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The law that nobody wants

Posted on January 03, 2018 by

On a number of previous occasions we’ve highlighted the weird discrepancy between the undivided loathing of the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act in the Scottish media and the Act’s overwhelming popularity with the Scottish public.

You will struggle to ever hear a voice anywhere in the media in favour of it, yet there has never been a law in the history of the Holyrood parliament that is as universally backed by the electorate as the OBFA. Support for it crosses party lines, unites men and women, the old and the young, the rich and the poor, Yes voters and No voters, Celtic fans and “Rangers” fans, football lovers and football haters, and pretty much any other groups you can think of.

Despite their own voters wanting to retain it, however, the combined opposition parties may well succeed in having the Act repealed this year, for reasons of their own that we can’t begin to rationally explain.

Meanwhile, every party at Holyrood – this time including the SNP – looks as though they may be preparing to come together and implement the LEAST-wanted legislation (in terms of public opinion) that the Parliament will have ever seen.

But which legislation are we talking about?

The UK and Scottish governments are both currently conducting reviews of the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, in which it is proposed to in the future allow people to legally “self-define” the fact of whether they’re a man or a woman.

While the debate around the review is cloaked in obfuscatory language about “gender” (a term nobody can now agree on the meaning of), what it actually means is “sex”. The review proposes making it much easier for people to alter their birth certificates and passports, and what birth certificates and passports identify is “Sex”, not “Gender”.

(Official documents all focus on “sex” because depending on where you look, there are currently either 33 different “genders”, or 36, or 37, or 51, or 56, or 58, or 71, or 76, or almost any other number you can imagine. New “genders” are created on a near-daily basis. There will almost certainly be more genders by the time you’ve finished reading this article than there were when you started.)

Currently the process of “transitioning” legally from one sex to the other takes over two years and requires the would-be transitioner to meet a number of conditions.

All of these conditions would be abolished under the proposed changes, and a person could instantly legally become their chosen sex simply by declaring it.

There are about a thousand immediately obvious major problems with this idea, which have been discussed at length elsewhere and which we don’t intend to reprise in this post. (If you’re interested, try here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here, just to get you started.)

The suggestion made in the Times piece above – namely that challenging transgender self-identification will be considered a hate crime if the proposals are enacted – seems to have been borne out already by the closure of numerous websites and Twitter accounts, including Whole Woman and Transcrime UK, and by other sites removing articles and letters after torrents of abuse and threats.

Most transgender people just want to live out their lives in peace, free from persecution and fear the same way as everyone else does, but the debate has been more recently polarised by some hyper-militant trans activists, mainly biologically-male “women” who openly reject the idea of any form of physical transition (eg hormone therapy, surgery) and/or actively taunt, goad or threaten opponents – mainly biological women, who are pejoratively dismissed as “cis” – with their masculine appearance and appendages.

(This often involves referring to their intact penises as their “girl dick” or similar.)

The subject has also split the LGBT community, in part because lesbians have been especially targeted for abuse if they say they’re not sexually attracted to trans “women” who still have male genitalia.

(The tensions between the “L” and “T” sections grew over Christmas when the leading LGBT website Pink News published a list of its “Heroes Of 2017” in which every single ostensibly lesbian figure was in fact born male, though after a storm of protest it swiftly edited some biological women in.)

The main opposition to the proposed changes comes from feminists concerned about the erosion of women’s rights which took decades or even centuries to win. Many have been denounced, subjected to various forms of exclusion or physically assaulted by biologically-male trans activists merely for attempting to debate the issue in public – often after being attacked as “TERFs”, meaning “trans-exclusionary radical feminist”.

But our poll found that it’s not just feminists who are unhappy about it. Scots opposed the proposals by a margin of more than 3:1, and just as with support for OBFA, the opposition to self-declaration went right across the board.

Excluding the 24% Don’t Knows, men and women were both against the move by a crushing margin of 54 points (23% to 77%). Young people were the least anti but still 28 points against (36-64), with the middle-aged group opposed by 52 points (24-76) and the elderly by a gargantuan 74 points (13-87).

Native-born Scots rejected the idea by 52 points, those born south of the border by 62 points. Well-off ABC1s recorded a 52-point margin, almost identical to the 54 points of poorer C2DE respondents. Yes and No voters were against by 30 points and 72 points respectively, with Remain and Leave voters tallying anti-change margins of 38 points and 76 points in that order.

For supporters of the political parties, the net balance against the proposals was 86 points (Tories), 44 points (Labour), a not-very-liberal 54 points (Lib Dems) and 36 points (SNP). Among football fans there was the somewhat unusual phenomenon of “Rangers” recording a bigger points tally (58 points) than Celtic (54 points), with other clubs’ supporters netting 42 points of difference and football-haters 56 points.

(For perspective on these numbers, remember that the indyref margin was 10 points and the EU referendum margin in Scotland, which was regarded as an overwhelming win for Remain, was 24 points.)

Finally, for the first time in a Wings poll we asked about people’s sexuality, partly out of general curiosity but mainly for the purposes of this question, and while the numbers are too small to be statisically representative, the results were that non-heterosexual Scots (including transgender) narrowly opposed the proposals too, by 51-49 overall.

This, then, is by some distance the most unpopular law ever seriously contemplated by the Scottish Parliament since it reconvened in 1999. Yet such an incredible climate of intimidation and intolerance surrounds the subject that to the best of our knowledge not one politician in Scotland has spoken out against the review proposals.

And whatever their opinions on the issue itself may be, readers may feel that that’s an uncomfortable position for a democracy to find itself in.

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  1. 03 01 18 11:56

    The law that nobody wants | speymouth

  2. 07 01 18 10:40

    Have an informed opinion on the Gender Recognition Consultation - Autonomy Scotland

  3. 12 01 18 02:15

    ‘Anti-Capitalist Queers’ Fail to Shut Down Glasgow Women’s Discussion on the Gender Recognition Act | GenderTrender

  4. 18 03 20 12:59

    Consultation Guidance - Archive -

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    Review of our #BinTheBill GRA Consultation Campaign -

  6. 13 01 21 15:08

    GRA through the back door? | Grumpy Scottish Man

259 to “The law that nobody wants”

  1. Gaelstorm says:

    Seems like bollocks to me.

  2. HandandShrimp says:

    I would have likely been a don’t know if faced with these questions. Put simply it is utterly confusing and I have no idea how there can be 71 genders or why so many of them hate each other so viscerally.

    In the words of the FSM I’d Really Rather You Didn’t use my existence as a means to oppress, subjugate, punish, eviscerate, and/or, you know…be mean to others. I don’t require sacrifices, and purity is for drinking water, not people.

    or to use the vernacular “Live and let live without prejudice…it’s nice to be nice”

  3. bobajock says:

    Punch and abuse your local Tim/Hun?

    But only if they identify as a human being?

    We all bleed.

  4. Ottomanboi says:

    This LGBTQI etc gender stuff belongs in the loony lanes of Brighton. A tiny narcissistic minority is making supine fools of us all. Scots have much more important matters to deal with than this funfair freakery. The SNP might start to lift its eyes above the politically correct waist line. Independence…..remember that? Idle hands indeed.
    Interestingly countries with a puritanical or calvinistic background tend to suffer more from this nonsense; a case of overcompensation perhaps.

  5. Brian Powell says:

    And another huge problem is when this goes outside the bubble of the UK. Extremely serious consequences for this in other countries, who don’t care about personal decisions, they go with what they see.

  6. Cath says:

    Thanks for this. I started to fill out the consultation on this bill last night, but stopped because I wasn’t sure I had enough information and felt I should go and read up more to do it justice. This is a great start, but it’s also worrying because I thought I must be missing something about the legislation. Doesn’t seem I am from this.

  7. Brian Powell says:

    I can see why the combined Unionist parties want the OBFA repealed, it’s because they are thick shits who want to do any little thing to oppose the SG SNP, as for a start it would highlight their total failure to have done much over the last 100years and then they hate the SNP, but for the Greens, that i don’t understand.

  8. Normski says:

    I wonder what percentage of the overall population true-trans and fake-trans people actually constitute? 0.1%?

    You do gotta wonder how a parliament could be wasting so much time on the whole nutty trans nonsense.

  9. Andrew Davidson says:

    I love how you like to stick to talking the easy safe topics…….

    I saw some of the storm going on online a few weeks ago from the sidelines and learned a whole bunch of terms seem designed solely to be exclusionary and dismissive and outright nasty to others who don’t see gender, sex and sexuality in the same way as they do.

    As to the law, I offer no opinion because I don’t have one except that if it gets through I hope it doesn’t end up hurting the people it’s supposed to help, or anyone else for that matter.

  10. Ruglonian says:

    Thank you Stu for highlighting this – as you know some of us have been having quite a debate about the Scottish Government’s proposals (link to the consultation may be a handy inclusion for the article) on twitter.

    Never in my life have I seen such opposition/intolerance to a topic – not to any specific point of view, but to the mere fact that we are talking at all!

  11. mogabee says:

    Thanks for this. Tried really hard to understand all the permutations of this proposed change but really it’s quite simple…if you’re a woman!

    I was always of the opinion that women’s spaces were sacrosanct especially after so much fighting for equality, but bloody hell, this is a fight we MUST win or all those gains are pointless.

  12. Desimond says:

    Nice to see some MillyTant items finally on Wings!

    One for old Viz readers there.

    Its a world beyond my whole understanding but the comment on maybe the SNP should be concentrating on a bigger singular item rings loudest to me in this whole piece.

    Im selfish I know, but don’t you dare call me that, hate crimes et al!

  13. handclapping says:

    Westminster, the DUP, this and Brexit?

    There is no way that this can workout well 🙁

  14. Macart says:

    Feel an intense migraine just attempting to consider all the points of view.

    Me? I’m a live and let live bod. Life is hard enough already and just getting a meal on the table and keeping a roof over your head is hard enough.

    Basically – What HandandShrimp said.

  15. artyhetty says:

    Oh ffs, this is getting stupid. Looks like some of these people belong in a cult, and are clearly dangerous. How dare they attempt to name or shame or attack women who as you say have fought for women to have equal rights and not be treated like second class citizens. Yet these people want to be elevated to some higher protected status, get lost.

    I don’t want to go into a woman’s loo and see some d**k in there. I avoid ‘unisex’ loos, they can be disgusting, sorry guys.

    I recently had a very bad experience in the street, I won’t say details as it is with the police, but the stranger, person, appeared to be female, but was as far as I know, having looked at photos,male.
    I am sure this is rare, but it happens and perhaps this whole damn stupid and dangerous scenario is giving some people the idea they are above the law.

    As for the football thing, anyone opposing this essential law to minimise and stop violence, is an utter disgrace.

    Not sure what the equality act 2010, states about transgender, but I am sure it says something about people having the right not to be punched by some git who sees themselves as superior to anyone else!

    Looks like 2018 is going to be the year of silly, even more than usual, albeit, a dangerous silly.

  16. mike cassidy says:

    So the bottom line

    Men who want to be classed as women are supporting violence against gay women who don’t find them attractive.

    Male chauvinist piggery in a new form.

    But will this equality legislation also criminalise the attitude expressed in some of the quoted tweets?

  17. Hamish100 says:


    Brent Crude over $67 a barrel.

    I accept the blame on behalf of the snp. Revenue to Scotland $0 or £0. Take your pick

  18. SandyW says:

    It’s a bit of a slippery slope to start selectively editing documents of historical record such as birth certificates. I’d regard them as not belonging to the individual named on them but belonging to the state and society. There are a number of reasons why the government or future generations and researchers might legitimately need accurate records of the sex of people at birth.

  19. artyhetty says:

    Re;Brian Powell@11.51

    It is a divide and rule tactic, if you have folks fighting each other, especially at football matches, which is where probably you have the largest number of people in one place at a time, it can escalate and become, as it did, a huge social and community problem. It also costs loads to police, so win win for the Britnats with their SNP bad at any opportunity.

    The yoons and Britnats have relied on the sectarian divides and fighting for a long time so that Scotland appears less than capable, less than intelligent or peaceful, and therefore in need of a strong arm neighbour to keep things in order, oh aye, like they did in NI. We all know that the opposite is true, the britnats do not want Scotland to be peaceful, and certainly not modern, intelligent and forward looking, not to mention civilised, oh no can’t have that at all!

  20. Clootie says:

    I can understand two categories.
    I can understand three (one undefined/withheld)
    I can understand the same number of categories as the population of the planet. We are all unique
    However numbers like 33 or 77 categories baffle me. I sense it will grow to the line above

    It would have been useful legislation on the Titanic..better than a headscarf 🙂

  21. wull2 says:

    Its a divide and rule tactic.

    I have said most of my life, as long as people don’t intentionally do something to harm me, let them get on with it.

  22. galamcennalath says:

    I feel rather naive and sheltered about all this. Maybe my age!

    If a transexual (definition: a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex) man is allowed to ‘self certificate’ himself as a woman, does that give him the right to behave as a woman under all normal public interaction situations?

    I refer to toilets, changing rooms, saunas, hospital wards, etc etc..

    Is the proposal that a ‘self certificated’ woman, who looks completely male, would have the right to enter what would be traditionally female (in the physical sense) facilities?

    Surely not!?

  23. Arbroath1320 says:

    As a member of the “community” being discused here I’d just like to say that none of those brainfucked deid brain moronic ignorant twats come anywhere near to be a representative of MY “community.”

    People who suffer from Gender Dysphoria go through years and more often than not DECADES of heartache, despair, suicidal thoughts and yes even attempted suicide all because they have no one that they know who can help them to:

    a) understand their medical position
    b) understand their psycological situation
    c) find people who they can turn to for help
    d) find out what can be done about their situation

    Being TG is no easy life especially in the begining, you encounter assaults, abuse, family disowning you etc on almost a daily basis. The LAST thing any TRUE TG person needs, be they male to female or female to male, is for s bunch of thugs pretending to be something they are clearly not standing up and shouting about how “female” they are and how butch they are causre they beat up or threatened to beat someone who was lucky enough to be born in the body that matches what their brain tells them they are.

    As for the actual law that has instigated this discussion I have to admit this is the first I’ve heard about it but there again I do not read any unionist papers and have not seen any of the attrocious batshit twitterstorms going on. As far as what I think all I can say is that I have no problem with checks being in place to ensure that I really am who or what I say I am. However any law that means any Tom, Dick or Hariette can change their gender unchallenged is a step too far for me but hey that’s just me you local Wings nutty brain! 😀

  24. Free Scotland says:

    Trans fat is found in most processed foods containing partially hydrogenated oil, such as crackers … (nuff said)

  25. slackshoe says:

    Feminist indy twitter is about to get triggered, then.

  26. Bob Mack says:

    Eventually all the minority groupings split into smaller and smaller factions, each trying to outdo each other in terms of militancy. It will not end well. You can take that to the bank. Example SIU.

  27. Auld Rock says:

    Think that ‘Gaelstorm’ summed it up vert well, ‘BOLLOCKS’ and as somebody else said above we have more important things to spend our time on.

  28. Bobp says:

    The nutters are truly running the f****ng asylum.

  29. Alan Mackenzie says:

    I’m not convinced that popular opposition, even overwhelming popular opposition, should always count against legislative proposals. Sometimes, our leaders should lead, and do what is right. For examples, just look at Brexit, abortion in Ireland, the destruction of the British social security system, …..

    Whether this legislation comes into that category, I just don’t know; I don’t know enough about it. I suspect nearly all the people participating in the poll didn’t know enough about it either.

    That there are people campaigning for this is understandable. That some have been abusive just seems par for the course these days, with Twitter and so on. Has this campaigning really been that oppressive?

    I think people should take a deep breath here, and take time to consider the implications. Then our MSPs should do what is _right_, not what may merely be popular at the moment.

  30. Naefearty says:

    For those of you saying/thinking you jus don’t know enough about this issue, there is a talk next week in Glasgow.
    Lime all the other talks that have been organised, the organisers are not able to announce the venue yet as whenever that becomes publicly available, venues are swamped by so-called “trans activists” with threats. Yes. This really is the issue that dare not be spoken of openly. Yet not a peep from our politicians.

  31. Capella says:

    AFAIK it is easy to assign gender at birth according to straightforward physical characteristics. If people want to behave differently to ascribed social roles then what is wrong with that?
    But demanding the rest of us accept anyone’s self definition, however ridiculous, is unworkable.

    BTW I’m Princess Zelda from the planet Zog and demand tribute from my adoring earthling serfs.

    I’m sure our politicians will defer this one so that some research can be carried out.

  32. Liz g says:

    I am pretty confused by this as well…and that would have to be my starting point.
    Government legislation on ANY subject should be well thought out no matter how long it takes,obviously unless it’s an absolute emergency.
    Which I don’t think this is.
    We pay them to do that!
    One of the reasons not to rush to implement a new set of laws is that we all understand them.
    For me and by the sound of it many other’s this Legislation is no very clear,either in what it is ment to achieve or in how I could be actually acting against the law.
    So unless and until the government can,and do make it generally understandable to Jock & Jean public they should not be going ahead with it.

    Having said that, which I would say applied to any new legislation across the board.
    I would have said this gender stuff should be approached from the opposite direction.
    Why does any government need to be identifying gender so much in the first place??
    Mibbi they should be looking at discontinuing the,(to my mind intrusive) practice of askin for a gender declaration at every turn.
    What difference does it make for…
    Social Security
    Gym membership
    Credit Card’s
    The bank
    The list is almost endless.
    In would be mair in their line if they took a good look at where having to identity a gender was absolutely necessary first.
    Decouple all of us from having to make that declaration to the state, makin us ALL just citizens ….then… look at if there are any circumstances in which the state needed told yer business.
    Currently the only thing that I can think of is Prisons other than that aiming for a society that makes gender irrelevant, would be a better way forward.
    We are already halfway there with equal marriage and adoption, so keeping it simple would I think be much better!

  33. ahundredthidiot says:

    Canada has recently been through the mill – maybe look up Jordan Peterson on Youtube, it’s quite interesting where this sort of shit can lead.

  34. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not a TERF, as my aim is an open, inclusive and tolerant society. I’m a bit old fashioned though and still live in the world of biology, not subjective political correctness.

    I might claim to be a woman but my brain is shaped differently to a woman’s, so I think and experience the world differently. I’m not sure what hormone therapy can achieve in that respect. 😉

    Critical Cultural Approaches to Gender and Sex

    ….Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak’s work has articulated Gramsci’s theory of hegemony with postcolonial theories in order to consider the experiences of populations that she calls subaltern. Spivak’s work called attention to the voices and experiences of people—and women, in particular—whom the logics and practices of colonialism and the hegemony of Eurocentric culture excluded. Given the centrality of language to the formation of subjectivity, Spivak has argued for a more nuanced understanding of the experiences of people who were marginalized or oppressed by imperializing forces that often compelled them to speak not their own language but that of their colonizers. Relatedly, emphasis on transnational feminism has called for cultural critics to attend to the ways that the politics of gender are shaped by not only local processes but global ones as well.

    Some scholars have attempted to move beyond the language of intersectionality to conceive of the complicated interrelationships between various categories of identity. These categories do not merely intersect with one another; they may shape and be shaped by one another, one category helping to constitute another. For example, a number of feminist and queer scholars have argued that the hegemony of heterosexuality has impacted cultural ideas about gender and sex. The two-sex model, which assumes that there are two natural, biologically determined sexes (male or female) cannot be extricated from heteronormativity, or the presumption that heterosexuality is the norm. The naturalization of the two-sex model not only reinforces the hegemony of heterosexuality but also places those who identify or are identified as cisgender—having one’s self-identified gender correspond with one’s assigned sex—in positions of privilege over those people who identify or are identified as transgender.

    Gender normativity may also contribute to what some scholars have called homonormativity, referencing the privilege afforded to cisgender (not to mention white and middle class) gay-identifying people. Both cisnormativity and transphobia have gained increased attention in recent scholarly work, and queer scholars have attempted to disrupt the presumed continuity between sex, gender, and desire, arguing that the relationship between these nodes of identification may be arbitrary and slippery. Such scholarship has critiqued the two-sex model in favor of more fluid, unstable understandings of gender and sex and has proffered theoretical challenges to the naturalized links between maleness and masculinity, or femaleness and femininity. For example, scholars have argued for an understanding of such categories as female masculinity or male femininity, not as derivations of or deviations from normative gender and sex categories but as identifications in their own right.

    This line of scholarship has also allowed for considerations of the experiences of those who identify as trans and for developing new perspectives for thinking about subjectivity and embodiment. Emerging in a complex relationship with both feminist and queer theories—as well as critical disability studies—the field of transgender studies has aimed to destabilize the presumed linkages between biology, subjectivity, and social roles and to challenge objective epistemological paradigms by emphasizing the importance of subjective, embodied, and experiential forms of knowing….

  35. Effijy says:

    Tory England Fake NHS.

    Astonished at BBC breakfast reporter having a go at Prof Tory Excuse this morning.

    Reports from Senior Staff and would be patients, if anyone could have a look at them. all advise that the NHS is now BUST.

    One chap waited 11 hours sitting on a floor as not only were there not enough beds, but not enough trolleys or even chairs.

    A Junior Doctor, who has just had a derogatory Tory Employment contract foisted upon him wanted to hospitalise the man but there
    are no beds anywhere in the area.

    As his condition deteriorated, he returned for another 15 hours at A & E only to be told “still no beds”.

    Prof Tory has a plan where they will not admit patients turning up for planned operations and treatments, as this is supposed to free up beds?

    Now you, like me, might be thinking that as there are no beds now, so where did they hope to put those patients scheduled for a bed?
    If there is no bed available for anyone, how does sending away a scheduled patient, who doesn’t have a bed, free up a bed????

    Now I suspect the average English Tory voter to fall right out with people who deliberately get ill and die just to give their party a bad press. No, I forgot that there is no Tory Bad Press.

    Without question or doubt people are dying due to the lack of care. That person is you and me, your family, and your friends.

    Do you want to vote for an English Death Sentence for your family

    Keep your eye out for an attack on Scotland’s best performing UK NHS and Shona Robertson, who out performs Hunt by a million Miles.

  36. ronnie anderson says:

    Am Girding ma Loins so’s no further comment .

  37. Mike Lothian says:

    Whilst I don’t like the militant side of this argument, I don’t see any valid reason why you need to have your gender (or sex) on your documents.

    It wasn’t that long ago when bringing about equal marriage would have been entirely against the majority of the public’s will, so I’m not convinced that should really be a reason – as laws surrounding any minority would unlikely to be implemented. That can be seen in both Catalonia and Northern Ireland at the moment.

    Really it shouldn’t matter if someone identifies as male, female, both,neither or any variation in between. That equally goes to clothing too. That of course doesn’t give anyone the right to bully others, the history of bullying and violence towards trans and non-binary people does not excuse that behaviour in reverse.

    Our laws should protect poeple

  38. Alastair says:

    Maybe my age but I come from a time when there were LGB people, easy enough to understand. There were also a very small number of people who were born with physical abnormalities that created gender issues for them and, with support and surgery where appropriate these issues were largely resolved.

    Writing as a “G” person however I have been struggling for some time with references to “the community”. As a young Gay man I only ever came across “the community” when I went to a gay bar or club at the weekend. Indeed I knew people who were friendly in that closed environment but who would ignore me on the street outwith that safe zone, so much for community there then. More recently I and my oldest friend, also a gay man, have been at a loss to understand what our connection is to the much expanded “community” (LGBTIQ+), as within this grouping there are definitions we do not understand, and we wonder why we as gay men are being connected to complex issues we have no knowledge of.

    Who decided I was part of this “community”? Is it simply that there are two human communities, one being the “straight” or heterosexual community, the other being all the other freaks? This doesn’t seem like progress to me, nor does accusing people of facism and advocating violence against those who disagree with a particular view, is that not in itself facism?

    Gender is a straightforward issue, if you have functioning boy bits you are a boy. If you have functioning lady-parts you are a girl. Now I get that there is a grey area sometimes caused by physical issues, sometimes mental issues, but as was always the case those who fall into these categories are very much in a minority, and with the correct support will ultimately take their place in the wider community as either a male or a female.

    There can only be one human community, part of the larger animal community, and different to the bird, bee and aquatic communities.

    See “The last days of Rome” to understand better my perspective.

  39. Edward Freeman says:

    Speaking as a non-heterosexual Scot who grew up when times were very different, and very unpleasant for me and others like me…

    …who am I to argue with someone else’s sense of self? It would be like trying to tell me I am British, not Scottish, only at a far more intimate level.

    Live and let live. Time will weed out the weeds. They are in a very small minority – lots of storms in a very small teacup.

  40. ClanDonald says:

    Any heterosexual predatory creep or paedophile would be able to go “I’m a woman” and then gain access to female changing rooms, wards, refuges and will even be able to conduct medical examinations where a woman has requested a female examiner. If you object you’ll be committing a hate crime.

    We must campaign vigorously against this legislation.

  41. crazycat says:

    @ galamcennalath at 12.55

    Is the proposal that a ‘self certificated’ woman, who looks completely male, would have the right to enter what would be traditionally female (in the physical sense) facilities?

    Yes, that’s exactly what it means.

    To me, it’s self-evident that this is unacceptable, not least because it provides the opportunity for non-trans men to pretend to be so to gain access to changing rooms etc.

  42. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, it’s a sensitive issue perhaps, but with a fairly obvious compromise solution.

    That’s two fields on the passport / driving licence / whatever, one the “official” M/F, and the other an optional two character self-define field allowing 27 * 27 variations, including the blank and A-Z.

    For most of us this would be prepopulated with “M ” or “F “, and the reason for this is so as not to force self-definers to stand out unless they wanted to. The field is filled in anyway, rather than left blank for the non-self-definers.

    Then that field could be self-defined with values of “A ” through to “ZZ” for those who want to, even including the “standard” values “M ” and “F “.

    A bit oif lateral thinking!

  43. Effijy says:

    This Gender issue is really going too far!

    To take it on to the next step, Wimbledon Week will now become Wimbledon 52 weeks.

    You have the Junior Men’s Title
    Junior Women’s Title,
    Men’s Title,
    Women’s Title,
    Men’s Doubles Title,
    Women’s Doubles Title,
    Mixed Men and Woman’s Title,
    Junior Men and Gay Men’s
    Junior Men and Lesbian
    Junior Men and Transgender
    Junior Men and Binary
    Junior Men and Someone who doesn’t wish to say
    Junior Men and someone who isn’t sure what they are
    Junior Men and someone who was something different last week,

    Seriously, you are identified at birth with whatever nature gave you and if you wish to change that in any way, good luck to you.

    I think all civilized people can handle the fact that not everyone fits in one of 2 boxes.

    If not, you are a bigot, or possibly a member of the DUP.

    Men and Gay Man’s

  44. Mike Lothian says:

    I’d also like to point out the Olympics gave up trying to label people male and female based on genetics. Genetics is a lot more complicated than XX and XY chromosomes.

  45. HandandShrimp says:

    Shirley the defining test is whether one gets man flu or not?

  46. Bobp says:

    Clandonald this “law”will come to nothing. Local authorities would be inundated by no win no fee solicitors representing thousands of women who rightly so ,would be making assault claims.

  47. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is a tough one for policy makers but attention to critical realism can help moral determination. It is pretty clear though that the public have a view.

    Critical Realism, Gender and Feminism: Exchanges, Challenges, Synergies

    An increasing number of scholars have become familiar with critical realism, finding it a robust alternative to the poststructuralist perspectives that currently dominate gender studies and feminism. This trend has coincided with an increased interest among feminist theorists in the issues of ontology, materiality and nature, which have always been at the heart of critical realist interventions. However, despite these thematic alignments, and the fact that both critical realism and feminist theory are inherently critical-emancipatory, the critical realist approach continues to occupy a marginal role within both feminist and gender studies debates. Concurrently, the field of critical realism has remained decidedly ‘masculine’ in nature, both in the sense that men dominate it, and in terms of the issues with which critical realists have most commonly concerned themselves. Recent critical realist feminist work, the International Association of Critical Realism’s adoption of a proactive policy to enhance the representation of women in its organs and activities, and the growing critical realist preoccupation (particularly in Bhaskar’s philosophy of metaReality) with historically ‘feminine’ topics such as love, mark a potential shift away from these trends.

    The most important aim of this special issue on Critical Realism, Gender and Feminism is therefore to intensify and refine the conversations between critical realism and feminist theory and gender studies. Our hope is that it will encourage both further critical realist work on feminism and gender, and increased exchanges between critical realism and existing forms of feminist theory and gender studies….

  48. Ken500 says:

    The gender obsession is irrelevant. Totally non descript. It affects about .0001 % of the population at present and isn’t worth the dscussion and obsession currently pre occupied. Just a nonsense. Bring in the Laws will affected minimal % of the population but will make a few people affected happy. Were’s the harm in that. It is just democratic. Why so people get so worked about it on both camps is just unrealistic and counter productive. Silly.

    If the football legislation is changed or something significant is not put in it’s place. The Parties who oppose it will suffer at the ballot box. People in Scotland are heartfelt sick of bigotry and sectarian and violence that consumes the terraces and the streets. In some so called sporting arena. It is just despicable and should not be tolerated in any eventuality.

    Any political party that condones this behaviour will lose support and popularity and will be held to account. No wonder the terraces are empty. Ruining their own industry. Unequal, intolerant, violent drunken, bigitd and racists have nothing to do with sport. Or sporting occasions. Perverts and racist bigots ruining their own indudtry. Breaking the Law. Get a grip.

    Repeal at your peril. Stupidity at it’s worst. Don’t listen to the majority you will suffer at the Ballot box again. Some people never learn.

  49. Petra says:

    I don’t know a great deal about this subject and have been totally taken aback with what I’ve read on here. Horrendous. Is this what’s going on in Scotland right now or does it, the tweets etc, relate in the main to people further afield?

    I do have a great deal of sympathy for individuals who genuinely suffer from gender disphoria but what’s wrong with the status quo? The process that’s already in place? The ‘transitioning’ conditions outlined in this article? If I’m missing something maybe someone more knowledgable than I will enlighten me.

    I don’t really fancy just anyone saying that they’ve now become a woman, at the drop of a hat, and getting access to toilets etc that young children, in particular, frequent, especially as some of these ‘just anyones’ come across as being absolutely disgusting and extremely violent.

    However what I do know is that the Unionist parties at Holyrood are more concerned with scoring points against the SNP in an attempt to discredit them. Serving the Scottish public is the last thing on their minds. It looks as though the SNP feel that they should go along with the majority. They shouldn’t. They should take a step back from this even if it does incur the wrath of a wrathful minority. They should involve the Scottish public as they did with fracking proposals.

    What I’d really like to know is WHO exactly proposed this change initially? Does anyone know?

  50. Lenny Hartley says:

    FFS all this time spent on around 1 in a 100 of the population, would be a lot cheaper to charter a plane and fly all the ones in Scotland to Thailand and they can be what the want there.

  51. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    CameronB: “I’m a bit old fashioned, though, and still live in the world of biology, not subjective political correctness.”

    And I’m the Emperor of Japan.

  52. Ken500 says:

    Those who identify as ‘Gay’ (hope that doesn’t offend anyone) in the population is 1.2%. Realistically it is considered to be more 2% + ? Not a problem. That can be totally accommodated equally. People hide their gender because they are afraid? Enlightenment and openness means more people can live in peace.Without stress or complications. So can other gender or whatever 0.001%. Why do people get so stressed out about this. It is almost irrelevant. Unless people just want a stupid argument. Stupid. It is just a fact of life not all people are born the same. Makes life more exciting. Viva La difference. Every body can be accommodated. What on earth is the problem. That can’t be resolved. Without intransigence. Education is the key. Brave people.

  53. Abulhaq says:

    In the surreal tv show League of Gentlemen there’s a trans character called Babs, hairy and musclely, who has had the operation but subsequently, and to keep abreast of the times, has decided to go ‘gender fluid’. Life imitating art?
    Meanwhile in the real world at your local UK branch of McMafia….

  54. CameronB Brodie says:

    Reluctant Nationalist
    ??????????????????????? 😉

  55. Ken500 says:

    People can be reassured they will be few men trying to get into women’s changing rooms if they try it once. What a total reaction. Do they think people are irrational. This defies any logic. How many men try and get into women’s changing in disguise at present and not be apprehended or bawled out. Do they think women are not aware of their surrounding. Pity any man who tries to access women’s changing without pre authority in disguise or otherwise. Anyway in many establishment sporting or otherwise there are mixed changing rooms. It is not a problem. Everyone is accommodated sensibly. Many swimming pools, sporting establishment already have mixed changing rooms.

  56. CameronB Brodie says:

    WordPress doesn’t support Japanese characters.

    “Pleased to meet you, I’m a banana. 😉

  57. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB –

    Aye. The perils of translation.

    In kanji, Steinbeck’s ‘The Grapes of Wrath’ appears as ‘The Angry Raisins’.


  58. Liz g says:

    Effijy @ 1.56
    I don’t see why it ever had to be that complicated
    If some woman made it thru the tournament and wanted to play Andy Murray for the cup!!! What’s the problem, is that no actual equality?
    It could be argued that having a woman’s and men’s competition is already discriminatory.
    In fact as it stands the men’s final in that particular tournament is always given much more prominence as it is, the winner of the men’s singles in any given year are always proclaimed as THE Wimbledon Champion.
    Why not equalize it and give the woman a go.
    These separate and not quite equal competitions are all a bit Jim Crow anyway are they no?

  59. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Me so solly, Cam. You just supplies me wiv gasrighting.

  60. CameronB Brodie says:

    Reluctant Nationalist
    So you’d have use believe your not a racist dickhead?

  61. Ken500 says:

    Shared changing rooms in many sports centres and swimming pools are certainly not a problem. Everyone is accommodated and catered for. In fact some people get quite chummy. End up having a coffee and a laugh together. Very civilised. Share experiences. Can recommend it. Quite healthy. and relaxing. Spa/Masseur as well, occasionally. Suits some people

  62. Petra says:

    O/ T

    @ Effijy at 1:38pm …. “Keep your eye out for an attack for Scotland’s best performing UK NHS and Shona Robinson, who out performs Hunt by a million miles.”

    BBC news (England) playing the situation down now even although we know that tens of thousands of ops across England have been cancelled and that many seriously ill people are lying God knows where for MANY hours on end. More than anything no mention of how many hospitals are affected. Hunt was interviewed and apologised for the inconvenience. Eh!

    BBC (Scotland) making a meal of the fact that 1 in 5 people aren’t being seen within 4 hours and that Dumfries and Galloway hospital has cancelled non-emergency ops for the time being. Shona Robinson wasn’t interviewed at all, just another Unionist ‘expert’.

    The BBC, in particular Donalda MacKinnon, must think that we all zip up the back. Cut out the propaganda missus.

    And if there are any people out there reading these posts check out the fact that NHS / Social Care England was abolished in 2012 with the objective of privatising it 100%. The Minister of Health in England no longer has responsibility for providing healthcare. With Brexit the NHS in Scotland will be TOTALLY decimated between losing EU staff, continual so-called austerity cuts and trade deals made by the Tories and TTIP Trump. Something the BBC won’t be informing you about anytime soon. Waken up folks before it’s too late.

  63. ahundredthidiot says:

    I was sitting there thinking about Diversity…..

    ….then I thought ‘f*ck it’

  64. gerry parker says:

    HandandShrimp at 1:57pm

    Or Burd flu?

  65. galamcennalath says:


    “Sixty per cent of pupils now stay on until the sixth form”

    Wow, 60% of Scottish pupils head off to complete their schooling in England, according to the Herald.

  66. CameronB Brodie says:

    I might do little more than cut and paste but at leaste I try to be efficient. 😉

    Prejudice and Discrimination

    The Difference Between Prejudice and Discrimination

    A prejudiced person may not act on their attitude. Therefore, someone can be prejudiced towards a certain group but not discriminate against them. Also, prejudice includes all three components of an attitude (affective, behavioral and cognitive), whereas discrimination just involves behavior.

    There are four main explanations of prejudice and discrimination:

    1. Authoritarian Personality

    2. Realistic Conflict Theory – Robbers Cave

    3. Stereotyping

    4. Social identity Theory

    Conformity could also be used as an explanation of prejudice if you get stuck writing a psychology essay (see below).

  67. Liz g says:

    Ken 500 @ 2.30
    A good point if facilities are designed (surely not beyond the wit of “man”) to accommodate everyone decently then it’s no a problem that government needs to involve the citizens in?
    The legislation should be on the standards that business needs to maintain in and around it’s facilities.
    I have heard it said that Woman have fought hard to create spaces for them and why is it them that has to give them up.
    Which is a fair comment….. But I think that personal space is far more invaded sitting next to some creep on a plane
    (and we put up with that), rather than using a sensitivity designed changing room at the swimming.
    As I said I can’t see why we are not moving more in the opposite direction.
    Regardless of how anyone lives,loves or dressed humans on the outside only come in two versions and it’s surely no that difficult to allow any of the two versions any amount of privacy and autonomy they want in society but also at no disadvantage to how anyone wants to get on with their own life’s.
    The answer it seem to me is that the state should stop labeling people as anything other than people,and act only to ensure that everyone is treated equally.

  68. BLMac says:

    What puzzles me is why it is alright to punch someone who does not find you attractive.

    As a bald straight male with a potbelly, I’d have to spend my entire day engaged in pugilism. I am puzzled as to how that would increase my attractiveness.

  69. Gavin says:

    Lots to say, but not really the best place for a lot of it.

    For the sake of accuracy though, regarding the third to last paragraph:

    Transgender =/= non-heterosexual. Whether you accept someone’s gender or not, if someone exclusively finds men sexually attractive then they’re homosexual or heterosexual depending on whether they’re a man or a woman. Someone might misgender, but that wouldn’t affect how they define hetero/homosexuality, only whether they correctly identified the subject.

    The portion in the poll who come under other is probably more likely to include transgender people who don’t identify themselves as male or female, for whatever reason, but it would be incorrect to view that subsection of the sample as covering all transgender people.

  70. Footsoldier says:

    If Stu is correct in saying a majority of the public don’t want this legislation and I agree I do not think they do, why are the SNP pursuing it? It is yet another thing to alienate the public like the Named Person scheme.

    If these sort of schemes are good but divisive, deal with them once we have independence. Meantime concentrate on indy and tangible benefits for voters. Some pragmatism is required here.

  71. Davie Park says:

    Here’s a mad notion: As far as women’s toilets are concerned, we could have (as we do now) one external door marked Women / female which could then split two ways: one to the Trans toilets, another to ‘biological female’ toilets. So no issue with trans toilets being targeted by macho troglodytes, AND a ‘female only’ space is retained.
    As I said, a MAD notion – but it could come to that yet.

  72. I freely admit, I haven’t a clue about any of this.
    Nor do I want to spend time going into it in any great detail.
    People are dying because of Ruth Davidson’s fascist policies.
    I don’t give a wood louse’s shit what gender you are.
    Marry your hot water bottle for all I care.
    260,000 kids in Scotland are being branded losers, a generic term to describe a Professor Two Jobs WATP Tompkin’s policy driven Underclass, branded to fail and be slaves from cradle to tragically early grave at birth.
    I get a sense that this is yet another well fed middle class group of hedonists clogging up Parliament’s business.
    As for Kelly and Murdo Fraser and the Good Prof, and the Dead Tree Scrolls, they promote religious bigotry through whipping the Two Tribes, Celtic and Rangers knucleheads into fevered hatred and bigotry.
    Hatred sells ‘papers and garners the votes of the trogs for hapless intellectually numbed Yoon Gravy Trainers.

    I’m 70, white, male, married, a father, and a pensioner.
    I have arrived here mostly by an accident of birth and the culture into which I was born.

    I haven’t had it easy by any means, but I’m still standing, just.
    I admit to having little interest in this gender debate, and I have a sense that I am not alone.
    As for Celtic Rangers and a gaggle of List MSPs who are coining it in for doing nothing, I would pee on them if they were on fire.

  73. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Cam

    I tried to find the ‘ching chong chinaman pulled the wrong tit’ bit from BBC’s Extras on youtube, but it’s gone, *poof*, like it never happened. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

  74. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, toilets are a problem, and basically speaking there are two physical needs. The one to sit down in comfort on a dry seat, and the other to stand up with an erratic aim. Plus the need to accomodate the disabled.

    It’s enough of a problem for the likes of small cafes as it is, one in the Highlands was told they needed 5 toilets in a small cafe, and it was only after quite a long time they managed to reach someone with half a brain and get it down to 2, which cater for all current needs.

    Perhaps the acid test of which sex people are is, do they pass water standing up or sitting down?

  75. Derek Rogers says:

    Your take-away statistic here is that Yessers are more accepting of the legislation than Noers are by two to one, and Remainers are more accepting of it by two to one than Leavers are. More inclusive, more tolerant, better all round.

  76. Dr Jim says:

    Used to be people wanted to be included in an inclusive society, now they seem to want to be exclusive within the inclusive society so much so they’re prepared to be militant about it
    Up till now i’ve been considered what you might call ordinary but with the introduction of so many new genders and identities for people I might be something I don’t even know about yet which might make me demand some exclusivity within the inclusive society

    I could be a special case but I’d need an expert to advise me on that because I’m fast becoming, as an ordinary person a possible minority and because growing up at my age there were never any classes or education on the subject of being anything else other than a person

    I suppose I’ll just have to press on being a person until somebody more skilled than me can tell me I’m not what I thought I was so’s I can claim to be something else as yet unknown

    Does not knowing make me exclusively different so I can be included because if so I demand my rights…… to something….I think

  77. Jamie says:

    I think if the law is passed it will cause a lot of issues. Firstly it is already bad enough when I go to the gym and there are guys walking about with there wangers oot proudly strutting about the changing room with out a care, trust me none are ever Adonis looking except in their own heid. On the upside women will now share my pain, but on the downside I’m not so cruel that I would want to impose such punishment. This madness should be stopped before it’s too late.

  78. Fireproofjim says:

    A tiny militant and self important minority are creating a lot of hot air which politically correct politicians are terrified to address for fear of being called bigots.
    Otherwise let’s get back to the real world and don’t waste time which could be better spent on matters which concern the other 99.999% of Scots.

  79. Big Jock says:

    I am forced to have British on my passport. No -one seems to care about my identity. Oops sorry that it is a reserved matter.

  80. Confused says:

    Stu – did you ever see that Woody Allen skit where he is covered in protective padding and goes down to Harlem and shouts “niggers!” … that’s you, that is
    – cue the screeching
    – in amerikuh, they would call you an “uber-shitlord”
    – in japan … O Sensei

    Or is this a machiavellian tactic to drive so much traffic to your blog that you become Political Blog #1?

    I for one look forward to the coming phallocentric cockocracy in an independent scotland – and if we don’t get it, then at least we can all use the womens loos – they are always much cleaner than the mens anyway

  81. Street Andrew says:

    I think I might take a while to get my head round this.

    There seems to be a lot of anger being generated and I rather wonder what it’s a substitute for. I’m sure most of it is being wrongly targeted, but I can’t see quite by whom or why.

    I can’t help wondering how long I can get away with ignoring the issue in the hope that it will either ‘get sorted’ or go away.

    Does that sound uncaring? If so I apologise. I don’t understand.

  82. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Hear, Hear @Jack Collatin says at 3:38 pm

    “Nor do I want to spend time going into it in any great detail.
    People are dying because of Ruth Davidson’s fascist policies.
    I don’t give a wood louse’s shit what gender you are.”

    That’s the rub folks.

    Don’t look at squirrels, concentrate on the big picture.

    People are dying needlessly, others are living in poverty caused by self-serving hypocrites and the 1% are eroding our quality of life and destroying our society every day.

  83. Adam Davidson says:

    Why does anyone care what someone else wants to define themselves as? I don’t understand all the categories, labels etc but if it makes someone feel better to redifine themselves then go for it.

    I love that the Scottish Government is also taking this on. Once again they prove they are willing to do what seems right even if a large number of voters will hate it. That is the kind of country I want to live in, A decent one that tried to do our best for everyone.

  84. Liz g says:

    Big Jock @ 4.35
    And Big Jock wins the Internet….
    Brilliant comment Big Jock

  85. galamcennalath says:

    “womens loos – they are always much cleaner than the mens anyway”

    … I wouldn’t know. Perhaps that’s because I am not Confused 😉

  86. scav says:

    Disappointed in this article, complete with its carefully selected unpleasant quotes (rather a one-sided selection, given that you could find vicious arseholes attacking trans people with very little effort).

    Also, cis is not in any way a dismissive term. It’s a completely neutral distinction from trans, and it means only “identify as same gender you were given”. Getting that wrong was needless, and poor work compared to your usual standards of fact-checking.

    Self-identification of gender is incredibly harmless, and it’s not wasting anyone’s time or resources just to say “OK, fine, be yourself whether I understand your idea of self or not”.

    Let people choose freely whether to have M, F or X on their passport and move on. What is the big fucking panic about it?

  87. A. Brown says:

    Well done Wings! I cant understand why this bill is even being considered –

  88. Effijy says:

    I wonder if under the freedom of information act, as permenatly used by the BBC,
    We could establish just how many 100’s of thousands of operations were cancelled in
    England last year, which will include the ones caught up in the Junior Doctor’s strike initiated
    By Mr Hunt.

    The figures for the first 3 months would also be great to capture.
    I’m sure that will hit the 10’s of thousands at least.

    The usual Tory plan will come out soon, an extra £2 Million for the NHS
    which works out around 3 Pence per person.
    A bit like having an extra cotton ball for a Heart Transplant.

    This is wholesale murder by neglect from Westminster?

  89. yesindyref2 says:

    @scav “Let people choose freely whether to have M, F or X on their passport and move on.

    Actually perhaps both “sides” are missing a point here, why have sex on the passport anyway? Is it security, in which case how do they deal with unisex clothing and trends anyway, or is it perhaps some hangover from a time of total non sex equality, where females on their own were perhaps “suspect” or to be treated in a different and less equal way, perhaps even as “property”?

    From the actual passport point of view, perhaps everybody is missing the point in an era where many countries have sex equality laws.

    There are practical and health reasons for correct gender identification of course, and that is a different issue.

  90. Free Scotland says:

    Ahhm gonnae tell yeez, so ah ahm, the Lady in Red, a.k.a. Danielle (Dave) Muscato, is wan pure wee stunner.

  91. Hamish100 says:


    On the Day the English NHS has had to cancel non essential operations for over a month not one tory has apologised to the Scottish Government for performing better nor Labour for being better thsn Wales.

    private hospitals should be charged for offloading some of their patients to the NHS when they get it wrong.

  92. mike cassidy says:

    Who said the simple test for gender was whether you could pee out of the window of a moving train?

    In my head it was Roddy McMillan in “The View From Daniel Pike”. (There’s one for the old folks – a Scottish Philip Marlow tv series)

    But I’m sure it has to be someone else.

  93. schrodingers cat says:

    galamcennalath says:
    3 January, 2018 at 4:48 pm

    “womens loos – they are always much cleaner than the mens anyway”

    my wife just said the same thing,
    perhaps the solution is we just have one type of toilet, no urinals, just cubicals and wash hand basins and ensure they are kept clean?
    that way the only communal activity is washing your hands??

  94. Albert Herring says:

    Ah, it all makes sense now.

    My dear wife often complains that some women, when using public toilets, appear to “hover” above the pan while taking a pish, but without bothering to lift the seat.

    This results in said seat, and even the surrounding floor, being most unpleasantly covered in pee.

    Turns out it was a trans bloke all along!

  95. Bob Mack says:

    Writing songs just got much harder.

    “I’m strictly a female, female
    And my future I hope will be
    In the arms of a brave and free male
    Who’ll enjoy being a guy
    Having a girl like me.

    Would this song now be illegal without accounting for numerous other permutations of gender/ sexual identity?

  96. Clootie says:

    @Free Scotland 5:03

    I was going to comment when I realised I didn’t know which pronoun to use anymore!!!

  97. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    There is madness about. Respect everyone, life is so desperately short there are more important things to worry about…like the English NHS for example.

    I think we should crowd fund to raise money for the deluge of English refugees who will be forced North due to the collapse of the regime.

    Have you seen the price of tents?

    Will we need to have different tents for different genders?

  98. I note Windsor Tory Council plans to drive their homeless from the town in May so that one of the most expensive Social Security claimants can have his fairy tale wedding uncluttered by the sight of Empire 2 poverty raining on his parade.
    I am too old, otherwise I’d use the Royals yet again rubbing our faces in it as one of this crucial year’s Scottish Independence Civil Disobedience events.
    Oh. that some of our younger brethren would organise a sleep out in Windsor over the Wedding festivities.
    Half a million Scots /Republicans gathering with saltire sleeping bags would send a message, no?
    It’s May. it’ll be warm enough.
    It’s time that Jock MacPublic let the Windsor Family scroungers know what we think of monarchy, and the invented privilege of Royalty and their Lairds in 21st Century Scotland.
    Perhaps I’ll get a knock on the door at 4 in the morning.

  99. K1 says:

    The ‘panic’, what ‘panic’…this is a complex issue and most of us have never had to ‘deal’ with thinking too much about our ‘labels’…don’t misunderstand me when I say this, we genuinely just grow up and be what and who we are.

    The only time the problem of our identity becomes an issue is when society is so tightly woven around the ‘norm’ that we find ourselves castigated or othered for not ‘fitting’ into that ‘categorisation’, if in fact we simply don’t. I do recall early sociology material where ‘homosexuality’ was classified as a ‘perversion’, a sub group thereof etc.

    This then becomes problematic for those who are in that sub group?

    Now how is this any different an issue from being gay for example?

    The notion of gay men as peadophile’s was a very common ‘myth’ and the very idea of a gay man ‘being around children’ was one of the unspoken fears that underpinned ‘accepted’ and common everyday homophobia?

    If anyone can recall when the first or second big brother series aired, that myth was aired on live tv, I believe one of the contestants challenged it and it made a big splash, if memory serves George Michael was very vocal in thanking that woman for stating the absurdity of such widely held prejudices around being a gay man?

    We all know the reality…safe spaces? Churches, all denominations, children’s homes, private and public schools, the premises of the BBC et al…all over the UK and the world have been ‘breached’ not by ‘gays’ or ‘trans’ but by others with nice ‘labels’, ‘safe labels’ like ‘teachers’ and ‘priests’ and ‘entertainment stars’?

    Yes I can also see the ‘how far can we go’ argument in all of this too. I don’t know how far we can go. As far as the human imagination takes us I suppose.

    But what I think I’m attempting to say rather hamfistedly…is that doctors and nuns and teachers and politicians and the ‘respectable institutions’ of which they are and have been a part of, which were supposed to be so called ‘safe spaces’ for women and children and all of us have been breached a thousand times by predators who found a way to predate within the ‘norm’ and the shock and horror of the crimes that have been committed for centuries right up till the present are still being uncovered and dealt with.

    It is absurd to believe that a trans person is somehow ‘more’ likely to be ‘threatening’, it is absurd to believe that what you ‘identify’ as is the ‘measure’ of your character?

    So the attempt to reduce the infinite number of possible permutations that a human being can play around with in determining their ‘place’ within any given society should not be limited.

    The policy aspect of how to accommodate that in the legislative sense is the nightmare Imo.

    These ‘categories’ need to be kept separate in discussing and finding our way through these rather complex identity issues and that will be our government’s biggest challenge. I commend them for even considering taking this on. But I have great faith that of course they will get backlash on this…and that ways will be found to address the concerns of those being consulted before anything is committed to legislation.

  100. sera says:

    The Gender Recognition Act will make the lives of transgender people easier, as similar laws in other countries (e.g. Malta, Argentina) have done. It will not affect the rest of us one jot.

    Also: trans people weren’t just invented last week. They’re been around, in society, forever. Nothing is going to change.

  101. schrodingers cat says:

    old joke

    man walks down the street wearing a pink sued welly boot over his head and is stopped by another guy who laughingly asks, “why are you wearing a pink sued welly boot over your head”
    the man replies, “I always wear a pink sued welly boot over my head on a wednesday”
    the guy says, “but its thursday”
    the man replies, ” argh, what a fool i must look” !!!!

    point being, why should I care how people define themselves, or what they wear or do in their own homes? how is it any of my business?
    I cant see a problem with this

  102. Bob Mack says:

    @Ken 500,

    Nobody is saying a trans individual is more threatening, but what we are saying is that it gives more freedom to access of woman/ girl only spaces. Same applies to men/youth .

  103. Peter Macbeastie says:

    I have always found this one just a bit weird.

    I don’t care what people define themselves as. I give not a solitary shit if you want to be gay, bi, straight, or whatever. Your body, your choice/ compulsion, whatever. I don’t care. Marry the person you love, regardless of gender; I have no problem at all with that.

    But this ‘you must identify me by my chosen gender,’ that’s on the other side of my WTF meter.

    See, gender whether people like it or not is an anthropological thing. You have two. They’re male and female. Oh, you can identify yourself as whatever the hell you like but that’s the inescapable bottom line. Scientifically, it matters not a solitary fuck what you THINK you are; you are male, or you are female.

    I have no idea which fool thought this really needed official amendment, but it’s on the other side of my otherwise totally pro LGBT position.

    Be whatever you want to be, but make it totally official based on whatever you think you are? Too much, seriously, just a tad.

    Plus I would wonder how much this costs to implement, because if it’s over fifty quid it’s getting expensive.

  104. schrodingers cat says:

    But this ‘you must identify me by my chosen gender,’ that’s on the other side of my WTF meter.

    i know many women who prefer to be known by the male equivelant of their name, eg, jaqueline, jack, wilma as bill etc, (nb, not lgbt people) this is quite common

    I initially found it a bit odd but i got used to it and i repeat, it isnt any of my business what people call themselves. I cant see why you or anyone else would care? whats the big deal?

  105. K1 says:

    I think I made a few more nuanced points than that Bob. 😉

  106. Craig P says:

    Depressing stuff, but how is the nuttiness and intolerance on display by multi-gendered Twitter any different from normal Twitter?

    What I am getting at is maybe politicians have been swayed by a Twitter campaign.

  107. ronnie anderson says:

    Ah need tae get this aff ma chest ( they strap oan mammaries ) were rubbing ma nipples raw an suckin they smoothes urnae helpin .

  108. Random Man says:

    More psychotic, extremist, American-imported drivel. What a waste of parliamentary time, for vapid narcissist minorities who like bullying everybody else. I bear minorities no ill harm. But the First Minister has partly helped this crap along, with her obsessing over minority rights. They now rule the rest of us with their mentally unbalanced, childish, entitled-feeling Yankee dross. Great stuff. I’m off to punch a TERF now. Apparently it’s what our minority betters command and demand of us.

  109. Petra says:

    @ Jockanese Wind Talker at 4:45pm …….. “Don’t look at squirrels concentrate on the big picture.”

    That’s the thing though JWT. What IS the big picture here? The politicians in Scotland who focus on trying to prevent people from dying needlessly, and so on, are the SNP, imo. In other words people like me, and you I presume, want to see them remain in power to protect all vulnerable people from the Tories, et al. If this extremely unpopular Law gets passed let’s guess who will be to blame. Not the person from the political party that pushed for the changes to be implemented, no doubt. It’ll be SNP Baad all the way with no mention of Unionist parties supporting it. We saw what the media did with the Named Person Policy. This one will undermine SNP support too and I reckon that’s what this is all about. The big picture. Additionally let’s ask ourselves what’s wrong with the status quo, that is individuals complying with the conditions currently required.



    Does anyone on here have a list or map of all Scottish oil fields that are still in operation?


    ITV news – NHS. The situation is like a battlefield in Wales, crisis in NIreland with people lying on floors and thousands of ops cancelled in England. Scotland’s not meeting its targets, ops cancelled and having to use administrative staff to help out. Cleaners etc also supporting nurses with non-medical issues.

    They then show you the inside of a Scottish hospital. Place spotless, very few people around and one individual being transported on a wheelchair. All calm and collected with no queues in a corridor or people lying on floors. But hey, surprise surprise. One man was questioned and said he’d just had a by-pass operation. In and out within a few days. No over waiting and delighted with the service. I’m not saying that our SNHS isn’t facing challenges especially as attendance figures are up by 20% on last year. but I just wish they’d start quoting valid facts / statistics for all parts of the UK.

  110. ronnie anderson says:

    As I told Anne Mclaughlin Mp as was i would start up a Hermaphrodite party when she said mitch & myself we were not welcome to meet Nicola at the squinty bridge photo call .

  111. Sinky says:

    Channel Four news claiming Scotland and Wales as bad as England’s NHS crisis without any factual information. How about media telling us how many A & E drink related patients there is waiting at this time of year.
    Also STV at it when they allow RMT rail union guy to slag Scottish Government on air without any comeback.

  112. Terry says:

    I have a couple of friends who are trans gender. But what defines them most is they are passionate about life and their social causes – and not gender. However the likes of germaine Greer slagging then off is ridiculous. They are lovely women and give a lot to their communities.

    But after reading the post above I despair. It’s just getting daft. It’s the equivalent of eg a Caucasian defining themselves as Asian – just cos they feel like it. This extreme is utter bollocks.

  113. Old Pete says:

    Kristy Blackman story in the Herald and other papers implies she feels Scottish voters are not remotely interested in Scottish Independence ?
    The opposition parties have not unsurprisingly jumped on these comments to support their views on the Union.
    Is the story bogus ? has the comments been taken out of context ? or is Kirsty been advised mistakenly to give such an `own goal` ? or is she stupid ?
    I think the SNP need to get everyone versed up to be positive about Independence, some comments of late by some MPs might make you wonder.

  114. Bob Mack says:


    Sorry, I was actually replying to Ken500. Oops.

  115. Ruby says:

    Old Pete says:
    3 January, 2018 at 7:18 pm
    Kristy Blackman story in the Herald and other papers implies she feels Scottish voters are not remotely interested in Scottish Independence ?

    Ruby replies

    You should read the original article in The Guardian and not pay too much attention to anything Tom Gordon writes.

  116. Maren says:

    Scotland has incredibly good provision for transgender people – just one appointment to get access to non-invasive treatment, several to get access to invasive treatment – all free on the NHS (apart from breast surgery, that is classified as cosmetic and must be applied for). We even have a clinic for transgender kids in Glasgow now. And waiting list targets to make sure it doesn’t take ages to get an appointment.

    So if you are transgender, and if you are ready to look for medical help to live as your preferred gender, you can. If you need to have this gender legally accepted for any reason, yes, you do have to jump through some hoops (get a medical diagnosis, start treatment, live as your preferred gender for two years). From what I’ve seen, almost all who go down that road are successful.

    I’m now asking myself who would this new law help? What are they not willing to do that they need the right to self-certify? And haven’t we seen with the PFI schools that self-certification is rarely a good idea? I understand that there are countries where accessing treatment is difficult or prohibitively expensive, so it’s almost impossible to fulfill these criteria, but as I said, that’s not the case here.

    We are therefore proposing to erode women’s rights to safe spaces to accommodate a minority of a minority – those who can’t or don’t want to get certified. Half the population is having their lives attacked by a vocal and incredibly successful group of activists who are attacking women’s rights to superimpose the rights of <0.1% of the population (and there seem to be no trans men engaged in this from what I can see – for probably quite obvious reasons).

    Think I'm overreacting? One of Stu's links is an article pointing out that these trans activists consider "pregnant woman" to be a trans-phobic word. And they are so vocal and so successful that midwives associations in the UK and US are changing their vocabulary to speak of "pregnant people" or "birthing individuals" instead of women. This may be an unimportant starting point, but we've seen it before: first groups of people are edited out of the language, then discriminated against in other ways.


    The problem is that this legislation is going beyond live and let live issues. My mum used to run a shelter for abused women and their kids. The address was kept secret and separate even in her accounting for the rest of her charity. No one was given the address, women and their kids were taken there after being assured that they could not be found by their abusers. Absolutely no men allowed, not even friendly family members (it happened once that the address got out thanks to a journalist and an abuser found it with the predicted consequences. The whole shelter had to get moved after that).

    These women and kids are traumatised, some of them severely, often so much so that they are terrified of ANY man. They get a lot of help, incl therapy, to allow them to understand that their abuser is an exception, an aberration of his sex and that the vast majority of men are not abusers. But that takes time and while they heal, they are given a safe haven. When they return to their lives, they depend on women's only spaces to feel safe.

    This safe space is in danger if this legislation is enacted. Right now a shelter manager has the discretion to bar even a legally certified trans woman if they deem it necessary and maybe this will stay in place for now, but I don't think these trans activists will be satisfied with being given 95% of access. And trying to push someone out of the toilets or changing rooms won't happen if – as suggested – saying "you're clearly a man" is considered hate speech (punishable by law).

    Same with patients asking for a same-sex medical practioners, with women's wards in hospitals and so on.

    And if you can self-certify as a woman, there's nothing stopping you to self-certify back to being a man either. If you make it easy enough that people can abuse the system without sacrifice, it's a certainty that there will be people who do so.

  117. heedtracker says:

    Its fine. Why should people not be able to decide what sex they are? They will still be living in the same legal and criminal system we all do.

    I’ve been dragged into more than my fair share of women’s changing rooms to be asked if my bum looks big in this.

    It never does:D

  118. Marcia says:


    Not what I heard.

  119. frogesque says:

    Ok, have I got this right?

    Every pub, club, café, church and roadside milkbar will need 70+ lavvies, all disabled friendly, to cope with the possible demands of less than 1% of the population.

    If so, that’s an awful lot of bog paper.

  120. @Old Pete,

    think it was from interview in the stinkin yoon guardian,(so veracity not confirmed)

    Scottish National Party Member of UK Parliament said,

    “I don’t think most folk in their daily lives give two hoots about whether Scotland is a member of the union.

    The constitutional issues are not the biggest concern for an awful lot of people,

    and, in fact, I very rarely talk about Scottish independence in the chamber, because I talk about things that matter to the people of Aberdeen.”

    why the f’ck talk to these MSM vermin,

    and if yer no interested in independence find another party,

    it`s through independence we can free our most vulnerable citizens from the abomination of austerity.

  121. frogesque says:

    0.1%, not 1%

  122. CameronB Brodie says:

    Reluctant Nationalist
    My outlook is based on bio-medical science. Did you think is was simply being politically correct?

    The Genetics of Sex Differences in Brain and Behavior

    Aspects of Gender Identity Development: Searching for an Explanation in the Brain

    Gender Identity Is in the Brain. What Does This Tell Us?

  123. Ruby says:

    I would like people to be defined by who they are sexually attracted to. That would save a lot of confusion and punch ups if you waken up in the morning and find that your woman has a penis or your boyfriend only has a dildo.

    WWV – Woman with vagina
    WWP – Woman with penis
    HMWP -Heterosexual Man with penis
    GMWP -Gay man with penis
    GWWD – Gay Woman with dildo
    GWWV – Gay woman with vagina.

    I’m suggesting this for others as my category would be PI. = Past It. Well at least I think I am as it’s been a long time due to recurring headaches. 🙂

  124. Free Scotland says:

    Ruby, you are a gem!

  125. Ian Foulds says:

    Well said Jack Collatin at 3.38pm.

    Would you really p*** on them if they were on fire? Very humanitarian!

  126. mike cassidy says:

    Herald’s distortion of Kirsty Blackman dealt with here.

  127. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    You just beat me to it, mike cassidy!


  128. Ruby says:

    Kirsty Blackman article.

    The journalist was trying to force her to talk about independence.

    She could have given a better answer but I reckon no matter what she said it would have been twisted by the Unionist press. ie More interested in Independence than solving the everyday problems of her constituents.

  129. jfngw says:

    What the MSM fail to report, if the number of people attending A&E has increased by 20% then more people have been seen within the 4 hours than in 2016.

    The % for 2016 was about 93% from gov website, 83% for 2017. If 100k were treated (just example figure, actual number is not important) in 2016 then 120k would be seen in 2017. So 93k (2016) were seen within 4 hours, 99K would have been seen in 2017 within the 4 hours.

    Well done NHS staff.

    As for the article, you are what you were born, I may think I want to be a duck but I never can be. This legislation would be damaging to women’s rights and I could not vote for a party supporting this.

  130. K1 says:

    Well it’s not been led by a twitter campaign or a bunch of aggressive bots for all we know on twitter banging on about it:

    ‘3.08. In 2006, the non-binding Yogyakarta Principles were agreed by a wide-ranging group of human rights law experts, representatives of non- governmental organisations and others.
    They set out existing international human rights law and principles, as the authors believe they should be applied to the treatment of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.

    Principle 3 asks countries to:

    “take all necessary … measures to ensure that procedures exist whereby all State-issued identity papers which indicate a person’s gender/sex including birth certificates … reflect the person’s profound self-defined gender identity” and to

    “ensure that such procedures are efficient, fair and non-discriminatory, and respect the dignity and privacy of the person concerned”.

    3.09. In 2015, Resolution 2048 of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (Resolution 2048) expressed concerns that requiring someone seeking legal recognition of their acquired gender to have been medically treated or diagnosed is a breach of their right to respect for their private life under Article 8 of the ECHR. The resolution calls on all Member States to:

    “develop quick, transparent and accessible procedures, based on self- determination, for changing the name and registered sex of transgender people on birth certificates, identity cards … and other similar documents”

    3.10. The view of the Scottish Government is that the 2004 Act requirements are unnecessarily intrusive and do not reflect the best practice now embodied in the Yogyakarta Principles and Resolution 2048.’

    Scots Gov have looked at other country’s legislation on this matter and have outlined those types of current practices in their consultation document. Their own ‘initial’ view is:

    Initial view of the Scottish Government

    3.26. The Scottish Government considers that, subject to views expressed during this consultation, Scotland should adopt a self-declaration system for legal gender recognition. This would mean that applicants under a Scottish system would not have to demonstrate a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or that they had lived for a period in their acquired gender. This would align Scotland with the best international practice demonstrated in countries who have already successfully adopted self-declaration systems. We would be ensuring our compliance with Resolution 2048. And the arrangements would be less intrusive and onerous from the perspective of applicants.’

    They have the consultation paper online. Anyone can add there voice to this consultation if they feel strongly enough about it one way or t’other. Oh and of course they have mentioned in the paper itself, so you can opt for that in your responses too:

    ‘Option 7 – no change

    7.42. The final option is to do nothing. This is clear, but fails to address concerns about the lack of inclusion and recognition in society of non- binary people’–3-.pdf

  131. Free Scotland says:

    My French teacher taught me years ago that gender in language study relates to the assigning of a word to a particular group, i.e. – in the case of French – masculine or feminine, and should not be confused with the word “sex,” which is a biological term having two subdivisions, namely male and female. So, in French, a radiator, a ceiling and a carpet are all masculine, while a door, a window and a shower are all feminine. To illustrate his point further, he explained that “une personne” (a feminine word) simply means “a person” and is a general term used, as in English, to refer to someone without paying particular attention to whether the person is male or female.

    The randomness of the “gender” concept and its distinction from the meaning of “sex” is highlighted by the fact that the French words for milk, the vagina and the breast are all masculine, while the word for the penis can be either masculine (le pénis) or feminine (la verge).

    In a nutshell, then, best not to get our knickers in a twist (oops, should probably mention boxers for balance) over the multiple loony sideshows on offer, and just concentrate on campaigning for Scottish independence. If Jim Murphy wants to get all cosy with Eddie Izzard, that’s his pigeon: I have other fish to fry. Or, as the French would say: “J’ai d’autres chats à fouetter,” which means, literally, “I have other cats to whip.”

  132. jfngw says:

    Just to add to my previous comment. The figures could with a impartial media be reported as number of people seen within 4 hours increased by 7% in 2017 compared to same week in 2016. Now that would be a novelty.

  133. heedtracker says:

    Marcia says:
    3 January, 2018 at 7:40 pm

    I didn’t word that one right did I:D

    Or did I.

  134. Ruby says:

    I haven’t read about the thousand immediately obvious major problems with this idea in the many links provided in the above article I just thought I would try to see how many I could think of.

    NHS call Danielle Muscato for smear test. All women get called.

    Doctor says I’m sorry Danielle I can’t do the smear test because…….

    Danielle gets angry and says:

    If you think I am ‘less’ of a woman or NOT a woman because I don’t fit your mental picture of what a woman ‘should’ look like, or what body parts women ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ have, news flash:

    Your mental description of women is not only inaccurately narrow, but anti-feminist and bigoted as well.

    She might be OK when called by the NHS for a mammogram.

  135. K1 says:

    Slight change in your CHI number on medical record already lets NHSScotland know what your assigned gender is.

  136. Free Scotland says:

    ‘… in the future allow people to legally “self-define” the fact of whether they’re a man or a woman.’

    I feel a thesis coming on: Biological Facts and their Incompatibility with Subjective Biological Self-Definition.

    If the thesis is a flop, maybe I’ll redefine myself as the new Heavyweight Champion of the World. Hey, I weigh just a little over 10 stone, but there must be some desperate politicians willing to support a law against weightism so that my self-definition can be justified.

  137. Petra says:

    @ Maren at 7:33pm …… “I’m now asking myself who would this new law help. What are they not willing to do that they need the right to self-certify?”

    Excellent post Maren. I’m also asking myself the same type of questions and considering the “live and let live” type of comments. Who exactly will that apply to, more SO no longer apply to, if these changes go ahead? To be honest I’m totally scunnered with singular people such as Trump and May, ‘minority activists’ and the PC cabal ruling the roost whilst screwing everything up. The lunatics taking over the asylum right enough.

  138. Ruby says:

    Free Scotland

    You are talking about French nouns the problems arise when using adjectives.
    ie belle or beau?

    PS What about the les chattes?

  139. Free Scotland says:

    @Ruby at 8:48

    I felt my post was getting a bit long, so decided to avoid all that adjectival stuff. And as for “les chattes,” well, I thought I’d better not as, technically, it’s still pre-watershed.

  140. heedtracker says:

    NHS call Danielle Muscato for smear test. All women get called.

    Doctor says I’m sorry Danielle I can’t do the smear test because…….

    Danielle gets angry and says:

    If you think I am ‘less’ of a woman or NOT a woman because I don’t fit your mental picture of what a woman ‘should’ look like, or what body parts women ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ have, news flash:

    Would that actually happen though? A lot of the nae saying seems a bit too reminiscent of the gay basher days, and how the sky would fall on our heads, if queers, fairies, poofs, fags etc were no longer criminalised or allowed to marry.

    It still goes on too ofcourse, mainly from the religious, who say they believe that old man in robes is sitting up in the clouds and He is the arbiter of right and wrong.

  141. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The ITA News report of hospital waiting times was very good to Scotland making it very plain that it was outperforming the rest of the UK Health Service very significantly and had a satisfied patient on singing its praise.

    BBC news was determined to paint Scotland’s service the same as the rest of the UK.

  142. Petra says:


    NHS. The NHS in England discounts particular stats relating to cancelled ops in comparison to Scotland. In other words skews the figures to the detriment of Scotland. I can’t find the NHS article that highlighted this, but will post it when I do.

  143. Tackety Beets says:

    @ Free Scotland @ 8.18 PM

    Remind us what “Fishing Rod” is in French Smiley Fing

  144. K1 says:

    ‘Would that actually happen though? A lot of the nae saying seems a bit too reminiscent of the gay basher days, and how the sky would fall on our heads, if queers, fairies, poofs, fags etc were no longer criminalised or allowed to marry.’

    As I said Heed, the CHI number is altered and already in place in Scotland regarding this. This is not a ‘new’ law, it’s a proposal to alter the existing legislation.

    But thank you for pointing out what is happening here. No words.

  145. Free Scotland says:

    @Tackety Beets

    canne à pêche

  146. Ruby says:

    heedtracker says:
    3 January, 2018 at 8:59 pm

    Would that actually happen though?

    Would that actually happen though? A lot of the nae saying seems a bit too reminiscent of the gay basher days, and how the sky would fall on our heads, if queers, fairies, poofs, fags etc were no longer criminalised or allowed to marry.

    It still goes on too ofcourse, mainly from the religious, who say they believe that old man in robes is sitting up in the clouds and He is the arbiter of right and wrong.

    Ruby replies

    If you are registered as female on the NHS you will definitely be called for a smear test whether or not you decide to go is up to you.
    I don’t know which male specific tests there but if you were registered as female you would miss out on these test.

    These are just practical problems that I am highlighting nothing to do with bigotry or trans bashing.

    On saying that I am probably a bit bigoted I possibly need to go for diversity training. I can’t honestly say that when I look at the picture of Danielle Muscato in her red dress that I don’t find it a bit strange. You are probably a lot more evolved than I am heed tracker or perhaps better at pretending.

  147. Dr Jim says:

    Tom Gordon = Scumbag

    There, sorted!

  148. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Also: trans people weren’t just invented last week. They’re been around, in society, forever. Nothing is going to change.”

    Um, why do it, then?

  149. Meg merrilees says:

    listened to the Biased Broadcasting Corp. at 6pm tonight – main item ENHS and the crisis in England as hospitals are all on maximum alert and swamped. It then considered Welsh NHS – not very much better and possibly worse performing then they considered Scotland.

    Here we go, I thought, the SNHS is definitely ‘creaking’; a hospital in Dumfries has cancelled operations ‘for this week only’; a hospital in lanarkshire is not meeting it’s target and has called in extra staff and Aberdeen Royal Infirmary on black alert. NO mention of how many hospital etc in Scotland, how most of them were coping and meeting the A&E target about 87% of the time , but amazingly, they did sum up by saying that it was clear that the SNHS was coping much better than the others – why? Better forward planning apparently.

    Apparently last week in 96% of A &E in NHS Tayside seen within 4 hours – stunning!!!

    Well done all our SNHS staff.

  150. K1 says:

    ‘7.21. Some Scottish records also contain information about a person’s sex, such as the Community Health Index number (CHI number). A CHI number is allocated to every patient in NHS Scotland. The number can currently be changed to reflect the gender identity of trans men and women. But it cannot currently be changed to record the gender identity of a non-binary patient.’–3-.pdf

  151. maxxmacc says:

    The current Gender Agenda is all about destroying the concept of man and woman, and thereby ultimately destroying the concept of family, which is the greatest defense society has against governmental tyranny.

    Sad to see the Scottish Govt back such nonsense, but such decisions are taken above governmental level, as they are intended to damage society, not preserve it.

    There are only two genders, man and woman, there are no others. People who feel trapped in the wrong body can visit the NHS and go through the long painful process of changing sex if they so wish.

    And before you say I have no experience of this, may I say that one of my friends was born a man and raised two kids before deciding to become a woman, which he now is. If you were to call her an ‘it’ then you would get a size 11 down you’re throat and rightly so.

    Governments should be looking at why so many men (70% of sexual identity cases) now want to become women. It is clear that all the estrogen in the water supply is having an effect, yet no one dare mention this. We are all delicate chemical balances and unless something is done to affect the water table, then this issue will continue to grow, and further destabilize society.

  152. White Van Wummin says:

    Looks like a few nutters are being used to try and stigmatise an entire group of marginalised people.

    I think I will go with what people working in this area and and in safe spaces have to say.

    Close the Gap, Engender, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, jointly said:
    “For over a decade, we have engaged in constructive dialogue with our colleagues in the Scottish Trans Alliance, Equality Network, LGBT Youth Scotland and Stonewall Scotland. We do not regard trans equality and women’s equality to be in competition or contradiction with each other. We support the Equal Recognition campaign and welcome the reform of the Gender Recognition Act. Rape Crisis and Women’s Aid in Scotland provide trans inclusive services on the basis of self identification. We will continue to work collaboratively with Scottish Trans Alliance and other equality organisations with the aim of ensuring that new processes are appropriately designed and without unintended consequences.”

  153. heedtracker says:

    You are probably a lot more evolved than I am heed tracker or perhaps better at pretending.

    Doubt it Rubes. These issues though, are gender specific. If you’re not that gender, its hard to really get with it, unless you believe in a diety ofcourse.

    Its like this one, how many male gynecologists are there today?ask Alexa, raise an eyebrow here, plucked:D

    As an ex The Graun reader, Germaine Greer was a regular Wimmens issue Graun columnist, who regularly wrote things like male gynecology is sexual assault. I do not about that at all, because I am not a girl, or a medic.

  154. heedtracker says:

    You are probably a lot more evolved than I am heed tracker or perhaps better at pretending.

    Doubt it Rubes. These issues though, are gender specific. If you’re not that gender, its hard to really get with it, unless you believe in a diety ofcourse.

    Its like this one, how many male gynecologists are there today?ask Alexa, raise an eyebrow here, plucked:D

    As an ex The Graun reader, Germaine Greer was a regular Wimmens issue Graun columnist, who regularly wrote things like male gynecology is sexual assault. I dont know about that at all, because I am not a girl, or a medic.

  155. Dr Jim says:

    I want everything changed and I want it by tomorrow afternoon at 3pm or I’ll scweam and scweam at everybody else for not doing what I say

    Al these folk doing the scweaming about genders and alignments and presenting as something other than whatever is different from anybody else should remember it’s only been virtually five minutes ago evolution wise that you would have been locked up in prison or the madhouse or kicked to death by the police or killed in an alley and the right wing Nazis who run Britain were quite happy about that fact so get off your high horses at folk who are actually attempting to accommodate your many and various positions as best they can and thank whatever diety you hold dear for that

    Now here’s the party political bit:

    The Tories assisted by Labour in Westminster post Brexit are about to repeal the human rights act giving them the power to return whatever part of the UK you might live in to those days I have just mentioned
    So if you want any recognition of your positions to stand at all you’d better vote for Scottish Independence because it’ll be your only chance of that ever happening

    Tories and Labour are like crocodiles, evolution hasn’t changed them in a gazillion years, so when you think they’re smiling at you for your vote

    They’re smiling at lunch

  156. jfngw says:

    Presumably once we can change our birth certificates my deep held belief that I am descended from a much richer vein of ancestors can be corrected and the anguish of not having the wealth I feel I am entitled to put right.

    Obviously nonsense but where do you stop when it becomes acceptable to alter historical records.

    I see some are using the well worn technique of trying to shut those with concerns down or put them on defensive by bringing up gay bashers, etc.

  157. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Oh dear. I despair.

    Putting myself in the shoes of the ordinary person (which is basically what I am anyway), how is any of this latest episode of parliamentary right-on-errie (and for that matter the consequent extensive angels-on-pinhead btl discussion about it here) going to make independence one whit more likely…?

    A “reset” was one thing, but if people are getting themslves worn down pursuing this kind of thing for a “day job” instead of something way more productive for our common future, then a serious refocus is required by somebody somewhere.

    And damn soon.

  158. frogesque says:

    @ Dr Jim 10.08

    Love the party political!

  159. Lady Mondegreen says:

    If anyone is tempted to accept self-ID because “International best practice,” please, stop and think. “International best practice” sounds impressive, doesn’t it? All it means is everyone’s doing it–because they’ve all given in to trans activists, who are driven by politics, not evidence.

  160. heedtracker says:

    I see some are using the well worn technique of trying to shut those with concerns down or put them on defensive by bringing up gay bashers, etc.

    It’s not technique and or well worn. Progressive issues are not written in stone, they change until they get it right or wrong, depending on what you think is right.

  161. Ruby says:


    I do have some serious doubts about feminists and feminism.

    I definitely don’t see male gynecology as sexual assault.
    I find smear tests etc equally embarassing whether they are done by a male or female. Sex is the furtherst thing from my mind. I have no problem with male doctors I was quite surprised the last time when my doctors asked if I would prefer to see a female doctor. I do know there are women who prefer to see female doctors.

    I don’t know anything about men’s preference would you say men would prefer to have a man carry out a vascetomy/testicular checks? What about having a Prince Albert inserted would men prefer that to be done by a man or would they be OK with a woman?

  162. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Robert J. Sutherland

    Well said sir enough of this pish, much more important stuff going on there is too much madness floating about.

  163. heedtracker says:

    A “reset” was one thing, but if people are getting themslves worn down pursuing this kind of thing for a “day job” instead of something way more productive for our common future, then a serious refocus is required by somebody somewhere.

    If government is not working for the good of the people, it’s not worlking, all people, even the FABULOUS!

  164. Ruby says:


    I have another question

    How do men feel about their wives/girlfriends having smear tests etc done by a male doctor?

    What about having vagina piercing (or whatever you call them) done by a male? Would the husband/boyfriend be OK with that?

  165. galamcennalath says:

    Trying to make sense of most this, because quite honestly I have never thought much about these issues.

    As I see it. There are three variables …

    – sexual orientation and preference
    – gender identity
    – genitalia

    … from these, a large number of human permutations are possible.

    People associate themselves with different permutations. The first two are probably caused variations in brain chemistry. Also, the wonders of modern medicine allow the third variable to be chosen.

    It’s probably worth challenging any myth up front that any particular permutation might have a predisposition to predatory or morally unacceptable behaviour. Humans are humans, most good, some bad and inclined to abuse. True of all permutations.

    Passports and official documents. Surely this is only about physically identifying the individual. Brown hair, blue eyes, and … which genitalia? The first two variables above shouldn’t be relevant. A passport isn’t recording your thoughts, just your physical appearance. Simple, I think.

    With rights come responsibilities. Exercising rights often necessitates common sense and respect for others. So why would a person who looks physically like a man (regardless of how they feel about their own gender) ever want to demand the right to enter an area which women regard as women’s space, knowing this will inevitably cause offence? The opposite scenario is of course identical, with a woman insisting on entering a men’s area. Demanding to exercise such a ‘right’ sounds a tad aggressive and confrontational!

  166. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


    RE More important stuff going on:

    “Britain is in talks to join a trans-Pacific trade group to boost exports after the UK leaves the European Union according to reports.”


    “Combined spending from the 11 TPP countries make up less than 8% of the UK’s export market, with Japan taking just 1.6% of UK exports, compared with the 11% bought by Germany.”

    All those great Empire 2.0 opportunities still just over the horizon nae doot.

  167. galamcennalath says:

    Ruby says:

    Would the husband/boyfriend be OK with that?

    The decision is the woman’s.

    You ask how their partner might feel. Firstly the must respect the woman’s decision.

    If the male partner doesn’t like it through feelings of jealously or mistrust or even possessiveness, at a minimum they need to have a long talk about their relationship.

  168. t42 says:

    Effijy says:
    “To take it on to the next step, Wimbledon Week will now become Wimbledon 52 weeks.”

    New balls please..

  169. heedtracker says:

    Ruby says:
    3 January, 2018 at 10:35 pm

    I have another question

    How do men feel about their wives/girlfriends having smear tests etc done by a male doctor?

    Depends Rubes. Is the male doc good looking?

    No but I don’t care. Its between highly trained and skilled medics and their patients what they do.

    Or its like asking me to do a smear test. I probably wouldn’t be very good at it, or would want to either:D

  170. galamcennalath says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Britain is in talks to join a trans-Pacific trade group

    Aye, of more interest to me, even if off topic.

    I’ve been seeing references to that all day. Like everything else associated with Brexit, sheer lunacy.

    The EU has negotiated excellent trade agreements with loads of countries. New ones in the pipeline i.e. Australia and Japan. Perhaps just as important, the EU hasn’t agreed to crap deals like TTIP with the US.

    There is not a snowball in Hell’s chance that the UK will ever replicate as good deals as it has/would have within the EU.

    The a hard Brexit UK will be weak and desperate which will make it the target of predatory arrangements. Taken to the cleaners, would be an appropriate phrase. Or, just plain ripped off.

    Scotland needs to get to fck away from the madness.

  171. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ maxxmacc

    I’m not sure about estrogen in the water supply (would drinking more of it get rid of the hair on my arse?), but I am sure about the suicide rate for men being three times higher than women. And that the SNP have twee little right-on badges (including black people yay progressive!) on their website to steer people towards groups: Artists, Business, Disabled, LGBT, New Scots, Pensioners, Rural, Students, Trade Unionists, Women, and Young People. Can you see what’s missing?

    I think you must get into strange and difficult territory if you start focussing too much on men being victims.

  172. Petra says:

    @ maxxmacc at 9:47pm ….. “Governments should be looking at why so many men now want to become women – water supply.”

    Good point maxxmac. I had been considering that point when the Irn Bru article was posted on here recently. Thinking that I’d be more concerned about the implications of what contained the Irn Bru rather than the level of sugar therein.

    Research findings highlight that the levels of the plasticizer phthalates which mimic oestrogen, for example used in making plastic bottles (sex toys etc), have been linked to ‘gender bending’. The oestrogen in turn gets into the water supply. This of course may not address this particular issue in full but it would make sense for the Scottish Government to look into it. Maybe make IT a priority? Find out what products being sold in Scotland contain plasticizers. Find out if soft drinks bottles, milk bottles and so on are being made using non-phthalatic plasticizers or not.

  173. heedtracker says:

    It may be the oestrogen in fizzy drinks but there’s a carcinogenic gas produced in the polymerising manufacturing process of all plastic bottles. And it sits in the bottle with the drink, waiting to be inhaled by the drinker.

    Not a lot of people know that but they really should.

  174. Ruby says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    3 January, 2018 at 10:51 pm
    @ maxxmacc

    I’m not sure about estrogen in the water supply (would drinking more of it get rid of the hair on my arse?)

    Ruby replies

    If that fails you could try eating more chicken.

    Marco (Marcello Mastroianni) is a driving instructor who is engaged to Irène (Catherine Deneuve), a hairdresser. After eating a chicken dinner, he complains to his housekeeper that she cooks chicken too frequently. He begins to feel bloated and tired and sees a doctor. The doctor determines that he is pregnant, and an expert concludes that the hormones in chicken have made him sufficiently feminine to carry a child. With his permission, the doctors publicize this event, and he becomes a model for a maternity clothing company creating a new line of paternity clothes.

  175. Capella says:

    After carefully considering all the options, I’ve concluded that this is an issue which divides people about something which doesn’t really matter. Like football.

    Our imperial masters are so pleased that we argue about this. Otherwise, we might decide to focus our wrath on their theft of all our treasure.

  176. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Ruby

    “Mais oui, je suis un pregnant homme, je suis tres heureux! Oh zut alors mon amour *paaaaaaaaaarrrp-hisssssssssss* mon dieu! *honnnnnnk*…..*poot*

    Je suis triste. :(”


  177. Mike d says:

    Exactly Capella. Eye on the main prize.INDEPENDENCE.

  178. Big Jock says:

    Is it not scientific fact that there are only x and y chromosomes. Are we trying to reinvent the wheel here?

  179. Bobp says:

    Galamcennalath. 10.35pm “A woman insisting on entering a man’s area demanding to exercise her rights”. SHE can like or lump my Willy demanding to exercise its rights.

  180. Big Jock says:

    Capella- Correct. I think it’s a lot of stooshie about looky looky.

    Let’s get back to politics not these self obsessed individuals.

  181. Big Jock says:

    BTW I went into the womans changing rooms at Matalan today. It was my fault but it created a lot of fuss over nothing. I should have said I was mixed up about whether I was xy,xx, yx, yy or just a feckless clown as usual.

  182. HandandShrimp says:

    Hi Capella

    Yes, this is definitely “angels on the head of a pin” territory. I am not sure any law change will make the slightest difference to the vast majority of us. If it helps the few then fair enough. It isn’t something I want to oppose or even think much about. There are matters that concern me more.

  183. mike cassidy says:

    In September the BBC broadcast a good documentary “Being Transgender”

    Unfortunately the whole film is no longer available.

    The final part was an explicit ‘snip and tuck’ male-to-female operation conducted by a surgeon who herself had had such an op.

    Unsurprisingly that’s the part available on youtube!

    No, I didn’t watch it then and not now either.

    What can I say? I’m a delicate soul.

  184. Ken500 says:

    More lies from Tom Gordon. What a dispicable person. If should be possible to sue him if there was any justice. Hope that he is forced to make a retraction and apologise. Defaming women. Sexual harassment. He needs a good letter. P45. If that still exists. Or a bawling out.

    Young claims an apology because he passed land to his father so he would not have to declared it. What a crook. Defrauding public money and getting the City in debt. Greedy lying, bastard. Wasting public money like there is no tomorrow. Cutting essential services. Greedy little trougher. .

    Doctors do smear test all the time. Any patient can ask for a lady doctor Most do not bother. Nowadays there often has to be a nurse there as well. There is always another healthcare specialist (nurse) there as a chaperon. Not sure if there is a chaperon there if a lady Doctor does it.

    It is only done routinely every few years. People do not have to attend if they do not want. Not compulsory. It is advisable. If the smear test saves someone live. It is possible patients/relatives are not concerned about which healthcare professional, with a chaperon does it. Just the patient gets well. How would partners/husband/relatives feel if the person dies.

    Smear tests are usually done by Doctors. The story of the bearded nurse seems a bit strange. It is usually Doctors who do it. A male doctor is usually chaperoned (female) nowadays if it is for routine intimate examination.

    This thread is quite cheeky. Not very respectful for people not the ‘norm’. Or .empathetic. Quite juvenile. These issues can cause people to self harm and contemplate suicide. Not insurmountable issues. Minor issues to resolve with a bit of patience and understanding. They are fellow human being. With rights and feeling. People letting the side down. More compassion.

  185. geeo says:

    Re the male/female doctor/health professional question..

    After giving birth to our eldest, her placenta just would not budge, even after many attempts over a fairly long time, so the (female) midwife sent for a doctor to try remedy the situation.

    In comes this 6ft 5 inch stunningly built male adonis….

    Before he gets near her, out pops the placenta.

    I made the obvious jibe about the handsome doc making even her placenta ‘swoon’…

    Her response …”hell no…did you see the size of that fuckers hands”!!!

    Guess what i am saying is…gender amongst professionals is IRRELEVENT, they are professionals ffs.

    As for the gender identity stuff, live and let live, how someone feels about their gender is their business, however, it is reasonable to expect guidelines as to how access to public toilets etc is ‘policed’ for want of a better word.

  186. William Wallace says:

    I am by my own definition an MTF-USB extension cable and I will batter anybody that tells me otherwise. 😉 It’s on my passport and everything. 🙂

  187. twathater says:

    Petra 2.13pm I agree with you Petra I think this is another ploy to back the SNP SG into a corner, another doomed if they do and doomed if they don’t, this is a very contentious situation and they MOST CERTAINLY will alienate people no matter what side they come down on.

    Does anyone honestly believe that any of the unionist parties give a flying feck about this issue , when as Jack Collatin says they don’t care about starving children ,food banks ,homelessness or any other shite imposed by wastemonster .

    We have a battle to win and legislation such as this , I am sorry to say is a diversionary tactic , I genuinely feel for persons trapped within this maze of mental and physical confusion but to introduce this legislation with the possibility of 30 to 70 terms of sexuality or gender categories would blow the jocks and Jennies minds , honestly they would think the SG had lost the plot , look at the furore enjoyed by the msm and the unionists when Stu made the joke about muddle junior , he was accused by all and sundry of being Satan’s emissary , he was castigated and demonised for a harmless joke misconstrued

  188. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    OT. Your license fee hard at work.

  189. Al Dossary says:

    I guess that the views are generalise across the age groups. I am soon to enter the 50+ group and opinioned that so long as people keep their business to themselves then they can do as they wish.

    I do see the occasional Philippino out here in the middle east with extremely feminine features – think little boobies and tomboy is hips. Some chemical treatment going on I guess in preparation for an op when they eventually return home. Strange, to see this in a country where being homosexual can be punishable by death.

    I have met more camp men out here in the last few years than in the previous 45 at home. In typical Arab tradition it happens – they just don’t admit to it happening in their culture.

    One of my most surreal nights out was in Blackpool – Roxy’s fun pub with my mate – who basically is a 55yo stoner. We walk into this place after a Chinese meal. The barman is a pretty effeminate male, nothing really strange – yet. Out comes the DJ / compere – the luscious Roxy.

    Roxy is dressed in the biggest, frilliest dress you ever did see with flowing locks of hair and these enormous fluttering eyelashes. Is that a bloke? my mate asks? (Turns out Roxy is a rather famous Queen who has starred in Corination St some years previously). Then the reality starts to dawn. The pub is mostly populated by couples – Female couples, sitting in pairs all around the bar. One butch, one effimitate seems to be the norm.

    Then in walks this 6′ tall vision – In a mini-skirt with high heels and proceeds to stand at the bar drinking “her” Martini. I still wonder to this day where he got his size 12, red high-heels from.

    A strange, but entertaining night. Once the initial shock at the realisation of the pub was gone we had a great night.

  190. yesindyref2 says:

    OT from the Herald, quote of the year so far:

    Tim Bale, Professor of Politics at Queen Mary, said: . . .

    “The Tory grassroots, in particular, are something of a breed apart from their Labour, Lib Dem and SNP counterparts.”

  191. CameronB Brodie says:

    Utilitarians don’t need to be skeptical about human rights, as natural law is compatible with a consequentialist approach to moral judgement.

    The Utilitarian Foundations of Natural Law

    I believe that the correspondence in outcomes between the classical utilitarians and their natural law rivals is not simply a matter of coincidence, but rests upon a deep convergence between these two theories. The sense of convergence was, I think, fairly evident in the works of the earlier natural law writers, many of whom were quite happy to make reference to general utility in the course of their deliberations. Indeed in the earlier writings, the utility of the rules were not the reasons for their binding force, but were evidence of the goodness of the divine will that made them obligatory on mankind.”

    Often the demonstrations of the utilitarian advantages received a subordinate place in the argument, but they are evident on even a casual inspection of the text. Blackstone, for example, could refer to private property as “[t]he immediate gift of the creator,”12 in one place, but then give the standard modern justification for private property-the internalization of gains from private effort maximizes social output-with a clarity and precision modern analysts would do well to emulate.” The simplest way to view the connection between the two traditions is to understand that the utilitarian considerations have come to dominate the analysis given the loss of faith in divine providence….

    Doing the right thing: Ethical dilemmas in public policy making

    Science and governance: Four models

    In 1990, Sheila Jasanoff (1990, 230, 245) summed up the evolution of thinking about science, politics and policy making by observing that:

    Although pleas for maintaining a strict separation between science and politics continue to run like a leitmotif through the policy literature, the artificiality of this position can no longer be doubted. Studies of scientific advising leave in tatters the notion that it is possible, in practice, to restrict the advisory process to technical issues or that the subjective values of scientists are irrelevant to decisionmaking…. The notion that scientific advisors can or do limit themselves to addressing purely scientific issues, in particular, seems fundamentally misconceived.

    In response to a general acceptance of the validity of this critique, the co-production (or co-evolutionary) model abandons both decisionist and technocratic approaches. It acknowledges that scientific deliberations are located in particular social, political and cultural contexts that affect both the content and direction of those deliberations. Consequently, representations of risk are assumed to be hybrid judgements constructed out of both scientific and non-scientific considerations. Gluckman (2011, 7; cf. Weingart 1999, 154? 57) observes that the decisionist and technocratic models rely on three conditions that are becoming increasingly difficult to fulfil:

    – the need for uncritical public trust in the values and outputs of the scientific process;

    – acceptance of the notion that science is a process that establishes incontrovertible and absolute fact;

    – and complete separation between scientific advice and policy judgement.

    Consequently, Gluckman(2011, 8) commends an iterative, co-production model of policy making, “in which policy makers, expert advisors and society negotiate to set policy goals and regulatory decisions are agreed to be scientifically justifiable (in terms, say, of the information available and the levels of future risk that are tolerable) as well as socially and politically acceptable.”

    A co-production model requires expert advisors to be sophisticated in the way we engage with policy makers and the public. We need to communicate assumptions, limitations and uncertainties in a transparent manner, and present options in ways that allow decision-makers to factor the full range of their possible benefits or adverse effects into regulatory decisions. Gluckman (2011, 8) is concerned to promote more and better use of evidence in policy making, but notes that caution is needed to avoid co-opting scientific advice as an inappropriate proxy in difficult decisions that should be made on other grounds.” Both the ‘scientification of politics’ and the politicisation of science’ are to be avoided, as the boundary between science and politics is constantly redrawn (Weingart 1999, 160).

    Measuring Subjective Well-Being From A Realist Viewpoint


    Subjective well-being (SWB) refers to a person?s declared well-being and is based on a person?s answer to either a single question or a group of questions about his or her subjectively perceived satisfaction or happiness. SWB is believed to be an outcome measure by which to judge successful living. The current literature on SWB consists predominately of studies of the quantitative tradition. These studies are mainly explicitly or implicitly utilitarian.

    This paper criticises the mainstream utilitarian SWB concept on theoretical and moral grounds. On moral grounds utilitarianism is rejected. On theoretical grounds it is especially argued that the subjective-objective divide regarding the experience behind SWB indicators is blurred. Based on this critique a critical realist approach to SWB is developed. Insights from secondary data for South Africa (SALDRU) are used to illustrate this critical realist approach. The paper concludes with a summary of how such an approach departs from that of utilitarians.

  192. Ken500 says:

    Just have a separate gender toilet which anyone can use. Like a separate disable toilet. Built in any new building or facility. There is such a low number of people as a percentage. It should not be a problem, until it is done. An extremely small number of people. To cater for. There are already mixed changing facility etc being incorporated in swimming pools and sports facilities. In shops there could be a gender changing room established. Or a gender cubicle set aside which anyone can use. If they desire. The first cubicle in the changing room or something. It is such a small number of people concerns. It is a minimal consideration.

    There are already shared facilities toilets where the cubicles are designated men or women. Just make one toilet cubicle a gender one which anyone can use if they wish. There is one in a popular restaurant in St, Andrew. People go in the same shared door but the toilet cubicles are designated male or female in the door. The trouble is if men go in one of the female cubicle and per in the floor. But that doesn’t seem to happen. There is also a member of staff available with a mop and a bucket some disinfectant to mop the floors.

    The numbers concerned are too small for it to be a major concern. There should be a time qualification for facility requirement changes. It is not a major problem. Just designate one cubicle a gender toilet and put a label in the door. Anyone can use it if they wish. The first toilet in the row. Are people worried some person is going to hang about a toilet and attack someone or something. They could do that now in any case. Attacking someone is a crime. It is already a crime and would get reported and dealt with. There are minimum cases where a person is hanging about a toilet attacking people. Minimal. Hardly ever happens. Must be once is a blue moon. There are more people attack in their own homes (more of a problem) than in a public toilet. Most people are quite sensible. Unless they are under the influence if drink or drugs, A major factor in committing crime.

    There is a gender factor. More men than women are likely to commit crime,especially violent crkne, especially against each other. . Statistically women (gender) they do not commit crime. Or not very much by comparison. They are more likely to be poor and shoplift to feed their kids. Minor offences. Or not pay their TV licence in other parts of the UK. Do not think people in Scotland can be put in prison for not paying their TV licence. Civil,offence? Thank goodness. Different legal system. Less women should be in prison. Less people with additional needs should be in prison. They should be given proper support. There should be more total abstinence proper rehab funding. Cheaper than prison and more cuts effective, Unionist councils would rather illegally spend the allocated funding on groteque projects of no value. No one wants. Than on essential services. They are the offensive ones.

    Tommy Sheridan got warrant sales stopped in Scotland. Poorer people’s goods being sold off at lesser value for minor debt. Tommy Sheridan went to prison for campaigning against the Poll tax and lying non Dom tax evading Press. He win damages but not enough. He should be admonished and given major compensation. The unionist influenced legal system let justice down. A stitch up by unionists.low lives,

  193. Petra says:

    @ twathater says at 2:35 am …. ”Petra 2.13pm I agree with you Petra I think this is another ploy to back the SNP SG into a corner, another doomed if they do and doomed if they don’t, this is a very contentious situation and they MOST CERTAINLY will alienate people no matter what side they come down on. Does anyone honestly believe that any of the unionist parties give a flying feck about this issue, when as Jack Collatin says they don’t care about starving children, food banks, homelessness or any other shite imposed by wastemonster. We have a battle to win and legislation such as this, I am sorry to say is a diversionary tactic, I genuinely feel for persons trapped within this maze of mental and physical confusion but to introduce this legislation with the possibility of 30 to 70 terms of sexuality or gender categories would blow the jocks and Jennies minds, honestly they would think the SG had lost the plot, look at the furore enjoyed by the msm and the unionists when Stu made the joke about muddle junior, he was accused by all and sundry of being Satan’s emissary, he was castigated and demonised for a harmless joke misconstrued.”

    Spot on TH. This won’t go down well with the general public at all, as Stu’s figures clearly show. And of course the Media probably won’t mention that other political parties at Holyrood support this or that it’s based on UN Law. Just more of the SNP Baad mantra to put up with and seeing loss of support no doubt.

    We now know where this is coming from thanks to K1’s post re. the UN’s Yogyakarta Principles. However I wonder if the experts have taken into account the practicalities in implementing this? Taken the same amount of time to set out guidelines to protect the rights of those, the vast majority of people, who don’t suffer from gender dysphoria?

    As examples, no doubt a few of many, what do you do about people who decide from one day to the next, in fact for some when it comes up their humph, that they are no longer male (or female) when faced with going to prison, general hospitals, psychiatric hospitals and so on? What about the rights of the women in such institutions? And as Maren mentioned earlier when they demand to get access to women’s / children’s refuges with the law on their side? What can the Police do if they receive a call to say that a man has been seen entering a female toilet when the man can just turn around and say that he’s actually a woman?

    I see now through taking a quick look at the Yogyakarta Principles that there’s NO age limit to this either. So what age are we talking about here?

    ”Ensure that no eligibility criteria, such as medical or psychological interventions, a psycho-medical diagnosis, minimum or maximum age, economic status, health, marital or parental status, or any other third party opinion, shall be a prerequisite to change one’s name, legal sex or gender..”

    Add to that we’ve now got organisations wanting to influence children as young as two years of age when we know that the basic concept of understanding the difference between lies and truth develops gradually into early adolescence when children’s conceptual and moral understanding of lying and truth-telling becomes comparable to adults. Talk about wanting to screw up young minds. What’s wrong with the educational programmes being implemented in Scottish nurseries and during early years schooling that affords all children the ability to choose where to play / play with, such as boys with dolls and girls with cars or whatever? Why bring ‘drag queens’ into this?

    ”Drag queens are being brought into nursery schools for storytelling sessions to teach children from the age of two about issues such as gender fluidity… inspired to set up the project after learning about a similar scheme in the US named Drag Queen Story Hour.”

    Totally lost the plot now. Where is this all going to end?

  194. sinky says:

    bbc Radio Scotland giving big links to Tory and Lib Dem press releases but no coverage of The National front pages… yesterday on Scotland In union meltdown or Scotland Office spending on hospitality. No balance.

  195. S.Perspective says:

    My gender identity is broad and inclusive and I require that I am forthwith addressed as „we“ at all times by everyone:

    Our gender identity is broad and inclusive and we require that we are addressed as „we“ at all times by all of ourselves.

  196. Ken500 says:

    Listeners to Radio Scotland give it more credibility. Keeps up the listening figure. Turning over or switching off get’s rid of irrelevant irrational programmes of bias. There are plenty of alternatives.

    BBC can feck off. Until it upholds it’s Charter of impartiality, diversity, bias and funding allocation provision. There is no BBC Scotland. That is a lie. Another branch Office. Keeling over. A shambles. As bad as the mother ship. Out of kilter with the majority of any would be audience.

  197. Dr Jim says:

    Almost everybody who sees a sign on a bench or somewhere that reads Wet Paint just has to touch it
    Our forebears came up with a brilliant idea to stop stupid people and chidren being hurt or burned by fire and they called it The fireguard

    We need a modern day fireguard around the media so’s people can’t be affected by what they read and will learn not to touch it

  198. Petra says:

    BBC News: Ruth Davidson and her Tory cabal ”have obtained information that shows that over the last four years ambulances have set out on 10,000 occasions with a single crew member which is unacceptable and goes against Scottish Government Policy.” In an earlier news broadcast the word ”illegal” was used and dropped later.

    What about the BBC asking Ms Davidson, leader of the Conservative and Unionist English branch office in Scotland, why the Scottish Government, hence the Scottish people, have been told to tighten their belts and had billions cut from their sweety money by her Tory bosses in London, whilst their tax avoider and evader pals have done us out of £trillions over the last four years? They could even have asked her why Holyrood didn’t receive the £2.9 billion owed to us last year (which her crony Mundell said we would get) when the DUP in N Ireland were told that they would be receiving £1.5 billion (yet to get) and why Hammond has cut our ‘budget’ by £500 million over the next two years. And then there’s the £140 million backdated VAT money that doesn’t seem to be coming our way either. What’s happened to that? Some of that money, in fact, could have been spent on supporting the Scottish Ambulance Service.

    I reckon we know what’s going on here. The fact that the SNP with on average 17.5% control over all powers is running the NHS in Scotland with FAR BETTER RESULTS than the Tories with 100% control are running the NHS in England is sticking in their craw.


    Wee Ginger Dug …. NHS.

    ‘Telling them why.’

    ”There was an interesting Twitter exchange the other day which in a single word illustrated all that is wrong with the Scottish media. The estimable Lesley Riddoch tweeted a link to her latest article in the Scotsman, a plea to the Scottish media that when they engage in their regular bouts of slagging off NHS Scotland, they should compare the performance of Scotland’s health service with the health services in the rest of the UK before rushing to condemn. The article pointed out quite reasonably that Scotland’s NHS performs significantly better than the Conservative run NHS in England.

    Lesley tweeted: “New Year’s resolution for Scottish press. Next winter when opposition politicians are outraged about the state of the Scottish NHS, why not compare conditions with the privatised, collapsing health service in England before passing judgement?”

    Scotsman columnist Euan McColm replied to her with a single word tweet: “Why?” ….”

  199. Ken500 says:

    Back SNP Gov into a corner? Some one brought the Bill it to the Parliament for clarification. The SNP?

    The majority of people in Scotland do not give a toss about this gender thing. It affects so few people. It is such a minor consideration. Affecting so few people. People do not care either way. An irrelevance. Why people give it such prominence and get worked up about it is a mystery. Have they nothing better to do than those concerned insulting each other. Peace person gender people. Get over it.

    The majority in Scotland care majorly about the OBFA which affects the majority and ruins the economy. An absolute disgrace. If it is repealed and nothing appropriate put in it s place the offending Parties will get the backlash. If something is not done about illegal unequal sectarianism, bigotry and racism in sporting facilities and in the streets. Sporting facilities run by perverts, racist, bigots and crooks. Not obeying the Law. Corruotion at every level. Supported by public money illegally They have no shame. Ripping off the punters. Ruining their own industry. No wonder the terraces are empty.

  200. Graeme says:

    There are 2 genders and nature decides which one we are

  201. Ken500 says:

    Davidson does not seem to realise. Hospital are run by Health authorities often full of Tories. The constant unwarranted attacks on the SNHS/Education by ignorant politicians will only result in a backlash. People appreciate how good it is they use it everyday. The Tories do not appreciate the NHS have cut the budget £4Billion a year since 2015 till 2020.

    Davidson seems set upon getting herself and Party disliked even more and more unpopular by telling lies all the time. Give it a rest (hen) not PC. Go and do something more useful than constantly attacking hard working people. Whose job is far more useful Attacking essential services give’s no one any kudos. People can see right through it. The Tories are Incompetent liars. . Going down the tubes. What a disgrace. Killing and maiming their own fellow citizens and innocent people around the world. Killing off the elderly population. Killing off their support attacking other responsible people.

  202. mr thms says:

    With the price of a barrel of North Sea oil now just shy of $70, it’s time to take stock and compare today with 2014..

    More oil is being produced. New fields are coming on-stream this year. Production costs have fallen from $30 to $12 a barrel. The dollar has surged against sterling. The UK government is providing tax relief worth £3.5 billion to the industry until 2021..

  203. Sinky says:

    Alastair Cameron has signed his silly letter in this morning’s Scotsman as Director of Scotland In Union.

    What an opportunity to expose SiU letter writing campaign and “alleged” financial irregularities in the Unionist Press which has ignored the story…. just saying.

  204. Petra says:

    ‘David Mundell slammed over Scotland Office’s 585% budget rise.’

    “With devolution the Scotland Office has become a redundant zombie department, yet the Scottish Secretary has the taxpayer’s credit card out again, and is splashing our hard-earned cash on posh canapes, fizzy wine, and entertainment – at a time when Tory cuts are forcing many families to rely on food banks and emergency aid just to feed their children…”

    ”Brock has previously questioned the hike in the overall cost of the Scotland Office. Figures obtained by the MP show the cost of media relations has risen from £108,439 in 2010, when the Tories came to power, to £686,166 last year. The last Labour Scotland Office had a staff of five. But under Mundell there were 71 employees, with the department’s salary bill approaching £9 million. “How do you justify that increase when responsibility – your responsibilities specifically – have decreased?” Brock asked the Scottish Tory minister at the a meeting of the Scotland Affair’s Committee…”

    The Scottish Ambulance Service could have done with the millions of pounds of taxpayers money that Mundell, London’s Cabinet man in Scotland, has been squandering in support of the Westminster Union.

    Add to that the £61,641.73 that Mundell and his cronies have been shovelling down their gullets and all over their beards.

    Anything to say about that bill Ruth? Explain that one away to Scottish Ambulance crews.


    ‘Fury as HMS Ocean is sold to Brazil amid Rosyth job crisis.’


    ‘Tory members ‘most afraid that their party is incompetent’, finds study.’

  205. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rev Stu
    I note this AM that Kaye, (wi’ wan e’e), is asking the salient question, “What has social media done for us.”

    Will you tell her – or will the Wingers?

  206. Petra says:

    @ Ken500 says at 8:50 am …. ”The majority of people in Scotland do not give a toss about this gender thing.”

    I would imagine that the majority of people in Scotland don’t have a clue about this ”gender thing”, Ken. We’ll find out if they give a ”toss” when the MSM decides to enlighten them.

  207. Ken500 says:

    The price do not prevent the production of Scottish Oil & Gas. The UK Gov tax did. 40% since Jan 2016. Higher pro rata before that. The Westminster Tories – unionists have been mismanaging the Scottish Oil and Gas sector for years. Higher Oil prices has a negative afect in the economy. Putting prices up in the economy. The only positive is that alternative are cheaper by comparison and can be increasingly invested in a higher proportion.

    Tax should be in relationship to price for some commodities/products.

  208. Petra says:

    @ Robert Peffers says at 9:13 am …. ”@Rev Stu – I note this AM that Kaye,(wi’ wan e’e), is asking the salient question, “What has social media done for us.” Will you tell her – or will the Wingers?”

    Hinting at having it shut down, is she? Scuppering her ability to lie through her teeth? Shame. Poor wee sowel (wi’ wan e’e).

  209. Yerkitbreeks says:

    This is simply a continuation of the laisse faire we see in our society – where for example a single sex couple have improved rights ( civil partnership as well as marriage ) over heteros.

    Maybe the Tory faithful, as revealed in today’s research, have something going for them !

  210. Petra says:

    Talking up Scotland:

    ‘Herald’s emeritus professor gets it wrong on alleged teacher shortages in Scotland’s schools which are much better staffed than those in England.’


    ‘NHS Scotland operation cancellations fall in November and there are no plans for increased cancellations in January but in NHS England…..’

  211. Ken500 says:

    It is such a minority issue that is why it does not affect most people but people’s rights of identity should be upheld. That is why it will probably go through. Any NSM will injynbe SNP bad but that is normal fir MSM. People just get more and more annoyed not at the SNP but at the NSM. Cutting off their nose to spite theur face. MSM are Westminster controlled. That is why the have no credibility. There is an alternative coming through in Scotland.

    The Gender issue is just a non relevance for most people. A storm in a teacup. Why people get so involved in it is a mystery. Making mountain out of mole hills. They should give it a rest. Obsessed with toilets and changing facilities. Body parts. Playing with themselves. Wankers? Peeing and flushing facilities. Toilet jokes. Not very healthy.

    There is always bushes available and internet shopping, Try to buy at home.

  212. geeo says:

    Apologies if this has been linked previously.

    From a couple of days ago…hope Theresa May ducked !!

  213. Petra says:

    Isn’t that absolutely amazing when you take into acount that on some occasions they only had one crew member, as per Rooth the Mooth? Whilst in England, where I presume they always have at least two crew members, their service is absolutely appalling. Just goes to show how competent the Scots are, eh?


    ‘Scotland’s finest, our ambulance workers, fail Scotland’s media as they cope with Hogmanay demand.’


    NHS Scotland has massively increased staffing of consultants and acute medicine specialists under SNP administration. Try telling the Daily Excess.

  214. ahundredthidiot says:

    Tories getting a kicking down south over the NHS, so wee Ruthie tries to throw in a wee Scottish Bad story to distract us and please her masters in London at the same time.

    I wonder if they even bothered calling her with the request…..probably not……’here Ruthie darling, here’s a wee sweetie for you darling’.

    And the Press only too willing.


  215. Phydaux says:

    The legitimate question to ask here is cui bono? The electorate are not being listened to, as Stuart’s poll suggests.The gender issues raised are complex and nuanced…is self certification of ones gender a quick fix?

    Will self certification help fix the tragic and preventable rates of suicide amongst men?
    Will self certification help to fix the attitudes and behaviour underpinning the violence and abuse perpetrated by ( mostly ) men towards their partners?
    Will self certification help to fix the minefield of consent in personal relationships?

    These are fundamental issues that urgently need addressed and resourced, such as a massive public education campaign, for the grown ups, and help and support for young people in our schools.

    Until this happens, no amount of quick fixes will resolve any of it.

  216. Comvox says:

    Men identifying as Transgender, without Gender Recognition Certificates – no surgery/still in a het marriage etc, are currently getting their UK passports changed to say they’re female.
    Isn’t this illegal?
    Can anyone do it?
    Is there any limit to which passport details can be changed for no reason (other than ‘I wish’)?

  217. winifred mccartney says:

    I’m not even going to pretend I understand any of these gender issues though I cannot comprehend 37 different genders – I know there are lots of people who are born one sex or intersex and feel they should be the other sex – I feel for them and they should be helped as far as we are able to.

    I understand too that many relate more to the same sex as far as relationships go – no problems there.

    There have always been men with female traits and women with male traits and often they find each other and on balance are the perfect match – we all know what we want from a relationship.

    The problem I have is that I believe today that the 1% of population, however you define it is over represented in our society and I wonder if we are not just making things more complicated for our teenagers who have a difficult enough time just getting from 12-20 without making life even more complicated and putting more stress into their heads.

  218. galamcennalath says:

    Wonder what happened with Stu’s article and speaking to lawyers regarding SiU?

    Scotland under London Rule aka SiU needs to be hounded to death!

  219. HandandShrimp says:

    Interestingly, I see the 1918-2018 commemorative £2 coin is a very contemplative “the truth untold, the pity of war”. A far cry from the jingoistic bullshit forced down our throats in 2014.

    Probably won’t please the increasingly irrelevant Mad Col Ruth McMad.

  220. David Caledonia says:

    we don’t give a damn about all this nonesense, some of us just want to live our lives in peace, so what if i want to be looked at as a Polar Bear, it comes in handy having a fur coat when its freezing in scotland… lol

  221. Ken500 says:

    NHS ‘one person’ attends. Another Press own goal. Discredited Press sinking further. They really do underestimate people’s ability to see through their lies. They just become a white noise in the background. No one believes them any more. Calling ‘wolf’ all the time.

    The public will not care how many people came to help them. They will only care that someone came quickly. A qualifed professional person came to help quickly. To help save lives, They will be grateful. Good value for money. Doctors attend alone all the time. What is the problem.?

    The Press shooting itself in the foot again. Any politician or Press attacks the NHS is in for a hammering. People will dislike the messenger. Attacking the beloved SNHS/Education system is a terrible gamble. Millions of people uses these services everyday. They know how good it can be.

    In the south fireman are using their paramedic training. To attend emergencies in less busy periods. On motor bike because of congestion.

    Weather plays a part in health. Sun, outside access Vitimin B. Scotland is colder in the winter by comparison to the south. Especially in the winter. Diet and lifestyle. A more sparsely population causing increases higher health costs and accessibility.

    Minimum pricing will help influence lifestyle choices. Alcohol harm in health issues. Minimum alcohol pricing will help SNHS resources. Coming in May. Stop lots of pain, suffering and early death. Another SNP win, win.

  222. Andy-B says:

    Scottish education in crisis, according to Tavis Scott, and a English Westminster mouthpiece news rag.

    Oh and it’s all the fault of the SNP.

  223. Ken500 says:

    The British Royal family caused the 1WW. Victoria and her grandsons. Cousins. Absolute monarchy. The ‘divine right to rule’ intermarriage and rivalry. Cousins married cousins. They should apologise or be quiet about it and stop illegal political influence and interference,

  224. Colin Alexander says:

    “by saying that Scotland had the “right to leave the UK” and the “right to choose [the] path” of independence, the British Government was recognising Scotland’s right to self-determination, even though it chose not to name it as such”.

    “1954, the Royal Commission on Scottish Affairs had acknowledged that “Scotland is a nation and voluntarily entered into union with England as a partner and not as a dependency”.22 AlsoL: “The Acts of Union of 1707 […] marked the beginning of a single multi-national state, which has become one of the most successful partnerships of nations in history.”24

    The Doctrine of the (manifesto) mandate

    “a doctrine whereby obtaining a majority in an election gives a party a political and moral mandate to implement any policy that is part of its election programme. This is a belief that all British parties (including the SNP) share and that is arguably at the very heart of the British political system”.

    “the SNP, had renounced its original plan to demand independence as soon as it won power, in favour of the promise that it would consult the population first through the holding of a referendum.”

    ( I believe referendums are corrupted into plebiscites by the politicians. That they are a “pig in a poke” con).

    Assuming the Scot Govt / SNP decide to stick with the ( in my opinion) flawed referendum method: If the UK Govt does not cooperate by a timely S30, the Scot Govt can threaten ( and if needed go through with) forcing an early Scot Parl election and have a YES election.

    The SNP or a YES coalition can use The Doctrine of the (manifesto) mandate.

    The SNP / YES could use the election manifesto mandate to achieve independence. They could even make it part of the manifesto that independists will only have a mandate to end the Union if independists win over 50.00% of the votes cast. Thus, meeting exactly the same democratic criteria as the referendum 50% +1 requirement.

    (The Strange Case of the Scottish Independence Referendum. Some Elements of Comparison between the Scottish and Catalan Cases ( Relevant Sections about Scotland – Wings printed the above link in March. I have selectively used parts of the (source) full text.)

  225. Andy-B says:

    17,000 people stuck in the back of ambulances outside English A&E’s.

  226. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    winifred mccartney at 10.39

    Thoughtful post. I can’t see any reason for the legislation but can’t see any heavy reason to oppose it.

    I think there should be ban on farting. We could employ staff with guffometers much like parking attendants. Think of the damage it is doing to the environment
    Since the banning of smoking in pubs and betting shops this has become a big issue

  227. Ken500 says:

    Maybe the people in Catalonia/authorities should do what people in Scotland did. They should take their case to the ECHR that the Spainish Gov of which they are part are denying them the ‘right to self determination’ under European Law. If the Court finds in their favour. The Spanish Gov is acting illegally under European Law and would have to allow them the right to have a legal referendum on Independence/self determination. Or as Catalonia has autonomous authority. Campaign in the Spanish Parliament to unite with others to bring about the case for the provinces in Spain to have a right to hold referendum as part of their legislation Gov in the Provinences. .

  228. Colin Alexander says:

    The acquiescence of the SNP that the UK EU-ref is binding to Scotland gives credence to the UK Tory Govt’s current propaganda that the UK is a unitary state. The “One Nation” Tory mantra.

    (The SNP’s position has changed from Scotland’s EU-ref decision must be respected, to: we want a soft Brexit that retains membership of the Single Market and Customs Union).

    Nicola Sturgeon said: ” “As things stand, Scotland faces the prospect of being taken out of the EU against our will. I regard that as democratically unacceptable.”

    It should have remained unacceptable. No compromises, no deals offered. No offers to help out with Brexit talks.

    Such an acquiescence undermines Scottish sovereignty and is damaging to the independence campaign. Not only legally and politically, but psychologically too.

    It can be seen as a tacit affirmation that even the SNP agree we have the UK and that’s it. Scotland is merely North UK region until we achieve independence. ( Which this affirmation makes it harder to do.)

    It is an affirmation of Thatcherism philosophy. Thatcher accepted Scotland could become independent, but as long as she remains part of the UK, she has to do what the UK decided for her. ( A UK which Scotland knows is clearly dominated by England’s population and England’s MPs).

  229. Ken500 says:

    In London on Remembrance Sunday. The London cabbies line up on London Bridge etc. to take the veterans home. A courtesy. A passenger in another taxi and a cab driver were discussions the situation – congestion, road closed alternative routes etc. Union flags everywhere etc. Pomp and glory. The passenger then stated the fact of the British Royals involvement in the 1WW. An historical fact. The cabbie quizzical reply ‘Do you not like the Royal family?’ Not an acknowledgement of the facts.

  230. Jack Murphy says:

    OT. Meanwhile down in the other part of this DisUnited Kingdom—- NHS England.

    “There has been a sharp rise in the number of patients facing delays when they arrive at A&E in ambulances in England, figures show.

    In the last week of 2017 there were 16,900 waits of more than 30 minutes – up by more than 40% on the previous week, NHS England said

    Delays happen when A&E staff are not available for paramedics to hand over patients to.

    Paramedics are then forced to stay with patients to keep them safe.

    Some have to wait in the back of ambulances, although many end up in waiting areas and side rooms before nurses and doctors become available.

    One in four of the delays were of more than an hour……..”

    BBC Main Page today:

  231. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think I will go with what people working in this area and and in safe spaces have to say.”

    Except those people say they favour “reform”, without specifying which reform they’re talking about. They don’t say they favour self-declaration.

  232. colin alexander says:

    Stu says:

    “Except those people say they favour “reform”, without specifying which reform they’re talking about. They don’t say they favour self-declaration.”

    My point about referendums.

    It’s a vote to change or not. But the referendum question never states what that change will be, just the idea.

    A vote for independence? Yes or No.

    Is that same Monarch, thus retaining the UNITED KINGDOM?
    Same currency? So, currency Union.
    Same economic and political Union as the rUK (and umpteen others).
    So same problems of regulations, agriculture and fisheries polices decided by others.

    It’s no fair, rUK is 10x bigger. We need independence? How bigger is the EU? Approx 60x.
    Where it’s mostly majority vote, just like the UK.

    Ah, but we’d be independent.
    Same NATO as rUK with a joint commitment to mutual defence. So, if they get dragged into a war, so do we.

    Vote NO to keep the status quo, no change.

    But a vote for No is a vote for devo-max. A vote for No means you stay in the EU, but then be out of the EU 5 years later.

    You don’t get to choose. You only get to vote YES or NO. So, nobody knows what they are voting FOR.

    Aren’t referendums wonderful. Let’s do it all again.

  233. yesindyref2 says:

    Rhodesia made a Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) on 11th November 1965, but wasn’t recognised until 1980 as Zimbabwe – 15 years later.

    Let’s not take the easy route of Indy Ref 2 but copy Rhodesia and have 15 years of turmoil and internatiaonla ostracisation and sanctions. Great idea.

  234. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    “Is that same Monarch, thus retaining the UNITED KINGDOM?”

    Such a question displays crass ignorance of what constitutes the UK. If Scotland dissolves the Treaty of Union, there is NO UK.

    As I type, Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, The Bahamas, Tuvalu and the United Kingdom all have the same monarch.

    By your understanding, the UK is part of an even bigger UK, which includes Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I’m sure Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders could put you right.

  235. Colin Alexander says:


    How many black Rhodesians / Zimbabweans were allowed to vote on Rhodesian independence?

    NONE. How much of the population did that exclude? The vast majority.

    Is anyone excluded from Scottish elections because they have the “wrong race”? No.

    That’s why Scottish independence via democratic election would be legitimate and why Rhodesia’s declaration of independence was an illegitimate coup.

  236. orri says:

    The difference between the rUK and Scotland as far as NATO membership is concerned is where we would spend money. I don’t know about anyone else but I think being able to properly equip our forces for anything short of an actual all out nuclear conflict would mean we’d be of far more value in a conventional war than the laughing stock the UK is becoming.

  237. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    colin alexander at 2.11

    “Aren’t referendums wonderful. Let’s do it all again.”

    Exactly. Well said. Simple,straightforward,definitive question with simple straightforward definitive answer.

    Do you or do you not want to be independent?

  238. colin alexander says:


    Australia decided by referendum to keep HM Queen as head of state.

    She wasn’t kept head of state on the SNP’s say so, but democratically retained.

    All I ask is that Scotland’s people are given the same democratic right to decide whether they want medieval kings or queens such as “purring Betty” or a democratically elected head of state – or no head of state – as befits a 21st century democracy.

  239. colin alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill asked Colin Alexander:

    “Do you or do you not want to be independent?”


    For those who like the idea of an indyref, they argue it cannot be refused because the sovereign people democratically voted for that. So, an indyref is undeniable because of democratic mandate.

    Exactly for the same reason why the Union can be ended: democratic mandate via election.

    Thus, the right to hold an indyref and the right to end the Union is the same.

    An indyref is just an extra unnecessary step. Because, the SNP wanted two bites at the cherry: You can vote SNP without voting for independence.

  240. shug says:

    This obsession with nonsense issues is beyond me when there are real issues relating to the survival of Scotland at stake

    The SNP need to up their game

    Where are they discussing the Labour councils discriminating against women’ wages and fighting the issue in every court.

    Where are the discussions about the trade union involvement with labour in managing how women reacted to the discrimination.

  241. colin alexander says:


    Fair point. An independent Scotland would perhaps enable Scotland to commit defence spending on non-nuclear defence / security.

    NATO is pushing for 2% of GDP commitment to defence spending, so no Trident Scotland may not save money but instead allow Scottish defence spending to be re-allocated.

    However, NATO membership commits us to mutual defence. Also, NATO membership could mean we may be unable to refuse rUK’s or French or USA nukes from entering our territory. NATO may have demanded we continue to allow rUK nukes to be based on the Clyde as part of NATO membership.

    As NATO adopted a “no comment” wait and see approach to indy Scotland, those uncertainties were never settled.

  242. yesindyref2 says:

    Good grief, it’s like having vomiting all over Wings Over Scotland with misinformation and proaganda.

    Clean up on aisle 77

  243. elizabeth frantes says:

    I live in San Francisco, and have had a lot of shall we say, “diverse” friends. But one must always keep in mind that some folks are jerks, and it’s not discrimination to call them out. There are few facilities for homeless women, and battered women without children have NO shelters. Men started claiming to be women because the women’s shelters were cleaner and much safer. WERE is the operational word. More women were forced on the streets because there wasn’t any room at the shelters, and women on the streets are abused at rates most of you wouldn’t believe. SF also has the highest % of paroled sex offenders of any city in the us, and yes, they have used the “identify as a woman” excuse to get access to victims, most of whom are already traumatized by male violence. One of the execs at Twitter raped his wife (most m-f still have functioning penises) as well as taking over the ‘women in tech’ meetings, transplaining to the ciswomen what their experiences have been. With the invasion of the daesh to the UK, this means women will have absolutely no protection in public or private facilities. So women will have the choice of stay at home in purdah or risk constant attack. The problem we’ve seen with “gender neutral” facilities in college is the men feel entitled to walk around nude, literally waving their dicks in women’s faces, and taking videos of the women showering or on the toilet. Again, women are forced to give up with little safe spaces we’ve got to accomodate male entitlment! Maybe we should just have facilities based on what you have between your legs.

  244. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Some of the btl comments on WOS are beginning to read like they’re typed by BBC Scotland employees on their coffee break.

    “Australia decided by referendum to keep HM Queen as head of state.

    She wasn’t kept head of state on the SNP’s say so, but democratically retained.”

    Why drag the SNP into supporting your premise? Because SNP BA-A-A-AD! You read like Bird, Joffrey or Bradford, grasping SNP BA-A-A-AD! from any tenuous link.

    What has SNP BA-A-A-AD! got to do with the above-mentioned independent countries retaining Queen Elizabeth (or Elizabeth, Queen of Scots) as their monarch? You’re really scraping ththrough the €®$€ of the barrel now…

  245. Orri says:

    On topic,

    The only valid reason for including “sex” on a ID document is as part of a physical description. You’d be as well self identifying as 6 foot 2 or some other absurdity.

    The trouble is using gender and sexuality interchangeably. Personally I’d go with gender being the physical appearance by default allowing for rare variations such as hermaphrodism .

    There’s the less immediately obvious genetic XX, XY, XYY and other variants

    There’s also the mental self identity or sexuality. Not really easily measured. To a greater or lesser extent potentially subject to change depending on circumstance. Depending on who you believe nature and nurture both factors.

    The last bit is where most people might balk at the idea of self identification given there’s no detail about how easy and often that declaration would be.

    Not to mention it would end any easy way of monitoring gender based discrimination. Or the physical reality involved in balancing gender specific toilet provision.

    Add to that the association with the whole bullying nature of the anti TERF thugs. Not just the threat of physical violence but the sexual coercion in the argument that a lesbian who refuses to sleep with a chick with a dick will be outed as TERF. Believe me “hen” it’s not just a lack of physical attraction that’d stop you getting laid but your sparkling personality.

  246. colin alexander says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    The point is YES, based on the SNP Scot Govt White Paper, had HM Queen automatically head of state of indy Scotland.

    The policy should have been and should be next time:

    As a fully democratic country, an independent Scotland will choose by democratic means the constitutional framework of Scotland, once Scotland is independent.

    Thus, it will be a future decision for the sovereign people of Scotland whether Scotland remains a Kingdom with HM Queen as head of state or chooses some other constitutional arrangement.

    Which former British Empire colonies retain HM Queen as head of state is irrelevant to Scotland.

  247. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    colin alexander at 9.08

    Probably because had Scotland voted YES the Queen would have remained as Head of State as that particular position was not up for any vote.
    It is not a condition of our independence. Just like Australia for instance
    You do think we are all daft, don’t you.
    Of course an independent Scotland will be able to decide on that and be allowed to do so. When it is independent.

  248. Maria F says:

    @colin Alexander

    “An indyref is just an extra unnecessary step”

    Oh Dear Colin, you are really starting to sound like a broken record. Actually, necessary or unnecessary indyref is our next step because it is already in the oven baking. Not only the Scottish Gov got a mandate for it from the electorate but also a mandate from Holyrood to request it. And requested it did. The FM officially requested that indyref to the UK gov. As far as I know, we are still waiting for TMay to dignify the request with a formal, written response, unless you know otherwise.

    Another election, which is what you appear to be so desperate for (and Slabour wants too so the British Nationalists can have another go at slimming down the SNP even more) is not even a step yet. It is not even a step yet because TMay (and her handlers) are now concerned that socialism may sneak in n10 through the back door thanks to Corbyn and that is an even bigger nightmare for the tories than having the SNP retaining 35 MPs in Westminster, so she is not going to call another GE any time soon.

    Regarding elections for the Scottish parliament, well, quite frankly, we have currently an SNP gov supported by the Green party in Parliament that is not doing bad at all. If fact comparisons are odious but they are doing remarkably well compared with the empty vessels down south. So indyref is clearly the next and fastest step to independence.

    Of course goes without mentioning that a nice, pacific referendum sells well internationally as it looks very democratic, proper and all that because it clearly shows “the will of the people”, even if only a 37% of the electorate actually voted for the winning option. You can also refuse the vote to the groups that can influence more the No vote, that is, tailor it to your needs and you of course do not need a supermajority. It’s amazing the lessons you can learn from the tories in terms of how to organise and how to win referendums.

    Dissolving the Treaty of Union simply based on an election could be an option, but quite frankly is not the best. During an election many other items are discussed and therefore I do not expect it would sell as well internationally as a referendum where only one direct question is being asked to the electorate and there is no room for confusion.

    So Colin if you really want independence start by using the tools you got in hand before even thinking about using the ones you don’t even know if they will ever be available.

  249. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    “Which former British Empire colonies retain HM Queen as head of state is irrelevant to Scotland.”

    Of course it is irrelevant. So WHY are you trying to skew the debate by typing,

    “She wasn’t kept head of state on the SNP’s say so, but democratically retained.”

    you are spouting $h!†. Why don’t you hand in your resignation? You’ve been sussed. You are now recognised here as a unionist failure. No doubt you will get a decent civil service pension on your retirement.

  250. Colin Alexander says:

    Maria F

    No issues with your point of view, except “she is not going to call another GE any time soon”, not willingly anyway.

    Alex Salmond was saying he thinks there will be another GE within two years. The UK Govt is now hanging on by its fingernails, reliant on the DUP and Tory EU rebels for a majority.

    If Brexit talks re Ireland cause DUP and Tory pro-EU rebels to turn on the Govt, the Govt could come crashing down.

    So, another GE may come whether T May wants it or not.

    An unexpected GE is something the SNP should be prepared for, just in case.

  251. Maria F says:

    @ colin Alexander

    Maybe. Let’s just wait and see.

    I however think the pro-Brexit taxdodgers, fatcats and corporations with the cash and control over the MSM know their only chance to evade EU regulations is with the Tory party, that is why I think the chances of Corbyn walking in n10 any time soon are smaller than labour actually wants to admit.

    What I do not have a shadow of a doubt is that any GE from now on will be a repeat of the farcical one in June, where Lab, LibDems and STories were fighting a completely different battle in Scotland to what they were fighting for in England.

    Say goodbye to decent politics. Here the only purpose of those 3 parties will be forever on to steal more seats from the SNP as a desperate attempt to derail the indyref, so that is another reason why we should not enter their game and thwart their plan.

    I wonder every day if the reason why the UK government has not provided a written response to the Independence Referendum request is exactly that, the hopes that the threat of another GE farce will make us forget. What do you think?

    We should not lose sight of what matters: A date for that referendum and a continuous reminder to Ms May that we are still awaiting a formal, official answer from the Uk gov to the request of an independence referendum.

  252. Maggie says:

    Thanks for this excellent article. Other areas of concern include women’s sport and women’s officer posts all being opened up to men (see for example Laurel Hubbard, NZ women’s weightlifting champion and Lily Madigan, recently elected as Women’s Officer in Rochester Constituency Labour Party – Lily expects to be able to get a womb transplant and have a baby). Male prisoners in the UK identifying as female are already being transferred to women’s prisons. Half of them are sex offenders, so hardly a good idea to house them with vulnerable women (most women in prison are not there for crimes of violence, most have mental health problems and a history of experiencing abuse). Here’s a choice specimen:

    The worst thing for me though is how the number of children and teenagers being diagnosed as transgender is rising so fast and instead of offering them therapy and support to come to terms with their body dysphoria they are often taken at their word and socially transitioned. Once a child has started living as the opposite sex it is not easy to go back to their birth sex. Most of them then proceed to puberty blockers and thence to cross hormones and possibly surgery. For a girl who is convinced she is a boy (and teenage girls are this would mean a double mastectomy and a hysterectomy. No way back from that if she changes her mind later on, and increasing numbers are doing that. Where’s the research on whether any of this is storing up health problems for the future? Where’s the attempt to correct the incorrect suicide stats that are bandied about by organisations like Mermaids and which frighten many parents into accepting their child’s transition?

    Instead of accepting the Alice-in-Wonderland statement that someone feels they have been born in the wrong body (no scientific proof exists that I know of confirming that this can ever happen) why aren’t we looking at reasons why children and young people feel this way? What about the role of porn, social media, men feeling unable to talk about their emotions, being told that’s cissy, the constant assumption that women/girls are not as good as men/boys so anything feminine must be second-rate?

  253. Jamie says:

    That’s an interesting point Maggie. I do find it curious that the vast majority of sex change operations are Male to Female. This suggests to me that this issue has far more to do with Sociology than Biology.

    It would be great if research was carried out into this area but it seems the fear of being labeled a bigot is too strong and as such reasonable reseach and debate around this area appears to be unlikely to occur.

    I was also thinking about this issue today and I thought, if I was a women (what’s to stop me from self declaring I am for 10 minutes :D) I would be concerned that all of a sudden I now have to share a toilet and changing areas with Men. Sexual assualt in the vast majority of cases is carried out by Men against Women. I think a toilet and changing area is a potentially vulnerable place, especially in public places as opposed to private gyms etc and as such I suspect there could be a rise in such crimes.

    If anyone wants to read some crazy and sexually deviant rantings, I recommend Craigslist, I know it’s not the most scientific example, but I think it gives a snapshot of the difference between Men and Women and their thinking around sex.

    For example, the posts by women generally appear to be fake or a scam, and there are reports of this being the case. In comparison, the posts by men often are hilarious, depending on your perspective, for their deviance and desperation. The sheer numbers of them far outnumbering the posts by women, suggest a numerical imbalance pointing towards men being dirty so and so’s, at least far more so than women.

    You take all this evidence into account and surely the removal of rest areas for women is just a silly and potentially dangerous idea. However, I speak as a man, this is just my perspective, I wonder what women think about such points?

  254. Only Me says:

    This psychotic extremist gibberish has come across the Atlantic from white middle class America. That dump has a LOT to answer for. It’s basically sniffy religious puritanism-cum-extremism under a different name, to make their middle class feel better about themselves because they have no real ethics or morals or values, and hate anybody who isn’t straight and white.

    Pretending to care about minorities is a great way for them to self-flagellate (we’re white and responsible for every problem in human history! Pure self-loathing narcissism) and come across as pious and pompous and preachy at the same time.

    The minorities lap it up, of course, cos now the tail is wagging the bloody dog, with ludicrous legislation like this. Of course, Nicola Sturgeon’s refusal to grow out of her 80s right-on politics, and her obsession with kowtowing to religious, sexual, and racial minorities, minorities has partly led to this as well. A total car crash from start to finish, top to bottom.

  255. Samuel says:

    Two corrections to the post above:
    1. As a practical matter, there is no such thingas the the “LGBT community.” LGB refers to a group of people demarcated by sexual orientation, in particular, their stable attraction to their own sex. Transgender is an umbrella term which encompasses numerous subgroups of people, none of whom are demarcated by sexual orientation or sexuality, and most of whom are not LGB. LGB and T were artificially lumped together by US activists in the 1990s, but LGBT is a fiction.
    2. The poll does not appear to include transgender respondents. The majority of LGB respondents reject the proposed law, as all sane people should.

  256. Addison says:

    I think the amount of men in the comments saying how this won’t impact anyone and we should just let live even though they fully admit they don’t understand the implications is telling.

    It’s worrying to me they see no issue with the likes to Danielle muscato types being allowed access to women only spaces such as rape centers. Maybe they can explain why a traumatized woman has less rights than a man that feels his way into being a woman?

    I think a vast majority of people don’t care how the individual identifies. The issues start when you begin making law over a person’s personal feelings and ignoring the people that already inhabit that box.

    Maybe these men will feel differently when their daughters are having to change in front of grown men in the swimming pool. But by then it’ll be too late and enshrined in law. Just like the law that facilitated a grown man sexually molesting a young girl in the toilets in the USA. A fair sacrifice for the ego of men, I’m sure

    Half of women killed last year were done so by their partner. Scream intolerance and equality all you want, and my lord isn’t it easy to do as a white man, but maybe when you fully admit you don’t understand this 100% you should sit back and listen rather than type your pathetic pleas to tolerance. It’s not progressive.

    Your opinion isn’t needed.

  257. Iz says:

    Feel kinda betrayed, my friend 🙁 just want an X on my passport and to be able to go on T & get a double mastectomy ( gotta pay for that myself, no clue how hahah when will the dysphoria end pls) The cherry picked ‘kill terfs’ type thing was a nice touch- generally the consensus is ‘terfs leave us alone’. I’m also sure this legislation is gonna be scrutinised to minimise abuse, iirc the absolute minimum waiting time was 6 months which is a massive improvement on the waiting time of about 1 and a half years to even start the process under the current situation (that’s not including the consultations which cost about 250 a pop and the 2 years socialisation- dysphoria tends to get folk before then, that’s why they end up dead)

    People worrying about letting transwomen in womens bathrooms are forgetting about FTM folk and Transmasc nonbinary peoples that will be stuck there- you want a buff bearded fella forced into the ladies room???? Most people just go into there to do thier business and leave- if anyones harassing folk then they need to get dealt with.

    also @ the people who are saying ‘these are entitled middle class people’ trans folk tend to be poor and often homeless as they are ostracised from family n friends

  258. johnj says:

    If you’ve got a knob, go to the gents.
    If you’ve a fanny, go to the ladies.

    I thought of writing ‘if you sit down to pee go to the ladies’ until I remembered that as a man of a certain age I sit down to pee, at home at least.

  259. blackhack says:

    It surely can’t get any worse….But it does.
    I’m sick of the whole thing, if you have a penis, then you’re a man, if you have a uterus/ovaries then you’re a woman.

    There you go, sorted.

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