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Girls And Boys

Posted on May 23, 2018 by

The phrase “the Labour Party has gotten itself into a catastrophic mess on [X]” is a sentence you can complete with almost any subject these days, whether it’s Brexit or anti-Semitism or anti-Asian racism or factionalism or Venezuela or just about anything else under the sun, so it should be no surprise that its gender policy is no different.

The party’s stance regarding all-women shortlists is now that men can be on them, so long as they say they’re women, with no questions asked, except when Labour decide arbitrarily that they aren’t really women at all because they’re obviously really men, except for all the other occasions when they’re obviously really men.

Which seemed like a timely moment for some more new poll data.

Back in January we had Panelbase ask the opinion of Scottish voters about new proposals for “self-ID” of gender which are being planned by both the Scottish and UK governments. We found that the electorate in Scotland was overwhelmingly opposed to the idea, by a margin of more than 3:1 (of those expressing a view either way).

And now we can say that English voters feel almost exactly the same.

(NB We asked both the Scottish and English samples the exact same question, the above is an abridged version from the data tables.)

For easy reference, the precise figures come out to:

SCOTLAND (excluding DKs)

Good idea: 23.3%
Bad idea: 76.7%

ENGLAND (excluding DKs)

Good idea: 25.4%
Bad idea: 74.6%

Women, unsurprisingly, are more opposed to the proposals than men, although it’s not terribly close on either side (men are 5:2 against, women are 7:2 against). Opposition goes right across every demographic group – sex, age, social class, party support, national identity, Brexit views, homeowners and tenants, you name it.

(Young men were the most likely to back the idea, but were still against it overall by almost 60-40. Strongest opposition came from older women – the group most likely to remember how hard-fought women’s rights were – at a crushing 88-12.)

Perhaps not coincidentally, our poll also found what looks like a sharp drop in Labour support among women. Our voting-intention question revealed a strikingly large 11% lead for the Tories over Labour among women, versus a 3% Labour lead among men:

Because our poll was England-only we can’t draw exact like-for-like comparisons, but if we set those results against some (UK-wide) polls from before the recent focus on, and controversy over, Labour’s transgender policy, it’s hard to miss the contrast or to write it off as a mere sampling difference.

February 2018, YouGov: Labour lead of 8% among women

December 2017, YouGov: Labour lead of 5% among women

October 2017, YouGov: Labour lead of 7% among women

August 2017, YouGov: Labour lead of 10% among women

July 2017, YouGov: Labour lead of 13% among women

With polling currently on a knife-edge, that 24-point movement towards the Tories by women could easily be enough to swing the outcome of a general election if Theresa May really is sufficiently insane to call one in the autumn. The most recent like-for-like YouGov poll also has the Tories ahead among women.

(The Tories, of course, are the ones who are actually bringing self-ID forward as policy, but Labour have deftly managed to draw most of the feminist anger about the issue onto themselves, and it’s hard to think of any other explanation that could be behind women’s sudden large-scale desertion of the party.)

With no party in Parliament willing to represent the overwhelming majority of voters and oppose the tiny but extremely vocal – and often violent – minority demanding self-ID, it looks as though a microscopic number of people might be about to effectively determine the UK’s entire future.

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    1. 23 05 18 12:56

      Girls And Boys | speymouth

    256 to “Girls And Boys”

    1. mike cassidy says:

      So Labour officially have no sense of humour.

      Me, I identify as black because I listen to reggae on Fridays!

    2. Muscleguy says:

      While transgender people may well see the old recognition rules are over onerous and degrading I’m not sure complete lassez faire as a response is sensible either. Surely it cannot be beyond the wit of humankind to find a middle road?

      Also the rights of transgender people cannot be allowed to trump the rights of biological women. Why is it up to the women to accommodate men with penises in their changing rooms?

      There was a case recently of a transgender woman in a changing room, naked, with not just a penis but an erect penis. That sort of thing should not have to be tolerated.

    3. HandandShrimp says:

      As someone who wanted to self identify as a Venezuelan Jewish Fruit Bat I am gutted that people don’t understand this process*.

      * OK I don’t understand this. People who genuinely want to gender reassign and become a man or a woman from whatever start point is fine by me and they have my sympathy and best wishes for what will be a difficult road but it seems to have become very weird very quickly.

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Surely it cannot be beyond the wit of humankind to find a middle road?”

      The existing law IS the middle road. The fact of the matter is that nobody can ever really change their sex, but the law has compromised and allowed people to pretend at an official level that they have, so long as they meet a few conditions and safeguards designed to prevent abuse. What’s being proposed now is that those conditions are all waived.

    5. Macart says:

      Pretty much impossible to change what you are in this life. Maybe more folk should focus on who they are.

    6. Ali says:

      Suicide attempts amongst transgender people are extremely high – about ten times the average rate. Almost half of transgender people have attempted suicide. 60% have self harmed. They are among the most vulnerable members of our society and this doesn’t help.

      If you’d conducted a poll about homosexuals in the 50s you might have found similar results. Maybe it shows all those trans awareness days haven’t quite reached far enough.

      Allowing trans people to self-identify is simply the right thing to do. If 60% of people said that homosexuality was a sin we would tell them to f. off. Which is what we finally did and is exactly what should happen here.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      Can I self identify as an alien ? That’s because I’m beginning to feel like one in this crazy world. Genuine cases fine, but what an open door to universal abuse considering all the high profile cases of abuse emerging over the last decade.

      Politicians who support this need help.

    8. dakk says:

      If it’s old women who don’t like transgender,and it’s Labour who have suspended the part-time transgender candidate,then you would expect the old ladies to commend Labour for that.

      Not leave the party,and switch support to the party which is proposing the legislation.

      Maybe I’ve read it wrong ,or maybe old women are just a fickle bunch of old Nazi whores.

    9. paul gerard mccormack says:

      hmmm girls and boys.

      If only it were so simple. Last i looked on ‘t internet there were 56 classified types of gender. – and there’s the issue methinks.

      Society has to control who’s who and for that they need a self-serving bureaucracy and a technocracy for enforcement. They need to put human beings into boxes so their names can go into little yellow folders as type A, type A+, type AB and so on ad nauseum.

      Here’s my naive solution. Just let folk get on with their lives. Nothing has happened. Tis same as it ever was. My heart goes out to those not conforming to societies default norms.

      By the way, I thought this quote at the end of the article was at least amusing – ‘Basingstoke CLP have been contacted for comment.’

      Nuff said.

    10. HandandShrimp says:


      Isn’t the issue not support and help for people on the transgender road which I think most people would say is a good thing but rather the extreme and fairly aggressive exchanges between feminist and identity politics advocates. Those who are on the transgender road seem to be the ones caught in the crossfire.

    11. mike cassidy says:

      It is important to realise the guy was extracting the urine on the Labour Party’s policy to open women’s officer roles – previously ‘restricted’ to biological women – to males who self-identify as women.

    12. Clootie says:

      You cannot award someone “”rights” if it undermines the rights/respect of a great deal many more people.
      I don’t know how t solve it but the one example I have shapes my comment.

      A male offshore decided to identify himself as female. Obviously cabin sharing offshore is the norm and regulations prevent different sexes sharing. A young female graduate was then pressured to share with the identified female using comments about “career performance review”.

      Those with gender identification issues should be considered but NOT at the cost to others.

    13. Eppy says:

      I have to say that I am with Ali (11.27) on this one.

      Two years ago I was pretty clueless on the subject of transgender issues and politics then my teenager came out as trans. A steep learning curve has since followed.

      I have since met parents of other trans children, some of them accepting, some of them hurt, lost and bewildered. For both parents and young people it is not a laughing matter.

      For some young people without parental support they face huge hurdles and not being allowed to self-identify compounds these problems.

      I remember people making unpleasant jokes about gays in the 70’s and 80’s. Let’s not be intolerant now. This is a growing and serious problem. Most of the secondary schools in this area have at least one openly trans child. (Incidentally, most are female to male.)

      The problem more lies with people who are not trans but are exploiting the system for their own gain. Shame on them.

    14. ahundredthidiot says:

      and this is why political parties should never ever play identity politics – it’s a loser every time.

      And since when did we decide to throw established scientific biological facts out the window for fear of offending a tiny minority of people.

      There is two sexes, Male and female, nothing in between and nobody should be apologising for that.

    15. Schrodingers cat says:

      I don’t really understand the issue. People should be allowed to identify themselves however they want.
      The few situations where conflicts arise. Eg. Specific gender roles in sport. Public toilets are so limited that they shouldn’t really get the amount of publicity they do when sensible solutions are always available

    16. mogabee says:

      There are only 2 sexes, male and female so why do so many get confused by that?

      Women are being pushed out of this debate if they challenge the supposed ‘mainline’ opinion that self ID is the way to go.

      Too many are shouting us down and pretending we are transphobic…absolute bloody crap. We are pointing out that this issue goes WAAAY beyond toilets and changing rooms and could undermine years of gender equality.

      The above article shows how ridiculous this farce has become.

      Many thanks Stu, another great article, full of facts.

    17. Liz g says:

      Ali @ 11.27
      Good points,and I’d never want anyone to suffer like that.
      So without any snide comments and an admission that I have very little understanding of the issues,so can only speak from my experience.

      Can I ask ….
      How is a young mum supposed to judge when to stay at the table or on the shop floor,and let her..5,6,7,..12,13,14?? Year old use a public toilet?

      Now I am not sayin Trans ( hope that’s the right term,as I said I’m quite ignorant) people are perverts who target children….
      What I am sayin is Pedeos go to any lengths to get to children,and not being questioned when in a relativity quiet space,with a lockable door…well you can see the problem..for young parents when out and about.
      Even up to a certain age wee boy’s use the ladies unless the are with their dad.

      Surely a “Trans”adult is better equipped to deal with the men’s toilets,than a kid?
      And I cannot believe that such a persecuted group of people,would not be horrified should kid’s being targeted by perverts was helped by their struggle!

      It’s not the concept I have a problem with at all…I just haven’t heard how this actually work’s on a practical level,all across a lot of society,but having been a mum out and about with young children,this is where I could see it causing my freedoms to be getting dialled back,or putting my kid’s at risk.
      Not even getting to when yer older girls are out in night club’s and the toilets there are mixed.. (again the lockable door)
      I do realise at a society we must all move as fast as our slowest,but for me that IS the kid’s!
      And I think that’s why we are seeing the above poll results,from older women who have had to deal with toilet/changing room issues,and don’t need them to become any more complicated?

    18. Schrodingers cat says:

      Man walks down road with pink suede welly boot on his head.

      Another man stops him and laughingly asks. Why have you got a pink suede welly bolt on yer head?

      The 1st man replies. I alwaYs wear a pink suede welly boot on my head on Tuesdays.

      The 2nd man says. But it’s Wednesday?

      The 1st man replies. Huh!what a fool I must look?

    19. Cuilean says:

      Women will vote with their feet. If shops have communal changing rooms, women won’t shop there.

      If sports events have men self-identifying as female, women athletes should boycott these. (Then only men will win all the ‘women’ athletics, in their male bodies which we are to pretend are women’s bodies, when they are not. Is this fair?

      Up and coming tennis stars (male) can now choose to self-identify as female and enter Wimbledon in the female draw etc. etc. Can you imagine it?

      This is political correctness gone mad.

    20. Schrodingers cat says:

      Point being. I am neither gays nor trans. I see gays and trans in the street. I might think they look a bit odd but no more so than straight folk. And if isn’t hurting me then I don’t see how it is any of my business. Live and let live

    21. Cactus says:

      X days remaining to go…

      All girls n boys welcome.

      High noon.

    22. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers cat @ 12.09
      See that’s where I disagree,Public Toilets and changing room logistics are an almost daily consideration for young parents.
      Its not a little thing,it’s the bane of yer life for year’s.
      And I forgot to add above,that I would be just as concerned about my son in a mixed gender night club toilet,being left open to accusations as well!

    23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Suicide attempts amongst transgender people are extremely high – about ten times the average rate. Almost half of transgender people have attempted suicide. 60% have self harmed. They are among the most vulnerable members of our society and this doesn’t help.”

      Almost all of the oft-quoted stats about transgender suicide are bollocks.

    24. Kirsty says:

      Women have actually been allies of transgender people for years. No one wants to take transgender ‘rights’ away but many women fail to see why our rights should be taken away (given that women are also a vulnerable group) to accommodate someone else’s. So far from being ‘Nazi whores’ (btw, thanks for being so glaring with your misogyny, Dakk dear. Im sure you’re very special), women are simply trying to ensure that women and our hard won rights are protected too.

      Obvs men aren’t losing any rights here which is probably why so many of them think it’s no big deal. As a woman, I am concerned about intact males being put in women’s prisons, refuges, sharing girls’ tents and changing rooms in school, competing against women in our sports and thus having massive advantages over us, etc. Sorry not sorry if these concerns seem unimportant to men, I have them nevertheless. Responding to these concerns with threats of violence and disgusting misogyny isn’t making me feel any less concerned.

      Incidentally, don’t be so sure this won’t fuck up an Indy ref too since the Greens have gone insane with their whole ‘men’ and ‘non men’ crap and the SNP are going the same way. I can’t change my sex, being Scottish is incidental. If it’s a choice between protecting women and independence, I’m going to have to go with women every time. Be helpful if people weren’t blithely calling women ‘Nazi whores’ too but there’s no point getting idealistic.

    25. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Maybe I’ve read it wrong”

      You’ve read it wrong.

    26. Effijy says:

      I identify as a Scot 7 days a week but Westminster
      and the Red and Blue Tories can’t understand it
      And won’t have it.

    27. taysidefrog says:

      The fact that there is a lot of self harm and psychiatric illness in people with gender dysphoria is not an argument for self ID.
      Unlike homosexuality transexuality does impact on other people.
      Also whilst I believe a man can be attracted to another man I don’t believe a man can become a woman.
      A man can try to look like a woman and may be happier identifying as a woman but he will still have a Y chromosome, male physiology and many male features.
      Many men identifying as women also have no desire to have their penises removed but still wish to use female facilities and prisons.
      Transwomen ie male to female transexuals negatively affect women in their participation in women’s sports, by wanting included on women’s lists and groups in political parties, by wanting to enter women’s changing rooms and prisons when they still have penises.
      Being a woman is not just a fluffy feminine feeling.
      I think society needs to move away from rigid sexual stereotypes so people don’t feel they are the wrong gender and being a man can encompass gentle feminine people as well as tough macho ones.

    28. Schrodingers cat says:

      A 25 stone big fat builder walks into a pub with a tiny budgerigar on his fore finger and shouts out loudly. The person who can guess the weight of this budgie correctly can fukc me in arse.

      A wag at the bar replies. 2 tons

      The builder replies. Thats close enough ?

      Point being. There is nothing as queer as folk

    29. Artyhetty says:

      Isn’t this about it changing the law so that any man could self ID, and use womens tiolets in public places for example? Aren’t there laws to protect transexual people via the equality act? Maybe not. Would need to look that up.

      Personally, sharing a public loo with men is a complete no-no. Liz has a point about children and parents, that’s a huge worry.

      Last year I was assaulted in the street by someone, it was hard to tell their gender and they appeared female, but was actually male. I would not like to have been in an enclosed space right then, and a result is I avoid men walking too close in the street, not women!

      We need to be rational about this, sensible, protect all people, not putting some at risk for self ID. It’s getting silly now,
      we can protect transgender people without putting other people at risk in any way.

      I wholly disagree with self ID. It’s too risky for all sorts of reasons, for both men and women!

    30. Hairy Jack says:


      Without doubt, mental illness is a huge problem among the transgendered community, and the rates of suicide experienced by these people is no joke and is deserving of public sympathy and medical research.

      I have yet to see any clinical observational study (or controlled study) which proves that genital self-mutilation and hormonal supplient are a longterm answer to this medical disorder.

    31. Muscleguy says:

      It is not quite that simple. It seems possible to have one gender body but another gender’s brain. This seems to be at least part of the problem.

      Another one as I understand it is that a lot of young people who initially present as transgender go on simply to be gay or lesbian. Trans Activists putting pressure on people to choose absolutely at young ages is part of the problem.

      Let people be as they want to be, but also don’t straitjacket them with just one label. Young people change, it is part of being young.

    32. Schrodingers cat says:

      Small children should always be accompanied when using public toilets

      Not all men are comfortable waving their wellies at urinals in gents toilets in front of men. Gays or trans. But they don’t have to since mens toilets have toilet cubicles too

      Women’s toilets also have such cubicles so the argument isn’t about going to the toilet in public but whether you are comfortable washing your hands in the same room as a gays or trans person. As I said. It don’t bother me.

      As for women’s roles in society. Changing g sex isn’t a quick process a day if you can prove you have been living your life as a women for a number of years. I can’t see why you can’t be a women’s officer inot a branch of a political party

    33. Hairy Jack says:

      Also, while genuine transexuals deserve the support of everyone (including women), how on earth are people supposed to distinguish a a ‘real’ transexual from a predatory, straight, hetero-normative man who may be pretending to be transgendered in order to gain access to female-only areas? There are a lot of sick men out there who would potentially take advantage of this legal loophole (stalkers, rapists, peados).

      To expect all females to put up with potential threats to their safety in order to accommodate the ‘feelings’ of a small minority of transexuals is not acceptable policy.

    34. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers cat @ 12.57
      Aye well that bartender says…
      Sorry big fat builder,but since we have all been watching yon advert telling wimmin not to just take any parking space like all men can,but to think if it’s a safe spot to return to at night.
      The 60+ wimmin in the room have got talking,turns oot every single one of them have been cornered and touched while going about their business at some point,some more than once.
      I am so shocked that fucking is the last thing on my mind.

      Ye see Shrodingers Cat,if you put a group of women together you will find that the “as long as their not hurtling me” defence wont fly.
      Women have to be mindful of the situations they are in every day all the time,and the woman without a story to tell is usually the expectation not the rule.
      One of these considerations (children excepted) is if you walk in to a public toilet and there’s a man in there -leave-

    35. Ken500 says:

      It is better separate toilets but women’s have separate cubicles in any case. So any mixed gender has to use them. There are mixed toilets in a St Andrew’s restaurant. The doors just have M or F on them. Same entrance. No trouble. Swimming pools have mixed changing rooms. No problems. Much to do about nothing. Storm in a tea cup. Mountain out of molehills. An extremely small % of the pop. Disabled toilets could be used. Toilets on trains are often stinking. Mixed gender.

    36. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      This is one of those times you know you’re on some guy’s personal blog, and the feeling of it being part of a surging, morphic political movement kind of dissolves.

      Still, better than the Irn Bru poll. Or did I dream that?

    37. Douglas says:

      Mmm, the left always seem to be lacking in self-awareness when it comes to identity politics, amongst other things! When I was a student in further education during the late 70s early 80s, the university had a Gay Society (or GaySoc as it was usually referred to, which always made it sound like some secret Orwellian club!) for the benefit of gay students attending uni. There was none of this LGBTQI stuff at the time!!!

      Anyways, there was a group of “champagne socialists” who were a group of students from fairly well-off backgrounds who dominated proceedings and used identity politics (this meant that they would veto the right to include or not include other people whether they were LGBTQI or not by ignoring them or not inviting them) to undermine anything, whether it was fundraising, social nights, film nights, discos or whatever the society was planning to do if it was not to their advantage or convenience.

      As a result, the society fractured into cliques because most people were not keen in being dominated by a certain few, eventually the “champagne socialists” stuck together, became isolated and were referred to as “The Politburo” when everyone else just got on with life, enjoyed each others company and had a great time!!!

      I often wonder what happened to “The Politburo” since those days and I suspect they reverted back to type and become conservatives, or failing that are now red tories!!!

      Unless someone is making a total erse of themselves, what people do is no one elses business and we should just let people get on and live and let live!

    38. ahundredthidiot says:


      What sort of argument is ‘Young people change, it is part of being young’?

      So…can a 17 year old wake up and decide to be a dog? or a giraffe? Point is muscleguy – you cant just DECIDE to be something biologically different.

      This nonsense needs to stop, everyone knows that, but too few people are brave enough to say it. Maybe do a bit of research into where this madness leads – I suggest Canada with the troubles and tribulations with one of their University Professors who dared to deny using ‘forced speech’.

      This issue leads into the very attack on free speech currently underway in western societies. It should be taken seriously, lest we forget.

    39. orri says:

      Would a self identified “woman” be treated seriously if they went to a gynecologist? Especially if they had no medical intervention or gender re-alignment.

      Why is it that we’re being led down a binary path where you’re either a man or non-man. Seems that’s the main issue as it’s women who’re being asked/forced to budge up and make room.

      Discrimination should be differentiated from accommodation. Toilets and changing rooms are places where people get various stages of undress. Even if the level of vulnerability is minimal it’s still there. Added to which in most case a woman has to sit down to pee so the law stipulates what an employer must supply based on gender.

    40. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers cat @ 1.16
      Its not the hand basins…its the lockable doors and the seclusion.
      And you have obviously never had your meal cleared away because the 10 year old had to go.
      Ye have to take yer bags the other younger kid’s… or do you have a particular age in mind to define very young children?

    41. Ken500 says:

      Women often do not feel threatened by gay people. They get on with them. It is often men who take exception. Younger people can be are more accepting. More common nowadays? For people to act freer. Gay, straight no one cares. Most gay folk have a good sense of humour and can be gregarious. Lovely people. It’s a shame they have so much self doubt. At least nowadays they can be who they want to be. Hopefully. 2% of the pop but it is reckoned up to 10%. Shame they do not feel comfortable to be true to themselves.

    42. Ken500 says:

      Women are more likely to be attacked at home by a known person than in toilets or changing rooms. Domestic abuse.

    43. dakk says:

      ‘You’ve read it wrong.’

      Apologies,I missed the bit about what the party’s stance now was.

      Still think that the old female demographic are brutal.

    44. Mumof|Many says:

      I’ve noticed that if people are asked simply if they’d mind ‘gender-neutral’ toilets – which have existed in various places for some years – they’re generally fine about it. Why would they not be? There doesn’t seem to be much of a threat, does there?

      If the questions were posed – and I can’t see that they have been so far – such that the following were asked:

      * Are you happy that a woman who asked for a woman to peform her smear test might find it’s a TIM, complete with penis and beard and she’d be accued of transphobia if she refused?*

      *Are you happy that TIMs (or men claiming to be TIMs for the purpose of entering such a space), complete with penis, would be able to be naked in a gym or pool women’s changing room alongside you, your 13 year old daughter and/or your 3 year old granddaughter?

      Are you happy that TIMs (or men claiming to be TIMs for the purpose of entering such a space) might be able to take places in a women’s refuge or apply for jobs there?

      Are you happy that TIMs will be able to enter women’s elite sports and thereby ensure that no woman can compete at elite level and hope to win again?

      Are you happy that TIMs (or men claiming to be so) will be able to take scholarships, jobs, places reserved for women previously to try to improve conditons for women?

      I doubt there’d be much “happiness” expressed at all.

    45. Liz g says:

      Ken 500 @ 1.42
      Well yes,but we’re no just talking about an actual attack.
      Being cornered.
      Being touched.
      Invading personal space.
      Being invited to touch.
      Being shown what you are supposed to touch.
      Even just blocking the exit….
      That’s not part of the figures you are taking about

    46. hairy ballsack says:

      Does this mean I can have 2 passports? 1 for when I feel like being a man and another for the days when I feel like another gender?

    47. Schrodingers cat says:

      I have brought up small children. So liz. I do how much hassle it can be. I’m not sure why you think this point is relevant. If we limit trans to mens toilets. What about my 10 year old son?

      Young women do get assaulted in public places But so do young men

      StI’ll not sure why this is relevant or why this is such a big deal. We are still talking about a very small number of people

    48. S.Perspective says:

      What really irks me is the rampant calendarism that our society tolerates. It‘s all fine and dandy to identify as a woman/man whatever on a Wednesday, but what of us don‘t identify with the Wednesday? I feel we should have the full freedom to choose the weekday, and indeed month or year that befits our self-being at any point in time.

    49. Kate Graham says:

      Thanks for this article.
      Lifelong lesbians who have consistently supported gay rights and fought for womens rights, are now being castigated as ‘Nazi’s by millenials who seem incapable of reasoned debate.

      I see the trans thing as akin to a religious belief.
      Woman is the word we have for adult human female, and it is unrealistic to think that that you can force over three quarters of the population to go along with the blatent nonsense that a father of four kids or a boxing promoter can somehow be a woman if he puts on a bit of makeup and a frock.

      He should be free to work and live without hassle. But not to insist that anyone else has to play out his fantasy.

      The fact that women have been expelled from the Labour party for pointing that out, speaks volumes about the mess they are in.

      I seriously hope that the SNP are able to arrive at a more grounded and realistic way forward.

      That will come from a material reality, not the imagined fantasies of some blokes who are not comfortable with being macho.

      Laws and legalities cannot be based on mens inner feelings, and cannot include “self ID”, obviously.

    50. ClanDonald says:

      I’m all for self-ID, as long as there are safeguards to prevent stalkers, male-predators and men who get sexually aroused by dressing up as women but have no intention of changing sex from pretending to self-ID as women in order to access safe spaces like changing rooms, showers, wards, guide camps and female prisons.

      Problem is, how can you have self-ID without having safeguards in place?

      Imagine your teenage daughter asking to have an intimate examination carried out by a female nurse only to discover that they’re being examined by a man with a beard and a penis, pretending to be a woman in order to get near naked young girls and if you complain about it you’re guilty of a transphobic hate crime? What safeguards will there be to stop this happening?

      And anyone who tells you that predatory men wouldn’t dream of exploiting self-ID laws are as foolish/dishonest as someone who’d tell you paedophiles wouldn’t dream of taking jobs that give them access to children.

    51. Liz g says:

      Artyhetty @ 1.08
      Your story also reminds me of a conversation year’s ago with friends of my husband.
      They, who were decent men,hated when the found themselves walking behind a lone female,at night and they knew that was scaring her.
      They did know wither to speed up and pass,slow down,change direction,or ignore it.
      But they were unanimously agreed they shouldn’t try to speak.
      I was quite surprised by how often they felt that way.
      The point being that if this “toilet” thing plays out as most other business decisions do.
      we could finish up with only one toilet for everyone and I think the men will hate that too!

    52. Schrodingers cat says:

      see Shrodingers Cat,if you put a group of women together you will find that the “as long as their not hurtling me” defence wont fly.
      Women have to be mindful of the situations they are in every day all the time,and the woman without a story to tell is usually the expectation not the rule.


      So gays. Who. As long as they aren’t harming anyone. In groups of women this won’t fly????

      I’m not even sure if this means anything

      As a young man. I was assaulted many times. Nose broken 3 times etc. Taking care about where you go is not limited to women. Eg. I’m in marseille at the moment and like all big cities there are no go areas. The difference here is that in Glasgow you would need to make a concerted effort to get to eg. Drumchapel. Here in marseille. Turn left or right off the main drag and walk 5 mins and you can find yourself in a world of grief. I just finished telling this to the younger guys on my group who intend going out tonight.

      Who gets the worst deal. Difficult to say but me. Personally. I’d rather get fucked than killed any day

    53. Bob Mack says:

      I knew of women who killed themselves because they were “fucked” as you call it, rather than killed. Male view of rape eh ?

    54. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 2.23
      Gays or anyone else are no likely to convince a group of women,to agree to let men into their space on the basis that their no hurting me.
      Because as ye said yerself , your friends could get hurt by straying into the “wrong part of town” where as Women on the other hand will be groped tonight on the main drag.
      Mibbi they would need to go farther into town to be raped or battered but still ?

    55. Dr Jim says:

      Statement from the Labour party: Shadow minister for gender issues and anything we don’t know what to do with… Big Jack Evelyn Nowun

      The Labour party position is For the many not the few, except when the few become quite a lot and there might be votes in it, or if we don’t know we’ll abstain on the matter even if we’re the ones who raised it to get the many votes which might turn out to be a pointless exercise because there might be only a few after all…..maybe

      We’ll set up a commission involving the Liberal democrats which will take 200 years to submit its findings and by then no one will care because they’ll all be dead anyway

      That is our commitment to voters

    56. Famous15 says:

      I once visited Salem,Mass. Deja vu all over again.

      Happy that me and mine do not have identification issues. The pain is palpable.

      I support the view the Cat takes.

    57. Schrodingers cat says:

      If the problem is folk are worried about 25 stone builders dressing up like Shirley bassey and sneaking into women’s toilets to ogle at women. Then setting up a commission to look at the issue over a 1o year period. Sounds like a very sensible thing to do

    58. Bob Mack says:

      @Schrodingers Cat,

      Your last sentence is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read on this blog. A major consequence of rape is suicide. Death in any event. Women all over the world live in fear of violation because the effects of transmitted disease among many other factors like pregnancy ,termination and multiple other effects are so great.

      It is a real fear. 90% of girls in Peru under the age of 15 do so as a result of incestuous rape. No joking matter bud.

      Women have real fears for very real reasons. It can be life or death for them.

    59. Proud Cybernat says:

      Your YES vote is the knife…

    60. Ken500 says:

      BBC liars. What a load of nonsense.

      In the rest of the UK. Pupils do 3/4 A levels. In Scotland they do 5 or 6 Highers. There is far more choice. The Tories have cut Education spending. In Scotland there are no fees. Students get student loans. Not means tested which prevented students going to University. There are grants for students of households of under £21,000. Scotland has the most Uni in the world pro rata per population. One of the highest education populations in the world. There is not enough additional needs training unless teachers specialise. Some schools do really well but not all. Scotland was the first countries in the world to support tertiary education. There is still a great commitment in Scotland for education,

      Unionists councils are not spending money allocated to keep class sizes down. They use the statutory limit as the norm (30 pupils). Then try and cut funding for education/essential services. Spending £Millions building not needed shops & hotels. They should be building affordable houses and funding essential services.

      The unionists changed the electoral system in Scotland. 1st preference SNP votes go in the bin. 3rd rate unionists get in. The 3rd rate unionist gang up to try and keep the SNP with the most candidates from power.

      Murdo Fraser is a liar. Westminster have taken £Billions from Scotland.

      How thick is Brewer? What a dunce.

    61. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 2.23
      My answer didn’t appear… With hindsight I used the “r” word,so that’s mibbi why?
      We seem to agree that most people should be aware of their surroundings!
      But the difference is that your friend would need to leave the “main dragg” to be likely to encounter any problems,while a female (I can guarantee) will be touched against her will on the main dragg tonight.
      Yes she too may need to wander into the bad part of town to be seriously assulted but still..
      Which is why I said the “no harming me” wouldn’t fly.. No matter who is doing the persuading!
      There is no actual “no harming me”,therefore a group or woman are no likely to agree to men of any description in their toilets,and they are speaking from experience.
      That room full of 60 odd woman was real,just no in a pub,but a playleader training event.
      And none of their recollections involved serious violence or assault and none of it was reported to the police!

    62. cearc says:

      totally O/T,

      As an occassional voyeur of various twitter feeds (not on twitter myself), I was surprised not to have seen this on Stu’s.

      The great god of the bears!

      Perhaps someone, who does such stuff, would like to retweet it him?

    63. Ken500 says:

      There are swimming pools with mixed changing rooms. There are no reported increased attacks. Or reports of women being attacked in toilets.

      The majority of women are attacked in their own homes by people known to them.

      Attackers are mainly men. They attack other men. 571 murders a year in U.K. 14% men 6% women. Increased in London – knife murders. Crime has decreased in Scotland.

    64. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Union Jackie Kim Ono:</i?

    65. Liz g says:

      Ken 500 @ 3.18
      Swimming pool changing areas have attendants
      Local cafes not so much

    66. Schrodingers cat says:

      When they decriminalised gays. The arguments from men were the same.

      That women get molested is a fact. Allowing trans to use womens toilets wonto change that but neither will it increase attacks on women in women’s toilets due to the vanishingly small number of trans people.

      Your main argument seems to be. We just don’t like the idea. Tough. Feminists have campaigned all men only societies out of existence but when the shoe is on the other foot they start rolling g out the same tired arguments that the old men used when they decriminalised homosexuality.

      Trans people are not bogymen who will leap on you in women’s toilets anymore than gays leap onot men in mens toilets. You said it yourself. It is straight men who are your biggest problem in society

    67. jfngw says:


      This bit of BBC pro Tory spin from the lunchtime news (also heard it on radio news) takes the biscuit. Apparently if you ignore the inflation on items that have gone up more than the average then inflation is only 2.2%, and almost the government target.

      Is that like if we ignore all the games Scotland lost in the World Cup qualifiers we would have qualified.

    68. Liz g says:

      Ken 500 @ 3.18
      There are plenty of reports of incidents on crowde trains though!
      Enough incidents of up skirting to make a law…

      Also you, Shrodingers cat and any other reader…
      You needn’t take my word for it.
      You all, no matter your orientation, have women in your life’s…ask them.
      And if they are sure of your reaction they will tell you.
      They know fine the difference between clumsy advances and the creepy stuff.

      I not saying anything other than why woman are resistant to this.
      It’s no anti anything it’s experience based.

    69. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 3.39
      Naw the problem seems to be the men’s toilets,whatever the problem is with them don’t visit it on the woman’s!

    70. Big Jock says:

      It’s not the best month to have the indy ref, but I now think March 19 is on the cards. Summer/Autumn Indy campaign. Then down to referendum business after Christmas. Salmond always believed it would be September 18 though!

    71. Sarah says:

      O/T Clara Ponsati’s fundraiser target has stretched to £400,000. With 3 days to go it has still only raised £249,326 – it has been around that figure for a week or more.

      I’m worried for her so will send a second small donation. Showing solidarity is all we can do.

    72. Robert Roddick says:

      Labour Self ID Male/Female/Abstain !

    73. Schrodingers cat says:

      I don’t doubt that women suffer from unwanted advances from men in all parts of society.

      I’m just pointing out that this has nothing to do with the issue of allowing the 7 trans men who currently live in Aberdeen to use a cubicle in women’s toilets there

    74. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 3.39
      My problem is no wi trans people
      I thought I had been clear about that
      The problem is….. Why are they being made so uncomfortable in the men’s….
      That’s the bit that’s no being looked at.
      As for no liking it….. tough is your answer….really?
      Ok …. why is it tough for me but a Toilet change is the answer to Trans people who don’t like the men’s?
      Even when I have taken the time to explain that the issues are about more than just feelings.

    75. Schrodingers cat says:

      In truth. It is these trans people who are more likely to be assaulted in women’s toilets if today’s comments areg anything to go by.

      Folk need to get over themselves. Live and let live

    76. Schrodingers cat says:

      I have no problem with trans using mens toilets if that’s what they want. I couldn’t care less.

    77. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 3.57
      Yes they do
      But no normally in the ladies loo.
      It’s perceived as a relatively safe space.
      And as I said finding a man in there generally means leave.
      How are we supposed to tell now?
      As I said work on the real issues and change the men’s toilet to gender neutral.

    78. Schrodingers cat says:

      Maybe they don’t like mens toilets cos they believe and dressuch like women. Also. Men’s toilets are usually honking ?

      But women who change into men are happy to use mens toilets.

      As I said. I couldn’t care. It isn’t an issue for me.

    79. Andy-B says:

      He’s a woman on a Wednesday, a squirrel on a Thursday, and a Shetland pony on a Friday, and the rest of the week he’s just plain old Dave.

      You gotta love Labour, erm…no.

    80. Schrodingers cat says:

      Schrodingers cat @3.57
      I dont doubt that women suffer from unwanted advances from men in all parts of society.

      I’m just pointing out that this has nothing to do with the issue of allowing the 7 trans men who currently live in Aberdeen to use a cubicle in women’s toilets there


      Liz g says:
      23 May, 2018 at 4:07 pm
      Shrodingers Cat @ 3.57
      Yes they do
      But no normally in the ladies loo.
      It’s perceived as a relatively safe space.
      And as I said finding a man in there generally means leave.
      How are we supposed to tell now?
      As I said work on the real issues and change the men’s toilet to gender neutral.


      I’m not sure what your answer actually means? The words are in order but I’m not sure they refer in anyway to my post. But men can dress as women and use womens toilets now. Indeed this probably happens already. And vice versa. As I said. Allowing the few trans folk to use womens toilets will not make them a less safe places. Except of course for the trans folk who are still far more likely to be assaulted than anyone else. Even in women’s loos

    81. Gfaetheblock says:

      Ali @ 11.27

      Couldn’t have put it better myself, nothing more needs said.

    82. Chick McGregor says:

      To me there are only two types of human being.

      Type I. Those, who may make mistakes, but at least try to do the right thing.

      Type II. Those who consider type I’s to be naive idiots.

    83. Schrodingers cat says:


      There are only 10 types of people in the world

      Those who understand binary and……um……..

    84. orri says:

      Perhaps part of the problem is that it’s not clear what “self-identify” means in this context. Also how do you legally register that self-identification.

      From the perspective of “safe” places whilst it’s obvious that yes a convincing transvestite might pass for a woman and pose a danger a change in the law might make it far easier for that kind of intrusion. Whereas before trespass or some other law might be used to deter if a badly worded right to self declare is introduced there’d be nothing to deter “men” invading “women’s” places other than the penalties for actually committing a crime.

      I’m singularly unconvinced by arguments about existing dangers and choosing being raped over being killed. I’d pick neither and try to arrange things to make that by far the most likely event.

      Regardless of which. I still find it strange that OK the woman’s officer has to be a woman but as far as I can tell it isn’t just women that get to vote. If women are the minority in a party then that means that regardless of whether they unanimously reject a candidate, regardless of “gender”, they can still have thon imposed on them by the men.

    85. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 4.30
      Ok I’ll use shorter sentences.

      Let’s try it from a different angle
      Pretend ( kidding on) that you’re in Glasgow for the day.
      Also that you have a 14 year old daughter.
      Nature called ( that’s polite for she needs a pish)
      Is your advice still
      Live and let live
      Daddy doesn’t have a problem with it.
      Daddy knows some genuine (real) Trans people from Aberdeen toilets,and based on (because of) that you (fake daughter) don’t need to make any judgement call (risk assessment) if there’s a man in there!

      Because if its not (what you would say)
      Please enlighten (tell) me?
      What you would tell her (fake daughter)?

    86. jfngw says:

      This is not the same as the legalising Gay and Lesbian relationships, that had no restrictions on the rest of the population, it was merely discrimination. This does have a very physical effect on others in the population, who’s sensitivities take priority.

      Not everyone is going to accept this, and by the polling it looks like a sizeable number of the public will not be convinced.

    87. Schrodingers cat says:


      The fukc ed or killed comment was a light hearted attempt. But yes. Legislation which allows genuine trans to self define without allowing men to abuse this eg. Like the guy claiming to be a women on weds etc. Should be possible. Scots law is based on principle not president.
      I think the bigger problem isn’t the legislation but educating people to lose their irrational fears

      Liz. If I was in town with my 14 year oldeal daughter and she needed a pish. I’d tell her to go have one

    88. call me dave says:

      Good news. O/T for the thread.

      The Scottish Government has confirmed today that it supports extending the right to vote to refugees & asylum seekers. EU citizens’ voting rights will be protected, & non-EU citizens resident here will gain the right to vote.

    89. Graeme says:

      There are 2 genders male & female and nature decides which one you are, you don’t have to like it but you have to live with it

    90. Schrodingers cat says:

      I think it is exactly the same as repealing the anti homosexuality laws

      It meant that openly gays men could openly use mens toilets and at the time exactly the same arguments were used

      Even after the law changed. It still took many years for people to accept gays etc and it only now where politicians etc feel comfortable coming out.

      Trans people are a very small minority but in a few years people will also come to accept them and future generations will wonder what the fuss was about

    91. Proud Cybernat says:

      Less patronising lady…

    92. Schrodingers cat says:

      Nature decides whether you are male or female.

      But whether you are free to live in this society as a male or female is a question of law. Not genetics

    93. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 5.14
      I’m struggling tae believe that.
      You wouldn’t let that young man wander into a bad part of town tonight!
      And despite the humour…
      Its a genuine question.
      We give a protocol for taxis,the route home,things like that.
      How do we advise on this especially to smaller children?

    94. Dr Jim says:

      No support for Independence says Brewer of the BBC, The polls don’t show any increase says a wummin from Holyrood magazine
      We’re all being kidded on to keep us happy says Brewer of The BBC, What’s the point of calling a referendum if you know you’re going to lose says the wummin from Holyrood magazine

      Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want a referendum says both Brewer of The BBC and the wummin from Holyrood magazine

      I wonder how many people need to march before the BBC says something more accurate than *well attended* or *quite a lot* or maybe they might admit that the growth commission which was tasked with renewing all the information and data needed to inform the next campaign is actually real and is on the brink of an announcement

      But the BBC still will be saying Naw! it’s no real!

    95. Schrodingers cat says:

      Call me dave
      Very good news.
      Let’s hope they can make this stick for indyref2

    96. handclapping says:

      That a woman should want to be a man is sad and an indictment of our failure to achieve gender equality. However as it is only minimally a threat to males he should be allowed to boast male gender even while anatomically female

      While it is perceived to be a threat by women, then if it still has a penis its not a woman whatever its dress or hormone levels. When the penis is gone she is entitled to be treated as a woman if she wants.

      But what would I know, I’m a crumbly

    97. Schrodingers cat says:

      I don’t know any trans folk but I have met one in the passing

      He was in his late 50s when he had the op. So think less leather clad tits like cannonballs more wee fat baldy manny in a wig and big flowery dresses.

      He used to go to the wife’s knitting circle where I think the other women viewed him as a curiosity. Certainly not a threat.

      I spoke to him once. He seemed amiable enough if not a bit odd.

      The way you characterise trans folk make it look if you think they are about to eat your children

      They won’t. Your fears are irrational and neurotic. Get over it

    98. Liam says:

      Eppy says:
      23 May, 2018 at 11:59 am

      I have to say that I am with Ali (11.27) on this one.

      Yep. Me too.

    99. Dr Jim says:

      My 15 year old grand daughter was giggly and red faced over what she considered a sexy waiter in a restaurant a couple of months ago, last week she decided she was a lesbian, so I’m completely clued in on the whole thing….Not!

      Glad I’m ancient!

    100. twathater says:

      Liz g you have my support , as a parent of a daughter I am and would be very concerned

    101. Golfnut says:

      Political correctness isn’t a good reason for women and young girls to be put in a situation where they are made to feel intimidated, alarmed, nervous, uncomfortable, embarrassed or put at risk.

    102. Ken500 says:

      It’s not gay and transgender people attacking women. They are being attacked. Many do not come out for various reasons. Religious, family or employment. It is men who are attacking people, including other men.

    103. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 5.52
      Why do you insist that I am talking about Trans folk,when you, if you had read my posts would know fine well I’m not.
      For the last time I am talking about this issue being used as back door for actual perverts
      It is ok to say you don’t know what to advise vulnerable women and kids, around this.
      I don’t either!
      But it’s really no very clever to misrepresent for the fourth time now what I’m saying to avoid answering.
      It’s getting boring either move the conversation on or leave it here (shit or get off the pot)

    104. Schrodingers cat says:

      Golf nut

      Couldn’t the same effect said for lesbian. Or young men feeling threatened by gays men in mens toilets?

      Purely on a numbers game. Young women are far more likely to be sexual assaulted in a women’s toilets than by a trans.

      It isn’t political correctness that is respossible for this situation. It is the changes in people’s views in our society

    105. Morag says:

      It is not just public toilets & changing rooms that are the issue in regards to kids, but what about camps etc.
      Self ID could mean my niece having to share a room/tent with someone identifying as a female but who is biologically male and her parents don’t have to be notified/consulted. Why are her rights to feel safe and comfortable less important.
      We have been fighting a long time for women’s rights and they are going to be thrown away for future generations.

    106. Chick McGregor says:

      “There are only 10 types of people in the world

      Those who understand binary and……um……..”

      Now see, I’m a type I, I could have put a hex on you there.

    107. Golfnut says:

      @ Schrodingers cat.

      Right now, we have a very small group of people who are leading the charge on this issue. Gobby, insulting, malicious to any disagreeing and from what I have seen downright threatening. People are right to be wary and uncomfortable if not alarmed at this being discussed by parliamentarians.

      Perhaps the public need to be better educated, better informed, but frankly from what I have seen, no way would I as a parent be happy with this going forward.

    108. Schrodingers cat says:

      If you look back at my posts you can see that my position is that legislation which allows genuine trans to use womens toilets is possible. While at the same time not allowing it to be abused by genuine email perverts
      The case in point. The guy mentioned above in Stus article. Claiming to be a women on weds. While not a pervert. It doespecially highlight the need for some legislation.
      Bear in mind. Legislation or not. Genuine perverts are probably abusing the pozition at the moment
      The risks already exist.with or without new legislation.
      If the new legislation is properly worded. It won’t increase the risks.
      But neither will it decrease them

    109. Schrodingers cat says:

      Golf nut
      But the lgbt folk who campaigned for equal rights were a pretty gobey bunch too. As were the feminists I might add.

      Perhaps this just proves that standing by and applauding politely isn’t how to go about getting the changes you want

    110. Nana says:


      for anyone who might be interested

      Tonight on Channel 4 10pm

      A three part documentary called “Carry on Brussels” by Channel 4 will follow a group of MEPs around as they ‘buckle up for the ride of their lives on the Brexit roller coaster’.

    111. HandandShrimp says:

      Perhaps this just proves that standing by and applauding politely isn’t how to go about getting the changes you want

      Probably a fair bit of truth in that. Activism, even fairly confrontational activism upsets people but once some leeway is given and the issues notches down a peg or two the boundaries have moved and people are glad that the noisy people have mostly STFU. However, movement has largely been achieved by a combination of activists complaining and moderates that people can turn to. One without the other would likely not work.

    112. Schrodingers cat says:

      I wouldn’t bother putting a hex on me
      I have it on good authority. To 16 decimal places no less. That I’m definitely going to go to hell

      Mainly for being an argumentative sod. Even on issues where I have no dog in the fight

    113. Schrodingers cat says:

      That will be me then?

    114. Gary says:

      I gather that the above pictured gent registered thusly as some kind of a ‘gag’

      Of course, being politically active he STILL seemed blissfully unaware what an idiot everyone would think him and just how much pleasure sites like ‘Guido’ would take in reporting on it.

      Seems to be a new breed of activist in Labour, they know what they think (but not why) and they have almost the same sensibilities as UKIP in re sensitivity on gender and related matters.

      In other words – idiots…

    115. William Wallace says:

      I find this whole issue of self identifying and demanding rights to use the ladies etc a bit confusing. I’m probably a bit old fashioned in my outlook, but I am also a live and let live sort of guy too.

      As far as I am concerned (and this may not be entirely PC) if you still have a boaby then you are still a man biologically speaking and should be using facilities for men. If you are a man who has undergone surgery and no longer have a boaby, then it is probably right that you use the ladies (especially given that you’ll have to sit down for a pish ;)).

      Simplistic maybe but, that’s my take on it.

    116. Schrodingers cat says:

      I’m also thinking that someone with a moniker like twathater should probably avoid posting on this particular thread ?

    117. P G says:

      Agree with William Wallace and have been agreeing with LizG all day

    118. HandandShrimp says:

      That will be me then?

      If the bodice fits wear it 🙂

    119. Mark Russell says:

      As Sam says, it’s not what you are, more what you make of yourself that really matters. Never had any issues with sexuality, gender or identity, but my only minor concern is in sport, where being a M2F trans could have a measurable and significant advantage. The Chinese women are already formidable in world badminton, but if Lin Dan were to transition for the twilight years, then that really widnae be fair!

      We could always add another category I guess. That would be cool. Just like life – it’s only a game.

    120. Schrodingers cat says:

      Lol at William wallace

      A very difficult subject handled with great tact aplomb and sensitivity

      Btw my eyes are not just watering. They are in fact bleeding

    121. Ken500 says:

      Luke Graham another attention seeker plant. In the IndyRef the Tories/Cameron put pressure on numerous businesses and other leaders to come out against Independence. Shocking, hypocritical double standards. Most of these businesses etc are now losing profits and business because of Brexit and austerity.

      Markies have stopped putting UJ on all their produce, especially the Scottish ones. Defra is supposed to consult with the Scottish Gov about how produce should be labelled. Scottish branded goods carry a premium for quality worldwide and should be protected. Not listed or confused with other products.

    122. Liz g says:

      Twathater @ 5.58
      Thank you for saying.
      I am really at a loss to workout exactly how to give age appropriate rules for this.
      Woman’s concerns are real and experienced based,of that I have no doubt.
      And while the Trans community themselves wouldn’t pose a threat, they are the one’s instigating the change.
      Therefore it is incumbent on them to offer the solutions.
      We and they must know that the terminally creepy and the serious perverts infect everything they can.
      Shopping areas,
      Night club’s,
      The list is endless,and we have needed to take action on all of the above.
      Live and let live is not good enough.
      If they want to change attitudes,fine,but offer the route,frame the solutions… Show us how this would work.
      It is in their interests as well,one, just one, pervert hitching their wagon to the Trans community,could damage their movement badly.
      As for legislation,I’m not convinced.
      Again I am from the generation who would likely challenge a man,as to what he was doing in the woman’s toilets,or report him to staff.
      Now that might be wrong,was it always wrong?
      Am I to be criminalized for something like this?
      I think the social change has to come first!

    123. uno mas says:

      @Schrodingers cat

      Man of the Match to day mate.

      You´re playing a blinder!!

    124. Mark Russell says:

      @ William Wallace

      There are some US doctors exploring the possibility of transplant surgery so that fully transitioned M>F patients can carry and give birth to a baby, but it is extremely complex, not to say controversial and without risk – for mother and child.

      But really, why would you want to? I guess many women find the experience extremely moving and fulfilling – but bejings – I could never conceive (sorry) it to be a pleasurable one! I suppose if I wasn’t a grizzly old man and had a predominantly female side to my personality, then I wouldn’t have a problem exploring it, especially in today’s environment. But there are limits – and babies are well on the other side of the line.

    125. Andy-B says:


      I was in Tesco’s, the other day picked up a packet of cornbeef, which had a huge Union Jack on it,looked on back and to my surprise it was produced in Ireland.

      I didn’t buy the thing, but it made me wonder if Ireland also suffers from the great Union Jackery misrepresentation.

    126. Illy says:

      So Stu, you want this:

      And this:

      Yes, that’s a trans man in the first pic, and a trans woman in the second pic. (To clear up the obvious misnaming that’s been going on – a trans man identifies as male, a trans woman identifies as female)

    127. Highland Wifie says:

      Definitely with Lizg and Kirsty on this one. Those who say they don’t really understand the issues really need to get reading about this.
      In the first place women who are trying to express their concerns about this and discuss it in a calm democratic way are being shut down by aggressive and violent trans activists. Strangely, only by trans women, that is men. Venues booked to discuss the issue are being targeted by intimidating groups of trans men and in some cases forcing the venue to cancel.

      New regulations put in place by the Girl Guide movement now state that trans girls (boys) will be accepted and will be included in sleeping quarters and showers. As a parent you will have no right to know whether there will be a trans girl at your daughter’s camp.

      Women fleeing domestic violence, who are already in a vulnerable state of mind will be forced to accept fully equipped males in the refuge.

      Many men who will want to self id as women will fall into the category of a condition known as autogynephilia. (Look it up). It’s basically a fetish.

      I have the greatest respect for people who genuinely feel they are the wrong sex. In my local small village a man who now lives as a woman gave a talk in public which I thought was the most courageous thing to do. It’s not about intolerance of trans people. It’s about the very real concerns women have about losing their hard fought rights to safety and privacy for the intimate stuff that young girls in particular have huge embarrassment with.

      Can we at least have a sensible discussion about the issues without being labelled a terf or worse. (As someone has already done up thread)
      Because the determination to have women’s voices shut down just looks like good old fashioned misogyny to me.
      I am an older women. I have lived through the sexism and the casual misogyny. I no longer feel the need to agree with something that is obviously so wrong just because it’s considered ‘right on’.
      If this legislation goes through without amendment it won’t only be the Labour Party that experiences a backlash.

    128. ronnie anderson says:

      Shrodringers cat 6.46 Oor resident vet ( Morag ) will be glad U have no dog in any fight lol

    129. BJ says:

      My staunch Tory supporting relative who was a no voter in 2014 says if the EU would guarantee Scotland could become a member in its own right then she would definitely vote for Independence in the next ref.

      Goes to show there are no voters who can be persuaded.

    130. Highland Wifie says:

      Meant trans women in first paragraph – it gets confusing!

    131. Nana says:

      This is a long read

      Sir Ivan Rogers delivered a lecture on ‘The real post-Brexit options’ at the University of Glasgow on 23 May 2018. He joins Lord Kerr, David McAllister MEP, Michael Russell MSP and David Martin MEP in taking part in the Policy Scotland Brexit series of lectures. In October 2017 Sir Ivan delivered a lecture on ‘The History and Origins of Brexit’.

    132. Schrodingers cat says:

      True Ronnie
      But I’m not adverse to getting into the occasional cat fight

    133. Golfnut says:

      @Schrodingers Cat.

      True, but they weren’t campaigning to share bathrooms, accommodation and fitting rooms as a right with the opposite sex. If what is proposed, already in place, impacts on other people to their detriment, its a NO.

    134. craig traver says:

      Sorry Off Topic

      Can someone give me the link that you use to archive a newspaper link so that folks can read the article without clicking the website.

      Thank you for your assistance

    135. Rock says:

      ” it looks as though a microscopic number of people might be about to effectively determine the UK’s entire future.”

      But it won’t soon be necessary for the people of Scotland to worry about the UK’s entire future, right?

      What with Nicola calling an independence referendum before Brexit is completed, and Scots voting Yes to independence and remaining in the EU.

    136. Schrodingers cat says:

      But they don’t share toilets

      You go into a cubicle. Lock the door. Have a pee. Flush the toilet. Then you go out and wash your hands.

      Many night clubs. Changing rooms in shops and swimming pools have communal facilities exactly like this. The showers are also cubical.

      My daughter was in the scouts. Her troupe went camping and the boys and girls shared the toilet facilities. This did not mean they showered together and went for a dump together in the same cubical.

      The girl guide thing looks like a publicity stunt since they had failed to identify any trans 10 to 14 year old boy who wanted to go camping with the guides.

      But trans apart. If boys want to join guide troup why shouldn’t they

      If the scouts have to allow girls to join why not the guides?

    137. Rock says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      23 May, 2018 at 11:15 am

      “The fact of the matter is that nobody can ever really change their sex”

      I totally agree with that.

      I believe in equal rights and opportunities for everyone, based on their own skills and abilities, without discrimination of any type.

      There should be no laws to allow a man to pretend to be a woman, or the other way round, for personal benefit.

      I am also totally opposed to women only or black only shortlists for candidates.

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      The world of international development views gender equality as pivotal to achieving inclusive, sustainable development. Surely it is simply common sense then, to insist that empowering trans individuals must not be allowed to undermine the human rights and ongoing social empowerment of biological women.

      How men and women see gender equality differently

      Transgender social inclusion and equality: a pivotal path to development

      Women’s Empowerment: What Works?

    139. Abulhaq says:

      Political parties that buy into this gender identity nonsense deserve all the ridicule one can muster.
      As do the psychiatrists who have given spurious legitimacy to this set of exhibitionists.

    140. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some folk might want to ignore this issue but it is simply too large to sweep under the carpet.

      Law’s Vulnerability, and Vulnerability in Law


      Vulnerability acts as a touchstone in this issue as we find our contributors reflecting on its intersection with gender and sexuality in different ways. Saeidzadeh draws out the significance of misrecognition in her consideration of responses to transsexuality in Iran, while Doonan highlights the potential pitfalls of relying on situational vulnerability in her critique of anti-trafficking legal discourse in the US. Lindsey considers the legal potential of situational vulnerability as a tool to address the ‘persistent failure to take action against abuse’ in the UK. Durojaye and Oluduro contribute to the recent revitalisation in asking ‘the woman question’ by drawing on African law and literature to flesh out the development of a gender-sensitive, substantive equality approach from the jurisprudence of the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights as it addresses vulnerability to violence. The reviewers continue this international conversation as they address recent contributions on sexuality, family formation and social security….

      Feminism, Critical Social Theory and Law

      Gendered Inequality: Lesbians, Gays, and Feminist Legal Theory

    141. Morgatron says:

      Cant forget about The Gender Counfused Train. It was the Trans Europe Express .

    142. Highland Wifie says:

      Nice to see you back Cameron B.
      Thanks for excellent links. Totally agree with your sentiments. A way forward has to be found.

    143. Golfnut says:

      @ Schrodingers cat

      Nigh on 60 yrs ago boys and girls shared classrooms, just like today, we even went to the school swimming baths together, we swam together, but there were rules, and the rules were in place for good reason. But we aren’t talking about kids, we are talking about adult men being allowed into what should be, for good reason, private area’s for women and children. There is no good reason, other than political posturing and pandering to a vociferous and from what I have seen, nasty element within a very small % of the population.

    144. Bob Mack says:

      As a general question, why should a trans man with a penis want to use the women’s toilet anyway? To feel safe? To avoid other males looking at him?

      Biologically he would be better using a male urinal.

      Is it to prove something? Is it to give credibility to his claim of being a woman?

      Lot more to this guys

    145. paul gerard mccormack says:

      I’m afraid to say that there are maybe 2/3 sexes. And 63 genders.

      But since we are talking about .00000….. of the population for whom it is an issue then its not really an issue and we’ll all just have to get by as usual.

      Heres a link that explains the numbers should you be interested in finding out more (the trick is to remember to keep breathing):

      personally i like william wallace’s take on this 🙂

    146. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson/Smallaxe & abody else who may know –

      Serious question – if, say, 10,000 of us turn up in Dumfries Saturday after next, can the town handle such an influx?

      Are any Wingers based in Dumfies? If so, can you tell us if folk are anticipating the gathering? Are they looking forward to it? Apprehensive? Local entrepreneurs ready? Pubs & hotels made sure of extra supplies?

      Sorry aabout all the questions, but it just feels like a really important day coming up – no-one raises much of an eyebrow to hear that there’s been a huge march in Edinburgh or Glasgow, and the numbers can be argued about until people become bored.

      But if a seriously large number appear in a *relatively* small town, it’ll be difficult to downplay the magnitude of it.

      Who knows? – ‘Were you at AUOB Dumfries?’ could, in time, become one of the questions asked by grand-weans who take independence for granted as the natural and proper state of affairs.


    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks Highland Wifie. I’m still very rusty but I see reflections of the past tensions in all of this.

      Intersectional Discrimination and Substantive Equality: A Comparative and Theoretical Perspective


      “[O]ur struggle for liberation has significance only if it takes place within a feminist movement that has as its fundamental goal the liberation of all people.”2

      Intersectionality has been described as “the most important theoretical contribution that women’s studies (…) has made so far”,3 and is, in brief, an approach to identity that recognises that different identity categories can intersect and co-exist in the same individual in a way which creates a qualitatively different experience when compared to any of the individual characteristics involved. Intersectionality shows us how:

      Gender reaches into disability; disability wraps around class; class strains against abuse; abuse snarls into sexual orientation; sexual orientation folds on top of race (…) everything finally piling into a single human body.4

      Kimberlé Crenshaw, who originated the term, focused her attention on the position of black women in US society. She noted that black women were failed by anti-racist campaigns that focused on the experiences and needs of black men, and feminist campaigns led by and focused on the experiences of white women. As a result, discrimination law using a “single-axis” model of identity failed black women, as their experiences of oppression were rendered invisible by the dominant narrative within the categories “woman” and “black”.5

      Much of the academic discussion continues this focus on the intersection of race and gender, but the potential of intersectionality allows it to go further, showing how all identities interact to create complex identities. Writers have highlighted the intersections of disability with race6 or the intersectional experiences within the category sexual orientation,7 and it is this generality
      which is intersectionality’s greatest strength as a tool for reforming discrimination law….

    148. helena handcart says:

      My ex was a diagnosed autogynephilic transwoman.. in other words, an ordinary bloke until ‘coming out’ in his 50’s, claiming he’d known since he was 4 years old he was really a girl. Autogynephiles are heterosexual men who identify as ‘lesbians’. As well as dressing up, they tend to enjoy things like ‘forced sissy’, ‘lesbian’ and anime porn. A lot.
      My ex shared common and identifiable sexual paraphilias with other Agp trans, including voyeurism, exhibitionism and, like jenner, ‘borrowing’ girls and womens underwear, which he indulged in throughout his adult life.
      He got off on being ‘one of the girls’ and doing ‘girly things with the girls’ and actively pursued the company of women and womens groups/spaces to act out his sexual fantasies, plenty of whom indulged him in the name of inclusion as unwitting participants.
      The nature of the crimes and violations he committed meant that his victims were almost never aware they’d been targeted and even if they were aware, how could they possibly prove it in court? Voyeurism doesnt necessarily involve the taking of images, it can be just collecting thrills for the w**k-bank. He quickly shut down the online accounts i challenged him about and i had no evidence of the much more serious crimes he committed when he was younger with the help of enablers. Consequently he was never prosecuted.
      Hormones and surgery make no difference. A penis is not necessary to commit these types of violations of womens boundaries and privacy.
      I dont think people realise that he wasnt a one-off.. autogynephiles make up the majority of trans-identified adult males and the diagnosis does not disqualify them from pursuing medical transition on the NHS. Agp is not a contraindication to treatment as they can suffer severe gender dysphoria and other psychiatric co-morbidities. Some research suggests a strong association with borderline personality disorder and pathological narcissism. So the ‘no true scotsman’ argument is redundant, as like jenner and maloney to all intents and purposes he was a ‘genuine’ transwoman.
      Share a changing room with my teenage daughters? Over my dead body.

    149. Clootie says:

      @paul Gerard McCormack

      …63 genders eh! Not 64 or 65 ? 63 smack on the nose…really!
      I think it is 108 or 109 on a Wednesday.

    150. Illy says:

      Also, I see a disturbingly high number of people here think that what’s between your legs is more important than what’s between your ears.

      I’ll just draw a comparison to “Anyone who works, lives and contributes to Scotland is Scottish, anyone who was born in England is English.”

      Not sure how many of you are smart enough to grok that, though.

    151. Liz g says:

      Bob Mack @ 9.51
      I think (but happy to be corrected) it’s because they are dressed in clothes that are clearly for women .
      Clearly they are then probably safer in the ladies
      But once legal cover is in place, the dress code is oot the winday.

    152. Illy says:

      And that’s not to mention people who are born intersex. That’s folks who are born with “indeterminate” genitalia.

      Plenty of medical documentation on those, and their mere *existence* shits all over anyone who says “if you have a dick you’re a man, vagina, woman”, because then what are they, who are born naturally with bits of both?

      Or there’s XX folks with penises:

      Want me to keep going?

    153. Illy says:

      @Liz g:

      This man: was born with a vagina.

      This woman: was born with a penis.

      You figure out why they want to use the appropriate toilets.

    154. Liz g says:

      Cameron b Brodie @ 10.14
      Hi Cameron, hope you are well did you post that link before… I’ve definitely read it somewhere.

    155. Liz g says:

      llly @ 10.36
      I’d rather ye made a point

    156. Dr Jim says:

      The dog food salesman just raised his ugly wee Britnat head on Scotland tonight sliming and sneering at a pro Independence man from Business for Scotland who looked as though at one point was going to punch Hague in the face when Hague reached out and put his hand on him like he was inferior to him

      BTW Hagues points were the same as usual, Scotland can’t do what other small countries can do because Scotlands shite
      He should’ve just said SNP Baad a lot it would’ve been the same

    157. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Sorry Liz, it wasnae me. It must have been some other post-feminist SJW. 🙂

    158. Liz g says:

      Cameron b Brodie @ 11.00
      No matter… it is a good read, hadn’t ever considered that view before.
      Always admired female black culture, never gave a thought to it’s post feminist development !

    159. Terry says:

      Live and let live. A close friend of mine transitioned to being a woman. But to everyone that knows and admires her – and there are many – it’s her compassion and tireless campaigning about issues such as poverty, Palestine and Indy that defines her.

      She’s got a heart. And at the end of the day whatever gender, sex or identity having a heart is the only part of the anatomy that matters.

    160. HandandShrimp says:

      I see from Stu’s Twitter that Kev has reappeared. That pretty much makes a full set.

      That is it, there is definitely an Indyref2 happening soon. I know that the Maybot is still warbling about “not the time let’s be strongly stubble” but I don’t think even her own cabinet listen to her these days so why should we?

      I’m fair excited. I really enjoyed the last referendum. I’m looking forward to this.

    161. Colin Alexander says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Can’t answer that; I’m a Glaswegian. What I can tell you:

      Just be careful with the Brig ower the Nith at the top of Whitesands if driving. The lanes split halfway along the bridge to give a right turning lane ( which is the middle of the three lanes ) at either end, if you’re no expecting that, it can be a bit confusing. Just like my description.

      Google Map Buccleuch St Dumfries and go on street view to check it out.

      Much of the parking in the town centre requires a (free) permit time clock card that you “should” display – you can get them from the tourist centre on Whitesands. It allows up to two hour parking.

      There is also a private car park at Whitesands with a pay meter on the wall. It’s quite cheap though.

      There is a big car park at Brooms road that I believe takes coaches as well as cars.

      There is paid car parking at the Loreburn Shopping centre. A wee car park at Dock Park.

      The local free sheet is the Dumfries Courier. If you want to write into the letters page: name and address must be supplied and preferably a contact tel no: Newsdesk [at] dngonline [dot] co [dot] uk

      You can tell them all about it. Maybe they’ll put it beside Oliver Mundell’s weekly column.

    162. cearc says:

      re. Nana’s post 8.05,

      Ivan Roger’s talk (he was the UK ambassador who ditched the job a few months after the vote).

      The server at seems to have crashed.

      You can find the talk at paste bin

      Well worth the read.

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      IMHO, you can’t really come to grips with this issue without an appreciation of the intersectional nature of our identities. Also, this issue is huge.

      Human rights contestations: sexual orientation and gender identity


      This article asks if and why sexual orientation and gender identity-related rights should connect to a human rights framework. To answer that question it begins by addressing how we understand what makes human rights resonate or not resonate and if addressing a contentious issue such as sexual orientation or gender identity from within a human rights frame advances or detracts from such resonance. The argument developed in response is anti-foundational: i.e., that human rights’ resonance has not come from some universally valid extra-political foundational source but, rather, comes from how human rights have been transformed (at times) into tools that become relevant to everyday struggles of marginalised peoples. Considered in that context, including recognition of sexual orientation and gender identity-related rights may be extraordinarily difficult, but also presents an opportunity to re-conceptualise human rights in a way that reflects the sort of bottom-up demands that keep human rights relevant.

      Responding to critical challenges arguing that sexual orientation and gender identity-related rights are either impractical or theoretically problematic actually reinforces the saliency of this argument. It is true that human rights can be a matter of problematic top-down impositions. But when human rights are constituted by claims made by marginalised peoples, they can also powerfully advance cultural, economic, political and social empowerment. In short, including recognition of sexual orientation and gender identity-related rights is in line with how human rights have, at their best, evolved and been reimagined. Most importantly, such re-imaginings are part of what can allow human rights to be more fully informed by the pluralistic forces that animate human identity and that sometimes make human rights relevant to peoples and societies around the globe.

    164. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Colin Alexander –

      Thanks for that useful information! I shall critically appraise whatever my sat-nav says accordingly.

      Also good to hear that Oliver Mundell has a weekly ‘column’! No doubt he has friends thereabouts who appreciate it.


    165. ahundredthidiot says:

      Usually there are more posts. Maybe PC dictate is holding people back. Worrying, considering we want to win IndyRef2.

    166. ahundredthidiot says:


      you have been on the ball on day btw


    167. Liz g says:

      ahundrethidiot @ 11.39
      I am supposed to be decorating and I’m so behind now
      This Wings thing is addictive.. lol…

    168. Jeff says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 1006pm; “if, say, 10,000 of us turn up in Dumfries Saturday after next, can the town handle such an influx?

      Are any Wingers based in Dumfies? If so, can you tell us if folk are anticipating the gathering? Are they looking forward to it? Apprehensive? Local entrepreneurs ready? Pubs & hotels made sure of extra supplies?”

      There are a few of us here, Ian, but as far as I can see most people don’t even know it’s happening. The local free paper (“The Courier”) is a Tory/unionist mouthpiece and the other paper (“The Standard”) is part of the Daily Record group so is unionist/NuLabour – no mention of it will be made there unless (maybe)if you write to the letters page.

      There’s a Facebook page, and no doubt a good few locals will turn out – hundreds maybe (and if you get into the Tam ‘o Shanter Inn theres some independence minded locals there), but be warned Dumfries is mostly a mixture of Tory/Labour/Rangers/Celtic/could’nt care less dunderheids.

      I really hope to be proved wrong – it’s pretty depressing living in a Tory stronghold! Wish I could be there on the day, but I am abroad that fortnight.

    169. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Jeff (12.06) –

      Cheers for that.

      Bummer you won’t be there!

      In any event, here’s hoping the guid fowk ay Dumfries enjoy it all, even if it comes as something of a surprise to some.


    170. Still Positive says:

      nana @ 8.05

      A long read but well worth it. A bit like banging your heid against a brick wall if you’re Scottish.

      Just hope we can out of this dysfunctional union pdq.

    171. Still Positive says:

      My post 12.29

      should read get out of this dysfunctional union.

    172. Smallaxe says:

      Ian B,

      Ian, this is from O/T 9/5/18 @10:33 pm, I hope it helps a bit brother.

    173. Cactus says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 1006hrs… heck Yes!

      Cool to see you, all U new posters.

      Aweright Cameronbb bud.

      Hold me down.

      G’s an B’s.



    174. Cactus says:

      The road to hell…

      Where does it all begin n where does it end?

      Ye ever heard of the road to hea…

      Sounds like a song.


    175. Cactus says:

      Anybuddy in Scotland still up…

      300,000+ plus readers..

      Aye reckon. 🙂

      Tempt ye.

    176. twathater says:

      Schrodingers cat says:
      23 May, 2018 at 6:55 pm

      I’m also thinking that someone with a moniker like twathater should probably avoid posting on this particular thread ?

      And why should someone like me TWATHATER avoid posting on this or any other thread , believe it or not SC other people have opinions which may differ from yours , so to now be able to state an opinion we have to defer to your beliefs or get your permission to have a contrary opinion .

      It has been stated on this site many times that Stuart Campbell is the ONLY moderator who determines what comments are permitted so you will have to forgive me if I neglect to ask your permission to comment on ANY thread

      Schrodingers cat says:
      23 May, 2018 at 7:09 pm

      Lol at William wallace

      A very difficult subject handled with great tact aplomb and sensitivity

      Btw my eyes are not just watering. They are in fact bleeding

      Obviously irony escapes you in relation to your earlier replies to Liz g

      The fukc ed or killed comment was a light hearted attempt.

      But William Wallace’s made your eyes bleed

      BTW feel free to scroll past my obvious ramblings oh great and knowledgeable one

    177. Cactus says:

      No sweary words for this morning.

      That’s for tomorrow.

      In its place.

      Aye aye.

    178. William Wallace says:

      @ twathater

      It wisnae me 😉

    179. Cactus says:

      Wifi is good William.


      Cool 🙂


    180. Cactus says:

      Less than X days remaining to go…

      See ye there Scotland.


    181. William Wallace says:

      See ya there Cactus. Single malt on me. 😉

    182. Cactus says:

      Aye second yours William!



    183. Cactus says:

      Back to Girls and Boys…

    184. William Wallace says:

      Aye Cactus but afore we do.

      One for our sons and daughters.

    185. Cactus says:

      “Son ah just wrote this… ”

      A very powerful line.

      S’s and D’s!


    186. Orri says:


      Nice dose of condescension there.

      It’s both what’s between the legs and in the head that matters.

      The first isn’t completely transparent when someone is dressed which is why situations where clothes come off are the most common example.

      The second is what all the concerns about physically male people intend when in female spaces is about.

      Given we’ve had a week promoting awareness of mental health it might occur to some of us that assessing that second isn’t easy.

      However a first stab will be both verbal and non. Which is where the whole punch a TERF bullshit sets the tone.

      If someone says they’re going to attack anyone who challenges them then they self ID as belligerent. Verbal and physical abuse even moreso. Such people might gain the legal right to call themselves female but their actions should remove their right of access to shared facilities. Just like getting banned from a pub.

      To repeat, what’s between their legs raises the issue of what’s in their heads.

    187. Schrodingers cat says:

      Twathater says@1.58

      Irony escapes you

      To the sound of 1000 balloons deflating

    188. Nana says:

      cearc @11.26pm

      Thanks for posting the second link to Ivan Roger’s talk.
      It’s very long but well worth reading

    189. Phronesis says:

      Its easy to privatise the NHS and ‘confuse’ the public when one is hostile towards the entire infrastructure of state support and anyone who requires it. It’s also easier when one can demonise and marginalise in this hostile environment.

      ‘NHS England argues ACOs are about integrating health services to make the NHS sustainable. The truth is that ACOs are being established to cut services and allow private companies to receive and benefit from significant sums of tax-payer money. The Government plans to spend billions awarding giant contracts for at least 10 years to private for-profit providers. It will confuse the public and profession by calling these ‘integrated care services’. The reality is that the commercial contracting involved will be used to transfer statutory decision making for planning and resource allocation to non-statutory bodies. In this way, the risks and costs of care are shifted to patients’

      ‘Despite the faster GP workforce decline for the most deprived quintile of the population, there are still nearly twice as many FTE GPs per head for that group compared with the least deprived quintile.
      However, the faster decline in GP numbers for poorer populations is likely to exacerbate existing gaps in quality of care – with CQC ratings for GP practices in more deprived areas already worse than those for practices in affluent areas’

      ‘Anti-immigrant culture and polices have also had a serious effect on NHS staffing, both from EU and non-EU countries. The unrealistic goal of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands has led to the imposition of damaging caps to numbers of skilled workers such as doctors allowed to work in the UK…
      As a result, we now live in a country which threatens its own citizens with deportation. Where the government is not aware of whether it has deported any of its own citizens. And which has denied its citizens the right to work, housing and access to healthcare.
      If we judge a country by how humanely it treats those most in need, the picture is grim’

    190. Robert Louis says:

      So, the Growth Commision report has not even been published, indyref2 has not yet been called, and their is no formal active independence campaign, yet Project FEAR! has already started again.

      What is interesting is the near panic that is evident in the yoonitariat, churning up the same old PROVEN lies as they did in 2014. The essence of it, when distilled down, is this; ‘Scotland is too poor, too wee, too stupid’.

      This is very good news. The unionists are terrified, and I genuinely now believe that internal polling by the Tories/British Nationalists has likely revealed a shift in Scottish attitudes. They are effectively trying to desperately shut the stable door once the unicorn has got out. And Labour is jumping back into bed with the Tories. AGAIN.

      So Labour supports the Tories on Brexit, and Labour supports the Tories in preventing Scottish independence. Why would ANY Scot ever vote Labour??

      Interesting time, folks.

    191. Robert Louis says:

      Here is the posters the SNP should use if a stupid snap Westminster election is called.

      ‘Vote Tory = Brexit.

      Vote Labour = Brexit.

      Only the SNP support the Scottish people in opposing Brexit. Vote SNP.’

    192. Robert Louis says:

      As regards creeping NHS privatisation in England (which is now happening at an alarming rate), it is interesting to note how that auld evil witch Theresa May used her words at PMQ’s yesterday. When challenged on private providers taking over the NHS, she responded but referred to them as the ‘independent healthcare sector’. This is an important deliberate re-positioning of privatisation.

      It is not private healthcare now, according to the Tories it is healthcare provided by partners from the independent sector. The word ‘privatised’ is being ‘disappeared’.

      Never trust a Tory.

    193. Ken500 says:

      The Tories (Condems) cut NHS funding £20Billion from 2015 to 2020 £4Billion a year. They are having to reinstate more funding. The Scottish Gov had to mitigate the cuts. Increased/maintained SNHS spending. They have just put in £Millions to increase Nurse’s healthcare members. MUP will also cut healthcare spending.

      The Condems cut NHS/Education funding. Clegg and Cameron lied. Increased Uni fees in the rest of the UK. The Tories are bringing back grammar schools and selection. The Scottish Gov has to mitigate these cuts,

      Corbyn supports Irish unification but not self government for Scotland. Labour are useless. Something has fair spooked the unionists. ‘The Indy March?

      The unionists councils are building hotels and offices. Not needed. Wasting £Million/Billions They should be building affordable houses and funding essential services. The Trams fiasco.

    194. Ken500 says:

      May did the same with money borrowed from the Chinese for Hinkley Point, HS2. With no business case. She stated ‘private investment’ but it will be paid back in higher publicly funded subsidy. A waste of public money. Much more expensive than cheaper, more feasible alternatives.

    195. Colin Alexander says:

      re Dumfries: two toilets in Dock Park, disabled accessible, at the back of the bowling.

      A toilet in CastleDyke Park.

      Toilets and parking in the Loreburn Shopping Centre.

      Loads of pubs and cafes and shops for drinks and toilets along Whitesands too, just along from Dock Park. Dock Park itself has a wee ice cream parlour place.

      The local constituency MP and MSP are Tory. Joan McAlpine got in on the List.

      Dumfries is a tourist town. It makes a lovely day oot or weekend.

      Dumfries Musuem across the Nith from Dock Park ( looks like the bottom half of a white windmill, on the brae) is a brilliant wee museum.

    196. Illy says:


      “Nice dose of condescension there.”

      With all the nonsense flying around, condescension comes rather naturally.

      “It’s both what’s between the legs and in the head that matters.”

      Really? Then why is everyone talking purely about intent?

      “The first isn’t completely transparent when someone is dressed which is why situations where clothes come off are the most common example.”

      You get naked to go to the loo?

      “The second is what all the concerns about physically male people intend when in female spaces is about.”

      Please define “physically male” for me (please remember the existence of intersex people, and folks with XX chromosomes who have a penis, along with XXY and other variations). Also, nice erasure of trans men there. If feminism has taught us anything, then it’s that sex-specific stuff should be symmetrical. So are you worried about women in the men’s? Making trans men use the women’s is going to make it far, far easier for some man who wants to assault someone to go into the ladies.

      And can we please stop it with the “men are predators, women are victims” bullshit?

      “Given we’ve had a week promoting awareness of mental health it might occur to some of us that assessing that second isn’t easy.”

      Given all the hate shown in this thread, is it any wonder that even admitting that you’re trans to *yourself* is incredibly hard? Never mind seeing out one of the specialist clinic for helping you deal with all this. Those clinics spend more time on helping people deal with the social stigma than they do prescribing hormones.

      “However a first stab will be both verbal and non. Which is where the whole punch a TERF bullshit sets the tone.

      If someone says they’re going to attack anyone who challenges them then they self ID as belligerent. Verbal and physical abuse even moreso. Such people might gain the legal right to call themselves female but their actions should remove their right of access to shared facilities. Just like getting banned from a pub.”

      Do you remember the gay bashings? Some of us do (and some of us read history) so some people are willing to pre-emptively defend themselves from violence.

      “To repeat, what’s between their legs raises the issue of what’s in their heads.”

      So (assuming that you’ve got a penis) you’re a sex-crazed rapist maniac who can’t control himself around women? Because that’s what you’re implying here.

    197. Highland Wifie says:

      Morning Nana.
      Ok I give up. So many links there’s no point even starting anything today lol.

    198. marion says:

      This is total nonsense. Why is society accommodating the whims of people who are QED mentally ill? There is NO benefit to society in so doing.
      Bad for the good of the herd.

    199. Highland Wifie says:

      So your solution to the fact that a substantial proportion of 50% of the population has genuine concerns around this is?

    200. Fireproofjim says:

      Great links, the lawn will not be mowed today.

    201. orri says:

      OF course I take some of my clothes off to go to the loo. If I didn’t I’d crap my pants. An I get my dick out to have a pee.

      A changing room says it on the label. Same with a dressing room and a fitting room.

      And if I saw someone of the opposite gender in such a place I would question their motivations.

      Their self declaration might persuade me. It’d all depend on how they conduct themselves.

    202. mr thms says:

      When the Growth Commission report is published tomorrow, and the mainstream media begins discussions on the currency that an independent Scotland will use, what could happen to the value of the pound should Scotland become an independent country?

      This person says Scotland’s oil helps the UK’s balance of payments and is propping up the pound.

      (I would also venture that Scotland’s food and drink industry is just as important, in that regard)

      (starts at 5:00 mins)

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks Nana, it is vital that we keep our focus on the likely harmful impacts of the full English Brexit, which can be expected to undermine employment conditions for women, in particular.


      Rethinking cultural and political nationalism;

      British National Identity and the Dilemmas of Multiculturalism

    204. Robert Peffers says:


      You give a bad name to those with real problems and those real problems are not helped by aggressiveness. For the record I had a friend way back in the 1950s, when such matters were more or less taboo, who confided in me. This person was born and had a Birth Certificate that indicated the person was female.

      The problem was that nether the person, (nor the medical profession back then), could actually identify the person’s actual definitive sexual assignment. Nether sex seemed dominant and the person thus had suffered acute mental problems all their life. In fact the person looked, dressed and acted as a female but felt they had no other choice than doing so because some stranger in a maternity unit had decide that for them at birth.

      In fact it seems I was the first, non-family, person to be told what the problems was and the simple fact that someone was prepared to listen and accept the person for who they were and not what they were, seemed to be a great help.

      There is the answer. We were both just teenagers but we both learned a very important message that day.

      As far as I was concerned I learned that everyone has the right to just be themselves no matter what their personal physical attributes or appearances are.

      We are, after all, members of the same race and there is only one race – the human race. I don’t give a damn that colour you are, what sexual orientation you are, what God you believe in or what Christian sect you assign yourself. I do not care where you were born or what you were born as.

      However, I do care how you behave and how you treat others. What sex you decide to assign yourself is no one’s business but your own and, of course, those the business of those you love and who love you.

      Thing is, if you decide to shove what you are up other people’s noses they are well within their rights to tell you where you can go and when you can do so.

    205. Macart says:

      The political and democratic cost to Scotland since 2014 is both self evident and well documented. Tory government we did NOT vote for has made Scotland’s participation in our bestest partnership in the history of partnerships a running joke. It’s been a punishment exercise by any standard. There was no reward for voting no. No renewal of vision going forward. No olive branches. NO FEDERALISM. Simply punishment.

      What Westminster’s governance and economic mismanagement have cost Scotland’s electorate so far.

      Oil industry:
      In retail and financial services? Simply google job losses Scotland. RBS, B&Q, Carpet right, New Look, BHS and so many more. Waaaay too many links for a simple post.

      In real terms? Those are wage packets. Families. People. Human beings. NOT COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

      Still. Broad shoulders… something, something… stay with us. Something, something, … lead with us. We love you.

      This was and is austerity UK. A UK governed and managed by the Westminster system of politics. A central government who enjoys sole ownership of the levers of the economy. A government and economic stewardship that has managed to run up a £1.8tr (and climbing) debt. A triple lock pension still under review (see under long grass) and state pensions currently payed out from direct taxation. That has introduced draconian benefits legislation driving the poorest and most vulnerable in our society into desperation and starvation. A stewardship that has overseen increasing numbers of our own population driven into third world poverty.

      The Westminster system of government and stewardship of the UK’s economy did all of that. No one else was in charge of the UK’s economy. No big boy (or burly men) did it and ran away. Successive Labour and Conservative governments did THIS and they don’t even have the courage to take responsibility. It’s always the other guy’s fault and when convenient? It’s furriners, the poor, tartan barbarians, but never those who actually make the fucking decisions. Never those who actually hold the power or the position. Somehow it’s the powerLESS who are to blame.

      It doesn’t end there though. Now does it? These examples are all matters of public record… to date.

      Setting aside the wilful democratic and constitutional drive-by shooting that was the EU referendum. A subject which has been covered by this site and so many more quite eloquently and fully. How about its financial outcome? How is this epic bout of political self harm going to affect you in your livingroom?

      Who says it hasn’t already started?

      “Real household incomes are about £900 per household lower than we forecast in May of 2016, which is a lot of money.”

      It’s going to get a LOT worse. And by a LOT worse, I mean it’s going to make the desperation of the Thatcher years look like a party by comparison.

      Just so we’re CRYSTAL clear. The next zooming yoon policy gonk that tells you Scotland’s population lack the wit to be better than we are? That the Scottish government’s proposals for the economy of an independent Scotland are economically illiterate? The stock answer is: – We couldn’t do any worse than you. ALL of the above is the REAL cost of voting no. It’s people.

      We can change this, but you have to want to.

    206. Nana says:

      Morning Highland Wifey, never give up
      Save some links for lunch and a few for afternoon tea 🙂

      @Fireproofjim, I’m planning on getting a goat to save me grass cutting. Neighbours might be bleating however 🙂

      Morning Cameron 🙂

    207. Dr Jim says:

      All the TV and radio channels are on the case today, newspapers are running it, “journalists* are rubbishing it

      And what is it they’re rubbishing you ask. well a document that nobody’s read yet, but because the SNP have produced it to be unveiled tomorrow it’s Baad

      Of course they don’t need to read it because as British Nationalists they’re all blessed with psychic abilities, and yet none of these psychic abilities seem to extend to telling us that the results of Brexit by their own chosen government of England will be shit, yet we all know this because every other country in the world has told us this in no uncertain terms, even their own English government has told them as much yet there are still those so blind as will not see, because *British*

      In Scotland it’s worse because we have sectarian Scotland who would rather sacrifice their own children in the fires of hell than not be *British* *just because* no matter the consequences, and if they don’t vote for Independence this time and *Britain* inevitably drowns itself, as it very much looks like it will who will they blame, well not the *British* they’ll blame the EU they’ll blame the SNP they’ll blame everybody the BBC tells them to, but guess who they won’t blame

      Them bloody selves

    208. Breeks says:

      Radio 2 news bulletins leading with tax increases of £1,200 to £2,000 over next 15 years to pay for the English NHS / blurred distinction of “UK” healthcare.

      Tory policy in action. Sell off NHS resources, squander the wealth generated, then both raise concerns and warnings about funding future healthcare at the same time as making the NHS a basket case drain on resources which has to be got rid off and privatised.

      It’s like dry rot. By the time privatisation is there too see, the fungus has already infested much more of the fabric and weakened it from within to the point of virtual collapse.

    209. Ken500 says:

      The Tories cut tax for the wealthiest. In 2009 £600Billion was raised in taxes. Now in UK £533Nillion is raised in taxes. Scotland raises more pro rata. £54Billion (without Oil revenues).

      Take £54Billion from £533Billion = £479Billion divide by 11 (11/12 pop) = £43.5Billion pro rata. Rest of the UK borrows and spends £100Billion more. (£50Billion public/£50Billion private). Pro rata £10Billion more.

      Scotland has to pay £Billion in debt repayments not borrowed or spent in Scotland.
      £54Billion. Scotland gets back £30Block Grant. £16Billion (UK Gov pension/welfare benefits), £4Bilion Defence (£1Billion Trident), £4Billion Gov administration Jobs should be in Scotland.

      Scotland loses £Billions in Oil revenues and thousands of jobs. Tory high taxes 40% since Jan 2016. Loses EU grants and investment renewables/CCS etc because of Westminster indecision. Extra EU CAP payments taken from Scotland by Westminster.

    210. cearc says:


      You’ve got sheep next door!?

      Try a couple of hens, they should keep it down. Probably have to pen them in the winter or they might kill it off.

    211. Illy says:

      @Highland Wifie:

      I’d start by suggesting that we don’t punish all the blondes for Nazi war crimes.

      So many people here are saying that one group of people should be punished for the *potential* actions of another group of people I question whether you’ve all decided to be badly written movie villains.

      Seriously, when did “these people are kinda like those people, and I am really scared of those people, so lets make these people’s lives hell” become a valid way to solve any problem?

    212. Liam says:

      I’ve noticed that if people are asked simply if they’d mind ‘gender-neutral’ toilets – which have existed in various places for some years – they’re generally fine about it. Why would they not be? There doesn’t seem to be much of a threat, does there?

      As far as I know all public disabled toilets are ‘gender-neutral’ and don’t provoke debate. So the thought of gender neutral toilets is not an issue. The issue is everyone trying to force a binary solution to a non-binary problem.

      I’m not sure what the solution is. Last year at Glasgow Pride I used (women’s) toilets (temporarily) assigned as gender neutral and, as a man, felt uncomfortable. Though I did notice – as I have noticed before while working on building sites and hotels working in usually unaccessible places – that women’s toilets are mostly a hell of a lot nicer than men’s. Bigger, cleaner, better designed. Better maintained.

    213. Nana says:


      Sheep next door! But hey you know me, I’m up to a challenge 🙂

    214. Illy says:

      @Robert Peffers:

      “You give a bad name to those with real problems and those real problems are not helped by aggressiveness.”

      Concern trolling isn’t helpful, you know.

      “Thing is, if you decide to shove what you are up other people’s noses they are well within their rights to tell you where you can go and when you can do so.”

      Tell that to Rosa Parks.

    215. marion says:

      This is all such a load of nonsense. Why is society letting itself get all bent out of shape to accommodate the delusions of folk who are – QED – mentally ill.

      Bad for the health of the herd.

    216. Tackety Beets says:

      We are in for an avalanche, it will be annoying as f€@k.

      We need to remember the words from Braveheart “Hold, hoold,……hooold ……hoooold”

      I was EU sceptic, the pre EU ref there was poor info so played the game in hope of our current situation ……so glad I did.

      Here is a clip from yesterday , with the kinda info we SHOULD have been given.

    217. Abulhaq says:

      David Coburn MEP
      @UKIP Member of European Parliament for Scotland, Leader of @UKIP_Scotland, British Unionist & Secular Libertarian.

      Has the above member of the secular and libertarian righteous been seen in Scotland recently?
      With Brexit this charlatan will be out of a job….what a quandary.

    218. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Smallaxe –

      Cheers aplenty.


    219. Effijy says:

      Very interested to hear the Tory plan to increase taxes yet again
      To fund £350 Million per week extra for the NHS.

      If thecTories were ever to be believed, I take it that this is on top
      Of the £350 Million pledge by the Tory Cabinet Ministers, Bungling Boris,
      Grovelling Gove, and Lie’ um Fox?

      If they put up taxes by enough, we should be able
      To give more tax cuts to the rich and the big Corporations.

      What is it about English Voters that most of them accept these things?

    220. Donald anderson says:

      Whit aboot the Scottish male prisoner who declared himself a wumman, got transferred and left some of the female prison inmates pregnant?

    221. Sabs says:

      I fed up to the back teeth of this bull. Our women’s group (for sexual abuse survivers) in Wales had to shut down because of a trans “woman”-sorry MAN (yes) demanding access. Back in the day we were nieve and were trying to be inclusive and welcoming, first he started derailing everything with his unbelievable self-centredness then HE exposed himself to one of the women in the group in the carpark. He was ejected from the group and his response was to send abusive r8pe themed messages and key our cars. F8CK THIS SHIT. Oh yes I as a lesbian no longer attend LGB clubs/bars because these trans “women” hijack everything with their attention seeking and lack of personal and sexual boundaries. I’m talking M2F we have none of these issues with FTM. Gay clubs/societies/bars are for GAY people not people with gender identity issues. I am finding more and more than trans does not equal gay- it equals drama and unpleasantness.

    222. Liz g says:

      llly @ 10.29
      While I do find this subject very interesting, partly because I don’t know a great deal about it.
      And I like to learn, especially through “reasoned” debate
      I will have to make this my only comment on it today, mainly due to time.
      But since I said so much about it yesterday, I think it would be rude not to answer you….

      I have never said that the Trans community are lesser people, or dangerous people.
      I can also see that there is a case to be made for a change in the way society as a whole behaves towards Trans folk.
      My issue is legislating for that change.
      Firstly, I don’t believe that ye can legislate attitudes.
      EG.. Because of the US freedom of speech protections, the -N- word can’t be legally banned.
      But now a days, no serious person would use it and neither would anyone who wants to be taken seriously.
      There’s also a social cost to any one who does.

      But mainly… To put in legislation, requires not only the case to be made for it, but also to consider and find solutions to any unintended consequences of that legislation.
      Now obviously those consequences have to be imagined…. this is neither neurotic or blaming a people’s for the potential crimes of another group, don’t ye think?

      Which bring me to the points I was trying to make yesterday…..
      The concerns that this legislation could open the door for creeps and actual pervs to piggyback on to the achievements of the Trans community, and enjoy the protections of the law, is a real one.
      As your fotays clearly showed which facilitates were appropriate, they also, I think, demonstrated what I was getting at.

      It’s very unlikely anyone who is not actually Trans, would dress in that way to access a toilet,of course it is.
      But, could the protections of the law allow anybody with twisted intentions to claim the rights to be in a toilet when dressed as they normally would be?

      Now I assume that there’s no plans to legislate for how people dressed?
      I am saying that if the Trans community are the ones asking for legislation then surely the burden is upon them to find solutions to the concerns.
      And certainly not to rubbish them with scarcasim , when these concerns are listed.
      Everybody will have their story and the Trans community would probably be better served if they acknowledged that too.

      Woman are not making this stuff up, I would have thought it was in fact common knowledge?
      Plenty of stats about it too.
      But as far as I can tell they haven’t met their burden of providing solutions to the issues that the legislation they are proposing throws up?
      So I would have said….. sell it to us…. and I don’t mean keep saying why you need it
      I mean show how it would work….. Women as a group are usually, while cautious, also compassionate.
      I doubt that there’s many of us who haven’t been aware of a Trans person next to them in the loo, it’s never been much of an issue as far as I’m aware, but I still want the right not to be wrong to challenge a creep!

      Sorry I can’t stay to actually have a discussion, if you are ever at any of the events, I would love to chat I’m always at the Wing stall at some point in the day.

    223. orri says:

      Some great double standards going on,

      We the great unwashed can’t punish blondes because of the Nazi’s (what the actual fuck!) but self styled anti-Terf’s and trans activists can beat up anyone they like as a pre-emptive self defense manouver.

      Basically the message is that not only are they advocating self-ID but at the same time stating an intent to use violence if questioned.

    224. Holly says:

      All-women shortlists for parliamentary candidature are indeed compliant with law (including the 2010 Equality Act) as the Labour Party’s National Executive Committee states.
      However they are NOT compliant with the Labour Party’s own constitution which prohibits all forms of gender discrimination at meetings during which Labour Party business is conducted.
      Yes, the Labour Party constitution prohibits gender affirmative action.

    225. Ealasaid says:

      Mr Peffers keeps telling us that WE are the SOVEREIGN people and it is not just big companies that can lobby politicians. If we are sovereign then the SNP cannot be seen to lead the push for independence, it MUST come from the people, the grass roots.

      Westminster keeps telling us that nobody is interested in another referendum. While the marches and other demonstrations are fantastic I feel we should really make our presence felt with those who govern our countries, Scotland and the UK.

      Having seen charities now asking us to contact our politicians on various matters, why are we not contacting them about another referendum. Even if it is a ’round robin’ letter is it possible to see that it comes from different people and not a BOT? Somebody more technical may able to answer this.

      We should be emailing all our MPs and MSPs (including those on the lists) of all Parties to make our feelings and points known. After all we were told that voting NO was the only way to stay in the EU. Since then we voted in even larger numbers to stay in the EU but Westminster says we cannot have both. This is a huge change in circumstance. So we have to vote again.
      UK or EU

      Could this be organised through local YES groups or other means? Does anyone else agree that this should be pushed? If nothing else so many emails landing in their inboxes should scare the bejeebers out of them.

      What say you?

      Get off your knees Scotland.

    226. Highland Wifie says:

      There has been no reference to punishment. Your suggestion that trans women are going to “pre-emptively defend themselves from violence” goes against all human legal precedent.
      Women are not permitted to attack a man pre-emptively in case he decides to attack them.

      So it’s a problem women need to solve on the basis that trans women (men) could be attacked by men? Funny how male violence is always a woman’s problem.

    227. Illy says:

      @liz g:
      “Now obviously those consequences have to be imagined…. this is neither neurotic or blaming a people’s for the potential crimes of another group, don’t ye think?”

      @ Highland Wifie:

      “There has been no reference to punishment.”

      Banning a group of women from using the women’s toilets, because or a completely separate group of perverted men might do something illegal seems an awful lot like punishment to me.

      Womens toilets are not locked with a magic gender lock. Perverts can already enter them.

      Making people use the toilet based on their birth certificate will *reduce* the social stigma that currently stops women using the mens, and men using the womens. Because you’ll be legislatively forcing people with a beard, muscles and penis into the ladies, and people with boobs, hips and vagina into the mens.

      There’s already been incidents where these sort of laws have been passed where cis women have been accused of being trans and removed from the bathroom. It really doesn’t help anything.

      “So it’s a problem women need to solve on the basis that trans women (men) could be attacked by men?”

      You’re making a rather elementary mistake there by calling a transgender woman a man. She’s not. Please provide a definition of male and female that accounts for intersex people, XX male, and all the other variations before you argue that point.

      “Women are not permitted to attack a man pre-emptively in case he decides to attack them.”

      No more than anyone else is, no. But “feeling threatened” is enough for a self-defence argument in court.

      “So I would have said….. sell it to us…. and I don’t mean keep saying why you need it
      I mean show how it would work….”

      What are you even asking of me here? I just want to live my life and not be bothered by violent idiots, but I’m in so many of the groups that violent idiots like being violent towards that I doubt that’s going to happen. So of course I’m going to be upset when people point at the violent idiots who like to attack me as a reason to stop me living my life in peace and happiness.

    228. Highland Wifie says:

      The elementary mistake you are making is not recognising that women’s sex based rights were put in place for a reason and insisting that trans women are women sets one group of disadvantaged people against another. How does society balance each group’s rights without disadvantaging the other? Most of the narrative I’m seeing from the trans community is the expectation that women will just happily give up their right to safe spaces because men identifying as women want it.

      Please stop using the toilets red herring. This issue is more profound and far reaching than who pees where. I repeat, threats of violence come mainly from born males, not born females. I have yet to see women in balaclavas intimidating men with threats of violence for mis gendering them.

    229. Illy says:

      @Highland Wifie:

      “because men identifying as women want it.”

      You’re still not getting it. I really doubt it’s ever going to get through to you, but you’re arguing to legally force this guy: and this guy: to be treated as women as far as “womens spaces” are concerned.

      Is that what you want? Because that’s what you’re arguing for.

    230. Highland Wifie says:

      As it’s clear you have no intention of addressing any of my points but simply continue to post links to unevidenced pictures of random people there seems no point in continuing this conversation.

    231. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      A perfect example of why we shouldn’t touch issues like this with a 20m bargepole, at least if we are primarily concerned about promoting independence. Just like all the other socio-political diversions that keep being raised by the usual suspects. Guaranteed to alienate one segment of potential supporters or another. =roll eyes=

      Once we get independence, we can argue about such things as much as we care to. All that earnest jostling for the bien-pensant moral high ground. Or get on all those very practical everyday things that have been put in cold storage since 2014, as most ordinary folk like yours truly will do.

      Whatever. But anyway, afterwards.

    232. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 1.50
      Em…well the Rev brought it up,and the issue has become political.
      I say that because,I am not convinced that the people involved aren’t, being used,by the Media and the politicians
      Highland Wife @ 11.23
      I agree,there is no point in continuing the conversation if its not moving on… but I don’t think that is necessarily llly’s fault,I don’t think, that, while she is supportive of the bid for the proposals,and feels strongly enough to say so.
      She has the information we are looking for.
      She said as much in her @ 6.27 post to me.
      By the way, the focus on toilets was all me,as it,I felt, was the best or at least the fastest illustration of what I ment..
      llly @ 6.37
      I am in a group that wants a peaceful life too!
      I am also in a group that has been a target for violent idiots…mearly because of my gender,something that I don’t have control over either!
      And the little protection that my group have managed to gain,in law,need guarding.. Wouldn’t ye agree,or at least understand?

      I am not aware that there’s any proposals to – Ban – anyone from toilets…Please correct me if I’m wrong!!

      I had thought that the issue was that there are proposed rights to be legislated for…
      If that is indeed the case…. Then what “I am asking of you” is..

      Tell me/us how the legislation is to be worded,to ensure that it doesn’t undermine the protections that are already in place for my group?

      Now you obviously know that the wording of legislation matters,because you have indicated that you are well versed in the self defence kind!
      So how will what you propose achieve what you need, work without impinging on the little I have?

      I would also be interested in,your thoughts on generic safety advice for parents to give..
      As I’m sure you will agree that children are also a group,who,abusive idiots,are also violent towards.

      You see llly,I cannot say there’s no need for a law,but I can say that the group who proposed writing that law make the case for it,the whole case and that very much includes exploring,identifying and guarding against the unintended consequences!

      Also….If you are not comfortable answering me…that’s fine llly,just leave it here..either way I’m glad you spoke up.

    233. Illy says:

      @Highland Wifie:

      “simply continue to post links to unevidenced pictures of random people there seems no point in continuing this conversation.”

      I’m pointing out the lunacy of your position. You want to ban trans women from women’s spaces? You have to force trans men into those spaces.

      And those are hardly “unevidenced” pics. They’re both pretty famous trans men. I figured if you’d done any research into the subject at all then you’d recognize them.

      @Liz g:

      “I am not aware that there’s any proposals to – Ban – anyone from toilets…Please correct me if I’m wrong!!”

      Any time this comes up, I remember North Carolina, which *has* banned trans women from using the women’s.

      “Tell me/us how the legislation is to be worded,to ensure that it doesn’t undermine the protections that are already in place for my group?”

      How about simply accepting that trans women are women? The overwhelming majority of trans women don’t use women-only spaces until they think that they at least somewhat “pass”, because of all the social stigma around the whole issue. Why is new legislation required? The current legislation in the UK seems to be working just fine to me, what’s needed is better funding for the GICs (and NHS in general), and better education for GPs and the general public.

      Some other things that would help:

      > People acknowledging that trans men exist.
      > Losing the “men are predators, women are victims” mentality.
      > People not focusing on trans women to the exclusion of trans men, intersex people, genderfluid people, and the rest of the spectrum.
      > People acknowledging that gender and sex are both multidimensional spaces, where most people fall into one of two groupings, which are commonly labeled “male” and “female”, but that not everyone does.
      > People not getting their biological facts wrong.
      > People accepting that changing someone’s brain is far, far harder than changing their body. (and far more scary – if we were able to “fix” transgender folks by adjusting their brain we’d already have created the Dollhouse)

    234. Liz g says:

      Yer all over the place there llly
      Firstly can I reassure ye that any American legislation adopted in to Scottish Law, is mair likely tae be plant based than animal based.

      While you remember North Carolina…. I’ll take a minute or two for India…Eh?
      But we are still no adding anything to a Scottish debate!

      Are ye now sayin that there’s no attempt to change UK law?
      Mibbi ye should have led wi that

      As for yer list…..well that seems to be about attitude and education.
      I’ve already said I don’t think you can legislate for attitude….. and while we are on the subject.

      If you think that Woman’s issues (the ones we actually successfully got laws for, based on facts and evidence)is mearly a mindset, that’s labelled victim/preadator.
      Then you my friend are a hypocrite.
      You just dismissed out of hand any Woman who speaks about her concerns as pretty much having it all in her head!
      Take a wee bit of yer aim advice there llly!

    235. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 05:28,

      I’m guessing Liz that Stu brought the topic up because it’s an object lesson on what not to do in the face of an important campaign, as all-too-typically illustrated by the wacko fringe of the Labour Party, but alas now, I fear, being imported into the SNP by more recent arrivals as well.

      The kind of agonising that has so blighted the term “liberal” in the USA. Displacement activity for the ultra-precious in place of productive focused political action.

      There’s maybe some kind of issue in there somewhere for a small minority of folks but it’s absolutely guaranteed to leave the vast majority of the population stone-cold, asking themselves “is this really the most important issue of the day to be spending so much time agonising over?”, then going out to vote for some other party that sticks to the basics. Especially in this case the women, for reasons too obvious to mention.

      There’s already a hint of that kind of thing happening with the SNP in the NE. I believe it is far more than just “the fishing”, it’s the start of a backlash against ultra-progressive politics, central-belt style, as they see it.

      The way to win indy is most definitely not to convince the current doubters that a new Scotland will be some kind of ultra-radical paradise for mad social engineers in which they themselves will have no place.

      Them’s the practicalities of winning. Just sayin’.

    236. Highland Wifie says:

      @Liz g
      Well said Liz. You’ve got the measure of Illy now. The most vocal trans activists have no interest in debating human rights and agreeing an acceptable compromise. It’s all about pushing the trans agenda no matter the cost to any other group. Hence the determination to focus on the most masculine looking trans men that should, in Illy’s world, be accepted in women’s spaces. Do we really think these trans men would stand out and be vulnerable in a men’s space?
      Read Miranda Yardley, a trans woman who talks sense. She has been permanently banned from Twitter for stating that a trans woman is a man. This should chill you.

    237. Liz g says:

      Robert j Sutherland @ 1.19
      I think yer correct Robert J …. A cautionary tale righ enough!

      Highland Wife @ 3.39
      Thank you for sayin.
      I never got any answers to what I was asking, and I was very aware that I might come across as being really down on men, which is not the case.
      I just tried to explain how women are not going to go along with this and why.

      Anyhoo I’m done replying as I am being to think llly either can’t or won’t answer but rather is using our replies to repeat a mantra and showcase some photographs, that tell us nothing about the issue .
      Still think that this is a manufactured distraction and the Trans community are being used…
      But I’m done with it here…. much more relevant stuff on the other threads…
      See ye there

    238. Illy says:

      @Highland Wifie:

      You’ve completely ignored what I’ve been saying. Those men were born with *vaginas*. *YOU* are the one saying that you want them in women’s spaces. I’m just pointing out the absurdity of your position.

    239. Illy says:

      “Anyhoo I’m done replying as I am being to think llly either can’t or won’t answer”

      You’ve both made it completely obvious that you’re not reading anything I’m writing. I’ve been answering every question you asked, and providing massive fucking examples of why trans men should use the mens, and trans women should use the womens.

      And you accuse me of repeating a mantra?

      To make it absolutely clear: a trans man identifies as a man, and probably was born with a vagina. A trans woman identifies as a woman, and was probably born with a penis.

      Are you going to actually read what I’m saying? Or just keep repeating your mantra?

    240. Highland Wifie says:

      @Liz g
      Spot on again Liz. See you.

    241. A says:

      “And that’s not to mention people who are born intersex. That’s folks who are born with “indeterminate” genitalia.

      Want me to keep going?”

      Yes please, please carry on until you get to the bit where intersex people and their organisations have repeatedly insisted that they don’t want to be conflated with transgenderism or used as argument fodder for trans cult nonsense. Where’s your respect for them?

    242. A says:

      Illy says “Losing the “men are predators, women are victims” mentality.”

      Nine out of ten sexual assaults are committed by men against women. So no, we won’t be losing that “mentality” until that fact changes.

      You don’t have to listen to trans cultists for very long before their essential misogyny emerges.

    243. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for the delay in posting this but I’m reliant on internet cafes, atm. I certainly don’t want to badly advise the independence movement, but identity is central to the political process and questions regarding resource allocation, for example.

      When Philosophers Fail to Do Their Job

      ?The idea that genders are social roles — or “performances,” to use Judith Butler’s terminology — makes some sense within the traditional gender binary. There are, after all, long-established roles and expectations for men and women. But many in the trans movement want to liberate us from this constraining duality (see for a more inclusive list of gender options). It’s fair to ask whether each item on the extended list really corresponds to some social role, or performance, that exists not only in some tiny subculture but in the broader society. What should be the criterion for whether something constitutes a gender role? Is it possible to be wrong about whether a gender role exists?

      ? If there’s one idea that proponents of the trans movement uniformly reject, it’s gender essentialism, the “gross” idea, according to the digital magazine Everyday Feminism, “that men and women have inherent, unique, and natural attributes that qualify them as their separate genders.” Many, however, embrace the idea that one’s gender identity qualifies one as belonging to that gender — and that gender identity is an essential part of everyone’s personal identity. Is that a form of gender essentialism? If so, why is it less objectionable than the traditional view?

      Transgender: examining an emerging political identity using three political processes


      This study examines the construction of a new political identity category in the USA during the 1990s, transgender, focusing on three political processes: (1) conflict over meanings associated with the identity category; (2) backlash in the form of stigmatization from other groups that prompted frame transformation; and (3) representation, particularly across political venues where information about the new identity category is disseminated. Using a Historical Discourse Analysis approach to the archived documents of transgender social movement activists, publications, and interest groups from 1990 to 1999, this study shows how activists and leaders shaped what had previously been disparate groups into a unified identity category and associated interest group coalition to represent transgender-identified people. While this new identity category and coalition allowed the projection of unity that is necessary in contemporary interest group politics, this analysis shows that it also obscured important differences within the transgender identity category and helped to produce within-group marginalization and exclusions that endure in contemporary transgender, lesbian, and gay politics.;

      Transfeminist Perspectives in and beyond Transgender and Gender Studies

      Introduction: Transfeminist Perspectives (pp. 1-15)

      This book is born of the conviction that feminist studies and transgender studies are intimately connected to one another in their endeavor to analyze epistemologies and practices that produce gender. Despite this connection, they are far from integrated.Transfeminist Perspectivesin and beyondTransgender and Gender Studiesseeks to highlight the productive and sometimes fraught potential of this relationship. Feminist, women’s, and gender studies grew partly from Simone de Beauvoir’s observation that “one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”¹ Transgender studies extends this foundation, emphasizing that there is no natural process by which any one becomes woman, and…

    244. mossystone says:

      I’m astounded and perturbed that this topic is discussed virtually solely from a ‘rights’ angle (where I suspect debate can continue indefinitely, mostly in circles, and little benefit).

      Where is the (surely needed) discussion from the ‘what is causing this?’ angle? Why this seemingly radical increase in alternative sexual orientation and gender dysphoria (feeling oneself to be a different gender to one’s genetic XX female or XY male gender)?

      [And I know that there are people, a small percentage, who outwardly are gender-indeterminate, and some who are XXY, XYY etc. But most homosexuals, bisexuals, trans identifiers etc are not in those medically-identifiable groups, are they?]

      There is also the decline in fertility, noted in the developed world more so than elsewhere.

      ‘Something in the water’ is an old chestnut of a phrase. But what if it is humankind’s pollution that is undermining physical and mental development, disrupting gender, impairing fertility and robbing many of ordinary human happiness?

      Phthalates (used in plastics), cyclic aromatic hydrocarbons such as benzene and toluene, herbicides/pesticides (such as glyphosate and other compounds in the mix with it) have all been distributed widely in the environment, ending up in foodstuffs, water and the air over the past fifty to a hundred years. Some cause cancers, some disrupt the endocrine (hormone) system; and hormones are a means by which genetic sex gives rise to expressed gender (including the associated urges and emotions). It is a sensitive system (tiny concentrations having big effects); easy to see why varied exposures to different pollutants in the womb or at key life stages, plus individual inbuilt differences, would not lead to uniform outcomes in every individual.. Some evidently severely affected, others apparently not affected, many in between.

      Have the chemical industry and businesses based on it impacted untold human lives in this profound way? I think so; and I reckon this could turn out to be more devastating socially than the thalidomide scandal, or the tobacco-company cancer cover-ups.

      Of course, life-experiences and choices made, with their resulting outcomes and conclusions drawn, come into human gender and sexuality too.
      But basic health is surely needed as a sound foundation.

      I am sure it would be wise to have a scientific commission looking (long-term) into the statistics of gender and fertility disturbance, together, and the social implications of that.

      I am also sure that vested interests (as with tobacco) would oppose such investigation, or publication of such findings..
      because what then would follow?

      How to compensate for messing people up at so intimate a level?

    245. Illy says:

      “Why this seemingly radical increase in alternative sexual orientation and gender dysphoria”

      That one’s easy: There’s more awareness, so more people are getting diagnosed, and there’s more acceptance, so less people are staying repressed/in the closet about it.

    246. Nate says:

      that’s a nice straw man you got there, but this literally isn’t how transgenderism works.

      Anyway, the problem with the self-id poll here is that- since trans people are approximately less that 1% of the population- it favours the opinions of cisgender people. And it’s obvious that the majority opinion on the topic on an issue about a marginalized group shouldn’t come from the majority group.
      Cisgender people are often not properly educated on trans matters, and have distorted views on the subject because of socially constructed ideology; irrational fear; and a limited understand of modern science, among some other factors.
      Your article also commits multiple logical fallacies. specifically, an argument from ignorance and an appeal to fear.
      I think you should learn more about trans identity before you try to write on it. Gender dysphoria is not a decision we get to make, and I’d like everyone (trans people included) to stop pretending like it is.

    247. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Anyway, the problem with the self-id poll here is that- since trans people are approximately less that 1% of the population- it favours the opinions of cisgender people. And it’s obvious that the majority opinion on the topic on an issue about a marginalized group shouldn’t come from the majority group.”

      When we polled Scotland, we divided the sample by sexuality as well as other factors. EVERY group – straight, gay, bi or “other” – opposed self-ID. But even if that wasn’t the case, why should 0.5% (or far less) of the population get to dictate the law to the vast, vast majority?

      You don’t get to tell people what their opinions are.

    248. Nate says:

      “When we polled Scotland, we divided the sample by sexuality as well as other factors. EVERY group – straight, gay, bi or “other” – opposed self-ID. But even if that wasn’t the case, why should 0.5% (or far less) of the population get to dictate the law to the vast, vast majority?”

      you divided it by sexuality- etc- good for you? your point? Sexuality has literally nothing to do with trans status. Cisgender gays’ opinions aren’t on the same level as trans opinions. Why should an ignorant majority, who do not have any grasp on the condition I have, get to dictate a law that- contrary to popular belief- only *actually* affects people like me?

      “You don’t get to tell people what their opinions are.”
      You’re entitled to your own opinion. I never said you weren’t.
      But what you’re not entitled to is the freedom to spread misinformation and to scapegoat a minority group on a public platform. Because this isn’t an opinion, it’s a prejudice. And it’s just not really a… valuable or insightful commentary, to be fairly honest. Parading ignorance around isn’t a social commentary, it’s just disheartening.

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