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The gums of the tiger

Posted on August 23, 2020 by

The Sunday Times carries a quite surprising story today. (And that’s not just because the person in the picture isn’t actually Liz Lloyd at all.)

We’ll pause for but a brief moment to contemplate the assertion that this unelected, unaccountable civil servant might be “the second most powerful woman in the Scottish government” and then move on to the interesting bit.

The revelation is surprising because less than a week ago the Scottish Government (in the form of no less a personage than the Deputy First Minister) was still going to a considerable amount of trouble and effort to insist that Ms Lloyd – despite having had what appears a fairly central role in the entire Salmond affair from the beginning – SHOULDN’T appear before the inquiry.

We can only hope that her sudden willingness to give evidence isn’t connected to the already-growing impression that the committee is a toothless beast which, through a combination of its own self-censorship and the Scottish Government’s shameful lack of cooperation (after Nicola Sturgeon’s repeated promises – now revealed as barefaced lies – to “provide whatever material [the committee] will request”), will produce nothing other than a tame whitewash.

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    571 to “The gums of the tiger”

    1. Big Jock says:

      Brian Mr Singh is a taxi driver.

      He makes his money at night. For him the curfew was taking away his only income. So it was easier to accept the jail sentence. As you will be aware it’s a hard enough living being a taxi driver in the Covid situation.

      Probably zero money being made for some.

    2. Breeks says:

      holymacmoses says:
      25 August, 2020 at 10:52 pm.

      ….Nicola Sturgeon should leave because she’s fundamentally stupid.

      It’s funny you should say that holymacmoses, because when people talk about conspiracy, skullduggery and MI5 infiltration, when you apply the principle of Occams Razor, which more or less says that the most obvious explanation is probably the truth, I find myself asking the question whether of not Nicola Sturgeon isn’t an MI5 stooge, but simply has very poor judgement, struggles to think strategically, and lacks so much confidence in herself that she is a sitting duck for people who have the gift of the gab, (whether they be Wokists or spooks).

      I have no doubt Sturgeon was an able lieutenant and Second in Command for Alex Salmond, but I truly wonder whether she has found the roll of actual Leadership too much of a step up. The Independence game needs initiative and strategy that she struggles to find, so Independence falters on the back burner, and instead she throws herself wholeheartedly into lesser issues where much less strategy is required.

      It would account for five years of Scottish Independence being frozen like a rabbit in the headlights, and countless open goals and windows of opportunity squandered. I have often decried the abysmal strategy of “waiting until she knew the details of Brexit” which handed all the Brexit initiative to Theresa May and tied Scotland’s hands behind it’s back. Was that some orchestrated conspiracy or simply an ineptitude in strategic thinking? Occam’s razor has me thinking the latter.

      Nicola Sturgeon is out of her depth and swimming with sharks, and it takes all her attention just to keep treading water. There’s no plan on the horizon, there’s no initiative coming, there’s no strategic thinking. There’s only playing for time in the comfort and reassurance of trusted faces, spooks and wokes included, who will never put pressure upon her to do anything progressive about Independence.

      Unfortunately this paralysis in strategic thinking leads to denial and procrastination, putting off big decisions indefinitely, and burying her head in the sand rather than confront her shortcomings or inabilities. She won’t step down until something external requires her to.

      We want a Leader to bring down the mighty Palace of Westminster and throttle it to the extent we liberate the Nation of Scotland. Unfortunately we’ve given the job to a pair wee lassie who just wants a seat by the fire and to talk about the latest books she’s been reading.

    3. Breastplate says:

      Big Jock,
      I believe that the court was not punishing Mannie Singh the individual but throwing the book at an independence supporter.

      Mannie was quite right in drawing attention to the farce of the Scottish courtroom.

    4. Kenny J says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      25 August, 2020 at 11:24 pm

      Mannie Singh didn’t follow the rules, set by precedence at previous marches.

      Found guilty, he was offered 72 days curfew 6pm to 6am, which he rejected. That ‘punishment’ was replaced with 72 days in jail.

      Is he trying to be seen as a martyr?

      You think 72 days, 2 months, inside is a “just” punishment. Jeez. Set by precedence, who defined that. You.

    5. Effijy says:

      Mannie has become a martyr!

      The AUOB marches have always had a great spirit and
      never any bother to anyone.
      100,000 participating and no arrests.

      The OO can attack anyone trying to cross a road, disrupt
      Religious Mass, spit at Priests, sing sectarian songs and
      piss anywhere they like, without a word said.

      Did the Jarrow marchers get any permits or prison sentences?

      The trouble here is the fact that 100,000 suppressed Scots should
      always have right of way in their own country and to have fines imposed
      By a council mainly constructed by people supposedly independence supporters.

    6. CameronB Brodie says:

      Occam’s Razor privileges parsimony, and may not always be helpful. The simplest explanation may not be the most reliable, from an epistemic point of view.

      Systematics and Biodiversity 7 (4): 357–363 Issued 1 December 2009
      Parsimony, explanatory power,
      and dynamic homology testing

    7. CameronB Brodie says:

      The thing about privileging parsimony is, that it commits one to a particular understanding of reality’s nature.

      Ordinary Objects
      ?Parsimony and Ontological Commitment

    8. holymacmoses says:

      You’re much harsher than me Breeks – and she’s not the only stupid card in the pack.

      Imagine you worked for Heanz Beanz for 10 years and 5 years after you left, Heanz wrote to you and said we have implemented new employment policy which we’ve just developed and we have been approached by a young lady in the canning department who says that you felt her up every day, so we want to talk to you about this.
      What happens next?:-)

    9. Robert Graham says:

      A bit late but some idiots are probably still up anyway

      Mannie Singh another example made , I really hope anyone in Glasgow City Council hasn’t been pushing this one and turning a blind eye to real disruption caused by the OO I used to think it was just a jolly until I spoke to a few folk on the receiving end , it ain’t funny for a lot of people ,

      Just Another Saturday gives you a insight into the grubby side of it , The Orange Hall featured in the TV drama is situated just off Maryhill road and across from a local church where most of the Order have never set foot , enough said

      Just a coincidence Independence supporters singled out for special treatment , you better believe it , its a 24 / 7 operation across every single media outlet they don’t sleep , even on here .

    10. Robert Graham says:

      Retrospective rule changing are put in place for a reason especially when the change focuses on One Single Individual and doesn’t include all Employees, coincidence I don’t believe that for a second and anyone viewing it is either in on the vendetta Because that how it looks or is really stupid it can’t be both , it’s that blatantly obvious it can’t be explained away as just updated rules

    11. Mialuci says:

      Half of you people should start up you own political party cause the independence party is certainly not for you, or so it seems to a lot of us, its like fecking groundhog day on this site
      I have a good name for your new party, The moaning minnies
      Byeeeee I have had enough, life is far to short to waste it on this load of utter tripe day after day

    12. Mialuci says:

      Mialuci has left the building

    13. CameronB Brodie says:

      The theory of evolution was mentioned a while back and humanity’s biological boundaries are in question, so here’s a bit more on parsimony.

      Italian Journal of Zoology, 66:2, 159-169 (1999)
      Is parsimony a justified criterion in
      the assessment of possible phylogenetic

      The present status of the theoretical debate on the nature of evolutionary theory, that is on its position among the sciences, is one of considerable dissent on several critical issues. First and foremost: some hold that there are no ‘laws’ in evolutionary biology, while others maintain that, if there are no ‘laws’, then evolutionary studies are not ‘science’ in the strict meaning of the word (cpr., for instance Weygoldt, 1979).

      It is obvious that, if the advocates of the “no laws in evolution” are right, the necessary consequence for systematics is that either it forfeits its traditional aim to mirror as far as possible the genealogical relationships of
      organisms, and that will then be done according to merely conventional rules, or that, as there can not be absolute rules to follow when reconstructing phylogenies and trying to mirror them, as far as possible, in systematics, a certain amount of subjective screening and assessment of the available evidence will necessarily be involved, something that biologists striving for the amount of obyectivity possible in some other disciplines (chemistry, for instance), shun.

      It must, however be noted that this problem (which implies some problems of the general theory of science) appears to some extent a false one. Philosophers of science have, since Plato’s times, tried, to little avail, to solve the problem of objective truth. The ancient argument:

      “Judgement of evidence must be based on some sort of theoretical yardstick, but the yardstick itself is something that is continuously evolving to accomodate the new evidence, with unavoidable circularity” is still unresolved.

      In fairness, it must be granted that all the objectivistic attempts by Popper (1972 and after), Latakos (1970 and after) etc. have been, so far, effectively faulted by their critics….

      ….We are thus confronted by a curious paradox: traditional methods of systematics (often dubbed evolutionary systematics) do not pose any methodological premise contrasting with known facts of evolutionary biology, but their procedures and syntheses are rather akin to those of historians or, if you like, of the detectives in crime novels. They but rarely may use mathematical algorithms.

      Obviously biologists employing cladistics not only belong to different trends, sometimes bitterly opposed on some of their theoretical assumptions, but they also differ in the amount of consistency by which they implement their theories.

      Not a few, indeed, when faced with too obviously questionable results, with a range of possible cladograms being all technically correct, but widely at variance among themselves, or when the cladograms based on some sets of evidence are conflicting with those that may be deduced from a different and equally justifiable set, choose or weigh their decisions in the light of both experience and common sense, whereas as many others, for the sake of ‘objectivity’, stick to the rules whatever the results.

      The target of this paper is obviously mainly those colleagues who belong to this second brand and, moreover, only some, albeit critical, aspects of their techniques….

    14. twathater says:

      Mialuci please don’t go your incisive comments are invaluable to us lesser mortals you explain things so precisely , all us false indy supporters will be devastated , meanwhile back at the ranch of MOANING MINNIES life goes on

    15. twathater says:

      For all the people advocating giving NS and the SNP the benefit of the doubt and vote SNP 1 and other list party 2

      With NS refusal to even contemplate ditching the GRA and HCB as it is causing so much division , the NEC Cherry debacle , 12 to 14 MSP’s retiring or leaving , whilst the trans activists are vying for all these vacant seats , which will ENSURE the GRA and HCB WILL pass into legislation , the Alex Salmond stitch up , is this what you are willing to accept as a new start for SCOTLAND , and for people to insist that we can repeal these policies after indy ,just think if these trans activists get elected what are the chances that they would agree to that happening

    16. Scozzie says:

      On Manny Singh I don’t know much about the internal politics and some fall outs in AUOB….However,
      Just from a logistics point of view it would be incredibly hard for the event organisers to change the time of a march that was expected to attract 100,000 people just 10 days out from the date.
      Train tickets would have been booked, hiring of buses booked, difficulty in getting communications out to all the expected marchers etc etc.
      Manny was right to keep it at the original time. Seems to me the Glasgow Council were clearly trying to sabotage the event or sabotage the credibility of AUOB, or both.

      As for Manny’s jail sentence!!! – jeez Eric Joyce got a suspended sentence for having child porn on his phone. I know which one I think is the more despicable criminal act.

    17. Al-Stuart says:

      Oh the pleasure.

      It is absolute bliss being able to read through the many intelligent and interesting contributions on Wings Over Scotland without the literal-incontinent Shat Cat popping up like some form of whack-a-mole with Troller Tourette’s syndrome.

      Thank you Stuart for pulling the plug on that dreadful boorish waste of space.

      Though I think we need to send Craig Murray some headache tablets as the crap throwing Cat appears to have migrated to Craig’s blog. Fascinating to see how many nanoseconds it is taking Craig Murray’s regulars to suss out what a wretched pest the Feline Fubar turns out to be.

    18. Al-Stuart says:

      Oh Happy Days…

      Another trolling eejit has left the building.

      Mialuci cannae take the heat so he has rightly fucked off out of Stuart Campbell’s hot, hot, hot kitchen 🙂

      The problem with these people such as Mialuci is they are utterly lazy. They fail to read the dozens of articles on this website clearly proving the current narrow wokeist leadership clique are NEVER going to allow IndyRef2 and are a corrupt bunch of duplicitous self-interested liars.


      A two faced backstabber at the top. So what happened when New Labour got found out? The SNP benefitted with tens of thousand of New LABOUR refugees looking for a decent party to vote for.


      History is repeating itself. The SNP still has time to sort out the mess in which it finds itself.

      To clear out the Dreghorn tractor and her McWokeist infestation will require a LOT of hard work. Too much for the politically lazy Mialuci.

      If the SNP don’t sort themselves out then the NEWLABOUR lot who lent their votes to the SNP will simply walk away.

      Then the SNP will be back down to 9 MPs in London and a busted flush? If the Mialucis of this world cry “impossible” just look at what happened to the MASSIVE New LABOUR victory of 1997? That Cobyn eviscerated outfit that now has a character from the Central Casting clone politician factory, Sly Career Strimmer, will be unelectable for the next half life of plutonium?

      I cannae wait for the next chapter here. 20 new Scottish Independence List Party MSPs would demand IndyRef2 as a condition for confidence-and-supply.

      Johanna Cherry as New First Minister.

      Alex Salmond as pro team Deputy and after IndyRef2 and Scottish Independence we may chose to vote for Alex Salmond as the first PRESIDENT of Scotland.

    19. Willie says:

      The jailing of Manni Singh. The attempt to jail Alex Salmond. The possible jailing of Craig Murray and ditto Mark Hirst.

      These are all the actions of a hostile state that will use force to stifle democratic expression. No AUOB or Independence campaigner should now be under no illusion that they are not at risk.

      That the hostility of the state is being aided and abetted by a clique that has taken over the SNP the parallels with the 1969 Northern Ireland Civil Rights campaigners could not be more similar. Hostile state force will be used. Manni Singh is one example. Salmond, Murray and Hirst other examples. Police raids on bloggers homes other examples again.

      So let us be clear. Sturgeon and the hostile state are sending a message to us all that political expression and dissent will be suppressed by physical force.

    20. MaggieC says:

      Here’s the video link to to yesterday’s committee session ,

      The official transcript report to that meeting has not been published yet and it should have been published by 6.00 pm yesterday . As soon as I see it’s published I’ll post a link to it .

    21. Oneliner says:



      Now you can concentrate on forming lots more companies to save the economy.

    22. Breeks says:

      Reading this on Craig Murray’s blog, ” August 25, 2020 at 14:29
      As per the first letter above, Alex’ evidence is in the hands of his solicitors and they are not allowed to show it to anybody.”

      The evidence held by Mr Salmond’s solicitors can, according Craig and his own solicitors, materially weaken and undermine the case against him, and materially strengthen his defence.

      How extraordinary and troubling is it that the COPFS can deny Craig Murray’s defence team permission to enter this evidence?

      Can you imagine being in possession of evidence to clear your name and the Court won’t hear it? I know Local Authorities will pull that stunt and get away with it all the time, but you would hope and expect a Court of Law to be more rigorous and dutiful. Though having said that, a Court’s willingness to rubber stamp warrants against individuals on the flimsiest excuse presented by the Council is less than encouraging. They are meant to be Courts of Law, not Courts of Expediency.

      This resonates with what Alex Neil was saying. The mere fact an ex Scottish First Minister believes there was a conspiracy against him ought to be enough justification for the fullest public enquiry and rooting out of the truth. Why didn’t it happen? Why aren’t the conspirators now on trial for attempting to pervert the course of justice?

      It “appears” the Law is Scotland is being abused to asymmetrically truncate and injure the pro Independence movement and noted individuals in the same way the Unionists are trying to abuse due democratic process to frustrate a referendum on Independence by preventing it from happening rather than winning the argument.

      Who is responsible for these decisions which frustrate the fullest investigation on the facts and evidence, and go further still with the extraordinary protection and anonymity of the conspirators, who’s conspiracy was undone in a court of law? Their actions could have jailed Alex Salmond for the rest of his life, yet their conspiracy is swept under the carpet and they don’t even lose their jobs or suffer any consequence for their smears and false conspiracy???

      Lady Justice is typically symbolised wearing a blindfold to signify her impartiality and neutrality as she weighs the evidence in her set of balances, and readies herself to deliver justice with her sword.

      It seems Lady Justice in Scotland might be taking a peak beneath her blindfold in addressing herself to cases brought against supporters of Scottish Independence. Bad enough we have Unionists trying to rig Scotland’s right to hold a referendum without having Scottish justice rigged to disadvantage those of us who believe in Independence.

      Maybe an Independent Scotland needs to brace itself and be ready to tear down all that we know and be ready to rebuild Scottish society in our Independent Nation with this Unionist impurities expunged, and Scotland rebooted from first principles.

    23. Contrary says:

      Breeks, when I apply Occam’s razor I don’t get stupidity or MI5 stooge,,, I think it’s reasonable to assume that we don’t know her motivation for anything, she is an excellent actor and can play whatever part she likes – that’s why she’s so popular, it’s always the public face we get to see. Her behaviour would be explained by what her priorities might be – say it’s her career, gaining power, and the opportunity to execute her grand plan of a social experiment (with us as the victims)?

      If those were her priorities, then all that has happened fits in – she pretended a more socialist caring persona to gain power and influence – she needs to have independence on the back-burner because that would interrupt the power she would need for the social experiment – she’ll happily broker deals with the security services and others to keep that power and influence, etc etc.

      I don’t think it’s about intelligence, it’s about priorities and personality – we’d also have to assume a lack of conscience, maybe even sociopathic personality. She may well be easily led, but probably only in the direction she wants to go – we aren’t talking about someone with a normal social conscience here. And she could easily want independence ‘with all her heart’, reading between the lines there is just the caveat of ‘only not while I’m in power’.

      Who wants her in charge of negotiating freedom from the English state?? FFS she’d likely give away half the North Sea and just hand over half the land so they could keep their nuclear weapons on it, then give them preferential rates on their hunting shooting fishing lands so they could kill off our natural diversity, etc etc. No, I want someone with a backbone and someone that actually supports Scotland to be negotiating the split, and someone that at least has a half-baked plan.

      We don’t know any of this of course, because she won’t tell us anything, but these suppositions are just as likely, or more so because it’s in keeping with evidence, than those supporters that keep telling us ‘but she means it this time really and waiting is a strategy’.

      I agree with Twathater above, why vote for the SNP at all, when the risk is so great you’ll be voting for a monster in sheeps clothing. The SNP is actively working against independence now, any support of them is not ‘for’ independence. Everyone will make their choices, but they aren’t ‘the’ Independence Party in my mind, and their toxic neoliberal policies are really not my thing. There are still too many people denying reality and so I doubt there will be any major change in the SNP before the vote next year,,,, maybe but I’m not relying on it. Im not interested in propping up a toxic regime, so I’ll put any money and effort into anything else that’ll push us towards independence, the politicians can take care of themselves.

    24. Contrary says:

      My last post was to Breeks at 11.46pm last night! I haven’t read the one above yet…

    25. Achnababan says:

      I agree with you Breeks.

      One has to wonder why the SNP after more than 10 years in charge are still appointing British Unionists to top jobs in the government and to assorted quangoes such as SNH.

      Just look at the Boards of charities, government Departments in Scotland – they are all dominated by the same sort of British Unionists that the Tories or Labour would have appointed.

      Why are all our institutions, including the police and justice system still so British? If a political party was truly serious about Scottish independence they should be looking to transform our institutions into authentic Scottish ones – shouldn’t they?

      It is no coincidence that Scottish institutions lack radicalism… no one wants to rock the boat (& the gravy train to the House of Lords).

    26. Contrary says:

      Breeks at 7.35 am

      I’m really quite disturbed by seeing how our justice system is so corrupt and politicised – I’ve avoided any arms of the law from general inherited paranoia to keep below the radar, so have no personal experience of it – except to know it isn’t there for our benefit. The case against Craig Murray appears to be that he could potentially commit contempt, not even that he’s done so!

      I would say you wouldn’t be tearing down that institution easily though – things like the BBC yes easily removed, most other institutions need a weeding out – but I think it’ll be a long time cleaning up the justice system. I’ve wondered for years why Police Scotland hasn’t been cleared out and rearranged to stop corruption – how many heid yins have we gone through now – but, of course, that’s explained by those in charge of the Scottish government wanting to prop up the old regime. Sigh.

      But yes, in principle, there will need to be something done about the legal system – if only we had leadership with backbone and integrity to do it, once they’d got us independence of course. We might be struggling for support from any of these institutions if we plan to immediately destroy them when we reach our goal though!!

    27. Robert Graham says:

      a lot o/t

      Always have a laugh at some of the demented comments of Cochrane in the Telegraph , a unionist who really should seek medical attention , he must wake up in the morning with a rabbid get the SNP attitude , he really digs down to the bottom of the barrel if he has to feature a photo of a shop window with a small A4 message
      “Unionism will be the death of us” as content on his comment page
      Duck me thats front page news if ever i saw it a veritable first on every TV news channel crivens help ma bob

    28. McDuff says:

      What continually staggers me is that so many of those who seek independence actually believe she is doing a great job and that indy is just around the corner.
      I can’t stand her, she is as hard as nails and has betrayed the cause.

    29. Bob Mack says:

      The Rev had his house raided and computers taken away.

      Manny Singh imprisoned

      Craig Murray charged for writing what journalists wrote with imphnity. No defence allowed

      Stephen Hirst charged for the same as Craig.

      Alex Salmond almost jailed for life.

      No journalists charged despite clear identification of accusers.

      No women charged with perjury.

      The inquiry into the facts that caused some of the above neutered .

      This is the Scotland we all hoped to see? I think not.

    30. Socrates MacSporran says:

      McDuff @ 8.31am

      As the head of a devolved government, whose parameters as to how they run the economy of their colonial state, she is doing a good job, and in the process gaining additional support for her party.

      However, as the Head of that Party, whose whole reason d’etre is to win full Independence, then she is doing very badly indeed.

      How typically Scottish to be led by someone that compromised. If a nation gets the leaders it deserves, then Scotland is in a bad way.

      But, the saving grace is, we are not as badly-led, or in as bad a state as our next-door neighbour.

    31. Effijy says:

      From above I agree there seems to be so many suspect
      appointments in and around the SNP government.

      I read that Liz Lloyd had a long relationship with
      Ed Milliband the firmer Labour leader and attended
      The Tory breading ground of Cambridge University.

      Leslie Evan from Ulster home of the fanatical Tory supporters
      and Catholic haters the DUP.

      Another high ranking female Civil Servant at yesterday’s hearing was English.

      I wouldn’t expect any of these people to have Scottish Independence at heart
      Yet there they are in curious numbers?

    32. Robert Graham says:

      Being competent and being good at the administration of the Empires northern colony all very nice , its not following the Plan , the Plan being get us all out of this Scabby Union its not hard to grasp , maybe some in the management of the SNP haven’t quite got the message , as has been quoted our MPs are not sent to England’s Parliament to settle in BUT TO SETTLE UP ,you listening Pete ? .
      Every internal problem that has surfaced for the SNP recently is entirely self inflicted , Alex and the vendetta against him ,reluctance to follow the plan and thats independence,Stupid legalisation that pisses off everybody, Squabbling amongst independence supporters because of poor and distant leadership,abandoning any political push towards again following the Plan , the recent rise in support looks like it is at the expense of the support of the ones who actually made sure most of these politicians are in a job right now ,
      The SNP can and will be replaced if this shit continues

    33. Papko says:


      “But, the saving grace is, we are not as badly-led, or in as bad a state as our next-door neighbor.”

      That’s all that matters at the end of the day.

      Should next years mandate go the same way as every other, there is no need for despair as there are many green initiatives to get involved with,
      Climate Change is more important than Independence and the proposed bottle refund scheme looks promising.

    34. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland urgently needs an audacious young Alexander who while others dither and procrastinate in their attempt to unravel the psycho-legalistic knot at the heart of national politics with one stroke simply cuts through it, and scorns the cries of unfair, not allowed, seize that man coming from the pompous old guard.

    35. Effijy says:

      Prime Minister Boris Johnson says today “Our expert advice is that we do not require school children to wear masks at school” when asked why Scotland are doing it he said” you had better ask them that question but our expert advice is that it’s not required”
      24hours later headlines

      Face masks in schools: Boris Johnson performs U-turn on advice

      The government announces the policy shift for England after Scottish pupils were told to wear face coverings in corridors.

      Strange just how many Tory Ministers, their Experts and Scientists turn out to be complete Plonkers
      the day after they give out Covid guidance.

    36. Big Jock says:

      The face masks was from WHO advice.

      Clearly Boris only listens to Cummings , as he knows better.

    37. holymacmoses says:

      Ghandi showed future nations the road to Independence. People power is the prerequisite of a successful independence ‘coup’. Politics is a vehicle, and the chosen one for most nations.
      I think the Salmond trial came about through greed, self-interest and the chattering classes. Ironically, it’s beginning more and more to look as if the initial impulse against Mr Salmond was spawned out of sheer intellectual stupidity and ignorance. The group involved had no choice but to take Mr Salmond to court in order to save their careers and their pockets. Having lost, they will continue to lie and use and abuse any and all authorities to their own ends while they have the power to so do. I don’t think there’s been much forward thinking involved in this or in the AUOB affair, basically because I don’t believe that ideas worked through on the first principle of greed and deluded self-interest hold much water as intellectual thought in the final analysis. Mr Salmond needs to bide his time until enough people recognise what’s going on.
      I do believe that the Craig Murray involvement is different and people much further afield are involved in trying to disarm his credibility. ‘They’ve’ been doing it for years but Mr Murray is intellectually superior to the vast majority of us wee mortals and he has the added strength of a moral backbone second to none, and thus the skirmishes go on and on. It must be exhausting for a man who has a firm grasp on the idea of objective truth and the will to seek it out.
      Others will of course think differently to me and opinions are like arse-holes; we all have them and we should all obliged to use them regularly.

    38. Craig Murray says:

      actually Manni was following the exact pecedent of the previous year, which was a big success, including the start time.

      It was the SNP group on Glasgow City Council spurred by Mhairi Hunter and Rhiannon Spears who with ten days to go moved the strat time forward to 11am specifically to reduce the number of people who could attend.

      I really am very very worried about the number of SNP people who think it’s OK to lock people up for peaceful protest.

      My much missed friend Gordon Wilson used to run Radio Free Scotland, an pirate radio station, and told hilarious stories about moving the equipment around Edinburgh to escape the detection vans.

      Do those upholding Manni’s jail sentence think Gordon Wilson should have gone to jail too? Serious question.

    39. Effijy says:

      In England there are many thousands of Secondary School
      Pupils who are aged 18.

      It seems they are to wear face masks now.
      Some teachers will be as young as 22 years of age
      but they don’t need face masks?

      What physiological change happens to people during those 4 years?

      Luckily enough I’m neither a Tory or Scientific Expert
      But I think both have fully developed immune systems, lungs and hearts?

    40. Big Jock says:

      Manni was jailed because certain people wanted to disrupt the demo or reduce the numbers.

      That we have an SNP council doing this beggars belief! How in Gods name ha it come to this. The message from the SNP is not to encourage demos, marches or even any mention of when indy ref 2 should be.

      I see that Sturgeon is not now giving evidence in the Salmond inquiry until October! However I think she is damaged goods. Too much has been revealed already. Can’t see her surviving this!

    41. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Breastplate at 11:32 pm.

      You typed,
      Are you saying he deserves to be jailed for 72 days?””

      I never typed that. I offered no opinion on the sentence.

      Hi Big Jock at 11:45 pm.

      You typed,
      “Brian Mr Singh is a taxi driver.
      He makes his money at night. For him the curfew was taking away his only income. So it was easier to accept the jail sentence.”

      Fair point.

      Hi Kenny J at 12:12 am.

      You typed,
      “You think 72 days, 2 months, inside is a “just” punishment. Jeez. Set by precedence, who defined that. You.”

      Nowhere did I suggest that the punishment was “just”.
      The reference to “precedence” was in respect of almost all of the previous AUOB, Hope Over Fear, Forward As One, etc, marches and rallies.

      I merely summarised the facts.
      “AN indyref march organiser who defied Glasgow City Council safety concerns and refused to change the start time of the event was today jailed for 72 days.

      Mandeep Singh, 41, of All Under One Banner, also failed to apply to have streets closed during the event. This had to be organised by Police Scotland.
      He was told on several occasions that starting the march from Kelvingrove Park to Glasgow Green last May at 1.30pm would cause congestion in the city centre.

      Council officials ordered the event to start at 11am, but Singh started the rally at 1.30pm to accommodate marchers travelling from all over Scotland. “

      Above quote from:-

      The only non-factual content of my 25 August, 2020 at 11:24 pm comment was,

      “Is he trying to be seen as a martyr?”

      Hi Craig Murray at 9:35 am.

      You typed,
      “actually Manni was following the exact pecedent of the previous year, which was a big success, including the start time.

      It was the SNP group on Glasgow City Council spurred by Mhairi Hunter and Rhiannon Spears who with ten days to go moved the strat time forward to 11am specifically to reduce the number of people who could attend.”

      A good point. So Manni stood firm and was punished for it. What about not applying for the street closure order?

    42. Big Jock says:

      One other important point in the Manni jail sentence.

      What about the countless sectarian Orange Marches that are permitted. They have one goal and that is to demonstrate hatred and bigotry. Sure they can dress it up as tradition blah blah. However everyone and their dug knows what the Orange order stand for.

      Their followers are scum. They attack and intimidate innocent people. They bring shame to Scotland. I would lock up every one of their marchers singing anti catholic, anti Scottish songs.

      But the council seem to be happy to let this scum on our streets , and then lock up one man for turning up at the wrong time!

    43. holymacmoses says:

      From Craig Murray
      ‘Do those upholding Manni’s jail sentence think Gordon Wilson should have gone to jail too? Serious question.’

      There are some questions I can take seriously but not solemnly Mr Murray and this is one of them. So I will suggest that Ms Spears will promulgate a new law which is backdated a la the ‘Saving of Souls’ policy of the Latter Days.
      This law will be designed to enable an awakening of any and all offences embedded in the past if Ms Spears deems it appropriate
      or any other wokelings need to call on it for assistance.

      Thus any free Scottish spirit , dead or alive, can be captured, imprisoned and/or re-interred as adjudged by Lord Braxfield in the Court at Jedburgh.

    44. crazycat says:


      Presumably applying for street closures would confirm he was planning to ignore the council’s time changes, giving them scope for pre-emptive action.

    45. Polly says:

      @ Cath

      ‘So it’s quite possible Nicola was duped into setting up something sold to her on the premises it was ‘clearing up the toxic male culture’ and must include past ministers because of that person, probably among others.’

      Since I somewhat agree with Breeks’ estimate of Sturgeon (either full on unionist worker now or strategically stupid) then you might be right that that was all the prompt she needed. I remember Monica Lennon and others like Anwar, talk of the open secret of abusive behaviour in Holyrood. And in the inquiry evidence they (Hynd?) talked of difficulty of implementing policy retrospectively since some ministers were from other parties.

      However, considering only Salmond was caught up in it, either Sturgeon was hoodwinked to sign off on it (proving the strategically stupid bit) or as some say she was always out to get just the one target and used that as excuse. Either way it means she’s not the right person to lead the party forward. I agree with the now departed Mialuci above that Sturgeon focuses on and tries to latch on to things she think will look good and get folk onside for independence, and if that should be correct then it points more to her being stupid. Encouraging reading, which I greatly admired in her at first, but which now feels put on, just like the rest of her causes, but if her encouraging reading has worked then it may be the one, or only, policy she has so actively pushed which has done some good.

    46. Achnababan says:

      The National reports that there are 3 candidates for election for the Scottish Parliament: 2 men and 1 woman. The woman is a professional carer and obvious wokester. The National splashes the photo of one of the candidates across the story’s headline and has no image at all for the other 2 candidates. Guess whose photo?

      Its so obvious now – thanks to the Rev Campbell &Co

    47. Achnababan says:

      sorry I feel the need to blurt this out but I am a bit slow on uptake sometimes but it seems to me the Alphabet sisters have check mate… they failed in the legal challenge, they failed in the rape trial…. but as it now obvious the rape trial itself now prevents the evidence that I am sure would damm them to hell will never see the light of day!

      I have a question that someone might be able to answer:

      At the hearing yesterday the Head of People said that they went against their own policy and allowed the ‘victims’ (aka conspirators) to meet to discuss their complaints. She said this was because Police Scotland suggested that victims should be allowed to meet up to give them strength in their distress (and fix their stories).

      Dates are critical here so my question is… Did the 3 ‘victims’ meet before the case became a criminal enquiry and if so does this not suggest they were conspiring and that conspiracy also involved the Head of People?

    48. Craig Murray says:

      I don’t know the answer on applying for street closure. But the streets were closed by the police, happily, and I was actually chatting with Manni and the head of the police operation together on the day. Those who think people should be jailed for some form-filling point really need to look at themselves.

      Presumably you think everyone on extinction rebellion demos, which ask for no permission, and fill no forms, should go to jail?

    49. Polly says:

      Forgot to say I wish all good luck in the world to Craig Murray and to Mark too when the time comes. Both actions by the state are disreputable considering the newspapers, the Wark programme and even the committee questions yesterday, allowed identification of some letters of the alphabet. Let’s hope sense prevails amongst the justiciary.

      As for Mr Singh’s gaol term I agree it far outweighs anything he has done and is very heavy handed. However I also agree with Beaker and BDTT that he did help bring it on himself by some of his actions and he shouldn’t be considered a martyr. I don’t believe his behaviour or treatment is akin to what happened with Mr Murray so I don’t have the same sympathy. I also remember many folk were unhappy he had seemed to lie to them about getting full permission for that Glasgow walk and a lot felt betrayed by him because of that and were glad when AUOB were under new direction. Newspapers of course have the AUOB connection highlighted, bringing disrepute on that which is unwelcome.

    50. Cath says:

      focuses on and tries to latch on to things she think will look good and get folk onside for independence, and if that should be correct then it points more to her being stupid.

      And easily manipulated by anyone who’s done basic psychology.

    51. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi crazycat at 10:30 am.

      You typed,
      “Presumably applying for street closures would confirm he was planning to ignore the council’s time changes, giving them scope for pre-emptive action.”

      You could be right there.
      Onnyhoo, it would appear that the police applied a modicum of common sense to the situation, unlike the council.

    52. kapelmeister says:

      If Manni Singh had agreed to the 11a.m. start time, the march would have been by far the smallest big city AUOB event. And Manni would have received much criticism, and would even have been called a unionist stooge by some.

      Instead, he stood his ground against attempts to limit the success of the march. Heroic.

    53. Big Jock says:

      Manni dug his heels in on a point of principle.

      City council were at it!

      He did the same after the verdict.

      It’s good that there are still some principled people out there. We could do with more SNP people like that.

    54. Big Jock says:

      Also remember the poor guy is doing time. That is no barrel of laughs , no matter how trivial the conviction is.

      I once got locked up over the weekend for a false accusation of breach of the peace. I was actually looking after my mate who the police decided to arrest for brandishing a can of Irn Bru. He was pissed , but got in the way of a police van on a pedestrianised street. They had no lights on, and apparently because he never moved quickly enough that warranted arrest.

      I protested and was done for resisting arrest as well as breach!

      Anyway the point of the story is. I spent 3 days in a police cell at the Sheriff court with all sorts of scary people. I could have pleaded guilty and been out the same day. I told them to shove it and saw them in court.

      My lawyer tore them a new set of trousers. Case fell apart. The police made it all up!

      But I can tell you a police cell, is a place I never want to see again.

    55. cirsium says:

      Good posts, Breeks (25 aug 11.46) and contrary (26 Aug 8.01)

      their toxic neoliberal policies are really not my thing. (contrary, 8.01)

      they’re not mine either.

    56. David says:

      no comment should be made until this is over

    57. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Also remember the poor guy is doing time. That is no barrel of laughs , no matter how trivial the conviction is.”

      One day in a cell was plenty for me, but let’s remember that he’s CHOSEN to be in jail. He could have had a curfew order for the same period, slept in his own bed and gone whenever he wanted all day.

    58. Big Jock says:

      True Stu.

      I suppose he made the choice, but he might have a very personal reason for doing so.

    59. holymacmoses says:

      I am astonished at the speed and ‘efficiency’ displayed by Mr Hynd in completing the task assigned to him by Ms Sturgeon. It appears that all the meetings, consultations with legal eagles, redrafting after discussions etc. etc. undertaken by him resulted in a final draft ready for consumption in 43 days
      Listening to him speak and watching his overall performance I would judge him to be a perfect fit for the part of the tortoise in a production of the famous fable: appearances can be so deceptive OR he’s a phenomenal actor.

    60. twathater says:

      Having had the runaround for four long years by GCC and the DELIBERATE obstructions they placed in my way when trying to organise charity boot sales on behalf of Glasgow sick children’s hospital I can completely understand Manny Singhs frustration and DETERMINATION to ensure the maximum attendence at the walks

      No one knows the negotiations and concessions that took place in organising this MASSIVE operation which will have been immense , and for cooncillors to suddenly (3weeks) DEMAND the timing to be altered so drastically indicates to me that they were EXTREMELY lukewarm in assisting the successful outcome

      As to his sentencing I would opine that it was extremely severe a fine would have been suffice alongside a public apology , but maybe that wouldn’t deter or FRIGHTEN enough people to challenge cooncillors authority

    61. ALANM says:

      The plan appears to involve having all men at the forefront of the independence movement banged up in jail in order to provide time & space for women at the forefront of the independence movement to construct the world’s most politically correct devolved administration completely unopposed.

    62. Dogbiscuit says:

      The health advisor appears to be the most powerful figure in the Scottish Government right now.

    63. Dogbiscuit says:


    64. jfngw says:

      What condemnation of being in a union with England’s governing classes, after 313 years they have turned a country with no debt into a country with an annual deficit (according to figures supplied by them) of over £15bn. The most weird thing is they are actually proud of this and are crowing about it.

      What a burden it has been for Scotland, tied to a failing country that lives in the past, consumed by imagined invincibility in wars won by other countries and a football match (now at 54 years of hurt). I feel sorry for them in a way, such delusion will break them when reality sets in but maybe the comfort of Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Britannia will calm those fevered brows.

    65. Breastplate says:

      I think Manni is doing the People of.Scotland a great service in drawing attention to the institutional prejudice of the so called justice system in Scotland.

      You may not think it’s worth it but Manni seems to think it is and I’m grateful to him for his sacrifice.
      How are we supposed to fix something if nobody knows that it’s defective.
      We need more focus on these so called gatekeepers not less.

      Yes, Manni could have went home and if he did there would have been a lot less conversation about the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in.
      My personal opinion is that it’s just a bit more pressure on the shyster brigade that may make them think twice about how they treat Craig Murray.

    66. Willie says:

      We enter the realm of the politics of Northern Ireland where the state persecutes political opponents through the malign use of the Police and Prosecution Service, where the state broadcaster pumps out propaganda, where the democratic votes of the country is disregarded.

      But worst of all the deliberate policy of flooding Scotland with settlers from England in a ne “ plantation “ policy will lay down the feedstock for conflict in the years to come.

      The secret war, priorly kept from view is now in the open.

    67. Willie says:

      In relation to the Manny Singh political jailing we Ned to know the SNP councillors who three weeks before the march required the short notice change.

      Like the Alex Salmond affair this has all the hallmarks of political scheming to use the law as a weapon against those who support independence. On whose behalf, on whose instruction did these fifth columnists act.

      These huge marches were a real embarrassment to the Westminster Government. They attracted worldwide attention through media coverage. They had to be stopped and it is no accident that like Manny Singh, one of the Aberdeen march organisers was similarly pursued by Police on complaint of civic misdemeanour there.

      Like Northern Ireland and the suppression of civil rights, Scotland is now being given the same treatment, and I doubt if an Independence march will ever again be permitted in Scotland.

    68. David says:

      And when Boris says no

    69. David Caledonia says:

      I get so bored with talking poliics, Its so door and dreary at times. does anyone like horse racing or going to auctions as I do, It would be good to lighten the chat now and again even between one or two of us
      There are more than enough comments to have 100 wings forums, and I find I am being drawn into things that I do not like, I am a positive person and being dragged into some things here by certain individuals does not sit well with me
      I am not going to visit the site for at least a week, just to see if anything changes while I’m away doing my thing
      Have a nice day everyone and that does include anyone who diagrees with me , all we have to do is disagree in a civilised manner and all will be fine
      After all, its nice to be nice

      God bless us all, everyone

    70. David Caledonia says:

      Dour and dreery, this laptop is driving me to distraction

    71. David Caledonia says:

      God allmight, dour and dreary, wish we could go back and edit comments

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