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The staunch defenders

Posted on November 19, 2018 by

If we were to write an article every time Murdo Fraser said something moronic, we’d have to rename this site Wings Over Murdo Fraser, and drink an awful lot of Red Bull to be able to cover it all.

Stuff like this, for example, is almost too easy.

43% (actually 45.3% excluding Don’t Knows) is considerably more than Murdo Fraser has ever achieved in an election, either himself or as part of a party. His average over the seven elections he’s contested and lost since 1999 is just 30.1%, and until a blip in 2016 it had been falling lower and lower each time, as people have watched how he performed as an MSP and got less and less keen on the idea.

That’s still actually slightly more than the 28.6% his party secured in Scotland at the last election, though, in what was nevertheless generally regarded as an unusually impressive performance. Two years earlier they gathered just 14.9% of the votes cast.

Yet neither Fraser nor the Tories disappear for a generation every time Scotland tells them to go and get stuffed. Fraser keeps trousering an MSP’s fat salary despite two decades of unbroken and unequivocal personal rejection from the electorate, even as he demands that the independence movement gives up after losing ONE vote.

But in his defence, his leader’s not setting him much of an example.

No, not Ruth Davidson, his ACTUAL leader.

Again, it’s almost too easy to mock the witless hypocrisy of the Prime Minister’s warm words to little Latvia, a country with well under half the population of Scotland and less than half the per-capita GDP, yet which still thrives as an independent nation.

(Even if, unlike their fellow Baltic states Lithuania and Estonia, they haven’t managed to humiliate us at football yet.)

But it’s only when you examine the tweet a little more closely that you realise what a piece of condescending, ignorant and innumerate drivel it is.

Latvia unilaterally declared its independence from Russia in 1918, triggering a two-year civil war before a democratic government was installed in 1920. It survived for less than 20 years before the Soviet Union effectively annexed the country in 1939 and a puppet government brought Latvia back into the USSR.

Two years later it was invaded and occupied by the Nazis, and by the end of the war was firmly back under Soviet rule, where it remained (having eventually been granted a small measure of devolution by Mikhail Gorbachev’s reformist government) until a referendum in 1991 regained its independence.

So Latvia’s supposed “100 years of independence” have in fact comprised 52 years of brutal authoritarian Soviet/Nazi rule, two years of civil war and just 46 years of actual independence. To be honest, it could probably have done without the UK’s “protection” altogether for all the use it was.

We’re not sure if Theresa May’s ignorance of history, arithmetic or democracy is the worst. But it’s nice to know the PM still wants to be friends with small countries that take control of their own affairs. We’re sure she’ll feel the same about Scotland when it frees itself from another large neighbour that won’t let it decide its own future.

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  1. 19 11 18 13:56

    The staunch defenders | speymouth

280 to “The staunch defenders”

  1. Proud Cybernat says:

    Thurrs been a Murdo.

  2. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Another fine example – if needed amidst this Brexit pantomime – of Britnat insularity. Well-worth pointing out, Rev.

  3. winifred mccartney says:

    Murdo Fraser is the epitome of an arrogant self serving tory – allowed in through the back door and now thinks he owns the place.

    The complete ignorance of the UK, WM politicians is breath-taking – think Raab and the port of Calais, think Karen Bradley NI and her surprise at sectarian voting, think TM and her complete lack of irony in the above tweet and complete lack of knowledge and history – and heaven help us we are depending on these ignorant people to show us the way – the only place they are going is Armageddon.

  4. Dr Jim says:

    I still don’t believe we should be watching for support going up for Independence, more to the point opposition to Independence is going down because many will not switch from NO to YES they just won’t vote NO next time because they’re ready to accept the inevitable

    A bit like we keep having to accept Murdo Fraser because some people will always be like him, but thankfully less of them

  5. Ian Brotherhood says:

    What makes May’s message even worse is that there’s no way she would’ve written that. She probably hasn’t even clapped eyes on it. The work of an underling who will get his/her wrist slapped for sloppiness.

    Ye just canny get the staff these days…

  6. robertknight says:

    Whilst appreciating that it’s cruel to mock the afflicted, with Murdo you simply can’t help but point and laugh.

  7. Ghillie says:

    Simply put, Teresa May has not got a fucking clue.

    And wee Murdo does not even reach those heady heights.

  8. starlaw says:

    Murdo Fraser is absolutely correct ( well Ive always been told to humour the afflicted in the hope that they will go away and bother someone else) But I will make an exception for this unwanted eejit. SNP are the elected government of Scotland … who elected you, how many times have you been rejected but your too thick or brass necked to take the hint. SNP are a force for good in Scotland Murdo Fraser is a big round O.

  9. Luigi says:

    List MSPs should be limited to two runs and then they should be forced to step down and let someone else represent their party (if “elected”). It’s far too cosy an arrangement. Constituency MSPs are different – they are there by direct, popular vote and so should be able to remain for as long as the electorate wants them.

    The idea that someone as useless as MD should be allowed to continue for decades as a “Career Lister” is disgusting.

  10. Grant says:

    The Earth is 29% land, considerably less than 43%, ergo there is ‘absolutely no’ land on Earth.

  11. Jim Watson says:

    Perhaps what is more concerning regarding the current batch of Scottish Conservatives is that Murdo is not the worst…

    I want Indyref II ergo his claim that absolutely no one supports it is, at best, slightly disingenuous, at worst an outright lie. I must have told him a million times not to exaggerate!

  12. David Mooney says:

    Luigi at 12.56 pm.

    Frankly I would limit them to one term. If they were any good as MSPs the electorate would vote for them in the next election, otherwise they should be out for a minimum of two terms before they would be allowed to return.

    Maybe it would motivate them to work for their salary.

  13. jfngw says:

    It’s a simple rule, you cannot stand on the list system if you are already a MSP. This limits them to sitting once on the list, they must then win a constituency seat to continue as a MSP.

    Unlikely to gain any support from MSP’s though, some make a whole career out of being a list MSP. It seems to be one of the few guaranteed jobs, there is practically no way for some of them to be removed by the electorate, it’s almost as bad as the Lords in that respect.

  14. galamcennalath says:

    In the General Election last year May and her cabal received 42.4% of the vote. By Murdo’s standards, no one voted Tory and she lost totally. Aye.

    Mind you, 42.4% is actually quite high by WM standards where the last person to actually win an election with a majority of votes was Stanley Baldwin!

    It’s all democracy, UK style. And we want shot of it!

  15. galamcennalath says:

    I’m not anti list. It’s how most of the world’s democracies choose, I believe.

    What I am anti is really crap incompetent politicians! So what is it about the UK/Scotland that allows plonkers to get elected?

    Shite media, IMO, who don’t shine the spotlights where they need to be shone. They see their role as being protecting tame establishment politicians.

  16. Macart says:

    Four years of blanket ‘Scotland is shite’ from both pro Westminster parties and their media. That’s quite a lot of political will and wellie by the by. Four years and they haven’t dented a vote that hasn’t even begun to campaign yet.

    If I were Mr Fraser, I’d be worried. I’d be very, VERY, worried.

    Tick tock Mr Fraser. Yer time’s nearly up.

  17. McBoxheid says:

    List MSP’s don’t get elected, they are selected by their party. It was designed to keep the british in power in Scotland. Hasn’t worked that way though. It is still undemocratic. All the unionist parties are run from England, regardless of what they say. Anyone else think its wrong that England has so much say in our DEVOLVED parliament?

    Just another way to make sure we stay in line.

  18. The blue Tories like Murdo Fraser will never give up Talking Scotland down at every opportunity in order to save their precious union.

    As for the red Tories here in Scotland, the brexiteer Richard Leonard has stated in Scotland on Sunday: “The turmoil of coming out of an economic relationship which has been in place for 40 years would be nothing compared with the economic turmoil of coming out of a relationship which has lasted 300 years.

    “Given the extent to which we are in a highly integrated level of monetary, economic, social and political union with the rest of the UK, I think the challenges would be huge.”

    So we should just shut up and continue to allow our country and its people to be impoverished by the policies of Westminster governments.

    I don’t think so!

  19. Marco McGinty says:

    Is the internet big enough to handle Murdo’s extensive catalogue of stupidity?

  20. McBoxheid says:

    galamcennalath says:
    19 November, 2018 at 1:30 pm

    I’m not anti list. It’s how most of the world’s democracies choose, I believe.
    Designed to keep the big parties in power.

    Look at the USA, Germany etc They have a two party system or effectively a two party system. There is always or nearly always a coalition with at least one of the two main parties. Also, you cannot be a list member of parliament on an independent ticket. FPTP has its flaws, but at least they have been elected by the people they represent and not just selected by their party.

  21. jfngw says:

    Great thread on iScot twitter. It’s reports from various sources on how unviable independence was for the colonies. So far they have Singapore, Malta & the USA. I’m sure if they can get access to more historical records they will find the same story being fed to every one of the ex-colonies.

    They are now feeding the same stuff about Scotland, the only difference I can see are the majority of the ‘Scotland is incapable’ bunch are actually Scottish.

    Looks like great material for a Yes campaign if we can build a story, the claims, the facts.

  22. Ghillie says:

    Aye, absolutely correct Macart @ 1.33 pm

    Support for Independence holds strong =)

    Anecdotally, support for remaining a colony of the British empire seems to be dwindling.

    And we haven’t even started yet 🙂

    No wonder Murdo’s having a wee panic.

  23. Luigi says:

    Aye, the BritNat desperadoes and their media chums have been crying wolf for nigh on four years now. The tank is empty. Diminishing returns and all that. The phoney war is just ending and they have nothing left to say. Four years, when they threw everything (including the kitchen sink), and they didn’t even manage to dent the YES vote.

    Wait until the real battle begins. I have a feeling that they don’t know what is about to hit them. I may be wrong, but I think with all this business about continuity bills, article 50 challenges, the BritNats may have quietly been set up for a rather spectacular fall. Hope so – time will tel. 🙂

  24. tarisgal says:

    First you have to believe the poll company is polling & handling the data properly…

  25. Cubby says:

    There should be a law in Scots law that says only completely independent Scottish political parties can be elected to the Scottish parliament. Any funding or control by non Scottish entities/people should be a crime with severe penalties.

    What other Parliament lets political parties funded and controlled by foreign countries stand for election.

    It is not devolution when you have all these London place men/woman sitting in the parliament.

    Faux democracy rules the roost in Scotland.

  26. Ken500 says:

    150Million people have realised self governance since the 1990’s from the USSR aided by Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Putin and the EU. Most are doing extremely well.

    Westminster tries to holds on to Scotland with an iron grip. Has lied to Scotland since 1928 and before. Illegally and secretly taken Scottish resources. Stagnated the Scottish economy. Unionists Parties paid from London HQ’s try to ruin the Scottish economy.

    The US/UK has illegally blown countries to bits. Caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Is illegally sanctionig and starving people. One of the highest wealth, inequality gap and the biggest debt. Yet Westminster imbeciles criticise the EU and Russia.

    May and her associates are lying, greedy psycho bastards. They are not fit to govern. Brexit is a disaster, especially for Scotland.

  27. Petra says:

    @ tarisgal says at 2:25 pm …. ”First you have to believe the poll company is polling & handling the data properly… ”

    Good find Tarisgal ….

    ”You might want to consider doing some research before sharing another poll from Britain Elects.”

  28. Merkin Scot says:

    Prickly writing that hits the spot exactly.
    Currently, there are very few who say it as cogently.

  29. Dr Jim says:

    Nicola Sturgeon to blame for a no deal Brexit claims Mundell

    No deal a catastrophe for Scotland says Mundell and it’ll be because Nicola Sturgeon won’t do as she’s told because all she wants is a catastrophe so she can try for another Independence referendum that nobody wants, he adds

    Do we think folk are going to fall for Mundell’s threats and implications of his own Tories bad decisions plus the exclusion of Scotland’s FM and government for the last two years to now switch the blame to Scotland when it all goes horribly wrong exactly as Scotland’s FM predicted it would in the first place

    Scotland’s Joan of Arc must be burned at the stake as a witch for knowing how the Tories were going to behave seems to be the reasoning of Mundell

  30. Dan Huil says:

    Absolutely no brains in Turdo Fraser.

  31. Cubby says:

    In theory if you get an MSP selected at a young age like Ross Greer they could be sitting in the Scottish parliament for 50 years. I believe there are some MSPs who have been sitting on the list since the parliament opened.

    If the Scottish parliament is to be based on proportional representation then it needs changes. However, it will never happen under the auspices of the objective (Scotland in Union member) ha ha – presiding officer who came in third in his constituency for Labour but popped in on the list and then became presiding officer. Rejected by his voters and then rewarded for failure. Not a good look for democracy.

    It’s easy to see how it was designed by Labour – the masters of jobs for the boys.

  32. manandboy says:

    Good one, Stu.

    The career politician is a legacy of the Thatcher years, before which, politicians lost their seats, their jobs and their easy salary and expenses willy nilly. Then came neo-liberalism and a whole new way of looking at things.

    Politicians as public servants became politicians as self-servants, and then the servants of business, and the bigger the better. Because big business will pay a lot for Government contracts.

    It wasn’t too long before everyone in politics, or going into politics, got the message – politics has become a business career. But not too fast, lest the voters catch on, so we’ll keep on telling them and reassuring them that we are their representatives – while in fact, we’ll be representing those companies with which we have ‘an arrangement’.
    And how to get re-elected over and over? The politicians enlisted the help of their business associates, most of whom were experienced in advertising, to ‘upgrade’ the election campaigning model, so as to keep pace with a fast moving modern society. Remember Sir Lynton Crosbie? Australian election whiz kid employed by the Tories a few years back, and knighted for his services to the Tory Party? Then you’ve got the picture.
    So the whole business of politics has been transformed by business, and in particular by PR companies, marketing companies, data and media companies and so on. It is no longer about the voter and his MP. Those days are gone for the most part.
    As for Murdo Fraser, he is certainly a beneficiary of this era of the manipulation of politics by business for business. In his case, he benefits because business needs stability, reliability and longevity; the same politician in the same place year after year. Not being silly by representing the voters, but by representing business. And he doesn’t need to be bright, quite the opposite. If he was bright he might get ideas, and companies don’t want that – they have the ideas already.
    Murdo’s perfect for the politician business.

  33. Ken500 says:

    The unionists changed the electoral system in Scotland without a mandate. To let the 3rd rate rejects in. The voters cant’s get rid of people who they can’t stand the sight. Ist preference SNP votes disgarded, to let the 3rd rare rejects in. There is a quota. It was done to try and prevebt the SNP getting a majority. The unionist gang up together to ruin the economy.

    The unionists gang together to ruin the local economy. Break electoral Law at every opportunity. Illegal funding. Changing to declare as Independent, as soon as they get elected. In order to support the unionist cabel. Independents labelled as Unionist Alliance Party on Council websites. This Party does not exist. A complete fabrication. No registration under electoral rules, no accounts or funding declared. Totally against the Representation of the People’s Act. Gerrymandering and breaking the Law. Just getting away with it.

    Unionists politicians illegally telling their supporters to vote for another party. Illegal duplicity. They have no shame. Apart from the fact they deny their own Party a majority. Unbelievable. Illegally defaming people. Aided by unionist Press going down the tubes. Defrauding investors. What a state to be in.

  34. About Mudo and the other list msps., is there not an old saying about empty vessels make the most sound ???

  35. Luigi says:

    I don’t know about the Scottish people not wanting another referendum, Murdo.

    However, one thing is clear, the Scottish people have never, ever wanted YOU to represent them.

  36. Ken500 says:

    Mundell the consummate liar. Champagne and canapies at the Scottish Office. Wasted public money increased in expenses. The Tories are sanctionig and starving people. How can people vote for that lying hypocrite? Lies, after lies, after lies. It is a mystery.

  37. Ken500 says:

    Murdo supported a separate Tory Party. Or something? Davidson did not. Arch manipulators.

  38. Dr Jim says:

    New Panelbase poll asks the Independence question and I won’t even dignify it by posting the results, suffice it to say they surveyed 1050 people in Scotland and 966 in England and Wales

    Wot!? no people in Uganda or Chicamagwa were asked??? surely those folk must be consulted on important decisions like this for Scotland’s future

  39. Bob Mack says:

    No appetite ? I’m starving for it. It will come to the table sooner than later.

  40. Petra says:


    Dearie me.

    ‘Spain threatens to reject Theresa May’s Brexit deal over Gibraltar.’


    Dearie, dearie me.

    ‘Irish PM Leo Varadkar says no to any further negotiations over Brexit withdrawal agreement.’


    Rock? I’ve heard that name before. No wonder her head is wasted!

    Beans? The woman is full of hot air, right enough.

    ‘Theresa May says husband Philip is her ‘rock’ after tough Brexit week.’

    ..”On Thursday, he served up beans on toast for tea,” she said in an interview with the Daily Mail. “I opened the tin. He made the toast – and did the washing up.”……


    Another £300,000 down the drain.

    ‘Boris Johnson’s unusable water cannon sold for scrap at £300,000 loss to taxpayer’

    …”Mr Johnson bought the machines from Germany in 2014, before their use had been licensed on the UK mainland.”..

  41. I take it that all the young Blue Tory hopefuls, and those who voted Blue Tory are happy that Ruth Davidson gave this odious little man yet another Golden Ticket on the Holyrood Gravy Train.
    Eight times rejected by the electorate over the years yet the Blue Tory machine tells the electorate to FUCK OFF, he’s our malleable little grunt, so he gets to sit at the Big Table and tweet once in a while for £1200 a week plus exex plus a juicy benefits described pension at the end of it all.
    Come the revolution, guys.
    What a corrupt little electoral system the Brit Nats saddled us with.

  42. Confused says:

    Iain Crichton Smith wrote a book called

    Thoughts of Murdo

    – it was the ramblings of a dingbat, comedic satire if I remember rightly.

    We seem to be living in a strange psychic nexus where mind, fantasy, culture and the real world crossover. Perhaps Jung’s collective unconsciousness does exist after all, not mere metaphor.

    I am awa to meditate on the enemy and think evil thoughts towards them. Sacrifice a chicken too, or maybe just have it for my dinner.

  43. Andy McAngry says:

    May, Fraser, Wells, Mundell and Jedward. Perfect examples of how easy it’s is in this day day and age to be complete ignorant imbeciles and still make pots of cash.
    Says everything you need to know about the average IQ of the public.
    If most people weren’t as thick as pig shit, none of the above and more would earn a penny.

  44. Petra says:


    Nicola, et al, getting on with the day job.

    ‘From the Arctic Circle to India: Scottish Government gets on with post-Brexit strategy.’


    ‘David Mundell refuses to deny Scots will be worse off under Theresa May’s Brexit deal.’

    “It’s less bad than the alternative?” Robertson said. “That’s the best you can tell people after two and a half years of negotiations?”….


    ‘Another difference? Health Care in Zambia or Fracking in China?’

    ‘‘Taxpayers’ money earmarked to support overseas development has been spent on supporting China’s fracking industry.”…


  45. Muscleguy says:

    The problem with the list system in Scotland is that it is regional. In a National list as NZ for eg runs the top places are occupied by the party bigwigs in case they don’t win their constituencies. Though to be a major party leader and not win a constituency would be greatly frowned upon and defenestration or a falling on one’s sword would ensue.

    Numpties don’t often get much a look in. But then the Tories have kirstene Hair and Nadine Dories as constituency winners so is it any wonder Miurdo gets a shot? he is what passes for talent in the Tory party.

  46. Brian Cahill says:

    The hypocrites, hypocrites.

  47. Legerwood says:

    Surely there is a case to be made for list MSPs to be limited to two terms? Seems more than a few of them are sitting on a cushy we number. All they have to do is keep in with the party leaders and tow the party line to keep their place on the list and thus their cushy wee job.

    That is not a situation conjusive to the introduction of fresh ideas or innovative policies being introduced to Parliament for the betterment of the people of Scotland. It is a situation that lends itself to stagnation in the body politic. One of the few bodies that can operate – I use that term very loosely – without any functioning neurones

  48. Gary45% says:

    As its getting near the end of the year, the 2018 league of Fuddery, how is Murdo positioned?
    Must be in the top 5 surely.
    I have 3 plywood FUD signs made, to be awarded to the top 3.

  49. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    “Absolutely no electoral support for Murdo Fraser”.

    “The Tories need to stop their anti-referendum campaign.”

    That’s Murdo’s twit tweet fixed now.

    (Of course, this just highlights why real Tories – and increasingly Red Tories now as well – don’t want independence. Because as whiny minorities here they are totally powerless and need Big Mumsy down south to achieve for them by force what they just can’t manage for themselves.)

  50. yesindyref2 says:

    All talk and no guts, that’s the Tories for you. So far 25 letters in, out of the 48 needed and expected by “Monday”, apparently some more unnamed ones, but Graham Brady has said they don’t have 48 yet. Ah but “Brexit-backing Conservative MP Anne Marie Morris has said there is “no question” the threshold of 48 letters from Conservative MPs required to trigger a ballot would be crossed this week.”. List here:

  51. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, some of the comments on this page are a laugh:

    But here’s an interesting one:

    Why ‘sadly’ will not happen?? All reputable evidence – from private industry, academia and government – show that Brexit will have significant negative impacts on current and future UK prosperity. So if Brexit doesn’t happen then surely people should be happy??

    By the way, the Scotch Whisky industry is very concerned with Brexit, and are desperate to stay in the SM at the very least, given the rise in bureaucracy and costs that a hard Brexit means. Buy plenty of it now before Brexit causes its price to rise.

  52. wull2 says:

    Further to my posts of past, where my data stopped working, the new Sim went missing, etc.

    My bad luck continues, my Gmail account stopped working, then last week I thought my luck was changing, I stopped receiving double glassing calls, I later discovered any calls, I got in contact with the provider, they came out after 4 days to tell me the fault was a wire was disconnected at the green cabinet.
    I wonder what they will think of next week.
    I think I will keep my hand off the door handle.

    Vote SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

  53. Kenny says:

    According to Brian Wilson, Latvia would always be better off governed from Moscow because union.

  54. Sinky says:

    Lesley Riddoch in Scotsman to-day well worth a read.

    Time for SNP to start making the case for Indy at every media opportunity

  55. Macart says:

    Spain are apparently none too happy with the UK over Gibraltar. To the point where they’d veto the Bexit deal.

    Who knew?

    I’d link to the piece, but the site doesn’t archive very well. (shrugs)

  56. call me dave says:

    Jings! Now caught Between a Jock and a Rock and hard place. 🙂

  57. manandboy says:

    This is how transparency works at Westminster.

    Sir Graham Brady, the chair of the 1922 Committee, and de facto member of the British Establishment, whom Theresa May works for and takes her instructions from, is the man who receives MP’s letters of no confidence in the PM. Secrecy is of the utmost so we are told, so no one knows how many letters he has received or from whom.

    The only thing between this system being manipulated to the Government’s advantage is the independence and integrity of Sir Graham Brady. In the current crisis for Theresa May and the Tory Government, it is simply beyond believing, that this simple system, bereft of transparency or verification, is adequate for the maintenance of the electorate’s fragile trust. After the angry reaction of MP’s on Saturday, we are now to believe that the calls for a vote of no confidence have just fizzled out.
    The Tories are treating the voters like children in the playground during a teacher’s meeting about selling the school.

  58. Nana says:


    Here’s the article from El Pais

  59. Simon Curran says:

    Could be wrong but I’m not even sure that Murdo got elected to the student council when he was at uni. either.

  60. Simon Curran @ 5.22 pm.
    Murdo Fraser would not make the top three in a Murdo Fraser lookalike competition.
    He is a serial loser.
    Let’s remind everybody evry day that he is an abject 8 time lose as a politician.
    He’s a loser; repeat and remix at every opportunity.

  61. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 16:52,

    No-one in the Tory Party with even a smidgen of ambition (or even a Walter Mitty level of fantasy) would want to take over from Mayhem right now. Wait until the whole nasty smelly sticky mess of Brexit has happened one way or another, then “bayonet any survivors”, (to borrow Ian Davidson’s unlovely phrase).

    One-by-one the very people who invoked this demon have been putting distance in, getting out of the way, hoping that they can dodge all the (well-deserved) blame and take over themselves afterwards.

    God help us if they ever do.

    And if the entire Tory ship of fools founders on the rocks of its own confusions, will that old leaky hulk HMS Corbyinia fare any better? Against all the evidence and the good judgement of its 2nd Officer, its deluded fool of a captain still believes he can somehow magic-up a better Leave deal than the stretch the EU did for Mayhem.

    Or pretends he can, but doesn’t seem overly keen to take over responsibility for the megashambles either.

    This right royal f-up is going to indelibly tarnish the reputations of absolutely everyone concerned. All, that is, except hopefully that nippy wee wumman in charge in Edinburgh.

  62. twathater says:

    Face it guys it’s no wonder ALL these britnat wastes of space are severely bricking themselves, just think all us Jocks are going to have a CLEARANCE SALE that will put black friday in the shade ,some of my wishes










    Am I asking too much

  63. Thepnr says:


    If Sir Graham Brady wanted rid of May and had 48 letters then the time to bring her down is not right now in my opinion.

    There’s every chance she would win a no confidence vote as most of the cabinet have stuck by her and any new potential leader I doubt would stick their head above the parapet if looking likely to be defeated in a meaningful vote on her Brexit deal.

    Why carry the can for her blunders? She is solely responsible for the deal that it going to go before parliament and if it fails to get it through then heads must roll. More than likely Theresa May’s, I don’t see anyone else wanting to be holding the parcel when the music stops.

    I’m sure the plotters are well aware that if they failed to get rid of her for whatever reason then she’s safe from any challenge for another year.

    If the vote fails to get parliament support it’s inconceivable that she could survive as someone else must take over surely? She’s spent her entire premiership getting “the best possible deal for the whole UK” and hasn’t so she would have to go.

    I guess some Tory Mp’s feel the same way and are just waiting to pounce. To quote May “now is not the time” LOL

  64. Macart says:


    Cheers Nana. It’s a laugh or cry moment, given that a goodly number of commenters and commentators across the indynet have been predicting this response from Spain for quite some time.

    I’m going with weary smirk at the moment. 😎

  65. Robert Louis says:

    Oh hallelujah! This piece by Lesley Riddoch, in the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ newspaper, is just simply excellent.

    The final line nails EXACTLY the problem I have with the Scotgov approach at present;

    QUOTE “Playing it safe can be laudable – but not being a player at a time like this is not an option.”

    This is the point. I can also see no sane reason (like Lesley) for the Scotgov to keep flogging the VERY,VERY dead horse of staying in the CU and SM. No wonder they are getting ignored by Westminster.

    Independence is the game. Time to get it going.

  66. Robert Louis says:

    So, Spain is unhappy about Brexit and Gibraltar, and may veto Theresa May’s ‘agreement’.

    Currently laughing my socks off.

  67. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    The Tories and Labour don’t seem to be able to handle dissent very well, it becomes open warfare. LibDems there’s now so few of them, nobody would notice.

    The SNP are accused of being a “cult”, disagreement not allowed, and perhaps this is where all the MPS who DO dissent are doing a great job these days. Quite a few of them speaking out about the Indy Ref, yet the party still functions perfectly.

  68. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Louis
    I look at it both ways. It needs the likes of Lesley Riddoch to agitate for the SG to “do more”, while the SG plays the Westminser game and gets ignored. By Westminster. But not by non-Indy supporters I think. More and more, I hope, they realise how the 35 SNP MPs are virtually powerless, as indeed the 56 were, and the ScotGov itself is virtually powerless, even while it plays Westminster’s game, according to Westminster’s contemptuous unruly rules.

    What do we do, oh what do we do? For Scotland? For me or my business? My familey, my job? Maybe I should just support Independence …

  69. ahundredthidiot says:

    The ‘campaign’ should start along the lines of…..

    ….in 2014 we asked you to vote with your heart….now we’re asking you to vote with your head!

  70. Balaaargh says:

    Comparing IndyRef2 to Murdo Fraser is a false analogy.

    Independence gives us something useful.

  71. Cactus says:

    The quickening towards iScotland continues…

    Feeling the collective confidence rising.

    To be confident is good.

    Gives you Wings.

  72. Andy-B says:

    BBC Shortbread getting its knickers in a twist over the Scottish athletic body wanting to compete in the European Championships under the Saltire.

    So they wheel out Brian Whittle to say its a bad idea for Scots athletes to compete in the European Championships under the Saltire, because, political hay could be made out of it.

    They really do loathe the thought of an independent Scotland.

  73. yesindyref2 says:

    Good. The more non-partisan people they hit with their extreme hatred of the saltire, the more people get peeved (the polite version).

  74. ALANM says:

    If independence isn’t achieved within the next two years then it probably never will be. One thing is certain – all of us currently living on this planet won’t have any say in the matter. Our time is now.

  75. Clootie says:

    I wish people would put more trust in Nicola to pick the time. She is better informed than the online pundits. More experienced and certainly more capable.
    We are all keen for Indy Ref2 to be called but we should be even keener to win it.

    As in the best movies when the troops are ready to fire “…wait….wait….wait”. The first volley has to be devastating.

  76. ben madigan says:

    The Scottish people have to realise that they Need Independence. That Life without it would be intolerable.
    Once Independence becomes a necessity/essential/crucial for the majority – game over

  77. Terence callachan says:

    LIST MSP,s should not be allowed, what is the point of an election and a parliament if people can be an MSP in that parliament without a majority voting for them if we need more MSP,s then elect more MSP,s through the vote, it’s simple all we need do is have more constituencies.

    The other thing that is wrong with the LIST system is that if you get a lot of MSP,s through the vote you then get a tiny number of LIST MSP,s

    And if you get hardly any MSP,s through the vote i.e. Nobody wants you in power ,you get loads of LIST MSP,s

    How crazy is that ? Penalise the party the majority voted for and reward the party,s we rejected

    LIST MSP,s should be abolished
    Only people we voted into parliament should be in parliament

  78. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cubby says: 19 November, 2018 at 2:42 pm:

    ” … What other Parliament lets political parties funded and controlled by foreign countries stand for election.
    It is not devolution when you have all these London place men/woman sitting in the parliament.
    Faux democracy rules the roost in Scotland.

    Aye! And there has never been a democracy ay Westminster. By definition the United Kingdom is a constitutional Monarchy but a monarchy non the less. That means the sovereignty of the state rests with a monarch, (even if the monarch must legally delegate their sovereignty to the parliament), the monarch is legally sovereign and legally owns everything and everyone in the kingdom so you cannot have a monarchy and be a democracy.

    BTW: Cubby, it might surprise you to find out just who is, and who is not, eligible to stand as an Member Of Parliament at Westminster:-

    “People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, and a British citizen, or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland”.


  79. Britain’s enemy is not Russia but its own ruling class, UN report confirms
    As the UK political establishment rips itself to pieces over Brexit, a far greater crisis continues to afflict millions of victims of Tory austerity.

    The above quote is from RT tonight. It pretty much hits the nail on the head.

    The nutters in Westminster have done their best to run the UKs aground while the homeless freeze, families queue at foodbanks and low paid workers stress over benefit payments.

    Tories destroying our future while Labour go outside for a fag.

  80. Morgatron says:

    Murdo is a total biffed brained , tottie bag tweed wearing arrogant twat of a man. When im down in the dumps I always have a wee swatch at his twitter account just to feel better and say out loud “there before the grace of god” The perfect example to do away with PR for Holyrood.

  81. Scotspatriot says:

    It’s being reported tonight that Mayhem will attempt to deliberately crash the markets after the EU deal vote, to scare the MPs into voting for it, second time around.
    Is this Woman for real ?

  82. yesindyref2 says:

    @Scotspatriot “It’s being reported

    That’s the clue right there! Do you believe it’s true?

  83. Cubby says:

    Brian Whittle Tory MSP and Reporting Scotland. What a right pair they are.

    Only in Scotland could a News programme supposedly for the country of Scotland make out that Scots athletes representiing ….wait for it ……. Scotland be a problem.

    The European Athletics championship will be like the Commonwealth games in future – athletes will represent Scotland, England etc rather than GB. Brian Whittle and Reporting Scotland think this a problem. Why????? Because it may be politicised says Brian Whittle trying to politicise it with the help of Reporting Scotland. Whittle what a total halfwhit – and the half is being extremely generous to him.

    To summarise again – he complains it may be politicised while just doing that very thing with the help of the British Propaganda Corporation.

    Earlier on in the programme it was just their usual bias reporting – May is described as the Prime Minister – Sturgeon is well Sturgeon. Conservatives having a wee visit to no. 10 were described as the great and the good of the Conservative party. The Scottish government is described as the SNP. British Nationalism is pouring out of every word they report. Reporting Scotland set a very high bar for grovelling to Westminster.

    Reporting Scotland are a total joke – their coverage is just absolute nonsense now.

  84. Robert Peffers says:

    @ALANM says: 19 November, 2018 at 7:48 pm:

    ” … If independence isn’t achieved within the next two years then it probably never will be.”

    Oh! get real!

    I began to support Scottish independence way back in the late 1940s. People were saying then that Scottish Independence would never happen and the party members were either terrorists wanting to blow things up or were just the lunatic fringe and would soon die out.

    Yet here we are in late 2018 on the cusp of independence with indyref2 looming ever nearer by the day.

    Victor Hugo wrote:

    “On résiste à l’invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l’invasion des idées. Literal translations:”

    A literal translation is:-

    ” … One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas”.

    The idea of Scottish independence has been with us since before the days of Bruce and Wallace who briefly brought it about.

    Then by a quirk of fate and Westminster intransigence we lost it again

    Yet the idea never died out and from a few members of the newly formed SNP in 1943 we now have a majority of Scottish National Party MPs at Westminster and an SNP Scottish Government at Holyrood.

    Independence is ours for the asking – we just need a clear majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland brave enough to claim it for Scotland, for themselves and for their children.

    It’s commin yet fir aa that.

  85. Cubby says:


    Anyone ever called you a pessimist before.

  86. Robert Peffers

    I think you might be just about right.

    We all convert one person thats all it takes. Just one person each and we are there.

    With the considerable assistance being given by the British Nationalist parties we should be home and dry in the very near future.

    It’s commin yet fir aa that.


  87. galamcennalath says:

    The media hyped up Farage until the succeeding in making him important.

    They’ve been hyping up Rees Mogg and Johnson too in the live of the far right. You could get the impression they mattered in the Tory party.

    Now, when it comes to getting 48 letters together, it looks like it’s close to call. Maybe they will, maybe not, get enough. They are not the Tory party.

    What is it the media live about the far right? Boosting it far beyond its actual relevance?

  88. Rock says:

    If Brexit happens in March 2019, the UK including its Scottish part will be out of the EU.

    There is a ZERO percent chance of an independence referendum happening before then.

    Not one poster here has dared to predict one before the official Brexit date.

    Not even the Rev. Stuart Campbell who has been extremely good at making political predictions in the past.

    All the previous boasting of Scotland “continuing” as a successor state is now redundant.

    It goes without saying that Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU if and when it became independent.

    I predict the new boasting: The EU would welcome Scotland as a member starting from the day it became independent.

    The reality is, if Brexit happens, Scotland will be at the total mercy of Westminster with no escape route until 2640 AD.

  89. Rock says:

    Clootie says:
    19 November, 2018 at 7:51 pm

    “I wish people would put more trust in Nicola to pick the time. She is better informed than the online pundits. More experienced and certainly more capable.”

    Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

    “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

    The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

    But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

    The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

    It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

    Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

    Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

    If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

  90. Dr Jim says:

    Alanm @7.48pm

    You might be more right than people think you are

    It’s a very dangerous time for Scotland right now, even though I believe we’re winning, one slip one mistake and it’s over, we have a different type of Tory lot these days, these Tories are prepared to dismiss the United Nations as nobodies, these Tories are demanding the EU must pay attention to the *Mother of Parliaments*, these Tories are prepared to change or ignore any rule at any cost and they’re making no secret of their use of the media now to do it

    This current crop of Tories are probably more dangerous than at any time in my living memory, but what makes it a whole lot worse is the Labour party are working hand in hand with them to achieve something that most people couldn’t have conceived of before and it’s the return to absolute rule and power over life and death as was in Empire days

    Right Royal Nazism or Stalinism, and both of the party of ONE want a share in it

  91. Cubby says:

    Nostradamus is back with his infantile predictions.

  92. auld highlander says:

    For some reason the word GROIK springs to mind.

  93. Phil says:

    Dr Jim says: 19 November, 2018 at 9:34 pm
    ” … You might be more right than people think you are Alanm.
    It’s a very dangerous time … ”

    Partially Dr Jim, partially. The current Tories / Labour duo-hegemony is nastieness personified as you say. What has added their emergent dangerous element is the relative success of the opposition from our Scottish independence movement. They have a possibly winning opponent.

    Stop At All Costs is their mantra. The backing in the media of global hedge funds and the prize of worldwide unregulated tax (secrecy) havens has made our opponent an international force which great care will be needed to outwit.

    Thus far the Scottish independence movement has outwitted them by careful use of honesty and competence, and over the decades heartfelt dedication of generation after generation.

    The values we want for independent Scotland are unwanted in capital-intensive Brit-nat-land.

  94. Liz g says:

    Phil @10.19
    Agreed….. But whit they don’t have is half the population of their country in agreement with them.
    As far as I can tell there’s very few English people who care all that much about the Union…

  95. Tinto Chiel says:


  96. Thepnr says:

    “The Braying Seer”

  97. Proud Cybernat says:

    Anyone get the sense that there’s a revolution on its way? Not just in Scotland with indy but right across the UK. More and more people are seeing how they have been manipulated by the BBC and MSM. More and more people are opening their eyes and seeing that the politicians and media are a self-preservation society supporting each other to enrich themselves to the detriment of the UK population – 20% living in poverty in the UK (according to UN).

    Are the BritNat Establishment worried? Damn tootin they are and it’s partly why they want the hardest Brexit possible. May’s so-called ‘Deal’ is just for show and will never come to pass but she’s got to make it look as though she tried; “Look we tried but those damned furriners wouldn’t give us what we want.” And all to ensure they do not have to disclose their ill-gotten gain residing in their offshore accounts that EU law as of March next year will require.

    The people of the UK have been totally played by these shysters and charlatans. Brexit has been ALL about the rich elite protecting their wealth from EU law. So Brexit was engineered, the whipping up of the race card with Farrage as the front man. (He’ll be well compensated).

    But the BritNat Establishment know that leaving the EU will cause untold damage to the UK economy with hundreds of thousands (if not millions) losing their livelihoods. There could be riots. So they’ve planned for that too when the Henry VIII laws are executed with sweeping controls on our rights, devolved legislatures ‘suspended’. They totally know what Brexit will bring to the population – but we’re just collateral damage as the whole endgame is to protect their wealth from prying EU laws.

    Played like a fiddle we have. And some on here wax on about how proudly British they are and how Treeza is doing her best and fighting for us all. (Her husband stands to make a fortune out of Brexit btw).

    You’ve been played – just like the rest of us. I hope the BritNat trolls on here keep all this in mind when their wife, son or daughter cannot get the medicine they need to ease their pain after Brexit.

    How the BritNat trolls on here cannot see what the wealthy elite in the BritNat Establishment are doing is simply beyond me.

    You are their useful idiots, BritNat trolls. Open your eyes.

    When the people see how they’ve been sold down the river (and more and more are beginning to) there will be a revolution right across this United Kingdom.

    It’s coming. You can put your mortgage on it.

  98. Liz g

    As far as I can tell there’s very few English people who care all that much about the Union…

    You are right Liz most English folk, living in England, dont really give it much thought.

    Why is that?

    Its due to the Regime and its partners in the media belittling Scotland and its people.

    Most folk in England don’t understand how important Scotland is to their survival.

    The rats at Westminster on the other hand are very aware and will obstruct us and continue to steal from us.

  99. Simon Curran says:

    You’re spot on. There are obviously family links but other than that most English people don’t think about the rest of the UK at all. Stereotypes about the Irish still lie just under the surface and the Jocks are just subsidy junkies who are looking for a fight, liable to be drunk and rubbish at sport.
    I always felt an English Independence Party could pick up votes except the informed know that they’d be the ones losing out, doesn’t look good losing a colony.

  100. Dr Jim says:

    9 out of 10 to STVs Colin McKay for his questioning and exposing of Deliar Mundell who actually claimed that everywhere he goes in Scotland the people want this deal done

    Mundell must go where no man has ever gone before to come up with this shit

    Sewer politics from the mouth of a sewer

  101. HYUFD says:

    Simon Curran There was an English Independence Party, the English Democrats, which campaigned for English Independence at the 2015 general election getting about 6,500 votes but it now just campaigns for an English Parliament

  102. HYUFD says:

    The English Democrats biggest electoral success was winning the Mayoralty of Doncaster in 2009

  103. Ken500 says:

    Unelected Lesley Riddoch criticises the SNP Scottish Gov again. The Greens will muck up Independence. They just do not think things through. The most unpopular Party with the most unpopular policies. An interest pressure group. They waste public money like there is no tomorrow and aid their unionist mates to do the same. They renege on green policies

    The Greens champion Norway. From a green prospective wealth based on Oil and making money from poorer places. They block road building for years. They are against expanding airports and tourist development. They are in the pocket of landowners financing their campaigns, To stop land coming back into public use. They do not take into account estate debt when they pontificate on land use. In many cases the bank own the land because of debt. The title just remains the same. It could be called in at any time if interest payments are not met.

    With a central Scottish bank established the land would be held in trust for the people. An national asset. More land has been returned in public buy outs, then was taken. There is still the question of what to do with it. Much is non productive for farming land. Too hilly. Animals can be kept in it. Or tree planting can benefit a wood production industry. Scotland was once covered in trees.

    A land tax could put up the price of land. The Landowners would benefit. They mortgage the land to the banks to fund their extravagant live styles. The price of land going up benefits the landowners. It could put up the price of housing and food. Affect exports etc. Land is exempt from tax to keep farms together. Larger farms produce more. Land ownership has stagnated and has remained in the same hands because the Scottish population has stagnated. Remained nearly the same since 1928. Depopulated because of Westminster centralist policies. It has only increased since Devolution 2000.

    The equivalent of £Billions of Scottish revenues were secretly and illegally used to fund London S/E. Oil revenues were syphoned off by Westminster Gov to fund London S/E. Thatcher wrote this must be kept secret on the documents. Building Canary Wharf and subsided the fraudulent bsnkers funding the Tory Party. 26 miles of Tilbury docks developed, taking jobs away all around Britain. Trident dumped at Fsslane illegally. Stopping commercial activities on the Clyde. Endangering Scotland. The illegal wars and tax evasion cost Scotland dear.

    Some whisky companies tax evade. They use Scottish resources and pay no tax on vast profits. It would be more productive to enforce tax laws and prevent tax evasion. Tax evasion which is supported by Westminster. London is the tax evasion capital of the world. Thatcher established tax havens in the 1980’s destroying tge world economy and increasing inequality. The wealth gap in the UK one of the worst in the world, The Westminster unionists are sanctionig and starving people. A complete and utter disgrace. Then some are complaining about it. They voted for it. Total lying hypocrites,

    Greens talk the talk but do not walk the walk. A token female rep. Getting second votes from SNP members and others to criticise the SNP illogical and irrationally. Damaging the Independence movement.

    Anyone can buy an acre of land and put a hut in it for a relative small outlay (over 25 years). People are not interested. Or they would do it Scotland has a ‘right to roam’. People can roam where they like. For a small outlay ie B&B or hotel. Millions do it extremely successfully. A mass tourist industry. Scotland is one of the most visited places in the world. (Pro rata). Edinburgh & Glasgow the most visited cities. Glasgow is one of the most successful world conference centres and music venues. Edinburgh a spectatular capital with many government and financial jobs.

  104. mike cassidy says:

    Is nobody going to break it gently to Rock

    that the numbers he keeps repeating are supposed to be broadcast, not written down.

    Somebody at the office is clearly taking the ….

  105. Ken500 says:

    Is UKIP not an English centric Party. Hardly anyone is Scotland votes for it. It’s anti migration and EU policies are not supported universally in Scotland.

  106. Hamish100 says:

    Fraser, Davidson May and Co don’t want a Independence referendum for there is a good chance they will be defeated.

  107. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 19 November, 2018 at 9:22 pm:

    ” … Now, when it comes to getting 48 letters together, it looks like it’s close to call. Maybe they will, maybe not, get enough.

    Let me put it this way, galamcennalath/

    If you were a sitting Tory MP who sent in such a letter of No confidence in the leader of your party, at this present time.

    What with BRUKExit about to happen and the threat of an Irish reunification and Scottish Independence in the offing, would you fancy your chances of being re-elected?

    What is more would you fancy your chances of even being re-elected as the Government or more than likely being the opposition?

  108. Dan Huil says:

    DUP “flexing its muscles” against the tories in Westminster apparently. Rabid British nationalists fighting rabid British nationalists: gives you a nice warm feeling in the belly.

  109. HYUFD says:

    Ken500 No UKIP is a party founded to take the UK out of the EU, not for English independence like the English Democrats. Plus UKIP has a Scottish MEP in David Coburn.

    Indeed the English Democrats Party chairman, Richard Tillbrook said ‘the United Kingdom Independence Party “have no interest in England whatsoever”. He said the party was “consolidating our position as the English nationalist party”.’

  110. Cubby says:

    The monster Britnat English Tory has been let loose again. Will someone put the psychopath back in his cage.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    Under ancient rules, Doncaster is still part of Scotland – and calls are growing for Scotland to remain in the European Union after voters there voted overwhelmingly to stay.

    The town was seized by the Scots nearly 900 years ago – and has never officially been handed back.

    Local historians Peter Robinson and Charles Kelham unearthed evidence that Doncaster was under Scottish rule for 21 years from 1136 to 1157. But while the town was officially signed over between the kings of England and Scotland, it seems it was never formally handed back.

    It appears even the English Democrats would appear to prefer to be Scots than ruled by Westminster.

  112. yesindyref2 says:

    During Indy Ref 1, the mayor of Doncaster supported a YES vote – as long as we took Doncaster with us. That would, of course, have added two major sporting events to Scotland’s inventory. Alex Salmond would have been delighted 🙂

  113. Petra says:

    Scotland Tonight: The out and out liar Mundell is still saying that the Scottish Government (SNP) is pushing for, forcing the UK into, a No deal Brexit even although they, the SNP, have said that it will be catastrophic for Scotland / the UK. He goes on to say that her, Nicola Sturgeon’s, reason for doing so is because she wants chaos, etc, so that she can call for Indyref2.

    Sorry I can’t reproduce his doe-eyed look, “innocent act”, and nasally, whining, weasel-mouthed voice on here. Most will know what I’m talking about, I’m sure. A lying ratbag of the first order. On a positive note anyone with an iota of ken will see right through him.

    Mike Russell is saying that this state of affairs constitutes an emergency for Scotland. Mundell rubbishes that too … “this is all about the SNP wanting another referendum.”

    Colin MacKay STV says, “surely there are other options such as a GE or EURef2.” Mundell says that he hasn’t come across anyone in his constituency that would want either. LOL.

    You couldn’t make this stuff (and nonsense) up. It just beggars belief. Beggars belief that they are now lying with impunity and nothing can be done about it because there are no repercussions for political liars (other than they’ll be booted out when we get our Independence). Then again if he goes too far!

    When Mike Russell is confronted with Mundell’s “version of events”, he says Mundell is lying.

    The Tories had decades to analyse the impact of pulling out of the EU, but didn’t bother their bahookies to give it a second thought, put pen to paper, but had the brass neck to slag off the Indyref1 White Paper, demand our Plan B and so on. We’ve heard about Electoral fraud, witnessed one disaster after another, noted the instigators doing a runner, been gobsmacked at their pure ignorance of their field of so-called expertise, watched one Tory after another tear each other to shreds, over and above T May, from Mundell to Raab, Raab to Mundell, Thompson to Mundell and so on. But hey this is the SNP’s fault.

    Theresa May will probably hang on in there because no one wants her job. More than anything not one of them can come up with a better plan / deal than her, other than the big mouth No deal Brexiteers who are beginning to realise that a No deal would be an unmitigated disaster, that could be followed by a lynching. There will be no General Election because they can’t take the chance of losing again and there will be no EURef2 either because they know Remain might win which could lead to civil unrest, if not an English Civil War.

    Imo, we are now weeks away, (9 at most), from Nicola calling for Indyref2.

  114. HYUFD says:

    Yesindyref2 When Kind David 1st of Scotland invaded and conquered much of Northern England (yes it was not always the evil English doing the invading and the poor oppressed Scots being invaded) he took Doncaster but it was eventually recaptured by Henry IInd even if he never completed the formal paperwork

  115. yesindyref2 says:

    The mayor of Doncaster Peter Davies suggested his home town should now be allowed to vote in the referendum. “We would be delighted to take part and if I did I would probably vote for Mr Salmond. I think he is the top politician in the UK at the moment,” said Davies, who represents the English Democrats, the political party committed to English devolution. ” (Scotsman TOM PETERKIN Sunday 19 February 2012)

    Sensible people, the English Democrats party, perhaps the only one in England.

  116. Thepnr says:

    The SNP and Independence movement are in a win win situation here no matter what happens.

    We’ll know in December where we’re going next after the “meaningful vote”. My own view is that May’s Brexit plan will be dumped by parliament and then May is gone.

    Leaderless and after 2 years to do a deal and failing people will be demanding a General Election. The SNP can use that to their advantage and they will do.

    Alternatively and sometimes miracles can happen she gets her deal through parliament and that leaves Scotland outside the CU and SM them we are heading for Indyref2.

    Not long to wait now to see how this pantomime plays out.

  117. Robert Peffers says:

    @HYUFD says: 19 November, 2018 at 11:51 pm:

    ” … Simon Curran There was an English Independence Party,”

    Tell us something we don’t know, HYUFD. The were complete nutters and very much more anti-Scottish, anti-Irish and anti-everyone else as well.

    It wasn’t like the Scots, Welsh or Irish Nationalists it was out and out racism. While there are a few right nutters in the Scottish Independence movement they are not in the SNP for the SNP doesn’t stand for such people.

    The party long ago got shot of such people as those who advocated violent action.

    For example Siol nan Gaidheal were thrown out. Scottish Nationalism is inclusive and welcomes anyone from anywhere as long as they join for the right reason. Our enemy is not the people of England it is Westminster and the rabid unionist political parties. Including those that preface their United Kingdom Party name with, “Scottish”. There isn’t a Scottish Unionist party they are Westminster Establishment parties in Scotland and take their orders from Westminster.

    There are some rather prominent SNP MPs who are English born.

  118. Lara says:

    I trust that I’ve left it long enough to dish out a pent up rant that’s over 90% O/T. It includes gratuitous swearing so please just scroll on by if you feel you might be offended.


    I DO.

    You go shopping at your local supermarket (sorry folks for me that is still a Tesco, Lidl opens in 3-4 months). It’s now so shit you can hardly believe it. Wiped out of stuff. Where is the cheese? Remember when there was a lovely selection of continental cheese? But a distant memory. It’s a mixture of some Polish stuff and UK/Ireland produced mega cheap cheddar now bulks up a lot of the shelving. It appears Tesco can’t or won’t get French cheese anymore, it’s “British Camembert” these days only. Forget the others you used to see from great food producers like Spain, Italy, Germany et al.

    Walking round there’s heaps of stuff “out of stock”. It’s actually depressing, reminding me of that meme that was going around with a tin of beans and some bread – except now it aint funny – because Brexit is already biting and we haven’t left yet.

    Do you actually think the likes of Tesco will ensure its limited ‘nice’ stock makes it to a place like Paisley? Course not. It is not a supermarket visited by the affluent. If it does make it to Scotland, it will go to the giant ones with big car parks, and far away Scotland will get the worst of it. You surely, dear reader, know I speak the truth.

    Then you come to pay for it. Forget any human interaction. A machine instructs you in a posh English voice. One human looks on in case the machine struggles. It doesn’t. Whoopy doo.

    Then you go to pay for it, only £6 or £7 worth of stuff, and out comes the fiver, Winston cunting Churchill peers at you with a smug look. Again, an English fiver? AGAIN? WTF. And what kind of place puts its best known WAR CRIMINAL on its money. And to think folk were outraged at Maggie potentially being on a note?! He makes her look saintly. He is scum; celebrated, admired, Great British murdering bastard scum.

    So now you’re alone again with the thoughts in your head. Brexit will be the worst in Scotland. Everyone else who voted against it is getting a special deal. Except for viewers in Scotland. We didn’t vote for the government that brought the vote about, we didn’t vote to leave the biggest and most affluent and most successful trading bloc on the planet (and on our doorstep) because crucially WE ARE NOT MORONS.

    Then on the way home you walk over a crappy, dark footbridge, that was supposed to be replaced 18 months ago to make it accessible and safer and better lit etc. It would have been, but the council ran into a legal problem for permission. Know why? Because it crosses property owned by Railtrack. And who, pray tell, owns Railtrack? The effing UK government, that’s who. So no, Renfrewshire, you can’t build your new bridge. We don’t care how much it’s needed or for how many decades. Tough shit, Scotland. We are the UK and WE run the show. SIT DOWN etc.

    Then you look at social media, and see these absolute clowns pretending Scotland is oh-so-poor, and that leaving our unfair and one-sided union would be madness. Or to quote dirty Britnat confidence-trickster Blair McDougall just the other day “the idiocy of independence” (no mate you’re the fucking idiot… look at what you just said… how can independence EVER be idiotic? Moron). They talk about bullshit like “the Fiscal Transfer” as if it’s a real thing. Only in British Scotland does Fiscal Transfer mean something different to what it does anywhere else in the world.

    In normal countries, a fiscal transfer is what it sounds like – literally, a transfer of funds from one institution to another – eg perhaps the German federal government might give say €3bn to the autonomous region of Bavaria for, say, increased road safety. That is a normal fiscal transfer. €3bn was transferred from one to the other.

    In Scotland, a Fiscal Transfer according to these utter goons, is calculated by taking the GERS figure of Scottish deficit (as if gospel) and dividing it per head of population. If you don’t know this absolute bullshit definition, they will mock you. You should know what they have invented, fool! And you think you can run your own affairs?! Angry face.

    Then you have the triumphalism as some bunch of liars did another poll and it was 43% (including DKs of course, so it’s a smaller number) for Yes. And then it’s also gospel. Never mind the purpose of polling and what horseshit it tends to be. There was polling immediately after the Brexit vote showing Scotland at 57% Yes. Are we expected to believe that a huge number of people have changed back to a No? Or do we recognise, like intelligent adults, that the purposes of the polls were different? The 57% was released to cow the English into so-called “Bregret” because their decision would maybe end the union, but that backfired spectacularly when they discovered Brexiters don’t give a shit about that, and it was encouraging to the indy movement. Hence the return to levels in *every* poll of around 45% or so when you remember to be normal and exclude DKs. More bollocks.

    So here you sit, surrounded by fuckwits, in a country that is awash with hydrocarbons, not just $trns worth of oil, £bns of gas but also an astonishing amount of unmined coal. So much in fact that we’ll never use it all.

    Our enormous sea territory has a huge potential for wind power, and our coastline has massive tidal energy potential. We can be the Saudi of renewables… but no! Instead we are expected to believe that we are too poor to be a successful, prosperous nation, and that we can’t possibly run it as well as the shitshow that passes for UK governance.

    Then we have those within the Yes movement whining the fuck on about the EU. Oh it’s not really independence, they say, failing to grasp the urgency of Scotland’s situation, and still playing the word game, the wankers’ game of pissing about with definitions and trying to win pathetic, teenaged debate level discussions, pissing about like fucking idiots while Scotland considers drowning. Sorry, but if you’re one of those people, get your fucking head in order and PRIORITISE. If you don’t stop that shit, like literally NOW, then you are a fucking moron and I don’t want to know you. Get out of the way of those of us who will free this ancient proud European nation.

    It’s beyond parody. I’m really, really pissed off with these things which are basically all from today’s thoughts and incidents. No, it’s more. I’m fucking angry. And if we don’t start approaching some kind of light in the distance, I’m going to become extremely misanthropic, and eventually piss off and leave you sorry fuckers to your shitty North Britain, while I go and live somewhere hot, and forget about the worst and most deceptive and dishonest state on the face of the planet, and the inbred, chinless wonders who believe they are born to run it and lord it over you, the North Brits.


  119. Dr Jim says:

    @Ken 500

    Lesley Riddoch is one of the good guys Ken

  120. sandy says:

    Has ” Sottish Labour” or “Scottish Conservative” been registered as a unique name? If not, why not get in there & register it.

  121. sandy says:

    What would Davidson, Mundell, Fraser, etc, do then,

  122. Graeme McAllan says:

    Oh dear, latest bathroon emergency and released a Runny Murdo 🙁

  123. Dorothy Devine says:

    I missed Onw Shoe Whittles appearance on BBBC – mostly because I gave up on BBBC Scotland a long time ago. Seems he is not only One Shoe Whittle but One Brain Cell Whittle too.

    Nice of the BBBC to give him airtime to deny his country .

    STV has given up on ‘news’ too , it tells ‘stories ‘ instead. Unless , of course , it can give an SNP BAD one.

    Someone else can forgive them their sins , I sure as hell can’t.

  124. Rabbie says:

    Does anyone actually pay attention or even read twitter?

  125. Petra says:

    Bring it on.

    ‘SNP to call for indyref2 if May’s Brexit deal makes it through the Commons.’

    …”He (Russell) added: “If the unacceptable deal goes through – and I never predict these things – there will be substantial economic damage and then I’m happy to say we will have to say to the people of Scotland ‘make your choice’.” …


    ‘Kirsty Hughes: Backstop debate is a distraction from real Brexit damage.’


    Andrew Tickell: ‘Fairytale thinking from am-dram Tories leaves us with one answer.’

    …”This happy band may see themselves as a crack negotiating team, but in the cold light of day, the Frabjous Five look more like an underpowered am-dram production of The Wizard of Oz. Judy Garland leading tin men, scarecrows and cowardly British lions up the yellow brick road, to strains of “if I only had a brain”. The scenery may be collapsing, but their Brexit message to the Prime Minister comes straight out of the Cowardly Lion’s songbook.”..


    ‘Amber Rudd claims UN warning on desperate plight of UK’s poorest is ‘inappropriate’, in first Commons appearance as DWP minister.’

    ”Amber Rudd has launched an attack on a UN report about the state of poverty in Britain in her first Commons appearance as work and pensions secretary.

    In her new role as head of the department that oversees UK welfare policy, Ms Rudd said the language used by the UN special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights was “wholly inappropriate” and “discredited a lot of what he was saying”…

  126. Kangaroo says:

    Brexit: The Revolution Eats its children

    “When the chips are down, the ultras cant even mount a decent rebellion.”

    Resolute to the End

  127. Petra says:

    Letter in the Sunday National by Ian Greenhalgh, Edinburgh.

    ”I would like to thank Lovina Roe for taking the time to read my letter and for her reply (Letters, November 11). I was surprised at how similar our family stories are. I certainly have no issue with the heartfelt wearing of the poppy in remembrance of her grandfathers and their part in the wars of this country.

    However, Ms Roe then asks if I would prefer to live under the rule of tyrants such as Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito. We are fortunate in our countries to see these “monsters” from afar and have the luxury to contemplate their actions. But what of those who look from afar upon this slowly passing Empire and its past violations? Who and what are their monsters?

    It might have been the child lying under her dying parents when Colonel Dyer opened fire for 10 minutes on unarmed, peaceful protesters at Amritsar. Escape routes had been blocked and so there was nowhere to get away from the remorseless onslaught. The relentless murder of women and children only stopped because of ammunition running out.

    Colonel Dyer was lauded as a hero of Empire and was well rewarded for his heroism. Millions were to be murdered, tortured, r*ped and abused throughout India under British rule. Once the main trading nation of the world, India was stripped of its wealth and its cultural and political structures for the benefit of the British Exchequer. Its peoples brutalised and murdered in their millions.

    Or perhaps the mother in an interment camp in South Africa slowly starving to death. Her husband captured and deported having to watch alone as her children lay dying in front of her from malnutrition, praying that they would die first so that they would not have to face their tortuous deaths alone. Practicing “scorched earth” policies to starve civilians, Kitchener, the architect of these interment camps, was made a Viscount and acclaimed a hero in Britain.

    What about the much-loved uncle who was attending a Gaelic football match at Croke Park along with a few friends. Watching in dismay as British tanks smashed their way into the ground. Then gasping with horror as your best friend falls after being shot through the chest and having to explain to his grieving family as to why he would not be coming home.

    Churchill ordered the villainous Black and Tans into Ireland and did nothing to stop their excesses that included murder, beatings, torture and r*pe. Ireland had long suffered under British rule, the induced famine.

    We may ask the shop owner who had been r*ped using various tool handles and military dogs and whose testicles were wired into the electrical mains whether he thought Tony Blair was being overly cautious about Iraq and weapons of mass destruction. Or the father-in-law of the bride whose family had gathered for a wedding only to see half of his close family blown to smithereens by David Cameron’s “super” advanced British technology.

    It might also be asked by the child in Yemen who has just watched his brothers and sisters annihilated in their own house. He wasn’t attending school that day because it too had been demolished by British bombs. The hospital where some lives may have been saved was also obliterated by the weaponry Theresa May provided through her government to an indiscriminate Saudi coalition.

    It is clear we don’t have to look too far for the atrocities of Empire. The Lowland and Highland Clearances of Scotland offer many examples of the brutal and murderous practices of British forces. Known as “Butcher Cumberland” in Scotland, the Duke of Cumberland was nicknamed “Sweet William” in London and Handel composed an oratorio especially for him: Hail the Conquering Hero Comes.

    Churchill might also be a name to be remembered if you were a Welsh miner or Glasgow dock worker simply asking to be treated with some dignity and respect.

    And now because of Brexit and the delusional launch of Empire II we have the threat of British troops on the streets throughout the UK. Of course Ed Miliband threatened Scotland with troops on the border and Alistair Darling hinted at running battles in the streets if Scotland dared to be independent. At the time we laughed but it is clear from this Brexit shambles that even now the old architects of a murderous and cruel British Empire will be prepared to use the same tried and tested methods, which kept populations under control in the past, upon the peoples of our four nations.

    The monsters never went away. We had just turned a blind eye to them.”

  128. Kangaroo says:

    I just hope we can get the Continuity Bill case and the A50 revocation case into the mix soon. As the result will be along the lines of “those whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad”


  129. Dorothy Devine says:

    Petra thank you for that posting that letter and an even bigger thank you to Ian Greenhalgh for writing it – he has perfectly reproduced my thoughts.

  130. Sinky says:

    Scotsman gleefully puts dodgy poll with loaded question showing 60% in favour of remaining in UK on front page and expert commentary from Panels Nash of Scotland in Union and the ubiquitous professer.

  131. Robert Louis says:

    Jeezo. LABOUR are back banging on about ‘ID cards’ for ‘brits’ nonsense. No doubt they will want it to have a big f***ing union jack all over it, to prove how ‘britishy’ we all are.

    Labour eh? Just simply can never be trusted. Labour’s Mr. Adonis on TV, talking about immigrants using the NHS, schools etc… Labour!!! Does he not realise that what he has said about ‘immigrants’ is the EXACT same as the Nazi’s in relation to jews, the disabled and homosexuals. What on earth has become of Labour???

    He has just cited Sherlock Holmes. Utter morons. The UK is going down the toilet, and they start banging on about ID cards again.

  132. Robert Louis says:

    Anybody else getting kind of sick of the talking heads on TV, constantly coming out with p*sh and bullish*t like ‘I voted remain, I’m one of the remoaners, but I just wish now they would (in emphatic tone) get on with it.’

    Do people fall for lies like that?

  133. Al Dossary says:

    @Robert Louis,

    I have never really understood just why the British press or citizens are so dead set against ID cards. The mantra seems to be that Westminster “proposes” ID cards, then briefs the compliant press to start running stories about how bad they are, how much they will cost and how the police, secret services and HMG will abuse the system. After a few weeks HMG decide not to introduce them and the plan is forgotten for a few years more. It is the perfect example of a compliant media whipping up a storm about something that is the norm all over the world.

    My honest belief it’s that HMG does not want to lose the cash cow that is the passport system. As (current) members of the EU, a passport is not required for travel within the EU. What is required however is a “valid form of ID”. – which in our case the only valid form we have is a passport. Just watch all the EU citizens at Glasgow or Edinburgh as they arrive through border control with their ID cards and no passport.

    My fingerprints are on record in Saudi. I have a Saudi ID card (Iqama) and every time I enter or leave the country through an airport they take my fingerprint. Everything about my life is tied into that 1 piece of ID. If I need a new SIM card for my phone or even a new post-paid contract for calls and minutes my Iqama and fingerprint is all I need. If I hire a car, my Iqama and driving license is all I need. I literally have 1 piece of plastic that is linked into every system they have.

    None of this crap about needing 2 separate utility bills in addition to my driving license or passport that is required in UK.

  134. gus1940 says:

    The Scotsman just gets worse.

    Today’s lead story is the result of a poll which claims that support for Indy is down in the 30s.

    Surprise,Surprise – it was commissioned by SIU. Do they really think that any sane person would attach any credence to a poll commissioned by SIU?

    To compound the paper’s suicidal journalism there is an article by Pamela Nash (of SIU) where she argues that if The UK didn’t exist it would have to be created.

    As expected the above has attracted the usual mob of hysterical lunatics BTL.

  135. HYUFD says:

    Robert Peffers The English Democrats were not the BNP though they had a few extremists like any nationalist movement including the SNP. They have argued for an English Parliament, as Scotland has and the SNP argued for before 1997 and have in the past argued for English independence as the SNP do for Scotland. To all intents and purposes the English Democrats are the English version of the SNP

  136. Hamish100 says:

    Corbyn wishes brexit along with the tories and DUP. There lies the problem. Westminster at its worse.

  137. Dorothy Devine says:

    I thought we had waved goodbye to the ‘Scotsman” – the most ill titled british nationalist newspaper.

  138. Sharny Dubs says:


    Can’t live with them

    Can’t live with them.

  139. Kangaroo says:

    Dorothy @ 8:36am

    Re Scotsman
    The company went bust and was then effectively sold to the creditors.

  140. robertknight says:

    Demented Ulster Puritans put the hurts on Daisy May in the Commons I see.

    Honestly, what did she expect would happen? Here lies Faust…

  141. Macart says:

    @Robert Louis

    Well, it is and it isn’t a lie.

    Some folk are sick of being afraid and uncertain. They just want it to end and for life to go back to some kind of normalcy. Some folk are merely not interested and couldn’t care less about politics or repercussions. Johnny Furriner wouldn’t dare. They’re going to be reasonable because we’re British and reasons etc. Then there are those with a vested interest who need Brexit to happen for their small demographic and their own narrow personal interests. Now they really do need it just to end quickly at this point. All are deluded in one way or another.

    Of the latter two? Couldn’t care less and fuck everyone else? They may find that several million people really do care about being forced into hardship and that they’re merely stockpiling their own Karmic misery, which WILL come back to visit them.

    Of the former? Who wouldn’t be frightened or worried? Who wouldn’t want it all to end and be alright? It’s not going to be though. It’s going to be appalling and huge swathes of the populations of the UK are nowhere near prepared for this. The recent damning UN report which covered the effects of poverty in the UK, only covers the effects of UK legislation throughout the term of austerity ideology. Brexit is a whole other shit show.

    This is where folk find out what happens when you allow the political class to define your world instead of the other way round.

  142. Ottomanboi says:

    I agree Robert Peffers, the SNP is politically a very strait laced party. It threw out the young Alex Salmond and others of radical tendency. It is effectively a meeting ground for the cautiously ‘getting on in years’ faction. In that it reflects the Scottish demographic. The dynamic, young and imaginative pack up and leave. Scotland is not a place for the ‘unorthodox’ thinker.
    The party that ought to be giving Scotland a good boot up the fundament wears carpet slippers.
    Things have got to change.

  143. Luigi says:

    Macart says:

    20 November, 2018 at 9:03 am

    Some folk are sick of being afraid and uncertain. They just want it to end and for life to go back to some kind of normalcy.

    That is my big concern. There are already signs this is angle the BritNats are going to play on when the next referendum campaign kicks off:

    “Yes, Brexit has caused so much chaos, the people need a break – no more uncertainty, no more referendums!”

    “Just say Naw!” will become “Gies a Break!”

    Sounds ridiculous, but this is what they will play (they don’t have much else).

    I’m not sure how to counter this, but we need to be ready. My instinct would be to go on the offensive with a little fear of our own. We musn’t give em time to settle into a narrative of their choice. We cannot just defend defend defend. We must take the fight to them this time. Carrot AND stick approach. 🙂

  144. Breeks says:

    Sorry Mike Russell, but I fear that’s a long-telegraphed boxing glove without a fist in it.

    Put some weight in it. If May’s Brexit Deal makes it through the Commons, the restriction of trade inside the UK constitutes a formal breach of the Treaty of Union. Please Mr Russell, Nicola, all of you, get our Constitutional Ironclad out of dry dock, into the water and under full steam.

    Start framing the narrative around the issue of Constitutional Sovereignty, the route to our salvation which growing numbers of us are beginning to recognise as the only way to save ourselves from Brexit with sure footed certainty.

    Nobody in Westminster is rattled by the prospect of a referendum which they’ve already sabotaged once already. The referendum process which you would only now, perhaps embark upon, is still conflicted with “if” and “then” preconditions and preambles which YOU yourselves create, and it increasingly feels like a forlorn option because the we are now against the clock and we have a mere 129 days until Brexit. Every corruption of the British Establishment is lined up against us, from its Grima Wormtongue Mundell in his overinflated Office, through the perfidious corridors of Westminster, and seeps into every one of our homes through the all pervasive saturation bombing of the BritNat Propagandists.

    Ok, ok, against my better judgement, I will allow myself to fall in line behind your lead, but please, anybody, from Nicola to Ken500, please explain to me why our rightful and legitimate Constitutional Sovereignty is the great unmentionable. Why is it treated like Sauron’s ring of power? – the one ring to beat them all, (I paraphrase), but for all it’s strength a power that we cannot wield.

    It wasn’t the Elves who made Scottish Sovereignty, it was made with the distilled essence of good troubled people of Scotland who just wanted to rid themselves of an ogre from the South and to be free of their covetous ambitions forever. It is OUR ring of power. It is the power that destroys them, not us.

    Our Sovereignty is a very good thing, and created for exactly the circumstances which we now find ourselves to be in. Think about that. OUR people in the 14th Century knew exactly what they were dealing with, and gave us the means to defend ourselves. That really should be making the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. They KNEW.

    If our sovereignty was behind a break glass unit and only for use in emergencies, then for all our sakes, elbow the glass and push the damned button.

  145. Petra says:

    @ Dorothy Devine says at 7:02 am …. ”Petra thank you for that posting that letter and an even bigger thank you to Ian Greenhalgh for writing it – he has perfectly reproduced my thoughts.”

    Mine too Dorothy and the contents of his letter are no doubt just a ‘taster’ of what’s gone on / is going on. We’ll never have any real idea of the level of suffering that Westminster has created and maybe it’s just as well as I think it would drive us all crazy. There’s only so much that the mind can take.

    He’s also spot on when he says, ”At the time we laughed but it is clear from this Brexit shambles that even now the old architects of a murderous and cruel British Empire will be prepared to use the same tried and tested methods, which kept populations under control in the past, upon the peoples of our four nations. The monsters never went away. We had just turned a blind eye to them.”

    I wouldn’t put anything past them, however they’ll need to watch their backs as we’ve got millions of supportive ex-pats around the world, some of whom will be keeping an close eye on them.


    ‘David Pratt: I’ve witnessed first-hand why AK-47 has killed so many.’

    …”No firearm of any kind has killed more people than the Kalashnikov. In the 71 years since its first prototype was made, the AK-47 has dealt death to millions. Every year, small arms kill between 20,000 and 100,000 people in the world’s conflicts, with the Kalashnikov accounting for a high proportion and quite possibly the majority of this human toll. Kalashnikovs make up more than one in 10 of all firearms globally.”..

    ”With more than a million Kalashnikovs still produced annually, one of the world’s foremost killing machines is set to remain at the centre of the global arms trade for decades to come. Today the Kalashnikov continues to kill more people each day than all the world’s tanks, warplanes and ships combined.”..


    ‘Colder climates make people more likely to drink heavily, study finds.’


    Leslie Riddoch: ‘Govanhill’s Swap Market scheme proves a huge success.’

    ..”Since the opening in September this year, 600 people have become members. “We’ve been swamped – we actually need time to come up with more unusual swaps.”

  146. galamcennalath says:


    A lot of folks just don’t do joined up politics.

    They don’t follow events sufficiently closely to see the patterns, interconnections, and implications that we geeks generally do. They tend to view things in isolation. They want one thing but often don’t understand that means something else is then bound to happen. They support a party because of the policy of the moment they like, but don’t appreciate all the other baggage that comes with that same party.

    It is no surprise many become disillusioned. They have been indoctrinated into believing someone else will just make it all ok for them. That doesn’t always fall into place, though.

    IMO the problem is, as always, useless or intentionally biased media spending more time hiding things that exposing them.

    The UK electorate is very poorly served by its msm.

  147. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, that was not only on the BBC Scotland news earlier

    No-deal Brexit would be ‘catastrophic’ for Scotland says David Mundell

    but it’s the main article on the Record’s politics page, the Telegraph have got it, and the Scotsman.

    Get out of that without moving, Davie boy, you’re on Record!

  148. mountain shadow says:

    The Scotsman just gets worse.

    Today’s lead story is the result of a poll which claims that support for Indy is down in the 30s.

    Surprise,Surprise – it was commissioned by SIU. Do they really think that any sane person would attach any credence to a poll commissioned by SIU?


    Whilst the poll was commissioned by SiU, it was carried out by a known and well used polling company. Should Unionists ignore polls commissioned by this site? The question asked appeared pretty straightforward too and was not loaded.

    The reality is, too many Scots are not being persuaded by independence and we appear to be losing.

    The UK is in as big a hole politically as it has ever been in my lifetime (45 years) and yet we still cannot get ahead in the independence polling.

    I don’t know what we can do to reverse this, perhaps a hard brexit is what we and the FM should be hoping for?

    I think it is pretty obvious why the FM hasn’t started the gun on a 2nd referendum, it’s because we’ll lose.

  149. Ottomanboi says:

    What might well be on offer post Brexit.
    Dominic Raab as Great Leader. Scary!

  150. manandboy says:

    By a healthy majority, leave voters in England, do not care what happens to the UK. Theresa May’s propaganda machine will not broadcast that anytime soon so as to protect her ‘precious, precious Union’ soundbite.

    Make no mistake, Brexit is a force of English Nationalism. Leave voters want to ‘take back control’ for England, not for the UK.

    Theresa May is panicking because yet another grassroots political movement has sprung up which is a direct threat to the status quo of the Ruling Class in England and its control over the UK.

    A fire has been lit under England’s political power. Scotland would need to have an IQ of zero to help douse the flames.
    Yet there are some in the Yes movement who seem willing to do that by pushing for an ill-timed referendum campaign.

    Timing will be everything if Scotland is to gain independence – this time round.

  151. shug says:

    If Nicola calls indy ref 2 and TM refuses permission but Nicola goes ahead and the Labour and conservative refuse to stand (like they did in Spain)should the Nationalists run a paper no campaign to allow people to vote no, present the argument and make the result legitimate

    any thoughts anyone

  152. One_Scot says:

    Lol, Fake News and now Fake Independence supporters. They must think we zip up the back.

  153. hackalumpoff says:

    UK Supreme REJECTS UK Gov appeal re Article 50 case.

    Under section 40 of the Court of Session Act 1988, the only basis on which an appeal against the interlocutors in question might be taken would be if they constituted “a decision constituting final judgment in any proceedings”. “Final judgment” is defined as meaning “a decision which, by itself or taken along with prior decisions in the proceedings, disposes of the subject matter of the proceedings on its merits”. The question therefore arises whether, as the Secretary of State contends, the interlocutor dated 3 October 2018 constituted final judgment in these proceedings as so defined. If it did not, it follows that this court has no jurisdiction to hear an appeal.

  154. Luigi says:

    If the SG was really savy, it would be dropping fake hints about timing to completely throw WM into thinking something was happening at such and such a date, when in reality something else is planned for another date. That would throw the BritNats into a tizzy and draw their heavy fire on the wrong target.

    It’s about time the SNP got street-wise.

    Just sayin. 🙂

  155. Petra says:

    @ Breeks says at 9:18 am …. ”Sorry Mike Russell, but I fear that’s a long-telegraphed boxing glove without a fist in it. Put some weight in it. …… Nobody in Westminster is rattled by the prospect of a referendum which they’ve already sabotaged once already.”

    I don’t know if I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying Breeks? Are you saying that you don’t want the SNP to hold a referendum now? That Nicola Sturgeon / Mike Russell should just write to Theresa May and say you’ve just breached the Treaty of the Union and we’re out of this?

    ”It wasn’t the Elves who made Scottish Sovereignty, it was made with the distilled essence of good troubled people of Scotland who just wanted to rid themselves of an ogre from the South and to be free of their covetous ambitions forever. It is OUR ring of power. It is the power that destroys them, not us…

    Too bad for us then that around 50% of the good troubled (Sovereign) people of Scotland seem to be quite happy living under the rule of the ogre from the South. What do we do about that? Imo, your approach could lead to serious civil unrest, if not a Civil war in Scotland, that is if I’m picking up on what you’re saying correctly.

  156. thomas says:

    Sky news reporting uk supreme court rejects uk government appeal to overturn scottish court decision to send unilateral revoking of article 50 to ECJ.

  157. Breeks says:

    hackalumpoff says:
    20 November, 2018 at 9:44 am
    UK Supreme REJECTS UK Gov appeal re Article 50 case.

    “……it follows that this court has no jurisdiction to hear an appeal.”

    Music to my ears.

    If the UK’s “Supreme” Court has no jurisdiction, then dearie me, I wonder who does…. 😉

  158. manandboy says:

    Understand this to appreciate better where we all stand.

    Half the electorate in England don’t care about the catastrophic consequences of voting to leave the European Union. Just as long as they leave.

    Half the electorate in Scotland don’t care about the consequences of staying IN the Union. Just as long as they stay.

  159. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…we’ll lose.”

    No we won’t.

    We’ll win.

  160. Petra says:

    @ hackalumpoff says at 9:44 am …. ”UK Supreme REJECTS UK Gov appeal re Article 50 case.”

    Brilliant news hackalumpoff. One down …. one to go.

  161. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks for that. The ruling also clearly lays out what it’s about, that it’s a preliminary request for the CJEU, but the final judgement will be back in the Court of Sessions.

    I daresay if the CJEU opinion is favourable, and the Court of Sessions ruling, the UK Gov will be back appalling (sic) to the UKSC.

  162. manandboy says:

    Since 69.1% of the Church of Scotland voted No to Independence, it might be time to either change their minds – or change their name.
    Only a thought.

  163. jfngw says:

    It’ fairly clear now the unionist campaign is going to be based on leaving the UK will be like leaving the EU but worse (they don’t explain why we are leaving the EU if it is so bad).

    So the two pronged approach is when there is the planned no deal they intend to blame it on the SNP. When the indy is called they then use the disaster of Brexit as being trivial to what awaits Scotland.

    We need some positive message to combat this. What is really needed when the referendum is called is a positive response from the EU to negate this propaganda, will they give it?

  164. Alba Laddie says:

    HYFUD – see your pretendy wee Supreme Court set up by Uncle Tony?

    As we say here in chilly Jocko land, it just “got its arse felt” by ermmm, itself, because as the judgement says it has “no jurisdiction” to hear the appeal to overturn the Scottish courts decision to send OUR revoking article 50 to the ECJ…

    Laugh? I nearly passed my fags round.

  165. jfngw says:

    Not seen the papers today (I don’t buy any so that is normal). But I heard rumours that yesterday David Mundell’s tea was not hot enough and if it is the same today he has threatened to resign. Possibly top of his daily todo list, what can I threaten to resign about today.

  166. hackalumpoff says:

    Just starting

    Evidence session on intergovernmental relations between Scotland and the UK. Committee Room 8, Palace of Westminster.

  167. Macart says:


    Pretty much. The only way people introduce stability, is to take charge of their politics and their politicians. To set the ground rules, the checks and balances, themselves and then monitor their public servants to make sure they remain public servants.

    In reality, it doesn’t ever stop. You cannot ever allow yourself disengage fully. The nanosecond you look away, take your eye off what’s happening? The nanosecond the tail starts wagging the dog? Well. They need only look out the window to see how that goes.


    Heh. Good catch.

  168. Terence callachan says:

    One thing is certain in Scotland, a Scottish independence referendum will take place once the final Brexit decision is known.
    There is no point in trying to predict what the final Brexit decision will be or when it will be because as we have seen already England is in turmoil they are fighting each other in the streets over Brexit and it is England that is in the driving seat of Brexit whatever shape or form it eventually takes.
    Scotland is having to wait and see , Scotland is having to say “what if this happens” “what if that happens” it’s unsatisfactory but it’s also deliberate, Englands Westminster cannot afford to lose control of Scotland do not underestimate how much England gains from controlling Scotland, if Scotland leaves it is very very likely that Northern Ireland would leave also within a few years maybe sooner and then Wales too.
    It’s not just control of the land and its people business and assets that England would lose if Scotland leaves, it is global political clout too so there is a lot more going on in Westminster than just Brexit at present.
    The Scottish independence question is not going away it never will now because a modern educated country like Scotland has a population that wants the human rights of self determination.
    British nationalists in Scotland who are actually Scottish and with the greatest respect I do not mean English people or people from EU countries and elsewhere who have no intention of making Scotland their permanent home, see themselves as seeking self determination as well because to them their country is the UK, yes I know that the UK is not one country but to these people and in their minds it is one country and they feel protected by it, they don’t fear living in an independent Scotland but they do feel that their importance and status will be depleted.
    British nationalists tend to have a fear of other nations attacking them ,they tend to give more support to the increase of armed forces and more support for the retention of nuclear weapons even if they are based just a few miles away from where they live, they fear an attack from another country such as Russia or China or even North Korea more than they fear the very nuclear weapons stored a few miles away from their home causing some catastrophic accident as has often happened around the world.
    Peacetime is what calms people ,continually celebrating past wars continually attacking other countries around the world heightens the feeling of being unsafe.
    Try telling a British nationalist any of this and you will likely be met with a refusal to listen .
    Once Scotland is independent we will have to work hard to avoid doing the same thing we will have to tone down all this warmongering behaviour if we are to help them.

  169. galamcennalath says:

    manandboy says:

    69.1% of the Church of Scotland voted No to Independence

    Probably has more to do with the type of individual. Older, conservative small c, maybe even big C. More rural than city maybe.

    You probably found Leave voting was higher among them.

    Also, many will see themselves as’British’.

    What is needed for them is our own version of project fear where they realise the status quo the love has gone. The UK does not look the good bet it did. And, Indy would be safer.

    I take your point. Scotland and Scottish should be a brand which tells you what’s in the tin.

  170. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    IF there is a snap GE, the SNP can go into it with a manifesto much as their one for the last GE BUT with the addition of something along the lines of…
    If pro-independence parties win the majority of Scottish seats in this election, then the largest of those parties will take that as a mandate to revoke The Treaty of Union, ending the United Kingdom and causing Scotland and England to return to being two independent kingdoms.

    I did type “along the lines of…”

    Onnyhoo, if the SNP were to return 45+ MPs as is currently being predicted, then Britnats could have no complaint – we just cite Maggie Thatcher’s infamous utterance.

  171. Ottomanboi says:

    It’s now independence or bust for our country. The National party needs to paint the picture of two futures. Scotland the pathetic, powerless appendage or Scotland the restored, sovereign state, its citizens in control. The choice is stark. Sink into irrelevance and oblivion or Swim towards independence, for your very life.

  172. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I WAS 71 on my last birthday. I was born at the height of the terrible winter of 1946-7; they had to dig away eight feet of snow to get the doctor in to deliver me. My late father was a member of the old Scottish Unionist Party, he voted Unionist, then Conservative all his life – until the last time he voted, when he gave his vote to the Labour candidate, because he was: “By a mile the best of a not-very impressive bunch.”

    He and I fell out when I started thinking for myself and decided to vote SNP, I have, ever since, voted SNP when I had the chance, and declined to vote when no SNP candidate was standing. I have three unfulfilled wishes:

    To see a Scotland rugby XV beat the All Blacks
    To see a Scotland football team back in a major finals
    and most-importantly: to see Scotland independent.

    I have agreed with Nicola Sturgeon’s tactics of allowing the worst Westminster government, of any hue, in my lifetime to get itself into a fankle, totally fuck-up and destroy Brexit. She has bent over backwards to try to persuade them to respect Scotland’s position – all in vain; Westminster cares not a jot about Scotland.

    But, we are reaching end game, we will, I believe, NEVER have a better chance than we currently do, to take advantage of a rudderless, leaderless rag-tag Westminster and break free.

    I am persuaded to allow her to wait until the Brexit vote in Parliament, but, if as I suspect we will be, we are no further forward, but, still mired in uncertainty – that will be the time to strike.

    With or without a Section 30 order, we should go for Indyref2 – SOON.

    I am also concerned that two of the most-intelligent of the pro-independence bloggers, Craig Murray and Peter A Bell have both, in the past couple of days, posted blogs in which they seriously question the SNP hierarchy’s readiness and willingness to go for it.

    Murray’s blog of this morning was, I feel, a particularly good one, which Nicola will ignore at her peril.

    I know, Scottish history is littered with cases where we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory – please, in this, perhaps our most-important battle with Westminster since 1314, let’s not add another chapter to this sorry list. Let’s get it done.

  173. Robert Louis says:

    Hahahaha, London’s pretendy ‘supreme’ court just told the UK gov to get tae f***, and that they cannot override the decision of Scotland’s REAL highest constitutional court – the court of session in Edinburgh.

    Might laugh about that all day.

  174. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…planned no deal they intend to blame it on the SNP.”

    They’ll try for sure but it’ll be mighty difficult to make it stick.


    Maybot: “No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.”

    Fluffy: “A ‘No Deal’ Brexit will be disastrous for Scotland.”

    See the utter contradiction there? Fluffy is effectively demanding the SNP vote for a ‘Bad Deal’ which his boss has already said would not be as good i.e. voting for a Bad Deal, according to Fluffy’s boss, would be even more disastrous for Scotland. So why should the SNP vote for that?

  175. Ken500 says:

    Labour fails to take down the Tories again. (By one vote?) Corbyn does not turn up. What a shower. What a complete and utter shambles. Westminster unionists are not fit to govern.

    The crooks at the Scotsman continue to lie, and lie having riped off folk. Lost £Millions.

    Most of them should be in jail.

  176. Breeks says:

    Petra says:
    20 November, 2018 at 9:47 am

    I don’t know if I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying Breeks? Are you saying that you don’t want the SNP to hold a referendum now? That Nicola Sturgeon / Mike Russell should just write to Theresa May…

    I’m not saying that just yet Petra, but I feel increasingly there is precious little substance in the threat of a referendum. Why aren’t we giving them BOTH barrels??? Democratic referendum (or ratification Plebiscite) in one barrel, and contractual breach of Treaty to terminate the Treaty of Union in the other barrel.

    I want to see what Westminster, and indeed the people England for that matter, actually do once they realises the game is up and they cannot win. Let them, (and our own Unionists) flounder in check before the check-mate. Just like Brexit, negotiation and reasoning is futile. Let’s just skip to the end, end the Union, and do it before England’s self harming Brexit poisons Scotland’s water holes.

    The UK’s Supreme Court has just acknowledged the boundary of its jurisdiction, a line in the sand which Scotland’s Court of Session had already crossed weeks ago as if it didn’t exist… In its way, that is literally inter-National recognition in law. The UK Supreme Court has just acknowledged it has no jurisdiction over Scotland’s highest court.

    Henceforth, how can the UK Supreme Court ever dispute that Scots Law is Sovereign and that it cannot be overruled by the highest court in the UK? Do the arithmetic, because you can be damn sure that Westminster will hush it up and keep us in the dark about the ramifications. Sadly, the Scottish Government seems disposed to do likewise.

    If we go down the avenue of democratic process, I very much fear we will cross the rubicon of Brexit actually happening before the democratic will to prevent it has taken adequate substance to prevent it. Once out the EU, even in agreed transition, it is the jurisdiction of the ECJ which is seriously undermined, and who knows (though we can guess) who will lose their franchise to vote in any post-Brexit election or referendum?

    To avoid waking up in that perpetually dark winter in Narnia, we have to win our battle, and do it decisively, BEFORE Brexit happens to us and while we still fall under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The ramifications of what the ECJ decides are binding while we are signed up, but open to interpretation and ambiguity once Theresa May has terminated their jurisdiction over UK affairs.. as she promises to do.

    We cannot afford to slip up, we cannot afford to lose, we cannot trust our fate to chance or the proclivities of a voting population made fickle and indecisive by years of propagandised colonial indoctrination.

    The Sovereignty, and that is what it is, which the ECJ will recognise in due course has to become, it absolutely must become, the Constitutional watershed which essentially dethrones Westminster and declares Scotland’s Government ascendant over Scotland’s affairs.

    I just want to hear our Scottish Government say the damned words. Speak the oath, then we can all relax. IndyRef2 is then consultative, and unconstitutional abdications of sovereign authority, such as voting NO, can be shepherded inside our own borders. Whatever we decide, our Constitutional Sovereignty is sacred.

  177. Dr Jim says:

    Hasd line British Nationalists will never switch their vote from NO to YES but they just might not vote at all next time so I try not to focus too much on support for a YES vote rising because I don’t think it will, much

    I focus more on opposition to YES falling, which it is, giving us the result we want

  178. Luigi says:

    Ottomanboi says:

    20 November, 2018 at 10:23 am

    It’s now independence or bust for our country.

    I like it, I really like it. Great slogan to campaign on (backed up with real facts). 🙂

    jfngw says:

    20 November, 2018 at 10:06 am

    We need some positive message to combat this.

    We need to be postivie AND negative, IMO. The BritNats are desperate and the campaign will get very dirty IMO. It’s fine to say “stay above it”, but we have to take the initiative and beat them with a stick. With Brexit there is lots to be scared about, we have to be honest with the lectorate. So, yes, be positive, with a vision, but not only positive. Carrot AND stick required this time, methinks. 🙂

  179. Luigi says:

    Apologies for tpyos. 🙂

  180. Breeks says:

    hackalumpoff says:
    20 November, 2018 at 10:16 am
    Just starting

    Evidence session on intergovernmental relations between Scotland and the UK. Committee Room 8, Palace of Westminster.

    Just gonna put the oven on for humble pie…. just a precaution at the moment.

  181. hackalumpoff says:

    Jolyon Maugham:

    Explanation of whether Article 50 is revocable by MPs

  182. Les Wilson says:

    Luigi says:

    We have all the facts on everything about this devious “Union” it is now the time to make things they have done, what they are still doing, to our population and our country clear to everyone. Then keep repeating it.

    At every interview radio or tv, we need to get that message across, as well as our social media, every pro Indy blog and anywhere else we can think of.

  183. Robert Peffers says:

    @sandy says: 20 November, 2018 at 3:14 am:

    ” … Has ” Sottish Labour” or “Scottish Conservative” been registered as a unique name? If not, why not get in there & register it.”

    Ah! You’re off on a tangent there sandy. When I say registered I do not mean as an on-lone URL. I mean registered as a United Kingdom Political Party.

    For example the Labour Party is registered just as the UK Labour Party with its HQ in London. There is no such official political party as Scottish Labour. They are not even a regional branch office of the London Labour Party. They are described, (by Labour), as an Accountancy Unit.

    They are NOT funded by the card carrying Labour Party members in Scotland or just by those trade union members from Scotland who pay the political levy. They are directly funded by London Labour. They have no autonomy.

    An example of how they are treated by London Labour HQ was when London sent a man up from London to Glasgow and he ordered the local Labour Party branches to deselect several sitting Glasgow Labour Party Councillors and replaced them with candidates selected, not by the local branches but by the London Head Office.

    There simply is no such thing as a Scottish Labour Party – it is London Labour in Scotland. All that bovine rectally sphinctered waste matter that the so called Scottish Labour Leader has decision making powers is just for the SMSM to brainwash people to believe there is an autonomous Scottish Labour Party. There isn’t.

  184. Terence callachan says:

    To Socrates macsporran…

    I agree with you.BUT…
    There is a trap , a trap that Englands Westminster would love Nicola sturgeon to fall into and that is “making a decision too soon without knowing all the facts”
    Any lawyer will tell you that this is a common error of the losing side.
    Nicola sturgeon has to wait until the final Brexit decision is made.
    It is very possible that another brexit referendum will happen, what then ?
    What do we in Scotland want most ,to stay in EU or Scottish independence ?
    We can have both but we would have to decide to have Scottish independence first and then decide to stay in EU ….WHY ?
    The reason we would have to have Scottish independence first if we want both is that if a second Brexit referendum takes place and the remain side win there will be civil war in England for a while but in Scotland many people who were prepared to switch from a NO to a YES vote for Scottish independence because of Brexit will switch back to a NO vote on Scottish independence if remain win .
    it is the threat of leaving the EU that is a clincher for Scottish independence.
    A no deal crash out of the EU would immediately lead to a Scottish independence referendum and the YES side would win.
    The Theresa May backstop deal would satisfy some of those in Scotland that switched from NO to YES enough so to switch them back to NO but would it be enough to ensure a NO win again ? it would be close.
    If a second Brexit referendum is called and leave win then there will be a Brexit crashout no deal which would lead to a Scottish independence referendum and the YES side would win.
    If the remain side won a second Brexit referendum there would be no Brexit at all it would be cancelled immediately ,there would be civil war in England but in Scotland all those who switched from NO to YES because of Brexit would switch back to NO.
    Then there is the additional possibility that a general election will be held and in England it will be presented as a second Brexit referendum but with Corbyn being a brexiteer who will campaign for the remain side ? the possibility of the Tories winning again is high and a Brexit no deal a possibility unless enough Tories call for remain.
    In Scotland there would be a campaign for remain by most and that would win and given a choice in a general election of voting for candidates who support Scottish independence or voting for candidates who stand on a platform of remain it is easy to see the remain candidates winning the day.
    A conundrum turning things on its head.
    A general election being called at a time when Brexit is unresolved spells danger for those who’s number one aim is Scottish independence.

  185. Les Wilson says:

    What I find strange about Murdo and his unionist like, is if there is no support for Indy2,why would they not want us to go ahead with it. If they are so confident they will beat us you would think they would be cheering us on!

    I think that attitude proves the reverse of what his mouth says.

  186. Craig Murray says:

    Regrettably people are not quite reading the Supreme Court right. They have ruled that the Court of Session has not yet made a ruling. The request for the preliminary opinion of the ECJ will inform the ruling on the substance of the Court of Session. Once that ruling has been made, the Supreme Court will indeed claim the right to overturn, if there is an appeal and they so decide, the Court of Session judgement.

    So they are not saying the UK Supreme Court does not sit above the Court of Session, they are just saying its too soon in the process. It is a victory, but only procedural one.

  187. Luigi says:

    Terence callachan says:

    20 November, 2018 at 11:06 am

    To Socrates macsporran…

    I agree with you.BUT…
    There is a trap , a trap that Englands Westminster would love Nicola sturgeon to fall into and that is “making a decision too soon without knowing all the facts”

    Indeed. If Nicola calls too soon, the BritNat media will play merry hell and call her an opporunist, not thinking about the country blah blah.

    This is simply neutralized by waiting a wee while longer until we know what is actually going to happen in March. Just a couple of hurdles to negotiate (and traps to avoid).

    Not much longer, folks, not much longer. 🙂

  188. Ken500 says:

    The elected Scottish Gov will know when to time. IndyRef2. When it can be won. Simple. It is up to the people to decide how they vote. Scotland has waited nearly 100 years. Another couple of years will not make much difference. With the SNP in Gov Scotland is doing much better.

    Demographically and democratically the odds are all in favour. To increase support. The elderly keel over and the young folk come on board. 50,000 die each year and 50,000 are born. Just hope it comes soon for most older IndyRef supporters. What a day. What an achievement. There will still be a lot of agreement to come forward before the realignment is complete. A few years. Scotland can still grow away, in the meantime.

    Just let the Tories collapse as they must do. If Labour ever get together. Scotland can have another IndyRef any time it wants to and gives a mandate. It is up to the people to do that. An IndyRef will happen when the people vote for it and it can be won. An exciting time to be alive. Despite the frustration and disappointment. Annoyance and anger at the Westminster behaviour. Scotland is still doing well under SNP Gov considering the shambles. The bonfire of the vanities at Westminster of the unionist absolute mess. It will soon be over in any case for the Tories.

    The London court rejects the Westminster application as they have to do. Or break the terms if the Act of Union. Scotland has a separate Legal system forever. To break these terms in sovereignty would breaks the terms of the Act of Union,

    The London Court has to agree the Scottish Law concerning Scotland. It can lead to Scottish citizens having their appeal to the ECJ refused. If the Scottish courts make that decision. To have to go through the middlemen (London court) That is not justice. Blair set it up to deny justice in Scotland. Blair and his meddling. He should be in jail.

    The Tories will not last much longer. The ‘opposition’ are no better. A GE will sort that out, if SNP/Independence support increases. Then will be the time to go for it. A GE and an IndyRef, concurrently might not be the best conclusion for victory. A few more months or even a year or so might be more practical. When it can be won. It still holds just convince another person and for goodness sake stop attacking the SNP. It is so counter productive, especially for Indy supporters.

    A GE should clear the air and gain support to endorse Independence support. It might be difficult to have an IndyRef at the same time as a GE. Dual resources and campaigning. Might be difficult. A GE then an IndyRef is more achievable. The IndyRef will come when it can be won. Simple.

  189. Luigi says:

    We do not want the BritNat media screaming:

    “We are note even finished negotiating a deal yet, and off the nats go with another Scottish independence referendum. How irresponsible!”, “How selfish!”

    Timing and perception are everything. We have to get these right.

  190. Cubby says:

    Wendy Alexander – remember her. Another London Labour in Scotland kidon Scottish leader. Another leader left in disgrace.

    I remember the female Alexander continually telling the SNP to call indyref1. What’s keeping you etc etc. Now she genuinely believed the polls that said no would win and would win handsomely so her position was logical and sensible.

    If the Britnats are so confident they will win Indyref2 why oh why are they desperate to stop a second indyref. They are not at all confident – Leonard is now saying over my dead body will there be another Independence referendum. Remember we have had over 4 years of the heaviest Britnat hate campaign against the Scotgov and they are still not confident enough to say bring it on.

    If we were in a democracy the Britnats would not own all the broadcasting and press outlets. The media situation in Scotland is just like in all repressive regimes e.g. Soviet Union, dictatorships all around the world.

  191. Luigi says:

    Ken500 says:

    20 November, 2018 at 11:17 am

    Demographically and democratically the odds are all in favour.

    Aye, but hopefully we won’t be depending on that! I’ve tried a few back-of-the-enevelope calculations (based on age-based voting in 2014, mortality rates, electorate turnover etc) and the best guestimate I can come up with is YES:NO parity in 2024 (ie. a full decade after 2014). At the mo, we are currently on 48% YES going by demographics alone, which seems about right, given that the campaign hasn’t started yet.

    Brexit changes everything of course, and it will all be to play for well before 2024 anyway, but don’t think that demographics alone will win it for us (not before 2024 anyway). 🙂

  192. galamcennalath says:

    Luigi says

    Timing and perception are everything. We have to get these right.

    Indeed. We will see the White of their eyes soon enough.

  193. gus1940 says:

    The current editor of The Scotsman claims to be politically neutral.

    If that be the case who decided to make today’s lead story the ludicrous opinion poll commissioned by those champions of political neutrality SIU and to compound the nonsense adds an article by failed Britnat Labour MP and SIU leading light (but a dim one) Pamela Nash who argues that if The UK didn’t exist it would have to be invented?

    Still – it will be catnip for the resident BTL loonies who will be wetting themselves over their keyboards.

  194. Cubby says:

    Luigi @ 11.20am

    You are right about timing etc. But you do not address the fact that the negotiations for the ongoing relationship have not started and this could go on for a very long time. The transition period could just keep getting extended.

    It is a blind Brexit that is being proposed by the Britnat bampots in London.

    So when is a good time? The Britnat media will always have something negative to say about independence – So what’s new.

    The FM will have to make a judgement call.

  195. Ken500 says:

    The ECJ has already supported democracy in Scotland. It was their decision on self govrrnance and self determination that led to Devolution. Holyrood. Although the unionists tried to give it little powers and changed the electoral system without a mandate. To try and keep control That was overcome. An SNP landslide in every election.

    The ECJ is hardly likeky to go back in those principles now, in light of the present situation. Scotland being forced out of the EU against it’s will. Any decision taken is likely to be in Scotland’s favour. To support democracy. The Westminster unionists are now going around in circles. Going around the houses awaiting defeat, The only possible outcome. The people in the UK now want to stay in the EU. The lies are dispersing.

    The EU campaign was always about the Tory party tearing itself to bit over who would be PM. Their personal ambition. It brought Thatcher down as well. Cameron is still there milking the public purse. The British Chinese consortium. HS2 and Hinkley Point the biggest waste of public funds. While people are being sanctioned and and starved by the Westminster unionist imbeciles.

  196. hackalumpoff says:

    Spanish Foreign Minister says Sanchez government would not block an independent Scotland, that seceded constitutionally, from re-joining the EU.

  197. Marcia says:

    The QC’s advising the UK Government would have known that their case would fail. An easy way to make money I suppose. The Tories should be surcharged.

  198. Meg merrilees says:

    According to the Independent the Supreme Court has rejected WM gov appeal trying to prevent Art 50 case going before Eu court of Justice. Game on!

  199. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Macart @ 09:03,

    Pedant’s corner: here it’s “normality”, not “normalcy”.

    The latter I believe was invented out of nowhere by the untutored US president Warren Harding (one of the worst of his kind, not merely in his abuse of language), and by dint of repetition came into US usage as a consequence. Ugh.

    I see WGD was using this ugly thing in one of his recent posts as well. I blame imperialist US-English spell checkers. (Sometimes I wish the Americans had settled on Spanish or somesuch, so they could have ruined that instead.)

  200. Ken500 says:

    The Scotsman has learnt nothing and will continue it’s demise. No one reads it in Scotland or gives credibility to it’s lies. It is not over yet for the JP but it could still go under. The pension fund is being systemically robbed illegally. A fire sale is still in the cards. The Scotsman losing. Still gong into liquidation. Any real estate and assets sold off capitulation. Someone – a consortium could still buy the Scotsman for a song, They might still get their fingers burnt. The MSM just can’t learn any lessons. Still heading out the door. Thank goodness for the internet. Thanks Rev Stu etc.

    The National is taking over from the Herald. Newsquest hedged their bets. Quite a good business decision. The main business income is printing material for private education worldwide. The Press is just an offshoot. Printing literature for political parties is more productive. Biased contracts influence the byline?

    There is little hope for the Scotsman. Printing lies day in day out. Some people never learn. No one will buy it or read it. A loss leader. It is just a question of time.

  201. Breastplate says:

    1. Scottish Independence is a threat to the U.K.
    I believe that to be a completely obvious and indisputable statement.

    2. The U.K. security services also know this and will try to prevent this with all means available to them.
    I believe this to be a logical train of thought and would genuinely like to hear from anyone who thinks otherwise and the reasons for disagreeing.

    3. I believe the Scottish Government won’t and can’t have any surprises in store for Westminster as the U.K. security services will be monitoring all discourse.
    Again, I would like to hear alternative views and reasons for such.

    If Scotland is to gain independence, we need proper control over who is eligible to vote, especially those using postal votes.

  202. Ken500 says:

    2% a year or more increase for Independence demographically. The elderly NO’s keel over. Remember there are more of them. The young ones come on board.

    Do not believe the Polls they will be being manipulated to influence the vote. They always are the piper calls the tune. The Pollsters are control by hedge fund money and illegal gerrymandering. They always get it wrong to line their pockets. Censured and fined so many times. They should be banned. Supposed to be in the Purdah period.

    It is more a question of an IndyRef and a GE at the same time. Leading to more confusion and calculation. It might be better to have a GE election, increased SNP/Independence majority. Then an IndyRef.

    Just unbelievable Corbyn did not turn up to vote. The Tories win by one vote. Absolutely crazy.

    There is no question the Tories are now a complete lame duck government. At this rate they will be voting themselves out of power to end the agony. All their personal ambitions in tatters. The lying greedy, psycho bastards. They are now just an embarrassment.

  203. Valerie says:


    Two bits of news putting a smile on my face. The Supreme Court telling Tories, get tae… and Spain still posturing over upsetting the Withdrawal Agreement. A bit of fash on fash action.

    Just like the DUP were warned, just as you are bought, you are just as likely to be sold.

    Lots of anger out on Twitter about Corbyn not showing forcrucial

  204. Valerie says:

    arrrgghh, pressed the wrong thing.

    …… not showing for crucial vote.

    Awaiting Labour implosion now.

  205. Breastplate says:

    @ Gus1940, I believe that the opinion polls have been weaponised against us as the ludicrous SIU survey shows.
    This is an attempt to mould public opinion instead of reflect it.

  206. galamcennalath says:

    Breastplate says:

    we need proper control over who is eligible to vote

    A Tory woman admitted to me that her son works and lives in London permanently, but has registered at his parents address in Scotland … “because his vote makes more difference here”.

    Also, I am certain some register at holiday homes, which is a no no,

    Such things probably aren’t common. But cheating is cheating and should be stamped on.

    You shouldn’t be on the Scottish electoral vote if you don’t have a Scottish tax code. The easy way to police is random sampling, investigate people who don’t appear quite right, and throw the legal book at those committing election fraud.

    As for postal votes. We are behind the curve on this. The Tories know turnout is higher among those with plastic votes. We need to persuade people to apply for postal votes.

  207. Luigi says:

    Ken500 says:

    20 November, 2018 at 12:00 pm

    2% a year or more increase for Independence demographically. The elderly NO’s keel over. Remember there are more of them. The young ones come on board

    Aye but remember it’s the differential that’s important. We are also losing old YES voters and some young people entering the electorate will vote NO. The differentials are in our favour long-term.

    The bad news is that demographically it will take at least until 2024 for 50:50.

    The good news is that Brexit (and other stuff) has changed everything – we won’t need to depend on demographics IMO.

  208. Ken500 says:

    Corbyn and McDonnell haven’t got a clue, especially in Scotland. They have now changed every principle they ever had to retain leadership. Corbyn stayed in a Party for over thirty years disagreeing with every major policy. To retain the privilege position instead of going and doing something useful. The winter of discontent. Three day week and candles. The dead not being buried and rubbish on the streets. Then the illegal wars causing the migration crisis and destroying the world economy.

    The Tory bankers crash. Thatcher’s tax havens. Unemployment and political unrest and violence, The unelected Rothschild Poll tax. On and on. Robbing Scotland of £Bilions. Keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Lockerbie and Dunblane kept secret for 100 years,

    The totally unnecessary ‘austerity’. Sanctioning and starving people. It costs more. Increasing the wealth gap. Picking on women, children the vulnerable. Totally unnecessary. The unionist Parties bloody cowards acting Illegally. Most of them should be in jail. Election fraud. Anti democratic breaking UN international Laws on humanity principles and sanctions,

    Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland.

  209. Robert Louis says:

    Luigi at 1120am,

    I understand your point, but here’s the reality, no matter when indyref is called, the massed ranks of British Nationalist media will line up to tell us why it is ‘bad, wrong, the wrong time, just adding confusion, deliberately designed to cause problems, an idiotic idea, the ‘SNP obsession with independence again’, and so on. Indeed, I could probably write all the articles myself, so contrived and predictable they would be.

    So, you see, their will never be ‘a right time’. It just is NOT going to happen. So, the FM and Scotgov need to make up their minds, are they wanting to protect Scotland from brexit, or are they not?

    Once brexit has actually happened, it will generally be seen as a done deal, and at that point trying to argue, that indy can protect Scotland from brexit will just sound pretty daft – even to me.

    And they need to stop going on and on about their ‘compromise’ of CU and SM. It was irrelevant two years ago, and it is irrelevant now, and continuing to carp on about it, just sound slightly pathetic. Westminster is not listening, and have repeatedly said so, in the clearest of terms.

  210. Breastplate says:

    On holiday a few years back, I met an English guy who told me his wife who was a McQueen had never set foot in Scotland until the referendum to vote, they were Unionists.
    I was more than a bit unhappy.

  211. When I read about the judgement on their Supreme Court I laughed that much that the tears ran down my legs

  212. Robert Louis says:

    Breastplate at 1151 am,

    As regards the security services, if I am correct isn’t their mission to protect and preserve the United Kingdom. So, I have always assumed they would be spying on the SNP. It is well known that special branch were monitoring the SNP from its inception.

    As regards communications, well, if the SNP leadership are using normal email or phones, then of course their calls will be monitored and listened to. I have never doubted that to be the case. I have always just assumed the SNP would be savvy enough to also realise that.

  213. Cubby says:

    Petra @6.48am

    The letter in your post is exactly why I have no compunction about calling the Britnats and the Britnats who post on Wings Monsters.

  214. Ken500 says:

    Every data concedes the elderly consistently not voting for Independence and the youngster willing by a large majority. Unbelievable in light of Thatcher etc but considered to be the case. There are more slightly more elderly demographically. They are also more likeky to vote, but not in a IndyRef? There is a high turnout,

    The vote will be won by those who never usually vote at all. The 30% who will turnout in an IndyRef. It still hold true convince one other person. It is won.

    The youngsters will carry the vote. Just as well it is their future. Elderly people not such risk takers or women. Psychologically. Nicola gets a lot of women on board. People like people who are like themselves. Improving the economy.

    The stars are aligning. 1.5million elderly. 1.5million young people. The rest in between. Demographically and democratically aligning. It just depends on the timing. By all accounts support is increasing. Not declining. Patience is a virtue. Just a little longer.

    Westminster unionists are tumbling down. No success in sight for them. No strong and stable soon. Just more shambolic performance governance. Every day a different crisis, it can’t go on much longer. They are a world laughing stock. Everyone is sick of them. The EU obviously want rid iof them as soon as possible, They would welcome Scotland with open arms. Scotland has been good EU citizens and appreciate the mutual benefits. No going down the Westminster unionist route to oblivion. Cutting off their nose to spite their face constantly.

  215. Valerie says:

    I’m in Norh Lanarkshire, I get visits quite regularly from the Electoral roll people. There’s usually a wee crowd of them hit the street.

    Don’t understand if Councils aren’t doing that.

  216. Breeks says:

    Craig Murray says:
    20 November, 2018 at 11:15 am
    Regrettably people are not quite reading the Supreme Court right….

    So they are not saying the UK Supreme Court does not sit above the Court of Session, they are just saying its too soon in the process. It is a victory, but only procedural one.

    Yes, noted Mr Murray. Guilty as charged I think, but at the same time, the big boost for me is that the procedural victory means the Court of Session seems to enjoy legal personality with the ECJ which Holyrood itself does not seem to enjoy with Michel Barnier and the Brexit negotiations. At least in these matters we have an Interlocutor, which is a big improvement on having none.

    At least they see us.

  217. Ken500 says:

    It is 50/50 now. The Polls are manipulated, They have been censured and fined many times for poor methology and data selection and protection. The electrol commission is now being investigated for duplicity and complicity. Hiding data and lying, The hedge funds were making £Million/Billions out of manipulated data. The name of the game. The Indy/EU/Ref/GE and in other matters. The crooks are running Westminster. In on the corruption of the electoral system. They are now being found out. Liars always get found out.

  218. Ottomanboi says:

    Agreed…carrot and stick. Things are shaping up for a nightmareish exit with the prospect of an ultra nationalist Anglocentric new order, even without Raab. That needs to be graphically stressed by independentists. The way the SG has been treated is a portent of more callous ‘disrepect’ to come.
    We are in a psychological and propaganda war for the very soul of this country. Lapdog Unionism or the thing every other nation on the planet takes for granted,

  219. wull says:

    Well said, Breeks, at 9.18. I hope someone in the right places is listening, and has the guts to act.

  220. Sharny Dubs says:

    Ok O/T and serious tin hat on, but…..

    We have a ruthless despotic regime who rely on keeping us “in our box” for their survival, who also happen to control and administer weapons of mass destruction within our boarders.

    If things do not go their way. What of a “nuclear incident” that only they can control or solve to scare folk and get us back on side?

    Thing about it. I did say tin hat. But I would not put anything past this shower of b*****ds, they have form.

  221. gus1940 says:

    Today’s Scotsman has now added its own on-line Indy poll.

    A few minutes ago when I voted it was running at YES 80%, NO 19%, Undecided 1%.

    Predictably the faithful BTL loonies are screaming that Indy supporters are casting multiple votes.

    Of course nobody believes that Britnat supporters would ever contemplate multiple voting – Aye Right.

  222. Sharny Dubs says:

    As for the SG and the SNP steering the ship.

    We elected them, they must have information that we canny be a party to for obvious reasons, like letting the guffies know what we are up to.

    We have to trust out government to do what is right for us and let them get on with it. We elected them on a mandate, trust them to do all in their power to deliver it.

    Ok suggest and discuss, but in the end we can hardly display all our cards on social media now can we.

  223. geeo says:

    So..The WM attempt to ask the UKSC for leave to appeal the Scottish court decision to send the case asking if Article 50 can be unilaterally revoked by PARLIAMENT without penalty, to the ECJ, has correctly been dismissed by the Supreme Court.

    2 parts to this.

    1. The supreme court want no part in addressing the Legal sovereignty of the Scots People in their court. Nor do they wish to be seen over ruling Scots Law, as either or both, breaches the Treaties of Union, ending them.

    2. Two Scottish SC judges heard the case on this. This is because of their knowledge of Scots Law and how it relates to Uk law.

    When making a ruling in this case, the Judges must consider the legal consequences.

    In this case, it will have been the clear subjugation of Scots Law and the legal effect on the treaty of Union, namely, breaching it, ending the treaty immediately.

    This of course, has a clear and direct correlation/impact on the Supreme Court judgement on the Holyrood EU Continuity Bill.

    Unless the SC want to open the constitutional pandora’s box, studiously avoided by this verdict, they MUST rule with the Scottish Government.

    And THAT causes another massive problem for WM.

    If they are scared to address Subjugation of Scots Law, then it seems unlikely they would want to address Scots People’s Sovereignty.

    So brexit for Scotland is a no-go, under threat of dissolution of the treaty of Union, on grounds of illegal subjugation of Said Scots People’s expressed sovereign wishes (62%Remain).

    Ruling with WM on the Continuity Bill case, also subjugates Scots Law on devolved matters, and the SC has just refused a WM appeal to try subjugate Scots Law over the Article 50 referral to the ECJ.

    It seems very unlikely the SC will rule against the Scotsgov in the upcoming verdict, as that effectively ends the treaty of Union and Scotland and England are legally reverted to pre may 1st 1707 status, ie: Independent Kingdoms.

    The fact this Article 50 case has been reported very low key, shows how devastating it is.

    Not just for being able to cancel Article 50 by WM vote, but also the future of their precious Union.

    Great day today.

  224. Undeadshaun says:

    @Robert Louis

    Signal is your friend for encrypted texts, phone calls.

    Edward snowdon recommended it and security experts have confirmed it’s unhackable. Nsa and gchq hate it.

  225. Fergus Green says:

    Ken500 20 November, 2018 at 12:47 pm

    ‘The electrol commission is now being investigated for duplicity and complicity’

    The Electoral Commission should certainly be investigated for duplicity and complicity, but this is the first I have heard of this.

    Can you (or anyone else) post a link to back this up?

  226. Ken500 says:

    It is just unbelievable the Tories are relying on Labour to get their illegal Brexit Bill through, They probably will against the wishes of the majority of people who want to remain in the EU.

    People are now afraid to tune in the ‘News’. People who are totally agin leaving the EU are getting suckered in. Before the total collapse begins.

  227. Luigi says:

    geeo says:

    20 November, 2018 at 12:59 pm

    If that’s the case, geeo (I’m still not 100% convinced), then the Scottish Government have played an absolute blinder.

    While most of us (and the BritNat media) have been focused on the timing of the next IndyRef, have Nicola and co been quietly dismantling the precious union in the courts? Genius?

    We will find out soon enough. 🙂

  228. Albert Herring says:


    I believe the Continuity Bill judgement was supposed to have been published in October. So the SC appears not to want to give any ruling, as it’ll be disastrous for WM either way.

    I reckon the SG should give them an ultimatum – say the end of this month, then if no ruling forthcoming, press ahead for royal approval.

    And if HMQ refuses?


  229. I’m sure Distorting Scotland’s headline tonight will be the rare sighting of a peregrine falcon in Castlemilk, or waiting times at A & E scandal.
    They’ve run out of royals to get married or pregnant.
    What England needs is a good wee war against a backward rogue state without a pot to p1ss in.

  230. mountain shadow says:

    Ken500 says:
    20 November, 2018 at 12:47 pm
    It is 50/50 now. The Polls are manipulated, They have been censured and fined many times for poor methology and data selection and protection.

    All polls are manipulated but I haven’t seen any evidence of wrong doing in this poll. This site uses these pollsters, are Stuart’s polls manipulated to suite our views on independence?

  231. Ken500 says:

    The electoral commission reps are being questioned in UK Parliament. The UK Parliamentary committees. Damian Collins chairman. SNP member questioning them. It is on the internet. Has been linked on Wings. Look it up. The electoral commission reps claim they are prevented to name the ‘black money’ sponsors by Westminster but claim it is not illegal. Arron Banks largest EU Leave contributor is now being investigated by the Police. Some electoral expense defrauders are up in Court. Will that be a lesson for the rest?

    May is in on the deceit. Members of Downing staff involved.

  232. gus1940 says:

    Earlier comments mentioned the business of people resident south of the border registering to vote in Scotland which of course is made easier with postal voting.

    The main weaknesses wide open to cheating are the above plus the fact that anybody can add their mates who live in different areas within Scotland or just add fictional individuals.

    I thought that it had been decided to include Ni Nos on each entry but have seen no sign of that having been carried out.

    Inclusion of NI Nos would link to Tax Codes, eliminate made up individual, duplicates and those not normally resident and taxed in Scotland including English students who can currently vote but neither have a home address in Scotland or have any interest in Scotland being independent.

    As it stands The Electoral Roll is wide open to abuse particularly as regards Postal Voting.

    While the problem in The US is people being refused the right to vote – the opposite obtains in Scotland with the system being wide open to include those not entitled to vote together with fictional individuals.

    It should be a matter of urgency to eliminate all the current loopholes – Come on The Electoral Commission – what’s keeping you!!!

  233. Liz g says:

    Luigi @ 1.14
    While I do remember Nicola sayin that she thought “all this would end up in the Courts”..
    And that yes… I think that she has indeed been quietly weakening the Union, by getting these issues before the Courts ( something the Scottish political class have never done before no matter how many breeches of the Treaty)
    I’m a bit of a skeptic here too.
    What I read was the SC are still holding for themselves the right to pontificate a judgement on this, when our Court of Session delivers the final Judgement.
    Whether the judgement is positive for us or not …. the Supremacy of the Court of Session is far from settled!!!!

  234. wull2 says:

    Last nights downtime question, Why do they keep going on about the date for Indepnsance.

    This mornings answer.

    They hope the people of Scotland would say that they want to stay part of the UK. Overtaking the people of Scotland’s voice they want to stay in the EU.

    Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

  235. Ken500 says:

    All polls are manipulated. The association has bern censored and banned many times. That is why they get it wrong. Then say ‘oh well, it’s a mistake. Rev Stu and the Bookies get it right be the correct analysis. They analyse the figures data correctly. The Bookies always make money. So do the Hedge Funds. Illegal declaration. Then shorts on the Stock markets. It only takes some minutes for them to manipulate. One donor donated £90Milion to Leave. Then made £300Million May and her associates stand to make £Billions from Brexit. The rest will suffer for it. Those who can least afford it. It depends if the Tories can get away with it. Looking more and more unlikely. Farague was at it. False declaration. Falsified by the media.

  236. robertknight says:

    Liz G….

    My reading of the decision of the UKSC is the same – it does not state clearly who has the last say on the final judgement.

    However, whilst the UK is a member of the EU, the CJEU trumps the UKSC.

  237. Iain mhor says:

    @mountain shadow 9:40am

    Chin up fella, its not as dark as it appears.
    The difference, is as ever around the ‘floating vote’
    At 45% for YES, you’re looking at adding circa 72,000 voters for parity at 47-47% (2% of potential votes) If as I discern from the long trending figures, 47% is already here, then the same 72,000 takes it to 49%.
    The crux of the matter is two-fold. The core vote and the floating or swing vote.
    Now in 2014 “NO” did not have a core vote of 55%, if it had, that means no floating or swing voters came over to them. Which means its core vote is less than that. How much less? Well that is speculation, but my speculation is 47%. In 2014 the core “Yes” vote was much less than that and took a late lift to around 43%+ it gained a further 1.5% of the floating vote by the final result.
    “NO took around 8% of the floating vote.

    Now, let us consider that perhaps “NO” is on shakier ground this time around and will not command the same 8%
    Just for argument let them drop 3%. That is not to say that 3% goes to YES, just that it does not automatically accrue to NO.
    And let us suggest that YES has not lost its 1.5% swing voters.
    Let us now take 45% + 1.5% = 46.5% for YES
    That leaves only 53.5% up for grabs for NO. Bear in mind we decided they lost 3% guaranteed swing votes – that is 50.5% which must include their core + their remaining guaranteed swing votes. Ergo their core is not and never was 50% or higher. It was and is less than 50%
    There is 3% of the floating vote up for grabs by either side.
    The total vote in 2014 was 3,623,344
    3% of that is 108,700 votes.

    Sounds a bit more manageable that figure doesn’t it?
    Now ask yourself if you think in percentages, if you think perhaps 3% more people are inclined to vote for Indy or Remaining in the EU or for whatever reason, not voting NO.
    Is that conceivable? Maybe. Is that why the shiters are up the Union camp.
    All knockabout fun and speculation naturally, but I find it helps to try and put a perspective on things.
    If you care to look yourself deeper into historical polls and crunch the numbers, you may well discover that “hmmm that mad eejit Iain’s figures are not far wrong…”
    Will we win?
    I think perhaps I’ll go with the 1st Duke of Wellington, Arthur Wellesly on that, it may be “…a damned nice thing — the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life”

  238. McBoxheid says:

    Luigi says:
    20 November, 2018 at 12:08 pm

    Ken500 says:

    20 November, 2018 at 12:00 pm

    2% a year or more increase for Independence demographically. The elderly NO’s keel over. Remember there are more of them. The young ones come on board

    Aye but remember it’s the differential that’s important. We are also losing old YES voters and some young people entering the electorate will vote NO. The differentials are in our favour long-term.

    The bad news is that demographically it will take at least until 2024 for 50:50.

    The good news is that Brexit (and other stuff) has changed everything – we won’t need to depend on demographics IMO.
    Don’t forget people change as they get older and tend to become more conservative. They don’t want change so much in advanced years. Obviously many will still want independence, but it won’t be a direct old for young.

  239. Liz g says:

    Robertknight @ 1.46
    Oh I hadn’t forgot Robert K ….and it will remain the case if we stay in the EU after Indy.
    But that will be by our Sovereign choice.
    I was just pointing out that the UK SC is still holding itself as a step in between Our Court of Session and the ECJ. Which in this instance is actually fair enough as the case is about Westminster itself and the problem is (for them) that Scotland’s Legal system that the Treaty preserves has a thing to say about it.
    Our main concern right now should be…. where the hell is our Continuity Bill judgement

  240. remo says:

    @Liz g

    I have a look on the net every day to see what has happened to the Scottish Continuity Bill case in the pretendy Supreme Court. (I was always astonished that Scots did not tell the SC to go and do something anatomically impossible when Uncle Tony set it up. It has nothing to do with Scots Law. The whole thing got right up my humph and it still does). However still no decision although it was meant to be in “the Autumn”. Is Autumn no done?

  241. geeo says:

    The lack of Continuity Bill verdict could be seen as damning evidence that aspects of the SC are controlled by WM gov.

    We were told October.

    I can see no other reason for a delay other than it is bad news for WM gov and they have instructed the SC to delay the verdict announcement for political reasons.

    If that is remotely accurate, then the SC loses all pretence of being impartial from the state on legal matters.

  242. Liz g says:

    geeo @ 2.52 & remo 2.51
    Yes totally agree….
    As usual when the so called “Supreme Court “ was constructed the Scottish politicians didn’t step up and challenge it!!
    And it has always bugged me too.
    Also the delay in this verdict is deeply suspicious, I don’t think that Nicola can light a fire under them.
    But I do think we should be doing it… how could Nicola call the Referendum without it anyway?
    Having our government overruled will be a big part of our campaign, so it will be useful to know if the “highest “ Court is going to be a part of overruling our elected Parliament.
    I think the Treaty might have a line or two about that too!!
    All those shouting… use the mandate & call the date…. should mibbi concentrate on…
    Where’s the Judgement??

  243. geeo says:

    Absolutely, lizg.

    I have emailed my MP and, for her legal expertise, Joanna Cherry, to ask if they have any idea as to when we can expect a verdict.

    Kept is simple, here is the text sent.


    I am writing to you to ask if you have any information on the timetable for delivery of the Supreme Court judgement on the Holyrood EU Continuity Bill case .

    There was an indication that the verdict would be in the Autumn (around October) but we are now slipping into the winter months and this verdict is politically huge, considering the potential for constitutional impact, both in regards to the EU withdrawal bill (and future trade deal) and the independence debate (should the verdict deliver a subjugation of Scots Law, contrary to the Treaty of Union. 

    There is a growing fustration about the lack of clarity on this critically important issue, and I would greatly appreciate it if there was any information available to you, in regards to it, if you are able to share it.

    If you cannot disclose any information you have, for legal reasons, i totally respect that of course. 



  244. yesindyref2 says:

    @Craig Murray
    Indeed. After the ECJ of the CJEU make their ruling, the it goes back to the Court of Sessions to make its final judgement. After that stage an appeal can be made against that final judgement, to the UKSCm by UK Gov (or anyone).


    1. Their first action will be, like now, to determine if they have jurisdiction, and it’s quite possible they haven’t, since the decision / opinion would have come from the ECJ, the currently superior court to them on some matters, namely anything to do with EU Law – like Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

    2. With the ECJ, that higher court, having made its opinion, why would the UKSC go to a different opinion?

    Yes, the UK Gov would be certain to try to enter an appeal, and it gets even more interesting then.

  245. yesindyref2 says:

    @Craig Murray
    I alwys forget somethi

    Not only that, the UKSC was able to dodge the real question, because there’s no final judgement so they can escape the appeal. Only when there’s a final judgement will they be able to determine if they have the right – or not. It was similar for the Millar appeal, they were able to rule on the basis of UK Law – which included an interpretation of the Scotland Act, again unde UK Law. No Scots Law was involved.

  246. Albert Herring says:

    Re. setting up of UKSC, Alex Salmond for one was beelin about it.

  247. Liz g says:

    geeo @ 3.30
    Oh well done you… good thinking..
    Please mind and keep us informed if you get a response..

  248. geeo says:

    Will do, lizg

  249. robertknight says:

    Just while we’re on the subject. (Footage can be linked to at the bottom of the page. If you skip to the close of business at the end of day two, things were utterly vague as to when a decision would be given. Quelle surprise…).

  250. robertknight says:

    I get the distinct impression that the UKSC will deliberately delay its judgement until after the Commons vote on The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill 2017–19, for if that Bill is passed and receives Royal Assent first, it will effectively trump The UK Withdrawal From The European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland) Bill.

    Holyrood cannot put forward for Royal Assent a Parliamentary Bill which runs contrary to elements of a pre-existing Act of the Westminster Parliament.

    In this case, whichever Bill receives Royal Assent first wins – which makes the decision of the UKSC a straightforward one if they can drag it out for long enough.

  251. Liz g says:

    robertknight @ 4.16
    True Robert K but they canny hing oan forever??
    At the very least it has to be before Brexit.
    It will be interesting to see how close they intended to take it….and can the ECJ be used to hurry them up?This judgement is after all time sensitive!!

    But Scottish Sovereignty and Westminster Sovereignty are and always have been incompatible,this is why they were using words like “very complex” during the case..
    And the real reason that for 300 odd year’s Westminster CANNOT write a Constitution!
    Nevertheless I still don’t think they will pick one to be the premier one….I don’t think they dare!!
    It’s a win win for indy though and I’d say we need the judgement and should start agitating for it!!
    We need to know if the highest court for the Union intends to stymie our democracy and attempt to place our Sovereignty in an inferior position to Westministers?
    So that we can decide if we are going to stand for that?

  252. Petra says:

    @ Socrates MacSporran says at 10:25 am …. ”I am also concerned that two of the most-intelligent of the pro-independence bloggers, Craig Murray and Peter A Bell have both, in the past couple of days, posted blogs in which they seriously question the SNP hierarchy’s readiness and willingness to go for it.”..

    Mr Murray and Mr Bell have been saying that Nicola Sturgeon should ”go for it”, one way or another, for many months now, SMS. In taking into account all that’s gone on (still going on), if Nicola had followed their advice we would have surely lost. What would be extremely helpful would be a rise in support for Independence and yet Mr Murray’s latest blog, like a number of his others, is if anything putting people off of voting for the SNP at all. With the SNP being the only effective tool that we have to acquire our Independence make of that what you will.

    Craig Murray: ”Now that Nicola Sturgeon is daily putting further and further excuses forward for not moving on Independence, I am inclined to fear that the comfortable fire around which Charles Stuart warmed himself during the Battle of Falkirk, is an apt analogy for the position of the SNP Establishment, who are doing very nicely, thank you, out of their position within the UK, and show no inclination whatsoever to stop warming their toes at the Establishment hearth and move out into the storm and bullets.”..


    @ Breeks says at 10:48 am …. ”I’m not saying that just yet Petra, but I feel increasingly there is precious little substance in the threat of a referendum. Why aren’t we giving them BOTH barrels??? Democratic referendum (or ratification Plebiscite) in one barrel, and contractual breach of Treaty to terminate the Treaty of Union in the other barrel.”..

    Thanks for the response Breeks and glad to see that you’re not being totally dismissive of an Indyref2.

    We don’t know what aces Nicola has up her sleeve Breeks. Over and above doing the day job, and dealing with Brexit, she / SNP (and others) have thrown a couple of curve balls at Westminster (Continuity Bill and ECJ A50) which may prove to be extremely beneficial, constitutionally, in the long run.

    Nicola has stated on a number of occasions that when the Brexit deal or not becomes clearer she’ll give the Scots the opportunity to make their choice, the Union or Independence. She’s also seen this through to the end by constantly demanding that we (Scotland / the UK) stay in the CU and SM knowing that Westminster doesn’t give a fig for what she has to say, however the people have been listening to her and that’s what counts. When the chips are down and people have to make choices her honesty and credibility versus the clowns at Westminster could make a massive difference to the outcome. One way or another it won’t be long now, thank God.

  253. Petra says:

    @ Liz g says at 4:54 pm …. ”But Scottish Sovereignty and Westminster Sovereignty are and always have been incompatible, this is why they were using words like “very complex” during the case..

    And the real reason that for 300 odd year’s Westminster CANNOT write a Constitution!”…

    The reason for no written Constitution. Spot on Liz.

  254. sandy says:

    OT to Robert Peffers.

    As it was a quiet moment at that time of the morning, it was with some triviality that I posted the item on registered names/phrases.
    I was quite aware of the content of your reply, welcome as it was.
    My point was that if these names/phrases were registered with, say, a Scottish company, what would be the legality of it’s use by these hideous English parties? Could they be prosecuted for fraud/deception bearing in mind the seriousness of the current situation & the future of our country?

  255. robertknight says:

    Not sure if you saw my last Liz before you posted yours.

    Westminster can shoot Holyrood’s fox by parking the Scotland Bill in the long-stay car park which is the UKSC, then after appropriate delay it becomes a simple case of sorry Scotland, but things have moved on, therefore your Bill is incompetent and incompatible with existing (ink still wet on the vellum) Westminster legislation. Next case M’Lud…

  256. Thepnr says:


    I think those that are agitating for an immediate Indyref2 are going to be sorely disappointed. I can’t see any way in which there will be one before the 29th March.

    For starters I don’t believe that it’s an absolute certainty that we will be out of the EU on that date, there’s plenty wriggle room there yet that will keep us in such as the possibility to withdraw the Article 50 notice.

    Throw in the potential for a General Election or a second EU referendum and it becomes impossible to call a second Independence referendum now.

    I certainly don’t speak for Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP but does anyone else seriously believe that whe would call for Indyref2 when there is so much still to be resolved around the current Brexit mess?

    I for one don’t, I also know that if none of that happens and there is a deal agreed in parliament in support of May then we go into the transition until at least Dec 2020.

    That’s another 21 months after the end of March and it could be extended for up to another 2 years according to Barnier. So nearly 4 more years when we will still be following all the rules and regulations of the EU. Free movement still applying, no tariffs on goods and no near trade deals with other countries.

    Scotland effectively for another 4 years will still be in the EU just that the UK no longer has a say in the EU parliament since it has no MEP’s.

    I wouldn’t see past an Independent Scotland remaining in the EU with their blessing as long as we voted for it while still in the transition phase.

    Truth be told, anything might happen in the intern and for that reason we need to bide our time. Timing really is everything and will be the difference between winning and losing.

  257. wull says:

    Craig Murray at 11.15 is certainly correct. The UK Supreme Court’s desisting from intervening at the moment is a matter of procedure – and timing. ‘Now is not the time’, unfortunately, is a correct statement on their part, procedurally speaking. Which means they can always revive it later. It is also, I suppose – and this is more sinister – a political move as well. Especially if, in fact, as we must surely suspect, the UKSC is not quite as independent from executive power as supreme – or any other – courts ought to be.

    If the UKSC were to intervene prematurely, when it has no right to intervene, it would precipitate a very serious constitutional crisis. The judges who sit on that UKSC must be aware of that fact, and a constitutional crisis is surely the last thing they want to set in motion – at this particular point in time.

    Maybe later. But not now! Not least because if they do it now they will lose.

    Hence – ‘Now is not the time’ for such an intervention. But they can envisage a time, later on, which will be the moment that they (or their masters, though judges are not supposed to have any master other than justice) are perhaps hoping for.

    With the prezsent ruling, their coming intervention has simply been postponed. That is all. What they have done need not mean, and shouldn’t be interpreted as their having washed their hands of the whole affair. They are not saying it’s not their business. They are simply biding their time …

    However, when Joanne Cherry made her intervention about this matter in the House of Commons a few days ago, she based herself – if I remember rightly – on another principle altogether. She said quite clearly that the UKSC had no jurisdiction, no legal capacity to overturn a UNANIMOUS decision of the Court of Session. She knows her stuff, does Joanne Cherry QC, so i presume she was absolutely correct on that point.

    The UKSC’s terms of reference, its powers nd caapacities must be defined, in law, in such a way that they CANNOT overturn, or even reconsider, a unanimous ruling of the Court of Session in Edinburgh. Which implies, all the same that, legally speaking, they can hear an appeal in a case that was decided by the Court of Session on a majority verdict.

    However, in the present case, it was unanimously that the Court of Session judges had decided to send the matter to the European Court. This already ruled out any intervention in the matter by the UKSC, at least for the time being – at this stage in the process.

    I have not read what exactly the UKSC said today, but it sounds as if they made no mention of the key point brought up by Joanne Cherry in the House of Commons. What they acknowledged, it seems, was only a different, relatively minor procedural point. If that is the case, it does not augur well for what happens next. In fact, it suggests that the UKSC has not ruled out attempting to overrule even a unanimous Court of Session decision at some future (maybe near-future) point in time.

    For instance, when the case comes back to the Court of Session from the European Court – as it will. If the C of S, that same Court of Session rules UNANIMOUSLY that Article 50 can be overturned, that should be the matter settled. But please don’t be surprised if, when that happens, another (obviously groundless) appeal will be made to the UKSC against the decision of the Court of Session’s unanimous ruling and – as happend this time, even though the appeal was obviously invalid – the UKSC will blithely announce that it is going to ‘consider’ the matter!

    Which means at the moment, by not explicitly confirming Joanne Cherry’s point, the UKSC (and – who knows? – those who stand behind it, for instance the Westminster executive) are simply keeping its powder dry.

    Indeed, even if the UKSC were eventually to uphold such a unanimous decision by the Court of Session, I can’t imagine that they will be in any great hurry about it. And time is of the essence here. As the UKSC knows very well. To have an effect, any revocation of Article 50 on the part of the Westminster parliament would have to take place before the clock ticks down to March 29, at which point we will in any case automatically exit from the EU anyway.

    At that point, whether or not Article 50 could have been revoked becomes purely academic. The matter will have been overtaken by Old Father Time. The whole thing becomes a past possibility which no longer obtains, and doesn’t matter any more anyway.

    It is pretty easy to imagine the UKSC running the clock down on it. Wasting time the way football teams do in the last few minutes of the match, when they carry the ball to the corner flag and try to keep it in that irrelevant space for as long as they can, until the referee blows the final whistle.

    Here is the scenario: On November 27, or so, the European Court will rule that Article 50 can be revoked. (Since the retired judge who originally drew up Article 50 has already indicated that such is the case, it seems unlikely that the European Court will find differently). At that point, it will go back to the Court of Session in Edinburgh, which will then, almost certainly, make the same ruling, probably (almost certainly) unanimously.

    Although, if it is a split decision, that will play into the hands of those who will want to appeal the matter to the UKSC. They will, in purely legal terms, be within their rights to do so (the way, I presume, the law now stands).

    But let’s imagine that the Court of Session rules unanimously that Article 50 can be revoked. The Westminster government will then make an appeal (or arrange for someone else to make an appeal) the matter to the UKSC. If the UKSC had acknowledged Joanne Cherry’s key point today, it would have been self-evident that there are no grounds for such an appeal. End of story: the matter being indisputable, the UKSC wouldn’t even be able to consider it.

    The fact that (I presume) they did not acknowledge Joanne Cherry’s point may be taken as an indicator of what the UKSC (and the Westminster government) intends to do after the Court of Session has ruled unanimously in favour of the plain truth that Article 50 CAN, indeed, be revoked. They will wait for the appeal to come, which it surely will – (this Westminster government is not going to be overruled by some paltry court in Edinburgh – Who do they think they are, these Scots? And what has their pretendy supposedly independent legal system got to say to us who rule the country?) – and then they (the UKSC) will solemnly announce that they are going to ‘consider’ that appeal.

    Just as they did this time round. Even though it is perfectly clear and well known, as Joanne Cherry pointed out, that they (the UKSC) have no legal right to hear any such appeal. And if they have no right to hear it, they have surely no right even to ‘consider’ hearing it. But that did not prevent them from doing so this time round – and it won’t prevent them from doing precisely the same thing, once again, the next time.

    The appelants – the Westminster government – will then expect the UKSC to ‘consider’ the Court of Session’s unanimous judgement and, they hope, overturn it. If UKSC judges do turn out to have a bit of a conscience on the matter so that – heaven forbid! – they find themselves unable to do the illegal overturning, they will at least be expected to procrastinate. Which means they will keep on ‘considering the matter’ until the clock is sufficiently run down, so that their judgement on the matter is not made until March 29 is upon us, and it has become impossible to revoke Article 50 anyway.

    (‘Overturning’ might be out of the question for the learned counsel, or gentlemen, or whatever they call themselves who sit on the UKSC, since they are surely too well-fed and too old to be doing such somersaults at their time of life. ‘Procrastination’, on the other hand, might be just what they are good at.)

    So, with the delay tactics working perfectly, there will be no time left to get an Act revoking Article 50 through the Westminster Parliament anyway – no time even for anyone to table it, probably. The March 29 gong will strike with no such Act having seen the light of day, and the Brexiteers will be home and dry. Or so they think.

    I think am confident that the European Court will decide unanimously that Article 50 can be revoked, on or around Nov 27, and that the Court of Session will do the same. Moreover, knowing the urgency of the matter, the Edinburgh court will hand down its judgement as soon as it possibly can, without further delay. Then the Westminster-led obfuscation will start, doing everything to muddy the waters, confuse the public and prevent the Court of Session’s judgement from having any practical effect on the political process.

    All aided and abetted by the supine Brexiteer press, in all its supposedly different hues. Every effort will be made to obscure and bury the plain legal principle which Joanne Cherry brought so clearly to everyone’s attention.

    I could even see the UKSC judges waiting till March 29 itself, before handing down their so-called ‘judgement’. And, on that very day, or the day after, it might not be too far-fetched to see them initiating a legal and indeed a political revolution by judging that the UKSC CAN overrule some at least (if not all) of the Court of Session’s verdicts, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE UNANIMOUS. Especially, so they might argue, when the cases concerned touch on matters which are in any way ‘reserved’ to Westminster, including – of course – whatever matters they (the UKSC) decides are to be deemed ‘constitutional’.

    ‘To Westminster’ because, in the eyes of the UKSC, in the NEW UK which will just have come into existence, Westminster will be the supreme parliament of the UK, having no authority above it, and the UKSC will be its supreme court – likewise having no authority above it. Because the European court of Justice will, on that day, have been got rid of entirely. Which is all part of the plan in the creation of this completely new thing, the NEW UK, which has just come into existence.

    That NEW UK being born into an unsuspecting world – which does not yet know what has hit it! Even its own citizens – sorry, wrong word – (no more citizenship – that was a horrible European thing, which we once had, but now it’s been vaporised and it’s gone) – even its own subjects (got it right this time) won’t know – yet – what’s hit them.

    Such a judgement overruling the court of Session even in its unanimous verdicts would, I suppose, contravene the Act of Union of 1707 (and indeed subsequent law, including the very law that set up the UKSC). But … it should be clear by now … that is precisely where the whole Brexit thing is heading. The New UK which the Brexiteers are trying to create, by fair means and foul,will not be based on the rule of law (ostensibly only) but, increasingly, on Executive Power. It will NOT the old or indeed the actual UK, which did have a legal framework on which it was based. It will be something quite different altogether.

    Actually, it will simply be England. And not the England that now is, or the England of yore. The NEW UK will be an England into which ALL the other ‘little bits’ and ‘scraps’ of the internal Empire she always dreamed of having (and never quite managed to have) will have been incorporated subsumed into her. By ‘little bits’ and ‘scraps’ I mean, of course, Wales, Northern Ireland and even Scotland.

    This is the 4-nation UK in which only one nation counts, and all the others are more like the ‘reservations’ in the USA or Canada than nations in the real sense of the term. Even Scotland. This the phrase so beloved of Teresa May – ‘the 4-nation Union’ – that no one in the SNP and no self-respecting Scot (not even one who genuinely believes in the Union) should ever use.

    That NEW UK, which is in the process of being brought to birth, is due to to make its appearance in this world on March 29, 2019. This NEW UK is how the myopic, historically ignorant and law-denying Little Englander Brexiteers – the people running Westminster at the moment, on both the Tory and the Labour benches (it is in fact a joint effort) – actually see Britain. By which they really mean England. And it is how they see us too – ‘your’ reservation belongs to us, not to you.

    They call themselves Unionists but they actually know nothing of the Union. They act as if they can ignore what it is, how it came about and the legal framework which it establishes and on which it rests. It is not that they do not know these things, but rather that they pretend not to know them. They couldn’t possibly be as ignorant as they seem to be: and if they are, their ignorance is deliberate and culpable.

    Can you imagine politicians anywhere else in the Western world being so pig ignorant of the constitutional realities of the country they seek to or actually do rule?

    They are intent not just on subverting the old Union, which created the UK, not just on tinkering with it or making some modifications. No – nothing so innocuous or benign – they are intent instead on ABOLISHING THAT OLD UNION (the OLD UK) and REPLACING IT with something else altogether.

    Constitutionally these so-called self-proclaimed ‘Unionist politicians’ are NOT the small ‘c’ conservatives we take them for: they are REVOLUTIONARIES. And RADICAL ones. When they talked about ‘our Union’, even in 2014 – as in ‘we love our Union’ – the emphasis was on the ‘our’, not on the Union. And certainly not on the Union as it truly was and really is – even in specifically legal terms.

    These REVOLUTIONARIES who – like all revolutionaries – ultimately care not a fig about the rule of law … these REVOLUTIONARIES want to tear out ALL the old roots of the OLD UK and replace them with ENTIRELY NEW roots … Roots that will be entirely of their own invention, in order to create the kind of NEW UK that suits THEIR purposes … The NEW UK which THEY want and which THEY arbitrarily (and unconstitutionally) DECIDE upon. This will be the new ‘triumph of the will’ – of THEIR will, overriding all notion of popular sovereignty (even while seeming / pretending to support it when it suits their purposes, as with the way they have manipulated and used the Brexit vote, to their own advantage) and undermining all genuinely democratic institutions (of which there are in any case gey few).

    They want to conserve NOTHING of the old Union: they are hell bent on overturning ALL of it. In order to create an entirely NEW thing in their own, very horrible, image.

    Jeremy May, Teresa Corbyn, the Johnson Brothers, Ruth n’ her lot, Kezia’s successor (that unmemorable nonentity whose name I can never remember – is it Murdo Leonard) n’ his lot, the whole arm-in-arm lot of them – that is what they are about. They are all the same. They are not Unionists. They are anti-Union REVOLUTIONARY Brexiteers. And the Union they are ‘anti-‘ is not just the European one – it’s the OLD UK one as well. In fact, it’s anything that holds them back – anything that prevents THEIR will from TRIUMPHING.

    While calling themselves Unionists, they are actually ripping up the Union in front of our very eyes. And immediately the Buccaneers running the Bad Ship HMS Brexit set sail on the 29th of March, you may be very sure that they will set to on their Project anti-Union (actually anti-OLD-UK Union) project without a qualm, and with a will.

    And with – the word that’s coming falls nicely, and is 100% correct – a vengeance.

    There will be no mercy shown for those who oppose the REVOLUTION. In particular none whatsoever for what they call ‘Scottish separatists’… From 29th March onward – you wait and see – that phrase about bayoneting the wounded will be back to the fore and it won’t just be a word. Because nothing must stand in the way of their project to incorporate and subsume Scotland into England. That is an absolutely essential feature of the REVOLUTION. The 29th March is the birth-day of the New UK, the day that England – not John Major’s England of warm beer (ugh!) and primrose hedges but the England of the Brexit Bully Boys – ‘takes back control’.

    A ‘control’ that England never had, by the way, and does not legally possess. But now there will be nothing to stop her. Nothing to impede her – no European court, no ‘Justice’ other than her own, no obstacle in her path, no one to challenge her … No one, in short to keep the worst of out-of-control Engerland – Angerland? – under any kind of control whatsoever.

    And, to come back to UK Supreme Court and the coming assault on Scotland, it will suit the politicians very well if the judges do their dirty work for them. For instance, it will do fine, would be just up the politicians’ (wicked) wicket, if the UKSC overruled the Court of Session on a matter over which the UKSC just happens to be legally powerless. Over which it has no jurisdiction. And who cares what Joanne Cherry says, anyway? Who’s she … ? Nasty separatist – not part of OUR Union, the one WE love, because WE make it to be whatever WE want it to be. And the ‘rule of law’, you say – What’s that, especially when WE are the ones who MAKE the law?

    Of course, it will all be dressed up in subtle legal niceties, to make it seem as if it’s lawful, when it’s not. And it will make precedent. Therein lies the key: do something illegal – then call it ‘precedent’ to prepare the ground for the next step. It will look so small and insignificant at first blush. The change I mean. But give it time, and even a small deviation soon becomes a huge one. Make a tiny hole, a mere chink at first, then watch it transform itself into an unbridgeable chasm.

    There will be no going back to the OLD UK, in which Scotland once did have its genuine and clearly defined part. All that will have gone. Washed overboard in the tsunami that is already upon us. Erased.

    Day 1 of Project New UK will be March 29, and it will go immediately into full swing. It will move straight into top gear, an unstoppable juggernaut from that day onward, smashing up the old and putting in place the new. And objective number one will be to obliterate Scotland once and for all (they hope). Incorporated and subsumed the aim will be to reduce Scotland to naught.

    It will just be another bit of England – for the New UK is England Uber Alles. From Day 1 – 29 March.

    Which is why we are suddenly catapulted backward to the end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th Century. Back to where we started. This project NEW UK unfolding before us is simply a revival of the project of Edward Longshanks Plantagenet. Edward I of England has bolted his long-locked stable and ridden out into our midst once again. And even into the very midst of Scotland itself. There he is, yet again in full flow, unleashed upon us like a horseman of the Apocalypse.

    This is also why Scotland really has to wake up. Do we – do the SNP? – do any of us – really know what is going to hit us on March 29th, and from then on. And in rapid, quick fire. We had better be ready – we can’t dither around any more.

    It’s also why we need to convince fellow Scots who are sincere Unionists – there are some, you know, they are not all villains, far from it – that their Union, the Union of yore, the one they grew up with and respect, is in fact over.

    Sadly, indeed – there is need to sympathise with them, for whom it must be like the passing of an old friend. One who has been with them all their life.

    They are losing – without yet realising it, they have already lost – a loved-one. We would be callous indeed not to give them our sympathy, on what for them must be a very sad occasion – the passing of the OLD Union, the OLD UK. The one they knew and loved.

    The bereaved won’t listen to us if we are not decent enough to offer some sympathy. If we do, we might be able to help them see with new eyes the reality of the situation we are – all of us – now in. Whatever the good was that they saw in the OLD UK Union – and why shouldn’t we acknowledge it, if it affords them some comfort – that good cannot be retained by remaining in the New UK that is about to hit us. Insofar as these are decent persons – and many are – who hold decent values, the only way to preserve these values is in an independent Scotland.

    I am not talking about the kind of Unionist who is not convertible. But about those that could be – maybe 20 or 25% of those who voted ‘No’ in 2014.

    And we shouldn’t deceive ourselves into thinking that those opposed to our independence will ever play fair – they won’t. Just ask Edward Longshanks! He’ll split his sides laughing at you, for ever having had such a daft idea. ‘All’s fair in love an war.’

    Or, in modern terms, ‘we tried love-bombing you the last time, and enough of you fell for it. But if you don’t like our love-bombs any longer … This time round, we’ll just bomb you instead. That’s all. Take it or leave it.’ Which does sound like the Long-Shanked Edward: ‘Scotland is ours, and you had better believe it’ says that mighty king, ‘not yours!’

    That, fundamentally, is what it comes down to you.

    ‘Whatever gave you the impression it was yours, silly boy …? It’s our because we say it’s ours, and we want it. Because it’s worth a fortune … and we kings march the earth, we pirates sail the seas, not for glory – but for gold!’

    Wake up Scotland. You are in mortal danger! Get a move on!

  258. Breeks says:

    Standing ovation Wull. Best, though perhaps scariest, thing I’ve read in a long time.

  259. wull says:

    Thanks Breeks. I think you and I seem on the same wave length most if not all of the time.

    Apologies for all the ‘typos’ in the above post. I didn’t check it before I sent it – but thought the Rev. must by now be posting a new post. So, I had better get a move on myself, and send what I had to say, even without checking it, so that at least someone might see it. I’m glad you did – and, again, thanks for the encouragement. Even though I don’t normally like to scare people – including myself.

    But what’s happening does seem to me to get more and more sinister, almost by the day. Most folk seem to be completely unaware of it, but Scotland really is in a fight for her survival. We really do underestimate what we are up against in the form of the British state and its establishment. And such underestimation is very much at our own peril.

    Cheers Breeks – I have some other things I need to do and must stop now, and switch off for the night. Thanks again.

  260. Sarah says:

    @wull – have you sent this to SNP HQ, Nicola, any SNP MSP/MP? I think it should be seen by influential people.

  261. wull says:

    You will laugh at me, Sarah, but I am not sure I know how to do that. I am basically e-illiterate. There is no copyright on any of my posts: anyone who wants to can send them wherever or to whoever she or he thinks appropriate. By all means go ahead: I would be pleased if you did. And – if it helps – you have my full permission to send it in your own name, if that would make it more influential. Though you can use ‘Wull’ too, if you prefer that – even ‘Auld Wull’ if you want! The ‘auld’ being at least increasingly the case – all anyone has to do to gain that particular badge of honour (if such it be! Which I doubt …) is … stick around long enough. Which isn’t automatic, or even in our own gift …

  262. Rock says:

    Craig Murray says:
    20 November, 2018 at 11:15 am

    “Regrettably people are not quite reading the Supreme Court right. They have ruled that the Court of Session has not yet made a ruling. The request for the preliminary opinion of the ECJ will inform the ruling on the substance of the Court of Session. Once that ruling has been made, the Supreme Court will indeed claim the right to overturn, if there is an appeal and they so decide, the Court of Session judgement.

    So they are not saying the UK Supreme Court does not sit above the Court of Session, they are just saying its too soon in the process. It is a victory, but only procedural one.”

    Rock (8th November – “The news that could be”):

    If anything, Scotland’s pretendy “Supreme Court” is doing the dirty work in the name of the UK establishment.

    It would never, ever unambigously make a ruling which would harm Westminster’s stranglehold on Scotland.

    If any “pleb” needs reminding, the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.”

  263. Golfnut says:

    Yes spot on I think.
    Just 2 observations.
    1 The UKSC intervention is a breach of EU law and
    Practice, it can only work if it cannot be appealed to
    the ECJ.

    2 The revolution is predicated on a No Deal. That the
    UKSC is privy to that information,that the UK
    will crash out of EU on the 29th of March.

  264. Sarah says:

    @wull – I’m not laughing as I’m e-lliterate too! [and auld!]. Perhaps Breeks can help?

  265. robertknight says:


    I’m going to plagiarise your work…

    The appelants – the Westminster government – will then expect the UKSC to ‘consider’ the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland) Bill and, they hope, determine it to be outside the devolved legislative powers of the Scottish Parliament. If UKSC judges do turn out to have a bit of a conscience on the matter so that – heaven forbid! – they find themselves unable to do so, they will at least be expected to procrastinate. Which means they will keep on ‘considering the matter’ until the clock is sufficiently run down, so that their judgement on the matter is not made until the Commons has had its meaningful vote on Theresa May’s Brexit Deal which, if passed, will supercede the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland) Bill anyway.

  266. Thepnr says:


    “I think am confident that the European Court will decide unanimously that Article 50 can be revoked, on or around Nov 27, and that the Court of Session will do the same.”

    I’m afraid that I have to point out that you are wrong here, the earliest that we might hear their ruling is before Xmas as some believe.

    I’ve posted before that even “expedited” cases take on average 4 months to rule on and if not “expedited” then expect to wait on average 16 months for a ruling.

    Putting all that aside, it is my view that the UKSC have no say whatsoever on what the ECJ decide on European law. The ECJ are the ultimate arbiters on this and if they find that Article 50 can be unilaterally withdrawn by the UK.

    That is the end of it, that becomes Europeon law and the UKSC will have no influence at all in their decision.

  267. wull says:

    Talking of laughing Sarah – not to mention being auld – do you remember the Bob Monkhouse joke?

    Which one? you might well say.

    The only one that ever made me laugh. I thought almost all his jokes were at best weak, and at worst painful … They never worked for me, though maybe if I saw them now I might think differently … But this one’s a cracker. Especially for someone I thought of as a basically lousy and very unfunny comic. I found it spot on, right from the first time I saw him do it …

    You have to imagine his tone of voice, and see his Bob Monkhouse facial expressions he goes through it … Though it’s only two lines … ! With right good pause in the middle. Here goes …

    ‘When I said I wanted to be a comedian … they just laughed at me.’

    Face becomes pretty screwed up – in disgust, at ‘them’ …


    Face begins to brighten up … and becomes almost gleeful:

    ‘They’re not laughing now!’

  268. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Wull –

    Your input here – I always find myself reading the whole lot. Many don’t, coz, like me, they abhor long posts but, when I see your name as contributor, I read the lot and am seldom disappointed.

    Sending it onward, to those who matter…

    Get email addresses here:-


  269. Sarah says:

    @Wull – I laughed out loud – it’s the way you tell them! Unlike Bob M who seemed a nice bloke but embarrassing to watch as a “comic”.

    @BDTT – I think wull’s problem will be how he gets his btl onto an email. Is that it, wull?

  270. Thepnr says:

    In other words the UK Supreme Court cannot overrule a decision of the European Court of Justice on a matter of European law.

    That’s one of the main reasons that Brexiteers want out of Europe.

  271. wull says:

    It’s not really plagiarism, Robert of robertknight @ 10.02 pm. If I have understood you correctly, it’s improvement. With more detail, and no doubt more accuracy than I was able to provide. Which is absolutely fine.

    Thank you Thepnr @ 10.04. I am no lawyer, claim no expertise in court matters, and can happily bow to your greater knowledge and experience of these things.

    In case there was a misunderstanding, I didn’t mean that the Court of Session would pick up the matter again immediately, on November 27, or whenever the European Court ruled. Only that they would do it as quickly as they could – and it seems to me that that would indeed mean by or before Christmas, as you seem to indicate might well happen.

    The European Court is taking two or three weeks over it (maybe more?). If the Court of Session did the same, that would still be very fast, I suppose, by the normal standards of legal procedure.

    Anyway – we’ll just have to wait and see what happens. I too would have thought that the ruling of the European Court on the matter would finish the whole affair, without any court anywhere else in the EU having anything more to say about it. But I read somewhere that that was not the expected scenario, and that the matter would come back to the Court of Session.

    I do hope you are right, however. And that what I read won’t happen.

    Now, I really must stop for tonight, and get out of here, as I expected to do a few posts ago.

  272. Thepnr says:


    I’m no expert either and like you can only go by what I have read of other more knowledgeable people have to say.

    Also like you I have read that the decision of the ECJ will go back to the court of session as that was the whole point in asking them for an opinion.

    Common sense tells me that that Court of Session will agree with the ECJ and there is no reason whatsoever to doubt that if it came in front of the Supreme Court because of an appeal by the UK government that they wouldn’t feel the same was as the other two courts.

    It’s all hypothetical anyway and as important as it is we will just have to wait on the decision whenever that might be and then wait to see if there are appeals or not.

    My own personal view, none of this matters much as regards Independence, We will have a vote and hopefully win that vote, all we need is for all this “fog” to be lifted.

    That’s why Nicola sturgeon is waiting and that’s why we are waiting. Actually I’m willing to trust her to get it right, basically there is no other choice and I will continue to support Independence for Scotland whether she gets it right or wrong.

  273. geeo says:

    All this chit chat of how the SNP should be scared of WM, is shown as hollow, when you consider the way that Scotsgov have completely outplayed them in recent months, by laying impregnable constitutional traps, the Continuity Bill being the best of them.

  274. Kangaroo says:

    A50 Case

    The ECJ could rule A50
    a) CANNOT be revoked unilaterally,
    b) CAN be revoked unilaterally, or
    c) CAN be revoked unilaterally, but with consequences

    c) is the same as UK requesting revocation and EU saying here are the New Rules. This would again mean they have to go back to Parliament with new option.

    If either a) or b) is the result then the only appeal would be to the ECJ.
    If it is a) then J Maugham would be the one to invoke an appeal. I don’t think this would happen as it would be too late amongst other reasons.
    If it is b) then Westminster may appeal, another act of bastardry. Hasn’t stopped them to date though.

    Politically, however the cat would be out of the bag and MPs would be aware of the situation and as there is a Parliamentary majority for Remain this would pour more fuel on the flames.

  275. Kangaroo says:


    What can I say, brilliant assessment if the real situation we are faced with. If further proof be needed one only need remember they are pushing through a New Act of Union in the House of Lords at the moment.

  276. Breeks says:

    Geeo says:
    20 November, 2018 at 11:40 pm
    All this chit chat of how the SNP should be scared of WM, is shown as hollow, when you consider the way that Scotsgov have completely outplayed them in recent months, by laying impregnable constitutional traps, the Continuity Bill being the best of them.

    My anxiety stems from the fact the SNP’s brilliance is reactive and defensive. Just once I’d like to see one of these traps snap shut, allowing Scotland to capture ground on the offence. The Scottish Government might very well win awards for its diligence, thoroughness, and scrupulous contingency planning, but where does that actually leave us when we are handcuffed to a psychotic lunatic ten times our size who is having a psychotic episode and has convinced himself that jumping off the Brexit Bridge is the best way to silence the voices in its head? We are already side by side on the ledge and he’s still not listening to us.

    We NEED a pair of Constitutional bolt cutters to secure autonomous sovereign recognition and legal personality, and the longer we delay, the more danger we are in. Snip the chain of the handcuffs first, make safe OUR interests, and then we can sit down and try to talk some reason into our would-be Brexit bridge jumper.

    As Wull points out above, 29th March is the date when the big fella jumps, and if we’re still huckled together, we go too. Brexit isn’t just Membership of the Club, Brexit is THE watershed which means the abandonment of due principle and established legal frameworks which share common international understanding, to be replaced entirely with the arbitrary diktats of a Westminster Regime, high as a kite on colonial exceptionalism, which arbitrarily rewrites any law which it finds objectionable or disruptive to its aims. How ironic that May cites Henry VIII legislation, when Henry VIII set up his own church to circumvent the constraints imposed on him by the established Roman Catholic order.

    The Westminster junta sees Brexit as Constitutional slum clearance to rid itself of all impediments to its Imperial townscape grand designs, just like Hitler’s plan for Germania or Napoleon’s reconstruction of Paris. Scotland’s Constitutional entitlements will meet the bulldozer.

    We now have 128 days to save ourselves from this, just a llittle over 3000 hours. Is wait and see really the best strategy we can come up with?

    I would like to read Wull’s post again, and tell myself that it’s just the worst case scenario, but what is scary about it is that “worst case scenario” is exactly the trajectory we are on, to the letter.

  277. Sharny Dubs says:


    holy sh1t! never has anyone put my fears so stark on paper.

    scary in the extreme, but it’s what we face.


  278. Fred says:

    @ Wull, good posts kid!

  279. geeo says:


    When you say we need to be out by March 29th 2019, you will get no argument from me, i share the same thought process as you do re: dissolution as an option, a preferred option more and more.

    However, Nicola has ALWAYS been explicitly clear on timing.

    After the deal (or no deal) is known, but BEFORE Brexit day (march 29th 2019).

    When things start to move, they will move fast in my opinion.

    We have a legitimate justification to hold a protective vote at Holyrood to dissolve the union in advance of an affirmation plebiscite later, should WM gov try to obfuscate when Nicola requests a Section 30 order to hold a referendum at a time of SCOTLANDS choosing (before March 29th).

    There is talk of WM kicking the can as far down the road as January, as an absolute latest delay.

    If organising an indyref before march cannot be achieved, then we have 2 options available.

    1. We demand that if the Indyref happens after march 29th, EU nationals voting rights are protected, so they can still vote.

    2. We move to dissolve the Union at Holyrood.

    We hold the best cards here, rather than fear whats coming, embrace it.

    We cannot lose the Continuity Bill case, however it goes.

    SC rules with WM: Then the SC has set aside both the treaties of Union AND the terms of the Devolution (Scotland) Act.

    Thats game over for the Union.

    SC rules with Scotsgov: game over for Scottish brexit against our will, as Scots Law will have been upheld, and by extension, our sovereignty. (affirming protected aspects will include the protections afforded to Scots People’s Sovereignty as well as Scots Law).

    With all 111 returning powers coming to Holyrood, the WM/EU trade deal becomes rather fraught, as Holyrood will have full control over fishing in Scottish waters, for example.

    So, i am not concerned at all, Timing is indeed, everything.

    We are still on the original timing, so no worries here.

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