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Return Of The Abstainers

Posted on October 23, 2013 by

The coalition government’s horrific new immigration bill passed its first hurdle in the House Of Commons last night by 303 votes to 18.

The administration that brought us vans touring cities telling foreigners to leave or be arrested, gangs of armed officers sweeping tube stations for any dark-skinned undesirables, British citizens being harassed by text message and incomers to Scotland met with UK Border Agency posters urging them to go home intends to make life even more wretched and intolerable for vulnerable refugees and people who want to come here and contribute to our economy and culture.

ukborder

And Labour? Labour bravely abstained from the vote.

(Indeed, most news reports claim that the party actively supports the bill, but plans to table unspecified “amendments” at some point in the future. What they’ll do when those amendments are rejected remains to be seen.)

We’ll add last night’s craven display of snivelling cowardice to the list below, updated from a piece we originally ran back in March detailing how turning a blind eye is Labour’s new form of standing up to the Tories:

On a Tory bill for an early EU referendum

On retrospectively depriving workfare victims of compensation

On the right of civil servants to strike

On rejecting the siting of nuclear weapons in Scotland
(see also the renewal of Trident, in both 2010 and 2007)

On condemning the Iraq war

On free tuition for students

On minimum pricing of alcohol

On opposing the 50p-rate tax cut

On opposing savage cuts to public-sector pensions

On stopping fuel-duty increases

On maintaining concessionary bus travel for the elderly

On massive pay rises for councillors

On the criminalisation of squatting

On reducing VAT from 20% to 17.5%

On the Scottish budget

But the underlying truth is worse.

It’s not that Labour are just a gutless, useless opposition standing meekly and impotently by while the Tories and their obedient Lib Dem flunkies rip up every last remaining shred of compassion and decency in Britain they can lay their hands on. The truth of the matter is, as suggested by the press, that Labour agree with them, but don’t have even the courage to vote with their convictions.

At least with UKIP you know where you stand.

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    1. tartanfever says:

      In an attempt to disguise the nature of this horrific bill I see Theresa May has announced that the ‘hate vans’ will not be rolled out across the UK. It’s nothing more than a token gesture to try and placate the public.
      With the main three parties now agreeing on so many policies, what choice do the British public have with their vote ?

    2. MochaChoca says:

      O/T apologies, but quite important, Grangemouth to shut – BBC News

    3. Doug Daniel says:

      “detailing how turning a blind eye is Labour’s new form of standing up to the Tories”
       
      New? Isn’t that basically what The Feeble Fifty did throughout Thatcher’s entire reign?

    4. Morag says:

      I have friends who are still slavishly loyal to Labour, although they know in their hearts that this stuff is going on.  Some days I could just shake them.  (Mrs, who is English, is pro-independence, too.)

    5. Rod Mac says:

      Yet it seems a majority of voters in Dunfermline will vote Labour ..discuss!!!

    6. Dinnatouch says:

      The roll of shame. 
      Labour’s only conviction is to get themselves elected. They don’t give a damn about the principles of the party’s founders, they’re only interested in power. 

    7. wee jamie says:

      “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”..Edmund Burke.

    8. PRJ says:

      A one party state!!

    9. Macart says:

      I think you’ll find the only strenuous opposing Labour does is in the Scottish parliament and that’s basically to anything and everything SNP. Words fail. 

    10. kininvie says:

      At least there was someone who stood up and said what needed to be said: I missed it live, but luckily a transcript survives: Stirring stuff. Well done Pete.
       
      http://petewishart.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/the-uk-immigration-bill/

    11. Restlessnative says:

      Keep it coming Labour.Its exactly reasons like these that people like my friend who this time last year was a rabid no voter is now overtly YES.

    12. Dcanmore says:

      Perfectly correct Stuart. Labour need to be pulled up on this time and time again. Remember that scene in ‘In the Loop’ where Malcolm Tucker berates the hapless minister to toe the party line that war is neither ‘forseeable nor unforseeable’. Labour agree whatever the tories do but they don’t want to be seen to be agreeing with them, it’s called deniability. If something goes wrong with policy or is deeply unpopular with the public then they will say they didn’t agree with it and they didn’t vote for it, technically that is true, but as you sald, it’s the coward’s way out. The only reason Labour voted against intervention in Syria is because Miliband didn’t secure some sort of backroom deal for his party.
       
      We all know what to expect from the nasty party, at least they’re upfront, but Labour have no convictions, are morally bankrupt, spineless while playing a game of lets pretend with the ordinary bloke on the street. They have as much substance as my early morning piss. It’s all about power, getting it and holding onto it, nothing else matters.

    13. Famous15 says:

      Do not worry about Grangemouth. The Better Together NO campaign will give us an object lesson on how the UK will save the day!

    14. Linda's Back says:

      O/T  Ineos to close Grangemouth petrochemical plant.
      Well done Stephen Deans and once again Scottish lions led by Labour donkeys who gave the company the excuse they needed to close the plant.

    15. Desimond says:

      Scottish Budget :

      Labour: Give us 10’000 apprenticeships and we’ll ratify your SNP budget

      Swinney : Good idea!, Lets make 25’000 Apprenticeships!

      Labour : We abstain!

      Todays Labour party are the epitome of Party Politics, they only serve to serve themselves. Anything remotely covering Public interest is actively discouraged.

    16. Doug Daniel says:

      Dcanmore – “We all know what to expect from the nasty party, at least they’re upfront, but Labour have no convictions, are morally bankrupt, spineless while playing a game of lets pretend with the ordinary bloke on the street.”
       
      Aye, the Tories walk up to you and stab you from the front. Labour come over, take you into a comforting embrace, and slowly ease the knife in between the shoulder-blades, smiling throughout.
       
      wee jamie – in this case, the good men (and women) DID vote against the bill – namely the SNP, Plaid and Caroline Lucas of the Greens. Unfortunately, they were outnumbered by evil pricks voting for it, and spineless cretins abstaining.

    17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      At least there was someone who stood up and said what needed to be said: I missed it live, but luckily a transcript survives: Stirring stuff. Well done Pete.”

      Aye, someone emailed it to me earlier. Cracking speech, would have appended it to the piece except for the weird bit about how the Tories would probably have opposed the Normans and Vikings. Um, weren’t those murderous invading armies? Probably fair enough in those particular cases…

    18. Hetty says:

      O/T
      I had to call the DWP to ask where I could send a form for my son’s bursary application, and another one for EMA,  and it took me about 20 mins to get through to the local office, my calls went to London, where they had no idea about the EMA, ( (education maintenance allowance for 16-19’s less well off), as it was scrapped in England (pretty much the day the Tories took over in 2010), the other call centre was in Yorkshire, where the guy was a bit more friendly toward me. That just indicated to me the trouble ahead, with public service headquarters all being in England. I mean to be put through to Edinburgh from Yorkshire, when calling from Edinburgh is unecessary and time consuming, quite deiberate though.
       
      I hope my eyes deceive me on reading here that Grangemouth is closing, honestly I feel sick. It’s the first in a plan to destroy Scotland leading up to the referendum.
      They will not get away with it this time.
       

    19. jake says:

      Rod Mac said:
      “Yet it seems a majority of voters in Dunfermline will vote Labour ..discuss!!!”

      or alternatively

      It seems the majority of the votes counted in Dunfermline will be for Labour…discuss

    20. James Morton says:

      I remember when i were a lad that Scottish Labour used to refer to themselves as the “fighting 50” – then I remember the rejoinder that they were in fact “A shiver looking for a spine to run up”.
      Recently the latter description seems to fit better. 

    21. wee jamie says:

      @ Doug Daniel
       
      Perhaps I was being a bit optimistic in thinking there were Any good ones left in the Labour party , still , the more evil and nasty the con -dem coalition  become  , with the passive support of labour, the more independence will appeal to the average Scot. We have nearly a year left, and as they are on a roll, the nightmare policies will just keep coming, does my heart good to look forward to 11 months of unionist own goals !

    22. Gillie says:

      Breaking News – Grangemouth to close.
       
      Can we add this to Labour’s list?

    23. MochaChoca says:

      This list is of rather major policies, to abstain is like conceeding you are not bothered one way or the other and happy to go with the flow.

      There is a similar trait by many of the public at elections, which of course is disappointing and dimnishes proper democracy, but for the electorate it is their right to do so and in some ways this disinterest is an understandable reaction to the crap politics we see.

      But for a political party to stunt democracy in this way is simply unacceptable. There may be very occasionally an issue where a party would be right on the fence. But even then the party should allow their members a free vote. To abstain is pure cowardice, it just lets them say ‘we didn’t support it’ when a policy goes pearshaped, or ‘we didn’t oppose it’ if it turns out to be beneficial (like some of ther shit in their Dunfermline leaflet).

    24. Desimond says:

      O/T Apologies and all that but anyone else thinking Grangemouth petrochemical closure is the start of the true battle. Lines will be drawn and soon the most uninterested Referendum voter will start to get interested in how and what the main Parties actually do in response to such major issues so close to home.

      Grangemouth and similar events which will arise will call for engagement of interest from everyone, including those who think. I expect Blair MacDougall is already being asked about such items on the BBC.

      Colleague reports an email from brother who works in oil confirming Refineries in trouble and only possible Grangemouth solution( a buy-out is unlikely) is a Scottish government subsidy which in turn will hit Scots in the pocket which in turn will then be used as a negative for Scottish Independence Campaign…the fight really is on!

    25. Robert Kerr says:

      I had a conversation with a Dutch engineer about the wartime occupation.
      I said “Ausweis, Bitte”
      His reply was “There was no Bitte”
      Neve mind. It is all history

    26. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Thanks Rev, that’s a handy list.
       
      If there are any Labour supporters familiar with the word ‘socialism’ and what it used to encapsulate before becoming just a quick means of making Americans burst into tears, perhaps they’d like to take themselves to Dunfermline and TALK to people.
       
      Grow a pair. Show them that list. Go to the pub, drown your sorrows with old mates, whatever, but face up to the truth – the Labour Party is deid. 
       
      Then join LFI, the Greens, SSP, SNP, start your own Real Scottish Labour, whatever it takes – FFS, get real, and help us win this thing.
       
      We won’t get another chance.

    27. Murray McCallum says:

      How can any serious political party abstain on this specific issue! I also thought the international “socialists” within Scottish New Labour did not recognise geographical boundaries.
       
      I wonder what policies Nigel Farage is focusing on next to ensure their introduction in the UK?

    28. Atypical_Scot says:

      At least with UKIP you know where you stand
       
      Hang more like.
       
      All of Europe is shutting it’s doors. Saddening if not sickening to most decent folks. For a totally twisted perspective on immigration, this YouTube short was tweeted by Limmy last week. 
       
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff3IA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    29. Alasdair MacColla says:

      Anyone who has had the misfortune of being in contact with UK immigration knows how Theresa May has been progressively ramping up the pressure to punish the majority for the crimes of a minority. Both my father and my wife have had, or are going through, the broken immigration system at the moment.

      My father is Australian and my mother is Scottish, when they moved back to Scotland from Australia, the UK authorities told my Mum that she had not adequately proved that she was British! This was despite providing her passport details and the fact she was born in Scotland. They were also forced to provide evidence that they were not in a sham marriage, even though they had been married for 20 years! It would have been incredible foresight of my parents to have had a sham marriage to plan for an immigration application almost 2 decades later. 

      Meanwhile my wife, who speaks English as a native language, and has 2 degrees (including a masters degree) from Australia, has had to prove that she speaks English. She needed to provide academic transcripts, an academic reference letter, original copies of degrees from a certified university etc etc. She is a native speaker! It’s absurd. 

      We are told that the immigration system is designed in a way in which the most talented people are attracted to the country but I can tell you the fact my wife speaks three languages, has two degrees and that we are a young well educated couple had ZERO influence on our application. Similarly the fact my father owned and operated a successful business with a multi-million dollar turnover had ZERO influence on his application. There is nothing in the process which takes these things into account. Incidentally, neither are entitled to benefits now that they are in the UK.

      The 50 page form we recently filled out simply for a visa extension (its 5 year process in total) is a patronising exercise. Some of the insightful questions include, How often do you see your spouse?  How do you communicate?  Have you been involved in terrorism? Have you been convicted of War Crimes? Have you been convicted of crimes against humanity or genocide? Yes, seriously. Although I will admit I returned a library book late once.

      For those that don’t know, to sponsor your spouse you must earn a minimum of £18,600 per year, or have £62,000 in savings. In Scotland the average wage is £20,862 while in London it is £27,560, so the part of the UK that is in more desperate need of immigrants is actually the part of the UK where it is harder to sponsor your spouse.

      Then there is the ‘British test’ that all immigrants must do when they have their indefinite leave to remain. Seems a little pointless when the majority of Scots don’t even self identify as British. Better get reading up on your history of red double decker buses, beef-eaters, Big Ben and Horatio Nelson. 

      I know of people that personally feel more drawn towards the Labour party as they are seen as the ‘softer’ party on immigration. There is little actual evidence to support that view as Labour have not committed to over-turning any of unfair Tory immigration policy. These are laws which the High Court have deemed ‘onerous and unjustified’.

      What many people also need to understand is that legal immigrants are often the most opposed to illegal immigrants, because they are the ones that need to live with the toughening up of the rules because of folk who do the wrong thing. Similarly, they also often resent refugees as ‘queue-jumpers’ and don’t understand why they are penalised for going through the legitimate process.

      Also, while it is all well and good for everyone to pat themselves on the back about getting rid of the ‘Go Home’ vans and posters, they need to understand that most immigrants don’t care about that issue. You are getting offended on their behalf. Immigrants need a champion who will get just as upset about the ACTUAL immigration criteria which are splitting up their family and not just some superficial issue which in essence has no bearing on their life.

      Apologies to all for such a long message. I could go on and on as this is only the tip of the iceberg. Most people have no idea how much anxiety this is causing many normal, hard working families in Scotland who just want to contribute and get on with their lives. I hope hearing just some of my personal experiences can help people to see what is happening. We are being lumbered with an English immigration policy based on pressures and circumstances in London and Scotland needs to take a different route.

      Oh, and we are all voting Yes in our household. 

    30. Richard Lucas says:

      If the Unionists really did give a damn about Scotland, Cameron would parachute in and ‘save’ Grangemouth. What are the odds that he will?

    31. The Man in the Jar says:

      The sickening events at Grangemouth are in my opinion manufactured by Labour in cahoots with the unions. I have expected black ops to be used but not on this scale.
       
      Trashing Scotland’s major industrial complex to further their agenda is beyond belief and the sad fact is that they will get away with it. Of course their pals in the MSM/BBC will appropriate the blame onto the Scottish Government. Job Done!
       
      One thing that gives me a glimmer of hope is that the SNP under Alex Salmond will do whatever it takes to protect Scotland’s interest. Just imagine for a moment if any of our alternative “Scottish” parties had been in power. Im sure that Willie Rennie would have sorted them out. 😉 Or perhaps it would never have happened in the first place.
       
      I await with baited breath for a UK government minister to “venture north” and wave a union jack at Ineos (?) and it will all be sorted “Hurra for the union!” I very much doubt it but I hope that they are found out for their black ops and that Scotland will finally understand what these bastards are up to.

    32. Big AL says:

      Sometimes I wonder what on earth it will take to get through to Labour voters about what a disease the Labour Party is to Scotland.

    33. Barney Thomson says:

      Re the horrific immigration bill –
       
      The Al Kindi Ensemble of dervish dancers, who were due to appear at the Aberdeen Sound Festival have been refused entry to the UK by the Home Office as there are “doubts that they would leave the UK after performing”.
       
      They performed in Paris on Monday and will be in Helsinki this Sunday. Obviously the attractions of Aberdeen in October are more tempting than boring old Paris and Helsinki. (Or is it ‘cos they is Syrian?)
       
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-24624117

    34. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Alasdair MacColla
       
      Don’t apologise. Your comment is very insightful. I knew it was bad but not as utterly ridiculous as you say. 
       
      Best wishes to you and yours for a successful future in an independant Scotland!

    35. bunter says:

      State broadcaster reporting that the Tories say the Ineos decision is regrettable but is a private matter between the company and the Unions and there is no current risk to fuel supplies. There is no question of a bailout or nationalisation says BBCs  N Smith. Abstaining MP is to table question after PMQs.

    36. bunter says:

      Royal babies happy Christening mentioned by PM in first few seconds. Priorities FFS!

    37. Molly says:

      Desimond I’ve tried to keep an open mind re Ineos and when Michael Connerty made the comment last week about collusion with Westminster I thought nah (and I say that as someone not a fan of Michael Connerty).
      However as you point of,for a company registered in England and for the Uk Govt to remain so silent does raise my brews a bit.
      An expert was on saying you cannot nationalise the plant only subsidise it and despite Brewers anti Chinese option last night (although Ineos already have huge agreements with Chinese companies but thats seems ok for Brewer in his double standard thought process) the timing does seem odd.
      A quick google show Ineos and Solvey have applied for clearance from the competition commission EU , yet there appears to be no option of a partnership for Grangemouth just the need for subsidies. It stinks !
       I fully support workers to be able to negotiate terms and conditions but notice on Sky underneath Grangemouth to close, Unite are calling for the Postal workers to strike , given Unite and Labours involvement in the background, I just hope the workers at G/mouth are not the sacrifial lambs for Westminster /Labour /Unite political ends.Better Together my arse!

    38. Caroline Corfield says:

      re- immigration, there is a way around the sponsorship thing but it involves moving semi-temporarily to another EU country with slightly less hysteria, then you can move within the EU avoiding the costs involved with sponsorship. The technique is called after someone’s name I can’t remember. I’m sure somebody here posted about it before, in better recalled detail 🙂
      re- Grangemouth, will it’s closure mean petrol shortages (in the event of the inevitable panic buying of course) ? Reminds me of the tactic to shut off water in the famous film “Passport to Pimlico”.

    39. Morag says:

      I take the point about possible “black ops”, but I struggle to see why on earth this debacle could possibly influence anyone to vote No.

    40. chalks says:

      @Morag
       
      Agree entirely, they have just pushed thousands into the yes camp…make no mistake about this….we must get it sorted though obviously and point out to the undecideds that this is what happens when you don’t have full control over your country.  Decisions in the hands of people you didn’t vote for, collusion between them and private companies.

    41. kininvie says:

      I don’t especially blame Unite for the Grangemouth fiasco. It was just the final straw. I suspect the plant has long been on Ineos ‘get-rid’ list, and they’ve only been hanging around to find out how much ‘investment’ they could wring out of various governments. A debt-fuelled private multinational company, living on the narrow line between profit and tits-up (they’ve already had to reschedule their debt once) is going to be ruthless when it comes to disposing of marginal assets.
       
      If anyone’s to blame, it’s ultimately BP, and the government (Thatcher I presume) which sold off the last of its stake in that company. Thereafter, BP could behave like any big multinational, selling off ‘non-core’ assets to anyone and everyone, without giving a toss about wider responsibilities…
       
      I remain mystified about Petrochina. The joint venture deal with Ineos which was supposed to guarantee the future of Grangemouth, doesn’t look as though it’s working out for them. So what are they saying/doing? Very little in public, but you can bet they will be pursuing their own interests, which are unlikely to be Scotland’s. Interesting that at the time of the JV, Michael Connarty (local MP) speculated that the Chinese really just wanted the technology – to take back home and do it for themselves…
       
      Ultimately, though, it’s my uninformed guess that the Grangemouth petrochemical plant is stuffed – no matter who owns it. And that should be  warning to anyone hoping for the nationalising route.  US gas is now one third the price of the North Sea gas (which is declining anyway). Maybe the only thing that could save it in the long run is fracking in the central belt – but that (even if it is allowed) is only just at the exploratory stage…..
       
      There’s a lot of stuff on the web in various oil industry publications to suggest that Grangemouth’s difficulties are long term and strategic (place,price,product) rather than anything to do with a workforce/management spat.
       
      Sorry to be gloomy, but has anyone got a different view?

    42. MochaChoca says:

      “Petroineos will now decide on whether to restart the refinery. This will be primarily dependent on the removal of the threat of further industrial action.”
      Best leave that up to Unite to decide then……

    43. MochaChoca says:

      Anyway, this whole thing stinks.
      A wage freeze and changes to pensions and terms wouldn’t come anywhere near eradicating the kind of losses that INEOS have been stating.
      Strikes me the decision to close was a done deal and that they’ve managed to pull the strings of the union purely to show those in other INEOS sites that if they ‘call their bluff’ they now know exactly what to expect.

    44. Edward says:

      I keep hearing references to Coryton as an example of refineries closing. This is actually not quite relevant as Coryton was a CCR (continuous catalyst regeneration ) refinery. I’m very familiar with Coryton as I was involved directly in the project logistics in the 1990’s moving materials and equipment to Coryton for Mobil, who built the CCR plant. Basically the CCR was bult for converting large stocks of leaded petrol, to unleaded high octane petrol. As there is no longer a requirement to do such large scale conversion, Coryton CCR was closed. Interestingly as a result of mergers and take overs the site ended up in the hands of BP, who then sold it to Petroplus in 2007, then Petroplus went bust in 2012

    45. Edward says:

      Eric Joyce has just stood up and placed blame on Unite’s posturing during the dispute

    46. Oneironaut says:

      “I take the point about possible “black ops”, but I struggle to see why on earth this debacle could possibly influence anyone to vote No.”
       
      It strikes me as more of a “scorched earth” policy.  A rather sickening tactic used when you know you’re going to lose a piece of territory, so you destroy every asset within it that could be valuable to your enemy before retreating.
      BT might be losing the plot, but the money men behind the scenes are more clued-in on which way the wind is blowing.  If they can do enough damage to Scotland’s infrastructure before the referendum then they can watch us struggle to rebuild while the MSM triumphantly shouts: “We told you so.  You can’t support yourselves without us!”
       
      Might even lead up to an attempt to drag the country back into the union again in the form of a bailout, but with so many strings attached we’ll all choke on them…

    47. Morag says:

      Mmmm.  Sounds complicated.  We need that Yes vote, after that we can sort it out.

    48. Les Wilson says:

      Let us not forget Labour/Unite gave them the excuse they were looking for, looking to strike for one of their officials who did WRONG.

      Well done !but suspect egg on your chin now, numpties !

    49. gordoz says:

      @Les Wilson :
       
      Let us not forget Labour/Unite gave them the excuse they were looking for, looking to strike for one of their officials who did WRONG.
      Well done !but suspect egg on your chin now, numpties !

      Spot on bud ! 

      This is why I eventually left union involvement – complete lemming approach and Labour always at the back stirring the shit (oh and then disappear, surprise surprise ).

      Wait for the headlines to come –
      “Why did Alex Salmond orchestrate the closure of Grangemouth” here we go !

    50. Yodhrin says:

      I don’t know about black ops or government collusion, but I know folk shouldn’t be jumping the gun and thinking this whole debacle is going to drive folk over to the Yes camp; I use my grandad as my barometer for “traditional tribal Labour voter” opinion, and he’s already strenuously casting about for ways to blame Salmond and the SNP for the whole affair(“They should nationalise the bloody place!” – so I explained the SG don’t have that power – “Well then, do a bailout fer them, tae keep the place open!” – I explained that the company have to be willing and they seem to want rid – “Aye well, mebe if Soapy wasnae such a balloon he’d be able tae persuade them eh!” :*( ).

    51. AnneDon says:

      Obviously the Willie Bain “principle” doesn’t hold in Westminster.

    52. cath says:

      Bit of a shame this piece was overtaken so fast by Grangemouth. Would be great to have thousands of copies printed out and handed to voters at every polling station in Dunfermline.

    53. Taranaich says:

      Aye, someone emailed it to me earlier. Cracking speech, would have appended it to the piece except for the weird bit about how the Tories would probably have opposed the Normans and Vikings. Um, weren’t those murderous invading armies? Probably fair enough in those particular cases…
       
      I twinged a wee bite there too. I’d substitute them for the Angles, Jutes & Saxons, which were a bit more of a peaceful migration (albeit with a fair bit of blood & thunder with the local Romano-British over the years, as was the style at the time.) The majority of Norse migration to the British Isles was actually fairly peaceful, but stuff like Iona, Lindisfarne and the Great Heathen Army certainly didn’t set a happy tone!

    54. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are stopping Indian students (English) from coming to the UK to study then encouraging, even more, Chinese (pop 1.2Billon) students to come and study.

      Exporting education is one of the growth areas in the UK economy, earning lots of foreign currency. India is following suit with much more restrictive visitor legislation. Tit for tat. India is a large market with a large English speaking population.

      One of the reason China has a surplus is the emerging Middle Class save to pay for education and health, which is not freely available. Putting revenues in the Chinese Nationalised Bank.

      Immigration is only 10%, it is higher in other EU countries (Germany 20%). It is not immigration that is the problem, it is the failure of Westminster gov to make the right decision, uneconomic, social and foreign policies. E.g. Illegal wars displace people and they come to the UK (illegally)

      Without immigration the population is falling. Replacement 1.4. EU immigration has peaked and the ‘baby boomers’ are passing on. Immigration from non EU countries is extremely strict and always has been, the same as most countries. There are over 2million Brits in Spain and living and working all over the world.

      The Borders Agency cost more than it saves in Scotland. Scotland has been depopulated because of Westminster centrist economic policies, which favour London SE.

      * Indian students are English speaking, because of the occupation/colonising of India by British
      Forces.

    55. Dawn Hitchings says:

      There should be people ready with signs, lining the streets, saying “Haters, go back to Westminster”.  People need to unite against the hate campaigns and deny Westminster the satisfaction of any real progress in their campaign.

    56. Ken500 says:

      Some older Indians and other Commonwealth citizens still have duel British passports. Jamaicans were invited to Britain to work in the factories. Asians came from Uganda, expelled by Idi Armin. At one time many Commonwealth citizens were entitled to dual nationality as a result of the Commonwealth occupation. Swings and roundabout.

    57. Ken500 says:

      The ‘Go Home’ lorries were declared illegal. People should get offered repatriation, if they end up in dire circumstances because of unscrupulous illegal traffickers. They coud be better off in their original country, but have no funds to return.

      The Recession is the cause of major job losses and unemployment, not the immigrants, who work hard and contribute.

    58. Tamson says:

      The abstention on the workforce compensation was by far the worst of these. Not because it was the nastiest in itself, but because it opened the door to retrospective legislation in general. Imagine a future government demanding you pay some of your pension back because they raised the retirement age. Truly frightening.

    59. Alex Clark says:

      Trident debate just starting on Parliament TV



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