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Wings Over Scotland

The Rights Of Nations

Posted on March 10, 2019 by

David Davis on the Andrew Marr Show this morning:

MARR: “What would [Theresa May] need to bring back [from Brexit negotiations] to win you over?”

DAVIS: “She needs to bring back a clear ability on the part of the United Kingdom to be able to leave this treaty when it chooses to. There is no other treaty in the world I’m aware of where a sovereign nation undertakes to join up and can only leave when the other side says so.”

We’re pretty sure we can think of an example, David.

Absolutely consistently, whether they actually want independence or not, the Scottish people say that the power to hold a referendum on it should reside with the Scottish Parliament, not the UK one. It has never been established that Westminster has the legal right to refuse permission. The Scottish Parliament has voted to hold another referendum. We keenly await news of David Davis’ public support for one.

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    104 to “The Rights Of Nations”

    1. Bugger Le Panda says:

      And that Mr Davies defines Scottish Exceptionalism in the context of Colonialism

    2. defo says:

      Has anyone ever asked our colonial masters why “now is not the time”, and when will it be suitable for their lordships’?

      Can we please stop using the phrase ‘Union’ btw.
      It was a pre-planned hostile takeover after all.

    3. Republicofscotland says:

      Davis remark only enforces the Tory mantra that they don’t see Scotland as a equal partner in the union, but more of a colony.

      We really need to find a way to call the next independence referendum sooner than later.

    4. Muscleguy says:

      Send him a link to the Treaty of Union and ask him to learn it off by heart since he obviously needs to.

      The problem I suspect is that the likes of him think that the Treaty of Union is simply an historical document of no relevance to the modern world. Post a Yes vote he will be astounded when the French mention the Auld Alliance. The French remember, we remember so it is still a live document. As is the Declaration of Arbroath. No less a document than the American Declaration of Independence quotes the Declaration of Arbroath. It absolutely influenced it.

      The Claim of Right, accepted by acclimation into Westminster statute is the modern form of the Declaration of Arbroath and is clearly influenced by it. It too is still a live document.

      Theres a lot more of 100 of us these days as well Mr Davis. We are legion. Tick Tock.

    5. starlaw says:

      Yes Mr. Davis I agree entirely that no Country should be held in a union against the will of that Country, especially when the Prime Minister of the dominant Country has no mandate in the colonised Country.

    6. Cubby says:

      I think we need to say Hostage Scotland from now on.

      Clearly Westminster believes they own or hold Scotland as a prisoner. Either way we need to break free. The old Britnat sarcastic jab about wanting “freedom” is actually true.

      Westminster is not our government it is our prison governor.

    7. Tommy Allan says:

      You’d think a well educated “Scotsman” like Marr would’ve corrected him? ??

    8. Dennis Bartholomew says:

      what right has another country in the world allows another country to tell them what to do our SNP now should tell this corrupt horrible UK government were to go politely the Scottish people have been kept down for too long it is time we woke up and smelt the coffee and see the light especially those who voted no and those who could not make up their minds, surely what is going on know it is quite obvious what they should do know if not they must be walking about with their eyes and ears closed so come all you good Scottish people for GODs sake waken up if not and we lose GOD help us do we want to back to the Thatcher days, not me I am old enough to remember so for all you younger folks ask your grannies and grandads what it was like then you shall know what to do I hope vote YES

    9. Lanarkist says:

      There is no other Treaty “I’m aware of”!
      DD gets his escape clause in just in time as we are all now aware of his intellectual deficiencies.
      There are many facets and facts that DD remains deliberately unaware of, and, he is doing it deliberately!

    10. Hamish100 says:

      Marr like Andrew Neil and their like were colonised from birth.

    11. Ghillie says:

      Ooooh David’s wee tootises are going to be right toasty 🙂

    12. Robert Peffers says:

      @starlaw says: 10 March, 2019 at 2:03 pm:

      … Yes Mr. Davis I agree entirely that no Country should be held in a union against the will of that Country, especially when the Prime Minister of the dominant Country has no mandate in the colonised Country.”

      Mr. Davis has a tiny wee problem, starlaw. He, and the entire Westminster Establishment, are hoist by their own petard and that petard is that THE UNITED KINGDOM is exactly what it says it is on the tin – a UNITED KINGDOM and it is not now, and it never has been, a country.

      Furthermore, it was constituted by the international, Treaty of Union of 1706/7 and as such, therefore, the Written Constitution of The United Kingdom is the Treaty of Union 1706/7.

      Which international treaty must still be extant. For if it is not still extant there is no such kingdom as the UNITED KINGDOM.

      Furthermore, the United Kingdom, only having two signatory kingdoms, is not a four country union of countries with the country of England in charge and the other signatory kingdom treated as a dominion of the country of England so devolution is illegal. Worse still there has been no legal Parliament of England since 30 April 1707. Westminster is thus, legally, the bipartite United Kingdom Parliament and the country of England has no parliament – but Scotland has, it was reconvened by Winnie Ewing when she opened the Holyrood Parliament.

      So, Mr. Davis, what you and your pretend government going to do about it when the legally sovereign people of Scotland tell you the United Kingdom constituted on 1 May 1707 is disunited?

      Will you be sending in the English United Kingdom Troops?

    13. Bob Mack says:

      Ouch. That should leave a mark, but sadly Tories are already mired in s^it.up to their eyeballs

    14. dakk says:

      Blinkered hipocrites like Davis and millions of other britnat plebs can’t seem to get it that the EU has neither tried to prevent the Brexit referendum nor the the UK exit from the EU.

      The EU is simply saying the UK cannot have certain benefits/conditions outwith the EU/SM that it currently has as a member.

      The truth is it seems they now don’t have the balls to actually leave.

      Grow a pair britnats, or just climb down,shut the fuck up and gie us all peace.

    15. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hamish100 says: 10 March, 2019 at 2:28 pm:

      ” … Marr like Andrew Neil and their like were colonised from birth.”

      Oh! For a moment there, Hamish100, I though you had said they were circumcised from birth. Jings! Now I’ll be getting accused of being anti-Semitic. I’ve never been against semmits in my life.

    16. Capella says:

      Well either he is right or Theresa May and her apologists in the colonial press are right. I wonder which side the UN supports.

    17. Scottish Steve says:

      The lack of any sort of self-awareness or irony among unionists is infuriating.

    18. Robert Peffers says:

      I get the strange feeling Mr. Davis has not yet heard the last of his strange mistaken claims. Get right in there Mr. Blackford.

      Now’s the day and now’s the hour.

    19. McDuff says:

      What becomes more and more apparant is that Westminster does not regard Scotland as a nation but more as a large county of England which of course would never never be allowed to separate.

    20. Ken500 says:

      They can’t count or read a balance. They do not understand business, world affairs, Treaty terms or arrangement. They do not know or have any comprehension of how the EU works or the relationship of members in it. It is beyond ignorant of how these total ignoramouses carry on. They are not fit for anything. Especially public office. Lie, after lie, after lie. Rotten crooks.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      Alas Britnats (Scottish born or otherwise) simply don’t see Scotland as a country and a nation. So they don’t see contradictions in statements like this. It’s like Cameron’s comments about Norway having only 5million people but lots of oil. They keep making similar ‘mistake’ because, to them, they aren’t mistakes.

      They won’t change either until new passports are issued! When they have to chose (assuming they have a choice) between Scottish and United Kingdom of England and Wales, only then will they understand!

      On that topic, many countries don’t allow dual nationality – you are either one of them, or not. I believe iScotland should adopt the same approach.

    22. Petra says:

      What a guy, eh? The guy with the changeable mind. Commonly known in Scotland as a wee fly man.

      ”Dimbleby says, “David Davis it was you who once said if a democracy can’t change its mind it ceases to be a democracy. Are you against a second referendum?”

      Mr Davis said he was against another vote because: “Democracy is the right to change your mind but it is not the right to keep asking the same question until someone else changes their mind.”

    23. Ken500 says:

      The Tory – unionists psycho bastards. They are all ignorant and arrogant beyond belief. Unfit for public office or representation. The Westminster unionists criminals break the Representation of the People’s Act every minute of every day. Making false declaration and false Oaths. Liars, Bercow is as bad.

    24. Ken Clark says:

      Cracking Sunday so far!

      I watched this and nearly choked on my breakfast as I was laughing so hard.

      I tearfully scribbled it on to my Sunday National, as its a keeper, along with Boris Johnson’s assertion that Brexit, “is the expression of a legitimate and natural desire to self-govern of the people, by the people, for the people.”

      Unless you’re… well, do I need to finish that sentence? 😀

    25. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Actually, what’s far, far worse than Davis’ anglocentric blinkerism, is Marr’s sycophantic fellow-travelling.

    26. Golfnut says:

      I suppose the Treaty of Utrecht(1714) isn’t relevant either then. Article X ceeded Gibrater and Menorca to the UK. Oh!but it is still relevant. Bare in mind that those assets Westminster will have to negotiate will include Gibraltar.

    27. Luigi says:

      I hope that SNP politicians and YES campaigners are taking note.

      The Brexiteers may be ignorant of Scotland’s sovereignty, but as British patriots (read British Nationalists) they are speaking from the heart IMO. The idea that the democratic rights of the English are thwarted by the EU is what drove them to victory south of the border in 2016.

      The SNP can publish fancy studies with strong economic arguments to their hearts content (and they should), but without a strong, emotional sense of wrong, many people just won’t buy into the economic argument. It needs to be done, but please don’t neglect the other bit.

      The sense of injustice of Scotland being dragged out of the EY against its democratic will is massive, and cannot be stressed enough. Don’t assume everyone is onboard yet. If it was, we would be at 60% yes already.

      This unfairness issue has to take centre stage INO (back up by the economic reports). I do worry that our soft managerial SNP politicians will favour a sound economic argument to dominate (which the British nationalists will love), when it should be the other way round. The offence to Scotland’s sovereignty is THE issue, IMO.

    28. ben madigan says:

      well there are at least 3 examples of the UK deciding when other countries can exit its domination

      1)Scotland has to ask for permission to hold a valid Indyref. Scotland can ask and Scotland can be refused

      2) As Golfnut mentioned above the Treaty of Utrecht awarded Gibraltar to the UK “in perpetuity”
      In future EU documents Spain wants Gibraltar to be denominated “a colony of the British Crown ”
      Which will give the Spanish govt legal space to manoeuvre

      3) According to the Belfast/Good friday Agreement only the UK Secretary of State can decide when to hold a Border Poll i.e. Referendum on irish Re-Unification
      Northern Ireland can’t ask and so cannot be refused!

      Empire rules – OK for DD

    29. mr thms says:

      The Acts of Union 1800 is a bit of a conundrum…

      “Both acts remain in force, with amendments, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and have been repealed in the Republic of Ireland.”

    30. Andy Anderson says:

      Davies proved he is ‘as thick as a plank’ or to put it another way as ‘thick as pig sxxt’ when he demonstrated his total ineptitude as the Brexit Minister. He is incapable of coherent thought to hold a sensible and HONEST debate or descussion.

    31. Brian Powell says:

      Say what you will about delusional Leavers but they were willing to stand up for their country, England, huge numbers of Remainers in Scotland are shitting themselves at the thought of standing up for Scotland.

    32. CameronB Brodie says:

      I bit of Political Realism is in order, though I in no way endorse it as an ideal approach to International Relations. The best weapons to use against an enemy is their own.

      N.B. Political Realism is as distinct from Critical Realism, as male is to female.

      Introducing Realism in International Relations Theory

      Return to reason: reviving political realism in western foreign policy


    33. galamcennalath says:

      Brian Powell says:

      Leavers … were willing to stand up for their country, England

      Indeed. Which was driven by dark money and a large section of the media which was pushing an English nationalist, anti immigration, anti EU, anti left agenda.

      Scotland, in contrast has had an almost universal British naltionalist, anti Indy, anti Scottish Government, anti SNP, even anti Scotland campaign.

    34. skydiver says:

      “Now is not the time” is another May fudge.

      And it definitely does not mean No.

    35. Referendum1707 says:

      Sorry o/t but re Glackin’s rubbish on previous thread about Scotland “having” to adopt the euro to stay in eu (which I’m certainly no big fan of but the uk is far, far worse) well I know that people by and large, say around 60 odd percent aren’t very bright but surely even some of the stupidest people must have tippled to the fact that the uk isn’t and never has used the euro while in the eu.

      As well as, of course, various other eu countries but you’d think that the uk example would make them stop and think about what exactly are these idiots talking about Scotland having to adopt the euro when the uk never did and was never obliged to when it was in the eu.

      Just how thick would you need to be to believe that Scotland would have to adopt the euro to join the eu?

    36. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. David Davis obviously does not consider Scotland’s democratic deficit to represent a constitutional disgrace, as we are both small and far away from his perspective. That and he’s a rancid Tory.

    37. velofello says:

      Through the 1950s,’60s I’m inclined to the view that UK governments acted on behalf of all four countries reasonably equally. Then along came North Sea oil & gas was discoveries, political greed, and Thatcher took hold, grabbing the ‘once in a lifetime” financial bonanza for England was a higher priority than fair government.

      Well, we Ken Noo, and now with the Atlantic oil and gas resources, and renewable energy, Scotland can right a great political wrong visited upon us by Westminster. Take our independence use said resources for Scotland.

      The misuse of North Sea wealth is there to be viewed – Trident, Crossrail, London’s shiny buildings – so we can also consider pursuing for compensation. I’d dearly love to be one of our negotiators.

    38. Breeks says:

      I preferred Ian Blackford later speaking to Gordon Brewer, the gist of which was Brewer saying to Blackford, (concerning a Section 30), “what part of no don’t you understand?”

      Ian Blackford relied to the effect, “what part of Scottish Sovereignty is it that May doesn’t understand?”

      We can only speculate where we’d be now if we’d adopted that line and stuck to the principle back in 2016, rather than dancing around the mulberry bush with all the “Sovereignty busting” soft Brexit Customs Union and EFTA nonsense for the better part of two years.

      We’d have settled the issue of Scotland staying in Europe, and by now, we’d have had over two years to secure International recognition and Legal Personality for Scotland, rather than simply looking on from the wings in impotence. New EuroScot friends amongst us, like Thomas Widmann, would not be compelled to shut down their business here in Scotland and move their families to Denmark.

      How many Widmann families are we now going to lose because their “brink” has arrived a little sooner than ours?

      More worrying still, (for me, not them), is that if Westminster exits Europe with no deal, that means no withdrawal agreement, no transitional arrangements, no contingency period of adjustment. We will be outside of Europe and beyond the jurisdiction of the ECJ, submitting our Constitutional credential to the UN ICJ with none of our irons left in the EU’s fire. Brexit will arrive a thud, and nothing will ever be the same again.

      19 days…. tick tock…

    39. manandboy says:

      Some time ago a squad of men arrived at my next door neighbours house to dismantle and remove a large garage. The wooden gate to the drive which led to the garage was closed so one of the men tried to open it but was unable to do so. So one of the men went round to the front door of the house but got no reply. After some discussion, the men left. Some hours later the owner returned, pushed open the gate and drove his car into the drive. The moral of the story is that it was only the men’s mistaken belief that the gate could not be opened, prevented them from getting the job done.
      Independence for Scotland is mistakenly believed by many in both Scotland and England, to be a door that only England can open. And that is by English design, for it prevents Scotland from getting the job done.

    40. Macart says:

      Neatly done.

      Back to back zingers. 🙂

    41. Alan Crocket says:

      Let’s stop manufacturing excuses for Scotland’s non-independence by blaming it on London. That place can’t prevent Scotland leaving, but it’s under no obligation whatsoever to facilitate it, notwithstanding the mandate.

      Fixating on a Section 30 referendum allows May to write our script. She says “Now is not the time”, and the First Minister concurs! Instead of directing outrage at that concurrence, we target it at May. But the corollary of outrage at London’s refusal of permission is acceptance of the fraudulent position that there is no other way, i.e. that London does indeed have the power to prevent Scottish independence, which is nonsense.

      It would be very nice to have a re-run of the 2014 arrangement, to reverse that vote, and I hope Sturgeon succeeds in getting one, but it is not a necessity. All we have to do to nullify London’s refusal is enter an election, whether at Westminster or Holyrood, on a clear and direct manifesto of a declaration of independence, and in that election to win power (at Westminster, a majority of Scottish seats) with a majority of the vote. There is no mystery about it, nor any doubt about its propriety or legitimacy, or its international acceptability. Nor would London demur, given its acknowledgment that the union persists by consent. Indeed, the very prospect of such an election, in which London would be a mere bystander, might be enough to elicit agreement to a referendum.

      The issue is entirely in Scotland’s own hands, so less whining and more winning!

      p.s. An epic boost to winning would be an updated Wee Blue Book hand delivered to every letterbox in the country at the opportune time. Please say that’s on the cards!

    42. Hamish100 says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      10 March, 2019 at 2:51 pm
      @Hamish100 says: 10 March, 2019 at 2:28 pm:
      ” … Marr like Andrew Neil and their like were colonised from birth.”
      Oh! For a moment there, Hamish100, I though you had said they were circumcised from birth. Jings! Now I’ll be getting accused of being anti-Semitic. I’ve never been against semmits in my life.

      Can I state categorically I will never under any circumstance check that one out. In this weather pro semmit’s are in!!

    43. CameronB Brodie says:

      I thought it redundant to point out that Davis’s world view articulates a cultural chauvinism that is intensely dense in nature. Then I changed my mind.

      Why Ideas Matter in International Relations: Hans Morgenthau, Classical Realism, and the Moral Construction of Power Politics


      Debates over how ideas matter in international relations have come to occupy a key place in the field. Through a reexamination of the thinking of Hans Morgenthau, this article seeks to recover a tradition of classical realism that stressed the role of ideas in both the construction of action and in political and ethical judgment.

      Locating Morgenthau’s understanding of politics against the background of the oppositional “concept of the political” developed by the controversial jurist Carl Schmitt shows how Morgenthau’s realism attempts to recognize the centrality of power in politics without reducing politics to violence, and to preserve an open and critical sphere of public political debate.

      This understanding of Morgenthau’s realism challenges many portrayals of his place in the evolution of international relations, and of the foundations of realist thought. However, it is also of direct relevance to current analyses of collective identity formation, linking to—and yet providing fundamental challenges for—both realist and constructivist theories.

      For helpful and insightful comments on this article in its wide variety of previous incarnations, I would like to thank Michael Barnett, James Der Derian, Randall Germain, Alexandra Gheciu, Stefano Guzzini, Jef Huysmans, Oliver Jutersönke, Jennifer Mitzen, Vibeke Schou Pedersen, and especially Rita Abrahamsen and Richard Wyn Jones. Previous drafts were presented at the 2002 meetings of the British International Studies Association, and at the Department of Political Science and International Studies, University of Birmingham, United Kingdom. My thanks also to the participants at those sessions.

      Embracing ontological doubt: The role of ‘reality’ in political realism

      Self-determination and power: a human-centric
      approach to the international relations

    44. skydiver says:

      May is telling the Scots that if England us going under, then you are coming under with us.

      How selfish can you get?

      Surely the European Court would uphold the decision/mandate of the Scottish Parliament?

    45. Bugger le Panda says:


      Would make a great Indy2 slogan?

    46. Fireproofjim says:

      Or “Now is he day and now is the hour”

    47. euan0709 says:

      C’mon Guys. I sure that this is all very well. But lets get to the nitty gritty, the important stuff…..Whats happening at the North British Branch of the Liebor Party…………….Anybody ? Seriously Anybody ?

    48. gus1940 says:

      Perusal of the hysterical nonsense which is filling the metropolitan Brexit rags suggests that they feel that their dream of leaving the EU is rapidly shrinking into the distance.

      They seem to be really desperate.

      As for The Earl of Forfar words fail me.Will the people of Forfar be dancing in the streets – I think not.

    49. cearc says:

      ‘Now is the Time’, is indeed an excellent slogan.

      Colin Dunn has already formatted Davis’s quote for anyone with a window to put it in.

    50. geeo says:

      I see the usual suspects are still claiming a S.30 is ‘permission’ to hold an indyref.

      How many times do you need told that a Section 30 order is not and never gas been, permission for anything ?

      Looking at you, Ben Madigan.

      Britnat propoganda shit spreader.

    51. Iain mhor says:

      Back to the mindset of the extingushed nation(s) and the empty Treaty I see. There are two of those minds – one believes bith nations were extinguushed and a brave new nation of the UK of GB forged; the other believes only Scotland was extinguished and England was the continuator.
      There is no real difference which one eejit Dave there is.
      Anyway, that’s ground I covered recently, but I wonder if they should be prodded more often to have them actually say it out loud. Mundell, Tomkins and others did in the past, but perhaps it needs lanced in higher profile and publically more often. Nothing like hearing we don’t exist to endear them to Scotland and start a constitutional rammy.
      Let’s face it, Indy & Brexit are already constitutional rammies, might as well add the real meat to the bones.

    52. twathater says:

      Velofello 4.42pm unfortunately I disagree with you , I don’t think wastemonster govts have EVER been fair to Scotland , my belief is that they in their IMPERIAL wisdom have bequeathed such finances as they deemed appropriate , to keep the natives from eating each other the same as they have done for their other COLONIES , whilst stealing and appropriating our resources and land for their benefit

      Let’s be BRUTALLY honest here the ONLY reason there has been such a huge groundswell of opinion for independence is due to the election of a SNP SG , who actually listened to , educated and awakened the Scottish people ( most of ) to the gross misrepresentation of what this union actually is and the contempt in which wastemonster holds for us

      Let’s imagine we had voted in another liebour govt in Scotland with the tories in govt at wastemonster, NOTHING would have changed as it didn’t for the previous 80 years, our liebour reps would STILL have abstained or voted FOR the tories austerity , liebour would still talk about federalism , abolishing the house of LARDS whilst still putting CREEPS in there , and all the while spouting their socialist values whilst fraudulently pochling their expenses

      Whilst I don’t always agree with some of the SNP’S proposals and I am as frustrated as EVERYONE else re timing of self determination , I am reassured that if not for the enlightenment of large parts of the population brought about by the SNP , YES GROUPS , ACTIVISTS , BLOGGERS and WINGERS we would be nowhere near dissolving the union and we would still be at the mercy of the lying , troughing britnat parties

    53. stu mac says:

      @velofello says:
      10 March, 2019 at 4:42 pm
      Through the 1950s,’60s I’m inclined to the view that UK governments acted on behalf of all four countries reasonably equally.

      In that period, local government (counties/towns) had much more clout and more control over their finances. Also SoS for Scotland had much more clout and wasn’t just a glove puppet. One of the aims of the Thatcherites was the centralisation of power in this country, weakening the authority of local government and bringing their finances under more central control. Ditto with civil servants – creating a new class who instead of advising governments were just blind followers who became part of the revolving door between Downing St and the City. There has been decades long centralisation and removal of checks and balances on government power. That’s why there’s so much corruption – and incompetence too – for if you have nothing to make you think twice, you just charge ahead with any old nonsense.

    54. Robert Peffers says:

      @auld highlander says: 10 March, 2019 at 3:30 pm:

      ” …

      Yes, Auld Highlander, at the very end of that link some idiot says, “Nicola Sturgeon says she will not hold a referendum without Theresa May’s permission”

      But what it doesn’t say is that Nicola may simply just tell Theresa the United Kingdom is now over and Westminster thus has no legal authority to dictate anything to the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      Will Theresa then opt to send in the English United Kingdom Troops against the Kingdom of Scotland?

      Oh! Wait! How can Theresa do anything as Westminster isn’t the parliament of England it is the parliament of the United Kingdom and one partner in that United Kingdom has just decided the union is ended. So there is no longer a United Kingdom Parliament and there hasn’t been a legal Parliament of England since 30 April 1707.

    55. CameronB Brodie says:

      stu mac
      You’re describing a symptom of neo-liberal governmently. The Poll Tax and the ethos that drove the re-organisation of local governemtn finance, was a powerful force in shifting political power AWAY from the people. It dislocated urban centers from their economic hinterlands and so made them more dependent on central government finance, and control. That’s my interpretation anyway.

    56. CameronB Brodie says:


      As I said, I’ve lost my glasses. Just waiting on a response to my lost property form before I buy a new pair. Tight, me?

      Neoliberalism, Governmentality, and Ethics

    57. Robert Peffers says:

      @mr thms says:10 March, 2019 at 3:54 pm:

      ” … The Acts of Union 1800 is a bit of a conundrum…

      Aye!mr thms, You can say that again! Mainly because it wasn’t an act of union in the first place.

      To be an Act of Union it would have had to be a an act about a Treaty between two equally sovereign states freely agreeing to unite. There was no such treaty of union nor was the act about two sovereign states to unite.

      It was just a Act of only the Irish Parliament of all Ireland to abolish itself. Thus allowing only part of Ireland to become part of the United Kingdom.

      In other words calling it an Act of Union is/was a lie.

      How Treaties of Union work is that both parties pass their own act of union to unite with the other party and to wind themselves up.

      These two separate acts thus immediately become defunct because both the parliaments that passes them then end themselves. The resultant parliament is a new parliament formed by both former states in union. 1800 was neither an Act of Union nor a treaty of union.

    58. Luigi says:

      Sigh, another BS scare story to frighten the pensioners (pensions will drop 30% following Scottish currency). The “expert” – a prof associated with BT. Still, the headline is there and the old folks are terrified – job done.

      I don’t know about other folk, but I am sick and tired of being put on the back foot with this nonsense. Rebuttals are curcual, but these take up time and effort and by the time they come, the lie is already half way round the world. The only way to combat this is to anticipate what’s coming and get ahead of the game.

      I would like to know what will happen to pensions if we DON’T get independence. We need a carrot and stick this time – time for us to highlight our scarey stories (which will be closer to the truth than the BT BS). 🙂

    59. Cubby says:

      Still far too much cringe in people who are Independence supporters. Stop being so bloody servile.

      Some people are like Oliver Twist. – please please can I have more Sect 30 please please I am so hungry for an independence referendum but only if you have the time or inclination to grant me some more lovely sect 30.

      Pissoff says Westminster you’ve had your fill of sect 30 – you got a full bowl 5 years ago – now run along we’re busy ripping off your oil.

    60. Dorothy Devine says:

      Bugger le Panda , now’s the time and now’s the hour , see the front of battle lour , see approach Westminster’s power chains and slavery.

      Said someone !

    61. bowanarrow says:

      I swore myself off from coming back onto this site.
      I thought give it time, people will see the need.
      Still, I thought after the statment of May today about
      not, “letting” the scots have a second referendum I
      would find something diffrent here. I might have known.
      Here we all are again preaching to the choir.
      I now live in a constituency which had an snp
      MP now I live in one with a tory. I am sorry to say
      I think it is time. The snp do not have any intention
      of getting scottish independence they have shown
      that they are a party for devolution and are more
      than happy to let scotland stay, so THEY can stay.
      its not their compleate death it is certanly a great
      loss of power. I wish I knew the answer but I dont,
      so, I supose I am the same as everyone else after
      all. PREACHING TO THE CHOIR after all. GOD SAVE
      US ALL when the YANKS come.

    62. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      euan0709 at 5.20

      It’s being reported that only about 300 were present for Corbyn’s speech.
      Daily Record really hammering Labour and its conference.

      Labour is effectively finished in Scotland and only being maintained by the media(like the non existent Lib Dems)

    63. CameronB Brodie says:

      As probably the most effective radical feminist once stated in relation to racist patriarchy, ‘the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house’.

    64. yesindyref2 says:

      The problem with Tories like David Davis is that they don’t have a left foot, they have two right feet – and only one nerve connection. That does make walking difficult.

    65. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      I don’t think any media is maintaining Labour these days. They’re being uniformly hammered by all.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      @Andy Anderson says: 10 March, 2019 at 4:12 pm:

      ” … Different topic but worth a read.”

      No, Andy, it is a different aspect of the same topic and it is still mince for it makes the daft claim that the Scottish claim of the people’s sovereignty is just, “a popular claim to sovereignty”, when that claim is enshrined in the independent Scottish legal system. It has repercussions in everyday law in Scotland. It is the basis of the people’s right to roam.

      Here’s an example for you – there is no English style law of trespass but instead there are legal protections for personal privacy. Unless a notice is displayed at the gate saying, “No hawkers”, or words to that effect any member of the public can enter close to a dwelling but has only one legal right while doing so. That right is to stick to defined paths and go directly to the main entrance in order to contact a legal occupier. If asked to leave they must do so immediately especially if they cannot state by name the person they wish to contact.

      The occupier of a dwelling cannot stop anyone being on their property but can stop them from close proximity to the dwelling.
      In both instances it is because the people are legally sovereign and as such they own Scotland while neither the monarchy or the government do.

      The concept that it is popular sovereignty is mince – it is very much part of Scottish Law and a basic concept at that.

    67. Stoker says:

      Only £440 to reach their £5000 target. C’mon folks, let’s help put our pipes ‘n’ drums onto the streets.

    68. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 10 March, 2019 at 4:42 pm:

      ” … I preferred Ian Blackford later speaking to Gordon Brewer, the gist of which was Brewer saying to Blackford, (concerning a Section 30), “what part of no don’t you understand?”
      Ian Blackford relied to the effect, “what part of Scottish Sovereignty is it that May doesn’t understand?””

      Oh! Wait up, it’s Breeks commenting – I’ll just scroll on buy as it’s sure to be an anti-DM/SG/SNP rant.

    69. Meg merrilees says:


      Ian Blackford is setting an amendment about Scottish independence this week in WM, citing the fact that WM has agreed in the House of Commons that the Scottish people are Sovereign by not opposing the Claim of Right when it was debated in summer. This is essential when we have to fight them in the Courts.

      Scotland will be independent – don’t doubt that – and soon.

    70. Dr Jim says:

      This Empire Kingdom of England place needs its legs cut off and if it’s every elected government’s first job to defend the realm then our lot (the SNP) has to do just that no matter what it takes, we voted them into office to do that as part of their job so now to coin an English phrase Scotland expects, and if it’s handers our government needs well we can put 100.000 plus on the streets at a moments notice or more as a demonstration of our sincerity and earnestness in the matter

      I’m happy to line up anywhere I’m telt wae a big flag that says *get tae* just say the word and I’m there

      It’s time to end this

    71. ben madigan says:

      @ geeo says:”Looking at you, Ben Madigan”.
      Sorry that what I wrote has riled you so much.

      First I want to make clear I am no “Britnat propoganda shit spreader” as you accuse me of being.

      Look at any posts on my blog, including the latest, which advocates Irish Re-Unification.

      Remember: Many of my posts advocate Scottish Independence. Personally speaking, as Irish with a paternal Scottish background, I am convinced that Independence is best for Scotland. Geeo may believe that or not – It makes no difference to me

      Geeo said “I see the usual suspects are still claiming a S.30 is ‘permission’ to hold an indyref.”

      I wrote about a “valid” IndyRef which was sorta shorthand for “recognised by Westminster” – such as Mr Salmon achieved and as Ms Sturgeon says she wants.
      That’s hardly BritNat propaganda.

      Geeo said “How many times do you need told that a Section 30 order is not and never gas been, permission for anything ?”

      A request for a Section 30 is a request that Westminster recognizes the outcome of the referendum

      If Westminster says NO, then the Scottish govt will presumably have a plan B so that Indyref2 is held and its positive outcome is recognized by other countries.

      Westminster will delight in a negative outcome and will be quick to recognize it, section 30 or no section 30

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      Interesting and sensible next step. Got a link for that?

    73. Flower of Scotland says:

      Robert Peffers @2.37pm

      Robert your comments are so good I copy them and put them in my notes. Great one!

    74. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alan Crocket says: 10 March, 2019 at 4:57 pm:

      ” … Let’s stop manufacturing excuses for Scotland’s non-independence by blaming it on London. That place can’t prevent Scotland leaving, but it’s under no obligation whatsoever to facilitate it, notwithstanding the mandate.”

      And here we have yet another one, no doubt a trained lawyer, professional politician who has devoted their life since teenage to the cause of Scottish independence who is a greater authority on the matters of constitutional law than our FM and all her legal advisors both Scottish government law officers and Scottish law lords not to mention the very high proportion of legally trained elected members of the Holyrood and Westminster SNP elected members.

      This one, like so many other Wings commenters who spend much more time denigrating the FM/SG/SNP and their Westminster contingent. The thing that seems to pass them by is that, to quote a very old saying – There is more than one way to skin a cat – and I’d bet my shirt the FM knows every one of them.

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      With reference to that 2012 Herald article about Holyrood being able to hold a referendum regardless, it’s worth reprinting this link again, as that’s the basis of the article, and it possible relevance to the present and immediate future:

    76. I’m sure Ian Blackford will enjoy telling Parliament the answer to what D Davis said on the TV today.

      Plus maybe HM the Queen needs to give T May a lesson on her next visit… Oh, By the way, PM, you do realise that I have two crowns that of Scotland and this English one etc…

      Oh and if we crash out without a deal then that surely renders the Treaty of Union kaput then it’s maybe a case of who dares wins.

    77. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers.

      I think you’re being a tad hard on Andy Anderson, re “popular sovereignty”.

      “Popular” comes from the Latin “Populus” – the people. The first relevant definition that Apple’s dictionary threw up was,

      “(of political activity) carried on by the people as a whole rather than restricted to politicians or political parties”

      Therefore, that definition would suggest that “popular sovereignty” describes what we have in Scotland, ie Scots (the people) are sovereign.

    78. Colin Alexander says:

      Scotland is not regarded as a sovereign nation. It is regarded as a colony of the English Crown. The English Crown: The ultimate mafia operation.

      The English Crown operates under a shell company called: The UK.

      Scotland and her people are important assets to this dodgy organisation.

      And like any dodgy organisation, dodgy accounting comes in to play, so assets are then listed as liabilities aka GERS.

      Time to free ourselves from these crooks.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      I think it goes deeper than that, and that the SG have been preparing since the day the EU Ref was announced, or even when it was in the Tory 2015 manifesto. Remember Miller and Wolffe? Some people moaning about Sewell, which, being 1998, has no bearing on age-old Laws and Claims, except that they could nullify it. Wolffe conceded Sewell effectively, and the overall ruling in any case was on the EU Ref Act, and the 1973 Communites which I daresay Wolffe knew or expected would happen. So what was the purpose of the SG Intervention and Wolffe’s submission? Exactly that, to have the Intervention accepted, to have the Submission accepted as relevant, and to have the submission in court itself, with some mention in the judgement. Job done. Oh, and Keen was angry throughout, whereas Wolffe was smiling. I wonder why?


    80. Welsh Sion says:

      Tommy Allan says:

      10 March, 2019 at 2:06 pm

      You’d think a well educated “Scotsman” like Marr would’ve corrected him? ??

      Errrrmmm … Marr’s paymasters are the EBC. Need we say more? (But, of course. You already knew that. 🙂 )

    81. Yesindyref2

      I agree, I think they have been cannily lining up the posts, creating a case built on many foundations, not just ”because we want a referendum”.

      Of course, Wolfe won the Scottish Continuity Bill case as being within the remit of the SG at the time it was drafted, (one assumes because of the historical sovereignty of the SG never having been removed only prorogued – thank you Mr. Peffer).

      I think Ian Blackford’s idea this week to refer to the Claim of Right being accepted ‘unopposed’ in 2018 will unnerve them in the H o C. Amazed when they got that through but the deed is done and WM will struggle to refute that one.
      Then you have the gift of the dumb statement from Davis this morning, the UN charter, our own Treaty, the backstop, the refusal to allow the Scottish Gov Continuity bill which was legal until such time as WM changed the game from ‘Rugby to football’ half way through.
      The power grab and many others – BUT I agree, right back at the very first legal case when the the Good Friday Agreement was being studied through the Courts did not the judiciary say that at some point in the future, the Scottish government may want to bring it’s own case and strongly hinted that the 1707 Act and Treaty would be cited then.

      As I have said before, I truly believe that our forbears, knowing ‘perfidious Albion’ very well, crafted the words of the Treaty very carefully for such an event as this when WM would show its true colours as believing it ‘owns’ Scotland.

    82. To counter the 30% pension cut, maybe we need to put out a story, and make the policy, that WASPI women will receive their lost money if Scotland becomes independent.

      Would it cost that much given the numbers involved in Scotland??

    83. Petra says:

      STV news reported earlier tonight, by using footage of Iain Blackford, that the SNP MPs will be putting down an amendment this week asking for the Government to recognise that Scotland voted to remain. That’ll put the cat amongst the pigeons, even although we know that it’ll get kicked out.

      Iain Blackford stated, ”We’re also putting down as part of that amendment a recognition that if the UK does leave the European Union that the people of Scotland should be able to determine their own destiny and in particular should have that power to have an independence referendum if we so choose and we’re making reference in that to the claim of right and the debate we had in Parliament in July 2018 that Parliament accepted the motion that sovereignty rests with the Scottish people.”


      @ Breeks says at 4:42 pm …. ”We can only speculate where we’d be now if we’d adopted that (Sovereignty) line and stuck to the principle back in 2016, rather than dancing around the mulberry bush with all the “Sovereignty busting” soft Brexit Customs Union and EFTA nonsense for the better part of two years.”…

      You could also speculate that if Nicola Sturgeon hadn’t been seen to put up a fight against the constantly changing Brexit fiasco, support for Independence would / could have plummeted. If she had called for a referendum in 2016 (or 17/18) I reckon that we would have surely lost it.

      Don’t forget that, as pointed out already, we have no idea of the numbers of Scottish ”Unionist” supporters within the 62% who voted to remain in the EU or leave for that matter. We’re all very aware of the fact, on here, that the Scots are Sovereign however that includes those who support the Union, support Independence, want to leave the EU and remain in the EU. Nicola Sturgeon has to consider ALL Sovereign Scots not just those who want Independence like herself (or us).

      Robert Peffers, and others, have made it clear that we need to see a MAJORITY of Sovereign Scots support Independence for it to be recognised Internationally and that makes sense. Just as it was recognised by International bodies in 2014 that a MAJORITY of Sovereign Scots voted to remain in the Union. That’s the crux of the matter … ”majority” … and the issue that Nicola Sturgeon has been working her backside off to resolve.

      I would imagine that many Scots, Unionists and Independentistas, (and millions of people across the UK and Europe), REALLY appreciate what Scotland’s First Minister has been trying to do to keep us in the EU and don’t see the last couple of years of her life as being spent, ”dancing around the mulberry bush with all the “Sovereignty busting” soft Brexit Customs Union and EFTA nonsense.’’ I actually thought that you might be one of those who felt some degree of respect, and gratitude, towards her for what she’s been doing taking into account the strong feelings that you seem to have about being removed from the EU. Seems not.

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      Dare I say this – WM made a big mistake with the “Now is not the time”, because I’m sure Sturgeon was delighted with that! On the other hand they could have said “of course, same terms as last time, Indy Ref 2 must be held before 31st Dec 2018”. Oops. That would have made life very difficult. Too late now. I think they were psyched out of their best move.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      Of course, if any of their observers are looking in, I might just be messing with their heads 😎

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      Meg merrilees
      There has always been an element of Westminster that viewed yoonyawn as a takeover and England assuming it’s ‘natural’ role as pater familias. From the perspective of political science, most of these individuals could be described as Tories. From this Scottish humanist’s perspective, they’re simply old-skool cultural chauvinists. Or racists for short.

    87. Karen Dallas says:

      Aye, remarkable lack of self awareness they have. It’s like as a nation, Scotland doesn’t exist in any other terms than what the UK can glean for its coffers. Resources and the means to underwrite any bloody (“humanitarian cause”) war.

    88. JLT says:

      You honestly couldn’t make this nonsense up.

      I’ve no doubt the SNP MPs and MSPs will have a field day with that one when facing the Tories both at Westminster and Holyrood.

      I just wish the other half of Scotland could see the irony too.

    89. Phronesis says:

      Is Scotland a country or a protectorate, a colony, a suburb of Lincoln?
      Yes, it is a country with a localised democracy that is amazingly capable of governing itself without the patronage of an imperious neighbour.

      ‘Arguably, Scotland is one of the most clearly defined countries in Europe, in terms of borders (sea on three sides), history (as a formerly independent state), culture, language and literature, topography, economy etc. etc. The borders of most European states, for example France, Germany, Poland, Austria, have been subject to far greater historical shifts (enlargements, contractions etc.) than Scotland’

    90. North chiel says:

      “Petra@0837 pm” , our FM has clearly demonstrated that she has genuinely and earnestly along with Mike Russell argued the case on behalf of Scotland ( and the U.K.) to remain in the EU . She currently at this late hour argues for a second EU referendum. The People of Scotland will recognise that our government has done all it can on this issue and hopefully she will receive due credit for the effort. It has been clear however for some considerable time now that the current Westminster Tory government have nothing but contempt for our government in Edinburgh and take little or no notice of the views of our people on Brexit or for that matter anything else. The “ devolved powers” are to be grabbed back , the “ Sewell convention” has been shown to be a con, on a daily basis EU citizens are leaving Scotland and on a daily basis people from overseas living in our country ( some for decades) are being served notice from the London Home office to leave their homes here. ( What an absolute scandal an utter disgrace that Scotland’s people and government don’t even have the legal right to determine who can come to live and remain in our communities and homeland. Dispicable!).
      Yes Petra , our FM has demonstrated admirable patience and internationally recognisable stateswomanship in the face of a breathtakingly arrogant ignorant ( in every sense of the word) and shambolic Westminster “ government” which I am quite sure the EU and leaders of EU countrys will now be so very well aware of. My earnest Hope is that the people of Scotland will now finally recognise that our real friends are the other European “ family of nations” who sit around a table on a regular basis , sharing working breakfasts, lunches & dinners, agreeing decisions for the benefit of their people’s and countries , and Nicola Sturgeon so very much deserves to be there with them . She would surely enhance that top table as our people’s elected sovereign First and Prime Minister. Perhaps I can ask our readers if they can ever recall a working breakfast lunch or dinner round table summit of the leaders of the “ so called United Kingdom” country’s leaders ( Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland and dare I say it England ( de facto Westminster PM).
      Yes it’s an old saying in the Highlands “ you eat with your friends” . Never so true than when comparing the UK to the EU ( Leo Varadkar can testify to that folks).

    91. Welsh Sion says:

      mr thms says:

      10 March, 2019 at 3:54 pm

      The Acts of Union 1800 is a bit of a conundrum…

      “Both acts remain in force, with amendments, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and have been repealed in the Republic of Ireland.”


      Ah, but did you know, mr thms, that the erroneous called “Acts of Union 1535 and 1542” (aka the Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542) between England and my country have been repealed by Westminster under Schedule 2, Welsh Language Act 1993?

    92. Phronesis

      In English eyes Scotland is the Milchcow or the Golden Goose.

      One thing for sure the only people being listened to are the DUP and the ERG.

      Ireland, N.Ireland, Wales and Scotland are being totally ignored and the Tories do so at their peril. The majority in N. Ireland want the backstop and T May’s deal because it keeps them in the C Union. There is an increasing majority for a United Ireland. Wales is getting annoyed and Scotland is about to abandon ship. T May is about to go on record as the most disastrous PM this UK has ever had. Expect anything to happen this week as the tories are desperate – wouldn’t put it past T May to pull the Wednesday ‘No Deal’ and Thursday ‘People’s Ref’ votes.

      Fascinating that J Hunt says T May’s deal being lost would be devastating for the Tory party – wrong call Mr. Hunt – your first worry should be the country NOT the party and neither ‘no Deal’ nor T May’s deal are good for the UK. Either will precipitate the break up of the UK so we are rapidly getting to the point of no return and some certainty for Nicola.

      Get the popcorn in and make sure your seat belts are functioning – it’s going to be a bumpy week.

      I notice Derek Mc Kay ha asked the chancellor to keep the faith and pay out the Barnett equivalent for the DUP bung that none of the other devolved nations has received yet and he is also asking that extra funding to cover Brexit costs are extended to Scotland as the current situation is grossly wrong.

    93. Yesindyref 2 @7.43

      Just seen your link. apologies.
      My reference to a possible Court Action is just a hunch that it may be a way to skirt round the Section 30 refusal.
      (ECJ/UN/Court of Sessions. Wolfe is up to it and may be the ultimate key- also interesting that the S. Gov and Wolfe in particular when asked under FOI request from opposition MSP’s refused to issue legal advice they have issued/received on Independence.)

      I think the major coup is getting the Claim of Right through WM last year – genius. But of course, this unscrupulous Tory Party will try to ignore that – unfortunately Elizabeth Windsor may have to be consulted , oh michty me!, as she is living proof of the existence of Scotland as a separate Kingdom, as is Scots Law, Scots education etc .

      Plus the recent Article 50 challenge has acknowledged that Scotland is a separate judicial system recognised at ECJ level, and that we do not want to leave the EU.

      Did not Joanna Cherry imply something about going to Court – don’t want to set a hare running here but I thought she implied we could walk away? Can anyone remember?


    94. defo says:

      North chiel
      I’m pro eu, but was it a breakfast,lunch or dinner meeting where they decided to let Spanish fascism of off the hook, over their unconscionable oppression of the Catalan people ?

      Would our representative have stood up to object, if we had prevailed in 2014? I’d love to think so.

    95. North chiel says:

      “ Defo @ 0100 am “ I am quite sure that Alex Salmond given the opportunity ( unfortunately not by the people of Scotland) on 18-9-14)would have protested vehemently . Not so sure if there was international condemnation of “ British tanks” on the streets of Glasgow on 31st jan 1919 , but suffice to say that we have had in past “ battles” ,support from European allies when faced with “English aggression” when previously Scotland was an “ Independent Nation”

    96. North chiel says:

      Ps Defo , I don’t suppose our “ British” representative said too much about the thuggish behaviour of the Madrid government?

    97. defo says:

      North Chiel
      Agreed, (i think) Eck would have caused a stooshie.

      Better in the Worlds largest trading block, with an equal voice,
      than out, at the mercy of the neo-liberal warmongers.

    98. robert alexander harrison says:

      That qoute by Davis is perfect for a billboard to show how much a lier they really are because Scotland only leaving the uk on Englands say so is exactly what they are pulling here.

    99. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi robert alexander harrison.

      Courtesy of indyposterboy:-

    100. robert alexander harrison says:

      Brain doonthetoon that’s it the perfect billboard to plaster out there in our city’s and towns all over scotland because that’s how we can beat the media being controlled by the conservatives in England with there anti Scottish insults lies and propaganda using there own words against them.

    101. don Marr says:

      you have a lot of imagination if you think that the EU is left wing.
      It remains what it always was .

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