big chunk of the yellow compound we electrical bods used to pack watertight glands through bulkheads and decks.

      Then they, amid great bursts of laughter, produced from the ships galley, (where they were on Jankers for some trivial misdeed that I never quite found out they had been put on jankers for), a large pail of rather obnoxious Galley Gash, (that’s cooking slops and waste food for you non-seafarers).

      Now I have to confess that I had no idea of the complex principles these Jolly Jack tars employed nor did I know who, or what their target was. I did gather that it was some form of weapon of revenge.

      The last thing they rigged was a length of fairly thin green twine, hardly more than a rather thick thread that was used in those days for whipping together multi-cores of electrical wires in a loom. The thing about that was the non-slip stuff they use on decks is also green so the twine was almost invisible.

      They retired back into the ship but had organised to watch through portholes. Their trap certainly worked a treat.

      The officer of the watch had the duty to patrol the ship at regular intervals and he was the intended target as he was the officer who had put the plotters on jankers.

      What the conspirators did not know was that the skipper had been entertaining some female guests ashore in the Officers Mess of the naval Base Shore Establishment and had invited them back to visit, “his ship”.

      The trip wire was triggered by the Skipper himself, but as he was in the lead he had moved on out of shot. It was the three young ladies he was leading around the ship who got hit by a high pressure jet of stinking Galley Gash and coolant oil all over their posh evening dresses.

      I got questioned by the MOD police as the culprits had nicked the stuff for their weapon from my stores locker that was only unlocked and open as I was on board and working hard.

      I denied all knowledge although I could have identified the culprits who were never caught and the angry skipper cancelled all shore leave for the entire crew for the duration of their stay in port.

      So there you are, the other ranks of that particular ship detested their officers and moral on the vessel was really bad.

      Matter of fact it ran aground at a later date on its way into Devonport Dockyard and the officer who had put the crewmembers on jankers was court martialled as again he was the Officer of the Day that time too.

    109. call me dave says:

      UK General Election 2017: 1.8 million Scots votes ‘wasted’ (BBC shortbread website)

      Sorry the top ten constituencies table part doesn’t archive.

    110. call me dave says:

      Hark the Herald:
      Little section from the story:

      TWO-thirds of the votes cast in Scotland at the General Election, almost 1.8 million, were “wasted” and had no impact on the result, according to voting reform campaigners. UK-wide, the figure was put at 22m votes or 68 per cent.

      The Electoral Reform Society in its analysis of the June poll, published today, said the current First-Past-the-Post [FPTP]system meant the SNP “continue to be over-represented in Scotland,” having won 36.9 per cent of the vote but having received 59.3 per cent of the 59 seats[35].

      In contrast, Labour won 27.1 per cent of the votes but picked up just 11.9 per cent of the seats[seven]. The Tories won 28.6 per cent of the votes and received 22 per cent of the seats[13] while the Liberal Democrats got the same share of votes as number of seats, 6.8 per cent[four].

    111. Artyhetty says:

      Oh, the oil, what we going to do when it runs out, said bettertogetha woman.

      Makes my blood boil, the whole stealing, cheating and squandering of Scotland’s resources, while keeping Scotland poor.

      Some comments on the people being too feart, or stupid re 2014 referendum. I am gonna be a bit soft on some, who were well and truly conned, big style. 100% of media bias, outright lies. Add to that 300+ years of indoctrination and assimilation, and sadly, too many were feart, preferring the status quo and feeling safer on a short (choke) leash with their London masters tugging at it. Some, just too comfortable to think about the consequences of a no vote, and did not really care, imo, dreadful people.


      Take a look at teleSUR tv for what’s going on in Venezuela right now. Trump is actually wanting to send in the troops to depose a democratically elected government. As you say, oil. The violent, barbaric actions of the ‘opposition’, ie the US in fact, are just horrendous. The rworld must support the government and people of Venezuela, if not, all hell will break loose.

      GERS. Do we get figures on England, Wales and NI at the same time? We all know that GERS is unionist fantasy and a complete con.

      Come on SNP, debunk the made up maths, and don’t agree with any of it! Tell people these are false figures and that the UKGov even admitted they were constructed to portray Scotland as a basket case. It’s the one opportunity that the media actually ask the ScotGov on to comment, hoping they will dig a deep hole.

    112. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Robert Peffers @ 12.51am

      Another terrific tale Auld Boab, with more ammunition on the stupidity of the UK;s Officer Class.

      They must grow them specially in our public schools. I recall the great George MacDonald Fraser’s line from ‘The General Danced At Dawn’, about the “Jocks” being willing to follow their “Ruperts” (English public school-educated officers) anywhere – “Out of a sense of morbid fascination”.

    113. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Peffers – awesome story, sir; it had me totally rapt.

      Loved it.

    114. Hamish100 says:

      Oh .. high speed train proposed between Birmingham and London will improve travel time from Glasgow to London by ONE hour.

      Yip that’s what I thought when the BBC lady helpfully put forward this suggestion on BBC reading scotchland.

      I thought I was a rational person but obviously not.

      Based on this analogy improving the Glasgow Oban line will improve services to Stranraer or Aberdeen

      Choo chooo.

    115. Ken500 says:

      It will only improve 20mins? between London to Birmingham. Then lose time changing trains to Glasgow. 40mins? A total waste of public money. Cost £Billions. The lines in the North and Scotland should be improved and electrified to save time and money. That would improve the service and cut time. Instead of wasting £Billions. The time on the east coast line in Scotland is being improved by faster, better trains being introduced.

      Scotland loses £20Billion to Westminster mismanagement. £4Billion lost Oil revenues, £3Billion tax evasion. Whisky companies etc pay no tax on vast profits, £4Billion loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. £1Billion on Trident, £1Billion could be saved on minimum pricing. Lost EU grants for renewables CCS etc because of Westminster indecision. £Billions. Scotland can’t borrow £6Billion to invest in the economy. £20Billion+ loss.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Westminster has caused the worst migrant crisis in Europe since 11WW. Brexit costing £Billions. £Trns of debt.

      Scotland raises more in tax revenues than the rest of the UK. £10Billion more pro rata. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £10Billion more pro rata. Scotland raises £54Billion. The UK raises £533Billion. The rest of the UK raises £43.5Billion pro rata. Borrows and spends more.

    116. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Just the ticket for morning cuppa. A bit of light reading. 😉

    117. Robert Peffers says:

      Artyhetty says: 21 August, 2017 at 2:25 am:

      Sometimes, and decidedly more and more frequently here on Wings, I become very depressed and start, for the first time in my life, to doubt that Scotland will ever again regain her independence.

      I do not get depressed by the actions of Westminster as I expect them to be anti-Scottish and the behaviour of the Westminster unionists, I also expect their British/English nationalism and I don’t get disheartened by the poor, misinformed Scots buts for they are victims of what you, Artyhetty, describe as them being:-

      “100% of media bias, outright lies. Add to that 300+ years of indoctrination and assimilation, and sadly, too many were feart, “

      No, what really has me doubting that Scotland can ever again free herself from Westminster’s grasping actions are people who profess to be supporters of Scottish independence who are clearly exhibiting all the very same symptoms as the Scots buts yet profess to support Scottish independence.

      Yes I do mean YOU, Artyhetty, for you diagnose the problem correctly yet you are showing you too are, in your own words, “… too feart, or stupid re 2014 100% of media bias, outright lies. Add to that 300+ years of indoctrination and assimilation, and sadly, too many were feart..”

      Then you correctly state, ” … GERS. Do we get figures on England, Wales and NI at the same time? We all know that GERS is unionist fantasy and a complete con.”

      But then comes the absolute proof that you are in exactly the same mind set as those you think are holding Scotland within the union when you state, “Come on SNP, debunk the made up maths, and don’t agree with any of it! Tell people these are false figures and that the UKGov even admitted they were constructed to portray Scotland as a basket case.”

      You get the diagnosis correct then make the same error of yelling SNPBAAD, and blaming the cure as the cause of the illness.

      You obviously fall into the same, “100% of media bias, outright lies. Add to that 300+ years of indoctrination and assimilation, and sadly, too many were feart, “ Scots who are unaware that the SNP have been telling anyone who takes the trouble to look outside of the, ““100% of media bias, outright lies. Add to that 300+ years of indoctrination and assimilation,” as the rest of those taken in by Westminster propaganda.

      The SNP, as a party, have always propagated, as best they could, the truth of the matter. We old hands knew and told Scots about the McCrone Report when it came out. We knew about and told Scots about the Niall Aslen, “Great Obfuscation”, exposure of the GERS figures.

      The SNP, as a government that the Westminster instigated Supreme Court ruled Westminster as being sovereign over Holyrood, are constrained to follow the Westminster set rules of Westminster and use the only official figures available.

      You are just as blinded by what you here state as, ““… too feart, or stupid re 2014 100% of media bias, outright lies. Add to that 300+ years of indoctrination and assimilation, and sadly, too many were feart..”

      Just because you have not found any evidence in the Scottish Main Stream Media, (Scottish MSM), or on the Westminster funded BBC or the Tory, (Blue, Red and Yellow), owned dead tree press you are blind to the truth that the SNP, (The party), have always given out the truth about the GERS figures and here you are on almost the only really popular political source of the truth blaming the SNP instead of the real culprits who are suppressing the truth.

    118. Alex Waugh says:

      No speculation but very best of luck whatever it is.

    119. Nana says:


      Good morning Sam, I reckon about two cuppas worth of coffee should get you through them all. Provided your cup is the size of a small bucket!

      It’s a pick’n’mix lot so hopefully something of interest to everyone.

    120. Legerwood says:

      Ms Davidson appears to have weakened from her summer slumber

      She has an article in the Telegraph today which, from the title, seems to be saying the Scottish Nationalists/ism is no different from any other.

      The article is behind the Telegraph’s pay wall so cannot give a link to it.

      David Torrance seems to be writing in a similar vein in today’s Herald

    121. Ghillie says:

      Thank you Nana! 🙂

    122. Nana says:

      Good morning Ghillie, you are welcome. It’s a beautiful day here, hubby away down to Alex unleashed so it’s just me and the dug.
      Peace and quiet for a while!

    123. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      With Scotland having no press that could honestly be described as Scottish, it is refreshing to have the Irish press covering Brexit. Some sane voices!

      The suggestion here is that the UK is trying to use the Irish border as a lever to get access to the single market for the whole UK. Which is of course the Brexiteers original cake and eat it plan.

      The solutions to the Irish border are either for the UK to stay in the single market properly, or to decouple Northern Ireland from the UK sufficiently to allow it to stay in the single market.

      Everything I hear about these so called negotiations is that the UK appears to want solutions which are almost certainly not going to be put on the table. Perhaps the UK’s enormous ego and self belief mean they actually think they will get what they want. However, IMO it’s all just a ruse so that then it all falls apart they can blame Johnny Foreigner.

    124. Tinto Chiel says:

      Good to see you back, Nana. That’s my morning taken care of.

      Schrodinger’s cat@ 12.51: sorry I missed Estonia’s Restoration Day. This is rather moving, though.

    125. Nana says:


      Indeed keep an eye on the Irish press, as you say they are covering Brexit quite well. Also worth watching politico eu


      I might not always be around to check what’s happening.

    126. Nana says:

      I replied to you with a list of other news outlets to watch, may have been a gremlin which has prevented the post from appearing.

      @Tinto Chiel

      Thanks Tinto, I was back yesterday, posted links on previous thread.

      Wouldn’t mind another holiday to recover from the latest one!

    127. James Barr Gardner says:

      Tinto Thanks for the youtube clip, very uplifting.

    128. Isn’t Westminster’s reverse Midas touch amazing,Scotland’s
      natural resources are worth less under Westminster control.

      Compared to that of independent Norway which has complete control of all of its resources and assets.

      I also noticed an article in Saturday’s daily stranger from unionist Prof Gallagher who is asking Nicola Sturgeon
      ahead of this year’s GERS figures, ‘What are you spending our extra money on.

      What does he think she’s spending the money on.

      She is doing what she and her government can to protect our public services, jobs and the poor and vulnerable form the worst affect of Tory austerity.

    129. Capella says:

      O/T Update on Heydrich – I’ve narrowed down the search to one or two sources.
      Vaclav Kral (ed) “Lesson from History” Prague 1961: documents concerning Nazi policies for Germanisation and extermination in Czechoslovakia. Docs 21, 22 and 24.

      Another possible source is Gunther Deschner “Heydrich: the Pursuit of Total Power” London 1981.

      The relevant phrases are quoted on p 135 of Callum MacDonald’s “The Killing of Reinhard Heydrich” citing a secret speech he made on 4th Feb 1942 outling his plans for the unsuspecting Czech people.

      The search continues!

    130. heedtracker says:

      HS2 is far more about multipliers than actual train times. Our imperial masters love these kinds of giant spends because a. their vote base in England really can actually see the money being spent and b. they’re a massive boost to local economies C. rail tracks and stations are not nearly as unpopular as say Heathrow’s expansions again with their English tory vote base. Which is why they keep putting all of actual vital investment, off.

      Its why Crash Gordo blew £10+bn on 2 carriers for Fife, his constituency, shock.

      All here, they can keep boosting London and south east’s infrastructure for ever and ever, because they really do have MAGIC money trees, called things like their Scotland region.

    131. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JBG: you’re welcome. Cheers me up to watch it, all those evil, threatening nationalists 😉 !

      Capella: keep on truckin’. Keen to hear your results.

    132. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      The cynic in me @Legerwood says at 9:08 am that:

      “Ms Davidson appears to have weakened from her summer slumber saying the Scottish Nationalists/ism is no different from any other.”

      “David Torrance seems to be writing in a similar vein in today’s Herald”

      Is probably to deflect attention from the Racist Tory Councillors who have just been reinstated quietly after a brief suspension.

      Remember folks Scottish Nationalism is evil and Bwitish Patriotism is very very good (the BBC/MSM tells us this repeatedly in the vain hope we believe it).

    133. galamcennalath says:

      ” A quarter of Leave voters believe they were misled by the Brexit campaign. “

      So that means three quarters of Leave voters actually still believe what the Leave campaign said!

    134. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…Scottish Nationalists/ism is no different from any other.”

      Davidson would say that. But what Colonial Davidson fails to comprehend is the difference between Scottish civic nationalism (outward and inclusive) and British ethnic nationalism (inward, exclusive, exceptional, blood & soil). The history of British imperialism adequately proves the difference.

    135. Brian Powell says:

      So Ruth Davidson calling all countries that became independent in the last 60 years nazi regimes. She would need to be writing in the Telgraph as any ‘paper’ with an open comments section would be getting some history lessons.

      Trying to create a narrative. It would be good to hear Nicola Sturgeon challenge Davidson’s view in Holyrood.

    136. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve stood with women, children, old folk, young people, black white brown people, disabled folk all waving Saltires and smiling or laughing listening to speeches or music and yet the mainly white men who stand in lines usually wearing football shirts or uniforms of distasteful organisations with their hands raised in Nazi fashion salutes with ugly anger etched onto their faces and held back by the police are supported by the media while I’m told that me and my group are the bad guys

      Their leader in Scotland rides around on tanks dressed in military uniform, indeed she has a commission within the ranks of her chosen preference and joins with and upholds the outdated traditions of sectarianism that is the Orange Lodge, but she calls me the bad guys too

      The Labour party in Scotland used to pretend to be the party of the people until they were found out to have been lying about that in recent years and they’re so angry at being caught lying by the people of Scotland that they’re even angrier than the official angry outfit and so much so they’ve refused to contemplate even talking to the actual winners of the democratic elections we have and supporting the ones who behave like the hand raising bunch previously described, shouting out loudly that me and my choices are yet again the bad guys

      Every day I wake up and wonder what it is I’ve done to make all these people keep angrily shouting at me, threatening me with various retributions of one kind or another, writing things in newspapers I never said, reporting on TV how I’m a divisive threat to whatever they decide I’m a divisive threat to, and that’s before they even start on the government I voted for, because when they do that it descends into even worse unpleasant stuff they appear to have done to upset folk, and they’re more badder guys than even me

      I guess it must be my lot in life to not understand I was born wrong in everything I say and do, in that I seem to go through my life upsetting the whole of society by my very existence, so for that I apologise to these previously described people everywhere for upsetting them and beg their forgiveness before they get so angry they want to kill me to show me once and for all

      I am the bad guy (fact)

    137. heedtracker says:

      Remember folks Scottish Nationalism is evil and Bwitish Patriotism is very very good (the BBC/MSM tells us this repeatedly in the vain hope we believe it).

      2014, BBC Scotland were sliming all over Glasgow south side burb Govan Hill, FM Sturgeon’s constituency. Peak BBC Scotland’s vote no or else hysterics in Govan Hill featured vox poppy interviews with “prominent” Govanhill business men, who explained that they thought if Scotland did vote yes, immigrants would either be sent home or not allowed in at all, because that’s what always happens. The Scots will only give themselves the jobs, they explained to assorted BBC Scotland outside broadcasters.

      Just normal SNP bad beeb Scotland gimp service. Since then however, yoon culture’s raged long and loud at Sturgeon in particular, when are you lot going fix Govan Hill’s immigration nightmare.

      There’s no depths they wont sink to in Pacific Quay.

    138. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      Heydrich’s speech of 4 Feb 1942 is referenced in Gerwarth:
      National Archives, Prague, 114-22, f.29

      Without access to these archives, and some translators, that isn’t very helpful.

    139. Sarah says:

      @schrodingers cat 12.51 a.m.

      Estonia’s Day of Restoration of Independence – well “Restoration” does seem to fit the bill, doesn’t it! Dignified and factual. Well done Estonia.

      And thank you sc for drawing it to Wingers’ attention. I live and learn [well, sometimes].

    140. Brian Powell says:


      I think Restoration of Independence is a good phrase, we should use it more often.

    141. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – but it must exist somewhere which means we are going to find it.
      I’ve ordered Kral’s book. There is one copy available from the US so it will be weeks before it arrives. But perhaps someone already has a copy and can check out the sections?

      @ Tinto Chiel – will do 🙂

    142. Meg merrilees says:


      Three quarters of leave voters is approx. 12 million – so the UK , approx. 60 million pop. is Brexiting to fulfil the wishes of 12 million people.

      Majority wish?

      Approx. 1 in 5 wants to leave, so we’re leaving!!!

      When will Britain waken up to this mess, stop the roller coaster and get off.

    143. Donald Bruce says:

      I do not see a future independent Scotland. The last election displayed what money and propaganda can buy. The Tories received thousands to ensure the Scots were bought. Now they are starting to target control of the Scottish government. Every day the anti SNP bile is passed to broadcast in papers and BBC.

    144. Tatu3 says:

      From Wikipedia “Estonia’s return to independence became possible as the Soviet Union faced internal regime challenges, loosening its hold on its outer empire. As the 1980s progressed, a movement for Estonian autonomy started. In the initial period of 1987–1989, this was partially for more economic independence, but as the Soviet Union weakened and it became increasingly obvious that nothing short of full independence would do, Estonia began a course towards self-determination.”

      Could Scotland not do something like this now that “The British Union faces internal regime challenges, loosening it’s hold on it’s outer empire …. but as the British Union weakens and it becomes increasingly obvious that nothing short of full independence will do, Scotland begins a course towards self determination”. All due to Brexit.

      Surely if such a wee place as Estonia can do it, we can?

      Also from Wikipedia ” The Estonian Sovereignty Declaration asserted Estonia’s sovereignty and the supremacy of the Estonian laws over the laws of the Soviet Union.[2] Estonia’s parliament also laid claim to the republic’s natural resources: land, inland waters, forests, mineral deposits and to the means of industrial production, agriculture, construction, state banks, transportation, municipal services, etc. in the territory of Estonia’s borders.[2] November 16 is now celebrated annually as the “Day of Declaration of Sovereignty”.

      Shouldn’t we, couldn’t we, just go for it? Restore our Independence? Estonia restored theirs. And doing really well.

    145. louis.b.argyll says:

      Robert P, 8:44
      you’re quite right..Nothing gets past you Robert, and worth pointing out.
      We see Artyhetty’s near-bullseye, bouncing back, off the wire of hypocracy. (Not saying it’s your hypocracy, Artyhetty-it’s politics! I do it myself.)

      None of the current ‘risks’ we’re facing, are of the SNP’s making.

      Nicola Sturgeon is a smart cookie with a wide-based progressive movement behind her.

      The SNP are by far the most honest and progressive party on these islands.
      Lies MUST ALWAYS be called out.
      If not sooner, then later.

      It is supposed to be illegal to lie within the legislative system.

      I have confidence in the SNP’s honesty, reacting to ‘events’ and defending our standard of living.

      The speed of change in Scotland right now must allow for other geo-political changes.

      We cannot leap lest the ground moves beneath us.

      Our nation is intact. Our powder dry.

      The SNP is the caretaker manager, not given a budget but expected to improve a failing squad. The board, Westminster, preferring debt-restructuring instead of a youth policy, to meet (and shape) future expectations.

    146. gus1940 says:

      Oh The Humanity!!!!!

      What’s with all this Big Ben Bollocks – what important news we should be hearing is it denying us.

      I understand that the work is primarily to the fabric of the building – not the clock and bells.

      If it’s so bloody important and the workmen’s health will be in danger from the noise of the bells surely it is not beyond man’s ingenuity to disconnect the link between the clock and the bells so that the tourists can still see the clock working.

      If it is not simple to make this disconnection – as part of the work – install apparatus as part of the work to enable the bells to be switched off and on easily – surely that wouldn’t take more than a few days to implement and the poor souls whose lives seems to depend on Big Ben would only have to suffer the torture for a few days.

    147. jfngw says:

      I see the main headline on the Scotland section of the BBC website indicates that 66% of Scottish votes were wasted in the GE. Of course it is geared towards an unionist viewpoint because as far as I can recall 71% of Scottish votes were wasted since only around 29% voted Tory but we still ended up with them having 100% of the power at WM.

      This story is taken from some comments from Electoral Reform Society, the BBC of course produce this verbatim as it suites their viewpoint. Without the full democratic deficit in Scotland being examined it lacks any real context.

    148. Ottomanboi says:

      This type of feature in the Anglo press has a patently racist subtext. We are deemed genetically incapable of self-government. That is the general thrust of the ‘argument’ against independence. We would simply cock it up! This is so typical of the condescending outlook prior to the collapse of the British empire projected on colonial Africa, ‘British’ India et al. The fact that many Scots believe this ‘filth’ is an indicator of how repressed, dependent and subordinate the mindset of the ‘other side’ has become. The SNP needs to considerably sharpen up its act. This is war.

    149. heedtracker says:

      Whole of England has a motorway and dual carriageway network 4 or 5 decades in advance of their Scotland region, much of it paid for with Not Scottish oil and gas revenues BUT, it’s all still not enough:-(

    150. jfngw says:

      It’s Monday, it’s time for British Nationalist columnists and media to roll out the weekly story that people wanting the government they voted for are closet Nationalist just a short step away from Nazism.

      The bad news is that a number of people in Scotland seem to believe this nonsense. These media writers are of course emboldened by the last GE results as they believe their SNP monstering is working. We should question every time we see an ermine draped former Scottish MP, what were their priorities, Scotland or their own ‘Richard Rich’ agenda.

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      IPPR North are pretty good, left leaning but angry about the poor treatment the North of England gets, I read quite a lot of their stuff during Indy Ref 1, and quoted it at times. IPPR Scotland has yet to make much impact on the media, but does seem to be making an effort to be cross-party as in this paper, which has essays from an SNP, Tory and LibDem, with Labour strangely absent!

    152. heedtracker says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      21 August, 2017 at 12:40 pm
      IPPR North are pretty good, left leaning but angry about the poor treatment the North of England gets

      The North is lagging behind London and south east in its rail network but its all still light years ahead of Scotland today. Its such a crock to have to listen to them whine.

      Every single English town and city, in the north especially has a road network way beyond anything in Scotland. Its always being expanded too. Look the new extra A1(M) lanes for Newcastle, which all stop dead, just past Newcastle.

      All of this colossal infrastructure investment in England has been in part funded by Scotland and all of it is based on the non economic principle, build and they will come.

      Have they come yet to the North?

      You can get lost in the blink of an eye in the North’s astonishing road network, from Sheffield to Manchester, Leeds, back and fore, an endless spiderweb of super quick highways, but still they want more.

      Or, look at the Perth to Inverness A9 death trap.

    153. Dr Jim says:

      Put the online abusers in jail says the UK Guv but don’t mention Scotland because we’d have to put our own parties and supporters in jail up there

      Gina Millers abusers get jailed
      Nicola Sturgeons abusers get to be Tory and Labour Councillors

      Funny old world

    154. Calum McKay says:

      Some folk on here are advocating Estonia’s approach to gaining independence, I don’t disagree, but would like to know more.

      Irony in the Estonia case for independence is that is was supported by the uk government, tories and labour parties.

      Yet, Scotland’s case when contrasted with others who have gained independence (examples being Estonia, Ireland, Norway or India) in the eyes of uk political parties and elite is that come hell or high water Scotland will remain a colony of England – no discussion, just propaganda.

      Are we not lucky to have such benevolent neighbour’s and rulers who take our oil, whisky, financial services, salmon, energy generation, tourism and engineering product’s from us, brand them as their own, take the profit, spent it on nuclear weapons and give us pocket money whilst telling us we are ingrate shites who should demonstrate our gratitude.

      Some call this pooling and sharing, it’s brilliant, I am suprised others aren’t queueing up to join?

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes and no about the North. Apart from the M62 there’s no good road across from NW to NE, and Manchester to Leeds could be far better served by rail as well. And the poor A1 north of Newcastle doesn’t help Newcastle’s communications with Scotland, which would be of mutual benefit, just to the South so they can bleed the region dry.

      Which is of course the purpose of HS2 in regards to Birmingham, and then Leeds and Manchester.

      It’s similar to the building of the M4 and Severn Bridge. This wasn’t for Wales’ benefit, but to help get workers and resources from Wales. It also reduced any “nationalist” tendencies in Wales.

      Birimingham by the way is described by the HS2 project as a “hub for Wales”. You what?

    156. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Thanks @Dr Jim says at 11:11 am




      You summed up the duplicity of the UK Establishment and its media way better than I could.

      You right we are a threat.

      A threat to their positions of power, wealth and influence.

      And all because we aspire to be a Nation which does things differently.

    157. Stuart Anderson says:

      Just back from some time off work and away from WOS. Reading through the previous posts I’ve gone from being slightly depressed to unbelievably gutted. Almost feels a hopeless situation…Brexit nightmare, Indy being crushed my MSM. I personally need something positive to look forward to…being Scottish right now, that’s a tall order.

    158. Robert Graham says:

      o/t – but relevant i believe.
      I just watched an interesting piece from an interview with Alasdair Stirling from the forward shop Dunoon , its posted on u/tube , it is on “the scottish manifesto” page just type that in and u/tube will find it for you .
      It gives a view of where we are ,and the limitations of what the SNP can do next , if anything without a radical change of course.

    159. heedtracker says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      21 August, 2017 at 1:03 pm

      Point is though, despite hundreds of billions being spent on The North’s road network, there has not been a resultant economic growth. A giant road network with almost no actual economic activity at the ends of them, other than UK gov public sector spend, much of that borrowed. Nissan in Sunderland’s like the one exception to prove the facts All primarily due to Thatcher era close down of heavy industry.

      But maybe new railways will be an answer.

    160. You have to wonder when those who like sheep and are led by the Judas goat still give their support Labour, will actually wake up to the reality.

      Labour has done nothing in my life time for Scotland, and under Corbyn is unlikely to do much, despite all what he’s peddling to people.

      Unless we have control of our own country things aren’t going to get better

    161. Dan Huil says:

      @Stuart Anderson 1:12pm

      Dinnae fash yersel, Stuart. There’s plenty positives to look forward to. You mentioned one youself: brexit. I find it positively hilarious to see Westminster britnats desperately trying to pretend they have a plan. The so-called united kingdom is a laughing stock. There is positively going to be a hard brexit. There is positively going to be indyref2. Positively followed by independence.

    162. Legerwood says:


      The Herald on-line has finally got around to reporting the story about the two Tory Councillors in Stirling having their suspensions lifted by Ms Davidson.

      Makes her criticism of Mr Trump over Charlottesville look hypocritical to say the least

    163. heraldnomore says:

      Did the Estonians not sing their way to Indy? Collective community singing, traditional. Vaguely recall seeing it covered in, I think, Michael Palin’s New Europe series some years back. Must dig out the book and see what he had to say.

      Let’s get singing folks.

    164. Daisy Walker says:

      Reply for Stuart Anderson at 1.12 pm

      Dear Stuart,

      Please don’t be gutted, although I have felt the same at times, and the last few months have been tough, I grant you.

      Its been non stop for 5 years, and if anything, having been scared witless – the establishment have increased their nonsense. They have the budget to do so.

      But lets have a wee look at what all that money is paying for. They have to pay for EVERYTHING in order to get their crooked message across, because they do not have the bodies on the ground.

      And they have to pay 10 times over, because their message is a crooked one.

      And they have to pay for the slickest of spin merchants because their crooked message defies democracy, it denies common sense and it defies justice.

      At every stage they have to finance this.

      It is important to know this because – the proven Most Effective Method of Marketing and Selling is the personal recommendation from someone you know and trust.

      Which is why all the door to door canvassing, and the street canvassing and the family and workplace conversations, were and continue to be so important. It is also why the conduct of every Yesser is important, all the biting of our tongues and the diplomacy is now paying off. We are all Ambassadors for Indie Scotland.

      And remember the phrase, ‘my heart says yes, but my head says no’, if you have a computer and a printer, fire it into action and start printing off the Rev’s Articles, start carrying them around. Don’t mention the McCrone report – hand them it.

      We cannot leave our pensioners behind this time, and that means printing stuff off for them and giving them faith that we are the one’s who’ve got their backs.

      We have a bank of material now, that was not in existence or had only just surfaced (for the majority of Scotland) back in Indie Ref 1.

      It cost upwards of £4000 for billboards and months of effort to crowd fund same. If someone can do that great… in the meantime, every car is a Billboard.

      And lets face a certain reality – the SNP as a responsible, political party and the Governing Party at Holyrood – occupy a certain amount of ground in this campaign – there’s stuff they can and should do, and some stuff they cannot touch with a barge pole and that other groups will have to do (nothing illegal I hasten to add).

      So let’s just get on with it. If its working and going in the right direction the SNP will catch up.

      Margo said, if every Yesser can persuade one person to change from no to yes, we will win and that was when we stood at below 30%.

      One myth busting fact, one person and one bit of decency at a time. Yes we damn well can.

      Naebody out thrawns the Scots… they’re playing tae our tune now.

    165. louis.b.argyll says:

      aye, and looking at this process historically, I have hope for the left in England, to show itself again..if not through Corbyn then his legacy.

      The Labour Party, along with leaders of other self-proclaimed progressive parties (some in power, some not quite) across Europe must allow Scotland’s peaceful democracy-seeking movement some credit and some protection from capitalist or corporate intervention.

      Make statements about how.-


      A simple transitional period perhaps, to harmonise systems and the like, but we’d never be out of the single market (unless Westminster forces us, legally) or in a queue to rejoin.

    166. Petra says:

      @ galamcennalath says at 9:32 am …. ”With Scotland having no press that could honestly be described as Scottish, it is refreshing to have the Irish press covering Brexit. Some sane voices! The suggestion here is that the UK is trying to use the Irish border as a lever to get access to the single market for the whole UK. Which is of course the Brexiteers original cake and eat it plan….”

      Galamcennalath you can find some excellent articles on Brexit in the National practically on a daily basis such as from Alyn Smith, Kirsty Hughes, Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp and so on. For example:

      One of the people that Nicola was in discussion with recently (Scottish Independence Convention) was Richard Walker consultant editor of the National which tells me that she obviously values the newspaper. I just can’t understand why, when so many people are griping about British Nationalists having practically total control over our media / bias being our greatest obstacle to acquiring our Independence, they won’t support this newspaper. The ONLY ONE trying to support us. Scots even those who want their Independence above all else seemingly often keen to cut off their own nose to spite their face.

      It would make you weep to think of how millions of Scots have suffered terribly over the last 300 years fighting for this cause and what some have had to endure to get their Independence much further afield, and closer to home in Ireland, and yet many on here won’t even stump up £1.74 a week (online), less than 30p a day, to keep this newspaper going. It’s no wonder we’re deemed to be a laughing stock by so many.


      Meanwhile Estonia with a population of 1,305,00.

      The Singing Revolution: Estonia 1991 (History Day Documentary)

    167. heraldnomore says:

      More on The Singing Revolution.

      Palin had little to say in the book, but pretty sure it was covered on screen

    168. Sinky says:

      Former Labour MP Pamela Nash now CEO of Tory funded Scotland in Union organisation.

      I am sure she was the one photographed with Ian (Union Jacket) Murray and one of the Scottish Labour MPs who voted with the Tory government for another £30 billion worth of cuts on 13 January 2015 that removed £2550 million from the Scottish government’s budget, yet they still complain about NHS and education cuts in Scotland.

      Here is the list of the Tory supporting MPs

      Douglas Alexander Paisley and Renfrewshire North
      Willie Bain Glasgow North East
      Gordon Banks Ochil and South Perthshire
      Anne Begg Aberdeen South
      Russell Brown Dumfries and Galloway
      Michael Connarty Linlithgow and East Falkirk
      Margaret Curran Glasgow East
      Iain Davidson Glasgow South West
      Thomas Docherty Dunfermline and West Fife
      Brian Donohoe Central Ayshire
      Frank Doran Aberdeen North
      Gemma Doyle West Dunbartonshire
      Tom Greatrex Rutherglen and Hamilton West
      David Hamilton Midlothian
      Tom Harris Glasgow South
      Jimmy Hood Lanark and Hamilton East
      Cathy Jamieson Kilmarnock and Loudoun
      Iain MacKenzie Inverclyde
      Michael McCann East Kilbride , Stathaven and Lesmahagow
      Gregg McClymont Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch
      Anne McGuire Stirling
      Graham Morrice Livingston
      Pamela Nash Airdrie and Shotts
      Fiona O’Donnell East Lothian
      John Robertson Glasgow North West
      Frank Roy Motherwell and Wishaw
      Anas Sarwar Glasgow Central

    169. Highland Wifie says:

      Heartening to see no MPs from my neck of the woods on your list of shame Sinky.
      Maybe it’s easier to get your nose in the trough in the central belt and Aberdeen. Or maybe our MPs just have more integrity.

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      @Stuart Anderson
      I was down a bit about it, but pretty upbeat now. Seems to me things are working away in the background, and we’ll start to see the results bit by bit, and fairly soon.

      Summer holidays are nearly over, schools are back, and remember Indy Ref 1 where it was the last 4 weeks where things started to move in our direction.

    171. cirsium says:

      @Donald Bruce, 11.47am

      I do not see a future independent Scotland.

      Think of this quote from William the Silent “It is not necessary to hope in order to persevere.”

    172. Petra says:

      Thanks for the list Sinky (2:36pm). Not one bit surprised to see the total ignoramus and embarrassment for Scotland …. Jimmy Hood …. on it. His comments probably sum up the whole SIU ideology.

      …… ”And if the Scottish people are going to be better off economically I’d still be against it (independence) ….’

    173. Shinty says:

      Robert Graham, here is the link to the article from
      Alasdair Stirling at the Forward Shop, Dunoon

      Great stuff, well work a look folks.

    174. Liam says:

      galamcennalath says:
      21 August, 2017 at 10:55 am

      ” A quarter of Leave voters believe they were misled by the Brexit campaign. “

      So that means three quarters of Leave voters actually still believe what the Leave campaign said!

      The percentage is probably smaller than 75% – once you’ve taken out the sizeable number who didn’t understand the question.

    175. The Proctor Lewis says:

      So Pamela Nash is now CEO of Scotland in the Union, 25 thousand members but can give her £55k per year for one and a half days work a week, I wonder if the Airdrie catholic girl will ever look around her at other members who make up most of the local Orange order and wonder if she has not just made yet another bad political decision.
      As one prominent SITU member said to me recently “I would vote Labour but its Fkn full of Fkn Tim’s, just like the Fkn SNP, fenians the lot”.
      Nice company Proctor and Pamela keeps.

    176. Highland Wifie says:

      @Petra 3.10pm
      That’s one shocking piece of footage. The enemy within right enough.
      What will it take to make them see how ludicrous they are. Or are such as these the 30% we just have to forget about?

    177. Petra says:

      Oh my God more good news for Scotland. It just keeps on coming.

      And dearie me they’ve really botched up in relation to fracking. The report concludes that for UK shale oil extraction, it’s (they are) 55 million years too late!

      That’ll really throw the spanner in the works for Dave Davis the man who’s planning to by-pass Scotland the Cash Cow when making trade deals with people like Trump. And he’d better hurry up because I don’t see Trump, for one reason or another, outlasting the UK / EU Brexit negotiations.

    178. clipper says:

      O/T when phoning up the bbc to cancel licence (been paying with card not DD) do I need to tell them my name & address or do I just need to give them the ref. no on my last statement?

      I’m obviously thinking that they would know name & address anyway once I give them the ref no but not entirely sure b/c I read something recently about withdrawing right of access and in order to do that you have to give them your name address.

      I’m cancelling anyway whatever bullshit they come out with but I just want to be prepared in advance. For example someone here the other day said something about them asking about internet connections, I wouldn’t have expected that and might have been caught off guard, now I’ll just tell them I don’t have one.

      Should I mention anything about withdrawal of right of access and if yes do I need to confirm my name & address?

    179. Jack Murphy says:

      Robert Graham said at 1:13 pm today:

      “…..I just watched an interesting piece from an interview with Alasdair Stirling from the forward shop Dunoon , its posted on u/tube , it is on “the scottish manifesto” page just type that in and u/tube will find it for you .

      It gives a view of where we are ,and the limitations of what the SNP can do next , if anything without a radical change of course.”

      Thanks. Here’s the direct link:

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyone know the percentage of funding of Scotland in Union that comes from the Tories? Is is obligatory for members and the Chief Executive Pamela Nash to join the Conservative and Unionist Party, or just highly recommended?

    181. Petra says:

      @ Highland Wifie says at 3:24 pm …. ”Petra that’s one shocking piece of footage. The enemy within right enough. What will it take to make them see how ludicrous they are. Or are such as these the 30% we just have to forget about?”

      That’s what we ARE up against HW. In his (Jimmy Hood) case of course blatant ignorance staring us all in the face with his moronic ”even if there was a grand, grand, great thing at the end of the rainbow” … aye right from a man who who educated? pre-SNP government; others with their own axe to grind and of course the crew that want their cake and eat it …. or so they think …. until the penny drops that there will be no freebies / NHS left in Scotland if we remain part of the Union.

      100% – 30% = 70% and it’s that 20% that we have to work our butts off to convert. As mentioned already if every last one of us managed to enlighten at least one other we’d be home and dry.

      Meanwhile the Tories at Westminster are giving us a helping hand on a daily basis. Referendum next year followed by Independence. The train has come at long last, the engine’s humming and we are getting on board.

    182. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 20 August, 2017 at 1:00 pm:

      “There is very little debate on here and as it’s more of a “senior citizens for the SNP” chat room.”

      Yeah! Another one bides the dust as CA crawls away with his figurative tail between his legs and, “senior citizens for the SNP”, win again just as Scotland, arguably. the most senior state in Britain will win in the end as the YoonYoonists figurative tails get tucked between their YoonYoonist legs as they too slink away in disarray.

      Nah! Colin, our top topic, when we get peace from you YoonYoonist goons, is how well an independent Scotland will interact with the rest of the non-Blood & soil Nationalist like the UK/England/Britain nationalists do.

      Dinna haste ye back.

    183. HandandShrimp says:

      Good things about the Tory councillors being readmitted

      1) At least we know where they are
      2) Mad Col Ruth MacMad surrenders the high moral ground
      3) Kezia should be outraged that there are people more bad than the SNPbad people (but she probably won’t be and joins Ruth at 2) above).

    184. Robert Graham says:

      jack murphy – thanks for posting the link i am sure it was previously posted by someone here on wings,
      It sure gives a no holds barred in your face view and appraisal of the situation just now , the one that most people are avoiding right now , and the question is ” WHAT NEXT ” .
      The only thing is it kinda gives some credence to Mr C Andersons views and that made me a bit uncomfortable , with all due respect to Mr Anderson .
      After all these years of propaganda against independence , I now question any and every statement dressed up as supporting it , after watching this interview i started to think maybe this guy has a point , a competent government is one thing but are we actually moving forward ? or just reacting to events and making the best of a untenable situation , the safe route , the one that causes least friction , anyway made me think , ha ha now thats a first .

    185. Albert Herring says:


      They don’t have right of access, not in Scotland anyway, so i wouldn’t worry about it. If they come to your door, just tell them to go away.

    186. Marcia says:


      No need to ring them, fill in the form and tell them you are off to Australia or you hate their propaganda.

    187. Robert Graham says:

      Oops wee typo in my last rant it should have been Mr C Alexander instead of Mr C Anderson , I usually don’t read his posts, his many hour on the hour posts are usually a bit repetitive. That’s what I was referring to in a post on a previous thread that was misinterpreted by a few as getting at them , I was referring to the famous mr Alexander who seems to have taken up residence here .

    188. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Are we not lucky to have such benevolent neighbour’s and rulers who take our oil, whisky, financial services, salmon, energy generation, tourism and engineering product’s from us, brand them as their own, take the profit, spent it on nuclear weapons and give us pocket money whilst telling us we are ingrate shites who should demonstrate our gratitude.”

      Calum McKay @1.02: I liked that so much I was about to say that that should be on a billboard in the Indyref2 campaign, but then realised about 30% 0f Scots would agree with it.

      That’s our problem, I’m afraid.


    189. Dorothy Devine says:

      Daisy , though it wasn’t meant specifically for me ,I enjoyed your pep talk.

      Petra , loved the singing revolution , though fraught with difficulty.

      I am not sure that my singing would convince anyone and might well offend those of musical ears but I am willing
      ( not so able!)

    190. Robert Louis says:

      People really, really need to watch this video, as posted up above, from the forward shop in Dunoon.

      It is a long video, but genuinely thought provoking and worth watching all the way through for the end section is most, most interesting. It centres on current strategy for independence, and the ongoing rampant unionism, and the role played by the SNP and its leadership.

      From my perspective, I agree with almost every single part of it. I would urge SNP members in particular to watch it, since the points made are important.

      Here is the link;

    191. Rock says:

      Derek Rogers,

      “Perhaps Norway would do better if it was part of a larger state that could protect it by sucking out all its wealth.”


      “whats that phrase again. you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. unless its the Scots, you can rip the you know what out of them 24 7 365.
      or so it would appear embarrassing beyond belief”

      No people on earth are as “stupid” as the unionist majority of Scotland.

      But behind that stupidity lies self interest.

      They are fine and they don’t care about the less well off.

      5-10% are the not really stupid but were scared to death into voting No by the likes of ASDA.

      The “vow” had negligible effect and just gave the No voters a further excuse into voting No.

      It was the likes of ASDA that won it for the unionists.

    192. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “You are quite right.There is about 30% of the electorate impervious to reason. We waste our time trying to debate with them.”

      (19th May 2017 – Becoming the squirrel):

      Tam the Bam:

      “Thing is Rock…there exists a sizable portion of the Scottish electorate who are totally unfazed by that….that’s were we are now.”


      “Yes, and I can tell you which portion:

      The selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English.

      Unfortunately, many independence supporting posters here seem hell bent on wasting valuable resources on trying to convince these diehard No voters to vote Yes.

      To stand any chance, the official Yes campaign next time has to be robust and targeted at those who can actually be convinced: the ignored underclass.”

    193. HandandShrimp says:

      Greg Moodie’s cartoon strip in the National made me smile today.

    194. Petra says:

      @ Jack Murphy says at 3:32 pm …. ”Alasdair Stirling …. it gives a view of where we are, and the limitations of what the SNP can do next, if anything without a radical change of course.”

      I watched that too Jack but it’s another person, imo, advocating what we should do (not even really doing that) when we don’t have a majority (seemingly) supporting Independence. I also wonder why so many people are willing to take the chance that we lose by being ‘radical’ right now when we can sit back and watch the Irish border / hard Brexit situation unfold over the next 12 months or so and in doing so achieve more support.

      If for some reason or another the end result of that isn’t conducive to us getting our Independence THEN let’s think of getting ‘radical’ but more than anything ask the advocates of radical action to outline the PRACTICALITIES of their plan in detail. Complaining about the SNP whilst having nothing constructive, more so potentially destructive, to offer doesn’t do it for me.


      @ Dorothy Devine says … ”Petra, loved the singing revolution, though fraught with difficulty. I am not sure that my singing would convince anyone and might well offend those of musical ears but I am willing ( not so able!)”

      Dorothy I can’t sing for peanuts either but if we ever get to the stage of being involved in a singing revolution you and I can stand side by side and mime and make a better job of it than John Redwood, LOL.

      And we’ll no be singing, eh miming, this one. That’s for sure.

    195. heedtracker says:

      : the ignored underclass.”

      That’s essentially every Scot today, in teamGB Rock.

      Dont you read The Guardian at all Rock?

      Scots do not feature in any The Guardian news these days, since 2014. The odd proud Scot but pops up now and again, to smack down uppity jocks but otherwise, in the UK media zone…Scotland’s a nice place for hols and some uk hacks like to say some nice things about Scotland’s capital city’s biggest in the world arts festival:D

    196. schrodingers cat says:

      not sure about class of no voters, they seem to cover all walks of life, but but a large % of no’s will not be persuaded to change. forget them.

      it is the voters in the middle, those not hard yessers or noers who need to be convinced to vote yes.

      brexit is currently doing that convincing for us.

      the damage being done to the uk isnt from leaving the eu, it is from leaving the single market and the customs union.

      tying a yes vote into an automatic application to join efta/eea is they way to convince the floating voters in the middle to vote yes.


      once we have negotiated our departure from the uk, we can look at rejoining the eu at a later date probably via another euref in the 2nd half of the next holyrood parlaiment

    197. galamcennalath says:

      US Third World style healthcare. This is what Scotland could end up like for many people if the Brexiteers’ dreams come to fruition.

      Absolute disgrace! Everyone should watch this and think long and hard about how utterly amazing NHS Scotland is and how much it is worth fighting for.

    198. schrodingers cat says:

      Scots do not feature in any The Guardian news these days, since 2014

      good, let them continue to highlight just how bad leaving the sm and cu is for the whole of the uk, once everyone realises this, then we will offer scotland a get out of jail free card via indyref2

      our supporters didnt show up in last election, they wanted to know what brexit means before opting for indyref2, so let them find out.

      gbp vs euro on 22nd june 2016 was 1.4

      today it is 1.0910

    199. Petra says:

      @ Rock says at 5:20 pm … “…. To stand any chance, the official Yes campaign next time has to be robust and targeted at those who can actually be convinced: the ignored underclass.”

      Have you ever thought of getting yourself a part-time job delivering the National to the ”ignored underclass” or shoving some Wings books / flyers through their letter boxes?

    200. schrodingers cat says:

      the unionists know brexit is a disaster for the union, this is why the bbc are running thire top story tonight about Minford a brexit economist, saying everything will be great…..

      they have no choice, the future of the union is now tied to brexits success

      it isnt looking good for the unionists

    201. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat

      Maybe that Colin Alexander the great non unionist sovereignty specialist (bloody hell I can now spell sovereignty without spell checking thanks to Co) had a point about a more nuanced ref2 question on the ballot paper, if that’s what he was on about.

      Less of a YES and NO, more of an options ballot paper, not too scary for undecideds.

      Lets face it, even without BBC Scotland vote NO or else fury at us all, Project Fear 2014 went terror mental, from huge billboards everywhere with terrified looking nanas and grandpas, to frightened looking mums and their children.

      Then there’s JK Rowling’s style of vote NO and we English will love you like you’ve never been loved before, kind of horror:D

    202. auld highlander says:

      galamcennalath @ 5.48

      medical debt is the No. 1 source of personal bankruptcy filings in the U.S.,

    203. Dr Jim says:

      Voluntary Act of Union

      No it wasn’t! No consultation within the Kingdom of Scotland was ever undertaken by anyone so how does a document become legally enforceable without precedent or popular support by the actual populace in circumstances where money changed hands to create a legality

      If any newspaper today had been present at such a transaction and filmed this event secretly the perpetrators would have been arrested and then legal proceedings would ensue on the grounds that a gigantic fraud had been committed against a people

      That’s my route to Independence, put an end to this fiction that the Act of Union is or was ever legal, then have the referendum to see if Scotland wishes to join the United Kingdom and let’s just see the result of that poll

      What do we think? It’s the same referendum but in reverse
      I’d bet my house the Unionist numbers wouldn’t get above 20%

    204. heedtracker says:

      Have you ever thought of getting yourself a part-time job delivering the National to the ”ignored underclass” or shoving some Wings books / flyers through their letter boxes?

      Rock’s the kind of dude that thinks his Scottish “underclass” need educated, and once his Scottish underclass has been educated, then they’ll vote… because why? who knows.

      Je suis Scottish underclass:D

    205. heedtracker says:

      Has the great Greg Moodie, ever been approached by stinky olde The Graun? Or the author of this blog come to think of it.

    206. schrodingers cat says:

      true heed
      but yoon meeja went radio rental last time and we still got 45%

      regardless of the question, it will do so again. we cant stop that

      but their economic argument for the yoonion will be shot, as will be their credibility.

      we can win this

    207. crazycat says:

      Here’s another looming disaster for the Brexit negotiators:

      Are they doing it deliberately? “Never attribute anything to malice that can adequately be explained by incompetence” notwithstanding, I am starting to wonder.

    208. schrodingers cat says:

      “The Bongs o’ Big Ben are a’ wede away”.


    209. Cactus says:

      Evening Dr Jim ~

      “That’s my route to Independence, put an end to this fiction that the Act of Union is or was ever legal, then have the referendum to see if Scotland wishes to join the United Kingdom and let’s just see the result of that poll”

      Which made me think of some more, now obvious questions…

      1) Who has this original “Act of Union” document / contract?
      2) Where is it kept / preserved?
      3) Was it signed and dated by persons from both kingdoms?
      4) Why have we never seen it before?

      I want to see it for real in the flesh… don’t YOU?

      Or was it just another schneidy vow?

      Show me the money.

    210. Shinty says:

      No snow on Ben Nevis, first time since 2006, gripping stuff from BBC Shortbread.

    211. Sinky says:

      Channel Four repeats “Spanish” rather than Catalan Police killed last Barcelona terror suspect.

      No mention of Tory Councillor online abusers being re-admitted to Party or of Business for Scotland oil taxation challenge by BBC Scotland or STV this evening but BBC running another one sided story on Football Offensives Act.

    212. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi heedtracker at 5:59 pm.

      You typed,
      “schrodingers cat

      Maybe that Colin Alexander the great non unionist sovereignty specialist (bloody hell I can now spell sovereignty without spell checking thanks to Co) had a point about a more nuanced ref2 question on the ballot paper, if that’s what he was on about.

      Less of a YES and NO, more of an options ballot paper, not too scary for undecideds.”

      I addressed Mr Alexander’s suggestion at 9.43am yesterday (Sunday).

      I typed,
      “For an expression of Scots sovereignty to be recognised by the wider international community, the result of the independence referendum would have to be 50% + 1 in favour of independence.

      Your multi-option suggestion could merely dilute the YES vote across a number of options, most likely resulting in the 50% + 1 threshold not being achieved, thus the Status Quo continues – no independence.

      Either you haven’t thought through your strategy to achieve independence, or you have thought through your strategy to achieve the Status Quo.

      Therefore, you are either naive, or blatantly transparent in your motive here.”

      Indyref2 has to be a straight choice – an independent Scotland or we remain under the control of Westminster.

    213. Flower of Scotland says:


      I watched that video and now don’t know what to think. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

      I’ve been a member of the SNP for 41 years and have voted for them for 53 years. According to Alisdair Stirling the SNP only ever wanted more devolution and have nowhere to go now. They’ve boxed themselves in. It’s great to hear lots of views about what should happen now.

      Not sure what happens next!

    214. Legerwood says:

      Cactus @ 6.58 and Dr Jim

      There is the Treaty of Union and the Acts of Union – one passed by the Parliament of England and one passed by the Parliament of Scotland – these acts ratified the Treaty of Union and the articles therein.

      The National Archives, National Library of Scotland and UK Parliament have most if not all of the documents some of which were exhibited in 2007

    215. Dorothy Devine says:

      Petra, you’re on – we can have a caterwauling duet.

      Loved the NA with John Redwood. I always thought of him as a sort of Ichabod Crane character – not in the nicest possible way either.

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      @Marcia says: 21 August, 2017 at 4:43 pm:
      “Clipper, No need to ring them, fill in the form and tell them you are off to Australia or you hate their propaganda.

      There is no legal obligation for anyone to tell the BBC anything whatsoever. In the first place the BBC are a private corporation that is funded, not directly by the licence payer but by an annual grant from the Westminster parliament of taxpayer’s money.

      In effect we pay for the BBC whether we take out a licence or not. Now consider what the word licence actually means – it means you have permission, (in this case by Westminster), to watch live TV broadcasts. You are legally paying to have Westminster’s permission to watch live TV but you are already, even if you do not watch any TV for the BBC via your tax. As the main tax take is now indirect taxation, (Like VAT), then your tax is being used by Westminster to fund the BBC.

      However, Westminster has made the BBC liable to collect the licence fee for the treasury and the BBC has farmed out the collecting of the licence fee to a debt collecting agency.

      It is that private company that is breaking Scottish Law by threatening innocent people who do not watch TV with legal action. Under Scots law that is, “Demanding Money with Menace”, and falls under the heading of, “Coerscion”, as there is no such law as Blackmail under Scottish law.

      Now these people are not a law enforcement agency like the Police or Traffic Wardens but they attempt to fool people into believing that they are. They refer to themselves as, “Officers”, but anyone who works from an office is an Officer. They are not law enforcement officers and have no more investigative rights than any other member of the public.

      Here is the right that anyone has to access private dwellings. They may enter a garden, yard or common stair in order to gain access to the main entrance in order to contact the occupiers – unless the occupiers have posted a notice that states, “No Cold Callers”, or the older Scottish notice, “No Hawkers”.

      They have ne rights to actually enter the dwelling unless invited to do so by the legal occupiers.

      So here is the very best advice I can give you – do not in any way communicate with either the BBC of their debt collectors as there is no legal requirement for you to do so.

      This may result in them actually breaking the law by pestering you to pay a licence fee that you are not due to pay because you do not watch TV.

      So they are illegally assuming you are guilty of criminal behaviour, (Illegally watching TV).

      They are attempting to extort money from you using threats of legal action – It is called Coercion as there is no such law as Blackmail in Scotland and they are, by attempting,by the use of pseudo-legalese terms and inferring they are law enforcement officers.

      Let them continue to stew and spend BBC money on maintain the debt collectors and printing threatening letters and paying the postage of those letters – not to mention the upkeep of offices and officers.

      Why oblige the BBC when you can, in effect fine them, by allowing them to continue to pay to attempt to get you to pay for something you do not want or need?

      I do something the same with cold telephone callers. I have an answer machine but I can turn the sound of the telephone ringer and the voice messages off.

      It flashes a wee red light if there is a call. One flash for each unanswered call. However, the really funny part is that there is no human making the calls to my machine.

      It is a computerised calling machine they use and the reason I know this is because a human being would, “Wait for the tone”, before rambling on with their cold call with such as, “If you want to contact an agent – press number 1, if you want to get a quotation press button 2. If you want removed from our list press button 9 and so on. Their machine just rattles right on with the above example without waiting for the beep to sound.

      So their machine is talking to my machine and neither machine is listening.

      Thing is my machine tells callers I cannot decipher voices over the phone but that I can be contacted by FAX on that same number, Receive text on my mobile phone and it also gives them my postal address.

      To date only one actual live person has ever had the need to contact me after failing to reach me via my answer machine.

    217. starlaw says:

      Stated aim of the SNP is an independent Scotland. If Westminster retain a thread of control they will eventually strangle Scotland with it. Why would an independent Scotland want any dealings with them. other than trade.

    218. Dan Huil says:

      Timing is everything. Not yet but soon. Stay cool.

    219. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Jack Murphy at 3.32

      Just to be clear Alastair Stirling has no position in the Forward Shop at Dunoon and does not express in any way the considered opinions of the members of YES Cowal.

    220. Liz g says:

      Flower of Scotland @ 7.22
      He said some interesting stuff right enough…but that didn’t stack up with what Alex Salmond (who knows Nicola and her team better) has been saying.

      I also don’t agree that Theresa’s May’s “now is not the time” position has closed off another referendum for us.
      That’s the bit that should IMHO go into a court first if they tried to stop it.
      Where I kind of agree is the bit where he said put ending the Union in the manifesto.

      My position is that the next Indy ref should be the last one.
      Obviously if we vote yes…..but also if Westminster and it’s minions interfere and pull back to a no.
      In other words Scotland once again doesn’t get peace to look at the choice and make a decision,with out them running interference.
      In which case ending the Union should be the no 1 manifesto commitment in each and every Election.
      Every election would be a judgement on continuing with the Treaty arrangement or not.

      We already know that Scotland can return MP’s and MSPs in a majority for Independence.
      Even if they manage to shut down Holyrood we still have the Westminster elections to give our verdict on the Union.

      I am no a fan of the Provoke a reaction strategy,I am no interested in playing games with Westminster.
      I am mindful of all the shit Westminster pulled on Ireland,and am no willing to give them an excuse.
      I am more for just getting a vote organised, referendum first and every Election after it, if it is necessary.
      And as others have said….at this point in time we can sit back and let Westminster do the heavy lifting.
      They are wrecking the Union just fine at the moment.
      So hang fire Flower of Scotland and wait for the right time to use the get out of jail free card that we still have!

    221. Jock McDonnell says:

      I watched the Dunoon video.
      It certainly chimes with me – I believe Westminster only rules here for as long as we tolerate it.
      We should constantly dispute the premise on which they seek to govern us.

      While some of Alasdair’s suggestions may be a little bit away, you can adopt the mindset now, if you have not already, criticise & deny the totems of the British agenda.
      Compare it to other expansionist & imperialist projects, recall the desire for democracy, Independence & a multinational Europe that was fought for in the 1940s – via cooperating Independent countries.
      Talk of Independence positively, always, in different contexts, the Independence of your children, of small business, of elderly people, of thought & of course the 4th of July.

      If nothing else, it will drive The Mooth nuts.

    222. Phronesis says:

      Still no good news about Brexit for anyone other than (Empire 2) biscuit manufacturers. The writer advises that the UK government develops spatial awareness- an impossibility for a cabal that are highly myopic and can’t see beyond the WM bubble.

      ‘All British cities are set to be negatively affected as a result of higher trade costs between the UK and EU, and this impact will be greater in the scenario of a ‘hard Brexit’. Economic output in cities (as measured by Gross Value Added, GVA) is predicted to be 1.2 per cent lower on average under a ‘soft Brexit’ and 2.3 per cent lower under a ‘hard Brexit’ than if the UK remained in the EU…
      Cities that are predicted to be most negatively affected by Brexit were more likely to vote remain in the 2016 referendum…

      National government needs to consider the spatial implications of deals negotiated and support cities to adapt to changes in the UK’s international trading relationships. Cities should combine this insight with local knowledge to consider how approaches to local economic development should be restructured…’

      ‘In absolute terms London is the largest contributor, responsible for 28 per cent of the country’s exports, followed by the other big cities including Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow and Bristol. But in terms of export intensity (measured as the value of exports per job) it’s car manufacturing cities such as Sunderland and Coventry, pharmaceutical exporting cities such as Worthing and Slough, and energy and engine manufacturing cities such as Derby and Aldershot that are most reliant on exports as a driver of economic growth and jobs…

      Given the UK government’s drive to increase exports to non-EU market, and the US in particular, Trump’s protectionism could also have a significant bearing on the economic prospects of UK cities such as Hull and Derby. And if Theresa May’s vision for a ‘Global Britain’ comes at the expense of an EU trade deal, the fall-out for all UK cities will be significant’

    223. Cactus says:

      Cheers Legerwood ~

      Isn’t it strange how the passing of the two unions by the parliaments of each country, didn’t even happen on the same day? Years apart in fact.

      In normal business practice ye would agree, sign, date and shake hands on the same day. I guess things were way different, waaaaay back then 🙂

      YES is gonna be the biggest party on the planet, this side of the…

      21st Century iScotland!

    224. Phil says:

      21 August, 2017 at 7:38 pm

      @Robert Peffers

      One hopes that one downstream result of Independence for Scotland will be no more spineless favours for the comms industry. And that Scottish Comms Ltd will straitjacket the debt collectors into civilised behaviour.

      I think all you say is correct; it surely matches several decades of failure from BBC / Crapita / et al to collect one penny from this house.

      My wife is bored making a welcoming plate of pancakes on the day of the threatened license officer’s visit. Despite their threats and reiterations of my repeated violations no officer has appeared. Neither has any TV signal ever permeated these walls.

      The nuisance calls represent another nod from UK Government to their big business chums. The lack of choking these calls off is deliberate. I would look for The Government of Scotland to take the technology by the horns ( use IP, etc.) and bring down very hefty fines upon any out-of-order calling company – at home or abroad. Levy the fines. If any management suit steps upon Scotish soil lift him / her.

      This is neither a right-wing nor a left-wing view. It is one of many, many initiatives The Government of Scotland should promulgate as soon after Scottish Independence as possible.

    225. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ CAPELLA + Crazycat

      “The relevant phrases are quoted on p 135 of Callum the unsuspecting Czech people.”
      What’s in the books I don’t know and I can’t find any transcripts of the contents – at least not yet.

      In the speeches there’s nothing anywhere near your quotes. Same goes for other speeches till now.

      In the Feb. 42 speech he talks about the Czech being a Slaw, you can bend him but he won’t break. Bend him and then let go and he pops up again. He’s an opponent so you’ve got to keep him down.

      2 Oct. 1941

      4 Feb. 1942

      17 Dec. 1941 (Podcast copy of Heydrich speaking)(Squeaky voice..!)

      ** Could you post the original English quote in full so that I can copy it again – I’ve somehow lost it.**
      MacDonald’s “The Killing of Reinhard Heydrich” citing a secret speech he made on 4th Feb 1942 outling his plans for

    226. Dr Jim says:

      Act of Union again

      High placed folk with money doing stuff that suited them and not stuff that suited low placed folk with no money
      My point is I don’t ever remember any evidence of any public consultation so it was decided on by those who felt they owned Scotland or ruled Scotland

      But no democratic accountability so how does legal certification arise from such dealings that should be applicable to todays laws
      I’m just spinning stuff here with no legal expertise whatsoever but if you can just repeal a dodgy bad law like slavery for example why not something else

      Or!!! If the UK Guv can dig up a Henry the whatsisname law to give themselves power why is it not so that we could rescind another that Scotland is supposedly a signatory to
      when Scotland has to abide by the Henry the whositsname law we never signed up to at all

      Every time I hear of this stuff it rankles me that the UK Guv can either invent laws or reinvent laws and call them legal then apply them to Scotland before we were ever in a Union with them

      We used to have laws in Scotland that said if you come on my land to steal my cattle and property I can take your head with my big sword

      I rather like the idea of repealing that Scottish law before the Union existed
      Union of equals and all that, if UK can reinvent old laws why can’t Scotland

      They say we have our own legal system well let’s be cheeky and sneaky with it

      I know, I’m just one of those bad Nationalists inta

    227. Legerwood says:

      Cactus says:
      21 August, 2017 at 8:17 pm
      Cheers Legerwood ~

      Isn’t it strange how the passing of the two unions by the parliaments of each country, didn’t even happen on the same day? Years apart in fact.

      It was actually a matter of months. Treaty of Union July 1706. Each Parliament debates it then Acts passed and given Royal Assent and Treaty comes into effect May 1707.

      Remember no trains, no phones no email so things took longer.

      Thought the whole thing was done pretty quickly all things considered. If it had gone on longer then it might not have happened at all.

    228. Shinty says:

      Flower of Scotland

      I don’t think he’s saying that. My take is they have taken a route of more devolution, believing this to lead eventually to indy.
      However, that bubble has now been burst as he explains in detail. , ie many of the devolved powers are simply, putting a kilt on England’s policies – we still have to negotiate with London on many devolved issues.

      Red, White and Blue Unionism is being flaunted day in and day out by all England’s parties,their Scottish Branch departments, the MSM & BBC.

      Their is no democracy within the Union and the sovereignty of the people of Scotland is being ignored (and has been from day dot)

      In short, I think he’s saying FFS Scotland get aff yer knees and protect your sovereignty from your aggressive neighbouring government. Scotland is supposed to be an equal partner in the ‘union’ not just tenement dwellers. Scotland is out voted on everything from Trident to Syria and beyond.

      For sure the FM is doing everything she can to make Scotland better for Yes and No voters alike. She cannot discriminate, she is FM of all of Scotland and this is what holds her back.

      A country like Scotland does not need austerity driven policies. Scotland more than pays her way yet we are constantly ridiculed and ignored.

      I liked this interview with Alasdair Stirling and believe he is right – we really need some in yer face confrontation with WM – no more Mr Nice guy. What’s the alternative, more red, white and blue (and orange unionism) Union Flags on our iconic products (& buildings) more London luvvies on our TV, more crap history – the list is endless.

      I do not condone violence, but Ireland is right, we are a bunch of pussies. Independence for Scotland will have to be taken, not WM gift. From memory around 200,000 votes would swing it, I think we are over the mark. (Shinty polling Co.)

      Apologies for rant – I’m not a member of the SNP but it will be interesting what comes out from their Autumn Conference.

    229. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 8.35
      ERM I am afraid that Scotland did give it’s permission for Westminster to make our law’s Dr Jim.
      It happened on the 18th September 2014.
      The authenticity of the Treaty may have been in dispute because the people of Scotland hadn’t consented to it before!
      But we ratified it on that date 300 and odd year’s later right enough….but still… we ratified it.
      Let’s see how long it lasts though!

    230. Robert Peffers says:

      @Paula Rose says: 20 August, 2017 at 1:13 pm:

      “The potential wealth for an independent Scotland from oil is as nothing compared to the potential from investment in renewables.

      I’ll amend that for you, Paula Rose.

      The FUTURE of oil & gas must wane as their use is harmful and continued usage will end civilisation.

      Yet bear in mind that Scotland has always been a net exporter of food/drink, fuel and, (since electricity was harnessed), of power.

      Neither are oil & gas finite resources like all fossil fuels they not only are used up in time but the fuel and its residues need transported to & from the generators. While the fuels for renewable generated power brings itself to the generators and leaves no harmful residues to be transported and disposed of.

      By the way, nuclear power, claimed by Westminster to be a clean fuel, is demonstrably the dirtiest fuel in existence. It is not even clean at the reactor but very dirty to mine, process, reprocess and to afterwards store the still radioactive waste.

      The very first cross-border electricity grid link in the UK National Grid carried power from the old coal fired Portobello power station over the border into England just after WWII.

      Scotland has been a net exporter of electric power ever since.

      Scotland’s renewables can often exceed Scotland’s own needs at present. So in fact Scots renewables are already net exporters of power.

      Bear in mind also that with the integration of pumped hydro the system works by using cheap off-peak renewable electric power in order to pump water back uphill in order to generate power that is dearer at peak demand times.

      Being produced at peak demand times means there is an overall profit from the hydro storage. It is thus also being exported to England, Wales an, via undersea links, to Northern Ireland and especially so to the deep south of Britain where the greatest demands are made. (And then there are vast Methane Hydrate, (Fire Ice), deposits West of Shetland.

    231. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jack Murphy says: 21 August, 2017 at 3:32 pm:

      Robert Graham said at 1:13 pm today:

      “…..I just watched an interesting piece from an interview with Alasdair Stirling from the forward shop Dunoon , its posted on u/tube , it is on “the scottish manifesto” page just type that in and u/tube will find it for you .
      It gives a view of where we are ,and the limitations of what the SNP can do next , if anything without a radical change of course.”
      Thanks. Here’s the direct link:

      Interesting it may well be but the guy, (he’s very clever with it), is misleading on several points and I’d wager there is a hidden agenda. He makes some rather sweeping and not true assumptions but, like many another clever con job, there are grains of truth in his take on things.

    232. Col says:

      BBC 2 have a programme on tonight called “Dangerous Borders” about India and Pakistan. Terrible what borders do isn’t it. Cough, splutter. Although there’s one I can’t wait to be restored as soon as possible.

    233. Capella says:

      @ Graf Midgehunter – here’s the quote:
      “Deprive the people of their national consciousness; treat them as a tribe and not a nation; dilute their national pride; do not teach their history; propagate their language as inferior; imply they have a cultural void; emphasize their customs are primitive; and dismiss independence as a barbaric anomaly.”

      The Callum MacDonald book refers to Vaclav Kral’s 1961 (Prague) book “Lesson from History”. Kral was the editor. It’s a compilation of documents about the Czech occupation and Docs 21, 22 and 24 seem to be the ones CM is quoting from.
      The Kral book is in various library collections, including the British Library. But I don’t have an Athens number and am not prepared to spend £50 + to read it!

      If you can track down the Docs that woud be great but the originals are likely to be in Czech.

      Heydrich did everything in secret. When the Nazis were about to lose the war they destroyed most of the documents. But these sentiments must still be around somewhere!

      I’ve emailed Stuart McHardy, who is a historian, to see if he has a record of where the comments were made.

      thx for looking.

    234. crazycat says:

      @ Graf Midgehunter

      The (translated, by person or persons unknown) quotation that set all this off is:

      Deprive the people of their national consciousness, treat them as a tribe and not a nation, dilute their national pride, do not teach their history, propagate their language as inferior, imply they have a cultural void, emphasise their customs are primitive, and dismiss independence as a barbaric anomaly.

    235. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 21 August, 2017 at 5:39 pm:

      “@ Jack Murphy says at 3:32 pm …. ”Alasdair Stirling …. it gives a view of where we are, and the limitations of what the SNP can do next, if anything without a radical change of course.”
      I watched that too Jack but it’s another person, imo, advocating what we should do (not even really doing that) when we don’t have a majority (seemingly) supporting Independence. I also wonder why so many people are willing to take the chance that we lose by being ‘radical’ right now when we can sit back and watch the Irish border / hard Brexit situation unfold over the next 12 months or so and in doing so achieve more support.”

      You are bang on the money there, Petra. There is decidedly a co-ordinated move being made on the SNP, (both the SNP party and the SNP Scottish government.

      I’m not very sure, (yet), exactly what they are trying to achieve. Perhaps they hope to take over the broader YES movement in a sort of pincher movement with the Westminster Establishment.

      Whatever their aim I can only see it end in disaster for the independence movement as a whole. Mind you that guy is in a whole different league from such as Cat Boyd and co. For a start he is much more clever and persuasive but there are more than enough cracks in the arguments he is putting forward to raise suspicions of a form of power grab that can only ever succeed in fracturing the greater YES movement.

      Mind you I was beginning to think I was alone in spotting the several weaknesses in his arguments so was glad to read your comments in case I was getting paranoid.

    236. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers re Fire Ice. Know a guy who was working at a London Uni on a project to capture Fire Ice, they were trying to change it at a Molecular level so that it could be taken to the surface and changed back to Methane Gas. No success thus far. So it looks as if it will be a while before Fire Ice can be added to the energy mix. As you will know, it needs high pressure to convert the Methane gas to Frozen Methane gas (about 800 metres of salt waters worth! Start taking it to the surface untreated and it will just become gas !

    237. crazycat says:

      @ Capella


      I’ve e-mailed Robert Gerwarth! I have no idea how/if he will react. I met Stuart McH once, briefly, and I would expect him to be helpful as far as he can.

      I could ask my student contacts (usefully, one of them has a further contact who is Czech) whether they have Athens numbers. Is that the way forward?

    238. Jock McDonnell says:


      Of course, there is a border here already – the only debate is what powers it delineates.

      And of course, ‘India’ pre 1947 never was a single country, regardless of what the British claim.

    239. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim @ 8.35

      Public consultation is a pretty modern concept so hardly surprising there was none in 1706 but by all accounts when people did find out about it they were not best pleased and displayed their displeasure via riots etc. About the only route open to them and less than effective.

      No democratic accountability because there was nothing approaching democracy as we understand it now. We cannot project our modern concepts and structures back in time to say that the events of that time null and void because our modern structures and concepts did not exist then. The Treaty is a treaty within international law and is therefore still applicable. The words ‘in perpetuity’ figure prominently in the Treaty.

      I do not think there was a ‘dodgy bad law’ governing slavery but a wholesale moral revulsion against the whole idea of owning and enslaving another human being. There may have been the idea of slaves as property thus trying to use laws on property but the whole thing falls on ethical and moral reasons rendering any application of law highly questionable.
      I agree with you about the Henry VIII ‘law’

      Every so often Parliament goes through the legal statutes and has a clear out of old laws that are still on the statute books but have never been used for donkeys years, lots of donkeys years, or which cover things which no longer exist therefore do not need laws to regulate them. So don’t try the sword thingy if you find someone stealing your cattle – there are more up to date laws for that sort of thing now.

      I don’t think the UK gov is ‘inventing’ laws, Henry VIII excepted, but legislating as they have the right to do under the articles of the Treaty. Many of the Acts passed by the UK Parliament have a separate version of the Act, Act XXX (Scotland), which is written to take account of the separate legal and civil institutions of Scotland e.g. Education and Church and of course now, devolution.

      To be quite frank I find this constant harping back to the Treaty of Union and the minutiae of the articles and how they have been enacted or not more than a bit pointless and a result is likely to be the suffocation of independence in a sea of dotted ‘i’s and crossed ‘t’s. Try selling it on the doorsteps.

      Independence if it is anything it is about the future and the shape and form of a future, independent Scotland.

    240. Capella says:

      @ Crazycat – I think so. I found several University Libraries (quite a few in Australia for some reason) have a copy of the Vaclav Kral book, in English translation. But you can’t access these unless you are an academic institution or have an Athens number.

      If anyone has an Athens number then google Vaclav Kral “Lesson from History” 1961 Prague and you will find a number of links. it is a compilation of documents from the era.

      Of course, there is no guarantee that the quote is there in the form we recognise it! But Callum MacDonald seems to suggest that Doc 21 is the source.

      I have ordered a copy from a US bookseller – it is quite cheap – but it will take a couple of weeks to get here.

      Good luck with Robert Gerwarth. I assume a historian will have access to research libraries. So perhaps he can track it down.

    241. Fireproofjim says:

      Those who think that the SNP really want a devolved government are wrong. They are forgetting the effort and passion that everybody in the SNP put into the 2014 independence campaign. Independence is the raison d’etre for the party and that won’t change.
      I think that mistakes were made and a stronger case for things like Scottish currency and the strength of the economy were not put across well.
      Yes supporters are currently impatiently awaiting the start of a new campaign but only the SNP have the power to fire the starting pistol, because they are the only structure capable of bringing organisation and sufficient finance for inderef2.
      However I hope that, this time, Yes is led by an inspiring figure (who should be recruited now,) and that the moment for the referendum is chosen carefully, when public opinion is clearly for Yes.
      Difficult I know.

    242. Gfaetheblock says:


      Interesting article on Sputnik news, which I know has come up on here on several occasion

    243. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      I’ve e-mailed my contact about an Athens number.

      Robert Gerwarth referred to the 1942 speech and so I was hoping he’d know whether that was relevant straight away. He will have moved on to other research now, so it would, I think, be an imposition to try to make use of his research facilities vicariously. So I was careful – I hope – not to ask for too much.

    244. colin alexander says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon

      “For an expression of Scots sovereignty to be recognised by the wider international community, the result of the independence referendum would have to be 50% + 1 in favour of independence.”

      If there to be a multi-choice referendum:

      I suggested a multiple choice referendum with counting done using the STV method: the method used in Scottish Council elections.

      People would vote their preferences

      eg. 1. Independence
      2. Scottish parliament sovereign.
      3. Westminster sovereign with some devolution.

      Says 3 gets eliminated. The second choice votes of those who voted for 3 are
      re-allocated to 1 and 2 so a winner with a majority of the votes would be established.

      So the majority would be choosing one option.

      The winning number assuming 3,600,000 voted in total ( similar to the 2014 turnout) is calculated thus:

      ————— = 1,800,000 +1 = 1,800,001 votes needed to win.

      Which is the same as 50% +1 votes needed to be the winning choice.

      Happy now to have a multi-choice referendum?

    245. Petra says:

      @ Smallaxe at 9:04pm ….. “Big Ben.”

      Thanks for that article Smallaxe. It just sums up why we’re hearing that more and more Tories are showing signs of being totally scunnered with their own party and makes me even more convinced that prior to holding office they should all be subjected to IQ tests and a variety of psychological assessments starting with Big T, as this was the first thing she mentioned on returning from her holiday.

      On the otherhand maybe many see the Big Ben broken Bong during Brexit negotiations as an omen; a sign that nothing seems to work properly in England anymore. England breaking down, imploding, no longer able to tick. One can only hope that the millions of ‘normal’ English people get their act together and have a mass clear out when Scotland bids them farewell.

    246. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – worth asking I think. Of course, Callum MacDonald would be the obvious person to ask had he not unfortunately died so young.

      When I say he “seems to suggest” I mean that his system of reference is a little unhelpful. He quotes several parts of the Heydrich quote. But doesn’t use footnotes or numbers. You have to go to the Notes section where he says – the first two quotes on page 135 is from this doc. The last two are from this other document, without actually spelling out what he is referring to.

      On Kindle that is hopeless as it doesn’t use page numbers.

      Even with the book in hand it is difficult when there are more than 4 quotes on the page!

    247. Smallaxe says:



    248. Chick McGregor says:

      So Jeremy Corbyn is coming up to attack independence again.

      He should remember

      1) He only got the gig because of a fortuitously timed maiden speech by Mairi Black. (An initially unrecognized life-line for the U-cabal-of-evil).

      2) He only retains his position as long as he is seen as useful in thwarting Scottish aspirations for normal levels of self-government.

      Make no mistake.

      Retention of Scotland is and always has been Westminster’s no 1 priority, bar none.

    249. Jock McDonnell says:


      The referendum campaign is running now – Nicola said its with us.
      She can trigger the vote – but the campaign is running – she has told us to give it the momentum necessary.

    250. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      Yes, that sort of thing is very irritating. But there are many alternative styles for references; I’ve always had to be very precise, but maybe history is different, especially in works aimed at non-specialists. I don’t mean that disparagingly – I would have liked to be a historian.

      It’s funny how this has taken over. Now we’ve started, we need to find out. (I can, of course, think of someone who knows rather a lot about modern German history…)

    251. remo says:

      Re Fire ice (methane hydrate)
      I believe China and Japan have already extracted methane from fire ice and the amounts of methane hydrate make extraction an attractive proposition.

    252. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – yes it’s become a mission! But worth it I think because that quote says so much about how colonised people are oppressed. And I don’t think Heydrich invented it himself.

      I’m intrigued by who might know a lot about modern German history, apart from Angela Merkel, obviously. Do you mean Angus Robertson or the historian Christopher Harvie?

    253. cearc says:


      You’re doing a grand job there.

    254. Alex Clark says:


      Hope this isn’t too Off Topic for people but it’s like a treasure hunt and having read some of Heydrich’s stuff today there is a lot of relevance as to how a larger country will use propaganda to dominate it’s smaller neighbour in seeking overall elimination of their history and them as a people.

      For example Heydrich ordered racial profiling of all the people of Czechoslovakia starting with the children in schools. It was hidden behind Nazi propaganda as checking for and preventing tuberculosis.

      During my reading I found some snippets from the Kral book Lessons from History on Google books. I found out from there that references:

      Doc. 22 “R. Heydrich’s speech on February 4th, 1942”

      Doc. 24 “From R. Heydrich’s monthly report to the Reichskanzlie (May 18, 1942)

      Unfortunately ref 21 is just off the page and won’t scroll. Hope this is of help.

    255. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      I was referring to a certain Professor Emeritus of the subject, at Edinburgh University. Not one of our fans.

    256. Joemcg says:

      Breaking story on the herald site about wings. Praying it’s a yoon nutter.

    257. Az says:

      I’ve seen something that looks very much like a hatchet-job in the online edition of a Scottish title. I feel sick actually. This comment may get deleted, which woould be fair enough. Heads-up though, shades of Michelle Thomson methinks.

    258. Robert Louis says:

      Liz G at 850pm,

      I would seriously dispute that the vote in 2014 ratified the treaty of union, since that was not what the vote concerned, and indeed, the vow, as part of the vote, promised many more powers than Scotland has now under the treaty.

      So, if anything, the vote result did not ratify the treaty of 1707, but did ratify the supposedly ‘guaranteed’ extra powers, ‘as close to federalism as possible’, and so on. None of these were delivered.

      In my mind that should be grounds enough to call another referendum.

    259. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – I think one Professor Emeritus at Edinburgh has, in fact, come round to our way of thinking. Could be wrong. Shall I email?

      @ Alex Clark – it gets more relevant the more you delve into it. The big picture is that colonialists are ruthless. But we have to confirm that Heydrich did actually say these things and not some civil servant sitting in Whitehall cribbing form the big Westminster handbook of how to rule a colony.

    260. Petra says:

      @ Smallaxe at 10:00pm …. TICK TOCK right enough Smallaxe. Time’s running out for them ?


      @ Robert at 9:18pm ……. “Paranoid.”

      No Robert you’re far from it. It’s clear, by following your posts, that you can see right through the whole kit and caboodle (as can some others on here). And when we add that insight to your extensive knowledge in relation to a number of subjects we can see why you’re often a key target for some who want to destroy your credibility. From those who want to destroy the Independence movement. Those who don’t want Scotland to be Independent at all.

    261. Az says:

      “I won’t be commenting on it beyond this: it’s some Tweets. Nothing else. All publicly visible”

      So there yese go. Uft, f*ck the Herald’s angles sing.

    262. Breeks says:

      @ Robert Peffers 9:18

      “… There is decidedly a co-ordinated move being made on the SNP, (both the SNP party and the SNP Scottish government…”

      Is there?

      There’s Unionism of course, so yes there is indeed a campaign against the SNP. But amongst ourselves, I honestly believe the SNP is badly misjudging the frustration people, and I mean good people, solid Indy supporters, are actually feeling about the SNP’s insipid and colourless “campaign”. A curious campaign which cannot even begin until Brexit has made us all appropriately sad and angry, but will somehow deliver us from evil and BBC propaganda, and do it all from a standing start, in a very brief period of weeks… Hmmm… Some of us Believers find that a tad err,. .. Optimistic.

      The criticism isn’t seeking to damage the SNP, but to urge them to take more initiative and be more assertive about the defence of Scotland’s constitutional heritage. What is actually wrong in defending Scotland’s 2016 Remain vote as a sovereign decision that is just as resolute and emphatic as the 2014 No vote? Have you considered what we are inadvertently saying if or when we don’t do that? Some votes are more sovereign than others??? Or that Scottish sovereignty only counts if Westminster gives it the nod??? Stand up for our constitutional rights and let Westminster do all the head scratching!

      We are the sovereign people of Scotland. If anybody wants to rubbish that principle, and sell us all out through Westminster’s idea of democracy and supporting propaganda monopoly, then why not give Westminster the job of discrediting Scotland’s unique constitutional strengths rather than doing their job for them? These constitutional strengths are the tools which can give us victory for God’s sake!!! Yet here we are throwing them away!

      Democracy is not superior to sovereignty. People who say “Oh! But we have no majority!” are simply not understanding the constitutional principles of sovereignty, and that nievity is getting increasingly frustrating for those of us who properly do.

      If you’re fed up hearing the word sovereignty in a campaign for a Nation’s independence, then you are just not with the program.

    263. James Anderson says:

      Just read the same story. Explains Stu’s partial Twitter withdrawal. Hoping it is one of the demented London-based hacks who’ve had difficulty losing every ‘debate’ they’ve entered with this site over the last couple of years?!

    264. Capella says:

      @ cearc – 🙂

    265. Alex Clark says:

      Let’s not speculate over the story in the Herald regarding the Rev being arrested on Friday over some allegations of harassment.

      We can all read the Herald article online or tomorrow in the paper but as the Rev says he won’t be making any further comment and I don’t think we on Wings should comment or speculate either.

      It’s a legal matter now and will have to run it’s course. NEXT!

    266. Chick McGregor says:

      Hope so.

      Cannae be Kezia in South London anyway.

    267. Nation Libre says:

      Now is the time to stand up and be counted. I’m surprised it’s taken this long for the establishment to pull this shit. We have to nail these people, in the courts. Crowd funder must be started now.

    268. Fireproofjim says:

      This smear on Stu is only to be expected. I’m surprised it took so long.
      Don’t know who it is, but as he is by far the most effective pro-Independence blogger it will be enthusiastically exploited by all the media (and Slab off course).
      Look out for a stream of innuendo and lies. The establishment would like nothing better than to shut us down.
      I say US. Je suis Stu.

    269. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      I think one Professor Emeritus at Edinburgh has, in fact, come round to our way of thinking.

      Not the one I’m thinking about! She will never, ever convert.

    270. Robert Peffers says:

      Cactus says: 21 August, 2017 at 6:58 pm:

      ” … Which made me think of some more, now obvious questions…”

      Oh! Dear! Now those questions may be obvious questions that you want answers to but in all honesty you are around 311 years too late in asking them and your history teacher should have informed you of at least the basics of the matter at school.

      “(1) Who has this original “Act of Union” document / contract?

      As is usual it is a good idea to actually start at the beginning of such things.

      Are you sitting comfortably?

      Then I’ll begin:

      In the first place there is no single act of union for the very good reason there wasn’t a single unified parliament to pass a unified Act of Parliament.

      There were two independent kingdoms and they each therefore had to pass their own independent act of their own parliament.

      “(2) Where is it kept / preserved?”

      The old Scottish Parliament’s Act of Union is held in the vaults of the National Library of Scotland. I believe it was recently briefly put on view by the Library for public viewing but being over 300 years old cannot be kept out for long.

      Where England keeps their act I have neither any idea nor inclination to find out.

      To explain things for you I must first make the matter clearer for you.

      There is a joint Scottish, English, “Treaty of Union”, and let us be quite clear that these were two equally independent and equally sovereign KINGDOMS – NOT COUNTRIES.

      With the Monarch of England being the same person as the Monarch of Scots. The difference of titles is because that monarch was/is sovereign in England but the people were/are sovereign in Scotland.

      So first the two kingdoms parliamentarians agreed to a Treaty of Union then both went home to pass their own respective ACTS OF PARLIAMENT.

      ” (3) Was it signed and dated by persons from both kingdoms?”

      NO. As stated there were two independent parliaments and thus two independent ACTS of Parliament. The Treaty has both Kingdom’s representatives signatures.

      “(4) Why have we never seen it before?”

      “We”, have and I do not know why you have not seen it. I did, though once show a copy of the Scottish Act of Union right here on Wings.

      I will not do so again but will quote you a cite to a source of the actual text of the treaty and the acts along with some other very important documents. Please bear in mind the website belongs to a quite biased English chap. So pay little heed to his views as they are his own but he does publish the texts of the documents correctly.

      “I want to see it for real in the flesh… don’t YOU?”

      I have seen the Scottish version but it is only rarely brought out of the vault. I give above a cite to the actual text of the treaty and both acts. In fact both acts are almost identical textually to the wording of the Treaty.

      As to the whole damned thing it was, without doubt, a stitch-up and I’ve given the lurid details quite often here on Wings.

      It is a sordid story spanning hundreds of years but the immediate details are thus:-

      The London Scot who instigated the subscription fund to bail out the Parliament of England that had massive national debts was one named William Patterson and that fund led to the birth of the Bank of England. Which did not actually belong to the Kingdom of England but was a private company until 1946 when Westminster Nationalised it. It was only called the Bank of England because the English Kingdom banked with it.

      This was the same William Paterson who was later in Edinburgh setting up the disastrous Darien Expedition that bankrupted, (Not Scotland ), but only the rich landowners who were also the Scottish parliamentarians. Patterson was actually an undercover agent under the pay of Sir Robert Harley an English MP and the English Spy Master.

      As also was the English Author Daniel Defoe who was also in Edinburgh and who was sending letters back to Harley in Westminster – these letters still exist. Defoe had the ear of the Scottish Land Owners/Parliamentarians. The whole thing was a stitch-up.

      It also involved the English Parliament’s English Navigational Acts that were the reason England had been at war throughout Europe and these also had a hand in the American War of Independence. It was why England had needed bailed out by Paterson’s subscription scheme.

      Then there was the actual bribery of Scottish parliamentarians, blackmail of others and an English fleet lying off the Firth of Forth and English troops massed at the Scottish English borders.

      Now do you understand why you were not taught your Scottish History at School?

      Not even the story of Bruce and the spider is authentic and it did not appear until long after Bruce was dead,

      Like the invention, or rather the version claimed of Highland Dress and traditions by Sir Walter Scott it is an engineered myth.

      How many Scots, I wonder, know their true history? Believe me the true version is much, much more stirring than the ersatz version.

      For example you really, really need to know the true version of How Sir William Wallace was executed and believe me, “Hung, Drawn and Quartered”, is a very mild version of what that term actually involved.

    271. Joemcg says:

      Not speculating on her identity BUT we all know who is the favourite.

    272. Fireproofjim says:

      Crowd fund – yes, whenever needed.
      Now sommes Stu.

    273. Petra says:

      I see that the greatest threat to the break up of the Union has been targeted now. I’m not one bit surprised, only surprised that he wasn’t targeted sooner.


      Sovereignty… There’s loads of data online relating to Scottish Sovereignty as outlined by experts on the subject, so I doubt that many on here are naive as we’ve had access to it over a number of years now. I for one will focus on the constitutional expert’s data.

    274. Fireproofjim says:

      Should say -“nous sommes Stu”

    275. The Proctor Lewis says:

      If the worst that can happen is you are arrested then be thankful, Stuart I worry when you post your location around Bath, you obviously don’t know the hatred you generated in some spheres. Be thankful they are trying to intimidate you legally, the other method is rather more unpleasant.

    276. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Female from London – possibly a journalist from a right wing paper if they have crossed swords with Rev Stu in the last couple of years.

      A wonder who that could be?

      Also very convenient timing with the Kez case coming up as well…

      It is should be very interesting.

      If you need any crowd funding – we are always here.

    277. Graf Midgehunter says:


      Thx for the info.

      I’ve tried with various translations/part elements from the original qoute but still no luck with any, just any clue as to the original text in German and where or when Heydrich said it. It’s as if it’s a secret or banned…!

      Germany doesn’t play around when it come to certain N**I ideology stuff and you can get into trouble quite quickly if you’re daft enough.

      I’ve got another couple of trails to follow so here’s hoping…

    278. Capella says:

      @ Graf Midgehunter – good luck!
      @ crazycat – oh – that one – not very emeritus IMO.

    279. Smallaxe says:

      My good friend The Proctor Lewis, is correct in what he says, very correct!

    280. TJenny says:

      All – Stu’s put a wee post up re the Herald innuendo.

    281. Alex Clark says:

      @Graf Midgehunter

      If your up for the hunt, crazycat at 11:23 this morning mentioned Robert Gerwarth’s historical biograhy of Heydreich “Hitler’s Hangman”

      The references are very extensive and you can download a copy of the references only here:

      Open the pdf and search for the significant dates of the speeches to find specific references to them of which there are many throughout the book.

      Heydrich’s speech in Prague Castle, 4 February 1942 might be the most significant but also Heydrich’s speech in ?ernín Palace on 2 October 1941.

      Plenty of references there too German literature about these speeches. The hunt goes on.

    282. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Alex Clark 10.25pm

      I’ve been through all those German speeches and reports that I could get hold of and can’t find any references to the English qoute.

    283. Stephen McKenzie says:

      Tom Gordon – Journalist – really!

      Sue me you little fart of a man, your hatred of someone who can actually be a journalist rather than a paid stooge is too obvious by half.

      Tom get a life, get a Church Magazine it’s just your level.

    284. crazycat says:

      @ Graf Midgehunter

      In Eradicating Differences: The Treatment of Minorities in Nazi-Dominated Europe by Anton Weiss Wendt, I’ve found this footnote:

      Aus Heydrichs Ansprache an die leitenden Functionare der Okkupationsbehorden, in der es das Ergebnis seiner bisherigen Politik im Protektorat erortert und sein Endziel – die Liquidation des tschechischen Volkes – darlegt, February 4, 1942, reproduced in Karny et al, Deutsche Politik im “Protektorat Bohmen und Mahren,” pp 228-229

      (no umlauts or other diacritics, sorry)

      I’ve lost track – has this already been mentioned?

    285. Alex Clark says:

      @Graf Midgehunter

      Have you read the German version of both of those speeches then?

      If so and you found nothing that translated to the English as quoted then I can only assume that the English quotation is unlikely to be something he really said, though it may have been an amalgamation of things that he had said from various speeches.

    286. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Alex Clark


      See my post at 8.32pm – I’ve been through the mentioned speeches in the original (I’m fluent in German).

      I’ll see what I can find with the Gerwarth notes – it’s only 57 pages and a few hundred notes to check… 🙂 🙂

      As usual a lot of the stuff repeats itself and centres on him getting the chop and the huge funeral aferwards.

    287. Capella says:

      @ Alex Clark – that is an extensive list of notes. The chapter 8 notes are probably the relevant ones but there are 269!
      Doc 21 of the Lesson From History book is called “The Germanisation of the Moravian Area.” The quote may have been in a speech or instructions about how to run the new Orwellian Ministry for Enlightenment.

      Will return to the search manyana. Off up the little wooden hill to Bedfordshire.

    288. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ crazycat 12.14am

      See my post at 8.32pm.

      4 Feb. 1942 been done… 🙂

    289. crazycat says:

      @ Alex

      it may have been an amalgamation of things that he had said from various speeches

      That’s what it looks like to me; I had a look at the googlebooks version of Kral that you linked to, and searched for several different phrases, all of which came back as “no matches found”.

      The one that did return a couple of matches, however, was the single word “independence” – but none of the sentences in which it occurred appears in our original “quote”.

      So given that Kral contains the elusive Doc 21, that can’t include our text verbatim. It may not even contain any of the end product in recognizable form. (Or the search function is rubbish.)

      But someone has assembled those disparate bits, to form a plausible whole.

      The thot plickens (sic).

    290. Alex Clark says:


      I agree chapter 8 notes are whre I’d be looking.

      @Graf Midgehunter

      Sorry, i did read your post at 8:32 but failed to absorb that you had read both speeches already.


      After what I’ve read of that man nothing he said would surprise me. Despicable man and hard to believe that it was all so recent in relative terms. I’d never really read anything about the Nazis before. I’m typing this while shaking my head.

      Just shows you how soon we can forget or how history can be ignored.

    291. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says: 21 August, 2017 at 7:55 pm:

      “Jack Murphy at 3.32
      Just to be clear Alastair Stirling has no position in the Forward Shop at Dunoon and does not express in any way the considered opinions of the members of YES Cowal.”

      I’m bloody glad to hear that, DMH.

      It didn’t take me long to spot the flaws in the guy’s arguments.

      It must surely be becoming clear to Wingers that there is a co-ordinated and orchestrated move being made by a faction supposedly part of the bigger YES movement.

      What they hope to gain from it most certainly is not good for the independence movement. If you fondly imagine that Colin A. and Co. all suddenly just happened to appear at around the same time they you are deluding yourselves.

      I’ve been warning about this move of people claiming to be indy supporters but who always seemed to manage to be critical of the SNP government if not the overall party in every post they made.

      Do a wee back track and see just how many times you find, “The SNP should be doing/saying/writing/posting or whatever you can find.

      Everyone of those comments, whether deliberately meant to undermine the SNP or having been auto-suggested to those suggestable to idle gossip that really has no basis in fact seems very like a co-ordinated attempt that as far as I can see is stemming from the lefties of ex-Labour or such as Cat Boyd and Co. with some crazy idea that they can make gains at the expense of the SNP as they do not seem to be making any headway within a Labour party that has moved decidedly even more rightwards.

      The do seem to be getting people to bite but they haven’t a hope in hell of ever gaining a reasonable foothold in either the Labour Party or the SNP but could very well sink all hope of Scottish independence for the foreseeable future.

      These guys, or their forerunners, were once the plotters and inhabitants of tobacco smoke-filled pub backrooms and the ex-commies who once tried to take over Labour.

      Whoever they are they have recently been stirring up unrest among some indy supporters.

    292. Breeks says:

      When the SNP refuses to take the initiative, then precisely what right have they to condemn others who do?

      After 70 years of Independence campaigning the only show in town is Brexit??? And even the impending disaster of Brexit scarcely raises any constitutional haymakers, we have to suffer the actual disaster first???

      And lets say your worst fears are correct, that it isn’t simply paranoia to believe the SNP is under some cloak and dagger conspiracy from within, then given the evidence of an SNP government which won’t stand firm on sovereignty or our EU citizenship, refuses to test the faux concept of Westminster’s parliamentary sovereignty, but simply retreats to its castle of prudent administration and raises the drawbridge, you have to wonder whether the SNP has had its teeth, claws, and stomach for a fight removed already.

      I do appreciate that an electoral majority for Independence is important, but it isn’t the only means to an end. It is not worth one constitutional concession after another, which only serves to undermine Scotland’s sovereignty and add precedent to the argument that Westminster’s sovereignty is its superior.

      We MUST defend our sovereign integrity whether there is a majority for Independence or against it. It is an absolute condition, and far more ancient, precious and powerful than a fleeting infatuation with democracy.

      If we don’t defend our sovereignty, it hurts Scotland and our sovereign aspirations. Defend our sovereignty and it hurts Westminster and curtails their sovereign aspirations.

    293. David Macgille-Mhuire says:

      With due respect, you are sounding like an agent provocateur – no doubt unintentionally; and, in principle, agreed.

      But ca’ canny lest your posited honesty hoists you by an unexpected petard unexpectedly with “unexpected” results regarding others in the peaceful, mass movement apropos Scottish re-independence.

      Gandhi and Mandela would have been intrigued – I suggest – by our collective, non-chauvinist national,all-comer, bugger all matters come all ye ALL Scots citizens re-sovereignty movement.

      Joe Slovo, stunned at the sheer democratic cheek of our imperfect democratic uprising.

      However, a wheen of stuff being recently posted here seems intent on undermining this imperfect, mass democratic, peaceful attempt at repatriated democracy prior to our final fcuk you, Britannia, but thank you for the learning experience.

      A provoking of folk going on by unsubtle, wee clypes and pochlers sooking up to their gamesmasters – a few wee useful eejits.

      Game plan?

      There have aye been on this thread, and other sites, posters seeking to contrive an AngloBritNat physical force solution via their agent provocateur comments in order to send in their Brit master psycho companies to fcuk the perceived aboriginal insurgents daft enough to listen to their siren wheeshing, agitating whisphers in the lug deceitful composed?

      Your thoughts, Breeks?

      Send young lads and lasses in to face British military destruction of their lives (the disputed Connolly Option whereby he advised against that immediate action as it was less than ultimately helpful and would spark off a “circus in the North” as it did and still does).

      We have to ca’ very canny.

      Thank you as always for your thoughts.

    294. Cactus says:

      Aweright Robert Peffers ~

      Aye, putting some questions out there furra bit of stimulation was I.

      Was hoping to generate some discussion around the matter and fully expected some clarification frae yerself too. SO cheers tae yerself and Legerwood for yer wise words of wisdom, fellow Scots 😉

      And now, onto the next topic / article… “The fine art of omission”

      Hmmm, I wonder what that’s awe about?

      Mibbies an abstract oil painting.

    295. Bluered55 says:

      Norway produced similar quantities of oil over the year as the uk,they reported a healthy profit and yet the uk government tries to tell us we’re losing money,everything in Norway costs more than double here in the uk,yet they were also only getting $50 a barrel,how could we possibly be losing money.

    296. Hamish100 says:

      Since the 70’s Scotland has never had ANY money from oil so the idea we are in stook is a load of keech.

      All the profits all went to the English government in order they could have illegal wars, fund nuclear bombs pay off the bankers.

      They need us not only for oil but for gas, renewable energy, agriculture and fishing ( how quiet has the Ulster fishing leader been recently) new technology, tourism our universities and higher education system. Yip they need us bad.

    297. Alex Clark says:

      @David Macgille-Mhuire

      Good post.

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