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Packing Scotland’s trunk

Posted on July 19, 2016 by

You can’t throw a brick at the Scottish media at the moment – however much you’d like to – without hitting half a dozen articles all repeating the same mantra: that despite the post-Brexit surge in support for independence, a Yes vote would be more difficult to achieve because the economics are now harder than they were in 2014, due to the collapse in the oil price.

Weirdly, almost all of these articles simultaneously insist that any new White Paper for independence would have to abandon the Sterling currency union advocated by the Scottish Government the first time round (despite there being little to no concrete evidence that it was a significant factor in the No vote, other than the commentariat all loudly agreeing with each other that it was).

nellie

The problem is that those two claims – if for the sake of argument you take them both to be true – introduce a whacking great elephant to the room, which all the people making the arguments are pretending not to notice.

swinneydebt

Because the Scottish Government’s position was that a currency union was the price of Scotland agreeing to take on a share of the UK’s enormous debt (currently sitting at around £1.6 trillion), and more relevantly the servicing payments on it, which cost Scotland around £4 billion a year.

An independent Scotland would have no legal obligation whatsoever to accept any of the UK’s debt, a position the UK government unequivocally acknowledged in 2014:

treasurydebt

So it follows unavoidably that should the currency union idea be abandoned – most likely in favour of a Scottish pound pegged to Sterling – then Scotland would leave the UK to shoulder all of its own debt, and start off with finances £4bn better than anyone has thus far calculated amid their endless lurid “black hole” predictions of economic doom based on not understanding how GERS works.

15bnblackhole

(Other factors commonly ignored by the “too wee, too poor” cohort include the fact that the price of oil has rocketed from $28 to $48 since the start of 2016, and the fact that a 75% collapse in the price only actually reduced Scottish GDP by 1% anyway, because a low price benefits lots of companies and consumers, generating increased investment and spending and thereby tax revenues, wiping out most if not all of the losses from the oil industry.)

brent2016

The simple legal fact that Scotland would not be obliged to accept any UK debt is not disputed by any serious experts.

mirrleesdebt

weeksdebt

Which leaves all the Unionists determined to paint independence as an economic Armageddon clutching at a whole series of tattered straws.

Some try the morality angle, insisting that it would be ethically wrong for Scotland to walk away from its obligations. But that argument was blown out of the water by the research of Unionist academic and economist Prof. Brian Ashcroft, who calculated in 2013 that over the 32-year period for which figures were available, Scotland had in fact more than paid its way in the UK.

Over those three decades Ashcroft showed that Scotland in fact ran up absolutely NONE of the UK’s debt. Contributions flowing from Scotland to the Treasury more than covered the cost of the UK government’s higher per-head public expenditure north of the border, and taken as a unit Scotland was actually significantly in surplus.

(If anything, the facts uncovered by the good Professor suggest that on independence the UK should make a hefty lump-sum payment TO Scotland.)

Next comes a spurious appeal to “precedent”. In fact every country that ever left the UK (or the British Empire) and regained its independence has done so without taking on a share of the UK’s debt.

But desperate Unionists sometimes try to cite the example of Ireland. Yesterday, one particularly strident activist quoted this passage from Wikipedia in evidence:

eiredebt1

Yet for some reason they cropped the screenshot to exclude the next paragraph:

eiredebt2

In other words, Ireland agreed – by negotiation, not obligation – to assume some unspecified portion of the debt in principle, but never actually paid a penny, and just four years later the debt share was written off in its entirety.

irelanddebt

Scotland, however, would be in a far stronger negotiating position than Ireland was. In 2012 the Daily Telegraph reported that:

telegraphtrident

A deal which kept Trident on the Clyde for a while until the UK found an alternative base would present some political difficulties for an SNP government, but it wouldn’t be hard to present an effective rent of £5bn a year for a small corner of a remote loch as a great deal, particularly when the safety aspect of rushed decommissioning or moving was factored in.

(Opposition to the nuclear weapons system in Scotland isn’t as strong as the left likes to pretend – most polls find more or less a 50/50 split, depending on wording. Few people actually anticipate a nuclear conflict, and the cost of Trident is a much more pressing issue than the danger of being a target in a theoretical war in which the whole of Britain would be effectively destroyed regardless of where the weapons were sited.)

In that respect, the UK parliament’s vote last night to renew Trident should of course be regarded as a major positive for the Yes movement, strengthening both the political and the economic cases for independence.

The final card played by Unionists over debt is the threat of economic blackmail, in the shape of the claim that lenders would charge an independent Scotland which had “defaulted” or “reneged” on its share sky-high rates for borrowing as a punishment.

Yet this argument is perhaps the most nonsensical of all, presenting as it does the laughable notion that international bankers apply moral judgements to their lending decisions. (And even if they did, see above – Scotland has an extremely strong moral basis for saying it owes the UK nothing.)

Lenders care whether they’ll be paid back or not, and Scotland is a wealthy nation with plenty of collateral and a demonstrably moderate government with years of experience of living within its means.

It would be likely that there’d be a small premium on borrowing, at least in the early years, but with global interest rates at record lows it’d be nothing to be terrified of, particularly if the money was being used on economic stimulus to drive growth, rather than imposing the crippling, self-defeating austerity that’s seen the UK government miss and abandon every economic target since 2010.

guardianosbornesurplus

It would be bewildering, in an even slightly sane or balanced media, that not a single “analysis” of an independent Scotland’s financial situation has so much as passingly considered the effect of a zero debt share. Edinburgh would hold most of the trump cards in negotiations, and it’s difficult to see what the rUK could plausibly threaten it with that wouldn’t also be a massive act of self-harm.

If the consensus is that a currency union is a dead duck – and that does seem to be the case on both sides of the debate, regardless of the actual merits of the plan – then an independent Scotland just landed itself a bonus worth billions of pounds a year. The ivory trade might have been outlawed, but that’s one valuable elephant.

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  1. 19 07 16 14:46

    Packing Scotland’s trunk | Stuff from the...
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383 to “Packing Scotland’s trunk”

  1. Gaelstorm
    Ignored
    says:

    I suspect it isn’t being mentioned at present, is because the government is waiting to see what happens next with Brexit.
    I guess that when Article 50 is triggered, and our EU membership becomes achievable only by independence, Nicola will detonate this particular nuke.
    Looking forward to it.

  2. Inverclyder
    Ignored
    says:

    Christ on a bike not this pish again from the vacuum that is the UKOK Media. They have no argument left and await the inevitable.

    Would be interested to see a detailed poll of the current feeling in Scotland on Independence and also on currency and Trident during this Post Brexit Vote / Post Fanny May Coronation / Post Trident Vote period.

    Must be at 60%+ for independence now.

  3. jimnarlene
    Ignored
    says:

    That enormous elephant was in the room, and Ruth hasn’t had a selfie; to use an oft used expression ” I’m astonished! “.

  4. Chitterinlicht
    Ignored
    says:

    Very interesting.

    Tick tock

  5. RogueCoder
    Ignored
    says:

    There are of course other factors in play with Brexit. A newly independent Scotland in Europe can expect to see increased inward investment and lots of companies (particularly financial institutions) rushing over the border to keep trading in the EU. Obviously most of these would be “brass plaque” moves with few actual jobs moving – but the important thing is that they would be taxed in Scotland, thus adding to our Scottish Treasury coffers.

    But the really big economic opportunity will be re-writing the tax system and shutting down all of the loopholes that Big Finance and rich Tory lobbyists have written into the the tax code over decades. The UK tax code is a jaw-dropping 21,000 pages long. The United States tax code is only 3,600 pages by comparison – and they consider that bloated. Making corporations and the rich pay the taxes that they owe is the way to get our public finances back in the black. Scotland is not a poor nation, it has been bled by these people for far, far too long.

  6. Kenny
    Ignored
    says:

    Well done Stu, Swinney also, for pursuing this matter.

    Simple soundbites work well with the public and “No currency union — no debt” sounds very good.

    In my mind, it is a win-win situation anyway. We cannot be tied to the monetary policies of our sinking neighbour.

    I would like to see English pounds used freely in an indy Scotland… it would be good for trade and Glesga taxi drivers could get one back on what we have all had to suffer for years: “Sorry, big/wee man, don’t take [English] pounds!”

    I was in Ukraine after it declared itself independent in 1992. Russian roubles and the new Ukrainian currency were used freely, people knew the unofficial “exchange rate” at the time between the two.

    In any case, it is unimportant what currency is used on the ground. But Scotland must have its own currency in which all taxes are paid, just to ensure we are truly independent.

    As the world changes, we can then look at the best option — I believe this is a Scotland open to the world which is equally comfortable with our own Merkel/Groat/Pound, English notes, euros, dollars, Bitcoin, precious metals, SDRs…

    Keep pushing this matter, Stu. It is a potential vote winner, besides being a very important issue in its own right and a plank to be ensure we start a new life as an independent nation on a sound footing.

  7. Marian
    Ignored
    says:

    The co-ordinated UK media campaign of disinformation on Scotland’s economy is the biggest obstacle to YES achieving a majority in favour of independence. Which is why Westminster holds back crucial financial information on Scotlands economy that would expose the UK media as liars. Sadly, IndyRef2 will end in the same result as IndyRef1 unless a way can be found by The Scottish Government and YES Campaigners to get across the true healthy state of Scotland’s finances.

  8. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    On reflection, I regard it a good thing most of England voted to free Europe of English, and Scotland of disagreeable Westminster rule.

    In terms of resultant costs, English taxpayers are mature and honest enough to pay for what they voted for. After all, they boasted they save a great deal of money being out of the EU. They must feel freer being cash rich.

    Scotland votes for a different model of liberty.

    Democracy will take its course.

    In the end, we are all happy.

  9. hamish
    Ignored
    says:

    A pound note is an IOU. I do not want a share of the IOUs issued by the Bank of England. Doubters should read the recent book by Andy Anderson of Dunoon – on “Currency”.

  10. scottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    The national debt in itself has a rather large elephant in the room. The fact that the bank of england owns one fifth of it at zero cost with blno interest being paid on it.

    I gave no doubt that when all is said and done the assets and debt will be negotiated. It’s really not a biggie.

    Wouldn’t have a currency peg in long term though

  11. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Pretty clear economic reality there. Tory twits like Kevrage here will still be wheeled out by BBC creep show raging away with their, you’re all dead without that UKOK “fiscal transfer” waffle.

    https://twitter.com/kevverage

    It does come down to tory BBC led propaganda though. Brexit’s going to be an interesting comparison. Planet toryboy says UK’s going to keep single market EU membership style access, will block immigrants and no EU member £350m a week charge. Will they fcuk.

  12. Clootie
    Ignored
    says:

    Today a “No” voting colleague – who I had given up on – approached me and stated he will be voting “YES” . The Trident vote had tipped it. I never thought he would come over. Apparently many things had started the re-think but that vote had … Done it! (Jaw recovered from deck)

    The relation to today’s article is that he is now listening to the currency argument etc. Once people start to become open to information they are very unlikely to go back

    During the YES campaign we often argued that we only have to win over ONE person each….back to that task please!

  13. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Must be at 60%+ for independence now.

    id love to see a proper scotland wide opinion poll 🙁

  14. Cloggins
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe the english pound is not the most stable currency to be pegged to, unless you are scared of deviant exchange rates. I would have thought a basket is a nice alternative.

  15. Neil Cook
    Ignored
    says:

    Good article, for me the following need to be addressed so that some of the older generation dont get hoodwinked again.

    Currency- what we are going to use
    Scottish Central Bank formed with no influence from Establishment.
    Pensions
    New TV channel dedicated to Scottish news
    SNP Politicians refusing interviews with BBC and SNP to appoint a Chief Political Officer for all interviews. This way they cant get ganged up on.
    No debates with Tories/Labour/Lib Dems, I know Nicola usually wins but media dont show true reflection.

    I would invest in an Independent Scottish Bank and would contribute to a subscription on a truly Tv/Radio channel .
    No posts votes

    Until this happens no point in having a another vote

  16. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    At the time of Irish Home Rule it had no big brother at the time to ensure fair play. Europe will be our “Big Brother!”

  17. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    Debt free? Sounds good to me! Who’s the scroungers now, eh? If ever you’re in need of a sub, London, don’t waste your cash on WMD’. ((((( BOOM BOOM )))))
    😉

  18. Scots Wa Hey
    Ignored
    says:

    There is a even simpler answer

    Before Indyref Westminster sought legal advice on Scotland
    It’s oppinion “that Scotland ceased to exist,on signiture of the union there is no doubt ” and goes on to declare “like Wales before it was absorbed by its greater nighbour”

    This raises 2 conundrums if you voted No you validated you agreed that Scotland is a region, which makes a mockery of a No vote is patriotic.

    But most importantly Westminsters legal opinion is that Scotland would be a brand new nation under international law a new State has no debt

    And with its oil regardless of price credit would be easy after all it is what most of the UK’S debt is secured against

  19. Mark Rowantree
    Ignored
    says:

    Unionists consistently muddle economic ‘fact’ with their own prejudice. Surely no rational person can doubt that after the events of the last few weeks that the interests of Scots will always come a distant second to their own sense of self-importance and nostalgia for an Empire that is long gone. The real problem is that England still believes itself to be a Great Power.

  20. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    I do wish Alex Salmond would keep off Andy Murray’s case anent Cameron & a knighthood. There are quite enough court toadies with the likes of Nicholas Witchell. Time to call a halt in Scotland on titles whatsoever, looking forward to the day when we have no lords Ffoulkes, Cardowan, Coatdyke etc, etc ad nauseum & certainly no Sir’s of any description. Saville has quite discredited the whole circus.

    We already have a hero called Sir Andrew Murray & he died for his country. Playing tennis isn’t quite in the same ball park.

  21. Vambomarbeley
    Ignored
    says:

    Pensions of any type that are paid by Westminster to people abroad are all ways at the mercy of exchange rates.
    I have s friend in Germany who’s military pension has to be converted from £ to €.
    So for a lot of people this could be a problem if Scotland is in a totally different currency and their OAP is still paid by Westminster.

  22. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Only the UK has faced bankruptcy – after the Second World War.

    It borrowed billions from the USA and Canada under the Marshall plan to stave off impending bankruptcy… defaulted three times on repayments – and only paid off the loan in 2006.

    History books opine that if Hitler had managed to extend the war a week or more the UK would have had no money to build more tanks and planes and bombs.

    The price for accepting the US-Canadian loan was the ‘special’ relationship – we accept USA foreign policy and nukes without question.

    (This has been a Truth commercial, and I endorse it contents.)

  23. Artyhetty
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T, sort of.

    https://off-guardian.org/2016/07/18/britains-scramble-for-africa-the-new-colonialism/

    Shhhhhhh, what oil, no oil here, no not seen any.

  24. harry mcaye
    Ignored
    says:

    If there is going to be another Wee Blue Book before the next indyref, stuff like this has to go in it, screenshots and all. That was the most impressive aspect of the Wee Black Books, the screenshots. Proof before their very eyes.

  25. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Good article. Doing what WoS does best, debunking propaganda.

    A couple of things.

    A aspect of where we take debt or not, is the considerable assets the UK has including a fortune in buildings and property in the world’s capitals. We are due our share, or compensation which could be written off against debt. We we are due to accept no debt, the compensation should be a lump sum.

    Trident popularity does indeed depend on how the question is asked. Even words like ‘keep’ suggest hanging on to something which is already there. I have little doubt ‘keep’ is more popular than ‘replace’ or ‘renew’.

    Also ‘Trident’ and ‘deterrent’ aren’t as off putting as ‘weapons of mass destruction’!

    There actually hasn’t been much public debate in the last couple of decades about what it all means. Watching ‘Threads’ should be compulsory!

  26. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Fred: “Time to call a halt in Scotland on titles.”

    Okay. Agreed … right after I get mine…

  27. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    Rev wrote:
    “Edinburgh would hold most of the trump cards in negotiations”

    Exactly, the most powerful participant in any negotiations is the person who approaches the table in a position which allows that person to walk away if need be. Scotland is that person!
    And even better still, the London establishment know it!
    🙂

  28. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    Kenny: “Simple soundbites work well with the public and “No currency union — no debt” sounds very good.”

    Aye. As horrible as the UKOK and Leave campaigns were, if there is one lesson we should be taking from them, it’s that simple messages work.

    UKOK identified currency as a weak point, and hammered it relentlessly with a simple message. It didn’t matter that the message was nonsense – to the uninformed voter, it sounded legit.

    As soon as you have to explain yourself too much, people assume you’re pulling a fast one. They think you’re trying to bamboozle them. Someone else presents a simple counterargument, and they think “they’ve managed to explain their point in much fewer words – they must be right.” It’s annoying, but there we are.

    Same with the Leave campaign. “Take Back Control” was complete nonsense, but it was a simple message, and they repeated it so much that eventually people took it on board and it just became whatever they wanted it to mean.

    It’s like the film Inception. You take an idea, distil it down to its simplest form, and then try and implant that in people’s minds and let their own brains do the hard work. That’s what we need to do next time.

    I don’t think people vote for change until they feel the risk of that change potentially going wrong is lower than the risk of keeping the status quo. So we need to make people realise that staying with the UK will harm Scotland.

    In 2014, people felt like the UK was a ship floating along calm seas, and the Yes campaign was going “see that island over there? There are great riches to be found if we just go in this wee dinghy marked “independence”. Folk went “nah, nice idea, but there might not be riches, so I’ll just stay on the ship, thanks. Even though it’s a bit shit.”

    This time, we need them to realise the great ship Britannia is going down, and independence is a lifeboat to shore. The lifeboat may or may not make it, but we’re sure as hell going down if we stay on the sinking ship.

    So the message is simple: “the UK is fucked.” We implant that in people’s heads, and their brains will do the rest. “The UK is fucked – better get on the lifeboat.”

    That can’t be done if we repeat the currency union plan. You don’t join a currency union with a country that is fucked. You get the hell away from it, as fast as you can. A separate currency is the only way to go this time.

  29. Grant
    Ignored
    says:

    Daft laddy question.

    Most personal debt is in the form of mortgages to nominally English banks.

    Would this debt be written off, or at the least not enforceable?
    Or the debt pegged to another currency?

  30. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    Great dissection Rev, as always.

    What’s depressing though, is the shear boneheaded intransigence of unionists beating this drum. Everything seen through the Westminster and unionist perspective right or wrong. (mainly wrong)

    They’ve been told what to think by the usual suspects and without so much as a pause for thought, come to the conclusion that the population of a country as rich as Scotland haven’t a snowball’s chance of managing their own affairs.

    Our country is literally loaded, wealthy beyond the dreams of wossiname, fiscally well endowed and otherwise flush. That wealth to this date has been misappropriated, mishandled, massively badly distributed and in some instances downright thieved, but we are still well capable of generating enormous income. More than enough to care for the needs of Scotland’s population.

    The question, after the past 23 months and all that has transpired, is do we really feel like continuing to contribute to the ongoing train wreck that is ‘better togetherness UK’?

    What’s it going to take for folk to say enough is enough.

    Its time to make a distinction I reckon. The unionists described above the line will NEVER be convinced on the abilities and potential of the Scottish electorate. They are UNION RIGHT OR WRONG. If the xenophobic and isolationist driven Bexit campagn, the damning Chilcot report, the Trident vote and their own actions toward their fellow Scots still leave them convinced the political union is still as good as it gets? Then they are more to be pitied than despised.

    No voters however are a different kettle of fish. Being a no voter did NOT make you a unionist, that requires an ideological viewpoint. Being a NO voter last time out merely required you believed independence but not yet, or fear for your personal economy. Perhaps a degree of caution or uncertainty, a general lack of national confidence, or maybe you were one of those folks who believed the EU assurances of BT. Maybe you simply wanted to give the union one more chance to come good. A dozen reasons that had nothing to do with the ideological view that Scotland amongst all the nations of the earth is singularly incapable of… anything.

    Those are the votes we need and want. They are the people we need and want. Now more than ever, make sure that hand is out.

  31. Colin Rippey
    Ignored
    says:

    So…you’ve chopped off £4b from the defecit as defined by GERS, you can quickly (as per previous articles on this site) also chop off about another £1.5b from defence spending.

    Where does that leave an iScotland in terms of “the difference between revenue and expenditure”. £8b? £7b?

    What would be the plan to bridge that gap?

    Tax increases? Spending cuts? Government borrowing? Economic unicorns?

    An iScotland would have a strong economy, revenue per capita at least as much as rUK. But here you are again in perhaps the most ironic article you’ve ever written trying to hide the real elephant in the room with another. A short to medium term adjustment to expenditure would *have* to happen, just admit it, you’ll feel so much better for it.

    But really, why would a cut in expenditure even matter, if it took 5 years to get revenue and expenditure closer together would that be too big a price to pay for independence? Would any of you yesperados really care?

    I’m sure it won’t matter in whatever debates take place next year when it’s Ruth Davidson vs Nicola Sturgeon and Davidson is screaming away “your own government’s figures tell us there’s a big giant defecit” as it’s a Tory saying it…no one cares what Torys say.

    We’ll once again hear the immortal phrase of “too wee, too poor, too stupid” coming out of an SNP politician’s mouth (as it is the SNP who coined the phrase, no one else has).

    So by all means continue this meme of “no currency no debt” as there’s absolutely no chance of a currency union, an iScotland will be starting life trying to negotiate a trade deal with its biggest (by a country mile) trading partner after having told them “we’re not taking on any debt from you lot, but would you mind allowing us to trade with you, pretty please”.

    It’ll be Alex Salmond “negotiating” with Boris Johnson, the political wet dream for all of you as it’s the theatre you crave, not the substance.

    I look forward to an iScotland slashing corporation tax down to the bone in a attempt to “attract inward investment”, it’ll certainly help everyone who pays corporation tax.

  32. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    ot soz
    this cf is stalling, please contribute and re post on social media

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/10-000-more-flags-for-yes#/comments

  33. Marcia
    Ignored
    says:

    Very interesting scenario. Westminster will be mooching for money from us.

  34. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Ruth’s in Faslane at the moment getting her photy taken sitting on a Submarine

    I think it’s called “The Massive Johnson” Hirsute Class

  35. scottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    @Grant
    No its a very good question. Consider first what loans are. They are demand deposits created by banks when they lend. They are created out of nothing. Again that might be a negotiation item between scotgov and banks wanting to operate here. So scotgov might say right all loan repayments are in scot pounds. Of course they might not be able to do that with all banks.
    It could be of course that we earn in scot £ and just continue to pay personal loans in gbp.
    The exchange rate may help us or not on any given month- assuming scot pound was a floating currency.
    I used to be paid in euros in my last job and I know a few folk who are just now.
    So the world would collapse but it is a good question.

  36. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Neil Cook.

    You mentioned,
    “New TV channel dedicated to Scottish news”

    This idea came to me last night, while watching Channel 4 News. BBC Scotland is under the umbrella of the BBC, a public service broadcaster. Channel 4, which also runs S4C in Wales, is a public service broadcaster.

    “Although largely commercially self-funded, it is ultimately publicly owned; originally a subsidiary of the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA),[1] the station is now owned and operated by Channel Four Television Corporation, a public corporation of the Department for Culture, Media & Sport,[2] which was established in 1990 and came into operation in 1993. With the conversion of the Wenvoe transmitter group in Wales to digital on 31 March 2010, Channel 4 became a UK-wide TV channel for the first time.”

    That’s from:-
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_4

    So, why could “Channel 4 Scotland” not be set up, with its own management, to decide which programming is taken from Channel 4 and which is locally produced? That could give an outlet for a “Scottish 6”, without any reference to the BBC. It could buy in programmes from wherever, if it was thought advertisers would pay for slots (Outlander?).

    Daft idea?

  37. Ryan
    Ignored
    says:

    I couldn’t bear another no result. The thought of my grandkids shackled to to this unelected mess makes me sick to the core. Time to take our country back its been far too long lets end this cancer together.

  38. scottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry last sentence should have read “wouldn’t collapse”!

  39. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    If Westminster is absolutely determined to remain deaf, dumb, and blind to what is happening here in Scotland, and that is pretty much the only genuine conclusion you can charitably come to, then we would be very unwise if we did not recognise it as a warning. Brexit is proof that Westminster will run the good ship UK aground just for the bragging rights.

    It is quite possible we will wake up one morning with Scottish Independence a living reality, and a foreign Westminster Government with a fleet of nuclear subs stationed in Scottish territory with absolutely no strategic forward planning for what happens next.

    We will probably still have the BBC poisoning our airwaves, but only until a way can be found to jam it, or stop it broadcasting it’s shrill anti Scottish propaganda. This time there threatens to be an absense of strategic planning from our side. Once the BBC has its guns spiked, what exactly will we be broadcasting to fill the void? That void might come upon us quickly. White noise may indeed be preferable to the BBC’s black propaganda, but a seamless transition to sovereign transmission is going to require a great deal of preparatory work which should already be underway.

    If that Scottish network was ready a few months prior to any Independence referendum, then so much the better.

    There are now growing calls for a new YES campaign, but a different YES campaign. The software should be familiar and user friendly just like before, but the game engine needs a massive upgrade and the hardware needs to be of much tougher stuff.

    I think Nicola needs to play hardball, and leave Westminster in no doubt whatsoever that they are dealing with a sovereign independent country in everything but name and present seat of government, and that sophistry, arrogant denial and disingenuous slight of hand will only sour the relations between the emergent nations of Scotland and England for generations.

    Reign in your BBC, and let both our nations enter the next chapter of our history as neighbours and strong modern democracies who can have their futures determined by objective realities unfettered by media hysteria. Let us be giants and watch the sunrise together in friendship, not ogres who miss the dawn because we can’t risk taking our eyes off each other.

    Play fair, gain a grateful sovereign ally, or con us again and lose everything, including the dog.

    Scottish independence IS going to happen. What we are bargaining for is just the flavour of future relations between our two nations. Everything else is more or less set.

    First time around, it was a personal joy to me that YES was so much more than the corporate image for the SNP. I don’t know. Something has changed. I still feel the same way about the SNP, but just like YES aimed to be bigger than the SNP, its kinda the way I see Nicola too. Nicola is bigger than the SNP, and bigger even than politics. Nicola doesn’t speak for Scotland, she speaks as Scotland, and I cannot imagine our YES2 campaign being run any better by anyone else.

    Come on Nicola. Let’s get this thing done.

  40. Tony Little
    Ignored
    says:

    Re the state of Scotland’s economy.

    How realistic is it to engage some ‘forensic accountants’ to pour over the GERS figures for the last decade together with the information often presented by trade organisations etc. and try to assess the REAL state of Scotland’s economy?

    OK, I accept that this may be creating a hostage to fortune, but at least we would then have a debate based on some sound financial basis rather than the mythological statements from “respected” and “independent” institutions, usually linked directly or indirectly to the Establishment.

  41. Mike
    Ignored
    says:

    Love it

    Dr Jim says:

    19 July, 2016 at 2:13 pm

    Ruth’s in Faslane at the moment getting her photy taken sitting on a Submarine

    I think it’s called “The Massive Johnson” Hirsute Class

  42. gerry parker
    Ignored
    says:

    Fred @ 1:41.

    Perhaps Alex is doing it because he suspects Andy has already been approached and refused one?

    😉

  43. ailsa craig.
    Ignored
    says:

    In schools, universities and job.centres they do mock interviews to help people get jobs. It is more than about time the SNP got their act together and organised a group of, say about 20 of our 56 MPs and drilled them mercilessly in the manner of the BBC attack dogs, with sneers, talking over and complete disrespect. Even hopefully, a bit of attack dog tactics themselves. They would be our ‘go-to’ interviewees.
    A taste of their own medicine would give the Beeb and MSM something to think about. When things get tough, the tough get going. The time for perfect manners is over. Otherwise it is lambs to the slaughter; the mcternan creep is poisonous; we need antidotes. Now.

  44. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Kevin! Thought this might smoke you out.

    “Where does that leave an iScotland in terms of “the difference between revenue and expenditure”. £8b? £7b?

    What would be the plan to bridge that gap?

    Tax increases? Spending cuts? Government borrowing? Economic unicorns?”

    Kevin while you’re here, can you explain what your “fiscal transfer” actually means please? And you cant duck back in to your well thumbed Dummies Guide to Economics book either,

    But you will:D

  45. Moureen macmillan
    Ignored
    says:

    My one concern after Independence us with the pulling and sharing of assets as well as dept, does that mean that Westminster have a claim on any of our oil?
    Personally I always felt Scotland should have been Independent even as a child. Now it looks as if it may become true, gosh I hope so!

  46. Jules
    Ignored
    says:

    Actually Stu, if Scotland started out life with zero debt, there would be no reason why we should temporarily pay higher borrowing costs for any debt than we currently do as part of the Uk.

    If anything, the opposite is true.

    As you say, interest rates reflect the risk that a lender won’t get their money back. If the UK had an accumulated debt of, say, 80% of its GDP, while a newly-independent Scotland had zero debt, the risk to the lender would be lower in lending to Scotland than to rUk. So Scotland would have, other things being equal, lower borrowing costs.

  47. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Economic historian has hysterics at WoS, dont like any back chat do the toryboys. And he’s jumped on a City AM news thing from George Kerevan who suggests Scotland cutting its cloth to fit etc. One way of cutting our cloth is NOT buying Trident 3, let alone charging England several billion sterling for using our beautiful Argyle as their nuke sub base. Its a great start anyway.

    If you’re still out there Kevrage, what would you cut to fit Scotland’s debt free economy in 2018?

    ((( Neil Lovatt ))) ?@neiledwardlovat 2h2 hours ago
    Right there folks, right there, SNP economics guru @georgekerevan admits that indy equals huge austerity and cuts!

  48. JPJ2
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey: looks as if you have failed to spot that the terms of trade between England and Scotland will be governed by an agreement between the EU and rUK and not on childish response to Scottish independence.”

  49. Corcory
    Ignored
    says:

    So we won’t have any debt from the UK but how are we going to trade with our biggest trading partner – rUK. If we are part of the EU and rUK don’t get a free trade deal where do we stand? If we don’t get into the EU we would have to negotiate a deal with them! How amenable are they going to be to that idea?

  50. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Heedtracker

    Mr Lovatt may want to read that piece in City AM over again. 😉

  51. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    Dearie me, that Colin Rippey chappie is really hysterical. One hope’s he is not unwell. One really does.

  52. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    The ‘Currency Union’ strategy in IndyRef#1 was always a risky strategy as it instantly became a ‘hostage to furtune’ with Wm saying “No currency Union”. (Even though they would have caved in after indy). For IndyRef#2 we cannot allow WM to have any hostages to fortune, any leverage over us. We need to present an indy model/package that totally sidelines WM and renders it powerless; a model that lets WM know loud and clear that they will have zero influence in the debate, that we are doing things our own way and that Wm can basically go and f#@k itself.

  53. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Also, also Kevin, assuming youre not a complete and utter tory zoomer like that Lovat nut, this RT of yours had questions that only a toryboy economic genius can answer

    Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 4h4 hours ago Gifford, Scotland
    but this project fear, it should have stopped by now

    https://archive.is/ieQQy

    So Kevin

    1. Why are oil expro companies expecting the Scottish tax payer to pay for the decommissioning of said expro companies installations

    2. Why are Scottish taxpayers expected to pay for the decommissioning of the installations when much of the revenue, approx half a trillion sterling, has been invested in England, English infrastructure etc

    BP used giant not Scots oil and gas fields like the Brent to go on to become the world’s biggest company. Surely that crew of arsewipes wont renege on decommission costs too kev?

    Have at it Kevrage.

  54. Joannie
    Ignored
    says:

    Even without the EU Colin shouldn’t be too confident that trade can be used to bully Scotland into accepting an unfair deal. The tiny, impoverished Irish Free State won a trade war with the UK in the 1930s, leading to the return of the Treaty ports and the waiver of 90% of land annuities.

    If the Ireland of the 1930s could manage that against a Britain that was still a global imperial power, modern Scotland should be able to hold its own against England.

  55. Colin Rippey
    Ignored
    says:

    @heedtracker

    Kevin while you’re here, can you explain what your “fiscal transfer” actually means please? And you cant duck back in to your well thumbed Dummies Guide to Economics book either

    Greetings heedtracker, you’d have to ask him directly as, not me. But it’s pretty much the vernacular adopted by the SNPs one and only economics guru Mr Kerevan, I suspect that’s where the term comes from.

    @JPJ2

    You must be from planet “it’ll be alright on the night”, the EU! An iScotland’s membership of the EU is totally up in the air, it could take quite a few years for that to be sorted post Brexit and Independence. In the mean time…£62b of economic trade between Scotland and rUK, fingers crossed eh 😉

  56. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    “Westminster will be mooching for money from us.”

    Aye, they’ll have to ask us if we could lend them some money at interest, instead of just helping themselves, and then having the brass neck to charge us interest!

  57. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Nothing from Kevin, hardly surprising. What’s particular barking madabout being a tory boy like Lovat and Kevrage, is their insane love of English capitalist economics.

    On the one hand, giant oil companies sucked NOT Scots North Sea oil and gas dry, well nearly, but their staggering profits are right at the core of many giant English private pension funds.

    Yet, despite this fabulous display of English capitalism in action, they’re all now screaming for the tax payer to pay untold billions for the decommissioning of their rigs.

    How frightfully English. Its not quite on the last City crash spivery, socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor explosion of borrowed sucka tax payer money but its still a fine example of UKOK capitalism in action.

    Mind you, if you stick in and be a good socialist worker like say Lord Alistair Darling, the rewards are there for you, red and blue tory.

  58. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    One thing is certain: the britnat media, especially the bbc, will seize on any economic-Project-Fear-on-steroids story criticizing Scotland and give it unquestioning publicity.

  59. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey says:
    19 July, 2016 at 3:17 pm
    @heedtracker

    Kevin while you’re here, can you explain what your “fiscal transfer” actually means please? And you cant duck back in to your well thumbed Dummies Guide to Economics book either

    Greetings heedtracker, you’d have to ask him directly as, not me.

    I am asking you Kevin because you use “fiscal transfer” all the time. Yes its sounds clever and scary but if you don’t know what it means, or your only understanding of “fiscal transfer” is, George Keravan uses it, you should STOP actually using “fiscal transfer.”

    But you wont. Keep on UKOK sticking it to us Kevin. You’re doing sterling work.

    PS, do you do discount for cash on Pedigree Chum Kev?

  60. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Crowdfunder to commission professional scrutiny of Chilcot Report for possible legal action on behalf of bereaved families – was at £2k this morning (7.30am), and has just clicked over £43k.

    https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/

  61. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Joannie

    Ayup, heard that one before. If Scotland decides to go independent the inference is that ALL trade will immediately cease and there’ll be borders so hard, not even oxygen will pass through.

    As for what will or won’t be a border, how hard it will be, what tariffs, what trade deals? That’ll depend on brexit negotiations at the end of the day in such a circumstance.

    There’ll be no need for any trade war, mainly because grown ups will be in the room handling negotiations. 🙂

  62. Bob Mack
    Ignored
    says:

    @Colin Ripped, ( intentional)

    You forgot the oil and gas revenues in totallity which will also bring in a couple of billion. Inward investment and Brass plaque HQ’S will prop that up again by at least as much. We are getting there are we not,
    I’m sure other Wingers will have more to add to that total

  63. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood
    Just chucked in my £10. They’ll meet the target in the next hour or two by the way contributions are going. How scandalous that it is left to the bereaved families to press for justice.
    https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/

  64. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Here come the zoomers again trying to pour their cold water on Scotland again when it’s their own country that needs a good wash

  65. Phil
    Ignored
    says:

    Very interesting article.It,s hard to find any significant flaws.The problem is how reach the entire Scottish electorate with the opinions put forward.Going by the experiences of the 2014 referendum,the BBC and other tv channels aren,t going to broadcast anything remotely advantageous to a Yes vote nor are any of the mainstream tabloids.

  66. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    This graphic about UK exports appeared on Twitter yesterday. (It may have been RogueCoder who tweeted it – I can’t remember.)

    http://i.imgur.com/2MBdcYC.jpg

    The graph shows the exports for ‘Unknown Region’ (black), Scotland (blue), Wales (green) and Northern Ireland (red).

    The text under the graph includes,
    “An example of this is where oil is processed on rigs in the North Sea and dispatched directly to other countries, the oil does not enter the UK and therefore does not obtain a regional coding…
    In 2014 the ‘Unknown Region’ represented £37.3 billion, almost 2 times the value attributed to Scotland (£19.6 billion) and 13 per cent of the total UK exports figure for 2014 (£287 billion).”

    Now, I understand that at least 90% of the oil and gas platforms are in what would be ‘Scottish waters’ after independence.

    Thus it would appear that around £33.5 billion of Scottish exports (post-independence) are not attributed to Scotland, at the moment. Surely that makes the GERS figures meaningless, in regards to the situation after independence?

  67. Albert Herring
    Ignored
    says:

    Anyone who still thinks national economies work the same way as household economies is a total fanny.

  68. carjamtic
    Ignored
    says:

    Yoons come up here with their boxes of matches,light a fire,then run away laughing,our FM keeps a cool head and deals with the incident,for her and her team,it’s just another day at the office.

    Continuous,arson attacks,by Red/Blue Tories over the decades has made our FM and her team,experts at dealing with most types of fire,most types of attack,they say practice makes perfect.

    The Brexit blaze caused a much bigger fire than normal,yoons not used to dealing with fires (only starting them) all panicked and ran away….step forward our FM and her team,cool heads and situation under control,(although still smouldering).

    Yoon response,bring in new team of arsonists,start lighting fires again,again step forward our FM and her team,although they are doing an heroic job,the yoons have started too many fires this time and caught in the prevailing Tory neoliberal winds they have spread out of control,it has become not only, a huge out of control,all consuming fireball,but above it,they decided,insanely,to suspend Weapons of Mass Dustruction and all the while the BBC/MSM continue to douse the flames with petrol.

    The Firefighters qualities of,Leadership,Bravery and Technical knowledge are tested on an everyday basis,they cannot hide behind,rank,desk or emails,but……

    Our FM knows,she has a duty to us,to Scotland,we need to build a fire break,this situation is well out of control,it cannot be allowed to spread any further North,to endanger Scotland,it is time to separate,to keep Scotland safe,safe from this raging neoliberal inferno,safe from these Weapons of Mass Dustruction and the twisted Red/Blue Tory fire starters at Westminster.

    Fortunately the world media,have witnessed all of these events (in particular the EU media) it has become clear to all,who are the guilty ones,who are the hero’s,who are the cowards and who are the True Leaders,the world waits,the world understands.

    Let’s go FM,you and your team,heads held high,you are our hero’s and we salute you…you cannot save those who have no wish to be saved,Scotland needs you and your team,more than ever,we need you now.

  69. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey

    “I look forward to an iScotland slashing corporation tax down to the bone in a attempt to “attract inward investment”

    Our iScottish Chancellor will do whatever he thinks is in the best interests of the Scottish economy and it’s people.The same as any other country,including your own country of profligate warmongers and paedophile appeasers.

    After Brexit your genius of an ex Chancellor Osborne intimated he would slash CT to 15%if necessary.If Hammond followed through with this we would not hear a peep from you since all is UKOK come what MAY on your planet.

  70. Andrew Coulson
    Ignored
    says:

    Very good article – convincing and optimistic, and an excellent case to unleash on the unionists —- if the argument reaches that stage in practice. Unfortunately, it may well not.
    I’m sure that Ms May’s stategy is to create a situation in which the UK’s relationship with the EU countries is pretty much the same as now — except that formally speaking the UK will not be part of the EU.
    She will then say to the Scottish voter; “Of course, you can go from the UK if you like — but there’s going to be no real difference between your status in the EU if an independent Scotland is a member of the EU, or if Scotland as part of the UK enjoys the very wonderful relationship that I’ve just negotiated with the EU. So why take on the risks of independence in order to achieve nothing much by remaining in the EU?’. And a lot of the 55% might clutch at this, even if most of the 45% think that it’s only a straw.

  71. Paul Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    We have already been through two project fears a third will just be ignored now. All the doom and gloom if the U.K left the E.U hasn’t happened despite all the so called financial experts saying it would be a disaster. Who would believe them now? An old anon quote comes to mind “Teach a Parrot the words Supply and Demand then you have a Economist.

  72. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey says:
    …”£62b of economic trade between Scotland and rUK”

    Has he ever found the published figures of what rUK sells to Scotland. Much is hidden,so experts would need to go through the underground tunnels to extract all the real data.

    I would not be surprised at a large sum indeed. Something that would balance the trade between the two entities, or at least vastly lower the difference. I have never heard Unionists talk about this, for good reason I suspect.

    So to create barriers would be badly wounding English companies who sell, and rely, on selling to us. It is very big business. So to do so would be stupid no matter what side of the border you are on.

  73. sinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Briandoonthetoon @ 3.53
    If Scottish Chancellor can get all oil companies and whisky companies to pay their proper taxes then our financial pisition would be transformed

  74. Robert Louis
    Ignored
    says:

    Excellent article. These are the hard facts unionists just cannot seem to grasp, if we do not keep the pound, then bye bye to the debt too.

  75. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    The IMF [much “respected” by the bbc] has just downgraded the uk’s growth forecast for 2017 by 0.9%. Westminster continues to screw up Scotland’s economy. Westminster britnats are brainless eejits when it comes to running a country’s economy. We will be well rid of them.

  76. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey: “So… you’ve chopped off £4b from the defecit.

    Why don’t you cut the masturbatory crapology and just post a bullet-line list of all the nasty things you hope Scotland will suffer in a lingering death?

    Be honest – that’s what you’re really saying.

    That way you can get on with your tosspot existence, telling strangers in the street why their shoes don’t go with their shirt, or your neighbour he bought the wrong car.

    I’ve no idea why people on here entertain your colonial narcosis. If you must obsess about defaming people via the internet have you another small country you’d like to demean? Actually, the Isle of Man enjoys sadomasochism. Try them.

  77. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andrew Coulson 4:12pm

    One big difference is we won’t have ruk’s wasteful spending on WMD.

    We will be recognized as an independent nation and treated as such – very much different of the way Westminster treats us. In other words we’ll regain a hell of a lot of self-respect. Some britnats in Scotland will always be political cowards but I believe most people in scotland will take this second chance of independence.

  78. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    This is what they voted for, this is it boys, this is War.

    “At least 56 civilians have died in US-led coalition air strikes near the Islamic State stronghold of Manbij in north Syria, opposition monitors say.
    The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said residents had been fleeing the village of Tokhar when they were hit.
    An opposition activist network said 90 had died in Tokhar and nearby Hoshriya.” !

    That’s not Nice !

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36835671

  79. Kevin Evans
    Ignored
    says:

    The currency union idea sat with me on the same level as keeping the queen as our head of state but after indyref I became a true republican. I want shot of that freeloading bint along with the pound now.

    I no longer want a queen or currency union.

    I understand maybe the idea of neither was too much too soon for a lot of people but I think now more than ever with the economic suicide of brexit we should forget the useless pound. It also gives us the upper hand in indyref2 if from the word go we state “we don’t want the pound or the debt, keep them both”. A stance like cutting away from the union and the pound gives us the upper hand and nulls any argument. We got far too bogged down with the currency union last time. During indyref I was sick and tired of hearing “no your not getting the pound” it was there best argument and they milked it constantly. Next time around just tell them when they say we’re not getting the pound “thank fuck, we don’t want to be lumbered wi’ that debt ridden currency”. I think you’ll find they will beg us to keep the pound.

    nevermind the fact there is something sexy about the idea of having our very own currency. We can call it the pound. Egypt has a currency called the pound. Same way Spain has the pesos and so does the Philippines. Or Singapore has the dollar.

    Let’s get out there and kick ass this time. Take the bull by the horns and from day 1 list what we want as our own country. Independent currency included.

  80. Graeme McCormick
    Ignored
    says:

    An independent Scotland does not require any taxation as Annual Ground Rent can more than provide a substantily increased public budget while also refunding a person on average earnings of £26500 a sum around £10,000.

    Such a change would not be affected by global volatility , will provide a real avenue to the abolition of poverty and make Scotland a magnet for inward investment.

    Our political leaders will determine policy to manage these changes but the idea that Scotland required to go through a period of increased taxation and/or a reduction in public services following Independence is not required.

    Visit http://www.conveyancingdirect.co.uk and click annual ground rent for the presentation

  81. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Les Wilson

    Pretty much.

    Folk who frame this argument in terms of leaving one market for another forget that people and governments want to buy and sell.

    Mr Mercedes Benz and Mr BMW will still want to sell to the rUK as will whatever distiller, engineer, energy company etc in Scotland will want to sell. Equally Mr and Mrs rUK will want to buy and sell their goods. No one will instantly cease to trade just because… big huff.

    That sort of rhetoric should be left to the more exciteable souls and meeja commentariat in search of a scary headline. 🙂

  82. Iain More
    Ignored
    says:

    I think somebody tore Colin Rippey a new one. Different hole but still the same shite coming from it.

  83. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    FMs birthday today.

    Who knew? 🙂

  84. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Scots Wa Hey @ 13:35:

    Before Indyref Westminster sought legal advice on Scotland
    It’s opinion “that Scotland ceased to exist,on signiture [sic] of the union…

    No, this is plain incorrect. If you care to read Annex A, the legal authors raise this issue as part of their wide-ranging review of the likely issues, as they were duty bound to do, then immediatelydismiss the notion out of hand. They do not support the proposition. It’s a neutral legal opinion, not a Unionist tract.

    It may be that Fluffy grossly misused that issue as part of his own shameful propaganda efforts, but I still need to see chapter-and-verse on that. (Any references gladly appreciated!) But there is no legal justification whatever for the notion, as the report makes very clear.

    Annex A is definitely worth a read for its careful review of the various historical examples of secession and the ensuing successor rights.

  85. Iain More
    Ignored
    says:

    In relation to having a new Scots Currency I am totally relaxed about not having to feed debt that wasn’t incurred by us in the first place. In other words they the Brit/English Nationalist Tories and the other shades of them can go and fuck themselves. I make no apology for my awful language it is how I have always felt on the subject and we should have been floating the idea of a new currency in the last Indy Ref. No more playing nice with them.
    Let Little England keep its assets like Trident etc in Ingerland. I don’t see why we should put money into a pot to prop things up that we didn’t vote for ever. Scots exporters wont have to pay a Brit Nat Govt surcharge to export to EU or the Rest of the World either like they have to do at present. Establish our own Embassies and Consuls and lets not prop up their hostile and less than Diplomatic services and so on. No more subsidising them.
    I am equally relaxed about getting rid of the Royal Parasites as well. The same goes for getting rid of the spongers in the House of Lords.
    Heck those savings just keep building up. Aren’t us Scots supposed to be thrifty after all, well lets give them the thrifty boot up the proverbial.

  86. Foonurt
    Ignored
    says:

    Thurr heids, urr burlinn lik peeries.

    Fur fuck sake, jist gee uz wurr Scoattish Independence.

  87. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Can any of the economics/financial/oil & gas experts on here offer any opinion of my post at 3.53? I don’t want to repeat the contents elsewhere (Facebook) if they’re a pile of dried out dung.

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/packing-scotlands-trunk/comment-page-1/#comment-2167578

  88. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Macart says:

    That sort of rhetoric should be left to the more exciteable souls and meeja commentariat in search of a scary headline. 🙂

    like bbc scotland?

  89. Fireproofjim
    Ignored
    says:

    Some Unionists say things like, “how can Scotland afford to set up armed forces from scratch?”
    Answer is simple. We already own about 8.5% of the U.K. Armed forces.
    That would give us a couple of modern frigates, a couple of squadrons of fast jets, about twenty helicopters plus an adequate supply of army kit. More than enough.
    The RUK can keep Trident and the carriers.

  90. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “My one concern after Independence us with the pulling and sharing of assets as well as dept, does that mean that Westminster have a claim on any of our oil?”

    No, of course not. They get the oil that’s in their waters, we get the oil that’s in ours, which is nearly all of it.

  91. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Kevin Evans @ 16:38

    Take the bull by the horns and from day 1 list what we want as our own country.

    Wrong. A perfect crack for divide-and-conquer to exploit. We had enough pie-in-the-sky notions the last time round to give people plenty of excuses for not voting indy. We should not make that bad mistake again.

    If there’s one lesson to be learnt from the EUref, it’s to focus on the fundamental issue: autonomy.

    Of course we must have a sound case on the currency issue. I think there’s a growing understanding that a formal currency union is a non-starter now because although it may have been technically correct, it was politically flawed, since it played right into the hands of the nawbags. Our own currency tied for a short fixed period to the pound for a smooth transition is the best option, I believe.

    You may have your various hopes for the future of an independent Scotland and I have mine, but that is something that should and must be deferred until the whole people of Scotland can decide freely for themselves, without outside interference.

    First things first.

  92. Colin Rippey
    Ignored
    says:

    @Les Wilson

    The Scottish Government publish ecomonic reports every year, here’s the most recent report for Exports for the year 2014:

    http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication

    £48b or 64% of all exports are to rUK.

    This report excludes Oil & Gas exports but you can find “experimental” figures again from the Scottish Government here (which details about another £12-15b of Oil & Gas trade between Scotland and rUK):

    http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/SNAP/expstats/oilandgas

    All the information on Scotland’s economy is allavailable, but of course this is produced by the same people who produce GERS (you know, the Scottish Government, the SNP, been in power since 2007) so everyone on this site is sworn to disavow these figures as being a Tory plot.

    @heedtracker

    I hope your Slovenian girlfriend doesn’t read these posts as she would be getting extremely concerned with the level of your fetish for Kevvarage – it’s not me

  93. Cod
    Ignored
    says:

    It would be bewildering, in an even slightly sane or balanced media, that not a single “analysis” of an independent Scotland’s financial situation has so much as passingly considered the effect of a zero debt share.

    I don’t see why anyone who lived through the independence referendum would be bewildered at all by the failure of the media to mention this. After all, they managed to completeley ignore it, or, worse still, lie about it, for months during that referendum. I remember writing screeds about it, and people seemed genuinely surprised by the idea, mainly because the Unionist leaning media had refused to entertain doing an a exhaustive, or even slightly decent, analysis of the risk, and the No camp were busy shouting through media enabled bullhorns that it couldn’t happen.

    Nothing the media in Scotland do should come as anything of a surprise, no matter how cravenly it panders to the Unionist presentation.

  94. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @schrodingers cat

    A fine example of the type. 🙂

  95. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Hey Trolls, away and tell Iceland they’re shite

  96. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey: “The Scottish Government publish ecomonic reports … blah, blah, blah.”

    The reason the tosspot repeats the same crapology post after post is, he’s exercising what he thinks is power.

    No one is accountable to him.

    Nothing he claims or repeats ad infinitum will alter Scotland’s situation now, or in the future, when it regains self-governance, and Rippey is smelling ripe in his coffin claiming the funeral director had to be a Scot because he’s in a pine box not mahogany one.

  97. KOF
    Ignored
    says:

    A question! Aren’t we ending the UK when we acheive independence, not leaving the UK? So, the whole question of the debt being wholy owned by the UK is a bit of a red herring in a way? Surely we would, as one of the two signatories of the formation of the UK, be liable for a portion of it’s debt? However, as said in the article, it could be argued that we’ve paid more than enough already to cover our share of it.

    Again, the ‘precedent’ of Ireland leaving the UK doesn’t have as much relevance as it would first seem. We’re not leaving the UK, we’re ending it, aren’t we?

    It’s not just the debt that is important, it’s the assets. Everything from gold kept in the Bank of England, to our share of military hardware, to historical artefacts of importance to Scotland in the British Museum, for example.

    I think that it’s important that we do take ‘our share’ of the debt (even if our share is nothing), so we can also legitimately take our share of the assets.

  98. Habib Steele
    Ignored
    says:

    Marion wrote, “Sadly, IndyRef2 will end in the same result as IndyRef1 unless a way can be found by The Scottish Government and YES Campaigners to get across the true healthy state of Scotland’s finances.”

    Others may arrive at better solutions than the one that occurs to me; we need to pay the media to mount adds which state, in headline form, the true state of Scotland’s economy and finances, and the tricks Westminster performs to spread the, “Scotland is subsidised by England”, propaganda. Who will pay for this? How will we pay for it?

  99. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    The First Minister of Scotland has sent out the Anti-Trident Petition below.

    Can I ask you to sign this, and share it with everyone that you know, and post it on every social media site that you can access.

    For those afraid of being involved, even when it means killing innocents and potentially everyone that you know, there is a tick box if you do not wish to have your details revealed on-line.

    We must back Nicola Sturgeon to the hilt on this matter.
    If we can get 100,000 signatures on this, it carries a great deal of clout and puts us in a strong negotiating position.

    Are you sick of your votes meaning nothing at every turn?
    The EU Ref, and Anti-Trident Votes both quashed and meaningless by a majority of War Mongering Ayrans in England?

    Sign up for Hope, for Life, and for the Future of Scotland.

    http://www.snp.org/scraptrident?mc_cid=7822341808&mc_eid=2ca6f3edb9

  100. David McKendrick
    Ignored
    says:

    Even if we did agree to pay a share of the UK debt we could auction off three submarines with nuclear warheads that are surplus to our requirements and see who is the highest bidder.

  101. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Heard McTernan & K on the way to the beach this morning.Just trying to shore up the Unionist sandcastle from the incoming tide and frighten the Yessers, worry not.

    Debt free, it’s as we were at the referendum, no real news at all for us that were tuned in last time. Maybe more folk will believe it this time. Let’s rid of the Union.

    Ho Ho! News just in on shortgread radio…Like I predicted last week the eagle is a chicken and wont cross the road. A non runner in third place.

    What a fiasco!

  102. Cherry
    Ignored
    says:

    Is it just me or did the Rev piss off a few yoons with this great piece! 😉

    Aww that’s a wee shame. Lots of dummies getting thrown about!! Lol

  103. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey says

    you obviously choose to avoid, as Unionists do, my actual question and point.
    Which was, ( for those who find such things difficult ! )

    What does England sell to us? what is a real proveable sum?
    It has to be a big amount, one that never seems to be talked about. Not simply from Gers which was conived by a Tory to muddy the waters in Wales, N. Ireland AND Scotland.

    Needless to say Scotland is the biggest of the three for English produce and all kinds of other items.Everything you can imagine actually.

    This is something they do not want us to know, and I can guess why.
    We need experts to go through all of what we buy from England to get a full picture.

    It would have to be substantial. This would substantially lower the difference, if any, between the two countries.

    I further said to create barriers for trade would also damage many many English companies who make a very good living from sales in Scotland. Further yet, I said it would be madness to do such a thing, regardless of what side of the border you are on.

    Not really difficult to understand. Well to most people.
    You gave no answer to that, that is the Unionist superior persona, right there.

  104. Famous15
    Ignored
    says:

    The remaining candidate for Labour leader is the Welsh MP Owen Smith who will be unable,rather than the usual abstaining,voter for his party policy. EVEL.

    Should there not be Scottish votes for Scottish Laws? Oh yes,that would be independence logically.

  105. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    A separate Scottish currency may indeed now be the best option. But remember and note all those scary “expert”-backed stories about how a Scottish currency would flounder, set-up costs too great, risk to businesses and speculative attacks. The yoons went on and on about it for a while, just in case the idea took hold.

    Of course we can debunk all the scaremongering that Project Fear 3 will undoubtably generate, but we must be ready with proper arguments before the negative media stories run out of control. One thing learned during Indy Ref 1 – scare stories have to be nipped in the bud very quickly and as often as necessary, before the weeds take hold.

    So, for a separate currency, lets list all the likely attacks and have our answers prepared. “You cannot use our pound” was deceit, but it did catch us off guard and we struggled to catch it before the vote. Let’s be ready for them this time.

  106. desimond
    Ignored
    says:

    Angela Eagle…in last few weeks she’s been played more than Pokémon Go!

    “I think its time for a woman!”
    “Please step aside for this man”
    “Ok!”

  107. ephemeraldeception
    Ignored
    says:

    @KOF

    Don’t mix up the UK state and its obligations, its successor state status, versus Scottish independence ending the Union.

    As the Rev has shown, your question is moot as we already have the answer anyway. Please check again the statement from the treasury that the Rev has added near the top of the article.

    Essentially England plus Wales etc by proxy will take ownership of all international treaties and national foreign debt (except Scottish council debt). Current UK treaties may need to be modified by the rump. Scotland will face the world afresh and have to carve its own agreements and treaties like an adult. Which I am sure we will do as it is a golden opportunity. Scotland though, must beware at all times of ‘perfidious albion’. Note:albion means Britain, but is really a synonym of England in all international relations.

    In any case the alternative is Scotland effectively becomes a region of Brexit England, nothing but a set of resources to exploit on one hand. And on the other: A North of England region for dumping anything South England doesn’t want or considers as unimportant.

    Scottish residents really need to wake up to the implications of a 2nd referendum.

  108. Brian McHugh
    Ignored
    says:

    Everyone involved and who supported this should be incredibly proud. Scotland is a little better because of it.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/updates

  109. Bob Mack
    Ignored
    says:

    If England plays funny beggars with trade with Scotland,they may well be doing so with an EU member. Bit risky that.
    @ Brian Dootherston,

    Yes you are correct,.I think someone posted on this very topic recently,either yesterday or today.

  110. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe they should have called down an airstrike on thon truck !

    Isny it interesting that the collateral from a days good old USUK death from above, numerically similar (probably greater) to Nice isn’t quite garnering a similar, even proportionate public response !

    The media has as much blood on its hands as those who promoted, and voted for Iraq2 and Afghanistan, and those who voted for todays illegal airstrike’s.

    Smart bombs. Oxymoron

    Always remember, (in the cosy warmth of Yes, it’s hard to really accept) that this is what those who will oppose us are all about.

  111. carjamtic
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland is an economically advanced society,rich in resources and human capital.

    We have the material resources of Land,Sea,Oil (90% of UK sources are in Scottish waters),gas,substantial fresh- water supplies,a stunning natural and a handsome built environment.

    “As one of Europe’s most energy rich nations,with a significant proportion of it’s wind,wave and tidal power,not to mention the industrial expertise,Scotland is ALREADY a strategic asset (Scotland also has the EU’s most important Oil and Gas reserves).”

    It is in our Human resource,that one of our greatest strength lies,one of the highest rates of participation in higher education in the world,Five of our universities are in the top one hundred rated,exceptional for a small country.

    At present Scotland has been made over-reliant on the relatively small UK market,countries such as Finland,Ireland,Norway and Sweden have succeeded in developing a broader export base.

    An Independent Scotland in full control of her resources,would be ranked 6th in the OECD list of prosperous countries (it is frequently claimed that we would have a deficit in our public expenditure,but,if so,this would be no different from most other countries,not least the UK whose deficit would much higher).

    Ten years after Independance (most likely, sooner)Scotland will be playing a positive constructive part in regional and global affairs along side many other small nations and people will wonder what all the opposition was all about.

    We all,will know,but it won’t matter,as there will be new routes open,to new opportunities,new challenges and these routes will give a major stimulus to Scotland’s talent,vision,as well as it’s social and ethical values.

    What is there not to like,bring it on.

    🙂

  112. mogabee
    Ignored
    says:

    Why don’t we, as in Scotland, have a competition to design and name a new currency for an Independent Nation State?

    I feel that may concentrate minds whilst giving folks ownership of said currency.

    *westminster may panic* 🙂

  113. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippley

    Sorry error in last post “we buy from England “should have been ” we sell to England”

  114. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey @ 2.06pm

    Take you at your worst Colin, and say for arguments sake an independent Scotland couldn’t balance its books. Who would be responsible for bringing Scotland’s economy to its knees?

    Scotland has had over £64 billion taken out of its economy over the last 32 in debt repayments which an Independent Scotland would not have required because Scotland not have any need to borrow money, because Scotland would have had a oil industry pumping wealth into Scotland’s treasury, not Westminsters.

    It is Westminster’s profligacy with revenue which has seen the UK’s National debt top £1.65 billion, and that is AFTER purging the Nations loss making heavy industries, selling of one of the Nations public assets after another, plundering pensions, manufacturing a ponzi scheme which over values property in the UK to an eye watering extent, turns a blind eye to off shore tax havens for the wealthy and subsidy from the public purse to top up wages. The country has been pickpocketed by the government every time it has gone to the pumps to buy fuel, and fuel where the price was already expensivd due to unrest agitated in the Middle East by the same Neoliberal warmongering elites.

    How is it possible for the UK’s ruling class tories, whether red or blue to credit themselves as anything else besides ignorant fuckwits who quite literally couldn’t hold on to cash supposing they stood beneath the back of a combined harvester threshing money trees. For 40 years Westminster has been CRIMINALLY INEPT at running the UK’s economy, and squandered immeasurable wealth which should have come to Scotland to safeguard the future of our kids but instead built that shrine to Neoliberalism, Canary fecking Wharf.

    How bloody dare you come here to snivell and snear at the precarious state of Scotland’s economy and seek to portray Scotland’s government as the inept ones who are responsible.

    Whatever we inherit from the UK when we finally free ourselves from the madness will indeed be a catastrophe. For the first time we will see the mere fraction of a miniscule percentage of the pawltry sum that is all Scotland has to show of what might have been, if not for 40 years of calamitous UK mismanagement.

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/revealed-the-accounting-trick-that-hides-scotlands-wealth/

    Scotland will balance its books alright, supposing it requires tracking down Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown for the gold in fillings.

    You tell me Mr Rippey, why should Scotland put itself at the mercy of these blood sucking vultures when we have a different path, any different path, to choose instead.

    Defend your Union Mr Rippey, but best not do it in my earshot.

  115. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Eebagum: “Why don’t we have a competition to design and name a new currency for an Independent Nation State?”

    I guess this won’t be the last time: The Ecky.

    I’ll be proud to pay for my round of beer with a 20 Eck note!

  116. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    My error above. The UK’s debt tops £1.65 TRILLION.

  117. Mungo
    Ignored
    says:

    Trouble with all this of course, is that I fear it’ll just be a re-run of the last referendum? Didn’t really matter that there were plenty of answers to the daily barage of bad news stories. If the other side of the argument is not reported, and it won’t be, then what chance have we got?

  118. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Tony Little @ 14:20,

    That’s an eminently sensible suggestion of yours. indyref2 eg. has been making a stab at it already, but a thorough-going professional trawl would surely be even better.

    I don’t believe it would backfire, actually. There are plenty of gotchas in GERS that people on here have already identified (“English” whisky exports, oil exports from unallocated regions, etc., etc.) and no doubt close examination would reveal many more.

    What such an examination cannot prove one way or another though is how an independent Scotland would likely fare into the future. But that uncertainty has now been outbid by the increasingly-tangible uncertainty of Brexaggedon.

    What such examination surely can achieve, however, is to destroy GERS as a credible underpinning of the “too puir” yoon media case. That is surely necessary and worth doing.

  119. Lenny Hartley
    Ignored
    says:

    Brian Doonthetoon, how’s it going,? re unknown region , had a look yesterday not all the receipts to that region is oil and gas. So not all the revenues can be attributed to Scotlands’s revenue. However large proportion is oil and gas.

  120. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    I knew the eagle was a stalking horse!

    And, darlings, Owen Smith is so normal.

    http://archive.is/Fg4MM

    And here’s what Owen The Normal wrote about the EVEL process in July last year. He got the ‘parliament within a parliament’ bit right –

    but makes no mention of the de facto English constituency necessity of future prime ministers.

    Or does he think that will not apply to the Welsh?

    http://archive.is/BeUxD

  121. Tackety Beets
    Ignored
    says:

    Stay clear o Miss-Reporting Scotland the Monklands issue is being portrayed as more SNP bad.

    I know nothing about even tho’ I dared listen to it .

    I would have thought the NHS body in charge have staff issues and are making contingency plans.

    At least the new Health correspondent wee Lucy Adams is not as vociferous as EB , but she is gonna have a bloody good go!

  122. Famous15
    Ignored
    says:

    I thought of the name SEURO for Scottish currency. A reminder of the debt we owe or not owe to our neighbours over the last 300 years. We could subdivide one Seuro into say 100 pahnds or sents just to avoid confusion with other currencies.

  123. Famous15
    Ignored
    says:

    Would calling the diminutive coin a SCENT cause too much of a stink?

  124. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Mike Cassidy: “I knew the eagle was a stalking horse!”

    Don’t you mean My Little Pony?

  125. sinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Tackety Beets

    Remember that the bbc is the glue that binds Britain together we are stuck with yoons as only those sympathisers will get the top jobs

  126. Fran
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks says:

    19 July, 2016 at 6:40 pm

    My error above. The UK’s debt tops £1.65 TRILLION

    And that doesn’t cover the £900 Billion borrowed to bail out the banks.
    This time next year we will be forking out £80 Billion a year just to service the interest of the debt

    Hope the link works, 1st time I’ve tried this.
    http://moneyweek.com/endofbritain/

  127. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    New Campaign Update!
    Hello dcelec*&*&*

    The ‘The People Versus Carmichael’ team just posted:

    Target Reached! 🙂

    ‘My little pony’ 🙂

  128. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    I see that Misreporting Scotland has a new English Propagandist on the show.

    Obviously there is a shortage of Blind Blatant Biased reporters in Scotland, with the majority of the population pro democracy and independence.

    Tonight’s angle is that Nicola did save an A & E Dept in Airdrie, that Labour had earmarked for closure, but now that
    they are facing staff shortages, like the rest of the UK but not quite so severe, up to 5% of certain treatments will need to be carried out at another site.

    NHS Scotland are trying to recruit, we have a better relationship with our NHS workers than the English, we do not suffer from NHS England’s Junior Doctors Strikes, we have not privatised 10% of our health services like England, but the new Diva of Distortion announces that “Not only limbs are being broken, but promises too”.

    The EBC at Pacific Quay should be in the Clyde, not by it!

    PS 15,000 signatures so far for Nicola’s Anti-Trident petition. Still a very long way to the 100,000 mark.
    Come on Scotland, Sign up and spread the word!

    http://www.snp.org/scraptrident?mc_cid=7822341808&mc_eid=2ca6f3edb9

  129. woosie
    Ignored
    says:

    I agree with posts anti currency union, royal family, knighthoods (I’m sure Andy Murray wishes AS would leave this alone, as he probably doesn’t want one. Unlike some “successful business” persons, he certainly doesn’t need one).

    Fed up with English mps continually talking us down, and with the nawbags who buy into it. It’s not them and us, it’s them OR us!

    Re trolls using multiple monikers, go and read something you’re supposed to believe. You’re wasting your time here.

    On a totally different subject, I had a dream the other night that I was granted one super power. I chose the ability to explode peoples’ heads. I swear I wouldn’t abuse it.

  130. kestral
    Ignored
    says:

    Here is an interesting point

    Every scottish note in circulation at the moment 4 billion is backed by an english pound note held by BOE

    Scotland’s money is actually a gold standard currency – although that is based on english money which is a fiat currency

    Who gets all that money if the scottish government decide to convert the existing scottish notes to be our currency of choice and turns it into a Fiat Currency?

    Would that money be available as a pool for lender of last resort?

  131. Colin Rippey
    Ignored
    says:

    @Les Wilson

    From:

    http://news.scotland.gov.uk/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1731&SizeId=-1

    In 2012, experimental statistics show that that the UK is estimated to have exported £60 billion worth of goods and services to Scotland and imported £48 billion worth of goods and services from Scotland.5 While exact figures on exports from rUK to Scotland are not known it is reasonable to assume that they are within the £50bn to £60bn range. On this basis exports from rUK to Scotland were around 40% of the value of UK exports to the EU in 2012 and imports to rUK from Scotland were around 25% of UK imports from the EU in 2012

    @Grouse Beater

    Maybe you should go actually beat some grouse instead of your keyboard, your level of response is schoolboy stuff.

  132. Lochside
    Ignored
    says:

    mike@ 2.21pm..as in the ‘Big Lebowski’…we’ll cut off your Johnson’…should have said that last night in the commons..

  133. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    @heedtracker

    I hope your Slovenian girlfriend doesn’t read these posts as she would be getting extremely concerned with the level of your fetish for Kevvarage – it’s not me

    Not very good divert Kevin.

    What’s does “fiscal transfer” mean Kevin?

    What does it mean in say the EU?

    But that’s maybe out of your scope, so what does it mean between the UK Treasury and Holyrood?

    We know your a bluffer Kevin. You should write The Bluffers Guide to Scotland/Project Fear.

    Anyway, me and Adam are right pair of sluts. Well he is, he used to be a vile separatist republican trot, and look at him now.

  134. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Don’t worry folks we’re winning this one by a distance
    The birthday girl’s just getting started

  135. Iain More
    Ignored
    says:

    Clearly the Brit Nat Trolls need some reminding of some things. Scotland has more than made a more than fair contribution to a rotten corrupt Britain over the last 300 years. That contribution came in more than just cash or gold but in talent genius and blood. We owe the British/English nothing as far as I am concerned. Keep yer assets and yer firkin Pound, we more than paid for them in money, blood, genius and talent. Enough is enough!

  136. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    @kestral

    I think we get it all back + compensation on our share of the BoE
    Nationalised on 1st march 1946.

    Mr peffers partly answers that in his post
    17th July at 5.01pm. (Two back)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-interesting-times/

    Scorching today much ‘after sun’ being applied.

    I just love this ‘Greece without the sun’ place we live in. 🙂

  137. Lochside
    Ignored
    says:

    Brian doonthetoon@ good point that needs clarified. There was a couple, the Cuthberts, who I recall were deconstructing the ‘GERS.’ We need authoritative information on what we raise in Scotland, in terms of wealth and revenue.

    I met many people on the doorstep, during the REF, who refused to believe Scotland is rich enough to support itself. The media’s constant harping on ‘black holes’ worked. If we had clear concise figures showing how well off we are compared to fucked up RUK, then we will win the next REF.

  138. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Before I catch up on the Scottish footie: link below.

    I hear radio shortbread celebrating 50 Scots in Team GB 🙂

    Hand on heart I have never watched the last 4 Olympics.

    How about 100+ Scots in Team Scotland and quit this 4 countries pretending to be 1 business. Then I’ll watch again.

    http://neolive.net/

  139. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks Bob Mack and Lenny Hartley.

    I’ll look further into it.

    What about my input at 2.15?

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/packing-scotlands-trunk/comment-page-1/#comment-2167543

    I thought it was a fine idea for discussion. Nobody else did…

    8=(

  140. KOF
    Ignored
    says:

    @ ephemeraldeception 18:10

    Yes, I checked that article about the UK Treasury statement. However, that is the problem, it’s the “UK” Treasury, not the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland Treasury. When the Treaty of Union is repealed, then there is no UK, no UK Treasury. We WILL be liable for our share, just as we WILL have our fair share of the assets. The only way for there to be no debt, is if Scotland is seceeding from the UK. If we seceed, then we also get no assets.

    Don’t forget, this statement came from the UK government. They think they’ll still be the UK after Scottish independence. That was the message they were laying down thick during the referendum in 2014. The message being that they and only they were the continuing state and Scotland was a brand new state. The truth of it however, is that there will be no continuing state, just the re-establishment of two existing states. The Kingdom of the Scots, the Kingdom of England and as to the status of Northern Ireland, well, that’s something Northern Ireland has to decide.

    My original points stand, I think. We along with Kingdom of England created the UK, we are also ending it. We have responsibilities and we also have rights in it’s demise. We will take whatever debt, if any, but will also take our share of assets.

    For me the everyday assets, the gold, the military assets, etc are just that, just ordinary everday things. Money comes money goes, bits of machinery wear out and are replaced. The assets we really have to make sure we get is the return of our historical assets. How many bits of Scotland’s heritage are ensconced in the British Museum, etc. They are part of our past, they should be part of our future too.

    Never forget, just because the UK Goverment says something, it doesn’t mean it’s true.

  141. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Wingers

    Smallaxe has had surgery this afternoon and had a 5cm tumour
    removed successfully,however we will have to wait 3/10 days
    for the results from the lab,so fingers crossed.

    He is still under heavy sedation and probably dreaming of
    Independence.I can not thank you all enough for your kind
    messages,you must all be very special people when my husband
    felt he could share his condition with you (some of his family
    have no idea how ill he is). Thank you once again, Mrs Smallaxe.

  142. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    How about 100+ Scots in Team Scotland and quit this 4 countries pretending to be 1 business. Then I’ll watch again.

    Yeah I’m the same I would never support anything or anyone under a union jack

    So why don’t we have our own olympic team ?
    Is there any reason we can’t ?

    Graeme

  143. DerekM
    Ignored
    says:

    Hey yoons push article 50 ya chickens,i can smell the fear from here its running doon yer legs.

    Still trying to figure out how you back track on telling everybody there will be negotiations about A50,lol you yoons what are you like its not a trade deal its the process of removing an EU parliamentary membership that means all the parliamentary privilages as well.

    Now what was it you told us in 2014 again ah yes no special deals back of the EU queue if you vote yes.

    Ha i bet May comes back from the EU waving a bit of paper saying she got a great deal and that we showed those EU bullies.

    Cue flags and bunting full pomp and vomit rule Brittania as the tory dogs scream in the rags nah nah nah we won and the whole EU looks on in a massive wtf moment.

  144. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Lochside: “We need authoritative information on what we raise in Scotland, in terms of wealth and revenue.”

    The answer will be the same a last time: “I don’t know who to believe”.

    The variation is: “They’re all liars.”

    Drag out a Nobel Laureate economist to verify the facts and you’ll still get people afraid of standing on their own two feet to make a decision, their head full of prejudices.

    However, a good number of Unionist politicians implacably against Scotland making its own decisions have by now admitted Scotland can be successful under self-governance.

    Let the billboards show their face and their statement.

  145. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Mrs Smallaxe: He is still under heavy sedation and probably dreaming of Independence.

    Tell him, it’s all but here now, we have only to decide if it’s to be signed on paper, parchment, or carved in stone.

    I wish him strength.

  146. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    All the very best wishes and Scottish luck to you and your Mister, Mrs Smallaxe

  147. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Mrs Smallaxe.

    Let Smallaxe know that best wishes for full recovery are ‘winging’ their way from bonnie doonthetoon Dundee.

  148. Frank Kemp
    Ignored
    says:

    Iceland has its own currency for goodness sake.
    So many things went wrong with indyref. The EFTA alternative was never mentioned. Now after BREXIT everyone knows about it. There is a plan A and a plan B!

    Keep up the good work Rev.

  149. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Mrs smallaxe

    You tell smallaxe we’re thinking of him. 🙂

  150. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    News from abroad:

    http://archive.is/Y5ir6

    Meanwhile: Darn Sarf!

    Labour sources noted how Mr Owen not only had the advantage of being a better media performer than Ms Eagle but also had “no baggage”; that being a relatively unknown MP – he entered parliament in 2010 – would be an advantage in presenting himself as a new generation of leader compared to the 67-year-old incumbent.

    Ms Eagle served in Gordon Brown’s government and backed the Iraq War in 2003.

    http://archive.is/AC6Q4

    PS: Corbyn has a legal challenge to pass. There is a very slight chance that Owen will be the last ‘man’ standing.

    Oh! Wait couldn’t happen twice… could it…could it?
    May & Owen

  151. Lenny Hartley
    Ignored
    says:

    Brian doonthetoon yup ch4 scottish news good idea but heid fill o other stuff the noo , cannie keep up , burnt out several popcorn machines in last month 🙂

  152. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    However, a good number of Unionist politicians implacably against Scotland making its own decisions have by now admitted Scotland can be successful under self-governance.

    Let the billboards show their face and their statement.

    Perhaps a billboard showing the top 10 Scottish antiscots

    This would be my list

    (1) Gordon Brown
    (2) David Mundell
    (3) Alistair Darling
    (4) Ruth Davidson
    (5) Kezia Dugdale
    (6) Wullie Rennie
    (7) Jackie Bird
    (8) Kay Adams
    (9) Michelle Mone
    (10) Jackie Bailley

    Graeme

  153. Vince
    Ignored
    says:

    Call me Dave
    50 Scots in UK team. A pittance. Countries of a similar size to us sent over 100 participants to the London games. Despite our Scottish £800 million pound investment in the London Games we sent 54 ( £15 million pound per athlete)
    Our Women’s Hockey team are of world standard as are our Men’s Rugby seven’s teams. How many players, do we have in each team respectively for Rio. 0 and 2.
    There are so many reasons as to why Scottish sports men and women would benefit from Scotland being a separate nation for the Olympic Games among them the ability of National Teams to enter Olympic Qualifying tournaments and the motivation, experience and joy that goes with that.
    Team Britain is not Better Together for Scottish Sports.

  154. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    mogabee says:
    19 July, 2016 at 6:31 pm

    Why don’t we, as in Scotland, have a competition to design and name a new currency for an Independent Nation State?

    I feel that may concentrate minds whilst giving folks ownership of said currency.

    *westminster may panic* 🙂

    Ruby replies

    That is a brilliant idea!

    Perhaps it will go viral & attract a lot of press attention if ‘Poundy MacPoundface’ becomes the most popular choice! 🙂

  155. marydoll
    Ignored
    says:

    Len Hartley 8.21

    I think the Channel 4 Scotland is a great idea. Couldn’t Stuart Cosgrove do something with that?

    Mogabaee 6.30
    a great idea. Thinking of a currency will focus the mind and will be accepted more easily. Kevin bridges once suggested spondoolies ( gets my vote)

  156. Bob Mack
    Ignored
    says:

    @Mrs Smallaxe,

    He is a winger. That makes him special. Best wishes for a good outcome.xx

  157. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    KOF,

    So you want the assets as well as the debts. Seems reasonable at first glance. But what if the assets are worth considerably less than the massive debts? What if we have to endure a hardball negotiation with an arrogant rUK for our fair share, just as already happened with post-Smith financing? It might be a whole lot simpler if we just walk away from the lot.

    I’m also trying to think what those assets might be. Crown property belongs to Scotland by right. Likewise the territorial waters. So what’s left? The BBC? =laugh= Trident? rUK will have to pay us to host that lurking nightmare until they furnish alternative accommodation elsewhere (at vast rUK-only expense). The few remaining surface vessels of the Royal Navy or tanks of the Army? Overseas embassies?

    Maybe I’m missing something, but I’m struggling to think of anything that would justify “claiming” the vast debt accumulated by a series of incompetent UK governments.

  158. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    The Cuthberts revelations about GERS were political currency as far back as 2007.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6267881.stm

    The fact we are still discussing how to torpedo GERS in any argument about independence reveals a serious need to come at this from a different angle.

    The ‘trick’ will be to show the desperation of the unionist side if they try to use GERS as the basis for saying anything credible.

  159. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    I love this name the new Scottish currency competition idea!

    There could also be a competition to come up with the best IndyRef slogan.

    These competitions could be open to people worldwide. Students are always keen on these competitions it helps get their names out there.

    There could be different categories of winners one for the more serious and one for the most witty/bonkers!

  160. Lanarkist
    Ignored
    says:

    BDTT, Could, should and will work, but need political benevolence from WM to ‘make it happen’.

    Six of one and half a dozen of the other, by the time we get consent from Westminster we could have taken our Indepedence.

    Now how to get rid of the MSM, at least for the month before a referendum?

  161. Jozef OLuain
    Ignored
    says:

    A list of mediocrities altogether, Graeme.
    Given the talented people that we have amongst us, how the hell did we end up with a list like that? I’m patronising nobody: the Rev. if he cared to, could lose the lot of them.

  162. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    @smallaxe (mrs)

    Best wishes to you both from all here.

    ———————————————————–

    @Vince

    Totally agree on all points. Roll on independence!

  163. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    Ruby 8.36

    It is a great idea –

    but you just know it would end up in Poundy McPoundface mode if it was a public scheme.

    Now, if the Scottish Government was to put the design contract out to tender first…

  164. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Good stuff Mrs Smallaxe…sending love peace and light his way…wishing a speedy recovery after the op and a good outcome re lab results. Wings over Smallaxe. 😉

  165. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    arydoll says:
    19 July, 2016 at 8:41 pm

    Mogabaee 6.30
    a great idea. Thinking of a currency will focus the mind and will be accepted more easily. Kevin bridges once suggested spondoolies ( gets my vote

    Ruby replies

    I like ‘The Ginger Bottle’

    The pound is a strange name for currency I wonder who thought that one up and if any European country ever considered calling their currency the Kilo.

  166. Lanarkist
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert J. Sutherland.

    I quite like the idea of one tenth of the Crown Protectorates or some of the better located Embassies!

  167. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    Obviously the new unit of Scottish currency should be the Rose sub-divided into petals.

  168. ann
    Ignored
    says:

    Received an E-mail from Nicola. Petition duly signed and onto Facebook.

    A wee question. Would it be illegal in anyway for the convoys of the nuclear missiles being stopped and the border.

  169. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ mrs smallaxe – good to hear that mr smallaxe is making progress. Wishing you both all the best. Fingers and toes all crossed!

  170. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    Graeme says:

    19 July, 2016 at 8:25 pm

    However, a good number of Unionist politicians implacably against Scotland making its own decisions have by now admitted Scotland can be successful under self-governance.

    Let the billboards show their face and their statement.

    Perhaps a billboard showing the top 10 Scottish antiscots

    This would be my list

    (1) Gordon Brown
    (2) David Mundell
    (3) Alistair Darling
    (4) Ruth Davidson
    (5) Kezia Dugdale
    (6) Wullie Rennie
    (7) Jackie Bird
    (8) Kay Adams
    (9) Michelle Mone
    (10) Jackie Bailley

    >

    Can’t disagree with that list. We can rest assure that none of those mugs will ever appear on the notes of an independent Scottish pound note.

  171. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    I think we officially call the new money ‘Quids’ and the change ‘Smash’.

    Quid sterling.

    Hehe.

  172. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    I think it should be the Thistle sub divided into Dokens

    Graeme

  173. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    We could use the dollar. It’s not American originally but Spanish but also European (from the German Thaler).

    Coins known as “thistle dollars” were in use in Scotland during the 16th and 17th centuries

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar

  174. Marie Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Mrs smallaxe, send smallaxe all our love, and we are all routing for him. I hope that he has a good outcome.

  175. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    mike cassidy @ 20:48:

    The ‘trick’ will be to show the desperation of the unionist side if they try to use GERS as the basis for saying anything credible.

    You know that’s true, and I know that’s true, but how is some poor unsuspecting punter watching some GERS rent-a-quote yoon on the Beeb to know it’s true?

    Only by discrediting GERS first, eg. as Tony Little proposed upthread. Only then can we successfully mock any BritNat who dares to try it on.

  176. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Want to really wind them up how about “The Salmond” and you get 100 Sturgeons to a Salmond he he he a Ten Salmond note

    How much is that mars bar 75 Sturgeons

    They’d have to say it down in that London one Salmond equals a pound Mbwaaahha

  177. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    If Broadswords aboot tell him Bald Eagle has crashlanded,when is this farce of Labour gonna end.

  178. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Re: the Cuthberts.

    Did a wee Google search and came up with this, from January 2014, which I archived.

    Economists: Scotland deserves £bns in compensation for squandered oil money

    http://archive.is/fLw5l

    The quote in it that jumped out at me was from Murdo Fraser:-

    “The Tory spokesman on the economy, Murdo Fraser, said: “This sort of pie in the sky reasoning will do the nationalist cause no good whatsoever.
    “If you are going to look at Scotland’s historic share of national debt it needs to be on the basis of a beneficial 300-year-old union, not just a convenient snapshot of recent decades.””

    Obviously, for Murdo to want to include the entire history of the union, it’s apparent that he has never read the info here:-
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/

  179. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Graeme says:
    19 July, 2016 at 9:15 pm

    I think it should be the Thistle sub divided into Dokens

    Ruby replies

    Oh Mogabaee look what you’ve started!

    I like that one Graeme even if it reminds me of being stung by sticky willies & nettles!

    What about the Knicker or should it be nicker. Half a Knicker, quarter of a knicker, and a thong.

  180. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Mrs Smallaxe
    Good to hear he has had his surgery.
    Thanks for finding the time to let us know.
    Tell him we are all thinking about him,and have everything crossed for a good lab result.
    Please keep in touch when you can and most importantly Rember to take care of yourself too. XXX

  181. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 11h11 hours ago Gifford, Scotland
    but this project fear, it should have stopped by now

    Did Kev ever come back and explain to us why Scotland’s responsible for the now £17bn North Sea oil rig decommissioning costs?

    Ofcourse he didn’t.

    This is what undermines tory BBC led media Project Fearing on Scots thinking about independence Kevin. You’re either just a UKOK spin doc Kevin or you genuinely cant answer any questions your own personal Chocabollox Project Fearing might face. BBC Scotland creeps dont bother either but they don’t try to wing it, on Wings:D

  182. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    I knew the eagle was a stalking horse!

    And, darlings, Owen Smith is so normal.

    Normal as in “I have never heard of him”

    May be a selling point in Labour these days 🙂

  183. Muiris de Bhulbh
    Ignored
    says:

    The Irish Free State did negotiate away their share of the Imperial Debt. Many Northern Irish nationalists, expecting the boundary changes to include them in that Free State ( today the Republic), felt ( and feel) that their birthright was sold for ‘a mess of pottage’.

  184. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    20 Bobs to the Ecky. And to confuse ‘decimal-only’ thinkers, 8 halfdollars to the Ecky. (Bringing back a pre-decimal unit of currency there.)

  185. T.roz
    Ignored
    says:

    I think this is the best thing I have ever read on wings and the comments above are great too. Starting to get excited.

  186. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    Mrs Smallaxe wrote:
    “you must all be very special people when my husband
    felt he could share his condition with you (some of his family
    have no idea how ill he is)”

    Thanks to your updates on his progress his wider family all know now and we’re all wishing him a very speedy recovery. It matters when it’s one of our own. All the very best to you both!
    _____

    IanB, i doff my cap to you sir for pushing this, sterling effort!
    https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/
    _____

    Effijy, i’ve no idea when this petition was created as it doesn’t contain those details and i think the wording of it could have been more informative and hard hitting. But because it’s not a commercial petition and against something i strongly oppose i am with you all the way on this.
    C’MON FOLKS, LETS BURST THE NET WITH THIS, SPREAD FAR & WIDE
    http://www.snp.org/scraptrident?mc_cid=7822341808&mc_eid=2ca6f3edb9
    Drag folk to sign kicking and screaming if you have to.
    Tell yer grannies ye’ll brush their wallies if they sign.
    _____

    Brian McHugh posted this update earlier today, worth repeating:
    “Everyone involved and who supported this should be incredibly proud. Scotland is a little better because of it.
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/updates

    Goodnight troops!
    🙂

  187. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    Capella says:

    19 July, 2016 at 9:17 pm

    The Scottish Dollar ?

    Braw. 🙂

  188. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s gonna happen.. real soon, folkspeople x

  189. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s gonna happen.. real soon, folkspeople x

    Get down

  190. Macbeda
    Ignored
    says:

    I reckon we should have the Merk matched to the Euro.

    The Merk was 13shillings and 4pennies in old money to the Scots pound. 2/3rd to be precise.

    We could have 100 Groats to the Merk. Not a strictly correct transfer but hey its our currency we can call it what we want.

    The UK pound will be down to parity with us within months of our independence anyway.

    Chancellor Merkel could get a place on the back of the 50 groat note if she backs us into Europe cos that would be half a merk or very nearly a Deutschmark.

  191. Colin Rippey
    Ignored
    says:

    Even for this site the amount of utter madness about how to somehow find holes in GERS is astonishing.

    Here’s what I never understand about yesperados and GERS.

    GERS is published by the Scottish Government
    The SNP is in control of the Scottish Government
    The SNP has been in power since 2007

    If GERS is a Tory plot, why has the SNP continued to allow such dastardly data to be disseminated to the public for the last 9 years without doing something about it?

    You only have to look at say the recent furore around The Scottish Historical Child Abuse Enquiry to see how much the SNP want to micro-manage everything and yet somehow the compilation of GERS is beyond their control?

    Why did the SNP use the GERS data from 2011-2012 to underpin the economic case in the Independence White Paper if GERS is so utterly corrupt?

    GERS tells us that an iScotland would have a revenue of well over £50b with a GDP about 3 times that, where is the hidden revenue that is unaccounted? All I see splattered here is crazy theories with ZERO substance to them. But by all means do keep up the conspiracy theories, I mean you cannot all be wrong can you?

  192. Kevin Evans
    Ignored
    says:

    Just for a laugh we should have a new currency called “the jobbie”

    Loose change can be know as “skitters”

  193. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Stoker –

    I remember keeping a tally of the WOS fundraisers but can’t find them…

    Dunno if anyone has ever kept a record of online fundraisers, but this Iraq Families one must surely be right up there as one of the fastest.

    If Blairite diehards like McTernan reckon Corbyn’s their biggest problem they may have to think again…

    This apeall passed the basic £50k target in nine hours. Now over £62k –

    https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/

  194. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Nicola’s petition. 17232 and rising fast.

    We really need to give her a good mandate to act on …

    http://www.snp.org/scraptrident

  195. Kenny
    Ignored
    says:

    Stu, I think you need to collect this and similar articles and create:

    THE WEE B£U€ BOOK

    I am serious. The money issue is crucial to a lot of people and, it has to be said, a lot of people voted NO out of self-interest, while YES voters were thinking mainly of the children, the future…

    Me? I was always convinced by the economic arguments!

    What also needs to be tackled is the question of interest rates. Many people have mortgages. So this also needs to be studied and a clear and honest answer given to voters — as much as this is possible.

  196. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Colon Repeaty: Even for this site the amount of utter madness about how to somehow find holes in GERS is astonishing.

    Tosspot Colon Repeaty returns.

    Posting the same provocative crap with no variation except length will only get you chucked into the nettle patch with your pants removed.

    And in desperation to seem knowledgeable you’ve arrived at the stage you’re posting gibberish.

  197. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey

    You are quite a rude NObber! What is it you are trying to achieve by posting here on Wings?

  198. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    As for currency naming, I’m still a Merkista. Despite the undeniable charm of Paula Rose’s suggestion. =grin= But I never got as far as thinking about the name of a sub-unit to go with the merk. How about the equally-traditional groat?

    But like Ruby, anything except copying the vile leaden “pound”.

    I also quite liked the point that Kenny made upthread @ 13:08 about Ukraine, except of course it would make sense in our case to allow as “adjacent” legal tender the euro rather than the rouble.

  199. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    galamcennalath: “Nicola’s petition.”

    Signed. (And sealed with a kiss)

  200. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Macbeda @ 20:02,

    Snap! =laugh= (Funny what posting delays can do. But obviously good ESP there.)

  201. KOF
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland 20:46

    Why? Because it’s the right thing to do, the honourable thing to do, the ethical thing to do. Many people want independence so we can have an ethical, honourable government who will do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do. Do we really want to start our independence being a bunch of sleekit wee shites who won’t live up to their obligations?

    It may not be the smartest thing, the best thing, the easiest thing, but it sure as hell is the right thing to do.

  202. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T Sorry!…was reading Business insider UK and was a bit shocked to discover….

    … “that during the attempted coup that rocked Turkey on Friday night, commercial power lines were cut to Incirlik airbase, where 2,700 US Department of Defence employees and, allegedly, about 50 B-61 Hydrogen bombs are stationed.

    The Turkish General who commands the base and 11 employees have been arrested for their alleged part in the coup.
    Aside from the temporary closure of airspace above Incirlik, the Pentagon maintained that the attempted coup had “no impact” on it’s mission against ISIS, because even when commercial power was cut, there is a back-up generator.

    Despite counter-ISIS operations continuing virtually unaffected, Incirlik apparently houses US nuclear weapons, which is concerning given the recent coup attempt and the two wars Turkey is fighting against the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, and ISIS.

    “Although Incirlik probably has more nuclear weapons than any other NATO base, it does not have any American or Turkish aircraft equipped to deliver them. The bombs simply sit at the base, underground, waiting to be used or misused.” (The New Yorker.)

    Incirlik is approx. 80 miles from Turkey’s southern border with Syria. The weapons are reportedly protected by a permissive action link, or a coded switch designed to deter unauthorized use of the weapons, but these systems were devised decades ago and could be circumvented.

    Who needs Trident?

  203. X_Sticks
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Is this what you were thinking of?

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/?s=million

    @Mrs Smallaxe

    I’d like to add my kindest thoughts and best wishes to Smallaxe and wish him a speedy recovery.

  204. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Kevin Evans says:
    19 July, 2016 at 10:04 pm

    Just for a laugh we should have a new currency called “the jobbie”

    Loose change can be know as “skitters”

    Ruby replies

    I think you might have a good chance of winning the Bonkers category!

    Your idea certainly made me laugh but then I am super bonkers! 🙂

    Perhaps if you are skint or tight fisted it could be called being constipated. Regular bowels movements would mean a good credit rating etc etc.

  205. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    If we’re going with the merk –

    the sub-unit should be the spencer!

    Its been a hot day.

    And I’m about to watch “London Has Fallen”

  206. Apollo
    Ignored
    says:

    While I appreciate this will most likely be construed as an appeal to emotion fallacy and in reality it is highly unlikely but the fact remains that there could a scenario where a limited nuclear strike is carried out by Russia as a ‘escalate to de-escalate’ strategy as part of a conventional war between it and NATO and Faslane could be a target of this limited nuclear strike.

    I would be too much of a emotional response for America to be attacked which would have the opposite effect. Instead a non American site would be targeted that didn’t have as significant immediate effect on the major powers so frankly a base out of the ‘wilderness’ of major population areas that matters like Faslane would be an ideal target for such a strategy. Lets not get emotional about this because logically it is a correct assumption.

    Of course it is highly unlikely that the two powers would ever get into the position where such a scenario would happen but it could and that’s the point. You simply can’t have nuclear weapons and not want the responsibility that in doing so you will become a target. It is simple delusion on that part of those who think otherwise.

    There is no military purpose for Trident and has been mentioned on this site by posers over the past couple of days new technology will make it obsolete. It is not required and a waste of money when it could be used by better military and non-military purposes especially as been seen with recent events where the greatest threat to the British people are enemies engaged in terrorist/ asymmetric warfare.

    Every decent person regardless of their views on the constitutional position of Scotland should unite in their opposition against it.

  207. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    KOF @ 20:24,

    I wholeheartedly agree that the policy of an independent Scotland should be based on principle. But your argument about UK debt is fatally flawed, because those debts were not incurred by the Scottish Government or the people of Scotland. They were incurred by UK governments which we never voted for implementing policies which we fundamentally opposed but were forced upon us regardless.

    (It’s faintly reminiscent of the example of vile regimes executing people then demanding that their families pay for the bullets used.)

    That is the whole point about autonomy and why we so desperately need it. So that we can take responsibility for our own decisions and actions. Not those of someone else which we have, time and time again, repudiated in vain. That, I submit, is a principled position.

  208. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Okay, CR’s a pain at times, but I must admit, I like ‘Yesperados’ – sounds like a project for Cactus and some musically-minded buddies.

  209. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby

    The NObber’s own country is the laughing stock of the world so he feels the need to share his joy with us instead of thinking about what he could do to help the land he worships

    Which BTW is backtracking so fast on Brexit it’s probably only going to happen in name only in the hope of fooling the English electorate

    But if they keep saying the word Brexit enough they might get away with it (They hope)

    He’ll likely tell me he’s a proud Scotbut now born and bred which of course he’s not because he doesn’t understand what being a Scot is

    I’ll enlighten him: A scottish person is someone who is FOR the advancement of something in his chosen country or country of birth and not AGAINST

    Wherever the NObber comes from he’s an AGAINST and that makes him less than useless to any country

  210. Alan Crerar
    Ignored
    says:

    What’s all this “60% support for Indy” nonsense. If the EU referendum taught us anything, its that a marginal result can trigger major changes.
    I’d reckon 50% plus one man and his dug will do for Indy now.
    I’ll just practice my smug “you lost, that’s democracy” riposts for the Yoons.

  211. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    How’s that new novel coming along, Ian, ‘Bulletproof Bawbag’?

  212. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Rippey

    Never try to wing it, on Wings (nod to Heed) 😉

    Banging on about the same thing all the time, will just bring the shutters down.

    Though I do think you have a point re “Why do the SNP use GERS”

    It does seem odd that the foremost theoreticians of Indy, based their White Paper, on data they consider flawed.

    the Question I ask is if the BG and SG, cannot agree on any set of data to use, why not?

    Secondly how expensive would it be to actually collate incontrovertible data re Scotland’s economy.

    Surely an accountant , economist on 100k a year , * 40 say so 40 trained auditors etc. could possibly audit the whole thing in a year for 4 million plus ? say £10 million ?

    Why don’t they do it? Brian Souter recently spent £25 million on speedboat company (to buy and sell it)

    For a life long nationalist to pay a £10 million, so that the matter is then beyond doubt .

    If it was possible then Brian Souter, or Jim Mccoll,would of done it by now, surely.

  213. Cadogan Enright
    Ignored
    says:

    Good article from the Rev

    Another devastating blow to the BBC from GA Ponsonby here http://indyref2.scot/the-bbc-and-the-brexit-veto-scam

  214. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Colin Rippey
    Like Kevin Hague, if that isn’t your alter ego, you don’t seem to have a single solitary clue what GERS actually is, it’s published by the Scottish Government, it’s audited by Audit Scotland, and it contains figures supplied by the Scottish Government, but it also contains figures supplied by the UK Treasury.

    And the problem is, Colin / Kevin, that the Treasury doesn’t split all expenditure down by “region”, nor does it split all revenue by “region”, and even though HMRC has improved with its disaggregated receipts, it still contains aribitrary splits (e.g. “unknown region”) to estimate Scotland’s share. It actually says similar to that in at least one full copy of GERS, if you (and Kevin) ever bothered to look at the detail rather than the pretty pictures.

    Now, as for the origins of GERS I need do no better than Douglas Fraser, BBC, Business and economy editor, Scotland:

    Receipts have been a lot healthier of late. And ministers in charge at St Andrew’s House have been using the GERS figures for the opposite purpose to the one for which their Tory predecessors intended them.

    Do you see that “conspiracy” by Douglas Fraser? “for which their Tory predecessors intended them”.

  215. scottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    A bit depressing to see all this what I call ‘deficit envy’. “Mine is smaller than yours”. “No its not!”
    Thing is govt deficits are determind by the activity (or lack of) of the non government part of the economy
    The most recent major deficit spending by the uk was the near £1Tr spending bailing out of the city of london. This helped push salaries up higher and paye receipts with it. Hence lower spending gap. Was it productive? No. It basically has served to reboot the ponzi scheme which led to the financial crisis of 2008.

    So should a scottish sovereign govt run deficits? Of course!
    How large? Whatever is needed to push us toward full employment – a policy the tories themselves pursued in the post war period.

  216. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    (Opposition to the nuclear weapons system in Scotland isn’t as strong as the left likes to pretend – most polls find more or less a 50/50 split, depending on wording. Few people actually anticipate a nuclear conflict, and the cost of Trident is a much more pressing issue than the danger of being a target in a theoretical war in which the whole of Britain would be effectively destroyed regardless of where the weapons were sited.)

    Interesting point REV re 50:50, surely the fact that 99% of our MP’s voted against Trident spite the wishes of the 50% of the electorate, who don’t mind it, is a sign of a crucial democratic deficit in Scotland.

    I think the idea of RUK paying to keep Trident and Faslane as military base after indy is not too far fetched.

    What’s the betting that canny Scots like the sound of the rent money paid, and vote to keep it ? albeit narrowly.

  217. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    I have just finished reading an email sent from Money Week.
    While they are trying to sell a subscription what the email does is explain just how bad the UK’s finances are and the things the government is most likely to do about it.

    Do not buy a subscription unless of course you really want to, but you are likely to be shocked at what you read in the run up for their offer. I think you should all read it, incredible and worrying when you see just how far they believe the UK will go.

    http://moneyweek.com/endofbritain/

  218. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    Do you see that “conspiracy” by Douglas Fraser? “for which their Tory predecessors intended them”.

    Please don’t keep us in suspense Indyref2

    What did they intend them for?.

  219. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Grouse Beater –

    Aha!

    Book titles again…

    Steinbeck’s ‘The Grapes of Wrath’ caused a stir when it was released in Japan because the kanji used in direct translation means ‘The Angry Raisins’.

    I was very impressed by wee’e’s comment t’other day about the House of Lords being occupied by ‘old unelected shitebags’.

    So, my current project is entitled ‘Return Of The Angry Raisins and The Old Unelected Shitebags’. I am confident of securing a deal on the basis of the title alone, and not having to write another word until I receive confirmation that film rights negotiations are near completion.

    In the unlikely event of failure, my fall-back is ‘Bulletprooof Boris Does Dallas’.

    We can but dream…

    🙂

  220. Gary45%
    Ignored
    says:

    Empire Shortbread up to its usual tonight.
    Had a wee look at Rep Shorty on the AYE Player, wi Sally and the new health correspondent??? WTF
    Monklands General headline. NON STORY.
    More discussions with non affiliated/maybees aye, maybees naw customers today, the EBC and the Empire are FCUKd.

    TICK TOCK.
    Indy Ref 2 BRING IT ON.

  221. KOF
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland 22:39

    “those debts were not incurred by the Scottish Government or the people of Scotland” Of course those debts weren’t incurred by the Scottish Government, it’s a devolved governmental body. It’s the debt of the UK Government we’re talking about! A government which you insist we never voted for. Now. let me see was there ever a time when Scotland voted for, say a Labour government and low and behold we got a Labour government at Westminster?! Yes! Several times! We even got some Tory ones, even though it was a long time ago.

    If the UK is to cease to be, then we (as a founding part of the UK) are liable for part of the debt. (as well as the assets) As I said previously, because it would appear we have put in so much more than our share over the last three centuries, then we may have nothing to pay. Who knows? However, the principle stands.

  222. Clootie
    Ignored
    says:

    @Les Wilson 11:10

    …have I missed something?
    This looks like a very old letter.

  223. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Grouse Beater –

    🙂

    As it happens, the new one is called ‘Bulletproof Boris’, but it’s not a novel, it’s a very very short story because, as things turn out, he isn’t.

  224. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko
    Well Papko, you’d really have to ask Douglas Fraser that, as that was his words, not mine. If you contact the BBC and ask, you’ll probably receive their standard response.

    GERS originated in 1991/2, a Conservative Government and the purpose was to show Scotland “how generous” it was to Scotland. This despite previous Secretary of States for Scotland having failed to bother taking full Barnett consequentials for Scotland under the Thatcher regime (the money was spent elsewhere in the UK instead). Or even the full Barnett for that matter. They turned it down.

    Now, there was an increasing clamour in Scotland for Devolution, and for a Referendum on Devolution, and the Conservatives were dead against this. In fact they said there would be capital flight from Scotland, the likes of Standard Life would pull out, banks would flee, and Scotland’s economy would be devastated. That may be familiar to you Papko, having seen it all during the Independencce Referendum, same old stories, dug up from the Conservatives campaign against Devolution. Only this time Labour and the LibDems joined the Tories in perpetrating deceit and intimidation upon Scotland, unlike 1997 where they supported Devolution.

    In the event, in the Devolution Referendum in 1997 Scotland had the sense to totally ignore the Tories and vote 74.6% YES to Devolution. Unlike September 18th 2014 for Independence.

  225. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    http://www.snp.org/groups_landing

    Not seen this before. Hey Papko, kevrage/ripley, fancy starting up a YES group with me? Paps, you could do your thing where you hit the comments section with completely pointless comments and Kevrage could do his Mr Angry yoon act, WHY DONT YOU ALL JUST READ THE FACKIN GERS AND CHOCABLOG WHAT I WROTE TO SAVE SCOTLAND FROM RUNNING SCOTLAND waffle n stuff, with graphs.

    I’d invite this toryboy to join but he really is too creepy, even for me.

    https://twitter.com/neiledwardlovat

  226. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Clootie says:
    It came in today anyway, maybe it is a bit older just updated perhaps.

  227. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @KOF
    Ah, you had me going there for a minute. Yes, the principle is complete, we take our share of the debt and share of the assets, removing from the debt the value of any assets we are denied by the rUK, like currency, which would have an intangible asset value in the balance sheet of the UK – if it had one.

    I’d suggest when it comes to the post-YES negotiations that the Scottish Government appoint PwC (Price Waterhouse Coopers) to provide a full profit and loss and balance sheet of the UK going back 30 years, to properly assess Scotland’s assets and liabilites as part of the UK, including a Brand valuation for the Pound Sterling.

    The cost could be £100 million, but the savings could be £billions, £tens of billions in fact.

  228. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    With all the talk about a Scottish Currency, and all the completely squashed nonsense we heard about how Scotland couldn’t could use our joint currency, the GB Pound, which only England can control, I thought I would remind you all of who else used the Pound that is England’s alone?

    You will recall the Irish Pound.
    Gibraltar Pound,
    Isle of Man Manx Pound
    Syrian Pound
    Sudanese Pound
    Lebanese Pond
    Guernsey Pound
    Jersey Pound
    Egyptian Pound
    Falkland Islands Pound
    St Helena Pound
    * Australia Used the Pound up until 1966.
    * New Zealand used the Pound until 1967.
    * British West Africa
    * Jamaica
    * Cyprus
    *Fiji
    * South Africa
    * Rhodesia

    Well isn’t it strange that so many countries and areas, large and small, rich and poor can and could use the Pound, but for the sake of Lying and Cheating, England says the Scotland Can’t???????????

    Georgia uses the Lari. I would be as Happy as Lari if we had any named currency along with Scottish Independence!

  229. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    currency, I like the Scottish Dollar (Sc$) shows we mean business and gives it a little prestige look. Implies we have arrived, and we mean it.

  230. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    OT
    Going off air to avoid risk damage. North Ayrshire lightning every couple of seconds, going to be a helluva thunder storm I think.

  231. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    I wonder how many pound sterling would it take to make to make a Scottish Dollar (Sc$) hmmmm.

  232. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry about the typo in last post, 2nd today!

  233. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    hey its our currency we can call it what we want.,,,,

    why not the auchtermuchty, then the southerners wont be able to call it anything 🙂

  234. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Re Apollo @10.37… from the UK Business Insider

    ‘During the attempted coup that rocked Turkey late Friday night, commercial power lines were cut to Incirlik air base, where 2,700 US Department of Defence employees, and allegedly about 50 B-61 hydrogen bombs are stationed.

    Commercial power was reportedly cut to the base at 7:30 Saturday morning following the coup — which ultimately failed — and the air space above Incirlik was temporarily closed. Turkish Gen. Bekir Ercan Van, Incirlik’s commander, and 11 other officers from the base were arrested for their alleged role in the coup.

    Aside from the temporary closure of airspace above Incirlik, the Pentagon maintains that the attempted coup had “no impact” on its mission against ISIS, because even when commercial power was cut the air base was powered by backup generators.

    Despite counter-ISIS operations continuing virtually unaffected, Incirlik apparently houses US nuclear weapons, which is concerning given the recent coup attempt and the two wars Turkey is fighting against the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, and ISIS.

    The weapons are reportedly protected by a permissive action link, or a coded switch designed to deter unauthorized use of the weapons, but these systems were devised decades ago and could be circumvented.

    From The New Yorker:

    “Although Incirlik probably has more nuclear weapons than any other NATO base, it does not have any American or Turkish aircraft equipped to deliver them. The bombs simply sit at the base, underground, waiting to be used or misused.”

    Incirlik is about 80 miles from the southern border of Turkey and Syria’

    Even Russia wouldn’t need Trident!

  235. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    ha ha, that gave me a laugh!

  236. Chic McGregor
    Ignored
    says:

    We had the Dollar – 5 Shillings long before the USA ever had the Dollar.

    It was still common vernacular for 5 shillings in Scotland when I was a young man in the 60s and 70s.

  237. Free Scotland
    Ignored
    says:

    OT – sorry, Rev – Has anyone seen this august performance by one of little england’s chief brexiteers?

    http://tinyurl.com/jdmbrk3

  238. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi KOF.

    Your shift now?

  239. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    KOF @ 23:22,

    (Apologies to all for my wrong timeref for your previous posting, which was 22:24 and not 20:24.)

    Your argument reminds me of that old saw, “what have the Romans ever done for us?”. How far back would we need to go, do you think, to work out the net balance owed? Never mind, I simply refer you back to Rev Stu’s piece above, which makes clear that if anything the morality argument applies in reverse, and rUK should owe Scotland a net re-payment for the last 32 years at least.

    Incidentally, “we” were not “a founding part of the UK”, as you put it. A small coterie of bought-off aristos (the “parcel of rogues”) sold Scotland out against the popular will and “we” have been stuck with the consequences, for better or worse, ever since. Mostly worse, lately, as I mentioned.

    Furthermore, regardless of which government was in power in London, Scotland’s economy has suffered by being made to take England’s medicine for England’s ills, no matter what. The cost of that of the Scottish economy over the years is incalculable. Likewise the collateral damage done to Scottish morale, and which the yoons contemptibly continue to actively pursue to this day.

    May I also remind you that under the Barnett formula since it was introduced, Scottish “Executives”/Governments have had to operate under a fixed budget. Which by definition could incur no debt. Before that we had no choice on spend whatever. So why should we pay for another government’s policies and choices?

    It’s deeply ironic, but debt refusal stems directly from the unprincipled compact made between all three Unionist parties at the last indyref to summarily reject the proposed currency union, which would have been beneficial to both sides. In that they acted against the best interests of their rUK electors as well as the Scots.

    Judging by your reaction, the possibility of debt refusal is one that scares the London treasury and government sh*tless! Which in itself is quite a recommendation.

  240. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Chic McGregor.

    I looked into the “half dollar” issue when I was a young teenager. For some reason, we had a book in the house which was published in the 1930s – full of facts about everything, including currency.

    At that time, the US Dollar was worth 5 Bob and it had been for quite a period. It explained to me where “half a dollar”, for a half crown, came from.

  241. carjamtic
    Ignored
    says:

    Summertime and the trolls are jumping….

    Daddy’s Greek and mama’s Scottish…

    Hush now……

  242. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Chic McGregor.

    Funnily enough, I was not aware of the “half dollar” term until I moved to St Marys in 1960. It was common currency in the Holy Land.

    I learned a lot, moving from the Nethergate to St Marys… When do you ever see a ‘canny-annie” these days?

  243. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    @carjamtic

    Their own country’s in the crapper and they come here hating us
    They’re mentally irregular

  244. Andy Macneil
    Ignored
    says:

    @Colin Rippey
    “GERS is published by the Scottish Government
    The SNP is in control of the Scottish Government
    The SNP has been in power since 2007”

    Rather than attempt inference, why don’t you attempt to educate us. So, in the spirit of camaraderie, the floor is yours. Tell us all, in your own words, what is GERS. Don’t be sparing in your description. We want to know all the details. Over to you.

  245. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dr Jim –

    ‘mentally irregular’.

    🙂

    What a nice way of putting it!

    Ye’re a natural diplomat…

  246. scotspine
    Ignored
    says:

    Im a bit frustrated here folks.

    There are over 100,000 SNP members, yet why have we only got just shy of 19,000 signatures to the SNP Anti Trident petition at this stage?

    Are folk just not giving a shit?

  247. scotspine
    Ignored
    says:

    Test

  248. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    I’d suggest when it comes to the post-YES negotiations that the Scottish Government appoint PwC (Price Waterhouse Coopers) to provide a full profit and loss and balance sheet of the UK going back 30 years, to properly assess Scotland’s assets and liabilites as part of the UK, including a Brand valuation for the Pound Sterling.

    The cost could be £100 million

    Thx Indyref2, an answer at last( I guessed at £10 million in a previous post).

    So once PWC have done an audit the data would be incontrovertible.

    In fairness to Keverage and Brian Souter,that is out their scope as well.

  249. scotspine
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m a bit frustrated here folks.

    There is supposed to be over 100,000 SNP members, get hours after the SNP anti Trident petition was made public, we are still only at 18,500 names.

    Do folk just not give a shit ?

  250. carjamtic
    Ignored
    says:

    Dr Jim

    Aye,pythonesque…,

    Kardashian = Good…Pythagoras = WTF anger,how dare you suggest the earth is not flat.

    For normal folk,everday’s a school day,this lot are determined to prove Darwin’s theory…..even if….

    :-j

  251. Tackety Beets
    Ignored
    says:

    BDTT ,

    I have every respect for AS , but I canna support your suggestion of an Ecky , it means something else oot there in the street.

    I’m sure you will know and it was just an oversight .

    “Here cov , I need some Eccies fur e weekend”

  252. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    Incidentally, “we” were not “a founding part of the UK”, as you put it. A small coterie of bought-off aristos (the “parcel of rogues”) sold Scotland out against the popular will and “we” have been stuck with the consequences, for better or worse, ever since. Mostly worse, lately, as I mentioned.

    @Robert Sutherland

    There were no general elections, universal suffrage or polling companies in 1707.
    So how was the popular will of the Scottish people determined , if they did not get a vote?

    Was not every decision at the time made by a “coterie of nobles” , from going to War, to painting wheelie bins.

    Furthermore, regardless of which government was in power in London, Scotland’s economy has suffered by being made to take England’s medicine for England’s ills, no matter what. The cost of that of the Scottish economy over the years is incalculable. Likewise the collateral damage done to Scottish morale, and which the yoons contemptibly continue to actively pursue to this day.

    Good point, so why did leading theoreticians of indyref1 want to tie Scotland to the GB pound,and let another country set our interest rates?
    Why shackle Scotland’s vibrant economy to the decomposing corpse of the English economy.

  253. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko
    Off the top of the head but probably a reasonable estimate. Wouldn’t surprise me if it ran to 3 years and escalated to £200 million. The SG – and rUKG if it turned out to be a joint effort, would be advised to write in some form of ownership of databases, software etc, as it could be develoed into a full-blooded model of both the Scottish economy, and the rUK economy- with a potential continuing value in terms of growth and decision-making of billions.

  254. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Papko @ 00:57 opines:

    Why shackle Scotland’s vibrant economy to the decomposing corpse of the English economy.

    Good point there! You could be right.

    Which probably explains why trolls such as you keep fighting a vain rearguard action to persuade we Scots to keep supporting your failing economy as we have done for the last 40 years or more.

    You just can’t help sneering at the Scots yet apparently also can’t stand the thought of them leaving you all on your own. It says much for your deep-seated insecurity. Which is well founded – people all over the world are actually laughing at the clueless UK now and its ridiculous neo-imperial pretensions.

    You just don’t get it. The Union died on 23.Jul.2016, even if it still hasn’t got through to some people in denial yet. But the more trolls like you post your yoon bilge on here, the more you convince people we’re right to be free of you.

  255. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Tackety Beets.

    it wizznae me come up wie the Ecky! A bigger boy wie a pointit stick threw it on ti the page then run awa’.

    Eh wiz jiss goin’ alang wie the bigger boys…

    Dinnae tell muh mum…

  256. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    OT
    That was a superb light show, multiple lightning per second, nearly continuous at times, around the Clyde, just a little thunder. No visible power surge. Maybe from Ailsa Craig to Dunoon in just less than an hour. Thank you Gaia!

  257. Tam Jardine
    Ignored
    says:

    Ruby

    Been looking at the HM GOV regional trade statistics and the mysterious unknown region. It is shrouded in mystery, as unknown regions tend to be.

    It is probably my ignorance of the methodology- I can’t really understand this “Unknown Region” but I think we should annexe it.

    The figures they describe are exports only ie exclude trade from Scotland to the rUK and vice versa. They also exclude “trade in services, banking, tourism and financial investments or transfers”.

    The figures are based on the postcode of the head office and are by its own admission therefore skewed towards London and the South East, although they apparently make some efforts to adjust this through a policy of random checks (which sounded quite unsound to me).

    All the stats are divided into 9 categories. Lets just look my favourite one: Bevvy and Tobacco Manufacture.

    Since 2008 Scottish exports of bevvy have made up about 70% of the UK exports of bevvy and tobacco as you may well expect and the unknown region’s distilleries have been fairly quiet. Last year for instance a mere £286.5 million of exports are produced in witchspace (where they spell it whiskew I understand) compared to a bumper year for Scottish exports of £4477 million.

    Those stills were not always so still. Travel back in time to 2006 and the burgeoning whiskew industry and the famous gins and ales of the Unknown Region were flying- the world was enjoying its favourite tipple manufactured in some kind of strange, formless terroir.

    In 2006 there was marginally more beverage and tobacco exports apparently from this strange land than any other ‘region’ of the UK at 34% of the UK total. Scotland managed 32% and England were slightly behind on 27%.

    In that golden year Extra Regio produced £1.44 billion worth of exports. £1.44 billion!

    I have travelled around the world many times during my trips to the off license but have never seen this Extraregio… is it an Italian red perhaps?

    Travel a wee bit further back to 1997 and we see the recent nadir of the Scottish drinks industry. Exports of our finest malts and lagers were in the doldrums making up a mere 27% of UK exports. Our friends in the vinyards and breweries somewhere between the north sea and the the white lodge were similarly struggling, churning out a mere 16% of the UK’s wines, spirits, beers and tobacco related products.

    Fortunately for the UK England back then was a major exporter of whiskew and other spirits accounting for a massive 53% of UK exports. Talk about broad shoulders!! In 1997 (before the arse fell out of the bevvy industry in England and all of the distilleries of whiskew closed down, at the height of the Boddingtons Bitter export boom England were exporting £2.4 billion bevvy and tobacco related products. Almost exactly DOUBLE poor wee Scotland (£1.2billion). And waaay more than Extra Regio who could only manage £700million of exports that year, bloody slackers that the mysterons are.

    The funny thing about the drinks and tobacco industry according to HM Gov’s RTS statistics (which has a really neat, easy to use tool by the way, which allows you to produce absolute pish stats really easily) is this:

    The industry has had a slight wobble in the late 90’s but has basically been on a gently upwards growth curve from a low point of about £4 billion in 98 up to £6.6 billion in exports in 2015 without any wild fluctuations.

    My reading of this is that whenever Scottish exports have faltered the rest of the UK including our partners in Extra-Regio are able to pick up the slack. That’ll be that pulling and sharing wot labour are always talking about.

    Look out for that 2006 Extra Regio when you are next perusing the wine shelves in tescos friends.

    And Smallaxe- if you read this drivel- hope you are well on the road to recovery brother. I’ll be raising a glass to your health very soon

    https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/BuildYourOwnTables/Pages/Table.aspx

  258. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Tam: “I can’t really understand this “Unknown Region” but I think we should annexe it.

    I’m all for that. Hey, I’d even volunteer for the expedition to plant the Saltire. BYOB, RSVP.

  259. Bob Mack
    Ignored
    says:

    Amazing ? show in Perthshire. Dogs very uneasy but coping.
    The Treaty of Union was not accepted by ordinary people of Scotland.There were riots in all the major cities
    Interestingly enough ,after it was signed it was escorted South by a very large military contingent of English troops as they feared it would be sabotaged by the ordinary folk.

    Our freedom was stolen by nobles who had no right to do so under Scottish law.

  260. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Tam Jardine @ 01:31,

    Thanks for that pleasant little modern fairy tale, and just in time for bed too. It truly made me laugh. (Better than weeping, anyhow.)

    Seems we’re starting to get a handle on things with this. Cheers!

  261. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Yesindyref2

    Probably the best deconstruction of GERS here:

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-limitations-of-gers/

    Some excellent links to the work of Jim and Margaret Cuthbert, it shows its historical origins, context and usage. Although much improved under the current SG since they came to power, it is what it is limitations and all.

  262. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart
    There will be some who will use such articles on WoS, but others who won’t because it’s known pro-indy. There’s a poster now in the H was a staunch Unionist (I “know” most posters) but wants to know the plan: “My feelings on independence have completely changed since Brexit. I’m far more open to it than ever before.“. Sadly meeting the odd one or two inevitable smart-arse or aggressive responses instead of some empathy and welcome.

    Anyway, I’m going to start looking at SNAP properly – ironically pointed out by Jezerna (abiesalba). It’s still experimental, but here’s a goodie (yum yum):

    In 2015 as a whole, annual onshore Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Scotland is estimated to have been £142 billion in total, or £26,500 per person.

    Including a population share of UK extra-regio (offshore and overseas) economic activity, Scottish GDP is estimated at £143 billion in total, or £26,700 per person.

    Including a geographical share of all offshore activity occurring in Scottish adjacent waters, total Scottish GDP is estimated at £152 billion in total, or £28,400 per person.

    http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/QNA2015Q4

    linked to from:

    http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/SNAP

    That of course also reduces the %age deficit to 143/152 of the GERS figure, which is a start. Then subtract interest if the debt works out to be less, then subtract excess expenditure attributed to Scotland, then subtract ………..

  263. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart
    In fact the Scottish Government is going to have to take the plunge on this, and produce a proper estimate of, particularly, the onshore deficit. The other side can argue their heads off then and probably will, that it’s wrong, but for one, it’s up to who people trust more, and I think even NO voters are prepared to trust figures from the SG. And secondly, then it can be ripped apart by hostile thinktanks, but also by the likes of LSE, even IFS who use GERS as their basis, plus hopefully some international interest.

    The SG (not the SNP) really have to take the lead on this.

  264. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry, me again. Just been reading that SNAP pdf itself, and it explains very clearly what “extra-regio” is on page 2. But this is interesting as well: “Extra-Regio territory is a national accounts concept defined by the EU for use in regional accounts”

    http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00499946.pdf

    which incidentally adds to a conclusion I’ve been coming to that there’s a lot of hidden aspects of the EU that are really pretty good. Strange we never hear about them from the BBC – including that the easier accounts regime from HMRC / Companies House for the likes of me, originated with the EU defining us as “micro-entities” and coming out with a Directive to enforce simplification. I’m beginning to think that the EU itself is at the start of a journey.

  265. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    Reparations should be negotiated and paid in Krone preferably , or Yuan (jic)

    Are ‘Elephant’s’ the opposite of ‘Squirrel’s’ ?
    ———–

    Filthier minds might have thought that the commonly used ‘Had’ prefix derived from somewhere else.
    There is whipping, and caning though. 😉

    http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/over_a_barrel
    ———–

    On currency.
    Tam’s
    100 Wee-Tam’s’ to the ‘Big-Tam’.
    ———–

    Can you imagine how they are simultaneously going to try and woo the ‘leavers’ by Badding the EU, at the same time as trying to Brexit with the least damage done to established interests ?

    ooft!

  266. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart
    Yes, read that by Lindsay Bruce at the time, and his tweet about the extra-regio comes from the SNAP pdf so he’s on that.

  267. woosie
    Ignored
    says:

    Call me Dave;

    I won’t be watching much of Rio. Anything I do see won’t be on ebc, nor in support of team gb.

    Remember Alex Arthur, the very good boxer; won the Commonwealth games gold for Scotland, but was advised not to celebrate with a saltire draped across his shoulders, or he wouldn’t be in “team gb” at the Olympics. He duly wore the Saltire, and was overlooked by our imperial masters for Olympics, despite having beaten everyone in his weight who went.

  268. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh where o where, did these stories go….?

    Trident, trident, trident, trident !

    Suddenly Trident is the latest excuse for the blackout of every other news story in the uk.

    What about THE big stories right now ?

    Election fraud, 29 alleged examples of election fraud which could result in Jail time for those involved, never mind the small matter of changing the entire make up of the uk government, almost certainly from majority to minority, and how that may affect legislation or decisions already passed. !

    Kicking Article 50 into the long grass while the Government try find a way out of the leave decision and not taking the blame.

    When was Chilcott last mentioned on the mainstream news ?

    We waited YEARS for this report and it gets a few days reporting on it then is ‘ignored’ and never spoken of again !!

    I mean, really ???

    If Nicola Sturgeon farted in a lift while with Theresa May, there would be a week long story claiming that Nicola attempted to murder the PM in a ‘gas’ attack..?

    Free press in the uk…?
    Don’t make me laugh.
    …….

    Re Scottish currency…

    Can we name the 1p the “Alistair Darling” ?

    Insignificent, nobody really can be arsed with it and no-one would miss it when it is gone.

    In context usage…

    Shopkeeper…”you forgot your ‘Alistair Darling’ change mate..!

    Customer….”ach, just fling it tae fuck bud”.

    Of course, the problem comes when assessing “how many ‘alistair darlings make up one ‘Nicorooni”?

    There simply isn’t a number that big…!!

    Ah well…!

  269. Sandy
    Ignored
    says:

    Colin Ripley.
    Normal people use toilet paper to cleanse their nether regions.
    You must go through a hell of a lot.
    How do you get the skid marks off the front of your shirt?

  270. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Westminster debt £1.7Trillion. UK assets £8.7Trillion

    Scotland take it’s own assets and no debt. Thatcher took the equivalent of £300 Billion Oil Fund (assets) building up Canary Wharf, Tilbury Docks. 26miles. It is all documentated. Thatcher
    /Reagan/Clinton/Brown deregulated Banks and (US)UK cut leverage from 25% of capital reserves to 13% of capital reserves. Destroyed world banking Laws. An agreed 25% of capital reserves.

    The Tories will never hold power again in the UK. Never. If Scotland had voted YES they would be out of this corrupt mess.

    Scotland raised £54Billion (without Oil revenues) 2015April 2016 as 2014/2015 with Oi,revenues. £54Billion (£4Billion Oil revenues).

    Osbourne had Oil tax at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75% leading to Projects being cut, thousands of job loses and lose of revenues. Osbourne destroyed the Scottish Oil sector. The tax is now 40% from Jan 2016. £4Billion+? for five years. = £20Billion+. More Oil & Gas has to be imported leading to a higher balance of payment deficit and more debt.

    Cameron and Osbourne should be put in jail. They and their associates made £Millions/Billions tax evading and embezzling public funds. Including Trident/illegal wars, banking fraud, tax evasion. RBS sell off and the Royal Mail Pension fund grab. Osbourne’s best man and brother in law (bankers) and other associates made £Millions/Billions. That is why they are in politics. To line their own pockets.

    The Unionists tax evaders feather their nests on corruption and abuse. They hide it under the Official secrets Act. Corrupt bankers fund the Tory Party and control the Press debts. Whisky companies. The Press is owned by tax evading Non Doms who influence politics. Politicians and Press barons want out of the EU so they can continue to tax evade. The EU are clamping down on tax evasion and tax havens.

    Hinkley Point and HS2 will waste £Billions which could be better spent. They will be years over time and budget. They will make rail and fuel more expensive, when there are better, cheaper more effective alternatives. Trident is just a colossal waste of public money. Vulnerable people are being sanctioned and starved. The Tories have destroyed the world economy. How much longer will this unelected, undemocratic farce continue?

  271. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland could save £1Billion from Trident/illegal wars, £1Billion with a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. £3Billion? tax evaded. Whisky Comps etc pay no tax. £4Billion on debt repayments on loans Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend. £4Billion+ of Oil revenues (lower tax from 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing jobs and revenues)

    = £13Billion+ which could be saved better spent.

    Building frigates to patrol the shore stopping £Billions of drugs invading and destroying communities. Damaging the economy. Instead of bombing the Middle East and destroying the world economy from Lossiemouth.

    The unelected ‘psycho bastard’ that can’t count or read a balance sheet is trying to blame Scotland for delaying Brexit when it is her own policies which are ruining the UK economy. What a bare faced liar. When May was in charge of immigration there were such huge queues no one could get in or out of Britain. Checks had to be abandoned. People had to be let in and out of the EU unchecked because of the chaos. Immigration increased. May blamed the Head she had appointed. The Head resigned and called her out. May had cut the staff and created the chaos. Every time she is caught out, she blames someone else, The buck stops there. They have already downgraded any targets. Two faced liars.

  272. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Murray was offered a knighthood and he refused. Good for him. He is a major international talent. Not a Westminster tacky, lackey. He didn’t need the money. Worth £30Million. He values his Independence as a world sportsman. He has brought £Millions to Scotland. Two major events to Glasgow Emirates and more to follow. The Davis Cup. Pity about the ignorant hollering, putting people off. A major Tennis Develoment – Stirling. An international Tennis Centre would regenerate the area bringing in more tourists and revenues. The Murrays have done massives for Scotland. To put Scotland in the map. They should take a bow. Absolutely brilliant.

  273. frogesque
    Ignored
    says:

    Re currency:

    During the runup to the first ( practice) IRef I noted elsewhere that a currency could be based on anything and indeed, certain South Sea islands used cowrie shells.

    Now, Scotland is a wee bitty short on cowries but we do have limpets in abundance round our beautiful coasts. Therefore I re-propose the Lumphinnans Limpet as our base unit of current.

    Alternatively we could reintroduce the Rhyal and the Bawbee.

    Please don’t blame me for the above, the puppy got me up to let it out at 6 this morning and then ate my homework. I need a coffee!

  274. Bill
    Ignored
    says:

    I never understood people in Scotland worried about currency. As a merchant seaman I use many currencies, my wallet looks like a mobile travel exchange office. Dollars, Euro, Pacific Francs, Vanuatu, Fiji, Samoa and sterling which I have to make sure I take BoE notes as try changing a Scottish pound in New Caledonia!

    Anyone been to Gibraltar? M&S tills take almost any currency!

    So how about a basket of currency that’d make Scotland an easy place to do business, tills in our Cities accepting any currency making tourists welcome.

    After all it’s just bits of paper with someone’s face printed on it, how about Stu on the first Scottish pound note? (And his rat sitting in a Bath).

  275. frogesque
    Ignored
    says:

    @bill:

    Exactly, when you go to Spain, America, Australia, NZ or wherever, do we really care whose face is on the note when we are at the bar getting off ours

  276. Dorothy Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    Ken500, totally agree yet we have petty ,small minded media still sniping away.

    Personally don’t approve of all these Knights and Dames being flung around those who have already succeeded in their chosen field and need no other accolade that their gold discs or gold medals.

    Not to mention the ones awarded for treachery against their own people/ country.

    Mrs Smallaxe , hope all is going in the right direction this morning – positive thoughts wending their way to you both.

  277. starlaw
    Ignored
    says:

    Saw an ATM in Brisbane airport which dispensed cash in four different currencies .. The Pound was not one off them Ive used several currencies, its not a big deal.

  278. Undeadshaun
    Ignored
    says:

    With regards to debt, this link also explains in fiscal terms why the debts will be cancelled out by assets.

    http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html

    I also what will happen with rbs, will they split it into rbs/natwest with ruk owning natwest and Scotland owning rbs.

    Could we then make rbs central bank?

  279. scotspine
    Ignored
    says:

    Guys, keep punting the SNP Scrap Trident Petition. It needs publicity and numbers to succeed its aim.

  280. Bill
    Ignored
    says:

    So indyref2 will be fought on currency and GERS again!

    Well I don’t care what currency we use and I’d go further than that by insisting that it isn’t BoE Sterling. For every pound printed in Scotland a pound sterling must be deposited in a BoE nominated account.

    When Scotland drops out of the sterling zone the BoE would need to return to us Titans & Giants they hold in our name. Then we’ll have our geographic share of assets.

    As for GERS like its namesake is dead. We need a full set of accounts like the UK Pink Book but only in blue. The Big Blue Book – over to you Derek – http://www.derekmackaysnp.org/

    Reject Sterling

    Reject GERS

    Indyref2

    Game on!

  281. Colin Rippey
    Ignored
    says:

    @yesindyref2

    Oh look, it’s Mr “I can defeat any No voter’s arguments…but I’m keeping it a secret”. The master strategist of the yeserati, publisher of a myriad of No voter meme busting masterpieces.

    The last 30 years, so from 1986 onwards? Your meme is redundant, you all need to change your last 33/32/30 years” meme to “since 1981” or you’ll miss out the real income from oil (it’s not 2013, it’s 2016 and your arithmetic is failing you).

    Again you obsfucate your GERS argument by harking back to the 1990s.

    If GERS is so flawed WHY has the SNP not done something about it?

    Why has the SNP not directed the people who work for them to “dig deeper” and get the full picture?

    And finally, why is it such a bad thing for an iScotland to have to make some short term adjustments to it’s economy upon independence? None of you on here would bat an eyelid if major changes were enacted for a few years.

    The arguments over independence no longer matter anyway, like Brexit there’ll be no logic applied to the next referendum, the voting will be done on emotionally charged rhetoric and before you know an iScotland will start with a major set of decisions. But it will pass after 5 years or so just like Ireland managed to grow their economy again after 2008.

    Just accept it, that is what is going to happen.

  282. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    All these Trolls think they’re Alistair Darling
    If we didnae believe him what makes them think they’ve got a chance

    How the economy works by every chancellor ever:

    You invent a number you need or want then have a whole bunch of clever clogs prove that it exists, you guarantee that number is accurate to the markets, they work out how much more they can make on that number, then everybody agrees

    By the time anybody wants to disagree with the original number it’s to late because you’ve named it Fiscal Policy and you have free reign for the next few years to avoid any awkward truths and blame it on the next guy

    If all else fails you cut benefits for the poor, cut the defence budget and promise that will sort the rosy future to come in the Sunny Uplands and BOOM!! you’re through the next few years

    By then shit is splattering from the desk fan but you don’t care coz it’s resignation or reshuffle time and your pension is assured and you’re a success coz you still get to dump it on the next guy

    Plus you get a nice red and white new suit to sit in the House of Lords and pontificate on what the next guy is doing wrong while you rake in obscene amounts of cash from directorships you got for inside favours to the money market guys for keeping your secrets

    I know Zilch Nada Nothing about finance and the management or economic dealings of Government or world prices of Pork Bellies or any shit like that but I do have a long memory
    and most importantly

    Fucking eyes!!

  283. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Tam Jardine

    Cheers! My head is spinning!

    I’ve never been very good at book-keeping I really need a more simple explanation of this Extra-Regio activity. Am I right in think that instead of having two accounting ledgers there are three?

    How to cook the books:

    Ledger 1. Scottish ledger this must never show any profit.

    Ledger 2. English ledger this must always show a profit

    Ledger 3. Extra-Regio ‘off the books’ ledger where all profits from ledger 1 can be transferred if it would be too obvious if it were transferred to ledger 2.

  284. jimnarlene
    Ignored
    says:

    @ DrJim,

    Seems right enough.

  285. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    After yesterdays glorious weather we once again return to being boring old ‘Greece without the sunshine’, OH HUMMM!

    http://www.snp.org/scraptrident

  286. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    1 Auchtermuchty = 100 Achiltybui’s

    1/2 an Achiltybui = A Maggie May ( cos it’s brassy & masquerades as a sovereign)

    5 Auchtermuchty’s = an Ecclefechan

    10 Auchtermuchty’s = an Aberchirder (foggy loan)

    20 Auchtermuchty’s = Spondubhlech

    50 Auchtermuchty’s = a Lookabootye

  287. Greannach
    Ignored
    says:

    Have I got this right? The charismatic “I’m my own woman” Angela Eagle stands down to leave the field clear for the omni-talented Owen Smith. Is that what’s known as a comic shambles?

  288. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Yesindyref2

    I agree, producing a fully accounted set of figures would set the cat among the pigeons. I suspect though it would prove a helluva undertaking and I’m not sure they could pull all the relevant material together in time at the current rate of events.

    It is what is needed though, a full set of accounts detailing ALL revenue streams and expenditure with, hypothetically, all known revenue streams fully credited to an SG treasury rather than HM treasury. The problem though is that they wouldn’t be an ‘official’ set of figures as such, and still the figures would be out of context. That is all the numbers would be there, but they still couldn’t be attributed to the actions of an independent Scotland’s economic strategy.

    That is the whole nub of the problem with GERS. Its not just that there are revenue streams not attributed to Scotland, or that some Treasury based figures are ‘best guesses’ to fill in holes. Its that the premise is a snapshot of Scotland’s performance under the powers of devolved government, fixed budget and UK economic strategy.

    The powers and strategy married to all revenue streams and expenditure is the ONLY thing that will ever produce a true set of accounts for Scotland’s performance.

    But then simply attributing all revenue streams even to the limited GERS model would, as you say, send central government’s think tanks and treasury wonks into a spin and force people to ask that question.

    Just who do I trust?

  289. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    The rude NObber Colin Rippey is getting himself into a bit of a state is he not?

    What’s his problem?

    Is he the best the NObberati have to offer!
    They really should give him some lessons in anger management/how to win friends and influence people before the send him to post on Wings.

  290. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    The arguments over independence no longer matter anyway, like Brexit there’ll be no logic applied to the next referendum, the voting will be done on emotionally charged rhetoric and before you know an iScotland will start with a major set of decisions.

    That’s what won it 2014 Kevin? Project Fear belching out of the BBC for starters. A rich powerful broadcaster like the BBC can no longer terrorise a region it thinks it owns, shock?

  291. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Just to go back to trident, a year or two ago, the government allowed Babcocks to reduce it’s insurance cover for a nuclear accident at Faslane to a ludicrous £100,000 per accident.

    Regardless of how bad an accident that is all they will be liable for. A serious accident could cost millions, and Scotland would need to supply the excess from our own funding.

    I have this morning changed various search terms to confirm what I remember was grossly out of reality. However I can no longer find any reference to it. Looks to have been air brushed out.

    Maybe, another able winger can find it. It shows utter contempt for adequate response to a serious nuclear accident at Faslane.

    If anyone can find the details which were printed at the time, it is important that the public know about this.

  292. Andrew McLean
    Ignored
    says:

    Dear Colin Rippey,

    Well I don’t normally give much credence to persons who have to resort to the pejorative, but actually I quite like the name Yyeserati, someone has been reading his Dan Brown!

    But as Churchill said “The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes.” our talented Mr. Ripley makes a good suggestion for openness between Scotland and Westminster. In that spirit, given Mrs May’s offer of a place at the table to discus brexit, it would only be proper if the Scottish Government were give unfettered access to the Treasury, in that way, and only for the purposes of clarity, would the Scottish government be sure any agreement with the E.U was in the best interests of this Nation.

    The second assertion made “None of you on here would bat an eyelid if major changes were enacted for a few years”, is structurally flawed on two grounds, first Mr Ripley you clearly have not being paying attention, this is not a SNP government supporting site, and we are a quick to attack anyone, including the government if we detect any backsliding in their desire for independence, the fact that that is rare is as much the result of the SNP Government being actually, competent and effective than us wingers not living up to our reputation as complaining vile separatists.
    Secondly whilst I can agree that come Independence the first months will require the government to work to continue balancing the books, the financial strength of the Scottish economy will ensure a very secure and sound transition.

    I did so enjoy your final remark,” Just accept it, that is what is going to happen” to which I read your meaning as, independence is not only the correct course of action but an inevitability.

    So may i be the first to welcome you, to the body of the Kirk, Mr Ripley, you vile separatist winger you!

  293. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Bill says:

    “So indyref2 will be fought on currency and GERS again!”

    That will certainly what BT2 will try. They have to. It’s all they have left to make up Project Fear 2.

    Most of Project Fear 1 doom and gloom has come to pass WITHIN the Union!

    Add to this all be broken promises and the NO case, primative as it is, is much diminished.

    BT2 will focus on the economy, however they will also be busy batting away all the flack coming their way for what the said by BT1. That won’t make them sound very credible.

    I saw on Scot Goes Pop the suggestion that the minimum acceptable for the SG/SNP would be a Norway Solution, however this would be rejected by WM as not Brexit enough. Personally I think the Norway Solution is too far from our perspective. Confederation in the UK with Scotland fully in the EU means the mandate SG were given. They should stick with that as absolute minimum because it matches the results of both referendums.

    WM will reject it, of course, so it’s onwards to Indy.

  294. DerekM
    Ignored
    says:

    Things have changed i was all for the SNP`s keep sterling during indyref,we set out a logical argument by keeping sterling if we had won indy then the markets in all sterling zones would be safe even if we did end up out of the EU and applying for new membership though i find that scenerio highly unlikely.

    We bent over backwards to accomodate the UK and sterling, markets dont care about borders or countries they only care about currency,it could have worked as well but hey ho thats that one flung in histories bucket.

    Brexit changes everything no more umbrella from the EU currency,you see even though the westminster britnats would never admit it sterling has been in the ERM,someone thought it would be a good idea not to meet the fiscal rules for the single currency,it makes sterling a branch of the single currency therefore EU countries trying to attack it means they were only attacking themselves not anymore.

    You know the wee fair ground stall shoot a duck well sterling will be the duck.

  295. ScottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    Sigh,
    You can’t grow an economy by taking money out of it (austerity). It’s a fallacy of composition. It conflates the macroeconomy with the micro economy (household).
    So iscotland will and should run deficits as required.

    Having this argument about who can ‘balance the books’ better is like arguing about the planets pre-Copernicus.

  296. AAD
    Ignored
    says:

    Can I point out that we have a Scottish bank which is run responsibly with no gimmicks or advertising. It provides at least one service no longer provided by the other banks – bridging loans. This is the Airdrie Savings Bank. It costs me to use it but at least I am banking in Scotland with a responsible bank.

  297. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    Fred likes “Croons!” 🙂

  298. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Been away/busy..now catching up via links etc..
    ..er..
    ..what the hell has happened to the world?

  299. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Macart says:
    yes indeed that is what is needed, The SG should insist on it.
    It is however the last thing the treasury would want. They (Westminster’s biggest asset) know how to cheat and hide evidence, after all they have had 300 years of practice.

    I am a bit disappointed the SG have not already pursued this, it is a bit of a no brainer for Indy success.

  300. sinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Timely article on GERS given the Scotland Too Wee Too Poor articles in Scotsman and Herald this morning.

  301. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Re Ken @6.40

    Couldn’t agree more about Andy Murray achievements and he’s such a nice guy too!

    Don’t know where you live Ken, I live in Bannockburn/Stirling and we are all so proud of Andy. The children in local schools worship him. He is a giant and inspires them for their futures however, and it is a big however, the proposed tennis centre is a very controversial matter here.

    Stirling Council tries to keep the west approach to Stirling undeveloped to allow the Castle and Wallace Monument, both major tourist attractions, to be clearly seen and this policy has been upheld for other proposals including a vast mega-dairy complex and housing developments.
    Geographically, a huge amount of the farmland west of Stirling is part of the floodplain for the rivers Forth and Teith and is regularly under several feet of water.

    One major drawback seems to be that the proposed development plan includes a number of ‘executive houses’ on site.
    Stirling doesn’t need more executive houses – it needs affordable starter homes.

    The Scottish Sports Institute and the National Swimming Academy are situated on the other side of the road from the proposed site, in Stirling University grounds, so we already have a lot going on there.

    How about Hamilton, Ayrshire, Dundee, Perth, Auchterarder – which is near Dunblane and Cromlix House? To the east of Stirling there is a huge building plan and possible sites with an equally stunning view of the Castle, the Monument and the Ochil Hills and easy access to the Motorways.

    It’s a great idea and many of us hope it will be built somewhere as a recognition of the Murray family’s fantastic contribution to Scottish life – but, as I say, it is a controversial plan and I’ve only scratched the surface.

  302. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    As some of you know I used to live in Spain
    One time I wanted to change some money in Alicante and had no English stuff so I presented my Scottish notes, the Teller checked his “Allowed sheet” and said NO to my Bank of Scotland money NO to my Royal Bank money then the last thing I ever imagined he said YES to my Clydesdale Bank money

    The teller explained to me that was a guaranteed bank on his allowed sheet and if I wanted to change money in the future Clydesdale was the one to use

    Things have changed since but I always wondered why the Clydesdale?

  303. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Meg merrilees says:
    20 July, 2016 at 10:17 am
    Re Ken @6.40

    Only in Scotland could our greatest athlete be told where to go by a yoonster council like Stirling. The Murray tennis build was a few acres along the side of the M9. The whole area is farmland with almost no development and anywhere else and it would be welcomed but not Stirling. Its just disgraceful really but so many yoon owned Scottish councils are dis-functioning like madhouses.

    The biggest creep out from the Stirling block on Murray tennis centre, is the massive chicken coop housing estates getting thrown up in the flood plain but its no doubt all down to nods and winks and Murray Tennis can bugger off because there’s nowhere for him.

  304. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Whereever it goes it will be an asset. A University Centre will not cut it. Re international tourist use etc. If it is not suitable for Stirling it could be sited somewhere else. Stirling needs the regeneration and often loses out to other Cities/areas.

  305. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    mike cassidy says:
    19 July, 2016 at 10:36 pm

    If we’re going with the merk –

    the sub-unit should be the spencer!

    Ruby replies

    🙂

    Very witty!

    And the slang term could be as I suggested earlier the knicker with sub-units called the thong.
    100 thongs = 1 knicker (really big knickers) The Big Girl
    50 thongs = half a knicker (French knickers) The Frenchie
    25 thongs = quarter knicker (Brazilian knickers) The Brazilian
    10 thongs = 1/10th knicker (Bikini knickers) The Bikini

    Food prices could be decided on depending on the number of calories

    One deep fried mars bar would by at least one Big Girl
    A lettuce that would cost just one thong.
    An apple would cost a Brazilian
    etc etc

    Do you think that might work to help curb our obesity problem?

    I might have to think up the equivalent for men although that might take some time as I’m not terrible au fait with mens undies. It’s been a long time and I keep getting these headaches.

  306. DerekM
    Ignored
    says:

    @ ScottieDog

    So true just the same as you cant go screaming leftie print spend spend spend,they are two sides of the same coin one spends on private the other spends on public and both of them dont have a fecking clue.

    What is a government for well the basic idea is that it decides where to print and spend so if the private sector has reached production saturation its insane to keep pumping money into it ,it has to go through the slump thats when you turn your print spend into the public sector and create well paid jobs to counter the shock from the private sector unemployment and keep the consumers spending at a good level this has the affect of continuation and recovers the private sector or in one word balance.

    Taxation is not so governments can spend its so they can fight inflation,somewhere down the line it got turned into a political weapon and new taxes were introduced to cover election tax cut promises,you see every time a government spends they must get x amount in taxes from that spend or face an inflation rise.

    Yes you guessed it or did you, austerity is the way of making up that tax shortfall not only did we bail out the banks we are now expected to bail out tax dodgers.

    Oh and we might have trouble running a deficit Scottie i hear we are stinking rich but we will take what ever because it will be ours to decide and thats the important bit 🙂

  307. Andrew McLean
    Ignored
    says:

    Dr Jim,
    The same thing happened to me in 1980/81 you must be old 🙂

  308. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Parliamentary Channel

    Chilcott Report Committee

  309. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    I can live with the term ‘Yesperada’ being that it is a combination of YES and the Spanish word for expected. It’s definitely better than being called a NObber.

    Yeserati is fine again better than NObberati.

  310. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    Ruby wrote: “Is he the best the NObberati have to offer!”

    I like that – The NObberati!
    🙂
    _____

    C’mon folks, this is one of the biggest issues we will ever have to deal with, outwith the issue of independence itself, let’s get the support behind it, not for Nicola or the SNP but for the benefit of every single person in Scotland and beyond, especially all our future generations. If we can’t get the support for this we’ve got one helluva struggle for independence.
    http://www.snp.org/scraptrident

  311. Onwards
    Ignored
    says:

    mogabee says:

    >”..a competition to design and name a new currency for an Independent Nation State?”
    ——–

    Oh God, no…
    That would just hand the yoons an open target. Especially proposals to bring back medieval names such as the merk.

    If we are to have a Scottish currency, it should simply be the Scottish pound or the Scots pound.
    We already use sterling backed Scottish pounds printed by the banks here.

    For many, it would be a big enough step in having our own currency, to having a new name completely. People are used to using Scottish pounds in Scotland and English pounds in England.
    We should even keep the purring Queen on coins until such time as people otherwise.

    If we gain independence, I suspect Westminster will be lobbying for a currency zone after all.
    It was reportedly Philip Hammond, the new chancellor, who was the unnamed cabinet minister admitting to a Guardian reporter that “of course there will be a currency union”.

  312. MJT
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart and others.

    I totally agree. And whilst it might take time and money to produce a comprehensive set of figures, it would be time and money well spent. The more information we have to hand, can only help us win our Independence.

    Yes, this is something the Scottish Government should be pursuing, but I would say it’s a matter for the entire Yes movement to be looking into.

    If you’re SNP, Green, Rise, Radical Indy, Business for Scotland, Yes Registry or whatever, we need to come together on this, get on the front foot. If there’s folks we think it might help to make contact with by email or in person, it can’t hurt.

  313. Valerie
    Ignored
    says:

    A good sign. May has confirmed to Tusks that UK will not take up the presidency that UK was due on 1July 2017.

    Also, just some speculation. I was at a branch meeting last night, and we had Alyn Smith talking. Very impressive, passionate etc.

    Lots of my views confirmed – this opportunity is THE brass ring. Doors open in EU, that were never there before. Nicola very respected. Scotland only NOW being seen through fresh eyes, previously the jaded eye of UK behaviour.

    What is not so clear is timing of indyref2. Lots of juggling of views, and defo don’t want to look as if rushing.

    Defo an eye on council elections as being very important, and I can understand why on that.

    I think I will be voting for Alyn as Depute, because he wants to circle the wagons, and look at branch ops and structures. Music to my ears.

    I gave him a Wee Black Book:)

  314. KOF
    Ignored
    says:

    Jings! I give up! What’s the point in trying to raise something which I think is important to deal with? The UK government’s view is that Scotland would be leaving the UK, my point is that we are ending the UK. It would be good to work out all the permutations of it’s ending before the next referendum so we have the best answers to hand. Merely saying it’s not Scotland’s debt and we dinna want any o’ yer crap assets either, just doesn’t cut it.

    Oh, Brian Doonthetoon 00:00. “Your shift now?” I take it from that comment you believe me to be some sort of 77 Brigade Britnat troll? You couldn’t be more wrong.

  315. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andrew Mclean

    (You must be old)

    Only when I look in the mirror
    I think it’s why they invented electric shavers, I even use the big number phone

    Hen Broon slippers and everything, every damn Christmas they buy the things for me coz that’s just what you want when you’re getting nearer the exit door

    Reminders

  316. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    crazycat says:

    Thanks for that, confirms what I remember when it first was made public.

    While the SNP brought this up at Westminster, why are they not bringing it to the attention of the population,especially at this time when there is focus on Trident. It is a potentially very serious issue. Everyone should read this and use the info as another tool for Indy and getting rid of these subs.

    It really shows Westminster up for what they really are, and what Scottish lives mean to them. We mean nothing to them, just a means to an end.

    People must read this and let the implications sink in.

    Again,
    http://www.robedwards.com/2014/04/nuclear-bomb-companies-given-multi-million-pound-get-out-on-accidents.html

  317. Andrew McLean
    Ignored
    says:

    KOF says: 10:54
    The SNP did during the last referendum, it’s just they faced a solid wall of lies and misinformation, but I agree it is important, and we wont make the same mistake again, as for ending the UK, no such thing, it just will be 5 million less voters, it can still call itself the UK.

    As for not taking debt or discussion on assets, to have view of the books during due diligence is normal in commerce, but not in politics, a lot of the negotiation was to be left after the vote due to the intransigence of Westminster and the Treasury.

    Finally stop with the 77 brigade nonsense guys! you just sound daft, they a fine bunch doing a great job. not hanging around chat rooms playing footsie.

  318. Edward
    Ignored
    says:

    I see the Scotsman up to old tricks (well its an old dog etc etc)

    Headline states ‘Scottish Independence would bring five years of cuts’ but the actual cuts refers to Scotland being outside the EU. In the article its states that George Kerevan stated ‘the Scottish Government would need to cut spending to deal with the economic consequences of leaving the EU’

    But the story is actually based on the article in CITYAM ‘An independent Scotland inside the EU would be an economic powerhouse’

    Magnus Gardham (soon to be Tory spin cycle twat) also has a similarly twisted article the Herald

    Both articles being quoted by Ruth Davidson on twitter

    Davidson as ever twisting already half baked twisted idiot articles to suite her equally half baked agenda

  319. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    IR used the punt. Same value as a £. Exchanged in banks – same value. Until they went for the Euro. No big problem.

    NI receives Norwegian levels of funding from Westminster. 50% more than it raises. It also has greater powers than Scotland.

    NI (2million pop) raises £28Billion in tax revenues. It receives £14Billion (50%) more for Unionist votes at Westminster. = £42Billion.

    Norway 5Millon people raises £80Billion in taxes (and benefits from £500Billion Oil Fund).

    The trouble Westminster Unionists caused in Ireland. The illegal Partition of Ireland 1922. Universal Suffrage 1928.

    Scotland also has Oil & Gas on the West. Fishing farming, food stuffs, technology whisky, tourism etc. Scotland could grow it’s economy. It already exports more than it imports and balances it’s budget. It is not the currency that is used as a form of exchange. It is balancing the budget. That is important.

  320. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    KOF

    You know we would be ending the UK –

    I know we would be ending the UK –

    Mr Peffers will no doubt stand on top of Benarty Hill and shout it out for all to hear

    but down south their political ego would just be viewing us as plebby jocks LEAVING the UK.

    And, with a bit of luck, we could have told them what to do with the UK debt and gone our merry way before it hits them.

  321. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Yesperadas? Yesperati?

    Isn’t it a sign of how successful the 2014 YES campaign actually was that we so totally own the word “YES” even two years after an unsuccessful referendum? You can even change it to Aye, Oui, or Ja, and it just doesn’t matter, it’s still got independence written all over it.

    Tongue in cheek, should we take it as a given that whatever the question is on the next Indyref ballot, the pro Indy answer will be have to be a YES option? ?

    Just for fun we should try and capture nodding too. Anybody caught nodding is obviously a Yesser. Lol. Every time that Jackie Bird or Sally Magnussen looks down to check they haven’t deviated away from the BBC script, they’ll give a little nod of the head to Yeslandic people everywhere.

  322. Vambomarbeley
    Ignored
    says:

    Call Kay
    Woman from one of the trade organisations talking about how things are and how they will be. Kaye very quiet
    We all ready have our own notes. Issued by Scottish banks. We just need the coinage if we want something other than the magic hat wifey on it.
    Years ago in Germany you got a better rate for Scottish notes than English. They had a folder with copy’s of notes to compare with what you were giving them. The pictures in the folder were fotocopys in black and white. This was at the German post office.

  323. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    Our First Minister Needs 100,000 Signatures on her
    Anti- Trident petition.

    Anyone signing up can remain anonymous, if they chose to, via a Tick Box.

    One of you history making Wossers will be the 20,000th
    signatory any minute now.

    Please sign and share with family, friends, and Colleagues.
    Lets see the English War Mongers fight to pay the full cost
    of Trident themselves and have Death in a Metal Jacket
    in their own back yard.

    http://www.snp.org/scraptrident?mc_cid=7822341808&mc_eid=2ca6f3edb9

  324. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    What’s happened to Kaye’s show?

    I’m listening on DAB, just getting rolling music…nice Gaelic stuff too…

    Has PQ been overrun by cybernats?

    Half-expecting to hear the unmistakable voice of Ronnie Anderson at any moment, announcing the launch of Radio Free Scotland…

  325. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Just incase of any confusion re my post about ‘Yesperadas’

    I used the term ‘Yesperada’ because I am female men would be ‘Yesperados’

    PS Did the Eagles not do a song called ‘Yesperado’

  326. Peter McCulloch
    Ignored
    says:

    All the lies and scare stories peddled by the unionists about pensions, the currency, financial black hole etc.
    worked for them the last time in the independence referendum.

    They obviously believe with the uncertainty that Brexit creates they, they can ramp up the lies and scare stories.

  327. Chic McGregor
    Ignored
    says:

    @BDTT

    From memory in Perth we referred to 5 Bob as being a Dollar.
    Don’t remember half a Dollar, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t used. I think we tended to just say a half croon.

    I used to think that was because the US Dollar was approx 5 shillings in the dim and distant past but then I read an article where it claimed there was a ‘Dollar’ created in Scotland in the middle ages, one of the James’s, which was worth 5 Scottish shillings. A Scottish shilling being one English pence in value at the time.

    Of course, we have a town called Dollar as well but no idea where that comes from.

    If we were to create a new currency with a new name, I think something Scottish which also conveyed the idea of prudence would be a good choice e.g.s

    the Canny
    the Siccar
    the Docht

    Or still with implied resilience but with a tinge of enterprise too:

    the Smeddum

  328. DerekM
    Ignored
    says:

    Nice job Val 🙂

    Pass it about Alyn i am sure the EU parliament would just love to read it, big Guy that nice Dutch chap is your man i hear he likes facts and the truth.

    Makes you wonder though just how much disinformation gets out beyond this island,i have been hearing much the same the EU are a bit shocked now they see Scotland and not the mask the UK has pulled over us.

    Yoons what are they like always lying about something,Dear EU they are all mental please help send the cavalry.

  329. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Onwards says:
    20 July, 2016 at 10:48 am

    mogabee says:

    >”..a competition to design and name a new currency for an Independent Nation State?”
    ——–

    Oh God, no…
    That would just hand the yoons an open target.

    Ruby replies

    Oh God Yes…..

    I love this currency naming competition. There could be a special category for NObbers! The winner would get ‘The NOoby BOoby prize’. A £5 gift token for ‘Poundland’

  330. mike
    Ignored
    says:

    No currency competition please, can you imagine poundy mcpoundface, sounds too much like a description of the foreign secretary BawJaws.

  331. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Valerie (12.04) –

    One has to wonder on what grounds Mr Bercow rejected debate of the motion, and whether or not his judgement will ever be written anywhere for future reference…

    In the meantime – the Iraq War Families Group appeal rolls on…now past £72k:

    https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/

  332. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Colin Rippey
    Fascinating, you seem to be replying to postings replying to you, and others, with the 30 years. Fair play Colin / Kevin, it’s not 30 years, it’s 35 years, some work has already been done back to 1981. But no need to get yourself in a lather over it.

    For the rest of your comment, you seem to have this problem replying generically to Indy supporters who exist in your imagination as some single-thought entity. Well Colin / Kevin, we’re actually as individually different as Unionists and No voters are, and the undecided.

    The SNP, as Scottish Government, have been doing something about it. Bit by bit GERS is getting more accurate, with less per capita lumping together of “non-attirbutable expenditure”, but it’s a slow process as they have to get the Treasury to agree to do it. For information, the Welsh equivalaned GERW was scrapped a few years back.

  333. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Cruelly de Vile and the Unionist drunks at it again. Disgusting. Liars.

    Bring on IndyRef2

  334. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Just heard Angus Robertson show the House just how weak Thatcher 2 really is.

    Planet toryboy strikes back twitter style, yoonster circle jerking style below. All WoS seems to have done is highlighted the paragraph the yoon decide to exclude, as usual.

    ((( Neil Lovatt ))) Retweeted
    Keith Steele ?@KeithRSteele 6h6 hours ago
    Keith Steele Retweeted ((( Neil Lovatt )))
    @WingsScotland has always been a fraud @neiledwardlovat proves it yet again in under a day.

    Did Kevrage ever come back and tell us why yoonster toryboy’s like him keep using “fiscal transfer?” No.

  335. Mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    We now need the eu to stand up and tell us, in the run up to a second Scottish referendum. They will debunk any lies and scaremongering told by Westminster and their ebc trolls.

  336. Mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Meant to add, as we have no media in Scotland to fight our corner with the truth.

  337. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby
    That’s my fault, I should have quoted this from that SG doc:

    Extra-regio territory is composed of parts of a member state’s economy which cannot be assigned to a single land-based region. In the UK Regional Accounts produced by ONS, the extra-regio economy is treated as the thirteenth region of the UK, alongside Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the nine English regions. UK extra regio economic activity consists mainly of offshore oil and gas extraction,
    along with the activity of UK territorial enclaves such as overseas embassies and military bases

  338. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    mike says:
    20 July, 2016 at 12:13 pm

    No currency competition please

    Ruby replies

    Tut! What’s wrong with you guys afraid of a few yoons who might call the new Scottish Currency the skint or the nippy or some other idiot name.

    I think they should be allowed to join and and they should be given their own special category.

    ‘Poundy McPoundface’ is funny and on top of that it would help to generate publicity for the competition.

    How would have every heard of the boat naming competition if ‘Boaty McBoatface’ hadn’t been the winner?

  339. Soutron
    Ignored
    says:

    If we were a sovereign currency issuer, the cost of our ‘borrowing’ would be inconsequential. A sovereign fiat-currency-issuer can never be forced to default on debts issued in its own currency. Debts issued in a foreign denomination are another matter (see link for really good series on the UK and IMF in the 70’s and why that course of action was completely unnecessary: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=33803).

    I care about the interest on my credit card debt as my money is very much finite. If visa started accepting ‘Soutron Dollars’ it would be a lot less important to me.

    I would actually be happy to accept a share of the UK debt if it provided a negotiating advantage on other fronts so long as any debt was denominated in our own Scottish currency, not rUK sterling.

    Also, agree with Scottie Dog. No sterling-pegged pound. Let it float freely.

  340. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Thatcher 2 tells the House, Brexit’s an opportunity for the UK to head off around the world, in Trident nuke subs maybe. But dont worry, we’re not leaving Europe, just the EU, so its nice.

    The House is gagging to assure itself, “Don’t worry, we’ve still got Scotland.”

  341. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    20 July, 2016 at 12:30 pm

    @Ruby
    That’s my fault, I should have quoted this from that SG doc:

    “Extra-regio territory is composed of parts of a member state’s economy which cannot be assigned to a single land-based region.

    Ruby replies

    Sorry still not getting it. Could you make it more simple.

    Is fishing assigned to this Extra-regio territory?

    I’m asking on behalf of the lurkers who are afraid to post.
    Just following in Papko’s footsteps.

    I’ve already decided to vote YES my gut feeling tells me there is something definitely no right about this Union malarky.

  342. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Ooops typo’s in last post.

    should be idiotic name and who not how in

    Who would have every heard of the boat naming competition if ‘Boaty McBoatface’ hadn’t been the winner?

  343. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s a pound. End of.
    Why help the yoons by turning into a joke?

  344. Valerie
    Ignored
    says:

    @DerekM

    Scotland has not been in the EU per se, for the last 40 years, it’s been the UK, with all the bitching from various PM s, and the right wing Press. Alyn was clear about that, and the EU just thought indyref1 was internal strife, and didn’t pay much attention.

    Alyn says with Scotland voting to Remain by a large margin, just turned all their perceptions on their head. They ken noo, he said.

    MEPs are doing their own research, and realising how much value Scotland has in resources, and attitude.

    A wee personal story. He was contacted by some German rep who said his daughter, studying at Glasgow Uni, had been very grateful for the reassurances issued to EU nationals by Sturgeon. He offered to be of any help.

    It’s so much about image and conduct too.

    How do the belligerent, arrogant, pompous Tories imagine the EU, predicated on peace, wants politicians who bully and bluster, which is still going on.

  345. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby
    The important part is “the extra-regio economy is treated as the thirteenth region of the UK“.

    So though the UK gets the figures included, when the split is done by region – i.e. Scotland – it’s not specfically included for any region. So it would just be split per capita over all regions of the UK, I guess, rather than attempting to do it territorially.

  346. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    Because petitions are a total waste of time?

  347. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    Um, debt is not a prerequisite of trade.

  348. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart
    Well, if such a project were to be done, the SG would ahve to put it out to tender, so it could be any big 5 or 6 whatever the figure is these days.

    But on the other hand, such as PwC do have some sort of “New Business” or R&D department, and if they had at least an outline project plan in place they’d have some advantage over competitors. My reason for kind of wanting PwC having first-mover advantage, is that they were the first to react to Brexit by indicating movements to Scotland (Glasgow in their case where they have an office). Oh, and they do do a lot of unitary authority accounts audits in Scotland. Potentially they’re the good guys 🙂

    After the busy summer, I might knock together a “concept plan”, kind of a brief high level business plan, find out where to send it, and fire it off. Above my ability level but that never stopped me in the past. Never stoppped me my whole life in fact!

    Mmm, maybe I can get dibs for 1% of turnover …

  349. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Juteman says:
    20 July, 2016 at 12:51 pm

    It’s a pound. End of.
    Why help the yoons by turning into a joke?

    Ruby replies

    TUT! how is it going to help the yoons?

    I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    Humour is often the best way to get through to people. Even if they start of treating it as a joke the idea that there will be a new currency will become more acceptable.

    I like the currency naming competition I also like the idea of having a YES slogan competition.

    Would you be for or against that or should we do nothing just incase some Yoons decides to enter some idiotic slogan.

  350. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Valerie

    That is interesting!

    I really noticed the EU change in attitude the day after the Brexit vote.

  351. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    OT Oh Jesus, look at this: http://archive.is/RjKvO

    Same as before, no lessons learnt, a Scottish soldier dies in training in Wales on the hottest day of the year. Training clearly has to be hard to actually save lives on active duty, but some medical supervision and advice surely?

  352. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Yesindyref2

    ‘Mmm, maybe I can get dibs for 1% of turnover …’

    Never let an oppportunity go to waste. 😀 LOL

  353. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby.
    I don’t think there should be any joking when it comes to currency. Most folk that depend on the MSM for news and information need reasurance that their pensions will still be paid in pounds, not Poundy McPoundface, in my opinion. We will have to agree to disagre on that.
    Humour is great if used wisely.

  354. Vambomarbeley
    Ignored
    says:

    For the no voters. All you can do is keep chipping away at them like a dripping tap. I have got one just now who is obsessed with whisky barrels and the fact that they are not made in Scotland. I will blow him out of the water in a few hours when I get back up to Wester Ross. One of his previous was that Nichola had stopped him smoking in the pub. Sent him all the relevant info to the history of the smoking ban world wide. Not a peep. Hates Alec and Nicola with a vengeance. I suspect he’s a closet OO. Might have to break his legs before the next vote.

  355. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Yesindyref2 1.24pm

    That is simply tragic and I agree, it appears no lessons were learnt.

  356. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Juteman says:
    20 July, 2016 at 1:35 pm

    @Ruby.
    I don’t think there should be any joking when it comes to currency. Most folk that depend on the MSM for news and information need reasurance that their pensions will still be paid in pounds, not Poundy McPoundface, in my opinion. We will have to agree to disagre on that.
    Humour is great if used wisely.

    Ruby replies

    I don’t believe these people you are referring to will ever vote YES so it won’t matter what the currency is called.

  357. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    OT – the ongoing fun
    Made another posting, which hasn’t appeared yet, but one made later by someone else has done. My posts have appeared with the blogger’s reply at the same time, to dilute any effect and push mine back the ways so they’re not the last posting on the blog. Perhaps this is another dishonest trick, even if mine appears by the time it does it won’t be the most recent one, so it gets hidden. I’ve seen that trick used on other moderated blogs. It’s one of the reasons I don’t bother with moderated blogs, too easy for the moderator especially if he’s the blogger, to twist things to their purpose.

  358. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    yesindyref2

    That is a really tragic story.

    How come soldiers are dying of heat exhaustion in Wales. Does the same thing happen in Afghanistan and other hot climates?

  359. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    yesindyref2

    I read your post about blogs but I haven’t a clue what you are talking about.

    Is there perhaps part of your post missing?

  360. jcd
    Ignored
    says:

    Onwards 10.48

    Agree with you totally on that. It should be the Scottish pound or the Scots pound and forget all the silly names being thrown up (jokingly I presume).

    That implication or sense of continuity will, even if it’s illusory, help reassure some of the wavering fearties.

  361. Tam Jardine
    Ignored
    says:

    Ruby

    What amazed me about the RTS stats was that the overall gradual total UK beverage and tobacco exports performed a gradual increase when the individual countries exports appear to fluctuates wildly.

    The system is hard for me to understand but I know that our exports of beverages exceed that of a territory where not one drop is produced. So their practice is wrong. The tens of billions in the fuel and chemicals category need more investigation.

    One eye opening figure was the value attached to English exports of ‘machinery’ – in 2015 this appeared to amount to £90 billion but I will need to check it again. Arms industry exports on top of all the usual stuff – cars and jcbs and the like- still though- really?

    The unknown region includes relatively small things like channel islands and Isle of Man exports and other small stuff but the vast majority is made up of oil and gas and their derivatives plus a vast sum (I think it was £12.2 billion in 2012) on these mysterious transactions seemingly made by “Overseas traders registered in the UK” whose tax address is customs house in Aberdeen. Apparently if this were assigned to Scotland it would skew the figures.

    If you could look into this all and come back to us with a full report Ruby that would be great 😉

  362. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby
    Good question, he’d served 2 tours in Afghanistan. Perhaps it’s a mix of acclimatisation, and preparation (salt tablets or whatever, even clothing). Heatwaves in the UK are rare, specially a one day humid one like yesterday, I was on Arran and it was glorious – but then I had time to take my time working, no rush. Basically with yesterday being so unusual they should have cancelled the exercise, or done an alternative less rigorous one. But they don’t want to tell us that.

  363. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Oopsee! Someone’s offended the Americans

    Bryce
    ?@Bryce05953252
    @BBCJamesCook irresponsible journalism at best, supporting terrorism at worst. You glorified the terrorists and we will remember that

    James Cook ?@BBCJamesCook 14h Cleveland, OH
    James Cook Retweeted
    Reporting someone speaking at a rally (including a factual description) is not “supporting terrorists.” Obviously. https://twitter.com/Bryce05953252/status/755530887526125568
    James Cook added,

  364. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Ref currency these there would be much fun if it were open, but as others have said, we would just be made fools of.

    On the other hand the SG, could come to say 3 possibles, then let members only choose. Reason for that would be to stop yoons loading any open poll with garbage. There is a big membership, so different views would make sure the most popular won. Just a thought.

  365. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    James Cook is very prone to exaggeration, they’ll be on tae him soon enough in the states. The breathless Mr Cook promoted beyond his abilities…tae say the least.

  366. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby.
    Re the currency, i disagree that those voters are lost to us. They are exactly the type of voters we have to persuade to vote Yes. Small c conservatives.
    Knowing their pension will continue to be paid in pounds, Scots pound or otherwise, will go a long way to helping them make the move to Yes.
    Having the yoon media ripping the pish out of how many Poundy McPoundies will replace their security blanket pounds is an own goal. Imo.

  367. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    This is how I understand it…

    The three Scottish clearing banks – Clydesdale, Bank of Scotland and RBS – have the right to issue their own Scottish ‘pound notes’ but for every note issued, they must lodge an equal amount in Sterling with the Bank of England. I believe it’s around £4 billion.

    So for an independent Scotland, the clearing banks can withdraw their funds from the BoE and lodge them with a newly created “Scottish Central Bank”.

    Does that make sense?

  368. Greannach
    Ignored
    says:

    Has Tanktop got anything to say about shipbuilding?

  369. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Tam Jardine says:
    20 July, 2016 at 2:27 pm

    If you could look into this all and come back to us with a full report Ruby that would be great ?

    Ruby replies

    I’ll put it on my list of things to do. If I don’t get back to you before IndyRef2 I would suggest the safest bet would be just to vote YES. 🙂

    I’m off to check the Newspaper archives to see if I can find out anything about Extra-Regio.

  370. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Juteman says:
    20 July, 2016 at 4:23 pm

    @Ruby.
    Re the currency, i disagree that those voters are lost to us. They are exactly the type of voters we have to persuade to vote Yes. Small c conservatives.

    Ruby replies

    OK then no more talk about currency naming competition I’m a bit busy anyway looking into the Extra-Regio activity.

    Good Luck with these small c’s.
    Are you any good at hypnosis?

    PS Every time you type ‘Pound McPoundies’ it makes me laugh. 🙂

  371. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby
    Yes, that was a bit vague, rhyming with Hague. You’ll see what it’s about now in the current thread, for what it’s worth, my latest posting!

  372. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Colin Rippey
    Colin / Kevin, be a good Chappie and have a word with your Chum Kevin / yourself would you? Seems to have lost my latest posting to his blog, so I kindly re-posted it in the current thread on Wings. I’m sure he / you will be so pleased.

  373. Naina Tal
    Ignored
    says:

    Link to Manx Radio. Seem to be a bit less partisan than Wireless from the shortbread tin!

    http://www.manxradio.com/news/uk-news/spain-demands-answers-over-uk-sub-collision/

  374. tony Coyle
    Ignored
    says:

    Lots of interesting commentary here (I need to take more time to keep up)

    In terms of revenue differentials (which a lot of folks seem to harp upon) there are a few areas where GERS and similar measures simply tell lies:

    oil: I seem to recall that a major pipeline for North Sea Oil processing was terminated around Hull rather than Grangemouth (which already had the capacity and local infrastructure) with many reasons being touted including ‘better road communications’. AFAIR the majority of that oil comes from Scottish waters, not English, so there is a major imbalance (since that Hull-processed oil is considered English from a GERS perspective)

    Exports: people keep touting a huge 60b number that purportedly represents Scotland’s BoP deficit with England. How much of that is simple transhipment via English ports? Or production in Scotland with profits accounted by/and for English HQs? We already know of one, fairly unique, industry where the imbalance is obvious: Whisky is apparently worth only 500m to Scotland, but is worth more than 3bn to England – simply down to where the revenue or export is recorded.

    I’d expect there to be many similar cases, and as an Independent country, Scottish operations would need to actually account fully for their operations in Scotland, including transfers of profit (aka license payments to foreign owners)

    From all (unbiased) accounts, Scotland continues to run a surplus, while England is mired in a cycle of expensive, deficit-producing policies.

    Bring on IndyRef2, a Scottish currency, independent membership in the EU, and an independent place at the UN and with NATO.

    Scottish shipyards would have work building ships appropriate to a maritime policing force (aka US-based Coastguard)

    Scotland would be, with our friends in Dublin, the English speaking interface to the EU for Canada, the US and the other English speaking nations of the world.

    Our luxury exports would no longer be plagued by being tied to the UK (our premium beef, free from BSE, would be salable as a luxury in the US market for instance).

    Our image as a premier tourist destination would remain, and be bolstered, by our ability to promote Scotland as SCOTLAND, without dilution from south of the border.

    All we have to fear, is fear itself. Time to get the party going.



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