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Wings Over Scotland

The not-so-nearly man

Posted on December 27, 2017 by

We were having an idle browse on Google Play Books this morning for some bargain holiday reading when we happened upon a startling new cover for Chris Mullin’s 1982 classic A Very British Coup.

We found ourselves thinking “rise to what, exactly?”

And as it happened, we had some new Panelbase polling data on that.

Do you think Jeremy Corbyn will ever be Prime Minister of the UK?

– Yes: 25%
– No: 52%
– Don’t know: 23%

(excl. DKs: Yes 33% No 67%)

Even among people who voted Labour in June, fewer than half – 48% – believe their man will ever actually sit in 10 Downing Street. And they’re in no hurry to find out.

When do you think the next UK general election (due 2022) should be?

– In 2018: 19%
– After Brexit negotiations are concluded, but before Brexit happens: 16%
– Immediately after Brexit happens: 12%
– In 2022 as scheduled: 38%
– Don’t know: 15%

Fewer than a fifth of Scots – and only a quarter of 2017 Labour voters – want a chance to kick the Tories out next year. And just over a third of respondents (35%) want a shot at changing the UK government before Brexit is signed, sealed and delivered.

(Only SNP voters could muster more than 50% for another election before Brexit happens, with the Lib Dems surprisingly keen to just get on with getting out of the EU despite the party’s policy being for a second referendum – a mere 27% of Lib Dems wanted a pre-Brexit election. Even among Remain voters just 45% back the idea.)

Most Scots – 59% if you exclude Don’t Knows – want to wait until the UK is firmly out of Europe before they contemplate going to the polls to elect a government again.

So what about another EU referendum instead? Here there’s more support:

When Brexit negotiations are concluded and the final deal is known – currently due to happen in late 2018 – do you think there should be a second referendum on the UK leaving the EU?  

– Yes: 47%
– No: 41%
– Don’t know: 12%

SNP and Lib Dem voters – both by more than 2:1 margins – are ironically united in their support for a second referendum on Brexit, despite the Lib Dems’ hypocritically implacable opposition to another vote on independence.

Scottish Labour voters are also comfortably in favour, though less strongly (about 1.5 to 1). The overwhelming opposition (more than 4:1) of Tory voters to a Brexit re-run, however, holds the overall level of support below 50%.

(20% of Remain voters DON’T want a second bite at the cherry, while a very similar proportion of Leave voters – 17% – are willing to put the matter to the vote again and risk having their victory overturned.)

But it’s all moot, because there isn’t going to be a second EU referendum. Neither the Tories nor Labour back the idea, and the Lib Dems and the SNP couldn’t form a UK government even if there was an early election, which voters are against in any event. There is no viable UK parliamentary route to avoiding Brexit. 

So whichever question you ask, the answers all ultimately come back the same way. Jeremy Corbyn and Labour can’t save Scotland from being dragged out of the EU against its will. Independence is the only possible escape.

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    62 to “The not-so-nearly man”

    1. jimnarlene says:

      And yet, we’ll still get pestered with the J.C. faithful, telling Scots to vote for Corbyn’s labour, as it’s different from Blair’s labour. The only real difference is, there’s a different dickhead at the helm.

    2. Janet says:

      IngSoc for Jeremy. Indy for Scotland.

      There. That’s settled.

    3. Marcia says:

      “Are you a Socialist?” “No. I vote Labour.” Will be heard if you go canvassing.

    4. Brian Powell says:

      It’s impressive, but in a very negative way, that Labour got through using the tactics of ‘we will’, then not doing it, over and over.

      I worked out I supported Labour because I wanted them to succeed, thinking they would genuinely change our society. I was truly puzzled by the deindustrialization of Scotland, the low health and life expectancy, and though there must be some implacable force stopping change in Scotland. Well there was, but it wasn’t only from without.

      The Ind Referendum brought the reality into sharp focus, then came the miserable offering of the Smith Commission, with the bitter reluctance of Labour in Scotland to put in nothing more than the absolute minimum, then compound this by voting against every power raising amendment the SNP MPs put forward in the subsequent debates.

      I want us to succeed, that’s the people of Scotland: Labour is done.

    5. quentin quale says:

      Imagine the mindset that thought that would be a good selling point. And was not one thread of the novel that any person rising to political leadership not liked by, or able to be moulded by the Establishment, they would be ‘toppled’?

    6. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The Labour Party in Scotland relied inordinately on the support of the west central Scotland Irish/Scottish vote. This is not and never was a “unionist ” vote and this is now obvious. This vote has now moved to a majority Scottish independence vote as Jim Murphy knew as the flutes tooted for the union.

      I wonder how many of the remaining Labour vote in Scotland knows that as the Brits executed Connolly and the other Irish rebels in 1916 the Labour members in Westminster applauded this.

      50% of the Labour support in Scotland will vote for independence if latest polls are to be believed. If this goes to 60% we are home and dry.

    7. dakk says:

      Even in the unlikely event Jerry Steptoe did become PM we would still get Tory lite policies(Trident,HoL,welfare cuts as well as Brexit.)

      And still I hear brainwashed Labourite say ‘never mind an independent Scotland ,I want a socialst UK’.

      After a hundred years of Labour sell out they still actually believe that they and their party are socialists.

      Sad or what?

    8. George S Gordon says:

      Harder to frame the real question – “when it is 100% certain the UK is totally stuffed by the Brexit deal, do you want another vote (to stay in the EU / for Scotland to be independent in the EU/EFTA)”.

    9. Street Andrew says:

      Corbyn will improve his chances of getting into No 10 by accepting that his party in England is 10 years behind the SNP and sticking his neb into Scottish politics of which he appears to know nothing and understand less will only give seats to Tories.

      Corbyn has to get with the progressive Alliance or stay in opposition. He’d be in No 10 now if he’d done that before May’s snap GE.

      Probably as many as a third of the PLP are sitting on the wrong side of the House.

    10. Donald anderson says:

      Am watching Channel 5 “North Sea Hijack” when an Iron Lady PM is worried about losing oil revenue to terrorist hijackers on a North Sea Rig.

      Don’t worry Roger Moore is on the job and most Scottish punters watching will not even think about money that could have been spent here..

    11. galamcennalath says:

      What is it Labour voters think that party will do for them? Do they not look at their record?

      Their record is abysmal. They vote against or abstain on policies when anyone in the centre or left would have expected them to.

      They promote policies, yet when they have the opportunity to achieve them … they don’t.

      At least with the Tories you know what they are. With Labour they consistently pretend to be something they aren’t.

      Truth is perhaps, residual Labour voters in Scotland are driven more by nostalgia than anything else. Those with expectations or aspirations vote SNP.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      The 3 questions above take two forms.

      The first is …
      “….. you think … will …?”
      … asks for a prediction.

      The second and third are…
      “….. you think … should …?”
      …. ask for an opinion.

      In the first I can understand people not being sure what WILL happen. That is genuinely difficult.

      In the second pair I worry about the large number of people who have no opinion on what SHOULD happen!

      Asking ‘should’ is seeking a moral judgement. It’s not so much ‘Don’t Know’ as ‘Don’t Care’. Sad.

    13. Dan Huil says:

      For god’s sake how many times do Labour want to try and con the people of Scotland? Scotland has given Labour many years and many chances to fix things for the better of society – to no bloody avail.

      No more britnat Labour BS. There’s only one answer: independence regained for Scotland.

    14. Calum McKay says:

      Corbyn will be 73 at next election, up against a tory likely to be 20 to 30 his junior.

      Who would trust the uk press to treat this in a fair or dignified way?

      Corbyn has and will go down in history as a breath of irrelevance!

    15. Ian says:

      I’ve never read or heard Labour (UK labour or ‘Scottish’ labour or old labour or new labour) provide an official reason why they hid the McCrone report from 1975 – 1979 & from 1997 – 2007?

      So if successive UK governments have been so deceitful for so long and to such an extent, to a country that they govern, then it’s clear that they will simply continue to do so for as long as they can. What more reason do people need to cast off the dead weight of the UK?

    16. Bob Mack says:

      My friend calls cCorby a “pendulum politician”. He alternates between NO to NEUTRAL (abstain) to YES, on any given policy within the space of a week. Imagine him leading a country?

    17. Ian says:

      1997 – 2005 not 2007.

    18. What has Corbyn or his so called people’s party got to offer the people of Scotland that the SNP has not already delivered and would deliver much more if we had our freedom I’m sure they would eradicate poverty and bring in the politics of fair play for all a thing the unionists will never do because theirs is the politics of envy and greed I mean I hear Nick Clegg is to become a Sir the man is a proven liar I’.e. Student fees this is the kind of people who are ruling us they reward these type of people and punish the poor with there policies hipocripts every one of them

    19. George says:

      For any youngsters interested, Channel 4 on demand service has the TV version of this book. You can see how unlike Corbyn the main character is.

    20. wull2 says:

      If the EU does not speak up for Scotland before we leave, then the EU will lose.

    21. colin alexander says:

      The Labour supporters celebrating Labour losing the election by not as much as they expected is akin to the people on here celebrating a 2014 indyref that was never going to win indy for Scotland.

      Celebrating an SNP led campaign that was based on wishful thinking. A White Paper that was nothing more than a very long Dear Santa, I would like..

      What’s even worse is that in the three years plus since then, the SNP have failed to address those issues, or come up with anything better, and yet the YES campaigners (though the SNP shut down the YES campaign) want a repeat performance.

      Pinning all their hopes on the UK Govt making such an even bigger mess of Brexit in the slim hope that that will make the SNP’s campaign look more credible and worth voting for. ( Who know’s it’s possible).

      But doing no preparation for four years, so you’re left hoping the other side will mess it up more than your side, is a very poor strategy. In fact, it’s a total mess.

    22. Fred says:

      Incredible that folk think Britain could negotiate any kind of favourable re-entry to the EU after leaving in a huff!

    23. starlaw says:

      Labour party was set up in the 1920,s to counter the threat of the Communist party.
      Still to this day they act as a safety valve when things are going against the real ruling class in the UK.
      Labour have form on supporting the Tories, Labour have never overturned any law brought about by the Tories nor despite years and years of promises we still have the HOL.
      Labours behaviour in Scotland is glaringly obvious, oppose everything proposed by the ruling party, and to hell with the wish of the Scottish people.

    24. CameronB Brodie says:

      It would appear that traditional ‘class politics’ still limits people’s insight and imagination (see BLiS___d’s branch manager, “Empty Rhetoric Boy”). Misplaced loyalty and trust, born of fear and hope, IMHO. This is not good, living in an age of alt-journalists and fake news dominated by the New Right.

    25. Artyhetty says:

      Very interesting to see this, thanks Stuart.

      I have heard more than one Labour follower say about Brexit, ‘it might not happen’. Deluded or what and it’s what the Britnat parties are relying on.

      The worrying thing is, still so many Labour followers think that ‘oh Corbyynnnn is going to save them from the extreme tories and from Brexit, so they will not do anything to change the situation.

      Labour are red tories, and people need to get a grip and realise that otherwise it’s back to where they left off in Scotland, treating the people with contempt while pretending to be socialist. They sent more than a billion £s BACK to Westmonster in 2006, while people in Scotland were really struggling and infrastructure continued to be less than adequate. They took from Scotland’s people, investing only when it was in their own, selfish interests, if at all.

      Labour are a disgrace, because they live a total lie and take huge wages to con the people, criminal really.

    26. galamcennalath says:

      starlaw says:

      Labour party was set up in the 1920,s to counter the threat of the Communist party … they act as a safety valve when things are going against the real ruling class

      That’s certainly what all the evidence suggests!

      When they do get to power they never rock the establishment boat. And they do get in usually when the Tories become unelectable because of their behaviour rather than policies. Then Labour generally just carry on where the Tories left off.

      Westminster is a bit like the Matrix – nothing is as it appears, it’s all much more controlled than seems, and has an hidden structure.

      Conspiracy theory? Well, look at the evidence and history.

    27. louis.b.argyll says:

      Labour could be in coalition in an independent Scotland right now AND be reforming England into a modern responsible nation if they really were ‘in it’ for the people/many.

      Labour should respect the identity politics and social histories that the world got by on before ‘labour’ were created.

      It’s like they invented equality but wanted they shelved it, as no longer useful, alongside the national identities of Wales and Scotland. The same tactics as the destructive feuding Royals of, cough, yesteryear.

    28. Cuilean says:

      Colin Alexander 2014 was lost because of the broken vows and BBC propaganda both breaching election rules but it was to save the existential threat to the country, so that’s ok then.

      The White paper is 800 pages more than UK’s Brexit plans and after over 1 and a half years since Brexit, the UK Cabinet has still to come up with any kind of plan, at all. Let that sink in.

      Doing no prep? Getting on with the day job and do bear in mind, Toots, Holyrood only has very limited powers over the whole economy. Although in favour of it at the time, I now think it was a mistake to call Holyrood the Scottish Govt as that is a misnomer. Holyrood does not govern Scotland, Westminster does that. Look how the BBC state sponsored anti-Scotland propagandists capitalised on that false impression (that Holyrood runs Scotland, it doesn’t), during the last UK Govt election this year. Holyrood has very limited powers. It can only fiddle round the edges and try to mitigate UK Govt. imposed policies. I think the SNP should hammer that fact home far more than it does. Holyrood and by extension, the SNP, are not responsible for the state Scotland is in right now; it is solely and catastrophically the responsibility of the Tory MPs and unelected House of Lords.

      Remember Michelle Mone sits closer to real power over Scotland than Nicola Sturgeon could ever possess under the status quo.

      I have to laugh when the BBC compares Scotland to “other small countries like Norway” as Scotland is not a small country like Norway. To do that, we would need to be independent. Scotland is ONLY part of the country called the UK and the poverty, austerity, poor pensions, etc. etc. are all UK imposed.

      The only real protection we will ever have against Westminster policies is to vote for Independence and get absolutely free of the horrendous UK mess once and for all.

    29. louis.b.argyll says:

      Wonder how many miles of road repairs or potential infrastructure projects we missed out on because Labour, Scotland branch, didn’t communicate the situation with their bosses in London. Sums up the cosy UK gravy train, pathetic.

    30. North chiel says:

      Well said Cuilean@ 0243 pm , right on the money!
      Also Galamcennalth @ 0219pm entirely agree that British “unionist “Labour Party is
      “ part& parcel of the Westminster establishment “ .Corbyn and any other past or future leader of
      Labour dare not have any coalition or similar” deals” with the SNP at Westminster as the ruling establishment class would “ make sure” that they never again held office this side of 2050 .They would be “ played off” by the state propagandists against the “ British” Liberal Party.
      Corbyn will only be “ allowed” to hold office if the “ first eleven” collapses and/or the establishment require him to “ salvage the UK “ over imminent Scottish independence and/or N. Ireland Brexit crisis issues.
      In all probability , without pressure on the “ British establishment” from the EU there would be no “ devolved administrations and Mundell would be presently “ the Governor General” ( surrounded by his chosen “ flunkies” ).

    31. yesindyref2 says:

      Out of 59 MPs Scotland sends to Westminster, only 13 are Tory, for a majority for Tory of -33. So with Scotland in the Union, if a repeat next GE, the Tories would need to get a 34 seat majority from the rUK just to have a 1 seat overall majority.

      I’ve totally forgotten where I’m going with that. Oh yes, I don’t think Corbyn will ever make PM because the chances are Indy Ref 2 will be in 2019, a good chance it’ll be a YES and Scotland won’t be part of the next GE, Scotland won’t be providing -33 to the Tories, which means it will be a Tory rUK Government as all they need then is a straight majority.

    32. yesindyref2 says:

      Tam Jardine made a study of the Thatcher papers released last year, and what they showed for one thing is that the Scottish Secretaries were having to fight for anything for Scotland, including even the agreed allowance, let alone a fair split. Some secretaries mostly rolled over, but some put up a bit of a fight and got some of the fair allowance back again.

      It was the same for Wales, and for the likes of Liverpool, all of us got robbed of monies rightfully ours. If you look at the road structure in Scotland it improved with devolution even under the Labour / LibDem, the likes of the A74 slowly turning into the M74, but much more under the SNP of course, who have made great strides on the M74, M80, A/M9, recently the M8, and the A9 part done and more to come.

      Look at the map of Wales for its roads, and the only improvement is some to the A55 continuation from the M56 to Chester which is in England, to carry the Welsh workers to Manchester and Liverpool, with the M4 and the Severn Bridge having been built decades ago to make South Wales the dormitory towns for London and the South-East.

      As for Liverpool it’s not that long ago the roads there were slow, it too has suffered for being part of the Union.

      The Union has been screwed up for decades, hundreds of years I guess, it’s only Scotland has a real chance of getting out from under and enjoying real success and prosperity, with work and investment.

    33. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I stood for the SNP at the council elections in 1966 and did well. The local Labour Party approached me to stand for them the next year and they were talking about a big Labour support in Scotland getting useful concessions from London. That kinda summed them up.
      Decent enough guys but mentally colonised. They haven’t changed.
      I had already worked out that the only sensible, not to say normal political position for Scotland was independence so I thanked them and continued with the SNP. I require no bandying about with figures and recognise that those who get trapped on that battleground which is chosen by our enemies are being distracted and diverted from the simple and straightforward case for independence ie we are a clever well resourced nation and should run our own affairs.
      That is all.

    34. Ian McCubbin says:

      This is such an important survey. Why a number of young Scottish yes voters are switching to Corbyn’s Labour as he is seducing them with false promises of better rewards for all.
      He can no way match success of SNP in government is Scotland.
      Please please put this message out widely Stu.

    35. gus1940 says:

      How many 2 Lane motorways are there in South Britain?

    36. Frank Waring says:

      Very interesting facts and analysis. I’m still not optimistic about the results a second independence referendum around the time of our formal leaving of the EU (before or after). At that time, we’ll all be looking at the 2-year transition period, during which all interactions with Europe, by way of trade or travel or migration, will carry on exactly as they do now. After that, the UK has undertaken that interactions across the border in Ireland will go on almost exactly as they do now — and the pre-Xmas rush of optimism in the political middle ground, I think, was based on the proposition that the only way in which Irish/UK border interactions can continue unaltered, is if EU/UK border interactions also continue at least very nearly unaltered.
      So, at that point in time, I fear that the unionist offer to Scots will be ‘There’s no need to make a choice: you can stay in the UK, and continue to interact with Europe in just the same way as we did when we were in the EU’.

    37. Hamish100 says:

      Corbyn is well into his seventies and age is catching up with him as with us all. He won’t be in power in 2025 never mind anytime soon. The labour numpties who cheered when the snp lost a seat to the Tories apparently were unaware that this meant Corbyn had less chance of being a Uk PM but then that didn’t matter. England in charge is more important to them than labour policies. For the latter they have been watered down to what?
      Is Corbyn for nuclear weapons or not? For a United Ireland or not? For the Eu or not

      Is far as I can see the septuagenarian is pro Brexit , pro nuclear weapons and pro right wing Ulster loyalists.

      He has joined the Tories for a few English votes.

    38. jfngw says:

      There’s a cake on the table, some want to divide it up between everyone present. But others want to send it to London to be divided up as they don’t believe anyone here can cut a cake correctly, and even though the bit cake they receive is smaller they are adamant it tastes better.

    39. yesindyref2 says:

      Andrew Wilson and the SNP Growth Commission are due to report “early in the New Year”, which should make the SNP knockers very sad and lonely, and looking very foolish, with any luck. But I daresay they’ll still be pushing UDI, seeing as how that went so well for Catalonia.

      One of the problems we could have after a YES vote on 14th March 2019, is that the SNP will be ready to put forward an Indy manifesto, so will the Greens, but the Conservatives, Labour and LibDems will all have manifestos about sending the cake down to Westminster and letting them cut it, and how to prepare and eat the stale crumbs that are sent back to Scotland. So it’s likely the first Indy Election in Scotland in 2021 will see all three of those parties totally unready for Independence. Ah well.

    40. Dr Jim says:

      Or you could look at the figures and say the Great British public are so thick apathetic and under confident of themselves they’re prepared for the party who is taking them to their doom to go right ahead and do it in the hope that maybe in some other galaxy far far away they might be right and it’ll all be OK but they don’t know

      Then when disaster strikes the party who have done this to us will say but we did what you voted for then the Great British public will say Aye they’re right let’s blame somebody else, Corbyn will vanish from view everything will get worse but in Scotland the SNP will be blamed for not doing enough to save us and the fear of trying anything like Independence will be so overwhelming the population will be seen walking around with their fingers in their ears making noises and the Tories blunder on

      Seriously, let’s hope I’m terribly wrong, the best we can hope for is all Television and newspaper things in Britain breaks and folk are forced to make their own decisions instead of waiting to be told by News at ten or the Daily stupidity

    41. Albert Herring says:


      Don’t see how they could stand – they’re English parties.

    42. Ken500 says:

      Fifty years of lying Labour. How can some folk be so deluded. Years of Scottish revenues going south to be wasted. Lie after lie after lie. How can some folk be so deluded. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Lying unionists. Thatcher etc. A bunch of psycho bastards. Westminster crooks most of them should be in jail. Sanctioning and starving people. Causing the worst migration crisis since the 11WW. Now Brexit. Another disaster. Thank goodness for another Indy Ref and better governance.

    43. ScottieDog says:

      Ref the growth commission I’m actually quote nervous about what they will come out with tbh.
      Just hope theyve moved on from the neoliberal narrative.
      Sovereign currency (eventual floating)
      Reformed banking system as part of a future constitution.
      Call out the neoliberal narrative – gov spending enhances the private sector doesn’t crowd it out)
      Soending in own currency does NOT cause rise in interest rates. (Examples all around)

      Time to call out all the untruths and not play along with those who propagate them.

      It has to be radical because brexit is radical.

    44. Ken500 says:

      9 Labour councillors ruining Aberdeen City. £1.2Billion in debt. Spending £Millions on grotesque projects no one wants. Causing traffic chaos. They are a complete disgrace. Voted out they still come back to haunt. Unfit for public office. Cutting spending on essential services. Wasting £Millions. A public disgrace. An affront to democracy. A LibDem gets elected then changes to an Independent to let the Unionists in again. That must be illegal. A two jobs Tory keeping them in position. Shameless.

      Folk in the NE not coming out to vote and letting the useless Tories in. Then complaining, They haven’t go a clue. They can’t count or read a balance sheet.

    45. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Dave McEwan Hill@ 3.47

      You are right Dave we tend to walk into well set traps arguing with the English Nationalists over state produced lies.

      Less numbers keep it simple. Independence is a natural state, any other arrangement is nonsense.

    46. yesindyref2 says:

      @Albert Herring
      Technically you’re totally right of course, they’re just accounting units according to the Electoral Commission. They’d have to reform in more ways that that one!

      I’ve kind of moved over to the bilboblog way of looking at things, even including the more difficult concept economically of full employment, and I certainly hope they have some recognition of that in their papers. But even a currency and economics according to neoliberal ideas, but for Indy Scotland never mind the 4 unions or whatever it was, will be a great advance, and few if any amongst the Unionists will have the wit to be able to pick holes from a more modern point of view, they’d be comparing like with like.

    47. wull2 says:

      Tell the relatives you see once a year to question everything they see, and to vote YES next time.

    48. cirsium says:

      @ScottieDog, 5.31
      “sovereign currency”

      “reformed banking system”

      Sounds good to me.

    49. David Smith says:

      It’s 49 years next week since the direct Mainline from Carlisle, through the borders to Edinburgh was disgracefully closed on Labour’s watch.
      It was left to the Liberal MP for Roxburghshire, a certain David Steel to make a token fight. Labour’s Scottish MP’s were nowhere to seen

      SLAB have created a very British cowp…

    50. yesindyref2 says:

      A good time perhaps to put this back on the main thread:

      but I never saw this one before:

      2 or 3 guys rout 100 of Westminster’s finest and make them look silly!

    51. ScottieDog says:

      But they will come out with project fear on steroids concerning a scottish currency..
      Here’s a taster..
      Massive devaluation
      Hyper inflation
      And of course austerity “to show we are a ‘responsible’ nation and safe bet.

      This is why I want Yes2 to fork out for an impartial economist like
      Steve keen, stephanie kelton, randall wray, Bill mitchell, Steven hail.

      The media already hammer richard murphy. We need more voices who don’t give two hoots whether scotland is independent or not but is absolutely passionate about slamming the economic myths pushed by the establishment.

    52. Stookie says:

      A cracking explanation of the present situation.

    53. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog “impartial economist like
      Steve keen, stephanie kelton, randall wray, Bill mitchell, Steven hail

      Problem is they don’t appeal to the media and are little known. It’s the likes of IFS, IPPR and others get the attention and the publicity, so I’d guess Wilson and co will play “safe” – though they do appear to have considered the views of Murphy and co.

      Nothing to stop them improving the plan after a YES vote, all the same.

    54. colin alexander says:


      Why are you having sneering digs at Catalonia’s declaration of UDI? With your: “Look how that went”.

      That’s like blaming the rape victim for the rapist’s actions.
      Spain has acted undemocratically, like a fascist state, fully supported in its actions by the EU – and the UK Govt.

      Pro-indy parties won a majority in Catalonia following the declaration of UDI. In contrast, the SNP’s running scared of “the I word” has seen the SNP lose 500,000 votes and coming very close to only retaining a handful of MP seats at the GE.

      Furthermore, Catalonia is not Scotland. Catalonia is Catalonia. Though Spain’s govt has much in common with the UK Govt – dictatorial and undemocratic.

      Are you saying Scotland should only be independent when she gets willing permission from the UK Govt for an indyref and that the UK Govt will allow a fair indyref campaign? Hell will freeze over first.

      The UK Govt that ignored the FM’s letter asking for talks. The UK Govt that says not now, now is not the time, but won’t say when. But hints that it won’t agree for at least five years.

      In other words, it is likely the UK will only give permission for Scotland to have the chance for indy ( via an Indyref) when it looks like support for indy is low enough to make it a safe bet for the Union.

    55. Robert Graham says:

      A good story that is still available on More 4 on demand, I don’t know how closely the dramatisation followes the book , but it’s a good watch, and a believable plot .

      The linking of this book predicting the rise of Corbyn is stretching probability beyond belief, Jeremy is not the messiah , nor even a bad impersonation, at best he is a distraction , his Woeful attempts at PMQs with open goals missed at every opportunity are embarrassing, this is the worst and most accident prone government in living memory, and he still can’t land a glove on any of them .

      Behind Jeremy’s promotion are a hundred assassination attempts in progress, all beneath the surface , he would shit himself if he acutely managed to win an election, can anyone imagine this lot being in charge of anything, with him as PM .

    56. ScottieDog says:

      But this is the point. The IFS, Fraser of allander inst etc are all neoliberal organisations. They will portray an Indy Scotland as a big risk because they are using hugely flawed economic models. We need the economists I mentioned to call them out.

      The above organisations are still for example comparing government finances with household finances – a fallacy of composition. This fallacy can be destroyed in 60 seconds and yet it has dominated the economy for the past 40 years.

      People are far more likely to take this from someone who has no preference either way about independence than someone from the SNP growth commission.

    57. Mike d says:

      Scottish youngsters, take it from an exiled 64yr old. Corbyns liebor, Blair’s liebor. Two cheeks of the same arse.both lying barstewards who’ll promise/promised the moon for the keýs of 10 downing st. You have been warned.

    58. Mike d says:

      Robert Graham 8.04pm. I predicted brexit,And I’ll say this for free. Jezza corbyn will NEVER be first minister of engerlund.

    59. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, but it’s a Catch 22 that these economists are not on the media, and so won’t be heard, whereas in a nei-liberal world IFS, FoAI, NIESR, will.

      @colin alexander says: Why are you having sneering digs at Catalonia’s declaration of UDI?

      Why don’t you do some more twisting and GFY?

    60. Gordon McAuslane says:

      @ Brian Powell

      The truth is that Labour’s intention was to keep the people of Scotland poor whilst assuring them that only Labour could lead the working family out of poverty. We all believed this ordure for all of the approximately 80 years that they held power at most levels in Scotland. This policy assured success for the party. They must have thought us simpletons. No longer, though!

    61. Josef Ó Luain says:

      I’m not so sure Labour ever had any “intentions” in Scotland, other than harvesting Scottish votes for Westminster, parliamentary majorities.

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