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Wings Over Scotland

The letter

Posted on September 10, 2019 by

We saw this earlier, and thought “Oh God, what now?”

So we had a look.

Because like most people we’d just shrugged in bewilderment and written the episode off as a minor and possibly accidental diversion in the grand circus tragedy of 2019 UK politics, without any great examination.

And we may have figured it out.

The French government have already said that their patience with endless pointless extensions is (understandably) exhausted, and they’ll only grant another one if it’s for a tangible meaningful reason, like a new referendum or a general election or to agree revocation, NOT just to repeat the static farce of the last three-and-a-half years.

So here’s the letter Boris Johnson could send to the EU next month, in full compliance with the law just forced through by the opposition:

“Dear Europe,

Hi! It’s us again, the UK! Look, we have absolutely no chance of getting the Withdrawal Agreement Bill through Parliament. You know that, we know that. It’s been defeated about a hundred times.

But it’s all we’ve got. I’ve tried twice in good faith to call a general election, but Parliament has refused and I’m not going to ask again. There’s basically no chance the opposition can do it without my backing, because they need 434 votes under the FTPA and even my maddest rebels are almost certainly going to draw the line at doing it via a vote of no confidence and risk putting Jeremy Corbyn in power for five years. They’re still Tories, by crikey!

Clearly I’m also not going to call another referendum. So the only thing on offer now is several more months or even years of deadlock and uncertainty, and then we’ll be right back where we are now.

On that specific basis, please can we have another extension? Because at this stage Her Majesty’s Government of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is just deliberately trolling you, you cheese-eating surrender monkeys.




Only a month or so of no Parliament to wait and find out.

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  1. 10 09 19 12:56

    The letter | speymouth

277 to “The letter”

  1. bobajock says:

    Odd – but in my head I can see him flapping and running his hand over his hair in front of a room full of beloved EU leaders – like a scene from Dr Strangelove.

    Dear God – get me out of the UK.

  2. Alex Birnie says:

    As has become normal in recent weeks and months, another opinion piece which twists the facts into a pretzel to make them fit Stu’s views. Exactly what he has been putting the spotlight on when it is done by unionist politicians. Stu’s strength, and his value to the yes movement, is his ability to dissect articles and opinion pieces (just like this) and lay them open for ridicule. His opinions (on quite a few subjects)?? Not so much! More of a hindrance than a help to the independence campaign. (IMO)

  3. Alan says:

    The Benn Bill also said something about ANY extension counter-offer from the EU needing to be brought back to Parliament within two days.

    Unless the Kinnock amendment explictly removed that bit, then we’re still good.

  4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “As has become normal in recent weeks and months, another opinion piece which twists the facts into a pretzel to make them fit Stu’s views.”

    Sigh. And I suppose I’ve roped Alan White in for help, yeah? Any chance you could actually say what’s wrong with the theory rather than just engage in a tedious ad-hominem whinge?

  5. Gary says:

    What an absoulute Farce!! And to think it was Independence that was portrayed to be the unsafe bet in 2014!!

    The shambolic circus that passess for politics in westminster is now largely being seen , thankfully at last here, as the risky option.

    As I heard on the radio today… The world views the UK as a third world failed state!!

    Strong and stable?? Ma erse!

  6. Alt Clut says:

    Kinnock/Nandy might be in with a slim chance in the current looking glass state of Westminster.

    Johnson is mercurial and has been clearly rattled several times already – notably on the public platform with Varadkar. What if he ditched the DUP, went for a ‘Northern Ireland’ only backstop and offered it to Parliament as a compromise in return for October 31st Brexit plus taking back any of the 21 expelled who would go for it ?

    Split Labour, remove need for immediate Gen. Elec., confuse Farage supporters, ignore SNP, Libs, Plaid etc.

    ERG and Cummings would go mental but maybe the Greive revelations would enable him to put Cummings head on a spike to please soft Tories?

    A series of long shots but – just maybe ?

  7. Martin says:

    This whole sorry episode is just embarrassing. Parliament continually shooting themselves in the foot then demanding something be put into law over which they have no power. They want to force an extension, which is up to the EU27, not us. But they also want BoJo out…unless it means a general election.

    Sickening. Tinpot country.

  8. Gary says:

    Alex Birnie…. What you on??

  9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Benn Bill also said something about ANY extension counter-offer from the EU needing to be brought back to Parliament within two days.

    Unless the Kinnock amendment explictly removed that bit, then we’re still good.”

    Why would they make a counter-offer? What would be the point?

    Let’s say they say “No, we’ll only give you an extension for a new election” (which is stupendously unlikely as it’d be the EU directly interfering in another country’s domestic politics).

    Johnson, having complied with the law, refuses to accept such terms and stands down. All Parliament can then do is try to force a general election through a VoNC, which may not succeed and which in any event takes a minimum of a month, during which we leave the EU with no deal.

    “Ah,” you say, “but the opposition will agree to nominate Corbyn as temporary PM, knowing he’ll have to call an election afterwards because he doesn’t have a workable majority!”

    But then the EU has to work with a PM it knows is a lame duck whose administration will be measured in weeks, after which everything will be thrown back up in the air by an election which will almost certainly see an enraged electorate return a super-militant hard-Brexit government, particularly as the Lib Dems have just said they’ll stand on a flat-out revoke platform, destroying any chance of a Remain alliance.


  10. Capella says:

    I think I have brain fog. What is Lisa Nandy talking about? The Withdrawal Agreement Bill was voted down at least 3 times and the Speaker refused to put it to another vote. How can she say it emerged from cross party talks but wasn’t put to a vote?
    Have I fallen through a time warp?

    Agree that Boris Johnston can just engineer a refusal of the EU to agree another extension if only by persuading Victor Orban to veto it for him. But it would amuse the E#U more to agree an extension – indefinitely.

    Wondering now what the BBC will find to talk about. their endless festival of Tory talking heads must surely dry up soon.

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Knock yourself out. Section 3 is still intact.”

    Section 3 just says “if the EU offers an extension the PM must accept it”. What’s your point?

  12. Inverclyder says:

    To show them he means business the only thing Johnson can do is turn up at the EU meeting in October in a union jack suit.

    Ian Murray’s will probably fit him.

    Might also be an idea if he turns up pissed and leaves the zip open too for added effect.

  13. Absolute nonsense Alex. A potential consequence of Stephen Kinnock’s amendment explained. However, if you wish to dissect this piece in tru Stu style, explaining where it is oh so wrong, please do so.

  14. desimond says:

    The nation awoke today thinking “So whats happening now then?”…only to be told “Oh Parliaments shut..move along!”

    WTF..honestly, a total dereliction of duty and no mistake.

    I have no idea if Bomb and Dom still have a strategy left, could a right wing cgovernment pull a left field plan out the bag>?, or if its now impossible for any other numbers game to succeed.

    its LimboLand and we all stagger around in the dark wondering whereto..paradise or hell..most folk fearing the worst.

  15. Linda McFarlane says:

    Stu, Thanks for explaining why those tellers did not show up. Couldn’t work it out myself.

  16. Bob Mack says:

    I’m trying to think why the EU would agree to any extension.

    My concern would be the financial hit, and also having a competitor on your doorstep who may offer advantages for financial services as a competitor.

    However,my biggest worry would be contagion. I would have to think that I do everything to defeat this opposition. I have to make them fail if they do not return to the fold.
    That’s what businesses do .

    An extension may well be refused this time,or the demand may be for one which is much much longer than January.

    We are near the end game one way or anotherr

  17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Stu, Thanks for explaining why those tellers did not show up. Couldn’t work it out myself.”

    It’s just a guess. But it makes sense.

  18. Alan says:

    I think you’re showing a pretty shocking lack of comprehension of the EU. Which member state(s) are going to force no-deal by blocking an acceptable extension counter-offer, knowing that Ireland will be pissed off? That the other states most damaged by Brexit will also be pissed off with them?

    Varadkar’s Athena to Johnson’s Hercules was a coded message. Ireland is going to be the strongest advocate for an extension designed to do the most damage to Johnson. The French are now talking about a much longer extension, which enables the EU council to shelve Brexit until we’ve sorted ourselves out properly, however long it takes.

    What’s their hurry? As long as we’re stuck in this madness, the rest of the EU’s eurosceptics are completely undermined.

  19. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think you’re showing a pretty shocking lack of comprehension of the EU. Which member state(s) are going to force no-deal by blocking an acceptable extension counter-offer, knowing that Ireland will be pissed off?”


    The EU doesn’t want no-deal. Ireland certainly doesn’t. But they also don’t want this shit dragging on for another hundred years then ending in no-deal anyway. The EU has plenty of ways of helping Ireland. They’ve shown enormous patience until now. Thinking it’ll last forever is extremely foolhardy.

  20. Capella says:

    @ Alan – thx. so I see she is talking about the –
    European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill which says “This Act may be cited as the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019.” which I thought they did vote on.

    What this whole clown show demonstrates is that the antiquated procedures of the HoC and lack of a written constitution collapse when taken over by a chap who is neither decent nor smart and is advised by a very clever power hungry Gollum.

  21. galamcennalath says:

    So, despite the media claiming the amendment passing without a division by mistake, it is more likely that the government intentionally declined to put up tellers in order to derail the whole bill?

    Does that mean Johnson/Cumming’s government have played a blinder and ‘no-deal’ is unavoidable given any alternative ‘deal’, or passing the final version of th WA Bill, seem highly improbably?

    An approach to the EU asking for an extension to pass the WA Bill is indeed just mischief making!

    I can only assume Benn’s think was that the final version of the WA Bill contained Labour tweets but was never ‘tested’ by May.

  22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “So, despite the media claiming the amendment passing without a division by mistake, it is more likely that the government intentionally declined to put up tellers in order to derail the whole bill?

    Does that mean Johnson/Cumming’s government have played a blinder and ‘no-deal’ is unavoidable given any alternative ‘deal’, or passing the final version of th WA Bill, seem highly improbably?”

    That definitely looks like at the very least a possibility.

  23. Ian says:

    They may as well write that letter.

    Just to be pedantic though, is it not 434 votes required under FTPA?

  24. Mac says:

    I wouldn’t worry about to too much… The dark money will already be instructing one or two of the smaller EU members to veto 🙂

  25. Alan says:

    I’m not ruling out the occurrance of a no-deal exit, by the way. And I never said the Opposition would elect Corbyn.

    I just don’t see the EU NOT making a counter-offer, if only to put down a clear marker that it was Johnson’s illegal and needless decision to force no deal. Nothing to do with them.

    Isn’t it clear to YOU? Everyone has successfully shifted blame completely upon Johnson for no-deal and left him with no option but to embrace it, even knowing that an election finally forced upon him in November could make what happened to the Tory party in 1997 look like a love tap.

    The Brexit Party’s dead meat in this outcome too.

  26. Rob Outram says:

    Interesting suggestion and the state of Westminster politics makes it as viable as any other suggestion.

    What knocked me for 6 yesterday was the explanation that in a no deal scenario, the Irush border will have to go up and Eire (and therefore the EU) are already working on a solution that doesn’t involve a hard border………error, isn’t that what the EU are saying is not possible?

  27. Alistair says:

    It’s a new parliamentary session, so the WA agreement can be voted on again.

    Several MPs have said they’d now vote for it, as the no deal option is so likely under BoJo (ie, it’s not the EU that’s blinked in the face of No Deal, but our parliament).

    He would probably change back to the NI only backstop as he doesn’t have need of the DUP and it means he can promise global trade deals (unicorns, but-hey ho it’ll mollify hard Brexiters who care little about NI). We know this is acceptable to the EU.

    I think the final line should be – legally binding commitment by EU and UK to allow NI residents a referendum every 3-5 years to decide whether they want to remain aligned to EU customs arrangements or UK customs arrangements, with a border placed appropriately. No-one can deny that they should have the final say, and it should be respected.

    Scotland would quite rightly kick up a stink about this, but we voted no, and this is the consequence.

  28. Den Cairns says:

    ‘cheese-eating surrender monkeys’ LOL LOL!!! Another Gem!!

  29. Ken500 says:

    There will be no (no deal) Brexit from the EU as suggested in any way shape or form. Any politician who sanctioned it will be gone. Johnston will not last until October. The UK will never leave the EU as suggested. Statistically impossible. It does not have the majority. Self destructive behaviour.

    The US did not suffer the consequence of the 11WW as Europe did. The US avoided some of the appalling consequences. Europe has experienced greater sufferings abs death. Especially Russia. Russia sacrifice saved the West. Still within living memory. The Tory unionists are total arrogant, ignorant imbeciles. They are incapable of learning the lessons of history. Especially Farage. Beyond belief.

    Johnston is a total ignorant, arrogant imbecile liar. Heading for a fall. Along with the rest of them.

  30. Effijy says:

    Can I check, is this a new Monty Python sketch or is really
    So farcically bad in Westminster’s Parliament?

    When I go off on holiday I’ll be telling foreigners that I’m Irish.

    I could never explain what has been happening in England’s Westminster
    Comedy show these last 3 years and why Scotland chose to have idiotic
    Corrupt clowns rule over us.

  31. Ken500 says:

    The tellers did not turn up because they were away playing bingo or pissed again. Or away defrauding the banks. Or can’t tell the time. Who knows or cares anymore? The total and utter shambles.

    The only thing Sky News gets right is the time. Time the Tories were gone.

  32. Giving Goose says:

    Is this not a gambit to convince the EU that there is no alternative but to come back to the negotiating table with a new offer, thus avoiding a No Deal?

    The UK team present the EU with the facts surrounding the Kinnock amendment and portray it is the only option available but it won’t fly ergo the EU have to present a new offer to avoid No Deal?

    Ot has my brain imploded and I need to go into a darkened room for a few days to recover?

  33. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The tellers did not turn up because they were away playing bingo or pissed again. Or away defrauding the banks. Or can’t tell the time. Who knows or cares anymore? The total and utter shambles.

    The only thing Sky News gets right is the time. Time the Tories were gone.”

    What do Sky News have to do with anything?

  34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Is this not a gambit to convince the EU that there is no alternative but to come back to the negotiating table with a new offer, thus avoiding a No Deal?”

    Good grief.

  35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Just to be pedantic though, is it not 434 votes required under FTPA?”

    Ah yes. It’s only if you round two-thirds to 67% that it comes out at 435.5. The correct number is 434. AS IT CLEARLY SAYS IN THE ARTICLE.

  36. robin key says:

    as I understand it a country in the process of leaving plays no part in decision making so we cease to be an arseache to them whilst still under article 50.
    They will never ever ever kick us out as they do not want to be seen historically as having kicked us out, so will always offer extensions
    so the solution of hard soft or no Brexit is always going to come down to us

  37. Doug says:

    The main thing is that Britnat Westminster was once again shown up last night as a world-wide laughing stock. England is imploding. Xenophobic English nationalism is on the rise.

    A “united kingdom”? I don’t care how Scotland regains its independence; if it’s because English nationalism destroys the union between Scotland and England then so be it.

  38. ElGordo says:

    Can contributors please stop using the term Eire for Ireland, and simply use Ireland (or Republic Of Ireland or ROI if you really must)

    The North of Ireland preferably or Northern Ireland for the occupied counties.

    Initially after 1937 the United Kingdom insisted on using only the name “Eire” and refused to accept the name “Ireland”.

    At the 1948 Summer Olympics in London the organisers insisted that the Irish team march under the banner “Eire” notwithstanding that every other team was marching according to what their name was in English.

    The UK Government generally avoid all reference to “Ireland” in connection with the state.

    It was not until after the 1998 Good Friday Agreement that the UK government accepted the preferred name of simply “Ireland”, at the same time as Ireland dropped its territorial claim over Northern Ireland.

  39. K1 says:

    I don’t think it’s at all difficult to comprehend what is taking place, I do wonder about the police forces across the UK including Police Scotland issuing ‘grab’ a torch et al for the month of September being part of the as yet hidden picture unfolding.

    As others have pointed out, if the Westminster can be so easily shut down so to the devolved parliaments, this makes sense in a no deal scenario. For immediately in one fell swoop the UK becomes one single market in terms on trade deal with US etc.

    I think that we are walking into the disaster scenario that we have all been talking about for the past few years. And we are walking into it…with ease.

    There will soon be an ‘national’ emergency announce and guidelines issued, probably curfews etc.

    I think it’s best to face up to the reality now.

    Unfortunately this is all now too little too late for the Scottish gov to really do anything.

    Does this all seem a little far fetched, a little gloomy and pessimistic. Or do we all want to keep bitching amongst ourselves about the finer aspects of the constitution?

    It’s over. Fuck knows what we will do about any of it now. Except…march? Again? Pfft!

  40. Daisy Walker says:

    I had thought that Stephen Kinnock’s amendment was put in, so that this 3rd option could once again be put before the WM parliament and once again burn the clock down. There will only be about a 6 or 7 days of parliament after the Queens speech and before 31/10/19 Brexit Day – so a nice we time consuming exercise once again. His mum and dad are multi millionaires, still serving in House of Lords I think.

    In either event – No deal or Terrible May’s shit deal – there will be sufficient disruption – for there to be major party shifts of alliance.

    One thing ALL the UNIONIST Parties will be united on, is that they will not want the Scottish Electorate ANYWHERE Near a Ballot Box while SNP are running so clearly ahead in the polls.

    I fear we are putting a lot of emotional eggs into this (GE) basket just now, and while we clearly have to cover this ground and prepare for a GE, we also need to mentally prepare for the possibility of some form of G.ofUnity/alliance (without a GE) after NoDeal/Shit Deal to deal with the emergency – during which time the SNP will most definitely be locked out at WM, and Holyrood sidelined one way or another.

    Once again it is worth pointing out a S30 order signed by any and all of the unionist parties at WM would not be worth the paper it is written on. It is a plea for a level playing field when we are 2/3rd through the game and need to concentrate on scoring goals. (and I hate football/sports metaphors…. that’s how serious the situation is.)

    The unionist parties at Westminster are an establishment orchestra – they all have their different parts to sing, to sooth different sections of the electorate – but they are all establishment servants. It could have passed JCherry’s bill to cancel A50 earlier this year – but Labour sabotaged it – that was not by accident.

    The only thing I see breaking the deadlock in a big way, would be for the EU to play at divide and conquer – and turn round and say – you can have an extension, but not with regards the tax haven legislation – that starts now. Our national media would go into overdrive to make shit up and decry them however, and its not their problem really.

    I would really like to know – what is the situation for our Scottish establishment figures, with assets in Tax Havens, if the UK and Scotland come out, and then Scotland re-joins, how would that affect their tax bill? Would it re-set the clock and the accounts be seen to be new?

  41. Martin says:

    “Ken500 says:

    There will be no (no deal) Brexit from the EU as suggested in any way shape or form. Any politician who sanctioned it will be gone. Johnston will not last until October. The UK will never leave the EU as suggested. Statistically impossible. It does not have the majority. Self destructive behaviour.”

    I am absolutely certain there will be a no deal brexit. Again, Stu called this years ago..but everyone ignores him because he’s vile.

    “robin key says:

    They will never ever ever kick us out as they do not want to be seen historically as having kicked us out, so will always offer extensions
    so the solution of hard soft or no Brexit is always going to come down to us”

    Absolutely correct. Brexit was British by design and British by (exceptionally poor) execution. It will be no deal and it will be the UK driving the bus.

  42. Street Andrew says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Let’s say they say “No, we’ll only give you an extension for a new election” (which is stupendously unlikely as it’d be the EU directly interfering in another country’s domestic politics).”

    They WERE saying this before the March 29th ‘deadline’. The offer (as I understood it at the time) was extension would be granted to allow for a second referendum(heaven help us) or a General Election.

    Has the EU position changed on this ?

  43. Somerled says:

    I’m Always bemused by amateur idiots like Alan who think they understand things better than Wings. This is a full time occupation for Stuart who i believe reads every relevant newspaper, every opinion poll, website, television news. I am not saying Stu is never wrong but he has proven time and again that many of his predictions come true. Some biased people wont accept he knows what he is talking about whether they like it or not

  44. Arthur Thomson says:

    This Brexit thing is so interesting.

    How very cunning Britishers are. The EU apparently don’t even see that they are being mugged by their superiors.

    The true British values of conceit and contempt rarely fail, they just demand that millions of vulnerable, innocent people get hurt in the process. A small price to pay for the glorification of Britannia.

    I suppose it is really churlish of me to hope that they get a right doing.

  45. Socrates MacSporran says:

    De Piffle wants a No Deal exit – and he wants to be able to persuade his tame lackeys in the Unionist media, that it was all the EU’s fault.

    Classic English exceptionalism, everyone is out of step but our Nigel.

  46. Breeks says:

    Capella says:
    10 September, 2019 at 12:30 pm

    …What this whole clown show demonstrates is that the antiquated procedures of the HoC and lack of a written constitution collapse when taken over by a chap who is neither decent nor smart and is advised by a very clever power hungry Gollum.

    True, but doesn’t it make you more than a little jealous that a rogue and obnoxious gobshite can get away so much, while the legitimate grievances of a Sovereign Nation enduring one humiliating subjugation after another, don’t even warrant a headline or even a mere suggestion of disruptive disobedience?

    All we have which holds any promise is Ian Blackford saying Scotland will not be removed from Europe against it’s will. Whether that’s true, or just a slogan waiting for the side of a bus remains to be seen. But if it isn’t true, and Scotland is bounced out of Europe, the SNP will need an inspired strategy to overturn the cynicism and disgust that many pro Indy, pro Europe voters like myself will be feeling from Brexit day +1.

    The SNP’s flagrant disregard for Scottish Sovereignty, their lacklustre and pedestrian defence of Scotland’s place in Europe, and their dismal failure to make any political capital out of the whole Brexit fiasco and disintegration of Westminster’s integrity, and their apparent profligacy with one mandate followed by another, and another, should all conspire to make for an “interesting” manifesto in 2020.

    It rather begs the question whether such a feckless and tedious SNP campaign, (it has been a campaign hasn’t it?), which allows Scotland to be shunted out of Europe, and suffer the avoidable calamity of Brexit which even a humble defence of our constitutional sovereignty would have averted, might very well be looking for new leadership itself long before 2020.

    To all those who now cheer themselves up saying Scottish Independence is inevitable, please tell me how it will be achieved. Please, give me the A, B, C path to victory. One more mandate? One more majority? A bigger majority? Our Scottish Government doesn’t seem to know what to do with the power they’re given.

    Our sovereign liberty is right there for the taking. The Union of the United Kingdom is untenable, because one sovereign Nation chooses one direction, and the other chooses another and neither can change direction. The difference is irreconcilable. The spell is broken. The only way we can lose is to concede our sovereignty and acquiesce to theirs… and Jeezo, God help us, isn’t that exactly what we are doing???

    Brexit is D-Day SNP. Scotland stays in Europe. That’s the only manifesto commitment that matters.

  47. Roger Mexico says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Section 3 just says “if the EU offers an extension the PM must accept it”. What’s your point?

    And this is the key clause. The EU offers two year (the French are mainly pissed off about the succession of short ones) and the Westminster Village Idiot is forced to accept. Cue more Tory civil war and general hilarity.

    (Personally I’d offer 99 years for wickedness, but’s that just me).

  48. Street Andrew says:

    ElGordo says:

    “At the 1948 Summer Olympics in London the organisers insisted that the Irish team march under the banner “Eire” notwithstanding that every other team was marching according to what their name was in English.”

    Politics is a quair game. Surely every country should be recognised by its name in it’s own language… ???

    But never mind…. If the Irish want their country to be called Ireland I’m happy to go along with that. I hadn’t realised it was such a vexed question.

    Useful posting, ElGordo. Thanks.

  49. Dennis Nicholson says:

    Hard to believe it was an accident and wouldn’t put it past Boris. That said, I’m getting to the point where I want Boris to get his no deal Brexit then maybe we could get the SNP to focus on getting us independence…

  50. laukat says:

    I think Rev Stu is on the right lines but perhaps there may be an additional twist.

    Bojo has under the no deal legislation until the 19th to either pass a deal in the UK parliament or request an extension.

    What if he tables Mays deal on the 15th October but then gets backbenchers to table amendments such as removing the backtops that lead to the bill passing the UK parliament on the 18th? He’ll arguably have complied with the law (or at least doen enough to make a court battle take longer than 31st October to resolve) and not had to ask for en extension.

    He’ll present it as the UK has proposed something workable but the nasty EU said No therefore No deal it is

  51. donnywho says:

    Can Boris as the leader of one of the 27 not actually veto Britain getting an extention?

    I realize it is an absurd idea… but all politics right now are beyond the pale and why wouldn’t he?

    So he goes to Brussels and asks for the extention, parliament’s mandate fully complied with, then it is refused because of a EU veto!

    We are out and Boris is the hero of all Brexiteers. Time to call for an election!

  52. Richard C says:

    Section 3 just says “if the EU offers an extension the PM must accept it”. What’s your point?
    The point is that if the EU come back and say “we’ll offer you an extension for 3 years, and you lose the opt-outs” then he’ll have to accept. That’s going to piss so many people off. And amuse a good few too!

  53. ElGordo says:

    @Street Andrew

    Surely every country should be recognised by its name in it’s own language… ???

    ??, ?? and ??? could agree with you but it may get a bit tricky.

  54. ElGordo says:

    woops, double byte character set not supported

  55. manandboy says:

    Labour List has a bit to say about the Kinnoch amendment.

    I’m just going to have another closer, look at it. I don’t want to drop any screws.

  56. Roger Mexico says:

    donnywho says:

    Can Boris as the leader of one of the 27 not actually veto Britain getting an extention?

    No, because the 27 doesn’t include the UK (everyone forgets Croatia). As soon as Article 50 was invoked the UK lost much of its powers on voting and even participation in the EU – which makes sense if you think about it. Boris has no veto.

  57. Effijy says:

    Rev, this site must be very strenuous to develop, maintain and manage.
    You have worked like a slave for many years under pressure from the vast
    Resources that are the UK elites servants and people pretending to have
    Minds posting here.

    I thought no we are nearing the end of our journey but this is where the heat is really
    Turned up.

    Is there any way you can have a holiday away from all this and try to refresh mind and body?

    I wish I knew you even better but I think I can see stress levels building and we/Scotland needs
    You at your best for the final push.

    I hope you can take this in good faith?

    I would have been put in a straight jacket long ago if I’d been in your shoes.

  58. Papko says:

    “Somerled says:
    1:53 pm

    I agree with that, the Rev’s analysis is usually very good and many of his predictions uncanny.
    I would also point out that the blog is read by a fair swathe of people who do not support Scottish independence(like myself). But still appreciate the vintage analysis.
    I would guess that some posters on here these last few days have a bit of sour grapes, as some of the Rev’s conclusions have been controversial; indeed undermining the very notion of our FM’s infallibility.

  59. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – doesn’t it make you more than a little jealous that a rogue and obnoxious gobshite can get away so much

    Not really. Hitler was quite bold and radical . Six years later he was dead in a ditch.

  60. Ian McCubbin says:

    Its beyond logic and sense now.
    None of WM MPs doing anything to run a country or help there constituents.
    Independence now and get Ian Blackford telt his country and constituents matter more than playing WM games.
    As for Boris, hell mend him, earth cannae.

  61. manandboy says:

    And omitted to say… as Stu has already referred to above. Dropped a screw there. (It’s an age, stage and condition thing.)

  62. call me dave says:

    I heard this guy in the commons extolling the Union just last week. I commented on it along with the other guy Luke. 🙂

    “Two proud bridges in the days without Chinese steel” is going to be the last thing I heard him say. Going going gone!

    A Scottish Conservative MP has announced he will stand down at the next general election.

    Bill Grant won the Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock seat in 2017 after overturning a large SNP majority.

  63. Giving Goose says:

    All the various routes that Boris & co can go down to reach their chosen destination, thanks to the non-written Westminster constitution.

    It makes you wonder what alternative routes are available to the Scottish Government. After all what’s good for the goose (no pun intended) etc.

  64. Colin Alexander says:

    Ach. We are aw stressin’ too much, getting oorselves into a fash.

    Ian Blackford has repeatedly promised us the SNP won’t allow the UK to drag Scotland out of the EU against her will.

    eg. 04/09/2019:”The people of Scotland voted to remain in the European Union and we are not going to be dragged out against our will by the Prime Minister”.

    The SNP don’t lie, so we’ll be staying in until the people of Scotland decide otherwise.

    Wont we?

  65. Proud Cybernat says:

    EU Extensions of 3 months or 100 years are just that – extensions. The UK can leave the EU at any time within the extension period. It is not obligated to remain for the full term of any agreed extension.

  66. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Breeks @ 13:59,

    Our difficulty has not really been with the SNP, but with the Scottish people. Too many of them have been just a tad too unwilling to shift on this issue. To the point that back in 2017 too many preferred to take Buffalo Gal’s easy way out – the ostrich option – and hoped that the whole troubling business would just go away. (Some chance!) It would have been so much easier if we had had our 60%+ already yelling for freedom, but it just wasn’t so. Blame the lumpen unenlightened masses for exercising their sovereignity so pathetically.

    OK, there’s an argument for saying that the SNP could have been more active in rallying opposition to the ongoing situation – and many of us do feel that to some extent – but you can’t lead where people are unwilling to follow. “Thatnicolasturgin just causing me trouble.”

    In the meantime the BritNat state under the pressure of Brexit has revealed far more of its true colours, and many more people are now realising for themselves that what we told them back in 2014 was perfectly true. So the SNP strategy has been essentially correct. Allow people time to work it through.

    But now we are approaching the turning point, and a change to a more proactive strategy would seem appropriate. And that is what actually seems to be happening (despite the occasional resurfacing of the old dispiriting bleat for “certainty+”).

    The first step is clear – the SNP come out full-tilt for IR2 in the upcoming UKGE and reverse the sitution of 2017 in the most convincing manner possible. That gives encouragement to the more hesitant of the population and shows that there is a viable common way forward. And whatever UKGov is in charge, they can no longer hide under the assertion that there isn’t the support.

    What happens next depends to some extent on the UKGov reaction. If they refuse again, it will drive more people into the indy camp, so the good old Union escalates its path of its own self-destruction. Or they concede, take their chances, and we win. The end result though is the same.

    It’s about the people of Scotland, Breeks. It always has been.

    (PS: sorry about the previous mis-posting. Something got away by some finger slip or another.)

  67. dadsarmy says:

    I don’t really understand this article to be honest, as the form of the letter is specified in the Legislation. Page 4

    SCHEDULE Section 1

    “Dear Mr President,

    The UK Parliament has passed the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Its provisions now require Her Majesty’s Government to seek an extension of the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty, currently due to expire at 11.00pm GMT on 31 October 2019, until 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020.

    I am writing therefore to inform the European Council that the United Kingdom is seeking a further extension to the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty. The United Kingdom proposes that this period should end at 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020. If the parties are able to ratify before this date, the Government proposes that the period should be terminated early.

    Yours sincerely,

    Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

    The only thing is the Act is not on yet as far as I can see, so the Bill as described is not neccessarily the Act as Assented. And there’s number 6es and number 2s, things have changed since I were a lad.

  68. galamcennalath says:

    Gordon Federal Brown … “No matter how much it is dressed up as a patriotic act, Brexit would be the biggest own goal in our peacetime economic history. “

    OUR? Who is the ‘our’ here?

    I have no doubt that from an England perspective, that is correct. (Is Broon English now?)

    Scotland never chose Brexit. From a Scottish standpoint, the biggest own goal in our peacetime economic history must surely be voting NO in 2014?

    Being subjected to Brexit can only be placed at the feet of voting NO.

    Sadly, Broon will never accept ownership of the shiteshow he has brought down upon Scotland.

  69. Like Cyprus, India, Palestine, and so many more former colonies, England (sic) having partitioned Ireland nearly a century ago, will now complete its withdrawal from the Emerald Isle by agreeing to a border down the Irish Sea, the irish Backstop.
    Johnson and the rabid Brexit xenophobes do not give sh1t what happens Over There, thereafter.
    This will be the rabbit Johnson will pull out of the hat at the EU Summit 17th October.
    Arlene has followed Ruth is resigning and heading for the hills before the balloon goes up.

  70. Mark Russell says:

    Given the other disclosures this week, it certainly makes sense. Another chance to discredit Labour too – not that it’s too difficult these days. I posted the following on WGD earlier this morning.

    Isn’t the logical and sensible course of action to dissolve the UK on 31/10 and hold elections for an English parliament next? Scotland and preferably a unified Ireland – perhaps Wales too – should decide where their national sovereignty lies. Most likely in Europe.

    Why should borders be an issue in Britain? Switzerland, Sweden all have borders with countries in the EU. Minimal disruption and no trade barriers. Technology – right? It was proposed for Ireland, but would apply equally at the Scottish border – and would be less contentious by a stretch.

    Abolish the Lords and maybe in time an advisory council for nations of the British Isles – and lets all get on with life, be good friends and have a laugh at how stupid we can all be, most the time. Or is that too simple? If you ask the voters south of Carlisle, I suspect they’d bite both your hands off.

  71. defo says:

    Has there been another Brownian Motion?
    Someone get him a pack of Imodium ffs

  72. dadsarmy says:

    Mmm, so they tell us the Bill has got Royal Assent meaning it’s an Act, but we can’t get to see the actual version which received assent, or at least I can’t find it, last version dated 4th Sept – the original. So for all we know it might just say by now “The EU, is a poo and BoJo was here”.

    Pretty pathetic.

  73. mogabee says:

    Clearly, hahaha no laughing in the back, the politicians are purely taking us for fucking eejits now!

    Any longer and I think we should take over the parliament and just not let them back in.

    So scunnered, so so scunnered…

  74. call me dave says:

    @Jack collatin:

    I don’t understand what you mean when you said

    “Arlene has followed Ruth is resigning and heading for the hills before the balloon goes up”.
    I googled Arlene (latest)

    DUP’s Arlene Foster rules out seeking Westminster seat.

  75. CameronB Brodie says:

    The full-English Brexit has provided a case studie in how not to create constitutional law and impliment public policy. Going along with it because it was a ‘democratic vote’, is the hight of stupid, frankly. Given the Brexit campaign was perverted by one of the largest electoral frauds in British history, the vote provides very shakey foundations for democracy to rest on. Not least because cultural chauvanism and collective narssacism tend not to be regaurded as positive virtues. Rather, they are emotional states that are strangers to ethical reason.

    British democracy is screwed. The PM may be acting within legal constraints, but his aim is to pervert the British constituion, which is justified through a moral law requirement for equality between Scotland and England. Constitutional legal doctrine that lacks a respect for moral law and moral justice, tends towards illiberal authoritarianism (see Spain). I’m sure the respected members of the Scottish law fraternity would agree. At least the one’s who aren’t fans of British xenaphobia and the New Right.

    The Prime Minister may appear be acting on a democratic mandate, but how was that mandate obtained? What is the quality of that mandate and what will be the likely consequences of that mandate, for social cohesion? Liberal constitutionalism has no future if due attention isn’t given to how the concensus is managed. Just look at how folk are thinking about Brexit now, with the media having eased off on selling the kool=aid. Yet it appears there is no stopping the lemming express.

    Media definitely do matter: Brexit, immigration, climate change and beyond

  76. call me dave says:

    Jings! The pound is struggling upwards against everything!

    UK FTSE’s all up but the big Yankee DOW is downwards at the moment.

    I will be a little poorer in the early hours if it continues: 🙁

  77. Ken500 says:

    They will just pass another useless, worthless waste of time Bill, overturning that decision. Chaos ensures. A bunch of Westminster unionist imbeciles.

  78. HandandShrimp says:

    What date is Boris supposed to ask for this extension by?

  79. Ken500 says:

    The only thing they could organise is a piss up at a brewery. They are half cut most of the time. Hanging out in bars molesting each other. Rubbing up each other the wrong way. The Westminster imbecile unionists.

  80. Nana says:



    “..some officials in Whitehall are concerned about such an enormous transfer of data being done at speed, behind closed doors, at a time of national crisis.
    …the move raised a huge number of legal and ethical questions.”

  81. ScotsRenewables says:

    Isn’t it time to impose direct rule on Westminster from Holyrood?

  82. Ken500 says:

    Another one down, another one gone. Another one hits the dust. The Tories further disintegrating. In a matter of time soon there will be none left. Especially in Scotland. The wool has been pulled from many eyes. Not following like sheep.

  83. call me dave says:

    Hi Cameron! 🙂

  84. Ken500 says:

    The misguided news has a lot to do with it. Massive

  85. call me dave @4.20 pm.
    It is reported that she is standing down.
    Boris is meeting two DUP MP’s today apparently, hard on the heels of his meeting with the Irish PM.
    Of course if the North of Ireland remains in the EU, which was their voting intention, then Scotland must surely have the same deal?

  86. boris says:

    A way forward?

    Her Majesty, acting on the advice of the inner “Privy Council” has ordered that a General Election should be held on 15 October 2019 so that a new approach to exiting the EU might be agreed.

  87. Ken500 says:

    Especially commentators who quote Sky twitter feed news.

    The Westminster imbeciles going to war with each other.

    ‘US/UK going to war with China’.

    Hardly likely.

    UK pop 62Million+ The US pop £320Million+ = 382Million

    Chinese population 1.3Billion.

    Take a step back. Or alienation all around.

  88. Alex Birnie says:

    If the “Dear Europe letter” isn”t twisting the facts into a pretzel, then I don’t know what is. This is precisely the kind of twisting and lampooning that Stu has jumped on and torn to pieces, when written by unionist journalists, and now here he is, engaging in the same type of polemic.

    I just hope that the polling questions he asks before launching his career as the “Scottish Farridge” CEO and sole shareholder of “Wings” – the Scottish equivalent of the Brexit party, are slightly less biased and leading.

  89. Effijy says:

    How about All posts being constructive and ending on a positive note for the rest of the month?

    How about no bickering for days and weeks when you feel someone’s Point of view is flawed?

    No disparaging remarks about the only party who can deliver independence nor the people managing this web site.

    Just imagine that everyone reading or posting here is of a nervous disposition and the slightest
    Upset could see them die from a heart attack.

    Ask questions nicely in a polite and courteous manner.

    Give it s try and new visitors and those returning, might want to stay with us and they might spread the good word and we might just become Independent .

    Posting facts and figures about the many failings of the Westminster Parties and UK Media’s corrupt propaganda tactics may interest the people we need to come here and it may change a few
    No voters to Yes and they my sow these seeds in other fields.

    Bickering and name calling detract from this wonderful site.

    Let’s sweep with a new broom that shows us to be united, that shows us operating with facts and never fake news, with morality with inclusion and with a quest to build a new Scotland of the people for the people and by the person that people.

    Would America have thrived if their founding fathers had some of these posts within their declaration of Independence?

  90. Zen Broon says:

    Ay,ay. We keep looking for Machiavellian machinations in the Brexiteers, but all that is ever revealed is stupidity and incompetence. Johnson wants people to think he is a clever-dick in a bumbling idiot’s body, but his track record shows he is actually a bumbling idiot in a bumbling idiot’s body. Stu is taken in (as many are, to be fair) by the wafer-thin Eton veneer. Varadkar made him look like the utter chump he is.

  91. Essexexile says:

    I was listening to BBC Radio 5 as the absent teller ‘fiasco’ happened and the amendment approved. A remain politician (honestly can’t remember who) being interviewed in the Westminster lobby said at one point ‘Michael Gove has just walked past me grinning from ear to ear.’
    Makes some sense why now.

  92. dakk says:

    Farage was on LBC last night adamant that Johnson was about to throw NI under a bus.

    Looks like that might be afoot right enough.

  93. David.S. says:

    Wingers should take a look at latest UK Column News article re Lord James of Blackheath’s intervention in the House of Lords
    concerning a conference debating the threat to democracy, industry and alliances.

    In my thinking both Boris and Jeremy are fighting against deeper interests than are made public re the E.U.

  94. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Zen Broon (5.14) –

    ‘…his track record shows he is actually a bumbling idiot in a bumbling idiot’s body.’


    With permission, I am going to tweet that quote.

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  95. I see Arlene foster and Nigel Dodds are in NO 10 as I write.
    I definitely read somewhere that she is standing down Probably a combination of the Irish Sea Border and the dragging its heels into her part in the ‘Cash For Ash’ tens of millions doled out to her maily pals in farming in Northern Ireland; Free Money which brought Stormont down.
    She’ll want to be well away when that scandal and fiddle hits the fan.
    It’s nailed on now.
    Irish Sea Backstop for five years.

  96. mr thms says:

    Breaking News –

    Glasgow is to host a UN Climate Change
    Conference in 2020. 200 Heads of State will attend.

    I wonder if it will coincide with the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath?

  97. mr thms says:

    Regarding Mr Johnson asking for an extension as a result of the opposition Act..

    Which law comes first??

    “The Government has signed into law legislation to repeal the Act of Parliament which set in stone Britain’s EU (EEC) membership in 1972.”

    It continues

    “The repeal of the European Communities Act 1972 will take effect when Britain formally leaves the EU on October 31.”

  98. Merkin Scot says:

    I spoke with a top EC official at the time of the referendum. It was stated that the EU would not have to do anything much as it was the UK that had decided to leave. Simple.

  99. Nana says:


    Hogan signals ‘movement’ on both sides of Brexit negotiations

  100. Tam the Bam. says:


    Steve Bannon…sacked.

    John Bolton … sacked.

    Probably the most ‘hawkish’ America First guys fired from Trumps administration.
    Conclusion: Despite all his bluster…Trump is a bottler (thank f**k).

  101. Nana says:


    re the above report on RTE

    Tony Connelly says

    So, Phil Hogan, the new Trade Commissioner, spoke to me shortly after the announcement of the new Commission and made some interesting observations about the state of play in the Brexit negotiations

  102. Tam the Bam. says:

    Arlene Foster about to go live @ Downing st.

  103. David says:

    No tellers was no mistake .And Boris looks as if he will cut a deal with the DUP.

  104. dadsarmy says:

    “There was BoJo pushin’ it, shovin’ it, shushin’ it
    Hogan, Logan and all the bally crew
    Police, and auxiliary, the Garrison Artillery
    The Second Foot and Mouth and the Life Guards too

    They seized it and harried it, they picked it up and carried it
    Cheered it, steered it to the winnin’ place
    Then the bookmakers drew aside and they all committed suicide
    The day Cameron’s Brexit lost the half – arse – race”

  105. Bob Mack says:

    Arlene not happy. Walks straight past the microphysical. Could it be the second sell out of the Ulster British by the Tories?

  106. Bob Mack says:

    Microphone. Where the hell did that word microphysical come from? Perhaps Arlene being brought down to size?

  107. johnj says:

    Nailed it Stu. I have to admit I was wondering what the F**** Stephen Kinnock was up to.

  108. johnj says:

    And I’m thinking that Corbyn’s remarks at the TUC conference today reveal that he was in on it.

  109. Gary says:

    Two small points. Firstly, it wasn’t the government who failed to provide ‘tellers’ It is the duty of those bringing the bill to provide the tellers and usually that is the government, but NOT in this case. In this case the Labour Party ‘forgot’ to do this. So the amendment got through ‘accidentally’ Who knows, maybe it WAS an accident.

    Secondly, the letter that Boris is required to submit has been pre-drafted. This has been done precisely to avoid exactly what you have mocked up in your article.

    There’s nothing to stop Boris submitting a second letter before and/or after the pre drafted letter. THIS may be his way of ensuring that UK exits on 31st October.

    I have no doubt that Boris CAN get round this, but I think it depends on just how far he is willing to go to have his will done. At the moment he is walking on the edge of legality, with at least the ‘appearance’ of propriety. That could change within the next few months. One thing that WON’T change is Scotland’s need to be free of this fiasco…

  110. Phronesis says:

    ‘In a chaotic final session — marked by scenes of pandemonium in the wee hours of Tuesday — Johnson’s bid for a new vote was soundly defeated, continuing a remarkable streak in which the once-swaggering prime minister has lost every key vote of his young premiership…
    After the vote, Johnson once again insisted he will never ask for an extension, having said last week he would “rather be dead in a ditch.” But the law gives him no choice. Top ministers have said in recent days that the government plans to “test the law to its limits,” implying they may seek to skirt its requirements. Some hard line Brexiteers have suggested he become “a martyr” to the cause, and allow himself to be jailed for contempt’

    Well if you insist – jail might be be the best option for the leader of the Bullingdon 0.1% Gangsta Party. Are they the Boris or Bowery Boys (and girls ). Difficult to tell which century they think they’re in.The House of Cummings is on lockdown the ‘Dom’ wants his foot soldiers to come north of the Watford Gap and meet the poor -presumably to evangelise about food shortages, medicine shortages, business and economic collapse .Tough love innit – subversive threats about kneecapping, targeting, death in ditches and falling into the sea.
    Do remember the north is another country, Scotland. We have better ideas,ones that involve democracy, population well being and the affirmation of our nation status on the international arena. We have our own crew, are passionate about the cause,resilient and we will win the turf war.

  111. Breeks says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    10 September, 2019 at 3:33 pm

    ….It’s about the people of Scotland, Breeks. It always has been….

    I know where you’re coming from Robert, but I disagree in a constructive way I hope.

    Before I’m ready to “trust the people” I believe those of us amongst the people who are aware and alert to the continual insidious indoctrination going on, have a duty to frustrate the aims of those who are doing the indoctrination. Unless and until we can eradicate this pernicious interference in our political and National discourse, then I am greatly troubled to merely accept that the “will of the people” is truly just that, or whether it represents a dubious success for the Propagandists. I don’t like the term brainwashed, but can a brainwashed population actually return a democratic mandate that properly means anything? I think it cannot.

    And add to that all the shenanigans which goes on in our elections, everything from 96% of postal ballots being returned, to “counters” being bussed in from South of the Border, and then we have this d’Honte system especially doctored to prevent a clear majority at Holyrood…. We all know the list of suspect anomalies, all the lies in 2014 and the brazen disregard for Purdah rules… and yet, out of this shitestorm emerges a “democratic” result which must be respected for it’s sacred integrity. It’s a pig in a poke and we all know it.

    I’m not anti democracy, but I’m greatly troubled that our democracy is in such very poor health and isn’t reliable. And when our democracy is thus compromised, to me, there is eminent logic in suspending democracy, pending a forensic examination and analysis of the extent to which our people are being manipulated and influenced to think in a particular way.

    I don’t mean suspending democracy in the Boris Johnson way, such as shutting down institutions, but suspending the widespread expectation that controversial issues like Brexit can be resolved by a democratic process that is so highly suspect and tainted by BritNat propaganda.

    If Scotland was to assert sovereignty, (and Brexit gives us such a wonderful opportunity to do just that), we allow the Scotland the opportunity to access a wholly separate Constitutional landscape where the Nation of Scotland is reset to it’s factory settings. We, the people of Scotland are sovereign in that landscape, and if we want broadcast media, we should have it; but our broadcast media, not the skewed and hostile propaganda we have to put up with at present.

    Unless we control our democracy, I don’t see any way of ever fixing our democracy. It is doomed forever to be tainted by the BBC and Westminster led agenda, and tainted is precisely the correct word we should use. The mere presence of this indoctrination should be bad enough to warrant change, but just as damaging is the suppression of our own broadcasting channels… propaganda by omission.

    Restore Scotland to it’s factory settings; we the people of Scotland are sovereign, and rebuild our National Constitution from it’s vanilla original condition, keeping the features which work well and constitute the fabric which bind our society, and reject and discard the features we want removed from our society. We can also throw a whole bunch of dubious constitutional matters we’re really not sure about into a constitutional quarantine where we cannot be damaged by them, while we unpick their legitimacy or otherwise.

    Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty gives us a mechanism and a legitimacy to think for ourselves, base judgements on our laws, and the beauty of it is it’s sovereign! Nobody can interfere with our process.

    To my mind, the Constitutional route to Independence establishes fact from fiction, and each step we take is reinforced by lawful legitimacy and sovereign integrity. There is no duplicity or misdirection from any parasitic twin Constitution trying to influence our actions.

    By comparison, a democratic referendum merely invites the BBC and BritNat Establishment to trample all over our naive innocence and claim it’s jus primae noctis to fk with our democracy as it’s self proclaimed entitlement.

    Democracy opens our door to the Westminster regime and all of it’s pernicious minions and perfidious small print. Our Sovereignty is written in our hand, nobody else’s, and gives the bastards nothing.

  112. Doug says:

    If the new “border” is down the Irish sea then the Scottish government will rightly demand its own “border” with the EU and UK.

  113. crazycat says:

    @ Jack Collatin

    A few days ago, at least two newspapers reported that Arlene Foster was “standing down as an MP”, which was very clever of her, because she has never been an MP.

    Is that what you were referring to, or has she subsequently stood down as either an MLA, the leader of the DUP, or both? I can’t find evidence of that with a quick google.

  114. Lenny Hartley says:

    Phronesis, there was a blog from these islands (no not that one) which is worth a read, he reckons legal action unlikely to succeed.

  115. HandandShrimp says:

    Trump is a hypersensitive egotist who dislikes foreigners but he does appear to be able to see the dangerous crazy in the likes Bannon and Bolton.

  116. ahundredthidiot says:

    mr thms @5:42 – since you are going OT, so will I….

    ……re breaking news on COP26

    Now…..there is Peter Ridd……who you could go look up (and maybe you might become interested in the replication crisis – there’s a shocker that no one wants to talk about) or you could just cut to the chase and go on YouTube and look up Dan Pena on Global warming.

    Because quite frankly – apart from being sucked in and paying extra for 100% renewable Lecky energy bills (how fucking stupid was I?) – I’ve had enough of this shit and it’s about to get in our way in a crucial year for our political future.

  117. RM says:

    The SNP are playing the English game at Westminster, the English have to start playing our game at Holyrood, Ian Blackfords a great speaker but all his speeches will never do a bit of good nobody at Westminster could care less about Scotland except for certain Scots themselves, all the other politicians are part of the English establishment, different tactics needed I think.

  118. Tam the Bam. says:

    Bob Mack @ 6-24pm

    I hope so.

  119. call me dave says:

    DUP hold “positive” meeting with Boris Johnson

  120. Iain mhor says:

    Fantasy politics needs fantasy solutions, here’s one – with the caveat, that because I don’t cover it, it doesn’t mean I haven’t considered it. We’re talking madskull politics, where the rules are – there are no rules – right?

    The only real question of Brexit is the GFA and its leverage. The EU wants a trade/customs deal, far more than the UK (or at least more than Boris and the lizard men) It is using the GFA for that. But it has to be resolved eventually and the EU know that too.

    If Boris goes to the EU with some hint of movement in the GFA impasse, the EU will say “We’re listening, have an extension” How does Boris keep to the GFA, yet achieve a hard Brexit for the UK? No-one else could, but were they as mad?
    He could throw N.I away, but that’s highly unlikely – though we are considering any insanity at this stage as viable. Or, he could bounce it back to the EU, by changing the status of N.I to a Crown Protectorate.

    I never said this was going to be sane, or how he’d get that legislation passed. But consider in three years, no-one could solve the conundrum, would they clutch at any straw.

    Crown Protectorates have autonomy of legislation and also in the trade deals they cut with the UK (They all ratified a new round of deals last year) How does that get around EU tariffs movement etc? you might well ask. It’s then for the EU to grant a dispensation to N.I (as a Protectorate) to trade under EU legislation. It’s in the EU’s gift, they have special dispensations all over Europe (and beyond) as it is, (including the current deals with Ireland/N.I) and they won’t be granting a dispensation to a member state either.

    The deals N.I subsequently cuts with the UK, is then no longer the EU’s concern, so long as N.I remains in alignment with the EU. Remembering also, that N.I isn’t in alignment with a lot of UK legislation as it is anyway – it already has precedent for autonomous legislation.
    A clamour from other UK protectorates to have the same dispensation? Knock it back to the EU, they want to keep the GFA don’t they, over and above anything as sordid as money (ha) Or the UK might just tell the other protectorates to STFU (like Scotland) entirely the UK’s choice.

    The UK will get its hard Brexit – or in fact any Brexit it wants – but will probably become a “third country” to the EU and the shekels will become a trickle, but they won’t stop. The GFA remains intact, N.I is still ‘Under the Crown’ the nature of their border with the UK is entirely up to them and everyone’s a great statesman.

    I could cover much more and preempt counter arguments as to why this stupid idea won’t work. What’s more interesting though, insane as it appears (and it is stupid and insane) is how it might be made to work.
    Where does Scotland fit into this? Nowhere, no-one gives a shit about Scotland – all it gets us is Brexited. Though we do get a Brexit deal that’s finalised and known, before we all go old and grey(er) Enough to move to an Indyref while still ostensibly under the aegis of the EU, so that’s something.

    You may now hurl invective my way…

  121. Tam the Bam. says:

    Hand and Shrimp @ 6-59pm

    Donald Trump … ‘see the dangerous and crazy’…..oh my lord!

  122. Ealasaid says:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross 10.9.19 – Small sectarian “riots”. Fake police advice.

  123. Tam the Bam. says:

    RM @ 7-11pm

    But whilst Scotland is compelled to select their own MP’s for Westminster……..what do you suggest?

    p.s. I have my answer…and its non-negotiable.

  124. Lenny Hartley says:

    Big Ian, thats a cracker, this explains a crown protectorates relationship with Europe.

  125. Sarah says:

    @Stuart Campbell: why not ask an SNP MP about this? If not yourself [as you haven’t got a constituency SNP MP] but by someone who has an important MP? [I can’t ask mine because I wasted his time with a stupid question yesterday!]

  126. galamcennalath says:

    It must be really annoying to everyone else in NI, the way the DUP are treated by the Tories as ‘the voice of NI’!

    DUP recent support …

    2017 GE 36%
    2017 Assemby 1st prev 28%
    2016 Assemby 1st prev 29%
    2015 GE 26%

    Biggest party, yes. But speaking for the majority? A long way short.

  127. Bob Mack says:

    @Ian Mhor,

    I think you’ve nailed it Ian. The perfect solution for Boris.

    Not so much for Scotland though.

  128. Tam the Bam. says:

    gallamencellath @ 7-56pm

    I concur.

  129. Doug says:

    @Iain mhor 7:29pm

    “The GFA remains intact, N.I is still ‘Under the Crown’ the nature of their border with the UK is entirely up to them and everyone’s a great statesman.”

    Just wondering, Iain, by “them” do you mean NI or UK?

  130. Tam the Bam. says:

    Anyway……..this has been bothering me for a time now

    Did Alex sway way or another …re a Wings Party

    Yes or No Stu.

  131. Bob Mack says:

    @IAN MHOR,

    I’ve now checked out your reasoning ,including the link by Lenny Hartley.
    I salute you. Brilliant deductive reasoning. It all fits now.
    Johnson meeting in Ireland yesterday and meeting the DUP today.

    All that is involved is a change (minor) of terminology for N Ireland,but with all the protections the DUP require.

    You should have been an SNP strategist.

    Now Scotland. We have missed a very big boat here. Outflanked, outmanoeuvred.

    The SNP now must include indy in the next election,because if Ian is correct then we will have a deal with the EU, and the chance of dissatisfaction evaporates.

  132. cynicalHighlander says:

    @Tam the Bam

    Why on earth should that bother you?

    Stu’s his own man if you haven’t learnt anything.

  133. call me dave says:


    U21s Scotland 2 V Croatia 1 🙂

    Dodgy stream but a good game.

  134. call me dave says:

    Oops :
    Scotland was away. Sorry 🙁

  135. Sarah says:

    O/T – Jolyon Maugham’s twitter says he has been told that Johnson told the Cabinet that he wants to use website for data gathering and targeting purposes.

    Can things get worse?

  136. Bob Mack says:


    Can Boris be trusted to put the DUP rigid terms ahead of a deal worth billions?

    Arlene Foster pointedly passed by the microphones set up outside Downing St tonight for her comments, without saying a word,as did Nigel Dodds

    I believe N Ireland which is the only roadblock will be Boris preferred solution.

  137. twathater says:

    In D Car Gordon Ross today has a very credible plan for the SG , hopefully they will take notice

  138. defo says:

    Tam the Bam.
    “Anyway……..this has been bothering me for a time now

    Did Alex sway way or another …re a Wings Party”

    mmm, or did he SAY something which motivated putting forwards the idea?

    We’ll never know !

  139. Doug says:

    @Bob Mack 8:57pm

    If you mean me [Dog?] you could be right. As usual we all have to wait and see.

  140. Iain mhor says:

    Doug @8:08pm

    The nature of the border would be up to N.I, so it bats that conundrum at their own feet. Well insofar as mutual deals are ever entirely up to a single partner anyway.
    The current protectorates broker their own deals with the UK.
    Boris & the EU admittedly are the agents of the powers (dare I say) devolved to them, how they administer that is their prroblem. And yes, if they can’t make Stormont work, the question is ‘how are they competent to govern a protectorate?’ Well direct rule may be applied first and “if you cannot find a governor – one shall be appointed for you” lol. But N.I’s problem of government is theirs, not the UK’s to solve anymore (unless it chooses)
    Not quite in the spirit of “allies not conquerors” but hey – politics.

  141. RM says:

    The Scottish MPs at Westminster are off for a few weeks now, they should set up talking shops all round Scotland give information, answer questions drum up business, you can’t speak to anyone anymore all done by computer for a certain age group anyway, but lots o folk like to yap and speak face to face try and reach everyone who’s not sure about being independent.

  142. laukat says:

    @Ian Mhor – full marks for creative thinking but I don’t think Bojo has the ability to make that happen within the current UK parliament nor do I see how the Unionists in NI would ever let it happen. The easiest part would be getting the EU to agree as its effectively a NI only backstop on steriods.

    I suspect Bojo will table a version of the May withdrawal deal with either the backtop removed or a with a NI only backstop only.

    May never tabled the NI only backstop in the UK parliament as she thought her government would collapse without DUP votes. Bojo no longer needs the DUP prior to October 31st as opposition parties have already made it clear they will not topple him until after then.

    So Bojo could table it without fear knowing that if parliament accept he probably wins the next election as the man that solved Brexit. Also if the UK parliament votes it down he can go to the public post 31st October and say ‘parliament won’t allow a no deal and they won’t allow a deal , you need to give me a mandate to do what I want’.

    It would appear to be win/win for Bojo who is really only interested in being the UK PM for as long as he can.

  143. Colin Alexander says:

    @Ian Mhor

    Do you mean Crown Dependency? eg The Channel Islands and Isle of Man?

    Northern Ireland is part of the Union following the Irish Acts of Union 1800.

    So N.Ireland is a full member of the Union.

    The Union is everything to the Loyalists of N.Ireland. They would NEVER accept being stripped of being full UK Union citizens by the UK, even if such a thing is possible.

    I fear to even try that would cause civil war.

  144. Tam the Bam. says:

    Doug 6-34pm

    I concur

  145. Bob Mack says:


    My predicate the insists you are dog. My apologies on its behalf.

  146. MorvenM says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says at 3.33 pm:

    “…but you can’t lead where people are unwilling to follow.”

    But that’s exactly what charismatic leaders do. They give courage to others. They don’t sit on their hands and wait for the polls to reach 60% by themselves. (By the way, anybody who demands 60% is neither a democrat nor an independence supporter.)

    We need a Joan of Arc (“I will not look back to see if anybody is following me”) – not a bureaucrat.

  147. Iain mhor says:

    I was just spitballing as the yanks say.
    @Dougs link 8:49pm suggests the UK is considering some other alternative for N.I. which apparently hasn’t been considered before in 3 years… *Cough
    But hey, what do I know? The relevant EU legislation applying to existing protectorates (dependencies) is very much an ad-hoc mess in the first place, therefore very much within the EU’s competency to amend (cobble together anew!) as it sees fit.

  148. Tam the Bam. says:

    Morven @ 3-33pm

    ….Emm I think the people are about to follow …IN SCOTLAND …62%…..II rest my case

  149. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    My money would be on Malta (Poland and Hungary to obvious) @Mac says at 12:41 pm

    “The dark money will already be instructing one or two of the smaller EU members to veto”

    Lots of Tory linked businessmen and politicians doing dodgy stuff out of Malta (including trading embargoed oil from Serbia during Yugoslav Civil War in the 1990s).

    Lord Ashcroft who describes himself as “firmly pro-Brexit”also suggested UK based businesses move to Malta if they need a UK hub.

  150. Effijy says:

    The First Minister’s Independence Petition awaits signature No 278,500 of 300,000 requested.

  151. Bob Mack says:

    Financial Times reporting ” Brussels senses shift in N Ireland Backstop”.

    Sorry can’t link.

  152. Iain mhor says:

    @laukat 9:15om

    True true, though as to the Unionists not allowing it to happen, well they’ll have a bother under direct rule stopping it happening. They’ve nothing to bargain with, what’s their option? They are no longer Kingmakers as you mentioned, but they’d have a chance to be their own Kings ‘Under the Crown’
    It’s Crown before the UK Parliament with them I thought.
    I mean, they can disagree and argue sure. But reject a chance to bask under Her Majesty’s aegis, without any petty interference from papists in the UK Parliament – and get to make your own rules up!- reject that? surely never, lol

  153. Tam the Bam. says:

    Thank u Start for allowing mmmy wooord

  154. Ken500 says:

    It is illegal to use UK Gov website for data gathering and targeting purposes. Against the data protection Act. Personal data use. Against personal freedom and rights to privacy. Jail. Gerrymandering punishable by jail. Against electoral rules of impartiality. Purdah? Depending when it is done. Court action? As regards protection of personal data.

  155. Ken500 says:

    Lord Ashcroft will find himself and colleagues a target of the EU introduced tax evading Act. Tax evaders, non Doms.

  156. Ahundredthidiot says:


    Meanwhile an angry idiot who no one likes, is a total loser nutjob, can’t contain his own racist anger and attacked and hurt someone, gets, wait for it (never killed anybody) 18 years and 9 months…..

    because he is, yep, you guessed…..a , ‘terrorist’

    Fuck me, our western societies are quite frankly, not worth saving.

    The Lunitics are definitely running this asylum.

  157. Ken500 says:

    A convention/assembly re Independence has already been established,

    There is no Scottish or English or UK constitution rules. It does not exist. There are only a muddle of historical political development over time. Regulated by Laws emitting from Parliaments.

    Scotland limited Devolution since 2000. Gained through Convention/assembly gathering of like minded people re Independence. Established under UK/EU/UN rights of self determination, self government and democracy.

  158. Col says:

    I’ve just seen the a post on Facebook saying the SNP support the murder of that journalist in Northern Ireland and support the IRA. It has the Glasgow City Council logo on it with bloody hand prints all over it. The poster comments no surrender of course. Is there anything that can be done about posts like that?

  159. ElGordo says:

    In fairness to the bbc, often maligned, but often ahead of the news

  160. Colin Alexander says:

    In The National – “Tommy Sheppard: This is the SNP’s policy on Brexit explained ”

    Here is my comment to his article:

    “if an elected Scottish parliament decides by majority vote to have that consultation with the people then Westminster should not attempt to veto or frustrate that ambition. That is why the coming election is so very important”.

    “if…Westminster should not attempt to veto or frustrate…”

    And here’s where the SNP’s indyref policy falls to bits. From what we know about the UK, the expectation should be that the UK will try to veto or frustrate an indyref where YES has a reasonable prospect of winning.

    The SNP couldn’t even get an answer from PM May to Ms Sturgeon’s letter regarding indyref.

    The best answer they then come out with is: We’ll seek another mandate and the UK will mysteriously cave in and agree, when the triple mandate and Scottish Parliament vote still wasn’t enough.

    This is the politics of SNP devolution servility, not Scottish sovereignty.

    The politics of wishful thinking. A belief in a noble and moral UK state that bears no relation to reality. It’s the indyref2 version of we’ll “share the Pound”.

    I guess that’s what happens when the SNP now see their role and reason for existence being the administering of the Union in Scotland and being the saviours of “Brexit” Britain.

  161. Famous15 says:

    I was reminded of the wartime crime of sowing ‘fear and despondency” while reading of the cover up of the bombing of Clydebank in 1941. Only London and Coventry were allowed to admit to being blitzed,possibly to show the heathens bombed cathedrals. I remember seeing Clydebank from a little tram in Kilbowie Road eight year’s later and it still looked worse than Nagasaki.

    Anyhow coming up to date I am reminded that the truth is often hidden and lies are spread to distort public opinion. But the tipping point is almost reached where even my granny knows that independence is unstoppable and so arguing about the number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin is ahem pointless. Eh Rev?

  162. Bill McDermott says:

    # Twathater

    Can you help me. The last Gordon Ross IndyCar video I have is 23 August. Is he using another site other than Facebook?

  163. call me dave says:

    Try you tube:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross

  164. Fireproofjim says:

    RM @9.39
    You urge Scottish MPs to set up meetings/talking shops during this Parliamentary suspension.
    Somebody is listening.
    I just got an email from Deidre Brockets MP, inviting me to a meeting a the Eric Liddell Centre in Edinburgh next Friday to discuss – “ Five years on from Inderef1 where lies the case for Scottish self government.?”
    I hope we get an answer.

  165. Fireproofjim says:

    That of course should be Deirdre Brock ( stupid auto correct)

  166. Robert Louis says:

    Effijy at 0946pm,

    And once they have 300,000 signatures, what then? Will Westminster suddenly decide to be reasonable? Will they say, we’ve denounced Scottish independence for years and told everybody who was listening that we will not grant a section 30 order, but now they have 300,0000 signatures, we’d better back down and give them a section 30.

    The time for petitions is long gone. This is a time for action to keep Scotland in the EU and get our independnece from abusive English rule.

    Their is a wide open goal for independence available right now, and the Scottish Government and SNP are determined not to make use of it.

  167. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@11.19pm

    Hey have you posted this before. It sounds familiar.

    Oh that’s right, same stuff yesterday and the day before and the day before that. And the day before that and right back to the Big Bang probably. Full marks for perseverance but still pretty boring.

    Best start working on your cv independence is coming and coming soon.

  168. Davie Oga says:

    The mixed messages cause people to be cynical and not trust politicians. In the past week or so we’ve had Ian Blackford saying that Scotland won’t be dragged out against will (again) and The First Minister giving interviews to Italian media saying that Scotland will rejoin the EU at some point in the future after Brexit.

    I imagine they both mean well but it’s shitty and demoralising. Very Labouresque in fact.

    That kind of insulting politicking and 2 1/2 years of begging for a section 30 or not as the case may be, is the cause of division not ordinary
    independence supporters questioning what’s happening.

    Let the English have their Brexit. Its their choice right or wrong.

  169. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    MorvenM @ 21:32,

    Yes, I’m sympathetic to that point. For everything there is a time and a season. That’s really what I was trying to get to. It was arguably sensible to let events themselves move those who were previously unwilling to listen into a different frame of mind where they become willing to listen. If you try to push people in a particular direction while they’re still unready, they just (metaphorically) dig their heels in and resist. Counterproductive, therefore, if premature.

    However, there is an argument for saying that if public opinion isn’t shifting as much as you might expect from events, it could be simply because you are not projecting your case forcefully enough. And since it’s clear that many ordinary folk are just crying out for a lead now, the first person who steps into this certainty vacuum and offers a plausible way forward with energy and conviction, will reap dividends.

    Like you, it seems, I believe that is exactly what we need right now. And I’m still hopeful of getting it.

  170. manandboy says:

    “Justin Welby prostrates himself in apology for British massacre at Amritsar over killing of 379 unarmed protesters in 1919.

    Hindus, Christians, Muslims and Sikhs were killed in April 1919 when they gathered in Amritsar, in Punjab, then part of British India. They were protesting peacefully after earlier riots over the arrest of pro-independence leaders.
    Amritsar, 100 years on, remains an atrocity Britain cannot be allowed to forget.

    Under the orders of Brig Gen Reginald Dyer, an Anglican, British troops opened fire. According to official figures, 379 people were killed and about 1,200 wounded, though other estimates suggested much higher casualties.

    Winston Churchill condemned the massacre in the House of Commons, saying it was “an extraordinary event, a monstrous event, an event which stands in singular and sinister isolation”.

    In 2013, David Cameron became the first serving prime minister to visit the site of the killings, bowing his head in honour of the victims. The episode was “deeply shameful” and should never be forgotten, he said, but he stopped short of apologising.
    This year Theresa May called the killings a “shameful scar” in British-Indian history but also stopped short of formally apologising.

    Writing on Facebook during a trip to Sri Lanka and India, Welby said visiting the memorial had aroused “a sense of profound shame at what happened in this place. It is one of a number of deep stains on British history.”
    He added: “Learning of what happened, I recognise the sins of my British colonial history, the ideology that too often

    subjugated and dehumanised other races and cultures …

    We have a great responsibility to not just lament this horrific massacre but most importantly to learn from it in a way that changes our actions.”

    Only the English Establishment thinks Britain is ‘Great’.

    It’s part of the world wide brainwashing conducted by the British indoctrination machine, now largely known as the BBC.

    The tradition of subjugation and dehumanising goes on under Boris Johnson and this generation of Tories.

  171. manandboy says:

    If Independence supporters really want to show that they are serious about Independence, then let them cancel their TV licence.

    Eleven percent have cancelled. 11%. A sobering thought. Eighty nine percent of Scotland’s population is hooked on tv.
    We just love our British Nationalist propaganda.

  172. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    manandboy @ 01:48,

    Yes, a thoroughly unsavoury episode, no doubt about it.

    But in bringing up this kind of thing about the “dastardly British Empire” in the context of independence, although it may play well with the convinced righteous, if you are hoping that this will somehow provide new converts, I fear you are wasting your time.

    What is unsettling people right now is something far more immediate: concern for their future and that of their nearest-and-dearest. They don’t have time or inclination to pay any attention to historical matters like this. For them it’s just distractional “noise”.

    In fact, it may even be counterproductive, because the uncommitted might conclude that anyone leading with a (for them) distractional issue like this is not to be taken seriously. Even worse, they may have lingering sympathy for “the way things were”, so such an issue may well jar with some of their remaining established preconceptions. You don’t win people over by starting off telling them that everything they believed in is plumb wrong! (Better understanding may follow in due course.)

    It’s just a matter of keeping the focus very much on what will work best with those who matter most right now: potential converts. Even if it’s always a gratifying temptation to “preach to the choir”.

  173. Willie says:

    And so they’ve shut down parliament and the non elected El Duce carries on.

    And does anyone do anything about it. No of course not. Like 1930s Germans we condition ourselves to the future to come.

    Arbech mak Frei, and we don’t abject.

    History repeats as the worms buckle to.

    All talk Rev, that’s all we do, unlike Johnson who has muzzled Parliament and sits in office.

  174. Willie says:

    And do, with no majority and no electoral mandate Boris Johnson has become Prime Minister, has appointed ministers into high office and has muzzled Parliament by suspending it,

    And are the people rioting in the street? Of course not. The sheep do not care.

    And sheep I’m afraid is the correct description because it’s truly only a minority who care enough to say or do anything about it.

    The cattle trucks to Buchenwald await – and for the most pary we don’t care . Just like 1930s Germany.

  175. dadsarmy says:

    “Judgment confirmed; 10am tomorrow” (i.e. today)

  176. Fergus Green says:

    Paul Kavanagh is at the top of his game right now:

  177. Ken500 says:

    The electorate and reps who do care can make their decision at the ballot box and by other means, court or other challenges. Restricted funding. Contain and restrain his actions. Not give support. He could be isolated and gone by October. He’s insolence, bravado, lies, dishonesty, bluff, inaccuracy and criminality diminished.

    Johnston could end up in court and jail for lawbreaking. He is just a total lying criminal. Always has been and always will be of no consequence. Just a conman like many of the rest of them. All bluff and bravado of no sustenance. Liars always get found out. There are more than enough people willing and able to stand up against him. He will be gone soon without a doubt.
    The next one for the poison chalice before they are all voted out.

  178. McBoxheid says:

    What happens if the tory ministers, including the PM, all resign from the government on the day before they are due back and no one is selected to replace them? When Westminster resumes, there would be no government. The tory party members would have to select a new party leader and that would take weeks for the election process, forcing a no deal exit.

  179. Ken500 says:

    Many people do not watch TV especially the young. The majority are on the internet and other interconnected platforms. The majority of TV programmes receive little viewer numbers as a % of the population. Many people are doing other things.

    The TV licence fee does not fund most TV. The £5Billion funding for the BBC comes from public money. ie taxpayers. It is totally excessive. Even if people do not pay a TV licence. The BBC gets £5Billion from government funding. The two are not related. Even not watching abd low viewer figures do not affect it. It is totally excessive. £5Billion for much nonsense.

    The Nine is not so bad as some of the other news programmes/outlets. Watched by accident.

  180. Ken500 says:

    Nothing will force a (no deal) Brexit. It just will not happen. Too catastrophic. Any politician who supports it will be gone. It will never happen. The economic, social and political consequences would be so dire. People would be rioting on the streets as the affects happened, it would soon be changed back to convivial, compatible membership by agreement.

  181. Davosa says:

    Just accidentally tuned into R4 and lLiar Robinson. More crap lazy journalism from him (or his feeble scriptwriters). Talking about British criminal justice and the most senior criminal court in Britain being the Court 1 at the Old Bailey. Have these thickoid duds never heard of Scots Law ? Just like Corbyn they are ignorant and oblivious little Englander imperialists.

  182. Mac says:



    There are a few commenters on here who argue like yourself that there is little relation between licence fee and the BBC funding. It is patently untrue. I stopped arguing about this a few months ago.

    Your 5billlion figure is correct, but 75% of that comes from the Licence Fees!! The Government gives very little, only the occasional grant.

    Licence fee revenues reached over £3.8 billion in 2018
    TV licence fee revenues grew from £3.51 billion in 2010/11 to £3.83 billion in 2017/18
    (in cash terms).

    Licence fee accounts for three-quarters of BBC funding in 2017/18
    Total BBC income in 2017/18 was £5.06 billion, 76% of which came from the licence
    fee revenues. The remaining 24% or £1.23 billion came from commercial and other
    activities (such as grants, royalties and rental income).

    95% of households own a TV in 2018
    In January 2018, around 27.0 million or 95% of all households in the UK owned a TV
    set. The number of households owning a TV increased by 4.7 times over the last 60
    years, compared to 1956 when only 5.7 million or 36% of all households had a TV.

    TV licence evasion rose from 5.2% in 2010/11 to 7.0% in 2017/18
    The BBC’s Licence Fee Unit estimates for evasion showed the highest level in Scotland
    (10%) and Northern Ireland (9%). The evasion rate in England and Wales was around
    6% in March 2016.

    The number of free over-75s licences increased, but share of income was similar
    In 2017/18 there were 4.5 million licences for over-75s, an increase of around 14%
    compared to 2004/05. During the period between 2010/11 and 2017/18 the cost of TV
    licences for over 75s accounted for around 16-17% of the total licence fee income.

  183. Tatu3 says:

    What is the average age of wingers? I get the impression many of us are not so young anymore! I am 60. Are there many under 40? Under 30? Under 20 even?
    Are they already, just naturally independence voters? Do they need persuading/converted to being independence supporters? If not how do we reach them? How do we get them more involved? How do we persuade them to read sites such and Wings, WGD etc

  184. Effijy says:

    Robert Louis

    Robert, I’d say the First Minister has set this petition to Gauge
    Public Support.

    300,000 signatures isn’t massive when you look at Scotland’s population.
    Now some months later, we haven’t reached 280,000?
    Does that suggest we have a majority champing at the bit?

    We need to hit the number before it gets used against us
    I.e no appetite for Independence.

    A ref 2 tomorrow and I think we would just miss out?

    With Boris the Hater of the Scots about to pull us out of the EU
    Against our will, I say we win our freedom.

    Give the Unionists enough rope and they can hang hang themselves

  185. Breeks says:

    Davie Oga says:
    11 September, 2019 at 1:29 am
    The mixed messages cause people to be cynical and not trust politicians. In the past week or so we’ve had Ian Blackford saying that Scotland won’t be dragged out against will (again) and The First Minister giving interviews to Italian media saying that Scotland will rejoin the EU at some point in the future after Brexit.

    I imagine they both mean well but it’s shitty and demoralising. Very Labouresque in fact….

    That, x 100.

    It isn’t just the straight contradiction, but the fact it reveals there is no great master strategy being kept secret to wrong foot the UK Establishment. How can there be when Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford take such categorically different stances?

    There may indeed be a Plan A, but it’s meaningless rhetoric when everybody has a fundamentally different grasp of what Plan A actually is. Voters are left with a random of lottery of who to trust, and they’re largely led by who they most want to believe, rather than any honest brokering of principle.

    I want to believe Ian Blackford, because his Plan A actually saves Scotland from Brexit by preventing the catastrophe BEFORE it happens, and it also capitalises on the mother of all Constitutional bourachs which will NEVER be repeated. There will never be another Brexit, and we will be utter fools, fools of the highest order to let this opportunity slip through our fingers.

    Scotland will not be Brexited against it’s will.

    We stand for that principle, or we crumble to dust.

  186. Mac says:


    The above data from the
    TV Licensing Statistics
    House of Commons Library
    Number CBP-8101, 10 January 2019

    No one in Scotland should be paying this Propaganda Machine

  187. Mac says:


    “It isn’t just the straight contradiction, but the fact it reveals there is no great master strategy being kept secret to wrong foot the UK Establishment. How can there be when Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford take such categorically different stances?”

    It does nothing of the sort. Neither is it contradiction nor does it suggest the absence of strategy. And it isn’t ‘different stances’.. I cringe when I read this pedantic analysis.

    In the current UK political arena, Strategy needs to be fluid and flexible. The ultimate goal is still Independence.

    I loved the HK demonstrators term, ‘Be like water’ … they drifted in and away again and back again, so the authorities couldn’t grip them.

  188. manandboy says:

    As the focus of Brexit attention switches to a NI only backstop, with the EU – UK border down the Irish Sea, the fundamental problem for the EU remains, as it does for Scotland, viz, does the British Prime Minister say what he means.

    In other words, is he acting in good faith.

    Manifestly, this is of little importance to his supporters, principally the Brexiters. But to the EU, this is a vital matter, as it is to Scotland, NI & Wales.

    Perfidious Albion remains a daily difficulty for the rest of the world in their dealings with Westminster. It is not realistic to think that the DNA of the English Establishment, the Ruling Class, is going to change anytime soon.

    If ever.

    It would be a comfort to know that the Scottish government is fully attuned to that abiding reality. It’s just that, from time to time, it does appear as if they forget.

    May Scotland discover a single-minded determination to be at the same time, both normal and Independent, again.

  189. manandboy says:

    FWIW. I NEVER watch TV. Haven’t done for years. One of the best things I’ve done in my entire life. My family agrees. We live the benefits every day.

  190. manandboy says:

    The object of political propaganda, as practised by the Westminster Establishment over centuries, is not just to influence and control what people think. It is actually to cripple their minds.

    By rejecting the opportunity to be independent in 2014, to the disbelief of the watching world, and the relief of the EU, Scotland revealed, that as a nation, it was, and remains, crippled.

    That’s what English propaganda does to you. It leaves you crippled. Until you find your backbone – like the other 62 colonies who stood up for themselves and declared – no more!

    C’mon Scotland. Get out of your wheelchair.

  191. Gary45% says:

    We stopped it in 2014,dont miss it one bit.
    When we go on holiday or visit a UK hotel we take a small portable DVD player and connect it to the TV in the room, the reason? the UK channels are mind numbing garbage, when you brake the Matrix control you quickly realise how crap the UK TV channels are.
    Mind you if any punters are visiting Spain, have a look at Ahora Caigo, its a crazy quiz show, a good laugh when you have had a wee drinky.

    There is no excuse for anyone in the Indy camp to be paying the Establishment Propaganda Tax. Simples.

  192. Breeks says:

    Mac says:
    11 September, 2019 at 8:01 am

    It does nothing of the sort. Neither is it contradiction nor does it suggest the absence of strategy…

    Kinda think it does Mac. If Ian Blackford is adamant Scotland won’t be taken out of Europe and Nicolas Sturgeon is saying we’re going to rejoin, we have the very definition of a contradiction, and two “big hitters” who ought to be on the same page but who clearly are not.

    This “doublespeak” isn’t boxing clever to keep your options open, it’s precisely the demoralising and disorganised rhetoric which Davies Oga was talking about which erodes our trust in all politicians.

  193. robertknight says:


    Some post-colonial African statesman, I forget who, was once asked what he thought the likelihood was of Scottish independence. His response was that Scotland hadn’t suffered enough to make it happen.

    Give it time…

  194. Lenny Hartley says:

    Robert Knight, wasnt that Winnie Ewing?

  195. Ken500 says:

    65Million population. No matter how many pay the licence Even if no one pays the licence. The BBC funding still comes from general taxation. Those who never watch the BBC still pay for it through taxation. So even if people do not watch BBCTV they pay for it through general taxation. So those that do not pay the licence or watch BBCTV, depending on their personal circumstances still pay for the BBC.

    Television is some people’s only affordable amusement. Not paying the licence and not watching TV is a personal choice but has not affect on funding of the BBC which still gets £5Billion of funding spent offset from sales worldwide of programmes produced, videos, internet access

    Other TV/programme funding comes indirectly from commercial activities. Advertising revenues. People are also funding that from commercial activities and purchases. Providing even more revenues with the interruption of programmes. People who never watch TV still pay for it from their commercial purchases.

    £5Billion is still a vast overspend for the productions.

    TV is a popular form of entertainment. Considering the take up rate. The statistics consider households. 95% of household but how many in the households watch it frequently. The viewership is much lower than 95% Many programmes have very lower viewers than 95% of the population or household, Many programmes only gain 2Million viewers. Even the most ‘popular’ 8 million viewers out of 65Million pop. People can be paying the TV licence and never be watching the BBC.

  196. Ken500 says:

    Poopy pants offensive, repeated boring irrelevant contributions. With a patently obvious alternative agenda. Glaringly seen through every post. Those two non replied e-mails certainly had a negative devastating effect. Self important, ignorance and arrogance. Get over it.

  197. Ken500 says:

    The Indy camp have to pay for it in any event, through taxation, depending on personal circumstance. It is a UK Gov decision on personal taxation.

  198. Ken500 says:

    Many in the Indy camp want to watch TV. No disgrace. A cheap form of entertainment for many. Informative. It is a personal choice. Not a diktat. Get rid of Sky is easy plenty of other alternatives.

  199. Ken500 says:

    Many people do not like petition of personal details. They would rather use the ballot box. A higher uptake. Sone people do not source petitions. They go undetected. Depending on their actions and levels engagement. Internet access etc.

  200. Footsoldier says:

    Looking at all this talk about should we go or not for indyref2, where is the campaign and message to bring the doubters over?

    If a GE happens in the near future, it will be too late to sell the message that should have started 2 years ago. Let us hope when the sales campaign starts, it includes some snappy billboards all over Scotland.

  201. Ottomanboi says:

    Historical fact politically corrected.
    From History Today.
    The executioners were in fact ‘Indian’ taking orders from a Brit.
    The very model of imperial manipulation. They might have turned their guns on Dyer, but didn’t.
    Indira Gandhi was later shot by two of her Sikh bodyguards.
    Plus ça change……orders is orders.
    Apology, a word hollowed out through overuse and attempts to manipulate history.

  202. manandboy says:

    If you choose to read this latest piece by George Monbiot, you might find yourself thinking, that as things stand in ‘neo-liberal-Austerity-screw the public UK’, you are just like one fish in a huge shoal of sardines numbering tens of millions, which is being stealthily corralled into a tight space by an alliance of predators, who see in you only an opportunity to gorge themselves till they can consume no more – at your expense and, ultimately, at the cost of your life.

    Or, you might not.

    But it is true, that only those fish who can actually see the predators, recognise the danger and feel the threat. While those fish in the middle of the shoal won’t get it – until they disappear down the throat of something big.
    Consumed – by Consumerism, Neoliberalism, Capitalism, British Nationalism, The Tories, Brexit-ism, Boris Johnson. All with a greed in their bellies which they must satisfy.

    Independence. The only way. Our only chance of escape.

  203. Bob Mack says:

    Scottish Court rules prerogative illegal

  204. manandboy says:

    Ya beauty!

    Parliament suspension ruled ‘unlawful’

  205. Old Pete says:

    Judges rule against the UK government, will Scots law gusump the Johnson government? Doubt it will.

  206. Fireproofjim says:

    Scottish High court declares the move to prorogue Parliament is illegal.

  207. haudonthenoo says:

    Appeal to Supreme Court now I assume ?

  208. Spikethedee says:

    It’s beginning to look like the “new” plan is the arrangement for an EU customs union with NI-only. I can’t find the old wings article, but that would basically mean Wales & England getting out of EU as they voted for in 2016, NI staying in, as they voted for in 2016 and Scotland getting… well shafted, basically.

  209. Bob Mack says:

    Whatever it does the ruling of the Scottish Court will highlight the difference of our legal rights as Scots.

    Will England overturn that? That is a plus for us.

    This will have the added benefit of turning a predominantly Brexit public in England to turn on its sponging neighbours.

    Good, in fact great result.

    However it pans out well done to Joanna,July et Al.

    Standing up for Scotland as we all do.

  210. manandboy says:

    The BBC are being slow to report on this morning’s Court Ruling. They are probably still waiting on instructions fro Dominic Cummings.

  211. manandboy says:

    The cat’s among the pigeons. Enjoy!

  212. Giving Goose says:

    Hopefully English public opinion will be so enraged that there will be calls to ditch the union.
    Get on forums, threads and encourage this thinking.

  213. Cubby says:

    Parliament Prorogation is unlawful

    No doubt there will be silly people saying Westminster is in England so Scots law does not apply.

  214. Breeks says:

    SNP MP’S should sit as a Parliament because Scots Law says the should.

    If English MP’S refuse to join them, then Westminster is formally separated and the Union is untenable.

  215. jfngw says:


    The comment regarding the licence fee is not whether it funds the BBC, it obviously does but not directly. The licence doesn’t even state that it does. It is a licence to watch live broadcasting, another misnomer as the majority of broadcasting is not live but just being played out from video server, so you pay to watch output from one video server but you don’t have to watching the same output from another, except the BBC servers.

    If it was stated as a direct funding of the BBC then I would presume anyone not watching could exclude themselves, otherwise it would then be a form of extortion.

    It is still taxation to fund what is effectively a government broadcasting service, as they decide the level of taxation to be levied for the service and how much the BBC will receive.

    The question is, would the BBC exist without the licence fee or would the taxation be raised by an alternative method to fund it.

  216. manandboy says:

    BTL comments on the BBC news Web page, is loaded with Unionist venom.

  217. Capella says:

    Hah – Scottish judges rule that prorogation is unlawful.
    BBC breaking news. Breaking’s the word.

  218. hackalumpoff says:

    See updated Nana’s links here:

  219. Breeks says:

    If Scottish MP’S do not sit in session when the Court of Session says they should, are they now breaking Scots Law and abiding by English/UK law?

    If not actually breaking the law, bowing to it’s supremacy?

  220. jfngw says:

    Hold, hold, hold! I see Pete Wishart still believes in tantric independence referendums.

  221. manandboy says:

    In a summary of their findings, the Court of Session judges said that the suspension of Parliament was motivated by a desire to “stymy Parliament”.

    They added: “The Court will accordingly make an Order declaring that the Prime Minister’s advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect.”

  222. Bob Mack says:


    Joanna states parliament should sit now. She and Jolyn Maugham know their stuff. Scots MPS have been legally authorised to sit by courts. Pending appeal makes no difference until decision of Supreme Court.

    This is something we can make hay with

  223. manandboy says:

    Would love to be a fly on the wall in 10 Downing Street right now. I would expect a taste of incandescence, expressed in a virtual fireworks eruption of multiple expletives!

  224. Breeks says:

    I hope so Bob Mack…

    How ironic if the Westminster Parliament is busted by Scottish MP’S sitting in and English MP’S walking out…

  225. Cubby says:


    My favourite post is:

    “Which Scottish judges think they can overrule an act by the Queen of England”

    A lot of angry people spitting feathers. It demonstrates the dire ignorance most of the UK population have about the UK.

  226. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 10.35
    Could be a double edged sword here though…..
    We’ve already had some Labour guy in Holyrood sayin that the Law to prevent no deal PROVED that Westminster actually works.
    I could see this being spun as Scotland successfully playing it’s part and succeeding within the Union too
    Sadly I think the thing that would be best for us is for the Supreme Court to overrule and win, especially if the Scottish Judges in it don’t agree.
    The worse thing is for Westminster to be recalled tomorrow and that judgment to be respected.

  227. HandandShrimp says:

    Well the Scottish court has set the leopard amongst the gammon. I think judging by the comments I have seen we should be given immediate independence.

    It is an ill wind etc….

  228. Cubby says:

    Giving Goose@10.28am

    Been doing that for years. In response to the subsidy junkie/ massive deficit/ Barnett formula crap I just politely suggest that the solution is for England to go for independence. Why not set up a proper Independence for England Party I would say. It has the added benefit of shutting them up about all this England subsidises Scotland crap. Their heads are so full of English superiority they couldn’t possible entertain the idea that Scotland subsidises England.

  229. manandboy says:

    “Lord Doherty said Mr Johnson had not broken the law by proroguing Parliament, and that it was for MPs and the electorate to judge the prime minister’s actions rather than the courts.

    But the three Inner House judges said they disagreed with Lord Doherty’s ruling because this particular prorogation had been a “tactic to frustrate Parliament”.

    They said: “This was an egregious case of a clear failure to comply with generally accepted standards of behaviour of public authorities.

    “It was to be inferred that the principal reasons for the prorogation were to prevent or impede Parliament holding the executive to account and legislating with regard to Brexit, and to allow the executive to pursue a policy of a no-deal Brexit without further Parliamentary interference.”

    Lord Doherty bottled it. The Judiciary – good staff are harder to find these days. Well done to the three judges. I guess it’s harder for the Establishment to lean on three judges sitting in concert.

  230. Robert Kerr says:

    Did Ms Cherry say that they are pre-empting T Bliers “Supreme Court” by going to the European Court?

    I half heard it on non-BBC radio.

  231. Spikethedee says:

    There are 46 non-tory Scottish MPs, enough for a quorum in the House of Commons. They can all sit, pass legislation as required and it would all be perfectly legal. (I presume none of Carlaw’s lapdogs would want to sit and risk upsetting their overlords???)

  232. Colin Alexander says:

    The FM has ruled out an “unofficial” indyref: an indyref without an s30.

    It’s reasonable to ask this question of the SNP:

    If UK Govts will not give consent for an s30, what will you do?

  233. Macart says:

    @ Capella

    It’s going to leave a mark for sure. 😉

  234. laukat says:

    I would put my 50p on this decision being overruled next week which would be interesting as we would be then establishing that the UK Supreme Court can overrule Scottish courts on a matter that is not under EU law.

    However if it stands does Liz have to fire Boris for giving her unlawful advice?

    Does the UK parliament have to go back to the commons without a Queens’s speech? In which case can Bojo table the May withdrawal deal again as it’s already been voted on within the current session?

    If this is deemed unlawful and Bojo doesn’t suffer any consequences does he then become more likely to disobey the law on asking for an extension?

    What’s the point of parliament reconvening when it has no new laws to discuss and its played all its cards on Brexit? How many pro-Bojo MP’s would obey the order to reconvene parliament?

    This is becoming like an episode of a bad soap opera. Nicola – we’re Scotland get us out of here!

  235. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Well, while we are on a roll, why isn’t the SNP or even the Scottish Government going to the Supreme Court to argue that the Westminster Government has broken the terms of the Act/Treaty of Union?

    We’ve got nothing to lose, so why not go the whole hog at this opportune time, when some fairly thick UK government ministers are up to their fat arses in alligators?

  236. manandboy says:

    If this case is heard in England’s Supreme Court, they will hear the same evidence. A different ruling by them, supporting Johnson, will undermine their credibility, such as it is.

    Bit by bit, brick by brick,Independence is being constructed.

  237. Colin Alexander says:

    It wasn’t the UK Govt that unlawfully prorogued Parliament, it was HM The Queen that made that decision.

  238. Bob Mack says:

    W@Colin Alexander,

    The Queen is officially acting on the advice of Privy Counsellors.

    The Queen in the UK cannot break the law. She has immunity.

  239. Breeks says:

    Liz g says:
    11 September, 2019 at 10:50 am

    Breeks @ 10.35
    Could be a double edged sword here though…..
    We’ve already had some Labour guy in Holyrood sayin that the Law to prevent no deal PROVED that Westminster actually works…

    True Liz, but Scottish MP’S should lay it on thick and have the UK Parliament dancing to Scotland’s tune… I think English MP’S will find that hard to swallow.

    I think it matters that a Scottish Parliament which sits apart from a UK Parliament is a thing expressly prohibited by the Treaties of Union, but it’s the UK Parliament unlawfully proroguing itself, so that might arguably be construed as a breach of the Treaty.

    I think, and I’m skating on thin ice, but I think we have a another constitutional open goal to test the Union, perhaps to breaking point, IF we choose to interpret it as such.

  240. manandboy says:

    “It wasn’t the UK Govt that unlawfully prorogued Parliament, it was HM The Queen that made that decision”

    That’s like saying ‘it wasn’t me who used the toilet, it was my willy’

  241. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@11.01am

    “The FM has ruled out an “unofficial” indyref: an indyref without a s30.”

    Want to provide your evidence/source backing up that statement?

  242. Bob Mack says:

    Parliament can officially sit without the Tories. The govt lawyers made no application today to have the prorogation continued in interim. Probably too rattled.

    Games on folks.

  243. dadsarmy says:

    First thought is and was, that the Inner House wanted to wait till the deed was done, so as to decide that it had been done unlawfully, so they put it off till today. Had they judged on Monday there would still have been time for BoJo to establish some other reason and therefore make a Monday interdict itself wrong.

    As it is, BoJo has been caught red-handed with the bloody weapon in his hands, and the whole thing caugt on CCTV.

  244. dadsarmy says:

    The second thing is that the BBC has been caught with its pants down and on fire, as the BBC ignored the appeal to the Inner House, but said the next step was the Supreme Court.

    They fucked up, and THAT is on record too. Yet again, by ignoring Scotland, the BBC shows iself to be an unfit fopr purpsoe purveyor of propaganda.

  245. Capella says:

    The Scottish judges declared the prorogation null and void. So our MPs can just return to he HoC and resume dismantling this ghastly Tory government.

    The doors will be opened by the most powerful people in any institution – the jannies.

    I see that, at this critical juncture, Tom Watson opens up the umpteenth anti-Corbyn front. This time it’s about …oh I forget… not doing what Corbyn proposes. The Blairites in the Labour Party may team up with the moderate Tories to form Party of the Middle of the Road. Hopefully to be mowed down by a Scottish juggernaut.

  246. Proud Cybernat says:

    So today’s Court of Session decision effectively means Scots MPs are legally entitled to re-enter UK Parliament. With no other rUK MPs in attendance they’ll have to vote in a Speaker (Pete Wishart?) and some tellers. Ian Blackford calls for a vote on issue of S30 Order to bind WM to accepting the outcome of IndyRef2.

    Ayes = 33 Noes = 20

    1 Abstention (the vote was too difficult for Kirstene Hair).

    Motion Carried by majority of 13.

    Scotland’s FM calls IndyRef2 for Thursday 7th November.

    I like the way I think sometimes.

  247. call me dave says:

    Jings! You go out for the messages and miss all the news.

    Must confess I raised an eyebrow and had to re-read the first blog post that mentioned the court decision. 🙂

    All good though no matter what transpires in the Sup Ct and maybe the Miller case darn Sarf will also surprise us all.

    Dust still to settle today but already WM telling everyone that Scot D. Cherry went to a Scots Court ‘because it was biased’. Really! 🙂

    Not a good look.

    Shurley it must be on ‘Your Call’ with Kaye tomorrow

  248. dadsarmy says:

    Third thing is, we don’t yet have the full ruling, that doesn’t get published till tomorrow on the website. I’ll be looking at that to see if there is any element at all of “Scots Law” like the Claim of Right, or is it all just Bozo trying to stymie Parliament, which is all UK Law, not just Scots Law.

    It would be brilliant if there was an element of Scots Law only, as that would drive a total clear line between Scotland and the rest of the UK; sadly I doubt it.

  249. Capella says:

    A Scottish juggernaut, festooned in Saltires, heading down the M25 en route for Paris with a cargo of langoustines from Argyll and Bute – I should have added.

  250. call me dave says:

    BBC presenter there struggled with ‘stymie’ had to ask the law pundit …what?

    Old golfers now long deid will know it’s meaning.

  251. dadsarmy says:

    Anyways, even if overturned in the UKSC next Tuesday, this is a totally brilliant thing to happen, and we really do need to exploit it these few days, drive in the wedges.

    “Scots Law is forcing the UK to honour the Rule of Law”.

    Just be careful we don’t show contempt of court at all!

  252. Phil says:

    BBC reports judges in Edinburgh have rulles the parliamentary suspension to be illegal.

  253. Bob Mack says:

    Social media is almost requiring a cement dome to keep in the toxic ramblings from Unionists all over England.

    Drive the wedge home wherever you can. Scots law is our law.

    These opportunities come few and far between. Perhaps some want to try and win them over,but personally I’m doing as much as I can to instill further fury.

    This could well be a defining moment.

  254. dadsarmy says:

    Mmmm, yum yum, keep it going.

    Downing Street claims Scottish Cherry Case judges are biased

    I like wedges 🙂

    With any luck the Tories will spit the Treaty and Acts of Union out with their kedgeree.

  255. Liz g says:

    If Joanna Cherry is right and the British Government are breaking the Law!!! ( which of course she is and they are our judges said so 🙂 )
    Could we crowd fund and she them for denying our lawful right to political representation???
    If we did it as the Yes Campaign then any money we won from the Crown would swell the coffers!!!
    Jist sayin…. 😉

  256. Liz g says:

    Sue them not she them…. Duh

  257. call me dave says:

    Get your Euros now all the UK stock market FTSE’s are soaring £ much stronger against everything. 🙁

  258. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Proud Cybernat ” 11.41am

    I like your thinking young man.

    Just a thought, if less than 50 Scots nobles could sign the Declaration of Arbroath, why cannot the SNP MSP’s sign a 21st century version and send it to the Court of Session, insisting the Act/Treaty of Union has been breached and calling for it to be scrapped?

    Win that case and we are home free. We then tell the EU, we are staying in, which they will surely accept.

    Boris’s and the Toerags in Westminster’s and Holyrood’s heids would burst. Win, win.

    Let’s do it.

  259. dadsarmy says:

    “We’re so awfully good to these ignorant Scots and look what the ungrateful ingrates do to us, stymie our sytem of what we laughingly call democracy. What can we do about these awful skirt-wearing porridge eaters?

    I know, give them their emergency Section 30 but they have to use it before the end of the year and we’ll blame them for the 3 month delay until 31st January. And we’ll campaign for a YES vote, away you go Jocks, Jock off.”

  260. Golfnut says:

    @ Proud cybernat
    Stymied as in snookerd.

  261. Bill McDermott says:

    I have just heard Dominic Grieve say that Johnson must resign for misleading the Queen.

    This is getting interesting. I agree that we should use this judgement to stress that the Treaty of Union is being abused and the Scottish Government should state its intention to re-sile the Treaty of Union if Scotland is taken out of the EU against its will.

  262. Capella says:

    It’s the UK Parliament, so a decision of a Scottish court is binding unless and until it is reversed on appeal.

    The Supreme Court has the power to reverse the Inner House’s decision, but it remains to be seen whether it will do so.

  263. Iain mhor says:

    Following the decision today, there are naturally some suggestions that Scots MP’s return to Westminster (presumably after the jannies let them in) and conduct business.
    Parliament is the MP’s who sit and conduct oarliamentary business – the building isn’t Parliament – they can sit wherever they like.
    The discerning will be thinking, surely that applies to the UK Parliament as well. Yes it does. All the palaver about being forced out, locked out, unable to sit, unable to conduct Parliamentary business, is so much bollox.
    Had the various cadres of opposition and rebels really wanted, they could have invoked a Parliament wherever they chose to. That they didn’t speaks volumes.

  264. Cubby says:


    Or, as was the case in golf, when your opponent played his shot or put and left his ball directly between your ball and hole thus stymying your next shot. Pity it was removed as part of the rules of golf.

  265. Patrick Roden says:

    Re Stuart Campbell says:

    It’s just a guess. But it makes sense.

    Starting to sound like a Scottish Journalist.

    Hope you don’t end up ‘flouncing off’ then coming back a few days later with an article about how horrid we have all been to you!

  266. ahundredthidiot says:

    Forget Trumps Wall

    We’re going to build Boris’ Bridge (from Ireland to ‘Britain’…..which of course, is completely nonsensical)

    But the bloody Europeans can pay for it anyway!!


  267. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Hope you don’t end up ‘flouncing off’ then coming back a few days later with an article about how horrid we have all been to you!”

    Pretty fucking tempting atm tbh.

  268. ahundredthidiot says:

    Who lied to the Queen?

    Rees-Mogg, Boris, all of them?……

  269. Colin Alexander says:

    “…The advice given by the Government to HM The Queen to prorogue Parliament from 9th September to 14th October was unlawful and therefore the prorogation itself is unlawful”.

  270. ahundredthidiot says:

    oh come on – who can take any Scottish Judge seriously after the nazi saluting dog owner conviction?


    Our legal system is almost as pathetic as New Zealands.

  271. wull says:

    The EU ought to be taking very serious mote of the Court of Session’s judgement, on what is a clear-cut constitutional issue. According to the EU’s own rules, the government of any nation attempting to exit the EU must do so in a manner that conforms strictly with whatever is required of that member state, by its own constitution.

    If Johnson does not recall parliament NOW, his government will be unconstitutional. And it will remain so until h does or, at least, until such time as the UK Supreme Court overturns the Court of Session’s ruling.

    The UK Supreme Court might do this next Tuesday, or a few days later, after it has heard the appeal evidence presented to it. Or, then again, it might never do it, upholding instead the Edinburgh Court’s ruling).

    Meantime – that is, between now and Tuesday, or until the Supreme Court makes its judgement – the EU will not be able to talk to Johnson or anyone representing his government UNLESS HE RECALLS PARLIAMENT. This is because the EU, by its own rules, cannot treat with an unlawful and unconstitutional (and therefore ‘pretendy’ / fake) ‘government’ of one of its member states.

    Not being lawful, or constitutionally valid, that so-called Johnson ‘government’ would not be the true government of that state – the UK – at all. So, while parliament remains supposedly prorogued and therefore does not sit, the EU has no one to negotiate with, even if such negotiations were taking place and it wants to.

    On the other hand, since the prorogation is currently invalid, it doesn’t need Johnson to re-open the parliament. Legally, it’s never been legitimately closed, and is therefore still in session. So I suppose, even if Johnson and his pals decide to stay away, it would be perfectly constitutional for those members who wish to do so to turn up, and simply get on with whatever business they wish to attend to, in whatever way they can. If Johnson doesn’t show, could it be that the Queen would (have to?) invite one of those present in the Chamber, to form a government instead of him, so that the business of valid and legitimate government could continue?

    The mind boggles … and mine certainly clouds over at this point …

    Actually, I think the Scottish government, or Scottish politicians in general, should have pointed out to the EU from the very beginning that it would be contrary to the Constitution of the UK if Scotland were dragged out of the EU against its will. On the grounds that the constitutional reality in Scotland is that the people are sovereign, and their will to remain in the EU was clearly stated in the 2016 referendum.

    England could leave, because the English constitution makes parliament sovereign in England, but not Scotland. Otherwise, if Scotland is forced out of the EU against its wishes, the UK Constitutions – the conditions and agreements which constitute the UK – are being unlawfully overlooked and overruled. maybe this has been said sufficiently in private to EU officials, which would explain Ian Blackford’s continual affirmation of the point. Statements by NS to the effect that Scotland will first exit the EU, and then re-enter it, might imply the same thing, indicating that the constitutional grounds for ensuring that Scotland will be given immediate entry after Brexit actually happens have already been privately accepted by the EU.

    I have no idea if that is the case – but I do hope so. It is a mystery to me why NS does not play the constitutional card as openly and adamantly as she might, when other SNP members like Cherry do. Perhaps – just perhaps – NS will play that card in all its fullness immediately Brexit happens. And maybe – just maybe – the positive EU response to Scotland’s request for re-entry, while still kept under wraps, is already in the bag.

    The constitutional situation within the UK – which in fact runs two constitutions simultaneously, one obtaining in Scotland and the other in England and the rest of the UK – demands nothing less. If the EU are properly informed and fully clued up on this – i.e. on the true nature of the so-called ‘British Constitution’ – their own rules oblige them to respect the will of the Scottish people, as manifested in the 62% vote to remain in the EU.

    I just wish that this had been said all along. And hope that the SNP have indeed convinced the EU of these realities, as they ought to have done. Which does not calm my fears that they might not …

    Maybe I am clutching at straws, but I hope not. Very soon we will surely see what has, and what has not, been done.

  272. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    ahundredthidiot @ 14:31,

    Once again you live up to your moniker.

    This is a brilliant day for Scotland. A great example to us all of living as if we were already independent.

  273. Gregory Beekman says:

    Oh dear, looks like my earlier comment never made it on to the site – were comments down for a few hours?

  274. Gregory Beekman says:

    Lol, my bad – I’m looking at the wrong article!

    Doh, it’s been a long day – time for my bed, I think…

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