The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Full ahead backwards

Posted on May 19, 2023 by

Just slightly under four weeks ago, this site told you It seems very much as though the strategy has reverted to ‘Beg the UK government for a Section 30, and when they refuse, wait a while then beg them again'”.

Once again, we’re dismayed to report that we called it right. Because last night SNP MSP Mairi McAllan, officially representing the party on Question Time, told a weary audience in Fort William that that was precisely the case.

And readers, if ever a policy has been tested in battle and found wanting, it’s that one.

When a gobsmacked Fiona Bruce questioned what the SNP would do when the UK government refused yet again, as it did again last month and has been consistently and firmly doing for the last seven years, McAllan said:

“I don’t accept that we just perpetually continue in a UK state that doesn’t recognise democracy, that is completely unsustainable.”

Readers might find that word a little familiar.

Nicola Sturgeon used it in a speech in November 2022:

[SPOILER: it was sustained until she resigned three months later.]

She’d previously said it in April 2021, promising that if a pro-indy majority was elected at Holyrood in that year’s election, the UK government’s resistance would crumble.

[SPOILER: a pro-indy majority was elected. Resistance did not crumble.]

She’d said it eight months earlier too, in August 2020.

[SPOILER: the SNP won the election. The UK refused again.]

She’d also said it seven months earlier, in January 2020.

[SPOILER: Johnson sustained it all the way to his resignation in July 2022.]

She’d also said it in October 2019.

[SPOILER: there was not a second independence vote in 2020.]

She’d said it five months before then, in May 2019:

[SPOILER: the UK government did not recognise a democratic outrage.]

She’d said it in May 2017, insisting that if the SNP won a majority of Scottish seats at the 2017 UK general election Theresa May would give in.

[SPOILER: the SNP won a majority of seats. Theresa May did not give in.]

She’d also said it in April 2017, noting that the block had never been tested in court.

[SPOILER: it was subsequently tested in court, and was sustained.]

When Fiona Bruce pressed McAllan on the SNP’s strategy for overcoming this block, she said “my party has a job to do to get support for independence up beyond 50%, up to 55, 60%, because at the point the democracy denial that we’re experiencing from the UK government I think has to collapse”.

But two days after Sturgeon’s August 2020 comment, support HAD increased to 55%, at which point Sturgeon’s then-deputy Keith Brown repeated the “unsustainable” line.

But spoiler, readers – it wasn’t. Yes would go on to hold a lead in the polls for almost a solid year between May 2020 and April 2021, peaking at 59% in October 2020 and exceeding 55% five times, and the UK government just kept right on sustaining.

It almost defies belief that the party sent McAllan out to robotically recite the ancient texts in the hope that all their remaining members and supporters have the memory capacity of goldfish, except that nothing the SNP does any more is unbelievable. Its race is run and its game is over. Its only goal now is to desperately cling to seats on the gravy bus for as many of its politicians and hangers-on as possible, and it will do and say whatever absurdities it thinks will achieve that aim.

The last time its leader told the truth about independence was in 2016.

Any genuine pursuit of the party’s historic purpose is now simply a fantasy, a carrot endlessly dangled in front of the infinitely gullible once or twice a year when their votes are required. And if you don’t want to take our word for that, you can always listen to its own Westminster leader.

(“More powers”? “Concessions”? Don’t be coy, lads, we know you mean the GRR.)

Last night’s Question Time was merely the final insult in a long series of insults. Mairi McAllan’s performance could have been quite convincingly replicated by a pumpkin on a stick hooked up to ChatGPT.

Indeed, just for fun we actually asked the popular AI bot the question in the video at the start of this article, and we would defy anyone to distinguish it in any meaningful way from a transcript of what McAllan really said.



The SNP as any kind of a credible vehicle for independence is dead. Under Humza Yousaf it’s demonstrably in reverse. The time has come to scrap it and start again.

In fact, given that its suggested strategy (above) shows considerably more imagination and insight than we’ve heard under Yousaf – see points 5 and 6 in particular – maybe it’s time to give ChatGPT the job.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

0 to “Full ahead backwards”

  1. Neil Mackenzie

    So, how do we establish that the right to choose independence is a right peoples inherently have rather than a concession that the UK government can withhold or permit?

    Personally, I thought the first few paragraphs of the United Nations Charter already did that but apparently …

  2. 100%Yes

    Watching yesterday Question time, we were able to astatine certain facts we in the Alba Party already knew but the NUSNP weren’t prepared to ever say until now, 1 The SNP policy on Independence is the obtain a section 30 until the UKG grants one even if it takes twenty years. 2 The opinion polls have to say a continuous lead for Independence at 60% 3 Only when the threshold of 60% has been met will the SNP say that democracy is being denied and will only then confront the UKG. For anyone listen to QT yesterday will have noticed that the SNP has no intention of holding a convention or using any form of election to obtain Independence, the party is in the union for a long time to come. So, I’d like to know why was the FM asking the SNP membership to dig deep for Indyref2 when 1 their policy is a section 30 only and 2 until the UKG grants a section 30 their will never be a Referendum on Independence, so why is Humza Yousless asking for money when he already knows this?

  3. Mia

    If you claim with a straight face like this woman has done in the video above that the S30 is “the gold standard” then you cannot claim “I want independence” within the same sentence and expect credibilty for that.

    Either you want independence or you want (or claim to want) the S30. Both of them are incompatible. They are incompatible becasue the S30 equals to handing a veto to Westminster/the crown to stop Scotland’s independence.

    After wasting almost 9 years of our time, after driving us through a blind alley for most of those, if you did not realise the S30 is only the gold standard to preserve the UK, then you either are an idiot, or you thing the people of Scotland are idiots who do not realise you have no intention nor interest whatsoever in progressing independence and are just stringing them along.

    The current Labour as the SNP Scot gov cabinet are nothing but parrots repeating the political fraud Sturgeon’s worn out soundbites. Empty vessels that is what they are. This lady is just a fine example of that. Too many words to say absolutely nothing.

    Time to chuck them out from our seats. All of them.

  4. dearieme

    The British government should announce that there will be a Scottish Indyref under its aegis. The question will be “Do you want your constituency to secede from the United Kingdom?”

    Alternatively it could organise a referendum restricted to England & Wales and NI asking “Do you want Scotland to be expelled from the UK?”.

    Or, wotthehell, do both.

  5. 100%Yes

    At the next Westminster election the NUSNP will use some sort of lie about Independence to get votes and the only things they will have achieved is to tie Scotland into the Union until we the people are asked again. Under the NUSNP we are on a Merry-go-round and we’ll stay on it until we STOP VOTING and SUPPORTING THE NUSNP. I have no idea how many times I’ve said this and I’ll say it again (It isn’t the UKG that’s stopping democracy its the NUSNP).

  6. Ladybirdonfire.

    Everyone in Scotland knows that come Scotland’s split from Westminster and the end of the union is also the end of the SNP. Is anyone in any doubt that the whole party and it’s hangers-on in the Scottish Greens are just in it to keep the train on the tracks and the gravy flowing? The other independence parties could go with the slogan “Vote independence to be rid of the SNP” and very likely increase their voter share. The losers here are the Scottish people who should never forgive this treachery.

  7. Jason Smoothpiece

    As I see it we have a simple problem.

    The SNP is a party of devolution simple.

    The SNP are scared to admit they are a party of devolution.

    The SNP should now step forward and tell the truth and campaign for greater powers for the Scottish Government.

    The field should be cleared for Alba ISP and other true independence campaigning parties to pursue independence.

    The SNP would be free to attract pro devolution supporters.

  8. Ottomanboi

    The British government and opposition are now more “nationalist» than the SNP.
    No way would independence be conceded even if a substantial majority supported it.
    It is just not the way Westminster thinks with regard to losing a third of territory, vital natural resources, Lebensraum etc.
    Much more experienced in dirty tricks strategies than the naïve creatures in the SNP BritGov could ride out any political storm through the tight control it can exercise on media, state propaganda and international opinion, when required. Remember, despite «the troubles» Northern Ireland is still British.
    Nothing new there really, except if you’ve been living in a cave for decades.

  9. Johnlm

    Back in the day, when I went to school, it was crap.
    I left my kind and loving home to face people arguing, fighting and challenging my beliefs.
    Corners got knocked off, arguments shaped and my view of the world evolved.
    Modern schools seem nicer. They have skipped the debate part. Every one is affirmed (or steered?) in their beliefs.
    Everyone gets a medal (and a highly paid government job obviously).

  10. 100%Yes

    @Jason Smoothpiece

    The SNP are now saying they rather have more power than Independence,

    Stephen Flynn suggests SNP could back Labour without independence referendum.

  11. Astonished

    McAllan reminds me of Sturgeon.

    May I add to the calls – They have all got to go.

    What an absolute shower of charlatans.

  12. Daphne

    Please excuse the breenge but here’s a film no one will ever see on the BBC. It is the story of an activist from Musselburgh who campaigned during a certain referendum. You know the one we we’re told nobody wanted. The one 96% of Scotland ended up registering to vote in, yup, that one. The trailer looks good.

  13. Ruby

    I thought the questions, the audience & Alex Salmond were all excellent not impressed with the AI bots from the SNP, Labour or the Tories.

    The journalist didn’t say much just showed off that she knew words like stooshie & bourach (which had to be translated)

    FYI bourach is Gaelic. You can add that one to your list just before brochan. 🙂

    Stepford Wife Malfunction

  14. Stuart MacKay

    Sorry Rev, but a pumpkin hooked up to Chat GPT would have been a clear winner:

    Me: Should Scotland be an independent country?

    ChatGPT: As an AI language model, I don’t possess personal opinions or the ability to advocate for a particular stance. Whether Scotland should be an independent country is a complex and subjective matter that depends on various factors and perspectives. The question of Scottish independence has been the subject of debate for many years.

    Proponents of Scottish independence argue that it would grant Scotland greater control over its own affairs, including decisions on governance, economy, and social policies. They believe that being an independent country would better reflect the aspirations and priorities of the Scottish people and enable them to shape their own future.

    On the other hand, opponents of Scottish independence argue that remaining part of the United Kingdom provides Scotland with certain advantages, such as shared resources, security, and stability. They believe that the union between Scotland and the other nations of the UK brings economic benefits, political influence, and a stronger international standing.

    Ultimately, the decision on whether Scotland should be an independent country is up to the Scottish people and their elected representatives. It involves considering various factors, including the economic implications, political considerations, historical context, cultural identity, and the preferences of the citizens themselves.

    I’m going to ask it if it wants to stand for election – it’s clearly streets ahead in the pro-independence debate.

  15. Neil Mackenzie

    Is there a test to establish whether withholding S30 is legally sound given the international right of peoples to self determination? I can’t see how it can be.

  16. Bob Mack

    Mr Flynn was right on one point. It is time Scotland’s voice was heard in Parliament. Accompanied by some action or inacgion to make it heard. Since the last referendum we have seen nothing but begging and pleading to let us try again whist all the time those representing us bend the knee to Westminster and it’s rules and protocols.

    We need fight not flight. Nothing I have heard from the SNP indicates they have the necessary mindset to engage in that battle. We as a people have the right to choose our leaders and that no longer includes those posing as Independence champions whilst pocketing hefty salaries as a gratuity for operating the con job on behalf of Westminster.

    Too often have our leader sold our rights for their own ends.

  17. 100%Yes

    A woman in the audience said I’m not going to vote for the SNP and SNP MSP Mairi McAllan said I’ll come and talk to you about it, well the SNP are going to be talking to a lot of folk.

    I take it while she been and aid to Sturgeon she picked all the banter.

  18. Mike Fenwick

    Re 3: International Engagement: The Yes movement through an initiative named “The Declaration of a Sovereign Scot” have been so engaged since 2021. Below (minus the referenced photo) is the latest update issued this week as the initiative begins reaching out, from its initial engagement with the Secretary General of the United Nation at its HQ in New York, to individual UN Member States.

    Update text:

    The Declaration of a Sovereign Scot’ initiative … An update. I am currently preparing the first of what will be a series of letters. To whom?

    It will be a series of letters to individual UN Members – particularly those who a) have gained their independence from the UK, and/or b) have instigated and/or supported Resolutions related to self-determination.

    When since April 2021, signed Declarations have been lodged with the Secretary General of the United Nations, they have been accompanied by a letter, with each letter listing UN Resolutions that relate to self-determination.

    When I write to the UN Member countries they will be given copies of all the earlier letters issued to the Secretary General, so that they are also given that same list of UN Resolutions about the right to self-determination.

    Bear in mind, very clearly, that these are the very Resolutions that as UN Member States they themselves have adopted and passed as binding.

    They will also be given a copy of the photo below. I have left some content visible, but not it all. Why? Verification!

    In writing I will be advising the individual UN Members that the Secretary General of the United Nations has all the originals of signed Declarations, and of the letters which accompanied them when sent.

    Thus they should, if required, make contact with him to verify:

    1) their accuracy,

    2) to obtain access to the full version of the Declaration,

    3) to ensure themselves that they do indeed contain the individual signatures of Sovereign Scots from the length and breadth of Scotland.

    This is the first part of Stage 2 in this initiative, I will update it as it develops.

  19. Stuart MacKay

    Of course I should have read the rest of the post before running off and logging in. Ah, well.

  20. panda paws

    I thought I wasn’t impressed by what she said until I looked at the audience’s faces! ChatGPT would probably be better than SOME of the current elected SNP politicians who seem to lack any sort of intelligence, artificial or otherwise!

  21. Andrew F

    I like this quote:

    “…a carrot endlessly dangled in front of the infinitely gullible…”

    Together with the concept of “Gold Standard” it reminds me of the injections.

    “We can all be free again, just as long as 55% are injected”.

    “….or 60% … or 65%… or 75% …80% (etc…).. are injected”.

    Maybe SNP just need two weeks to unflatten the curve?

    Those who will sacrifice freedom for security will lose both, and deserve neither.

  22. Beauvais

    By making a Section 30 a necessity the SNP have dealt the entire deck of cards to London and have been persuading the faithful that they’re trying to win with an imaginary hand.

  23. Beauvais

    To have ever believed the indy strategy of Ally of the Year you’d be in line for Wally of the Year.

  24. ScotAI

    ChatGPT often needs as much contextual information as possible in the prompt to help give a more accurate response. In my case I asked it to consider a UN charter, a manifesto pledge as well WM’s refusal to a s30. Here’s the four steps it came up:

    Advisory Referendum: The Scottish Parliament could potentially hold a non-binding, advisory referendum on independence. However, this would likely be legally challenged by the UK Government, potentially in the Supreme Court. The outcome would depend on the court’s interpretation of whether holding such a referendum falls within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.
    Elections as a Proxy: Another possibility might be to use general elections, or perhaps specifically convened Scottish Parliamentary elections, as a de facto referendum. If pro-independence parties campaigned on a clear independence platform and won a substantial majority, they could argue that they have a democratic mandate for independence. The UK Government might dispute this interpretation, however, leading to political and possibly legal conflict.
    Negotiations and Diplomatic Pressure: If there was clear and sustained evidence of majority support for independence in Scotland, the Scottish Government might attempt to put diplomatic pressure on the UK Government to agree to a referendum, or to negotiate independence directly. This could involve lobbying international support, particularly from the EU and major democratic powers, in hopes that international pressure might sway the UK Government. However, international interference in domestic issues is a sensitive subject, and this strategy could potentially backfire.
    Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI): In extreme circumstances, the Scottish Parliament could issue a UDI, asserting independent sovereignty without the agreement of the UK Government. This would be a drastic step, likely leading to significant legal and political conflict. It could also create problems for Scotland’s international recognition and status.

  25. Paul

    The complete silence from the audience that greeted McAllan’s comments was very telling. I would have expected at least a ripple of support from some clapping seal Sturgeon loyalists.

  26. ScottieDog

    No doubt 100k McAllan can wait wait indefinitely. Can’t imagine what AS must feel listening to the cuckoo in the nest.

  27. James Che

    The question should be.

    If the Scottish parliament was refused access to the treaty of the union more that 300 years ago by becoming dissolved and extinguished in England.

    Why do the Scots not walk away?

    The answer is simple.

    Many find it hard to understand how a dissolved extinguished Scottish parliament is still supposed to be part of a treaty of union for the last 300 years if its not true.
    Many find it hard to digest,
    Many find it very difficult to think that they could have been scammed for such a long period of time.

    Bluff, hoodwinked, deceit, lies and cover ups.

    There would be no succession State.
    There would be no UDI.
    There could be no challenge made TO….a parliament that is dissolved and extinguished.
    There could be no supreme Court of a disbanded UK to challenge a….extinguished dissolved Scottish Parliament.
    The rule to observe here is that Scotlands parliament was dissolved and extinguished in England.
    From the Treaty.
    The monarch nor the parliament of England dissolved the old English Westminster parliament in England.


  28. Ian Smith

    We should start a sweep on what day Mairi MacAllen erases being an aid to Sturgeon from her CV and government bio.

  29. Antoine Bisset

    Ladybirdonfire. says:
    “19 May, 2023 at 2:57 pm
    Everyone in Scotland knows that come Scotland’s split from Westminster and the end of the union is also the end of the SNP.”
    Quite so. Indeed it is right that that should be so. It has been pointed out to Douglas Ross that there will be a conservative Party in an independent Scotland.
    It would not hurt the case for independence if the Scottish government could show some semblance of competence in running the country. They do not, and never have. It has got much worse over the past few years.
    The particularly dispiriting aspect is that there are people in Scotland who can run things. They are not in the government. The government could hire competent people to do things, yet even when they have tried that they have become spectacularly unstuck.
    (When I say this I am setting aside the possibility that big “bribes” are available with big contracts.)

  30. ayemachrihanish

    Stu, that is one of your best ever… to actually ask an AI bot the question and then, as you say, defy anyone to distinguish it in any meaningful way from a transcript of what the half-wit McAllan said.

    The SNP simply vomit Queen Nicola botscript as reality..

  31. Antoine Roquentin

    Any further discussion of the SNP and it’s role in gaining independence for Scotland is, in my opinion, a waste of time and, like opiate addiction, is a habit well-worth breaking. If only because the euphoria experienced with the first-hit can never be replicated, no matter how deeply the addict might believe that it can be, regardless of how much valuable time is squandered in defiance of that simple truth.

  32. stuart mctavish

    I liked the bit where she denied she had drawn the short straw and instead reinforced how proud she was to be there representing SNP.

    That said, if she’s serious about letting Humza’s sponsors force their S30 capitulations down her throat then maybe she should consider the merits of changing Scotland’s motto to please sir, penny for a cuppa – and reflect on how delightfully modern it will look alongside France’s liberté, égalité, fraternité, USA’s in God we trust, India’s truth alone triumphs and even Pakistan’s faith, unity, discipline, etc

  33. Mia

    “Refusing Indyref2 would be unsustainable for the Uk government”

    And for the SNP too. Because it is not really the Uk government who has been refusing and continue to refuse indyref2 for the last 6 years, is it Nicola Sturgeon?

    No, it is not. It was you, your continuity candidate and the apparatchicks within your Labour as the SNP who have done so by deliberately ignoring Scotland’s popular sovereignty and handing unnecessary vetoes over Scotland independence to Westminster and the crown instead.

    Who do you think you were fooling?

    Did you think we would never realise it was you all along who had been stalling Scotland’s independence and preserving the union instead?

    During Sturgeon the SNP morphed into labour. The only place where this gang of worthless charlatans and political frauds belongs is in Scotland’s bin of political waste.

    Time to eject this useless SNP carcass from our seats. From every single one of them.

  34. Karen Busher

    So I ask, HOW can Scotland become independent? How can Scotland even have a vote on the matter? Westminster is ignoring what is clearly a mandate for a referendum. Does the British Gov never learn lessons from ignoring democracy and refusing people the right to vote? It seems to me that the next step in this debacle is what happened in Northern Ireland in 1969 when civil rights were denied to the Catholic/Nationalist minority. Is that what they want for this country? Watch the BBC2 documentary “Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland” on Monday at 9pm and see if you can spot the similarities to Scotland in 2023. The arrogance of the British establishment is out of control.

  35. Anton Decadent

    Re Scotlands motto, it should be “Put the lotion in the basket.”

    Re AI and gonks, older readers of Private Eye will remember Birtspeak.

  36. Doug

    I see Wishart is laying down his conditions before he lends his universally-lauded intellect and world-renowned integrity to any Yes convention. Boke.

  37. Wally Jumblatt

    Why do people keep thinking good things can happen while the Sturgeon regime remains in power -which they do.

    You all either have to stop voting SNP, or clean out the stables from within.
    You aren’t going to make any start to clean out the stables until you can nominate your own candidates for election.

    You can’t get 50% of the electorate to support the idea of independence, until the party (whatever party) can prove it will run a competent government.

    So, whatever else happens, independence is a decade away. And that day won’t get any closer the longer we take to start removing the Sturgeon virus.

    The mainstream media is not going to allow rehabilitation of Alex Salmond any time soon, so if Alba is the solution then it’s on an even longer timeline.

  38. Mia

    “HOW can Scotland become independent?”

    By substituting the worthless carcass of the SNP currently wasting our parliamentary seats with a political party worth of our vote, which acts on behalf of the people of Scotland and not on behalf of the crown, their pension funds or their own pockets.

    “Does the British Gov never learn lessons from ignoring democracy and refusing people the right to vote?”

    But it is not the British Gov who is ignoring democracy and the right of Scotland as a nation to self-determine, is it? No, It is the SNP. It is the SNP who was given a mandate for a referendum, not the political parties in control of Westmisnter.

    It is our Sgov and parliament who are responsible for terminating the ToU after the fundamental conditions of the treaty and our claim of right have been repeatedly violated since the Brexit vote to the detriment of Scotland’s interests.

    It is our SNP gov who has been handing repeatedly vetoes to Westminster and the crown to stop that referendum and a vote on independence.

    If we haven’t had indyref yet it is because the SNP, since Sturgeon took over, has refused to act as a party of Scotland’s government and they have acted as colonial administrators.

    We already have 3 useless devolutionist parties. We don’t need another one fabricating obstacles to prevent Scotland exercising its legitimate right to self-determination and to terminate the treaty.

    Time to eject these worthless charlatans and timewasters from our seats.

  39. Luigi

    Sigh. The current SNP politicians look and sound so out of their depth. Wot a bunch of lightweights – are there no big hitters left in the SNP? This harping on about “gold standard” section 30s is sheer desperation. The Supreme court decision killed off that little gem (well done, Nicola) and they now have run out of ideas. All reactions and soundbites, with no real planning or execution. Pathetic.

    They just haven’t a clue what to do but they do realise that they have to do something (or be seen to be doing something). And so, they hide under their Section 30 comfort blanket, hoping that we will just go away (after voting for them, of course). No courage either (forgivable) and no grace to seek common cause, advice and ideas from the wider indy movement (unforgivable).

    Bottom line – the current SNP players are simply not up to the task. Student politics and soundbites fine, but a real fight for independence? No chance. Way way out of their depth. Are there any big hitters left in the SNP, or have they all gone over to Alba? All I can see is student fluff.

  40. Doug

    Wally Jumblatt 4:58pm

    “…competent government”.

    Never has been such a thing, never will be.

    Government [however incompetent] is the end, not the means.

  41. Colin Alexander

    Let’s face the reality here:

    It’s no just the SNP.

    There are NO Scottish politicians who will assert the sovereignty of the people of Scotland. Not one will refuse to swear allegiance to England’s king / head of the UK state.

    Not one is prepared to give up their MP salary and chance for power under the UK system of imperial government.

  42. A Scot Abroad

    Given that there’s no majority support (yet) for independence, and no redouble set of policies for how a future independent Scotland would operate in a global economy, wouldn’t it be better to start thinking about what independence would mean in reality, and then persuade Scots to support those aims? Get those right, and it will be very hard for Westminster to refuse another referendum.

    At the moment, there’s not enough support for independence, so it’s a bit pointless to keep asking for a referendum.

  43. A Scot Abroad

    Should be “reliable” in my comment above, not redouble.

    A further thought. It’s not actually very good politics for the indy movement to keep calling for referenda if everyone knows that it isn’t going to win those referenda if granted. Not only do referenda cost money and take time to organise, they sap energy from going into other policies and projects that are good for Scotland. Once in a generation is about enough, and it’s 2035 that’s a generation on from 2014. It’s going to take until 2035 to develop the policies, so going early isn’t wise.

  44. Anton Decadent

    Slightly O/T

    A couple of days ago I posted a link to an article with regard to a challenge on the leadership of Glasgow Labour. It failed, but by a smaller margin than expected. What this article fails to mention but the previous one I linked to did is that Philip Braat, a Belgian, is the choice of the Greens who had stated that unless he was leader of Glasgow Labour they would not go into a coalition with Scottish Labour.

    The only way for us to have a stake in our own futures is to be in charge of them, not a coalition of hostile minority interests, one look at the USA or England just now shows where that leads. Letting the Greens in was suicide for a nationalist group, these people despise nationalists unless they can weaponise them against a larger state. By that I mean that these are not Greens, it is a Bolshevik front operation.

  45. James Che

    The alternative is we walk away from the parliament paradise for perverted laws being passed in Scotland while under Westminsters legislation which always needs Royal assent before it is accepted as new Scots law,

    How about reopening our own true parliament in Scotland?
    After all it was only dissolved and extinguished from Westminsters treaty in England.

  46. Mia

    “Given that there’s no majority support (yet) for independence”

    There wasn’t a majority for brexit in England before the EU referendum was called. Yet, it was called.

    Why the double standards when it comes to Scotland’s independence?

  47. John C

    Westminster can hold off granting a Section 30 for as long as the PM has a clear majority, so Sunak doesn’t need to do anything especially as the SNP are putting him under absolutely no pressure at all.If Starmer has a huge majority it’ll be the same, especially if as it looks, support for independence is steady but fails to grow having lost our one big chance with Brexit.

    The fact is the SNP and Greens are perfectly happy with the current setup. Devolution means they have massive power and the SNP have a toe in the power structure of the UK. Sure, they’ll wheel Mhairi Black out to spout a speech about how awful the Tories are (as if we didn’t know that by now) as she cosplays as working class while presenting zero alternatives to them. And of course Black, Flynn, etc avoid the SNP’s own austerity program partly induced by Westminster and partly because the SNP/Greens have decided the poor and working class are no longer the type of people they want to help. If only they were Trans…

  48. Iain More

    I no longer call it the definition of insanity. I now call it the definition of treason!!!!

  49. Robert Louis

    Meanwhile, in London toon, a weary and feart Rishi Sunak stresses over those ‘rebellious Scots’ he’d like to crush.

    RS: ‘permanent private secretary (civil servant), what on earth will I do about those damned Scots wanting independence’?

    PPS: Just keep telling them they cannot have a section 30. The Scotgov have made it clear they will ONLY try that approach, so we just keep saying NO. It’s easy.

    RS: Really, is that all I need to do?

    PPS: Yes. It’s now been written into the Westminster ministerial code, and the refusal is automatic. They ask, and an automatic letter gets sent back, with the sig of whoever the PM happens to be that day. sometimes we send it out, before the even ask, just in case. it’s a hoot. BOJO, May, and even Truss did it. You don’t actually need to do anything.

    RS: Excellent. Thank heavens for the SNP.

  50. James Jones

    James Che at 6:25 pm
    “The alternative is we walk away from the parliament paradise for perverted laws being passed in Scotland while under Westminsters legislation which always needs Royal assent before it is accepted as new Scots law.

    How about reopening our own true parliament in Scotland?
    After all it was only dissolved and extinguished from Westminsters treaty in England.”

    What powers would this Parliament give itself, and how would Westminster and the international community react?

  51. Stephen O'Brien

    When confronted with deliberate stall tactic from SNP, the electorate must take deliberate action, to oust the offending politicians.

    Certain individuals within SNP should be informed that their time is up, as elected members of parliament. A concerted boycott of the ballot, the only solution.

    The people will rightly decide that ‘now is not the time’ for fraudsters!

    At least then, the delay, in the hands of the electorate. The boycott only lifted, when an election manifesto for independence, is enabled by future candidates.

    Presently, to continue to vote SNP, a complete waste of energy and should be discouraged at every opportunity.

  52. Kcor

    “The SNP as any kind of a credible vehicle for independence is dead. Under Humza Yousaf it’s demonstrably in reverse. The time has come to scrap it and start again.”


  53. Ian

    The SNP doesn’t really have a reason to exist any more. It only ever had one core purpose and now they have been stripped of that, they are becoming an object of ridicule and satire. The flimsy and futile attempts to cover it up, which they have done with some success for at least 6 years, are now tired and tattered rags which can’t cover up their exposed excuses and evasions. The emperor has no clothes and it isn’t a pretty sight as they try to insist that he does. They haven’t come to terms with the reality yet, so used to the ridiculous salaries and perks they have enjoyed for years. It is a rude awakening for them to find out people simply don’t believe them any more, they have got away with sloganising and blame the tories for years, as if that was all that was required. Just look at the hilarious WGD, no doubt paid for by them, as he pretends there is absolutely nothing to see, and continues to churn out the thousandth article on how awful the tories are – this is the mentality, and how dare you question it. If you do, well of course it is your fault for damaging the indy cause. Like the tories, it is always somebody else’s fault, and they will always gang up to protect themselves and their favoured, funded support network. It is pitiful, and they can’t see it at all.

  54. Alan Inman

    Why is no one mentioning the Tory who said “We believe Scotland can become the most successful economic area, outside London, in the UK”? I doubt that will ever be repeated by a Tory again!

  55. Lorna Campbell

    I know I shouldn’t have laughed, Rev, because I could weep for independence, but the way you laid all that out just made me giggle. “It’s no sustainable, by the way,” except that it always is sustainable. Brilliant. I cannot think of a time in my lifetime when so many insane and moronic people were gathered in one place and drawing large salaries for being moronic and insane. The SNP is a dead party walking. She doesn’t want to be wrangling with Westminster for another twenty years. Don’t worry, hen, you won’t be warming your seat for much longer. Alex Salmond’s wry smile says it all: ‘Been there, lassie, done it, got the T-shirt. It ain’t going to work a second time”.

  56. 100%Yes

    Why do people keep talking and blaming Westminster and UKG for the section 30 process. When its the SNP that are perpetuating the excuse of a section 30 order to deny Scotland and its people Independence and then blaming the politicians south of the border when its our own SNP government who’s denying democracy.

    Any power that the UK government have over Scotland and its people have been gifted by the SNP, by their subservience to the British (English) state. The SNP MP’s and MSP@s actually embrace the section 30 order and the fact that it isn’t being granted, cos this keeps them in a job and living the good life.

    Come on people Alex said himself there are many routes to Independence and the SNP are refusing to acknowledge or act on any of them including the UN.

    The SNP promised a referendum, then took it to the British Supreme court knowing it would fail. They did this because they knew Sturgeon was running out of time and couldn’t keep refusing to give a date. They also promised the party was going to hold a special conference and never held it.

    What is it going to take for idiots to realize that the enemy is within and not the British state. MI6, MI5 or any other organization isn’t to blame for Scotland being still in this union.

    The SNP are deliberately making policies that will cause the general public to turn against them.

    For anyone watching QT as I did, Alex Salmond was being treated with respect. But we had a SNP MSP who was elected on a ticket of delivering Independence and then refusing to act.

    People there is a lot of cash converters within the the Independence movement who say they want independence but in reality it affects their pay-packet at the end of the month or they are making a living out of writing bout independence, or going on SKY news talking about it. Some have even asking us all to gather at certain places within Scotland to protest about the Supreme courts ruling when they should have been questing Nicola Sturgeon motives for taking it there in the first place.

  57. Iain mhor

    So, a referendum is the gold standard eh? Well then, once (if) we achieve independence by other means, then we hold one – there will be nothing stopping us.
    I think people forget, that there is usually a fair process involved in transitioning to full independence – plenty of T,s to cross and handshakes, and foties – or red faces, and spittle – probably both.

    Scotland could hold a referendum before the second round of tea and biscuits at the negotiating tables, because whatever the means, Westminster’s writ has been rejected, and no longer runs.

    Scotland holds a referendum, and lets say votes to re-enter the Union? Fine, draw up the new articles, and call for fresh biscuits – you could be Independent, then back in the UK before bath night.
    Except this time, the Articles might be a bit better drawn up than: “Gies a few bob to clear our gambling debts, and ye can own Scotland” – signed: A handful of roasters.
    Or maybe we’d actually have the balls to vote Indy instead.

    Whatever way the vote went, perhaps someone could explain who this “International Community” is, who would condemn that process – what are they going to say exactly?

    “Aye, ye held a referendum about Independence after ye unlawfully seceeded, I think, and that’s err… undemocratic, and not, err…well, it’s the most democratic, but ye see a referendum… so ye shouldn’t have held… I mean ye should have held, but… sorry, run it by us again?”

  58. Dumbarton Rock

    Mairi McAllan was like a rabbit caught in the headlights. Promoted way above her level of intelligence but bursting with confidence. An obnoxious woman. She showed no respect for the experienced politicians on the panel – Alex Salmond and Jackie Baillie. Not a creative thought in her head. Depressing

  59. Tinto Chiel

    Unfortunately, I caught Channel Four news tonight re drag acts in Tennessee primary schools. This was framed by C4 as right-wing evangelicals trying to bully poor wee drag queens just wanting to express themselves (ignoring the blatantly sexual aspect of their “acts”). There then followed a extensive interview with said drag queens claiming victim status straight out of the LGBT+ handbook.

    This was just the usual C4 Guardianista schtick, like when Matt Frei shamelessly denied the Fascist Azov Battalion existed in the country east of Poland in his interview with a senior R*ssian diplomat.

  60. James Jones

    Which taxes are you going to divert from the UK Exchequer, and how?

  61. Bob Mack

    Why don’t we get rid of politicians altogether and just submit a request for a section 30 from Westminster on an annual basis from the people ? Seems it would be just as effective.

  62. sarah

    O/T: Does anyone know why Yours for Scotland’s post today is not readable unless you are a subscriber? This has never happened before – I have always been able to read the blog.

  63. Derek

    On a similar tack, I’ve just been listening to Any Questions on radio 4. Quite interesting; Johann Lamont and Michael Forsyth on the anti side. Forsyth conveniently ignoring his government’s role in privatising fuckin’ everything, and Lamont marely railing against the SNP. One SNP and one Green (Harvie) on the other side. Worth a listen, I think, but maybe wait until tomorrow afternoon when there’s “Any Answers” to follow it.

  64. Oneliner

    @James Jones

    What has become apparent through the work of Salvo is that the Crown Estate in Scotland is different from the Crown Estate in England – the latter having illegally subsumed the former. Consequently much of what has been taxed by Westminster has been done fraudulently as per the ‘Union’ of the Crowns.

    Preparatory submissions have been made to the United Nations.

    You can read more on the Salvo website if it continues to survive the disproportionate amount of attacks. Funny, that.


  65. Stephen O'Brien

    I noticed that the use of the word ‘fisherman’, made taboo. It’s now ‘fishers’, according to the SNP rep, on QT. Makes me wonder, WTF have we to call a ‘snowman’?

    I’ve only ever heard the word ‘fishers’, used in the biblical reference.. ‘Fishers of MEN’, that really is blasphemy!

  66. David Hannah

    Scottish False Minister’s questions is a shit show on a weekly basis.

    According to freedom of information requests Jenny Gilruth broke the ministerial code costing tax payers £1 million over rail track maintenance closures. She affected more customers to satisfy her local constituency.

    And the A9 plans cancelled.

    The ferries. Ferguson Marine. To be privatised. Ferries will not be finished.

    The only thing she’s got going for her is a good pair of hair straighteners. That’s it. And Nicola’s suits.

    I listened to Question Time. With the audience member doing a 92 mile round trip to get to the show as the ferries not working.

    The SNP are shambles. The country is grinding to a hault.

    And now we find out they are putting on £72 football special train to Inverness for the Scottish Cup final.

    What a disgrace. The trains are nationalised. They set the price. They are ripping off hard pressed Scots out of every penny.

    And Humza does nothing. No one ever gets sacked. No one ever resigns. No one ever loses their job.

    The opinion polls are tanking. But not for Independence. Yet Mhairi says 50 per cent is mot enough. We need 55. 60. And another begging letter.

    Then she bangs on about her privelege. Her erasemus exchange trip. And her government can’t even set that up.

    What the fuck are they doing? They are criminal fucking enterpise. Rolling in it for themselves. Failing Scotland.

    Fucking sickening.

  67. David Hannah

    Then we see Nicola Sturgeon, at the Rainbow Awards.

    She’s not at any Independence rally. She’s no ally to gay, lesbian bisexual Scots.

    Sturgeon is the destroyer of women’s rights.

    She wants to carve up your children for the gender industrial conveyor belt.

    She said, “As long as there is breath in me, I will be a trans ally.”

    She is a fucking loonatic. She’s nuts.

  68. David Hannah

    Jenny Gilruth has fucked transport in this country already. She’s on Kezia Dugdale level thick.

    Sorry. Not sorry.

  69. James Che

    James jones.

    Sorry for delay to reply, I was busy mowing the lawn and walking the dogs,
    Not at the same time you understand.

    In response to your question.

    What powers do you think a parliament usually has? You kinda answered your own question. Its a parliament acting on behalf of Sovereign Scots.

    How do you think the international Community will react when it realise Scotland has been deceived by Englands parliament for the last 300 years, but meanwhile ravaging Scotland of it resources and treating the Scots as serfs in a Colony by refusing the right to self determination.

    Somehow I do not think it would be Scotland that was looking bad.

    Westminster reaction, well you have remember how occupied Westminster will become trying to deal with all its false treaties with other Countries, how busy it will become dealing with Colonies of the Commonwealth, many which also wish to be de-colonised.
    And finally it will be very busy trying to re-instate The 1707 dissolved and extinguished 1707 Scottish parliament back into the treaty of parliamentary union to save its neck and own skin.

  70. David Hannah

    One more thing about Jenny Gilruth. We’ll need to ask her what gender the trans child snatcher is. Will he be the third gender as well?

    The individual is a child snatcher.

    I’ve had enough. Get them out. Get them out now.

  71. Casper1066

    It’s like when Nicola fled, they panic and just grab her book of idea’s and run with it.

    Maybe people won’t notice…

  72. Chris Downie

    The election results are coming in thick and fast from Northern Ireland and once again, the Unionist majority is being eroded. For a long time, the DUP types asked at debates “what would an independent Scotland mean for Tha Yun Yin?” but it’s looking increasingly likely a United Ireland will happen before an independent Scotland, though the former seems almost inevitable (albeit gradually) and the latter is in a state of limbo. Perhaps the time has come to reverse the question and ask “what would a United Ireland mean for the UK and Scotland’s place in it?”

  73. James Che

    James jones.

    You need to read and research whom the bank of England in answerable to.

    For is not the bank of Great Britain, it is the Bank of England and Wales, and therefore any connections to finances the treasury and taxes in England And wales is up to them,

    With Scotland extinguished from the Treaty of union over 300 years ago it might be wiser to ask do we have to divert any taxes in the future,
    Or better still how much of Scotlands taxes should be returned, poll tax? Oil taxes? Food, Whiskey? Shipping and Ports? Farming and fishing?, energy?

    It was Westminster and the Monarch, in that year 1707 whose Shoulders this error and keeness rest with.
    to dissolve Scotlands parliament from existence and therefore from the treaty of union. Eager, in fact over eager to become manager and gaffer of Scotland they did not think of the future or it be that Scots should discover the truth.

  74. David Lindsay

    Really, BBC? Really? Alex Salmond was on Question Time and no one wanted to ask about juryless rape trials?

    Hey, ho. It is time for one of Alba’s two MPs to name the conspirators against Salmond under parliamentary privilege.

  75. Ian Brotherhood

    @David Hannah (9.12) –

    ‘The only thing she’s got going for her is a good pair of hair straighteners.’


    That made me laugh aloud.

    Well, to be honest it was more of a stifled cough. Like a lot of us these days, I’m out of practise.


  76. Ian Brotherhood

    Could someone with the technical nous please freeze that crowd shot near the end of the featured video and get it uploaded to GIF under the ‘Aye right/sure thing’ category?



  77. James Che

    I am not sure legally if the British parliament could re- instate Scotland parliament into the Treaty of union,
    As the treaty is/ was with a Englands old parliament and the Scottish or English parliament are gone.
    Well at least it is on record that Scotlands parliament is Dissolved and extinguished from the treaty.
    Englands old parliament may have falsified it own situation to become the sole entrant into the treaty of union.

  78. Xaracen

    sarah said;

    “O/T: Does anyone know why Yours for Scotland’s post today is not readable unless you are a subscriber? This has never happened before – I have always been able to read the blog.”

    Iain Lawson said in response to one commenter who had the same problem, that “it’s a dispute between Twitter and WordPress that is causing the problem. A direct free subscription to WordPress is the way to go.”

  79. David Hannah

    It looks like the SNP can’t build schools the right size either. Read about Renfrewshire council building the new school for 1500 pupils only with a capacity for 430.

    How can that happen? The level of incompetence is incomprehensible.

    Humza will offer the Councillor a promotion.

    These bastards should be jailed for gross negligence.

  80. alan scott

    I’m surprised chatGPT didn’t offer number 7 the popular uprising option.
    Murrell and Sturgeon
    And Slater and Humza
    Now and in time to be,
    Wherever tartan is worn,
    Are changed, changed utterly:
    A terrible beauty is born.

  81. Grouser

    The MacAllen female was a rabbit caught in the headlinghts for most of the programme. She was slapped aside by Ms Baillie, (God help us) without Ms Baillie even looking at her. It took Alex Salmond to take pity on her and try to explain ‘what she meant to say.’ The Tory lord from the Scottish Office was so disconnected that his face said it all: Alistair Jack you owe me big time for forcing me on to this programme. The journalist might have been OK but she was a writer not a talker and she could not organise her thoughts quick enough to express them clearly and logically.
    At risk of being called racist I was struck by the number of non-Scottish accents on the programme. Is this representative of the population of the environs of Fort William?
    As for Fiona Bruce – not so much a facilitator more of an advocate for the Union.
    As for the previous blog – the GRA is thoroughly discredited because of its lack of protection for women. Wherever this depraved and perverted individual lands up I hope he has a hard time because he has earned it. He should take Sturgeon and the Greens with him. They have created an environment and culture where he thrived to the ultimate detriment of one innocent young girl.

  82. sarah

    @ Xaracen: many thanks for the guidance on how to access Yours for Scotland!

  83. A Scot Abroad

    James Che,

    in the real world, and not the parallel pre-1707 world that you appear to inhabit, 93% of all taxes collected in Scotland go direct to the Union’s HMRC, without going through any Scottish revenue system. Then, following various calculations, a lot is returned to Scotland and its parish council in Holyrood. In terms of per capita spending, Scotland receives more than was ever raised in Scotland. So it’s not really a case of Scotland withholding taxes. It never sees them at all until a very large grant is received in Holyrood from London.

    You could make a case that everything has to be raised locally and go through Holyrood before going south. But that isn’t the case right now, and if it was the case, Scottish public spending would be a lot less per head than it is now.

  84. Ian Brotherhood

    @David Hannah (10.41) –

    Forgive me if we’ve already discussed this (I’ve already posted this link so many times I can’t honestly remember who it was in response to) but have you seen either of Campbell Martin’s ‘Only Game In Town’ films?

    Wings has featured them both in the past but reviewing them is always rewarding.

    Here’s a link to Part Two – just from memory I know that the character who crops up at 29mins is enough to prompt further viewing.

    Some suspect that the whole Murrells saga may, at its root, have something to do with the Guptas. That’s fair enough, as are more salacious narratives. We’re all groping in the dark. But I’m at a loss as to why more attention hasn’t been paid to what Campbell’s scrupulous detective work has uncovered – the sums of cash involved are astonishing, make £660k look like birdfeed.

    If perchance you, or any others, haven’t seen this then I’d be keen to hear your thoughts.


  85. Shug

    Humza and the snp are dead men walking.

    They don’t even realise just how embarrassing they are.

    On the bright side Nicola’s legacy is one of complete and utter failure. A legacy that is thoroughly deserved after her conspiracy to jail Salmond.

    I am comfortable to believe the police tent was set up to humiliate her after resigning and eventually refusing to be the prime actor for the security services.

    I doubt if the UK will ever deli we on any of their promises to her

  86. Ian Brotherhood

    To be ‘fair’ to Fiona Bruce, she might as well have been landed in the middle of Hindustan, Zambia, or somesuchly similar godforsaken non-English location.

    Her earpiece is her friend and whoever’s on the other end of it will never have to face scrutiny of any kind.

    She’s just doing her job.

    (What the ‘job description’ is? That’s another matter altogether.)

    Ach well, so it goes…

  87. Alf Baird

    A Scot Abroad @ 5:33 pm

    “it’s a bit pointless to keep asking for a referendum”

    Yes, and in any event: “As a matter of law, a referendum is not a required part of the process of becoming independent” (McCorkindale and McHarg 2020)

    Which explains why ALBA’s strategy of a majority vote for independence at any national election is all that’s needed, and the SNP S.30 ‘strategy’ is a needless waste of time.

  88. charlie

    Anton Decadent says:
    19 May, 2023 at 6:16 pm
    Slightly O/T

    A couple of days ago I posted a link to an article with regard to a challenge on the leadership of Glasgow Labour. It failed, but by a smaller margin than expected. What this article fails to mention but the previous one I linked to did is that Philip Braat, a Belgian, is the choice of the Greens who had stated that unless he was leader of Glasgow Labour they would not go into a coalition with Scottish Labour.

    The only way for us to have a stake in our own futures is to be in charge of them, not a coalition of hostile minority interests, one look at the USA or England just now shows where that leads. Letting the Greens in was suicide for a nationalist group, these people despise nationalists unless they can weaponise them against a larger state. By that I mean that these are not Greens, it is a Bolshevik front operation.

    It’s not Bolshevik but you’re right, we have Menshiviks in power now. But please get your terms right and the analogy with the Russian Revolution is not good, some fucker would be claiming that the children shouldn’t be shot because they all wore dresses. Hey transphobic Bolsheviks. And I sigh. Fuckin Scottish politics.

  89. A Scot Abroad

    Alf Baird,

    that’s just moonshine. If you think that any single 50.1% vote for a party at a national election when there are 1,000 different issues in play would be taken by the international community as the settled will of the Scottish people, then you are even more devolved from reality than I’d thought that you were, with your lazy and ill-informed second-hand thinking about colonialism.

    Alba’s “strategy” merely leads to Scotland’s new 50.1% government being completely ignored. The only way that the world is going to give any airtime to Scotland wanting to be independent is via a single-issue referendum.

  90. Breeks

    Does this not make you feel sick?

    Yousaf’s three biggest “priorities”.

    So sick of these fraudulent wankers milking Independence for a salary. I have such utter contempt for every one of these grifting charlatans.

    Tell you what folks, never ever put me in charge of Scotland unless you want to witness a return to the darker times when certain people might find themselves being flung headlong from the battlements without a parachute. Scotland’s gone far too fkg soft that we tolerate these wretches who get rich talking the talk but never have any intention to deliver.

    They’re like prize fighting boxers who bask in public adulation and support before the fight, then mince around the ring before crumpling up like a packet of crisps in the opening round. Talentless wannabes who don’t see the shame they suffer upon the little people who supported them..

    More and more I get triggered by these “specimens”. This week it’s Yousaf pushing Indy off the agenda, last week it was that Cole-Hamilton prancing about masquerading as a Highland gentleman in a kilt while declaring that Scotland should never exist. What a complete “Uncle Tam” tosser, a joke unto himself. There’s clearly not a gram of self awareness rattling around in that empty fu%#er’s head. Far as I’m concerned it’s ("Tractor" - Ed)ous gobshites with the brass neck to disgrace Scotland’s dress who should cease to exist.

    Mind, I’ve been triggered by that Sturgeon creature since 2014, but my God Scotland, some of you are slow to catch on.

    Believe it or not, I’m normally a very tolerant and compassionate person. I’m a worky bloke but I try not to be a misogynist, I hope I’m not racist, I try not be prejudiced or intolerant, but these gaslighting fraudulent parasites just do my head in.

    The reason I struggle is because deep down, (and God knows why), for some reason I also believe in justice, and Justice requires there to be consequences for all the shite these people are shovelling. A public example needs to be made so all the other reprobates and carpetbaggers oozing out the Local Authority system don’t see politics as a safe and easy career.

    I’d squeeze the system until these scumbags popped like zits.

    Aye, “I’d do it for you” Cole-Hamilton… you and all your ilk.

  91. Oneliner

    @ A Scot Abroad

    ‘The only way that the world is going to give any airtime to Scotland wanting to be independent is via a single-issue referendum.’

    Now there’s some ‘second hand thinking’ for you. Fits squarely with the post-colonial template. Obviously you know the ways of the world because you live abroad (outwith Cheltenham)

  92. North Chiel

    As far as Maggie thatcher was concerned a MAJORITY of “ Nationalist” MP’s at a Westminster General election was good enough for her government to concede Independence . So why the requirement now for 50.1 , 55 or even 60 percent votes ? Both Tory and Labour Westminster governments over the last half century or more have been Ruling Scotland with sometimes less than 40 percent of the popular vote ! How about “ fair doos” for Scotland for a change ?

  93. Robert Louis

    Breeks at 0523am,

    Quite possibly your best posting ever. It is tedious watching these fraudulent so-called ‘indy-supporters’, getting rich in political careers, promising to fight for independence, then doing sweet b*gger all about it. And you are right to call out Humza useless and his ilk. All of them sucking at London’s teat, all the while pretending to be ‘fighting for Scotland’. Not one of them has the talent to ever get such well paid work anywhere else for doing sweet b*gger all, as they do by being an SNP MP/MSP.

    The indy gravy train. No wonder they never push for independence. All talk never, never any action.

    And then their is the libdums and their clown-in-chief, Cole Hamilton. A man who doesn’t think Scotland should exist, but who is happy to join the gravy train in the Scottish parliament. An English carpet bagger, grifting his way through life, at the expense of Scotland. A veritable waste of space.

  94. Muscleguy

    The Treaty of Union is our shackles but also our opportunity. International Law is not denied us. We step into International Law and announce to the world that we intend to withdraw from that Treaty (citing manifest breakings of it). We then announce Union Law is in abeyance subject to a confirmatory referendum which we can hold with Union Law in Abeyance.

    This is how Ukraine did it. It had a Union Treaty with the Soviet Union. So there is a precedence in International Law for this.

    But Yousless is not the politician for this. Eck would have taken us there. But it would not have been necessary. He won a referendum once, I’m sure he could have done it again.

  95. Steven

    There is no big kick off when a referendum is declined, no protests on the streets, no march on Westminster. The reason being? There isn”t a majority for independence and three quarters of those who do say they want it dont want it enough to protest for it.
    I reckon the yes camp have a lot more work to do to convince more of the population to get on board. Whats the point in another referendum if it will bring another defeat. The dial hasn’t moved since the last one despite the shit show of the last ten years and although the SNP have been shockingly bad my overall impression when I talk to many Scots is that they just dont want the division anymore.
    Im an Englishman living in England so I have no feelings either way, just drawn to this site for the unbelievably good journalism. I wish there were more out there who took the time to do a proper job on people in power.

  96. Simon Copley

    Welcome to the world of Brexiteers who want their democratic wishes to be respected…

  97. Cuilean

    2014 Project Fear

    The oil/gas is running out so you’ll have nothing if you vote YES. A decade on and it is still there and new fields discovered.

    You’ll be out of the EU if you vote YES. We’re out.

    The cost of living will £500 a year greater in an indy Scotland. Oh how we wish it was so cheap now!

    Our fisheries will take back control of our waters & tell the EU what it wants in an independent fishing nation once more. Fisheries decimated.

    Your mortage rates will go up if you vote YES. Oooft! Mortgage rates up from 0.75 to 4.5% and rising by a half percent every six months.

    Your pensions will decrease. UK pensions now the lowest in western world and some third world countries!

    Your benefits will decrease. Benefits now lowest in the developed world.

    Taxes will go up. Surprise! Taxes have gone up!

    What currency will you use?! Brit pound destroyed since 2014! Brexit caused a major decline. It weakened sterling against the euro by 5% overnight. The night before the vote, sterling was trading at £1 to €1.30; the next day, this had fallen to £1 to €1.23. By October 2016, the exchange rate was £1 to €1.12, a fall of 14% since the referendum. By the end of August 2017 sterling was even lower, at £1 to €1.08.Against the US dollar, meanwhile, sterling fell from £1 to $1.466 to £1 to $1.3694 when the referendum result was first revealed, and down to £1 to $1.2232 by October 2016, a fall of 16%.
    In September 2022, under the influence of inflation and tax cuts funded by borrowing, sterling’s value reached an all-time low of just over $1.03. In 2014 Tory Chancellor Geo Osbourne said if Scotland votes YES, it walks away from the pound! Oh yes please!

    Vote No for more devolved powers. The opposite has happened. We have less devolved powers under the single internal market wheeze and power grab on all powers devolved under EU legislation. Nary a whimper from the SNP. Devo Max was the promise. Devo Minus the reality.

    Better Together stated Scots would be £1400 better off per year is we voted No. We are £5000 worse off per year and rising.UK food inflation is worse in Europe and rising all the time.

    The NHS would be safe if we voted No. They even wheeled out Gordon Brown to say it was the NHS which saved his eyesight and he’d never stand by and watch the NHS destroyed under the Tories as did Alistair Darling. We’ll never stand by and watch the NHS destroyed without a fight they said then. Well where are Brown & Darling now as Doctors and nurses across the UK strike for a basic wage and waiting times are now a dystopian nightmare thanks to cuts and EU medics leaving in their tens of thousands after Brexit.

    The day after the Indy Ref David Cameron made it clear what the Uk Govt would do in the future. He said, ‘Now the debate has been settled for a generation, or as Alex Salmond has said for a lifetime. So there can be no disputes. No re-runs’.

    The SNP were told this on 19th September 2014 but they have been in denial and kept Scotland in denial ever since. There will be no IndyRef 2 EVER agreed by the UK. Cameron quickly went on to say that it was now what England wanted that mattered, ‘and now the millions of voices of England must be heard’. It was these words alone which led to the 56 SNP MPs being returned to Westminster but Sturgeon squandered all of that lang syne.

  98. stuart mctavish

    Alf Baird

    I’d imagine that all that’s really needed to end the union is the same size majority of Scottish constituencies as was required to start it – and the desire.

    I’d also imagine that with PW telegraphing that there’s currently little to no difference between SNP and Sir Kier Starmer’s labour party – even down to their thinking on Assange (FFS!), that its the desire/ who benefits part that still needs work.

    Interesting times.

  99. Tinto Chiel

    Cuilean: “Cameron quickly went on to say that it was now what England wanted that mattered, ‘and now the millions of voices of England must be heard’. It was these words alone which led to the 56 SNP MPs being returned to Westminster but Sturgeon squandered all of that lang syne.”

    Yes, I’ve often wondered about the exact reason for such an amazing electoral result. Perhaps Cameron’s crowing and menacing words or remorse from a significant number of voters whose nerve had failed them at the last minute in the referendum were factors.

    I’m pretty sure I recall some Russian electoral observers in 2014 saying that the referendum was wide open to pochling, particularly the postal vote.

    Since it would be much more difficult to fix a multi-party election that a binary-choice referendum, the 49.9% of the vote which the SNP achieved in 2015 may have been much closer to the true level of yes votes in 2014.

    And yet, this tremendous head of steam was immediately dissipated by The Sturge, who told us the election wasn’t about independence.

    Of course, anyone wearing X-ray specs that day would have seen the wee electric scroller on her daïs continually flashing the words The Union: Safe In My Hands.

  100. JGedd

    Does anyone remember the title of the Wings article that listed the MSPs who voted for the GRR legislation? I want to check if it highlighted particularly those (not just SNP) who voted down the amendment that would have prevented sex offenders being able to change their identity.) I’m hoping that Dan or that other supreme archivist of Wings, BDTT, will have that information.

    I aim to email all the South of Scotland MSPs who did so and ask if they stand by that choice.

  101. A Scot Abroad


    no, my comment fits squarely with the ways of the modern world. a new iScotland would need recognition from bodies such as the UN, WTO, IMF, and the like. Not a single one of them would recognise an iScotland if the process of becoming independent wasn’t in accord with a legal referendum.

  102. Stephen O'Brien

    Sturgeon’s comment of underestimating the “polarisation of our politics”.

    Those words are clear indication of her own dillusion, while the country is split 50/50, for almost a decade. In her own mind, she is so entrenched in the status quo, with absolutely no plan to resolve that split, she presumes the voters, must have accepted the status quo and Devolution, as being the norm.

    Naw! SNPs worse nightmare came true, the country expected them to deliver independence. Even staunch unionists, thought Brexit would tip the balance.

    In her own mind, she rejects her responsibility to deliver. She has completely separated herself from the mandates for IndyRef2. We were supposed to know all along, that was a complete and utter fraud!

    Some of us did!

  103. Northcode

    Alf Baird @11:56pm

    Aren’t referenda merely large scale opinion polls that have no force in law?

    Which would mean that even if the independence referendum back in 2014 had been ‘won’ by supporters of an independent Scotland, Westminster could just have replied with:

    “thank you for your input on this important question, Scotland. We’ll give your response the consideration we think it deserves and get back to you in a few years time”.

    Seeking permission from Westminster to have a national opinion poll on whether Scotland should be independent or not goes light years beyond pointless.

    And even if Westminster was magnanimous enough to allow Scotland to voice its opinion using said opinion poll, and Scotland’s ‘opinion’ was that it should be independent, their response would be – “thank you for your input…”

    Which is why, if we want to ACTUALLY achieve independence and not just waffle on about it with talk of referendums, we should use a political vehicle like the Alba party. And just BE independent at the next election.

    It all seems so simple doesn’t it, Alf?

  104. John Main

    @Breeks 5:23

    First class post.

  105. John Main

    @Cuilean 7:31

    That’s a big post.

    And a big pile of steaming shite.

    Thing is, you ignore the two biggest elephants in the room: Covid and The War.

    Why not come back to us with a comparative assessment of Scotland against Europe, the EU, and the rest of the world, but this time include all relevant factors?

    Don’t just cherry pick the ones that support your preconceived prejudices.

  106. Peter A Bell

    The notion that we can just scrap the SNP and “start again” is frankly idiotic. It is a statement informed by emotion, not calculation. It totally ignores the looming threat of rabid British Nationalism. The ideology which cut its teeth on the EU is about to turn to Scotland as the new ‘enemy’ which must be resisted.

    Starting again is, by definition, a mid- to long-term project. Mid term being 3 to 30 years and long-term being 8 to 80 years. Do not doubt that ‘rolling back devolution’ is a euphemism for re-imposing direct rule from London via the ‘UK Government in Scotland’ and the Office of the Governor General of North Britain#; aka the Scotland Office. Alister “Union” Jack and his successors will hold all political power in Scotland with the Scottish Parliament kept – if at all – only as a scapegoat to soak up the blame for the inevitable serial blows to our nation.

    All of this is happening NOW. It is set to accelerate with the coming UK general election. No matter which way it goes, the outcome of that election will be a government elected with a mandate to ‘rein in’ the uppity Jocks who would threaten the ‘precious’ Union.

    We can’t just turn the clock back 30 years and start again. We can’t turn the clock back at all! We can’t wipe out the mess that the SNP has made of Scotland’s cause since 2014. We can’t wipe out what the British state has done in that time. There is no such thing as a fresh start. We can only start from where we are. We can’t wish ourselves in a different situation any more than a male human can wish themselves into being a female human. Where we are may not be a great place. But that has to be faced, not avoided.

    Where we are is that action on the constitutional issue in needed right now. Something must be done preferably before the UK election is called. The reason being that this will define what that election is perceived as being about in Scotland. Either the Scottish Government and Parliament defines the ground on which the election is to be fought, or the British state will. And that will not be good for Scotland.

    Only the Scottish Government can take or initiate the action which will forestall the British Nationalist onslaught. And the party of government is the SNP. Discard the SNP and you discard the only tool we have – defective as it may be. You discard it in the hope the the British state will give the independence campaign time and space to regroup and start over. Really??? Who the fuck imagines that is actually going to happen?

    Scrapping the SNP will be regarded by the British state as a sign of weakness. It will be seen as the independence movement in retreat. They will come at us all the harder knowing that there is not even the possibility of resistance.

    I am as pissed-off with the SNP as anyone. I abhor what has been done to the party I was once quietly proud to be a member of. But I DO NOT allow my feelings to cloud my judgement. I know that action must be taken now. I know what that action is. I know that only the Scottish Government can take this action. I know that the SNP is the party of government. With all dues respect to Stu Campbell, I cannot ‘unknow’ all of that so as to believe in the fantasy of a fresh start.

  107. Northcode

    That’s a bit unfair of @John Main 11:05.

    @Cuilean makes many valid points.

  108. John Main

    @Tinto Chiel 8:38

    Your post started well, but then veered off topic with a counter factual paragraph involving the meaning-free generalised ‘F’ word insult.

    Maybes your real obsession broke through there, eh?

    Here’s an idea for you, because as a reality-grounded pragmatist, I do want to understand just what it is that continues to drive you and a small minority of similar thinkers on here.

    Why not spell out precisely how Scottish Independence will be helped and advanced by the imperialist occupation and destruction of a European nation, with a unique culture and language, whose people wish to be free to govern themselves and choose their own destiny in the world?

    Obviously I won’t be holding my breathe for your reply. It’s been well over a year now since I first asked the question, and no answer so far.

  109. Tom Robertson

    The SNP must root out the whole “I’m with Nicola” clan or there will be an endless line of MSP’s spouting the same rubbish that got us nowhere.

    Repeatedly ASKING for Indy2 is what’s “unsustainable” . . .

  110. John Main

    Peter A Bell

    Seems to me the SNP has discarded us Scots.

    Putting aside all of the manifest incompetence, criminality, reality denial, etc (as if we could), they have just elected HY via a flawed and fraudulent process, thus denying him, and his consequent position as FM, all legitimacy and credibility.

    Are we supposed to just suck that up too?

    Nobody who is opposed to Scotland, Indy, the SNP and the Greens is going to play ball with that travesty.

    That has to be faced, not avoided.

  111. McDuff

    They really make me sick. And i can`t understand those people who still support this bunch of useless deceivers. Get them out.

  112. John Main


    Wee fact for you.

    Turkish inflation rate in 2022 – 70%

    Brexit and WM mismanagement?

    Or Covid and The War.

    As I wrote. Any assessment of anywhere in the world, and that includes Scotland, that ignores Covid and The War is steaming shite.

    Harsh, but fair.

  113. Xaracen

    James Jones said;

    “What powers would this Parliament give itself, and how would Westminster and the international community react?”

    That would be whatever powers the owners of Scotland’s sovereignty agree to give it, given that those owners would directly elect the parliament’s members. Since that sovereign authority outranks Westminster’s non-sovereign authority, Westminster can react as it likes, ie, bully, bluster and bluff, but it hasn’t enough authority to overrule the sovereign Scots on their own turf.

    Also, we don’t need to open a new parliament, those new powers can be added to the Holyrood one to supplement or amend the powers it already has. If Westminster complains, we need only remind it that in our own kingdom our sovereignty is absolute, just as Westminster’s sovereignty is absolute in England, (if even then*). It has no sovereignty over Scotland, only a degree of authority delegated to it from Scotland’s old parliament and monarch, neither of which owned Scotland’s sovereignty.

    *The old English parliament was sovereign, but only over the English kingdom. The UK Parliament is by very clear definition not the English parliament, and there has never been a formal transfer of sovereignty from the English one to the UK one, but even if there had been, it would still only cover England. Westminster’s assertion of its ‘unlimited sovereignty’ over the UK is bogus and unwarranted.

    Sovereignty and authority are not synonymous, they have distinctly different connotations, so are not freely interchangeable.

    “Which taxes are you going to divert from the UK Exchequer, and how?”

    All of them, by establishing the relevant new processes; it’s just paperwork after all and I don’t need to be an expert in the details to conclude that it’s entirely doable, or how do you think Scotland’s taxes were diverted to London in the first place?

    A Scot Abroad said;
    “In terms of per capita spending, Scotland receives more than was ever raised in Scotland.”

    The accounting that you are relying on is deliberately inept, incomplete, and false. This has been demonstrated by real experts many times now, do try to keep up!

  114. Tinto Chiel

    @John Main: you’re the one with the obsession. I have hardly mentioned the eastern war because I know SC doesn’t like it, whereas you often manage to work it into your comments.

    You have heard of Stephan Bandera and what he represents? His fascism was for real and very specific and lives on in elements of Ukrainian society today.

    You’re the one with the simplistic view that Russia is bad and Ukraine white.

    Why don’t you listen to Scott Ritter and Col Douglas MacGregor, both vastly experienced American military men for what is really going on east of Poland? Their views are easily available on YouTube and often reference the Azov Battalion and it’s Banderan roots, so don’t take my word for it.

  115. A Scot Abroad

    Northcode, re the last line of your 1045 post.

    It’s only so simple to simpletons.

  116. Beauvais

    Peter A Bell @11:29 am

    The SNP is beyond redemption. Get one trougher deselected (not likely), another would take their place.

    If the British state reimposed full direct rule then good. How many would turn out for the AUOB matches then? Half the population most probably, all with a fervour not seen before.

    If devolution isn’t scrapped by diktat then Alba will be making short work of the SNP anyway. We’ve got the measure of their high heid yins as this website shows everyday. And I don’t think the law is finished with them either.

    A more diffuse, and therefore stronger, indy movement, no longer subject to the strange and selfish whims of the corrupt NuSNP, being inspired by and not controlled by Alba can make swift and significant strides to liberation.

  117. A Scot Abroad


    you are nothing more than a dreamer. The majority of Scots want to remain within the Union.

    Rather than stupid fantasies about the people of Scotland just asserting their sovereignty, try to think about how to persuade the majority of Scots as to the benefits of independence in a complex global system. All the boring stuff, like trade, currency, a central bank, the fact that Scotland is geographically remote from everyone apart from its largest trading partner, not enough port infrastructure for containers and bulk goods, no cost-effective way of exporting energy over 500 miles, and so on and on and on. Real world stuff.

  118. Tinto Chiel

    @Johm Main: my reply to you seems to be in moderation so I’ll simplify it drastically in case any references I make may trip the filter.

    I rarely if ever make any reference to Eastern Matters, because I know our host doesn’t like it, whereas you often try to work your simplistic R Bad, U Good views into your comments. It seems you’re the one with the obsession.

    Re my use of the F word, it’s fully justified. Don’t take my word for it. Leave your MSM bubble on the war and listen to Scott Ritter and Colonel Douglas MacGregor, two senior and hugely knowledgeable American military men, who have tried to give a more balanced picture of what is going on across there.

  119. Beauvais

    Ascot @12:46 pm

    “…not enough port infrastructure…”

    Ah, another union benefit.

    If Scotland had had an oil fund then there would be no deficiency in infrastructure by now.

  120. James Che

    Scot ABroad.

    What union?

  121. Northcode

    @Beauvais 12:20pm

    Well said, Beauvais.

    The ‘Scottish’ National Party clearly no longer represents the Scots. And it has become a hindrance to achieving independence.

    Scotland now has no way of fairly representing its indigenous people in this union – if it ever really did.

    We are ‘allowed’ to choose our representatives from a narrow selection of ‘foreign’ political parties who have stuck ‘Scotland’ in front of their names.

    And now the SNP has joined their ranks. It is actively assisting Westminster in its attempts to humiliate Scotland and denigrate its people in the eyes of the world.

    So, yes. I want to see the end of this wretched and shrivelled parody of the brave and noble thing that was once the SNP.

    And it would be an act of kindness for all true supporters of independence to help turn off its life support, and put it out of its misery.

    We Scots must now walk a different path to independence. And abandon the dead-end that is the SNP.

  122. A Scot Abroad


    it’s a fact. You seem to live in a world of “if”. Scotland doesn’t have enough container and bulk handling infrastructure to be self-sufficient in that regard. Most containers and bulk goods go via English roads and ports.

    James Che,

    the Union that’s been in place since 1707, no matter what a-historical muppets insist.

  123. Northcode

    @ A Scot Abroad.

    Does the price of fish really matter when you’re fighting for your life?

    It would seem so, for some.

  124. A Scot Abroad

    Tinto Chiel,

    the two sources that you follow (Ritter and MacGregor) are shills for Russia, mostly using RIA Novosti to amplify Russian propaganda. They are paid for those service with Russian money.

  125. James Che

    Scot Abroad.

    Xaracen is correct, our Sovereignty in Scotland belongs to Scots, not to England or its version of sovereignty of the UK,

    I would go further and suggest there is no UK, as it lies on a false premise that Scotlands parliament was not extinguished or dissolved from and by the agreed terms of treaty of union in England.

    What UNION do you refer to.

    Perhaps Scots are not “dreamers” at all once they realise it had been one big 300 year hoax upon the Scots.

    I would be more inclined to think it is Westminster parliaments nightmare.

    Besides reparations to Scotland from England parliament nothing changes for Scotland,
    1: It is still a Country.
    2: The Scots: still retain their Sovereignty over parliament and Monarchy,
    3: The international community has no alternative but to recognise Scotland in its own right, as a individual Country, as the notion of a UK disappears.
    4: Scotland would not have to cough up for its share of National debt to England as it was dissolved and extinguished from that liability position more 300 years since.

  126. James Che

    Scot Abroad .

    I repeat , What Union. The imaginary one, the Fraudulent one, whom was in this union?.

    Scotlands parliament, was extinguished from it by those muppets in Westminster in 1707.

  127. A Scot Abroad


    the price of fish very much matters: it’s a metaphor for daily life and trade. Scotland isn’t “fighting for its life”. Some hysterical loons might think that, but the majority of Scots are content with the status quo, and largely ignoring the hysterical loons who want to wreck Scottish life.

  128. lothianlad

    Brilliant analysis again Stu.

  129. Beauvais

    Ascot @1:22 pm

    Well here’s another of my ifs. If, on independence, Scotland sets up an oil/renewables fund then, like Norway now, large scale projects such as increase of port infrastructure can proceed.

    Whereas you quietly prefer Scotland to be a cash cow colony for London and try to cover it up with your ceaseless disparaging of Scotland’s worth and abilities.

  130. Beauvais

    Northcode @1:19 pm

    How right you are Northcode. Our bloc of unionist parties with Scottish in front of the title have been well and truly joined by the ‘Scottish’ National Party.

    Alba doesn’t need the prefix Scottish in its name, nor does it want Party, since it has been set up to help win independence and not to be a vehicle for people wanting a self-serving career in politics.

  131. James Che

    The onus is on Englands Westminster parliament to provide evident recorded proof that the 1707 Scottish parliament was not dissolved and extinguished from the Treaty of union.

    And seeing as it (Westminster) has already made that Statement for all the world to see on it parliament site in 2023 it would be difficult for it now to retract,

    That Westminster statement is also backed up by Queen Annes Speech and proclamation on record in 1707 whereby she claims the Scottish parliament dissolved.

    If the shenanigans of the political parties in holyrood do not buck up within a few weeks or a limited amount of months then Independence for Scots could be achieved by Scotland simply leaving the imaginary Union that it was dissolved from as far back as 1707.

    We are still able to run our own parliament, retain our Scottish Sovereignty, and become recognised as a Country internationally as the old concept of a UK collapses.

  132. A Scot Abroad


    you’ve run into another brick wall of reality with your “if” again.

    The world is moving away from oil and gas. Scottish oil and gas, whilst still reasonably plentiful, is more expensive to extract than it is from other already existing and equally plentiful places elsewhere in the world. So in the world of global commerce, a reducing demand for oil and gas is easily covered by cheaper sources elsewhere. Everybody in the energy business knows that, and isn’t going to invest in further extraction from Scotland. So there won’t be a new sovereign wealth fund in a future iScotland.

    Then there’s the renewables. Ohm’s law means that, with current technology, it becomes cost-ineffective to export energy over greater distances than 500 miles using HVDC transmission, unless there’s no other sources available. You can keep boosting the voltage along the way, but that’s expensive (particularly if the boosters are sub-sea), and in practical terms, the realistic maximum is around 2,000 miles. So Scotland’s market for exporting renewable energy is 500 miles. Every country within 500 miles of Scotland has just as much renewable energy sources as Scotland does, so why would they import energy from Scotland when they can easily generate it themselves? Beyond 500 miles, the French have got wind and nuclear, the Germans have wind and French nuclear, and the other markets such as Denmark, Belgium and Holland have both wind and aren’t large enough to be worthy of Scottish investment.

    Stick to selling whisky and tartan tat. Scotland is good at both of those, and the world seems to ike buying it.

  133. James Che

    The fishing rights of Scottish water would automatically belong to the Country of Scotland including the illegal stolen water boundary by Westminster if Scotland decides to walk away or merrily skip from the falsehood of a union.

  134. Mia

    “The majority of Scots want to remain within the Union”

    I challenge your assertion as being “non proven” and therefore just an opinion, rather than the truth.

    a) The majority of Scots voted for independence in 2014. Their self-determination was frustrated by the vote from people coming from elsewhere and settling permanently or transiently in Scotland at the time of the vote. There is a very nice study from Edinburgh University which beautifully demonstrates this. Snippets of this work were also published by a couple of newspapers with a clear preference for Scotland to remain as England’s colony. Talking from my own personal experience, 5 of the people in my circle who voted No in 2014 were from outwith Scotland and they returned to either their countries of origin or moved elsewhere soon after the referendum. One of them didn’t even stayed for a year after voting No in the referendum. They were not Scots nor ever saw themselves as Scots either. Interestingly, their children, some of them born in Scotland, never saw themselves as Scots either. By the way, one of these people didn’t even have their main residence in Scotland (or the UK) at the time, yet, because they owned a property in Scotland, they were given the vote. You would never see such a thing in any other country.

    b)Neither the SNP nor Westminster want to ask the Scots again the question. Therefore we have to make the assumption the views of the Scots have not changed since that study by Edinburgh university was done. In fact, until the useless Sturgeon started to play with the GRR and transgenderism as her strategy to stall and frustrate independence, the Scots had more reasons than not to want independence.

  135. Xaracen

    @ A Scot Abroad at 12:46 pm

    Hah! You’re just deflecting!

    For all of your ‘boring stuff’, there is no particular reason to suppose that an independent Scotland can’t manage those things at least as well as the UK, or England, or any other country, and you certainly haven’t provided any actual justification for suggesting it ain’t so.

    All we’d really need to do to persuade the majority of Scots that independence offers them real potential of a better future, is to inform them of how the governance of Scotland by the self-obsessed, abusive English establishment has never been carried out for Scotland’s benefit in the first place. That for at least the last 140 years or so Scotland has generated great wealth, particularly so over the last 40 years, but the Westminster establishment denies us any benefit from it. Show them the evidence that Scotland’s vast wealth has been spent in England for its, and especially London’s benefit, and to our great detriment. That evidence has been accumulating since 1900, and is now plentiful.

    We have been and are being robbed and cheated perfectly deliberately by our so-called equal partner, and enough is now way more than enough; it is well past time to apply serious justice to all of the serious injustices, and open the way to a wealthier, healthier, and fairer future.

    That’s the real point of Scotland’s independence!

    Oh, and just for your information, I can dream BIG, and I’m not alone, not by any means!

  136. Mia

    “Scottish oil and gas, whilst still reasonably plentiful, is more expensive to extract than it is from other already existing and equally plentiful places elsewhere in the world”

    Oh for F sake. Give it a bloody break. We were force fed all sort of crap in 2014 regarding Scotland’s oil being running out or being of poor quality. Yet, for the last 9 fucking years Westminster has been milking all that “bad oil” from Scotland for all what is worth and making a bloody fortune out of it at our expense. So it was all a monumental pile of shite. It was a pile of shite in 2014 and it is still a pile of shite today.

    So save your propaganda, please. We heard it all before countless times and we are sick and fed up of self-interested entities continuously oeddling this nonsense to make Scotland look less worthy than it really is.

    For as long as Scotland has oil and Scotland can use it for itself, it is a worthy asset. Oil can be used for much more things than just petrol.

    As per the renewable energy. The exact same applies. Energy that Scotland can produce is energy Scotland does not have to import. Everything uses energy. So it is a very valuable asset indeed and its value will only increase.

    Why is it that we have to believe Scotland’s assets are worthless for Scotland but they are most valuable for England?

    Enough with the nonsense, please.

  137. James Che


    I think many Scots could say the same, Scots have not changed nor did they vote to remain in the union that is a falsehood for the past 300 years.

    My immediate next door neighbour was an American family whom I got on rather well with until 2014 referendum vote.

    In conversation with them a few days beforehand, they informed us that they were going to vote to stay in the ahemm, union.
    There were three members of voting age in their family.

    I was fuming to say the least when they invited us to a party to celebrate America’s independence day,
    From who. Yep thats right , from Colonial Britain

    I made polite excuses about prior family commitments

    Two years later when their son finished his Scottish education, they sold up and returned to America,

    Two years later they moved back to America.

  138. James Che

    Westminster parliament and therefore that government has had ample time to prove that Scotland is its most valuable asset,
    From a strategic defence position for England to the bigger world, Scotland is like a landing pad and sea port, plus training ground for instigating wars.
    The ammo dumps between Scotland and Ireland from the second WW says how careless or what little respect it has for the people of Scotland and Ireland,

    Scotland has been used for its valuable oil resources for London finances, so much so, that they chose hide the MacCrone report from all the people of Scotland,

    And if my assessment is correct from the records of Westminster that Scotland has not been in a treaty of union for the past 300 years it is not just my dream but your nightmare as a unionist.

  139. JGedd

    Brian Doonthetoon @ 11.04am

    Thanks for the info, BDTT. I knew you would come up trumps!

    (Posted my request on this thread by accident. It was supposed to be Off-Topic.)

  140. A Scot Abroad

    James Che,

    fishing rights do indeed belong to Scotland, but if an iScotland decided to join the EU, then the EU is going to claim them as part of the Common Fisheries Policy.


    good luck with trying to disenfranchise people that you don’t think should get a vote in Scotland.


    there’s no reason to think that Scotland can’t manage those things. But, at the moment, there’s absolutely zero evidence coming out of any public policy body or political party anywhere in Scotland that someone is thinking about the practical steps that would need to be taken in order to have a currency of Scotland’s own, a central bank and a dozen other matters. And until there is, nobody in Scotland who is not already a thoughtless Indy lunatic is going to be persuaded that an iScotland is better than staying in the Union.


    I’m not saying that Scotland’s oil and gas is any different, or worse, than oil and gas from Venezuela, Nigeria, the UAE or anywhere else. I’m saying it’s more expensive to extract. Why would anybody pay more for it than oil or gas from elsewhere?

  141. John Main

    @Tinto Chiel

    So what if you rarely mention the war? You mentioned it at 8:38 – first mention on this thread as far as I can see, so don’t come it with the holier than thou crap.

    So, seeing as you brought it up, and insulted brave men and women by likening them to f@scists, maybes you should own your own obsession.

    Here’s the situation as I see it. We have two national independence movements on opposite sides of Europe. One is represented by heros and heroines who put their fragile bodies on the line to protect their land, language, culture and future. It’s freedom or death for them.

    The other is represented, partly at least, by sneering armchair warriors who have the sheer brass neck to diss the first movement whilst posturing on the moral high ground and virtue signalling about the purity of their own progressive values. And whilst doing so, achieving SFA for their own land, language, culture and future.

    It’s not a good look. Give it a rest FFS.

  142. Ian Brotherhood

    @Mia (3.03) –

    Hear hear.

    Next we’ll have ASA informing us that ‘it’s the wrong kind of oil’ or suchlike.

    I keep popping back here to check what he’s spouting. Every time I see his handle I get a mental image of Terry Thomas, wearing nothing but underpants and a pith helmet, smoking a Sobranie in an ivory holder, pink gin at hand.

    ‘Part of me will be forever in Rangoon…’

    Aye, yer marbles.

    Tally-ho! ya throbber.

  143. James Che

    The emphasis here for there being ( no) Union must be lie with the old parliament of England and the Monarch Queen Anne,

    In their eagerness for utter control over Scotland it presumed that by dissolving the Scottish parliament from the treaty of parliamentary unions, the union was confirmed.

    However this mental error combined with arrogance and greed deleted the Scottish parliament from the treaty of union all together and succeeded in creating one parliament to become the Great British parliament, although in name only.

    Englands parliament chose not to bring this error to light or to the attention of Scotland and Scots by omission over the next 300 years, similar to what they were later to do with the MacCrone report.

    It is without doubt that the legalities of this error lies in Westminster old parliament and that the error could and was not fore seen by Scotland until century’s later,

    A legal challenge from England to Scotland if it were to simply walk away from a treaty Scotland was dissolved from ( even if by Westminsters error in 1707)
    Most Courts of Law would say that the Westminster parliament had 300 years to rectify its error, it had also failed to inform Scotland about the error it had made when it dissolved the Scottish parliament and extinguished it from the treaty 300 years prior.

    Legally Scotlands parliament and therefore its very Country is under no obligation to appear before or in front of a Supreme Court of Great Britain for judgement to be made upon Scotlands parliament leaving as it was dissolved and extinguished by England, in England a long time ago.

    The other strange ramification of dissolving and extinguishing the 1707 Scottish parliament from the treaty of union is that the international law Courts would be unable to pass judgement in favour of Westminster without there being a actual international treaty with Scotland,

    However it may look unfavourable along with the rest of Europe on Westminster parliament for its malicious deception on the rest of the world for 300 years.

  144. Northcode

    @ A Scot Abroad 1:50pm.

    I expect the ‘majority’ of Scots you are referring to are of the ‘pampered’, privileged kind.

    Of course they’re happy with the status quo. Why would they want to challenge a system that enables them to own several homes and live a stress-free life of comfort.

    I might do the same if I were one of them. But probably not.

    Because the overwhelming guilt I would feel while others, who could easily be saved, slowly kill themselves with drugs and alcohol and just sheer hopelessness for their futures and the futures of their children, wouldn’t allow me to.

    The actual majority of Scots have been beaten into submission generation after generation over long centuries.

    It is hardly surprising that hopelessness and apathy prevail. And that fear (another device used by oppressors) prevents them from questioning the status quo.

    It’s the way colonisation works. Ask @Alf Baird, he knows.

    The predicted dire fate of an independent Scotland’s economy is yet another piece of oppressor trickery.

    It goes like this:

    You can’t leave me, because no-one else will look after you like I do.

    You can’t live without me because…

    You’re too weak.
    You’re too stupid.
    You’re too poor.
    You’re too ugly.
    You’re too tall.
    You’re too short.
    You’re too fat.
    You’re too skinny.
    You’re too Scottish

    You’re too…and on and on it goes, in a never ending attempt to make the victim believe the oppressor’s lies.

    Do you really believe the international community would turn its back on Scotland and refuse to trade?

    Of course it wouldn’t. Scotland’s renewable energy output alone would have Europe falling over itself to do business with an independent Scotland.

    But until that happy day;

    The price of fish is absolutely irrelevant in Scotland’s fight for independence.

    Because there won’t be any fish to buy if the SNP get their way.

  145. James Che

    Scot Abroad.

    It would I presume that a independent Scotland would hold a vote on wether to join the EU.
    That is called democracy.

    I would also presume that a independent Scotland would have the right automatically to chose whom votes in their elections.
    It does not need a ” vote” of only Scots at a certain percentage dictated by Westminster to become a independent Country however. As it was dissolved and extinguished from any connection or liability with Westminster parliament 300 years past.

    The ability to set up our own Currency is not difficult,
    Scotland has not had a central bank for years, the Bank of England is the Bank of England and Wales and that is whom it is answerable to still to this day.
    Scotland has had its own currency before, I am sure there are ample templates out there for Scotland to access how to run it own banking system,
    We should have enough financial income from reparations alone that The english treasury would owe Scotland for stealing its resources while not in a international treaty with Scotland.

    I suppose that if oil and gas is more expensive to extract from Scotland for some unfathomable reason in this modern cay and age, then we can compensate that against it being imported down south and then sold back to back to Scotland at a higher price through the Westminster treasury at present.
    and the revenue, licences, and taxes would be directly beneficial to Scotlands fund, parliament purse and bank,

    The whites of you’re eyes are showing.

  146. Northcode

    @James Che 5:15pm

    Some good point well said, James

  147. A Scot Abroad


    educate yourself on the laws of physics, the engineering of HVDC transmission of 500 miles, and the additional costs of doing so for up to a maximum of 2,000 miles using existing technology. Then have a look at the existing European power networks and inter-connectors, and try to work out who would buy Scottish renewable energy when they can generate it themselves at a lower production price. Then come back and try to make a sensible argument that Scottish renewable energy has a European future.

    It doesn’t, using existing technology, with existing markets, and with existing economies. Nobody is going to pay over the odds for Scottish renewable energy.

  148. James Che

    Scotland would not have to seek international recognition,
    international eyes would be focused on Scotland automatically.

    All it needs is for Scotlands people to walk away from the falsified Treaty of union that Scotland was actually extinguished from, and the monarch then dissolved the Scottish parliament in England.

    The Monarch nor the Westminster parliament could or did close the parliament in Scotland, as neither held that power over the Sovereign Scots.
    Our parliament was Sine Die’d in Scotland.

  149. A Scot Abroad

    James Che,

    an iScotland can indeed choose to apply to join the EU, but for a start that will be in accordance with EU accession rules. Scotland’s public spending deficit currently rules that out. In the world of politics, an iScotland would be vetoed by at least 4 EU members of the process of becoming independent was not done in accordance with the laws of the U.K., and specifically the Scotland Act 1998. Which means winning an independence referendum. There is no other way. And why? Because, taking the most obvious of many examples, Spain would not wish to reward any form of unilateral declaration by welcoming Scotland into the EU, when Catalunya would equally try for the same.

    As for “reparations”, you are insane. There would be no reparations due whatsoever. Scotland would instead be expected to take on its U.K.-proportionate share of the U.K. net debt. If iScotland didn’t agree to that, it would be shut out of the global financial system immediately.

  150. Northcode

    @A Scot Abroad 5:32pm

    Okay, @A Scot Abroad, you’ve convinced me of the flaw in my argument.

    It seems that not only is Scotland’s oil more expensive than the rest of the world’s, but its electricity, too.

    Oh wait…just noticed your use of the term “existing technology”.

    And you were so close to winning that one. Next time, maybe.

  151. James Jones

    Northcode at 4:47 pm.
    “Do you really believe the international community would turn its back on Scotland and refuse to trade?”

    If it tried to walk away without an agreed referendum or terms, its leaders would be tried for sedition, and we know the international community allowed sentencing to happen in the case of Catalonia.

    Independence requires a convincing majority and there seems to be little in the way of novel, persuasive argument to get there, you’re either ‘For’ or ‘Against’ and it’s stalemate with ‘Against’ just ahead. If anything the arguments are antagonistic. What’s needed is a genuine management plan for an independent Scotland answering all those questions about banking, the border, trade in a convincing manner. Let’s see what Jamie Hepburn can come up with, but I won’t hold my breath. Hopefully he can do better than simply stoking up the believers with extensive yet unhelpful definitions of ‘colonialism’.

    Northcode said,
    “Scotland’s renewable energy output alone would have Europe falling over itself to do business with an independent Scotland.”

    A Scot Abroad has already put that one to bed even if you still suppose that Scotland has more wind and solar than other European countries can generate for themselves. (Let’s not get confused by the unfortunate but official inclusion of imported wood in the ‘renewables’ trading market.)

  152. A Scot Abroad


    what I say is demonstrable. Using existing technology, renewable energy exported from
    Scotland is going to be more expensive in mainland Europe than energy they can generate locally.

    If you are relying on some as yet uninvented unicorn technology that turns that equation around, you are more bonkers and out of touch than you first appeared. Start by telling us what that technology will be, who is developing it, and when it’s going to be ready for market. Then tell us who in Scotland is going to finance it.

  153. John Main

    @Northcode 4:47

    You’re too stupid

    Leave that one out, eh?

    As plain as the nose on your face, most of our elected politicos, and our fraudulently elected FM, are stupid with stilts on. Ditto their policies, from leaving the oil and gas in the ground, through swearing blind that guys are gals, via “asking nicely” for Indy, to attempting to build ferries out of £20 notes.

    And a substantial group of Scots are so stupid they vote for these eejits, over and over.

    So drop the “too stupid” counter argument. As Rev Stu’s articles show, and most BTL posters agree, we are world-class at stupid. The best, wee, stupid country in the world. The only aspirationally independent country that seeks to defend its unique culture, heritage, languages, legal system, etc by outsourcing its leadership, yet still expects to be taken seriously.

    The next elections, at which Scots will have the opportunity to show that collectively we are not too stupid to learn, are still years away.

    Until then – too stupid? – guilty as charged.

  154. Northcode

    @A Scot Abroad 5:32pm

    Does that mean, while we’re waiting for new technology enabling the transfer of cheap Scottish electricity to the WHOLE of Europe, that England would be Scotland’s only customer?

    If the laws of physics mean that Scotland can’t sell electricity to Europe, does that mean England can’t buy it’s electricity from Europe – because of physics and all?

    Which would mean England would have to buy at least some of its electricity from Scotland?

    Either that or cover most of its land mass with wind turbines, or fill up its coastline with them.

    Yet another extremely valuable revenue stream for an independent Scotland.

  155. Tinto Chiel

    @ASA 1.31: right, so these senior American military men (MacGregor was a Colonel who saw much military action and was later senior defence adviser in the White House and Ritter was a UN weapons inspector and Marine Corps veteran) are shills for Rooshia?

    Desperate stuff.

    @John Main: can the faux outrage and insults. Away and educate yourself about the American-financed Maidan coup in 2014 which undermined the democratically-elected government of U. Also, take a look at the extreme, nationalist element in the U army which began a military campaign under the new regime against the ethnic Rooshians in the eastern provinces where thousands of these civilians have been killed. These extremists are the fascists I’m talking about, as I’m sure you know.

    Examine also how, to make things worse, the USA/UK/EU have pursued the insane idea of trying to extend a NATO border right up to Rooshian territory (despite assurances by American Secretary of State James Baker after the Soviet Union broke up that this would not happen) and provoked tensions to danger levels we haven’t seen since the Cuban missile crisis.

    Poking the Rooshian Bear by not implementing Minsk I and II (Merkel has already admitted her inaction, and France’s) and permitting the continual killing of ethnic Rooshian civilians signalled to it that the words of western politicians could simply not be trusted and everything that has happened since has merely confirmed that. This is beyond crazy.

    Tell you what: I’ll happily give it a rest if you will. I’ve got better things to do on a Saturday night, so enjoy the rest of your evening.

  156. Xaracen

    Just for your information, ASA, The UK’s GERS reports typically put Scotland’s population share of the UK’s oil revenues at around 8%. But our population share is what literally belongs to us, and 96% plus of the UK’s oil is in Scotland’s part of the continental shelf, so that’s our real population share, and the revenues from it are supposed to match it. Perhaps you’d like to explain why they never do under English establishment accounting.

    You might also explain to us why almost all of Scotland’s exports leave the UK via English ports, and any relevant tax revenues or duties are then recorded as England’s because they left from England. If their reporting systems can pin them down as having left England then they can damn well pin down that they were exported by Scotland. The same goes for commercial companies HQ’d in England but generating their main profits in Scotland, who have their company taxes credited as England’s where they were paid, but not credited to Scotland which created profits.

    And another issue, identified by prof Richard Murphy, where Scottish government spending in England generates, via well-known fiscal multipliers, tax payments in England. In the world of commercial accounting, any new revenue generated by such spending to spark it off, has to be strictly accredited to the spending account. These accreditations are called accruals, and is mandatory in normal accounting practice, but it just doesn’t happen with Scottish government spending, resulting in SG spending in England for whatever services or goods they were spent for, generating taxes paid in England that are accredited to England rather than to Scotland.

    There are a large number of such sleekit interventions, and they all tend to favour England but never seem to favour Scotland, and they add up to great benefit to England, and great detriment to Scotland. As someone pointed out recently, when many coincidences line up like that, aren’t really coincidences; they spell collusion.

  157. John Main

    insane idea of extending a NATO border up to …

    I guess we have to ignore the fact that annexation of country 404 would extend a Russti border up to …

    So what then for you? Post about how annexation of the next country in line is justified?

    Yeah, give it a rest.

    Take some time out to ponder why you extend the right to freedom and self-determination to us Scots.

    And nae ither cunts.

    Take some time out to consider the optics of a self-proclaimed Indy supporter, from behind his keyboard, dissing those who are fighting and dying for their Indy.

  158. John McGregor

    Mr/Mrs?? Fraud n Corruption has played indy voters for fools since it flounced intae Bute hoose #dreamsdeid

  159. John McGregor

    Mr/Mrs?? Fraud n Corruption has played indy voters for fools since it flounced intae Bute hoose

  160. Ian Brotherhood

    @John Main (7.37) –

    If you can resist the temptation to resort to ad hominem, please point to one statement in Tinto Chiel’s 7.05 which is incorrect.

    I’m not the only one who would appreciate it – you appear to be triggered every time this topic is raised and that doesn’t help the rest of us to understand your reasoning.

  161. Northcode

    @John Main 6:35pm

    “Your too stupid”

    I understand where you’re coming from, John. I really do.

    But “Your too stupid” is something Scotland has been told again and again by the unionists.

    And it seems to me that “Your too stupid” is a valid statement to highlight when it is used to insult the people of Scotland.

    I believe, when I feel that it supports any point I might be trying to make in a comment, that its use within the context of that comment is acceptable.

    So, for that reason, I’ll carry on saying “Your too stupid” when the need arises.

  162. James Che

    Deliberate obfuscation is the opposing arguments.

    Scot Abroad.

    If Scotland votes to join the EU fair enough after independence
    If they decide not to join fair enough after independence.
    That would be up to the Scots in s democratic Scotland..

    What deficit?
    At present the Scottish devolved Government is of course not Scottish, it is a legislation act from Westminster.
    It is Westminsters financial deficit.
    Remember that the bank of England is the bank of England and Wales.
    There is no national debt in Scotland as Scotland was dissolved and extingushed from that burden in 1707.

  163. A Scot Abroad


    your lack of knowledge about physics, engineering and the energy market would shame a primary school child. I suspect that a toddler knows more about those matters than you do. And now you display yet further ignorance about geographic distance.

    The distance using the Channel inter-connectors between French and English grid infrastructure (and 13 nuclear power stations) is around 70-90 miles, and there are seven of those inter-connectors already built. Energy exchanges both ways, often several times a day, depending upon load and supply.

    The distance between Scotland and France is around 500-700 miles, there aren’t any inter-connectors yet built, and Ohm’s law means that over that sort of distance, there’s around a 30% loss of energy. Which means that each unit of energy delivered would be about 43% more expensive to deliver if the cost of production is the same. And the cost of production isn’t the same for existing power stations. Nuclear is far cheaper than wind if a nuclear plant is already in existence. Wind is cheaper than nuclear over a whole life basis, but that’s not what the markets think about.

    You aren’t alone in your ignorance: the Scottish Government haven’t yet cottoned onto commercial realities yet, either. Scottish renewables export makes a nice theory for the clueless lions in the indy movement, but the people in the energy business know that it’s a nonsense.

  164. James Che

    Scot Abroad.

    In accordance with the laws of the UK?

    There is no such place as the UK.

    It was a fabrication, Scotland was ousted out remember by extinguishing it.
    United kingdoms by Monarchy? thats up to the sovereign Scots in Scotland I be

  165. A Scot Abroad

    James Che,

    with respect, I’m not going to continue to respond, because your entire existence seems to depend upon endlessly repeating some utter nonsense about Scotland not existing, according to your warped and mentally sub-normal misinterpretation of ancient guff that literally nobody else in the entire of humanity cares about.

  166. Joe

    Got a post put into moderation so I will just say this – the thing nobody is talking about in the U situation is the massive over representation of Jewish interests – from the Biden administration, to the U president himself, his advisors and his oligarch backers, to the mercenaries training and inciting the fascists (no actual national socialist would submit to being a pawn for the above).

    We are at the brink of WWIII and the Wests insane policies are largely pushed by Jewish interests. If you want a clear idea of how powerful those interests are consider that nobody wants to point out the above facts, including Russia.

    Feel free to fact check all of this, you can find Israeli news articles, photos, and general public information.

    That’s all I want to say.

  167. John Main

    @IB 8:10

    At 7:37 and earlier, I asked why Indy for other sovereign nations must seemingly be vetoed cos it supposedly pokes the bear. No real answer, other than the bear is a big, nasty bully with some serious weapons and plenty of threats to use them

    I have no fundamental problem with those people who are shitting themselves, as long as they are honest. But the shitters are not honest. They come up with all sort of reasons why 404 fails the ideological purity tests, so does not deserve Indy. They won’t come clean and say that in their world view, no country gets Indy if a big, nasty neighbouring bully says “no way” and threatens to impact their comfortable, secure lives.

    If you can’t see how that precedent holes Scottish Indy beneath the water line, then I can’t help you. All these thousands of posts on here, bemoaning our big, nasty neighbouring bully who says “no way” to us, yet some on here will still defend the bear, who is doing the same thing, plus with a side order of genocide.

    Hope this isn’t too ad hominem for you. As I wrote earlier, having an attack of the vapours over some online posts, whilst other Indy fighters are in trenches, risking life and limb while repelling murdering rapists, is poor optics for the attitudes of the Scottish Indy movement.

    I won’t bother going into the existential threat perceived by Poland, the Baltic countries, and others within the EU. Plenty on here claim that Scotland’s Indy future lies with the EU. If so, to sabotage that future by siding with the country threatening the countries we want to align ourselves with is pure folly.

  168. James Che

    I will have to spell this out.
    Any and all legislation and laws that have been imposed on Scotland from Westminster since the 1707/Scottish parliament was extinguished from the treaty of union simple by a agreement contract and was then also was later dissolved in England.
    Does not have to adhere to the Scotland Act.

    Everything that was superficially imposed without the Scottish parliament being in the treaty falls by the wayside.

  169. Tinto Chiel

    @JM: I noticed that you ignored almost all of the substance of my previous response and relied on your previous tactics of false outrage with a new twist of offensive language, always a sign you’re losing the argument.

    The war needs to stop, and stop now and proper negoitiations must begin before more people are killed and the world lurches close to nuclear Armageddon.

    Those in the West who are happy to fight to the last U. citizen in a terrible war which its politicians have largely fomented while keeping safely out of it themselves and making lots of arms-related moola from human misery should be particularly ashamed.

    And keyboard warriors like you, of course, who refuse to see there are always two sides to a story yet punt your own distorted and unbalanced view free of consequence. Since it’s obvious now that you’re not arguing in good faith and have nothing new to say, I’ll not waste any more time on you.

  170. James Che

    James Jones.

    What terms and conditions

    Ohh you mean the terms and conditions that Scotland would have been liable for if it had not been extinguished and dissolved from the treaty of union in 1707.

    Dissolved from all terms and conditions as the UK parliament succinctly state, extinguished from being a part of the treaty. Dissolved of all responsibilty.

  171. James Che

    Scot Abroad.

    Chosen not to understand is your perogative.

    Although I remember reading you’re earlier posts telling everyone here there was no treaty of union since 1707.

    Scotland exists all right, but as you yourself stated the treaty of the union does not.

  172. Ian Brotherhood

    @John Main (8.52) –

    Sorry J but I’m not buying it.

    You are either mischief-making or willfully ignorant of the facts as stated by Tinto and others.

    The gravity of the situation we are now in is not of R*ssia’s making and I suspect you know that full well.

    The evidence of long-term US/UK planning for this ‘war’ is voluminous but forbidden to British eyes. In an independent Scotland, with its own mainstream media, we could make decisions regarding appropriate ‘censorship’ but those decisions are currently made in Whitehall/Broadcasting House and there’s hee-haw we can do about it.

    So, to put it bluntly, you don’t know what you’re talking about and no-one here should tolerate your hectoring on the subject.

    BTW, have you noticed the gradual disappearance of blue-yellow flags in gardens and windows? The majority of ordinary citizens are not as daft as you, apparently, think we are.


  173. John Main


    It’s real outrage, not false.

    Never thought it would come to this, but a quote from Braveheart seems apt:


    Google what that means TC.

    As you write though, your time can be better utilised elsewhere. Plenty of people missing husbands, sons, fathers, daughters, kids, homes, towns, jobs, futures. Go tell them to “negotiate properly” with the regime that denies their right to exist.

    And don’t be a keyboard warrior about it. Go tell them to “negotiate properly” face to face.

    Boy o boy. I’d pay good money for a ringside seat at that encounter!

  174. Dan

    To offset the difference between England’s electricity generation and demand, net positive transfers were received from Scotland and Wales, as well as from continental Europe via the France, Netherlands, Belgium, and Norway interconnectors (the Norway interconnector came online in October 2021). During 2021, these
    sources provided 20.0 per cent of England’s total electricity consumption, up 2.7 percentage points from 2020.

  175. John Main

    @James Che 9:13

    Sadly, some on here believe that when a bigger imperialist country denies the right of its smaller neighbour to exist … then that’s just fine.

    Two sides to every story, just got to negotiate in good faith, blah, blah, blah.

    Kinda holes your arguments beneath the water line. Soz.

  176. James Che

    Jame jones

    Sedition For leaving 300 years ago by the choice of westminster, what a silly comment.

  177. John Main


    You choose to overlook who invaded who.

    You choose to overlook whose country is being occupied and destroyed.

    You choose to believe that the invaders, occupiers and destroyers are helpless dupes, dancing on strings pulled by the evil west.

    You choose to believe that the fighters defending their homes, families, nation and culture are deluded fools.

    Soz, but you are in no fit mental state to participate in any online debate. Get some help.

  178. Northcode

    @Dan 9:29pm

    Thanks for the info, Dan. And for a point succinctly made.

  179. Northcode

    @A Scot Abroad 8:34pm

    Who is this toddler? And why isn’t it Scotland’s Minister of Energy?

    I actually have a masters in physics, @A Scot Abroad. I was just having a bit of fun.

    Some of the technical gubbins you puffed out is, of course, correct – for now.

    And no doubt England could cover itself in radioactive power stations to meet its leccy needs.

    I was making a point about Scotland’s abundant natural resources, and that Scotland could certainly power itself without the need to use nuclear power stations, or be forced to buy it’s energy from the English, or the French, or anybody else.

    You need to be more flexible in the way you think, or maybe just try…no, I’m not going to say it.

    Why are you so rude, by the way?

    There we were, having a pleasant chitchat about energy and physics and stuff, I have to be honest and admit I nodded off for some of it, and then you have to go and ruin it.

  180. Ian Brotherhood

    @ John Main (9.45) –

    I said, good-NIGHT sah!

  181. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi James Jones at 6:02 pm.

    You opined,
    “If it tried to walk away without an agreed referendum or terms, its leaders would be tried for sedition, and we know the international community allowed sentencing to happen in the case of Catalonia.”

    Again, like others. you are gibberin’ braille.

    At any national election, if pro-independence parties in Scotland have in their manifestos, that a majority for pro-independence parties constitutes a mandate to negotiate independence, then that is the situation.

    Your crap about “sedition” is a diversion.
    Our situation would be INTERNATIONALLY recognised.

  182. Northcode

    @James Che 9:39pm

    I had an idea you would be first to point out that bit of nonsense, James.
    And you haven’t disappointed.

  183. A Scot Abroad


    a Master of physics? You? If you actually had a proper Masters, you wouldn’t post the utter nonsense that precipitated this sub-branch of the thread. Or did you get your pretendy-Masters from that pretendy-“university” Napier, the jumped up poly that the pretendy-“Professor” Alf Baird claims as his own as he writes non-peer reviewed (and academically widely rejected) sewage about colonialism?

  184. akenaton

    Hi John, I’m a very surprised at your rather simplistic views on the R v U war. I B is correct that the West have been stirring up trouble there for years, not to mention the broken promises made by NATO regarding eastward expansion.
    P asked for guarantees on this expansion which would have stopped the violence and worldwide danger before it even started and was refused. For what reason? Uke has been disputed territorially for decade and falls outside of any NATO remit.
    We all complain quite rightly about the social changes being enacted by Sturgeon and her acolytes but berate P for wishing to keep his nation clear of “Western Values”, which are certainly not the ones you and I were taught to respect.

    I think every thinking person realises that the Eastern block are scared shitless, not over F11 aircraft and smart drones, but a Western social ideology which will result in disaster and starvation for millions.

  185. Dan

    @ Northcode

    As England still generates a lot of its required electrical power by burning gas in Combined Cycle Gas Turbines. It’s worth noting just where all that gas come from, because a great deal of it is not from within England’s geographic area.

    The annual capacity of the Langeled pipeline is 25.5 billion cubic metres (900 billion cubic feet). That equates to some 20% of Britain’s peak gas demand.
    (And that’s through a 725 mile long pipeline so nae ohm’s law issues in play there then…)

    Around 30% of all natural gas used in the UK comes onshore at St Fergus, near Peterhead for processing (by Shell and other plants); typically 20% of this is domestic gas supply, and the rest comes from Norway.

    Scotland has about 65% of the UK’s gas reserves, yet we only have about 9% of the population.

  186. A Scot Abroad


    if you think that Ohm’s law applies to gas being delivered by relative pressure differential over a 725 mile long pipeline, then you probably haven’t the scientific or engineering knowledge to usefully contribute to this discussion.

  187. McDuff

    Brilliant piece rev, you keep on exposing them for what they are.

  188. James Jones

    Brian Doonthetoon at 9:53 pm
    “At any national election, if pro-independence parties in Scotland have in their manifestos, that a majority for pro-independence parties constitutes a mandate to negotiate independence, then that is the situation.”

    It’s not the same thing unless they said they had no policies except independence and that’s all you’ll be voting for.

    “Your crap about “sedition” is a diversion.
    Our situation would be INTERNATIONALLY recognised.”

    Why didn’t it work for the Catalans?

  189. A Scot Abroad

    Scotland can gave their indy ref at any election they want. You just get the Greens, SNP, Alba and whoever else wants to join in by declaring a manifesto of one point: that a vote for that party will be taken as a vote for indy, and that the party has no other policies.

    That’s a sure way to get some of the votes in an election. And entirely within Scots’ power. No need to reference or ask Westminster.

    But it’s only going to be about 30% of the votes on current polling, because at least 20% of Scots who might want to vote indy won’t do so unless the indy loons actually come up with some positive policies about how to run the boring stuff about an iScotland. Currency, central bank, trade deals, etc.

  190. Dan

    It appears the arrogant know all bot like entity is confuzzled as I said Ohm’s Law IS NOT and issue with pipelines… Only a fucking dolt would think it was!

    I do know a bit about Ohm’s Law though as built, serviced, and piloted million quid ROV systems used to get all that wrong type of Scottish oil and gas out of the ground below the sea.
    EG. We had 3 phase 440V power fed into our power control panel, and when mobilising a system I would calculate and adjust the transformer tappings to compensate for the voltage drop over what could be a 3 km long umbilical cable, to ensure the 3 phase 1000 volt supply was within acceptable parameters to power our 100 hp electric motors driving our hydraulic pump unit.
    Later models we built increased to use 3000 volts to reduce current load over longer umbilical lengths to power 120hp motors used in deeper water interventions.
    I also helped with the development testing trials of the new motors which had an array of sensors installed within the oil filled motor casings to monitor temps of the windings during various load simulations.
    But fuck it, all that probably means I’m still an armature in your mind…

    @ Northcode

    Another link that may interest you is about electricity grid connection charges.

  191. Beauvais

    Ascot Abroad @11:12 pm

    Turns out you couldn’t have been more wrong Ascot.

    Dan clearly has the scientific and engineering knowledge to contribute to the discussion.

    What may we ask are your engineering bona fides?

  192. A Scot Abroad


    your subsea ROVs and their sensors didn’t operate over 500 miles from your control ship. If they did, you’d have had to account for Ohm’s law in your application of power.

    Why not try reading what I wrote, and applying some of your engineering knowledge to it? Or better yet, as you clearly don’t like facts from a unionist, reading what many others say about the engineering challenges of putting a serious amount of energy along big distances? It’s a real problem.

  193. Northcode

    @Dan 12:11pm

    Thanks, Dan. Very helpful. It’s good to get the facts from someone who actually knows what they’re talking about. And just to be clear, I mean you.

  194. Mia

    “Why didn’t it work for the Catalans?”

    Because Catalonia is not in a political union with Spain based on an international treaty, subjected to international law, like Scotland is with England.

  195. John Main

    @akenaton says:20 May, 2023 at 10:25 pm

    We all complain quite rightly about the social changes being enacted by Sturgeon and her acolytes but berate P for wishing to keep his nation clear of “Western Values”, which are certainly not the ones you and I were taught to respect

    Careful where you are heading with that one. You could end up, like one poster on here, claiming that P killing kids is a good thing, cos it stops the kids falling into the hands of western-corrupted pedos.

    I think every thinking person realises that the Eastern block are scared shitless, not over F11 aircraft and smart drones, but a Western social ideology which will result in disaster and starvation for millions

    Hmmm. Not sure quite who you mean by the Eastern block, and I share your concerns over some of our western social ideology. But nobody is enforcing that ideology on us at gun, bomb, shell and missile point. Just as nobody was enforcing that on R via military aggression.

    The only one using overt, lethal, military aggression against a foreign country is R.

    You have to be very careful with the ideological purity, because once you start down that path, it’s all too easy to look at the bodies of the kids being dug out from beneath the collapsed residential homes, schools and hospitals, hundreds of miles from the front lines, and say “they had it coming”.

    A common and popular verdict on here at one time.

    And as I have said, you have to be careful, especially on a Scottish Indy site, with all arguments leading to the conclusions that one country has no right to exist, or one country’s imperialist, colonialist, murderous aggression is justified.

    IMO, that this needs to be spelled out, and repeated so often, demonstrates a fundamental lack of clarity at the centre of some pro-Indy supporter’s thinking. With this muddle in clear sight, it is hardly surprising that the wider Indy movement has turned into a shitshow of mythic proportions.

  196. Dan

    @ Northcode

    Happy to post links to stuff that folk may not be aware of, or just as a reminder of older relevant but possibly forgotten articles.

    Look at ASA back again trying to find an angle to attack whilst deflecting from dealing with the fact that as shown, England is a net importer of various different types of energy.
    His apparent infatuation with ohm’s law and 500 mile distances seems rather misplaced as clearly England obtains a lot of the deficit in energy it has from within those distances.
    It waffles on about energy transmission losses and simultaneously questions why geographic areas would buy energy from surpluses elsewhere when they could just produce it themselves cheaper, whilst completely overlooking the fact that he lives in an area that has to import significant amounts of energy because they don’t produce enough themselves…

    Then it wants to stop using our own oil and gas from our areas where we could have a semblance of control over the resources, and instead import it from far flung areas where we have no control over aspects of production and price due to external market forces. And what about those transmission / transportation losses and financial and environmental costs of using huge bunker fuel burning tankers to transport it here.

    It’s just repeating stuff we went over shortly after it rocked up a month back. HVDC connections to mainland Europe are viable as can be seen by the Norwegian inter-connector coming on line recently, and the proposed Celtic connector from Ireland to France. Nobody other than it is suggesting laying 2000 mile long inter-connectors, so it’s trying to bring in significant technical difficulties that aren’t relevant.

  197. Northcode

    This from @A Scot Abroad, or actually King Charles III as I’ve discovered (how’s Camilla the day, Charles).

    I don’t mind a bit of fun-poking in an exchange of arguments. But resorting to nasty personal attacks in an attempt to prove your argument, is stupid and pointless.

    You’re never going to win someone over by insulting them. Quite the opposite.

    A Scot Abroad says:
    20 May, 2023 at 10:20 pm

    a Master of physics? You? If you actually had a proper Masters, you wouldn’t post the utter nonsense that precipitated this sub-branch of the thread. Or did you get your pretendy-Masters from that pretendy-“university” Napier, the jumped up poly that the pretendy-“Professor” Alf Baird claims as his own as he writes non-peer reviewed (and academically widely rejected) sewage about colonialism?

    How dare you, Sir?

    How dare you drag the brilliant Prof. Alf Baird’s good name through the sewage (quite literary-ally in your poorly worded comment).

    And how can Alf’s paper have been ‘academically widely rejected’ if it hasn’t been peer reviewed by his academic peers?

    Also, how dare you question the validity of my masters degree in physics from the online university of ‘GetitRightRoonYeYaFanny’.

    I’ll have you know my degree cost me $59.99 – I also bought the bonus pack entitled “How to Talk Pish About Physics” for an extra $5.99. And there was I thinking a university education was going be expensive too? Not a bit of it. Almost as cheap as chips, and fish.

    Anyway, because Charles was rude to Alf, I’ve included links to Alf’s paper. I can’t get the link to his book to work so I’ve just given the title.

    Alf Baird’s Paper: The Socio-Political Determinants of Scottish Independence

    Alf Baird’s Paper: Summarised version

    Alf’s Book – Doun-Hauden-Socio-Political-Determinants-Scottish-Independence(Kindle version)

  198. Northcode

    Thanks again, Dan.

    It’s important to highlight some of the guff coming from unionists about how Scotland is ‘too stupid’…blablabla.

    It’s good that WoS has commenters like yourself who actually know what they’re talking about.

    Because, and I’m sure you clicked straight away, I don’t have a masters in physics. 🙂

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top