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Wings Over Scotland

Think of the country first

Posted on June 11, 2017 by

Simon Pia, former Scottish Labour spin doctor.


(All clips via the always-excellent Phantom Power Films.)

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143 to “Think of the country first”

  1. Auld Rock says:

    Is this for real? If it is I’ve some rethinking to do, as I suspect do most of you.

    Auld Rock

  2. Dan777A says:

    That’s incredible, never thought such a seemingly die-hard unionist would join the cause! If we can get him on board then who can’t we get?

    Who’s next? Duncan Hothersall?

    Crazy times!

  3. Muscleguy says:

    SLAB and the FibDems would first have to drop their hard core unionism and opposition to the referendum being held. Otherwise they would simply be a fifth column in government and seek to wreck things in order to make things look worse for Independence.

    BUT if asked to do that they would simply come back and insist that the SNP and Greens drop their support for independence.

    IOW Mr Pia’s scheme is rather rosy eyed. The parties are at daggers drawn because Independence is such a dividing line. It is also how much of the electorate sees it as well as the hardening of the unionist vote behind the Tories indicates.

    Besides SNP plus Green is a working majority all by itself.

  4. Jack Murphy says:

    Listening to Simon Pia on the Telly some nights I never ever thought he would think outside the box——but he has.
    Congratulations. 🙂

  5. scottieDog says:

    Thought pia came over sometime ago?

  6. Tartan Tory says:

    The most powerful film of the series so far. Pragmatism could win the day. The only problem is that Kez and Willie are on a London payroll. They will probably think of themselves, their own pockets and their careers(?) before everything else.

  7. K1 says:

    He did scottieDog, lot of people don’t know this though 😉

  8. Proud Cybernat says:

    Really great to see. People really are turning to YES in their droves. FFS – even Ruthie-babes is hinting at not backing TMay if she jumps into bed with the DUP. What does she do then?

    With regards to the SG. Now is the time to be radical and truly bold. The WM Gov is at its weakest it has been in a very very long time and with no sign of things improving. It is, quite literally, lurching from one crisis to the next. Scotland deserves strong and stable government. It’s not getting it with the WM imbeciles. The UK is a total clusterf##k in so many different ways right now.

    Time to totally wrong-foot the Yoons. Strike when they are at their weakest and when they don’t know New Year from New York. That time is NOW.

    On Monday the FM should stand up in HR and call a Scottish General Election. (This, I think, requires a 2/3 majority to dissolve Scots Parl). I think both Tory and Labour will vote for this so it should pass okay.

    Te subsequent Scottish Election sould be all about Independence and nothing else. SNP stands on a platform that a majority of Indy-supporting parties will give the Scots Gvea mandate to negotiate Indy with WM. Let’s take the fight right into their faces when they least expect it. We don’t need IndyRef2 – we just need the indy-supporting MSPs to win a majority in Holyrood.

    If the SNP loses and does nit become the largest party – good. The people of Scotland will then finally see what the SNP has been protecting them from for years.

    We must strike when they are at their weakest and when they least expect us to. That time is NOW.

    Come on Nicola. Be bold. Be brave. Be Scots.

  9. Another Union Dividend says:

    Great article here on why the SNP must not put referendum on back burner just because it upsets some soft Tories.

    Remember the Labour vote in Scotland did not go up by any meaningful amount and SNP won the election in Scotland.

    Potential SNP voters stayed at home because they weren’t enthused enough by the campaign. However it wasn’t Nicola Sturgeon’s fault that our manifesto launch had to be postponed by a week but it was weak and the election caught the SNP by surprise.

    Time for a radical reassessment of SNP policies, campaign organisation plus some new faces in Scottish government front bench.

    Don’t scrap referendum as that will hand Davidson a real victory as opposed to the Pyrrhic victory she has due to her new MPs being found wanting as mere placemen and women at Westminster.

  10. Ken500 says:

    Rennie, Dugdale Davidson. (Unionists) etc can never support Independence n Scotland. They are funded from London by Unionists. (Dubious illegally funding?) Breaking electoral Law? They would rather ruin the Scottish economy and endorses hardship in Scotland. In order to line their own pockets. Their selfish concern outweigh any co operation. More lies. Self interest before public concern. That is what the Unionist venom is all about. Criminal and crooks getting away with murder, corruption, fraud at every level. Dubious funding etc. Breaking UK Law and getting away with it. Never censored. Unionist cover up. Rotten apples in every barrel.

    Simon Pia should know that.

    Many voters stayed at home because they are sick of May, Westminster the Unionists corruption at every level. Council Holyrood etc. The crooks getting away with murder. Unionist cover up.

  11. sinky says:

    Derek Bateman sensible as usual

    We have a trip lock mandate for another referendum AFTER brexit terms are known (not unlike the Lib Dem policy that hapless Christine Jardine couldn’t justify on Politics Show.)

    “You don’t dance to someone else’s tune and call yourself a leader. We don’t need another Kezia”.

  12. Capella says:

    Very positive statement from Simon Pia. These videos are so encouraging because people who were once NO have really examined the issue and changed their mind. It takes a lot of courage to speak out for Indy if you have a comfortable perch in the Establishment order.
    So thanks Simon for being honest and cheering us all up.

  13. Shug says:

    Very positive from Simon but is he still a yes after Corbin has done so well

    I do think the snp has to go strong on when we know the brexit deal we will give the people the choice

  14. schrodingers cat says:

    wasnt simon urging scots to vote labour 2 days ago?

  15. Ken500 says:

    People who are too scared to attack Nicola. Turn to attacking Nicola’s husband. They have both done more for the SNP and Independence and Scotland. Than any of them.

    To settle old held personal grievances. Cowards.

  16. Ken500 says:

    Too much drink again? Or just slavering.

  17. stonefree says:

    @Proud Cybernat 4:52 pm

    If you had said that last week I would have agreed, but now and especially to-day with the Herald article on the SNP CEO, I thought for the last 18 month they had a middle management problem, maybe that is not the case, the local elections were a disgrace and unfortunately the Tories kept going on and on and on.
    At grassroot level It seemed to me ,that it was OK to lie to members, to acquiesce to their masters.And I have to say it seemed that few of the so called stalwarts had lost both passion and any notion of independence..That is only my view and 2 particular branches,others may have different perspective

  18. Abulhaq says:

    Independence ought to blow the negative ‘can’t do’ opposition out of the water. It should stimulate, thrill and excite the imagination beyond anything the opposition could ever confect. It is where the new Scotland starts and national renewal begins. It is hope expressed in a single word.
    Next time, we need to ignite the country with a desire for it. Hope! who in their right mind wouldn’t want a slice.

  19. Ken500 says:

    Too much juice again. Or just slavering.

  20. Robert Roddick says:

    This is huge. Welcome aboard Simon.

  21. Street Andrew says:

    Very good these videos.

    My hat is off, for style and content, to the instigators and film makers.

    We don’t get nearly enough of this sort of rational explanation of issues and opinions in the mainstream mud-slinging media coverage of politics.

  22. Bob Mack says:

    There are many twists and turns yet to have effects on this whole business. Firstly the DUP will never ever vote for a hard Brexit. May would have done so through pressure from within the Party. At the last election Sinn Fein won every border seat, thus shrinking the sphere of influence of the DUP.
    They will wish to consolidate what they have left. Many of their constituents rely on benefits so I think you can safely say that those planned for this Parliament will be scrapped.

    More importantly with a soft Brexit, Nicolas reason to hold a referendum is somewhat diminished. She will be wrestling with this

    However all is not lost. Those Scots who voted Tory did so to give Mrs May the power to deliver a HARD Brexit. We have seen posters on this forum state their disagreement about being ruled by Brussels. Too bad. What are these voters going to do to show their displeasure at the next elections? You tell me.

    Future = soft Brexit ,which opens new possibilities for the indy movement.

    It is all playing out now before our very eyes. Patience.

  23. Giving Goose says:

    I’m struggling with this chap.
    While I welcome his conversion to Yes, a part of me is saying – “he was a Labour spin doctor and look what happened to them.”

    Labour was failing in Scotland long before the SNP won power in Holyrood. That would have been on Simon’s watch.

    Should I question his judgement and idea about a Grand Coalition of the SNP, Labour, LibDems & Greens?

    Reach out to Labour when they encouraged people to vote Tory?

    So Simon is either very optimistic (and I’ve missed something) or he’s smoking something that he shouldn’t be.

  24. galamcennalath says:

    Made before the election result and what went on during it.

    He says Labour and SNP bickering helps the Tories, Perhaps. However we now know that Labour are willing to collude with the Tories to actually get Tories elected! So Labour is more Unionist than Scottish, for certain. Makes the possibility of anti Tory unity in Scotland far from the true position of Labour.

    Pia fails to see Labour as just another bunch of Tories. The reality of this GE has proven that as far as Scotland goes, they are.

    I do agree however that Home Rule/Federalism is history. It’s Indy or Union.

  25. Ken500 says:

    Doesn’t Holyrood have fixed term Parliaments? Imposed by Unionists ( when it suits them).

    More journo nonsense.

    It just need Boris Johnstone as MP as predicted. For the final Indy push. 60%+++.

    Everything lining up nicely, as predicted. Get ready for the next IndyRef Campaign. It just needs the administration and everything in place before the date is set.

  26. Big Jock says:

    Would be great to have a grand coalition. However the current Slab intake care more about the UK than they do Scotland. The bitterness and intransigence all comes from one side Labour! They are happy to have a sectarian party running the UK, than Scotland running itself..

  27. Shug says:
    11 June, 2017 at 5:46 pm
    Very positive from Simon but is he still a yes after Corbin has done so well

    I do think the snp has to go strong on when we know the brexit deal we will give the people the choice

    Aye Shug I am with you. In fact I don’t trust Simon Pia, I would like to be wrong but over his comments on the GE has me worried. I note in his piece he talks about Lab and SNP at war with each other, and urges Nicola and SNP to reach out. Perhaps he should be talking to his Labour colleagues and convincing them to stop the attacks and lies they throw out daily. He might also ask Dugdale and co. to change and reach out to the SNP then demonstrate their change.

  28. Famous15 says:

    See that bullet Ruthie said we dodged by voting NO in 2014 seems to have defied the laws of physics by taking three years for the ricochet to kill the UK.

  29. Dan Huil says:

    Time for action, not words. Time to stop playing by britnat establishment rules. Action? Surely there are some weel-kent SNP/Green politicians who have the guts to put their careers on the line by taking illegal but non-violent action to further our cause.

    How about some SNP/Green politicians proclaiming publicly that the bbc tax should be boycotted and guaranteeing the Scottish government would never allow members of the public who follow suit to be prosecuted for non-payment in the Scottish courts?

    How about next time there’s a delivery convoy to Faslane one or two SNP/Green politicians or weel-kent supporters follow Mr Brian Quail’s example by blocking the way of these WMD?

  30. Ken500 says:

    The DUP want a hard Brexit. Along with the rest of their criminal nonsense. They ever want Farague in as a Lord by some reports. That crook. Partners in crime?

  31. Robert Graham says:

    The latest of these excellent short clips, well made and the people’s stories are inspiring .

    What kind of distribution have they had ? Who has actually seen them ? has anyone at the SNP seen them , apart from crowd funding has the SNP or the Scottish government in the form of some kind of artistic grant helped.

    In short the MSM are intent in actively ignoring and trying to make the SNP invisible, so please oh f/in please in the few occasions they are on TV make it count don’t get walked over or Talked over, and reach out to the rest of the Independence movement, everyone has to be involved ,

    After the severe kicking we have had over the last few weeks, a lot of folks here are pretty short tempered because most have been offering solutions to problems that were becoming evident, most here could see the outcome of these TV Debates and the way they were going, so why continue to get battered when it could have all been avoided, fight back , being nice isn’t working the BBC are not friends, treat them like the plague they are .

  32. Brian Powell says:

    Through Ruth’s Party Scottish Labour and LibDems are now in a close relationship with the DUP.

  33. Thepnr says:

    Simon Pia is just another No voter that changed their mind and have now decided to vote Yes. I welcome Simons vote as I would any former Labour voter voting Yes.

    There are many just like me who are former Labour voters that support Yes and that’s why the SNP got 50% at the 2015 election. What we need now are half the remaining Labour supporters and I believe we can win them over.

    You former Labour supporters that voted Yes and still do that is your job, you know the people to target and talk to. I really feel we ALL have to do a bit more. Just do our best.

  34. Graeme says:

    As much as I welcome folk coming over from NO there’s a part of that will never understand or forgive them for screwing us over in 2014 and the pathetic reasons they’ve gave for doing it.

    In Simons case it’s because he didn’t believe the Yes side was being honest with the public so presumably he believed the NO side was and he says he thinks we need to put party politics behind us and think about the country, just a pity he didn’t think that way in 2014 when it mattered.


  35. Nana says:

    Well shall we all be ‘humble’ and why would we want to ‘park’ indy for now asks Mr Pia

  36. Nana says:

    Ach I wrote that wrong, eating ice cream and got brain freeze.

    Should have read, Why should we be humble and why should we park indy for now. I ask Mr Pia

  37. sinky says:

    Unfortunately Simon Piaget has little influence in Labour. Other than possibly Edinburgh at Council level Labour would rather form alliances with Tories.

  38. sinky says:

    Aargh Predictive text

  39. Anon says:

    Was at a birthday party today near Stirling today and met a fellow Winger, and we had an enjoyable chat about the current situation.

  40. sinky says:

    Let’s not forget that that Labour’s Messiah’s manifesto supports the renewal of Trident WMD and Bexit

  41. galamcennalath says:

    Simple question, who wants to be part of a less hard UK but which will inevitably swing back to the right at some point, and who wants Scottish independence where we make our own future?

    I’m with the latter.

    At the moment the Indy movement risks being overwhelmed by the former.

    The UK with a Tory minority would seem unlikely to be a hard right as it would have been with a big majority. Brexit looks to have had the extremism curbed,

    If the next Holyrood election plays out like this general election then there will be no Indy majority. That means no IndyRef2 whatever reasons arise to justify one.

    However, we can’t have IndyRef2 in the shorter term if Brexit moves to single market membership as it seems to be.

  42. Robert Graham says:

    A wee word for Kenny Mc Caskill – What the f/k are you up to ? , if you are not going to help shut the f/k up please . The BBC doesn’t want you for your sparkling personality they want a stick to beat the SNP and you just provided one, are you f/n stupid ? . I give up , I really bloody despair .

  43. One_Scot says:

    Just watched Mayhem go on about her reshuffle, rather than looking strong and stable, she looks like a giant Weebles Wobble.

  44. Robert Louis says:

    You know something his idea of a unity type Government offer, is not such a bad one. As he says, it would then be up to them to reject it. Not such a bad idea at all.

  45. Glamaig says:

    galamcennalath says:
    11 June, 2017 at 7:58 pm
    ‘However, we can’t have IndyRef2 in the shorter term if Brexit moves to single market membership as it seems to be.’

    The messages are all over the place. Yesterday Corbyn seemed to hint at single market, today he ruled it out. He has to reconcile his young voters with his constituencies in places like Essex and the NE which were strongly Leave. DUP are hard Brexit but want an open border. Tories are going to tear themselves apart again. It just takes Soubry and Clark and one or two others to rebel and theyre fked. Its chaos, a year after the EURef and over 2 months after they served Article 50. For me thats reason enough to get out and away from these incompetent arseholes.

    So we just dont know. We are left in the same place which is, Indyref when we know the Brexit terms’. The softer the solution, the harder the decision for us.

    Im not sure if its any worse to have Indyref2 and lose, or not have it at all. Either way we might not get another chance for a very long time, so we might as well go for it. One thing to consider is that the only way we have increased indy support significantly in the past is by having a campaign, and we are starting at 45% plus.

  46. Cadogan Enright says:

    DUP try to ban beer at beer festival (in Ireland !?)

    Slight case of over-reach I think

  47. heedtracker says:

    Very nice to hear all that. Opening up Scots gov cabinet slots to Lab/Lib/Green is great idea, but look at what they all do when they hold levers of power, everything unionists do is the UK first, Scotland second. And they’ve all been very well rewarded for the loyalty too.

    We all have a unionist catastrofuck ups in their Scotland region WTF list.

    AWPR by-pass round Aberdeen is up there, 4 decades late, why? well you see Aberdeen’s the oil capital of Europe with a very busy port supplying a multi billion pound offshore oil industry.

    So that’s why Aberdeen does not need decent transport infrastructure. Its every other city and town in England first, and then maybe, when the oil’s in decline, we might consider it, because its always, the UK First.

    This is the 400 year old bridge into Aberdeen, either to Aberdeen Airport, or the harbour, I UKOK shit you not.

  48. galamcennalath says:

    Glamaig says:

    Im not sure if its any worse to have Indyref2 and lose, or not have it at all. Either way we might not get another chance for a very long time, so we might as well go for it.

    That’s what I would say too. If we don’t have it now before Holyrood election, we may never.

    I would go on the basis of a Brexit of any kind plus Westminster’s betrayal and antics. The lies, false promises, sell outs, and failures are enough for me.

    Whether the SNP take such a hard line is another matter.

  49. One_Scot says:

    ‘However, we can’t have IndyRef2 in the shorter term if Brexit moves to single market membership as it seems to be.’

    Can’t see Mayhem moving position on Brexit. She is in the pocket of the ‘Money Men’ who control the UK. They would go ape shit.

  50. Robert Peffers says:

    I’m reading some desperate and very wrong rhetoric here on Wings since the GE. It is about time some Wingers took a deep breath and sat down quietly and did a bit of calm and reasoned thinking.

    There is no great need for panic for things are actually looking like working out just fine. The unionist propaganda is obviously plainly caused by sheer desperation and was only to be expected.

    I’ll, as usual, qualify what I say with, “I may be wrong but”, yet it seems obvious to me that what happened was predicted by several Wingers before the election. The GE was always going to be seen by the Westminster Establishment as a referendum about a referendum with much of the dumber Scottish electorate being brainwashed to believe just that.

    In the event we can plainly see that there is now an unofficial coalition of Westminster Establishment parties with Tory, Labour and LibDem followers voting for whichever candidate they saw as the one with the best chance of beating the SNP.

    Among the electorate, if not the parties, it most certainly was the Union vs The SNP and sadly there were more than a few former quite stupid YES voters who believed that the union of Europe is the same pernicious form of unionism as is the Westminster virtual dictatorship who were prepared to vote for any unionist who would prevent the SNP sweeping the board.

    Nothing could be further from the truth but these anti-EU former Yes voters are just very badly informed and the Westminster Establishment is never going to tell them the truth that the EU works as a consensus and not as a dictatorship.

    In the first place the presidency of the EU is done by a, “Buggin’s Turn”, system in which every EU member state gets it’s turn to provide the presidency and it is the presidency that sets the agenda while they hold the office of President and in the second place every member state has a veto. Nothing gets accepted by the EU parliament unless accepted by every member state.

    As we have just seen at Westminster, the PM can, and often does, force her/his decisions upon the UK on the say so of the PM alone.

    If Scotland remains as the legacy member state then Scotland would get her Buggin’s Turn like every other member state but these numpties are convinced that Europe is as bad, or even worse, than the UK.

  51. jockmcx says:

    Grand coalition of yes…bricks and mortar…set the yes move- ment in stone.

    nobody listen,s

    Religions and politition,s sell magic pumpkins,but people
    buy them.

    So how do they know indy is not just another magic pumpkin,
    we need a home.

  52. Bob Mack says:

    As of 5 hours ago, the Financial Times is reporting that the DUP have stated that in return for supporting the Tories there must be a “soft Brexit” Trouble for Mrs May.

    It also seems the Labour leadership down south have an inability to interpret voter wishes. Corbyn talking about hard Brexit. This fool may support May in that case.

    (Goes to bed) in disbelief.Night all.

  53. Terry says:

    @robert peffers.

    You nailed it. Thanks.

  54. Legerwood says:

    You know what Ms Sturgeon should do? Pile all those 35 MPs into a bus and head down to South Queensferry for a photo op in front of that beautiful bridge.

    The SNP won. Act like it. Stop hiding away as if you are ashamed. Get out there. You have nothing to be ashamed off.

    How many elections have the SNP won since 2007? You won this one – act like it. The loss was 21 seats NOT the election and not the argument for independence.

    Make use of the people who have lost their seats. Make them into a think-tank on independence while the rest get on with the day job in Holyrood, in Westminster and in the Town halls

    Yes there are lessons to be learned but the condition is no where near terminal.

  55. Dan Huil says:

    I have faith in the theory that the arrogance, ignorance and incompetence of Westminster will deliver independence to Scotland.

  56. Artyhetty says:

    Interesting. As a journalist this guy must have seen the daily, wall to wall media bias, the lies from the likes of Brown, Murphy and the horrendous ‘project fear’ actually used against the Scottish people. Labour branch in Scotland actually had the support of the media, they still do! With bells on before the independence referendum.

    The bias and propaganda was a disgrace, still is. To say that the Scottish government ‘were not honest enough with the Scottish public’ making it seem like a future of ‘a land of milk and honey’, absolutely disagree with that. He says that the Scotgov did not tell people about ‘the problems and challenges that lie ahead, there were, potential problems in the early days’. I think his tenses are mixed up there.

    The White Paper.

    The only thing that the Scotgov did not do and should have, was tell people how absolutely horrendous another 5,10,15 years of tory rule would be for Scotland.

    The VOW.

    The EU, lies lies lies from the unionists and why anyone would believe them is beyond me quite frankly. The unionists led a campaign of hate, of total outright lies and fabrication. They had NOTHING at all to OFFER Scotland, nothing, just lies and scaremongering. The Scottish government attempted to counter that, Alex Salmond repeatedly said they were NOT offering milk and honey!

    They were offering Scotland a choice, to make our own decisions on all matters that any country should have, not let some twisted, devious neighbour rule with an iron rod!

    No, on this one, I find it difficult to agree on most of what this guy is saying.

    Agree with a comment on Wings on a so called alliance, it just will not happen. Labour, lib dums, they would use it, either way to bash the Scotgov, the SNP. They have the levers of journalism, of a kind which is seriously disturbingly, biased against one particular, popular, democratically elected political party, ie the SNP, in their favour. They have money to back them up as well.

    The Scottish gov must keep independence on the table, but get the gloves off. Means test the rich in Scotland, sorry hate means testing for some things, but my god do alot of extremely well off folks get a good deal in Scotland, many who cannot stand the SNP.

    We will see a different approach next time it has to be.

    The yessers or SNP have not been particularly unfriendly or exclusive imo. Quite the opposite, but been up against some animosity from unionists, even aside from state run media and biased journalism.

    Perhaps that can be challenged by this guy, the sheer negativity, stifling of debate, silencing, (literally at times ) of Nicola Sturgeon, the totally unchallenged lies from unionist politicians about Scotland’s potential.

    GERS. McCrone report, Barnett, VAT imposed on Scotland’s emergency services but not in rUK.
    Farming money from EU not being given to Scottish farmers as it should, it being handed to UKGov
    to divvy out as they see fit, much going to Eng farmers. All kinds of unionist underhand practices going on, with which Scotland’s minimal powers can have little effect.

    Much to think on, interesting to have this point of view for sure. I just hope it’s not all too late, I really do. Scotland deserves better than has been served up for over 300+ years by her patronising neighbour, a few crumbs and be thankful you sweaty jocks.

    Why would anyone in their right mind be happy with that.

  57. Dave Robb says:

    Brexit means brexit meets chaos means chaos, strong and stable turns out to be crippled and clueless.

    In the meantime it just requires a bit of quiet analysis and honest refelection to find a way to move forward, while leaving the foaming hysterics to the loons/yoons.

    Some self-censorship by some of the over-large egos currently parading their wisdom here – and more importantly – on the enemy’s broadcasting station would be very helpful just now.

    Read what Stu has done with the figures, think about all that was done badly or in error, come up with a better plan in a short timescale, AND INVOLVE THE WIDER YES MOVEMENT, rather than putting everything on the SNP and Nicola, however vital they are to political success.

    Ii’s disgraceful that a corrrupt political party, with hidden financial backers, accused of covering up decades of sex abuse, guilty of direct links with people who commit violence and terrorism against civilians, and social attitudes mired in the eighteenth century should be allowed into government by the back door. The DUP should be ashamed to be associated with such reprobates!

    Keep calm , don’t panic, watch the fun, remember the spider.

  58. Dorothy Devine says:

    Legerwood , excellent venue , excellent idea!

  59. Proud Cybernat says:

    For those who voted Tory to ‘Stop the Essennpee’.

    The biggest economic and social catastrof##k EVER is about to engulf the whole of the UK. It’s already started. See the price of your wee holidays to Spain and Greece, price of food in the shops all rocketing? That’s just the tip of the Brexit-world iceberg.

    Now, Nicola Sturgeon by offering you a vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations is essentially offering you a lifeline, ONE CHANCE to reverse the economic carnage that will engulf this country, the first burning embers of which we are already witnessing in this f#cked up UK.

    That is all Nicola Sturgeon is saying. With IndyRef2 here’s an opportunity to get things (more or less) back to normal by maintaining our strong social and economic ties with the EU. Now – why would you spurn such a golden offer to save yourself and your family’s future? Is it because you are just f#cking stupid or that you just hate the f#cking Essennpee?

    Why not simply accept Sturgeon’s referendum on the final Brexit Deal and quietly keep it tucked away in your back pocket – JUST IN CASE you might decide you actually need the damn thing. No one is going to force you to vote to leave the UK and become Indy within the EU. You can bloody well VOTE NO to it. Are you afraid of having IndyRef2 because you are too scared to vote NO a second time? Well what if you think the Brexit deal is the baddest deal ever and you change your mind? Wouldn’t you like to at least have a contingency plan in your back pocket just in case that happens?

    Most sensible people WOULD. Why not at least hedge your bets? That is all Nicola Sturgeon is offering you – a potential way out of what could be a very bad situation for you and your family which may bring you to a change of mind (as many former NO voters now are).

    The EU is not perfect but the UK is a damned sight worse. The EU countries pool some of their sovereignty with each other for the benefit of everyone. The UK suppresses your sovereignty for the benefit of London and The Establishment. They do not care about you or your family. Can you imagine the EU President saying to David Cameron about the Brexit referendum: “No David. Now is not the time.”

    The EU simply could NEVER interfere in such national decisions of the UK nor of an independent Scotland within the EU. But the UK, however, can indeed tell Scotland “Now is not the time”. THAT shows you precisely how undemocratic the UK is and how democratic the EU is. The EU is not the problem here (though I concede it is not perfect) – the UK is the problem.

    Rather than supporting Ruth Daidson’s maniacal positon of “No to a 2nd Referendum” and denying yourself a ‘get out of jail free’ card, you should, IN FACT, be DEMANDING that card.

    At least, you would if you were smart. It could very quickly become your only hope. So, why agree with Unionist parties who would prevent you from ever having that choice? To deny yourself that choice, that final say is, to me at least, rampant stupidity on the biggest stilts you could ever find.

    FFS – give yourself a choice. Give yourself a chance.

  60. Sandy says:

    Watching “The LOCK” on ITV. Not a Northern accent to be heard.

  61. heedtracker says:

    To say that the Scottish government ‘were not honest enough with the Scottish public’ making it seem like a future of ‘a land of milk and honey’, absolutely disagree with that. He says that the Scotgov did not tell people about ‘the problems and challenges that lie ahead, there were, potential problems in the early days’. I think his tenses are mixed up there.”

    That’s what made me lol Artyhetty.

    We all know you could NOT move without BBC Scotland alone, hysterically raging at us all on their main subject, how terrible Scotland’s economic future is, unless we’re controlled by our neighbour.

    BBC got more and more hysterical as 18th Sept got closer. Where I was, we had BBC 24 news on and all day, that crew had a Flipper Darling special adviser and Herald ligger seated in their studio’s on the half hour, doing a very hammy act of a poor wee frightened Scottish housewife, from the 50’s, in her wee mac, shaking with fear at independence and, “Alex Salmond cant even tell us what money will be in my poor wee Scottish purse tomorrow.”

    Beeb gimps never mentioned that special guest poor wee Scottish house wife from the 50’s is a political editor of The Herald, as well as Flipper Darling’s special adviser. Her son was given a great job in London at the Treasury too, shortly after her Bafta winning performance. Parcel of rogues doesn’t come close.

    Maybe Mr Pia missed all this BBC style economic honesty but he is a spin doctor, academic too:D

  62. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Although the loss of Angus and Alex was and still is a blow I’m now starting to think it may be a price worth paying in the long term for the Independence Movement.

    The Tories who replaced them (as with the rest in ‘The Blue Corner’ of Scotland (Moray, Gordon, Aberdeenshire, Angus)are no where near as adept or experienced.

    And they are now the MPs of the Fishing and Farming communities who are almost certainly going to get sacrificed in the up and coming Brexit Negotiations.

    Sold out by the Tories in the 70s and ever since.

    Looks like this will be the case again.

    Just have to hammer the point home:

    What did they expect they’d get by electing MPs who stood to protect ‘The Union’ before Scotland’s interests.

    Nae doot it’ll be the SNPs fault somehow.

  63. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Another Union Dividend @ 17:01,

    Late on in the day now, but thanks for that prompt to ScotGoesPop upthread. For some weird reason I don’t seem to be able to post btl on his site, but every single word of James’ article was right “on the button”.

    If you haven’t already, definitely worth a read:

  64. yesindyref2 says:

    Simon Pia. Well, I was very impressed with what he said on an Election night result program, so I guess I’m not surprised.

  65. Tinto Chiel says:

    You don’t often post long, PC, but that was worth it.

    We have a doubly-democratic vote on Indyref2 in the bank, waiting to be deployed when Brexit exposes us to the most injurious of consequences. Let us allow it to play out disastrously and then slap it on the table.

    To those Yes supporters who fell for Corbyn’s de-kilted manifesto but who say they will still vote for Yes in a future referendum: if the SNP don’t win a majority in the next Holyrood election, there may not be another referendum. We cannot presume conditions will be favourable before then to push the referendum button, giving the hostility of MSM/BBC.

    Think on, Poindexters.

  66. Phronesis says:

    Now is not the time to show humility- Scotland has been humbled for decades by the WM political setup that has allowed Scotland to be mined for its population and environmental resources whilst an entitled cabal buried Scotland’s true economic worth under layers of mis-truths. It must be psychologically wearying to adopt a deficit model when referencing your own country- a deficiency in economic capability, intellectual talent, environmental potential seems to be to be the eternal message from UKOK to Scotland.

    Now it the time to adopt the practice of ‘kaizen’-resisting the plateau of arrested development. Let’s showcase the gritty resilience, passion and determination that has marked out Scotland’s march to its inevitable independence – as an energised, inclusive educational YES movement that embraces all across the political spectrum. The groundwork was done during the last Indyref campaign and can be re-ignited through the reach of many of its groups that worked tirelessly to engage with all communities across Scotland. Radical Independence, Business for Scotland , NHS YES, Women for Independence, the numerous community YES groups, Common Weal are some who are still going strong.

    The young voters in England have contributed to causing a major upset to the WM elite and their toxic media system- they are to be congratulated and appear to be on a similar journey that Scotland’s electorate was on two years ago. Despite a coordinated campaign that spent millions of pounds of dark money to establish a tawdry political alliance that will ensure that the UKOK’s kudos on the world stage will plummet (who would align themselves with an organisation whose policies are so last century) the electorate in England woke up and demanded something different. People power defined by hope wherever it finds expression does actually work and will do so again in the cause of Scotland’s independence.

  67. ian murray says:

    With the possibility of another election and the possibility that Labour could win.Will the Tories include Labour in the Brexit negotiations just in case they have to take over?

  68. yesindyref2 says:

    Many years ago, the 70s, I used to reckon the UK was 5 years behind the US, and Scotland was 5 years behind London and the South-East. Well, in terms of technology and business attitudes, that’s not true any more, and in some ways we’re ahead.

    But it’s resistance to change was behind that, and that’s one of the reasons for the NO vote. But if we take 2014 as the start point for when the most people thought about Indy in a serious way, add the 5 years reistance to change we get – 2019.

    Which fits in perfectly for IndyRef2 in early 2019.

    And by the way, it’s time the YES movement took control – and took back the naming of the next referendum.

    It’s flaming Indy Ref 2.

  69. Artyhetty says:


    The bridge is nice, but 400 years old must mean it was built before the act of so called union just over 300 years ago.

    Just not surprised on ebit that the oil capital of Europe has been kept a wee bit, in the dark ages re infrastructure. The unionists would not have it any other way for too wee,and poor Scotland.

  70. heedtracker says:

    Artyhetty says:
    11 June, 2017 at 10:05 pm

    Its been such an odd place Aberdeen and the North East under unionist control, investment wise. ACC has always been a realm of yoons but they’ve run up a £1.2 bn debt on absolutely fcuk all. Pumping that kind of money in new bridges and roads over the decades or even more wild and wacky, social care and social housing would at least show something for so much debt.

    Even in the early oil boom times for Aberdeen, the built a new airport from scratch because they had to, but you cant get to it, except by the old Victorian country road to Inverurie.

    They built the air port terminal on the other side of the runway from Dyce train station, so the only way to the heliports is taxi and cars. The bus service was non existent, for decades.

    Taxi drivers frae Aberdeen send their kids to Eton and Harrow. To cap all that, as soon as SNP won a decade ago, all we heard from yoon owned ACC was how the catastrophic mess of roads and rail in Aberdeen was all the fault of you know who in Holyrood.

    But as my old grandad says, we manage. Head south to England and every town and city has a 21st C road transport network, dual carriageways, motorways, endlessly upgraded, new routes added all the time. Now they’re getting HS2!

    So to cap all that, last week, assorted tory dingdongs just kicked out the two MP’s who’ve devoted their careers to getting Aberdeen and the north east of Scotland, at least somewhere out of the 1950’s and maybe only 30 years behind England and the rest of Europe.

  71. Free Scotland says:

    The DUP could insist on Nigel Farage (who is a freemason) having a role in Brexit negotiations.

    Who was the last person to make such a suggestion? That’s right, Donald Trump (who is a freemason).

    Interesting that Theresa May went to the count in Maidenhead dressed in bright orange.

  72. Chick McGregor says:

    What I suspect has happened, as I said earlier, is this.

    SLAB with around 15% prior to the GE were left largely with a hard core Britnat support.

    What I think may well have happened for this GE, is that a large contingent of those have transferred to Ruth Davidson’s union coalition this time.

    Therefore the total number of ‘socialist first’, in recent times SNP voters, which have been lured back to Labour due to Corbyn, is the 3% SLAB increase they have seen in the election PLUS the whatever percentage was required to replace the Union coalissionists (is that a word?).

    In other words, I now suspect that the pertcentage of SLAB voters in this election who are also indy friendly will be much higher now than it has been for some considerable time.

    Party support breakdown polls may soon reveal whether that is correct or not.

    If it is correct, then that in itself creates interesting possibilities, for example, a growing grassroots pressure on the Unionist Labour leadership to embrace independence or at least allow elected representatives a genuine freedom to choose what they think re independence.

  73. yesindyref2 says:

    @Chick McGregor
    I agree, and posted similar in Herald. Some constituencies will have different reasons though, particualrly the NE.

  74. Simon curran says:

    Re. Heedtracker@10.21
    I was speaking to a mate of mine today who comes from Aberdeen, moved to the States now lives down south. Says he loved growing up there but wouldn’t go back as there’ll be nothing left when the oil runs out. I’m not sure that reflects well on local government or UK government.
    I’m sure it rankles the Rev that in this age of multi million pound transfer dealings the Dons record fee is only £1 million and that’s over 20 years ago, seems somehow symbolic. Oil capital of Europe but hasn’t really benefited as much as you would have expected.

  75. Andy White says:

    My main worry is that, due to the Conservative terror of holding another election, this scabby coalition will try to hold together for a long time. We have to hope it falls apart, as I can’t see a Section 30 being approved by the DUP while it persists.

  76. Tory Manifesto 2017 page 21,

    `North Sea oil has provided more than £300,000,000,000 in tax to Westminster`,

    Aberdeen as Oil Capital of Europe could have become one of the great modern World Cities (not sayin its bad as it is),

    instead, because of lies and complicit uncle tams, we just gave our future away to rebuild England`s capital.

  77. cirsium says:

    @Legerwood, 9.13
    Pile all those 35 MPs into a bus and head down to South Queensferry for a photo op in front of that beautiful bridge.

    The SNP won. Act like it.

    Well said, Legerwood

  78. Proud Cybernat says:

    “We have to hope it falls apart, as I can’t see a Section 30 being approved by the DUP while it persists.”

    Let them reject it. And let the people of Scotland know that they are effectively being held hostage by a bunch of religious zealots with links to paramilitary (paramilitory) outfits.

    That’ll really go down well in Scotland.

    FM dissolves Holyrood, calls Scottish GE and stands full square on an Indy ticket. How will WM & the DUP stop that? And in those circumstances, WM & the DUP gangsters will, with their supression of democracy, ensure that YES will gain a thumping victory.

    So, the smart thing from their point of view would be to grant S30 order.

  79. Legerwood says:

    heedtracker @ 10.21

    I agree with you- I know shocker – about Aberdeen.

    I had never been there apart from passing through in the early 1970s before the oil. A couple of years ago I decided to visit Aberdeen and spend a couple of days there.

    I have never been so disappointed in any city or town I have visited as I was in Aberdeen on that visit. There were one or two small pockets that were nice. Out by the University. The long esplanade between Don and Deep but overall it was awful.

    No one would ever believe it was ‘the Oil Capital of Europe’.

    Where did all the money go?

  80. Chick McGregor says:

    The longer it holds together the better in my book. OK an ‘unapproved’ referendum might have to be held, but the alternative of a UK progressive alliance Government which requires SNP support, while making an ‘approved’ referendum more likely, would make the winning of it much less likely. In fact, I do not think the SNP Government would countenance holding one in that scenario.

  81. Ken500 says:

    The pygmy Tory/Unionists will get the backlash in the NE for their corruption and criminality. The majority in the NE are in shock and horror. In disbelief Total disgusted because of the Tory/Unionist lies. The best politican ever, admired the world over has been displaced in the NE. The NE is in mourning. The Tory/Unionist will suffer the major backlash ever for their lies. More Unionist crooked politicians who have never done anything for the NE but been in the take. Embezzling and wasting public money. Ignoring the majority wishes. Cheating on electoral expenses. Even when there is an investigation. They just get away with it. The Unionist cover up. Wasteful unnecessary overpriced contracts given to their cahoots and cronies. Essential services, education, welfare, social services etc cut and slashed. No proper bus services, A groteque expensive, plush unnecessary headquarters for their tea and cakes. Hospitality so they can feed their face at the trough. The usual corruption.

    Every investment etc that came to the NE came because of Alex Salmond. Every improve and essential service was accomplished due to his efforts. Accomplished After 40 years of Unionist total and complete and utter neglect. While £Billions of Oil revenues went south. The Tories/Unionist illegal high Oil taxes have ruined the Oil sector and lost jobs, The Tory/Unionists will suffer a major backlash. They are already totally despised. May, Westminster, the Tory and Unionists crooks ruining the world economy.

    The DUP crooks have been backing the Tories in Westminster since 1928. The British State ruined and Partitioned Ireland and supported these crooks. Most of them should be in jail. Instead of ripping off and stealing UK public money. Majorly overfunded to keep them quiet, while they illegally persecute others and break UK/International Law. Breaking the Law with impunity. Foster is a crook. Has illegally funded her cohorts and cronies with illegal grotesque schemes etc. Illegally threatening other people. Bigoted, criminals. Discrimination. Absolutely appalling. They get away it. A Unionist cover up.

  82. Ken500 says:

    Does Holyrood not have fixed term Parliament. Imposed by Unionists (when it suits them)

  83. Robert Graham says:

    Just read that f/kr Kelly of Labour on the BBC website , they should get back to the day job, now where have we heard that from before ? , And that arshole says the SNP have been woeful in government, I will tell you what’s bloody woeful yah tosser , do you want a list let’s start with PFI , i could go on the list is that bloody long , they couldn’t even get their leader Jeremy over the finishing line down south for f/kn it up , up here, oh aye vote Tory who thought that belter up . A useless party with no idea what they are it would have been kinder if they had lost all their MPs on Thursday, that would have spared us the bloody wining death rattle when they do finally expire .

  84. Ken500 says:

    Many major football clubs get £Millions of public funding. (Unfair competition?). Aberdeen FC were given £14 Million by a couple of supporters a few years ago. It paid off their debt. Stewart Milne (used to?) guarantee any debt. They don’t get much of the (public) funding other Clubs get. No tax schemes. They do comparatively well. Most of the major UK Clubs are carrying massive debts. Off the scale. Out of the league.

  85. heedtracker says:

    Legerwood, Simon curran, Aberdeen is an awful yoon culture legacy, with giant debts. No investment but giant debt is probably highlighted by the AWPR by-pass, in that it was blocked for decades, or ignored, and now its shows just how badly it was needed, 40 years ago.

    Union Street looks like the aftermath of war, once glorious beach boulevard is horrifying to see, god awful post modern eyesores are being thrown up, see the great Wullie Young Marischal College £100+ million white elephant, yoons dumped giant PFI debt on Aberdeen for a school rebuild that was the most expensive in the world of finance, and simple renovation was all that they needed.

    Wullie Young ran up so much debt in the City, it was used as an indy weapon by Aberdeen yoons, in that the City spivs said that they probably wouldn’t be lending ACC any more money, if we voted YES, its that barking mental. That’s how Aberdeen actually learned of their £1.2bn debt, the spivs that loaned and the yoons like Wullie that pissed it all away, have both started using it, as a political NO weapon.

    But there is hope. Look at Dundee today, they’ve transformed their city just with a bit of thought, intelligent design, rational affordable spends, at their Tay front. It looks stunning already and their future looks great. Lucky sods. It makes you want to weep, if you’re from Aberdeen. Wullie Young’s minted though.

  86. Ken500 says:

    The Scottish Gov doesn’t need Westminster approval for a Referendum. It already has a mandate that the voters been approved in Holyrood business. It just has to come to agreement in the administration, date etc. Just as a courtesy. The legislation – legal framework – set up – guide – seems to take a while. Scottish legal requirement. That is why there was such a gap between the Indy Ref being proposed. Arrangements made. The date being so far in advance in the calendar. Could it be because of the Holyrood precedures calendar. Marked up with other proceeding business.

  87. robert esqierdo says:

    Slow but sure it will prevail

  88. Meg merrilees says:

    Who says ‘my vote doesn’t count’:

    This is a true story…

  89. Still Positive says:

    The SNP should use their former MPs to set up a Council/Committee to find a way forward for Scottish independence.

    Ditch the Spads in suits as Craig Murray says.

  90. Meindevon says:

    Just got back from a wee break to find I’m going to spend a lot of time explaining sectarianism and what the DUP really stands for to my naive and unknowing friends and neighbours! The best thing about being down here is that nobody gives a monkeys what religion you are (as in Protestant or Catholic). Church of England kids go to Catholic schools and vice versa. No questions asked.

    They really do not get what this means. Neither do they understand the implications for NI and the Good Friday Agreement. I suspect, sadly, they soon will.

    Whilst here can someone help me with why no one is mentioning EVEL with regard to the Scottish Tories and the DUP? Surely this is important in that they might not be able to vote with the government on England only issues. Why do they even get counted in Tory numbers if they can’t always vote? Is it because we always said that actually there are very few English only issues in Westminster maybe? Any help gratefully received.

    (Also anecdotally I was facebooking an old Labour friend in Scotland today and she was disgusted with the rise in Tory vote and also the mess in Westminster. She said she voted No last time but will probably be Yes next time due to the chaos and wanting to be in the EU! )

  91. boomshanka says:

    2 words : FUCK OFF. Again, thanks to arseholes like this we are in the mess we are in now…

  92. Sandy says:

    Free Scotland @ 10.24 PM

    Free masonary has damn all to do with the orange lodge bigots. Please, do some research before you make sweeping statements.
    That is how Unionist parties put doubts in the minds of politically uneducated Scottish voters.

  93. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Meindevon. evel doesnt mean anything at the moment as the tories have a majority of english seats. And the evel part of it is actually a veto for english mps at the first reading stage. After this any bill that goes forward is voted on by all mps. So in reality the only likely scenario is a Lab gov with a majority of mps (but a minority of english mps) putting a bill down which the tories (with their engish majority) can then veto.

    Lallands peat worrier did a post on it which is where I’ve found the above. The above is from memory but that should be the gist of it as I understand it.

  94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    heedtracker @ 23:41,

    Tell me about it. I haven’t been back for a while now that the older folks are all gone, but it’s everything that you said and more. It really does break my heart.

    Legerwood asked what happened – well, it was the usual neoliberal disease: private wealth and public squalour.

    The Granite City used to be objectively poorer before the oil, but it was all based on a sound economic foundation. Hence the old reputation for being careful with the siller. Now it’s Borrow Central.

    An object lesson in how not to do it. Not least thanks to longstanding (and I do mean decade after decade after decade!) idiot Labour administrations, damn them all.

  95. BJ says:

    Whilst here can someone help me with why no one is mentioning EVEL with regard to the Scottish Tories and the DUP?

    Many voters in England have no idea the shit storm about to arrive if this pact goes ahead.

    I think EVEL will be the least of their worries in Westminster. Although that is a question that will be interesting to hear the answer.

  96. Molly says:

    Having been to Stuttgart and passed the arena size car showrooms, one the saddest thing about a visit to Aberdeen ( three years ago) was coming to a roundabout ( near the AECC and a sign on the small roundabout said ” oil capitol of Europe”.

    A small cardboard sign.

    In Aberdeen Councils case” lack of money is no obstacle, lack of an idea, is an obstacle”.

  97. yesindyref2 says:

    EVEL has been mentioned in the media “The DUP” won’t be able to vote on that”, but I think it’s a red herring.

    Wales – Con 8, Lab + PC 32. Con = -24.
    Scotland – Con 13, SNP + Lab+ LibDem 46. Con = -33.

    England – Con 287, Lab + LibDem + Green 236. Con = +51.

    Con Majority on EVEL = 51 (minus 1 for speaker maybe).

    However, after the committee and EVEL stages it goes to a full vote, so DUP would be needed to get a majority then, and they could refuse while the rest of us be nasty to the Tories!

  98. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Alan Mackintosh @ 00:47,
    Meindevon @ 00:00,

    Since it looks like we are getting a “strong & stable” =cough= Tory UKGov supported by a bunch of NI extremists (yes, real extremists), it works the other way round. The Tories can easily propose English-only laws with their inbuilt southern majority, but they might struggle at the last stage to get them passed through the whole Commons.

    Just think about a handful of rebel Tories…

    … or the effect of the eventual serious illness or (Heaven forfend!) decease of one or two Tory MPs in marginal constituencies. We could be back to the last days of the Callaghan government, where MPs were bodily carted out of hospital on stretchers to vote in WM…

  99. yesindyref2 says:

    Doing NI

    DUP 10
    SF 7
    Other 1 (no idea!)

    So overall Commons majority = 4 (+ or – speaker, who would be elected I think in the opening session?)

    You’ve gorra laugh

  100. yesindyref2 says:

    England Con 297 not 287, that’s where I went wrong.

  101. yesindyref2 says:

    England Con 297 not 287, that’s where I went wrong.

    Don’t know if anyone’s commented on this, but for the first time for a long time England is dependent on NI and Scotland. We know how it feels to be dragged along by the opposite party from what we voted for, but England is going to go beresk.

    I expect to see growing support for an English Parliament, and for booting out Scotland, and NI as well probably.

    The Union may well end with England and we can sit back and do – nothing.

  102. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:21:

    Other 1 (no idea!)

    Lady Sylvia Hermon, independent.

    She used to be UUP, on the more liberal wing of that party in its heyday, but quit over a previous cosying-up of that party to the Tories. Has a large personal following that has stuck with her ever since.

    So, Unionist but perhaps unlikely to co-operate with the Tories, but that’s just my wild guess…

  103. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:48,

    More in fond hope rather than expectation, I have said at least once before that the English might get so fed up of us that they might eventually offer us a deal to leave the UK (and thereby avoid much of the loss of face of us departing). It might well please ordinary English Daily Heil readers, but those in UKGov who presumably know our true contribution to their coffers would absolutely squash any such notion in horror.

    Attrition over such matters as the Great Repeal Bill may be what Nicola was planning next, and the anticipation of some such “guerrila tactics” may even be what sent May over the edge. So one may still hope..! =laugh=

  104. carjamtic says:

    Opinions are like arseholes,everybody’s got one and for what it’s worth here’s mine.

    In an Independant Scotland, there will be more than one party up for elections,correctomondo ?

    Now is the time to form these parties,it is time to break the mould,time for a democratic expansion,if for nothing else to provide an opportunity to rebalance the media and give voters a greater choice.

    As the unionist parties regress,become more divisive and mould into one,(conning voters with their anti democratic pacts) Scotland must make democratic progress,it must return democracy back to voters.

    Nicola Sturgeon is doing a world class job and is deserving of all of our support,my message to her is to keep on doing,what your doing,my message to her support team,grrr.

    Who is going to form the first new party ? I think the folk,that will do it,already know who they are,it is time to stop hiding.

    A second vote on Scottish Independance ? this is being framed by the unionist parties as a thumb’s up or down decision to be made by NS.

    The message I am getting from NS is let the people decide and not unsurprising,people do like choice,the unionist parties and the BBC/MSM clearly don’t.

    So I say three cheers for Nicola Sturgeon,Indyvote2 bring it on,it is time for another Scottish political party and for some,it is time for redemption.

  105. defo says:

    Re Supposed SNP media weakness in the face of pro-uk media bias.

    Someone mentioned ‘sending out the attack dogs’ to face questioning.
    I’m afraid Attack dogs are the last thing the enemy want, and so unfairly enough, isn’t overly keen to invite them to give their views/the game away.
    Not dissimilar to the 100% ( now is not the time) chance of winning a referendum that isn’t held desperation strategy.
    Trying to get a message out through press conferences, to an audience of aforementioned pro-uk media whores…

    You could stun them into life with links to non daily heil type sources, an’ shit, but then the juju is strong with them, and he who pays the piper…

    Those invited, and also those obliged to speak ?
    Well maybe they could insist on prearranged questions, and on which they will comment, ala TM.
    Nicola should insist on being interviewed before a montage of images, from Culloden & its subsequences, to the Clearances, Ravenscraig (mid fall), Jimmy Saville tonguing Betty & Maggie, the wee girl who outflagged the two unimongs apre No day, to the Saltire flying above Edinburgh Castle…and on a massive central screen,Archie Gemmils 1978 goal, on a loop.
    A red line, no playee issue.

    As for prearranged questions…

    The broadcaster at FMQ’s must be able find a way to convey source links to claims made by MSP’s.
    MSP’s should be obliged to submit, in the yoon case, their shit. Pre smear.
    (Heil rules apply here too).
    n.b. Emergency questions could circumvent this, but then that depends on what you define as an ’emergency’.

    Beware stirrers. There’s a bitter tasting reason the likes of Sillars and co are the way they are.
    This perceived weakness on fundamental questions and issues being driven in the media, drummed up on the back of what was actually a relatively successful election, given the timescale, has brought a right rash of shysters out.

    Lots of peeps who are probably just impatient really too.
    Steady the horses.

    Here’s a different example of the effects of the establishments desperate, hubristic attempts to retain their grip.
    TM waffling for Billy O.

  106. defo says:

    Softening up the already softened…

    “The UK’s highest court will temporarily move from its London home to Edinburgh this week.
    The Supreme Court will sit in the City Chambers – normally home to the City of Edinburgh Council – until Thursday.
    It is the first time it has sat outside London in its eight-year history.
    Lord Neuberger, the president of the Supreme Court, said the move provided an opportunity for members of the public and lawyers to observe the workings of the court first-hand.
    A panel of five judges, including Lord Neuberger, are expected to hear three cases over the four days they are in the Scottish capital.
    “Sham marriages” I Thought this would be about the Act of Union, but…
    “They include a case about sham marriages and another relating to national planning policy.”

    That’ll show the sweaties who’s really in charge.

    More softening up. Auntie is talking in funereal tones about TM’s upcoming, uncomfortable meeting with the capitalists of the 1922 committee.
    Gone by Lunchtime ?
    I’ll give you 3/1 Stu 😉

  107. willie fae kilwinning says:

    Morning all,

    had a wee conversation last night with a neighbour re snp, brexit oil, etc.

    He is of the too wee, too poor, too stupid brigade.

    He laughed when he said that even Ferguslie Park had tories now.

    Looking for he link that was on here re boundary of Ferguslie Park.

    Thanks in advance.

  108. defo says:

    From CM blog, a few posts back, so you probs wouldn’t see reply…
    For example purposes only.
    June 10, 2017 at 11:05
    “2,700 votes is all that stand between those Tory seats being SNP.”

    “It wasn’t that the Tory vote surged, it was that a large part of the SNP support sat on its hands and did not vote. Because the SNP got the campaign wrong. It failed to enthuse the support to get out and vote for it.

    Apathy won the election here in Scotland.”

    Reply ?
    June 12, 2017 at 06:30
    Unless you know otherwise, I was sure this was a snap jobbie, so some allowance must be made for any lacking in planning and strategy. It wouldn’t be beyond the realms of possibility, that derailing Ref 2 was a strong push in the decision to make this foolhardy move.
    When the MSM are capable of setting the agenda for you, and infect public opinion against personalities with their demonizing shtick, is it any wonder some ditherers and soft Yes’s were seduced by their eau du pish.

    Unionists voted that way, as they were guided, to by the unremitting ‘Stop the Ref at any price’ omni-mantra.
    Nationalists voted for representation at Westmidden.
    And then there was Corbyn !
    We’re still sitting comfy for Yes, the timing of any 2nd referendum is in actual fact in our competence anyway, and WILL NOT be put on the back burner.
    Brexit hasn’t gone away, and if nothing else, ‘events’ seem to be happening at an exponential rate of late. NHS England seems to be now in a semi permanent, imminent state of (intentional) collapse, economic indicators are headed south, STABILITY is a running joke, our enemies are floundering in ongoing internal combustion

    Watch what happens when the Brexit implications start to hammer home, week after week. CAP repercussions, Law, Security, Human rights & the Big Brother thang, TRADE inhibitors, A scientific & educational exodus, to accompany seasonal, service, health & factory worker replacement, restrictions & barriers to the movement of European leaning Brits and Europeans, and the ‘exemptions’. (The financial heart of darkness will have first dibs)
    Hold steady, stop frightening the horses big man. ?

    “2,700 votes is all that stand between those Tory seats being SNP.”
    With the Yoons over playing the no indy ref ticket, to the n…
    You could flip this on its head, and say 2,700 was a representation of the weakness & fragility of Project fear 2’s current position.

  109. defo says:

    More hasty u turns in Queens speech, than a box set of Starsky & Hutch, and the Donalds state visit isn’t getting a mensh either.

    Brenda probably bargain binned him, for saying the rest of what the 1922 tell May to write, with a straight face.

    “My Government… ” cringing at the though of that awful fact, and knowing that it won’t be for very long probs anyhoo.
    Guilt, by association.

  110. Free Scotland says:

    @Sandy at 12:29 am

    You claim the orange order has nothing to do with freemasonry. You are the one who needs to do some research:

    James Wilson was probably the most influential of the founding fathers of Orangeism and was an ardent Freemason. Respected Orange historian R.M. Sibbett records, “Wilson was a member of the Society of Freemasons, which fully qualified him for establishing a new Order of a secret character.”

  111. Robert Louis says:

    Legerwood at 0913am

    Pile all those 35 MPs into a bus and head down to South Queensferry for a photo op in front of that beautiful bridge.

    The SNP won. Act like it.

    YES. Best suggestion since Friday, by anybody. Get it done. In front of the NEW bridge by the SNP SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT, which Labour desribed as a vanity project. And I must say, it is beautiful.

    Then do it at Westminster as well. 🙂 🙂

  112. heedtracker says:

    More softening up. Auntie is talking in funereal tones about TM’s upcoming, uncomfortable meeting with the capitalists of the 1922 committee.”

    BBC r4 toryboy Today show gimp, demands Labour get behind/work with Mayhem now, in some kind of for the good of the country Brexit EU commission thing. Why did tories go for an opposition crushing GE again?

    Another day of great BBC tory propaganda farts into action. Macron’s winning in France too. What a bunch of BBC it all is.

  113. Feel_loon says:

    Caught an ex DUP manny getting interviewed on 5live on way home this morning
    As abhorrent as they are I will give him this
    As soon as the Beeb lassie started asking about policy of DUP he basically told her it had nothing to do with her or Westminster because it was a devolved matter for NI government

    If only we could stop them framing the debate like that

  114. Luigi says:

    Steady folks!

    Hold the line. We took a painful beating last week, and people need to let off steam. However, time to let it go – further indulging in the blame game helps no one but our enemies. We are still standing, with a triple lock on the next indyref. Ruthie’s quick move to distance from May on DUP shows she is highly vulnerable on this issue.

    Nicola Sturgeon has done as good a job as was possible. The timing of the Indyref vote in SP was unfortunate, but who could have foreseen Turkey May voting for Christmas? Events, dear chap, events. The Scottish government has been caught up in events not of its making and last week was caught in a classic pincer between fearful NO voters and hopeful Corbynites. Throw in disgruntlement with Scottish Brexiteers and a disgraceful media, we have to say that Nicola did well limiting the damage. Losing Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson was awful, but believe me, it could have been a lot worse.

    In the long indy term, last week changes nothing. In fact it could be argued that Nicola is in a stronger position because she has much needed breathing space. As other folk have mentioned, WM vote has no bearing on the next referendum – that is safely now in the bank, ready to fire at a time of our choosing. Momentum is of course important, and we may take a few more hits if there is another GE this year. However, there is a monster of a BREXIT storm heading this way – no one can predict what the landscape will be like when the dust settles, but the integrity of the the UK will be tested as never before.

    The storm is coming – time to batten down the hatches and see it out. Hold the line folks. Now is not the time to loose nerve. Stay focussed and disciplined, and please be patient. It’s still coming!

    Hold the like. 🙂

  115. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good morning. Overcast and windy today. Thank you for your links.
    Kettle’s on! Peace Always. 🙂

  116. Nana says:

    Given speculation re Davidson’s views on Brexit it’s worth a reminder of words in *Scottish* Con manifesto

    Repercussions of Tory/DUP deal ‘severe for Northern Ireland’

    New publication by HansardSociety on parliament and minority government.

  117. Dr Jim says:

    We’re about to get shafted:

    I’m afraid that contrary to what Simon Pia thinks I have a strong feeling that both Tory and Labour will join together on the one important thing that unites them, the destruction of the SNP and that will start immediately with attempts to sideline the SNP on every issue and create the idea of the irrelevance of the SNP and I hope the SNP don’t play their game by trying to push it and look weak for not succeeding

    Holyrood’s the place to do to the Unionists what they’re going to try to do to us in Westminster
    My feeling is Nicola Sturgeon needs to go into full attack mode, not this consensual line that hasn’t been working

    It’s time to make the opposition look totally stupid by using the boastful attitude they’re about to display and go for the full MMA, and as far as the media is concerned tell them nothing, no interviews, starve them, but do it nicely with promises of, soon, we’ll do an announcement soon, oh definitely very soon, probably tomorrow, but give them nothing, instead go full digital and facebook

    Get them slammed into submission boss

    Ooops! Forgot to mention, Willie Rennie still thinks he won

    Wee soul

  118. Nana says:

    Good morning Smallaxe. It’s not too bad here, a little overcast but dry so far.

    Nicola is off to London today

    .Nicola Sturgeon in London today calls for #Brexit talks pause to find new four nation, cross-party consensus

    One more link

  119. Iain More says:

    Well I have had a few days to reflect on things and the disgust at the Moray result has only made me more determined to make Indy happen.

    I did so enjoy singing Jimmy Saville he is one of theirs on Saturday at Hampden. I have made it my business to so sicken the English they will want rid of us sooner rather than later.

    Of course I am expecting another GE within a year at most and that the Tories will try to throw it because they don’t want to deal with the Brexit shit that is coming and can blame the Labour Party for it. The effin Tories have probably already cynically set up their buying and selling positions to make a financial killing on the Tories getting a humping at that GE.

    The next Tory PM will be an interim one! I reall6y don’t think they want to deal with the Brexit shit!

  120. Macart says:

    Mornin’ Nana

    First two links are pretty much on the nail. Good addition by Mr Joyce t’boot. 🙂

  121. Iain More says:

    Oh and Brexit doesn’t work if they don’t have Scotland to bleed dry. Not that it is going to work anyway. They have to keep us down at all costs.

    Oh and we cant afford a timid SNP. How many of us have been saying for a long time now that they need to sharpen up their act and communicate better.

  122. Cuilean says:

    I don’t know if people are familiar with ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ showing Sunday nights? It is set in a dystopian America where women are chillingly stripped of all human rights, under a ‘christian’ police state sharia style law.

    Well, back in the real world, just across the water in N Ireland, (whose beautiful Antrim coast I can see from my window on a clear day), the state police there can raid any woman’s home and arrest her for having the ‘morning after’ pill – a perfectly legal form of contraceptive used throughout the world, as taking, even possessing, the morning after pill is a crime in N Ireland! Even if you are not pregnant!

    Abortion in N Ireland is deemed unlawful under law NOT changed since 1861!!!!! Queen Victoria was on the throne then! Vicky would have known all lack of contraception – she (like the lot of most women then) had to have nine children plus a few miscarriages!

    Abortion on demand is a basic human right which British women in the rest of the UK fought hard for & won in 1967, but Victorian times still exist in N Ireland for women there, where abortion is deemed unlawful. It’s shameful.

    N Irish women must travel to England for abortions (or Scotland) but THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR IT, EVEN ON THE NHS!

    The Supreme Court is to judge, this week, on a case brought by a N Irish woman (15 at the time) who had to leave N Ireland for an abortion, claiming this this breached her human rights.

    The case has been ignored (like everything else that happens in N Ireland)! by the UK media. I think last week’s Election might change that… but let’s see if Sarah Smith covers the DUP’s support of anti female rights in N Ireland & if Smith questions Davidson on why her Tory party is happily slipping ‘into bed’, politically, with such an anti-womens’ rights, anti-LGBT rights party.

    I rather doubt that Sarah Smith, Jackie Bird etc. etc. and their yoon zealots at BBC Scotland will want to draw too much attention to the DUP monsters Scotland’s Tory voters may have helped into power on 8th June 2017!

    Here’s the law for women seeking an abortion under N Ireland’s 19th Century legal system! It’s bad. Very bad.(Taken from Marie Stopes site):

    “Abortion is legal in Northern Ireland but only under strict circumstances. The majority of women would still have to travel to England to have access to abortion treatment. If you come to Marie Stopes UK from Northern Ireland, you will have to pay privately for your treatment as you would not be entitled to an NHS abortion in England.

    The criteria to have access to a medical abortion (abortion tablets) in Northern Ireland under the Law are as follows:

    TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER, if the continuance of the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, or would adversely affect her mental or physical health.

    In most cases, the risk of the adverse effect occurring would need to be a probability, but a possibility might be regarded as sufficient if the imminent death of the mother was the potential adverse effect.

    If continuing with the pregnancy would have other serious permanent physical or mental health effects. The adverse effect on her mental or physical health must be a “real and serious” one, and must also be “permanent or long-term”.

    It will always be a question of fact and degree whether the perceived effect of a non-termination is sufficiently grave to warrant terminating the pregnancy in a particular case.

    To receive medical abortion treatment, the pregnancy must be under 9 weeks 4 days gestation. If you have been pregnant for over 9 weeks, you will need to travel to England for surgical treatment.

    If you believe that you might be entitled to medical abortion in Northern Ireland as described above, Marie Stopes UK can offer you a medical assessment over the phone or by appointment in our clinic in Belfast.

    If you believe that you do meet the criteria due to a psychiatric or medical condition, it is crucial that you have evidence of your condition at hand so you can make reference to this during your assessment call with Marie Stopes UK.

    If you have a face-to-face appointment at Marie Stopes UK Belfast, please bring any relevant medical information (written evidence) with you.

    All abortion treatment in Northern Ireland depends on your medical assessment under Northern Irish Law.

    Once completed, you will be informed about the treatment you can have in Northern Ireland or if you need to travel to England to receive treatment.

    Please note that we will need to complete a written consent before treatment if you were to receive treatment with Marie Stopes UK in Northern Ireland or in England.

    Women who do not qualify for treatment under Northern Ireland Laws as listed above, can call Marie Stopes UK on 00 44 345 300 3737 to make an appointment in the UK. ”

    End of Extracted Quotes From Marie Stopes Site

    So a pregnant rape victim in N Ireland? Too bad lassie, it’s God’s punishment/Will! Suck it up!

    I do hope the ‘sisterhood’ of Sarah Smith & Ruth Davidson condemn any government for even thinking about getting into bed with such an obscenely anti-womens’ rights party from the dinosaurs era!

    But, dinna fash, the DUP, as well as not believing in womens’ rights or gay rights also don’t believe in dinosaurs either! According to them, the world was created in just 7 days and schools should teach this. Anything else is blasphemy….Piss off, Darwin.

    Over to you, Ruth….

  123. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says:

    this consensual line that hasn’t been working

    That’s the conclusion I have come to. At the time it may have been a good plan (seeking compromise single market membership) on the assumption it would have been rejected by nasty hard Tory Brexiteers.

    However now it is starting to look like that didn’t work out too well. Some support stayed at home, some was attracted by Corbyn, and the tartan Tories of the NE went home.

    I now believe the SNP should at some point take a hard line of Remain means remain in the EU and that will need Indy. Don’t rush to it. The dust of the election is far from settled. The makeup of the WM government is unknown. However if it remain hard Brexit, DUP backed, then we need to be assertive.

    WM may however move to a softer approach. That changes things again!

  124. Nana says:

    Good morning Macart.

    I’m ashamed to say there are tartan tories in my own family [thankfully not close family] selfish people who covet money above all things. It’s very difficult to keep a cool head and a tight lip when talking with them. I know once brexit comes along and the purse strings need tightening, they will be the first to screech.

    I spoke with a pal yesterday who reads wings, he told me yesterday’s comments left him feeling very down.

    Let’s see more positivity and less of the negative folks. We have come this far, we must not falter now.

    Negativity from yessers plays right into the unionists hands, they want us at each other’s throats. Divisive tactics are very much on their agenda.

  125. Shinty says:

    O/T Could someone please explain how TM Gov. managed to get around holding this election.

    From Nana’s link Hansard Society p5
    ‘Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011 is legally binding.2 MPs cannot ignore or depart from its requirements unless they are willing to break the law’

    I know someone mentioned it before, but don’t know how they got around it.


  126. Ken500 says:

    Brexiteer crook Gove back to flood the airways. Corrupt Murdoch’s mate. A major switch off. Do they never learn. Sicking. How longer can this farce cobble on. The ‘psycho bastards’. Causing a depression.

    Westminster is now in control of extreme right wing DUP criminals who break UK with impunity, and have done for nearly 100 years bring down the world economy. Causing a depression. Disgusting.

  127. Puzzled Puss says:

    I agree with many posters on here that a ‘soft’ Brexit tends to undermine the case for Indyref2.

    I suspect, however, that a soft Brexit is a lot more difficult to achieve than a hard Brexit, and I would question whether Mrs. May and co. have the negotiating skills required to get a soft Brexit. (Bearing in mind that the clock is already ticking.)

  128. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sandy says: 12 June, 2017 at 12:29 am:

    “Free masonary has damn all to do with the orange lodge bigots. Please, do some research before you make sweeping statements.”

    While you are correct that the two organisations are different organs, Sandy, they are both evil and discriminatory in nature and thus both should be equally abhorred. I worked over 50 years in the MOD and the promotional chances of non-masonic employees in both the civilian and services were always dominated by Free Masonry.

    Any system that chooses to promote people because they belong to a particular organisation is not only not good business practice but is counter productive and prevents the best possible people gaining control within whatever business they are involved in.

    That includes the armed services, security services, private enterprise, political parties, sports organisations and the churches.

  129. Ken500 says:

    They got around it – Fixed Parliament by raising a motion in Westminster to change the policy. To hold an election. The Unionists at Westminster voted it through. Just as a Corbyn/Labour Unionists voted through or abstained on every illegal austerity measure the Tories proposed. To starve and sanction vulnerable people. Cut the NHS/Education and welfare budget. Spend £Billions of borrowed money on illegal dangerous Hinkley Point and HS2 waste of money, Trident etc. Scottish funds are having to pay for the debts encurred. Against the majority wishes in Scotland.

    While the Scottish economy faces Unionist neglect. Illegal 40% tax on the Oil sector losing thousands of jobs. Corbyn/Labour could have voted Cameron down earlier. The situation could have been more early contained but decided to hold a massive infight instead. To massage their massively inflated egos. In total contempt for the public. Adding to the chaos.

    Davidson actions will be short lived. Her lies are already being found out.

  130. Smallaxe says:

    Nana says:
    12 June, 2017 at 9:00 am

    “Let’s see more positivity and less of the negative folks. We have come this far, we must not falter now.”

    Well said, Nana, we can state and debate our positions, that’s what Wings is for but can we please stop with the name calling and insulting each other, the unionists will be delighted if they see us arguing and fighting amongst ourselves.That is their goal.

    Peace to All Wingers

  131. Shinty says:

    Ken 500 – thanks for that. Was confused as the document above is dated June 2017.

  132. Donald Bruce says:

    Put the country first has not been considered by past UK governments where is the infrastructure investment for a non oil North East. Unlike Norway

  133. Song42 says:

    Thanks for the links Nana 🙂

  134. Nana says:


    You are very welcome. Hoping the weather is nicer where you are, clouding over here and it’s very clammy.

  135. Jack Murphy says:

    Feel_loon said at 7:44am today:-
    “Caught an ex DUP manny getting interviewed on 5live on way home this morning
    As abhorrent as they are I will give him this

    As soon as the Beeb lassie started asking about policy of DUP he basically told her it had nothing to do with her or Westminster because it was a devolved matter for NI government

    If only we could stop them framing the debate like that”

    YES—-the same thing happened on BBC Radio 4 Today programme this morning—the DUP man told interviewer it’s a devolved matter—-move on,and the interviewer did exactly that!

    The DUP man was given a ‘soft interview’ by the BBC from Broadcasting House,London.

    Probably because the DUP is not seen as a threat to the BBC’s beloved strong and stable Establishment Union—–

    My opinions of the BBC down there and up here are unprintable.

  136. yesindyref2 says:

    On the other hand, those 13 Tories from Scotland are going to have to perform, and to do that they’re going ot have to rock the boat and upset a lot of the English Tories – and the Brexiteers, like the far right media and those who post on them.

    It’s popcorn time – again 🙂

  137. Petra says:

    @ Smallaxe says at 9:37 am …. Nana says at 9:00 am …. “Let’s see more positivity and less of the negative folks. We have come this far, we must not falter now.”

    Well said, Nana, we can state and debate our positions, that’s what Wings is for but can we please stop with the name calling and insulting each other, the unionists will be delighted if they see us arguing and fighting amongst ourselves. That is their goal. Peace to All Wingers.

    Totally agree and would like to add that I can’t thank Nicola and her team enough for all they have done for us. She’s worked her butt off for us and the least we can do now is support her. Support her to carry on as planned.

    I’ve just seen her on the news and she looks totally shattered, ill in fact. Let’s hope that she gets some respite, dusts herself down and gets back on form.

  138. Geronimo says:

    When I first joined the SNP at the age of 17 (fifty years ago) the attraction at that time was that no matter what your parties colours were the offer was “Scotland First”. I have maintained that ever since.
    Mr Pia speaks sense …if independence is the goal then “normal” politics is put to one side and our voice supports the SNP. Unless that happens potentially the headway made over recent times could be lost so the message must reach out to members of other parties.

  139. Macart says:

    @Nana 9.00am

    Well said.

  140. Legerwood says:

    Cuilean @ 8.54

    Just a couple of points to add to your post about NI and abortion.

    The first is about the two children cap on tax credits and the rape clause exemption. As we all know in order to complete the form a woman has to tell a third party about her rape. In NI, however, if you tell a 3rd party you have been raped then they are supposed to report it to the authorities.

    The NCC1 form they have to fill in has a version specifically for Northern Ireland which states that ‘normally’ the third party would have to report it. A great word that – normally.

    Second point on women coming to UK, NHS England, thanks to Jeremy Hunt, operates a residency condition on women wanting free abortions so women from NI don’t qualify. I believe there has been a legal challenge to that ruling but don’t know the outcome.

    In November last year Ms Sturgeon announced she was exploring ways whereby women from NI could come to Scotland for an abortion on the NHS and not have to pay. The DUP were angry about this apparently.

    Between the rape clause and making women pay for an NHS abortion in England if they come from NI it looks as if the Tories and DUP have a lot in common.

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