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The Great British Bin Fire

Posted on December 06, 2018 by

Brexit isn’t really this site’s remit, which is why we’ve been relatively quiet in recent weeks as the UK’s shambolic exit from the EU hogs all the news and Scottish politics has been relegated to a largely-dormant backwater in the press.

Yes supporters don’t speak with one voice on the EU, and while we’re in favour of it we’ve long said that the indy movement can’t really move on until the fog clears and we know for sure what Brexit’s going to look like. Deciding whether to be part of the EU should be a decision for an independent Scotland to make, not a precondition.

But dear lord, this is such a mess it needs to be examined.

The campaign for a second EU referendum has always had a massive problem in that nobody in it can agree on what they want or what should happen.

Should it be a straight re-run of the 2016 vote? Or a “People’s Vote” (surely the most cretinous term to infect British politics in living memory – who voted last time, badgers?) on rejecting the deal without being clear about what the alternative plan is? Does anyone really believe the EU is prepared to grant the UK another couple of years to flap around the negotiating room like a headless chicken hoping for an impossible unicorn to solve a fundamentally unsolvable problem?

(You simply CANNOT avoid a hard border in Ireland AND take control of immigration AND keep trading terms the same in all parts of the UK without creating a border in the sea. Even small backwards children worked that one out some time ago. The UK wants to have its cake AND eat it AND sell it tariff-free to Belgium all at once, and when the EU patiently explains for the 5,000th time that that can’t happen for about 100 incredibly obvious reasons, the UK stamps its feet and pouts and cries.)

The most currently fashionable option – and it’s so manifestly idiotic we can scarcely bear to type this – is to hold a three-option referendum between what the Prime Minister has recently taken to robotically reciting as the available choices – her deal, no deal or no Brexit.

So YouGov put that to voters, and the result was a wholly-predictable trainwreck which would tear the country apart. The results, which the pollster is oddly reluctant to spell out directly, were a dog’s dinner vomited up onto a pig’s breakfast:

May’s deal: 27%
No deal: 27%
No Brexit (ie Remain): 46%

In other words, the “winner” was Remain, but the combined votes for Leave actually beat it by 54 to 46 – a BIGGER margin, even after the last two and a half years of mindboggling incompetence and unbroken capitulation from the UK’s negotiating team, than Leave won the actual referendum by.

So if such a referendum were to be held and the UK decided to withdraw Article 50 and stay in the EU as a result, it would be doing so despite a majority of voters having once again voted to leave, and more resoundingly than the first time – a scenario which we’d like to imagine even the most ardent Remainer can see the absolute insanity of.

A three-way referendum is clearly a lunatic idea which can never happen, and anyone advocating it can be safely dismissed as a dangerous imbecile likely to trigger a literal civil war. (So, y’know, it probably WILL happen.) But what are the alternatives?

——————————————————————————————————————-

1. A two-option referendum between May’s deal and Remain 

In effect this is a re-run of the 2016 vote but with everyone being clear this time on what a Leave vote really means. Sounds good, but it’s a complete non-starter because May’s deal has no discernible hope of getting through Parliament. Indeed, today’s papers are suggesting that it’ll be defeated so humiliatingly next week that the Prime Minister is considering calling off the vote altogether.

In any event, YouGov’s poll indicates that the outcome of such a vote would be a 50/50 dead heat, which would leave us no further forward.

Of course, if Remain DID win (let’s say 51-49), that would pretty much solve everything, right up until the riots started. Which is just one of the many reasons that there’s zero chance of such a referendum ever getting through Parliament.

2. A two-option referendum between May’s deal and no deal

This would have the benefit of almost certainly producing a large majority for the PM’s deal, and delivering a clear route map for what happens next. But again, it would be unable to get through Parliament and it certainly wouldn’t satisfy Remainers, so it’s no help to us. It’d simply be a giant waste of everyone’s time.

3. The government falls and a general election is triggered

Well, what then? If polls are even roughly accurate a new election would produce much the same situation we’re in now – a lame-duck Tory administration without the votes to push the PM’s deal through because half of its own MPs would vote against it.

And even if Labour were able to cobble together some sort of coalition, so what? They have, if anything, an even less clear idea of what they want than the Tories. It is, to say the VERY least, difficult to imagine Jeremy Corbyn thundering over to Brussels and extricating concessions that Theresa May couldn’t.

(That’s if they were willing to reopen negotiations at all, which is a long shot. The EU has the UK over a barrel and has just about run out of patience. They don’t want a no-deal Brexit, but ultimately it’d be a far bigger headache for the UK than the EU and the latter would just shrug its shoulders regretfully and watch the UK burn, pour encourager les autres.)

And of course, all that assumes there WOULD be a general election. A failed vote of no confidence would be just about the worst of all possible worlds, but is an eminently possible outcome – feuding Tories would be forced together out of the mortal horror of having to choose a new leader to fight the election, and the DUP might blink when faced with the possibility of bringing about a Labour-SNP administration, their worst nightmare.

4. Labour coalition followed by a second Leave-Remain vote

But let’s assume for the sake of argument that the election happened. Now we’re really clutching at straws. Labour would have no mandate for a second referendum, as they wouldn’t have campaigned on it. Corbyn has been repeatedly clear that Brexit should go ahead, just better, because if he was in charge then [inaudible mumble].

And say they overcame the polls, and Corbyn’s disastrous personal ratings, and somehow got into Downing Street with a leg-up from the SNP. The Nats would – we must assume, because it would be domestic suicide if they didn’t – make a second Scottish independence vote a non-negotiable condition of their support.

You’d then be looking at a second EU referendum poised on a knife-edge, quite possibly decided by a heavy Remain vote from a Scotland that voted to leave the UK a few months later (also leaving the government with no majority). That’s a can of worms the size of Mars right there. Rather you than us.

5. Labour majority followed by a second Leave-Remain vote

Ah, the unicorn. If you think there’s even the tiniest atom of a chance of a Labour majority in a 2019 general election, please get in touch as we have a bridge we’d like to sell you.

But see above – Labour would have no mandate for such a vote, Corbyn doesn’t WANT to have that vote (or he’d be campaigning for it now), and there’s no guarantee it would result in a Remain win anyway.

Regardless of their actual opinion on any given subject, the public doesn’t like having their votes disrespected. Parties which force the electorate back to the ballot box ahead of schedule are usually punished for it.

A third general election in five years and a second EU referendum in three years would sorely test voters’ patience and risk a backlash, another Leave vote, and the country back to square one. The EU would be so almightily pissed off with us it’d probably just declare flat-out war.

——————————————————————————————————————-

So which of those booby prizes is coming out of the tombola? Our money (and it’s a very SMALL amount of money, because who knows what fresh hell might dawn tomorrow?) is still on none of them – May’s deal will be defeated, there’ll be some more inept flapping and stumbling, and the UK will crash out of the EU with no deal, whether there is or isn’t a general election in the meantime.

(If there is, the Brexit might be in May rather than in March.)

That would be a disaster on an unprecedented peacetime scale, but the reality is that so far as the majority of the principal political players are concerned, all the possible alternatives are worse. Rather like the First World War – which basically happened despite none of the participants really wanting it to – Brexit now has a momentum which is almost impossible to stop.

And there’s this: none of the people with power actually want to stop it anyway.

As for Scotland, all it can do now is glance with increasing urgency at the emergency exit as the cliff edge looms ever closer.

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    1. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Has anyone asked the citizens of the ‘other’ 27 EU nations if they would now quite like the UK to just fuck off?

    2. Mark Bluth says:

      Poor analysis ignoring the consequences of the Grieve amendment being g passed.

    3. finnz says:

      Is there anyone that thinks May could actually squeeze her way through this and get her deal through parliament.

      I don’t think we can ever underestimate the Tories in doing the right thing, and look after themselves

    4. bobajock says:

      Funnily enough – check the bookies …

      Oh no.

    5. Dr Jim says:

      After FMQs this morning one of Toodle ooh the Noo’s journalistic chums argued that the politicians should listen to the people of Scotland who voted leave because that was the consensus of the UK ?????

      Perhaps history will not look on David Cameron well and actually as being even weaker than Theresa May for causing all of this then doing a runner leaving the entire British Isles at the mercy of racists and complete Zoomers

      This IS a case of a big boy did it and ran away

      If it turns out by some miracle the UK agrees to remain in the EU then the EU should insert a new clause stating that if the UK comes up with this crap again it’s out out out without any discussion on anything for wasting the worlds time on its own imperialistic meaningless petty domestic racist arguments

    6. geeo says:

      Not sure anyone needs to ask them, Ian.

      Kinda a given surely ?

      I suppose a question to be asked in relation to no deal, no implementation period, cliff edge lemming style suicide brexit, is this.

      Assuming Scots escape the madness for the purpose of this query, what does England produce for export to the EU which could not be produced within the EU?

      It would surely not be beyond the EU 27 to help fund member countries via EU loans/grants, to set up factories/the means, to produce current English exports within EU 27 ?

      On the other hand, could a post indy/EU England, produce current EU imports ?

      If so, at what cost ?

      Of course, if the EU were able to produce stuff that England produce, and no longer require to import, those same EU producers could become direct competitors for exporting over the rest of the world.

      A crash out brexit and a Scottish dissolution of the union, as we go back to independent status, puts the Kingdom of England in a very precarious position.

      Just imagine the reaction when it becomes clear that the SNP of all people, tried to save England from themselves.

    7. Steve B says:

      To take the metaphor of the start of WW1 a little further, you can compare the Section 50 notification letter to the European railway timetables used for troop mobilisation – once it had started, it was impossible to even pause it without having to stop it altogether …

    8. Andz says:

      I’ve seen figures bandied about (anywhere between 30% – 40%) of the electorate think a ‘no-deal’ means status quo. Go figure

    9. Excellent walk-through of the options. I’ve been thinking for a while that the only way to stop Brexit is to hold two general elections before Brexit: One (in early January) to allow Corbyn to fail to resolve anything, and a second one (in early March) to stop Brexit.

      I simply don’t think there’s enough time for a new Brexit referendum, even if the exit day gets postponed till just before the elections to the European Parliament, and it’s possible to organise general elections much more rapidly than referendums.

      Back in October I thought there might just be enough time for two GEs before Brexit. I’m afraid we’re now almost out of time for that, too.

    10. Tartan Tory says:

      Unfortunately, too many in Scotland will wait until they can feel the upsurge in their duodenal fluid (from the free-fall off the cliff) to consider getting off the bus. 🙁

    11. Vestas says:

      …and England/Wales cannot have their Brexit without Scottish resources – what would they borrow against?

      England makes very little the rest of the world wants & frankly I’d trust the Swiss more if I wanted to hide money.

      Interesting times & its fun watching the complete lunacy Westminster generates every day. Nobody is ever going to take England seriously in the next 30 years – on any matter.

      I rather suspect the A50 notification will ultimately be rescinded after the CJEU ruling at 8am (UK time) 10 December – the day before Mayhems vote – confirms the UK can continue as before should they choose.

      We’ll see but I doubt Andy Wightman et al will get much credit for a temporary resumption in English sanity.

    12. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@3.34pm

      The journalist you refer to was of course from the Daily Mail. Enough said.

      I saw a vox pop from Sky in Wales Chepstow. Welsh/English people are convinced that there are all these countries out there just queuing up to do business with the UK . One actually said all our friends from around the world will be lining up at our door to do business. They are sailing on a ship of fools and we need to pretty quickly take our leave on the good ship Independence.

    13. vagabondo says:

      6. SNP really minority government. Followed by EFTA membership, taking the UK back to where it was before joining the EEC and a reasonable interpretation of the 2016 referendum question.

    14. It’s panning out pretty much the way we have been saying on the airwaves for two years now, Stu.
      You are correct of course. The Far Right Tories and the Corbyn Reds are as one; they want out of Europe, so that they can regress to the Good Old Days of Them and Us, Master and revolting Slave, Up The Workers Red Ken Red Clydeside Everybody Knew Their Place nostalgia.
      These are dangerous times.
      It was always argued that we wait to see the whites of their eyes before we release an Indy 2 broadside, when WM and the Anglo Brit Nat Iron Heel Establishment, and Corbyn and his Marxists are as much a part of Little England as Rees Mogg, are in utter turmoil and we Scots know exactly what faces us next April.
      The Brexshit is about to hit the fan. Nicola Sturgeon has played the long game, ostensibly doing all she can to make Brexit work for Scotland, in the certain knowledge that Mundell and Tomkins and Tomson, and their SE English Masters would fuck it right up.
      Independence is our only route out of this disastrophe.
      My money is on crashing out on No Deal in March, with a snap election soon thereafter.

    15. Cubby says:

      Very enjoyable speech from Angus MacNeil on the Brexit debate today. He reminded the house that the current UK Union is actually only 96 years old and not 1000 years as some people like John Major seem to think.

      Name cringe in Angus. GRIT get right into them SNP.

    16. Thepnr says:

      I’m a lot less sceptical now than I have been about the possibility of a second EU referendum being held. If Corbyn doesn’t get his desired General Election and assuming May’s deal doesn’t pass even on a second vote then all that’s left is No Deal or a 2nd Vote.

      The horrors of a No Deal have spelt out all too clearly in recent months and even Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas so it’s certainly plausible that in this scenario enough Remainer Tories would vote with the opposition for EUref2.

      I’m sure now to be “dismissed as a dangerous imbecile likely to trigger a literal civil war” but a three option referendum is also plausible. In fact I’d go so far as to say that if there is EUref2 then most likely it will be a 3 option referendum.

      Bring on the civil war then LOL.

    17. Proud Cybernat says:

      And ALL of this mayhem would surely be resolved if, as the Rev showed MONTHS AGO, that WM put on its sensible hat and simply offered Scotland the same deal as N.I. thereby moving the EU border between Scotland and England. No problems then with the GFA which is central to the problem of a Customs Union.

      The Divided Kingdom
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/

    18. Capella says:

      What on earth has happened to the people in Moray? They can’t ALL be fisher folk and RAF.

    19. I have a headache with this stuff.

      I know what we can do lets us all vote for independence thats it sorted.

      I include Scottish racists and sectarian bigots in that invite, lets think of our families and our country let us all vote for independence.

      After independence folk can go back to being daft or hating, but they and their families will be better off bigots.

      Better off bigots got a kind of ring to it.

    20. galamcennalath says:

      I have always believed that May’s three priorities, in order, have been:

      1 Protect the integrity of the UK
      2 Achieve A Brexit, any Brexit
      3 Negotiate a good Brexit

      Rev Stu says

      Brexit now has a momentum which is almost impossible to stop. … none of the people with power actually want to stop it anyway.

      Which is very true. At this late stage it is difficult to see how it can be stopped. Too many want it, or feel obliged to let it happen. May’s WA has at its core attempts to keep NI as closely coupled to the EU as necessary, by ‘trapping’ the whole UK for many years. The accompanying future trade framework is pure waffle, so this is indeed a blind fold Brexit. The final trade deal could be hard.

      IMO May’s priorities above are being achieved, after a fashion.

      The far right would probably sacrifice NI to achieve an up front hard Brexit in the name of English Nationalism. It is becoming clear the far right is not as powerful as the media inc. BBC have been suggesting they are. Still, they might still get their crash out Brexit by default!

      So how will sanity of some sort prevail? I suspect WM and MPs haven’t quite reached the stage of panic where something sensible just has to be done!

      May’s WA is toast. The EU won’t reopen negotiations with the same UK government. It’s difficult to see MPs agreeing to just stop Brexit outright. And it’s difficult at the moment to see who or what this alternative government might be.

      Yup, Scotland needs to at least make sure the escape hatch is working and ready to be deployed!

    21. Giving Goose says:

      I can see some sort of military coup happening.
      Of course there would still be a requirement to actually solve the big issue of the relationship with the EU but short term an intervention by the military isn’t an impossibility.

      An alternative is that the Tory’s remain in power by some sort of emergency decree with a security clampdown just in case the plebs revolt.

    22. Breeks says:

      No secret I’m a committed Europhile, and I always have been, but it before there was a Brexit “debate”, (for debate read ill-informed populist rhetoric shouted out by imbeciles), there was a European debate, which was every inch as ill informed and parochial in its outlook as Brexit has been, – it just never hit the Brexit Jackpot of a referendum.

      My instincts have always been that if you’re not pro European, you just haven’t learned enough about Europe to become a pro European.

      For 40 years, we have had to put up with the BBC slagging off the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Dutch, the Spanish, the French again, ridiculing the Irish, … yet in spite of this constant drip of pernicious exceptionalism, I have never been seduced by the indoctrination, but always been embarrassed the crass rudeness of a foreign visitor to our country being exposed so such ignorance and bigotry which Great Britain seems to revel in. I genuinely grew up wondering whether German kids were sat down and made to watch The Longest Day and Battle of Britain with subtitles until they agreed that Britain was just the bestest place in the world.

      That stiff upper lip bigotry very often does smear the Europeans, but other ethnicities don’t fare any better. British Exceptionalism is not anti European, it is anti-everybody.

      But that isn’t the whole story when it comes to Europe, because over and above the common respect and courtesy I feel towards European cultures, we have the great phenomenon of the European Trading block which is the EU.

      I could sit and write for hours describing what the EU does and why it does it, but few people would bother to read it because for the same 40 years, the same British indoctrination has conditioned and essentially poisoned many peoples’ responses to the whole concept of Europe. It has left many people with a scathing cynicism of all things European which, if you enquire past the veneer, people have very little evidence or knowledge to back up.

      We see the same vilification of Alex Salmond, and the consequence where people are encouraged to dislike Alex Salmond but cannot substantiate their prejudice beyond repeating the stale lines of their indoctrination. It’s the same pattern of indoctrination which passes unchallenged because it is drip fed to us constantly…

      Perhaps the greatest positive to emerge from Brexit, indeed, perhaps the only positive to emerge from Brexit, is that people who have been born and raised in the toxic miasma of British Indoctrination are being forced to reconcile their ill informed prejudices with the truer revelations of the EU being a supremely effective trading collective which works extremely hard and extremely effectively at defending its own integrity and its members interests. When it came to Brexit negotiations, the fkd the UK off the park.

      For 40 years, as a member, the EU looked after British Interests exceedingly well, in spite of Britiain’s pig headed obstructiveness and arrogance.

      Far from being the enemy which we “all conquering Brits” have to tolerate and patronise, the EU has driven up standards throughout all aspects of our everyday lives, saving us from the archetypal Chlorinated Chicken to the lead content in paint. We pride ourselves that Scottish Beef and lamb is the finest on the planet, but if we were working to Trans-Atlantic Food Standards rather EU Food standards, we simply couldn’t even sell our produce in Europe. Think about that. Your mince and tattles no tasting just right?

      How tiresome the rhetoric runs that the EU is undemocratic and an overblown encumbrance on Government… Hello! You do realise the UK’s Mother of all Parliaments has an unelected chamber of hereditary sitting peers in Government and an unelected Monarch sitting over them? I’m confused. Please articulate where this aversion to the EU’s undemocratic credentials actually originates… because between you and me, it kinda resembles a screaming hypocrisy and embarrassing lack of self awareness. Not to mention the actual truth that the EU is democratic to a fault.

      If you’re not pro European, then before you jump up and down demanding a referendum to stop being European, go and spend some time in Europe, do some actual research into what Europe actually does, and stop listening to the whiny BritNat Exceptionalists who resent the fact that Europe is narrowing down the shortcuts liberties for crooks, tricksters and spivs who line their pockets at the expense of the little guys.

      If you are seriously in doubt, and riven with anxiety, then please, sit down, relax, and do nothing. Everything will be fine. For the love of God, whatever you do, DO NOT take a running jump through a plate glass window into the gaping chasm of darkness outside and vote for Brexit. Brexit …is …stupid. You’ll only go and ruin your country’s economy, blight the lives of its population for decades and make your country the laughing stock of the entire planet.

      Or, we could stay in Europe with our friends, drinking wine, eating meat free from growth hormones and antibiotics that doesn’t shrink our testicles and make us grow breasts, and enjoying fruit and vegetables which were pollinated by real bees we didn’t accidentally eradicate with organophosphates, short sighted habitat destruction and denial of Climate change.

    23. twathater says:

      I just phoned Kirsteen of the hair to ask her opinion and what she will vote for , after a lot of unintelligible screaming and wailing she was heard to utter ” I’m just not gonnae vote it’s to harrrrrd ” at that I put the phone down and decided not to call the fluffster or Ross thomo

      That post btw Stu reminded me of Dr Jim’s puzzle posts

    24. Macart says:

      Brexit is a runaway narrative and to all intents and purposes, a runaway train. I can’t see it not happening at this stage tbh.

      Next week ought to see the pot coming to a boil.

    25. Nigel says:

      “As for Scotland, all it can do now is glance with increasing urgency at the emergency exit as the cliff edge looms ever closer.”

      I have been tugging at the emergency exit door for years’ now. Feckin’ thing won’t open…

      Time is definitely running out and I cannot but agree with the Rev – Hard Brexit is is most likely to be and I suspect that’s the objective, ultimately. The Draft Agreement will be just a way of the hard line Tories and political elite saying ‘We tried and yet the EU did the dirty on us’ sort of justification. Tories will blame everyone else but themselves.

      I sincerely hope the ‘powers that be’ at Holyrood have got the door keys…

    26. geeo says:

      In response to Ian Blackford at PMQ’s, treeza stated that her government would not be revoking Article 50, so there.

      If the PM does not understand the concept that the ECJ have handed PARLIAMENT the right to revoke Article 50, NOT her government, then perhaps that explains rather a lot about why brexit is an utter shambles.

    27. galamcennalath says:

      There is another option I’ve seen in print a few times. A government of ‘national’ unity.

      One way it was described (can’t remember where) was for Liz Windsor to invite a selection of cross party moderates to form a government. I can only assume this would happen if the Establishment felt it was their best chance of retaining their power and wealth!

      I suppose if such a ‘committee’ excluded the current main players, it could approach the EU, as a clean brush, and ask for cancellation, extensions or whatever.

      Though, of course anything like this would be useless if it didn’t offer something different. Offer the UK and the EU a path which could actually be followed.

    28. jfngw says:

      Breaking News: Mundell not to resign (again).

      He reminds be of one of those soft poo’s that stick to the back of the pan but don’t have enough integrity to stay there, just slowly slink into the water.

    29. Thepnr says:

      Is a No Deal Brexit really the most likely outcome now?

      I can’t see anyway it can be, who actually wants no deal? As far as I can see maybe 50 or so ERG hard right wing Tories and a few other like Johnson and Davies. Add them to a handful of Labour MP’s and the DUP you have less than 100 MP’s actively seeking No deal.

      The remainder of the 650 elected MP’s aren’t just going to say “oh that’s it then, we fail, I give up” when faced with the reality of No deal even as late as the 28th March.

      So that’s my hat in the ring then and it’s No chance of No deal.

    30. Capella says:

      What is even more startling is the map of how constituencies would vote if presented with these three options. Their first preference is for No Brexit – 600 constituencies. Next comes the Deal – 30 constituencies and last is no deal – 2 constituencies.

      So it looks like we are heading for the option that only two constituencies in the UK would vote for.

      One of the two is in London – the City? The other looks like the Isle of Wight and area, presumably where all the City fat cats retire.

      https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1070665647175159808

    31. galamcennalath says:

      geeo says:

      PM does not understand the concept that the ECJ have handed PARLIAMENT the right to revoke Article 50

      Indeed. I notice she said “not government policy”.

      Of course it isn’t, or we wouldn’t be in this mess. Time and time again, when questioned, it’s quite apparent she isn’t the brightest.

      Not only that, she has lost the plot in not understanding Parliament has the ultimate power, not her or her government.

      WM stinks, but at least that aspect is clear.

    32. geeo says:

      I still reminisce in wonder at that greatest of statements…

      “No deal is better than a bad deal”

      Unless its treeza’s bad deal, then “no hope deal is better than no deal” but then along comes “any deal, bad, hopeless or non existent, is better than no brexit” .

      Of course, when all else fails, there is tgat other classic ….”Brexit means Brexit”!

    33. Daisy Walker says:

      @’galamcennalath says:
      6 December, 2018 at 4:09 pm
      I have always believed that May’s three priorities, in order, have been:

      1 Protect the integrity of the UK
      2 Achieve A Brexit, any Brexit
      3 Negotiate a good Brexit’

      With respect, I disagree –

      TM’s deal hives off NI in a way that makes Irish re-unification almost a done deal. Breaks to terms of the Treaty of Union and opens the way for it to be legally challenged.

      Brexit, nothing about Brexit makes any sense, if the EU did not exist, we would sit round the table and invent it.

      Think about it? If you make and sell widgets, and export them to more than one other country, do you really want to have to meet a whole raft of different safety standards one set for each country, or just the one.
      Any legal disagreements – fight them in multiple courts (over and over again), or just one.
      Want peaceful neighbours on your border – exploit that countries people, or have a system of government that enables structured investment.
      Want peace in the world – endorse and stand up for Human Rights.
      Recognise that environmental pollution does not stop at borders and want to do something about it? The EU delivers.
      Want long distance lorry drivers, or doctors, to not crash and kill people due to fatigue- working time directive.

      So when the Brexiteers talk about ‘taking back control’, over what? Can anyone give some example of what magical new law they want, or what EU law has infringed them to such a bad extent. Honestly,I’ve been reading about it almost every day now for more than 2 years, where is their brilliant, test case, example. I hear lots and lots of cliches, but no evidence.

      Taking back control of Immigration – the Tories don’t give a shit about immigration, it was never an issue for them. They like poor people to exploit.

      The first place TM went to visit was India, to try and get a trade deal, and it was made clear, any such deal with them would involve free movement of Indian people into the UK. JRMogg went on TV to state he didn’t have an issue with this.

      Strip all the crap about Brexit back, and what you are left with is the elite 1%, who have for 100’s of years, exploited people, countries, continents, and then stashed that money away in Tax Havens, now feeling extremely threatened by the EU’s Tax Haven Legislation coming in as of 1/1/19.

      Any deal which keeps the UK under the jurisdiction of the ECJ means that the Tax Haven laws come into play.

      It is a mountain of ill gotten gains.
      By comparison – as much as they need Scotland’s Oil, Gas, renewables, and water – Scotland is a building full of cash,
      And to keep their little helpers happy – the baubles and sweeties – the room with the ready cash box, is the selling off of state assets like the NHS.

      TM’s deal managed the un-doable, she managed to get some form of mainland British access to the EU market – Free from the ECJ jurisdiction. Which safeguards the tax havens.
      Safeguarding the tax havens is TM’s first and overwhelming priority, whether it is by a deal, or no deal – either outcome works. Attempting the deal makes her look like she’s trying and burns up the clock.

      I suspect the EU agreed to TM’s deal because they knew it would never pass legal scrutiny.

      Brexshit is all about the 1% having their wealth exposed and having to pay taxes. And if you ever want that to happen, it will take an organisation as big as the EU to deliver it.

      No disrespect intended in any of the above. Kind regards to all.

    34. Proud Cybernat says:

      Or what about this from James O’Brien:

      James O’Brien
      ?Verified account
      @mrjamesob

      How about a General Election where Labour & the Conservatives have to put up two candidates in each constituency: one Leave, one Remain.

    35. Craig P says:

      So, nobody else finding this mess hilarious?

      “Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive, but to be cynical was very heaven”

    36. Martin says:

      Capella says:

      6 December, 2018 at 4:04 pm

      What on earth has happened to the people in Moray? They can’t ALL be fisher folk and RAF

      The ones asked in the poll may well have been (numbers could have been tiny). This is the problem with subsampling. The map is nice and pretty and “fels” right but the poll was set up to answer a question or 4 UK wide, not represent each constituency

    37. red sunset says:

      Just have to say, Breeks’ post at 4.16pm is fab.

      Hits all the nails, on all the heads.

      And obviously the Rev’s analysis goes right to the core.

    38. Thepnr says:

      This is a very interesting look at the numbers expected to vote for or against May’s deal next Tuesday. Politicshome have put together the views of the other media that are supposedly measuring these things.

      What is clear is that it is even worse for May than I thought.

      https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/feature/100381/explained-how-political-media-thinks-parliaments

    39. Andy-B says:

      Its a bloody mess we didn’t create, lets get our things and leave. For if we stay we’ll end up having clean up for decades a mess that was created by the British government.

    40. Welsh Sion says:

      O/T

      Watch this space. The new Welsh First Minister-elect, Mark Drakeford, 64, is in favour of copying the SNP position regarding babies and giving them a baby box. You heard it here first! 🙂

    41. ichill says:

      Excellent post that should be read by everyone in the land.

      However, surely no deal doesn’t even have to be on the ballot?

      If May’s deal or remain don’t happen then in 4 months no deal is the default (dare I say it, deserved) outcome. Diety help us all.

      IF ($MayDeal=0) AND ($Remain=0) THEN ($No Deal=1)

    42. Dave Hansell says:

      “Of course, if Remain DID win (let’s say 51-49), that would pretty much solve everything, right up until the riots started.”

      That could very well work both ways in terms of rioting or even CW following a hard no deal Brexit. There could benefit be more than two sides involved?

    43. twathater says:

      @ Breeks 4.16 pm. very well said breeks, prior to the EU ref I was a switherer but decided to try to edumacate my opinion , so I investigated all sorts of sites , one of the sites was a link put up by someone on wings , ( possibly our own rapporteur the super NANA ) the site was Prof Mark Duggan and he explained a great deal along with others which led to my voting remain .

      Don’t get me wrong there are things that are wrong with the EU that need to be addressed , but the britnats forget or just don’t want to remember that the yookay has had a very important seat at the EU and has been mahoosively involved in ALL the lawmaking and major decisions within the block , they have also had rebates and subsidies which they have squandered and misused , TBH I feel that the EU would benefit more if the britnats did leave because they will NEVER be satisfied , it’s their ba and they’ll jist go in a huff if ye don’t dae whit yer telt

      Most Scots want to be fair and reasonable hence why we’ve put up with their shite for 300+ years but we cannot be RIPPED out of this club at the behest of a BULLYING EXCEPTIONALIST TRIBE , WE ARE SOVEREIGN AND WE WILL DECIDE OUR FUTURE

    44. manandboy says:

      No voters in Indy14 were told NOT to stick with Westminster. But they went ahead and did it anyway. Now we’re all standing, staring at a pyroclastic flow coming straight at us. We could escape by rescinding Article 50, but there is little evidence we are not going to see a repeat of IndyRef14 with Brexit.
      Lots of people seem to be just deaf & blind.

      But the real culprits are the Establishment.It is they who are driving this train. Lets face it, with Austerity and further extensive privatisation of the NHS et al, they plan to trash the UK anyway.
      Their love of taxpayers’ money and national assets, is the root of all the UK’s current evils.

    45. Bill McDermott says:

      It might be wishful thinking on my part but what is wrong with a three option referendum using preference votes.

      It is arguable whether May’s deal people would opt for ‘no deal’ as their second preference – even some ERG MPs are saying that they would rather stay in the EU than vote for May’s deal.

      I admit there is a risk that 2016 will be repeated, but with a strong remain vote in Scotland that would be the time to strike out for Chiltern Hundreds solution to end the Union once and for all. Alternatively if May gives up and Corbyn takes over then Nicola should be seeking a differential for Scotland en route to our final independence.

    46. RyMc says:

      @Breeks

      Well said, I’m using that! I wish people would wake the fuck up!!

    47. manandboy

      Hate to correct you old bean but austerity has actually ended.

      I know this because the Tories said so.

      You are right about the NHS though.

    48. Dan Huil says:

      @Capella 4:04 pm

      “What on earth has happened to the people in Moray? They can’t ALL be fisher folk and RAF.”

      Hello Capella. If you’re going by the wee red bit in the Rev’s map that ain’t Moray. Banff and Buchan I think.

      Anyway, often Moray certainly feels like a large English military base. Not that many fisher folk left in Moray too.

    49. manandboy says:

      Stopping Brexit is one thing.
      Stopping the greed of the Establishment elite will be quite another.

    50. brewsed says:

      Amid all the noise of Brexit we tend to forget this all started as a ploy to unite the Tories – that went well then.

      I don’t disagree with the Rev’s statement: ‘Brexit now has a momentum which is almost impossible to stop.’ Because Westminster seems to have boxed itself into a corner; a motion banning ‘no deal’ has been passed, the vote for the deal on offer is likely to fail and the alternative, remain, however achieved, would result in a breakdown within the current English political system and possibly civic unrest. However, the default, after failing to agree on anything else, will be ‘no deal’ and that, too, would result in a breakdown within the current English political system and possibly civic unrest.

      I cannot see how the English politico breaks out of this Gordian Knot and it a predominately English problem, bedevilled by grandstanding ignoramuses one of whom, for example, didn’t realise how reliant the UK was on the Dover-Calais crossing.

      It will come as no surprise to hear that, in Scotland, and possibly elsewhere, constituency associations are gearing up for a general election. Campaigning, during winter (urgh!), will have to be comprehensive and coordinated because it could be the last opportunity to do so.

      Keep Calm. There is light at the end of the tunnel and, hopefully, it is not an oncoming train.

    51. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      vagabondo @ 15:46:

      […] EFTA membership, taking the UK back to where it was before joining the EEC [sic] and a reasonable interpretation of the 2016 referendum question.

      It may be your interpretation, but it’s no way a reasonable one by any standard except that of yer average Brexiteer zoomer.

      The people of Scotland (apart from the disenfranchised young ‘uns whose future it is more than anyone else’s, plus the long-term EU resident taxpayers, both of which groups would clearly have been even more favourable) was a majority vote to Remain.

      REMAIN. Not some random dummy’s alt-Brexit.

    52. Black Joan says:

      Yes. What Breeks said @4.16pm

    53. galamcennalath says:

      “The two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’ ….. ‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ is ranked last by an overwhelming majority of Leave voters”

      http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153

      So, contrary to what is often claimed, Leave is about xenophobia and nationalism, not disenchanted folks having a wee lash out against the system.

      That does have bearing on how people who believe they are Leaving might react if it’s all just cancelled!

      Rev Stu says

      until the riots started

      Indeed. Folks driven by xenophobia and elitist nationalism may be predisposed to open anger!

    54. Dr Jim says:

      The Harry Hill option, everybody in the UK fights to the death and whoever’s left alive gets to win an argument that none of us started

      The Tories started this all on their own and for themselves, I’d put money on anybody remembering a time when ordinary people in the nations of the UK were ever mentioning this Brexit nonsense as a topic on anybody’s political agenda, you liked one party or you didn’t like another party and you voted like that but now the Tories have elevated this stupidity to monumental proportions and increased tribal bitterness on to a murderous scale, so much so they’re talking about deploying troops and police in the event of rioting

      If this were some other country the UN would be sending in arbitration teams to try to resolve a failing government and its country’s problems, y’know a bit like the original argument over the peace process, remember that one

      All the blame for this should be laid squarely and firmly at the Tories door and even though her government has been held in contempt of parliament Theresa May the Tories are still there and that’s the fault of a compliant media for not coming down hard on them on behalf of the peoples of these Islands

      Why is it in the UK a government cannot be just thrown out of office for their behaviour, they’ve been found guilty of practically everything you can be found guilty of as a government yet they’re still there and still being allowed to set a destructive course for the British Isles that apparently for lots of reasons now prctically no one in the British Isles wants

      This whole thing has now turned into ideological madness just for the sake of winning a position only Theresa May wants

      Can we at least send for a doctor to have this woman sectioned or do we have to wait until she starts dribbling and waving her arms while she’s talking like a raving lunatic

      It’s time to escort her quietly away

    55. Thepnr says:

      @Bill McDermott

      If you go to the link in the Revs article about the Yougov poll you will find another link to download a pdf with an academic analysis of the results. Here’s a shortcut to the pdf.

      https://tinyurl.com/ybxupqo7

      This is how the 20,000+ answered in order of preferences 1, 2,3.

      Remain > Deal > No Deal 37.5
      Remain > No Deal > Deal 8.7
      Deal > Remain > No Deal 5.9
      Deal > No Deal > Remain 21.2
      No Deal > Deal > Remain 22.8
      No Deal > Remain > Deal 3.8

      The surprising figure for me is Deal > No Deal > Remain 21.2
      Work that one out?

    56. Daisy Walker says:

      Stopping Brexshit meets the requirements of the majority of the Scottish electorate but not about half of the English electorate. Can England be encouraged to let us go I wonder.

      It means trade will continue as is, with the risk of food and medical shortages, in Scotland and rUK, reduced.

      A no Deal or shit Deal Brexit means food shortages/food riots are Extremely likely and civil unrest already being emergency planned for.

      The power grab, state of emergency, holyrood closure, extremely high unemployment, are all much more do-able if there are riots in the street.

      I appreciate Brexshit feelings will run high in England if there is a cancellation, but with food on the shelves and life trundling on as it is at present, will it amount to riots? Not without some assistance I would suggest.

    57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      brewsed @ 17:11,

      If you’re right that Engexit is irreversible – and you could well be right – then I reckon it’s more likely that May will – eventually – get her deal through the HoC, as MPs of virtually all stripes look over the abyss and decide her unpalatable offer is preferable to no-deal. At least, that’s what she seems to be counting on.

      (Though falling off the edge by accident, 1914-style, can’t be completely discounted.)

    58. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Poor analysis ignoring the consequences of the Grieve amendment being g passed.”

      On you go, then. The floor is yours. Draw us your unicorn.

    59. schrodingers cat says:

      3. The government falls and a general election is triggered

      Well, what then? If polls are even roughly accurate a new election would produce much the same situation we’re in now – a lame-duck Tory administration without the votes to push the PM’s deal through because half of its own MPs would vote against it.
      —————–

      i think if a ge was called their would be a bonfire of mps wishing to stand as candidates. in both labour and tory parties

      i dont know the exact details of the selection process in the tory or labour party but seeing bojos no deal speech to the party faithful at the last tory conference and the rapturous applause it got i would argue that by the time the ge arrived, all the tory candidates would be for no deal.

      why wouldnt the tories make no deal a manifesto commitment? your own graphics show remain 52% no deal 48%

      not enough to win a euref for no deal, but probably enough to win them a ge

      the only question is how many tories would support a no brexit candidate over a no deal candidate in the inevitable tory leadership election.

      as for labour, who knows, they will descend into squabbling amogst themselves

      another reason why if i were part of the 1922 commitee, this is what i would do.

      at the moment, labour are destroying the moderate wing of the tory party, doing rees moggs dirty work for him.

      that is probably why corbyn announced today he wouldnt put forward a motion of no confidence next wed.

    60. geeo says:

      Further alluding to Daisy Walkers post on potential food shortages/supply chain delays caused by brexit, is the effect on Foodbank donations and the devastating effect on those unfortunate enough to require to use them.

      A no deal, cliff edge brexit, could literally mean people in the Uk starving to death (even more than now) as a result.

      How comforting to know that, while that happens, the government will be blaming anyone not voting for treeza’s deal.

      Absolute certainty.

    61. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 17:24

      The surprising one for me (small as it is) is

      Remain > No Deal > Deal 8.7

      I’m wondering if that reveals the extent of those who apparently believe that no-deal is a default remain.

    62. Scotspatriot says:

      Geeo ,

      I agree with the sentiment of your argument, but in Scotland, this won’t happen……even if I’m down to one tin of beans, some poor sod can have half !
      After that’s over…..Westminster will be sued !

    63. Clootie says:

      @Breeks 4:16

      …an excellent post, one of the best I have read.

    64. ronnie anderson says:

      Colin Clarck ( mp Gordon ) his constituants are ready & prepared for Brexit . I wonder if he had asked the questions or explained the conditions of Brexit . When & where did he hold those meetings ??? . or just another lying tory grandstanding .

    65. velofello says:

      Thumbs up for your post Breeks.

      Noted last night on Newsnight, the usual English pundits, and a Northern Irish politician. Scots? Welsh? No need for Scots or Welsh as they are British, as are the English pundits on the program. a precious union remember.

      Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is the declaration, and so it is quite logical to the Establishment mind to broker bespoke deals for Cyprus, Gibraltar, Isle of Man{?} and Northern Ireland as they are not British. Scotland however is clutched within the bosom of Great Britain by Treaty, and by weight of numbers Scotland wishes will hold no sway with the British Establishment.

      Scotland must wean herself away from the bosom of Britain.

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      What’s that all about, Ted?

    67. Ambrose Harper says:

      Breeks@4.16. Worth cutting and pasting.

    68. ronnie anderson says:

      If ah hud wallies they wid be ground doon watching Westminster & Brexit debate waffle waffle waffle .

    69. Andy Anderson says:

      The government has already started moved to bypass the Grieve amendment so that they can bypass parliament

    70. Welsh Sion says:

      velofello @ 5.56 pm

      Agreed – but only to point out that IoM is NOT bart of the EU nor indeed part of the UK.

    71. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I notesome suggestions that perhaps a way out would be for the UK to rejoin EFTA (the European Free Trade Area).

      Would they have the UK back? Remember, the UK was a member of EFTA, at a time when EFTA had more countries in membership than had the Common Market (as it was then).

      I have always understood the likes of Norway would be unwilling to have the UK back, a), because they reckon – the UK having stabbed them in the back once, would happily do so again. And b), because the larger UK economy would skew things and would not sit comfortably alongside the economies of the existing members.

      So, rejoining EFTA is probably another non-starter.

    72. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Remain > No Deal > Deal 8.7

      I’m wondering if that reveals the extent of those who apparently believe that no-deal is a default remain.

      Indeed.

      I keep seeing references to people thinking No-deal means nothing changes or remain or …. something very very different from what it actually means!

      If there is a ‘hidden’, and very misguided, group who aren’t fully aware of what no-deal means, then potentially the penny might drop and there’s an apparent swing towards actual remain.

      There has been so much nonsense and misinformation flying around, is it any surprise some folks are totally confused?

    73. Thepnr says:

      If you think things are hotting up now can you imagine what it would be like in the UK if we got to March and were no further forward?

      The only choices remaining being No deal or a 2nd referendum? That’s assuming May’s deal had lost two votes already and Corbyns vote of no confidence failed to win enough support.

      It would be pandemonium and a riot right enough, the BritNat press would be screaming of the terrors in store with No deal, the BBC would broadcast it 24 hours a day.

      The CBI and big business reliant on friction less trade and banking on a transition period would be going mental and their lobbyists banging down the door of No 10 and other Ministers.

      If even a couple of weeks out No deal looks the likely outcome then that’s when all hell will break loose. It’s political suicide and the EU will keep the door open right up until 23:00 GMT on 29th March to allow the UK to come to it’s senses.

      MP’s will have seen sense before then you’d like to think (or at least I would), the alternative No deal is just too batshit crazy to comprehend. But hey, shit can happen LOL.

    74. geeo says:

      Labour MP: “Just because we are told there could be a technical solution found in the future, does not mean i should start smoking now, in the hope that science will find a cure for cancer at some future point”

      Ouch…not a bad burn for a Labour MP.!

    75. Auld Rock says:

      Breeks,

      Don’t know if you were about when UK was trying to join the old European Economic Community (EEC) and good old Charles de Gaulle kept saying ‘NON’. One of his main reasons was that Little Englanders were Xenophobes and hated Johnny Foreigner – nothing has changed.

    76. yesindyref2 says:

      “The Meaningful Vote”

      Isn’t that absolutely pathetic? Put a tag on something to make it seem real.

    77. vagabondo says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 17:11

      The UK joined the EEC in 1973. The EEC morphed into the EC and then the EU in 1993.

      Of course I want Scotland to be in the EU, mostly for cultural reasons, but preferably without a Tory UK as a co-member. The UK has been a proponent of privatisation of national assets, the pandering to multinational business, money-laundering deregulated banking and much else that the Brexit campaigners blame the EU for.

      I thought that it was self-evident that a fantasy SNP-led UK Government would be accompanied by a dissolution of the 1707 Union. A short period as an independent country in EFTA could make it easier to repossess some of the nations privatised natural resources and utilities before rejoining the EU (following a referendum). EFTA membership would also leave the rUK in a better position as a trading partner and neighbour.

    78. Thepnr says:

      Forgot to mention investors pulling their cash out of the UK as fast as they can, crumbling stock markets and a run on the pound forcing May to go begging the IMF for emergency loans Hahaha

    79. manandboy says:

      Jason Smoothpiece says
      “Hate to correct you old bean but austerity has actually ended.
      I know this because the Tories said so”

      You are so right, Jason, Theresa May, and no one else I’ve read, has indeed said, ‘Austerity is over’. But, alone among the UK’s 60 million population, I don’t believe her. I’m sorry about that, Jason old bean, but it’s just the way I am.

    80. O/T

      I believe today is the 101st Anniversary of Finland’s Independence.

      Happy Independence Day – Lumi Lumi.
      Hope for Scotland to join you soon.

    81. Ian Blackford on BBC QT,

      hope he gets the boot stuck right in to the UK/BBC/GOV.

    82. galamcennalath says:

      I see a leaving drinks event at Chequers for May has been set up on Facebook.

      10000 are interested in attending!

      https://m.facebook.com/events/1047721102076153

    83. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Lest any of us lose sight of what all this Brexit-related shite is drawing attention away from:

      ‘A woman outside a shop in Glasgow today. Holding a cup for money.Spoke to her, she’s been given a flat but universal credit means she has no cash for 7wks.She’s never done this kind of thing before & she was in tears.Tories doing this.& they’re so proud of it too.’

      As tweeted by @katie1314

    84. manandboy says:

      All things being equal, which I wouldn’t bet on, after New Year, or even after Christmas, in the absence of a hard and fast decision, the UK population will start to prepare for the worst.

      And in a short time, all hell will break loose. But, I say again, in the absence of a hard and fast decision at Westminster. No pressure then.

    85. call me dave says:

      @Thepnr

      Yup! a bad day at the Black rock stock market as I sais earlier in the afternoon…I’ll be opening my portfolio about 20:30hrs ….If you don’t hear from me tomorrow …well 🙁

      Seriously though over 8yrs I’m still miles ahead of putting it under the bedspread or even in the bank.
      When independence comes things will improve.

      I’m off to bleed in the dark room for a wee while. 🙂

    86. Andy-B says:

      Meanwhile.

      RBS, the state owned bank of which the majority was purchased with taxpayers cash, is moving around £6 billion pounds worth of assets and £7 billion pounds of liabilities out of Britain and into the Netherlands due to Brexit.

      https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-banks-brexit/rbs-prepares-for-brexit-move-of-billions-of-pounds-of-assets-idUKKBN1O51QE

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      The Commons had a meaningless vote on Universal Credit leaving families starving over Christmas.

      The Commons had a meaningless vote on making poor people stick to having two kids.

      The Commons had a meaningless vote on whether to bring back hanging.

      The Commons will have a meaningless vote on whether to scrap human rights.

      Next week the Commons will have a MEANINGFUL VOTE on whether it can go back to the days of tryng to flog baubles to innocent savages in exchange for untold riches and tea bags, ably supported by a gunboat.

      Huzzah! Hurrah! Toodley-pip!

    88. Tukey says:

      A little O/T but pertinent when you think why Scotland is being ignored in Brexit and indeed could be attractive to others.

      I know, or think I know, most of the things WM is reluctant to lose as income to the big Westminster pot. I do, however, worry about the things that they do not “take” but want access to in the mid to long term.

      Faslane is the obvious one, but I am sure there are wealthy landowners willing to exchange huge areas of relatively barren granitic highlands for a peerage or lots of cash. What for? Well, away from the major fault lines, waste storage might become more attractive.

      How about the only long range rocket test range in Western Europe? The firing ranges where DU is an acceptable weapon, bombing ranges. Other countries enjoy access, the rUK could be excluded if Scotland gains Indy.

      I am sure there are more, the debate could be interesting. Possibly someone with more time and ability might take this on as a wee project.

    89. galamcennalath says:

      All plans for a TV debate between May representing her Brexit versus Corbyn representing his near identical Brexit, have been called off.

      At least that’s one crock of shite binned.

    90. Dan Huil says:

      Rich britnats say, “Buy gold!”

    91. Cubby says:

      Scot Finlayson@6.44pm

      Yes I agree and hope the SNP STARTS SHOWING MORE GRIT (get right into them).

      Throw off any remaining cringe and tell them how it is. Polite but extremely firm and assertive.

      If you want your country to be independent you have to behave as an independent country.

    92. Terence callachan says:

      Theresa May is no fool she is sorrounded by very good advisers ,Westminster will have to deal with Brexit and make no mistake they will find a way to do so, always remind yourself of what that place is capable of by reminding yourself of its historical behaviour.
      Already there is discussion that the Brexit campaign broke the law and following that there could be a court decision that includes a determination that the result was therefore invalid.
      When you have the law behind you there is every possibility that any unrest and trouble would be dealt with without a blink.
      Who knows where this is all going or how it will end but it in itself will not lead to Scottish independence we will have another debacle when Westminster goes into action to stop Scottish independence next time round.
      Bear in mind what Cameron did the day after the last Scottish independence referendum and consider what Westminster will do to Scotland after the Brexit episode passes.
      One day sooner or later Scotland will have to stand up and be counted.
      The real battle lies ahead.
      When it came to Brexit Scotland was just brushed aside with laughter and insults ,that is how Westminster does it,they have behaved this way throughout history.
      Whatever happens with Brexit none of the possible outcomes will make Scottish independence a foregone conclusion.
      That makes me sad but it’s how things are in Scotland.

    93. galamcennalath says:

      I suppose another way to look at the options is what do they mean for UKOK over the next umpteen years. No outcome is good.

      All Brexits are bad to varying degrees. So that’s easily taken care of.

      It won’t go away. Suppose May’s WA is passed, it could take as long as a decade to get a final trade agreement. This could be only the end of the beginning!

      However, even if cancelled, there are going to be problems for years. Leave voters, who thought they had it in the bag, are going to be stroppy. Riots aside …. political parties may split, politician with views out of tune with their voters are going to be ousted, UKIP or some spin off might re-emerge, incompetent Lab and Con can’t continue in their present state. Remain might be just as chaotic!

      Silver lining … Scotland has a different path to follow.

    94. Cubby says:

      thepnr@3.53pm

      You really do like your referendums. Why stop at three choices for an EU referendum.

      Multiple choices on the the horizon for indyref2 as well?

      Each voter taking 10 mins in the voting booth?

    95. Valerie says:

      Some really good posts here. Breeks, a cracker of a post. I feel your anger.

      Daisy and Dr Jim, really appreciate your work too.

      I’ve had the Parliament channel on for hours. Just want to get a flavour, and it’s a really bad, stinking taste. A continual parade of whinging gammon.

      It’s pretty clear a load of Tories simply didn’t grasp the workings of the backstop, and it’s now dawning on them in this horrible revelation, that those durty furriners are constraining their precious sovereignty. Not ONE mention of the backstop being there to protect the GFA. We know they don’t give a shit about NI, it’s a financial drain, and that Assembly is a nuisance.

      I just don’t know if May engineered this unacceptable Deal, to get to No Deal, so it can be said they tried really hard, and the EU are basterts.

      For those that mentioned the Grieve amendment. Ian Dunt posted, outraged, that there were rumours some senior Ministers were talking of ignoring it.

      I’m having a sanity break, watching Sean Penn in The First, about trying to get to Mars. Makes a lot of sense?

    96. This is part of a post I made this morning after ,listening to BBC R4 Farming today:

      About 5.50am, there was a short item about the effect Brexit would have on West Coast seafood fishermen. There are 1,400 boats on the West Coast who cast creels for prawns lobsters, langoustines etc. If they land the catch by 6pm, it can be in Boulogne market within 18 hours and from there it goes to the restaurant tables of Europe.

      4 Langoustines in Barcelona can sell for £60.00 but in London, £12.00, so for them Brexit will ’cause meltdown’. The longer the product is delayed reaching the market the decline in quality.
      When quizzed if they were against Brexit the fisherman replied yes and commented that there was too much ‘self interest’ going on with the fishermen on the East Coast.

      He then went on to say that we had to share the seas with our European fishermen as they had families to feed and businesses to run and the West Coast men are all in favour of sharing the catch ——- NOT something that will be repeated during prime time bulletins I’ll bet.

      Also something Sammy Davis DUP said while being interviewed later.
      He said that the DUP would not support any deal with a backstop in the plan. They would back the gov. in a No Confidence vote so long as the backstop has gone. Leo Varadkar and the WM gov have said there will be no Hard Border in Ireland in the event of a No Deal Brexit so that suits them.

      Surely that can’t be right? There would have to be a border somewhere?

    97. Am i right in thinking that the ECJ will announce it’s judgement on the Art 50 revocation next monday, after which it has to return to the Court of Session to be what – accepted, ratified, acknowledged?

      Will WM try to appeal against it at this stage?

    98. Simon Curran says:

      Just got a reply from my MP in which he says, “As for Northern Ireland, I don’t accept the DUP’s view that somehow the province will be cut off from the rest of Great Britain.”
      Funny that, I didn’t think Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain.

    99. Also, am I right in thinking that if, and it’s a big if, T May’s Withdrawal Agreement is passed, it gives WM powers to carry out their ‘power grab’ rendering our Continuity bill null and void. (Because of the Sewel Convention?)

      Please someone tell me I’ve got that one wrong!

      Does the status of our Continuity Bill ( and the power of Holyrood to legislate) depend on the Law Lords accepting the validity of our Bill and does that then endorse the sovereignty of Scots law which we accept but they hesitate over.

      Or am I waffling?

      Have been trying to stay abreast of things but have not been able to log on much recently and so much is going on.

      Thanks in advance.

    100. Simon Curran

      If you’re a N . Irish athlete you re part of Team GB —- I KNOW! Seems they make up the rules to suit themselves.

      It’s a bit like saying that Scotland is part of England

    101. galamcennalath says:

      A good insight into the situation in Ireland

      http://archive.is/uttYp

    102. John Young says:

      I believe the 62% Remain Vote was the first time the Sovereign People of Scotland had expressed by a majority vote, a desire to follow different path from Westminster’s.

      Next week we have the very interesting ECJ and Supreme Court constitutional decisions.

      Following this the very best Christmas present will be Nicola standing up in the Scottish Parliament and stating “ Scotland will be staying in the Customs Union and Single Market” and it will be so

    103. Dr Jim says:

      Funny how the DUP are the party not in the least bit representative of their constituents and making the most noise about not representing them, and if they get their way there’ll be very many residents of NI entirely unhappy

      I wonder if anybody’s thought how that’ll go down and or has the warning been issued to the Brits already regarding the unhappyness from the unrepresented majority of NI

    104. lumilumi says:

      Man, Rev Stu, you’re on fire with this one, pulling no punches. [thumbs up]

      Brexit is a fucking mess, whitchever way you slice it. The EU27 watch in bafflement, and try to make sense of it. The unholy mess, the square that cannot be circled is not the EU’s doing, it’s the Westminster government’s and the Westminster UK Parliament’s doing.

      Poor Scotland, with its independence aspirations and civic nationalism – self-determination, one of the most basic tenets of the UN – being ignored or jeered at in her “union of equals”. Held hostage in the UK, her resources exploited to the benefit of what are basically foreign occupiers and their toadies.

      OK, maybe too much emotive language there.

      Today is my independent country’s Independence Day, 101 years today.

      Yeah, trust Finns to have Independence Day at the most dismal time of the year. Helsinki has about 6 hrs between sunrise and sunset, and most of that time is usually cloudy, sleety, plain horrible weather. But we’re independent and we own our horrible weather and the sleet and scant daylight. Because we love our country and our independence.

      It’s been a long road, and I won’t bore you with the details. Universal suffrage (includes women, no aggressive struggle about it) and proportional representation happened in our “devolved” parliament in 1906 while we were still an “autonomous Grand Duchy” of the Russian empire.

      We then extended our autonomy, strenghtened our own currency, resisted Russification. Later on, they had a revolution, we tried to uphold our civic institutions. Lenin was so busy with the Russian revolution that he signed our independence declartion just to get rid of that distraction. Ha ha!

      Most of all, I’m glad I live in an idependent country. EU member, all’s not perfect but it could be worse. (Like English nationalist Brexit shite for Scotland. I feel for you.)

      Our national anthem is a Fennophilic poem, a ditty from Helsinki in the 19th century. Not a very subtle song, easy to belt out, Finnish lyrics by a dexterous Finnish poet/wordsmit

    105. schrodingers cat says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:
      6 December, 2018 at 6:18 pm
      I notesome suggestions that perhaps a way out would be for the UK to rejoin EFTA (the European Free Trade Area).

      Would they have the UK back? Remember, the UK was a member of EFTA, at a time when EFTA had more countries in membership than had the Common Market (as it was then).

      I have always understood the likes of Norway would be unwilling to have the UK back, a), because they reckon – the UK having stabbed them in the back once, would happily do so again. And b), because the larger UK economy would skew things and would not sit comfortably alongside the economies of the existing members.
      Socrates MacSporran says:
      6 December, 2018 at 6:18 pm
      I notesome suggestions that perhaps a way out would be for the UK to rejoin EFTA (the European Free Trade Area).

      Would they have the UK back? Remember, the UK was a member of EFTA, at a time when EFTA had more countries in membership than had the Common Market (as it was then).

      I have always understood the likes of Norway would be unwilling to have the UK back, a), because they reckon – the UK having stabbed them in the back once, would happily do so again. And b), because the larger UK economy would skew things and would not sit comfortably alongside the economies of the existing members.
      ————–

      on cue, the norwegian gov says uk would need to form its own eftauk membership, parrallel to efta but not joined to it

    106. Dr Jim says:

      Yeah, Norway doesn’t want the Brits

    107. Valerie says:

      For Meg Merrilees

      Faisal Islam sums it up here. Next week is dynamite. It’s nice that the ECJ passes their decision back to the Scottish court, to hopefully deliver the coup de grace.

      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1070643063339532288?s=19

    108. Arthur Thomson says:

      While the blood and soil Brits are theatrically deciding what Brexit they are going to coagulate around, I wonder if the EU negotiators are cowering in a corner somewhere worrying about how they can possibly cope with the outcome?

      I’ve heard it said that the Brits hold all the cards.

      As a Scot, and therefore of course an observer, I do feel for the fate of the plucky foreigners.

    109. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana re your link , theres a well known phrase in Westminster that will pass scrutiny of wording of Wee John ie Economical with the truth

    110. @lumilumi,

      Commented a few days ago about Finland building a modern state of the arts library in Helsinki to celebrate their centenary,

      i like the look of the building but, like our parliament, a lot of people are stuck in the ancient classical building design look,

      and do not understand and appreciate modern architecture with abstract shape and open plan,

      has your new library been given the thumbs up by the free citizens of Finland,(who have been voted the happiest people on earth).

    111. Frank Waring says:

      The UK can decide, until March 29 2019, to remain in the EU: but it cannot decide to ‘stop the clock’ and decide whether to remain, or not, at some later time. If the EU countries agreed unanimously to allow it, the date of leaving could be moved forward, but the fact of leaving could not be altered.

      Hence, there is not enough time to organize and hold a second referendum. So the decision will be made by the House of Commons. It would take moral courage and real mental toughness for the House of Commons to decide to stay in the EU, without having gained support for this in a referendum. If such toughness is available, why haven’t we seen it deployed already?

      So the choice is between No Deal and Mrs May’s deal. A year ago, or a month ago, I’d have said that, faced with this choice, and despite everything that’s been said, the House of Commons would in the end vote for Mrs May’s deal.

      But the weeks go by, and the days go by, and there’s still no sign of the metaphorical Home Secretary’s phone call to the Governor. One morning, it will be the Thursday after the third Sunday since conviction.

    112. Essexexile says:

      No, I’m still of the opinion that WM (whatever that means in the next few months) will go with a 3 way euref2. It’s probably the only way to actually bring closure to the Brexit fiasco – ie remain wins despite (possibly) being in the minority, and the losers just die of old age in the next 10-15 years (massive generalisation but whae the fuck?).
      And then….the precedent is set. Indyref2 is gleefully granted. ‘Now is the time’ etc etc with a 3 way ref (Yes Vs devo max Vs BT). DM wins (on the face of it, while fuck all actually changes) and indy is buried for decades.
      It’s so horribly likely to happen I could almost believe it’s been Tory plan A all along.

    113. Sarah says:

      I wouldn’t put anything past the current occupants of Westminster [other than the SNP].

      I remember the vote on whether to extend RAF involvement in the Syrian civil war. The HoC wound themselves up into a fine froth of jingoistic hysteria and lost the plot so completely that they [and the media, of course] acclaimed Hilary Benn’s performance in favour of dropping missiles on anything that moved, as that of the finest statesman in x hundred years. HILARY BENN!!! He couldn’t fight his own shadow and certainly couldn’t recognise a matter of principle, not without help from David Mundell that is.

      So I am very concerned that they will pass Mrs May’s deal because they are too gutless, dim and self-serving to put the good of our population first. But of course that is when it will become very interesting for us in Scotland.

    114. manandboy says:

      Citizens cannot be the victims of a no–deal #Brexit, nor used as bargaining chips. In the case of no deal, the @Europarl_EN wants the Citizens’ rights deal to be ring–fenced & the EU must honour this. The citizens’ rights deal shouldn’t be watered down as the UK today proposes. Guy Verhofstadt

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      So here are the options we’re facing:

      1). A General Election

      2). EU Ref 2 with 3 questions

      3). May resigns and asks the Queen to dissolve Parliament and take over the whole shooting match. Queen says yes, you’re fired, Charlie’s taking over he’s what the UK deserves and I’m orf with Phil to Monte Carlo where the weather’s warmer and I can play the slots all day. Phil’s into a bit of blackjack.

      4). UK Parliament votes unanimously to make Frankie Boyle President of the Third UK Empire. Everyone asks “what happened to the second?”. Frankie takes the title Frankie the Great.

      5). Boris Johnson announces his candidacy for Leader of the Tories and everybody laughs so hard the Palace of Westminstser which is in bad repair collpases, revealing a note from Guy Fawkes “I told you I’d get you in the end”.

      6). A passing iceberg splits the UK into little chunks, though Scotland escapes unscathed. The kings of Wessex, Cumbria, Anglia and so on declare war on each other. Nobody notices the difference.

      7). The ravens at the Tower of London fly south. Everybody gasps.

      8). William the Conqueror, who was kept in a cryogenic chamber for 900 years to emerge for the England World Cup and go back again, re-emerges and gets an arrow in the eye. He is not best pleased and calls the referee a muppet..

      9). Zombie Apocalypse was actually a documentary.

      10). In a special episode of “Warship” the skipper accuses the UK of sexism and fires all missiles as a warning. They miss and hit the targets instead. I DIDN’T MEAN THAT!

      11). The Legion of the Ninth re-emerges from hiding and takes over the UK. Everybody celebrates with pasta and Chianti. Shares in Rennies go through the glass ceiling.

      12). Nobody knows

    116. Rock says:

      “So YouGov put that to voters, and the result was a wholly-predictable trainwreck which would tear the country apart. The results, which the pollster is oddly reluctant to spell out directly, were a dog’s dinner vomited up onto a pig’s breakfast:

      May’s deal: 27%
      No deal: 27%
      No Brexit (ie Remain): 46%”

      If by “country” you mean the United Kingdom, I agree with you but you are in big trouble with Robert Peffers.

    117. dakk says:

      Lots of outlandish pointless pontification and scenario making on this site tonight.

      Think I’ll just wait and hear what John says thanks.

      McTeirnan.John McTeirnan that is.

      For my part I go for a big extension to transition period and eventual rescinding of A50 by a government of national unity or whatever they call it. All handled by the deep state and their media placemen.

      The English are not the French. A few chairs thrown across a few Town Halls will be their civil war.

      But in meantime I’m waiting on John’s word.

    118. Rock says:

      “In other words, the “winner” was Remain, but the combined votes for Leave actually beat it by 54 to 46 – a BIGGER margin”

      Saint Theresa has been absolutely democratic and right all along – “Brexit means Brexit”.

      Only the enemies of democracy are trying to overturn Brexit.

      I am in favour of Brexit and an independent Scotland.

      I am not sure if or when the former will happen but I am sure that the latter will happen in 2640 AD.

    119. Thepnr says:

      Sir Rocco Forte who’s worth a few hundred million thinks May’s deal is a disaster, maybe not for the reasons you might think.

      https://news.sky.com/video/brexit-deal-is-a-disaster-says-sir-rocco-forte-11573525

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      13. The bakers go on strike. May says “Let them eat cake”.

    121. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Frank Waring @ 21:21,

      I assume by “moving forward” you mean “delayed”, but it’s an interesting point that I hadn’t previously considered. It seems eminently plausible, but anyone know for sure if it’s true..?

    122. Rock says:

      lumilumi says:
      6 December, 2018 at 8:28 pm

      “Today is my independent country’s Independence Day, 101 years today.”

      Congratulations and thank goodness the Russians haven’t attacked yet.

      lumilumi (11th November 2016 – “Spotting the differences”):

      “But I loath and deplore and hate the re-emerging Russian nationalism, embodied by Vladimir Putin and stoked by him. He’s got his eyes on the Baltic states, and after that, even Finland.”

      Rock (11th November 2016 – “Spotting the differences”):

      “You seem to be have been completely taken in by Western propaganda.

      Who has got their eyes on all the countries surrounding Russia, especially the oil rich ones?

      Who has been sponsoring revolutions on Russia’ doorstep?

      Clinton is an anti Russian hawk and warmonger whereas Trump is much more likely to have a better relationship with Putin and Russia.

      I think that would be good for world peace.

      It was extremely foolish of European leaders, Nicola included, to have openly backed Clinton against Trump.

      If the hypocrites (Nicola excluded) really meant what they said, they should start distancing themselves away from US policies detrimental to world peace instead of blindly following them as has been the case till now.”

    123. Nana says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 6.51pm says

      ‘A woman outside a shop in Glasgow today. Holding a cup for money.Spoke to her, she’s been given a flat but universal credit means she has no cash for 7wks.She’s never done this kind of thing before & she was in tears.Tories doing this.& they’re so proud of it too.’

      Sickened by what I’m reading every day, the misery caused by the Tory policies while they stuff their fat faces in subsidised dining rooms in Westminster.

      Scotland has to end this cursed union and soon.

      The sites below are full of stories of families struggling and it’s going to get a lot worse with the roll out of Universal credit. It has just begun in Edinburgh and due to hit Glasgow areas this month

      https://www.opfs.org.uk/universal-credit-roll-dates/

      http://thirdforcenews.org.uk/tfn-news/children-to-miss-out-on-basics-at-christmas

      https://thepoorsideof.life/

    124. Rock says:

      Thepnr says:
      6 December, 2018 at 9:55 pm

      “Sir Rocco Forte who’s worth a few hundred million thinks May’s deal is a disaster”

      If it is a disaster for his few hundred million, it might not be too bad for the “plebs”.

    125. Cubby says:

      Andz@3.37pm

      Is everyone still sure referendums are a good idea?

    126. Cubby says:

      Rockshit

      Rockshit stinks to high heavens. Best to quickly walk on by as his crap is stomch turning.

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      2640). Rock finally actually says something.

    128. Rock says:

      Nana says:
      6 December, 2018 at 10:00 pm

      “Sickened by what I’m reading every day, the misery caused by the Tory policies while they stuff their fat faces in subsidised dining rooms in Westminster.”

      Scotland voted in 13 Tory MPs at the most recent election, rather than the usual 1 or 2.

      In contrast, SNP support fell from 50% to 37% with a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      Rock (4th September 2017 – “Mining the playing field”

      “I blame it mostly on Nicola wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The message should have been loud and clear from the beginning:

      Either an independent Scotland in the EU or the Scottish colony of England outside the EU.”

      If blind faith in religion is bad, blind faith in politicians is worse.

    129. Gary says:

      I’m on the YouGov panel, and I was one of the respondents to this question. I note however that by breaking a three tier choice into comparables of two they render the question meaningless.

      That aside, having gotten us to the point where a ‘deal’ has been negotiated and is about to be put to parliament the incumbent government will never offer the electorate the chance to overturn the idea of Brexit. If ANTHINGG were to be put to the people is would be a ‘deal’ or ‘no deal’ question. But parliament wouldn’t vote for that as they see it a being purely THEIR domain to settle that part of the issue.

      The idea of a People’s Vote is, therefore, dead in the water. Which is actually just as well. There would be an outcry, and I don’t just mean from those who voted LEAVE, I mean from anyone who values democracy. If the government were to put it back to us it would set a dangerous precedent. For example, moments after saying she’d support a second referendum Sturgeon was, unsurprisingly, asked if she’d support a second referendum in the event of Scotland winning a ‘Yes’ vote. They’ll use THAT stick to beat her with for many years to come, I’m sure.

      I don’t agree that a second referendum should be held. I don’t think Scotland should be dragged out (nor Northern Ireland) but I don’t believe a second referendum is required for this, only respecting what the various member states of the UK voted in the referendum.

      What I HAVE noticed is that despite Labour being ‘Her Majesty’s Opposition’ they have done little during this process to hold the government to account. The SNP, on the other hand are asking probing questions about how trade would work in a backstop and have stumped Hammond at Westminster – this was little reported however, although I HAVE noticed that SNP has had an ALMOST fair amount of coverage on this. It’s the only party not acting like a rabbit in the headlights and there’s little the BBC can do but actually show their MPs outperform Labour as an opposition party…

    130. manandboy says:

      WHERE IS BREXIT LEADING TO?

      It is said that the devil you know (EU), is better than the devil you don’t know (Brexit).

      England, whose Ruling Class sups with devil, as they spread hellish Austerity policies among the needy, is surely to let all hell break loose should a no deal be the eventual outcome of Brexit. Even the lesser May’s Brexit, will be anything but heavenly.

      But seriously, England is looking more and more distant from the ‘Jerusalem’ of times past. Nowadays, the terms malicious and malevolent are becoming more and more fitting for a country governed by an oftentimes cruel and heartless Tory government. We’ll leave corrupt, fraudulent and dishonest to one side for the moment. England is not looking good.

      Should Westminster continue with its pact with the Devil, aka neoliberalism aka systematic and government organised rapacious greed, then no good will come of it. Instead, England will discover that you reap what you sow, and that the Devil only pays out his wages in the currency of death.

      Brexit is a death spiral going down to hell.

    131. galamcennalath says:

      Cubby says:

      Is everyone still sure referendums are a good idea?

      I certainly am not so sure.

      We’ve had two big f’ck ups! Firstly Cameron changes what NO in IndyRef means when he thinks he’s losing so he could win. Then secondly no one knew what Leave in EURef meant, and it won.

      I now think a general election, parties standing on written defined manifestos, and voters expecting them to deliver what they promised is perhaps better. Of course it would need representative government and not the corrupt FPTP of WM where losers almost always win.

      If there are going to be referendums, there needs to be stricter rules and serious penalties for cheating.

      I wonder how democracies do it? 🙂

    132. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      vagabondo @ 18:35,

      Strikes me that EFTA isn’t going to be too happy simply being used as a temporary stepping-stone to something else, and (given what we know already) that the Scottish public are not going to be satisfied with just another version of a vassal state. But that’s for after, not before.

      Surely the first act of the Scottish Government after an independence decision (however arrived at) should be to fully explore all available options, make a proposal, and put it to a sovereign people for ratification in a snap referendum?

    133. Thepnr says:

      Wait until the panic buying starts emptying supermarket shelves and chemists are rationing medicines late Feb or early March and we’ll see how strong the appetite is for No deal among Westminster MP’s.

    134. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@9.23pm

      Devomax has already been promised. It was called the vow. It was reneged on. Britnat promises are worthless.

      Only a Britnat would consider it a possibility that Scotland would consider voting for something that had already been voted for previously but not delivered. Scotland will not be doing an Oliver Twist – please Sir can you please give us what we voted for the last time please please sir.

      The infamous vow is an example of the failure of referendums.

    135. Silverytay says:

      Thepnr@10.23
      Some medicines are already in short supply due to brexit .
      Last time I was in the chemist getting my medicine a chap I knew came in and asked the chemist if his medicine was in yet.
      The chemist said no and the chap said I suppose you will blame brexit .
      The chemist said yes it is and that there a lot of medicines they are having difficulty getting .
      I know of one case where the chemist ended up phoning the doctor and suggested an alternative medicine .

    136. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      After Independence there should be no more “snap” anything. We should take our time lay out carefully all the options, provide all the relevant information and let the people make an informed decision.

      I think that’s what you might have meant 🙂

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      Rennie’s diong a good job to be fair, and I have no intention of saying why.

    138. Sarah says:

      @Robert J Sutherland and Thepnr
      To make any vote an informed one requires that the law be changed that currently allows “political lies” to be told. I wonder if Holyrood has the power to pass a law to make all politicians speeches/communications truthful – no manipulation or deceit by omission etc allowed. So much time is currently wasted in parliaments and the media talking about things which are a fabrication – if they were confined to the truth we would all find ourselves with more time to consider issues properly.

      As Nana said [and Philip Alston, UN poverty guy], the state of our society is inexcusable – there is no need for all this suffering caused by political ideology of Tories, Labour and LibDems. We must NOT let it go on any longer.

    139. Cubby says:

      Gary@10.18pm

      “Only respecting what the various member states of the UK voted in the referendum” This was what Sturgeon proposed. But the Britnat media called it a Scottish veto. They never called what actually happened an English veto over Scotland/N.Ireland.

      That of course was an option that Cameron being a remainer could have chosen and we would not have had the omnishambles of the last 2.5 years. But as Cameron is an English supremacist Britnat he could not actually allow it to be seen that Scotland or indeed Wales or N.Ireland had any power in their precious Union that is not a Union but an English controlled country.

      English control over the union superseded the risk of losing the EU ref and him losing his job.

    140. ronnie anderson says:

      Yesindyref2 {Rennies doing ah good joab LoL ) i’ve found Bicarbonate of Soda works better BURP.

    141. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 10:32,

      Not even close.

      People are fed up already, and another extensive round of argy-bargy, even honest argy-bargy as Sarah rightly wants, is not going to go down well. What I’m proposing is that our own government of good people whom we trust would look into that with some care but also expedition, then we decide whether we underwrite their proposal or not.

      After things have stabilised and attitudes become less tainted by pernicious propaganda as Breeks correctly observed upthread, we can always revisit as the situation demands.

    142. Nana says:

      The ever changing Tory shitshow

      Theresa May’s Team Has Discussed A Second Referendum Or A Softer Brexit If Her Deal Is Killed Next Week

      Will not archive
      https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/may-team-second-referendum-soft-brexit

    143. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@10.20pm

      There were clearly no penalties for Westminster for first of all breaking the agreement on the referendum by issuing the Vow.

      Secondly, there were clearly no penalties for not implementing the Vow.

      Lessons.

      1.I am not sure what penalties could possibly compensate for losing Indyref2 if it is won by cheating.

      2. Recent events show that if cheating helps win referendums/elections – the Britnat attitude is -penalties so what if you are caught it was worth it.

      3. The Britnats will cheat as much as they can get away with. So I suggest prevention is the key.

      4. Is a referendum or an election easier to cheat? I would suggest a referendum is easier to cheat.

      5. Stricter rules seems to me the way forward and I do NOT mean stopping the English voting or any of that sort of stuff.

    144. jfngw says:

      Love the Christine Jardine video, she is fed up with the SNP wanting to do what is good for Scotland. Well as NI has a special deal and she is not wanting to stand up for Scotland my conclusion is she is demanding we stand up for England and Wales. She dresses it up as the UK but if it is bad for Scotland then presumably it must be good for the others.

      The LibDem party certainly seems to be full of diddies, and not the funny Ken Dodd type.

    145. Moonlight says:

      Mays way out.

      Theresa receives irrefutable evidence that the Leave side of the EUref acted illegally and the vote was rigged.
      Theresa announces that in the interests of fairness and justice the result cannot stand.
      Thresa cancels Art 50 letter in the interests of fairness and justice.
      She’s off the hook!!

    146. manandboy says:

      Theresa May’s team. All at sea, or out of their depth.

      One thing’s for sure, she picked them. They are a reflection of her.

      Sixty million people being governed by pompous incompetents.

      Scotland’s independence simply has to be secured.

      Hail Caesar!.

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      @ronnie anderson
      Sturgeon has a strong digestion.

    148. Thepnr says:

      @Silverytay

      Yes I have also read of rationing or shortages of medicine at chemists through a link supplied by Nana. These are personal anecdotes but I have no reason to disbelieve them.

      The only reason I can possibly think of though for them being true is the the pharmaceutical companies and the distributors have been ordered to stockpile them too.

      If true then rationing has already begun to some extent without a “no deal” Brexit happening yet and for now it’s just in case. I really don’t fancy the real thing. Who would?

    149. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve just been watching

    150. robertknight says:

      Said it before, those clamouring for Indyref2 would do well to read up on the second Québec referendum.

      Who will we be expecting to bankroll the next Yes campaign? The Weirs again? Bet your last Euro the likes of J K K Rowling-in-it and other Yoon establishment luvvies will be only too happy to dig deep – the SiU Ragman Roll only listed their larger donors. As for those who didn’t make that particular list – mony a mickle maks a muckle.

      Indyref2 is easy to holler about – the practicalities however; legal, financial and organisational, are huge.

      Changing current SNP policy so that a majority of MPs returned at the next UK GE plus a majority SNP Govt. at Holyrood should be seen as a green light to repeal the Union with England Act, 1707. This may be a more straightforward route.

    151. Dr Jim says:

      Oooh that post jumped on before I did anything

      So I was saying I’ve just been watching QT and I’m 100% totally convinced now no matter what happens England must be dumped and dumped from a very high height, these folks down there have’nt the first clue about what’s happening, then James Brokenshire Englandsplains to Ian Blackford about the UK wide drivel Ian Blackford responds by saying well Scotland’s off then and you could feel the audience antipathy towards Mr Blackford as if he was non existant nuisance Scottish shoe crap then Dumbledore laughs his head off that’s you Jocky trash told

      I don’t normally watch the garbage but I did tonight and I’m glad I did because I’ve gone full on bitter as hell now and sick of their superiority crap

    152. call me dave says:

      Jings SNP finally get on QT.

      I Blackford doing well, although diplomatic and not scaring any horses for a while, but getting much applause from the audience on the Brexit Q’s.

      He eventually cracked however when he said Scotland was heading for independence…audience silence…(I’m sure I heard a couple of jungle crickets..chirrup! chirrup!)

      You could feel the fear!

      I switched off when they moved onto other things. 🙂

    153. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Just one in the audience clapped Blackford when he said we would go Independent if (whatever), something Bore Dimbleby described as a one-hand clap.

      Shows just how balanced the audience is.

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby

      In total, only 336 cases of electoral fraud were alleged in 2017. Across all local, devolved and general elections, there were only eight cautions and one conviction issued related to electoral fraud, of which only the sole conviction related to personation.

      Itr’s an anti-voterID organisation so biased, but there’s some interesting stuff there.

      https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/2018-Voter-ID-Trials.pdf

    155. Cubby says:

      Question Time

      Blackford says on QT that the Maybot is lying.

      Well anybody that knows anything hears her lying every week at PMQs.

      Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

    156. mike cassidy says:

      Dr Jim.

      Stop watching Gammon Time!

      Its bad for your eyes!

      http://archive.is/xANEB

    157. Frank Waring says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland at 9:28. Yes, I’m fairly sure I’m right. Remember that the Article 50 process was designed to prevent the leaving country dragging things out to secure a better deal. The EU is a party to the case before the ECJ, and it argued that Article 50 notification should not be revocable by the leaving country alone. The proposed judgement of the Court, as I understand it, is that a leaving country can only revoke its intention to leave if its intention is now to remain. Of course, it could give in its notice of intention to leave again, at some point in the future, but the negotiation would have to begin all over again. ‘Remain’ is only an option before March 29 next year.

    158. Dr Jim says:

      mike cassidy

      You’re right I remember when they said TV would be bad for our eyes and all these years later they’ve been proved right

    159. Dr Jim says:

      Our FM is still working
      I’ve got my Goonie oan and she’s still grafting

    160. James Brokenrecord on QT was a clone of shouty Theresa. Speak loud, strong and stable and be British (English). That olde one about ‘We voted as the U.K.’ not again. Worn thin.
      The Labour lassie was spoken over most times too. As for the relic ex editor. Who cares what he rambles on about?

    161. yesindyref2 says:

      Larry the cat has been given an engraved collar ID tag. It says

      Larry the Cat
      The Shambles
      W1 5KR

    162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 23:03,

      Or even do without an EuR2 in the first instance, since there would almost certainly have to be an immediate SGE, in which each party would have to propose its policy in that regard and live with the consequences, both electoral and subsequent. (It is amusing to speculate what the ScotTory and ScotLabour platforms might be then. =grin=)

      But in any event go into IR2 promising a review after a suitable period (say 5 or 10 years) to establish stability and better public appreciation of the realities. At the moment people are just too befuddled to be able to contribute meaningfully to a decision.

    163. yesindyref2 says:

      Apparently what he really wanted was one saying

      Larry the Cat
      Bute House
      EH0 4YE

      but was told “Now is not the time”.

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      Yeah, I like Ian Blackford. Wasn’t sure to start with, but he’s just the job. The full package!

    165. Contrary says:

      Well, I thought the questions posed in a new EU ref might be along the lines of:

      1. Remain a EU member
      2. Leave the EU but retain customs union and free trade
      3. Leave the EU and enter into a new EEA agreement retaining membership of all EU institutions except EU parliament
      4. Leave the EU with the government proposed deal.

      That’s more than two options, but for some reason I imagined people ranking them, like in an STV vote. (There is no no-deal option, because that would be fully self-destructive). People would have to be a bit better informed to consider which they prefer – so the nonsense spouted at the last referendum wouldn’t do. Would preferences work? STV is meant to be the most representative system we have was my thinking.

    166. Graeme McAllan says:

      The Buckie has been flowing 😉

    167. call me dave says:

      A government of ‘National Unity’ mentioned again on big Auntie Radio 5 live tonight to’sort out’ the Brexit situation QT phone in.

      Lots of folk darn Sarf quite prepared to inflict self harm on themselves and their families and the UK in general just to get Brexit done and most of them have little idea of the full consequences or even what’s going on…. Crazy!

    168. Cubby says:

      The Benefits of Question Time from an English location to a Scottish Audience.

      1. It makes it clear how little many english people and their politicians care about Scotland even though the same people will probably make the claim that we are all the one country.

      2. It makes it clear that many English see Scotland as their possession and do not like someone suggesting that it is being taken away from them although at the same time they do not really think about or care about Scotland that much.

      3. It makes it clear just how Scotland and England are diverging and are well apart in so many areas.

      4. It makes it clear just how right wing England is becoming and how far right it will still go in future.

      5. Sadly English exceptionalism and good old British empire supremacy comes out in the audience.
      The need to ridicule any panel members from Scotland/Wales/ Ireland is often displayed by the old Etonian to reinforce the English superiority complex.

      So, in summary, even a crap programme like QT helps the independence cause even though that is not its intention.

    169. Cubby says:

      Contrary@1.03am

      Option 5 Scotland should be an independent country in the EU.

      Option 5 gets my vote.

    170. Kenno says:

      Brexit will lead to Scottish Independence And I can see a Border Poll being held to Unify the Island of Ireland with a majority voting Yes for Irish Unification.

      Ra Union is deed!!!

    171. Contrary says:

      Cubby@1.18am

      Haha, good question and the right answer! But it isn’t a question I would put to the English electorate!!

    172. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@11.50pm

      Thanks for the link. I’ll have a look at it.

      Question for you. If the SNP change their policy from independence refs to something else are you going to change yesindyref2. LOL Yesindyge doesn’t have the same ring about it.

    173. Cubby says:

      Contrary@1.23am

      Why not – we might get lucky and get a majority of English voting for our independence. After all they have been conditioned that they support us to a tune of £13-15 billion p.a. They are not too happy giving the money to the EU we might be next for them to vote to leave us. LOL.

    174. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight@11.37pm

      You make some very valid points.

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      Good God no. If the SNP stopped supporting Independence, I’d either change my vote to an Indy supporting party, or start my own. Or move to Ireland.

    176. Kangaroo says:

      Predictions for next week

      Monday ECJ rules in line with previous opinion. That A50 is revocable by the leaving country in accordance with its constitution.
      Tuesday The May bots deal is voted down.
      Wednesday Labour bottle it and there is no “no confidence” motion
      Thursday SC Rules that Scottish Sovereignty rests with the people who authorise their Westminster MPs to represent Scottish Sovereignty in Westminster. Englsh MPs represent Englsh Sovereignty in Westminster. There is therefore a political stalemate in Westminster as both Sovereignties have to vote the same way for motions to pass.

      Later
      Turmoil ensues when Scots having voted to Remain send a letter to the EU requesting recognition of Scotland as a Sovereign member state on the same terms that the UK currently enjoys.
      Unionists go apoplectic at the realisation that Scotland is almost independent.
      Scots MPs instruct the Bank of England to set up a full copy of the Bank North of the Border. A New Scotspound is introduced and England disappears up its own sphincter.

    177. K1 says:

      Prediction:

      We’re aw left baffled by the fudge that they manage tae scrape the gether…and none the wiser about what course our gov will take in response. The uncertainty continues past new year as everyone goes intae holiday mode. Either that or indyref2 is called and the campaign begins in earnest frankly…man the lifeboats.

    178. Ian McCubbin says:

      Personally I would not be interested in voting in it. Our issue is just to leave UK union now.
      I do not think a people’s vote wl happen. If it did May won’t listen.
      Labour are shambolic and don’t even seem interested anyway.

    179. Golfnut says:

      No comments since 3:35?

    180. Golfnut says:

      Strange, I had to post a comment before seeing other comments.

    181. Ken500 says:

      This carry on was happening 30 years ago. The Tories and the EU. It brought down Thatcher and it will bring down May. Just going the same way. Sanctioning and starving people. Universal credit. Violence and rioting in the streets. Unemployment 18%. The only place it was under 10% was London S/E. inflation up to 25% and interest rates at 15%+. The Polls tax. Scottish Devolution delayed for 20 years. The Tories are a disgrace. 30 years in the wilderness awaits.

      It’s like Deja Vu. The Tory/unionists lies.

      Dimbleby will soon be retired. Another one down, another one gone, another one hits the dust. Will Fiona Bruce be as bad. Probably.

      Thank goodness for the SNP. Standing up for Scotland. Would not like to see the state of it, otherwise. Independence can’t come soon enough.

      The fantasy scenarios coming out now, as May hits the dust. Join trade missions etc. Not new best friends again. No word of taking powers. Total liars.

      £Millions given to Labour by hypocrites Illegal wars starving and killing people. Banking and financial fraud. Wasting £Billions.

      How the Tories have the nerve to be posing at food banks for some cheap publicity. The stores should be ashamed for allowing it. They should be sent packing. Tescos financial embezzlers get away with it. Johnstone on the fiddle. Boris for PM, That went well. He would not have lasted a week. Cameron still at the trough of public money.

    182. skintybroko says:

      John McDonnell coming to Scotland with yet another VOW to appeal to the Scottish public – it will get short shrift from YES voters but those soft No’s and waverers will get wall to wall on how good this will be from the UK Media, in the event of a GE being called. This never ending spin, lies and bullshit needs cut off at source, we need independence sooner rather than later.

    183. Jim Morris says:

      1. We will be leaving on 29th March 2019 11 pm GMT.
      2. All this Deal / No Deal talk is about what happens on March 30th 2019.
      3. No Brexit will necessitate the passing of EU Finance Bill 2019 before April 1st 2019.
      Thanks to the House of Lords the passing of a Bill into Law can take all of 2 years sometimes.
      Even if the decision was made in Privy Council, with no democratic element at all, then staying in means the end of offshore banking, EBT’s, and tax authorities going after at least twenty years of tax avoidance.
      4. See No. 1.

    184. Les Wilson says:

      Regarding the EFTA option for Uk, I do not see how this would work for them, but more importantly for the existing members.

      With the population of the UK within it would cause real problems for members and put that block out of balance.
      The UK, with it’s inbred exceptionalism would try and be the boss and that would cause dissary and fallouts.I will not work, and the existing members know it.

      However, it is a good fit for Scotland on Indy. Alex Salmond has essentially said the same.I did so myself prior to 2014.
      After a couple of years in that group, we can assess the issue and the people can vote on whether to go for full membership or not.It could be used by Scotland as a friendly house until we get on our feet. England? another mess would follow if they got in.

    185. Nana says:

      Links

      The EU is taking more than half of Scotland’s
      https://twitter.com/scotgoveconomy/status/1070666782233554945

      As the parliamentary debate on #Brexit comes to a climax the #AlexSalmondShow looks at the legal and political minefields looming before the Prime Minister. Weighing up Theresa May’s prospects of political survival are key commentators, former SNP MP George Kerevan and Daily Mail columnist Peter Oborne, her doughtiest defender on Fleet Street.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwklbimJk28&feature=youtu.be

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/david-mundell-has-no-credibility-with-scottish-businesses-that-fear-the-economic-fallout-from-brexit/

      Universal credit ‘hits students harder’
      http://archive.is/xCUFy

    186. starlaw says:

      Message to Labour… What if we have another election and the Tories win. What then does Labour have to offer Scotland.

    187. Nana says:

      Whisky remains top UK export
      https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Article/2018/12/06/UK-food-and-drink-exports-rise-in-2018

      Brutal letter from the @CommonsPAC chair to the head of HMRC re Brexit border
      https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/public-accounts/Correspondence/2017-

      The British government has been accused of failing to protect the rights of British and EU citizens in the event of a no-deal Brexit, as Michel Barnierreiterated that he would not renegotiate the agreement currently on the table.
      http://archive.is/pnAlb

      We asked survivors of three genocides about the warning signs leading towards the brutality.
      One common theme stood out.
      watch
      https://twitter.com/rights_info/status/1070626403241078784

    188. Nana says:

      UK steel sector crippled by power costs as Brexit looms
      http://archive.is/nvGYR

      https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-reveals-how-hollow-notion-of-british-nation-is-1.3719841#.XAmRMEuTITM

      https://www.insider.co.uk/news/rbs-brexit-netherlands-no-deal-13697034

      Let there be no doubt it is totally & utterly immoral to threaten #Ireland with (anything but particularly) food shortages. Do these ignoramuses have no knowledge of history?

      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1070952560561922048

    189. Nana says:

      How US billionaires are fuelling the hard-right cause in Britain
      http://archive.is/sVthi

      https://www.cer.eu/publications/archive/policy-brief/2018/brexit-and-services-how-deep-can-uk-eu-relationship-go

      EXCLUSIVE: Ministers will have the power to overrule doctors’ prescriptions in case medicines run out after Brexit. Urgent government consultation launched on Tuesday, leaked to The Times
      https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1070936000841609217

    190. Hamish100 says:

      MacDonald the country to him is uk England.

      We dont exist in his unionist eyes and therefire can be ignored. He is a brexiter.

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      Feck me, I posted elsewhere that which is potentially a bad move, but luckily I was able to edit it out.

      Now is not the time for slips or stupidity like that 🙁

    192. Macart says:

      @Nana

      An entire weekends worth there Nana. 😀

    193. Capella says:

      @ Martin – small sub samples could skew results I agree. On the other hand…

      @ Dan Huil – you’re right – that is Banff Buchan, my mistake. So it will be the farming and fishing community who were once pro SNP but have now become so anti EU they will vote for Leave.

      Must be some heavy propaganda going into that area.

    194. Spikethedee says:

      Any polling been done on what would happen with a 3 option referendum on an STV basis???

    195. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      It’s encouraging that more than half Scotland’s international exports are to the EU, though shows our massive exposure to Brexit.

      But this from the actual figures for Scotland is something I find interesting:

      https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx

      “Exports: £29.6bn 6.2%
      Imports: £25.4bn 10.6%”

      Normally you’d look at the high increase in imports and thing it bad, but I can’t help feel it’s actually a sign of an increasingly healthy economy. You have to speculate to accumulate, spend money, to make money. We’re spending over 10% more than last year on imports!

      It might be a wacky theory all the same …

    196. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      Funny you should say that. I won’t be around tomorrow so I’m leaving plenty reading material for anyone who wants to have a wee read 🙂

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      The other theory of course would be that companies and even people are stocking up before Brexit, just in case.

      Which is also good as we’re doing it way more than the other three countries of the UK, and over 4 times as much as the UK as a hole 🙂

    198. Nana says:

      Morning yesindyref2

      It’s all ‘wacky theory’ to me 🙂

    199. Footsoldier says:

      Good news on new film studio in Edinburgh. Bad news on the fixation with everything in the capital.

      It’s a public funded body and the SNP must surely have influence but no, they want to follow the London model to the letter and build everything near or in Edinburgh which is starting to swallow up a lot of the Scottish budget.

      Let’s remind them de-centralisation is long overdue and some clear sky thinking.

    200. Dorothy Devine says:

      Maybe someone should tell Banff and Buchan they are about to lose their EU subsidy – or did Westminster hang on to that?

      Either way they are going to be poorer.

    201. yesindyref2 says:

      Jeez, I was just about to post something else.

      FFS yesindyref2, use the heid.

    202. manandboy says:

      Do you remember the ‘Black’ days? Black Friday, Black Monday, Black Wednesday? Each was a day of disaster. But now, there are so many Tory-created disasters queing up, there won’t be enough days in the week to give each disaster its own day.
      The future’s Black, the future’s Tory, the future’s Brexit.

      Scotland’s No voters believed the big black lie from Better Together, that only in the UK did we Scots have a bright future. How black was that lie from the Tory-Labour-LibDem Scotland – hating Alliance?

      Remember Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown, Danny Alexander, Willie Rennie, Joanne Lamont & Ruth Davidson telling us all those black lies. They should have called themselves ‘The Black Lies Party’ instead of Better Together. Even their name was a black lie.

      Scotland’s future will be black without Independence.

      Go on, No voters, switch to Yes and switch on a bright future for an independent Scotland

    203. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Ditto on the travels thing Nana. Doing the Santa thing in the West HIghlands with some family this weekend.

    204. manandboy says:

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/poll-suggests-most-northern-ireland-voters-disagree-with-dup-on-brexit-fc57mbl6b

      Northern Ireland voters appear at odds with the DUP over their future after Brexit, a poll for The Times suggests.

      The people of Ulster would rather have close links to the European Union even if the rest of the UK had an arms-length agreement.

      The DUP, the largest political party in Northern Ireland, has rejected Theresa May’s deal on the grounds that it could leave the province with a special status, creating a border down the Irish Sea.

      The party is threatening to stop propping up the government if the deal goes through.

      A LucidTalk poll for The Times reveals that 65 per cent of Northern Ireland voters would welcome a Brexit that keeps the province “closely tied to the EU, inside the single market…

      The Tory-UDA-DUP Party out of touch once again.

    205. Muscleguy says:

      6. The SNP in alliance with other parties in the aftermath of May’s deal being defeated propose a motion which this House should repeal Article 50. Because apart from anything else the British govt is in no fit state to negotiate a Brexit.

      The House passes it and May is forced by parliament, see the legal advice, to send the letter.

      It is then spun to the country as a PAUSE while the Tory party and Labour figure out what they actually want.

      What might happen? the Tories and Labour might split. The Labour Brexiters might flounce off and so might the High Tory Brexiters, though the latter might have to wait until their candidate loses the leadership election.

      Attitudes to Scotland in England worsen considerably and the new Tory PM is moved to not just grant us a Section 30 but force it on us and the UK gov would recommend we vote Yes.

      Shorn of Remain iScotland a new Article 50 letter is sent and rUK conducts simultaneous negotiations with the EU and iScotland. Sorry, I moved into fantasy land there. Brexit is put off while iScotland is got shot of and the future border issues both with iScotland and NI are sorted out.

      It is not beyond possible that ultra unionist Tories might force a reunification referendum on NI as well. That would certainly solve the situation and remove the Good Friday Agreement which would become null and void.

      It was a Tory govt who recently enquired of New Zealand whether they would like to take on Pitcairn after NZ pragmatically agreed to host the paedophile trials. NZ, in the throes of trying to persuade Niue to leave the fold and become independent said ‘no thanks’. But an Imperial Rock was offered to a foreign govt when it became embarrassing and inconvenient.

    206. jfngw says:

      Mundell it would seem has redrawn his red line for resigning, now positioned at when Tories lose GE or receiving a peerage. Now would we all stop questioning his integrity and backbone, he sees a man of honour in the mirror every morning when he shaves.

    207. jfngw says:

      Labour are promising to transfer £1bn of wealth and power to Scotland if they are elected, BBC Scotland promote on their morning show.

      SNP have a counter proposal, they will transfer all of Scotland’s wealth and power to Scotland, never to be reported by BBC.

    208. Legerwood says:

      Crikey Nana you have excelled yourself this morning. It’s going to take a week to get through them all.

    209. call me dave says:

      Aye! Big labour arrive in Glasgow to woo us intransigent Scots with promises of £m’s and lots of powers.
      Shurley we all know in Scotland they speak pish with a forked tongue. They must win darn Start to gain power.

      They’re flogging a dead horse trying to kill two birds with one stone. Etc which is none PC now.

      But they cannae tell us what they’re going to do if Theresa’s deal is voted dowñ on Brexit. GE is first and maybees something after that.

    210. Socrates MacSporran says:

      jfngw

      You are awful, but, I like you.

      he sees a man of honour in the mirror every morning when he shaves.

      That’s as good a description of the bearded David Mundell as I have seen.

    211. manandboy says:

      The electorate is bored, flummoxed, frustrated and confused. After two and a half years of Brexit and The Tories, we are weary of it all, and ready to capitulate, which is exactly where May wants us to be. Wearing down the voters – classic Vladizlav Surkov strategy. Russia rules.

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      I didn’t get it. “When he shaves”. Now I do 🙂

    213. Nana says:

      Jolyon Maugham writes
      http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/12/07/monday-s-article-50-case-will-change-the-stakes-in-the-brexi

      Video below is quite good other than Britain is of course England!

      The Problem With The Parliament
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2_EvT-FtmM

      https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/in-the-house-of-commons-brexit-has-no-winners-only-losers/

      Morning Legerwood

      Just be thankful I’ve not posted the foreign press articles as well 🙂

      Have a good weekend.

    214. Karmanaut says:

      There’s very little good analysis of this whole brexit fiasco out there. This is some of the best.

      So, today Labour are once again promising to renegotiate the Brexit deal, for a “jobs first Brexit” that keeps all the advantages of the single market, including frictionless trade, while simulataneously being outside the single market, ending free movement, and allowing the UK to have a say in all future EU trade deals.

      I think my issue with this isn’t so much that these lies are so easy to expose, but that they expect anyone to believe them.

      And disgraced former minister Priti Patel is talking about witholding food from Irish people as leverage in a trade deal. Where do you even start with that? Presumably the idea is to say something so outrageously hostile and offensive to Ireland that a No Deal situation becomes even more likely?

    215. Kenno says:

      Treeza has sent her Ministers around “the Country” to try and persuade us to accept her deal.

      I wonder who she has sent to the Scottish region of her “Country”?

      And more importantly would we give a shit who they sent?

    216. K1 says:

      So we are at the stage of no deal scaremongering propaganda on steroids so May can force her backbenchers and dup to vote through her deal?

      These dangerous psychopathic fuckers are a sight to behold. Oh and McDonnel can go fuck himself.

    217. Fergus Green says:

      @Call Me Dave 10.26

      Modern non-violent version is ‘feed 2 birds with one seed’

    218. TheBuchanLoony says:

      I see Theresa has sent out her 30 horsemen of the apocalypse all over the UK to change our minds on her deal. I wonder who the brave/poor soul is who is being sent to Scotland!

    219. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian McCubbin says: 7 December, 2018 at 7:48 am:

      ” … Personally I would not be interested in voting in it. Our issue is just to leave UK union now.
      I do not think a people’s vote wl happen. If it did May won’t listen.
      Labour are shambolic and don’t even seem interested anyway.”

      You are correct, they are not interested and they will not listen.

      I just watched a YouTube video clip that featured a tv interview with Matt Hancock, English/Westminster Health Secretary.

      I had to laugh out loud at how it was billed by the TV channel – “Health Secretary says Brexit referendum will be divisive”

      Of course the referendum will be. “Divisive”. That’s the function of all referendums. They ask a question to find out which side of the subject is the majority.

      Yet these bloody idiots, chosen by Theresa May, trot out these meaningless stock phrases like a brainless parrot. Asif being divisive was a bad thing and so there shouldn’t be a referendum to find out what the voters think.

      Best just to leave it to the brainless parrots to follow whatever their leader thinks.

      These people are unreal.

    220. mike cassidy says:

      Nana

      Notso Priti Patel

      A Tory Prime Minister in waiting!

      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1070952560561922048

    221. misteralz says:

      No, Fergus Green, it’s feed two birds with one scone.

    222. galamcennalath says:

      An OT logistics thought.

      If there is a no deal Brexshit the customs at the Channel ports will be gummed up with trucks needing processed. There will be massive tailbacks. Through traffic will be a faction of current levels.

      What are all these big cross Channel ferries going to be doing? With low throughput they won’t be running near as often, nor will so many be needed.

      Some could be used for additional direct Continent to Ireland journeys. That seems highly likely.

      Ro-Ro ships need special docking facilities. Are there underused facilities elsewhere in the UK? Scotland?

    223. misteralz says:

      Yeah. Dundee, Rosyth, Grangemouth, Aberdeen can all take roro traffic. Would be good to see Smyril Line reopen some of their Scandinavian services, too…

    224. gus1940 says:

      Ross Thomson – Fruitcake or Loony?

    225. Abulhaq says:

      The EU no longer gives a stuff about England and her posturing over Brexit: you have your offer May and that’s the best it gets. The crises in France and Italy, the revanchist, Franquist revival in Spain and the possibility of political instability in Germany are way more important. The EU itself is under potential threat of disintegration.
      Not a good scenario for Scotland.

    226. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The EU itself is under potential threat of disintegration.
      Not a good scenario for Scotland.”

      Concern troll alert.

    227. gus1940 says:

      Many people have suggested that The SNP embarks on a campaign of civil disobedience both at The HoC and elsewhere.

      The SNP mass walkout from the HoC was very effective receiving massive media coverage and a surge in SNP party membership.

      While a repeat would be a good idea it would not have such a great effect.

      However, it has been suggested that the SNP tears up a copy of the Treaty Of Union in the chamber.

      This is an excellent idea and would attract suitable media attention.

      Can I suggest the following:-

      Ian Blackford gets hold of or creates a facsimile of said treaty, produces it at an appropriate time, marches up the chamber followed by his members, tears up the treaty and scatters it over the MACE accompanied by a red faced yelling Bercow and incandescent hysterical Britnat members before exiting the chamber.

      I suppose it would be overdoing things and tending to criminal as opposed to civil disobedience if he set fire to the torn up remnants of the treaty.

    228. Dr Jim says:

      Labour always promises to give Scotland loads of money when they’re not in power if only Scotland will vote for them

      Two words: *Smith Commission*

      I have another two words (…….)

    229. call me dave says:

      Was it Salmond? :

      “the trouble with labour is they say something and then they say another something” Maybe others will know it better. 🙁

      PS:
      Irish food shortages threatened by WM… that should go down well eh!

    230. Abulhaq says:

      @ProudCybernat
      Bury that troll obsessed head of yours in the sand, if you must, but outside in the real world the scenario looks very turbulent indeed. I assume you do acquaint yourself with matters beyond your kailyard?
      Scotland is part of that gathering potential storm and Scots are currently marginalised and defenceless. We need smart leadership as never before.

    231. hackalumpoff says:

      OT
      THE UK Government will not allow Holyrood ministers to pay £65 settled status fees for European citizens who are working in Scotland’s public services, Nicola Sturgeon has said.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17283505.uk-blocks-scottish-support-for-eu-citizens-settled-status-fees/

    232. Macart says:

      Huh! So Mr McDonnell is sharing his pearls of wossiname in Scotland is he? Promising all sorts of stuff Labour could have delivered at ANY time (let’s be generous) during their previous stint in office.

      They could have done a lot of things they’re promising to do today, but they didn’t and still won’t. It’s what they are and this is no longer their playground for placeholder MPs. Mr McDonnell knows the road back across the border. We’re done with Labour and their empty promises. We also have a better offer on the table.

      We give ourselves ALL of OUR powers, control over OUR economy, our resources, OUR politics, OUR tax and spend to meet OUR needs, OUR choices and OUR futures.

      It’s unlikely (especially given Labour’s track record on ‘VOWS’ and delivery) that Mr McDonnell’s Labour can match that offer.

    233. Dr Jim says:

      “The fact of the matter is” “Let me be clear” “What we’ve said is* “Project fear”

      There will be rioting on the streets the Police might have to be armed the army will have to be deployed if the *will* of the *British* people isn’t upheld and this vote is reversed to staying in the EU

      Except that can’t be right because none of that happened from remainers when the vote was to leave

      So are the government saying that the *Leavers* in *Britain* are all very violent nasty people

      Can you imagine the headlines and outrage in the papers and every five minutes on TV if the Scottish government said the same thing to Scotland *If we don’t get Independence there will be rioting on the streets*

      It just shows you what the media allow the Westmister government to get away with saying without challenge
      they’re treated like the Gods of Egypt

    234. Effijy says:

      When Tories, Red or Blue suggest that the Brexit Vote was done on a UK wide basis because Scotland Voted to stay in the Union.

      We must enforce the fact that more than 10% of Scots voted to stay in a United Kingdom as it was informed by Westminster that it was the only way that they could retain their cherished EU Membership.

      Westminster also broke the Purda, they lied about £3 Billion investment on our wind and wave technologies, a £1 Billion investment on a Peterhead Carbon Capture Plant, 13 new ships for the Clyde, extensive new powers to make Holyrood the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

      As the last one panned out Holyrood is so powerful that Westminster advise they are taking 24 devolved powers back from us and we don’t get to even discuss it with them.

      Indy Ref 1 is null and void as the result was completely corrupt
      and deceitful.

      A confidence trickster would be imprisoned for less.

    235. frogesque says:

      @ Kenno: 11.09

      Let it be Fluffy, please, please let it be Fluffy!

    236. Jeff says:

      Breeks’ post at 4.16pm is excellent. Copy and paste to your local rag? If Breeks doesn’t mind of course?

    237. geeo says:

      So, labour promising £70BILLION spent in Scotland in 2 terms !!

      Well, I can exclusively reveal that I, the geeo-party, is offering Scotland £5TRILLION /week for Scotland and will gold plate every Scottish oil drum, so they look cool when we sell it.

      Oh aye, all pupil teacher ratio’s will be 1:1 and the same with Doctor to patient ratio’s.

      Lets face it, apart from the fact that my geeo-party vision has more chance of success than the labour promises of £70bn in 2 terms, it just shows how easy it is to promise unicorns and fairy tales, and wrap it up as a labour party manifesto.

      …….

      In other news, ukip slimeball, David Coburn has quit ukip over the hiring of that other cretinous slimeball, Stephen Yaxley Lennon (Tommy Robinson).

      Which means that, officially, David Coburn has shown more personal integrity than Snackbeard Mundell !!

      Now THAT is humiliating.

    238. Proud Cybernat says:

      Concern troll – nope. Not biting.

    239. Breeks says:

      I like it that Scotland can at least talk about a fast response to trade congestion at Dover, before we get ahead of ourselves, there is the little of matter of agreeing a Trade mechanism that allows Scotland to interact with Europe in a way that is dissimilar to Dover, or whatever happens at Dover happens here too.

      The delays at Dover will not be about the backed up lorries, but the “hostile” customs arrangement they are trying to filter so many lorries through. The miles of backed up lorries will be consequential disruption. The “real” problem will be the bottleneck at Customs.

      Our Scottish ports won’t be much use to us UNLESS we are either still an EU Member state or have some agreed Customs arrangement to allow Scottish/EU trade to pass unhindered. Only when the Customs arrangement is agreed and in place will trade begin to flow efficiently.

      IF Brexit turns into a No Deal Brexit, there is no Transition period. The status quo will not rumble on while the “t’s” are crossed and “i’s” are dotted. The trade will cease.

      To switch trade to a Scottish port will require a Scottish / EU bargain struck, and if that agreement isn’t staying in the EU, it will need to be a rather hurried last minute Scottish Trade Agreement, which will be predicated by an equally hurried “International Personality” being established for the Scottish Government to negotiate and enter into Sovereign agreements with other countries. These are not “options”. These are essential requirements.

      We really do need to get the finger out and get this issue of Constitutional Sovereignty addressed as quickly as possible, or Scotland will leave itself with too much to do in too short a time to do it. We are dangerously close to the cut off.

      We have just 112 days to Brexit. Postpone Christmas if you must, but don’t delay our escape from Brexit. There isn’t time.

      Don’t forget, Europe will be EXTREMELY reluctant to revisit the preambles Michel Barnier finally got the slippery UK to sign up to, and Scotland’s emergence from this dog’s breakfast might already be downgraded in the mind of the EU as “domestic internal strife” in the departing UK. We can assume nothing!

      If we want to guarantee a different fate for Scottish Interests to that of Westminster’s England, then it’s is down to us and our Holyrood Government to exploit the sovereign beachhead which the European Court of Justice has given us, and GET SCOTLAND RECOGNISED AS A SOVEREIGN INTERLOCUTOR.

      If we fail to split Brexit into distinct ScotExit and EngExit conditions, then we are bound to whatever fate and trajectory the United Kingdom is embarked upon, and that is not good.

      There is no time for a ScotRef2. There is no time for EuroRef2. It is possible (IF Westminster can be persuaded to do it), that more time can be bought if Article 50 is withdrawn, but having more time is not going alter Scotland’s forlorn capacity to act as a sovereign Nation. WE NEED A CHANGE OF STATUS.

      Securing our distinct International Personality is now VITAL to Scotland’s Interests. Our LACK of International Personality is the reason Scotland was excluded from the Brexit Negotiations. We simply CANNOT afford to remain crippled and incapable of defending our interests in the manner which up until now we have been.

      Please Nicola, please Joanna Cherry, please use the sovereign aspects of the ECJ’s ruling as the fissure into which we wedge our mighty pry-bar and break apart this corrupt illusion of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty.

    240. Cubby says:

      Effijy@12.51pm

      I agree with your post but the question now has to be if there is an indyref2 how do we prevent the same sort of thing happening again.

    241. Tom Busza says:

      @ Fergus Green at 11.14 a.m.

      According to PETA spokesidiot on radio this morning it should be “feed 2 birds with 1 scone” !!

    242. geeo says:

      If anyone thinks Scotland is currently defenceless, they have an almighty shock coming very soon.

      As for marginalised…well, I am sure thats what WM want folk to believe, but again, those thinking that also have a major shock coming to them.

      The Continuity Bill is the first instance of a controlled Earthquake.

      Great political planning has ensured that the Scotsgov have a constitutional earthquake, primed and ready to deploy at a time of maximum damage to a Union treaty already torpedoed below the waterline by brexit and the behaviour of WM towards Scotland.

      You know what defenceless and marginalised is ?

      The WM ran entity, post crash and burn brexit, with no transition period nor any trade deals in place, and post Scottish Independence, when we take a couple of hundred BILLION of resources with us.

      You will be getting 10 zimbabwean dollars to the pound before long…!!

      Meanwhile, Scotland would grow her economy hand over fist, and our biggest problem would be controlling that growth !!

      Scotland is in the strongest position we have been in for quite some time.

      We have more options than in 2014 and those options are game changers should WM try to cheat indy from us again.

    243. Frank Gillougley says:

      Amid this unravelling ongoing catastrophe, I daresay everyone has noticed the truly cynical Orwellian ongoing and persistent CONFLATION of the wilfull words by the Tories of, ‘this country’, or ‘this nation’, or ‘this island’ all used in reference to namely, England?

      Sad, I know, but I find myself often shouting at the telly, ‘Whose country are you talking about? Whose nation are you talking about? Whose island are you talking about?’
      Am I alone in this, or am I deluded?

      Yours outraged, Tunbridge Wells, NOT.

    244. manandboy says:

      Congratulations to Jo Maugham, and the Scottish Six. Highest praise is their due for all their amazing efforts.

      I am still left with the feeling that the Tories have something in mind that they wish to do after March 29 which is dependent on remaining in government and on leaving the EU. Hence their disinterest in any democratic process since the EU referendum.

      I suspect what they have in mind, includes taking measures to ensure, as far as possible, that the Tories will be in government for the foreseeable future, and, that Scotland is politically crippled to prevent any further pursuit of Independence, and thereby, to remove the threat to The Establishment of losing Scotland’s wealth.

    245. Cubby says:

      The Maybot has discovered a new strategy for remaining Prime Minister – make such an absolute mess of everything that no one in the Conservative party wants to replace her.

    246. Valerie says:

      If you aren’t shitting it over No Deal, you haven’t been paying attention.

      More No Deal prep papers to be released today. Now advising 6 week disruption warning more like 6 months.

      Matt Hancock said his department has BOUGHT refrigeration units!!!!!

      A gov’t spending this amount of energy and money, approx £100million at experts rough guess are pretty serious.

      Dover capacity looks to be at 13%!!! They are planning what are priority loads – food or car parts.

      I can hardly believe what I’m reading.

    247. wull2 says:

      Dear yesindyref2, I remember about 30 tears ago when emails just came out, I was told by a chap, a person used to write a reply, read it then post it. Now people just type a reply and its off, sometimes before they even read it themselves, Its just the times we live in.

    248. jfngw says:

      Surely if there are shortages of medicines in the near future these should firstly go to remain voters, after all the leavers wanted this outcome so they should own it. I bet they won’t, they will be first at the counter claiming their exceptionalism.

    249. Tom Busza says:

      OT

      A nice wee piece about Irish border

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-46459904

    250. Referendum1707 says:

      Cubby 1.15

      “So, in summary, even a crap programme like QT helps the independence cause even though that is not its intention.”

      I get where you’re coming from with that, seems like a logical assumption to make, however there’s no actual hard evidence, that I’m aware of anyway, to back that assumption up.

    251. manandboy says:

      Let’s be clear about Indy2014.

      It was NOT THE END of the Independence movement. It was merely a red traffic light on the road to Independence. Red changed to green the day after Indy2014, and the movement continued on its journey, to arrive at the point where we are today, the Brexit roundabout, and another opportunity to gain Independence for Scotland.

      Make no mistake, there is no end to this road for the Independence movement except Independence itself. Even then, the movement will simply become part of the workforce to BUILD the new independent Scotland.

      So forget what the Tories or Labour say about Independence for Scotland. They are only ever interested in Scotland’s money, because that’s what keeps the Westminster Gravy Train on the tracks and The Establishment in its historical position of privileged power and wealth.

      Be sure about the ‘Brexit roundabout’. This is the place where we take the exit road to Independence.

    252. call me dave says:

      @Frank Gillougley

      Join the queue but I’ve got the granddaughter noticing it as well so we’re both at it now. Her mother’s not a happy bunny. 🙂

      Even this ‘Realm’ I heard recently Jeeesh!

      PS:
      God bless Volvo for the easiest bulb headlight thingy change ever, spent 5 mins doing both the sides in the cold.
      Nae tools required and Nae bother.

      Mind you that computer thing panel insists on telling you things you’d rather not know. 🙂

    253. geeo says:

      Indy hopes hit by oil price disaster….!!!

      (From RT breaking news)

      “The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) reached a new deal to curb global crude output. Oil prices surged over 5 percent on the news.

      OPEC member-countries and other oil producing countries have agreed to cut crude output by 1.2 million barrels per day, a spokesman said as quoted by Bloomberg.

      DETAILS TO FOLLOW

      ……

      Dammit…we were doing well for a while as well..then this calamity strikes, hopefully WM will bail us out and look after this extra income for us huh ?

      Seriously though, this just shows that controlling oil revenues as an indy country is so obviously better than the farce we endure now.

      Now, a 5% price increase basically means nothing to Scotlands finances.

      If indy however, that 5% can be banked for a rainy day fund (where DO you get the money for an oil fund again?) or used as additional infrastructure spending or extra investment into Schools or Health services.

    254. Kenno says:

      Does it matter to Scotland if Boris Johnson is the next Prime Minister?

      Does it matter to Scotland if Jeremy Corbyn is the next Prime Minister?

      Honest answer, No, not a jot!!!

    255. manandboy says:

      Tom Busza says:

      I did enjoy reading ‘the Irish border’, Tom, in spite of it being featured on BBC, which I’m allergic to, through past contact which resulted in brain damage. A long time ago, I picked up an infected idea which screwed my mind up no end.

      I’m amazed at how many people in Scotland use the BBC as it contains all kinds of thought viruses which carry the disease known as ‘I’m British’. There ought to be a law against the BBC in Scotland. It has caused a lot of ill health, often lasting a lifetime.

      Never mind, someday soon it will be no more.

    256. Daisy Walker says:

      ‘The FTSE 100 Index is down 2.49% today (6/12/18) at 6,749.68 following sell-offs in the energy and mining sectors, as well as reservations about the state of international banking. The FTSE (Financial Times Stock Exchange) opened at 6,840 and fell steadily all morning, before hitting a low of 2.55% and showing some signs of resistance to further selling.

      The last time that the FTSE 100 reached this level was early December 2016, but as veteran economist David Buik points out on Twitter, the losses mean that the FTSE has not grown in nearly two decades.’

      I thought the above was interesting. Last week there were reports that Terrible May might try and crash the £ before the meaningful vote, in order to scare her MP’s into voting for her Deal.

      Today there are reports the 1922 Committee are asking her to cancel the meaningful vote – which I would suggest – indicates they’ve not been able to bully enough MP’s round to their way of thinking AND with the Cancel Brexit option likely to be on the ballot, they’re shit scared Remain will win.

      Desperate stuff from another report that they might just filibuster the debate so that Cancel cannot be an option.

      Terrible May’s deal managed a miracle in that the EU allows for mainland UK to trade (with conditions) but not under European Court of Justice jurisdiction. Thereby keeping the tax dodgers away from the new EU tax laws.

      No Deal achieves the same, but fails to have the appearance of the Government actually making any effort.

      No Deal is actually better for the Govt, in that it treats all parts of the UK and NI equally shit, and therefore does not open up the can of worms that are the terms of the Treaty of Union.

      From a Scottish Indy perspective No Deal provides less legal opportunity for our MP’s and ScotGov to ‘fight’ back.

      The Cancel button, has put the cat amongst the English MP pigeons, they now have about 50% of their electorate breathing down their necks, saying, see, there is another option.

      And the Supreme Court ruling on Scotland’s Continuity Bill – that Scotland should continue to implement all EU legislation from the moment of exit, across all the devolved powers.

      If ScotGov wins this, then in effect WM Gov has no powers to negotiate with the EU about Scotland’s Fishing, Agriculture, etc. A really big loss for them, and one which null and voids TM’s current effort. In practice it would mean ScotGov would have to be properly consulted and represented in these matters – should WM continue to be the single point of negotiating with EU, or more practically, Scotland goes its own way and negotiates separately.

      If ScotGov loses, then the grounds for the loss will have to be chosen very, very carefully. If there is the slightest chance they could be legally interpreted to a different outcome, then an appeal to the ECJ would be justified. As much as they are down in England, the judges are on an international stage, their reasoning will be scrutinised at the most knowledgable, international, levels (by their peers) – if their summing up is in any way seen to be lazy or biased, that is a vey public drubbing for them. Judges don’t like that.

      Right just now, the ignorance of the English electorate, is the Brexit movers and shakers biggest tool.

      It is good to see England wake up – 3blokes in a pub (really good bits in the middle when they talk of medicines and the tax laws) – is very good (Thanks Nana) it all just feels too little, too late, but you never know.

      Best wishes to all.

    257. yesindyref2 says:

      An interesting letter in The National claiming that the ECJ AG is on shaky ground. The reply is too long to post here, so it’s the letter and the reply (2nd comment).

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17283706.european-court-of-justice-could-yet-reject-advocate-generals-opinion/

      Wouldn’t surprise me if such an opinion is expressed, so worth looking at and checking out maybe 🙂

    258. Golfnut says:

      @ geeo
      Yep lots of smoke and mirrors being deployed by Westminster. Treating our MP;s, FM, Parliament as second class is all part of making the people believe they are powerless. As with most things emanating from Westminster, the exact opposite is true, otherwise they wouldn’t be trying so hard. 2014 rocked Westminster, 2015 floored them.
      I remember George Robertson in America before the Indy vote, briefing American business men on the impact of Scotland dissolving the Union. That was when he claimed that an independent Scotland would cause galactic consequences, the sky would fall in and I think alien invasion, though that last one might have been the defence minister.
      His prediction was probably Georges closest brush the truth for a long time, but not in the sense that it was reported.
      Scotland dissolving the union creates real problems for the establishment, their connections to the commonwealth, shady deals with Corporations, tax havens and treaties.
      So your right, Scotland has real power, not the bomb, the rifle or bullet, they aren’t afraid of those. They fear the rule of law, they fear a sovereign people prepared to use it and the Crown they control.

    259. Daisy Walker says:

      re Killing 2 birds with one stone.

      New PC version – feeding 2 birds with one seed = equals slowly starving 2 birds to death while trying to look good at the same time.

      Feeding 2 birds with one scone – that one works though. Trust the Scots to solve it;)

    260. yesindyref2 says:

      @wull2
      Yes, it’s why I don’t do twitter – far too hasty!

    261. Dr Jim says:

      Everybody needs to calm down a bit, once England’s made its decision on what’s going to happen they’ll tell us how life’s going to be for us and what we are to do

      What’s wrong with that, it’s the way it’s always been I really don’t know why there’s such a fuss about waiting to be told things I mean we do it with our chidren, what’s the difference

      I mean we got a vote and they love us, they said so and that’s important, they said that too, so come on Scotland stop complaining all the time and do as you’re told

    262. yesindyref2 says:

      Welcome our Imperial Masters!

    263. starlaw says:

      Dr Jim 2:52
      Are we there yet ?…

    264. Dr Jim says:

      @starlaw

      I have sharp things Grrrrrrr

    265. Tom Busza says:

      @ manandboy

      Agreed.

      I look at BBC mainly for what it’s editorial staff is up to, especially their “Have Your Say” which only ever seem to appear if ever Scottish politics or FM is invlolved and to see what the xenophobic anti-Scottish anti-SNP posters are up to. Occasionally I try to keep them straight with some facts, but, as usual, they like to ignore them sticking to their own warped sense of the truth.

      There’s one character there (with multiple IDs) who just copies and pastes the same guff over and over again without supplying a linked source. Took me over 2 weeks to get him to give a hint of the source, and checking it all out it was obvious that he was (and still is) basing his assertions on an old Daily Record headline which in itself was a misinterpretation of the original poll figures.

      Further, I would take issue with your analogy to a “Brexit roundabout” in your earlier post. It’s been my experience over the years when I was working (driving about 1000 miles per week) that there are many Scots who do not know how to behave when they encounter a roundabout on the road. (It’s just as bad being a pedestrian near a roundabout, now analogy I am retired)They have no idea about correct signalling, and their lane discipline is atrocious. If their road sense in such a situation is a reflection of their votimng behaviour then all I can say is God help us and our cause.

    266. Terence callachan says:

      Another door closes on Englands Westminster government
      There will be no joining EFTA
      Norway has said that they will not let U.K. Join EFTA
      they said UK would probably reject a lot of EU laws and regulations and currently all the members of EFTA are usually happy to accept laws and regulations that are issued by the EU
      if one EFTA member objects to a new member you cannot join so that’s that for UK, forget about joining EFTA.
      Norway also said they have been telling UK this for 18 months so they are puzzled why UK keep saying they are considering joining EFTA.
      Theresa May the brexiter who pretends she is a remainer but leads the Brexit campaign for the UK government is in my opinion happy for a crash out Brexit to happen but I’m pretty certain there are enough in Westminster who will vote against a crash out Brexit.
      DUP will support Theresa May even if they vote against her Brexit deal but if her Brexit deal is rejected by Westminster she will be a gonner and a replacement Tory will be sought, it won’t be Cameron for sure but could any one of the rest, whoever it is will be similar to Theresa May.
      I don’t think a general election will come about now it’s too close to Brexit exit.

    267. Daisy Walker says:

      From Laura Keunsburg’s twitter
      1. No 10 says vote still taking place on Tuesday – but cabinet not so sure – senior minister says they have been saying ’til blue in the face’, that ‘only political common sense is to delay’ – ‘we need to find a solution and we can’t find one by Tuesday’
      4:25 AM – 7 Dec 2018′

      Cancelling or amending the time/date of the meaningful vote will require a vote in the HoC’s.

      Last week Terrible May’s deal and likely defeat in HoC was being planned for (by 1922 committee) – and a defeat by less than 100 votes was something they could manage for a possible victory on a second attempt.

      Her deal is not any better since then, however, the big change is the chance to Cancel Brexit.

      It really has put the wind up them.

    268. manandboy says:

      Cheers for that, Tom.

    269. geeo says:

      Daisey Walker 2.16pm.

      You said this (from otherwise good post, not having a go at you, i promise)
      …..

      No Deal is actually better for the Govt, in that it treats all parts of the UK and NI equally shit, and therefore does not open up the can of worms that are the terms of the Treaty of Union.

      From a Scottish Indy perspective No Deal provides less legal opportunity for our MP’s and ScotGov to ‘fight’ back.
      ……….

      I completely disagree with this bit, as dragging Scots out the EU via No Deal is illegal Subjugation of the Expressed Will (remain) of the legally Sovereign Scots People.

      That Sovereign Will is protected by the Treaties of Union itself and the Claim of Right was only just recently re-affirmed by the Uk parliament as well.

      That is a legal slam dunk.

    270. Terence callachan says:

      To the rock …
      Don’t be put off by others, continue to air your views, having one theme in a political discussion never succeeds
      I for one like to see what those who think differently to me ,believe , I like people who disagree with my views to say why they disagree with them and what their alternative views are.
      It’s the the only way you increase participation.

    271. Mr McDonnell from the Labour party said while visiting Scotland

      At the same time, the SNP at Holyrood has simply passed on Tory austerity to communities, by bullying councils into making cuts and running down crucial areas like further education, as well as underfunding Scotland’s NHS.

      Really ? I thought the SNP were doing a brave job intentionally providing better services than darn sarf.

      Hows the NHS doing in Wales under Labour?

      The UN report into Britnat imposed poverty imposed by the Tories fully supported by Labour said the Scottish government were making huge strides to alleviate the cruelty from Westminster.

      When Labour are in power he will VOW to give Scotland money lots of power and ….. things.

      We have heard it before, what a complete rrrrrss.

    272. Bobp says:

      Terence callachan.3.34pm The people who disagree with your views have got their heads firmly buried in the sand.

    273. yesindyref2 says:

      Won’t be long before Moe is on shift.

    274. frogesque says:

      @ Terrance Callaghan: 3.34

      Problem is, there is only one point of view, he’s said it many times and it’s now well beyond boring.

      I feel there is no point in engaging and I just scroll on by. I’m fairly sure most others do as well.

    275. ScottieDog says:

      Me: “I just want scotland to get the hell out of the uk dad.”

      Tory voting unionist dad: “aye that’s a good point son”

      🙂

    276. Daisy Walker says:

      Hello Geeo

      ‘From a Scottish Indy perspective No Deal provides LESS legal opportunity for our MP’s and ScotGov to ‘fight’ back.’

      I like your thinking, and you may be right.

      My thinking was, they’ve been subjugating the sovereign will of the Scottish People for a long time now, although never so democratically blatant as the Brexit vote, at a time when we have a Devolved Parliament to represent our views.

      How and ever, TM’s terrible deal – actively treats the People of NI to different trading deals and rights, and is a clear, unambiguous breach of the terms of TofU. Both legal opportunities exist, and therefore can and should be used in TM’s deal. I suspect the second one is a more powerful legal argument.

      No Deal allows for only the one legal fight, not both.

      Kind regards

    277. Cubby says:

      Terence Callachan@3.34pm

      I disagree with your comment. Hope this makes you happy. Rockshit is a boring Britnat who just repeats the same crap time after time. Why would you encourage a Britnat to post a lot of boring repetitive crap. He stinks the place out with his crap. Walk on by.

    278. call me dave says:

      Hark the Herald.

      UK Government ‘block’ Holyrood paying settled status fees for EU citizens in Scotland’s public services

      https://archive.is/irJfF

    279. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit is an English disease, simples. British nationalism requires that non-English oppinion is irrelevant. This is how rascsim and colonialism work. These are inherant characteristics of the British psyche.

      All that mighty heart: Culture, Brexit, and the soft power of London
      https://www.britishcouncil.org/organisation/policy-insight-research/insight/all-that-mighty-heart

    280. ronnie anderson says:

      Terence Callaghan We dont give succour to Trolls on Wings , have you no respect for the Wingers & this site .

    281. geeo says:

      @Daisey Walker.

      We are actually spoiled for choice with the legalities.

      Deal = Dragged out against our will, compounded by an ACTUAL region of the Uk (N.I.) being treated differently than an ACTUAL signatory to the Treaty of Union. (SCOTLAND).

      No Deal = Dragged out the EU against the expressed will of the legally Sovereign Scots People.

      Then we have the illegal subjugation of SCOTS LAW should the UKSC make a political ruling on Thursday rather than a legitimate legal ruling which respects Scots Law and the Treaty of Union AND the Devolution (Scotland) Act.

      If, when Scotland says we are having an indyref, and TELLS treeza it will be by S.30 on OUR terms, she tries to delay, deny or obfuscate, then, thanks to great work by the Scotsgov, we have very powerful options available to us.

      Not even mentioned the ECJ ruling implications re:sovereignty of Scots People or the recent affirmation of Scots claim of rights.

      Its not Scotland who should be worried in all this.

    282. Proud Cybernat says:

      WM slowly waking up to the reality of the Treaty of Union and that Scotland DOES, in fact, have legal rights.

      For too long those legal rights were suppressed by the red, blue & orange Tories Scotland sent there. Never once in 311 years did those so-called ‘Scottish representatives’ assert our rights in terms of the ToU and allowed WM to trample, unfettered, all over it.

      Only now – 311 years later – has Scotland finally begun to assert its legal rights in terms of the ToU. That WM has for so long been allowed to ignore and forget that such a document even existed brought them to fall into the false delusion that WM reigned supreme and that Scots would bloody well do as they say – and like it.

      With the SNP now waking them to the reality of what the UK actually and the implications of the ToU, it must come as an absolute shock to these people who only ever viewed the world through supreme WM goggles. Seriously – Scotland suddenly flexing its legal muscles must be a complete shock and eye-opener to many of them and they just don’t know how to deal with this ‘new’ (true) reality.

      How bloody dare we.

      Anyone any popcorn left – I’ve ran oot and so has the shops.

    283. geeo

      Westminster is worried they are not totally stupid, stupid, but not totally.

      They are quite aware that the message regarding the urgent need for independence is slowly getting through to Scottish people.

      They could never afford to lose us but now with the Brexit disaster when Scotland finally wakes up and becomes a normal country there will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth in England.

    284. Bill Hume says:

      2018 has been a good year to be alive in the UK (except for viewers in England, Wales and N. Ireland).

    285. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 7 December, 2018 at 9:05 am:

      ” … You have to speculate to accumulate, spend money, to make money. We’re spending over 10% more than last year on imports!
      It might be a wacky theory all the same … “

      Indeed but … In the notes at the bottom is a cryptic clue that those statistics are utter crap.

      It states, “UK figures include those that cannot be identified to any particular region”, (a.k.a. extra-regio territories a.k.a Scottish territorial waters that provide up to 98% of the UK’s gas & oil revenues.

      There’s their real idiotic statistics right out the window.

    286. Meg merrilees says:

      Coburn has resigned from UKIP because it has been taken over by English Nationalism!!! Isn’t that why it was formed?

      Poor man, about to lose his job because of Brexit – did he really vote for that?

    287. Proud Cybernat says:

      After Scotland votes to restore its independent status I can see a lot of anger towards WM and that anger will come when we have a peek at our first year’s set of Indy Scotland accounts and realise just how much WM has been fleecing all these years. Some may even feel a sense of shame that their fear of change allowed the fleecing to continue beyond 2014.

    288. wull2 says:

      Waiting on Monday coming is like waiting on Santa to come.

    289. Meg merrilees says:

      Yesindyref2@2.17pm

      The person stating the view that the ECJ could return a ruling that the UK is not able to revoke Art.50 thinks it all hinges on this:

      sections of that treaty on which he relies extend the right of unilateral revocation only to cases where one party asserts a right to revoke because they have been disadvantaged by something for which they are not to blame. In the absence of such an event, there is no unilateral right to revoke. It is not built-in, so to speak.

      Surely T May and co. ( hypothetically) or WM parliament could argue that the agreed Deal is disadvantageous to the UK, particularly the Backstop on which Europe insists . So we might be home and dry …

      It would most certainly apply to Scotland trying to revoke Article 50 if they were to consider us as a separate case ( unlikely) as leaving the EU is something for which we take no blame.

      However, doesn’t the ruling say something about Art. 50 can only be revoked until such time as the Withdrawal Bill has been voted on – do they mean agreed!

      I’m not counting my chickens yet.

    290. Meg merrilees says:

      wull2

      two sleeps till Monday and then we do it all again for Santa a fortnight later! tee hee

    291. cctxt says:

      Nana says:

      3Blokes In A Pub… Go To Manchester (Ep 21)

      Has anyone noticed how studiously any mention of Scotland is avoided by these guys?

      Apart that is, from laughing together about how Scotland blames everything on the English ! see at 9m.45s

      FFS …….

    292. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Indeed, and any such set of figures has to be taken with caution. So, take what we can from them on the one level, but stay suspicious of the whole thing.

      GERS for instance is useful, but it does have a fair few fatal flaws 🙂

    293. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      From my reading it doesn’t matter. Article 68, the revocation refers to A65 and A67, and what the letter writer is talking about is A65 – the “disadvantaged” one. But A67 paragraph 2 applies anyway:

      ———-
      “2. Any act declaring invalid, terminating, withdrawing from or suspending the operation of a treaty pursuant to the provisions of the treaty [or of paragraphs 2 or 3 of article 65] shall be carried out through an instrument communicated to the other parties. If the instrument is not signed by the Head of State, Head of Government or Minister for Foreign Affairs, the representative of the State communicating it may be called upon to produce full powers”
      ————-

      The invocation of the Lisbon Treaty article 50 was a declarataion of the intent to withdraw from the treaty “pursuant to the provisions of the treaty” where it allows that to happen in Article 50. So that means that the Vienna Convention Article 68 is indeed applicable.

      “withdrawing from [or suspending] the operation of a treaty” which is what the invocation of Article 50 march 2017 did.

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh aye, and the important Article 68 itself:

      ———–
      “Article 68.
      REVOCATION OF NOTIFICATIONS AND INSTRUMENTS PROVIDED FOR IN ARTICLES 65 AND 67
      A notification or instrument provided for in article 65 or 67 may be revoked at any time before it takes effect.”
      ————-

      Brexit hasn’t happened yet, the 2 years specified in Article 50 aren’t up, the notification hasn’t taken effect, so the UK can just revoke the invocation and that’s that – continue as though it had never happened. No penalties or changes or terms.

    295. Alisdair says:

      CCTXT, yes I’ve noticed that for a while on all their videos. In fairness they are producing for an English market. Sadly their attitude tells you all you need to know. They can’t and will not discuss, they know how badly they are FCUKd, would muster up some empathy but can’t, fuck them!

    296. Tinto Chiel says:

      You know 77 Brigade are losing it when their operatives start talking to each other/himself/herself on Wings.

      “Only now – 311 years later – has Scotland finally begun to assert its legal rights in terms of the ToU. That WM has for so long been allowed to ignore and forget that such a document even existed brought them to fall into the false delusion that WM reigned supreme and that Scots would bloody well do as they say – and like it.”

      Well said, Proud Cybernat: think of all the troughers, Low Flying Jimmies and utter chancers who have trooped down to WM all these years to sell out their country in return for a few shekels.

      I hope next week’s legal and constitutional trip-wires explode an ECJ bomb under WM and a) confirm our sovereignty internationally b) lead quickly to a confirmatory referendum on remaining in the EU as an independent country (once again).

      Mind you, the Law’s a slippery eel, as my very expensive lawyer (partner in Dewey, Cheetham and Howe) used to opine.

      😛

    297. Kenno says:

      Channel 4 News asks what to do next if Teresa’s deal is voted down on Tuesday?

      They asked for Labour, Tory and Lib/Dem opinions, no one thought of asking the SNP and there was definitely NO mention of Scottish Independence.

    298. Giving Goose says:

      The Priti Patel comments on Ireland shine a light on the concept of Britishness.
      Priti shows that the nasty xenophobia and cruelty that we associate with Britishness is brutish.
      British = Brutish.
      It crosses ethnicitys.
      Nastiness always does.

    299. Sarah says:

      O/T – a small piece of good news for SNP supporters. Highland Council by-election result today – SNP won. 40% turnout, 3985 valid votes, 39 not valid.

      It took the 8th stage to produce the winner – sadly it was the Conservative who came second. How can people vote for them? And why did the other 6000 voters not bother?

    300. ronnie anderson says:

      Sarah The SNP ur playing creepy uppy , it doesn’t matter how the get there as long as they can .

    301. Golfnut says:

      @ Proudcybernat 5:40

      The anger will be felt strongest amongst NO voters. The realisation that they have mocked, made fools off, lied to and cheated. I don’t think truth and conciliation will get much of a look in.

    302. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@6.03pm

      “GERS for instance is useful but it does have a fair few fatal flaws”

      Yes it is useful for the Britnats to cane independence. The fatal flaw is that it is BRITNAT propaganda mince.

      Yesindyref2 you seem to have a blind soft spot for GERS. It is propaganda so why do you keep giving it, accidently I am sure, credence.

      C’mon get a grip.

    303. Giving Goose says:

      Sarah

      It’s blowing a hooley and been very wet.
      Maybe!

    304. Sarah says:

      @ Ronnie Anderson – true!!

    305. North chiel says:

      Ref “ Geeo says @ 0515pm” great post and summary of Brexit options.
      As I see it “
      (1)TM deal or similar “( outwith the single market ) and with the “ powergrab” adding insult to injury ( unless SC RIGHTLY backs the Holyrood continuity bill) . Union treaty “ breached” due to SM/CU access to N.Ireland. Scottish Gov mandate valid. ( material change in circumstances).

      (2) No Deal . Sovereign will of the people of Scotland to remain in EU completely overruled by Westminster. Again “ powergrab” would be “ in play” unless overruled by SC.
      In both cases above surely our FM would call Indyref2 . ( Our FM obviously awaits SC ruling on Thursday , which obviously is huge factor in both 1 & 2 above.).

      (3) Article 50 delayed . Our FM would postpone any call for Indyref2

      (4) Article 50 revoked .( as above) .

      Both 3& 4,above would surely mean postponement until further clarification .
      However, any 2nd EU referendum which overturned the leave vote would mean no early Independence vote? ( Holyrood mandate revoked & U.K. would have “ backstop” against Indy vote.
      If E& W voted leave again surely our FM would immediately call for vote?
      It would appear to myself that the SC decision on Thursday is going to be hugely significant both for our Holyrood government and equally significant for Westminster ( as this could completely scupper Brexit , if ruling favours Holyrood) . Conversely could completely scupper “ the union” if against Holyrood and sovereign will of people of Scotland.

    306. Gary45% says:

      Shitty Patel “Friend of Israel” (that says it all ) wanted to give more UK aid money to the Zionists army.(so they could kill more innocent Palestinians)
      This person!? is !!!?? I would get kicked off the Internet if I posted my feelings.

      Sarah@7.25
      The Conservatives in the Highlands are the world Hide and Seek champions. (Influx of “Southern Settlers” are to blame for 2nd place I’m afraid), they love what the SNP are doing but would NEVER credit them for it.

    307. Sarah says:

      @ Giving Goose – thanks for trying to cheer me up! But yesterday was a mild, dry day in Wester Ross. Today it is blowing a hooley but they did the count indoors, I believe!

    308. Daisy Walker says:

      Re 3blokes in a pub never discussing Scotland in any way.

      I’ve noticed it too, and actually I’m OK with it. The people who need to get educated about what is happening at WM are the English electorate, and 3biap are doing a very good job at informing them.

      It’s not their job to educate Scottish voters.

      And anyway, I saw their visit to Dublin, and I rather think they got their arses politely handed to them re their unconscious ‘colonialist’ type banter.

      No-one likes losing possessions, even nice people, even when it’s explained to them, that it wasn’t theirs to begin with and they were lucky they got to play with it for so long.

    309. geeo says:

      @north chiel7.42pm

      The great thing for us is, regardless of EU Continuity Bill case, and as said previously, we win either way that goes, is that ANY Brexit breaches the Treaty of Union and is subjugation of our legally protected Sovereign Will.

      Protection afforded by the Treaty of Union itself

      The very thing that holds the United Kingdom together, is the very thing we will use to bring it crashing down, and all we have to do, is insist it is upheld, knowing WM arrogance will never permit that polite request.

      Isn’t irony just delicious ?

    310. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      In a “northern” style.

      “I” am “looking forward” to “next week” and all “the decisions” that will be “forthcoming”.

      We’ll have a “decision” on Monday, a possible “decision” on Tuesday, then another on “Thursday”.

      A supply of “snacks” must be “bought in” before the week commences. It may be a “bouncy ride”.

      8=)

    311. Sarah says:

      @Gary45%

      I have to disagree with you about the settlers – there is a high proportion where I live, they form most of the active Yes groupers, and our Yes vote was 59%!

      I’m afraid it is just the usual thing – Conservative voters always will turn out to vote whereas the others are – what, fatalistic? Dim? Lazy? It could not be easier to vote nowadays – postal, proxy or roll up on the day – yet 60% don’t bother. Makes me think that voting should be made compulsory.

    312. Welsh Sion says:

      Daisy Walker @ 7.51 pm.

      Maybe not three men in a pub … but I give you …

      3. (of 60.) Two Men in a Pub

      Once upon a time there were two men sitting around a table in a pub. On the table there was a small tumbler with some golden coloured liquid inside.

      “I say, old chap,” said the first man pointing to the glass, “you seem to have a half empty glass of Scotch there. Let me top you up and dilute it for you with the best unionist water.”

      “Och nae, laddie,” replied the second man. “Ta tae ye, a’ the same. But thon glass is hauf fu’ tae me. An’ Ah dae like my whisky neat. Ah think Ah’ll get masel’ a double!”
      _______

      Parables for the New Politics
      2012-2017

    313. Breeks says:


      geeo says:
      7 December, 2018 at 8:14 pm
      @north chiel at 7.42pm

      …Isn’t irony just delicious ?

      I think there is still a missing piece of the puzzle conspicuous by its absence, and that is formal reaction from the EU itself.

      Is the EU going to throw open it’s arms to welcome Scotland’s emancipation? Or will it be seen as a Constitutional matter for the UK to resolve internally, which might not involve the EU at all? They have largely closed the file on Brexit.

      Said it earlier… We absolutely NEED Interlocutor status and International Personality for Scotland to be secured at the earliest opportunity. It is VITAL that Scotland has recognised competence to enter into sovereign agreements or there will be no meaningful interaction with the EU, and we will find ourselves Brexited by default.

    314. Rock says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      7 December, 2018 at 12:00 pm

      ““The EU itself is under potential threat of disintegration.
      Not a good scenario for Scotland.”

      Concern troll alert.”

      Robert Peffers says:
      25 March, 2018 at 1:22 pm (The winds of change):

      “If Germany has thrown in its lot with Spain they are, between them, signing the death warrant of the European Union and killing it off.”

      “RIP the European Union, for except for now lying down, you are now declaring yourself dead.”

    315. geeo says:

      @breeks

      I would find it difficult to believe that such moves are not part of the bigger picture strategy.

      For all we know, these things could have been done privately by the Scotsgov.

      Not like we would want WM to know ALL our planning strategy, is it ?

      Listening to the things being said at WM recently, it seems the SNP are dropping big hints they are up to something.

      There is also a confidence in how it is being said as well.

      We have sailed past their defences hardly raising an eyebrow, WM think they have Scotland covered.

      I believe the less we hear, the more is going on right now.

      Than FECKIN BLAM !!!

      SECTION 30 ya bass !

      INDYREF ya bass !!

      DISSOLVED UNION ….GIRFUY !!

      Thats my thinking, sort of. ?

    316. Rock says:

      Terence callachan says:
      7 December, 2018 at 3:34 pm

      “To the rock …
      Don’t be put off by others, continue to air your views, having one theme in a political discussion never succeeds”

      Unlike the more esteemed posters, I don’t have a God given right to post here.

      I post here by the grace of the owner of this site.

    317. Rock says:

      Gary45% says:
      7 December, 2018 at 7:44 pm

      “The Conservatives in the Highlands are the world Hide and Seek champions. (Influx of “Southern Settlers” are to blame for 2nd place I’m afraid), they love what the SNP are doing but would NEVER credit them for it.”

      It is the ultimate in stupidity to give those “Southern Settlers” the right to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England.

      In my humble opinion. I accept that more esteemed posters might have a different view.

    318. Rock says:

      Rock (5th December – “In different times”):

      “By the way Elizabeth, no hurry but don’t forget to make up your mind as what you value more:

      a better chance for Scottish independence by denying the vote to English settlers

      or a lesser chance by allowing the vast majority of English settlers to vote No again.”

    319. Cubby says:

      Rockshit

      Rockshit is everywhere stinking the place out. Best to hold your nose and pass on by as quickly as possible. What a lot of smelly crap.

    320. Scotspatriot says:

      Rock, you are pathetic….the real culprits of subservience to London Spivs is the low brow Scots, who’d do anything for a scrap off Longshanks Table .
      Get a grip man !

    321. ronnie anderson says:

      Am aff the Trolls oan speed tonight

    322. galamcennalath says:

      Wow, sounds like Corbyn is actually going to make a decision at last. Tuesday night, if May is defeated he will decide something. I won’t get over excited, though. It will be novel!

    323. Tukey says:

      A little O/T but pertinent when you think why Scotland is being ignored in Brexit and indeed could be attractive to others.

      I know, or think I know, most of the things WM is reluctant to lose as income to the big Westminster pot. I do, however, worry about the things that they do not “take” but want access to in the mid to long term.

      Faslane is the obvious one, but I am sure there are wealthy landowners willing to exchange huge areas of relatively barren granitic highlands for a peerage or lots of cash. What for? Well, away from the major fault lines, waste storage might become more attractive.

      How about the only long range rocket test range in Western Europe? The firing ranges where DU is an acceptable weapon, bombing ranges. Other countries enjoy access, the rUK could be excluded if Scotland gains Indy.

      I am sure there are more, the debate could be interesting. Possibly someone with more time and ability might take this on as a wee project.

    324. Meg merrilees says:

      Listened to Any Questions on R4 tonight -the sensible Dimbleby chairman.

      The usual discussions about Brexit however I thought it was a rather subdued English audience tonight – not much of the brash bravado and bullishness of earlier days.

      Seems they might have finally got the hint that it is all going pear shaped.

      Two panellists were excellent the new Plaid Cymru representative ( Not Leanne Wood but another woman-apologies was cleaning the kitchen windows while it was on) spoke eloquently about all aspects of No Deal and a second woman from the instate of Government spoke at length about what to expect from No Deal.

      The chap from Wetherspoons was on being as glib as ever but he met his match in the Institute of Government woman who actually pointed out that Brexit has completely ignored the democratic vote of the people of N. Ireland and Scotland who voted Remain and have been ignored —– loud applause!!!

      You can hear it again at lunchtime tomorrow – worth a listen as it was actually a controlled, sensible debate.

    325. galamcennalath says:

      Heaven knows why this thought popped into my head, but I just caught sight of that red rose symbol Labour use and Killie’s song burst onto my brain ….

      I realise the way your eyes deceive me
      With tender looks that I mistook for love
      So take away the flowers that you gave me
      And send the kind that you remind me of

      Paper roses, paper roses,
      Oh how real those roses seem to me
      But they’re only imitation
      Like your imitation love for me

      Scotland is no longer impressed by Labour’s fakery.

    326. Golfnut says:

      @breeks.
      To date, I am not aware of any occasions when the SNP have brought up the Treaty of Union, just the Acts of Union. The Acts are relevant to the internal process, they are the statutes bringing the Treaty into law. So the SNP are I believe using the internal process to highlight their arguments. I think when they start to reference the Treaty it will signal a significant move into the International arena. Frustrating as it is, I think it is a well developed and prepared process, which
      I would expect from the SNP which unfortunately we are not privy to.

    327. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath @9.25pm

      I’m sure he will decide what biscuit to have with his cup of tea.

    328. North chiel says:

      Yep “ Brian” , better get “ doon the toon” for these “ snacks” !

    329. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock at 8:47 pm.

      As you’ll know, I gave up responding to your utterances months ago. Sometimes I scroll by, sometimes I read and ignore, if your comment is short enough. Tonight I read. And I read this:

      “Proud Cybernat says:
      7 December, 2018 at 12:00 pm

      ““The EU itself is under potential threat of disintegration.
      Not a good scenario for Scotland.”

      Concern troll alert.”

      Robert Peffers says:
      25 March, 2018 at 1:22 pm (The winds of change):

      “If Germany has thrown in its lot with Spain they are, between them, signing the death warrant of the European Union and killing it off.”

      “RIP the European Union, for except for now lying down, you are now declaring yourself dead.”

      I cannot work out what you, as a commenter on WOS was actually offering as an opinion there. Your input reminded me of an interchat I had with DPD (the courier) last week.

      I worked out after a few exchanges that I was actually literally intercoursing with a bot. Your input follows the same pattern.

      “You” respond to key words in others’ comments, without any context. Now that I have realised you are a bot, I can go back to scrolling past your spurious input here.

      There was absolutely no coherent input in the comment I referenced so, I am out of here. (Dragon speak.)

    330. Meg merrilees says:

      galamcannalath

      big clue – I’ve read that he is apparently going to form a government and go to the EU and negotiate a new deal which keeps us in the customs union and he has told the people wanting a second referendum to hang fire.

      However, John mCdonnell has told the pole of Scotland that they would back a second referendum if the vote fails on Tuesday Hmmm!!!! Not quite the same message is it?

      Also, a group of 4 expats are trying to stop Brexit through the Supreme Court today by saying they used dirty money. Obviously, if Brexit is stopped it will be because of this challenge not anything the SNP has done.

    331. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi “North chiel”.

      It’s “just” your “style”, iye?

      8=)

    332. Rock says:

      Scotspatriot says:
      7 December, 2018 at 9:20 pm

      “Rock, you are pathetic….the real culprits of subservience to London Spivs is the low brow Scots, who’d do anything for a scrap off Longshanks Table .
      Get a grip man !”

      It is a matter for Scots to sort out. Nothing pathetic about it, just common sense and logic.

      It is the ultimate in stupidity to give English settlers the right to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England.

      Everywhere else in the world, they were unceremoniously kicked out.

      But the most stupid people on earth are happy to let them have a say on whether their country should be their colony or not.

    333. Artyhetty says:

      Ignore the ‘Rock’ he/she is there to distract, detract and deter. Ignore it folks.

    334. Hamish100 says:

      OT

      Older son got a email to get his DNA analysed for his ancestry. Worrying this US owned company doesn’t recognise the Celts — unless you are Irish of course. Great Britain is identified with the comment “A not so British village
      Official population data identifies the ethnicity of the village as 94% White British.
      Instead, their AncestryDNA test results revealed that the average resident was just 42% Great British (Anglo Saxon).”

      Shame on them just 42% anglo saxon.

      Guess who’s not willing to give up his spittle.

      Did the Gaels/ Pictish/ Welsh and other never exist?

    335. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      7 December, 2018 at 9:53 pm

      “I cannot work out what you, as a commenter on WOS was actually offering as an opinion there.”

      Sorry it was a bit difficult for you to work out.

      My point was when Abulhaq said that “The EU itself is under potential threat of disintegration”, he was immediately called a “Concern troll” by Proud Cybernat.

      Why did (s)he not call Robert Peffers a “Concern troll” when the latter claimed that the EU was dead?

      Can s)he do it now for the record?

      I don’t like hypocrisy and double standards whether they come from British unionists or Scottish nationalists.

    336. Cubby says:

      Rockshit

      What a stinking pile of verbal diarrhoea. Hold your nose and quickly stroll on by.

    337. Welsh Sion says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 9.31 pm

      I believe you are referring to Liz Saville Ronerts, MP, the Leader of Plaid Cymru at Westminster with whom I have had the privilege of sharing a table with at a London SNP Burns Night.

      Always full of sense, our Liz! 🙂

    338. galamcennalath says:

      Meg merrilees says:

      a group of 4 expats are trying to stop Brexit through the Supreme Court today by saying they used dirty money

      Indeed!

      “The “corrupt and illegal practices” of the Vote Leave campaign in the 2016 referendum undermine the validity of the decision to leave the EU, the high court has been told.

      Relying on findings made by the Electoral Commission about overspending by the pro-Brexit campaign, British people living in Europe have launched a legal case arguing the referendum result should in effect be set aside. “

      http://archive.is/TdaTj

      The jury is out (pun) on whether the Supreme Court is fair and just, or is just another instrument of a corrupt state. Perhaps the judgement next wee on the Holyrood continuation bill might give us some idea!

      I am assuming this corruption case will be referee to the Supreme Court, at some point.

      Another thing. While the EJC seems to appreciate that it should make judgements before political votes take place, the London courts drag their heels. It has taken a Hell of a long time for this Holyrood decision to surface. How long before the EURef corruption case is judged? We could be out of the EU by then!

    339. Terence callachan says:

      Hello
      Several people suggest we scroll bye posts by a certain “rock”
      No harm in suggestions
      I have one myself
      Read all posts
      Even those you disagree with
      Even those you dislike
      You will kern from it
      Ignoring everything a person says is ok if that is what you want to do but telling everyone lose to do he same is foolish
      Remember you are not the arbiter on here
      Everyone deserves their say
      Even this yiu disagree with

    340. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Depending on how Rev Stu reacts to unfolding events (and assuming there will be a cartoon from notorious slacker Cairns tomorrw), we are only two WOS posts away from 5,000 since the site began.

      Not much of a numerologist meself but these things do seem to have ‘meaning’…

      FWIW, I pray that WOS’s 5000th post has something to do with the resignation of Mundell.

      What would YOU like it to be about?!

      😉

    341. Meg merrilees says:

      Galamcennalath

      Correction the Expat case against Brexit has been before the High Court today which is expected to announce its finding on Monday or Tuesday

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46480372

      It’s going to be a very busy week for legal followers.

      I suppose the Government can always appeal against the judgement if it goes agin them.

    342. Ian Brotherhood

      FWIW

      I’d like it to be that (t)Ruthless Davidson has come out for Scottish Independence ‘ for a better country for her child to grow up in”

    343. Gary45% says:

      Rock@9.05
      What’s your point?
      My wife’s a “Southern Settler” but has the intelligence to think for herself. Indy 2014 was the turning point, if this is beyond your mind set? stare lovingly at pictures of your arsehole leader (whichever Yoon it might be)

    344. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      GERS aren’t just for Christmas.

    345. Liz g says:

      galamcennalath @ 10.18
      Been saying for some time now ” where’s our Judgement “?
      It will be interesting to look at the timing of it too!

      As for going to court about the Brexit campaign/vote, I would have thought that it’s never going to deliver (though still worth doing) anything much before March 29th….Because the exit date is in legislation already.
      I think, Westminster needs to change that law before anything about the exit date can be changed or extended.
      The Court’s cannot change the law they can only apply what laws Westminster has already written.

    346. cynicalHighlander says:

      Rock 9.05pm

      Piss off you racist. Tell me anybody in the whole wide world who got to choose where they were born?

    347. wull says:

      Thank you, Breeks at 1.04, and later – what you are saying seems to me correct, and very important.

      Thank you, too, to some of those responding in positive and sensible ways to Breeks.

      We don’t know what various things the Scottish government / SNP have kept hidden up their sleeve. I would be surprised if they do not have tacit arrangements with influential people within the EU concerning the various scenarios that might soon transpire. It is to me unimaginable that they would have taken the various stances they have taken without keeping the appropriate channels with the EU informed of what they hope to achieve thereby, including which outcomes they are aiming at.

      It is to be hoped that they have the right EU people ‘on side’, and it is not far-fetched to suppose that these people are highly appreciative of what Nicola Sturgeon and her crew are attempting. I am pretty sure that the EU too would be mighty relieved if the SNP can engineer a withdrawal of Article 50. It remains true that while Brexit is not as disastrous for the EU as it is for the UK, it is nevertheless not in the EU’s genuine interest either.

      No one profits from this fundamentally crazy thing. Yet everyone is helter-skeltering towards it. If Scotland does become the key factor that puts the brake on, stopping the momentum and reversing the direction of travel, I am confident that even the independence movement will profit enormously from this. It might take away the immediate reason for Indyref2, but we will see support for independence steadily rising from that point forward. Not only in Scotland, but in Europe too. And that support won’t ever decrease.

      It might take 3 or 4 or even 5 years till we do actually become independent, but I certainly can’t see it taking more than 6. So long as no disastrous mistake is made by Nicola Sturgeon and her team in the next two to three months. They will have difficult decisions to make: let’s hope they call it correctly.

    348. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Meg M –

      Nice one!

      Stranger things have happened, eh?

      😉

    349. yesindyref2 says:

      Ideally the 5000th post would be about Sturgeon’s surprise announcement there were 5,000 half days to Indy Ref 2.

    350. yesindyref2 says:

      Means the Rev’s next post wouldn’t be for 3 days, and I’d be a week out 🙂

    351. Kenno says:

      David Coburn resigns from UKIP complaining that they are being overrun by English Nationalists’.

      Well I never!!!

      UKIP was formed after the BNP disbanded.

      And it looks like the BNP have infiltrated UKIP. Won’t be long until we see the guy Robertson take over the leadership of UKIP

    352. mike cassidy says:

      In post 5000

      The Rev reveals that he his Rock

      2640 times

    353. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Kenno –

      Dunno if you’ve ever seen this, but this is the one where Coburn was properly ambushed when he tried to do a ‘periscope’ gig.

      It’s a slow-starter, please stay with it…

      (and watch out for the love-hearts streaming from his jacket pocket!)

      Soo-fekkin-perb!

      🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDTVNQpMM8k

    354. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, Vienna Convenon on the law of Treaties.

      Article 49.
      FRAUD
      If a State has been induced to conclude a treaty by the fraudulent conduct of another negotiating State, the State may invoke the fraud as invalidating its consent to be bound by the treaty.

      Similar for these:

      Article 50.
      CORRUPTION OF A REPRESENTATIVE OF A STATE

      Article 51.
      COERCION OF A REPRESENTATIVE OF A STATE

      Article 52.
      COERCION OF A STATE BY THE THREAT OR USE OF FORCE

      The convention is not retrospective by the way, but could perhaps be a guideline on past conduct.

    355. North chiel says:

      Hi “ Brian” , back up from “ doon the toon” , fully “ snack stocked” now as backstop ( if required), for “ Brexit pick& mix sweetie shop”. Let’s hope it’s “ soor plooms” for TM .

    356. Kenno says:

      Ian Brotherhood 11.52pm

      Brilliant mate,,what a funny video.

    357. yesindyref2 says:

      “eh” ?

      Broadsword to Danny Boy …

    358. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 11.52
      Re the Coburn video..
      While I don’t share their views!
      FYI
      My (adult) kid’s hated it.
      They felt sorry for him and thought it made us look bad.
      Many of his generation (and me) don’t get social media and to use it to abuse him didn’t sit well with them.
      Even when I reiterated the man’s obnoxious views… they STILL felt sorry for him!!
      They saw an old man being humiliated…not debated with,or dealt with in a humorous fashion.. and eventually I had to concede they had a point!!

      So while it was “in and of” it’s time,it’s not something I’d like to see us repeating!!

    359. We’ve now to believe that Amber Rudd is proposing a Norway Style deal ( BUT as far as we know Norway has already said it disnae want the Tories)

      and she, of all people, acknowledges that it would mean freedom of movement and Customs Union but it might be a solution apparently.

      Pretty sure the EU has said that there can be no further negotiations – this is the deal on offer.

      It’s a bit like a child asking for something and being told you can’t have it and then carrying on asking mum or dad to please let them have it. Quite often Mum and dad give in but I don’t think the EU will….

      Midnight news talking in terms of T May spending possibly her last weekend at Chequers as she could be just an MP by next tuesday night.

      Wonder what (t)Ruthless is thinking during all of this – or is she suddenly going to appear and save the Empire on her tank, knocking Boris and Jacob’s heads together as she passes en route to WM?

    360. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 11.52
      Re me @ 1.05
      Of course having said all that..
      I’m just going to have to take another look to make sure!!!

    361. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g at 1.04
      Thanks for that. I haven’t followed it, too busy and not really my thing, but suspect I’d feel the same.

    362. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 1.09
      Welll….
      If that’s as low as we ever go…
      I can live with it…
      Actually I pretty much don’t care how low we go next time… as long as we win peacefully.

      My only concern was that if my committed Yes voting kid’s didn’t like it!!
      What wider effect was it having?

    363. Thepnr says:

      Wondered what the stushie over the video was about so just watched it.

      No big deal that I can see, some people deserve to have the piss ripped out of them. David Coburn of UKIP is DEFINITELY one of those people.

      The least it done was inform another few thousand that the man clearly is an idiot. Can’t wait for the same to happen to May and Corbyn 🙂

    364. Lenny Hartley says:

      IB that Video of Coburn is brilliant, and if some snowflakes dont like it tough, (Am I allowed to say that?)

    365. yesindyref2 says:

      If it’s the one Ian B posted at 11.52 I can’t see anything in it either way. More of a zzz I think.

    366. Alistair Grapevine says:

      Ok just in. Haven’t seen this video. Please when posting put times for us ( as I have become “lurkers” ) to scroll back to.

    367. Alistair Grapevine says:

      Just found the video ( at 11.42pm posted by” Ian Brotherhood” ). Brilliant !

    368. Liz g says:

      Lenny Hartly @ 2.07
      Ye are allowed tae say anything ye like!!
      But if that’s MA Kid’s yer calling Snowflakes…
      Why thank you..
      They are indeed the empathic young Scots that ye want tae be choosing yer care home!!

      I can only repeat…
      That if that is how they saw it… Then we should “have a care” about this sort of thing.
      And it “was” how they saw it..

      Not my view,the auld fecker doesn’t give a shit about humiliating people, EG.. who need Social Security, and is very well paid to stand public vilification!!
      … It was an “information” only post!

      A cautionary tale if ye like..
      Aboot,people wi mums & dad’s who can’t use social media properly and would identify them with the auld bugger who was tryin to!!!

    369. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 1.50
      Och Alex…. It wiznt a stushie …. Well not on my part anyway!
      I was just pointing out my Kid’s reaction to it!
      Let me tell ya….
      I think the auld fucker deserved it… and more…
      Whoever thought to do it…. Should take a bow IMHO!

      But for those ( I would have said, adorable Angels rather than Snowflakes,but hey,ho) who had very little idea who exactly he was and, didn’t really identify him as a Kipper… The immediate and overall emotion was pity…
      And the pity was for what WE were doing to him…
      They saw him ( in that particular situation) as “easy meat”.

      Sooo… I guess what I’m really sayin is,… We don’t want to be activating pity for May,Corbin and Especially those who really,really think they need the the Union.

      Anyhoo… it’s no really a big deal…. and as I told my lot at the time…. I’m struggling tae care if he didn’t like his adventure into social media,if he didn’t know what he was doing… He or his minions should have!!

    370. Shinty says:

      Sorry if this has already been posted but it’s just too good not to share (picked up from Grouse Beater’s twitter)

      https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1071078003780870146

    371. sandy says:

      Shinty @ 4.51 am.

      I have worked with Norwegians both on & off-shore & had some enlightening experiences. One that comes to mind was aboard a Scot/Norge platform. Here, the Norwegians spoke only Norwegian, much to the annoyance of certain ENGLISH crew. The reason for this was that the ignorant English thought they couldn’t understand what they were saying. Little did they know that every Norwegian had fluent English. Their arrogant remarks did not go down well but were ignored. How did I know. Was told that all Scots on board were respected & that the English crew could go to hell. They were a great bunch to work with.
      A second incident occurred after coming ashore in Oslo. A Norwegian engineer with whom I had just finished working with took me with him for a farewell drink. He knew the places where the prices were not so steep. As we conversed & the nectar eased the tongue a little bit, he stated, “Sandy, England gets only one thing from us & that is a Christmas tree, f**k all else & we’ve got millions of them. I doubt if any Norwegian has an gram of respect for that country & unfortunately, many of the people”.
      And that was him being tactful.

      In fact, in my experience of working in Western coastal European countries, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium & France, if you were Scots (or Irish), no problem. The English were viewed with, how shall I say it, suspicion.

      Incidentally, whilst in Toronto & being driven around the sights by a gentleman of Scots ancestry, I pointed to a cluster of houses which seemed to be a little bit apart from the rest. I was informed that that was an English enclave.

      What does all that tell you. Yes, there are many decent people in England & I’m beginning to feel sorry for them. Why don’t they just get rid of their aristocracy/ruling class & join the real world.

    372. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Why did (s)he not call Robert Peffers a “Concern troll” when the latter claimed that the EU was dead?

      Can s)he do it now for the record?”

      MC troll. Nope. Not biting. Byeee.

    373. Confused says:

      Good story sandy. I have read many similar in my time – everyone else just getting on, getting along … then some inglish twats just getting on everyone’s nerves. Arrogance, smug entitlement and total blindness to it.

      Google for “the eternal anglo” and check it out – some of the images are pretty funny.

      Its a worldwide phenomenon – they have no friends, in any country at any level – the abusive shit that ordinary Americans and Germans give them is brilliant.

      At some point, once we have worked thru all the paperwork, done the dance, our FM will just call it and take it to the UN – and everyone will be behind us. But we need the Americans most.

      I have no sympathy for them – they have the democratic power to fix their own problems – so to hell with them. As for this Peoples Vote BS – we should give it a wide berth.

      The inglish public is a deluded, insane animal – it thinks England is an autarchy, a latent empire being held back by euro parasites – they voted for brexit because in their mind it said “WOGS AHT”. The big joke about it all is how it has backfired on the elites – blaming all problems on immigrants (carefully avoiding bankers bailouts, austerity, neoliberalism) seemed clever but the dumb proles actually believed it.



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