Run silent, run deep
We’re exhausted this morning, readers, and it’s not from a lack of sleep. It’s because we’ve been trying to definitively establish what Scottish Labour’s position with regard to the UK’s Trident nuclear weapons system is, on the day the entire UK-wide Labour party (with so far one known honourable exception in the form of Katy Clark MP) looks set to boycott a Westminster debate on it, and it’s a time-consuming and tiring job.
In fairness, we can’t really say that we blame the Scottish branch office, especially, for ducking out, because we suspect they haven’t got any more of a clue what their position is than we do, and if you’ve got to stand up in your country’s Parliamentary chamber – which of course for them is the House Of Commons – and make a speech about it, that’s a significant handicap.
It shouldn’t actually be that tricky, of course. Recent leadership candidate and now shadow cabinet minister Neil Findlay was very explicit on the point back in December, although he couldn’t actually point to any document supporting his claim:
That seems pretty unambiguous to us. On the other hand, Labour’s shadow defence secretary Vernon Coaker said equally unambigously last year that:
“Labour is committed to ensuring Britain retains a minimum credible nuclear deterrent.”
Labour’s 2010 election manifesto also said:
Of course, neither of those two phrases necessarily mean a renewal of Trident. But while the current Scottish branch manager Jim Murphy has been extremely evasive on the issue since taking up his new position, telling interviewers that he doesn’t want to comment on matters that are reserved to Westminster, he was fairly clear in 2011, saying (while shadow defence secretary) that:
Two years later he was specific on what a “minimum credible nuclear deterrent” was:
Deputy leader Kezia Dugdale, meanwhile, avoids the question entirely:
So, just to recap: it’s (allegedly) long-standing Scottish Labour policy to oppose the renewal of Trident, except that the last leader refused to make any comment on the matter at all (for good reason, as it turned out), and it’s a reserved matter so Scottish Labour’s opinion is irrelevant, except that the Scottish Labour leader has a clear view on it, and he controls all of Labour’s Scottish MPs as well as MSPs, except the ones who are openly opposed to the leader’s policy and go around saying:
All in all, then, we sympathise with Labour’s decision to add Trident to the long list of subjects about which it’s afraid to share its views with the people of Scotland and the UK. Actually letting voters know what your policies are is a fraught and risky business, especially when you haven’t actually worked them out yourself yet.
Labour’s 1983 general election manifesto was infamously dubbed “the longest suicide note in history”. The 2015 version looks like it could safely be written on one side of a postcard. The party’s approach to sharing its views with the electorate appears to be “Don’t ask, don’t tell”.
Could Katy be considering a jump onto the SNP bandwagon?
A complete shambles.
It’s a SNP, Plaid Cymru and green, sponsored debate; therefore bad. Usual Labour and Scottish (sic or should that be sick?) Labour reaction.
Could Katy be considering a jump onto the SNP bandwagon?
I doubt it.
It may be part of her strategy to keep her seat next May.
But she also voted against the Austerity Bill, so in Ms Clark’s case perhaps we should just give her the benefit of the doubt and credit where credit is due.
I suspect given her comments about Deputy Dugdale, she is already on McTernan/Murphy shit list and will be ‘taken care of’ after a suitable delay post the GE.
It’s all a bit nuts really. With nuclear weapons there are only two options if you possess them:
1. You are prepared to use them – in which case we will all be annihilated.
2. You are never prepared to use them – in which case why have them?
So we need to ask Labour a different question – not “are you in favour of renewing Trident?” but, rather, “are you prepared to “press the button” and sanction the use of a weapon of mass destruction?”
Simples really.
Their opposition to removal of Trident. Seems to be along the lines of. We can’t get rid of other countries nuclear weapons so we will do nothing. We can’t guarantee removing it from Scotland would prevent it being moved to England. We are happy for it to remain next to Scotland’s biggest population rather than anywhere else in the UK as that would be unfair on them. The world is unstable so we need it.
The true answer is they are pro nuclear, take their orders from London and don’t give a damn about Scottish opinion and opposition.
Haud oan a meenit – let’s get this clear:
Jim Murphy, the Scottish branch manager will not comment on Trident, because it is a reserved matter.
But, Jim Murphy is a Westminster MP, so, he has a vote on all matters concerning Trident – what is stopping him from commenting then?
Scotland is not yet independent – it is part of the UK, so, why cannot he comment?
He is not a member of the Scottish Parliament, so, he is not bound by the constraints of “it’s a reserved matter” from commenting.
He can comment at length on the Offensive Behaviour at Football Mastches Bill – although this is a Holyrood bill, and, since he isn’t an MSP, what has it got to do with him?
Methinks, the Murphia are still making-up their policies as they go along and haven’t got round to this one.
Either that or, and for me this is the likeliest answer – they are feart tae mention Trident.
“The 2015 version looks like it could safely be written on one side of a postcard.”
Aye, the picture side. Just to help make their position even less clear.
The Labour Party in Scotland GE2015 manifesto will have to be the same the UK version because this is about Westminster. Jackanory Jim cannot hide, he is caught in the Middle England votes more important than Scotland dilemma. Not even the MSM can get him out of this one. Any Scottish TV debates will lose Labour votes. Popcorn at the ready- Lights,camera,ACTION!
You may well abhor Tory minded philosophy but at least you know what you are going to get; sort of.
Labour meanwhile, would rather employ the tactic of being simultaneously committed to everything yet nothing; a strategy much more difficult to execute these days because much of the Scottish electorate has decided that being taken for a mug doesn’t actually yield much if any benefit anymore.
Just cross the floor, Katy.
Well, if enough of them contradict each other on policy and the rest just don’t answer the question the majority of them won’t be liars, will they? They’re simply trying to fool all of the people, all of the time…
Don’t be naïve Stuart. Ask the BBC.
The Scottish Labour Accounting Unit show no signs of clear policies or transparency. I don’t think Jim Murphy has the nature to be a reforming Controller.
I wonder if Labour’s 2015 general election manifesto will actually be written on 2-ply or 3-ply? Perhaps recycled paper to attract the greener voter? I guess it makes no difference as it will be fit for flushing to the same destination.
No wonder we denigrate the Labour party when an issue as important as Trident, its excessive and unaffordable costs during the current economic climate, is treated with such disdain. This is what’s wrong with WM politics and its members; they forget what their job actually is. And contrary to popular belief, it’s not all about the party.
What better time for politicians of all colours to reflect and elaborate to the electorate as best they can, the justification for this proposed horrendous, impractical and wholly unnecessary defence system…and at this moment in (economic) time.
Have they forgotten that we’re watching?
But hey (hitting head off desk repeatedly)…this is WM politics for you!!
@indigo A most valid piece of speculation. She’s probably carrying too much Labour baggage,though. That said, she’ll know as well as anyone that she’s finished as an influence in Labour’s inner circles. It would be no bad thing if she did “jump”. C’mon Katy!
I think the BBC are following Labours position in abstaining from the Debate.
The only mention I saw on the BBC Web Site was on the main Politics page down the bottom at Democracy Live – where they were showing a near empty house debate Trident. (I know.. democracy – where a party can abandon any sense of displaying that democracy by not representing their constituents in a parliamentary debate – you think they’re still claiming expenses for the day though?). They’re now on Foreign Office Questions..
Absolutely NO mention of the Trident Debate on BBC Scotland News Page at all – not even the wee Scotland Live bit.
It’s confirming to me that the BBC is as clueless about NEWS as the Labour Party are as to their opinion on Trident – at least Katy’s planted her OPPOSITION TO TRIDENT flag firmly on Jim Murphy’s poop deck..
Although Katy did campaign against independence she did so by herself. I don’t recall ever seeing her at the Better Together street stall which was usually just up from ours. She did also speak to us which the people on the Better Together stand were not inclined to do.
She is very much in the Dennis Skinner “thorn in the side of the leadership” Old Labour school. I’m not surprised she is there and she might very likely vote against renewal.
For most of them the Weir principle will over-ride any vestigial actual principles remaining.
i do seem to remember a leaflet distributed house to house in Katy Clarks constituency during the referendum in which she is solidly behind Trident and the arms industry. I wrote to her at the time expressing my disappointment in her views. I must dig out the reply. Does anyone have the leaflet? I thought it was also on this site.
Rev. ask Jackie Baillie. She believes in transparency according to her interview in Sunday Politics!
To get rid of Trident/HS2 and the deficit vote SNP/Alliance
The Empire is gone, and the nukes are the only thing this
Insignificant little spec of an Island , has to threaten the world at large, it’s a big stick, and it can never be used in Ernst. I wish they would just accept the fact that we are a small Island and get over there Empire. Then again you reap what you sew, and if you’r Empire has murdered stolen beating
Enslaved every one in it’s path , well maybe that’s the real reason why there is an Un willingness to rid themselves
Of there dead man’s button! !!!!!!
I have seen a copy of the briefing paper on Trident that Ed Milband has sent to MPs and MSPs:
“I will release a statement in January 2016 outlining the decision I have made on whether or not to support the renewal of trident. For the next 12 months, therefore, until I make up my mind on the issue, MPs and MSPs are forbidden for commenting on any matters relating to trident. You are free to use any excuse, for example if you are an MSP you may say that you cannot comment as it is a reserved matter. Obviously it would come across as a bit silly if you are an MP and use this excuse. Please note, you are strictly forbidden for expressing support for trident as this would alienate voters in Scotland. You are also strictly forbidden for expressing opposition to trident as this will alienate the voters in the southern marginals.”
Some interesting comments from Osborne and Macpherson on the Smith proposals
“Macpherson says Scotland could serve as a “laboratory” for tax policy after devolution.”
Labour know Trident, DevoMax, austerity are going to be the keystones of the SNP’s pitch for the GE, and they are having real difficulties knowing what to do about that.
“Jim Murphy has been extremely evasive on the issue since taking up his new position, telling interviewers that he doesn’t want to comment on matters that are reserved to Westminster”
That seems to be a standard trick of Labour’s. When it doesn’t suit them, they use the ‘reserved matters’ excuse to duck an issue. Then, when there are points to be scored against the Scottish Government they are only too happy to muddle reserved and unreserved!
Mind you, there is another aspect. Some of them (Curran, Dugdale, Baillie) appear to have real difficulties upstanding what is and isn’t reserved.
If a nuke, or several were launched at this septic isle, the people would be wiped out so whats the point in having them? The bankers would have no1 to pilfer from.
Another thing, who do we have to defend against? “Terrorists” without a country for a nuke to oblitirate?
This is about lining some1 elses pockets and killing the west of scotland. Nothing to do with defense.
Before you say Russia (putin) will nuke us, he’s maybe a madman in the eyes of the MSM but he’s not stupid, we are so close the fallout would damage Russia.
It might be a case of “My winky is bigger than yours!” Children they need to get a grip and stop this keich!!!
Galamcennalath,
Some of them have difficulty knowing right from wrong.
Duncy Hothersall has been chased on Twitter today by folks trying to find out what Labours stance is. He said if they haven’t announced it prior then Labours voters should assume they are for renewal of Trident.
BTW-Why do the people involved in quotes via Stu’s links keep calling it ‘independent’ nuclear deterrent. My understanding is that we have no control over Trident at all apart from hosting it. I also understand that it is US’ finger on the firing mechanism.
As for using them the simple answer is we can’t without ‘Uncle Sam’s’ permission because he holds the launch codes. We just save billions of dollars from the US Defence Budget and the price we pay is Food Banks and Bedroom Tax etc.
Auld Rock
Mark Lazarowicz, MP for Edinburgh North and Leith, informed me this morning that he would vote against the renewal of Trident tonight.
Next item on agenda.
@ Socrates MacSporran 11:56am.
Guy at my work pointed that out too.
I’m sure the Journalists in our esteemed Media will be directing such questions in Jim’s direction anytime soon.
I know, I know, it’s a long shot and a hilarious suggestion. I think the term Journalist needs re-defined in the OED.
This whole talk about Jim not commenting on ‘reserved’ matters is bollocks. He’s Labour’s Branch Office in Scotland (with no real mandate anyway – other than from internal Party Bottom Licking), and as such has responsibility for both MSP’s and MP’s (or so we’re led to believe). Of course he can comment on what his MP’s are up to on any issue.
He never tires of telling us he his not dictated to by the London Mother Ship. But here we go. A tricky issue he doesn’t want to tackle/comment on, and he brings out the “It’s a reserved Matter” mantra. Oh, so not so Independent Scottish Labour now when it suits.
Dick!
“Jim Murphy has been extremely evasive on the issue since taking up his new position, telling interviewers that he doesn’t want to comment on matters that are reserved to Westminster”
Gosh, does this mean that “reserved” now means “reserved to English politicians,” not “reserved to Westminster Parliament.” What other reason can there be for Murphy, an MP at Westminster, being unable to comment?
If this is the BBC’s attempt to keep us in the dark about affairs that concern the people of Scotland then it’s a sham.
If we’d voted YES they’d be talking about a new home for these WMD’s not holding us back. Thanks a bunch NO voters!
Also George Osborne currently giving evidence to the Treasury Committee on smith proposes and reassuring that Scotland won’t benefit
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=17038
Murphy is a serving MP elected by his constituents to represent them at Westminster, most especially on major issues where there is huge interest. Trident renewal is a reserved matter, so as elected leader of Scotland’s largest group at Westminster he has an even greater responsibility to participate in this debate and, indeed, organise his MPs to vote. Anything less is a complete dereliction of duty as Scottish Labour leader and as a constituency MP.
No doubt BBC journalists will pursue this question with Mr Murphy at the earliest opportunity.
Mealer says:
“Some of them have difficulty knowing right from wrong.”
…. you implying some others DO know right from wrong? 🙂
Curious…is there going to be a vote today on the Trident issue?
It’s easy. They are liar, Tories and opportunists. The Tridemnt is far from London, so it’s not an issue with them.
Oh,and Dierdre Barlow is deid. Bruce Forsyth is no’ lookin’ too well neither.
@indigo 11:47 am
“Could Katy be considering a jump onto the SNP bandwagon?”
I don’t see that happening at any time, I consider her a charltan and a bit of hypocrite( if you can be both, It’s very easy to vote it down If you’re the only one and as it stands with control in Westminster, there is no likelihood of it getting binned,rumours abound of KC only voting in under 3% of what she could have, her attendance is none too clever,
She done SFA for this area, Well that’s as far as I’m concerned,
I really get pissed at her reported to be the Left Wing hope
Left Wing ? She couldn’t find a left wing on a chicken
I think Prof Curtice may have rumbled Jim Murphys “No comment on Trident” stance..
“As far as Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy is concerned that same Guardian poll identified the views of those people who voted Labour back in 2010, but voted “Yes” in the referendum. It showed that an overwhelming 72% of them were opposed to the renewal of Trident.
So, Labour’s problem – north of the border at least – is that this issue of Trident seems to be mixed up with the issue of independence, partly because at some people just don’t like nuclear weapons being in the River Clyde.
Therefore Labour has to think if it wants to get back these ex-Labour voters who voted “Yes” and what they say about Trident could actually matter.”
Trident? What Trident?
Link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30897643
“the entire UK-wide Labour party (with so far one known honourable exception in the form of Katy Clark MP) looks set to boycott a Westminster debate on it,”
And yet, they all faithfully trundled in, like a herd of sheep, to vote for the harshest austerity measures in a generation. They will be expecting a big pay rise for that one.
Red Tories: utterly disgraceful.
Trident is not an independent deterrent. We simply lease the missiles from America. We can only afford to have one on patrol, two are kept at port for “training” and the other makes regular trips to the US, where it transfers its stock of missiles for fresh ones out of the US stockpile.
The UK government took part in a programme to extend the operational lifespan of the system to 2030, as its expected that the new submarines will not be ready until then. This capability upgrade cost £250 million.
Strategically, the system is not UK independent. It relies on US targeting packages and fire and control systems. Politically it is not independent as to acquire access to these systems and the satellites used to guide the missiles to their targets, would require prior approval from the US president.
Also the number of missiles that can be carried undermines the concept of deterrence.
The real reason for this wasteful exercise, is the appearance of relevance. This is to allow the UK to appear important, and allows it a seat at the top table. Militarily its the same. the appearance of being able to project power.
The appearance of a major Russian naval battlegroup off the coast of Scotland, blew that illusion out of the water. The US has from that day, been quietly urging the UK to drop trident and use the money to repair its conventional forces. The UK is increasingly not seen as a credible partner anymore. Cameron’s response was predictable and of course missed the point. He ordered 600 APCs modelled on the US Stryker. This programme will cost as much as the aircraft carriers that have no aircraft to carry.
Historically the only nations who behave like this, wasting money of military geegaws that they cannot afford, have usually been 3rd world powers.
The UK is a faded old world power that should really be acting its age. But the allure of that “relevance of being” is too hard to give up.
O/T
Interesting news:
The SNP have chosen the leader of the Highland Council as their candidate to stand against Lib Dem Danny Alexander in the general election..
George Osborne and Nicholas MacPherson have now finished giving evidence on the Smith Commission Report ( White paper to be pubished this week – our Burns Day surprise!) to the Treasury Committee but you can watch it from the start on Parliament TV.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=17038&wfs=true
Katy Clark is the worst kind of hypocrite, she knows fine well how damaging policies like austerity and trident are to Scotland yet she still toes the Labour party pro-union vote no line.
Quite simply by backing labour in the indyref, Katy Clark put the future of the Labour party before the future of Scotland. She knows there is no chance to avoid trident renewal or the austerity agenda if we remain in the union, voting against it now is too little too late. If she wanted rid of both she should have backed a yes vote.
They’d renew it were they in office.
They’re keeping schtum though in the time honoured tradition of fence sitting and keeping soundbites at the ready. Its a lot easier to castigate others when no one knows where you stand on anything.
They lost their bottle to take a stand against WMDs a long time ago.
Notice on the last thread a damning newspaper report on the democratic process of the referendum vote being corrupt. The country of the newspaper? UGANDA! Says it all.
Just read the Lamont blurb again on Trident, nipped my head the first time, has nipped it again. Seems like an age ago now that JoLa was calling for debates left right and centre.
Even the nuclear WE177A and B57 depth bomb used in Nimrods also had to be signed off by a US representative before being loaded to an aircraft. e.g. There were always US military stationed at RAF Machrihanish (when it was operational)
“The US Navy stores 126 nuclear depth bombs under US control at
RAF St Mawgan in Cornwall and RAF Macrihanish, Kintyre. These
are assigned to US Navy P-3 Orion ASW aircraft, and for release
under NATO operations to RAF Nimrod and Dutch P-3 ASW aircraft.” cited from: http://www.skeptictank.org/treasure/GP5/UKNUC5.TXT
Daily Politics show has just had Alan Johnson and Plaid mp discussing whether trident cold be a bargaining point if labour didn’t get a majority at GE. Johnson stated Labour were pro Trident, end of.
Worth a look, repeated at midnight on bbc Parliament.
“Andrew Tyrie concludes by thanking Osborne for coming. He says he has shed some light on the Smith Commission report, some of which could mean almost anything, he said.”
What can one say?
I agree that they’d renew them if they had the power to. The fact that they are passing up every opportunity to agree with the majority of the Scottish voting demographic on the issue speaks volumes.
“Run silent, run deep”, except when one was stuck om the rocks at the bottom of a Skye croft. 🙂
Scotland’s enemy, SLab. This episode shows their disgusting disdain for the electorate that put them in their seat.
One of the biggest issues for this country, and they turn tail.
I really hope anyone harbouring a notion of ever voting Labour is truly cured of that affliction, with this arrogant display.
I’m seething at their audacity.
ClanDonald says:
“does this mean that “reserved” now means “reserved to English politicians,” not “reserved to Westminster Parliament.” ”
After the GE that is exactly the position we might find ourselves in.
Scenario. SNP do well. Con & Lab form a loose coalition to keep austerity and replace Trident. Effectively freeze the SNP out by stopping them exercising influence. Scotland then finds itself ruled by a government of (English) national unity.
“Left Wing ? She couldn’t find a left wing on a chicken”
haha 🙂
Fudge.
A lot has been said by The Scottish Branch office of labour about the innaction of the SNP to secure jobs in the oil sector. My question is, what powers other than schemes for retraining workers for other jobs, etc have the SNP actually got to make any difference to the current situation regarding oil prices as it is a world wide phenomenon and why are Slab misleading the public when they know theere is the square root of fuck all that the SNP can do about this much as they would like to. The SNP have no power regarding this matter and it is westminster that should be addressing the problem.
Alan Johnston, Labour MP asserts that Labour had the Trident discussion at conference in 2007, Pre Financial Crash, and that is the position they hold today. Perhaps it is time they revisited the question and considered it again in the context of the state of the nation today.
“Run silent, run deep” – Love it!
Tonight in the Commons, it’ll be “The Hunt for Red ScotsTories”!
Surely as Westminster MPs, they should be in Parliament anyway,it’s their job,they should be voting as there constituents want them too.
Fwaaargh…you cynics were right – entire Beattie lunchtime show has been and gone and went, and was there so much as a solitary mention of Trident?
Three guesses…
Surely as Westminster MPs, they should be in Parliament anyway,it’s their job,they should be voting as there constituents want them to vote.
As well as the fact that they mostly support it, I think Labour have now hit the point where they are determined to get across the point that they are just going to ignore what people who vote against them in Scotland want totally.
Effort to try and show SNP will have no influence in an attempt to make people vote Labour instead. I, for one, will not be swayed no matter what Labour now say and I hope that if the SNP do well in May but are ignored then the Scottish electorate is furious and Labour reaps what they sow come Holyrood elections in May 2016 (with iref 2 in SNP manifesto and a hard push on ‘look how little say you get and how little Labour try on your behalf, what’s the point of the union for you?’)
Rev The party’s approach to sharing its views with the electorate appears to be “Don’t ask, don’t tell”.
Thats the problem we do ask, ah hope that wee wummin in Ayr is sitting in her chair wie a nice cosy fire on,cause sure as hell ill freeze over she,s no getting a answer fae DimJim.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGAQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.observationsblog.com%2Fobservations%2Fcategory%2Fpolitical%2520double%2520speak&ei=7Vy-VIUDhdjLA7iAgbAJ&usg=AFQjCNGlPJyYQM-aXORGT__qT1WMUlOaRg&sig2=vAvAVLVg8xgctAtrThz5ng&bvm=bv.83829542,d.bGQ
Stop asking me questions I have not thoroughly prepared myself for … it’s not as if I’m at university you know.! 😛
I’ve got my shovel now can someone please point me in the general direction of the beach, I have a rather large hole to dig so I can put my head in it! 😀
On the one hand, we can’t afford to feed all our children,
while on the other, we have billions to spend on nuclear toys.
But when you have an empire to run, and the hungry children are all poor with few prospects in life, it’s easy to justify.
But a time is coming, if we vote Yes.
Or, it will stay like this, if you vote No.
2 Million residents in Scotland voted in favour of keeping the children hungry. Many of them will have children and grandchildren of their own – but their kids are different, they’re worth something. Poor kids are worthless trash. let them starve – they’ll die quicker.
Put that in your manifesto.
Katy Clark?
Honourable exception?
Stu has already told us Katy’s real reason for opposing Trident.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/katyclarktrident.jpg
Charlatan and hypocrite are both words that apply to her.
However Murphy & McTernan won’t need to do anything about her after the GE – she will be kicked out on May 7th.
Anyone expect that..
https://twitter.com/IanDavidsonMP/status/557518153761439745
Katy Clark MPs is making all the right noises just now but I’d give her the benefit of the doubt as I cant see her recent moral stance to issues like trident being anything other than a giant albatross to her career path in the Labour Party.
It’s one thing for him to say that on Twitter Nana but it is something totally different for him to actually do it. Think I’ll wait to read the head count in Hansard before actually accepting that tweet as fact. 😉
@Fairliered,,,,,,,Hopefully 7th May will see her in the bin
@pmcrek 2:20 pm I wouldn’t give her any benefit whatsoever,As far as I’m concerned just another Labour parasite
The Labour party has humped this area rotten since my grandfather’s day
“Jim Murphy has been extremely evasive on the issue since taking up his new position, telling interviewers that he doesn’t want to comment on matters that are reserved to Westminster”…
except North Sea Oil policy?
@Lesley-Anne
Agree with you Lesley Anne. I too have my doubts, words come easy to certain politicians.
Wait a minute though, didn’t Jim Murphy say HE was in charge of ALL things Labour in Scotland, then surely that includes Trident, so why doesn’t he tell us what he wants their policy to be and say publicly that HIS labour mp’s will vote or not according his instructions?
The Labour Party leadership take the view that clarifying their position on a replacement for Trident will only lose the party votes. It’s what Blair termed “creative ambiguity”; i.e., appearing to be both supporting and opposing something at the same time, thereby maximising their vote or rather minimising potential loss of votes on any “difficult” issue. Strangely enough (or not), they follow the same principle with regard to proposed further austerity/cuts. They vote with the Tories and the Lib Dems, but claim their “austerity” will be somehow painless and isn’t really austerity at all.
Aye you are right Nana. Certain individuals seem to think that by SAYING something then all us *ahem* mushrooms will believe it as FACT leaving them clear to do the exact opposite in reality.
Agree re Katy Clarke being a hypocrite. Think she is probably positioning herself to step in if eventually Lab decide to become a separate Scottish party.
Re the BBC ignoring the Trident debate, well it’s only the SNP so it doesn’t matter.
Also apparently the term insurgent was used again on the BBC when referring to indy supporters
“Labour is a moral crusade or it’s nothing”, Harold Wilson.
My thanks for that timely reminder in a letter in todays National from the irrepressable Brian Quaill.
@ Lesley Anne. 1.54 as the village idiot I dont want you to get into trouble digging hole on her Maj,s property, you need permission from crown estates, up to the high tide mark is hers.lol
A little perspective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield
The bombs exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki had nuclear yields of about 20 kilotons. A quarter of a million people died in the first 2 to 4 months from burns and acute radiation sickness. Many, many more died of lingering illnesses in the months and years afterwards.
Each Trident warhead is somewhere between 100 and 475 kilotons. Up to 200 of these warheads are stored near Glasgow. An arsenal with potentially up to 5000 times the power of the Hiroshima bomb.
Fingers crossed there’s no accident, eh?
Its a well known fact the launch code for all American nukes is 00000001. They done this to save time when launching.
Where Scotland is concerned Labour don’t think they need to bother with a manifesto.
They think all they have to do is tell the Scots to vote Labour in order to protect their benefits and keep the Tories out.
Oops!
I forgot about that Ronnie. Thanks for reminding me … now folks know why I’m the village idiot! 😀
Haven’t read all the comments above so it may have already been mentioned, but it’s a terrific irony that Labour MSP Katy Clark, in theoretically supporting SNP policy and being prepared to vote in principle in defiance of her party’s policy on nuclear weapons, wouldn’t be an acceptable candidate for SNP selection.
Katy Clark is my MP. I wrote to her asking for membership figures. She wrote back obtusely advising me to write to the Labour party for that info. I wrote back saying, sorry I thought you WERE the Labour party! So she ducks and dives with the best of Labour’s liars. Since 2011, there have been 13 debates in the Commons, including votes taken on the subject of ‘more powers or more responsibilities to Scotland’, over a wide range of issues. Katy did not bother to turn up and vote for even one of these 13 votes! So although she knows the majority of her constituents want more powers, she treats our aspirations for constitutional change with utter contempt. The only other Scots MPs with Ms Clark’s dubious honour of not turning up for even one of the said 13 debates are Gordon Brown & Alistair Darling! Great noe-right wing company for a so-called left wing rebel!! I have also spoken to YES campaigners who were holding stalls week in week out in the Three Towns (Saltcoats, Ardrossan & Stevenston – Ms Clark’s North Ayrshire & Arran home turf) who said she would show up for the ‘Better Together’ stall, maybe once every 4 or 5 weeks, if they were lucky, but most importantly, the YES workers all heard her telling older people at her ‘BT’ stall, words to the effect that ‘If you vote YES on the 18th, your pensions will stop on the 19th!’ So when push comes to shove, Ms Clark has only a ‘weather eye’ on her constituents’ interests’ whilst playing to the gallery of public opinion with her empty gestures votes (against Trident / austerity) which she always knew her side (the red/blue tories) were never going to lose anyway. So she’s up there with Murphy & the rest in the panoply of ‘Project Fear’ heros and will fight as dirty as the rest of them! She likes to portray herself as a govt ‘rebel’ but scratch the surface of that carefully contrived reputation & she has, in fact, only rebelled less than 2% of the time, and all, as I said, empty gesture ‘rebel’ votes, so totally meaningless. I think therefore she is a very devious and ruthless ‘operator’ who has proven she will say anything and act out any role to keep her own job going & to blazes with her constituents. She also reels out that her grandfather was an Ayrshire miner blah, blah but I wonder what that grandfather would have thought of the Labour party today? Might he not, like Keir Hardie, be spinning in his proverbial? The thought of katy Clark, Project Fear manipulator extraordinaire ‘jumping over to the SNP’ made me laugh out loud. But seriously for anyone to say that on Wings only proves Ms Clark’s duplicitous nature. Know thine enemy and never underestimate them!
Re Katy Clark joining SNP-from what I can see SNP aren’t that desperate to take on a Labour MP.
Differing from her party on one or two issues does not make her a social democrat by any stretch of the imagination.
Liz also suggested she might be setting out her stall to move in if SLAB became an independent party from UK Labour.
Possible but I can’t really see that happening as the real Labourites (the few who are left probably won’t want to be tainted by taking in any of the existing crowd.
testing
Re Katy Clark:
Maybe, since there’s an election in the offing, she feels she needs to start speaking on behalf of her constituents? I’m told she’s Labour’s representative in North Ayrshire – as opposed to being North Ayrshire’s representative in Westminster.
It only needs an 11% swing to unseat her. The SNP have shown in the past that they can turn over bigger percentages than that.
Big Jock, 11.56am says
‘The true answer is they are pro nuclear, take their orders from London and don’t give a damn about Scottish opinion and opposition.’
In fact, they don’t give a damn about the people of Scotland full stop. For a supposedly leftish party, well left of tory, at one time, to be in favour of spending billions on nukes rather than on health, education and social security and all of the other essential services and improvements required to develop a civilised, forward looking country, is just beyond any intelligent thinking.
Must get on with my engraving of nuke sub, taking months, but, what of the debate today? Could it make that obselete? Hope so!
@Jimmur Phymp at 12:24 pm
“I have seen a copy of the briefing paper on Trident that Ed Milband has sent to MPs and MSPs:
“I will release a statement in January 2016 outlining the decision I have made on whether or not to support the renewal of trident. For the next 12 months, therefore, until I make up my mind on the issue, MPs and MSPs are forbidden for commenting on any matters relating to trident. You are free to use any excuse, for example if you are an MSP you may say that you cannot comment as it is a reserved matter. Obviously it would come across as a bit silly if you are an MP and use this excuse. Please note, you are strictly forbidden for expressing support for trident as this would alienate voters in Scotland. You are also strictly forbidden for expressing opposition to trident as this will alienate the voters in the southern marginals.”
Now THAT is illuminating. Can you imagine that any of them are happy going along with this kind of subterfuge? Oh they are? LOL … And such transparent motives to – “don’t tell Scotland that we want to renew otherwise we’ll lose whatever support we’ve still got left up there, even though that’s minimal. Can’t have them having good reasons for joining the SNP or the Greens.”
Honestly, it’s Westminster politics as usual, with nary a word of truth or honour. Damn them all.
@Karmanaut says:20 January, 2015 at 3:30 pm:
“A little perspective.”
Aye! Karmanaut, and there is a known dangerous design fault in the system that is always skated over in reports.
Here is just such a report from a Sunday Herald article that contains a skated over statement.
This is the Herald report: –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield
This is the bit from that report that is really frightening : –
“The figures do not include incidents involving nuclear weapons, for which no numbers are given. The report does say, however, that there have been “false alarms and system failures” with an “environmental hazard detection system”, for the warheads.(emphasis is mine).
“System failures”, indicates that the established way of handling has failed but couple that with, “false alarms”, and we have a situation where there has been a failure that due to a false alarm could go undetected until … … … Get the picture?
Just watching a wee bit of the Trident debate.
Damn, we really do have these unionists on the run don’t we?
I mean the Trident debate was co signed by the S.N.P., Plaid Cymru and the Greens. Despite this all I’ve heard from the two speakers so far, Alan Reid and the Labour M.P, is S.N.P. bad S.N.P. bad S.N.P. bad!
Good speech from Jeremy Corbyn there and now Katy Clark, who has just confirmed the sighting, that she has indeed nailed her colours to being ANTI Trident renewal!
Aha. So Katy Clark has just now stood up in the HoC and declared her complete opposition to renewal of Trident. Hmmmm.
Just as a wee aside here is a wee interaction that happened earlier today between Angus Robertson and Michael Fallon. 😉
Angus Robertson:
The Secretary of State was unable to tell us earlier what the through-life costs of Trident replacement would be, so let me ask him a second question: when are the UK armed forces going to have a maritime patrol aircraft in service? When will that be?
Michael Fallon:
On his first question—I notice that the hon. Gentleman has not addressed any of the inconsistencies I pointed out—I have already made it clear that we cannot be final about the full-length costs of the renewal until we come to take that maingate decision next year. That will be explained to Parliament. So far as maritime patrol aircraft are concerned, we inherited a situation in which some 21 Nimrod aircraft were supposed to be available by 2003, yet when we came to office seven years later, none was available. As part of the painful decisions we had to take to regularise the defence budget and sort out the £38 billion black hole, it was necessary to cancel a programme that had not in any case delivered. The hon. Gentleman asked me when we were going to examine this matter again, and the answer is very clear: we will, of course, look at that particular capability, along with other capabilities, as part of the strategic defence review, which will be initiated immediately after the general election.
I only post this wee script to give everyone some REAL hope that the recent incident of the *ahem* unknown submarine in Scottish waters that no one knew anything about, nor could they find, will shortly be resolved. Well I say shortly resolved in fact what I really mean is that the lack of maritime patrol aircraft will, apparently, be included in the next Defence Review … due to take place AFTER May’s general election. So that’s all right then. Maritime aircraft, or rather LACK there of, will be reviewed AFTER May so we should expected to see the first NEW maritime aircraft flying in R.A.F. colours say in around 25 years time then. Well that’s O.K. then glad we got that sorted out! 😛
Sorry Stu, but I’ve just read another brilliant wee interaction between Brian Donohoe and Angus McNeil. 😀
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab):
I cannot believe what the hon. Gentleman has just said. At a time when submarines from Russia are going up the Clyde and tankers from the same place are at the top of Scotland, he is trying to tell us that we should not have a deterrent. That is absolutely unreal. The idea that we should find ourselves defenceless in those circumstances is a crazy notion.
Mr MacNeil:
This is not the first time that the hon. Gentleman has struggled to comprehend or believe things, but it is very alarming that he has told us that Russian submarines are going up the Clyde. My goodness! I thought that we had a deterrent. It is clear that his nuclear policies are failing, because by the sound of things, those submarines will be docking in Greenock or Port Glasgow any minute now.
Now I know we all on here think that there a lot of Labour M.P.’s walking around with their heads either stuck, in the clouds, in cloud cuckoo land or stuck in the sand but really Donohoe must be the absolute laughing stock of today’s debate! 😛
The vote on the Trident debate has just been finished and the vote was, as suspected.
Ayes 35
Noes 364
We’ll just have to wait and see how Hansard records the votes. For now I suspect that we will see all S.N.P., Plaid Cymbru and Green M.P.’s plus Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott, Katy Clark and Dame Joan Ruddock among the AYE voters
“Labour’s 1983 general election manifesto was infamously dubbed “the longest suicide note in history”.”
At least the man in charge was the last Labour leader who was honest and had socialist principles.
To paraphrase an old TV confectionary advert “A finger of fudge is just enough until it’s time to vote”
“If i’d don’t say I can’t lie.” 🙂
“If I don’t say I can’t lie.” 🙂 (oops)