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Wings Over Scotland


The uninvited

Posted on March 03, 2018 by
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Malky

And they wonder why we’d want to ‘help’. Time to get out of this arrangement before we’re also hamstrung along with this feckless lot.

Les Wilson

Brilliant Chris, just brilliant.

cearc

Aren’t we the lucky ones? Two new characters. Beautifully observed, Chris.

Ken500

Maybe the Tories should have considered the ‘hard facts’ before having an EU Referendum. They could not make a bigger mess. Unbelievable. Labour are useless. Why on earth do people vote for them in Scotland. That is the mystery.

Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Imagine the state of Scotland without them. Unthinkable.

Terry

These cartoons are brilliant. “If a picture paints a 1000 words”

Come the next indyref and/or anytime soon it would be great to have a crowdfund to get some of these up on billboards round Scotland. They convey a message in two seconds, are engaging, would get folk talking that normally don’t engage in politics/Indy and last but not least are fabulous.

Meantime in la la land (LBC Radio) just now is a phone in that if most No voters heard would shift to Yes – it’s full of arrogant types saying England shall not be bullied!!! It’s all about England – so why not make it thus? End of UK AND FULL INDEPENDENCE FOR ENGLAND.

Ann

Brilliant.

See that nasty Celtic fringe!!!!

Robert Louis

Should we ‘cut the rope’, or just leave these British Nationalist clowns dangling when we walk away. Hoist by their own petard stupidity and arrogance. The laughing stock of Europe.

Scotland needs independence ASAP.

OR, we could look at it another way – if the United Kingdom truly were a union of equal partners, which is what it claims to be…

It is time to vote England OUT of the United Kingdom. In their arrogance they have wilfully sought to undermine our ‘precious union of nations’, have acted with disregard to ALL our partners, and sought to undermine and dominate the union. As such, they should be cast out. They are no longer a fit and willing participant in this union of countries and territories, called the United Kingdom.

🙂

gerry parker

I’d love to help, I’ve got a piece of Duct tape for over his mouth.

They just get better and better Chris, well done.

MajorBloodnok

Ha!

Liking the dragon with the “am I bovvered?” expression.

Clootie

Chris

Great work as always…however you will upset the “Bruttish Bigots” of NI with your one character representing Ireland 🙂
The DUP and Rees-Mogg are both focused on a return to the 18th/19th century the Empire.

Marie Clark

Oh that’s a keeper Chris. Nice to see oor wee Hamish with a couple of mates.

Terry @ 7.54 and Robert Louis 8.03
I made the suggestion the other day over on the wee ginger dug, that the answer to the tories problems was to hold an independence referendum for Engerland, then they could go their own sweet way, and gie the rest of us peace,to live as we want to, and not as the tories think we should. I was a bit tongue in cheek, but mibbies it’s the best answer.

Robert Louis

The real irony is, that if I lived in England, and a general election were called tomorrow, I do not know who I could vote for. Both Labour and the Tories have become consumed with this brexit nonsense. Vote tory, get brexit. Vote Labour, get brexit. Red Tory/Blue Tory.

They are both just as bad. That is why Scotland needs out of this unwanted and undemocratic union with England.

If you live in Scotland, Ireland or Wales, and are not furious about this brexit sh**e, then you haven’t been paying attention.

Robert Louis

Marie Clark, at 0817am,

Your suggestion of it being England who should leave the union is a good one. It is England causing all this grief, and it is England who seems obsessed with leaving the EU. My opinion, is they should be made to leave both the United Kingdom union AND the European union, and gie us all peace.

I think Wales, Scotland and Ireland could happily co-exist. England is the problem. Always has been.

louis.b.argyll

‘One size fits all’

..Used to be written on the label of asylum straight-jackets..

Also available as a sex toy, for (esp Tory) fetishists on Amazon.

They enjoy their own suffering.

starlaw

Brilliant cartoon, got it all in one. Brexit is all about England Every one else is just the pet poodle to be towed where ever England fancies.
Every interview of ordinary people shows a wish to return to a world that has gone.

Rick H Johnston

Every picture tells a story right enough!
Well done Chris, though ye forgot the poodle David Mundell.
He’ll be gutted!!

ronnie anderson

Brilliant Toon Chris but hingin by the ankles naw naw , ah wid hiv hung Mr England by the haw maws but who am ah certainly no ah felt tip Artist lol .

Keep up the good work .

X_Sticks

Superb as always Chris. That’s it in a nutshell. The only thing I might have added would be the (potential) parachute in Hamish’s pocket. I hope he’s thinking of using it soon before it’s too late.

alexicon

Fantastic cartoon Chris. Just a small suggestion though.
You should have had a knuckle dragger in his sash regalia standing next to John Bull pointing a gun to his head, metaphorically speaking of course.
That would have made it a clean sweep.
Regards England’s independence from the uk.
There was an online petition doing the rounds lately calling for exactly that. The last time I seen it, it was sitting at just over 800 signatures, probably mostly Scots.
The English just don’t want it because they know, but will never admit, that they would loose so much.

Famous15

O/T On GMS discussion on Hebrides Energy and Our Power and the battle to end fuel poverty.Swiching to them! Any info as I fancy switching to Our Power based in Niddrie?

Ottomanboi

Brexit advocates are ambitious for making England great again.
Scottish independence, however, should be about rectifying the great damage caused to our integrity as a people and a nation by our earlier experiences of ambition of the type.
Loud and clear: The Union Was an Exceedingly Bad Thing!

Fred

Theresa is certainly making an eloquent case for Scottish independence, will she be the last British Prime Minister, will she survive until the Scottish referendum? mebbes we should think about a statue once this all blows over! Next to Donald Dewar perhaps?

Clydebuilt

Independence Warrior helps advertise The British Labour Party in Scotland’s new Web Shite.

link to indyref2.scot

One_Scot

Lol, I can see folk laughing at these cartoons hundreds of years down the line.

Highland Wifie

Just when you think Chris can’t get any better he produces this. Fantastic Chris.

We’ve been trying to help poor old England avoid all this embarrassment since June 2016 but no luck. Not sure there’s much any of us can do now other than save ourselves.

galamcennalath

In a straight jacket … very appropriate … if only!

Captures the point perfectly. John Bull’s Tories won’t cooperate with the rest of the these Isles but want their cooperation back!

Describing it as hypocrisy doesn’t even come close.

dakk

Nice one Chris.

But whilst still being part of UK the three ‘free’ onlookers are still in a far more constrained and helpless position than Sir John Bullshitter.

Sad but true.

Cactus

Now that John Bull has put himself in a straight jacket…

It’s time to bring on ‘Bor Gullet’.

Us lot are helping…

Each other.

galamcennalath

OTish. Eight reasons why John Bull seems Hell bent on suicide ….

link to archive.is

… sounds about right!

Grouse Beater

I like the Welsh dragon with the pot belly, Chris. Very nice. By the way, this is the one week you should have been taking a break in a hot climate!

Your essential weekend reading:

Scotland the basket case: link to wp.me
Of Jocks, Nats, and Nazis: link to wp.me

Socrates MacSporran

galamcennalath @ 9.35am

Thanks for archiving that, Ian Jack has produced some very good pieces lately, this was another one.

Kangaroo

Looks like the Leprechaun is cheesed off and who can blame him given the totally disingenuous negotiating from UK and impossibility of pleasing all of the parties in Ireland.

Appears to be only a few solutions
1. CU and SM for NI as suggested by EU/UK Phase1 deal,
2. NI joining Eire after a border poll,
3. NI becoming independent and doing its own thing, (don’t think this is possible due to GFA, but throw it into ring anyway),
4. CU and SM for whole UK

Whilst NI citizens already get the option of Irish citizenship perhaps in the event option 2 or 3 is chosen they could be given the option of UK citizenship as well as Irish. This may help placate the unionists.

_________________
Given the intransigence of the negotiations what will happen in the event of a No Deal which is looking increasingly likely? Any thoughts?

Smallaxe

They shouldn’t need any help they’ve managed to help themselves to our resources quite easily for centuries,
Excellent, Chris. Thank you.

JLT

Theresa is getting desperate. You can now see it within the floral language. If one goes by the headline in this morning’s Telegraph where it states that ‘meet us halfway on Brexit May urges EU’ then if this is the language being used by Theresa, then it has gone beyond panic in Westminster and Whitehall. It has now become the language of a deep-driven fear of what is now looking like financial meltdown.

As the last year has progressed and the failure of talks, I’ve had this underlying feeling that the EU, rather than just telling the UK to ‘eff off’, that they now intend to maximise the pain onto these islands. I can’t help wondering if the EU’s intentions is to actually dismantle Britain politically. Over the last century, Britain saw to the fragmentation of Germany twice, first the splitting of Prussia by seceding key territorial lands to Poland (West Prussia ie Silesia and Galicia) after WW1 and then again after WW2 with not just the loss of Eastern
Prussia, but with the ending of that nation-state completely. The imposition of Federalism on to Germany removed the German Juncker class (landed nobility) and forced the nation to abandon pretensions of having a royal family, an upper establishment and by removing literally the class system. Everyone was to become equal in Germany. Britain was the main culprit behind this political and ideological setup for modern Germany …and yet, it never imposed such ideas of federalisation and equality in Britain. You have to ask why?

Now I wonder …is this an underlying objective of the EU? Do they wish to change Britain; a nation that endorses an anti-EU and European agenda, and therefore to do so, could so by shattering the UK economically as well as politically. Could the issue over Northern Ireland cause a political fallout in Britain where the Celtic nations decide to take matters into their own hands by seeking secession from the UK State. If only England remains, its influence is markedly diminished. How long before a humble England seeks to rejoin the EU …5 years …10 …a generation?

I think there is more going on here than just economic arguments. I think there is politics within politics going on. It’s bad enough having one anti-EU nation on the Eastern border of the EU (Russia), but to have an annoying mouthy one on the Western side is possibly too much. Forty years of carping and griping has led to the EU in deciding that this nation must be treated severely and harshly. So by refusing to meet any of the UK’s demands, it instead muddy’s the waters of Britain itself. What an opportunity for the EU in removing that perpetual mouthy thorn from its side once and for all…

Bill not Ben

Brexit is just savoir-faire.

Luigi

Aye, the celtic tribes slaves are getting restless again, cheps.

Bit of a problem this time, cheps. We don’t usually have to deal with all three at the same time though……Oh Dear. Why can’t they just shut up and crawl back into their boxes?

galamcennalath

Kangaroo says:

1. CU and SM for NI as suggested by EU/UK Phase1 deal,

Says a lot that the option which closest fits what the people of NI chose democratically in EURef, ie stay in the EU, is the option the Tories and DUP hate!

what will happen in the event of a No Deal

Has to be a border poll followed by reunification. Like Scotland and IndyRef2, it seems difficult to imagine either country opting to stay in a cliff-jump-UK.

Bill not ben

Two of the best i can remember was number i, lots of snow,so they had to bring in the helicopters to drop food for the farms, so we had the helicopter guy shouting down to Paul and Linda at their farm, would you like any grass, and Paul shouts back, yes and two packets of cigarette papers please.

2) A local dance for the employees of the social security office, the band where all wearing brown paper bags over their heads with slits for their eyes………… lol

remo

Robert Louis @ 8.21
I have been living in England for the last 3 years. I didn’t move from Scotland for fun but because I had to. You are right about not knowing who to vote for. I wanted to write SNP on every ballot paper I have been faced with. I live in an ordinary wee town. The folk are also ordinary but they vote Tory. Why? I find myself with a Tory MP and a whey-faced youth as my (Tory) councillor. I do my best to give these two grief at every opportunity. Scottish (or Welsh) events never mentioned in the news headlines here. Obviously not relevant. I don’t pay the BBC propaganda tax or for newspapers so I only read headlines. The people seem delusional and are walking towards disaster with their eyes wide shut. I see the butcher’s apron often. Why not England’s own flag? It feels to me as though the folk want to live in wee places with no amenities, preferably in 1945. The whole place feels to me backward-looking and inward-looking. I am finding it more foreign than any other country I have ever visited. I am coming home as soon as possible, hopefully to vote YES. I voted YES in 2014. I hope I will qualify to vote YES in the next indyref. PS I am not tarring the whole English nation with this brush just the ones who have given me this impression.

Elmac

A bit off topic but an indication that trade disputes are not the sole prerogative of the EU/UK. Some light relief in a dark winter.

link to news.com.au

Macart

Neatly done Chris. 🙂

‘Bout sums it up really.

PictAtRandom


Socrates MacSporran says:
3 March, 2018 at 9:44 am

galamcennalath @ 9.35am

Thanks for archiving that, Ian Jack has produced some very good pieces lately, this was another one.

I think that one factor Ian Jack missed is a “dog that didn’t bark” — the failure to substitute for the loss of the British Empire. The UK (basically England) should have been moving towards a green, greater self-sufficiency approach around the time of the Winds Of Change speech in 1960. Instead there was Beeching, motorway building, the stoking of the population ponzi, “the white heat of technology” and… looking to the Common Market / European Community as some sort of saviour.
it’s taken a while but the chickens are coming home to roost — and if the City of London henhouse collapses then it’ll be seriously grim.

Valerie

That is very funny, Chris. Apt as always.

Regarding who English folk will vote for if they are pro EU.

Fairly substantial, and influential folk on Twitter, now saying as no one represents their views, they must send a message in May, at local elections.

So they are saying must vote Plaid, Lib Dems, Green.

It’s pretty clear now to everyone, Corbyn is a Brexiteer. His attack now is to say Labour would handle it to benefit of country, and May is just messing it up.

He has blatantly lied about the EU. He really is a sorry excuse.

call me dave

Excellent Chris.

That’s the state of things right enough. What’s he like eh?

Time for the others to have a quiet chat about things and make preparations for another future I hope.

PS: Many will know the result but James has added a bit of detail.

link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk

Rabby

Would it not be better for England to exit on their own and leave Scotland – N. Ireland & Wales in Europe? The English want their monarch – £ – blue passports, let them have it all and let’s see how many other countries have time for them.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

“Would it not be better for England to exit on their own and leave Scotland – N. Ireland & Wales in Europe?”

Wales voted to leave.

Bob Mack

As usual Chris, brilliant.

Whilst I am here has anyone seen Common Space? They have given a whole section to Labour (Red Robin.) The Unionists bought our country from under our noses, now they appear to be slowly “buying” our few media outlets. Loki, Haggerty, all bought and paid for.

Money ,fame, and mixing with those who can progress your career or personal ambitions appears to be a heady brew that few can resist. Sad.

jfngw

@Valerie

Very true regarding Corbyn, he is trying to deceive. His position is almost identical to May’s, he wants to have a special UK Customs Union agreement not be in the current Customs Union. This is exactly the same as May, the only difference is she doesn’t want to call it a Customs Union but a special relationship or something (it’s May and clarity is never her strong point).

Robert Peffers

@JLT says: 3 March, 2018 at 9:56 am:

“As the last year has progressed and the failure of talks, I’ve had this underlying feeling that the EU, rather than just telling the UK to ‘eff off’, that they now intend to maximise the pain onto these islands.”

Nah! JLT, you are over complicating a fairly simple and straightforward matter.

The European Union began with a simple purpose and added to that basic purpose but has never wavered in the basic purpose that began it.

The basic reason behind the birth of the European Union was to prevent the previous European history of almost constant wars ending with the two World Wars that resulted in the ongoing threats of Nuclear conflict that could end a World inhabited by the human race.

Europe then sat between the USSR nuclear threat and the USA nuclear threat that seemed, and still seems, unaware of the threat they are to the entire World.

In ending the constant European conflicts they have largely succeeded and with the fall of the Berlin Wall they began to dismantle the USSR threat but Russia still remains in a much weakened military threat.

The next stage of the EU development was to create the biggest free trade market in the World and thus to lessen the growing threat from conflicts between the Eastern bloc and the USA which, due to the United Kingdom’s, “Special Relationship”, with the USA saw the Westminster Establishment inclined more and more towards the USA and less inclined towards the European Union.

Which brings us up to date with Westminster attempting to divorce itself, and thus also dragging Scotland, Wales and part of Ireland along with them, towards closer links the WTO and the USA.

From the outset the United Kingdom was a outlier among the European nations and never forget De Gaul’s firm opposition towards the United Kingdom’s membership of a place in Europe.

Westminster’s next move was to turn its back on the Commonwealth Countries that had steadfastly stood by them throughout two World wars and actually beg to join the European Union. Even then they thought themselves as exceptions to the rule and demanded special exemptions from certain EU rules.

On the EU side of things they have fallen over themselves to accommodate the UK who have remained since joining a thorn it the side of the EU. In this the EU have never changed their views that the red line of the four freedoms must by met by all EU member states and any state who cannot/will not meet those conditions would, at best, only get some of the membership benefits and would be denied a say in EU decisions while paying EU dues. In this they are being consistent by applying the same conditions to the BRUKEXITeers.

They are no more trying to punish Westminster than they are such as Norway, who pay EU dues but have no EU voice. It has been EU policy and it hasn’t changed – no one can cherry pick from the EU Freedoms. If they do not accept them all they cannot be, or remain, as EU Member States.

Ian Brotherhood

Have just finished reading ‘The Way Forward’ by Shafi/Jamieson in the BellaC mag in The National.

Fuckin ragin’, away for a walk…

🙁 🙁 🙁

Dan Huil

One of your best ever, Chris. British nationalists treat Scotland, the north of Ireland, and Wales like crap yet demand we support them in their xenophobic Britnat ambitions.

Aye, right.

Never mind Colonel Blimp and her landmine photo-op, we’ve got to continue laying our own political landmines under the rotten stinking foundations of this so-called precious united kingdom.

manandboy

Brilliant, Chris. Love it.

wull

Pro-EU Remain voters in England have no one to vote for. So … why don’t the SNP put up some candidates in England? At least in certain target areas to begin with, for instance constituencies that include places like Berwick … or Corby Town … or wherever …

Even in some London constituencies, which were very pro-Remain, pro-EU … And as soon as possible, once it gets better know, across the board, throughout England (but leaving Wales to its ally, Plaid etc.). Moreover, on all fronts, local elections as well as Westminster ones.

I don’t see any disadvantages. And of advantages there could be many.

I do see it as an important way of getting it known across the whole of the UK what kind of Party and political force the SNP really is. Including just how reasonable the SNP are. Of course there would be plenty of attacks and lampooning from the gutter press, but that wouldn’t matter. With good candidate selection, the SNP would be able to give the lie to that propaganda in the long run.

Why should the SNP leadership leave the rabbid English Press to misrepresent and mis-portray them at every turn? What would prevent reasonable, articulate pro-Remain, pro-EU voters from turning to them? Not just as a protest vote against the current madness, but as the voice of reason. And indeed of democracy.

It’s not only English Remainers who need a Party to vote for. What about all the European nationals who are still living and working in England, and hoping something will change?

I don’t think it would take long to organise this, and properly organised, it could make a bigger impact than we might at first imagine. And it would puncture one of the (admittedly false) arguments that the BBC used to plaster our tv screens with Nigel Farage, while keeping the SNP off them. They said UKIP was a UK Party was a UK-wide Party because it was standing in so many seats, while the SNP was only a local thing, and therefore did not deserve the same kind of representation on televised debates etc.

Well, if the SNP has UK-wide candidates, that’s an end to that piece`of BBC chicanery. And if anyone down south pretends the SNP is too ‘Scottish’, Scotland is still part of the UK isn’t it. Besides which, in England SNP could be thought of with commas between the letters, re-tweaked to mean … ‘Scottish, National and Pro-european’.

The SNP is obviously pro-Scottish, but even in UK terms it has been standing up for the true National interest in a way that none of the other main Parties in Westminster have been. That should be made known and clearly publicised throughout the UK.

And the SNP is and always has been pro-European. So the suggested ‘tweak’ of the meaning of SNP will do fine.

The SNP undoubtedly has a media problem. Not just in terms of the constant hostility we know about, but even more in regard to simply being ignored. The BBC being a main culprit in that regard.

I can see why some will think otherwise, but I think going UK-wide would in the end give the SNP a lot of the publicity it sorely needs. The anti-SNP stuff would continue, and no doubt increase, but as more people across the UK got to know the reality of what the SNP is like, and what it’s about – its reasonableness and principled politics – the hysterical anti-SNP Press lobby would sooner or later puncture its own balloon.

There might even be real support in papers like the Guardian, once the SNP can’t just be shunted off into its tiny (fundamentally irrelevant?) ‘Scotland’ section …

handclapping

The dragons a keeper. Send a copy to Plaid

Ian McCubbin

So funny and reply from the 3: Oh yes we are!

Bill not Ben

The common market came in to being to make trading with each other a very simple process, and to have a club where every member in that club would trade with each other without the need to trade with outsiders unless you wanted to trade with outsiders as well as with the common market, after all, we do like our fruit which mostly comes from places that can grow the likes of bananas, because they have the sunshine.
Now having said that, the market was not set up to stop wars, trading with each other made sure we remained friends, the UK and France still have nuclear weapons, that means that the european political union still has nuclear weapons on its soil, so a nuclear war is still a possibility, and the european union has no control if it ever does happen.
One of the last things obama did was sent troops into Poland for military war games in case Poland was attacked by Russia, the european union did not stop this madness, and russia was not to happy about this show of power on its border, so if anyone thinks that being part of this union will stop wars, then all i can say is, wake up and face reality.

Les Wilson

wull says:

I remember Alex Salmond after a speech down south, he publicly said “we could do well down here!”

It amused me and probably others at the time. However I have often thought about such a move, and how it may serve our purpose.
If we turned into a full blown entity, I am sure it would bring in decent numbers, as yes there would be media coverage, but likely the totally rabid kind, racism would certainly be aimed
at us.

However, I do think it would work better at least initially in Northern England, these people are suffering from Tory ideology
too, but have little choice of ways out.

That would still bring the usual Media response, but not sure these people would be taken in much by them, as they are sick of the same things that we are.
But it would not half shake England up, when they compare our policies with the Tory agenda or Corbyn’s either.

Depending how that went in voting terms, we could then think bigger or not. Problem is we want/need Indy now.

Bob Mack

@Bill not Ben,

Your an idiot. Poland asked NATO for assistance following a Russian build up near it’s borders.I thought you read stuff?

Chick McGregor

Great new characters Chris.

Clootie
“Great work as always…however you will upset the “Bruttish Bigots” of NI with your one character representing Ireland”

You have a point, might I make the anthropomorphic suggestion of a jaundiced penguin with a bowler hat. 🙂

Robert Peffers

@wull says: 3 March, 2018 at 11:28 am:

“Pro-EU Remain voters in England have no one to vote for. So … why don’t the SNP put up some candidates in England?”

Aw! Cummon! The party that wants to be independent from England standing candidates in the country/kingdom that it wants to leave? It is two faced and would only lose them voters in Scotland.

Robert Peffers

@Bill not Ben says: 3 March, 2018 at 11:46 am:

“so if anyone thinks that being part of this union will stop wars, then all i can say is, wake up and face reality.”

What utter pish! Why do you imagine the Berlin Wall came down?

Take your neocom bullshit and shove it.

jfngw

@Wull

Although it seems like an interesting idea I’m not sure how this could work. The SNP then becomes a UK party and would need to represent the interests of any areas outside Scotland were it is elected. If independence was proven to harm these areas how could you represent them except by stopping any independence request. In my opinion if you become a UK party then you have to give up the idea of an independent Scotland.

wull

In my previous post, besides a few obvious typing errors, let me correct what I meant by using commas and re-tweaking what SNP means. That should have read, quite simply, as pointing out that SNP can stand for ‘Scottish, National, Pro-european’.

As a kind of slogan … (I don’t know Gaelic, but a friend of mine who claims to do so told me that ‘slogan’ is one of those relatively few Gaelic words that made its way into English, and that its original meaning is ‘battle-cry’ … Maybe someone on this site more knowledgeable than me could confirm whether that is correct …)

Anyway, battle-cry or not, that slogan – Scottish, National, Pro-European – would set out the Party’s main agenda in a clear way for English voters. Even the ‘Scottish’ part of it, along with the other two parts, would help English voters to see that the SNP is not, as such, an anti-English Party. It would be a good thing, even for the SNP in Scotland, for it to be seen as a Party which which ordinary, decent English men and women can identify with and vote for. They too can be pro-Scottish, pro-National and pro-European.

In actual fact, even in its promotion of Scottish independence, the SNP has always believed that this would in the long run be good, even very good, for England too. So long as I have known it, that has generally always been the case.

And it happens to be true anyway. In the light of more recent events, Yes winning the 2014 referendum, and Scotland becoming independent, would have been hugely in England’s best interests. There would have been no Brexit if that had happened, and England would not be in the mess in which it now finds itself.

As so aptly and accurately portrayed in today’s cartoon from Chris.

I am not suggesting that the SNP changes its name in England. It has to be clear that it’s still the same Party as the one operating in Scotland. I am simply suggesting that the letters SNP, re-tweaked in the manner indicated, would become themselves the best way of promoting the Party among English voters. That would be the slogan: ‘Scottish, National, Pro-European’.

It could be a game-changer, even a winner.

(Just to be clear, let me add that I am not a member of the SNP. Simply a long-standing SNP voter. Maybe SNP members could pick up this idea, and run with it within the Party … There is a huge void to be filled in England, and the SNP could be just the Party, and political force, that is needed down there, at this precise moment in time …

Macart

Mmmm… On May’s ‘leave no one behind’ point.

Firstly, it Seems to me that you’d have to presume that everyone wants to go where you are leading. Clearly, they don’t. Secondly, you’d also have to presume that as a group, the nations involved would wish to travel together. Again, clearly, they do not. Finally, you’d have to presume that your actions in leading those in your care to this point were above reproach, that you had a moral right/high ground from which to make such a statement. No. Not even that. And no amount of using the media to rewrite your history for you will hide that fact.

Mr Cameron had no right to endanger existing constitutional agreements with the home nations. He had every duty to inform the public as to the consequences of his decision to proceed with an EU referendum against clear warnings of the risk of constitutional crisis. He also had a duty to prepare for the contingency of a Brexit vote. He chose to do… none of the above.

Ms May latterly had a duty to inform the populations of the UK of the full economic, constitutional and societal consequences of the Brexit vote. Whilst it was still advisory and prior to the triggering of A50 she had the opportunity to inform the public of UKgov’s lack of preparedness for an exit vote. Ask for patience as the relevant impact assessments were performed and fully inform the public as progress was made. She chose to ‘play her cards close to her chest’, ask for trust, trigger a snap election, seek ministerial legislative powers without parliamentary oversight and all in the name of ‘strong and stable’ government.

UKgov’s humiliation on the international stage during phase 1 talks have become the stuff of a diplomats worst nightmare. Phase 2 as of yesterday looks no better and the populations of the home nations are no wiser as to their present circumstances, never mind their futures.

So, given that folk don’t know what the destination is and they have very little reason to trust the one doing the leading currently (She did say she was the PM of the whole UK, yes?). I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if more and more folk didn’t mind being left behind at all.

Hamish100

Great cartoon.

I wonder if the Rev could if not himself get some guest writers to pursue the next stage for independence. As time moves on I am more than convinced that brexit (soft, hard) will impose greater ethnic brutishness being forced upon the peoples of Scotland. A David Dimbleby, Boris Johnston, Rees-Mogg view of brutishness which lets not kid ourselves is of a hard imperialistic and colonialist England. Reading Bella Caledonia with the National today the gentle suggestion that cosy Corbyn labour are somehow the good guys is a fallacy. Corbyn may believe in Irish self determination but he views Scotland as a colony. Ultimately he will line up with Mundell and Davidson to ensure north Britain succeeds over this ancient nation of Scotland

Get the snow out of the way and then we should start to ratchet up our possible final fight for this country’s freedom. It is as serious as that.

wull

Les Wilson says:
3 March, 2018 at 11:55 am

Thanks, Les. I fully agree with you about the North of England, especially in terms of English Northerners having far more of a more natural affinity with Scots, and with Scottish aspirations. Indeed, the SNP could do well there.

The only drawback might be that the North of England tended to vote Leave in the EU referendum, even rather strongly. That was why I didn’t mention that part of England in my post. On reflection, however, some of these Leave voters might have changed theior minds by now, when they see what Brexit is turning out to be in reality. And there are also vast numbers of Northerners who did vote Remain, anyway. Even as a minority, that is an awful lot of votes going a-begging.

Ian Foulds

alexicon says:
3 March, 2018 at 9:03 am

Sorry to hear that they only have about 800 signatures.

I am sure I signed it over a year ago and hoped it would have at least 2 million (Scottish Independence supporters) by now.

Scot Finlayson

@Bob Mack

Infiltrate,become a decision maker,hire your own kind,then set the agenda,

has been the way of most establishments for thousands of years,

from Persians,Romans,to Political parties to Civil rights groups in America to Trade Unions,and of course Media,

the problem the establishment have with Wings is Stu has no command structure to infiltrate.

Dave Mc Ewan Hill

Just as a matter of interest I will not in future be buying the Saturday National that includes the Bella Caledonia magazine.

Sarah

@Terry 07.54: “a picture better than 1000 words”.

Absolutely right. I have been saying for years, including to SNP HQ [tho’ not a member, just a voter and bung a few quid now and again], that we need to OWN a billboard company – remember the billboards campaign last year that had to change the wording to satisfy the billboard company?

I went to the Inverness Yes conference last Saturday and Paul K and Lesley R etc stressed it must be Yes DIY because none of the existing national bodies are going to, or are fit/suitable, to rouse non-party and cross-party support in the same way. [SIC are doing research but none of the other purposes it was set up for.]

In 2014 it was the grassroots that nearly won it but we lacked the tools to counteract the media onslaught. I’m convinced that a mixture of Chris cartoons and Ayemail and Indyboy brief punchy messages would pierce the consciousness of everyone who sees them, despite the P&J/Record/BBC etc etc.

So is there a group of Wingers who will get together and do this? [Here’s where I confess I can’t be an organiser as am in the throes of trying to buy a building for the community from Church of Scotland – see Friends of Clachan Lochbroom on Facebook. Oh and anyone with a huge chunk of money, please get in touch!!]

Les Wilson

wull says:

As I pointed in my previous answer in this regard, we need Independence now. Should that happen, and I do believe it will.

Then, we could speak to others in northern England and find out if they had any interest in joining Scotland.
Places among some you spoke of who may look to the North with some envy at our more social society.

Carlisle, Berwick on Tweed, Even Newcastle and others could be perhaps interested in doing so, if that was the case they hold their own referendum to establish they would want to do that.

That is much less risky as it would not effect Scotland if they voted no, but would enhance us by population if they said Yes.
After that, who knows how far south it would creep.

Bobp

That rope should be around his neck.

Robert Peffers

@jfngw says: 3 March, 2018 at 12:08 pm:

“Although it seems like an interesting idea I’m not sure how this could work.”

The answer is that it wouldn’t work. You cannot have your main policy as leaving a United Kingdom and then joining it. In any case the area that swayed the referendum to leave was the North Of England. Furthermore it is sheer twaddle that they have no one to vote for.

Neither had Scotland until they started parties that stood for independence. Then these parties fused into the SNP. There were other Scottish parties that claimed to stand for Home Rule.

Kier Hardie began in the Scottish Crofter’s Party, got sponsored by the Scottish Liberals then stood in England before becoming the very First Labour MP?
However, here is a brief history of the Labour party we know today:-

In 1900 the Trades Union Congress (the national federation of British trade unions) cooperated with the Independent Labour Party (founded in 1893) to establish a “Labour Representation Committee”, which took the name Labour Party in 1906.

The North of England has had ample time to start any kind of opposition party they desired. Sedgefield, in Durham elected Tony Blair. The North of England has only itself to blame. As, of course, has Scotland who have not yet given the SNP enough support to be able to claim to speak with the people of Scotland’s sovereignty.

wull2

It would not surprise me she had our indref first then a GE, just to win.
There is no logic in what she dose.

Ken500

Some folk should read more books. The origins of the EU was to stop war and starvation after 11WW. To stop Germany (or others) re-arming. Germany was not allowed to re-arm. Neither was Japan. Germany, Russian, Europe economy was devastated. 26Million Russians died saving the West.

It is US/UK that get involved in illegal wars. Causing the worse migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. The Europeans have to sort out the mess. Costing £Billions.

Independence in Scotland would make the north of England better off.

schrodingers cat

interesting thread

this belief in english exceptionalism was aptly demonstated by S dave yesterday, an unshakable belief that the EU will bend over and do a deal with england.

the newspapers and media patch into this belief and sell the brits exactly what they want to hear, ie that the EU needs us more than we need them. This has been happening since the end of WW2, from commando comics to 1966 to team gb and it is ingrained in peoples minds. this was why brexit won

they reach out and grab onto any statistic offered by politicians which enforces this ingrained belief, eg, the eu exports more to the uk than we do to them, or the uk buys more bmws than any other nation on earth…

stats by their very nature are of course true but they dont always highlight the underlying truth, regardless of which, S dave uses them to bolster his belief that no deal will cause 100,000’s of job loses across the EU. S dave is, remember, a remain voter, not a brexiteer.

(50% of UK exports to the EU, only 5% EU exports to the UK, BMW sells 6% to UK, 4% to France, 5% to Germany, 3% to italy, 5% to sweden, etc, + the other 22 eu countries)

Scotland has suffered from this union, always being second fiddle to the english, the subtle propaganda has been going on for decades and is only now being realised. Our fight is to convince the scots that they are as good as anyone else, not better.

Sensible dave and his compatriots have a lot further to fall before the sharp wakeup call of reality even catches their attention

Meg merrilees

O/T

Total chaos on ‘Any Questions’ , audience booing, hissing, cheering, shouting rubbish, Fraser Nelson roundly laughed at and ridiculed; Discussion on Irish border causing almost total breakdown of programme.

BC R4 link to bbc.co.uk

Anna Soubry being very vocal too.

No further discussion in H o C until May??? Not sure I heard that correctly…

Johnathan Dimbleby struggling but managing to retain control..

Robert Peffers

@wull says: 3 March, 2018 at 12:11 pm:

“‘Scottish, National, Pro-european’.”

Nah! wull, it is a bad idea and will not work.

In the first place the English have firmly fixed in their DNA that the name of the SNP is, “The Scottish Nationalist Party”, and every Englander knows in their water that all those called, “Nationalists”, equate with NAZIs and that Englanders are NOT, “Nationalist/NAZIs”, because they are, “English Patriots”, and even if the Oxford Dictionary quotes the two words, Nationalist and Patriot, as synonyms, one to the other, they know in their water that isn’t true.

Just take a wee trawl through Twitter, or any other social media thingy, and the proof will jump out and bite you.

Calum McKay

Assume Mrs May’s speach was delivered on a Friday afternoon to avoid criticism from those in Brussels. Typical of Mrs May, a wee feartie!

Problem with this is ithe criticism mounts up over weekend and will hit her like a tidal wave on Sunday or Monday. GOOD!

Latest wheeze from Mrs May was we should all unite a make brexit a success. My response to this is to continue to buy Scottish goods first & foremost, to avoid English products and buy EU products, if from Ireland, all the better!

Direct action is required, I hope Nicola piles on the pressure next week.

Personally I’d go for a vote Scottish Parliament to reject the EU bill just as Mrs May sits down with EU leaders in three weeks time.

Make the tories’ lives hell, they are happy to make everyone else’s lives miserable!

Valerie

@ wull

The question of the SNP standing down south, has been raised a number of times, and been dismissed by various SNP bods.

It has been politely pointed out, that a party whose main policy is independence for Scotland, cannot stand south of the Border.

Mr Peffers makes plenty of good points too.

I for one, do not want to see their focus diluted, where decisions on policy would have to have a UK dimension?

England has to sort itself out. They are predominantly right wing, no matter if we do feel sorry for those abandoned by Labour.

galamcennalath

Can’t see anyone having highlighted this tweet ….

Nicola Sturgeon
@NicolaSturgeon
Spoke to PM last night. Reiterated @scotgov position on continued membership of single market/customs union. Indicated our desire to reach agreement on Withdrawal Bill but emphasised again the issue of principle at stake – we will not agree to a power grab on @ScotParl

TMay might stop the ‘power grab’ but it now seems highly unlike she will deliver ‘continued membership of single market/customs union’.

Abulhaq

The way to handle Imperialist England might well be to think like an Englishman. Thinking like a Scot, Irish or Welsh (or Indian or Egyptian for historical reference) simply makes little impact; you’ll be spotted and neutralised from afar, the guns of disdain blazing.
Understand your adversary. Look, think and sound the part, however contrived. Be the wily, shape-shifting wolf within the anglo-saxon fold.
Nationalists of the old school instinctively knew the power and insight gained from such subversive deception.
Might lend some excitement to these intra-Brexit doldrums.

Dr Jim

As long as the four countries of the UK keep subscribing to the criteria that the country with the largest population even when wrong must be right because of weight of numbers however disadvantageous that may be to the other three countries there can never be democracy in any meaningful sense, what you have created by subscription is voluntary acquiescence to dictatorship by the largest entity in that Union

The population of that largest country can then at will decide on anything they choose or assess at anytime to be good for their part of that Union and thus it has always been and if there is detriment to other parts of the Union those other smaller parts have no redress other than to send outnumbered representatives to speak but never to win any reasoned argument of their part of that Union

If you were to use sporting metaphors it’s three lightwieghts versus the heavywieght but only one at a time because the heavywieght makes the rules of the contest and is also the referee

I was born in the forties so well used to the dominance and duplicity of this system of governance created by and on behalf of the largest country in the Union

Simply put if any country were to be offered the opportunity to join such a system today in this modern age no country on earth would ever undertake to signing up to this obvious unequal insanity where all decisions were made adjudicated on and proceeded with by the largest country purely on the basis of trust that that largest country would always make the decisions which suited it and not the others

Which is why the EU who is faced with the problem of disentangling the UK from their Union that member (UK) who have never known any other way than being in charge of everything is insisting that the UK (England who sees itself as the UK) commits every single detail of their intentions in legal text, because the EU are fully aware and have said clearly, the UK (England) cannot be trusted on rhetoric alone as demonstrated by their treatment of the countries within their own Union (UK)

Hence the absolute and overwhelming necessity for the Continuity Bill now proceeding through the Scottish parliament and why a number of UK Union representatives in the Scottish parliament have and will vote against every stage of that Bill because their intent is to once again undermine any and all representation of a smaller part of what they see as their United Kingdom

In 1707 I cannot believe that when the people who took the decision to sell Scotland into this Union with England ever suspected this would be the result, for if they did they would surely have suspected their names would go down in historical infamy for ever committing such a crime against a people

The SNP represents Scotland they know this history to be true thus they will never repeat what has gone before and put themselves in that historical position

That’s why the SNP can be trusted whereas the UK (England) can never be

Apologies for the long post I needed to get this out

Tinto Chiel

Wonderful ‘toon as per, Chris.

“Have just finished reading ‘The Way Forward’ by Shafi/Jamieson in the BellaC mag in The National.
Fuckin ragin’, away for a walk…
? ? ? ”

@Ian Brotherhood: in the absence of a budgie cage, the free copy of Bella Caledonia from inside The National is now nestling in my paper bin since I saw some ridiculous pro-Corbyn fluffing in the first article I began reading.

We don’t need this tiresome trendy splittist nonsense. Enough damage was done by this magnificent organ of the press in the Scottish elections. I see one of its most tiresome faux independistas is now being quoted in The Grauniad.

*Grinds teeth*

One_Scot

Lol, I can’t help from get the feeling that Nicola is itching for Theresa May to give her an opportunity to call #ScotRef, no matter how small.

Theresa, I would tread very carefully if I was you, but then I’m not, so by all means feel free to jump in head first if you fancy.

starlaw

Wull don’t know what planet your on.

SNP is a Scottish party and when we get Indy do you propose we stand canditates in English seats. Take these seats, then incorporate these counties into Scotland, put your glass down and go home for your tea. Let England worry about England.

galamcennalath

OT something I noticed in WoS twitter and worth highlighting.

HMG is ‘proudly’ telling us that in 2016/17 defence expenditure in Scotland was £1.6billion.

link to mobile.twitter.com

Firstly, total defence spending was £35.3billion.

Secondly, according to GERS, Scotland was charged £3.8billion as our contribution towards defence.

Any BritNat who claims Scotland isn’t being ripped off, or worse believes it is subsided, needs to have this presented to them!

Glamaig

things are hotting up but I really think UK needs to be committed irreversibly before we call Indyref2 i.e during the period the EU is ratifying the withdrawal treaty – or during the transition period – so they cant undermine it in the middle of the campaign e.g by promising to stay in the Single Market or any weasel words.

gus1940

According to the BBC Scotland web site the circulation of The Scotsman continues its relentless (hee hee) sail Down The Swanee.

The declared circulation of 20k consists of 10k paid sales, 5k subscription sales plus 5k given away free.

So only 10k people actually buy a copy over the counter.

It used to be the case that as far as Births/Marriages and Deaths it was the norm to put an announcement in The Scotsman.

With only 15k people now buying the rag what is the point of paying for an announcement which will be seen by so few people.

This situation is a real problem as there now seems to be little chance of finding out when somebody one knows but with whom has not been in regular contact dies.

Cactus

Two things ah wiz wondering about…

1) Have the two new characters been given names, as of yet?
2) How auld is oor Hamish (when wiz he born?)

Ye could start a ‘competition’ for the naming of the two new number ones.

Cuddly toys all round.

Ian Brotherhood

@TC –

As you know, I’m not easily ruffled, but that screed really got my hackles up, reminded me of post-indy, the fuckin mess caused by RISE, the utter shite some of them used to come out with to justify what was – as far as I could tell – pure entryism.

But what do I know? I’m one of the ‘male, pale, stale’ brigade who were so despised by young thrusters like Boyd and Shafi.

It all reminds me of someone we discussed very recently. If you haven’t seen this before please stick with it for a couple of minutes. It’s Limmy, with Malcolm Malcolm of The Politics Bar. I wish we knew who he based this character on but I suppose we can all ‘see’ our fave hipster radical in there somewhere…

link to youtube.com

Daisy Walker

Fabulous cartoon, as always. Re Billboards and DIY Yes. If you have a car or a prominent window, print off one of Indyposter boys efforts and display there.

Simple, easy, lots to choose from and very informative. What you waiting for.

Re English exceptionalism, whenever someone starts up with the better together/part of something bigger, ScotNatz’s shite, I just say now, very loudly, how fed up I am with English Nationalists, wrapping it up in Union Jack, stamping the word British on it, and pretending its something ‘other’, and this business of them pretending that they ‘don’t have a dog in this race’ has worn a bit thin now too. It shuts them up big time and puts them back on their heals a bit.

I’m reading Hidden History – Secret Origins of the First World War by Gerry Doherty and Jim Macgregor. Very interesting, and alas, also not very surprising.

The Labour party are just as English Nationalist as the Tories (and almost from the start – have always been so), they just offer us the chance to be part of a ‘colony of poor’ united in our poverty and efforts to relieve same.

Which is kind of what Wull is offering by suggesting SNP members run for election in England.

The biggest change comes about from one area/country/group getting their hands on the levers of power and making the change come about. That is inspirational, and that is what the establishment has alway gone to great lengths to scupper at every level.

At the end of the day, I can’t do anything about what any person (English or otherwise) wants to think about me, all I can do is be responsible for my actions and behaviour – worrying about their opinion is to chase a will o the wisp.

What I am sure of is when Scotland gets Indy, a lot of good English people will have to do some serious taking stock of their home set up, and will hopefully create a good change from there. All the moneys from the Colonies (including Scotland) have been used to keep them pacified, they need a grounding before they can build again.

What is it that was said during Ind Ref 1 – live each day as if we are already independent – I’ll go for that.

Broken Vow, Brexshit Chaos – Yes Now.

Cherry

Great drawing once again Chris 🙂 I do love the two new friends of Hamish.

Found this…explains another reason for the “power grab”
link to truepublica.org.uk

Socrates MacSporran

One of my mates has this afternoon posted on facebook, a clip, put out by the EPP grou in the European Parliament, of a speech by Esteban Gonzalez Pons on Brexit.

It’s from about a year ago. He does not miss the Little Englanders and hit the wall, but, needless to say, his target have simply ignored him and carried-on regardless.

Sorry, I cannot link to it, but, worth looking for.

Cherry

Here’s another

link to truepublica.org.uk

We have to get out soon!

Tinto Chiel

I’ve never seen that before, Ian B, but uncannily like your typical quinoa-burger munching/organic espadrille-wearing achingly trendy zoomer. Slurrying of words and “Scoddish” are markers.

Female version: usually seen in long, leather coat, hair as if pulled backwards through a hedge with pink bow tied to a blond tussock. Elfin face pouts soulfully at the camera. Wants to have JC’s metaphorical babies.

Self-indulgent egotists but also very useful idiots for the Establishment.

Robert Peffers

@Cactus says: 3 March, 2018 at 2:34 pm:

“Two things ah wiz wondering about…
1) Have the two new characters been given names, as of yet?
2) How auld is oor Hamish (when wiz he born?)
Ye could start a ‘competition’ for the naming of the two new number ones.
Cuddly toys all round”

If they do have a competition they will have to ban Englanders from it or, by sheer weight of numbers the dragon will be named Taffy and the wee Irish leprechaun either Pat or Mick.

The English have a derogatory name for every nation on Earth except, of course an English person.

ben madigan

a few comments –
excellent cartoon Chris but I have to criticise the depiction of ireland.
She should be taller, surrounded by 27 angels (our gallant allies in Europe) and no longer dressed as a leprauchan as we (26/32 counties) have taken our place among the nations of the world.And the leprachaun is an English caricature of the irish!

re whoever asked about a crashout NO Deal. The EU has said that all Treaties stop – no planes fly, no driving licences are valid,so no lorries trading goods, UK seamen can no longer be employed on EU boats and ships, no educational titles are recognised, no EU tested drugs for the sick, no isotopes for radiotherapy for cancer patients, no UK mineral waters sold in the EU etc – i could go on ad infinitum

Might be the best thing to happen as IMHO it could cause a revolution in the UK within 2 days!

wull

Robert Peffers says:
3 March, 2018 at 12:02 pm
@wull says: 3 March, 2018 at 11:28 am:

“Pro-EU Remain voters in England have no one to vote for. So … why don’t the SNP put up some candidates in England?”

Aw! Cummon! The party that wants to be independent from England standing candidates in the country/kingdom that it wants to leave? It is two faced and would only lose them voters in Scotland.

Robert, I always read your posts with interest, and agree with you on many, indeed most things, but not always. This is obviously one of them!

Maybe it all depends on whether you believe that Scottish independence will genuinely be good for England, or not. I think that when independence does happen it’ll turn out to be a ‘win-win’ result on both sides of the border, for Scotland AND England both. You seem to think otherwise. That’s OK – we can agree to differ on that one.

Others might ask: Why do I think our independence, and therefore the break-up of the UK, will be as good for England as it is for Scotland? Basically, both countries / both nations will re-discover themselves. In fact, both of them will re-discover their better selves. That ‘better self’ – in both instances, not just in England but in Scotland too – had been buried, lost sight of and covered in grime during three centuries of what is best described as Unionist Imperialism.

Becoming independent from each other is basically about rubbing all that old Imperial grime off from ourselves. From our two selves, that is, because Scotland was at least as much involved in that old Imperial Project as England was.

Since that rotten old Project collapsed – I remember being fascinated as I watched it finally falling to bits when I was a boy – Scotland has adapted to the new situation much better and more quickly than England.

That, at least to me, explains a huge amount about contemporary differences between Scotland and England. And also about the present political climate in the UK. Brexit, and differing attitudes towards Brexit and indeed towards Europe and Europeans, are part of this. So too are various developments over the course of my lifetime, not the least of which is the rise of the SNP and the more general movement for Scottish independence.

There is a very simple reason why England is miles behind. It did not properly adapt to the loss of Empire, and Brexit is the ‘last hurrah’ of the doomed and long-since-defeated Imperial Project. What we re witnessing is really tragic, so much so I find it both unbelievable and very hard to watch. It’s a sad sight indeed. Has it come to this?

England, really and truly, needs to be saved from itself. And it was – and still is – up to us, Scotland and the Scots, to mount the rescue. How? By becoming independent.

The fact that we very nearly did it in 2014 cannot be taken as any consolation; we should be blaming ourselves for not going the whole way. It was our moral duty to dig our neighbour out of the awful pit they had made for themselves, by becoming independent. Instead, we left them there, deluded with (and consoled by) their illusions, which then gathered strength and turned into the Brexit Tragedy which is now unfolding before our eyes.

Scottish independence was, and is, the only blow to the English psyche which will be sufficient to save England from herself. No other medicine will ever be strong enough to spring her out of her delusional fantasy-land. Nothing else can force her into the modern world, and make her the positively contributing nation she can and should be once again.

In England, the result of the 2014 referendum was experienced as a victory for (what in our view is the wrong kind of) English Nationalism. That strange and long outdated English Nationalism, which had manifested itself in the Imperial Project then swelled and carried on like a river in spate. It took heart from that (apparent) victory over the Scots in 2014 in order to launch its new campaign against the Europeans. Gaining that further apparent (but entirely Pyrrhic) victory during the Brexit referendum two years later.

Having gubbed the Scots, a rampant England had now gubbed the Europeans as well. It is perfectly obvious that if the Scots had won in 2014, neither the Tories nor anyone else in England would have risked a Brexit referendum in 2016. The whole idea would have become unthinkable, and would have been shelved for good.

In that case, none of the present nonsense would have existed, and England would by now have been coming back to its senses, quickly recovering from having been dazed and confused by the knock-out blow delivered by the Scots in 2014.

Scotland would have been independent, England would have begun to adapt in a new and much better way to the post-Imperial world, and both countries – I am quite sure – would have been fellow members of the European Union, and good friends with each other.

The reason that did not happen – and the reason why England is now self-evidently in such an enormous mess – is simply because we Scots did not win the independence referendum of 2014. As I said, I believe Scottish independence is and will be the best thing that ever happened to England. It will save the English nation from its own deluded past, to which she has remained far too beholden, shackling her with a totally false image of herself and of her place in the world which prevents her from making the positive contribution which ought to be hers. And which makes her – I am sorry to say it, but I think it is true – a danger both to herself and to others.

There is a logic in all of this. Legally, the Scottish perception of what the Union is, as a partnership between two nations, is correct. Whatever the questionable nature of that Union’s origins, and how it was actually brought about, legally it is a Treaty between two equally free entities and, as such, it can be ended by any one of the two Parties. However, the legal reality is one thing, and what happens in a nation’s psyche is another.

What some of us had known or thought for a long time became perfectly obvious during the campaign for the 2014 referendum: contrary to Scottish assumptions and the legal reality, in the English psyche the Union of 1707 was presumed to have been a victory for the imperial project of Edward I, as pursued at the end of the 13th and beginning of the 14th Century.

There is a straight line between that medieval project of the English crown in regard to Scotland (where it did not succeed), as well as towards Wales and Ireland, the beginnings of the English Empire in the 16th and 17th Century in America etc. prior to the creation of the UK, and the ongoing and expanding Imperial Project which continued apace after the 1707 Union.

I would suggest that in the buried-away corners of the English psyche all of that subsequent imperial development roots back and has its foundations in Edward I’s project, especially towards Scotland. Scotland is the key to the English imperial mindset, with which Brexit is entirely bound up, so much so that it may be called the contemporary expression of that mindset.

Edward I’s project was to subject Wales, Ireland and Scotland to England, but it wasn’t just that. Scotland was the key element all along, even though it was the one he tackled last, because he had to wait till the opportunity and circumstances he needed arose. It was the most difficult, because it meant eliminating an established Kingdom. Annihilating – that is, reducing to nothing – the already existing Kingdom of Scotland and its kingship, which meant its reality as a political entity, was the crux of his imperial project to subject the whole of the British Isles to his, the English crown.

If I am right, and that is the basis all the subsequent development of the English Imperial Project throughout the world, you can see why holding on to Scotland is so important to the English psyche. If Scotland goes, the whole Project goes.

And England will have to change radically. Literally, ‘radically’ – in her roots. … Think of the English Imperial Project – or rather mindset / (political) psyche – as a tree, in the roots of which lie the absolute need to control and subject Scotland. Cut the roots, and the whole tree falls. Not only falls, but dies – with the roots gone, the tree is drained of its sustenance.

No wonder there is such a dread of Scotland becoming independent. The depth of that fear, especially among the English establishment and those too easily influenced by it, became apparent in new ways during the independence campaign. So much so it surprised even me.

At the same time – and this is one of the reasons why I think the SNP should get involved in England – I think there are a lot of English people who, today, have really had enough of that old imperial mindset. They are desperate to get rid of it, and we can – and should – help them. What the establishment see as their identity, and their very lifeblood, they see as a cancer which needs at long last to be cut out, once and for all.

Painting with a broad brush, you could say, in psychological terms (in terms of the psyche), that that is the real difference (the root difference) between England’s Remainers and her increasingly mad and delusional Brexiteer fundamentalists. We ought to be helping the Remainers, even in England, not just washing our hands of them and leaving them to their fate (which means handing them over to the Leavers, and the looniest wing thereof).

There is a conflict going on down south between the ‘England First / Make England Great Again’ brigade (a la Trump) and that sweetly reasonable, moderate and tolerant Englishness which everyone in his right mind admires. Even in terms of Scotland’s future, and our future relations with our immediate neighbour, we should be doing all we can, even now, to ensure that the latter come out on top.

The SNP putting up candidates in English constituencies would, in my opinion, be a laudable and constructive move towards that end. Why should reasonaable Englishmen be deprived of the possibility of voting for the most reasonable Party with substantial representation at Westminster. This would not be hypocrisy, but good common sense. The SNP does not simply seek independence from England – a phrase which could be taken to imply that it is currently subject to England, which is not the case, but I know it was not at all meant in that way – it wants Scotland’s future relation with England to be positive and entirely amicable, and set on a different and much firmer foundation than has been the case in the past.

And why would Scottish independence be against the major interests of the inhabitants of any English constituency? Maybe there are some, but I can’t think of any particular place in England that is directly dependent on Scotland in economic or any other terms.

In that regard, it seems obvious to me that Nicola Sturgeon, for one, will do everything in her power to ensure there is no hard border between England and Scotland. She may not have said it explicitly, but it is clearly the main reason why she has downplayed the long-standing SNP policy of an independent Scotland being a full member state of the EU. It is surely concern to keep the English border open after independence that is causing her to toy with – or, at least, to allowing other SNP members to toy with – the idea that a Norway-style arrangement (customs union, single market etc.) might be enough, or even better.

If that is the only way to keep the open border with England after independence, irrespective of my own opinions on the matter, I am almost certain that that is the way the SNP will go.

I don’t think putting up SNP candidates in English constituencies is either hypocritical or two-faced. Instead, voting SNP – whether here or there – would be a matter of doing what’s best for both of us.

Promoting the SNP down there would be a way of propagating the reasonableness of its policies, many of which certainly do affect the whole of the UK. And most of these are policies which no other major Party in Westminster supports. For instance, opposition to the renewal of Trident, and the abolition of nuclear arsenals generally.

English voters deserve the chance to vote for such reasonable policies just as much as we do; these policies currently affect their own country no less than they affect ours.

And after independence? Well, if the SNP is doing well in some places in England it could just continue. It would presumably do so as a new, purely English Party, with a revised name, but continuing to pursue policies similar to those of the SNP and in something of the same spirit. And maintaining friendly links with its sister Party in the country to the North, without being in any way dependent upon it. Who can doubt that it would be useful to an independent Scotland if such a Party could indeed enter successfully into mainstream English politics?

England too will have regained her independence at that point, and will be better able to be her true – that is, her better – self. With psyche duly purified of all these old imperial illusions. It might just be this Party, now truly English, with its origins in the SNP, that leads England back into Europe … Personally, I would love that … !

Allow me the fantasy – even just for the smallest of moments – of victory eventually going to ‘sweet reasonableness’, in the end.

The EU was created in order to prevent any further outbreak of war in Europe … That must surely include a cease to the hostilities between Scotland and England. That is why I say let us never stop doing, as best we can, what is best for both our nations. Others are welcome to disagree, but I think our becoming independent from each other, at this particular juncture of history, will be the best way to serve that end. And – again, others may disagree – I would prefer that we would both do so as full members of the EU.

I also think that in this respect the SNP operating in England as well as Scotland would be a very positive development. Promoting the independence of both Scotland and England and laying out how lastingly friendly relations can be secured and guaranteed between the two nations is something that urgently needs to be put across. People, on both sides of the border, need to be convinced that this is really what will happen.

The SNP has a hugely positive role to play in banishing English fears, and garnering English support. Even for an independent England, not at all of the Brexiteer type – but, instead, building an ‘England in Europe’ mentality. That is what is needed to replace the old Imperial English mentality from which we all have suffered, England included.

This pro-English aspect of the matter, if taken on in the right spirit by the SNP, would also be good for Scots generally and for SNP voters, members and sympathisers in particular. Being pro-Scottish, and pro-independence, even fervently so, is not about being anti-English.

Even among thinking pro-Union Scots, one of the things that makes them suspicious of independence is that they perceive the whole movement, and especially the SNP, to be anti-English. We know that that is a false perception, but that is not enough. We have to be able to demonstrate to such people that their perception is wrong, and convince them to change their minds, and come on board for independence.

Being pro-Scotland and in favour of her independence has to be re-conceived in such a way that it is also about being pro-English. What we are proposing for Scotland is genuinely in England’s best interests. For anyone who has eyes to see, or a mind to understand, the Brexit mess is clear proof of that.

Let England be herself (her true self), and Scotland too. Both of them free and independent, within the concert of European nations. And both of them making a positive contribution there, and to each other.

schrodingers cat

re the dragons name = griff

dunno about the leprechan, reminds me of the see you jimmy hats which i dislike

galamcennalath

Robert Peffers says:

The English have a derogatory name for every nation on Earth except, of course an English person.

Funnily enough, I can’t think of a Scots name for them.

There is Sassenach, but that really refers on a southern non Gael so could well include Lowland Scots.

The rest of the world certainly has names for them – Pom, Limey, etc..

My favourite is the German … Inselaffe … meaning island monkey, which given Brexit is unnecessarily offensive to innocent monkeys everywhere!

schrodingers cat

to iain brotherhood

I must admit to having criticised and defended these lefties in the past but this latest bout of attention seeking is the last straw

kat boyd
angela hagerty
jonathon shafi
loki

any i have missed?

Reluctant Nationalist

Keep yer hands off me lucky charms, to be sure.

yesindyref2

@ben madigan
Yes, I’m disappointed with the leprechaun, if I showed that to my wife she’d be disgusted (though she’d also laugh at the ignorance). But the Yanks are a bit like that, they still apparently think there’s a cow in the living room.

Smallaxe

I don’t know if anyone else has posted this but here it is again just in case no one has.

Scotland in Europe Update: 2nd March 2018;
link to alynsmith.eu

yesindyref2

@Ian B
There’s a series in The National and I hardly even bother reading them, their idea is of some leisurely way forward that would take about 10 years by which time we’e fsked completely. They’re also “honest” about the costs by multiplying any reasonable figure by 10. Can’t wait to not read their defence plan.

Maybe they’re angling after the rest of the Labour vote. Proof of their pudding will be when Indy Ref 2 is announced, will they fall into full support of it, or be complaining “it’s too soon”?

Daisy Walker

@ Wull says,

‘I think there are a lot of English people who, today, have really had enough of that old imperial mindset. They are desperate to get rid of it, and we can – and should – help them.

The SNP has a hugely positive role to play in banishing English fears, and garnering English support. Even for an independent England, not at all of the Brexiteer type – but, instead, building an ‘England in Europe’ mentality. That is what is needed to replace the old Imperial English mentality from which we all have suffered, England included.

Let England be herself (her true self)’

Dear Wull, you make very interesting points, which are in effect a variation on the ‘labour/socialist’ theme of ‘not abandoning the poor, working man of England with whom we have so much in common’.

Very nice English people continue to vote en mass for Conservatives, and by a majority (however much you disagree) for Brexit – however much you don’t like this I respectfully suggest this is an expression of England’s ‘true self’.

I’ve met many a nice English person who does not and will not face up to the realities of British colonising, as the money from the asset stripping of other countries kept rolling in.

They didn’t know much – and thats how they liked it – but they kent whit side their bread was buttered.

If they truly are ‘ desperate to get rid’ of their current system of government – we’ll see some evidence of them protesting, organising, educating’. But like self determination – this is not something other people from other countries can do for them, on their behalf. We can and we should butt out.

And in the same vein – I was an admirer of The Canary, who were one of the few English media sites that wrote about Scottish Indy and the SNP fairly…. right up until Corbyn came onto the agenda, then they couldn’t forget us quick enough. Socialist Solidarity my erse.

The SNP have a big job to do, sorting out England’s democratic deficit is not it.

cearc

Dafydd de Dragon?

C’mon Welsh Sion, where are you when you’re needed?

Fred

@ Ian & the Cat, spot-on anent this self-appointed quartet of egotists, give them nuthin!

Fairly missed my National this week but not read Bella yet. Alan Hinnrichs from Dundee never disappoint on the letters front, wonder if he posts on Wings?

@ Wull, for a guy who posts half a yard & hasn’t joined the SNP is a bit odd! Stick yer haun in yer pooch man!

Alisdair

Wull at 3.38

I take it that you are actually an English remainer? It is none of Scotland’s business what England wants to do or does, nor is it our right to interfere in an other country’s politics, it is up to England, Wales and the Unionists in Northern Ireland to get on with it and then suck it up. We in the Frozen north have an out clause, our sovereign status and we will be exercising it.

Ian Brotherhood

@schrodingers cat –

I went back and read that piece again. It’s really difficult to nail what’s so infuriating about it, but it’s more to do with the tone of voice than any specific fact or detail.

There’s a patronising self-satisfied undertone to it, a presumption that the reader either shares the writers’ internationalist agenda or has yet to ‘find’ it.

Well, fuck that.

I don’t ‘share’ Shafi’s vision and I honestly don’t know anyone who *does* who isn’t also a blinkered ideologue. The same people who are fucking thick enough to confess to voting Labour while standing on a Yes platform are those who utterly wrecked the SSP and, with that, any hope of unifying the Left in Scotland. I had an exchange with Mike Small about this just the ther day after he took exception to a comment I made about CallKaye. He asked if I now, like so many others, ‘hate’ BellaC. I assured him I don’t, and that’s true *but* it’s well-nigh impossible to defend the publication of that shite from Shafi & Jamieson.

Many of the trendies who will have nodded away to themselves this morning while reading that piece conform to the stereotype so accurately sketched by Tinto Chiel (3.27), but their ‘spokespersons’ are far from the endearingly dense character created by Limmy. They are dangerous exploitative narcissists who haven’t even the common decency to set their stall out honestly – instead, they clamber onto any platform which has a microphone and, preferably, generous limelight.

The Yes movement does not need these fuckers. Most are identifiable e.g. if they’ve been approved for live studio appearances in Pacific Quay then they’ve already been vetted and are considered ‘safe’. Yes groups should always work on the assumption that the trendies have an anti-SNP agenda, then leave the individuals to prove otherwise. If they can’t or won’t, have nothing to do with them – don’t give them anything, especially your precious time, because they will waste as much of it as they can get away with.

Terry

@daisy. Excellent points.

If it’s coming – and I think it is let’s commit to getting out there. This site educates us. It’s our ammo. And I love it. But if you’re fit and able get out there too and join a Yes group. Fundraise, convert, campaign. Read wings, the dug, Scot goes pop then spread the word- to the unconverted. And don’t let the fudge over rise etc distract us. We need the keys to the house before we can choose the wallpaper.

galamcennalath

yesindyref2 says:

some leisurely way forward that would take about 10 years

Indeed. The aspect which they seem oblivious to would be the omnipresence of a hostile Greater England nationalist WM doing their damnedest to thwart Scotland at every stage!

My own feeling is that holding IndyRef2 and winning it is a big challenge, however after that WM won’t make things at all easy.

With these Brexit so called negotiations, we’ve seen the usual antics of perfidious Albion combined with indecisiveness. This is ‘only’ about withdrawing from the EU. We can only barely imagine how it will be when they turn to ‘negotiating’ the dissolution of their beloved UK!

Scotland will be forced to move ahead without cooperation and by necessity unilaterally. Well, we will need friends but I somehow don’t think we will find them in London.

I believe when the time comes to setting up the apparatus of state for iScotland, we won’t have the luxury of time!

gus1940

Something I have seldom seen commented on is that at the height of the alleged wonderful British Empire on which the sun never set in the late Victorian period and up to WW1 very few of the UK population benefited in any way from it.

The vast majority lived in abject poverty in slum conditions and the only ones who benefited were the same bunch of arrogant bastards who are still in charge.

Things really only improved for them after WW2 but from the advent of the Thatcher government the clock has been and continues to be wound back.

Cactus

Here are some characters from an alternate universe: (Hi LM xx)
link to wingsoverscotland.com

…commented upon 180 times, so far, good darts, SSG 🙂

Take a wonder and then ponder this new readers:
link to wingsoverscotland.com

Let’s get Scotland back to normal.

iAye.

Andy McKangry

Bella Caledonia pull out went straight to the footwell in my car, soaks up the water off my shoes.
Haven’t read any of their stuff since they championed a split vote in last Scottish Election.
People who would put their own wee personal ultra leftie agenda before Scottish independence every time.

yesindyref2

@galamcennalath
The timing of Indy Ref 2 is getting to be about right, with the shambles of the Brexit negotiations even Leave voters might be getting worried.

And apart from that, why spend 10 years preparing for Independence to avoid a transistional period which is nonsense anyway, why not go for Independence and have the transitional period then rather than before?

I’m not convinced they understand the meaning of the word “Independence”.

Dave McEwan Hill

Ian Brotherhood at 11.13 am

With you completely. I will not be buying the Saturday National that includes the Bella magazine

jfngw

@Ian brotherhood

I’ve had a look at these ‘independence’ sites, they are the go to commentators for the MSM so that should immediately raise alarm bells. Never visit them now or ever likely to contribute.

I have no interest in some commentators that advise me that I can gain independence by voting for a party 100% opposed to independence.

What normally happens is if you try to criticise them you will then be outed in a tweet or article accusing you of some unacceptable behaviour to try an silence you (or even reported to the police). This is quite well demonstrated today by a particular tweet doing the rounds.

Marie Clark

I have to agree with Ian B and some of the others re Bella magazine. I’m afraid I tend to have a wee skeg through to see if there is anything interesting, then it’s straight into the bin. I find that I really object to this bloomin magazine in my National every month. I really want my paper, but no this crap.What to do, miss the National the first Saturday of the month. I mean your paying extra for this nonsense. What planet are these buggers on.

Should the dragon no be called Idris.

schrodingers cat

gotta agree ian
i was going to say that they are not ideologically driven but i think they are nothing more than opportunists.

being part of the chatteratti means they have to be continually noticed, controvesial etc which is why they criticise the yes supporters (wos, snp etc) it is their noteriety within this org that has given them oxygen.

it also means they will tow the britnat line and become the exceptable face of yes, right on cue, 5 mins ago i see a feed on my twitter where loki is being interviewed by owen jones in the guardian.

this ice ax is making my ears burn and i intend to do something about it.

kat boyd
angela hagerty
jonathon shafi
loki
? jamison

at next local yes group I intend to introduce a motion to make these people persona non grata
i.e. we will have nothing to do with any rally, publication or movement that promotes or gives these individuals any air time.

enough is enough, time for a clear out

jfngw

@gus1940

I suspect the elite feared that they were about to be given USSR treatment and decided to spread a little of their cash around to quell the natives. The USSR collapse allowed them to return to their old ways and put the plebs back in their box. They have succeeded beyond their wildest imaginations, they even have lots of them voting for poverty.

schrodingers cat

Andy McKangry says:

People who would put their own wee personal ultra leftie agenda before Scottish independence every time.

they arent though andy, they are furthering their careers by doing this, any socialist or independence agenda is a secondary to their own personal gain

Alisdair

gus1940 says:
3 March, 2018 at 4:25 pm
Something I have seldom seen commented on is that at the height of the alleged wonderful British Empire on which the sun never set in the late Victorian period and up to WW1 very few of the UK population benefited in any way from it.

The vast majority lived in abject poverty in slum conditions and the only ones who benefited were the same bunch of arrogant bastards who are still in charge.

Things really only improved for them after WWII but from the advent of the Thatcher government the clock has been and continues to be wound back.

Aye and apparently according to the Red Tory liers it was themselves after WWII that were the engineers of it. Of course it had nothing to do with the fact that they along with the Blue and Yellow Tories including the German impostor Royal Family were fucking terrified of the sons of men who had fought and now were demanding what their own fathers had been promised and denied after WWI. Perfidious Albion is too quiet a description!

Robert Peffers

@Valerie says:3 March, 2018 at 1:56 pm:

“I for one, do not want to see their focus diluted, where decisions on policy would have to have a UK dimension?

Which was actually the point I was, rather more clumsily, making. If my memory serves me well I remember Margo Macdonald saying to my late wife and I that the best thing Scotland could ever do for the good of our English friends was to gain Scotland’s independence. She said because, by doing so, we Scots would benefit everyone in the United Kingdom.

I took it at the time the reason was that the union setup was holding the entire United Kingdom back. It made sense as London was closing down manufacturing, mining, shipbuilding and the nationalised industries by the use of North Sea oil & gas revenues and boosting the London financial services.

We found out the folly of such changes when OPEC flooded the markets with oil & gas and prices fell and the bottom dropped out of the oil & gas markets.

schrodingers cat

best just to block them

@Jonathon_Shafi @kittycatboyd @bellacaledonia @lokiscottishrap @angelahaggerty

you’re welcome

Cactus

Aye now keep a compass by my bedroom window.

SO aye can see the weather blow in.

From the east side.

Or N or S or W.

Talkin’ aboot compasses, do y’all know what your political one is?
link to en.wikipedia.org

To learn, here.

galamcennalath

@Cactus

The test is here
link to politicalcompass.org

I tend to think of myself as being in the centre, but according to this, I’m more Left and more Libertarian than Gandhi!

Liz g

Wull @ 3.38
But what you are suggesting (albeit for different reasons)
is that we share our politicians…..
That’s the whole problem in the first place Wull!
We’ve tried that…..we dinny like it..

cearc

Have done the political compass thing several times in the past. At first I would come out a little left and and down of centre, which was about what I expected. Although none of my opinions changed every subsequent time I moved sharply SW to almost off the chart!

It seems ‘the centre has not held’.

Ottomanboi

For 300 years plus the Inglis have outsmarted the Scots. Shameful and cringemaking but…..
We’re not alone. It took the Irish 800 years to be free, but not quite, of anglosaxon dealings. The history of the Near East is replete with Brit double dealing, a good deal of which is responsible for that region’s current state. We ought to be much smarter in our methods. Assuming that things will ‘get sorted’ is irresponsible wool gathering.
We maun ding doun the Britis estait! Richt nou!

ben madigan

@ Gus 1940 who said “The vast majority lived in abject poverty in slum conditions . . . .”
Quite correct Gus. Even shows like “who do you think you are” present the facts quite clearly. The prevailing myth is that we all lived in upper-middle class splendour and invisible people “in service” and urban slums loved the set-up

re the transition period which the UK requested – it’s not a given. M Barnier has said it could be “iffy”. Depends on UK behaviour. So any move for Independence shouldn’t count on it. The UK could well be totally out of the EU in April 2019

Arthur Martin

schrodingers cat @ 5.14pm

Bingo!

heedtracker

Funny scary, this time. But Brexit’s going really well, if you’re a beeb r4 gimp listener, Strong and Stable Treesa and Rees-Mogg are all in Leave agreement, simper their beeb gimps, all the live long toryboy day.

Scary tory propaganda really.

Also, WoS gets quite a big mention in the Herald from Kev MacKena today but its all mixed in with that Leonard nobody so its hard to know why.

Apparently WoS is popular so that’s something for Leonard nobody to think about if he wants to win. God knows.

Leonard nobody was in the Times explaining that Scots who would not vote for him were Scottish bigots, who would not vote for an English FM. Leonard left out the Scottish bigot but you know he means it.

Vote SLab or you’re a Scottish bigot, should make for interesting next snap UKOK general election/First Minister Leonard nobody campaigning.

heedtracker

Here’s that Mackena Saturday Herald thing, it goes paywall after 5 views here so, get ready for a toryboy rag mention of Wings over Scotland. How many times will the WoS blogger ever be seen on any BBC or ITV politics show, is not consider here, shock. Its for toryboys only, msm broadcasting.

Odd photo of oooooooold Jeremy Corbyn and Leonard nobody, at a podium…

By aligning himself with Jeremy Corbyn’s message, Richard Leonard has wisely decoupled the party in Scotland from the passive attitudes that forced many supporters to flee to the SNP.

43 comments
ONE of the most persistent axioms in Scotland’s mainstream publishing outlets is that the new media platforms which proliferated in the slipstream of the 2014 independence referendum campaign must be disparaged. These were generally viewed as untutored brigands, rough as a badger’s fundament and regarded as emblematic of how nasty and divisive the referendum had become. Three (Wings Over Scotland, Bella Caledonia and Common Space) have endured to become the Yes movement’s most authentic barometers of Scottish Nationalist thinking and support.

The daily readership of each stands comparison with the mainstream media publications and, without them, the Yes vote would not have travelled from 28% to 45% in less than two years. Those of us among the so-called mainstream commentariat who have been taken to task by Wings or Bella have too often reacted with ad hominem attacks of our own. If only they could play nicely and abide by the rules, we’d plead.

Instead they persistently refused to kick the ball out of play when one of our players was down and injured. We really had no cause to complain, though. Many of us had spent our entire careers in a bubble, protected from the barbs of incandescent readers by kindly Letters Editors who acted as gate-keepers of our newspapers to ensure we sensitive souls rarely had to encounter anything other than mild criticism. When the levee broke with the advent of social media there was a lot of pent-up anger on the part of those whom we had deemed too unruly to join our private glee club.

As the pattern of ownership of the national titles remains overwhelmingly Unionist it was only to be expected that much of the frustration found willing homes in pro-independence sites. It wasn’t so much the Word made Flesh but the word off the leash. My thoughts on this are that most of us are paid handsomely to eviscerate politicians and public servants and thus are hardly in a position to object too much when we are slaughtered in return. In the words of the great US song-writing trio Van Halen, Van Halen and Roth we ought instead “to roll with the punches and get to what’s real”.

Characteristic of Scottish Labour’s dismal failures of leadership and strategy during the past few years was its Gadarene rush to condemn the Nationalist social media warriors and attempt to link them with the SNP leadership. Under its last few leaders the party had forgotten that it was only by being loud and irascible that it had first made itself heard when challenging social injustice, an issue that does not lend itself to meekness and calm reflection. Rather than produce anything resembling a sustainable policy of their own they allowed themselves to become detached from their roots by wrapping themselves in the Union flag. It didn’t get them very far; indeed they went into reverse and were soon passed by the gleeful Scottish Tories who couldn’t believe how acquiescent their former sworn enemies had become in promoting the Union at any cost. Now though, a week before its national conference in Dundee, the Labour Party in Scotland at last appears to have learned some of the bitter lessons of the past 10 years. There is even a new social media platform called Red Robin which seems eager to give a voice to the party’s Left, a grouping which, until recently, had been treated with some disdain and suspicion by Scottish Labour chiefs. I’m not sure it will ever become as rebarbative as Wings Over Scotland (though I hope it does) but it’s made a solid start nonetheless.

The party under new leader Richard Leonard travels to the City of Discovery in fine fettle and having re-located part of its soul. Mr Leonard has yet to distinguish himself at First Minister’s Questions against Nicola Sturgeon but who has? By aligning himself with Jeremy Corbyn’s message, For the Many Not the Few, he has wisely decoupled the party in Scotland from the benign, passive attitudes that forced many of core supporters to flee to the SNP, giving such succour to Ruth Davidson.

Mr Leonard’s next step is to exert his authority by doing something about the Anas Sarwar problem. Mr Sarwar, who lost out to Mr Leonard in the Scottish leadership election, has not gone quietly. He remains close to Alan Roden, the party’s former director of communications and avowed anti-Corbynite and is blamed by several in Mr Leonard’s inner circle for fomenting tension in the party. Mr Leonard, though, will have been buoyed by the recent upsurge in donations to the party and by the success of grass-roots campaigns such as Period Poverty and ending the SNP’s foolish Offensive Behaviour at Football legislation. These are the building bricks of authentic socialism and are a rebuke to the SNP’s recent descent into gesture politics such as Named Persons, smacking, minimum unit pricing for alcohol and gender-fluidity. All are well-intentioned but are produced in a middle-class bubble that insulates its inhabitants from the far more pressing issues of child poverty, inner-city deprivation and inequality in health and educational attainment. Scottish Labour also heads for Dundee following several polls indicating that it has pushed the Scottish Conservatives into third place. It seems that no amount of appearances on London television panel shows by Ms Davidson can divert attention from political hobgoblins and gargoyles who comprised much of the recent Tory intake at Westminster and in town halls throughout Scotland.

Mr Leonard, though, would do well to ditch the self-pitying tone of his poor, little Englishman act. His recent insistence that he was a victim of anti-English racism during the 2014 referendum is redolent of the faux outrage deployed by one of his predecessors, Jim Murphy. The SNP and the Labour Party in Scotland have been served well by many fine English men and women, as well he knows. Those same voices who are alive to Mr Sarwar’s stratagems would do well to advise their boss to leave the victim narrative behind and stick to what is expected of a real Labour leader: highlighting health and educational inequality on the big stage and making small differences locally.”

Douglas

A bit O/T, does anyone know of any other political unions of two sovereign countries such as Scotland and England in 1707. And if so, have they worked out for the good. I seem to think that Belgium is a union of Principalities, and as we have seen that led to a lot of conflict. Forgive me as geography and politics are not my strongest subjects, but I am curious.

heedtracker

Mackenna’s coming it as per, Westminster politics is endless liars lying. And then their UK media distils their endless lying for us saps.

BBC r4 Week in Toryboy Politics this morn were very pleasantly fluffing future Prime Minister Rees Mogg, but he was lying like a tory twat right the way through the half hour.

As in, Rees Mogg went on and on about how the EU never gave the UK and Cameron anything at all, when they asked the EU for help to placate the Leavers of teamGB. So its the EU’s fault you see really.

Except EU could not have bent over backwards any further to give UKOK tory creeps anything and everything they demanded.

Oh to be a toryboy, pleasantly fluffed by your beeb gimps on a Saturday morning.

As usual, beeb r4 gimps total SNP blackout continues.

heedtracker

Get your geek on vile seps of future Prime Minister Rees Mogg’s Scotland region.

link to bbc.co.uk

Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun examines Theresa May’s big speech on Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn’s decision to back a customs union.

The Editor is Peter Mulligan.

They all need those knee guards carpet fitters wear, to get through spectacularly licking Rees Mogg’s arse, they all do really.

galamcennalath

heedtracker says:

future Prime Minister Rees Mogg

Oh PLEASE let it come to pass prior to IndyRef2!

I see he is bookies’ favourite for the next one in the job.

As PM he has to be worth an extra 2-3% swing to YES.

galamcennalath

@me at 7:05

The ‘dream ticket’ for IndyRef2 would be a very hard trade deal (Canada-esque), with an agreed transition period as a holding pen keeping us EU aligned, and Rees Mogg as PM 🙂

Meg merrilees

Great cartoon – a propose names can I suggest:

Hamish the Lion, Dewi the Dragon (David) and Ruari the red-headed Leprechaun.

Rock

Dave McEwan Hill,

“Ian Brotherhood at 11.13 am

With you completely. I will not be buying the Saturday National that includes the Bella magazine”

But you are The National’s chief lobbyst here, how could you boycott The National? They will sack you.

No long before the most gullible realise that The National is a fake whose only purpose is to milk the most gullible independence supporters.

Meg merrilees

I heard ‘Grees Fogg’ on the radio t’other morning after John Major’s intervention.

I thought Mr. Major at least made sense when he spoke – more than he had ever done as PM, but ‘Grees-Fogg’ was most unpleasant and damning with his rapid put-down of Major’s view basically saying that he made a hash of things when he was PM and didn’t know what he was talking about now so his remarks were irrelevant.

I thought he was downright rude about John Major, in a very sneering way too.

heedtracker

galamcennalath says:
3 March, 2018 at 7:05 pm
heedtracker says:

future Prime Minister Rees Mogg

Oh PLEASE let it come to pass prior to IndyRef2!

I see he is bookies’ favourite for the next one in the job.

As PM he has to be worth an extra 2-3% swing to YES.

Tis true!

Also, this

link to ibtimes.co.uk

Commenting on William Hill’s odds Professor John Curtice, a polling expert, said: “It’s not an unreasonable bet, but I don’t think the fact a bookie has made it odds-on favourite means it’s going to happen.

“I can’t tell you what the balance of public opinion will be by then – and it’s sufficiently close that I don’t think anyone can.

“We are living in uncertain times, and I don’t think bookies’ odds change that – other than making people think it might be worth putting money on.”

Prof Curtice gets fcuking everywhere. Are there any other psephologists at all these days in teamGB? no.

BBC Scotland’s lost all non zoomer Scots cred, Leonard nobody will flop, Viceroy Fluffie and the Colonel are going to save this farce union?

heedtracker

I thought he was downright rude about John Major, in a very sneering way too.

Yes but the tories are in a very hot civil war, why we got given Brexit ref1 and now no longer EU citizens.

Its only because of tory msm domination, its not being made a big deal of. Why would they.

Highland Wifie

@galamcennalath
Omg just did the test and also more left and more libertarian than Ghandi!
No wonder the tories upset us so much.

Rock

Stop deluding yourselves about the SNP standing in England.

The SNP vote at the last election in Scotland was 37%, down from 50% previously, with a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

Hamish100

rock back to the usual time I see. You ran off quick last night. So your 2 hour shift has begun.

The National articles were good today unlike the Bella Caledonia designed for who I am not sure. Had to double check who Shafi and Jamieson were. I also tried hard to stay awake as their self congratulating analysis said not a jot other than Corbyn is their saviour. The don’t seem to recognise that in 5 years Corbyn will be gone due to his age if not by a few well placed knifes in his back- by labour.

JLT

@Robert Peffers

Hi Robert. Possibly I am, but I can’t help feeling that there’s more going on with the EU’s intentions over Northern Ireland than it appears. Either the UK folds and gives way on an open border between both countries (which then infuriates the DUP, half of England and both Scotland and Wales), or the UK sign a deal that basically makes it nothing more than a vassal state to the EU.

‘From the outset the United Kingdom was a outlier among the European nations and never forget De Gaul’s firm opposition towards the United Kingdom’s membership of a place in Europe’.

Can’t remember if it was Andrew Marr’s book on A History of Modern Britain, but the author noted that De Gaul did want Britain in on the EU from the start …on one condition – that the UK severed all ties with the USA. De Gaul did not want to have Britain at the table but hearing an American voice coming from the British representatives. When Britain refused, De Gaul resigned himself to keeping Britain out. But the way our press have it, it was all De Gaul’s fault because he hated England. The truth was, he didn’t. De Gaul was looking at the bigger picture and feared that if the USA got a foothold at the EU table, then Europe would be signed up to every war going. It was also America’s aim to have influence over the EU (which it failed to do), because to lose influence in Europe would mean that America’s imperial policy would have to recede back over the Atlantic …and well, they couldn’t have that now. So in the end, they would throw the UK the odd bone about the ‘special relationship’ and have the UK become its eyes and ears within the EU. No wonder Washington DC was deeply unhappy at Brexit. Brexit meant that America lost its pet lapdog at the EU table.

As to my earlier post and the fall of the Prussian State. The historian Norman Davies discussed Brirtish foreign policy towards Germany in a chapter in his book Vanished Kingdoms. Davies subtly explained how imperialist Britain could never tolerate another rival in the house (Europe), and therefore were determined to beat them in WW1. After the scare by Hitler through WW2, the determination to remove all Prussian-Brandenburg imperialist intentions from Germany and in greater respect Europe was done intentionally so by Britain by removing the German Royal Family; the German army and navy and the destruction of Prussia completely by removing it from the German map. However, the greatest reprisal by Britain was to remove the Juncker class (nobility) and impose Federalism. In doing so, they removed the entire German Establishment.

That was why I mentioned in my post today as to whether some EU politicians look upon what Britain did to Germany, then look at us (and especially England with its demented vision of itself and the rest of the world, and go ‘it worked there in Germany …maybe it’s high time to do the same to Britain by weakening the Establishment political structures’

It wouldn’t be a bad thing if one ponders on it.

Bill not Ben

So the resident halfwit calls me an idiot for pointing out that the americans where allowed to have war games in a european members country without the european union saying anything about it, this was ofc a nato thing, but it all just happened to be an american army on or near the border with russia, and our resident halfwit seems to think its ok, cause Poland invited them, now as i have said before, and i will say it again in case the halfwit does not understand, all nato countries are obligated to defend any other member country that is attacked, and russia know’s this little fact of life, and btw, obama hates russia, and he still does to this day, so what was that idiot hoping to gain by doing this, all that did was make russia mistrust america and its aims, does any other halfwit, apart from our resident one here, think that trump or any other american president would have done this when the russians have been so friendly for all these years, what was the point, well my opinion, obama was trying to get the american people to think that the russians are the bad guys and not to be trusted and so obama had to go to Poland to show the american people what a big threat the russians are, and Poland does what america asks, cause Poland knows keeping in with the americans is to its advantage, and btw, Poland and Russia are on very friendly terms and have been for a long time now, why stir a pot that does not need to be stirred

Hamish100

bob not bill

so many halfwits– are you 1/2, 1 or 2? I think you should find out.

Breeks

Re the SNP presenting candidates south of the Border, just for badness, it would be kinda funny just for the EVEL factor. A Scottish MP potentially barred from representing English voters would be constitutionally interesting.

But it quickly become a distraction from Independence.

If England is so enamoured by SNP integrity and policy, there is nothing to stop them setting up their own party and ideology, enthuse and radicalise the English Remain vote the way UKIP radicalised the Leave vote. Brexit is their problem. It would be a curious dynamic to watch unfold, but preferably from the safety and distance of an independent and disinterested Scotland.

stewartb

JLT @ 8:10 pm

You write: “… there’s more going on with the EU’s intentions over Northern Ireland than it appears. Either the UK folds and gives way on an open border between both countries (which then infuriates the DUP, half of England and both Scotland and Wales), or the UK sign a deal that basically makes it nothing more than a vassal state to the EU.”

I have no problem with the UK ‘folding’ and giving way on a open border between e.g. NI and the Republic. My concern then is what Scotland needs and must demand – or take. I would not wish to oppose a sensible open border on the island of Ireland – I’d welcome it.

I find your concept of a deal in present circumstances that makes the UK or any part of the UK a ‘vassal state’ (a hugely pejorative term!) to the EU difficult to understand. I find the concept of EU institutions, especially the Parliament, accepting anywhere having the status of a ‘vassal state’ hard to conceive. Is Canada a vassal state of the EU – are EFTA countries vassal states of the EU? Care to elaborate?

Thepnr

I fail to see how the SNP standing candidates in English constituencies could help further the Independence cause.

I could see them winning votes in certain areas and with particular types of voter. The type of voter an SNP candidate is likely to attract is highly unlikely to be a genuine Tory type and much more likely a Liberal/Labour/Green voter currently.

Any votes gained in England by the SNP would come at the expense of these parties and might actually lead to more Tories being elected to Westminster and a bigger majority for them. I can’t see any prospect of the SNP winning even one seat, more likely a lot of lost deposits costing them money plus what they would have to spend to advertise their new candidates.

This for me would be far from ideal and also any chance of a coalition in a hung parliament between the SNP and anyone except the Tories is greatly reduced.

For these reasons it’s not something I see any benefit in doing.

Bill not Ben

Robert Peffers

Just had to give you a mention by name, not all wars are in europe maybe you have not noticed what’s going on in Syria, maybe your so busy writing all the statistics down for us that you don’t have time for anything else, i personally just scroll by long winded mind numbing posts like yours, so do me and others a favour, when i post you can just keep silent, you and the Mac seem to be a double act of disrespect and i am sure other people on wings do not want this kind of thing, so from now on, i will not react to your stupid comments about me, cause to be quite honest, your boring with your book length posts, and i am sure quite a few here silently agree with me.

Sorry Mr Rev, i will just ignore the people who get personal, respect for another person is important, you might not agree with me, but calling me an idiot and saying i write pish is not the way to get respect back, so i will just say sorry for going down to their level of debate, it will not happen again, i am a very nice person really, but i let my standards slip a bit when replying to certain people, who will not be named in the future.

Bill not Ben

Robert Peffers

Your a windbag, and a disrespectful one at that, do not reply to my posts there’s a good chap.
I can never understand, why a person like you takes the time to tell me i write pish, is your sorry little life so boring, hardly anyone replies to your posts, awww diddums are you lonely

Bill not Ben

Hamish 100

Does your name refer to your haircut, stick to the day job, cause comedy is certainly not your forte

I will ignore the disrespectful people here, its getting tedious now, i hope they ignore me and i will do as i have been doing until they started their pointless crap, ignore them

Robert J. Sutherland

Ian Brotherhood @ 16:23,

I finally got round to reading that article in Bella, Ian, and I can fairy easily dissect what it was that I anyway reacted against.

It starts off fairly enough by positing various dilemmas that we have all well recognised, but it starts running aground as soon as it gets to Corbyn.

The very visible underlying assumption is that indy was about not much more than a rebellion against austerity and now Corbyn the Hero has changed everything.

To cite just one example, in 2014 Yes had a massive hearing inside the trade union movement. Could we be sure of the same today?

Well, I don’t know what circles Shafi and Jamieson moved in back then, but I never saw any visible signs of support from trade unions either then or now.

Their self-righteous leftist exceptionalism is transparent. Whereas it’s not at all clear that their hero is actually in the ascendancy in England, let alone Scotland. Brexit alone (never mind other issues such as Trident) seems to be exposing his hypocrisy, indecision and political cowardice very easily.

Their class-warrior arrogance continues unabated though with a trivial dismissal of the case for arguing maximal continuity as a way of winning over likely converts and continues with a neo-Marxist snipe:

underlying this is the sense that the SNP does not have a theory of the political crisis, and simply responds to events.

Oh, never mind independence, we’ve got to have some Great Political Theory.

Apparently the SNP’s crimes are to “pit movements against each other” (something that the Bella crew know quite a lot about) and to pursue independence in alliance “only” with the wider yes movement, whereas in the authors’ eyes the “solution” is to take lots and lots of time to build alliances with leftists down south.

Jeez. As if Corbyn and his English radicals have any interest whatever in supporting our independence! How stupid can you get?

No wonder any true indy supporter could get quite agitated reading this guff transparent pitch for watered-down leftist neo-Unionism.

Stephen McKenzie

Bill not Ben :8:58

Why pick on Robert Peffers for accusing of you of “writing pish” when it’s so obvious to all.

Kindest regards

Robert J. Sutherland

me @ 21:11,

That should of course be “fairly easily”.

It’s not me that’s away with the fairies (I hope)!

scottieDog

“finally got round to reading that article in Bella, Ian, and I can fairy easily dissect what it was that I anyway reacted against.”

Just been reading it. Quite lazy journalism which is a pity.

Fails to talk about the GE result for the SNP maybe being down to the fact that they actally played down indy and didn’t get the vote out.

Corbyn described as anti war – but failure to mention hes pro nuke and the fact that he should be miles ahead in the polls.

Liz g

Steven McKenzie @ 9.12
Well said…

Robert J. Sutherland

heedtracker @ 18:47,

So the Great McKenna writes:

Mr Leonard, though, will have been buoyed by […] ending the SNP’s foolish Offensive Behaviour at Football legislation. These are the building bricks of authentic socialism

Whit? It seems that when McKenna writes for The Herald he can’t help but occasionally lose his marbles and write delusional clap-trap like this. What a great parliamentary triumph that was. Once upon a time his pals were in power and they aspired to strive harder to tackle the cancer in our midst that is sectarianism. Now they depend on it to get elected!

“Authentic socialism” bollocks. Leonard whatsisname is a NorthBritLab patsy who is even less memorable than his hypocritical puppetmaster Corbyn, and won’t do any more for their Northern Accounting Unit than the hapless Murph (or any of the others) did.

Better to realise that right now than waste another generation or two finding out the hard way, as we had to do.

Liz Rannoch

B’n’B

I don’t normally do this but back off, you nasty, bullying drop of termite crap. How can you be so low and so vile?

I’ll let you get back to nodding to yourself in complete agreement about how right you always are.

Liz g

Robert J Sutherland @ 9.11
That’s exactly how I read that article too.
I was also thinking that it doesn’t address the asset striping that’s been going on since 2014.
Westminster either try to rule it or wreck it….and we don’t have 10+ year’s to play nice.
Especially when the constraints of EU membership are removed.

Liz g

Liz Rannoch @ 9.38
Mibbi ye should consider doing it more often Liz…
Ye do,do,it,really well.

jfngw

@Robert J. Sutherland

I wouldn’t depend on those like McKenna to progress the independence cause, he’s another ‘only on my terms’ type of supporter. Could easily flip back to unionist if he thought that Corbyn would bring his Utopian dream.

On another topic I see TSTV is to broadcast Holyrood FMQ’s live, if only they had the budget to present a unbiased post FMQ’s analysis with commentators not from the MSM.

Tinto Chiel

@Robert J Sutherland: long ago I decided Mr McKenna will write whatever is required, depending on which paper he’s writing for.

For all he has written in the past very lucrative years, I struggle to remember a single example of a kind word for the SG/SNP.

He’s basically hard-core BLiS______d with an anti-secular twist.

Robert J. Sutherland

Liz g @ 21:39,

That last sentence of yours is especially apposite, Liz.

What trollster BnB and the batsh*t mental Eurohaters who regularly get all those green-ink letters in The National fail to realise is that for 40-odd years the EU, for all its evident faults, has actually been our faithful servant and protector within the UK. It has given us funding that we would never have received from London on its own, for example.

Its management of shared resources has attracted a lot of hate propaganda, but the truth is that it has been respectful of us within the rules. Who can say that with any confidence after a powergrab by London? A UKGov that even now is signalling that it will happily trade off fishing rights with the EU27 for other interests of importance to England alone.

Once the UKGov get through Brexit, they will turn their undivided attention on us with a vengeance. We just can’t afford to wait.

Dr Jim

Trolls are such gutless snivelling lonely little cowards aren’t they? they know they’re not welcome but keep going because they think they’re protected by the internet (you’re not yknow)

In real life folk would walk away from them or the room would empty of decent people or somebody would slap them for interfering in other normal peoples conversations but because of the Internet here they are

Maybe it’s a sexual thing for them, Eeeow mingin!

galamcennalath

So Kezia Dugdale has broken ranks and wants to stay in the European single market.

Well, she knows exactly how to achieve that! Scotland can choose its own path. Are you up for it Kezia?

link to archive.is

Brian Powell

“These are the building bricks of authentic socialism”, they’ve only had a hundred years or more to get it right.

I can see desperate people in England voting Labour, then Corbyn et al pottering around with trying to nationalise industries they have no money to nationalise while the raging destruction of Brexit swirls all around.

I think people don’t yet understand it isn’t just the financial cost Brexit that will hit, all the benefits that young Europeans have will be lost to the young in England.

dakk

@ Bill not Ben

It’s neither Bill nor Ben.

It’s definitely Dick.

A blatantly obvious British Nationalist one at that.

Liz Rannoch

Liz G @ 9.45

Ah thank you Liz.

I don’t comment a lot on here, but I get sick of the thread wreckers on here. When it commented about Robert Peffers like that I got angry. Our son was badly bullied due to Aspergers. Political differences are one thing but when it gets personal that’s a red line as far as I’m concerned.

heedtracker

Robert J. Sutherland

Hard to argue with that. He’s a tory, hates real change like a true blue or red tory yoon can and that’s it really.

UK hackdom’s real power is just not telling us what’s actually going on, in catchy sound bites.

Its now 2018, these vile yoons just come across as old and desperate tories, absolutely determined to stop Scots building a Norway 2.0 and worse, Leaving England behind.

Its that simple.

They shit their UKOK kecks at just the thought of a thriving Scotland and an England in Brexit decline.

That’s not how England First brainwashing has worked throughout our lifetimes. Scotland a crappy UK region, they need England, its England only that knows the way.

The Welsh get much the same treatment but nothing is written in stone, future of Scotland or England wise.

Frankie Boyle
@frankieboyle

Amusing that Conservatives who fought bitterly against Scottish Independence could well allow a united Ireland with a shrug so that their mates can get rid of regulations that keep shit out of beef burgers

10:19 am · 28 Feb 2018

K1

Wasting our time replying to that thick dip of bullshit. Clearly some sort of comprehension difficulties and a nasty piece of work to boot. Though there are clues that he’s been on before under a different name?

TheWasp

Do you mean Captain Colon Alexander? When he/she starts with the being disrespected shite it kind of gives the game away, as that line was used to me a few times when I called him/her a fud

Bob Mack

@K1,

Agreed. Two different sets of vocabulary and two writing styles under one name

Robert J. Sutherland

K1 @ 22:20,

Had the same impression. It always ends up as “me, me, me”.

John Young

O/T C’mon folk vote for Nicola and Mhari by clicking on the box on the right of their names. link to news.sky.com

galamcennalath

The wreckers who come on here to talk pish to provoke a response are becoming far too successful.

Notice how they usually appear one at a time, rarely two, but never more.

The objective is clearly to disrupt, not to make serious points or to have discussion. They don’t need numbers to disrupt. They don’t want to talk to each other.

Dr Jim

Just watched Ian Paisley Jr in HOC devolution committee trying to put pressure on Karen Bradley (the new Tory Sec of State) to engage more with America to put pressure on the Republic and convince them that staying with the EU will cost them 1 and a half billion Euro more after the UK leaves EU

In her reply Karen Bradley had a slip of the tongue when she referred to *The Catholics* then quickly rephrased to *The Nationalists*

None of this is going to end well if the Tories both red and blue are allowed to con the public with the shit they’re up to

JLT

stewartb says

I find your concept of a deal in present circumstances that makes the UK or any part of the UK a ‘vassal state’ (a hugely pejorative term!) to the EU difficult to understand.

Hi Stuart. Simply this. If the UK strikes a deal with the EU, it will be one where the EU will set all the terms of how trade will be conducted. Having gone from being an equal partner within the richest trading entity in the world, Brexit will turn the UK more into a vassal state where we will no longer have a say, let alone a voice that will influence the corridors within Brussels. New laws passed in the EU Parliament will have to be accepted by Westminster as well as the law courts here in the UK, and there won’t be anything we can do to really stop it. To refuse would see trade affected by sanctions imposed on us by not only the EU, but also the EU’s overseas partners.

That is what I mean by ‘vassal state’. The idea that we are ‘taking back control’ is an absolute myth. Some may debate that we never had control while in the EU, but at least we had a big voice and a vote. After Brexit, that voice will be much diminished, if not silent, while the vote will be taken away within the negotiating rooms of Brussels. Westminster and to a degree, Whitehall, along with the courts within these lands will somehow have to accept the brave new world that will be imposed on us where we are nothing more than a servant rather than having been an equal.

Liz g

Robert J Sutherland @ 9.58
Well yes Robert… The History of our relationship with the EU is as far as we are allowed to know ( pre internet especially) a relatively fair one.

I take the view that we must look to the history of thing’s to learn…..otherwise where else could we look?
And our history of being in — Treaty Arrangements — with the EU,while no perfect, seems to me to be,”no bad”
Westminster on the other hand!!

A pet “Theory” of mine to explain why Westminster is doing all this is….

The UK needed to join the EU to stay afloat…. Or so they thought….
They hadn’t really realised at that point the value of the N Sea.

When the penny finally dropped, they worked out that they didn’t need the EU after all.

They couldn’t have an oil fund and plead poverty about their contributions to the EU.
It wasn’t just us that they were hiding it from.

Now they can no longer hide it,because Norway ( who didn’t join),are thriving….so the group who felt that the oil rich UK was being “ham strung” by the EU,and not getting its proper place on the world stage like Saudi, was allowed to flourish.

I suspect that Westminster,want to be exactly that, Europe’s largest oil producer,but on their own term’s.
They couldn’t keep the wealth under wraps much longer…
And Westminster don’t share!

I could be wrong… Of course I could…. But is half the world no fighting over the stuff??and we are allegedly floating in it….time will tell.

Ian Brotherhood

@RJS (9.11) –

Good to hear your thoughts on that piece.

I would love to see Shafi, Boyd (or anyone of their choosing) in an open public debate against someone like Peter Bell, Paul Kavanagh, perhaps even Lesley Riddoch?

In a healthy democracy such a debate would be possible. But we don’t have one, so it isn’t.

Perhaps invitations could be sent and, depending on the response, Independence Live could stage it?

Just a thought, but I’m pretty sure we could predict the response…

🙁

yesindyref2

@Hamish
I think 2 x 1/2s make a’hole in his case.

K1

‘Agreed. Two different sets of vocabulary and two writing styles under one name

Ayep Bob.

Seriously there cannot two different people who ‘speak’ in the exact same way…even all the ‘points’ are familiar.

But what’s really sad and disturbing is that having been rumbled before he/she keeps coming back on under a different guise…even the grammar has all the hallmarks of someone ‘trying’ to come across as someone else?

And the personal attack on Robert…hmmm…now why would a brand new commenter think it’s okay to come on here and disrespect Robert Peffers immediately?

Street Andrew

Ace !

Effijy

Nicola is in the lead on the sky news poll
On most influential UK woman.

Will sky either cheat and manufacture Queenie votes,
Or just bury Nicola’s victory under another snow story??

I’d like to know who at Sky chose the pictures for each candidate?
Every picture used, other than Nicola’s and Mairhi’s were posed for,
While theirs has been taken mid sentence to give an un natural expression.

Psychological propagand like this was also used in 1930’s Germany.
Same game, different facists!

chasanderson200

O/T
Details of WINGERS NIGHT OUT social gathering in Otters Head, Woodside, Glenrothes, on 7TH April now posted over on off topic page. Transport and accommodation details also included.

call me dave

Jings! The Sun poll link just above.

Queenie was well ahead a wee while ago but…very quickly since

Sturgeon 5K votes and Queenie with 4K votes shurley shome mistake! 🙂

————————————————————-
Remember that BBC thing, vote on the most important battle in ‘British’ history when Bannockburn shot to the top of the list overnight…what happened to the programme the was supposed to be made on it? Nothing!

@Liz Rannoch

Well done 🙂

Cactus

Partying it up n down wae Dixie n people.

Everyone’s invited to a…

Free Scotland.

Sex party.

XXX.

chasanderson200

O/T
Latest details of WINGERS SOCIAL GET TOGETHER now posted on off topic page. The wingdingaling is being held in the Otters Head in Woodside Glenrothes on 7th April with lots of stuff going on. Hope to see you there.

boris

UK government and Oil Monoliths and their lies exposed. Scots for goodness sake take heed. Next time vote “Yes” and get the revenues back

link to caltonjock.com

stewartb

JLT @ 10:36 pm

Re- references to a ‘vassal state’, many thanks for your response. Is there not some conflation of issues here?

One the one hand, Canada and South Korea which have substantive Free Trade Agreements with the EU – and have to conform along with the EU to negotiated rules and regulations (which the EU MAY have had the upper hand in framing) – are hardly ‘vassal states’.

Norway and the other EFTA countries choose to accept their status in the EEA – essentially rule-takers – as part of a national cost/benefit assessment which they can at any time opt out of. I don’t regard Norway as a ‘vassal state’.

Out of the EU, the UK wants to establish a new trading relationship with the EU – but it will not be better than the one it has at present. But as with Canada and South Korea, it will not be a ‘vassal state’.

And the UK will no doubt wish to form free trade agreements with most of the very many countries it already enjoys VIA its EU membership – it remains to be seen whether these new relationships are better (and better for whom in the UK) that the UK has already. Does this make any of them vassal states?

And the UK may wish to conclude a FTA with countries that the EU does not presently have such an Agreement. Whether it will get a better deal (and for whom in the UK) than it could get by negotiating as part of the EU also remains to be seen.

The UK may well end up strictly with more ‘control’ but to what net benefit? The only vassal NATION I spot in all of this is Scotland!

heedtracker

John Young says:
3 March, 2018 at 10:30 pm
O/T C’mon folk vote for Nicola and Mhari by clicking on the box on the right of their names

Prime Minister May-449 votes

First Minister Sturgeon-54,000 votes

Sounds about right then:D

Tbf, the Maybot is more influential than JK Trolling, 441 votes.

Hamish100

yesindyref2 says:
3 March, 2018 at 10:39 pm
@Hamish
I think 2 x 1/2s make a’hole in his case

A big hole or a wee one?

Liz Rannoch

call me dave @ 11.09

Thanks, calming down a bit now! My more usual posts are like:

Remember everybody – Nicola on Peston on Sunday at 10.00am STV – reply to maybot’s speech.

JLT

@stewartb

LOL …okay. Rather than ‘vassal’, I’ll go with ‘client state’.

Still believe that the UK will be the lesser negotiator when it comes to striking details. How that goes down with Brexiteers …well, that’s their problem.

Right …am off to bed. Enjoy the rest of your evening Stewart. Cheers again

Bob Mack

Voted for Nicola. They can’t even get her name right.It is spelled STURGOEN. Swedish ?

Robert Louis

Dr Jim at 1034pm,

That’ll be the Ian Paisly jar. who campaigned hard for brexit, shouts loudly that Ulster is British, then tells his voters that due to brexit, they should all make sure they get their IRISH passport from Dublin.

Aye, that’s the DUP for you. British forever, but happy to take their free Irish (EU) passport.

Ian Brotherhood

@call me dave (11.09) –

FFS!

Well remembered there.

That was a dramatic episode right enough, and it’ll still be in the record, no denying it.

😉

Robert J. Sutherland

Liz g @ 22:37,

It’s interesting to speculate on the motivations of the “Britain-Firsters”.

I reckon that May’s personal “bee-in-bonnet” stems from her time in the Home Office and an intense dislike of the ECJ. We have somewhat forgotten that she is a control freak with a penchant for state snooping on an industrial scale, and wants to be able to eject anyone at any time on a whim. (Look at what the Home Office are about these days – a new Highland Clearances.)

I have a very strong suspicion though that the main motive for the hardline Tory EUseps – and one that is got 180-degrees about face by the ultra-leftists, trolls and letter-writers – is that what they are most afraid of is the steadily-increasing financial regulation coming down the pike from Brussels.

They want to continue with their clever tax dodging schemes and the EU is beginning to seriously cramp their style. So much for their myth of the EU as the capitalists’ paradise. That’s what the BritNats want – a Brexitannia free to trash all the personal rights and environmental protection stuff and revert to raw freebooting capitalism and full-on financial jiggery-pokery.

Silently supported by ultra-leftists like Corbyn. Ironic or what?!

Dave McEwan Hill

John Young at 10.30

Can’t find anyway to vote on this.

Thepnr

@Dave McEwan Hill

Click on the button with number of votes next to the persons name on the first line of each woman.

Scot Finlayson

Has the darling of the far right beer kellers The Ruthsfuhrer got many votes ?

Thepnr

Hahaha First Minister now has 40% more votes than the Queen, 400% more votes than Thatcher and 1600% more votes than Theresa May 🙂

Thepnr

To save you looking in case you might have missed it, vote here.

link to news.sky.com

TJenny

Scot F – the poll’s on Sky’s website. There are 100 women listed. The truthless one isn’t on it.

So far oor Nic’s at #1 with 8.7k votes. Mhairi Black’s at #4 with 2.4k votes, Thatcher’s just behind with 2.3k votes. Maybot is #13 with 561, behind Jakey Rowling at # 11 with 608 votes. Not all listed are politicians though.

yesindyref2

Sturgeon at 9k votes, queen at 6.4k.

I put a random one in for Fanny Cradock as well just for the fun of it!

Dr Jim

I hope the FM straps on her tomb raider guns tomorrow and throws down on the May gang

Ghillie

Thank you Robert Peffers @ 11.12am

For reminding me that the EU was originally set up to help prevent us ever falling into war again =)

This is easily forgotten when we are focused on trade deals and rules and laws.

All the more reason to keep the faith.

Thinking of you =)

Ghillie

Popped in my vote for oor Nicola =)

Who else ?!!

Ghillie

Chris, yet another brilliant cartoon =)

Please please let these become posters!!

Love that Hamish’s pals have made an appearance 🙂

sassenach

What’s the betting that the ‘poll’ will have been doctored before Wednesday!!?

Morgatron

Wow. That was difficult who to vote for. Tits Mone wasn’t on the list so really disapointed , why no hard hitters and thinkers Sky?.Thought about lending my vote to Baroness Blood, cause she looked like Ronnie Barker. Then i spotted Fanny Craddock , a 1950/60s porn star her name is just not right but really loved her hat.

Fred

Anent the top 100 women, searched in vain for Arlene Foster & Ruth Davidson!

Will still take the National on Saturdays, supposing they include a copy of the Scottish Field. Good to see William Hill has Scottish Independence odds-on favourite! That’ll disappoint some clowns on Wings!

auld highlander

Sensible wasn’t on the list.

galamcennalath

Watched a wee bit of May on Marr. Gave up. What is this fiasco in aid of?

They’ve insisted they want to cherry pick all along and that won’t happen.

I read the other day it all amounts to ‘they want the extensive rights of a Norway deal with the few responsibilities of a Canada deal.’ To safeguard the integrity of the single market that is exactly what they will never get.

So, when will they openly except that?

My suspicion is, it’s all a ruse to blame the unreasonable foreigners when it turns sour.

Hamish100

The Bbc Marr programme. I hope the Snp and MSP’s watched the Irish deputy Prime Minister deal with Marr’s interview technique. Firm and polite and the best bit for me was where he told Marr not to quote him over something he didn’t say. Attack is the best form of defence. Interestingly should Stranraer area set up a “tourist or visitor tax for goods and people” to get some revenue from Ireland and to level up the playing field. Thereby stopping the DUP supporters benefitting from special trade options. What the Tories ain’t proposing is all nations and principalities are equal.

heedtracker

Watched a wee bit of May on Marr. Gave up. What is this fiasco in aid of?

Brainwashing England to enjoy Brexit Means Brexit, not actually meaning Brexit Means Brexit at all.

Astonishing beeb gimp party political broadcast on behalf of the Conservative Party like this one, in a one party state.

link to bbc.co.uk

Brian Powell

Where is the link to vote on the Sky poll? Doesn’t seem to be on the page where the article is.

Clootie

…after watching Marr this morning I’m thinking of going beyond Irish Citizenship and actually moving to Ireland.

The Irish deputy PM represents the type of confidence in your nation that should be the norm. Unfortunately we have far too many ScotsBUTs. I don’t think I can finish my days under Westminster rule!

Les Wilson

Came across something that needs explaining this morning.
ITV, looking online at some interviews. Then I noticed News
in your area list, so assuming I could get the latest Scottish news.

There are all english regional areas, but no Scottish listing,
what is there is ” The border region” on looking at that I find it talks about things in Scottish Borders and Cumbria in the same breath.

This is not good enough, omitting “Scotland” is outrageous.
Really sick of the english anti Scottish propaganda, which is all this can be.

Robert Peffers

@JLT says: 3 March, 2018 at 8:10 pm:

Hi Robert. Possibly I am, but I can’t help feeling that there’s more going on with the EU’s intentions over Northern Ireland than it appears.

Actually you are making, in a slightly different for, the same points I make but you interpret them differently.

For example you detail De Gaul’s motives as his personal objections to the UK as being the UK as the USA’s voice at the EU’s internal upper table. Whereas I see it as De Gaul representing the entire EU’s view of the UK as a potential representative of the USA sitting at the EU top table.

The fact is that, on an international basis, Westminster, (all Westminster unionist parties), are as one with the USA. Their viewpoint is as one with the USA to the extent that the Tories are obviously aiming to sell off what remains of the UK’s family silver to the Yanks. Labour and LibDems are aiding and abetting them in that venture.

The USA, a country that fought a war of independence against Westminster, (and won it), are no friends of Wales, Ireland and Scotland or indeed other than the wealthy in the UK who have more than doubled their personal wealth while subjecting the rest of us to Austerity Measures. They cannot, “All be in this together”, while there are homeless on our streets, working families needing food banks and benefit seekers being sanctioned.

My entire viewpoint is based upon the fact that the EU said at the very start that the UK would have to accept all the EU’s basic freedoms or there could be no deal. The UK are, even yet, ignoring that fact but the EU hasn’t changed its stance since day one. The very fact that these numpties see the United Kingdom’s formal request to leave the EU as the, “BRITISH EXIT”, when sane people can see that it is only the United Kingdom part of Britain that will leave demonstrates their blinkered and short sighted view of the situation. These people are delusional – the United Kingdom is a two partner KINGDOM – yet they see it as a unified single country. A two partner Kingdom yet they have split it up as four countries but with only three of those countries with an elected as such parliament of their country and they ignore the fact that Scotland is not just a country but the Kingdom of England’s only partner in a UNITED KINGDOM. Thus Westminster has made itself the, unelected as such, Parliament of the country of England and it uses EVEL to enforce the Country of England’s Parliament’s will upon the three subservient countries under Westminster control. Its all a confidence trick but these people believe they are right.

The EU and the SG/SNP know differently and neither has changed their views since even before the UK wanted out.

Luigi

Aye Robert,

It is a confidence trick, but until the people in Scotland wake up to this fact (or more than 50% do, at least), then this constitutional confidence trick will continue to work quite well for them.

There’s nought we can do until the people wake up (or we wake them up). 🙂

Luigi

You do realise that if when the Scottish Continuity Bill is challenged in the Supreme Court, that a huge issue is going to be made of that fact that the 55% NO vote in 2014 indicates that a majority of Scotland accepted the current constitutional con arrangement as acceptable? Difficult to argue otherwise, I’m afraid. 🙁

Fergus Green

@Brian Poell 10.20 – here’s the link:

link to news.sky.com

Nicola now 5.8 k ahead of Brenda W and Mhairi Black has pushed Diana into 4th place.

Richard MacKinnon

I don’t have a clue what the cartoons about? Who is the guy hanging from his feet?