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The dust of the sawdust

Posted on November 20, 2018 by

We’re so far beyond mere “scraping the barrel” now.

Unhappy with polls based on asking the simple and clear question “Should Scotland be an independent country?”, and which have been stubbornly refusing to show any movement against independence, our dear old pals at Scotland In Union recently commissioned one of their own seeking to muddy the waters.

Their brainwave was to try to confuse respondents by tangling up the usual indyref responses (firmly and consistently set in people’s minds over the last seven years as “Yes” and “No”) with the responses associated with the EU referendum (“Remain” and “Leave”), in the hope that Scots – who of course are heavily in favour of Remain – would be fooled and/or brainwashed into saying something different.

And it very very slightly worked, right up to the point where it fell apart.

Because under the Scotsman’s sensationalist banner headline, the fog began to clear and a rather less dramatic reality could be seen to take shape.

Presented with the actual real situation – namely that the UK is leaving the EU – the vote narrowed to within margin-of-error levels compared to what most polls get from the normal question. And when asked to consider what’s most likely to happen – leaving the EU without a deal, the numbers become pretty much a dead heat, even with the comically skewed and confusing question.

Despite having stacked the odds as much as she could and still come up with such thin gruel, SIU’s uber-staunch low-watt chief exec Pamela Nash got over-excited and said something REALLY dim.

And the reason that that’s a pretty thick thing to say even by Nash’s standards is that we already know (and have known for ages) what Scotland’s answer to that proposal would be if it was ever asked.

So it’s desperate stuff from SIU, further inflated misleadingly by the even more desperate Scotsman in an attempt to distract attention from the shady dealings it’s been involved in this week.

Or in the case of former Labour MP Nash, to distract from her party’s dismal failure to defeat the Tories last night over a key child-poverty vote in the Commons that they could and should have won.

Or indeed Labour’s mystifying failure to have tabled a motion of no confidence in the Tory government now that it’s lost the backing of the DUP and no longer commands a majority, thereby bringing about the general election that Labour keep saying is the answer to everything.

So as squirrels go, SIU’s loaded poll is a pretty big one. As news, it’s a big fat dud.

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    1. 20 11 18 13:56

      The dust of the sawdust | speymouth

    268 to “The dust of the sawdust”

    1. Fraser A Reid says:

      and I just wanted to tweet u about the 60% thing at the top too….so much bullshit….

    2. Mik Johnstone says:

      they’re getting a wee bit fidgety are they no? The westminster “throw as many lies as we can and hope something sticks…. ” scenario …. or as we call it in Scotland, Same Sh*t, Different Day… NEXT ….

    3. Ottomanboi says:

      Given the febrile state of things this is worth a read.
      Some action…PLEASE. The troops are getting restless.

    4. jfngw says:

      It’s not really a newspaper is it. It’s a unionist propaganda sheet, pretty much like the rest of the MSM in Scotland, and the journalists demand we support it.

    5. Ahundredthidiot says:


      stay your hand

      calm heads and cold hearts win wars

      the angry boxer loses – take your pick

      Leave it to NS

    6. Arbroath1320 says:

      Looks like SiU are going really deep into squeaky bum time whilst sitting on a rocky seat about to collapse under the weight of their own shite here! 😀

    7. Adrian B says:

      They will be handing out section 30 orders like sweets then…
      as they will be keen to secure that second ‘No Scotland’ vote.

    8. Muscleguy says:

      If they are shameless enough to fix this poll so blatantly I’m getting twitchy over what they might try on referendum night when faced with the stark reality of losing.

      We may need RT to document actual vote rigging instead of their hamfisted attempts to imply it last time.

    9. Auld Rock says:

      I had to laugh at the bit of ‘inventing the UK’ so I made a quick call to my cousin in Ireland and asked him what his answer would be if invited to join the UK and be ruled by Westminster? I almost got the answer but the lines between Cork and Shetland melted but I did catch, “NO WAY”. Think that sums it up but I did think of asking a Norwegian friend the same question about joining Sweden then thought better of it, LOL.

    10. Dan Huil says:

      It’s the last deceitful breaths from a dying,lying rag. Put this anti-Scottish britnat propaganda sheet out of its misery. Keep boycotting the britnat media.

    11. mogabee says:


      It’s just the most amazing sight as we watch in awe at the useless numpties dashing aboot like angry bees trapped in a sweet tin…

      Noisy, mad-as-hell and can’t do a damn thing aboot it.:D

      Soz..just..cannot…stop..fecking…laughing 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

    12. Luigi says:

      Arbroath1320 says:

      20 November, 2018 at 1:51 pm

      Looks like SiU are going really deep into squeaky bum time whilst sitting on a rocky seat about to collapse under the weight of their own shite here!

      That’s the funny hilarious thing about the BritNats:

      They ALWAYS blink first. 🙂

    13. Dr Jim says:

      I thought some of that lot would have been arrested by now because of their involvement in Funny Munny

      Ooh just like the Scotsman Funnily Munnily enough

      Definitely time for Fudderalism man again

      Anybody noticed how the media are all suddenly admiring Theresa May’s grit tenacity and dogged determination today, the media seem to find that trait admirable even though she’s totally wrong, just like Mrs Thatcher apparently

      Adolph Hitler was wrong and nobody admired him except…oh aye right enough

    14. David says:

      The poll figures for voters aged 18 + (67% leave) and voters aged 16+ (60% leave) don’t add up.
      There is absolutely no way there are enough 16 and 17 year olds to cause the total result to swing by 7% from 67% to 60%.
      Is this an error by the Scotsman journalist, or by the polling company?

    15. Thepnr says:

      As well as the loaded question, there’s also something decidedly iffy in this story of the results when it comes to 16/17 year olds in the poll. First we’re told:

      “if a referendum were held now, 60% of Scottish voters aged 16 and over would chose to stay in the UK and just 40% would choose to leave, once the dont knows are removed”

      Just putting some imaginary numbers to this, so lets say there were 1000 respondents excluding don’t knows, 600 say they would vote remain and 400 would vote leave. That’s straightforward enough giving 60% v 40%.

      Then next the article tells us:

      “Among voters aged 18 and over the margin is even wider, with 67% voting to remain and just 33% choosing to leave, once again after don’t knows are removed.”

      To get from one set of results to the other you remove the results for 16/17 year olds. Assume that all 16/17 year olds would have voted to leave (Yes) well you would need 100 of them in the poll. Leaving the original 600 still voting remain and now just 300 voting leave, giving 67% v 33%.

      Hmmm, what am I missing? I don’t think 16/17 year olds make up 10% of the electorate, more like 2-3% and I don’t think all of them would vote the same way.

      I smell some very smelly stuff, I will have to wait and see what James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop makes of it all.

    16. Macart says:

      They really, REALLY, don’t give a shit, do they?

      Their system of government, their party politics and their meeja are literally willing to watch us all drown in their omnishambles. They’re way beyond contempt at this point.

      People are desperate and suffering right now, or maybe the recent UN report wasn’t enough of a fucking heads up for them. A LOT more people are going to find themselves in the same position regardless of the shade of Brexit t’boot. It’s going to be THAT bad.

      Yet these self serving, self seeking, empathy free voids are still insistent that they and their system have done such a bang up job for everyone. If this shitshow didn’t exist we’d have to invent it? REALLY?

      We’d have to invent a place and a system of government that legislates against its own people for personal advantage? That sends its own people into debt and desperation? That uses and abuses its own citizens and grades them according to who is and isn’t acceptable on any grounds they feel like making up?

      That’s the reality of the UK today and no. No, I really don’t think most people would want to invent that.

      Can’t be said often enough in my book. Westminster system of government and the UK’s media. People need look no further when the poop hits the fan.

    17. Thepnr says:



    18. Arbroath1320 says:

      Luigi says:
      20 November, 2018 at 2:03 pm
      Arbroath1320 says:

      20 November, 2018 at 1:51 pm

      Looks like SiU are going really deep into squeaky bum time whilst sitting on a rocky seat about to collapse under the weight of their own shite here!

      That’s the funny hilarious thing about the BritNats:

      They ALWAYS blink first. ?

      I’m pretty certain there is a cure (medical) for this blinking condition that appears to be “blighting” SiU Luigi. 😀

    19. Millsy says:

      You can tell that the Union is on its last legs by the number of times that the Indy ref. gets mentioned – by the unionists !
      They are whistling in the dark !

    20. msean says:

      Is it just me,or is there,like clockwork,a poll that tells us we don’t want independence every time a poll tells us that we might?

      Panic polls. That’s what I call them. 🙂

    21. David says:

      It’s been bugging me since I saw it. How could such a mistake end up on the Scotsman’s front page – don’t they check their output any more?

    22. robert alexander harrison says:

      I had one argument on the national website with a britnat Michael macgeedy trying to say it was a survation poll sure they was paid money to do the poll but it took another yesser to get him to admit it was the siu poll the fact they are believing the siu shows to me how cornered they are.

    23. All their phoney polls are like that old Scots saying if your auntie had balls she would be your uncle

    24. Thepnr says:

      Why have none of the Wings polls ever made the front page of the Scotsman? I know headline results might have been reported but I don’t think ever on the front page.

      Anyway it shows how organisations like SiU and the Scotsman try to use polls to influence opinion, we can’t put a lot of faith in them unfortunately it seems.

      I have for a long time wished there was a way of managing a poll of our own, there are enough of us throughout Scotland’s 32 local authority areas to get a representative sample which could actually be trusted to be a true reflection of opinion on Scotland.

      Our own polling organisation would be nice, we could call it something like “Scotland’s Opinion” and do our own regular surveys to be published here and on Scot Goes Pop.

      We need an expert to organise it, I wonder if Prof. Curtice would volunteer, nah on second thoughts, probably not a good idea 🙂

    25. Frank Gillougley says:

      What jfngw says:
      20 November, 2018 at 1:35 pm

      It’s not really a newspaper is it.
      It’s a unionist propaganda sheet, pretty much like the rest of the MSM in Scotland.

      And so on.

    26. Graeme Chesser says:

      As well as the misleading answer choices, the question asked was very long and confusing, probably intentionally, so that respondents would not bother reading it.

    27. Corrado Mella says:

      Oh, is the Scotsman still a thing?


    28. McBoxheid says:

      Les Wilson says:
      20 November, 2018 at 2:21 pm

      I will just leave this link here,
      I wish you hadn’t.
      What is being said is Britain is cheesy, Britain is shallow, Britain is dodgy and Britain welcomes dodgy businessmen. But the biggest thing it says is Britain is England.

      What has changed?

      Is Rolls Royce even British?

    29. remo says:

      Forewarning – I am going to be pedantic, nit-picking and bitchy here. Pamela Nash’s grammar seems to leave a lot to be desired. This copied from a tweet ostensibly from her.

      Again, not true @StewartMcDonald . This poll was professionally ran by @Survation and the questions were crystal clear and in line with the Electoral Commission’s last recommendations on referendum questions

      I am fairly sure that some of the batshit crazy SiU and green ink brigade will find this distasteful too.

    30. robertknight says:

      Copies of ‘The Hootsmon’ should be given free to every cat owner in Scotland, along with a litter tray in which to place it. That’d help their distribution figures no end.

    31. Frank Waring says:

      Westminster MPs will _never_ now agree to a Referendum about anything — whatever the cost in abuse, etc, piled on their heads in consequence. Scots will get independence if and only if they demand it. If they wait to be asked —- well, they will never be asked.
      It is not a good sign that the opinion polls show so little (to put it mildly) sign of the Scots making an unstoppable demand for independence.
      If the SNP does not set the country on fire, I don’t think anyone else can.

    32. Bob Mack says:

      Doesn’t pay to play poker with Nicola. I’d play with SIU, because they are a dead giveaway. I’d haapily go all in on these figures being accurate.

    33. Greannach says:

      Pamela Nash was a Labour MP (allegedly) and is now Chief Executive (fnarr fnarr) of a Tory astroturf group. Par for the Labour course, I suppose.

    34. Proud Cybernat says:


      So, when we finally have the so-called ‘Meaningful Vote’ and Treeza-doll’s flush is busted and a No-Deal, Defcon Lalldy, hard as phuk Brexit is upon us, the FM will have her Brexshit ‘clarity’.

      At that point the FM demands that Treeza-babes responds to her S30 request and that, if no response is forthcoming by X date, then the ScotGov will take matters into its own hands to protect its citizens from the UK’s Brexit knacker-clacker and to ensure we keep our place within the EU, as is our collective will.

      So, if the FM cannot get WM to agree a 2nd IndyRef then it will simply have to be done through the ScotParl. And no need to wait until the next Scottish Elections either.

      A new Scottish Parliamentary Election can be forced but it requires the FM to resign. Now IF a new FM cannot be agreed/appointed within 28 days (and it won’t because the Greens/SNP have the majority and will vote against any BritNat replacement) then the Presiding Officer must call a new Scottish Election (see Scotland Act 1998, sections 3 and 46).

      And THIS SE will become Scotland’s de-facto IndyRef2 with the SNP standing on a platform of full independence should Independence parties return a majority of MSPs (and possibly though I don’t think absolutely essential, a majority of the popular vote).

      The FM plants the ball right in Treeza-hon’s court. Your call, Treeza-doll. You can issue the S30 or we’re doing it OUR WAY.

    35. Colin Alexander says:

      Intit sweet to see Nicola aw sooky sooky with Jeremy C. New best pals, for as long as Nicola plays at BritNat politics instead of fighting for Scottish independence from BritNat rule.

      As for Labour no tabling a motion of no confidence. Was there something stopping the SNP from doing that?

      It would be poetic justice if the SNP tabled the motion that toppled the Tory Govt after years of false accusations blaming an SNP no confidence motion for ushering in the Thatcher years.

    36. frogesque says:

      O/t but important

      UK Government fails to stop Scottish court case seeking answers on reversing Brexit

      Britain’s Supreme Court on Tuesday rejected an application from the British government to try to stop Europe’s top court from examining the case.

      Scottish politicians who are opposed to Britain exiting the European Union want the European Court of Justice (ECJ) to clarify whether London can withdraw its notification to leave without permission from the EU’s other member states.

    37. The way I see it is, we should never ever underestimate the desperate tactics and lies- no matter how ridiculous they are to us – that will be deployed over the coming months from the British nationalists.

      We saw during the 2014 referendum when Brown threatened pensioners with the loss of their pensions.

      So the SIU will be working on the premise, that if they con sufficient numbers of people in Scotland to believe these lies and distortions they are peddling to defeat a future indyref2 referendum

      Then those British nationalists of the SIU will consider job done.

    38. geeo says:

      Someone mentions how desperate the British Nationalists are becoming, then right on cue……they arrive on here posting desperate stuff !

      Actually hilarious ..

    39. Frank Gillougley says:

      If UK didn’t exist, we’d need to invent it –

      To make the obvious point, I’m not so sure at all whether a paraphrasing of Voltaire’s aphorism, Si Dieu n’existait pas, il faudrait l’inventer, (If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him) was really an intelligent choice of paraphrasing by ms Pamela Nash.

      Firstly to compare the notion of ‘God’ with the UK is by ANY test or opinion, at best risible to say the least, not to mention blasphemous, at worst to some.

      But the meaning of the maxim itself, as a basis of her tweetbite, is of course deeply ironic and wholly misguided (as all unionist utterances are) in that it can obviously be argued that what Voltaire was meaning in his time was that ‘God’ is invented to rule over the weak, to maintain order and create a set of rules that needs to be followed in the name of God, whereby we call the set of rules, religion, and we refer to the controller of those as God.

      To rule over the masses, the powerful and strong needed Gods. In Plato’s Republic, you will find the concept of the “Noble Lie”, that which is told to the masses of people who believe it for its unifying effects on the community. It could be religion, but it could also be a threat of a common enemy, or idea (nationalism) that would result in the solidifying of a larger mass. Plato’s point was that a “Noble Lie” was an invaluable tool for governments to employ to maintain order and stability, and that the breakdown of such solidarity was the cause for great states to eventually crumble.

      So ther ye’s go. Complete and utter bollocks. But what wouldya expect?

      – Life’s ironic int it? Fell on mah nose and damn near skintit!

    40. Dr Jim says:

      Pamela Nash doesn’t know her *ran* from her *run* and the Troll doesn’t understand the word *Troll*

    41. Nissa says:

      Widny wipe ma a.. wae this rag!

    42. Cubby says:

      The Scotsman – the zombie newspaper stalking Scotland. We need the team from The Walking Dead to put it out of its misery.

    43. Cubby says:

      Who let the dogs out- will someone close that cage door the Britnats have got loose again.

    44. Colin Alexander says:

      Aren’t the SNP wonderful, trying to save the UK from Brexit ruin. Trying to keep the UK in the EU or Single Market and customs union.

      So we can have a re-run of 2014 where

      NO = the UK is the no-change, safer option
      YES = A vote for indy Scotland out of the EU and Single Market and customs union and so we would need to re-apply.

      I never thought I’d see the day when the Tories are doing all they can to make a YES vote the best choice but, the SNP are the people trying to stop them.

    45. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Frank Waring at 3.11

      A Scottish referendum is not in the gift of Westminster.A Section 30 agreement between the Scottish and English governments is a different thing.

    46. wull2 says:

      Last nights downtime question, Why do they keep going on about the date for Indepnsance.

      This mornings answer.

      They hope the people of Scotland would say that they want to stay part of the UK. Overtaking the people of Scotland’s voice they want to stay in the EU.

      Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

    47. galamcennalath says:

      Haven’t read all the comments but perhaps the swivel eyed end of the BritNat spectrum imagine they can force the IndyRef2 question to be answered with Remain or Leave because, as Rev Stu says, this would confuse.

      Equally possible, of course, would be to frame IndyRef2 as something like (based on EURef) …

      Should Scotland remain a member of the EU as an independent country or leave the EU with the rest of the UK?


      Remain in the European Union with independence

      Leave the European Union with the rest of the UK

      SiU won’t have thought about that one! But we wouldn’t. We stick with the simplicity of Yes or No to Indy.

    48. Philip Maughan says:

      ‘If the UK didn’t exist we’d need to invent it’ is actually quite an interesting proposition. I doubt that many people, even staunch unionists would design UK2 on the current model but rather look for something much more federal or akin to the EU in its structures and voting. So seriously asking the question might help Unionists to understand the many flaws in the current arrangement.

    49. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May says her solution for Brexit is the only solution and it’s final

      Well! did that come naturally or was that choice of words written for her

    50. Skyeman says:

      Whenever I see the initials SiU , It conjours up the words skiddies in underpants. Quite appropriate now given the comments about squeaky bum time.

    51. mike cassidy says:

      You just know somebody at Troll House is waking up Rock and shouting

      The numbers! the numbers!

    52. galamcennalath says:

      Re Scotsman’s role in this fiasco. If there was any vestige of political credibility left for that rag, then it’s gone. That is a thoroughly disgusting piece of blatant propaganda designed to spread disinformation and to confuse.

      Does show BritNattery are absolutely shiting it. It looks probable Nicola will fire the starting gun if May’s deal is voted through parliament. It might not work out that way, but the BritNats’ worse nightmare might not be many sleeps away! And they know it!

      They really are scraping the barrel in their last ditch defence.

    53. Thepnr says:

      I think polls in Scotland on the Independence question have pretty much lost any value as a gauge of public opinion on the subject.

      The questions can be skewed and the result used to try and form opinion as in being splashed on the front page of The Scotsman.

      The whole point of course is to make people who might be sitting on the fence that Indy support is by far the minority view, that they’d be picking the wrong side, the losing side if they were to support Independence.

      Another goal is to depress Yes activists and SNP members and volunteers that work tirelessly for the cause, they want people to believe that they are wasting their time and getting nowhere.

      It’s all just another arm of propaganda of course and we on this isde are guilty of it too when we get excited that there’s a poll showing a lead with a No deal Brexit for example.

      It’s human nature to react in this way, “confirmation bias” you want to hear that your team are doing well and the other are rubbish. I’m afraid that the polls are so easily manipulated now that they have very little value as a prediction tool or even a measure of true opinion.

      How they are weighted bothers me as well for what use is it to weight a poll on say past referendum vote? That means there will always be 55% of No voters opinions counted which could skew the result and takes no account of people having changed their mind since 2014. Weighting by sex, age and other demographics makes sense but not past political opinion which can change.

      The polling companies themselves can’t be trusted either so I think what I’m saying is that we’ll all just have to make our own mind up as to the direction of travel based on what our own experiences are with the people we talk to everyday.

      What you see and hear from those around you is probably better and a more accurate gauge of support for Independence than any poll you might read.

      150,000 at least marched on Scotland’s streets in support of Independence this year, more than ever, that tells you something.

    54. galamcennalath says:

      @Philip Maughan

      Indeed. No one could possibly design the utter undemocratic shambles that is the UK in this day and age!

      For one thing, the UK is essentially a top down feudal model. The power resides with an elite establishment. The ‘rights’ of the masses are little more than a veneer to keep them quiet and in their place.

    55. ronnie anderson says:

      Saving the Westminster Governments millions so they can give out Tax rebates to the Big Corporations & the Elite , if everybody payed their dues there would be no need for people to depend on charities or foodbanks F the Bbc & their Christmas Jumpers sales .

    56. Thepnr says:

      James Kelly gives his view on the SiU poll and it’s deriding.

    57. wull2 says:

      About 40 Years ago, when I worked in a Pet shop, we had a rat problem. For a few nights we left a drum open with a small amount of food at the bottom and a plank of wood to make it easy for them to get up, In the morning there was about 30 Rats in the trap.
      The Rats and traps, remind me of WM.

      Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

      By the way, I am not a member of the SNP.

    58. Colin Alexander says:

      Get yourselves over to Craig Murray’s blog and read the truth.

      He’s basically saying the same as me, only more eloquently.

    59. orri says:

      The raw figures for those who claimed to have voted Yes vs No in 2014 are roughly 53:47 which is quite remarkable.

      The easiest solution is that that answer alone has been accidentally reversed as it’s close to the survey held on votes in Scotland alone, still a loss for independence but far closer.

      Other than that there’s a mix of those lying about that due to embarrassment or in order to mislead by having themselves included in the figures for, say SNP or YES supporters switching to NO. There’s probably an optimal strategy for where and how to mislead in that way.

    60. Legerwood says:


      Front page of Herald today – a story about Police Scotland. Quotes such as ‘below safe staffing levels’ and shortage of cash. All from an industrial Tribunal which reported in December 2017 about a complaint dating from 2014.

      Why the front page splash? Well wouldn’t you know it, Edit Scotland published its report on Police Scotland this afternoon.

      Expect the head of Audit Scotland to be all over the news tonight. Is it just me but does she have a higher, political, profile than her predecessors.

      And in other breaking news, Scottish teachers have rejected the pay offer and now strike seems likely.

    61. Capella says:

      @ Thepnr – thx for the link – James Kelly can always be relied on to dig into the stats. He’s the first place I go when there’s a new poll out and he didn’t disappoint on this occasion. He will be updating it later after some number crunching.

    62. manandboy says:

      “For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.” Mt25:29. (The Neo-liberal/Capitalist Creed)

      This is well worthwhile, but not, I repeat, not an easy read.

      The video below, is also very useful.

      Both offer a ‘satellite’ view of the economic and political world in which we all live but which we are not privvy to seeing because we are ordinary people whose place in life does not warrant access to what our political and financial masters see. As a result, we are virtually tiny organisms living on the body of a whale, for whom we are an annoying parasite.

    63. twathater says:

      RE the SC refusing the tolies to challenge the Andy Wightman ,Joanna Cherry , Joly Maughan application to the ECJ surely they now CANNOT overrule the SG continuity bill , by their decision they have admitted Scots Law precedence

    64. Davie Oga says:

      Several other SNP MP’s ( Cherry, Whitford +) have added their signatures to Angus Brendan MacNeil’s letter to May explaining that Scotland WILL have the opportunity to choose it’s constitutional future. He’s given May the option- referendum or general election ( citing Thatcher’s “majority of Scottish MP’s”).

      The day of decision will soon be here.

    65. Ken500 says:

      The Scotsman lies again. It is actually funny. No one believes it. People just thinks that nonsense again. Are they trying to make a mockery of themselves? They are certainly succeeding.

      Labour and Corbyn misses once again. They are impossible. Mission impossible once again. They certainly do not want the poison chalice.

      Why is Scotland playing Israel? The match should have been banned or boycotted. Israel should be banned from international sport. They have just killed more Palestinians.

    66. manandboy says:

      It is understandable that some are impatient for decisive action, not least because our Colonial Masters and slave owners, are in crisis and thereby greatly distracted.

      Nevertheless, the Scottish nation continues to be crippled by division of various kinds, some old, some new.

      Nor can we yet say that we are organised and fully prepared. Nor is the time yet right for our potentially vital allies in the UN and the EU to join our cause, sympathetic though they are.

      But perhaps the biggest reason why it might be unwise, at this precise point, to move decisively towards independence, lies in the unprecedented instability and unpredictability of the political ground of the UK.

      The UK political ice-cap is melting and breaking up. To set off now for a place which might not even be there in 5 months time, looks to be not very smart.

      Make no mistake, Westminster politics is in real crises and now subject to seismic forces which it has not had to face before. The foundations of the British Empire at home are under severe pressure, from within and without.
      Something has to give before very long.

      Making plans for the future, on the Titanic, is maybe not a
      such a good idea.

    67. Tam fae somewhere says:

      Surely if the Scotsman wants to influence opinion it has to actually sell some newspapers!

    68. Thepnr says:


      I tend to agree, we’ve had 311 years of rule by Westminster, what’s another few months or even couple of years in comparison? I put this post on the last thread in response to Petra but worth repeating here…

      I think those that are agitating for an immediate Indyref2 are going to be sorely disappointed. I can’t see any way in which there will be one before the 29th March.

      For starters I don’t believe that it’s an absolute certainty that we will be out of the EU on that date, there’s plenty wriggle room there yet that will keep us in such as the possibility to withdraw the Article 50 notice.

      Throw in the potential for a General Election or a second EU referendum and it becomes impossible to call a second Independence referendum now.

      I certainly don’t speak for Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP but does anyone else seriously believe that she would call for Indyref2 when there is so much still to be resolved around the current Brexit mess?

      I for one don’t, I also know that if none of that happens and there is a deal agreed in parliament in support of May then we go into the transition until at least Dec 2020.

      That’s another 21 months after the end of March and it could be extended for up to another 2 years according to Barnier. So nearly 4 more years when we will still be following all the rules and regulations of the EU. Free movement still applying, no tariffs on goods and no near trade deals with other countries.

      Scotland effectively for another 4 years will still be in the EU just that the UK no longer has a say in the EU parliament since it has no MEP’s.

      I wouldn’t see past an Independent Scotland remaining in the EU with their blessing as long as we voted for it while still in the transition phase.

      Truth be told, anything might happen in the interm and for that reason we need to bide our time. Timing really is everything and will be the difference between winning and losing.

    69. Andy-B says:

      No doubt never directly elected Murdo Fraser bought his copy of the Hootsman today,and believes every word of the flawed SiU poll.

      Meanwhile STV news should come with a health warning that watching it will make you seriously believe that Scotlland is a depressing wee nation unable to govern itself under a SNP government, who seem to be the cause of everything bad.

    70. Bob Mack says:

      Nicola is doing a brilliant job. In her last referendum battle she was defeated by lack of numbers, but only just.

      What does a good commander do in those circumstances, because all things being equal,the same result would inevitably repeat itself

      Nicola is using her government to demonstrate that she is looking after everybody ,independence and Unionist alike.

      Commanders call it winning hearts and minds. In this enterprise she is being helped by the most inept Westminster government in my lifetime.

      Yes,there is risk by waiting then Brexit may actually get a deal however unlikely. There may be no Brexit at all. There are many other permutations still to be considered.

      The point is that Nicola is playing the cards as they fall. Nobody,but nobody could point the finger at her and accuse her of not thinking of their viewpoint. It is Westminster intransigence that will kill the Union, in the biggest act of self harm in my lifetime.

      We are armchair experts. Nicola does this for a living.

    71. The Scotsman is just doing its job, telling lies on behalf of the Westminster regime.

      The British Nationalist Government pay good money to support the so called Newspaper’s democracy money I am sure is only part of it.

      The “Newspapers” shall not be allowed to fail the anti Scottish message has to get out to the proles.

    72. Bobp says:

      ‘The survation poll commissioned by a pro union group’. Says it all really.

    73. Robert Louis says:


      I get your points you make, but for me, if they don’t call indyref before brexit kicks in (and it will even with a transition phase), then the game is lost. Besides, even once we get to that point, their will be NEW issues on the horizon, new concerns. Those things will never go away, and to imagine they will is wishful thinking.

      No matter when a referendum is called, their will be problems looming and uncertainty. Mark my words, if no indyref is called before March next year, then even unionists will be mocking the FM.. When brexit kicks in, unionists will just say, well, Nicola could have done something about it, but was too afraid to call the referendum, so you need to ask her why. I and you both know that will be baloney, but that is what is going to happen. Unionists are just buying time.

      The Scotgov should call the referendum. If their is an election, so what, just stand on an indy mandate etc..

      Their will never be the right time. If Alex Salmond had waited in the same way, then indyref1 would never have happened. Don’t forget he called it some years ahead, so he could never know what might happen in the intervening period.

      This constant waiting to see what happens, is just baloney. Their will never be a ‘right time’.

    74. Calum McKay says:

      labour’s party machinery has disappeared in Scotland, that is of course excepting the colossal brain and intellect of one James Kelly, Esq.

      It also appears that labour”s machinery has disappeared in the commons too and they don’t have the people, political savvy and intelligence to kick a ball through an open goal.

      As for SIU and the Scotsman, I thought they were one and the same!

    75. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Louis

      I too get your points, the thing is though let’s say I’m right and there is not another referendum before March. Will you support for Independence evaporate?

      Will you be resigned to the fact that Scotland can never be Independent because we failed to hold a referendum on Independence before 29th March when we might or might not actually leave the EU?

      I can only speak for myself and I’m willing to say that my mind won’t change and I’ll still support Yes in a second referendum whenever it happens. I’m immovable when it comes to that and I can understand why the leaders of the SNP have decided to wait for now.

      Put it this way, how certain are you right now of winning another referendum? Ignoring polls I’m talking gut feeling. are you at least 90% certain or maybe 60% certain?

      That’s important because it will be gut feeling that drives me as to when the time is right and personally it is not right now as I’d only have 50% confidence of winning and that is too big a risk in the knowledge that at my age I’m unlikely to have another chance.

      I’m definitely prepared to wait until the laughing stock that is the Westminster parliament have shown themselves up as the incompetents they are. Everyday they reveal more incompetence, Jeremy Corbyn missing a vote that Labour could have won on child poverty being the latest example.

      I don’t need 60% in the polls for Yes or even 50% in the polls, I just need that gut feeling that we can win. Right now i don’t have that but see it coming. We only need wait as we watch Westminster cave in on itself in the coming months.

      Then we strike.

    76. Thepnr says:

      All these distractions need to have gone, could you imaging the news on Reporting Scotland, mixing up General Elections, second EU referendums and Indyref2 all at the same time?

      The mind boggles, we need a clear run at it with no distractions.

    77. starlaw says:

      If the ‘Scotsman’ does not have a new editor in two weeks time then Tory money has been used to buy it.
      Nobody pumps millions into a failing business then allows the business to be run the same old way that caused it to fail in the first place.

    78. galamcennalath says:

      ” Mr Borrell also hinted that Spain would have no problem with an independent Scotland, and would not seek to block it from joining the EU, as long as it left the UK through legal means. “

    79. starlaw says:

      Jeremy Corbyn supports Brexit, he may promise the earth to anyone who will listen but at the end of the day he will make sure Brexit is carried in Westminster.

    80. HandandShrimp says:

      Ultra loyalist Nash is an embarrassment to Labour. However, there are so many Labour embarrassments that she doesn’t even register on the Richter scale.

      No surprise that it was the Hootsmon that ran with this.

    81. Old Pete says:

      Is the guy leading the EIS not something to do with the Labour party?
      Where do teacher’s think the Scottish government is going to get the money to pay this.
      The Labour party can’t defeat the SNP in a straight fight so they use ordinary workers to attempt to show the Scottish government is against their workforce when the exact opposite is the case. 98% of EIS members who voted to fight for a 10% pay rise and a reduced work load. They have been offered more than any Teachers in Wales, England or NI none of which union’s are organizing strikes ? But Scotland has the best paid teachers in state schools in all of the UK.
      Teachers deserve 20%, in fact most council workers deserve 20% but where do we get the money to pay for this pay rise ?
      These strikes are political actions by workers led by Labour fanatics doing their masters bidding to make the Scottish government look bad.
      If they do strike I fear like the misguided female council workers in Glasgow, they the ordinary teachers will be the losers.

    82. Ken500 says:

      How is the (Indy) game lost? It would be difficult to have a GE at the same time as an IndyRef. It is better to concentrate on one at a time. Westminster is in chaos. A shambles. Better to hsve a GE with an Indy mandate and an increased majority. Endorses Indy. With less Tories mouthing off in the future, Hopefully even rid of Mundell would be a bonus. Then call the date for an IndyRef. Especially with a higher, credible majority. It would be better to see how the dice fall. Get a more even field.

      The anxiety about missing the slot is not conducive to Democrscy. It is up to the people to decided. A consistent SNP support and a higher Indy majority. Some folk have missed the plot. It is up to the people to decide with higher support for the SNP/Indy. Patience is a virtue. There is no doubt an IndyRef is coming soon. All the factors are aligning.

      There is no doubt if the Scottish Gov calls an IndyRef date. The unionists at Westminster would call a GE. To try and muck up an IndyRef. That is par for the course. They do not believe in Democracy. Get a GE out of the way then call it. Even a Holyrood election could endorse it. It is up to the people. It might even be when the economy starts to decline (or not), because of leaving the EU. Independence support will increase and grow even more. People are panicking when there is all to play for the future,

    83. Robert Louis says:


      Your view point basically gives free license for the SNP/Scotgov to carry on doing nothing. Where is the fight in them?

      If that is how the SNP leadership think, It is EXACTLY the attitude that destroyed the Labour party in Scotland. They assumed that non tory voters would always vote labour, so they didn’t need to take their desires too seriously. ‘Ah, whatever, they thought, those folks will always vote Labour anyway’ ‘red rosette on a donkey etc..’. They believed it right up to when they were slaughtered at the polls and they have never recovered.

      I do not doubt that a coward or cynical political operator might say, ‘well, these kinds of people (SNP supporters) will vote for indy and SNP anyway’, so it doesn’t matter if we just don’t bother with a referendum.

      However, you did ask a question, ‘will my support for independence evaporate’? No, but will my utter contempt for the SNP mean I’ll never vote for them again, then the answer is YES. Very, very much YES. They will have shown themselves no better than Labour. Promises made, not kept.

    84. Ken500 says:

      There is always claims to be a teachers strike, which never happens. There is conciliation through discussion. The settlement seems fair enough. The poorer paid get more and the higher paid get less but all get an increase. Cosla, Labour dominated, does the negotiations.

      It is councils that are responsible for education. They get the funding and often try to cut it. Using the statutory no (30 pupils per class) as the norm to keep class sizes higher and not build schools. Mr Sweeney should take the no ratio down? The Councils would have to,spend the allocated funding on education.

      The unionist Councils spend £Millions on concrete jungles. Building shops, offices and hotels. Grotesque monstrosities rulning the skyline wasting £Millions/Billions and cutting essential services. There are already shops, offces and hotels under occupied.

    85. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Louis

      I had never in my life supported the SNP until I decidedto do so in the General election of 2015. I’m really not concerned at all about SNP support though I do see them as the only political vehicle that have the clout, the money and the leader that will get us there.

      I made up my mind just weeks ago to join the SNP in order to help them do just that, win our Independence. They have my moral and financial support and when it comes to it will have my physical support in the chapping of doors.

      There is plenty fight left in me and it will directed towards winning Independence. We will have a second bite at the cherry and that timing of that is far less important than the winning of it.

    86. Ken500 says:

      Trolling against the SNP does nothing for Independence. Neither does idle threats. Or comparison to Labour. Did the SNP instigate illegal war or the worst migration crisis since the 11WW. They have taken more people in. (Pro rata). Given support. Labour unionists caused the banking crash. After Thatcher deregulating banking. Tory/Labour sanction and starve people. Supported Thatcher. Buried the McCrone Report.

      The SNP are trying to mitigate the Westminster cuts. Prescription charges, MUP, social care, no bedroom tax, cut students fees and increased loans, increased nursery care. renewables, lower unemployment. Building Bridges, roads railways, hospitals, affordable houses. Mitigating education cuts and increasing (pro rata) SNHS spending, increasing nursing funding and buseries.

      Bloggers who publicallly tear up their SNP membership when they do not get their own way to jump the queue are suspect.

    87. jfngw says:

      As Labour can’t win at the ballot box, they have decided they can win on the picket line. Seems to be a lot of unions agitating in Scotland but not elsewhere. This seems strange as it looks like they have received slightly better deals here than elsewhere over the recent period.

    88. Ken500 says:

      When people look at the Scotsman headlines. The unfortunate. They would assume it is EU membership support being referred to. Up to 60%. It was 62%. There are reports it is up to 83%. These people will be very disappointed to be taken out of the EU and add to Independence support.

    89. orri says:

      Panelbase closed recruiting prior to 2014. There was an online campaign by no supporters to get those on their side to join alleging the Yes side had already done so.

      Example two choices A and B evenly split.
      Sample of 100 also split 50:50
      No change.
      No one lies so you get AA BB and no weighing

      But if 5 previous A voters were to deliberately misremember then it’d be

      AA 45 , BB 50 , BA 5

      Which if weighed gives a prediction of aprox 55.55 A , 45.45 B

    90. Breeks says:

      Thepnr says:
      20 November, 2018 at 8:21 pm

      …There is plenty fight left in me and it will directed towards winning Independence. We will have a second bite at the cherry and that timing of that is far less important than the winning of it.

      Sorry Thepnr, but I believe you are absolutely wrong in saying that. So wrong in fact it is dangerous.

      Please go back to Rev’s previous story and read what Wull has just posted. If it doesn’t scare the bejesus out of you, read it again.

    91. call me dave says:


      As others have said. There’s more than one way to topple a government and agitating through union demands supported by a hostile media is an obvious lever.

      Scotland’s got money to burn tucked down the back of the sofa it’s extortion with menaces disguised as workers demands.

      But look darn Sarf to Tory land and into the labour Welsh valleys
      all is calm and tranquil.

      Funny old world. Init!

      Footie nerves beginning to twitch and it’s only halftime. 🙂

    92. Thepnr says:


      LOL I’m sure you know what you meant but you have me stumped.

      Care to give another example as I think I know what your point is 🙂

    93. Thepnr says:


      I will go and read wull’s post on the previous thread but before I do I’ll ask you this.

      What possibly can be more important than the winning of another referendum?

    94. manandboy says:

      I save all my contempt for the Tories, Labour & the LibDems.

      I will always support the SNP, because they are indispensable to the cause of Independence.

      They are not perfect, but I don’t need them to be. However, they are a damned sight better than any other Party, and in Nicola, Scotland has an outstanding First Minister.

      I believe in Independence and self-determination for their own sake, for the wellbeing of the Scottish people.

      My Yes is unconditional.

      Hail Caesar!

    95. Ian McCubbin says:

      lets just leave the UK and be done with it.
      This is idiot reporting where only the gullible and half awake will fall fowl of it.
      When will these people realise Scotland and its people have woken up about a year ago.

    96. Breeks says:

      Thepnr says:
      20 November, 2018 at 8:51 pm

      I will go and read wull’s post on the previous thread but before I do I’ll ask you this.

      What possibly can be more important than the winning of another referendum?

      Having no Constitutional statute whereby the result means anything.

    97. Brian Cahill says:

      I had the misfortune of meeting Pamela Nash, I was representing a friend regarding an issue involving local government. I could not believe she was so utterly dim and her lack of basic arithmetic was shocking.

    98. Clootie says:

      SIU trash understandable and expected.
      The Scotsman reporting it….unfortunately also not surprising but it should be. No change following the deckchair re-arrangement then.

    99. Ghillie says:

      I am glad SiU are exactly as they are.

      Overwhelmingly unimpressive.

    100. Rock says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      20 November, 2018 at 3:47 pm

      “As for Labour no tabling a motion of no confidence. Was there something stopping the SNP from doing that?

      It would be poetic justice if the SNP tabled the motion that toppled the Tory Govt after years of false accusations blaming an SNP no confidence motion for ushering in the Thatcher years.”

      Excellent point.

      Perhaps the SNP apologists posting here could challenge it?

    101. geeo says:

      Re: agitating unions.

      As said, only in Scotland are they doing so.

      Where are the ENGLISH teaching unions raging about yet another piddling 1% rise when Scots teaching unions are screaming for 10% and rejecting 3% ?

      Where is the Labour party in England on this ?

      Helping and encouraging union action on the streets of Dulwich and the Wirral ?

      Nah….they are too busy telling the branch office to agitate their pet unions to score points v the SNP.

      Bit ironic, when Labour have much more chance of beating the Tories south of the border than beating the SNP north of it.

    102. Effijy says:

      Now if I was one of the big American finance companies who
      took over the Scotsman, I’d have a wee look at why its readership and advertising revenues were heading down the pan quicker than its competitors.

      On recognising its just a propaganda leaflet devoid of the truth or genuine investigative journalist, I’d clear out the crap within and try out some new young objective journalist to recover the situation.

      As that hasn’t happened, I can only assume that UK Tory money is funding the on-going diatribe against Scotland.

      The rich are funding the status que as the rewards are greater than their investment.

    103. Bob Mack says:

      Only official opposition can table motion of no confidence.
      That good enough ?

    104. Cactus says:

      Yes n yee har Scotland!!!

      Football 🙂

    105. call me dave says:


      Hi Cactus Phew! Too close for comfort.


      I saw your name in The National X-cross word today.

      Last week ‘Breeks’ and the week before that ‘Grouse Beater’

    106. Hamish100 says:

      BBC Radio 5 Live Bradford – with highlights from a team called Scotland.

    107. Cactus says:

      Evenin’ call me dave, aye ah was listenin’ in tae the game on the wireless radio, it must have been mental for the Scotland fans actually at the match, or watching the big game from the television.

      They’ll be singing in the streets of the south side ra night!

      Scotland 3 ~ 2 Israel (94 minutes.)

      Hosted by the City of Glasgow.

      Glasgow… the caring city.

    108. Hamish100 says:

      Rock and Alexander – labour can only put forward a motion of No Confidence. Oops both are now silent. Read it in the National tomorrow !

    109. Macart says:

      I’m not interested in glorious fighting defeats. Been there, done that. I want to win and see that win benefit all of us.

      The SNP have proven good, capable government in bad times. Perfect? No. Faultless? No one is that I’ve ever met and most folk have some clay stuck to their feet somewhere. We’re just human and most of us screw up. It’s a design flaw. (shrugs)

      Twisted, inept and evil? Well they haven’t used punishment legislation against their own population. They haven’t trashed an economy. They haven’t invaded anyone to rob them of their resources or to aid erstwhile political allies in their geopolitical aims. They haven’t thrown anyone into internment camps or deported anyone because they’re not the right sort. So no. No, they’re nowhere near the bad guys here either.

      What if it’s not a case of won’t, but can’t? Not yet. Perhaps the opportunity to move hasn’t quite legally or officially presented itself? Brexit hasn’t happened so far as I’m aware and whilst the SG have a triple lock on numbers, the trigger to revisit the constitutional settlement is being taken out of the EU against our will.

      Most folks on indy sites would call a vote yesterday, today or tomorrow. They’d crawl over broken glass to get to a polling booth. Thing is, and there’s no way round it, they’re not responsible for the lives and life chances of ALL of the population of Scotland. Those who do support self government and those who don’t. ALL lives and ALL opinions.

      Nor are they privy to all the pressures (legal and political) of government. Last I checked, a slim majority of Scotland’s population instructed our government to act within the constraints of devolution. Constitutional conflict threatened, almost certain thanks to the actions of the arrogant and ignorant of Westminster, but it hasn’t happened… yet.

      ‘Course it doesn’t help that you’re facing an utterly intransigent and powerful central government. Or that the media has not only closed off access to you, but they’re fairly antagonistic toward your aims. That can be a bit of a drag on your planning.

      Calling the timing on a decision to take your population toward self determination in the face of all that? Not a decision or a job I’d revel in tbh. I’m way too delicate and have a really nervous disposition. I cry like a baby at the end of Casablanca, that kinda thing. Skin like tissue paper t’boot.

    110. Petra says:

      God all of this “go Nicola go” gets wearing. We’ve been hearing this on here for years now and if she had followed this advice, such as from the nincompoop who says she should have called Indyref2 following the EURef result we would have lost abysmally. And that applies to the last few months too, imo.

      I was talking to Dr Mark McNaught recently and he said that you can’t expect people to make a call on independence when everything is up in the air. The situation is far too confusing for people to make a definitive decision prior to clarity on the Brexit deal and that’s it in a nutshell for me.

      How on earth can you ask people if they would rather live in an Independent Scotland than the UK Union when we don’t even know if Brexit will go ahead or not? There will no doubt be more people scunnered with the Tories, due to the Tory fiasco, but not enough to make a substantial difference right now. We need to know if this deal (or an amended version of it) is going to go ahead, if they are going to crash out with a No deal Brexit, or of course if A50 will be withdrawn.

      When Nicola knows, for example, if this deal is going to go ahead she can basically outline, list, how this will impact on Scotland in every solitary area from immigration to universities, the NHS, economy, etc, and then lay out her case for Independence. To expect her to lay out a positive case for independence right now is downright ridiculous, imo.

      We’ve waited for over 300 years for this, can’t we just hang on for another few weeks / months? More than anything during that time support Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP rather than complaining about her / them at every turn. Worse still going all out in an attempt to discredit them.

    111. Rock says:

      Bob Mack says:
      20 November, 2018 at 9:32 pm

      “Only official opposition can table motion of no confidence.
      That good enough ?”

      If true, that proves that the SNP are completely impotent at Westminster.

      They can’t ever manage to pass a single thing but it would have been nice if they could, and had the guts, to bring a vote of no confidence in Saint Theresa of England and Wales.

      Rock (25th January – “By hook or by Cook”):

      “The British Establishment makes sure that anyone who goes to Westminster gets corrupted.

      56 SNP MPs achieved as much for Scotland as 6 would have: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      I would prefer that all of them are called back or lose their seats before they have been bought off.”

    112. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ffs RT reporting that Poll as if its pukka

    113. Thepnr says:


      OK I’ve read wulls post and responded to it, nothing in my mind has changed. It matters not a jot whether Article 50 can be halted unilaterally by the UK or not as to whether we should have a referendum tomorrow or some time in the future.

      He does have a very important point wrong in stating that the ECJ will give their decision on the 27th Nov. They won’t, it could be months after hearing the case before they make that decision. So we don’t know where this is going.

      That’s my whole point, let’s get clarity first over everything Brexit related however long it takes. Nicola Sturgeon is doing exactly the right thing in waiting and there is no uncertainty there at least as far as I’m concerned.

    114. Rock says:

      Rock (1st October – “One tired eyebrow”):

      “Nicola is an Establishment lawyer.

      She knows that the majority in the Scottish parliament is utterly useless.

      She would not dare hold an illegal referendum without Westminster’s Section 30 approval.

      Why would SNP MPs and MSPs want to go into exile in Brussels when they are doing fine here, almost completely embedded into the Establishment?

      Mark my words – Establishement lawyer Nicola will not dare call an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed and Scotland is at the mercy of Westminster.

      To the EU, Scotland will have the same status as Catalonia.

      The EU didn’t quite rush to defend Catalonia did it?”

    115. Legerwood says:

      geeo says:
      20 November, 2018 at 9:25 pm
      Re: agitating unions.

      “”As said, only in Scotland are they doing so.

      Where are the ENGLISH teaching unions raging about yet another piddling 1% rise when Scots teaching unions are screaming for 10% and rejecting 3% ?””

      The teachers in England accepted a 3.5% offer for 2018-19. But the Scottish teachers even at a flat rate 3% increase for 2018-19 would still be paid more than the English teachers

    116. manandboy says:

      There’s a story about a man who runs out of petrol on the M74 in the borders, miles from anyhere, just after midnight. Looking around he sees a light in the distance across the fields, so he sets off in the hope of getting some petrol. But as he crosses the fields, he suffers an attack of negative thinking which increases the further he goes, until by the time he is walking up the drive to the front door of the house, he is in a temper and has convinced himself of the impossibility of getting any fuel, and is mad at himself for coming all that way over wet and muddy fields for nothing.

      Anyway, he knocks on the door, and the old man inside, who has had many similar visits in the past and who keeps a wee stock of cans of fuel for drivers in just this predicament, makes his way to answer the door. As he opens it, the driver shouts at him saying ‘Ach, away ye go ya oul fool. Ah widnae take yer petrol even if ye had any!’ And he stormed off into the dark, before the old man had a chance to even open his mouth.

      Some seem persuaded, despite being a sovereign people, that we’re no gonnae get Independence. We’ll get it alright, and at a time of our choosing.

    117. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack says:
      20 November, 2018 at 9:32 pm
      Only official opposition can table motion of no confidence.
      That good enough ?

      Aye. It shows how undemocratic Westminster is.

    118. Sinky says:

      Sky News review on Daily Telegraph front page coverage of Spain supporting us joining the EU. However Toby Young attacking Snp and Indy going on about deficit and 60% against Indy without any challenge.
      Can watch again at 11.30

    119. Thepnr says:


      I think I’ve met people just like that man who crossed the fields 🙂

    120. Proud Cybernat says:

      Rock – aye you – just shut the fuck up.

      You’re convincing NO ONE HERE.

    121. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Proud Cybernat.

      I’ve been scrolling past his/her posts for months. They were either copy/pastes of others’ comments or trolling for comments from others. y’know, ‘others’. I caught my own username croppin’ up (amongst others) as I scrolled by, trying to get us to respond but I didn’t see the point.

      He/she is a busted flush. Shame her/his life is so empty…

    122. Hamish100 says:

      The britnats are revolting and scared.

    123. Proud Cybernat says:

      HI BDTT,

      I generally just scroll past his/her mince – and a good few others too I should add but just felt that this BritNat clown needed telt from me tonight that s/he is completely wasting their time here night after night after night after….

      S/he must surely have better things to be doing than being someone else’s useful idiot – ’cause that’s exactly what s/he is – a useful idiot. Someone else’s clown. And s/he won’t get any thanks for it at the end of the day.

    124. Cactus says:

      o/t fyaye received a 4-page mailshot from Jackson Carlaw MSP, it came through the post the other day, here’s the questions being asked on the back page:

      “Your views are important to Jackson, let him know what you think…

      Q1. What’s your principal local or national concern?

      Q2. In your opinion, during the last year has the condition of local roads improved?
      – Yes
      – No
      – No view

      Q3. Do you have access to a local Post Office?

      Q4. East Renfrewshire Council has resolved to build a completely new Leisure Centre at an initial estimated cost of up to £30 million. The options in the original online consultation were as follows. Please rank from 1-4.
      – Retain existing Eastwood Park Leisure Centre with only essential maintenance taking place
      – Refurbish existing Eastwood Park Leisure Centre
      – New build Leisure Facility on the current Eastwood Park site
      – New build Leisure Facility on a different site

      Q5. Is there any other issue you would like to raise which is of direct concern to you?

      Jackson will look at each survey personally. Thank you.”

      Hmm, question three is interesting… is there an election of iReferendum a happening soon, handy for postal voting like.

    125. orri says:

      Will try again.

      If you wanted to rig a poll before weighing became common then you’d simply try to get included more than once.

      That’s more relevant with online polls where you contact them rather than the other way around.


    126. Cactus says:

      o/t fyaye2 cont… here’s his spiel from the inside page:

      “Dear Eastwood Resident,

      As ever I am grateful for the opportunity to catch up and to meet those who stop and have a chat when they see me around the constituency. There is no substitute for first hand comment and opinion.

      Whilst many have attended surgeries or been in touch on issues, it has all too often been to raise concerns regarding delays or problems with health, accessing local education or with planning. On the street though, many choose to talk about national issues, mainly our exit from the EU or ongoing fears, concerns and frustrations at the prospect of a second independence referendum.

      I have attended some of the newly reformed Community Council meetings, all of which do solid work on behalf of their immediate communities. However, I remain concerned that with no widely available or distributed local newspaper in Eastwood, too many feel uninformed about local events and unable to meaningfully contribute to local decision making. A case in point is the extraordinary expense local Council Tax payers are being invited to stump up to fund the most expensive of the options available for a new or refurbished local leisure centre. I have written to all the immediately affected households. In the survey on the back page of this Report, I am offering all households in Eastwood a chance to let me know what they think.

      I will, as always, do everything I can to support as many local events as possible (please let me know they are on!) and to respond to issues and concerns you raise with me.

      Time and again I am reminded that whatever the pressures on our local community, infrastructure and services there are, just what good fortune it is to live in Eastwood. It remains the greatest privilege to represent you at Holyrood.

      All best wishes
      Jackson Carlaw
      Member of the Scottish Parliament for Eastwood Constituency
      (Scottish Conservative and Unionist)”

      Aye, ah huvnae received ‘The Extra’ paper in the post for over 2 years now. 🙂

      Ah think it was one of them Johnston Press rags ah-gnaw.

      9 days remaining to go till St Andrew’s day.

      Dae something!


    127. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 11.48
      I suspect that He/She/it has narcissistic personality disorder..
      All the classic symptoms are there…. the goading the repetition,the failure to accept that they can be wrong and the Gaslighting.
      More to be pitied than blamed … as long as they are not coming home to you… LOL…cause they rarely can accept they are like this!!!
      It really is incurable…. you really are just best to leave them to it and funnily enough ( well it always makes me smile) the term to deal with the narcissist you can’t avoid is to “Grey Rock” them … as in be like one towards them when they try to engage!!!

    128. orri says:


      To avoid being played that way or honest sampling variations polling companies ask questions about age, sex, income and other items including previous voting history. Which they then use to adjust their results to more closely match the electorate.

      In this case they’ve adjusted the balance of Yes/No responses in line with the 2014 referendum result.

      There are many reasons why that might not work. One of which is people say what the wish they’d voted rather than what the actually did.

      However it’s possible that a deliberate attempt might be made to corrupt a poll by falsely claiming you voted one way but will now vote the other.

      Another attempt might be say the previous result was A B perfectly tied. Represent that by A and B. If the vote is to be held again represent voting intent by a and b. Assuming there’s been no change in intent then you could get say 45 Aa and 45 Bb replies. If 10 fakes get added that becomes 55 45 but once weighed reverts to 50 50. So pointless trying to influence a poll that way.

      However if instead of telling the truth the fakes are Ba then the result changes. Those A votes are all multiplied by 50/45 to give the 50 that you’d expect. The Bs by 50/55 . The total vote for a is 45 * 50 / 45 + 10 * 50 / 55 = 50 + 9.1 = 59.1
      Quite a dramatic apparent swing from B.

      The same as the abandoning of the SNP.

      This only really applies to polls where you can register and fake one or more profiles.

      A more obvious problem is the rabble rousing study post 2014 showing a far closer result in Scotland alone. There’s no guarantee that 45:55 is the appropriate Yes:No split for the over 16 UK voter with EU citizens excluded.

    129. Orri says:

      Not sure it’s only the official opposition that can bring forward a vote of no confidence. It’s the words of the motion that matter rather than who proposes it. Fairly certain all major parties get to put forward motions on a regular basis. Also enough private members putting one down would mean at least one would make it into the diary.

      The only reason the official opposition might be most likely to bring one forward is they’re most likely to succeed. And might simply abstain if it came to it.

      There’s even a joke that the obvious way to bypass the fixed term act is for the government to put the motion down themselves. Then vote down every putative be government.

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      I think there’s a whole load of balls in the air, and only one is a bouncer, giving the rest of the balls their chance.

      If any of the rest falls to the ground, it stays there and we get Independence.

    131. yesindyref2 says:

      If that’s a bit cryptic, put it this way.

      There is no dead end for Independence, there is no end, there is no “it’ll never happen”, there is no failure, there is no “we’re dooomed”. Only a delay.

      If one opportunity fails, there will be another, and it won’t be 50 years, 20 years or even 10 years, it would be 5 years at the most, and more likely 2. Scotland has the taste, and it’s addictive. Mmmm, delicious, can I have some more please?

    132. Macart says:


      Pretty much. I can see at least three options the SG have at their disposal which they’ve set in motion. Each dependent on which path the Tories jump onto… natch and each has a slightly different time frame, but all head in one direction.

      Anyroads. Bedtime for me. 😎

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      At least one of them could be sooner than we think.

      Anyways, with that cheery thought, it’s off to bed for me soon too. Night!

    134. Scottish Steve says:

      Is The Scotsman spewing out some last desperate pieces of pro-Union propaganda before it’s consigned to the dustbin of history?

      I do love how unionists refer to the UK as if it means the union between Scotland and England. It doesn’t. The United Kingdom refers to the union between Britain and Ireland. When Scotland and England became a unified state, it was simply known as the Kingdom of Great Britain.

      The “United” part is mostly used in an emotional way to appeal to sentimentality. It allows unionists to paint us as heartless bastards that want to tear apart the unity of this dreary little island.

      There has never been any unity. It was forced upon us in 1707 and unfortunately, Scots chose to continue that in 2014. Let’s not make the same mistake again eh?

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      @Scottish Steve “I do love how unionists refer to the UK as if it means the union between Scotland and England. It doesn’t. The United Kingdom refers to the union between Britain and Ireland. When Scotland and England became a unified state, it was simply known as the Kingdom of Great Britain.

      That’s not right at all Steve, it was the Treaty and Acts of Union of 1706-7 that created the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

      Look at all the provisions (sections), e.g. III “That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain”

      or VII “That all parts of the United Kingdom be for ever from and after the Union …”

      or any of the contents.

      It’s the other way around. Unionists deny this, Indy supporters correct them with the reality and the truth. The parliamentary UK was created on 1st May 1707.

    136. Simon Curran says:

      Sorry that 3.5% is inaccurate. That was not across the board and only offered to some, not all teachers. Also due the number of Academies in England they don’t even need to deliver that pay award in full. The point remains though why is Labour stirring things in Scotland but keeping silent in England.

    137. Petra says:

      Strange don’t you think that there’s no mention by the BBC (and STV) of the Spanish Foreign Minister saying that their government will not stand in the way of an independent Scotland joining the EU? Strange because they, the BBC, had plenty to say about Spain vetoing Scotland previously.

      ‘Better Together myth is busted: Spain will welcome Scotland into EU.’



      WGD: ‘The final death of the Spanish veto myth.’


      No mention either from the BBC (and STV) of the Scottish case that could give politicians / the people of the UK a third Brexit option.

      ‘UK Government fails to stop Scottish Court case seeking answers on reversing Brexit.’


      ‘Encouraged by SNP policy initiatives, Scottish trade mark registrations up 26% in one year!’


      ‘Is it the ‘leaving’ of Liverpool that grieves us so? Reflections on the Survation poll.’


      ‘Brexit: UK will be ‘frozen out’ of EU decisions on budgets, road signs and drinking water during transition period.’

      ”The UK will be “frozen out” of EU decisions on no fewer than 182 new rules in the months after Brexit, a new analysis says, including over budget spending, road signs and drinking water.”

    138. Petra says:

      Oh well my links are ”awaiting moderation”, so I’ll try splitting them up.


      Strange don’t you think that there’s no mention by the BBC (and STV) of the Spanish Foreign Minister saying that their government will not stand in the way of an independent Scotland joining the EU? Strange because they, the BBC, had plenty to say about Spain vetoing Scotland previously.
      ‘Better Together myth is busted: Spain will welcome Scotland into EU.’


      WGD: ‘The final death of the Spanish veto myth.’


      No mention either from the BBC (and STV) of the Scottish case that could give politicians / the people of the UK a third Brexit option.

      ‘UK Government fails to stop Scottish Court case seeking answers on reversing Brexit.’

    139. Petra says:

      ‘Encouraged by SNP policy initiatives, Scottish trade mark registrations up 26% in one year!’


      ‘Is it the ‘leaving’ of Liverpool that grieves us so? Reflections on the Survation poll.’

      ‘Brexit: UK will be ‘frozen out’ of EU decisions on budgets, road signs and drinking water during transition period.’

      ”The UK will be “frozen out” of EU decisions on no fewer than 182 new rules in the months after Brexit, a new analysis says, including over budget spending, road signs and drinking water.”

    140. Dorothy Devine says:

      Cactus , wasn’t there some stooshie over the land used for the community centre , St Ninian’s and the East Ren council offices – which , I realise , you might be too young to remember.
      Bit like the stooshie over a certain hotel in Glasgow? Planning rules , land rules forgotten by certain politicals in charge???

      Petra , glad to see the Scottish trade marks in an upward direction , so sick of seeing the flag of Britain plastered over everything from tatties to eggs.

      By the way Iceland have lovely Scottish chicken and it tastes like the chicken that we had as a treat when I was a kid – which is a wee whiley ago! And ASDA also had Scottish chicken so I bought one and will do a taste test and report back!

    141. skintybroko says:

      Re the teachers – if 10% was given across the board they would be moaning about the differential. If they go on strike they will lose all public support, they aren’t the only profession to have suffered over the past decade, many in the private sector saw their wages slashed and not just in real terms. And it isn’t just their wages it is also directly related to their gilt edged pensions – public sector pensions pay out over 3 x as much as an equivalent private sector pension – that is unsustainable. How about we give them 10% with no additional pension contributions? Public sector pensions should be looked at overall, after all it is us the public that pay their wages and pension contributions and when we reach the age of retirement get offered less than half the living wage – and that’s acceptable??

    142. yesindyref2 says:

      See how propaganda works, even on the usually aware. The SiU question was actually this:

      “If there was a referendum tomorrow with the question Should Scotland remain in the United Kingdom or leave the United Kingdom?, how would you vote?”

      “remain”, “leave””? One way of looking at it is that if Scotalnd leaves the UK, the UK CEASES TO EXIST. There are 3 ways, going back to the dreaded Crawford & Boyle, that Scotland becomes Independent.

      1). Secession, where Scotland leaves the UK.
      2), Separation, where the UK splits in 2. Neither side is leaving, it’s a split.
      3). Dissolution, where the UK ceases to exist, neither side leaving, there’s nothing left to leave, just the assets and debt and a few fond / unfond memories.

      The insidious nature of propaganda is breath-taking, and it took me a few hours to realise wot I just writ.

    143. Luigi says:

      Petra says:

      20 November, 2018 at 10:03 pm

      God all of this “go Nicola go” gets wearing. We’ve been hearing this on here for years now and if she had followed this advice, such as from the nincompoop who says she should have called Indyref2 following the EURef result we would have lost abysmally. And that applies to the last few months too, imo.

      I was talking to Dr Mark McNaught recently and he said that you can’t expect people to make a call on independence when everything is up in the air. The situation is far too confusing for people to make a definitive decision prior to clarity on the Brexit deal and that’s it in a nutshell for me.

      How on earth can you ask people if they would rather live in an Independent Scotland than the UK Union when we don’t even know if Brexit will go ahead or not? There will no doubt be more people scunnered with the Tories, due to the Tory fiasco, but not enough to make a substantial difference right now. We need to know if this deal (or an amended version of it) is going to go ahead, if they are going to crash out with a No deal Brexit, or of course if A50 will be withdrawn.

      When Nicola knows, for example, if this deal is going to go ahead she can basically outline, list, how this will impact on Scotland in every solitary area from immigration to universities, the NHS, economy, etc, and then lay out her case for Independence. To expect her to lay out a positive case for independence right now is downright ridiculous, imo.

      We’ve waited for over 300 years for this, can’t we just hang on for another few weeks / months? More than anything during that time support Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP rather than complaining about her / them at every turn. Worse still going all out in an attempt to discredit them.

      I agree in full. It would be pretty darn stupid to jump the gun at this stage, with everything still up in the air.

      I’m beginning to suspect that May and the EU have this stitched up. She has seen off the cowardly Brexiteers thus far. If she passes the next stage (parliament vote – thanks to frightening enough scaredy blue tories and red slimeballs), then it’s game, set and match. If it gets thrown out, she takes it to the brink and the MSM scare everyone what’s about to happen. The EU make a pretend concession and then it gets passed the HoC.

      What happens then is a galactofudge, which makes it difficult for indyref to be called soon. After all, the BritNats will be screaming “We have been saved!” and those wavering NO voters will not want to go another traumatic life-changing event any time soon.

      So that would be the EU business tied up (well can kicked further down), the cowardly brexiteers seen off and the scots put back in the box. However, there’s an elephant in the room, and it’s a great big smelly one:

      English nationalism

      It may take a while to go critical, but after May’s betrayal, the shock will eventually turn to anger.

      So, for Nicola, I don’t know how to play it – I really don’t. She has played a blinder thus far, but I certainly wouldn’t like to make the decisions she has to make in the coming weeks and months.

    144. Luigi says:

      The Spanish are not trying to scupper the deal. Their late intervention is deliberate. They know that May is desperate and they may be able to squeeze more concession on Gibraltar out of her by leaving their “complaint” until late in the day. Politics.

      However, if the galactofudge deal is concluded (BRINO) and suddenly the EU governments start supporting May and speaking our against Scottish independence, then we will know that the fix was in long ago.

    145. gus1940 says:

      Predictably the rest of our wonderful Scottish dead tree press are climbing aboard the ridiculous SIU poll and Nash’s ludicrous claim.

    146. Nana says:


      It’s 4 years since @NicolaSturgeon became the first woman First Minister of Scotland. Here are just some of the ways we’ve made Scotland healthier, wealthier and fairer.

      Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon urges opposition parties to “work together to come up with an alternative” to the #Brexit deal, after talks with leaders in Westminster

    147. Nana says:

      Brexit Deal Series: Which Brexit Deal: Mad, Implausible, Plausible or Desirable?
      Anton Muscatelli |

      Few in Glasgow have a good word to say about Brexit, and many feel ignored by Westminster

    148. Nana says:

      May not expected to agree final future framework with EU’s Juncker – PM’s spokesman

      Is the big #brexit climbdown beginning? Are the Brexiteers about to decide to ‘buy into’ the idea that Mrs May can fix the Irish border with technology? That unicorns *do* exist?

      NEW: Cabinet went line-by-line through a 20-page draft political declaration on future relationship. Take outs:

    149. Dr Jim says:


      Sky news Niall Patterson and *journalists* this morning comparing Scotland to Catalonia and oh the hilarity over Scotlands Independence as Niall said support for staying in the EU was down and support for Independence was just not there with the *Journalists* smirkily claiming Scotland shouldn’t be *allowed* a referendum anyway even though *we* allowed *them* one before

      Apparently we’re even less of an entity than Catalonia now
      It could be that as usual English *journalists* are just ill informed or stupid, or both, but I don’t think they care enough to either educate themselves or inform themselves because they regard Scotland as a property they own and the people in it, to use one of their recently discovered words, Vassals

      It still seems in order to be an accepted Uncle Tam Jock you have to move to the great metropolis to gain status as a person

      But don’t actually mention Scotland or the derision will be sure to follow

    150. wull2 says:

      Wait until the leader of Scotland has said fire, I can now see clearly the whites of the eyes now the fog has cleared, we night not even to fire a shot, they are about to self destruct.

      If required vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

    151. Macart says:


      Sneaky, isn’t it? When viewed critically, it’s all about word association. It’s about leading people to an experience which causes them pain in order to illicit a desired outcome.

      People really need to get this straight. No Scotland? No UK.

      There is no leaving an existing entity which carries on after. It simply ceases to exist. The treaty itself was and is a fudge by an aggressor to ensure political control of a set of assets. It was never about a consensual union of peoples, but a union binding crown and parliamentary power. It was about greed and negating what was viewed as an economic competitor.

      “We have catch’d Scotland and will bind her fast.” Speaker of the House 1707 (I think)

      Binding is unravelling a bit these days. Tick tock.

    152. Nana says:

      May heading to Brussels amid scramble to finalise Brexit deal

      EU law expert, Professor Michael Dougan has read all 585 pages of Theresa May’s Brexit deal and offers his assessment of the proposal here

    153. manandboy says:

      Twitter: New: Richard Simcox, who currently works for UK Labour, is apparently the new spinner for Richard Leonard. A try out for 3 months – or part of the Unionist strategy for the next 3 months, during which time Richard Leonard can’t be trusted to speak properly.

    154. Macart says:


      Quite the perfect storm brewing there Nana. 😉

    155. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      I’ve take two Kwells and I’m away back under the blankets. Let me know when it’s safe to reappear 🙂

    156. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Just about the best article I have read. To be shared

    157. manandboy says:

      It has been obvious till now, but it has become crystal clear since the letters saga, with May defiantly declaring that she will not be leaving No10, that the Tories and their advisors have a plan which is absolutely dependent on still being in government till after March 29th at 11pm next year.

      What this is we don’t yet know, but it is a surefire certainty it will be the start of Scotland’s newest nightmare.

      It goes almost without saying, that it will be a direct consequence of the No vote in 2014. So, in advance, our thoughts are with all the No voters, together with those who didn’t vote. Don’t say you weren’t warned.

    158. Luigi says:

      I’m waiting to hear the official EU view on Scottish independence after the BRINO galactofudge concludes. Will the EU still open to welcoming us as an independent nation? Perhaps not. They may come out in support of May.

      We will know by then if it has been a fix all along.

    159. Dr Jim says:

      I think of the EU like a business, if it can get what it wants from Theresa May then fine they’ll welcome that for now, if Scotland becomes Independent they’ll welcome us just the same if the business model stacks up

      The difference is when Scotland becomes Independent we decide what we buy sell and trade and the price we’re prepared to pay for the deals we do

      At the moment Scotland gets to decide nothing

    160. Tinto Chiel says:

      Indycargordon in good form, Nana. Thanks for that.If only we had TV companies which allowed people like him to express their views freely and encourage debate. Democracy and good sense might break out.

      And the usual Labour perfidy in Wales, it seems. Their assembly will now be gutted and “control will be taken back” to WM.

      Tricky Dickie’s dream for our parliament too.

      Blue Tories and Red Tories, that’s all there are.

    161. mike cassidy says:

      Link to the Times article assessing the Scottish tory mps


    162. Frank Gillougley says:

      Forgive me for stating the bleedin’ obvious but surely, all can see that the FM’s tour of Westminster and continuing playing out of political dead-ends is primarily so that she can be seen to be a POSITIVE and REASONABLE politician by those swithering naysayers. While the fall-out continues, she is gathering votes and waits for the moment.

      Apologies if slightly OT, but I felt it important as another facet of drip drip drip propaganda to lift our noses from the daily grindstone (for a moment of light relief) and imagine a culture beyond unionist propaganda and its propagandists. This brief cursory list came to mind last night: of the ‘cultural’ institutions and figureheads that have oppressed the Scottish ‘psyche’ in my memory. Obviously, it could be substantially added to by your very own bête noires. Of course, there are notable political omissions, but that’s democracy for you. We will always have our detractors.

      They think it’s all over…It is now! (and in no particular order)

      David Dimbleby No more.
      Neil Oliver No more.
      Dan Snow No more.
      Bob Geldof No more.
      JK Rowling No more.
      Last Night of the Proms No more.
      Land of Hope and Glory No more.
      Gilbert and Sullivan No more.
      Horse of the Year Show No more.
      The Royal Variety Performance No more.
      The University Boat Race No more.
      Any Royal Wedding No more.
      Nicholas Witchell No more.
      The Scotsman No more.
      The Herald No more.
      The Record No more.
      SiU No more.
      Cricket results No more.
      Union Jacks No more.
      Reporting Scotland No more.
      The Westminster Circus No more.
      House of Commons No more.
      House of Lords No more.
      Toodleoothenoo No more.
      Jackie Bird No more.
      Sally Magnusson No more.
      John Humphrys No more.
      Radio Shortbread No more.
      Call Kaye No more.
      John Curtice No more.
      Andrew Neil No more.
      Question Time No more.

      Just think, what a wonderful world it would be…

    163. manandboy says:

      The Tipping Point article above is a marvellous piece. Thanks to Dave McEwan Hill.

      It’s a reminder that the sovereignty of the Scottish people is already being exercised – by the No voters and those who don’t vote. Brainwashed into self-harming. What a triumph for British propaganda.

      Oh how England detests us.

    164. mike cassidy says:

      Worth remembering.

      “Truth aint a rabbit.

      A trick that you pull from a hat”

    165. Les Wilson says:

      Just watched Gordon Ross’s latest Indycar broadcast, have to say I really like Gordon and what he does. He works hard to bring us what we need to know.
      We need to give him even more recognition for all his hard work.

    166. Nana says:

      Morning Tinto,

      Labour perfidy everywhere.

      I spotted a tweet by an Englishman saying something like “if only Corbyn had a smidgen of Sturgeon’s political acumen, we would not be in this mess”

      Goodness, the comments below were a sight to behold, fear and loathing in equal measure.

    167. Breeks says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      21 November, 2018 at 9:14 am
      Just about the best article I have read. To be shared

      Yup. There’s some very good stuff being written at the moment.

      Let’s hope it doesn’t fall on deaf ears.

    168. Les Wilson says:

      Frank Gillougley says:
      Well said Frank, if we could get shot of these people from our lives, we would sleep better at night.
      However your list is only really the start……

    169. Nana says:

      I’m Labour supporter and Jeremy Corbyn fan but watching her operate in UKParl confirmed what I’ve felt for some time that in terms of all round political skills the most effective politician in UK by far is @NicolaSturgeon.Stand by for barrage,SNP for first words Labour for last!

    170. Nana says:

      Malcolm Chisholm says

      I’m Labour supporter and Jeremy Corbyn fan but watching her operate in UKParl confirmed what I’ve felt for some time that in terms of all round political skills the most effective politician in UK by far is @NicolaSturgeon.Stand by for barrage,SNP for first words Labour for last!

    171. Jock McDonnell says:

      ‘Why should we differentiate between teachers on different grades’ says the union rep on GMS – thereby missing the point of different grades. He’s a teacher, apparently.

    172. Capella says:

      I just got round to reading Wull’s latest from the previous thread. I do agree with his assessment of what is going on in Westminster. It is a coup. A right wing coup IMO. These neo-fascist revolutionary movements are emerging everywhere, the USA, Hungary, Poland, Brazil, the AdF in Germany etc. Our Tory UKIP version is par for the course.

      We need to keep calm and focused and not be diverted by propaganda stunts such as that SiU “poll” currently fuelling the MSM, or an organised teachers’ strike courtesy Richard Leonard and his Labourite friends, or the smearing of Alex Salmond and anyone else who draws the venom of the Establishment.

      The monopoly corporations of the Internet are busy closing down critics of the status quo. It is quite possible that this will spread to Scotland and the paltry access we currently have to media of any kind. It will need all of us to carry on converting the ill informed one-by one.

      Don’t forget that WoS articles can be downloaded as pdfs and printed off or emailed.

      Here’s the link to Wull’s post for those who missed it.

    173. Fred says:

      @ Dave & Nana, the Orkney News excellent stuff!

    174. Ken500 says:

      The Times no wanting to go the same way as the Scotsman. The Tory shambles.

      Next they will be publishing the accounts, They once did, showing Scotland would be better off Independent.

      McKenna gives the excuse for the ‘journalists’. They might need a job in a unionists paper. Lying for the Union while people get sanctioned and starved.

      Iraq, Lockerbie, Dunblane kept secret for 100 years.

      May let off the hook. None of them want the poisoned chalice. Corbyn doesn’t turn up to vote. The total chaos.

    175. Marcia says:

      I see from the Rev’s twitter thing that Everard Farquharson of the Times in Scotland is now saying that the 13 Tory MP’s elected in 2016 are useless. We knew that from day 1 of them being elected. An unlucky number for us.

    176. Ken500 says:

      Just don’t watch or listen to the BBC unless it is necessary. Parliamentary Channel to see what the bastards are doing,

      Other sources viewing must be up. Thank goodness for some of the internet.

    177. Frank Gillougley says:

      Re the Orkney News article by Alec Ross. (thanks for the link – he’s a very good straightforward writer which is rare)

      ”I am now more convinced than ever that we will living in an independent Scotland very soon indeed. One of the reasons I think that is because there will probably be a general election soon. There has been much debate about the timing of the next referendum, but if there’s a general election we don’t need one. We simply write the shortest manifesto in history and it will state that if we win a majority of MPs (30) then that in itself is a mandate for independence and we walk. It gets ratified by the UN – many countries achieved their independence by this method – and there’s no need for a vote organised by an undemocratic and mendacious establishment that largely exists to thwart self-governance and which is already dismantling Scottish democracy through the power grab and which would happily suspend or even abolish the Scottish Parliament under existing emergency legislation on the premise of Brexit.”

    178. Ken500 says:

      Not exactly a coup. More like a shambles. Total chaos. They can’t even organise a coup. They are hoping Labour get the Brexit Bill through and support May. The Tories do not have the numbers, vote Labour get Tory and vice versus. All in it together. A complete and utter shambles. None of them have a clue.

      Trying to be in EU with privileges and out with privileges.

      They will be out of the EU decision making but in on the rules and resposibilities. Paying more, Just a bunch of losers. The people want to stay in.

      May and the worst deal.

    179. Breastplate says:

      The link that Dave McEwan Hill and Nana put up at 9:38am should be widely read and distributed.

    180. Macart says:

      @DMH and Nana

      Good catch with the Orkney news piece and a good read.

    181. PMQ`s should be fun today,

      also today,

      `Second Reading of the Fisheries Bill 2017-19 will take place in the House of Commons on 21 November 2018. The Bill will allow the UK to manage fisheries within its territorial waters once it has left the Commons Fisheries Policy.`

    182. Dr Jim says:

      *Most jobs in Britain could be done by 11 year olds that’s why it’s such an attractive place to come to* says *Journalist* on Adam Boulton Sky news

      See I agree with that, most *journalists* jobs could be done by 11 year olds

    183. Frank Gillougley says:

      Thank you Nana, for opening doors for me.
      – Indefatigable, to borrow a word.

    184. Luigi says:


      You’re on a roll today. Well done. 🙂

    185. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      21 November, 2018 at 8:38 am

      Earlier this morning the Daily Telegraph online had their lead story of Spain saying they would not veto an independent Scotland’s membership of the EU.

      It has slipped down a wee bit now but still there – behind a pay Wall so no link.

    186. Bobp says:

      Most people keep saying ,we need a referendum to gain independence. A general election is just another name for a referendum, without the rigging by the establishment. So Scots will still get to democratically vote on independence. So a snap GE, a manifesto by the SNP that if elected they will disolve the union. This would be accepted by the UN as this is totally legitimate.

    187. Bobp says:

      Sorry,dissolve the union.

    188. McBoxheid says:

      Dr Jim says:
      21 November, 2018 at 11:10 am

      *Most jobs in Britain could be done by 11 year olds that’s why it’s such an attractive place to come to* says *Journalist* on Adam Boulton Sky news

      See I agree with that, most *journalists* jobs could be done by 11 year olds
      After Brexit, who knows. It might once again become acceptable for 11 year olds to work as chimney sweeps and all those other places where adults have problems reaching. Child benefit for over tens would become unnecessary. Win-win for Tories advocates of victorian values, eh!

    189. Nana says:

      You are welcome Frank.

      just saw this

      Expert witnesses at @CommonsEUexit have just confirmed to me that this means preferential tariff free access for fish caught by NI registered #fishing vessels under #backstop. A significant #Brexit blow for #Scottish #fishing industry.

      link to Kirsty Hughes comment
      see here

      Right now it is difficult to keep up, this Brexit malarkey is a beast to keep track of.

    190. hackalumpoff says:

      This is really shocking, 1 hours work in a fortnight means you are employed !

    191. Legerwood says:

      Simon Curran @ 6.20 am.

      Clearly I should have said that teachers on the Main Scale in state schools in England, which is where the bulk of teachers are in the state system in both England and Scotland, will receive a 3.5% pay increase. Those in the upper ranges will get 2% and the top scale 1%.

      In Scotland a similar approach has been taken, that is higher increases for those on the main scale and lower rises for those on the upper and top scales.

      Still would leave teachers in state schools in Scotland with higher salaries compared to their counterparts in the state system down south.

      The academy and free school systems do not operate in Scotland so cannot compare their salary provision

      And yes the series of strikes/industrial actions that have occurred in Scotland in recent years do have more than a whiff of the political about them.

    192. @Frank Gillougley,

      most of your list are employed by and promoted by the state run BBC,

      the BBC is the source of all propaganda and misinformation attacking Scotland and her citizens.

    193. Luigi says:

      Bobp says:

      21 November, 2018 at 11:30 am

      Most people keep saying ,we need a referendum to gain independence. A general election is just another name for a referendum, without the rigging by the establishment. So Scots will still get to democratically vote on independence. So a snap GE, a manifesto by the SNP that if elected they will disolve the union. This would be accepted by the UN as this is totally legitimate.

      My only concern, Bobp, is that a GE would exclude 16-17 year olds, and many EU citizens – two potentially strong YES groups. Possibly we could win a mandated GE vote without them. I just don’t know. Hopefully the SG have done the intel. 🙂

    194. winifred mccartney says:

      It is not just a political whiff – it is a positive stink – take GCC the snp come in and try to do the right thing by the women who for 10 years labour and the fragrant Leonard were determined to avoid paying equal pay – indeed took them through the courts and spent millions doing so in lawyers fees to stop them getting equal pay. Then the unions demand snp controlled council pays up but wont give them the full information to do so.

      In the meantime, North Lanarkshire and Ayrshire and some other Labour controlled councils do not go on strike but still have not got equal pay for women. These women in Glasgow have been treated disgracefully by labour and continue to be used as a political football and lose pay in the meantime. Can labour explain why labour controlled councils were not on strike????

      Now we have the teachers unions winding everyone up but no action from Labour in England, and don’t tell me labour in Scotland is separate from Labour in England, RL was a London placement, and the latest spin doctor for him has just been sent from London because obviously RL is not capable.

      Then we have Monica Lennon still smearing AS despite the fact she refuses to name the labour person who sexually abused her in full view of others, and they all share a platform with someone who used abused his power and the victim of his abuse was unable to go forward with complaints. Hypocritical does not come near describing labour in Scotland, still abusing power with no care at all for anyone.

    195. Luigi says:

      I suppose if we lost a mandated GE vote narrowly, we still get another crack at the whip on the basis that 16-17 year olds and EU citizens were excluded and hold an indy referendum shortly after.

      There would be ferocious BroitNat opposition, however.

    196. Bobp says:

      Luigi 11.52am. Sorry luigi, I never took the 16/17 yr olds vote into consideration. I thought eu nationals could already vote at this moment in time.

    197. Cubby says:

      In response to a question about why was the £40 billion payment to the EU never mentioned prior to the EU referendum. Liz Truss Tory MP says Britain is a country that fufills it obligations. Yes to pay EU pensions but not to the Waspi women pensions.

      This is no ordinary Brexit this a Tory Brexit. Tories pissing off everyone in the country including other Tories. They are not just monsters they are incompetent monsters.

    198. call me dave says:

      At the moment everything in our favour is against us with too many issues clouding the main prize.

      GE or Indiref2 and the court cases looming maybe it is better to see the entrails then decide.

      Not watching PMQ’s today just scunnered with all the crap from darn Sarf. I’ll see later how May gets on across the channel.

      PS: or chill out and watch Scotland V Sweden at the world curling live. Good game a few ends to go!

    199. Luigi says:

      Bobp says:

      21 November, 2018 at 12:08 pm

      Not sure how many EU citizens would be excluded – a fair few, I imagine.

    200. Cubby says:

      PMs questions today.

      The very first question.

      Clueless Tories never seem to look at a map. First MP from Romford Essex Tory diddy states that the UK is a “Cherished island nation”. Northern Ireland you prick is on a different island. These people from down south never seem to be very good on geography. Anything up north is beyond them. Often heard them calling England an island but calling the UK an island is a new one for me.

      After over 300 years most Britnsts do not know what their precious Union is. Some particularly dumb Britnats -Essex – think the UK is England and both the UK and England are islands.

      I suppose stupid mistakes makes a change from their usual lies. People vote for these morons.

    201. Dr Jim says:


      Ian Blackford finally asks his question after the usual ill mannered braying and guffawing from the Tories who had to be silenced yet again by the speaker

      And the answer from the PM (paraphrased) *You voted to be part of the UK for all time and don’t get to say anything ever again so yer Fcked stick that in your Scotland and smoke it*

    202. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@12.30pm

      I don’t know why she even bothers replying to Blackford. She would be quicker conveying her message by just sticking up two fingers at him ( not the Churchill version – the other one).

    203. Fred says:

      @ Nana, Michael Matheson article puts a good back story to what for me was a face!

    204. Breeks says:

      hackalumpoff says:
      21 November, 2018 at 11:34 am
      This is really shocking, 1 hours work in a fortnight means you are employed !

      Rejoice! Employment is at its lowest in 40 years!

      Aye, no fecking wonder. It’s only a matter of time before the Tories declare those on benefits as non-sentient beings which cannot feel pain, just like UK livestock.

    205. McBoxheid says:

      The foreign Secretary has just said that without british sales of weapons to Saudi Arabia, Britain would not have an interest in trying to get the belligerent parties together in Stockholm and could not therefore try to get the sides to talk to each other.

      So it is more important to sell arms to keep their vested interests and influence in the region, because without those arms sales, they have no influence?

      All the more reason to stop selling arms I would have thought.
      Germany decided to stop all arms deals with Saudi Arabia, including current contracts yesterday, because of the desperate humanitarian crisis in the Yemen, but The UK foreign minister thinks it is really tragic but doesn’t see the necessity to do the same. Quite the contrary, he thinks it is more important to facilitate this disaster, less they loose influence.

    206. McBoxheid says:

      last sentence..lest they loose influence.

    207. Lochside says:

      When is Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP going to get tired of Shadow Boxing over our Nation’s sovereignty?

      The managerial, line by line approach might suit the legal administrative mindset of the SNP hierarchy, but it cuts little ice with the majority of the non politically motivated electors. Blackford’s ‘Grand old Duke ‘ act of marching out of the Common’s caused a flurry of excitement and SNP membership upward blip ,but the embers of hope died the minute he and the MPs went back into the big Tent.

      All the constitutional wrangling through the Court of Session and the feeble attempt to usurp the English ‘Supreme Court’ is patently pointless. The latter can and will play for time and ignore any decision or ruling in Scottish or European courts.

      Nicola Sturgeon knows this. Yet despite the obvious charade that she is participating in with May and her cohorts, she persists in stalling the rousing required of the Scottish Electorate to demand Independence.

      Why?..does she not understand that consciousness raising is a given for any campaign?..Where is the fight, the outrage over our shaming by the English and their caledonian acolytes?..Day in and day out we are treated as less than dirt and all we see is tweets and appeals for ‘fairness’ and ‘to be heard’.

      Scotland the Brave traduced into a cowardly timorous beastie.
      Most people are being seduced by the Wesminster miasma of lies and obfuscation. A deliberate hypnotising double talk charade designed to soothe them into a coma of complacency.

      Do we really think that a rising of angry ordinary Scots is imminent? Just because 100,000 turned up in Edinburgh doesn’t necessarily translate into a sweep of SNP victories. Remember Glasgow Rangers took 200,000 people to Manchester for a football match.

      We can only win legitimately by the old agreed route; a General Election majority of Independence DEMANDING MPs elected as the UK Constitution demands, at least at present, being the representative democratic individuals of the people. Our MPs are the only legitimate voice that can demand the dissolution of the Act of Union, the only one worth challenging.

      Forget Brexit, it’s happening. Let’s break up the Union of Parliaments and the detestable British State now before it’s too late. In order to achieve this , the SNP/SG must focus on the people of Scotland and work with the ‘YES’ movement to educate and consciousness raise the general public of our country of our chance of seizing our destiny in the probable next GE.

    208. Moone says:

      @Lochside Perhaps she’s been got at by MI5 and is now under their control? I think they tried to do it with sexual harassment allegations in order to control Alex Salmond.

    209. geeo says:

      More nutjobs claiming SNP failures….deary me..
      Not got a clue.

      Hang around peeps, all shall become clear enough, soon enough.

      The more desperate they become, the more desperate the utter crap they post becomes.

      The upcoming constitutional change will come to a big surprise to these nuggets, but not to any Indy supporters, who are not fooled by their nonsensicle whimpering.

    210. Ottomanboi says:

      Exactly, the softly, softly theme is becoming tiresome. As Craig Murray intimates on his blog independence needs to come out of the wings and be brought back centre stage. Whether by referendum, Holyrood or Westminster elections the important business of national sovereignty and independence must be ahead of all other concerns.
      The SNP, in cooperation with the wider national movement, needs to mount an articulated propaganda offensive against the status quo. We do have a file against the system some three centuries thick.
      More verve, imagination and tech. skill are needed. Our leaders and politicians need to stop acting like ‘cushy jobs for lifers’, besides that they are not infallible. The old boy Westminster conventions should not apply in what is a constitutional mess ripe for intelligent exploitation.
      Nicola Sturgeon might start by addressing her faithful, before that faithful turns sceptical, agnostic or worse.

    211. TheItalianJob says:

      Report in the Dail Mail on inside page small article with the Headline “Go it along Scots would be welcome in EU says Spain”. As previously reported a quote be the Spanish Foreign Minister Josep Borrell.

      Of course finishes the article by stating “A new Sturvation poll (by SIU) has shown 60% of people in Scotland would vote to remain in the U.K. in a referendum”. “Results also shoe 28% of Yes voters in 2014 would back remain, while 15% of former No voters would choose to leave”.

      They would report this which of course has been de-bunked by Scot goes Pop website.

      We need to choose the right time to call an second Independence ref and the SNP will best decide that and not people on here who have no inside or working knowledge of the SG and WM SNP MEPs and MPs as the SNP elected members have.

    212. orri says:

      The SNP seem determined to give Westminster as many chances to change course as possible. Note Westminster and not a carefully selected message from Scottish unionist parties to Scotland. It’s on a UK, if not worldwide, stage. There’s little to no chance they’ll be able to play any of their promising the world next time.

      The only danger is that Scotland or the UK may actually remain in an EFTA type relationship. If not then the SNP will have demonstrably done their best for Scotland despite the impact that might have on their ambition for independence.

    213. Petra says:

      Apologies for not replying to anyone who responded to any of my posts recently. Sorry I’ve been really busy.

      Thanks for the great links Nana.

      When are the Scottish fishermen going to waken up?

      @ Nana says at 11:33am …. Expert witnesses at @CommonsEUexit have just confirmed to me that this means preferential tariff free access for fish caught by NI registered #fishing vessels under #backstop. A significant #Brexit blow for #Scottish #fishing industry. Link to Kirsty Hughes comment – see here.


      To my mind this is just an example of unfinished business that could impact on the level of support that we get in Indyref2.

      What’s the point of Nicola Sturgeon calling for anything right now when every day brings a new revelation.

    214. Dr Jim says:

      See if that SNP don’t get me Independence by tomorrow afternoon (after 3pm coz I pick up the kids then) I’m gonnae vote for another party that’ll get me, Oooh! eh, well …..

      Sumdy better dae sumthin or ..or ..or well sumthin….jist sayin

    215. scottish blue eyes says:

      i sent a question to one poll origanisation as they were asking what you would vote in another referendum . yes or no . simple poll but it was for the whole of the uk not just scotland . so how could that get a fair poll as england does not get to vote in our referendum for freedom .. their answer was we do not have the facility to do that . that being scottish people only voting .eh what .

    216. geeo says:

      We now have wings desperado band of yoonionistas talking amongst themselves in a ‘desperately seeking relevence’ effort…!

      All they do is make their side of the debate look ridiculous.

      “Why are the ESSENPEE not doing something”?

      Answer: they are, you just ain’t listening.

    217. TJenny says:

      Dr Jim- or they’ll scweam and scweam and scweam until they’r sick – or we are. 😉

    218. Thepnr says:


      One of the best links that Nana posted today about fishing and the Tories was this one.

      You might have listened already but if not I suggest you do. It’s Gary Robertson interviewing Tory MP David Duguid on GMS and what a car crash interview for the Tory it is.

      He doesn’t have a clue and this becomes obvious shortly after the interview starts. 10 minutes long but really worth listening to to get an idea of the complete incompetence of Scots Tories.

    219. Ghillie says:

      Thepnr @ 6.22pm onwards and Petra @ 10.03 pm onwards and others =)


      Nicola Sturgeon impressive in Westminster yesterday, as so often she is.

      Knocks their socks off every time our First Minister ventures South 🙂

      She and her team are formidable. They know exactly what they doing.

      The information coming to the fore because of our SNP MPs’s interventions and questions and through Nicola’s speeches and interviews that would otherwise be hidden is informing a growing number of folk North and South of the Border.

      And a population that is well informed is what we need and should want before that important question is asked again.

      Shed the fear and hold.

    220. Petra says:

      @ Thepnr at 5:48pm ……”Duguid.”

      I just listened to the programme Thepnr and what a load of chancers. They know full well that T May will sell the Scottish fishermen out at the drop of a hat. They’re Scottish after all. Car crash interview right enough and you’ll have noticed that he got into a right tizzy when he was asked about smaller boats getting larger quotas. The Scottish Tories no doubt in league with the 5 families, millionaires, that are controlling the Scottish fishing industry, so “I better no say anything to annoy them.”

      Then he went on about the fishing industry being devolved. Gary Robertson should have put it to him that the Tories want control over the area (and others) for 7 years following Brexit, as if Duguid didn’t know.

      Now we’re hearing that NIreland will be getting tariff free access which will be detrimental for Scottish fishermen. Even before this latest announcement was made some of them, the Scots, seem to have forgotten that it’s not just about catching fish, you have to sell them.

      Meanwhile it’s all the BBC and STV report on as it’s the only aspect of Brexit that they can use to promote the Scottish Tories. Let’s see if they report on the latest “fishy” news.


      @ Ghillie at 6:23pm …. Nicola / Westminster.”

      I missed that Ghillie which is annoying as I’ve read that she was really inspirational. No surprises there for us right enough.


      @ Lochside at 2:17pm …..

      “Day in and day out we are treated less than dirt.”

      And no doubt more and more Scots can see that, Lochside.

      “We can only win legitimately by the old agreed route a General Election majority of Independence DEMANDING MPs…”

      Won’t we be disadvantaged by 16/17 year old and EU Nationals being barred from voting? And if we can’t prove that over 50% of sovereign Scots want Independence isn’t that a recipe for disaster?

    221. Thepnr says:


      Craig Murray who I’ve met and like just the other day tweeted something similar about not needing a referendum in order to gain Independence. He mentioned Croatia and Latvia as being two of those countries.

      He conveniently fails to mention the subsequent Latvian war of Independence which lasted two years or the Balkan wars that Croatia fought against the Serbs and was even worse for the Bosnians.

      Yes you can have your Independence without a referendum but it will come at a price. A very high price and if you do not have the support of the majority of the population at the start of that process you will be unlikely to remain “Independent” for very long.

    222. Petra says:

      Spot on Thepnr. I admire Craig Murray greatly in relation to his whistleblowing activities but when it comes to supporting independence you can forget it. He runs one of the most influential sites in Scotland and imo could have done more, MUCH MUCH more, to support independence but for some reason or another he hasn’t. I’ve got an opinion as to the reason /s but won’t outline them on here.

      I’ve followed his blogs and he’s an absolute loose cannon. One who seems to advocate a course of action, even by using illegal means as he says, that could lead to Civil War in Scotland. Anyone with a modicum of sense, forget about intelligence, knows that we need a majority of Scots on our side. Sad to say he could have been the catalyst for that along with people like Stu Campbell. He decided not to be whilst Stu has stayed the ‘independence’ course.

    223. Lochside says:

      ‘Dr’ Jim, your attempt at sarcasm is poor and misplaced. I remain a member of the SNP. However, unlike you and the mini me troll, Geeo (how’s Heedracker doing?) may want to lick the boots of the party bosses until the next millenium awaiting a referendum, which the New UK world order will never allow, but I and others on here and out on the streets are sick of the supinity of the party in face of the inexorable and inevitable ‘deal’ being teased out by the EU and May.

      I well remember the same frantic assurances that all would be well in the lead up to the Referendum from the usual suspects on here in the face of SNP silence in the onslaught of Better Together’s wall of media lies. That turned out alright didn’t it?

      Why so many on here are defensive to the point of stupidity about the fact that our options are being shut down without a whimper.
      A referendum?…..when and how?…..a GE…more likely, but how many people undecided are convinced of the Indy argument that has been buried under the Brexit bullshit distraction?

      And as for the idea that a majority of seats won in a general election seeking Independence would lead to a ‘civil war’, well I suggest that you are all falling into Loyalist/Tory propaganda. The same propaganda that said that a deal had to be struck because of N.I.’s bloody history, but for the opposite reason for Scotland not to have a deal.

      If sections of the Scottish public do not accept the democratic result…based on the UK’S EXISTING BASIS for elections, then our police should be be expected to act accordingly. The only violence could come from the already existing suspects on the right. Are we that weak? If you fear our Freedom being won because of a minority of deluded loyalist, then face up to it. They will be there whichever way we win.

    224. Thepnr says:


      Who would you define as the “Scottish people”? If the majority of Scottish people want Independence they will have it.

      Or are you arguing that a minority of the Scottish people should take control anyway through whatever means?

    225. Dr Jim says:


      So you’re going to do what? Apart from tell me you want to threaten people with something, like silent internet noise then be faux outraged at reality when there’s nothing you can or will do about it, because if you were one of those guys you wouldn’t be on Wings telling folk about it because the guys who do that sort of thing don’t tell people about it publicly

      Also do you not know who the police work for, it’s not us you know because at this moment Scotland is not an Independent country it’s under the control of the British crown

      I don’t like it, you don’t like it, but shouting angrily at me for having a sense of humour about it won’t make it happen, there’s only one way it will and that’s with the SNP because there’s nobody else, so sorry mate you’re on their timetable not your own, and if you don’t like it, just like me you can do sod all about it but have patience, and like me, you’ll wait, but try and wait less angrily

    226. Cubby says:

      There was no referendum to take Scotland in to the Treaty of Union.

      There was no referendum to take the UK into the EU ( EEC).

      There is no process in the Treaty of Union for terminating the Union.

      There is a process for the UK to leave the EU.

      So who is deciding that a referendum is required to terminate the Treaty of Union and when was this added to the Treaty of Union.

      It is the norm for international treaties to be terminated by the representatives of the country.

    227. Thepnr says:


      You need to come right out with it and state clearly what you mean. You don’t so I’ll ask.

      Are you saying that if the SNP got say 40% of the vote in an election either for Holyrood or Westminster then Scotland should declare itself Independent?

      By the way 40% of the vote might be something like 33% of the electorate, that way lies madness. Scotland can only become Independent when it’s people you, I and the No voters decide it shold become Independent.

      No voters are Scots as well and if we fail to persuade them that Scotland should be an Independent country then taht is our failure. They are Scots as much as we are, the fact they don’t see Independence as we do is not their fault it’s ours.

      Let’s expend our energy on changing the minds of as many as we can and not on some fantasy that gifts Scotland Independence because the SNP win more seats than anybody else.

      In fact that is totally ridiculous and I can say for certain I would NOT support a Scotland that gained it’s Independence going down that route.

      How could Scotland possibly be a better country if that’s how they began life? It’s total fantasy anyway and why people peddle this idea is beyond me. Count me out.

      We win Independence through the support of the majority of the Scottish people. That’s it, there is no other way.

    228. twathater says:

      WOW just listened to that interview with Duguid I am sure his constituents will be reassured by another tory with nae spine , Robertson was nearly half decent in his interviewing technique he almost got carried away , then he remembered that it might affect any promotion so reverted back to the soft pedal

      If I were Duguid I would hide from my constituents for a while , long enough for them to try and forget what a total tube and sellout I am

      Hey fishermen wae wee boats this tube has just told yeese that there will be no fair distribution of catches the big I ams the rich families have the power and we tories need to look after them

    229. Cubby says:


      Thanks for your comments. I will read again when I have more time and possibly give a fuller response. In the meantime I will say I’m glad to see you did not dispute what I believe I was doing which was stating facts.

      Another fact I could have included is that there was a referendum in 1979 in Scotland that had the result( 52/48) in favour of a Scottish parliament but devolution was rejected by those who make the rules ( British Labour Party) for 20 years. This of course is the same result as the EU ref that is now deemed to be the will of the people but was not the will of the Scottish people in 1979.

      I could also have stated the fact that Scotland voted to remain in the EU by a considerable margin but is being taken out of the EU.

      There is no constitution in the UK and rules are made by whom?

      What is to stop Westminster decreeing that Indyref2 needs 65% of the POPULATION to be valid. Indyref3 could then be 75% of the POPULATION,

      Westminster style democracy for Scotland is not to my liking.

    230. Ghillie says:

      Cubby. Fear not.

      We have come a long way since those days.

      Westminster does not hold the folk of Scotland in awe.

      We are way better informed (thank you the SNP and Rev Stu for starers) than ever before.

      Scotland IS finding its way forward.

      Westminster style democracy is no democracy at all.

      WE know that!

      And WE know we are are on Scotland’s road to Independence 🙂

    231. Lochside says:

      Dr Jim,
      I’d like to respond to you. But I don’t understand your incoherent response. I stated clearly that I want our Independence to reclaimed by Parliamentary democracy as it currently exists. I didn’t ‘threaten’ anyone. I didn’t shout ‘angrily’..I chided you for your poor sense of humour and sarcasm.And I don’t know what the hell you are on about regarding ‘coming on wings’ etc. I have been coming on Wings for years.

      Cubby has followed up with more expansion of what I was talking about. We are not defined by one failed referendum. One that was dubious in the extreme in its process and in its outcome.

      You and others on here seem to think you have some entitlement to the only acceptable voice of Independence on here. Shouting down those of us who don’t conform with your particular blind loyalty does you no favours.BTW Thepnr whatever happened to the radical contributor who used to be?

    232. Ghillie says:

      Lochside, I know we are all on the same side =)

      All on Wings, and I’m pretty sure the majority in Scotland want Independence. (Frankly I think half of England are keen to join us too!)

      I KNOW the thepnr LIVES for Independence for Scotland!!! ( that and the people he loves)

      We will find our way by different roads that will converge when it comes to the crunch.

      And oh! What a grand ceilidh that will be 🙂

      You dancing?

      PS Cactus and FOLK! Can we gather for the 30th? St Andy’s ready for a wee bit of a hooly 🙂

    233. Thepnr says:


      I’m still the same person just swear a lot less. I didn’t think that was helping too much now that there are not many left that we need to win over. Or maybe I’m just getting older and have calmed down a bit.

      I do know though for certain that we all just want the same thing and might differ in our opinions as to how we get there. That’s got to be good else it would be a pretty boring newly Independent country we made.

      Where I have never changed is in my belief that to get where we want to go then we need to take the majority with us. That’s all of us, a simple majority putting an X in a box, I do think doing it that way will prevent a lot of grief and starting out as that newly Independent country we really don’t want to be dealing with grief if we can avoid it.

      I see No voters as those that are yet to be convinced, nothing more. I even have some in my own family and I doubt they would be happy if some Yes voters told them that that’s it, we’re taking over and you’ll just have to suck it up. Nah that’s not going to work out very well.

    234. Ghillie says:

      Thepnr, you are wise beyond your years =)

    235. Bobp says:

      ” 40% of the vote might be 33% of the electorate”. If its good enough for the tories in england, its good enough for the SNP. At least it will be democratic and encourage Scotland to get off its a”e and vote one way or the other.

    236. Robert Louis says:

      Theonr and others,

      I understand you suggesting that you cannot have independence with only say, 40% of the vote, but their is a problem with that logic.

      If for example they were to say, a majority of SNP MP’s will mean independence, then of course they would not have over 50% of the Scottish vote. BUT, and it is a big BUT, government are decided no on share of vote, but on seats. This is why unionists like to rant on about vote share, knowing full well that is not the criteria for forming a government.

      So, to take this further, imagine a Scottish parliamentary election, where the SNP said loudly, vote for us and we’ll make Scotland independent. The votes come in, and whilst not getting over 50% of the vote, the SNP have the most seats. As a government they are then entitled to implement their policies. That is how democracy works.

      So, whilst I do get your ‘taking the people with you’ argument, the fact is, that NO government could ever implement policies, if they always needed greater than 50% vote share.

      As an aside, your comments regarding other countries ending with civil war,, are you seriously suggesting that could happen in Scotland? If not, then it isn’t a rational argument.

      I don’t completely disagree with what you say, but the real issue right now, is that the SNP are simply NOT making the case for independence at every opportunity they get on the media. I see them interviewed, sometimes live, and they just aren’t. They talk of getting ready, and making plans, but if they were serious about pursuing independence, then it must be said they have had 4 years to ‘make plans and ‘get ready’.

      My concern, is I do detect an element of some in the SNP being quite comfortable, and using things like ‘we need the perfect time’ or ‘we need the polls to be showing a continuous sustained majority in favour etc’, as a means of justifying the status quo. If the SNP do not call indyref before brexit, then IMHO, they will have betrayed those who voted for and trusted them.. When Alex Salmond was FM, when he called the referendum, he had no idea how events would transpire by the time of the actual vote, but he didn’t dither, ‘waiting for the perfect time’. He had a democratic mandate and he used it.

      Perhaps if the SNP were more vocally speaking up about how independence is a REAL option for Scotland, then I might lose some of my mistrust, but right now, I am starting to doubt them. I do not doubt that NS wants independence, but that is almost neither here nor there – of course she does.

      They need to speak up, if they want within the near future to put independence back on the agenda as far as the public are concerned. The arguments for Scottish independence will be much harder to make, once brexit happens, especially if it is very bad. People will be afraid, and will resist change of any kind. Besides Westminster is showing every sing of not even allowing indyref (with or without section 30) after brexit. Troops on streets seem to be the plan, oh, and closing Holyrood – just like they regularly do with Stormont. Once it is closed what do you do? Write an angry letter to the PM?? No, it will be too, too late.

    237. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Louis

      I’ll be blunt, I am seriously suggesting that a takeover without majority support would lead to something akin to civil war.

      OK it might not look like Croatia but it definitely could look like Ireland in the 70’s and 80’s. The thing is you can’t just demand Independence you have to win it. All the talk of “sovereign” Scots means ALL Scots, not 45% of them.

      Want to know the first think that would happen if Scotland declared UDI without the backing of at least 50% of its people? In my view the troops from England would be on the streets in support of the majority of Scots who don’t want Independence. That’s what would happen.

      Holyrood would be closed down, the leaders of the SNP thrown in jail and know what else. In the eyes of the rest of the world they would be justified in doing so because a majority of Scots haven’t asked for Independence they would have rejected it.

      So this is my point Robert, Scotland belongs to ALL of us and that includes those that don’t want Independence as well as those that do. We’d be better spending our time in winning them over to our point of view and gaining their support than we would be in dictating to them that it’s my way or the highway.

      Put it this way, if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a staunch Unionist do you think I’d just accept UDI with less than 50% support in Scotland? I’d say then that you were being ridiculous because I most definitely would not accept it.

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m with Thepnr, it needs a majority of the electorate (who turn out to vote). That’s democracy, warts and all. The minority can’t impose their will on the majority, the majority, rightly, wouldn’t accept it.

    239. Xaracen says:

      Just a thought, but we are talking Scottish Parliament here.

      If the SNP gets an absolute majority in Holyrood, that is not just on the basis of FPTP votes, it is also on the basis of rather a lot of SNP list votes, do we not get to count those, too?

      Given that list votes are also a critical part of our democratic process, what justifies ignoring them in the calculation of democratic authority for UDI?

      If they get an absolute majority in parliament via a legitimate proportional representation election system, that is as legitimate as it is possible to get in a democracy, isn’t it?

      And that system was designed by Westminster, too! So they don’t get to refuse to recognise its legitimacy.

    240. Xaracen says:

      And it works the same way with a pro-indy coalition, too.

    241. geeo says:

      Not the UDI nonsense again…!

      Scotland is a COUNTRY NOT A REGION.

      UDI does not apply to Scotland, we fail the legal definition of UDI.

      UDI defined

      A unilateral declaration of independence(UDI) is a formal process leading to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign without a formal agreement with the national state from which it is seceding.

      If anyone thinks THAT applies to Scotland, i have bad news for you, you are on the wrong side of Scottish Independence.

      We as a country (note: NOT A REGION nor subnational entity) should NEVER aspire to the definition required to enable UDI.

    242. geeo says:

      Scotland needs only to dissolve the Treaty of Union.

      We can have a protective dissolution motion at Holyrood, caveated with an affirmation plebiscite later.

      The protective dissolution ends the treaty, rendering Scotland back to pre 1707 Treaty of union status.

      The Affirmation question then becomes as follows …

      1. Affirm the protective dissolution.

      2. Instruct the Scotsgov to try negotiate a new treaty of Union with WM, on terms favourable to Scotland.

      Should those negotiations (if requjred) fail, (no agreement with WM) then Scotland shall remain independent as per the political dissolution vote.

      Time limit the negotiations to say, 18 months.

      I doubt that any plebiscite would result in a new union demand, under that scenario.

      All the above is perfectly acceptable legally.

      The EU Continuity Bill enables that path to be taken, whichever way the judgement goes.

      Now is not the time (sic) to be maming huge and frankly, stupid errors like UDI nonsense.

    243. Xaracen says:

      OK, UDR, then. Unilateral Declaration of Revocation of the Treaty of Union 1706. Same difference, it is still unilateral, and it still needs the same mandate, but we shouldn’t be accepting Westminster’s framing of what the mandate needs to be.

      We need a Pro-Indy-Party absolute majority in the Holyrood Parliament to have the power to push it, and in a proportional representation election system then by definition that is a gold-standard democratic mandate right there.

      Am I wrong? And if so, where exactly?

    244. Petra says:

      ”We need a Pro-Indy-Party absolute majority in the Holyrood Parliament.”

      What we need is a Pro-indy absolute majority of sovereign Scots.

    245. Cubby says:

      This is just ridiculous – talk of UDI is just British Nationalist propaganda. Talking about civil wars is just British Nationalist propaganda to frighten people. It just shows how pervasive their propaganda is. If you believe this nonsense then you have been conditioned just like the pensioners who believed they would not get their pension after independence.

      Scotland is not Northern Ireland. Scotland is not Catalonia. Britnats want independence supporters to believe that is the case. There is a reason the Treaty is never mentioned anywhere.

      Scotland is an independent country whose representatives signed up to a union. There is no process for withdrawal from that treaty – so who should decide the rules for leaving. In my opinion it is the current elected representatives of the people of Scotland. It should not be anyone else. Not yesindyref2 or thepnr or me. If we do not like what they are doing then we find or create another party to vote for.

      Nearly all democratic decisions are made by politicians with a minority vote. Yesindyref2@12.30pm – sorry I agree with most of your posts but you are wide of the mark on this one. Nearly all UK govs have throughout history been empowered by a minority of those who voted and a smaller minority of the population. Trump did not have a referendum to cancel the Iran treaty. Trump did not get a majority of those who voted in the presidential election.

      Just who is driving it must be a majority referendum? What if a majority is defined as per 1979 or even a higher figure? What if no referendum agreed by Britnats and is boycotted.

      It has to be our elected representatives who decide what is the appropriate course of action and when that should be taken. That is democracy.

    246. Cubby says:


      You have lost the plot with your recent post. You are just scaremongering. What if The British Nationalists ( you may give them the undeserved title of being unionists I do not ) say it has to be 65/ 35 majority for Indyref2 then 75/25 for indyref3. Just keep shrugging your shoulders and go for 100% majority to terminate the Treaty.

      Our elected representatives need to keep all options available and they decide.

    247. Cubby says:

      Are Independence supporters really saying that if Westminster continues to prevent a fair and legal referendum that, for example, the election of all 59 out of 59 MPs on a clear vote for independence mandate then they have no democratic right to terminate the Treaty of Union.

      If you believe this you may as well get the white flag out now.

      Indyref1 was not a fair referendum and that was one that Cameron thought he would win easily. Why do you think any others will be different?

    248. Breeks says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      22 November, 2018 at 12:30 pm
      I’m with Thepnr, it needs a majority of the electorate (who turn out to vote). That’s democracy, warts and all. The minority can’t impose their will on the majority, the majority, rightly, wouldn’t accept it.

      Is it still democracy when that electorate is continually subjected to the media monopoly of “foreign” British Propaganda, has its Constitutional rights and entitlements deliberately misrepresented, and has its directly elected MP’s and MSP’s excluded from consultations and dialogue essential to the National interest?

      Is it still democracy when they skew our Parliament to frustrate outright majorities and keep returning unelected deadbeats and BBC glove puppets like Murdo Fraser to front line politics?

      Is it still a democracy when our nightly news broadcast is a pernicious orchestrated smear campaign designed to undermine our Government and the governmental portfolios Devolved to them?

      It is still Democracy when the media obfuscates SNP electoral success and literally declared that Ruth Davidson had “won” the last election?

      Heads up. Our “democracy” is as fked up as every other facet of Scottish existence which has been poisoned and mutated by the decades of perfidious interference and subversive manipulation by Westminster.

      Our “democracy” has proven itself to be a piss poor defender of Scotland’s Constitutional rights and sovereign integrity, yet democracy demands to be at the forefront of our campaign to be properly recognised as the Sovereign Nation we always have been.

      We HAD a Sovereign majority, in both Holyrood AND Westminster. Our democratic credentials COULD NOT HAVE BEEN STRONGER and it achieved NOTHING but sullen defeat, thoroughly impotent in its capacity counter the cheating, skullduggery and barefaced dishonesty of the British Establishment doing what the British Establishment does best. CHEATING and getting away with it.

      I am heartily sick and tired being told what to do, when to wait, what to think, by anaemic and painfully timid politicians who want mandate after mandate to change the regime but when they get mandate, even get it in triplicate, it STILL isn’t good enough to warrant decisive action.

      All of this is exactly why I am an ardent Constitutional Fundamentalist who is obsessed with Scotland’s inalienable popular Sovereignty – because not only will Westminster be bound to the will of Scotland’s people, but so too will our elected bloody government in Holyrood who really should know better.

      By what AUTHORITY is Nicola Sturgeon going down to Westminster to coordinate effort with Jeremy Corbyn to frustrate the United Kingdom’s Impossible Brexit and pursue the United Kingdom’s Impracticable Brexit instead? At what point do we make our stand for Scotland’s indefatigable NO BREXIT as decreed by a 62% majority of the SOVEREIGN Scottish people? Or was that not democratic enough? Or maybe the wrong kind of democracy.

      I trust the law because I know what it says, and it cannot be disputed. It will be a cold day in Hell before I say the same about a politician.

      The people of Scotland are Sovereign. Not Theresa May in Westminster, and not Nicola Sturgeon in Holyrood, and guess what, there is NOTHING democracy can do to change it.

    249. Cactus says:

      Hey Ghillie, aye ahm up furra hooly for St Andrew’s day/night.

      What n where do we fancy… Glasgow, Edinburgh, both.

      iScotland may have MORE to celebrate by then.

      30th November 20XX, and forever more.

      Did ye enjoy me soup? 😉


    250. Cactus says:

      SO has Mundell tendered his resignation as secretary of state as of yet?

      Ia Equestrian Time no on the wireless radio the night…

      Ye’ve still gotta couple of hours ‘tae go’ Davie.

      In a way it’s good that people can see.

      Now 8 days remaining to go…

    251. Cactus says:

      Yey, tonight’s Equestrian Time is on at 22:45 as is.

      Ah was only an oor oot.

      Fae Staffordshire.

    252. Cactus says:


      Aint it strange how the BritNat politicians always go on about ‘protecting jobs’.

      Ha what a sick joke, SO what about all the jobs lost so far or companies moving to mainland Europe, since and all because England voted to leave.

      Audience have been quite tame… until now.

    253. Cactus says:

      The E.T. audience sound like they’ve fallen asleep again.

      Will there be a show on Thursday the 28/03/19.

      That’ll be a crazy episode!

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby and @Breeks
      Voting systems are one thing, they’re imperfect, whether FPTP, STV or D’Hondt. But a straight choice Referendum is just two choices, Independence of Union. And 50% + 1 wins.

      Yes, 1979 was bent by Cunningham and Wilson, the chair of vote NO. But that was wrong and undemocratic, same as it would be if a minority decided and implemented Independence.

      Democracy is more than 50% of those who bother to vote. And if people abstain, because some sort of abstain campaign gets going, tough, they should have used their democratic vote.

    255. yesindyref2 says:

      There may be a case for UDI, IF a referendum is refused, or struck down in the courts however. A UDI that declares its sole purpose to hold a referendum, and then if a NO vote, cancel the UDI. And if a YES vote, put to one side the UDI and go the negotiation table, as long as the result of that referendum is recognised – and that should all be made very clear. That’s Sovereignty – and self-determination.

      IMHO – it’s always personal opinion on such things 🙂

    256. Breeks says:

      YesIndyRef2, in the context of this discussion, when you introduce the term UDI out of nowhere, it’s kinda like raising a flag that you’re not listening or not keeping up with the program.

      Recognition of Scottish Sovereignty does not create that Sovereignty, merely affirms that it already exists. A UDI is an act of creation where a new Sovereignty is created, and one which invariably disputes the former sovereignty of another. Scotland is a million miles removed from that requirement.

      In Scotland’s case, the whole point of International Recognition would mean two things; yes, an affirmation that the default factory setting for Scotland is Sovereignty, but make no mistake, the real seismic change in the political landscape is the reciprocal recognition that 300+ plus years and layer upon layer of United Kingdom sophistry and perfidy is bogus and without objective Constitutional foundation.

      It isn’t Independence we need to declare or create, it is a binding arbitration in law that we need, overturning a monumental injustice and giving us the opportunity to reverse Scotland’s colonial exploitation by an English Parliament, that is and always has been a rampant English wolf dressed in the sheep’s clothing of a United Kingdom parliament.

      The UK Parliament “claims” sovereignty over Scotland, but cannot even commit its self proclaimed Constitutional validity to formally written record because there is only one truth about Scottish Sovereignty, and Westminster has no legitimate claim over it. The Union of the Kingdoms is doable, plausible, but the reality is the plausible outside is a smokescreen which obfuscates the improper and unfeasible “Union” of two Sovereignties which are irreconcilable absolutes.

      The fatal flaw in the Act of Union is that it presumed too much, and it’s false Claim over Scotland’s Sovereignty will be its undoing. We do not need to renegotiate the Union, nor talk (or vote) our way out of it. The Union is a fraud. It professes to do what cannot be done and in law, it cannot exist.

      Scotland does not need the divine act of creation which a UDI represents. Scotland needs arbitration and justice, and global recognition and thereby the end of our thoroughly unconstitutional subjugation and colonial exploitation.

      Why do you think the British are so determined to rewrite history and write Scottish history, culture and language out of existence? They don’t want us to know or remember that Scotland’s wars of “Independence” was not about establishing ourselves anew, but was actually about an ancient and established Kingdom repelling hostile and covetous invasion. We didn’t suddenly declare UDI after Bannockburn. We said get the fk out of Scotland and stay out.

      A slave doesn’t call the end of his enslavement by declaring his “Independence”, he calls it what it is… Freedom.

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