Our problems and how to solve them
As the winter Scottish political news drought enters its 17th week, mainstream and alternative media commentators alike are scratching around desperately for anything to write about, which tends to end up in overlong reflective and/or hectoring essays about how to secure independence, invariably concluding that what we need is for everyone in Scotland to start thinking and acting exactly like the author of the article.
We’re going to aim for something a bit shorter and more practical, at least.
Support for independence currently stands pretty stable around the mid-40-percents, as it has done give or take a few points since the 2014 referendum. Arithmetically-alert readers will note this means around 55% of voters would still vote to stay in the UK.
But who are they? Here’s a brief guide.
(PLEASE NOTE: THE FOLLOWING DEALS IN BROAD GENERALISATIONS. IT DOES NOT REFER TO EVERY LAST INDIVIDUAL IN THESE GROUPS. WELL, EXCEPT THE FIRST ONE.
1. God Save The Queeners
We did some polling in 2016 to find out how many people would never vote for independence under any circumstances, even if a nuclear accident turned the whole of England, Wales and Northern Ireland into a radioactive zombie-infested wasteland with nothing on TV except Celebrity Juice.
The figure, pretty much in line with our prior guesstimate, was 30%. These people are hopeless cases. You will only wrench the Union Jack out of their cold, dead fingers. Every leaflet put through their letterbox, every minute spent debating with them on the doorstep or online, is a pointless waste of time and resources.
If a genie were to grant us just a solitary boon over the Yes movement, it would be “STOP PEOPLE ARGUING WITH ULTRA-YOONS”.
How do we win them round? We don’t. We walk away and use the time to do something productive instead.
2. Pensioners
If only under-60s voted, Scotland would be independent already. But the elderly – and again, see the disclaimer above this list – are the political elephant in the room of not only Scotland but the entire UK.
By a hugely disproportionate margin they’re Unionist, Tory and pro-Brexit, and they have little else to do all day but make sure that they go out and vote in order to frustrate the dreams of their children and grandchildren. They WILL turn out, in person or by post, and they WILL do everything they can to prevent any kind of change, in Scotland as everywhere else. They like things the way they are, even when the way they are is terrible.
How do we win them round? There are probably very limited gains to be made here too. “Better Together” was pushing at an open door when it convinced them independence would cost them their pension, no matter how many times it was categorically proven it wouldn’t, and no matter how often it was pointed out that the UK’s pensions are just about the worst in the civilised world.
Pensioners voted overwhelmingly Conservative as usual in 2017 even after the Tories proposed a whole series of policies that would directly hurt them, and despite stuff like this:
If that didn’t put them off, we can’t think what would. So there probably isn’t much hope of making a serious dent in the grey vote any time soon.
3. Naive Corbyn groupies on the middle-class “radical” left
We’ve had some frustrating Twitter debates with independence supporters who voted “for Jeremy Corbyn” last year, even though they were actually voting for a local Scottish Labour candidate standing on a platform of implacable opposition to independence/the SNP and not much else.
We’ve tried patiently and politely, but always in vain, to get them to explain how a Scottish Labour MP could ever be better from the perspective of a left-leaning Yes voter than an SNP one. Both would vote to make Corbyn PM, but the Labour one would also vote for Trident and against a second indyref, and couldn’t be relied on to vote against austerity and welfare cuts.
But even if you assume that Corbyn (a) could ever win an election, and (b) would genuinely attempt to pursue a revolutionary socialist agenda in power, he’s 69 years old. By the time another UK election is due he’ll be 73 and if he somehow survived his enemies in his own party and made it to the end of a full term he’d be 78. And then what?
Measured over any substantial period, regardless of political trends, the UK votes Conservative almost two-thirds of the time. Labour had a majority government for just 19 years of the entire 20th Century. Even if Corbyn wins – and not many people think there’s any chance of that – the UK’s natural state of Tory rule would reassert itself soon enough.
(Even faced with the most stupendously, obviously hapless and incompetent UK Prime Minister in living memory Corbyn can’t manage to get ahead in the polls that consistently tell us more about who’ll win an election than any other – the ones about who people think would make the best PM.)
How do we win them round? It’s easy to see why at best, a Labour government under Corbyn would be a brief respite from the Tories, not a permanent solution. (And faced with Civil Service obstruction and Labour infighting it would probably achieve very little in however much time it had.)
But in our experience pro-indy Labour voters just go “LA LA LA LA LA” and stick their fingers in their ears no matter how gently you point this out, so any that have been lost are probably going to stay lost for the forseeable future.
4. Yes Leavers
Now, though, we’re getting somewhere. The seemingly unchanging nature of polling for independence conceals a much more interesting reality: in fact almost a third of Scots have changed their minds on the subject since 2014.
More than a quarter of No voters have switched sides on account of Brexit, but around a third of Yes voters have gone the other way, leaving the overall Yes/No numbers practically identical. If everyone who voted Yes in 2014 had stayed onside, we’d now be around 20 points ahead in the polls and independence would be all but politically unstoppable.
And since we know these people have voted Yes once already, we know they might do it again. As such, they represent the independence movement’s best chance by far of actually winning a second referendum.
How do we win them round? It’s very tempting just to be angry at Yes Leavers. While there’s a perfectly respectable argument to be made for leaving the EU (albeit one that’s currently disintegrating by the day), prioritising it over independence for Scotland if you want both of those things is simply logically irrational – for a whole slew of really obvious reasons, the chances of winning a second indyref from outside the EU are basically nil.
So you could just try to get people to see that. But a much better line of reasoning – which has the very considerable merits of being both true and transparent – is to say that the smart move with regard to leaving the EU is to let someone else be the guinea pig.
Because unlike the other way round, independence doesn’t make leaving the EU any more difficult. If Scotland votes for independence in the EU while the rest of the UK leaves, we get to watch and see how it works out for them before we make our own minds up about it.
If it all goes brilliantly – which seems unlikely now, but who knows? – then Yes Leavers can reasonably feel that they could win a subsequent Scottish Leave vote. After all, they’d be starting from a base of 38%, which is much better than the independence campaign started on in 2011.
If you want both independence and out of the EU, it’s possible to have both – but not if you leave the EU first. And if you go for indy first, you get to make the EU decision on a vastly better-informed basis than the UK did in 2016. It’s a win-win.
Some won’t like that idea. But at the end of the day, you don’t appeal to people by telling them they’re wrong, or idiots, or racists. (And you also, just by-the-by, don’t do it by handing control of your movement to people whose political history demonstrates that they couldn’t win a vote to be a nursery teacher if they were the only one who turned up to the interview with any trousers on.)
You win by showing people that what you’re proposing is the best way to get the things THEY want. Pitching EU membership as just another thing Scotland would get to decide for itself as an independent nation is the ONLY way of preserving it, but paradoxically is also a much better way of leaving the EU than just handcuffing yourself to the UK as it leaps out of an aeroplane blindfolded and wearing what might be a parachute or might be a satchel full of bricks.
Options, like time, are running out fast. We should probably focus.
Bang on!
Que faux outrage, over trousers vs skirts.
I am a pensioner and most of activists for Independence I know in Perthshire around Luncarty to Pitlochry are pensioners. In fact 60 % are compared to about 20% yound people and remainder 40 to 60.
So while younger percentage vote in greater numbers they dont do activisim.
“If you want both independence and out of the EU, it’s possible to have both – but not if you leave the EU first. And if you go for indy first, you get to make the EU decision on a vastly better-informed basis than the UK did in 2016. It’s a win-win.”
Needs to be said again and again.
But its fun.
My online chums of a ‘blue’ persuasion, both Tory blue and royal blue .. are as dumb as rocks. They don’t understand anything at all, but continually post fartbook and twitter crap that drags me in.
I love to re-use this ironically, to help smart people who are pro-indy see how dumb they are. I win nothing, but oddly, my most recent convert (pro-blue to pro-Scot) was moved on how stupid it made him look.
Go figure, but that 30% is where the BBC/MSM aims its signal.
Spot on!
If someone doesn’t like the whole of the independence proposals, they have a much better chance of changing the bits they’re agin in indyScot than in the UK.
It’s like the republican who inexplicably favoured independence but voted against because the white paper said the queen would remain head of state. Would an indyScot go republican? – maybe. Would the UK? – nae chance!
“Go figure, but that 30% is where the BBC/MSM aims its signal.”
And like it or not, it’s an incredibly powerful signal that we have no real means to combat.
Great post Rev and timely.
New Scots may also prove a promising avenue. Whether originating from the European continent or further afield, those who voted no last time round from this demographic can’t be entirely impressed with the direction the UK has taken.
Their help and their vote would be more than welcome.
Yup. A lot of the Yes/Leavers I know are well aware of this, but there are many who seem taken in by Tory arguments (“Why leave one union but not the other,” “we voted as One United Kingdom” etc), as surely as many habitual Labour supporters have been taken in by the promise of Corbyn.
What I find interesting is that all parties except the SNP are making a concerted effort to deflect from leaving the EU. Labour are campaigning for an election that isn’t happening (yet), the Tories are alternating between pretending everything’s fine and everything’s the horrible EU’s fault, and the Libs are still dancing on the head of a pin about referendums. It’s almost as if they know fine well that everything’s going to go to absolute hell, but they’re hoping to spook the SNP into delaying a referendum until it’s far too late. That they’ve managed to convince so many prominent indy supporters to do so (even some suggesting going for a new mandate in 2021) should suggest the dire straits they’re in.
Brilliant.
This should inform everybody’s strategy.
One scenario that has not been painted.
Scotland gains independence and leaves the EU.
England leaves the EU.
Now we have two countries isolated from the biggest market that have to gain new trade deals who wins?
Because there is now a common goal, barriers between Scotland and England would have to be broken down, merging of commerce would be a start to allow free movement of trade. there may well be a new merger of understanding between the two countries in effect becoming a new United kingdom. Who wins in that scenario?
There is a pensioners for indy group now.
Hopefully they can make in roads into the persistent pensioner Nos
And before folk tell me they’re a Yes pensioner, so am I but it doesn’t detract from the fact the majority are not.
There has also been several tales of very old folk in homes getting their postal votes filled in for them, how do we stop that?
On twitter today someone said his next door neighbours, pensioners, no voters now want to join the SNP and would vote Yes because their son in law is an EU citizen and will likely get deported.
They’re changing their minds for selfish reasons but so be it.
There will be others.
Spot on, Rev. We need to target very carefully and strategically.
We also need to make sure IndyRef2 happens BEFORE Brexit. That way we can ensure our EU friends living in Scotland are not disenfranchised. And we need to get each and every one of them to back YES (I think that’ll be pushing against another open door). That way we get the ‘full-swing’ benefit and not just a half-swing benefit of NO losing a big chunk of their majority in IR2014.
Think a lot of the YES/Leavers are more than likely hoping for a Norway kind of scenario which they don’t get if Scotland gains independence in time for a near seamless continuation of it’s membership.
In some ways that might even be an optimal solution and certainly would be where we’d end up if we left our independence bid too late.
The Republican argument is really a non starter as plenty of Commonwealth countries relegate the Queen to the sidelines and are republicans in all but name. Even then a constitutional monarchy avoids the alternate history scenarios where Prime Ministers were elected as presidents and had some meaningful power. Imagine May being allowed to negotiate Brexit without any interference.
The pensioner argument isn’t going to be as relevant as time goes on as more and more will have works pensions. Perhaps negatively affected by governmental mismanagement.
Corbynism is where you see the trendy leftists who were only in it for either self aggrandisement or genuine belief hitching their wagons to a party they think they can use to gain control. Even then some might be agents provocateur intent on spliting opposition. Much as the universal campaign to split votes more than was sensible in the last Holyrood election might have been a ploy dreamed up by those opposed to independence.
You missed out Brits and the Right who were never really engaged with the last time.
But to combat EU brexit wobbles, have a double question.
1. Do you want an indy Scot yes/no
2. If yes going ok want an indy Scot to leave or remain in the EU leave/remain
Gives both sides of the EU debate he option o vite yes for indy first.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again we need a two question indy ref
1) Should Scotland be in independent country. Yes/No
2) If Scotland becomes independent should it be part of the EU? Yes/No
Just like the tax raising powers on the devolution vote.
Now that you say it, it’s obvious! With independence you have 2 choices, without it you have none.
Looking back, the polls before AS called the referendum were about a quarter for Indy, so everything to play for, the alternative is sitting on a rock in the Atlantic with “Rule Britannia!” playing on a loop forever.
Sad as it may be but I reckon offering some sort of guaranteed cash incentive would get the no voters turning in their droves. It’s that simple. The I’m alright jacks. A pension increase? A raising of annual leave days? A few hundred quid extra in the pay packet? Or heaven forbid the complete scrapping of the yoon telly tax. It’s the “what’s in it for me brigade” that needs targeting. That’s what I gathered after campaigning on the streets for ten months last time out. It’s was an eye opener seeing how inherently greedy people are. Exhibit A-clearing of the food shelves last week.
‘If a genie granted us a single wish over the Yes movement, it would be “STOP PEOPLE ARGUING WITH ULTRA-YOONS”.’
Lol, I had a debate with a raver a few months back where he wanted proof of my claims that the BBC was politically corrupt and protectors of pedophiles. After quite a bit of time and investment providing all the proof that any reasonable minded person would need or accept, he/she refused to accept or listen to the actual facts.
Definitely sound advice. When it becomes apparent that you are dealing with a knuckle dragger, (and lol, once you get the hang of it, that can be very quick), you need to move on.
Good article. A few observations and opinions.
1) I agree that IndyRef2 has to be about Scotland being close to (I would prefer in) the EU. It seems a good argument to Yes/Leave folks … let’s watch how it turns out for England. You never know, we might all get a surprise (I don’t think).
2) There’s another group. There are people whose demographics would suggest they should be YES but don’t vote. Turn out in NO areas is higher – they vote. There could be a lot to be gained by pursuing people who don’t vote and encouraging them to get out.
3) What you say about hardcore BritNats is true – difficult nuts to crack. I suspect for a minority of them their loyalty to the British state is financially motivated rather than nationalism. This group should be reminded that in 2014 Indy seemed the risky option, perhaps with Brexit they should reappraise which option holds most risk for them personally.
4) I believe elderly NO voters could be influenced by a commitment to bring iScotland pensions up to the EU average and through time above.
I’m guessing the EU message would be different this time too. I reckon a lot of Scots were annoyed at the way the EU acted last time. Hopefully this time our membership would be 100% confirmed with the added sweetner of us keeping the rebate.
So, question. Is that what Nicola has been planning for all along ?
Sometimes the only way to focus a person’s mind on a negative ,is to let them experience it.
Why try to “win” them round? There are 4 arguments in a referendum change + not status quo on one side and status quo + no change on the other.
If we can make the status quo unbearable we dont need much of change to win. We are effectively framing the contest as a certain loss of £500 on the status quo versus a lottery ticket on a loss of £1000 on indy. People hate losing.
Yes came so close last time but there was no “Not No” campaign from us and there should have been. No won because their Project Fear framed the choice as people losing if they voted Yes. Lets turn it round and we frame the choice as people losing if they stay in the UK. Brexit is our ally.
What we need is the BBC, no not that one, its the Britain Bad/Bust/Broken Conversations that we should be having and having them now. We dont need a referendum called or a Yes campaign to be set up, we can start setting the parameters for the referendum by starting to make the staus quo intolerable right now. Start your next conversation with “What a state Britains in.”
We will win by not losing
I don’t entirely give up on the pensioners as a bloc yet.
Shirley Williams was making an interesting point on telly just yesterday (in reference to the EUref, but the same applies) by reflecting that the old had in effect betrayed the young by voting against their wishes even though their chosen future was not going to be one they would inhabit.
(Yes, I know there are many pensioners who think differently, but we’re talking group stats here.)
The answer, I believe, is to have a grassroots campaign by the young that is specifically targeted at old folk. By grandchildren to their grandparents if possible, but not exclusively so. Including kids too young themselves to vote. Young folk appealing to old folk to bequeath them their desired future. Just as their wartime forebears had done for them in their turn.
Instead of dismissing old folk as a lost cause, give them an opportunity to look forward and pass on something worthwhile instead of merely hanging on grimly to a long-gone past.
I believe that there are many who could be inspired by such a positive and engaging campaign.
Sadly a measurable “negative brexit effect” might be required to get a 50+% majority for independence. This might not occur until we are actually out of the EU – or even longer depending on nature of the transition deal.
So far many people wrongly believe it is business as usual…
Though no doubt the unionists are bricking themselves at mess they have created.
Patience and timing is key.
Taranaich says:
Indeed. Among all their chaos and indecision, that seems one policy they are focused on and committed to. Hold out until 2021 and win Holyrood with a BritNat majority. Or, after Brexit change the constitutional arrangements to make IndyRef2 impossible. Either way, they are playing for time.
The article offers some sensible approaches. We just have to be aware that the Unionist propaganda will not tire of telling us that we’ll be outwith the EU anyway, and so we should best stay with England because of our trade, Blablah. We therefore need a cogent argument or demonstrable suggestion from the EU that iScotland would be fast-tracked for continued membership. And with that I mean something that seems logical and is easy to communicate.
Don’t diss Celebrity Juice! It’s a great way of humiliating ‘famous’ people 🙂
The future of Scotland is tied to the mortality rate and the coming of age vote marker.
Sad when it should be awareness of the facts.
…none so deaf / none so blind etc
A few other things to tempt undecided or soft-no voters:
1. Right to buy (at a fair price) for ALL tenant farmers and other rural businesses e.g. holiday parks.
2. Fair taxes on all rural estates including Balmoral to raise funds for rural development.
3. Debate and referendum on the monarchy.
4. Elected upper chamber.
5. Modern and fair system to recognise outstanding public service.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Yes. What greater gift can voters today pass on to the generations to come than a fair, just, and democratic iScotland?
It’s a very positive message.
liz says:
5 March, 2018 at 1:42 pm
There is a pensioners for indy group now.
Hopefully they can make in roads into the persistent pensioner Nos
For anyone who is a pensioner here are links to the Pensioners 4 Indy group’s Twitter and Facebook pages.
link to twitter.com
link to facebook.com
Like Liz I too have heard, mostly via Twitter, of quite few pensioners changing from NO to Yes via the work of their neighbours/family. Not only that but these pensioners have then managed to go on and change some of their pensioner friends as well.
So far so good but as we all know there is a great deal still to do.
The biggest elephant in the room for me, like Liz, is how to stop “others” filling in the postal vote forms of those living in old folks homes and postal vote fraud in general. For me the way ahead HAS to be e-voting. If a small country like Estonia can do this, and has been doing so for a number of years now, then why can’t we? If my memory serves me right after Estonia turned to e-voting the voter turnout percentage went UP and has continued to remain at a high level.
How do we reach the soft no voters that never venture outside the MSM, it’s a conundrum that yes hopefully can address. I don’t have the answer, to me it seems an almost an impossible task.
A daily broadcast news, probably only internet as freeview is probably cost prohibitive, to give an alternate reporting of the campaign to combat the ‘balanced’ BBC approach. Reporting facts not just parroting the handouts from the campaigns, should be no fear here for yes as it should expose the just made up nonsense from the no campaign.
The problem is would this look professional enough to be taken seriously, someone just standing in front of their bookcase is only going to attracted the already committed. The budget and facilities are still a issue here.
This broadcast has the potential of reaching a large proportion of under 60’s, but unfortunately not the MSM only crowd. It may in the end not be feasible due to cost and we should remember the no side will have even more cash to set up an opposing view.
The problem with the two question referendum is an obvious one:
Should Scotland be in independent country. Yes/No? – Majority say No. Second question, no matter how it is worded, is irrelevant.
Wouldn’t this approach depend on our having some kind of indication from EU that Scotland could continue to be a member after Indy vote vote but before Brexit transition? Very tight schedule. Is it even possible?
Just in case anyone questions care home resident numbers, the last care home census put numbers of elderly residents at under 37,000. Others in care of voting age were around 17, 000. Various physical conditions and applications of care such as Incapax would probably mean a vote Base of around 35,000 eligible to vote. Doesn’t seem that much in the scheme of things.
What have the Tories ever done for us, is a good question to ask any No Voters.
Also , lets get free from England then watch what leaving the EU does to them before we decide to leave or stay. A good suggestion to put to doubters.
Great read.
One of the saddest aspects of NO voting is clearly that Scots with very little, are terrorised that they will definitely lose what little they have, by SLabour, BBC, all 37 British newspapers etc.
Its a very dirty business this UKOK rule of Scotland but great rewards too. Just ask Labour Lord Darling of Roulanish and board member of Morgan Stanley.
To the conquerors, go the spoils…
Hans Gruber, Die Hard.
One of the Hundred @ 13:55, 13:57,
Roger Hyam @ 13:55,
Oh dear, the multi-question referendum bogeyman is back again.
Which is exactly the opposite of what Stu’s article is saying, BTW.
What we emphatically don’t need is a campaign in which people are arguing crosswise about issues all over the place and consequently with no focus on anything. That’s the way divide-and-rule works, and we all know to whose advantage.
We can’t have everything decided neatly-and-tidily in one referendum, it just isn’t possible.
On the other hand, there’s also an anti-democratic campaign going on at the moment, including alas in the letters pages of The National, trying desperately to shut down on options for the future before we even have a chance to decide for ourselves as a fully-sovereign nation. That’s not right either, and also serves only to work for the Union.
I believe that the vast majority of Yes-Leavers, when faced again with the single crucial issue of independence, will respect the EURef vote as was even though disagreeing with it, and take the Main Chance along with the rest of us.
And as Stu suggests, keep alive the possibility that we can all freely change our minds once time does the talking.
Independence First!
joemcg @ 2.03
I agree 100% with the argument about bringing pensions up to the U.K. average and spelling it out in big black letters on billboards around the country. A firm promise within one year of independence.
Few pensioners know (it is concealed from them) just how poor their pension is. .
I believe this could swing many hundreds of thousands to Yes.
Regarding the ‘why give up London rule to be ruled by Brussels?’ argument. Of course, it is utter nonsense, really, as you are effectively removing one layer of government above Holyrood only and it’s not even as if Brussels would claim power over the ‘reserved’ issues currently subject to Westminster rule. But this argument seems to resonate with some people who can’t quite get their heads around it.
So maybe the tack to take with some of them is to say ‘why leave the EU/Brussels rule just to be ruled by Westminster?’.
It’s politically illiterate but is perhaps nearer to right than the argument put forward the other way because there is quite a good chance that Westminster WILL claim power over Scotland in the devolved policy areas relinquished by Brussels in the process. And it might be the only way to get to people who seem to only understand the concept of their being ‘one ruler over us’.
@joemcg
You do know that voting for independence will automatically SCRAP the BBC telly tax ?
Correction. That should be “up to the EU average”
My main concern (as a Yesser and a Remainer) is the notion of any kind of hard border between an EU Scotland and a non-EU England, a la the likely outcome with Eire/NI.
If it can’t be made possible in Ireland then it can’t be made possible in mainland Britain.
No-one believed Milliband when he talked about a hard border if he were PM, in 2014, but the very real prospect of one this time around may well sway large numbers to No.
Dead right that increasing focus is now essential as the fleeting window of opportunity approaches.
Some kind of slogan which readily encapsulates independence now with an EU(remain/exit) free hit experience opportunity, courtesy of Brexit is required.
Keeping the message simple will be more likely to resonate.
@Colin Dunn
We are not going to get any direct statements from the EU for a couple of reason. First they will not intervene in a members internal politics and secondly they would look pretty foolish if having said Scotland would be fully integrated we then voted against them.
Right, win independence first by opposing Unionists who don’t want an independent country
Secondly, make a fair assumption that those same Unionists will support a move to join the EU ,making up somewhat for the number of independence voters who will vote against joining the EU as an independent country.
My head hurts.
It is going to be hard to turn around the older vote but, just maybe, if Brexit is a dog’s breakfast, they might think again about putting on the rose tinted spectacles. The Orange Lodge, Queen and Country contingent will never move and indeed might get quite unpleasant if an independence is successful. We will not win over everyone.
However, if we can just motivate the under 60s to go out and vote in numbers and persuade the 70/30 split in favour of No in the over 60s to come down to 60/40 or 55/45 then we should see a 55/45 or better vote in favour of Yes.
How about referring to Indy as “The Fifth Freedom”? Could we agree on that?
Logo: an open hand held up, showing “4 + 1”.
“the chances of winning a second indyref from outside the EU are basically nil.
——–
This is what I kept trying to tell pro-indy friends who voted to leave. Imagine a second Project Fear campaign tied to England outside the EU..
The same with those indy supporters voting for some Labour drone to give Corbyn a chance. Instead of a pro-Scottish MP who could extract concessions first.
It’s like chess. Some people just can’t see more than one move ahead.
@One_Scot says: 5 March, 2018 at 2:03 pm:
“If a genie granted us a single wish over the Yes movement, it would be “STOP PEOPLE ARGUING WITH ULTRA-YOONS”.
Yes, One Scot, I met, (head on), with one of those in a local supermarket. I was, as usual, wearing my woolly hat with the YES badges thereon. This guy decided to have a right go at me.
The store is far too small, (now about to be extended), and so was rather crowded. The guy gave me a right sherraking for being a YES supporter and was firing absolutely crazy questions at me – far too fast to actually answer anything. It came across rather like a child reciting Mary had a Little Lamb.
I didn’t get upset, (but did step back a pace to avoid the flying spittal). When he eventually ran out of breath I said, “So with the answers to all those questions you’ll be voting YES then?,and off he went again.
In the end he couldn’t make his case and walked out of the store. To my great surprise a got a round of applause.
Another angle to the Rev’s brilliant analysis about pensioners and their attachment to the Status Quo is to offer Scottish Independence as a way to keep things as they are.
Realistically, there’s very little in our everyday life that’s not already entirely Scottish.
We have a Scottish health service, police, rail franchise, traffic management agency, water board, bus operators, law and courts, education, parliament, government, telecom operators, internet exchange node… and I’m sure I forgot many other things.
A welfare agency and a national investment bank are afoot.
We also have our own currency, like it or not. Look in your wallet.
We are also blessed with abundant natural resources to feed, dress, keep warm and dry everyone living here. And more. And more.
Anything that’s shared at UK level, is either not as we’d want it (like “defence” or broadcasting) and must be made from scratch anyway, or once we’re gone can be deployed quickly and at zero cost reusing redundant UK resources (offices and personnel) that were assigned to serve Scotland – for example, the HMRC Cumbernauld office would become a redundant burden for rUK.
By the way, has anybody noticed that most new cars on Scottish roads have a registration plate starting with S? Yes, look around you.
We are ready.
On day one, and Independent Scotland would continue to function exactly as it does now and with no changes forced by Brexit. What’s not to like, grandpa?
“If Scotland becomes independent should it be part of the EU? Yes/No”
And yet, Indycar GR said in one of his vlogs that when Independence happens, that both Scotland and rUK are automatically out of EU and would have to (if wished) reapply. He did not anticipate that would be a difficult thing to achieve.
If that is the case, it sort of turns the argument around a little… although we might then find the Rees-Moggs and Bojo’s lending enthusistic support to Indy(!)
Mostly policies by politicians mean nothing to most people because mostly opinions are formed by ideology personality and even just down to how much somebody likes your face even if you tell lies, because it’s the way you tell them that counts
We’re all used to lies and many of us know them when we hear them but there are many who like the lies if it fits the ideology of what’s already fixed in their heads
So what or how does one combat evolution and human nature
which still dictates confrontational and hostile behaviour to belong to a tribe
As Stu describes in his article it’s virtually impossible to ask people to change tribes even with the most reasoned and truthful of arguments even if the proof beyond doubt shows them to be wrong
Well there might be a solution to that but no one would enjoy taking the medicine for that solution, which might be to arrange for others with no vested interest in the discussion at hand, just as in say a marriage counciller or indeed a court of arbitration to remove responsibilty of judgement or blame from the protagonists
The Solomon solution!
Which I think might have been the original aim of the much maligned European court of justice or even the United Nations, then again the difficulty with that solution is that the human race evolves at different speeds and only the elightened minds would be willing to accept solution by arbitration, whereas the unevolved micro brained low foreheaded mitt fisted Gunkfucks of the Unionist persuation would rather stick their collective fingers in what passes for their ears and scream…..NAW!
Evolution eh, not for enough of the many quick enough and it’s only ever on the telly when Dancin up the jungle wae a celebrity who’s dining with me’s on
Joemcg 2.03pm. I agree Joe, most of today’s society is all about me me me!. So cash incentives in the form of pension age reductions. Women back to 60. Lower tax bills, etc,etc, all funded by our not paying for trident, and the southwest of England’s infrastructure.
And just to add to the state Britains in now, the airline agreement that UK and USA will have to agree when we fall out of the EU in March next year isnt a sunny upland at all, its worse than the one we have as part of the EU!
If its a return ticket you are after its KLM SAS or Air France 😀
geeo-I didn’t actually! Is that a cast iron guarantee? Maybe it needs shouted from the rooftops. The only thing I was aware of was the threat that we would lose Dr Whae!!
so it is a no to tying a yes vote in indyref2 to automatically rejoining the eu.
I’m glad you said it stu, i’ve been saying this for months and getting pelters for doing so.
i would however support SM & CU access via EFTA to a yes vote in indyref2.
that does not mean a second question, just the same question as indyref1.
I think we made a mistake producing the 640 page scotlands future paper, the brexiteers had only 2 pages of manifesto commitments.
indeed, in the 1999 referendum we voted yes/yes but the actual details of what we voted for were not finalised until after the result, ie we got tax raising powers which no one could use, indeed the new tax powers hamstring holyrood almost as badly.
You pointed out in an article a while back (reviewing poll data i believe) that we would need another euref in scotland after we voted for indy. i agreed with this then and agree with it now.
for remainers who think this is a betrayal i would simply say, then vote no and you will definitely be out of the EU.
i think it is a no brainer
Not read all the comments above so forgive if I missed something.
Have we forgotten that the SNP sent a rep to Norway to discuss the EEA? This appears to me the best way to win Indyref2 an Independent Scotland in the EEA which may appeal to the Eurosceptic Yes voters and bring them back. Well at least most of them.
I think the SNP are on the right track.
What a lot of these less well off no voting pensioners fail to realise,is that if Scotland doesnt get independence, the first thing to go after brexit will be their winter fuel allowance,’guaranteed’. Along with.all the other welfare credits they get help with at the moment, bus passes etc. Then the erosion and privatisation of the SNHS .a post brexit Scotland in this union just doesn’t bear thinking about, God help us all.
Just wait till they keel over.
EU citizens could vote in IndyRef1. They can vote in ‘devolved’? elections? They can’t vote in GE.
Support increased in IndyRef1. Campaign. Doubled. From 27% to 45%. It has increased further.
I was in sales for a large part of my career and one of the fundamental things I learned was that people won’t buy something just because you want them to buy it or because it’s ‘the right thing to do’. So smart sales people don’t think, “This person should buy my product because if he/she does it’ll help me get my target”, rather they think, “What is it that this person wants to achieve and how could my product help him/her to achieve it?”
That being so, you have to tailor your sales message to the individual. One American sales manual referred to this as the ‘just s’pose’ technique.
“Just s’pose my product could help you achieve your goal, would you buy it?”
If the answer is “Yes” then the only barrier is price.
O/t i spoke to a retired tory voter yesterday who just came back here to England after 18yrs in Spain. He was moaning that last winter 2016 in Spain they didn’t get their winter fuel allowance. When pointed out it was his own party who stopped it( thats another debate). He stared at me with a vacant expression. Like a sheep would.
I’m going to disagree with this article.
There is no such thing as a voter who can’t convert to YES, except maybe a few extreme activists.
Zeebeving says:
And yet, Indycar GR said in one of his vlogs that when Independence happens, that both Scotland and rUK are automatically out of EU and would have to (if wished) reapply. He did not anticipate that would be a difficult thing to achieve.
————-
the eu has also said an indy scotland would need to apply via A49. i believe they said this for their own internal political reasons but I think this is nothing more that an issue of process and that were we to reapply for eu membership the process would be very quick
It kinda backs up stu’s position too, ie we cannot offer in indyref2 automatic eu membership when it is not ours to give.
as for the eu being more accomodating during indyref2, they might be, but dont count on it. Even if they were, i doubt the MSM would even mention it, the bbc will find an MEP or eurocrate who will say NON, and that is what will be reported
Bobp says:
We need our own Project Fear next time focusing on exactly that. Not made up or exaggerated scaremongering like BT last time, just an independent appraisal based vision of a UK future.
Our main effort should be positive, however under the new circumstances of Brexit, we need to highlight the considerable negatives of a NO win.
If we are not guaranteed contiguous membership of the EU then I assume there would need to be a vote to rejoin after independence. It could be Scotland first post democratic decision as a nation.
I think we would need to be in the SM & CU or why else are we claiming to want a different outcome from the current UK if we don’t.
We need a more dynamic and centralised YES movement, like we had in Indyref1 if we want to increase the YES vote. It may not have been perfect but it got us to 45% and chances are with the same effort we could go way beyond that now.
I think there may be a way to persuade some pensioners either to vote YES or, at least, not to vote NO. I was 66 in 2014 and don’t think I persuaded one of my contemporaries to vote yes. (It’s not that I can’t be persuasive as many under 60’s I talked to moved to YES)
Generally, the most important people in pensioners’ lives are their grandchildren so for this section of the electorate we probably can only get to them through their grandchildren. We can ask them to talk to their grandchildren and find out what future they want. If they can’t bring themselves to vote in the same way as their grandchildren ask them to at least not vote against them.
My generation, the baby boomers, have been blessed and the future does not belong to us.
The best birthday present EVER…
link to imgur.com
Thanks for this Stu. These are the best posts. Constructive and makes us think where we are going wrong and how to tackle the “deficit.” Conversely I wonder if we have a hardcore of 30% yes voters who would never waiver no matter what. I hope so.
yesindyref2 says:
5 March, 2018 at 3:16 pm
I’m going to disagree with this article.
There is no such thing as a voter who can’t convert to YES, except maybe a few extreme activists.
—————-
I’m not sure he is saying that, I think he is pointing out groups of voters who are more likely to be converted to yes than others. You taylor your campaign to appeal to the greatest number. nothing wrong with that.
that is why he suggested another euref after indyref2, he believes this will have the greatest appeal.
i adjouted that tying SM & CU via efta would have an even greater appeal for the same reasons.
that doesnt mean abandoning other campaign technics, my constituency has one of the largest over 65 population anywhere in scotland. I think Robert J. Sutherland’s idea to get youngster to canvas pensioners is imminently sensible and my local yes group intends to run exactly this type of campaign.
GALAMCENNALATH 3.17PM exactly our project fear with facts and figures to back it up. Fight better together and ebc msm lies.
Well written. The God save the queeners is a throw back from Anglicisation as Scotland went auto on Calvin as with England on Luther. Ireland was rescued by the Jesuits and Rome to prevent conversion even with the plantations and the migration from Scotland. I agree on Corbyn he is a loser and he has called Brexit as daft as the Tories. I agree on the time is running out but Nicola is a top politician and if anyone can bring it off she can. Otherwise its a no no.
My argument is often to say to a NO voter Oh so it’s OK for England to #Overrule Scotland.
This gets the discussion onto the basics of democracy.
We can win with this tactic by appealing to people’s sense of fairness.
Status-qhuoism is a safe haven for lots of older folk.
If they think England/UK is taking them for mugs they’ll swing to Yes. No doubt.
As I described earlier changing minds is really really difficult but changing behaviour can be easier, Better Together did it with fear and then more fear and followed that up with scaring people shitless saving them from having to use their limited ability to absorb facts
And they won
@RP
I had the same experience in my local coopy, i waited until he stopped ranting then said,
I’ll put you down as a maybe then?
i didnt get a round of applause but loads of folk burst out laughing
Ken500
Re Eu Nationals, according to front page of National today a report claims that after Brexit and during a transitional period EU Nationals will not be able to vote in the UK.
We must therefore have a referendum this autumn (Sept 20th) I think would be the most appropiate date. Short three month campaign , started at SNP Conference in June ,
After Scotland becomes an independent country the political landscape will have to change. Might the SNP, mandate achieved, fragment and do a UKIP? And would three unionist parties morph into something useful? To anti-SNP fanatics an argument could be made that the most effective way of diminishing SNP influence would be to remove their raison d’être by voting for Scotland to become and independent country.
Scotland would be better in the EU for human rights etc. Devolution gains were based upon. The EU could help finance. The EU funded, (loans & laws – right to self determination) and supported independence movements in Europe. 70% in Scotland want FFA and more devolved powers. How will they react to the Tories power grab?
The Tories could not make a bigger mess. Labour are useless. Corbyn should step aside to win in the rest of the UK.
@
gala
how about a project fact?
mothercare
carpetright
maplins
toysRus
all gone or going bust
Should have also added to my 2.58pm post.Also England’s illegal wars. Ie 2017 mod spent £1.75 billion bombing the s**t out of Iraq.
Don’t give up on the pensioners……Nicola is a still prize asset.
My elderly relative was a No voter and lifelong Tory supporter.
In her 92 year she gave up on religion and voted for the SNP for the first time.
I don’t think they were connected.
Retired people and the unemployed etc are good campaigners because they have the time. Often other people are too busy to get involved with campaigning activities. 1/3 of older voters still voted for Independence. That should be appreciated.
How can they stop EU nationals voting in IndyRef2. If they voted the last time. Depends on who decides?
1. Infyref 2 must occur pre brexit. This is ever more obvious.
2. Independence is about independence. We’re selling the idea of self governance, we are NOT selling the future that comes after it. I really wish a lot of radicalists would realise that this vote is about independence, not what we do next- that’s for general elections.
3. Genuinely the best thing that could happen is Corbyn retires or is ousted in a coup. He is not really a radical socialist and has no policies that lean that way, but the cult of personality around him is so great. If anyone else took over (even without changing the policies) I reckon 50% of the people the yes movement “lost” to labour when Corbyn came in would be back. That may even be enough on its own to reach past 50%
I’m a regular attender at SNP conferences and assorted YES group events. The majority in attendance always seem to be of my generation (I’m 67). So, although the 65+ turned out in huge numbers for No, there does seem to be an active minority who could make the case to their peer group. Certainly 2014 was very badly handled so far as currency, pensions and military resourcing were concerned. Hopefully next time it will be agreed in advance that rUK can keep their pound and indy Scotland will have a military budget £1 billion lower than Scotland’s “share” of the current UK budget with the £1 billion “saved” allocated to social care and pensions 50/50. Not sure how many pensioners there are in Scotland – call it 1m. If that is anywhere near right, there you have £500 per pensioner. A bribe, YES, but we are in it to win it.
Far be it from me, a mere Welshy, to give advice to Scots – although, I know the majority here share the view that independence for our respective nations is what we seek. Sometimes, however, I fell blessed in, hopefully, “seeing ourselves as others see us” – I am after all, a non-Scot.
Firstly, I agree with all those who have previously commented that an approach of targeting those who are of the “what’s-in-it -for-me? brigade. If the Tories/and Yoon mentality since early Thatcher has told us anything, it’s that basically the human being is a selfish creature. ou may well argue that “I want indy for my kids and my kids’ kids” – a perfectly valid and appreciative comment. But dissect even that and at heart, you want it for YOUR family – not really for the greater common good that we as indy supporters believe will come in its wake. Further, and this ties in with my initial point, even if you don’t consider *that* particular point to be selfish and self-centred, then undoubtedly the zeitgeist of Thatcherism hangs over us all – we all want the best for ourselves, ultimately and it was this sort of mentality that has led to the bonus-culture amongst the bankers, the sod-you attitude of so many of our fellow citizens and the pushing to the wall of so many of the vulnerable members of our society.
Secondly, and related to the above, is the necessary targeting of pensioners. Remember, I am not seeing these as a complete bloc any more than anyone else – there are numerous active nationalist and indy supporting pensioners who continue to do sterling work for the cause. More power to their elbow. But you need to educate them, steer their reading away from the dire lies of the mainstream media and the awfulness of the BBC in Scotland. Remember,they grew up respecting these media outlets and would find it difficult to divorce themselves from what they consider to be the reliable communication channels of their youth. Coupled with this of course, is their often desultory appearances on social media. This is also a technological issue, but is one, again, where education, persuasion, patience and humour are necessary to inform your fellow Scots of what the reality of the situation is. “The tuth is out there” – Go out and disseminate amongst your fellow Scottish citizens and make them enjoy the experience of learning and for them to appreciate the sincerity and passion you have for your (and ultimately, their) cause.
Thirdly, read the book “Project Fear” by Joe Pike which gives an insider’s view of the dynamic that was Betray Us Together before Indy Ref 1. Know thy enemy – his ways, his deeds, his scaremongering – so that you can counter them effectively next time.
Fourthly, learn from others in similar situaions and make common cause with those of us who are also combatting Westminster as well as other “stateless nations” who have the same aspirations and face the same problems as you do. Do not be afraid to learn, adapt and share ideas – as well as for your ideas to be disseminated.
The best Better Together is when there is a joint commitment to the noble and fundamental idea of independence and freedom for our peoples. By knowing the fight ahead of us, sharing good practice, and where necessary playing dirty (God knows the other side do at every turn – and wehave too often tried to play the “nice guy” card and that we’re not like them – well, in the real world, that don’t happen.)
Get out on the streets. Chap on those doors. Sell your message loud and clear. Independence is always worth it – and your citizens will be better respected, richer and more well-informed by accountable politicians and media of their own choosing.
This is no time to sit on one’s hands. Onwards to freedom – or your children and children’s children will never forgive you for letting your country be sacrificed on the altar of self-serving Anglo-Brextremists who care not a tuppeny toss for Scotland and Wales.
schrodingers cat @ 15:06:
Oh dear, here we go again. Close reading, please, not the old business of putting words into others’ mouths. What you claim is not what the article says at all!
In fact it says the absolute reverse. You would have us completely out and having to wangle back in, whereas the article clearly says “stay as we are and see how things pan out with England”.
Why else otherwise would Stu write:
You keep trying to discount the reality that the second we vote for independence, the EU will treat us very differently. Now it must be “stay schtum”, then it will be “let’s talk”.
Any government of an independent Scotland will be duty bound to explore all possibilities, including having a transition period to remain in the EU in our own right. And if it would be forthcoming to the English Leavers, how much more so for us…?!
We need some proper research into why, apparently, some 30% of Yes voters have changed their mind over Brexit. It is neither logical nor rational. The EU has a fraction of the influence and control over our affairs that Westminster has. So we need to find out what the issues are so that we can address them. I believe that many of those who feel that way are ill informed and particularly are not aware of the particularly Scottish angle to this. As I say it is a believe without evidence as yet. Scots have been subject to the same relentless anti EU, anti immigrant propaganda that the rest of the UK has been getting for decades. The Scottish perspective and campaign for the EU was lost in the overwhelmingly English centric campaign that was reported. A recent survey (sorry don’t have a link) showed respondents thought the immigrant population of Scotland i.e. anyone not born in Scotland or another part of the UK, was 25%. In fact it is 8%. Population growth or overcrowding is a related problem area. But Scotland has one of the lowest rates of population growth in the world. The population of England has grown 10 times faster in percentage terms over the last 35 years. So whether you agree with the perception or the arguments you can see this is an English concern not a Scottish one. Another contentious area is the cost of EU membership. Business for Scotland research showed the net cost to Scotland of EU memebership was less than £100m but the potential revenue generated from the economic activity was in excess of £2bn. In other words the value of our membership was 20 times the cost. Scotland has 8.2% of the UK population but gets 17.5% of EU funding. The Tories are only commited to maintaining funding until the end of this parliament. You would be a fool to believe that longer term they will maintain that level of funding and completely off your trolley to beleive a Westminster Tory government would give Scotland 17.5% of any funding going.Has sommeone got a way of doing the research?
Bob Mack says:
So, question. Is that what Nicola has been planning for all along ?
Sometimes the only way to focus a person’s mind on a negative ,is to let them experience it.
————–
I think it is, unfortunately things in scotland are going to get a lot worse before people will vote yes
@brewsed.
Why do you assume there will be 3 parties of current unionist trait, ‘morphed’ into something else ?
A Yes vote = no more labour party, no more Tory party and no more Lib dem party in Scotland.
Certainly not in their current guise, as EVERY current unionist politician in Scotland is out of office as soon as that Yes vote is returned, seeing as they are ALL part of a party from another country.
Sure, they could sit as independents in an indy Scotland, but a campaign slogan of…”vote for me..the person who fought tooth and nail to avoid Scottish Independence”….is going to be a damn tough sell.
The simple reality is that the 3 unionist parties are vehemently opposed to even holding indyref2, because a Yes vote means they are out of office.
Simple, good old old self preservation.
@cat
Yes, fair enough giving most effort to where it might pay off.
I think maybe a standard kind of line for those who appear not to be interested at all, kind of an exit to leave them something to think of, and get them to doubt for instance the BBC.
“Ah, so you’re a NO, who’s your favourite politician?”
“Theresa May / Jeremy Corbyn / Nigel Farage”
“Isn’t it shocking how the BBC treat her / him, they’re all liars at the BBC”.
———-
“Ah, so you’re a definite NO, why’s that?”
“There’s too many politicians in Holyrood with their snouts in the trough”.
“So what about Westminster?”
“There’s too many politicians there with their snouts in the trough”.
“So you hate politicians?”
“Yes”
“So why not vote YES to at least get rid of the Westminster ones?”
——-
“So why are you voting NO?”
“Can’t stand that Krankie woman”
“Yes, there’s a lot of people like that, what do you think of Davidson?”
“She’s wonderful”
“Well, her only chance of ever being FM is Independence, when Sturgeon will probably retire”
——-
“So why are you voting NO?”
“This independence thing is doing my crunchie I’ve had enough”
“But with 45% support it’ll be around for the next 50 years”
“Oh God I can’t stand it. All these neverendums”
“Well, vote YES to get it all over now!”
——
Rather than convert hard NOes to Indy, get them to doubt the whole thing!
It’s quite easy to con people. Much, much harder to convince them they’ve been conned and for them to accept it.
That’s what we’re up against.
Ken McNeil says:
5 March, 2018 at 3:44 pm
We need some proper research into why, apparently, some 30% of Yes voters have changed their mind over Brexit.
————
i think that since the euref, people have become much more informed about brexit. indeed, brexiteers on social media have become less and less confident as the months have past.
brewsed says:
It will, but not immediately. IMO the SNP have proven they are the only party in Scotland actually capable of running a country! I will be giving them my vote in the first post Indy election. Probably the second too.
However beyond that I do hope Scotland develops multiple parties appealing to narrower groups. That may or may not mean an end to the SNP. IMO it is likely to narrow its voter base and become more focused on specific policies rather than be a broad church. After Indy, with a PR parliament we have no need for broad church parties.
What of the BritNat parties? On the face of it you can’t imagine their continuation. No doubt some politicians will re invent themselves, claiming to be willing to put Scotland first. In fact, some of them will have the brass neck to claim that’s what they did all along! In the first election after Indy we will probably see legacy UK parties standing having solemnly promised to be national parties rather than just branches of a foreign organisation.
I hope they are erased and replaced, quite frankly. But that’s up to voters.
Most of all …. I hope we get the chance to find all this out!
O/t question for all you “loyalists “. How could a poor wee backwards country like Ireland pay my mum in ayrshire a widows pension of just under 800 euros a month. And gives her a 100 euro bonus at Xmas unlike the sh**y tenner you get here???. It’s really time you took the ‘blinkers off your eyes.
When Indy comes It will be won by the SNP . I feel that they should be given a double tenure , ten years … to allow the country to settle and let new parties come forward with new blood coming through. The present opposition in Holyrood can not be allowed to bide their time to take over this newly Independent State as their Loyalties are to severely ingrained.
I remember watching Nicola’s speech at the National Conference in Glasgow and being amazed to see the hordes of pensioners in the audience.
I don’t know exactly how many of the 3,000 delegates were pensioners but it was certainly difficult not to be impressed by their numbers.
Good on them!
Trumpet fanfare.
The hidden switch was actually, with a bit of psephology, discernible from Yougov polling history polls later in June 2017.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
That’s a bit of a non-pushy sales technique really, be ready to see quickly you’re going to get nowhere, openly accept thier decision maybe even before they’ve said no, but leave the door open “You’ve got your own good reasons for voting NO, I expect you’re right”.
@yesindyref2
I find a good line to sow the seeds of doubt is to take this simple line …
Soft Unionist: ”Blah blah”
Me: ”There’s not many people would disagree with you there. But you’ll never get that while we’re in the UK”
Truth is I don’t agree with them, but don’t want to debate that detail. Using their point to cast doubt on what their Union is delivering does often throw them.
galamcennalath @ 15:49:
Now that has the ring of truth! =laugh=
Ireland of course largely stuck post-indy to parties with historic divisions rather than obvious socio-economic interests, but we haven’t had a deep sore to endure like they did, thankfully. The SNP is a very broad church so I could envisage an eventual re-alignment of all the parties in an independent Scotland.
But not in the immediate aftermath, and rightly so.
staying in and having indyref2 would mean having it before 29th march 2019
barnier has just informed business leaders that we wont know the actual result of brexit until early next year.
a winter indyref2 campaign??
I dont know how these negotiations will pan out, treeza could walk tomorrow or continue to prevaricate until march 2019. until we know what brexit means, we cant hold indyref2.
as such, it is very possible we will be out of the eu before we can hold indyref2
btw, rejoining via A49 is the EU position regardless of when we hold indyref2
I posted this over on Facebook the other day and I think, provided my assumptions are correct, it lays out a reason as to why an independence referendum in September/October this year is a must.
Feartie must conclude Phase 2 of the withdrawal negotiations by middle/end of October because then the E.U. 27 start their discussions/negotiations amongst themselves about the “agreement” which they must sign before March 2019.
Bearing in mind that the legal version of the Phase 1 negotiations agreement only appeared last week, which Feartie dismissed, I would not expect the Phase 2 negotiations agreement to appear much before December if, and it is a HUGE if, Feartie agrees to sign the legal agreement. This is looking more and more unlikely to happen, in my view because Phase 2 can NOT start until phase 1 is complete and that means Feartie signing the agreement!
The longer she holds off on signing Phase 1 agreement the shorter the timescale she has for Phase 2 if she wants an agreement with E.U. 27 in time for March 2019. Should that fail to materialise then I believe corrupt broken bankrupt Britain is out on its ear in March 2019 and trading under W.T.O. rules which most people say they do NOT want.
So on Friday Feartie laid out her five “tests!”
Well I’ll see her five “tests” and raise her the TEN points of REALITY!
1) Phase 1 negotiations
2) agree Phase 1
3) sign Phase 1 agreement
4) Phase 2 negotiations
5) agree phase 2
6) sign off Phase 2 agreement
7) EU 27 negotiate results of Phase 1/2
8) EU agree
9) EU sign off agreement
10) Brexit
Despite BBC/STV/SKY/Britnat media going all goo goo ga ga over Feartie’s “speech” they deliberately omit the REALITY of the situation.
At this moment in time we are currently at Step TWO! We could have been at Step THREE but Feartie refused to sign the agreement last week despite the agreement being the LEGAL version of what SHE agreed to at the eleventh hour in December. If we are to move on at all then she needs to get her finger out.
Step 4, Phase 2 negotiations can not begin until the completion of step 3, the signing of the legal agreement. More over step 5/6 must be completed by the end of October before step 7 can begin and at the current rate of non movement on anything regarding Brexit negotiations I’m not convinced Feartie will be signing off Phase 2 talks in 2018 which means Brexit in March 2019 will be done under W.T.O. rules by my understanding.
To call Feartie utterly useless would be to give her a complement!
@Bobp
The full state pension here is 776 euros per calendar month, at current rate of exchange, or 790 at 1.14 as it was a few days ago, and the winter fuel allowance is £100 minimum for those who qualify. So that’s not really going to work as an argument.
The one I can’t get out of my head is if May just sticks to her “Now is not the time” and stalls there indefinitely.
What then? Why would she agree to allowing another section 30?
If we push through with a referendum without a section 30 doe that not open us up to people claiming the referendum was illegal and not participating?
For my money I can see the sense in holding a referendum before we are out of the E.U as it would be less disruptive.
I can also see the reasoning behind doing it after Brexit, to show just how bad it is.
Before we are out makes more sense to me.
One thing that does seem to surface the longer we wait is that various sections of the indy movement seem to get restless and wind each other up.
We need a direction to aim at, a date a definite target to focus on.
@galamcennalath
Yes, good one. Just a seed of doubt as an exit line, rather than trying to continue the argument.
I got it a lot about Salmond in Indy Ref 1: “Can’t stand that Salmond”, and I used to truthfully reply “There’s a lot of people say that, kind of like marmite, but he won’t be FM for ever anyway”.
I get my state pension in may, my wife and I are thinking of moving to Scotland (home to me). But if Scotland votes for independence,will I lose my state pension. Answers on the back of a postage stamp please. Hahahahaha.
Great analysis, and as for helping the Yes Leavers to see the best way to get what they want – yes, tell them they are right, have a point, and here’s a better way to achieve that – in fact the only way…. which kinda strikes a chord with what this gentleman says… link to qz.com
@Maolbeatha: “Why would she agree to allowing another section 30?”
I think Sturgeon will go for it anyway, with the emergency Continuity Bill she’s shown May she’s not bluffing, and the only action against a Holyrood initiated Ref is court action, with potential appeals and more appeals, which could disrupt May’s 29th March Brexit, so it’s safer for her to give the S30 so that the Brexit deal or no-deal can go through for the rUK.
I think getting g the message over that full regularity alignment for ulster is a betrayal of ulster by Westminster and emphasising that fishing and farming is scotland are going to be sacrificed in the same way
I always say to my family, one step at a time.
Independence First.
Then we can think about anything else, don’t complicate things by adding variables at this time, most people have difficulty with one.
@Bobp “But if Scotland votes for independence,will I lose my state pension.”
No, you claim it from Ireland in any case if it’s the Republic:
link to irishtimes.com
or the rUK if Northern Ireland:
link to gov.uk
You probably wouldn’t get increases, but that would depend on what iScotland might decide, and perhaps there are additional benefits you’d be entitled to.
…everyone has seen the pound collapse!
…everyone can witness Tory cuts and austerity
…all have experienced the Blue Tory / Red Tory turns each at Westminster and agreed alignment
…daily examples are presented of wealth going South and being spent on the South
…anyone can google pensions in Europe and know our position.
…how could anyone have missed the VOW betrayal?
…and BREXIT lies
…Aircraft Carriers and Trident replacement ( Force Projection NOT defence)
…illegal wars
…the arrogance of the dominant numbers (devolution)
Etc etc
If people still vote for the Union with all the evidence available then I give up.It is not my duty to protect the stupid from their destiny.
Don’t write off all pensioners.
I have persuaded my mum towards independence. Told her about McCrone, media manipulation and the establishment. All a bit hard for her to believe and swallow.
I think a just wore her down to be honest.
I take what you say about the pensioners as a group Rev, but individuals can be won over.
Theresa May in the HOC just gave the example of a frictionless border as between America and Canada
She really did!
Clootie says:
Oh, me too. I’ll always vote, but that would be me finished with activism and following blow by blow politics. I will just have to find a new obsession. 😉
In 2014, the English government of the UK interfered: persuading large grocery chains to threaten higher food prices, threatening that banks would move their HQs to England, Nicky McPherson’s behind the scenes action, the three imperial masters breaking the Edinburgh agreement by coming up and making new offers, and the Queen’s biassed warning to think carefully. The BBC and the MSM were extremely biassed. The count was too easy to subvert.
Would exposing this on tv and newspapers have an impact on fair-minded people? Of course the YES movement would have to pay for the publicity; could this be done?
When we come to the planning and execution of the referendum, it must be placed entirely in the hands of an independent, non-British neutral body such as the UN to avoid the problems we had in 2014. We really did set ourselves up for failure by not being sufficiently thorough in planning and execution, and adequately suspicious of the Brit Nat government and it’s partners.
Maolbeatha says:
Before we are out makes more sense to me.
————–
me too. however, the most important issue on timing is holding indyref2 when we can win it. this overides all other considerations.
read arbroath1320’s post and factor in that treeza has to bring back the deal and put it to a westminster vote, many MPs still harbour ambitions to scupper brexit completely, what will nicola do if they suceed? take indyref2 back of the table? what if they suceed in getting an euref2 of the ground? do we run it in tandem with indyref2?
no, we wait until we know exactly what brexit means, bear in mind, treeza could walk out tomorrow morning, and once we do, we announce holding indyref2. not before
‘Theresa May in the HOC just gave the example of a frictionless border as between America and Canada’
Lol, I crossed the border some years ago from Canada to the USA with my now wife and her distant cousin who lived in Canada to do some clothes shopping.
No word of a lie, it was one of the most intimidating experiences I have ever had. I felt like they were treating me like a criminal.
Genuinely felt a sense of fear and that they were trying their hardest to find something to pin on us.
Yesindyref2 4.34pm. I was being facetious ,lol. Paid all my state contributions in Scotland and mostly England .
For all you yoon knuckledraggers, facetious means taking the p**h .
The situation regarding the EU and Scotland is exactly the same as it was in 2014. On Independence day we are no longer a member of a club that we aren’t a member of in the first place.
That’s what Barosso said to Lord Tugendhat on 10 December 2012, what the Commission has said on multiple occassions. That’s what Juncker has said in regard of both Scotland and Catalonia. The Commission are the gatekeepers. Surely we should listen to what they repeatedly say!
In the end, that’s what’s down in black and white in the Lisbon Treaty. Only states can be members, so nations which are currently not states are not members.
The only difference Brexit makes (and it’s a big one), is that we are out now in any case. Independence then offers the choice of joining, as opposed to being out indefinitely in Brexitland.
I am a Yes Remainer. But also think that joining the EU is simply far too slow, just because of the logistics. See Kirsty Hughes and Tobias Locke in European Futures. Kirsty is a big EU fan, but even she couldn’t get it down under 3 years. It’s too slow. All the economic damage would be done.
99% of the benefits of Europe are in the EEA – the single market. That’s what guarantees the Four Freedoms, not the specific route to membership.
There’s only two ways to be in the EEA (see EEA Agreement Article 128). Join the EU and then the EEA. Or join EFTA and then the EEA. EFTA is potentially the faster route by far.
AND if the voters don’t agree with the policy position, don’t blame them, Scottish Labour style. Change the position to something they will support. Which is precisely what the SNP are gradually doing.
“Here’s why, to protect jobs and living standards, we need a ‘Norway-style’ deal that keeps us in the Single Market”
link to twitter.com
There’s a 65%+ Yes vote in EFTA EEA because it gives both Yes Remainers and Yes Leavers something to vote for positively. We’d be nuts not to take an option that can add 10% to the Yes vote.
That doesn’t prevent a future vote on joining the EU, as the EFTA to EU route is a well trodden path: Austria, Finland, Sweden, Portugal and previously the UK.
@Johnny says: 5 March, 2018 at 2:34 pm:
“Regarding the ‘why give up London rule to be ruled by Brussels?’ argument. Of course, it is utter nonsense, really, as you are effectively removing one layer of government above Holyrood only and it’s not even as if Brussels would claim power over the ‘reserved’ issues currently subject to Westminster rule.”
Now we Wingers, (mostly), all know that, Johnny, but have a thought. There are lots of fake news, propaganda and even conspiracy theories both on the MSMS and on the interwebby thingy. I’ve been a political animal for most of my 80 odd years on the Earth and spent most of my adult life in cutting edge electronics of one kind or another. I did a brief spell in the early 1950s in a top secret facility, not too far from Bletchley Park. It was a very early electronic computer built into two massive aircraft hangers and used Post Office multi-selectors, P.O. style relays and little twin triode glass encased valves. This before the semi-conductor, (transistors), came along. I was in at the restart of TV post WWII and the new developments in radio broadcasting from early VHF FM onwards
However, that’s an aside. Suffice to say I know my way around computers and thus the information super highway
” … But this argument seems to resonate with some people who can’t quite get their heads around it.”
Indeed it does but there is another factor that is often overlooked and that is those of my generation and onwards not so well educated in technology can be very easily taken in by false news and crazy conspiracy theories. Clever conspiracy theorists know just how to manipulate these people and it is my experience that much of the United Kingdom’s people have been indoctrinated, (a.k.a. Brainwashed), against, for example The European Union.
The more cunning manipulators know that to really succeed with a conspiracy theory there must be more than a grain of truth in the propaganda and, just by chance I stumbled upon just such an Anti-European Union video on YouTube this morning.
It is disguised as an anti-Royal Family video but I believe it really is an Anti-EU propaganda effort and although it purports to be, “British”, is probably more USA/Far right neocon in fact.
Have a watch at it and see what you think.
So maybe the tack to take with some of them is to say ‘why leave the EU/Brussels rule just to be ruled by Westminster?’.
Exactly! See if you get my drift after watching the video:-
link to youtube.com
Maolbeatha says: 5 March, 2018 at 4:12 pm
The one I can’t get out of my head is if May just sticks to her “Now is not the time” and stalls there indefinitely.
What then? Why would she agree to allowing another section 30?”
Then we either have an un-consented referendum, which has risk of being seen as non-binding.
Or we put an unconditional mandate in the 2021 manifesto. Which carries the risk we don’t win that election. I think we’d win it on a firm promise as in 2011. “We WILL hold a referendum”, rather than the current “We believe that….if”.
If Westminster STILL refuses, we put a direct move to independence in the 2022 Westminster manifesto. Make the election a de facto referendum, just as in Ireland 1918.
@One_Scot
1996 First time ever in America, crossed from Canada. They took our passports outside the building and we had to enter to get them back. Scariest experience. Uniformed officers with sidearms not being helpful. Very intimidating.
Have seen real improvement since over several visits to US but I would not mess with these guys. Would fully expect to be locked up first and questions asked later.
Slightly O/T.
Keith Brown (Economy secretary) has joined the contest to become the SNP’s new depute leader.
O/T
When did the past tense of ‘spin’ become’span’?
When did the past active of ‘sink’ become ‘sunk’?
When did the word ‘rammed’ supersede ‘jammed’or ‘packed’?
All these are encountered on a regular basis not forgetting of course the big one ‘decimated’.
As clootie and others say on here. The evidence on the way Scotland is being treated as a 2nd class partner in this yookay/english union is out there for the world and the most stupid to see. As a now retired well off Scot through my own hard work, it won’t affect me or my immediate family one way or the other. And for the rabid ignorant bigoted 30% who would destine our nation to perpetual bondage. Then f**k you, i hope you and yours suffer every tory indignity inflicted on you. And for the rest of Scotland, you can rise out this swamp And walk among the free nations of the world, And s proclaim proudly without cringing. I’M SCOTTISH.
As said by previous people if they vote is no next time.
The people of Scotland don’t care, why should I, hell mend them.
Until then, tell everyone you know to vote YES next time.
Seems to me to conjure Himalayas of nerdy administrative difficulties out of nothing over the EU, then argue that because UKGov will try to delay IR2 as much as possible therefore we should meekly go along with all that, is just creating entirely unnecessary rods for our own back.
Amplifying the Leaver case right now is simply giving the opposition ammunition and making our task harder. Attempting to suffocate options instead of keeping options open. Playing our opponents divide-and-rule game for them.
Personally I much prefer Stu’s argument. Keep things simple. It has real force.
Plus go for IR2 on a timing of our choice, not someone else’s. This faintheart approach from some is losing us support, not winning it.
If we don’t believe in ourselves, how can we ever expect others to?
I still think that a Snp promise to raise the state retirement pension to at least the European Union average on Scotland being independent could get us over the line to indepence.
It is the action of a decent caring country.
The kind of country most of us would like to live in. Q
@derickfaeyell
You appear to have fallen for unionist hype.
If no S.30 is forthcoming, and the SG hold a referendum anyway, a couple of things happen.
……..
1. WM cannot get involved IN ANY WAY AT ALL.
If they do, then it is an easy argument to say that they MUST in fact, accept the result because they accepted such a possible outcome by engaging in the process.
………….
2. This point actually invalidates point 1 anyway..but ANY referendum on Scottish independence is an expressing of the SOVEREIGN WILL of the Sovereign power of Scotland under Scots law, namely, the people of Scotland.
WM cannot deny the expressed sovereign will of the people of Scotland, as doing so would be to breach the Act and Treaties of Union itself.
A section 30 is a red herring. It is 100% NOT required for a referendum to be heard or the result to be legally binding.
The very fact our people hold the sovereign power in Scotland, proves that comment.
This is why WM absolutely will agree to a S.30 and the timing laid out by the SG.
Legally, they have NO CHOICE.
……….
Happy for correction by our resident constitutional expert, the wonderful Mr Peffers, if any the above is in any way incorrect.
Up till now,it appears we have been slowly ‘feeling our way out’ of this corrupted union, but it’s now time to quickly up the tempo (while our opponents are ‘purposely grasping’ at us in an attempt to drag us down with them).
Certainly to my ears,the many voices of the Yes choir sound absolutely ready,a voter friendly choir master/mistress is now required (previous applicants need not apply).
I’m a believer in the power of Realpolitik, which has scant regard for constitutional navel gazing. But mostly trying to say that we have numerous options to go forward, once the majority decide that they want independence. WM can’t stop us, because if they block one route, we have others. But first: a majority!
@Iaian 5.37
As a pensioner I would heartily agree. Providing it can be sustainably paid for. Last thing I want to see is IScotland impoverished by vague and uncoated promises.
If we can afford a top-up well and good, it puts more money into the economy. If not us pensioners would be no worse off but our children, grandchildren and great grandweans would be. They are the important ones.
@Derick fae Yell
Kirsty Hughes and Tobias Lock seemed to think (20 February 2017) Scotland CAN stay in the Single Market:
“One possible route would involve two stages. Firstly, Scotland would have a differentiated transition than rUK (while still part of the UK) enabling it to stay within all EU policies, including the Single Market and Customs Union. Secondly, once independent, it could ask for temporary membership of the EEA and EFTA, with an exemption from EFTA’s trade deals, so that it could remain within the EU’s Customs Union. In this second stage, Scotland would also continue to fully align its policies with all EU policies beyond the Single Market as well.”
link to europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk
which underlines the huge importance of NOT allowing any power grab at all, not even one single power of those 111.
Very good article Rev, as you say lets try and persuade as many folk nicely of course, that independence is the way forward.
RJ Sutherland at 2.33pm
‘Independence First!’
Sounds like a good rallying cry.
I wouldn’t give up on any demographic. People who rely on the BBC and MSM for information are open targets for Unionist propaganda.
I would like to see some short messages, postcard size, informing people about the worst pensions in the OECD, the disparity between Norway’s Sovereign Wealth Fund and our zero fund, the post 2014 broken promises, the fact that England votes Tory and we have no chance of a democratic outcome in this Union.
The National, iScot and Truly Scottish TV plus blogs, street stalls etc can all deliver the message once a campaign starts.
@Derrick Fae Yell
“Change the position to something they will support. Which is precisely what the SNP are gradually doing.
“Here’s why, to protect jobs and living standards, we need a ‘Norway-style’ deal that keeps us in the Single Market”
link to twitter.com ”
No, that’s not the SNP changing their position at all. The context of that tweet is May’s speech and the UK – the UK must stay in the Single Market. It wasn’t about iScotland.
First things first: end the union with England. Tell the electorate we’ll have guaranteed referendums on the EU, NATO etc later.
BBCs ( Britain is Bad/Bust/Broken Conversations) do not depend on
a date for indyref2
the deputy leader of the SNP
the EU,EEA,EFTA
being a pensioner or not
Section 30
any sort of promise
29 March 2019
a Yes campaign, whether in Hope St or not
in fact anything outwith your control.
BBCs tilt the playing field in our favour We should be doing them now and regularly ’til the referendum is won
yesindyref2
while the eu is very careful in what it says in public, i’m pretty sure that in private conversations, they will have discussed with the scottish government exactly what they will be willing to state and do publicly before, during and after indyref2.
we, on the otherhand, are left, to an extent, guessing
i think we must trust that Nicola knows and makes the right choices.
rjs
we are discussing a timetable, where fixing a date maybe nothing more than the difference of a few weeks. that doesnt make people who disagree with you, “fearties”
the issue of what happens with brexit affects the timing of indyref2, thats why nicola took it of the table until we know exactly what brexit means. it isnt a Himalaya of nerdy administrative difficulties out of nothing
yesindyref2 @ 17:52, 18:01,
Well clarified. But DfY is on public record as being a longterm EFTA-only advocate, so that’s his thing. Any time some plausible alternative appears, up he pops with his bag of doubts!
One of the best Indy Quotes I have seen.
” I can understand with Independence some people will be afraid of not knowing what they are walking into.
But with 1 million on foodbanks, the persecution of the disabled, Vip sleaze,tax evasion,bedroom tax, compliance with Israel, illegal wars and one million Scots living in poverty, we might not know what we are walking into, but we sure as hell know what we are leaving!”
John Scott.
Gus1940
‘Decimated’ From 1661 according to the OED
He had told them before,..that God would decimate them, and here he tells them that God would be merciful to this decimated Remnant if they would but return to him
People may be perplexed that May uses untruths to highlight how easy things could be regarding borders, they know it is not true but it serves its purpose of sending out the propaganda.
Same with Davidson and the legal challenge to the Continuity Bill, she probably never intended to make a legal challenge but to get on air to make the illegal speech, happily carried unchallenged by the BBC.
Propaganda doesn’t rely on truth but on the willingness of a compliant government financed media.
schrodingers cat @ 18:14,
You are perfectly right, there is still enough doubt to hold off for the moment. But I don’t agree that it’s a matter of a judgement of “a few weeks”. (Window of opportunity, I presume, not from now.)
Anyway it’s not just a matter of timing, but of signalling intent. It’s one thing to look like a tiger just waiting for the right time to spring with killer intent, and quite another to look indecisive and unsure as to whether you might ever find the courage to dare to make a move at all.
(I exaggerate, but I hope you get my drift. During the summer we had rather an unfortunate amount of wavering from some in the SNP, particularly the WM contingent. I have been having an exchange in the previous thread with another poster who exemplifies the exasperation felt because of the feeling there’s a damn sight too much of the latter. I don’t agree with his extreme impatience, but we must show that we really do mean business and are preparing to act, come what may. To impose our agenda, as we were doing in the Spring, not passively adhering to another’s, waiting forever for a definitive clarity that will – deliberately – never come.)
The “Himalaya” quote wasn’t specifically directed at you at all, but it really doesn’t help for anyone to quote reams of stuffy EU protocols that appeal to no-one and will be torn up the moment we vote for indy. And they will be torn up, I’m sure of it, as soon as we have independence of action. As Barnier himself quoted “where there’s a will…”. (I suspect in your heart of hearts though you agree with that.)
Derick fae Yell says:
we are out of the EU
The Commission are the gatekeepers. Surely we should listen to what they repeatedly say!
Independence offers the choice of joining, as opposed to being out indefinitely in Brexitland.
joining the EU is simply far too slow,All the economic damage would be done.
99% of the benefits of Europe are in the EEA – the single market. That’s what guarantees the Four Freedoms, not the specific route to membership.
There’s only two ways to be in the EEA (see EEA Agreement Article 128). Join the EU and then the EEA. Or join EFTA and then the EEA. EFTA is potentially the faster route by far.
AND if the voters don’t agree with the policy position, don’t blame them, Scottish Labour style. Change the position to something they will support. Which is precisely what the SNP are gradually doing.
“Here’s why, to protect jobs and living standards, we need a ‘Norway-style’ deal that keeps us in the Single Market”
link to twitter.com
There’s a 65%+ Yes vote in EFTA EEA because it gives both Yes Remainers and Yes Leavers something to vote for positively. We’d be nuts not to take an option that can add 10% to the Yes vote.
That doesn’t prevent a future vote on joining the EU, as the EFTA to EU route is a well trodden path
———————-
spot on Derek
I would add that the 62% remain vote, by definition gives the scottish government a mandate to apply immediately for efta/eea membership.
while it also gives the SG a mandate to apply immediately for EU membership, that only applies to the specific EU membership we had when part of the UK
ie, 4 opt outs + the rebate
however, that membership is now gone, not even the uk would get it back if it reversed brexit today. eg, a swedish type eu membership (outwith the euro) is similar to what the uk had but it is not the same. if the uk did reverse brexit, it could be argued that any new agreement between the eu and the uk would need to be put to a plebicite. an indy scotland would find itself in the same situation.
also, efta/eea membership would be outside the cap and the cfp, and would appeal to farming and fishing communities. especially if treeza sells the fishing communities down the river which seems certain
yesindyref2 says:
“The context of that tweet is May’s speech and the UK – the UK must stay in the Single Market. It wasn’t about iScotland”
Correct. But given that the UK won’t stay in the single market because neither cheek of the Westminster erse will accept Freedom of Movement, the only obvious solution is for Scotland to be in the Single Market as an independent state. The reference to Norway is not an accident. In case nobody has noticed, the Scottish Government has strongly focused on the single market for the last year at least.
Robert Sutherland. Yes I am a long term advocate of EFTA. I came to it for process reasons – because it’s obvious to me that we can’t just ‘stay’ in the EU through the independence process, not least because we aren’t members! Hence we need to rejoin, and that’s too slow. If we recall the 2014 White Paper suggested we could have seamless membership. The people most affected – EU citizens – looked at that offer, concluded it was mince, and voted solidly No. I’d quite like to win next time so we need to lose the magical thinking.
Having come to EFTA for process reasons – because it’s faster – the more I look at it, the more attractive it seems. It’s notable that support in Norway for moving from EFTA to EU membership has fallen from 48% in the 1994 referendum, to 16% now. It hasn’t been over 20% in years. EFTA EEA WORKS for them. Similar trend of falling support in Iceland, although less pronounced.
If am EFTA EEA postion would get us a majority Yes vote, would you not support it?
@RJS
Ah right, that explains it. Well, it seems a transient route would be through temporary EFTA / EEA membership anyway while keeping in step with EU rules and the acquis, so this is where both EU and EFTA – and neither even – can come together.
We get the YES vote, and quickly set up the transient EU terms and get EFTA set up ready, then we have an EU / EFTA / none Referendum and proceed in the appropriate direction.
Seems like a winner to me, and I’d guess the EU would insist on a Scotland only EU Ref anyway, as they wouldn’t want another Brexit rigmorale called Sceixt.
@Derick fae Yell
The SNP might be playing it both ways which is wise, and personally I’d happily take EFTA if that was the way forward. In some ways it suits us better than the EU, but in other ways the EU is better. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
schrodingers cat @ 18:33,
Ach, here’s the self-erected Himalayas again!
I trust Kirsty Hughes. She seems to know her stuff.
Life’s lesson: if you don’t ask, you don’t get.
In terms of engaging the public, I prefer Stu’s simple take. It’s eminently sellable, IMO.
rjs
And they will be torn up, I’m sure of it, as soon as we have independence of action. As Barnier himself quoted “where there’s a will…”. (I suspect in your heart of hearts though you agree with that.)
—————–
absolutely robert, i have no doubt about it, but i would point out that we must first campaign and win indyref2 before we get to that point.
we are still only at planning the campaign stage,
as for waving a big stick and showing intent, i get your point, it is sometimes necessary to stand up and be counted. but you generally wait until the artillery bombardment is finished first.
the SG is showing teeth over the withdrawl bill, I have no idea whether the Supreme court will find in their favour or not. i doubt it, lawyers are….well…..lawyers. and these ones are all arch britnats, however, we dont have to win, just fight, if the SC allows wm to ride roughshod through holyrood it will probably help support for yes. I think it is a win win strategy.
as for the timing, we are very very close now,
The various components of the British Isles have several different relationships with the EU yet ALL have the benefit of EU tariffs as if they were members [Wikipedia].
Jersey – not in EU but has an office in Brussels to ensure Jersey’s interests are represented!
Isle of Man- not a member/associate member of EU or EEA.
Guernsey – as Jersey.
So there seems no real reason why Scotland shouldn’t be able to have a different relationship with the EU than the one England has/gets.
Far too much pontification about things that will be decided after independence. Concentrate on what a Scottish Parliament will and won’t do.
It will set all taxes, collect all taxes and spend all taxes for the benefits of Scotland and it’s people.
It will not spend money on weapons of mass destruction. On useless submarines, aircraft carriers and planes for them.
Also money on English infrastructure deemed of advantage to SCOTLAND.
So, if 30% are dyed in the wool Unionists and completely impossible to win over…then
70% could yet see the light and VOTE YES!!!
(With alot of hard work on our part)
And, come the day, that 30% are going to need compassion and tlc in our Indy Scotland too =)
yesindyref2 says
Aye – I think the SG are caaing canny, and are right to do so. If there’s an EU transition then that helps, as it gives us more time, but hinders because it delays the effects of Brexit.
EU EEA membership is undoubtedly the best position economically. There’s no doubt about that.
There’s no difference between the two options as regards citizens rights and the ‘Four Freedoms’. Because both options offer EEA membership.
Whether it’s the best position to win a referendum is open to question. If it was, then independence support would be 62% now.
To win over the Yes Leavers, and also to actually get EFTA to accept us, I can’t see it can be a temporary position. There’s actually incentives for the Four to accept our membership, but why would they do that if we are only doing so to use them as a stepping stone? A bit insulting to do that.
yesindyref2 says:
5 March, 2018 at 3:16 pm
I’m going to disagree with this article.
There is no such thing as a voter who can’t convert to YES, except maybe a few extreme activists…
There is, – when you aren’t even bothering to try to convert them, enlighten them, nor educate them about the catastrophic effect on the Scottish economy if it tumbles out the EU.
All the protections for Scotch Beef, Scotch Whisky, Harris Tweed, Arbroath Smokies, etc, – all these protections stem from EU Trade Agreements which Brexit will leave torn to shreds, leaving Scotland’s world renowned brands open to exploitation, with Westminster Tories “looking out” for Scotland. That’s not just protection in Europe we lose, it is the European Block’s muscle looking after our interests in the 140+ non EU Countries who have their own EU Trade Agreements negotiated by the EU.
We won’t have professional negotiators like Michel Barnier defending Scotland’s Interests, we’ll have embarrassing duffers the likes of David Davis, Boris Johnson, and Zippy from Rainbow standing up for Scotland.
You’ll quickly see the US and China making their own “Scotch”, and Shops in Scotland will even find themselves obliged to sell the shite. Scotch beef nuggets will share the same supermarket shelf with US Frankenburgers.
The EU would have stood firm to protect Scotland’s interests. Westminster will do what Westminster does best – stab Scotland in the back and sell out those interests to the highest bidder. That isn’t a side effect of Brexit, that’s their whole bloody objective behind Brexit. Brand Scotland will be left as the tawdry tartan wrapping paper used to sell all kinds of crap by proxy.
The other Brexit tornado heading for Scotland is the US inspired deregulation and abandonment of standards and safeguards which have driven up the standards and conditions in our workplace over the past few decades. Everything you see with a CE mark on it means it Conforms to EU standards which the UK no longer respects. UK products will be denied the CE mark, and will probably find themselves trying to sell the Ye Olde British Kitemark to a hostile and cynical EU market, paying prohibitive tariffs to export it, and requiring a dossier of supporting documentation just to shepherd the goods through customs. The world shrinks through globalisation and 3D printing technology, and Britain’s response is to revisit the 1950’s and bring back food rationing and 5 Amp round pin plugs for “proper” filament bulbs.
All our EU grants and supports for new industry, R and D, innovations, infrastructure projects and port facilities will no longer be funded by Europe, but Westminster’s bigoted bean counters. The same Westminster which promised Scotland a Eurostar terminal taking Ravenscraig steel to the Continent, and the HS Rail Network which started running out of steam once it got to the English Midlands.
We’ll see the customary nepotism and cronyism as Tory placemen are appointed to the boardrooms of unelected quangos as they surreptitiously worm their way into Scotland’s NHS, Local Authorities and public utilities and sell off the good stuff to their chums.
The real elephant in the room here is NOT the elderly, nor EU Nationals, nor what Scotland’s U16 voters intend to do. It’s the fact Scotland is an occupied Country, where our native, objective, dispassionate political discourse is routinely manipulated, suppressed and actively subverted by a hostile media monopoly which pumps out Unionist propaganda 24-7, and creates a problem for us which our Devolved Scottish Government has shown a singular lack of initiative, lateral thinking, and frankly decent pair of balls, to even try to tackle.
If the demands and outrages about the rabid BBC and toxic media had been taken seriously and addressed back in 2013, 2014, or really at any stage in the 4 or 5 years after, then we would not find ourselves in 2018-2019 on the brink of a seminal constitutional issue which will influence our future for decades to come, still fretting and speculating about how we cannot seem to influence a curiously stubborn public opinion.
We now face the unedifying prospect of another stillborn Independence Campaign which has already conceded the choice of battleground to the UK media, the date of Battle to Theresa May’s arbitrary prerogative, and further conceded that our EU Citizenship is already lost, and which has also placed our elected Scottish Government on the wrong side of a Sovereign Scottish mandate to contest Brexit on detailed Constitutional principle.
And our call to arms is what? Steady Scotland! Whatever you do, don’t criticise the SNP, and for God’s sake don’t mention the “I” word unless you want to carry the can for wrecking everything.
derek
the norway option was what farage promised the brexiteers, and he won
he has taken every oportunity since the vote to state publicly that when the people voted leave everyone knew they would be leaving the SM and the CU, he did so again on qt last thursday.
it was brillo that put together a video showing cameron and all the remainers, including sturgeon pointing out that if you took back control of your borders you couldnt be in the single market.
disengenious at best and blatent propoganda from the bbc at worse
Watching the bbc tonight and suddenly it is fulsome in its praise of the nhs
What is Tokyo Kaye going to say tomorrow after years of trashing them
What’s going g on
Good clip of Ian Blackford at WM goading May, the BBC probably thought it was a put down of the SNP, but it was in fact May inferring that Scotland will just do as it is told. Plus turning away from your biggest market would be plain stupid, you cannot make up the nonsense this woman talks.
For instance – checked out the Pensioners for Independence Facebook page and saw a “postcard” with the message
NHS Prescriptions in England to rise to £8.80 in April. Still free under the SNP in Scotland
How to get that sort of snappy message across to people who don’t use the internet?
link to facebook.com
The other thing is that a state with the population of the UK / RumpUK would cowp EFTA owre. But Scotland would be small enough to squeeze through that hole in the fence.
Oor Nicola is still Britain’s most influential woman – according to voters in the Sky poll.
1st – Nicola with 31.6 k
2nd Queen Elizabeth with 19.8k
3rd Mhairi Black with 14.1k
15th Theresa May with 1.6k
Well done everybody. Poll ends on Wednesday.
link to news.sky.com
I’m a Yes Leaver. Maybe an atypical one, in some ways, but my reasons for voting Leave were as follows:
1. Distrust of megalomaniac EU Commission plans (eg, EU army, Euro currency project) which appear to be an attempt to force ‘ever-closer’ political union on unwilling EU electorates.
2. Dislike of Merkel’s plans to blackmail smaller Eastern European countries into ‘migrant quota’ scheme.
3. Anger at treatment metted out to Greece and the shoddy, can-kicking approach the EU has taken to this issue while Greece becomes a 3rd world country (somewhat ironic now because it now looks like the UK will swiftly follow suit).
4. I happily lived in an EEA country for a number of years, and came to think they had a good balance between the single market, free movement and free trade, but none of the EU bullshit (see 1, 2 and 3 above).
5. An extremely naive belief that the Leave campaign was telling the truth about single market access and continuation of the no EU borders idea. I knew 100% Better Together were lying through their teeth (to Scots), but I made the mistake of thinking they had more respect for their native English electorate.
I am neither thick, nor in any way racist or anti-EU, and happen to think the free movement of goods and people around Europe is vital. The Leave campaign won the votes of people like me because they lied to us. What they now propose to do to the UK and Scotland fills me with rage.
I would suggest a good way to talk to other Yes Leavers would be to point out the lies that Leave used, and how very similar they were to the lies of Better Together. Yes Leavers have been mugged in the same way as soft No voters were when they believed the Gordon Brown/Jackie Bird pish. This is unarguable and makes a mockery of the referendum result.
Also, given the obvious prevarication and deliberate stalling of the Tories throughout the withdrawal negotiations, one can only conclude the UK government want the talks to collapse. I now believe this is because the US Republican disaster-capitalists are waiting in the wings to hoover up all remnants of our public services and finalise the program they began with Thatcher, and the current crop of Tory extremists need a way to force this on the unwilling UK public. The UK has at last chosen the American way over Europe, but this will allow us even less freedom and meaningful sovereignty than in the EU (one of the actual bugbears of Leavers like myself). This, above all, needs to be made crystal clear to anybody who voted Leave under the expectation we would win back more sovereign rights and freedoms (see point 1 above). I suspect that people voting both pro-Independence and pro-Leave might be sympathetic to this line of attack.
The reality is we will have far, far less freedom, thanks to the way the Tories have shamelessly conducted themselves since the EU referendum and pissed off all our friends in Europe. This wasn’t an inevitability of choosing to leave the EU, but it is inevitable for the UK now. But Scotland can still choose a different path.
And finally, while I dislike and distrust the EU Commission on a massive scale, the EU is infinitely preferable to the English Tories. The contempt both organisations have for democracy is similar, but I think in the EU Commission case this comes from (misguided) good intentions, whereas the Tories are malicious, cruel, incredibly dangerous to Scotland, and have nothing but contempt for anyone who isn’t part of the British landed gentry.
If Scotland has to be ‘ruled’ by one set of ideological extremists, I would opt for Brusssels every time.
Capella says:
Well, Nicola has the power to end the UK once and for all, and her followers hope she can deliver on that!
Posted on previous thread and away to catch up on todays thread (so apologies if link already posted):
Get onto this link and add your comments folks:
link to parliament.uk
Specifically, they are interested in hearing your views on the following questions:
1. How well do you think the UK and Scottish Parliaments currently work together?
2. How could the UK and Scottish Governments work together better?
3. How should the UK and Scottish Parliaments take better care to ensure Scottish and UK Ministers work together in the best interests of Scotland?
Lots of BritNat shut down Holyrood and SNPBaaad comments.
Try to answer all 3 questions and stay within the questions boundaries because these will count as official submissions.
This article reminded me of the speech Rob Shorthouse made in Vienna.
link to tinyurl.com
At 4:56 he reckons 30% were hardcore YES and 40% hardcore NO and 30% were there to be persuaded.
I think it’s worth watching this video it’s always good to know your opponents tactics.
I’m not sure if his campaign was as successful as he thought it was it seemed to me to be very slick and manipulative.
I must check to see if there are any more videos from this conference ‘Campaign Summit Vienna 2015’
Capella says:
How to get that sort of snappy message across to people who don’t use the internet?
Ruby Replies
I suppose the first thing to find out would be if the 30% who are open to persuasion are the people who don’t use the internet.
Having watched the Rob Shorthouse video it would seem that the 30% are very active on the internet.
Agree with some of that article and also notice one major group you’ve failed to cover, our English residents. I still very firmly believe the best approach has to be taken at a local level.
Groups or individuals must work their own areas. They know what the general make-up of that area is better than anyone else and they produce & promote Indy materials accordingly. They push only what they know will resonate & impact on their fellow residents in that community.
The only message, and the No1 message, that must be promoted in *every* single area/community is the No1 reason for indy. That is that Scotland gets to make *all* her own decisions and *always* gets the government she votes for.
As things stand Westminster has 650 MP’s, of which 59 are Scottish seats. That number is soon to be reduced to 53 seats. Scotland is *not* in a partnership of equals and never has been. When Scotland & England’s interests collide the current situation dictates that Scotland will *always* come off second best.
The most perfect example of that is London’s nuclear weapons sited slap-bang in the middle of our most densely populated part of the country. Despite the majority of Scotland not wanting anything to do with these useless warmongering phallic symbols. London says we’re having them so shut it and eat yer cereal.
Lastly, for those going on about the Britnats who hit us with; ‘But why give up one Union for another blah blah blah’, Colin Dunn (aka – Zarkwan) produced one of his excellent info-graphs to answer that very question.
In very simple clear terms one pie chart shows what powers we have under London’s control. Another pie chart right beside it shows what powers we’d have as an independent country within the EU. The stark difference jumps right out at you at a glance.
I’d recommend those interested go and track that info-graph down, i can’t be ersed coz i’ve got other things to do.
winning over Yes Leavers –
heres the Bruges Group, a Tory Brexit thinktank, arguing for UK EFTA/EEA membership in 2013. Shows how far Brexit has been hijacked by the nutters – anyway if it was good enough for Brexiteers in 2013, surely Yes Leavers would go for it?
link to brugesgroup.com
Theres a link on that page to quite a detailed analysis document.
In any case if we are likely to be out of the EU for a period this might be in our favour if we acknowledge it and say that application for full EU membership would be a matter for Scots to decide after independence.
Stoker says:
5 March, 2018 at 8:01 pm
As things stand Westminster has 650 MP’s, of which 59 are Scottish seats. That number is soon to be reduced to 53 seats.
Another factor in regard to timing. The Boundary Commission report goes before Parliament in September. So will the Tories be able to resist getting rid of May and pulling knives on one another to stave off a possible General Election until October?
@Zeebeving says: 5 March, 2018 at 2:55 pm@
““If Scotland becomes independent should it be part of the EU? Yes/No”
And yet, Indycar GR said in one of his vlogs that when Independence happens, that both Scotland and rUK are automatically out of EU and would have to (if wished) reapply.
He did not anticipate that would be a difficult thing to achieve.”
Then, Zeebeving, perhaps you should have had your questions ready. First one being, “But as we are all EU citizens and the EU has no laws, rules or legal mechanisms to take away a citizens citizenship against their will and because, as the EU, they guarantee any citizen of any EU member state the legal right to the protection of any member states foreign Embassy or Consulate and help from any such Embassy or consulate anywhere in the World. So under which EU rule, law or legal mechanism are they taking away an individuals EU citizenship?
Second question being that as The Kingdom of Scotland voted to remain in the EU and that the United Kingdom is exactly what it says on the tin – A two partner Kingdom and not a single country – how can they throw Scotland, either kingdom or country, out of the EU of which they were founding members?
Lastly as the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite, (a two partner), kingdom how can it end that two partner kingdom as if one equally sovereign partner, (Scotland), was leaving behind any kind of rUnited Kingdom? What will happen is a two partner unite kingdom ends in two again independent kingdoms.
A two partner union, as in a marriage for example, ends when one of the partners divorces the other. It cannot exist still as a two partner kingdom for one partner but not for the other partner.
Last time I looked at the Treaty of Union there was only the signatures of the Kingdom of Scotland, (who signed first), and the Kingdom of England on that document. Furthermore, in 1706/7 the Principality of Wales had been an integral part of the Kingdom of England since the Statute of Rhuddlan of 1284 and the Kingdom of Ireland part of the Kingdom of England since 1542 and the Crown of Ireland Act. Both events long before there was a United Kingdom. Neither English annexed country were thus required to sign the Treaty of Union.
BTW: There was no Treaty of Union with Northern Ireland. What was signed is officially called, “The Anglo-Irish Treaty”, it was signed on, 6 December 1921. The Treaty was signed between the Irish, (Republic), and United Kingdom negotiators but it specifically uses the term Anglo and that is England not either Scotland nor Britain.
Furthermore, as Westminster had never recognised the Republic of Ireland the legal position was an agreement between what was, until recognised, the English colony of Southern Ireland that had been the English Dominion of, “The Irish Free State”. Not only that but the North of Ireland was officially a Kingdom of England province since the Crown of Ireland Act already mentioned.
They’ve been teaching people false history in our schools for centuries.
If that is the case, it sort of turns the argument around a little… although we might then find the Rees-Moggs and Bojo’s lending enthusistic support to Indy(!)
@ Ruby – will watch Rob Shorthouse video. Meantime, OFCOM publish stats on where people get their news nowadays.
See Fig 1.1 on sources of news and Fig 1.2 by demographic.
I’m working on the basis that people are grossly misled and ill-informed if they rely on the MSM.
link to ofcom.org.uk
Good to see Jamieson & Shafi’s joint effort in Bella, rightfully slated in todays National. A dish of tripe whatever way it’s served up!
“The Latest Tools and Tactics from the Campaign Trail”
link to campaigning-bureau.com
Interesting organisation.
Found more videos from Campaigning Summit Europe
link to tinyurl.com
Might be some helpful tips.
I watched a bit of Michael Sanders (the 7th video down) He was going like the clappers and the audience complained that he was talking too fast!!!! He promised to go slower but he didn’t succeed. LOL
@schrodingers cat says: 5 March, 2018 at 3:31 pm:
“I had the same experience in my local coopy, i waited until he stopped ranting then said,
I’ll put you down as a maybe then?
i didnt get a round of applause but loads of folk burst out laughing”
Matter of fact my experience was in the local co-op supermarket too. Anyway, I do believe that the laughter was the better reaction. My worry was that this guy was so wound up just at the sight of a hat with YES badges on it that he could have dropped dead with a heart attack on the spot.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
5 March, 2018 at 1:34 pm
“Go figure, but that 30% is where the BBC/MSM aims its signal.”
And like it or not, it’s an incredibly powerful signal that we have no real means to combat
My own personal opinion is that that is the most depressing statement Stu has ever made :- ” we have no real means to combat”.
True enough, but it hit me hard the realisation that even Stu feels that way, as well. Woe is me.
@Hairy Jack (7.28) –
Very interesting, cheers.
If Brexit makes the UK appear more like Orwell’s ‘Airstrip One’ then it’s not difficult to imagine who might have a serious interest in making sure it does happen, no matter how calamitous it’ll be for the folk who actually have to live here.
A lot of complete nonsense being spouted on Stu’s excellent post about what the EU will or will not do about Scotland and its place in the EU come independence.
Much of it just echoing nawbag scaremongering. It is entirely possible that, should Scotland opt for independence before Brexit, the EU would allow to Scotland to remain a member.
There is no sensible or compelling reason why it would put Scotland,which has been a member for over 40 years and fulfils all conditions for membership, out of the EU and any suggestion that it would want to keep out the country with most of Europe’s oil and gas, most of its fishing waters and a strategic command of the North Atlantic is absurd.
The EU of course will make no remark on this matter formally as by its very construction it is unable to interfere in the internal affairs of its member states but there is no doubt whatsoever of the affection that is held for Scotland across the EU.
Nor is there any doubt that the EU can come to any determination it finds most suitable and sensible about Scotland’s membership.
It’s hands are not tied by baseless Brit scaremongering which appears to have frightened some correspondents on here.
The SNP is still winning and support for Independence is still increasing.
Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other person.
@Hairy Jack
I’m fixing a tap I fixed on Friday with some old parts, so I’ve only got time for one answer: “1. Distrust of megalomaniac EU Commission plans (eg, EU army, Euro currency project) which appear to be an attempt to force ‘ever-closer’ political union on unwilling EU electorates.”
The EU Army is an Express / Telegrapah / DM myth basically, the project is called PESCO, membership is entirely voluntary, and member states who sign up (25 out of 28) retain complete control over ALL forces they choosed to commit, and the word is choose.
If Scotland was a member of PESCO it could decide to commit one single army platoon of 25 to 65 soldiers, a transport plane and a tug. Or nothing at all. In terms of budget also quite small, but there are things like training and logisitics and common development that might very well be in Scotland’s interest.
Euro – obliged to commit to join, but no way of enforcing that, as it requires 2 full years in ERMs, and pre-coditions to even join ERM. Scotland could happily sit out for 10 years, 20 years, more.
Political union – even Barroso and Junckers have backed well off this as they were basically told where to go by the 28 member state governments for some odd reason, like their own jobs.
Came across this from 2014..
10 unionist myths debunked.
Just beggars belief !!
link to facebook.com
‘… In other words the value of our membership was 20 times the cost. Scotland has 8.2% of the UK population but gets 17.5% of EU funding. The Tories are only commited to maintaining funding until the end of this parliament. You would be a fool to believe that longer term they will maintain that level of funding and completely off your trolley to beleive a Westminster Tory government would give Scotland 17.5% of any funding going.Has sommeone got a way of doing the research?’
Ken McNeil at 3.44pm
Nice percentages to throw into the mix when discussing with those not yet wanting Independence.
If the 17.5% can be sourced, it certainly should focus them on the fact that we will get half of what we get just now when we could get 100% of we what we produce, which is certainly more than 8.2%.
Thank you
Oh yeah, PESCO which I think is a good idea, and that’s considering I’d personally be reluctant to lose sovereignty of my armed forces!
link to eeas.europa.eu
for instance: “. . . started a process of closer cooperation in security and defence. Member States agreed to step up the European Union’s work in this area and acknowledged that enhanced coordination, increased investment in defence and cooperation in developing defence capabilities are key requirements to achieve it.”
The hysterical anti-EU media would have you believe the EU would be taking over the Army, RN and RAF! And the TV isn’t far behind if any.
@ Dave McEwan Hill
It seems like you tell folk a thing a thousand times and all it takes is one daft NAW to make them disbelieve the truth
Which is why Better together won by scaring folk with the first lie that came into their heads and like sheep everybody falls in behind because Scotland is too used to doom
Look at the way the nightly news is delivered eg STV
Powerful music, John McKay bellows in an authoritative voice *This is thuh STV news Doom Doom Doom* and these same people never question it might not actually be the news
It couldn’t possibly be over exaggerated mince or conflated UK figures mixed in with Scotlands numbers in order to make everything seem full of gloom and despondancy or just plain deliberate accidental inaccuracy, and it’s strange that given journalists are held in even lower regard than politicians why do people fall for it
Bad news sells easily, if Vladimir Putin made a statement saying he was giving up Nuclear weapons tomorrow and swore it on his ancestors and God in heaven the same people would say he’s a liar he’s gonnae hide them till we give up ours then he’ll bomb us, and they’ll bring on experts to prove it
Threatening bad news has always been a useful tool for those who wish to manipulate to do as they please to the fearful
Further to Robert Peffers fine history lesson, it turns out the official long name for The Act of Union is actually quite descriptive.
“An Act for a Union of the Two Kingdoms of England and Scotland”.
Nuff said huh ?
Just as Brexit is the Mot du Jour, so the SG needs to increase the heat and get into the news everyday/week about campaigning on policies for the future economy of Scotland. Andrew Wilson’s strategic review of Scotland’s economy surely should be the starting point.
As things start to bubble, surely we could get Alyn Smith in the EU parliament to get his friends and acquaintances to say the right, positive and welcoming words to encourage the Europhiles who voted ‘no’ to vote ‘yes’.
Great piece by Rev, definitely reflects my view of the world.
I have a huge blocklist on Twitter of ultra yoons. Easy to spot, with a bio of ‘Rangers’ ‘Bears’ ‘British & Scottish’ and much more crass anti SNP stuff.
These are the aggressive activists, the ones spouting ‘krankie’. Today, they piled in on a post showing Nicola with the bus driver who swerved around the mini. She was also announcing money for apprenticeships. They spout infantile filth. Completely hopeless trying to converse.
They are a worrying faction, they are highly motivated, probably younger.
I’m getting disheartened, because I think things are becoming clearer, and it’s potentially disastrous if we are in this Union under Tory Brexit. Things are now moving faster, the American food lobby looking for protected status removed for Scotch has already started. The UK is a wounded animal howling and alone right now, and this will be the backdrop that drives Tory strategy.
I firmly believe we need a referendum before March, 2019. After this date, we have no EU Rights, and EU Nationals living here wont be able to vote in indyref2.
I honestly don’t see how a referendum after Brexit date works. The EU are slowly losing interest, and I think crashing out with no deal is a real possibility. No one will be interested in UK, much less Scotland in a year’s time, if we just leave on coattails on England.
The EU can’t interfere in Scotland until the member state UK leaves the EU
Then they’ll be forming a queue at Bute house
@frogesque says: 5 March, 2018 at 5:47 pm:
“Providing it can be sustainably paid for. Last thing I want to see is IScotland impoverished by vague and uncoated promises.”
Oh! For heaven’s sake, frogesque, Scotland’s true economy is one of the best in the World. We have been subsidising the rest of the United Kingdom for centuries. That’s why Westminster won’t let us go. They rob us blind and Scotland could still be a wealthy country without oil & gas revenues.
If you doubt that as a fact look at this Wings archive page.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The chart covers the years 1900 to 1921 and the last column shows the cash that Westminster creamed of and didn’t spend in Scotland. Believe me, frogesque, the scams that they have invented since then take a far larger lump out of Scotland to spend in England and, as I said, those figures had no input from oil or gas – well except for what the shale industry that is. A Scot, James Young first made Paraffin in the Lothians.
We really do not know just how much of Scotland’s wealth they grab every year but we know enough that we would be among the World’s wealthiest nations.
@Iain 5.37
Totally agree that is the way to go. It will not make them all vote yes but it will make inroads. Tell them it is a disgrace how low the UK pension is ( lowest in Europe the Russians and Turks have better pensions ) and the Scottish pension will be much better. Also say the Waspi women will be compensated.
Rev. Stuart Campbell,
God Save The Queeners
“How do we win them round? We don’t. We walk away and use the time to do something productive instead.”
Pensioners
“So there probably isn’t much hope of making a serious dent in the grey vote any time soon.”
Rock (25th April 2017 – “Faces Of Shame”):
“The vast majority of the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English.
If we want to win next time, don’t waste a second or a penny trying to convince them.
Every second and every penny is better spent elsewhere.”
OT,
This will genuinely shock you, and watch out for the incredible Canadian Journalist who names the BBC and the Guardian, as telling the opposite of what is actually happening on the ground in Syria.
The UK government is heavily involved in what is repeatedly described by this UN panel as the Criminal act, of America/UK etc destroying Syria.
Disgusting.
Maybe Alex will finally see sense.
Thepnr (10th May 2015 – “The power of the press”):
“Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.”
Rock (10th May 2015 – “The power of the press”):
“Target and embrace the ones who can be persuaded.
That is why the Radical Independence Campaign was so successful and the Yes campaign in the SNP “heartlands” a disaster.
Do you seriously believe that spending limited resources on persuading Tories in Scotland to vote for independence is a good idea?”
Correct Stuart. However I know a leave yesser who disagrees with European Union but is now seeing the error of her vote. She didn’t ever stop backing indi, so didn’t go to no after the SNP argued for indi in Europe.
I think a lot of the work is being done for us by Teresa May. She is bringing back yes leavers to indi. I also suspect that when it came to it most leave yessers would still vote yes when it came to it.
The SNP need to offer these people a choice after independence for a vote on full EU membership or a Norway style deal.
The offer must be genuine and explained as an option only after independence.
KISS KISS KISS
Keep It Simple Scotland.
Independence First
“How to get that sort of snappy message across to people who don’t use the internet?” @Capella says:
You could always print off A5s from:
link to indyposterboy.scot
or
Print off A4s of WoS articles using the “print as Pdf” option every one has.
Then drop through letterboxes, stick in the inside of newspapers in your local shop or just leave some in the Dentist, Doctor, café, on the bus, train etc. etc.
@yesindyref2 says: 5 March, 2018 at 6:01 pm:
and :-
@Derrick Fae Yell:
“No, that’s not the SNP changing their position at all. The context of that tweet is May’s speech and the UK – the UK must stay in the Single Market. It wasn’t about iScotland.”
Let’s just think before jumping to conclusions.
The first thought has to be this one – We are in the EU until we are out of it and the EU actually has no laws, rules or legal mechanisms to throw out a member state or any individual EU citizens against their will.
Furthermore, the EU’s main reason for being an EU is to persuade as many countries, states, or unions of states or countries, to join the EU. That’s what unions are all about.
So the way the EU encourages that unionism is to guarantee that EU citizens and member states are protected by the EU. Any EU citizen has the legal right to ask and get assistance from any EU member state’s consulates or Embassies anywhere in the World. In fact I’ve read recommendations that UK/EU citizens do NOT go to UK consulates or embassies but to use another EU member states consulates and embassies because the UK’s don’t help as much if at all.
So until Scotland is out of the EU we must ask the EU to let us remain as the United Kingdom is legally a union of two, equally sovereign kingdoms and it is not a single country and as EU citizens we voted to stay as such.
Understandably the EU parliament must not interfere in what is legally, (ATM), an internal United Kingdom Government matter. But when the time of Westminster pulling out of the EU comes we must have the right as both a country and a Kingdom in our own right to claim protection from the EU as EU citizens and if the EU refuses the EU loses all credibility of protecting its citizens.
After all Scotland has been fully compliant with all EU rules and regulations and followed all EU directives since the EU was formed. What’s more if they refuse us they could have their own constitutional crisis on their hands as other member states with parts that want independence lose all faith in the EU’s guarantees of citizenship.
There has been much media talk of the UK starting a landslide of member states leaving the EU.
My reply – when asked why do you want to remain in the EU – how is that independence? Is to compare the EU Union with the UK Union.
The facts soon illustrate how we are a lot more independent as a willing partner in the EU than being a nation that has no democracy in the UK Union that is not a Union but a subjugation of a smaller nation by a bigger nation.
So many people claim a lack of democracy in the EU but here we are in Scotland with our votes in the U.K. Parliament always being outnumbered. The EU nation states have a veto. In the U.K. what England wants England gets. The EU has a constitution and a guaranteed method of leaving if required. The UK has no written constitution, is made up on the hoof to suit England and “now is not the time ” is the response when asking about leaving.
In the EU we share a small amount of sovereignty. In the UK ALL our sovereignty has been stolen. In the EU we may have to pay a small percentage of our GDP and some is returned. In the UK ALL our GDP is taken and a small amount is returned.
“Even faced with the most stupendously, obviously hapless and incompetent UK Prime Minister in living memory Corbyn can’t manage to get ahead in the polls”
We could say the same thing for support for independence in Scotland.
The most stupid people on earth are in Scotland.
UK-US Open Skies talks hit Brexit turbulence
Negotiations cut short after Washington offers worse package than EU
link to ft.com
Oh dear….not going well, is it ?
OT (and apologies if anyone else has already posted this)
There’s a consultation which has quietly appeared on the UK Parliament website and which closes tomorrow at 6pm.
It’s obtensibly a consultation on what people think of devolution and brexit, but it looks to me to be a way of gathering views which suggest that Devolution should be overturned.
The question at the start is very leading – it encourages you to think of areas of devolution which ‘concern’ you. I’m guessing they’d say they mean areas which are of interest to you, but most people will interpret that as areas which you have a problem with.
If they really wanted to know what people thought they would simply ask whether or not you wanted the Scottish Government to keep the devolution powers it has, and whether you wanted EU powers to go back to Holyrood or not. They clearly have an agenda and they want people to think of reasons why devolution isn’t working.
The comments seem to be overly loaded with anti-devolution views which makes me suspicious that unionist groups have got wind of it (Scotland In Union springs to mind 🙂 ). They certainly don’t look representative of the general population – most people don’t want to scrap devolution, even if they aren’t happy with the current Scottish Government.
Please do take the time to comment on it if you can, even if it may well be a wasted effort
link to parliament.uk
Dr Jim @ 21:24,
That’s too conservative an expectation for me. I reckon that the EU will start queuing up the day after we have voted a majority “yes” for indy.
Because then we – and we alone – will be able to speak for ourselves (eheh, and for all our resources).
All the pretensions and false bluster will melt away. It will be realpolitik in action, and for once it will be working in our favour.
And England’s Leave will be in the cludgie. (As if I care, for what they have done through all these years to us.)
mike cassidy says: 5 March, 2018 at 6:16 pm:
“‘Decimated’ From 1661 according to the OED
He had told them before,..that God would decimate them, and here he tells them that God would be merciful to this decimated Remnant if they would but return to him “
Oh! Get a grip folks, the term, “Decimated”, goes back to Roman times, It simply means to kill off 1 in 10.
It was originally the practice for the Roman’s to kill off 1 in 10 of any Legion that had rebelled as a punishment for the whole legion and a warning to all others.
The word itself is self explanatory but why it came to mean just killing off a large, indeterminate, number is not clear.
Latin Decimal is self explanatory.
“the chances of winning a second indyref from outside the EU are basically nil.”
Rock (3rd December 2017 – “The faithful pet”):
“I can say with 100% confidence that Saint Theresa is not going to give permission to Nicola to hold another referendum before Brexit has been completed.
I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa.
Which means, in my humble opinion, there is a 1% chance of a second independence referendum being held before Brexit has been completed.
After Brexit has been completed, Scotland will be at the mercy of the Westminster government, with no official status in the EU other than a region of the UK.
There is 0% chance of winning a referendum held after Brexit has been completed for the next 620 years.”
Hairy Jack @ 19:28,
I would just like to welcome your posting. I think your evolving perspective will commend itself to many Yes-Leavers.
The exact same devilish techniques have been deployed against the EU as were deployed against us, and the Tory yellow press have been busy over straight bananas for far longer than they have over indy – though I think we maybe scared them more!
If we don’t believe a word they’ve excreted over indy, why should we believe anything they’ve ever excreted about their other sworn enemy?
Let’s not shut down any future options prematurely, get our freedom, then let time – and not vile Tory slanderers – do the real talking.
Sigh. Scotland hasn’t been a member of the EU for 40 years because it’s a club of independent states and we aren’t independent. We can’t keep what we don’t have.
The issue of EU citizenship is an interesting one. There’s a clear benefit when in another member state. The benefits in one’s own state are less clear, because those benefits are administered by the member state. Catalan people’s citizens’ rights are administered by Spain. All the “protections” of the Charter of Fundamental Rights are administered by Spain. With clubs.
Second, are EU citizens individual rights contingent on also bring a citizen of a member state, and hence in our case will lapse on Brexit day? That’s the position both the UK government and the EU are taking – most recently in the EU draft withdrawal agreement. The case taken to the Dutch courts and possibly the ECJ is aiming to prove the opposite.
Cubby says:
The EU is like a gym where you pay membership to get benefits to your health and wellbeing. While you’re in the gym you have agreed rules of behaviour.
The UK is like having a controlling partner who limits your freedom and takes all your earnings giving you back pocket money.
after a yes vote, the eu situation would be transormed, bending over to get us to join i would think.
but for the moment we must deal with the reality that will face us during the campaign, that is to say, very little eu intervention or support for us.
re the timing, we cant hold indyref2 until we know the definitive result of the brexit negotiations and barnier has just advised businesses that it will be ealy next year before it is finalised,
ergo, a very short winter campaign would be only option
then again, treeza could storm out tomorrow and sept this year, as per pete bell would be on the cards
Rock (18th September 2016 – “The unhappy 11%”):
“Order of priorities:
1. Destroy the BBC.
2. Get Independence.
3. Everything else including purring queen, collapsing sterling, EU.
Scotland will not be able to become independent as long as the BBC exists.”
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 5 March, 2018 at 6:31 pm:
“Anyway it’s not just a matter of timing, but of signalling intent. It’s one thing to look like a tiger just waiting for the right time to spring with killer intent, and quite another to look indecisive and unsure as to whether you might ever find the courage to dare to make a move at all.”
As usual U may be wrong but I cannot see where either Nicola Sturgeon the SNP or the SG have shown they are, (and I quote your own personal claim),“look(ed) indecisive and unsure as to whether
youthey might ever find the courage to dare to make a move at all.”I’m sure Nicola was quite specific of when that might be but it isn’t her fault that the Yoons have faffed about and don’t know if or when they are going to actually specify anything whatsoever.
In fact there are many opinions being stated that
BRUKEXIT might never happen anyway. I watched several such on YouTube and on-line newspapers today. Nicola cannot give a date as the time to act depends upon the actions of the Westminster Government..
The Express … “A caller to Nigel Farage’s LBC show has claimed that Brexit was the first domino to fall against the European Union which has now been followed up by the result of the Italian election.”
In their dreams. No one will leave the EU when they see how it turns out for ‘the first domino’!
Time will show that for ordinary folks there are no benefits, only pain and loss.
May will be gone before long. Politicians against against Indy last on average 2 years. The poison chalice. In Scotland they illegally changed the electoral system. The voters can’t get rid of the 3rd rate rejects.
link to parliament.uk
Just done my submission to the Westminster parliament above. Please sign up and make your comments. There are many that are very uncomplimentary about the Scottish Government, saying devolution is rubbish and should be abolished etc.
@geeo 9.11pm
I would like to see a top ten of the most stupid statements made. The one in the video must be high up. ” I am a patriot and that’s why I am voting against independence. ” One of my favourites is “England the island nation”.
I agree that the majority of pensioners have still to be won over. Being a pensioner mesell I weep when I see the Daily Mail buyer, almost on auto pilot picking it up in the supermarket. Heading home listening to Kaye with a E. Home in time for lunchtime with Sally Mags. Then evening viewing with BBC News which of course isnae biased then onto jakey Burd and they are well and truly drilled. However, I have seen enough grey heids at meetings and marches to know that all is not lost.
if only sons, daughters, grandkids could convince mum’s dad’s grandparents that Independence is the only route away from this shit.
Capella,
“I wouldn’t give up on any demographic.”
In my humble opinion, with limited resources, it is the ultimate in stupidity to waste them on those who are highly unlikely to be convinced and converted: the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle classes, English settlers and the thugs.
schrodingers cat says:
I keep think that is likely.
TMay’s position is a non starter. The EU will come back with ‘Canada’. She can’t sign up to the border in the Irish Sea which that necessitates and keep DUP backing. She might have a pro customs union vote in WM to contend with. Her government could fall.
The simple way to avoid all that is to storm out.
O/T
Anybody heard anything about this fascinating story from N. Ireland.
link to bbc.co.uk
Michelle o’Neill Sinn Fein is adamant that Darling Arlene of the DUP personally handed her a draft copy of the agreement that they nearly had before talks collapsed in N. Ireland. Arlene denies this, the DUP deny this and it seems that a journalist ( amazingly) has discovered a chain of e-mails that verifies Sinn Fein’s account. Watch this space.
Arlene has some explaining to do!
If it has to be a choice between the EU or the UK surely it has to the EU.
It seems a no brainer to me.
Patrick Roden at 9.50
Here is a link
t.co/NDtVyONzF3
This is not a one off. Check John Pilger, Vanessa Beely, Eva Bartlett, SCIAF and numerous other accounts from respected persons who have actually reported from inside Syria.
The Syria lie is the biggest lie we have ever been told
Talking about no brainer.
Sensibledave = arrogant ignorant offensive paid to TROLL British Nationalist.
Robert Peffers @ 22:28,
We don’t disagree that the timing isn’t yet (quite) right, RP, but if there is anything I’m certain about it’s that I’m not in the least alone in recognising that a degree of public wavering happened in the immediate aftermath of UKGE last year. Nerves have settled somewhat since, but it has continued right up to Pete Wishart’s recent foray and (thankful) subsequent withdrawal.
Not by Nicola, I must agree, who has been rock steady throughout, and not by many ordinary members either, who have presumably made their views known regarding the basis of Wishart’s brief candidature.
As I think I already hinted, I detected it mainly from the WM and ex-WM contingent. Who, for all their continuing stalwart representation, are in no particular position to influence events as things stand, alas. The odds in that palace of decrepitude are normally too stacked against.
Robert Peffers @ 5:21pm
Yes, it’s reasonably clear that that video attempts to link one group that the guy thinks ‘working class people’ won’t like (‘the elite’) with the idea of the EEC/EU (‘a club that the elites put together to destroy the individual states’) and peddling it as ‘rich vs poor’.
It’s interesting that (other than the Royals serving as someone to slag off as ‘foreigners’) the UK super rich are let off for their attempts to have more than there fair share. Amusing when he talks so often about ‘airbrushing’.
Highly perverse reading of history!
4% of UKIP members voted REMAIN????????????????????????
What a strange world we live in.
Robert Peffers,
“Second question being that as The Kingdom of Scotland voted to remain in the EU and that the United Kingdom is exactly what it says on the tin – A two partner Kingdom and not a single country – how can they throw Scotland, either kingdom or country, out of the EU of which they were founding members?”
Utter pish as usual.
Scotland a founding member of the EU?
Has anyone ever seen Scotland’s name on the list of EU members?
Does Nicola hide behind Saint Theresa at EU leaders’ meetings?
The UK is a member of the EU and the UK voted to leave the EU.
As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK.
Who is negotiating Brexit with the EU, Scotland or the UK?
And you have the brass neck to call other posters “numpties”.
Scotland tonight:
Support for Independence has all but fizzled out says Angela Haggerty on Scotland tonight and Keith Brown standing for Deputy leader isn’t what the grass roots of the SNP members wants, and she says this with her very own uninformed big mouth (perhaps accidently deliberately uninformed) much though I like Jimmy Dornan, when I heard Keith Brown was standing I leapt into the air because he is a brilliant organiser and it’s the most positive step towards Independence you could want because Keith is old school SNP and wont be pushed around by anybody anytime on anything, and if elected which I believe he will be the campaign will be underway almost immediately
It’s a positively great move by the SNP and he’s got my vote
Rock is 100% a waste of space. I can copy and paste this at least once every 620 years. Well maybe twice,
Rock serves no usual purpose in the independence cause
Arlene Foster to meet Michelle Barnier tomorrow in Brussels
This is becoming ludicrously insulting now
Who the fuck is Angela Haggerty? an opinionated egotist who used the Referendum for self-promotion.
Keith Brown a first-class candidate & unlike Col Davidson was a real sodger!
@Sarah says: 5 March, 2018 at 6:53 pm:
“The various components of the British Isles have several different relationships with the EU yet ALL have the benefit of EU tariffs as if they were members [Wikipedia].
Jersey – not in EU but has an office in Brussels to ensure Jersey’s interests are represented!”
That is a very good point, Sarah, but it has a flaw that most people have not really figured out – mainly due to long term Westminster Establishment propaganda. Propaganda they have used since they claimed there was a Union of the Crowns in 1603.
There couldn’t be a legal union of the crowns in 1603 except for the monarch personally who actually had two independent crowns. Which is why there was a forced Treaty of Union in 1706/7. Why would they need a Treaty of Union if there was a Union of the Crowns already in 1603?
Furthermore, the real rebels were the Parliament of the Kingdom of England who rebelled against their rightful Monarch, (The English Kingdom’s Glorious Revolution), in 1688 deposing their monarch and replacing that rightful monarch with the foreign pair William & Mary. Yet English history calls the Jacobites, rebels but as Scotland remained an independent kingdom until 1706/7 they could not rebel against the English foreign monarchs because they were not the monarch of Scots who had not deposed their monarch.
Get the picture? Westminster propaganda tells lies. So as to the correct terminology and what Westminster uses in relation to what you commented. I’ll attempt to keep it brief and simple.
The actual personal, “United Kingdom”, of Elizabeth Regina includes her three Crown Protectorates and her UK Of GB& N.I.
However, her Crown Protectorates are not under Westminster rule as they are independent from Westminster.
In essence there are thus two versions of, “The United Kingdom”, One being officially, “Her Majesty’s Government of Her United Kingdom and Her Personal United Kingdom protectorates that includes, Jersey, Guernsey, Man and Her Majesty’s United Kingdom of GB & N.I Government at Westminster.
But, like so many other little facts that The Westminster Establishment doesn’t want you to know, like who is that person that sits next to the Speaker in the House of Commons that is never, ever, mentioned and why is he never mentioned?
Google, “The Remembrancer”, but you will still probably be at a loss as to what that is all about.
Go try it and see what you get.
There is one group that could get us to 60%, but they won’t. If Scottish Labour embraced independence we would win. I think they are the ones actively preventing independence. They are hopelessly tied to the Utopian paradise of a socialist UK. It’s a mythical notion that will never really exist.
After the Brexit result in a spirit of optimism, now obviously misplaced, we in Dundee RIC did do chap quite a few doors in a poorish part of Dundee. We chapped the door of a guy who happily admitted to voting Leave (he thought the UK paid shedloads and got NOTHING, NADA back), he did however vote Yes. I asked him straight if he had another chance to vote Yes, even if it kept Scotland in the EU how he would vote and he thought and decided he would vote Yes again.
He was not alone.
The Yes Leavers are being confronted with the clusterfuck result of their vote. The No Remainers are hoping against hope something will turn up or are sticking their heads in the sand. My No Remaining wife is getting there, by dint of me not bringing the subject up. At the moment she is consumed by the university strike and our youngest’s marriage in May in NZ.
After all that and faced by a referendum campaign she will be forced to consider things, like many, like the woman whose door we chapped late in the last campaign he was apparently unaware that the vote was so soon. We forced her to face up to it.
Dundee is the Yes City, but we voted a paltry 57% off a lower than average turnout. That wasn’t the elderly staying at home, that was complacency. We have to MUST do better next time. We have to do better at dragging folk out to vote. However the means. The Yes areas have to carry the rest. Dundee and Glasgow have to vote more strongly for Yes, with much bigger turnouts. We need to tramp the stairs of the multis and closes to get EVERYONE out. The crack heads’ votes count too, if we can just get them to the polls.
One of us in Dundee RIC tells of being pursued down a close by a druggy. Turned out he just wanted voter reg forms for himself and his girlfriend. I have long wondered if anyone tried to check if they had voted or reminded them.
I think we should collect, with their permission, folk’s mobile numbers so we can text them reminders on referendum day. A few on my phone, a few on yours, on hers, on his. No mass database. Faithful followed through promises to delete the numbers after sending. Something like that. Door chapping on the day is so last century.
Big Jock
You are correct. They are the last impediment.
Robert Peffers says:
Nicola cannot give a date as the time to act depends upon the actions of the Westminster Government.
——————–
100% correct
——————
galamcennalath says:
schrodingers cat says:
treeza could storm out tomorrow and sept this year … would be on the cards
I keep think that is likely.
—————–
so do I, indeed i didnt think they would get past stage 1 at xmas, it appears may has promised that the backstop/default position for NI is no border and the same rules on both sides of the border. i believe what this means is even if they storm out of negotiations that treeza has agreed this is what happens?
it is interesting that treeza gives speeches and newspaper articles report the details but the uk has yet to present its own counter draft treaty proposal, it cant delay that too much longer
Keith Brown will make a first class deputy. His background is exemplary, his control and balance is first class and he comes over very well.He also has done the time which to me is very important indeed.
I think that tactically and strategically the best way to secure independence in Indyref2 will be to make it clear it means an independent Scotland within the EU. I think that people talking about EFTA and Norway type arrangements are making an error.
If we go for anything less than independence within the EU, then I believe that even a Yes vote will not get us independence. There will be pre arranged riots. There was a pre arranged riot in 2014 even when they won. The result after a Yes vote will be British tanks in George Square to “ restore order”. We will be effectively annexed. These people are capable of reducing prosperous independent states to rubble for oil. Scotland would stand no chance.
However, if we are clearly EU citizens within a country determined to remain in the EU, then Westminster will be very much inhibited in their actions against Scotland which will effectively or actually be an EU country. They would risk any Brexit trade agreements with the EU.
We need the strength of the EU behind us to help us through the initial difficult period. RUK need to be forced to treat us with respect.
This is an excellent post by the Rev BTW.
@ schrodingers cat who wrote “the uk has yet to present its own counter draft treaty proposal, it cant delay that too much longer”
Read somewhere that Hammond said the UK was not going to produce any counter-proposal draft. Which means they accept the EU version.
Sorry don’t remember where- was surfing back and forth over a lot of sites this evening
Fred says:
5 March, 2018 at 11:17 pm
Who the fuck is Angela Haggerty?
exactly, these people, loki, cat boyd, haggerty and shafi jumped onto the indy band wagon then started to create waves, arguments in the ranks of yes and are now selected by the msm as spokes persons for us and the yes movement. they arent, they are opportunists. i blocked the lot of them on twitter the other day. hell mend them
bear in mind, they take the places on msm of those that do represent us, eg stu and wgd.
@ben
that sounds about right, i cant see them put anything on paper which wouldnt result in a meltdown of the tories.
what i dont get is the way the media presents treeza’s speeches as some kind of substitute, they arent, they are speeches and not worth the paper they are written on.
Black Donald says:
5 March, 2018 at 11:44 pm
if we are clearly EU citizens within a country determined to remain in the EU, then Westminster will be very much inhibited in their actions against Scotland which will effectively or actually be an EU country.
—————-
that worked well for catalunia. maybe someday, the EU will be a federal state with its own army, I hope so but until then it is a trading block. it couldnt and wouldnt stop westminster or madrid even if it wanted to
Theresa May mentioned her Scottish Conservative MPs today
I was born in Scotland says Douglas Ross
A cat can have kittens in your oven but that disnae make them biscuits…says me
Big Jock
“Scottish Labour embraced independence we would win. I think they are the ones actively preventing independence. They are hopelessly tied to the Utopian paradise of a socialist UK. It’s a mythical notion that will never really exist.”
A bit reluctant to say ‘never’, especially in politics. However, if they had half a brain they should realise that the best possible chance of that result throughout the present UK would be if an independent Scotland provided a clearly successful living example for their English cousins.
Schrodingers Cat
Fair point.
However, Spain is an EU country and RUK won’t be. So it’s not quite the same.
EU seem to be backing Ireland quite well over Brexit.
I think the Rev is right. Independence in the EU, then a referendum once we are settled. We can see how Brexit goes for RUK and the EU for Scotland. I have some concerns about EU, but I think it is mandatory in the short to medium term, for security, and to keep the EU nationals and Remainers on board. We will have a veto too.
This posting is aboot radio shortbreed
Did you hear the interview they did earlier yesterday with the American musician… that they’re promoting the now on the wireless and is playing Glasgow today…
Was asked a question by the host and she replied summin’ like:
“Yeah, it’s been great playing here in England”
To which the host laughingly said:
“That’s Scotland, giggle giggle giggle”
Hey, enjoy Scotland, Michelle Shocked, ye need to learn first.
…safe journey home to
AmericaCANADA!See how THAT feels to you.
Sychronise your watches and clocks everybuddy:
link to youtube.com
(10,806,235 comments)
X.
They have grudgingly introduced and are now playing a song called “INDEPENDENCE” on the above station.
Go figure?
Cubby@10.37 idiot sayings.
No.1 “we are Better Together”
No 2 – ‘Our Precious Union’.
After midnight.
When in doubt, let it out…
Here’s one for all you cartoon lovers out there:
link to youtube.com
Cert 18 Warning: The above video contained naughty sweary words.
It’s all out there.
It is coming…
Breaking news….Aston Martin to quit Britain for America
@Dr Jim
Yeah, I couldn’t believe it when I saw the headline on The National website. Yes, thank goodness Keith Brown is standing for depute, it’d be hard to find a better candidate.
Brilliant article, really this is a very good summary of how things are, and what to do next. The Britnats will be straight onto this looking for ideas about who to target at indy ref#2.
UKLabour can keep attempting to fool the people into voting for their pretendy socialism, but really, it’s as clear as day that they are in bed with the tories.
If it is the case that EU citizens in Scotland are to be banned by the UKGov from voting in Scotland, we must let them know it’s not the ScotGov stopping them, because we can be sure the Britnat lying media will lie about the reasons for it.
O/T
I see today that parts of the south of England are in fact, without drinking water, and have been all weekend. All private companies, and has any English minister been harrassed into resigning? Can you imagine if 1000s of people were without water for days, in Scotland, they would be after the heads of any minister in the SNP.
Makes you wonder who should be taking responsibility for 1000s of people being without drinking water, for days, in the south of England. Are people not a wee bit peeved at it all, this is after all, ‘strong and stable UKOK’, in 2018. Oh dear.
@Yesindyref2
Remember Keith Browns handling of the Goon Twonks over Scotlands magnificent queensferry bridge that the media always avoid pictures of by standing in front of the old rail bridge when reporting thur mince
He’ll do for me, and he’s a nice man if you’re nice to him, but just the opposite if you’re not
@ proud cyby 3.24 pm
great link cyby and could be used on a poster , this could be very emotive for grandparents . The future for Scotland and the vision of that future deserves a partnership of experience and youthful fearlessness .
Granny and Granda don’t ruin your grandkids future
BTW I’m 67 and Scotland aye
Dr Jim @ 01:31,
And so it begins…
Now is the time, to focus.
@Dr Jim
He was a Marine and served in the Falklands apparently, not the easiest of numbers.
Just to be a bit controversial as always, this headline from the Express last week is why we still need our Scottish only media:
“SNP rebels launch ‘unwelcome and unwanted’ bid to KEEP EU laws in Scotland after Brexit”
compared to the Herald same day:
“Nicola Sturgeon to publish Holyrood Brexit Bill in dramatic clash with Westminster”
Our problems and how to solve them…
Vote Yes.
Dr Jim @ 1.31am
Speaking as a Scottish rugby fan – any chance they can take Austin Healey with them?
Alternatively:
Our problems and how to resolve them.
Vote aye tae i.
@Meg merrilees
Defo looks like `The Green Ink Gang` (or paid Astroturfers) have hijacked the comments section,
very similar theme to a lot of their comments,all individual but containing the same message,
the site says `This forum will close at 5pm on Tuesday 6 March.`
urge all Wingers to put their tuppence worth in and pass the message on,
link to tinyurl.com
Mornin’ Scot ~
Awe ra best Scottish pal.
Not too long to go now till race day.
Cheers.
Come in Ken500 ~
Now is your time.
Love Caledonia.
Love Wings.
X.
James VII was never crowned King of Scots, probably as the coronation would be a Protestant one, William of Orange couldn’t be arsed either. Scotland was only important to this family when canon-fodder was required. Charles II was the last Scots king, the others were English kings!
We miss the links and a reason for people to come to this site every morning.
Yes fair missing Nana and her links, but everyone needs a rest now and then.
Haste Ye back Nana.
Meg Merrilees at 1031pm,
With that ‘consultation’ on how the UK and Scottish ~Government could work ‘better together’ etc.. I think it is easy to work out EXACTLY where it will lead. This so-called ‘consultation’ is being run as a pretext to draconian action against Scottish democracy in the aftermath/just before of brexit.
In the same way, that is why we are seeing companies plastering their products (from furniture to apples) in the butcher’s apron, because once brexit kicks in, the mantra will be ‘buy british’. Scotland as a brand will be dropped – ‘scotch’ whisky will be something made in kentucky. The full weight of british media and Government propaganda is probably being planned right now.
Margaret Thatcher’s Government crucified Scottish industry, to make Scots ‘come to heel’, and make no mistake Theresa May is even worse. They will happily trash anything that is Scottish. They want Scots to shut the f*** up and do what London wants.
All the signs are there. Listen to their rhetoric, listen to their utter contempt and hatred for Scotland – except as their colonial plaything – their personal possession to do with as they so please.
As part of that, in likely just a few months, we will start to see the propaganda ratcheted up against the Scottish Government AND parliament. They will say ‘look brits, it is the Scottish Government that is preventing trade agreements, and we really need a ‘united’ britain, to make the most of brexit’ etc…etc..
Make no mistake, it is coming, and we may end up with more of a fight on our hands that we currently anticipate.
Westminster right now, is set on a course of rampant extreme British Nationalism. Poor Catalonia, is not so very far away, and I do not doubt that their will be some in the current extremist right wing government in London, who will have watched what happened, and how the international community sat back and said/did nothing, whilst unarmed voters were brutalised by police. In London, they see the Scottish Government and parliament in the very same way Spain’s Fascist Mariano Rajoy, and their hated king see the Catalonians.
schrodingers cat says:
At 11:36pm
Phase 1 isn’t a binding treaty yet. The UK didn’t produce their idea of a legal document, but the EU just have.
For me the logic seems inescapable.
1. TMay’s ideas are a non starter because of her red lines. Already the EU are saying her parallel regulations aren’t on
2. The EU will come back with ‘Canada’
3. If she signs up for Phase 1’s soft Irish border, then ‘Canada’ means a hard border the Irish Sea
4. She will then lose DUP backing and fall
5. The hard Brexiteers’ dream dies, one way or another
So, she can’t even sign the Exit Treaty i.e. Phase 1 IMO.
She has to crash out
I see the Wings fundraiser is up. Just before I go off to smash the piggy bank, here’s a chilling tweet from Stu’s twitter about Westminster’s need to trade away Scotland in the BREXIT future:
Southern Uplander (@UpIander) Tweeted:
Some of the comments on that UK Govt consultation page on devolution are deranged: “Sturgeon has destroyed Scotland!” “Devolution must be defeated,” others, like this one, are chilling because they’re probably true:
link to t.co
Talking about being deranged The Scotsman prints crazy letter from Jacobite Party leader (probably sole member) attacking Humza Yousaf over response to recent bad weather.
Dr Jim says:
6 March, 2018 at 1:31 am
Breaking news….Aston Martin to quit Britain for America
link to archive.is
Airbus
Airbus may leave UK unless there is urgent clarity on Brexit trade
Plane maker fears future customs and paperwork delays will make UK plants uncompetitive”
That The Graun “urgent clarity,” is very Graun tory. Imagine the newstand fury and rage at an SNP gov creating this mayhem.
UK tory msm had better have a plan to hire all the unemployed in teamGB. Maybe workers for corps like Airbus could just up sticks and move with them to the EU.
Oh wait.
Capella says:
Gosh. Someone who actually sounds keen to lower standards so we can be flooded with food currently considered unfit for human consumption!
Fair enough, if England wants to take that road. What really gets me is that they somehow believe they have some divine right to drag us down with them.
May will not last the year. Can’t even get legislation through the Commons. A rocket through right enough. She just makes up stuff. The Tories could not make a bigger mess. Labour are useless. What a way to run an administration. Dumb and dumber.
The only one speaking any sense in Nicola and folk know it. Thank goodness for the SNP standing up for people.
Just keep voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Ibdependence. Get another to vote too.
@Bill McDermott says: 5 March, 2018 at 9:20 pm:
“Just as Brexit is the Mot du Jour, so the SG needs to increase the heat and get into the news everyday/week about campaigning on policies for the future economy of Scotland. Andrew Wilson’s strategic review of Scotland’s economy surely should be the starting point.”
Oh! Bill, You better reconcile yourself to the truth that the SNP and the wider Grassroots YES movement are never, this side of independence, going to be able to get the truth onto the Scottish Main Stream Media.
That media is owned either directly by the Westminster Government, (the BBC is NOT funded by the Licence payer but by an annual treasury grant decided by Westminster). The so called independent broadcasters are owned by, mainly, tax evading non-dom extremely wealthy Tory supporters.
However, there are now on-line sources that the SMSM continually tell you are the liars. The point is that in spite of that media bias the long term trend is a movement towards independence.
As to how the EU parliament regards Scottish independence – have a look at this. It was in reply to Nigel Farage in the EU Parliament followed by an unprecedented standing ovation for Alyn Smyth Scottish MEP:-
link to youtube.com
and this at Westminster:-
link to youtube.com
Tell me, did you see either shown properly on the SMSM news broadcasts?
There is a really tremendous support for Scotland throughout the European Union and an equally anti-Westminster distrust and irritation with English/British politicians.
Its a funny old world, ( united ).
We have 2 football teams in Dundee, one is called united and one is simply called Dundee, these two football clubs are right next to each other, so they are in the same area of the city, and yet they are not united into one club, this little post is about the way the word united is used and how in lots of cases it has lost its true meaning.
United Nations……… You will seldom get this organisation of talking heads to agree to anything, it is in fact a very good example of the misuse of the word united, there are too many examples of whats wrong with this abomination as it is today, to put them all down here.
America, Russia, China, Britain, France, spend trillions on armaments that are used against even their own members in the big united club in New York.
Israel….. Every time Israel does something wrong the usual players make sure they have a vote to express their disgust, lets take Iran for example, Iran locks up and has never given any human rights to gay people since an old guy came back from france and decided he and his lovely pals would be in charge, as anyone who knows about old chubby cheeks will know i am being facetious, because he was a religious man, yes, he was so religious that he done the work of his god, he killed anyone that did not adhere to that word, ofc, the only word was his and his pals, because no god, real or imagined asks anyone to kill another human being, i mean if you built a car, you would not say to anyone, here is a hammer, go and smash my car up.
Well. the United Nations allows lots of countries like Iran to sit there, while killing and murdering their own people, and allow them to vote against another country that they hate just simply because they are not of their religion, they never condemn themselves for anything, well if you have no human rights in your country you can do as you like, because the so called United Nations is as united as the two clubs in Dundee, but in their favour, i have to say the Dundee clubs have never went along with people killing each other, for whatever reason people seem to think they have the right to do so.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
DUP spokesman on the wireless this morning, wasn’t probed at all & had an easy ride. His party expect cooperation from everybody even if cooperation in the NI Assembly is oot the windae & NI voted to stay in the EU. This party live on another planet entirely. The most thrawn bastards in the universe probably!
Stu argues for independence first then sort out the EU afterwards.
3 wee objections. Firstly, is there time for this twin track? Secondly, people understand that the SNP have been in favour of independence in Europe for at least a decade now. Many voters like that stance and see it as sensible as we’ll need the strength of the EU to stand up to exploitation from our large neighbour, England, once we achieve independence. So the SNP, if not the entire wider independence movement, need to remain constantly favourable to EU membership, or they’d lose credibility.
The last objection is strategic. The Tories are making such a horrendous mess of Brexit negotiations that the Scottish Government can project themselves as wiser, more competent and far more in tune with the consistent and unified EU negotiators. We cannot do that if we’re hedging our bets and sounding at least on Europe a bit like like Boris or Ruth. Timing is all and we need a simple message to win through this time. I believe we need to be on the side of the EU and we need the EU on our side,
Incidentally, I am a pensioner and most of the pensioners I know favour independence! Far more fertile ground now than in the lead up to 2014. And we like the EU! Gets us cheap flight s to the Canaries in the Scottish winters. That keeps us young
Sinky at 9.23
The Jacobites were unionists looking for the English throne and I have never been able to understand the affection some nationalists seem to have for them. I have seen such a person online and removed him.
I had the misfortune to see Angela Haggerty on STV while at my daughter’s. AH was clearly there to do her usual snide undermining of the SNP, which we have come to expect from the Infantile Left.
The Deputy Leader’s job has become a “coronation”: it was worrying/suspicious/very boring so many people have ruled themselves out, says Angela. I found her comments shallow and uninformed, particularly those on Keith Brown.
I think he is the best candidate by far: personally charming but tough as teak when he has to be, and he handles interviews with the hacks extremely well because he can think on his feet and sound confident and assured.
Angela must be loving all the gigs she’s getting on MSM as the go-to pretendy independista du jour, while she secretly dreams of Jeremy’s Great Socialist New Jerusalem at the next GE and all that lovely, fuzzy (one-way) solidarity we Scots proletariat can show the bus drivers in Liverpool and the futon makers of Budleigh Salterton.
What a phoney!
*teeth ground to the gums*
Totally O/T
Political/Intellectual Documentary Type….highly entertaining.
The Best of Enemies
Buckley v Vidal
Netflix
#TheLoserStandingSmall
David Crines.
Good points but look at Teresa in action right now. Did Scotland vote for this tory reign of insanity, in Brexit England?
Herald, 10 hours ago, archive is makes it go paywall so,
The lady’s not for budging: May’s turn to dig heels in over Brexit Bill
WHITEHALL has intensified the political stand-off with Edinburgh over Brexit, making clear that it will move “no further” on its flagship legislation, meaning a constitutional crisis now looks inevitable.
At the weekend Nicola Sturgeon dug her heels in, insisting she would “not compromise” on what she sees as the principle of devolution; that all 111 powers and responsibilities being transferred from Brussels post Brexit should go directly to Holyrood.
She explained: “There is an issue of principle at stake that we won’t compromise on because if we did, we would allow Westminster to exercise a power-grab on the responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament and I don’t think any First Minister worth their salt should agree to that.”
Brexit analysis: PM and FM in stand-off over EU Withdrawal Bill powers
But the UK Government, having moved to accept that 86 powers and responsibilities would go straight to the Scottish Parliament, wants to “freeze” temporarily 25 others so that common UK-wide frameworks can be agreed.
It says it wants a “safety brake” to ensure that in the time it takes to agree common frameworks on issues like agriculture, fishing and environmental protection – probably extending over several months – the First Minister and her colleagues do not in this period introduce changes that could undermine the UK’s internal market.
A Whitehall source close to the talks said: “I don’t sense us moving from our position. We have already moved a hell of a long way and we can’t move any further in the way the Scottish Government wants us to do. We’re still talking and officials are working hard to find a way through but I don’t know whether we can now bridge that gap.”
At the weekend, Michael Russell, the Scottish Government’s Brexit Minister, suggested that the deadlock came down to a single word: “agree” to rather than “consult” on the frameworks.
Brexit analysis: PM and FM in stand-off over EU Withdrawal Bill powers
But the UK Government believes that any veto Holyrood would have over its role in protecting the integrity of the UK-wide market would be a step too far. “This,” insisted one source, “would be giving away too much.”
Talks involving Mr Russell and David Lidington, Theresa May’s de facto deputy, are due to resume on Thursday but no breakthrough is expected; rather, a key moment will come next Wednesday when the Prime Minister chairs a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Council, where she will sit across the table from Ms Sturgeon.
While UK ministers are hoping to get agreement from their Scottish counterparts on their proposed changes to the EU Withdrawal Bill by the end of the committee stage in the Lords later this month, there is still an option to amend it at report stage, which could run to as late as May before it has to go to Edinburgh for MSPs to give or withhold their consent.
If no agreement is given, then Mrs May and her colleagues believe the issue will end up in the “court of public opinion” as to who is to blame for the constitutional deadlock and are confident most Scottish voters will not point the finger at them.
In the Commons, the PM, making a statement on her Brexit speech, told MPs that the country could “not escape the complexity of the task ahead” yet with “pragmatism, calm and patient discussion, I am confident we can set an example to the world”.
Mrs May accepted there would be ups and downs in the coming months but insisted: “We will not be buffeted by the demands to talk tough or threaten or walk out. And we will not give in to the counsels of despair that this simply cannot be done, for this is in both the UK’s and EU’s interests.”
Brexit analysis: PM and FM in stand-off over EU Withdrawal Bill powers
But Jeremy Corbyn berated the Tory Government for the “20 wasted months” since the EU referendum during which the “arrogance” of some Cabinet ministers, who bragged it would be the “easiest deal in history,” had turned into “debilitating infighting”.
The Labour leader argued: “Her speech on Friday promised to unite the nation but it barely papered over the cracks in her own party.”
Ian Blackford for the SNP complained about the absence of Scottish Secretary David Mundell from the recent Brexit strategy meeting at Chequers, claiming it showed a “flagrant disregard by this Government for the nations that make up the United Kingdom”.
Today, the PM, Mr Lidington and David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, will hold talks in Downing Street with Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s chief co-ordinator, while in Brussels Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is due to meet Arlene Foster, the Democratic Unionist leader.
As officials resume the UK-EU negotiations this week, today a key moment will come when the EU27 publishes its draft negotiating guidelines for a post-Brexit trade deal.
Yesterday evening, Chancellor Philip Hammond told MPs some £700 million had now been spent on Brexit preparations “for a full range of outcomes”. Another £3 billion has been earmarked.
What a phoney!
*teeth ground to the gums*
And she lives in London now too, finger on the Scottish politics pulse wise.
The DUP are just criminals. They do not follow UK Law. They just want a licence to do what they like and get away with it. The irony is direct UK rule will bring same sex marriage, equal rights, abortion, Irish language. The very policies they are fighting against, They are beyond belief.
NI gets the biggest settlement in the UK for unionist votes and to keep them quiet. £42Billion for 1.5million people. Scotland gets £Billions taken by Westminster criminals.
Sensibledave = horrible offensive arrogant British Nationalist TROLL
“And she lives in London now too.”
Really? Didn’t know that. Good for the expenses for her Scoddish gigs.
Perfick!
Dave McEwan Hill says:
I tended to think that way. One lot of Brits versus another, however, we may be totally wrong …
“Almost everything you believe you know about the Jacobites is a deliberate lie “
link to craigmurray.org.uk
I don’t waste my time with pensioners they care about no one but themselves, as long as they have free bus passes, clod weather payments, free prescriptions etc.
As for Labour Britnats whenever they complain about austerity and council cuts, they shold be constanly reminded this is what the campigned and voted for in 214.
So they shouldn’t be complaining now they got what they wanted.
Who knew?
link to archive.is
Cubby says:
6 March, 2018 at 11:03 am
Sensibledave = horrible offensive arrogant British Nationalist TROLL
Cubby dont let these guys get to you bud. Its what they’re all online now trying to do, wind you up.
Sensible d’s worth watching if only because he’s a perfect tory parrot, parroting the tory party line, tory beeb’s gimpy line, then the Brexit line, then the UK rule of Scotland forever line etc.
All of them have one thing in common, they think they have full control of the whole toryboy UK rule forever and ever narrative.
So they go nuts when they see they really do not.
Sensible d hates everything about Scotland’s very young democracy for obvs reasons, it loosening England’s control of Scotland as a UK region by the day.
So for example, sensible d really hates to be told how he voted Brexit wise. Sensible d can tell us how we voted but the toryboy rage when it’s returned is very toryboy ugly. And yet sensible d proudly voted toryboy Cameron, who promised toryboy’s like sensible a Brexit ref.
A good example of really cunning beeb gimp tory propaganda, BBC r4 style, last night. Beeb r4 gimps are in one party state UK, vote tory propaganda overdrive now. The narrator’s a very hard core tory boot boy, but he’s clearly cheezed off at Remainers calling Leavers stupid.
Again, who gave teamGB this catastrophic Brexit ref? the tory creepshow.
Does this beeb gimp mention this in his private vote toryboy and stop being mean to Leavers show? Non.
link to bbc.co.uk
Interestin comments on Craig Murray, never could figure out the affection the landless MacGregor’s had for the Stewarts who did their level best to wipe them from the face of the earth!
@heedtraker 11.23
Thanks for your concern but I am cool.
Just putting down a simple marker for anyone new to the site. If it has the added bonus of annoying desperatedave than that’s a nice bonus.
Cubby says:
6 March, 2018 at 11:33 am
@heedtraker 11.23
Thanks for your concern but I am cool.
OK!
England’s got a lot to lose, in this 21st toryboy century.
They began the 20th century ruling half the planet, fast forward a hundred years and its all change, for a medium sized country that’s now sitting on the rim of a giant European union, who the toryboy’s think they can push around, like they’re Scotland.
Brexit and Scottish democracy are very real threats, not just to English power and prestige across the planet but to toryboy hegemony too.
Not everyone in England’s a toryboy, although it probably feels like it, if youre a English msm consumer. Which you probably have to be to have any news at all.
independence has become something of a weasel word so it is perhaps the time, given the use of the word by Brexit apologists, to clearly define what is meant by the term in a Scottish context.
Similarly sovereignty requires some clarification.
We all think we know what is meant by such terms, until we meet a definition that fudges the issue.
Some Scottish nationalists hold to a view that the British connexion should not be broken, that the monarchy and Commonwealth can be accommodated within an iScotland while others think a clean break in the Irish mode is the only true independence.
The SNP seems to go for the first soft option. Although the National party has republicans within it we, officially, hear little from them.
Voters like clarity, this issue, like the previous messy affair of ‘which currency’, should not offer ‘fudge’ to media controlling Unionist propagandists.
The independence movement’s prime mover needs to be more transparent.
I am one of the final group, a Yes Leaver, BUT I support YES first and leave second, I also know we need trade ties with the EU if Scotland ever did leave, and for that I would vote for an EFTA (EEA) deal, with the four movements as part of the deal PLUS Schengen, it would give us true freedom of movement, while giving us a bit more control over our EEZ.
I am in the minority of being a Yes supporting fisherman, as is my father who we have both seen the industry ruined by hapless Westminster governments, first by the London agreement which alllowed Dutch vessels free access to what would be the Scottish 200 nm EEZ, then the failed CFP/CFP2 which by using quotas rather than other ideas which have proven economically and enviromentally better such as the Faeroes and Iceland use, closing waters around their zones to allow the habitats to flourish. The fishermen fail to realise that much of the UK caught marine life goes direct to the EU, mostly Spain and France, but also to the former Soviet states as well.
Give theleave voters the promise of a referendum after independence from Westminster and you will soon see those coming back, but better arguments are needed by both sides in that battle as well
Many Yes voters voted remain knowing that the rest of the UK would vote leave, giving us material change ( I did say I was pro leave the EU , but I voted remain for that reason alone) but the numbers are skewed due to that reason as well
Remember to make your thoughts known about Devolution… this is an all out attempt to shut down the Scottish Parliament and remove the Devolution settlement. After you have made your donation to Wings, i urge you to go tot this site and register your comments.
link to parliament.uk
David Crines @ 10.15
I can see what you are sayin David,but!!!
Because Article 50 has been triggered, the current EU arrangements are gone.
This is where the politicians calling for a second Brexit referendum are being dishonest.
New EU Treaty arrangements for the UK will need to be made anyway, stay or leave.
Scotland can’t just “pick up” the pre article 50 membership that the UK had…..we will need one of our own.
So it would make sense to have Independence only on the ballot….
Otherwise we (the Scottish electorate) would just be handing Holyrood and Brussels permission to negotiate “something”.
We need time to work out our wealth and our assets, so that we and the EU would know our TRUE worth to the EU as a trading partner.
Then WE should get to consent to the arrangements that both Holyrood and Brussels have worked out.
Don’t forget that during Indy Ref 2 the impression will be given and heavily promoted that Scotland isn’t all that,wealthy.
Half of Scotland and most of England,it seems to me, believe that right now….so chances are a fair few in Brussels will too!
Even the Scottish government can only give an educated guess.
We don’t want to be makin new Treaties under those conditions!
The only Country who will have a fair idea of our true wealth is Norway…. And if memory serves EFTA did indicate during Indy ref 1 Scotland could join!
So the best outcome for Scotland is, I think,some sort of holding pattern.
Till we collate our assets and resources and then work out the best way forwards.
Hello everyone, hope to be back tomorrow and in the meantime here’s a few links.
Worth pointing out – again – that EU citizens will only lose their voting rights in local and devolved elections if domestic law is changed post-Brexit. Also @scotgov is currently consulting on extending the franchise to everyone legally resident in Scotland.
link to twitter.com
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Brexit: no clear way out?
link to eureferendum.com
link to politicshome.com
link to theneweuropean.co.uk
link to opendemocracy.net
link to politics.co.uk
The fantasy of Sinn Féin taking their seats lets down voters in Northern Ireland
link to archive.is
Just visited at the right time!
Thank you Nana
@Highland Wifie
Here’s a few more, apologies if any have already been posted, not had time to check.
link to indyref2.scot
link to politics.co.uk
UK farmers caught between Brexit and changing consumer tastes
link to ft.com
link to middleeasteye.net
Thanks Nana
The EU nationals could apply for citizenship. (joint?)
Imagine not having the SNP standing up for people. What these Westminster unionist bastards would do to Scotland.
Just keep voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other to vote as well. Job done.
BBC trying to exalt Thatcher achievement’s? She had interest rates at 15%, over 3 million unemployed and devastated Scottish industry. Illegally and secretly taking the exivalent of £Billions out of Scotland. Thatcher deregulated world wide banking causing the banking crash. Sold off utilities etc.
The Tories could not make a bigger mess. The average member is male and over seventy. They have to drag people to stand for their them.
@Nana
Ta Nana. 🙂
Hope you’re keeping well.
Your welcome Ken
@Macart
I’m ok Sam,a few problems with wrist and finger joints but I am following orders from physio team. It’s not easy to behave 🙂
Thank you Nana.
We need to keep the newcomers coming back, as their don’t get any real Scottish news on the TV.
@YouGov are rigging a poll to bias the answers against Scottish independence. This is deep Tory manipulation of public opinion.
link to twitter.com
The government’s attempt to cover up the DUP’s dirty little secret will come to a full vote in the House of Commons tomorrow. Labour source says they tried “all kinds of tricks” last night to stop it being voted on. “They are up to something”:
link to twitter.com
link to irishnews.com
Tory MP accused of ‘physically threatening’ comedian in BBC interview gone wrong
link to rt.com
BREXIT. ‘Vauxhall Chief Warns of Brexit Threat to Ellesmere Port’
Our friends in England are being warned again.
From BBC England Business Section this morning:
” The head of Vauxhall has said lack of clarity over Brexit threatens the future of its Ellesmere Port operation.
Carlos Tavares, chief executive of PSA which owns Vauxhall, Peugeot and Citroen, said clarity over the terms of the UK’s departure is “a big concern”.
He told the BBC that uncertainty undermined Ellesmere Port’s chances of getting more work after 2021.
“We cannot invest in a world of uncertainty,” he said.
He added: “No one is going to make huge investments without knowing what will be the final competitiveness of the Brexit outcome.”
Tories and Labour are certainly not providing certainty. 🙁
link to archive.is
This is good news…Theresa says No more movement on EU powers to Holyrood.
link to archive.is
Which surely means this…(if there are technical inaccuracies in my comments, feel free to correct them, as i do not assume i am 100% correct when commenting, and any corrections are welcome to maintain accuracy of content..cheers in advance folks).
……..
When TM says “let the court of public opinion decide”, she is smoking crack.
If the issue is not resolved, the issue will end up in court alright, a LAW court.
In that law court, the question will surely be posed…
Are the people of scotland the Sovereign power, as per the Act and treaties of Union itself, particularly the Declaration of Arbroath, of which both union partners are signatories ?
There is only one possible answer, YES, they are.
As such, WM ignoring a Holyrood Legislative Consent Motion is a clear subjugation of the Sovereign Scots will.
That surely means the Union is legally ended by clear breach of the Act and Treaties of union 1707.
No referendum needed ?
This is why the Holyrood Continuity Bill is THE game changer, as it legally formalises the Sewell Convention (LCM) and removes the phrase “not NORMALLY”, used in the Article 50 case, which allowed The tory gov to ignore the Scots gov refusal to give Legislative consent.
The Supreme Court shied away from ruling on WM ability to ignore a LCM on the ACTUAL Brexit Bill, as it knew the SG would surely invoke the legal Scots Sovereignty question, which would have killed brexit stone dead there and then.
She didn’t seem to realise it, or maybe she did, but in that moment, she had effectively ended the union.
If the refuses to allow ALL 111 returning powers direct passage to Holyrood, there WILL be a constitutional crisis, one she cannot legally win.
Bring it on i say.
…………………..
@Nana
Take as long as you need. 🙂
On RCs tweet? Was it ever in doubt? Yes, they will attempt to rig polls in their favour and they’ll do a damn sight worse than that before the dust settles in the next year.
@Nana
That’s me sorted for the afternoon. Plenty reading there.
Thanks again and stay well!
Hi Nana
Welcome back we missed you.
Your off to quite a start with all those links..
Talk aboot a Lady who can make an entrance.. LOL..
Take it easy though and stay well.
Great to see Nana back!
That DUP thing’s scary. Imagine politicians with great power like Foster that don’t “believe” in dinosaurs.
DUP’s Ban the Irish language at least makes sense Brit wise but there were never any dinosaurs?!
Its quite scary really, in 2018.
Wales
AMs vote to speed EU Continuity Bill through assembly
link to archive.is
link to eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk
link to mollymep.org.uk
Please sign this petition
link to snp.org
Meg Merrilee’s @ 12.16
Well that’s my tuppence worth done.
Although I must admit it was hard to stay sensible and give honest suggestions, without feeling that,I was helping Westminster to think of how to “manage” devolution.
But it’s probably to little to late anyway!
Hi Liz g
Not sure I can go for miles but you never know with a rocket
link to youtube.com
Nana, thanks for the links. It is a wet dreich afternoon; Netflix or Nana’s links?
This, ‘don’t believe dinosaurs existed’ is a joke, surely?
That’s the realm of flat-Earth end-time child-marrying anti-federal-government gun-toting US red necks!
@brewsed
well I’ve done my bit, I’m off to Netflix 🙂
That’s the realm of flat-Earth end-time child-marrying anti-federal-government gun-toting US red necks!
Its christian fundamentalism isn’t it?
They say that fossils are what’s left over from the Flood.
That’s fine,nuts but now one of them is essentially more powerful than the UK PM, who is also very clearly a flake, a tory flake.
Why else would Teresa have held a snap GE, unless she was trying to lose, which is quite possible considering her snap GE campaign issues, like vote tory to legalise fox hunting.
Even flakes are cunning, tory flakes.
The problem with being perfidious Albion for centuries is that the rest of the world are fully aware of the perfidy! And this is made much worse when they lack the self awareness to know how others see them !
This is an accurate portrayal of the situation.
“…. a senior European official dismissed the idea that Britain could ever be trusted with the same deal outside the EU as Norway enjoys today. ….. the British are viewed with suspicion – seen as hiding cunning behind charm, using manners as a cloak for ruthlessness, and, at their core, being strategic, stubborn and mercantile. “
link to archive.is
the British are viewed with suspicion – seen as hiding cunning behind charm, using manners as a cloak for ruthlessness, and, at their core, being strategic, stubborn and mercantile. “
Its deeper than that though. The EU have given in, bent over backwards, negotiated away almost everything the toryboys of the UK zone demanded of them, well probably everything bar freedom of movement, red and blue tories too.
And then they flounce out.
Even the great Sensible dave’s been on here Project Fearting the EU, “are you EU rotters really going to end your £200+bn trade with us, well are you?!”
Project Fear probably held together this union with England in 2014, so its going to be interesting to see if it works with 27 nation EU too.
galamcennalath at 2019
And that lot will use their deceitful two faced lying cheating tactics again in the next referendum.
Takes a while to start
Official Statement from Mark McDonald MSP
link to twitter.com
link to holyrood.com
@ Nana, great to see U back, sink full of dirty dishes I’m afraid!
Gordon Brewer, the hauf-biled communist who never found a workin-jaiket that fitted!
@Fred
Never mind Fred, the dishes will get done eventually 🙂
This closes at 5pm today, get your comments in quickly
link to parliament.uk
From this morning’s meeting re the continuity bill, I hear the unionists were rather annoyed.
Neil Findlay, the fannies fanny.
link to twitter.com
I think you might be able to watch it here
link to trulyscottishtv.com
link to randompublicjournal.com
link to theferret.scot
@Capella
That’s an excellent submission, wonder who put that together?
Wonderful to see you back, Nana.
@DMH, galamcennalath & Fred.
Re: Jacobites.
Like almost every aspect of our history, this topic has been twisted to suit a Unionist narrative. Murray Pittock, who has held posts at both Edinburgh, Strathclyde, Manchester and Glasgow universities, has exploded these myths in three books on the Jacobites, the most accessible of which is probably “The Myth of The Jacobite Clans”.
From the blurb on the back cover: ” British history had long sought to caricature Jacobitism rather than understand it, and…the Jacobite risings drew on extensive lowland support and had a national quality within Scotland.
This new, expanded edition…examine the systematic misrepresentation of Jacobitism, the impressive size of the Jacobite armies…and the Jacobite goal of DISSOLVING THE UNION (my capitals).”
The book “sounds the call for an end to the dismissive sneers and pointless romanticization which have dogged the history of the subject in Scotland for 200 years.”
The subject could be dismissed as irrelevant to modern day Scotland, but it is a reminder that our own history has continually been rewritten and misrepresented by unionist “historians”. Edward I’s obsessive desire to grab and destroy as many Scottish historical records as he could (as mentioned by Breeks recently) is just one example of this process.
To put it briefly, we’ve been sold a pup (and it’s crapping on our carpet).
@ Nana, Fauldhoose’s Finest, the Fanny’s Fanny indeed!
How clueless is Findlay. They are trying to take away major Scotland devolved powers. He goes along with it. The 3rd rate reject and his 3rd reject Tory mate. They even changed the electoral system, without consultation so voters can’t get rid of them.
The £5 increase for child benefit? The Westminster Treasury would not give the Scottish Gov the information to relieve the welfare benefit cuts. The SNP Gov has to find a way around it. £100Million a year. Plus increased nursery provision etc.
Is Findlay going to go around knocking on doors to give out the fivers. The administration would cost more.
What planet are these people on.
One more for now
This briefing provides a summary of the key provisions in the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland) Bill which was introduced in the Scottish Parliament on 27 February 2018.
https://digitalpublications.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefings/Report/2018/3/6/UK-Withdrawal-from-the-European-Union–Legal-Continuity—Scotland–Bill
Today’s National, Alex Salmond never missed Murdo Fraser & hit the wall!
when I have spoken to no voters, many still think we are too poor to be independent. This with them is important. I basically say – HMRC collected £533 Bn from the UK in 2015/16 of which £46Bn is attributable to Scotland, we get back £30Bn via Barnett formula so what happens to the £16 Bn. If they want me to prove this I e-mail them the following:- HMRC collect around £533Bn in taxes from all the UK 2015/16 see link to gov.uk – For you clever types the disaggregated link to HMRC figures are here link to gov.uk. I think £46Bn of this amount is attributable to Scotland? Of this amount £30Bn is given back to Scotland via the Barnett formula, £16Bn short of what we send south. My view is that tax collected in Scotland should stay in Scotland, with an amount much less than £16Bn sent to cover reserved stuff. It has taken me around 5 minutes to check this information. Figures readily available from HMRC show Scotland is a wealthy nation. We are badly disadvantaged by being in this messed up union. Hope this post makes sense?
Worth reading.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
The main group that this ignores of those who are simply not convinced. The majority of no voters that I speak to were not convinced by the yes proposition, whether that be in relation to currency, transitional planning, security of jobs and or many other issues. This article ignores these people, and in reality to win independent these people ( and their concerns) need to be convinced.
I was working in the third sector during indyref1, and the predominantly women I worked with, never mentioned what yes could offer, as all they spoke about was loss of pensions, too wee, too poor, what would happen to their children when we haven’t got the support of england.
They were working all hours of the day and night and only received news from radio in their cars or occasionally from TVs in homes they were visiting, so if social media had been used more by the yes side, the information they could have got might have changed more than a few minds from no to yes.
Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes, £16Billion for (UK) pensions/welfare benefits paid from Scottish taxes. £3.5Billion Defence. Including £1Billion Trident. A total waste of money. £Billions in interest payments for loan repayments not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Scottish block grant was cut 10% a year from 2010. £3Billion. Block grant cut. Now less than £30Billion? £27Billion?
Oil & Gas sector taxed 40% since Jan 2016. Oil tax was increased to 80% in 2011 Budget. The price fell 75% it was still taxed at 62% Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs. £4Billion+ a year. Total £28Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £100Billion. £10Billion more pro rata.
Scotland raises £10more in taxes pro rata. Exports £10Billion more pro rata. Yet ends up poorer pro rata. Scotland exports £40Biliion+ The UK exports £300Billion. Scotland can’t borrow. Scotland has to pay for Westminster illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Scotland loses out in EU Grants and investment for renewables etc because of Westminster intransigence. Total £20Billion.
Scotland is in surplus in fuel and energy. 25%. Yet pays more in tariffs and connection fees. Despite being nearer the source. Scotland pays more because it is colder. Price per unit should be 10% lower for parity.
Some evening reading
link to ukconstitutionallaw.org
Mark McDonald has been treated very badly. A witch hunt for sending an inappropriate text message. Just ridiculous. Letting some drunk sleep it off. On the spectrum. Some others should be getting diversity training. The MSM disgusting.
@Ken500
From The National:
“ NICOLA Sturgeon has called on former minister Mark McDonald to quit Holyrood and allow his constituents to elect somebody else.
The former Scottish Government children’s minister was at the centre of an SNP investigation involving a series of complaints made by women.
. . . And last month it emerged a further complaint had been made by another woman about his behaviour and that the SNP had hired a team of private detectives to investigate. It is understood a total of four complaints had been made against him.”
link to thenational.scot
@Nana
I love this bit:
“. . . is likely that the UK Government would by necessity seek to exploit the conditionality of the Sewel Convention and to legislate notwithstanding the absence of consent from the devolved legislatures.”
That’s really one in the eye for Keen, who said in the Lords during review of the Scvotland Act 2016 that putting in the word “normally” made the Sewel Convention legislation meaningless – contrary to the Smith report accepted by all parties including the Tories (including Tomkins).
Well, now he’s reaping his reward, had he not done that, it could have been left to the Sewel Convention (which should have been reinforced to a requirement not to be over-ridden).
Hi Keen, nice one, you created a Constitutional crisis, and probably Independence for Scotland.
@yesindyref2
Yes. Yes he did and yes it probably will.:)
@yesindyref2
Aye as you say one in the eye for Keen.
Here’s Scottish legal’s article on the Academics backing of the continuity bill.
link to scottishlegal.com
@Nana / Macart
Still reading and thinking, and love this bit specially the bit I bolded:
“As regards the continuity provisions, the key differences relate to the status of the general principles of EU law and the Charter of Fundamental Rights (see section 5 of the Bill). First, unlike under the Withdrawal Bill, the Charter is to form part of post-Brexit Scots law in relation to devolved matters.”
Mmm, Scots Law, as mentioned in the Act of Union with England in relation to – citizens.
Which, it seems to me, means a challenge to the UKSC will ultimately be unsuccessful, if that argument is accepted.
Mmm, good to see Tom Mullen is on board, co-founder of SCFF which was set up to be impartial and balanced, though sadly one or two moved over to YES 🙂
I’m going to finish that main article later as I should be down the unit working on an order, but it seems to me the UK Gov is screwed if it gives over those 25 powers (needed to keep in step with the EU laws to make accession to the EU easy and fast) – and screwed if it doesn’t. This is the biter bit of that EU citizen law which doesn’t exist in one way, EU Law, but does in the Acts of Union.
In fact the UK Gov is just plain – screwed. As is the Union which might just – end.
When the MayBot says “let the court of public opinion decide”
It will be a manipulated “public opinion” using things like:
The Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee comment forum asking “what areas of devolution work best, and what areas most concern you.” which I and others posted link to over the past couple of days.
and
link to twitter.com
Be ‘alert readers’ and highlight to all when seen so we can make real public opinion known.
If we lose the second indyref we really will be buggered. We wont get another one for a very long time. I also fear people may tire of the SNP and it will be business as usual at Holyrood with the unionists in charge again (that is if Westminster doesn’t shut the place down.)
Grim I know but I am pessimistic by nature. I want indy with all my heart but I have this terrible gut feeling that we wont get it. Too many I’m Alright Jacks in Scotland. The union works for them so why rock the boat? Makes me despair. 🙁
Brexit and the prospect of WTO rules, unserviceable national dect of £2 Trillion, hyperinflation and a crashed GBP£ @Scottish Steve says at 10:03 pm
That’s what will bring the “I’m Alright Jacks in Scotland” from rocking the UK boat into the Indy Scotland Life Boat.
Keep the faith 🙂
link to bbc.co.uk
Article about the meeting between Sinn Fein and Michel Barmier on Monday.
@Jockanese Wind Talker
Fingers crossed!
The way Mark McDonald has been treated is appalling. The ‘punishment’ for any offence caused is totally out of proportion for any ‘offence’ caused. The way he has been pilloried and portrayed in the Press is just appalling. Why are the ‘accusers’ getting to remain ananymous. Reports not being disclosed. No ‘charges’ have been brought because they would be laughed out of court. Being a keek is no crime. The work he has done for additional needs and additional needs families. Any ‘offence’ caused is totally out of proportion to losing his career etc. Mild misdemeanours
Some other people should get some diversity training and understanding.
When viewed with how some politicians carry on. Have affairs, children with and commit crimes. Along with the criminal Press. Committing crimes getting away with it. Then accusing others. The Home Secretary. An imbecile lunatic. Starve, kill and maim millions of people. Still in office. Commit electoral fraud and get away with it. Embezzle £Billions of public money in office. The Brexit mess etc.
Mark McDonald sent an inoppropriate text message and let a drunk sleep it off. Millions have done that every day. Not lost a career and means to support their family with struggles every day. Pilloried and portrayed in the Press. Totally out of proportion to any ‘offence’ given. On the spectrum. Some people need diversity training and to learn a bit of understanding. He should be re instated immediately. If there is any justice. Given the support he needs. He is the one being bullied. Totally out of proportion. Totally out of touch.
The Tory millionaire who allegedly misused public funds. Over paid council contracts covered up. Asks question in Holyrood without declaring interests, Committed electoral fraud. Then accuses others. You could not make it up. The Tories did not make gains in the NE. Less people voted. 6 thousand less. The unionists changed the electoral system to give them unfair advantage. They have already lost ground being found out for their lies. The SNP has not lost ground. Less voters voted for all political parties. There was a lower turnout. It was raining?
Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Stop the Brexit mess.
The Tories trying to ruin the economy. Again. Last time they left over 3 million unemployed, interest rates at 15%. The north/south divide increased. Unemployment much higher in Scotland. Scotland depopulated. Thatcher deregulated the world banking system. Causing the banking crash. Demutualised the Building Societies owned by the members. Sold off to banks to casino gamble the mortgage books. Sold off utilities, now owned by foreign companies. Etc, etc.
Labour are useless.Tory enablers. A majority in the rest of the UK will not vote for Corbyn. If he cared he would step aside. Never mind some of the nonsensical policies. The legacy. The three day week, The winter of discontent. People could not get buried. The McCrone Report kept hidden. The illegal wars, the financial fraud, the tax evasion. The electoral fraud. The misuse and embezzlement of public money. The Westminster criminals are all the same. Some people never learn. At least people are being better informed in Scotland, Thanks to Wings etc.
Dig deep and give generously. Or a much as can be afforded.
Mark MacDonald’s problems are of his own making entirely & his constituents have been ill-served in all this unfortunate business. He is no longer the SNP’s problem but will be a handy scab to be picked at by the media the longer he stays. It would be cynical to think that the 60 grand a year has a bearing on his decision to say!