Impact assessment
Posted on
February 10, 2018 by
Chris Cairns
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Hahaha, brilliant as always Chris. 100mph into a brick wall with no airbags. Jump now Hamish.
Aye that’s about the size of it. I hope Hamish bales out quick before the massive car crash.
Well done Chris.
No seat belt on either. This isn’t going to end well.
Very skillful cartoon Chris.
Superb, superb, superb. Time for hamish to jump out, and make his way to safety.
Why, in a so-called democracy, is the UK Government operating and making policy in secret? Almost every thing now, we are told, is secret, or as in the case of the brexit impact assessment, redacted.
Is a covert, secretive, UK Government really what brexit means??
[…] Wings Over Scotland Impact assessment Read the full article:: Wings Over Scotland […]
O/T
At last we are getting signs that our wonderful media are coming to their senses and admitting that the apparent signs of detente between N & S Korea is a reaction to Trump’s megaphone warmongering.
To me it is obvious and has been for some time that S.Korea is telling Trump to lay off and stop interfering in something that is none of his business.
Excellent!
Is the rumour true that iEngland plans to relaunch an updated Morris 1000 with plastic body and 600cc two stroke two cylinder engine after Brexit?
LOL – Every action has an equal and opposite redaction!
‘Mon Hamish, time to go.
Nice touch there, Chris. Everything John Bull says to Hamish now is redacted!
Jump! Scotland.
It’s not a leap of faith that is required, it’s common sense. Return our Nation to its natural state of independence.
What’s normal for every other nation has been disproportionately demonised by a small cabal of power-seeking aristocrats, politicians, media owners and paranoid middle-class hangers-on.
And you can bet your house on the redacted word being “not”…
(…in fact, come to think of it, that’s exactly what we’re doing. Betting the house…)
It’s only a Minor detail. The good ship UK is rudderless,leaderless, and worst of all clueless.
How on earth can people entrust their and their children’s future to such a collection of imbeciles. It’s true what they say about people being easily led to disaster, spurred on by the application of bigotry,racism and xenophobia liberally applied by politicians and media.
I am actually coming to the incredible conclusion that the SNP he to get hold of the whole of the UK and shake it back to its senses. I know that would never happen, but there is something very disconcerting about watching Engerrlund destroy itself through hatred of others, laced with arrogance and superiority, albeit with no ability at all.
We need to gain control of the asylum before the lunatics.
Chris
Is the wall the one that the mundell is negotiating with trump’s mega company. The rumour is that an Italian Legion is going to rebuild the one at Carlisle, it will have customs booths, pill boxes, trrop accomodation and tank traps, just to keep out the Pictish Scots.
An Irish one is also on the cards, but top secret, maybe I’ll get a visit for the disclosure. I visited the downstairs vault guarded by a tory lizard and sneaked a look at the building warrent, it’s on velum of course.
Let’s run our small country based on;-
Our sense of right-and,wrong.
Our sense of economic-risk.
Our own natural resources.
Our respected academic community.
Our international relationships.
Our productivity.
OUR FUTURE.
I suggest, post independence- rewrite all PFI contracts, divert the payments. Spread mayhem throughout financial & legal systems, cause a FTSE/Pound crash!
That’s the effect, caused by EXPLOITATION of PUBLIC FUNDS by Westmimster and their greedy chums. Let’s start risking THEIR livelihoods. Stop fucking with the poor people.
@Morgatron says: 10 February, 2018 at 7:33 am:
“Hahaha, brilliant as always Chris. 100mph into a brick wall with no airbags. Jump now Hamish.”
That vehicle looks very like a Morris Minor convertible, Morgatron, thus Chris made certain there were no air bags fitted in such an old car.
Chris never misses a trick and the small detail is always just spot on as he hammers nails on the head.
Ae fond kiss,goodbye old England.
Brilliant as ever!!
This seems wholly appropriate ..
EU negotiator Michel Barnier warns Brexit transition period ‘not a given’
link to archive.is
I was talking to some Irish folk last week and their summation of Westminster in two words, ‘Feckin Eejits’. They’re also desperate to see how the DUP and their Westminster Lap-dogs resolve the unsolvable, how to create a ‘friction less Border a fact restated by Barnier only yesterday. They also pointed out that the four ‘Border Counties'(Bandit Country) voted to ‘Remain’ with only the old heartlands of the DUP voting leave, a point Mrs May would do well to take note of.
Unless it’s a PFI wall and will crumble on impact, England’s fecked.
Ace, as per, Cairns.
I’ve just listened to Davidson on the Radio Forth Phone In. She really is an empty headed little self promoter, isn’t she? She was in good company. I take it that this is standard fare for ‘Scoddish’ steam radio these days?
‘When they phoned me up, and asked me tooo dooo this’. Aye, right.
The sooner she fuck’s off to the Motherland, the better.
The sooner we hold Indyref 2, the sooner we get rid of this evil little bunch of chancers.
Fabulous. What’s the blacked out word, must be a secret.
I have heard a few people say ‘Brexit’s not gonna happen’ and ‘there will be another referendum’. Oh dear which planet?
No words really as to the shambles of the past week. North Korea might be an attractive place once the UK Torygov, on full turbo power remove pretty much every human right and freedom from the lowly ordinary folk of their rancid UK.
Scotland get your socks on, time is running out to escape. :-{
I wondered whether instead of calling her Colonel Davidson we start a theme of ‘Begging Bowl Betty’ instead. Because one of the major differences between those of us on the YES side and the Unionists is that we are clear that we want to stand on our own two feet economically whereas Unionists are willing, in effect, to sponge off English taxpayers (saying eg Scotland is an economic basketcase ). This theme might also go down well amongst those older voters who generally don’t want to feel they are subsidised.
There are only TWO scenarios left for Brexit.
1. A humiliating climbdown for the UK and Theresa, giving in to EU demands. We know Theresa will not back down in order to save face and protect her ego and vote Base.
2. Hard Brexit. Exit Europe with nothing but your pride. The current lack of Statesmanship means this is the more likely outcome. The population will be encouraged to show them they were wrong.
It is heading for the wall. No doubt about it. We must be ready to use that fact.
Please, Nobody tell me now the SNP are not playing this to perfection. Never interrupt your enemy while they make mistakes.
Aye Tereza’s Brexitears thought it would be ah Breeze to leave the EU & the world’s largest trading Block with no penalties .
Great toon Chris U could draw a wall fur Trump he’s having some difficulties building his .
Haha, brilliant. Run, Hamish!!!
Wonder if the Mars bar blacked out word refers to the secret papers? Reading that secret squirrel tosh was like reading some kind of Forsyth spy plot.
Ludicrous.
The acting Chief Constable of Polis Scotland has just issued an apology to the MacLeod family in Wick who maintain that their son was murdered there over 20 years ago & have had no justice whatsoever from the Northern Constabulary. An enquiry is promised & as there are other murder cases in the Northern Constabulary’s patch with unsatisfactory outcomes, Iain Livingstone might be a busy man!
This is the kind of parochial policing that Leslie Riddoch & Willie Rennie, through rose-tinted glasses, think is appropriate for Scotland in the 21st century!
Well done Chris, says it all, really! You are so clever with all the wee nuances.
@gus1940
I agree about N and S Korea. I wish the “whole” world would tell the USA and all her “best buddies”, to stop interfering in the affairs of other countries. Of course the USA don’t want peace in Korea. Peace would mean that they can’t be there and they want to keep threatening N Korea and China.
Bob Mack at 9.47
Exactly
“We’re at a whole new level of Brexit chaos and uncertainty ”
Kirsty Hughes
link to thenational.scot
Robert Louis @7.55am. “Why is the UK government operating and making policy in secret”
Their actions and policies are not going to be in the interests of the population
For the Tories “Taking back Control” is all about the Tories regaining control of their serfs.
We’re heading back to Rip off Britain of the 1970’s and beyond.
And they will do anything to make sure they are in control of the process.
Chris and Greg Moodie are doing a talk/show at The Summerhall`s Edinburgh (Meadows area)at 3 this afternoon,tickets are free and there was a rumour Greg was buying the drink (or a drink),
link to tinyurl.com
Those of us lucky enough to have our own cuddly Hamish will be giving him a cuddle, to protect him from that crazy John Bull 🙂
artyhetty @ 09:34,
It’s “not”. As in “It will NOT be fine”.
But you and I mustn’t know that. We only pay these wasters their undeserved wages, so we don’t matter.
So just go back to eating your cereal and let them get on with the driving…
Jump Hamish, the old Moggie took about 30 seconds to get to 60 and it was a push to go much faster than that.
An appropriate choice of vehicle to depict the UK negotiating team come to think of it.
He is driving towards hadrians wall from the scottish side, i do hope he notices that hadrian did not build walls with tunnels.
He is a bit of a doughnut so we better wait and see if he notices and puts the brakes on, but knowing him, he probably thinks he’s ok with a parachute in the boot lol
That’ll leave a mark. 🙂
o/t
Two government flunkies delivered a letter and it cost us a mere £1000.
link to independent.co.uk
Cracker Chris.. the question is who benefits from this, who is waiting on the other side of the wall to pick up the salvageable bits and leave all the shit for us mere mortals. Health care companys from Merica will be waiting with contracts prepared!!
A taste of things to come.
link to independent.co.uk
The only thing keeping the economy of the UK from collapsing into a hole is the fact that it is still currently an EU member. It still has access to the CU and single market. The final shape of the UK’s relationship with and access to the EU is as yet unknown. The link above was a hiccup caused by the very thought that the UK would crash out of the EU without any access.
Imagine if you will, the carnage that will ensue if a hard brexit becomes the reality. None of the three options currently available will leave the UK better off. NONE.
Only one other option not on that super secret document will see Scotland’s population avoid this criminal act of greed driven ideological self harm.
Probably also worth mentioning one other thing in relation to their secret squirrel approach to the Brexit settlement and their sudden public shyness.
The utter hypocrisy of it all.
After indyref 2014, Scotland’s population were bombarded with state backed media releases on every Scotland bill vote. The Smith commission talks were the daily fair of the media. Talk of and action on, EVEL by Cameron was seen as fully in the public interest. The humiliation (see under punishment) of Scotland’s SNP Westminster representation, the SNP administration and the indy voting public, required fucking reading for all of the past three and a quarter years.
Seems though, that when the boot is on the other foot… it’s one rule for some and quite another for HMG. The public interest…
It was in the public’s interest to be fully informed BEFORE any EU ref was ever put before them. It was in the public interest to have access to ALL the facts pro and contra EU membership. It was in the public interest to be made FULLY aware of the consequences of any given scenario of leaving the EU regarding the economy, Northern Ireland agreements, the standing UK devolution settlements and the pledges made to Scotland’s electorate on the 2014 indyref. It was in the public’s interest that they went into any EU ref with the full agreement of the devolved parliaments (they do constitute nation partners, right?) and that contingencies for both votes were in place.
Those were in the public’s interest.
Given the utter and complete lack of ALL of the above. It would appear to me however, that the public’s interests were never really considered at all.
Another superb cartoon, Chris, crafted as usual with the aid of a scalpel.
Perfect symbolism for The British Empire heading for a very hard Brexit.
The UK will be a write off.
That’s why Hamish is saving Scotland.
Notice how JB is driving in a sleepy hypnotic trance.
And they all lived happily ever after.
The End.
Fin.
O/T
I saw Andrew Neil getting very excited when someone from right wing think tank (I don’t think this was actually mentioned just IEA so if you didn’t know what it was you were in the dark) telling us the NHS needs more privatisation and she had the numbers to prove it she claimed.
More money would not make it any better, it is the fact that is not private/insurance based that is the problem apparently. If only she could point to a public service that improved after privatisation that didn’t involve massive increases in cost I may have taken her more seriously.
Maybe the BBC’s next task will be to soften up the public for the next big privatisation.
no crumple zone in a moggie & no transition period in brexit, its a car crash right enough, great toon chris
@Macart
Much true in what you are saying there.
Great cartoon again.
My Hamish, tucked into the RH corner of my windscreen, never flinches on our travels…had a few folk notice him too!
I remember well,when younger, adding those little dalek indicator bulb things to a Morris 1000 to replace the defunk old flip up indicators for my father-law who owned such a beastie while I was in a sporty triumph 2000 🙂
Nice one Chris.
Though I still think JB will crap his Union Jack Y fronts and veer away at the last second.
The brinkmanship used by the arrogant entitled British is probably just a charade to appease the hard brexiteers.
Soft Brexit dressed as hard,is their game IMO.
I had this vision while listening to Gary Robertson’s interview with Stephen Kerr, of the penny slowly dropping across Scotland as No Voters realise that all the warnings given out by the SNP were not just doom and gloom, but that the SNP has actually been right all along. And that those former No Voters will say to the Tories, “Ah, you know what? Just do what you want, but we’re off”.
In the interview yesterday, Kerr admitted that he hadn’t even read the impact assessments yet, but had “every confidence” that Theresa May would “get the best deal for Britain”.
That mantra sticks in my craw, even worse than the “strong and stable”. But I hope they keep on using it, it has a drip-drip effect.
Brexiteers would love to go back to the great days of Brutish motoring,
blue passports and Brutish Leyland cars,Hillman Imps and MG Rover sun always shining knotted handkerchief and lamb chops for tea,
nostalgic pish.
@gerry parker says: 10 February, 2018 at 7:55 am:
No seat belt on either. This isn’t going to end well.
“Very skillful cartoon Chris.”
Nae fitted seat belts in auld Morris Minor Convertables, Gerry.
Unless thir retro-fitted. We aa ken yon John Bull gadgie is ower mean an auld farren tae retro-fit onythin.
He is, effter aa, a conservative an conservatives ir again ony kin o chinge, an whit like.
Ah see the Chris Cairns/Greg moodie talk in Edinburgh today is full (sold out) (the tickets are actually free).
link to eventbrite.co.uk
I’ve noticed lately that brexiteers on radio and press reviews are now claiming that the financial consequences don’t matter..
It’s all about sovereignty and getting back independence.. Financial forecasts are unreliable as know one knows the future also..
We don’t even need to make a case for Indy ref 2…
Oh silly me, different rules for British nationalists and us peasants..
Regarding the cartoon,
Driving into a brick wall, just sounds so very, very ‘british’. Yet another blunder under the banner of rule britannia stupidity. Brexit means brexit, we’re doing it no matter what, who cares if we trash the country and Scotland too, who cares if we end up with no fresh fruit and veg on the shelves, who cares if thousands lose their jobs and their homes. Time to do or die.
Just like Balaclava, eh brexiteers. It is not for us to question why.
“..Was there a man dismay’d?
Not tho’ the soldier knew
Some one had blunder’d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred…”
From ‘The charge of the light brigade’
Alfred Lord Tennyson.
Auld Rock. Heh, maybe that’s the solution to EU/ UK/ NI. To redraw the border to the DUP heartlands that voted Leave and for the four border counties that voted Remain to rejoin the Republic?
@Robert Louis says: 10 February, 2018 at 7:55 am:
“Is a covert, secretive, UK Government really what brexit means??”
Don’t know about that, Robert Louis but I had Radio Jockland on as background noise this A.M.and heard some officious sounding English female stridently bemoaning the facts about Barnier and the European Union officials stance in relation to the United Kingdom Government, (a.k.a. the de facto Parliament of the Kingdom of England).
I wasn’t really listening until I became aware of what the female was moaning about, so I have no idea who, or what capacity she represented for the United Kingdom.
I found it very telling that every point she bemoaned, (i.e. the claimed lack of consultation with the Tory United Kingdom Government; the claimed European Union’s dictatorial attitude towards the United Kingdom/English parliament and so on), exactly mirrored how the Westminster Establishment has treated the Kingdom of Scotland since 1706/7.
The difference being that the United Kingdom is one of 28 equally sovereign member states of the European Union while the, so called, United Kingdom is legally supposed to be a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms but Westminster has never treated the union as such.
The brainless English female obviously couldn’t perceive the irony of her idiotic bleating and obviously wouldn’t appreciate that the European Union Officials, on the United Kingdom announcing
BRUKEXIT, had immediately adopted the line, (and rightly so), that the negotiated and agreed Freedoms of the European Union could not be cherry picked by Westminster and that there would be no special deal for Westminster. They have not changed that stance one jot since.It was always the case that the freedoms were sacrosanct and would not be changed to suit Westminster. It was always the case that Westminster must either accepted all freedoms together or they got none of them.
It certainly seems now that they will indeed get none of them.
Eton wall game? Or just an Eton mess.
galamcennalath says:
10 February, 2018 at 8:15 am
Excellent!
Is the rumour true that iEngland plans to relaunch an updated Morris 1000 with plastic body and 600cc two stroke two cylinder engine after Brexit?
Yes, it will be the only vehicle built in the UK and the only one available to buy. There will also be a 2 year waiting list to get one, and when your happy day arrives it will almost certainly break down on the way from the factory! East Germany used to have such an icon of automotive engineering, it was called a Trabant!
Naw, that’s wrong! : )
It’s more like a bunch of monkeys in the back seats fighting over who gets to wave the steering wheel around.
None of them are conscious that they’ve pulled the steering wheel off of its stalk a while back, and no one is actually steering anything.
The rest of us are watching it in ultra slow motion.
We know exactly what’s going to happen, the wall or cliff edge is inching closer, but there’s just no telling they daft monkeys. All they’re interested in is their own stupid squabbling …
M.
Just like that eh! Just saw this posted on WOS twitter.
link to gov.uk
Am sprucing myself up to attend your Summerhall do, Chris. For once I’m in the right city on the right day, at the right time. Better be worth the rip-off parking fees!
Your essential weekend reading:
Another funny film from Aardman: link to wp.me
How to look after your car: link to wp.me
@Bob Millar says: 10 February, 2018 at 9:39 am:
“This theme might also go down well amongst those older voters who generally don’t want to feel they are subsidised.”
Aye! Bob, but some of we older people knew full well that Westminster was ripping Scotland off ever since 1st May 1707 and have spent our entire life telly you and the other people of Scotland the facts – thing is you and those other younger people of Scotland were not listening and many of you who are now telling the tale told us we were, “The lunatic fringe”, and militant terrorists.
For Example we knew about the MacCrone Report but no one listened to us then. Yet now it seems it’s all the fault of the older generation, according to the now converted to the truth.
There’s stupid and there’s this
Did you know that it’s Scotlands xenophobic racist attitude towards England and the SNPs hatred of the English that’s making *Englands* Brexit more difficult and expensive because of Sturgeons incessant interferences, and she should be co-operating with the government or stay out of it
I read that this morning, on how many convoluted levels of stupid can you be to think even remotely like this
@Bill not Ben says: 10 February, 2018 at 11:19 am:
“He is driving towards hadrians wall from the scottish side …
There isn’t a, “Scottish Side to Hadrian’s wall, Bill not Ben.
Not only was it was built long before there was an England and Scotland but it is 100% well within what is The Kingdom of England and thus both sides are in England. But don’t tell the English that as they seem so certain that the wall was specifically built to keep the Scots out of England.
If we don’t tell them the real truth we will get a chunk of England when we take back our independence.
Alastair says:
I know. That’s what I was hinting at. But maybe I’m too much of a car geek 🙂
The Trabant’s body wasn’t just plastic, it was plastic made from the waste products of other industries!
I have noticed a few automotive vibes. At one point BMW were suggesting moving the Mini out of the UK if there were tariffs. Also, in the last few days Japanese companies have been giving similar warnings. Brexit could be the last straw for UK car production if it goes wrong.
It all goes beyond that. The reason why so many companies invested in the UK was because it gave a gateway to the rest of the EU. Any and all of that is at risk.
Odd world, though. I get the impression that the English regions most likely to be hurt most by Brexit are Leave strongholds. Remain areas will be hit least. I would be reticent to go as far as to say … justice. No ordinary folk win with Brexit, anywhere.
March 29th 2019 really could mean a sudden and sharp cliff edge brexit, with no transition deal.
This would be an utter catastrophy for uk business and industry.
On the other hand, it would be apparent a whole lot sooner, to everyone in Scotland (and ruk), that our economy would be decimated and Indy support would surely soar.
Make no mistake here, WM only wants a transition deal for one reason.
If there is a transition period, then the worse effects of brexit are hidden from Scots for another 2 years. (2021)
So, to hold an indyref in 2018 early 2019, as the deal goes to the EU for ratification/scrutiny, it (EU deal) can still be presented by WM as “not as bad as claimed”, which could help WM retain some No voters or waverers.
An absolute cliff edge brexit with no transition means the negative effects will be well under way before the No Deal/No Transition Deal is announced, will sharply focus Scots thinking between No to utterly disasterous brexit, or a Yes vote to independence, and getting our own deal to remain in the EU/Single Market/Customs Union.
I believe the latter scenario would result in a resounding Yes vote.
WM are desperate for No EU influence on our laws after march 29th 2019, but desperate to retain a transition arrangement, to facillitate a false sense of wellbeing, in the hope of fending off a Yes vote in late 2018/early 2019.
No transition deal is a disaster for WM in the battle to keep Scotland tied to the union.
Dr Jim says:
I had a conversation with an English acquaintance a few months back. She commented about Humza Yousaf not being Scottish so how could he be in the SNP?
I replied that he lives and works here and behaves like a Scot, so he must be one. Also, I said he was probably born here (which he was) but being born in Scotland isn’t a qualification for the SNP. We have lots of English members.
I went on to say I have never been to an SNP event without hearing some English accents. And, we have English born elected representatives.
Turned out to be quite a revelation because she had previously believed the whole ethnic Scots anti English thing. It seems many do. Sad, actually.
Aye, “It will all be fine” mumbles he.
John Bull has been told that all he has to do is hit the ‘Turbo Boost’ button to try and clear the wall (which they built all by themselves). Although little does he know, their cliff edge awaits immediately beyond their wall.
Knight Industries Two Thousand technologies.
Impact assessment not looking good.
Happy landings, not.
“Pity, such a pity” says David Bowie (fae Labyrinth)
“Ride on, see you, I could never go with you…” says Hamish.
geeo says:
Indeed. I have a very strong feeling too that this is central to their thinking. Make it through to Holyrood2021 in the hope of getting a BritNat majority, again.
However, there has been discussion on here about the Tories doing the exact opposite. If a hard Brexit looks inevitable, they would be best having IndyRef2 soon and using the threat of a hard border to keep the gullible and switherers voting NO.
We will know sooner than later what the probable style of Brexit will be. If it’s hard, there is no hiding the consequences.
Love it, Chris.
Get oot o’ that heap Hamish! It’s the look on JB’s face – eyes open but not seeing (or ignoring) what’s in front of him. Does he really expect it to just disappear?
A few months ago we managed to get a lovely newish car (thanks to my dear old mum, god bless) and I’ve been trying to persuade Mr R that we splash out on a private plate for it. Needless to say it’s going to be a bit obvious and he’s worried that ‘the yoons’ll get it, do in the windaes or the tyres’. What to do?
Interesting move by Westminster. Apparently they are going to allow ex pats to vote in British elections.
We all know what they are hoping to do here. Unionists absent from Scotland for decades will vote Unionist . Could damage the SNP.
Doug Daniel has it on twitter
@ Scott Finlayson 12.35pm
HEY YOU!!
The Hillman Imp was built in Linwood (no more) as well you know!
The one I had was the coopay model (true) and was a smashing wee motor.
Man the burds I pulled with that.
Aye happy daze, happy daze indeed. -:)
Now that’s an interesting little titbit posted by Call me Dave – why at this point in time and amid much confusion would the English government want to relax the rules on ex pat voting registration , This lot play the long game and despite what a lot of folk imagine they are not lazy or indeed stupid ,
This added to Fluffys little empire building of what appears to be a parallel government in waiting, presently being assembled in Edinburgh , the only reason would appear to be this is being set up to administer the repatriated powers from the EU ,
Fluffy is in the process of covering his arse regarding these powers, his comments regarding these powers being returned will prove correct because he never actually said that they would be returning to our parliament just retuning.
There is just now in the background a straight jacket being set in place in order to strangle the Scottish parliament by a whole series of unconnected moves that will totally nullify any and all power Holyrood presently have.
Indy ref 2 has started ,the Unionists are well up to speed and are beavering away out of sight , why has Fluffy and the rabid sidekick who appears weekly at FMQs been posted missing ? , they ain’t on bleeding holiday, I really hope Nicola and the SNP leadership are on this and have prepared to cut this lot off before they complete what they have started , this lot are playing for time , and as far as I can see are not being openly hindered in their work .
OT attitudes to women.
This utterly astonishing interview from 1970 has appeared in the last few days.
link to youtube.com
I have also read that Winnie Ewing had a tough time at WM, because she was female not because she was SNP.
I could say, “changed days”, but for some creepy men in WM, I’m not so sure it has gone away.
I find the suggestion to give ex pats the vote in UK elections absolutely outrageous. A requirement of the voting system should be that you actually live in the feckin country that your voting in.
I’m sorry, these folk chose to go and live somewhere else, so as far as I’m concerned they should have no say in what happens here. I agree with Bob Mack as to the reason why the want to do this, but naw. Jist naw.
Spittin feathers now. GRRRRRRRRRR.
What are they prepared to do:
Just hearing about the UK Guv set to extend voting rights to “expats”
So many folk who live work and pay tax here DON’T get to vote but folk abroad who neither work here, pay tax here or indeed contribute here in any meaningful way, can vote!
Somebody at Whitehall must have been tasked with the job of calculating the numbers on how many votes for or against the Tories there are in this
Or could it be there are more folk against Scottish Independence abroad than in Scotland, because the Tories are not doing this just to be nice to people
Or might it possibly maybe mibbees huv jist a wee bit tae dae wae postal votes being dead easy to fiddle especially overseas ones, the British Army Scottish Referendum ones comes tae mind a wee bitty
Let’s just see how many “British” forces are seconded to Scotland before the next Indyref
They stop our kids voting, they stop our immigrants voting
they might as well just put Scotland under martial law
Christ! I might’ve put that idea in their heids noo
If they go through with this subversion of the voting system which is bad enough as it is they’ll just encourage the other side of the Independence argument who’ll be far less pleasant than we are
Maybe that’s what they want though, Ireland all over again, except this is Scotland and there’s a hell of a lot more angry members of that team than Ireland ever had
” I_ w_l_ ‘blank’ b_ f_n_. ”
Even that is odd.
Next p_g_.
uno mas says:
It had a lot going for it. IMO a much better designed car than the Mini, despite all the hoo-ha and nostalgia surrounding the BMC offering. The Imp had an all aluminium engine block and sophisticated clutch gearbox system. And better use of space.
It was let down by poor manufacturing quality control. That must have been a Chrysler management issue. In general, though, UK cars were miles behind Japanese ones in terms of reliability. Nissans and Hondas from 1970 onwards came as a shock to UK manufacturers.
Regarding expats voting in GB elections.
I live and run a business in the expat community in Spain (have done so for 14 years) and I come across very few Scots.
I don´t reckon that more than 5% of the expat population is Scottish.
So I don´t think it would make much difference to the vote regarding Scotland.
Marie Clark says:
Quite so. By extension, they might want ethnic Scots living elsewhere in the UK to be able to vote in IndyRef2. That would be equally outrageous.
Democracy should always be about residency not ethnicity.
@Uno Mas,
120,000 in the EU alone. Many many more in Canada Australia.
Number could be quite large. No exact figure as Scotland is not recorded as a Nationally, but probably around 8- 10% of total expats worldwide. It will be significant.
The last figure I can find for to allow ex pats is 5.5 million of which approx 8%-10% will be Scots.
This was in stats life. Org. Sizeable if around 500,000 were from Scotland.
John Bull’s nose and cheeks are flushed. Looks like he’s had a few, eh?
Good one. Car maker’s also assessing how to get off.
link to swindonadvertiser.co.uk
Marie Clark @ 14:28,
galamcennalath @ 14:41,
The SG has now acquired some powers over the electoral system (not sure exactly what, tho), and consequently are running a consultation on electoral reform. Runs until 12.March. It can be found at:
link to consult.gov.scot
Seems to me anyway that residence is an essential qualification for the right to vote in any and all Scottish elections, but whatever, you can make your own views known where it might really do some good!
Lots of American and Canadian Scots who knows how they’d vote, OK not many in Spain or France, but that’s hardly the point which is, no taxation without representation and it surely must work the other way round, no representation without taxation unless the government in England proposes to tax “expats” (bloody hate that stupid word) and in that case do the “expats” want to be taxed for not living in a country and not contributing to it
I could see a court case
The new biog’ of John Maclean “The Red & the Green!” by Gerard Cairns is available at Calton Books at the Barras! Just bought a copy £7.
Hard to believe that those who emigrated away from the UK, ie immigrants to other lands, would have a vote in UK elections. Something sinister there, but what’s new.
This idea is for the rich and powerful, who will be leaving promptly when the s**t really hits the fan re their brexit. They will become ‘expats’ and still want a vote in UKOK elections. I don’t think so.
More hard to read wall crashing,
Out, Out, Out!
Brexiteers Are Driving Britain into a Wall
link to spiegel.de
I’m an “expat”. I and my husband pay tax and NI in the UK. Why should we not be allowed to vote? Just because we happen to work and live overseas?
I think you’ll find that many of the EU citizens working and living in the UK are still able to vote in their own countries too.
I’m Scottish and voted Remain. If I had been allowed to vote in Indy1, I’d have voted Yes.
No matter where in the world I have been, there are always plenty of Scots living and working there. Do you consider them no longer Scottish then?
“Spittin feathers now. GRRRRRRRR”
Ex-pats to regain vote, well that will see a large increase in postal votes for the Tories to ‘have access to’ prior to the polls closing. Nothing fishy there then! I wonder if there will be a large increase and high turnout of these voters.
Re car manufacturing in the UK and EU. Up to now the owners of the factories have held off on updating/changing the infrastructure in the UK factories for the change over to all electric cars.
At the same time many of their factories in the EU have been upgraded to produce either or in terms of oil burning or electric, with a view to going all electric soon.
If they have to up sticks from the UK, its not the end of the world for them.
Re expats getting the vote. Very alarming. How many of English origin, will game the system and claim Scotland as their area for voting. Rather a lot I suspect.
As a consolation when we have Indy ref2 we set the terms. Hope we get a move on soon.
Thanks Nana for all the links.
The penny is beginning to drop for folks I think, but there’s nothing joyous about the ‘I told you so’s. The guy who fixes my car was a No voter. When the car went in for its MOT in January this year, he told me about the disaster that is Brexit. ‘People don’t realise just how big this is, all the car parts, all of them, come from Europe, and that’s just cars.’
Which was my prompt for a wee conversation.
So, Yes we can, and now we bloody well must.
@Tat u,
Nothing personal, but the voting system will probably be postal in nature. As you may be aware there have been queries about that methodology being suitable shall we say for “Adjustment”.
Bob Mack
No apologies needed. I can see that there could be problems with postal votes, and I understand the need to sort this out, but I find the btl comments very anti “expats” on this site.
We are not all “rich”, we are not all “unionists” or “Brit nats”. We have not all given up on an independent Scotland.
I imagine the percentages of “yes” and “no” voters of Scots overseas probably work out the same as those in Scotland – or maybe even more in favour, as I have found Scots abroad tend to be more proud of Scotland when away from home.
I still have family and friends in Scotland. Not all are Yessers, sadly, and I work very hard to try and convince them to change
Is Tory MP Andrew Bowie being punted as the next Tory leader in Scotland. Check him out.
link to caltonjock.com
Expats voting.
Tatu 3 – with this new voting system I believe you and your husband should be able to vote, the old ‘no representation without taxation’ or whatever. If you are required by your work to live and work abroad but pay tax here in Scotland do you have an ‘S’ on your payslip/P60? This should be the deciding factor on whether ‘expats’ could vote in Scottish elections.
I also believe this will be abused by the system.
My hubby has relatives who have been in Canada for over 50 years. I don’t think they should have the vote.
I lived and worked in Spain for 12 years and paid my tax in Spain also my wealth tax on my property in Spain plus my business tax because I was registered there even though I was Extranero
My question @tatu3 is how were you asked to pay tax in the UK if registered in another country unless you have an address in the UK and or business or property requiring a UK tax code or unless you are member of HM Armed forces and not considered domiciled
I’m genuinely puzzled
I have noticed a few comments above about recent comments from the Japanese with respect to Brexit and its likely effects on their investments in UK.
This should not have come as a surprise to the UK Government because way back in September 2016 the Japanese sent a very detailed, 15 page letter to the UK Government setting out what it wanted/needed from the Brexit negotiations if it was to continue with its investments in the UK.
Here is a link to an article published at the time in the Guardian.
link to archive.is
I think some of the comments at the time were along the lines of ‘the Japanese have produced more than the UK Government hasconcerning negotiations and what is required from them’ That still appears to be the case.
Expat voting in UK elections.
They always have been able to vote but it is time limited under what is known as the 15-year rule.
The UK Government published plans in 2016 to scrap this rule but had certainly not done so in time for the 2017 general election.
To make this change would require an Act of Parliament I believe.
There was a Commons Library briefing paper on the subject published in January 2018. Here is a link to it
link to researchbriefings.parliament.uk
O/T
Independence Live crowd funder – 94% and 15hours to go.
Come guys, no good moaning about the EBC & other sh:tes.
Also remember your daily TSTV.
We need every platform to get the word out there.
re;Tatu@4.15
Not ‘anti expat’ at all, not in the slightest and no idea why anyone would think that. But, questioning the ethics and validity of allowing those who have not lived in the UK for many years, to have a major vote in what happens to the country, (though we know that the ‘UK’ is not in fact a country) politically.
I have family in Australia, who have lived there for over 25 years, I love them. I do not however want them to have a vote in the UK. Their knowledge of and interest in UK politics is minimal at best, they have an expat conservatism, which is not relevant in the politics of a country they do not live in. That’s relevant to their own Australian political arena.
Their knowledge if any, and information of UK politics, comes from their own biased media. It’s bad enough people in the UK not being properly informed, but to allow folks to put a cross on a sheet of paper who are even less likely to be informed, is dangerous imo.
Well, they do call them Moggy Minors, Rees-Mogg will be so pleased.
And its a cut and shunt pretending to be a convertible! Get out now Hamish!
Like the UK it was alright in its day but despite May and Mogg we may not get back to the glory days of 1948. More likely chaos of the early 70’s; the power cuts, petrol rationing and permanent financial crises before we got into the Common Market as it was then.
Great toon, Chris.
@H&S
I had 2 of them, an 848 split-screen and a 998, with a standard tolerance of a thou, I smoothed out mine and tuned them, valves lapped the lot – all standard parts, and kept going by knowing every scrappie around. I broke a crankshaft in two on the 998 after a 90 mile measured on the A1 / M1 by speedo and mileposts at 95 mph.
As I always say, it’s not the car that’s slow, it’s the driver.
Comments re allowing ex-pat Scots to vote in Inderef2 assume that the Scottish Government would agree to it. Unlikely.
However a trade-off could be to ban English ex-pats in Scotland from voting in the Referendum
Can’t have it both ways.
Re ex pat Scots. The largest group will be living in England. When they won’t be exposed to campaigning, only the most politically engaged will bother exploring the real issues behind our bid for Indy.
I may be wrong, but I suspect many would vote to maintain the Union because as residents in England they will consider that to be in their personal interests.
Approx. 750,000 people living in England were born in Scotland. Over half a million could register to vote if it were allowed. That could be 1 in 8 voters!
I think it wrong that they can so fundamentally effect Scotland’s future when many of them will probably never move back.
Of course in all things there are always exceptions, like The Rev himself.
As for the rest of the world, I see figures of about quarter of a million. To be honest I think them more likely to vote YES, especially those in the EU.
However, a simple and fair approach IMO is only those who have been resident in Scotland for a reasonable time should vote in Indyref2.
Re Brexit and slightly O/T
Latest plan i’ve read concerns fruit growers who are now planning to grow their raspberries and blueberries in China because they don’t think they’ll get enough migrant workers to pick them next summer.
An Angus farmer hashed to throw away hundreds of tons of food because there were no pickers. It has cost him £ 30,000 and he said it could have fed 15,000 people for a year???
(not sure his arithmetic is up to scratch?)
Allowing so-called Scottish expats to vote in any future referendum would be the summit of folly. If you’ve met one you would understand immediately why. Reactionary Unionist, little Englanders to the their finger tips. Political clones of Davidson’s dreary gang.
Besides as the British state does not require its citizens to have ID cards the logistics of such an enterprise would be complex and open to massive fraud.
Ottomanboi says:
10 February, 2018 at 6:41 pm
Allowing so-called Scottish expats to vote in any future referendum would be the summit of folly.
They couldn’t last time so don’t worry, too much.
USA citizens can vote from outside America for their lifetimes. England’s already got 10+million voters that never vote. Look at them now.
@ Ottomanboi
I am a Scottish expat and I am typing this post with my non ractionary non unionist non little Englander finger tips.
There are plenty of Scots who live outside the country and support independence.
I think the idea of using scottish tax code for being allowed to vote and prove residency is a good idea.
Not sure how it would affect spouses who are not working and taken time off to bring up kids.
Do they still get a tax code?
Good friend of mine has lived in England for many years and there’s no doubt she would vote against Indy. There again she is a Borderer but the last conversation I had with her about the issue got a bit heated. She insisted things were very nasty in her old home town at the time of the 2014 referendum and naturally the Yes voters were to blame!
I’m pretty sure she believes everything she reads in the gutter press down south because Nicola is the most awful woman apparently. Not a good idea to give these expats the vote imo.
@uno mas
Bravo! but possibly an exception proving the rule lol!. I’ve met some horrors.
Ottomanboi says:
10 February, 2018 at 6:41 pm
Allowing so-called Scottish expats to vote in any future referendum would be the summit of folly.
Complete nonsense. Insulting as well. You would think that well educated, skilled Scottish citizens with international connections would be considered an asset to a newly independent country.
@ Ottomanboi
And I´ve met some real independence warriors.
You must keep poor company!
Under no circumstances should ex-pats be allowed to vote.
Most of them look back at home through rose tinted spectacles, and remember the happy times in the old country, they resent the thought of any change to their ‘Auld Country’ and would rather things were left the way they were.
.
During Indy Ref 1 I met a few expats who “came home” from England, and full of the gutter press hated the SNP and hated the idea of Indy. Often their knowledge of modern Scotland was very sketchy. The whole town of Corby filled with ex-pats remember pled with Scotland “don’t go”, and they were the nicer ones. The attitude I saw from ex-pat Scots in England myself on visits was very anti-indy. If the 800,000 got a vote, I reckon it would be about 700,000 NO and a maximum of 100,000 YES.
I personaly would not wish to be allowed to vote in an election in a country where I did not live or pay taxes.
People who migrate vote with their feet.
End of!
Came home for the weekend or a week’s visit I should have said.
The ‘ex-pat’ question is one which causes full-on arguments and bitterness. Alex Salmond, in interview post-indyref 1 (forget where) said that deciding who would be granted a vote was one of the most difficult things the SNP had to wrestle with, and he said it in such a way that it was difficult not to surmise that he felt they’d got it wrong.
I don’t have any strong feelings on it one way or t’other – I just want *my* vote to be counted properly and the poll to be fair. That’s all. Decisions on who should be eligible should be made by the SG. Likewise with other contentious issues e.g. currency – just keep things as simple as possible, make yer minds up, then stick to what you’ve said. Indy supporters then get behind you and we make the final push to rid ourselves of these WM maniacs.
@Tatu3 says: 10 February, 2018 at 3:38 pm:
“No matter where in the world I have been, there are always plenty of Scots living and working there. Do you consider them no longer Scottish then? “
That’s the usual pish blethered by certain, “expats”.
Let us be quite clear exactly what is the definition of an, “Expat”.
The term is short for:- expatriate
noun: expatriate; plural noun: expatriates.
an expatriate is a person who lives outside their native country.
If their native country is Scotland and they mainly reside outwith Scotland they are still Scots but they are not one of the people of Scotland and they will live, work and pay tax in their adopted country.
In 1962 my entire immediate family, excepting my myself, my wife and our three children sold up, packed their bags and settled in Australia. Both my mother and father are buried in Australian and my sibling sister, her husband and her children and their children are still in Australia and none have ever set foot back in Scotland. They will forever be ethnic Scots but have been part of the people of Australia since 1962 and some of the younger ones are born and bred Australians.
The policy of the SNP has long been that they represent, “All the People of Scotland”, and it is often repeated, “It matters not where you came from but does matter where we are all going forward together.”
It has long been the history of Scotland that we welcome immigrants with open arms and there is no history of ghettos in Scotland. So much so that immigrant families are absorbed as Scots within a single generation.
The truth is, that if you wish to be one of the people of Scotland you must come and live in Scotland, register to vote in Scottish elections and pay your taxes in Scotland.
O/T
The National today had an article that reported the negative impact on the UK’s trade deficit recently due to a temporary closure for repair of the North Sea Forties Oil Pipeline. (link to thenational.scot )
Linked to the short term closure of the pipeline, The National’s piece states: “… the ONS (Office for National Statistics) said a drop in the UK’s oil exports – as well as large increases in the price of fuel imports – had the largest impact on the trade in goods deficit, which widened by £3.3bn, …” Note that figure, an increase in the deficit by £3.3bn, from what was a short term operational interruption.
This is worth thinking about very carefully. Once Scotland becomes independent, c.90% of the present oil production from the UK Continental Shelf overnight becomes production from Scottish waters i.e. IT BECOMES SCOTLAND’S EXPORTS, no longer an export from the Kingdom of England.
From England’s perspective, it will be like the Forties Pipeline being closed permanently – except much worse!
In my darker moments, I fear that the implications for England’s presently fragile economy of Scotland becoming independent are so bad (much worse than but added to BREXIT) that the very substantial and ruthless powers of the British establishment will simply not permit it to happen!!
Stewart’s @ 7.26pm. They are going to fight very hard to hold on to Scotland
I am definitely in the minority amongst the ex pat Scots that I know down here. As in I, of course, can’t wait for Scotland to be a normal self governing country.
I blame the press and negative media. (However one is Highland land owning Tory farmer stock!)
Much as I would love to be able vote for Indy, if expats skewed the vote and the result (whatever it was) turned out to be a disaster for Scotland then we wouldn’t have to live with the consequences. And that doesn’t seem right to me.
If ex-pats wish to support Indy they can always vote with their wallets and purses.
Plenty of Indy supporting groups desperate for funds and there is the option of an IScot subscription as well.
We want a better Scotland and any ex-pats who want to return, before or after Indy will be most welcome. We need the skills and the drive.
Robert Peffers @ 7:26 pm
I’d like to say I agree completely with your analysis.
What you argue for is completely compatible with the CIVIC NATIONALISM that I understood that the vast majority of the Yes movement agreed with. If I’m wrong on the latter then we need to beware – there are some very unpleasant ‘slippery slopes’ out there!
In May 2014, 3 of my sons their wives, children and I went to Spain for a week’s holiday. 2 days after we arrived my eldest son, who lives in Surrey, said to me, completely out of the blue, ” You won’t get in the EU.” To which I replied, “Fishing, renewables and oil.” He never mentioned the indyref again.
I wouldn’t give him the vote, although to be fair he is having second thoughts since the UK voted for Brexit.
Dr Jim @ 3.09pm
No taxation without representation and it surely must work the other way round, no representation without taxation
100% correct Doc and I think that should be included on EVERYONE’S response on the SG’s website
link to consult.gov.scot
C’mon people lets show Nicola that we will not allow wastemonster to fcuk with our ref , and let’s make it clear we DEMAND independent non electoral commission observers ,no holiday home owner votes , no non resident student votes . postal votes severely restricted and proof required to qualify , minimum residential qualification of 6 years
As others have posted if you don’t pay TAX here you have no right to determine OUR and our KIDS FUTURE
@stewartb says: 10 February, 2018 at 7:56 pm:
“I understood that the vast majority of the Yes movement agreed with. If I’m wrong on the latter then we need to beware – there are some very unpleasant ‘slippery slopes’ out there!”
You are correct on both counts, stewartb, there are indeed several very slippery slopes out there but I’ve supported the SNP for many decades and, to date, your second count has always come out on top and Civic Nationalism has always come out on top.
It is, though often sad that when the Civic Nationalism wins through there has always been the sad loss of many good patriotic Scots that fall through the cracks and go down along with the more extreme forms of nationalism.
Perhaps the worst such episode was the expulsion from the party of Siol nan Gaidheal, (Seed of the Gael), and such right-wing organisations as, “The Free Scotland Party and “The Scottish Enterprise Party”.
Here’s one such reference to such things.
link to heraldscotland.com
The trouble with such organisations is that the SNP were being tarred with the same, very broad, brush but the SNP has always espoused true civic nationalism.
@Robert Peffers
Pretty much Robert. The franchise criteria currently stands as residence. The people who live, work and pay taxes within Scotland’s borders.
I don’t see that changing as regards Scottish elections or a referendum (at the moment). Of course the UK’s diaspora have an opinion on the politics of their point of origin. It’s only natural and all too human, but they chose to live, work and pay taxes in some other part of the globe. That is the nation to which they owe their own current focus.
To those who wish the indy movement well from overseas, their support is greatly appreciated and any aid in making our case heard across the globe likewise.
Please understand that the vote of any referendum rightly belongs to those who wish to make life in Scotland their future.
Rock (28th June 2017 – “Slight reprise”):
“The UK will have a “snap” Brexit while we are caught napping with no legislation in place for an independence referendum.”
Ian Brotherhood;
re Alex Salmond 2014 vote
I distinctly remember him doing a Q and A after a TV discussion and a young, smartly dressed lad asked, I was born and raised in Scotland but I’m working here in London now, is it fair that I won’t get the opportunity to vote re indy?
Alex’s reply was classic, he was polite, firm and informative -the referendum about Scotland’s future should be decided by the people who live and work in Scotland, this is standard practice in national referenda and since it is happening two years from now, that’s surely enough time for you to get a job and move back to Scotland in time to vote if that is so important to you.
I took that advice, moving back in July 2014 ( without a job to go to) but ensuring that I had the right to vote.
I sometimes wonder if the young man did, or was he a plant?
Knowing what we do about the rigging of QT audiences, I suspect he was the latter…
“The truth is, that if you wish to be one of the people of Scotland you must come and live in Scotland, register to vote in Scottish elections and pay your taxes in Scotland.”
Agree with Mr P.
And, as others have said, no taxation without representation, and the other way around.
No-one’s saying some “ex-pats” are not potential Yessers but many are reactionary types who remember the Scotland of the 60/70/80s, like my brother, who was of the Dambuster generation, lived in Kent and would never, ever, have voted for an independent Scotland.
Great supporter of our diddy football and rugby teams, though…..
Those living in and paying tax in Scotland of whatever origin are the only ones who should have the right to vote in Indyref2, and I hope the SG are going to tighten the loopholes the desperate Britnats will be hoping to insert.
Uno Mas , Tatu3 AND all SCOTS FROM ANYWHERE , Genuinely THANK YOU for your support for our country Scotland ,
Please do not take the discussion and comments on expats as derisory or bigoted towards yourselves , it is just that we in Scotland are suffering the austerity , brutality , denigration , disrespect , lies and misinformation on a daily basis personally , and I like many are totally suspicious that the WM govt conceding voting rights to expats is totally out of character for them , as you are all probably aware these duplicitous dangerous cretins never give anything away for free unless it is a life threatening illness .
So with these thoughts ask yourselves in our situation what would your reaction be .
Again thanks for your support and we hope you will come home and help us build a Scotland fit for EVERYONE
@stewartb
The simple fact is that Scotland would – over time, run a trade surplus which tends to result in a government surplus (see national sectoral accounting) Not something that is special in itself unless you are a neoliberal Tory or blairite.
Englands trade deficit would certainly increase adding to the fiscal deficit. This is why they can never let us go.
Many Brit nats play the ‘deficit’ card against Scotland. Well for one, you can only run a deficit by issuing more money and then issuing bonds (we don’t have the sovereign power to do this)
Also they fail to understand the difference between personal deficits (in their own lives) and govt deficits. A govt will run a defcit to make up shortfall in tax revenue. At the aggregate (whole economy) spending IS income. Your and my spending depends on someone spending money.
Reducing the amount of money in the economy by imposing austerity etc, ultimately reduces the amount of jobs in the economy and hence tax yield, adding to the size of the deficit.
Hi from Oz.
My guess is the redacted word is ‘normally’
No residency period then no vote simple.
Been a lurker for a long time and have learned a lot on this site. Today I decided to make a wee comment just to get ma feet wet, but I’m quite shocked at the negativity being shown towards fellow Scots on here. I agree that proof of residency should be required to vote at the very least but this arguing about who’s a Scot and who’s no’ beggars belief. Think I’ll go back to lurking.
@silverbuick 9:01pm
Agreed.
We think like Scots, talk like Scots and act like Scots. We ARE Scots.
We just should not have the vote unless we are resident.
Hi from Tassie:
It’s breakfast time here and have just switched on Ipad so haven’t read many comments on site but it suddenly occurred to me regarding voting in a second Independence Referendeum – will Stuart be allowed a vote. I hope so!!
@frogesque.
I agree about giving our support even if we can’t vote. I support Wings, obviously, and love my iScot subscription and am a member of the SNP, even though I can’t vote for them. I support many of the causes highlighted on these pages. It’s not much but I hope it helps.
There is a family home that I hope to be able to afford to keep on when it will, sadly, become empty. I hope one day to return with my Scottish passport and the kids too, who desperately wanted to stay members of the EU.
I would like to see Barnier, or whoever make some definitive statement regarding Scotland’s ability to stay in the EU. It could be a game changer.
@silverbuick –
Welcome! Please don’t disappear back into the shadows, we need the fresh voices!
@Meg –
Aye, it’s easy to forget that these decisions had been made, what, a full two years before the referendum? Even if Alex/Nicola and abody else in the SNP realised (in 2012/13) that they’d made bad calls on some of these issues, they couldn’t be seen to change the broad thrust of ‘Scotland’s Future’, it would’ve blown the entire campaign to bits. We’ll maybe have to wait until AS and NS et al publish their diaries before we’ll know the full details, but I suspect quite a few of us won’t be around by then!
😉
Silverbuck 9.01pm There is no arguing about who is a Scot and who isnae , if you want tae be a Scot you ur , the discussion not argument is about voting rights , if you have an opinion you are welcome to share it , people may not agree with your opinion but that is their prerogative . Don’t just lurk give opinion
I missed this earlier too much footie and golf 🙂
but for those that haven’t seen it.
Hark the Herald.
Nicola Sturgeon to declare victory in battle for EU powers
link to archive.is
So hands up those who believe the Herald article today that Sturgeon has won and May has done a u-turn on clause 11.
link to heraldscotland.com
Maybe someone can Arcive it for us. -ta!
We’ve to believe that WM ministers have agreed that powers returning from Brussels should go to the devolved Scottish Government. Fears that Peers would reject the Bill as unconstitutional have caused the reversal of the planned return to WM.
Here are the weasel words from the Herald Article ( my italics) and I think this is the WM get out clause which will allow them to send all the returning powers to Fluffy at his new super -duper HQ in Edinburgh:-
*One source close to the process explained: “Officials working on Clause 11 are now moving to a phase where they put the powers more directly into the hands of the devolved administrations; reversing where Clause 11 actually started from but enabling the UK Government to put in appropriate safeguards to protect the internal market as and when they are required. This is of fundamental importance.”
The vast majority of the 111 powers and responsibilities coming from Brussels after Brexit Day will go immediately to Holyrood but others will need common UK frameworks to protect the internal market.*
@Meg merrilees
Jings! You must be a seer! 🙂
I don’t believe it.
I think his will Mary, don’t know if many have noticed but on Stu’s twitter page it no longer says ‘Bath’ as his location, it says ‘Greater Scotland’. Unless he’s just put that there to establish his ‘Scottish’ bonefides, I think it may mean that he is already back in Scotland.
I could of course be completely wrong about this, but it has definitely altered from his previous location of Bath.
@silverbuick
Lurk no more and welcome. 🙂
Being a Scot is a state of mind and a way of living. You don’t need a state or borders to care. Voting as a Scot is a point of law and precedence.
There’s a world of Scots out there. 🙂
They knew in the Lords, in fact it was a central part of many of those participating in the debate, that they had to find some weasly worded way of the devolved powers returning directly to the parliament, if they didn’t then the UK faced huge constitutional crisis? It was inevitable that they would fudge this in some way to somehow get ‘legislative consent’ from the parliament.
Now, where does this leave us, we’re still coming out of the CU and SM? What fucking difference whether we have 111 powers or none, when our economy will be devastated by this?
What about MPs, should they be allowed an indyrer2 vote?
– after all they only live and work in London because there are no proper jobs for them in Scotland, ie much the same reason that expatriated all the other expats.
The Herald article is “Oh look there’s a squirrel!” Bullshit.
The big story is Japanese car companies’s plan to relocate post hard Brexit.
Holy shit don’t mention that.
All will be for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
Oops.
O/T
Put some stuff on Off Topic following the YES meeting in Glasgow today
Meg merrilees @ 9.28pm If that Herald story is “true”, whit the hell is Mundell up too. He seems to be busy empire building in Edinburgh.
I’ll no haud ma breath on this one.
To all of you folk who are upset by the expat vote thingy, read twathater at 8.56 & 9.24 and Macart @ 9.41pm, says it all really.
To all the lurkers, lurk no more, and welcome. Give us your views and opinions, nice to have some newer voices.
OT – defence
Handy infographic about timeline for QE and PoW
link to savetheroyalnavy.org
That’s just reminded me I’ll need to phone my Aunty in Birmingham for her permission and approval as to what colour I paint ma hoose
Oh haud oan I’ve got a nephew in America am I no entitled tae a vote on sumthin there then
Christ on a bike!
O/T
Just in case you miss this – about award nominations for the documentary firm ‘London Calling’ about BBC bias:
link to indyref2.scot
Congratulations to all involved!
As I believe the F.M. quoted recently, “I am Scottish by formation” from author Muriel Spark. Thanks for the kind replies everyone.
A private political conversation overheard by a French Ambassador and reported to a newspaper by a Liberal Democrat, I’ve redacted the names
We’d like to grow the economy please so we need immigrants
Naw! get yer ain fruit pickers
We were thinking about scientists and neurosurgeons and stuff
Naw! train yer weans get them aff thur xboxes
That’ll take too long and our economy will go backwards
Is that a fact! good!
It sounds like you want Scotland to fail
Nailed it sweaties! you’re so slow ya bunch of ginger nuts
This is the same thing you’ve said to every other country who left the UK and they still left no matter what you did
Aye but we wrecked them before we left and that’s all that counts! Engerland! Wee arra championees
Welcome silverbuick.
Hey there Daisy Walker xx ~
“Here are Scotland’s terms” (105,253 current hits).
link to youtube.com
Welcome back silverbuick ~
Cool car.
Yes 🙂
Being a Scot arises from being born in Scotland, or having parents or grandparents born in Scotland and choosing to become a citizen of Scotland, or, coming to live here and with the necessary residence qualifications, seeking Scottish citizenship,
The idea that I can be born in say, China, live in China, but believe that simply believing myself a Scot makes me legally a Scot, is without basis in law, as well as being rather ridiculous and just a shade delusional.
I might drive at 90 miles an hour but consider myself as driving at 70 miles an hour. A speed gun and the law of the land will decide the reality of my situation.
Cactus
Damned right YES. And this time we OWN project fear (brexit) and all the positivity of Indy
We’re the safe, sensible, choice of least resistance, ones, folks.
Nice sensible facts, 2 x negative (Brexit), 1 x positive e.g. Talking up Scotland, etc…
Different pace and ‘mood music’ to the last one I grant you, but realistically much more in keeping with the Scottish personality – we totally get shit storms and dour.
They’ve geared it down to our level and they’re playing our tune. Superb.
Yes we can and now we must.
I might drive at 90 miles an hour but consider myself as driving at 70 miles an hour. A speed gun and the law of the land will decide the reality of my situation.”
Ex[ats or immigrants, whatever happened to John Barrowman or rather, what did he spend his share of the JK Trolling Better Together millions, all the way from Palm Springs, California, USA. Its him what Teresa wants to give the vote to, which is very generous of her.
From the UKOK archives.
link to youtube.com
@silverbuick says: 10 February, 2018 at 9:01 pm:
“… I’m quite shocked at the negativity being shown towards fellow Scots on here.”
First of all welcome to the blog and good to get new blood. But Whoa! On the negativity being shown to fellow Scots.
What negativity would that be? No one has said that they. are not Scots. That is exactly what the term, “expatriate Scot”, means as does its short version, “expat”. It simple means a Scot not living and/or working in Scotland. It does not mean they cease to be ethnic Scots.
The SNP laid down the description many, many years ago and for very good reason. It was far from being a hurried decision, “The People of Scotland”. They defined it as:-
“Anyone, of any colour, creed or country of origin who is mainly resident in Scotland, is registered to vote in Scottish elections and who pays tax as a resident of Scotland.”
In other word their origins and ethnicity is unimportant but what is important is that they are one of the people of Scotland and, believe it or not, that includes ethnic Irish, Welsh and English residents in Scotland who live, work and pay their taxes as a Scottish resident.
First of all the SNP’s name is NOT, “The Scottish Nationalist Party”, (i.e. a party of nationalists).
It is, “The Scottish National Party”, (i.e. the party of the Scottish Nation). Although you wouldn’t think so if you believe the Westminster Establishment and its political parties and their state owned and controlled media. These never miss a chance to refer to them wrongly as, “The Scottish Nationalists”.
In point of fact the Westminster lot and their supporters are demonstrably far more, “Blood & Soil Nationalistic”, than the SNP has ever been.
Which is why the SNP have always claimed that they represent, “All the People of Scotland”, and do not claim to represent only Scots by birth.
So it is a fairly simple matter to define just who it is they represent for they cannot, under any circumstance, represent a person, born of two born in Scotland parents, who lives, works and pays taxes to a foreign country. i.e. expatriate Scots.
It really is just as simple as that. Such a person is an Expatriate Scot and their government is the foreign power they live under and support with their taxes.
No one say they are not ethnic Scots but it would be ludicrous to allow such as my own sister, who has paid her taxes and been permanently resident in Queensland, Australia for over 56 years. Factually she was born in the same house, in the same room, in the same bed of the same mother and father as myself.
No one claims such as she are not Scots but I’d be the very first to complain that she has no right to vote in either a United Kingdom or Scottish election. Of course if she were to come home to Scotland to stay she would no longer be an expatriate Scot.
Does that, perhaps, clarify the matter?
Aye may have found the very four-wheeled beastie:
link to youtube.com
If it’s good enough for the c_a_h / t_s_ / d_m_y (singular)
Why would they want to crash it into a wall?
Spare parts are not available.
Pity, such a pity.
Silverbuick, welcome to wings, we have a Wingers social get together on 7th April in Woodside in Glenrothes, venue is The Otters Head. Feel free to come along and meet us, new wingers are always welcome.
Full details are posted over on the Off Topic page and will be update regularly.
Mornin’ Robert Peffers ~
Do ya reckon John Bull could do with a Cargobob to try n get over:
link to youtube.com
Not too long to go now.
Cargobob to no avail.
Love Scotland.
Everybuddy.
Whom else watched this on their guest tv yesterday KITT:
link to youtube.com
Da-da-ra-da.
Aye did.
Look out for that glass wall at The End of this clip.
Breaker come in William Wallace…
Ahm a Night rider:
link to youtube.com
@manandboy says: 10 February, 2018 at 11:59 pm:
“The idea that I can be born in say, China, live in China, but believe that simply believing myself a Scot makes me legally a Scot, is without basis in law.”
Balderdash!
You are confusing three quite different things – ethnicity, culture – and law.
For example Cliff Richards was born in India, of English parents. Is he Indian or English? What, though, if he had been born in India of English parents but brought up by an Indian Nanny as culturally Indian?
I worked with a bloke called Hamish MacAlpine whose Scots born mother and father died in a shipping disaster. He was adopted and brought up from a baby by a an English couple in Portsmouth.
He was thus ethnically Scottish but had never lived in Scotland and was most certainly culturally English. What’s more he didn’t want it any other way and actually disliked Scotland and Scots.
New Knight, different day:
link to youtube.com
Guest tv has been a long while.
Cheers tae oor J.L. Baird.
That one was fun 😉
Hit the CO2 KITT!
X.
Most countries in the EU disagree with you, Robert. But I don’t expect that’ll make any difference to your opinion.
Marie Clark
If that Herald story is ‘true’ then what is Mundell up to – exactly!!!
Enlarging the Scottish office- increasing the number of staff and budget and preparing a large building in Edinburgh for what?
To rule Scotland instead of the elected Scottish Government… that’s what I mean about the weasel words –
“…enabling the UK Government to put in appropriate safeguards ( the enlarged Scotland Office) to protect the internal market as and when they are required. This is of fundamental importance.”
In other words:
We’ll let nasty Nicola think that she’s won, she’ll not hold her pesky Indyref2, the Sewel Convention will see to it that despite all 111 powers returning to Holyrood, all decisions taken in the devolved regions will have to be agreed by the relevant Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland office in situ – “appropriate safeguards as and when they are required”
“The vast majority of the 111 powers and responsibilities coming from Brussels after Brexit Day will go immediately to Holyrood but others will need common UK frameworks to protect the internal market.”
So the really important ones like fishing, farming, energy etc will need common UK frameworks to protect the internal market from Scotland because WM’s sunk without control over those matters.
I don’t trust them one iota and I’m sure the alarm bells are ringing at Bute House as well.
It’s a ruse.
When did YOU last use your illusion?:
link to youtube.com
Eh listen to ra words and look at Cairnstoon above.
The storm is getting closer, it’s not strange.
Back to you Yes2 ~
Home X.
I’m Scottish my Mum was English her father and mother were English but her grandmother was Irish
My Father was Scottish as was his father and mother for about a thousand years as far as I know and they could have been black from wherever they came from, who knows, what matters is who you are now and where you want to be
Culture is good and Scotland has thousands of years of it long before anyone else set foot on these Islands and it should be rightly celebrated as other normal countries do
Most of Scotlands problems stem from the Empires Englification of all things, it’s how they went about their business of robbing half the world so folk shouldn’t take it so personally against themselves that many Scottish people resent that culture being stamped out
Think of it like the American Indian or the Australian Aborigine, Scots have a right to get touchy from time to time about their own place in the world
England has it’s place in the world too, that’s why they call themselves British now, ye see, comedy, you’ve gotta have a wee laugh
ps did ye see the kilted GnR dolphin above Scotland?
Lookin’ good Dr Jim ~
Fuckin’ excellent in fact 🙂
It’s weekend Sunday.
Good knight.
Maybe.
Baby.
Impact assessment.
Thanks to TWATHATER I’ve cooled down a bit now but it’s obvious to me that some Scots like OTTOMANBOI have big gobs and faulty wiring to the brain regarding Scots who don’t live inside of Scotlands borders.
My family moved south to England to find work which meant that I spent most of my youth/education in Yorkshire. Later I met a German woman and ended up in Germany where we married.
I’m a Scot who lives abroad but that doesn’t make me any less Scottish or hate my country. But, no, it’s not right for me to have a vote but it is definitly right that all people who live and work in Scotland should be able to vote. Incl. all those foreigners who made Scotland THEIR home.
I’m also btw. the proud owner of a German driving licence (the old version called a “Lappen” (nickname meaning “dish/floor cloth”) where it doesn’t say UK or British in it but Scottish and Scotland. I tricked them…!! 😉
I also happen to be a pensioner, you know Ottomanboi, those folk who all have white hair, are swivel-eyed tory voting loonies etc.
It’s the middle of the night so probably no ones reading this but it still had to be said though.
There be a song for every occasion.
Graf Midgehunter @ 2:17am
Its the middle of the day here so I am reading your post.
Well said.
Meg Merrilees 1.16am I agree with all you posted apart from the bit ( it’s a ruse ) it’s not its a fecking insult just how stupid do these a*sewipes think we and the SNP SG are
Aussi, cheers for yer shared 9:28pm Meg merrilees and call me dave
link to archive.is
Nice timing 🙂
Yous know.
Hey Cactus how about this one….’Baby you can drive my car”
I am one of those expats that we are talking about and agree it would be an extremely bad idea to give us the vote.I have two brothers one who has lived in England most of his adult life and he is against independence.Both brothers are low information voters and Brexit fans and avoid discussion on anything to do with politics.One day i would hope to return but only to live in a free and independent Scotland and will continue to contribute where i and when i can until that day happens.
Stuart McTavish
MP’s don’t actually live in London, they aren’t ‘expats’ in any sense whatsoever!
It’s maybe worth remembering that if the franchise in 2014 was limited to those resident and born in Scotland, we’d be independent by now.
@manandboy says: 11 February, 2018 at 1:13 am:
“Most countries in the EU disagree with you, Robert. But I don’t expect that’ll make any difference to your opinion.”
And your 28 sources for making that claim, manandboy, are what exactly?
@ yesindyref2 10.06
Your O/T on defence. I scrolled down on this page and came across this:
link to savetheroyalnavy.org
It is dated 1st April and I only got to about the 4th or 5th line before I had to give up, but some people actually think like this?! Just a bit o’ banter?
@Graeme says: 11 February, 2018 at 7:23 am:
“It’s maybe worth remembering that if the franchise in 2014 was limited to those resident and born in Scotland, we’d be independent by now.”
Aye! Graeme, and it is also worth remembering that if the franchise in 2014 was limited to what it originally was under the Romans, and then the several versions of the Germanic Tribes that still are legally the monarchy of England and the hereditary peers, we would all be slaves, serfs or villeins to the landed gentry. BTW: only the male members of that elite group of franchised Lords would have the vote as females and children were legally owned by those males.
Some of whom are the monarchy and others are descendants of the aristocracy who still sit in the House of Lords as hereditary peers and Lords of the Law and the Church of England. We are forced to pay them each £300 per day, plus expenses, while subsidising their high quality food, drink and leisure activities.
Many of those slaves, serfs or villeins who are forced to pay for these lords are homeless and starving on the streets of the
disUnited Kingdom.Links
link to welfareweekly.com
link to scottovoce.wordpress.com
link to indyref2.scot
link to autonomyscotland.org
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
link to theorkneynews.scot
England’s NHS / link to skwawkbox.org
link to futurism.com
Government internal communications indicate Theresa May is due to capitulate to the hard-right and take Britain out of the EU with no deal, securing the worst case outcome shown in the government’s own impact assessments.
link to byline.com
As Britain Stumbles Over Brexit, Support Grows for 2nd Vote
link to archive.is
link to forbes.com
link to theneweuropean.co.uk
link to opendemocracy.net
link to ucl.ac.uk
link to paulbigland.blog
Theresa May faces revolt of leading Tory donors
link to archive.is
Falkland Islands is to have full access to EU trade.
Graf Midgehunter at 2.17
The real reason we didn’t win in 2014 was that not enough Scots voted YES.
Can we stop the blame game.
And your 28 sources for making that claim
In the EU only Ireland, Cyprus, Denmark, and Malta disenfranchise their citizens who are resident outside their national country, and Ireland has a referendum on March to enable voting for the presidency. Citizenship is derived through a mixture of jus sanguis, and naturalization. Independence should be about normalization. Normal countries define citizenship through parentage, and long term residency coupled with economic contribution to the society, not “state of mind”.
@Dave McEwan Hill 8.46
That comment should be plastered on every wall, banner and car!
Our case in 2014 was not strong enough to convince enough waverers. We have to do better and it won’t be achieved by alienating folk who might otherwise be persuaded.
We need to stop the nightingale and concentrate on the good folk who are prepared to listen an back their own and their kids’ futures.
The real reason we didn’t win in 2014 was that not enough Scots voted YES.
I agree with that statement. I also feel that there is an element within the independence movement that is overly sensitive to accusations of racism and anti-Englishness to the point where what is taken without granted in any other country is treated as a sign of blood and soil lunacy.
Graeme says:
11 February, 2018 at 7:23 am
It’s maybe worth remembering that if the franchise in 2014 was limited to those resident and born in Scotland, we’d be independent by now.
Aye, and if the franchise had been extended to expat Scots the defeat for YES would undoubtedly have been a lot larger.
The franchise is what it is, we need to put our efforts into something more productive than looking for someone to blame.
Ex-pat voters:
Somewhere I have a screen shot from the Saudi gazette online poll in 2014 showing 76% in favour of independance, so who knows. Maybe the majority of ex-pats would rather see an independant Scotland.
Good morning Kangaroo,
or is that good evening?
4 inches of snow here, btw.
What’s your weather?
mogabi @ 0700
Well they certainly don’t commute .. and I doubt they pay income tax in Scotland either
Impact Assessment on Scotland nothing to see here by Scottish press and broadcasters move on.
BBC Politics Show still banging on about Police Scotland at 11.45 while Radio Scotland press review mentioned Kezia Dugdale’s critique of Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit stance in Sunday Herald
link to heraldscotland.com
they failed to discuss Labour’s Brexit shambles and went on about equal march in Glasgow and implications for Glasgow without mentioning it was caused by previous Labour administration.
Nana says:
An interesting one. We’ve been hearing same rumour online for a few days. But what I find most interesting is the msm are not reporting anything like this.
Either, it’s just not true, or the msm are purposely collectively avoiding it.
If it turns out to be true (and I think it is) then we have witnessed msm behaviour which should be worrying everyone!
Seems voter eligibility has taken over , well instead of moaning or bickering about it endlessly make your opinion known.
The link was posted yesterday by twathater , the link is to the Scottish government survey on electoral reform consultation .
A word of warning this is not a two minute questionnaire and some of the questions are well pretty vague , if I remember rightly there are 7 sections with a indicator of questions answered on the left of each section, e.g. Out of 6 questions 4-5-or all 6 answered you will soon realise however you try to complete every answer this doesn’t add up , a bit more work is needed I believe ,
Despite the bugs it is a way of registering your opinion not perfect but it might just influence those who could make changes .
@Kangaroo
Scotland`s greatest gift to Australia,
link to youtube.com
Getting independence could be the easy bit. Changing the consciousness and mind-set of our citizens to handle the new order may not be so easy. 300 + years of a self-harming very bad habit may need strong psychological initiatives. The lure of old habits and addictions to the way it used to be will be exploited by the shady dealers in ‘Brits’, the dependency drug that takes the existential discomforts of self-reliance away, for a fat fee.
When we break with the old order, the break must be clean not complex.
Imperialist history indicates we must be on our guard when treating this particular subject.
O/T dont know if this has been posted before, the real reason the Tories want a hard brexit. Never minds hundreds of thousand of job losses in the UK , lets keep our chums sweet.
link to thejist.co.uk
Galam
Having for years predicted her annointed status as queen of the cabal of evil as based on the many political errors she inexplicably survived, long before becoming Tory leader, I have always considered May’s ‘remain’ stance to be entirely fake and merely a propaganda ruse.
Chick, totally agree.
Three near certainties-
1. Theresa May was never a remainer.
2. Brexit will be of the hardest kind.
3. Jacob Rees-Mogg will be the next PM.
If this comes to pass the uk economy will lose majority of its tax income.
link to linkedin.com
Unlike Scotland, UK (Englands) economy is dependant upon services of that a large portion is financial services.
link to ft.com
The banking sector alone gave tax of £24 billion in 2015-16 tax year.
link to researchbriefings.parliament.uk
Leaving the uk is essential for the economic status quo in Scotland.
The brexit mess will wreck the uk economy, destroying its tax base. we have a life raft and need to deploy it before March 29th 2019.
I remember many years ago the great oil billionaire hunt sitting in the kremlin talking to Mr Breznev the soviet leader at that time.
Which goes to prove that whatever governments do or say, business allways carries on as usual.
Mr Hunt did not care about the politics of everything, he like the american president now was more interested in taking care of business.
After brexit, whatever anyone says, business will just carry on as usual, cause every business person knows, the markets do not belong to anybody, the markets are there to be traded whether its forex or selling cars, its just business
Wonder why Colin Alexander or Colin Alexander or COLIN ALEXANDER hasn’t been on to comment?? Must be on leave.
Chick McGregor says:
Her behaviour during the 2017 GE was nothing short of astonishing. She appeared not to be even trying. Yet, there she still is.
@ Scott Finlayson 10.42am
That AC/DC video is a keeper.
I´m fed up explaining to people the they were Scottish.
Stravaiger says:
… which will give rise to a fourth near certainty 😉
‘Brexit of the hardest kind’ and ‘Jacob Rees-Mogg as PM’ would a dream ticket for IndyRef2.
James Caithness @ 11.47
No Captain Colin Alexander on this forum, no Governor General Mundell in the MSM. Am I drawing the wrong conclusion ?
ScotsRenewables says:
11 February, 2018 at 9:49 am
Graeme says:
11 February, 2018 at 7:23 am
It’s maybe worth remembering that if the franchise in 2014 was limited to those resident and born in Scotland, we’d be independent by now.
“Aye, and if the franchise had been extended to expat Scots the defeat for YES would undoubtedly have been a lot larger.
The franchise is what it is, we need to put our efforts into something more productive than looking for someone to blame.”
I’m not suggesting we give a vote to expats and I’m not trying to blame anyone But I find it a a bit strange that we give a vote to the very people we’re trying to break away from ie non Scot UK nationals.
I think it can fairly be argued that these people uniquely of all other nationalities have a vested interest in Scotland remaining in the union that is not based in the best interests of Scotland or it’s people.
I accept there is nothing we can do about it and we have to go along with it but that doesn’t make it right or fair.
If I moved to any other part of the world I would still consider myself a Scotsman first and foremost and if asked to vote for something I thought was a good thing for my adopted country but detrimental to Scotland I would choose the latter without question.
Would that be fair to my adopted country and it’s people
Shuan
Agree, England’s resource to population ratio is dire. It falls short on all sectors, food and drink, energy, timber, it is very far from a position of security.
The worst security position in the World for a large non-satellite economy.
And, instead of filling that resource security gap by generating a manufacturing based trade surplus, i.e. something which at least could survive a significant degree of World turmoil, it has put all its eggs in the financial services basket, many of which are rotten. Money laundering, tax evasion, interest manipulation, Ponzi scams. And all of which could and almost certainly will, disappear like snaw aff a dyke.
The consequences of post hard brexit does not bear thinking about.
A campaign must seek the open support of a majority of European Countrys, and while we are at it, the support worldwide of ex Colonies. Would they want to trade with a country who have used dirty tricks to prevent Independence for the Scottish People?
Another thought. Mhairi Black must have a strong part in the campaign as a strong speaker, with the ear of the young voters and urge them to seek the support of their Grand PaRents.
Something to remember about Indy, Brexit, and voters….
The UK result in EuRef was 52% to leave the union in question.
It would have been more like 45% if it had been run on a wide IndyRef1 type franchise.
The result in IndyRef1 was 45% to leave the union in question.
It would have been more like 52% if it had been run on a narrow EURef type franchise.
The more I think about referendums, the more I am inclined to say that ALL decisions should be taken by elected representatives in a PR elected parliament based on manifesto commitments.
Get the electoral role right and police it robustly. Tighten up postal voting. Then let normal parliamentary process decide all issues. That is rapidly becoming my position!
@ Scott Finlayson
O/T………….
Robert Graham @ 10:25,
(It was me actually, and several times since the start of the year, but I’m nae proud.)
Just go and do it, folks, if you care.
My own view is that there is a fundamental principle that applies besides reverse “no taxation without representation” (In fact that weel-kent slogan is just one specific corollary of it.)
It’s the well-understood principle that you must be subject to the consequences of the votes that you cast. For fairly obvious reasons.
This essentially translates into residence (with some obvious exceptions) and taxation.
It doesn’t mean that you’re not Scottish if you happen to currently live in the diaspora. Of course not. So very many have left, which is a large part of our problem. But you can contribute to our cause in important other ways, like influencing people in your own country to what’s actually happpening here, and also by funding.
And of both there is a great need.
@Dave McEwan Hill:
Graf Midgehunter wasn’t doing the blame game, he was effectively saying can we stop the blame game.
@Liz Rannoch
She didn’t do too badly though, at least they thought she was RN material! And she got to try to relocate the Britannia Royal Naval College to Glasogow, quite right too.
Yes, some (many) of the defence posters hate the SNP, but most of them hate all politicians who don’t set a defence budget of 10% of GDP, build about 200 warships, 20 submarines, have 200,000 soldiers, and about 1,000 fighter jets and bombers. In fact, basically everyone in the UK should be in the forces I guess.
Having been in Australia a few times I can assure you the ex-pat Scots think we are doing fine and wonder why we want to break away, the longer they have been away from Scotland the more British they become. Forget about ex=pats vote, they have left Scotland and are in no hurry to come home and don’t believe change would be a good thing.
Lenny Hartley @ 11:09,
I’m with you on this one, Lenny.
There’s a lot of poor suckers in the UK, including alas too many in Scotland, who have been fooled into believing that “take back control” is somehow going to happen for them.
Nope, nope, nope.
It’s going to happen for Jacob Rees-Mogg and his pals. Rich tax-avoiders and vulture capitalists who are positively lusting to buy up all the Brexit crashed assets cheap.
Yet we still get people like our now-resident Iago whispering that the EU is a “rich man’s club”.
Powers returning to Scotland: Herald Story from yesterday:
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.de
PS:
Paul Sweeney (‘Scottish’ Labour)MP joins woman in protesting for equal pay in Glasgow!
What’s he like eh? 🙁
Extending the right to vote in Indyref2 to ex-pat Scots would be a disaster for the Independence Campaign.
For those in England apart from the well known tendency when abroad to Go Native one must remember that if they don’t subscribe to The National, SH or read sites like WoS they are wholly dependent on the metropolitan broadcast and print media for any information regarding Scottish Politics and we all know what sort of ‘Information’ thais.
For those living elsewhere abroad the situation will be similar although probably a bit more favourable towards Indpendence but still likely to be predominantly anti.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
“It doesn’t mean that you’re not Scottish if you happen to currently live in the diaspora. Of course not. So very many have left, which is a large part of our problem. But you can contribute to our cause in important other ways, like influencing people in your own country to what’s actually happpening here, and also by funding.
And of both there is a great need.”
—- —– —– —–
That’s exactly how I contribute to both your suggestions.
Cash to various causes like WOS, WGD, books etc. Am an SNP member – group EUROPE – but I never know where the monthly meetings are, Copenhagen, Berlin, Lyon, Milan..! 😉
Writing mails to various publications or TV debates.
In 2014 it was folk asking me why Scotland wants to “break away” from England (sigh..). Now I just ask them, you’ve seen the chaotic Brexit malarky from London which is driving the EU and Barnier bonkers – can you now understand why we want to be away from the clutches of London and be independent again..??
100% conversion rate. 🙂
@ScotsRenewables says: 11 February, 2018 at 9:49 am:
“Aye, and if the franchise had been extended to expat Scots the defeat for YES would undoubtedly have been a lot larger.
The franchise is what it is, we need to put our efforts into something more productive than looking for someone to blame.”
Hey! Firstly. I’m not the one making wild guesses of how things would have gone if only …
In the second place I’m the one defending those the guessers would blame for the defeat of the YES referendum.
The truth being that there is only one lot to blame for the defeat of the YES to independence movement.
These are the liars, prevaricators and bullies who are the long term oppressors of everything and anything that is Scottish. a.k.a. the Westminster Establishment – also known the wide World over as PERFIDIOUS ALBION. .
By which terms I do not class the normally decent. and much like ourselves, people of the three country Kingdom of England. It is reserved exclusively for the Westminster Establishment and that extends a damned sight further than just the Palace of Westminster, the financial sector and Buck House.
TheWasp says:
11 February, 2018 at 11:58 am
James Caithness @ 11.47
No Captain Colin Alexander on this forum, no Governor General Mundell in the MSM. Am I drawing the wrong conclusion ?
Fluffie’s apparently the spaceman driving that Tesla car what they fired into to space last week.
This is Major Fluffie to ground controoooool, I’m feeling very toryboy, I’m wishing they’d sent Colonel Ruth asweeeeeeeell, because the Colonel’s an even bigger tory chancer than meeeeeee, at least we can still receive all the amazing BBC SNP out propaganda, in deep toryboy spaaaaaaaace…
Bowie lyrics write themselves:D
Well spotted- call me Dave- The brass necked labour MP joining a protest for equal pay in Glasgow
He only has to look at the City Chambers and the previous administration who used to inhabit the place, for any answers on that little embarrassment , a labour controlled council who spent millions yes millions of pounds in legal services fighting the very people he now joins in protest ,
I was going to say you couldn’t make it up , but honestly ,Dont the people who are protesting not realise it was this arsewipe of an MPs party that is the root of their problem .
The money wasted could have given every one of them enough to retire on , I wonder if the wasted money could be recovered from these idiots who wasted it , maybe as the pension fund accrued by the city council and believed to be one of the largest in Britain not just Scotland but Britain , perhaps they should shoulder some of the cost , after all it’s the broad shoulders and shared responsibility that makes the Union great eh .
Every time a bell rings another Yesser gets their Wings over Scotland Badge.
Has not someone somewhere said something like that somewhere before?
Now I wonder who and where that was?
Graeme says:
11 February, 2018 at 11:59 am
I think it can fairly be argued that these people uniquely of all other nationalities have a vested interest in Scotland remaining in the union that is not based in the best interests of Scotland or it’s people.
I disagree. Those who have been born here have no choice, those who choose to make Scotland their home are making a positive statement. I don’t understand why they then automatically have a vested interest in maintaining the Union.
They have already made one leap of faith by moving, now we need them to make one more.
“Every time a bell rings another Yesser gets their Wings over Scotland Badge.
Now I wonder who and where that was?”
To keep the Scots and bells theme running:
link to youtube.com
🙂 🙂
Radio shortbread had a wee discussion on Scotland and the space industry this morning. Good to hear what we all knew on Wings.
Prestwick, rocket launches and satellite manufacture all going along nicely. Chuckled to myself as I expected the presenter to nip the enthusiasm expressed in the bud.
Westminster will get around to poking a spanner in the works soon enough. 🙁
PS: We all know but for those that wonder.
Bells and Angels wings. Have had the coloured rendered dvd version for a long time now. Go back to it often.
The George Bailey child – Zuzu
Karolyn Grimes.
Alas she had a hard time after her role in ‘It’s a wonderful life’
Noticed our brass necked Labour MP in George Square’s T shirt did not display any Labour Party logo’s
@Liz Rannoch – OT – Defence
Looking around defence forums, particularly the one, because of the constant threat to cut the defence budget, warships etc., there are people who want to cut the International Aid budget and spend it on defence instead. And who pops out of the woodwork with the same desire? Rees-Mogg, the arch-Brexiteer.
But Aid is soft power, and with Brexit the UK is going to need that more than before, something Rees-Mogg as a likely future PM should know. So that could be an additional effect of Brexit for all of us, loss of that soft power and a resultant cut to GDP.
There is an answer to this though, and that’s to “charge” the international aid budget for aid-related use of defence assets. For example Invincible was used in the Philipines, and Ocean and RFA Mounts Bay in the Caribbean. And if this was built in, literally, to assets, there could be a shared use of budget from the beginning. The QE carriers for instance produce 100,000 litres of fresh water each by reverse osmosis from seawater.
The significance for us when Independent is to thing laterally from the very beginning, and as part of the target of 0.7% or 1% of GDP for International Aid, spend part with the defence budget in the design phase, so we get better defence, and can better take part in humanitarian missions, true value for money.
everyone of us who objects to Paul Sweeney turning up at the Rally yesterday should e-mail him and let him know how we feel about him and labour. Paul.sweeney.mp@parliament.uk Labour must think we all button up the back – they have no scruples or moral code left and in no way represent any one of us.
It is the impact of their past deeds that are going to haunt them and until every last penny of PFI interest is paid off and labour have apologised for their selling Scotland down the river they should be in hiding with shame.Even their great messiah JC has left his scruples behind at the first test Trident and no party whip as for Brexit he has no idea and would be happy to follow the tories over the cliff.
re voters right for our next vote for independence.
Criteria will have to be as before- There is a precedent after all but I do think that at a local level we need to get even more folk voting that still didn’t bother 4 years ago. Thankfully many younger folk who were on 12-13 at the time will vote for independence as they don’t have the fears and gripes of many of their great/grand parents.
The universities who actively encouraged their student population from England Wales and NI to vote NO should be prohibited as the majority had no intention to stay in Scotland.
@Davie Oga says: 11 February, 2018 at A9:19 am:
“In the EU only Ireland, Cyprus, Denmark, and Malta disenfranchise their citizens who are resident outside their national country”
Only one little problem with that spurious claim, Davie Oga – neither does the United Kingdom disenfranchise those who reside outside their national country as part of their job. They only lose the right to vote if their permanent address is abroad and they pay their tax to the foreign country.
There is a great difference between working temporarily in a foreign state and being a permanent resident in that foreign state. As a working life employee of the UK MOD I never missed a vote no matter where I was at any given time because my main permanent address was in the UK and my income taxed by HM Treasury.
My permanent home address was always in Scotland and I was paid by the MOD and taxed as being a Scottish Resident.
The present Westminster proposal is for people like my own sister who emigrated to Australia in 1962 and has never returned to Scotland since then. She and her family, (excepting her second husband who she married after parting with her Scottish born first husband), are Scottish born. She is thus a Scot who is one of the people of Australia.
Westminster are proposing that if you have a Scottish Granny five times removed you should have a vote in a Scottish independence referendum. This is not just Scots temporarily working abroad for UK companies or Scots on contract to foreign companies and who pay their tax to the UK.
There are some deperate to have a vote so they can vote FOR a proposition and those desperate to have the vote so they can vote AGAINST that same proposition:
In the case of Scottish Independence fear is the driving issue, to win or not to win by excluding those who would prevent that win by finding an acceptable way to do it, or from the other perspective prevent that win at all costs by demanding equal status
To get a vote or not to get a vote that is the question
whether tis nobler in the mind to think you might be entitled to one or be excluded from recieving such an honourable right isnae gonnae be our decision anyway
Such decisions are thankfully removed from our sphere of influence and are in the gift of those we elected for the mission of representing us
Some will be dissapointed some will issue sighs of relief and some will have had their hopes realised, but whatever the outcome, pissing on each others legs on this forum matters not a whit
It’s not a matter for us unless those who feel disenfranchised take it up with their aforementioned elected representatives and if unsatisfied with their answers take their leave in peace and or support another party who you feel more represents your particular political desires, or march up and down in protest for your cause and hope to attract others to it
The franchise as it stands at this moment is if you live and work in Scotland the vote is yours by right
No ifs no buts that’s it
There is one caveat to this however, at the moment the Tories are attempting to remove the legal rights of EU migrants in Scotland to vote even though they pay tax work and live here
On any level this is wrong and must be opposed as we are still in the EU, but once we’re out the argument over who votes or not would have to be revisited, so one would hope that the timing of Indyref2 will be completed before that decision is taken rendering it meaningless in an Independent Scotland where the voting franchise would be as it is now
starlaw says:
Or, could it be that they left at a time when there was more ‘British’ feeling about in general?
It’s almost hard to remember now that there was a time when there were so many symbols of a united Kingom … British Rail, British Steel, The GPO, British Gas, NCB etc etc.. Two station TV. Roads full of British built cars. NHS and transport free of private sub contractors.
Many ex-pats who left for Australia at the peak in emigration, for instance, left a totally different UK.
And, they left a Scottish political system with no sgnificant SNP presence and a country which certainly wasn’t split 50:50 for independence, and 2:1 for the EU!
The Britain and Britishness many have in their minds must be heavily influenced by one from their departure time. The longer they’ve been away, the more historical their attitudes. Perhaps?
hAnother view from Ireland:
ttps://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/962637737139449857
o/t a bit
Anyone notice a wee head of steam building up against the EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier , the Tory media are trying to cause a rift in the EU delegation by singling him out for personal attacks , Has he went to far ? , is he at odds with the rest of the EU negotiators ? , typical British methods of divide and rule, the tried and tested way of making a problem go away, this lot profess to being intelligent but really they are actually all so bloody predictable .
Dan yer links ain’t linking
Would you credit it. Had sub titles on for National Anthems at BBC Scotland V France rugby and the line “And be a Nation again” was omitted. I wonder why?
Another disastrous start.
@Robert Graham 2:52pm
Sorry, Robert. IMaybe because I misplaced the wee h from the link?
link to twitter.com
7-10 TFFT
Remember with ‘expats’
Most get their news and as a result view of Scotland via the MSM and in particular the BritNat Broadcasting Corporation.
A chunk of electoral expatery belongs to the ‘proud Scot’ brigade. Tartan shortbread tin ‘Scots’, stuck in Balmorality and weaned on the authorized Unionist scripture. When it comes to politics, I never trust a guy in a kilt: a garment whose history is totemic of ethnic repression. If only the wearers had the nous to grasp the cultural incongruity.
expats!
Someone please explain why a “Brit” abroad likes to be warmly known as an “expat” whereas someone coming to live the toilet that is the UK is an economic migrant/immigrant?
It could be the “Rule Shitannia” mentality rearing its inbred head I suppose, just look at Beneedom or the Kostadelboysol, innit.
Thanks Dan link fixed , no apoliges needed , I have a cheek , never having posted a link myself , I usually call on nana and others to do the technical bit , thanks for your perseverance good to get information out with our msm at least you are likely to get a balanced truthful opinion .
Was proof of residency in Scotland required to vote in Indyref 1 ? If so, what kind of proof?
@Sinky
A variant of the tune to ‘Scots wha hae’ is used by the French army under the name ‘La marche des soldats de Robert Bruce’. There are versions on youtube. Would make a better ‘anthem’ than the hackneyed ‘Flower of Scotland’.
I suggest everyone have a look a the link Dan Huil posted , the total inability of one of the contributors to grasp exactly what is at stake with jolly old engurland pising about with the border sums up the approach they have to everything , oh just do as your told , and folk here want still be a part of this dysfunctional bloody Circus , Totally mind boggling and bonkers in the extreme .
Expats can never admit that the country they left is as good (if not better) than the country they have moved to. To admit this would be admitting they have made a mistake moving to their new country.
@silverbuick
You were required to be registered on the electoral roll.
Most get their news and as a result view of Scotland via the MSM and in particular the BritNat Broadcasting Corporation.
We used to read The Graun in America. Look at how its stinks like toryboy doodoo now.
No.1 online stinky olde The Graun read today?
link to archive.is
Kim Cattrall
‘You are not my friend’: Kim Cattrall lashes out at Sarah Jessica Parker after brother’s death
Acrimony between Sex and the City co-stars surfaces, with Cattrall claiming her former colleague was ‘cruel’
Guardian Staff
Sun 11 Feb 2018 01.47 GMT Last modified on Sun 11 Feb 2018 13.42 GMT
And then check The Graun’s tory troll in chief’s Scotland choice for his Scotland region weekend,
link to archive.is
Imagine a broadsheet newsroom actually paying for this garbage, as Sevy the Graun troll plonks it in his Scotland region section.
So expats, please don’t bother telling Scotland what you want our destiny to be, you really wont a fcuking scooby.
So expats, please don’t bother telling Scotland what you want our destiny to be, you really wont HAVE a fcuking scooby.
Whoops:D
Thanks Macart, that,s what I thought. So what’s needed to get on the electoral roll? It’s been a while.
I’d noticed the guardian becoming increasingly US centric of late. They’re just preparing England’s population for the final nail in their Brexit coffin: Meet The Donald, your new comander and chief of trade.
I agree
Flower of Scotland has lost it’s meaning. The NO Voters seen to that.
It make you cringe with embarrassment every time it is sung.
Another National Anthem should be chosen after we win our Independence.
O/T just thought I’d pop this in for the benefit of anyone who hasn’t heard about it and might be interested.
From last Friday’s National
Yes Workshop being held Saturday 24th February 9- 5pm
The Waterside Social Club, 26 Inglis Green Road Edinburgh EH14 2ER
Hosted by Yes2Edinburgh & Lothian Indy groups
Will focus on –
Media Relations & PR
Campaign Strategy
Audience Engagement
Geographical Strategy Alignment
Tea/coffee etc.
yespentlands@gmail.com
Indy2 says:
11 February, 2018 at 4:10 pm
I agree
Flower of Scotland has lost it’s meaning. The NO Voters seen to that.
It make you cringe with embarrassment every time it is sung.
It makes you cringe indy2 because you’re just another phony, not a great one but you make a change from dingalings like Colin A.
Flower of Scotland or God save the queen?
Yay, my nerves are wracked.
Way o/t however no apologies .
I just caught up with a old Indy live clip with Craig Murray where he gives his version of events regarding his unsuccessful attempt to be a candidate for the SNP in 2015 , its uncanny how observant and how close his predictions were of events even to leaving the EU ,
His observations on his failure to be selected seem to be down to the selection process where he was labelled as a loose cannon and a free thinker and not able to be controlled by the party whip at Westminster ,
Well this a loss to the SNP at Westminster I believe , he touched on the professional political class that was gaining traction, a simple analogy was he was in conversation with a SNP representative who observed he was the only one at a recent meeting that wasn’t wearing a suit a definite change that just happened ,
He made it clear it wasn’t his wish details of his regection be made public , and could only have come from within , a little disappointed after viewing this clip .
I am not posting this as criticism just an observation now that the Deput Leadership contest is starting , I had hoped Tommy Sheppard been successful in the last vote.
yesindyref2 says:
Aye, a sair fecht, and a ways to go yit!
I went grey over IndyRef1 …. seriously!
nice win against France.
As for Flower of Scotland indy2 you are talking mince. We cans till rise now and be a nation again.
Had the pleasure of hearing The Corrie’s live performing Flower Of Scotland. It’s a touching ballad and so much better than the modern version it has morphed into.
Not a pretty game today but points make prizes. Scotland kept the heid and deserved a win.
heedtracker @ 16:41,
Oh, here we go – another discussion on the national anthem now.
One teensy box to check first, peeps!
(But personally the last thing I want is one that is all about fighting another country, and was never intended as a national anthem anyway. We can do better than that. So there. Meh!)
(But personally the last thing I want is one that is all about fighting another country, and was never intended as a national anthem anyway. We can do better than that. So there. Meh!)
You really think ending this 300+ year union’s a disney movie Robert?
They promised us devo max, EU citizenship, partnership of equals, a fed UK zone. All of its bullshit and that’s just the last 3 years.
As the teamGB msm carefully airbrush Scots and Scotland out of Brexit UK.
Stand against them, one more time.
“Expats can never admit that the country they left is as good (if not better) than the country they have moved to. To admit this would be admitting they have made a mistake moving to their new country.”
“So expats, please don’t bother telling Scotland what you want our destiny to be, you really wont HAVE a fcuking scooby.”
—————
This reminds me of the scape-goating of the pensioners for having lost Indy-1 whilst comfortably forgetting the many, many pensioners who worked their arses off to get a YES vote. No differation whatsoever.
You won’t find the word “Expat” in my posts – ..a Scot abroad.. / ..a Scot living in ???… sure.
I don’t see you calling AC/DC and family “Expats”, in fact you’re very quick to cuddle them to your bosom. Angus has a house in the Netherlands btw. In Scotland…?
Just because you’ve had some negative experiences with some “foreign” Scots doesn’t mean everyone is the same, chuck your f***** comb away.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
I know what you mean, “Rebellious Scots to crush”, sort of thing 🙂
Also, there’s a difference between the type of song folks sing when they are fighting for freedom, as opposed to the time when they are independent.
The Catalan anthem strikes me this way. A great rousing song and tune. Els Segadors , The Reapers. It has a somewhat aggressive tone …
Strike with your sickle, defenders of the land!
Strike with your sickle!
Now is the time, reapers.
… I find it difficult to believe they will keep those words when independent and a peaceful European nation.
It certainly gets a crowd singing …
link to youtube.com
As for Scotland, I have always thought Freedom Come all Ye appropriate …. tunes, words, and (your) anti war sentiments …
link to youtube.com
But as you say, we have to get there first!
@silverbuick
In England and Wales you can register to vote if you are 17 years old (and in some cases if you are 16). However, you can only vote when you become 18. In Scotland you can register to vote if you are 15 years old (and in some cases if you are 14). You can vote in local elections and elections to the Scottish Parliament when you are 16 and elections to the UK and European Parliaments when you are 18.
British, Irish or qualifying Commonwealth citizens. This means Commonwealth citizens who have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland or other European Union (EU) member states.’
link to electoralcommission.org.uk
The franchise for SE, GE and referendum can vary of course. For example: 16 and 17 yr old can vote in Scotland for SE and referendums, but essentially the criteria above.
Scotland’s national anthem should be freedom come a ye, or something else in Scots. What a statement to the world. A helluva song.
An article from today’s Sunday Herald entitled ‘Westminster must pay (Brexicide) border costs.”
‘Westminster must pay for any checkpoints at Scottish ports if Northern Ireland is kept in the Customs Union, campaigners have said.
Officials from Britain and the EU want to effectively keep Northern Ireland in the trading bloc after Brexit in order to avoid a hard border across the island of Ireland. However Green MSP Ross Greer warned that ports such as Cairnryan, and potentially Ardrossan, would become customs borders – and the UK government must pick up the tab for any ensuing infrastructure costs.
He said that, if as was likely that Northern Ireland would be staying in the Customs Union the consequences of that for Scotland would be “massive”.
Greer added: “Given that not one of our Councils along the West Coast, or Scotland as a whole, voted for Brexit or to leave the Customs Union, neither they nor the Scottish Government should be forced to fork out what will be significant sums of money in a short space of time to make these changes. Every penny should come from the Westminster Government that’s dragging us into this mess.
Greer said that Brexit Secretary David Davis and Scottish Secretary David Mundell should commit to paying for any Brexit costs.
A UK Government spokeswoman said: “The whole of the UK will be leaving the EU’s Customs Union. By leaving the Customs Union and establishing a new customs arrangement with the EU we will be able to forge new trade relationships with our partners around the world, and maintain as frictionless trade as possible in goods between the UK and EU. “The UK is committed to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.”
@Dr Jim says: 11 February, 2018 at 2:28 pm:
“to one or be excluded from recieving such an honourable right isnae gonnae be our decision anyway
Such decisions are thankfully removed from our sphere of influence and are in the gift of those we elected for the mission of representing us”
You usually get most things right, Dr, Jim but with that conclusion you are in fact wrong. If the Winger is also a card carrying member of the SNP then that person has the same number of votes in forming SNP party policies as has Nicola Sturgeon. Mind you the card carrying member of the SNP must actively use that one vote. However, that same member can exercise their right at a branch meeting to propose a new SNP policy or propose an amendment to an existing policy. If either proposal gets seconded at branch level and if no one at branch objects and is seconded then that proposal goes forward and will eventually get debated and voted upon by the delegates sent by branches to national conference.
It is thus not a waste of time for political matters to be debated here on Wings, (or anywhere else for that matter)/ The point is that SNP policies are from the bottom up and every other party has that arse for elbow with the likes of Theresa May dictating policy to the grass roots.
I’ve no idea how many Wingers are also SNP party members but there seems to be more than a few. Furthermore I don’t know how many Winger SNP members are also active at an SNP branch meeting but I’m sure there will be some degree of cross-fertilisation between Wings and the SNP.
Petra says:
How long are they going to maintain this fantasy? The EU must be wondering that too, how long?
There is no scenario where the EU will agree to “frictionless trade” with EU, and “new trade relationships” with countries which the EU does not currently have trade agreements. It is completely impossible.
So TMay is imminently to give some clarity to what she wants. Has she found a compromise to satisfy the ‘out means out’ Brexitears and the ‘let’s stay close’ Softies?
No, because there is none. The positions are just too far apart.
It’s ‘Canada’ or ‘Norway’, either with minor tweeks. Or crash with nothing. So basically, she has to tell one half of her cabinet to get stuffed, and chose the off the peg option closest to the other. Also, the continuation of her Union is at stake, that should play heavily on her decision.
So, who is this drawn out charade for?
@call me dave says: 11 February, 2018 at 1:45 pm:
“PS: We all know but for those that wonder.
Bells and Angels wings. Have had the coloured rendered dvd version for a long time now. Go back to it often.
The George Bailey child – Zuzu
Karolyn Grimes.
Alas she had a hard time after her role in ‘It’s a wonderful life’”
It was in fact a rhetorical question, Call me Dave, like watching TV I’ve more or less given up on cinema.
Too much special effects and an almost total absence of actual acting. Most so called actors these days play only one character – themselves – all that changes are the costumes and the make-up.
@Heedtracker –
Just thought you’d like to know that Morrison’s Stevenston has started packaging the doughnuts in cardboard trays with saltires at each end rather than UJs. First time I’ve noticed them doing it, in that store anyway.
A good opinion piece from Polly Toynbee.
She even says … ” Maybe the Brexiteers are destructive enough to accept an end to the UK as a price worth paying? “ .. I doubt that! But we can live in hope!
link to archive.is
I see Penny Mordaunt? who I here you ask–(Govt minister for redevelopment in the 3rd world) is warning charities that the tory government cannot work with them if they do not have a moral compass!! she didn’t even smirk– she works with Boris Johnston, Gove, Davies and all the creepy hands on tories.
I think her compass is doing 360′ in the wrong direction
Ian Brotherhood says:
11 February, 2018 at 7:03 pm
@Heedtracker –
Just thought you’d like to know that Morrison’s Stevenston has started packaging the doughnuts in cardboard trays with saltires at each end rather than UJs. First time I’ve noticed them doing it, in that store anyway.”
Alright! Salted caramel, No.1
Morrison’s I badgered them about their union jack doughnut boxes is also Bliar McDougall’s local too. But despite, that its a really nice one with lovely staff.
When they come to write the historic story of Scotland regaining nation statehood, Morrison’s ditching their union jack doughnut boxes will have its own chapter:D
Hold the front page.
Boris Wuckfit is getting meedja coverage for his new channel crossing.
No doubt Scotland will pay for the whole embarrassing escapade whilst getting royally FKD yet again.
“You’ve had your gruel now get back in your Celtic inbred caves.”
Watch out for the further rise of the new messiah Corbyn trouser press, taking back water into public ownership, although this doesn’t include Jockostan the meedja will no doubt blinker the truth to the thickos.
“Vote for the red rosette on the joby suckers.”
Just like “the good ole days” innit.
Hamish100 @ 19:13,
Pedants corner: 360º (presuming you didn’t mean arc-minutes, as wrote) is right round the compass, whereas a complete turnabout is 180º.
WoS is nothing if not accurate! =grin=
On further thought, you may be more right than I first gave you credit. The Tories do seem to be all round the compass over Brexit!
(Whereas Labour don’t seem to have a compass at all!)
Robert Louis @5:48 pm
You write: “Scotland’s national anthem should be freedom come a ye, or something else in Scots. What a statement to the world. A helluva song.”
Our national anthem, and our flag, are not the most important things right now in my mind concerning Scotland’s status in the world! However, since you raise it, I agree – it may need a bit of either ‘adjustment’ of the language or, better still, a bit more public education regarding the Scots leid.
Our present sporting anthem is a grand song but I no longer want an anthem that defines Scotland, our values and aspirations for our place in the world, by reference to our relationship with England. This is far, far too limiting and backward looking. Lets prepare to move on from all that.
The sentiments of Hamish Henderson’s anti-imperialist “The Freedom Come All Ye” fit perfectly with the kind of internationalist, progressive, inclusive independent Scottish state that I hope to see before too long. (link to scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk )
Here’s a thought, with the SNP depute leader campaign to start soon, and mostly MPs expected to be candidates – and favourites.
Why should anyone care which SNP MP candidate wins, if all they’re going to talk about is how to reform the SNP to get more MPs elected to Westminster in 2022 and beyond, yea, even until 3 or 4 generations yet unborn?
@Robert Peffers
Long time member Robert, my point was a general one meaning the franchise is set as is at the moment unless the topic comes up again for discussion which at the moment the status quo would be our parties position but if one of the English parties were in office in Scotland who knows what they’d do
I just didn’t go into the detail regarding any alteration to policy in this parliament, because that’s not really likely given our previous mandate for such things is based on a precedent our party already has so to change it at this stage wouldn’t be something the SNP would be keen to do as I said unless the UK parliament attempted throw in a curve ball at the last minute like banning EU citizens from the vote then I could foresee a clamour for change by quite a few, and I think rightly so
@yesindyref2 8.26pm
Because although we plan to win the referendum we have to prepare for the future if God forbid we don’t win
Although that doesn’t bear thinking about for such as me
Labour politicians joining women in George Square to give support to their equal pay campaign. This the the issue which Labour spent time and money trying to avoid settling.
The hypocrisy is astonishing.
However, one important observation. Why aren’t the women protestors telling these Labour goons to ‘depart in a fornicating manner’?
What this tells me is that ordinary folks, even those closely involved, don’t actually appreciate Labour’s historical part in all this. That is worrying!
O/T
Many here like me may regularly visit Craig Murray’s online blog and will have read his latest thoughtful writing on the state of illiberal UK, its plans for social media regulation and the prospects for Scotland becoming independent – getting out of all this – given his view of present SNP strategy.
But if you don’t usually follow Craig’s writing, I strongly recommend taking time out to read this: link to craigmurray.org.uk . Thought provoking!
yesindyref2 @ 20:26,
My thought also. If we have to endure – perish the thought! – another election to the House of Fools, what difference will it likely make? Once again the SNP contingent will be routinely mocked and traduced by the denizens of that place, and will be largely ignored by the media as somehow not really there, even if they do remain the third largest party in the place, and by far the most substantial representation of Scotland.
The chances of an SNP presence in a “hung” WM where they could have a real political effect are not zero, but close enough to it to make no difference. Remember the “SNP tail wagging the dog” stuff that so upset poor Miliband?
Even when the SNP hit their highwater mark after the 2015 UKGE, what significant effect did all those stalwart defenders of Scotland achieve? (Apart of course for the excellent service most gave to their constituents, that is.) Through absolutely no fault of their own.
One gets the definite suspicion that the WM contingent in particular have become far too concerned about their position after an election which was the SNP versus the Unionist Party, the latter getting 3x the exposure of our band of heroes in an FPTP election?
After fighting an election on the softly-softly basis that we didn’t want to scare the horses by mentioning that difficult word beginning with i~ despite Ruthie and her mee-too pals shouting it loudly all over the place?
Instead, I suggest it’s high time that these stalwart sojourners leave off fruitless navel-gazing and instead prepare seriously for comin’ hame.
stewartb says:
11 February, 2018 at 8:53 pm
O/T
Sounds like he’s on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
Crippling timidity of indy by SNP, is an odd thing to say, after 2014.
We live on planet toryboy, we can either accept this fact of life or go mad.
Look at massed of ranks of beeb gimps today, all battering away at us, SNP out.
But what’s new, last gen beeb gimps got Snatcher Thatcher in, they destroyed the miners and Scargill, they brainwashed enough saps into royals arse licking, like a real toryboy, they only allowed the farce that was New Labour simply because they’re red tory. They destroyed indyref1, they took out Salmond, eventually and they probably will get the SNP out, next time.
Why, because this is planet toryboy, BetterTogether with their BBC gimp led msm, endlessly fighting to make us vote completely against our own interests. They’d rather we just never voted at all, and look at how many are happy to do that, never vote. Oh look, there’s been a murder, smirks Jacky Bird.
Instead of using some kind of logical approach to Brexit negotiations, the Tories have decided to represent themselves.
@Dr Jim
Yes, you’re right, they would be needed as a backstop, the expeditionary force, the border reivers, the fifth column even!
@RJS
As Dr Jim says I guess, reluctantly, to ignore or give up the SNP MPs at Westminster would put all our eggs in one basket. Indy Ref 2 could be postponed if Brexit didn’t happen, which is still a possibility. Ot it could be a NO, and the whole thing have to start off all over again for a third time lucky.
Bella had a poll which had Sheppard way out in front. He’s fine except he’s well off to the left from being ex-labour, which is fine for RISE and SSP, Sheridan and even the Greens, but not for the centre or right. That’s what worries me. Wishart on the other hand wanted to leave Indy Ref 2 to 2022 if I remember correctly. Most of the other possibilities are MPs, only one MSP so far plus perhaps McKee.
Since I didn’t renew the SNP in September it is working as hoped, I’m thinking non-aligned again. But that also means going back to before joining the SNP after the Ref, where we all knew it wouldn’t all happen at all without the SNP.
Tricky one! But at least I don’t get a vote 🙂
Is this guy as rich a proud Scot but Ian Wood, who made his name lying for teamGB, 2014. Imagine a toryboy universe where wildly greedy toryboys like Ian actually funded democracy. Its mental for sure
link to archive.is
George Soros raises donation to anti-Brexit Best for Britain group
Investor pledges additional £100,000 in response to ‘smear campaign’ in rightwing press”
Still pales to not much, compared to the JK Trolling million for BetterTogether to end Scottish democracy dead.
But is making your billions flogging crappy knock off stories to the whole of western society’s kids, actually going to create anything more than a sneaky shit that can’t think of how spend it, other than monstering Scotland’s nascent democracy?
Dr Jim, I’ve always been of the opinion that we can have as many indyrefs as we want. Afterall, isn’t that what democracy is about. None of this shite about having a referendum once every billion years.
Heedy, you and Peffers try to rule Wings with a rod of iron. You are a couple of Trolls.
The two of you should get off your high horses and maybe people with more constructive views than you and Peffers might start joining the debates.
But until that time, the same couple of dozens posters will continue to be the only contributors.
And i stand by what I said earlier, AFTER Independence, we need a new National Anthem.
Your name should be Dick Heedy, not heedy.
Dr Jim, I’ve always been of the opinion that we can have as many indyrefs as we want. Afterall, isn’t that what democracy is about. None of shite about having a referendum once every billion years.
One for the diary:
Scottish independence campaigners to ‘peacefully’ occupy bridges across M8 motorway
Protesters from YesM8Scotland want to populate around 70 bridges with footpaths between Glasgow and Edinburgh.
link to glasgowlive.co.uk
All this talk that crept in about Indy Ref 2 not being till the next term of Ho*****d scares the sh*t out of me. The chances of a YES vote in spring 2019 or autumn 2-18 have got to be 50-50 to start with, and work up or down from there. But it’s the same odds – 50-50 – as getting a pro-Indy majority in 2021 at H******d. Which could mean Indy being off the agenda till 2026, and Indy Ref 2 not till 2028 at the earliest.
By then they’ll be violining in the haggis made from finest cuts of Herefordshire beef, to be served with carrots, green beans and tapioca. The address to the haggis will be “Oh Chieftain of the Hanover race”, it’ll be served with whiskey made in England with corn from the fields of Kent, and “a man’s a man for a’ that” will be “a Brit is a Brit don’t you know old chap”, they’ll have found Burns copied an older version which had Maggie galloping over the stones of Westminster Bridge, stovies will be made with the leftovers from the Herefordshire cattle, Tunnocks will have the union jack on them, the Scotsman will be renamed the North Brit, there’ll be no oil left anyway, all flights from Scotland will go via London, I could go on but I’ll have got my Irish passport lang syne and righty not be able to vote!
My apologies for the double post.
stewartb says:
” the SNP appears to have been seized by crippling timidity on the subject of Independence. There are worrying signs that Sturgeon’s evident lack of serious intent to push for Independence, is finally damping down grassroots activism, including on social media. “
I read that opinion here and there, including on WoS.
What we see could be interpreted like that, but for the moment I prefer to think that the SNP / SG have in fact got a plan to move on IndyRef2 at the right time. I can see that we need to wait for firm evidence that Brexit will be hard and damaging. That should come soon IMO.
I don’t believe in this “wait for 60% YES bullshite”. Polls won’t start moving until grassroots face to face campaigning takes off big time. And I see no point in starting when our case is weaker.
Ordinary folks are getting on with their lives. We political geeks see a situation which the vast majority of people don’t, yet.
I think the next few months will see the Tories showing their hands, so then we know where we stand.
New anthem – “Hermless” by Michael Marra. It’s a lovely gentle song – nothing militaristic, bombastic, nationalistic, or any other -ics.
yesindyref2 says:
Me too!
We have a mandate. We must use it.
As I said above, I think we’ll know that Brexit will be catastrophic for Scotland very soon.
I also think we need to avoid a winter referendum. Things also depend on what kind of transition period is agreed.
No transition and crashing out next March would mean having the referendum this year.
A transition means it can be later.
It HAS to be before Holyrood2021.
Indy2 says:
11 February, 2018 at 10:18 pm
Heedy, you and Peffers try to rule Wings with a rod of iron. You are a couple of Trolls.
Yeah yeah you phony. Its creeps like you etc etc:D
Best anthem for you indy2, chicken dance, cluck cluck
link to youtube.com
If Scotland doesn’t begin it’s democratic escape from UK/Westminster rule,
until after UK EU Exit (the Event),
we’ll be on our own, without EU Law (Brexit Creek/paddle etc).
If a process has begun it will make a big difference, thwarting the carpet-baggers.
There’s a lot of shite disfiguring this site tonight.
Things are going very well. There is a continuous frenetic attack on the SNP and independence going on yet support for independence stays firm and support for the SNP climbs as support for Tory and Labour recedes.
I have to beleive that some of the shite comes from those who only pretend to support independence.
Heedy
If I ever meet you ya dick,, you will be heed-less.
The true meaning of Brexit;
NHS England sold off ( NHS Scotland despite its best efforts will not be protected from the reach of Trump Trading Inc)
link to thelondoneconomic.com
And agriculture in the ‘devolved territories’ bites the dust- literally;
‘The research, conducted by the Centre’s director, Professor Michael Keating, investigated the challenges presented by UK policymaking being heavily influenced by the needs of agriculture in England, which are quite different from those in the devolved territories…
Policy for England, however, may not suit conditions in the devolved nations. Around half of farm incomes in England come from the CAP but in Scotland it is three quarters, in Wales it is 80 per cent and in Northern Ireland 87 per cent.
In part this is caused by 85 per cent of farm land in Scotland being in ‘areas of natural constraint’ such as hill farms, in Wales this is 81 per cent in Wales and 70 per cent in Northern Ireland, compared with only 17 per cent of farm land in England’
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
Scotland didn’t actually vote for any such arrangement.
“And, they left a Scottish political system with no sgnificant SNP presence and a country which certainly wasn’t split 50:50 for independence, and 2:1 for the EU!”
If this was the case i would not have left.I left Scotland in Dec.81 as there seemed no future for my 2 children and my fears were confirmed as the company i worked for was shut down. The opportunity of work in Canada and having relatives and friends here was a no brainer, it was just like moving house. I have not regretted the move, but i will always be Scottish.
I do not believe i should have a vote, as correctly stated only those who live, work and contribute should have their say.I think that fear and the social set-up has much to do with the hesitancy for a yes vote.The devil you know versus the devil you don’t.It seems to me that most of the population that voted no are not politically inclined.
I also think that people that have left have shown courage in making that decision as the results so far have proven.
Let me reassure you, i read Wings every day, and hope that when the time comes the no voters will be on the losing side. Scotland and its people deserve so much more.
@Dave McEwan Hill: “I have to beleive that some of the shite comes from those who only pretend to support independence.”
Say who you mean Dave, there’s nothing worse for morale than a general attack on posters, where everyone is left to think “Does he mean me?”.
Well, do you, punk?
Just spotted some protesters on WoS twitter feed marching for womens equal pay in Glasgow. Seems to have been a fancy dress affair as someone has come as Wolfie Smith (could be Frank Spencer but that doesn’t make any sense).
Indy2 says:
11 February, 2018 at 10:41 pm
Heedy
If I ever meet you ya dick,, you will be heed-less.
Thanks for the warning. Cluck cluck
This is not just the next Indyref:
Yes Scotland should have as many referendums as it likes when it likes, if we were Independent
But, if we lose this next referendum no matter how many MSPs we select, no matter how much representation we have, no matter if we fill up every seat in Holyrood the Tories will change or invent a constitutional arrangement similar to that of Spain in that never again can Scotland ever be an Independent nation
This is not just the next Indyref
This is our last shot there will never be another
Dr Jim @ 11.25
I agree. Those of us of our generation who have been voting SNP since the 70s need to see it happening for our grandchildren.
I have one grand-daughter able to vote and she will be voting Yes.
@Doug
Thanks for your comment. All the best to you & yours.
The SNP is alone in Scotland fighting for Scotland
People must never think they have the support of the Greens or any of the Unions, they don’t
The Unions in Scotland will always every single time turn on the SNP no matter what they do for the people because the people who run these Unions live a very nice life off the subs they’re paid by the members they control so they will always be Labour because to change the status quo might mean the loss of their incomes
A case in point Glasgow city council who spent over a quarter of a million pounds on legal fees to prevent womens equal pay, now those Unions put on mass demonstrations against the SNP who have just gained control of that council when they never demonstrated against their own Labour party for committing the crime in which they (the Unions) colluded
Even though the SNP are left with the mess to fix, and they are fixing it, but that isn’t politically acceptable for Labour and the Unions they need the SNP out so that things can return to normal and their fiefdom regained in order to con their members all over again
The leaders and people at the top of these Unions live life very well at the expense of their uninformed members in countries like Switzerland from where they fly around the world preaching more pay for workers which equals more subs for their international life styles so they don’t under any circumstances want that to change
Unions support the UK and always will, it’s a nice life for them so screw the members they just pay for it
Labour members and Union members stop being conned by those who’ll keep conning you and take a long hard look at the real and factual history of the Labour movement and what it was used for and who benefitted, because it was never you
Independence will set Scotland free, vote for it by voting SNP because if you don’t Scotland is about to go back to around fifty years ago when many young folk don’t remember just what Labour and the Unions are really all about
I’m 69 years old and I was there
I can’t get a gurn in edgeways?
@Dr Jim: “Independence will set Scotland free, vote for it by voting SNP . . .”
Current election schedule:
European Parliament – late May 2019
Scottish Parliament Elections – 6 May 2021
Local Government Elections – 5 May 2022
UK General Election – June 2022.
Indy Ref 2 likely – 14 March 2019 or autumn this year.
There’ll probably be no elections before Scotland votes YES (or NO).
Indy2,
“Your name should be Dick Heedy, not heedy.”
heedtracker,
“Best anthem for you indy2, chicken dance, cluck cluck”
Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, you are living proof that not all people in Scotland are stupid.
Dr Jim., ‘..case in point Glasgow city council who spent over a quarter of a million pounds on legal fees to prevent womens equal pay..’
Nothing around the ‘equal-pay saga’ could be worse, than what Labour have already done.
…….
Thats the focus of this site – challenging the lies, the mismanagement, the false realities, the bogus stats, the skewed perceptions they encourage. Not obsessing about parallel opinion.
I like that the personality of many of the Wingers commenting, shows itself in the broken storytelling style, to lift even vague debate into pointed attack (so long as it’s veracity harmonises with it’s context).
Coming from a position of cultural suppression, it’s hardly surprising that frustration rears it’s childish head, leading to ugly language that doesn’t exist in legislative or political discourse.
Ah was out writing ‘ X SCOTLAND X ‘ in the freshly fallen snow in Glasgow last night… wrote a few in the Gorbals on the way HOME.
Mornin’ silverbuick ~
As per your earlier:
link to youtube.com
The iScotRef announcement is nearing.
Independence is imminent.
Beep beep.
louis b. argyle @ 10:00am yesterday and 12:23am
After a long break. Thanks for the shout out earlier. It’s good to be acknowledged. Weather South of Sydney warm today just over 30C. We need rain can you send some over.
Scot Finlayson @ 10:42 am yesterday.
Yeah AC/DC originals were from my fair city. There are many Scots out here making a name for themselves in a variety of fields. We tend to be in science and medicine fields though some like AC/DC and Jimmy Barnes of Cold Chisel are in the “Arts”. If you like AC then you will like CC too. Check them out on you tube.
Doug @ 11:12PM
Agreed.
**********
To everybody on here attacking expats. Some of us may be ’emigrants’ but that does not mean we don’t want an independent country.
So don’t attack us for not living at home save the gripes for those you can identify as hostile.
Moving on
Great Win against the French Yeah!
I worry when I read so many posts and comments here there and everywhere that suggest, patience, and a need to wait, hold off on campaigning and so forth. Such comments display strategic naiveté. (Which is totally understandable but worrisome all the same.)
In any election the electorate is asked to make a value based decision. And the parameters of debate and the information given to support this debate are always narrower than they ought to be. The electorate are never given all the information, and as such can never make a completely informed decision. This tends to work in favour of the status quo. The mainstream media assist in narrowing the parameters.
So, you can have an election that is ‘all about Brexit? or ‘all about the economy’ or ‘All about the NHS’ or ‘All about immigration’ or combinations of the above…but you get the idea…the goal of our opponents is to avoid ‘Common Knowledge’ – because if there was ‘Common Knowledge’ – we win at a canter.
We have time, right now, to aim to provide the electorate with complete information, in order to create, what is known in game theory as ‘Common Knowledge’ a phrase we are all familiar with, but what it means in game theory is, when everyone knows the rules of the game, and has all the information in order to make their decision.
It’s theoretically possible to achieve Common Knowledge, but in practice it leans towards the impossible, however Common Knowledge has to be the goal. Think about it for a second. If all we can do, is inform the electorate, put them in a position to make an informed choice – our work is done, we can do no more.
If everyone in the Indy Movement is not singing from the same hymn sheet, we decrease out chances of achieving ‘Common Knowledge’ – that’s a fact.
Not so Fun Fact. The official Indy Campaign in 2014 refused to approve the use of and distribution of ‘The Wee Blue Book’ – I think the best of us in the campaign knew that it was the most efficient and richest source of information. But the SNP and the Greens and the online sights who dinnae like Wings didn’t ‘sell’ the virtues and value of said ‘Wee Blue Book’ – This cost us votes. Lots of em.
Right now, the Indy movement is split into factions. This is costing us potential votes. You know what I would do, if anyone gave a shit what I had to say? I’d get them in a room, and get them all talking and airing their grievances and differences and have someone there to let them know how important it is that they put their differences to the side and work together…in a cooperative fashion. (Like our opponents will, and they will folks.)
We don’t have the same reach as the No side, we do not have the MSM and the business world to back us up. So when we want to get information out there, we need as many information providers to get the information out there and aim to reach a consensus. If Wings says one thing, and Bella says another, and Common Space yet another, (whilst throwing rocks at each other) and the Greens yet still another, and the SNP another – this costs us votes…lots of them. If one of ‘us’ has the scoop, the smoking gun, all of us need to have said smoking gun.
When the bell sounds for the start of the official Indy Ref campaign the No side will align and work together, they will put differences aside and go in hard, like they did before. I hate them, but I admire their strategic pragmatism. What they will be doing is narrowing the debate, focusing on the fears and ignorance (the latter often engenders the former) of the relatively uninformed, and the perceived weaknesses in the Yes campaign’s arguments. They don’t have to be right or wrong in a factual sense, perception is everything.
So, you wanna know what we could and should be doing? Thinking about what people really need to know to make an informed decision, and then how best to get that information to everyone. And then doing it. Not just what we could be, but what we are right now, the good and the bad.
You can get 1000 people to march to the BBC in Pacific Quay, but I’d bet my net worth there is a better use of such resources: 1000 people, averaging 4 hours time spent, and any money spent on the day. I know I could put those resources to much better use than a march to Pacific Quay.
So…to the one or two people who made it this far, ponder this. A few months ago, I asked my dad this question. If I laid you 2-1 odds on 100 tosses of a coin, what would your strategy be? He could not give me an answer.
A month or so ago, I asked the same question to an MP. The MP could not give me an answer. In terms of information required to attain ‘Common Knowledge’ in this proposition one only needs to know the odds on a coin toss, 1-1 and then the odds being offered 2-1 (that being if you win you get twice your wager, if you lose you lose your wager.) Now that is about as simple a proposition as it gets. But it still seems ‘complex’. Now imagine how complex making a decision about how to vote in a referendum.
And then think about the concept of ‘waiting’ and ‘being patient’ and ‘trusting the SNP’ or the idea ‘that it is wrong to criticise the SNP.’
So many people do not know enough to make a decision, but come the day, if we have not done what is in our power to do, they will make one anyway. Food for thought? I hope so, cos I’m well past the point of going mad. Despair is the word I use.
Mornin’ Kangaroo ~
Good tae have ye with us, cheers for your postings 🙂
In other news…
Here’s another assessment before the impact (Viewer Discretion)
link to youtube.com
The international unions of this world give independent countries protection, from things like destructive tory UK governments and this “so-s’appelled”
BRUKexit happening in the first place.Protecting Scotland is key.
yesindyref2 @ 21:58,
The SNP have to go for WM elections, and not just “go through the motions” either, but equally not treat slightly-worse-than-inevitable losses as an unmitigated disaster. It’s as if some SNP MPs or exMPs actually believed the guff about the Tories having “won”. (Oh, or was it Labour what “won”, I forget already?)
The circumstances of the UKGE were heavily loaded against the SNP, and yet they survived it, bloody but (mostly) unbowed. It was a success, dammit, on any realistic appraisal.
Given the circumstances of WM, though, those good people are still on a hiding to nothing there. For that reason among others, I don’t believe the SNP deputy leader should be an MP. But then I’m unaligned as well, so I don’t get a say.
galamcennalath @ 22:25,
Yes, the nature and extent of the confrontation is still very uncertain, so we have to wait until we “see the whites of their eyes”. Bide our time, yes, but also be fully prepared and willing to go full tilt as soon as the opportunity presents.
What greatly troubles me though is that there are people like Pete Wishart who seem very keen not to engage at all anytime soon, just sometime, maybe, whenever. Prefer instead to navel gaze about “what went wrong” when what was wrong is that many people didn’t feel they were being led purposefully because of fainthearts like Pete Wishart.
Just when Brexitastrophe is beginning to penetrate to ordinary people as the unmitigated disaster that it truly is, with our opponents in serious disarray, up he pops to urge us to go into retreat over it! And he wonders why the SNP took a knock the last time round?
You can be willing to endure much if you believe your leadership has a plan and serious intent, and is just waiting to pounce when the time is right. You’ll give it up as a bad job instead if you come to believe that your leadership just hasn’t got the balls for it.
Cactus, beep beep to you to. You’re a star. Loved the CARtoon.
Cactus @ 2:59am
Hi There, that youtube vid certainly looks like Brexit. Hope Scotland has its’ seatbelt on. You certainly get around at nighttime judging from your posts.
MJT @2:53am
Youe are quite correct my friend. We should be preparing and selecting the battlefield right now. Framing the arguments.
I cant help you with ‘How to get all indy groups on same page’. There are those still arguing the toss about the kind of Scotland after indy. That is for a future debate but there are stupid people that will vote against unless its the kind of indy they want.
No reason why a Wee Blue Book can’t be distributed now. This would give people a chance to gain ‘Common Knowledge’ that they never thought of before. It also gives door knockers the chance to hand someone info and arrange to ‘call back’ to discuss later once the home owner had a chance to consider the contents.
Still more pertinent door knockers will get a better idea of concerns any doubters might have and can fill in the blanks with later info.
This would get things up-and-running gets the ground work prepared before the campaign starts. There is no need to have every answer to every detailed question being asked by the opposition, they will have their own problems trying to answer basic questions put to them eg How will my family be compensated for the considerable drop in income caused by Brexit? Will I still have a pension after Brexit? How do we protect the SNHS from a US takeover? etc etc
The unionists are already on the front foot with regards to indyref2, just look at the MSM coverage. We cant hope to match that so early campaigning and footslogging is one of our best weapons. Stu does a grand job pointing out the fallacies and inconsistencies in the MSM perhaps we need to gather voters emails and mobile phone numbers when giving out Wee Blue Books we can the offer updates straight to their mobiles.
Seems to me there is loads of stuff that can be done NOW. I am sure some Yes groups are already doing stuff.
It can’t be long before the starting gun is fired. Best get the prep done now. Generating the enthusiasm before the starting gun is all about campaigners understanding that you have to prepare and train the campaigners AND the voters BEFORE you press the START button.
After all Failing to Plan is planning to Fail.
Kangaroo, ta, I appreciate your support.
Silverbuick @ 4:32am
Hi from Oz
Keep commenting it does help. But there are some cantankerous souls on this forum but in the main they mean well. There are also several trolls and yoon spoilers around too.
I got this from one of the links above. Probably Nana but the first several paragraphs are hilarious.
I need more chocolate.
Tick tock tick tock…..tock sprrg uk bust. Yipee!
Missed the link. Silly me.
Galamacenallath supplied.
link to archive.is
The UK has the longest working week. Another privelege to add the worst pensions and low productivity. How do those geniuses in Westminster achieve all this?
Via euronews: link to euronews.com
link to scottishconstructionnow.com
link to peterabell.blog
Indycar Gordon Ross 11 02 18 Caring and Fair Scotland
link to youtube.com
link to trulyscottishtv.com
Professor David Hall from the Public Services International Research Unit talks about the efficiency of the private sector. More information in his report here link to psiru.org…
link to youtube.com
link to politicshome.com
link to politico.eu
IPSO: Toughest Regulator in the Western World?
link to youtube.com
link to irishtimes.com
link to politico.eu
Tories accept £30,000 from Vladimir Putin’s crony to dine with Defence Secretary
link to archive.is
UK Government website offline after hack infects thousands more worldwide
link to archive.is
Scotland’s Memoir
This IS who we are @Cable_mag A beautiful film by @bemis_scotland with fine contributions by @NicolaSturgeon & Tom Devine. But the real stars are new Scots from Africa, Russia & Afghanistan who love Scotland and touch the heart.
link to youtube.com
link to athousandflowers.net
link to elnacional.cat
Mornin’ Nana
Coffee in hand. 🙂
Clocked the Soros intervention. That one’s going to run.
Good morning Macart 🙂
Two more I forgot to post
link to mcdowall.blog
link to spice-spotlight.scot
The current situation is that there’s talk of the EU wanting to effectively keep N.I. in the Single Market.
So, how come when the FM did her tour of EU leaders, it was followed by reports that there can be no special deal for Scotland? The UK is the member state so it’s all the UK or nothing at all.
The SNP went from fighting for Scotland to Remain to trying to achieve Soft Brexit for ALL the UK, so it appears the stories were true.
So, when it’s Scotland: no special deals for parts of the UK but, the EU wants a special deal for NI.
O/T
Hamish100
You wrote “nice win against France.”
Excellent win for the Scots! … And a very good win for the English. So far, we have learned, probably, that both Wales and England appear to be very strong. Italy appear to the potential wooden spoon holders again. We are less sure about Scotland, France and Ireland though. Clearly Ireland can win the Championship but until they play Wales or England, we wont know their real “ranking”.
Based upon what I have seen so far, I would say England to win (obviously) with Wales or Ireland Second, Scotland fourth, then France and then Italy (unless Italy can rally and beat the French in their head to head).
Its been a high quality championship though with some great attacking rugby from all the teams. It appears to be the quality and resilience of the defences of the various teams that is the major differentiator.
@Kangaroo
some other classic Scots/Australian music,
Waltzing Matilda written by Banjo Paterson,son of Scottish immigrant Andrew from Lanarkshire,
And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda and
No Man’s Land /The Green Fields of France,written by Eric Bogle from Peebles.
I see Ruth Davidson can’t wait for next weeks S V E Rugby match as we know she will be there a good chance for Campbell or his sidekicks to doorstep her for some answers and ask where she has been hiding.No chance
Nana: ‘Scotland’s Memoir.’
Jesus Christ.
The tolerance for this kind of BS wore out a while back. Continue to show that level of contempt for the descendants of those who built and fought for this land, by all means. Idiots.
Dr. Jim @12.33am Agree wrt. the Unions. . . . The BBC are increasing their air time, . . . since Richard Cranium Leonard took over Union militancy is on the increase. . . . The Beeb gave the credit for RBS temporary saving 10 branches to a Union (Drive time just after 5pm) . . . Yup the Unions are coming to get us . . .
link to pensionsandsavings.com
Just in case its not been posted before .
Fuck your submarine and all who slink in its darkness.
I agree with Dr Jim and others that the “culprits” are hi-jacking the equal pay demos.
This is an opportunity for every SNP spokesperson without exception, especially if live on air, to mention the hypocrisy of Labour and the Unions on this matter.
The Tories are great at this no matter what topic they are there to discuss. Only a few SNP people on air such as Stephen Gethins are any good at this sort of thing but the SNP politicians by and large are rubbish at getting quick jibes in, especially some of their long serving people.
Time the SNP organised the week’s jibes for everyone in the SNP so that everyone on air does the same thing. Dead easy “Labour spent millions in Glasgow stopping equal pay for women”. No context required and takes 5 seconds to say and if live out it goes even if edited out later.
Reluctant Nationalist 9.26am.
I’m afraid comments like that do nothing to aid any case being put forward by anyone on anything.
I made a post a few minutes ago and it appeared but now it has disappeared.
Now it has reappeared.
Ronnie Anderson @ 9.22am Bateman came up with this in Feb. 2014 . . . That’s one thing he got right . . . link to derekbateman.scot
@Nana
Great catch on ‘Scotland’s Memoir’.
`Cause parliaments are on yet another holiday,
the parliament channel is reshowing Committee questioning the culprits about the Carillion debacle,
where Keith “I`m Voting No” Cochrane (ex of Weir Group and Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh) gets his yoonionist arse skelp,
the curse on the Scot yoons strikes again,
large spoonfuls of Schadenfreude.
Great coffee time links Nana, especially the right targeting Govanhill, Glasgow southside. That Prof Gallagher’s a very yoon sweety pie isn’t he:D
“When I approached Gallagher for evidence of his claim in November, as well as his wider belief about a cover up, he declined the opportunity to provide any information. ”
BBC Scotland were in Govanhill a lot too, indyref1 run up, routinely asking people to vote NO and why, “Scots will kick us all out and only give other Scots the jobs, if they win next week,” was the usual beeb Scotland gimp network vote NO Govanhill smear campaigning.
They did it too Balmedie too, Trump Golf wise, oh the tragedy of Scotland run by Orange Hitler’s bestie Alex Salmond, independent documentary, massive beeb gimp coverage, The Graun style broadsheet smear campaigning, vote No or see bonnie Scotland’s stunning beaches overrun/destroyed…
Balmedie’s a long way from Govanhill, but tory yoon attack propaganda is oddly similar. Its still there though, despite the 2014 yoon vote NO Balmedie beach frenzy.
link to visitscotland.com
I caught that state pension story and similar table in the Daily Express as I had a free read while getting The National.
Tried in 2014 to explain to my partner’s Oban parents that WM would still be liable for their state pension after a YES and their pension was the worst in Europe even then.
They looked at me in disbelieve!
Was up to see them last weekend, both poorly, both voted for Brexit … Both now see that was a mistake but SNPEE still bad.
FGS! 🙁
Nana 8.25
That ‘Putin crony’ story appeared slightly earlier in the Mail.
They also pointed out that the woman in question paid £20,000 to the Tory Party so she could dine with Ruth Davidson!
Talk about a meal with two long spoons.
link to archive.is
Kangaroo
Another Scottish contribution to Australian music.
link to archive.is
Heedy
Peffers
Sensible Dave
Rock
Colin Alexander
One guy or two at the most behind these Trolls.
They were brought in to fuck up Wings and boy have they succeeded.
Prime Minister Theresa May has been told that getting a good deal for the fishing sector after Brexit is an “absolute red line” for the Scottish Conservatives.
A story in the P&J how do I do a link so I can show it here.
Party leader Ruth Davidson has been holding talks at 10 Downing Street to make it clear that she wants fishing communities to be “reaping the benefits” from the outset.
@ronnie anderson
Yes. UK state pensions are a disgrace. However, that article isn’t very well written.
Here is the source info it uses …
link to oecd.org
A better way to have put it is … “the UK has state pensions which are amongst the lowest in the developed world”
I believe a commitment to bring Scottish state pensions up to the EU average quickly, then move to the best over a number of years, would be a big winner for IndyRef2,
Maybe we should ask more ‘top’ economists, whether Scotland’s pensions are/would be, more sustainable after full independence.
Normally, being aligned with a larger neighbour would ensure ‘stability’.
However, now that we see the corrupted way England runs it’s affairs, Scotland could easily provide a fairer system.
Indy2 says:
12 February, 2018 at 10:44 am
Heedy
Peffers
Sensible Dave
Rock
Colin Alexander
One guy or two at the most behind these Trolls.
They were brought in to fuck up Wings and boy have they succeeded.
I think Rock could be a (literary) agent. He keeps trying to get Bob Peffers to write a book.
Thought McWhirter was tripe in the Sunday Herald, he will never, ever be an Ian Bell.
@ call me Dave
I always follow your in-law updates with interest! It is interesting to hear they see through the tissue of lie about Brexit, that is progress!
I spoke to a random SNP supporter (dog walking chat). I said I hoped the SNP contingent that did vote Leave were weighing up one union against the other.
His response – I dislike the EU, but I HATE Westminster, and will always take Independence if its a choice.
I hope many Leavers who naturally would be Indy, will be seeing the economic destruction of leaving everything.
Also that toryboy Jeremy Balfour’s, terminally ill live longer than three years and your back to toryboy benefit year zero.
link to mcdowall.blog
“It is clear that the ‘benefit scrounger’ and ‘workshy malingerer’ narratives regurgitated by the Tories are having a negative impact on society.
The Tories are pitching communities against each other and empowering and encouraging neighbours to ‘do their bit’ by spying on each other and reporting any anomalies to HQ.”
So, we are writing to inform you that you are being sanctioned and your benefits are stopped because you’re not dead yet.
Vote Colonel Ruth, we’re BetterTogether.
Indy 2 10.44
You wrote
“Heedy
Peffers
Sensible Dave
Rock
Colin Alexander
One guy or two at the most behind these Trolls. They were brought in to fuck up Wings and boy have they succeeded.”
….. ?????!!!!!! OMG Indy 2?!?!?
Are you seriously suggesting that I am another incarnation of, for example Heedy, or Peffers???
I have criticised the judgement of people who contribute here on Wings from time to time, but, if this is an example of your sage like knowledge wisdom and judgement – then it just proves, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that you really don’t know your a**e from elbow.
You should be truly embarrassed.
Anyway, more importantly,what about the rugby?
They were brought in to fuck up Wings and boy have they succeeded.
Free advice Indy2,
Complain to the WoS blog moderator. That’s should get us trolls blocked. Its probably a very quick process too.
How’s that chicken dance anthem going:D
Striking a different note check out on youtube: Marche des Soldats de Robert Bruce or Marsch der Soldaten von Robert Bruce. Fascinating export of part of our rich cultural patrimony.
If you read French and German the comments are enlightening too.
Vive l’Écosse! Es lebe Schottland!
Heard of ‘le Roman de Fergus’? Neither had I until a couple of weeks ago. A satire written in Old French in Scotland in the early 13th century.
For a small country Scotland is quite remarkable. SHOUT IT LOUD!
Take the time to watch this
link to youtube.com
I have criticised the judgement of people who contribute here on Wings from time to time, but,
Its odd that you do do sensible d. If only for the simple fact that toryboy’s like you run Scotland today, say 500 miles south of Carlisle, each time you vote toryboy.
Sure its what just enough proud Scot buts decided was a good way to run Scotland, 2014, England’s toryboys deciding the big stuff for your Scotland region, your beeb gimp network in Scotland taking out any and all opposition.
Its how toryboy’s like your good self sensible dave run your regions, fractious and peaceful.
For how much longer though sensible d?
Beeb gimp network is extremely powerful up here sensible d, if only for what they cover up, sneaky creepy toryboy wise. See last week and how Viceroy Fluffy and Colonel Ruth were able to go into hiding, regards some rather spectacular bare faced toryboy lying, to your Scotland region.
Familiar, sensible d?
Fred at 11.03
Correct. Completely unreliable judgement about anything.
@ Capella 8.10am
UK has longest hours working week? Well, kiss it goodbye, and welcome in non stop working weeks.
One of the first items on the bonfire of EU protections will be the EU Working Directive which was to protect worker’s rights, hours, holidays etc.
Apparently, there is a Downing St paper touting this as an ‘opportunity’ for tackling production. UK has high costs of production. I’m sure there are other things affecting that cost, but of course you know workers will get the kicking.
From the govt that loves zero hour contracts.
@ DMH – yes it is an encouraging video. Nana linked to it above and noted that Nicola appears at the end. But the star, for me, is Billy Kay with his insights into the cultural diversity Scotland has always enjoyed. Royal proclamations used to address “Scottish, English, French and Flemish” citizens.
I would love to see much more of this type of production.
@ Valerie – I should have made clear that it is our full time workers who put in the longest hours in Europe.
I was shocked when I read about the pittance that is the UK pension and that plans are afoot to withhold even that small amount until the age of 70.
A Peasants Revolt is long overdue.
Jings! DWP letter lying behind the door there as I get home from the shopping.
As from April 10th…ish I am entitled to a general increase in my State Pension. £5.10 a week I calculate and there was me complaining a wee while ago.
Got a sorry if your dead sentence and apology with it too 🙂
@Valerie Oban parents -in-law …
spent 4 days just last week on a visit to keep my partner happy but we went to an hotel to bide.
I was well warned not to discuss politics beforehand so I bit my tongue a little and baulked when I was asked to get him his ‘Daily Mail’ from Tescos on the way up the hill to their house.
BBC tv on and the Coronation coach 1953 tapestry still on the wall, casual xenophobia unthinking comments from the newspaper snippets, the royals etc etc. LibDems and voted Tory at the GE miss Charlie Kennedy and so on and so on…
I.., should say WE were glad to get home 🙂
PS: Meanwhile the Tories darn Sarf.
link to nursingnotes.co.uk
Scott 10.50am
link to pressandjournal.co.uk
link to P an’ J story about how (t)Ruthless is pressurising TM to make sure the Scottish fishermen win out in Brexit or else!!!
Comparative and collateral damage:
Hard Brexit would take 7% off Irish economy by 2030:
link to irishtimes.com
The latest jolly old wheeze by the Tories
Interest only mortgages
The Government of westminster will stop paying their part of the interest on your mortgage on 5th April 2018
Instead they will give you a loan every month to make up the shortfall, this loan ofc will include the interest to be paid on that loan
So, lets sum this up, if you take up this offer, every month the government pays you this loan they will be owning another piece of your house, what a lovely old wheeze old chaps, as a guy once said, at least Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask
Indy2
Naughty, naughty mixing independence supporters with some trolls. Why?
Stu’s internet is still down. Mine is intermittent. Both my PC and tablet died a couple of weeks ago.
Is this god’s way of telling me that I should be getting on with household chores?
Or are terrestrial beings interfering in telecomms?
Maybe we ought to get the carrier pigeons trained up. I once read that Rothschild got advance news of Waterloo by carrier pigeon. They ae maybe as efficient as current UK networks.
@Graeme says: 11 February, 2018 at 7:23 am:
“I’m not suggesting we give a vote to expats and I’m not trying to blame anyone But I find it a a bit strange that we give a vote to the very people we’re trying to break away from ie non Scot UK nationals.”
And that wee bit of your argument is exactly what exposes it as very wrong logical and legal thinking, Graeme.
It also exposes the same thinking for those you designate as being United Kingdom Nationals. for no such nation as, “The United Kingdom legally exists.
The United Kingdom is not a nation.
The United Kingdom is exactly what its title describes it as A kingdom. i.e. It is a monarchy with a Royal person as its head. The problem is that while the monarch is the Queen of England who is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England she is only the Queen of Scots and under Scots law is not sovereign in Scotland. Yet the United Kingdom Parliament is exercising legal sovereignty over Scotland that has never been legally given to her and which was NOT thus ever granted to the monarchy by the Treaty of Union.
What is more The United Kingdom, is a bipartite union of two, equally sovereign, partner kingdoms.
Furthermore one of the particular united kingdom partner kingdoms is comprised of three very distinct countries. Each of which country is a nation in its own right and I quote the definition of a nation :-
link to en.wikipedia.org
Also, The Kingdom of Scotland is also a country and a nation, in its own right as well as being a legally equally sovereign kingdom in its own right.
Not to mention that the parliament that the monarchy of the kingdom of England is legally bound to delegate their sovereignty to, since the 1688 Glorious Revolution, was the parliament of The Kingdom of England and not the Parliament of the legally bipartite United Kingdom.
No parliament of the country or kingdom of England has had anyone elected to it since the last day of April 1707. Thus no such legal parliament has existed since that day.
Simply, Graeme, there is no such nation as The United Kingdom and there is no such legal parliament as the Kingdom of England or the country of England. It is, and has been since 1 May 1707, the Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom.
If anything it is a political and/or monarchical union of kingdoms which at present not only differs in the legal status of the monarch in each individual kingdom but in its support for the political make-up of its common parliament.
The point being that those you designated as United Kingdom Nationals believe themselves to belong to a nation that doesn’t exist but why do you also believe they are?
While Scotlands Yessers argue the toss with each other over policy and direction the Unionists rally behind a *VOLE* to defeat Scotland
I said VOLE but it could be a Monkey or a Tweety bird it amounts to the same thing
“ Galamcennalth @1056 am” . Agree that a commitment from the Scottish government to align Scottish state pensions to the EU average over a reasonable period of time would be a Indyref2 votewinner. Also a further promise to retain the retirement age at 65 would be more appropriate in Scotland.
Here is an interesting video on youtube, and please do not put it down just because the guy is english, this effects us all and i am an SNP supporter in case anyone asks here
The video features a very clever guy called Paul Weston, now i have followed Paul Weston for quite a few years now, this man has been in trouble before for just telling the truth, he was actually arrested and charged for reading out in public what Churchill had said years before, ofc the people who arrested and charged him did not realise this, according to them it was hate speech, they thought the words where his own.
Go to youtube and google in,…….. How to Destroy a Country
Meg merilees
One wonders, or what from Davidson? The MPs are under the UK Tory whip, she can’t threaten anything.
meg merrilees@12.37
Wee Ruthie Jong Un pressurising TM or else over fishing, or else what? going into hiding as per the norm when the Tory shit hits the fan.
It will be the SNP who be doing all the hard graft and as per the norm, they will get FK all credit for it.
O/T
looks like the Brexiteers have their excuse for foreign aid cuts. I know its a serious situation, but seems very convenient for the problem to come to light just now.
It seems the Beeb/establishment have forgotten Saville etc.
Bit of a fishy blue squirrel on Davidson’s baker dozen there I am thinking even if Bertie wants us to swallow it hook line and sinker. 🙁
£500M painted on a fishing smack seems similar to another Tory promise re: Brexit.
o/t is it my imagination or maybe a Freudian slip the list of recent posts at the top of the page reads in order .
Impact Assessment Ruth Davidson is available any day now ,
now that could be tomorrow’s headline in the scotsman ha ha just a bit of frivolity on my part , as if she could say anything remotely bordering on a truthful answer , she probably aint involved anyway , she’s like fluffy being kept of of the way in case she says something stupid .
Heedtracker at 11:14 am
You wrote “They were brought in to fuck up Wings and boy have they succeeded.”
Err Heedy. He was writing about you too!
The implication being that you and the mighty Peffers are, effectively 5th columnists!
Polls tell us more than anything else, that there are some really dumb people around.
A BMG poll for The Independent was released on Sunday.
74 per cent of the public said TMay’s plans for Brexit were unclear. Yes, them and most of the rest of the world.
It’s the 17 per cent who said they were clear that worry me. How can they be clear when no one else is? Especially the Tories themselves. They haven’t made their minds up. Those who feel clear about plans must have an astonishing level of self delusion plus blind irrational faith in May et al.
A further 9 per cent said they did not know whether the plans were clear or unclear. Surely, if you don’t know whether you are clear, you must be unclear by definition?
The implication being that you and the mighty Peffers are, effectively 5th columnists!
That’s deep sensible.
He’s just another twerp that doesn’t like to see anyone dissing his precious precious union with, well you basically.
A union that’s so equal, toryboy’s like you UKOK rule up here, with the beeb gimp network, no matter how hard Scots wont vote toryboy, or how hard beeb gimps try to make us.
But as that twerp shows, there is still a yoon tory culture that wants no change in your Scotland region.
Must be murder reading anything that challenges tory yoon rule of your greater English region of Scotland too but who knows where it all end sensible.
You toryboys still own Scotland, for now.
Its all in the spin sensible dave, spin that youre not to shabby at either, as long as the value of your house keeps going up and up, its tory rule britnatia all the way, until actually flogging it and retiring to, I’m going to say you’re an Eastbourne style imperial tory master sensibledave?
Oh to be a toryboy from the southeast of the merry olde England zone. You lot better hope your Farage hero is not in fact the harbinger of UKOK doom sensible d.
Its still bizarre trying to work out why the whole beeb gimp network made Farage such a powerful household name though sensible.
BBC is probably the most corrupt right wing public broadcasters in any Western democracy but its hard to see what massed ranks of beeb gimps can gain personally from a teamGB on the Brexit down escalator.
Be great to hear why you think they’ve done it sensible, as a high English tory in the southeast of England, at the front line, against the evil EU?
A few links for a slow afternoon
SNP warn against ‘savage’ cuts to education in Moray
link to archive.is
Fluffy off on a wee jolly
link to centralfm.co.uk
Caller to the Alex Salmond show, he’s got a lot to say
link to lbc.co.uk
Brexit: the ballad of Digby Jones
link to ft.com
Re last week’s restoration of Scotland to its proper size relative to the rest of the UK on the BBC Weather Map has anybody ever produced a reverse map looking from N To S from a point up about The Faroes?
Farage quoted by Reuters ….
“The best case scenario right now under our current pathetic leadership is Brexit in name only – that is about as good as it gets. At worst they are going to make us fight the whole thing again, that is a significant betrayal of what many millions voted for. “
… sounds a bit het up.
However, therein lies the true feelings of Brextermists. If they don’t get a Brexit they approve of, they will just keep campaigning. A lot of Leaves probably did want the hard Brexit Farage is talking about, so they are still potential fodder for a re born UKIP.
The conclusion has to be, one way or another, Brexit will totally ruin England.
And, Scotland needs to get out!
link to archive.is
link to independent.co.uk
(Apologies, but second one doesn’t archive)
(sigh)
It should probably have occurred to Mr Cameron back in 2016 that the UK was party to some fairly crucial standing agreements with the devolved legislatures. Devolution settlements, Good Friday agreement… that sort of thing.
Y’know, it probably should also have occurred to Mr Cameron before calling an EU referendum that there was a chance of an EU exit being the winning vote and that UK gov may stand to be endangering both word and spirit of those agreements. That such a winning vote would dump a constitutional catastrophe in everyone’s laps. Not that yer average Tory gives a shit and most certainly not the type of Tory who drove their own party schism over Europe, but UK gov had already willingly committed to those agreements. An exit vote was ALWAYS going to result in constitutional crisis. Yet, this is the team who do so love to bang on about the public interest.
You’d have thought it was in the public’s interest to be fully informed BEFORE any EU ref was ever put before them. It was in the public interest to have access to ALL the facts pro and contra EU membership. It was in the public interest to be made FULLY aware of the consequences of any given scenario of leaving the EU regarding the economy, Northern Ireland agreements, the standing UK devolution settlements and the pledges made to Scotland’s electorate on the 2014 indyref. It was in the public’s interest that they went into any EU ref with the full agreement of the devolved parliaments (they do constitute nation partners, right?) and that contingencies for both votes were in place.
Those, (you’d think), were in the public’s interest.
Given the utter and complete lack of ALL of the above? You’d be forgiven for thinking that the public’s best interests were never really considered at all.
@Gus1940
link to imgur.com
Tory way of doing things, dress up all posh, get drunk and wreck everything they can, it will be all right in the morning.
Not this time it wont, they are hell bent on wrecking This UK and filling their own pockets, then its not their problem.
Macart says:
Never entered the minds of either side!
Cameron’s view would have been that Remain wouldn’t lose. He has no reason to plan for anything else. His motivation was to get the Euroskeptics to shut up for a while.
The motivation behind Brexiteers was to shift the UK from being a European country into a US clone. The rich would get even richer and the plebs would know their place. They callously used English Nationalism and anti immigration feeling as a means to their end.
Northern Ireland, Good Friday, Scotland, ordinary folks everywhere, even the Labour Party …. just pawns in a dangerous far right game.
o/t it was quoted yesterday by someone regarding glasgow city councils decision fight equal pay for women a case the council lost in the court of session .
The figure stated was £ 250.000 i guess this might have been a Typo as the current figure stands at £2.500.000 yes thats two and a half million I dont know if this includes all legal fees that are quoted as being £ 1.838.425 – 10 years and the best part of 3 million quid ,
Now the council has a bill of 500.000.000 yep five hundred million pounds to find in order to pay compensation gulp .
Scotland needs labour like a broken arm and a dose of something very very harmful , now labour are pointing the finger at the current SNP administration because they were trying to minimise the losses by appealing ,
Christ labour cause the problem and blame the SNP for trying to fix it because its makes labour look bad , I wonder if the folk on yesterday’s march are aware of how labour has totally f/kd them over , it seems not as a labour mp was allowed to join in the protest march .
@ Nana. So Fluffy is away to the Far East in case he’s required to answer any questions. Seems a bit extreme?
You look at today’s sad Labour Party in Scotland happy to abandon Scotland’s interests in the hope that Scottish votes will put them into power in Westminster them you read a speech from John Maxton
He said “Give us our parliament in Scotland. We will start with no traditions. We will start with ideals. We will start with purpose, with courage. We will start with the aim and the object that there will be 134 men and women pledged to 134 Scottish constituencies, to spend their whole brain power, their whole courage and their whole soul in making Scotland into a country in which we can take people from all the nations of the earth and say : this is our land, this is our Scotland ,these are our men, our works, our women and children: can you beat it?
Mundell in Hong Kong and Japan? They’ll wonder who he is. Of course Mundell has no position in relation to Scotland and the rest of the world, he is Westminster’s stooge in Scotland. He can make no decisions for Scotland.
The Japanese will be well aware of who and what Mundell is, they do their research very thoroughly and they will smile and offer him full courtesy then dismiss every word he says
Although Japan is a very modern country their culture is still very strong and very Japanese as it should be and a person of Mundells standing in Japan is seen as a messenger, nothing more nothing less
A postman if you will
Mundell: disorientated in the Orient.
@Brian Powell
@Dr Jim
…. in Hong Kong they will, of course, recognise Mundell as a Colonial Governor like wot they used to have 😉
Jings!
Mundell whisked away from his day job to the faar awaay East.
Leaving oor Ruthie down in Westminster trying to perform a miracle with 13 Tory loaves and a Bertie Herring…Aye right!
Mind you, it’ll be news in some papers and shortbread radio will give it a whirl.
PS:
My other Daily Mail reader 83yrs old that I talk to in the cafe has just bought herself a tablet and is going on free wifi in the Glenrothes Centre. I’ll get her on WOS yet!
All the same , good for her giving it a go.
Re the Oxfam crisis – bit of the pot calling the kettle black isn’t it given the behaviour of the WM Politicians, the rife sexism and god know what else. Both morally corrupt and wrong.
HAIKU FOR FLUFFY
Morning snow melts away
And the owl flies east at dusk
Wise in his silence
My post at 3.19.was a speech by James Maxton. Not John Maxton who was not even a pale shadow of his father
Proud Cybern— @2.51
Thanks – but that isn’t much more than an upside down map. – it isn’t a projection from far north of Scotland in the same way as the BCC crooked one is a slanted projection from a viewpoint somewhere over the Bay of Biscay.
Nice to see a pic of Heather the Weather.
Seems SNP bad is relentless…
was listening to Woman’s Hour on the Biased broadcasting corp this morning and couldn’t quite believe my ears. Jane Garvey actually accused the SNP of causing homelessness in Scotland.
Background: there is a cross-party proposal in Scotland to look at at type of Finnish homelessness programme which fast tracks homeless people into a building with a roof over their head ASAP;
The presenter managed to turn that round into an all out attack on the SNP – since we’ve been in power for the last 10 years it must be our fault if anyone is homeless in Scotland. Can you imagine how cold and awful that must be etc….
Contrast that with the Council policy in Windsor which is adamant that there will no ‘unattached bedding’ lying around – £100 fine if you leave your sleeping bag lying around; no written or verbal requests for money – not sure what the shopkeepers and coffee stall holders are going to do to extract payment for goods and no beggars on the streets during the Royal Wedding… that’s probably all Nicola’s fault too. Not a peep from the BBC about that?
Robert Pfeffers @1:02pm 12Feb
I might be clutching at straws here, but it’s worth asking the question.
A point I have just thought of as a result of your post.
The delegation of ‘royal sovereignty’ to the english parliament took place when King William took over the english crown sometime in late 1600’s. Presumably this is documented. The english parliament was subsequently dissolved in 1707. That would mean royal sovereignty would need to be delegated again to the new combined parliament after Union.
If there is no legal document to this effect then english sovereignty must still rest with the Monarch.
Do you know if such a document exists?
@Bill not Ben says: 12 February, 2018 at 1:11 pm:
“Here is an interesting video on youtube, and please do not put it down just because the guy is english, this effects us all and i am an SNP supporter in case anyone asks here.
First of all I will not be following links to this guy because he is English, I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against English people who I have always found to be generally a decent, caring and reasonable people.
I cannot blame an entire nation for the evil of the Westminster Establishment.
I will not be following links to him because he is English but is an active racist and religious agitator.
Furthermore he is not the clever person you claim him to be. That title of the former political party, “Liberty GB”, says it all. The term, “GB”, stands for, “Great Britain”, i.e. the main, or greatest in size, island of the British Isles.
Great Britain’s claim to be, “Great”, is thus nothing more than a geographic term referring to the size of the main island of the British Archipelago. It is a commonly used geographic term as in the Firth of Clyde’s usage to differentiate between the larger of the two islands that are Cumbrae.
This guy, though, attempts to attach quite different connotations to the term. In fact Great Britain has, under the Westminster Establishment, become simply England but wrongly claims to be The United Kingdom.
Westminster rules over, “Great Britain”, but does not rule over all of the British Isles. It thus rules over Great Britain under the guise of being, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom. However it really is the, (unelected as such), de facto parliament of the country of England that factually has devolved a few unimportant items of what it sees as the sovereignty of the Queen of England, to the other three countries that comprise the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
Thus Westminster is the, (unelected as such), de facto parliament of the country of England lording it over the other three United Kingdom countries.
If you cannot see that as fact then consider why Westminster uses EVEL to enforce its powers over Scotland, Wales and N.I.
Yet here you are claiming to be a staunch supporter of Scottish Independence while bigging up this total zoomer of a religious and racist bigot.
@galamcennalath says: 11 February, 2018 at 10:33 pm:
“We have a mandate. We must use it.”
First of all, “WE”, do not have a mandate – The SNP/SG have the mandate and , “WE”, only gave it to her. Now can we just leave it to her to use it wisely?
It is one thing having a mandate and quite another thing how, and importantly when, to use it.
Hitler had a mandate from the German people and look how that turned out.
Stalin had a mandate from the Russians but look how that turned out for the USSR.
Robert Bruce had a mandate from the Scots and by using that mandate at the right time he won Scottish Independence.
The Scottish Parliament in 1706 had a mandate from the legally sovereign people of Scotland and we are still attempting to overturn how that mandate was used.
Presently Trump has a mandate from the electorate of the USA but it looks increasingly as if he is finding it rather hard to use it as he sees fit.
Theresa has a mandate from the people of England and is attempting to use it to ride roughshod over the Scots and Welsh and being aided to do so by the N.I. administration.
Having a mandate is all very well – but only if you use it well and at the right time.
@Dave McEwan Hill says: 11 February, 2018 at 10:36 pm:
“I have to beleive that some of the shite comes from those who only pretend to support independence.”
Well, Dave, you really do not have to believe it but I think you very wise to do so.
I’ve exposed one such, (cough!), committed indy supporter here today who advocates we watch a video from the guy who instigated and fronted the little known registered political Party, “Liberty GB”.
He, and his party, (now apparently wound-up), are a bunch of racist, religious bigots. They campaigned against Muslims and not just the terrorists that claim to be Muslims but who violate everything that the Muslim faith stands for.
Just as such as the Loyal OO violate everything that Christ, and Christianity stand for. True Christians cannot be following the teaching of Christ if they use militant methods against anyone and that includes the Crusaders. You cannot defend a religion by going against that religions teachings.
@Indy2 says: 11 February, 2018 at 10:41 pm:
“Heedy
If I ever meet you ya dick,, you will be heed-less.”
Am I alone in seeing the, (apparent), group of false flag Indy supporters becoming rather more openly offensive of late?
They may, of course, all be manifestations of the same person, (or organisation), but there seems to be a concerted move towards threats and offensiveness just of late.
@yesindyref2 says: 11 February, 2018 at 11:12 pm:
“Well, do you, punk?”
Hilarious! See how desperate these false flag people are to disrupt the independence movement. Soon as you expose their, fairly easy to identify, ulterior motives they become abusive and lash out indiscriminately in all directions.
@Dr Jim says: 11 February, 2018 at 11:25 pm:
“This is our last shot there will never be another.
Och! No, Dr, Jim, People have made such claims before but allow me to quote you a wee bit from, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, the document that actually won legal independence for Scotland:-
So, there you go, Dr. Jim, in 1320 there were people around who thought Scotland would never get another chance – and here we are fighting the same battles over again – and there are a damned site more than 100 of us fighting for it now.
@Indy2 says: 11 February, 2018 at 10:18 pm:
“The two of you should get off your high horses and maybe people with more constructive views than you and Peffers might start joining the debates.
What debates might that be, Indy2?
What, “constructive views”, might they be?
All that you have exhibited so far, are your own, (or the Westminster Establishment’s), negative propaganda views and, quite frankly, destructive criticism of Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP and the SG.
You lot do not debate – you state what can only be described as personal, or Westminster inspired, opinions and you never quote any logic that you may have used to support what are thus just personal opinions. That is not debate or even argument. It is attempted brow beating.
Debate consists of proposing an idea, or an action, and explaining why you propose it and, if possible, backing it up with hard evidence or with quoted examples.
If you do not do so then all you are doing is attempting to persuade others to adopt your own personal, and unexplained, propositions without debate.
As to, “High Horses”, do you know what that term actually means, Indy2?
Allow me to enlighten you:-
high horse – Arrogantly believing oneself superior to others, often by putting down large groups of people. In usage, such a person is described as “on a high horse” or may be told to “Get off your high horse.”
So just who are these, “Large Groups of People”, you imagine we, the accused, are guilty of, “putting down”?
Oh! Wait a moment! That’ll be you, Rock, sensible dave, and colin/Colin/COLIN, et al, will it?
Let me put it this way for you – who are those on, “High Horses”, those with logical and backed with proofs propositions or those who express their own, (or the Westminster Establishment’s), propaganda without a shred of evidence?
Yer a chancer Indyref2 and your every comment proves it so.
Now you, and the rest of the sock puppets, are resorting to actual threats of violence when you do not get your own way.
Tell you what, I’m a disabled and ill octogenarian, Indyref2, but if you really want to confront me in a violent manner then bear this in mind – I’m not the one hiding behind a nom de guerre. I’m just who I honestly always claim to be and am thus able to be found by anyone determined enough to trace me.
Me? I’m Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers, Frae Kelty in Fife.
Will I see you soon?
Oh! Mind an no beware o the dug. She’s jist a wee Papillon bitch- if you call upon me you must best beware of her owner.
Hi Mr Peffers.
You seem to be conflating yesindyref2 (long time commenter) and Indy2 (newbie).
@MJT says: 12 February, 2018 at 2:53 am:
“I worry when I read so many posts and comments here there and everywhere that suggest, patience, and a need to wait, hold off on campaigning and so forth. Such comments display strategic naiveté. (Which is totally understandable but worrisome all the same.)”
In the first place that is absolute waffle and secondly historically inaccurate. The best tacticians know when to mount a surprise attack when the element of surprise will win the day but they also know when to hold off their attacks if their opponents are making mistakes. There is nothing naïve about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP/SG holding off just now for all evidence shows that the unionist parties are haemorrhaging voters while the SNP are gaining them.
That great tactician, Napoleon, said, “Never interrupt your enemy while they are making tactical errors”.
On the other hand great tacticians also know the value of a surprise attack but if you telegraph it to your enemy it will not come as a surprise to them. Furthermore, the enemy can become over anxious at apparent inactivity and thus be driven to acting wrongly in haste. Looks to me as if Theresa and the Westminster Establishment are in more than a bit of a tizzy A.T.M.
“In any election the electorate is asked to make a value based decision. And the parameters of debate and the information given to support this debate are always narrower than they ought to be.”
That, too, is a myth. While the electorate are indeed asked to make value based decision, they remain mostly ill-informed and the majority actually vote for a party for loyalty and/or self interest. Ask any canvasser and they will quote you the doorstep retorts of, “Ah! vote fir Labour like ma faither and ma faither’s faither”.
” … the goal of our opponents is to avoid ‘Common Knowledge’ – because if there was ‘Common Knowledge’ – we win at a canter.”
Again that is cobblers awls, MJT.
What, “Common Knowledge”, consists of is something quite different. I’d best quote a couple of examples of, “Common Knowledge”, to illustrate the point.
It is, “Common Knowledge”, that Scotland is subsidised by English taxpayers money. Factually England is actually heavily subsidised by Scotland. To get that in true perspective consider these facts:-
In an average year, (and using the Treasury’s already fiddled figures), The Scottish Per Capita GDP is usually higher than that of both England and the United Kingdom of which Scotland is a part. Now the definition of Per Capita GDP is – The total value of revenue to the Treasury from any given area divide by the total population of that given area. Thus, if Scotland’s Per Capita GDP exceeds that of England and/or the UK as a whole, then each Scot, on average, contributes more to the Treasury than any other country in the United Kingdom.
However, “Common Knowledge”, is side-tracked by the simple old trick of NOT comparing like with like. The enemy will quote the country of Scotland with that of the, “City”, of London. That is the one square mile of the London financial sector. They even often quote the three country Kingdom of England with the single country Kingdom of Scotland – like comparing oranges with apples and quoting the result as a fruit Salad.
There are various other little, “Common Knowledge”, or rather, “Lack of Common Knowledge”, fiddles always in play when Westminster unionists are involved. For example the lack of knowledge of what the actual, “Block Grant”, is and how it is derived.
The Block Grant is NOT of English taxpayers money, for as far as treasury figures go, there is no English funding as only England is funded directly as The United Kingdom while the rest get a block grant of United Kingdom funds and the rest of the United Kingdom are already part of that United Kingdom. That is they are mainly getting back their own contributions to the United Kingdom – not contributions to England.
Which brings us to the, “Common Knowledge”, about the Barnett Formula, (or rather the lack of such knowledge).
Westminster claims that, “Scots get a bigger per capita funding than everyone else. Which, in itself is a lie for the highest per capita funded bit of the United Kingdom is actually Northern Ireland and here’s why – When Westminster devolved functions from the Westminster Ministries to the three devolved countries they also had to devolve the funds from the United Kingdom ministries to fund the devolved functions and each devolved area has a different level of devolved functions.
That is why each area has a different level of per capita funding. It is not because English taxpayers are being more generous or less generous with English taxpayer’s money.
I could quote you several other, “Common Knowledge”, myths but sufficient for the explanation of how your average voter is deliberately left in the dark.
@Scott says: 12 February, 2018 at 10:50 am:
“A story in the P&J how do I do a link so I can show it here.”
If you are reading it on-line then click on the link to highlight it and press the Ctrl+C keys together to copy the link.
Then, when you make your comment on Wings you put your cursor where you want the link to be and press Ctrl+V keys together and that pastes the copies link to the comment.
Alternatively you can right click on the the link and that brings on a pop-up menu that has both cut and paste on the menu.
However, if the link is for a YouTube link then you have to remove everything before the www, bit of the link from that pasted to the comment and the Rev Stu’s setup will replace the removed bit when it appears as a comment.
Hope that helps.
@Kangaroo says: 12 February, 2018 at 9:59 pm:
Sorry I’m a bit late in reply, Kangaroo I am playing catch up again, as usual.
The facts are indeed well documented but here’s a brief historic round up for you.
The Holy Roman Se, (The Pope), was head of all Christendom, (mostly Europe), and there was then no Protestant churches. So as far as Christendom was concerned God was the top of the hierarchy
A point I have just thought of as a result of your post.
The delegation of ‘royal sovereignty’ to the english parliament took place when King William took over the english crown sometime in late 1600’s. Presumably this is documented. The english parliament was subsequently dissolved in 1707. That would mean royal sovereignty would need to be delegated again to the new combined parliament after Union.
If there is no legal document to this effect then english sovereignty must still rest with the Monarch.
Do you know if such a document exists?
@Robert Peffers says: 13 February, 2018 at 2:17 pm:
Whoops! Sorry! My wee dog just sent that post by jumping up and nudging my arm. I’ll start again.
The facts are indeed well documented but here’s a brief historic round up for you.
The Holy Roman Se, (The Pope), was head of all Christendom, (mostly Europe), and there was then no Protestant churches. So as far as Christendom was concerned God was the top of the hierarchy i.e. the top King and the Pope was a Prince of God on Earth and the international authority.
Sovereignty was originally thought of as God’s choice of who was monarch in any kingdom by selecting who was born from a royal womb. This is still the legal view in England as every Westminster MP, every devolved parliament’s member and every councillor must pledge allegiance to God and the Queen of taking office.
That also includes Civil Servants, the Armed Forces and the police and Security services and even extends to the Westminster representative in Commonwealth countries.
In any case, in the beginning, the Rule of Law in Christendom was, “The Divine Right of Kings”, (to rule in God’s name). So, in relation to Britain, – King Edward I issued, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, in 1284 and thus annexed Wales as Kingdom of England.
Then The Holy Roman Se got a bit upset with the way the Christian Church was going among the Celts in Ireland and ordered that the King of the Kingdom of England should be made Lord of Ireland. Later the English monarchy forced the Irish Parliament to pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, in 1542 and thus also annexed Ireland as part of the Kingdom of England.
Thus, in 1603, when James VI of Scotland inherited the crown of The Kingdom of England he not only became sovereign of England but of Ireland and Wales too. However there was a big legal snag. The Rule of law in the Kingdom of England was then still the Divine Right of Kings and thus James VI of Scots, (not of Scotland), was a sovereign monarch of the countries of England, Wales and Ireland but, in 1603, Scotland was still an independent kingdom but the rule of law in Scotland had not been the Divine Right of Kings since the Holy Roman Se had accepted the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320, and that the people, not the monarchy, were legally sovereign. So James, and who could blame him, packed up his Scottish Court were he was not sovereign and moved to London where he was. He spent the rest of his reign trying to form a United Kingdom but there really was no, as English history claims, Union of the Crowns in 1603. Excepting, that is, for James personally.
Which was why the English engineered a Treaty of Union in 1706/7 but were still murdering the Scots at Culloden in 1745 almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed.
Anyway, back to the history, In 1688 the English Parliament rebelled against their rightful monarch who by this time was James II of England and James VII of Scots but because Scotland was still independent that did not change the legal monarch of Scotland and even if English history calls the resultant conflicts as the Jacobite Rebellion the truth is that it was the English parliamentarians who were the rebels for you cannot rebel against a monarch not your own. Furthermore, as James I & VI was not sovereign he had no legal right to give away the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland. After all Britain was still part of Christendom who legally accepted that Scotland was independent.
So the English Parliament invited Mary of Orange to be their monarch but the lady refused their invite on the grounds that she would not allow her Husband, Billy, to become her consort. They then extended the invite and William & Mary became joint monarchs of England but, in 1688 Scotland was still independent.
Now we get to the never mentioned real history. The English Kingdom had established, (stolen), several colonies from the native populations and Westminster had passed several Acts called, “The English Navigation Acts”. These made it illegal for anyone to trade with the English colonies unless they did so with English Mercantile Marine, or at least if in their own ships they had to use an English Crew. These were English Merchants and thus not only did they control the import prices but the export prices too. It led to England fighting wars against many European nations but contributed towards the eventual American War of Independence and massive national debts for the English/Crown/Parliament and they applied these acts to Scotland.
To the English rescue came the London Scot, William Paterson who set up a subscription scheme to bail out the English Parliament and this led to a Royal Charter for The private company, “The Guvnor & Company of the Bank of England”.
In 1706/7 that same London Scot was in Edinburgh setting up the disastrous Darien Expedition that bankrupted the Scottish landowners who were also the parliamentarians. He was aided and abetted by the English author and undercover agent, Daniel Defoe and both men were employed by Sir Robert Harley, the English Spymaster.
So now you have the jist of the Treaty of Union and it was, in anyone’s language a real criminal confidence trick.
Go read Article 19 of the Treaty of Union and it states that both Scottish & English law will remain forever independent and under Scots law the people are legally sovereign so just where does Westminster get its assumed sovereignty over Scotland from?
That’s as brief as I can make it and there are many points left unexplained.
@ Brian Doonthetoon says: “Hi Mr Peffers.
You seem to be conflating yesindyref2 (long time commenter) and Indy2 (newbie).”
Thanks BDTT, seems to happen!
Irony is someone complaining about people being abusive and lashing out indiscriminately in all directions, and then being abusive and lashing out indiscriminately in all directions.
Robert Peffers @ 3:36pm 13Feb
Thanks for your reply. I followed all that and entirely agree with your history. However my question was actually about the ‘delegation of english sovereignty’ not scots.
As you correctly point out english sovereignty was delegated to the then english parliament in 1688.
That parliament was formally dissolved in 1707. At this exact moment then ‘english sovereignty’ would autoatically be legally transferred back to the sovereign as the delegate was no longer in existence.
Therefore for ‘english sovereignty’ to be delegated to the new parliament of ‘Great Britain …’ after the Acts of Union would require a new document stating that the Monarch was now delegating their sovereignty to this newly constituted parliament.
It is that document that I was on about for if it does not exist in some form then IMHO the ‘Great Britain…’ parliament has no sovereign authority.
Now here’s a thing. Just quickly checking through the Acts of Union and here’s Provision XVIII:
link to legislation.gov.uk
“That the Laws concerning Regulation of Trade, Customs and such Excises to which Scotland is by virtue of this Treaty to be lyable be the same in Scotland from and after the Union as in England and that all other Lawes in use within the Kingdom of Scotland do after the Union and notwithstanding thereof remain in the same force as before (except such as are contrary to or inconsistent with this Treaty) but alterable by the Parliament of Great Britain With this difference betwixt the Laws concerning publick Right, Policy and Civil Government and those which concern private Right That the Laws which concern publick Right Policy and Civil Government may be made the same throughout the whole United Kingdom but that no alteration be made in Laws which concern private Right except for evident utility of the subjects within Scotland.” (my bold)
“(except such as are contrary to or inconsistent with this Treaty)”
So, since the Acts specifically refer to the Treaty, referred to in the introduction of the Act as “Act Ratifying and Approving the Treaty of Union of the Two Kingdoms of SCOTLAND and ENGLAND”
then the Treaty of Union is NOT extinct as a Treaty, contrary to the views of Crawford and Boyle in their infamous Annex A, as Provision XVIII specifically admits to an over-ride in the Treaty itself. GTRUY!
Annex A page 75:
link to gov.uk
“(b) Whether the Treaty of Union sounds in international law
40. Despite its name, it is not obvious that the Treaty of Union did and does sound as a treaty in international law. Certainly there was a negotiation between England and Scotland, and it was subsequently referred to as a ‘treaty’ in both Acts of Union. But the Scottish Parliament, in enacting the Scottish Act of Union, then unilaterally amended its provisions. It is therefore unlikely that it constituted a treaty in itself. ”
It did seem very important to Crawford & Boyle to downgrad the Treaty of Union into non-existence, probably because that made the UK the total successor, and secession the only exit possible by Scotland, with the rUK being the continuing UK.
Well no, revoke the treaty and the Untied Kingdom CEASES TO EXIST.
Yesindyref2 @ 10:14pm
A quite interesting read. It would appear that this is probably the source of Fluffy’s claim that Scotland was extinguished by the Act of Union and england claimed the new title of Great Britain…etc and subsumed Scotland.
This has never been tested in the domestic or international courts so its all to play for.