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Wings Over Scotland

The fine art of self-delusion

Posted on October 04, 2018 by

When the news is slow, we sometimes steel ourselves and go for a little paddle in the Yoonstream – a private collection of the most unhinged hardcore-Unionist accounts on Twitter – and see what they’re getting themselves all worked up about.

For a good few months now, they’ve all been posting mad graphs like this:

And we’re not quite sure why.

The one above is from longstanding rage-fountain Neil Edward Lovatt, whereas this delightfully pretty one is from noted loony and frequent Twitter-ban victim Steve Sayers (whose stupendous grasp of figures alert readers may recall from a previous example):

And this version is from our old favourite Duncan Hothersall today:

Which has led him to make one of his legendary predictions.

We do love when he does those.

Whatever the visual styles, though, all of them purport to show the same thing: a striking trend of divergence between Yes and No support since the 2014 referendum, from neck-and-neck to a No lead of 10 points or more.

And the only slight problem with it is that it isn’t even a tiny bit true.

What Scotland Thinks records actual Scottish opinion polling since the indyref. It does so in a rather unhelpful way, splitting polls into pre- and post-EU referendum chunks with different Y-axis values, but you can still see the trends clearly enough.

(Click to enlarge the pic.)

And they are, in essence, that nothing at all has changed in four years. Depending on how you spin the stats you can suggest either a 4-point shift towards Yes or (at worst) a 1-point shift towards No since the vote, but in essence it’s all just margin-of-error fluctuation that amounts to zero. The odd one-off micro-blip aside, those graphs are visibly as flat as a pancake.

(This doesn’t mean nobody’s changed their mind, of course. All sorts of evidence suggests that as many as a third of Scots have probably switched sides, but in roughly equal numbers each way and therefore not affecting the overall situation.)

If you include DKs (and you shouldn’t, really, because as a rule Don’t Knows don’t vote), the numbers are like this:


Yes: 44%
No: 49%
DK/WNV: 4%

JULY 2018

Yes: 42%
No: 48%
DK/WNV: 11%

That’s a 5-point No lead increasing to a 6-point No lead over the period. (But still less than the 10-point victory they recorded in the actual vote.)

If you exclude DKs, which is the generally more accurate measure, you get:


Yes: 47%
No: 53%

JULY 2018

Yes: 47%
No: 53%

Which is no change at all, but again a reduction of 4 points in the No lead since the actual vote in September 2014, from 10 points to six.

The WST figures also exclude arguably more relevant variants on the question which have put Yes in a more favourable position, such as this one which cut the gap to 49-51, and this one – actually the most recent poll – which put Yes in a four-point LEAD.

But even leaving those aside, there simply isn’t a single shred of evidence suggesting ANY kind of trend towards No, far less a 10-point divergence since 2014. If anything the opposite is demonstrably true – Yes support in polls is higher now than it was in September 2014, and has been so in the vast majority of polls since then.

Don’t get us wrong – we’re sure there’s some sort of arcane statistical voodoo you can perform on this (or any) set of numbers to produce your desired effect, as memorably satirised by geek comic strip XKCD:

But that doesn’t make any of them actually mean anything. The cold hard reality is that despite the oil-price crash (which should have played very well for No) and the Brexit vote (which should probably have played better for Yes), Scottish public opinion on independence basically hasn’t moved at all in four years.

So anyone who tries to tell you – by drawing fantasy lines on top of real-data dots – that it has should obviously be regarded with suspicion and probably a fair degree of pity. Because they can’t possibly think they’re fooling anyone but themselves.

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  1. 04 10 18 18:56

    The fine art of self-delusion | speymouth

171 to “The fine art of self-delusion”

  1. Thepnr says:

    “Scottish public opinion on independence basically hasn’t moved at all in four years.”

    That’s true but it has hardened in particular on the Yes side. I have both feet firmly planted in support of Independence and no matter what the British Nationalist media throw I’m staying firmly rooted to this spot.

    The No side, I think are a bit less confident of the solidarity of their support which is planted in wet sand, soggy paper and only manages to survive due to a daily feeding of manure from the media and BBC.

  2. Ken500 says:

    Pollsters are manipulate the vote. To make millionaires loads and loads more illegal money. The lunatics are running the asylum. Why people vote Tories/unionists in Scotland us a mystery. The rest of the unionists are just as bad. Pretty weird when other Polls but the SNP in a great big lead for Holyrood and Westminster. Getting rid of Labour abd taking the fight to the Tories. The SNP will win, Might take the Independence vote over the wire. A Labour reshuffle. What Kelly? for leader. There are no words,

  3. Dan Huil says:

    And devolution killed the independence movement stone dead. Bless.

  4. defo says:

    I want a continuous graph,in real time, of that yoonstream rage.

  5. Normski says:

    How come there’s no Least Squares Fit or Spline Fit?

  6. manandboy says:

    Well done, Stu.

    Another stat which hasn’t changed is the level of BritNat fear. The latest film about the so-called Irish ‘Famine’, ‘Black47’ is only showing in the Glasgow Film Theatre (GFT). Nowhere else in Scotland. Can’t speak for England.
    Sorry,no graph.

  7. Andy Anderson says:


    But I know that the YES vote is rock solid and that people I know who were NO are asking lots of questions showing that they are considering YES.-

  8. defo says:

    Hereditary MSP Anas, and everyones favourite sunshine girl Jackie B cast aside.
    Moodie must be gutted. 🙂

  9. Arbroath1320 says:

    I am always curious as to how many, if any poll respondents are from the E.U. They were, in a not insignificant part, part of the reason we lost in 2014 I believe because they, not unnaturally, believed the shite pouring out of the unionists mouths and in particular from Broon the Loon.

    I am pretty certain that this time round almost every single person from the E.U. WILL be voting for independence.Their numbers alone should take us pretty damned close to the “winning line if not actually over it.

    I am also rather curious as to the numbers of 16/17 year olds who have responded to these polls. I regularly read/hear that around 80%+ of them are pro independence and again their numbers will bolster whatever figures there are for YES quite significantly in my rather blinkered view. 😉

  10. Bob Mack says:

    ” No Dougal This is close up, that is far away” Must dig out my Father Ted set

  11. Tackety Beets says:

    Sorry OT
    Man & Boy 5.41pm

    I nipped to VUE Inverness to watch Black 47 sadly last showing tonight Thursday.

  12. Tackety Beets says:

    Sorry meant to add Dick head of Scot lab has handed Anas his ar$e.

  13. Macart says:

    You can see why they’re a tad nervous.

    Most of the media and all the unfettered access they could want. Most of the Westminster parties and all of the political orthodoxy behind them. Too close to call.

    It’s a pickle. 😎

  14. galamcennalath says:

    As others have said, there are perhaps other measurements and graphs which might be enlightening!

    Britnat activity fighting the perceived threat of Scottish self determination. It’s probably quantifiable via social media. It would be all quiet until Smith failed to deliver. Then their fear, defensiveness, panic, screeching, whatever, began to rise as they realised their BritNat masters had screwed up and their UK wasn’t as secure as they thought it was!

    Quite possibly there are peaks in response to events at Holyrood and elections. However, it feels to me like a rising trend/graph overall!

    Like Rev Stu’s conclusions above about Indy support, BritNat activity and the dissolution probability of their UK certainly hasn’t dropped off!

    It’s all interrelated.

  15. Albaman says:

    I want a ringside seat, in order to watch Labour’s branch office implode!.

  16. Thepnr says:

    Haven’t saw Black 47 as it’s not playing in any cinema near me. It’s a Netflix Original production just as Outlaw King the film about Robert the Bruce is.

    Both will appear on Netflix before you can see them anywhere else so worth ditching your TV licence for and using the money paid to buy a subscription which if you share with family or friends will cost you less than £20/year each.

    You’re spending your own money, don’t waste it paying for propaganda.

  17. yesindyref2 says:

    Going OT a little early, there was a standard response from HES to complaints which stated this queitly at the end:

    We wish to advise that the public will be able to access Holyrood Park as normal on Saturday 06 October.“.

    We’re all members of the public, and it does seem to be an indirect answer to the unspoken question, “will we be denied access to the rest of the park, apart from the roads the march is on?”. The answer from that is clearly no, so we can take our picnics onto the grass and eat away happily 🙂

    There’s legitimate complaints, but there’s also some stirring going on, we need to be careful not to be wound up and spoil the peaceful nature of all the marches so far.

  18. Michael Cameron says:

    “That’s a 5-point No lead increasing to a 6-point No lead over the period”
    You’ve either transposed the figures or this is wrong. You show a 5 pt yes lead in the first set.

  19. Dr Jim says:

    Normally in public opinion polling things change but it seems in the case of Scottish Independence the polls aren’t allowed to change

    I suppose when they run out of the right people to poll on this question they’ll either not produce any more because there’s no appetite for polling on the matter or they’ll just have to do what they’re doing now and engineer results that fit the agenda of the government of the day

    Gosh does this mean they could be fixed?

    How awful

  20. ahundredthidiot says:

    I am putting £1k on an in excess of 60% win for Yes at the next IndyRef.

    and I don’t ever bet.

  21. ALANM says:

    I struggle to understand how anyone can go from yes to no. I’ve never come across anyone who’s made that journey.

    This is important as I’ve always taken the view that converts were converts for life and that older no voters would eventually make way for younger yes voters guaranteeing independence at some point.

  22. galamcennalath says:

    If ‘flat’ seems a wee bit disappointing considering all that’s happened, it should be viewed against a background of relentless anti Indy campaigning including elections where the BritNats stood on that one issue. By contrast, pro Indy campaigning has been fairly low key.

    I am certain when Yes2 fires up its engines full throttle we will see a firm shift to Yes.

    Most of the BT 2014 case has been negated or even turned on its head. While in 2014 NO looked to many as the safe option that will certainly not be the case next time!

    So starting somewhere around 50% is brilliant!

  23. call me dave says:

    Branch office pruned and MSP J. Kelly finance spokesperson I see on revs twitter.

    Shortbread’s version here.

    O/T back to the footie, half time 0-1.

  24. manandboy says:


    Despite being ruled by Perfidious Albion in the manner of a British Colony; suppressed, massively exploited, heavily indoctrinated by BritNat State propaganda, and containing a significant sector of Loyalist residents and English incomers, and Unionist run Councils, we are encouraged by all and sundry to cling tenaciously to the belief that the administration and outcomes of elections and referendums in Scotland is above reproach and to be trusted implicitly.

    The value of Scotland to the virtually bankrupt British Establishment is so great as to be virtually indispensable, and that alone is evidence sufficient to be able to say, that on the balance of probabilities, the reliability of Scotland’s voting results cannot be taken for granted.

    The voting system of election to the Scottish Parliament was designed by Unionists, precisely to prevent overall control by the SNP.

    It does not require a great stretch of the imagination to think that the same Westminster which devised the anti-SNP voting system for Holyrood, is going to treat the rest of Scottish Democracy as sacrosanct – and leave it completely untouched by England’s treacherous hand.

    So also with opinion polls. What a simple and easy way to persuade Scots to think that the desire for Independence is roughly 50/50.
    Or have opinion polls been officially excluded from the propaganda handbook? Naw, ah didnae think so.

    Keep in mind that the entire extraordinary and ongoing Skripal saga, begun by and being kept alive by the British government, is based on ‘the balance of probabilities’.

    British Brainwashing – it reaches everyone and it never stops.

  25. manandboy says:

    Tackety Beets says:
    “I nipped to VUE Inverness to watch Black 47 sadly last showing tonight Thursday.”

    Thanks Tackety. Didn’t know about Vue in Inverness.

    It certainly seems that the cinema chains are not showing it and it can’t be for reasons other than political. Shades of Cameron and ‘Outlander’.

  26. K1 says:

    It has always been so that the direction of movement is from No to Yes. There would need to be an astounding and unimaginable radical shift in UK politics for this trend to reverse itself.

    This artcile merely confirms the reality in Scotland. The democratic deficit will never cease so long as we remain in this so called union. Independence is coming.

  27. Orri says:

    One problem I have is those are the results of different polling companies some more Yes friendly than others.

    Not only that but the No side really haven’t quit and have the majority of the media on their side.

    Besides which Brexit is deliberately up in the air.

  28. Clydebuilt says:

    Manandboy @ 6.57pm So knowing all that why did the Scot. Gov. Not have exit polls organised for Indy Ref 1. Plus do more to tighten up on postal votes for I R 1 plus Holyrood elections

  29. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    The polls may be flat but the pro unionist folk I know have gone quiet.

    Some, I think have realised that they were had with the failure of the vow etc.

    One wee lady who is rarely short of a wasp to chew on did know where to look when I announced that I was buying Ration Book covers for my friends and family at Christmas.

    I did add “well better together”.

  30. Orri says:

    One problem I have is those are the results of different polling companies some more Yes friendly than others.

    Not only that but the No side really haven’t quit and have the majority of the media on their side.

    Besides which Brexit is, perhaps deliberately, up in the air. It’s becoming less likely but there’s still the faint possibility it could be postponed indefinitely or even cancelled. At some point Westminster need to commit or the EU will do so for them.

    There was a storm last year, I think, where the rescue ships waited outwith the worst until it had passed before going in. Sometimes no matter how much you want to you can’t go in.

    The best the SNP can do is actually suggest a sensible course for Scotland and the UK as a whole. Soon enough people will get the picture that there’s some who’d cut their own nose off to spite their faces or in this case the SNP.

  31. Ken500 says:

    Basic maths totally alludes them. ‘Emperor’s new clothes’. Pollsters manipulate the Polls to make loads of money for millionaires and corrupt political associates. With other Polls showing high returns for SNP at Holyrood and Westminster. Independence support will go up. Get Labour out of the way. In decline. Take the fight to the Tories. The SNP will win. Then another IndyRef. Still increased undecided, which way will they go.

    Why do people vote Tory in Scotland. Have they learnt nothing yet. The total shambles. After Thatcher do they have no memoirs or source some facts.

  32. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi call me dave at 6:56 pm.

    You typed,
    “Branch office pruned and MSP J. Kelly finance spokesperson I see on revs twitter.

    Shortbread’s version here.

    Whenever I read the name “James Kelly” – the one who’s an MSP – I always recall this in my mind…

  33. Ken500 says:

    All Comments did not appear. Only one. 1 posted. Then appeared at once.

  34. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I know of nobody who has gone for YES to NO but I could detail a significant number who have gone from NO to YES or thinking about it.

    Brexit and May against Corbyn (and May against various others in her party)are the main features in politics at the moment. We started at below 30% last time.

  35. yesindyref2 says:

    There’s NOes who are more receptive, probably really a don’t know. Still slag off the SNP, Sturgeon and Salmond, but not Indy itself. Fertile ground.

  36. brewsed says:

    The data has a lot of noise and, by attempting to smooth out the noise, practically anything can be read into it. Looking at the Times / Yougov poll for 1-15 June 2018, the question about Scottish independence is the last of fifteen questions most of which require some thought before answering. Being of a cynical nature, I wonder if the positioning of the question influences the return. However:

    • The 47/53%, or whatever, split has been pretty constant since 2014 despite the unionists being in continuous state of campaigning against independence and the Scottish National Party not [being in continuous state of campaigning].

    • The last independence referendum started with Yes on about 23% and moved, at one point, to over 50%. Next time, starting at 47%, or whatever, the hurdle is a little less daunting.

    • While there appears to be a 6% difference, it only requires 3% to move from No to Yes to get over the line.

    • And, as it become clearer the line is going to be crossed, the No voters are increasingly likely to stay at home (as, I suppose it will be argued, may potential Yes voters).

    • Hence, the continuous hysterical screeching we hear from the unionists.

    PS. I understand it will be a nice sunny day on Saturday. Just the sort of day to have a picnic in a park after a wee walk down town. Tartan rug being looked out.

    PPS. Will there be a Wings stand in the High St?

  37. call me dave says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon

    Never seen that one before. 🙂

    Looks like the night of the ‘*short penknives’ on labour twitters

    (*for older viewers only)

    Footie 🙁

  38. Glamaig says:

    manandboy says:
    4 October, 2018 at 5:41 pm

    ‘The latest film about the so-called Irish ‘Famine’, ‘Black47’ is only showing in the Glasgow Film Theatre (GFT). Nowhere else in Scotland. Can’t speak for England.’

    And its been on this week only, tonight seems to be the last night looking at their schedule.

    In England it made it into the Odeon in London and Manchester.

    Its a great film with lots of references I only understood because Ive been reading about the subject (no doubt better known in Ireland). A lot of dialogue in Irish most with sub-titles. Doesnt show the Brits in a good light in general but there are two genuine English heroes in the film (no spoilers!) It has European funding 🙂

    Anybody know when we can see Outlaw King? As far as I can tell it will cinema release in February, but if Black 47 is anything to go by, be quick or you’ll miss it.

  39. cearc says:


    Maybe Greg should just do the SLabs with blank faces as they change so often.

  40. Ken500 says:

    Labour back in meltdown another crisis. How many do they need. Out with the old and in with the rest. Not the best. There are none. Go out for a few hours. Labour in meltdown again. Briggs and Sarwar. Not better together. Missing each other already. Making a fool of Holyrood. Total disrespect. What is wrong with these people?

  41. ronnie anderson says:

    Who’s inheriting Jackie Baillies Abacus

  42. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 at 6:22pm …. “We can take our picnics onto the (Holyrood Park) grass and eat away happily.”

    Where did that come from Indyref2? Is that from an official source? As far as I can make out we’ll be marching through the park, from beginning to end, escorted by AUOB reps and the Police with no “detouring.”

  43. Ken500 says:

    ‘Black 47’ will go to DVD or Netflix. To a wider audience. ‘Outlander’ was on More 4 on a Thursday 9pm. The books are still good. Including Irish history ones. A totally different perspective than the one commonly portrayed. An education. It can’t be kept hidden.

  44. Eppy says:

    Saturday sounds like the weather will be perfect for a wee stroll through Edinburgh. Sadly work commitments have made it impossible for me to take similar walks recently, but I am determined not to miss this one.

    Like most families in this country, we have a wee tartan picnic blanket and I will dig it out for over my shoulders, if the walk should get chilly and have it for the picnic at the end.

    Looking forwards to meeting up with some family members and friends old and new.

  45. robertknight says:

    Outstanding comedic value that Dunkin Horsefeathers chap. Simply outstanding…

  46. call me dave says:

    From revs twitter for the folks who wont go there.

    Scottish Labour leader sacks two leading moderate MSPs in ‘chaotic’ reshuffle

  47. jfngw says:

    Murphy, Dugdale, Leonard, Next!

  48. jfngw says:

    Just cracking open bottle of Yorkshire Bitter as a commemorative drink to some of the finest Labour talent removed from their roles. It tastes like pish, so a fitting tribute to one of them.

  49. Ken500 says:

    The reason given for no Exit Polls at IndyRef1. There was nothing to compare it too. There had not been an IndyRef before, it is not the Gov who holds Polls. It is political parties or Pollsters. Often in collusion with the Political Parties. In order to manipulate the vote. Political Parties in Gov have to follow Parliamentary rules. Or they are supposed to for fairness. Supposed to be enforced by Law. Increasingly made redundant.

    Electoral rules are being illegally broken frequently. Leading to illegal gerrymandering. Donation limits secretly broken etc. They are supposed to be enforce for fairness. Wealthy people are illegally influencing elections and nothing is done about it. It gets swept under the carpet.

  50. Ken500 says:

    What happened to the ‘right to roam’. Can people not have a picnic on open spaces where they like as long as they are not bothering anyone.

    The March will be great in any case. Many people cannot stay on. Thanks to all those who are marching from those who are not able. Working, ill or with caring duties. Or just the logistics or other commitments.

  51. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    HI Petra at 8:13 pm.

    You typed and pasted,

    “@ yesindyref2 at 6:22pm …. “We can take our picnics onto the (Holyrood Park) grass and eat away happily.”

    Where did that come from Indyref2? Is that from an official source? As far as I can make out we’ll be marching through the park, from beginning to end, escorted by AUOB reps and the Police with no “detouring.””

    I saw two comments today (spent an hour trying to ‘refind’ them without success) that quoted emails in response to emails to HES.

    HES typed in both of them (said to be identical) that Holyrood Park would be open to the public as usual on Saturday, which would tend to suggest that as the march gets to Holyrood, it can disperse into the park, for picnics, Morris dancing, jeely piece making workshops, midgie counting, and so on.

    STATIC stuff (stage, stalls, etc) was what they had a downer on.

  52. Petra says:


    I was just thinking that we could hold a crowdfunder and send a copy of “Propaganda Blitz” to the BBC, STV and all Scottish journalists. Let them know that we’re onto them, lol.

  53. Dr Jim says:

    Eng;and caught dumping waste in Scotland:

    Did you know that Scotlands borders are already being guarded
    by our very own SEPA because England Wales and Northern Ireland trucks have been trundling over our Scottish borders filled with waste and dumping it illegally in our fair country

    SEPA have been catching them and turning them round but the thing is who authorised England and its *regions* to come to Scotland and illegally dump waste in the first place

    This could not have been a coincidence from our loving caring neighbours who are looking after Scotlands interests now could it

  54. call me dave says:

    @ronnie anderson

    The abacus?

    Have a look…Aye!

    The Slab ‘shadow cabinet’ is a shadow of its former self.

  55. Ken500 says:

    Bailie was chatting away with Colin MacKay on the Holyrood stairs. Obviously did not see it coming. The abacus wrong footed again. 2 and 2 make three. Take two away. Another few gone. Another few hit the dust. MacKay oblivious as well. So much for hand on the pulse. So called shadow health secretary, away to the Dentist.

  56. cearc says:


    James Kelly!

  57. Douglas says:

    I still think most public polls are commissioned not so much to gage opinion as to try to shape it.

    The way that questions are framed and the selection of responders seems to be becoming more and more contorted to achieve the ‘independence is going nowhere’ result that those commissioning the polls want.

    I find this enormously encouraging.

    Even better is how shrill the ‘we don’t want another referendum’ chorus has become.
    They are scared, which makes me think that their private polls are much less reassuring for the British Nationalists.

  58. Marcia says:

    In the next Independence reference there will be no reason for not conducting an exit poll as there are clear figures from the 2014 vote to compare with.

  59. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    ‘It tastes like pish.’

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    Are you sure you’ve warmed it up properly?


  60. Petra says:

    @ Call me Dave at 8:26 ….. “Labour Reshuffle.”

    Dearie me, mair trouble at the O. K. Corral?

    Jackie Baillie the ‘immensely experienced economy spokesman” and Shona Robinson chickens coming home to roost for Sarwar, pals of Kezia, out on their erses.

    Corbyn’s cracking down on the wee Scottish branch office of London Labour, right enough.

    Who’ll be replacing them on the dream (dreigh) team? Who’s left?

  61. Bob Mack says:

    Has James Kelly got enough fingers and toes to be Finance spokesman ?.

  62. Nana says:


    Tommy Sheppard and Keith Brown on the panel talking indy

    Watch again

  63. Fred says:

    Slab’s Cabinet of all the Talents!

  64. Robert Peffers says:

    Now let’s be a bit careful of the truth and the truth as told by the MSM.

    Here are some very recent YouTube breaking news videos.

    This from 4 hours age from this comment

    This from 10 hours ago:-

    This from 1 hour ago:-

    This from 2 hours ago:-

    Does any Winger really believe a word the MSM blares out across the laughably named United Kingdom?

  65. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    A supporter of Ms Baillie and Mr Sarwar claimed that their removal was based on “factionalism ahead of competence”, adding: “When you’re in trouble you don’t take your two best players off the pitch”.


    Your two best players?


    If BritNat Labour in Scotlands best really are Sarwar and Bailey why do they wonder why no one votes for them anymore?


    For “moderate” read as “Blairite”

    BritNat Media in Scotlands Westend Blairite NUJ members will be full on attack of Corbyn and Leonard over this.

    Will make a change from EssEnnPeeBaad

    Mair popcorn required


  66. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @BDTT (8.48) –

    I’m up for the midgie-counting!


  67. Rock says:

    “If anything the opposite is demonstrably true – Yes support in polls is higher now than it was in September 2014, and has been so in the vast majority of polls since then.”

    So what excuse will Nicola give when she rules out holding an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?

    The Russian Novichok attack in Salisbury?

    The accusation against Alex Salmond?

    The coming soon snap general election?

  68. Macart says:

    James Kelly Shadow Finance…..


    Wait now! That’s weird. I almost felt happy.

  69. Petra says:

    Oh I see that there’s a SLab shadow cabinet list out now. How’s that going to work with Rhoda Grant, Monica Lennon and Alex Rowley on the same team?


    @ Brian at 8:48pm …. “Open to the public as usual on Saturday.”

    Brian couldn’t that relate to the public in general, meaning individuals who are not part of the march?

    This march, that so many people were looking forward to, is now descending into an absolute farce, so much so that I’ve just heard that a large group that I know of are no longer going on Saturday. That’ll please the individuals who have been / are continuing to attempt to totally confuse the issue.

    And where’s Manny Singh et al? Instead of making veiled threats to HES it would suit him / them better to get some directives / guidelines out there.

    Latest unofficial news: picnic all over Princess Street and in Holyrood Park. Not good enough and a recipe for disaster, imo.

  70. Ken500 says:

    Labour list tweet from Nick ?

    Who cares? Jobs for the useless.

    Notice at the bottom. ‘From Camden Town. 6.03’. Given approval?

    Says it all. The controllers meet the branch office. Not even Independent.

  71. jfngw says:

    A leading Scottish LibDem (well AC-H, so make your own mind up) has confirmed his LibDem position. A People’s Vote is a UK vote, it doesn’t matter how Scotland votes the will of England can over ride it.

    This just confirms my opinion that the SNP should not touch the Peoples Vote with a barge-pole. It would effectively tie them into a vote they have agreed to and we would need to accept the result as a UK decision.

  72. Confused says:

    The finale of Vikings Season 5 had LESS knifeplay than the current unionist parties antics.

    Jackie the Baillie knows where the bodies are buried, since she ate them. Now she is gone, from Lenny-the-Dicks lightsabre.

    Anas returns to the cash and carry from whence he came – there’s a man who knows how to turn an 8% profit on a gross of HARIBO and can still fix your filling on the side. Woe! – that his talents never found their full expression as FM.

    I was about to watch the Walking Dead season 8 but I am frightened I will miss out on more GORE and BRUTAL VIOLENCE.

    Some WINGER should join SLAB tomorrow and see if they can become LEADER by next weekend.

  73. Ken500 says:

    Scottish Tories comment on Labour recent meltdown. ‘Bewildering and political farce’. Well they should know. From bewilderment it just becomes hilarious. Hysterical. The Con Conference being overshadowed by the latest Labour farce. Hoping people can forget the horrific sight of the smirking dancing. Engrained in the memory. The Tory cringe. The fringe meetings went badly too by all reports. An empty Conference room most of the time.

    The unionists buying a £10K flagpole but making sure the Scottish flag can’t be flown. None at the park Proms etc but plenty at the March. Ain’t no stopping that now. On the move. Unlike the creeping dance moves. How bizarre and out of place.

  74. Thepnr says:


    Their is NO objection whatsoever to marchers in Edinburgh on Saturday using the park in any way they want. The objection from HES is clearly against the setting up of stalls and a stage for speakers.

    If people who planned to go have been put off by this then I see that as a victory for those that don’t want to see any support for Independence on our capitals streets and I’d be disappointed if that were shown to be true.

    For me personally it has had the opposite effect and I will be going there with an increased vigour to let the people of Edinburgh see the strength of support for Independence with their own eyes.

    Don’t for a moment think that anywhere near even half the population of Scotland know about this march on Saturday. The sad truth is that the majority don’t even know it’s going to take place because the media won’t tell them that.

    I hope this little splurge of publicity will increase the numbers attending and believe it will, the obstacles put in our way are there to be leaped. I couldn’t give a toss about who is to blame for what. This won’t be the first nor the last time that we will encounter resistance to our goal of obtaining Independence for Scotland.

    Saturday will be brilliant and just maybe the largest march in support of anything that Scotland has ever seen. Be there to witness history in the making and lets get those permanent smiles on our faces. We’re looking to win friends and converts to our cause so let’s just do that.

  75. ronnie anderson says:

    Who’s gonnae be the 6th Blis leader lol

  76. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


    Looks like the “Radical Left” trying to damage the Independence movement again with this AUOB protest picnic shite.

    They may just be trying for self aggrandisement in that traditional trougher way ala BritNat Labour though.

  77. ronnie anderson says:

    Petra Auob latest Gary J Kelly being interviewed on STV at 10.30 ( it say’s it oan the grapevine ), and thats before his meeting with HES at 1.30 pm tomorrow .

  78. twathater says:

    @ Call me Dave @ 8.26pm just read your telegraph link surely this is a shoe in for a comedy script , or the reporter is ripping the urine ,

    Anyone fancy a laugh check out this link and the descriptions of sarwar , baillie , foulks and the rest of the numties

  79. Petra says:

    @ Ken at 9:39pm …… “From Camden Town, London.”

    Well spotted Ken. The brainless wonders in Scotland controlled by the brainless wonders in England.

  80. Ken500 says:

    Remember when the Labour list etc were happy to criticise Shona Robison. Karma. What goes around comes around. Comes back to bite. What a complete and utter shambles. The unionist Parties in meltdown. It couldn’t happen to a worse bunch.

  81. Petra says:

    Thanks for your reply Thepnr, however I reckon that the AUOB organisers should be getting info out there to avoid all of this confusion. Cut down on the potential protests they’ve been talking about. In some instances seem to be encouraging. No doubt the Police will keep everyone right on the day.

  82. Ken500 says:

    Scottish Tory comment. ‘A bewildering and ridiculous political farce’. Even worse. They should know.

  83. Ken500 says:

    Just go on the March please and thanks. Especially from those who because of logistics, working, illness, caring etc who can’t be there. Just do it.

  84. stewartb says:

    jfngw @9:48 pm

    Many thanks for the link (below) to the Twitter thread on Cole-Hamilton’s views on how we in Scotland must accept subordination to what a majority in big England decides. Probably no surprise here but useful for the record to have his views captured so succinctly.

    And this is the man I’ve heard it said is Willie Rennie’s preferred candidate to take over from him as Lib Dem ‘leader’ in Scotland – can this really be so? Can the Lib Dems really go from bad to even worse? Whatever happened to the legacy of the Liberal Party, Jo Grimond and Home Rule?

    When considering the state of the Lib Dem’s current Unionist/British Nationalist position – indistinguishable as it is from the Tories – its worthwhile reading this from WoS published in 2013 ( It includes this about Grimond:

    ‘At a ceremony in Orkney in May this year to mark the centenary of Scottish party icon Jo Grimond’s birth, David Steel quoted from Grimond’s 1983 book ‘A Personal Manifesto’:

    “I do not like the word devolution as it has come to be called. It implies that power rests at Westminster, from which centre some may be graciously devolved. I would rather begin by assuming that power should rest with the people who entrust it to their representatives to discharge the essential tasks of government. Once we accept that the Scots and the Welsh are nations, then we must accord them parliaments which have all the normal powers of government, except for those THAT THEY DELEGATE (my emphasis) to the United Kingdom government or the EEC.”’

    How things have changed!!

  85. Marie Clark says:

    Dearie me, you go out for the evening and all the fun begins. Labour in Scotland imploding big time. I see on the Revs twitter that someone, tongue in cheek i think, blames it all on rev Stu. It’s the Kez faction getting sacked by Richard who.

    My, my, the msm are going to go big time agin the useless Dick who. Any takers on who will be the next SLAB leader?What an absolute bourach. Ah well, couldnae happen tae a nicer bunch.

    This is going to require lots of popcorn.

  86. Ghillie says:

    Thepnr @ first comment @ 5.24 pm

    ”Scottish public opinion on Independence basically hasn’t moved at all in the last four years”

    ‘That’s true’ says thepnr, ‘but it has hardened in particular on the Yes side. I have both feet planted firmly in support of Independence and no matter what the British Nationalist media throw I am staying firmly planted to this spot.’

    And I stand beside you 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Thepnr also says ‘The No side are a bit less confident of the solidarity of their support which is planted in wet sand, soggy paper and only manages to survive by a daily feeding of manure from the media and the BBC.’

    And Galamcenalath @6.52 pm

    ‘So starting somewhere around 50% is brilliant!’ 🙂

    I feel so strongly that the last four years have hardened my resolve that Scotland WILL be Independent.

    I, and I am sure everyone else, have learned so much and with it felt the strength of feeling and support for Scotland’s Independence growing =)

  87. Muscleguy says:

    The thing to bear in mind in all these polls is sampling, how representative are they? For eg if they are asking GE questions that will rule out all the EU citizens since they are not allowed to vote in it. They HATE partial data points as they screw everything up. So they tend not to include EU citizens.

    Then there is the contact method, landlines? who has one other than the elderly? We’ve just finally gotten rid of ours, all the olds in NZ are either demented or on WhatsApp now. So, I’m only contactable on my phone or online and I’m only signed into one polling thing. And I tend these days to be very suspect of anyone I don’t know calling my mobile. My blocklist just keeps growing.

    I only ever got polled, once, via the landline. I try not to give the mobile number to more than I absolutely have to.

    I have spoken to so many people who have changed from No to Yes. From my dental hygienist to supermarket checkout people (I wear my badges still). That I fail to understand how the polls have moved so little unless the sampling is seriously skewed. And I say that as an experienced scientist with a more than halfway decent understanding of stats. My wife used to work for a polling/marketing thing as well.

    Then there’s question form and order, there are all sorts of subtle ways you can nudge people if you don’t want to produce a poll too helpful to one side, especially on a binary issue like Yes or No. We have no idea of the pressures, overt and simply perceived which can be brought to bear. YouGov for eg are Tory to their core and I cannot believe they would want to give Yes any succour or ammunition. Also if you think the spooks don’t have their fingers in the polling companies you are naive.

    As for that XKCD example it is absolutely and utterly spot on. My youngest is finishing up her PhD thesis and we were comparing graph types in mine and hers (she has many more types than I did in 1993). One thing has changed in recent times, it is much easier to get hold of people’s raw datasets and run your own graphs and sample how different line fitting algorithms can give different results.

    Those family trees they produce in papers on how life forms fit together, the systems spit out dozens to hundreds of different trees with different likelihoods. Choosing which ones to take seriously is as much art as science. But at least that is acknowledged and these days they present several and in more in Supplemental Data.

    I’m not saying the polls are all that different only we really cannot know. That includes if they start showing Yes in the lead. So keep that mind if it happens. Regardless, all noses to the grindstones fighting for every vote until the polls actually open. That is the only poll that matters, if we are ever allowed to have another one . . .

  88. maureen says:

    For anyone interested who missed it, you can watch Black47 here.

  89. Andrew Gordon says:

    Gary from AUOB on Scotland tonight , one of the best and funniest interviews i have seen.
    One sentence articulate answers, interviewer ran out of questions and could not cope with his no nonesense answers.
    Love to hear BBC shortbread trying to tame this type of straightforward and informed individual, it would be a car crash !

  90. yesindyref2 says:

    @Petra and all
    Thanks BDTT, was busy. Seems clear to me, we might be on the march but we’re also general public, so as long as there’s no stalls or temporary erections, no problem with picnics. It’s what people do, after all.

    Yes AUOB should make it clear but perhaps they prefer confrontation, there are some who do. On the other hand Fiona Hyslop has the ultimate responsibility and though it could be a political landmine to directly interfere (imagine what FMQ would be like, and the media), she should at least post a tweet or series of tweets clarifying the exact position, including the ability to disperse afterwards and have picnics and count midgies (not so many on the east coast it seems …)

    Incidentally, if people have read the plaques on walls all over castles and other places, it’s good for finding out snippets of history that don’t appear in most books. And the tone of many would support my theory that anyone concerned with history apart from redundant archaeologists would tend more to be a YES supporter which, in turn could mean that most people in NTS and HES and others, are YES voters. So be nice!

  91. Thepnr says:


    Really enjoyed reading that post, especially the quote from Jo Grimond which I was unaware of. I have to wonder though if any modern day Liberals in Scotland are even aware of it.

    It doesn’t seem that way and definitely neither Rennie or Cole-Hamilton are either or they have just chosen to ignore it.

  92. Liz g says:

    Ken 500 @ 10.37
    Oh we’re all still going Ken, don’t you worry about that…
    But was just about to say haven’t seen you post for a while…hope everything is ok your end?

    We don’t need your personal details… just a short sharp straight to the point answer?
    So you think you could do that….LOL…

    Seriously though good to see you posting again…

  93. Street Andrew says:

    The graphs might not show any movement in intentions, but the nature of the discussion has changed.

    Much more attention now on how we do this thing than whether we should do it.

    Brexit makes Independence a no-brainer for Scotland whether Brexit is ‘hard’ or ‘soft’ it’s a disaster scenario for Scotland …

    Let’s get the f**k outta here pronto.

    If they can make Brexit work for England , well, good luck to ’em, but…..

    Nah ! They have no chance.

  94. Jim says:

    Imagine telling perma-confused Jackie Bailie she was getting the chop, the poor woman even brought her own sauce.

    I’ll get my coat…

  95. call me dave says:

    A few Slab voters finally twigging the reality that it’s only a branch office North of the wall, some going for good they say!

    But you’ll only get Scottish Labour after Independence if there are a few left to start again from scratch, and all welcome too.


    But see me…SNP!

  96. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 11.11
    Yes I agree… The only restrictions are stalls and a stage.
    The park will be as open as it always is ( except there’s a bit of a march,or so I’ve heard)
    While I can’t speak for NTS any HES staff I speak to are definitely friends of Yes… and for the record I wandered around Fort George a few weeks back with a back pack covered in Yes badges and not a word was said,plenty of knowing grins though!

  97. Thepnr says:

    That earlier quote from the Liberal leader Jo Grimond has got me thinking about what has happened to both the Labour and Liberal parties in Scotland.

    Historically both parties clearly supported “Home Rule” and none more so than Labour founder Keir Hardie. What’s went wrong?

    Labour support halved in Scotland in less than a decade because they failed to see that even within their own party there was substantial support for Scottish Independence. They denounced and laughed at the “SNP front” as Anas Sarwar put it Labour for Independence movement and have since paid a very heavy price in term. of support.

    Now the non-entity that is the current Labour leader in Scotland, Richard Leonard has had his own personal night of the long knives and got rid of Sarwar in an attempt to strengthen his position.

    I’m sorry to have be the one to tell him but he is delusional and has weakened it as now another 40% or so the party that voted for Sarwar will be acting against him.

    There is only one possible future for a Labour party in Scotland and that is to return to the beliefs of their founder and support Independence for Scotland. He knew way back then that it was right and today it has never been more so. Unless they do so RIP Scottish Labour you are destined to be consigned to the history books as failures.

  98. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says: 4 October, 2018 at 9:07 pm:#

    ” … Are you sure you’ve warmed it up properly?”

    Ah! Ian, that is a good question – but the real intriguing question is, how does he know it tastes like pish without having sampled pish in order to make a comparison?

  99. auld highlander says:

    See me, am for the snp,
    thanks to the cheating of the bbc,

    the twisted the truth and made a boob
    but i saw the real thing first on the u tube,

    the cheatin news readers tell us lies
    but the truth is out there if u use your eyes

    they turn fact into fiction just to please their masters
    but we all know they are a bunch of lying cheatin bastirts.

    when u see the light
    you will know we were right,

    then like me, you will be for the snp.

  100. yesindyref2 says:

    I don’t even think about it, it’s very sad what happened to both parties, though the Liberals less so. Here’s what should be their anthem

    @Liz g
    One in particular had my mouth hanging open, yet it fitted overall with what I knew about history. All is not as the “accepted” version of history would like us to think! I can’t say which to protect the innocent.

  101. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert Peffers –


    Which beer best exemplifies ‘pish’?

    Now there’s an argument!

  102. Thomas Valentine says:

    We are dealing with a generational shift. And it is towards independence. The timescale is so long that looking at a narrow 4 year period it’s hard to see. That’s good for us in one way and bad in another. Things will go our way but it’s a long haul and will also surge and dip. But we are at a fundamental point in the shift when minority opinion becomes the majority.

    When you are in the minority the majority is quite smug. You might well have noticed. As balance shifts the former majority hardline supporters becomes increasingly more aggressive and irrational. It is absolutely impossible for them to see things any other way. See the recent demands to ban referendums and direct appeals to English political activists.

    “The Scottish Tories are not England’s friends in Scotland” I’m not sure who said this but I think it’s true. The Tories here are a different social economic group with different motivations. I really think they hate the majority of the Scottish population. Yes the Tories in England seem to feel contempt for who they see as inferiors but they still see them as the same people. I have been told a lot of Tories hate aristocrats as much as Labour even when they get a seat in the Lords.

    What I think I am saying is these “Scottish” Tories, are more like Anglo-Indians. Cotton-Marys as far as our Southern neighbours might say. Perhaps that’s why they are always screaming independence supporters ALL just hate the English. It’s like saying “look we love you we’re one of you, but they all hate you”. Maybe the Tory politicians share something with many independence supporters, utter contempt for toadying wretches like Ross Thomson.

  103. Thepnr says:

    @auld highlander

    Sheer class!:)

  104. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

  105. Thepnr says:


    Hit the nail on the head, boogie on brother 🙂

  106. Robert Peffers says:

    For anyone who missed the link about, “Scotland, Rome’s Final Frontier”. Here’s the link:-

    I was made aware of much of the content first hand. I was very fond of walking my wee Papillon along, and around, the old railway that was made into a cycle/walk that ran along parts of the Gask Ridge. Just by chance I came across teams doing an archaeological dig on the old Roman Road and wall.

    Being a history buff I spent lots of time learning about the work they were involved in.

    Some of the people I met feature in the documentary. It does change the popular views of the Roman history of Scotland that was/is taught in our schools. I go along with the view that these Roman walls were more to do with customs and excise than as defensive constructions.

    As it says in the bit about Hadrian’s Wall the Romans actually preferred to face the Britons on open ground where the Romans had the advantages of better and heavier weapons and were better drilled and organised being professional soldiers. Also there is no doubt that the Romans operated a customs & excise system throughout the entire Roman Empire.

    One thing for sure this guy is certainly no Neil Oliver.

  107. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 12.34
    Aye you and me baith pal
    But I’m sure one day all can be said!!!
    And right soon… Yay

  108. Dr Jim says:

    Daily Records Davie Clegg is in a bad bad mood, his beloved Labour party has been made a fool of by Wings over Scotland and now his beloved Labour party has been made a fool of by his beloved Labour party

    His face on Scotland tonight was a picture as he was interviewed by help me Rona (walnut brain) Dougal on Scotland tonight
    She later “interviewed” a person from AUOB and managed to look confused at Independence still being a thing as the interviewee replied in two word gutteral sentences

    Some folk who know the man or even be his friends might have thought it was a good interview, it was not, if you’re not used to public speaking or TV, don’t do it, even somebody as dense as Rona Dougal can make you look bad, and she did

    I’m not knocking the good intent just the selection of the inexperienced representative

    If you’re going to be interviewed on TV turn up wearing something better than it looks like you just nipped out from the bookies, don’t slouch, and speak like you own what you’re talking about and not like you’re apologising for it
    because it gave help me Rona the opportunity to pull all the disbelieving faces that she did, because while you’re looking at what might be your friend and thinking he’s doing well the NO voting audience is looking at Rona pulling faces

    I really really mean this well folks, style and approach is important or we just look like a bunch of disgruntled moaning strikers and that doesn’t sell

  109. Confused says:

    the earlier link to the “watchfree” site to see Black 47
    – when I went there I got a bunch of popups saying shit like
    “your windows security is out of date … please update”
    – this could be a spam/phishing/nasty hacker people website

    then when I went back to the site homepage I got
    – 3 naked ladies, with their mamas out …
    – not that I object to “that sort of thing” but I was trying to get something serious

    Maybe its just my system – Windows 7 and Google Chrome – but something to be careful of.

  110. Petra says:

    The news from where you are … not from the BBC.


    Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp: ‘Why the coverage of May’s incompetence exposes the UK’s media bias.’

    …”News editor Ben De Pear added (tweeted): “The @10DowningStreet press office have granted @theresa_may interviews to 20 @BBCNews journalists during conference; none for @Channel4News or @5_News and there is solidarity across broadcasters that this is a dangerous precedent.”

    ”Then Channel 4 political editor and 2018 journalist of the year Michael Crick tweeted: “If Number Ten is not careful it could soon look like the BBC has become the state broadcaster.” I have news for you, Michael, it is the state broadcaster.”

  111. Simon Curran says:

    Couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve got a really long train journey lined up but looking forward to first AUOB March. Weather looks favourable. If in doubt, go. Hopefully it will all be positive, no silly sit downs or confrontations because that’s just what the Brit Nats want and would be counterproductive.

  112. Petra says:

    Nine thousand acres is worth £19.5 million and he, the Duke of Buccleuch, owns 217,000 acres of Scottish soil!!!!!


    Lesley Riddoch: ‘Buccleuch Estates land sale row could lead to breaking of fresh ground.’

    ”Is there a possibility the Duke of Buccleuch’s decision to sell 9000 of his 217,000-acre estate, might open up a new positive chapter in the vexed history of land reform in Scotland? I ken, ye widnae be haudin yer breath. But change is afoot.

    Last week, the Duke of Buccleuch put a portfolio of land on the market called Evertown, which includes farms, productive farmland, commercial forestry and planting opportunities near Canonbie in Dumfries and Galloway. The 9000 acres is composed of 18 lots on sale for £19.5 million – most hill ground is priced at three times its agricultural value and advertised as “suitable for forestry planting” and includes land with sitting tenants whose leases have not been renewed…”


    Looks as though it pays to be a right bast*rd.

    ”The Dukedom was for the Duke of Monmouth, who was the eldest illegitimate son of Charles II of Scotland, England, and Ireland.”

    ”The current Duke of Buccleuch, Richard Scott, the 10th Duke, is the largest private landowner in Scotland.”

  113. Petra says:

    Amazing, eh, that the Unions didn’t have a great deal to say about unequal pay when the Labour Party was calling the shots. In fact Unison did a runner and left Instructors in Scotland to pay their own way from Glasgow Tribunal to the House of Lords: with the 5 law Lords saying that this was unheard of and that the Instructors (who were getting paid peanuts) were very tenacious and brave.


    ‘SNP councillors hit out at ‘politicised’ equal pay strike in Glasgow.’

    ”SNP councillors in Glasgow say trade unions with close links to Labour are playing politics with a strike that could see 8000 workers taking to the street…

    ”But the unions say that after a decade of being “robbed of hundreds of millions, if not billions of pounds” no one should be surprised that their members “are on the brink of strike action”.


    Flanagan (and brother) another militant Labour supporter.


    ‘Scottish teachers rebuff ‘derisory’ 3% rise and consider striking.’

    ..”EIS general secretary Larry Flanagan said the blame lay firmly with Deputy First Minister John Swinney.”

  114. Nana says:


    Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee – 4 October 2018
    1. Article 50 negotiations: The Committee will take evidence from- Professor Anand Menon, Director, UK in a Changing Europe. 2. Transient Visitor Levy: The Committee will take evidence from Fiona Campbell, Chief Executive, Association of Scotland’s Self-Caterers; Marc Crothall, Chief Executive, Scottish Tourism Alliance; Peter Irvine MBE, Author and Founder of Unique Events; William Macleod, Executive Director – Scotland, UK Hospitality.

    No need for ABBA we have Nicola

  115. Nana says:

    Roadside stops have been held at Gretna as part of efforts to tackle waste being illegally brought across the border and dumped in Scotland.

    Ministers are well aware of this case, I’ve been told that its significance may be being underplayed, I had been told that the Government would seek to appeal the Court of Session’s reference to the ECJ, but apparently didn’t, or haven’t at the most appropriate opp this week…

    Daimler-owned brand looked into using Nissan’s Sunderland plant to manufacture cars

  116. Nana says:

    Brexit set to hit poorly educated men most, says IFS

    Brexit: breaking the system

    Hundreds of tonnes of human body parts and medical waste is piling up after a disposal company working for the NHS has struggled to incinerate it.

  117. Abulhaq says:

    It’s still the currency stupid…..SNP messed that up last time and probably lost significant yes votes by insisting on sterling which Westminster and its nasty chancellor said was not an option. The party had no viable alternative, not even the euro which was odd considering the SNP’s pro EU posture.
    If the SNP is serious about EU membership then the € should be the currency of choice for iScotland, if not, a currency pegged to the $, call it the merk, and be done with it.
    We could actually use the depreciating £sterling if we were desperate, very, very desperate.

  118. Ken500 says:

    Took a step back for sanity. Honestly. There is only so much people can takeof the total unionist Party corruption. Just let events take their course. Anither GE or IbdyRef coming soon,

    Don’t like some of the quabbling Or the unionists trolls trying to destroy the site, Take a step back till they are gone. The smirking dance humiliation. Fired folk up and infuriates folk. To get active again? Alex Salmond has been treated badly. He did more for the NE and Scotland/UK than anyone. A great Statesman. McCrone Report etc. The unionists and M15 out to get him. Disgraceful.

    Some of these major estates are up to their eyes in debt. They mortgage the land to the banks for a living. If land prices increase, Then the debt increases. Some are not economic viable. They do not produce enough. A land tax could put up the price of land. It could not produce enough revenues as a progressive tax system. (Supposed to be fairer) It could affect the whole economy, putting up houses prices etc. The price of food, the cost of exports, (Food industry). Reliant on the weather and good practice. Mad cow came from Alabama. Foot and mouth etc. Cost £Billions. Good farming regulation is essential and necessary.

    Land is exempt from tax to keep farms together. Larger farms produce more, Nothing is more important than feeding people. Basic necessities for cohesion. The EU was founded to stop war and starvation after the 11WW. That has been successful. Including better regulation and social policies. Quotas were intriduced to help preserve the fishing industry. Under UK regulation dead fish were being throw back for years depleting stock. Instead of using bigger nets, improving terms and conditions, Fishing responsibly instead of destroying the industry.

    Many people would be surprise the amount of debt many of these estates carry. Mortgaged to the banks. Making interest payments. Some extremely prominent landowners. The debt is higher than the value of the land, Many would want to sell the land off if there were buyers. They live affluent life styles but it is funded by debt which often increases,

    It would be more affective and fair to stop tax evasion. Even than a land tax and what it would raise, often it is what is located on the land that has value. That is why building, Development permission can put up the value of land. Tenfold. Not the land itself which in Scotland could be suplus to requirement. No one to occupy it. Scotland is one of the least densely populated countries in the world, The population has only increased since the year 2000 and Devolution. This shows how Independence would gain and help Scotland and the economy supporting people.

    Exception the Royals etc. There wealth is funded by public money, tax evasion etc, One receives £20million+ Pays £2Million in tax 10%. Then upheld as a major benefactor? They got fabulously wealthy on public money by secretly tax evading for years. They should reign it in and stop illegally interfering in Gov. Just ridiculous. Not appreciated in Scotland.

    These estates often need a second income earner ie in other occupations. Just to try and keep even. More land has come back through buy backs. Then was cleared by some accounts,

    Anyone can buy an acre of land in Scotland, (£5,000 over twenty years) abd put a hut in it. Under a certain size needs no planning permission. People in Scotland do not need to because there is a ‘right to roam’. People can roam where they like for little relevant costs. Much land is not arable to farm. More suitable to sheep, tourism or other oursuits.

    The average farm income is £27,000. Supporting several people? The owners are elderly – 60? Land will change hands through natural progression. Lands, farms will be sold off soon

    The reason why land has stayed in the hands of such a limited number of people. Is because of governance. Scotland was depopulated by Westminster Gov policy, The resources and revenues illegally taken to fund London S/E. To totally unbalance the UK economy. Some of the imbalance problems still exist today. A congested London S/E A depopulated Scotland, A UK Gov unable to govern properly directly because of the situation. Thatcher, Labour illegal wars etc, All depriving Scotland of legitimate funds and resources.

    The banks actually own or acquire most of the land in Scotland. If Scotland had a central bank it would be under Scottish Gov control for the Scottish people, who produce the wealth.

    The land has remained in the hands of such a limited number of people because Scotland was depopulated by centralist policies. The resources and revenues illegally and secretly taken. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act by Westminster Gov and Unionists Parties, The democratic deficit of the Westmibster corruption. Westminster unionists condone tax evasion because they are in on it. They and their associates are the culprits,

  119. wull2 says:

    I know the EU does not want to get involved in internal politics of a country, but May has asked for the EU to come up with their plan, this is mine.
    The Countries of Scotland and Ireland should be given a vote to stay in EU or UK, what’s left of the UK will get a 10 year free trade agreement.

  120. brian lucey says:

    asked this in a few places : from Ireland it seems quite evident (please show me evidence to the contrary) that SO FAR nothing the UK elite do will move the dial in Scotland. Some suggest that it will all change post brexit. Maybe. So far the evidence is all for a chaotic mess and still, no change.

  121. Thepnr says:

    @brian lucey

    “So far the evidence is all for a chaotic mess and still, no change.

    Have you seen our media coverage of Brexit and Scotland? Propaganda and brainwashing of the public. That’s the answer.

  122. galamcennalath says:

    wull2 says:

    Scotland and Ireland should be given a vote to stay in EU or UK

    I agree. It’s a straightforward and obvious solution.

    They key aspect would be that WM should stay neutral and not actively campaign to try to retain the UK. The choice of what to do next should be up to voters in NI and Scotland.

    It’s a valid solution to the backstop issue in NI. The folks there want an open border with the Rep, they can vote for reunification. If the opt to stay part of the UK then it follows that there must be some checks between N & S.

    It solves the problem in Scotland where we have made two mutually incompatible decisions – stay on UK & EU. Now there needs to be another vote to decide which matters most to Scots.

  123. winifred mccartney says:

    Dr Jim at 1.54 entirely agree with you – made us look like idiots, who can just be dismissed as fools – no wonder Rona could not take him seriously. Dress is the least of it – but you have to be able to speak coherently and confidently and mean what you say – posture and assurance goes a long way. Just think of the suited and booted red and blue tories who can lie to our faces with authority and without moving a muscle. Even the robot May can do it.

  124. galamcennalath says:

    Thepnr says:

    Propaganda and brainwashing of the public.

    Indeed. However, what is quite remarkable is that given the absolute deluge of propaganda of every type, Indy backing has held and if anything has crept up. We have been subjected to everything from intentional omission through to completely fabricated ‘news, from single issue election campaigning from BritNats through to ‘Apron’ food branding.

    And of course, this is also against a background of very mild pro independence campaigning.

    Just wait until YES2 fires up and starts rolling! 😉

  125. Ken500 says:

    Now for more disruption. The Labour listers are now trying to cause strikes. The Corbybinistas. Back to the future, The SNP Scottish Gov is desperately trying to expand and improve the economy. Trying to reverse Labour destructive policies. Labour devoud of any policies but the destruction of the economy Back to the policies of the Winter of Discontent, Three day week, candies, rubbish piled up in the street. The dead not getting buried. That is exactly why people will not vote for Corbyn,

    Corbyn stayed troughing in a Party for over thirty years while disagreeing about every major policy. Instead of going off and doing something useful. Now the Leader of the Party. Impossible. Blames the EU and migration for the low wage economy in Britain. Totally delusionally, The Labour illegal wars, waste and destruction. Caused the migration into Europe which gave the excuse for quitting the EU. Totally caused by the illegal wars displacing of millions of people and wasting £Billions.

    Europe has to pick up the UK mess costing £Billions. This has caused the low wage economy in Britain, Not the migrants or the EU but Westminster UK policies. Now trying to destroy the UK/world economy further. That is why people will not vote for Corbyn. Illogical. If he cared he would get a better prospectus or stand aside. Try and get a leader not corrupted by Westminster policies. Probably totally impossible, because of Labour/unionists destructive policies.

    Labour are in decline in Scotland. Trying to agitate strikes will just be another nail in. The SNP are trying mitigate the result of Labour/unionists disasterous policies in Scotland. Labour are in total disarray. The listers trying to agitate strikes will just destroy it further. It will not happen in any case.

    The threats will rebound on them. Making them even more unpopular.

    Most people are aware of what is happening, Labour listers just do not care, The only way to stop the lies is to sue them. They think they are above the Law. Ditto the rest of the Unionists Parties. The Union leaders had better be aware. People are watching them. Legitimate campaigning for rights of members is one thing, political interference is another. The members will keep rational.

  126. Footsoldier says:

    There is something seriously wrong at BBC Scotland as they are still showing yesterday’s newspapers at 9.15am today.

    Looking at the newspaper headlines in the local shop, with the exception of The National, the news(and it is definitely news) that Sarwar and Baillie have been sacked is not worthy of front page treatment. Given the potential ramifications in Scottish politics, this is a strange decision. Are they all working in cahoots behind the scenes as it is of possible benefit to the SNP?

    I really do wonder what is the purpose of Scottish newspapers or editions of English ones as they have become so partisan and selective in what they print or more importantly don’t print, that one has to search various sources on the internet for correct information.

    They are hastening their own demise by this behaviour. Typical is the need for a Sunday Herald and Sunday National which more or less confirms partisanship is alive and well.

  127. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Abulhaq at 8.29

    Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.
    Trying to revive a divisive unionist weapon as the case for the union evaporates.

    There were FOUR options included plainly and fully explained in the White Paper. These were described by four of the world’s most respected economic experts.

    The option the SNP chose as its preferred option would have been immediately accepted by rUK had we opted for independence.
    The Governor of the Bank of England has already stated that.
    To refuse Scotland’s sharing of a currency which is partly owned by Scotland would have lead probably to a a sovereign default and a collapse of Sterling. The Scottish banks are the only fully subscribed parts of the UK banking system.

    Osborne’s reaction was a LIE. He got away with it because they own the media. They obviously also own you.

    We should have learned by now that we should have pointed out that there are numerous options available to any country on its currency position and given out opponents no target to lie about.

    I know of no country out of the hundred plus which have gone independent since WW2 which agonised over its currency as it moved to independence. This whole issue is a damaging diversion.

    Economic viability is the major important issue.

    Whether Scotland at an appropriate time moves to its own currency or some other option is a matter to be left to an independent Scottish government.

  128. doug bryce says:

    ^ Mark Carney admitted after vote some kind of currency union would have been likely (*if* we have voted yes).

    FWIW : I don’t think euro is a terrible option. It works for Ireland. Problem is toxic UK media convinced the plebs that it is a failed currency. Historic exchange rates would suggest otherwise.

  129. Fred says:

    Buccleuch is a double duke, he’s also the duke of Queensberry. The duke before the war was a Nazi, himself & his brother attended Hitler’s birthday celebrations. The aristocracy was very largely Fascist, Redesdale, Wellington, Lothian, Glasgow etc’, not forgetting Windsor & his brother Kent. An alternative government in waiting, expecting a German victory. We should have shot the lot!

  130. brian lucey says:

    “Have you seen our media coverage of Brexit and Scotland? Propaganda and brainwashing of the public. That’s the answer.”
    Forgive me, but yes, I have seen that. And no, its not. There are dissenting voices. People, for whatever reason, choose not to buy/tune in/ read them. Its easy to blame others – my question remains. Why are Scottish voters not moving massively away from the union, so far as the evidence goes?

  131. Collie says:

    Dave M H.9.35am

    Re:Scottish currency.

    You know Scotland will probably go with what we have at the moment and so do I. But the average uninterested Scot will not.

    Outlets like BBC Scotland will muddy the waters and have these people thinking that the pound in their pocket won’t be worth a bean after we become an independent nation. That is just the way it is in Scotland right now.

    And come to think of it,,the Euro doesn’t seem to be too bad an option after Indy.

    Adopting the Euro and a hard border with England,,,sounds good to me.

    Start spreading the word.

  132. mike cassidy says:


    But ‘the fine art of self-delusion’ is spot on.

  133. Ken500 says:

    Scotland can’t adopt the Euro for a few years. It carries too much inherited debt from UK mismanagement. In the Eurozone members have to keep a set income/ratio of debt, for stability. Scotland could do what IR did. Peg the punt to the £ for a while and then join the Euro. IR joined in 1998. Done really well. Good growth. Scotland could do even better with the good resources. Scotland needs a central bank. Being set up. It seems to take a while. Why.

    Many Eurozone countries joined relatively quite recently.

    The London banks make vast amounts from Euro/£ exchange. An increased cost. Joining the Euro can cut costs and red tape.

    The £ tanking against the Euro is putting up costs in the UK and cutting living standards. Making goods and services cost more in the U.K. Brexit. Japanese companies are leaving, They were encouraged to come to invest for EU access in the 1980’s by Thatcher.

  134. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Can I repeat what I said earlier and underline that an independent Scotland will have a lot of viable options to choose from. The issue is a just very successful diversion by our opponents and we should not engage – to their benefit – in it.

    Let us not confuse it with another issue. To Mrs McGinty standing at the bus stop it is important that she knows that if she votes for independence on Thursday the pound in her purse will still be that pound on Friday morning.

    “We should have learned by now that we should have pointed out that there are numerous options available to any country on its currency position and given out opponents no target to lie about.

    I know of no country out of the hundred plus which have gone independent since WW2 which agonised over its currency as it moved to independence. This whole issue is a damaging diversion.

    Economic viability is the major important issue.

    Whether Scotland at an appropriate time moves to its own currency or some other option is a matter to be left to an independent Scottish government.”

  135. mike cassidy says:

    Euractiv site posting this.

    “EU negotiators see Brexit deal ‘very close’”

  136. Daisy Walker says:

    Very relieved to read in one of the above posts that HES have confirmed there will be no restricted access to Holyrood Park.

    That was my concern. Their previous statements indicated that access would be allowed on the designated road and paths.

    I completely agree that the misunderstanding over stalls and stage is unfortunate and could perhaps have been better organised a lot earlier.

    Ref Right to Roam/Access Rights. I set these legal criteria out in the last two threads in some detail.

    I would argue Holyrood Park meets the 4 point criterion whereby a Right of Way across the park exists. (It will not cover the setting up of stalls and stage – just access).

    Incidentally, 2 of the criteria are that the Right of Access is formed when a route is in continuous use (since time immemorial / amended by legislation in 1973 to a period of 20 years) by people going from one public place to another. By its very nature, an access route can in itself become a public place.

    There will be legitimate times and events whereby access can and should be restricted. In that event the correct legislation and the correct lawful body should be used and publicly identified (so that the public can appeal the decision). A business, charity or quango management team cannot fall back on internal rules and regulations to take away public rights.

    It was always my intention to have a cuppie and a bite to eat once we got to the park, not sure I’d call that a picnic, but whatever.

    See you at the march folks. ‘Piece’ and love.

  137. Ken500 says:

    The option the SNP chose was what the majority wanted. They canvassed opinion as usual. The majority wanted to keep the £ and the Monarchy for now. Scotland is perfectly entitled to keep the £ as part of the BoE set up. They have been putting £Billions into it. The SNP opinion was the people can vote to change it when they want. Put it in a subsequent manifesto for a future mandate. It was just lies and propaganda. Along with the lies about EU membership.

    The currency and pensions were just more distraction. Scotland pays it’s own (UK Gov) pension and share of the BoE. The revenues are raised in Scotland. It was just more blatant lies and propaganda. Scotland pays for (UK Gov) pension/benefits. It come from revenues/taxes raised in Scotland. It was £16Billion Possibly less now. Higher employment? Scotland raises £60Billion. More pro rata than the rest of the UK.

    £628Billion is raised in tax revenues in the UK. Take £60Billion away. £568Billion Divide by 11. (11/12 of pop) £55.5Billion. Then another £92Billion (is that included?) UK/Scottish Gov accounts. Does Scotland get credited with 1/12 of that £7.5Billion. Doubt it. The rest of the UK can borrow and spend what it likes. Scotland can borrow very little but has to make loan repayments on the rest of the UK debt. Unequal and unfair. (From the £60Billion).

    Support for Independence is going up. It is not falling. The SNP are still winning. Enough people are engaged and not ignorant.

  138. Bob Mack says:

    @Brian Lucy,

    As far as your question goes, there are basically two reasons why people find it difficult to move away from the UK. Research at Sandford University uncovered these reasons.

    The first is the basic primal and instinctive needs to survive and to belong. Survival can be better served by being in a bigger group ergo the UK rather than Scotland. Remember too that until fairly recently this has been reinforced by numerous wars and conflicts which required manpower from all over the globe to win. Being a smaller nation would have been difficult.

    Many Britons have a sense of belonging, and even when they live their life abroad they practice a British way of life. In times of conflict they will support their home nation. Ie.

    The UK.

    We have to fight these very powerful primal fears to make them believe we can be strong and safe on our own. We can provide them with financial,job,and housing security. The basics of life if you will.

    Only when we can do this will people begin to question their current loyalty to the UK. I have seen recent twitter activity of Unionists in N IRELAND doing just that and accepting a United Ireland may just be possible and desirable.

  139. Ken500 says:

    Currency is just a form of exchange. A name. What really counts is how the economy is managed. Resources used properly and people supported. More equality and cohesion. The most successful economies in the world are more equal, prosperous and fair. They are more cohesive, happy and successful. That is a fact. So equality and fairness are important. People are happier in countries with less division of wealth.

    Not sanctioning and starving vulnerable people or illegal wars etc. Investment in Healthcare and education are important. Not saddling young folk with £thousands of debt which will not be paid back in any case. (83%) Just wrong. Putting a burden on people. What is the point?

    Most of these countries are smaller. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, New Zealand. IR, Singapore. There is a list per capita. All different policies and resources. Scotland should be up there. Not far behind. Education and healthcare are important.

  140. manandboy says:

    Yep, 50 years ago in NI, a Catholic Christian in a mainly Protestant province of the UK couldn’t buy a vote for love nor money. There’s Better Together for you, right there.

    Arguably, as the Nationalists in NI were then, so also the Scots in the UK. In recent times, since the Indy2014 campaign began in 2012, England has been persecuting Scotland mercilessly, while claiming we’re Better Together.

    But at least Scots have a vote, so we think, except it’s not worth anything in UK elections, since what England votes for, England gets, like leaving the EU when Scotland voted to stay in every constituency throughout Scotland.

    Civil Rights? Not under Westminster you won’t.

  141. Ken500 says:

    Older people it is claimed will not vote for Independence? People will keel over and it will increase. That is why it is better to wait until the tide turns which it will quite soon. All demographics suggest it. Patience is a virtue. Better to wait a realatively short time and win. It will take a while to dissolve even after a YES vote. Gradually grow.

    It is surprising considering how many older voters campaign (SNP etc) and attend rallies. That’s what the Pollsters claim. Used to manipulate the vote. Maybe some folk are OK with the SNP in charge and gradual change. It is recognised older people are less likely to want change. Less risk.

    It is frustrating for many. The total shambles going on. Scotland has been illegally brainwashed for years. Left depressed and deprived by Westminster mismanagement. Unjustified poverty and no democracy. . Now being found out be good SNP Gov policy. Standing up for Scotland. The difference is tangible. Scotland is becoming a better place. People will not want to lose that. Especially if they can stop people being sanctioned and starved. Just disgusting. Welfare services are being devolved. Too slowly because of Westminster intransigence.

    There is one thing for sure May, Corbyn and Cable etc are not the answer.

  142. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thomas Valentine says: 5 October, 2018 at 12:45 am:

    ” … We are dealing with a generational shift. And it is towards independence. The timescale is so long that looking at a narrow 4 year period it’s hard to see. That’s good for us in one way and bad in another. Things will go our way but it’s a long haul and will also surge and dip.”

    That would seem to be the case, Thomas, but I’ve had a feeling for quite some time now that it won’t take as long as that and will not come from the direction many Yes and English/British nationalists expect it to come from. I believe that the SNP have something up their sleeves and it will come right out of the blue in a manner few on either side of the independence battle expect it to come.

    A bit like how a smart legal defence can stop what looks like a certain guilty verdict on a technicality that no one else foresaw.

    You must remember the SNP have a great many legally trained people elected as MEPs, MPs, MSPs and even local councillors. The First Minister herself is a fully qualified lawyer as are many of the Westminster contingent. They see things in a different light from the rest of us.

    Now as a wee schoolboy back in the 1940s I befriended an old semi-retired King’s Council. Like myself he was a great one for Scottish History and things I learned from him I have understood for most of my 80 odd years and always tried to pass on to other indy supporting people.

    When I started commenting on Wings I got pelters for pushing some of the things that most Wingers now take for granted but who didn’t get the idea back then.

    Like for example that the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms and not as Westminster runs it as a quadratic union of four countries with England the masters who devolve English powers to the other three countries.

    In other words the United Kingdom, formed by the Treaty of Union, has never been a legally unified country but has always been run as if it was. In fact, and you can find this out for yourself, it is hard to Google and find anything about the actual Treaty of Union because that has been suppressed and what you get is information about the, “ACT of Union”, as if there were only a single Act of Union and it was by Westminster.

    The truth being that there are/were two Acts of Union and they were passed by two still independent kingdom’s parliaments and were thus of no further legal use after they were passed and signed by the Monarch of the three country Kingdom of England AND the Monarch of Scots – who just happened to be the same person wearing two independent crowns.

    The point being both Acts of Union immediately became redundant because both independent parliaments went into immediate recess from 30 April 1707. What began on 1 May 1707 was the totally new Parliament of the United Kingdom and, as the two former independent kingdoms had to be equally sovereign in order to be able to legally sign the Treaty of Union, the United Kingdom Parliament was legally a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms.

    There is no legal case, and no legal documentation, to show tha, “The Crown”, or the United Kingdom Parliament that began on 1 May 1707 was the parliament of either the country or the kingdom of England and had legally sovereignty over the Country & Kingdom of Scotland.

    So if effect Westminster assumed for itself that it was the legally continuing parliament of England with the monarch of England legally sovereign in the, “Constitutional Monarchy”, the Kingdom of England legally became in 1688 – long before the Kingdoms 0f Scotland and England united as equals.

    The only legal argument that can possibly be made that this is legal is that, The still legally sovereign people of Scotland, accepted that the legally sovereign Monarch of the Kingdom of England was their sovereign superior – but there isn’t a single shred of legal evidence to support that excepting that the legally sovereign people of Scotland accepted it and allowed it to happen.

    Thing is, as the people of Scotland are still legally sovereign, (note that in the recent case in the Supreme Court there was no legal challenge by Westminster to the Scottish assertion of the Scottish Claim of Right), so, as the people of Scotland are still legally sovereign, what is to prevent a Scottish Parliament with a majority of SNP/Greens MSPs holding a referendum and getting a mandate from the legally sovereign people of Scotland to declare the Treaty of Union over? That means the United Kingdom will instantly end.

    However, a prudent Scottish Government would first of all make certain that such things as a Scottish currency was recognisably Scottish and a Scottish Central Bank was ready to go instantly.

    Now I wonder why Nicola Sturgeon seems reluctant to call Indyref 2 — or do I?

  143. Thepnr says:


    That was a LOT of reading this morning but I like reading anyway 🙂

    I wan’t to highlight two of the links, the first is for Schrodingers Cat as he’ll like this because someone has done the numbers for him with regard to a Pro-Indy party standing for the list vote in the next Scottish elections.

    Time for Common Cause

    The second is because I believe another General election before the Brexit date was possible I wouldn’t have said it was likely. Mainly because I just couldn’t envisage enough Tories signing their own P45’s. This article though, sounds very plausible as to how another GE might happen… even if “by accident”.

  144. Collie says:

    At the top of the Project Fear list held by BBC Scotland is,,a hard border with England, currency and pensions’.

    A hard border will be a necessity, the pound will be worthless after Brexit, so the Euro looks more desirable in the medium term and as for pensions, these will have to be explained in baby words to some members of Scottish society.

  145. K1 says:

    It ‘is’ known that people in general were not informed of the ‘truth’ regarding what leaving the EU would entail. By the same token this explains why Leave won in England, in Scotland 62% voted to stay in the EU, this number has risen in recent polls.

    There is a low information section of both populations who are not engaged in day to day politics and for whom what the Kardashians are doing ranks considerably higher than what their political representatives are up to.

    Particular high selling rags (still on the wane though) like the DM and the Sun are their go to papers…and what where these rags printing on the lead up to the vote? Where any rags and I include the Times in that description really informing the public of the reality of the EU, did the BBC, who claim to be a ‘public’ broadcasting outlet, did they inform the general population of the UK about the impact, have they been at all truthful in reporting the actual potential fallout of UKexit?

    Dismissing this as somehow irrelevant in explaining why more Scots are not moving toward independence, the reality as has been pointed out is that the trend is toward Yes, since 2014, the ‘base’ has not diminished, that’s nearly half the population of Scotland waiting for the trigger to be pulled on Indyref2, with a staring point of 50%…during the last indyref campaign in the face of overwhelming air fire from every newspaper in Scotland and every channel that filtered into people’s living rooms, it was back to back No. From a starting point of 25% approx, Yes gained 20% to reach 45%.

    Do you seriously think when the campaign starts nearing the 50% mark that Yes will not be able to capitalise and make more gains? And do you seriously not understand that this is why there is so much SNP bad and relentless undermining of the fact that people in Scotland do want another indyref?

    They, the newspaper owners and landed wealth from England, the BBC et al are playing to their low info base and ‘greedy bastard’ circa 25% Tory audience in Scotland to maintain the status quo. 3 of the most dirtiest dark moneyed ‘nae surrender’ Tory campaigns played out to make those wee gains at last GE and SE and of course the council elections. That’s all they can muster. Labour are barely surviving in Scotland and will never return to any kind of power again in this country, except maybe in an independent Scotland.

    Do you seriously believe that ‘propaganda’ doesn’t work? If it didn’t work why would they keep up the same relentless air cover 4 years later? If Scotland doesn’t want another indyref why do they keep banging on about it? They know if you repeat the same thing often enough people actually think they ‘thought of that themselves’?

    I’ll give you an example of how successful propaganda is in the Scottish context, there is a generation of older Scots, usually Tory or snobby Labour…people mid to late 70’s, who if you even mention Alex Salmond’s name, their faces contort into a weird sneer…they ‘can’t put their finger on’ it, ‘cannae stand the man’, they can’t tell you why. The campaign to undermine and destroy the reputation of the SNP has been underway for generations, and pre internet kept the population at bay.

    So why do not more Scots ‘move’ more ‘quickly’ toward independence? Cause most of them are still stuck in front of the telly reading what they were raised to read and only when ‘new’ information gets to them, via the ‘internet’, only when we engage with them and show them the truth and expose the lies that they have been told…only then does that internal shift take place.

    Sure, one of the more memorable anecdotes from indyref was an older man in a supermarket carpark who rushed up breathlessly to a car or van that was covered in Yes stickers et al, about to leave the carpark…got to the driver and said, ‘Ah stopped buyin’ the Mail and am voting Yes now’ or words to that effect.

    You can never underestimate the challenge to people’s beliefs, and how they will fight against change of any sort…you have to give them a reason to ‘rethink’ ‘review’ the situation…and that is exactly what UKexit will do…and that is exactly why when that trigger is pulled…we only need 5 to 10% of Scots to move position.

  146. Cubby says:

    Winifred McCartney @9.19am and others.

    The media in Scotland is anti independence. They are not our friends. Independence supporters need to be very wary of engaging with the media. Leave it to the professionals i.e. SNP MP/MPs.

    Their agenda will be to disparage independence. Look at some of the people the BBC invite on to their programmes. People the BBC claim are for independence but really only are self serving luke warm supporters. They like to invite people who they think will damage independence but allow the media to still claim they give independence supporters a platform.

    Be very very wary of engaging with the media – Our enemy.

    Scotland would be an independent country by now if it was not for the relentless propaganda of the foreign controlled media. They are only delaying the inevitable. Every day more and more young people can see through their propaganda.

  147. manandboy says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    “However, a prudent Scottish Government would first of all make certain that such things as a Scottish currency was recognisably Scottish and a Scottish Central Bank was ready to go instantly.

    Now I wonder why Nicola Sturgeon seems reluctant to call Indyref 2 — or do I?”

    Brilliant, Robert!

  148. Thepnr says:


    Great read, said it better than I could, I hope brian reads it too 🙂

  149. Bob Mack says:

    Just a wee bit of important news.

    As from today all health boards in debt, probably through bad management, are to have them wiped clean. They start from scratch with no chance to blame earlier regimes for failing. About time too.

    Another great move by SNP.

  150. manandboy says:

    I’m with you there, K1. Well done.

    Give the people play-dough and they will be forever putty in your hands.

    BTW The Kardashians? Must be play-dough I guess.

  151. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Ken500 at 11.24

    “Currency is just a form of exchange. A name. What really counts is how the economy is managed.”

    Exactly. Well put. They only get away with this scaremongering about currency because the average punter doesn’t understand what “currency” means to them.
    I was at a meeting once. I had very effectively copied two twenty pound notes on my printer. I tore one up and they were scrambling looking for the sellotape. Just to make the point I then set one on fire.
    Agitation ensued. I said “Where did that twenty pound go?” Confusion.
    Of course (even if it was real) it didn’t go anywhere. It didn’t really exist. It was a token, a promissory note, a fantasy – like most of the money which circulates in our partial reserve banking system. It is of course more complicated than that but it is not the “currency” that is the question.It is the economy and its assets.

  152. yesindyref2 says:

    Some item on the breakfast TV I think from what my wife says (I can’t stand it), that Brexit will put the price of fruit and veg up by £7 a week. Don’t ask me, but basic prices in the supermarket have rocketed the last year.

    Another thing that will be hit is pound shops, and discount stores, things like toiletries and cosmetics are often EU end of line or surplus stuff.

    It’s starting to hit home, and that is for all ages.

  153. galamcennalath says:

    Thepnr says:

    couldn’t envisage enough Tories signing their own P45’s

    Indeed. Much talk of ~50 hard right pulling one way and willing to vote against their own government, and ~50 soft anti-no-deal whatevers pulling the other way.

    The big question is … will any (enough) Tories actually vote to cause a GE and potentially cause a Labour win?

    Possibly, but I’ve thought it less likely.

    Alternatively a fudge on NI and a woolly statement on future trade might be signed off shortly and then put to WM. The question here might be, would enough Labour break ranks and vote for it to compensate for any Tory dissent?

    Possibly. You can detect May and the media are manoeuvring to argue ‘take the deal or it’s no deal’. Adding the obvious third opinion or ‘just forget it’ is what they are avoiding most,

    We will know more soon, I think. Complete clarity soon? Nae chance.

  154. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    I was astonished when I read that earlier, and yes, great move by the SNP. Clean slate, now get your act together, health boards. You only have yourself to blame from now on.

  155. Valerie says:

    I don’t often post pieces, but this is a very good analysis of Brexit, and I think quite dispassionate piecing together of the key financial factors, which were always the main drivers for No Deal.

    By Michael Cohen, a British Philosopher, who specialises in political and social commentary.

    I think it might be good to share with any swithering No voters.

  156. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Bob Mack

    re the health boards having the debt wiped clean.

    This will weaken any argument for privatisation – no? The privatisation argument always being, its too expensive, only business management can run it efficiently.

    I do hope they sack a few of the incompetents in charge who ran up the debt – otherwise its like handing them a blank cheque to repeat the errors.

  157. maureen says:

    Confused says:
    5 October, 2018 at 2:23 am

    the earlier link to the “watchfree” site to see Black 47
    – when I went there I got a bunch of popups saying shit like
    “your windows security is out of date … please update”
    – this could be a spam/phishing/nasty hacker people website

    then when I went back to the site homepage I got
    – 3 naked ladies, with their mamas out …
    – not that I object to “that sort of thing” but I was trying to get something serious

    Maybe its just my system – Windows 7 and Google Chrome – but something to be careful of.

    That’s strange, I use the site daily and don’t get any of that. Sorry it didn’t work for you.

  158. Jack Murphy says:

    Thankyou Poster Nana for your post last night when you said:

    ” Tommy Sheppard and Keith Brown on the panel talking indy

    Watch again

    Many thanks.

    An excellent evening, and for anyone in a hurry I politely suggest they scroll forward 24 minutes when Tommy Sheppard MP for Edinburgh East is speaking,”Colleagues, I want to take you back to two weeks and four years ago……….”

  159. Thepnr says:


    That was an amazing article from Brexit shambles, bit of a long read but worth it. I think it should be posted again on the newest thread to give others a chance to read it.

  160. freedo says:

    @maureen 12:56
    @Confused 2:23
    re Black 47
    For maureen: Be careful about watchfree. I tried your link and Malwarebytes, which watches sites I access or try to access immediately warned me of DANGER!!. I would suggest you install Malwarebytes, free includes 14 day trial of their pro version which monitors real time. After trial expires simply uninstall and re-install and you get another 14 days, or you could opt to buy. (I don’t)
    For Confused: I opted to search for the film as a “torrent”. Found a copy downloaded 1.9GB. Haven’t viewed as yet but opening scenes seem OK. You would need software to handle the torrent, I use Bittorrent. My download was from YIFI.
    Good Luck & keep safe.

  161. yesindyref2 says:

    Maybe Maureen has uBlock or AGP, and that blocks stuff?

    Works well apparently, too well for website admins, but that’s not a problem for the surfer.

  162. Confused says:

    Thanks for the information freedo.

    The popups seemed to encourage you to “update your security” by clicking on an offered link.

    – as for the 3 “healthy natural girls” it asked you to choose your favourite.

    Maybe you DO get to watch the film in the end, ‘cept you get a ton of spyware on your system as well.

    I can wait for the Netflix release anyway!

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