The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

The question begged

Posted on November 15, 2018 by

Only an idiot would try to write anything today about the epic mess currently unfolding in British politics. You’d barely get to the end of typing a sentence before events had rendered it obsolete. But there’s one thing we’d really like to know, which bewilderingly nobody is mentioning.

The primary root cause of Brexit was idiots complaining about immigration. The core supposed aim of leaving, no matter what anyone said, was to reduce the number of foreign people coming to live and work in the UK. The issue of immigration regularly topped polls of what voters were most concerned about, and a 2017 study showed it was the biggest factor in the Leave vote.

But yesterday the UK government, after two and a half years of quite spectacularly inept negotiation, produced for the approval of the electorate a Brexit deal which did precisely NOTHING about immigration, and nobody in the media even mentioned it.

Don’t get us wrong – we’re happy that the hatred of foreigners last seen from the No campaign in the independence referendum has apparently fallen off the news agenda. We couldn’t be more pleased. We just don’t understand why.

After all, it’s not as if the people who wanted Brexit suddenly LIKE foreigners.

And the proposed deal would mean no policed UK/EU land border in Ireland, which means that anyone from the EU could perfectly legally come to the Republic, stroll unchallenged across the border into the UK, and from there onto the mainland, since there was no proposed pseudo-border in the Irish Sea either. As an initial access route it sure beats clinging to the underside of a lorry all the way from Romania to Dover.

So the UK would have snarling dogs, barbed wire, minefields and riot police all over its front lawn (facing Calais, which the newly-departed Brexit minister recently discovered is in a foreign country across a sea), but would be leaving its back door unlocked, unguarded and swinging open in the breeze next to a 50-foot-high billboard saying “COME RIGHT IN, JOHNNY FOREIGN!”

(Although of course, as a concession to Brexiters and a demonstration of the government’s serious concern and joined-up policy-making, it’d be an incredibly racist one trying to make the would-be immigrants feel unwelcome, and the ports would be patrolled by Theresa May’s patented ImmiVans telling them to sod off again.)

And we’re just perplexed that nobody at all seems to be making any fuss about that. Because hardcore Brexiters and the UK’s right-wing press hating foreign people was just about the last thing in the world that we still regarded as a fixed point of certainty, and now there’s literally nothing happening in UK politics that we understand.

Print Friendly

    516 to “The question begged”

    1. shug says:

      best observation of the day

      The BBC and press are government controlled in the most part so they have been told to look away

      what are they up to??

    2. Luigi says:

      Just shows how tightly controlled the media is in the UK. British propaganda at its finest. It’s what they fail to cover that really betrays their mal intent. Not just the topic you mentioned. For two years, there has been a goldmine of real stories and honest debates to be covered by the BBC and the rest of the cabal. Sadly, all we got was tumbleweed. It was perceived as a risk to the “precious” union, and so no-one dared touch it. Yet whenever a minor slip (real or perceived) by the Scottish government was noticed, they were all over it like flies.

      British Nationalists dressed as journalists. That’s all they are.

      Freedom of the press – Aye Right.

    3. Dr Jim says:

      One minute they’re a swarm then they’re a migrant train caravan then they’re our friends and allies then back to a horde

      These Brits just can’t seem to make up their minds as to which foreigners they don’t like at any given time

      It’s the preciousness, I blame the preciousness of the Yoonyun

    4. bobajock says:

      As the latest Brexit mud hut gets rained on, we know theres only one way Scotland can go.

      They blamed migrants, like the USA (all migrants bar the real North Americans).

      Scotland needs migration, wants it, and amazingly will get it.

    5. Gary45% says:

      Listening to James O’Brien on LBC at the moment, stirring stuff when grown men are reduced to tears on the wireless.
      Its time the population stuck their heads above the parapet and called out Farage and co for their total incompetence on the disaster they have caused.

    6. Dr Jim says:

      Daily Records Tocuil Chrighton says Northern Ireland gets special treatment because of bad stuff thereby advocating Scotland bumps off a few folk and we get special treatment too?

      Put it on the front page Torky give everybody a giggle

    7. RyMc says:

      What a complete clusterfook.

    8. Cubby says:

      Rees- Mogg has just called the Maybot a liar without using the word. Britnats are all liars.

    9. Muscleguy says:

      From a legal standpoint an agreement which is said to be full of dense legal argument can fail to mention Scotland when it has to be compatible with Scots law.

      UNLESS Clive Ponting is absolutely right and they intend to use Henry VIII powers (note he did not rule Scotland) to ride roughshod over Devolution leaving our parliament neutered with virtually no powers and whole sections of the Law of Scotland taken and Anglicised without so much as a by-your-leave driving a coach and horses and several companies of dragoons across the Treaty of Union which expressly says we must be allowed our own legal system.

      Constitutional lawyers are of course free to disabuse me of this notion but normal UK acts of parliament and trade deals HAVE to deal with Scots Law to work. So how this deal can work in the face of Scots Law if it has NOTHING to say about it is beyond me unless the above.

      If I was not already Yes this would have done it. It needs pushing out there, big time.

      Time to start planning for UDI to save our parliament Nicola. I know you don’t want it and I don’t want it either but we are looking at a scenario where we have a choice: UDI or extinction. We must not go gentle into that good night.

    10. Robert Louis says:

      So, Mundell is NOT resigning. Nobody is at all surprised, he is a weasel of a man with zero integrity.

    11. Ottomanboi says:

      A constitutional crisis is looming. A diamond studdied opportunity to be exploited. The SNP must use its ‘energy’ to propel our country out of this vile England first relationship.

    12. fillofficer says:

      so the monied elites have played the masses to acquire offshore tax haven status
      aren’t they great at what they do
      we truly are stuffed

    13. TD says:

      Re illegal immigrants coming to the UK via Ireland, they can do that now. I have often wondered why they don’t and can only assume that it is a combination of economic factors (don’t have the fare to get to Ireland) and the enhanced security that already applies when travelling from the UK mainland to either the Irish Republic or Northern Ireland. Arguably, there is already a pseudo-border between Britain and Ireland – vehicles and people travelling between Loch Ryan and Larne or Belfast are subject to checks whereas people driving across the Irish border are not.

    14. Alan says:

      Several surveys over the summer/autumn seemed to show a shift in attitudes towards immigration, or at least a shifting of priorities.

    15. Haven’t read the document so I bow to those who have but there was a discussion about it last night to the effect that it would continue past March 29th but would cease in 2020 when the transition period ends. Still not what people apparently voted for by a longshot.

      Also there was a discussion a couple of days back that the some EU countries might not accept the deal because the ‘no border’ scenario in Ireland would make it easy for people, drugs and arms to infiltrate.

    16. Bob Mack says:

      The only person who does not know Mrs May is finished is Mrs May. Humiliation is too kind a word to use. Savaged from all sides including her own. Anybody with a shred of insight would have gone by now.

    17. Brian Powell says:

      I think the answer is because c.nts, total c.nts all.

    18. mogabee says:

      “It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma”

      Only one reason that immigration is not mentioned. It isn’t needed to scare the voters any more. They were caught, hook, line and sinker in the biggest lie of the ‘campaign’.

      Whole swathes of the public who believed that are now going to realise they were taken for mugs again.

      Fucking hell mend them…

    19. Bob Mack says:

      May has a conundrum,as does every Unionist politician at Westminster. When they ask for a people’s vote ,they open the door wide for another indy ref. They could not defend allowing one and denying another.

      A gordon knot right enough

    20. ScottishPsyche says:

      You have to be the right kind of ‘furriner’, don’t you?

      Torquil Crichton, Scotland’s political commentator for the hard of thinking, has spoken. If you follow Torquil’s logic, behaving nicely gets you nowhere so what is he advocating?

    21. Juan says:

      It’s time to terminate the Treaty of Union. It’s time Scots had democracy. Let normality reign.

    22. Luigi says:

      Logic doesn’t come into it. Those British nationalists dressed as journalists have nothing sensible to say, so they resort to complete nonsense. Sheer desperation. Madness. Surely, even they must realise the utter, transparent stupidity of their arguments. I don’t know why they bother. They have to continue to earn their 30 pieces of silver, I suppose. Can’t fault them for effort. 🙂

    23. Breeks says:

      FMQ’s is worth a watch.

      Nicola using the word “YES” like a cutlass.

      And the answer you were looking for Richard Leonard was “Yes”.

      Brilliant stuff.

    24. Cubby says:

      The Brexit deal called a Hotel California deal in HoC. You can check out but never leave.

      We need to check out of the UK, leave and never return.

    25. Artyhetty says:

      Brexit is a mahoosive con, how so many people can’t see that is just bizarre. The people have been politically neutered especially in England sorry to say. The brainwashing has worked, Dr.Strange starts his new job next March.

      Just heard someone say May’s ‘plan’ is a bit wooly but he sounded resigned and confident, how terrifying people who watch BBC etc are not going to be prepared at all.

    26. Ottomanboi says:

      Sturgeon and Blackford talk the talk, just, now we must have ‘passionate action’.
      Silence from Trophy Tory and Wunderkind Davidson. Plotting a Scottish Con. UDI? Ross Thomson after your job?

    27. Dormant says:

      I’m not sure if I agree with you here.

      The Irish route for “illegal immigrants” was always there but very few people seemed to have used it. Probably because Ireland, like the UK, was not in the Schengen Agreement, so there were passport controls between the EU and Ireland. That’s still going to be the case unless Ireland joins Schengen, which is incredibly unlikely as it would screw up free movement of people between UK and Ireland.

      Who’d have thought this Brexit business would turn out to be so complicated?

    28. call me dave says:

      Harvey coaxing the FM on the need for independence.

      Nicola says”no doubt about Scotland becoming independent”

      Wee Rennie…people have been cheated I want a people’s vote!

      But has no answer to Nicola’s question. What if the result is the same?

      No answer from Rennie but lots of waffle about pigs and pianos

      Not biting the Independence shiny thing. 🙂

    29. One_Scot says:

      Lol, Moggy has clearly had enough, his letter is in.

    30. Breeks says:

      Patrick Harvie is right on the money too.

      Theresa May’s Deal has nothing to offer Scotland.
      A no deal has nothing to offer Scotland.
      A no Brexit is blocked by Westminster’s intransigence.

      What outcome of the three that beckon will have any bearing on Scotland’s predicament? All three of them would drown us.

      It is time that we started calling the tune. The compromise jar is empty.

    31. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      According to the BBC report on Scottish Questions “SNP MSP Shona Michelin asks the Scottish government…..”

    32. galamcennalath says:

      Did the far right encourage anti immigrant feelings? Or, did the far right just latch onto it as something to encourage the gullible to vote Leave?

      Both. It is a positive feedback loop. Classic fascist stuff – blame the ‘other’, provide a beguilingly simple solution, entrap the masses.

      However, those key players for Brexit really don’t give a toss about immigration. It is a concern for some ordinary folks, but Brexit leaders don’t have ordinary folks’ opinions or well being in mind at all!

      The real driving forces of Brexit never included immigration. It is about increasing wealth for the few. And, making sure they keep the wealth they have already amassed off shore.

      Rhetorical question. Why are all key players in Brexit very rich people who have made the ill gotten gains in finance?

      So perhaps no surprise that immigration served its purpose in achieving a Leave win, after that there was no need to bother much about it.

    33. Bob Mack says:

      If I was a betting man,I would place everything I have on No deal.

      The EU will not abandon it’s commitment to Ireland and the North, whilst the UK has fallen victim to the DUP insistence on no difference.

      The UK is going to break asunder strangely enough through their efforts to keep it intact. How bizarre.

    34. Ottomanboi says:

      Mundell on Politics Live, protecting his fluffy, spineless, unionist rear.

    35. manandboy says:

      Raab & McVey quit. The escalator is moving.

    36. Hamish100 says:

      The EU immigration issue was always a diversion but to play with peoples worries. Under May as Home secretary she watched the rise of non-EU immigration to the UK. The tory racists and ukippers created this mess supported by the main news media infatuation with Farage via programmes like the BBC’s Question Time.

      ot- Mundell isnt resigning. What a wimp what a sad display of opportunism with the tory cronies over fishing.

    37. Bobp says:

      Muscleguy 11.47am. I agree wboleheartedly with your post.Its not the perfect scenario, but personally speaking i think the SG should now resign and call a snap Scottish general election, with UDI as their mandate. Then the Scottish people can make their democratic choice for independence at the ballot box. I’m sick to the back teeth of Scotland being humiliated by these westminster scum.

    38. manandboy says:

      David Mundell, probably Scotland’s most despicable individual.
      Mind you, he does have competition, from other members of the two big Unionist & British Nationalist Parties, Conservative and Labour.

    39. Stravaiger says:

      Brexit was never about immigration. That was just the sales pitch.

      I’ll be amazed if the ‘deal’ gets a majority in the Commons so my money’s still on no deal.

      I’m undecided whether TM is playing the can-kicking game or is genuinely trying to ameliorate the effects of Brexit. Doesn’t matter much either way as I’m thinking the pack is stacked in the ERG’s favour.

    40. Ottomanboi

      Nicola has said she will update the Indy case after the HoC vote on the proposed Brexit Deal

      Mundell says he will not resign and calls those who do ‘carpet-baggers’

    41. Robert Louis says:

      Bobp at 1256,

      Hard to believe, but the Scottish Govenrment cannot choose to call an election. I think their needs to be a motion of no confidence in the gov first – which I guess the SNP themselves could call, but it needs I think two thirds majority. I’m not sure, but perhaps others can fill in the details.

    42. Petra says:

      We’re getting there. Be patient folks. We’ve waited for over 300 years for this. Not long to go now.

    43. galamcennalath says:

      Something else on which the media is being very quiet.

      Over the last two years there has been endless focus on the future EU trading arrangements.

      Both politicians and media gave the impression that was central to the divorce talks. Some even made the ridiculous claim that a trade deal would have been settled by now.

      From what I can gather, we know nothing more about what the future trade deal will be now than we did two years ago! The trade framework document says nothing of consequence, to me it just sounds like the same wish lists we’ve been seeing all along.


      This is what a Blind Brexit looks like!

    44. One_Scot says:

      Lol, Moggy is about to go public on the steps of Parliament.

    45. One_Scot says:

      The knives are sharpening behind Maybot, but she carries on regardless. Lol.

    46. Proud Cybernat says:


      Laura Kuenssberg
      14 minutes ago

      Boris Johnson has just arrived at ERG meeting – feels very much like this is on and letters from Brexiteers about to go in en masse

    47. Dr Jim says:

      The FM gives out doings at FMQs

    48. Dr Jim says:

      Lesley Riddoch puts Grandmaster Clegg and Toodle ooh the Noo in their place

    49. Macart says:

      Yup! Utter boorach out there today. Yes, I am petty enough to indulge in some schadenfreude. Watching Tories (of all persuasions) tearing into each other to see who gets the fiddle whilst their house burns down does bring out a grim smile.

      They’ve earned it and all that goes with it.

      And no. No the racists haven’t gone away. Their voice has simply been quieted down a bit. Their shameful campaign glossed over. I suppose some will be stupid enough to remain loud and draw some attention. Those who manufactured their narrative and lashed them into a lather? They’ll quietly slink back under their rock and hope no one notices them as the poop hits the proverbial.

      Don’t think even the darkest of crevices will be hidey hole enough this time round. (shrugs) Their choice.

    50. One_Scot says:

      Man, I’m scared to make a cup of tea in case I miss anything.

    51. Luigi says:

      Meg merrilees says:

      15 November, 2018 at 1:03 pm

      Ye Gods, looks like Boris might be the next PM

      Yes, Please Please Please Please. 🙂

    52. Bill Hume says:

      I know the feeling One Scot. I’ve run out of popcorn. I wonder how quickly I could make a run to the co-op?

    53. Robert Louis says:

      How ridiculous. The Prime Minister is in the House of Commons defending her actions, whilst literally outside the same building, the ‘men in grey suits’ are getting ready to have her removed.

      Will nobody in the house tell her??

    54. Ottomanboi says:

      @Meg merrilees
      Good…Scotland expects lightning bolts from Nicola.
      Mundell not resigning to protect the Union is an ‘honourable’ posture. ‘Honourable’ in the Rees-Mogg sense re Mrs May….’and Brutus is an honourable man’.

    55. Robert Louis says:

      Bill Hume,

      If you nip out to the shops, you just know an election will be called. The same thing happens to REV STU when he goes on one of his bear hunting walks around Baths parks.

    56. manandboy says:

      Worth saying twice, fed up with Tory ‘fakespeak’?, then listen to Guy Verhofstadt.

      “While I hope one day the UK will return, in the meantime this agreement will make a #Brexit possible, while maintaining a close relationship between the EU and UK, a protection of citizens rights and the avoidance of a hard Irish border.”

    57. Ghillie says:

      Nicola Sturgeon knew exactly what she was doing when she declared that it was necessary to wait until we could see what the final brexit deal would look like.

      We may yet have some time to wait until that is truly clear.

      The one thing truly clear to me is that our First Minister and her team will know the very best moment to call the Independence Referendum.


    58. Mundell said that N. Ireland was given 150 pages of the 500 in the draft proposal – scotland mentioned zero times.

      Says it all really –

      mind you Fluffy did say some time ago that Scotland was no longer a ‘partner but is now a part of the UK’ and don;t forget, through the Sewel convention, the Tories have given themselves the right to make decisions for Scotland as these are not ‘normal’ times.

      This is what we are fighting – the tories think they have taken back control of Scotland and that Holyrood is just a regional council.

      deep down there is a bit of them that remembers something about an Act of Union and Scots law being given respect but they think everyone else is ignorant.

      Why just this morning I heard someone talking about the four nations of the UK…. that old chestnut

    59. Jack Murphy says:

      The Scottish Parliament.


      TODAY from Broadcasting Scotland on YouTube.

      Just scroll to 22:24

    60. manandboy says:

      Robert Peston on twitter

      “Tory Brexiters become angrier and angrier as they wade through 585 pages of the Withdrawal Agreement. “This is a worse capitulation than we feared” said one.
      They tell me there will be enough letters in with Brady of ‘22 C’ttee by lunch tomorrow to force vote of confidence!”

      Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.. We all know what happens next.

    61. Robert Louis says:

      The man with the stop brexit signs at westminster (and who keeps moving to stay in shot) getting on all the live broadcasts is an absolute star.

    62. call me dave says:

      Oh! 13 Tories in Scotland got to see the agreement yesterday it seems. Just like Gibraltar did.

      @Robert Louis

      Strange isn’t it 🙂 But really… she knows you know.

      At the end of the plank and got to jump or be put to the sword.

      Moggy and Johnston round the cauldron now incantations being made.

      double double toil & trouble. 🙁

      Mogg mentions the European court of justice and Scotland in his resignation letter.

    63. geeo says:


      Why would Scotsgov want to do such a stupid thing like you suggest ?

      We have a cast iron mandate to hold an indyref.

      From the PEOPLE and from the PARLIAMENT.

      We also have in place, the means to declare the Union as breached by WM actions, and as a result, if an indyref is attempted to be delayed/refused by WM, a simple motion to dissolve the Union, with a caveat to ask the Sovereign people of Scotland to either affirm the political dissolution or seek to renew a treaty with WM on more favourable terms, which works for Scotland.

      That is not UDI, as that does not apply to Scotland, for good reason.

      UDI…impossible for Scotland.

      To have UDI is to admit Scotland is a REGION looking to ‘break away from a greater ‘state’ or country.

      We are neither and nor should we ever wish to be.

      We are looking to DISSOLVE the Union (and since the Uk is a union of Scotland and England ONLY, we would also be dissolving the United Kingdom).

      We can dissolve the Union in 2 clear ways now.

      1. By referendum, agreed by Section 30 legally binding WM to the result, although, legally, due to a referendum being the ultimate expression of Scots Sovereign will, ANY referendum of Sovereign Scots, is legally binding, with or without a Section 30.

      All a Section 30 actually does, is gives WM a say in the referendum debate.

      2. By dissolving the Union at Holyrood.

      A simple motion to dissolve the Union (and uk) presented to Holyrood and voted on by simple majority.

      We of course, have the numbers to carry such a motion.

      There are 2 scenarios which lead to s dissolution motion.

      1. Scots law is subjugated on issues where it has legal primacy.

      For example, on Devolved competences.

      Like say, the EU Continuity Bill, which makes legal claim to those 111 returning powers from the EU upon leaving.

      All 111 powers fall under devolved competences, and the Devolution (Scotland) Act is EXPLICIT when it says…


      That means, that Scotsgov cannot lose the Supreme Court case currently awaiting resolution.

      If the SC makes a POLITICAL decision and sides with the WM gov, they will, by their own legal incompetence, have illegally amended the Act and Treaties of Union, which STATES that Scots Law is protected “in perpetuity” (forever).

      Ruling with WM would be a legal judgement that the terms of the Act and Treaties of Union have been completely changed and Scots Law has been allowed to be SUBJUGATED by WM.

      That is a fatal breach of the Act and Treaties of Union, and actually ENDS the Union before Holyrood does !

      If the SC makes the only legally competent judgement and finds with Scotsgov, then not only do ALL 111 powers come directly to Holyrood, ALL Negotiation on stuff like, access to Scottish fisherides by the EU fleet must be negotiated BY HOLYROOD and the EU.

      WM would have zero authority to intervene as ALL Fishing in Scotland would be devolved.

      Imagine that impact on the WM / EU brexit trade deal ??

      Brexit brings me nicely onto point 2.

      2. Brexit for Scots is SUBJUGATION of the Setted will of the legally Sovereign Scots People.

      Despite claims, you cannot have a “uk wide vote” AND Scots People’s Sovereignty.

      As Sovereign power, Scots people expressed by 62% – 38%, a desire to remain IN the EU.

      If Scots are then removed from the EU by weight of Non Scots votes, then the Sovereign will of the Sovereign Scots People has been SUBJUGATED by WM.

      And again, that is contrary to the Act and Treaties of Union, and is therefore a fatal breach and requires just a simple dissolution vote at Holyrood to end the Union.

      Now, there is one more aspect to all of this.

      Because Scots are Sovereign, and dissolution motion would be required to be caveated by a pledge to hold a plebiscite (referendum) AFTER the political dissolution, to uphold that vote at Holyrood.

      However, the Dissolution motion WILL END the Union, so the Question put to the people would be rather different to 2014, and look more like this….

      “Do you, the Sovereign People of Scotland…

      A. wish to confirm the political vote at Holyrood to dissolve the Union with England.

      B. seek to instruct Scotsgov to enter into a new Union with WM on terms acceptable to the people of Scotland ?

      Option B would probably require a WM referendum of English voters to agree to “having Scotland back” and on better terms (for Scotland) than we Scots previously had.

      Now THAT would be some hard WM sell….after hundreds of years of calling Scots “subsidy junkies” .

      So, there you go, UDI is a non starter, we have MUCH BETTER options available to us should WM try deny us a referendum when we demand it, on OUR TERMS.

    64. gus1940 says:

      Nicola on fire at FMQs – compare her sheer ability with the MAYbot.

      Incidentally I have never liked the carpet in the chamber – How about a nice blue one to match the Saltire?

    65. gus1940 says:

      I wish people would stop talking about declaring UDI – it would be a disaster.

      Reason – Control of the money:-

      Pensions, most benefits and the likes of Heating Allowance are all paid from WM They would cut these off in a flash if we declared UDI.

      Similarly with tax:-

      How do you get people to pay their Self Assessment Income Tax to Holyrood?

      How do you stop employers sending Tax, NI and VAT to HMRC?

      And that’s just for starters as we would need indigenous computer systems to handle all of the above.

    66. manandboy says:

      The EU negotiations were conducted on the UK side exclusively by Tory representatives. The Scottish government was emphatically rejected and excluded from the negotiations. This is the result. The Tories DO NOT REPRESENT SCOTLAND – THEY SUPPRESS SCOTLAND. ALWAYS & IN EVERYTHING.

      From Ming Kerr:

      “Looked through the (legalese) draft withdrawal agreement:
      Let’s keep things simple.

      Word counts.

      Scotland occurs: 0 times
      Wales: 0
      Whisky: 0
      Isle of Man: 1
      Akrotiri: 1
      England: 3
      Gibraltar: 27
      Fish: 28
      NI/Ireland: 141 times

      Akrotiri more important than Scotland…?
      Aye, OK…”

    67. Craig P says:

      galamcennalath says:
      15 November, 2018 at 12:40 pm

      Rhetorical question. Why are all key players in Brexit very rich people who have made the ill gotten gains in finance?

      I was speaking to a Brexiteer (who dislikes foreigners of course) who told me that Brexit would ‘make our politicians accountable to ordinary people again.’

      I wished him luck with that and suggested it was more likely they’ll be led by their noses by leaders of the finance industry, as already happens.

      The tone of his reply suggests that riots may ensue once it finally dawns on the slow but entitled consciences of ordinary English Brexiteers they’ve been sold a crock of shit.

    68. Clydebuilt says:

      The hatred of foreigners whipped buy the tabloids has served it’s purpose, winning the Brexit vote.

      So can be dropped now. . . . Job done!

    69. call me dave says:

      Mogg on sky news live now.

    70. Auld Rock says:

      Maybe the hate for foreigners has diminished as they have found themselves in longer and longer queues at their Local GP’s Surgery or the Local Hospitals as I believe that there are more than 46,000 vacancies in English/Welsh NHS. Not that we in Scotland are not suffering from Westminster’s crazy policies.

      I believe the ‘End Game’ is very, very close just be patient a little longer as Westminster is not going over a cliff-edge it is about to be consumed in a ‘Black Hole’.

    71. slaterhat says:

      As you point out Stuart, brexiteers have no idea what they stand for. That is unless they are led around by the nose ring by a controlled and cancerous British press and media.

      That Labour did/could not oppose this complete unplanned and fantasy shambles speaks volumes. That they could not put this malignant, self-serving right wing tory party to the sword is even more telling.

      The only party which has maintained credibility, consistency and has stood up for Scotland is the SNP.

      Do you think Mundell and Davidson will show any integrity or strength, follow their earlier promises and actually resign?

    72. Sharny Dubs says:

      It’s beginning to look a lot like christmas 🙂

    73. donnywho says:

      Wow you definitely know that things are not ging well from a unionist point of view.

      Yesterday the BBC online had Nicola’s response to the Brexit papers… a three minute clip (one of the largest she is ever had), unfortunately the sound has a technical failure that lasted all day. Oops what can a multi-billion propaganda arm do!

      Today i had a quick foray into frothing Union/Proud/But/Land… The Scotsman comments section. I really wanted to see how they would square the circle… Ireland, Fishing and all. Guess what it is completely closed down, all at Zero comments. This is a Large Unionist mouthpiece running away whilst proudly ramming their fingers in their ears and shrieking Rule Britannia.

      Strong and Stable

    74. frogesque says:

      Back from wallies with the dug. Anyone left in the Cabinet? I see Smog is mouthing off something inconherrant as well.

      Bugger this for a lark, I’m off out again. Chuffin’ dug’s gonna be knacked!

    75. K1 says:

      It would seem we are witnessing an attempt at a right wing coup of the UK gov in progress…


    76. Welsh Sion says:

      Guardian features Really-Smugg speech with accompanying advert for slippers:

      “Now with sneaker sole [sic]”

      – Shurely shome mishtake?
      – No, no mistake. [Ed.]

    77. Capella says:

      Strange glitch in parliamenttv. I was listening attentively to the debate in Westminster but when Vince Cable began to mention the possibility of Parliament revoking Article 50 the line went dead.

      So I checked the recorded version and at 11.07 Vince Cable’s question is cut off just at the point where he mentions parliament revoking Article 50.

      Who deletes sections of the debate in parliament?

      See at 11:07:14 on the timeline:

    78. Another Union Dividend says:

      @ gus1940 says: 15 November, 2018 at 1:35 pm

      I wish people would stop talking about declaring UDI – it would be a disaster.

      Spot on the tax avoidance in Scotland is bad enough as it is.

      A few well off Tory yoons I know relish in telling me that since they have transferred their occupational pension scheme into an investment portfolio they are paying no income tax whatsoever to the Scottish government even although their income is well above £12,500.

    79. Bob Mack says:

      Very clear the Tories are not going for an election. They want to change leader who will have a Brexiteer outlook.
      This increases no deal scenario. They get back power to Westminster ,whilst everybody pays in jobs and service reduction. It was ever so.

      Scotland mentioned in Rees Mogg no confidence letter, and that is the story. Why would he mention gifts to the SNP?

      The answer is of course what we all know. We are the money that allows them to survive to negotiate deals around the world.
      Westminster parasites cannot live without the blood of another host. Hopefully Nicola has this in hand.

    80. Robbo says:

      Stu sincerely hope your ‘Wee Blue book’ is updated and ready to go. Feel many thousand orders will be coming your way very soon now.

    81. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 13:00,

      You’re right, we were relentlessly assured by the lying Brexiteers that a trade deal would be “simples” and part of the exit agreement, but that was never going to happen.

      People who are genuine experts in this field, like Prof Michael Dougan of Liverpool Uni, made that clear a long time ago, but nobody paid much attention at the time, it seems.

      Exit is essentially about the terms of separation. There will have to be trade talks ongoing over several years thereafter.

      Bored by Brexit, dear reader? It’s still only starting!

    82. Maolbeatha says:

      donnywho says:

      15 November, 2018 at 1:59 pm

      Wow you definitely know that things are not ging well from a unionist point of view.

      Yesterday the BBC online had Nicola’s response to the Brexit papers… a three minute clip (one of the largest she is ever had), unfortunately the sound has a technical failure that lasted all day. Oops what can a multi-billion propaganda arm do!

      Today i had a quick foray into frothing Union/Proud/But/Land… The Scotsman comments section. I really wanted to see how they would square the circle… Ireland, Fishing and all. Guess what it is completely closed down, all at Zero comments. This is a Large Unionist mouthpiece running away whilst proudly ramming their fingers in their ears and shrieking Rule Britannia.

      Strong and Stable

      I Did something similar and they all keep going back to the same thing. Education, crime and health.
      Now I thought we were doing better in these areas. So what information are they using to claim the SG are failing in these areas?
      It is hard to see it from their point of view, that we are better off sticking with a regime that has proven time and time and time again it has no interest in doing the best for Scotland.
      I cannot get my head around it.
      What is wrong with these people? That’s not rhetorical I would like to understand.

      What next? Who the hell knows.
      The pressure on the FM to call the next referendum asap must be massive.
      Fair play to her for sticking to her plan and calling it once the details are known.
      UDI I reckon is a non starter as it would only work with a large vocal backing from the majority of the people before hand.
      The same for dissolution because of breaching the treaties of union. Genuine and justified as they may be.
      I can only see it being accepted through a referendum.
      That worries me a lot as I thought we had to have section 30 authority granted to us by Westminster, which has to be voted on by parliament.
      I just cannot see any reason why they would ever agree to that.
      I hope for all our sakes I am wrong on the last bit.

    83. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 15 November, 2018 at 12:27 pm:

      ” … Sturgeon and Blackford talk the talk, just, now we must have ‘passionate action’.”

      Define, “Passionate Action”, Ottomanboi?

      Tell us what, “Passionate Action”, YOU propose to take, Ottomanboi. In fact tell us what, “Passionate Action”, you have personally carried out so far.

      Far as I know no one in the SG, or in the SNP, has said anyone should desist from taking, “Passionate Action”, but that, of course, depends upon what you define as, “Passionate”, action.

      It ranges all the way from well planned and well actioned political strategy to illegally importing Kalashnikovs.

      What was it YOU had in mind and are you advocating such, “Passionate Action”, be carried out by others or by yourself?

      Nicola Sturgeon is the First Minister of Scotland. Under Scots law that means she is chosen by the majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland as their representative. That is ALL the people of Scotland and not just the people of Scotland who are supporters of Scottish Independence.

      Now just why are such as you here on Wings droning on constantly that Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish Government and the SNP are sitting comfortably colluding with the Unionists and not doing anything?

      Of that lot, Nicola, The SG and the SNP, only the SNP have the right to openly act 100% for independence. The FM and the SG are legally committed to the people, all the people, of Scotland – and they are doing a damned fine job of doing so.

      Hasty, inappropriate and ill though out, “Passionate Action”, could set back, or end for all time, Scottish independence. Not to mention getting people killed.

    84. Macart says:

      Pound falls against dollar…. again. Down 1.52%


    85. HandandShrimp says:

      I have given up trying to make sense of the Tory Brexit farce

    86. Ottomanboi says:

      Even if Brexit were to be stopped, as many wish, the EU having wasted over two years dealing with the issue would demand greater ‘communautaire’ attitudes from the British. A return to the easy ride, status quo ante would not be an option. The EU is toughening up on member state consolidation especially regarding the influence of the US and foreign policy generally.
      That Anglo-American ‘special relationship’ could be called into question.

    87. Valerie says:

      Christ on a cracker, peeps.

      Have you ever seen such outstanding hypocrisy, brass necked, arse covering such as that from Tories imploding?

      Mundell, a bag carrier, says he will take no lessons from a carpet bagger (Raab).

      Carlaw has the bloody nerve to try and shout SNP bad over Brexit?

      Red Tory Dick debased himself yet again (Nicola set it up well) by denying Scotland should have control over Benefits.

      Mogg naming his preferred puppets for PM. Davies, Johnson, Raab.

      Watch out for the red Tory tactic of saying SNP support violence in NI,,because Scotgov says Scotland should have same rights relating to CU & SM.

      Other crap which is prevalent is that if we can’t untangle a 40 year trading relationship, we can’t untangle a 300 year one! Honest, read it a few times now.

      The trolls have to take what’s on offer, and mould it.

    88. Dan Huil says:

      Great fun watching England implode. We must take advantage of England’s mess. Stick the boot in, hard!

    89. galamcennalath says:

      JK Rowling … “This is a crisis. The country has the right to speak again. We need a #PeoplesVote.”

      No! THIS country needs IndyRef2 so we can “speak again”!

    90. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Calm down dude….a wee glass of Sanatogen ought to do the trick LOL.
      Politics without passion is like warm, flat champagne at a party….sickeningly depressing.

    91. Valerie says:

      @ Macart

      FTSE is down 0.50% due to shares being sold in “exposed” industries, such as house building etc.

      I think there there are still Scots out there though, muttering “Glad I voted No in 2014”.

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bobp says: 15 November, 2018 at 12:56 pm:

      ” … but personally speaking i think the SG should now resign and call a snap Scottish general election, with UDI as their mandate.”

      Utter claptrap, Bobp. It is not possible for a legally sovereign people to declare a UDI.

      If they are legally sovereign, and they are, their collective word is law.

      Thus if the majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland choose a government they thus delegate their legal sovereignty to that government.

      If that government had a promise of ending the union with the Kingdom of England then that government has the mandate of the sovereign people to end a Treaty of Union that has many times been broken by their equally sovereign partners in the union treaty and that is not a definition of UDI.

    93. Petra says:

      @ Capella says at 2:06 pm … ”Strange glitch in parliamenttv. I was listening attentively to the debate in Westminster but when Vince Cable began to mention the possibility of Parliament revoking Article 50 the line went dead. So I checked the recorded version and at 11.07 Vince Cable’s question is cut off just at the point where he mentions parliament revoking Article 50. Who deletes sections of the debate in parliament?
      See at 11:07:14 on the timeline:”


      I see that Capella. I wonder what he was going to say next?

      Also worth listening to Stewart Hosie on there (9:36am) getting into Foxy’s ribs and Neil Gray (12:16pm) asking Big T about the Scottish Tories getting a preview of the deal.

    94. Petra says:

      C’mon Wingers let’s get right behind Boris.

      Boris for PM, we say Boris for PM!

      Go Boris Go. Or rather go Theresa go and give Boris a shot at dissolving the Union.

    95. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ottomanboi @ 14:44:

      the EU having wasted over two years dealing with the issue

      Hmmm, your phrasing could possibly have been better. I assume what you really meant was that the UKGov has been wasting vast amounts of everyone’s time (and our patience) on the issue.

      Not to mention you wasting our time and patience with all your “passionate” pseudo-revolutionary AP dross. This is Scotland 2018 not Russia 1918.

      (Meanwhile, back in the real – if wacky – world, the UKGov continues to fall apart… )

    96. Nana says:

      In response to @NeilGrayMP ‘s question, PM seems to confirm that Scottish Tory backbenchers saw the withdrawal deal BEFORE it was shared with the Scottish Government.

      The PM’s deal is a turkey which breaches all of her red lines including on #CJEU. One almost feels sorry for her except the contempt she has shown for Scotland’s Government, Parliament & people is unforgivable

    97. Legerwood says:

      Mundell calling Raab a carpetbagger. Think Mundell has the wrong term there.

      A carpetbagger is the derogatory term for a candidate who stands for election in a constituency in which they have no connection whatsoever, someone parachuted in to a safe seat who has no connection to the constituency.

      What a useless shower. They can’t even get their insults right!

    98. geeo says:

      @ottomanboi @2.44pm

      Actually, the case just sent to the ECJ for clarification on can Article 50 be unilaterally revoked by WM parliament, includes the question, can it be revoked WITHOUT PENALTY.

    99. galamcennalath says:

      ” Six possible scenarios in light of Theresa May’s Brexit deal “

      Reading through this, none seem probable, some just seem less improbable than others!

      May might survive no confidence and she might get her plan through WM. However, there is no escaping the issue that what she proposes is too hard for many MPs, and too soft for another smaller group. Which leaves most MPs likely to vote simply on party lines. Outcomes are a bit unpredictable.

      Grass roots Tories what it harder and would replace May by one of the far right group. But does that help things in WM? If this plan is rejected because it is too hard, why would a hard leader change that?

      I really do which I liked popcorn!

    100. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Legalism is the curse of politics, particularly in Scotland, it beats down, strangles and asphyxiates initiative, imagination and audacity. When the opposition makes the rules and often breaks them we can duly ignore the ‘correct way’, sovereign or not. Lawyers should stick to draughting constitutions.

    101. Luigi says:

      Valerie says:

      15 November, 2018 at 2:54 pm

      I think there there are still Scots out there though, muttering “Glad I voted No in 2014”.

      Indeed, but the number of those “proud scots” in denial will continue to drop as things unfold and the pain begins to really bite. The trickle will eventually become a flood, but we ain’t (quite) there yet.

      After all, to maintain that level of self-delusion and denial must be utterly soul destroying. A hard core of BritNats will never change, but we don’t need them anyway.

    102. Nana says:

      Why do we always have to wait to see what someone else is going to do?

    103. Capella says:

      @ Petra 2:58 – Vince Cable (11.07) was about to say that “this house” i.e. Parliament could revoke Article 50 – which is what attracted my interest and then disappointment that the line suddenly dropped.

      Stuart Hosie (9:36) scores a palpable hit. Neil Grey (on at 13:16) makes an excellent point about respect but TM supercilious as ever.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m a bit surprised at this article, frankly.

      There IS a plan, and it’s been quite obvious for some time to those with irons in the fire. It’s no coincidence that Angela Merkel will be stepping down, and that British citizenship has been granted to her. Nor that Macron has become so close. Meanwhile Pedro Sánchez has been remarkably quiet about Gibraltar, and Alexis Tsipras has been studying economics 101.

      The conclusion is obvious. Merkel for Prime Minister, Macron for Foreign Secretary, Sánchez for Defence Secretary and Tsipras for Chancellor, in the EU-appointed emergency UK Government cabinet.

      Hence the silence on immigration.

      You read it here first.

    105. Nana says:

      TM press conference 5pm

    106. manandboy says:

      More resignations at Westminster. Escalator still working.
      Waiting for May.

    107. Nana says:

      Michael Gove will ONLY become Theresa May’s Brexit Secretary if he can renegotiate her deal and the November 25 EU summit is scrapped.

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      @call me dave
      Seems to me Harvie and Sturgeon have been doing a double act for quite a long time. Harvie can say what Sturgeon can’t.

    109. Thepnr says:

      Unless we hear today that the 1922 committee have enough votes to call for a leadership election then it is unlikely to happen before she is defeated in the HoC on a vote on the Withdrawal Act. I very much doubt that she would step down voluntarily just like Mundell.

      If she does lose the meaningful vote then she goes and it will be weeks before we know who the new leader of the Tory party might be.

      Taking recess into account we will be into January by then and no matter who the new leader is we will be in a “Zugzwang” situation and unable to make a move that doesn’t worsen the position the government find themselves in.

      That leaves only a request to the EU for an extension to the Article 50 deadline to get out of the mess or possibly a vote to unilaterally revoke Article 50 if the ruling on that comes in time from the ECJ and it finds that the UK can unilaterally revoke it.

      None of this leads to General Election or a Peoples Vote, just stalemate and it’s only after parliament becomes totally incapable of functioning that we could have a vote of no confidence in the government. For the Tories to be defeated it will need more then 100 of them to vote against their own government.

      Might be a tall order but by then the people and the media I expect will be clamouring for it.

      Maybe better ask Santa for more Popcorn for Xmas and get your stocks in now, I hear there could be shortages in future.

    110. Dr Jim says:

      *Mounting fears Michael Gove will quit the government*

      Who’s afraid then? who did they ask? I’m not afraid

    111. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert J sutherland
      The Brit gov is one hopes breaking down, have our leaders the political willpower to take advantage of the situation? Craig Murray has referred to the essentially revolutionary, ie upsetting the status quo, nature of the Scottish independence movement and the unfortunate overcaution exhibited by some of those in charge. I await with interest future developments.

    112. Bob Mack says:

      Jolyn Maugham QC, just tweeted that Supreme Court have refused a hearing to government lawyers re Article 50. They may read the submission at their convenience instead. The case to ECJ goes ahead on 27th Nov as listed.

    113. yesindyref2 says:

      I’d be very wary by the way, about this leadership challenge. Wouldn’t surprise me if May wins, puts the Brexiteers into disarray and abject humiliation, holds a vote on cancelling Brexit – and wins. Possibly her gameplan all along.

    114. call me dave says:


      Think so too.

      O/T O/T
      Chess link for the WC Game 5. I’ve been following

      You might need a couple of matchsticks to keep eyes open.. 🙂 🙂

    115. Hackalumpoff says:

      Word of the day prize goes to ThePNR fpr “Zugzwang”

    116. Thepnr says:


      Haha I was at one time a very average chess player in Scotland 🙂

    117. Cubby says:

      Britnat heads exploding all over the UK. An awfy mess to clean up.

      Britnats putting on a great comedy show for the world.

    118. Robert Mitchell says:

      The distinguished East German conductor Kurt Sanderling, who travelled on a Soviet passport, was due to conduct some concerts in London at a time when the UK government was unhappy with the Soviets. At Heathrow he was refused entry, so he boarded a plane to Dublin and made his way to London from there.

    119. Luigi says:

      Ottomanboi says:

      15 November, 2018 at 3:50 pm

      @Robert J sutherland
      The Brit gov is one hopes breaking down, have our leaders the political willpower to take advantage of the situation? Craig Murray has referred to the essentially revolutionary, ie upsetting the status quo, nature of the Scottish independence movement and the unfortunate overcaution exhibited by some of those in charge. I await with interest future developments.

      Still trying to bait us into going too early eh? Don’t waste your time – ain’t going to happen. Two points:

      1. Never interrupt your enemies when they are destroying each other.

      2. It’s coming soon enough – relax and enjoy the show. 🙂

    120. Golfnut says:

      @Dr Jim.

      Who exactly is the unfortunate Fears.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      Legalism is the curse of politics, particularly in Scotland

      It’s called the Rule of Law: “the principle that all people and institutions are subject to and accountable to law that is fairly applied and enforced; the principle of government by law.”


      If you want to do that, go ahead and get rightly arrested. In Scotland we have the Rule of Law.

    122. desimond says:


      Fair question but I think the SNP going for the “We stated ‘significant change’ and well there it is…no ifs no buts…we now move forward after what YOU did!”
      Quick check on last Manifesto:

      Hold a second independence referendum “at the end of the Brexit process”

      Secure a mandate for Scotland having a choice on its future when the terms of Brexit are clear

      The Manifesto Brexit pointers make for depressing ( as in totally ignored by WM and Mundell!) reading:

      Demand a place for Scotland at the Brexit negotiating table

      Demand the inclusion of the case for Scotland’s place in the Single Market in the UK’s negotiating remit

      Secure a reinforcement of the existing mandate for Scotland having a choice on its future when the terms of Brexit are clear

      Press the UK government to immediately protect the right of NHS staff from across Europe to live and work in Scotland and the UK

      Oppose any attempt by the UK government to treat the fishing industry as a bargaining chip in the Brexit negotiations

      Demand the scrapping or fundamental reform of the Common Fisheries Policy

      Ensure that the rights and protections currently safeguarded by EU membership are not diminished after the UK leaves

      Seek a cast-iron guarantee from the UK government that they will seek the consent of the Scottish Parliament to the terms of the Brexit Bill

      Oppose any attempts by the UK government to scrap the Human Rights Act and withdraw the UK from the ECHR

      Demand urgent clarity on long-term funding arrangements for farming and fishing after the UK leaves the EU

      Powers repatriated from Brussels to the UK should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament in devolved areas such as environmental protection

      Call on the UK government to stay part of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) to avoid delays in new medicines becoming available in the UK

      Press the UK government to ensure continuity in cross-border health insurance arrangements – including the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC)

      Continue to work with Scotland’s universities and institutions to seek clarity from the UK government on what will replace EU research funding programmes

      Support the continuation of programmes like ERASMUS+, which allow students to seamlessly travel to Europe for study

      Seek to ensure that any future trade deals secure geographical indications for key Scottish food and drink products like Scotch Whisky, Arbroath smokies and Stornoway black pudding

      Press the UK government to ensure border checks are as seamless as possible after the UK leaves the EU, making it as easy as possible for international tourists to visit Scotland.

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      Quite significant, Carwyn Jones and Nicola Sturgeon joint letter calling for a meeting of the JMC to discuss details of the Withdrawal Agreement. It’s all happening 🙂

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      I’d say watch carefully for what Sturgeon does nect. If anyone thinks she’s not fully prepared for this, I have a bridge to sell you.

    125. Macart says:

      @Nana and Valerie

      It’s not going to stop there. It’s got a lot farther to fall.


      Ayup! 😎

    126. marsfries says:

      I get the frustrations of some that Sturgeon is still holding off with firing the starting pistol for the next referendum. Whether it’s the draft deal or no deal at all, it’s not what Scots voted for in 2016, so in that sense the final outcome of this mess is immaterial, so it’s easy to think, what is she still waiting for when it’s clear that we’ll never ever get a deal that respects our wishes? I guess, it’s the “from the perspective of the remaining fencesitters, she must be seen to have explored and exhausted all available avenues” argument but I am hoping that when NS and the top strategists in the Scot Govt are ready to pounce that the gloves really come off this time and they deliver a knockout blow.

      The news from the Supreme Court case are promising.

      Re May and the no confidence vote: 48-50 letters is comparatively easy to accomplish but then getting 158 MPs of your own party to vote to take her down is another, and at this stage I think it’s too tall an order for Rees-Mogg and co. Even so, she still won’t have the votes to get the draft deal passed, while the EU has told the Brexiteers that the draft deal is IT and they can get stuffed, so it looks like stalemate until 29 March and the UK leaves with no deal.

      I’ll reluctantly give Rees-Mogg this much credit: he is a snake but at least he is upfront about wanting WTO terms and not trying to square a circle like May does.

    127. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Sterling performance from Mike Russell in the Scottish Parliament this afternoon but no mention at all on BBC Scotland online

    128. Nana says:


      I know, the SNP are going through the motions making sure all is done correctly, I’m just feeling anxious and a wee bit stressed.

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      Cheer up Nana, won’t be long now 🙂

    130. Nana says:

      Swedish EU-minister: if the British parliament votes down the Brexit deal (“very possible”), there will be no deal; the EU is unwilling to renegotiate and this is also the Swedish position.

    131. Robert Kerr says:

      Watched FMQ and learned what a “Gammon” looks like.

      Jackson Carlaw!

      What an odious creature he is.

    132. Yesindyref 2

      Nicola and Carwyn Jones have demanded a meeting with T May next week to have devolved matters feature a input to the deal

    133. Robert Louis says:

      Sick of all this politics, I’m off to watch a bit of telly….

    134. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      I’d be very wary by the way, about this leadership challenge. Wouldn’t surprise me if May wins …

      ” How is the winner picked?

      A ballot of Tory MPs is held in which the candidate with the least support drops off the list. This process is repeated until just two candidates remain. Candidates who realise they do not command enough support to get on the ballot may also take the decision to withdraw from the race.

      Once two candidates have been selected by MPs, the Conservative Party’s 150,000 members will get a vote to choose the winner.”

      It is perhaps less about May, and more about who MPs put forward to run against her. Of course she might not even stand!

      I suspect the party members want a far right figure, like Johnson. However, MPs might not offer that to them! MPs could chose a moderate (in Tory terms) to replace her, or someone destined to fail!

      If they were democratic then STV among all members might be appropriate. However, their system is open to MPs playing silly buggers.

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      What we have boys and girls, we have ourselves a situation. For the first time really, Westminster and the UK establishment have their hands full, overfull, with themselves, and have no time to think of Scotland, or Ireland. Arlene Foster was a useful tool, but has been put down in their self-interest and forgotten about. She’s spittin’. Meanwhile for now, and perhaps for one or two weeks, it’s PARTY TIME

    136. O/T
      I notice a tweet showing the Downing Street cat standing in front of a cat sized lectern outside no.10, declining to be the next Brexit Secretary has 7,000+ people talking about it.

      More than any other tweet on the current situation which are all hovering around the hundreds mark…

      Seems the British people might be sensible after all!

    137. Valerie says:

      QT from Milford Haven tonight. Gammon will be served.

      No SNP as usual.

    138. galamcennalath says:

      Something else not being mentioned.

      Assessments said ‘Norway’ would cost ~£20b per annum, ‘Canada’ ~£60b, No Deal ~£80b. (From memory)

      What are the estimates for this deal, assuming the ‘temporary’ customs arrangements end up becoming the ‘permanent’ future trade arrangements?

    139. Welsh Sion says:

      Varie @ 5:21pm

      QT from Milford Haven tonight. Gammon will be served.
      No SNP as usual.


      – No, no-one from my ‘other’ Party. But the Westminster Leader of my ‘other, other’ Party, Plaid Cymru, Liz Saville Roberts (and great friend of London SNP) WILL BE!

    140. Welsh Sion says:

      Sorry, ‘Valerie’. Shoot the typist – I’ve had a long day of politics AND translating 4 different documents today!

    141. Lenny Hartley says:

      Think Maybot is a bit confused as to what she has agreed with Europe ??????

    142. Lenny Hartley says:

      Think Maybot is a bit confused as to what she has agreed with Europe ???

    143. Liz g says:

      Whit exactly was the point of this news conference?
      Even the journalists were waiting for the next sentence!

    144. Macart says:

      May hanging on then.


    145. gus1940 says:

      Just look at the Butcher’s Aprons behind the Maybot.

      They couldn’t do a better job of hiding the Saltire part of the rag.

    146. Nana says:

      Nothing has changed!

      They will have to drag her out with her nails scratching through the floor.

    147. Macart says:


      Didn’t you say you’d deliver this, but are offering that instead.

      Answers another question entirely.

      Oh Jings! 😮

    148. Cubby says:

      Sky poll showed 32% want a NO DEAL Brexit. A load of bampots in the UK.

      Only 14% want Mays deal.

      Mays theme tune should be The Beautiful Souths. Carry on Regardless.

      Only Independence can deliver us from this Britnat madness.

    149. Robert Louis says:

      Jeezo. Is the Prime Minister mentally ill? Can she not accept reality anymore? Seriously, she is deluded, totally in denial. Not only is she repeatedly making claims for the ‘deal’ which are demonstrably false, but she keeps saying she will do what is best for the country. All evidence shows that staying in the EU is what is best for the country.

      Maybe they’ll have to literally drag her out of number 10, while she screams ‘strong and steady, strong and steady’.

      Nobody in her party supports here, so she is turning into a one woman autocracy. Doing what SHE wants.

      She should go now, for heavens sake, instead of being forced out. Totally in denial.

    150. yesindyref2 says:

      Just got it now on Sky News, very much so with the St George’s cross.

      She’s certainly very shaky, knackered I think.

      But she’s no shrinking violet, and what she could do, though I forget who’s actually in her Government now, is have a major shuffle, THAT would set Larry the Cat amongst the pigeons, miaouw.

    151. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Short summary of the ongoing press conference, May ducks and dives on every single piercing question, and simply reiterates: “It’s my way or the highway”.

      (And in effect challenges the Tory Party as to whom they think will be taking the highway.)

    152. Robert Louis says:

      Totally pointless press conference by the way. What a waste of time. Wouldn’t be surprised if journalists started walking out and going home. She’s just repeating the same slogans verbatim over and over.

      What a mess England has become.

    153. Breeks says:

      ”You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!”

    154. Thepnr says:

      What a way to end the press conference.

      Theresa’s got the runs LOL

    155. jfngw says:

      Am I brave enough to watch Rep Scot tonight, they are probably in lockdown at this minute. I’m expecting 30 minutes of coverage designed to protect the Tories and Ruth Davidson, either that or a technical fault and 30 minutes of God Save the Queen.

    156. Ottomanboi says:

      If the SNP has a strategy that it intends to roll out very soon I would be ecstatic.
      However, the classic Scots habit of seizing defeat from the jaws of opportunity haunts our politics.
      The British state is a mortal enemy of any attempt to damage its territorial integrity. Are we up to the wiles, tricks, threats and devices it will use to confound any such attempt?
      If the legalistic, constitutionalist wee Scotch lawyer mentality manifested by many, particularly of pensionable age, prevails this game will be over by level one.
      Scotland has been marginalised. The SNP leadership must now force Scotland’s case into centre stage front. That will take some real drive and chutzpah.

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Louis
      Don’t know about that, apparently it’s a “British” trait to support the underdog, she’s definitely that now she managed to precipitate the Rees-Mogg camp into its no confidence attmept, and she might get more support than we’d think possible, from the ordinary punter. And the ordinary Tory members and MPs.

      Remember when she got the leadership, the media were saying she’d appointed hostile ministers to fail? Well, in a lot of ways, they’ve done that, resigned or sacked, and she too might be working to a master plan.

    158. jfngw says:

      There is no prospect of May resigning, she will need to be dragged out screaming. Remember all the disasters when she was home secretary, just goes into submarine mode. Some think she is doggedly determined, I think not, she is just a autocrat that believes she is never wrong.

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      If the SNP abstained of course, or even voted for something (at a price), that would change things completely. Just saying, like 😎

    160. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      May piously (and frankly incredibly) claimed to be “doing the right thing for the country and not working for party interest”, but when challenged afterwards by a reporter whether doing what she preached wouldn’t risk splitting her party asunder, in classic politico-speak she answered a quite different unasked question instead.

      It’s ironic really. Cameron thought he could get the voters to finally lance the 40-year-long festering boil of Europhobia in the Tory Party, and instead enough disgruntled diddies bought the Brexitcon and sunk him.

      Now his forlorn successor may be presiding over the breakup of their party over the issue. =boo hoo= Even if she will never admit it.

      (Oh, and where is the wee Scottish corporal and much-touted “successor-in-waiting” at this critical juncture, just when she’s needed…? =grin=)

    161. yesindyref2 says:

      There you go:

      “But with Mordaunt going in is there some kind of Brexiteer effort to get the PM to budge and they all stay? We are trying right now to make sense of it on the #bbcnews6”

      And so say all of us for once!

    162. ScottishPsyche says:

      Has someone put LSD in the water at Westminster?

      Are they all sleep deprived or something? Theresa May just spouted utter made up gibberish there. Is she repeating her wishful thoughts hoping it will come true? It is ‘strong and stable’ all over again.

      On Radio 5 live, Rory Stewart just made the most outrageous claim that 80% of the British people supported the deal and when challenged he had to admit he had made it up. WTF? He must have thought he was being interviewed on Reporting Scotland!

      The FM on fire at FMQs today, really good comebacks and genuine anger at the Tory shambles.

    163. Peter Macbeastie says:

      All I find myself wondering from the coverage today, because it did have all the hallmarks of a car crash well in advance of today (lots of damage, no real idea what happened, and it’ll take a wee while to work out what’s coming next) is this.

      How the fuck is Nigel Farage still the fucking go to guy for pro Leave interviews?

      He’s getting wads of credit for producing the Brexit result but I seriously doubt how much impact he had. Years, decades of ‘drip, drip’ bad EU with no real way, or need to dispute it if I’m honest, it was just accepted (except for the real loony shite like straight bananas being banned) without much question.

      So Farage, the spiv prick, is dining off a lot of undeserved glory while ensuring he can stay put in the EU.

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      Tell you one thing though, Laura Kuenssberg is one to watch, she’s really maturing in the job and is I guess, the top BBC correspendent.

    165. Ken500 says:

      Now people in the UK realise what Brexit will be like. They don’t want it but the Tories continue on with their imbecile plans. They are beyond comprehension. They are doing the opposite of what the people want and acting against the public interest. Westminster unionists are a complete bunch of total embarrassing absolute psycho bastard, They are beyond. They caused the the increased migration into Europe. They bombed the Middle East for years causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. The EU countries have to pick up the pieces costing £Billions.

      Bush and Blair and the rest were warned what would happen. They still went ahead. The illegal wars based on lies. The banking fraud based on lie, the tax evasion based on lies. Lie after lie after lie.

      The Brexit scandal based on lies. The Scottish/world economy ruined with the lies.

      The Westminster lying sychophants and their associates. Every word they utter is a lie. Sanctioning and starving folk. They are beyond redemption. Along with the lying Press. Owned by tax evading non Doms.

    166. Breeks says:

      ScottishPsyche says:
      15 November, 2018 at 6:08 pm
      Has someone put LSD in the water at Westminster.

      …On Radio 5 live, Rory Stewart just made the most outrageous claim that 80% of the British people supported the deal and when challenged he had to admit he had made it up. WTF? He must have thought he was being interviewed on Reporting Scotland!

      Was that Rory the Tory? Ha ha ha! I heard somebody getting totally skewered, but I didn’t know it was him. That’s almost as funny as Ross Thomson demanding Fluffy resigns.

    167. Nana says:


      yes it was Rory, we Scots know him for the liar he is

    168. ronnie anderson says:

      The Weasel Mundell hiz his winter coat oan he’s now ah Stoat , same animal different colour .

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, anyone detect a bit of a sea change at the BBC re Scotland? I’ve been picking up wee signs of it for a few days / weeks. But then I am an eternal optimist.

    170. Cubby says:


      I know what you are saying but it would be stupid to trust the treacherous and lying Tories. They would not honour any deal. They could not be trusted.

      6.11pm I think you have forgotten L. kuensberg is a Britnat anti Scottish propagandist and I do not share your admiration. I agree with most of your posts and some are very amusing but every so often ???????

    171. One_Scot says:

      ‘Rory the Tory’ – Was that the slimeball portrayed as an average member of the public who was given a free reign to produce a programme for the BBC telling us how great the union was before the 2014 Independence referendum.

    172. Thepnr says:

      I doubt if many that have been reading Wings are that surprised we are we are today. This was always inevitable and has only one possible ultimate ending.

      Scotland will become an Independent country so who cares now what May has to say about Brexit. She’s on her way out the door and all we need care about is what Nicola Sturgeon has to say.

      Keep calm for now, she’ll lay her hand on the table and show what’s she’s got when we are ready and not before. You might all have to sit tight for now. Have a bit of faith for a while longer yet.

    173. JLT says:

      This whole charade has still got far more twists and turns to come, but yep …those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad …and by god, are they frothing at the bit in some quarters?!

      Even watching Theresa’s press conference tonight, once again, no mention at all of Scotland, nor the contradictory stance of Northern Ireland more or less being allowed to say in the EU even though Scotland had a greater Remain vote.

      In the draft agreement last night, we have Gibraltar mentioned a number of times; the Channel Islands; Northern Ireland …but Scotland? Hee-haw. Nada. Nowt.

      For Theresa to say that she has worked in the ‘best interests‘ of the British people is a complete lie. She has ignored Scotland time and again, and is determinedly enforcing England’s will on the Scottish people – ‘what England votes for …you get too, irrespective of how you voted or how you feel’. Scotland, more and more, resembles a colonial outpost than an equal member of the Union. There is no sense of equality between Scotland and England. What echoes of it that did once exist in the 19th Century is lonnnnnnnng gone.

      I would bet serious money now, that there is a fair percentage of Soft No’s at the moment who have a wee voice whispering in their head about the idea of independence. More than half of Scotland is bemused at the antics of Westminster and especially its attitude towards Scotland. As a few forums are saying …at what point after being continually ignored or held in utter contempt do you finally say ‘that’s it …enough!’. Well, I think we are starting to see that right across the Scottish nation.

    174. yesindyref2 says:

      Specualtive Cubby, we can always live in hope.

      Carlaw just got a bit of hostile interviewing, Brexit and the Tory shambles may be changing the bias. It would be a game-changer.

    175. Daisy Walker says:

      The Maybot is doing, and has been doing, exactly what she is supposed to, keep kicking the can down the road, until ‘no deal’ is the only outcome.

      A Tory Party leadership contest will burn up another month of time. Think its very likely.

      Then a cross party ’emergency’ government to deal with the fall out of no deal. This will dilute the blame from the tories – red and blue – for a few years down the road.

      kind regards to all

    176. Nana says:

      Brexit: EU leaders dismiss talk of renegotiating draft agreement

      New North Sea discovery hailed by Oil and Gas UK

    177. Meindevon says:


      Not sure about LKs change of heart. But if that is the case it is to be welcomed.

      What I do know is she been in London for five minutes and her Scots accent is all but gone.

    178. Thepnr says:

      The next stage now is of course to get the agreement of the EU27 at the emergency summit planned for 25th November.

      I think we can take that as a given but there will likely be caveats. It’s this deal or No deal, there will not be any extension to Article 50. If parliament fails to approve this deal then the UK is out without a deal.

      I think this is a given as surely the idea is to put as much pressure as possible on parliament as they can. They’ve got everything they want and what they surely don’t want if for negotiations to go on beyond Mar 29th 2019.

      It will be the last bluff of Brexit but it will fail and parliament will still reject the current deal on the table.

      They’re all so transparent that you can see right through them.

    179. Cubby says:

      The Maybot Brexit deal would leave Scotland as a colony of a vassal state of the EU. A lot of people would find this humiliating and unacceptable. Not so Scottish Britnats. In fact Scottish Tory Britnats are promoting this situation.

      If this is acceptable to ordinary Scottish Britnats then the evidence of Stockholm syndrome couldn’t be clearer. They will accept any beating and humiliation meted out by their captors. Doomed to a life of subservience, bowing, boot licking and forelock tugging. Hopefully after independence they can receive appropriate treatment to get better.

    180. Referendum1707 says:

      Cubby 6.27

      Every so often that yesindyref bends over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt to scumbags and sociopaths.

    181. Thepnr says:


      That’s where we are heading now, the EU trying to support May to win the vote in parliament. Won’t work.

    182. Nicola is approaching the Rubicon,

      the quest for Independence stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little, and it will fail, to the ruin of all,

    183. Meindevon says:

      Is it just me or has Sinn Fein been awful quiet recently? Should they not be jumping up and down maybe demanding a referendum on a united Ireland? Seems weird. Or is the media just not covering them like they do the snp?

    184. Cubby says:


      No problem being optimistic re the BBC but I don’t see it happening ever. Not seen anything come of the meeting D. Hook had with the BBC Scotland some time ago. No announcement from the BBC of any changes or even an action plan to consider changes.

      I think I’ll stick with the thoughts I have always had – Scotland would have been independent a long long time ago if it were not for the propaganda media in Scotland that is owned by foreigners (illegal in Norway).

    185. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 6.27


    186. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Cubby at 5:40 pm.

      You typed,
      “Mays theme tune should be The Beautiful Souths. Carry on Regardless.”

      That immediately reminded me of a clip from one of the classic British films of the black and white era. (Which reminds me that when my son was around 5, watching a b/w film on TV, I told him that the film had been made in the days before colour was invented. The planet was shades of black, white and gray in those days. When he got to around 11, out of the blue he accused me of lying about a b/w world and told me that it was colour film that had been invented, not ‘colour’.)

      Stanley is May at her later statement this evening. Kenneth Williams does the translation, which could be an analogy of where the UK is now. From “Carry On Regardless”. (Clip is 1 min 15 secs.)

    187. Ian Foulds says:

      Ghillie above and no doubt others,

      Dissolve the Union is a good rallying call.

      Can heads be put together to realise it?

      If Mr. R. P. has not already commented above – I am about to scroll back up to check, I am sure he will tell me in his abrupt way that it is baloney or some such word/phrase.


    188. Bob Mack says:

      The great Japanese warrior ,poet. and philosopher Miyamato Misashi said. ” The sec4ret to victory is knowing your enemies timing and when to use it against them”

      Nicola shows just these traits.

    189. Ian Foulds says:

      Nice one Mr. R. P. at 2.32pm

    190. Cubby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon@7.17pm

      Brian brilliant video. Your a star. The closing scene is just like the UK cabinet going about its business wrecking the UK.

    191. cearc says:

      Nana, ‘New North Sea discovery hailed by Oil and Gas UK

      Whit? More of the damn stuff, Oh, woe is us, how will we manage?

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      I wouldn’t put it just like that, but yes!

      Thing is that the BBC shot its bolt with its treatment of Corbyn, and while it can get away with it with Indy and the SNP, a lot more people, and outside Scotland, became aware of its bias. Also perhaps its Farage fandango. So if it wants to survive in the UK, never mind Scotland, it has to change its spots. Enter stage south, LauraK who therefore needs to be straight and neutral, which should be every TV news person’s reason for being. And if she’s ambitious, and clearly she is, then she needs to be seen to be neutral.

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      Thanks, it’s not just me then!

    193. starlaw says:

      Saw an interesting interview with Billy Connolly on BBC news tonight Jackie Bird was doing the interview about Billy’s artistic talents and his health. Without warning she veered on to politics asking him his view on Brexit and indy ref2. The Big yin quickly put her in her place telling her that he had been wrongly accused of things before and that he had no interest in politics but however his daughters on watching Brexit develop were now leaning towards independence.

      That shut her up.

    194. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Eh, starlaw. That’s the way I read that ‘interview’.

    195. Petra says:

      @ Nana at 6:37pm ……. “Mair oil.”

      And a 50% increase in oil exploration bids since 2016. Amazing how the BBC has this data online but we don’t hear a dickybird about it on BBC Reporting Scotland or STV news. They are doing a grand job on behalf of the Union, as most, if not all, no voters I speak to say that we have no oil now …. “It’s dried up”, lol. Roll on Independence if for no other reason than to “out” the blackguards. And we all know who they are. Yes the day of reckoning is now looming for them, folks. Oooooooooh!


      I’m beginning to wonder if the EU has “manoeuvred” this deal in such a way as to bring about the breakup of the Union?

    196. Ken500 says:

      Six Sinn Fein representatives can to London to meet various people regarding Brexit, May refused to meet them.

      The British Press just erase them out. Same as they do the SNP. They don’t exist. The Lies the Press have told is appalling.

      There were reports if migrants stay in the UK for a consecutive? five years. They obtain citizenship. There are many obstacles to fairness or equality. They can be made jobless or homeless after 4years+ deliberately. They are chucking out people who have stayed here for 50+ years. Charging children born in Britain up to £1000 for citizenship. Just despicable.

      England is the second most populated country in Europe. That is as a result of Westminster policy. Including illegally and secretly taking the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland to fund London S/E. Then keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Scotland population has stagnated since 1928 and before because funds which could have grown the Scottish economy were spend expanding London S/E.

      Other EU countries put in measures to limit migration. Consistent with EU rules. The Tories have lied about migration numbers. Included foreign students who return to their own countries, They have under estimated the people who have retired abroad etc. Those who have taken citizenship in other (EU) countries to pay less tax.

      Now the mugrants are going leaving unfilled essential vacancies. There is no mention of the falling numbers. No crowing. The disastrous catastrophe impending to implode. The Tory/unionists are now running scared because of what they have done.

    197. Thepnr says:

      Can anybody put up a link to that clip of the interview between the Bird and the Big Yin?

    198. Craig Murray says:

      Gus1940 @1.35pm

      Please understand, they are paying us out of our own money we send to them. There is no fund for state pensions etc, they are paid from current taxation. If we stop sending them our money, we won’t need them to so graciously give the odd pittance back to us.

    199. Ken500 says:

      Many people would like to see Sinn Fein walking into Westminster and bringing the Tories down. Poetic justice. Mind the way things are going they would not need to. They have their principles.

      The DUP are in the minority in NI. 200,000 votes. Pop 1.8million.

    200. ronnie anderson says:

      Starlaw and if you had been listening Connelly also said he didn’t believe in Independence .

    201. TheItalianJob says:

      @Ronnie Anderson at 8.09pm

      That’s what Billy did indeed say. He said words to tho effect “I don’t go/believe in Independence for Scotland although my young daughters do”.

    202. Colin Alexander says:

      If anyone thinks all the EU nationals that voted NO are just aching to back Scottish independence this time around, you are dreaming.

      The vast majority didn’t give a fig about Scottish indy then and I doubt the majority would give a fig now. The ONLY interest for many is money. UK or Scotland means nothing to them, as long as the money is in their pockets, which is completely understandable, so I don’t blame them.

      Given the choice between an indefinite transitional arrangement and an indy Scotland with no transitional arrangement and out of the single market, then I believe most would again vote NO to remain part of the UK.

      So, I don’t see the EU nationals vote to be strongly YES. Of course, I’d love to be proved wrong, if someone can give me figures that indicate otherwise.

      Anyone, that hasn’t been mainly resident in Scotland for the last six years at least, should not have the vote anyway, whether Scottish, English, EU or anything else.

      If there’s a general election, it must be contested on an indy ticket.

      Nothing else, but indy:

      If 30 SNP MPs are elected this will be a democratic mandate for a declaration of Scotland’s independence.

    203. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      Your making a lot of presumptions and assumptions to create a narrative in your own head

      Do you do that a lot? Someone with your skill set could be a Tory candidate.

    204. One_Scot says:

      Colin I don’t usually read your posts, but I accidentally read your last one. Man you are full of shit.

    205. Phil says:

      Ottomanboi says: 15 November, 2018 at 5:52 pm

      ” … particularly of pensionable age…”

      Hey Otto, away with that stuff! All, from the young to us oldies, are wanting and waiting for independence – with a good measure of marching and canvassing as well.

    206. Thepnr says:

      @Craig Murray

      I think Gus at 1:35 pm was talking more of how would you collect the money due in tax in a Scotland that had declared UDI rather than anything to do with who was due to pay it.

      So how would you do that without the systems in place and how long would it take to get those systems in place against the plans of a hostile Westminster government after a UDI?

      These are questions I’d prefer we never needed to find the answer to. When all the people of Scotland decide that it is time for them to become Independent then they will do.

    207. Ottomanboi says:

      Another case of Mundellitis…the inability to grasp when it is high time to ‘honourably’ resign.

    208. Thepnr says:

      The BBC are undoubtedly the mouth of the Tory party. The institute has been hijacked and taken over in order to brainwash the public around to their way of thinking.

      Ignore them, switch off and save yourselves some money by not paying the telly tax.

    209. Ottomanboi says:

      Yay…go for it…i salute you!
      The BIG DAY is coming fir aa that!

    210. Thepnr says:

      Liam Fox, yeah him that said a free trade deal with the EU would be the “easiest in history” is still in the cabinet.

      His job as the Secretary of State for International Trade means it his his responsibility to jet around the world talking gobshite with other gobshites in order to get free trade deals with the rest of the world.

      Something that is now IMPOSSIBLE while the UK remains indefinitely in the EU Customs Union and is what Theresa may wants the UK to sign up to.

      So ask yourself this, just why is it he is still in this job?

    211. Legerwood says:

      Meindevon says:
      15 November, 2018 at 7:08 pm
      “”Is it just me or has Sinn Fein been awful quiet recently? Should they not be jumping up and down maybe demanding a referendum on a united Ireland? Seems weird. Or is the media just not covering them like they do the snp?””

      Same thought occurred to me when I was watching the report from Belfast on Channel 4 news tonight. Why was no one from Sinn Fein being interviewed?

      Clearly they are being written out of things and Storming being non-operational removes an obvious platform for them to get their voices heard. However, as with the SG in Scotland, things are going their way slowly but surely.

    212. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      Suggested reading list
      1. Contribution of EEA nationals to Scotland Nov 2017. Published by Scottish government. All the info you need.!!!

    213. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 15 November, 2018 at 2:54 pm:

      ” … Calm down dude….a wee glass of Sanatogen ought to do the trick LOL.”

      Whatever strange notion makes you imagine I am not calm, Ottomanboi?

      I never get upset at anything whatsoever involving politics. In politics, as in most other things, it is best to keep a clear head and to remember that when debating with your political opponents it is rather like revenge, it is best served cold.

      ” … Politics without passion is like warm, flat champagne at a party….sickeningly depressing.”

      And, like any form of alcohol, cold, warm sparkling or flat, it dulls the senses and befuddles the mind of the imbiber. I have not indulged in alcohol since 28 May 1970.

      I’m just sick to my back teeth with the growing number of numpties here on Wings who imagine themselves as better judges of the political situation than our First Minister and her many experience MEPs, MPs and MSPs. Not to mention the many SNP party workers and the SG & SNP legal teams.

      It seems to me that there is a concerted effort by certain left wing factions, such as the SSP, to do as they have always done, – disrupt anything and everyone and that includes there own faction – who will, because of such manufactured friction, never ever gain or hold power anywhere in Scotland. Only one party is capable of gaining for Scotland her independence and that is the SNP.

      Best leave the disruptive element to fight among themselves and ignore them. I’m really fed-up with the negativity that is increasingly evident here on Wings and always by the same faction.

      I am already commenting less often and if their intention is to achieve such a result then they will be pleased their negativity is getting them their desired results.

      The may even achieve their aim of taking over Wings and killing it stone dead. So there you go – get on with discouraging Wingers as you do it so well. I’m certainly discouraged – but not by the FM, the SG or the SNP.

    214. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ronnie , its a while since i saw the interview, but my recollection of it was that the big Yin said he has always been against Independence but he didnt know what to think now. He certainly did not say that he was for Indy but he didnt say he was still againgst it. He did say that his daughters were for it so maybe thats why he wasnt mouthing off his normal platitudes towards Indy supporters.

    215. laukat says:

      There seems to be a lot of talk about a ‘people’s vote’ but I think the events of the last 24 hours mean that ship has sailed.

      The deal May has presented clearly cannot get throught parliament. If she cannot get the deal through parliament then its impossible to see how she can continue. That in turns mean a new leader and all this takes time.

      By my calcultaions we are looking at early December for her deal to go to parliament and get knocked back. You then have a leadership election meaning no government until early January. Late January is the earliest a new government could propose to parliament for a new referendum. If the legislation was passed that takes you to late March for the vote. All the Brexiteers have to do is delay any or all of these steps and by default we leave on the 29th March

      No deal Brexit looks like the only possible outcome.

    216. Lenny Hartley says:

      Legerwood Re SF. Possibily adhering to the principle of never interrupting your enemy when they are making mistakes.

    217. manandboy says:

      Without a single mention in the 585 page Withdrawal Agreement, Scotland might easily be offended at this remarkable omission, were it not for the fact that we’re well used to it.
      But it is a reminder, that while Westminster and England is big to us, we are very small indeed in their eyes. Except for oil, gas & renewable energy worth £trillions.

      Scotland is to Westminster, what Devon is to Scotland.

    218. Thepnr says:

      Michael Gove, the fisherman’s friend was co-convener of Vote Leave along with Boris Johnson fighting resolutely for a hard Brexit.

      Again he has let the fishermen down, so why hasn’t he gone from the cabinet too and done the honourable thing by resigning? Because like Fox, Davidson and Mundell he’s a worm and in it purely for himself.

      All of them too are Scottish, how fucking embarrassing is that?

    219. mike cassidy says:

      Dimbleby’s Gammon Time should be fun tonight!

    220. Cubby says:

      Jackie meets Billy banana feet.

      I always record Reporting Scotland as I do not like watching it live. Mainly because if I feel my levels of disgust rising to dangerous levels I can stop it and watch it later. I can also fast forward through the swimming hedgehog crap that makes up a good chunk of this programme.

      Two of the people I believe have rubbished (in their own unique way) Scots and Scotland for decades were to appear together in the same report. The possibility of boalking was always high and they did not disappoint. For clarity banana feet confirmed he had never been for independence and still was not for independence. He said ” I didn’t say it would lead me to support independence” he then prattled on about Brexit and how it was promised that voting no was the way to stay in the EU. He says his daughter and her friends are drawn towards independence.

      He finishes with a rambling

      “I don’t know how I feel about independence”
      ” I’ve never been for independence”
      “So I don’t really know how I feel about independence.”

      The cynic in me says he was using Scottish independence to sell his book. I won’t be buying his book. His drawings looked like a lot of rubbish. I make no apology for saying neither of them will ever be people I have any respect for.

      It was just another Britnat chatshow.

    221. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      Too many on here live in a fantasy world of thinking that the UK Govt will magically respect Scottish democracy if the Scot Govt declares indyref2.

      It’s the Wingsworld fantasy bubble. At least Stu earns a nice living from giving a forum to allow the perpetuating of that myth and good luck to him.

      The reality is that the UK Govt has nothing but utter contempt for the Scot Govt, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. An SNP declaration of indyref2 will be treated with the same contempt. The NO vote of 2014 99.999% guaranteed that.

      The UK Govt will from start to finish refuse to recognise an unofficial indyref. I don’t think councils will boycott it though, as their Chief Executives etc pocket polling money. A nice big earner.

      As for the UN being Scotland’s saviours if an unofficial Scot Govt indyref were to be held and a majority voted Yes. Tell that to many countries around the world where democracy and freedom are just words, despite the UN’s noble aspirations.

      The UK Govt are the ones with their feet firmly under the table at the UN.

    222. Golfnut says:


      Tax doesn’t need to be handed over on a daily or weekly basis, monthly or indeed even annually.

      Tax doesn’t actually pay for anything. The Government, if they have there own bank, simply creates cash. It’s created as debt on a computer. The bank issues that money to the various departments, pensions, social security, defence etc, etc.

      What you do need is ready cash in the system, i.e. the banks, for those who don’t pay for things by card or online banking. The tax eventually collected would be used to pay back the dept, or actually cancel the debt. Tax, NI, Corporation tax is actually paid by computer transfer from company accounts from money that only exists as digits on a balance sheet.

      Money to pay the bill’s isn’t a problem for Scotland, we are floating on it, and make no mistake investors and banks, even governments will be lining up to throw money at Scotland.

      So, collecting tax isn’t the immediate problem, its getting the money to where its needed. We already have the systems in place for the SNHS, Police and all the services covered under devolution,I’m not sure if the social security systems are ready to roll or if pensions are covered, if not the problem is how we get the money to them.

    223. Collie says:

      What brilliant memories I have of when Billy Connolly first came on the scene, but then he goes and spoils it all with his support for the Union.

      Billy, like so many others, has blotted his copy book and will never look upon him again as a fighter for the working classes.

      He turned out to be just another BritNat blinded by the bright lights of London.

      And as far as I can remember he was always slagging the good people of the Highlands’ and Islands of Scotland.

      He always saw them as some kind of embarrassment.

    224. Breeks says:

      Nana says:
      15 November, 2018 at 6:23 pm

      yes it was Rory, we Scots know him for the liar he is

      First came to my attention with his “Auld Acquaintance” hands across the border nonsense back in 2014. It was ostensibly a cairn built by mass participation with stone from all over the UK, but the truth is most of it was brought in bulk in a tipper truck and built by a contractor. Typical Unionist con job, and so was the monument.

    225. Thepnr says:


      I appreciate the reply but without any income how do you pay for things? You think others will be rushing to flood a newly created UDI Scottish Governments treasury with cash hahaha.

      Well that is never going to happen while we are still in a dispute with Westminster, do you not believe that Westminster would act exactly the same as the Spanish government have done and jail political leaders in Scotland and ignore the remaining ones?

      We’d end up buying loafs of bread with banknote piles that were bigger that the loaf. A modern economy can’t function that way without major problems. The fact is that right now we don’t even have a facility to print our own notes.

      Lets forget all that crap and focus on winning Independence through the will of a majority of people in Scotland being expressed with a simple vote in a referendum. It will save a lot of potential heartache from happening in the future.

    226. Capella says:

      @ laukat – if the CJEU deems that Parliament can revoke Article 50, then revoking article 50 through a vote in Parliament is also a possible outcome – something that the Westminster Government and media do not want to publicise for some reason.

      See edited Vince Cable question to PM at 11:07:14 into the debate in the Commons today. Bit abut Article 50 cut.

    227. HYUFD says:

      Net EU migration to the UK has fallen by 75,000 in the last year to its lowest level for 5 years anyway as a result of the Brexit vote

    228. manandboy says:

      While Theresa May continues to resolutely ignore Scotland, David Mundell, in answer to a question about him resigning, replied:
      “As someone who has stood steadfastly for keeping Scotland in the United Kingdom, I am not going to take lectures from latter-day Unionists who are now using it as merely a hook on which to hang their resignations.

      “The Union is far more important than people’s political careers. That is why I am focused on Scotland remaining in the United Kingdom and the best way for that to happen is to ensure that we have an orderly Brexit across the whole of the United Kingdom.”

      The question is about resigning over Brexit, but Mundell talks about the Union, his real concern.

      He describes Brexit as a means to preserving the Union – the priority.

      Put the two together and we get a clue as to Westminster’s real agenda – Scotland.

      While there is a lot of trade, and a lot of money to be made by the UK in Europe, there are too many strings attached which spell ruin for the Establishment’s empire of secret wealth and tax evasion. Scotland in contrast, has massive wealth but no strings, apart from Independence.

      May says nothing about Scotland because to do so would only draw attention to all the issues surrounding Scotland, not least Independence, and May doesn’t want that.
      For over forty years, successive Prime Ministers have said nothing about Scotland’s oil and gas for fear it would stir up pro-Independence sentiment, which is a must-to-avoid for Westminster.
      In recent years, the same pattern appeared about Renewables in Scotland, which hold the prospect of wealth to match oil & gas.

      Meanwhile, this unprecedented political circus continues its daily performance, capturing the attention of the entire UK population in a masterstroke of distraction. The Establishment don’t give a fig for the EU, and even less for those in the UK who are bound to suffer most from Brexit.

      Beware, Scotland.

    229. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 15 November, 2018 at 3:28 pm:

      ” … Legalism is the curse of politics, particularly in Scotland, it beats down, strangles and asphyxiates initiative, imagination and audacity.”

      Absolute pish!

      What has strangled Scotland breaking from the union is the legal fact that to do so legally requires a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to require their delegated representatives to do their bidding.

      People like you are the discouraging factor that has, for centuries, prevented that happening. There are people in Scotland who would argue and fight with their shadows. The destroy everything they touch. They have destroyed Scottish Football by driving many decent people away from the game.

      They have emptied many pubs and clubs and their hate, malice, racism and sectarianism has destroyed the once great Labour party and now they are attempting to destroy the only hope we have of a better, and independent Scotland.

      Consider yourself as the only other person than Rock on My ignored list. As already stated I’m sick to my back teeth with the FM, SG and SNP detractors. I’ve had enough of their pish.

    230. Capella says:

      Just checked the Parliament tv again and the bit that was missing appears to be restored although no mention of the CJEU. So I’ve no idea what has hapened there.

      However, the fact is, if the CJEU deem that Parliament can revoke article 50 then that is also a possible outcome of the present shambles.

    231. Thepnr says:


      Article 50 can of course also be extended if the EU agree, so a no deal is by no means a forgone conclusion yet.

    232. laukat says:

      @Capella I appreciate that is another option but the timetable I suggested leaves no time for it really. All that the hard Brexiteers have to do is slow parliament down for the next 4 months and a no deal brexit happens by default.

      Politically I think the next Tory leader is going to be a Brexiteer so its hard to see how they could propose revoking article 50 as their first action.

    233. ronnie anderson says:

      Cubby that scribble of Connelly’s of god looking down on people head/shooders , as god’s all omnipotent Connelly could do a scribble from the bottom up all we’ll see is plates of meat an a arse and a dick , he could sell it as a self portrait .

    234. Cubby says:

      Goodness gracious me . A Britnat turns up on Wings. He must have scraped up his brains off the floor after all the Britnats heads exploded over the farce of Brexit they are presiding over. Hope you wiped up the floor with a union flag.

      What a bunch of clowns and liars.

    235. TheItalianJob says:

      @manandboy at 9.24pm

      Agreed. I’ll repeat my post this morning from the previous article to this one.

      TheItalianJob says:
      15 November, 2018 at 7:40 am
      I think the Establishment parties will get this Brexit deal through and vote for it. This deal is not a hard “no deal”. Still in the CU for the transition period with a final solution to be agreed, freedom of movement still guaranteed for the transition period and no hard border between Rep Ireland and N Ireland.
      They all know if they don’t vote this through then Indy2 will be called and they are seriously worried it will be a yes vote.
      Keeping Scotland in the U.K. is now their end game.

    236. Essexexile says:

      It’s no surprise that May has survived today. When there’s no option pish wins by default.
      It’s a sad and frustrating fact that despite everybody with an IQ in three figures knowing Brexit will lead to disaster on many levels, the entire UK political establishment can’t seem to summon the collective cohones to stop it.
      It’s a further sad and frustrating fact that despite the most gilt edged opportunity in British political history, the eminently credible and brilliantly led SNP still can’t seem to shift Scots opinion on indy are clearly relying on Westminster lunching itself to achieve it’s goal.
      Still, if that’s the way it’s got to be …

    237. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      The situation is getting out of hand what we need now is another royal wedding that should distract the proles.

      Too much madness going on never known so much madness.

      Why are we not independent dont get it.

    238. Thepnr says:


      I think it’s too late for the Labour party to support this deal. Corbyn has made that clear today, what makes you think he might change his mind in the next couple of weeks?

    239. Cubby says:

      Note to Scottish fishermen. The Maybot just says fishing access will be under the control of the UK. She never ever says she will not bargain away access ( just like Ted Heath Tory PM did in 1974) to the EU for a trade deal.

      They lied about the transition period and they will sellout Scottish fishing again.

    240. Cubby says:

      Ronnie Anderson@9.37pm

      Sounds like you are not an admirer of the Big yin either.

      ps thanks for the free Wings badge at Bannockburn.

    241. Rock says:

      I can say with 100% confidence that gutless Establishment lawyer Nicola will not hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster.

      And it goes without saying that Westminster is not going to grant a Section 30 order before 2640 AD.

      I challenge all esteemed highly knowledgeable posters commenting here who think she will to go on the record and say so now.

      And perhaps some can give their own views as to when the next independence referendum should be held.

    242. Golfnut says:


      Sorry you felt that my response was funny, your question was “how would we collect tax”. I think my response gave a pretty concise answer on why that wasn’t an immediate problem, and being in dispute with westminster won’t worry the money men. I’m not advocating UDI its a silly suggestion, Scotland isn’t a colony, its in a legally recognised International Treaty, and whether we have a referendum or not, how the dissolution of the union occurs will determine how quickly we are recognised as and Independent state. That’s the crux of the matter, how quickly Scotland and her Government are recognised as legal entities.
      Of course we will be arguing with Westminster, dispute resolution may take years, but that will not prevent Scotland financing government functions.

    243. Capella says:

      @ Cubby – from SNP Kintyre – looks like the West Coast fishermen have broken away from the Scottish Fishing Federation because it is a Tory front for millionaires:

    244. Cactus says:

      BREAKING: PM going to speak on LBC tomorrow morning.

      Gonna listen to ‘Equestrian Time’, on 5 live radio.

      Should be a lively crowd!


    245. Petra says:

      Muriel Gray should resign. If not be kicked out. Another arrogant Unionist with a sense of entitlement.

    246. Essexexile says:

      Robert Peffers @8.56
      I’m with you 100% on having complete faith in NS to get it right.
      I’ve believed for a while that the SNP will be working towards a defacto indy rather than taking the iref2 route.
      If we’re honest (absolutely honest) the polls just aren’t showing enough support for indy with or without Brexit – it should reasonably be expected to 60+% for yes with the political scenario we’re facing, even higher if facing a no deal brexit.
      The SNP will have crunched the numbers (as Rev Stu did on here a month or two back) and started working on a plan B.
      It could well all start to unfold soon. Here’s hoping.

    247. Cubby says:


      When they were going through the options in the HOC and on the news programmes I did think why is no one stating an extension to the article 50 end date.

      Technically it seems a possible option to me if needed but I don’t think it will be implemented. Too many Brexiteers will not want the formal date changed.

    248. Macart says:

      Mmmmm. It could be that May survives because someone in the big chair has to carry the can you know. It’s unlikely they’ll chance a GE before some form of Brexit outcome is achieved over the winter. After March? Depending on which way the wind blows with the public and dependent on their desired outcomes, her coat might well be on a shoogly peg.

      Conservatives are long term planners for power and short-termist policy makers for populism. I’d guess the next PM is already planned for by the 1922 Committee. If they aren’t then the committee wouldn’t be very good at their job.

      Their problem? What the Scottish government are up to. The outcomes of the two cases before two separate judiciaries. The uncontested claim of right which has passed through commons. The bill through Holyrood on the right to hold a referendum and the fact that after four straight years of media assault, the YES vote hasn’t receded.

      You want to know why they avoid even mentioning the name Sc****nd? Why you rarely see SNP representation on telly? Why the meeja have effectively frozen out the third party of UK politics and the second largest by membership? Why they treat the Scottish benches with utter contempt?

      I’d guess fear. They’re terrified to give the SNP any kind of platform or validity.

      Worth a thought.

    249. TheItalianJob says:

      @Thepnr at 9.46pm

      I don’t trust Corbyn or the Labour Party or any Unionist party. Especially Labour who fronted the Better Together campaign during Indy2014.

      Look where the leader of that campaign sits now (Alistar Darling HOL – Baron Darling of Roulanish).

      If the Westminster Establishment think the current shambles of Brexit will lead to Scottish Independence there will be a deal done to vote the present deal (or equivalent with maybe some agreed amendments) through to thwart this eventuality.

      It’s early days yet and a lot to play for but this is just my opinion at the moment on what potentially could happen.

      It’s happened many times before where Labour have gone hand in hand with the Tories to vote on bills they should have opposed.

    250. Thepnr says:


      Apologies for picking you up wrong. I don’t find any of it in any way funny, but that was my way of ridiculing UDI and those that support it.

      Sorry for getting it wrong and no harm meant to you.

    251. Cubby says:

      Hey Rockshit has your head exploded. Plenty people gave you a reply so why don’t you just go off to bed now. Your posts are boring Britnat crap. You must have repeated yourself a thousand times. Full marks for perseverance zero marks for originality.

    252. Rob James says:

      Immigration was merely the stick used to whip up support for the leave campaign. Add in a couple of sweeteners such as the £350 million a week for the NHS and ‘take back control’, accompanied by choruses of Rule Britannia, and it was job done.

      The ‘taking back control’, however,refers to taking back control of Scotland. Do not underestimate these devious bastirts.

      As Max Keiser pointed out at Indyref in 2014. ‘They treat the people of Scotland like mushrooms – Keep them in the dark and feed them poop. There’s no way England is going to let go of it’s cash cow.’

      Don’t forget that the push for Brexit stepped up several gears shortly after we elected 56 SNP MP’s to Westminster.

      Brexit would offer them the opportunity to rip up the devolution settlement and ‘take back control’ without any interference from the EU.

      If we seriously want out, it will need to be before Mar 29th 2019. We went to sleep after 2015 and ended up losing a fair number of seats. They certainly weren’t sleeping and were hard at work laying the foundations of a Tory revival, supported by their partners in crime, the Red Tories, led by Empire loving little Englander Corbyn, who stood by and said nowt as his Scottish branch betrayed any remaining labour principles by walking hand in hand to the ballot box.

      Be warned, they won’t give us up easily.

    253. Hamish100 says:

      rock ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wake up!!!

      I told you Referendum next year.

      I will be right or will be wrong. I can live with it. You have to wait 622 years!! Tosser, why, cos you will be deid?

    254. Ken500 says:

      Why on earth is Gray still there. The slavering pretentious would-be swans around the Art School. The Labour/Unionist patronage. Then destroyed the site. Still trying to cover up. The first fire should never had happened if the H&S rules were implemented and sprinklers had been installed. Typical Labour /unionists they can’t count or read a balance sheet. Ignorant, arrogant useless incompetents. Wasting £Millions of public money like there is no tomorrow.

    255. call me dave says:

      Was I hearing things when May listed three options today?

      1. Her deal
      2. No deal leave
      3. No Brexit…. I’m sure that’s what she said.

      So there is that 3rd option but it depends on a lot of dominoes getting put in the right order. Not by the Tories :-).

      It was when she was answering at PMQ’s in HoC

    256. Thepnr says:


      I knew you would have your reason, but the point remains taht as of right now the Labour party will NOT vote for this deal. This might change but I doubt it because his Corbyn’s hopes rest in forcing a General Election and in them becoming the new government.

      Whether that might happen or not is up for debate but Scotland I think right now is secondary in their assessments as usual they will be looking to what they can achieve in England and their priority is getting another election.

    257. Ken500 says:

      Nicola is about to advocate the date for IndyRef2. May will not last the week.

    258. Colin Alexander says:

      Craig Murray:

      After he points out the betrayal of Scotland’s fishing communities AGAIN. He says:

      “It seems to me a general election is the most probable outcome of the current turmoil. The Scottish Government should announce that, in the event of pro-independence MPs winning a majority of Westminster seats, Scotland will declare Independence and apply to the United Nations for recognition and admission”.

      I agree 100%.

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “So there you go – get on with discouraging Wingers as you do it so well. I’m certainly discouraged – but not by the FM, the SG or the SNP.

      AuldBob, I’d imagine the FM has one or two people reading below the line on most forums, including this one, to get the flavour of what people think.

      Which means that any criticism can get back and at least be taken into account in decision making, maybe even in getting some ideas. You can see this by some of the SNP people going out into the outside world and expressing the same opinions.

      I think it’s to be welcomed, I would in her shoes. I’d want to know what’s going on with (relatively) normal punters.

      Don’t let it get you down.

    260. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings, I see the crisis meeting at Dover House has broken up, and it’s back to the desks and keyboards.

      Did you know the nearest Tube station is Westminster, just down Whitehall and Parliament Street on the District Line? Or more likely the Jubilee Line, change there at Bond Street and head out on Central for the end of the line!

      I can just see them all, with their bowlers and brollies.

      Jolly good show, what?

    261. Thepnr says:

      Here’s the bad news I think for those chomping at the bit for a date for the next Independence Referendum, I don’t think you’ll get one before at least the 29th March.

      Not because we might then be OUT of the EU but because we might not be, only once we know if there is or is not going to be another General Election or a peoples vote will Nicola Sturgeon make her mind up.

      If you think about it then it’s all she can do or she might be blind sided and the whole referendum thrown up in the air.

      She’ll gamble with the result but only when the odds are in her favour as she’s anything but stupid and she’s right IMO.

    262. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Lenny Hartley at 8.56

      Exactly. Billy Connolly was very ambivalent about independence in that interview.He did NOT say he was still against it rather insinuating that he was thinking differently about it now

    263. Hamish100 says:

      billy Connelly

      Just because he’s now thinking what colour of socks he may wear doesn’t mean a thing. Makes all the nonsense of few weeks ago look so silly. Still it helped his new book sales

    264. Cactus says:

      Regarding Billy, ah happened to be in that very gallery several days ago on Queen Street, (was previouly the Miller Art Shop) BC’s frames are on the rhs as you go in, all 4 figures, at first ah thought it was something from The Limmy Show.

      Some excellent pieces in there… one particular artist used a tremendous about of layered coloured oils on their oil paintings, almost 3DArt like, they must go thru a lot of paint tubes, it could be a costly business being an artist.

      By the way, aye mentioned the Army Careers shop had closed up on Queen Street achwhile back, well it reopened not long after a bit further down the street towards Tam Shepherd’s Trick & Magic shop… Tam’s still laughing though.

      Immigration good, for Scotland.

      Come be an independent Scot.

    265. Big Jock says:

      Thepnr there is no reason Nicola can’t set a date for independence,just because there might then be an election. That’s not relevant to the independence case. The mistake we are making is relying on events out with our control to dictate the future of our nation.

      The same goes for the Peoples Vote. We should press ahead . The GE or Peoples Vote may never materialise. The more time we waste the less time we have to actually get out. We have 4 months!

      Time for action.

    266. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      15 November, 2018 at 10:26 pm

      “Nicola is about to advocate the date for IndyRef2.”

      Does “about to” mean sometime next week?

      What does “advocate” mean?

      IndyRef2 in 2640 AD?

      “May will not last the week.”

      You have saying that since the day she became PM.

      If she does last the week, will you have the humility to accept that you were wrong?

      Again, for the record:

      I can say with 100% confidence that gutless Establishment lawyer Nicola will not hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster.

      And it goes without saying that Westminster is not going to grant a Section 30 order before 2640 AD.

      Does a single poster here have the guts to go on the record and state that Nicola will definitely hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster?

      If so, when?

    267. yesindyref2 says:

      @Big Jock “The mistake we are making

      I personally don;t think any mistakes have been made so far, even though it#s frustrating waiting. Unlike Thepnr though I thimk Indy Ref 2 will ba announced at the latest, 2 weeks before the actual Brexit date (if it happens), to clear the way for en EU-27 transitional add-on to the withdrawal agreement.

      But on the other hand, it could be a quickly organised and held Referenum, within 3 months of announcement.

      There’s no real reason why not, the snap GE was announced on 18 Apr 2017, and held on June 8th. Just over 7 weeks.

    268. manandboy says:

      “Tonight, senior sources in DUP have told me that the confidence and supply agreement is over – unless Theresa May goes. They say the future of the agreement “depends on who the leader of the Conservative Party is”
      Harry Yorke on Twitter

    269. Rock says:

      Clydebuilt says:
      15 November, 2018 at 1:41 pm

      “The hatred of foreigners whipped buy the tabloids has served it’s purpose, winning the Brexit vote.

      So can be dropped now. . . . Job done!”

      I believe that answers “the question begged”.

    270. Famous15 says:

      Rock,think about Boycot Jeffrey and getting the runs. We in Scotland are cursed with good fortune.

      Get off your jellied eels!

      Sorry about the Cockiny rhyming slang. Scotland stand up for what you know to be true.

      Independence is the only sane solution.

    271. Jock McDonnell says:

      Yes, she said the UK will control its own waters – perhaps – but what will they do with that control ?

    272. Thepnr says:

      @Big Jock

      Maybe you are right but it did look to me that what scuppered a second Independence referendum in 2017 was the surprise announcement of a General Election that also lost the SNP 23 seats.

      I think that and the possibility of a “Peoples Vote” are a distraction from a referendum and don’t help our cause one bit as there’s always someone who will believe “ah mibbee we’ll jist stay in” or “mibbee Corbyn will win”

      No distractions, in or out of the UK all other options exhausted is the only way to go.

      That’s if you want to be certain of winning and I’m pretty sure Nicola Sturgeon will NOT through down the gauntlet before she is absolutely certain of winning.

      Know something, I respect a leader that has to make that difficult choice and that will make it when she believes it is best for all us that support Independence. It is a huge responsibility that she will not shirk from.

      Neither though would she ever go too early and risk losing that referendum only for all of us to be let down again. For what in my lifetime will be the last time. It really will be over for a generation.

      Keep the faith and trust the most clever politician in the UK to make the right decision on our behalf as she will.

    273. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Dear RP..Left to people like you the British Empire would still be in tact, no independent Ireland, India, Nigeria etc…they’d still be waiting for that majority that never comes.
      You’re a bit of an independence but not quite yet type underneath all that bluster.
      Too many like you in the SNP.

    274. Big Jock says:

      One thing we can all agree on. Mays Brexit bill cannot make it past WM. So let’s imagine she hangs on and then loses the vote.

      She will resign and trigger a leadership contest. In the interim Gove or Boris will be appointed as an emergency to get the no deal Brexit through.

      So in that situation , which is highly likely. Where a no deal is a certainty. This would be mid December. What does Nicola do.

      My answer is an emergency referendum, and that should take place before Brexit day. It could be announced in December and carried out in late February or early March.

    275. Capella says:

      We’ll be independent when the majority of Scots voters decide to be independent.

      Not when Billy Connolly decides
      Not when Theresa May decides
      Not when Richard Leonard decides
      Not when Ruth Davidson decides
      Not even when Nicola Sturgeon decides

      But when Scottish people decide that we have had enough of being drained of resources and then abused for having no resources, then we will be independent.

    276. Big Jock says:

      Thepnr I get your point about GE etc. But the worry is that we run out of time. Also the SNP would have to fight the GE on a ticket of vote SNP and we will immediately hold a referendum.

      They cannot just say Stronger For Scotland again. There needs to be a reason to vote SNP.

    277. Dan Huil says:

      “Tory deal with DUP over unless UK PM May replaced” says the DUP.

      Once again the direction of Ireland’s politics is shown to be important to Scotland’s politics.

    278. Macart says:

      DUP apparently saying that the supply and confidence agreement is over unless etc etc.

      Um. Mibbies me, but I’d have thought that stable door’s been swinging on its hinges for some time.

      TBH, you’d have to be mental to have a hot take on anything today. Moving on to choccie raisins now and at some point I’ll have to go to the little boys room. 😎

    279. Thepnr says:

      @Big Jock

      I don’t believe we can ever run out of time but I get your point that the turmoil created by the Brexit chaos means that there is unlikely to ever be a better time and we should go for it now.

      I agree, but Brexit is not over yet, the best time will be when the British State is at it’s lowest and believe me we are not there yet, though it might be getting close.

      We have everything on our side right now, we really do. Our opponents in the Union are in turmoil, so lets not press the starting gun too soon. Much more is yet to come and their shambles can only be good for our case.

      No matter what is to come next we will have benefited from their incompetence being exposed to all the public, at the very best moment Nicola will throw them into complete turmoil and they will be no threat to the Independence argument as they will be in too much of a mess themselves.

      A second Referendum is coming but we need to know what we’re up against. Losing is NOT an option.

    280. Robert Louis says:

      Big Jock, I

      I agree pretty much with you. Their will NEVER be a ‘perfect’ time for indyref2. No matter how long NS waits. Say she waits until 29th March 2019, even then their will be NEW potential events looming on the horizon – events we cannot predict. Goodness sake, don’t people understand political strategy??

      Their will never be a ‘perfect’ time. Say we wait until we know we are definitely getting dragged out of the EU by England, and their is definitely no second vote, and Theresa has just won a leadership challenge (meaning the next must wait one year), even then, their will be even more new events on the horizon, where we could sit and say, ‘you know what why don’t we wait just one more month, just to be sure.

      If things carry on any longer with this ‘wait and see’ malarky, it will be another 300 or more years in the union.

    281. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Louis

      I think you’re wrong, the right time will be obvious just as it is as obvious to me that now is not the time. Not when our opponents daily continue to make such arses of themselves.

      Believe me you will know the right time when you see it, it might be close but the British state have many more embarrassing disasters to go through yet or would you dispute that and from today “it’s all OK now for the Tories” LOL.

    282. Thepnr says:

      This turmoil matters a lot because there are far too many in Scotland who as yet do not have a clue as to what is going on. This will only slowly seep into their consciousness and we need that to happen.

      They need to become wise as to how incompetent and useless Westminster government really is, only then can an Independent Scottish government become more attractive.

      Very few voters read Wings even fewer pay attention to politics at all. This debacle while is gets maximum coverage does us a huge favour and will increase support.

      Lets not rush while they are still making an arse of it, if in the unlikely event they actually rescue this by some miracle and there in no GE or Peoples Vote. Then that’s when we go and land another blow on them before they have even recovered from the EU debacle.

    283. Cubby says:

      Capella @11.18pm

      Well said. Spot on.

    284. Cubby says:

      Hey Rockshit will you just have the guts to go to your bed and stop posting your boring boring crap.

    285. Dr Jim says:

      Over the next wee while all the polls will show no movement in support for Independence with the media in Scotland continually badgering the FM about when she’s going to call it without the support of the people, that’s the usual modus operandi of the media with the Tories and Labour writing columns in newspapers shouting against it while including Alex Salmond slurs and bad NHS outcomes or railway drivel

      All of the above will happen as the Britnats engage in damage limitation for the salvation of their feifdom, and you know what, this time it’s not going to work, they’ve blown it

      The biggest march in Scotland is what we could be doing with right now, a nice big giant pre Christmas rally, BBC and STV might try to keep it quiet but it’ll be all over that big London National news because they just live for the creation of controversy

      Can it happen?

    286. HYUFD says:

      Sky News poll of UK voters today

      Remain 54%, No Deal 32%, May’s Deal 14%.

      55% want a second referendum.

      Nicola better hurry up about it or it could be EUref2 and Remain and all you Nats about will have run out of your main excuse for EUref2! Note even May did not rule out No Brexit yesterday

    287. Cubby says:

      Billy bananafeet is now sitting on the fence. Maybe ayes maybe naws. He lives in Florida – not hanging around waiting for him to make up his mind – what’s the point. The court jester sucking up to royalty might lose his invites to the garden parties.

    288. Bob Mack says:

      Fuddy, before you can have another vote ,you have to have a government that wants that option. You do not. Your Tory pals have ruled that out completely.

      You stopped getting Conservative Home delivered?

    289. Thepnr says:

      When the Tory trolls are telling you that:

      Nicola better hurry up about it or it could be EUref2 and Remain and all you Nats about will have run out of your main excuse for EUref2!

      Then you know that you’re best waiting as you have them worried.

    290. HYUFD says:

      Bob Mack Up to 50 Tory MPs are said to back EUref2 over No Deal giving it a clear majority in the Commons.

      As I said note May did not rule out No Brexit at all yesterday and she has previously said she would refer to Parliament if she could not get her Deal through

    291. HYUFD says:

      Thepnr Sturgeon makes May look decisive.

      Trust me, I am not worried. Salmond was not to my taste but like Boris he had balls!

    292. Cubby says:

      The Britnat tag team – The Plonkers – have both come out to play.

      Britnats are a laughing stock. Britnats fighting each other all over the UK. Britnats calling each other liars and carpetbaggers and Jonny come lately unionists. Britnats calling for other Britnats to resign.

      This is not your normal Brexit this a humiliating Britnat Tory Brexit. The EU wiping the floor with the Britnat Tories and pissing on their union flag.

    293. North chiel says:

      Ok folks , where are we now ? Not sure whether the “ confidence vote” in TM is relevant? The relevant vote will take place in HOC and if May wins ( however apparently unlikely/ but a week is a long time in politics) then the deal is unacceptable to Holyrood and the referendum mandate is in place. ( The article 50 case going to ECJ and “ continuity bill” is still in play and is significant indeed in relation to Brexit and Independence strategy). If May loses the vote then surely she resigns and a caretaker pm would be the Tory plan to get them over the end of March line and “ No deal” . Thereafter are we looking at “ Emergency powers” and suspension of “ devolved institutions” thereafter. Or possible government of “ National unity” ( what a joke ? What was discussed between May and Corbyn yesterday ?? I would hazard a guess she was clarifying the “ National emergency no deal “situation for him if she loses HOC vote whilst equating her deal with “ support from all sides of HOC “ to avert this impending disaster. ).
      We won’t know until the vote takes place how the “ dice rolls”? However, I genuinely think our FM is playing a very astute strategy and is it possible that the legal/ constitutional route might now be the preferred option to Independence to be thereafter ratified via referendum ? If a general election is “ on the cards” then could the FM mandate that an SNP majority of MP’s should thereafter constitute / initiate legal moves to end the treaty of union . Perhaps a “legal battle” over the Union treaty could end up in ECJ ( to include the Scottish sovereignty issue and Brexit implications?). Any referendum thereafter might be held on terms / status of Scotland within Europe/ EU EEA etc. A Britnat Corbyn government could not be trusted , however if dependant on SNP support to form a government then surely our FM could exact a high price in terms of Scottish sovereignty and the Europe/ Brexit issue ahead of Independence.
      Finally, despite the FM supporting the people’s vote , I would continue to view this as the Westminster last card “ backstop” against Independence. However perhaps our FM if she believes a legal or other route can found to get us to the end game sees some gain in supporting a second EU vote ? Not sure on this as outcome could be E&W voting remain. Certainly our wonderful FM is so right to continue to hold her powder dry until the “ smoke clears” . One thing is absolutely certain that “ the precious precious union “trumps Brexit ( and always has done) , as far as the Westminster establishment is concerned ( a word in your ear Jeremy from the PM’s real boss??).

    294. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 12.14
      Quite right, advice like that we don’t need!!!
      What we do need is more of these MSM broadcasts…. where they are saying memorable things that we can use in the Indy Ref… Showing their true colours…. we couldn’t buy that kind of footage
      It’s certainly been entertaining today.
      I don’t often get to see it,(no telly) but have been near a TV most of the day today…
      It’s been hilarious….
      By the way I swear that Andrew Neil is drunk…

    295. Cubby says:

      If all you did was listen to the Scottish Britnat Tories you would think that all people did in Scotland was go out on a fishing boat every day . All they prattle on about is fishing. They have even taken to having pictures of fishing boats in the background behind them on the telly. I have never been out on a fishing boat in my life and I bet these Tories haven’t either. Are they on commission!!!!!!!!!!!

      Remember Tories do nothing for free and anything for money.

    296. manandboy says:

      There will be few better descriptions of Brexit than this piece by Ian Dunt

      A taster, but there is so much more:

      ” Raab has already been followed by several Brexit-supporting Cabinet secretaries and junior ministers. None of them have stated what they would do instead of the deal May has proposed. They act as if there is some kind of magical Brexit just around the corner which civil servants have simply failed to find. What it is, they are unable to say. They have no answers. They have nothing to offer except their own yearning desires for something they cannot articulate.

      The dream is always just that, a dream. The reality is humiliation and chaos. From Brussels’ perspective it is genuinely unclear if they have a viable negotiating partner. What a catastrophically shoddy situation for a British government to be in. Two and half years into Brexit and one of the world’s leading countries is now so maimed and baffled it cannot even strike deals without politically imploding.”

    297. Famous15 says:

      The millionaire Tory boat owners six off: check.

      The rest of the fishing industry support the SNP.

    298. Cubby says:

      Question Time tonight.

      Claire Perry Britnat Tory Minister – what a rabble rouser. You could easily picture her at the front of a mob. What a horrible person.

      She actually called Corbyn an anti – Semite. Corbyn should sue her. Shouts of apologise came from the audience but she refused.

      Tory party = the nasty party.

    299. mr thms says:

      The deal is a draft of an international treaty on how the UK leaves the EU at the end of March 2019

      The PM said the final version of the Treaty would differ (slightly?) after the EU Summit on the agreement, at the end of November.

      It is this treaty that the House of Commons will be vofing on.

      So there could be a surprise Yes to the deal.

      The next phase will be about the ‘transitional arrangements’

      Which is why, with regard immigration, the UK government will soon publish its Immigration White Paper.

    300. manandboy says:

      I can hardly believe it’s been two and a half years since the EU referendum. With a further twenty one months minimum after March 2019, before the UK fully becomes a ‘third country’, that’s a recipe for ongoing turmoil in the UK.

      The genie is truly out of the bottle, and things will never be the same again.

    301. Dr Jim says:

      BBC Briefings:
      Police in England say they are expecting shortage rioting due to Brexit and they will not be able to cope

    302. Breeks says:

      For a long time I have been a vocal critic of the SNP’s lacklustre promotion of Independence. Nobody has ever explained to me why things had to be they way they are beyond saying “it just had to be that way”. I remain highly cynical of the strategy, so it might seem a paradox, but I think right now Nicola needs to be very cautious indeed.

      I think it is likely that Theresa May might win a vote of No confidence. I think Theresa May has a slim but credible chance of getting her deal through the Commons, especially if she has pulled the rug out from beneath Rees-Moggs feet and has the arch Brexiteers in disarray. It would seem against all odds, but that’s exactly why it could be important. I think there is a sense that Theresa May has hit rock bottom, BUT, rock bottom is the point where things cannot get worse and the only way is up. She has survived her darkest hour and trial by fire.

      Unless Nicola Sturgeon gets her timing right, she will be portrayed by the rabid media as “kicking May while she’s down, at the dangerous turning point when May is just beginning to stand up and coral the headless chickens in Westminster behind her “last chance saloon” bad deal Brexit.

      If Nicola presses the button now, she will provide Theresa May with an absolute gift of an opportunity to unite the House of Commons with cross party resolve at the very instant when cross party resolve is the very thing she needs for her Brexit raft to get through the rapids.

      Theresa May could, perhaps, emerge from this firestorm entrenched, strengthened, victorious over the disintegrating cohort of “back passing” Brexiteers, and emboldened to meet a pro-Independence initiative head on, and repeat her “FFS! Now is not the time” mantra to a chorus of back bench cheers and jeers.

      Perhaps it had to be this way, that Scottish Independence has to take on and defeat a Westminster wholly united and standing full square against us, but like it or not, I think it might be what we’ll get.

      IF Theresa May has Rees-Moggs head on a spike and somehow does get her deal through against all odds, she will emerge from this portrayed as a modern Boudicca who has seen off the Europeans, seen of the Brexiteers, and now has her chariots pointed towards Scotland. It’s all the same hot air and horseshit of course, but we must surely know the South Britons just can’t get enough of that crap and will lap it up.

      I don’t know. For once I am indecisive. We might have cheekily “nicked” our Independence while Westminster wasn’t looking, but now, IF Brexit and Boris are locked up in the Tower of London, we may have a rampant Westminster’s fullest attention.

      To paraphrase Outlaw King,… it looks like we’ll get our fight. To channel the real King Robert, I hope our pits are deep enough and the spikes are all sharpened. I hope we are ready.

    303. Ken500 says:

      Neil is an alcoholic. He needs treatment. Thatcher henchman. He broadcast lies about Scotland for years. A complete and utter charlotan. A lying Tory sychophant. He has become a multimillionaire on wasted public money. A tax evader. The taxman cometh. Looming large. Another nasty right wing Tory. A ultra right Brexit ring leader. A despicable Brexiteer. Will his Swedish wife get chucked out as well? Another overpaid prima Donna who thinks they are the story. The right wing Press in turmoil. They don’t know which way to turn. All the lies. The non Dom tax evaders foreign owners backed Brexit and orchestrated it. Now leading to their demise.

      The Tories are crashing the world economy again. They want to put the world in recession. To make themselves multimillionaires. Illegally. The Brexit total mess and escapade, They can’t escape. What an absolute farce.

      The longer the wait for Indyref2. The higher the support. Demographics. Patience is a virtue. It would be difficult to call an IbdyRef among the Brexit chaos. With a GE election coming. It should be called before leaving the EU if possible, Scotland needs EU support. The Tories will be defeated soon but look who comes in The Labour/unionists bastards just as bad.They are paid from London HQ’s to try and ruin the Scottish economy.

      May will be gone, An IndyRef which can be won declared very soon. Sure as night follows day. Thereafter a new beginning. The longer the wait. The higher the support. Without any doubt.

      There are people in Scotland who would still vote Unionist. Despite the complete and utter chaos. Just unbelievable. An act of gross self harming.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get someone else to join in. The Ref will be won. Now there is no alternative. To crash and burn. The bonfire of the vanities, The Westminster lying psychopaths. Rees Mog holding court like some saviour. The total joke. They are making people sick and tired by their behaviour. Put them out of their misery.

      Sanctioning and starving people is an absolute disgrace. The UK has the largest wealth gap in the world. The Westminster unionists imbeciles have taken £Billions out of Scotland to achieve it. Instead of growing the Scottish economy.

      Nicola & Co getting a lot of appearances in. The only one’s making any sense. In the total fiasco. More people are dying because of the Westminster redundant intransigence.

      Who will resign today? May might jump before being pushed.

    304. Ken500 says:

      Rats in a sack doesn’t cover it. Jumping the sinking ship of their own creation. The deluded creationists. Bloody warmonging cowards and their sychophants.

    305. yesindyref2 says:

      I’d really like to see a new Indy poll with fieldwork done next week. Even just a straight “would you vote YES or NO”.

    306. Petra says:

      ‘Scotland isn’t mentioned in May’s Brexit deal – here are the places that are.’


      ‘Bank chiefs summoned as Brexit resignations send pound into freefall.’


      ‘Will BBC Scotland report as NHS Scotland surpasses ‘unexpected hospital deaths’ target?’


      ‘FAKE NEWS: BBC Scotland ‘presents’ figures to suggest agriculture deaths are higher in Scotland when they are lower.’

    307. Essexexile says:

      Breeks @6.45
      On top form again and as good a prediction of future events as any (some truly world class use of analogy and historical reference too!).
      ‘Peak nat’ has been rather like low interest rates in that we’ve had it good for so long were perhaps in danger of thinking it might never end.
      NS is naturally cautious and she’ll be well aware of what happened last time she called iref2 and the opposition turned anti independence into a vote winner (albeit in a GE).
      Some think the moment will be obvious when it comes, like you I’m not so sure but we must trust in them to get it right cos it sure as hell is a one shot opportunity.
      Approaching squeaky bum time!

    308. Tom says:

      There’s a famous quote by some famous person … Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.

      It’s been two years of mistakes. As soon as TM sent Article 50 to the EU without any form of a plan, I think this was pretty much inevitable.

      It could have been that with a competent and united government, we could have reached some sort of deal, what I don’t know because the Ireland border was intractable from the start.

      I think Nicola is waiting for things to really fall apart and if you want to know how far things could fall apart? Watch the 3 blokes in a pub videos on you-tube (the inventor of which had never been to Glasgow).

    309. Dr Jim says:

      Stop saying the word Scotland it offends the Brits, you can say Northern Ireland and talk about the prospect of violence that’s OK, you can talk about Gibralter because well that’s British and Brittanical and Royal and historic and well English, you can talk about London and special arrangements for that place because well London, or how about maybe car manufacturers you can get them on the phone and have a chat with them to see what they want

      But don’t mention the dreaded word Scotland because they’ll tell you oh it’s about land borders or peacefulness or the sky is sometimes a different colour in the morning so the same rules cannot possibly apply to the dreaded Scotland just because, and we’ll think of another reason in a minute

      There’s one reason and one reason only for denying Scotland the same fairness as everybody else and that is they just don’t want to because they don’t like us or want us to succeed

      Scotland must fail, it’s in the British play book of how to subdue a Nation when you need all the resources of that Nation to survive

      1845 to 1850 Ireland , did the Brits care about Ireland when they surrounded that country with British warships and flooded it with British troops then massacred over 100.000 people to steal their food then call it a famine leaving mass graves the length and breadth of the whole of Ireland, no they didn’t and if they thought they could get away with it they’d do it to Scotland

      Aye, don’t mention the word Scotland in case they take it out on us for speaking Sshh!

    310. Giving Goose says:

      Breeks is on the money.
      There is more to play out here.
      Let it run it’s course and see where it goes.
      English public opinion is being whipped up in the background. Don’t lose sight of that.
      It’s not all about what happens at Westminster.

    311. Undeadshuan says:

      There are risks at the moment to call a new indy ref.

      May could be replaced and a GE is the result especially if new pm is a hard brexiter.

      A second EU ref could be anounced to clear the impass.

      And most unlikely, infact only .0000000001% chance.

      May has a news confereence outside No 10 and announces as her colleguaes are stabbing her in the back, that she will hit back and rescind article 50

      I would think once dust has settled early next year, the date will be announced.

    312. Giving Goose says:

      Treeza on the radio at 0800.
      LBC for a phone in.

    313. Golfnut says:

      Good comment. There are a couple of Apple’s waiting to fall from the tree, the Supreme Court ruling on the Continuity Bill and the ECJ ruling on A50. Both of these were considered important enough by Westminster to challenge in court.

    314. Nana says:

      This is what the party has sent to members today in his name, @ThatTimWalker. Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour is brexit at all costs. no matter what Starmer or the rest say.

      They will always look out for each other

      Police Federation: No-deal Brexit could lead to disruption, danger, delays and rationing

      The DUP has been accused of “a monumental error of judgment” that will have “a devastating long-term impact” on Northern Ireland, the leader of the Ulster Unionists has said.

    315. Fred says:

      @ Capella, well said! Andra Neil has the same Pizza face as Jackson Carlaw! is that alcohol related? Good news about the inshore fisherman, Buchan & Co are just greedy bastards!

    316. Nana says:

      Brexit: the theatre of it all

      May accord leaves Britain bound to Brussels

      Human rights have been “fundamentally distorted and successfully stigmatised” by tabloid newspapers and must be rehabilitated, according to the UN Special Rapporteur currently in the UK to investigate extreme poverty.

      Exclusive: universal credit linked to suicide risk, says study

    317. Nana says:

      Bankers bonuses may be a wee bit short

      In the dark imagination of English reactionaries, Britain is always a defeated nation – and the EU is the imaginary invader

      Delay, Deny and Deflect: How Facebook’s Leaders Fought Through Crisis

    318. HYUFD says:

      Cubby There was also cheering for Perry

      Ken500 The UK has the largest wealth gap in the world? India, Russia, Saudi Arabia and Brazil and Mexico may have something to say about that. Plus inequality in the UK has fallen over the last 10 years

    319. starlaw says:

      On the news last night during an article on Fishing I noticed two shiny brand new boats in Peterhead Harbour. One was H Hull registered and the other GY , Grimsby is this the next move of the Tory plan to have all North Sea fishing based in Grimsby where the new fish processing plants are being built, a year ago these ports had no fishing boats it had all gone after the Iceland cod wars. Peterhead will become a yacht marina.

    320. HYUFD says:

      This link shows how inequality in the UK has fallen since 2008

    321. Ottomanboi says:

      “Never interfere with an enemy when he’s in the process of destroying himself”….attributed to Napoléon. To which one might add “except by offering more materiel to speed up that process”.
      Saving the UK is not Scottish Nationalism’s theme. We want rid of the thing. Many now expect Sturgeon to start aiding that destruction. So get on with it!

    322. frogesque says:

      Is May still there? Dog’s buggered from all the walking yesterday, not sure if I can get him out today. Had his brecky and pootled off back to bed.

    323. TheItalianJob says:


      Thanks for the links. Interesting one on the Australian professor at New York University on Human rights and how the tabloids skew the perception without reporting any true aspects on Human arights in the U.K.

      Interesting view in what he sees in both Scotland and England (mirrored by his country Australia).

      I quote below his findings.

      “[Scotland’s] First Minister spoke to me about them at great length with a real understanding of what was involved,” he said. “There is a commitment to move towards sustained action… and you’ve got a society in which social rights really matter and people know what you’re talking about.

      “Down in the rest of the country, in England, it is not all that far from what I encounter in my own country, Australia, and that is a ‘for God’s sake, don’t talk about human rights, it’s not going to help’.

    324. Nana says:

      Morning TheItalianJob

      Philip Alston will be holding a press conference today at 12:00 in London to announce the preliminary findings of my investigation into #poverty in the #UK. It will be live-streamed here:

    325. ScottieDog says:

      LOL quoting the bbc echo chamber about inequality. Tell me does it take private debt into account?
      I.e the amount of personal debt people have to accumulate in order to get anywhere near what the previous generation received courtesy of the state.?

    326. Doug_Bryce says:

      Important thought.
      Shout this one from the roof tops.

      The precedent now set for NI means Scotland would never have to choose between UK unitary market and EU single market.

    327. Dr Jim says:

      To hell with Brexit the Union’s more important:

      Torcuil Crighton begins his anti Scottish referendum fight on GM Scotland by claiming Michael Gove can’t resign because that plays into the hands of Sturgeon and the SNP

      Torcuil’s forgotton all about Brexit now he’s on to what’s really important to him

    328. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are making people ill. Telling a pack of lies from start to finish, People are sick and tired of it. The total mess of their duplicity and greed there for all to see. Total inadequates. What a way to carry on. A total nightmare. The utter corruption and scandal of their behaviour. Still trying to carry on. They have out done themselves this time. The malicious lies.

      The Tories are a bunch of total liars, in every way shape and form. The lies they tell are outstanding but they always get found out. Their unionist lies always get found out. It is a wonder why they bother. Looks like they are not bothered jumping the sinking ship before they are pushed. What a total embarrassment. Trying to save their own skin from the mess of their own making.

      They have taken £Billions out of Scotland,illegally and secretly. Killed and mained millions.Most of them should be jail. Keeping their criminality under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

      Yet there are still ignorant people in Scotland who would vote for them. An act of complete self harming. Just unbelievable. This shambolic UK governance is beyond the pale and totally illegal.

      There is not much talk about migration now. Now all the migrants are leaving. Leaving essential,jobs and services behind as the British economy slashes and burns. The Tory/unionists are trying to take down Scotland with them. The bloody cheek of it. Scotland did not vote for it but no consideration or respect. The Tories future thirty years in the wilderness. After this they will not recover. Deja Vu.

    329. One_Scot says:

      To be fair to Theresa May, she has been consistent for some time now, she will consistently say one thing and then completely do another. She has effectively consistently lied.

      For anyone to now suddenly believe anything she says would be complete and utter folly.

    330. Ken500 says:

      The two faced adulter. Accusing everyone else, The Daily Record nonsense. How now the vow. Just a bunch of parasites, The sychophantic Press. Illegal and dangerous at best. Lie, after, lie, after lie. They just can’t get enough of lying. No research. Pathetic.

      Thank goodness for the internet. Scottish invention led to it. Scotland led the world before the Westminster criminals tried to interfere. They will not get away with it. The waster journalists, Trying to save their own skin. They have changed their tune. The demise of their own industry. The state of it They would rather lose their jobs then tell the truth. No one with any sense believes a word of it. A pack of hacks and stuff of total nonsense.

    331. Phronesis says:

      Child poverty,educational inequality are markers of domestic government policy choice to improve population health and well being .UK’s woeful position on these reliable league tables is a reminder of where WM priorities lie. Poverty is a structural issue for government to address. Scotland has a government who is tackling these wicked problems ,England wants to prop a government who does not. Frozen/zombie/ Brexit will amplify the effects of WM government choice to have the many growing up in hungry,impoverished ,working poor households.
      Another one of many reasons for Scotland to walk away.

      ‘Unicef’s report, An Unfair Start, looks at educational inequalities in 41 of the world’s richest countries, covering inequalities from access to early childhood education to expectations of post-secondary education.
      The UK ranks 16th from the top in terms of educational inequality during the secondary school years, which doesn’t sound too terrible, but the UK come 23rd in inequalities during the primary school years. These are depressing scores for the world’s fifth largest economy…
      In 2007, Unicef published its first report on child well-being in rich countries. The UK, shockingly, ranked at the very bottom – with worse child well-being than any other country. There was also shown to be a strong and significant link between a country’s level of income inequality – the gap between rich and poor – and how well children were doing…
      Since then, Unicef has repeated the exercise of comparing rich countries – with reports in 2013 and 2016. Across many dimensions of child well-being, the UK does badly, often outranked by much poorer countries, such as Portugal and Eastern European nations…But we need to be more radical if we want to reduce educational inequalities: turn to solving the deep-seated root causes at their source. This can be done by creating economies where child well-being is a
      central and overarching aim – not something that’s only thought about every few years, when Unicef reveals how future generations are being failed’

    332. HYUFD says:

      Starlaw So you have never seen a Peterhead registered boat in Grimsby?

    333. nycgype says:

      It was quite obvious from the start that there was never any intention to come up with a workable deal. Its been continually kicked into the long grass until the very last minute. The deal on the table could have been concoted the week after the vote. I can’t tell if this process is designed to ensure a hard Brexit or to call the entire thing off due to the ‘crises’ however I lean towards the former.

      Even now they are playing for time. Wasting another few weeks going back to the EU with an unacceptable deal, having it voted down in parliament, replacing the leader. I don’t believe they are that incompetent.

      Is the primary driver protecting their offshore tax havens or protecting their ‘state’ and the resources within it? I think a bit of both. They are expecting indyref2 and will have a strategy to deal with it at the time. Maybe that’s why they are keeping their options open. If they can run out the clock then it’s a hard Brexit and they think they can thwart independence. If indyref2 looks likely whether by a popular vote or the dissolution of the union then they call the whole thing off, or just extend the transition period so nothing changes and they can accuse the SNP of calling it at the worst time. It’s a game of chicken.

      I know some advocate blind faith in NS to do exactly the right thing but I don’t think it’s that simple. There will never be a right time. It’s not an exact science. We just need to hope the SNP aren’t outflanked the minute it’s called. The UK government will be ready to protect their state above all else.

      All the work in the background to lay the groundwork for the dissolution of the Acts of Union is a masterstroke as it may well come to that.

    334. Nana says:

      Have this confirmed by a source close to the whips office. They are heading back to SW1. Source tells me it must now be likely that confidence vote happening. “Got to be close if not there already”

    335. Nana says:

      Sky sources: All government whips have been told to cancel any engagements today and return to London as a source close to the whip’s office says a no confidence vote in the Prime Minister is now “likely”

    336. TheItalianJob says:

      Thanks for the Live stream link and heads up.

      @Dr Jim
      Dr Jim says:
      16 November, 2018 at 9:05 am
      To hell with Brexit the Union’s more important.

      I’ve being saying and thinking that for a while now ever since the snap GE last year.

      Torcuil is a Unionist moutpiece for the corrupt MSM.

      I never go near anything he writes.

    337. Ottomanboi says:

      This draft divorce doc. was confected by English functionaries with England’s interests in mind.
      It has nothing to offer a country that did not vote to quit the EU. It is not worth the hot air of even discussing it.
      A constitutional crisis is certain. The SNP leadership ought to be ready to exploit and take max advantage of that.
      This mess is probably the best chance we will ever have of securing our goal. The UK and its agencies should be offered sufficient rope to hang itself, and no sentimental remorse. Good riddence to the British straitjacket. Clear your minds guys, this should, provided we have a forceful, assertive SNP, get very turbulent.

    338. TheItalianJob says:


      The Tories AND LABOUR are a bunch of total liars, in every way shape and form. The lies they tell are outstanding but they always get found out. Their unionist lies always get found out. It is a wonder why they bother. Looks like they are not bothered jumping the sinking ship before they are pushed.

      There fixed that for you.

    339. Valerie says:

      @ Nana

      It’s now running on Sky ticker tape. Everyone return, cancel engagements. No confidence vote now “likely”.

    340. Ken500 says:

      Stop lying. Someone please clear the trolls cluttering up the site. This is an Independence supporting site. Not for trolls and rocks under the bridge.

      Peterhead harbour is becoming the site for renewables and CCS. Decommissioning. New fish market being built and expanding,, Some fishermen are determined to ruin their own industry. Not using bigger nets with grants and support for bigger quotas.

      SNP policy. Conservation to maintain the industry. Working well with some representation. Richard Lochhead. Until some ignorant incompetents decided to believe Tory lies again. Vote for the ignorant, incompetents and let the Tories in. Cutting off their nose to spite theur face. Regrets their are a few. Too many to mention. The skilled labour are departing to better climes.

      Scotland is half empty. Needs some more people. After stagnating for years under Westminster policies. The population has only grow since Devolution 2000. 0.2Million. Now people are departing once again because of Westminster total inadequate ignorance. The SNP Gov are doing all they can to protect Scotland from Tory/unionist ignorant, incompetent policies. The people have to give support once again. To stop people being chucked out. The Tory/unionist height of ignorance and maliciousness.

      Brexit will damage the NE the most in the whole of Britain. Especially the Oil & Gas sector, The Tory high taxes have ruined it. 40%. Brexit could further damage it. No skilled workers etc. More high taxes and a low pound. Less investment.and more expensive. High Oil,prices with no production does not benefit anyone. It just puts up prices with no alternatives. Makes goods and services inaccessible.

    341. TheItalianJob says:

      Gove not resigning.

    342. Petra says:

      Craig Murray: ‘Goodbye, and Thanks for all the Fish.’

      …”Which is why the Political Declaration is so very interesting. After several clauses on future UK access to the single market for goods and services, it then contains a very plain indication that in exchange for all this, the fishermen are yet again to be sacrificed to the wider interest.

      Within the context of the overall economic partnership, establishment of a new fisheries agreement on, inter alia, access to waters and quota shares, to be in place in time to be used for determining fishing opportunities for the first year after the transition period.

      Either alone, or even more so in the context of the whole document, there is no doubt at all what this means. It is therefore interesting, that conspicuous by their absence among the Tory resignations this morning, are David Mundell and Ruth Davidson, who had both advertised they would resign in precisely this case. But we already knew they are people of no honour.”..



    343. Terence callachan says:

      Hey, all you Scottish independence supporters, take a big breath, calm down, we are all on the same side, if you disagree with something that a fellow independence supporter says on here , say so in a nice way, there is too much aggression too much nasty attitude ,it’s not necessary, as the old expression in Scotland says ” if you can’t say it nicely don’t say it at all “.
      Remember that if you use bad language people just think you are not very bright and are unable to come up with appropriate alternative words.
      After Scottish independence is achieved we will have many more disagreements around how we shape and progress our beautiful country to make it a place that our beautiful people deserve and we will have to accept that there will still exist a left ,centre, and right wing stance on politics amongst us.
      That’s life, we can achieve what is best for the well being of people but we must ensure that we carry people with us and don’t alienate them.
      When an opinion is given on here that you don’t agree with it’s easy to explain why ,in a nice way,be reasonable and you will have a better chance of more people participating.
      Roll on Scottish independence.
      I’m wearing my Scottish independence badges EVERY day now, I didn’t in the past because I recognise there are many who cling to the British state even though the British state is slowly killing off their country and I don’t want to upset them any more than they will be when Scottish independence comes, we will welcome them and prove to them that their country is vibrant creative caring and profitable, much more so than the British state ever was to Scotland.

    344. Sinky says:

      The Unionist mantra is that the fall in oil price has caused Scotland to have a greater deficit than the UK, and this makes sense until you start to realise that oil revenues didn’t fall by the same amount everywhere else in the world.

      Why does Norway earn more tax from oil than UK?

      And we need to keep making George Kerevan’s point that if a Scottish government taxed oil at the 2010 UK levels, when oil price was about the same as to-day but operating costs have reduced to under $15 a barrel, this would bring in £billion a year and slash GERS deficit by almost 50%. The interest GERS charges us for interest on UK national debt amounts to over £3bn a year and accounts for another 25% of the GERS “deficit”.

      We need to get these facts out in the press, phone ins and social media long before the next Indy Ref campaign starts in earnest.

    345. manandboy says:

      Clear analysis – a very rare thing in the Brexit era.

    346. jfngw says:

      BBC Scotland and the SFF a bond that is unbreakable. What hold do these five millionaire families have over BBC Scotland?

      It is the only story, they believe, that can be pushed which puts the Tories in good light in Scotland. It is to be presented at every opportunity, the other 99% of Scottish industry is ignored. As the rest of Scotland’s industry is destroyed the BBC in Scotland will point to fishing and declare Brexit a success for Scotland.

      We need a broadcaster that reports on Scotland from Scotland’s viewpoint, not from a Labour and Tory agenda.

    347. Sinky says:

      To clarify, If a Scottish government taxed oil at the 2010 UK levels, when oil price was about the same as to-day but operating costs have HALVED to under $15 a barrel, this would bring in SIX BILLION POUNDS a year and slash the GERS deficit by almost 50%.

    348. Ken500 says:

      The muck up. They are collapsing by the minute. Folk can’t keep up with it. Looks like the Tories be gone sooner rather than later, A total collapse of Westminster Gov. Even sooner rather than rxoected. Serves them right the self seeking imbeciles. They were warned so many times of the consequences of their actions.

      What an embarrassment. Chaos. More self seeking Labour incumbents, Time to go edging forward. Another Indyref. The Westminster unionist imbeciles played like a fiddle. They will not be fiddling any of Scotland’s books and resources for much longer. The unionist parties liars could find themselves up in court to pay for their crimes. If there is any justice. Put them in the dock.

    349. Bobp says:

      R s mcoll giving away free copies of the sun in ayr this morning, which a lot of people were declining, myself included. Managed to get my national though.

    350. Luigi says:

      Terence callachan says:

      16 November, 2018 at 9:50 am

      Hey, all you Scottish independence supporters, take a big breath, calm down, we are all on the same side, if you disagree with something that a fellow independence supporter says on here , say so in a nice way, there is too much aggression too much nasty attitude ,it’s not necessary, as the old expression in Scotland says ” if you can’t say it nicely don’t say it at all “.
      Remember that if you use bad language people just think you are not very bright and are unable to come up with appropriate alternative words.
      After Scottish independence is achieved we will have many more disagreements around how we shape and progress our beautiful country to make it a place that our beautiful people deserve and we will have to accept that there will still exist a left ,centre, and right wing stance on politics amongst us.
      That’s life, we can achieve what is best for the well being of people but we must ensure that we carry people with us and don’t alienate them.
      When an opinion is given on here that you don’t agree with it’s easy to explain why ,in a nice way,be reasonable and you will have a better chance of more people participating.
      Roll on Scottish independence.
      I’m wearing my Scottish independence badges EVERY day now, I didn’t in the past because I recognise there are many who cling to the British state even though the British state is slowly killing off their country and I don’t want to upset them any more than they will be when Scottish independence comes, we will welcome them and prove to them that their country is vibrant creative caring and profitable, much more so than the British state ever was to Scotland.

      Well said, Terence.

      No need for people to vent their frustrations with aggressive, hateful words from behind the safety of their laptops.

      And a message to the lurkers and closet supporters:

      We stay polite, but it is time for us all to come out. Stop hiding and start chatting to your friends, relatives and neighbours. If you have difficulties breaking the Indy Ice with folk – no problem – just wear a YES badge, hat, T-shirt etc. Come out and show your support in front of everyone. The indy discussions (and support) you receive will surpise you. Be brave, folks. Scotland needs you to come out now.

      Time to take a stand – it will be less scary than you think. 🙂

    351. Ken500 says:

      In 2010 Oil prices were $120. Nearly twice what they are now. The tax was 70% Osbourne and D. Alexander raised it 11% (£2Billion) to 80%+ in the 2010 Budget. That started the decline of investment. Along with the price falling. The Oil producers could not produce with the combination of the higher (illegal) tax rate. They could not cover costs and make a profit, Then the price started falling, A double whammy. Struck by Westminster Gov ignorant incompetents..

      The oil producers attopped exploration halting production. The Tories did not take down the tax quickly enough. When Oil prices had fallen 75%. The tax was 62% Totally untenable. There was no way to maintain exploration, Drilling bore holes – further exploration. With prices lower and taxes higher. It was not sustainable production.

      Scotland lost thousands of jobs and revenues because of Westminster total ignorance, They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Osbourne was creeping in and out of Aberdeen incognito. Interfering but not taking down Oil taxes quick enough.

      Cameron was flying in on airforce jets and navy helicopters. It gave him a taste of the high life, He ordered a £10Million? jet. Still in commission. The imbeciles (DUP) are flying round having shots in it. Breaking all UK Law. Illegally sanctionig and starving people. Arlene Dobbs et al no longer look impressed. Perks , bribery and corruption turned out not to work. The screws are out alone with the tallons. To secure the decay. The stitch up continues in every way.

      The Oil & Gas sector is like a giant furnace. Once it is shut down (slowly) It takes ages to build up again. Exploration and production are related to price. When the price is low the taxes should be lower. When the prices is higher the taxes should be higher. Obviously the taxes should be highef when the price is higher to gain more income out of it. It is a balancing act. Just like any other industry.

      Exploration and production are related to price (costs covered/profit) and taxation. Tax it higher as the Tories have done when prices are lower, reduces exploration and production. The costs and some profit need to be covered. Or there is no production business.

      Scotland also benefits from worldwide contracts. Most of these profits can be accured to London HQ’s. They must be UK based to receive licences. The profits can go elsewhere, £Billion lost from Scotland.

    352. Famous15 says:

      May to Gove “So you have a cunning plan even more cunning than a plan by the Professor of Cunning at Oxford University?”

      PFFFHHHRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEE over the top! (Rule Brittania plays and fades to silence)

    353. Golfnut says:

      @ Sinky.

      Oil and gas revenues.
      I read an article, not that long ago, it was done I think by one of the unions just after those massive lay offs in the industry. BBC etc, going big on industry running at a loss. I can’t remember all the details, but the union where quite candid about the aggressive tax avoidance policies of the big Corporations. Coupled with that was the fact, as stated by them, that the UK treasury had allowed the company’s to keep corporation tax which amounted to around £27 billion. To put that into perspective, corporation tax is charged net profit, not gross, and I believe that’s set at 30%. BBC and STV reported the figures for oil as running at a loss.
      They also highlighted that shell had paid £2.7 Billion in tax to Norway and handed out £11 Billion in dividends to shareholders. That’s just one company paying more tax to Norway than the oil industry paid to the UK. Mind you it did give the media a field on Scotland oil bad.
      I will try and find it, maybe someone reading this has it already.

    354. Cubby says:


      With respect please do not give credence to the Gers crap. There is no deficit. Your post talking about slashing the deficit legitimises it. I refer you to the Wings post on the matter.


    355. mike cassidy says:

      From the ‘Common Green’ article

      <b Post-2020, if the UK has not built the infrastructure required to go it alone outside the EU, it may then bilaterally agree an extension of the transition period with the EU. If the UK feels that it is ready to walk away then it cannot do so unilaterally. It must be by agreement with the EU.

      The weirdness of this is best grasped by a thought experiment.

      Imagine a Scottish independence agreement with ruk that gave ruk such power.

    356. mike cassidy says:

      From the ‘Common Green’ article

      ” Post-2020, if the UK has not built the infrastructure required to go it alone outside the EU, it may then bilaterally agree an extension of the transition period with the EU. If the UK feels that it is ready to walk away then it cannot do so unilaterally. It must be by agreement with the EU.”

      The weirdness of this is best grasped by a thought experiment.

      Imagine a Scottish independence agreement with ruk that gave ruk such power.

    357. Cubby says:


      “Has caused Scotland to have a greater deficit than the UK”

      Again with respect please stop posting comments that give credence to GERS. If you do not understand that GERS is just Britnat propaganda go and read the Wings post on GERS.

      I find it disappointing and very annoying that posts that give credence to GERS from independence supporters still turn up on Wings.


    358. What is it about these arrogant Tory invertebrates who think their opinions are so important – Gove, Davidson, Mundell and the 12 other Scottish tractors. They issue a lot of hot air and then lack the courage of their convictions.

      In other professions it would be called earning money under false pretences.
      Gove is a shape-shifter, changing chameleon-like to suit whatever direction the wind is blowing from.

      In his weakest moment, whilst refusing to resign and explaining that, yes, he has no principles, he tries to have us think that he believes that he can still change T May’s mind and effect a better deal for the UK. Been reading too many Marvel comics Mr. Gove.

      Everything about you is an embarrassment to Scotland along with your two fellow wind-bags Davidson and Mundell.

      Come to think of it, haven’t heard much from the other Scottish Tory WM carpet-baggers in the last 24 hours.
      Jackson Carlaw said yesterday he was keeping the seat warm for Davidson’s return. Get up off your bahookie Carlaw and start fighting for Scotland!
      if any one of these Tories had the passion and intelligence of Nicola and the love of their country, Scotland would not be in the danger that she is now facing.
      Bunch of spineless, chinless imbeciles. (Apologies to any normal, spineless, chinless imbeciles reading this)

    359. starlaw says:

      hyfud 9:22


    360. Breeks says:

      You know, just for giggles, I might go out and join the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party, just to get an invite to their Christmas Party, turn up early, and fk about with the seating plan.

      Would that make me a bad person? I’d be free for a fantastic “Journey to Yes” biopic afterwards… 😉

    361. Nana re Article 50 revocation

      Interesting to note that WM is still trying to fight the article 50 case – leave no stone unturned.

      Lady Hale is one of the Scottish Judges, don’t know about the other two. Hopefully they uphold the Court of Sessions decision.

      However, if you read the Hansard excerpt, the case is sort of referred to and dismissed by the PM.
      The next question belongs to Joanna Cherry and T may’s answer to that query contains this excellent quote which may answer the Supreme court challenge….

      “..It is not the case that Northern Ireland will be indefinitely under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. The future relationship that we are negotiating with the European Union will ensure that the United Kingdom is removed from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. If the hon. and learned Lady looks at the proposed governance arrangements, she will see that we are very clear that the court of one party cannot determine matters in relation to another party “. ( my italics)

      Let’s see if that is applicable to the current appeal to Court of Sessions by the WM gov.

      Hoist by one’s own petard perhaps?

    362. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      Just released

      They are absolutely terrified that WM may be able to simply cancel Brexit.

      Funny how they want to be able to unilaterally cancel the backstop but don’t want to be able to unilaterally stop Brexit all together.

      Tories never see the contradictions built into every decision they take. Hypocrisy just doesn’t cover it.

    363. Cubby says:

      Question Time last night

      Claire Perry – Energy Minister- English Britnat Tory – what an obnoxious woman. She said Corbyn is an anti Semite. Uproar in audience. No woolly words – no insinuation. Straightforward clear words. Corbyn should sue her . Shouts from the audience to apologise. She refused. A few nasty Tories in the audience cheered. There are always nasty Tories everywhere. Even on Wings nasty Tories put on display their low life morals. Scum or scumbags – take your pick.

      The Tory party is the nasty party says Theresa May. One of the few occasions she is not lying.

    364. Nana says:


      Jolyon Maugham will be discussing the case on bbc Chris Morris’s prog at 1pm

      see here

    365. Iain mhor says:

      Punched in my numbers on long trend polling analysis and Indy has gone 47% and holding. Woo.

      Anyway, with regards the topic at hand; as has been mentioned regarding Indy, it will come when its wanted. A good friend of mine, way back in 2013, said “The people in Scotland aren’t ready for Independence” I was indignant at the time, but he was correct. You will go old and grey waiting for 60% though.
      What we can see and hope for is a groundswell. When parity is reached and holds (47%) then people become ready. The “idea” has become normalised. In the same way Labour or Tory, or immigration and fascism or austerity and capitalism. It is a side of a coin to flip. It is normal to choose, one of the choices is not an aberration.
      Xenophobia has become normalised in the UK, Fascism also, Austerity, persecution of the weak and naturally their corrollaries are also normalised and not only in the UK.
      I describe ‘Normalism’ as meaning part of the natural duality which trends everywhere across all topics. All topics are not totally “polarising” there are always edge cases. Within the “edges” is where evolution occurs. Usually around 6-10% I note. Pick any subject and ‘duality’ falls out. The majority for each side believes their view ‘normal’ and a percentage choose and frequently switch sides. It scales.

      On the subject of Xenophobia as it relates to Brexit; my take is that the fear which drove it has subsided because Xenophobia has been normalised, not just in the UK. Since Brexit was mooted, the hard right rise of fascism and Xenophobia has reared its head yet higher across the globe, but for our purposes, across Europe. Brexit was merely another facet. The Xenophobic Brexiteers no longer feel isolated in a UK as the last bastion against the *foreigners” and as a minority even within the UK – For ‘foreigners’ – read “Islam” and the”Darkies” – yes, they still have issue with other ‘johnny foreigners’ but they are frothing a little less about them the more their countries show growing fascism – Yes, I acknowledge there are reasons beyond that for being a Brexiteer, not all Brexiteers are Xenophobes” with a capital “x” many are Independence supporters who seek an Independent Scotland or England at arms length or nowhere near the EU. But that is not really this topic.
      The Xemophobic Brexiteers just wanted their views to be ‘normal’ that has now been achieved. Anything else is secondary.

      How does all the above factor for Scotland and Independence? Well in a bit of a complicated way. There is no natural 99.9% indigenous population of ‘woad wearing Scottish Patriot Independence or Death’ Scots. Had there been, Scotland would have been Independent lang syne. The current population of those favouring Independence has swollen from obscurity to normality. Driven not merely by natural born Scots discovering some inner wellings of independence but from xenophobia.
      Counts ten while howling subsides.

      People move into Scotland because they are fleeing what they perceive to be a worse life. That includes from South of the Border. If that life tries to follow them, they’ll vote against it rather than for an alternative. Subtle difference. There is within a vote for Indy, not merely an inclination for Independence for Scotland ideologically, but to prevent what they abhor. That may be manifold. Money, security, general wellbeing, it is not always all about Independence for Independence sake – many here may well fall into that category, but the No-to-Yes videos show you other reasons.
      The question is, which way is the flow, which ‘normal’ is in the ascendancy? A simplification: let us take the White Settlers which invoke such passion amongst a few posters here – are there more Unionist Tory white settlers or more white settlers trying to escape them? Travel Scotland’s “Lovely and dooce places” and odds are you encounter the former. Walk elsewhere and you encounter the latter.
      Scotland has more of the latter places than the former (oh don’t greet, its true) Extrapolate for other nationalities of your choosing. As for the flow of Scots. Would you consider more Scots flee Scotland or remain? Of those who flee, which should we expect the majority to be, For or against, Unionist or Independents?

      So xenophobia with a small “x” – “Dislike the people where I was, like the people where I am. Vote to keep the people I dislike the hell away from me” The more this form of xenophobia infuses society, the more the concept of Independence becomes normalised. The power to keep these people the hell away from me. That such a glacial turn of Scotland’s population mirrors the glacial rise in support for Independence is no coincidence. Where the cowed and cringed Scots are exposed to independence minded ‘incomers’ as opposed to their fellow Scots lunatics (whom they abhor) the more receptive to the idea they become.
      It is a famiar human trait. The inability to accept advice from those closest but to embrace the same advice from a stranger (It’s weird isnt it? Is it possibly “I know you and think you’re an arsehole, but I know this person and think they’re great…because I haven’t known them for long enough to think they’re also an arsehole”?) I digress.

      Xenophobia as embodied by Brexit is normalised, Unionism is the face of that and Independence is normal -Two sides of a coin with an edge. 47-47 that is two sides 6% is the edge.
      The momentum on the edge tips the coin. If it didn’t you wouldn’t see the global “duality” of humanity. It doesn’t matter whether it is War & Peace, Republican & Democrat, Labour & Tory, Christianity & Islam, Hindu & Buddhist, Tyranny & Democracy, Pineapple on Pizza or not, the preferences flip over the ages.

      Am I arguing that Independence is merely another side of Xenphobia with a capital “X” ? No, that’s not what I’m saying. I took the OP and extrapolated an idea of Brexit as Xenophobic (capital x) tried to discuss where xenophobia (small x) was relevant to Scotland. Also to allow the idea that “Xenophobic Independence Seeking Lunatic Cybernats” comes from a view that sees no distinction.
      It’s meaning being “Prejudice, fear or dislike of people from other countries” – A ‘section’ of Scotland is prejudiced against and dislikes the rule of people from another country (small x) Not fear, prejudice and dislike solely because of race or nationality (capital X) Again the caveat – I do not suggest all Brexiteers are in the latter category!

      Scotland for a long time had only the duality of the UK.
      It was called Unionism and its duality was Labour or Tory.
      Scotland now has Unionism or Independence. It is why the slide in Labour, the morphing of the unionist parties. That is not the Duality in Scotland any longer. They must merge to become one face of that duality. Slightly under one half of the whole. The edge is where independence will tip. Independence is normalised. Brexit is a foaming edge currently, where the momentum on the edge favours, I cannot tell you. (@Rock bursts into tears) But I do know that an Independence referendum or Independence tickets are not predicated on seeing 60% it’s predicated on seeing 47% and believing that the “edge” favours you.
      When you become one side of the coin – flip it and may fortune favour the brave

    366. Luigi says:

      Oh naughty naughty!

      I think WM has just realized that the SG hasn’t been idle during the last two years of Brexit mayhem. Nicola and co have been busy, quitely digging legal traps and setting constitutional spikes around a specially prepared killing zone that the Britnats are about to charge straight into. They will be destroyed by their own momentum. 🙂

    367. Valerie says:

      It’s surely obvious to Scots who is running the govt at WM. Mogg and the DUP. Are Unionists really happy with them as puppet masters?

      On the one hand, we can’t lose from a new PM, as it will be more Right Wing than May. On the other, can you imagine the utter horror of the EU watching this, as well as the wider, sane world?

      Mogg made a drama in HoC at her statement, then called meeting of the ERG, then reeled off potential new PMs, so he must feel pretty confident of offing her.

      I wonder if May, at the end of the day, just chickened out of the catastrophe of No Deal, and thought fhis is make or break for her but just wouldn’t go for No Deal.

    368. Cubby says:

      When Scotland votes to terminate the UK it will never ever vote to go back in union with England again.

      If the UK or England leaves the EU it will eventually vote to go back in.

      The UK Union is toxic for Scotland.

    369. Brian Powell says:

      On this, “UK Supreme Court says will consider government appeal in Brexit reversal case”.

      Joanna Cherry raise the issue of Scotland’s independent legal system at Westminster. She said the independence of the Scottish legal system was enshrined or protected, not by the devolution settlement, but by the 1707 treaty. interfere with the independence and the Treaty was broken.

    370. Valerie says:

      @ Meg, agree about Gove, I actually think his not resigning, is simply to stay close to his enemy. Who can forget him and Johnson the day after they “won”.

      I posted yesterday on Twitter “What’s the betting Labour shit the bed, in the face of an open goal”

      We are not disappointed in them either, headless chickens, folk screaming “Where’s Corbyn?”

      Utterly contemptible. The EU have made it clear, they have drawn their line. They have themselves to protect now.

    371. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Essexexile at 9.52

      Do not be deceived. Opinion on independence has moved hugely. From around 30% in 2012 it is now at around a steady 50% and -more important – firm opposition to independence is now only around 30%.

    372. Macart says:


      Shhhhhhhh. 😎

      Westminster will be Westminster and will do as its nature demands. Which right now, is about tearing itself apart under the weight of its own political practices and hypocrisy. They’re doing a grand job of highlighting both for the public. Time to sit back for five minutes and let them get on with it.

      In other news? This is worth reading.

      Also? Apparently 48 letters received and rumours of no confidence vote running amok.

      Just time to go out and stock up.

    373. Thepnr says:

      If the Tories choose to have a vote of no confidence in Theresa May before any meaningful vote takes place I wonder who would want the job.

      Who would want to be PM and face the possibility of defeat in any meaningful vote in the coming weeks? If they have this confidence vote now then there is a very good chance she will win and that means she cannot be challenged again for at least another year even if she went on to lose the meaningful vote and her Brexit plan is thrown out.

      Turmoil set to continue, there’s one certainty and it’s that all these comings and goings are guaranteed to do your head in.

    374. Cactus says:

      Two weeks remaining to go till Scotland’s X day…

      Lot’s of stuff to happen inbetween (eg the 27th)

      Keep yer diary free for Saint Andrew’s day.

      We may have reason to meet & march.


    375. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Sinky at 9.54

      As the McCrone Report (and the late John Jappy) pointed out with the oil revenues Scotland would have no deficit. In fact it would have a “chronic surplus”.
      The supposed deficit we have is largely fantasy anyone,including all sorts of spending commitments that would have nothing to do with how an independent Scotland would order its finances. Deficits are not debts. They are the potential differences between current spending plans and estimated future revenues.

    376. Nana says:

      Nicola says

      This is outrageous. My office got a call around 6pm last night to offer a meeting this morning – purpose not clear. I wasn’t prepared to cancel my constituency commitments at such short notice for @scotgov to yet again have to hear empty platitudes rather than be listened to.

    377. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      My last post
      For “anyone” read “anyway”. Sorry

    378. manandboy says:

      Each part of the UK clearly want and more importantly need different things, with that in mind:

      POLL: Do you think we should explore the option of breaking up the UK and give full control to the people of England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland?
      #BrexitChaos #brexit #UK

      After 4461 votes:
      Yes – 83%
      No – 14%
      Maybe – 4%

    379. Thepnr says:


      The link posted earlier on “what happens next” is an excellent article laying out all the possibilities.

    380. Ian Mhor

      It’s not just that the idea of Indy has become normalised, the young cannot understand why the Union ever happened in the first case!

      Any positive memories of the UK pre WW1 and 2 being even remotely a place where Scotland had some respect and benefit e.g. nationalised industries then the establishment of the NHS and welfare state have all evaporated ( except SNHS) since Thatcher, so today’s teenagers have no loyalty to any ‘better together’ concept.
      For all of my lifetime, Scotland has been jeered, deprived, cheated, etc…

      My grandparents generation struggled to make sure that their children would get an education and not have to go into the steel, ships, mills and mines and they and my parents generation fought in the two wars of the 1900’s. They believed in the UK. We respected them but gradually came to make excuses for them because times have changed.

      Clearly, recently, the gloves are off now and WM makes no attempt to hide its contempt for our country.

      Independence is now seen as the natural way forward for many people and that is daily increasing. We will be the generation to bring it to pass.

    381. Robert Louis says:

      We know that the Scottish claim of right is fully valid and recently re-affirmed by (of all places!) Westminster. That is that it is the sovereign right of the people of Scotland to determine the nature of how they are governed.

      Now, folks say, we cannot have UDI or independence, because the people of Scotland have not explicitly by vote or referendum said that is what they want. So we need either an election or referendum. OK.

      However, are we not missing something here? The Scottish Government has a clear and democratic full mandate to remain within the EU. Indeed every single constituency in Scotland voted for it. Does the claim of right not apply. The people of Scotland have decided they want their form of government to include the EU.

      Does that not mean the Scottish Government have a wholly legitimate mandate (from the results of the EU referendum), under the Scottish constitutional settlement (which includes the claim of right), to take whatever steps are necessary to keep Scotland within the EU.?

      Indeed, if the Scottish Government did NOT take such steps, then they themselves would be in full breach of the Scottish claim of right.??

      You cannot claim the mandate for one constitutional change (indy), but not another (stay in the EU), via the same mechanism. Both are explicitly related to the nature of government the people of Scotland choose.

      This is a serious question. Any folks who are more knowledgable got any ideas?

    382. Valerie says:

      Hoho, more hilarity, word is “Failing Grayling” is to be Brexit Minister.

      Humza just tweeted it.

      It’s whoever is in possession of the lowest IQ, remaining standing.

      Poor EU.

    383. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. SEVERE WEATHER CHARTER.Scottish Government and Trades Unions.

      STV NEWS.

      ” A new charter has been drawn up in a bid to ensure bosses treat their staff fairly if severe weather hits Scotland this winter.

      It has been developed after trade unions reported some workers were asked to travel in dangerous conditions during the ‘beast from the east’ storm earlier this year, while others refused to pay employees who could not make it in because of the heavy snow and white-out conditions.

      Leaders of the Scottish Trades Union Congress worked with the Scottish Government to produce the Fair Work Charter for Severe Weather – which recommends all employers have a policy for dealing with such conditions.

      Economy secretary Derek Mackay said: “During the extreme weather last winter, most employers made sensible and responsible decisions regarding their workers.

      “While many businesses faced challenges, we were encouraged by the flexibility provided to staff.

      ‘It offers a sensible and responsible approach to balancing the safety of workers with service delivery when the weather strikes hard.’

      “However, not all employers had severe weather policies to ensure workers understood what is expected.

      “This is why we have developed this charter, because fair work is good for workers, good for employers and good for Scotland.

      “We look forward to continuing our dialogue with employer organisations to get the Severe Weather Charter into every workplace in Scotland.


    384. manandboy says:

      The avalanche that is Brexit is only halfway down the hill.

      Nicola may only be required to pick up the pieces of what’s left of the former UK. If there’s anything left that is.

    385. Cactus

      why don’t we all just meet up for St. Andrew’s day anyway!!!

    386. Cactus says:

      Hey Meg, sounds groovy…

      Party at Freedom Square or Saint Andrew’s Square 🙂

      Let us make a day and night of it!

      What say you Scotland?

      What say you Glasgow?

    387. LK reporting on the bBC that the 48 letters seem to have been received intact possibly an extra 12 to boot.

      MP’s coy as to whether they have sent in a letter.

    388. Cubby says:

      Dave Mc Ewan-Hill @12.14pm

      “The supposed deficit we have is largely fantasy”

      I agree with all of your post except the above statement – I would remove the word LARGELY.

      The Wings post on GERS gets repeated every year. I suggest it needs posting every month.

      The Britnat propaganda seeps into even independence supporters. Only an independent country can have a deficit. There are no Scottish gov bonds on the money markets. Only the UK has a deficit. Only the UK has run up nearly £2 Trillion of UK national debt.

      Britnats lie and they lie all the time and they lie about everything. Their policy is keep on lying and sooner or later people will start quoting the lies as fact.

    389. Ken500 says:

      Before 2010 when the incompetent, ignorant, useless Tories came in. The Oil tax revenues were £10Billion+ a year. Before 2000 Devolution all the accounts were hidden. Kept secret in the Scottish Office. Scotland fleeced at every turn by Westminster criminal activities. Lies and knowingly untruths claiming Scotland was subsided. The accounts kept hidden. Even claims it was impossible to have separate account. A total malicious Westminster unionist fabrication. They borrowed and spent what they liked in the rest of the UK and Scottish revenues were used to pay off the debt. The Barnett Formula. Continued even without the oil revenues. Scotland disadvantaged in every way. £20Billion a year of misappropriation and mismanagement.

      £300Billion+ Oil finances lost and wasted.

      The Westminster unionists operate a total different economic policy in Scotland and the rest of the UK. A total economic centrist policy to benefit London S/E. Totally illegally. Scotland was supposed to be treated equally under the terms of the Act of Union, but is given no respect or consideration. The imbeciles in Westminster do not even understand how the Barnett Formula works and do not care in any case. They are malicious psychopaths. The world is now crumbling around them. Their incompetence exposed for the world to see.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion have cost Scotland and the world dear. Millions mained, killed and displaced. The US/UK (France) dangerous psychopaths.

      The NE voted SNP (Alex) for over nearly forty years and can do again. They saw the meters turning. It is a blip which can be corrected and Independence achieved along with the rest of Scotland. Fifty years of filthy Labour to stop the Tories getting in. The SNP now in authority consistently. Independence support increasing, demographically. Scotland’s place in the world is finally being fully recognised. Scottish invention shaped the modern world. It’s education system second to none.

    390. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan-Hill @11.52am

      I have always believed the potential vote for independence is as per the vote for devolution in 1997 approx 70%

      I totally agree with your post. There are 20% who can be convinced. The rest are head in the sand no surrender British till I die. Flat earthers who ignore facts/evidence. It is only the media in Scotland that is preventing the message getting to the 20%.

    391. HYUFD says:

      Petra So you support the Scottish fishermen or want to leave the CFA and have no fishing quotas from the EU then?

    392. jfngw says:

      Looks like quite a bit of manoeuvring with some cabinet members, playing the staunch loyalty card, but I suspect they could vote against May. They have their fall guys in place that have no chance of being PM to challenge her.

      We just await the arrival of Ruth of Orange on her buffalo, suckling her newborn, shouting ‘Cry God for Harry, England, and Saint George!’.

    393. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      The link posted earlier on “what happens next” is an excellent article laying out all the possibilities.

      It is indeed a good article, in so far as it goes. It doesn’t touch one other looming option.

      As we all know the ECJ is being asked whether WM can withdraw A50 unilaterally. If the answer is YES, then that opens another option. I can’t imagine why such a thorough overview failed to include this.

      “The fifth and final option is that, faced with no deal – with neither a renegotiation, nor an election, nor a second referendum proving viable – MPs swallow their scruples and vote for May’s deal, in what they consider to be the national interest.”

      If the ECJ ruled allowing unilateral cancellation, then I would think with the situation described above, then MPs ‘swallowing scruples’ and cancelling Brexit ‘in the national interest’ might be just as likely.

      An option six.

    394. HYUFD says:

      Do Nats back leaving the EU Common Fisheries Policy as Scottish fishermen want?

    395. Cactus says:

      Freedom Square it is then, back by popular demand.

      X day kicks off at 12:00pm high noon.

      Amongst other entertainment, there will be an open mic for poetry and song beneath the bard… and it’s about seasonal time we got the Burns scarf back on Rab (mibbies ah’ll bring me Wings beanie hat along fur Rabbie)

      FREE entry.

      30 November, 2018

    396. Thepnr says:


      Yes, you’re absolutely right of course. Strange commission indeed.

    397. Luigi says:

      The noise grows louder by the day, but we can’t see the whites of their eyes quite yet:

      The Brexit fog of war is particularly dense at the mo. When the dust finally settles, it will be clear to all just who is left standing. 🙂

    398. Cubby says:

      Gove on the telly says it is absoutely vital that we get the best deal for Britain. Note he does not say he supports Mays deal nor does he say that Mays deal is the best.

      Reporting Scotland saying a cabinet minister is insisting that Sturgeon supports Mays deal. So after years of ignoring and shutting out Scotlands FM they want her to support a deal that Mays own cabinet ministers and most of the HoCommons will not support. What a brass neck these people have. The FM has always made her position clear – single market and customs union as a bottom line. So she should just ignore them now.

    399. galamcennalath says:


      Clearly the Tories are keen to keep the unilateral cancellation option out of public discussion, and are pulling every legal (and some probably illegal) string to stop it.

      The Centre for European Reform are a London based ‘think tank’. Perhaps they have been influenced into conveniently ignoring the ‘nuclear option’ of cancelling.

    400. Proud Cybernat says:

      Fud-Face Troll – The fishing industry is way more important to a smaller nation like Scotland than it is to the UK state. The fishing industry to the the UK is entirely expendable as it is of no consequence to it – but that would NOT be the case in an indy Scotland where fishing would be a very important industry.

      As such, indy Scotland Gov would fight tooth and claw for that industry, waaaaayy better than any UK Gov ever will. And if, at the end of the day, we cannot reach an agreement with the EU then we have a national veto to protect our vital interests. UK would NEVER use a veto to protect Scotland’s fishing interests.

      In short, a Scot Gov would not sacrifice our fishing industry upon the altar of London merchant bankers.

    401. yesindyref2 says:

      The United Nations has condemned the British government’s “punitive, mean-spirited and often callous” treatment of the country’s poorest and most vulnerable, in a damning report.

      The UN’s special rapporteur said policies and drastic cuts to social support were entrenching high levels of poverty and inflicting unnecessary misery in one of the richest countries in the world, adding that Brexit was exacerbating the problem.

    402. call me dave says:

      Ah! Suddenly the ECJ is news on Auntie TV now that WM have managed to have their 2nd appeal accepted for consideration. 🙂

      48+ ? Brexiteers now called ‘rebels’ and so it goes.

      May might see off a challenge of no confidence and be safe for a 100 days.

    403. yesindyref2 says:

      Apparently even if the 48 letters are received (and I have my dounts), the no confidence vote wouldn’t be until monday or tuesday next week, so can’t see why whips would be recalled for that today.

    404. Nana says:

      If you missed the livestream earlier

      The UN Special Rapporteur’s findings are damning

    405. Nana says:

      Re the livestream mentioned in my last post, it is still available to view here

    406. Cactus says:

      Hey People of Glasgow and Burns enthusiasts ~

      As an idea, aye would Love to go hear people regularly reciting Burns afore his statue on the Square… a chair, a table and a glass of something.

      Bet you our tourists would flock to it too.

      Have a think about that Visit Glasgow…

      And in an instance, awe wiz dark.

    407. Call me dave

      The three judges hearing the Appeal are all Scottish and Lady Hale is the President.

      Make of that what you will…

    408. Breeks says:

      Nana says:
      16 November, 2018 at 11:28 am

      Jolyon Maugham will be discussing the case on bbc Chris Morris’s prog at 1pm..

      Damn and blast, I’ve missed this… Anybody catch it?

    409. wull2 says:

      If there is a GE the SNP should say the SNP will stand on a indepnsance ticket. A vote for the SNP is really a vote for indepnsance.
      Scotland have nothing to lose, WM does mot listen to us anyway.

      Vote SNP/SNP or YES,

    410. Nana says:

      Angus MacNeil says

      My letter to Theresa May.. Scotland will decide but useful to know her preference for independence- Referendum or General Election?
      read the letter here

      That’s all for now

    411. call me dave says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Aye but we live in interesting times. Fingers X’d 🙂

      I think I hear the distant squawk of tory chickening out deciding or not who should be the stalking horse challenger.

      Lots of I’ll haud yer jaicket…etc. Sounds as if they’re struggling to get the 48 letters + a significant number more when they need a simple majority of 315 in a vote…quite an ask.

      Anyhoo! It will all unfold in due course.

      WCC Chess round 6 soon 🙂 facinating….really. LOL

    412. Breeks says:

      Nana says:
      16 November, 2018 at 2:04 pm
      Angus MacNeil says

      My letter to Theresa May.. Scotland will decide but useful to know her preference for independence- Referendum or General Election?
      read the letter here

      Ha ha ha. He’s a wee scamp! But if I’d sent a letter like that, I’d have been sure to mark it with the ring of a coffee cup too. Lol

    413. Dr Jim says:

      I’m not so sure it’s about how many are FOR Independence now as to how many fewer there are against it, so instead of worrying about when the YES % is going up maybe we should be looking at the NO % going down

      The only people who are making the noise now are the usual Britnat same names but the actual people who go out and vote aren’t being energised into supporting them in the same numbers

    414. Daisy Walker says:

      Isn’t it interesting that the process to clarify if WM can unilaterally cancel Article 50 is being ignored by the Peoples Vote brigade.

      Almost as if it doesn’t fit the narrative of pushing the SG / SNP to get tied up in supporting the PV.

      I enjoy reading Kirsty Hughes’ articles. I admire her academic credentials, but I’m convinced she is an English/British Nationalist in liberal clothing.

      On a personal note, I’m truly fed up with the attitude from really nice, decent, empathetic, English people (of whom there are many) – that for some reason, Scottish Voters are supposed to offset the damage done to the UK, by the majority of the English electorate. We are not the UK’s voting conscience.

      If the UK ‘supreme’ court is agreeing to review this appeal – in contravention of the Treaty of Union terms – then it is Huge, it also means that probably the most effective (and democratic – in a westminster kind of way ) means of cancelling Brexit is now seriously in line for being rigged.

      You would think all the PV/Remainer’s would be all the way behind supporting the legal proceedings to clarify if we can cancel A50. Instead it is a byline.

      I wonder if the Supreme Court overrules this appeal, it enables the Scot Gov to apply to the international court re breach of treaty of union.

      Meanwhile, the stushie over May, will continue for a couple of weeks, while the Brexit clock is ticking.

      The (Tory leadership) outcome doesn’t really matter, its all about burning the clock down, for a no deal brexit.

      So for now all the attention is on May’s Premiership, then when that goes (about a month from now) it will be on who the new PM should be, then when that goes, it will be a call for a GE and a cross party Remain group.

      (You kind of have to hope the EU refuse to negotiate any further when this deal goes. Clarify a no deal, which we can then present to the public, in all its badness.)

      Once we’re out 29/3/19, chaos in the streets, state of emergency, Holyrood closed down. Jobs a good’n (for the Britnats).

      Hey ho.

      Remember folks its all about protecting the 1%’s ill gotten gains in the tax havens. That’s a mountain of wealth accumulated over 100’s of years, the slave trade, the spice trade, the Chinese Opium trade, asset striping entire continents during the Colonies of empire.

      For them to be Identified, and taxed!!!! No way. And remember, they don’t just perceive themselves as having a god given right to run the country, for them, their interests ARE the country.

      Identification and quantification – what’s the betting that if this was done, the Indian Government would seriously consider going after some of that ill gotten wealth, and likely have a pretty good legal case to make for it. As it stands at the moment, during the Raj, unidentified Brits, mismanaged the continent and all the wealth just disappeared.

      Second down the list is the ready cash. And that is Scotland. As vast as our oil supplies are, it is vastly smaller than the Tax Haven accumulation. They cannot afford to lose us.

      And third on the list is the sweetie money – privatisation of the NHS, etc. Sweeties and baubles for the good boys and girls who will do the dirty work.

      That’s the establishment game plan folks. The tories, labour, lib dems – they all have their different parts to sing, but its the one song, and the one game plan.

      Unless they can negotiate a way of safeguarding the tax havens – then a no deal is the only destination they can face.

      The leverage they had, was by threatening to trash the UK economy, it would hit the EU’s. A big chunk of that will by now be offset by all the companies re-locating from the UK to mainland Europe.

      Oh dear. I think we can expect things to get very gung ho in the near future.

      I hope we get out soon.

    415. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I wonder if the Supreme Court overrules this appeal, it enables the Scot Gov to apply to the international court re breach of treaty of union.”

      Which may explain why all 3 SC judges hearing the UKGov appeal are all Scots who should fully understand Scots law and its ‘protection’ under the Treaty of Union.

    416. yesindyref2 says:

      @Daisy Walker
      I think Kirsty Hughes is just very pro EU, without regard for Scotland or the UK, that’s the impression I get. If she can help to keep the UK in the EU, she will. If she can help to keep Scotland in the EU, she will. Simple as that, really.

    417. manandboy says:


      Green energy subsidies are fuelling the rise of poultry mega-farms across Northern Ireland, with owners accused of contaminating sensitive habitats with emissions from chicken faeces.

      An alliance of agri-food companies enlisted the support of Northern Ireland politicians to unlock an estimated £800m in subsidies for contractors. This has paved the way for industry expansion at the expense of the environment, according to an investigation by the not-for-profit journalism group SourceMaterial.

      Northern Ireland’s mega-farms, including Moy Park’s contracted farmers, are due to benefit from about £830m of electricity billpayer funds for anaerobic digestion. This subsidy level level is four times higher than in any other part of the UK.

      Stormont also approved a £12m loan scheme to build two large biogas digesters, including one specifically designed for Moy Park’s poultry waste.

      The SourceMaterial investigation also identified alleged scammers who abuse the system by claiming tens of millions of pounds in subsidies for biogas plants that do not appear to exist.

      Stormont’s power-sharing deal collapsed over a separate green energy controversy – a renewable heat incentive (RHI) scheme, which degenerated into the cash-for-ash scam in which farmers heated empty sheds.”

      NI just loves being the same as the rest of the UK. Is it any wonder.

    418. Ottomanboi says:

      Hey guys anybody heard from Nicola? Maybe she too has an internal battle on her hands about ‘what must be done’, or not. Waiting to see how this Brexit fiasco pans out in London is rather feeble. Scotland expects!

    419. yesindyref2 says:

      Okey-doke, I was a bit puzzled about Lady Hale being a “Scottish judge” because she isn’t and hasn’t been, but she is President of the UKSC. The other two are Lord Reed and Lord Hodge, both of whom have been on the Court of Sessions (Senator of the College of Justice).

      So that’s OK then.

    420. galamcennalath says:

      Re Angus MacNeil ‘s excellent and very timely letter.

      Wonder if May realises she should put considerable thought into how she answers that.

    421. yesindyref2 says:

      The usual practice for that, by the way, is that other judges (including the President) of the UKSC, will defer to the Scottish judges, the two of them, on matters concerning Scots Law. I guess the President would keep in mind UK Law – if there’s any contradiction.

      Which hopefully there will be! I think.

    422. Cactus says:

      Here’s a scenario…

      Imagine Scotland was already an international independent country and equal member of the European Union, as the ‘rUK’ are in the process of leaving…

      We would be listening to our radios and watching from our televisions of their plight to extract themselves, all because the Tory politicians couldnae eat their cake (via our own independent broadcasting network.) We wouldnae be affected or in the situation we are now and it would all be reported by Scotland as other countries business, as in “in other news”.

      We would be looking on aghast at their political lunacy.

      Sliding doors.

    423. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting factoid, looking up the Scottish Judges:

      Like all Scottish judges on the Supreme Court, he has sat in both the Court of Session and High Court of Justiciary,

      Seems to me there’s a potential conflict over Scots Law as we’ve already seen in the Miller case, Salmond for instance didn’t accept the UKSC. If I was the UKSC I would seriously want to avoid having to go into that at all, and I think we saw that in the Miller appeal.

      Best thing for the UKSC would be Scotland’s Independence, then there’d never be a potential constitutional and political conflict, something courts really don’t like at all. Apart, maybe, from a broken-down negotation over the Independence terms which I don’t think would be in either side’s interest (takes years), except for fairly minor details like the difference between £100 million and £200 milllion for something.

      Hence I think, the private review by the 3 judges, as well as the time factor of course. I know which way I’d decide if I could – let the case go to the ECJ. Anyone for lunch?

    424. galamcennalath says:

      Cactus says:

      We would be looking on aghast at their political lunacy.

      I’ve often thought that if Scotland were outside looking into England as a genuinely foreign country, we really wouldn’t have a very high opinion of the goings on!

      Illegal wars, pseudo democracy, maltreatment of its poorest and most vulnerable, industrial scale money laundering, rich getting richer, and still probably full of exceptionalism.

      The flip side might of course be that ordinary English folks looked north and could see a better way of running and organising a state.

    425. Collie says:

      English Brexiteers shouting about how they want to set up free trade deals with the rest of the world.

      WTF are England going to trade, because after Brexit England will turn into a dust bowl. And the only thing that will be going through the place will be tumbleweed.

    426. Frank Gillougley says:

      – here be it a very simple tuppence worth

      I suspect that ‘the deal’ will not gather sufficient political momentum and numbers behind it to get passed in Parliament, whether or not May survives next week, or thereafter.

      Forget all the politicking – the EU isn’t interested any more. They’ll have to move on with Europe. The very idea that govey gove, or another grouping can go back and cherry pick further re NI etc, is not going to be entertained by Europe full stop.

      So, as far as I can see, this juggernaut of the Brexiteers making is unstoppable and careering towards the cliffs of a no-deal brexit.

      The real actuality of that is just not conscionable.

    427. Cubby says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 12.23pm

      Well said. Great post. Never ever give up on Scottish independence. To those who say if we lose Indyref2 it is all over. I say no it won’t be over and it never will. To many of the younger generation want Scotland to be a normal independent country. The cringe is built in to some Scots but it is dying out and never existed in a lot of the younger generation.

      Independence will happen. Time for England to stand on its own two feet instead of looting other countries resources.

    428. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Louis,

      I think the union ship has already been holed below the waterline, it struck a massive iceberg when they passed the withdrawal and the Queen gave Royal Ascent.

      No permission was given by the people of Scotland,permission was refused by the Scottish Parliament and a majority of Scottish MP’s voted against it. On that basis the Queen of Scots, as Scotland’s Head of State should have refused to sign it, or returned the Bill to Parliament to have Scotland excluded from the Bill. It’s a clear breach of the Declaration of Arbroath.

    429. Nana says:

      A bit of ‘light’ reading

      Scotching Brexit?
      Background to the @andywightman case about the unilateral revocability of the Article 50 notification

    430. Indy ref 2 and others…

      Apologies if i have misled about Lady Hale. For some reason, I thought she was a Scottish judge – checked the other two but not her as I was mistaken.

    431. manandboy says:

      Ian Dunt, forensically precise and reliable as ever, wrestles once more with the logic-defying Brexit tale, but still without reaching a full explanation to match the extraordinary contortions of the Tory governments’ attempts to leave the European Union.

      A flavour of what he has to say:

      “No-deal is just another lie to add to their tower of lies. It is one more brick of mangled nonsense to add to a city of myths, an endless territory where no reality can ever penetrate. Time does not exist and neither do laws or negotiating partners or trade-offs. And on the rare occasions that these things do intrude, it can all be blamed on Remainers, or Brussels, or the cowardice of those who never believed strongly enough.

      It is not just that they are wrong, or that they are morally and strategically misguided, or that they are moronic, although they are all these things. It is that they are obscenely irresponsible.

      They should at this point be held in disgrace. But instead, for reasons which are impossible to understand, they are never allowed to fail”

    432. Nana says:

      Good grief, they are running on empty

      Amber Rudd returning to cabinet as work and pensions secretary

    433. Ian Foulds says:

      Terence callachan says:
      16 November, 2018 at 9:50 am

      Well said Sir.

    434. jfngw says:

      BBC Scotland website now leading with the Tory agenda, as per yesterdays FMQ’s. If there is no deal it will be the SNP’s fault, not sure how buttoned up the back they think we are. No matter the shambles of Westminster, it will always be somehow turned into SNPbad by the BBC.

      For those I read who think the BBC is changing, I somehow doubt it. Propaganda works by slowly controlling it, ramp up, slow down, continually increasing the story in a controlled manner. Don’t believe I could ever trust the BBC again, they are finished as far as neutrality is concerned.

    435. Nana says:

      Steve Barclay is the new brexit sec.

      Who he??

    436. manandboy says:

      “So although the cliché of the moment is that Brexit is entering the endgame, unlike most clichés this one doesn’t have a kernel of truth.
      The reality is that, whatever happens now, Brexit is only at the end of the beginning.”

      Yep, it’s taken two and a half years to cross the Brexit river. Now we have to cross the Brexit desert.

      Where’s ma camel? Anybody seen ma camel? It’s around here someplace!

    437. frogesque says:

      @ Nana: 4.07

      Think Mhairi Black will eat Amber Rudd for breakfast!

    438. The eu ref., was won by the people who wanted to leave by having more votes than those who wanted to stay that is democracy at work the heckler who was shouting stop brexit was really shouting stop democracy and as for a people’s vote who the heck voted in the eu., ref., was that not people ??? And this talk of crashing out is not true we are leaving and the remainers just can’t accept democracy in action imagine if we in Scotland wanted another vote because we got a Tory gov., we did not vote for these same people would be laughing at us saying how undemocratic we were

    439. wull2 says:

      I think the EU knew exactly what it was doing with NI, it will be in a position it cannot leave without the EU permission.

      When Scotland leaves, we will have a easy direct rout to the EU.
      Vote SNP or YES

    440. geeo says:

      Here is a wee thought.

      If Scotland is as subsidised as WM claims constantly, they should demand Scotland leaves the Union immediately so they can save that much vaunted £15bn they so kindly ‘give’ us sponging Scots.

      Brexiters are going mental over the £39bn divorce bill, but according to WM propaganda, they could get nearly half that back by ending the union.

      Its almost as if the “Scottish are Subsidised by England” mantra, is not entirely true…who knew huh ?

    441. Ian Foulds says:

      Blair Paterson says:
      16 November, 2018 at 4:45 pm

      In short Mr. Paterson, are you saying we in Scotland should not bother voting and just leave it to the English voters to decide as we shall always be outnumbered?

      What was the point in having a British Parliament, not necessarily a UK – that is a different matter, especially now that the ratio of population between Scotland and England is significantly different to what it was in 1707?

    442. Breeks says:

      Collie says:
      16 November, 2018 at 3:26 pm
      English Brexiteers shouting about how they want to set up free trade deals with the rest of the world.

      WTF are England going to trade, because after Brexit England will turn into a dust bowl. And the only thing that will be going through the place will be tumbleweed.

      And who is going to buy it? I think something like 20 of the top 50 richest countries in the world are E.U. Nations. What are you going to export to China? What are you going to export to the Gulf States? Canada has an E.U. Trade Deal. Norway is in EFTA.

      There’s Australia and NZ, 24 million and 5 million respectively, a large number of whom will recall how the U.K. dumped them to join the common market, and every item for export needing sent half way around the world while somehow remaining cheaper more competitive than the same product manufactured in China, Taiwan, Korea…

      There are the vast populations of India and China, but imperial, colonial, and political sensibilities set aside, the vast vast majority of the people are poor. Precisely what UK export is going to appeal to them?

      The UK’s Trade Deals post Brexit are going to consist of weapons to despots, “Scotland’s” oil, food and drink, and whatever remains of London’s Financial Sector which hasn’t up sticks and moved to Europe. Cars? Well, maybe from the factories which haven’t moved to Europe. Aircraft? What, the wings of the new Eurofigh…. oh.

      It’s gonna take a few container loads of weapons to feed a population of 53million people, and sell the wrong thing to the wrong person, and you’ll get yourself embargoed into the bargain. And once your economy is running on empty a few years, how are you going to fund the research and development to keep you ahead of the Chinese and Indians?

      What was the great plan again? Tea and Biscuits to Japan? Jam to China? What a joke.

      Brexiteers would have you believe Britain England 2030 will be like Singapore, but it’s much more likely to be like a shady bizarre for hooky gear and knock-off imitations, and dodgy characters in big Mercedes flashing gold bracelets. The “real” Financial movers and shakers are hardly going to trust a Genius UK economy which is massively, massively in debt and stuck two fingers up to the biggest Trading block on the planet. The UK Financial Sector will be a bigger international laughing stock than the UK’s MI5 after Burgess, MacLean and Philby, and it will take decade upon decade for potential investors to stop laughing,

      The UK risks becoming a corpse where only maggots and parasites can thrive. Give it few years and Britain will resemble every other factory that has been shut down, asset stripped and boarded up, and the BBC will still be sedating you with soap operas, ridiculing the French, and remembering how England beat the Germans and won two world wars and one World Cup, and is still rich enough to buy Queen Idontcare a new Barbour jacket and wellies for Ascot every year when she goes to see her dogs running.

      If Scotland is Brexited, I’m going to throw open my door and take in Brexiteer lodger. It’s not for the rent money which I’ll probably need to buy potatoes, but the chance to accidentally kick him in the shins or spill my cup of ersatz coffee over the clot whenever Jackie Burd on the BBC viewscreen mentions EUROanything or reminds us it’s £10 a pint in Norway because those lucky bastards got good oil.

      Burgers that shrink your balls and make you grow breasts , and Chlorine Fried Chicken? … Yum, yum. We’ll be fighting over them.

    443. Terence callachan says:

      To yesindyref2..

      It was Lord Reed that decided that the Sewell convention was not Law
      It was he that decided that it was a recommendation that Westminster would ” NORMALLY” consult
      the Scottish parliament before making laws for Scotland and it was he that said Westminster could go ahead and make laws for Scotland bypassing Scots law and the Scottish court and the Scottish parliament.
      Be careful where you put your trust.
      If it’s a British court it will decide in favour of Westminster as it always has
      British laws are written with a plan of action in mind and not the reverse

    444. Ottomanboi says:

      This below is what you get when you play by their rules.
      We come way behind Gibraltar and NI.
      Anger is good.Nicola.

      This is outrageous. My office got a call around 6pm last night to offer a meeting this morning – purpose not clear. I wasn’t prepared to cancel my constituency commitments at such short notice for @scotgov to yet again have to hear empty platitudes rather than be listened to.
      Connor Gillies
      Theresa May’s deputy David Lidington claims @NicolaSturgeon’s Scottish Government rejected talks on the #BrexitDeal today.

      11:58 AM – Nov 16, 2018

    445. manandboy says:

      With Independence, I will take deep satisfaction from the abolition and prohibition sine die of the Unionist Parties.
      End of.

      Hail Caesar!

    446. Collie says:

      Breeks 5.18pm

      Excellent detailed post regarding England’s trading problems AFTER Brexit.

      Once the reality sinks in of what Brexit actually means, it will be too late.

      Hell mend the bastards.

    447. Legerwood says:

      Nana says:
      16 November, 2018 at 4:34 pm
      Steve Barclay is the new brexit sec.

      Who he??””

      Does it matter? Doubt he will be in post long enough for us to find out who he Is!

    448. One_Scot says:

      Is it just me or are there BritNat trolls on here pretending to be Independence supporters?

    449. Petra says:

      What happens in relation to the Scots if the ECJ rules that the Article 50 notification can be reversed and a People’s Vote is held? A vote that covers No Deal, Deal (whatever that will be) and Remain in the EU. If the Scots vote to Remain in the EU again with the English voting for the Deal or No Deal will that then trigger a constitutional crisis? I know that this supposedly relates to the Member State but wouldn’t such an outcome give Nicola Sturgeon either cause to demand Indyref2 or seek support from the EU / UN based on breach of the Treaty of the Union?


      Alan Reid of Sheffield Hallam University has also outlined a most damning indictment of the UK Government as follows:

      …”Regardless of the relative merits or demerits of such an approach by the UK Government, these legal actions evidence a worryingly poor grasp of EU law principles. It is a well-established doctrine of EU law that the Article 267 TFEU Preliminary Ruling Procedure is not an appeal mechanism and as such national courts are free to submit requests to the Luxembourg court, free of any interference from higher national courts (See for example Cases 36 and 71/80 Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association v Ireland ECLI:EU:C:1981:62 and Case 338/85 Fratelli Pardini SpA v Ministero del Commercio con l’Estero ECLI:EU:C:1988:194).

      Superior courts of the Member States are of course free to issue guidelines to the lower courts on when references should be sent to the CJEU (See for example the dicta of Sir Thomas Bingham MR in R. v International Stock Exchange of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland Ltd Ex p. Else (1982) Ltd [1993] QB 534 and the case of Emerald Supplies Limited & Others v British Airways Plc [2017] EWHC 2420 (Ch)), and the CJEU itself issues guidelines on how to refer EU law questions to it, however, these guidelines cannot fetter the wide discretion afforded to national courts to make their own decision on the appropriateness of an Article 267 TFEU reference.

      The lack of knowledge of basic underpinnings of EU law at the heart of the UK Government is either negligence writ large or an unashamed attempt to circumvent well established judicial lines of communication between national courts and the CJEU. Either way, it diminishes the reputation of UK Plc. and conversely enhances the standing and reputation of the Scottish courts and politicians.

      Nevertheless, inexorably the Brexit clock lurches forward and it remains to be seen whether Scotland can Scotch Brexit for the evident utility of the entire United Kingdom.”

    450. cearc says:


      Like Singapore,eh? That’ll be the same Singapore that after 7 ot 8 years negotiating has just reached agreement on a FTA with the EU.

      They’ll be lucky to have their WTO schedules and tariffs sorted by 2030. It’s not only Aus, NZ and S. Korea who object to a quick carve up off tariffs. Rather more stubbornly there is Moldova and for them it is very personal. Their WTO rep is one of the people from their trade delegation that wanted to meet to discuss post-Brexit trade and the FO refused them visas.

    451. yesindyref2 says:

      @Terence callachan
      I’d be interested to see where exactly in the Judgement given by the UKSC:

      Lord Neuberger, President
      Lady Hale, Deputy President
      Lord Mance
      Lord Kerr
      Lord Clarke
      Lord Wilson
      Lord Sumption
      Lord Reed
      Lord Carnwath
      Lord Hughes
      Lord Hodge

      Lord Reed says what you said he said:

    452. HYUFD says:

      Breeks The largest single national destination for UK exports is the USA, though the EU as a whole is first it is under 50% of UK exports. Given all the polls show a majority of English and UK voters oppose No Deal if Brexit is to take

    453. HYUFD says:

      place it will likely be Norway style single market Brexit, Turkey style customs union Brexit or May’s Deal Brexit which is a combination of Turkey Customs Union, Canada Plus and Swiss agreements

    454. Capella says:

      David Lidington is livid that Nicola won’t do what she’s told.
      “Get behind the Prime Minister, serf”

      He also dismissed claims that the Scottish government’s concerns had been ignored, adding: “British ministers from the prime minister down have listened to the first minister and her team. I saw the first minister myself just a week ago.

      “The prime minister phoned Nicola Sturgeon after the cabinet meeting concluded on Wednesday night and I offered a further meeting today which they turned down -they didn’t want that – and I’ve offered a meeting in London on Monday.”

      Sturgeon urged to back ‘good’ Brexit deal

      Nicola will be glad she didn’t rush off to meet him if this is the tone he is taking.

    455. Petra says:

      Well worth listening to what Stewart Hosie has to say (9:36am) to Liam Fox on future trade deals if we leave the EU under T May’s current EU/UK Brexit deal.

    456. yesindyref2 says:

      Jeez, what a twisted way of putting things. Here you go, this is from an official source:

      “That being said, as a union of 27 other countries, the EU still had a much greater share of UK exports than the US in 2016 (43% compared with 18%). A report in the FT showed how for almost every category of goods exported, the EU was by far a bigger market than the US.”

      EU – 43%
      US – 18%

    457. yesindyref2 says:

      it will likely be Norway style single market Brexit, Turkey style customs union Brexit or May’s Deal Brexit which is a combination of Turkey Customs Union, Canada Plus and Swiss agreements

      Shoerepairers. Absolute bollocks.

    458. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 So as I said the USA is the largest single national destination for UK exports but the EU as a whole is bigger but stil most UK exports now go outside the EU

    459. Stravaiger says:


      I wouldn’t normally reply to you but you do make me laugh. You seem to think there will be some sort of deal. Haven’t you figured out what’s going on yet? Enough of the regulars here have figured it out and have spelled it out for you if you’d been paying attention. I’d almost feel sorry for you but you’ve only yourself to blame.

      Anyway, we’re making our own plans. See ya!

    460. Legerwood says:

      Terence callachan @ 5.31.

      I suggest you read the judgement of the UK Supreme Court in the Gina Millar case re Article 50.

      The Sewel Convention is dealt with in detail in paras 136-152
      Pages 44-49. This section sets out why it is a political issue and not a legal one.

      The most interesting para is this one:
      “149. In the Scotland Act 2016, the recognition of the Sewel Convention occurs alongside the provi sion in section 1 of that Act. That section, by inserting section 63A into the Scotland Act 1998, makes the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, signifies the commitment of the UK Parliament and government to those devolved institutions, and declares that those institutions are not to be abolished except on the basis o f a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum. This context supports our view that the purpose of the legislative recognition of the convention was to entrench it as a convention.” 48 Page

    461. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola should tell Lidington that there is now only one thing left for discussion – provision of a Section 30 so Scotland can pass judgement on WM’s performance and Brexit.

      What else is there to say? What else to discuss? There is nothing else the Tories can offer. The Tories aren’t going to take on board anything Nicola says. They haven’t so far and won’t now.

    462. Rock says:

      Nana says:
      16 November, 2018 at 12:15 pm

      “Nicola says

      This is outrageous. My office got a call around 6pm last night to offer a meeting this morning – purpose not clear. I wasn’t prepared to cancel my constituency commitments at such short notice for @scotgov to yet again have to hear empty platitudes rather than be listened to.

      Nicola and the SNP have achieved ZERO for Scotland regarding Brexit.

      Nobody at Westminster gives a damn about what Nicola and the SNP think.

      Whatever the Brexit outcome, Nicola and the SNP will have had ZERO effect on it.

      Will Nicola then call an independence referendum?

      I can say with 100% confidence that she will not dare defy Westminster and hold a referendum without a Section 30 order.

      She is keeping the powder dry – for Scotland to become independent in 2640 AD.

      Be a bit more patient folks.

    463. yesindyref2 says:

      Reported correctly on BBC Scotland ny whatisname, that the request was made last minute and Sturgeon wasn’t prepared to cancel everything to listen to empty platitudes.

      Lidington is a liar “being economical with the truth”, basically. Who’d have think it?

    464. Rock says:

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

    465. HYUFD says:

      Stravaiger There already has been a Deal agreed by the PM and EU this week unless you have bern asleep. All the polling shows Remain preferred to No Deal and a majority of MPs prefer Remain to No Deal and even May said No Brexit could result if her Deal was rejected. Even if Corbyn becomes PM he backs a permanent Customs Union membership

    466. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings, it’s a FUDder and child reunion, and the motion is coming our way.

      We’re going to need more wipes.

    467. Rock says:

      Time for some light entertainment:

      / 22:45 2018-11-15

      Cubby says:
      15 November, 2018 at 11:18 am (“Theresa May’s Crack Team”)

      “The Maybot says in response to Blackford Scotland is a PART of the UK. This woman lies every time she opens her mouth. Scotland is a PARTNER in the U.K.”

      Is Scotland a part of the UK? Yes

      Is Scotland partner in the UK? Partner of whom? Partner of ENGLAND.

      Even Saint Theresa knows a bit more of the facts than our own Cubby.

    468. Capella says:

      @ galamennalath @ yesindyref2 – Lidington looks positively demented in that BBC photo.
      The rivets are pinging out as the glacier slides under the hull of the Britannia. He heard a horrible grinding noise and realised that there are only two lifeboats, the Bad Deal and the Chequers Deal ….
      …to be continued.

    469. Dr Jim says:

      When it all goes wrong it’ll be Nicola Sturgeon’s fault says David Lidington ….using the BBC as his mouthpiece to repeat it for him

      Coz the Tories did nuthin eh!

    470. Rabbie says:

      God save the queen

    471. jfngw says:

      These Scottish unionist, you have to laugh as they back the UK leaving its largest market, saying that Scotland would be mad to leave its largest market. And they say this apparently without any hint of self awareness of their own irony.

      But at least we now know they would accept Scotland being a wasteland as long as it remained in the union. How much do you need to hate your own country and its inhabitants to hold such a view. How low they are willing to grovel for the approval of their masters.

    472. galamcennalath says:

      Alyn Smith’s weekly newsletter …

      ” After all this we are being told nothing about the UK’s plans for our future…….. Remember, this “deal” is only the exit, if it happens. This was supposed to be the easy bit. Whatever happens in the coming months, unless we vote down Mrs May’s lamentable fudge now, we’ll all be doing Brexit for years to come.”

      A totally Blind Brexit. Opaque glasses, white stick, and nae guide dug.

    473. ronnie anderson says:

      David Lidington ( depity of something or other ) Ms Sturgeon wont be meeting with you in london on monday as she’s plucking her eyebrows ( its ah wummin thing pain fur gain ) instead of pain fur nae gain . Noo F OFF.

    474. Petra says:

      An astrological perspective.

      ‘Brexiteer England – still stuck in 1940.’

      …”At the moment tr Pluto is opposing the 10th house UK Moon, tr Saturn is aiming to conjunct the Sun this December; the Solar Arc Moon will oppose the UK Saturn soon and tr Uranus is heading for the UK 8th house. Not that I’m suggesting a war will ensue this time round but it’s perhaps not surprising that similar feelings erupted especially amongst the older generation.”..

    475. Hackalumpoff says:

      @Daisy Walker 2:27 pm

      “If the UK ‘supreme’ court is agreeing to review this appeal – in contravention of the Treaty of Union terms – then it is Huge, it also means that probably the most effective (and democratic – in a Westminster kind of way ) means of cancelling Brexit is now seriously in line for being rigged”

      IMO UKGOV has applied for permission to appeal NOT to Appeal the CS Judgement.

      So, if the SC gives them permission to appeal, then what you say is true, if not then UKGOV and the case continues to CJEU on the 27th.

      Either way the fan is rotating and the brown stuff is piling up.

    476. galamcennalath says:

      Another review of ‘what next’. At least this one includes …

      ” Judges at the European Union’s highest court will hear a case on the Brexit process on Nov. 27, reviewing whether Britain could unilaterally withdraw its decision to leave the EU. “

      … however it goes into no more detail than that.

    477. Ottomanboi says:

      I find your average Brit commenter on Scotland assumes that the UK less Scotland would remain the UK. That treaty of Union thingy represents nothing more than annexation, by England. Makes sense, there will always be an England even if officially styled UK.
      The way the FM has been treated over the Brexit negotiations is more than suggestive of the hubris and jaw dropping smugness of the English ruling class.
      We’re just a colonial possession. The SNP needs to dish the full dirt to our citizens on the sordid, demeaning nature of Anglo-Scottish relations. If the last 300 years isn’t enough we have the contemporary exemplars to display. Heel Scottie, heel! Grrrrrr!

    478. Dan Huil says:

      The FM is right to tell this latest arrogant and ignorant britnat, Lidlthingy, to get lost.

    479. Breeks says:

      It’s quite funny how the feckless politicians who have brought the UK to the brink of economic catastrophe don’t want to touch a second referendum because it will diminish their democracy.

      If ever there was a democracy that needed taken apart and dipped in Dettol…

    480. susan says:

      I’ll be honest, I want Scottish Independence, a hard border with England and N. Ireland. I’m sick and tired of kowtowing to the UK.

    481. Capella says:

      ronnie (diplomacy) anderson for Ambassador to the Court of St James’s.

    482. Tinto Chiel says:

      At a public meeting in June on Brexit, Michael Russell observed of Mr Lidington that he simply had no grasp of the functions and legal frameworks of the devolved parliament/assemblies and often had to be told of the error of his ways (sometimes by his own civil servants, sometimes by MR).

      I believe he has but rarely ventured north of the border on Brexit business (once?) and exudes contempt for Scotland and its government in his dealings with our own Brexit minister.

      The FM was contacted at extremely short notice (no respect again) about 6 p.m. regarding a meeting the next day but the exact nature of it was not specified.

      Given his track record of typical WM arrogance and ignorance, the FM did exactly the right thing.

      Up with this kind of thing, Nicola.

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top