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The Tory Calculator

Posted on March 29, 2017 by

The figure below is my own, but it’s also remarkably typical:

Click the pic to get yours.

(It actually feels like a lot more than that – quite possibly because I have, in fact, not for one minute of my entire life been represented by a government at Westminster – or anywhere else, come to that – that I voted for, unless you count the token presence of the Lib Dems in the 2010-15 coalition. Which I don’t, because they immediately betrayed every policy and principle for which I’d voted for them in the first place.)

For Scotland, democracy in the UK simply doesn’t work.

The 57% figure also matches that of the average Wings Over Scotland reader, going by the age data on our longstanding reader survey. And if you measure it at 10-year intervals back to WW2, the average also comes out at 57%:

Born in 2007: 67%
1997: 36%
1987: 57%
1977: 62%
1967: 57%
1957: 60%
1947: 59%

Average: 57%

That number is, of course, in reality an understatement, because we definitely have at least three more years of Tory rule to come, and realistically at least eight. Assuming I live until 2025, my figure will by then be 63%. The average also increases if you go back further than WW2.

The data, then, is pretty unarguable. The UK is a fundamentally Conservative country that occasionally elects a Labour government for a little variety. Indeed, few people realise that Labour only formed the UK government for 22 years in the entire 20th century, and only 19 of those with a working majority.

(And of course, by far the longest period of “Labour” rule in the last 100 years was an administration which bore little resemblance to the radical socialist workers’ party that Labour was formed to be.)

Scotland, on the other hand, has resolutely resisted the Tories for almost the entire period. The Conservatives have won just five elections in Scotland in the last 100 years, and none at all in the last 60 years.

That resistance has had no effect. Scottish MPs have only affected the colour of the government for around two years of that century, and as such have been powerless to prevent Tory legislation from being passed on Scotland, even when the Tories didn’t have a single MP in the country.

This isn’t new information, of course. We’ve always known that to reject independence was to submit Scots to Tory rule for most of the time. We just thought that on the day Britain sets out on a path that will make it more Conservative (and more English) than ever before, you might like a way to bring that fact a little closer to home.

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  1. 29 03 17 12:56

    The Tory Calculator | speymouth

  2. 07 04 17 21:29

    Canny , No Cannae -Things I won't be doing in an Independent Scotland -

417 to “The Tory Calculator”

  1. Bob Mack says:

    I am horrified to find I have lived under Tory governments for 63% of my life having never ever voted Tory.

    It rather hammers home the point that England and her inhabitants call the tune to which we all dance

  2. X_Sticks says:


    I had to scroll a depressingly long way back on the dropdown.

    Don’t know about the rest of you but I’m not having a good day. Brexit is nearly as bad as 19 Sept.

    I hope we can wake enough of Scotland up to get us out of this horrendous situation. I’m not altogether optimistic though. Seems to be too many ill-informed morons in our country.

  3. Wgoodf says:

    Having never voted Labour either 61% Tory is only part of my problem.

  4. AAD says:

    I can (just) remember a time when Scotland voted Tory, although I only ever knew one woman who admitted voting Tory. I don’t recall that whatever colour of government Scotland voted for meant that life was any easier for the people I grew up around.

    Ms May, via her mouthpieces in Scotland, David Mundell is threatening to ignore the Scottish Parliament and not allow an Independence referendum to be held. How much more will opponents of Independence for Scotland swallow?

  5. Undeadshuan says:

    When it comes to second independence referendum campaign, this should be one of the main points in addition to EU/efta.

    And of course highlighting we are at the brink of a new oil boom.

  6. Bob Mack says:


    Let’s be clear about this. There are more than enough people who vote for independence. I know them in my village. I talk to them daily ,and they proudly fly their Saltires from flagpoles and shed roofs.
    The media may try to distort that image to keep the United Kingdom together but the fact remains that though those who want independence are choked of publicity in preference to Unionist views, we are not going away any time soon.

    This fight is in round 2. I am prepared for at least 12 rounds. In fact for however long it takes.

  7. Ian McCubbin says:

    Time for change in this day after section 30 order sent to 10 Downing Street.
    On the brink of article 50 being sent to EU I am in no doubt Scotland is ready to go alone and form our own society of mixed politics with consensus government.
    The road is still a difficult one, are we pushed to UDI as T May has said now is not the time on Independence Referendum. A nation who wishes to sucede can not legally be blocked by the larger state .
    If this happens there are a number of courses of action unilateral UDI. THIS I think the least likely of actions. A disbanding parliament of holyrood and holding an independence election.
    Or taking an envoy of FM and key MPs to U.N. council and European countries to seek a group to put pressure on UK Gov to let Scotland be independent.
    It will be interesting to see what Nicola Sturgeon does after the Easter recess.
    I am sure Theresa May will not have replied to the section 30 order and has no intention of in he next year.

  8. Desimond says: it really all its cracked up to be?

    Nice to see Channel 4 wheeling out Alasdair Darling last night who said “Its not the country it used to be!”..Correct Alasdair, we have unplugged from The Matrix.

    It also has me thinking back to last nights Twitter when Anas Sarwar played the “Its like when the SNP brought down the Labour Govt and allowed the Torys and Thatcher in!”

    He duly got ripped a new one and no mistake by loads of people, including many Labour\former Labour members.

  9. Black Joan says:

    Grim and depressing indeed.

    Agree with you X_Sticks, Brexit day feels awful. Not quite as awful as 19 September, but almost.

  10. Johnny says:

    Messed around the with calculation tool last night. There may be higher figures but the highest I found was 65% for those born in 1979 and 1980.

    I was born in the latter year, boo hoo!

    In truth, though, every year I looked at could be summed up thus: ‘you get Tory governments you didn’t vote for during the majority of your life’.

  11. Robert Graham says:

    A truly sad reminder of the situation we are for the time being in.
    Another wee gem is the UK National debt clock currently standing at an eye watering .
    £1.837.386.919.202 forget the last six digits because it is increasing by £5.170 a second .
    And the brexic deadline clock stands at
    730 days 12 hrs 34 min

  12. Mike says:

    If you include the Red Tory regimes under Blair and Brown then it gets even more awful.

    Scotland voted for a socialist Labour and got Tory labour instead.

  13. jfngw says:

    I did 2 calculations, one from when I was born and the other from the first election I could vote, 62% & 58%. The 58% one is actually worse as the Tories had 0% majority support during this period.

    It would seem for Tories like Davidson a mandate is only when it is to their advantage.

  14. nairnkev says:

    In the name of the invisible man that lives in the Sky, I’m at 60%.
    The other day I was having this very discussion with my 19 y/o son, who has recently started muttering aloud “effing tories”, I pointed out that most of his life he’s been lucky he’s had Labour governments, (thanks to this post I’ve found out he’s only at 36%), anyhow he looked at me with a confused expression and snapped back “Labour! they’re just red Tories!” I nearly choked on my dinner laughing, the conversation ended, I mean… what more could I say?.

  15. Shamur says:

    My main argument in seeking independence has always been that we don’t get the party we vote for.

    For this next campaign we need to remain positive and talk like winners. Let WM know that we will never stop the fight.

  16. schrodingers cat says:

    i have never voted for a unionist party ever, so that’s 100% of my life time I have not been represented by a government at Westminster that I voted for

  17. Dramfineday says:

    63%, how depressing. Just as bad as seeing the great bearded socialist republican getting his elevation. Grrrrr.

  18. Breeks says:

    If you smooth over the distinction of the EEC and EU, and say quite reasonably the EU started in 1958, it has had to deal with UK tories for 60% of its lifetime.

    But not any more…

  19. Smallaxe says:

    X_Sticks says:
    29 March, 2017 at 11:06 am

    “I had to scroll a depressingly long way back on the dropdown.”

    I had to scroll a bit further back to 67%. I’m sorry that you’re having a bad day, my Friend, but let’s not call other Scot’s morons, uninformed is a more friendly name for them and we want as many as possible to become informed and realise the truth that has been held from them and to reconsider their position.

    I hope you get back to your usual positive self soon.

    Peace Always
    This includes Peace of Mind and Spirit. I wish you well always.

  20. Ken500 says:

    That’s why the unionists can treat Scotland with total comtempt. Unionists Parties do not need Scottish votes. Greens collude with unionists against the SNP. The majority Party in Scotland since Devolution for good reasons. The only ones to stand up for Scotland ever since 1928 and before.

    Limited Democracy only came to Scotland with Devolution. The corrupt Unionists at Westminster could do anything to Scotland and get away with it. Illegally and criminally cheating and lying and keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Under the terms of the Act of Union Scotland was supposed to be treated equally. It was not. Revenues were secretly and illegally taken and policies which the majority in Scotland did not support were imposed on the society and the people. The Westminster charlatans just got away with their criminal behaviour time and time again. No one in Scotland could hold them to account.

    No more.

  21. Greannach says:

    62% of my life lived under UK Tory Governments.
    0% of my life lived under a UK government I voted for.

  22. Vestas says:

    OT but I know we all just LOVE Johnston Press so I thought I’d share :

    “The publisher of titles including the Scotsman, Yorkshire Post and the national i has reported a £300m pre-tax loss due to a tough advertising market and writing down the value of its 200-plus local newspapers….

    …The company said the non-cash writedown related to a string of acquisitions in the early part of this century, such as the Scotsman newspaper group, which was acquired for £160m in 2005. The writedown reduces the value of Johnston Press’s publishing titles to £120m…

    …total ad revenues fell 15.4%, with print ads dropping 17.1% and digital advertising falling 8.5%….

    …The company’s net debt increased from £179m to £203.9m last year. The drop in profits means that the company’s ratio of net debt is more than four times profits, a key metric watched by the City.”

    Not really surprising as they have the fuckwit who cost the BBC £200million for their “Digital Strategy” which failed. Getting sacked from the BBC is also quite an achievement at his level.

    Ashley Highfield is his name & I’d like you all to raise a glass to him.

    AFAICT he’s cost the yoon media somewhere north of £400million by being utterly useless.

    Good man Ashley, keep it up 🙂

  23. Pictish Freak says:

    That stinks. Badly.

    I wonder how NI compares.

  24. One_Scot says:

    I wonder if the man in the photo proudly carrying his beliefs aloft was thinking, you know what, I would not be surprised if I end up looking like that fud below me.

  25. Robert Roddick says:

    I’m already at 62% the future doesn’t bear thinking about.
    Independence Now!

  26. Iain More says:

    Are you counting the Callaghan, Blair and Broon years as Tory years because they not only felt like Tory years bt in policy they were effin Tories.

  27. Ken500 says:

    The joke about the only Tory in the village. Repeated by the only Tory in the village but even some Tories support Independence. In the secrecy of the Ballot box they will vote for Independence. The hypocrisy. The corrupt unionists politicians who the Electorate can’t get rid of although the majority can’t stand the sight of them. They have got the electoral system sewn up. 3rd rate rejects. No wonder they are so smug and self satisfied. Sprouting a load of lying nonsense.

  28. David says:

    I was pondering over the events of yesterday and still find it difficult to understand the acceptance from the unionist parties to the UK Gov possibly overruling the parliament that they are members of.

    This is further compounded by Brexit kicking off ‘based’ on the premise that the EU parliament was continually overruling the UK Government.

    Off to sit in a dark room and find out about getting an Irish passport.

  29. Terrific National today with a historic front page worth keeping

  30. Del says:

    A little OTT, but only a little.
    The BBC website published a story about TM signing the paper yesterday evening. No comments allowed. They have re-published that this morning and it has a couple of hundred comments.
    Meantime they published a story about Holyrood backing a new referendum. Coming on for 3000 comments so far, and many received overnight entirely rabid about Scots, the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. The sorts of comments we’ve come to expect on the Express or Scotsman.
    Project fear continues unabated courtesy of the BBC in allowing comments on this story and not on most others. Up with which we should not have to put.

  31. galamcennalath says:

    Aye, most of us have had a life under ‘foreign’ Tories we had rejected.

    I was glad to see Blair replace the Tories, but I hadn’t voted for him.

    The Feeble Fifty had finished Labour in my mind. They had a mandate to stand up for Scotland, but put their Union first and let Thatcher loose on Scotland. And that came on top of their torpedoing of our 1979 parliament win. Labour can never be forgiven for all that.

    The Tories are what they are, the live down to low expectation.

    Labour, on the other hand, try to keep up moral pretences, and from Blair onwards they were really just Red Tories anyway.

  32. Iain More says:

    I forgot to add that I have been living under Loony Toon Westmidden Govts for 100% of my life none of which I ever voted for.

  33. Pedro says:

    59%. Jeezo.

  34. Ken500 says:

    Not depressed at all. Sad for the majorityin rest of the UK because the Tory deluded them again. Cheated and lied to win a Referenfum, but they voted for it.

    First time being happy in over two years because of the vote in Holyrood. An increased prospect of
    Independence and staying in the EU becoming a reality. Absolutely Ecstatic for the future. A future which never seemed possible, in a lifetime, but the SNP Gov have made it possible. How far Scotland has come to self determination.

    Just have to sit back and watch the Tories destroying themselves as per usual. Rats in a sack. They are like rabbits in the headlights they haven’t got a clue what they are doing, Twice as destructive. The deal with Qatar. The most absolute despot monarchy in the world. Human rights abusers will not be going very far.. Good luck and Good bye.

  35. Phil Robertson says:

    “Scotland, on the other hand, has resolutely resisted the Tories for almost the entire period. The Conservatives have won just five elections in Scotland in the last 100 years, and none at all in the last 60 years.”

    Interesting switch of timescales here. having started talking about “since WW2” you move to the “last 60 years”. That allows you to avoid the fact that the Tories achieved an absolute majority of the votes cast in Scotland in the 1955 general election.

    “quite possibly because I have, in fact, not for one minute of my entire life been represented by a government at Westminster that I voted for”

    A distinction you share with UKIP and BNP supporters. Democracy is not a merry-go-round where everyone “gets a shot”.
    (For those who still don’t know what a majority is, they got more than 50% of the votes cast.)

  36. Bob Mack says:

    I think you will find a majority can actually be attained with much less than 50% of votes cast. Are you Kezia Dug dale perchance?

  37. mumsyhugs says:

    63% 🙁

  38. Dan Huil says:

    Tractors like Darling sicken me to the core. I need a drink.

  39. schrodingers cat says:

    here we go

    eu says
    should Britain seek to negotiate any free trade deals with other countries while it is still an EU member state, there will be no future discussion of a deal with the union.

    there will be no special deal for the City of London “providing UK-based undertakings preferential access to the single market and, or the customs union”.

    Britain should pay all its liabilities “arising from outstanding commitments as well as make provision for off-balance sheet items, contingent liabilities and other financial costs that arise directly as a result of its withdrawal”.

    a future relationship agreement between the European union and the UK “can only be concluded once the United Kingdom has withdrawn from the EU”.

  40. schrodingers cat says:

    so, no trade deal until after brexit

  41. john young says:

    Common Weal the way forward,good/clear/incisive and forward thinking policies,we are a country full of young innovators not hidebound by party agendas and this includes the SNP,let us give our country back to the people not to be confused with “the peepil”,with a country of circa 5.3mil rich in energy/tourism and a host of others we could become a jewel in the crown,cast of the chains of party political dogma and surge forward.

  42. Vestas says:

    I think I see a rerun of the Scotland-UN Committee which forced devolution in the first place, only this time it’ll be Council of Europe driven and MUCH quicker.

    Interesting times.

    I doubt Theresa will have a peaceful Easter 😀

  43. clan rossy says:

    I am a sovereign scot

    from the day i was born and till the day i die
    i will always be a sovereign scot
    i will never accept or be subserviant to any
    uk or english way of life or rule .

    i am a great admirer of many people who post on here
    i,e mr peffers thepnr,smallaxe,nana,proudcybernat,i
    could go on all day about the good people on here
    who post there views on this site.

    but the reality of the matter is our voice the
    scottish parliament our way of life our democracy
    is being torn to shreds by a right wing xenophobic
    fascist tory govt aided and abetted by the lib dumbs
    and the judas labour party .

    i now think it is time to make a stand i now think it
    is time to secede from this pit of hell they call a union
    i really am fearful for the future and my grandchilds
    futures as we all are and i for one will do anything to
    see scotlands right to be recognised as a free independent
    country in this world .

  44. Craig P says:

    57%? For the first time in my life, in 2015 someone I voted for got elected to Westminster. Maybe I would have been delighted 20 years ago but I felt a bit meh about the whole thing. Holyrood is where it is at now.

  45. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Phil – your Scottish history is not very good I am afraid – the Conservatives have never won outright in Scotland in the fifties.

    The Party was the Unionist Party and they were supported by the National Liberal party in 1955.

    So by today Tory logic they never had a right to govern as they did not have a overall majority or mandate.

    Also the electoral system was different too as compared to Holyrood.

    If Holyrood was elected by FPTP, the SNP would now have a 81% to 19% majority.

    Kind of puts it in perspective…

  46. David Wardrope says:

    65%, what do I win? (apart from crippling poverty, lowest life expectancy in UK, nukes, etc.)

  47. Spikethedee says:

    Wow, just looking at the results since I was eligible to vote (1993) and the Tories have had TWO (different) people elected to Westminster from Scotland since then.


    Still, I’m sure they’re working hard for Scotland’s interests…

  48. Valerie says:

    The nightmare begins.

    The Tory calculator is appropriate on today, Black Wednesday. I feel sick, like we have already left the EU, and we are shackled to the ship, we know is named Titanic.

    I know we will keep going, I know we are luckier than any recent generation, with a party of talent in charge of Scotland, but we MUST get away.

    The height of ignorance and stupidity in the piece of theatre around A50, is making me nauseous.

  49. schrodingers cat says:

    the eu
    the cut-off date after which EU nationals coming to the UK lose the automatic right to residency in the UK must not be before 29 March 2019, when the country leaves the EU, or the British government will be breaking EU law.
    boom, Theresa May’s cut-off date as the notification date, just got blown out of the water

  50. schrodingers cat says:

    the phoney war is now over, we now know the eu’s position

    it doesnt look good

  51. Alba woman says:

    I am trying hard not to feel like I am living in a captive nation. What an absolute nerve those Toriestheir Labour and Libdem pals have. Totally unacceptable, undemocratic behaviour.

  52. Nana says:

    60% Deary me

    Hope this cheers you all up a little

    Alex Salmond making TM squirm

  53. Patrick Roden says:

    So let me get this straight:

    The EU is refusing to negotiate a deal with Westminster until After they exit the EU..

    And Westminster say they will refuse to negotiate with the Scottish Government about the referendum until they know the terms of the agreement reached between Westminster and the EU countries?

    So we now have it in black and white that we will be pulled out of Europe against our will, because the Tories have made a pigs ear of the whole of the UK, just to satisfy the rabid right wing branch of their Party and to stave off Ukip?

    Oh Brilliant 🙁

  54. Phydaux says:

    Says it all about the U.K.’s pseudo-democracy… no proportional representation for voters.Effective forms of social control when the rich and powerful can invest resources and energy in censorship and propaganda to maintain the fiction of UK democracy.

    The EU Referendum result in England showed what happens when the elite get together with the mob… ideology, racism and imperialism and the twin mechanisms of fear and false hope, aided and abetted by the major corporations of the mass media.

    They failed to colonise the inside of people’s minds in Scotland and I will never ever consent to th

    e tyrannical authority of Westminster.

    We have always known that Independence has been a long-term struggle.We now need to respond accordingly, organise harder than ever, mobilise more people than ever, knock on more doors than ever and fight like we’ve never fought before.As Peter Bell said, the work that we do is not for ourselves but for the generations that will come after us.And the work we do now stands on the shoulders of the generations that came before.

    A final thought re media bias… seems to me that there will be 2 versions of Brexit negotiations, namely the EU’s explicitly transparent and open one and the UK’s organised lying and distortion of the truth.Given the sovereign people of Scotland’s right to choose in ScotRef and that our consent has to be informed if it is to be meaningful, it is time to change the rules on our right to a free and fair legitimate platform in which to do so.What can we do and what can the Scottish government do to make this happen?

  55. galamcennalath says:

    “Democracy”, ”60 years”, ”100 years”.

    Westminster is a pathetically poor example of democracy by 21stC European standards. The awful FPTP system means governments can be formed representing little more than 35% of voters, and 40% is the norm.

    While other Europeans are used to PR and governments which represent a majority of voters, we are forced to accept elected dictatorships.

    However, guys, it has been worst over the last 100 years!

    Voting age was 21 prior to 1969 which meant many conscript soldiers fighting in the World Wars, and Korea couldn’t vote at all! Old enough to die, too young to have their say.

    1969 Northern Ireland achieves universal suffrage.

    In 1928 everyone over 21 got the vote with no property restrictions, unless you lived in Northern Ireland.

    In 1918 property restrictions were lifted on men, giving all men over 21 the vote. However only 40% of women were given the vote with property restrictions and a minimum age of 30.

    1917, 100 years ago, the the voting for me was 21 and property restrictions applied. Women couldn’t vote at all.

  56. heraldnomore says:

    Nice we bit in The National about the three stooges meeting up to re-brand BT. New Direction, apparently. Or Nude Erection more like. With Darling in a role but not the lead, which might default to Ms Rude. They’re getting the gang back together again, which’ll play out well as the council elections close in.

    Nude Erection, remember Willie and the pigs.

  57. K1 says:

    Ayep cat, that’s the true information that should have been publicly disseminated before EU vote.

    Lying conniving bastards the lot of them. England’s been screwed and we’re not going to allow Scotland’s debit card tae buy them out of their reckless fraudulent and criminal scam.

  58. call me dave says:

    Tried this yesterday no matter which date, ‘born’ or ‘able to vote’ date it is 56%

    I was listening to Radio 5 (couldn’t cope with ‘your call’) and heard a few pundits all ‘non Scots’ ‘no SNP MPs’ giving Brexit large.

    When Henry VIII was in charge of Britain…err I mean England he fell out with the Pope etc etc he introduced a law which allowed Britain …err England to trade with the Turks instead of Europe… I mean FGS!

    Can’t get the facts right this was in the 1500s. There was no Union… but the mother of Parliaments will Buckle etc etc and so it goes.

    Buckle up folks!

    @Desimond says:
    29 March, 2017 at 11:15 am

    “We have unplugged from The Matrix”.

    That’s a coincidence as I have just watched the whole trilogy over the previous two days to take a break from all this Union crap. (I took notes) 🙂

    Why do we persist? Hard to distill it all down to a single drop of essence but Neil Anderson goes on to the end… we must too!

    Shades of Rude Davidson I’m afraid. (I’m not afraid really) 🙂

  59. Finlay says:

    48% for me.

    Just did some quick calculations and it appears that I’ll move over the 50% mark shortly after the proposed indyref2/brexit dates, assuming the Tories are still in power.

    Lets achieve independence before I become auld and jaded like the rest of ye! 😉

  60. Valerie says:

    The EU has been signalling their position since June, 2016, and they haven’t changed. Just no one that matters, cared to listen, there would be nothing if the 4 freedoms/pillars, were not accepted.

    Many learned academics shared the way the EU were getting organised, but we are sick of experts.

    The UK, and the idiots in charge have heaped insult on insult, and still expect the EU will bend the knee.

    Now we will see how that shapes up for them. I used to feel sorry for those down south that voted Remain, I don’t now, it’s everybody for themselves, as we craft a lifeboat.

    The Remainers in the south should have been a lot more forceful, with Labour, or with better pressure groups.

    Instead, I see the polls supporting Tories and Brexit, and it makes me sick.

  61. Clootie says:


    I think the Blair years should be classed as Tory.

  62. K1 says:

    The source for the first response from the EU on transitional deal:

  63. K1 says:

    (Oh as Valerie points out, it’s not their ‘first’ response at all, they knew and papers like the guardian knew too…they all have played a decisive part in the utter clusterfuck of Brexit)

  64. Capella says:

    60%. Life sentence. But since 2007 in Scotland I have been getting the Government I vote for and what a breath of fresh air it’s been. Long may it continue.

    @ call me dave – so what does Mr Anderson answer???

  65. stewartb says:

    These insights into the governments we get is part of a wider narrative that could with benefit be brought together in a concise message for voters in an Indyref2.

    I recall seeing, perhaps here on Wings a year or so ago, an analysis of the impact of General Election votes in Scotland on the party that forms the government in Westminster. My recollection is that over the past c. 50 years or so, Scotland’s votes changed the final outcome on only one occasion. If I recall, the key message at the time was that Scotland’s votes in General Elections ‘cannot secure a Labour government in Westminster’ or something similar.

    This narrative should also include the impact of Scottish MPs on the results of votes in the House of Commons.

    In a Commons debate on EVEL in October 2015, Chris Bryant Lab MP for Rhondda refers to research carried out by the House of Commons Library into the impact of the votes of Scottish MPs on the outcome of HoC’s divisions ( ). Bryant states:

    “The Library has examined every Division since 2001—some 3,000 Divisions in all. Library staff looked at what would happen if no Scottish MPs had voted in any of those Divisions. They found just a tiny proportion where that would have changed the vote— 25 in all.” So voting in only 0.7% of divisions would have had a different result without the involvement of MPs from Scotland.

    The HoC Library report can be found here: It provides the following additional information:

    “In the 2010-15 Parliament the lobby in which the majority of English MPs have voted coincided with that of the majority of UK MPs for 99% of divisions. The majority of Scottish MPs has coincided with the majority of UK MPs for 26% of divisions; that of Welsh MPs for 28% of divisions.” And despite this, EVEL was PM Cameron’s priority in the immediate aftermath of Indyref1!

    When you put together all these various ‘facts’ with: (a) the ‘being dragged out of the EU against our will’ reality; plus (b) the current Westminster parliamentary arithmetic with one Tory MP from Scotland; (c) the rejection of all amendments from Scotland’s MPs to both the Scotland Act and the Article 50 Bill; and (d) the Supreme Court ruling on the Sewell Convention; it all builds to an overwhelming case for a UK democratic system that demonstrably no longer works for Scotland.

    There should be benefit in aggregating all this evidence and amplifying this message over the coming months – the challenge is over how best and where best to communicate it concisely and effectively.

  66. Thepnr says:

    Theresa Mays letter on article 50 has just been published in full on many sites. Here’s a snippet:

    From the start and throughout the discussions, we will negotiate as one United Kingdom, taking due account of the specific interests of every nation and region of the UK as we do so. When it comes to the return of powers back to the United Kingdom, we will consult fully on which powers should reside in Westminster and which should be devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. But it is the expectation of the Government that the outcome of this process will be a significant increase in the decision-making power of each devolved administration.

    Looks like the Tory government still intend using Scotalnd’s assets as bargaining chips.

  67. Scott says:

    SNP MP condemns Home Office. Fishing: ‘Total indifference’ to letting non-European migrants solve crew shortage. The Press and Journal …

    This story says that some boats cant go to sea due to crew shortage Mr Goodwill says that it was not current policy to introduce non-EEA nationals to meet labour needs at lower skill levels I wonder if this stupid Tory would like to come face to face with fishermen and tell them that their skills are lower level.
    About the article according to my age I have been ruled 62years by these barstewards like Davidson.

  68. Chick McGregor says:

    63% But I would add the Blair/Brown tenure to that.

  69. heraldnomore says:

    I’m at 59% but the interesting figure is the final one – tory popular vote victories in Scotland.

    There’s one of them in my lifetime, from 15 attempts. That means I’m old.

    And it also means Scotland gets the government England votes for. But nor for much longer.

  70. HandandShrimp says:

    re Brexit and consultation

    I see May and Fluffy Muddle spell consultation telt!
    Who the hell would trust these people to look after the best interests of Scotland? They would have the sugar out of your tea if you turned your back for 10 seconds. We will need a long spoon, ideally our own Foreign Office, to sup with these people.

  71. Tinto Chiel says:

    62% and, to make it worse yesterday, I had to watch Ruth Davidson being outrageously rude to the FM of our country while she spat out lie after lie like a wee, belching puddock.

    I’m sure she got a pat on the head and a wee treat from her masters, but she’ll never be anything more than a Sweaty Sock and Useful Idiot to them.

    What can you get with thirty pieces of silver nowadays?

    Still beelin’.

  72. Valerie says:

    Lifted from the international business times, I feel nothing in common with that poll.

    No Bregrets! A YouGov poll has found that 69% of people want Brexit to go ahead while only 21% want to see the referendum result overturned. If the poll is correct, then Britain is markedly more pro-Brexit now than it was on 23 June when the vote was split 52/48.

  73. Stoker says:

    Vestas (11:42 am)

    Thank you for that info, didn’t half cheer me up. Thanks!

    Troops, don’t forget, after 16:00 hours today you should be able to access the full list of candidates standing in your wards local elections. The sooner you know the list of candidates the sooner you can organise your voting intentions and spread the word in your own area. The info should be available on your local authorities web site.

  74. Effijy says:

    I tend not to disagree with the Rev’s statistics,
    But to my mind Tory Ted Heath won the election
    1970. A left wing incompetent Labour government
    Gained power in 1974 and held it until 1979 when
    Thatcherism took over.

    I seriously propose that when new Labour took over
    In the late 1990’s, it was no more than a diluted right
    Wing Tory government.

    Any Scot who will celebrate their 50th Birthday in 2020
    Will have lived every day of their life under right wing
    Control when Scotland had never supported right wing
    policies at any time during this period.

    To aggravate this further, it looks like there will be no serious
    Opposition to Tory Rule until 2030.

    It looks like 60th Birthday’s will be a life sentence of Tory rule.

  75. Artyhetty says:

    Seeing some twitter comments quoting PM about brexit, we are all in together, a great fckg union as one, britain great, laws made in our own country, (which fckg country?) the future is fabdabbydoo fckg magic abracadabra sparkly and pretty thingy to look forwards to! Oh, and every time an SNP MP opens their mouth, ‘now is not the time’.

    What a despicable, disgusting, dysfunctional, dead duck the UK is now. They will be ramping up the rule britania, get back in your box sweaty jocks meme from now until brexshit is done, and dusted off their corrupt, dirty, disgusting butchers fckg aprons.

    Raging today.

  76. orri says:

    Borrowing trouble from the future but given the intent is to give Scotland a taste of Brexit just in case we change our minds am I to assume that regardless of any desire on some in Westminster there will definitely be no public referendum on whatever deal May et al manage to get?

    If we vote against that’s be construed as us rejecting Brexit once more and thus the same justification for another independence referendum would exist.

    Unless there’s a fair certainty that Scotland might vote in favour that is. If we voted in favour then rather than it being a making the best of a bad situation an attempt would be made to portray it as Scotland willing to accept Brexit.

  77. clan rossy says:

    jesus fckng christ i dont know how the snp mps
    can sit there knowing that no one down there gives a fck
    about us.

    it is time they just resigned and come back to scotland
    its time to get out of this union legally or illegally
    i dont give a fck anymore the whole set up is completely
    fckd up and ive had enough of being stood on

    time to end it now.

  78. Nana says:

    O/T Bloody tory cause chaos and harm, everything they touch turns to shit

    EU Council President Donald Tusk

    “What can I add…we already miss you. Thank you and goodbye”

    video here

  79. Stoker says:

    Part of Treeza Mayhem’s letter:

    “But it is the expectation of the Government that the outcome of this process will be a significant increase in the decision-making power of each devolved administration.”

    Aye, right, and it was our expectation that the outcome of The Vow *and* The Smith Commission would be a significant increase in powers given to Holyrood. Well, to be more accurate, that’s what London promised and we’re still waiting. GTF London, we’ll create our own powers via independence.

    We’ll be too busy establishing our forward thinking country in its rightful place in the world whilst you lot spend most of your time avoiding the debt collectors at the door. We hope yous enjoy the view from behind the sofa you bunch of thieving scroungers.

  80. ahundredthidiot says:

    no wonder they’re laughing at us

  81. Marie Clark says:

    Folks, folks, I know how many of you feel today, but can I just suggest that we settle doon a wee bit.

    We have a long way to go. We have yet to hear officially, what the EU think. Nicola has a plan obviously, which will become clear after Easter if still no response from the Maybot. Always remember we are EU citizens and don’t wish to leave. Let’s haud fire for a wee while yet.

    I know,, I know, how agravating it is, and it’s no very good for the auld blood pressure either, but dinae get too doonhertit.

    Steady as we go boys, it’s sure to get worse afore it gets better.Coorie doon and wait for when we are really ready to respond, in oor ain way.

  82. ahundredthidiot says:

    fingers crossed EU take gloves off on April 29th.

  83. jfngw says:

    May is giving a vow of more powers. Is there anyone in Scotland unwilling to believe her, after all that would require some proof that they have lied about this before. Are we not already living in a near federal UK.

  84. Gavin Alexander says:


    which years did we have popular Tory majorities in Scotland? I can see only one since 1945, on 26 May 1955 (Tory 36:34 Labour seats), but the calculator says there were three.

    There was a dead heat with Labour of 35 each on 25 Oct 1951.

    What am I missing?

  85. Arbroath1320 says:

    Did the wee calculator thingy yesterday and found out that I’ve lived under a Tory government for 60% of my life. Now I know why I feel so damned wretched every day. Just for good measure I also did my partner and she has had the “pleasure” of living under a Tory government for 61% of her life.

  86. Alba 46 says:

    I am a died in the wool Scot aged 70. Having visited over 35 countries in the world i have never wanted to be anything else. I despair that a good portion of my fellow countrymen/women have an allegiance to another country before their own.

    Scotland has been like many other colonies of this so called UK raped and abused for centuries. Our resources have been squandered in vanity projects for the benefit of england whilst we get the crumbs from a sneering, lying, manipulative bastard english government.

    With all these new oil fields coming on stream you can bet your last cent that they will want to hang on to Scotland with every underhand, devious, lying trick that they can muster ably supported by a subservient compliant media. As far as they are concerned we will be ALLOWED to go free when Scotlands resources have been stolen and, like their other colonies there is nothing left for them they will walk away. See history.

    Rennie, Davidson and Dugdale really are the epitome of arse licking uncle toms. They are totally obsessed with unionism. They suffer from a sever form of inferiority complex. They don’t have the basic knowledge, skill, political acumen or backbone to run a country. They are so terrified that they may have to run a country (I know unlikely) that they hide under the comfort cloak of an english government to run Scotland for them as long as they get their ermine at a future date.

    I really do despair with my union supporting fellow Scots, get of your bloody knees and fight for your country.

  87. Thepnr says:

    I’d bet that the most prominent thing on the UK governments mind right now is not Brexit but Scottish Independence.

    Oops, didn’t plan that very well. Did they?

  88. Macandroid says:


    63% of your life has been under a Tory government

    Get me out – Aargh!

  89. yesindyref2 says:

    I did think Sturgeon was waiting till after May’s Brexit letter so as not to “steal her thunder”, out of courtesy. But having read the letter in full, I’d say Sturgeon and advisers will be poring over it in detail, before sending their own letter to May about the Referendum. Also of course it removed any slight chance May would delay the Brexit letter blaming Scotland.

    So yet again perhaps, Sturgeon has out-manoeuvered May.

  90. heraldnomore says:

    “and none at all in the last 60”

    Last time I looked I was still a little shy of that benchmark, so which 1 of the last 15 is the calculator including in my figures, master?

  91. Dr Jim says:

    My figure is 100% because I’ve never voted anything else other than SNP whenever I got the chance for 56 years

    The BBC and Yoon Party are now blaming the SNP for burying the bad news about the wind blowing under the news of Article 50 signing, emphatically proving beyond any reasoned intelligence that the SNP are indeed the only party fit to govern

    There’s just no denying the power of the one party SNP one minute while decrying its authority the next

  92. Chick McGregor says:

    Nicola should make it very clear to the EU negotiators that any UK deals made regarding Scottish produce, energy, land or sea assets which the Scottish government disagrees with should be regarded as non binding on the Scottish Government and subject to change if Scotland votes for independence.

  93. schrodingers cat says:

    K1 says:

    Ayep cat, that’s the true information that should have been publicly disseminated before EU vote

    thing is K1, as val says, it was. I have been saying for months, not because i have a crystal ball, but because the eu sad this before, during and after the euref

    the problem has been the media and all politicians in the uk have been arguing in a bubble, without a thought as to the eu’s opinion.

    they did the same thing in indyref1 when the eu actually offered to officially clarify its position regarding an indy scotland. cameron
    refused to ask them.

    why didnt cameron ask the eu to bring forward its official position before the euref vote?

    either way, we now know officially, the position of eu citzns in uk and uk citzins in the eu are priority after which the uk pays the bill.
    end of brexit negotations

    as there is no trade deal until after the uk has left, this means the uk will move from its present position in the single market, into another when it leaves. it doesnt say what that position is, just that it is from that position that trade negotiations will start.

    the only possible explanation or position is WTO?

    prediction, uk will be out by this autumn

  94. Angry Weegie says:

    Not only have I not been represented by a government I voted for, until 2015 I haven’t even been represented by a candidate I voted for.

  95. Fireproofjim says:

    In 1955, which was the last time Scotland voted for a Conservative Government, it was a different world.
    Harold MacMillan’s “one nation conservatives” were also totally different from the present lot of wild right wingers, and built more council houses than anyone before or since, as well as expanding the NHS and encouraging industry to move to Scotland.
    It will be a long time if ever before the present gang will get that sort of support.

  96. carjamtic says:

    Top Tip

    Print off how much your weekly shop costs today….c/w today’s date….put away somewhere safe

    It may prove useful later….

    Every little helps. ?

  97. Free Scotland says:

    I see Mother Theresa is aiming to release a cover version of that old hit by Gogsy Broon and the Vowmakers – “More Powers.” I don’t think many people will buy it.

  98. Ken500 says:

    Teresa May is an manipulating calculating liar. She does not practice what she preaches. Actions speaks better than words. She makes bad decisions with poor outcomes and then blames someone else who is not at fault. They lose their job. That is the pattern of her ‘career’.

    Liars never win. She will be found out. She is heartless and does not care. Starving and maiming and killing millions of innocent people. Causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Then using it to advance herself. A ‘psycho bastard’ Tory. Hundred times worse than Thatcher. If that was possible, Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. The Tories and their associates are nothing but lying criminals. They have tried to dupe the people, The will never win.

  99. Vestas says:

    Tusk’s statement and demeanor said it all – “missing you already”. If you haven’t seen it then worth watching.

    The UK (England really) has gone from one of the only EU states to permit Eastern Europeans to work in the UK (2004) to “we’re leaving, fuck all you foreigners” in under 13 years.

    Something to think about for sure. Iraq/Afghanistan/ISIS played their part in “bloody foreigners/othering” I dunno.

    Its a hell of a change in 13 years.

  100. Golfnut says:


    Westminster couldn’t and wouldn’t acknowledge the EU’s position regarding trade deals. They have been as dishonest over Brexit as they were with indy14. An ignorant and frightened population are much easier to control than an informed one.

  101. yesindyref2 says:

    That leaked EU Parliament resolution sets the time limit Scotland would need to become Independent and not leave the EU, without special arrangements: “three-year limit on transition arrangement” (after actual Brexit).

  102. Thepnr says:

    It’s all interesting so it is.

    Some things we do seem to know from the articles today:

    The UK want the trade deal to be completed in the two year timeframe. The EU won’t discuss a trade deal until the exit position is dealt with.

    The UK will include all of the UK in it’s dealings including Scotalnd and her assets and people. Wonder what the EU think of that.

    If we exit without a deal it’s straight onto WTO rules with however a maximum of 3 years on possibly the most important items to be agreed between the two.

    What might that mean for Scotland?

    Well it would seem all we will know by the time of the referendum proposed by the Scottish Parliament is that we will be leaving without any idea of what it means for trade.

    The position of immigrants from the EU into the UK and vice versa might be known.

    What the UK’s bill will be for exiting and security arrangements between UK and EU might be known.

    So can we have a referendum without knowing the details? You bet we can if these issues are not resolved. The details are that the UK is screwed without agreement on trade and that aint coming.

    Doesn’t look good from where I’m sitting. Car crash coming I think!

  103. Proud Cybernat says:

    I hear that ‘Better Together’ is to be resurrected as ‘New Direction’. It would seem then that the direction they told us was the bestest for Scotland to take in 2014 was actually a pile of steaming keech and now has to be changed. Sounds like ‘Nae Direction’ would be a more suitable name this time round.

  104. Ian says:

    Labour and the Tories have been indistinguishable in their negative impact on the people in Scotland since at least the 1970’s.

    1. It was Labour that first buried the McCrone report, a scandal of truly immeasurable scale and whose resulting financial deceit can only partly be visualised by visiting Norway today.

    ‘Prof. McCrone passed the report on to the new Labour government on 23 April 1975, along with a covering letter. The covering letter is the source of the oft-quoted phrase about “taking the wind out of the SNP’s sails”; Prof. McCrone was here outlining what actions he believed would be necessary to prevent support for the SNP from growing further. The report was classified as ‘secret’ by civil servants at the time, and successive UK Governments kept it so, over fears that McCrone’s findings would give a further boost to the SNP’s policy of Scottish independence’.

    ‘McCrone was saying that an independent Scotland would be Europe’s Switzerland. The Labour party were saying that it would be like Bangladesh’. That is the extent of Labour’s view of the people in Scotland.

    2. It was Labour who introduced the 40% ammendment to the 1979 Scottish Devolution referendum that turned a yes vote into a no. Using this rule, Brexit would have failed with the Leave getting 37% not 52%. One rule for the UK and another much harsher one for Scotland.

    It’s life under Unionist UK parties that matters in Scotland and Labour for a very long time, not only don’t care about the people in Scotland, but have done as much harm as the Tories have. It made no difference if it was a Tory or a Labour government, it’s what their respective track records show that matters, not the PR nonsense that they spout. It’s what they do that counts not what they say.

  105. yesindyref2 says:

    @K1 / @Heed
    So basically the EU parliament is saying what it said all along. No negotiation with the UK about trade terms until after official Brexit, when it will negotiate with the UK as a “third country”, not a member state – with transitional arrangements for 3 years to stop an immediate impact.

    The EU Parliament is a great supporter of Scotland, and really doesn’t like the UK. It also is one of the voting pillars of the EU – any terms of Brexit need its approval.

    Basically speaking, the UK is fsked, and Davies is redundant. Minister Without Portfolio for 2 years.

  106. yesindyref2 says:

    Beat me to it, that’s my third thought. The terms of negotiations won’t be known, Brexit terms yes, like who pays who what and when as aprt of the membership termination package, but future trade cold be anything betweem WTO, CETA (the Canadian trade deal), or not a lot more basically.

    Logical for the EU – the UK becomes just another third country, like Canada, Australia, Malawi, Tuvalu. Harsh, but makes sense I suppose to the EU. All it does is treat the UK same as it treats all non-EU states.

  107. Vestas says:

    I think we now see why the Beard Muncher/TankGirl were talking about 2020’s for indyref2 yesterday?

    Clearly the Tories have known of this for some time – and Privy Council members of other parties haven’t.

    Deary me. This isn’t going to fly yoons. It’ll crash & burn.

  108. Free Scotland says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    “I hear that ‘Better Together’ is to be resurrected as ‘New Direction’ ”

    Or, as someone suggested earlier, “Nude Erection”.

  109. Thepnr says:

    Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish government have totally screwed up Theresa May and the Brexiteers negotiating plan for dealing with the EU.

    UK: “From the start and throughout the discussions, we will negotiate as one United Kingdom”

    EU: “Eh! No you won’t, not before the Scots have a referendum and decide whether or not to remain as a part of the UK”

    UK: Oh shit.

    The UK is in a very bad place right now. The government are totally clueless and incompetent is too nice a description for this lot.

    They’ll reap what they sow. Bring it on right enough.

  110. schrodingers cat says:

    just as well treeza warned everyone that no deal was better than a bad deal cos that is exactly what the eu has just told the uk it is going to get.

    what will brillo discuss now?
    should the commons have the opportunity to vote on whether they accept the eu’s offer of no deal in 18 months time?

    if ever the vaccuos and bubble like nature of the emperialist bbc needed highlghted, this has just done it.

  111. schrodingers cat says:

    so now we know, WTO it is

    question, is there any reason to wait till 2018 for indyref2?

  112. Marie Clark says:

    schrodingers cat @ 2.32 thanks for that cat, oh dear, doesn’t bode well does it.

    Have to agree with Thepnr @ 3.01 car crash coming up, oops. Well they cannae say that they weren’t warned.

  113. Fred says:

    Brought up to believe that the only good Tory was a deid Tory, that still applies to the present lot! 🙂

  114. Golfnut says:

    @ Free Scotland

    Or ‘ one direction ‘ down hill,, fast.

  115. Arbroath1320 says:

    I’ve just finished a wee rummage in one of our cupboards and came across this. I’m thinking a certain resident darn surf may have need of it what say you peeps? 😀

  116. Phil Robertson says:

    Hoss Mackintosh says:
    29 March, 2017 at 12:31 pm
    Phil – your Scottish history is not very good I am afraid – the Conservatives have never won outright in Scotland in the fifties.
    The Party was the Unionist Party and they were supported by the National Liberal party in 1955.

    You are correct about the naming but, in practice, they all took the Conservative whip at Westminster and some even became leaders of the Conservatives and Prime Minister. So you’ll need the proverbial cigarette paper to define the difference.

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    I personally don’t think it’ll be WTO that’ll be offered by the EU, it’ll be something like CETA (Canadian trade deal), and it’d be up to the UK whether it wants to accept it or not.

    Anyway, I’m going to read up a bit on CETA to see what the UK might be trading with the EU like after that 5 years total. Because that’ll be the basis like as not, for Indy Ref 2.

  118. ScottishPsyche says:

    By continuing to answer ‘now is not the time’ surely May must realise she is keeping the issue alive? It will continue to be a distraction and provide fodder for the SNP until she gives in or commits political suicide by trying to refuse completely.

    The latest tactics from those political geniuses of the Tory MSP list is to equate their pathetic SNP bad motions as equal to that of the Parliament asking for Section 30. They try to diminish the status of the Scottish Parliament with their every utterance and end up showing up themselves as the cringing fools that they are.

  119. Bob Mack says:

    I have just read the letter to the EU and more importantly the reply. Now this may seem a bit out of left field as the Yanks like to call it, but there were some very important points.
    The letter from May actually threatens to disrupt the security of Europe, probably by refusing to provide nuclear submarine cover.

    More importantly however the reply from Europe does several things. It makes clear that EU law still applies to the UK over the next two years. It also clearly indicates that areas of the UK voted to remain.

    What then if Nicola applied to the EU courts to decide on our democratic right as a Sovereign people to hold a referendum? They are after all the legal authority for the next two years. They also state that if the UK does not recognise that jurisdiction it would be in breach of international law.

    Could there be mileage in this? They would be challenging the authority of the Supreme Court in the UK over their verdict on article 50, so it would not be a “new” case if you like.

  120. Liz g says:

    Vestas @ 3.12
    Beard Muncher….. Really!!
    Can I ask that if you are standing by that remark as appropriate,will you take note that I am not addressing you in my comments and do me the curtsey (look it up ) of not engaging me?

  121. gus1940 says:

    Perusal of the Comments on the on-line Scotsman and Herald indicates that The Unionist Troll Factory was mobilised after yesterday’s Holyrood vote and have been extremely busy deluging us with their lying verbal excreta.

    It also appears from comment above that they are now going full blast on the BBC Site and no doubt on all the metropolitan blats.

    I like the description above of the ‘wee fat belching puddock’

  122. Valerie says:

    As a senior Italian gov’t member said.

    Sure, I might not be able to sell Prosecco to one country, but UK will have 27 countries they can’t sell fish and chips to.

    I just don’t know how stupid and monumentally arrogant you have to be, to be a Tory, because it’s beyond my comprehension. All this crap about trade deals, when the EU has so many across the globe, because unlike UK, they haven’t been sitting on their arse for decades.

    The collective IQ of the EU will rise dramatically after March 2019, when UK leaves. They will heave a sigh of relief, when the truculent, whiny brat of the bloc, demanding special conditions, through the years, is ejected.

  123. manandboy says:

    Theresa May, speaking in the House of Commons, says “perhaps now more than ever the world needs the liberal democratic values of Europe”. Howls of laughter followed.————–parliament-erupts-as-theresa-may-mentions–liberal–democratic–values-of-europe

  124. yesindyref2 says:

    @Phil Robertson
    It’s a big difference actually Phil, huge, enormous, titalnic.

    The Conservatives in Scotland did well, the Conservative and Unionists didn’t.

    Part of the battleground in Indy Ref 2 will be for Conservative voters. and one important tactic will be to split them from the Conservative and Unionist party, which doesn’t represent their interests, nor has for many decades.

  125. K1 says:

    Liz? Whit dae ye think he (Vestas) meant by Beard Muncher:

  126. gus1940 says:

    I understand that Nicola is heading stateside during the Easter recess.

    Is it not a case that Palestinian politicians are given access to and the privilege of addressing The UN.

    Should the Scottish Government not also be allowed to address and/or lobby The UN.

    Come on Nicola – get in there and tell the world how we are being treated as inferior colonial natives.

  127. manandboy says:

    If the EU were to offer the UK the deal they have now in it’s entirety, May would jump at it – if she were wise. Therein lies the rub.

  128. K1 says:

    Manandboy that just takes ye tae an aol page full of ‘news’ not a link to a ‘video’ you describe.

  129. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g

    Indeed, such use of language is disgusting, and there’s been a few of the more extreme types of comment in this thread.

    I wonder what or who set them off, mostly in the previous thread, lit the blue touch paper, then retired to a safe distance?

  130. jfngw says:

    My suspicion is that May intends to not respond to the section 30 request. Then try an prevent any action by claiming to have not refused the request. I would hope the SG have this possibility covered.

  131. Valerie says:

    @Bob Mack

    I think all of your speculation is pertinent. It may be why Nicola is being slow and measured, not cutting across today, allowing first reaction from EU, and seeing if Treeza rethinks (she won’t, can’t afford to).

    The EU has recently hinted they will resort to law, if there is any UK refusal to pay their legal debts. They are not taking any shit. It will be civilised, but they will state their decisions, and let the Tories wail and blame.

    The rhetoric of the EU being to blame for everything will be ramped up from today.

    To think that May has has the temerity to link security across the countries, to getting trade deals is reprehensible. In the week after a terror attack on London, by a UK citizen.

  132. Wullie B says:

    59% for me, thought it ould have been more, mind you B Liars New Labour were poundshop Tories anyway

  133. misteralz says:

    @Liz G

    I think that oblique should have been an ampersand. Beard Muncher is a colloquialism for Mundell Senior. Reading it back after you took offence, I can see why you did – but I genuinely don’t believe it was meant like [i]that[/i].

  134. K1 says:

    I’m trying to understand what the problem is with referring to Mundell as a ‘beard muncher’ and why it is so offensive? Ma understanding is that Vestas is literally referring to him in his capacity as one who eats any remaining food missed by his mooth lodged in his beard?

    Am ah missing some other ‘reference’ that others are ‘inferring’ from this expression?

  135. galamcennalath says:


    Nicola and the stalling of Sect 30.

    Perhaps SG discussions with the UN and the Council of Europe will now begin.

    Mayhem’s behaviour was ‘just politics’ up until the duly elected Scottish Parliament, with a mandate, formally asked for ‘permission’. After that it became totally unacceptable to keep saying no. There are well established international procedures to allow progress.

  136. Arbroath1320 says:

    Apparently a copy of the response from the E.U. to Mayhem has just been leaked to the media. ?

  137. Bob Mack says:

    Question ? Why should the French now stop migrants from all over N Africa completing their journey to the UK. After all the British have been using other countries as a border guard to prevent them coming.
    If they no longer wish to be part of Europe why should the French bother?

  138. gus1940 says:

    Over 50 years ago in my early years in the world of IT in the days of the mainframe long before PCs had been heard of one of the mainframe manufacturers produced a thing called a Buzz Word Generator.

    It consisted of 3 columns of computing words from which one could select any word from each column and produce what appeared to be a meaningful phrase but which was in fact total rubbish.

    Given the deluge of gut wrenching imperialist platitudes uttered by our Precious PM about her wonderful unstoppable nation could somebody not come up with an on-line Theresa May Buzzword Generator with accompanying soundtrack playing Land of Hope and Glory on an endless loop.

  139. Kupo says:

    It was 55% for me and I’m only 28 years. So half of my life I’ve been under tory rule. Hmm.

  140. Liz g says:

    Misterals @ 4.01
    Then I am sure Vestas will clear the matter up and if you are right then the only problem is being cautious about statements that are not clear as I am sure you will agree no one wants to be misunderstood.

    KI @ 4.02
    He/She wasn’t talking about Fluffy,both terms were for Ruth.
    While Tank Commander is fair comment because of the photos,the other one wasn’t.
    I don’t want to derail the conversation any more, just didn’t think that it should be let slide.
    People notice and it does matter.

  141. Bob Mack says:


    Yes your missing something .It is an urban expression for a sexual act. !! Nuff said

  142. yesindyref2 says:

    So let’s talk about the Secretary of States for Scotland we’ve had, without being personal.

    David Mundell. Receives memo from Davies, Johnson or May “tell the Scots they can’t have a Ref until 2023” or “it’s not could, it’s should”. Mundell does as he’s told. But did he stand up for Sewell being made statutory in the Scotland Act 2016? No. Did he support any SNP amendments, or Labour ones for that matter? No. And has he been abroad selling Scotland, arranging better access to the UK embassies for Scotland’s businesses? Also No. Positive Scote 1, null points.

    Carmichael. Pushed for Crown Estates to be devolved to Scotland, especially after the interests of Shetland and Orkney. That happened, and probably why he was re-elected. Did he fight for CAP uo0lift convergence targetted by the EU at Scotland to be given to Scotland? No, he agreed for it to be shared with the rest of the UK equally, rather than come to Scotland where it properly and financially belonged. Score 3. I’d give him an extra half point for “Help me Rona”.

    Michael Moore. Negotitated in a civilised manner with Sturgeon, the S30 transition and the Edinburgh Agreement. Had a civilised debate with Sturgeon, and refused to lie during it. Also went to the US to attract trade and investment for Scotland, did other duties. Score 7.

    So the final rankings put David Mundell last out of 3 with absolutely 0 positive points, and that’s not even considering the minuses.

    Isn’t that better than calling him a “beard muncher”?

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    More and more posters are pulling up this sort of thing on the Herald (and National), and it’s a winning tactic, as well as being “right”. Let the Unionists put “nat sis”, “cult”, “Wee Krankie”, “lying divisive SNPee” and let them lose. Yippeee!

  144. Craig P says:

    Stoker says:
    Part of Treeza Mayhem’s letter:
    “But it is the expectation of the Government that the outcome of this process will be a significant increase in the decision-making power of each devolved administration.”

    And it is my expectation that the Tories will stiff us over. Gosh, I wonder who will be right?

  145. Stoker says:

    BTW, here’s another example of the double standards we in Scotland are expected to accept and just shut the feck up, apart from the 60-odd-percent of the Scottish electorate who voted to remain that is.

    Remember the Smith Commission and all its wee clauses the Unionists had written into it, the wee clauses that kept repeating something along the lines of ..not to the detriment of the other parliament/party.. Or was it detriment..?

    Well, being dragged out of the EU against the majority’s wishes would be detrimental to Scotland’s interests.

  146. galamcennalath says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    WTO it is

    question, is there any reason to wait till 2018 for indyref2?

    We need to wait to see the exit terms, but i have always thought we might know well before 18months have lapsed!

    The Brexiteers-UKIPers-Mail-Telegraph-Express and other sundry sub-fascists won’t like what the EU have in mind.

    This Guardian article covers the resolution which is to be put to European Parliament. It gives some idea of what they are thinking …
    (Won’t properly)

    – no trade talks until after Brexit
    – limited transitional arrangements for max 3years
    – EU citizens arriving up until 2019 will have guaranteed residency
    – European Court of Justice stays during transition
    – no trade talks with 3rd parties until after Brexit

    The loony right Little Englanders will spit the dummy!

    So, ScotRef earlier? Why not!?

  147. Cherry says:

    If I had better skills I would use the Thatcher video/picture in the tank…photoshop TM…i mean there’s not a lot of difference between them. Maybe Proud Cybernat could manipulate…if he could be bothered…

  148. Stoker says:

    Craig P (4:34 pm):

    I’ll have a tenner on you Craig, if i can get any odds on it.

  149. galamcennalath says:

    Imagine how the Tories would behave if the EU response was … “You can’t leave, you have no mandate, a majority don’t want it, too many other things going on, now is not the time … now shut up and forget this leaving nonsense for the foreseeable future!”

    Aye, they would just accept it and get back into their wee Big Ben decorated biscuit tin.

  150. jfngw says:

    The main point to me is not how long we have been governed by the Tories but how long we have been governed by parties without a majority in Scotland, it just happens to be the Tories.

    To have the government that the nation voted for for only 42% of your life is a democratic disgrace. I could only imagine the screams from elsewhere if this was the case, it was bad enough when some thought the SNP could hold the balance of power.

  151. Kupo says:

    Correction: 54%. Woohoo, thats a mighty one percent lower I’ve had to put up with their gobs***e. Although to be honest I’m not laughing.

  152. Dorothy Devine says:

    Liz , while agreeing with you entirely ,your’ do me the curtsy ( look it up)……’ had me grinning broadly.

    Courtesy maybe?

  153. gus1940 says:

    Can anybody tell me if the proposed protest rally at PQ scheduled for last Sunday took place?

    The reason I ask is that I have failed to see any mention whatsoever of it in our wonderful media although 2 marches in Edinburgh were covered extensively.

  154. Stoker says:

    To newbies and lurkers,

    Clicking on the repeated direct link in the post at 4:36 pm helps to fund and maintain that rags survival. Try and avoid helping them to crap all over Scotland. By clicking on that link you are paying them to bullshit you.

  155. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 16:18,

    I’m beginning to think that our Legislator-in-Chief has some legal action in mind now. The Supreme Court may have ducked the challenge of the pathetic Sewell Convention, but there may remain some defect in Mayhem’s blank refusal to have the prior agreement of the devolved assemblies to the terms of the Brexit negotiation, especially after she promised that she would, and now that the SG is formally enabled (glorious day!) to seek a new independence referendum.

    I could see an SG claim of denial of democratic rights reaching the European Court before Mayhem’s ability to stop it.

  156. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s actually very interesting.

    Article 50 says it has to be involed “in accordance with the member state’s constitution” (or similar). Which means one option Sturgeon and the SG have after Easter, if May and the UK Gov refuse the S30, is to challenge the validity of the A50 invocation itself. Which means I guess, while that was going through the courts, the EU would have to suspend negotiations around the A50, and if the ScotGov won, the 2 year clock would be reset to the start of another, but legal, invocation of A50 in, oooh, say, 1 year’s time.

    Mess with Sturgeon at their peril “wha daur meddle wi’ me” indeed!

  157. Jack Murphy says:

    Oh! I’ve just remembered—the Labour Party voted in the Commons with the Tories to trigger Article 50 Brexit!

    Scotland beware of Labour and Tories bearing gifts. 🙁

  158. galamcennalath says:

    Stoker says:

    Direct links.

    Sometimes pages just won’t archive properly, as with the Guardian one I posted and you referrered to. seems to have its limits. only redirects and doesn’t avoid the real page.

    If something is important to a posting it isn’t always possible to avoid direct links

  159. Free Scotland says:

    When referring to Scotland’s only tory MP – who was caught on camera in the House of Commons picking crumbs from his beard and munching them -, one should give him his proper title, namely, Captain Snackbeard of Mundellia. He has not yet attained the standard required to be referred to as “Self-appointed Governor General of Scotland,” a title vacated by the inept (and possibly insane) Gogsy Broon, after it became clear that he had done his best to damage Scotland in 2014.

  160. jfngw says:


    I have a selective ad blocker (adguard), the Guardian gets no income when I visit the site, same goes for the Herald. I do allow the ads on the National site.

  161. Vestas says:

    Beard Muncher refers to Mundell’s culinary habits rather than anything else.

    Some of you are WAY too sensitive.

  162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    jfngw @ 16:44:

    The main point to me is … how long we have been governed by parties without a majority in Scotland, it just happens to be the Tories.

    That’s how I see it too. With all due respect to Stu, it’s not the “Tory years” that bother me, it’s the “Unionist exploitative years” that do. Going back all the way to the Wilson/Callaghan Labour government which suppressed the McCrone report, of which far too many people (on both sides of the border) are still completely unaware.

    They plundered our people and our plentiful natural resources, laid waste to our means of production, then called us beggars.

    Well, no more.

  163. yesindyref2 says:

    @Vestas “Some of you are WAY too sensitive
    It’s not us that matter, it’s the lurkers who outnumber us by 100 to 1. Some of whom may be undecided, or potential YES voters.

  164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 16:56,

    I see we’re thinking along the same lines there!

    (And if we are, you can bet NS is way ahead of us.)

  165. North chiel says:

    “Bob Mack @ 0340pm” interesting point as regards the threat of
    withdrawing nuclear submarine cover by TM . However, could the FM reassure the EU that any ” transitional arrangements” ( after independence) as regards trident remaining in Scotland for
    a period of years would be linked to not only Scotland ( as an EU member in waiting) but all other EU members being ” covered”.
    Also , could this threat hasten Scotland’s EU membership?

  166. Hermodr says:

    Hi all. Seen a few references in discussions to something happening over Easter, or end April; can anyone advise what’s scheduled for then? Is this about Section 30? Cheers for any info.

  167. Legerwood says:

    Re: the article in the Guardian about the initial EU response to the Article 50 letter. I could not get it to archive properly. It may be one of the illustrations in the article is preventing the archive process working.

    Among the many interesting points in the article is this little nugget about Associate Membership of the EU which seems to be the model applied to the Ukraine. Here is the section dealing with it:

    “” It suggests the model for the future could be a form of associate membership, currently enjoyed by Ukraine.

    Ukraine is granted substantial market access under its deal but it is not subservient to EU law or the European court of justice.

    Neither does the arrangement require the observance of free movement rules and it allows Ukraine to negotiate its own free trade deals.

    However, it would require “a substantial payment” to the EU budget by the Treasury, potentially as much as half of as much as it pays today, according to a recent study of this model by the Centre for European Policy Studies thinktank.

    The association deal with Ukraine also allows collaboration on foreign and defence policy and on fighting crime and terrorism. Along with cash payments, the EU gets unfettered access to the Ukrainian market.””

    Interesting. Associate membership, well well.

  168. Vestas says:

    yesindyref2 5:11 pm @

    “@Vestas “Some of you are WAY too sensitive”
    It’s not us that matter, it’s the lurkers who outnumber us by 100 to 1. Some of whom may be undecided, or potential YES voters.”

    So I should check every phrase I use in case its in use as some slang with some cultures I’m not aware of?

    Fuck right off. Really.

  169. mike cassidy says:

    Guardian article archived.

    Its the way I archive them!

  170. Stoker says:

    galamcennalath wrote: (5:00 pm)

    “If something is important to a posting it isn’t always possible to avoid direct links.”

    Yes it is!

    Anyway, i’m not here to argue about it, if people are going to post direct links then i’m going to warn newbies and lurkers of the consequences of clicking on them. Direct links are completely avoidable and they help fund the BUM Bandits’ campaigns against us.

  171. Bob Mack says:


    “Some of you are way too sensitive”. Can apply to you too apparently.

  172. David Smith says:

    I really do hope the UK close ranks and give the Little Brits the roughest ride possible.
    I’ll feel a bit like the old French couple in the farmhouse in The Longest Day, but seeing these buffoons finally get their 500 years of Karma will more than suffice for any collateral damage I sustain here in Englandshire! ?

  173. David Smith says:

    Dammit! I meant “EU close ranks”.
    I’m weaning myself back into early starts due to starting a new job next Monday. Been a long one!

  174. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I know, most of the posters on here (myself included) are in no way sympathetic to the Tories, especially the bunch of brigands who are currently mounting a right-wing isolationist takeover of the UK. And Stu’s calculator (which doesn’t work in my older browser, BTW, presumably because its calculation has to go back so far that it’s taking forever! =grin=) may serve a useful purpose in detaching some more of the dwindling numbers of the Labourite faithful as they finally come to recognise that the game’s up for the crumbling collaborationist party in WM for a decade or more to come, and terminally in Scotland.

    But think on this. I had a chat with an agreeable fellow sitting next to me in the public gallery at Holyrood yesterday, and he turned out to be a Conservative for Indy. He had come to witness the passing of the new referendum bill with as much of a welcome as I did. He seemed to find the speeches of the MSPs from the Rude Davidson Party as tired, negative, irrelevant and useless as I did. He was looking forward to an independent Scoland which would provide a complete realignment of politics that had room for people like him. And why not?

    So even among old-school Conservatives there is a rupture developing, with people rejecting the mindless isolationist Unionism of the Mayhem Gang in favour of a new start for Scotland, with them along with it.

    Many here might still disagree with their politics, but we can surely all respect their legitimate common aspirations.

  175. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    1976 – 60%

  176. Vestas says:

    @Bob Mack 5:33 pm :


    “Some of you are way too sensitive”. Can apply to you too apparently.”

    Good call 🙂

    Sorry but it might seem naive but I’d never heard the phrase “Beard Muncher” before & frankly you’d have to GO LOOKING on Google to see some of the lunacy associated.

    Indeed the “top” Google search from urban dictionary has nothing to do with anything anyone normal could be expected to know!

  177. K1 says:

    Ah archived and posted Guardian link at 12.58pm on this thread.

  178. Ian says:

    O/T – There seems to be some concern about linking to media that is normally clearly UK biased. However some of them do (very) occasionally run good articles that are either neutral, harsh on the UK’s incompetence or even with a slight independence bias. Since a key factor between now and Indyref2 will be to get people to switch from No to yes, who do you think they would trust more – an article in WoS or, for example, in the Guardian.

    So getting to know about these rare positive MSM articles and spreading them around is important in chipping away at the No/Unsure voters concerns about independence. Positive news is just that, regardless of where it comes from and for some I’m sure that a MSM article will carry more weight than most. Preaching to the choir is necessary but it may not be enough.

    If you’re bothered about advertising revenues then use an ad blocker.

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Vestas: “So I should check every phrase I use in case its in use as some slang with some cultures I’m not aware of?

    When it’s pointed out, yes!

    Fsk right off. Really.

    Yeah I know, I swear too much as well. Preacher heal myself!

  180. K1 says:

    ‘Many here might still disagree with their politics, but we can surely all respect their legitimate common aspirations.’

    Can ye no get tell him tae call his other 8 pals in Scotland who feel as he does and get them tae speak up tae… 😉

  181. Liz g says:

    Dorothy Devine @ 4.47
    Didn’t even notice it had changed….. I really can spell courtassay curtassie em Mannirs ye know.
    But I am glad that it did,wee bit of humour doesn’t go

  182. K1 says:

    Archiving the article doesn’t prevent you from noting where the article emanates, a wee description: this is from the Guardian/whatever would suffice surely?

    The point of archiving is to prevent ‘clicks’ counting toward those establishment msm outlets revenues and precisely because there is the occasionally informative article is why we are not saying ‘don’t read anything’ from those sites.

    Archiving is a simple solution that covers both our need to stay informed and disseminate good articles whilst not adding to the coffers of those outlets.

  183. galamcennalath says:

    Stoker says:

    Yes it is!

    So why didn’t you do so to prove it?

    Legerwood @ 5:22 highlights the same problem.

    Ok, do it then. Show us all how to avoid bringing up that Guardian page from a link.

  184. caz-m says:

    Another reason that Treeza would not want to grant us a Referendum BEFORE the Brexit negotiations are complete is that she would have to resign if we won our Referendum.

    It would mean her resigning as PM before any Trade Deals are completed between the EU and rUK.

    Just thought i would through that into the mix.

  185. schrodingers cat says:

    day one and talks are already in melt down, amber rudd making a complete fud of herself
    She said if the UK left Europol, it would take its information with it.
    One senior EU source said that it appeared as if Britain was seeking to “blackmail” the EU into giving it a deal.

    good news for NI though
    It recognises there is a special threat to Ireland and Northern Ireland, Verhofstadt says: “The Brexit agreement has to fully respect all the aspects of the Good Friday agreement” and will not accept a hard border.

    i note there is no mention of scotland tho

    but merkle steps in and says, no deal means no deal
    Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, has rejected the UK government’s call for the withdrawal treaty and the new trade deal to be negotiated in parallel

  186. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for September 2013 now over in O/T.

  187. Breeks says:

    Apologies if I’m behind the game, but the National is saying Better Together is to be re-branded New Direction.

    I volunteer to do some of the branding.

  188. caz-m says:

    Re Ruth Davidson and the showboating in front of the cameras yesterday.

    I thought she looked and acted like a wee street thug showing off in front of her pals.

    Definitely NEVER First Minister material.

    She made a complete arse of herself in front of a worldwide audience.

  189. Vestas says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland 5:39 pm :

    “But think on this. I had a chat with an agreeable fellow sitting next to me in the public gallery at Holyrood yesterday, and he turned out to be a Conservative for Indy….
    So even among old-school Conservatives there is a rupture developing, with people rejecting the mindless isolationist Unionism of the Mayhem Gang in favour of a new start for Scotland, with them along with it.”

    Tories in Scotland are between the proverbial rock & hard place now but post-indy they probably won’t have to sound quite as insane as they do now.

    They’ll do better in a post-indy election landscape provided they don’t totally tarnish their image (stop laughing at the back) during the indy process. Depends how much “no surrender” they go, could take genarations to recover from if they do it full-on.

    There’s a lot of small “c” conservatives in Scotland & post-indy that won’t automatically mean “unionist”. I expect the tories to do better after indy than they have in the last 50 years.

    It really makes you wonder, who’s going to be in charge 20 years after indy? Will the SNP still exist?

    Hope I see some of that.

  190. K1 says:

    gala ah managed tae archive the very article we are referring to above(earlier in the day). The thing is if anyone had attempted to archive it then the ‘original’ already archived article should display immediately, so not sure ‘how’ it failed tae archive as it had already been archived. If ye see whit a mean?

    Ah don’t mind archiving as we go on here if am aboot. The only articles ah cannae archive anymore are Herald ones as they are paywalled and I can no longer read the National either as that ipsum thing is happening. Which means wouldn’t be able tae archive them either.

    Wondering if the outlets are beginning to suss a way around archiving? On a final note on why to archive. Articles can and do ‘disappear’ on the internet and they can also be ‘re written’ utterly altering the ‘original’ article. We do need to retain archives to keep a record of the sly and devious ‘re writing’ of history. 🙂

  191. Liz g says:

    Could all those “Abnormal” A.K.A. Well Read (but potentially shit spellers ) drop it now.
    We have some great other conversations going on and there’s no more really to be said.

  192. K1 says:

    Thanks Nana,

    Here it is:

    Commenting on today’s triggering of Article 50 by the Prime Minister, setting in course the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union, First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon said:

    “Today’s triggering of Article 50 represents a leap in the dark by the Prime Minister.

    “Fully nine months after the EU referendum, the UK Government still cannot answer basic questions about what Brexit will mean for businesses, for the economy generally and for the type of society we live in.

    “I wish the Prime Minister well in the negotiations which lie ahead, because a good Brexit deal for the UK is in Scotland’s interests.

    “But the UK Government’s hard-line approach to Brexit is a reckless gamble, and it is clear, even at these very early stages, that the final deal is almost certain to be worse economically than the existing arrangements – and potentially much worse.

    “Scotland voted decisively to remain part of Europe, but the UK Government only formally responded with a dismissal of our compromise proposals to keep Scotland in the Single Market at the same time as the Article 50 letter was sent.

    “The next two years are hugely important and will determine the kind of country Scotland will become.

    “The Prime Minister has today confirmed her aim is to reach a Brexit agreement covering a future relationship within two years.

    “So the people of Scotland must have the final say on their own future once the terms of Brexit are clear.”

  193. galamcennalath says:

    caz-m says:

    Another reason that Treeza would not want to grant us a Referendum BEFORE the Brexit negotiations are complete is that she would have to resign if we won our Referendum.

    Very true! No PM could stay in position as the UK disintegrated around them and in part because of them.

    It really does make you wonder where they get their advice from. It looks like they only get it from people with the same world views and prejudices. I would have genuinely expected there to be unbiased neutral civil servants able to give honest appraisals of the situation. If there are, no one listens to them!

    SNP manifesto says IndyRef2 if forced out of the EU against Scotland’s will. Surely it is an inevitable consequence? Nicola suggested there be four nation vetos, Cameron declined. Leave won, hard Brexiteers grabbed power, IndyRef follows …. it’s hardly complex political science, is it?

    The price of Leave was likely to be the end of the UK. Did no one bother to actually tell they Tories what was inevitable?

    What may have happened it that the ‘rumour’ going round London that the SNP don’t really want Indy and it’s all a ruse to get more powers and money for Scotland was believed as credible!

    What chance to May et al have against EU negotiators!?

  194. caz-m says:

    The English have got delusions of grandeur.

    The actually believe that the EU are going to miss them.

    Boy, are they in for a right dose of reality in the very near future.

  195. manandboy says:

    K1 says:
    Manandboy that just takes ye tae an aol page full of ‘news’ not a link to a ‘video’ you describe.

    Sorry about that, K1. I’ve tried to trace it but without success.

  196. Legerwood says:

    K1@ 5.45

    I clicked on your archived link and it did not display properly. The same problems that I had when I tried to archive it.

  197. Gary45% says:

    “she made a complete arse of herself”
    I didn’t think she was capable of elevating herself to that standard,as far as being a bully? she is a nobody.
    Someone earlier referred to the “wee liar” as a puddock.
    Great description.

  198. Vestas says:

    @yesindyref2 5:52 pm :

    “@ Vestas: “So I should check every phrase I use in case its in use as some slang with some cultures I’m not aware of?”

    When it’s pointed out, yes!”

    Which it wasn’t until someone went googling to find an obscure meaning and you jumped on the bandwagon. Just like you always do.

    Fuck right off. Really. This is aimed specifically at you yesindyref2, nobody else.

    When you see my posts then skip right past them because I’m nobody you want to read.

    I’ll do the same with you & we’ll all be happy and NOT disrupting threads because we went looking on google to try to do that yes?

    Apologies to other readers, normal service is now resumed.

  199. Edward says:

    Anyone else notice the stupidity of Sky News (also probably BBC and ITV News) when the waffle on about EU laws being enshrined into ‘British Law’

    Are they being lazy or just to stupid to realise there is no such thing as ‘British Law’

    In the UK there are two seperate legal systems, English and Scottish

    As far as Im aware, that Scottish Law, as it is already enshrines EU law

    Any thoughts?

  200. Nana says:

    O/T again sorry

    Joint press conference by Antonio TAJANI, EP President and by Guy VERHOFSTADT, EP coordinator for the negotiations with the UK

  201. heedtracker says:

    Ligger Neil’s interviewing Mayhem at 7pm tonight. BBC. Its like Rupert Murdoch’s got the world at his feet, with his beeb gimps jumping around for him. Hope Mayhem’s washed her arse.

    Other news, are Vauxhall pulling out Brexit style? Probably.

    Vauxhall drops FA home nations football sponsorship deals
    7 minutes ago
    From the section Business

  202. galamcennalath says:

    K1 says:

    ah managed tae archive the very article we are referring to above(earlier in the day). The thing is if anyone had attempted to archive it then the ‘original’ already archived article should display immediately, so not sure ‘how’ it failed tae archive as it had already been archived. If ye see whit a mean?

    There was one archive there already, but all the ‘juicy’ bits half way down were gobbledegook.

    I tried again with a slightly different URL, and they were still gobbledygook.

    Legerwood seemed to get the same as me.

    If anyone can achieve an archive, then they are doing something I (and others) don’t know about.

    I could have saved the HTML, identified and edited out the offending code, then uploaded. Or, I could just occasionally and when necessary use a direct link!

  203. Legerwood says:

    mike cassidy says:
    29 March, 2017 at 5:24 pm
    Guardian article archived.

    Its the way I archive them!


    Sorry but the full article has not archived properly. Scroll down and it descends into gobbledygook – same problem I had.

  204. SmartBadger says:

    Doesn’t seem to work in Firefox – at least, not for me. Works fine in Chrome, though.

  205. Nana says:

    You can watch today’s proceedings in the commons here. Warning you might be liable to break something

  206. yesindyref2 says:

    You’ve got to love dear old Auntie Beeb. Firstly they don’t show Tusk saying “bye bye” to the UK. Second Smith in Edinburgh plainly speaking with Prime Minister authority when she says the ScotGov knows the answer to Sturgeon’s forthcoming letter about the S30 request. No they don’t, it ain’t happened yet.

    BBC? What on earth can I say, errrr, politely that is 🙂

    Poor show old chaps and chapesses, poor show!

  207. Thepnr says:

    Tim Farron: The North East will be hit hardest by Brexit – so you must have the final say

    Wonder if anyone has bothered to tell wee Wullie Rennie what his boss thinks?

  208. caz-m says:

    galamcennalath 6’10

    When our English Masters are making policy decisions that affect the whole of the UK, they think of England England and England.

    One example is the crisis in Northern Ireland. The English media have just started reporting on it this week and yet the problems have been there for months.

    Ditto Scotland and Wales. The English have no interest in any of the other Nations within the UK.

  209. Nana says:

    Re the article you are having trouble with. It is only the pages relating to documents from the EU which won’t archive. They will have some kind of lock included to prevent archiving [I think]

    May cannot now preach to Scotland about self-determination

  210. Clapper57 says:

    Apologies if already mentioned :

    Please sign petition for Annie Wells to resign from Scottish Parliament.

    Link to sign is on Paul Kavanagh’s twitter account.

  211. Bob Mack says:

    Interesting. A British reporter at the UN asked a European Ambassador what he thought of today’s events. Quote :

    “Britain has just shot itself in one foot,—– and we intend to shoot it in the other”

    Sound positive?

  212. Roughian says:

    BBC Katia Adler says “it’s a kick in the teeth for the EU”.
    Thanks BBC let’s keep the tone constructive and polite.

  213. caz-m says:

    Dear Mrs May,

    I don’t want to become isolated from the rest of the world.

    I would also like to retain my European Citizenship.


    Very Concerned Scot.

  214. Thepnr says:

    Let’s not beat around the bush. this is one gigantic clusterfuck that the UK has got itself into. It can only end with sadness all on our sides.

    Exclude Scotland if we take this opportunity to vote for Independence. Let’s just do that then, man the liferaft.

  215. Wullie says:

    Why do we never hear from the Scottish legal system whatever it’s proper title is. Have we no legal representation of our own. Where do they stand.

  216. Arbroath1320 says:

    Sorry if this information has already been posted.

    The panel for tomorrow night’s BBCQT from Carlisle is a really amazing collection of anti Brexit supporters. 😀

    Lisa Nandy …Labour
    Len McCluskey … UNITE
    Kate Andrews … some sort of”think tank” type
    Paul Nuttall … UKIP

    oh and they have someone on from Scotland … none other than Ruth the bloody Mooth!

    Anyone who still has the will to watch this s***e be warned … keep everything throwable well away and out of reach. I strongly suspect a great many objects will be getting thrown at numerous T.V.’s tomorrow night. 😉

  217. K1 says:

    I do apologise, I didn’t notice the archive hadn’t worked guys. 🙁

    Thanks for explanation Nana. 🙂

  218. caledonia says:

    comeon lets get this moving the more pressure the better

  219. Arbroath1320 says:

    Nana says:
    29 March, 2017 at 6:45 pm

    Oh good grief.

    I’ve just seen Carwyn Jones’s reaction to the news about Big Gordie and wee Kezia turning up in Cardiff to push their beloved “Federalism” s***e … AGAIN!

  220. galamcennalath says:

    caz-m says:

    When our English Masters are making policy decisions that affect the whole of the UK, they think of England England and England.

    Indeed. Very few people within the London Political Bubble understand the UK. For most there is only their England, which is in fact a Greater England inclusive of ‘the other bits’ which they really don’t understand much about.

    Good game if you can pull it off, perhaps. The biggest mugs are the Scottish BritNats who believe there is a Union and a United Kingdom in which they belong.

  221. Nana says:


    I’m only guessing K1. I’m sure someone will know more about it.

    Have a link

  222. gus1940 says:

    BBC Scotland are making extensive use of Jimmy Buchan today – on KayE and being interviewed on Misreporting Scotland.

    However, they seem strangely reluctant to remind us that he is a Tory failed election candidate.

  223. Roboscot says:

    Thanks for that link to Nicola Sturgeon’s statement Nana. I’ve only just learned from that statement that the Scotgov received a formal response to its Brexit proposals today and that its proposals were rejected. I’ve just checked the BBC news website and there is NO report of thet reply. Quite incredible.

  224. Nana says:

    @Arbroath1320 hahaha oh it’s crying time again, don’t ever leave me!

    Perhaps this is why Kezia’s face is tripping her

    From 6 days ago

  225. Breeks says:

    So in the red corner, we have a UK Prime Minister citing UK sovereignty and a mandate from a UK wide referendum to remove Scotland from Europe against its wishes.

    In the blue corner, we have Scotland’s First Minister citing Scottish sovereignty, and a mandate from the same referendum but where there was a clear and decisive majority delivered from the sovereign people of Scotland to stay in Europe.

    The million dollar question, the big issue, is whether a distinct and separate Scottish sovereignty is still legitimate in law, (the corollary of which being that Joined UK sovereignty must therefore be judged illegitimate by the same standards). That’s option 1, if the matter is to be determined by legitimacy of sovereignty.

    However, Option 2, the rupture in UK joined sovereignty might also be brought about a Scottish referendum where Scotland’s sovereign people elect to separate their parliament from the UK parliament and vote for Independence. Is that an issue Westminster can block? I say not. Neither the UN nor European Court would stand for it.

    The third possible option for ending the Union is to cite the conduct of the UK Prime Minister in refusing to respect the opinions of Scotland’s sovereign people, and declaring that this constitutes a material breach in the Treaties and Act of Union, rendering the contract defunked. By equal measure however, the UK Prime Minister might also cite the actions of the Scottish First Minister and Parliament in acting independently as also breaching the said Treaties. The result is the same, the contract of Union is broken and at an end, but there could be ramifications to follow when apportioning assets and liabilities.

    So, put crudely, we have 3 shots at Indy, and only one of them requires a referendum.

    Game on.

  226. Phil Robertson at 12.14

    Not entirely as you record. The “Tory ” majority in 1951 included winning Liberal Unionist and National Liberal candidates. These did in fact merge later into what was to become the Conservative and Unionist Party. It also accommodated a huge Orange Lodge vote which lingered on in industrial Scotland for a generation no doubt encouraged by a huge endorsement for the Tories from strong elements in the Church of Scotland.

  227. cearc says:

    R4 seem to be bigging up ‘our huge contribution’ to security intelligence etc.

    It crosses my mind that is not a lot of it dependent on our ‘listening’ operations in Cyprus and Malta?

  228. Arbroath1320 says:

    Glad you liked that wee photie Nana 😀

  229. Edward says:

    gus1940n @ 6:57 pm
    I also noticed that
    Also they failed to mention that he was fined by the EU for dumping fish or catching over quota (cant remember which)
    It was that basis he campaigned for leave, because he ran into trouble with EU regulations

  230. Tam the Bam. says:

    Brexit-What Next?

    On being told byy Brillo …’You cant wxpect any deal to be as good as present’
    MAY:’… will be different.’……….SOS

  231. Arbroath1320 says:

    Just had a wee look at currency exchanges and it looks like the £ has fallen by roughly half a cent against both the Dollar and the Euro since around 12 noon today.

  232. stewartb says:

    So the de facto English parliament and a de facto English PM decides not only to take my EU citizenship away but also to impose leaving the EU on this ‘wonderful’ union of all nations in the UK, regardless of the majority views of their different electorates.

    And just seen a clip on C4 News where May compares Scotland’s vote to remain with the remain vote in her own constituency. So Scotland does not even merit the status of a ‘nation’ in the UK when it suits her, far less one of two Kingdoms – an equal partner – in her precious union.

    The hypocrisy just gets more astonishing.

  233. Feel_loon says:

    Watching mayhem with Brillo
    Is it just me are is she arguing that the very things that she says we can’t do is exactly what she is planning

  234. Dr Jim says:

    Now that the media and the Tories have engineered the situation they wanted, right on cue the media will begin to reverse it’s position (down south) and create a new situation for themselves to concern the public with

    Irish terrorism and Scottish insurrection will become the talking point as the Brexit situation flatlines for a week or two, so they’ll be making up their minds in news rooms and press offices as to how to stimulate this new worrying prospect that doesn’t worry anybody

    What we think or want is immaterial, no country is bigger than the unelected media manipulators and purveyors of untruth

    In Scotland the BBC will ramp up the hatred of the SNP and STV not to be outdone will follow along so’s not to lose viewers
    This will turn into a media saliva fest with us as the entree

    Isn’t it fun to be governed by arsehole “journalists” that nobody ever voted for and nobody will ever get rid of because they need them to punt the messages they want sold to the bewildered public and all of it aimed at destroying one country’s future in favour of another

  235. Feel_loon says:

    That was just incredible
    So many contiditions and not challenged once

  236. Tam the Bam. says:

    Brexit-What Next?

    There you have it!!!…..The people of Scotland voted in 2014….

    Totally disregard of the Scottish Parliaments will.

  237. Inbhir Anainn says:

    1956 – 61% of my life has been under a Tory Government how sad.

  238. Legerwood says:

    Arbroath1320 says:
    29 March, 2017 at 7:19 pm
    Just had a wee look at currency exchanges and it looks like the £ has fallen by roughly half a cent against both the Dollar and the Euro since around 12 noon today.””


    The pound was actually up at 1.26 (just) at the start of the week. At one point today it was within a shade of dropping to 1.23. Probably going to oscillate about that level for a time. Depends on what comes out of the negotiations – or inflation rate announcement in a few weeks time.

  239. Gary45% says:

    I had the misfortune to hear a wee bit of Shortbread this morning.(I heard K wi an E was discussing Indy)
    I am sure I heard Mr Buchan say his area voted to leave the EU, and Lesley Riddoch corrected him, if he is spouting this lie to all his wee ” deep sea skate fanciers”, then I think he has only vested interests for himself and his ilk.
    I will sit back and watch him squeal when the English Empire shaft him big style.
    Scotland getting any worthy powers from Westminster??
    “Fishing etc” DELUSIONAL. Then again he is a Failed TORY.”
    If I am wrong, I will stand corrected.

  240. Vestas says:

    @cearc says 7:14 pm :

    “R4 seem to be bigging up ‘our huge contribution’ to security intelligence etc.

    It crosses my mind that is not a lot of it dependent on our ‘listening’ operations in Cyprus and Malta?”

    Not really. The facilities on Cyprus under UK control are ancient. Israel provides the ESM for that area mainly.

    Malta? Why? Radar maybe but ELINT/ESM? Nope.

    The security intel is because UK is one of the chosen few who not only receive data from the NSA – we contibute data/compromises at a higher level than any other EU country.

    That was pre-Trump. While it isn’t going to die in a fire the relationship between USA and EU intel services has changed irrevocably in the last 5 years. They don’t trust the NSA & why should they?

    The UK’s “we have all your data” hand has weakened because nobody trusts Trump. Without NSA then GCHQ are only of use for UK traffic – they currently record the last 3 months traffic transiting the UK (encrypted traffic is stored forever, or until broken).

    The sainted Theresa is about 6 years late on these threats.

    The rest of the English tories are 60 years late on reality so +1 to Theresa and -100 for a threat.

  241. Tam the Bam. says:

    Brexit-What Next?


    Andrew Neil’s sycophantic interview with the PM

    Gordon Brewers ‘hairdrier’ interview with Mike Russel…..oh god….here comes Kez.

  242. mike d says:

    How can any ‘proudscotbuts with half a spine put up with this insulting and derogatory sh**e towards them and their nation?.

  243. Arbroath1320 says:

    I agree Ledgerwood, it will be like a wee bouncy ball but over the longer term it will fall towards parity and below.

  244. Feel_loon says:

    This is incredible
    Kez totally clueless now wee willie is on

    Feck me

    I am gobsmacked at how folk put up with this shite

    Feeble mandate etc ffs

  245. James Barr Gardner says:

    O/T (Google ref.)

    The Dissolution of the Monasteries, sometimes referred to as the Suppression of the Monasteries, was the set of administrative and legal processes between 1536 and 1541 by which Henry VIII disbanded Catholic monasteries, priories, convents and friaries in England, Wales and Ireland, appropriated their income, disposed of their assets, and reassigned or dismissed their former members and functions.

    Although the policy was originally envisaged as increasing the regular income of the Crown, much former monastic property was sold off to fund Henry’s military campaigns in the 1540s.

    He was given the authority to do this in England and Wales by the Act of Supremacy, passed by Parliament in 1534, which made him Supreme Head of the Church in England, thus separating England from Papal authority, and by the First Suppression Act (1536) and the Second Suppression Act (1539).


    The similarities between the Suppression of the Monasteries and Brexit is striking;

    The care/hospitals,schools previously in the community today the NHS in England/Wales/NI is on a downward spiral. Only those with money to pay for it in a fully privatized model will be okay.

    Wealth from assets sold off going on foreign wars and of course a sizable chunk going to the Westminster elite, who yet again will profit whilst the vast majority of the populace will be worse off.

    The profits of auctioned off UK family silver ending up in the hands of the Westminster elite, no surprise.

    The demonizing of foreigners and all things foreign, jingoistic mantra pushed by brittish media monopoly.

    The dogma of fortress UK isolated from the continent of Europe being sold fraudulently to the UK voters as a lottery.

    Theresa May is an egotistical, harsh,dictatorial and insecure PM, with a city of Westminster narrow outlook.

    Anyone in the way of this titanic change in the UK (WW1 & WW2 aside) which incidentally is the biggest in the last 500 years will be smeared, libeled, threatened, lied to, bullied, in other words just plain nasty dirty tricks.

    As for acts of supremacy given a chance those too will becoming along in the pipeline; Scotland/NI/Wales re-designated as regions, all seas around UK are the property of the English state and the Crown.

  246. Jim Morris says:

    I was born Feb 1949, the NHS founding Labour lasted till October 51. Sadly Wilson (twice) and Callaghan were both Empire rulers who oppressed the Chagossians on Diego Garcia for a discount on Polaris nuclear subs and missiles to keep Britain “Great” and at the top table. The New Labour antics of Blair and Brown disqualify them as Left Wing. So, sadly in 68 years I have been ruled by Tories of Red/Blue/Yellow except for the first 2.8 years of my life = 4% of my life.

  247. Capella says:

    @ Arbroath 1320 – I think they released the news about the mammoth oil find to bolster the pound this week. Can’t see any other reason for it. Remember Jim Rogers on Bloomberg predicting that, if Scotland leaves the UK it will take its oil with it and the pound will drop to 80 cents:

  248. Rock says:

    Bob Mack,

    “What then if Nicola applied to the EU courts to decide on our democratic right as a Sovereign people to hold a referendum? They are after all the legal authority for the next two years.”

    The EU cannot and will not interfere in the UK’s internal matters as long as the UK remains a member of the EU for the next 2 years.

    As I predicted previously, Scotland will be ignored by both the UK and the EU.

    The only way for Scotland to be heard by anyone other than our only declared friend Iceland is to get a Yes majority in an independence referendum.

    The sooner the better.

    Will the First Minister insist on her timetable or will she accept Saint Theresa’s timetable for a referendum?

  249. ChewinTheFat says:

    57% for me.

    Right that’s it! C’mon Scotland, get yer arse in gear and vote YES!!!

    No longer should we stand to have a government we did not vote for rule us!

  250. defo says:

    “Now is not the time. WTF are we supposed to negotiate with if you sweaties jump ship ?”

    56% from the accursed year of 1966

  251. Jock McDonnell says:

    Quite dejected today, not as bad as 19th September, but still really disappointed.
    Why ? Because again, for the umpteenth time, and very seriously at that, Scotland gets what England wants & we seem just to suck it right up.
    Raging that while the ‘peace process’ gets a mention in the letter, important as it is, we are not deserving of similar consideration & our votes count for nothing in Westminster’s eyes. They are a shower of self serving hypocrits & we are a pack of cowering beggars.
    Still, this feeling will pass I hope when I next go campaigning, pity not enough Scots seem angry enough to agree – so far anyway.

  252. Rock says:


    “I’m trying to understand what the problem is with referring to Mundell as a ‘beard muncher’ and why it is so offensive? Ma understanding is that Vestas is literally referring to him in his capacity as one who eats any remaining food missed by his mooth lodged in his beard?”

    In my humble opinion, not only is the act itself disgusting, any mention or discussion of it is equally if not more disgusting.

  253. Bob Mack says:

    You couldn’t make it up. Kezia Dugdale re tweets Carwyn Jones the First Minister of Wales who feels that article 50 should not have proceeded because Mrs May had not consulted the devolved administrations.

    She actually is galactically stupid.

  254. jfngw says:

    We’re all talking about a federal solution apparently, all over the country. How have I missed out on this or should I not believe Kezia Dugdale.

    Kezia, friend of Hillary who’s slogan was ‘Stronger Together’, which seems to have morphed into ‘Together Stronger’ for Labour. Maybe someone should tell them Clinton lost.

  255. Artyhetty says:


    Yep, it can be the only explanation for the £ going up, I was very suspicious of that announcement this morning. It is something which everyone in Scotland should be aware of. Scotland has propped up the UK. That is serious stuff, that a neighbouring country has taken Scotland’s oil, squandered the proceeds and continues to do so, now with huge bells on.

    Scotland, please escape before it’s too late. EU nationals, please do not listen to the media lies, you have a vote to ensure that Scotland is a 21st century, prosperous, forward looking country, where everyone is considered a valid and crucial part or our society.

    The unionists would have many people in Scotland denied a vote, we mustn’t let them away with denying that democratic right to all of those who choose to make Scotland their home. They tried it last time, but this time, their lies and hatred have been exposed.

  256. Rock says:


    “Why do we never hear from the Scottish legal system whatever it’s proper title is. Have we no legal representation of our own. Where do they stand.”

    The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

    The twat Wolff’s loyalty is to the UK establishment, not to Scotland.

  257. DerekM says:

    Jings you would think someone would have told those daft tories that A50 is not a trade deal or in anyway negotiable lol

    May :- i would like this…. EU :- no you will sign this and get the feck out our parliament and then we will talk trade.

    Oh and Scotland and N Ireland get a say have a nice day 🙂

    BOOOOOM constitutional mushroom cloud.

  258. Arbroath1320 says:

    I think the new oil news will bolster the sagging £ for a short period of time Capella but as Jim Rodgers is predicting after we leave the UK, and yes I really do believe we WILL leave this time, we will take our oil with us an then the £ will plummet seriously South. I think he is predicting to around 80 cents. In all honesty I would not be surprised to see it fall even lower over time.

  259. heedtracker says:

    The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.”

    A lot of countries say that about their lawyers Rock. Look at the great Lionel Hutz in the Simpsons, Saul Goodman in Breaking Bad and so on.

    Be interesting to see why you think Scots lawyers are all rotten to the core Rock?

  260. mike d says:

    Agree rock,we need legal eagles in the Scottish justice system to step up to the mark,and start making our case . but as you say,they are probably all in westmiddens pocket.

  261. Glamaig says:

    I think rather than numbers of years under a Tory government, more relevant is the number of times it actually mattered a fuck if anybody in Scotland even turned out to vote in a UK election.

    As far as I know its once, a Labour Government which lasted 8 months in 1974?

    Not forgetting the 0.7% of House of Commons votes where it made any difference if Scottish MPs were there.

  262. Nana says:

    Lawyers for Yes are still around

  263. Whitegold says:

    I can remember turning 16 or 17, shed loads of us leaving school when Mrs Thatcher was at the peak of her powers, no jobs, no apprenticeships- that door well slammed shut, hopelessness and misery all around- plenty of my mates went to London looking for work- bedsits and menial jobs.
    Yet many of them returned and voted for the Union in indyref14. Many were unemployed for yonks during the late 70s and early 80s and were given really raw deals by successive Westminster governments but would vote ‘No’ tomorrow.
    The soft spoken May with her precious Union mantra and her convincing ‘we are all in it together’ tripe strikes the right notes with so many up here.
    Add pumping Unionist better together style media into homes 24/7 leads me to believe they cannot lose.
    Where do we start with this?

  264. Phronesis says:

    Brexit begins –a procurement process that will be characterised at WM by opaque strategies,inefficiency, regulatory and political capture, protectionism and the development of cartels – in other words turbo charged extreme conservatism.

    Meanwhile yesterday in that minor entity at the north of Britain there was a hostile, visceral response from the elected representatives of democracy in our national democratic institution about a democratic process that ensures Scotland’s place as a thriving, outward looking internationalist country. Commiserations to those affiliated to the Slab/LibDem/Tory combo who would like to be part of a European Scotland.The alarming levels of angst and outpouring of negative emotion represents deep seated fears about Scotland’s ability to become self-governing. We are told ‘Sit down Scotland and lose that embarrassing parochial accent’ presumably because there is a belief that the democratic insignificance of Scotland at WM is a preferable option.

    Scotland is now going to be bombarded with veiled/overt threats and promises full of ambiguity about its future by the Better Together 2 campaign ‘Misdirection’ with their new record playing in a continuous loop ‘Stockholm Syndrome’. Ordering us to be thankful that we retain our minion status in the re-fashioned Empire -trading in jam, biscuits and other sought after global commodities.

    But Scotland is standing up and speaking with one eclectic accentual voice. Scotland will remain in Europe as a self –governing nation, but perhaps for the sake of the collective wellbeing of the nation remove the verbal triggers that tend to incite behaviours in those opposed to Scotref that can only be described as indicative of oppositional conduct disorder. Desensitisation therapy would suggest perhaps a vote for Independence is framed by a proxy measure-do we want to live in Scotland the country or Scotland the regional doormat?

  265. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Mundell should be removed by his constituents – he, along with Ruth D and all other Remain-supporting BTUKOKers, swore blind that a ‘No’ vote in 2014 was the only way to stay in the EU.

    He then compounded the offence by lying that ‘everyone’ knew a Brexit referendum was in the offing before we voted in the GE last year. No-one ‘knew’ any such thing, and there’s voluminous evidence proving so.

    His constituents were sold a dud – is it technically possible for them to get him bagged? They should be utterly ashamed of having foisted this gutless fud on the nation, and do anything they can to make amends – the very idea that anyone, anywhere sees Mundell as ‘representing’ Scotland makes my flesh crawl.

  266. Arbroath1320 says:

    Interesting series of tweets here from a guy who was a former SPAD and is editor of Conservative Home.

  267. Of course this is refuted by Unionists by way of not recognizing Scotland as a country but just a region of England

  268. Robert Graham says:

    Capella thanks for the Bloomberg link with Jim Rodgers it was a joy to see one of the woman scrambling about trying to come up with reasons why Scotland couldn’t leave the Union ha ha talk about panic when is suddenly dawned on her she was supposed to counter Jim Rodgers comment that the pound could bottom out at 80 cents if we left , I have noticed comments over the last few months from commentators on the money markets they are more or less satisfied we are gone its just a matter of time once they like the bookies call it, its only a matter of time .They will be planning for what happens next .

  269. Somebody has just suggested that Labour in Scotland committed suicide in the Scottish Parliament yesterday.
    Quite a feat – committing suicide twice.

  270. Terry says:

    Make no mistake the tories are blocking a referendum for scotland until we are out of Europe. Then they will abolish holyrood because without eu protection they would do that in a heartbeat. They can’t risk losing scotland.

    I hope nicola has a plan.

  271. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 21:27,

    Well, you know the old saying: “practice makes perfect”! =grin=

  272. Capella says:

    @ Robert Graham – yes it was a treat to hear Jim Rogers’ replies as well. He seemed amused by their ignorance of the actuality.
    But I can’t take the credit for finding it – it was one of Nana’s links from the previous thread, I think.

  273. schrodingers cat says:

    quite a day
    so what did we learn? and what do we do now?

    forlean avoided listing our options now that WM has blocked the section 30, although he did rule out a indyref2 without WM agreement. good. unionsts would boycott it and the eu would ignore the result too

    there are of course legal routes, via the scottish courts maybe e’en the eu courts, which might help us stall for time

    we hae some nuclear options available, withdraw mps, dissolve holyrood etc, but even if we agreed a compact with the greens to wipe out the unionist list mps, we are still only 48% in the polls
    i sense anger on the doorsteps from the unionsts and fatigue from the yessers. we will see the comparative turn out in may.

    the eu will help NI, but no mention of scotland, dont kid yersels folks, we need to do this ourselves.

    but it isnt all bad, the eu has said no trade deal, so the uk will move to wto tariffs but a 3 year transition will lessen the effect of the drop in 2 years when this happens

    treeza is now indicating they will pay the 60bn,

    Our best bet is if treeza storms out in the autumn, wto rules will kick in, and the economic pain will be sharp, support for yes will rise,

    we wait

  274. caz-m says:

    Arbroath 1320

    Ruthie Davidson on QT tomorrow night, that’ll be a hard watch.

    An obvious BBC set-up, run Scotland into the ground.

    She loves nothin better than looking straight into the camera and telling the world how shite Scotland is.

  275. Rock says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    “Mundell should be removed by his constituents – he, along with Ruth D and all other Remain-supporting BTUKOKers, swore blind that a ‘No’ vote in 2014 was the only way to stay in the EU.

    He then compounded the offence by lying that ‘everyone’ knew a Brexit referendum was in the offing before we voted in the GE last year. No-one ‘knew’ any such thing, and there’s voluminous evidence proving so.

    His constituents were sold a dud – is it technically possible for them to get him bagged? They should be utterly ashamed of having foisted this gutless fud on the nation, and do anything they can to make amends – the very idea that anyone, anywhere sees Mundell as ‘representing’ Scotland makes my flesh crawl.”

    Lying by politicians is perfectly legal in the United Kingdom.

    Carmichael’s constituents were unable to remove him.

    Do you seriously believe that Mundell’s constituents would succeed in removing him?

    In case you or anyone else has forgotten, Mundell got re-elected because the Greens, cheered on by The National, stood a candidate against the SNP and split the pro-independence vote.

  276. caz-m says:

    How you doin Ian Brotherhood.

    The Troll is fishing for you, don’t bite mate.

  277. Stoker says:

    Scottish Borders Council prospective candidates list for 4 May 2017:

  278. Tormod Caol says:

    gus1940 says:
    29 March, 2017 at 6:57 pm
    BBC Scotland are making extensive use of Jimmy Buchan today – on KayE and being interviewed on Misreporting Scotland.

    However, they seem strangely reluctant to remind us that he is a Tory failed election candidate.
    When Jimmy sends home all the EU (and non-EU) citizens he employs, where is he going to find a crew for his boat?

  279. Arbroath1320 says:

    Sorry peeps couldn’t resist posting thsi here.

    Coming soon to a spelling Bee near you.

    Quizmaster: Spell “incompetent”

    Contestant: “L a b o u r ”

    Quizmaster: correct!

  280. Roughian says:

    Mayhem interview with Andrew Neil.

    I’m years behind most of you on this site on seeing through the shite that is spouted by politicians and my missus is probably still in the Jurassic period.However even she noticed how May avoided/couldn’t answer the soft questions Neil put to her.

    That thing May does dropping both sides of her mouth and then a little twitch on the right when under pressure, and under pressure she was not. Are things are beginning to get to her?

  281. mike cassidy says:

    Here’s Jim Rogers telling the BBC

    Note the stupidity of Mardell saying to someone with no vote in this country that what he is saying is just an example of bad loser syndrome.

    That got booted right back!

  282. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @caz-m –

    Cheers brother, yer message was timely.


  283. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    O/T Apologies, but it’s late in the thread and of interest to many, I imagine…

    Glasgow City ward summary is to be found at:

    and the full candidate details per ward is to be found at:

  284. Liz g says:

    Heedtracker @ 8.58
    Ma theory is …
    Sumbudy Leagal did or discussed something disgusting with him at wan time and he still ain’t over it.

    By the way Heedtracker wasn’t it wonderful to hear Nicola Sayin that the Scottish People are Sovereign… I mean we all knew fine well they are….But still!!!

  285. Feel_loon says:

    Watching the Beeb st 10

    I must be wired up wrang

    That Katia addler just spoke the biggest pile of pish I’ve ever heard

    Seriously deluded

  286. heedtracker says:

    By the way Heedtracker wasn’t it wonderful to hear Nicola Sayin that the Scottish People are Sovereign… I mean we all knew fine well they are….But still!!!”

    It was. In Nicola I trust. She’s away to the US soon, hopefully for a good break from all the yoon hysteria going on, majority tory too. Its been like watching an escape from a loony bin full of tories so far. No matter how hard we don’t vote tory in Scotland, they still reign supreme though.

    California here Nic comes…

  287. jfngw says:

    After watching Dugdale with G.Brewer I’m convinced she is turning into Jim Murphy but without his charisma.

    Someone also needs to take her twitter account away or at least tell her to heed the words of Mark Twain.

    Also Rennie demands a second referendum and blocking of a second referendum within same interview, the Rennie plan?

  288. caz-m says:

    I hope Nicola has time in the USA to relax and recharge her batteries.

    Away and enjoy yourself Nicola, we’ll look effter the hoose fur ye.

  289. HandandShrimp says:


    I think Paul Nuttalls of the UKIPS is on QT tomorrow too, plus some random free market person, a Labour MP I confess I have never heard of and Len McLuskey

    I don’t feel compelled to watch.

  290. YERKITBREEKS says:

    Today is one of the saddest of my life – nothing to do with being richer or poorer, but the fact that up until 1945 we Europeans were at one another’s throats every 20 years, and since the formation of what became the EU, we’ve had peace for 60 years.

    Shame on the Little Englanders.

  291. mike d says:

    Scotland,wha’s like us.gey few and they are aw f***ing laughing at us. No voters do you do shame?

  292. Brian McHugh says:

    I don’t care if England always vote for the Tory’s… I only care that for 100% of my life, I have never been ruled by Scotland.

    That is what needs changing.

  293. heedtracker says:

    I don’t feel compelled to watch.

    Imagine what its like being a DUP, Green, Plaid Cymru voting BBC QT viewer and in swings Dr Nuttall. Last time I saw Dr Niuttal on QT, he was shouting Scots just take and take and take and take. So should be fun watching the goon going vote NO nuts, backed up by Ruth D.

  294. Cactus says:

    Aweright caz-m ~

    Good to see ye again bro.

    Was a pleasure to play.

    Glad you enjoyed and cheers for keeping a roof over ma heid!

  295. stewartb says:

    The posts above regarding Jim Rogers comments on the likely impact of Scottish independence on the value of Sterling appears to be consistent with my post on an earlier thread. There I drew attention to the UK’s import dependency regarding oil ( ).

    Currently c. 35% import dependency, upon Scottish independence this will rise to nearly 100% as the rump of the UK loses most of the North Sea’s and all of the future Atlantic Margin’s oil as an indigenous UK resource. This needs to be placed in the context of the UK’s current, large international trade deficit plus the short to medium term trade uncertainties introduced by BREXIT.

    I suggested earlier that it is this major impact on the rUK’s balance of trade rather than the tax take on the offshore oil industry that will ensure that all that can be done to prevent Scottish independence will be done – by fair means or foul.

  296. Feel_loon says:

    Ok can someone please explain to me this
    Been watching most channels tonight and the line is constant that the uk wants a no tariff free trade deal
    How can that be possible
    If I leave my golf club and still want to play the course I have to pay a visitors fee
    Why do the uk think if they leave the club they can play the course for free

  297. manandboy says:

    stewartb says:“I suggested earlier that it is this major impact on the rUK’s balance of trade rather than the tax take on the offshore oil industry that will ensure that all that can be done to prevent Scottish independence will be done – by fair means or foul.”

    This is the very core reality that we are confronted with and which we have been fully aware of since 2012. The fact that it is not widely accepted is due to the deaf & blind factor, as well as the obvious fact that no one in British politics dare utter a word on the subject.

  298. manandboy says:

    Another day of Theresa May ‘bafflespeak’.

    But yet again, behind the words she uses, can be heard what her position is. She is like the slave owner who has received word that the abolition of slavery is on its way, and not wishing to lose the wealth her slaves provide, she tries to persuade them through bribes and threats to stay on the plantation and reject freedom. Her final card is to tell them she won’t let them go free.

    Some negotiators have written that the first rule in negotiation is to know what your opponent wants. Well Scotland, listen up, Theresa May and her preciousssss Union don’t want you, but she is fiercely determined to retain control of Scotlands oil, plus all the rest of Scotland’s natural wealth.

    So what are we going to do about it?

  299. Nana says:


    For anyone who missed the programme earlier.

    BBCOne: “Brexit – What Next?” PM with Andrew Neil, avoiding every key question

    BBC ONE: “Brexit – What Next?” Michael Russell on PM interview and #indyref2 strategy

    ans a couple of articles for night owls.

    Brexit negotiator Guy Verhofstadt attacks Theresa May’s ‘threat’ to weaken EU security commitments

    It’s been a hell of a day folks.

  300. Legerwood says:

    This appeared on my Facebook page. It is a complaint against reporting Scotland and it’s report on GERS last year. The complaint has been upheld

  301. ben madigan says:

    @ schrodingers cat who said “the eu will help NI”

    The EU may well help NI but NI’s situation is different to Scotland’s –
    *It’s backed up by a UN registered treaty – the good friday/Belfast Agreement. UK interference is limited by the terms of the treaty and the EU’s role is guaranteed in certain crucial respects

    *There’s the potential for a land border with another EU country – the republic of ireland – which most irish people (north and south) reject, given the problems Partition has caused over the past 100 odd years.
    Should the issue of an EU frontier develop along the Scottish-English border, it would not partition Scotland and would not have connotations of years of violence and civil strife. So how many Scots would reject it? And why would they?

    * For what it’s worth – as far back as 1990, the UK stated it had no”selfish strategic or economic interest” in Northern Ireland and would accept unification, if the people wished it.
    I don’t think any UK govt has made a similar declaration about Scotland.Please correct me if I am wrong here.

    * Should the push come to the shove I doubt the people in the ROI would refuse Re-Unification, no matter how disinterested they have been in the plight of Northern irish under UK domination since the partition of Ireland in the early 1920s

    Having said all that Scotland has its own Aces to play –
    *The EU will not abandon Scots who wish to remain EU citizens
    * Think of the kudos for the EU should it manage to hold on to Scotland
    * Scotland can bring oil, economic, scientific, tourism, agricultural interests etc to the EU table. So it is by no means a dead loss (despite UK propaganda!!) and could make a great contribution to the EU – moneywise and philosophically and social policy- wise

    The difficulty for Scotland:
    At present Scotland is only part of the UK and can’t negotiate on her own behalf or make her voice heard.
    So Scotland needs to play her cards well –
    1)SNP grand slam in the forthcoming Council elections and
    2) a successful IndyRef2 before the UK exits (within FM Sturgeon’s time frame of autumn 2018-spring 2019) or flounces out of negotiations (6-week space to organise and win IndyRef2).

    In the ultimate analysis NI and Scotland have different cards to play but both are moving towards the same aim – independence from the UK within the EU (which an independent Scotland can ratify further down the line).

    I am convinced that each and everyone of us has a part to play in achieving these goals for Scotland- no matter how small and insignificant our role may seem – and I am confident each and every Scots man and woman will step up to the plate when the time comes

  302. ian m says:

    It seems that the EU have screwed up England and Scotland by announcing that they will not negotiate until after the “parting” has been resolved
    2 years to finalize the parting
    3 years to negotiate the new arrangement
    1-3 years to see how “good” it is for the UK
    Referendum Best case scenario 2023
    Am I missing something?

  303. Swami Backverandah says:

    If there’s a threat to the security of Theresa May and her well-heeled cohorts, they’ll be spirited away to a safe bunker, but your security, you ordinary citizens, is a bargaining chip.

    You are pawns, of no consequence.


  304. Effijy says:

    Some of the contradictions that we see today from the Westminster parties includes:

    1, We are better together, other than being together involves being united in the EU.

    2, Scotland doesn’t want to take control back from Westminster, but England wants to take control back from the EU.

    3, If Scotland comes out of Europe, all the Finance houses will relocate. Same story for England then!

    4, Scotland would have no trade deals, well England isn’t going to have any trade deals and they are taking us with them.

    5, There would be no old age pension if Scotland became independent. Well the Tories have added 7 years on to my wife’s retirement age, and now are preparing us for retirement at 70, and if that isn’t enough 75.
    In a country with a low life expectancy, that means no pension.

    6, There would be no Scottish NHS. As we see everyone outside the Tory party agrees that NHS England is now broken, there will be further funding cuts, people are dying every day in England due to neglect, and more basic treatments are being denied or privatised.
    That is not what the NHS stands for!

    7, The Tories love Scotland we were told? That might be why they tried to Con us out of £7 Billion over the next 10 years, reneged on Home Rule, and do not recognise
    the sovereign right of our own elected parliament.

    Never trust a liar because that is all that they do!

  305. Still Positive says:

    What I am beyond raging about is Theresa May saying to Angus Robertson that her constituency voted ‘Remain’ and we were leaving. Angus then pointed out that Scotland was a country and tried to get her to acknowledge that.

    She replied that, “Scotland is a constituent part of the UK.”

    She has reduced us to no more than a constituency or, at best, a region.

    Better get out asap.

  306. Stoker says:

    Right, that’s all 32 Council areas covered. Time to get to work folks and plan your voting intentions and then spread the word around your own area/ward. Let’s try and get rid of as many of these Unionist lackeys as we possibly can. We can but try….

    G’night troops!

  307. defo says:

    Great work Stoker.

  308. K1 says:

    Thanks Stoker and Robert JS 🙂

  309. Still Positive says:

    Good work Stoker.

    Now know my ward has 3 SNP, 3 Ind and 2 Lab.

    Need to find out the background of the Inds through the local grapevine before I vote for them.

  310. Smallaxe says:

    “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because the law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”

    Thomas Jefferson

    Peace Always

  311. Valerie says:

    @Ben Madigan 11.40pm

    Good analysis of NI situation, which we have to accept is unique. I believe the EU treaty relevant to the Belfast agreement provides for a reunification with RoI, so it was foreseen that a partitioned country might seek that.

    I’ve seen various Irish sources saying its coming, and they should prepare.

    Its significant that in the first written response, Tusk has pointed out many in UK voted to Remain, and NI and Scotland had a majority.

    I think that’s good, because its a subtle hint that EU might support or recognise those separate groups. As many speculate, they might support us just to spite May. Objectively, they would be daft not to support us, given our strategic position, and wealth.

  312. TheWealthofNations says:

    Are we counting the Blair years as Labour then?

  313. Golfnut says:

    Seems to be a wee bit negativity over the EU agenda and timescale regarding Brexit negotiations. Nicola has never at anytime been less than precise in the language used regarding her methodology and timescale regarding the referendum.
    No matter how much of a surprise the EU response has apparently been to Westminster and the media, I somehow don’t believe its a surprise to the SG.
    Blundell and the rest chuntering on about refusing or blocking the referendum is no more than a prepared response to Tuesday’s Section 30 vote. Meanwhile Nicola has set out her next move and when it will be actioned should May refuse to agree terms.
    The SG aren’t playing games here.

  314. ChewinTheFat says:

    Cheers, Stoker 🙂

  315. Still Positive. says:

    Thanks Stoker for that info. Now know my council ward has 3 SNP, 3 IND and 2 Lab.

    Will have to check out the INDs via the local grapevine.

    Hope others will do likewise.

  316. Col says:

    We really need to educate the masses of why Westminster desperately wants to keep a hold of scotlands resources. Our trade surplus v’s England’s massive trade deficit. Without our oil the pound is no longer a petro currency. When folk see the truth of the matter and they continue with the we’re too poor pish they might just realise they do have a backbone after all and stick two up to our abusive neighb

  317. gus1940 says:

    Valerie @1.08

    Re your last para.

    Wouldn’t it be great to see WM on the receiving end of their own favourite well worn tactic of Divide and Rule.

  318. mike cassidy says:

    Early morning read which sheds more light on the Irish question.

    Could NI go before Scotland?

  319. Hamish100 says:

    BBC GMS londonium correspondent telling what Scotland will do with brexit. Nice of him to tell us . Agriculture- we don’t need to change our laws as we are just like the rest of England.

    Don’t we know it.

  320. Capella says:

    Excellent analysis of GERS figures and bias involved. Richard Murphy clearly made of girders and not cowed by the Unionist bile fest.

    Time we had genuine figures to work with. Comment by “Deewill” describes the sleight of hand well.

  321. Marker Post says:

    The difference between EU and UK:

    “Tusk said he would share a proposed formal response from the council to the UK with the other member states on Friday and that agreement on so-called “guidelines” would be reached at a special summit in a month’s time. “

  322. Ken500 says:

    Teresa May and her associates have terrorised the whole world. Killing and maiming millions of vulnerable innocent people the world over. May and her associates have ruined the world economy. They have got the world into Trns of debt, impoverishing the world world. So criminal May and her associates can tax evade and illegally line their pockets with £Billions of embezzled public money. They have cheated and lied to win a Ref. They have cheated and lied to win an Election and chests and lied to Brexit.

    The Tory/Unionists days are numbered as they get called out for what the cheating lying criminals are doing. They do not care about anyone but themselves. The EU menbers are fit for them. Never trust a Tory. The EU will hold them to account and call them out for their corruption, duplicity and lies. May may no even last another two years the way she is going, The incorrible, manipulating liars. The majority in Scotland are sick of the Tory/Unionist and their lies. ‘Pycho bastards’. Their own description. The Westminster total corruption and criminality. Evil and bad never wins,

    Scotland has it’s Referendum to look forward to and win. To finally end the Tory/Unionist corruption in Scotland. The EU administration will put May and the rest of the evil, lying warmongers in their place. For Scotland Brexit is a blessing in disguise. It just becomes easier to win and get back Scotland’s sovereignty. Independence in the EU for fairness, equality, justice prosperity and happiness. Just like most European countries.

    When will the electoral system in Scotland be changed. The electoral system is a shambles. That many voters do not even understand. The fact that people have to vote for candidates and Parties they can’t stand. The sight of them make people feel physically sick. Useless troughers who illegally waste £Million/Billions of public money and starve people to death, in a world of plenty. The regurgitatedd 3rd rate rejects. The voters can’t get rid of them. A revolving door of repulsion.

    Voters do not even understand the system, They have to vote for candidates and Parties they detest just to get the candidate/Party they support voted in. Many voters do not even know that fact. It is just unbelievable. How on earth is that democracy. Or in any way democratic. No wonder people are put off voting. Believing their vote is useless. When they go out to vote and a troughing, corrupt, smug liar who they can’t stand gets in. On some incomprehensible, weird voting system.

    Either it should be change so it works more fairly, or back FPTP which the majority of voters support. They do not like these PR systems with good reason. The 3rd rate rejects get elected. A regurgitated pig, monkey or donkey with a rosette on. Making a mockery of democracy. 1 to 6 in order of ranking. For candidates /Party’s the majority of the voters detest. What kind of voting system is that. Voting for abject criminal Parties.

    The moment Scotland Infependence was won. Davidson telling Nicola to ‘sit down’. May’s intransigence. Aye Scotland has for far to long had Tory rule. The people did not vote for it. Now the opportunity to change that is in sight. It has finally come. Let’s go for it. Let’s do it.

    Westminster is just a sin bin. Scotland being shafted time and time again by criminal abusive Parties in Westminster. Most of them should be in jail for crimes against humanity and breaking the Law. May and her colleagues included. That is not democracy at all. They can disregard people in Scotland’s wishes because their votes are not needed to get into power at Westminster. A polical and democratic deficit.

  323. DerekM says:

    @ Stoker

    Nice one Stoker.

    Falkirk North ward 4/4 to be elected from 6 – SNP 1 and 2,green 3.

    Question on this ward is should the 1 tory be placed 4th in an attempt to weaken the Labour council group we have to get one out the 2 slabbers or 1 tory and it is the slabbers we need to reduce in numbers or they will join forces with the tories again?

  324. Ken500 says:

    Another BBC ill researched lackey? Who doesn’t realise England and Scotland have a different Legal system guaranteed forever. Under the terms of Act of Union. Which cannot be changed without agreement. Or it breaks the terms. Dissolves the Union. When will they ever learn? Breaking International Law. Human rights Law and the right to self determination under the UN treaty guarantees. The BBC charter breaks the Law of impartiality and non bias. Complicit with Westminster ministers who break the Law and the Ministrial conduct code. They commit electoral fraud. Boycott the BBC. Be selective. No listeners/viewers No programmes.

    The Oil & Gas sector is definitely picking up. The helicopter flights are increasing.

  325. TheItalianJob says:


    I so much like and reading you continuous blogs on this site.

    Hits home with the true facts everytime.

    Keep up the good work.

    Let’s hope it all works out well for Scotland and the people wake up to the reality that the only future for Scotland is an Independent one.

  326. AndyH says:

    I’be been watching ‘Rebellion’ on Netflix.

    Bloody good watch. I never knew anything about this time period in Ireland.

    As a child I must have received the British propaganda version of history.

  327. TheItalianJob says:

    @Robert Peffers

    I was wondering Robert where we stand at the moment to conduct Indyref2.

    Can we call the date and just hand the papers to the WM (T May) to sign and then proceed.
    If she doesn’t where does Scotland stand constitutionally.

    Can the EU start giving Scotland some assurances that if we were going to be Independent we would be given a fast track entry into Europe.

    I would very much appreciate your views as you are our best knowledgable constitutional expert on Wings and I always appreciate your input on constitutional matters.

    I look forward to getting your views on this.


  328. Ken500 says:

    Tesco criminalises shoplifters.

    Tesco financial directors embezzled £Millions of public money to line their own pockets. They broke the Law on fraud and false accounting. Graft and corruption. They faced a trial but did not go to jail. Tesco paid £213Millions in fines. The consumers paid the price. How to commit crime and get away with it.

    Do Tescos’ fund the Tory Party? Did they come out against Independence for Scotland at the behest of Cameron. Along with retailers who broke the Purdah rules at the request of the Tories.

    People can chose where to shop.

  329. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good Morning,

    Another dull wet day, I’ve ordered an Ark from Amazon and I’ve got my eye on a Unicorn that will be coming home SOON!. Thank You for your links. Kettle’s on!

    Peace Always

  330. Nana says:

    Good morning Smallaxe. Not too bad here right now, sun breaking through. Keep a wee space reserved for me in the Ark aand make sure the unicorn is toilet trained!

    Couple more links and if you missed them I posted two more at 11.33pm

    European Commission – Fact Sheet
    Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union – Q&A

    Politics Scotland says#
    I urge you to take the time to read the whole draft resolution #Brexit #EU Don’t let others TELL you what’s in it.

  331. TheItalianJob says:


    Good morning and again thanks for the daily links. So much good reading and info.

    Makes my day. 🙂

  332. Breeks says:

    Think this describes your average silent majority No voter?

    *Low self esteem.
    *Emotional and economic dependency.
    *Continued faith and hope abuser will “grow up”.
    *Stress disorders and/or psychosomatic complaints.
    *Accepts blame and guilt for violence or abuse.
    *Socially isolated, eg avoids social interaction, never seems to be alone.
    *Believes social myths about battering.
    *Believes in stereotypical gender roles.
    *Has poor self image.
    *Contemplates or attempts suicide, or self-harms.
    *Participation in pecking-order battering.
    *Appears nervous or anxious.
    *May defend any criticism of abuser.
    *May have repeatedly left, or considered leaving the relationship.

    We often call it Scottish cringe or Jockholm Syndrome, but the above list was taken from a generalised profile of victims of domestic abuse.

    We need a degree of sophistication in our promotion of independence, something that reaches further than stating the obvious, because people in an abusive relationship are often afraid to think rationally and may be unprepared to take obvious steps to escape their abuser.

    Our “Uncle Tams” irritate the hell out of us, because it is they who often articulate the worst derision and cynicism directed at Scotland and all those who want a better Scotland, and seeks to put Scotland in its place. Perhaps there isn’t any hope of reaching them, but we need to consider the wider spectrum of Unionist.

    Look at the list; “may defend criticism of the abuser”.

    It’s a conditioned response. All the observations in the list are conditioned responses. Abused people are conditioned by the abuse. There is mechanism at work here more complex than selling a political point of view about Independence.

    We don’t need to merely win the pro Independence arguments, that’s the easy bit. We somehow need to provide abuse counselling for people who may be reluctant to listen, just like a victim of domestic abuse who refuses to leave her partner.

    Our “No to Yes” advocates, our “come on in, the water is lovely” brigade could be a vital component of our ScotRef campaign. It is those who had doubts who are best placed to hold other doubters by the hand. There is life beyond the abuse, and it warms you forever.

  333. Ken500 says:

    Just folk funding and helping Rev Stu out.

    Rev Stu is just brilliant and does the hard slog. Thanks a billion. Thanks for the opportunity to get and let it out. Keeps people sane. In a insane situation.

    Folk like Nana, Mr Robert Peffers contribute so much as well. Kudos. They have been at it so much longer. Sticking up for folk in Scotland.

    Thanks in every way.

  334. Smallaxe says:


    Plenty of room for you on the Ark, room for all of us but we have to stop arguing with each other, it puts the geese off the lay and we all want that big Golden Egg of independence.

    The enemy is weakening, let’s all concentrate on making it extinct in Scotland.

    These people can not even invoke an article, they have to “Trigger” it. Shows the difference in our thinking to theirs, don’t you think?

    Peace Always

  335. Nana says:


    Here’s another for you, there’s a lovely photo of Nicola.

    I’m sure the bookies will be only too pleased to take our dosh.

  336. Liam says:

    Argh! I feel so old! I know one of the SNP candidates in my ward and part of me still thinks of him as the young boy he was when I first met him a quarter of a century ago!

  337. manandboy says:

    Severin Carroll, the Guardian’s Scotland editor, doing an excellent impersonation of a BBC news reporter.

  338. TheItalianJob says:


    Thanks for the link. Yes lovely picture of Nicola.

    I followed the betting odds at the last Indyref nearly every day and the odds right upto the week of the vote always favoured the No result as was proven.

    Complete reversal this time around Here’s hoping.

    A Yes vote this would make my life complete.

  339. manandboy says:

    Breeks says:
    “Think this describes your average silent majority No voter?”

    You’re onto something here, Breeks, after all, if the consequences of abuse, as you describe, are to be found in an individual then the same applies to an entire nation.

    It remains true to say that virtually the whole world could not understand the No to Independence result in 2014.
    Psychological damage due to 3 centuries of abuse and 100% unopposed State propaganda may well hold the answers.

  340. TheItalianJob says:


    Thanks for the Guardian link. Spot via-a-vis “impersonation of a BBC reporter”. Can I guess Sarah Smith?

    New devolved powers my **re. Oh I forgot of course more powers for EVEL.

  341. Breeks says:

    I see the Brexiteers are already claiming Angela Merkel’s observation that talks about Britain’s future relationship with the EU cannot begin until the exit talks are concluded is evidence of the EU’s lack of democratic accountability, German dominance, and a primary example of a good reason to exit Europe.

    Kinda strange, because I heard months ago that no re-entry proposals would be discussed until the UK had left the EU.

    Britain still isn’t listening or reading the small print, which isn’t all that small actually.

  342. TheItalianJob says:

    I remember just after the Indy vote in 2014 being on holiday and asked by a Croatian waiter how come your country didn’t vote for Independence as he couldn’t understand that. I couldn’t answer him as there was no rational behind the No vote winning.

    Every other country that had its chance to vote for its Independence from a controlling country that was doing no good to the democracy (or economy for that matter) of that country voted to leave.

    That is all except Scotland. Can’t get my head around that.

  343. Nana says:


    Aye you are right, the unionists have a warlike language they use to full effect. The world is watching, people see those who are the peacemakers and who the antagonists are. Davidson’s attitude during the debate will not have gone unnoticed.

    We need to try and keep our conversations respectful and make allowances for those who might be finding it difficult to keep calm. I myself have had my moments.

    I am determined to have a good day today, my eldest is coming home and I’ve missed him so much. No doubt he will bring a big washing load so I may be gone some time lol

  344. DerekM says:

    Here is a slight problem just what do we do about those Scottish MEP`s whose party voted to leave the EU,they may only have 2 years left of their term of election but does that give them the right to sit in a parliament they voted to leave against their constituents will.

    Can we replace them and if not why not since they just signed A50 for their own elected position in the EU parliament to become no more.

    Do we really have to tolerate that fat slimy toerag kipper for another 2 years?

    If they had any morals they would resign.

  345. Dorothy Devine says:

    TheItalianJob , Stockholm syndrome , but I’m not sure why we blame the lovely Swedes for it!

  346. Nana says:

    Ain’t that a shame

    Johnston Press announces £300m pre-tax loss

    Dictatorship in the making

    UK ministers to use Great Repeal Bill powers to make 1,000 ‘corrections’ to EU laws post-Brexit

    Still going

  347. La Belle Angele says:

    Three times popups suggestions have appeared on my wife’s Facebook page in the last day. The first one was the UK Governments and went through the usual trade within the UK lie. The second suggested page was however a strange one from UK Union Voice which says it is a resource where all news links, features, and other material is free for unionists and people who are pro-UK.
    Just this morning another one has appeared as a suggested page and it is from some organisation in Wales doing the same thing, promoting the Union!
    How is this stuff getting on to her page and why is Facebook suggesting it?
    As we live in the Borders there is already a large amount of posts degenerating Nicola that she deletes and hides from her posts without this tripe appearing as well. She has not unfriended anyone yet but is not far off it.

  348. Brian Powell says:


    It doesn’t matter what Brexiteers think about Merkel the EU27 are off to do their own thing, the ‘UK’ voice is mainly irrelevant to them from now on.

    The rantings of the Express, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph and ‘Scottish’ press, along with Farage, Davis, Fox and May are just so many people screaming in a padded cell.

    The truly tragic situation is that for now we are stuck there with them, and if the Tory puppets in Labour and the LibDems succeed we will be stuck there for a very long time.

  349. Luigi says:

    For those worried that WM will never let us go, because Scotland just has too much to lose (oil, fishing grounds, renewables, food & drink etc), it’s worth remembering that all these national assets of ours are not exactly unattractive to the EU either.

    What a Grand Irony it would be, if the EU supported partition of the UK, in order to keep areas of majority support, in a similar way that the UK carved up Ireland for its own purposes in 1920. Man, that would be Karma on stilts. 🙂

  350. Smallaxe says:


    Have a great day, don’t settle for a good one family is most important (washing included). Have you noticed that these bitter and twisted people get the face that they deserve? Show them that we can smile and laugh in the face of adversity.


    I agree with you, we should kick them out on their arse’s, they won’t resign, filling their pockets is their main occupation. These people are going against even the no voters for not wanting them to have their say.Out with them!

    Peace Always

  351. louis.b.argyll says:

    Stoker, thanks, nice work getting all those council lists onto this site.

    Argyll & Bute…MOST Cons/sLabs/Fib-dems disguised as ‘independants’ again.

    Local characters are all very well when you need a local issue sorted, BUT USELESS WHEN STRATEGIC REGIONAL ‘DEBATES’ TAKE PLACE..they cave in to the corporate models as presented, INSTEAD OF creating new ways to look at modern issues.

  352. orri says:

    Brexiters be like … //
    Remainers be like … //
    We be like //

    Or not if I still can’t figure our how to post youtube links.

  353. DerekM says:

    @ La Belle Angele

    Unfortunately like youtube and google,facebook is not quite what it seems on the outside.

    There is even talk that they will start adding a fake news warning pop up to certain news items which will be moderated by a private right wing group in the US.

    So if it does not fit their agenda it gets smeared or to give it its true term censorship.

  354. Ken500 says:

    When Scotland is Independent in the EU. More goods will go to the EU and less will go to the rest of the UK. The trade tariffs England and Wales will face will impend free trade and movement, even with their nearest neighbours. Countries in trade agreements/Unions. Trade the most, with their nearest neighbours. Scotland will also benefit big time with even more Grants and ECB investment for renewables etc. Scotland is the best country in the world for renewable fuel and energy. The Isle of Lewis has recorded the higher wind turbine production rate in the world. Cheaper energy. Electric cars/vans are four times cheaper to run. This would be a major boost to the economy.

  355. DerekM says:

    @ orri

    Just about correct you just take the address from the www the site will add the http 😉

  356. Capella says:

    @ La Belle Angele – sounds like the manpulative software that the Trump campaign and the Leave campaign used to target voters with tailored messages. They are able to profile users from their Facebook and Twitter accounts.

    No doubt Scotland in Union is using the same methods.

    She should complain to Facebook.

    I don’t do Facebook so I don’t know what techniques may be available for opposing the embedded messages. Would be worth finding out.

  357. La Belle Angele says:


    These were Popups like she had never seen before. The literally popped up, and that is something new to her on Facebook. Facebook is not my idea of fun but it’s mostly small stuff between friends and aquaintences not serious thoughts on life! Generally people stay clear of too much politics in postings but in the Borders there are so many incomers who don’t.
    Does Facebook have an axe to grind in UK politics?

  358. louis.b.argyll says:


    I’D vote for the ‘KARMA ON STILTS’ PARTY.

    These Tories..
    (and that includes all RECENTLY SELF-DEFINED anti-Scottish parties)
    ..need to be brought down several pegs..or better still..Remove the pegs by removing them from INTERFERING in your local council services.

  359. Nana says:

    Just got this, don’t know if it’s finished but you can watch again

    We’re LIVE with Parliament’s Brexit Coordinator Guy Verhofstadt. He will take your questions and explain Parliament’s position on the negotiations regarding the UK leaving the EU. Like, comment and send us your questions!

  360. DerekM says:

    @ La Belle Angele

    You could say they have a many billions of reasons to back the UK government.

  361. louis.b.argyll says:

    BBC pushing inadequacies in health provision as if they are true operational (Scotgov) choices.


    The SNP wants to create a better system but the Scottish Parliament can’t deliver it because the UK TORIES DECIDE OUR BUDGETS.

  362. schrodingers cat says:

    still trying to get my head round the leaked eu response from yesterday, i think the following is what is proposed

    2 years to negotiate brexit then the uk falls into WTO.

    during these 2 years, the eu will negotiate the terms of the Transitional agreement, eg exemption of eu barriers for dairy products, cars etc, but not financial services.

    so in 2 years the uk falls into WTO plus the negotiated transitional conditions.

    this situation will last for 3 years after which time, the uk will revert to just WTO rules.

    it is in this 3 year window that trade talks will take place which hopefully will replace the WTO rules agreement between the uk and the eu with a new trade agreement.

    So no trade talks in the next 18 months, just talks about 3 year limited transitional arrangements to soften the WTO landing area on the 29th march 2019

    what can go wrong?

  363. call me dave says:

    Sir David Edward ex Judge Court of Justice European communities had a wee spot on shortbread this morning just after that buffoon Coburn.

    SG in Holyrood will have to be consulted on certain changes …but hey ho! WM can ignore them but constitutionally unwise. 🙁

    Aye right but as the other experts consulted this morning say they will not care because there is no difference between English law and British law. Scot’s Law they don’t even recognise.

    Shortbread more concerned with recycling coffee cups if that’s not your cup of tea. Geez!

  364. Undeadshaun says:

    Interesting article on why taxes in uk are not collected.

  365. Ken500 says:

    The Bookie cheated the YES punters at the IndyRef2014. Insider dealing? When the wrongly mis-analysed Polls moved to YES. Were the Polls Illegal manipulated to YES for a reason? The bookies in the last week (after the swing to YES Polls), were taking any amounts on YES to win. For the first time in the preceedings.

    The bookies already knew it was NO. They were paying out in the last week. Had they been tipped off for illegal remuneration? Where the Polls deliberately manipulated. (Illegally in the Purdah period) to make money for gambling firms, sector and insiders. The Bookie insider tipping off the Pollsters. The Pollster insiders tipping off the Bookie. A criminal, illegal conspiracy. In order to illegally rip off the punters, especially the YES supporting vote.

    The Bookies and Pollsters breaking their own required rules regulation. The Bookies and Pollsters have been investigated many times for breaking their regulations and rulees. It is covered up and they just get away with a fine. Instead of being censored for criminal, malicious behaviour. Put in jail for embezzlement. Both sector gaining massive funding from the public and private sector. Illegally breaking their own rules and regulation, gerrymandering and ripping off the public.

  366. One_Scot says:

    The bottom line is this, everything about Scotland being a country, Scots law and being sovereign is just pretend. At the end of the day England has total control over Scotland and no amount of pretending otherwise will change that.

    The only way it will change is if Scotland votes for Independence. The only problem with that is, England won’t let us.

  367. Dr Jim says:

    @Breeks 8.26am

    Unfortunately your list is accurate but if I might add, the hatred and blaming of oneself and others for inadequacies whether real or imaginary leads that group to ever more entrenched stubborness

    Well documented cases: John McTernan Blair McDougall
    Duncan Hothersall Kezia Dugdale well most of the existing Labour party really

    And it’s really really sad that there seems to be little hope of mending folk who allow and even encourage themselves to suffer from the self inflicted version of these symptoms


  368. manandboy says:

    Every tom dick and harry who is Unionist, from May & Mundell to the hacks at BBC Scotland, wants Scotland to wait till Brexit is finalised before deciding whether or not to vote for Independence. Mundell bleats ‘it’s not fair’, while he wears his party’s hypocrisy like make-up, his pockets bulging with the fruits of his lies and his obsequious grovelling.

    They forget that they, and the corrupt organisations they are part of, will still be there in 2 or 3 yrs time, lying through their teeth and promising beads and trinkets in exchange for incalculable Scottish wealth.

    They also forget that Independence is not tradeable – unless you’re a ("Tractor" - Ed).
    With the brainwashed, the foolish and those for whom gullibility is a lifelong affliction, it’s a different matter of course; for them, life is about being British, with or without the butcher’s apron, for many no’s claim the green. But I digress.

    No, we in Scotland who think we should be just like every other Independent country with self-determination, are simply and totally not interested in remaining shackled to our Colonial masters while they rob Scotland of its natural assets.

    Let the English do Brexit. We’ll do Independence, and be content in the European Union, not because it is perfect, but because they’ll treat us far better, and certainly not as a colony.

  369. ebreah says:

    In an unsurprising news, Johnston Press has reported a pre-tax loss of £300 million. In a year’s time, we may be able to crowdfund and buy The Scotsman, and make the Rev the editor.

  370. Chick McGregor says:

    In 1707 a bribed Scottish Government agreed to a voluntary political union with England, NOT to a suicide pact.

    End of.

  371. Free Scotland says:

    @One_Scot at 10:30

    I take it, then, that you are one of those people – referred to by manandboy – for whom gullibility is a lifelong affliction.

  372. Brian Powell says:


    As Mike Russell pointed out, every country in the EU will know what the deal is but Scotland is expected to wait.

    And we can remember what Tory MPs said after the Vow, ‘Parliament didn’t agree to any of that’.

    From May to Mundell and Davidson, It’s all smoke and mirrors smeared with shit.

  373. Bob Mack says:

    Another prominent lawyer and Labour activist joined the SNP last night. Jamie Kerr has finally discovered that politics is about listening to the people rather than self serving.

    He is acutely aware that Labour without regret, want to throw Scotland to the Westminster wolves to be devoured and assimilated. Well done Jamie. I hope you are just another of the many who see through the facade that is Scottish Labour.


    You see people, the message is percolating through like fine coffee. Let’s keep up the good work.

  374. Meg merrilees says:

    Regarding today’s discussions on the Great Repeal Bill – hoping Angus or Joanna will please stand up in WM and stop this nonsense of ‘British Law’ which is being constantly spouted!!!

    There is no British Law – there is English Law and Scots Law unless I’ve missed a major change.

    Don’t think the discussions on the Sewel convention earlier this year have resulted in the demise of Scots Law, but has it resulted in WM deciding that everything about Brexit is not ‘normal’ therefore they can legislate for everything affecting Scotland and in effect take total control of all our laws?

    Don’t think so, but this needs to be laid to rest pronto.
    I’m hearing far too much ‘British Law’ on the radio just now. England is NOT Britain…

    Strong words from Heseltine! Britain relinquishes power…

    Aye, they’re starting to get rattled now!

    Don’t think I can face the whingeing on FMQ’s today and the truth less, rude one will be warming up for QT tonight. What a vile person. Phoned and told them that in Tory HQ on Tuesday!

  375. Flower of Scotland says:

    @Belle Angele

    I’m on Facebook all the time and mostly political sites. Nothing like that has ever happened to me.

    It’s really simple just to block them if they are a problem.

  376. One_Scot says:

    It is just plain fact, prove to me otherwise.

  377. mike d says:

    I now realise having just read the council voting rules,and all this stv confusion,that if a ward has say 4 candidates,I don’t have to vote 1,2,3,4,in preference. I can just vote for one of them .

  378. schrodingers cat says:

    “If, however, we leave the European Union without an agreement the default position is that we would have to trade on World Trade Organisation terms.” TM

    so salmond was right, wto is the default position

  379. Gus says:

    Merkel is only repeating what is in the EU Draft Resolution.

    We should all do what Nana suggested and read it ourselves.

  380. Desimond says:

    @Free Scotland @11:07

    I read @One_Scot at 10:30 as highlighting the current ugly situation we are in ( especially in the eyes of Mundell, May and Davidson) and hinting that that is one situation that has to end pronto. Didn’t see any gullibility in it whatsoever.

  381. schrodingers cat says:

    One_Scot says:
    The bottom line is this, everything about Scotland being a country, Scots law and being sovereign is just pretend. At the end of the day England has total control over Scotland and no amount of pretending otherwise will change that.

    The only way it will change is if Scotland votes for Independence. The only problem with that is, England won’t let us.

    as much as robert peffers would disagree with you, pointing to ancient treaties, acts and scots law, i think this is the realpolitik we have to deal with.

    guy verhofstadt was unequivocal yesterday, this issue is for us to solve, the eu wont get involved.

  382. One_Scot says:

    Good to see that some people do understand the situation we find ourselves in. The question is, how do we get out of it?

  383. wee e says:

    The Conservatives have never won an election in Scotland. Never.
    They weren’t even a parliamentary political party in Scotland till 1965. The rival sectarian unionist parties that existed till ten were socially conserative, but they were splinter Liberal not Tory groups. By the 1960s it was amalgamate or die.

    Calling the Liberal Unionists, Scottish Unionists etc Conservatives/Tories is an anachronism even less accurate than calling today’s LibDems that — the present lot have at least been in government with the Tories.

  384. schrodingers cat says:

    One_Scot says:
    Good to see that some people do understand the situation we find ourselves in. The question is, how do we get out of it?

    I’m not sure we do or can, but support for yes is directly linked to brexit, ie, the more bad news reported about brexit, the greater the support for yes.

    the uk media will not be able to ignore the job loss announcement from across the uk, but we can highlight these issues on social media.

    we can also finalise scotlands future 2, outlining the alternatives that independence and access to the single market will bring

  385. gus1940 says:

    Re ebreah @10.48

    Given that Scotsman Publications have been systematically Asset Stripped since they were bought by the loathesome Barclay Brothers and subsequently sold on to JP added to their desperately low and steadily falling circulation figures the value of the group must be pretty minimal.

    Just what are the assets?

    The Intellectual Value of the titles can’t amount to much given the dive in circulation and the sheer awfulness of their alleged journalism.
    They operate out of rented premises.
    They closed down the printing plant.
    They probably own some computers and office furniture although even they might be rented.

    Surely it wouldn’t take much to take the papers off JP’s hands and install Stu as Editor.

    Of course there is always the possibility that the Scotsman, Herald, Courier, P&J and Record are all kept going via some WM slush fund.

  386. Jack Murphy says:

    Regarding difficulty Archiving from some hostile ‘news’papers as discussed earlier on this thread—scroll past the jumbled nonsense in the middle and the remainder of article appears at bottom of page. 🙂


    “The European parliament’s resolution, which is understood to echo the thinking of the European commission and the European council, whose members comprise the 27 remaining EU states, says Brexit will be an “unprecedented and regrettable event as a member state has never left the European union before” but that “this exit must be arranged in an orderly fashion so as not to negatively affect the European union, its citizens and the process of European integration”…….”

  387. Iain More says:


    Ta for the links on the Council Elections. I see that the SNP are only standing one Candidate in my area of Moray though but then I doubt because of the crooked weasely STV voting system that they could get two elected and in Heldon & Laich they might struggle to get even one elected because of that voting system.

    There is one Tory honest enough to stand as a Tory and even one Fib Doomer rearing his head. The Green has no chance. The rest are closet jack booting Tories and Kippers masquerading as Independents.

  388. Sandy says:

    Re repeal bill. Change from EU law to British law. Where does Scottish Law stand?

  389. ScotsRenewables says:

    Oh dear, what’s happened? No stylesheet by the look of things.

  390. K1 says:

    Och well done Jack! None of us scrolled past the gobbledygook! So it did archive after all… 😉

    *chucks alert reader badge intae bin*

  391. jfngw says:

    I believe Ian Murray was on Channel 4 news. Hard to understand why as he is not even the Shadow Scottish Secretary. Is it because he is the only Scottish Labour person in the village.

    Who is interested in the opinion of a man that will not even serve in the Shadow Cabinet to represent Scotland.

  392. Meg merrilees says:

    Apparently, within the last hour, Nicola has written her letter to THeresa Maybe-aye, Maybe -not-” this is not the right time”, formally requesting a section 30 order to hold the Indy ref.

    Obviously that will be raised in QT tonight – expect a full broadside from TRuthless Harrison about how nobody wants it on Scotland and NS should sit down and shut up!

    I found out this afternoon that Ms. Harrison appears to have multiple twitter accounts. If they are genuine, then, on one of them she states that she consumed a whole bottle of Buckfast before the debate in Holyrood the other day – when she was rude to the First Minister and totally out of order in Parliament.

    She must be champing at the bit to get all her vitriol out tonight – i bet she’ll be as charming as ninepence to Dumblebore!!!

  393. Andrew says:

    Rev Stu,

    I understand the principled position which you take on the 2010 coalition, however the Lib Dems and Tories (who we would like to persuade to the cause) immediately object to the characterisation of that administration as Tory when it was, at least formally, a coalition.

    I’m most interested in speaking to LibDems in a positive, influencing way (I know…) so would you consider tweaking the calculator? Would “How many years have you had a Tory PM?” work?

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