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Wings Over Scotland

The great stalemate

Posted on June 11, 2017 by

We’ve written in the past about how rarely the vote in Scotland has any meaningful impact on the formation of the UK government, but the (first?) election of 2017 was one of those few occasions. Indeed, it could reasonably be argued that Scotland is mainly responsible for the complete mess that UK politics now finds itself in.

Had the seven seats won by Labour in Scotland gone to the Tories, Theresa May would have a working majority today (324 seats – taking out the Speaker and Sinn Fein MPs who don’t participate, the true threshold of majority is 322).

Conversely, had the 13 seats won by the Tories in Scotland gone to Labour OR (more plausibly) stayed with the SNP, Jeremy Corbyn would have been able to assemble a progressive alliance and form a government.

(Labour+SNP+Lib Dem would have added up to the required 322, with a cushion of five extra seats available from Plaid Cymru and the Greens. Readers who are – quite rightly – wary of considering the Lib Dems part of a progressive alliance should note that they wouldn’t be required to back Corbyn in this scenario, just not oppose him.)

It seems at the first glance, then, that a successful “stop the SNP” tactical voting campaign in Scotland bizarrely ensured that NEITHER the Tories nor Labour could form a stable UK government. (The Tories’ slapstick courting of the DUP looks set to produce the weakest administration since 1974. We see no way that another election this year can be avoided.)

But it didn’t happen quite as straightforwardly as that.

We took a look at the results in most of the Scottish seats that changed hands. (We didn’t bother with the three Borders seats or Orkney & Shetland because they were always foregone conclusions.) We’ve rounded all the numbers off to the nearest 1000 because we’re interested in the broad patterns here.



SNP vote: down 9000
Tory vote: up 5000
Labour vote: up 1000
Lib Dem vote: static

Not every part of the country needed to engage in tactical voting for the SNP to lose. This seems to be a straight and genuine SNP-Tory swing, probably Brexit-based. The North-East, with its large fishing communities, was Scotland’s most anti-EU region and hasn’t taken well to the SNP’s desire to stay in via a second indyref.


SNP vote: down 10,000
Tory vote: up 8000
Labour vote: down 3000
Lib Dem vote: static

Ayrshire, just across the sea from Northern Ireland, was always likely to be fertile ground for the Tories’ move towards a hardcore Protestant alignment, and so it proved in this seat. (The SNP lost a lot of ground elsewhere in the area but still held on – their Inverclyde majority, for example, dropped from 11,000 to under 400 despite Labour in 2nd place only gaining about 1000 votes.)

Labour voters shifted in numbers to the Ruth Davidson No Surrender And Unionist Party, and without the help of the 3000 who switched from Labour here – who actually came 2nd in 2015 – the Tories would still have fallen narrowly short of taking the seat despite the SNP collapse.


SNP vote: down 11,000
Tory vote: up 7000
Labour vote: up 1000
Lib Dem vote: down 1000

Another North-East Brexit swing.


SNP vote: down 7000
Tory vote: up 5000
Labour vote: up 1000
Lib Dem vote: down 1000

Tactical voting DOESN’T seem to have been a factor here. The Lib Dems took the seat despite a DROP in their vote, but the SNP’s Paul Monaghan had a gaffe-prone two years and shed over 40% of his vote in a seat that’s historically been Lib Dem.


SNP vote: down 11,000
Tory vote: up 4000
Labour vote: up 2000
Lib Dem vote: static

This seat has been Labour forever – in the 2005 election it had the highest majority of any seat in Britain – yet even here the Tories took more of the SNP vote than Labour did. But with one of Scotland’s highest Catholic populations it’s an area with major historical sectarian tensions, and the Tories’ sash-bedecked message, aided by heavy media attacks on former MP Phil Boswell, did enough damage to let Labour squeeze narrowly back in.

The fact that the local SNP branch has been suspended for more than a year amid bitter, prolonged, moronic and very public infighting almost certainly had a big impact on depressing the SNP vote too.


SNP vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 3000
Labour vote: static
Lib Dem vote: up 1000

It doesn’t seem like anyone voted tactically for the Lib Dems in this election. But the SNP’s majority in 2015 was one of its thinnest, so it didn’t take much of a drop for the volatile seat to change hands. (Since the 1970s all four main parties in Scotland have held it at one point or another.)


SNP vote: down 8000
Tory vote: up 5000
Labour vote: up 2000
Lib Dem vote: static

In a pattern we’re going to see a lot in this article, Labour’s capture of the seat – now its second-safest in Scotland, with a 3000 majority – was less down to any Labour surge than to the Tory one. Labour didn’t gain anywhere near enough votes to overturn the SNP’s 7000 majority from two years ago, but the SNP lost enough to the Tories to fall behind and give it to Labour by default.


SNP vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 9000
Labour vote: down 5000
Lib Dem vote: static

This one, however, has “tactical voting” written all over it. Labour were a pretty close second in 2015, with Jim Murphy finishing 7000 votes in front of the Tory candidate, but Blair McDougall managed to LOSE 5000 Labour votes and ensure that the Tories came from 3rd to win fairly handsomely, perhaps helped by unalert voters not heeding the small print on this genuine billboard McDougall put up all over the constituency.


SNP vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 5000
Labour vote: up 1000
Lib Dem vote: static

Historically-unpopular idiot Christine Jardine actually LOST the Lib Dems 60 votes on their 2015 figure, but the Tories managed to hurt the SNP enough for that to still give her party back a seat they’d previously held for 20 years.


SNP vote: down 9000
Tory vote: up 2000
Labour vote: up 1000
Lib Dem vote: static

This was another seat the SNP lost rather than Labour winning. Kezia Dugdale’s party barely improved on their disastrous 39%-swing-to-the-SNP 2015 showing, but a collapse in the vote of another candidate heavily targeted by Daily Mail smears saw Labour pinch it by a couple of hundred thanks to Tory gains from the Nats.


SNP vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 15,000
Labour vote: up 3000
Lib Dem vote: down 13,000

An almost entirely tactical-votes victory, and the most obvious of the night. The Lib Dems were second in 2015, with almost three times the Tory vote, but they simply moved over en masse to let the Tories win from more than 20,000 votes behind, although even then it still needed a hefty number of SNP voters to walk away from former First Minister Alex Salmond (again probably on account of Brexit).


SNP vote: down 11,000
Tory vote: up 6000
Labour vote: down 1000
Lib Dem vote: static

This one’s a bit of a puzzler. Labour captured the seat by a tiny sliver despite their vote going DOWN. The SNP’s Roger Mullin was a conscientious and effective MP, but saw a massive drop in his vote, which mostly went to the Tories despite the seat being traditionally a Labour mining area (it was Gordon Brown’s old heartland).


SNP vote: down 9000
Tory vote: up 6000
Labour vote: up 2000
Lib Dem vote: up 1000

This small Labour gain would barely have dented the SNP’s 10,000 majority, but the Tory swing hurt the Nats enough to get Labour the seat back by under 900 votes.

It’s quite hard to ascertain the motivation of Tory voters here. Even with a big swing they had no chance of winning, so we must assume they thought – wrongly – that the UK outcome was so secure they could afford to attack the SNP without helping Jeremy Corbyn. That won’t be the case next time.

(The other possible analysis – that the SNP lost votes back to Labour in a traditionally Labour seat, but Labour voters then squandered most of that advantage by tactically voting Tory – makes no sense, and that applies in lots of other areas too. Swings CAN be in multiple stages – SNP voters go Labour, Labour voters go Tory, producing what looks like a straight SNP-to-Tory move when it actually isn’t – but what sort of loony would be voting tactically for the Tories in, say, Glasgow East?)


SNP vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 7000
Labour vote: static
Lib Dem vote: static

Another Brexit-centred switch rather than a tactical one. Moray was the most Leave constituency in Scotland, voting just 51% Remain.


SNP vote: down 8000
Tory vote: up 10,000
Labour vote: down 6000
Lib Dem vote: static

A big Labour-to-Tory tactical vote here, among a few other likely reasons. Dropping 8000 votes in the wake of a disastrous IT cock-up over EU farm subsidies wouldn’t have been enough for Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh to lose (which she eventually did by just 3000) without the hefty extra Tory gains from Labour voters.


SNP vote: down 11,000
Tory vote: up 6000
Labour vote: down 1000
Lib Dem vote: down 1000

Another historically-Labour seat in the West of Scotland where Tory gains from their heavily sectarian campaign hurt the SNP enough to return the seat to Labour by a wafer-thin margin despite Labour actually LOSING votes since their 2015 defeat.


SNP vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 6000
Labour vote: down 2000
Lib Dem vote: static

This is another seat where co-ordinated tactical voting looks like a certainty. Labour were 2nd in 2015 and would have been the logical recipients of a Unionist vote, yet the Tories came from 3rd to win it because Labour’s vote went DOWN. And every tactical vote was needed, because the Tories won the seat by just 148, with Labour miles behind in 3rd.


SNP vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 9000
Labour vote: up 3000
Lib Dem vote: down 7000

As with Gordon, this was a big Lib-Dem-to-Tory tactical switch where the drop in the SNP vote alone wouldn’t have been enough to give the Tories the seat, but the big boost from Lib Dems ensured what was in the end a comfortable win.


So it’s a complicated picture. Overt and direct tactical voting, counter-intuitively, seems to only have played a significant part in a handful of seats (eg Gordon, East Renfrewshire, Edinburgh South, Ayr, Ochil, Stirling).

More commonly, SNP losses appear to have been – whether accidentally or on purpose – the result NOT of a surge to the party that won the seat, but of the Tories’ nationwide swing hurting the SNP so much that Labour or the Lib Dems won “by default”, without actually making any ground themselves.

Labour was in truth pretty startled to gain six new seats in which their total combined net vote only went up by 4,000. In two of the six its vote went DOWN, and the Lib Dem story was even more striking – of its three gains, two were won off the back of a LOWER vote than the party got in 2015.

Except in a very small number of seats, this election wasn’t so much a triumph of tactical voting as a case of a rising Tory tide lifting all Unionist boats. And while 21 seats were swept away – and the damage could easily have been considerably worse – the SNP may take some comfort from that fact.

It’s hard to see the Tory vote getting much bigger than this – we’ve always been of the view that it had a ceiling of around 30%, and it’s more or less there now – and even a very modest SNP recovery would take back quite a lot of seats very quickly.

Conversely, even in seats where Labour ran the Nats very close, the actual Labour vote barely moved. The SNP might have only held Glasgow East, for example, by 75 votes, but that was entirely down to the collapse of its own vote – down by 10,000 after a string of scandals hit former MP Natalie McGarry. Labour still only actually managed to pick up 220 of those votes, with 20 times as many going to the Tories.

So in short: despite their seat gains, there’s no Labour surge in Scotland, no Lib Dem revival, and the Tories have probably just about hit their maximum but still only won a fifth of seats and just scraped into second place in vote share.

None of that changes the broader picture – support for independence is still basically unchanged and the SNP will still have a challenge on their hands to secure a pro-Yes majority at the next Holyrood election. A difficult couple of years are ahead.

But it does suggest that unless they do something stupid their grip on Scottish politics in general looks secure for some time yet, and in a rough week that might just cheer them up a little.

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  1. 11 06 17 12:52

    Sifting the runes – Scottish Snap

  2. 12 06 17 22:08

    The State of This (Union) -

262 to “The great stalemate”

  1. Big Jock says:

    I believe the SNP need to hold indy ref2 after Brexit whenever that is. We cannot sit in government for another 4 years seeking a second mandate. By the looks of it we will struggle to win like 2011 again. In fact they may lose their majority with the Greens.

    The SNP will shed support and shed members if they become just another devolution party. I for one will leave the party and literally stop voting. Converse to popular wisdom. I think the SNP have become to focused on the day job and not enough on independence.

    Tough times ahead for the SNP. I believe Scotland has one last chance and it has to be in this Holyrood term.

  2. theMadMurph says:

    I was quite relieved the FMs speech was a boilerplate banality. Now is the time to reflect, but not overthink it.

    The message before this GE was we have our mandate, this will triple lock it. She won the election in Scotland and secured her triple lock.

    No matter how unpopular that is with the NO SURRENDER mob, they might be happy for that parachute/lifejacket when the time comes.

  3. Robert Louis says:

    As regards the North East, their is a real need to get the facts out about fishing. It was the Tories who sold out the fishing rights to the EU in the first place. That is made clear in official documents from that period. Yet we are bombarded by media (BBC and their chums) suggesting only the Tories can save fishing. It is baloney. It seems ,sadly as though many in the North east have been taken in by it.

    Just slightly O/T, I just watched an interview with Michael Heseltine on SKY on the sophy ridge programme at around 10am, and aside from his expected antipathy to Labour, he talked an absolute shed load of sense. Also about Scotland. It is absolutely worth watching.

    If another election is called, it is clear, that every last one of us, myself included, must move heaven and earth to get out and find time to help the SNP on the ground.

  4. gus1940 says:

    I thought that I had heard it all but -unless I misheard did Anna Soubry really refer to Roly Poly Ruth as ‘The Mighty Ruth Davidson’?

    I’m trying to picture May addressing the Tory Autumn Conference as PM – Does not compute.

  5. Roddy Macdonald says:

    The Pro-Brexiteers who have turned to the Tories must be feeling a tad stupid / let down as Ruth Davidson’s hubris now has her making noises for a soft Brexit, the early indications of which are largely indistiguishable from what Nicola Sturgeon has been arguing for all along.

  6. Astonished says:

    I had the misfortune to listen to a little of radio shortbread today – they were bigging up the SNP. That they had won etc. ( I know far too little , far ,far too late).

    I didn’t listen long – a minute or so – so possibly it went back to the mainstream SNP BAAAD.

    However the thought struck me – possibly they are becoming worried about the storm coming their way ?

  7. Mike says:

    You still have to factor in the MSM who campaigned tirelessly for the Ruth Davidson no surrender party.
    I believe it was the MSM who haemorrhaged the SNP vote by giving the Tories a very strong propaganda platform while ensuring the SNP message stayed relatively silent.
    Their failure to challenge the Tories on anything in Scotland in contrast to how badly Teresa May was challenged in the rest of the UK to me is the main cause of the drop in support to the SNP.
    It was the media who made the GE in Scotland. If Davidson was challenged by the media to the same extent as May was down South it would have been an entirely different story.
    Brexit or no Brexit.

  8. Irma says:

    I have never voted for anyone but the SNP, but this election campaign left me completely disinterested. There was no positivity, no plan, ridiculous justification of devolved issues and a desperation to be perceived as ‘competent’ and no bloody passion. If they don’t get off their backsides and engage their core support, never mind borderline supporters, this is going to end in tears!

  9. Fairliered says:

    The other significant factor seems to be the large number of SNP voters who stayed at home. The SNP have to ask why?

  10. bookie from hell says:

    education/indyref2 hurt

  11. Mike says:

    The media in England and Wales was more or less evenly split between the Tories and Labour and the 3 parties contested each other vigorously while the SNP had to contend with a joint coalition of the 3 parties working together plus the entire media corps.
    That’s what made the difference not any appeal the people of Scotland suddenly developed for Tories or the union.
    The fishing industry is a case in point. There was no media coverage of how the UK Government betrayed the fishing industry or the likelihood of them doing so again.
    Even the local media within each constituency were anti SNP.
    Its actually amazing the SNP held on to so many seats after such an onslaught.
    I believe we can thank the online sites such as Wings Newsnet Bella and others for that.

  12. Tom says:

    Remember the swing from one party to another doesn’t mean all, or even most, of X party’s voters now vote for Y. The people turning out varies every election (even if the turn out is 60% in 2 elections there will be different people in each 60%).

    I suspect the vast majority of SNP swing to the tories this time was actually turn out change – particularly as overall turnout was down in most constituencies which tends to unduly affect younger more SNP-prone voters. There was also an assumption that a lot of SNP seats were safe which, combined with electoral-exhaustion in Scotland most likely lowered the SNPs turnout.

  13. Gfaetheblock says:

    Couple of points that counter this argument is that politics is a lot about momentum and the great SNP mo had been reversed. This in addition to the realisation that the SNP are not unbeatable will also be a big boost to the other parties.

    Re Edinburgh West, where I voted, it should not be underestimated how poorly the Michelle Thompson debacle played. All these constituencies will have had local issues at play.

  14. Capella says:

    West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine was certainly a case of Lib Dem tactical voting. Their candidate was very young (looked about 12 years old) didn’t visibly campaign, and was a complete unknown – to me anyway.

    This is a constituency which has had many Liberal and Lib Dem MPs and had a Lib Dem council for decades. Sir Robert Smith was MP until 2015.

    It has had Tory MPs in the past – Alick Buchanan Smith (d 1991) and George Kynoch MP from 1992 – 97. The most “charismatic” Tory was Mad Mitch, Lt Col. Colin Mitchell MP 1969 – 74, famous for the “save the Argylls” campaign. Wikipedia has the lurid details.

    But WK&D is traditionally a Liberal constituency. I don’t think it will be Tory for long.

  15. JPJ2 says:

    Thanks for the analysis, though I suspect there is a lot more churn than the overt ups and downs allow us to access.

    What bothers me most is that if there is another election it is entirely possible that a (hopefully) few regains from the Tories will be swamped by losses to Corbyn inspired Labour.

    It is for this reason that I believe the SNP should make absolutely clear that while they wish to stand up for Scotland at Westminster, even having ZERO seats there, is irrelevant to whether there should be an IndyRef2 or independence itself (even having only 6 seats there did not stop the 2011 majority Holyrood victory and consequent referendum.

    The SNP need to make this absolutely clear , otherwise the “triple lock” will be morphed by unionists into a requirement that the SNP must win every type of election.

    From now on the SNP position must simply be that Holyrood elections, and only Holyrood elections, are the basis for future Indyrefs and independence.

  16. Effijy says:

    These points that the Rev raises are vital for our armoury
    come future elections.

    People really owe it to democracy to vote in the first place, and then vote for the party that you believe in, not the party most likely to beat a party that you don’t agree with.

    It must be highlighted that Labour may have been able to form a government had Kezia, supposedly Labour, not encouraged certain regions to vote Tory, because she doesn’t like SNP.

    Similarly the Tories definitely had worthless paper candidates in regions where they wanted Labour to overcome the SNP vote. That tactic may well have cost the Tories that UK Majority that they so desperately wanted.

    The SNP needs to show that the Westminster Parties will do anything to distort democracy as it should be in Scotland.

    The McCrone Report being made Top Secret, the stolen 6,000 miles of Scottish Maritime Waters, the Thatcher distortions of what Scotland’s economic share should be, the STV voting system that is so fair that it shouldn’t be applied anywhere else other than Scotland, and had Stop SNP at its core, that £7 Billion that Mundell tried to Con Scotland out of with our alleged new powers, EVEL, and so it goes on, and on.

    Scots need to realise why Westminster puts so much effort into shackling Scotland to England when we are constantly belittled by being told we are an economic basket case, we are too wee, too stupid, too deep in debt.

    I’ve never seen, heard or read the fact that Scotland has never been allowed to borrow money at any time, from the UK media.
    Any debt that we supposedly have has been awarded to Scotland by the same Westminster that took the Trillions from our North Sea revenues.

    The Tories will now negotiate a Norway style deal, which will cost pretty much as full EU membership, in order to keep trading with EU market. Anything to keep in power and the rich getting richer, which includes their MPs.

    Tory MP, Nadhim Zahawi claimed expenses that paid to heat his stables. This is simply outrageous. Millions of people are struggling to pay their energy bills but Mr Zahawi saw fit to use the taxpayer’s money to heat his stables.
    The Tory party represent the interests of the very few privileged millionaires in Britain and leave the rest to fend for themselves.

    At this present moment we have a huge crisis in the energy market. People can no longer afford to pay their bills. In the three years this government has been in power there has been a 37% increase in energy bills.

  17. Excellent, that brings some clarity. Interesting that the SLab gains are through no improved performance. I wonder if their overall vote share is down from 2015. It seems tactically, attacking the Tories is the sensible move and with the Brexit and coalition shambles should they upset people by causing another election this year the SNP could very well see a lot of those Tory votes and seats come back.

  18. Robet says:

    The question we need to ask of the major UK parties is: “what’s your plan to share out the Brexit pain?” For the many, or for the few? Either way there’s pain – and Scotland has a way out. [This week’s Economist has an article on the coming pain of any form of Brexit – and it doesn’t read good for the UK as a whole.

  19. Robert Graham says:

    Allowing the BBC and the other broadcast media to dictate the terms of the debate everything that was reserved was spoken about, we had a three to one battering every day and it wasn’t challenged the only TV debate we held our own was the one with Angus Robertson, his performance should have been replicated in all the others, We are way too compliant with the BBC, they need to be challenged on every single question, even some of the bloody stupid questions they ask, I believe the losses could have been avoided with a bit more grit , the BBC are an arm of this Tory government treat them like that ,they are the enemy, and never wi Be friends .

  20. Mike says:


    Yes there was but the MSM made sure nobody got to see it.
    Wake up people the SNP ran a flawless campaign they did everything right the problem is it was spun and warped by the MSM.
    People are criticising the SNP on the basis of what the media are telling them.
    I thought the pro Indy movement was better than that? Havent we learned not to trust the spin the horseshit and the outright lies yet?
    We’ve never been closer to Independence which is why the MSM has jumped up a couple of gears and the pro union parties are working even more closely together in Scotland.
    I saw that coming why didn’t anybody else?
    This is the union fighting tooth and nail from the corner we pushed them into.
    This is not a time for recrimination but a time to push back harder and finish them off before they manage to get free of the corner.

  21. Weechid says:

    Please don’t class Dumfries and Galloway as a “Borders” seat. We aren’t “The Borders” and have very little border with England. We are mostly coastline or bordering with other Scottish Regions. Happy to be referred to as South of Scotland. In Dumfries and Galloway we did not feel that getting a Tory was a foregone conclusion. We had an excellent sitting SNP MP and many of us thought that he’d done a good enough job to be returned. I can only think that it was tactical voting that forced the millionaire gentleman farmer upon us and I hope that when most people find out just how bloody useless he is they will come to their senses. Whether we will get the chance to get Richard Arkless back I don’t know. He might find that having the time back home with his wife and family are preferable to knocking his pan out in the shitehole that is Westminster for a bunch of ungrateful constituents who don’t know a good thing when they see it. Hell f*****g mend them.

  22. Muscleguy says:

    I’m not so sure Fishing was the be all and end all of the Tories taking Angus. Sure there is Arbroath, but a lot of the fisher families still stay here in the Ferry and sail out of Arbroath so you might expect that issue to have unseated Stuart Hosie.

    Angus has the richest soil in Scotland. So farming is a big industry there. Add to that SNP voter apathy in the schemes of Carnoustie, Arbroath, Forfar and Brechin from an uninspiring SNP campaign and you have a much more plausible explanation.

    Angus is not Banff or Moray and is not the true NE you seem to have mistaken it for Stu.

  23. The Proctor Lewis says:

    I hope Nicola has had time to think, and concludes that to deny the Torys there hour of glory, announce that the timetable for the second independence referendum stays the same. I.e. At the end of the Brexit negotiations. Then if she did the conservatives guns are spiked, all those Tory gains will be for nothing.

  24. Bootsy81 says:

    Two questions Rev,

    1)In seats like Coatbridge, Chryston, Bellshill for example the SNP vote was down 11,000, the tories were up 4000 and Labour up 2000. So what happened to the 5000 missing voters? Am I missing something or did some SNP voter just not bother voting?

    2)If there’s another election this year does this shed any light on what the SNP may do with Angus Robertson and Alex Salmond? Will they contest the same seats again or would they be better off contesting other seats elsewhere to try and get back in?


  25. Stoker says:

    The vast majority of people cannot stand aggressive, lying bullies and the establishment knows this. Don’t think for a second that the saturation Ruth coverage we experienced prior to that election was “coincidental” or engineered by the discredited Scottish churnalists.

    It is my firm belief that approach was ordered from the very top and a lot of Yessers fell for it in their desperation to give the lying bully a political kicking by believing in the sudden support for Jezza and giving their vote to Slabber.

    As this was being manufactured certain organisations such as the OO were mobilising all their facilities to get the votes to the Tories in selected seats, financially backed by secret donors such as this fellow:

    You will only combat and defeat this by focusing on what you are there to do. Over 62% of Scotland wants to remain in the EU. Vows were broken and many lies told. You are elected to protect and represent those people and expose those lies, vehemently!

  26. heedtracker says:

    Fascinating read. For at least 6 months maybe more, we’ve had all the BBC led press ranting and raging at us, “we said no, we meant NO!” This has clearly got ALL the tory vote out in Scotland.

    Can Ruth D, BBC Scotland etc actually build on their febrile tory base though, with even more fibs and riles, geddit:D

  27. Big Jock says:

    Sorry to be negative guys. I am starting to feel that we can’t win this. I am beginning to think Scotland deserves everything that comes to it now. Time and time we have sold ourselves out. We are a divided nation and most are happy to be abused by Tories. The EU vote should have changed everything but it didn’t. So will a bad Brexit make any difference? Beginning to think the Zombies are as dead as a skinned rabbit.

  28. Ken500 says:

    The SNP won. Hold a stronger position in Westminster than before. The balance of power in a hung Parliament.

    The unlucky for some 13 Scottish Unionists MP’s elected will put up the SNP support and support for Independence in Scotland. They won the battle but lost the war. Unionists lies will cause a Unionist backlash in Scotland. Especially the more Davidson lies are scruntinised. Tories always the most toxic Party in Scotland. Another Tory/Unionist Gov in Westminster will put up support for the SNP and Independence in Scotland. Independence vote will win.

    If more voters had voted SNP they would have won more seats. Simple really. Voters complacent. Could be a lesson learnt? Unionist collusion just bought Independence closer.

    Westminster votes is entirely decided by the rest of UK. Scotland outvoted. 10 to 1.

    If the Press want to ruin their industry with lies. It is up to them. £Billions of losses. Do not subscribe to SKy. Buy or listen. Just vote SNP, SNP. Vote for Independence. Simple

  29. Northern Islander says:

    I saw this article posted from the New Statesman in April 2015 which makes interesting reading.

    “Most people hesitate to give the SNP more than 30 seats (as a recent survey of hundreds of political academics proved). Very few can conceive of more than 40. And almost no one predicts the SNP will win at least 50.”

    Overall, this is the GE result that was expected in 2015.

  30. Ken500 says:

    Results show the majority of voters do not agree with the media. The media are out of step with the market. The results were not as media directed. Or Polls forecast. The majority mistrust and do not believe the media and hold them in contempt. They are destroying themselves. Most people engage with various sources.

  31. Glamaig says:

    Some analysis of seats we held with reduced majorities would also be interesting. At the count I was at (pre 2015 safe Labour), in terms of vote share, it looked very much like a Labour surge. Tories were also up. I was shocked how narrow the margin was between Labour and SNP in one of the most Yes areas in the country.

    I put this down to the Corbyn surge belatedly spreading north (didnt detect it on the doorsteps even a week before the vote). Or, did previous SNP voters stay at home, unenthused?

  32. Mark Henderson says:

    Is it worth doing a comparison between 2010 and 2017 General Elections?

  33. Walter Scott says:

    Some of the deprived areas of the west of Scotland voted against their own best interests & went full on Loyalist. Davidson has let this genie out the bottle & it’ll be with us for years to come. Now she wants the DUP to be less anti gay. They aren’t just anti gay, they’re creationists , anti abortion , anti Catholic , anti Irish (Davidson’s partner is both the latter ) They are knuckledragging anti science & climate deniers. Did Trump’s supporters vote in this election ?

  34. Marcia says:

    A poor campaign message not helped by the election campaign period discussing devolved issues. The TV was used by the Unionist inclined media to put the SNP on the defence when they should have been attacking. A strange election that was supposed to be about Brexit and Brexit was rarely mentioned.

    The turnout was also a key factor. A lot of people who voted in 2015 sat on their hands this time, not helped by the torrential rain all day.

  35. Ken500 says:

    The Tories did not win.

  36. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:


    Have you ever been to a BBC Protest Rally???

    Didn’t think so.

    Nuff said.


  37. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:


    Have you ever been to ANY Indy Rally???

    Didn’t think so.


  38. brobb says:

    It took mike russell a while but he did state clearly that the prospect of indyref 2 was raised because Scotland was going to be dragged out of europe. The Scottish Govt put forward alternative compromises which, if these had been accepted, would have taken indyref 2 off the table for now.

    Since just about everyone interviewed this morning seemed to be arguing for some sort of single market access surely the Scottish Government can now argue that their original position still stands without any loss of face.

    Incidentally Stuart’s analysis here confirms what I felt had happened in this election ie that the scottish tory and labour campaigns totally skewed their UK party chances for winning – tempted to say it serves them right!

  39. Ghillie says:

    If the SNP have shed Tory-leaning voters then that is ,I believe a good shedding.

    Anyone voting Tory needs to take a long hard look at their morals. Some will hopefully gag and return.

    And maybe now those who voted SNP in order to benefit from their policies but would never vote for Independence are also gone.

    Eventualy the polls will show how many Indy voters are lurking amongst unionist parties (don’t get that but hey, each to their own)

    And when the 16 and 17 year olds and European residents can vote, together with the Green vote, we will hopefuly see a great rise in the Indy vote 🙂

    As for the SNP vote, time and the chaos down south will possibly send some of those who gave Slab a second chance quietly back to the party that actualy looks after the interests of our population.

    There is still a great deal of lack of knowledge, largely thanks to the media and historicaly, limited teaching of Scottish history and Scottish assets and acheivements in our schools. But little by little we are getting it out there.

    Thanks Rev. Your analysis is cheering = )

  40. Effijy says:

    Wouldn’t it be a good idea to give the Tories yet another Wobble by generating 1,000,000 signatures on a petition demanding that they do not embrace the DUP to force their
    abhorrent Bills through Parliament.

    The DUP are proud to admit that they Hate Catholics, Hate Gay Relationships, want to deny Women’s rights on abortion, and another real beauty is the fact they claim the earth to be only 4,000 years old. Geologists,Palaeontologists and Darwinists are all products of the Devil.

    These people shouldn’t be in a coalition, they should be in an institution with bars and jackets that have sleeves that can fasten around their backs to prevent self harming.

  41. Jamieboy says:

    The ecstasy I felt at Hampden park yesterday was incredible but even with two minutes left on the clock I looked at my pals and we all knew what was coming before Kane hammered the point home and the hordes bellowed Rule Britania. We lack confidence as a nation. Twenty years of knocking on doors in the schemes and private estates – they want to believe you you can see it in their eyes, but it’s the fear and sense of inferiority that overrules their mind. We need a sense of nationhood like the Irish which transcends class and demographic. This builds confidence. Yes it’s much better now – my bairns got Burns and Bruce at school whilst all I got was Queen Lizzie. Nicola needs to talk this nation up , extol the great natural and human resources of this nation rather than try and fashion a Labour party mark 2 ( the real one is coming back behind you) stop silly name calling and squabbling and hammer home how INDEPENDECE is something transformative and will create pride and confidence with our people. An outward looking European nation with a Scandanavian social conscience ( I genuinely believe most Scots feel this way )and economic go ahed of the Irish.

  42. TYRAN says:

    Re: Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. Brown was only the latter years due to boundary changes. Kirkcaldy was its own constituency and he never stood there (was Lewis Moonie for years). I always considered Dunfermline as Brown’s true turf and they returned SNP hold. So yes a puzzler. Poor campaigning perhaps.

  43. Ken500 says:

    There is much remorse in the NE which can be channelled constructively. Shock and horror. Anger and frustration. A backlash against the Tory/Unionists will happen.

    Alex Salmond (& SNP) one the best politicians in the world. Brought everything good to the NE and Scotland. Every investment. Transformed the NE. The Holyrood good governance of Scotland etc. A few misguided voters in the NE will not change that, The SNP and Independence has not change. In fact will intensify.

  44. Ken500 says:

    Some young voters voted Corbyn. Not realising it would let Tories through. ‘They did not do enough research’. People are advised time and time again. They do not listen. Many voters in the NE are going to be more than disappointed.

  45. Dorothy Devine says:

    I hope Nicola was watching BBBC Scotland’s politics show , lots of good advice for her from those with our interests close to their hearts – David Torrance and Severin Carell.

    Could there be a better choice for advisers I ask – expecting lots of suggestions!

  46. Street Andrew says:

    Perhaps this is fanciful, but… were some voters trying to strengthen Theresa May’s hand in getting South Britain out of the EU to reinforce the Leave/Remain split across the Border?

    Any mathematicians or physicists reading this will be familiar with the ‘Three Bodies Problem’. (Anybody else can look it up on Google – understanding the nature of the problem is not difficult despite it being notoriously an insoluble mathematical conundrum)

    We are currently seeing this played out in politics in real time. The EU, UK and Scotland is a rats’ nest of interrelationships and we won’t get much of an idea of Scottish sentiment until the next round of Holyrood elections run under sensible rules – where people can vote for what they want rather than fry their brains second guessing their best tactical option.

    Scottish voter intentions – in terms of their preferred policy are almost impossible to discern from the 2017 GE results. For the most part England made a pragmatic binary choice, but in Scotland FPTP yielded the traditional Tory advantage from a three horse race.

  47. Marcia says:

    I doubt the Tories will prosper with their leaflets saying, “Arlene Foster’s Candidate”.

  48. Glamaig says:

    OK I should just have worked it out for myself 🙂

    The Labour increase was pretty small. The narrowing majority was due in equal measure to a swing SNP to Tory, and SNP no show.

    So – small but determined Tory hard Unionist surge, smaller Corbyn bounce, plus SNP lack of enthusiasm. Not bad news for Yes, just waters muddied by unwanted election with confusing agendas, too much going on.

    But within those numbers, who knows what the movement was between parties in different directions and for different reasons.

  49. tartanfever says:

    All very interesting Rev, but the important question is, how are the UK press portraying Scottish Labour’s ‘tactical vote Tory in Scotland’ which looks as though it probably cost Corbyn the election ?

    Are Owen Jones, Paul Mason, The Guardian etc not shouting it from the rooftops ?

    If we can’t even get that narrative on the front pages (National ?, Sunday Herald ?) then that should prove insightful to how impossible it is when the press close ranks.

    The headline: ‘Corbyn betrayed by Dugdale Tory Vote’ hasn’t even made the lower pages of the newspapers.

  50. Jim says:

    Suzanne Evans of UKIP, “I think we are doing better than the SNP”.

    You got NO seats you absolute roaster!

  51. HandandShrimp says:

    To make matters worse the turnout was only 66%. That 5% that didn’t turn to I fear might well have been the difference between our 44 seats and the 35 we got. What is worse is that if there is an Oct election we may see an even lower turnout, bad weather, cold nights and a complete and utter scunner on elections of any description. Anything could happen in October if the Tories are brave enough to try again. the EU will think we are mentalists if we stop the negotiations and suspend government for another 2 months though.

    Politics comes in ebbs and high tides. There is no magic bullet but if experience has taught me anything, the public are not keen in on in fighting and back stabbing. The SNP have to show a little humility and also resilience. The party has known much, much darker times than these. Indeed, although some Unionist commentators and activists want to make this about the SNP the media scent blood in the Tory camp and it is they that are on the ropes. the papers barely mention the SNP today.

    The SNP should ride this out and focus on Holyrood. We have the Queensferry bridge opening coming up and I believe Humza is looking at bringing rail back in house (something Labour say they now support). There will be good news stories and I think there has to be a renewed effort by the Holyrood Government to be a wee bit radical and voter friendly, land reform, tighten up the fox hunting laws, let Jeanne Freeman talk about her welfare proposals, Independence in itself means little, there has to be vision. I think the team is there that can do that. Nicola should relax and talk about the day job. Ruth can’t cope with actual policies, she is a two trick pony, tax cuts for the rich and no independence. Running away from the C4 interviewer is a classic example of how she can’t cope with difficult policy pressure floudering on Radio with Emma Barnett was another. She isn’t nearly as good as she and the press like to make out. She cracks and turns nasty very easily.

  52. Zephyr says:

    I find the direct swing from snp to tories a bit suspect. I wonder if it’s possible for there to be a two stage process. If snp voters were swayed by Corbyn but previous labour voters switched to tory that would appear as a swing from snp to tory. Unfortunately we’d need some polling data to be able to tell.

  53. FIONA TOMANY says:

    dirty voting means that theri no one going to give the PM a hard time or hold her to account. Angus Robertson was the only one who rattleD her in PMQ’S AND HE’S GONE.

  54. Effijy says:

    The current leader of the DUP (pronounced dope) and her predecessor are currently being investigated for two separate multi million pound scams. Maybe immunity from prosecution will be part of the `Deal`!

    The DUP are creationists, they believe that God created I wonder if any DUP MPs will be getting an invite to Ruth Davidsons same sex marriage!

    On a more serious note the U.D.A. the DUP`s paramilitary wing have shot and killed two men from Carrickfergus in the past few weeks, the latest when the victim was leaving Sainsbury`s with his young daughter on a Sunday afternoon!

    On a brighter note the 12th of July is now a UK wide public holiday although I am not sure if will apply to Catholics and Gays.

    Who needs Hospitals and Schools when you can have `Saunas for Chickens` via DUP £500,000 Bio-mass Scam-
    Och RHI the noo !!!

    Big Brother NI
    earth only a few thousand years ago while some hardliners say it was in fact 1690 which to be honest is their answer to most if not all questions. The Tories have agreed to close down the Natural History Museum as it is full Dinosaur bones which most be fake cause Dinosaurs never existed!

    DUP MP Sammy Wilson continually bleats on about how Global Warming is a massive scam perpetrated tens of thousands of the most qualified scientists in the world. What do they know, Sammy has O-Levels in Physics and Chemistry!

    At the time Iris the wife of Peter Robinson, the then leader of the DUP said that being Gay was worse than being a child abuser she was having an extra marital affair with a teenager. This was OK because it was a boy and therefore not same sex.

    When Peter Robinson and Martin McGuiness the then First and Deputy First Ministers where waiting at Heathrow for a flight back to Belfast they both decided to have a haircut. Robinson`s barber finished first and asked him if he would like a splash of Eau De Cologne to which Robinson replied – Definitely not I do not want to go home to my wife smelling like a Turkish Brothel. Just then McGuiness`s barber finished and asked him the same question to which he answered –
    All right splash it on my wife doesn`t know what a Turkish Brothel smells like!

  55. schrodingers cat says:

    sp, commentators desparate to get nicola to take indyref2 off the table, “she must do this next week etc……”

    no she doesnt, in fact, their are no elections planned for the next 4 years so why change policy?

    folk in scotland voted for parties who gave no clarification of what brexit meant, they still dont know, corbyns position this morning was that he wanted all of the advantages of being in the single market without being in the single market etc…

    the snp’s position was efta/eea membership for scotland or indyref2, this was refused

    now it looks like westminster wants to go for efta/eea membership but is too afraid to point out to people that this also means free movement of people.

    i suggest nicola should just ignore the media, let treeza start the negs in 9 days and see what happens.

    we cannot formulate a plan until we know where we are wrt brexit
    indeed, the people cannot have a basis to vote for anyone until they know the result of negs.

    there is a chance that treezas dup alliance fails and that rather than face the eu, she goes for another election. 🙁 but this wont solve the issue, only when we know what brexit means can people make an informed choice

  56. Bill McDermott says:

    Amidst all the analysis this morning on Sunday Politics, I was struck by John Curtice’s take on Indyref 2 which was that it all depends on Brexit. Whilst Christine Jardine and James Kelly bore on about taking Indyref2 off the table, Curtice quietly says it might be parked but it will essentially come back into play if the Brexit negotiations don’t result in the UK remaining in the single market.

    That is the defining issue and it squares with what Nicola Sturgeon has been saying throughout this election, but which has been drowned out by the Unionist triumvirate’s ‘No to Indyref 2’.

    I do not know what more Nicola could have done to explain her real stance, but it was certainly overtaken by the shouty Ruth D. It also squares with Hesiltine and the more thoughtful Tories. Essentially for now it must mean that SNP have to look for a narrative that has broad appeal, is sensible amidst all the chaos and can keep on board all the different interests. I don’t envy them.

  57. Effijy says:

    I was sent this by a friend in N.Ireland:

    I wonder if any DUP MPs will be getting an invite to Ruth Davidsons same sex marriage?

    Maybe as Wee Ruth wants to include these Knuckle Draggers
    in an All Party Brexit discussion.
    Looks like everything in the Natural History Museums will be heading over to the EU out of harms way.

    On a more serious note the U.D.A. the DUP`s paramilitary wing have shot and killed two men from Carrickfergus in the past few weeks, the latest when the victim was leaving Sainsbury`s with his young daughter on a Sunday afternoon!

    On a brighter note the 12th of July is now a public holiday, although I am not sure if will apply to Catholics and Gays, or Women who have considered abortion?

    Who needs Hospitals and Schools when you can have `Saunas for Chickens` – via the DUP £500,000,000 Bio Mass Scam.
    Och RHI the noo !!!

    N.I Big Brother

  58. Mike says:


    Exactly another case in point. We aint going to see any real credible or honest analysis of the election result from anybody in the MSM in Scotland instead we will get a never ending narrative of a Scottish Tory leader being portrayed as Boudicca Nicola Sturgeon as “That woman” nobody likes and never ending claims that the case for a second Indy ref has been demolished.
    The MSM is never going to point out how Davidson cost May her majority or how Dugdale cost Corbyn number 10.
    The narrative will never be anything other than anti SNP irrespective of the reality truth or facts.

  59. ROBBO says:

    I’m going to apologise in advancefor my blunt criticism of the party which I will always support but having just listened to the end of Russell/Brewer interview on BBC Politics this morning I am becoming increasingly frustrated. When asked repeatedly by Brewer the SNP take Indy2 off the table we got some waffle that we have often criticise other parties for. In my view the upsurge enjoyed by labour was in most respects down to Corbyn’s plain speaking. Instead of forcing home the point that once Brexit negotiations are complete and it is obvious Scotland as expected will lose out economically the SNP are the ONLY party offering the chance to debate the issues and if needs be change course via Indy2. There are still too many Politicians who still talk over people’s heads. They are simply not interested at the moment about what is ‘brought to the table and soft/hard Brexit’ all they want to know is how this will affect our future. Now that maybe difficult to spell out at the moment but PLAIN SPEAKING IS WHAT IS REQUIRED…. NONE OF THIS INTELLECTUAL BULLSHIT THAT SPEWS SO READILY FROM THEIR LIPS THESE DAYS. THE PUBLIC ARE SICK OF THIS AND IF ANYTHING THEY HAVE LEARNT IS THAT THIS IS CRAP. In essence we have simply lost the art of communication in simple terms which from a party that depends on confronting the media lies and distortions from door to door campaigning is critical.

  60. Yerkitbreeks says:

    Gus1940 says “Roly Poly Ruth”

    Aren’t we a bit bigger than such comments

  61. heedtracker says:

    Turn out in Scotland was much lower in Scotland because Scots didnt really have to vote. They clearly have the SNP gov they want, yes SNP have not delivered indy but they are clearly more than competent at actual government, they clearly work for the good of Scotland not the SLabour party and wait for it, there is no referendum this year. Scots have a government that is delivering, its pissing down, no biggee.

    But cross the border, the English totally freaked out at Mayhem’s staggering arrogance and ofcourse the insane thuggery of the anti JC BBC led media creep show.

    JC only had to show enough of the English that he was not the commie terrorist loving monster the SUN and Heil nutters raged at them with, and common decency kicked in.

    It was the SUN wot won it:D

  62. Mike says:

    There is of course the very real and wonderful possibility of Rape clause Ruth as UK PM having to negotiate a deal concerning Gay rights with Arlene Foster in order to allow her to run the UK. They will have to work hand in hand on making joint legislation not only on LGBT rights but also the NI peace process and all during hostile Brexit negotiations.

    I give it a month.

  63. Stoker says:

    To all lurkers and newbies.

    The post at 11:34am is displaying the direct link to a commercial advertising con. Effijy knows this but continues to mislead and trap you all into parting with private details.

    This companies only purpose is to harvest as many details as possible to then sell them on to other companies. There are many “petitions” related to that company which have *millions* of signatures attached to them but they have achieved *nothing* They sit there waiting for thick twats to come along and promote them.

    I’ve proven, beyond doubt with evidence, on this site that the Westminster Petitions Committee does not even acknowledge these commercial cons but Effijy continues to promote them and wants you to part with private details just so Effijy can verbally slap others over the head with Av signed a petition you know..

    The only petitions that get considered are official Westminster petitions so take note and don’t trust Effijy’s approach.

  64. Giving Goose says:

    Campaigning for Westminster seats is a waste of time.

    Yes, Mairi Black said lots of good stuff and every 2nd Facebook post had a video of her or another SNP member making a speech but there is no power to change things at Westminster.

    The SNP should withdraw from Westminster.

    Get radical. Stick the 2 fingers up at London.

    Concentrate activity through Holyrood. Make it the focus of activity. By participating at Westminster you give it power over Scotland.

    So if there was a scenario where Scotland returned 59 Unionist MPs, so what? They would be powerless. If Westminster attempted a power reverse grab from Holyrood, again so what? The propaganda coup would be the SNPs.

    De-legitimise Westminster by non-participation. That would have far more impact than any number of SNPs MPs standing up and generating nice videos of speeches, which are then ignored by the MSM and Westminster anyway.

    There’s a saying – “What’s the definition of an Irisman?”

    Answer – “A Scotsman with balls.”

    Apologies to the ladies for the metaphor but it’s about time the SNP stopped playing by Westminster rules and grew a pair of balls (and backbone).

    Get smart. Get angry. Get radical

  65. IveNeverSeenBraveheart says:

    Not commented for a while, but want to chip in on this!

    I suspected we were in trouble when first of all, our MP’s re-election crowdfunding could only muster £1450 from 33 supporters. Also, our local branch has been in turmoil for the past year or so, and I have no idea what is going on there anymore.

    Last election, as an SNP member, I received an email from HQ inviting me to log on and phone up registered supporters to ensure we got out our vote. This didn’t happen this time. I think we were complacent, and coupled with the awful weather, we just did not get out our vote.

    Another thing was my parents watching the “debates” – they focused on Jeremy v Theresa and who would be best PM. I tried explaining that we don’t elect a PM, we vote for an MP, but they were of the opinion that a vote for SNP was wasted as they “won’t form the govt”! *sigh*

    I also think a lot of people were swayed by Corbyn and wanted to support him – I was in a taxi on the day of the election, and the driver was a traditional Labour voter, but had moved to the SNP around the time of the referendum. He was now undecided – he wanted to support Jeremy, but we both discussed how we could never vote for Scottish Labour. I’ve no idea how he voted in the end, but I suspect there were many like him, although the Rev’s analysis seems to discount any “Corbyn bounce”. Also interesting, as per TartanFever at 11:45am, how no-one is mentioning Kezia’s role in scuppering a Labour chance!

    My worry is now that Nicola capitulates and thinks it was fear of Indyref2 that caused the loss, and does something stupid like take it off the table. This is all we are going to hear now – we must not give in! We absolutely still have the mandate, and we need to be ready for another election come the autumn.

  66. schrodingers cat says:

    Bill McDermott
    spot on

    nicola’s position is honest and clear, efta/eea, free movement of goods and people

    treeza mays position is also honest and clear, No free movement of goods and people
    this is because she knows this is her only option,

    a GOOD DEAL would be free movement of goods and no free movement of people, but that isnt an option the eu will agree to,

    a BAD DEAL is free movement of goods and people, which would get her lynched by the electorate,

    NO DEAL is No free movement of goods and people, treezas only choice.

    corbyn is still in la la land arguing for A GOOD DEAL, which wont happen, but he is in opposition so can do this, treeza takes the blame regardless. neither can corbyn form a coalition with the snp who want free movement of goods and people.

    laughable situation but I would urge all yes supporters to take stu’s advice, sit back, have a beer and watch while westminster makes a fool of itself during the brexit negs

    9 days and counting , 🙂

  67. BenInsular says:

    Despite the closening of Labour and the Tories in the polls UK-wide in the later stages of the campaign, I find it hard to believe anybody voted with an expectation that Labour would make such a strong showing and the Tories had any prospect of being deprived of their overall majority.

    That’s bound to have affected how a number of people voted, and amplified the media-aided focus by the Unionist parties in Scotland on making it another occasion to thrash out Holyrood-related issues and the prospect of another independence referendum rather than Westminster ones.

    If there is another general election later this year (and like Stu, I find it hard to see how one can be avoided, exhausting as the prospect is – I think voter fatigue was another factor in this election, and it seems to have affected previous SNP voters most), then the dynamics will be very different. Maybe Tories will be more likely to vote Tory, Labour supporters to vote Labour, etc., SNP supporters lose any complacency resulting from the previous large swings and majorities and turn out to vote, and tactical voting will seem less appealing?

    Yes, I’m a glass half-full type.

    It should focus minds, and that and the closeness of a number of the majorities are aspects that need to be factored in to any analysis and election strategy.

    Unless Davidson manages to keep up her teflon record, the shine could come off her pretty quickly (her approval ratings did droop in the later stages with greater exposure), and I don’t know how much traction she’s going to get with her new bid to play-act that the Scottish Tories are somehow autonomous, and hence unaccountable for the shenanigans of the UK party, which seems to be imploding into incompetence, panic and backbiting as we read and write.

    She’s going to have to deliver something more than stunts and pretty speeches, and very quickly. It will be her turn to be held to account for issues beyond Holyrood.

  68. Jock McDonnell says:

    This is interesting.
    It supports what I was hearing – but not believing – on the doorsteps. The figures do endorse it. We lost support due to brexit. I had thought it was just an excuse not to vote SNP.

    It also means I think, Sturgeon defended her public services record well in the debates – there was limited slippage to Corbin. She gave it all she could – but that fabled 1/3 of SNP voters who backed brexit – voted for a brexit party.

    Anyway, as I’ve said elsewhere, a positive message can take us forward, but people will only listen to a positive message when they are in difficulty – if they are already content, they will not want change.

  69. Vegan god says:

    A few thoughts. There are a multitude of fake news site relentlessly bashing nic and the SNP. The general public gradually get influenced by the propaganda. I have female friends who went from liking to hating nic. When challenged they can barely articulate why so something is going wrong. The SNP has became the beige party. Murrell must go. There is no real connection berween the branches. In the old days they had a national organiser (my father) who spent his life on the road helping branches, sorting out problems. Clearly some of the new faces sent to Westminster were a disaster; so vetting needs looked at. E.g. the EK MP is almost universally loathed by the branch. There are reports of solid workers spoiling there voting paper ffs. Reports of young careerist, graduates in head office chill my blood. If they are anything like the graduates coming into banking we are fukd. Also have underestimated the strength of feeling re. Brexit and immigrants; that’s a tough one but needs to be handled better. There are snp supporters who read the daily mail! John Swinney is great back office guy and true gent but appearances in media should be minimal. Get tommy shepherd out front. Losing seats was inevitable, however is not a disaster but massive wakeup call. Bring an Alistair Campbell type into head office and weed out the passengers. I need to hold my handup as not having done more than give the snp cash. I get regular emails from my branch about meetingfs , leafleting etc but they do notgrabmy attention. We need a bigger social media presence, calling out the failures and misdeeds of the unionists; actively and regularly expoliiting everything. They are winning that battle…

  70. John Forbes says:

    In my constituency Rutherglen & Hamilton West an Independent candidate stood who said he had voted yes in the Independence referendum and voted leave in the European referendum which I did also. So I was tempted to vote for him, but I was worried that a vote for for him would split the vote of people who believed in Independence for Scotland and let Labour back in, so in the end I voted for the SNP.
    The Independent candidate received 300+ votes.
    Labour won with a majority of 200+ votes
    My point is you need to be smarter than only looking at the votes of the main parties it is more complicated than that.

  71. Big Jock says:

    Yep agree taking indi ref 2 off would be suicide. People need a reason to vote SNP. However I bet there are several strategists thinking there might be another election. They might think dropping indi ref 2 would help bring back the North East seats. Whatever Sturgeon decides, this could be life or slow death for the party.

    For 30 year members like me, dropping independence is the end of my voting and SNP membership. Nicole needs to remember it is people like me that have patiently waited for the opportunity. If that opportunity exists it must be used. To win elections and then drop independence is suicide.

  72. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Useful analysis. Two points. The SNP was a victim to its own strategy as its assumption that the Labour vote would remain collapsed and the SNP would get the anti Tory vote was trashed by the Corbyn bounce. But the SNP had nowhere else to go in the short timescale. SNP became bit player in a binary choice – Labour Westminster or Tory Westminster – and did not provide at all the third option – no Westminster – which is raison d’etre of the party.

    There may be short term and tasty benefits to be had in tactical voting strategies but the only way we win independence is to persuade a majority of Scots that the only important political ambition is independence and that it is not a case of one particular Westminster government being better/worse for Scotland.

    Point two – A Robertson, A Salmond, M Weir and several others represented seats in which large number of tory inclined voters have voted SNP in considerable numbers historically. They do not not now do so. We should sit back and consider whether virulently anti Tory rhetoric from the SNP all the time does anything other than insult and build anti SNP sentiment in areas we now are losing steadily. We cannot win independence on anything other than a broad base.
    And as last Thursday pointed out getting the “left wing” vote – some of the time – is too high a price to pay if it loses us other support.

    Last week I said I was buying no more Sunday Heralds. I relented and bought one today. Never again. In its editorial it actually says “The SNP allowed itself to get fixated by independence”. I had to read that again. The SNP, to my growing despair, went to huge lengths to avoid talking about independence at all. The SNP in a fact allowed its enemies to attack independence continuously and made no response.

    The rest of The Sunday Herald’s political coverage is against another referendum (ie the political objective of our enemies,now being supported by some of our “friends”. Nothing will signify their “victory” more than the SNP taking a referendum off the table ). If the SNP decides against another referendum – and last weeks result is meaningless in that context – our organisation will curl up and die. It is already deeply bored and losing enthusiasm.

    The SNP has to campaign for independence on a continuous basis – no matter what else it does.

    So it’s no more Sunday newspaper for me -and I would urge others to stop buying the weak Sunday Herald.

  73. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I cannot comment on the position across Scotland, but, with regar to the “Orange” vote in my own constituency of Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock going solidly to new MP Bill Grant – that I believe.

    I was speaking to one of the Labour Party activists at the polling station and he told me, in no uncertain terms, the “Orange” voters had all but entirely deserted the Labour Party to go to the Tories. This is a sad reflection on the state of preent-day Scotland.

    Mind you, Corri Wilson, the ousted SNP MP was one of those in the 2015 intake who failed to impress, either at Westminster or on local matters up here.

    The SNP really needs to get its act together better on the ground and in its elected representatives selection process.

  74. McBrian says:

    Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath are now firmly part of the Edinburgh commuter belt. there is also have a very high lodge and loyalist support as witnessed by the volume of buses leaving for Glasgow ever other Saturday.

  75. Big Jock says:

    Vegan I have to listen to people on a daily basis saying they don’t like Nicola. When I challenge them on why they look blankly at me. It’s an entirely media driven idea to create a hate figure. Remember Salmon. Same thing. If another leader came in same thing. The media want people to hate Snp.

  76. Sarah says:

    @FIONA TOMANY 11.47 No need to despair! There’s Stuart Hosie, Joanne Cherry, Ian Blackford for starters, not to mention Mhairi Black – all far too competent and intelligent, decent and principled for Theresa May to cope with.

    The MSM and Establishment will be quite pleased with the reactions of some Wingers – they want our heads down and us to start in-fighting. It has done the job for Labour for years.

    The SNP are the Scottish Government and have heavy responsibilities which are made heavier by having to protect us from Westminster. IMHO they have done a fantastic job [and I’m not an SNP member]. They need us all to keep laying the facts of their achievements out to everyone we meet – they don’t need us to fall for MSM lies and turn on them. A weak SNP = no independence.

    I am confident that Nicola and her team will do the right things to get us where we want to be i.e. in place to affect what happens. If the BBC hadn’t “lost” the links to Nicola’s appearance at the Irish Parliament [and to her Stanford University speech etc] the whole of Scotland would know how well-regarded she is, and deservedly so.

    What worried me was the fear that her work overload will be too much for her – at least now Alex and Angus are available to help take some of the load.

    For those saying we don’t want to be at the “Brexit table” – we DO need to be there to claim our place IN the EU, as 62% of Scotland voted to be.

  77. Pentland Firth says:

    If the SNP election campaign hadn’t been so defensive and uninspiring the voters would have been happy to wade through floods of biblical proportions to give their support. The “Stronger for Scotland” slogan was as nonsensical as the piss poor election broadcast. The whole SNP campaign was based upon the certainty of a Tory landslide in England and offered no convincing answer on how Scots voters should respond to something that in the event didn’t happen. It assumed defeat. As Hand and Shrimp said, we needed vision, and were offered none.

    When people like me have to drag themselves to the polling place to support (in my case) a rather average sitting SNP MP, you know in advance of the result being declared that the election is not going to turn out well. In the end, I wasn’t in the least surprised to find that he had lost his seat, and others had as well.

  78. Andy.D says:

    What a shit election turned me off it after about 3 weeks did not vote for the first time in local elections and nearly did not vote in the GE, why not you might ask? Nobody speaks for my politics now I am one of the 38% scots who voted to get out of the insanely expensive EU, yes I want jobs for Scots before any EU or non-Eu person, yes I want to trade with the rest of the world, yes I want to be an independent country, 2014 felt like a loss in the family. But my red line is EU membership, yip back sliding on the EU terms is coming and when it does I will never vote again. I voted for the SNP in Perth(GE) because the thought of Tories returning to Scotland makes me feel sick how can anybody vote for a party that cares for no one but the rich,another election is coming within a year. Goodbye fellow Indy supporters I’m done.

  79. mike cassidy says:

    Been having a little fun commenting on this post-mortem article.

    Feels good to point out that Ruth Davidson just keeps losing election after election!

    But the Rev will certainly want to look at the second comment.

    If that’s for real, Stephen Gethins better buy Robert Ferguson a pint or two.

  80. heedtracker says:


    Tories having a good election will focus minds in Scotland. But you can apply that across the EU. Look at how France and Austria rejected Farage style far right anti EU stuff. Its likely that Brexit really focused minds there too, certainly in Brussels.

    Look at how hard the BBC have worked to get UKIP and Farage right up to the fore front of UK political discourse.

    This is not BBC being nice and balanced ofcourse. Its a tory outfit pushing England more and more to the right, or so they thought.

    And yet its all blown up in their tory BBC face, in England and across the EU. Its easy to say JC did so well because he’s a Labour nice guy but its clear that England’s been totally creeped out by Brexit and no longer being EU citizens.

    So here we are, Teresa’s going, Bojo’s even more reactionary, even more Brit nationalist and even more dangerous to the English right.

    And its why Brexit is going to hard. All of this vote strong and stable Dear Leader England BBC stuff, is a European wide struggle against the right, and especially here in the UK.

    Soft Brexit will strengthen the right in Europe and a hard one will do the opposite. UK’s going to have to pay a very high price, for believing massed tory ranks, from likes of Jim Naughty and Nigel Farage to Brillo and Mike Gove.

  81. Effijy says:

    Stoker says:
    11 June, 2017 at 12:05 pm
    To all lurkers and newbies.
    The post at 11:34am is displaying the direct link to a commercial advertising con. Effijy knows this but continues to mislead and trap you all into parting with private details

    Stoker, you obviously don’t like any of the established petition sites, so I take it that you propose that petitions don’t express the publics opinions, or maybe you think that forming a petition site that nobody knows about would have a great degree of success?

    Can I clarify again how dangerous and pathetic these King makers are in the DUP, and how they can now influence the UK Tory government into supporting their agend.

    In a civilised society, and I’m desperate to live in one, people should not be free to persecute people of a different religion.
    Never should they be allowed to promote hate, violence or the Killing/Murder of any person.

    This seems to be applicable to UK racists who attack people who originate from anywhere other than Britain.
    This seems to apply to those who have been radicalised in UK Mosques and who want to kill off Western Societies, but the UK Government are now willing to embrace a Party of Hate, a Party who everyone knows is behind mafia type corruption, and killings.

    If you feel this petition site has motives and objectives more severe and dangerous than the DUP’s, avoid it like the plague.

    The choice is yours!

    Ever hear of anyone shot in front of their children at a supermarket by Change’s web site supporters?

  82. Terry says:

    Brexit was a massive issue for some communities – Particularly working class north east ones. Immigration came up a lot on the doors. This wasn’t a case of snp just going straight to the tories. A lot went to labour cos of their brexit stance. They’re in for a surprise. But far more didn’t bother voting. And the tories managed to hoover up the last of the unionist labour voters.

    It was a mixed bag. It was a mistake to try and underplay independence. We were perceived as more pro Europe than pro scotland.

    While I think Angus Robertson was outstanding at Westminster I voted for Tommy Shepard. We don’t retain and support volunteers and activists nearly well enough. Tommy was spot on about this. Cliques and control freakery turn people off.

    We should never have got to the situation where we lost alex – despite the demographic of the seat. Where was the passion and purpose of that campaign? We needed that and were told to turn it down. The vision and vibrancy of the yes movement was needed but we were told not to mention the I word – independence. Really? It helped us lose some great MPs.

    On a positive note I feel the support for Indy is still bubbling away. The uk is in a mess. Things will swing back our way even stronger.

  83. schrodingers cat says:

    oh oh

    Ryan Heath?Verified account @PoliticoRyan 12h12 hours ago

    EU Brexit sources tell me they think Theresa May has lost control of her govt – spoken to no-one who thinks negotiations will start Jun 19

    so what next? another delay? another election?
    the brexit negs will still need to happen and we will still have a mandate for indyref2, nothing can change that, no matter how much the yoons bleat about it on sp.
    maybe nicola should just say indyref2 is off the table until the brexit negs are completed,

    so, sept 2017 for indyref2 it is then lol

  84. Proud Cybernat says:

    Given that the DUP are (allegedly) DEMOCRATIC Unionists, I can understand Davidson’s reluctance over a deal with them because Davidson herself doesn’t like anything that is remotely ‘democratic’. In GE17 she basically asked Scots across the country to vote for her ‘N Surrender Party’ so that she can strip them of their right to vote.

    We can all heave a big sigh of relief that this jumped-up Unionist blowhard lost the election in Scotland.

    I’m quite sure though there are mibbees one or ten other things RCRuth finds unpalatable with the DUP.

  85. Jamieboy says:

    Dave McEwan Hill your 100% bang on. The strategy is flawed. If your old labour then why not vote for the real thing as its starting to emerge with Corbyn. If your conservative minded then the perception is the SNP regard you as vermin. At this rate their will be nothing left in the middle
    Independence will only come through a broad cross demographic and class based alliance based on a mutual understanding of cooperation and nationhood. Salmond knew this and understood Scottish values. The SNP has been historically clever here and was a truly national party but it’s all going peek tong now. My own branch has a wide varied stream of occupation/ income/ gender/ socially conservative/ radical left/ old labour/ green minded mix who all believe in flying the flag on top of a fully independent sovereign national parliament. How that nation will develop politically is then up for grabs but my own gut feeling is it would be a have a strong social conscience focussed on economic prosperity.

  86. Macart says:

    Neatly done and an excellent dissection.

    What strikes me though is the utter selfishness of those who swapped their allegiance to vote Tory. They live in Scotland, a predominantly pro centre, centre left, pro social justice democracy. They and their families enjoy a level of personal, institutional and services protection across the board to be found nowhere else in the UK.

    If they have their way. If their votes issue in the worst abuses of legislation and human rights the Tory manifesto alludes to. Do they think the advantages they currently enjoy as Scottish citizens will remain in place? Do they think that Tory central government legislation and ideology won’t come for them?

    In their rush to protect their yoonion, did they ever stop to ask themselves will their yoonion return the favour, or roll over them and their rights regardless?

    Mibbies they should think that one through a bit more, or mibbies they have and simply don’t give a shit. Mibbies it’ll only occur to them when that legislation pays them a visit in their own back yard.

    Mind you, by then it’ll be too late.

  87. Brian Powell says:

    I find it curious the complaints about the SNP campaign being uninspiring etc, I find most Scottish voters uninspiring. They are the most peevish, mollycoddled, unthinking anywhere.

    The whine level with a the Tory hard or soft Brexit will reach hurricane proportions. Fortunately I will be living in France, and will only hear it as a distant moaning sound.

  88. Suzanne says:

    Nicola said, time and time again, that the ScotRef would only happen after we know the results of the Brexit negotiations. The media and the unionists instead ranted on and on and on about independence, making out that Nicola was wanting Indy now. They said any vote could only come after the Brexit negotiations were clear – WHICH WAS EXACTLY what Nicola had been saying all along.

    We can carry on with keeping our presence visible with street stalls and events. Watch while the UK government ties itself into balloon animals of greater and greater complexity, and wait for the shouting to die down.

    We are a strong movement for Yes. Keep supporting our Yes movements, and the SNP if we’re supporters or members. Raise funds that we can then funnel into the Indyref campaign when the time is right. I say, don’t be down or discouraged.Keep in mind those who have fought back down the generations. We will have our Indyref and Independence is inevitable.

  89. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Terry: “on the doors…We were perceived as more pro Europe than pro Scotland.”

    Shock, horror! *faints*

    *opens one eye and stares at Rev*

  90. Angus from Angus says:

    We voted 55% to remain in Angus and it’s been safe SNP for ages. We even voted in Graeme Dey.

    It was indyref 2.

  91. Ken500 says:

    Voters in the NE were complacent and did not go out to vote. Some expect everyone else to do it for them.There is shock and disbelieve in many quarters. Anger, frustration doom and gloom. Voters and non voter regret. The majority adore Alex Salmond and appreciate everything he does for the NE and Scotland. The better governance he has brought to Scotland/UK./world. One of the best politicians in the world. Some people do not know what they have got until they lose it.

    The Tory/Unionists will reap the backlash at a later date. The Unionist political corruption in the NE will not prevail. Overall SNP and Independence support will increase. The majority are sick of May, the Tories, Unionists and Westminster.

    Just keep on voting SNP. Vote for Independence. Simple.

    The DUP have always supported the Tories at Westminster. For £Billions of support. The DUP have always ignored UK/International Law. With impunity. A bunch of criminals. Foster is a money wasting criminal. Should be in jail. Typical Unionist.

    Won’t be long before May goes. More chaos.

  92. galamcennalath says:

    The Tories expanded in Scotland for different reasons.

    However, which Tory Party had the success? Was it the No Referendum No Surrender Ruth Davidson Tory-deniers , or was it the Hard Brexit Theresa May Southern Fundimentalists.

    Probably a mix of both, and with other influences in this complicated election in Scotland. However in the NE from The Rev’s analysis it was the mainstream Brexit which dominated.

    Further south, it was the Davidson No Ref which prevailed.

    Also, if you look at the ‘Labour stand down tactical voting’, this seems most widespread in conjunction with the Davidson No Ref in southern seats with a strong Labour presence.

    No top of the above three effects, the SNP suffered with turn out down and those people who seem fluid between Labour and SNP being influenced by the Corbyn effect.

    The SNP now needs to look at each of these assaults and come up with tactics to counter each with specific tactics.

    Watched Marr this morning, which I now do rarely. I was amazed by how much chat there was about a shift from hard to soft Brexit. It was almost as if the hard we had taken as a given before the election is now unlikely.

    A soft Brexit would be best for the UK, but damaging for the SNP and the Indy cause. If the need for ScotRef as a response to an unacceptable Brexit is removed, an awful lot of voters will be wondering what the SNP is for. A safe pair of hands for a devolved government, as before, perhaps. Suddenly Labour and even the Davidson Party will look acceptable in this role to many.

    For the SNP to stay on top, and Scotland to make much needed changes, we need independence as a short term objective.

  93. Ken500 says:

    The SNP win at Westminster puts the SNP in a better position. Standing up for Scotland. Holding the balance of power in a hung Parliament.

  94. John Moss says:

    I say, don’t be down or discouraged.Keep in mind those who have fought back down the generations. We will have our Indyref and Independence is inevitable

    Quite right, let’s pick ourselves up and move on.

  95. schrodingers cat says:

    Wings Over Scotland?Verified account @WingsScotland 2h2 hours ago

    BBC pundits: “STURGEON MUST PANIC AND ACT IMMEDIATELY!” Smarter move probably just to shut up for a bit.


  96. Jock McDonnell says:

    Stu – how does this shape up in those seats we held ?
    Is the swing similarly explained ?

  97. Dan Huil says:

    I feel sorry for the EU having to negotiate with Westminster orange-order bigots. I hope the EU adds on a few more billions to Westminster’s exit bill.

    Meanwhile don’t pay the bbc tax.

  98. StubbornWestie says:

    I agree with many of the comments that the SNP campaign wasn’t as successful or forceful as many would have hoped. There was certainly a lot less pamphlets and billboards compared to 2015.

    Which got me thinking was this perhaps a deliberate action by the SNP. Have the SNP realised that even with 56 MP’s at Westminster Scotland’s voice was still ignored and they made the decision to save the limited resources they have compared to the dark money funded Tories for the bigger, more important election that is coming … Indy Ref 2 when the shambles of Brexit is obvious to all (and can’t be hidden by our “impartial” media)

    Just a thought …

  99. Ken500 says:

    UKIP and Farague have failed Lost £Billions of public in the process and tried to bring down the world economy. Mucked up their own nest. Never won an election in the UK despite the BBC. Another fail. The BBC the enemy of the people. No wonder the majority do not watch it. A £3.7Billion total waste of public money. Farague another criminal who should be in jail. That could still happen. Still investigations going on. Tax evading, public money embezzler. Master criminal.

  100. Mike Davidson says:

    I’ll make it very simple for you: voting yes in 2014 and SNP in 2015 was trendy. It isn’t trendy anymore, which is why those thousands of votes evaporated in each seat.

    You missed your window, bub.

  101. Angus k says:

    If the independence movement is going to progress it has to seriously take on the MSM. The real and valid arguments for a separate more democratic Scottish state are being drowned out by shouty pro-union rhetoric. Even when brexit kicks in and the brown stuff hits the fan you can already make up the headlines. Who is the MSM gonna blame.. well of course the SNP.

    Changing the attitude of the present MSM including the BBC, is probably an non-starter so the only alternative would be to set up seperate Scottish institutions.

    In print media – we have the ‘National’ and despite it’s excellent articles it is still only a niche newspaper. The loud SNP baad headlines shout-out-loud from the mostly English controlled tabloids. They dominate the newstands and can be seen carried under so many peoples arms. We need either the National to up-it’s-game and try and become more populist, I suppose an example would be more like the Metro, but keeping it’s editorial stance and views.

    In Broadcasting can we not at least have a Scottish independent radio station. Surely that is a posibility. Even an internet-only station would at least be something.

    We desperately need institutions to take on the English controlled MSM. It is a must to try and reach large sections of our society who are only subjected to the British state’s one-sided propaganda.

  102. Ken500 says:

    Everything is lining up just as predicted.

    Imagine Boris as PM. Shock, horror. Disgust and mistrust. The Tory rocky Horror Show. The increase in support for the SNP and Independence in Scotland. 60%++. Just imagine it. No long now. Get ready for the next Campaign.

  103. Don Mc says:

    If the goal for the Tories is simply to avoid an election in the next year or so, the simplest way to regain a majority without making suicidal deals with the DUP would be to do a Maggie T and assert that Scotland doesn’t need an indyref, it simply needs to elect a majority of nationalist MPs and, having done so twice, the voice of the people is clear and Scotland is no longer a part of the Union.

    Disaster May would probably need some convincing that this is a good thing but if her replacement is Boris, he’d easily come to believe that saving themselves the hassle of having to bargain for a good trade deal for Scottish food and drink is a great idea.

  104. heedtracker says:

    The BBC the enemy of the people.

    The BBC are the enemy of the EU Ken. They are the enemy of progressive and democracy, across the whole continent. If the BBC had succeeded just this year and got what they wanted, they would have got neo fascists like Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Austria’s neo fascist Heinz-Christian Strache into power and the destruction of the EU would follow.

    They are a neo fascist outfit and they running amok in Scotland today.

  105. Robert Graham says:

    35 beats 24 any day of the week – the union did not win they went into the election every single one of them on NO indyref2 .
    They LOST – ok we had severe casualties but are still standing .

    On a slightly different note i have heard 1966 mentioned on TV since 1966 – 51 f/n years ok we get it , now can we drop the monthly repetition its getting really bloody boring .

    A bit like the once in a generation pish get over it .

  106. Glamaig says:

    With DUP now in the spotlight, maybe this will now get more coverage

  107. heedtracker says:

    Its the BBC wot won it for Farage, here’s his reward.

    Donald Trump inauguration

    Nigel Farage plans inauguration party as Europe’s far-right leaders visit US

    Leading Brexit figure has reportedly invited hundreds of people to Washington event while Austrian politician says he is coming to city for meetings

  108. Dan Huil says:

    Don’t forget Catalonia is going to have its referendum on October 1st. Hopefully that example will put the guts back into some gutless Scots.

  109. Clapper57 says:

    Re Nicola please everyone remember that just after the Brexit vote was announced she came out the day after and gave a wonderful speech , where independence was NOT mentioned but support for EU nationals and a commitment for Scotland to stay in single market.

    On Twitter there was HUGE support for her speech , including many English people who were asking if they could come to Scotland…even some journalists were praising her response in contrast to catastrophic Tory disarray and chicken coup Labour post vote.

    When the dust settled we had the Unionists in Scotland align together to make this all about independence….long before Nicola was forced, due to UK Tory governments ignoring her pleas for assurance for Scotland to stay in single market, to announce Indy Ref2.

    We then had a media reinforcing the unionist stance and many debates where devolved issues were given prominence and unionists plants were given a platform , Nursegate at Scottish leaders debate , 2nd Tory Councillor in QT in Edinburgh forcing the message of the negativity of a neverendum Scottish Indy vote,fisherman used as willing pawns to reinforce the incorrect message that the SNP wanted the EU to control Scottish waters, giving prominence to the message that the Indy ref was ‘divisive’,promoting tactical voting highlighting areas where SNP could be ousted and last but definitely not least Ruth Davidson given undeserved praise and kudos….for what…….the ability to lie and misrepresent the facts in the knowledge that the media would support her to save the Union.

    Willie Rennie incorrectly said pre General election that Nicola had IMMEDIATELY announced Indy Ref2 just after EU vote….not challenged as untrue….Ruth allowed to reinforce the point Indy Ref2 was NOT what majority of Scots wanted…..Keiza at the back of the other two parroting their points…because Scottish Labour willing to be the Tory bitches.

    The fact that the unionists parties were allowed to portray the Indy referendum as ‘divisive’ was a liberty because it is only people who create division and if anything it is clear that the unionists certainly generate huge division in Scotland…..look at their followers on Twitter and the language and tone they adopt to save their precious union.

    I will NOT allow unionists to dictate the agenda and create division and doubt and my allegiance to Independence and the party best placed to get it, the SNP , has not and will not change.

    Never forget what the SNP have achieved in Scotland and how different our lives are to the rest of UK…do not let the Unionists diminish this because that is their sole purpose…if they can break down the faithful Indy and SNP voters then they will have truly won.I appreciate that the Yes movement is not just SNP but we have to admit that support for them in elections is the best way to get Independence.

    Onwards and upwards.Do NOT let the B**tards grind us down because we will then play straight into their hands….trust me they will be reading our posts and reveling in any dissension…..Tories stay loyal and will play down the negativity of the DUP alliance supported by …..the media.

    Keep faith …..we got 35 seats despite an onslaught of media, unionists politicians and unionist individuals infiltrating debates . Remember things change very quickly…please try and keep the heid….Nicola has served us well and is the best of a very bad bunch.

    Sorry for long post ……reading some posts last night in previous thread prompted me to write this post.

  110. Dan Huil says:

    Well said, Clapper57.

  111. Legerwood says:

    tartanfever says:
    11 June, 2017 at 11:45 am
    “”All very interesting Rev, but the important question is, how are the UK press portraying Scottish Labour’s ‘tactical vote Tory in Scotland’ which looks as though it probably cost Corbyn the election ?

    Are Owen Jones, Paul Mason, The Guardian etc not shouting it from the rooftops ?

    If we can’t even get that narrative on the front pages (National ?, Sunday Herald ?) then that should prove insightful to how impossible it is when the press close ranks.

    The headline: ‘Corbyn betrayed by Dugdale Tory Vote’ hasn’t even made the lower pages of the newspapers.””

    Maybe those columnists are not mentioning it or newspapers putting it on the front pages but what are you doing to get it in the papers?

    The online editions of these papers, and specifically the opportunity they present to give below the line comments that refute the premise of the articles and point out the omissions in their arguments and absence of facts that counter their case, are being ignored because of some belief about not contributing to their coffers.

    These sites provide an opportunity to present the facts of what is actually going on and refute the false and partial impression they are providing to their readers. The BLT route provides you to reach a much larger audience than many other routes and on a daily basis.

    Like this site the on-line newspaper sites have way more visitors than posters. So a big opportunity to reach people but one that people seem to set their face against because it will add to the revenue of the paper. So what if it advances your cause? At the same time when people start seeing factual posts it also let’s them see how the newspapers are failing them.

    People complain constantly that the SNP position, independence cause, does not get MSM exposure yet they by and large ignore the opportunity such as BLT presents to put the case and set the record straight.

    I have spent the morning on the Guardian site posting on one of the articles that supposedly analyses the election result in Scotland. Making some of the points made here.

    When posters on the Herald, and other places, make unsupported statements about the the NHS or education being rubbish index the SG and they do it all the time – I post the evidence to the contrary.

    Time to start using the access these on-line sites provide to a wider readership and inform and educate people to what is actually happening.


  112. Breeks says:

    Step 1. Court of Session. Judicial Review of Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty. Nail it to every street lamp and telegraph pole.
    Step 2. Establish Scottish News and Current affairs broadcasting. So what if it’s reserved? They reserve it using Scottish sovereignty we have “somehow” delegated to them in the first place. It’s a chain of command thing. See Step 1.
    Step 3. Plan a series of EU Summits here, in Scotland, to get the EU bigwigs and their Press media interacting with us and broadcasting from Scotland.
    The sooner we do all three, the sooner Scotland starts hearing the truth about Europe, sees the European camaraderie and vital necessity of staying in Europe, and equally, sees the morally bankrupt, disingenuous Xenophobic BritNat knuckle dragging propaganda which brought about Brexit to fruition in the first place.

    I’m going to add in a Step 4. I think the YES band needs put back together. Bigger, stronger, nicer, even more positive.. Scottish YES can invite his cousins; French YES, German YES, Italian Yes… It’s a big family, there are 27 of them.

    Come on SNP, don’t be despondent, let YES do some of the heavy lifting. The Brexit deal in all its bleak misery must not be trigger to hold our referendum, instead let it be the technical coup de grace for the Union after Scotland’s hearty decision that has already been made that Scotland is simply not leaving Europe.

    Brexit is one dimensional politics. We are in, or we are out. Sovereignty is one dimensional politics. We decide to stay in, or someone else decides we are out. There you go. That’s me spelling out the terms of Brexit for you. No need to thank me. It was easy. No need to wait 18 months either.

    If the cruel hand of Destiny intends to deny Scotland its liberty 18 month down the line, then so be it, but let us make the next 18 months that may be all we have left as true Europeans into a spectacle of joy, the brightest and most colourful showcase there ever has been for continued European citizenship.

    Are you listening Europe? Please. Come. Help us. We need your solidarity. 18 months is not very long.

    Are you listening Scottish Diaspora? Your country needs you. Support us to your own government. Prick the bubbles of UK propaganda and misinformation. Clans, Pipe Bands, Gaels, plan ahead to come and see Scotland at its best. If you don’t understand the political narrative, don’t assume, ask us. Fund us. Help us. We need your solidarity.

    Russia, China, USA, don’t be mislead into believing the emancipation of Scotland from a dysfunctional political Union is a threat to global stability. The UN will be enriched by one more voice with the courage and ideas to stand up for what is right and what is wrong. Have a little faith in us. We don’t need your solidarity, but we would welcome it anyway.

    And Scottish non believers. You are all invited too. We need your solidarity just as you and your Scotland needs ours. We are not the enemy.

  113. Onwards says:

    Zephyr says:
    11 June, 2017 at 11:47 am

    I find the direct swing from snp to tories a bit suspect. I wonder if it’s possible for there to be a two stage process. If snp voters were swayed by Corbyn but previous labour voters switched to tory that would appear as a swing from snp to tory. Unfortunately we’d need some polling data to be able to tell.

    Agreed, what looks like a straight SNP to Tory switch could be deceptive. Perhaps Brexit could make that happen, but I suspect it’s more likely to be a combination of SNP to Labour, and Labour to Tories.

    A major factor seems to be non-enthused SNP voters staying at home when a Tory victory seemed inevitable in England, so we were unlikely to achieve the balance of power anyway.

  114. Flower of Scotland says:


    Well said. I’ve been posting on Facebook and Twitter something similar, all morning.

    I really didn’t think that so many Scots were such wimps! It was always going to be a long hard road to Independence and after a bruising GE campaign and maybe another one on the horizon we have to stay strong!

    We won handsomely!

  115. Gfaetheblock says:

    Via Jamie ross’ twitter, Salmond supporting doing a deal with the DUP just two years ago.

  116. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Clapper57: “On Twitter there was HUGE support for her speech”

    Meanwhile, in the real world, that speech played its part in losing them 2/5ths of the seats they had gained only two years earlier.

  117. jfngw says:

    Many farming and fishing areas are now represented by Tories at WM, it is they who now have to deliver at Brexit. Even with DUP support the Scots Tories backing will be required. These Tories now have to defend the interest of their communities in the Brexit negotiations. It may in fact be a good thing for the SNP, if the Tories sell their voters down the river they may soon reconsider their future.

    All this is going to happen before any referendum, we can in the meantime sit and enjoy watching the Tories in turmoil. Also the Scot Gov already has a indyref vote in the bag, they can sit on this and decide to make another section 30 request at their own timing.

  118. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Good find, Gfaetheblock.

  119. colin alexander says:

    Looking back and chewing over figures is one thing, but how do we move forward?

    Slagging off the Protestant DUP for it’s beliefs / policies is not going to encourage Scottish Protestants or other Christians to vote SNP. Slagging off anybody won’t get their vote.

    Jim Sillars and Alex Neil to name two pointed out, many in Scotland who supported the SNP also support Brexit / Scexit.

    The SNPists and others on here stating their unequivocal support for the EU is dividing independists.

    We all have our own views on individual policies, but should be united on these: Scottish sovereignty / Scottish independence / Scotland’s right to self-determination.

    Back in 2014 when I campaigned for indi I used to get critics saying, it’s not independence if we are part of the EU, so I’ll vote NO, as I don’t want Scotland in the EU.

    Then, as now, the SNP suggested EU membership for Scotland was obligatory. A vote for the SNP is a vote for Scotland in the EU.

    So, people in Scotland are choosing pro-EU, pro-EFTA, pro-Brexit.
    When, the reality is, we don’t have that choice.

    Those that support Brexit may have voted Tory to show support for Brexit – as that was the Tory policy. Labour was more for EFTA /EEA. They may oppose the SNP’s pro-immigration policies too (we had foreign Islamists committing terrorist murders during the campaign).

    That’s what happens when we get into party politics. We all have our own views that don’t exactly match everything in a manifesto.

    Party politics should be for Scotland AFTER we have the power to decide these things.

    The SNP should be pro-independence / pro-Scottish sovereignty / pro-self-determination.

    All the other issues should be left to Scotland’s people to decide, once we have the power to decide.

    Unfortunately, the SNP have become a mainstream political party with policies on everything and anything. Their mainstream political policies have now overshadowed and taken precedence over the goal of Scottish sovereignty.

    Labour with Saltires.

  120. Clapper57 says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    11 June, 2017 at 2:05 pm
    @ Clapper57: “On Twitter there was HUGE support for her speech”

    “Meanwhile, in the real world, that speech played its part in losing them 2/5ths of the seats they had gained only two years earlier”.


    Really RN ? Not the subsequent events of a mass unionist media & political onslaught promoting negativity of independence and the SNP’s domestic , that is, devolved issues….hmm….sorry I beg to differ.

    Have a good day anyway RN.

  121. Richardinho says:

    I do wonder: Can it really be said that those who favour Brexit AND Scottish independence are on the same side as those of us who favour the SNP’s position (independence in Europe)?

    I personally don’t think so. Thus, I see no real value in attempting to court the former. Better to do our thing and if they want to be persuaded then they’ll be persuaded.

  122. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    “Labour with Saltires.”

    Colin, I think…I love you.

  123. Artyhetty says:

    Great article. Certainly food for thought. Next time the yoons will be even more rabidly angry and repetitive to ‘beat the SNP’. They also have MONEY behind them, big money.
    They had their soundbites and stuck to them, it’s all we heard. Perhaps we need to learn a lesson or two, from that.

    Some great comments here, will check back later.

    Mike@11.05, ypu are spot on re the criticism at the SNP for their campaign. People must remember that the media, across the board, are 100% anti SNP. They steered debate, printed lies as usual and led the campaign. The media, run by the UKgov state and others, were relentless in their ‘no more independence referendums, no one wants one in Scotland’. It was wall to wall.

    The SNP were caught in the headlights, and between a rock and hard place. Strategies to be worked on, starting now. We still won, amazingly, but a worry that next time, yet more seats will be lost due to anti SNP media onslaught. They did not run their campaign on independence and as we know, brexit was hardly mentioned by the unionists!

    Oh and I thought The National’s front page yesterday was absolutely dire. A disgrace in fact, not based on fact. The image and the headline, terrible distortion of just what the SNP has just achieved against massive odds, again, and what Scotland has achieved. No thanks.

  124. tatu3 says:

    I agree with Breeks at 1.57. Well said

  125. Nana says:

    A couple of links

    An Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Prime Minister May spoke by phone this morning.

    DUP demanding Farage be part of Brexit negotiations? If true and May agrees, she will destroy her party and destroy our country. Seems its in the Sunday times.

  126. galamcennalath says:

    As far as social attitudes go, the DUP seem to have come from the 1950s!

    Any candidate or politician in any Scottish or English party expressing similar views would be turfed out as unacceptable for this century and society.

    The more exposure the DUP get, the more people will see any agreement with the Tories as simply not on. Especially Tory supporters. It could damage the Tories enormously in future elections, which might be sooner than later.

    I confess to not knowing how extreme and outdated their social views are. I’m actually quite shocked.

  127. heedtracker says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:

    We get it, you’re a racist. Why are farting about with these silly little games you deeply creepy er, racist? Just come out and say your racist crap openly.

  128. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Clapper57

    If you look closely, I wrote ‘played its part’, but the BBC is increasingly mistrusted up here (not wholly, of course) so I think you’re overestimating its influence just a little.

    But aye, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

  129. Robert Louis says:

    If another election is called, can Labour Tories really run again with the same meaningless slogan? I doubt it.

    If we get the chance again, every single freaking member of the SNP needs to get involved directly, and that includes myself. We don’t have money, but we could have lots and lots of people.

  130. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Amazing stuff heedtracker. You down to the last options in your GCHQ disruption handbook?

    Fucking desperate melter. They’re paying you too much.

  131. Artyhetty says:

    re;Colin Alexander@2.11

    Eh? The Protestants DUP? We will need to call them out, the DUP, for their extreme views and policies. Most protestants are not obviously extremists, but the DUP look like a dangerous, undemocratic lot imo, fascists. No thanks.

    Oh and the SNP have a job indeed, to fight against horrendous tory cuts to our most vulnerable and run a government in Scotland, protecting people, mitigating tory austerity max, and keeping apace with world events, arguing that we should be included in crucial (!) to Scotland brexit talks etc. All while fighting off the anti SNP media with bells on, day in day out. Oh yes they have plenty to be getting on with!

    I was watching some shorts films on NLS image archive last night, and wondered, when did the people of Scotland start to be told and brainwashed into thinking they and their country were s***e?

    Alot of those films are about identity, some on culture, kilts n things, :-/ and industry. They promote Scotland by and large from an English point of view, so what was their aim? Did they allow Scotland to keep a sense of self and identity, so as to keep the people sweet? I just wonder, and mean no criticism on anyone by that.

  132. galamcennalath says:

    An awful lot of events could transpire over the next couple of years. So heaven knows how it will pan out.

    One scenario WE DON’T WANT is to go into the next Holyrood election with a strong Corbynist Labour and a Ruth Davidson Party dissociated further from London Toryism. These two would squeeze the SNP very heavily because each in their own way would look acceptable to a lot of voters.

    The perfect storm, from an Indy/SNP perspective is a useless Labour, a hard London Centric Tory, and a strong threat to Scotland like a Hard Brexit. Remove those, and the dream of self determination is over for decades.

  133. heedtracker says:

    “Back in 2014 when I campaigned for indi I used to get critics saying, it’s not independence if we are part of the EU, so I’ll vote NO, as I don’t want Scotland in the EU.”

    You must think we’re all morons Colin. Back in 2014, UKOK BetterTogether frauds made it perfectly clear that Scotland becoming a nation state again would mean we were out of the EU, for good.

    Look at the how BBC hammered home their vote YES 2014 Scots, and you’re out of Europe permanently.

    European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be “extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the European Union.

    Speaking to the BBC’s Andrew Marr he said an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership and get the approval of all current member states.”

    Whoever you are Colin, you’re a fcuking idiot.

  134. Anne Bruce says:

    Well, well. What a turn up for the books.

    Everybody else getting a shot at running Scotland – other than the people who live and work here.

    Hell slap it into those who brought us to this. So now we all live with 10 people from Northern Ireland running our country. They must, of course, be genetically programmed for government.

  135. Robert Louis says:

    gfaetheblock at 202pm,

    Except of course that is NOT really what Salmond said. Good old propagandist BBC.

    We need him back and active in the Scot parliament again. Too much of a talent not to.

  136. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah, strategy. Which in a way is the forward-thinking part, the constructive analysis, of criticism. So here’s one attempt, and I’m Sturgeon here.

    “We’re not going to discuss a second independence referendum at all and I won’t answer questions on it, as the UK Government is very uncertain [read – unstable] right now and we have to wait and see what happens. On top of that whatever government there is will have a budget to get through in October, and that will be difficult for it.”.

    Short and sweet, and stick to it. And that implies Indy is off the table till at least October. Stay off stupid chat shows, or refuse to answer non-relevant questions – like Indy.

    Then in September after the holidays, around the 5th, the fiscal commission releases its first paper – “Currency for an Independent Scotland” with plans for the Central Bank. Followed a month later by “Scotland’s Future Economy – an Overview”. Followed by …

    All nice and ready for the General Election in around November.

  137. gus1940 says:

    There is an on-line poll on The Courier web site which you must complete.

    It regards mandate for NC to call Indyref2 and currently stands at 4 to 1 against.

  138. ScottieDog says:

    Provided Brexit and the exit of the single market happens (which labour’s John McDonnell has just said will happen even if labour are in charge), indyref2 is still on the cards. It’s a manifesto pledge from the SNP. Of course it can be opposed by Westminster etc. So if NS really doesn’t want another indyref then Westminster provides her get out of jail free card.

    Things to consider. Referenda are different from general elections. The turnout is different, the demographic changes slightly and ALL parties focus on a single question and of course the campaigning goes way beyond party politics.

    It’s not about the SNP. NS has always said it’s about the people of Scotland and our right to choose whether or not to relinquish our EU citizenship. Surely abondoning that to minimise damage to her party is putting the party first. Yes their is a risk to her party especially if a progressive Labour Party manage to gain power but that’s politics.

    Until Scotland controls its money supply and resources we will always be marginalised.

  139. Clapper57 says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    11 June, 2017 at 2:35 pm
    @ Clapper57

    “If you look closely, I wrote ‘played its part’, but the BBC is increasingly mistrusted up here (not wholly, of course) so I think you’re overestimating its influence just a little.

    But aye, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree”.


    Yes RN we will….”But aye, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree”….thank you for your civil response.

    Have a good day.

  140. Kelpie says:

    Going a bit OT…
    Sky is reporting that the DUP has not reached agreement with the Conservatives, despite a Conservative statement saying they have. This seems to be the second time in as many days where the Tories have said, “We’ll govern with the support of the DUP.”, and the DUP has said, “Wait a minute, we haven’t actually agreed yet.”

    Given that the DUP has not managed to come to any agreement with their opposition, resulting in suspension of their devolved government, for several months how long will the Conservatives have to try to form government before someone decides the game’s a bogey and it’s Corbyn’s turn to try?

    Is there a written rule for this, or someone who gets to choose (the Queen???)?

  141. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Destroy, Deny, Degrade, Disrupt, Deceive. Heedtracker’s motto.

    You might remember heed, that a referendum on the EU was promised back in 2013, and despite claims by some in the better together campaign, the SNP were very positive about the EU. But those pesky racists being racist against their own race. Grrr.

    Colin’s real, you’re not. Fuck off.

  142. Jock McDonnell says:


    Eck ? Oh, yeah. Sooner the better.
    And Angus. We need a strong Holyrood team, always.

  143. fillofficer says:

    well, they all got together & threw everything at us saboteurs & we still won. they were pretty sure that would finally do us in. seems to me that the electorate do want another divisive referendum after all. my initial despondency at the GE result has been replaced by renewed hope that indie2 will be successful, hopefully sooner rather than later (cos i’m gettin auld)

  144. Capella says:

    @ gus1940 – probably clickbait.
    Nicola won the 2016 Holyrood election with a manifesto pledge to run a referendum if we were taken out of the EU against our will.
    She won a vote in the Scottish Parliament to run the referendum and demand a Sec 30 order.
    She won the General Election with more seats than all the opposition “No Referendum” parties put together.

    We’re going to have a referendum when the time is right.

    Could it be any clearer?

  145. heedtracker says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    11 June, 2017 at 2:58 pm
    Destroy, Deny, Degrade, Disrupt, Deceive. Heedtracker’s motto.

    Ok moron, this apparently promised Brexit ref in 2013, meant what in 2014?

    Why did BetterTogether BBC Scotland etc explain very clearly, vote NO Scots, or you’re out of Europe for good and why did Colin’s chum not vote YES, to get Scotland out of Europe, etc?

    Like I said, whatever you creeps are doing here…

  146. yesindyref2 says:

    Re DUP, some unionist on the Herald pointed out that with the DUP, there will be no cut of the winter fuel allowance, and some other thing. Basically speaking with the DUP, much of the Tory GE manifesto is dead in the water. So I agree with Colin Alexander – there is no use any sectarian OO or whatever slagging off of the DUP, Indy needs the votes of everyone in Scotland, no marginalising anyone. If the OO in Scotland decides to support Indy – Welcome to YES.

    This election means new politics in Scotland, brand new I think, as before it was one or other of the 3 unionist parties and at most 11 SNP MPs, then it was 56 SNP MPs. Now it’s a total mix.

    New politics needs new people, and I’d come out very much against Stewart Hosie as Commons Leader – he’s old politics. Whereas Tommy Shephard is new – when he got re-elected, it seemed to me the Conservative candidate was very genuine smiling and shaking his hand – she seemed to like him, even if he was the dreaded SNP.

    It’s New Politics, and New Ideas. And a New Strategy.

  147. Ken500 says:

    The black illegal Unionist funding coming through the DUP. Farague? Lining Foster/DUP pockets. Foster a criminal. Spending UK taxpayers money on illegal grotesque wasteful projects. Funding crooked schemes for the benefit of her cronies and cohorts. Wasting £Billions of public money. UK Law not enforced in NI. A Law unto themselves. Breaking UK/International Law with impunity. Bigotry, repression of rights, human rights, blantant fraud etc. The typical Unionist politician. Farague embezzling EU funding. Investigation. Still not charged. Foster embezzling EU funding?

  148. Proud Cybernat says:

    Funny how some here do not mention what Salmond actually said (after the GFA) of possibly working with Sinn Fein or DUP:

    “…if there are policies in common of course we could work with them.”

    What policies does the DUP have with the SNP? None that I can see. Ergo, on that basis, Salmond/SNP (unlike the Tories) would NOT work with them.

    If the Tories strike a deal with the DUP then it will effectively tear up the GFA as Sinn Fein simply will not countenance being ruled by the DUP from WM. The UK Gov, in striking any deal with DUP, will be seen to have shown partisan sympathies with one side rather than serving the role of honest broker they were supposed to.

    It’s a clusterf##k of monumental proportions and will see a return to The Troubles.

    Slow hand clap for those Labour voters in Scotland who voted for the Tories. This is where you have taken us. Nice one.

  149. yesindyref2 says:

    Summarising that. Bye-bye Confrontation, Hello Conciliation.

  150. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    heedtracker at 2.41

    EU? Barrosso had no locus in that issue as all of us who are intelligently informed know. Please stop treating us as idiots

  151. Bradford Millar says:

    such is their desperation to stop another referendum they know they can’t win because What has to be remembered by 2018 nearly 300k 16 & 17 year olds will be added to the electorate for Indyref2 in Scotland since 2014.

    They are part of the most pro EU demographics the under 25’s and last time round round the majority of EU citizens voted to remain in the UK that has changed since Brexit those 200k EU citizens last time round the vast majority of them voted NO this time almost all will vote YES…

    So Indyref2 is still very much winnable

  152. sinky says:

    Legerwood @ 1.54
    The voice of reason. It is misguided to boycott BBC /MSM as EVERY SNP and Yes supporter should be engaging on a regular basis by writing b calling broadcasters and posting online comments rebutting falsehoods while promoting rational case for Indy.

  153. sinky says:

    Should read writing letters even to Tory press planting seeds of doubt in their misguided believes

  154. ScottishPsyche says:

    Good Morning Scotland doing that thing this they do morning where they talk about the SNP and their support as if we cannot hear them. Going for Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell big time. Jim Sillars trying to promote Mhairi Black as he sees her as a young Margo.

    This ‘everyone hates Nicola Sturgeon’ is really gaining traction within the media but then again, it depends on who you talk to, doesn’t it? I suppose if you only talk to Jim Sillars, Alex Bell and Margaret Curran, it might seem that way.

  155. Eddie Munster says:

    The election was driven by the tories with the help of the media and the SNP got bogged down defending their record in Hollyrood and got nearly routed. They should of being pointing out the Tories shortcomings. It effectively was the indyref tactics applied to the election, keep the SNP on the back foot whilst smoothing over the car crash that was the Tory manifesto.

    Also Scotland lost because, like all Scottish teams, they didn’t play to the whistle and ended up spectating and going through the motions for the last few minutes and left themselves wide open. If they kept their head in the game, the simple defending mistake wouldn’t of cost us the game.

  156. sinky says:

    Should read writing letters even to Tory press planting seeds of doubt in their misguided beliefs

  157. Takeour blueback says:

    2 comments from close Family/Friends:

    1. It was too soon to ask for another referendum, put me off SNP that did!

    2. What have the SNP done? Absolutely nothing.

    Both people were solid yessers

    In response to both – 1. Was it too soon? I don’t think we’ll ever engage people in the same way as 2014 “Oh not again”, we need to wait until we’ve been properly wronged & people can see in their pockets how fecked we are. Everything in me is crying PISH, I WANT ONE NOW, but do we need to take a step back and look outside the box a bit?

    2. It is laughable, but of course show me somewhere where I can see what the UK gov has done to Scotland’s budget, how the UK government expected us to cut departmental equivalents and how the Scot Gov did things differently to make life better for Scots. There is an argument that these messages are not getting discussed by the SNP and highlighted how we are doing things differently & certainly with the general election, how would that change should Lab / Cons get the nod as UK Government office holders.

    I agree that YES is bigger than SNP and that we’ll need to ensure we take this chance from now until 2011, but with point 2 above, we need clearer messages from the Scottish Government & the SNP on what they are actually doing differently here from the rUK


  158. davidbsb says:

    I have encountered Labour voters who went to the Tories because ” That Corbyn’s a communist”. And I heard the IRA smearing being voiced by Orangemen at the council elections. There are complex switches going on.

    We need to stay out there campaigning. The next election is highly likely before the end of the year.

    Can I float an idea? What if the SNP agreed to remove its 35 MP’s Sinn Fein style from Westminster in return for Independence and we have no more “divisive referendums”. Everyone gets what they want. Yoons get no referendums, we get independence, Tories get strong and stable brexit without the DUP. Whats not to like ?

  159. Capella says:

    Another excellent article by Carole Cadwalladr about dark money manipulting UK elections. It may be relevant to the Scottish election becuse collusion between campaigns appears to be illegal.

    “Coordination between campaigns destroys the “level playing field” on which UK electoral law is based. It creates an unfair advantage.”

    I would put running paper candidates in order to boost vote share of another candidate “collusion”.

  160. Breeks says:


    Oh my! How crude but effective.


    Hmm. Kinda works too eh?

  161. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    I’ll take this slowly for you, heed.

    The SNP’s positive stance on Europe (Alex Salmond insisted an independent Scotland would remain in the EU) superceded the unverified claims from better together, in the minds of Colin’s anecdotal critics.

    I think that I can fathom that viewpoint and you can’t speaks volumes about either how much you’re projecting, or how much you value your creepy job.

    I, as I have said many times on here, DO NOT GIVE A FUCK about EU membership in relation to my personal life, but I did realise that by Sturgeon dogmatically telling people that we were in whether they liked it or not come independence, and giving it large on immigration being great, when just as many Scots as English polled about immigration felt it needed to be reduced, would be jaw-droppingly foolish.

    And that has made independence a more distant possibility, which makes me furious, as that’s all I care about.

    But you know this already, and I’ve just wasted my time explaining myself to a disingenuous toffee roll.

  162. Mark Russell says:

    Pick the scab that is the UK government and a whole lot of pus seeps out. What do Brexit, the DUP and a Saudi billionaire have in common??

  163. Effijy says:

    colin alexander says

    Slagging off the Protestant DUP for it’s beliefs / policies is not going to encourage Scottish Protestants or other Christians to vote SNP. Slagging off anybody won’t get their vote.

    Colin, this isn’t slagging off. Until earlier this week I had no idea about their up front statement that they HATE Catholics and Gays and Abortion and denial of Science regarding the origins of the planet.

    I want everyone to know that the Tories are willing to work with a Party complicit in murder.

    If these facts doesn’t turn people away from the Tories I don’t want them anywhere near me.

    Colin says: Jim Sillars and Alex Neil to name two pointed out, many in Scotland who supported the SNP also support Brexit / Scexit.

    Yes Colin but 62% of Scots voted to remain part of Europe so from there I don’t give a damn about 2 disgruntled former politicians or ceding to the other 38%.

  164. Mark Russell says:

    Any idea who Richard Cook or the Constitutional Research Council are that are mentioned in the Irish Times article?

  165. Takeour blueback says:

    On the back of this, I’m gonna start my New Years resolution list:

    Stop criticising MSM, we know what they are. No point in spreading tinfoil hat shite, it makes us look like amateurs.

    Going to focus on a way to spread the message of how Scotland is doing. Basic Income / Expenditure breakdowns presented in a simple understandable way for the common man (read that as thick cnuts)

    Keep the focus on the impacts a Tory government is having on Scotland. How would that be different in Indy!

    Leave the outrage at my doorstep, I don’t care what the Tories/Labour/Lib Dems are doing, we need to better it and continue being positive!

    OK, my self-pep-talk is over. I can get back doing something about it!



  166. starlaw says:

    SNP allowed themselves to get bogged down in local politics Nicola should not have been debating with the three stooges as this was a Westminster Election, should have been Angus Roberson debating other Westminster politicians.
    The campaign should have been run as a strictly Westminster job Thus cutting the three stooges completely out of it as none of them have any say in Westminster.

  167. Glamaig says:

    Capella says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:32 pm
    ‘ may be relevant to the Scottish election becuse collusion between campaigns appears to be illegal.’

    The almost identical messages from the 3 unionist parties. ‘No Indyref2’! In a GE, the parties get equal-ish coverage, so by using the same message, they get 3 times the coverage for that message.

  168. Glamaig says:

    Capella says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:32 pm
    ‘ may be relevant to the Scottish election becuse collusion between campaigns appears to be illegal.’

    The almost identical messages from the 3 unionist parties. ‘No Indyref2’! In a GE, the parties get equal-ish coverage, so by using the same message, they get 3 times the coverage for that message. Collusion.

  169. schrodingers cat says:

    stay in the eu……..mmmm, bit of a non arguement since in a few weeks we will be out of the eu.

    the arguement must surely be, re-join the eu?

    nicola has a mandate to join efta/eea with a yes vote in indyref2, but any further integration with the eu would need to be mandated by another euref

    this can only happen after we have negotiated our departure from the uk with westminster. it is now irrelevant to the indy debate

  170. Graeme says:

    Eddie Munster says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:19 pm

    Also Scotland lost because, like all Scottish teams, they didn’t play to the whistle and ended up spectating and going through the motions for the last few minutes and left themselves wide open. If they kept their head in the game, the simple defending mistake wouldn’t of cost us the game.

    You’re right Scotland are so predictable when that second free kick went into the back of the net making it 2-1 in the 90th minute The first thing I thought was with a bit of luck we could get a draw here

    There’s no nation in the world can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory quite like Scotland


  171. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    And heed, what effect does a referendum to decide EU membership announced and drafted BEFORE a referendum on independence takes place, where the party campaigning for independence insists they are staying in the EU with no guarantee (AFAIK) of a separate referendum on EU membership, have on the minds of some anti-EU Scots?

    Don’t be thick around me.

  172. Free Scotland says:

    In 2014, the SNP had just 6 MPs and support for independence was 45%.

  173. schrodingers cat says:

    Effijy says:
    Yes Colin but 62% of Scots voted to remain part of Europe so from there I don’t give a damn about 2 disgruntled former politicians or ceding to the other 38%.

    true, but we voted to retain the uk membership deal, which is now gone, even for the uk.

    nicola has a mandate for efta/eea, this is explicit in the 62% vote

    she also has a mandate to negotiate a deal which includes the uk opt outs (all 4 of them) and the UK rebate (at least an 8.4% cut of it)

    any other deal eg, swedish type eu membership without the euro or french type membership with the euro) , nicola will need to ask the scottish electorate to approve such a deal. she doesnt have a mandate to agree either of those 2 membership options.

    in a few weeks, when the uk formally leaves the eu without a deal, it will become very obvious what leaving the single market actually means, ie wto rules, any indyref will need to secure efta/eea membership immediately after a yes vote, to secure and prevent further damage to an independent scottish economy. nicola has a mandate to do that.

    the question of eu membership has nothing to do with the yes movement, it is an issue which can now only be addressed once we are independent

  174. yesindyref2 says:

    @Takeour blueback
    With all these bloody elections, I’ve been going over the top, specially recently with the anti-Tory thing.

    Well, that stops. Back to humour and sensible postings!

  175. Dan Huil says:

    All we need now is for one of the “royal” family to kick the bucket.

  176. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, and I still think there’s a good chance of Indy Ref 2 (not the stupid New Referendum or whatever it was arrogantly renamed as), in Spring of 2019.

    Brexit is still happening.

  177. schrodingers cat says:

    starlaw says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:45 pm

    SNP allowed themselves to get bogged down in local politics Nicola should not have been debating with the three stooges as this was a Westminster Election,

    true, but it is the yoon media and yoons who set the agenda. you could argue all parties did the same, all avoided discussing brexit, corbyns manifesto concentrated on local issues llike uni fees etc.

    in 9 days time, we will finally get clarity on brexit.
    until then, we cant even issue scotlands future2,

  178. archieologist says:

    How do we go FORWARD ?

    If there is a second general election this year, with a re -invigourated Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, Labour will be hoping to gain more seats from the SNP . How do we halt that ?

    If there is no Indy Ref 2 before the next Holyrood election there may not be an SNP – Greens majority in a future parliament. Remember that the SNP will have been in power for years and eventually people like a change.

    Despite loosing seats the SNP are still the largest ” Scottish ” Party with 35 and are still the Scottish Government.Do they now come out fighting for Indy Ref 2and take the fight to the unionists. Let it rest quietly for a while or put it on the back burner?

    Bearing in mind that not all supporters of Indy want to be part of the EU , do we need clarity on whether an Independent Scotland should be part of EFTA or the EU

  179. Gfaetheblock says:

    Robert Louis at 1445

    Except that is what he did say, using his own words from his own mouth.

  180. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    If you try to engage me again heedtracker, and I suddenly remember what you are and stop myself from wasting time, take this stock statement as my reply to whatever melted shit comes out your half-filled brainpan:

    ‘Yes, mate. Whatever you say, mate. 🙂 ‘

  181. Capella says:

    I voted to stay in the EU and so did 62% of Scottish voters. That’s what was on the referendum ballot paper.
    If the UK is going to leave the EU (and that is still not quite finally decided) then I would leave the UK and stay in the EU.
    That’s why Nicola is offering a vote at the end of the BREXIT negotiations, scheduled for October 2018 – spring 2019.

    Of course, I’m in favour of independence anyway. Independence in Europe has been a central plank of SNP policy for as long as I can remember.

  182. starlaw says:

    yoons and media did set the agenda but they would have been left looking gie foolish talking to themselves if the SNP did not rise to it

  183. bjsalba says:

    This has recently been announced:

    A96 Aberdeen – Inverness

    Perhaps in the light of the GE vote the Scottish Government should consider its priorities.

    The A82 Fort William – Inverness might be a better target for their funding.

  184. schrodingers cat says:

    do we need clarity on whether an Independent Scotland should be part of EFTA or the EU

    after a yes vote, immediate request (and acceptance) for efta/eea membership. to protect and reverse the effects of leaving the single market that brexit will bring.

    nicola has a mandate to do this.

    any further eu integration will be decided by euref2 in a independent scotland

    so in answer to your question….. once independent, defo efta/eea and eu membership if the people want it

  185. schrodingers cat says:

    Capella says:
    11 June, 2017 at 4:09 pm

    I voted to stay in the EU and so did 62% of Scottish voters. That’s what was on the referendum ballot paper.
    If the UK is going to leave the EU (and that is still not quite finally decided) then I would leave the UK and stay in the EU.
    That’s why Nicola is offering a vote at the end of the BREXIT negotiations, scheduled for October 2018 – spring 2019.


    if treeza walks out in sept, (the end of brexit)which most people believe will happen, we will be out of the eu
    how can we have a ref to stay in?

    the eu have already said an indy scotland would need to rejoin via article 49. this is for obvious reasons, if we stayed under article 50, we would be doing so as successor state and would be entitled to the fuk opt outs and rebate. not even the uk would get those now if we decided to stay.

  186. K1 says:

    I see what you’re saying here RN, but if staying in the EU superseded BT’s ‘you’re out if ye vote No’, that may well explain those who don’t want to be in the EU voting No in 2014, Yes?

    But, 56 SNP MP’s in 2015 says what in terms of the EU issue in Scotland? It was known that Cameron was going to offer the ref on EU, think that went some way toward them getting back in with a majority (small) in GE15. And many have speculated that it was ‘the vow’ being honoured that pushed SNP numbers rather than EU issues?

    So then we have the EU ref, and if according to your own logic that there is a big problem in Scotland regarding immigration etc, how did we manage to get that 62% remain vote? You say Nicola ‘dogmatically’ told people they were in whether they liked it or not, but that’s not quite accurate, is it?

    On the morning after, at the press conference she more or less reassured our EU Nationals and said she’d fight like fuck for the Scottish vote to be taken into consideration and that the vote was a clear indication that we wanted to stay in the EU. Since then, how else was she going to address this in the face of the constant badgering as the msm went into overdrive about ‘snp voters backed leave’ et al! How could she not stick to her guns, oh and of course DugDav backed her in her approach at the time too?

    She couldn’t say, when badgered repeatedly ‘naw, we’ll get our independence first then have a vote on the EU issue after’ as by that point she was on a parliament backed mission to suss out every position possible to see if we could stay in, bar being independent. Why would we work so hard to get assistance from those that have a say on those matters, in Europe and then go on the telly and say ‘well actually we’re having another vote of EU immediately we become independent’?

    So I don’t understand the use of the term ‘dogmatically’ applied to Nicola in this context and I don’t see how 38% is now the new majority when it comes to the narrative of the EU situation, in Scotland. I do agree that this does have to be addressed, on reflection with Stu’s numbers above bearing this out, yes some of the areas captured by the Tory vote do seem to fit in with this theory that the majority ‘leave’ areas have gone wi the Tories.

    So I’m not at all sure where the ‘immigration’ issue is borne out in your analysis? No one was ‘giving it large’, we were stating a verifiable fact, we’re an outward looking country and we need immigration especially as our population ages,’hard’ Brexit threatens that RN? That’s indisputable.

    And as May ‘was’ going for hard Brexit, and now that Ruthie has gained monumental status boost on the back of 13 seats, she’s now calling for ‘soft’ Brexit, cause even she knows we need immigration in Scotland RN. It’s ecomomimcs. So effectively Davidson is claiming Nicola’s ground on the EU issue RN?

    This GE17(1) vote hasn’t decreased support for independence RN. So don’t really understand why ‘independence is a more distant possibility’ on the back of this vote?

    The SNP won. And I’ve absolutely no doubt we will win GE17(2) also. Just ma tuppeny worth.

  187. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 12:14:

    nicola’s position is honest and clear, efta/eea, …

    There you go again, putting words in Nicola’s mouth. I saw her interview with Brillo, and when she was directly confronted about that issue, made it perfectly and unambiguously clear that she supported full EU membership, not anything less.

    Her position is honest and clear, which unfortunately your repeated misrepresentation of her ISN’T.

    Have the guts to speak for your own preferences, not keep falsely pretending that they’re someone else’s.

  188. geeo says:

    I despair at times.

    Talk of future WM elections and Holyrood elections and new mandates and tactics etc…

    Get tae fuck.

    Worse case scenario, there will be another GeneralElection

  189. yesindyref2 says:

    Remember the old adage – a positive campaign wins over a negative campaign, but if both are negative the worst one wins. Also as Starlaw says basically. We should have ignored the jibes or just said “No”.

    Anyway, I was anlaysing my performance on the H and the T during these last two flaming elections, and I’ve been very anti-Tory, and I think by doing that I may have played my little part in helping the Tories get elected.

    No more, I’m not playing their game.

    It’s *hug-a-Tory* time again!

    Mmm …

  190. heedtracker says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:12 pm
    heedtracker at 2.41

    EU? Barrosso had no locus in that issue as all of us who are intelligently informed know. Please stop treating us as idiots

    I’m not! The Marr/Barrosso vote NO or you’re out stuff is an example of how BBC attack propaganda worked and continues to. And the rest is pretty clear.

    Dave, no doubt there were some ref voters who were thinking stuff like, in 2014…

    “I want Scottish independence and I want out of the EU and I know that Scottish indy means we are out of the EU, BBC says so, so yay!

    But wait. I wont vote YES to get Scotland out of the EU permanently in 2014. Instead I will vote NO, then I’ll wait and vote Leave, in the coming EU Brexit referendum, to be held in 2016.

    I know there is definitely going to be a Brexit referendum in 2016, because PM Cameron says so and then I can vote Leave, because PM David Cameron is definitely going to win the 2015 General Election and I know this because..”

    Just keep telling us what newspapers we should be buying Dave. You’re not that consistent in your instructions but its fun to watch:D

  191. yesindyref2 says:

    H and N, not T! Just goes to show, I’m not all here at the moment, I’m all over the place. Just like all of us!

  192. heedtracker says:

    Dan Huil says:
    11 June, 2017 at 4:02 pm
    All we need now is for one of the “royal” family to kick the bucket.

    Falklands war 2, would also be extremely helpful.

  193. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Capella at 3.32

    Needs a very serious look at. There has been a hugely financed London organised plot against the SNP which predates the council elections and it has been on the drawing board for some time.

  194. geeo says:

    I despair at times.

    Talk of future WM elections and Holyrood elections and new mandates and tactics etc…

    Get tae fuck.

    Worse case scenario, there will be another General Election before the brexit deal is known.

    So what ?

    Referendum mandates are neither won nor lost at a General Election.

    There will not be a Holyrood election before the brexit deal is known, nor before we leave in march 2019.

    So, the 2016 mandate stands 100%.

    Stop pissing your knockers and drive THAT message home.

    Nothing changed as a result of this snap election for the indy cause, certainly not on a legal footing.

    Can we stop being pussies please ?

  195. Breeks says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:34 pm

    If Scotland, or more concisely the SNP, steps away from backing Scotland in Europe, then you not only doom Scotland to the primary disaster of actually exiting Europe, (ok, you don’t care about that), but you also forfeit the anti Brexit mandate given to you by the Scottish electorate voting remain in the Brexit referendum, and when you forfeit that, you forfeit the material change of circumstances which technically mandates the ScotRef referendum.

    If you are a Scot who wants independence but exit from Europe, you are the simply the other side coin from a Scot who wants the Union but also wants to stay in Europe. That’s Kezia Dugdale “have your cake and eat it” territory. Nobody can square that circle for you.

    Which is more important to you, Scottish Independence or exit from Europe?

    If it’s Scottish Independence, then why undermine the mandate for holding ScotRef which Brexit is giving us by arguing “actually, Brexit is fine with me”.

    If your priority is exiting Europe, then switch over to Unionism, so you can grumble and be divisive within their campaign because it doesn’t accommodate your “other” preferred option of Independence. It’s the same difference as grumbling and being divisive in our Independence campaign because it doesn’t accommodate your desire to be exiting Europe. Go disrupt the Unionist campaign and let ours flourish.

    Here’s a wee thought for you however, if Scotland does win independence, and we suppose you still wanted to lobby for an EU membership referendum. If you can make the case for one, then democratically, I believe you stand a very good chance of getting one. It’s a rational argument to hold, and off course, Scottish Independence would represent significant change of circumstances making the Brexit referendum obsolete. We shall be on opposite sides, but hey, let’s do it.

    If Scotland does not win independence however, then by the same token as above, to find happiness and closure, you will find yourself lobbying inside the Brexited UK for another Scottish Independence referendum. You can ask Ruth Davidson about that of course, but I rather suspect that campaign to have one probably won’t turn out so well.

  196. Breeks says:

    Dammit… forgot the sig. catchphrase at the bottom…


  197. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 12:24,

    Excellent posting, Dave. I especially agree with your “broad base” argument. Indy can only win by taking people of all persuasions with it. It’s not just party-political either, it’s also rural vs urban.

    The LibDems in particular have been mendaciously asserting a “central belt bias” for a long time now and I fear it has taken root in rural areas. The myth (or reality, whichever) must be addressed.

  198. BJ says:

    In the early hours of Friday morning I found it hard to be positive. It felt like Sept 19.

    Since then I’ve realised this is still a very positive result and can be built on. I remembered the thousands in the SECC after the referendum who lifted all our spirits. Nicola, we need another rally like that. Listening to all the guff over the weekend only strengthens my belief that I don’t think like them, I don’t ever want to be like them.

    Thanks Stu for everything you do. We think we are right, we know we are right, we are right !!

  199. heedtracker says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:51 pm
    And heed, what effect does a referendum to decide EU membership announced and drafted BEFORE a referendum on independence takes place, where the party campaigning for independence insists they are staying in the EU with no guarantee (AFAIK) of a separate referendum on EU membership, have on the minds of some anti-EU Scots?

    Don’t be thick around me”

    I dont know what you’re playing at on here but, slowly and clearly,

    “a referendum to decide EU membership announced and drafted BEFORE a referendum on independence takes place”

    means absolutely zip because no one knew the outcome of the 2015 GE, in 2014. If anything, it looked like the tories were going to lose the 2015 GE and Labour were certainly not going to hold a Brexit ref in 2016.

    Before you come on here, could you at least look at a calendar and wiki, for the UK politics timeline, you fcukwit.

  200. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ K1

    You didn’t see where she was giving it large on immigration? The SNP losing 2/5ths of its seats doesn’t decrease support for independence, their raison d’etre?

    I’m lost for words on that.

    But, I’m glad you think the EU issue needs to be addressed, that’s enough for me – I understand loads of people want to stay in. I’ve gone waaayyy overboard with trying to address this on here in part because I’m angry, but also it seems loads of commenters here go out of their way not to mention it. It’s been creeping me out.

    But aye, I think it’s time for me to leave it (not that you asked for me to do that of course). Take a couple of days break and come back when I’ve something constructive to add. D’you think I don’t know I’m coming across as a bigoted, super-cunty version of Rock?

    Anyway, cheers for your tuppence-worth.

  201. colin alexander says:

    The SNP can never win UK GE’s. The best it could come up with was: vote for us and we’ll support Corbyn’s Labour better than SLab would. SLab stymied that one for the SNP and UK Labour with their, vote Tory mantra.

    Looking forward, if the SNP stick with indi-ref at the UK Govt’s time of choosing, till after Brexit, Brexit could / will drag out to past the Scot Govt election date.

    As things stand, the SNP won’t get enough votes for a majority or minority + Greens to form a majority. Goodbye indi-ref2.

    To call it early they seek UK Govt approval. Courts have never decided if the Scot Govt could have an indi-ref. A court case would also probably be dragged out anyway. Again too late.

    Also, support for YES is NOT at a winning level. Going too early or trying to hang on with current strategy both look like failures.

    Labour will probably again offer increased devolution on WM’s terms- with some EU powers offered to Holyrood. Likewise the Tories.

    The SNP could say:

    1. We support independence, but need to be able to know the options to give a fair choice. We don’t yet know what those options will be.

    2. Scotland must have the right to choose whether it wants Home Rule / independence / in or out the EU. Which powers go to Holyrood or WM etc etc

    3. So, before anything else: Holyrood must be empowered to decide on Scottish matters – all Scottish matters. Holyrood must be made sovereign.

    4. Mr Corbyn might go for that. SLab would find it hard to oppose that, if the SNP said: the referendum plan is dropped for this Scot Govt term if Holyrood is made sovereign. SLab would not be opposing independence but Scottish sovereignty.

    5. The SNP would not be dropping independence, but saying, empower Scotland to decide, and let them choose in the future, not now. It’s a compromise that could work.

    6. A Tory Govt will oppose that. No deals. The DUP are also hardline Unionists, but do they want hard Brexit? I don’t think so. Hard Brexit would damage N.Ireland economically and socially. Politically it could re-ignite The Troubles.

    7. It seems the SNP have two choices: an all out gamble pushing for indi-ref. All or nothing.


    8. Seek to strengthen the Scottish Parliament. Make it sovereign. So Scotland is empowered to reject any bad Brexit deal and choose what’s best for Scotland in the future: Home Rule / Indi or whatever. That to me looks the best choice.

    9. It’s a step forward. It’s a safer bet. For moderate unionists who favour Home Rule it’s their ideal. For independists, it empowers Scotland to have the ability to achieve self-determination: Independence if people choose it – at a later date.

  202. Capella says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill – a Public Inquiry is being called for by Stephen Kinnock. We should endorse that at least but some real digging into the data in Scotland is required. Carole Cadwalladr is doing a great job so far. We could all check out our own constituencies for strange changes in votes.

    I feel that the messages circulating about Nicola being unpopular, Scotland wanting out of the EU, people not wanting a referendum etc are part of a covert campaign run by the BBC and others. By covert, I mean that they do not make clear where these opinions are generated. Remember the Vote No Borders false campaign financed secretly by a wealthy businessman but promoted by a well known BBC presenter, Gavin Esler, as if it was objective news.

    @ Shrodingers cat – if Treeza walks out of BREXIT negotiations suddenly then I would expect Nicola to have a holding arrangement with the EU until an independence referendum could be run – under strict OCSE observation. I recall such an arrangement has already been confirmed by an EU spokesperson.

  203. schrodingers cat says:

    so what if nicola says she wants to be in the eu, so do i, it is the snp’s position now for years.

    but i also wanted to stay in the eu…….except in 2 weeks we will in all probability be out.

    the question is, how do we go about rejoining,

    1. a yes in indyref2 and immediate efta/eea membership
    2. negotiate our departure from the uk
    3. new holyrood election, it will be about time to hold one anyway
    4. parties put forward manifestos in an independent scotland for the 1st time
    5. snp propose euref on further eu integration

    alex thinks it is about the single market

  204. Lochside says:

    The real irony of all this is that the SNP and AS made the cardinal error of trying to shift our sovereignty to being based on Holyrood. hence the Edinburgh Agreement. I didn’t accept it at the time and questioned the reasoning ever since.

    For the past three centuries our representatives were in the House of Commons. During the terrible SLAB hegemony years of 80’s and 90’s we endured the ‘feeble fifty’ and I urged soon to be senior SLAB MPs and leaders to join the handful of SNP and vote for Independence to give us the mandate …then requiring a majority number of 37 MPS voting for Independence out of 72 Scottish MPs.

    Even Thatcher accepted that would be a mandate. And under the only piece of legislation that mattered…the 1707 Act of Union…we had the legal and moral right to do so. Ironically, now we are fettered by the ludicrous situation of a kid on Hollyrood ‘parish pump’ assembly and unable…even now with a clear majority of MPs from claiming our sovereign right to separate from the oppressive ‘union’.

    We must now acknowledge the mistake make constitutionally of using Holyrood as the basis for our fight.Play the bogus Supreme Court and the Westminster shysters at their own game. State that Scotland’s sovereignty resides at Westminster via our MPs and that as evidence by the Articles of 1706/7 our Representatives soley have the authority to dissolve this pernicious Union.

    First past the post of 30 seats is a majority and bypasses all the soul searching of counting up binary numbers. The SNP should stand for Independence alone…no more managerial guff. get the majority principle of MPs and our Sovereignty invested in the representatives who represent us at Westminster, only as long as we decree and vote for it.

    We have bought into the plebiscite con. One which we will always struggle to beat. The 1979 Ref should have taught us that…remember they counted the dead as ‘Nos’, and although we had a majority, we had to wait another twenty years.

    Surely, there is no legislation that can deny us defaulting back to the pre 1999 situation? We could maybe demand our 6000 square miles of maritime territory back at the same time. We should take the initiative before the Unionists try to close down Hollyrood and rewrite the constitution first.

  205. Legerwood says:

    Has any one noticed that in all the sound and fury being generated over this election result in the UK that Russia has never been mentioned as a possible meddler in the process.

    This truly is a 100%, Made in Britain f*ck up.

    No Russian hackers required. Probably enjoying some R&R on the Black Sea. Wonder when they will stop laughing?

    Slinky @ 3.14 Thank you.

  206. heedtracker says:

    But aye, I think it’s time for me to leave it (not that you asked for me to do that of course). Take a couple of days break and come back when I’ve something constructive to add.”

    Awe. But surely you’re going to tell us all how you knew the outcome of the 2015 GE, way back in 2013 or even 2014, way back in 2013, so that you can then tell us,

    “what effect does a referendum to decide EU membership announced and drafted BEFORE a referendum on independence takes place,”

    What a fool.

  207. Legerwood says:

    A lot of talk about the EU and Independence and being in the EU is not independence.

    Simple, but telling point: In our union within the UK we have to ask permission to hold a referendum about leaving.

    In the European Union we would not have to ask anyone’s permission to hold a referendum about leaving.

    That is Independence in Europe 101.

  208. schrodingers cat says:

    @ Shrodingers cat – if Treeza walks out of BREXIT negotiations suddenly then I would expect Nicola to have a holding arrangement with the EU until an independence referendum could be run – under strict OCSE observation. I recall such an arrangement has already been confirmed by an EU spokesperson.

    really? link?

    i can give you 2 links from the eu personel responsable for such announcements that an indy scotland will need to rejoin via article 49 as a new member state and 1 link from a senior german mep saying it will be a very accelerated process.

  209. Abulhaq says:

    and where does all this leave independence, the only thing that actually matters. Can the SNP, as currently constituted be trusted with it? Provided the party smartens up and sharpens up its act, of course it can.
    The independence cause needs sophisticated media. We all know that. So more cooperation? In that the SNP could start with being less sniffy about alt.indy. They’ve just demonstrated that they don’t have all the answers and it’s not at all amusing to behold.

  210. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Heed, you’ve been away a while so I presume it took you a bit to find the tenuous info that allowed you to claim the prospect of an EU ref had no effect on the electorate whatsoever because no one can tell the future or something, and apparently everyone thought Labour was going to win in 2014, not merely the polls in 2015.

    But clearly you’ve been feverishly checking calendars and wiki to the point that you’re confident that it’s made your stance the winner. *Good* for you. So that proves, beyond a doubt, that the people Colin met were in fact a fiction.

    Now please, fuck off you neglected nappy. You’ve gone and made me waste too much time to score a worthless internet point.

  211. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Heedtracker, you’re the one who said that it looked like Labour were going to win the GE, not me. You’ve just taken the piss out of yourself. 😀

    I can’t believe this Cheltenham gimp.

    But you know what – have the last word ya tosser…go on

  212. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Reluctant Nationalist @ 17:19,

    The only person wasting valuable space in this interesting thread with your unrelenting know-it-all negativity is you. I suggest you take your own advice in that last para there, you arrogant sod, and GTF.

  213. Robert Graham says:

    O/T – u/tube , there used to be a few sites anti SNP – Scott Arthur-Blighty tv etc, since the election we now have a distinct mushroom effect every single clip on anything about the SNP is accompanied by bile and abuse , the amount of abuse Nicola Sturgeon gets is way over the top and far beyond accepted limits , this isn’t happening by chance, this is being directed by someone or some organisation, I wonder who ? Nothing to do with the British establishment via the Scotland office , this lot have endless funds when they perceive a threat, do we really scare them that much, does our endeavour for self government threaten their very existence, maybe if the Scottish government started rattling the bars of this cage they might provoke a reaction, they only respect power, in this confused time maybe a little mischief make it difficult to govern , like not following Tory government requests or requirements to the letter , gum up the works .Just like the opposition parties are doing here with their endless bloody FOI requests .

  214. Shinty says:

    Dan Huil says:
    11 June, 2017 at 4:02 pm
    All we need now is for one of the “royal” family to kick the bucket.

    Funnily enough, was just thinking about that this morning.

    Bound to happen just before our during Scotref, the establishment will make sure of that.

    You can be damned sure there will be a ‘magic money tree’ for all the palava. Daily Mail sales will go through the roof for months.

  215. harry mcaye says:

    My random thoughts:

    Holyrood elections are far more important to the SNP and the independence cause. Nicola should stress that whether there is another indyref or not is decided at Holyrood, through our manifesto and then votes in the chamber. We still have a mandate for another indyref.

    Pulling out of Westminster, while appealing to the romantic in me, would play horribly across Scotland. Media would have a field day – “SNP Tantrums” “SNP run away from fight”

    If there is another election this year, we need fewer leaflets from our candidates (we got four, two would have done) and more info about what are reserved and devolved issues and what a fucking mess Westminster has made of Scotland, the reneging on renewable subsidies, SNP spending millions to mitigate their worst policies etc. (applies to campaigning pre-Holyrood in 2021 too)

    A feature showing all the successful small European nations, who don’t have oil or whisky but manage being independent. Still far too many folk have the “too wee” mindset. As someone else suggested, a booklet going to every home. Perhaps some of the best “Journey to Yes” vids could be put on a DVD and distributed to as many homes as possible (crowdfunding probably needed). We have the money for expensive PPBs after all, which brings me to…

    Get your act together with your Party Political Broadcasts!!! The one on the eve of the vote was toe-curlingly awful, just a load of weans and sentimental music, no message. Smacked of a party with too much money, happy to put out some arty farty nonsense that would win over nobody. Get Nicola in there, front and centre, with a strong, positive message.

    I notice the fundraiser on for another indyref has now disappeared. The last total I had was £481,749 with 22 days to reach a million. I assume that money will be put to good use eventually. Anyone that says the SNP is short of cash should remember this.

  216. colin Alexander says:

    Effijy@3:40 pm That’s your prerogative. You may not care about the 38% who voted Brexit in Scotland, but many of them are also Scottish independence supporters. YES can’t win if that anti-EU sentiment is disregarded / alienated.

    My opinion is that when all facts are known AND Scotland is empowered to be able to choose, that Scotland has it’s own multiple choice referendum regarding the EU/EFTA or any other options available at the time. That way all are given a fair say.

  217. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    harry mcaye @ 17:46:

    If there is another election this year, we need … more info about what are reserved and devolved issues and what a f**king mess Westminster has made of Scotland, the reneging on renewable subsidies, SNP spending millions to mitigate their worst policies etc.

    Some good thoughts there, Harry. The SNP were well and truly sandbagged over that last time, with the suspected active connivance of the BBC, but they will surely (have to) learn that lesson for next time.

    But a traditional UKGE is always a hard row to hoe, with virtually all the media attention going to the two main English parties. The very reason we want to leave, in fact.

    Now we face the even less appealing prospect of the 35 SNP MPs (not to mention the 24 other Scots MPs) being totally over-ruled in London by 10 real extremist DUPs from NI. I mean, what a democratic farce is that…?

  218. Stoker says:

    Effijy (12:41 pm):

    I’ve now twice attempted to respond to you but both posts have been binned.

    The first was a reasonably lengthy reply addressing the utter rubbish you wrote but i included a Youtube link in my reply and made the basic error of forgetting to remove the first 8 characters of the Youtube link.

    The second was somewhat shorter, letting you know my previous mistake and that i would try again later because i was away to do some therapeutic grass trimming with a pair of scissors. In that 2nd post i wrote the first 8 characters to explain to you the mistake i made but that reply was also binned.

    I’m not in the mood to waste any more time repeating facts to someone who should know better and who has had those facts explained to them numerous times over. Jeez, with people like you on-board is it any wonder why we’re not getting our messages across to non-believers?

    So, instead of wasting my time stuck in a rut with you i’ll just refer you back to my original post at 12:05 pm. All that needs to be said is contained within that post, no-matter how much you want to try and justify your actions by churning out a sack of steaming waffling dung.

    Commercial petition sites are cons set up to harvest peoples private details for marketing purposes and they’re not even considered by Westminster’s Petition Committee – FACT!

    Westminster’s Petition Committee only recognise and consider official Westminster petitions – FACT!

    No amount of waffling justification can circumvent those 2 facts.

  219. schrodingers cat says:

    colin Alexander says:

    My opinion is that when all facts are known AND Scotland is empowered to be able to choose, that Scotland has it’s own multiple choice referendum regarding the EU/EFTA or any other options available at the time.

    the 62% remain vote gives nicola the mandate from a yes in indyref2 to join efta/eea

    i think confusing the eu with indy in the same referendum is a bad idea.

    i dont think the snp is changing policy, it is the ground upon which we are standing which is changing
    eg, we are campaigning to STAY in the EU, if treeza walks in 2 weeks and we are officially out of the EU, we need to change our campaign to at least RE-JOIN the EU ???

    does this constitue a change in snp policy?, in a sense yes it does, but circumstance and logic dicate we have no choice???

  220. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    colin Alexander @ 17:58,

    Oh dear, here comes the diversion once again. A multi-option referendum is just dangerous nonsense. BritNat divide-and-rule made manifest. A campaign with people arguing this-and-that all over the place, so much confusing white noise, with the utterly predictable consequence that people will get so confused that they will stick with the familiar and vote to stay in the UK.

    I don’t understand the thinking behind those who claim to support independence out of the EU, but somehow imagine that voting to stay in the UK will somehow magically achieve the very opposite. It never will.

    The only thing that matters is independence. The rest can wait. Arguing for anything else around the fringes just confuses the issue and is either stupidly disingenuous at best or intentionally damaging at worst.

    If you really believe in independence, you don’t put qualifications on it.

    After independence you can always, as a sovereign country, leave the EU at any time if you can raise enough support for the proposition. Something we cannot do at the moment to get free of the UK. Which is merely stating the obvious. This false equivalencing is just so staringly incorrect that it’s laughable. You really have to wonder at the motives of those who claim to support indy yet seem so very desperate to depend on the UK to trample all over the clear mandate delivered in 2016. Misguided, craven or devious, take your pick.

    This endless conditionality has to stop.

    Independence, no more, no less.

  221. colin Alexander says:

    For those indignant at the DUP’s policies, maybe you would have a more fundamentalist belief system too,if you had lived most of your life wondering if you and your family will be shot or blown up today.

    If anyone thinks the Tories give a monkeys about DUP “extremism”. We are talking about a Tory Govt who are besties with the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.

    The DUP may despise homosexuality but they don’t behead people for being homosexual. They don’t behead someone if they become a Catholic.

    They don’t encourage people to blow up weans in Manchester or knife people to death in London.

    Anyway, back to Scottish sovereignty…

  222. Capella says:

    @ Shrodingers Cat – Here’s a Herald article which mentions the “holding pen” as being discussed in Europe. Apologies to Stoker – archive refuses to lead the page for some reason.

  223. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 18:09,

    You keep on ducking and diving on this EU issue, and it’s high time you made your own preferences clear, instead of hiding behind misrepresentations of other people.

    The two main UK parties are likely to aim now for a customised non-EEA* deal that will allow the UK as a whole to remain in the single market, the price being that free movement is maintained and a two-finger salute to all the willing pawn Leavers who thought they were going to get a clamp-down on EU immigration. Would you support that outcome, even if one direct consequence is that an indyref2 is postponed indefinitely?

    *(Since the UK as a whole is too big anyway to be allowed into these small organisations, since it would swamp all the others.)

  224. colin Alexander says:

    @schrodingers cat

    I’M not suggesting indi is linked with the EU. The SNP are, that is a bad mistake.

    I’m saying Indi or at least Scottish sovereignty should be established first.


    Scotland chooses it’s EU future.
    Those who say Scotland voted to remain so Scotland should have no need for further consultation are wrong, in my humble opinion.

    Personally, I voted remain, while part of the UK because: 1. I thought it would trigger indi-ref2 AND the EU were a counterbalance to WM power.

    I never considered EU membership in the context of Scotland being sovereign or independent. Under those circumstances I would want to weigh up the pros and cons at the time if that situation arises.

  225. Macart says:

    Maybe worth a thought.

    Be aware that the opposition, having failed to break the Scottish government’s mandate at two times of asking this year, will now attempt to divide and break the YES movement.

    The narrative will be of division in the ranks. What doesn’t exist, they will invent or foment. Since they can’t kick in half the doors in the country and there is no organised institution or party for them them to assault through usual channels, they will attempt to reach the YES movement where they can be found in greatest numbers.

    Sites like this.

    Focus on what unites us, not what divides us. Self determination. A parliament and government that answers to the needs and aspirations of the Scottish electorate.

    A simple principle, but one we all have in common.

  226. galamcennalath says:

    I normally have faith in the SNP leadership’s judgement and planning.

    Now I’m not quite so sure they got it right.

    2011 majority in Holyrood, almost won IndyRef1, a flood of new members in response to Unionist cheating. Is the common element a staunch believe in independence above all else?

    I am beginning to wonder if the reponse to the EURef result was the right one.

    The SNP pursued a soft Brexit and in the single market policy. They offered the voice of compromise and reasonableness.

    Perhaps they should have gone for 62% Remain means remain, and if takes Indy to achieve remaining they would push for that.

    Instead it was a weaker, single market compromise, but Indy if that fails. The gamble possibly was that failure was likely because of Tory intransigence.

    The gamble may have failed. We may now move forward to single market / soft Brexit and the SNP has played no part in getting there.

    Head to head with the Tories saying “we are not leaving the EU” might have stopped drift to Labour and some supporters not voting at all.

    A hard approach might have overcome Leave-Yes doubters forcing them to chose Indy. It might also have attracted Remain-No given the Tories shift to the right.

  227. TheItalianJob says:


    Sound words and spot on. We need to be solid and aware in these times.

    Noticed a lot of new and unruly posters these past few days on this site.

    Regular Wingers do not rise to them.

  228. Meg merrilees says:

    Mark Russell @3.40

    Constitutional Research Council is the group who gave £425,000 to the DUP during the Brexit campaign.

    The DUP used the money to finance a prominent ‘Leave’ advert in the Metro newspaper in the London the day before (the day of? not sure which) the Brexit vote.

    Richard Cook is the name connected with the CRC – he was formerly high up in the Tory party in Scotland ( Chairman/deputy chairman – something like that).

    Electoral rules are very strict concerning donations over £25,000.
    You have to check the credentials of the donor before accepting and you have to be sure that the money is legal – not possibly money laundering and the names of people gifting more than £25,000 have to be listed.

    EXCEPT in N.Ireland where, owing to possible repercussions, donors are anonymous.

    Therefore, if you had a large amount of money from a source you wanted to conceal, which you wanted to donate to an election to help your side win, you could gift it to a sympathetic party in N. Ireland who could, as in this case, use the money to enhance the campaign with no questions being asked.

    However, question have been asked which led us back the the CRC and Richard Cook. Upon investigation, he is connected to companies which don’t exist anymore but which have never lodged accounts and there seem to be other irregularities.

    It has been suggested that before T May gets involved with the DUP it is necessary to find out exactly who was behind that £425,000.
    (It has been suggested that it might well be Saudi Arabia who buy a lot of our weapons.)

    Hope this clears some of it up for you.

    Someone may be able to post a link to some of the articles written about this.

  229. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    colin Alexander @ 18:44,

    That’s fair enough, which is why it doesn’t make any sense to oppose indy simply because of the EU or indeed anything else equally contentious. Focussing on the one essential is hard enough.

    People value predictability and security, so mininising the changes through to independence is the most promising way to win. Afterwards we will have time to take stock and move forward as we communally see fit.

    You said:

    Those who say Scotland voted to remain so Scotland should have no need for further consultation are wrong, in my humble opinion.

    Maybe there’s a misunderstanding there, but I honestly don’t believe that anyone is saying that at all. On the contrary, it’s those who are anti-EU for whatever reason who are attempting to impose their own pre-conditions for indy (and somehow believing that the UK will help them achieve it out of the goodness of its own Unionist heart).

    It will be really nice to make our own choices our own way, won’t it? Normal politics resumed. =grin= And of course we all will have to judge things as we find them at that time. But one gets the distinct impression that those who fear the likely outcome of such choices are the very ones who are erecting all the obstacles now. (And I don’t just mean the Tories.)

    As Macart rightly says, the last thing we need right now is self-harming splitterism.

  230. Meg merrilees says:

    Mark Russell @ 3.34


    Sorry Mark – just logged on and working my way up the thread – reading your 3.34 post, I realise you already know all that I’ve just posted. Sorry can’t be more informative.

  231. justin fn minty says:

    If the dup are getting monies via the saudi arabians does that make them bog arabs?

  232. K1 says:

    ‘@ K1

    You didn’t see where she was giving it large on immigration? The SNP losing 2/5ths of its seats doesn’t decrease support for independence, their raison d’etre?

    I’m lost for words on that.’

    I can’t find the link RN but am quite certain there is no information or any polling that supports the notion that the loss of 21 SNP’s MP’s has decreased ‘support for independence, their raison d’etre’.

    If you could proved a link that shows this, I’d much appreciate it?

    As far as I can recall many yessers voted Labour, I really think unless you can prove this, then your assertion and opinion remains just that. Although I’m happy to be contradicted on this, until we see an actual ‘poll’ post vote, I’ll stick to my ‘memory recall’ for the moment on this one,

    No, ‘I didn’t see where she was giving it large on immigration’, again if you could provide a link, it’d be much aprrectiated. Cheers.

  233. Meg merrilees says:

    I see Mike Russell has spoken today and sensibly.

    Ms Sturgeon published the Scottish government’s proposals for Brexit in December 2016, arguing it was possible for Scotland to remain in the European single market even after the rest of the UK left.
    Mr Russell said: “We believe it is still on the table and we do believe it contains some important solutions. It started with the premise that the whole of the UK should stay in the single market and that, I’m pleased to see, is something that is back on the agenda.
    “As a government we intend to continue to promote the ‘Scotland’s Place in Europe’ document, and if others wish to do so they would be very welcome to join us.
    “If the Tories in Scotland have genuinely changed their view on Brexit then I’d be very pleased. But the forum to take this forward is through the Joint Ministerial Committee.”
    He said he was sure there was still potential for a progressive alliance in the House of Commons, but that it was important to look at the Brexit situation this week, and “devise a new approach that takes in the four countries, not just England”.
    “Theresa May has tried to make all the decisions on this and look at the mess she’s made of it,” he added.

  234. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 19:15,

    Oh, I know, I know. The SG response was responsible and well-intentioned, for all the thanks it received. And it did indeed produce mixed messages, as we continue to observe in this forum.

    I don’t have any idea what Nicola’s next move was intended to be (something very smart, I imagine!), but after this crazy unexpected election, we do appear to have lost the initiative. =sigh=

    But given the extreme instability of the situation, who knows what will happen next..? =whistle=

  235. colin alexander says:

    Robert J. Sutherland @6:25 pm

    Robert, I campaigned for YES, I voted YES. If there were another referendum tomorrow I’d vote YES.

    I’d be happy with a declaration of UDI following elections with that in the manifesto. I don’t see the need for a referendum, but I seem to be a minority on that issue.

    I’m not the problem, the other 55% that voted No are the people that you need to convince that indi is best.

    If you can convince the majority to go straight for independence – then great, please do it. It would save us all a lot of work.

    The Scottish Govt also wanted the option of Home Rule on the 2014 referendum paper, as it was consistently the hugely favoured option in opinion polls. That’s why the UK Govt said no way: indi or not.

    So, on the basis of your reasoning it appears myself and the Scottish Govt are anti-indi saboteurs for wanting to allow a choice, but the UK Govt were the good guys for making it a straight Yes or NO to indi?

  236. HandandShrimp says:

    Just a passing thought, but what if May has played for a hung parliament so she can pass the can on Brexit or let Ruth play the rebel so that they come up with some compromise with the EU and say “Soz but you guys tied my hands with a hung parliament”

    Just a passing thought but what else can explain such a God awful campaign?

  237. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meg merrilees @ 19:37,

    Thanks for that, Meg. Sensible for the whole UK it may be if one accepts that a UK-wide Brexit must proceed. However, if that proposed course of action proves successful, since it also removes the “material change of circumstances” trigger, is the consequence for Scotland not to defer indyref2 indefinitely?

    If the SNP wilts now, what hope of even retaining its current support?

  238. heedtracker says:

    Just a passing thought but what else can explain such a God awful campaign?

    What’s an EU compromise though? Its likely that they know how many big corps in England are threatening to leave for the EU or be given Nissan deals, but how to keep paying them?

    Airbus has ‘no intention’ of pulling out of UK over EU
    16 June 2015
    From the section Business

    BUSINESS NEWS | Sat Jun 10, 2017 | 8:33pm EDT
    Airbus may look beyond UK unless Brexit demands met – Sunday Times

  239. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    colin alexander @ 19:43,

    That last paragraph of yours was a cheap travesty and you know it. As we all know, if a second, “home rule”, option had been offered back then, the majority of Scots would certainly have taken it, myself probably included, instead of independence.

    As the subsequent “Vow”, but carved in stone, and one that couldn’t be reneged upon. No wonder the insincere Unionists wouldn’t agree to it – they would have been obliged to actually implement it, instead of just pretending. (As BLis and the FibDems still very faintly are.)

    I thought at the time that Salmond was being extraordinarily generous in making that offer. A sign of the true statesman that he was, and is. No Unionist was anywhere in that league.

    But that was then, and now is now. I wouldn’t trust the Unionists to deliver on anything they promised, even if it was carved in giant letters on Ben Nevis and visible from space. Would you?

    In the meantime, to hell with soft options. I have discovered that I actually quite like the idea of having a country with its own (modest) foreign policy and its own (modest) defence policy. Don’t you?

  240. Effijy says:

    colin Alexander says:
    11 June, 2017 at 6:30 pm
    For those indignant at the DUP’s policies, maybe you would have a more fundamentalist belief system too,if you had lived most of your life wondering if you and your family will be shot or blown up today.
    If anyone thinks the Tories give a monkeys about DUP “extremism”. We are talking about a Tory Govt who are besties with the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.
    The DUP may despise homosexuality but they don’t behead people for being homosexual. They don’t behead someone if they become a Catholic.
    They don’t encourage people to blow up weans in Manchester or knife people to death in London.

    Response: Sorry Colin, you are totally wrong about the DUP. They work VERY closely with the UDA/UVF and if you know anyone who lives in N.Ireland, you might know more about what happens to those who stand against them.

    They don’t behead them, but does that matter when you are dead?

    Guess who was behind this recent shooting.
    Everyone in N.Ireland knows.

  241. stewartb says:

    In thinking through where we’re at now given the GE2017 result, I came across this that I posted on another pro-Indy site on 6th September 2014 made with reference to the following: ‘The people of Scotland are to be offered a historic opportunity to devise a federal future for their country before next year’s general election.’

    I wrote: “So what can we have? Our own foreign policy? Our own seats at the UN, NATO, the Council of Europe for as long as the people of Scotland wish? No House of Lords? No Trident? An end to projecting military power across the world? Decisions made in Scotland on military intervention? None of our money being used for massive capital projects to benefit somewhere else? Always a government with FULL powers that we in Scotland choose? I don’t think so. You can max DEVO MAX as much as you like but it always falls short of self determination. Just vote YES.”

    I have not changed my mind.

    And here on Wings I shared on 25 June, 2016 the following: “Author Philip Pullman in The Guardian on 25th June writing about the UK post-EU referendum result states:

    ‘… , if we had a properly thought-out constitution instead of a cobwebbed, rotten, diseased and decaying mess of a patched-up, cobbled-together, bloated, corrupted, leaking and stinking hulk, we wouldn’t have come to this point anyway. We desperately need fundamental change. But who can bring us that now?’

    He paints an attractive picture of this ‘bested of the best Union in the history of the world’ does he not! But we still have an answer to his question in Scotland – and its our independence. The rest of the UK needs to work on its own solution – its not easy, takes time, commitment and hard work by the people, not just the politicians. And I sincerely wish them well.

  242. Tinto Chiel says:

    RJS @6.25: how true.

    If you are genuinely anti-EU and claim you are an SNP supporter, then achieve independence first and then let us discuss our position later. As I have said before, the SNP could shoot this fox by promising a vote on EU membership post-independence.

  243. Meg merrilees says:


    I don’t know enough about the document ‘Scotland’s Place in Europe’ (ashamed to say) but i guess the clue is in the name.

    This was the SNP plan in Dec 16. My understanding is that it was a plan for Scotland to remain in the single market whilst everyone else left.
    Although I remember Nicola saying it could be a plan for the whole UK, I can’t remember what her stance was on Indy at this point.

    I think part of the stumbling block to this plan was the EU border would lie between Scotland and England if one was in and one out.
    I also know that T may dismissed it, but so much has happened since then that I can’t quite remember the sequence of events re Indy ref 2 and ‘now is not the time’

    Here’s a link to the article.

  244. K1 says:

    But if they do that Tinto, does that not come across as ‘double dealing’? It would be played out that way relentlessly by the usual entire msm? Damaging our reputation as straight talkers, sure and is this not why they repeatedly got Nicola to state categorically that she wished to remain in the EU. Would this not just give them more ammo, at this point in time?

    It seems to me the divide and conquer ruse would have worked and the msm played the 38% want out card as a part of encouraging that very split? They want the SNP destroyed and this would be a means to this end by driving the wedge further between independence supporters on this issue.

    Don’t get me wrong it seems a perfectly rational position, but perhaps should have been deployed in the aftermath, not sure about that as a tactic now, especially after Friday. 🙁

  245. Tinto Chiel says:

    K1: that’s a very good point, actually. I think we possibly got carried away (Alan Smyth-wise) with our pro-EU rhetoric, clutching at straws of possible support.

    Personally, I don’t think most Europeans (or Scots) know very much about the true nature of our union with England, and if we don’t show much support, as could be construed from the 2017 GE result, they may not be interested in some holding-pen arrangement.

    Nice to hear from you.

  246. Stoker says:

    Capella (6:32 pm):

    Why you apologising to me? It’s the independence movement you’re harming, just like the post at 8:12 pm. There is always an alternative.

    Folks, if you don’t want to click on that direct Herald link and help to fund the BUM rags campaign against us, here’s an alternative.

  247. colin alexander says:

    Robert J. Sutherland@ 8:11 pm

    No, I wouldn’t trust a Unionist Govt and aye I’d rather have full independence.

    But,the clock is ticking. I don’t think there is time for an indi-ref if we wait till Brexit is a settled matter and if the referendum is to happen before the next Scottish Govt election in 2021.

    The UK Govt will probably want Brexit AND a trade deal finalised first.

    Then ratified by Commons and Lords.

    How long will all that take????

    It’s obvious if the UK Govt think they can filibuster an Indi-ref so one does not happen before the Scottish election of 2021, they will. If the SNP don’t get a majority ( with Greens’ support) in 2021, game over for independence for at least another five years.

  248. yesindyref2 says:

    @colin alexander
    Almost tangentially, the SNP and Sturgeon are going to have to show some humility for a time, but not that long! I’d say business as normal after the summer break.

    And then it’s all to play for again.

  249. Stoker says:

    Here’s some relevant bedtime reading from yesteryear:

    All things are relative

    How soon isn’t now?

    The smell of fear

    Sleep well, tomorrow’s another day.

  250. Stoker says:

    Almost forgot, here’s a bedtime story for the DUP. Sleep well! 🙂
    A thing that really happened

  251. cirsium says:

    @indyref2, 2.48

    Then in September after the holidays, around the 5th, the fiscal commission releases its first paper – “Currency for an Independent Scotland” with plans for the Central Bank. Followed a month later by “Scotland’s Future Economy – an Overview”. Followed by …

    the first draft of a constitution for Scotland

  252. Capella says:

    @ Stoker – I’m apologising to you because you have made point of getting people to use archive. Normally I do archive links but on this occasion my browser wouldn’t allow me to load the page.
    I decided it was more important to get the information out than leave it unposted. But I do archive whenever possible.

  253. yesindyref2 says:

    @cirsium “the first draft of a constitution for Scotland”

    Definitely. That WILL win over voters because it’ll interest them.

  254. Breeks says:

    Lochside @ 5:03pm

    I have a lot of sympathy with what you say, but it creates an immense problem for us to rewind our journey down this long cul de sac where we have conceded so many points of constitutional acquiesce to now place our hope for Independence upon a much less demanding criteria of an SNP majority of Scottish MP’s a Westminster.

    It suddenly seems dubious ( though constitutionally correct) for 35 out of 59 MP’s suddenly being able to achieve something that 56 out of 59 MP’s could not.

    By the same token, what exactly was the plan of attack when we had 56 out of 59 MP’s? I take it we knew beforehand that 56 out of 650 MP’s at Westminster was never going to win an actual vote for Scottish Independence… So what did we expect them to actually do instead?

    I asked a question of the SNP years ago, frankly, quite a hostile question about whether they actually knew what they were doing. I mean literally, what is the A to B, to C, to D process for securing Independence. Even now, with the SNP formed in the 30’s, (?), after Devolution lost, then Devolution won, then an SNP government, then an SNP majority… In all that time, given all that opportunity, how come nobody has ever sought a judicial review from the Court of Session to clarify the status and legitimacy of Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty? Isn’t that just a little remiss of any self respecting Independence movement? To actually KNOW the benchmarks to be met?

    I don’t think we lack any resolve to be Independent, but it’s the imprecise understanding of the constitutional “criticals” which is breeding uncertainty and a lack of confidence. To be cruel about it, we are bumbling our way in what we think is the right direction for independence, but nobody seems especially certain about anything. Worse than that, there is a distinct possibility that our SNP majority at Westminster was the correct turn off for Independence, but we missed the junction and drove right past it.

    The constitutional integrity of the Act of Union has never been tested in law eh? Well why aren’t we bloody well testing it right now???

    I’m pointing the finger at the SNP, but it’s unfair to do so, since any one of us over the last 310 years could have done the same thing. Why don’t we take it upon ourselves to crowd fund and commission a Judicial Review at the Court of Session to clarify the constitutional status of our sovereignty?

    To play devils advocate with myself, I would argue that just like a UDI, a constitutional edict from the Court of Session may have authenticity and historic integrity, but unless there is a specific democratic majority from the people, and not merely their proxy representatives in Westminster, then it doesn’t carry any weight. There is a big question mark hanging over whether such a route to achieving, or rather restoring sovereign independence would secure International recognition.

    But doesn’t the fact we don’t actually know this reflect the same kind of knowledge gap we have about our own constitutional sovereignty? Has NOBODY actually stopped and asked this question before??? Then for goodness sake, ask it now!!!

    Surely to God, if we want to pursue this peaceful, democratic, constructive and inclusive journey towards Independence, one of the first duties of any self respecting “separatist” movement is to research and understand in explicit detail the actual constitutional checklist which delivers the correct route to achieve legitimate and properly recognised Independence. It’s like SCUBA diving; you plan the dive then dive the plan.

    Surely we need guidance from professional constitutional experts don’t we? Unless we have it, we are doomed to bumble along like amateurs hoping to stumble across random act of deliverance from Unionism, and hoping that we recognise it when we do.

  255. roert esuierdo says:

    I have over the years asked the question when 25% of the electorate do not vote. HOW do you educate the uneducated. Please stop writing paragraphs of your own thoughts and address the real issue . Education

  256. blood of bruce says:

    first time poster.

    seperate the real smoke from fires from the steam from crap, and follow the money.

    dont let them grind you down, dont let them divide us.

    its on and they are scared, the uk establishment is going to rip itself apart.

    look to the bruce for inspiration, daughter hung in a cage for years, 4 brothers killed, umpteen others destroyed and those power hungry unionists will do anything still.

    they hate it when we stick it out and fight them on our ground, we must chose the political battlefield and hold it and the win will come naturally because it is right and our right.

    once weve decided that ground we must be relentless and grind them into defeat, may is weak and corbyn may well turn back into a joke figure.

    expose kezia for her underhand deal with ruth and rennie at expense of corbyn, ("Tractor" - Ed)s all 3 of them, they have been bought and will be sold in time.

  257. yesindyref2 says:

    Just had a look at some Expesss comments. I think the bottom has fallen out of their world, rather than the usual, errr, other way around.

  258. Ghillie says:

    Sarah @12.29 pm

    Well said = )

  259. Patrician says:

    Not much to add here but I think the SNP vote didn’t move in any large numbers to the Tories or Labour. No, it was sitting at home uninspired by one of the most inept political campaigns any party has ever ran.

  260. Sorry if this has been covered already – I don’t have the time to go through all the comments.

    Just wanted to say that the real danger to the SNP now is that, of the 35 seats they held, no fewer than 31 of them are now marginals according to the standard definition of the term, i.e. that the gap between first and second is 10% or less of the votes cast. Of these 31, 23 have Labour as the chasing party, and so any further boost in Labour’s poll numbers generally would sweep nearly all of them away.

    And this is before you consider that the unionist parties will be a bit more savvy about tactical voting next time around.

    Some fingers need to be pulled out, and the next campaign has to be far more than a form of “We can run things better than the others”; that’s the line which ultimately brought New Labour down. Independence is the party’s USP, and it should throw it in people’s faces (in a nice way, of course) at every opportunity.

    Still, consider yourselves fortunate that you actually have a vibrant national movement. We down here have to make do with a party whose electoral performance over three decades should require it to change its name to ‘Plaid Flatline’ 🙁 .

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