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Wings Over Scotland

Here it comes again

Posted on January 02, 2017 by

It might only be the 2nd of January, but it’s already pretty clear what we should expect from Scottish politics and the Scottish media in 2017.

Yesterday saw an absurdly petty response from Scottish Labour to the SNP’s “baby box” initiative, sourly carping at a dirt-cheap measure with a proven record of reducing infant mortality and providing vital help to the poor.

Today’s Herald, meanwhile, leads on a meaningless story about people being opposed to having a second independence referendum in 2017 – something nobody has proposed and which has no prospect of happening barring wildly unforseeable events.


But compared to the inside, that’s hard news.

The paper also blares a dramatic headline about Orkney, which on inspection of the text collapses rapidly from an imminent secessionist uprising to “13 councillors decide to have a bit of a think about maybe asking for some extra devolution”.


A couple of pages later there’s David Torrance’s latest petulant sulk masquerading as an opinion column, but the most revealing thing is a smaller sidebar on page 6.


We suppose we should be at least a little bit surprised that Labour’s only Scottish MP is actually having a swipe at the Tories for a change (although he does naturally still turn it to “SNP BAD” near the end). But it was the arithmetic that caught our eye.

A few days ago we highlighted the press picking up a wildly exaggerated claim from Murray’s colleague Iain Gray MSP, in which an (alleged) rise of 66% was described as “almost doubling”. And alert readers will have noticed that under the “£2bn” headline in today’s Herald are numbers which in fact add up to exactly £1.5bn, making the headline a whopping 33% exaggeration.

The text attempts to explain this away by noting that the figures “do not account for inflation”. But inflation currently stands at just 0.9%, and is falling. Spread across the five-year period used by Labour, current inflation would only bump it up to £1.54bn.

The size of that casual, offhand “rounding up”, at £460m, is just under 77 times the annual cost of the Scottish Government’s baby box scheme Labour spent yesterday complaining about (and which demented Unionists on social media managed to contort into a sinister and “dangerous” piece of quasi-fascist infant-indoctrinating).



It already seems plain that Scottish Labour intends to make 2017 a year of massively inflating figures to make them sound dramatically worse – aided by a press which intends to print those exaggerations as headlines without question – while sniping bitterly at even the most unequivocally positive of policies.

We’re sure it’ll work splendidly for them at the polls, just as it’s been doing for the last few years. But readers with high blood pressure might be advised to avoid the Scottish media even more diligently than usual for the next 363 days.

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    1. 02 01 17 11:56

      Here it comes again | speymouth

    467 to “Here it comes again”

    1. defo says:

      Sounds great.
      More please, but with added extra BS, and a side helping of post truth Ruthies.

    2. Meg merrilees says:

      Couldn’t agree more Rev.
      A quick online journey round the newspapers today has revealed an above average amount of negative stories, which for Scottish press is an already high total.

      Must be their New Year’s Resolution.

      Keep debunking the lies!

    3. Paul Allen says:

      Do we know roughly what total household incomes are?

    4. Cuilean says:

      My new year resolutions: watch the least amount of BBC Scotland news as possible; read more online news blogs like this one.

      There are no shortage of accurate news blog sites out there.

      Thank God. Thank Stu.

      Lovely day in Ardrossan, Spanner.

    5. Legerwood says:

      Not sure where the 0.9% inflation figure comes from.

      CPI inflation in November was 1.2%. And RPI inflation in November was 2.2%. Both figures are up compared to October’s figures.

    6. Paul Allen says:

      Actually, we don’t need that. We probably need the total amounts of the benefits that are being referred to, although I’m confused how a freeze in benefits can lead to a reduction in income if it hasn’t yet allowed for inflation.

    7. One_Scot says:

      Here’s the thing, it will never change, and it is only going to get worse. The only way it is going to stop is if we stop it.

      I don’t know about anyone else, but I for one have had enough, and the thought of my children and their children being subjected to this unionist corruption all their days, does not really appeal to me.

      We need to stand up and say once and for all, enough is enough, we deserve better than this, Scotland deserves better than this.

    8. HandandShrimp says:

      The first thing I noticed above was Murray having a go at May and Davidson. It seems like an eternity since that happened. However, I have no confidence that it is a turning point. The compulsion to SNPbaaaad is overwhelming for what remains of SLab. They could not stop even if their political lives depended upon it….which is unfortunate for them….

      Mr Spanner is a screwdriver short of a full tool box. However, he is very easy to laugh off 🙂

    9. The Man in the Jar says:

      Im looking forward to the Yoon apoplexy when the Queensferry Crossing opens. I wonder what contortions they will go through to try and get an SNP Bad angle on it. Whatever they come up with its bound to be good for a chuckle or two.

    10. Dorothy Devine says:

      I don’t know how much more of this crap I can take.

      The disgusting Scottish media has me incensed and I am a relatively calm , law abiding citizen – never yet having slugged anyone in my life.

      But what of the more volatile ? Those to whom violence can be an answer ? Is that what the media is working towards so that arrests and faux outrage can make the headlines ?

      The media and their puppet masters should hang their heads in shame.

      The proud boast of being one of the oldest ,wisest(?) newspapers in the world hangs round the neck of the shrivelled , spiteful Herald like a noose.

    11. Phillip Siviter says:

      Paul, the average household income for Scotland for 2014 (which is the latest figure available is £23,000 per annum (source

    12. Brian Powell says:

      The sun is shining on the 2nd of January but it’s pishing in their hearts.

      There must be a time when Unionists see all will be OK again, the SNP will be defeated and ‘they’ will be back in charge. But with only a limited control of income tax I can’t work out how ‘they’ will put right everything they say is wrong with what the SNP SG is doing, after all Labour is in control of Wales and we can see they can’t hack it.

      The second problem for Unionists: first the Labour Unionists, they are a poor third in Scotland, not likely to regain power, and there is a Tory Government in Westminster ( again Wales has shown no matter how much crawling to the West Gov they do they don’t get privileges), so Scotland will be worse off, then the Tory Unionists want to do in Scotland what the UK Tories do, and they can’t expect to much extra help from Westminster while Scotland is left of centre.

    13. Les Wilson says:

      Well fake news is rampant worldwide, only natural that desperate Unionists would take up the idea.
      After all, what else do they have.

      Apparently people believe false news from trusted sources.
      On that basis we have no problem in thinking who is going to believe them?

    14. Brian Powell says:

      I was speaking to a friend who confronted Alan Cochrane at the SNP Conference, asking him why he didn’t write the truth.

      Whether he meant it or not, A Cochrane said he wrote what his readers wanted to hear. When asked was this the same for the Editor, he said yes.

    15. Macart says:

      Posted this on the last thread, but probably more appropriate here.

      Yep, caught both Herald headlines this morning and they are being awfy naughty, not to mention disingenuous with their readership.

      On Shetland? Its the same rinse and repeat divisive bullshit we saw during the indyref. All the folk in the islands are looking for is greater self determination on their own patch with whichever government they have to deal with. That’s a pretty good aim IMO and worth their time exploring. I know who their likely to get more traction with, as do we all and its not those caring sharing, cuddly types down in W1.

      So folk going off half cocked on the issue need to remember who benefits from this kind of shit stirring by the meeja. The Libdems and their chaintuggers in Westminster would only be too delighted at any anger shown in the wrong direction. Remember who the real enemy is and also remember that a certain self serving, cowardly fibber is still their MP.

      On the poll? Doesn’t matter what it says, or what the Herald says. It seems fairly certain there WILL be an indyref and not because its what we want, but because its democratically and constitutionally NECESSARY and required of the Scottish Government.

      We’ve had two referendums delivering two sets of instructions to our government. Those instructions are completely at democratic and constitutional odds with one another. That would be the instructions given by the electorate y’know. Its the job of government to seek a final resolution to the conflicting instructions one way or another.

      Now, much to their credit, they’ve done as bid by the public every step of the way since 2014 and in the wake of the Brexit vote they have attempted to find a solution which would honour both votes and retain both unions. How and ever, they won’t sacrifice the well being of the Scottish population to satisfy right wing arrogant, ignorant isolationists sitting on their arses in W1. Push comes to shove and Westminster doesn’t accept the federal route proposed and presented by the SGs findings,then that question WILL need to be asked and resolved.

      The choice will have been made by wilful, arrogant and heedless Westminster government, NOT the Scottish Government.

      In short, I reckon we’re pretty much beyond the need for polling on should we or shouldn’t we have a referendum. Its going to be a necessity to settle a question and a situation not of our making.

      On the unchallenged arithmetic? As the Rev points out, this form of journalism and politics has worked out so wonderfully well for the establishment in recent years. Very much a case of same shit, different day.

    16. Muscleguy says:

      This is why we employ you to read this stuff Rev, so we don’t have to.

    17. Ian McCubbin says:

      The longer this kind of fiction goes on the less impact it will have. Keep doing your work rev.
      At some point the country will be independent from this propoganda.

    18. Jack Murphy says:

      The Herald is owned by the Newsquest Media Group.

      “Welcome to Newsquest.
      We are a media company with a difference.
      We are committed to bringing a voice to your region.” [sic]
      “We invest in a passionate team of journalists,who proudly serve their communities with authoritative news that our readers trust.————–”

    19. woosie says:

      This Spanner guy actually says “£6m investment in infant health is pointless”. That’ll be £6m more than yoons are doing across the rest of englandshire.

      The Herald is a yoon rag. The SH purports to be on indy side, but yesterday’s edition again lets yoons get their lies in without question. Might stop it. I know the National isn’t perfect, ( no racing cards and the sudoku is not solveable by logic )and is owned by the Herald, so is simply profiting from a niche market which it has to itself, but it’s the only paper in Scotland to give information other papers won’t air.

    20. The only significant fact in that poll is that support for independence remains at 46% despite two years of full on continuous assault on the issue and no independence campaign.

      In simple terms one person in twenty turns the vote around and one in ten gives a comfortable independence majority.

    21. Iain says:

      I predict a busy year for Alex Bell – props to him for dispassionately* identifying the market and carving out a place in it. Maybe that’s why Torrance seems to be in a permanent state of huffy prolapse as he sees his ‘go to’ status being chipped away.


    22. MJT says:

      Ahh…Jan 2 Hallo…back to normal, pages of pish fae 4th rate scribes in 5th rate papers. Hallo Jockland.

      Every day, just before getting in the shower, i bang my scone aff the walls a good half dozen times just to kill the requisite amount of brain cells and create enough real pain to continue with the rest of the day. Thrice weekly I mix salt and lime juice and grit and take an eye bath so I can weep silently in the corner thus reducing the chances of an afternoon greet in public. Cannae huv that.

      I don’t know how much of a guid kicking this nation needs before some folks swing from No to Yes. Budget Cuts, Brexit, Noo Nukes, continued demonisation of the poor and infirm, an intentionally perplexing benefits system designed to add shame and befuddlement and mental hurt, a shite fitbaw team, gash media, gash journalists, doom and gloom, nae film industry, pish on the radio, the great Scots larder being mostly kept fae our luscious longing lips.

      And yet…we’re fuckin brilliant, we are, I know we are. I see it all the time on the street. We’re funny, smert, canny, caring. But kinda feart an aw. Or confused. Are we, the great and guid and no so guid of the indy movement doin something wrong? My guts say aye, but that could just be yesterdays, prawns and salmon and steak and associated veg doing their thing. Gimme a wall, gimme a wall. Thud.

    23. handclapping says:

      Indyref2 in 2017. Yoons don’t want indyref whenever, Cybernats know we are not yet ready. Stupid question == Herald headline.

      Some things to ready in 2017. Can we cover the country and how quickly? Have we an answer to the currency? Who will lead for Yes? Can we lay the lie of GERS? So, plenty to do while we watch the Westminster Brexit train crash

    24. Bob Mack says:

      When your opponent starts to lead with utterly irrational statements then you know you are winning. Independence offers a future, whilst all the media can offer is trying to turn clearly positive actions into something bad.

      They will become ever more absurd and have to create greater lies from smaller things. It is what we are witnessing now. To them it seems reasonable, but to everyone listening it is ridiculous.

      Keep laughing at them ,as per the baby box story on twitter and in retaliation they will stoop to greater depths of absurdity. They end up destroying their own case.

    25. brewsed says:

      The meeja do appear to have been on the coolaid over the weekend. While it is somewhat dispiriting, the full on negativity shows the meeja is failing – failing to win over hearts and minds, failing to reduce 45% to a lower figure, failing to depress the 45% and failing to halt the decline in readership. Along with SNPBad articles noted in the hootsman and the horrid, the record had some nonsense bigging up the stRuth Davidson party.

      Oh well. Tick tock. Another year rolls on.

      But a guid new year to all Wingers.

      (now to try and see if this works on my new tablet thing – careful with spanners please)

    26. F Molla says:

      Scots are also failing to claim £2 billion in welfare payments if media figures are to be believed – how does that fit with the £2 billion/£1.54 billion cuts?

    27. Yerkitbreeks says:

      My only reaction to criticism of the Baby Box is sadness – much like the one to the minimum pricing of alcohol.

    28. Johnny says:

      As the Rev says, it is unlikely there will be another indyref this year.

      The other reason the polling story matters not a jot (and nor, to some degree, does polling on the question of holding one generally) is that the government were elected on a manifesto of having another referendum in the event of ‘material change’ less than one year ago.

      So, they have every reason to see whether the public agrees that the ‘material change’ has been so significant that a majority now favour independence, whether the Herald is pleased about the question being asked or not.

    29. Capella says:

      It’s very similar to the tactics used by the white elite press in South American countries. The object is to counter the political success of left wing leaders who promise to nationalise strategic industries dominated by US corporations.

      Smear, demonisation, dire warnings from “think tanks”, skewed polls, damaging the economy, false flag ops etc. etc. Unfortunately, if that doesn’t work the next step is false accusations and court proceedings which drag on for months.

      The wonder is how resilient a large proportion of Scottish people are. Access to the internet seems to be the main reason with sites such as WoS doing a great job of countering the propaganda.

    30. Valerie says:

      MJT @ 11.45. Great post, sums up where I am too.

      Yesterday’s disgraceful performance by yoons on the baby box initiative was a new low, and I SINCERELY hope one of our Indy writers does it justice, and its published far and wide.

      Just when you think Slab have hit bottom in their carping, they dredge new depths. The baby box doesn’t contain info on breast feeding, was their contribution. Vile and unintelligent.

      Just wait until Brexit is biting, and food prices are going up, against the back drop of these Benefit cuts.

      The only growth industry in this country is food banks.

    31. Gail Hughes says:

      I am old enough to remember the days when Labour fought tooth and nail to preserve the principle of universal benefits and oppose means testing. It used to be that means testing was seen as one of the biggest obstacles to fairness and social justice. Now Labour see means testing as a policy with which to target the votes of tory supporting Hardworking Taxpayers™.

    32. We all know who has suddenly become concerned about Orkney and Shetland come referendums and elections. They don’t mind Scotland being ripped off at all. Now their colonists in Dumfries and Galloway want o break away from an Independent Scotland.

      Before anyone tries the “racism” card. The wort offenders are North Brit genuflecting Brit Nats. There are some Great people in the “English for Scots Independence. The best.

      Just watched a debate on the “Wright Show” on the North South Divide. Needless to say they were discussing English regions and not how much worse the “infrastructure”, etc goes once they cross the Motorway into darkness and dual carriageways with approach roads, etc.

    33. Scott says:

      A certain Ramsay Jones writing in North Britain P&J today are giving us a right bashing one of his quotes is that even if BBC do make an occasional mistake it should keep on doing what it does and not get bullied by us bad cybernats.worth a read if only for a laugh.
      He is a right tory I don’t know how to do links,sorry.

    34. liz says:

      Yesterday I got really furious on twitter with the negative comments on the baby boxes.

      We had some SLAB non-entity trying to get noticed being ‘concerned’over the lack of breast feeding information in the box and getting backed up by her male SPAD.
      Some other eejits saying it should be means tested, should only be available to young mums, blah, blah, blah.

      These folk have ice in their hearts & porridge for brains.
      As for the whoever was on Spanner duty yesterday, it must have been one of the less intelligent ones; the rest on holiday?

      Moaning, groaning and complaining about £6 million getting spent on newborns. Why not just give it in tax breaks.

      Today I will ignore the lot of them, let then wallow in their own selfishness and misery.

    35. Kevin says:

      “Im looking forward to the Yoon apoplexy when the Queensferry Crossing opens”..
      That bridge stands as a powerful and colossal symbol of successful SNP governance and, by dint of, the neglect and wastefulness of previous Scottish Unionism. I bet they already hate our bridge?

    36. Beor says:

      The year is but two days old (well it is down here) and the desperation of rags like Herald, Hootsmon and the Record continues apace. They are beyond hope.

      One major battle in my opinion is to evict a maximum of BLiS cooncilors in May. The continued presence of significant numbers of the buggers in council chambers is a major financial, political and organisational resource for the remnants of BLiS. Erode that and a major battle will have been won.

      I’d love to see a Yes coalition conduct a coordinated assault on BLiS’ other remaining leg – the STUC and individual branches of trades unions in Scotland – not much happening on that front it would seem. If someone can contradict me there I’d be more than happy.

    37. shug says:

      Have to thank the BBC for giving minimal cover to the Edinburgh hogmanay and focusing on London – Good to see the new and refreshing Donaldo is on the case

      Also enjoyed listening to Edwina curry on radio Scotland at 1.00am talking about the English education system

      Such a refreshing change from new year shows and Scottish music
      And now the Herald filling column inches with such insightful and clearly thought arguments in favour of the union.

      To all employees in the Herald and BBC – redundancy beckons and Scotland watches and listens in disbelief.

    38. Big Jock says:

      How dare the Scottish government do good things. This is just so they can improve things. That is just political it’s not fair.

    39. Proud Cybernat says:

      And the rise in the printed colonial media hyperbole (aka pish) is matched only with an almost identical fall in its ever dwindling readership.

      Quelle surprise.

      Screaming their lies even louder won’t bring back a single reader. Long may they continue.

    40. Auld Rock says:

      Have you noticed among all the crap just how little is mentioned about the fact that London Ambulance computer crashed for over 5hrs on Hogmany. Now if that had been the Scottish Ambulance Servive…………………………., need I fill-in?

      Auld Rock

    41. Walter Scott says:

      Like Obama being stymied by the Alt Right, at every turn the SNP will be misrepresented & shrieked at by the undemocratic forces of the scottish press cheered on by Davidson, Dugdale and Rennie. In Sweden, where the practice of giving the basics of what a baby requires is seen by the pathetic Dugdale as progressive, yet in Scotland it’s seen as propaganda.

    42. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 2 January, 2017 at 11:13 am:

      ” … Mr Spanner is a screwdriver short of a full tool box.”

      Spanner, (I won’t dignify him/her/it as Mr.), may well be a spanner.

      If so, I would venture to say that the better description would be, “A tool”, but as a spanner it is what we in the ship building/repair industry would have described as, “A Clydebank spanner”. i.e. a bloody great big sledge hammer.

    43. R-type Grunt says:

      @ Dorothy Devine,

      That is precisely their game. They are attempting to incite violence on our side. Ulsterisation is still happening and we’re allowing it to.

    44. stewartb says:

      Kevin @ 12.24pm

      “That bridge stands as a powerful and colossal symbol of successful SNP governance and, by dint of, the neglect and wastefulness of previous Scottish Unionism.”

      With the SG having been successful in getting the bridge built, I just hope it now has the ability to see it opened without needing the royal seal of approval for the ceremony!

    45. Gary45% says:

      Regarding Orkney and Shetland, it may be just a wee bit of sabre rattling, because the ghost of Grimond is finally disappearing into the ether.
      More and more Orcadians are realising how useless their politicians/councillors are/have been.
      The locals do actually notice LIAR Carbuncle, Scott and McArthur do not live in fuel poverty like some of the islanders, “their tea is oot” as the old saying goes.
      As WoS says,
      TICK TOCK.
      Surprised Torrance has crawled out from his ” pis* stained hibernation carpet” spouting his usual guff as we are still in the middle of winter, then again it has been a mild one so far, “thanks to the SNP causing global warming all on their own”. SNP Baaad

      “An Elfy New Year”, that’s more like a headline from cockney gutter press “innit”
      2017 quality journalism??? “ah hae ma doots”

    46. galamcennalath says:

      The longer the colonial media goes on behaving like this, the more counter productive to their cause it becomes.

      We know what they think they are trying to achieve – spread doubt and despondency among waverers.

      However the daily whinging and contrived negativity just isn’t credible. With absence of anything positive or any real and valid criticism, it is bound to appear to more and more people to be what it is – bull shite propaganda. The doubts it will spread are just as like to be about their Union!

      And, for those who do see through it, it only reinforces the conclusions they have already come to about the Union and its agents. There is no case for the Union and all they can do is lie.

    47. Capella says:

      BBC has covered the Queensferry Crossing. They said in December:
      “The bridge was originally due to open this month – but is now scheduled to begin carrying vehicles from May.”

      So it’s LATE.

      And Neil Findlay says the workers are being underpaid. Nobody else agrees.

      So it is a BAD news story.

    48. K1 says:

      More ‘FOI request from Libdems’ make the headlines in Herald (can’t access the article itself as refuse to provide my email so they can make out they have ‘readership’) and Evening Times today too…Glasgow apparently has steep rise of incidents of teachers being ‘attacked’ by pupils, Tavish thinks it’s just awfully concerning. Which it is. But here’s the thing, this is happening UK wide and world wide, they will not do the comparisons and research to provide balanced reporting in any of these stories. It’s not even accurate to have this headline: ‘Glasgow teachers attacked more than 1,200 times in last three years’. When you read further down the article you find this:

      ‘However Glasgow City Council pointed out that recording procedures are not the same across every council and Glasgow records both physical and verbal attacks.’

      And a wee bit further on this:

      ‘A spokeswoman for Glasgow City Council said: “We have changed and modernised how we record all incidents of physical and verbal abuse in our schools. This, in part, helps explain the steep rise in figures presented to the Lib Dems in response to their FOI.’

      But that just won’t make a ‘headline’ and a good yarn about how fucking awful it is in ‘Scottish’ schools and especially big bad Glasgow schools. Scotland’s a shit heap with our terrible awful children kicking the fuck oot our nice teachers. Not.

      Exactly what are the LIbdems for?

    49. Effijy says:

      I had look at Sanjeev Kohli’s bit of BBC Westminster propaganda just before the Bells, Whas like us.

      He covered the many decades where Scots are stereo typed as aggressive, drunken losers on both TV and the Movies.

      No shortage of clips to try and convince us that we fit the bill, and that we should never seek the confidence to think ourselves as equal to the English Masters.

      I didn’t enjoy the show but stuck with it, just in case they moved on the mention the great Scots in Literature, Science, Medicine, and sports, but No.

      This was just another confirmation that we are shite and we should sit in our wee made in England box, quietly.

    50. politicaiicious says:

      Roll on the Council elections in May – which WILL be the final nail in the Unionist coffin within Scotland…
      Score will then be 3-0. :))))
      Let’s do this.

    51. iain says:

      The declining dead tree newspapers must know that trust lost is never regained. The bbc and other msm can’t seem to look at the big picture, that Scottish independence is inevitable and their influence declines with every lie they tell.
      Since the referendum people have had their eyes opened to msm lies over the whole news and ether do not watch, listen, or read any of their poison.
      The people of Scotland have had their eyes opened and will never go back to voting in the bunch of useless troughers that used to represent us.
      The dead tree media know that as their ageing readership declines a online unimportant future awaits.
      The people of Scotland deserve a better media, and will have one as the old bum media dies.

    52. K1 says:

      Here’s a wee good news story about Glasgow, interesting that no Herald or Evening Times is even carrying this?

      The meadows in the the west end of Glasgow has been ‘saved’ after a 5 year battle against developers and GCC. The Guardian carries it. Funny how this success which involved SG making the decision finally in favour or retaining this space for residents et al after wide consultation doesn’t even register in so called leading Scottish/local papers eh?

    53. David Mills says:

      Observations of a spanner

      His self approved elevation is remarkable a “Sir” no less now at that rate he’ll be claiming monarch status before current encubent has relinquish the position.
      Oh and his rhetoric is now so rabid as to pass as a parade of unionist trolling.

    54. call me dave says:

      Auntie shortbread, in the news where we are, saying the train fares rise coming in and that good old ‘Scottish’labour wanted a fares freeze… shortbread doesn’t say what the rise is at all even as a %. (It’s 1.9% in N. Britain)

      Leaving the listener/viewer to assume that it’s the same 2.3% average as stated by the previous news where they are darn Sarf.

      Oh! I read in a discarded daily express in the cafe this morning that the Scottish ambulance service is taking 43 seconds longer per patient waiting to unload at the hospital than last year. 🙁

      SNAFU in Scotland story continues.

    55. Beor says:

      Can I just take this opportunity to say hi to handandshrimp, muscleguy, and others who have hung around CiF on the Guardian over the past decade?

      Now feart of Stu’s hammers – despite para breaks!

      @muscleguy – Just spent a week in the Bay of Islands – Kia ora!

    56. Clootie says:

      Yoon media…Yawn!
      The same stories circulated not only between each other but also from year to year.

      Everything…except the truth!

      A Handful of people control the (mis)information blasted out daily and they all owe allegiance to another nation to ensure some reward from someone further up the food chain. Enhance their career OR their salary OR their chances of becoming a Lord/Dame OR acceptance by the elite OR…the list is endless as Whitehall has always adapted the most suitable bribe for the character of the sycophant. In many cases a simple pat on the head or a second hand statement can be enough…”the Queen was pleased..” / “…The Prime minister was delighted”

      The one guarantee is that their efforts for the union will not enhance the life of any citizen of Scotland…except them.

      A better nation is possible by placing a simple X in a box.
      Manage or be managed.

    57. galamcennalath says:

      O/T. Brexit is coming, and we need to ensure we don’t get dragged over the cliff edge.

      Some other folks are making surprising plans ….
      “UK Jews seeking Portuguese citizenship surged 80-fold after Brexit”

    58. Robert Kerr says:

      I watched BBC coverage of New Year, both Channels even thanks to modern technology!

      My good lady wondered why we still have J Bird! I told her she is the best they’ve got! All the SNP/Indie staff have been culled. Then we had an English BBC weather woman in Edinburgh. Ohh dear Donalda how sad that she sampled the black bun and described it as”yummy”. I lost it then and said “F…ing yummy!” Must do better Donalda!

      BBC Alba was very good as usual but lacks speedy translation for the many viewers who don’t have the Gaelic. I was impressed with the symbolism in the venue choice. The Great Hall of Stirling Castle and wondered what the young Mary Stuart would have made of the ceilidh there!

      Have a Guid New Year everyone. Even the stalwarts in 77th brigade!

    59. Thepnr says:


      Regarding the Evening Times article about teacher assaults they can’t even get the same numbers as those in the Herald.

      From your link:

      All but three councils recorded attacks with Glasgow, home to the most schools and the largest pupil population, recording the highest number in each of the three years.
      In the last full year, 2016, there were 842 recorded in the city.
      In Edinburgh in 2015/16 there were 89 recorded, 220 in Aberdeen and 288 in Dundee.

      However in the Herald:

      Schools in Glasgow account for almost half of all attacks this year so far – 1,218.
      Over the same period, however, Edinburgh has experienced just 25 incidents.

      Those figures have a whiff of the unbelievable about them, only 25 in Edinburgh but 1218 in Glasgow! Come on, are we comparing apples with apples here? Doesn’t look like it to me.

      Can’t archive the full article but the Glasgow and Edinburgh numbers from the Herald are there.

    60. Lochside says:

      Naturally the colonial media hegemony is permanently geared up to undermine Scots confidence and self belief at every turn. It’s what their masters and State manipulators insist on.These propaganda sheets’ financial and business success are now subordinate to the UK State’s determination to hold us fast. England’s survival depends on it.

      But if there are around 30% of our population holding on to the lie of the Union..what can be done to seriously wake them from their UJ trance state? For a start the fabrication known appropriately as GERS. Why is the SG not laying down a simple but thorough rebuttal of this tory originated distortion?
      Why not a list of the theft of Scottish resources? such as the 6000 sq miles of maritime coastline?..the oil?…the exports counted as Uk etc. etc.

      During the REF I approached a BT stall in Glasgow’s West End (yes one actually existed). The two men running it turned out to be one a ‘No Surrender’ Bigot, and the other seemed more reasonable at first, but became ever more defensive as I questioned what actually was the reality of better together?

      In the end, as to be expected, as we were not agreeing on very much, I asked them about the McCrone report?..they thought it was about education…then the 6000 sq. miles of Scottish territorial water?..they actually both denied that it could ever have happened. At that point I told them to look it up. The encounter ended.
      The point is:there are hundreds of thousands of Scots who know nothing of these facts. They rely on the BBC/STV and the colonial rags who will never tell them this truth. The SG should send this information out to every household. And if they won’t do it, then the revitalised YES movement must…and soon.

    61. Thepnr says:


      Don’t know if you are aware but you can access all the articles in the Herald without registering if you use a browser “incognito window” such as Chrome has.

      So if you find a link to an article you want to read all of, right click the link and choose open in incognito window.

    62. Beor says:


      This is probably not the the thread to discuss MT’s “cliff edge” but I really don’t think there is a wide understanding of what that cliff edge looks like.

      Forget Third World War BoJo crap. It is, unfortunately relatively simple:

      The best trade deal for the U.K. Is membership of the single market. As an EU member state, UK companies can operate in the EU as if they were in the U.K. This represents 44%+ of UK exports. The advantage has little to do with tariffs (a UKOK/UKIP obsession) but more to do with the absence of regulatory barriers – you can sell in Hamilton, Hull or Hamburg as if you were in the same country – no need for regulatory equivalence certification, no need for registration or legal incorporation no single market then that all comes back.

      In addition, the EU has trade deals with most of the planet’s major markets. Leave the Customs Union – that all needs to be re-negotiated. But there is a catch. Every single trade agreement that the EU has, contains a nice little clause which means that if the country concerned gives a better market access deal to a “third country” (which the UK will be when it leaves the Customs Union) then the EU will automatically benifit from that enhanced access.

      So if the UK gets a better deal with, say South Korea than currently exists between the EU and Korea under the EU-South Korea FTA then the EU will automatically benefit. So the UK will do the heavy lifting for German exporters – assuming it gets a better deal ( not automatic btw).

      I could go on but I won’t bore the brothers – I have worked as a negotiator and official for the EU for 25 years so obviously I know bugger all about all this (according to a Michael Gove anyway). The UK is screwed big time in the case of “hard Brexit” .

      PS – I was the chief correspondent on the Free Movement of Goods for the enlargement negotiations so – I know fuck all about all this

    63. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Kerr says:

      BBC Alba was very good as usual but lacks speedy translation for the many viewers who don’t have the Gaelic.

      Indeed. There were times when the translator just gave up with what I assume was impromptu patter.

      … wondered what the young Mary Stuart would have made of the ceilidh there

      I said exactly the same to my wife.

      BBC Alba may be on a tight budget and most of us are lost without subtitles. However, it is thoroughly Scottish from Scotland. Shame the same ethos isn’t on other ‘Scottish’ channels.

    64. Alan says:

      I brought 2017 in watching BBC Scotland. It was half two in the morning before I believed it was new year.

    65. Giving Goose says:

      During chat with friend re recent “goings on” and several things came out of the discussion.

      Known No voters now deny voting No. It’s only a few but something has changed for them post Indyref. One thing is for sure; they are not proud BritNats. Anyone else come across this?

      We were discussing the recent news re Labour intensions about teaming up with the Tories to secure councils. The Unionists strategy is a strange one. They have created a single issue, 2 party system in Scotland. For those pissed off with Westminster there is only one party that presents an alternative and that’s the SNP. So the SNP as a strong force is a Unionist creation!

      The obsession of the Unionist view that “it’s our way and that’s it” without consideration of a 3rd way is simply killing Unionism. Give ’em enough rope but what a lack of vision. What incredibly stupid people.

      On the subject of the MSM propaganda war, it’s a fact that 50% of potential readership/viewers do not believe the MSM lies. Now that is either extremely bad marketing/commercial decision making or proof positive that the MSM simply operates purely as the propaganda arm of the London Establishment.

      Anyway, the Unionists have drawn a line in the sand beyond which they will not step and have created the very monster (in their eyes) that they wished to avoid – an ascendent Scottish Independence orientated political movement.

    66. Dorothy Devine says:

      R-typegrunt, you agree with me on this but are we really ‘allowing it to happen’?

      I’m at a loss as to how we can alter it and more and more aware of being ‘kettled’ into alternative media with the ever growing threat of government grabbing of the internet – so great is their fear.

    67. Thepnr says:

      The Courier have wheeled out Gordon Wilson again who apparently is telling Nicola Sturgeon yet again:

      to put any plans for a second vote on Scottish independence on hold “indefinitely”.

      Relentless and predictably boring!

    68. Thepnr says:

      Forgot the link, not that it’s worth reading.

    69. Undeadshuan says:


      Thanks for the insightful post on brexit and EU trade deals.

      I didnt realise that EU trade deals had that clause.

    70. Calum McKay says:

      The SNP need to contest figures or claims by their opponents, political and the media that don’t add up or are just lies.

      For too long the SNP have been of the option that they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t come forward to provided their view or highlight independent voices.

      In my view this is a mistake and the SNP need to use the press, otherwise the press will abuse the SNP. By press I exclude the likes of the express, mail, times and telegraph.

      Good new year to one and all who wants freedom, equality and social justice for their country!

    71. I know the way I go on about the Scottish gov., doing nothing to rebut all these lies may be tiresome but I really am at a loss to understand their attitude to all this ,, all we get is silence I mean never in their wildest dreams did the media think it would be this easy to lie to Scotland with absolutely no comeback from the people who could put a stop to it but for some reason are reluctant to do so ???

    72. Glamaig says:

      Robert Kerr says:
      2 January, 2017 at 1:53 pm
      I watched BBC coverage of New Year, both Channels even thanks to modern technology!

      My good lady wondered why we still have J Bird!

      My elderly aunt commented to me yesterday how poor the BBC Hogmanay coverage was and how little of it seemed to be Scottish compared to in the past… so I directed her to BBC Alba, and she said, yes she already watched it sometimes and liked the music programs, but never thought of watching Hogmanay. She doesnt like J Bird either.

      Even the elderly Tory and No voters are noticing the BBC’s little game of eroding our identity and our heritage and our pride in our country… and don’t like it.

    73. Marcia says:

      It will be interesting to see the circulation figures for these newspapers as at 31st December 2017, much reduced am I certain.

    74. Dr Jim says:

      If the SNP take the time to refute every lie, the media then draw even more attention to it by calling it a denial and keep hounding the subject attracting yet more attention thus creating the no smoke without fire story out of something if ignored fades away altogether

      Why would you want to answer a media that operates on the confirm or deny principle

      It’s such a contrast to watch Irish TV who talk their country up and celebrate their achievements, they don’t go in for adversarial interviewing
      When you compare the two countries approach it makes it glaringly obvious that Scotlands media (all of it) is a disgusting cesspit of Unionist bias without principles or honour and they’re not worth snot

      I’m sure Ruthie will try to keep them pumped up though as she feeds the Dud gale the releases she wants aired
      I don’t know why the three Unionist Parties just don’t get it over with and merge into the big Scottish Opposition Yoon party or SOY for short

      They’ve got the sauce for it (OK I’m off)

    75. Les Wilson says:

      I tried today to get a national in local Scotmid, brimming over with britnat press but no National.

      Have Scotmid now stopped selling them? I was in early but not a one. Curious.
      Anyone else have an issue with this in any other Scotmid today?

    76. K1 says:

      ‘So if you find a link to an article you want to read all of, right click the link and choose open in incognito window.’

      Thanks Thpnr, I couldn’t access it to read so wasn’t able to check the numbers, good spot! They are a richt shower of manipulative bastards, they merely utilise any numbers to fit the ‘Scotland Bad’ narrative…for that is what it truly is. We should emphasise this now, rather than ‘SNP bad’ this year, let’s call it what it really is. Hashtag: ‘Scotland Bad’

      After all it is us who live here who vote for them, are they trying to tell us that the SNP got to where they are without Us? We’re always doing so terrible compared to ‘what’ ‘who’ ‘when’, it doesn’t matter the sector/area of competence or none, Scotland is shite at everything, well let’s just turn that one to our advantage and call them out for their ‘Scotland Bad’ from here on in!

      I’ll certainly try the ‘incognito window’ in future, ta.

    77. Legerwood says:

      Blair Paterson @ 2.40 pm

      A few days ago someone posted a link to an interview or article by Alastair Campbell. One of the things that jumped out at me was what he said about the constant attacks Labour were getting from the right wing press. Their response to this struck me as relevant to the current situation the SNP finds itself in.

      Basically what Alastair Campbell did was go through each day’s press/news stories and prepare chapter and verse rebuttals giving full factual information where necessary and then fire them off to all the papers and news outlets. In other words they did not take it lying down.

      The SNP should be doing this as a matter of routine and possibly publishing the whole lot day and daily on their web site – the one that seems to need an overhaul. This might just breath new life into it as well as being an easily accessible source for rebuttal info.

    78. Ron Maclean says:

      @Blair Paterson 1440

      You’re not being tiresome, just realistic.

      It’s good that an early referendum is unlikely. Unionists have plenty time as they don’t even need to find new questions. A Yes campaign, separate from the SNP, will have to form before addressing and correcting the mistakes and failures of 2014.

      Hint: use the aviation industry as an exemplar in how to interpret, approach and correct failure.

      Only then can the real indyref2 campaign begin.

    79. galamcennalath says:

      Beor says:

      Every single trade agreement that the EU has, contains a nice little clause which means that if the country concerned gives a better market access deal to a “third country” then the EU will automatically benifit from that enhanced access.

      Now that is a very interesting revelation. So therefore the UK outside can never have a better deal than it would have had inside the EU. All the Leave rhetoric about better trade deals was ALSO lies!

      The best trade deal for the U.K. Is membership of the single market. ….. The UK is screwed big time in the case of “hard Brexit” .

      That’s certainly the way I see it. England voted to leave, OK it’s going to happen. All common sense dictates that remaining in the single market is the best way to move forward. However, the sub-fascist elements across England seem Hell bent on going out ‘hard’.

      In the light of what you say about deals, why ‘hard’ and why reinventing the deal wheel with no chance of improvements? All that is left as an excuse is blood and soil nationalism!

    80. Marie Clark says:

      @ Les Wilson 3.18.

      Hi Les, there are no National’s today as it’s a holiday. I was in the local shop this morning only to be told that was no National, hopefully get one tomorrow, or maybe not as it is still a holiday.

    81. Valerie says:

      @Les Wilson

      I tried a BP petrol station, and a Tesco in Cumbernauld, before noon – no National. Very odd. The National quite often ask to be told about unusual circs of not getting availability.

      Fascinating insight. I remember a winger (yesindyref 2???) posting a list of countries around the world, that the EU had trade agreements with, and it was quite astounding in its volume. I don’t think Brexiteers have a clue about the massive expertise built up on trade alone, and there isn’t a hope in hell in coming near that for the UK.

      But, as we know, they are sick of experts. Some of us are far more humble.

    82. Clive Scott says:

      “Man in the Jar” is wondering about yoon apoplexy when the new Forth Bridge is opened. I sincerely hope none of the House of Windsor benefit scroungers are involved in the opening ceremony. My suggestion would be the child of an asylum seeker to cut the ribbon. Redolent with symbolism for building a nation and would drive the yoonatics nuts.

    83. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Beor

      Many thanks for your input. This is exactly the type of information that we require. We need facts not story telling.

      WM does seem to live in an EU bubble with no resemblance to the hard-nosed day-to-day workings of the EU reality.

      The German POV is that the UK already has the top fully paid up membership that it will get. Anything after Art.50/Brexit will be second class and in direct competition to the 27 EU members. There’s no way that the EU will allow their trading partners to grant any favourable terms to the UK.

      UK industry, espec. services is going to get a very large dosis of reality served up from March onwards.

    84. Capella says:

      @ K1 – just watched Guy Standing’s presentation of Basic Income and it is excellent, as you say. Good question session afterwards too. There was some hope of it being piloted in Scotland which is interesting.

      Along with Prof Richard Wolff’s ideas about democratising the workplace with workers forming the Board of Directors to influence decision making, I think Basic Income is an excellent idea.

      Here’s the link again for anyone who missed it.

    85. Dan Huil says:

      Same for 2017 as was for 2016: boycott all britnat media.

    86. Tinto Chiel says:

      Effijy @1.11.

      Completely agree about Kohli’s Hogmanay programme. We were out visiting friends and it was on their TV. It was a litany of every possible Scottish stereotype, complete with smirking, snide Muriel “Wot! No sprinklers?” Gray and I found it thoroughly depressing. What a contrast to the BBC Alba programme of a while ago on Hamish Henderson, which was so uplifting. Don’t quite know how that one got through the net. Maybe they thought no-one would watch it there and they could point to it as an example of “balance”.

      I hadn’t seen BBC Shortbread for a long time but it was worse than I expected, scoring a full 10 on the Cringeometer.

      God knows what watching Vichy Vision every day must do to your brain.

    87. Dan Huil says:

      Re Herald poll. Apologies if this has been posted already:

    88. JLT says:

      But readers with high blood pressure might be advised to avoid the Scottish media even more diligently than usual for the next 363 days.

      Oh, I don’t know. From late March onwards, it could get a tad interesting. Theresa invokes Article 50, which is then followed by lots and lots of loud sounds of major flatulence emanating from within Westminster and the House of Lords due to ‘upset stomachs and great worry’.

      And Donald should be laying down his mark too on the world stage. The big question around Donald is (1) Is he going to see through his 4 year term? (2) Will he be assassinated (by …pretty much anyone and everyone on the planet), or (3) forced to resign due to corruption / scandal / sexual accusations / foreign affairs screw-up (select what you believe).

      This year is going to be very interesting, whether it be ill or good. But the Brexit fallout will surely dominate.

    89. yesindyref2 says:

      Just to add to Beor’s useful and interesting posting, here’s the list of countries the EU has trade deals, and it has links to details. The Brexiteers should read it and weep for all of us:

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      From the Herald about the so-called Indy poll:

      Green MSP Ross Greer said that it was “good to see” support for independence had “not declined as so many had predicted”.

      He added that it was “impossible to say with any certainty whether or not there will be another referendum soon” because it was still unclear if the UK Government would consider the Scottish Government’s Brexit proposals.

      I’m totally with him on that, it’s very encouraging. Like SGP I’m dying to see the BMG page and data tables, first as James says for the actual question, but also for the don’t knows which will tell their own story. The last one BMG distorted their own data about whether a hard Brexit would make a difference to those that want Indy Ref 2 – it was actually 55% then!

    91. Breeks says:

      The SNP has a rather obvious opportunity to address the disinformation process with a reform of its website.
      It needn’t take a lot of money to do it. There are talented web designers who’d be delighted to draft dynamic websites with all kinds of clever facilities for concise delivery of information. Hold a competition.

      If you think about it, doesn’t it strike you as odd that very few people use the SNP website for anything? Come on SNP. Get your IT people to raise their game. Realistically the SNP website should be a hub for all kinds of pro Independence, pro EU, and pro Scot-Gov internet traffic. There is no excuse for anything so pedestrian.

      Even the EU has a website dedicated to the rebuttal of false media headlines. It’s not very inspiring I’ll be honest, but it’s there. I keep calling to mind Jack Fosters top ten Unionist myths back in 2014. Thoroughly excellent, covered a lot of ground very quickly, and it didnt leave any political aftertaste despite full square nailing the pro-Indy message.

      The next year to 18th months could be a defining period in Scotland’s history, – a true watershed moment. If ever there was a point in the last 300 years for pulling out the stops, then surely it has to be round about now.

      Get Jack Foster commissioned to debunk Westminster’s abuse of our sovereignty and the constitutional and democratic deficits which Scotland has to put up with. Show some initiative and get Unionist opinion reacting to your agenda, your trailblazing media, your viral ads, and not more of this ploughing on stoically through a blizzard of Unionist invective.

      With good humour, intelligence, slick design, high quality content and rewarding interaction, we’d have yet another online resource at our disposal. Everybody knows Governments don’t “do” catchy information spiels, but normal governments don’t have wall to wall state funded propaganda channels rubbishing their every move. Scotland needs to be seen to have a government which other governments want to emulate. We need to be aiming that high.

      Trawl about for resources. The National has WGD and Moody cartoons to augment its content, Wings has Chris Cairns and some fantastic BTL expertise on all manner of topics. Get somebody with a bit of spark about them to see what is out there just itching to get involved. There’s Michael Greenwell and Andrew Tickell who do some great podcasts, and we have strength in depth in alternative broadcasting and live feeds.

      If we want to reap what we sow, and know there is a media storm heading in our direction, it’s high time we started preparing the soil if we want to see any results in Spring.

    92. Graf Midgehunter says:


      I’m glad someone else thinks 2017 has great potential..!

      At the moment we’ve got a quiet period but I think 2017 will really develope later with lots of juicy threads from the Rev. 😉

      The Rev’s forcast of a “Boring and tedious” year lacking of excitement seems a bit underplayed – who knows.

    93. crazycat says:

      @ Marie Clark, Valerie and Les Wilson

      The National will be back tomorrow after today’s holiday (as it was last week). They did inform readers of this in earlier editions.

      (So you’ve been caught skim-reading! 😉 )

    94. Stoker says:

      I suppose there’s no coincidence with the timing of that Orkney story and the start of a 3-parter tonight on the BBC, eh!

      Britain’s Ancient Capital – Secrets of Orkney

      The programme includes rent boy gopher Neil Oliver, nuff said!

    95. Famous15 says:

      Brexit was a British nationalist imperial fantasy and will end with tears.

      Scotland has no such imperial notions.

      Independence is our only hope.

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      As far as WHEN we get IR2, I’ll be ready for any time from autumn this year – imagine that – THIS YEAR NOW – perhaps even Thursday 30th November, right through to Feb 2019 at the very latest, but more likely 18 + say 1 or 2 months after Article 50 invoked end March this year.

      Ready and waiting.

    97. Fireproofjim says:

      Re Opening new Forth Bridge
      I agree entirely that this should be a Royal-free occasion.
      Ideally a group of children from all over Scotland would be great.
      However if you really want to annoy the Unionists then a major figure from the EEC would do the trick. Say Mr Guy Verhofstadt. I would pay good money for that.

    98. Stu Mac says:

      @HandandShrimp says

      Surely a spanner short of a fool (!) toolbox? And a drill and a hammer and a …

    99. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Breeks 4.41pm

      I wrote something similar a few days ago about the abysmal SNP website but I was nowhere near as articulate or clear as you were. Very good and well said. 😉

      What did run through my head was that instead of holding a BBC protest at Pathetic Quay, we should hold a protest outside of the SNP HQ about the god awful state of their website. The SNP membership (and subs) has a right to better information and that starts with their website.

      I think that would certainly give them a bit of a shock..!

    100. Bill McLean says:

      It was in the National on Saturday, I think, that there would be no National today!

    101. Bill Mclean says:

      Sorry, see someone has already informed there would be no National today.

    102. galamcennalath says:

      2017 and the Tories have nothing of consequence to say, however as soon as A50 has been triggered, I expect the EU to have lots to say.

      They will set the agenda, timescale, and framework of any deals, and I expect them to be far more open about how they see the situation playing out.

      Integrity and security of the EU is uppermost, not finance and trade, IMO. In the short term there are elections in several countries and they will want to dissuade voters for opting for right wing nationalist EU damaging parties in their own countries. If May thinks she has been ostracised so far, just let her wait!

      They will want to show that Brexit is an dreadful idea and no one else should consider following it!

      This should become apparent quickly, I reckon.

    103. Rock says:

      New Year, New Decade or New Millenium, Scottish unionist politics, led by Scotland’s enemy number 1, the BBC, will never change.

      Wipe out the unionists by voting only SNP in May.

      Happy new year to the Rev. Stuart Campbell and all genuine independence supporters posting here.

    104. Bill McLean says:

      And so it continues… and by the looks of todays BUM editions it’s going to get worse. But not to worry BBC Scotland is not biased! How do I know? The Great Donalda told me so!!! And so the circus appears for another year!

    105. Fireproofjim says:

      Re lousy SNP website and rebuttal of MSM lies.
      It is always good to write to your SNP MP or MSP about these things rather than post on here. (They all have published email addresses.)
      That way your concerns go straight to someone who may be able to put it right.
      I have written to my MP (Joanne Cherry) on another topic and got a considered reply.
      The MSM rebuttal is something I intend to pursue.

    106. Lochside says:

      @ Beor 2.11, this info on Brexit should be at the top of the SG’s message to ‘Leavers’.How many reading this contribution would still buy into the fiction of an open and bigger and better market place for the UK out of the EU?

    107. Arthur Stramash says:

      Problem is the daily, hourly drip drip of unionist propaganda. State broadcast media quotes press releases from unionist parties printed by the unionist press. It’s not democracy and it could fatally undermine any indyref2, since for non-politically engaged types this is the constant background noise.

    108. Ghillie says:

      28 years ago I would have welcomed a Baby Box,and loved and kept our Makar’s beautiful poem = )

      I was unexpectedly taken into hospital two weeks early for the birth of my first child and a Baby Box ready and waiting at home would have relieved a great deal of anxiety at that time.

      Best wishes to all new mums. Enjoy the loving help our enlightened Scottish Government is giving you and your precious new babies = )

      What a wonderful start to 2017 = )

    109. Ghillie says:

      As for the papers and the usual suspects rolling out the same old same old, in a way it’s a relief.

      No clever new tactics (as if they could lol)

      No worrying truths or revelations.

      Certainly no decent arguements or salient points.

      All I see is panic.

    110. galamcennalath says:

      Lochside says:

      … the fiction of an open and bigger and better market place for the UK out of the EU

      Indeed. I keep thinking about it since I read Beor’s comment.

      It would seem to knock a leg out from underneath the Brexit case.

      It was ‘sold’ on the basis of great trade deals, securing borders, and sweeping away red tape.

      The ‘red tape’ always sounded dodgy because that probably means ‘rights’ being swept away.

      The trade deals sound as if that is just a flat out lie.

      Which leaves xenophobic isolationist nationalism! Yuk!

    111. Craig P says:

      Happy New year to you all.

      2017 is going to be an amazing year.

      My not very difficult prediction: thanks to the innate conservatism of Scots, independence will only just hold its support, despite our best efforts. But support for the union will soften past the point of no return, thanks to the destructive work of the Brexiteers.

    112. Thepnr says:

      So I thought I’d pop over to the LibDems in Scotland website to read more on Tavish Scott’s FOI request about assaults on teachers in Scottish schools.

      There was though nothing to be found on that topic so being bored I had a look at what else may be in their news. I then noticed then a very recurrent theme.

      ”Rumbles reveals thousands of Scots not driving home for Christmas”
      Scottish Liberal Democrats today revealed that more than 7000 Scots a year have their driving licenses taken away but that the number is falling, raising questions about whether this is due to increased public awareness or the pressures on front line policing.

      A freedom of information request by the Scottish Liberal Democrats found 22,345 drivers registered in Scotland were disqualified during the last three years, with drunk driving the most common cause. A further 1,329 had their licenses revoked.

      ”Scottish Liberal Democrats uncover rise in homelessness at Christmas”

      On 25 December 2015, 26,320 adults and 11,200 children were registered as homeless, a rise of 8% and 16% respectively compared to two years earlier. The information was provided by the Scottish Government in a response to a freedom of information request.

      “Across the last three Christmas’, 100,000 people were homeless, almost a third of them children.

      ”Cole-Hamilton: Half a million days lost due to teacher mental health”

      Alex Cole-Hamilton MSP today said teachers must be given more support after new figures revealed they have taken nearly half a million days off for mental health reasons during the last three years.

      Responses to a Scottish Liberal Democrat freedom of information request showed that teaching staff and teaching support staff employed by councils have taken 477,005 days off due to mental ill health since 2013/14.

      I have no idea why but the LibDems press releases seem to have a thing for FOI requests and like to give figures over the last three years in trying their best to make things look worse than they are.

      I’d call this clutching at straws really.

    113. Breeks says:

      Fireproofjim says:
      2 January, 2017 at 5:41 pm
      “Re lousy SNP website and rebuttal of MSM lies.
      It is always good to write to your SNP MP or MSP about these things rather than post on here.”

      Sorry Jim, pass I’m afraid.

    114. TheWasp says:

      I’ve just seen on the news where they are, that 14 new “garden villages” are to be built in South Britain. Will we be paying for these?

    115. Stu Mac says:

      @galamcennalath says

      BBC Alba produces excellent news documentaries/reports from all around Europe (probably allowed to do so as doesn’t impact on UK propaganda too much and of course small audience) and the quality puts the main BBC channels to shame.

    116. Dan Huil says:

      Craig P 6:31pm

      As long as Scotland regains its independence I don’t really care how it comes about. The arrogance and ignorance shown towards Scotland by Westminster will certainly play a part.

    117. Graeme Doig says:

      Mon the SNP. Fighting Westminster tyranny and providing for new mum’s … what’s not to like 🙂

    118. Liz g says:

      Aw jings…If that Tool spanner is right that wan wee poem can brainwash a wean.
      Is anybody else worried about aw they Broons/old Wuillie Annuals.
      I mean wit Wiz Santa’s Agenda There??
      We need an enquiry!

    119. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lochside –

      Nana recently gave us a very nice link to a SP debate in which the McCrone Report was discussed – it was from 2005.

      How often it’s been mentioned since then? I know not, but it’s surely one of the things the BTUKOKers should be slapped around the chops with, heartily, at every opportunity.

    120. ronnie anderson says:

      Ah dont think Kezia & Ruthie will be singing Rockabye baby anytime soon its reference is The Winds Of Change blowing through Europe.

    121. davidb says:

      This Orkney crap is reported on several “quality” papers sites.

      What would be the attitude of the average little Englander if say Bradford wanted to become an Islamic Republic? What if Liverpool wanted to secede, and become an independent republic? Or London wanted to dump the rest of England and seek membership of the EU on its own, as a city state? All preposterous ideas.

      So why do they give any credence to silly stories threatening partition of Scotland? And still no mention ever of our very legitimate territorial claim to Berwick?

      I grow to hate the imperialist mindset more with every passing day.

    122. Broch Landers says:

      The Herald is a vital part of the Scottish media landscape.

      Its depth of news coverage is hugely impressive.

      The political commentary is shrewdly sceptical.

      Factual accuracy and presentational polish are among its key strengths.

      If you disagree it’s because you have made the mistake of looking up the World Wide Web, which could put a virus on your computer.

    123. Glamaig says:

      davidb says:
      2 January, 2017 at 8:38 pm

      ‘I grow to hate the imperialist mindset more with every passing day.’

      Its that mindset that normalises this kind of language which is used every day to undermine our self confidence and aspirations to be a normal country –

      fighting injustice = ‘grievance culture’

      teaching our children in their own languages = ‘brainwashing’

      Theres plenty more – we should compile a Unionist phrase book, when you see it in black and white its all the more shocking, especially when more often than not its Scots who are terrified of their own country running itself, who are using these phrases.

    124. Lochside says:

      Ian B..Thanks for reminding me re. Nana and her prodigious and resolute links. Glad to see you and several auld and not so auld heids are back and contributing. Tam J and Petra have been quiet as well. Lots of others that I haven’t seen in a while.

      The problem is that time and again the SG have ignored the opportunities to refute blatant lies and big deceits that can have no defence or justification from the Unionists and their lackeys. We lost the REF because of deliberate unchallenged lies. Yes there were flaws in the explanations on currency and Euro membership.Several erudite contributors have given clear explanations as to how the former could be put in plain terms. The latter is rapidly becoming self explanatory. But pensions for instance was unequivocal. The evidence was clear but the lies by Clunking Fist went unchallenged.

      Our leaders, either political or civic must lead the verbal and civic action required to shake the 30% out of their complacency. Yes it is a binary case. Yes it will divide. But that’s politics and life. Our country’s very existence depends on this concerted resistance at the deluge of ‘post truth(!) lies being excreted by the media every single day.

    125. Phronesis says:

      SG taking steps to ensure every child has the best start in life and in challenging economic times maintaining the correct mix of universal and targeted services. Welcoming all its newest citizens with a baby box is something apparently to be met with derision and cynicism if you have zero understanding of the key drivers of poor outcomes for children and the evidence of the benefits of focusing on these drivers in the early years.

      Like those pesky Nordic countries (including those without oil reserves) with their extensive and generous social protection schemes that support families by compensating them when they lose incomes in times of trouble, temporary unemployment and create the necessary state infrastructure to allow families to cope when they are under pressure. Redistributing resources across individuals, households, and generations provides protection and insurance against economic loss and hardship.

      Through universal publically funded early childhood education and care provision the Nordic welfare model supports the mother’s participation in the labour market and meets the requirements of economic gender equality. The Nordic countries consistently have the lowest rates of neonatal mortality, the highest rates of child happiness and well-being. Despicable frankly.

    126. Stoker says:

      Thepnr on 2 January, 2017 at 6:31 pm:

      Good wee bit of surface scraping there Alex. Have you thought about submitting your own FOI? Something along the lines of how many FOI’ have the BBC submitted, how many FOI’ have the Scottish LibDems submitted, how many FOI’ have Slabber submitted and how many FOI’ have the Scottish Cons submitted?

      I’d do it myself but i’m swamped in my own projects at the moment but i think the results could be very revealing. I believe it’s what these organisations are calling an “investigation” these days. If that’s the case Alex then consider yourself a private investigator. 🙂

      Here’s a couple of links for anyone wanting to lodge their own FOI

    127. Big Jock says:

      Scotland is divided and it took the referendum to illustrate it. On one side we have progressive,civic caring social democratic Scots. On the other capatilist, selfish xenophobic Scots.

      I share nothing in common with the Brit Scots who ate Thatchers spawn.

    128. Stoker says:

      Big Jock wrote:

      “..Scots who ate Thatchers spawn.”

      Is that what they call a Freudian slip Jock or wishful thinking?

    129. peter newling says:

      “Brit Scots who ate Thatcher’s spawn”. Was that a typo? Brilliant anyway!

    130. Macca73 says:

      Happy New Year to everyone!

      I think that despite the bluster from the press at the minute (who by the way will just wear people out) the fight will be won by the “what will it mean for me” on the ground.

      Let’s face it. Last time round there was big business such as banks, Whisky distilleries and fast food chains advising to “stay in the union if you know what’s good for you” Who out of those are going to do that now as the country decided to walk away from the largest single market place on the planet?

      I keep asking myself who would could possibly front the fight in a Second referendum for the union? Interesting times are ahead..

    131. Big Jock says:

      Stoker it was a spell check…should have been are but ate sounded funnier!

    132. Big Jock says:

      You hear things said on social media sometimes. The one I keep hearing is that the EU big guns want shot of the UK. Apparently they are not going to be shown the door,more heckled onto the doorstep.

      Once the internal Supreme Court thingy is sorted. The EU will say right feck off now.

    133. Ken500 says:

      When APT is changed (£1/2Billion) and minimum pricing is introduced (£1Billion). Scotland will be saving £1.5Billion a year. Or have more to spend.

    134. heedtracker says:

      UKOK yoon cringe registers 10 on Richter scale across planet Earth.

      Scotland is in top 10 ‘must see’ countries in 2017
      5 hours ago
      From the section Scotland

    135. Capella says:

      Catalan President promises to declare UDI if 50%+1vote yes in a referendum this year. The Madrid government are furious. Will be interesting to see how this develops and how the EU reacts. Perhaps our MPs will send a message of support.

    136. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Big Jock says:

      “You hear things said on social media sometimes. The one I keep hearing is that the EU big guns want shot of the UK. Apparently they are not going to be shown the door,more heckled onto the doorstep.

      Once the internal Supreme Court thingy is sorted. The EU will say right feck off now.”

      The other EU Members are quite literally sick and tired of the endless “we want” whining, opt-outs, special deals and on, and on, an……

      London wants to trigger Art.50 and still keep the back door open to change their mind should things not be going their way. De-Brexiting

      I think London may have miscalculated on this as well in their over-estimation of their self importance.

      The whispers over here are that when WM sends in the A50, then the EU will politly say thank you. We accept your resignation and that’s that. We’ll now talk about the divorce details.

      Accepted is accepted, you may have changed your mind but we haven’t. You’re leaving.

    137. heedtracker says:

      Hootsman certainly hit the new year ground running. This ones got Euan MacSpanner hysterics all over it. Only in Scotland.

    138. bjsalba says:

      I can feel for your seething frustration at the wilful idiocy of the Brexiteers. What I have read from other sources confirms what you say about the EU.

      Be assured that you have a receptive audience here on SoS and we will do our best to get the truth out to as many folks as we can.

    139. K1 says:

      Whit’s that bjsalba? Sussed over Scotland…

      I’ll get ma coat.

    140. Thepnr says:


      Archived your link to the story on the National about Catalonia. thanks for the link and not having a dig but often I can’t read the whole story on the National due to the limit on the number of articles they will allow me to read/month.

      If you use an Adblocker then 1/3 of the page is hidden by a big blue bar telling you to put it off! I prefer to keep my adblocker on. Cheers for the link, well worth reading.

    141. Ronnie says:


      Scotland in Top Ten ‘must see’ in 2017.

      I see it’s all due to Harry Potter.

      Nothing to do with ‘Outlander’ then?

      Slàinte one and all!

    142. Thepnr says:

      If we stay within the UK then it is game over, probably permanently according to the right wing Labour supporting Fabian Society.

      Based on analysis of existing poll data and historical trends, the study predicts that the next election, whether held imminently or in 2020, is very likely to see Labour win fewer than 200 seats for the first time since 1935, possibly falling to about 140.

      …Such a scenario would see the Conservatives win more than 400 seats, giving Theresa May a vast Commons majority.

      The Tories on 400 seats! Get me out of this madhouse.

    143. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Heedtracker 10.30 And people wondered what the terminology of the Tartan Tory referred to the manny that treaded water for 11 years in leadership of the SNP, another dinosaur thats long past his sell bye date.

    144. On 13th Jan 2015 28 Scottish Labour MPs voted with the Tories and Lib Dems for a £30 billion in cuts, the Charter for Budget Responsibility, comprising £12 billion in cuts to Welfare payments, disability payments, Tax Credits and Housing Benefits, £13 billion in cuts to public spending on vital services and sacking hundereds of thousands of public servants, and a mere £5 billion raised in tax revenue, but not by taxing the richest, who got a 5% tax cut.
      Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire North), Willie Bain (Glasgow North East), Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire), Anne Begg (Aberdeen South), Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway), Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk), Margaret Curran (Glasgow East), Iain Davidson (Glasgow South West), Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife), Brian Donohoe (Central Ayshire), Frank Doran (Aberdeen North), Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire), Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West), David Hamilton (Midlothian), Tom Harris (Glasgow South), Jimmy Hood (Lanark and Hamilton East), Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun), Iain MacKenzie (Inverclyde), Michael McCann (East Kilbride , Stathaven and Lesmahagow), Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch), Anne McGuire (Stirling), Graham Morrice (Livingston), Iain Murray (Edinburgh South), Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts), Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian), John Robertson (Glasgow North West), Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw), Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central.
      28 out of 41, who subsequently got what they deserved and were kicked out at the GE.
      13 ‘abstained’, with Jim Murphy publicly holding court in Glasgow with the Dead Tree Scrollers on the day of the vote declaring that he was ‘not a Unionist’.
      One Scottish Labour MP out of 41 Tony Blair New Labourite neo Conservative Red Tories voted against the Austerity packge.
      Well, Iain Murray, the Last Man Standing voted to punish the poor, reward the rich, as did Anas Sarwar.
      Yet he bleats on about Tory cuts in today’s Blahs?
      A hypocrite of the first order.
      Some may accuse him of being a Two faced little toady. I couldn’t possibly comment.
      The only thing shocking about today’s Unionist drivel is that Murray thinks that we have forgotten that under Miliband and Balls, we would have had the same Austerity squeeze, rewards to the rich, which Cameron, and now May is imposing on us.
      They are well named: Red Tories.

    145. frogesque says:


      BBC : Scotland in the top 10 places ( countries) to visit.

      Actually read the article and we are second behind India!

      How to do Scotland down without even trying. Beginning to detest the BBC even more.

    146. Capella says:

      @ Thepnr – point taken! I have a sub so don’t get the adblock message. Will archive in future.

    147. Les Wilson says:

      I agree with others that the SNP need to be much more vocal about the lies and false news that is daily spate out over Scotland.

      Every Media and BBC interview should be managed in a more intelligent put down, aka Derek McKay. Take no more nonsense, debunk lies in mid stream live on TV. No more talking over, no more interruptions to divert answers they do not like, no more meek acceptance of unacceptable from them.

      We also, need to get the answers to the most likely questions,
      (I do suspect they will have answers already, they would be fools not to) like currency best option, be precise about pensions, and all the other shit thrown in Indy1.

      Also in ref to a hard border, we need to debunk this one by making the fact that the rest of the UK SELL more to us than we sell to then, and by a good margin.

      Hardly ever this is used in reply of what they sell to us. So a hard border is unlikely as it would really hurt UKOK trade too, more than it would hurt us, European exporters will be happy to supply us.

      Workable and clever solutions are what we need, and set about convincing people with evidence.

      No more tipping our hats to the Lordships of the South, give them it back, we have had enough of being quiet to their abuse.

    148. manandboy says:

      We all want to win the Independence game 5-0. But sometimes you win 5-4.

    149. Thepnr says:

      Oh FFS, hang on to your seatbelts.

    150. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lochside –

      Cheers mister.

      Some of the longer-standing WOS commenters, meself included, appear to have backed-off contributing, and it’s probably because we’ve said what we felt was needed *at the time* and have since grown wary of being repetitious.

      But it’s quite astonishing how often the same basics need to be repeated, over and over, before folk ‘get it’. McCrone is just one example. There are too many to enumerate. That’s why the contributions of yourself, Robert Peffers, Nana, Ken500 and many others are so valuable – youse manage to keep-the-heid, referring new readers to stuff which they may not have heard of at all, even if the rest of us are heart-sick of having to be reminded.

      Hey, it’s all good – when some of get tired, we can and do have a break because we always know there’s someone else to keep it all going.

      ‘To-me, to-you, to-me, to-you’ and all that Chuckly palaver.


      🙂 🙂 🙂

    151. What price the new Forth Road Bridge being called the Queen Elizabeth the Second Bridge?

    152. Still Positive. says:

      We need a separate Scottish currency and it would be great if the SG promised the best pensions in Europe ahead of indyref2 as well as all present pensions, paid by the UK Government as the negotiated responsibility of an Indy Scottish Government.

      A citizen’s income could also be a vote winner. Yet to watch the video but will tomorrow.

    153. Meg merrilees says:

      Re the new series on TV about Orkney – apparently Alastair Carmichael, MP for Orkney, the lawyer who’s a lie-yer, has taken offence to Neil Oliver describing them as remote islands… remote from where? London, Edinburgh?

      Not a good start Neil, tut tut! Showing your London cringe there!

      Thepnr @ 6.31pm Jan 2nd
      Re the Fib Dem’s statistics on their website about Teacher’s days off.

      I posted this on 27th dec @1.24am on the ‘Cops and Cobblers’ thread.

      … I read that Scottish teachers lose more days due to mental illness: – Statistics obtained by the Lib-Dems showed teachers, head teachers, teaching support staff and nursery staff took a total of 158, 639 days off work in 2015/16 compared to 150,000 in 2014/15 and 140,000 in 2013/14.

      A few lines down Alex Cole-Hamilton, Scottish Lib-Dem health spokesman, said that Scottish teachers had taken 477, 000 days off in the last three years which clearly showed that they’re under ‘severe strain’.

      158,639 + 150,000 + 140,000 = 448,639??

      Where does he get the other 28,361 days from?

      We’re also told that there are about 50,000 teachers and early learning staff in Scottish schools (but not how many head teachers and teacher support staff.) If I do my sums right, that means the average Scottish teacher has taken off 9.54 days in three years as a result of mental illness – 3 days a year….less if the number of head teachers and teacher support staff raises that 50,000 number significantly.

      Think there are some mountains being mischiefed from molehills during the season of ‘goodwill to all men unless your SNP’!

    154. Meg merrilees says:

      Jack Collatin@12.02am

      Maybe we should start a campaign to have it called the ‘Sir Andy Murray’ crossing/bridge!

    155. Thepnr says:

      @Meg merrilees

      I know the disinformation is blatant, and even then it doesn’t tell you very much. What are we supposed to compare it with? is this a good or a bad performance?

      It is neither in my eyes, it is meaningless numbers without context.

      Look at the state of the paragraph below for example from my earlier post. What does that mean???

      Scottish Liberal Democrats today revealed that more than 7000 Scots a year have their driving licenses taken away but that the number is falling, raising questions about whether this is due to increased public awareness or the pressures on front line policing.

      Might as well say, the number of patients suffering from lung cancer has been falling but is this due to people stopping smoking or because smoking is no longer allowed in public places?

      There has to be context, else it is meaningless and most of what the opposition parties try to attack the SNP with seems meaningless to me at least.

    156. Had a baby box delivered in 1961 on the birth of my 1st son was the S>N>P> in gov. NO???

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      What on earth is Jackie Baillie doing in Burnley?

    158. Still Positive. says:

      As a retired English teacher in Glasgow I can say most of us took days off because we were knackered. It certainly was in my case.

      Our ‘excuses’ were more likely to be a cold or throat infection.

    159. Thepnr says:

      How many days off happen on average across Scotland in ALL business whether through “mental illness” or not?

      I’ve no idea, so it kind of makes the teacher days off irrelevant when there is nothing to compare it to.

      My best guess just has to be that it is no different, I’m guessing also that what that stupid reporter meant by “mental illness” was that more commonly described as stress in everyday language.

      These journalists and their employers are despicable, I won’t buy their rubbish, I won’t watch the BBC. I am immune but even reading online can wind me up.

      I despise this hegemony I’m forced to live under.

    160. manandboy says:


      The BBC, the Record, The Herald, The Scotsman, Ruth Davidson and the Conservative and Unionist Party, Kezia Dugdale and the Labour and Tory Alliance Party, Willie Rennie and the Unionist Lib Dems – all want Scotland DEAD – under Westminster rule.

      Nicola, the SNP, the Scottish Government, the EU, and 2 million Yes Voters, want Scotland to be fully ALIVE and independent.

      It will soon be time for every No voter in Scotland to GROW UP AND THINK – LIKE AN ADULT.

    161. Cactus says:

      Aweright Ian Brotherhood ~

      Well said at 12:02am.. I reckon they’re saving themselves for Scotland’s finale.. give us a wave youse! 🙂

      Howsabout them 9:42pm postings to the original.. likey.

    162. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Cactus –

      More power to the Original and Best IB!!

      Hope you had/are having a braw and busy NY.

      Haven’t seen you for yonks brother – will you make it to The Ruglonianfest?

      Hoots aplenty – may ye prosper muchly!!!


    163. MJT says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      I’m a fan of The Fall, and as such have a love of repetition per se. But, you might, and others might have said the same thing umpteen times, here, there, anywhere, but if folks get it for the first time…it has a positive value.

      I say different versions of the same few spiels to folks I know; family, friends, activists, folks at work…I mix it up a bit, modify, hone the message, the salient points. Enlighten & inspire. Everyone knows someone who’s for turning. The information folks get here is to be used elsewhere. So keep at it.

      I work at various care homes for the elderly. I joined a conversation between two lovely ladies, talking about Europe, travel and family, one of the ladies (over 80yrs old she is) segued into a pro Indy monologue, talking about Oor oil, Norway’s oil and Norway’s oil fund. Turned out she was a SNP member, I backed her up, no much just a wee bit, and who know she might have got a convert.

      I was a bit down earlier, but just thinking about her cheers me up. I never asked her where she got her info, but who knows ay…

    164. Tackety Beets says:

      Boer @ 2.11 pm

      That’s news to me ref EU trade deals with rWorld etc , thank you for that post.

      Every Wings day is a school day.

      Lochside etc ,
      I have a few “friends” who admit to vote Naw and NOT ONE of them knows WTF McCrone Report is ….. What can I say FFS !

      Not trying to be a smart ass but Im sure I knew it existed in the 80’s ?
      Did some of us discuss it in ’79 ?

      They think we are all Hoodwinked by Yon Saamind!
      Conversly, we all feel they(Naws) are not up to speed with facts as listed on here by many and are being hoodwinked by MSM , Beeb etc

      New year resolution AGAiN , “try not to spend so much time reading WOS” mmmmm

      That’s 4 years in a row I failed , last try ….. Smiley thing !

      Yer an addiction aa tell yee!

    165. Cactus says:

      Cheers tya Bro Brotherhood, many a hoots! 🙂

      Aye, rockin’ thru da festive..

      Yeah, ahm up furra fest, lemmy check.

      I have a calendar on my wall, I think I’ll start marking a ‘X’ on the dates when the day be done.

      Every day is a Scotland Day, muchos prosper to you too Bro of Bros.


    166. Thepnr says:


      To be fair I think that was the point Ian Brotherhood was making.

      It does have to be repeated again and again and again.Just not by the same people though all the tiem.

      Lot’s of people decry Wings as you are obviously aware, one of the tactics is to say how it’s a “clique” and a club for a few ect. All bullshit of course.

      Not you personally, but who gives a rats fart whether you have read Wings for a week of 3 years? Totally irrelevant, what is relevant is that new voices are required all the time.

      That will bring a different point of view, maybe a new slant on an old story? Who knows, but people can dip in and out as often as they like as far as I’m concerned.

      I agree with you MJT we should keep repeating the same things as not everyone has heard them yet. However it shouldn’t have to be the same old voices, let others have their say.

      I’m sticking around though, no danger. Still have plenty to say.

    167. Cactus says:

      Aweright Thepnr ~

      I second your last line bro..

      I’m sticking around too.

    168. Thepnr says:

      Never said that very well after reading again.

      Wings will be more successful than others because all of Scotland have a voice here. The more the merrier.

      New voices and readers are good. Repeating things many on here already know is good. Be better if it is said by these new visitors IMO rather than have people repeat themselves time after time.

    169. Beor says:

      Thanks to all who appreciated my post.

      Have followed this site for about three years without posting. I used to post a lot on the Guardian – but have more or less given up on that. I do recognise a number of old faces from there though.

      It’s a lot more difficult to participate in a debate when you are twelve to thirteen hours ahead – but will give it a go.

    170. MJT says:


      To be fair gadgie, as well as endorsement of repetiton, I did say ‘mix it up, hone, modify’ – a wee remix here and there.

      Everywhere’s a bit cliquey, the pub’s o’er the road, the SNP, my local branch, the Greens, nae doot the other fringe parties, other Yes leaning websites. My work’s a bit cliquey. I bet Scottish Labour branches would love to be cliquey these days. You need at least four folks.

      But really it’s just that folks are fond of the familiar and friendly, so I guess be friendly till folks are familiar (and youse are). And mibbe a 28.3% cut in derogatory euphemisms, so as no to repel the casual swithering small u unionist. Cos I know that gnarls at my Haemorrhoids a touch and I’m so Yes I’m down to be part of the suicide sandbag squad.

      One of the best things about Wings is that it gets a lot of comments. And lots of those comments come with fantastic information and sharp insight, and it’s a great spot for a moral boost if needs be and a gripe an aw.

    171. Thepnr says:


      I liked your first post earlier today and every new voice is welcome.

      Hope you will be posting regularly, as you know we have a Brexit to negotiate and your knowledge shared would be much appreciated.

      The UK will negotiate, though Scotland it seems won’t get to play!

    172. Cactus says:

      Aweright Beor ~

      Good to have ye here international bro 🙂

      Cheers for an insight into the EU..

      Mon the EU, and Scotland.

    173. Thepnr says:


      Thank you for that, I understand your reasoning a lot better now. There is no doubting though that in the main, those here on Wings are all all the same side.

      If we never disagreed at all then this really would be an echo chamber.

    174. Davie P says:

      Jack Collatin @ 12.02am

      The new bridge across The Forth will be called The Queensferry Crossing. I like this: It’s “neutral” to those who would like it to be, and also “deferential” to those who would like it to be.

      A proper example of “the best of both worlds”, to quote a recent political campaign…

    175. Cactus says:

      Mon the EU, with.. Scotland x


    176. FatCandy says:

      Defo @ first comment

      Surely you mean “post tRuthies”?

    177. twathater says:

      Breeks & Graf Midgehunter & others

      I agree 100% re the SNP SG website , Graf suggested on another thread the inclusion on the website of articles explaining The Crone Report , The Treaty , sovereignty and other items relating to the NEED for independence , the suggestion also to include a section to supply constant refutation of the lies , myths and misinformation evacuated by the britnat hordes.

      Not everyone is willing or able to listen to a full on explanation of the competences or capabilities of an indy Scotland , but if you have a website supplying proof of Scotland”s wealth in natural resources with financial figures explained it may stimulate investigation and realisation of the lies being promulgated.

      I have every faith in the SG’s ability to run our country but I am disappointed that they are allowing the britnat hordes free reign to malign and denigrate their competent governance.

      I know what you say R Peffers about letting the enemy hang themselves but we are fighting a rearguard action all the time , instead of taking the argument to them.

    178. Cactus says:

      Mon SCOTLAND, with.. the EU *

    179. Dr Jim says:

      The Fabian society says: Although it may be uncomfortable for the Labour party they must now consider doing a deal with the SNP to win a general election to keep the Tories out of power

      Now I seem to remember that deal was offered by our FM in good faith, and amongst the ones who rejected that offer out of hand was the Fabian society and now they want a deal as if it was their idea

      I would kinda suggest that they had their chance but now the Labour party have become so unelectable why would the SNP even bother to listen to what’s going to be massive losers anyway with probably another leader election coming

      Civil war over Brexit if it doesn’t happen says SKY news and others
      A tad extreme I think but SKY go on to interview a Scottish woman who works in a chippy in Burnley who’s a leaver then a Celtic supporter in Glasgow who’s a remainer and both were of the opinion that in the North of England it’s rubbish and in Scotland we’re completely different from England and should leave the UK

      But without question they both agreed on one thing London and the Tories are getting richer

      Brexit has become a political war zone for the Tories now cracking and crumbling with bits falling off everywhere with dust billowing and they’re unable to stop the bombs dropping

      My considered advice to our FM, you don’t need to do anything boss except watch them from your windae while they murder each other (bit of political insight there) ahem!

    180. Macart says:

      @Dr Jim

      Ayup, they’re eating each other alive in W1 and the electorate are divided as never before south of the Rio Tweed. Dog whistle politics and right wing meeja have done a bang up job with the population right enough. Helluva sight, isn’t it?

      So much rampant confusion, fear and hatred on the loose. This isn’t going to end well for folks. I reckon the FM should take your advice and sit the next two or three months out of that gawdawful bollox. Steer clear of it, leave the UK parties to stew in their own shite and rest up for what comes next. I reckon she’s going to be right busy in the Spring.

    181. Dr Jim says:

      SKY news says it’s all really bad in England let’s go to Scotland and see what it’s like there

      Q interview with guess who, Katy Grant, who says:
      Nicola Sturgeon’s Baad and Scotland hasn’t changed but Nicola Sturgeon’s Baad and we don’t have the same immigration problem here and Nicola Sturgeon’s Baad so all in all Nicola Sturgeon’s Baad

      Thanks for that insight into Scotland Katy, says SKY news

      So there we are everybody’s informed now, Yup!

    182. ScottieDog says:

      I have a few “friends” who admit to vote Naw and NOT ONE of them knows WTF McCrone Report is ….. What can I say FFS !”

      I reckon the majority of folk don’t known about the existence of the McCrone report. Folk are just too lazy and hooked on their daily diet of ‘facts’

      Even without Scotland being an independent country you just have to look at how Alaska benefits from a sovereign wealth fund…

      People have been so badly brainwashed about London’s ‘wealth’ and the so called trickle down effect. If people just opened their eyes they would see that London and SE banking establishment have been engaged in a process of wealth extraction for the last 4 decades whereas Scotland’s real assets by comparison created wealth – for the few.

      Printing debt based money and selling it at a cost of interest just creates debt. There is no benefit to the population. The uk establishment can differentiate between between real and fantasy assets but the numbed down population, it would seem, cannot.

      The difference between what Scotland’s

    183. gerry parker says:


      I don’t think the mccrone reports needs much explaining, everyone should take the opportunity to read it, it’s only 19 pages long and is written in clear language.

      We used to give away printed copies on the early wings stalls.


      mccrone report pdf

      download and read, even if you just skip to page 16 and read the conclusions.

      Then remember that this report was marked Secret and hidden away by both red and blue tories for decades to protect their wee cozy arrangement.

    184. Fred says:

      Lochside is correct, I’ve said for yonks that the SNP need a clued-up press officer to refute this Union shit on a daily basis and it’s worse it’s getting! The SNP are not skint & are about to enter the anti-Brexit campaign unprepared. Last night we were treated to Jamie Oliver informing us all that the United Kingdom actually started in Orkney in the Neolithic! The kind of absolute pish which the Nazi’s dreamt up to propound their “Master Race” theories & founded the “Ahnenerbe” (rusty Deutsche!) for that purpose.

      Thank God for Wings!

    185. jockmcx says:

      “the United Kingdom actually started in Orkney”…WHIT?

    186. Hamish100 says:


      Re the naming of the new Forth Bridge Crossing. I had thought it had been given a name but I think ” bridgy McBridgy the 1st” has a ring to it. Can be persuaded by ” Queen betsy the 1st” , ” Bridge to Europe” – just to annoy the brexiters I admit.

      From 2009 Telegraph.

      Andy Kerr, Scottish Labour finance spokesman, said: “The SNP are failing the credibility test over the new Forth Bridge by producing a Bill that fails to say how the new crossing will be paid for.”
      Patrick Harvie MSP, Green party co-leader, said the new crossing was “unaffordable”, adding: “Even assuming the price wouldn’t spiral out of control during construction, it’s already the most expensive bridge of its type ever proposed.
      “Generations of Scots would pick up the bill for the biggest bung to the road-building lobby this country has ever seen.”
      David Mundell, the Tory Shadow Scottish Secretary, a Government led by David Cameron “sit down and hold talks” with Scottish ministers about possible funding ideas.

      Is this the same crowd that pushed through their failures over the Edinburgher tram?

      Now in independence how about some new causeways, bridges in the west, north and south A tunnel or two would bring jobs and help local people.

    187. Legerwood says:

      Jack Collatin says:
      3 January, 2017 at 12:02 am
      “”What price the new Forth Road Bridge being called the Queen Elizabeth the Second Bridge?””


      The bridge has already been named. There was a public consultation where people could submit their suggestions and the name chosen from that process.

    188. Capella says:

      @ Fred, I think you mean his wee brother Neil.

    189. sensibledave says:

      Good Morning and a Very Happy New Year to all Wingers.

      The Rev wrote… “Today’s Herald, meanwhile, leads on a meaningless story about people being opposed to having a second independence referendum in 2017 – something nobody has proposed and which has no prospect of happening barring wildly unforeseeable events”

      I think the article is news worthy (if true).

      The issues surrounding Brexit; and the various challenges that might be made by various groups, together with Ms Sturgeon’s very clearly held view that the result of the EU referendum amongst Scottish voters represents exactly the sort of major change that should trigger a second indyref – means that it is interesting (to me certainly) what, actually, the majority of Scots may believe should happen in 2017 with respect to another indyref.

      I write from the point of view of someone that did not vote to Leave but now believes we have to find the best Brexit possible. If the Scottish Government is going to try and prevent Brexit or is considering indyref2 then it should make its position clear so that the rest can move on.

      That would be fair and reasonable would it not?

    190. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Fred

      Jamie Oliver cooking up some ancestral porridge or did you mean Neil Oliver cooking up some ancestral porridge of our forefathers or was it our forefather’s cultural porridge?

      As for the SNP communication – where’s the beef?

    191. Dr Jim says:

      SKY news is on a roll today with yet another interview from Scotland with everybody’s favourite MSP Anas Sarwar who says:

      Politics of unity no referendums no division pooling and sharing no referendums my Daddy was a Muslim MP no referendums no matter what, problems yes but better together no referendums ever ever Tories rule Ooops!

      Thanks for that insight from Scotland Anas Sarwar says SKY

      What would we do without all this informing us eh

    192. Ron Maclean says:

      @Macart/Dr Jim

      While she’s sitting at her window she could maybe write us a Constitution.

    193. Dr Jim says:

      Troll Klaxon folks, don’t for god sake bite or it’ll be here all day spouting pish and making stupid demands

    194. Dr Jim says:

      @Ron Maclean

      For the people by the people Ron SNP are a Social Democratic party they tend to ask us what we think first

      Pretty good thing in my book

    195. sensibledave says:

      Dr Jim 10.06

      … don’t worry Jim, I’m off in to work now so I wont be around much.

      I’ll maybe pop back later and check that you have been playing nicely and not being horrid to visitors. Be good.

    196. Breeks says:

      I’d like to see the gist of the McCrone Report made into a punchy minute long, in your face, viral-friendly clip. Brain food pot noodle style for those who don’t “do” documents.

      Maybe we need some Ad advice. I remember a beer Ad from years ago which rattled through 80 pictures of numbers for 80 shillings. Then there was another classic for McEwans with the Escher staircase. If beer companies in the 80’s can make iconic ads that lodge in your brain, then surely the pro independence movement can do likewise.

      We need the McCrone report, our expendible fishermen, our Eu loyalties, sovereignty, our renewables,etc all the definitive axes we grind having their own wee clips on YouTube, in tweets, and on people’s phones.

      Make them, make them good, make them funny, and make them punchy enough that even those with the attention span of the Scottish midge can get the message, and a free smile on their coupon into the bargain.

      Come on people of Scotland, let’s start pooling our talent and getting coordinated. Irreverent rebels of the ether, Scotland needs you!

      We have the finest sense of humour in the world. Just look at all those dinner party memes, and the baby box memes too. They happen virtually instantaneously. Then there was the actually instantaneous wind up of David Coburn and his silent live feed.

      More of it, more of it, more of it. Let’s feckin’ do this independence gig…

      Our kids won’t remember their baby boxes, but they’ll thanks us I am sure for giving them their country.

    197. Dorothy Devine says:

      Thepnr , see that skyline photo ? Intit fab?!I absolutely love driving in to Glasgow and seeing those spires of Park and now the Sikh Temple -just glorious.

      Thomas Muir’s Crossing would have been my choice for the new bridge ,anyone know what it is?

    198. Dave Robb says:

      New bbc user survey on BBC Scotland news website – duly answered.

    199. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      Politics of unity no referendums …. no referendums no matter what …. but better together no referendums…

      And on and on and on! You’d think something was making them terrified of an Indyref2.

      What must stick in North British Labour’s gullet, though, is that they have no say nor control of anything.

      The SG/SNP have put a plan on the table. Now the ba’s in May’s court – is she willing to play ball with the wee half of the Union? Or, is she just going to give the Union another kick in the baws?

      IndyRef2 will become necessary because of Tory actions. The SG/SNP will exercise their democratic mandate to call it. Day follows night.

      No one even cares about North British Labour’s opinion!

    200. Legerwood says:

      Dorothy Devine and others.

      The new bridge is called the Queensferry Crossing and that has been the case since 2013.

      35,000 people submitted 7,000 names and the winning name was announced by the FM in the summer of 2013.

    201. Johnny says:

      While I think the term ‘civil war’ would be far too strong, I think that there definitely could be bother down south if the Tories are seen to backslide on Brexit.

      Many would passively accept it, as they do all the guff the Tories feed them. But a vocal minority will probably want to ‘break stuff’ out of rage. I can’t decide whether I think the Tories would be happy with that, or not.

    202. Dr Jim says:


      I suppose what I’m really trying to get at is they’re still making the glaringly obvious mistake of continually asking Unionists opinions and Unionist newspeople but never ask for the opinion of the actual party in Government and by now even the most dense of observers are noticing this behaviour by the media and it’s a large part of what’s caused the problem in Scotland yet they still employ the same dumb tactics like King Canute to hold back the undeniable unstoppable tide

      It all reminds me of Sharpe fighting the Napoleonic wars or when the British got duffed up in America, they stand, get shot to pieces and move on till everybody’s dead and then wonder where it all went wrong after the opponent shoots back better than them

      Times have changed but the Great British Kingdom of England can’t get their heads round it

      The bullying propaganda days of empire are no more, they’ve been… funoot!

    203. ronnie anderson says:

      Here’s ah wee thought for the SG and the opening of the Queensferry Bridge a Young & Older person to cut the ribbon names selected from a Draw & every flag on said bridge to be a Saltire.

    204. rongorongo says:

      I had look at Sanjeev Kohli’s bit of BBC Westminster propaganda just before the Bells, Whas like us.

      He covered the many decades where Scots are stereo typed as aggressive, drunken losers on both TV and the Movies.

      I thought it was a better show than just that: if there was a lot of footage of Scottish and “Scottish” characters conforming to every cliche – then that’s because there’s so many films that cover that territory. Kohli talked about the era when Scotland was treated as basically another outpost of the British empire in terms of its depiction: obvious back in the 1930s and 40s but still there today.

      You mention that there was no mention of so many important Scottish characters from history who could have off-setted the negative stereotypes. But that’s because Scotland really is an undiscovered country in terms of so much of its history and culture. For example – here is a list of Scottish inventors – many are household names but how many have appeared in films? And that is just one topic ripe for depiction. I find that quite an optimistic outlook in terms of our film industry.

    205. K1 says:

      From that Sky ‘report’:

      ‘And if there’s a public consultation too about what needs to be done and where money should be spent, that would make people feel more invested in the political process (happier if things go right and perhaps less inclined to criticise if things go wrong).’

      Talk about dumbed down? Seriously how can anyone take these so called journalists seriously? Apart from that the whole article rests upon the ancient out of date meme of Brown’s ‘federalism’, have we not already here in Scotland surpassed this infantile nonsense?

      Puir England and it’s kiddie on diddy analysis from it’s kiddie on diddy media: ‘Give the Brexiteers what they want or they’ll be very angry and hurt people.’ Says Sky News. That’s not ‘holding to account’ that’s basic blackmail and incitement to violence and these so called ‘news agencies’ should go take a flying fuck tae themselves, shameless and dangerous narrative for the gullible and ignorant is what they are peddling here.

    206. galamcennalath says:

      Johnny says:

      bother down south if the Tories are seen to backslide on Brexit …. Tories would be happy with that, or not.

      The Tories have always stood up to rioters! I don’t think the threat of trouble would influence them.

      Internal divisions and the ever present threat of a UKIP surge will be of more concern, IMO.

      Brexit will happen. Whether it’s a sensible EEA arrangement or a leap off a big cliff, is the issue. The former may be seen a backsliding by the hard right anyway. The latter too awful to actually chose.

      It’s all really in the hands of the EU and what they want to salvage out of the mess.

      The EU will want Brexit to look like a route no one else will contemplate following! They will, however, have to balance retribution and deterence against their own trading with the UK.

    207. Fred says:

      Sorry folks, I mistook the cunt for the cook! Last nights offering centred on the Orkney stone circles which pre-date Stonehenge somewhat, I was just waiting on a stone-slab being overturned to reveal a Neolithic Butchers Apron!

    208. Free Scotland says:

      You have to admire the (cough) sheer quality of writing in the Orkney piece from the Herald – last column, 3rd paragraph from the end.

      ” … until they WAS transferred …”

      Bungling amateurs!!!

    209. Dorothy Devine says:

      Legerwood, thank you – don’t know how I managed to miss it.

      Still the new Southern General remained that until some silly sycophant decided to change it ,and the buses and the road signs and the letterheads and on and on until they had wasted so much money that they could say ‘SNP BAD.’

    210. sensibledave says:

      galacennalath @ 11.13

      You wrote “The EU will want Brexit to look like a route no one else will contemplate following! They will, however, have to balance retribution and deterence against their own trading with the UK.”

      I’m on the train!

      …. I agree totally. As I understand it though, WTO rules average at 4% tariffs. If no deal is done then that is where we will end up. I think I am right in saying that the EU’s problem is that 4% average on our exports to the EU is not much different, in total, than the £10 Billion net per annum that we currently pay to the EU, in effect, for membership of the single market. In addition, the UK government would also receive 4% across the board on EU exports to the UK – whilst also those products become less competitive by degree.

      This is the information that hasn’t made it “out there” yet. The EU do not hold all the cards and, in my view, pragmatism will have to prevail. The EU can bluster but WTO will prevent a “punishment” deal happening and, in terms of the ups and downs, fiscally the UK, as a whole, may end up better off with WTO tariffs whilst leaving the EU with a hole in its finance (£10 Billion down) and with export tariffs to the UK.

      If I was part of the UK negotiating team, I don’t think I would feel that I had no cards to play.

      If I am correct about the above, it is odd that these arguments have not made it in to the public domain yet – unless that is all part of the plan?

    211. Dr Jim says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Saltires the full length of the bridge oh now wouldn’t that be brilliant watching how the media try to avoid showing them on the telly as they try just to focus on some luminary tosser royal personage

      Sean Connery all kilted up to cut the tape now that would really upset them
      Would that not be a great day for a big flag waving turnout for us lot to attend wae oor good shoes oan an a’thing

    212. Macandroid says:

      YES Bikers first over the bridge Saltires flying maybe!

      Two groups of marchers, one from North, other from South, led by newest refugees one one side, people facing deportation on the other. Then FM & ex FM, Yessers MPs & MSPS.

    213. manandboy says:

      The National agreed months ago that printing The McCrone Report in The National is a good idea.

      Still waiting.

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      YES Bikers first over the bridge – Yay!

      Bit of a smell in here by the way, where’s Paula with the air freshener?

    215. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Dr Jim something in ma watter tells me there might be a YESSERS CONVOY both ways on the bridge that day.

    216. Capella says:

      SLab adamant that Labour will not co-operate with progressive SNP in spite of Fabian Society paper urging a coalition to stop the Tories.

      “There is nothing progressive about the SNP, which seeks to harm our economy by breaking away from our biggest trading partner. That’s why there will be no support from Scottish Labour for a second independence referendum. Under the SNP, Tory austerity is simply being passed on in Scotland, with the Nationalists planning a £327million cut to valued local services in 2017. That is not progressive – it is a budget a Tory Chancellor would be proud of.”

      They sound chronically stupid and ill-informed. Vindictive too.

      “If Labour is privileged enough to be in a position to put a programme for government in front of MPs in the future, SNP MPs will have to choose to support a Labour or a Tory government.”

      This from the Party that trails third in Scotland.
      from The National:

    217. galamcennalath says:

      The Bridge (I enjoyed the TV series but won’t digress), Oor New Bridge …. a royal will inevitably be invited to open it 🙁

    218. mike d says:

      I agree with the comments on here,any flagship enterprise that has come to fruition under the snp,should have a grand opening day. That would stick in peoples minds more than the yoons snp baaad sh**e.

    219. Fireproofjim says:

      Re Orkney Stone Age civilisation.
      I thought the programme was very interesting. I know everybody’s favourite Unionist was fronting it but that did not detract from the fact that Orkney was depicted as the heart and founder of a unique civilisation founded five hundred years before Stonehenge, and where stone circles and magnificent buildings in stone were more or less invented.
      If anything it depicted Orkney as the leader from whom all ideas flowed to the rest of the islands of Britain. Good for Orkney and good for Scotland I would say. It will certainly be good for their tourist industry. I will certainly watch the next programmes. Just ignore the flowing haired one!

    220. Les Wilson says:

      galamcennalath says:

      Well who invites them, let’s find out and pr-empt with a NO.

      It is Scottish and what happened with the border railway should not happen again, a frigging disgrace.
      But the Yoons will have their media plans already, hail the UK!
      makes me sick.

      Let’s get the group who had it built,and Nicola cutting the ribbon.With large saltires in the back ground.
      Also like the idea of a YES motorbike rally, across and back, get the flags flying.
      That would give the Yoons a field day, but who gives a F…!

    221. Capella says:

      From Stu’s twitter – tweet from SLab’s Ian Smart condemning the Baby Boxes having a poem written by a “woman from Bishopbriggs writing doggerel”.

      That would be the Scottish Makar, Jackie Kay’s poem “Welcome Wee One”, he is referring to.

      A poem by a man from Dumfries would have been more appropriate apparently.

    222. Jim says:

      Why, if you type, ‘Scotland’s baby box’ into google images we are subjected to screen captures of Spanner and his hordes slagging the initiative off.

    223. Effijy says:

      Our new on Budget, on time bridge could be named the
      Queen Elizabeth the First of Scotland Bridge.
      We didn’t have that Bald Headed English one from Blackadder.

      How about the Last Queen’s Bridge?

      We can’t have 25% of Scottish Kids living in poverty while
      we watch a select few riding in Gold Carriages with Gold bejewelled Crowns on their napper.

      Queen Camilla of Scotland is not One that One Wants!

    224. galamcennalath says:

      I see the delusional lunatics at the Change Britain group have produced more fodder for the Telegraph …

      Britain will become a “beacon of global free trade” and create nearly 400,000 new jobs if it quits the customs union as part of the Brexit negotiations, it has been suggested.

      An analysis by Change Britain, a group with the backing of Michael Gove, said that leaving the European Union’s customs union and striking trade agreements with just eight foreign countries will create hundreds of thousands of jobs in manufacturing and service industries.

      … exactly who are they trying to kid?

      I’m a Scot, get me out of here.

    225. bugsbunny says:

      Everyone should read the letters page of today’s National. Councillor Fraser McAllister of Musselburgh has set the cat amongst the pigeons by discussing the Elephant in the room, the rUK expats and the Pensioners. Two group that 3 to 1 voted for the Union. Add the fact that most are retirres like the fact they get freebies via the SNP Scottish Government but don’t want to break ties with London and this problem will only increase.

      And I’ll add my tuppence worth. Unless someone is that disabled/old that they are housebound and very seldom leave the house, then they should only be the ones allowed a postal vote. Lazy F*cks who can always make it to the pub/chinese/chippie/football/bookies should not get the Postal vote. That was designed for the housebound, not the piss artists.

      Remember ruthie commenting about the overwhelming NO votes at 4pm on Referendum Day? And some areas were reported to have returned 97% NO vote via Postal Votes. 97 f**cking%. They’re taking the piss.

      Maybe taking the vote away from Non Scot Students, Holiday Home Owners, doing something about the Postal Votes Scams could have made the difference, without worrying about where someone was born? A couple bragged a couple of months ago about voting in the Referendum 2 years ago. And they lived full time in London. It’s time we wised up. Postal Vote Rigging will cost us the next referendum. We need to make a change to the law now. Not then. Then will be too late.

    226. gus1940 says:

      galam– @12.56

      Manufacturing precisely what that can’t be manufactured cheaper and to a higher quality in China or elsewhere?

      All that has been mentioned, apart from Arms, is Jam and Biscuits for which there is apparently a massive worldwide unrequited demand so far for the English variety.

    227. Legerwood @9.48
      I admire your faith in the Establishment.
      The Queensferry Crossing may be the people’s choice; but hold the front page. ‘Grass roots’ support will miraculously appear, The QE 2 Bridge ‘re-naming’ will suddenly surface, especially if one of the royals will be invited North to the Colony to open it.
      Like Saddam and Gaddafi, the Royals’ names are plastered on everything Up Here.
      The Prince William Bridge perhaps?

    228. sandycraig says:

      Thepnr 2.33am

      I agree totally with you. I don’t post that often simply because sometimes by the time I catch up after a couple of days, anything I have thought about has already been said by many of the regulars on here.

      That’s what is good about this site tho, the posters are intelligent people who have something to say, sometimes a bit repetitive but who cares. The oftener things are said the more chance we have of remembering items which can be used to combat arguments.

      Then along comes someone like” boeor” with the interesting stuff about EU trade agreements which really hadn’t been mentioned in that way before, and it makes us all think a bit more about that aspect of brexit.

      ScottieDog 8.56

      Interesting about the Alaskan Oil Fund. Just lets you see how we get the worst of all bargains in this most devolved parliament in the whole of the universe.

      And while I’m at it, what an erse that long haired one was last night. Because of the significance of the Orkney dig, I knew someone who worked on that, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Aye what a fool I was. He just canny help himself promoting the union. There was absolutely no reason for him to mention that in that programme.

      Queensferry Crossing opening, how about the wee lassie wi the Saltire during the referendum, accompanied by one of our senior citizens.

    229. yesindyref2 says:

      Talking about pie in the sky, and wondering what flight it was passing over to the south of me, here’s a bit of fun, look at the number of planes in the air.

    230. Brian Powell says:


      Gove hasn’t grasped any jobs will be in the other countries, unless labour rates here become much lower than the other countries!

    231. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think this comment from an anonymous BLiS spokesperson, indicates a total lack of appropriate skills within BLiS. It also highlights their narrow BritNat world view.

      A Scottish Labour spokesperson said: “Labour is a socialist party. The SNP most certainly isn’t. The driving force behind Labour is the desire to help people get on in life, no matter their background. It’s about people, not a line on a map.

      “There is nothing progressive about the SNP, which seeks to harm our economy by breaking away from our biggest trading partner. That’s why there will be no support from Scottish Labour for a second independence referendum.

      Theoretically illiterate and completely lacking in historical appreciation (McCrone), vision or imagination. Was that you Duncs?

      Though the SNP may not be socialist, their main policy is in support of Scots accessing their inaleable “Right to Development”. I don’t know about you but that sounds pretty progressive to me. How odd is that?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full rea
      lization of the right of peoples to self-determination,
      which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

    232. Les Wilson says:

      All things Scottish are English,apparently.

      Yup, I would bet on the sense of occasion being broken by the English needing to put their fingerprints on all things Scottish.
      They need Scotland, like a junkie needs cocain.

    233. bjsalba says:

      I see sensibledave is rabbitting on about how the EU can’t manage without the UK contribution of the “£10 Billion net per annum that we currently pay to the EU”.

      I suggest a visit to this site

      There is a table there of all the net contributions from 2006 to 2014 – in Euros I’m afraid – but it is easy to see that our net contribution has fluctuated wildly over the years.

      The EU have had six months to work out how to do without the money from the UK – and it will be almost 9 months when Article 50 is finally triggered. I reckon they will have several budget plans all contingent on what the UK negotiating team comes up with.

    234. bugsbunny says:


      I would like to see Sean Connery open the 3rd Forth Bridge. Unionist will whine, “He’s a multi millionaire who doesn’t live in Scotland, doesn’t pay taxes and hasn’t got a vote”. My reply? “Same as Lizzie then, except Sean’s one of us”. She can purr off.

    235. defo says:

      “Manufacturing precisely what that can’t be manufactured cheaper and to a higher quality in China or elsewhere?”

      Fake Democracy ?


      Resentment of the ‘other’ ?

      The illusion that Uk/Britain doesn’t = England ?

      Andra’s weave ? A hair hat like his looks pretty discount already. Trumps cast offs probs.

      Jacob Rees-Mogg ? Genetic science can’t quite match 300 years of in-breeding just yet.

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. The Fabian Society claims to be a broad church, though during indyref1 they appeared to be wholeheartedly BritNat and rather anti-Scottish. The Fabian Society has predominantly English members who will most probably be concerned with local issues and the prospects for ‘socialism’ in an English context. I’m not sure if many of them will have lived under a political system characterised by a “democratic deficit”.


    237. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.P.S. As in, not particularly helpful to Scotland. 😉

    238. John Dickson says:

      My Household Income went down in 2016 owing to redundancy and a distinct lake of work opportunities where I live. And is now 14% of what it was. That will be even less in February when my JSA defaults from contribution based to income based and they add my wife’s paltry pittance and decide I don’t qualify for help.

    239. call me dave says:


      We don’t get out enough 🙂 I often have a look at that or similar.

      Shipping too!


      Battle of Kings: Bannockburn

      Just appeared on 123movies. Worth a watch. 🙂

      Put title in search box when you get in.

    240. gus1940 says:

      I formed a positive opinion re Sanjeev Kohli’s program as it brilliantly exposed the patronising negative stereotyping of the Scots.

      Re TV programs – a couple of days ago I watched a documentary about The Battle of El Alamein. It told the story of the terrible casualties suffered by the infantry involved.

      Funnily enough the only units mentioned as being involved in the initial infantry assault were The Highlanders, New Zealanders and an Indian Division – no mention of units from our partners in The Glorious Union Of (alleged) Equals.

      I was reminded of General Wolfe’s remarks concerning his Highland troops.

      Yesterday I watched an American documentary introduced by ex-Gen Wesley Clarke in which he attempted to justify while glorifying in typical US manner the US Invasion of Panama courtesy of Dubya’s Old Man. The operation was ludicrously named ‘Operation Just Cause’.

      One is left wondering at the monstrous hypocrisy of The US regarding its attacks on the recent actions of Russia.

    241. galamcennalath says:

      Brian Powell says:

      … any jobs will be in the other countries, unless labour rates here become much lower …

      Which I suspect is exactly what some on the hard right would like to happen in a post Brexit UK – rock bottom wages and a rock bottom pound. Then they imagine the UK being competitive. And, to Hell with ordinary folks.

      That’s always the problem with right wing politics, they can appear beguilingly simple to the gullible. Then the gullible are the first to get shafted.

    242. call me dave says:

      Brexit: UK’s top EU diplomat Sir Ivan Rogers resigns

      All going along nicely then!

    243. Legerwood says:

      Jack Collatin says:
      3 January, 2017 at 1:03 pm
      Legerwood @9.48
      “”I admire your faith in the Establishment.””


      The ‘Establishment’ to which you refer would be in this case the Scottish Government of course.

      Although how you have managed to infer ‘faith’ in anything especially something as ephemeral as the ‘Establishment’ from my more or less straightforward answer is puzzling.

    244. sensibledave says:

      bjsalba at 1:17 pm

      You wrote: “I see sensibledave is rabbitting on about how the EU can’t manage without the UK contribution of the “£10 Billion net per annum that we currently pay to the EU”.

      …. I never said that the EWU can’t mange without our contribution! By all means have a view, but please don’t make a straw man argument up out of mine – it makes you look silly.

      We export roughly 220 billion to EU. At 4% Tariff the EU countries will “gain” £8.8 Billion in Taxes. EU exports £290 billion to UK. At 4%, that relates to £11.6 Billion. Add back UK not paying the £8 to £10 billion net that we currently pay – and the UK, on that narrow measure is between £10.8 and £12.8 Billion better off per annum being out of the EU.

      I am not saying that is the whole argument (i didn’t vote to leave) but as a negotiating position, its probably a very good start.

      bjsalba, if you have an issue with the logic of the above or dispute the numbers then please, by all means, share. If you just want to look like someone without the ability to think – then just carry on as you are.

    245. galamcennalath says:

      gus1940 says:

      … glorifying in typical US manner the US Invasion of Panama …

      It’s all part of the ‘American Way’. They have behaved like this all the time they have existed. Perhaps you could say they learnt from the Brits!

      US military policy has always been intertwined with the needs of their corporations.

      The so called Banana Wars, for example. Half a century of military involvement driven to protect and enhance the power of fruit growing companies.

      I have always thought the US is a country which it would be dangerous to cross, but immoral to blindly side with. It needs handled wisely.

    246. Robert Kerr says:


      No No No. “Queen Elizabeth of Scots” No need for a number. She was never queen of Scotland.

      Anyway she was never crowned nor even alloyed to touch any of the “Honours of Scotland”

      Watch this film. “The regalia were carried in the procession at the express wish of her Majesty”

      From Wiki

      “Only within Scotland did the title Elizabeth II cause controversy as there had never been an Elizabeth I in Scotland. In an act of sabotage, new Royal Mail post boxes in Scotland, bearing the royal cypher EIIR, were vandalised, after which, to avoid further problems, post boxes and Royal Mail vehicles in Scotland bore only the Crown of Scotland. A legal case, MacCormick v. Lord Advocate (1953 SC 396), was taken to contest the right of the Queen to title herself Elizabeth II within Scotland, arguing that to do so would be a breach of the Act of Union. The case, however, was lost on the grounds that the pursuers had not title to sue the Crown and the numbering of monarchs was part of the Royal Prerogative, and thus not governed by the Act of Union.”


      “Less publicised controversies included the argument that the monarch was addressed as Your Grace in the pre-union Kingdom of Scotland (the monarchs of Renaissance England had been called both “Your Grace” and “Your Majesty”[12]) and that the standard title had been King/Queen of Scots (rex/reg scotorum) rather than of Scotland (rex/reg scotia). At the opening ceremony of the devolved Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh in 1999, attended by the Queen, the Presiding Officer Lord Steel said at the close of his opening address: “It is good that today, once again, we the elected representatives of the people are able to welcome your majesty, not only as Queen of the United Kingdom, but seated as you are among us, to greet you in the historic and constitutionally correct manner, with warmth and affection, as Queen of Scots.”

      This stuff is dynamite and the Brit Establishment know that!

    247. Dan Huil says:

      The uk’s top EU diplomat chappie resigns. Who’ll replace him, if anybody? Who cares. Westminster continues to be clueless about brexit. Everything looks set for a complete dog’s breakfast, with the so-called united kingdom disintegrating further as a result. The constitutionally feart and congenitally narrow-minded won’t be able to ignore it.

    248. Lenny Hartley says:

      SD you state ” we” export 220 billion worth of goods ss services to EU. How much of that is due to Financial Services passporting rights, how much is Oil and Gas , ex regio and UK continental shelf (eg Scotland ) and how much other from Scotland. Face it ur fcuk’do

    249. Breeks says:

      Dan Huil says:
      3 January, 2017 at 2:13 pm

      The uk’s top EU diplomat chappie resigns. Who’ll replace him, if anybody?….

      Me! Me! Me! Me! Ha ha ha.

      Make that “Moooohahahaaaa”.

    250. Fred says:

      Lets start the New Year by ignoring trolls, we went through all this shite at Xmas, some folk jist cannae help themsel!

    251. Giving Goose says:

      Is it possible to start a petition or social media campaign to have someone Scottish open the new bridge?

    252. ScottieDog says:

      Indeed agreements will be reached. The UK runs a trade deficits with the EU hence there’s is a strong incentive for european governments to protect their exports. I did actually say this from the start.
      Sadly the ‘benefits’ of ‘sovereignty’ being returned to the UK will only be felt by the few and to the detriment of most of us.
      Let’s face it this was never about £10bn. Anyone who believes this doesn’t understand macro economics.

    253. Sinky says:

      Herald gives a would be Edinburgh labour Councillor an Agenda slot for saying absolutely nothing new or incisive.

      What next a Dog Food Salesman as a top economic expert?

      We live in stange times

    254. call me dave says:

      @Robert Kerr

      Thanks for that Robert. It’s a long time since I saw the full version. They were popular once upon a time.

      I was of an age then to be paraded along with the full primary school from Hill of Beath to Cowdenbeath to wave as the rolls royce with Queenie & Dukie swept slowly past, with the windows up. 🙁

      Geez it was a cold day she was going Kelty bound…why I don’t know.

    255. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says: 3 January, 2017 at 12:02 am:

      ” … Hey, it’s all good – when some of get tired, we can and do have a break because we always know there’s someone else to keep it all going.
      ‘To-me, to-you, to-me, to-you’ and all that Chuckly palaver.

      Thing is, Ian, sometimes everyday life gets in the way. Medical appointments, getting prescriptions and getting them from the pharmacy. Taking the dog to the vet for her check up. Getting in the weekly shopping, fixing the broken garden gate.

      Oh! and sometimes we even need to sleep a whiles.

    256. Robert Peffers says:

      @Meg merrilees says: 3 January, 2017 at 12:29 am:

      “Maybe we should start a campaign to have it called the ‘Sir Andy Murray’ crossing/bridge.”

      Matter of fact it is the fourth major Forth Bridge if we count the Kincardine Bridge.

      We can thus call it the, “Fourth-Forth Bridge”, or simply, “The Fourth Bridge”.

      That would confuse the foreign visitors from England who know so very little about our country of Scotland and ignorantly believe it is all part of, “Their country”, while believing that their country is actually Britain/England/United Kingdom.

    257. clipper says:

      Good to see no one’s feeding the troll except for one at 2.31 who has something so massively important to say

    258. Robert Peffers says:

      @wilma mcneill says: 3 January, 2017 at 12:39 am:

      “Had a baby box delivered in 1961 on the birth of my 1st son was the S>N>P> in gov. NO???”

      Yes Dear! But without the context that claim could mean anything. For example when I bought by present wee Papillion Bitch from a breeder I got a Puppy box. It came from a batch of pet goods suppliers touting for business. You know the thing – free samples of the stuff they wanted to convince you to buy. Not free samples but a decent supply of things to aid the family raise the new arrival at a time probably expensive enough for them anyway.

      So what if I asked you, “where did your Baby Box come from? Your partner or the child’s father?”

      Now I’m not inferring anything bad by that question – just showing how things can be very, very misleading when used out of context.

      The Yoon political parties, the dead tree press and the national propaganda broadcasters do it all the time and so do Yoon Loon Goons.

    259. AlistairGrapevine says:

      Robert Peffers says :- “Matter of fact it is the fourth major Forth Bridge if we count the Kincardine Bridge”.

      We can thus call it the, “Fourth-Forth Bridge”, or simply, “The Fourth Bridge”.

      As there is two crossings at Kincardine by your logic it would be the ‘Fifth-Forth Bridge.

    260. davidb says:


      Just passed through Morrisons. I noticed English Country Life spreadable butter which has dropped the apron packaging. Its dated 24th Feb. Their stock dated 20th Feb still has the boycotted design. There may be another reason of course, but it is to be hoped that they have discovered the negative marketing value of that flag.

      I for one refuse to but any product sporting that flag, and will pay more to buy an alternative product without it.

      Here’s hoping.

    261. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 3 January, 2017 at 12:51 am:

      “What on earth is Jackie Baillie doing in Burnley?”

      Oh! Probably the same old thing as usual – stuffing her face.

    262. sensibledave says:

      Clipper 3.10

      … I assume your definition of a Troll is someone that thinks for themselves and tries for reasoned debate instead of “everything not SNP is BAAAAAD”?

      You tell me Clipper. Is Scotland going to be part of the UK when we Brexit? IF no, when is indyref2? If yes, what deal would you attempt to do?

      You have no idea do you Clipper? You are waiting to be told the “party line” and then you can fall in line like a sheep and throw stones at everyone that has a different view!

      And lets be honest here, the biggest problem the SNP has at the moment is trying to find a position where they can demonstrate disagreement with everyone else and yet not find themselves in agreement with anyone. Theresa May, and I, were “Remainers” – it sounds like Ms Sturgeon and the troops agree with us – which is a bit of a problem isn’t it.

      I guess, like many here, because democracy has gone against you (and me), you would prefer that your neighbours in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland actually suffer hardship – as a punishment for the result of indyref?

    263. Robert Peffers says:

      @manandboy says: 3 January, 2017 at 1:21 am:

      ” … It will soon be time for every No voter in Scotland to GROW UP AND THINK – LIKE AN ADULT.”

      I’d settle for them just thinking for themselves, manandboy.

    264. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s a nice one, I usually use
      though it punishes me for using adblocker by starting me in the middle of the Sahara Desert! Which is kind of funny 🙂

      What’s interesting is that the MV Isle of Arran has been footering around off Arran, while Caldonian Isles and Hebridean Isles are doing the run. Presumably a ferry change is going to happen while one of the two goes off for servicing or something.

      Mmm, I’ve managed to put off doing some work for 4 hours now, wonder how much longer I can go on …

    265. Dan Huil says:

      “What on earth is Jackie Baillie doing in Burnley?”

      Life without parole? [Sorry, Burnley].

    266. clipper says:

      O/T kind of.

      Due to a combination of Yesser apathy and bad timing by the organisers, probably a bit more of the former, the 50,000 DVD crowdfund is failing.

      Wondering if someone could fill me in on how these things work. If the target is not reached by the target date what happens to funds already donated? Is it possible for them (the organisers) to just start a new crowdfund using the existing campaign, web pages etc and rolling over funds already donated into it but obviously extending the timeline?

      With rising distrust and disgust – take your pick I’m up for both – of the bbc, the billboards going up later this month, simultaneously the DVD campaign could have had 50,000 DVD’s circulating around the country showing in clear and unambiguous terms exactly what the bbc in Scotland is. Each DVD has the potential to be seen by at least several people. The combination of these factors could really signal the beginning of a fairly quick end to the bbc in Scotland, or as we know it anyway.

      Anyone who supports truth over lies and who has a spare fiver or tenner really should help out with this.

      Also I’m not an SNP member and I’ve only ever been on the site briefly once or twice, but if it’s as useless as some on here say, it’s almost unbelievable that the SG/SNP isn’t putting more resources into it. What’s wrong with these people? They could easily and probably cheaply turn it into a Yes vote winner but, like the National, you can’t help but sometimes find yourself wondering if they’re really bothered. SNP members should be demanding answers from them regarding this.

    267. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tackety Beets says: 3 January, 2017 at 2:20 am:

      ” … Not trying to be a smart ass but Im sure I knew it existed in the 80’s ?
      Did some of us discuss it in ’79 ?”

      You bet we did but that, as usual, was ignored by the Westminster Establishment’s Propaganda Wing of Broadcasters and Dead Tree Trolls Press.

      “Yer an addiction aa tell yee!”

      I much prefer the term dedicated to addicted, Tackety.

    268. Thepnr says:


      Glad you highlighted the London Calling fundraiser. I hope it can reach the target, still 17 days to go so there’s hope yet.

      I think the timing rather that Yesser apathy has been the biggest factor, not really a good time of year to attempt any fundraising I would have thought.

    269. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 regarding Arran boats, the Cally isles is leaving for refit after last sailing tonight, due to the sucess of the SNP’s RET scheme , a smaller boat is no longer suitable even in winter to replace the Cally Isles. so the Heb Isles and Arran will be working as per summer timetable until the end of Jan.

    270. bugsbunny says:

      “What on Earth is Jackie Baillie doing in Burnley?”

      She’s probably listening to a male voice choir singing….
      ….”Who ate all the pies? who ate all the pies? You Fat Bastard, you Fat Bastard, you ate all the pies!”

    271. davidb says:

      Re Jabba and Burnley ?

    272. Undeadshuan says:

      Uk’s EU ambassador resigns, probably because he was truthfull in assessing timescale to be 10 year.

    273. MJT says:


      In terms of party political strategy, i don’t think the SNP top brass consider it a good move to associate with anything that directly states that the BBC/BBC Scotland is biased.

      If they, the party, was to openly contribute moneys to such an enterprise, in this case funding DVDs of the London Calling documentary, it might open them up to attack.

      I know that links/shares to and of the documentary were prevalent on my facebook feed from fellow SNP members, but that’s a little different in much the same way that on twitter folks often have the ‘views are my own’ disclaimer.

      I guess it can’t hurt for you, me, or anyone to contact our MP/MSPs to get an official line though.

    274. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      Thanks for that. Yes, RET is very successful, and leading the demand for more and more ferries. The way Calmac move ferries around is an advert for having one operator, preferably as with Calmac, effectively state controlled.

      But Calmac do need to get the Coruisk back on the Armadale-Mallaig run this year. Prioritising Mull over Skye is not on.

    275. Tinto Chiel says:

      gus1940 @1.49:

      Re. El Alamein and use of “foreign” troops, you have to remember Field Marshal Montgomery needed his 51st Highland Division at his side when things got tough.

      As he said himself, “Of the many fine divisions that served under me in the Second World War, none were finer than the Highland Division. It was the only infantry division in the armies of the British Empire that accompanied me during the whole of the long march from Alamein to Berlin.”

      A dubious honour, methinks, for those incredibly brave men.

    276. woosie says:


      Keep on leaving the union jack labeled products on the shelf! I also never buy any of these; shops should be encouraged to stock local produce. There are plenty of great brands in milk, cheese, butter, etc, coming out of Scotland now. Imagine the growth after indy in home-grown products!

      Also wheeled around at M&S today, no National on sale. If you ask, usual response is either “not enough demand” or “sold out”. Always plenty of mails and expresses left though.

      Also great to see trolls ignored more.

    277. galamcennalath says:

      My personal gripe about the SNP website is it no longer seems to have a RSS newsfeed. It used to, but stopped working. When it did, I was aware of every press release.

      ‘Everyone’ else has RSS … WoS, ScotPop, iScot, Bateman, Greens, Scot Socialists, Bella etc etc.. All dead tree, except interestingly TheNational. All news broadcasters.

      It’s how I monitor news via an app (Newsify) on phone and tablet. So I never see SNP press releases now.

      They really should get this sorted. If every other website thinks it’s worth having RSS, so should the SNP!

    278. frogesque says:

      Re naming the new Forth Crossing.

      How about naming it the John Cousin Crossing and maybe allow his widow to cut the tape and make the first official trip as a tribute?

    279. galamcennalath says:

      First across the bridge? Well, there is the first official crossing after the official opening.

      However, at some point the first vehicle is actually going to be driven across. It may have happened? Have all gaps been closed? Is the surface in place?

      Some lucky sod working in the construction team is going to be the real first to make the journey! It may not even be reported, but the driver will never forget it!

    280. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fred says: 3 January, 2017 at 9:28 am:

      “Lochside is correct, I’ve said for yonks that the SNP need a clued-up press officer to refute this Union shit on a daily basis and it’s worse it’s getting!”

      Oh! Come on! Fred. Do you imagine the SNP are zipped up the back?

      Do you imagine this has not been tried before?

      Of course it has – and failed.

      Failed not because of the many, “Press Officers”, doing a bad job, but failed because, like taking horses to water, the message WAS taken to the press. but failed because the press did not print it.

      Same goes for the Broadcasters, The Press and the Broadcasters are all parts of the Westminster Establishment’s Propaganda wing. They, like the horses taken to water, decide what they will print and what they will not print.

      The SNP press releases all get filed in the little wickerwork file cabinet at the right hand corner of the Editor’s desk – but not before the editors have scanned them to see if the SNP’s press release can be twisted into an, “SNP BAAD”, story.

      Has the Rev Stu taught you nothing?

      Here’s facts :-

      There must be press releases going to the Yoon Propaganda wing for them to make up SNP BAAD items and articles about them.

      What would therefore be gained by paying someone extra to make even more press SNP or SG releases? Just remember the Alex Salmond lengthy explanation made to Wee liar Robinson on live TV. Made into an SNP BAAD story by the BBC Editors and then the claim that Salmond had not answered Robinson’s question.

      Who controls what is printed and broadcast? Not the SNP or SG – that is reserved for the media itself and Westminster who issue Broadcast transmission licences.

      Have not the Westminster Establishment recently also re-established the 77th Brigade in order to attempt to suppress social media news outlets?

      Westminster controls UK broadcast licences and thus who is allowed to be broadcasters to the British Public. It is why many Wingers now listen and view non-UK licenced broadcasters.

      Yet hardly a day goes by without someone on Wings being highly critical of the SNP for NOT broadcasting or getting the British Propaganda wing to broadcast or the Dead Tree Trolls to print items favourable to the SNP.

      You can take a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink.

      You can send a press release to the Media but you cannot make the media propagate it.

      It is illogical to, on the one hand, decry the biased media and on the other hand blame the SNP for the media’s deliberate deficiencies.

    281. K1 says:

      That video on Rev’s twitter from People’s Momentum is causing a real backlash against this so called ‘progressive’ part of the Labour movement. It depicts Europeans from France, Germany and Holland as gloating about how their nationalised railways are funded by ‘British’ people. I think it was a ‘failed’ attempt at attacking the privatisation of the UK railways. But they are getting skelped tae the back of beyond for this. Epic Fail…as they say.

      Check it out on Rev’s twitter, I won’t put it up here. And those who have twitter, voice yer views.

    282. galamcennalath says:

      Talking of transport … this video is what trade unions should all be doing ….

      You could make the same point with electricity.

    283. frogesque says:

      @galamcennalath 4.36

      Not yet, there was still a gap when we looked as we crossed the Forth Road Bridge. Should be linked up soon though. Very weather dependant so I guess it will happen when it happens.

    284. Undeadshaun says:


      Its common for the national to be hidden not just in m and s, tescos too.

      Think its some old tory bitter together bastard that does it.

      I always find copies burried under the daily mail.

      So I usually hide all copies of the daily mail under the herald, sun, times and telegraph.

    285. yesindyref2 says:

      I didn’t mean by the way to make it sound like island against island with the ferries, what does happen a fair bit is tourists going over to Mull from Oban to Craignure, then either via Lochaline or Kilchoan, up to Mallaig and over the sea to Skye. Coaches too have cancelled because of the Mallaig-Armadale mess. I’ve read Calmac’s explanation, and it’s not good enough!

    286. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 3 January, 2017 at 10:06 am:

      “Troll Klaxon folks, don’t for god sake bite or it’ll be here all day spouting pish and making stupid demands”

      Better here preaching to we who are mainly unconverted to his spiel than out there preaching to those that may be convertible to his mantra.

      At least we are well able to not just counter his extreme, “British Nationalist”, views but to rubbish them good and properly.

    287. Thepnr says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      I used to share a table at a local watering hole with an old gent who was a soldier in the Blackwatch with the 51st Highland Division during WWII and had fought at El Alemein.

      It was not often he talked of the war but if you prompted him enough he might share a story or two, not of the gruesome type but of the practicalities of his situation.

      One thing he told me that stuck in my mind was that whenever they had to “dig-in” for a place of shelter and a place to sleep, then before they would get in the hole they had dug in the sand they would spray petrol over the dugout then set it on fire.

      This was to kill, the mites that lived in the sand as they would torment the men with their biting when they were trying to sleep.

      Wee stories like this really had me thinking. What a nightmare.

    288. Someone said have Andy Murray open the new bridge aye and let him carry the union flag that he did for team U.K. Far better the wee lassie who carried the Scottish flag for Scotland god bless you hen

    289. K1 says:

      This is exactly the problem with anyone stating that the SNP should ‘do more’ in terms of ‘fighting back’ against the SNPbad shit as reported in the press: ‘but failed because the press did not print it.’

      And this is the perfect example of why ‘fight back’ is futile: ‘Just remember the Alex Salmond lengthy explanation made to Wee liar Robinson on live TV. Made into an SNP BAAD story by the BBC Editors and then the claim that Salmond had not answered Robinson’s question’

      The thing about that particular episode is that we all recall it so well because the referendum was in full swing and quite literally thousands and thousands of more people were ‘switched on’ regarding the BBC bias during the lead up to the vote. This would have been a ‘wee’ thing noticed by the ‘political geeks’ back in the day, without social media and the likes of Wings and other forums to spread the ‘fire’ that caught after that broadcast the level of exposure of this blatant episode would never have happened.

      The yes movement is alive, there is no ‘peak’ SNP, the very fact that the unionist press is so eager to push the message of ‘no referendum’ propaganda et al is because they know they are losing yer ‘average’ No voter since Brexit. Yes is solid, it’s not going to evaporate, we just keep keeping everyone informed who isn’t as ‘clued’ up as we are…about the lies and the bias.

      It’s already happening, we are making progress, I’m with Robert on this: ‘It is illogical to, on the one hand, decry the biased media and on the other hand blame the SNP for the media’s deliberate deficiencies.

    290. galamcennalath says:

      K1 says:

      … gloating about how their nationalised railways are funded by ‘British’ people. I think it was a ‘failed’ attempt at attacking the privatisation of the UK railways.

      I watched the vid but didn’t bother reading comments. Perhaps I should 🙂

      Yes, I can see it is bad taste to use Europeans gloating.

      However, the theme did gel with me. What sort of lunatic state sells off its essential public services? And, Europeans must think we are a bunch of plonkers post Brexit vote.

      But, yes, there could have been a better way to highlight how profits from running our services are being used to subside their services, without gloating.

    291. gerry parker says:

      Flew over bridges yesterday, photo’s here:

      Photo 2 shows the span (s) to be completed

    292. Thepnr says:


      I watched the video and didn’t see the Europeans as gloating, I saw the video highlighting the stupidity of selling off public assets to the private sector.

      It’s not just the railways of course, even the buses in our towns and cities were privatised. When National Express gave up the east Coast line it came back into public ownership for a brief period.

      Guess what? It started making a profit, a very good profit in public hands then it was promptly sold off again and is now run by Virgin and no doubt making a profit. That profit though is no longer going to the treasury but into private hands.

      British Gas, British Airways, BP, the Post Office FFS profitable business with the profits now going to the few not the many.

      I don’t want to even start on Electricity and Water!

    293. mike d says:

      Undeadshaun 4.53 every time i come home,heading for ayrshire,copies of the national on the bottom shelve (which i quickly remedy)or buried beneath yoon sh**e rags. Most places unless in early sold out. I think by now the demand for more copies should be addressed by the publishers. Unless of course there’s an ulterior motive.?

    294. Cactus says:

      Liking the idea of people’s gathered both sides, for the launching of our newest and latest bridge crossing, with many more to come..

      SO take a hand of mine and do it for your Auld Lang Syne.

      Crossed arms across the bridge.

    295. Cactus says:

      Upon independence, we break the chains, then we build more bridges.

    296. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      I watched the video and didn’t see the Europeans as gloating, I saw the video highlighting the stupidity of selling off public assets to the private sector.

      Me too. But after K1’s post and reading Twitter responses, others do see it as gloating.

      I can be a bit insensitive to other people’s (more sensitive) reactions!

    297. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Wee stories like this really had me thinking. What a nightmare.”

      Indeed, Thepnr. We have been very lucky to have avoided stuff like that.

      My childhood pal’s uncle fought at El Alamein after the initial barrage and got a bad arm wound which got infested with maggots. He was no fan of Bernard Law Montgomery and felt the wounded had been largely forgotten about. When he eventually received medical attention he was told the maggots had kept his wound clean and probably saved his arm. Of course this grim detail was lapped up by us wee boys.

      Our lollipop man was a WW1 veteran and told us (censored) tales of a place called “Hill 60”. It was only when I grew up I found out about Ypres and Paesschendaele and the horrors he must have seen. He was from Rutherglen or Ru’glen, the old local pronunciation you rarely here today, I think, but was still used by oldies in EK.

      Nowadays I value even more even these remote, second-hand links with our history.

      By the way, Yesindyref2 and call me dave: thanks for the links to those tracking sites. Great time-wasters, and I mean that in a good way. I have a terrible cold just now and am not sleeping too well so I can track overhead traffic. Unfortunately I’m quite far from the coast.

    298. terry says:

      @davidb says:

      3 January, 2017 at 3:26 pm

      Hi David B. I noticed that post EU referendum Aldi’s and Lidl’s were bigging up the Union Jack too. I was getting really fed up it all. I don’t really want to see flags on food – isn’t it enough just to write country of origin? Thankfully they seem to have now toned it down which is good as I was running out of places to shop!

      I love the baby boxes. If the mumpers out there aren’t happy they can donate the cash instead to charity. However the inclusive approach of every baby being offered one is admirable. Also the success of other initiatives like Childsmile and Bookbugs whereby kids get free books from birth and libraries put on sessions for families with songs and stories are ace. They’ve made a difference to young families. Can you imagine within the strictures of our devolved parliament the govt has achieved this – then what could they achieve with independence? Sigh!

    299. Cactus says:

      If we’re all gathered there.. we might as well have a ceilidh..

      Boys to the left, girls to the right.

    300. Legerwood says:

      Thepnr @ 5.26.

      In 2015-16 the Train Operating Companies (TOCs) made net premium payments to Government of £817 million – the 6th year in a row when premium payments have been made to Government.

      Since 2010-11 the Government’s support to the TOCs has partially offset the support paid by the Government to the Todd and in 2015-16 the majority of tocs made premium payments to the Government that were sufficient to cover the Gov support to the minority of TOCs as leave a net premium payment to Gov of £817 million.

      Both Virgin East Coast and Virgin West Coast were among the majority of TOCs who made premium payments to the Gov.

      The TOCs in receipt of Government support tended to be the smaller regional companies.

      Direct Rail Support from the Government in 2015-16 totalled around £4.8 billion of which £4 billion went to Network Rail, the nationalised part of the Railways. Network Rail has debts of £41 billion.

      The Tocs paid £2.4 billion to Network Rail to cover track access charges.

      The rest of the Direct Grant goes to Crossrail (£800 million), HS2 (£430 million) and around £120 million to PTEs etc.

      All of the figures are set out each year by the Office of Rail and Road in their Rail Finances Statistical Release.

    301. Dan Huil says:

      We can be sure that Davidson, Dugdale, whatshisname and the bbc will all be desperately hoping something goes wrong with the opening of the new bridge.

    302. Legerwood says:

      terry says:
      3 January, 2017 at 5:58 pm
      @davidb says:

      3 January, 2017 at 3:26 pm

      “”Hi David B. I noticed that post EU referendum Aldi’s and Lidl’s were bigging up the Union Jack too.””


      I shop in Lidl every week and have done so for 2 years and what you describe has not been my experience. Far from it. The Saltire has, and is, very much to the fire on a wide range of products. I have seen little if any sign of the Union flag on products.

    303. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi call me dave.

      Thanks for the

      link. Looks like a useful resource.


      Hi Legerwood.

      Lidl’s ‘Chip Shop Steak Pies’ have the butcher’s apron on them, with the slogan ‘British Beef’. (Top right corner.)

    304. Gary45% says:

      Punted the EU train video to a few friends, like most comments I did not find any gloating, but hey if the Europeans are gloating, who can blame them.
      Westminster mismanagement at its best.

      A great big, huge Orcadian strip the willow for the opening of the bridge? with Skerryvore playing it, imagine the sight.
      Oh aye and a wee dram.

    305. Thepnr says:

      Lidl’s ‘Chip Shop Steak Pies’ have the butcher’s apron on them, with the slogan ‘British Beef’. (Top right corner.)

      There you go, where else but Wings would you have found that out?

      Cheers BDTT 🙂

    306. Sarissa says:

      Off topic, but a picture (figure 6) paints a thousand words:

    307. Artyhetty says:


      I remember the sell offs. However the buses, in Edinburgh are still council owned far as I know.
      Scottish water is not privatised, except for business side of things, again as far as I know. Family in england are almost incensed that they pay way over the odds for public transport to private companies, when they hear we have a good bus service, very reasonable prices etc. Probably think as usual that they are subsidising us.

      First buses to E.Lothian were dreadful, now run by East Coast, which is far more accessible, great website, but not sure who owns them though.

      Noticed some serious SNP bashing in some rag saying they haven’t scrapped PFI, so are evil wasters! Rescued pile of Nationals from bottom shelf in shop today, as usual. The shop assistants think I am crazy if I complain to them, so I just put them at optimum height and shove the yoon rags to lower shelves. It happens in all shops, grocers, noticed it in E.Lothian, corner shop last week.

      Fed up of it, as it undemines people having a choice and stinks of anti democracy, and it is widespread, and definitely not accidental!

    308. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      As Legerwood typed, there are a lot of Saltires in Lidl but the odd b.a. crops up, probably for items that are sold ‘dan sarf’ as well.

      BTW: I think I may have found a work around for the problem of a post not appearing for some time after you hit “Submit”. I’ll see what happens with this post. If the work around works again, I’ll post details in ‘off-topic’.

    309. Legerwood says:

      Robert Kerr

      The Honours of Scotland were carried in procession to St Giles in 1953. During the ceremony they were formally presented to the Queen who accepted them then returned them to their Custodians. If I have remembered correctly her acceptance of the Honours was signalled by her touching the Crown.

      There is a painting of this part of the Service here

      Again if I have remembered correctly there was some criticism/disappointment expressed by some that the Queen wore an ordinary dress rather than her Coronation gown for this ceremony.

    310. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      The work around didn’t work.

    311. uno mas says:

      Regarding the ownership of utilities being in foreign hands you will all be aware of course that the extremely profitable Scottish Power is owned by the Spanish company Iberdrola.

      As I live in Spain and my supplier is Iberdrola can I thank all Wingers for subsidising my leccy bill.

      Just sayin´like 🙂 🙂

    312. galamcennalath says:

      Tinto Chiel says:

      Our lollipop man was a WW1 veteran and told us (censored) tales of a place called “Hill 60”.

      My Great Uncle John fought the Turks in Mesopotamia (now Iraq). That’s not my other Great Uncle John who died fighting the Turks in the Sinai.

      Anyways, GU John was in the Highland Light Infantry, the Glasgow regiment. He thrilled his nephews and neices (inc my mother) with uncensored tales of WW1. She told me some which don’t appear to have been censored! Some relating to Ottoman troops behaviour with civilians.

      The tale which stuck with me most was of a different nature. He admitted that as each new officer was appointed, they would be assessed. If the guys deemed him to be an asset in the midst of battle, the officer could expect have some pretty tough guys by his side. Conversely, if the new officer was deemed to have attitudes which made him a liability, they would draw straws, then next time bullets flew the officer tragically fell in action. Tough guys indeed!

      After WWI Great Uncle John was heavily involved in Red Clydeside, the two perhaps not being unrelated.

    313. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair Paterson says: 3 January, 2017 at 4:57 pm:

      ” … Someone said have Andy Murray open the new bridge aye and let him carry the union flag that he did for team U.K. Far better the wee lassie who carried the Scottish flag for Scotland god bless you hen.”

      Stop talking tripe Blair. First of all, for the time being, Scotland is legally still one of only two partner Kingdoms in the United Kingdom.

      As Scotland is not the member of the Olympics Andy Murray could not be a member of a Scotland team for the Olympics.

      Furthermore, the problem that Scotland has is NOT because of the United Kingdom but because the Kingdom of England has illegally dominated the United Kingdom Parliament and made it the actual parliament of the country of England that has set itself up as the master race dictating to the rest of the United Kingdom.

      Westminster has split what is legally a two partner Kingdom into four unequal countries and is treating the full partner kingdom of Scotland as if it were just another of the countries that the Kingdom of England had annexed BEFORE there was a United Kingdom in which Scotland is a full partner.

    314. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 @4.10 I used to be big supporter of cal-Mac but over the last few years their incompetence has severely pissed me off. The number of times that their App is not updated to reflect what is actually happening has cost me and many others substantial inconvenience and cost. I for one would not be bothered if another company got the contract.

    315. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 3.05

      Forth Bridges.

      Not like you to slip up Mr Peffers but there are more than 4 major bridges over the Forth.

      Three at Queensferry, Two at Kincardine, then Stirling Bridge plus at least two carrying major roads, and another for the railway, over the Forth in and around Stirling.

      And goodness knows how many minor bridges beyond Stirling.

      Maybe better to stick with the name that has been chosen and by which it has been known for the last 3 years: the Queensferry Crossing. There was certainly plenty of publicity around the whole exercise at the time.

    316. Cactus says:

      The Queensferry Ceilidh..



    317. Meg merrilees says:

      Robert Peffers @3.05

      Is it not the 5th bridge Robert since we have the Kincardine Bridge and the recently opened Clackmannan Crossing? (not forgetting Stirling Bridge!)

      So the new crossing could become the Forth/fifth bridge or The 45??…

      Mischievous laugh…

    318. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Ledgerwood @ 6.41pm

      Your response to Robert Kerr was just as I remember that day in 1953.

      HM wore a fitted dark coat-dress and a wee hat, she carried a big handbag and I recall reading, perhaps later, that she was criticised as looking as if she had just popped-in to accept the Honours of Scotland, while heading for a shopping trip on Princes Street.

      But, I suppose the way the Great and Good of Scotland back then – they might still be pro-UK, but, not as unashamedly pro-UK as in 1953 – adopted the Scottish Cringe, they were probably happy she had recognised, to some extent, that Scotland was different.

      Same thing applies to the bit part the then Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland was allowed in the Coronation ceremony.

      We Scots were, with a few honourable exceptions, very subservient back then. The growth in Scottish identity and appreciation of our history during the 63-years of HM’s reign has not been at all comfortable for the Establishment. They are losing us, they know this and they do not like it one little bit.

    319. bjsalba says:

      When the media wheel out people like Sillars and Wilson, just remind them that it is now “over quarter of a century” since these people had any position/influence on the party. I find that hits the nail bang on the head.

      It would also be interesting to remember who they were up against.

    320. Tinto Chiel says:

      galamcennalath: very interesting stuff which chimes with tales I have been told. I believe it wasn’t just poor/obnoxious officers who got it from Scottish troops: military police often received such treatment in retaliation for enforcing crazy attacks.

      There is an excellent Cameronian museum in Hamilton which mentions the Turkish theatre of war. It sounds pretty grim: it seems our prisoners were sometimes sexually assaulted.

      Bonus: I found out why old The Redan Bar in Maryhill (?) was so named.

      Smallaxe: if you’re out there, any knowledge of this establishment?

    321. K1 says:

      Anent the trains advert, yes matter of perception, eye of the beholder no doubt, I did get it…but could also see why the backlash…so ah do think it’s a fail in that it has proven ‘divisive’ and not clear in such a way as to prevent the accusations it has now drawn because of it, if ye see whit a mean?


      On Basic Income, there is a talk in Kelty on the 28th January for anyone in the local who may be interested:

      BIEN’s Scottish affiliate, Citizen’s Basic Income Network Scotland (CBINS), will be holding a public event in Kelty, a town in Fife, on Saturday, January 28. The location is notable in part because the council area of Fife is presently investigating the possibility of a basic income pilot in one of its towns.

    322. Cactus says:

      Many more bridges to come..

      Aye, we should link up all our Scottish islands, including the..

      Bridge from / to Orkney.

    323. Thepnr says:


      Thanks for the info, read a bit more about Edinburgh and your absolutely right that their buses are still owned by the councils i.e. local people.

      This is not the case in Dundee where the buses were sold to National Express in 1987 or in Aberdeen where First Bus became the owners of the former Grampian Regional Council buses.

      One of the largest sell offs though was the Scottish Bus Group which included names such as Citylink and Strathtay Coaches. This happened in 1990/91.

      The detail though I don’t see as that important, it’s the principle I object to. I see nothing at all wrong with local councils running buses and that’s why I’m also so happy to know that Scotland’s water is still in our hands.

    324. heedtracker says:

      Rough woo’d yet? What’s that from.

      While MacKinnon is at it, perhaps she can also look at ways to reduce the online abuse BBC journalists receive from the cybernats for simply doing their jobs.”

      Sneaky creepy toryboys live in an odd UKOK world.

    325. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Uno mas@6.42

      Just saying like, but er, not everyone in Scotland uses Scottish power to supply their leccy, or gas.
      It is not obligatory to use them, though there is little difference between companies supplying our essential utilities.

      It is a mystery indeed, how these huge companies can call themselves ‘Scottish’ when they are certainly not. Given that Scotland is oil rich, and renewables rich, it is almost impossible to find a utilities company with their main headquarters in Scotland. Funny that.

    326. heedtracker says:

      I’m an independent councilor, what wants independence, but for independent Orkney only, not independent Scotland. Sounds like Orkney’s version of Sesnibledave

      A motion passed by 13 of Orkney Islands Council’s 21 members has demanded the chief executive compile a report considering ‘whether the people of Orkney could exercise self-determination if faced with further national or international constitutional changes, or indeed to decide if more autonomy might be beneficial for the wellbeing of Orkney.’

      Graham Sinclair, an independent councillor who drafted the motion, said: ‘I think the islands are more significantly different – both historically and culturally – from the rest of the country.”

      Only in teamGB.

    327. Artyhetty says:


      It is indeed shocking that so many of our industries and services were sold off at knock down prices only to make huge profits out of the people. Criminal, and it has happened right across the globe. S.America in particular, resource rich countries, not allowed to keep their utilities nationalised, that wouldn’t do, for the big profiteers, no way jose.

      Regards Scottish Water, the wolves are always at the door, I suspect if we had a unionist Scotgov, it is very likely it would be in private hands. Scotland does well with regard to hydro power, leading the way in many ways, though again, far as I know, the electricity produced thereof, is mostly sent down to england.

    328. galamcennalath says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:

      We Scots were … very subservient back then

      Perhaps, but BritNats, especially the red ones, do like to write history in their own image.

      The National Covenent was signed by 2.1 million people. That is more than voted NO in 2014.

      That is an awful lot of Scots demanding the DevoMax option of the day – Home Rule.

      The response is interesting …

      On 3 November 1949, a few days after the Edinburgh launch, the Unionist Party, then the country’s dominant political party, forced an adjournment debate in the House of Commons calling for a royal commission into Scottish affairs, with the aim of increasing administrative devolution to Scotland, including a larger ministerial team at the Scottish Office and the establishment of Scottish nationalised industries.

      The Labour government of the time dismissed the Scottish Covenant. In answer to a question in the House of Lords in May 1950 put to His Majesty’s Government, Labour Peer Lord Morrison objected both in principle to Home Rule and stated that the matters involved were ‘much too complicated’ to be put to referendum.

      So, the Scottish Unionists wanted dictatorial rule rather than a parliament, while Labour wanted London rule.

    329. Legerwood says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “”Hi Legerwood.

      Lidl’s ‘Chip Shop Steak Pies’ have the butcher’s apron on them, with the slogan ‘British Beef’. (Top right corner.)””

      Husband more or less vegetarian so would not notice the beef. Chicken I buy has saltire and the cheeses which come from Tain.

    330. bjsalba says:

      Apologies for rising to the bait that insensibledave spits out, but he says:

      I think I am right in saying that the EU’s problem is that 4% average on our exports to the EU is not much different, in total, than the £10 Billion net per annum that we currently pay to the EU.

      Problem is that “£10 Billion net per annum” is barely true for just one year. Here is the site I referred to. Please do look at the historical figures for the UK.

      Can anybody explain to me why, under supposedly EU hating Tories we end up being a net contributor to the EU at multiples of the rate we were contributing under Labour, when the economy was in bubble mode? I really would like to understand why.

    331. starlaw says:

      I don’t think the Queensferry crossing will have either walkways or cycle ways.
      The plans were drawn up while SNP did not have overall control and the opposition declared no need for a new bridge but were to afraid to knock it back completely. This was the only design they would vote for, it will be the first thing the yoons will complain about make a great song and dance about how stupid the SNP were to build a bridge that could not take either cyclists or pedestrians. Hope I’m wrong on this one, but fear not.

    332. K1 says:

      From Rev’s twitter Diva have Mhairi Black as a contender for ‘politcian of the year’ the vote is open till near end of February. There are a few categories on this voting page, you don’t have to click anyone from the every option, but there is also a musical category and Horse is on that list as a candidate, fab Scottish singer, been around a long time, so if ye feel like punting some votes their way too that’d be cool 🙂

      (Let’s get Mhairi tae number 1 though!)

    333. Robert Kerr says:

      @Legerwood 6.41

      You have not remembered correctly! Queen Elizabeth did NOT touch the Crown of Scotland. Please look at the Pathe newsreel I already linked to. About 5 minutes in.

      Stanley Cursiter the painter of your source was a member of the British Establishment and his painting is a political statement and not a depiction of the actuality.

      I repeat. The Establishment warned the Queen NOT TO TOUCH the Crown!

      She did not. Why do you insist otherwise?

    334. HandandShrimp says:


      I thought that the plan was for pedestrians, cyclists and public transport to use the existing bridge and for private cars and heavy goods to use the new bridge.

    335. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair Paterson says: 2 January, 2017 at 2:40 pm:

      “I know the way I go on about the Scottish gov., doing nothing to rebut all these lies may be tiresome but I really am at a loss to understand their attitude to all this ,, all we get is silence”

      Dinna talk pish, Blair. There is not a sitting of the Westminster Parliament that is not attended by the SNP elected members and there is always a good representation of them in the Westminster debates. The Rev gave the statistics a while back and the SNP MPs work rate was way above every other party. The Rev Stu’s article was in reply to the Scottish media SNP BAAD claims about their expenses.

      It is not the fault of the SNP that the media does not report the real facts. If you want to get the real facts then you have to NOT rely upon the media to give them to you on a plate. You are thus making false accusations against the very people in the front line who are fighting for Scotland every day of their lives.

      ” … I mean never in their wildest dreams did the media think it would be this easy to lie to Scotland with absolutely no comeback from the people who could put a stop to it … “

      Oh! Aye!

      And just how the hell do you envisage they go about that, “Putting a stop to it”, Blair?

      Aiblins ye see them standing on a soap box at the fit o the Mound wi a loud hailer in thir nieve. Mibbies ye see thaim stravaigin ben Sauchiehall Street, wi Sandwich Boards ower thir shouders.

      I’ll tell you where you will NOT see what they say and do being reported fairly. In the Scottish dead tree press, on the broadcast stations both audio and video. For Westminster controls the media and Radio and TV are NOT part of Holyrood’s remit.

      I’ll also tell you where you will get the truth All the Holyrood chamber proceedings are televised, as are all Committee meetings:-

      So are all the Westminster Chamber Proceedings:-

      If you want to read it word for word then you get that in Hansard:-

      You can watch The Commons on Channel 131 on Freeserve TV.

      … but for some reason are reluctant to do so ???”

      They do so every day of their lives. Just whose side are you on? There is a mighty big difference on being reluctant to speak and not having it reported what you say.

      You saw it in full operation when the BBC’s Nick Robinson questioned Alex Salmond at a Press Conference for the World Media. Alex gave a long and detailed answer and shot down Nick Robinson’s whole line of questioning and it went out live across the World’s TV and Radio networks – but not on the BBC.

      Not on the BBC, though. Nick Robinson claimed, just minutes later on the BBC News, “And he didn’t answer”.

      Now, if the boot had been on the other foot do you imagine this would have been suppressed and lied about? It would have been getting yelled from the rooftops and would have terrified the cats on the street. (The dugs on the streets would have known all about it, though).

      Now you are either an undercover agent of the Yoons or you do not have a clue how the Westminster Establishment has been working at brainwashing the people of the World since there was a government at Westminster and that was when the Romans arrived in south Britain.

    336. K1 says:

      Oh and if ye need any other incentive tae vote in that Diva poll…Ruth Davidson is on the shortlist…so get voting and get sharing…would absolutely hate it if she somehow became the poster girl for politician of the year on any platform!

    337. Cactus says:

      Many are.. but not all bridges need to be physical.

      We are one.

    338. K1 says:

      Val McDermid is also on the shortlist in the ‘author of the year’ category. That’s the last I’ll mention this on this thread. (But I will be punting it every now and again till Mhairi’s no 1 😉 )

    339. Stu Mac says:

      @Artyhetty says:
      3 January, 2017 at 6:36 pm

      The SNP Futures Trust thingy does bring in private money so in theory that is correct (Westminster forces all regional governments and councils to use private money and only Westminster can raise government loans which are cheaper to pay back – though they don’t).

      However the SNP version organises these through the separate independent body (SFT) which tries to get best value for money (unlike other PFI/PPI schemes which were commonly overloaded in favour of the private companies with some ridiculous deals done which are still costing billions (e.g. to NHS). It has been reasonably successful in doing so though of course it would be best for the government to raise money directly via a national bank but it has no such powers.
      SFT has a team of over 70 professionals working to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of infrastructure investment in Scotland. The team, drawn from public and private sector backgrounds, have a range of technical, legal and financial skills, and bring extensive commercial expertise in infrastructure financing, procurement and delivery into the public sector.

    340. galamcennalath says:

      @Robert Kerr

      no touching

      Does that mean she isn’t actually Elizabeth Queen of Scots?

    341. heraldnomore says:

      My goodness that Diva survey has some options. Dugdale as politician, Calman for something else, and hunners of wummin I’ve never heard of.

    342. bugsbunny says:


      It might not even be a deliberate act by people working in the shops. I have seen a local woman from my village shopping at Prestwick Sainsbury’s shoving all the Nationals under the Daily Mail. The same woman who works in a local charity shop that refuses anything Scottish, (books etc) as donations.
      I wonder what this old church going tory thinks of wee ruthie? The do as I say, not as I do party. Old hypocrite.

    343. Legerwood says:

      Robert Kerr says:
      3 January, 2017 at 8:11 pm
      @Legerwood 6.41

      “”I repeat. The Establishment warned the Queen NOT TO TOUCH the Crown!

      She did not. Why do you insist otherwise?””


      Did I insist? Really? I proceeded an alternative interpretation – not a crime.

      It is usual when the Queen is offered something such as the keys to a city or building for her to to touch it to signal her acceptance so why not on this occasion?

      Other reports of the occasion seem to suggest she signalled her acceptance in the usual way.

    344. starlaw says:

      correct. but wait till it opens and see what yoons will be greetin aboot.

    345. Tinto Chiel says:

      Very O/T, even for me. But…..

      Out for a medicinal whisky for my cold at my local earlier (slave to my health). The TV was on and it was BBC *shudders* News. It seems there is a range of mountains called the Kaingomms (accent on first syllable) where it snows in the winter.

      Can any Wise Winger place this range?

      Thanks in advance.

    346. Chic McGregor says:

      Wouldn’t the natural headline for that photie in the Herald be ‘Elf Determination’? No wait, what am I thinking?

    347. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 3 January, 2017 at 7:39 pm:

      ” … A motion passed by 13 of Orkney Islands Council’s 21 members has demanded the chief executive compile a report considering ‘whether the people of Orkney could exercise self-determination if faced with further national or international constitutional changes, or indeed to decide if more autonomy might be beneficial for the wellbeing of Orkney.”

      All that particular motion proves is that 13 of the 21 Councillors are congenital idiots.

      What sane person on an island that lies within the legal jurisdiction, recognised by the international Law of the Seas, as Scottish territorial waters would want to live on an island that would become, “an Enclave”, in Scottish waters?

      The definition of, “Enclave”, is :-

      a country, or especially, an outlying portion of a country, entirely or mostly surrounded by the territory of another country.”

      Now what that would mean for the islands is that they would be severely restricted in many ways. First of all they would be subject to the problems of travel restrictions.

      They would thus have to get visas and passports to travel through Scotland or even fly over Scottish airspace. Their sea routes for imports and exports would be subject to import and export taxes if travelling through Scotland.

      Their territorial waters would be extremely limited as the Law of the Seas says that the border between the two countries is the half way point and 12 miles otherwise as the Continental shelf, (200 mile), limit remains that of the host country. Note that there are no oil & gas fields in that area.

      Everything would thus needs be brought in by either air or sea and, if they remained part of the Kingdom of England subject to customs control by Scotland. Not only that but the existing oil & gas installations would probably be lost as the companies would not like the extra costs involved.

    348. K1 says:

      Ahm sure it’s somewhere near Ben Affleck…surely Tinto 🙂

    349. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers, constitutionally aren’t Orkney and Shetland under ownership of the Scottish Crown? Therefore the residents of those Islands have no right to so called self determination, furthermore they are not a distinct people or race, recent DNA tests put lie to the myth that they are Vikings and therefore, have no recourse to self determination in that regard either. Just a bunch of yoons doing what they always do when talk of Indy is in the air – talking pish. Which takes me to the BBC’s program with Neil Oliver last night. Talk about propaganda, non stop speculation that the United Kingdom has been in place for 5000 years, no mention that neither Scotland nor England didn’t exist then and especially no mention that the English were illegaL immigrants into Britain starting over two and a half thousands years after Brodgar was built.

    350. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Robert Kerr, she did receive the sword of state which she held for a moment and then handed back. The crown was on a cushion which she was given and she held it as well before giving it back. Didnt see anything about the sceptre mentioned. Does raise an interesting point though, can you be crowned if its not stuck on your head?

    351. Beor says:

      I see that one of the usual suspects has been rabbiting on about tariffs and WTO rules. As I alluded to in an earlier post these arguments, although ubiquitous spectacularly miss the point about; the nature of Single Market whose benefits stem entirely from regulatory harmonisation; the Customs Union and indeed what WTO rules actually mean.

      I won’t belabour the point about the Single Market, suffice to say that exit will require the wholesale creation of a regulatory infrastructure at a macro level (including the necessary legislation and administration) but most importantly will mean that the current presumption of conformity for manufactured goods will no longer exist for UK manufactures entering the Single Market. This will place an enormous administrative and legal burden on companies for whom it is a major source of revenue.

      The Customs Union gives the UK a schedule at the WTO. Leaving the CU will mean that the UK will have to submit a new schedule in Geneva and have it agreed by around 163 other WTO members (including the EU). This will not be a simple process. This without taking into consideration trade in agricultural products and services which are not comprehensively covered by current WTO agreements (that was the whole point of the – failed – Doha Round).

      It is obvious that there is a total lack of knowledge of the current world trade environment and the intricacies of trade policy development by the poster concerned. It would take far to long to deeal with all the points one by one (that would be a Trade Policy 101 course that I am loathe to give by someone who copy/pastes shite from Brexit websites).

    352. Tinto Chiel says:

      K1: I’ve got my charts out. See what you mean, but please don’t call me Shirley Tinto.


      Seriously, how come we never heard that Farage’s bag-man faces a long stretch in the USA for illegal dealings on the Dark Web (The National, page 5)? A strange silence on all MSM.

      Can you imagine if AS’s secretary had been so caught?

    353. Tam Jardine says:

      heedtracker 7.34pm

      Amazing example of journalism on that spectator piece. Detail lifted from the national followed by a catty, lazy comment about alleged abuse of BBC journalists by “cybernats”. I scan further down to read the point being developed or evidence or something, anything… and that was it!

      Somebody got paid for that!

      PS your play on Rough Wooing whilst mentioning Donald is interesting. I have been reading a lot on the genocide and wanton destruction of the 1540s which is absurdly referred to as the Rough Wooing. Ethnic Cleansing would be a more apt description.

      I am currently trying to understand the timescale and the scale and the longer I look the broader the scope of devastation appears.

      The raids resulted in vast loss of life, property and livestock. Needless to say repeated invasions by land and sea affecting the Borders, Lothians, Fife and Angus coinciding with diversionary raids from Carlisle into Dumfries and Galloway must have had a devastating effect on the economy.

      It really is staggering looking at the figures quoted. Just to flesh it out a little for anyone interested- the second main wave of devastation of Hertford’s army through the borders between 8th September and 23rd September 1545 resulted in the destruction by fire of the following:

      7 Monasteries (inc Melrose, Kelso, Dryburgh, Jedburgh)
      16 Castles/Towerhouses
      5 Market Towns (Kelso, Dawcowe/Dalcove, Dryburgh, Jedburgh and Duns)
      243 Villages (aye- two hundred and forty three)
      13 Mills
      3 “Spytells and Hofpitalls” which I am a little unsure about.

      This is but one wave- the earlier main wave included the burning of Leith and Edinburgh for days and the third included the disaster at Pinkie Cleugh and the Royal Navy’s forces headed by Dudley occupying and sacking Dundee.

      Anyway- as it is such a little known and examined period in Scotland’s history and Donalda is so keen to spend more on making programs in Scotland and for Scottish audiences to win our trust back she might consider my idea for 4 or 5 hour long episodes detailing the various waves of destruction. I am going to suggest “Fyre and Swoorde” as the title as in Henry VIII’s instruction to “Put all to…”.

      Can anyone think of a programme the BBC are less likely to make?

    354. Artyhetty says:

      Stu mac@8.23pm

      Indeed, just look up NPD. ‘Non-Profit Distribution’, you can find the SNP Gov PDF to this online. I had to check this out last year, after a heated discussion with a unionist (NHS worker)acquaintance, who was adamant that the new hospital in Ayr was being built with PFI. It is being built using the NPD syatem, not ideal, but a whole lot better than labour’s PFI ever was for the public purse!

    355. K1 says:

      Looks affy like hospitals Tam, as tor spytells…no so sure. That’s genocide. Rough Wooing, little eumphemisms that camouflage horror.

    356. Tam Jardine says:


      Aye- I read Hospitals but I am not sure exactly what that means in terms of the mid 16th century.

    357. frogesque says:

      @Tam Jardine..9.25

      Re 3
      Quick web trawl seems to give spytell or spitell as a poor or almshouse caring for lepers and other unfortunates. The old printed books also used an extended s that looked like an f. Still used in a similar fashion today as the calculus symbol for integration.

      Hence hofpitals for hospitals.

    358. crazycat says:

      @ Tam

      I’m fairly sure spytells (more usually spelled spitals) and hospitals are more or less the same thing.

      This article refers to England and is only partially available unless you subscribe, but the visible bit includes a description of their function (much wider than now):

    359. Tam Jardine says:


      I suppose Spytell must be ye olde english for the Scots Spittal ie a shelter or hospice.

      So 3 Hospices/Hospitals (mid 16th century form) burnt to the ground on that one wave alone. Genocide as you say.

    360. bjsalba says:

      @Dan Huil
      The UKs top EU diplomat chappie resigns. Who cares.

      My take is that having told TM what she did not want to hear, he has been ousted (pushed or jumped is irrelevant). What it does do is reduce the likelihood that the Brexit negotiations will be conducted in a civilized manner, and reduces the chances of the UK gettng a deal of any kind.

      If I were the EU27 I would be burnishing my contingency plan for the possibility that the UK negotiators will walk out in a strop.

    361. frogesque says:

      Aye, Tam J And K1, the bastards ransacked and burnt anything and everything. Scorched earth. What they couldn’t take and use they destroyed.

    362. K1 says:

      The SNP were probably in charge back then tae Tam…the hospitals were probably dain really well and 16th century equivalent tae destroying their reputation using fyre and swoorde rather than pish articles in the Herald were de rigueur…obviously! (smirk, shouldnae make light of this subject…it’s either that or just weeping).

    363. Tinto Chiel says:

      Tam Jardine and K1:

      The Concise Scots Dictionary has:

      “Hospital: a hospital or a charitable asylum for lepers.

      Spital: a charity hospital (in place-names; a hospice or shelter for travellers, esp. in mountainous country).”

      I think you can safely presume the fecker burnt everything.

      For rough wooing, I think they meant rape.

      But then, I’m a Sweaty Grievance Monkey.

    364. Thepnr says:


      If I were the EU27 I would be burnishing my contingency plan for the possibility that the UK negotiators will walk out in a strop.

      I’ve been thinking this since the blessed May was elected as leader of the Tories and became our Prime Minister. She and the rest of the Brexiteers have no plan whatsoever. How you’d negotiate a deal without a plan beats me.

      Couldn’t care less to be honest, I believe Scotland will become Independent, their failures need not be ours.

    365. Tam Jardine – for hospitals look up Soutra Isle on Google. You’ll find quite a bit of information as this has been the site of a number of recent excavations.

    366. call me dave says:

      Robert Copland’s work 1535 ‘Hye way to the Spytell House’ referring to a charity hospital…googled it!

    367. Effijy at 1.11
      Sanjiv was taking the pish out of us taking the pish out of ourselves. We are very good at it.I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thought it was great. And “Only An Excuse” was first class too.
      Pity about the Burd.

    368. Big Jock says:

      The world we live in!

      John Mason innocently tweets:” If I ask a girl out and she says no should I not ask her again”. The Herald puts it on front page as MSP in trouble for saying girls refuse first time. Linking it to the sexual act.

      Yet Murder Fraser insults the entire Irish nation calling them Nazis and it passes the media by.

    369. heedtracker says:

      Tam Jardine says:
      3 January, 2017 at 9:25 pm
      heedtracker 7.34pm

      Its his blog so he’s probably contracted to smite cybernats and gee up Donalda, to kick cybernat ass.

      Thanks for the rough wooing info. Henry VIII was just a serial killer, a true monster with a crown. But he gets lovely and relentless BBC grovel spin and its pretty clear why.

      He was the kind of monster that we have to be told was a good guy, partly because he kicked off the Church of England what we have now. But this wasnt some kind of amazing act of kingship. The monster was just feeding of the whole European reformation.

      A good test of English cultural domination over Scotland, ask a Scot who was on the Scottish throne at same time as Henry V111. Never met anyone who knows off hand.

    370. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: ‘hoftipal/hospital’.

      I’ve been aware of this apparent substitution of “f” for “s” since my primary school days. I still have one of Enid Blyton’s “Secret Seven” books in my library storeroom – can’t remember the title though; might be “The Treasure Hunters” or similar.

      In the story, the kids are trying to decipher an ancient document and much confusion is caused by the appearance of “f”. So, I was young and I learned.

    371. galamcennalath says:

      bjsalba says:

      …. the UK negotiators will walk out in a strop.

      Thing is, there are elements on the English right who would quite happy with that!

      It is hard to think like a fool though, so I really don’t know how they will behave!

      I suspect the EU will want to get the divorce settlement pretty much agreed first. That could be a large sum owed by HMG. It is quite possible the UK walks out before anyone in the EU even considers trade agreements. However that would then go to the international courts as the EU sued for monies owed, I suppose.

      Meanwhile, the pound plummets. UK folks will find it hard to import EU goods anyway, so trade deals and tariffs seem almost irrelevant.

      Also, the UK’s financial services industry contracts as banks etc move overseas long before Brexit actually occurs.

      What a mess!

      Alternatively, the UK could simply agree to whatever the EU offer, which is bound to be better than a ‘dirty Brexit’. Then the Tories would have to ride the storm of the far right’s reaction.

    372. Tam Jardine says:

      Dorothy Bruce

      Thanks – very interesting.

      I think they may have also classed leper colonies (or which there would have been a few) in these terms. It is not detailed on the lists I have seen where the 3 specific hofpitals/spytells burnt were in the borders but perhaps they were all attached to the abbeys as with the House of the Holy Trinity.

      Soutra Aisle looks quite intact. I must swing by when in the area to get a look. Amazing what you learn on here.

    373. carjamtic says:

      A few days in to 2017 and it looks like the propaganda dial (SNP Bad),has been turned up to the max….they are really soiling themselves re : court ruling.

      Glad to report,I expect nothing less nowadays and am cool with it….truth,facts and critical thinking will always win the day.

      No better tribute to the Yes movement than, “so beautiful,it made me proud to be human”…..(“Better Together….,a wee bit,boaky”).


    374. Another Union Dividend says:

      Good old BBC TV news described disgraceful events by Chelsea football supporters as tarnishing the reputation of British football. As Scottish and English football teams represent their respective nations in Europe would errant Scottish fans be described as British?

      Lenny Hartley @9.14 I saw the unionist propaganda on Orkney excavations last night “a common cultural heritage 5000 years ago”.

      When I visited Orkney several years ago we were told that the neolithic buildings were 500 years older than Stonehenge so I don’t see what the great date revelation by Neil Oliver was all about.

    375. Robert Kerr says:


      I don’t know. It’s all symbolism and seems to matter.

      I refer back to Dr Morag Kerr’s Thread in WoS from 2014

      I won’t waste anymore time with the Britnat apologist.

      Goodnight all

    376. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Sorry Robert, that’s almost completely wrong.

      1. 13 out of 21 councillors signed the motion, none of the others disagreed

      2. They are not congential idiots, they are seeking to exploit the situation between the Scottish and UK Governments, much as Scotland is seeking to exploit the UK / EU situation. Good luck to them.

      3. Yes Orkney would become an enclave if it went on its own, up to 12nm territorial waters only, but if it went with Sheltand and even the Western Isles, they would have a strong claim to an EEZ of their own – as Independent islands, NOT as part of the UK though. If they tried to stay part of the UK then they would indeed be an enclave. So they go Indy before Scotland – or after we do.

      4. Visas / passports travelling through Scotland – depends on the negotiations. But over Scotland absolutely not, that’s international airspace. Sea routes would NOT be subkect to import and exprt duties, firstly there’s international waters outside the terrirotiral ones, and secondly even if they stopped for fuel they would NOT be subject to duties unless they landed dutyable products.

      5. Scotland would be bound by international law to allow free access to their territory – or be sanctioned by the UN – even if a part of “England” – I think you mean the rUK / UK.

      This is precisely what I posted about the other day, allowing the hellbent media to provoke stupid divisive postings from Independence supporters, perhaps alienating YES voters in Orkney – and the rest of the islands.

      Sheesh 🙁

    377. Capella says:

      @ Heedtracker – yes you do. James IV who died at Flodden 1513. Flooers o the Forest commemorates.

    378. heedtracker says:

      When I visited Orkney several years ago we were told that the neolithic buildings were 500 years older than Stonehenge so I don’t see what the great date revelation by Neil Oliver was all about.”

      Not seen it but I bet you my knighthood, that Neil Oliver OBE never ever mentions the word “Scotland” throughout the whole show, if any of the BBC liggers do.

      When I rise to powe, everyone’s getting a knighthood, even pets will.

    379. Legerwood says:

      Tam Jardine @ 10.33

      Soutra Aisle is all that is left of the Church that stood on the site. The hospital was also located there. The Aisle survives because it is the burial place of the Pringle family.

      More info here

      There was another leper hospital to the south of Soutra in the parish of Legerwood. It was dedicated to St Mary Magdalene. Like Soutra all trace of it has long since disappeared but the small, 12th century church in the parish has a lepers’ squint near the altar. The lepers could follow the service by looking through the squint.

    380. galamcennalath says:


      An interesting question. Yes, I know Flodden was 1512, so the answer is James IV and V.

      Then it gets hazy! I know Mary returned about 1560 from France aged 18 and had been queen of Scotland almost all her life, so James V must have died about 1542ish.

      Was Henry still on the English throne when Mary was crowned? I don’t know and won’t cheat by looking it up. 😉

      Your point Heedtracker is a good one, often we know more about England than Scotland. Ask people how many are in a jury? Many say 12.

    381. galamcennalath says:

      Meant 1513, finger trouble rather than complete ignorance 😉

    382. Dr Jim says:

      It’s all in the definition

      BBC Scotland reports oil and gas doom because of the “SLUMP” in oil prices

      They must not have noticed that oil has slumped UP to nearly $60 a barrel from a low of $28

      Funny word “Slump”

    383. galamcennalath says:

      1513 😉 finger trouble

    384. Oil was never above $50 until 2006.

    385. yesindyref2 says:

      Orkney by the way has a council of 21 independent councillors. No party usually stands there, but in 2012 the SNP contested 4 wards and got 3% of the vote, UKIP one ward and got 0.1%. The motion in December was this:

      I, Councillor Graham Sinclair wish to move a Notice of Motion that the Chief Executive should bring a report to the February 2017 meeting of the Policy and Resources Committee considering whether the people of Orkney could exercise self-determination if faced with further national or international constitutional changes, or indeed to decide if more autonomy might be beneficial for the wellbeing of Orkney, and exploring what engagement would be required to consider such opportunities for greater autonomy or self-determination with both the UK and Scottish Government.

      A report by February gets at most 2 months, it took the SNP getting on for 2 years to do Scotland’s Future. Clearly what they’re doing is exploring the options, perhaps more control over Crown estate, better broadband, a replacement ferry a damn sight quicker than the last time one broke down, whatever. Just as clearly February will not be producing a full prosepctus for Independence.

      Don’t let the Unionist media stir you up – just what is this website Wings Over Scotland about, again?

      Ah yes, resistance to Unionist proaganda – and division.

    386. heedtracker says:

      Your point Heedtracker is a good one, often we know more about England than Scotland. Ask people how many are in a jury? Many say 12.

      When it comes to Scottish history, I love to get on my high horse. The biggest bollox that pours of the UK zone and then all over us, is their royals hoohaa but it is a constitutional monarchy, whatever that means. T’d one up there of Sir Robert Peffers. Thanks for the Orkney info Sir Robert.

      Then there’s they’re Britain won WW2, or their Scotland region is named after the Scotti tribe that colonised Scotland from Ireland. That’s UKOK pants worth hanging out to dry. One word “scotti” in a minor Roman history, and that’s it, no archeology, not in Scotland nor Ireland, nothing and yet this “Scotti” is Scotland myth also gets pimped out, where ever you go too. Funny that.

    387. Hamish100 says:

      Yesindy ref 2

      You waste a lot of energy on the Orkney debate. The majority of folk there if you ask are Orcadian and Scots just as others will say they are Lewis men and women and Scots.

      Ask for the Councillors some are put up to it by the lib dems. Spent a few spells in Orkney over the years. Great people, great islands to visit. Archeology world class.
      That’s what makes Scotland great.

      Ps let’s start to refer to the Scottish Government as our government.

    388. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 please explain how Shetland, the Orkneys and the Western Isle could sucede from Scotland?

      They are not a distinct people , Dna tests in Orkney found that 75% were of pre Viking ie Celtic descent. It’s like saying that Arran could declare UDI.

    389. Liz g says:

      Galamcennalath @ 11.03
      Show off… LOL
      Seriously though thanks for the answer.
      And if you do cheet and look stuff up I won’t tell…Honest!

    390. Cactus says:


      Fae the soo’side of Glasgow, Scotland.


    391. Ealasaid says:

      If Scottish law for the sovereign people of Scotland gives us the right to roam throughout Scotland and also finds car clamping illegal, as considered demanding money with menaces, can it therefore be legal for politicians, north or south of the border, to sell off Scottish assets without consulting the sovereign people of Scotland?

      How did the people of Scotland profit from these sales except to end up paying higher prices to private companies? Where, and it whose pockets, did the money from the sales go? If brought before a Scottish court would these proceedings be considered legal?

      We have been conditioned to accept English terms and conditions on our personal sales and transactions for years, but whose terms and conditions were used for the sale of our utilities? Why are we accepting the legal transaction procedures of a foreign government when our own law is guaranteed in perpetuity by the Treaty of Union?

      Or have I got this wrong?

    392. heedtracker says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      3 January, 2017 at 8:59 pm
      @heedtracker says: 3 January, 2017 at 7:39 pm:

      On top of all that, Aberdeen’s ARI hospital is where all Orcadians and Shetlanders come for health care, especially emergency. Maybe after Orcadian independence, they can cut a deal with Norway health care.

    393. Tackety Beets says:

      Hi Beor ,
      Apologies for typing your “Handle” wrongly.

      I thought it brilliant your post yesterday regarding trade deals & explaining how Hard Brexit can never deliver a better deal for Uk.

      Well , one has to wonder about UK Top EU negotiator’s resignation today (As per CMDave post earlier today)
      Funny how the Media are unable to explain why he has resigned !

      Deck o cards crumble or as someone said on Twitter “How will the resignation effect TM plans?”
      Woooo hooo what plans ?

      Thanks Robert P , that how I remember 1979 , & that’s why I am so shocked so few people still do not know anything about it , especially now we can find so much on-line.

      Maybe I’m one o those geeks who remembers useless information.

    394. defo says:

      Tam Jardine
      Dorothy Bruce
      The building at Soutra hill has info boards nearby. V good too.
      As to the building itself, it’s a replica, done in the 80’s by Historic Scotland (or equiv) using remains on the original footprint. They used a local mason. I think. 🙂

      Well worth a visit, if only for the panoramic views.
      I was up there this summer, watched the sun set over Fife, followed by a full moon rising over the wind turbines.

    395. yesindyref2 says:

      I go on MSM, including the Express occasionally, so it’s Scottish Government or ScotGov for short. Just been on today.

      @Lenny Hartley
      DNA is a red herring, it’s about “self-determination”. They would have a difficult, possibly impossible case with the UN, but the ScotGov should not and I think would not, interfere with their democratic right to secede (and it would be secede in their case unlike ours which could be secession, succession or dissolution), if that was their clearly expressed will. It would be hypocritical of the ScotGov to stop them, considering theu=ir / our policy is Independence.

      Independence however would be far harder for them to achieve than for us, as they have a lot less of the offices of government devolved than we do.

      Arran by the way was YES, as was I think Skye.

    396. TYRAN says:

      Is MSM, Dugdale & Co saying this is about peedo rape since Mason wrote “girls”? It MUST be. Why not jump to this conclusion in the same absurd manner? Or is it the case we haven’t heard this mentioned as it’s shite, because the entire thing is shite to start with? Yes? Thought so.

    397. defo says:

      I don’t want to seem alarmist, but this site offers a countdown service for all sorts of things, and just for a laugh I typed in ‘armageddon’.
      Apparently we have 21 minutes left. 😉

    398. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      I think by the way that any move for staying in the UK if WHEN Scotland goes Independent was an initiative of one well-known nutter, not well supported. The “petition” with about 1300 signatures was mostly by outsiders – probably from London.

      One of the things I guess they’re after is putting pressure on to get a big slice of the crown estates currently being devolved to ScotGov:

      33. Following this transfer, responsibility for the management of those assets will be further devolved to local authority areas such as Orkney, Shetland, Na h-Eilean Siar or other areas who seek such responsibilities. It is recommended that the definition of economic assets in coastal waters recognises the foreshore and economic activity such as aquaculture.

    399. K1 says:

      Och well defo…6 of them are up as I type so down to 15 minutes approx. when I post this…ah waant ma knighthood fae heedtracker afore a go…dae the honours heed 🙂

    400. Still Positive. says:

      Ealasaid @ 11.26

      No you are not wrong, I have often wondered that myself.

      Think the trespass laws etc kinda prove the Scottish people are sovereign.

      Robert Peffers will be along to clarify.

    401. heedtracker says:

      dae the honours heed

      I’ve not risen to power yet.

    402. Stu Mac says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says:
      3 January, 2017 at 10:29 pm
      RE: ‘hoftipal/hospital’.

      It harks back to days of manuscripts when very often an elongated “s” which stretched further up and down than the usual “s” was used in English/Scottish documents. When printing came in – from the continent at first so some characters we used weren’t available – they used an ‘f’ with a bit of the stroke-through broken off to represent this as they tended to copy manuscript style at first. This got to be a habit and lasted into the 18th century I think.

      Other characters lost through this adoption of a continental print character set were thorn, eth and yogh.
      Thorn and eth were replaced by “th” – incidentally thorn was like a “P” but with a sharp triangle at the top instead of a half circle; in manuscripts the top part of the triangle often was left unclosed when writing quickly so that it looked a bit like a “Y”, hence “Ye olde shoppe”. Yogh was replaced with “z” as in “Menzies”.

    403. K1 says:

      Ah beg tae differ, ye’ve a powerful way wi wurds 😉

    404. Tam Jardine says:

      My word- the shite written about John Mason’s tweet is quite something. My fave retort is from Annie Wells (con):

      “At a time when we are trying to tackle domestic abuse and violence against women, this was an ill-judged tweet. It probably read worse than he intended, and as such he should reflect on the remark.”

      That “probably” is just amazing. I think it is fair to say in the absence of any evidence to the contrary that Mr Mason was not and is not an advocate or an apologist for raping women Annie and there ain’t no “probably” about it. Misinterpreting his remarks in this way is disgusting. All these morons on twitter and all these politicians demanding Mr Mason’s head and these newspapers frothing with outrage owe him an apology for this disgusting smear.

      What a shower- is there nothing they won’t use to try and take an SNP down?

    405. Beor says:

      Hi Tackety Beets

      Thanks for the response – re the namecheck thingy; no worries as they say down here.

    406. Liz g says:

      Still Positive @ 11.57 & Ealasaid @ 11.26
      As I understand it..As long as the Treaty of the Union is in force,the Sovereign people of Scotland agree (I know) that the law for Scotland will be made in Westminster.
      They don’t actually write one law and it takes force here there has to be distinct version of whatever passed in Westminster for us and it has to be able to be compatible with our system.
      It is the Treaty of the Union and not the Act of the Union which binds us to the Westminster system.
      The Treaty while it is in force is what gives the acts..Any acts the force of law.
      If you notice they keep harping on about a new Act of Union,and NOT a new TREATY.
      It is acts that the Court’s can enforce,but the Treaty it’s self they have no input into.
      That’s a Political matter and the Politicians make the rules for the Court’s who can only make Judgements on how the Political rules apply.
      Just as when Duncan Smith didn’t like a judge’s ruling on what the law as it stood said….He had Parliament change the law.
      Hope that helps.

    407. Chick McGregor says:

      It’s only 23hours 35 minutes to Scottish independence. I wish.

    408. Still Positive. says:

      Re: The National. Ask your local newsagent to keep it for you. Mine does for me and several others.

      Will ask tomorrow how many he keeps and how many he sells.

    409. Cactus says:

      We are one.

      We are unbreakable.

      Cheers tya Jock Scot, great tae hear from ye bud 🙂

      I really love our Scotland so much..

      What about you Scotland.. who do you love?

    410. Maybe not the people of Orkney but those in power on the island have `previous` in ditching their country and sucking up to the bigger aggressor state,

      in the Claudian invasion of the Greater Britain 11 Kings gave homage/surrendered to the Romans and one of the Kings was from Orkney.

    411. Cactus says:

      Who do you love?


      George thorogoodly.

    412. Dr Jim says:

      Yoons what are they like:

      Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want a referendum blares all the Unionist press, because she’s afraid she’ll lose, they spout crowingly (smirky heh heh)

      But what they’re saying to Unionist voters is there’s no point in voting when a referendum IS called because everybody will be in absolutely no doubt she IS going to win it

      They haven’t thunk that strategy through really

    413. Cactus says:

      Most of Scotland ‘return to work..’ tomorrow / today.

      Guid luck with yer interview revellers.

      Mon the weekend!

    414. Cactus says:

      As has been said recently..

      Who care’s about them.. the westminster?

      It’s all about us..

      We are one, we are Scotland.

    415. Cactus says:

      It aint easy being cheesey..

      Mon the Family Guy.

      Iiiiin one!

    416. Cactus says:

      Let us see what the people’s are saying / polling on the 7th of April..

      They say one week is a long time in politics..

      Scotland’s SNP are the carriage..

      Vote Yes!

    417. Cactus says:

      ‘Barring wildly unforeseeable events..’

      I’m aware and watching the scenario play out bro..

      Ahm already there.. cheers boss.


    418. Cactus says:


      The 26th of March in Glasgow.. It’s a rally and maybes a swally..?

      See you there cool people’s.

    419. Cactus says:


      Cheers to ye call me dave for the earlier instantaneous post about the UK EU dude throwin’ in the towel.

      How goes ur cafe bud bro?

    420. One_Scot says:

      What is clear as of now, is that anything the SNP say or write will be seized upon by the Yoon media and twisted in a coordinated attack to try and damaged the Yes momentum.

      The only thing I’m not sure of is whether the majority of people are still being taken in by this unionist media shit, or are they online seeing this crap for the manipulated ‘Fake News’ that it is.

    421. Nana says:

      Resignation raises chance of hard Brexit, say officials

      Post-Brexit ‘zombies’ could put UK wildlife in danger, while farming faces ‘significant risks’

    422. scottieDog says:

      Just saw kezia tweeting this morning about masons remarks.
      Labour are like gollum in the cave living on scraps and lamenting the loss of ‘the precious’

      Kez and Co would be bowing to the mysoginist trump if it meant power

    423. Macart says:


      A few good links to start the day Nana. Completely agree with indyref2 article on quack journalism. Hits the nail firmly on the head fer sure.

      I’ll lose no sleep when Leveson’s hammer finally drops on these titles and this form of journalism. As for the politicians who deliberately stir this shite up through misrepresentation? The gutter sweepings who look for hunting season trophies? Labour are aware they’re on 14% at the moment, right? They do understand fully why they are luxuriating in the U bend of Scottish politics?

      What part of ‘we’re heart sick of the appalling nature of your politics’ do they not understand? I am so done with innuendo, smear, lies, media manipulation and tribal fucking hatred at this point, that every time I see any such manufactured article appear, I’m more like to be angred and offended by the authors.

      I literally have been turned away from established politics and mainstream media by the actions of establishment politicians and the self interested, corporate, journalistic quackery of their media. They are their own worst enemy and you’d think that at least one or two of them may have the mental capacity to see the writing on the damn wall by this point. In fact it’s not so much writing on a wall as hundred foot neon signage bolted to a cliff face.

      At this point I have zero sympathy for those who practice the dark arts in politics, be they political class or journalist. They should know however that the public they treat with such contempt, not only can return that contempt tenfold, but also pay their damn wages.

    424. heedtracker says:

      BBC Scotland gothic reworking of Scots politics history, by all new and exciting Donaldo. How many times can they say SNP hates Labour, part of their all new and exciting feel sorry for SLab campaigning now. Poor SLab, SNP are such meanies, have my vote.

    425. Dr Jim says:

      Over and over my Mum would ask me if I wanted more to eat
      No matter how many times I said no she kept asking and asking

      Violating my human rights and she did it all her life
      Never had any respect for me whatsoever

      Rape I say Rape

      I had to share this terrible story to get it off my chest

    426. Les Wilson says:

      I have taken the time to read the submission by Aiden O’Neil to the Supreme court, and wow, what a submission it is.
      It not only explains well and in detail, just why the Scottish people are sovereign, but also how the Westminster government cannot use the “royal prerogative” When dealing with items that effect the laws of Scotland. The Queen has no power to do so.

      So much more in his submission, to the extend he was not allowed time to fully explain, which basically says we are not subservient to Westminster laws, and are only where such laws can work within the laws of Scotland, as have existed before, during and after the act of Union.

      They have a hot potato here, and a possible constitutional crisis in the making. Bring it on.

      Really worth a read. Thanks to Nana for the link.
      direct –

    427. Nana says:


      Heart sick of it all. Aye a new year and here we go again, same old smear and sneer. They are so deep in their hatred of the snp & stupid to realise these attacks just makes them appear more pathetic.

      As for journalists, what are they nowadays. Twitter chasers for a story however weak, fake or outright daft.

    428. Stu Mac says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says:
      3 January, 2017 at 10:29 pm
      RE: ‘hoftipal/hospital’.

      It harks back to days of manuscripts when very often an elongated “s” which stretched further up and down than the usual “s” was used in English/Scottish documents. When printing came in – from the continent at first so some characters we used weren’t available – they used an ‘f’ with a bit of the stroke-through broken off to represent this as they tended to copy manuscript style at first. This got to be a habit and lasted into the 18th century I think.

      Other characters lost through this adoption of a continental print character set were thorn, eth and yogh.
      Thorn and eth were replaced by “th” – incidentally thorn was like a “P” but with a sharp triangle at the top instead of a half circle; in manuscripts the top part of the triangle often was left unclosed when writing quickly so that it looked a bit like a “Y”, hence “Ye olde shoppe”. Yogh was replaced with “z” as in “Menzies”.

      (This appeared to have disappeared when I tried to post last night, hope posting it doesn’t result in duplicates)

    429. It’s the headlines in the print media that count, however much we may despise them, and their lies. Sure, their influence, and sales, are diminishing, but a heck of a lot of people still take their printed word as gospel, especially when most don’t read beyond the headlines.
      The comment made by John Mason was daft, and those on our side, especially our elected representatives, must take greater care in their public pronouncements, as the M.S.M will jump all over anything that they think will blacken the name of the S.N.P.
      For those of due to go out shortly chapping doors for the 2017 Council Elections, we have enough to cope with without newspaper headlines inspired by an careless quote from one of our M.S.Ps.

    430. sensibledave says:

      Beor says: at 9:20 pm

      You spectacularly miss the point Boer.

      I am not arguing to “leave” nor am I arguing that leaving is good, better, more advantageous, easy or desirable.

      … but, apparently, “Brexit means Brexit” so I assume that we will leave. As is so often the case here, and as you have done, because you disagree (as I do) with the decision, you find it impossible to then move on and think about what could be achieved. What we do have as negotiating armory and what issues does the other side (the EU) face in the negotiations.

      We can probably agree (you and I) that it highly unlikely that the UK will leave the EU whilst still agreeing to keep “Free Movement”? So if we leave and don’t have free movement – but the EU and the UK want to have a continuing trading relationship – then logically the two sides will have to agree something.

      There is no template or model for this situation. We are not Norway or Switzerland (we are bigger and more important to the EU economy (that isn’t a political view it is a fiscal reality). Nor are we the USA or Canada. We are just 20 miles from the continental mainland and we are one of the EU’s most important trading partners.

      You are very clear on everything that can’t be achieved. So, share all your knowledge and experience and tell us what you think could/might be agreed/possible. Or, are you incapable of doing that? Or, are you not allowed?

    431. defo says:

      Fuck off asshat.

    432. Jim says:

      According to the Times, “the poem has provoked a debate on Mumsnet, one of the UK’s largest parenting websites, and on Twitter”.
      Those that don’t feel the need to partake of the SG gift of a baby box can do one simple thing, say no thanks and it can be used by someone more in need.
      Nobody forced you to fuck each other sensless so not the baby’s fault.

    433. galamcennalath says:

      sensibledave says:

      …. “Brexit means Brexit” so I assume that we will leave.

      A reasonable assumption.

      A further reasonable assumption would be that we will all be standing on the quayside, waving handkerchiefs, and wishing you well on your journey.

    434. defo says:

      Fat cat Wednesday.

      “The UK’s top bosses will have made more money by lunchtime on Wednesday than the typical UK worker will earn all year, according to an analysis that exposes the gulf between executives and the rest of the workforce.”

    435. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graf Midgehunter says: 2 January, 2017 at 5:12 pm:

      “I wrote something similar a few days ago about the abysmal SNP website but I was nowhere near as articulate or clear as you were. Very good and well said.”

      Aye! Why not get in on the SNP BAAD Westminster mantra, Graf Midgehunter – after all everyone else is doing the same. From her Majesty purring to the Orkney councillors who want Orkney to be independent from Scotland.

      The problem with spending time, effort and money of producing a more informative SNP party website is twofold. First of all a lot of it is an SNP members only zone.

      In any case it defeats the purpose as it shares the same weak link that Wings has to contend with. Both are preaching to the already converted.

      Face it – how many genuine fence sitters have you read here on Wings? The fact is that there is a hard core of dedicated commenters who are 100% indy activists and the rest who are definite independence seekers. And then we have the anti-independence, probably Westminster employees, who come here to fight against independence and a whopping great number who lurk but do not usually comment.

      In other words it is the already converted from both pro and anti independence who visit wings. If you were to be canvassing on the doorstep and asked the householders there if they read wings you would find that only already converted independence supporters even knew Wings existed and a few very committed Yoon activists were among the readership.

      Just as a few pro-independence activists will know off and occasionally visit such as Labourhame or the Tory party website.

      So the SNP’s website is preaching to the converted and even dedicated Wingers seem rather reluctant to goto the SG’s Holyrood website for information and fewer still the Westminster Parliament’s website.

      I wonder also how many wingers use the Freeserve channel 131 parliament channel?

    436. galamcennalath says:

      Mason’s phrase is a bit like the student who told the MP to ‘get in the sea’. The MP didn’t know this was a common phrase implying evolutionary status, and took the wrong meaning. Similarly people are taking meaning that I doubt if Mason meant.

      The DIFFERENCE lies in the way the media handle each event.

      Any excuse for SNPBaaad.

      And therein lies the reality. No matter what the SNP or Scottish Government do or say it will be spun negatively.

      What should the SNP do? Get into an endless slagging match, or ignore the twats? The media won’t stop so wasting effort refuting the unlimited stream of spin will achieve nothing, but deflect will from more important things.

    437. heedtracker says:

      There is no template or model for this situation. We are not Norway or Switzerland (we are bigger and more important to the EU economy (that isn’t a political view it is a fiscal reality). Nor are we the USA or Canada. We are just 20 miles from the continental mainland and we are one of the EU’s most important trading partners.”

      Another exact inversion of relentless UKOK tory BBC led monstering on Scottish independence, Scotland trades 4 times more with our chums in the south, so shaddap and never ever hold ref 2.

      Its the kind of UKOK stuff endlessly pouring out of roasters like Ruth Davidson or Kez Dudgale:D


      EU will ofcourse not stop indy UK trade. UK will ofcourse stop indy Scottish trade.

      Planet toryboy madness writes itself sensible.

    438. Nana says:

      @Brian Powell

      Here it is Brian

    439. heedtracker says:

      Just as a few pro-independence activists will know off and occasionally visit such as Labourhame or the Tory party website.

      I do it all the time Robert. Facebook’s great for interacting with yoon culture. I even used to chat to Effie Deans. Its a lot like fishing, you have to be very respectful and not ask questions what they do not want to answer. Effie did block me pretty quickly though, after her blog about how Great British immigration control is now absolutely vital and immigration is not a good thing. “Effie you told us your partner’s Russian.”

      Pop, gone.

    440. Socrates MacSporran says:

      LesWilson @ 9.02am

      I read the O’Neill submission from your link – Wow! that will give their noble Lord and Ladyships something interesting to debate.

      Unless they throw it out in one fell swoop, which I cannot see happening, then Mother Theresa and her plans are fucked – she will have to do some kind of deal with Holyrood.

      Since the Tory/Westminster mindset is: “We own Scotland”, they will either have to eat a lot of humble pie, and redefine the whole relationship, by giving us a lot more powers, or, arrange a swift and relatively painless dismantling of the UK – with Scotland getting its independence.

      Interesting times indeed.

    441. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Silly Me – in my post at 10.39am, I assumed Mother Theresa actually had a plan for Brexit. Doh!!

    442. Macart says:

      @Les Wilson/Socrates MacSporran

      Its a beaut isn’t it?

      When that ruling is finally aired wait for the fireworks in the meeja. 😉

    443. Nana says:

      Meant to say when I posted this link to mention the O’Neill subnission included at the bottom of the article is so worth reading.

      For anyone who missed this first time, there’s a few days left to give your views on the draft referendum bill

    444. Brian Powell says:


      And for anyone who doesn’t use Twitter this useful bit of info on the Daily Mail:

      “Liam O’Hare ?@Liam_O_Hare Jan 2

      FYI, the Daily Mail makes no contribution to the foreign aid budget or indeed any other budget as it’s registered in Bermuda and avoids tax.”

    445. galamcennalath says:

      Re O’Neill’s submission. Yes, a wheen stanes coupit oor wi’ that yin!

      Will the SC do their job and consider the true depth and significance of Scottish constitutional law? Or, will they just say that doesn’t apply to the simpler situation of May having to go to parliament with A50?

      Interesting times indeed.

    446. Robert Peffers says:

      @bjsalba says: 3 January, 2017 at 1:17 pm:

      “I see sensibledave is rabbitting on about how the EU can’t manage without the UK contribution of the “£10 Billion net per annum that we currently pay to the EU”.
      I suggest a visit to this site”

      The point about those contributions is that they are not a subsidy from the UK to Brussels. They are payments for services rendered Most of it comes back to the UK in various way including the salaries of MSPs, EC commissioners and EU & EC employees from the UK.

      There are many unsung EU benefits all over the UK. For example – outside the line of cottages I live in is a parking area between the footpath and the road.

      This area used to be unusable and an unbelievable hazard. Especially in Winter when it became a very deep, porridge like, area of mud.

      All this was changed by an EU scheme that granted funds to former coal mining areas to improve the environments spoiled by the coal mining industries.

      This scheme included the removal of the old bings. Anyway, they found out, while attempting to lay the parking area with brick sets, that the storm water drainage beneath the sea of mud was all over the place due to coal mine subsidence.

      In effect all the storm water from the whole of Kelty was draining into the area in front of our cottages on its way down to Loch Ore.

      In spite of the many complaints, the Labour led Fife Council did absolutely nothing to cure the problem while they then still had control over water and sewage. The EU did fix it even if indirectly.

      So the point is that the United Kingdom tax payer’s money is returned to the UK taxpayers from the EU but the Westminster, “Cunning Brexit Plan”, aims to retain control of the UK taxpayer’s money that goes to the EU for the benefit of the Westminster Establishment.

      The Westminster Establishment will thus be made richer and, as usual, the UK taxpayer will be made even poorer.

    447. schrodingers cat says:

      Face it – how many genuine fence sitters have you read here on Wings?

      eric joyce was a no, moved to yes, even posted here

      take yer point about preaching to the converted,

    448. colin alexander says:

      We know the media tells lies, distorts etc. It’s no bad thing to expose this. Yet, we will never be able to stop that, no matter how much it is exposed.

      Personally, I am looking for more positive discussion for independence but, also discussion of the problems involved in becoming a prosperous independent country.

      Alex Salmond’s debate where he was talking about how Better Together warned of UFO’s did nothing to encourage a Yes vote.

      Similarly, repeatedly showing how the media misleads only confirms what we already know.

      It does not convince anyone that they and their family will be better off voting for independence for Scotland.

      We should also try to end the idea that support for the SNP means support for independence and that support for independence means support for the SNP.

      They aren’t necessarily the same. A considerable proportion of SNP voters, we are told, did not vote Yes. At the time, many Labour supporters did vote Yes. However, most of that Labour vote seems to have shifted to support for the SNP – or the Tories.

      I acknowledge that currently the most powerful proponents of Scottish independence are the SNP.

      As others have said. We need answers to how we can win an independence vote.

      You will probably never convince the “little Englander” pensioners who make up a considerable proportion of the population of Dumfries and Galloway, Borders and Highlands.

      They are quite happy to live “the good life” with a Tory Government in Westminster that favours their economic circumstances. They often have no interest in economic deprivation in Glasgow etc.

      Therefore, you need to convince enough of the other English and other people who do not have a closed mind.

      Pensioners are often scared of change. They want everything to stay the same, if they are currently happy and financially secure. They older they become, they more they worry.

      Project Fear scored a huge success with preying on the worries of pensioners. Yes failed to convince pensioners that voting No was the scarier option.

      The lack of Yes’s answers about the economy, the pound and pensions during the transistion from a yes vote and till an indpendent Scotland is fully up and running, was a disaster.

      There was too much focus in the White Paper on the SNP’s dreams of how an independent Scotland should be.

      From monarchy, defence, economic policies etc it was an SNP wishlist. Fantasy politics. Full of presumptions on the price of oil and presuming co-operation from Westminster.

      People want to be reassured that a vote for independence will not leave them and their families worse off. They would probably like to be convinced it will probably make them better off.

      Brexit is a mess of uncertainty as it involves negotiations with an EU that is cheesed off with the UK ( that includes Scotland).

      Scottish independence – as we saw – will involve a extremely hostile UK – and its many allies.

      We cannot presume co-operation from Westminster. We need answers on how to achieve successful independence arrangements under those circumstances.

      Lots of unanswered questions. Lots of work to do.

      We can spend it arguing the toss with Unionist propagandists, but that seems to me like a waste of time we could be spending working out our answers to the how to win and how to transition to independence.

      What many of the government policies should be once independent should be answered by the electorate of an independent Scotland.

      It should not be assumed that the current SNP policies is what an independent Scotland would choose and so should not be the basis of any future White Paper on independence. Unfortunately, I don’t see the SNP learning that lesson.

      If more and more “rule Britannia” Brexiteers continue their influx to retirement in “North Britain” – and are given the vote in any future referendum as soon as they arrive here- it’s a Yes vote that could become harder and harder to win.

    449. Legerwood says:

      Interesting article in the Herald about the BBC Trust upholding a complaint against BBC News and Laura Keunsberg over her reporting of an interview with Jeremy Corbyn.

      Apparently they are going to revisit their decision to uphold the complaint because it was a draft one. Final decision this month – after Ms Keunsberg has her say.

      Cannot give link – no archiving facility on tablet and no Herald subscription to get the full article.

    450. Macandroid says:

      heedtracker @ 11:16

      Stuart McHardy agrees with you about the origin of the first Scots not being from Ireland.
      See Scotland’s Future History by Stuart McHardy

    451. Dr Jim says:

      Almost every day not so long ago Ruth Davidson was baring her teeth and jabbing her finger at Brexters and calling them all liars

      Almost every day now Ruth Davidson is baring her teeth and jabbing her finger and telling us we have to put up with the same liars she said we shouldn’t put up with

      This no surrender party Ruth Davidson’s created surrenders a lot

    452. Robert Peffers says:

      call me dave says: 3 January, 2017 at 2:43 pm:

      “I was of an age then to be paraded along with the full primary school from Hill of Beath to Cowdenbeath to wave as the rolls royce with Queenie & Dukie swept slowly past, with the windows up.
      Geez it was a cold day she was going Kelty bound…why I don’t know.”

      Ah! Yes! Dave, but I believe you may be wrong about Her Maj heading for Kelty. If my memory does not fail me, the Royal vehicle headed towards Lochgelly from Cowdenbeath. There was quite a stir in the local rags at the time as the then council spent a fortune to clear up the area between Cowdenbeath and Lochgelly. This included painting the council houses on the route between Cowdenbeath, Lumphinnans and Lochgelly.

      I remember having a good laugh at the time because Fife Council even had wee covers made to slip over the Ladies and Gentlemen signs on public toilets on the route the Royals were taking. Aiblins the cooncillors micht hae jaloused Her Maj disna gae tae yaise the shunky.

      (Owersettin intil the Inglis), “Perhaps the councillors may have thought The Queen does not require the use of toilet bowls”

      What else can you do but laugh at such a strange line of councillor’s thinking?

      Bear in mind that at that time the area of council houses in, especially Lumphinnans, were bordering upon slum standards. Was not that area then locally called the Jungle? or something like that?

    453. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Many thanks for your reply and viewpoint. Some of which I would agree with but with some…

      “Aye! Why not get in on the SNP BAAD Westminster mantra, Graf Midgehunter – after all everyone else is doing the same. From her Majesty purring to the Orkney councillors who want Orkney to be independent from Scotland.”

      Bollocks. It has nothing to do with SNP BAAD but only with highlighting something which happens to be one of the (very few) weak links in the present SNP chain. An important one because it has to do with COMMUNICATION.

      “The problem with spending time, effort and money of producing a more informative SNP party website is twofold. First of all a lot of it is an SNP members only zone.

      In any case it defeats the purpose as it shares the same weak link that Wings has to contend with. Both are preaching to the already converted.

      In other words it is the already converted from both pro and anti independence who visit wings. If you were to be canvassing on the doorstep and asked the householders there if they read wings you would find that only already converted independence supporters even knew Wings existed and a few very committed Yoon activists were among the readership.”

      Yes that’s true but just about everyone knows the SNP. The leading party of Scotland with majorties of MPs/MSPs in WM and Holyrood, Superb world class politicians NS, AS etc. The governing party of Scotland. 120.000 members and some cash in the bank.

      Because we’re dominated by the BBC/MSM we have very few possibilities to get the positive YES message out to the majority of the population so we need to be inventive to circumnavigate their dominance. We MUST build up and use our own COMMUNICATIONS NETWORK.

      We need EVERY tool in the box that we can get hold of and that includes the SNP website.

      “So the SNP’s website is preaching to the converted and even dedicated Wingers seem rather reluctant to goto the SG’s Holyrood website for information and fewer still the Westminster Parliament’s website.”

      If the SNP website is an unattractive soup, lacking in valuable info and mostly locked up for members, then what do you expect?

      It should be one of the go-to sites (with WOS) for questions about Sovereingity, oil/gas, pensions, events, YouTube vids etc. Modern/attractive, easy to use.

      Make it something everyone WANTS to look at and use.

      I want the us/SNP to win and that means if there are any weak points, find them and get them sorted out so we can go for gold.
      We should be doing this now in preparation for the upcoming battle and not later when it’ll be too late because there’rs no time left and events move quickly.

      AND for about the 10-15 time:

      Live or per catch-up for the truth. NOT the BBC.

    454. Robert Peffers says:

      @frogesque says: 3 January, 2017 at 9:45 pm:

      spytell or spitell as a poor or almshouse caring for lepers and other unfortunates.

      Indeed and there are still several street names still in use today. Spital Street in Edinburgh, comes to mind.

      The old Scottish alphabet had the letter, “s”, written as the current letter, “f”. Then we had the, “Yocht” for example. There were several extra letters in the old Scots alphabet that do not happen to be in the English alphabet.
      These included the, “Yocht”, as used in the name Menzes. In Scots, “Menzis”, is pronounced as, “Mingis”. The Yocht, as written, was something like the English letter, “z”, but it had a long lower tail as in, “g”, or, “y”.

      This thus accounts for some of the strange local placename ponunciations found around Scotland. Old printed books used an also extended the letter, “s”, that makes it look like the letter, “f”. This is still used in a similar fashion today in the calculus symbol for integration.
      So, “hofpitals”, is indeed, “Hospitals”, and, “Spiftals”, is Spitals”.

      Here is another common modern error. The word, “Gate”, in Lowland Scots means street or road – as in, “The Canongate”, = “the street of the canon”, and that’s, “canon”, as in canon of the Kirk and NOT, “cannon”, as in big gun. Note there is the, “Canongate Kirk”, and the, “Canongate Kirkyard”, associated with the Canongate.

      So if I was saying to you, “Ah gaed ben the yett, ower the cossie an stravaiged alang the gate”.(This is Lallans, (Lowland), Scots and a language in its own right with tunes, (dialects), of Lallans, such as the Doric.

      It would owerset intil the Inglis, (translate into English), as, “I went through the gate, over the footpath and walked aimlessly along the street/road”.

      Both of which languages are quite different from, “Scottish Standard English”, which is really a dialect of English.

      Sae noo ye ken.

    455. call me dave says:

      @Robert Peffers
      End of thread so I’ll use a wee space.

      I was near the North end of Cowdenbeath on the day and must have heard that Queenie was going to Kelty 🙂

      Jungle… ‘Lochore’ I think
      Happy land… Lochgelly I’m sure.

      My auntie lived in Lumphinnans, at first in terraced slum houses near the primary school and later in the ‘new prefabs’.

      I remember the miners row type houses well, same as the ones in Hill of Beath where the man who brought my father up lived in No1 Engine Row.
      There were bits of Lumphinnans still like this when I was about 10 yrs old.

      We lived in a prefab Hawthorn Cres in Hill of Beath from the time I can remember and earned money from cleaning the bricks from the old miner’s rows which were being demolished and recycled at the end of the 50’s for the houses that now stand there.

      Only 3/6 (less than 20p) a hundred if I recall right. 🙂

      Happy days not!

      Enjoy all your posts.

    456. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 11.22

      You wrote “The point about those contributions is that they are not a subsidy from the UK to Brussels”

      Robert, in the the comments I made above, and on previous threads, I have only talked about our “Net contribution”. We pay in far more and, indeed, the EU spends some of that money back in the UK (including, doubtless, dealing with puddles in your area).

      On the following site: … you will find a full explanation of the subject including a graph showing the UK’s growing, net cost position which was £8.5 Billion in 2015 (a year ago). I believe the net figure in 2016 was £10 Billion or thereabouts.

      That is our net cost for receiving all of the benefits of being in the EU Robert.

      Maybe your comments reveal why you hold the views that you do – i.e. you haven’t even got handle on the basics. Once again, you are so quick to pick a fight because of what you believe I stand for, or because you think you know my motives, or because I don’t vote for the SNP (btw, I can’t anyway) – you miss the point and demonstrate a profound ignorance of the subject at hand.

      The site referenced above appears to present a pretty clear picture of the numbers – unless of course you have some others that you would like to share?

    457. A lesson to anyone wanting to get into journalism,

      forget principles,

      forget truth,

      forget humanity,

      forget consequences,

      forget morality,

      forget ethics,

      if you can do all that, then Murray Foote the editor of the rag Daily Record would be happy to recruit you.

    458. Stu Mac says:

      @Robert Peffers says:
      4 January, 2017 at 1:29 pm
      @frogesque says: 3 January, 2017 at 9:45 pm:

      “Gate” or “gait” is from Norse which influenced the Old Northumbrian that grew into Scots. As in “he aye gangs his own gate”: “he always goes his own way (does his own thing)”.

      Lallans though is not the same as Lowland Scots. It is actually to some extent an artificial language using both living Scots from all over Scotland and lexis from old Scots dictionaries and old literary texts (which had long gone out of use at the time). It was created during the Scots literary revival of the early 20th century. It is a sign of the genius of some of the writers who used it that they were able to write some wonderful poetry using it.

      Doric is the (still living) dialect of the north-east of Scotland – it’s not used to describe Lowlands Scots.

    459. Chick McGregor says:

      Ah bide oan Glengate in Kirrie. Monies the time whaun Ah gie mah address Ah’m spiert whithertis ‘Glengate Road/Avenue/Street’ an hiv tae lachingly explain

      Inglis joke:

      Hugh: I say, I say, I say, my wife went to the Caribbean on holiday last year.

      George: Jamaica?

      Hugh: No, she went of her own accord.

      Glesca version:

      Shug: Mah missus went tae yin o the lesser visited Caribbean islands last year.

      Dods: Haiti?

      Shug: Naw, she cuild hae goan tae ane o the mair popular yins if she wantit.

    460. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 3 January, 2017 at 11:16 pm

      ” … but it is a constitutional monarchy, whatever that means.”

      It means that legally the monarchy, while still legally the owner of the whole boorach, (that is ONLY England, Wales and N. Ireland), and all who sail in HMS Kingdom of England are her property but the monarchy have legally delegated the Parliament of the Kingdom of England to use the Royal Divine Right of Kings.

      It does NOT include Scotland for that legal delegation was in 1688 and in 1320 Scotland changed her monarchy to the monarchy only being the Protector of the Sovereign People of Scotland’s sovereignty.

      ” … their Scotland region is named after the Scotti tribe that colonised Scotland from Ireland. That’s UKOK pants worth hanging out to dry. One word “scotti” in a minor Roman history, and that’s it, no archeology, not in Scotland nor Ireland, nothing and yet this “Scotti” is Scotland myth also gets pimped out, where ever you go too. Funny that.”

      Well no, actually, Heedtracker – there is now archaeological evidence – but it is that the artefacts being dug up on Scottish sea stacks and hard to land on islands predates those on the Irish coastal islands and mainland. This indicates what I’ve known for years. The Scotii, (or whatever they were called), were logically a tribe that inhabited the shores all around the Irish Sea.

      The logic is simple. The shortest distance between Scotland & Ireland is less than 25 Miles and as the land was covered by dense forest, (The Great Caledonian Forest), it was the sea and the rivers that were the superhighways of the time.

      So as the most recent artefacts from Scotland predate those in Ireland there is only two conclusions – either the migration was from Scotland to Ireland or more likely that the people all around the sea area were one and the same tribe.

    461. K1 says:

      28The CJEU was not concerned by that differentiation and applied its past case law to the effect that “the prohibition on discrimination is not concerned with any disparities in treatment which may result, between the Member States, from divergences existing between the legislation of the various Member States so long as that legislation affects equally all persons subject to it”.29 The effect of this decision is that in areas in which regional or devolved authorities of the Member States are autonomously competent to adopt rules implementing EU law they will, from the viewpoint of EU law, be equated to Member States.

      Oooft! They’re no gonnae like that ur they!

      They cannot apply the Royal Perogative tae Scotland, it simply cannot be Lawfully applied.

    462. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “It should not be assumed that the current SNP policies is what an independent Scotland would choose and so should not be the basis of any future White Paper on independence.”

      That point was, of course, made explicitly in the White Paper itself.

    463. imacomputerbuddie says:

      Andrew Neil let slip that the snp were sitting at 60% on a yougov poll i went looking for this on the net i could not find it anywhere. I did find lots of news saying the SNP were finished.

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