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Wings Over Scotland


Posted on January 02, 1968 by

For off-topic chat. Duh.

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    1. Cactus says:

      Evening folks, cheers for joining me (again) on one of my many Glasgow mini adventures t’other nicht. Aye was out seeing one of ma friends bands playing in the city, it was a charity gig for Alzheimers… and then aye went walkies. 😉

      The way things have gone earlier today with ukexit talks, it looks like an independence referendum could be just around the corner now. It’s all SO exciting!

      Awe ra best to ye’s girls and boys of Scotland.

    2. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Cheers, Lenny. Yes, we have the “engineers” in tomorrow. Something wrong with the broadband connection or our broadband service. I do two shows on Friday. One at 7 where I rant on between bits of music and an hour of rock’n’roll to follow at 8. Other guys on some evenings . Trying to build it up. Not a “nat” station but most of us are nats. Amazing potential.I have friends in Nigeria listening to me and folk from US

    3. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the cult of gender ideology and the misappropriation of “woman” as a sex class. Opening the sex class to all comers undermines the semiotic significance of “women” and unsettles and weakens the normative foundations of human rights. Space needs to be made for non-binary identities, so why not create a third “diverse” sex class, rather than stealing the identity and normative value of womanhood? Oh yeah, misogyny and stuff.

      A Critique of Normative Heterosexuality: Identity, Embodiment, and Sexual Difference in Beauvoir and Irigaray


      The distinction between heterosexuality and homosexuality does not allow for sufficient attention to be given to the question of non-normative heterosexualities. This paper develops a feminist critique of normative sexuality, focusing on alternative readings of sex and/or gender offered by Beauvoir and Irigaray. Despite their differences, both accounts contribute significantly to dismantling the lure of normative sexuality in heterosexual relations-a dismantling necessary to the construction of a feminist social and political order.

      Normative and Theoretical Foundations of Human Rights


    4. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Cameron.

      Bob Marley: “Get up, stand up”

    5. CameronB Brodie says:

      Though I’m just getting warmed-up, I appreciate social science isn’t to everyone’s taste. I’ll make a conscious effort to keep a hud of myself, MK. I just need to get this out the way first. 😉

      How is hermeneutical injustice related to ‘white ignorance’? Reply to José Medina’s “Hermeneutical Injustice and Polyphonic Contextualism: Social Silences and Shared Hermeneutical Responsibilities”, Miranda Fricker

      ….My aim in coining the label ‘hermeneutical injustice’ was to theorize a particular phenomenon, one where for unfair reasons (reasons of local or global hermeneutical marginalisation) someone might be unable to make sense of a patch of their own experience that it was non-trivially in their interests to make sense of — either in their own mind, and/or in its communication to at least some significant social others (such as an employer, or a social worker, or a jury…). My hope in exploring such examples was to illuminate a sub-category of genuine hermeneutical inabilities: those that are structurally unjust, so that they are wrongful even while they are epistemically non-culpable. That lack of epistemic culpability was essential to the phenomenon I was trying to identify, and it is partly that which, I take it, makes it different in kind from most cases of white ignorance.

      A different and broader project from my own in the domain of the hermeneutical would be to identify or categorise the range of epistemic practices that are wrongful and epistemically culpable, owing to some epistemic fault or vice such as wishful thinking, denial, self-interested selectiveness as regards the evidence, suppression of historical context, and so on. Such wrongful epistemic practices would include all those that allowed privileged self-interest to influence what evidence is or isn’t attended to, or which interpretations gain assent and are integrated into the motivational system that governs a person or group’s agency. Among such wrongful and epistemically culpable epistemic practices we would surely find those pertaining to white ignorance….

      The Routledge Handbook of Epistemic Injustice

      Distinguishing Two Dimensions of Uncertainty

    6. CameronB Brodie says:

      Morning mate.

      Violent Femmes – Do You Really Want to Hurt Me

    7. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry peeps, I am being conscious but I’m also aware there will be folk who didn’t understand what I meant by “Opening the sex class to all comers undermines the semiotic significance of “women” and unsettles and weakens the normative foundations of human rights.” The thing is, it’s rather difficult to navigate life when meaning is arbitrary. As I might have mentioned, it all boils down to semiotics, mk.

      The Semiotic Hierarchy: Life, consciousness, signs and language

      This article outlines a general theory of meaning, The Semiotic Hierarchy, which distinguishes between four major levels in the organization of meaning: life, consciousness, sign function and language, where each of these, in this order, both rests on the previous level, and makes possible the attainment of the next. This is shown to be one possible instantiation of the Cognitive Semiotics program, with influences from phenomenology, Popper’s tripartite ontology, semiotics, linguistics, enactive cognitive science and evolutionary biology. Key concepts such as “language” and “sign” are defined, as well as the four levels of The Semiotic Hierarchy, on the basis of the type of (a) subject, (b) value-system and (c) world in which the subject is embedded. Finally, it is suggested how the levels can be united in an evolutionary framework, assuming a strong form of emergence giving rise to “ontologically” new properties: consciousness, signs and languages, on the basis of a semiotic, though not standardly biosemiotic, understanding of life.


      Basic Tasks of Cultural Semiotics

    8. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Jolly Brothers – Conscious Man / Dub

    9. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for Kristina Harrison. Thank you times a gazilion, for your solidarity in fighting against an emergent gender dystopia.

      Faithless – We Come 1

    10. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Smallaxe at 10.39 am

      The number with the most radio play ever.

    11. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s a bit of social science in the hope of informing the gender ideology debate.

      Sociological Enlightenments and the Sociology of Political Philosophy

      ….This analysis brings into relief the paradox underlying the formation of modern social-scientific endeavor. If viewed against contemporary criteria, the Enlightenment comprised a mass of proto-sociological theoretical movements. Despite this, sociology constructed itself as the adversary of the Enlightenment. In retrospect, in fact sociology first defined itself by proposing a highly simplified account of the Enlightenment: the real Enlightenment, to a large degree, was always, not the antithesis, but the precursor of sociology.?14 The facts/norms dichotomy that progressively separated sociology and political philosophy through the nineteenth century was the result, not of any original irreconcilable methodological division, but of the inner self-comprehension and distinction of each of these disciplinary fields.

      It needs to be noted here, to be sure, that the strict facts/norms distinction between normative political philosophy and descriptive sociology was not always conclusively upheld through the nineteenth century. Some salient positions in both political philosophy and sociology appreciated the paradoxicality and probed at the falsity of this dichotomy. Much of the most important theoretical research of the nineteenth century sought to build on the insights of the earlier Enlightenment, and to re-fuse the normative claims of philosophy and the descriptive methods of sociology in order to provide a broad analysis of the liberating and legitimating moral residues of modern society. For example, British utilitarianism, although abidingly focused on ought-questions of philosophy rather than why-questions of sociology, crossed the strict divide between political philosophy and sociology. Bentham protested vociferously against the normative principles of the later Enlightenment.15

      Perhaps the most dialectically refined response to the normative foundations of the Enlightenment, however, surfaced in the legal- and political-philosophical works of Hegel. Indeed, Hegel’s Philosophy of Right might be interpreted as a direct and strategic attempt to develop a philosophical position able to translate the normative formalism (allegedly) characteristic of concepts of state legitimacy in the Enlightenment into an observation of the state as an emergent part of society’s inherent normative structure. In the strictest sense of the word, Hegel’s philosophy of state proposed a sociological re-comprehension of the politics of the Enlightenment, which was intended to recuperate the singular normativity of the Enlightenment by locating the political institutions prescribed by the Enlightenment within an explanation of society’s inner theoretical intelligence and its inner formative logic.

      As such, in Philosophy of Right, Hegel argued that the political norms defined by the Enlightenment as formative of legitimate statehood are produced, not by an external deductive mind, but by plural and contingent practices throughout society: such norms, consequently, possess a high level of social contingency and a high degree of internality to different spheres of social agency. Nonetheless, he also ascribed to these norms a high degree of obligatory force and necessity, and he suggested that the political norms articulated by the Enlightenment, although originating in the internal processes of society’s political formation, stand as relatively constant and rationally defensible preconditions of adaptive and legitimate statehood.?16

      Hegel’s perspective, the facts/norms division later characterizing the polarization of philosophical and sociological methods was countervailed by an analysis of society which viewed theoretical norms as operatively reflexive facts within the construction of societal order, yet which also viewed social facts as internally shaped by intelligent theoretical norms and so as possessing an abstracted normative validity. Further, in Hegel’s political philosophy the suggestion became visible, not for the last time in European conceptual history, that the Enlightenment had proposed principles of social formation and institutional legitimacy which its own methodological apparatus was incapable of comprehending: the norms (rights, constitutions, principles of autonomy) ascribed legitimating force in the Enlightenment could, for Hegel, only become explicably valid and binding if they were sociologically reconstructed, and observed as elements of society’s inner form. Implicit in Hegel’s philosophy, is short, was the methodological foundation for a sociological Enlightenment

      The late-idealist perception of the artifice of the facts/norms dichotomy resulting from the Enlightenment remains an enduringly valid critique of the analytical distinctions that cast the underlying form of modern theoretical history. The idealist allusion to a renewed synthesis of normative theory and sociological analysis was, however, relatively exceptional and short-lived. In general, political philosophy consolidated itself through the nineteenth century as an heir to (what it constructed as) the Enlightenment. Sociology, moreover, although surely open to intersections with philosophy in its analyses of cultural and aesthetic practice, portrayed itself as the counterpart to (what it observed as) the philosophy of the Enlightenment insofar as it was focused on legal and political norms.?17

      Equality and Political Philosophy

      Gender & Political Philosophy

    12. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Dr. Adrian Harrop. If he’s a medical practitioner, why is his license not under review? His judgement can not be considered sound, IMHO, as he’s clearly prejudiced against the rights of biological women.

      The worthy aims of Gender Ideology can not justify the destruction of semiotic meaning and reason (see women-who-are-not-transwomen). Without normative value, individuals have no rights and very limited agency to change their circumstances. This is how totalitarianism operates.

      Sex is not the same as gender!

      Academic philosophy and the UK Gender Recognition Act.

      Something is afoot in academic philosophy. Beyond the academy, there’s a huge and impassioned discussion going on, around the apparent conflict between women-who-are-not-transwomen’s rights and interests, and transwomen’s rights and interests. And yet nearly all academic philosophers?—?including, surprisingly, feminist philosophers?—?are ignoring it.

      This conflict is given a particular sharp illustration in the UK at the moment, where both major political parties currently support changes to the Gender Recognition Act, to make it easier for people to legally ‘self-identify’ as a particular gender, without any prolonged psychological or medicalised intervention. It looks likely that this act of self-certification will be all that is required to legally ‘become’ a woman or man; no change in lifestyle, clothes, or physiognomy, or any period of living ‘as a woman’, or the lack of it, will be relevant….

      Deception in the Virtual World: A Semiotic Analysis of Identity


      Drawing on the impact of the Internet on our experience of space and time, and how it shapes our personal identity, this article explores the significance of deception in the virtual world and explains how identity is established in online communities [under the effects of identity deception] and the conditions that give rise to it. Little work has been done on identity formation through the visual interfaces of cyberspace and other web design communities. My purpose here is not only to use semiotics to analyze the web as a communication tool, but also to analyze some of the paradigms of identity that may exist in the virtual world, where online identity makes the Internet the ideal interface environment among human beings all around the world. As such, they feel free to communicate the way they want (i.e., being very expressive, swapping gender, telling lies, reinventing themselves, and so on).

      A Semiotic Analysis of the Gender Equality Paradigm. Case study: the Gender Pay Gap Campaign


      Within the new European space of identity, attitude and action challenges, syntagms such as “unity in diversity” or “equal pay for work of equal value” have become identitarian brands for social groups with a high-level of self-awareness. Having the social semiotics (Kress, van Leeuwen [1996] 2006) as theoretical background, we focused our analysis on the gender equality paradigm.

      The empirical data were provided by four visual texts of the Gender Pay Gap campaign, initiated by the European Commission in March 2009, in order to map the new European “puzzle-space”5. The analysis showed the importance of compositional, representational and interactive meanings within the European discourse on equality of chances and gender.

      sign, semiotic system, identity, European “puzzle-space”, information campaign.

    13. Ian Foulds says:


      If we have to refer to them in Scotland, why are they not given their Scottish titles in the media and not their English ones?

    14. CameronB Brodie says:

      Unlike Dr. Adrian Harrop, my concern is for the well-being of the wider community, not minority interests.

      The Negotiative Theory of Gender Identity and the Limits of First-Person Authority


      The first-person authority view (FPA) is the current dominant view about what someone’s gender is. According to FPA the person has authority over her own gender identity; her sincere self-identification trumps the opinions of others. There are two versions of FPA: epistemic and ethical. Both versions try to explain why a person has authority over her own gender identity. But both have problems. Epistemic FPA attributes to the self-identifier an unrealistic degree of doxastic reliability. Ethical FPA implies the existence of an unreasonably strong and unqualified obligation on the part of others not to reject the person’s identification.

      This essay offers an alternative: the negotiative theory of identity. Unlike epistemic FPA, the negotiative theory doesn’t presume the reliability of self-directed beliefs. Unlike ethical FPA, the negotiative theory doesn’t imply an obligation not to reject. Instead, it contends that an act of rejection is morally permissible if and only if it respects three ethical and epistemic constraints. In doing so, the negotiative theory combines the strengths and avoids the weaknesses of both versions of FPA, and gives us substantive insight into how far first-person authority reaches in terms of grounding rights and obligating others.

      Gender Idenity Philosophy of Sex Philosophy of Race First-Person Authority Social Epistemology Ethics Ethics of Identity Political Identity Religious Identity

      Gender and Gender Terms

      “When Tables Speak”: On the Existence of Trans Philosophy (guest post by Talia Mae Bettcher)

    15. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thought I’d just put this up again.

      And I enjoyed this comment
      “Bravo pour cette belle interprétation ! Toujours émouvant à écouter… Vive L’Ecosse, vive la France et merde aux anglois !”

    16. cearc says:

      And a very good thought it was too.

      Vive, L’ancienne alliance!

    17. Clapper57 says:

      Reading through main thread ( one with drawing of Davidson & Mundell)….cannae help but think the uncanny similarity in ranting style and content between this character collie and yon Danny that used to post….same person or twins ?

    18. frogesque says:

      Just received my shiney new YES flags via AyeMail.

      More important, 1M leaflets along with YES packs are ready to hit the streets

      Well done to Lindsey Bruce and the Indy Kits For YES team

      It’s coming yet fa’ a’ that!

    19. Thepnr says:


      “same person or twins?”

      Would be the fourth name he’s had then, so maybe. Do we really care? An arsehole is an arsehole for ah that lol.

    20. Smallaxe says:

      Oklahoma: “Oh What a Beautiful Morning” (Hugh Jackman)

    21. Smallaxe says:

      I wish some on the M/T would just…

      “Simmer Down”

      Relax mi gud people, nuh let things mek yuh screw, it bad fi di digestion an yuh mental health.

    22. Smallaxe says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      15 October, 2018 at 11:11 pm
      Smallaxe at 10.39 am

      “The number with the most radio play ever.”

      Sorry, Dave, I’ve just seen your comment above. Thanks’, for that, it’s something that I wasn’t aware of. 🙂

      Rory Gallagher: “Around & Around” (with Frankie Miller)

    23. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Sir Paul Beresford MP not understanding David Linden MP. I’m afraid to say that Mr. Liden’s diction was at fault, IMHO. He needs to slow his speach down, though I think the Tory could have made more of an effort to understand.

      Your Speaking Voice – How Good Diction Helps

    24. CameronB Brodie says:

      Well, I thought “Totally Wired” was too obvious.

      The Fall – The Man Whose Head Expanded

    25. CameronB Brodie says:

      Pat Robertson and right-wing evangelical Christians, really are the spawn of Satan.

      The Religious Right in America

      For irreligious evangelicals, Christianity is about politics—not God

      Why I Left the Right: How Studying Religion Made Me a Liberal

    26. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Owen Jones. Smug, know-nothing, prick, IMHO. Displays a complete lack of understand re. the normative foundations of human rights. A useful idiot.

    27. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones
      Want to stop being a woke prick?

      Gender Is the Philosophical Issue of Our Age

      Today’s public is engaged in conversations about gender. Facebook, Twitter, and coffee-shop conversations abound on the role of gender…in presidential politics, in The Danish Girl, in Caitlyn Jenner’s tabloid exploits, in Mexico’s epidemic of femicide, in Olympic qualifying standards, in health insurance protections, and so on. The following quotation is true today much more than it was in the 1980s when Luce Irigaray said it: “ Sexual Difference is one of the major philosophical issues, if not the issue, of our age.”[1] If academic philosophy wants to demonstrate its usefulness to students and the public, thoughtful engagement of the topic of gender should be pursued….

      Plato on Gender: Three Different Views

      Feminist Political Thought

    28. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps Owen Jones can get together with Severin Carrel, to discus the semiotics of gender? After all, Severin is the “Semiotic Kid”.

      The semiotics of gender.


      The semiotics of gender are investigated in this article for the purpose of exploring the way that deep unconscious motives in relationship to cultural biases give rise to gender concepts. Theories of semiotic processes, including Jacques Lacan’s concept of the psychoanalytic signifier, are explained briefly and applied to the signs of gender. The article concludes that gender concepts develop out of biology, unconscious feelings, and social patterning, and are not given, natural, and irrevocable.

      Emerging genders: semiotic agency and the performance of gender among genderqueer individuals

      Gender Semiotics and the 21st Century Feminist Utopia: Implications on National Security and Socio-cultural Development

    29. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones
      Remember censoring me on the Independent’s blog in 2014, because you were loosing the debate? That simply confirmed my suspicions that you’re an anti-democratic prick.

      Do Clothes Make the Woman?: Gender, Performance Theory, and Lesbian Eroticism

    30. CameronB Brodie says:

      Please stop using the term “Tory” to describe Conservatives. Conservatives are [c]onservative, Tories are fervent British nationalists and only a hop, skip and jump away from full-on fascists. They don’t like Catholics either.

      What to call Britain’s Conservative party

      Survey of Britain’s party members reveals glaring contrasts between Tories and other parties

      Members only: views of the Conservative Party’s rank-and-file

    31. smithie says:

      So in four days and 30 comments Cam bb has posted 18 yet he does not want to hog?

      Now fair enough, this is where these subjects should be expressed and i have no problem with that.

      Just please keep it off the main site?

    32. smithie says:

      By the way Cam sorry i made it personal the other night….other forces etc.

    33. William Wallace says:

      @ Liz. Ty and I will.

      @ Sma. I couldn’t possibly trouble you with my shite mate. You have more than enough to be dealing with.

      @Smithie. Gi yirsel peace. Who made you the gaffer?

      CamB is part of the fixtures and fittings around here and if he wants to make a point on the MT or OT then who are you to tell him otherwise?

      I may not understand everything he posts but, I do enjoy reading it and furthering my own knowledge. I certainly don’t recall you posting anything that made me sit up and pay attention in quite the same way.

    34. CameronB Brodie says:

      You have made this personal, so would you like to meet up? I’m in Dundee.

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s not an invitation to a square go, btw, simply an offer to meet face-to-face.

    36. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Wings get-together doon the toon, iye?


    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones
      There is no moral justification for your stance on self-identification. What on earth made a know-nothing such as yourself, think they have the justification to undermine language, reason and the basis of human rights? Oh yeah, misogyny, far-left ideology and stuff.


      3.2. GENDER AS A NORM
      Butler writes that the conditions of human intelligibility are composed of socially articulated norms of recognition (UG, 2, 57). According to Lloyd, the notion of intelligibility, as it is deployed by Butler, suggests the way one can be recognized ?as a legible subject? only with reference to a culturally produced ?normative framework? (Lloyd, M. 2007, 33) In other words, the norms of
      recognition set the scene at which we might come to appear enabling but also restricting the possibilities of our appearance in the social world. As Butler puts it, these norms accomplish this by imposing ?a grid of legibility on the social? (UG, 42). The world is thus perceived only through a normative conceptual framework that gives phenomena their intelligible, recognizable form. In this way the norms contribute to the production of reality and the ?reality itself: they are what makes somebody real and deems some other body unreal or impossible. (See UG, 15 – 39, 52, 206.)

      Drivers of change in gender norms
      An annotated bibliography

      1-800 GIRLS – Just Cause

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones
      Just in case you haven’t got the message yet and insist on being a woke prick.

      Feminist Perspectives on Sex and Gender

      First published Mon May 12, 2008; substantive revision Wed Oct 25, 2017

      Feminism is said to be the movement to end women’s oppression (hooks 2000, 26). One possible way to understand ‘woman’ in this claim is to take it as a sex term: ‘woman’ picks out human females and being a human female depends on various biological and anatomical features (like genitalia). Historically many feminists have understood ‘woman’ differently: not as a sex term, but as a gender term that depends on social and cultural factors (like social position). In so doing, they distinguished sex (being female or male) from gender (being a woman or a man), although most ordinary language users appear to treat the two interchangeably. More recently this distinction has come under sustained attack and many view it nowadays with (at least some) suspicion. This entry outlines and discusses distinctly feminist debates on sex and gender….

    39. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones
      Here’s some normative legal theory you might want to clue yourself up on, though that might lead you to questioning you personal beliefs. Is it in you to allow your ethical self to rise above your ideological self? Are you a reflexive human being or simply the facade of white male entitlement?

      Legal Theory Lexicon: Welfare, Well-Being, and Happiness


      Normative legal theory is concerned with the ends and justifications for the law as a whole and for particular legal rules. Previous entries in the legal have examined exemplars of the three great traditions in normative theory–consequentialist, deontological, and aretaic (or virtue-centered) perspectives. There are important differences between these three families of theories at a very general and abstract level: for example, deontologists emphasize rights and wrongs while consequentialists emphasize the goodness or badness of states of affairs. And there are differences between particular theories within the broad families: within consequentialism, for example, welfarists emphasize preference satisfaction, whereas hedonistic utiliarians emphasize pleasure and pain….

      Feminist Philosophy of Law

      Gender and the Rule of Law in Transitional Societies

      Dominant hierarchies … often marginalize women’s priorities, interests,and participation … in fact, they render invisible the gendered patternsand structures …. In many cases, this invisibility is shaped and enabledby background social structures and ideologies, including discriminationembedded in the legal system, the dearth of women in the political sphere,barriers to women’s access to the media …. These social norms,ideologies, practices, and institutional arrangements characterize contextsof war, but also peace.

      This article examines a unique relationship-specifically, the connection between the rule of law, as it is imported andexperienced in post-conflict/post-repression societies, and gender. We assert that some of the most gendered and problematic dimensions of rule of law discourse and practice canarise with intensity in post-conflict or post-repressive societies. In particular, we explore a fundamental contradiction. Transitional societies bring powerful and transformativemoments to global attention. The rule of law movement gainscachet from being a defining and motivating cog in that transitional process. Yet such transformation can be selective, both in its spheres of influence and in its masculinity. While transformation may occur, the pivotal question we raise is for whom?

    40. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones
      Do you think it equitable that trans-women misapropriate the sex-class of “woman”?


      Appendix 1

      Access to Justice and Gender Equality

      1. What is access to justice and why is it important for gender equality?

      Access to justice is important for gender equality because it enables equitable enjoyment of a whole range of rights and resources. Law and justice institutions play a key role in the distribution of rights and resources among women and men across all sectors. They underpin the forms and functions of other institutions and reflect and shape development outcomes.11 Access to justice therefore is not just a right by itself, it is also a means to ensure equitable outcomes12.

      Access to justice is, more than just making use of the courts (and other justice systems) or providing legal representation, as it is sometimes narrowly defined13. It involves:

      – Negotiating for equitable rules and processes for effective and sustainable change (rules);

      – Influencing the form and function of institutions that deliver public services and regulate access to resources (structures); and

      – Empowering the marginalized to challenge inequalities, individually and collectively, their rights and resources (empowerment).

    41. Smallaxe says:


      Look up my name if you want to find out who ‘hogs’ Off Topic, I think my friend Cameron’s comments will come a poor second to my inane drivelling and copious amounts of music played, just go back a page and this will become very apparent to you.

      We all have our different ways of expressing ourselves, here and on the M/Thread, so if anyone doesn’t like a certain person’s comments then it’s easily enough remedied by scrolling on past and moving on to something that does interest them.

      Please confine any complaints you may have about Cameron to the main thread if you wish to do so as O/T is generally used by others to pass messages, chat and play music or, as in all cases, post whatever we feel like. We’re an inclusive and mixed bunch of punters here on O/T and it’s an extremely rare occasion to have anyone complain about other persons posts/comments.

      I hope you have an enjoyable and Peaceful day, smithie.

    42. Smallaxe says:

      Good afternoon, William Wallace, CameronB and Brian Doonthetoon. 🙂

      Wull, I meant what I said, my friend.

    43. CameronB Brodie says:

      Afternoon Smallaxe.

      Nina Simone – Feeling Good

    44. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. compelling arguments against Brexit. From a normative legal theory perspective, Brexit is a bit dodgy, mk. Remember, Brexit was funded by “dark money” and articulates English cultural exceptionalism. It also strips Scottish residents of their human rights.

      Brexit demonstrates the need for a normative theory of political disintegration

      Behind these questions about Brexit looms a challenge for political theory. We are used to asking: What justifies the existence of public authority? We are not used to asking: How should we proceed if we want to dissolve it? Canonical works such as Hobbes’s Leviathan have taught us that having a political order is preferable to not having one. Our research agendas have focused on how public authority can be established in a legitimate way and how it should be structured, in particular in terms of individual rights and political participation. Brexit, by contrast, aims at a revocation of political power. In an unprecedented move, a member state seeks to divest the EU of the competence to subject it to binding decisions. This development prompts the need for a normative theory of disintegration….

      The UK’s Sovereignty Situation: Brexit, Bewilderment and Beyond?…

      Leaving the EU? The Legal Impact of “Brexit” on the United Kingdom

    45. Michael McCabe says:

      Hi just jumping in to say hi to all the regulars in here. And it’s so good to see you posting again Smallaxe my friend. All the best to all of you. Will be back posting soon. ? ? ???????

    46. CameronB Brodie says:

      From a Constitutional Legal Theory perspective, Brexit doesn’t appear any less dodgy. Westminster’s desire to ignore Scotland’s popular sovereignty is an act of despotism, IMHO. It also relegates Scots law to an obsolite afterthought.

      What the fuck is UK constitutional law when it is at home, other than old school imperialism?


      Brexit will leave a gap in our constitution in terms of the protection of human rights. This gap could well be filled by the judges. If that happens, Brexit will increase the danger of a clash between the judges and Parliament. In addition, Brexit might prove to be a constitutional moment for Britain, since it may strengthen the case for Britain following nearly every other democracy in developing a codified constitution which provides for the judicial protection of human rights.

      Stephen Tierney: Was the Brexit Referendum Democratic?

      The UK Constitution After Miller: Brexit and Beyond

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      Early Clover & The Georgia Soul Drifters – Freedom

    48. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Michael,

      Good to hear from you. I hope that you’re keeping okay. Don’t leave your return to O/T too long, you and your excellent choice of music are badly missed, my friend.

      Chicago: “I’m a Man”

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. independence qualifying as a philosophical belief. From a Normative Legal Theory perspective, self-ditermination is one of the fundamental principle underpinning the international rule of law. As such, self-determination has enormousness normative significance.

      Freedom beyond the threshold: self-determination, sovereignty, and global justice


      In current debates about global justice, statist and nationalist theories appeal to the right to self-determination in argument against egalitarianism beyond borders, and in general as a reason for caution about substantive international duties of justice, lest the exercise of self-determination would be too tightly constrained. Has self-determination – an important heritage of decolonization – no longer a role to play in the argument against international inequality and disempowerment?

      In this article, I examine a dominant interpretation of self-determination in the global justice debate, as defended prominently by John Rawls and David Miller and find it wanting. Specifically, two challenges are raised: at the conceptual level this interpretation leaves unclarified the distinction and relationship between sovereignty and self-determination; at the normative level, this interpretation adopts a sufficiency view of international distributive justice that neglects that problem of relative extents and measures of self-determination, beyond the threshold. While the article’s argument is mainly of a critical scope, it is suggested that a more robust theoretical account is required of the content of the right of self-determination, and in particular of the freedoms that the right confers to the right-holders in the socioeconomic domains and their extents.

      sovereignty; self-determination; global justice; John Rawls; David Miller;
      international investment law

      Political Self-Determination and the Normative Significance of Territorial Boundaries

      A Normative Theory of International Law Based on New Natural Law Theory

    50. CameronB Brodie says:

      From the perspective of Social and Political Philosophy, self-determination is equally a fundamental human right.

      Self-determination and the right to establish a government

      A version of this paper was read to a seminar of the Philosophical Psychology, Morality and Politics Research Unit, Department of Systematic Theology, University of Helsinki.

      Abstract: The right of “national self-determination” sometimes claimed for ethnic/religious/linguistic groups is not to be confused with the right to rebel against tyranny or with a right to secede, and it is limited by respect for the territorial integrity of functioning states. In some cases self-determination may take the form of some sort of autonomy within a mixed state. Ockham’s use of the canon ius civile suggests another human right, not much thought of these days, namely a right to live under government-under good government careful of the rights and liberties of its subjects. This is a right that belongs to any set of people not already under government, whether or not they constitute a “people” or a “nation”. It has relevance to the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel.

      A Critical Analysis of the Self-determination of Peoples: A Cosmopolitan Perspective

      National Self-Determination

    51. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ann-Margret – I Ain’t Gonna Be Your Fool No More

    52. CameronB Brodie says:

      Positivism is old school science. The New Classical Natural Law Theory aims to remove positivism from legal doctrine.

      What is New Classical Natural Law Theory?

    53. CameronB Brodie says:

      The law generally lags behind social change. As such, the legal interpretation of social morality often does not meet social expectations.

      Jurisprudence – Natural Law

    54. Smallaxe says:

      I’ll see your jurisprudence, Cameron and raise you a…;

      “Dear Prudence” Alanis Morrisette;

    55. CameronB Brodie says:

      From the perspective of International Relations Theory, self-determination is also viewed as a fundamental human right, though there is uncertainty as to how this right should be implemented. MK. 🙂

      The right to self-determination in international politics: six theories in search of a policy


      The principle of the self-determination of peoples is enshrined in the United Nations Charter and based on liberal and democratic values. However, the international community has, until recently, interpreted this principle very restrictively, so that it has amounted to little more than the right to be free from European colonialism. The collapse of the USSR and Yugoslavia, as well as persistent ethno-nationalist conflicts around the world, have provoked new thinking about the right of self-determination in political theory. This article reviews six theories, and identifies what they have in common and on what they differ. It draws some cautious policy conclusions from this analysis and, in doing so, seeks to clarify the role and limits of theory in international politics.

      Self-Determination, Identity and International Relations


      In this paper, I argue that self-determination constitutes the selves by which it is claimed. I base this argument on a reflexivist conception of identity. The process, I suggest, goes like this. Human groups striving for political independence, autonomy, or a share in state power draw on the norm of self-determination to seek international support and recognition. This norm epitomizes general ideas of freedom, justice and the good life, but it also legitimizes (and illegitimates) concrete ways of bound and rule political communities. These ideas and rules enter the process by which the group construes as a self. They influence the thinking and acting of the group upon itself, and so get reflected in its constitution

      International Society, State Sovereignty, and National Self-Determination

      Abstract and Keywords

      The idea of an international society of sovereign states predates the era of nationalism and the elevation of the principle of the self-determination of people to its present status as an inalienable human right (Articles 1.2 and 55 of the UN Charter). The nationalization of the sovereignty principle immediately raised the question, however, of which groups could legitimately claim the right to self-determination and state recognition? Neither in theory nor practice has this question proved easy to answer. This chapter traces the attempts to do so in the twentieth century, the emergence of an orthodox interpretation after 1945, i.e. self-determination as decolonization, the impact of the cold war, and attempts to widen the interpretation in the context of self-determination disputes in different parts of the world that have arisen since 1989. The chapter concludes that the present situation is confused and that no new consensus has unambiguously emerged.

      Keywords: Sovereignty, self-determination, international society, secession, irredentism, ethnic nationalism, civic nationalism

      P.S. Does a belief in the principle of universal human rights and the international rule of law, count as a philosophy? Does England’s embrace of ethnic nationalism also count as a philosophy?

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ll see you and raise you a..; 😉

      Chaka Khan – Like Sugar

    57. Smallaxe says:

      Cameron, I’ll see your ‘Like Sugar’ and raise you…

      “Sugar Pie Honey Bunch” – Dj Ko Remix;

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      Back at you.

      Sugar Pie Desanto – Rock Me Baby

    59. Smallaxe says:

      Back at you, Cameron, only double:

      The Archies – “Sugar, Sugar” (remix)

    60. CameronB Brodie says:

      You win. 😉

    61. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Bobby Gillespie on This Week. Britain’s political class and the media minions appear to have forgotten the principles of moral social conduct, a.k.a. the foundational role of a Social Contract.

      The Ethics of Political Participation: Engagement and Democracy in the 21st Century

      Democracy Participation Engagement Civil society Voting

      Democracy today faces many challenges: increasing political inequality, the decline of widespread political participation, voter incompetence, the increasing power of non-majoritarian organisations and institutions on the domestic and global stages, the rise of global problems requiring multilateral collective action, the growing need for specialised expertise in an increasingly complex public policy environment, and the existence of often radical forms of social, political, and moral pluralism all combine to exert significant pressure on existing democratic regimes. They also problematise many of our core assumptions about democracy and its justification.

      According to one familiar story, the theoretical strength of democracy over other regimes is grounded in strong commitments to political equality and individual liberty, best realised and protected by democratic systems. Individuals enjoy an equal ability to influence the political agenda, either directly or via representatives, and to have their concerns feed into wider processes of decision making and policy formation. Functioning democracies provide meaningful opportunities for citizens to communicate their concerns to decision makers and thereby effectively track the will of the people. Democratic government is self-government: citizens are free in so far as they live as equals under institutions and laws which are accountable to them and which they could change or reject if they so wished….

      Individualism vs. Collectivism: Our Future, Our Choice

      What is the Objectivist View of Law and Government (Politics)?

    62. CameronB Brodie says:

      Smallaxe 🙂

    63. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Kevin Hague
      Fascism is so twentieth century, you spanner? Here’s a Social and Political Philosophy view of what you stand against. Dick head.

      Self?Determination: Politics, Philosophy, and Law

      This chapter examines the empirical complexities of territorially based ethnic separation (boundaries) against the growing philosophical justifications for self?determination. Horowitz argues that ‘clean breaks’ are not likely, not least because ethnicity itself is a contextual and therefore mutable affiliation, and argues that more attention should be paid to encourage domestic measures of interethnic accommodation.

      Keywords: accommodation, affiliation, borders, boundaries, ethnicity, national pluralism, secession, self?determination

    64. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Kevin Hague
      Do you really oppose the spirit of Enlightenment, fannybaz?

      Kant’s Social and Political Philosophy

      First published Tue Jul 24, 2007; substantive revision Thu Sep 1, 2016

      Kant wrote his social and political philosophy in order to champion the Enlightenment in general and the idea of freedom in particular. His work came within both the natural law and the social contract traditions. Kant held that every rational being had both an innate right to freedom and a duty to enter into a civil condition governed by a social contract in order to realize and preserve that freedom….



      Self-determination implies the right of a particular group of people to determine for themselves how and by whom they wish to be governed. The principle was little known for much of human history, as groups were either small self-governing communities whose legitimacy was based on religion or culture or, within kingdoms and empires, communities that had no expectation that people could choose their rulers. In the 18th and 19th centuries, political philosophers began to assert that nations or peoples—groups possessing a shared ethnicity, history, language, and/or culture—should control their “own” government, rather than be subjected to alien or foreign rule….



      While self-determination is a cardinal principle of international law, its meaning is often obscure. Yet international law clearly recognizes decolonization as a central application of the principle. Most ordinary people also agree that the liberation of colonial peoples was a moral triumph. This essay examines three philosophical theories of self-determination’s value, and asks which one best captures the reasons why decolonization was morally required. The instrumentalist theory holds that decolonization was required because subject peoples were unjustly governed, the democratic view holds that decolonization was required because subject peoples lacked democratic representation, and the associative view holds that decolonization was required because subject peoples were unable to affirm the political institutions their colonial rulers imposed on them.

      I argue that the associative view is superior to competing accounts, because it better reflects individuals’ “maker” interests in participating in shared political projects that they value. The essay further shows that if we accept the associative view, self-determination is not a sui generis value that applies to decolonization alone. Ultimately, our intuitions about decolonization can be justified only by invoking an interest on the part of persistently alienated groups in redrawing political boundaries. The same interest may justify self-determination in additional cases, such as autonomy for indigenous peoples, or greater independence for Scotland or Quebec.

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Kevin Hague
      Your are a British nationalist, a state of being that opposes patriotism to Scotland. My advice to you is to fuck right off or hud you whist, as your loyaty is to Queen and country, i.e. England, not to the people of Scotland.

      Nationalism and Patriotism

      Abstract and Keywords

      This chapter, which first defines nationalism by describing its features, looks at nations, states, and nation-states, and then examines nationalism’s relationship to patriotism. It then turns to the history of the nation and considers its existence as an imagined community. The narrative and liturgical nature of nationalism places it firmly in the sphere of religion. It is theology, and not race, politics, geography, or law that provides the best lens through which to critically observe nationalism. Søren Kierkegaard is one theological critic who is well placed to challenge nationalism’s idolatrous and anti-social tendencies. His attack upon the self-deified establishment of Christendom contains many points of contact with theological nationalism. The chapter examines the outlines of his critique and then considers the positive contributions that a non-nationalistic, nonpatriotic account of identity can make to a Christian theology of social life.

      Keywords: theology, Søren Kierkegaard, Christendom, identity, social life, theological nationalism, patriotism

      What’s the difference between patriotism and nationalism?

      Cosmopolitan Patriotism in J. S. Mill’s Political Thought and Activism

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Kevin Hague
      Are you a thinking, reflexive, human being or a slave to One Nation ideology? Do you think Brexit articulates ethical or illiberal values, in relation to Scotland’s vote to Remain? Here’s some Moral and Political Philosophy that might help you decide.

      Boundaries and Allegiances: Problems of Justice and Responsibility in Liberal Thought


      This book is a collection of eleven essays by one of the most interesting moral philosophers currently writing. It examines challenges to liberal thought posed by the changing circumstances of the modern world such as the conflicting tendencies toward global integration, and greater ethnic and communal identification. The author considers whether liberal principles of justice can accommodate social and global interdependencies while reaffirming the importance of individual responsibility and acknowledging the significance of people’s diverse personal and communal allegiances

      Political science Liberalism Justice Responsibility Globalization

      The moral psychology of Europeanness: Diversified, horizontal affectivity


      The question the authors of this paper raise is what kind of positive emotional at-titudes the sustained, fruitful existence of the European Union (EU) takes on the part of its citizens. It is argued that the EU as a polity is an inappropriate object for patriotism. The emotions the authors envisage as constituting the necessary affective basis for the political community are based on developing horizontal relationships among citizens and their relationships to institutions that the EU makes possible.

      A general theory of constitutional patriotism

      This article offers a theory of constitutional patriotism independent of the controversial social theories of modernization and rationalization with which Jürgen Habermas’s version of constitutional patriotism is associated. It argues that the purpose of constitutional patriotism, as a set of beliefs and dispositions, is to enable and uphold a liberal democratic form of rule that free and equal citizens can justify to each other. The object of patriotic attachment is a specific constitutional culture that mediates between the universal and the particular, while the mode of attachment is one of critical judgment. Finally, constitutional patriotism results in a number of policy recommendations that are clearly different from policies that liberal nationalists would advocate.

    67. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Kevin Hague
      Ever hear of post-colonial theory?


      However, there are innumerable other ways in which discourses and practices related to the notions of nation and nationalism can be experienced, perceived and defined. Preference for one particular definition over others will largely depend on factors like one’s location, or one’s religious, racial, cultural and linguistic identity and background. In addition to this local short term and long term memories, histories and divisions, political contexts, social and economic issues and ideological predilections at conscious as well as unconscious levels determine how an individual is likely to respond to, conceive or imagine him/herself as a member of a particular nation-state.

      As this chapter sets out to critically examine this very important political, social and cultural category, Grosby’s definition, given above, offers itself merely as a suitable starting point. The theoretical objective of writing this chapter is to present nation as an unresolved problematic – as an idea that has not only been eternally critiqued but which craves eternal critiquing – particularly so in postcolonial spaces where the uncertainties surrounding it become even more pronounced. The opinions and theories on nation and nationalism are so varied and mutually incompatible that the chapter is bound to become a little abstract in studying them. However, since the present thesis has nation and nationalism as the theoretical framework against which Rohinton Mistry’s fiction is to be studied; it becomes important to consider, even if briefly, the various theoretical and academic positions on the subject so that appropriate selections can be made in the successive chapters when they are to be applied to the works of fiction under study….

      Cosmopolitanism, Communitarianism and the Subaltern

      This essay takes as its point of departure, the debate between cosmopolitanism and communitarianism in international normative theory. It expresses several dissatisfactions with this debate, criticizing its inattention to politics and history, its Eurocentrism, and the simplistic imageries of threat on which attitudes towards boundaries in the debate are premised. In attempting to remedy these problems, it recasts the figure of the subaltern that haunts this debate — hitherto imagined as a passive recipient of Western largesse — as an active agent struggling for emancipation, and contrasts the potentials of cosmopolitanism and communitarianism to function as vocabularies in which such struggles might be articulated….

      Aretha Franklin – Think

    68. CameronB Brodie says:

      I feel the need to defend the social sciences, again, so here’s a social science view of Intersectionality.

      The Significance of Intersectionality for Feminist Political Theory

      Intersectionality is most often invoked as a methodological approach, but what is its significance for feminist political theory?

      The concept of intersectionality has made a significant contribution to feminist theory. In fact, McCall (2005, pp. 1771) has stated, “intersectionality is the most important theoretical contribution that women’s studies has made so far”. Despite its popularity amongst feminist scholars intersectionality has also been subject to much contestation. Due to the ambiguity surrounding this concept, the exact definition of intersectionality, in addition to how the concept should be utilised, is a source of disagreement amongst feminist scholars (Smooth 2013). Nevertheless, as this essay argues, intersectionality is extremely significant for feminist theory and has made an important contribution to feminist scholarship.

      This essay argues that intersectionality is significant for feminist theory for two main reasons. First, intersectionality allows for feminist theorists to account for the differences between women. Although this may appear to be a simplistic observation, it has important implications for feminist theory and practice. Second, as a result of the diverse applicability of intersectionality, it has been embraced by various strands of feminist theory, providing a means of cooperation between scholars who have differing theoretical stances….


      Incorporating intersectionality theory into population health research methodology: Challenges and the potential to advance health equity

    69. Fred says:

      Used to come on here for a bit of crack, it wid terr holes in yer drawers noo!

    70. Smallaxe says:

      Right said Fred: “You are my(manky) mate”

      Wher’s that big turnip Tinto Chiel?

    71. CameronB Brodie says:

      Science is under attack from both the right and the left wing. What do you want me to do, remain silent?

    72. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Smallaxe: I see myself as more of a tumshie and Mrs Tinto agrees. Did you know she is a Swede?

      I’ve been musing, btw.

    73. Smallaxe says:

      Ah, Tinto,

      I see you sneaked in while I was drinking my dinner. 😉
      I was aware that your good lady was a Swede, so much sweeter than a tumshie. Don’t cha know!

      Ian Dury & the Blockheads: “Sweet Gene Vincent”

    74. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Smallaxe –

      Brilliant Dury track there.


      Have had a riff playing endlessly in ma big heid since last week and couldn’t pinpoint what it was. It’s the bass line from this:

      Gil Scott-Heron, ‘Lady Day & John Coltrane’ –

    75. Ian Brotherhood says:

      On Twitter I follow a dude called David Taylor (@taylordauthor) – in the queue at Lidl today I burst out laughing upon remembering a tweet he wrote in the wake of all that shite about a ‘black panther’ lepping around the Drongan area. Can’t locate the original tweet, but he said he spotted what he thought was a kangaroo in an Ayrshire field but it turned out to be a greyhound having a shite.


    76. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gender self-ID is bad, mk. It serves to undermines the place of women in society, in addition to undoing the social empowerment of women (biological and trans). Gender self-ID inevitably articulates misogyny.

      The Role of Gender Identification in Social Dominance Orientation: Mediating or Moderating the Effect of Sex?


      Previous research has shown that people’s gender identification correlates with their social dominance orientation (SDO). A question is whether gender identification mediates or moderates the effect of biological sex on SDO. We examined the correlations of sex and gender identification with SDO using the Bem Sex Role Inventory in Study 1 and a gender diagnostic measure in Study 2. Both studies showed that gender identification was significantly associated with SDO. In Study 1, gender identification partially mediated the effect of sex on SDO; and in Study 2, this mediation was complete. There were no indications that gender identification moderated the effect of sex on SDO. The results are discussed against the background of the gender invariance hypothesis of SDO.

      Social Dominance Theory

      Cultural and Institutional Determinants of Social Dominance Orientation: A Cross?Cultural Meta?Analysis of 27 Societies

    77. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      A fabulous cover of the most recorded song of all time

    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry peeps but this gender self-ID must be stopped. It threatens the liberty and human right we all notionally posses. It is the thin end of the wedge.

      Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny


      What is misogyny? And (why) is it still occurring? This book explores the logic of misogyny, conceived in terms of the hostilities women face because they are living in a man’s world, or one that has been until recently. It shows how misogyny may persist in cultures in which its existence is routinely denied—including the United States, Australia, and the United Kingdom, which are often alleged to be post-patriarchal. Not so, Down Girl argues. Misogyny has rather taken particular forms following the advent of legal equality, obligating women to be moral “givers,” and validating a sense of entitlement among her privileged male counterparts.

      Many of rape culture’s manifestations are canvassed—from the ubiquitous entreaty “Smile, sweetheart!” to Donald Trump’s boasts of grabbing women by the “pussy,” which came to light during his successful 2016 presidential campaign; from the Isla Vista killings in California to the police officer in Oklahoma who preyed on African American women with criminal records, sexually assaulting them in the knowledge they would have little legal recourse; from the conservative anti-abortion movement to online mobbings of women in public life, deterring the participation therein of all but the most privileged and well-protected. It is argued on this basis that misogyny often takes the form of taking from her what she is (falsely) held to owe him, and preventing her from competing for positions of masculine-coded power and authority. And he, in turn, may be held to owe her little.

      Keywords: misogyny, male dominance, feminism, ethics, social philosophy, moral psychology, politics and culture

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      Another cover.

      Wilbert Harrison – Kansas City

    80. smithie says:

      Smallaxe i know you and others post a lot on here and there is nothing wrong with that at all….thats what this page is for after all, but you….shall we say… are normal and just chat away and have fun as is how it should be…… you just say your bit and dont post loads of “stuff”. I did say i regretted getting personal with Cameron and i meant it….i was in the wrong.
      Btw William Wallace…you have calmed down a lot on OT and its a pleasure to read your comments now but dont say who made me “gaffer”….thats not what i intended but hey….i can still say what i feel ?…unless i missed a ruling earlier?

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      Got a problem with edumacation?

    82. Smallaxe says:

      I have a few things to see to over the next few days, can I just say;

      Go placidly, folks.

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      Are you up for a pint and a chat? I’ll be back in Dundee tomorrow.

    84. Fred says:

      @ Smallaxe, thems good words kid, in another & distant time I could see U waggin yer heid in a pulpit! Still smiling at Ian’s Drungan marsupial!

      Thanks for that song kid. Bests tae the Double Duke!

    85. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Though I might do a Glesga version

      Ahm gaun tae Glesga city
      Glesga city here ah come
      Ahm gaun tae Glesga city
      Glesga city here ah come
      There’s some crazy little burds therr and ah’m gonnie get me wan.

      Ah might take the bus, ah might take the tube
      But If ah hiv tae walk there ah’ll get tae thon Garscube
      Ahm gaun tae Glesga city
      Glesga city here ah come
      There’s some crazy little burds therr and ah’m gonnie get me wan

      Ah’m gonna be standin at the bus stop
      Oota that auld Carntyne
      Standin at the bus stop
      Leaving that auld Carntyne
      With ma Coocaddens burdie
      An a boatle o’ Eldorado wine
      (Drawers right doon by nine ?)

      I’m going to Kansas City
      Kansas City here I come
      I’m going to Kansas City
      Kansas City here I come
      They got a crazy way of loving there and I’m gonna get me one
      I’m gonna be standing on the corner
      12th Street and Vine
      I’m gonna be standing on the corner
      12th Street and Vine
      With my Kansas City baby and a bottle of Kansas City wine
      Well, I might take a plane; I might take a train
      But if I have to walk, I’m going just the same
      I’m going to Kansas City
      Kansas City here I come
      They got some crazy little women there and I’m gonna get me one

    86. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –


      Great stuff.

      Congratulations on the article on MT – certainly set the cat amongst the proverbials and fitting that it hosts the 800,000th reader comment because it’s such an important topic, one which will persist as a ‘problem’ long after we’re independent.

    87. Chick McGregor says:

      14 ac and 15 dn both seem certain fits but the end letter of 14 ac ‘d’ doesn’t fit with the first letter of 15 dn ‘o’.

      A mistake?

    88. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Chick –

      In today’s?

      Haven’t even seen it yet. I never do Tuesday’s XW.


    89. Chick McGregor says:

      yes today’s

      Didn’t think it was yours.

      14 ac A pull recalled in prize. answer ‘AwArd’
      15 dn Lone rider’s surpringly second showing good management.
      answer ‘oRdErLinEsS’ anag of lone riders and s.

      Thinking the compiler may have misread a hand written ‘d’ for an ‘o’?

    90. Benhope says:

      On the Unwelcoming Committee thread yesterday I noticed Izzie`s comment at 7.03 comparing Billy Connolly to Robert Burns as the Establishment`s Pet Scot.

      I recently read James Barke`s series of books on the life of RB and find this comment very offensive.To compare Connolly to Burns is a total joke.

      Burns had to tread a very thin line in concealing his republican politics while retaining his job with the excise to support his wife and large family.

    91. Sarah says:

      @Ian brotherhood Oct 21st: On a similar theme, I still snigger when I remember, at a time when sightings of “large cats” were often being reported in Devon, my husband who worked in Devon telling me about a client who had an accident on a country road due to a tree blocking the road and “a jaguar leaping out of the branches”.

      I naturally thought he was talking about a large member of the cat family so responded appropriately, as I thought, only to see the puzzled look on hubby’s face. It was in fact a Jaguar car that burst through the branches…

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      Only me. Sorry for taking up so much space re. gender ideology, it’s just that I see the uncritical adoption of it by public institutions, as a serious threat to the philosophy of science and practice. It returns our understanding of language to that of Wittgenstein’s early logical positivism, and removes the potential for experiential verification of theory. As such, gender ideology hollows out the thoughts of JS Mill, Karl Popper, C.S.Peirce and the pragmatic maxim from scientific inquiry.

      The meaning of language is not a social construct, in the Wittgenstein sense, it requires experiential verification for the confirmation of meaning. A return to the neo-positivism that dominated science between the wars, would be ideally suited to the totalitarian management of society under a paradigm of authoritarian capitalism.

      We need academic philosophers to stand up and defend science. My blt comments are not adequate to the task.

      Verificationism: Its History and Prospects

    93. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Steve Bannon on the BBC. When do you think would be the best time to comment? I think I’ve got a cracker. 😉

      Ray Charles – (Night time Is) The Right Time

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      And there was me thinking Gerry Hassan wasn’t ideologically bound. Party and branch office before nation just won’t cut it as Brexit approaches.

      Aretha Franklin – A Deeper Love

    95. Chick McGregor says:



      14 ac was ‘award’ and 15 dn was ‘orderliness’


      Or as Homer might say ‘Do(h)’ 🙂

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      Chick McGregor
      I feel I’m definitely encroaching on your natural stomping ground. Any thoughts on how to go about verifying facts when meaning is dislocated from objective reality?

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Owen Jones appears committed to the idea of doing good but I’m not sure he fully appreciates the consequences of his actions. Does his voice count though, what’s his experience of womanhood? Are they not the one’s being asked to share their spaces and cultural significance?

      Understanding People
      Normativity and Rationalizing Explanation

      chapter 4
      Explaining Normative Import

      5. Intentions, beliefs, and psychological commitment
      A crucial feature of the view I shall defend is that the Implication Commitment Principle and the Means–End Commitment Principle are constitutive principles—partial specifications of what it is to believe something or intend something. They are also conceptual principles. Grasping the concept of intention commits one to accepting the Means–End Commitment Principle; grasping the concept of belief commits one to accepting the Implication Commitment Principle. That there should be constitutive normative principles is not puzzling. I shall comment on two such principles that serve as analogues for the Means–End and Implication Commitment Principles. The first is the

      Promise Commitment Principle: For any x, f, if x promises to f then x incurs a commitment to fing.

      The other is the
      Dean Commitment Principle: For any x, if x is Dean then x incurs a commitment to carrying out the duties of Dean.

      These are not principles connecting the non-normative to the normative in the way the Means–End and Commitment Principles are supposed to do, on the dispositionalist reading to which I have been objecting. They are constitutive principles. The first partially specifies what it is to promise something. The second partially specifies what it is to be Dean. They are also conceptual principles. Grasping the concept of a promise commits one to accepting the Promise Commitment Principle. Grasping the concept of Dean commits one to accepting the Dean Commitment Principle. I take the Means–End Commitment Principle and the Implication Commitment Principle to be analogous to the Promise Commitment Principle and the Dean Commitment Principle, at least in the respect that they are constitutive and conceptual.65

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ouch, Adam Smith emphasised the relationship between moral assessments in terms of propriety and in terms of merit. Given the number of deaths attributed to DWP policy, I’m not sure if this is a fruitful line of attack. I suppose it’s better than “no surrender” though.

      The theory of moral sentiments
      SECT. II. Of the sentiment by which we ap|prove or disapprove of the pas|sions and affections of other men, as suitable or unsuitable to their objects.

      CHAP. II. Of the manner in which we judge of the propriety or impropriety of the affections of other men, by their concord or disso|nance with our own.

      WHEN the original passions of the person principally concerned are in perfect concord with the sympathetic emo|tions of the spectator, they necessarily ap|pear to this last just and proper, and suit|able to their objects; and, on the contrary, when, upon bringing the case home to him|self, he finds that they do not coincide with what he feels, they necessarily appear to him unjust and improper, and unsuitable to the causes which excite them. To ap|prove of the passions of another, therefore, as suitable to their objects, is the same thing, as to observe that we intirely sympathize with them; and not to approve of them as such, is the same thing as to observe that we do not entirely sympathize with them. The man who resents the inju|ries that have been done to me, and ob|serves that I resent them precisely as he does, necessarily approves of my resentment.;view=fulltext

    99. CameronB Brodie says:

      Community and economic robustness are not best served through neoliberalism and a TINA outlook. Not to mention Brexit, which can be expected to hurt women the most. Your party’s economic quackery has had its day, frankly.

      Morality in a Natural World

      Part One
      Naturalism: Epistemology and Metaphysics

      3 Moral Naturalism and Self-Evident Moral Truths

      1. THE ISSUE
      It is intuitively plausible that there are substantive moral propositions that are ‘self-evident.’ It is plausible, for example, that, “other things equal, it is wrong to take pleasure in another’s pain, to taunt and threaten the vulnerable, to prosecute and punish those known to be innocent, . . . to sell another’s secrets solely for personal gain,” and “to torture others just for fun.”1 It is plausible that these propositions are true, and it is plausible that they are self-evident. In what follows, I refer to them as “the common sense principles.” And I will call the thesis that some such propositions are self-evident “the self-evidence thesis.”

      It is not entirely clear how to understand the idea of a self-evident proposition. Intuitively, a self-evident proposition is one that is obviously true without the need for any proof or argument. But the term “selfevident” is used as a technical term in philosophy, and philosophers have meant different things by it. Russ Shafer-Landau, who gives the common sense principles as examples, proposes a stipulative definition.2 Expressed informally, his idea is that “once one really understands” the common sense principles, “(including the ceteris paribus clause),” one is justified in believing them.3 Robert Audi proposes a somewhat different definition. He suggests that a self-evident proposition is such that anyone who “adequately understands” it would be justified in believing it and would know it if he believed it on the basis of this understanding.4

    100. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Cactus.

      Twas you what decided to resurrect dead pages! Are you the Will o’ the Wisp? Stick a comment on a dead page then hightail it out of there?

      Ya varmint!


    101. CameronB Brodie says:

      I thought you might benefit from some moral instruction, given neoliberalism widens and deepens social polarisation, particularly health inequalities. TINA and trickle-down economics have failed. Your English counterparts have ripped the yoonyawn apart, yet you still allude to moral authority. Your lack of self-awareness is simply stunning.


      9 Genetic accounts which debunk morality

      Nietzsche, Freud, and Marx are the three great modern debunkers of morality. While their theories differ in quite fundamental respects, they are alike in two respects. First, each offers an account of the origins of, or an explanation of, our having the moral beliefs we do. Second, the account given in each case suggests that in making moral judgements and taking them at face value we deceive ourselves or become subject to quite basic illusions. According to them, making moral judgements involves a serious misunderstanding of the world or of ourselves. All three give accounts which have seemed to many to undermine, or pose a critique of, moral notions….

      Nietzsche, in the first essay of the Genealogy of Morals (1967), gives a psychological account of the origins of what he calls ‘slave morality’. This term covers a very wide range of value systems, indeed it would seem to cover most of the influential moral systems in western thought, e.g. Stoicism, many strands of Christianity, Kantian ethics, many socialist views, universalist humanitarian values, and also most of the ethical theories we have discussed in any detail. And while it might be a bit ethnocentric, there is some plausibility in supposing Nietzsche meant ‘slave morality’ to cover anything we might normally call a morality or a normative ethics.

      Nietzsche’s psychological thesis is that ‘slave morality’ arises in certain ways as a psychological reaction to a (psychologically) prior value system, ‘master morality’. And so Nietzsche’s theory of slave morality cannot be given without first discussing his account of master morality. Nietzsche’s discussion of master morality is of interest to us for at least two reasons.

      First, it is of relevance to the discussion of this chapter as a necessary part of Nietzsche’s account of the psychological origins of slave morality, and thus of the way in which Nietzsche seems to debunk morality. But, second, Nietzsche’s description of master morality is also of interest just as a description of a radically different set of social values which, by contrast with ones we are more familiar with, sets our own into more relief. For our discussion of descriptive relativism (in chapters 8 and 10), it provides a rather striking example of what a rather different set of social values would be like. At least it contrasts sharply with the Stoic-Christian-Kantian-humanitarian tradition. It gives us a better grasp of the wide diversity there might be in values.

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’d say MBallantyneMSP’s passion was quite animated and rather revealing. So it’s forwards to full-fat, thoroughly chlorinated, austerity Brexitania then. Right then.

      The Undisputed Truth – Smiling Faces Sometimes

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think Scottish Tories for Yes should really reconsider a name change. Just a personal opinion.

      The Dramatics – Whatcha See is Whatcha Get

    104. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Sarah –


      I remember a Japanese student asking me to confirm a story he’d heard about the Loch Ness Monster (hugely popular in Japan) which involved Nessie jumping from a tree in front of a busload of tourists and making treatening facial gestures at them before leaping into the Loch.

      Naturally, I was more than happy to do so.

    105. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the deterministic and exclusionary nature of MBallantyne MSPs’ comments and subsequent follow-up. From an anthropological perspective, the ideological position she projects is an extremely unhealthy and inhuman one. Prejudice likes company, so sonbs are often racist, who are often anti-sexual expression, and so on. Social prejudice is largely generated by our so-called ‘elites’, then transmitted through the media, where is undermines social cohesion and the potential for positive social change. One only has to look at England’s attempt to regain a sense of former glory, to see this in action (Brexit).

      Are the media and communications industries institutionally racist?

      The Windrush scandal in the UK has revealed how people who arrived in Britain as citizens of its Empire in the post-War years have had their citizenship rights challenged by successive governments trying to create a ‘hostile environment’ for migration, and causing them to suffer significant hardship as a result. It has made painfully visible the fluid nature of ‘belonging’ in Britain, and its constant vulnerability to political or pragmatic considerations. During the days of Empire, for example, the ideological deployment of Whiteness and its utility as a form of property, made it easy to deny the political, economic and citizenship rights of those who could not claim it as their heritage. Post-war, on the other hand, the need for labour meant that the boundaries of citizenship were relaxed. Today, the Home Office’s visa-granting regime tries to balance the political need to be seen to minimize immigration numbers with the urgent pragmatic need for skilled workers in the NHS, academia and elsewhere (often unsuccessfully).

      Admission to the UK, however, has never guaranteed belonging here, and the media industries provide ample illustration of this. From the days of Empire until now, and as numerous studies (see for example, here, here and here) have shown, representations of people of colour by the UK media and promotional industries have repeatedly constructed their marginalization in relation to a white, classed and gendered British norm. Of course, these representations are mythical: as Hall notes, in his conclusion to the book, Un/settled Multiculturalisms (p. 217) ‘there have always been many different ways of being ‘British’’ and communities from Africa and Asia have been present in the United Kingdom for well over 500 years. Why is it that the same media who now champion the Windrush generation normally produce coverage of minorities/immigrants that implicitly justifies the discriminatory policies of governments bent on introducing a ‘hostile environment’?

      The 12 Item Social and Economic Conservatism Scale (SECS)

      The Old-Fashioned Personality


      It is noted that the authoritarian personality theory of Adorno et al is now seldom referred to in race relations research and that the scale used to operationalize the theory (the F scale) is a very poor measure of what it purports to measure (Right-wing authoritarianism). The F scale does have many correlates, however, and the work of Pflaum is referred to support the contention that the F scale in fact taps an old-fashioned orientation. A large correlational study by Kline & Cooper is reinterpreted in this light and it is shown that when pejorative assumptions are discarded, the old-fashioned person would appear to have many potentially admirable characteristics. The new understanding of what the F scale measures is also shown to be helpful in making sense of the findings from many other studies.

    106. CameronB Brodie says:

      Eugenics can’t be un-invented and undeniably influences contemporary bio-ethics, social policy and politics. Exclusion from economic activity also undermines the concept of reproductive rights, as a basic human right. Given the direction of travel that western society appears to be taking, this is rather worrying, in an age of overwhelming right-wing media bias.

      21st century eugenics?
      ….The rationality of science ostensibly evident in contemporary bioethical debates provides the impression of impartiality and equilibrium, just as it did in Nazi Germany. However, past practice and strongly engrained social beliefs can have a profound impact on contemporary and future medical and bioethical procedures. Although eugenic practices are commonly seen as applications of darwinism, they may be better termed as meta-darwinism. Natural selection in a strict sense implies that selection is natural and that whoever survives is fit. In sharp contrast, eugenics requires that natural selection be replaced by intentional human control. Survival in a eugenics-based milieu is artificially manipulated according to some judgment or consensus on what constitutes fitness. The historical eugenic origins of the contemporary discipline of genetic counselling are undeniable….

      Poverty and Social Exclusion in Britain: Research and Resources

      Institutions, Beliefs and Ethics: Eugenics as a Case Study


      The discourse of coercive negative eugenicists is complex and cannot be assumed to be consistent. My aim is not to provide an exhaustive survey of its complexities, but instead to focus on three distinctive patterns of normative
      thinking that are discernible in some of the justifications that eugenicists gave for their worst actions, each of which relies upon rights-based ethical reasoning: (1) emergency exceptionalism, (2) a collective version of the logic of preventive self-defense, and (3) moral status judgments that relegate some individuals to a status that is thought to preclude the possession of certain rights, including reproductive rights, or that exclude some individuals from the class of rightsbearers altogether on the grounds that they are not “productive” members of society but instead represent an unfair drain on social resources.

      It is true that coercive negative eugenicists frequently offered calculations of the social savings that would accrue if “the feeble-minded” or “degenerates” were eradicated. However, it is a mistake to assume that this shows allegiance to utilitarianism, because the tabulation of costs and benefits was already strongly filtered by these three patterns of normative thinking. I refer to these
      patterns as frames, to emphasize that they structured coercive negative eugenic normative thinking. I will show how these frames allowed the rationalization of grossly immoral actions without requiring the abandonment of widely accepted rights-principles. On this account, reasoning that purported to justify coercive negative eugenics did not replace rights-based morality with consequentialism; on the contrary, it explicitly appealed to rights-based morality (even if it also included purely consequentialist strands as well)….

    107. CameronB Brodie says:

      Britain is broken and ignorant Tories, such as MBallantyne, don’t know what to do except blame the poor. I’ve got to worry about this attitude hardening in austerity Brexitania. As does everyone who isn’t stinking rich.

      Poverty and social exclusion in the UK
      Volume 1 – The nature and extent of the problem

      The largest UK research study on poverty and social exclusion ever conducted reveals startling levels of deprivation. 18m people are unable to afford adequate housing; 14m can’t afford essential household goods; and nearly half the population have some form of financial insecurity.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ll admit I’m a bit of a lefty, so here’s a bit of a change in focus, Critical Rationalism and Rational Choice Theory, with a twist. Karl Popper wasn’t a positivist, which is bad, MK.

      Feminism and rational choice theory

      Feminism and rational choice theory have both been hailed as approaches with the potential to revolutionize political science. Apart from a few exceptions, however, work utilizing these two perspectives rarely overlaps. This article reviews their main contributions and explores the potential for a combined approach. It argues that a synthesis of feminism and rational choice theory would involve attending to questions of gender, strategy, institutions, power, and change. The contours and benefits of this approach are illustrated with reference to one particular area of research: the adoption of electoral gender quotas. Despite a current lack of engagement across approaches, this example illustrates that the tools of feminist and rational choice analysis may be brought
      together in productive ways to ask and answer theoretically and substantively important questions in political science.

      Keywords: feminism; rational choice theory; gender quotas; Argentina

      The Contrast between Dogmatic and Critical Arguments


    109. CameronB Brodie says:

      As I said, Popper wasn’t a positivist. Positivists are bad, MK.

      Popper was not a Positivist: Why Critical Rationalism Could be an Epistemology for Qualitative as well as Quantitative Social Scientific Research

    110. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not sure where it’s all coming from, sorry for being such a geek.

      Gramatik – Just Jammin

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, one from a six in one shampoo kind of feminist. Life’s complicated. 🙂

      Opa Tsupa – Les deux Guitares

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      I just watch an economics boffin on the BBC, talking about the likely impact of Brexit. I had to laugh even though the news was dire, as the presenter was totally flummoxed at the lack of positivity from the boffin. Heretic….

      Here’s a Critical peek at the economics of Brexit. Remember, all of this upheaval and uncertainty is necessary to salve England’s ongoing identity crises. It has absolutely nothing to with Scotland. Nada. Nothing. None of our bloody business. Just shut up and eat your porridge.

      Summary and recommendations

      The UK’s exit from the EU marks a step-change in the country’s economic relationship with the bloc. The UK will be moving away from close integration and co-operation with its nearest neighbours, but potentially reopening the opportunity to negotiate trade deals directly with non-EU countries.

      ….The answers vary hugely, as Figure 1 shows. The vast majority of studies conclude that Brexit will reduce economic growth – although the scale of reduction predicted differs. Only one study (by the Economists for Free Trade, EFT) concludes that the UK economy would receive a significant boost from Brexit. Mostly, the differences are not down to hard-to-fathom variation in the complex underlying economic models. Instead, the different answers largely reflect variation in the assumptions fed into those models.

      This report attempts to make clear the assumptions that different studies have made, what evidence they have to support them, and why this leads them to reach diverse conclusions about the possible economic consequences of Brexit for the UK economy….

      Assessing the economic implications of Brexit

      A comprehensive and impartial assessment of the implications of Brexit for economic activity in the UK and the rest of the world.


    113. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, the OxfordEconomics was a commercial site but I gives an idea of what sort of planning the commercial world has to undertake. Anyway, here are some academics who see Brexit as a ‘challenge to devolution’. I see Brexit as expansionist English nationalism, though I would say that.

      The Economic Impacts of Brexit on the UK, its Regions, its Cities and its Sectors

      Funded by the Economic and Social Research Council, “The Economic Impacts of Brexit on the UK, its Regions, its Cities and its Sectors” project started in April 2017 and is part of a series of 25 projects funded by ESRC to support the initiative UK in a Changing Europe coordinated by Professor Anand Menon at King’s College London.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit is England’s baby, Scotland has better rhythm. 😉

      Untangling the case for Brexit: A critical investigation into identity- and rationality-based thinking

      ….This inconsistent, one could argue schizophrenic, attitude towards the EU comes under scrutiny now since it realistically threatens with a Brexit, exactly at a point where the EU is faced with multiple serious, existential threats. International Relations theory can enrich our understanding under two different prisms reflecting causal and constitutive mechanisms. Rationalist theories (liberalism and realism) would scrutinize British official policy and popular attitudes through the prism of rationality and cost-benefit analysis (although the liberals would cast this debate in terms of interests and realists in terms of power) (Rosenau, 1970; Baldwin, 1993). The bottom-line of the argument is that the British would be better off outside, rather than inside, the EU. Social constructivists, on the other hand, would focus on identities and their interaction and would underline British incongruence with continental Europe (Checkel, 1998).

      Starting with the latter, history and geography have played a crucial role in shaping British mentality as distinct from that of continental Europe. The imperial glorious past, the inviolability of British borders and their defensibility during the Second World War against German raids, and its victorious outcome have all synergized to produce a feeling of superiority and distinctiveness of Britain in the post-1945 era. The smooth transition from the British to the US hegemony through the drafting, and branding, of the two entities’ “special relationship” has enabled Britain in practice to stand aloof of the project of European integration in its first decades and retain a special, semi-detached attitude thereafter. Reaction to and the very questioning of EU membership, hence, makes sense on the basis of diverging identities shaped within diverse historical conditions.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one I thought relevant, given the performative turn we’re all being encouraged to embrace. Scottish residents should get used to performing in a manner considered appropriate to those who wish to ‘take back control’. Stand up for the good old-fashioned British values of austerity for the poor, servility to elites, cultural intolerance and a penchant for international buccaneering.

      Performing Brexit: How a post-Brexit world is imagined outside the United Kingdom


      Theresa May’s claim that ‘Brexit means Brexit’ demonstrates the malleability of the concept. The referendum campaign showed that ‘Brexit’ can be articulated to a variety of post-Brexit scenarios. While it is important to analyse how Brexit gives rise to contestation in the United Kingdom, Brexit is also constructed from the outside. Brexit signifies more than the technical complexities of the United Kingdom withdrawing from the European Union. It works both as a promise of a different future and performatively to establish a particular past. Brexit works as a frame with potential to shape perceptions in three domains. The first is identity. How does ‘Brexit’ shape national and European identities in distinct national environments? The second is how Brexit shapes understandings of geopolitical reality and influences conceptions of what is diplomatically possible. Third is the global economy. How does ‘Brexit’ work within intersubjective frames about the nature of global economic order?

      Keywords Brexit, diplomacy, identity, performativity, political economy

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      From the perspective of a post-colonial, feminist, testosterone monkey, this self-ID debate is just getting silly. Sex is not the same as gender. Sex is biological, gender is psychological. Simples.

      Gender Colonialism
      Womanhood is a biological reality. That’s it. It’s not an identity, a prize, an “exclusive club”, or a land to be conquered. The more men regard womanhood as any of those things, the more inclined they are to colonize. Patriarchy regards women as property already, with disastrous consequences.


      The Colonization of Womanhood

    117. CameronB Brodie says:

      Can we try and put this self-ID nonsense to bed, please.

      Michelle M. Lazar (ed.), Feminist Critical Discourse Analysis: Gender, power and ideology in discourse


      As the title suggests, this is a collection of feminist work carried out within the paradigm of Critical Discourse Analysis (CDA), which Michelle Lazar glosses in her editor’s introduction as “a critical perspective on unequal social relations sustained through language use” (p. 1). It does not seem to be a goal of the book to develop a distinctively feminist variant of CDA, or to engage in dialogue with its leading theorists (most of whom are men, and tend to be politically pro-feminist but not deeply influenced by feminism in a theoretical sense). Rather, contributors use established CDA methods to address questions about gender as one case of “unequal social relations sustained through language use.” That in itself is not a new endeavor – gender features as one topic in most books and edited collections of CDA, and it is also the theme of numerous journal articles – but this, perhaps surprisingly, is the first book-length volume specifically dedicated to the subject.

      Discourse Analysis in Language and Gender Studies
      Theories of Discourse as Theories of Gender: Discourse Analysis in Language and Gender Studies

      Widening the Lens of Language and Gender Research: Integrating Critical Discourse Analysis and Cultural Practice Theory

    118. CameronB Brodie says:

      And I’m sure there was someone asking what use is post-structuralism. It helps us see that all identities are socially situated constructs of discursive practices i.e. semiotic signification. 😉

      Feminist Poststructuralism and Discourse Analysis: Contributions to Feminist Psychology


      In this article I suggest that feminist poststructuralism (Weedon, 1987) is of great potential value to feminist psychologists seeking more satisfactory ways of theorizing gender and subjectivity. Some key elements of this theoretical perspective are discussed, including an understanding of knowledge as socially produced and inherently unstable, an emphasis on the importance of language and discourse, and a decentering of the subject. Discourse analysis is discussed as one way of working that is consistent with feminist poststructuralist theory. To illustrate this approach, an example is presented from my work on the sexual coercion of women within heterosexual relationships.

      Feminist Post-Structuralist Discourse Analysis – A New Theoretical and Methodological Approach?

      Feminist Poststructuralism and Discourse Analysis Revisited

    119. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Have just scrolled through the above and noticed your comments on Michelle Ballantyne.

      It’s good that you highlighted her by way of example because I can’t believe she actually realises the implications of what she said. The fact that she repeated it after the FM had roasted her in FMQs suggests that she really doesn’t understand *why* her remarks caused such a reaction.

      People do get put-off by academic treatments of subjects which are fundamentally simple, but we also have to realise that academics are ‘human’ too – they just happen to be working in an industry which demands that they abide by fantastically strict rules on what they can say and how they can say it.

      It’s one thing to call comments from characters such as Ballantyne ‘ignorant’ and ‘appalling’ (as Nicola did yesterday) but it’s quite another business to actually ‘prove’ it.

      So, cheers Cameron, as aye, for making us aware that there are decent people who set out to do just that, and that their efforts can be found and shared.

      Have a braw weekend there my friend.


    120. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cheer Ian. I don’t think I’m over-playing things by suggesting the Tories are taking us into uncharted territory, which includes an historically mythical, culturally nationalistic, narcissistic and chauvinistic, British national identity. This has been fostered through the media ever since Thatcher, an has now risen to a pitch that is impossible to ignore. Anyone living in Scotland who places their trusts in Westminster, is seriously naive, IMHO.

    121. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Cameron –


      There’s still, what, a full fortnight until Remembrance Day?

      We’re gonny get it full-on, 24/7. The ‘poppy’ shite is already out of control.

      As for anyone left in Scotland who has trust in WM? They’re beyond naive, no hope left for them – they’re a lost cause.

    122. CameronB Brodie says:

      @John Rentoul
      ?”No, there are lots of you, who seem to think calling people twats and pricks is a good way to advance the cause of independence”

      You haven’t crossed my sights yet but the likes of Owen Jones definitely deserves the moniker of “prick”. It is a form of belittlement intended to undermining his smug sense of psychological security. It is aimed at stopping him poisoning contemporary social discourse with ideological driven bollocks. It is intended to upturn the status quo of wanky, ineffectual, political commentators. Does that help?

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      The internet doesn’t carry nuance particularly well. Performative speech acts heighten an audience’s awareness of context and meaning.

      Speech Act Theory

    124. CameronB Brodie says:

      Of course, I may badly need a refresher course.

    125. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gender equality is important but will not be achieved by privileging men to enable their colonisation of “woomanhood”.

      How (the Meaning of) Gender Matters in Political Economy

      ….It is more difficult to assess how and to what extent less visibly ‘feminist’ scholars participate in the debate. While we see little evidence that political economy scholars assume the centrality of gender, in the last 10 years we do observe more attention to the category of ‘women’ (for example, in labour markets and social movements) and more references to ‘gender’ in a variety of publications. We also observe the inclusion of ‘gender-thematic’ articles in journal special issues,4 as well as ‘gender’ chapters in edited volumes that are devoted to encompassing topics (e.g. globalisation). In this sense, even scholars who do not self-identify as feminist have increased their awareness of and references to women and/or gender in the context of political economy. This is obviously a welcome development, especially as it is neither an insignificant nor easily won gain.

      It is, however, a surprisingly limited – arguably superficial – engagement from the perspective of feminist claims and achievements. In the past decade feminists have exponentially increased knowledge about women’s and men’s lives and how gender both structures and differentially valorises masculinised and feminised identities, desires, expectations, knowledges, skills, labour, wages, activities and experiences. They have built professional associations, launched feminist journals, published widely, advanced crossdisciplinary scholarship, pioneered theoretical insights and promoted critical and transformative teaching, research and academic activism. In spite of these successes, feminists note continuing resistance to the breadth, depth and specifically theoretical implications of feminist political economy scholarship.5 What explains the vitality, achievements, and sophistication of feminist/gendered political economy and, at the same time, its limited impact on mainstream and even most critical political economy scholars?

      Some, perhaps a great deal, of the resistance is presumably due to individual investments and ideological factors that fuel resistance to feminisms in general.6 However significant these may be, they are difficult to document and relatively unresponsive to critique. What is more productive, and relevant to the ‘state of the debate’, is examining how epistemological differences (among non-feminist as well as feminist scholars) shape one’s understanding of gender and, hence, where one is positioned on the continuum and how one participates in the debate….

      Gender & Sexuality: Critical Theories, Critical Thinkers

      Of Gender and Rationality

    126. Cactus says:

      Morning Brian Doonthetoon 🙂

      Aye aye, just up to me usual mischief, one will return once again to the Ship of Fools as and when the journey dictates.

      Cheers y’all for the last weekend of and to October ’18.

    127. CameronB Brodie says:

      On legislating misogyny as a hate crime. I’d have thought that near impossible to police and subject to widespread abuse. Well intended but unworkable in practice, IMHO.

      Sorry, this will take a couple of posts.

      Hate, Politics, Law: Critical Perspectives on Combating Hate


      What is at stake in the modern combatting of hate in liberal democratic societies? This book takes up the question and offers a critical exploration of the basic assumptions, ideals and agendas behind the fighting of hate, as expressed for example through anti-hate speech and anti-hate crime initiatives. Most research on hate crime, on hatred as such, and on the -isms and -phobias with which it is commonly connected (racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia etc.) are written and published in what might be called a “preventionalist” spirit. That is, such studies are undertaken in order to prevent hate or to strengthen the combating of the harms and crimes with which it is associated.

      This book is different in so far as it insists upon a more theoretically distanced and exploratory approach to the topic of hatred. It asks questions such as: what are the normative presuppositions, the ideological roots, the promises, the limits, and—not least—the blind spots of the modern fighting of hate? When and why did it become necessary or legitimate to fight it? What is the meaning of “hate”? And how does the modern and public use of the term relate to the longer and broader history of the concept? In this book, a group of distinguished scholars explore these questions and offer a range of explanatory and normative perspectives on what is at stake in the awkward relationship between hate and liberal democracy.

      Keywords: hate, hate crime, hate speech, liberal democracy, law, philosophy, political theory, emotion, violence



      Part One: the Emergence of hate crime as a topic for State intervention

      The concept of hate crime and subsequent legislation has not entered the social and legal psyche without debate and criticism. A sample of critiques is given below, arranged thematically. Clearly, hate crime legislation singles out some but not all groups for special protections not afforded to others, although literature has tended to focus upon the concept of hate crime, rather than explaining or critiquing the categories.

      Hurd critiques hate crime legislation on the grounds that if hatred and bias are construed as mens rea elements, then they are alien to traditional criminal law principles.‘1 The often highly subjective nature of interpreting motivation is a particular focus for many critics, and a cause of concern for legislators. Gadd compares the complications caused by this subjectivity to those experienced in many US jurisdictions, which have a longer history of hate crime‘ legislation, where The defendant‘s bias‘ against an outgroup is often taken as sufficient evidence of the animus‘ required to secure a conviction for hate crime‘- an outcome that some socio-legal scholars have deemed socially divisive and unconstitutional. 2 Cornides considers whether it is possible that the awareness-raising‘ aspects of anti-discrimination policies rather than providing a cure bring a new illness to society: generalized hypochondria…‘3

      Understanding Hate Speech

      Summary and Keywords

      Most of the research dealing with hate and hate speech has examined the practices and discourses of hate groups and hate crimes. This work has tended to focus on hate and hate speech directed at African Americans, Jews, and other nonwhites by white supremacist groups. An emerging and growing literature examines hate and hate speech that is used by men to target and harass women. Research in this area has focused on the ways that hate speech produced by organized hate groups and men’s rights activist groups is used to recruit new members, to socialize new members, to radicalize people, and to encourage ethnoviolence. The Internet has had a revolutionizing influence on these groups’ use of hate speech. Additionally, hate novels and “hate music” have played important roles in the recruitment of people into the hate movement and promoted violence against those perceived as enemies of Aryans.

      Keywords: hate, hate speech, hate stratagem, myth, heuristics, manosphere, cyber harassment, white power music, intergroup communication

    128. CameronB Brodie says:

      Examining the Boundaries of Hate Crime Law:
      Disabilities and the Dilemma of Difference

      Although anyone is potentially a victim of crime, some
      groups are particularly susceptible to victimization because of their vulnerability, social marginality, or invisibility. Some-criminals use a victim’s minority group membership as a means of gauging the victim’s level of guardianship and the degree to which society cares about what happens to the victim. They often expect-with good reason-that the criminal justice system will share the view that such victims are unworthy of vigorous enforcement of the law. The stereotypes and biases upon which these views are based are, in turn, residues of historical relations of subordination, inequality, and discrimination, which criminals
      capitalize upon and reinforce. Moreover, like the schoolyard
      bully who preys upon the small, the weak, and the outcast,
      crimes against the disadvantaged are increasingly understood to possess a distinct moral status and evoke particular policy implications.

      The Hate Threshold: Emotion, Causation and
      Difference in the Construction of Prejudice-motivated Crime


      Hate crime laws have emerged within a climate of penal expansion and identity politics. They contain ideological claims designed to reconfigure social norms and regimes of difference. This article employs the concept of the hate threshold to examine the principles and practices that turn an ordinary crime into a hate crime and the normative messages that flow from this. The hate threshold takes three major elements – emotion, causation and difference – as a framework for analysing how the legal rules are operationalised. Analysis of Australian sentencing aggravation law reveals that courts have set a relatively rigorous standard for offender sentiment and causation. However, the development of a more fluid threshold around the element of difference raises questions about the constitutive implications when law ‘misfires’. This analysis of the law in action provides a material foundation for reflecting on the capacity of hate crime law to engage in larger processes of remoralisation.

      Hate crime, hate threshold, politics of difference

      A critical portrait of hate crime/incident reporting in North East England: The value of statistical data and the politics of recording in an age of austerity


      This paper contributes to research on the reporting of hate crime/incidents from a critical socio-spatial perspective. It outlines an analysis of third party reporting of hate crimes/incidents in the North East of England, based upon the work of Arch (a third party hate crime/incident reporting system). The data set is one of the largest of its kind in the UK and therefore presents a unique opportunity to explore patterns of reporting across different types of hate crimes/incidents through a system designed to go beyond criminal justice responses. Whilst not downplaying the significance of the harmful experiences to which this data refers, we are very aware of the limitations of quantitative and de-humanised approaches to understanding forms of discrimination.

      Therefore the paper adopts a critical position, emphasising that interpretation of the data provides a partial, yet important, insight into everyday exclusions, but also cultures and politics of reporting. While the data records incidents across the main ‘monitored strands’, analysis here particularly focuses on those incidents recorded on the basis of ‘race’ and religion. Our analysis allows us to both cautiously consider the value of such data in understanding and addressing such damaging experiences – but also to appreciate how such an analysis may connect with the changing landscape of reporting and the politics of austerity.

      Hate crime/incidents Third party reporting Data collection Politics of recording Austerity

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      Almost done.

      Hate crime and identity politics

      ….Fundamentally, I agree that hate crime and its attendant laws are intimately connected to identity politics. It could not be otherwise, since hate crime is one of many facets of intergroup relations. However, I see bias-motivated violence not as a precursor to greater intergroup tension, but as an indicator of underlying social and cultural tensions. It is, thus, not the laws that are divisive, but the conduct (and its antecedents) to which they refer. The legislation does not create the hostility, for it has long existed. Moreover, it is the ongoing recognition of group membership — insider/outsider or ‘us’ versus ‘them’ — that typically gives rise to hate crime.

      In short, hate crimes are more than the acts of mean-spirited bigots. Such violence is embedded in the structural and cultural context within which groups interact (Bowling, 1993; Kelly et al., 1993; Young, 1990). It does not occur in a social or cultural vacuum, but is a socially situated, dynamic process. It might be seen as one of the five interrelated ‘faces of oppression’ by which Young (1990) characterizes the experiences of minority groups, that is, nested within the complex of exploitation, marginalization, powerlessness, and cultural imperialism. Together, structural exclusions and cultural imaging leave minority members vulnerable to systemic violence, and especially ethno-violence.

      In particular, where the popular image of the ‘Other’ is constructed in negative terms, group members may be victimized on the basis of those perceptions. Hate crime is thus ‘bolstered by belief systems which (attempt to) legitimate such violence’ so as to ‘limit the rights and privileges of individuals/groups and to maintain the superiority of one group’ (Sheffield, 1995: 438–9). Members of subordinate groups are potential victims because of their socially subordinate status. They are already deemed inferior, deviant, and therefore deserving of whatever hostility and persecution comes their way. In sum, they are ‘damned if they do, and damned if they don’t’. If they perform their identities on the basis of what is expected of them, they are vulnerable. If they perform in ways that challenge those expectations, they are equally vulnerable.

      A Practical Guide


    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hope that helps, though it’s a far from complete overview.

      Special issue on online misogyny


      This special issue seeks to identify and theorise the complex relationships between online culture, technology and misogyny. It asks how the internet’s anti-woman spaces and discourses have been transformed by the technological affordances of new digital platforms, and whether they are borne of the same types of discontents articulated in older forms of anti-feminism, or to what extent they might articulate a different constellation of social, cultural and gender-political factors. This collection of work is intended to lend focus and cohesion to a growing body of research in this area; to map, contextualise and take stock of current frameworks, making scholars aware of one another’s work and methodologies, and hopefully forging new interdisciplinary collaborations and directions for future work. Crucially, we move beyond the Anglophone world, to include perspectives from countries which have different gender-political and technological landscapes. In addition to mapping the new misogyny, several contributions also address digital feminist responses, evaluating their successes, limitations and impact on the shape of digital gender politics in future.

      Keywords: Online misogyny, social media, anti-feminism, gender politics, digital feminism

      The symbolic purpose of hate crime law: Ideal victims and emotion

      Human Rights and the Critiques of the Public-Private Distinction

    131. CameronB Brodie says:

      Then there’s the Normative Legal Theory to consider.

      Hate Crime Law and the Limits of Inculpation

      The enactment of hate crime law-law that enhances the punishment of those whose crimes are motivated by legislatively identified animus or bias (“hate motive”)-is widespread in the United States. According to the Anti-Defamation League, almost every state has passed hate crime law in one form or another, whether the hate motive is treated as an element of a criminal offense or as an aggravating factor at sentencing.’ Notwithstanding its overwhelming popularity, hate crime law has always provoked and continues to provoke contentious debate within legal academia. This debate has proceeded mainly along three distinct, though not unrelated, strands of thought.

      The first is the (un)constitutionality of hate crime law because of its effect on free expression. 2 The second is the political or pragmatic wisdom (or foolhardiness) of hate crime law as an instrument for the eradication of prejudicial beliefs and conduct.3 These are the dimensions of the debate that have been most visible, especially in more popular discourse. This Article, while doubtless having some implications for these first two strands, focuses chiefly on the third: the (non)conformity of hate crime law to the theories and doctrines of the criminal law.4

      The enhanced punishment of the hate crime offender is based on several rationales in criminal law theory:5 (i) the greater wrongdoing thesis, which posits that a hate crime harms not only its immediate victim (as all crimes do), but also causes greater injury to the victim’s community and society at large;6 (ii) the expressive theory of punishment, which suggests that the criminal law can and should be used as a tool for expressing society’s commitment to the norm against prejudice;7 (iii) the culpability thesis, which argues that hate crime offenders are more blameworthy than offenders who commit crimes without the hate motive;8 and (iv) the equality thesis, which sees hate crime law as a means of evenly distributing the “state-produced good” of protection against crime. 9 Of these, I take up the culpability thesis because I believe that much of the current debate addressing this topic presents a partial and misleading picture of both criminal culpability in general and the hate motive in particular.

      The Punishment of Hate: Toward a Normative Theory of Bias-Motivated Crimes

      Submission of Evidence to Scottish Government Independent Review of Hate Crime Legislation (Bracadale Review)

    132. CameronB Brodie says:

      A bit more legal theory and then some Normative Social Theory. Me, I just try not to be a misogynist in the first place. Perhaps better skooling of feminist social values at school, rather than attempting to engineer society through the law? I no lawyer though.

      A Comparative Analysis of Hate Crime Legislation: A Report to the Hate Crime Legislation Review

      In January 2017, the Scottish Government announced a review of hate crime legislation, chaired by Lord Bracadale.1 Lord Bracadale requested that, to assist the Review it its task, we produce a comparative report detailing principles underpinning hate crime legislation and approaches taken to hate crime in a range of jurisdictions. Work on this report commenced in late March 2017 and the final report was submitted to the Review in July 2017.

      Sex doesn’t matter? The problematic status of sex, misogyny, and hate

      The intersection of cisgenderism and hate crime: learning from trans people’s narratives

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andre Williams – Pulling Time

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      Lee Perry & The Upsetters – Justice To The People + Verse Two

    135. CameronB Brodie says:

      Silly me, there I am forgetting a Social Legal Studies view.

      The Hate Threshold
      Emotion, Causation and Difference in the Construction of Prejudice-motivated Crime


      Hate crime laws have emerged within a climate of penal expansion and identity politics. They contain ideological claims designed to reconfigure social norms and regimes of difference. This article employs the concept of the hate threshold to examine the principles and practices that turn an ordinary crime into a hate crime and the normative messages that flow from this. The hate threshold takes three major elements – emotion, causation and difference – as a framework for analysing how the legal rules are operationalised. Analysis of Australian sentencing aggravation law reveals that courts have set a relatively rigorous standard for offender sentiment and causation. However, the development of a more fluid threshold around the element of difference raises questions about the constitutive implications when law ‘misfires’. This analysis of the law in action provides a material foundation for reflecting on the capacity of hate crime law to engage in larger processes of remoralisation.

      Keywords Hate crime, hate threshold, politics of difference

      Misogyny as hate crime
      The debate about whether to use a general gender hate crime label or a specific misogyny label is ongoing.

      The Round-Up: A Landmark Ruling for Gay Rights, Misogyny as a Hate Crime, and a Human Right to Divorce?

    136. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, that was twice for the first link there.

      Overwhelming public support for Misogyny Hate Crime Policy

      ….Over 87 per cent of people surveyed thought a policy change two years ago to make misogyny a hate crime in Nottinghamshire, was a good idea.

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, so why might a white, male, economics graduates with an interest in healthcare, buy into gender ideology and deny scientific realism? I reckon he might be a worshiper of neo-liberal ideolgy and free-market economics. As such, he possibly lacks the biological hardware needed to empathise with the threats women face. Oops, did I say that out loud?

      Online misogyny and the alternative right: debating the undebatable


      The aim of this critical intervention is twofold: first, to offer a few insights to the online misogyny debate based on a case-study involving myself and Milo Yiannopoulos, the prominent anti-feminist and self-styled ultra-conservative “bad boy;” second, to add a new, politically pronounced inflection to the meticulous work in the field, by arguing that although misogyny is not exclusively affiliated with a certain political register, its ferocious articulations in contemporary culture—especially online—should be understood as a type of discourse fuelled largely by a set of well-organised far-right, white supremacist determinations collectively camouflaged by the media-friendly term “alternative-right” (hereafter, “alt-right”).

      I contend that far from being a subculture that seeks to articulate a credible anti-establishment position, the alt-right is better understood as a polished, technologically adept strand of the far-right—a strand, what is more, that is easily assimilable by neoliberal socio-economic and political rationality. Much like neoliberalism itself, the alt-right is vehemently opposed to any form of politics or political imaginary that seeks to establish a socialist or socialist-democratic hegemony predicated on class consciousness, collectivism, and egalitarianism.

      Keywords: Online misogyny, alt-right, far-right, neoliberalism, lad culture

      Popular misogyny: a zeitgeist

      Neoliberalism and popular women’s culture: Rethinking choice, freedom and agency

      ‘Choice’, ‘freedom’ and ‘agency’ are terms liberally appropriated in recent years by popular women’s cultural genres to advance an image of the new, empowered woman confidently embracing patriarchal heterosexuality and commodity culture. Critics such as Rosalind Gill have linked this image to the influence of contemporary neoliberalism. This article extends these claims in order to argue that with the rise of this new female subject that reflects the workings of the neoliberal process of subjectification as immanent within and responsive to normative power, a more detailed examination is necessary of the changed meanings of choice and freedom. In the light of this changed form of governance and subjectification, feminist critique of popular women’s culture needs to readjust its terms of engagement.

      Choice, freedom, neoliberalism, popular women’s culture

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. “…selfishness, greed and bling are worshiped and decency, integrity and kindness are mocked”.

      This is the manifest rationality of Anglo-American neo-liberal thought and practice. Square that with good old-fashioned ‘British’ exceptionalism and you have the correct mix of group narcissism and cultural chauvinism, to act as bridge towards acts of national self-harm (see Brexit). Scotland can and must do better.

      The unholy alliance of neoliberalism and postmodernism

      Do the fragmentation of society, exposure to marketing (‘being yourself’), increased existential uncertainty connected to mass unemployment and contract work, further the perverted individualism and commercialization of social relations? Or will these social ills feed into a new European Renaissance?

      The difficulty of ‘neoliberalism’

      In a leader published in December, the Blairite pressure group Progress took aim at a particular word: ‘neoliberalism’. It argued that “lazy use of language covers up intellectual laziness. ‘Neoliberal’ has become a catch-all for anyone with whom you disagree”. The charge was bolstered with the usual nod to George Orwell and the fear that “ugly writing leads to ugly thoughts” (a principle that would scarcely reflect well on the author of A Journey).

      This is not a new critique. ‘Neoliberalism’ is a term that has attracted a remarkable degree of frustration and fury, in politics, the media and within academia. Journalists such as Independent columnist John Rentoul and Newsnight policy editor Christopher Cook have expended some energy on twitter and in print dismissing the term as vacuous. Orthodox economists, who do not encounter the term in their microeconomics training, dismiss it as useless. In academia, ‘neoliberalism’ has been criticised by historians and some social scientists as over-determined….

      Challenging Freedom
      Neoliberalism and the Erosion of Democratic Education


      Goodlad, et al. (2002) rightly point out that a culture can either resist or support change. Schein’s (2010) model of culture indicates observable behaviors of a culture can be explained by exposing underlying shared values and basic assumptions that give meaning to the performance. Yet culture is many-faceted and complex. So Schein advised a clinical approach to cultural analysis that calls for identifying a problem in order to focus the analysis on relevant values and assumptions. This project starts with two assumptions: (1) The erosion of democratic education is a visible overt behavior of the current U.S. macro-culture, and (2) this is a problem. I intend to use this problem of the erosion of democratic education as a basis for a cultural analysis. My essential question is: What are the deeper, collective, competing value commitments and shared basic assumptions that hinder efforts for democratic education? The purpose of this paper is to start a conversation about particular cultural limitations and barriers we are working with as we move toward recapturing the civic mission of education.

    139. Thepnr says:

      Cameron I don’t mean to go on but where are you?

      The real you not these posts that you’re flooding Off Topic with. Come out into the open man be yourself, gies a tune!

    140. Thepnr says:

      Here’s mine and it’s for you Cameron 🙂

    141. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t mean to be stand-offish Alex, it’s just I’ve fill up an awful lot of space. I feel a bit self-conscious of that, as well as knackered. Sorry mate, my mind feels completely empty now. Or at least I’d better not play what I’m thinking of. Wouldn’t want to upset any of the neo-liberal commentariat. 😉

    142. Fred says:

      Thepnr, as the wee boay said, “The Emperor has nae claes!”

    143. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s a wee nugget for Gil Scott Heron fans, an appearance on Soul Train. Dodgy video and not exactly his funkiest tune but still worth a watch if nly to see the flute player who (I assume) played on ‘The Revolution Will Not Be Televised’

      ‘Angel Dust’ –

    144. smithie says:

      Fred says:
      28 October, 2018 at 8:03 am

      Thepnr, as the wee boay said, “The Emperor has nae claes!”
      sorry if this a broken record and if i may>>>>>Get a comment into “Brodies” page?

    145. Michael McCabe says:

      @ smithie 5:34am his name is Cameron. If you don’t like his posts then scroll on by it is the rev who decides if a post is OK or not. Nobody is stopping you from posting. Anyway a big shout out to all the regulars. You know who you are. ? ? ???????

    146. William Wallace says:

      What MM said tbh.

      Seriously now smithie, why do you have any sort of issue with what CamB posts, when he posts it or how often? Why does it even matter?

      This is his wee corner as much as anyone else’s. He is keeping Aff-Topic going during the lull. He is a very peaceable and amicable character who treats everyone kindly and with respect. Please afford him the same courtesy.

      No one stops you posting nor determines the frequency or content of your posts either so please, let CamB “Be”. Cheers.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t want to spoil the social aspect of OT but I think I have valuable knowledge to share. Sorry bud, but how many folk do you know that can handle applied meta-psychology?

      The Body of Evidence. Psychoanalysis and Sex Difference

      A Testimony of Languages

      Historically speaking, it was in reference to the visible and attestable material object that the term témoin (“witness”) first appeared in old French. Referring back to “that which serves as proof”, to the document, in 1165 it designated only secondarily the “person who has seen or heard something and can certify it”.2

      According to the Trésor de la langue française[1] , the current use of the term thus distinguishes the sense of a person or a thing: the témoin is a spectator, silently watching an event, or the “person who certifies or who can certify what he has seen or heard”. In the legal system, the témoin allows the application of the law to proceed, or allows the accuracy and authenticity of identities and declarations to be attested….

      Sex typing and gender ideology: two facets of the individual’s gender psychology that go together.


      Three studies tested the hypothesis that gendered personality dispositions are related to gender attitudes and gender discriminatory behaviors. In Study 1, sex-typed individuals were more likely than androgynous, undifferentiated, and cross-sex-typed individuals to accept gender rules designating culturally appropriate behavior for men and women. In Study 2, sex-typed individuals were particularly likely to pay attention spontaneously to the sex of job applicants and then to devalue the interview performances of women. In Study 3, only sex-typed men tended to endorse sexist language. As expected, sex typing and gender ideology go together. This relation between two facets of the individual’s gender psychology indicates that some sex role inventories may tap more than expressivity and instrumentality.

      Outbreak: On Transgender Teens and Psychic Epidemics


      Having lived through both World Wars, Jung was aware of the dangers of what he termed “psychic epidemics.” He discussed the spontaneous manifestation of an archetype within collective life as indicative of a critical time during which there is a serious risk of a destructive psychic epidemic….

      P.S. Gender ideology refers to our individual sexuality identities. It is the product of social processes that we either accept or modify, to suite and embody our emotional self. Trans-activists appear to simply have a totally screwed-up appreciation of postmodernism and the limits of positivism, thinking that blind belief and institutional support can undo biological reality.

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I don’t mean to add to the prevailing confusion.

      Gender ideology refers to our individual sexuality identities.

      Gender ideology refers to our individual sexual identity.

    149. CameronB Brodie says:

      Steve’n’Seagulls – Self Esteem

    150. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve got a wee bit of favourite philosophy –

      What’s the difference between a duck?
      One of its leg is both the same.

      I mentioned this to my son when he was around 8 and he came back with…

      What’s the difference between the other duck?
      It’s got one leg less too many.

      I think Asperger’s Syndrome runs through our family’s generations…

    151. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I noticed this on the Wings Twitter feed today:

      ” Wings Over Scotland Retweeted
      Mr Malky
      ? @MrMalky
      9h9 hours ago

      Mr Malky Retweeted Scottish Labour

      During the first Scottish Independence referendum
      We found pensioners in tears
      Because Labour canvassers brough up from Liverpool were telling them that if they, or any of their family voted YES, then their pension would stop on 19 September 2014

      How’s that for a cruel lie?”

      I am/was a member of Team YES Bus in Dundee, 2014/2015. At one of our foodbank collection for “Taught By Muhammad” outside Tesco in Murraygate, I had a blether with another member of the team (retired).

      He related how he had been phoned by a VERY prominent member of the Labour Party in Dundee, prior to the 2014 Indyref.

      He told the LP member that he was busy and could he call back in 5 minutes.

      In that 5 minutes, the YES Bus member set up his recording gizmo on the phone and, when he was phoned again by the VERY prominent LP member, recorded the phone call, wherein the LP member told him that his pension would be under threat if Scotland voted for independence.

      I have pleaded with the TYB member to send me his recording so I could pass it on to Rev Stu (edited to remove identifying references) but he’s no’ keen, because of a previous court case.

      The point is… it wasn’t just “incomers” spreading this $h!T, it was our SCOTTISH LP members.

      Check out,

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one with a friend of mine in mind (he might be reading – waves), who thought it offensive when I suggested Confucianism had influenced Zen Buddhism. Anyway, my religiosity quotient remains in the range of zero to negligible, so I’m not stepping out of character. Still, makes you think, eh?

      Realize You are the Earth – Thich Nhat Hanh

      “We need a real awakening, enlightenment, to change our way of thinking and seeing things. To breathe in and be aware of your body and look deeply into it, realise you are the Earth and your consciousness is also the consciousness of the Earth.” ~Thich Nhat Hanh

      Dharma and the Tao: how Buddhism and Daoism have influenced each other; Why Zen and Taoism can be complementary

      Going with the Flow – Taoist and Zen Approaches

      @Church of Scotland
      What’s your position on all of this? Still supporting British nationalism? Are you a bunch of Tories?

    153. CameronB Brodie says:

      @John Mackay MP
      ?Looks like you’re a bit of an arrogant tit yourself, calling folk out for not understanding racism, while displaying an outdated and unhelpful understanding of racism yourself. Do you really think “race” is anything other than a sociological definition? Have you not heard of cultural nationalism and cultural racism?

      English/British cultural nationalism denies Scottish opinion and obliterates the agency of the Scottish electorate (see Brexit). As such, English/British nationalism articulates cultural chauvinism and replaces democratic mandate with old-skool, colonial, imperialism. Thats rascism John but not as you know it.

      Racism, Narcissism, and Integrity

      Recently there has been much literature pertaining to the psychodynamics of narcissism and its relation to psychopathological and normal psychic functions. While these models of the mind are primarily aimed at understanding individual behavior in the therapeutic relationship, they are also useful in clarifying one’s thinking about racism, which can be approached both from an individual and social viewpoint. The author demonstrates that the racist individual suffers from a defect in narcissistic personality development, which precludes the
      subsequent development of such qualities as creativity, empathy, and integrity.

      Culture, Prejudice, Racism, and Discrimination

      Summary and Keywords

      Prejudice is a broad social phenomenon and area of research, complicated by the fact that intolerance exists in internal cognitions but is manifest in symbol usage (verbal, nonverbal, mediated), law and policy, and social and organizational practice. It is based on group identification (i.e., perceiving and treating a person or people in terms of outgroup membership); but that outgroup can range from the more commonly known outgroups based on race, sex/gender, nationality, or sexual orientation to more specific intolerances of others based on political party, fan status, or membership in some perceived group such as “blonde” or “athlete.” This article begins with the link of culture to prejudice, noting specific culture-based prejudices of ethnocentrism and xenophobia. It then explores the levels at which prejudice might be manifest, finally arriving at a specific focus of prejudice—racism; however, what applies to racism may also apply to other intolerances such as sexism, heterosexism, classism, or ageism.

      The discussion and analysis of prejudice becomes complicated when we approach a specific topic like racism, though the tensions surrounding this phenomenon extend to other intolerances such as sexism or heterosexism. Complications include determining the influences that might lead to individual racism or an atmosphere of racism, but also include the very definition of what racism is: Is it an individual phenomenon, or does it refer to an intolerance that is supported by a dominant social structure? Because overt intolerance has become unpopular in many societies, researchers have explored how racism and sexism might be expressed in subtle terms; others investigate how racism intersects with other forms of oppression, including those based on sex/gender, sexual orientation, or colonialism; and still others consider how one might express intolerance “benevolently,” with good intentions though still based on problematic racist or sexist ideologies.

      Keywords: culture, racism, discrimination, prejudice, intolerance, sexism, heterosexism, stereotypes, ethnocentrism, xenophobi

      Institutional Racism, Power and Accountability


      In this article, I will focus on institutional racism and discuss the problems with the idea of ‘unwitting racism’ found in the report. I will argue that there are a number of conceptual confusions in the report. It is necessary to disassociate the unintentional effects of procedures, from procedures that relate to the exercise of judgements and agency. The pervasiveness of institutional power makes accountability one of the most vital issues raised by the report, which links to the issue of power. In addition, the article argues that it is important to look at the gendered nature of racims and particularly at the role of masculinity.

    154. Thepnr says:

      I never knew until tonight that there was a new film out about the life of Freddie Mercury until my son phoned and told me he was going with his girlfriend to see the Freddie mercury picture.

      By all accounts it meant to be pretty good so might even get along myself to see it.

      That’s one man for me that rightly deserves the accolade of “superstar”.

      I’m sure we all have our own favourite Queen songs but this is the first I remember hearing. Who can believe that it is now 44 years old? Still sounds amazing even today. Class act and best performer on stage I’ve ever seen was Freddie.

    155. Thepnr says:

      So I’ve been watching a few Queen videos now and am amazed at Freddie Mercury’s genius. Here’s another 3 minute clip that is simply brilliant performing.

    156. Thepnr says:

      There’s hope for all us old fuckers yet!

      This lady who I have always thought as brilliant is giving it laldy at 72 years old, she looks 40 years younger. Love it.

    157. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      RE: Queen. This was the first one I heard. Still have the single…

      BTW: did you know that, before Queen, Freddie performed under the name “Larry Lurex”?

    158. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      Here’s another “Larry Lurex” single.

      It seems Dusty Springfield had the first hit with that song but I just don’t recall it from the time. I know it from the Goldie version, which is on an “Immediate” compilation CD I bought a few years ago.

      More info here:-

    159. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Haha Larry Lurex, I remember the name. I think you were way ahead of most when it came to records.

    160. Macart says:


      Been busy elsewhere for the past few weeks with only the occasional look in. Jings, the MT is getting a bit heated though.

      Seems the look over here, not over there strategy of Labour and their chooms has left its mark.

    161. Tinto Chiel says:

      Since it’s Hallowe’en:

      Rather dark and unsettling…

    162. Cactus says:

      Note of da bene.

      There is something here on Wings for everybuddy y’all…

      As ye always were people..


    163. Macart says:

      Just catching up on some reading on all this nonsense over on GB and it is nonsense.

      Spidey sense was right first time. Look over here, not over there.

    164. Thepnr says:


      Yes all of this mince is very disappointing and it does get to you.

      Know what though I very much doubt either you, I or along with all of us that have been here for the past few years will be chucking the towel in anytime soon.

      Tomorrows another day and we just need to get through each one as it comes and hope we have made a little progress. That’s all it needs one baby step at a time.

    165. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      As usual I didn’t have the time to watch both the Larry Lurex videos this afternoon. Done so now and can see clearly that Freddie Mercury was a genius even as a very young man.

      So cheers for the reminders, it’s easy to forget.

    166. Thepnr says:

      All that is required for Scotland to become Independent is that enough of us believe it can be. Nothing else.

    167. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah well, reasonably appropriate, it’s when I got into Queen via a flatmate first permanent job, and still one of my favourites. Pushed by one single DJ, forget who now.

    168. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s another, Queen live at the Rainbow, was there just the once to see YES. Kind of made me wish I’d not done classical piano 🙂

      Yeah, few things get to me these days, sometimes I fake it a bit for effect. But last night with that Grouse thing really got to me, over it now. They exposed his real name, and so his family, utter [censored]. Not just a winger, but a Ciffer.

      Journalists like that are the pits. And should be cast into one, full of the sewage they come out with.

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      Strange where you get to after an hour clicking one on the right, then another one on that, but if this don’t get you feet tapping I don’t know what will.

      In fact, just get up and dance, neve mind the neebors! Or the cat.

    170. Cactus says:

      A top of the marnin to ye all Wingers, ahm sitting in departures at Glasgow International Airport. Heading off to the North Pole for a long weekend. Outbound flight is 48hrs. 😉

      Ah’ll be back with a European burp abroad…

      See ye later Scotland X.

    171. The Milngavie Fox says:

      I saw Queen at the Apollo supporting Mott the Hoople about 73 or 74 and they were “f-ing” good even then.(Not bad for my fisrt concert though)

    172. Tinto Chiel says:

      RIP Freddie: the four-octave voice.

      God Nogbad if you want it…..

    173. Cactus says:

      And a very good marnin to ye The Milngavie Fox…

      An ah bet ye the band were fuckin’ cool!

      Be the dude, dude..


      Tonight, we are composing creations…

      On the guitars+.

    174. Tinto Chiel says:

      “God” should be “got”.

      That’s a mystery…..

      Don’t get frostbite, Cactus and watch out for geysers.

    175. Michael McCabe says:

      This is the first song I heard Queen play. I have been a fan since then.

    176. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      In case you didn’t know…

      Brian May’s guitar was home-made.

    177. cearc says:


      I hope you went easy on the Toblerone last night.
      Have fun.

    178. Sarah says:

      @IB 25.10.18 at 11.16 – more than likely, I’d say!

    179. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Keeping with Brian May’s home-made guitar…

      This video came up in my YouTube search for the video I was looking for, for my main page comment, a few minutes ago.

      Note Brian May is still playing the home-made guitar. But look at the lineup of the band on stage…

    180. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hi Sarah –

      I had to scroll back – way back! – to remind myself of what we were talking about.

      It’s all true!


    181. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And keeping with the Russ Ballard (Argent) theme.

      He wrote this song in 1976.

      It wasn’t a hit but Clout (South African band – their only UK hit was “Substitute”) did a version of it also. Their lead vocalist has a brilliant voice.

      Then Rainbow did a version of it and that became the hit that those of a certain age remember.

      My wee Friday night musical lecture is now at an end so go to the pub and put whatever version on the jukebox.


    182. Sarah says:

      @IB at 10.29. Sorry for long delay in response – events, dear boy, events…!

    183. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Two Scottish songs to enjoy when you come in from the pub…

      And a wee bit of comedy from “Absolutely”…

    184. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Keeping to the comedy theme…

      From “A Kick Up The 80s”:-

      From “Naked Video”:-

      And another from “Absolutely”:-

    185. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Two final comedy links…

      Here are all the “Kevin Turvey Investigates” pieces from “A Kick Up The 80s”, compiled into one video.

      And this link is Series 1 Episode 1 of “Absolutely”:-

    186. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Cactus –

      Hey brother, you’re probably just getting ready to go out to do your walkabout/noctambulist thing, so this one’s for you!

      Gil Scott-Heron, ‘Hello Sunday, Hello Road’

      🙂 🙂 😉

    187. Cactus says:

      Howdes, ah didnae come across any geysers but did indulge in the Toby and tasty fondue. Going for more walkabout tomorrow (today) and to spread the good word… aye brought me Yes saltire flag with me.

      The excellent infrastructure here is quite an aye-opener, the kind of infrastructure that Scotland should have had by now, if only free from this damaging UK setup.

      Coming HOME soon to the best country in this world. 🙂

    188. Cactus says:

      Hey Ian B, the place ahm at is rather rural (which makes a pleasant change) so no nearby nightlife, although there is a bowling alley. Heading into Luzern ra day to an Irish bar with live music near the river.

      Yer right though… bridges, roads, railways, we could have it all.

      Am drinking a local beer called 1862, a Baarer Beir.

      Naturally the sum of this variety is 17. 😉

    189. Cactus says:

      It’s SO refreshing to go to a supermarket, to not be met with every other item branded with that nasty UK flag. Excellent choice and quality too.

      The people are very passionate about their country too and many proudly fly their HOME flags from their gardens.

      Wishin’ yee’s all well belle’s and bro’s x.

    190. yesindyref2 says:

      Best version of this I think was Hamish Imlach, quiet and stark, but this’ll have to do.

      And that’s enough about that. Fuck ’em.

    191. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2.

      “When I was asked to create this presentation for a Remembrance Day assembly, I didn’t know how I would show an “anti-war” song at an event that is supposed to honour our veterans.
      At the same time, war and military conflict was such a distant concept for our students, I wanted to some how make history relevant to them, let alone an “Australian” song that most of the our middle school students have never heard.

      The more I listened to Bogle’s words, the more I realized that this song was about more than a moment in history. It’s about how history repeats itself and the great sacrifices that are made during war and how futile it all is if we fail to learn from our mistakes.”

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, that’s a better version (as you’d expect I guess), but I’d stick with the Imlach one. I even sang it once when some were back at my place when I was single, maybe the only one I knew all the words to. Not something you want to do too often, I think the next tune by someone else was poisoning pigeons in the park 🙂

    193. CameronB Brodie says:

      First off, I just wanted to appologise if I outed that young BLiS___d supporter, the other day. I hope my account of our discussion won’t cause him any future difficulties.

      re. Remembrance Day and all things considered patriotic and moral. Sorry peeps but I’m back to do my worst, with an excess of moral philosophising and critical social theorising.

      The basic building block of social theory is practical inference, the logical relation we consciously refer to for understanding, explaining, and predicting human action. Aristotle introduced practical inference as a way of linking the good or desirable to the action that was good, right. means to some end was rationally chosen or not, or how strong, how demanding a criterion of rationality it satisfied. Significantly, Anscombe (Anscombe, 1957) regards calculation as an integral element of practical reasoning. It would help clarify further thought if “choosing” an alternative were distinguished from the mere “taking” of it—a distinction that depends on the element of calculation and that revealed preference and empiricism do not find congenial.

      Compared with practical inference, which can yield causal theories, even amply confirmed hypotheses of correlations, interdependencies, implicit functions lack ambition. They amount to potential evidence that can underpin social theory, but they do not constitute social theory. In this sense, the narrowly positivist tradition that is reflected in much of macroeconomics and macroeconometrics, and in structuralist and functionalist sociology, is a negation of such theory. Its self-righteous refusal to “look inside people’s heads” and to see human choices as the calculated fitting of means to ends allows it to produce a range of things from forecasting models to mere strings of words, but precludes it from providing explanations.

      Unlike the physical sciences, inference presupposing purposiveness is proper to the study of reasoning beings and cannot be avoided without inordinate loss of content. – Anthony de Jasay

      Against Politics: On Government, Anarchy, and Order, by Anthony de Jasay

      This is a wonderful collection of previously published articles by Anthony de Jasay who, it turns out, is an undiscovered Austrian, or at least a close cousin. The essays in Against Politics, published between 1989 and 1996, are united around a common theme, the economic and political aspects of government and “ordered anarchy.” The book is full of sparkling insight and penetrating, calm dissections of pro-state arguments. Opponents of the state will find much ammunition here. Statists (even of the minimalist variety) will find much to ponder….

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      Explaining Social Behavior: More Nuts and Bolts for the Social Sciences

      Explaining Social Behavior offers a highly readable and highly opinionated introduction to Jon Elster’s theory of social scientific explanation. This book is expansive, offering not only a general theory of scientific explanation, but also a theory of mind, a theory of social norms, a theory of textual interpretation, and even a theory of viable political constitutions. Given this breadth, such a book could easily suffer as a result of its own expansiveness; however, because Elster approaches his subject with clarity and precision—eschewing both the obscurantism of cultural theory and the jargon-ridden language of contemporary quantitative social science—a clear model for explaining social behavior emerges….

      ….What Is It to ‘‘Believe’’ Something? To understand the role of beliefs in generating action, we have to understand their nature, their causes, and their consequences….In philosophical analyses, knowledge is usually defined as justified true belief, a belief that stands in a particular relation both to the world (it is true) and to the body of evidence the agent possesses (it is justified). Yet neither of these features of knowledge captures the subjective certainty that often underlies the phrase ‘‘I know’’ in ordinary discourse. This certainty is not simply the limit of 97% probability, 98%, 99%, 99.9%, and so forth. It is qualitatively different from anything short of certainty.2

      Four Cognitive Attitudes

      Even setting aside these problems, the idea of belief remains ambiguous. We may distinguish among four cognitive attitudes to the world, with decreasing strength. First is the mode of certainty. Second is the mode of risk, in which agents assign probabilities, whether based on past frequencies or their own judgment, to each of a set of mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive outcomes. Third is the mode of uncertainty, in which people know the set of mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive outcomes but find themselves unable to attach any (cardinal) probabilities to them.3 Finally is the mode of ignorance, in which both the range of possible outcomes and their probability of occurrence are unknown or incompletely known. In the memorable words of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, we are facing not only known and unknown quantities, but also ‘‘unknown unknowns.’’4

      I focus on certainty and risk, not because these are always the appropriate cognitive attitudes, but because they are the most common ones. Even when people have no grounds for having any belief on a given topic, they often feel irresistibly compelled to form an opinion – not a specific opinion (as in wishful thinking), but some opinion or other. This propensity is to some extent determined by cultural factors. Albert Hirschman has said that most Latin American cultures ‘‘place considerable value on having strong opinions on virtually everything from the outset.’’ In such societies, to admit ignorance is to admit defeat. But the tendency is really universal. Montaigne said that ‘‘many of this world’s abuses are engendered – or to put it more rashly, all of this world’s abuses are engendered – by our being schooled to be afraid to admit our ignorance and because we are required to accept anything which we cannot refute.’’ The intolerance of uncertainty and ignorance flows not only from pridefulness, but from a universal human desire to find meanings and patterns everywhere. The mind abhors a vacuum.

      ….A particular version of the tendency to find meaning in the universe is to impute agency to events that might as plausibly or more plausibly be due to chance….This conspiratorial or paranoid cast of mind is largely immune to refutation, since believers in a conspiracy theory will find it confirmed by lack of evidence or even by contrary evidence, which they interpret as signs of the devilishly clever nature of the conspirators.

      These error-generating mechanisms rely in one way or another on motivation. Yet error can also arise from ignorance.

      Magic Thinking

      Consider next various forms of magical thinking, that is, the tendency to believe one can exercise a causal influence on outcomes that are actually outside one’s control….Also, people may fail to grasp the distinction between causal and diagnostic relevance.

      Calvinism offers an example of this kind of magical thinking (Chapter3). Given the Calvinist belief in predestination, there would seem to be no reason for a Calvinist not to indulge in all sorts of worldly pleasures, which by assumption cannot affect their fate after death. Max Weber claimed that Calvinism nevertheless made its followers adopt an ascetic lifestyle, not to gain salvation but to acquire the subjective certainty of being among the elect. We may read him as saying that the Calvinists confused the causal and diagnostic relevance of their behavior. This is made quite explicit in a letter circulated by English Baptists in 1770: ‘‘Every soul that comes to Christ to be saved…is to be encouraged…. The coming soul need not fear that he is not elected, for none but such would be willing to come.’’ If God has chosen me to be among the elect, he will also cause me to will certain kinds of behavior.

      ….Consider next various forms of magical thinking, that is, the tendency to believe one can exercise a causal influence on outcomes that are actually outside one’s control….Also, people may fail to grasp the distinction between causal and diagnostic relevance.

      Calvinism offers an example of this kind of magical thinking (Chapter3). Given the Calvinist belief in predestination, there would seem to be no reason for a Calvinist not to indulge in all sorts of worldly pleasures, which by assumption cannot affect their fate after death. Max Weber claimed that Calvinism nevertheless made its followers adopt an ascetic lifestyle, not to gain salvation but to acquire the subjective certainty of being among the elect. We may read him as saying that the Calvinists confused the causal and diagnostic relevance of their behavior. This is made quite explicit in a letter circulated by English Baptists in 1770: ‘‘Every soul that comes to Christ to be saved … is to be encouraged…. The coming soul need not fear that he is not elected, for none but such would be willing to come.’’ If God has chosen me to be among the elect, he will also cause me to will certain kinds of behavior.

      These errors (and many others that have been extensively documented) are for the most part ‘‘cold’’ or unmotivated mistakes, similar in some respects to optical illusions. Other errors, or ‘‘hot’’ mistakes, arise because the beliefs of the agents are motivated, that is, unduly influenced by their desires. As we shall see in Chapter 11, a causal influence of desires on beliefs is not intrinsically irrational….

      ……..The question is whether this ‘‘decision to believe’’ is a rational project. In one sense it is not: I cannot decide to believe at will the way I can decide to raise my arm at will. One might, however, use an indirect strategy. By acting as if one believed, Pascal argued, one will end up believing. The mechanism by which this might happen is, however, somewhat unfathomable.11

      ….To navigate in life, it is instrumentally useful to have accurate beliefs. At the same time, beliefs may be intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant, that is, cause positive or negative emotions….

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      The problem facing the Church of Scotland, as I see it, is whether to act as agents of moral conduct of as agents of cultural oppression. Do they continue to support British nationalism, over the embodied nature of Scotland’s popular sovereignty? What cultural significance do they think they will maintain in a future that is determined by increasingly far-right, English cultural nationalism?

      Morality and Self-Interest


      The relationship between morality and self-interest is a perennial one in philosophy, at the center of moral theory. It goes back to Plato’s Republic, which debated whether living morally was in a person’s best interest. Hobbes also claimed that morality was not in the best interests of the individual; Kant, however, thought that morality ought to be followed anyway even if it was not in a person’s interest. Aristotle, Hume, Machiavelli, and Nietzsche all had much to say on the subject, and contemporary philosophers like Thomas Nagel and David Gauthier discuss it a good deal as well.

      This book presents a number of chapters on this subject. The book provides an introduction to the topic and its place in philosophical history in the introduction. The volume is then divided into three sections. The first lays out the two sides of the debate; the second covers views on morality as external to the self and thus not in our self-interest; and the third focuses on morality as intrinsic to the self and thus in our self-interest. Contributions include newly published work by Thomas Nagel, Julia Annas, Samuel Scheffler, David Schmidtz, and Terence Irwin, among others, as well as a previously published piece by W. D. Falk.

      Keywords: morality, self-interest, Plato, the Republic, Hobbes, Kant, Aristotle, Hume, Machiavelli, Nietzsche

      A. Morality on the Defensive

      1. The Trouble with Justice

      The trouble with justice can be stated simply: it seems that sometimes we do not have reason to be just, specifically reasons of the right kind. It’s obvious that we sometimes are not motivated to act justly, but my concern in this essay is with (normative) reasons for action, not (nonnormative) motives. The problem is also not, as we shall see, what Hobbes’s Foole said, that “there is no such thing as Justice”.4 The Foole is often interpreted as a moral skeptic, and the difficulty that concerns me is different from that posed by this textbook adversary of moral philosophers. The moral skeptic seems to deny that morality is what it is said to be; rather, it is “merely a chimerical [i]dea without truth . . . [a] mere phantom of the brain . . . ”.5

      ….The trouble with justice, however, is not that the virtue, like Harry, is dead. Rather, it is that sometimes we do not seem to have reasons to be just or, as we shall see, reasons of the right kind….

      2. Source of the Trouble

      It is easy to think that undue attention to the interests of the self—egoism—is the source of the trouble here, but that is a mistake. Selfishness and other vices of self-interestedness may not be uncommon. But they are not essential to the problem. Thinkers like Hobbes, who thought that humans are rather selfish, formulate the skeptical worry about justice in terms of the interests of the self. But self-interested-ness is only an extreme form of partiality, and it is partiality that is the source of the problem. Whenever justice asks us to benefit another, someone with whose interests we are not sufficiently concerned, the question may arise as to why we should do as required. The interests of friends and countrymen may appeal to us more.

      3. Why Justice?

      We need justice in order to live well. But the particular kinds of situations that give rise to the need for justice also create the problems with justice….. J. S. Mill famously argues that “justice is a name for certain moral requirements, which, regarded collectively, stand higher in the scale of social utility, and are therefore of more paramount obligation, than any others; though particular cases may occur in which some other social duty is so important, as to overrule any one of the general maxims of justice”.18 Mill argues that we redescribe exceptions so as to avoid asserting that “there can be laudable injustice,” but that is exactly what consequentialists are committed to.

      B. Morality on the Offensive

      IV. A Rule of Recognition for Morals

      Hart’s legal theory distinguishes between primary and secondary legal rules (1961, 89–93). Primary rules comprise what we normally think of as the law. They define our legal rights and obligations. We use secondary rules, especially rules of recognition, to determine what the law is.18

      ….A moral theory consists of a recognition rule applied to a particular subject matter. Given a subject matter, a rule of recognition for morals specifies grounds for regarding items of that kind as moral. By “grounds” I do not mean necessary and sufficient conditions. In act-utilitarianism, the principle of utility presents itself as necessary and sufficient for an act’s morality, but trying to contrive necessary and sufficient conditions is not the only way (and I think not the best way) to do moral theory. To have a recognition rule, all we need is what I call a supporting condition. A supporting condition is a qualified sufficient condition, qualified in the sense of being a sufficient basis for endorsement in the absence of countervailing condi-tions. Formulating recognition rules in terms of supporting conditions rather than attempting to specify necessary and sufficient conditions is one way of acknowledging intuitionist claims that we could never fully articulate all of the considerations relevant to moral judgment. We can allow for that possibility (without letting it stop us from doing moral theory) by formulating recognition rules in terms of supporting conditions—conditions that suffice to shift the burden of proof without claiming to rule out the possibility of the burden being shifted back again, perhaps by considerations we have yet to articulate….

      ….There is nothing in the nature of morality to indicate that we should aim to answer all questions with a single recognition rule, because there is nothing in the nature of recognition rules to suggest there cannot be more than one. Modern ethical inquiry is often interpreted (maybe less often today than a few years ago) as a search for a single-stranded theory—a single rule of recognition applied to a single subject matter, usually the subject of what moral agents ought to do. Maybe Kant and Mill intended to promulgate single-stranded theories; friends and foes alike often take them to have done so. In any case, when interpreted in that way, their theories can capture no more than a fragment of the truth. The truth is: morality is more than one thing. A theory will not give us an accurate picture of morality unless it reflects the fact that morality has more than one strand. Accordingly, I would not try to derive all of morality from a single recognition rule.

    196. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for that wall of thought. It’s a pitty Phil Spector was such a creep. Here’s some popcorn, instead.

      Sugar Pie De Santo – Go Go Power

    197. Chick McGregor says:

      My daily routine of doing the crossword and number grid in the National keeps the old grey cells ticking over and, hopefully, is helping to forestall senility (evidence, please).

      I also have undertaken a dietary overhaul which now includes daily papaya seeds, chia and oat bran which, again hopefully, is working wonders on my digestive tract and cardio-vascular system. (In truth my energy levels have improved).

      We got two cavalier pups which require walking 5 times a day and I also carry out a regime of neck and shoulder exercises to retain some flexibility.

      Hopefully, those efforts to not go gently into that good night bear fruit. (Oh BTW I forgot the guanabana juice).

      But my latest response to received wisdom was to invest in an XBOX One X. (Seemingly ‘gaming’ works wonders on the coordination and response time of the elderly). It came bundled with the two ‘games of the year’ and there is a Scottish connection to both.

      One is ‘Red Dead Redemption II’ and the other is ‘Horizon Forza 4’.

      The first is by Rockstar North which is a Scottish company which started life as DMA Design in Dundee but is now headquartered in Edinburgh.

      The second. while based in England, specialises in vehicle gaming and the surprising thing is that this latest ‘blockbuster’ game has Edinburgh as its main urban area.

      Well perhaps not so surprising when you consider the number of ex-Rockstar talents which have been lured (or lucred?) South, perhaps most notably Will Kennedy of GTA fame.

      Anyhoo, I was delighted to be driving around my capital city. O.K. it is minus its environs and many iconic buildings (Scottish Parliament, Holyrood Palace, Museum of Scotland, MacLaren Hall, Usher Hall etc.) but the bits that are there are recognisably Edinburgh. Great.

      It has also been well received around the World by reviewers on Youtube who, on the whole, seem delighted with how interesting Edinburgh is in its architecture and quirky layout.

      I have however only watched 1 English reviewer’s video and I don’t think he used the word Scotland once. A lot of his review was spent in the small pseudo map area that was the far North of England. His 20 seconds or so, devoted to Edinburgh, he spent knocking down lampposts and commenting that the buildings looked like some other American game and finished with some remark about how he hoped the council wasn’t too upset with him knocking down the lamposts.

    198. yesindyref2 says:

      This has got to be the bestest thing on youtube

      I can’t stop, sob

      Help me (Rona)!

    199. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was saving this for Murdo of the Queen’s eleven, but I think David Leask has just junmped the shark. If the man wants to support racialised right-wing populism (see Brexit), why revert to sneek attacks on those who oppose it. Why does he not come out and state he is a right-winger who’s politics are based on a very particular and narrow social view, ego-driven cultural predjudice and biggotry. State he supports the full English Brexit, in opposition to the vote of the Scottish electorate.

      Willie Dixon – Weak Brain, Narrow Mind

    200. Tinto Chiel says:

      Smallaxe and I are so excited by Harry and Meghan’s news that we are busy knitting a variety of non-gender specific matinee jackets, bootees, hats and shawls against the Great Day.

      Could I ask you drone up or down any spare white wool, size 4 needles or still-functioning crochet hooks to: “Tinto Towers, 666 Bessie Braddock Corniche, Auld Cadzow, Darkest Lanarkshire”?.

      And oblige TC.

    201. Ian Foulds says:

      Michelin and similar closures

      If we have the Labour, Managerial, Marketing/Sales, Technical skills and Plant, why can we not, as a potentially entrepenuerial Country, set up our own businesses/industries?

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      The question is, how long can we keep it there?

    203. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Still hingin’ in there…

    204. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I bought Dundee Waterstones last copy of Billy Kay’s “The Scottish World” on Monday.

      Found this in the chapter covering France: another take on “Hey Tuttie Tatie” – The Rob Roy Overture by Berlioz.

    205. Tinto Chiel says:

      She can sing:

      Neil Young has visions.

    206. Tinto Chiel says:

      BDTT: just saw your 11.32.

      Enjoyed it, positively McCunnish (LOTMATF) but some of the comments rather dismissive.

      Och well, it’s got something to do with Scotland, so……

    207. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve just watched this again; my eyes still become irritated when the bagpipes come in at 1m 04s.

    208. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And then again at 3m 41s…

    209. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Typing as I’m in a music groove…

      Around 1977/78 a band called ‘Krazy Kat’ was booked to play at the Bowlin’ Alley. As usual, in advance, I toddled down to Chalmers & Joy to see what they had by the band. I found an LP called “China Seas” which had a track called “Dundee Calling” contained thereon. My curiosity was piqued.

      They were a fine band – they actually allowed me to record their performance to my reel-to-reel from their mixing desk.

      Onnyhoo, too much a-Googling has turned up no connection between the band and Dundee. KK was a evolution from Tony Rivers & The Castaways, Harmony Grass, Christie and Capability Brown. Tony Ferguson was the name that kept turning up. Essex seemed to be the location of formation.

      How did the band know about Dundee’s whaling tradition? Did another Google search today but still no connection between the band and Dundee shows up.

      So, keeping on a whaling theme, here is “Dundee Calling” followed by another whaling song, “Nantucket Sleighride”, by Quartz. Wingers of a certain age will probably remember its intro as “Weekend World’s” signature tune.

      A ‘Nantucket Sleighride’ was what happened when a whaler from Nantucket harpooned a whale, which then pulled the boat across the ocean until its strength was spent.

      In order,

      “Dundee Calling”:-

      “Nantucket Sleighride”:-

    210. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      This came up as the next video after Quartz. Try to keep in focus…

    211. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Then this one came on before I closed the tab…

    212. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      While I’m here…

      Can I make a suggestion?

      We could keep ‘off-topic’ for music and general ‘banter’ (like in the olden days) and if anyone has SERIOUS stuff to post, use ‘Quarantine’ for that, posting a LINK in ‘off-topic’ to the serious stuff?

      Like this:-

      (Hi CBB!)

    213. Tinto Chiel says:

      But there’s no-one here, Brian, to banter with.

      MacCunnish, I meant, like this:

    214. Chick McGregor says:

      Sarah et al.

      Looks like the Kirrie experiment has born fruit judging by the DIY section in the National. Analysis from the 20,000 hand out and repeat exercises in Kirkcaldy and Oban suggest similar exercises could add thousands to the National’s circulation.

      There is a plan to have a weekly exercise.

      Also, they seem to have taken on board the need to do this by area to ensure they can stock local shops with enough papers so no new buyers are disappointed and, likely, non returners.

      All activists here should make sure their local groups are aware of this and get on the schedule.

    215. Fred says:

      @ Tinto, MacCunn superb this very fine morning. Needs a glass of Laphraoig to appreciate it properly!

    216. Sarah says:

      @ Chick 10.22
      That is great news. My group has been invited to join the scheme of bulk delivery but is a bit tricky as we are thinly populated over a very wide area. But we are working on it!

    217. Tinto Chiel says:

      Must confess, Fred, that I am too much of a peasant to appreciate Laphroaig: a malt too far imho.

      Think I’ll follow Chick’s New Age diet with my usual regime of spring water and bending exercises with occasional quinoa burger.

      The cymbalist certainly earns her/his corn in LOTMATF.

    218. Chick McGregor says:


      Great stuff. I would imagine take up of the digital version would be greater in thinly populated areas due to lack of nearby outlets.

    219. Fred says:

      @ Tinto, ah draw the line at Ardbeg & Octomore is way off the PEATED scale altogether. Shudders!

    220. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Chiel.

      Thanks for the ‘Hamish Maccunn: Land of the Mountain & the Flood Overture’. Must confess I had never heard of him!

      RE: whisky. To me, Laphraoig tastes/smells like stuff you would pour down your bogpan to clear a blockage. Jura and Highland Park are my favourite malts. However, around a year ago, Tesco was doing a litre of Bells for £14. I hadn’t tasted Bells in living memory but it seemed to be in every hovelhold at Hogmanay, when I was a bairn. So I thought I would try it. (50/50 Bells & lemonade or Iron Brew [Lidl’s]). Was pleasantly surprised. It has just a hint of peatiness that isn’t overdone.

      Lastly, I have just downloaded ‘Outlaw King’ to watch tonight. You’ll find it at the link below. I clicked on ‘Server VidCloud’ then downloaded it using the ‘Flash Video Downloader 16.2.7’ add-on for Firefox. 720 quality.

    221. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Fred: strangely, I was about to describe Laphroaig as Ardbeg with all the smoothness and body taken out of it. Chacun a son gout, non? I was given a bottle of Ardbeg one Christmas and, when I opened it, Mrs Tinto called from the kitchen, “Is something burning?” hee! hee!

      My Dear Old Dad opined there were no bad whiskies, you just had to persevere 😛 Mind you, he drew the line at Red Hackle.

      @BDTT: you’re very welcome. My first exposure to MacCunn was as the title music to “Sutherland’s Law”. I think LOTMATF is a favourite of Ian B. I like your whisky choices masel but lately have been drawn to Talisker and my habitual dram in extremis, Aberlour.

      Of course, afterwards I thrash myself with spring water and organic pinhead oats.

    222. Fred says:

      @ Tinto, sadly Charlie Hepburn’s “Red Hackle!” is no longer in production, a bit of a character like his whisky, he was known as Cherlie Hertburn to the cognoscenti!

    223. Sarah says:

      @ Chick 11.12

      Good thinking about digital being more useful in areas with no shop! It never occurred to me – doh.

    224. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Cherlie Hertburn”: razz

      This didn’t used to be available on YouTube but I think this track is from a great album of Burns songs. Probably Burns’ last poem/song, written when ill and bed-ridden in Dumfries. Very exposed a capella but I think RP does amazingly well:

      Silver Tassie is also sung beautifully, but to a more unusual air.

    225. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’m 22 minutes into ‘Outlaw King’, that I saved this afternoon.

      I’ve paused to post this. It was the B side of a Les Reed single back in the early 70s but is appropriate as it is now 11/11/18.

      It was the B side of ‘Man of Action’, which was the signature tune of the last remaining pirate radio station in the late 60s and early 70s, broadcasting from off the coast of the Netherlands, Radio North Sea International. I listened regularly.

    226. Clapper57 says:

      To those who interact with FUD and as a typical Fud seems impervious to criticism and seems to have obsession with this site….perhaps focus on his Achilles heel …..I remember him getting right stroppy over someone highlighting his needy effort on a certain dating site.

      He just loves to berate us all by using term NATS …so if you must interact and he uses term NATS again ask him if it is an acronym for dating site NATS…Nobody Asked The Saddo….dating site for losers.

      Petty I know but fucks sake this guy has latched onto this site like a fricken leech onto skin.

    227. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      If you’ve watched ‘Outlaw King’ over the weekend, here’s a wee follow-up.

    228. crazycat says:

      @ All

      Yes East Ayrshire’s 2018 crowdfunder (with perks this time) went live this morning at 9 o’clock :

      I’m aware that there are lots of people trying to raise money at the moment, but if anyone could give us a bit of publicity via eg Twitter, that would be greatly appreciated!

    229. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s a question for the cogno… cog… those who know a think or two, when did music videos start being shown in pubs? I could swear I remember a screen in the corner of the bar just off the Leidseplein in the early 80s showing the likes of this:

      my fave’s the one on the right, swear I knew someone identical

    230. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, Mind, I was back working there late 90s, so it’s probably then I’m thinking of with the music video thing, same tune.

    231. The Milngavie Fox says:

      Friday night light relief. I see people on the wee dug dicussing constitutions,flags and national anthems but what would be your own “alternative anthem” for a new nation.

      I can think of Alex Harvey-Anthem
      Proclaimers -throw the R away
      Glasvegas-Go sqaure go
      Orange Juice (Union) rip it up and start again.
      I’m sure you can do better.

    232. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s one for FudnRock, the Desperate Duo, or Pratman and Bobin’ as they’re affectionately known.

    233. Cactus says:

      Ello, allo, allo… whit has a been a gaun on in here, like.

      Big day for the future of the (former) uk today.

      Get really ready for the eruption!:

      Tune in from 2pm.

      o/t is ok.

    234. Cactus says:

      Hive been listening to the bbc radio thru this morning.

      Some right belters of callers in there…

      “We have been very clear”

      Wah ha ha ha, ha.

      Ian Blackford (good guy), Scotland, is up next on radio…

    235. Cactus says:

      Did anybuddy else just get a DAB radio signal cut out there…?

      Ian Blackford is speaking NOW.

    236. Cactus says:

      Any day soon will be the day, look out yer mornin’ window.

    237. Cactus says:


      C major
      F major
      G major
      C route baybey!

      kinda thing.


    238. Cactus says:

      Did you hear that, BBC Radio Scotland travel lady…

      Whit just happened there hehehe?

      She freaked out!

      Did U hear it.

    239. Cactus says:

      Welcome tae #offtopicathon2018 🙂

      This is yer November edition.

      Saint Andrew’s Day is…

      30/11/18, like..

      Ye up TAE!


    240. Cactus says:

      The quickening begins today…

      It’s TFC.

      NB ‘TFC’ equates to The Final Countdown, Sandy 🙂

      Radio is freaking out!

      We’re there.

    241. Cactus says:

      Pleased to meet with you y’all 🙂

      This one is for you and us one and all:

      Ahm right intae Europe, like.

      And Venus.

    242. yesindyref2 says:

      I think (and hope) we’re seeing this, with a large amount of choreography

    243. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This is a follow-up to my comment on the main page at:-

      “Stanley Unwin’s final TV interview.”

    244. Smallaxe says:

      “Talkin’ Politician Blues”

      Ah’m fed up readin’ aboot politrickens n’ thur polytricks.

    245. Smallaxe says:

      “Politician Blues”

      Ah’m still fed up!

    246. Smallaxe says:

      The Levellers: “Social Insecurity”

      England’s fed up as well!

    247. Smallaxe says:

      Free: “Little Bit Of Love”

      Feeling better noo.

    248. Smallaxe says:

      McGuinness Flint: “Malt & Barley Blues”

      It’s just the booze talkin’

    249. Smallaxe says:

      John Kongos: “He’s gonna step on you again”

      If you remember that track, then you should be in your bed!

    250. Smallaxe says:

      CCS: “Tap Turns on the Water”

      Quite durty that first bit, intit?

    251. Smallaxe says:

      Albert Hammond: “The Free Electric Band”


    252. Smallaxe says:

      Curved Air: “Backstreet Luv”

      Luvly lassie, intshe?

    253. Smallaxe says:

      Renaissance: “Northern Lights”

      Sa’nother luvly lassie

    254. Smallaxe says:

      Yes: “Wonderous Stories”

      YES would be wonderful, wintit?

    255. Smallaxe says:

      Fleetwood Mac: “Man of the world”

      Good night

    256. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Smashing band from the Holy Loch – the Evil Geniuses

      If anybody has a succinct sentence to describe the clusterbourach of the Brexit deal I’d be very happy to stick it into my Roundabout Show (7pm)tomorrow night on Argyll Independent Radio online

    257. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      Police were called to the House of Commons today, to investigate the disappearance of sanity over Brexit. 600 people were detained for further questioning by a psychiatrist, but the SNP, PC, Greens and LibDem MPs [1] were released.

      [1] You can forget the LibDems if you want 🙂 And check the 600 bit.

      Something like that!

    258. yesindyref2 says:

      Maybe “and a few others”. They’re not all totally crackerjack.

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      Your comment is awaiting moderation.
      16 November, 2018 at 6:28 am

      Maybe “and a few others”. They’re not all totally cr*ckerj*ck.

    260. yesindyref2 says:

      You might want to add “a few others”.

      3rd attempt, others awaiting moderation 🙁

    261. cearc says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      It’s a toraidh boarach. Which roughly translates as a falling out of thieves.


      Great to see you on such fine form. Some good tunes there. Love to you both.

    262. Nana says:

      A wee song for Smallaxe who I believe has been interacting with the motor trade

    263. Nana says:

      A wee tune for Tinto, who likes the occasional surprise

    264. Gary45% says:

      Hi Troops,
      Please raise a glass to my old mate who passed today.
      One of the good ones who directed me to Indy decades ago.

    265. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Gary45% 8:28 pm

      Large Glenlivet for your mate Gary and a gaelic tune

    266. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nana: re Smallaxe and his new chariot, was thinking more along these lines:

      Could I respectfully point out that the goat-nadgering season does not resume until the vernal equinox?

      @hackalumpoff 8.35:top track. She had a great voice.

    267. Smallaxe says:

      Nana, do you want a lift?

      Bob Marley and the Wailers (BMW)
      Takin’ it slow

      Hi, cearc!

    268. hackalumpoff says:

      Hey Smallaxe
      She is driving me here.

      Help Polis..

      Tinto an education from a Master Pedant

    269. Smallaxe says:


      Sorry to hear about your loss, a glass of cognac raised in respect to ‘one of the good ones’.

      “Goodbye My Friend”: Linda Ronstadt

    270. hackalumpoff says:

      New Cabinetmaker required, maybe this chap will do

      On the other hand I prefer this guy.

    271. Liz g says:

      Gary 45% @ 8.28
      Large Dram…. raised to …The memory of yer very good friend…

    272. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Tinto an education from a Master Pedant”

      I watched that carefully and there was nothing about wee flags, hackalumpoff. Harvey was so disappointed.

      Looking forward to his explanation of Precession and The Great Year, the speccy dweeb.

    273. Smallaxe says:

      I would help with that carpentry…

      If I Had a Hammer;

    274. hackalumpoff says:

      Jaysus Smallaxe she’s batterin me, all I asked for was Merc.

      let’s go

    275. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Smallaxe.

      Good to see you actively commenting again. If you like, drop me an email at:-

      brianALLTHESHIT [at] doonthetoon [dot] plus [dot] com (removing ALLTHESHIT to give you the proper email addy). There’s stuff I have wanted to send you over the months.

      BTW: you may recall a couple of years ago or so, I typed that I was gonna upload a single for 25th January, when I found it in my hovelhold.

      I eventually found it. But, unfortunately, at some point, probably whisky influenced, I had fallen against the carrier bag which contained it and it was in many pieces.

      However, I consulted eBay and I think I bought the only copies of both the 7″ and 12″ versions that were available at that time.

      No’ tellin’ yi what it is but I will upload either version to YouTube sometime in January.

      So there!


    276. Tinto Chiel says:

      I may have been a trifle insulting about yon equinoctial guy. After all, precession is all so simple:

      Smallaxe and I have had several symposia thereon and not a wine glass in sight.

    277. Smallaxe says:

      Hackalupoff, speed up a bit;
      Fast enough?

      BDTT, on it Brian!

    278. hackalumpoff says:

      @ tinto – Sonny Jim,
      Precession & the equation of time, Sextants at Noon, you name the place, I’ll name the time:

    279. hackalumpoff says:

      In light of the UN Man’s report today confirming what we have all known about the Tories and UB.
      This is one of my favourite songs by Eric Bogle with the story behind it.

      The CD version is slower and better with John

    280. Smallaxe says:

      Tinto says, “not a wine glass in sight”. That’s only because you drink it oot the boatle!
      😉 hic***

    281. Tinto Chiel says:

      @hackalumpoff: come ahead, Govan ferry!

      @Smallaxe:”drink it oot the boatle.” That’s a disgraceful suggestion. Our wine glasses were away for re-chamfering, if you must know.

      Honestly, some folks!

    282. Nana says:

      @ Smallaxe

      Dinking oota bottle ! Ma Chiel is sookin the couch.

      HMRC and Rangers have nothing on this guy he even has shares in distilleries and has side drain from Dalmore.

    283. Smallaxe says:

      A friend of mine had a fight with A Bottle of Whisky, Nana.
      I had to gie him hauners! The two o’ us still got beat.

    284. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Tinto
      Govan ferry? Surely somewhere near Shengen like

      None of yer goats milk porridge testicles there.

    285. Tinto Chiel says:

      @hackalumpoff, Smallaxe.

      Youse two are pure bringing doon the tone of this thread.

      Velour baffies and exquisite water-silk dressing-gown on so I’ll just leave you with this metaphysical apercu:

      Polish definition of nothing: two men and a bottle of vodka.


    286. Gary45% says:

      Many Thanks for the kind words.
      The both of us were gutted in 2014, we even had a place picked for the raising of the dram, the bottle got placed back in the cabinet ready for the next Indy, alas he will miss it, but will be there in spirit.

    287. Smallaxe says:


      Go Placidly, my friend.

    288. Smallaxe says:

      Popa Chubby: “Sweet Goddess Of Love And Beer”

      Goodnight everybody.

    289. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Tinto, Nightie Nite up the woodeny hill in Tinto Towers, don’t wake Mrs Tinto.

      @ Smallaxe same to you sir.

      Oi tink Mrs hackalumpoff has gone furra walk on the links.(winky)

      Sad to hear of the passing of Tony Joe White, he was on my to see bucket list RIP Tony. Bless all Wingers, including Trolls.

      Cockburns Haggis ramorra as Cactus says.

      Over to the nightshift Cactus.

    290. Tinto Chiel says:

      For some reason I didn’t sleep at all well, Smallaxe. I wonder why?

      Gary45%: sorry to hear your sad news. I often think of all the Scots in the past 300 years or so who died without seeing their quiet, secret dream of independence achieved and with little prospect of it in their whole lives. Before the SNP, what party was ever going to deliver it? Certainly not those twisters in the Liberal party or Labour with their “Home Rule”.

      We’re the lucky ones because we’re very close now to seeing it happen and I think you’ll be having a dram from that bottle soon. Thankfully the Young ‘Uns don’t give a flying fruit bat for the BBC’s propaganda or the mainstream press so they’re beyond their control and the UK state is crumbling before our eyes.

      Ironically, I suspect it will be the “boring” legal/historical concept of sovereignty which will finally trip up WM when we get the two pending legal judgments.

    291. Cactus says:

      Evenin’ hackalumpoff, a howde do, ah was away for the morning yesterday.

      Just been listening to the talk radio wireless and have now looked out a game for me X box… it’s the original Forza Horizon racing game. To the track players.

      Aye may multitask accordingly.

      A glass raised to ye.

    292. marga says:

      Hi, just a note to ask if there’s any pre-Christmas Wings get-togethers planned in Edinburgh 7-15 December. Visiting Scotland for the first time in years so would welcome some chat. Joyce

    293. Cactus says:

      Hey marga, what say you Winger Citizens of Edinburgh… ah could make it over frae Glasgow furra day/night out if y’all fancy getting a gathering a going a gain.

      Either Sat 8th or 15th December would be best.

    294. Tinto Chiel says:

      Slide guitar and killer bass line?

      Nae Problemo…

    295. Tinto Chiel says:

      Evening, Smallaxe. Amazing bass playing, that. He can sure spank his plank.

      Frankly, I found Paolo’s track to be thinly-veiled, suggestive filth: more please.

      Square roundabout an excellent metaphor for Brexit, non?

      Are your wheels hot?

    296. Tinto Chiel says:

      Julie was always great but yon Brian Auger was a BIT of a twit imo. Geddit?

      I had a terrible secondary teacher for a while in S1 who used to say, “A simile’s just a figure of speech you haven’t met afore!”

      He ended up driving an SMT bus: a school bus, as it turned out.

    297. Smallaxe says:

      Brian Auger might have been a BIT of a twit, Tinto but he knew the drill;

    298. Fred says:

      @ Smallaxe, good to see you back in your chair kid! 🙂

    299. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Cheers, Smallaxe

      As we approach the 60th anniversary of Not Fade Away Day (3rd February) I remember walking to school that day in 1959 almost in tears – like most of the guys. Buddy Holly was our guy – not any of the pretty boys or the media constructions like Elvis.
      That is why my wee radio show is called “Not Fade Away” – because I believe its construction with its Afro American hambone beat which lends itself to imaginative improvisation is the actual soul of rock’n’roll -and has probably been jammed by more artists than any other song ever.

      Florence and the Machines’s version I found a little disappointing though I played it on my show because it is just a litle too clever.
      Grateful Dead made it their standard. There are dozens of their versions available.
      The Austin City Limits version you list is awesome, as much because of the line up.
      But I still find myself trying to decide between Stevie Nix and Tanya Tucker (and of course the Crickets original – amazing what you can do with three guys and a lot of talent).

    300. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Fred, I’m just popping in now and again to get some relief fae that FUD on the main thread. He admits that he votes conservative and he’s oan datin’ sites lookin’ fur a burd.
      Ergo, just another tory wanker!

      Here’s a wee XXX-rated video ae ‘im;
      It wisnae me!

    301. Smallaxe says:

      Thanks’ for that really interesting reply Dave. Her’s another 3 but I think they would be too long for a radio show.

      “NOT FADE AWAY”: Jon Bon Jovi;

      Black Oak Arkansas: “Not Fade Away”;

      Trout Fishing In America: “Not Fade Away”

    302. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Smallaxe –

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Something about that wee video reminded me of the Furry Freak Brothers, who I’m sure you’re familiar with. We used to pass around the magazine in Art School, would’ve been early 80s. My favourite was Fat Freddy’s Cat and the cockroach colonel who would send them into battle: ‘There’s plenty more where they came from!’

      Which kind of brings us full-circle, to OT being a refuge from the fekkin pests on the MT…


    303. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Smallaxe et al.

      RE: Julie Driscoll. “Fabulous 208” magazine used to pepper their issues with full page (A4?) posters of ‘pop stars’. I still have the one of Julie Driscoll from her “Wheel’s On Fire” period, stashed in my hovelhold. Wonderful lookin’ wummun.

      Dave McEwan Hill.

      RE: Not Fade Away.
      Back in the late 70s, a Rock ‘n’ Roll revival band called Fumble played at my DJ residency, The Bowlin’ Alley in Dundee (Dundee Institute of Technology Students Union).

      They were excellent. Do a Google for their album “Poetry In Lotion”. They did “Not Fade Away” but encouraged the audience to sing along with it, like in this recording. “b-dowm, b-dowm, b-dowm dowm.”

    304. Smallaxe says:


      “Hambone” “Steve McCraven”

      Tinto, don’t you go trying that!

      Too late, ye did, didn’t ye?

    305. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: Not Fade Away.

      This video came up next after Fumble’s. Look at the SIZE of the band! There must be around 7 or 8 guitarists…

    306. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: Not Fade Away.

      Cancel my last comment. Just caught up. Mea Culpa…

    307. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Tinto, don’t you go trying that!

      Too late, ye did, didn’t ye?”


      Good job I was wearing my leather chaps from the Old Ponderosa!

    308. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Brian Doonthetoon at 9.11
      That was interesting

    309. Smallaxe says:

      Chess, it Tinto?

      One Night in Bankok;

      That’s me rooked!

    310. Smallaxe says:

      Ther shood be a IS betweeen chess anD IT, ma spelqueckres phucked agane.

      Original Mixed Up Kid;

    311. Tinto Chiel says:

      Oh, Smallaxe, you are a silly sossage.

      Nearest I got to Banknock was Kilsyth!

      Spent too long in The Scarecrow…

      Coulda happened to anybody 😛

    312. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I see that ‘off-topic’ is back to normal viewing.

      Onwards and upwards…

    313. Smallaxe says:

      The Scarecrow, wissat you in ther, Tinto?;


      That explains everything.

    314. Smallaxe says:

      Onwards and Upwards, Brian!

      Did you like the lyrics?, I think the second verse is the best.

    315. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Wissat you in ther?”

      Musing upon the king my brother’s wreck, Smallaxe.

      Liked yon video: it had trees in it. I like trees. 😛

    316. Smallaxe says:

      Tinto, do you think you’re the Fisher King?

      You’ll finish up in the…;

      “Sea of Heartbreak”

      Kin ye swim?

    317. Smallaxe says:

      The Honeycombs: “Have I the right”

      A blast from the past! Way before my time.


    318. Tinto Chiel says:

      No, I can’t swim, Smallaxe, despite my figure-hugging Speedos (for The Laydees, obvs).

      FYI, my secondary skool got the choice of a full-length swimming pool or a groovy 60s-style sub-Picasso Muriel (Coronation Street version).

      Of course the utter spanners chose the Muriel. Ergo, no canny swim.

      Life can be bitter, like tears of chard (peotry).

      I know you understand, old mole.

    319. Smallaxe says:

      FYI, Tinto, my school had a swimming pool, so I can swim but only at night, ’cause I went to night school!

      R.E.M. “Nightswimming”

      Dark intit?

    320. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Dark, intit?”

      Until the rosy-fingered morn, Smallaxe.

      And then we go again.

      Nuffin else furrit, as my grannie used to say before filling her cutty pipe.

      Sleep well, mon vieux.

    321. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Smallaxe at 9.45

      The drum track on that original version of Not Fade Away by the marvelous Jerry Allison (the last surviving Cricket)was with drumsticks on a cardboard box and a snare drum. Not Fade Away was a B side -as was Well All Right – two of the most respected of Buddy’s songs. But as I said -three guys in a small studio!

    322. Smallaxe says:

      It’s ma turn tae pipeclay the sterrs ramorra, Tinto. Mibbies ah’l see ye wanst ah’m done. Ah hope thers nae mice aboot!

      Squeak well, Tinto.

    323. Smallaxe says:

      An amazing sound from 3 guys in a studio Dave.

      Here are Five Guys Named Mo:

      S’amazin whit ye kin learn oan aff topic, intit?

    324. Tinto Chiel says:

      Fanx, Smallaxe.

      Re pipeclaying the stairs, I know from my unfortunate time in yon Turkish prison (simple misunderstanding) that it can be hard on the knees.

      BTW: Granny says, “Hi!”


    325. Tinto Chiel says:



    326. Smallaxe says:

      Is yoor spelqueker phucked as well, Tinto?

      Don’t wurry s’only wurds;

      Gees oh!

    327. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yup, it’s Phuket, and I’ve never even been there!

      #Ware the Phuk am I?

      Laters, haters!

    328. Smallaxe says:

      I had Leg of Swan for dinner tonight, I didn’t kill the swan ’cause they belong to Queenie but it will go round in circles ’till I go back for the other leg next week. Then it’ll just go with the flow.


    329. Fred says:

      Youse guys is jist too sharp fur me!

    330. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Chiel at 10:45 pm last night.

      You typed,
      “Liked yon video: it had trees in it. I like trees.”

      Here you are then – 47 minutes of ‘Trees – FULL ALBUM – The Garden of Jane Delawney’.


      From Wikipedia…
      “Trees was a British folk rock band recording and touring throughout 1969, 1970 and 1971, reforming briefly to continue performing throughout 1972. Although the group met with little commercial success in their time, the reputation of the band has grown over the years, and underwent a renaissance in 2007 following Gnarls Barkley’s sampling of the track Geordie (from Trees’ second album On The Shore) on the title track of their multi-million selling album St. Elsewhere.”

    331. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve just had the two Trees albums playing as my wallpaper whilst I was surfing.

      They were both fine but the second was a tad heavier. (It came on automatically, as YouTube does.)

    332. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks, Brian. I’d never heard of the band Trees but I really liked the album. Reminded me of early Fairport Convention, which is a Good Thing. I’m also a bit of a sucker for the harpsichord in groovy music.

      This album just reminds you of the crass Spotification of music now. Everything becomes shorter and “hooky” and there is no space for an album which can breathe and experiment.

      Do you know of a band called Pictish Stones? That would make my night 😛

      Aberlemno, ya bass!

    333. Thepnr says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Aberlemno, ya bass!

      That’s a wee village just 10 mile from where I live and I’ve never saw these Pictish stones though driven through the village numerous times.

      I’m way behind you and Fred when it comes to what there is to see about Scotland and Scots history, will pay Aberlemno a visit again soonest. This time I’ll stop.

      Cheers 🙂

    334. Lucia Daines says:

      The main stones by the road in Aberlemno are covered up now until the spring.

    335. Thepnr says:

      @Lucia Daines

      Thanks for the info, much appreciated 🙂

      I take it they are covered in winter to stop wear and tear from the weather?

    336. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Thepnr: I try to visit any Pictish stones I come across when I’m travelling around. Perthshire, Angus and Aberdeenshire have many of the Best ‘Uns. You’re lucky to live in such a good area for them. A lot go back to the 6th/7th/8th c. or thereabouts, although dating can be difficult. The meaning of the non-Christian symbols has never been solved so they remain an intriguing mystery.

      Harvey really enjoys filling in his special I-Spy book.There’s even a couple on Skye from before the Viking invasion and a weird outlier near Gatehouse of Fleet in D&G.

      Heard this while cruising along the Cadzow Corniche in the Bentley Con today and thought it perfect for the beautiful people/Brains’ Trust types wot you get on here.

      Dunfallandy: FWOARRRRRRRRRRR!

    337. Smallaxe says:

      It’s like ‘Take Your Pict” in here, is Michael Miles online?

      A few questions Tinto:

      1/ ” A lot go back to the 6th/7th/8th c.”: How do they travel back?

      2/ “although dating can be difficult”: Do you really want to go on a date with one?

      3/ “There’s even a couple on Skye from before the Viking invasion: Who are they and do they have any weans?

      You’ve won tonights *Star Prize* for being stoned oot yer skull;

      Paul Weller: “Broken Stones”

    338. Smallaxe says:

      Lucia & Thepnr,

      Watch what you’re doing with that big tree hugger or the next thing you’ll know is;


    339. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      I submitted a post around 8.35 which contained two links. Since the recent upgrade to the site, my posts have been appearing immediately – sometimes I’ve had to refresh the page – but the comments have appeared.

      This one tonight seems to have disappeared so I’ll try it again, split into two parts.

      Hi Thepnr et al.

      RE: (Pictish) stones.

      I’m guessing you’ve never seen these ones either? They’re within the Dundee City Limits, around 400 yards to the west of the Charleston Schemie Limits.

      Here’s a quote from the link below:-

      “Dating from between 5300 and 4500 years ago, this is the southernmost example of a recumbent Stone Circle in Tayside. The site sign describes it as having one non-recumbent stone with the original nine boulders remaining although damaged by weather and vandalism (the latter being the reason for the surrounding fence nowadays, although the gate was not locked in September 2012 permitting access to the circle). Jade fragments and flints have been recovered from this site and are in the National Museum of Scotland.

    340. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      WordPress, or the filters on this site, don’t seem to like Google Maps links or tiny urls.

      What to do? Will this comment appear?

    341. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      yep, your correct I’ve never seen them either. I’m surprised though that you never mentioned the Nine Maidens. I saw they stones once when tattie picking 🙂


      Hope to see you soon buddy, planning on visiting my daughter soon if it wouldn;t be a burden would like to drop in for a blether and a cup of tea 😉

    342. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      It did. So now I’ll try the post I did but without the h-t-t-p-s at the front of the Google Maps link. If the post appears, you’ll need to highlight the link, then drag it to your tab bar and it should open.


      Hi Thepnr.

      I even tried posting the link without the h-t-t-p-s at the front of it but the map link was always rejected, as was a tiny url I did of it. It’s annotated on Google Maps, if you look just to the west of Charleston and zoom in.

    343. Smallaxe says:


      No problem, just let me know when as I’ve got a few hospital appointments in the pipeline and I would hate to miss the chance of a wee blether with you.

      Talking Heads: “This must be the place”

    344. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      I’ve never heard of the nine maidens’ stones. The stone that has always been associated with the nine maidens legend is the Balluderon Stone.

      There are some pics at this site, and a map showing where it is.

      More info on the legend here:-

      I had a couple of pics taken by Pete the Camera, on my now defunct ‘Doon The Toon’ web site. You can see one of them here:-

    345. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr et al.

      Maybe you didn’t know this?

      Maybe worth a vist, next time you’re ‘doon the toon’…


    346. Tinto Chiel says:

      Smallaxe, your questions are so acute and profound, I will have to muse thereon and revert.

      Still thinking about no.2 actually. 😛

    347. cearc says:

      I’m sure most of the ladies will be able to tell you about neolithic dates.

    348. Tinto Chiel says:

      This is just for cearc:

      Hotlegs soon changed their name to 10cc. Their original handle referred to the habit of drunken fans urinating against their neighbours at Anfield.

      The origin of the term “10cc” is too delicate a manner to discuss at this hour in front of Laydees.

      It’s a good job the gentlemen on here are refined and cerebral, innit?

      Brian, thanks for the info on Martin and the Nine maidens. I will re-read it all today.

    349. Smallaxe says:


      I see that you had a barbeque last night.

    350. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      The Balluderon Stone is the one I have seen and associated with the story of the Nine Maidens.

      I used to go for a pint there every Saturday with my father in law. The Nine Maidens pub in St Marys that is not the site of the stone 🙂

    351. Macart says:

      FFS! I am so done with MT right now and bizarrely it has fuck all to do with yoon trolling.

      Think I’ll take an extended commenting holiday from Wings and just read for a bit.

    352. Smallaxe says:


      Good to see you on O/T Sam, give yourself a rest and…

      “Take it easy”

    353. The Milngavie Fox says:

      Hey Rev, i tried the quiz thing you mentioned. It looks like I am a Left wing populist,anti Trumper like Julio Igleses. I’ll live with that.

    354. Macart says:


      Believe me, I spend quite a bit of time on O/T these days. I just don’t comment and enjoy clicking on the cool music links. 🙂

      Also? Let’s me know that friends are ok.

    355. Thepnr says:


      Yep, we all get like that now and again. I was ready to give up posting a few weeks back and not because of the trolls.

      I can never tell whether or not I’m wasting my time and possibly even making things worse. You never do though and are always a calming influence and a positive voice.

      Take a break but haste yeh back as you would be sorely missed and there is no reason at all that Wings could not be overrun just as many newspaper comment sections have.

      Maybe it’s all in my imagination and Wings is under no threat but for a long time now I’ve tried to remain positive and if necessary don’t mind having a disagreement or two. I think it’s fine for others to have opinions that differ from mine, would be strange if they didn’t such as the timing of the next referendum.

      Having opposing views and stating them can bring you grief and that grief is felt but is the honest thing to do.

      So I think I know how you might feel at times as I can feel much the same. Whatever you do, I’d hate to see you abandon Wings for good so please come back. Your voice is very much respected and needed.

    356. Smallaxe says:

      ‘Also? Let’s me know that friends are ok.’

      You have one of these, Sam;
      “Heart of Gold”

      Peace, Love and Independence for all of us, the sooner the better.

    357. Tinto Chiel says:

      BBQ, Smallaxe? Possibly.

      I remember talking to a charming young lady from Gondwanaland and then it all got a bit hazy.

      As you say, Sam, sometimes it’s “our” posters who get your goat the most. You yourself always avoid making it personal and show real compassion and the longer view in your comments.

      Sometimes you just have to take step back from the keyboard and go and hug a therapeutic Pictish stone. Think your closest is Trusty’s Hill.

    358. Thepnr says:

      Here’s some music from Vangelis who is now a 75 year old. I doubt the music will ever get old, just as Mozart doesn’t age.

    359. Smallaxe says:


      The Queen of the night from…
      Die Zauberflöte

      My droogs and I prefer a bit of the old Ludvig Van…
      Beethoven 9th symphony 4th movement;
      Tick Tock

    360. Thepnr says:


      I’ve long suspected it but you have confirmed this afternoon that you are an absolute nutter! LOL

      Never judge a book by it’s cover, here’s someone that can play the piano.

    361. Thepnr says:

      This might be a 21st century version of a female Motzart or Beethoven.

    362. Smallaxe says:

      I am something of a musician also, I’ll have you for to know! Every night I wait until my wife has fallen asleep, and, as she sleeps with her mouth open, I pick up my guitar, stick a harmonica in her mouth and kid on that I’m Bob Dylan! 🙂

      I also used to play the piano as you will see from this old home movie of mine;
      That was before I grew my beard.

    363. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s one for you, totally random mind 🙂

    364. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      RE: Vangelis. (I recollect and digress here…)

      Back in 1969, I wanted a reel-to-reel tape recorder. There was a Fidelity 4-Track in my Mum’s clubbie book at £34. But I worked out that if I went to the shop at the top of Prince’s Street/ bottom of Albert Street, that bought and sold fag coupons, I could get the same machine from the Kensitas catalogue for £17, by buying the required coupons.

      This I did, then started recording Radio 1 and music TV shows, through the recorder’s mic. That’s why I remember the track I’ve linked to below. I have it on a tape in my hovelhold, recorded from my Dad’s Cossor 11-Band wireless. It’s only in the past 5 years or so that I’ve learned that it was by ‘Aphrodite’s Child’, a Greek band that featured both Vangelis and Demis Roussos (on bass and vocals).

      It’s the kind of song that you think, ‘where did that come from?’, because it sounds like you’ve heard it before. Vangelis seemed to have a talent for that. While you’re listening to “Chariots of Fire”, sing the words of that Alexander Brothers classic, “These are my mountains”. Vangelis had obviously heard it!

      Onnyhoo, here’s Aphrodite’s Child from 1969.

      And to help you out, here’s Tom & Jack…

    365. Smallaxe says:

      And here’s Tom and Jerry;

      Who thought…

    366. Thepnr says:

      How’d a thunk it? Demis Roussos and Vangelis from 1969! You get 10/10 for that one Brian 🙂

      Loved the story too about the Kensitas coupons, I remember that shop well, Kensitas coupons were better than the rest, not only were they on better paper but you get 10 in a pack of twenty and 5 in a pack of ten hahaha.

    367. Thepnr says:


      That’s a 10/10 as well for Tome & Jerry haha very good.

    368. Smallaxe says:

      I got a kicking for posting my dads football coupons in a box stamped ‘Post Your Daz Coupons Here!’
      “The Coupon Song”

      Ah wis in right soapy bubble, soawis.

    369. Thepnr says:


      I lived in a tenement in Easterhouse in the 60’s and around 1964 or 1965 an OXO woman was in our street giving money away to households that used Oxo’s.

      She was in the tenement next door when my mum got wind of this so she put me out the back windae to go to the shops which were right next door to buy a box of 12 beef Oxo cubes and a box of 12 Chicken Oxo cubes.

      These were in the days that you bought Oxo cubes as singles and nobody ever had a box but you got more money as a prize for a box and even more for Chicken cubes.

      So a couple of minutes later I climb back in the kitchen windae as the back and the Oxo woman has been at the door already for about a minute while my mum prenteded to saerch for the Oxo’s LOL.

      I hands them over and she gallantly presents them to the Oxo woman, “Ah fund them, here yir are” two unopened packets of 12 cubes of beef and chicken Oxo’s was presented.

      We were immediately disqualified and accused of cheating! There was hell in the street, riots went on for days as we’d been robbed of a couple of bob that was rightfully ours.

      True story that, well apart from the riots 🙂

    370. Smallaxe says:


      Ah ripped a lump oot the back ae ma troosers and ma maw put black boot polish oan ma arse and telt me naebody wid notice!

      “Poor Boy Blues” Chet Atkins & Mark Knopfler;

      The guid aul’ days ma black arse!

    371. Thepnr says:

      I’m so glad I decided to pop back into Off Topic yesterday, I have had a grin on my face all day.

      Some good stuff and sometimes you’ve just gotta laugh, how about “mochart drawers” 🙂

    372. Thepnr says:

      This short clip of someone getting their comeuppance is good and well deserved.

      I know you’re all alert readers so you won’t miss the subliminal message on the sign at the start of the clip lol.

    373. Smallaxe says:

      Clatty Bella isn’t so funny;

      I’zat big Treeza’s real name?

    374. Smallaxe says:

      Eddie Floyd: “Knock On Wood”

      Too much banging and knocking in here, the neighbours will be complaining. As usual!

    375. Thepnr says:

      One thing I’ve never been and that is a music “snob”. By that I mean that anything “pop” must be no good and only certain music is good if it suits their particular tastes.

      Well bollocks to that, I like some pop, I like some reggae, I like some punk and I even like some Mozart or Tchaikovsky!

      I was 13 when I heard Tchaikovsky at school in a music lesson it was the 1812 Overture and that was my introduction to classical music. I’ll admit I liked the bangs and the drums but then I found Beethoven through this in the 70’s and was hooked.

    376. Thepnr says:


      My last post was to you as I know I played George Ezra as one of my top ten not so long ago. I played the wrong song though as I couldn’t remember the one I wanted to play which was the one I played on Off Topic when I was sitting in a bar in Baku and was the first time I’d ever heard the guy.

      In fact i didn’t know who it was singing and had to go look it up before I posted it here, I think it was this one 🙂

    377. Fred says:

      Good tae see the auld threid back in action & eclecticism isnae deid! so it isnae.

    378. Smallaxe says:

      Thanks’ for the tunes, Pnr, let’s have a wee bit of class now…

      Mireille Mathieu: “La Vie en Rose”

      Nae slabberin’ at the back!

      Luvly, i’nt she.

    379. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, yes, classical music. It was doing very repetitive and fast arpeggio exercises that gave me RSI turn of the century which meant I had to pack up my previous working life – that and too much UseNet! I thought it was good I kept going till my wrist and fingers burned, good strengthening stuff. Ooopsie!

      It was trying to really master this (and the likes of the fast bits in the Appassionata and others) that made me dun it.

      My kids called me the mad professor 🙂

    380. Smallaxe says:

      Have a look at this lineup…
      1) Mozart Eine Kleine Nachtmusik K525 0:01
      2) Haydn Symphony 94 “Surprise” II 0:01
      3) Beethoven Symphony 9 IV (Ode to Joy) 0:06
      4) Mendelssohn Wedding March in Midsummer Night’s Dream, second theme 0:06
      5) Dvorak Humoresque No.7 0:13
      6) Wagner Lohengrin, Bridal Chorus 0:13
      7) Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto 1 0:19
      8) Saint-Saens Carnival of Animals: Swan 0:19
      9) Bach Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1 Prelude 1 0:19
      10) Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture 0:29
      11) Bach Cello Suite No. 1 0:32
      12) Mendelssohn Song without Words “Spring” 0:33
      13) Schubert Ave Maria 0:40
      14) Schubert Symphony 8 “Unfinished” 0:46
      15) Verdi “La Donna è Mobile” in Rigoletto 0:51
      16) Boccherini String Quartet in E, Op.11 No.5, III. Minuetto 0:55
      17) Beethoven für Elise 1:03
      18) CPE Bach Solfeggietto 1:04
      19) Paganini Capriccio 24 1:11
      20) Mozart Piano Sonata No.11 III (Turkish March) 1:15
      21) Grieg Piano Concerto 1:22
      22) Mozart Requiem Lacrimosa 1:26
      23) Schubert Serenade 1:30
      24) Chopin Prelude in C minor 1:35
      25) Strauss II Overture from Die Fledermaus (Bat) 1:46
      26) Brahms 5 Lieder Op.49, IV. Wiegenlied (Lullaby) 1:46
      27) Satie Gymnopedie 1:56
      28) Debussy Arabesque 2:00
      29) Holst Planets, Jupiter 2:05
      30) Schubert Trout 2:14
      31) Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No.2 2:28
      32) Mozart Variation on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star 2:41
      33) Schumann Op.68, No.10 Merry Peasant 2:47
      34) Schubert Military March in D 2:54
      35) Bach* (could be Petzold) Minuet in G 3:00
      36) Mozart Piano Sonata No.16 in C, K545 3:07
      37) Offenbach Can-can in “Orpheus in the underworld” 3:08
      38) Beethoven Piano Sonata No.8 “Pathetique” II 3:18
      39) Mozart Die Zauberflöte Overture 3:24
      40) Tchaikovsky Romeo and Juliet Overture 3:31
      41) CPE Bach Solfeggietto 3:44
      42) Beethoven Symphony 5 “Fate” 3:47
      43) Wagner Wedding March 3:52
      44) Rachmaninoff Prelude Op.3 No.2 in C# minor 3:53
      45) CPE Bach Solfeggietto 3:56
      46) Paganini Caprice 24 4:01 ( thanks Angel33Demon666 )
      47) Chopin Piano Sonata No. 2 III. Funeral March 4:11
      48) Williams Imperial March in Star War 4:19
      49) Tchaikovsky Marche Slave 4:25
      50) 46. Smetana Ma Vlast II. Moldau 4:38
      51) Tchaikovsky Nutcracker – Flower Waltz (not the main theme!) 4:45
      52) Borodin Polovtsian Dances 4:45
      53) Strauss II Blue Danube 4:58
      54) Vivaldi Four Seasons I. Spring 5:03
      55) Handel Messiah, Hallelujah 5:03
      56) Handel The Entrance of the Queen of Sheba 5:08
      57) Elgar Pomp and Circumstance Marches No. 1 5:15
      58) Pachelbel Canon in D 5:21
      59) Mozart Symphony No. 35 in D major (Haffner) K. 385, IV. Finale, Presto 5:27
      60) Chopin Etude Op.25 No.9 in G flat, “Butterfly” 5:34
      61) Bach Gavotte from French Suite No. 5 in G Major, BWV 816 5:42

      Wan singer wan song!

    381. Thepnr says:


      Space Invaders for geniuses?

    382. Thepnr says:


      Fuck off LOL 🙂

    383. yesindyref2 says:

      Just got to remember to count to 22 🙂

    384. Smallaxe says:

      Off I have fucked;

      “Dreaming in Paint”

      G’night, all.

    385. Thepnr says:

      Here’s a funny thing, this song must be one of my top ten because I’ve posted it here more than any either but I didn’t include it.

      I know Smallaxe will like it as it has a bit of a reggae theme and I know Ian Brotherhood will like it because he’s the one in the suit. Just kidding Ian but I do think of you when I watch this 🙂

    386. Smallaxe says:

      An mi sey nuh like Jamaica oh no mi luv har nuh like Jamaica oh no mi luv har oh yea yuh nuh waak through har words yuh get to show sum respect yuh nuh waak thru har words’Cause yuh nuh hear har out yet.

      Mi a guh bed now.


    387. Thepnr says:


      Where do you fit in? Vulture on the left or a vulture on the right?

    388. yesindyref2 says:

      Both! It’s very confusing, no it isn’t.

    389. Thepnr says:

      OK I’ll let you off, stuck in the middle is fine with me 🙂

    390. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Changing tack completely…

      Here’s a wee poser for yooz. Can anyone post a link for Google Maps, that shows the Glasgow Subway maintenance depot clearly?

      I know where it is and I find the whole concept fascinating. There are even videos on YouTube that show Subway trains above ground.

      Time for bed, typed Zebedee…

    391. Thepnr says:

      I feel like this, this morning.

    392. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Fred.

      I submitted this comment around 12-14 minutes ago and it hasn’t appeared. Mind you, it did have a Google Maps link. Here it is without the link.


      Thanks. I eventually found it on Google Maps – I was looking between the wrong two stations and had it in my mind it was north of the Clyde. It’s actually just to the south of Govan subway station. The tracks to and from it are spurs off the tracks between Govan and Ibrox subway stations.

      You can see it on Google Maps (the satellite has captured two trains).

    393. Tinto Chiel says:

      Since my last trenchant apercu from yesterday is still in moderation (?), this is a tester:

    394. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      This is very nice from James Taylor

    395. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Peeps,

      Tom Petty: “You Don’t Know How It Feels”

      I know how it feels.

    396. Smallaxe says:

      Tinto says:

      ‘trenchant apercu’

      Wis thon fir yer tea or whit and dae they sell them in Aldi’s?

      “I Eat Cannibals”

      Jist wee wans.

    397. Smallaxe says:

      The Byrds: “Wild Mountain Thyme”

      There’s heather and thyme and stuff in it, I think it’s a recipe.

    398. Welsh Sion says:

      Our (English and Chelsea supporter – he wears the kit on his days off) neighbour here in Englandshire, so his natural habitat, is having some building work done. To identify his heap of sand, the (English) builder has stuck a large St George’s flag in the middle of the pile.

      Is he not aware of how unsafe anything built on sand is? Or is this just a metaphor of the current situation in Englandshire?

      Yours, aye.

    399. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Smallaxe: when I was young and lovely and somewhat distracted by these Laydees’ gyrations, I thought they were singing about cannon-balls so I got rather confused.

      Not a great way to lose weight, imho.

      There’s something wrong with the Glesca subway: Merkland Street has disappeared and the original Kelvinbridge portal to other dimensions has been sealed up.

      I speak as a concerned rate-payer.

    400. Smallaxe says:

      This is Nice…

      He plays well with his organ. Ooh, Matron!


    401. Smallaxe says:

      Going underground, Tinto? The public wants what the public gets, ratepayer or not!

      The Jam: “Going Underground”
      Tinto the Troglodyte’s got a nice ring to it, ye think?

    402. Tinto Chiel says:

      Quite so, Smallaxe: I’m second from the left on the cover.


    403. Smallaxe says:

      Smokin’, me tae!
      She was there a minute ago!

      Just herbal fags for me, ta fanks’

    404. Smallaxe says:

      The Stranglers: “Always The Sun”

      Just as well. I howl at the moon quite often.

    405. Tinto Chiel says:

      Schroedinger’s wummin wiv the great Colin Blunstone: chust sublime, old mole.

      I’ve played this afore and I’ll play this again for its pure peotry, then go out and thrash myself with birch twigs:

      “Death keeps a-knocking
      Souls are up for auction,
      Ain’t no use in praying,
      That’s the way it’s staying baby.”

    406. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Five minutes ago, I submitted a rather long comment (but short compared to Ken500!) about Glasgow tunnels, which hasn’t appeared. It contained only 3 links and none of them was to Google Maps. I’ll try to find a workaround…

    407. Tinto Chiel says:

      Stranglers, is it?

      A song for Tony Blair and pals:

      M. Burnel and his distinctive twangy bass…..

    408. Smallaxe says:

      That song wis quite durty, Tinto. You’ll get intae…


    409. Smallaxe says:

      Brian Doonthetoon is loast doon a tunnel, he’s in…

      Dire Straits;

      Hang on Brian, we’re on our way.

    410. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I tried again, stripping the prefixes from the links…


      So, I’ll try again… Tell you what; I’ll describe something I’ve found works, when peeps leave off the h-t-t-p(s)// and w-w-w. from pasted links.

      What I do is highlight the entire supposed link (making sure there are no spaces at either end) then click-hold on it and drag it to the tab bar. An indicator usually appears, so I let go the mouse button and the “linked” page usually appears. I’ll try that with the comment I submitted around 7.45pm.


      So I did – and the comment didn’t appear! Is it just me? I will do something else. I may be some time.

    411. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Durty”? I’m sure I don’t know what you mean…..

      I prefer the term “hard-edged”. I pass over the infamous Primal Scream groupies-and-chocolate-fountain incident somewhere in Fife.

      RLM has quite a voice, hasn’t he? Mind you, you haven’t heard me in the shower.

      @BDTT: there’s gremlins on here. You should try accessing some of these old lines via the former Botanical station up to Kirklee.


    412. Smallaxe says:

      Tracy Chapman & Eric Clapton: “Give Me One Reason”

      I didnae hiv a reason fir playin’ that!
      That’s just the way I roll.

    413. Smallaxe says:

      Spooky, Tinto. I’ll give you Spooky…


      Ye feart?

    414. Smallaxe says:

      “Tin Soldier” Small Faces;

      Jist ’cause a like it.

    415. Smallaxe says:

      Sam Cooke: “Bring it on Home to Me”

      Good that, wintit!

    416. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yup, great track, Smallaxe but a weird combo when you fink about it, TC’s fantastic soul voice and English Mod R&R.

      I love this old one: crocodile-skin shoes and fitted hippy jackets. If you have buns (!), prepare to shed them now….

      Anyhow, off to strip some lead so laters, haters.

    417. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Smallaxe.

      “Tin Soldier”. When they did that on ‘Top of the Pops’, the female singer was Madeleine Bell.

    418. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      For Tinto Chiel, Fred, and anyone else interested.

      I think I’ve solved the problem of non-appearing comments. I’ve got some web space so I’ve pasted the missing comment there, along with the follow-up(s) I was gonna post.

      You can find it here:-

    419. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      WAY-HEY!!! Cookin’ beh gas!

    420. Tinto Chiel says:

      *Puts down lead-cutters and removes mask*

      Wow! great stuff, Brian. Thanks for all that. Will descend into the darkness now to meet Enki and Gilgamesh…..

    421. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Brian,

      Steve Marriot wrote the song, it was on the album ‘Ogdens’ Nut Gone Flake’

    422. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Smallaxe.

      I have that album on vinyl…

      In 1967, when me and my cousin were Saturday night regulars at the Skyline Bowl in Dundee (which became ‘The Bowlin’ Alley’, the students’ union of Dundee Institute of Technology, now Abertay University, where I was DJ for 11 years), I recall the most played songs on the Juke Box during the summer of ’67 were,
      Baby You’re A Rich Man, Beatles,
      Itchycoo Park, Small Faces,
      See Emily Play, Pink Floyd.

    423. Smallaxe says:

      Sorry for the delay, Brian. Mrs Smallaxe came back from a ‘Black Friday’ sale (on a Thursday?) and my bank account is probably in the RED! She says hello and asked me to play this first track from 1967;

      Lulu: “To Sir with Love”

      Van Morrison: “Brown Eyed Girl”

      Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell: “You’re all I need to get by”

      Goodnight All.

    424. Fred says:

      @ Smallaxe, for shame! that will be the Lulu who appeared on a platform with Molly Weir supporting Maggie Thatcher!!!

      @ Brian, the Central Station tour is braw, Paul Lyons patter is first class! Wear jodhpurs & carry a riding crop to deter rodents. Didn’t get onto the roof as it was snawy! He plans to open up a blocked arch & get a loco & coach doon there!

    425. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Smallaxe, Thepnr, TC, BDTT et al (whoever he is) –

      Trying to catch-up on all this OT ‘busyness’ – fuckin blimey!

      Plenty of brain-food right here, it’ll take me a while, and not just a ‘wee while’…

      Smallaxe, thanks so much for the Freak Bros link, it would never have crossed my mind to look for it on YT, but it’s brilliant that someone went to the bother of doing all that. Must’ve been very laborious and many will say ‘Why bother?!’ but that material is valuable.

      Lots of stuff happening here on the home-front so I haven’t been able to keep-up, but this is just a swift one to tell y’all I love youse as my own kin.

      More power tae us all!


      Work for Peace!

    426. Smallaxe says:

      Fred, for shame?
      I honoured my good lady’s request to play a song that she first heard and loved, I may add, when she was just a maiden of 12 tender years in the leafy suburbs of Bridgeton, Glasow.

      The shame is yours, sir, I have not informed my good lady of your boorish remark as this would only serve to upset her delicate disposition.
      I must though, insist on your immediate and sincere apology otherwise I will have my second contact you to make the necessary arrangements in order for me, as a gentleman, to extract my satisfaction on the duelling field.

      Sincerely yours,

    427. Michael McCabe says:

      What Ian Brotherhood said last night. Aye

    428. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT: some really good photos and information on that site: fanx. The old staircase almost lost under the rubbish of the ages is quite an image. That bit of mosaic flooring near Bridgeton is very fine and must have been expensive originally.

      Re the Central Hotel above the station, has anyone heard the urban legend type-of-story of the discovery of a room in its upper stories apparently fitted out as some kind of torture chamber, complete with nasty stains?

      Michael McCabe: time you got back on here spinning your classy platters.

    429. Fred says:

      Smallaxe, I’ve been anticipating a whitewashed Lulu backing independence a la Connolly, but didn’t expect it from yourself. I have met Mrs Smallaxe however & wouldn’t upset her for the world so Pax Vobiscum kid!

    430. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Chiel.

      At the link below, scroll down to…

      “The third strange thing: Off a small attic room is a closet under the eaves – only 4 feet high. It has been carefully lined with very sharp razor blades pushed quite firmly into the wall:”

    431. Tinto Chiel says:

      Great stuff, Brian: thanks for rooting all that out. The comments btl are rather unsettling, despite the “art installation” explanation.

      In the film “The Maggie”, the American character played by Paul Douglas “stays” at the Central Hotel and is pictured coming out of the corner entrance. Scotland hardly figured in films in those days and the Glasgow street and river scenes and the West Coast footage were very memorable for me when I eventually saw the film on TV in the 80s.

    432. Fred says:

      President Kennedy was also a guest at the Central!

    433. Shinty says:

      BDTT- thanks for that link.

      Never knew Bob Hope, Roy Rogers & Trigger ever came to Glasgow.
      (Three of my childhood favourites)

      On another note anyone recommend a good book on James Douglas ‘Black Douglas’. Cheers

    434. yesindyref2 says:

      Went to a si-fi convention at the Central in the mid 80s, loads of people dressed up (not me). Highlight for me was the wizard of speed and time

      but of course there was the participation event

      Lot of drink involved. I was going to go back dressed up the next year but met my wife instead.

      Well, she wasn’t my wife when I met her.

    435. Tinto Chiel says:

      @yesindyref: a mental wee film 😛

      Shoulda been “upper storeys” in my 9.46.

      Lines have been issued.

    436. Tinto Chiel says:

      Shinty: “The Black Douglases” by Michael Brown is interesting on the family as a whole.

      If you’re ever in the Douglas (Darkest Lanarkshire) area, a visit to the family tomb in the old St Bride’s church is worth doing. You get the key from a lady living in an adjacent street (Clyde Street?).

      I wouldn’t go in on your own, though, especially in midwinter.

      “Oi be afeared, oi be.”

    437. Shinty says:

      Many t hanks TC.

    438. Tinto Chiel says:

      I forgot to say, Shinty, it’s free to get in if you go on expedition but you need to phone ahead.

    439. Gary45% says:

      A wee bit light relief with all the shenanigans of the Empire.
      As Wee Tam “never ages” Cruise is promoting another Ethan Hunt film, it would be a good time for Mr Cruise to highlight the curse that is Prostate Cancer.
      Mibees even make a promo for it.

      “Pishin Impossible.”

    440. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      A wee bit more on Botanic Gardens Station.

      Came across some videos yesterday. I won’t post the individual video links; rather, I’ll post a link to my search, then you can select what you want to watch.

      Following on from that, I found these:-

    441. Smallaxe says:

      According to Fred, I should be ashamed of myself for playing a song that my wife likes, quote: “Smallaxe, I’ve been anticipating a whitewashed Lulu backing independence a la Connolly, but didn’t expect it from yourself.”

      As I have neither the energy nor the inclination to research the politics of every singer, songwriter or band member who’s songs I may play on O/T, I extend my heartfelt thanks and good wishes to all the good friends that I have been in contact with here, at marches and in my own home over the past few years.

      I hope to be around to meet some of you again when we gain our independence, until then, goodbye my friends.
      I wish you all Peace, Love and happiness, now and in the future.
      It’s been fun up until now.

      Fred, you can crawl up my arse and fling shite at yourself!

      “Messin’ With the Kid”

    442. Michael McCabe says:

      Hi there Smallaxe my friend. I would just like to say that I have enjoyed reading your posts and listening to the wide and varied music you have posted on Wings. And I have had the great pleasure of meeting you. If you ever want to get in touch the Thepnr has my email address and my phone number. Phone would be best as I hardly ever use email. Anyway all the best my friend. Peace and love always. ? ? ???????

    443. Fred says:

      Smallaxe, the Lulu thing was tongue in cheek, will leave it at that!

    444. Gary45% says:

      Hi Mr Smallaxe, hope is well, have a wee listen to James Kirby on you tube, you and I seem to have the same musical tastes, I think this guy is a gem of a musician.
      Check out his website

    445. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Smallaxe.

      I did think that Fred’s comment about Lulu was on the satirical side of the fence, albeit a tad ham-fisted.

      Sorry Fred.

    446. gus1940 says:

      Some of my favourite tracks:-

      Money Honey – Elvis Presley
      Razzle Dazzle – Bill Haley
      Blueberry Hill – Fats Domino
      In The Heat of The Night – Ray Charles
      You Came A Long Way From St. Louis – Peggy Lee/George Shearing
      I’m Coming Home Baby – Mel Torme
      Rock Me – BB King
      Sing Sing Sing – Benny Goodman
      Sunrise Serenade – Glen Miller
      Things Ain’t What They Used To Be – Duke Ellington
      All The Time In The World- Louis Armstrong
      Route 66 – Nat King Cole
      Unforgettable – Tony Bennett
      Take 5 – Dave Brubeck
      The Train And The River – Jimmy Giuffre
      The In Crowd – Ramsey Lewis
      Blue Monk – Thelonius Monk
      Bags Groove – Modern Jazz Quartet

      More to Come.

    447. Gary45% says:

      You forgot, Groovin with Mr Bloe, by Mr Bloe.
      My late father in law loved this, and got me into it.

    448. Gary45% says:

      What a Wonderful World-Joey Ramone.

    449. William Wallace says:

      /Folds arms, Blocks exit and stares at Sma

      “Whaur the bloody hell dae ya think your going? Back Inside.

      You ken fine well this is the quintessential “Hotel California”

      You can check out any time you like but, you can never leave.

      You are the beat that gives Aff- topic it’s heart. Withoot you – might as well close it doon. Ehm sure Fred never meant anything by it.

      Much love and respect tae ya brother – now get back inside. Nane o yir pish. Wir needing a DJ 🙂

    450. Cactus says:

      Out of many, one people.

    451. Macart says:

      You go away for a few days RnR …

      Smallaxe ma friend. Is it that time again? Be well brother.

    452. William Wallace says:

      Sorry Sma. I was being insensitive. I thought you were leaving because you were upset about what Fred had said. I meant the above post with the best of intentions. I understand that you might have to leave for your own reasons and promise to keep in touch through other channels.

      All the best for now.

    453. hackalumpoff says:

      Breaking news, the real deal

    454. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah feck it, Rev’s busy putting his computer together and I missed my chance from the National headline: “All eyes on Sturgeon as SNP figures call for indyref2 push” so yrtis

      Bring the action

      When your hear us in the club
      You gotta turn the shit up (x3)

      When we out of the club
      All eyes on us (x3)

      See the Tories in the club
      They watching us (x3)

      Everybody in the club
      All eyes on us (x3)

      I wanna scream and shout and let it all out
      And scream and shout and let it out


      You are now now rocking with
      Mike Russell and Nicola bitch

    455. Nana says:

      A wee heads up folks, did you know our Ian Brotherhood is an artist.

      A link

    456. Lucia Daines says:

      Just popping by to check you are all OK and the place is reasonably tidy…

      *glances around – shakes head*

      I think we should hang one of Ian’s artworks on the wall over there.

    457. hackalumpoff says:

      A hard Brexit is coming indeed..

    458. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      My life has been considerably brightened by a post from an insane American evangelist.
      “Girls who m*sturbate” he avers “are doing the devil’s work “The cl*toris” he continued “is not for pleasure. It is for procreation.”
      Used for personal satisfaction he insists it is “the devil’s doorknob”.
      This is an expression I will carry with me forever, particularly as I go knockng up people the next time I go canvassing

    459. Tinto Chiel says:

      I second that emulsion: happy birthday, Nana. Hope yon husband of yours is fluffing up your pillows.

      Forty can be a funny age, but.

      Where would Wings be without your links?

    460. Nana says:


      I’ll do my best to remain Forever Young, but have to say Brexit is taking it’s toll.

    461. Nana says:


      Forty was indeed a funny age 🙂

      I had thought someone would have brought me Independence for my birthday, maybe next year.

      On this St Andrew’s, let’s all show a little kindness. That would be a fine present indeed.

    462. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Happy Birthday Nana!

      “On this St Andrew’s, let’s all show a little kindness. That would be a fine present indeed.”

      A story from the Dundee Tully…


    463. Tinto Chiel says:

      Historical note: John Maclean, great fighter for Scottish independence, died on the morning of this day in 1923 (aged 44), his health weakened permanently by his treatment in prison.

    464. Nana says:

      Thanks Brian, that’s a really nice story to end the day with.

    465. Marie Clark says:

      Oh sorry I’m late, Happy birthday for yesterday Nana, hope you had a good one.

    466. Nana says:

      Thank you Marie. I did have a nice day, however maybe a little too much cake and chocs 🙂

      Had I known this was on, I’d have been there and I’m sure a lot of us Yessers would have too, had we known

      Maybe next year!

    467. Tinto Chiel says:

      This is for Macart and his bad back:


    468. Macart says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Hahahahaha. LOLZ 😀

      Cheers ma friend.

    469. Tinto Chiel says:


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