Wings Over Scotland

This tweet to me by a Unionist blogger is accruing likes at a rate of knots-

If English & Scots who are very similar cannot bear to live together what hope have we for multicultural harmony.

An insight into the never under any circumstances mind.

I find the last sentence a little out pf place. An SNP voter is not the same as an SNP conference attendee. I suspect there are a goodly number of SNP voters who do so simply because the SNP is competent at governing.

@Pau;la Rose

Effie Deans.

really useful info stu. thanks

sorry if im being stupid
question, are these figures based on recall of ge votes?

eg
labour = 25%
snp=50%

34% of labour voters is about 8%
15% of snp voters is about 7.5%

is this what you mean when you say indy converts are as like to be found in the same numbers among labour and snp supporters?

Another interesting one, cheers 🙂

I don’t really understand SNP supporters either.

An acquaintance said to me -I used to vote SNP until they started this independence nonsense. A little more digging showed her to be more of a closet Tory, and she loves Betty Windsor, who I called a benefits scrounger.

She was very surprised when I told her Salmond wants Betty to remain as Queen of Scots.

There is a lot of ignorance out there, about the basics. Lots, like this woman in her 40s, are lazily reading headlines, and just spouting off.

What hope for multicultural harmony and England? 400,000 now live in their Scotland region and quite a lot have no probs with emigrating to multicultural places, or “fleeing” the UK this load of Toryboys call it

link to telegraph.co.uk

‘If English & Scots who are very similar cannot bear to live together what hope have we for multicultural harmony.’

‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preachers’ seem to have managed to convince the ‘non thinkers’ that Scots & English cannot bear to live together.

The above tweet is complete nonsense because Scots & English can live together and on top of that Scots & English are multi-cultural unless this tweeter believes all Scots & English share the same culture that only people with a certain culture are Scots or English. Not sure what that culture is ‘British Culture’?

I think I would be asking this tweeter to define what he means by Scots & English & what this culture is that we share. Then again I would probably just dismiss him/her as yet another idiot who would be best ignored.

Another way of looking at it is that there are people of all ages, all income groups and all political preferences who are open to persuasion.

It is not so much a matter of which groups to target but it is down to individuals talking to individuals wherever you find them.

It is much easier without the polarizing effect of an official campaign to talk to people.

We must all know some no-voters and probably know their main reasons for voting no. So there is your target. Tailored bits of information being fed to one person at a time.

That means we have 41% already and another 28% who remain to be persuaded. Our target is 60% and we need to make the case for it. We spent most of our efforts the last time, playing table tennis with how the numbers stack up today. What we need to do is ignore all that irrelevance and paint the picture of how Scotland could be if it was Independent.

In all of the areas of life and economics we have the experts who could do this on our side. This could be organised just like the Wee Blue Book and similarly funded. Then a suitable launch date after May 2016 could be set accompanied with a full bloodied yell for YES resounding around Scotland. The preparation needs to start now. We gotta get organised.

Always look on the bright side of life – deedum deedum deedum dum dum. Let’s go for it.

…so for the English to “get along” with the French, Italians, Swedish, Canadians, Chileans ,Swiss, Japanese, Indians , Danish etc etc they have to be ruled from Westminster as one country?

Some logic!!!

Valerie: “I used to vote SNP until they started this independence nonsense”

I never understood the attitude either. While I could just about understand those who wanted independence later than earlier, it remains illogical (Captain Kirk) why anybody would identify with all SNP policies which are, after all, predicated on full autonomy reinstated, and a new Treaty negotiated with England.

Later, I met SNP ex-Lib-Dems and a few disaffected Tories who made plain they wanted better policies fashioned purely for Scotland, but not independence regained.

The 69% who either support independence or are not against it in principle is similar to the 67% who voted in favour of a Scottish Parliament in the 1997 referendum and the percentage of people regularly found in favour of devo max when asked in opinion polls. It seems a lot of people would like to continue with the devolution process before supporting – or not supporting – independence. Perhaps we should focus on ending the devolution process as quickly as possible so the only two options are independence and the status quo.

”So statistically speaking, Yes supporters looking to win over converts from among the ranks of No voters would be best advised to spend their time talking to young men in poorly-paid jobs, and steering clear of rich old ladies.”

@ Thomas Valentine says at 6:03 pm ”Right now racist and sectarian groups are out there trying to win over young men. Surely like human rights laws this is a battle worth fighting.”

Spot on Thomas. That’s a key element of the OO ramping up their number of marches …. trying to attract youngsters who want to play at being ‘soldiers’, lol, without having to join the Army. That’s why Mathieson and GCC Unionists have allowed, in fact encouraged, so many marches to take place: The ‘so-called we love Scotland brigade’ that are more than happy to bring N Irelands poo-poo to our shores.

link to youtube.com

They know what we know and that is that young men from poorer backgrounds are ripe for ‘converting’. Let’s keep an eye on GCC and see if their Orange Order ‘policy’ changes now that Mathieson is gone; or not. What way will the wind blow now?

Interesting.

It would not surprise me if as people get older they are more inclined to vote no. It may not be a generational thing.

Chitternlicht @7.18
If I ilve to be a hundred and twenty Ill never vote no!
Over my cold dead body.

@John King

Good point John, which more or less emphasises, that the sooner we have a Scottish broadcasting corporation [SBC] the sooner we can simply demonstrate that we’re not actually losing anything, and we’ll STILL be able to broadcast their favourite programmes. Although in fairness, we may have to change one or two like the “Great Scottish Bakeoff”… 🙂

Since any poll is merely a “snapshot” of views held at a specific time presumably it is possible that a proportion of respondents in any poll will be affected by what is going on around them in their society at a particular point in time.

Depending on both the economic and political conditions prevailing and the length of time that passes before another referendum takes place it is entirely conceivable that some percentage of current YES and NO voters will change their minds depending upon their individual life experiences.

It would be unwise to presume that some YES voters won’t be adversely affected and it would also be stupid, as appears to be done by many posters, to write off the older generation.

There are people however that will say they never would vote for independence that would.
Difference between saying what you would do and what you actually do.
When the next financial crash comes, and it won’t be long, Indy supporters need to make sure they nail this ‘broad shoulders ‘ bollocks to the wall.
The UK is an economic version of all fur coat and no knickers. We can’t let them spin their way out of it when the inevitable happens

A couple of things:

The fact that there’s a much higher percentage of “definite” Yes voters (41%) than “definite” No voters (30%) is very telling when it comes to the state of the union – it shows that a greater proportion of people who support independence are solid, compared to the anti-independence supporters. It’s just so maddening that most of those open to persuasion decided to go with the 30% hardcore Nos instead of the 41% hardcore Yes (but then, that number might have been different pre-referendum).

It’s also very clear that this “settled will of the Scottish people” is nothing of the sort. While a lot of independence supporters may have erroneously thought all Yes voters were just as dedicated as they were (chance would be a fine thing), most of the No supporters I’ve encountered can’t help but make the same mistake – presuming “No” to mean “absolutely never ever again you horrible nasty people.”

And, as the eternal optimist, I refuse to believe that as many as 30% of Scots could possibly believe they would never vote for independence under any circumstances. Maybe I’m just too young, or naive, or what, but I’d like to believe in my people a bit more than to think a whole 30% are beyond saving.

But then, we’re not doing this for their thanks or their appreciation – we’re doing this for all of us.

@wullie

I’m not sure they could support themselves,explains the panic last year. Is there some kind of gers figures for England alone without oil or the benefits it brings to the city?

It’s worth noting that many unionists voted SNP simply because the Scottish unionist parties are so crap. Unionists may be daft but they are not stupid. 🙂

I would ask the3 per cent,of the snp members who would never vote for independence why are you in the snp you,obviously do not belong there or are you 5th colonists ?

Rev wrote:
“Fascinatingly, 3% of SNP voters say they’d never vote for independence.”

I wonder if these people are also SNP members, or just voters?

Either way Rev, if this poll is an accurate reflection of Scotland as a whole then our task is nowhere near as impossible as some would have us believe.

Add to that how we rose from circa 30% pre referendum up to circa 45% on the big day and have since risen another few percentages to a whisker away from 50% and we can almost smell the coffee.

C’mon Scotland, wakey wakey, the alarm’s going off.

Blair Peterson, they’re SNP voters, not members. They could be quite happy with their personal care, or whatever, that they get under an SNP Scotgov so they vote to maintain that. But dont want to rock the boat with their UK gov pension whatever. To them, it really is better together

We simply need to keep on doing what we’re doing with a bit finer targeting on that 28%.

Westminster will provide the next impetus all by themselves. They simply can’t help being who and what they are.

The main barrier I encounter is the absolute tonnage of cargo the unionists load onto the simple human right question of self determination. The idea being the more complicated they make it the less chance it has of floating.Apparently they succesfully convinced most people that it was a party political issue, hinged on anti englishness , it was a battle and economics would be the battle ground. It was duly reported as an election not a referendum and as politics fighting not a human right being claimed.

Human relationships is the biggest emotional blackmail issue they use. Very strange as I cannot think of another country that says to its neighbor “Unless we can govern over you from our own capital with a permanent majority , we will presume you hate us”. A petulant child could not come up with anything more manipulative and wrong.
But exasperatingly it has worked and people believe it.

The truth is quite different , like my friends and family that has a lot of English and other nationalities both in Scotland and England. They all support self determination.

The assumption are jaw dropping, unionists presume I am a Nationalist, an SNP member, party political, and so on. I am none of these things and simply want to hold my head up among the family of nations knowing we govern ourselves and we have a seat at the table when the nation talk.We decide about the priorities .
One unionist derided Scots for having a “dependency culture” but then confusingly criticized independence as well. Damned if you do damned if you dont. It made me think he wanted Scotland in this infantile state permanently. .

@ Lochside says at 7:36 pm ”The same old refrain…’when the auld yins die oot’…we’ll have the numbers for Indy. I’m afraid I’m not so sure. Consider this: the longer we struggle under the Tory/Unionist cosh..the young and able are continuing to leave…Meanwhile RUK incoming migration is increasing…and as we try to protect our services, unlike RUK, IT may well become even more so.

Everyone who pitches up here from RUK has a vote within a short period and can, like the last REF, help to tip the balance against the indigenous vote.

Most of them are older and better off ‘white flighters’ and predominantly implacable Unionist in outlook. I knew plenty of them that voted SNP in order to keep free personal care, frozen community charge etc. but didn’t vote YES in the REF and never will.”

Spot on Lochside. Auld Scots dying off wont help us one bit not when they’re being replaced by auld rUK folks year after year.

”Everyone who pitches up here from RUK has a vote within a short period and can, like the last REF, help to tip the balance against the indigenous vote.”

Yeah and that period is 3 weeks so just come along for an extended holiday, rent a flat and register at least 3 weeks before the Referendum, and you can vote here. We must be off our heads. We could have won the Referendum last year, and got out of this hell-hole, but blew it.

We’ll have to get the percentage of yes voters up to around 60% SOON or we’ll never win the Referendum between one thing and another: escalating migration, escalating immigration, electoral policy, high unemployment and so on.

@ Dave McEwan Hill says at 8:39 pm ”A warning. It doesn’t do to assume the young who support independence today will continue to do so. People tend to become more conservative as they grow older.”

Especially when they get married, have kids and get a mortgage.

Get the money and the pensions sorted out and EVERYTHING drops into place.

Ken Mair says:

“Apparently they succesfully convinced most people that it was a party political issue”

Yes, I think so. I am convinced some people thought that a Yes vote was a vote for Alex Salmond and the SNP. And, this was done intentionally by the NO side.

The big picture. Scotland’s future. Self determination. A Nation among nations. All lost in a false fog of manufactured party politics.

chitterinlicht: “It may not be a generational thing.”

Older people are more conservative than younger, and women are more risk-averse than men. Not just in politics, but in daily life, financial decisions, and so on. That seems to be a general rule.

But, there ARE generational factors that might be expected to work in YES’s favour. A big one is the inverse correlation between age and number of physical and emotional beatings received from authority figures. Our current crop of geriatrics got every drop of independent thought tawsed and lochgelly’d out of them at school and at home. The bulk of under 30s were seldom skelpit – so they’re more likely to thumb their noses at the powers that be.

Then you’ve got the gradual decline of triumphalist BritNat trumpeting in schools, in the kirk, in the scout hall, in the workplace, etc… which is probably as much to do with the rise of multiculturalism in Britain as anything else, and the empire becoming an embarrassment. Younger people have less fear of being a social pariah if they criticise the status quo.

Then you’ve got the internet and alternative media. Foagies may still believe that the Beeb and the Mail are THE TRUTH, but the young yins will never ever take a single source as definitive, even if they live to 200 and turn tory.

Last there’s life experience under UKOK. Old than a boomer: you got a gradually improving standard of living, a new welfare state, and you could buy a house for spare change. Younger than a boomer: you’ve seen a gradual erosion of your life chances and safety net.

—————————————

o/t Some people on here have been asking what happened to Inform Scotland. It’s took longer than expected to set things up, for a number of reasons. We hope to have a very positive announcement, very soon

“older voters are even less fertile ground, with 37% of the over-55s firmly in the “no way!” camp”

“And among the wealthier ABC1 demographic 36% absolutely don’t want to know”

The British nationalist proud of the empire 70% of the elderly.

The selfish 90% of the middle classes.

Most of the 400,000 settlers from South Britain also fall into these categories.

Most of the 28% not closed to the idea of independence would be from the working class.

If we want a majority next time, completely ignore the first lot and spare no resources in convincing the second lot.

The Radical Independence Campaign would probably have got us the 6% more we needed if it had the resources.

I’m sure someone this time will be looking into a Scottish currency.Take away the “it’s our ball and we’re not sharing” mentality,and you will have a chance.

Cameron said he was staying out of the referendum debate, said it was a matter for the Scottish people.

Well we did know he was running project fear, but here’s the proof

link to archive.is

How much more do we need to know before the result is declared null and void.

@Rock

Waited a while but you have said something I actually agree with, Not this obviously:

“The British nationalist proud of the empire 70% of the elderly.
The selfish 90% of the middle classes.”

Unless you can cite your reference, I don’t want to know. I do agree with the second part of your post.

“Most of the 28% not closed to the idea of independence would be from the working class.

If we want a majority next time, completely ignore the first lot and spare no resources in convincing the second lot.”

We shouldn’t overdo our stereotyping as to who most likely vote Yes or No as you have done, seriously “selfish 90% of the middle classes”.

I believe when the tables for this poll are released you are likely to find out that statement is just, well false.

This shows why those who genuinely feel we need 60% in the polls before calling a second referendum are absolute idiots.

We have a 30% obstacle who say they will NEVER vote for independence under any circumstances. (Although many of these will be old folks whose formative years were in a post war Britain before the SNP made any impact. They will eventually be replaced by a more confident younger generation.)

But in the short term, that leaves us having to convince 6 out of every 7 people left before a campaign is even underway.
We all saw how support drastically increased during the last campaign.

The simple truth is that many people get stuck in their ways. Many are just opposed to change of any kind, and that will always be a built in obstacle. The psychological effect of “status quo bias”.

It will also apply when we are independent. Almost no-one will ever want to give that up. And now under devolution very few people, apart from a few English Tories, want to abolish the Scottish Parliament and go back to direct London rule.

The stubborn 30% makes me think that a gradualist approach has benefits. It changes the landscape so Scottish issues take more importance. Every new power devolved helps to makes Holyrood the focus of political life, not Westminster.

Income tax devolution is in no way sufficient on its own, but it will start a mood of competition, and concentrate minds on where the rest of the money is going.

@Nana

No shocks there Nana and for those motivated by fear or what they would call fiscal pragmatism, it won’t alter a thing. For those already convinced of the need for independence it is merely another example of why we cannot and must not let last September’s result remain unchallenged.

It was a bad result, bought on the back of fear, deceit and the misuse of power. The union as it stands, is built on a lie. For any union, never mind a political union, a relationship built on lies is unsustainable.

Here’s something you won’t find on the BBC. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh interviewed, in a current affairs programme, on her bill to offer automatic hardship payments.

link to rt.com

Afshin Rattansi on Going Underground interviews.

The best thing we, the ordinary people, could do to shorten the time to independence, would be to set up and use an informal parallel digital currency – like a cross between bitcoin and the Brixton Pound. I say ‘the ordinary people’, because it would be suicidal for the SNP to go anywhere near the idea, until it was established, working and growing to Scotland-wide. At that stage, the forces for independence could grab it as the best answer possible to the killer question ‘What’s your Plan B on the currency?’ Maybe even a Plan A!

Colin Church: “It was a very generous franchise in 2014 primarily to avoid Blood and Soil insults. That worked out well!”

Up to now, I always said that a franchise based solely on residence (like we had last year) was the most democratic way of doing things – because it’s the people who LIVE HERE whose interests are affected, regardless of country of origin… and not ex-pats, etc.

But I had a re-think. Most functioning democracies give the vote to all citizens, even those living abroad. This is reasonable: citizens have confirmed responsibilities and rights in relation to the state, and can be expected to have the welfare of the country’s people and territory at heart. You can’t expect the same of immigrants who don’t choose to naturalise, or emigrants who naturalise elsewhere.

So I’d like to propose pre-registration for citizenship as part of the IndyRef2 franchise. Anyone born here can vote, as well as anybody who’s living here for a year by the time IndyRef2 is announced, wherever they come from. Also include anyone born here but living abroad. But, ALL voters must sign the following pledge in order to register.

“I, [insert name], am a member of the Scottish People, either by birth or by abode. By registering to vote to decide Scotland’s future, I acknowledge the sovereign Scottish People’s inalienable right to choose our own form of government, without external interference. I pledge to uphold any future national constitution that is duly ratified by plebiscite of the whole Scottish people, and to accept the responsibilities of a citizen under it. I will protect the constitution of Scotland against all enemies, foreign or domestic. So help me [insert deity of choice]”

At least half the hard naws will balk at that, and hey presto, YES 75%! 🙂

Hail Alba at 9.03

“simply want to hold my head up among the family of nations knowing we govern ourselves and we have a seat at the table when the nations talk.We decide about the priorities”

Which means you are a nationalist. A perfectly respectable position to hold and I am fed up with people reacting to the attempted silly demonisation of the word. A nationalist is a person who recognises the nation he is part of and seeks to protect it, defend it and see it doing well.
Just like virtually every person contributing here

I’d like to know if the old fogey no group is a cohort effect or if it’s an ageing effect..obviously it’s both but the extent of which…following age specific samples over time would reveal some of this but would also capture a general population shift towards yes…if older folk over time are disproportionately moving towards yes compared with younger folk that would be cause for optimism…if it’s also a sizeable part an ageing effect though rev stu then we need to ask why rev stu. As the demographics mean more of us will be in that group so we can’t afford to not prioritise them…my suspicion is it’s more of an ageing effect than we’d like to think although I have no concrete evidence whatsoever for this!

Thepnr,

“seriously “selfish 90% of the middle classes”.”

Keep on hugging Tories to convert them to our cause Thepnr.

When will you realise that “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” didn’t convince anyone who wasn’t convinced already.

It is the selfish 90% of the middle class that will put their own selfishness above our desire for a fair and just society.

It was W O S (boycotted by Yes Scotland) and the RIC that got us to the 45%.

Still Positive at 9.55

Any chance of you sending the information onthe NHS comparison you dug out to dalinlongart@gmail.com?

Perhaps we should look at this as the latest stage in a long process that began in the 1960’s. People who became adults then fixed on the idea as a possibility. Anyone before then was indoctrinated into seeing anything but the status-quo as ridiculous and unrealistic.

What the American called the Baby Boomers form a big lump of voters 55 to 70. Over 80’s are just too rooted in a bye gone age. People who still call Africans darkies and won’t let black doctors touch them. The past is another country filled with uneducated beyond 14 years and highly indoctrinated and often bigoted people.

In all I still think people who grew up in the 1950’s and early 60’s can be won over. Just point out how their world has disappeared and they are preventing us building a new one. They might just listen to their grand children.

Here’s something you won’t find on the BBC. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh interviewed, in a current affairs programme, on her bill to offer automatic hardship payments.

And a the end of the interview, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh telling RT that Scotland has NO maritime patrols. That cant be right surely for christs sake?

No doubt all the NO vote is feeling very secure across the Isles and Orkney and Shetland too.

heedtracker

All Scotland has protecting it’s shores are the submarines based at Faslane. there are NO surface fleet ships in Scotland, NO maritime air cover, we have to ask other countries to do the air patrols for us.

If you want a frigate in a hurry, you have to dial 999 and ask Portsmouth to send up a ship, because you are being invaded.

We are not the kind of people that will ever agree 100% on anything. I think if we manged to get 70% to vote for something that is as close to unanimous as we are likely to achieve.

Over the next few years our goal is to persuade the 20% of voters that voted No but in their hearts lean to an independent Scotland and need reassurance that the sun will rise the next day if we do so.

Likewise I wouldn’t fret over 3% of SNP voters that would never vote for independence. People are nothing if not perverse. The concept of rational man is for economic theories not real life.

If you want a frigate in a hurry, you have to dial 999 and ask Portsmouth to send up a ship, because you are being invaded.

And yet Project Fear 2 is BetterTogether terrorising Scotland all the time, with an endless war on terror the UK.gov help create.

There has to be a little voice inside the minds of NO voters asking WTF is going on around them. How can you terrify Scots electorate with endless, Trident 2 for deadly known unknown threats of the future, but have NO fucking military sea patrols in Scottish waters?

Oh yeah, its all going completely unreported by the UKOK toryboy media, shock. You pays your money, you choose which red and blue media toryboy’s going to lie to you and misinform you

War is good, for toryboy right to reign over us.

Cadogan, watched Yanis Farouakis the other night on the Livestream. He was asked about iScot currency, his take was we already have one, Scot pound. We already print notes here. They’re not accepted down south, usually/often. So we’re almost there.

It’s unfortunate some people jump to conclusions about people e.g. Selfish middle class
Why try to label people in this way? How will that help the debate. People who do not agree with your view point cannot be bullied into voting YES they have to be convinced by the arguement.

If we move away from case building for a fair society to pushing class division you are doing the work of the unionist. It is possible that the posters are unionists and posting for that very reason.

Dave McEwen Hill @ 10.32

Tried to send you an email at the address you gave but it was rejected – came up in red print on my email.

Feel free to ask the Rev for my email address. Rev you have my permission to give Dave McEwen Hill my email address.

Dave McEwan Hill
“And Norway has over 40 armed vessels in its waters (all built in Norway). Norway in fact built the British Navy’s Antarctic vessels.”

Yes, and we also don’t even build our own North Sea supply vessels, all purchased from abroad.

Dave, have you heard anything of the rumour that they might re-open Hunterston for decommissioning oil rigs?

Rancid The Graun, even more rancid than usual. How come they left out the union jack in this UKOK satire of endless horror? Oh but it’s all the US and Russia you see.

link to theguardian.com

Didnt think it possible for Great British hypocrites like The Graun to get any worse but here we are, trapped in farce union with maniacs/very sane.

@ Nana at 9:22pm ……… Thanks for that Nana.

Not one bit surprised about Cameron’s meetings pre-Referendum. Anyone with half a brain knew what he was getting up to as it’s the kind of thing you’d do yourself if you were devious enough, had the right contacts and wanted to scupper the Referendum. There’s a cabal of Unionist journalists out there that have been working together for years now …. when it suits … and that continues / will continue.

There’s also the old boy network of bankers, financiers, CEO’s, energy company, supermarket bosses and so on all ready to do the Unionist bidding at the drop of a hat ……following a wee telephone call ….. and then World leaders with their own hidden (or not so hidden) agendas / axes to grind, EU and NATO.

Government departments such as the DWP, HMRC were instructed to tell their workers to vote no and staff at UK Embassies abroad were ordered to pass on communications to influential people. The Treasury and Civil Service were also involved in thwarting the outcome.

The Celtic League reported Cameron to the UN for breaching purdah listing some of his nefarious activities such as involving world leaders, businesses etc and there has been no action taken against him. I’ll not be holding my breathe on anything being done about this. And it’s probably just the tip of the iceberg as far as what he has been / is getting up to is concerned. And will he be one bit worried about this ‘revelation’? No! The sheer audacity of the man and his Party beggars belief.

@ Scunterbunnet at 10:21pm ………………….

A Referendum relating to Scottish Independence (not any other kind of election) should have been open only to Scots who were born and live here. If it had to include at least 400,000 rUK residents who had relocated to Scotland, three quarters of whom voted no, it should have included the 800,000 Scots who had relocated to rUK ….. mostly to find work that they can’t get here in the main due to Westminster ‘policies’ or getting better paid jobs due to having extremely high educational credentials.

As to anyone who’s been living here for a year being allowed to vote? That would include migrant workers who return to their homeland after a short period of time, foreign and rUK students who leave here when their studies are over and anyone who owns or wishes to purchase a holiday home here? Oh and rUK Miltary who are now based here whilst the Scots have been sent abroad.

I reckon the whole set up has to be totally scrutinised and amended before we have another Referendum. If not we’ll lose it again as the highest percentage of no votes came from rUK relocators and immigrants from abroad ……. and their numbers are rising.

One thing which really annoyed me was that a Polish work colleague who has racist views regarding immigration in his own country is an immigrant in this country but voted no purely for selfish reasons.
He claims money for a child that has never set foot in the country which I never
disagreed with if I’m honest but because the UKOK machine spread lies regarding our EU membership him and many other immigrants voted naw.

You don’t win much from playing nice in politics sometimes and maybe such a constitutional vote of that magnitude should have been for those living here longer than say 3 years.

Sorry to bring down the tone. Tired of not finding a waiting list scandal in Scottish hospitals, Labour now find “hidden waiting lists”. They’re there but we just can’t see them.

“Scottish Labour has said there should be an independent audit of what it claimed are “hidden waiting lists” in Scottish hospitals.

link to bbc.co.uk

How many other “hidden” scandals are lurking out there?

@ Heedtracker 11.47

Tune Hush Hush, quite appropriate, about unionists clearances.

@ Capella

That’s because they refuse to accept targets, which were higher than under Labour, are generally now being met.

Are you surprised?

@yesindyref2, 10.52

“But in my opinion nobody is a waste of time talking to, nor any category.”

Sorry mate but this completely deluded thinking, far too much activists time during indyref was spent trying to convince these dyed-in-the-wool Brits they should vote yes. That 12% “British only” and a significant chunk of the ones who feel “Scottish and British” will never vote Yes. All you will do is waste time that could be spent on persuading someone who is in the “Scottish only” group to vote yes.

From experience the Brits love it when someone spends hours trying to convert them as it means time is not being spent on someone who might change their mind. This isn’t about rational debate on any of the topics, this is about identity politics and cuts deep into the psyche of the individual.

Re Scots & English living in harmony. If English resident in Scotland feel that there is disharmony, well, they have a choice.
I’ll take you back to a news report some years ago when Grampian TV was on the go.
A couple from London sold up & moved to Skye. They had bought a residence that was perhaps beyond the means of most people. They more or less thought they had bought a lairdship. Anyway they proved to be so popular that in order to exist, they had to source their day to day needs from over the bridge. Whether they were paying the toll or not, I don’t know.
Anyhow, they complained to various authorities, higher & higher, but to no avail. They left.
A local crofter was interviewed at the time & it went something like this. “We don’t mind their coming here but when you are in Rome, you do as the Romans do. If they bliddy well don’t like it, they can bliddy well go back to where they bliddy well came from”.
They did & were not missed.
Nor were there any bleeps on the recording.
(Note the spelling)

It’s worth noting that those people that vote SNP but do not currently support independence are still helping the cause indirectly [shhh – don’t tell them!]. Many of them will be in favour of devomax/ffa, which we know ain’t going to happen, but they still dream.

Personal confession – I voted SNP quite a few times before I fully committed to supporting independence, so don’t write anyone off. Never say never.

@Clootie

RE: Division

The establishment thrives off division. Their favourite tactic is to ‘redefine’ and ‘own’ terminology which is considered familiar and safe to the populace. They long ago knew that if you had the means of controlling and disseminating the flow of information, you could determine the ‘collective will’ of the majority for them. After all who doesn’t like the idea of unity, of union, a collective will and effort?

With control of the media comes the perfect mass delivery system for the ‘redefinition’ of the day. You want to bring down a vocal and bothersome opponent? Own the playing field, define the narrative, set the rules yourself and carpet bomb the public your narrative. Civic Nationalists become nats/nazis, Scots become tartan barbarians, good government becomes (and we’ve all heard this one), a socialist utopian fantasy land. Conversely the ‘union’, despite being riddled with geo political conflict, corruption, inept mismanagement, wealth disparity, caste patronage and corporate compromise becomes family and collective effort.

The same goes if you wish to bring down individual demographics within society or break movements, basically own the narrative and terminology to direct the greater number and have them break your opposition for you.

People need to look outside of the media and learn to rely on their own life experience to tell them what’s what. They need to have confidence in themselves and their own judgement to build that ‘independent’ state of mind. Most of all they need to realise the ‘state’ doesn’t define them, peoples actions and their choices define who they are.

You are what you do.

Real unity, real collective will isn’t the state telling you what that means, its you telling the state.

O/T links

link to truth-out.org

link to diasporacardiff.wordpress.com

link to welfareweekly.com

There is a poll at ‘a true independent Scotland’ website on whether the Scotland bill should be rejected. For some reason I’m unable to post the link. You should be able find it on google easily enough.

“We don’t mind their coming here but when you are in Rome, you do as the Romans do. If they bliddy well don’t like it, they can bliddy well go back to where they bliddy well came from”.
They did & were not missed.”

You could sell that T shirt pretty much anywhere in the world.

O/T links

link to blog.rippedoffbritons.com

link to paullewismoney.blogspot.co.uk.

link to truth-out.org

link to thecanary.co

link to middleeasteye.net

OMT but regarding the scots currency.

I was in Schiphol airport the other after a long and tiring flight back from the far east and was fair delighted to see, amongst all the other European currencies accepted by the cafe was indeed the Scots pound as identified by a wee saltire next to £ sign.

Do the Dutch know something we dont?

Well said, Macart.

Call Kaye. Clicks off switch after two callers.
Stop the refugees. Revise the Qu’ran wording. FFS.

Macart @ 7.04.
Very well explained Mac. I’ve been beating the “media” drum for a long while because I believe they are the real enemy, as they are largely controlled by the establishment, and of course they will do their bidding, especially the state broadcaster, the B.B.C.
The incompetence of our political opponents is, in most cases, hidden from the electorate, by a compliant M.S.M who do Westminster’s work for them, while pretending to state facts which are nothing more than a press release from one of the unionist parties.
I was criticised for using the term “brainwashing”, but I really do believe that is what has occurred for over three hundred years, and that is why we have so many amongst us reluctant to take the leap into independence.
However, with the so-called “broad shoulders” of the U.K appearing to sag somewhat with recent events resulting in people losing their jobs when they were promised the exact opposite, I can only hope that people who were taken in by the false promises of the unionists have now seen the light, and come the next referendum will help make us an independent nation.

Ooh, a real fascist on R Scotland right now.
Says all Muslims are a threat…
The man is a fool.
Said he was a Christian, but not willing to love or even understand his imagined enemy.

I had no idea that only three weeks residency was required to vote in the IndyRef last year. I had presumed that it would be at least six months. You live and learn. We have a holiday home in the west highlands, and there are many holiday homes in the area, mostly owned by English people who live there for only a few weeks of the year.

I know some of these people, and nice though they are, they are all Brits, and will not be persuaded to change. It depresses me that these people were allowed to help decide the fate of my country last year. Hopefully, the SG has the power and the will to change the system.

Nana
Is this what you were looking for? Scot £ gets a boost courtesy of Hong Kong money market from August 2014

link to weourselves.com

Ken Mair@8.26

Excellent comment Ken.

Touched on a lot of relevent points.

Well written and thought provoking.

Nice one.

@Lollsmum

Thank you Lollysmum.

Posters on this site are really amazing, & that link is certainly leading to what I was looking for.
The article I read gave details on why the scot£ was strong and what it meant for an independent Scotland.

I will look again later.
Meanwhile I know there are folks on here who will do the same.

test

O/T

Labour’s big day out…tax credit leafletting

link to youtube.com

Nana
Is this the one you were looking for from April 2013?

link to scmp.com

Nana
I’ve just tried linking that poll page again but it’s still not appearing.That’s 3 times I’ve tried it this morning.

Do you think someone out there doesn’t want anyone to know of it’s existence? 😉

I find it difficult to attach any great significance to numbers and percentages. I’ve been lied to much to often to listen.

A much more important issue for me personally is understanding the extent to which the largely unchallenged Unionist propaganda is influencing the issue.

I fail to grasp how the momentum for a YES vote couldn’t overturn a No majority which couldn’t even field a second 11 to turn up at their events. Better Together was one embarrassing fart after another, and at no time from start to finish could ANY unionist spokesperson articulate any cohesive argument for why the Union should exist.

I don’t understand how only one side can turn up for battle and yet walk away in defeat.

The only answer I can speculate on, and it is speculation because I do not understand their thinking, is a residual fondness for Great Britain in our silent majority which escaped my attention growing up in Scotland, or something else, the unholy art of black propaganda.

In truth, I think the only facet of Unionism which was difficult to contest was their grip over broadcast media, and their capacity to manipulate, and undermine, the real agenda. That is where we lost, and where our YES advocates were consistently outplayed, and badly outplayed.

This issue is the most central to the failure of the YES campaign, and the whole monstrous behemoth of Unionist broadcasting and media remains intact and emboldened by its proven success. It is stronger even now than it was.

We need leadership, and effective leadership to outmanoeuvre this grotesque affront to our democracy and let the next referendum campaign be a debate about the mechanisms of sovereign power, not the banal absurdity and ephemeral irrelevance of whether we use the pound coin as currency.

cearc says: 15 November, 2015 at 6:35 pm:

“It is not so much a matter of which groups to target but it is down to individuals talking to individuals wherever you find them.”

I’ve been at this game for a very long time and I’m old, tired and running out of steam now. Facts, though, are still facts and one fact is that there are people out there with minds so tightly closed there is no way to open their minds, even just enough to let a little light in.

They do not listen and thus cannot be reached. If they do not know, and understand, the policies of their chosen party to vote for, what hope is there they will know and understand those of another?