Free beer tomorrow
Posted on
July 06, 2022 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
You know how the SNP are always going on about how bad the Tories are and how urgently we need to get rid of them? Well, it turns out they don’t want that to happen for at least a couple of years. They just want a different Tory as Prime Minister, even though they keep telling us that Boris Johnson is the greatest recruiting sergeant for independence there could be.
That’s odd, isn’t it?
SKY:This is a formal call by the leader of the Labour Party for a general election to be held. Is that the SNP’s position?
SMITH:No it’s not.
Are you seeing it yet?
The eyebrow just proving further that sturgeon’s latest pish is a con, she disnae want an early election because she’s shite scared that the chickens are coming home to roost and the voters are becoming wise to her lies
So it’s win-win for MI5. Their Stooges’ National Party comes out with its latest BCP (Baldrick Cunning Plan): namely, BJ is the single best recruiting sergeant for Scottish independence, and we want rid of him as soon as possible. The SNP loses credibility, the Scottish independence movement suffers, and Westminster gets a new PM who (they hope) will be better able to crush these rebellious Scots. Come on, Scotland, political leadership is too important to be entrusted to politicians!
Can the SNP afford to stand enough candidates & run a campaign in a UK General Election at the moment?
Are they feart of losing seats, thus control of ‘the movement’? (They should be & hell fucking mend them for their arrogance)
Also, if ‘plebiscitary election’ becomes a thing (it won’t), logically, SNP et al. will have to stand candidates outwith Scotland to drive the numbers as high as possible, if only votes count.
[WM group had talked about candidates elsewhere post 2015 GE, as revealed in a discussion I had with a Glasgow MP in George Square on the matter. 2 elections later, idea must’ve been canned]
But, what happens if a party in England stands on the single issue of ‘Scotland not gaining independence without a referendum in 2099’?
WM Parliament & the Queen would face a bit of a dilemma…
I digress.
The easiest route to a referendum is for it to be run privately, and the result presented directly to the Monarch.
Claim of right Act 1689 allows for this.
It would be a legal route to independence.
Scotland is already recognised by the international community, regardless of what some have said in the past.
Scots law isn’t just for local people & local treaties.
Thanks for the clip – eye-opening. My initial reaction to Smith’s lack of enthusiasm for a snap GE was that this was sensible caution. The Tories would do so badly, with Johnson’s own seat vulnerable, that he would almost certainly be ousted as leader. So why rush into a GE that would remove the ‘best recruiting sergeant’?
But having watched the clip, I see what you mean: ‘We need to find a way out of this, & that’s the exit of Boris Johnson’. So Smith is happy for the Tories to stay in power, as long as they’re no longer led by Johnson. Hmm, it does indeed make you think.
Scott says:
The easiest route to a referendum is for it to be run privately, and the result presented directly to the Monarch.
Claim of right Act 1689 allows for this.
It would be a legal route to independence.
No idea what the legal position is on this, but I’m surprised the idea hasn’t been more widely proposed. Maybe Alba or Yes Scotland would take it up? Crowdfunding would easily cover the costs, if it was felt to be a viable proposition.
So were only going to have a Westminster election as a plebiscite provided its on the SNP time scale. Really the SNP are running scared of a Westminster election and Smith has only just proven that we aren’t having a Plebiscite not this year or the next. How we have all been conned.
Hasn’t Smith actions just shown why UK should call an early election because the SNP aren’t prepared at all.
I’m sure Sturgeon said the next Westminster election would act as a Plebiscite to a de-facto referendum.
Lynne says:
6 July, 2022 at 3:37 am
Thanks for the clip – eye-opening. My initial reaction to Smith’s lack of enthusiasm for a snap GE was that this was sensible caution.
Smith was on stage at Bannockburn rabbiting on about unity in the YES movement and everybody working together, and literally, as he walked off stage seconds later, David Henry from the SSRG asked if he’d come to the SSRG’s Conference, to which Smith replied “Absolutely not, never”. Some brass neck eh?
Smith’s a big enough bullshitting charlatan to rival the mighty Sturgeon herself.
I cannot think of a single member of the SNP I would trust less. (and there is stiff competition for that accolade).
That there’s a vocal faction childish “activists” within the SNP who vilify the statesmanship Alex Salmond at every opportunity, but are utterly blind to this perfidious hypocrite Smith, speaks volumes about the chronic lack of intellect and critical judgement running around the SNP.
For health and safety reasons, Alyn Smith should be fitted with an orange strobe to alert people to the presence of a hazard.
“But it is also down to him personally. He is probably the biggest single recruiting sergeant that we have, and for that we mightily thank him…”
Inadvertant truth from Mr Wishart.
What more would the sideshow hucksters that comprise the SNP Mum’s ( Salvation ) Army have to do to convince more people of their utter two-faced bullshit ; take out a front page ad in the National saying ” We’re Taking The Pish ; Our careers Are too important to jeopardise with something as trivial as Independence ” ?
* Six page feature inside *
If Bawbag goes ( by no means certain ) it will represent another goal-scoring opportunity blootered over the bar by Nikki’s Club-Footed 11 .
His – putative – replacement may not present such an easy target and will be hailed as a * New Broom * sweeping away the chaotic , corruption of the Johnson era .
It will of course be nothing of the kind , merely a less cartoonishly calamitous continuation of the ongoing Tory Right Wing devastation of any/all notions of social justice .
” Now ” will still not be the time to * grant * a S30
Which will suit the SNP Management just fine
Snp seem caught well off guard by last night’s events. Think Sturgeons game is up too.
Daddy continues in his role as spokesperson for smarmy wee shites
How are we to get NS out?
When Smith says “we need to find a way out of this and that is the exit of Boris Johnson.”
We = NewSNP arses
This = Nicola’s desperate Hail Mary on independence route.
Smith – making political capital out of current UKGov binfire is a bit rude. Keep the heid let them reorganise. We are so far away from the nous of 2014.
The SNP really should have seen this coming. They should have had a Plan C ready on the shelf, just in case. Apparently not. I suppose something daft will be quickly cobbled together.
They really,really don’t want a general election do they.?
Surely the whole plan was not hoping an unpopular Johnson remained in power ?
‘We’ need to find a way out of this: ‘we’ being?
I think the joke may be on us
What a joy yesterday was. Not least for all the calls for the SNP to leap into action and declare UDI, or to bring back all our MP’s fae WM or whatever. None of that will happen, of course.
A GE now, would be disaster for the SNP. They go into it expressly rejecting the idea of it being a plebescite because…well they’re waiting for the SC’s decision aren’t they. They’ll lose more of their loyal (but teetering on the edge) voters.
Alba, if they’re up for it, *should field as many candidates as possible if there is a GE so that SNP’s grip on our WM seats is finally broken. Not so they can settle in like the SNP did – but so they can pull back politicians to Edinburgh to complete whatever route they want to take for independence. And more Scots WILL vote for Alba this time. What a teeth grinder for the Murrells eh.
Looking forward to the SAS storming No10 for the seige. Bojo slumped up against that big black door with 6 bags of Doritos surrounded by half empty bottles of Bolly.
D
id ask on twittersphere during FM’s comedy performance -what happens when a GE is called pre October 2023?
Bugger Le Panda says:
6 July, 2022 at 7:20 am
How are we to get NS out?
My idea is that we stop accepting the ‘pseudo referendum’ shit and insist on a proper legal referendum as promised by Nicola Sturgeon.
Stop going on and on about how well this ‘pseudo referendum’ shit will work and start protesting.
It’s not our problem if Boris says no. That’s for Sturgeon to sort out.
If she can’t sort it out she has to go.
Patricia Spencer says:
6 July, 2022 at 7:45 am
what happens when a GE is called pre October 2023?
Good question!
Tories in charge of the timing of ‘Nicola’s pseudo referendum’
I can’t see an early GE happening. The Tories have an 80-seat majority so why would so many of them want to put themselves potentially out of a job? FFS we see how desperately the SNP want to cling onto their salaries and gold-plated expense accounts.
It’d suit The Sturgeonator just fine though – “I said the General Election AFTER the Supreme Court decision…” while all her sheep baa’d pathetically along.
The NuSNP are more worried about the meltdown in Bozo the clowns government than the Tories are because it could destroy their cunning plan to con/blackmail Scots into giving them another 5 years of Westminster.
If they were truly for Independence and had anyone capable of even basic strategic thinking today would be a big day … instead the most we will get is a few soundbites.
Fully expect even if some Labour/Tory MP develop a spine and try to force through a vote of no confidence in Westminster SNP will either abstain or vote to save him and then try to justify it as another step in Nicola’s great secret plan
The SNP are skint. So a snap election might prove problematic.
The genderwoowoo would be an election issue.
Alba should stand candidates.
I don’t like Alyn Smyth, but I don’t for the life of me ‘get’ most of the comments here.
If the plan is for a plebiscitary GE after the Supreme Court rules that Scotland cannot have a referendum, then obviously a GE before the Supreme Court ruling would be a disaster. The SNP is simply not ready, and while a referendum is still theoretically possible a single issue GE is probably unwise.
As for condemning Johnson and calling for his removal – we’ll, that is just the essential public soundbite. Being seen to support Johnson specifically for his incompetence would soon be jumped all over by the media.
I don’t think there is anything to see here.
I’m getting totally mixed up now.
‘Nicola’s pseudo referendum’ will be on Thursday, May 2, 2024 unless the Tories decide otherwise.
The ‘Holyrood Referendum’ will be held on 18th October 2023 if the SC say they can.
Is that correct?
What about a referendum like we had in 2014 which I believe is what most people were expecting when they voted for Sturgeon in the last Holyrood election.
@Scots renewable,
Quote Wishart. ” He is probably the biggest recruiting sergeant we ever had, and we thank him”.
Doesn’t sound problematic for Wishart to support him.
It does however reveal the SNP need Johnson in situ. They want an election against this universally discredited individual rather than someone who is practical and steady.
The “baw” as they say is “up on the slates”.
What is their back up plan?
Golly! The SNP lost their chance in 2015 to hold a convocation of MSPs and MPs and take a vote on immediate secession.. A two-thirds majority for independence was available. It idid not happen.
In an independent Scotland there would be little need for the SNP. These people do not wish to retire “job done” but to hold onto power for as long as they can. It would be very nice if they were able to manage the country and look after the people, but that is not happening, is it?
After independence the natural order would surely resume, Tories, Labour and loonies all offering us a better future.
(On a historical note, the Kosovo Assembly voted to be independent. The UK recognised Kosovo as a sovereign country without 24 hours! Kosovo!)
Westminster – now that Brexit is done and the tax havens saved – has one single priority just now, that trumps all.
THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE SCOTLAND.
Everything, is now tailored to that end, everything.
If there is a snap GE in October of This Year, it will be because polling in Scotland is scaring the shit out of them re support for indy.
If there is a snap GE in October of this year, it will severely limit our time to
1/ hold it as a plebiscite indy election,
2/ establish electable and credible candidates in each constituancy as a back up to the current SNP placemen/wxn.
It doesn’t matter to the British Establishment if they have a Tory or a Labour Government in power – both will do everything to hold onto Scotland – there is no difference.
So, from that perspective, the potential for a snap GE, between now and May 2024 is very, very real, and has no bearing on how many seats majority they currently have.
@ Ruby at 8:53am
Indeed. Crikey, the way things are going it might be best if Ruth Davidson replaced the current leader of the SNP…
A retro look back to earlier days where what constituted a mandate for a referendum was even understood by unionists!
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-simple-ruth/
David Beveridge @ 8:29am:
Not foolproof reasoning, this, but the only reason I can think of is because they judge that they would be even more likely to lose by 2024, i.e. unpopular as they might be now, the only way is down from here, because of worse to come in terms of cost of living etc.
So, risk two more years to try and win now and gain three more years on top.
Alternatively they might want to lose so that Labour carry the can from the autumn onwards.
The counter is “why risk two years’ wages” and to a lot of us those wages would be life-changing but these sorts will get nice sinecures regardless…
Ha! Ha! Ha!
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20258824.snp-back-general-election-call-boris-johnson-engulfed-chaos%2F
SNP hedging their bets obviously.
Either that or the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing.
You decide.
ScotsRenewables,
I agree with you regarding the SNP plan that they wanted a plebiscitary vote as a backstop at the GE after the SC scrutiny (assuming it found in favour of Westminster) but “events dear boy, events”.
If there is a snap GE before SC ruling, then it seems to me the SNP have been caught napping and “Boris Johnson ate my homework” doesn’t cut it, what the fuck have they been doing for 8 years?
That’s a rhetorical question, we know the answer.
So if there is a snap GE, the SNP will be scurrying around and they will assess the new information, the new situation and carry on with their original plan.
I would like to say they can’t think on their feet but that would be far too kind, they just can’t think and “Daddy Bear” evidences this above.
It’s a new situation (whether there is an actual GE or not) which means there will be new opportunities, going on the last 8 years, what do you think the SNP will do with any new opportunities?
The reality is that its more than likely the UKSC will knock back any attempt to hold an indyref, and Sturgeon knows that, as do we.
So if the chance of an early GE comes around the SNP should be backing that to save us another few years of waiting for it. Smith by saying no it isn’t reveals that his boss Sturgeon wants to drag out the process.
That may well be part of her plan to rail bitterly when the UKSC says no the Scottish government can’t hold consultative indyref, thus endearing the Scottish public to her and increasing SNP membership and possibly public consent.
Like Brexit and the scandals that continues to plague this Tory government, opportunities for the SNP to find ways to leave this union are being passed over to suit Sturgeon’s ageneda.
Currently, in the wings, there is a Westminster plan to tear up the Treaty of Union and replace it with a new one, that has no regard or reference to Scottish Sovereignty and makes England supreme.
There is absolutely no difference in delivery of that policy between a Labour Government or a Tory Government… or even a Lib Dem government – all will, individually and acting together on this issue, ensure Scottish indy is dead.
It is, as it always has been, a sleight of hand con trick to pull us into the drama and make us think we are getting a change, when in fact it is very much, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
The only thing important about the current drama, is if it produces a GE date. In the mean time, we need to keep getting folk signed up to vote, aware of their Claim of Right, and ready to vote for Indy.
David Beveridge says:
6 July, 2022 at 8:29 am
I can’t see an early GE happening. The Tories have an 80-seat majority so why would so many of them want to put themselves potentially out of a job? FFS we see how desperately the SNP want to cling onto their salaries and gold-plated expense accounts.
It’d suit The Sturgeonator just fine though – “I said the General Election AFTER the Supreme Court decision…” while all her sheep baa’d pathetically along.
^^ This
The parties are all skint after the council elections, Labour’s only started recruiting a team to fight a GE with a month or so back (source, Order Order), there’s a certain business out east and Covid’s decided it wants to attempt more comebacks than Rod Stewart.
No way will a vote of no confidence be passed.
What may happen is some Tories cross the floor as Pro-EU Tories, but you can bet your bottom dollar that Tinfoil Theresa and Jeremy The Childcatcher won’t be among them.
Good at stirring up trouble like the school sneaks they are, but you can be damn sure they’ll make sure they’ll let others face the consequences of standing up and being counted.
As for the SNP, this business gets their own sexual perverts off the front pages for a bit, so no way do they want it stopped.
(Bloomberg) — China’s debt will likely hit a record this year as the central bank tries to boost credit and shore up the struggling economy, according to a government-backed think tank.
So the «ComiCap» locomotive of the world economy is on the same tracks as the rest, headed for destination Slump.
Is this the end of capitalism, globalism, interdependence? The end of the socio-political order confected by the big powers in the last century? The birth of new world order of the select few, those sinister young global leaders?
An independent Scotland is going to hit turbulence. Is it really prepared for a Jupiter like bumpy ride? Does anyone have an alternative idea, let alone a plan?
Scotland must avoid «spaghettification»*
* The process by which an object would be stretched and ripped apart by gravitational forces on falling into a black hole..
Sigh! One can but hope that NS and the SNP are able to adjust their referendum/ plebiscite plans accordingly as events unfold. Heck this BJ nonsense should have been expected and factored in and tested already – perhaps we expected too much lol. “Events, Dear Boy, Events!”.
I will be interested to see how NS reacts to this (in terms of (re)action, not soundbites). I would also like to know what AS and Alba would do – what they would do if they were in the SNP position, and what they will do in reality as the entire BJ/ WM mess continues to unravel.
I cannot stand that slippery individual. The Alyn Smith from the European Parliament and the one in Westminster seem like two different people, but that’s probably because we see a lot more of him. I wouldn’t trust him to tell me the time.
Ottomanboi,
I understand there’s trouble ahead globally but is there a phenomenon that will only affect an independent Scotland?
A bonus bump read in matters relating to Smith.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/two-woke-princes/
“I don’t like Alyn Smyth, but I don’t for the life of me ‘get’ most of the comments here.
If the plan is for a plebiscitary GE after the Supreme Court rules that Scotland cannot have a referendum, then obviously a GE before the Supreme Court ruling would be a disaster. The SNP is simply not ready, and while a referendum is still theoretically possible a single issue GE is probably unwise.”
Oh for Christ’s sake put the carrots down.
This, of course, is why Wings has been urging the SNP to get the Supreme Court bit out of the way for the last FOUR YEARS. But even leaving that aside, and even leaving aside the mad idea that there’s any doubt about the Supreme Court’s decision now that we know even the Lord Advocate doesn’t back the referendum bill:
Who, exactly, is going to change their mind about independence from Yes to No because we didn’t wait to go through the Supreme Court motions?
Also, since there isn’t going to BE a general election, why don’t the SNP call for one anyway, so they at least LOOK like they want the Tories out? Oh wait, it’s because the endlessly gullible will make excuses for them until the end of time anyway. Which is where you came in.
This is, at least in part, what I was on about to Ellis a couple of weeks back, after the AUOB Stirling march. (I couldn’t be explicit because of the ‘ban’ on certain topics.)
Mixed messages from the AUOB gathering.
For a start, the ‘TORIES OUT’ or ‘FUCK THE TORIES” or whatever-it-was banner. That phrase is as old as me, and that’s quite old. There’s nothing original, clever or interesting about it and as a statement of the bleedin obvious it would be hard to beat.
Secondly, the flying of blue/yellow flags representing another nation. At an AUOB march? Why? Is the suggestion that we would all welcome those people under ‘our’ banner. (News – many of us would not.)
Third – People festooned in flags, Scotland sports gear, encrustulated from head to toe in badges and with painted heads and pets is not appropriate. It’s not a fuckin party. The atmosphere in 2014 was completely different because we believed we were close to making history. For the same reason, the singing and roaring has to stop because it’s half-hearted and just not loud enough to be impressive. A silent sombre procession of people dressed entirely in black, led by the pipe band playing a dirge, would have more impact.
Add to that some recent confusion over whether or certain independence-supporting groups are not prepared to share a platform with anyone who is, in their view, a ‘TERF’, and we have a mess on our hands – this is not a cohesive movement. Less of a smorgasbord, more of a dog’s dinner.
Even if Johnson is removed, we could get someone far, far worse – not in terms of being a serial liar and pretendy buffoon (he’s not, by the way) – but in sheer vicious Tory toryism. If Nicola Sturgeon is removed, we will almost certainly get something infinitely worse, and Alyn Smith might well be it.
The SNP leadership and cohort have done nothing to advance independence in the past nearly eight years because they have other concerns. The party machine has been totally captured by vicious and thuggish ‘wokies’, headed by said Alyn Smith and others, such as John Nicholson. What the hell is a political party doing in promoting a nihilist movement, largely populated by people with paraphilias?
Most SNP supporters, and many other independence supporters, fail to understand what has happened to the party and why, because they also fail to understand the sheer evil that is Stonewall and the ‘trans’ movement, which is now, as we speak, morphing into an actual physically threatening entity (German, French and Spanish females all attacked physically in recent months). It is only a matter of time before it happens here, too, but don’t expect the SNP to pull back from the brink.
Few people (the Rev excepted) get this movement and just how dangerous it is. Not just for females, but for our society as a whole. Yet, the SNP is pushing this stuff from every angle, and the Stonewall placements are doing the job they were put there to do. The sheer scale of their operation, fanning out from the US and Canada is quite incredible and requires to be stopped very soon. In Scotland, it will be pushed through while we are preoccupied with the various independence options and non-options.
I simply do not believe that there is the slightest appetite for independence within the parliamentary party. As the Rev says, the Supreme Court issue could have been settled years ago. I would add that the Scottish constitutional tools have been known about for years, too, and they have systematically tried to quash all public knowledge of those. A referendum, I think, is a non-starter, and a plebiscitary election would require the entire independence movement, including the SNP, to ally and collaborate – just as all the Unionist parties do. If they are allowed to get away with it, the SNP will try a GE version of the SE and council elections ‘SNP 1 & 2’ – hoping to garner the votes to themselves for another term in office and yet another mandate. The gullible will be fewer this time, of course, but many will believe the brown stuff again.
There is now no other way but a direct confrontation with Westminster and the British State, and, probably, UDI at the end of it, hopefully backed by the Scottish constitutional tools – unless the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems believe that they have overreached themselves, but, as Daisy has said, there is a movement in the Lords to bring forward a new Treaty of Union that is intended to isolate Scotland and cut off Scotland from every avenue of escape. It is hard to believe, but those promulgating this idea are Scots and lawyers. Well, maybe not too hard to believe, the b******s.
Wow-4 new articles since I last visited the site-I have been away for a wee holiday. Came back early as too hot for me.
Looks like Rev Stu has decided to get back on the horse. Well done.
As I am not a masochist by nature, I avoided wading through the comments posted in the knowledge that at least three quarters of them will be the same crap that is posted, by the usual suspects, on every EVERY article, irrespective of the subject matter.
The Tory Party now in complete disarray, as it has been since Bunter took charge, but it is now totally obvious to even the casual onlooker. What an opportunity for all the opposition parties to make hay but, will they?
First port of call should be a vote of ‘no confidence’ in Bunter. This should sail through. Then a General Election shortly thereafter. The only problem with this is that the Tory’s know they will be booted out, therefore will try and prevent.
As events unfold, all the Political Parties are currently unsure of how to proceed. What bold plan will Sturgeon have up her sleeve? Probably none I fear.
Independence is dead in the water with Sturgeon and the SNP at the helm. Events are racing ahead of Sturgeon’s ‘plan’. which is already doomed to fail. If/when a General Election is held it would be advantageous if the SNP got a good kicking which would be the catalyst for removing Sturgeon. This has to be the starting point for the Independence movement in Scotland. Confidence is low however.
We are in for a long haul. 10 years minimum.
There will be no early election. A new leader will take over (as per May) and the Tories will continue with the same large majority.
Yup!
Sturgeon & SNPs *forever chasing bubbles* routine Part 3
1. Umm – I’m just new here & it’s no a bad gig & the scenery is nice & I’ve not had a shag yet! Let’s keep making the case guys!
2. A new leader of Tory/Labour/Rainbow will be along soon – haud yer wheesht! Stop fretting. They’ll take the knee & pay homage to Scotlands right to break the Union & they’ll part like the red sea to hand deliver Lizzie’s Royal seal of approval that fucks up her kingdom.
Go back to sleep, don’t worry yer pretty little heads – we’ve got this covered.
*Whit if they say Naw?!
We *still need to whine..oops! Make the case & convince them the error of their ways* Vote for us!
Okey-dokey well go back to munching on Daisey chains. You show ’em!
Ottomanboi says:
6 July, 2022 at 10:10 am
So the «ComiCap» locomotive of the world economy is on the same tracks as the rest, headed for destination Slump.
Is this the end of capitalism, globalism, interdependence?
An independent Scotland is going to hit turbulence. Is it really prepared for a Jupiter like bumpy ride? Does anyone have an alternative idea, let alone a plan?
Depends how we go about it; if we produce according to demand, we’ll be fine. If we follow the current demand for growth (i.e. profit for shareholders), we put ourselves at risk of collapse from over-reaching.
There’s a whole load of conversations to be had about farming, manufacturing, food miles (and anything else miles) with regard to global warming and global capitalism as it currently exists.
Ian Brotherhood says:
6 July, 2022 at 11:16 am
This is, at least in part, what I was on about to Ellis a couple of weeks back, after the AUOB Stirling march. (I couldn’t be explicit because of the ‘ban’ on certain topics.)
Mixed messages from the AUOB gathering.
For a start, the ‘TORIES OUT’ or ‘FUCK THE TORIES” or whatever-it-was banner. That phrase is as old as me, and that’s quite old. There’s nothing original, clever or interesting about it and as a statement of the bleedin obvious it would be hard to beat.
The trouble with marches is you are guaranteed to attract the Student Grant from Viz types thinking they’re being edgy.
You will also attract the Socialist Workers Party with whatever alias of convenience it’s masquerading under.
(ie. Stand Up To Racism/Unite Against Fascism – the latter is more the brownshirt division for the former, Stop The War Coalition, Unite the Resistance, Trade Union & Socialist Coalition – its main role appears to be giving the Official Monster Raving Loony Party a candidate to humiliate at elections).
The SWP is essentially run along the lines of a pyramid marketing scheme, in a constant state of raising money to pass on to HQ after taking their “cut”. This includes running up adhoc “support groups” to parachute into any dispute or sizeable cause in the hope of milking the gullible out of their loose change. This tends to make them very pushy and also very aggressive when challenged – they have no qualms about wrecking someone else’s march or meeting if they see it as financial “competition”.
Secondly, the flying of blue/yellow flags representing another nation. At an AUOB march? Why? Is the suggestion that we would all welcome those people under ‘our’ banner. (News – many of us would not.)
This is done to court public popularity – look everyone, we like the things you like too! Had it been in June, doubtless there would have been rainbow flags and trans flags aplenty.
Third – People festooned in flags, Scotland sports gear, encrustulated from head to toe in badges and with painted heads and pets is not appropriate. It’s not a fuckin party. The atmosphere in 2014 was completely different because we believed we were close to making history. For the same reason, the singing and roaring has to stop because it’s half-hearted and just not loud enough to be impressive. A silent sombre procession of people dressed entirely in black, led by the pipe band playing a dirge, would have more impact.
I can see where you are coming from, but when you consider the other sort of marchers you get up here with their clearly fascistic overtones (ie. the Orange Order and the Heinz 57 Varieties of
Celtic season ticket ultra morons“Irish” Republicans) you can understand the need to make it appear less threatening and more something you want to join in – its the same thoughtline as having “family sections” in football grounds to offset the machismo tendencies from the Reflected Glory tossers. The SNP’s own marches with saltires and pipers have always drawn a mixed reception.Dogs are always a good idea at marches, so long as it is of the varieties the public like and not those Shark On A Lead ones beloved by scheme goblins. Siberian Huskies are always a winner, people always lose their s**t over them due to the eyes and they are very “My adoring public!” with crowds.
Add to that some recent confusion over whether or certain independence-supporting groups are not prepared to share a platform with anyone who is, in their view, a ‘TERF’, and we have a mess on our hands – this is not a cohesive movement. Less of a smorgasbord, more of a dog’s dinner.
It’s a mess because of the inherent selfishness of those proffering themselves as an alternative. Some of them are primarily interested in revenge more than they are in Scotland in any shape or form, let alone independence – and by the way, for the record I’d say Alex Salmond is actually far less guilty of this than certain others I could mention whose motivations are more to do with butthurt from being flung off the gravy train.
The current carry on at Holyrood and Westminster should be the golden moment for these factions to grow up and agree to disagree for the common cause, unite and create a workable strategy. But they won’t. The worst of it is that Sturgeon and her troughers know it. These squabbling array of poundshop Bravehearts may not be quite at the Sean Clerkin and Peter Dow levels of cosplay superhero delusionment, but by thunder at times they’re working hard to achieve it!
Chas: I doubt that we have ten years. The short haul is the only answer, and that will require direct confrontation with Westminster. Sometimes, occasionally, it pays to read the comments. The SNP will not do it – not under Nicola Sturgeon. The ‘wokie’ cohort behind her would simply select someone who is even more entrenched in other matters than she is. These are the b******s who have been blocking independence initiatives, who were probably behind the Salmond debacle and much more. Every public institution – and many private ones – are in Stonewall’s pocket. Its tentacles spread widely. Stonewall and the hard left moved into Scotland when they saw the opportunity to infiltrate and capture the SNP, the ruling party of government. Many, including the Rev, saw it coming. Too many did not and have totally underestimated these people. They will not go quietly. So, let them go kicking and screaming. Go, they must, if independence is ever to be brought in by the SNP – which, of course, brings us full circle.
The decision of the Durham police investigation into Starmer may have a critical effect on the timing of the next General Election.
Lorna re HoL new Act of Union.
Sturgeon was warned about that years ago. Concerns were met with what I now know as Sturgeons pack dogs..
I.e. shut it, yer talking pish, your ruining independence for me & stop sowing discontent within the movement. They can’t do that without all four Nations agreement. You’re stupid!
Oh aye! Like they did with Brexshit? They’d either vote it through on their own or vote it through HoC where 3 Nations didn’t have the seating arrangements.
Result? A day in the can fae Twitter LOL!
SNP are deid. I dunno whit revived them last year. I’ve said before maybe a stint with the yoons in charge isn’t such a bad idea. Let No voters live the dream & see how fast it dawns on them they’d have to live with their toxic policies.
It kind of gave the game away the other night when days after the great announcement, there was a party political broadcast by the SNP that did not mention independence once
& that would also bring an abrupt end to Stonewall in the process.
Didn’t the BBC & Tories drop them like a hot brick?
SNPs out. Stonewalls out. Win. Win.
& The sane amongst us can regroup & reset fae ground zero?
Hopefully with no nationalist in its title.
Ian..re indy rallies.
They’re family orientated for a day out. Bring yer dugs & weans – it’s safe & approachable. AUOB is a broadchurch with all sorts. My idea of what I find distasteful inst someone else’s & it doesn’t take long for the infighting of who won’t share a stage with who starts. They need maybe to feck off then & have their own individual rally? They’ve failed to read the memo or understand what ‘All’ means lol
Folks do love dugs! Even those not on the march. When we were forced to go round council schemes in Stirling, on a hot day, the pavements had doggy pit stops along the route provided by the homeowners. Drinking dishes, paddling pools to cool their paws & treats & toys LOL only thing missing was a sofa to take a nap!
Ki
Going back to what I found distasteful was Sturgeons sole attempt thinking that Gawd awful Godley & her coil jokes & the Nationals deliberate attempt at playing sound system was a good idea while the world & all it’s media was watching.
I suggest she never has another one!
At 0:27
“No, it’s not. We set out that our priority is an independence referendum. We set out our timetable on how to achieve that”
Right. So the timetable is “to achieve” an independence referendum, not “to deliver it”? After EIGHT effing years of planning, is that all what this guy has to say? And he thinks it is acceptable?
0:33
“But, but, I could just be nakedly political and enjoy what is going on within the UK government right now”
How dare you? Enjoy what is going on? Families in Scotland are struggling to put food on their table, they are struggling with the crippling increases in food prices thanks to the stupid brexit we never asked for nor gave consent to and that your party did Fuck all to avoid for Scotland, despite countless mandates to put us on another path. We are struggling with the energy costs, and this idiot dares to say he just wants to sit back “and enjoy”? What kind of self-entitled heartless monster says such a thing when the people of Scotland sent them TO STOP this situation by taking us out of the union and not to sit back and enjoy while we suffer? What on earth have this people been using their time in Westminster for?
0:38
“This is actually strengthening our case that Westminster does not work”
Actually no. What this is doing is strengthening the case that Sturgeon and the SNP do not work at all for Scotland and haven’t done in 8 years. The worse tory government in UK’s history and the loser in control of the SNP hasn’t even been able to secure an effing referendum, never mind independence. Instead she has lost us powers, assets, rights and lots of precious time.
“that Scotland could do better”
You got that right. Scotland would have done far better if Mr Salmond remained as the SNP leader in 2014instead of passing the baton to the complete loser who has been in charge of the SNP and Scotland’s government ever since. This must be a record. A so called pro-independence leader in power for 8 years, with continuous control of pro independence majorities in Holyrood and absolute majorities at Westminster and all she has managed to do is losing us powers, assets and revert Scotland’s autonomy.
Now, and after 8 years of non-achievements and serious loses, we hear this pompous hot-air balloon saying that substituting an England PM for another is far more important that ending the union. If Sturgeon’s SNP is not the biggest con act Scotland has ever seen, hell, what is.
It seems that what Mr Smith is waiting for Westminster to auto-combust before his right rear cheek asks the left if it is time to remove themselves from the green seat.
When you hear this guy the impression you get is, besides of loving the sound of his own voice, that he has his feet under the Westminster table and represents a party that does no longer give a shit about Scotland, never mind independence. They are now fully concentrated in Westminster politics all he has to say about Scotland are pure soundbites and platitudes. A so called pro-independence MP and more than half of the clip was about moving the PM position from an England MP to another. You have to hear it to believe it.
Who among the yes movement gives a sht if the PM is Johnson or any other tory? Our concern is not what PM the UK has but that the UK still remains intact with Scotland trapped on it and that England continues to to foist absolute rule over Scotland by MPs and governments we never elect.
The idea that this guy is ever going to “up the stakes and settle up than down” is a myth.
The referendum will be a con. The plebiscite is a con. These people have no intention whatsoever for Scotland to exit this union, the are far too interested and concerned about Westminster’s politics to give Scotland a second thought.
Chas says:
6 July, 2022 at 11:49 am
As I am not a masochist by nature, I avoided wading through the comments posted in the knowledge that at least three quarters of them will be the same crap that is posted, by the usual suspects, on every EVERY article, irrespective of the subject matter.
Ding! Ding! Multiple personal attacks!
Would Chas need the Rev to send him a personal email in order to make him aware of the latest rules?
Is there any point in replying to someone who doesn’t read the comments?
If Boris fell, shouldn’t Sturgeon be pushing for a general election and stating that she would campaign on the basis that it was a plebiscite in Scotland for independence?
-or maybe it’s too soon for her nefarious plan ……….
(not that I want a Sturgeon regime winning independence for us and casting us into Sturgeonist slavery for ever more)
I find it very revealing that even the nasty Tories know when enough is enough, well some of them do, and begin to resign over the machinations of their leader, yet with Sturgeon and the SNP government in mind, along with their MPs none of them has the decency nor credibility to call our Sturgeon’s machinations let alone even contemplate resigning. what does that say about SNP MSPS and MPs.
Mark Boyle says:
Shark On A Lead ones beloved by scheme goblins.
I have a great deal of difficulty with this sort of language/attitude.
We can’t go patting ourselves on the back because of lack of racism when there is so much class discrimination going on.
Would this sort of language be classed in law as racism? I know people who live in a scheme are not all a different race but then neither are the English.
Craig Murray sums up what some of us already suspected.
“Nicola Sturgeon selected the Lord Advocate last year for her views on gender issues and willingness to support the abolition of juries in sexual assault trials.
Bain was never going to work for Independence. She is plainly signaling the Supreme Court to rule again the referendum.”
Republicofscotland says:
6 July, 2022 at 2:31 pm
I find it very revealing that even the nasty Tories know when enough is enough, well some of them do, and begin to resign over the machinations of their leader, yet with Sturgeon and the SNP government in mind, along with their MPs none of them has the decency nor credibility to call our Sturgeon’s machinations let alone even contemplate resigning. what does that say about SNP MSPS and MPs.
That is a very good point ROS.
Even the so called ‘good guys’ like Joanna Cherry & Angus Brendan MacNeil are still members of the SNP and are saying nothing.
Did we ever find out who leaked the recording of Ian Blackford?
Whoever they are they could perhaps hang on to their ‘good guy’ badge.
Re my 2.35pm comment Craig Murray added.
“A different Lord Advocate would certify that the Scottish Parlament has a right to pass the bill. It would then be for the UK government to take it to the SC, trying to overcome the Scottish Parliament, the Lord Advocate and possibly the Court of Session.
Different ball game.”
And we thought things might be a tad better with Wolffe out the picture, no chance.
Stu Thanks for the information.
I have to say, this is not such an eye opener for me, this is just confirmed what I thought.
But excellent eye opener for those whom tried convincing us to only follow one plan, believed in the snp plebiscite next GE is the way forward.
With a new illegal treaty of the union in the offing which is being between westminster and westminsters branch office in Scotland. It is akin to having a new treaty with themselves,
and with out consulting the sovereign Scots,
Whom may I remind everyone Scots were not included in the 1st treaty,
It seems Westminster want a 2nd New Pseudo treaty with out the Sovereign Scots.
Well if were not invited to the union for a second time, were not definately not in it.
The devolved government are not Sovereign in Scotland.
It is time for leave
Republicofscotland says:
6 July, 2022 at 2:35 pm
Craig Murray sums up what some of us already suspected.
“Nicola Sturgeon selected the Lord Advocate last year for her views on gender issues and willingness to support the abolition of juries in sexual assault trials.
Is that not something Craig Murray would highly approve of?
If a snap general election is called?
Another possible choice for the Scottish government? From James Kelly scotgoespop:
Indicate that they [the Scottish government] will instead engineer an early Holyrood election to ensure a plebiscite election in 2024. Before the usual suspects turn up with the usual refrain “they can’t do that without a supermajority”, it would actually be pretty easy – if the Scottish Government resign, there would be no viable alternative government without the participation of the Greens, so an early election would inevitably follow. Again, this would be against Nicola Sturgeon’s ultra-cautious instincts, though.
When I say time to Leave, that is metaphorical for,
I mean time to wake up and see the manipulation of wordsmithing by Westminster when it applies to a Pseudo 1707 treaty with the Scots.
Doug says:
6 July, 2022 at 2:42 pm
If a snap general election is called?
Another possible choice for the Scottish government? From James Kelly scotgoespop:
Is James Kelly a member of the Sturgeon cult?
Why is he spending his time thinking of ways to get Sturgeon off the hook?
And the snp thought they could once again take us up the wooden hill to re-arrange the furniture in the same old back bedroom.
A new treaty of the union?
Because the old one does not tie or bind us to England’s old parliament system securely enough.
Perhaps the labourite snp will suggest a federation.
Where Scots will still be under a master instead of a clean walk away for Scotland, Wales and Ireland,
The Anglo- saxon government of old still resides in Britain even if England’s people have changed.
It is about time the people of England called for their independence from the westmonster elitist bubble.
IanB,
Yes, anti Tory slogans have been popular in Scotland for quite some time.
Tory scum out! If I remember correctly was a banner being held in one of the AUOB marches, my own personal opinion is that there’s a time and a place for that and it’s not at an All Under One Banner march.
It’s exclusionary. Which Tories are we talking about anyway, the blue Tories, the red Tories, the yellow Tories, the tartan Tories? It doesn’t make sense to me.
There’s not a blind bit of difference between Sir Keir Starmer’s Labour Party and Boris Johnson’s Conservative Party. I’d find it very difficult for somebody to argue that they New Labour aren’t more right wing than Thatchers government.
If we see fit for AUOB to be exclusionary, the next thing is they will be deciding who is a divisive figure and who isn’t, who can speak at the UOB rallies and who can’t. Are we there yet?
It’s the thin end of the wedge but I suppose it goes to show there is not one thing we can’t fuck up.
Flags of Wales and Catalonia because of the similarities of our position are to be expected at independence marches but I don’t know why country 404’s flags would be there except people do love a bandwagon.
It would be hard to to try Alyn Smith and NS snp in court under Scots Law for treason and a ("Tractor" - Ed) to the Scots,
Because westminster broke the treaty of the union in 1708 when they abolished the Scots law of treason.
However What can Sovereign Scots do when they find their representatives are acting against their interests,?
And here comes Gove. SC says “LOL”, LA says “ano!”. Gove leads Tories, Roberston installed as Nicola realises it is time to pass the baton, new blood, covid toll, blah blah and the NewSNP circus moves into its next decade.
Breastplate.
There is not a blind bit of difference between Keir Starmerx labour Party and Boris Johnson’s Conservative Party and the SNP party,
Just thought I would help complete the sentence for you.
Ruby @ 2:53, James Kelly (Scot Goes Pop, not the other one) is a member of the Alba Party NEC. That hardly qualifies him as a member of the Sturgeon Cult. What he has worked out, though, is that independence is more easily delivered when the SNP can credibly lead the campaign. Without that, we diminish our chances. A lot of people will not listen to Alex Salmond and a goodly chunk dislike him intensely. We need the SNP to to help secure independence. When that is achieved, we can turf them from power because their other policies are of no relevance to the people of Scotland.
Skip, that’s all great but the SNP is totally useless. Back to the drawing board for you.
Great how we are all just spectators with regards to Boris, etc. And again, the reason we don’t have any dog in the race is down to Sturgeon.
So enjoy the show, everybody. That little bit of theatre is all you are a getting out of politics until Sturgeon goes. You’re a spectator, nothing more.
Hatuey
are you saying we are a victim by choice, because we are not acting sovereign.
If you are then i agree with you.
Hatuey,
It don’t think Sturgeon will be ousted by the SNP, if she goes, I’m guessing she’ll go on her own terms and hand the crown to somebody else knowing full well that HMS SNP will steam along on the same course.
Same as Bojo, what difference will it make to us whether it’s him, Rees-Mogg, Starmer or anyone else for that matter?
Ruby 2.41pm
I doubt Craig Murray would approve of abolishing juries, I also doubt like many folk Murray would push one section of societies gender issues above another’s, though he has taken a bit of flak on it the last time he mentioned it.
Hatuey, if the SNP turns out to be totally useless at the 2024 Westminster election, it is incumbent upon the Scottish electorate to replace them with a party that will inspire the independence movement. Remember, this is politics. Hence, we need the SNP name to help deliver independence. If they screw up in 2024, they will get no more benefit of the doubt (look south to see how that is going for someone who doesn’t own a comb).
For the avoidance of doubt, I am an Alba member (international branch) and joined on the day it was announced. I became suspicious of Nicola Sturgeon shortly after she became FM. She used phrases like “Any government I lead….” Compare that with Alex Salmond, who talked of “The Scottish Government….” I wish she were not FM. Heck, I wish we had won in 2014, but we are where we are.
The full list so far of those who have resigned due to Boris Johnson.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fpolitics%2F20259751.tory-resignations-boris-johnsons-government-far%2F
Skip, your argument will make just as much sense in 2024 as it does today. And there will be a chorus of people saying it.
Now I don’t don’t believe in criticising without offering alternative solutions. But the alternative is clear to me; Sturgeon needs to go.
And that’s just about the only constructive thing any rational Scottish independence supporting person could say right now. Even if we somehow achieved a referendum, she would lose it.
Sturgeon is deeply compromised and deeply unpopular, even in the eyes of many who should be on the side of the SNP. Anyone who suggests we need to get behind her or the SNP whilst she remains, on the basis that she’s finally decided to fight for independence, must be a gullible fool with a very short memory.
I simply don’t buy the ‘hold their feet to the fire’ argument that people are hiding behind right now. The feet in question, as with the brass necks, couldn’t be burnt with a blow torch.
Support for independence should be at 60%+ right now. That it isn’t is squarely down to Sturgeon, her bizarre priorities with regards to things like gender, and her dishonesty which most semi-intelligent people see right through today.
The only reason she has hung on is down to BBC Scotland covering for her, corruption, and the lack of any serious alternative being offered.
It’s a dire situation we are in. But I can handle dire. We are accustomed to dire. What I refuse to resort to is delusion and the situation we are in is not improved by people who should know better telling us to get behind Sturgeon’s latest deception on independence.
Breastplate, it isn’t obvious to me that whoever replaces Sturgeon will be just as bad. Certainly I can’t imagine them being any worse.
I’m hearing similar arguments you’re making regarding Sturgeon being made in regards to Boris. Is that where we are today?
Continuing to watch the Westminster Liaison Committee meeting which is live on SKY just now.
Johnson is being ripped apart like a piece of raw meat. Exposed as a rotten corrupt and floundering clown one wonders how much longer this utter fiasco can go on.
Time for an election whereby Scotland can mandate for its freedom.
The Lord Advocate’s reference to the Supreme Court at paragraph i9 states’.. the legal effect of a referendum held pursuant to the Bill would be nil’.
The Judges will no doubt be delighted to spend their time considering what amounts to a request(in which the Lord Advocate does not have confidence) to authorise an Act of the Scottish Parliament which as a matter of law achieves absolutely nothing.
It’s priceless. I want a ringside seat in the court on the day the case is heard.
Johnson thinks there is an alcohol problem in Parliament. Thinks to there is a crisis with standards of behaviour.
Never a truer word said. He’s certainly on the money with these comments.
FFS and at 4.52 the liar in chief is declaring that he’s in for the long haul. Best investment for a hundred years he says. What must the world think about what the UK has as a prime Minister.
Hatuey,
Maybe I’m wrong and getting rid of Sturgeon is a game changer, I have my doubts.
You are right that it can’t be any worse.
Republicofscotland says:
6 July, 2022 at 4:04 pm
Ruby 2.41pm
I doubt Craig Murray would approve of abolishing juries, I also doubt like many folk Murray would push one section of societies gender issues above another’s, though he has taken a bit of flak on it the last time he mentioned it.
He got banned from speaking by AUOB for some reason.
He did a bit more than just mention gender issues
” It’s a dire situation we are in. But I can handle dire. We are accustomed to dire. What I refuse to resort to is delusion and the situation we are in is not improved by people who should know better telling us to get behind Sturgeon’s latest deception on independence.”
Seconded .
Even in the unlikely event of Road To Damascus style conversion , Sturgeon is tainted goods , a walking Trades Description infringement and will NEVER lead Scotland to Independence and the longer she stays in situ the further we’ll get from our goal
Sturgeon has had her response from BJ regarding a request for a Section 30, he stated he couldn’t agree because the time is not the time for a referendum. So Sturgeon only has two options left.
Joey Jones on BBC with his take on Boris’s woes, suggesting that the gulf between Johnson’s self-image and the reality hurtling towards him is too great for him to process.
It may not be possible for him to deliver a dignified resignation, even if that is the only course left to him.
Does that potted analysis remind you of anyone?
Now we know the fat, lazy, pig-ignorant, English Tory lying corrupt prime minister is going soon. It seems likely their will be a general election, sooner than later. It will be interesting to see if the SNP run with it being for indy, or if we shall just see more ‘better for Scotland’ pish.
Going by Alyn Smith’s comments, it seems the SNP don’t want an election at all. In addition, it might be ‘fun’ for the likes of Alyn Smith on his 85k salary plus expenses and subsidised food/drink, to have Tories in power, but it is NO FUN at all for the millions of folk in Scotland suffering every single day under English Tory colonial rule.
A party desperate for independence, would literally jump at this chance. It is odd then, that the SNP seem so reluctant.
For me it’s not just Sturgeon who is comprised it’s the entire SNP
(all except the guy who leaked the video of Ian Blackford)
Will getting rid of Sturgeon change anything?
Will any of them ever dare to criticise the leader whoever it might be?
Will any of them do a Ruth Davidson? Say what you like about the Tories at least they have the balls to speak out about the leader.
I think it might be time for us to get on with the job without the bloody politicians.
If you want rid of Sturgeon spending your time thinking up ways of getting her off the hook is definitely not a good idea nor is writing post after post about how great her ‘de facto referendum’ idea is.
All we need Sturgeon to do is get us a Section 30 as she promised in the last election.
If she can’t do that then we must demand that she stand down.
That’s my idea. Anyone else got any idea how to get rid of her?
100%Yes says:
6 July, 2022 at 5:37 pm
Sturgeon has had her response from BJ regarding a request for a Section 30, he stated he couldn’t agree because the time is not the time for a referendum. So Sturgeon only has two options left.
Has she actually written to Boris Johnson to request a section 30?
Hmm. Nadine Dorries has just gone in to No 10. Is she part of the delegation? If so, surely the Rumpled One must know he cannot continue.
the similarities between Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon are quite uncanny.
Johnson is quite frankly gone. His party has turned on him and turned utterly. Sturgeon should take this as the gypsy’s warning because it is not too difficult to see a similar situation manifest itself this side of the border.
So, will Jonson be gone, will there be a general election, will Sturgeon be disposed. The wind of change may be all around.
@Mark Boyle 12.23 pm
The current carry on at Holyrood and Westminster should be the golden moment for these factions to grow up and agree to disagree for the common cause, unite and create a workable strategy. But they won’t. The worst of it is that Sturgeon and her troughers know it. These squabbling array of poundshop Bravehearts may not be quite at the Sean Clerkin and Peter Dow levels of cosplay superhero delusionment, but by thunder at times they’re working hard to achieve it!
You’re right of course. By the same token, the “A” in AUOB seems to pass some people by. I’ve never quite been able to understand why. The indyref1 big tent hasn’t just collapsed, the wreckage has been set alight and then pissed on. I’m not sure if there’s a way back from that whether for indyref2 or plebiscitary elections. That might be a drawback, or it might just be the new normal.
I see and hear people advocating unity and co-operation, then telling us it doesn’t include certain groups, whether it’s the SNP and Greens trying to exclude Alba and gender critical people, or people saying certain groups aren’t welcome in under a supposedly “ALL Under One Banner” banner.
Perhaps if a plebiscitary elections comes to pass (I’m beginning to have my doubts, sadly….) it won’t really matter. The logic of a 50%+1 vote mandate doesn’t necessarily presuppose all those voting pro-indy have to co-operate or even like each other. I heartily loathe quite a number of individuals who I’m sure are on the same side as me on the issue of independence.
“… SNPs out. Stonewalls out. Win. Win… ” – Geri
Have been saying that for a number of years now. The ‘wokies’ banded together with the foot-draggers (sometimes, the same people) and that is precisely why independence was put on the back burner. By early 2015, the SNP was infiltrated. Brexit 2016 and all the excrement about being taken out against our will. Never happened. The ‘trans’ movement is a parasitical piggy-backer and, if the SNP fell, they would move elsewhere – but that elsewhere would have to have access to power. Being a woman, I detest their delusionary nihilism; being an independence supporter, I detest their sleekit infiltrations of the institutions of Scotland. The Scottish independence movement/SNP are nothing more than a vehicle for these people. They have crippled it.
@Hatuey 4.41 pm
What I refuse to resort to is delusion and the situation we are in is not improved by people who should know better telling us to get behind Sturgeon’s latest deception on independence.
I was taken aback at the alacrity with which folk like Craig Murray and James Kelly jumped aboard the Unity charabanc too. In the end, I don’t think it matters whether Sturgeon stays or goes: there’s nobody else any better in her party, or at least nobody that those who will still be pulling the strings would allow to take her place.
Joanna Cherry had a chance to make an impact by leading a sizeable chunk of support over to Alba, or trying to change the SNP from within. It seems she’s given up on the latter, so we have to accept that the SNP is what it is for the foreseeable future. The rank and file have neither the guts or the power to effect real change.
Those of us not prepared to be press ganged in to the Unity movement will just have to wait and see if that plebiscitary election will work.
@ Ruby As far as I’m aware yes she did and she also asked in Jan 2020 and the reply was now not the time.
Andy Ellis @ 6.15.
Sturgeon has poisoned the next election by:
1 Making the Lord Advocate go to the Supreme Court, which will ( if they agree to hear the case at all ) confirm that the proposed (or another other type of) referendum on independence is illegal.
2. Referring to the election as a ‘de facto referendum’, showing that she does not accept the court’s decision.
In any event, the Scottish Government’s position on their own Bill, as set out in the referral to the Supreme Court, is that the legal effect of a referendum held pursuant to the Bill would be nil. ( See para 19 ).
Logically the same would apply to a ‘de facto’ referendum. So it’s all pretty meaningless.
But I don’t think pretending an election is a referendum will pass muster in any event, whatever the question is.
I wish I had an answer to put forward to solve the problem. I have spent many hours pondering the problem. The only conclusions I have come to are that this is just a plan to keep the SNP in power for years, and that independence will never be achieved under Sturgeon and the present SNP bunch.
It turns out she wrote to Boris on 28th June and she got a reply today to say ‘now is not the time’.
What does she do now? Does she just say OK Boris and then just keep repeating Tories are bastards?
Should she not be going on hunger strike or something?
@Hatuey 4 41pm
I would agree that Scottish Broadcasting Media and not exclusively BBC Scotland have kept the First Minister in office. They have left every stone ‘unturned’ when it comes to the evidence that should have deserved greater scrutiny. Most of which was detailed here. Most recently for example almost identical circumstances for Pincher and Grady. Anybody resigning over Grady?. I don’t think the latest maneuvering re last weeks announcement is a genuine attempt at Independence. Rather getting over 50 SNP MPs was the objective in 2024. Sturgeons announcement has not aged well. It is up in the air now and Sturgeon needs to go to capitalised on the uncertainty.
Merganser says:
The only conclusions I have come to are that this is just a plan to keep the SNP in power for years,
In the latest National article it states:
https://archive.ph/VWuMU
Sturgeon has already referred the matter of whether Holyrood can legally legislate on indyref2 to the Supreme Court. If the court rules that the Scottish Parliament cannot do so, she intends to use the next General Election as a de-facto referendum, with a majority of votes for the SNP providing a mandate.
https://tinyurl.com/bddedt24
That’s a better link for the National article unless you are interested in
‘New socks to turn back the
clock on their aging, aching feet.’
@Merganser 6.58 pm
I don’t agree WRT a “de facto” plebiscitary election not having any legal effect. Why do you think so? If the SC finds against the SG as most of us think it will, then at least we’ll have the legal certainty many of us have been arguing should have been secured year ago.
If we get to 2024 for the next GE, it’s up to the movement to make it work as a plebiscite. Sturgeon has said the SNP will do so, but like lots of others I don’t trust them to keep their word, or to “play nice” even if a plebiscitary election happens. I’m not sure a “Yes Alliance” is on the cards or that I could stomach campaigning with the SNP and Greens even if it was.
Ruby @ 7.09
Could I ask you to read my earlier post again please It addresses the referral and the election. The National article is just confirmation that Boris has refused a s.30 – no surprise there.
Thanks.
Ruby,
Exactly as we feared.
Only votes for SNP count.
Ffs.
Andy Ellis @ 7.28
If the Scottish Government state in terms that their proposed referendum will have no legal effect, how can a de facto referendum ( which it can’t be in any event, because it’s an election, which is a completely different thing) be any different?
@Merganser 7.45 pm
I’m not following your reasoning. If the Supreme Court rules against “us”, then the next GE is treated as a plebiscite. It’s an alternative to a referendum which the britnats are frustrating.
We know they’re different things, but just because it may be accepted that there’s no point holding a “non-agreed” referendum that would have no effect, doesn’t mean that a plebiscitary election won’t have effect or be accepted.
50% + 1 for pro-indy parties is all it takes. Folk need to squash the “it’s only SNP votes that count” BS pronto: it’s the votes of ALL pro-indy parties together.
Merganser says:
6 July, 2022 at 7:30 pm
Ruby @ 7.09
Could I ask you to read my earlier post again please It addresses the referral and the election. The National article is just confirmation that Boris has refused a s.30 – no surprise there.
Thanks.
I’ll do that!
Sorry for any confusion.
The National article is a confirmation that Boris has refused but it also states
she intends to use the next General Election as a de-facto referendum, with a majority of votes for the SNP providing a mandate.
which I thought confirmed your opinion that the intention is to keep the SNP in power
Ruby 5.20pm.
I don’t agree with everything Murray says and not on the trans issues, yeah the AUOB did ban him a mistake I think, as Murray is 100% indy minded and he’s spoken at many indy events around Scotland, and from what I can gather he’s well respected by the indy movement
50% + 1 for pro-indy parties is all it takes. Folk need to squash the “it’s only SNP votes that count” BS pronto: it’s the votes of ALL pro-indy parties together.
How do we do that? If it’s the SNP mandate are they not able to dictate the terms?
Republicofscotland says:
6 July, 2022 at 8:23 pm
Ruby 5.20pm.
I don’t agree with everything Murray says and not on the trans issues, yeah the AUOB did ban him a mistake I think, as Murray is 100% indy minded and he’s spoken at many indy events around Scotland, and from what I can gather he’s well respected by the indy movement
I believe it was Murray who made the mistake. But hey we won’t fall out about it. It could be we just have different perspectives due to gender. On the subject of these speeches being made around Scotland do you think for the most part they are preaching to the converted and it’s all just a nice evening out for independence supporters a bit similar to the AUOB marches?
I found it very interesting that the media has been portraying the Civil Service as a department that is honourable, credible and upset a with Johnson’s actions.
Well, the Civil Service is none of those things in my mind, many of the Civil Servants in 2014 acted against Scottish independence even though they were meant to be neutral, and the ex-head of the Civil Service Sir Nicholas MacPherson admitted that he was biased against Scottish independence in 2014, incidentally MacPherson now works for Sturgeon, make of that what you will.
More recently the Scottish taxpayer shelled out at least 55K for coaching lesson for Civil Servants among others on how to answer question at the Inquiry surrounding the fit up of Alex Salmond, the now ex-head of the Civil Service in Scotland Leslie Evans wouldn’t even appear in person to answer questions.
If by some miracle there is an indyref next year, again the Civil Service will actively undermine Scottish independence.
Ruby
Thank you for your response. I agree that the way the SNP are going about things is designed purely to keep the SNP in power. I see where you are coming from now. Sorry I didn’t spot it before. My mistake.
“On the subject of these speeches being made around Scotland do you think for the most part they are preaching to the converted and it’s all just a nice evening out for independence supporters a bit similar to the AUOB marches?”
I don’t know Ruby, maybe its about trying to bring some cohesion and belief back to the indy masses, as for preaching to the converted yes probably, however I’d like to think that some Doubting Thomas’s attending the speeches will come away thinking that they’ll now vote yes.
Merganser says:
6 July, 2022 at 8:37 pm
Ruby
Thank you for your response. I agree that the way the SNP are going about things is designed purely to keep the SNP in power. I see where you are coming from now. Sorry I didn’t spot it before. My mistake.
No worries! It’ll take half the blame. It probably didn’t help that I was wittering on about ‘socks for old tired feet’
That was all about all the ads you get with the ‘National’ when you use archive.is. So many ads it’s impossible to read the article hence reason for 2nd link.
It wouldn’t actually matter who the English Prime Minister is if we were independent other than keeping on good terms with our closest neighbour. The reason it is important to the SNP is because it allows them to distract from their inability to deliver independence by pinning the blame on someone else and creating a bogeyman. They are effectively saying, “Don’t look at how bad we are, look at how bad they (the Tories) are.”
“…with a majority of votes for the SNP providing a mandate.”
No surprise there then. The only surprise is that anyone thought otherwise. I said in a previous comment that Sturgeon would freeze out the other pro-independence parties. Her modus operandi should be obvious by now – entice and delay on an infinite loop.
We are heading for a rebellion, the parameters and the situation is becoming intolerable.The British state have just refused another section 30 . We can’t continue like this the British state is a colonial power and Scotland is its possession. W are going to be forced into violence as our only route, it’s tragic but I see no other way forward. If we can’t have democracy, then the British can’t have peace.
Andy Ellis @ 8.19
‘It’s an alternative to a referendum’
Not an alternative. It’s another bite at the same cherry. A referendum. Which the court will already have determined as beyond the power of the Scottish Government before the election takes place. The veneer of it being an election will not be accepted as legal. And Sturgeon has said that she will only proceed with something that is legal.
So whatever the result of the ‘de facto’ referendum ( called an election } she wins another term in office and independence is not advanced one step.
If I didn’t dislike her (mild version) so much I would pay her a complement for her ingenuity. Alternatively, it may not be down to her, and she is just following instructions.
It enables her to say she has tried everything
The SNP are conning us all, they have no interest in independence,they are only interested in their power and easy money as MP,s and MSPs. The real work of winning independence is a smoke screen for more years of, maybe tomorrow.
@Melvin 9.00pm
Dangerous talk. I’m not sure how many will follow you to the barricades.
The last march wasn’t exactly La Diada was it? And if you think the leaders of the movement are going to go to jail like their Catalan counterparts – still less start advocating for the armalite and the ballot box – I think you may be sorely disappointed.
@Merganser 9.07 pm
I’ve no idea who you think would be declaring a plebiscitary election illegal, or how that would work, but I’m not going to get in to a rammie about it.
If you’re determined that a referendum and a plebiscitary election are the same thing it’s not worth trying to convince you otherwise.
The last march wasn’t exactly La Diada was it?
What does that prove?
Andy Ellis says:
6 July, 2022 at 9:14 pm
The last march wasn’t exactly La Diada was it?
Yeah, more like La Di Da, as in the infamously shit Sad Cafe album.
Come to think of it, what an apt metaphor, they were also a bunch that spent over a decade trading off their one only year of success …
Melvin, we are perfectly capable of obtaining our independence non-violently. Other nations have done it and so can we.
@Andy Ellis 9 14pm
Agreed. And also there is no need for a rebellion. As Alex Salmond said recently you have to believe there is a solution through the ballot box. But we have an agreeable, let’s not test evidence, broadcast media. Why?. At PMQs today Boris said I spoke to Nicola Sturgeon and the Union is never been stronger. QED.
And if you think the leaders of the movement are going to go to jail like their Catalan counterparts – still less start advocating for the armalite and the ballot box – I think you may be sorely disappointed.
Just because the ‘leaders’ are unprepared to get off the gravy bus doesn’t mean people won’t take themselves to the barricades.
100%Yes says: 6 July, 2022 at 5:37 pm
I’m not knowledgeable in constitutional matters so apologies in advance.
The saying ‘now is not time for another referendum’ has been mentioned a few times. IIRC, the same reply has made by Teresa May.
Rather than flatly refusing a referendum, is this just political posturing or would an outright refusal from Westminster ignite a constitutional crisis between from what I can gather, two equal nation states in a union?
Saffron Robe says:
6 July, 2022 at 9:30 pm
Melvin, we are perfectly capable of obtaining our independence non-violently. Other nations have done it and so can we.
What’s the plan?
Apparently Johnson has sacked Gove
@George 9.30 pm
Yeah, I hear you. To be honest I’m not that confident of the way forward. I don’t think the movement has to be in lock step or have a group hug for success, but from what I’ve seen and heard in here, looking at the evidence of the last elections, and the lack of progress despite the shit show going on in Westminster, I’m less and less inclined to argue the toss in here or elsewhere.
PacMan,
Yes, I believe an official refusal would open up a can of worms and it would be off to the courts.
So I believe you are correct.
Andy Ellis @ 9.23
Yes, we are not going to agree on this. But it’s been a stimulating debate. We’ll just have to see how it plays out.
For what it’s worth, I hope I am proved wrong.
Forthcoming events may dramatically change the political landscape, and lead to further discussion.
Rather than flatly refusing a referendum, is this just political posturing or would an outright refusal from Westminster ignite a constitutional crisis between from what I can gather, two equal nation states in a union?
It’s not posturing. The line “now is not the time” is easy for them, because all they’re really saying is: “we’re not saying, never we’re just saying you can’t dictate terms to us, because you’re a devolved parliament, not our equal”. So far it has worked.
Scots and their representatives have 2 choices: they can ensure they secure independence and make it a moot point, or they can work within the devolutionary settlement, but seek to increase its powers, repatriate more levers, and make the britnats deliver on Gordon Brown’s “Home Rule” Vow. That kind of federalism wouldn’t really work in the UK system I think, nor would the little Englanders countenance it.
@Andy Ellis 9 42pm
To use a popular phrase today. We need a change of leadership. The leader no longer represents the movement. In terms of the fragmentation of the Independence movement I refer you to Stu’s ‘poison the well’ article of the Independence movement. Bang on as usual. But I am hopeful in the long term. Sturgeon needs to go soon and the public have noticed the hypocrisy of the Scottish Broadcast Media. We ask for only one thing consistency in their reporting.
Whit a fucking fanny Smith is. Nuhhin else tae say aboot that cunt.
Things Never To Say To A Scotsman In America; true pish thit yanks say.
https://whorattledyourcage.blogspot.com/2022/07/things-never-to-say-to-scotsman-in.html
@George Ferguson 9.53 pm
I wish you well. Not sure I believe in the hope of victory or even progress any time soon anymore. I think people are just getting scunnered and disillusioned.
The spirit of 2014 seems lacking, and without resources like WoS used to be I don’t see much prospect of movement in the short to medium term. I think folk probably have other stuff to concentrate on now. Most of the adults seem to have left the building. Maybe in 18 months time things will pick up.
The spirit of 2014 seems lacking, and without resources like WoS used to be I don’t see much prospect of movement in the short to medium term. I think folk probably have other stuff to concentrate on now. Most of the adults seem to have left the building
Over the past week there have been lots of new articles on Wings & very adult posters making interesting comments.
@Andy Ellis 10 05 pm
Fair enough Andy but keep the hope. Politics reminds me of ‘Stingray’ anything can happen in the next 30 minutes. I think in the long term the outlook is good. Although the SNP think time is on their side. I have to tell you I have been to 2 funerals of traditional SNP supporters in the last month. Independence supporters gone. So why do I think like that?. Principled Independence Supporters want to take control of their governance. Unfortunately the SNP are no longer the party to deliver that. Next..
.
EXCLUSIVE
Moves by Westminster’s 1922 Committee to sack Boris Johnson are currently being “addressed” by a dubious series of covert discussions orchestrated by Boris Johnson’s Chief Whip to CANDIDATES for the 1922 Committee election vacancies.
It should be wrong to say the Conservative Whips have a goody bag of knighthoods, damehoods and seats in the House of Lords, plus juicy, prestigious ministerial positions to give away.
But the fact is they do.
Five minutes ago, from an impeccable source, a candidate for the 1922 Committee elections in a few days time was offered a “K” followed by a guaranteed “L”.They need to remain on the 1922 for 1 year. Then they will be promoted to a ministerial position just under SOS.
The reason Boris is so bullish is he has his hands on all the levers of control and ain’t going anywhere for a year. BORIS KNOWS THIS AND THE MEDIA HAVEN’T FIGURED IT OUT YET. That’s why the PM is smiling so much.
Given a ONE year reprieve, Boris will have completed his Wirtschaftswunder…. The Economy Miracle that will save his bacon. Bill Clinton was way worse than BoJo, but he survived Impeachment by getting the economy right.
The Mainstream Media are all in a froth tonight, but every single one of them do what so many have done: underestimate Boris Johnson.
They ALL seem to have forgotten The wafer-thin Tory majority of 2019. What did Boris do?
EXTRAORDINARILY HE SACKED 21 TORIES and ran a minority government. Fact…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49563357
All the media and all the press in their frenzy tonight on what they perceive as the guaranteed removal of Boris will be smothered when the Wiley Old BoJo finds a friendly team in the 1922 Committee. Once elected, there is pretty much NOTHING anyone in the Tory Party can do when surprise, surprise, the NEW 1922 Committee vote to keep the OLD rules and let Boris have his full year reprieve.
For independently minded Scots, the delicious P45 end of odious Michael Gove an hour ago with 10 Downing Street calling him “A snake that has been sacked by 3 Prime Ministers” is nothing to the BLOODBATH that Boris will inflict upon Billionaire Rishi and his Egg Head pal Sajid Whatsisname plus the 42 disloyal MPs that are committing Regiside or if you follow Operation Save Big Dog, then they are all guilty of attempted Houndiside.
GET THE POPCORN OUT
Smith Commission stated:
“Nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose”.
Did Linda Fabiani ever get a response from Alister “Union” Jack when she asked for his Westminster government to confirm they still agreed with that statement. Think it was a year or so back.
Think someone needs to ask yon Smith Commission dude what method(s) Scots would actually get to express such a choice, coz it’s pretty shoddy half-arsed work if they were just making shit up…
Any & all Privy councillors who have publicly called for Boris Johnson to resign are failing to perform a duty in public office if they haven’t personally advised the Queen of their views. This is a common law criminal offence in Scotland, with a maximum sentence of life in prison.
Keith Stammer
Lord Bellyrumble of Untruthshire
Nictating Flounder
Iam BeingdraggedoutoftheEUagainstmywill
Govey the Binraker
Baz the Polis’ brurr
Pishi Greencard Billionaire
to misname a few.
I had a three hour converstation the other night. It went as follows:
So tell me, why should I vote for Indy now… economy in ruins, farming and fishing destroyed, chance to rejoin with EFTA…massive oil, gas and electricity (not to mention water) reserves… hmmm ok, fair point…
but what about Nikla, and her governments failures… agreed, no excuses, but the fact you know all about it, wouldn’t happen when all power are based down there, Scotland is a village, with Indy we can sort them out…. Hmm, but what about…
and isn’t Alex Salmond too old, why him…. proven track record, proven ability… hmmm fair point…
but why should I vote yes when we’ve been there, done that…
3 hours, folks, and I was the one trying to get away, 3 HOURS!!! anyway, they’re pals, and by this time I was brain dead and exasperated…
‘For heavens sake’, I said, its like this,
‘it’s shite just now, it’s going to get a lot more shite very soon (deliberately so, in Scotland’s case) and the only tool left in the tool box to sort it is Indy.’
Anyway they roared with laughter, and said, ‘that’s it, that’s it in a nutshell, you’ve nailed it, put that on a poster and we’ll win’.
Well I’m not sure it will go on a poster, (although it should, cause it sums it up exactly) and that’s not really my point, my point is, 3 HOURS, 3 HOURS they kept me there demanding more and more answers.
And that my friends does not show up on the polls, or the recent election result, but it is consistent with the response we’ve been met with on the doorsteps.
There’s a fat lady warming up her vocals somewhere nearby.
Let’s get this done.
Just like the last days of the May government a few short years ago.
Westminster is imploding, the media have nae bandwith for anything else ,all the Westminster MPs are more concerned about their own jobs and we in Scotland have an Indy majority.
Yet our MPs do nothing but watch.
What the hell is wrong with them?
Even IF they were and are following Nicola’s plan and even IF some believe it was somehow possible.
The crash out of Boris Johnson indirectly wrecks the already tight time table.
And more importantly gives the Westminster government *Once Again* time to regroup to the place where they can all take the time to sit and bray and he haw at us again.
Westminster is weak and distracted.
For fucks sake carpi diem.
Daisy – point to other countries who aren’t in the EU (like Switzerland) who is doing just dandy while we’re gonna hit a recession & they don’t print money like confetti like the Tories do to spend on bullshit we don’t want or need..(defense, trident – contracts to their mates during a pandemic etc)
Those £millions could’ve been emergency back up & helped families & current crisis if they hadn’t blew it all amongst their mates instead. Now they’ll have to go print more so prices will rocket. Someone needs to ask Rabb about the government’s *cash flow problems* Which brings us round to a supposedly rich country with more food banks nationwide than McDonalds.
Just pray you don’t get the million dollar gazumper ‘when is it?’
The time is now for Scots to come together to get rid of this rabid dog that is intent in killing us all.
Our economy is in collapse, inflation is soaring, the value of the pound sterling has collapsed over 20 percent, transport at ports and airports is crippled and in chaos, the NHS is collapsing as people are unable to see GPs or get hospital procedures, we are at loggerheads with the EU, the state of Northern Ireland is in political chaos as the agreed NI protocol is broken and the internationally mandated Good Friday Agreement broken.
In the not to distant future power shortages loom, whilst industrial action to secure wage increases to offset the soaring inflation portends the commencement of a winter of discontent unlike any other sustained this last one hundred years.
And against this background the Prime Minister writes to Nicola Sturgeon to say that Scotland can not have a referendum. Not for the people of Scotland the right to express their democratic views it is not difficult to see how the UK state is a failing state run by oligarchs for oligarchs and not the people.
The time is therefore now where we must take, must take, must seize independence and put the mad dog down before it kills us all.
Agree entirely with Willie . NS needs to take immediate action to “ break the Union” . If necessary she should resign her government and announce a new Holyrood plebiscitary election now . Enough is enough !
If the SNP come up with some reason for not making the next election a plebiscite (whenever the election is held), then Alba should go ahead and make their vote a plebiscite. Or even threaten to do so if the SNP start backtracking. The Alba party may be small but boy can they breathe down the SNP necks on this one.
All those expecting Sturgeon to act and seize the day for Scotland, I’d quote the words of Johnnie Armstrong, betrayed by his king, and on his way to the noose…
“I was but a fool seeking grace from a graceless face….”
http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20People/gilnochie.htm
Daisy , you have cheered me up , thank you!
@George Ferguson 10.26 pm
Fair enough Andy but keep the hope. Politics reminds me of ‘Stingray’ anything can happen in the next 30 minutes. I think in the long term the outlook is good.
Agreed, there’s always hope…it’s just the timescale that worries me I suppose. Previously I was pretty hopeful – confident even – that there would be progress in the short to medium term, but now I just don’t see it.
Entertaining as the current Tory meltdown is to watch, and interesting as the constitutional shenanigans are, the end result will probably still be a Tory government in place until the next election, just with a different figurehead. Meantime the independence movement is still in thrall to the SNP, and I don’t see any significant opposition suddenly overturning that.
Seems like Stu is posting more recently which is a good thing, but I’m not sure folk in general are listening anymore. Any new campaign whether for a referendum or plebiscitary election is going to be pretty different from 2012-14 I reckon.
Yes North chiel the UK is in chaos with no functioning government.
And when I say no government that is no under statement. Where is the political direction in a utterly divided Westminster with an ever more divided Conservative party.
How on earth in all of this chaos can the UK operate nationally or internationally. With just about every minister of state without a minister, a prime minster that is being called to his face a liar and a crook, this is an emergency for all of us.
Who now talks for this busted flush of a UK. The World must be laughing at us. And this remember is a nuclear armed state.
With no one in place, the economy going down the pan, who is running things – the army?
Scottish MPs and MSPs must react, and they must react now.
“Willie @0806 am “, as a start Willie and in response to the “farcical Boris’s” “ refusal” to the referendum request , the SNP should immediately withdraw all Westminster MP’s . What a situation this has become whereby NS has to go grovelling to the Defacto “ English government “ for “ Permission” ( please miss can I go to the toilet) , to have an Independence vote . CONFRONT Westminster NOW !! Resign the Holyrood government and go to the people on the one issue “ End the Union and become a sovereign Independent nation “ . It’s long past time for ACTION not words .
Geri says:
7 July, 2022 at 1:22 am
Daisy – point to other countries who aren’t in the EU (like Switzerland) who is doing just dandy while we’re gonna hit a recession & they don’t print money like confetti like the Tories do to spend on bullshit we don’t want or need..(defense, trident – contracts to their mates during a pandemic etc)
Maybe the trick is to spot the hardcore Unionist early on and not waste any time answering their questions.
I believe you can spot the hardcore Unionist by the questions they ask. The main one being ‘what currency will we use?’
Better Together had the answer. They traced down all the ‘don’t knows’ those who could be persauded & ignored all the rest. They didn’t waste time preaching to the converted or trying to persaude independence supporters to vote NO.
Of course Better Together spent their money doing this research whereas the SNP used our money to buy office furniture or something. Any news about the police investigation into the disappearance of the £600K
BoJo’s throwing in the towel …
Commeth the hour, commeth the numpties aka politicians, representatives, deputies, mps and the like, serial abusers of democracy and anything they get their dirty paws on.
What happens when things get really bad.
https://www.arabbarometer.org/media-news/arabs-believe-economy-is-weak-under-democracy/
Breeks says:
7 July, 2022 at 7:58 am
All those expecting Sturgeon to act and seize the day for Scotland, I’d quote the words of Johnnie Armstrong, betrayed by his king, and on his way to the noose…
“I was but a fool seeking grace from a graceless face….”
http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20People/gilnochie.htm
Lovely words but I suspect you might need something a bit more hard hitting.
All those expecting Sturgeon/The SNP to act and seize the day for Scotland, I’d say
‘What are you on?’ ‘Are you nuts? ‘Please stop drinking the kool aid!
or something along those lines.
Any other suggestion?
Great Boris is resigning and they’ll be a new Tory Prime Minister who will say yes to Nicola Sturgeon.
Yes/No?
What’s going to happen to the gold wallpaper?
Will they be going back to Carrie’s flat?
So Johnson has decided to leave.
Time for the SNP and Alba MPs to pack up and leave too. The UK is a busted flush. Time we joined the community of small well run wealthy and successful small nations.
Sturgeon must act now or like Johnson be replaced.
How bad must things be, at constituency level in Englandshire, just now, that Conservative MP’s have forced BJ’s ousting.
I’m not sure Sir Kier Stammer is going to be the English voters knight in shining armour…. seen more life in a fish supper to be honest.
That leaves a dangerous vacuum in England, at at time of potential national disaster.
I would be hoping our Indy Leaders would be publically pointing out that an Indy Scotland could ease their pain, with a reasonably priced supply of energy (all types) – thereby leaving their greedy companies with no hiding place re their robber barron pricings.
By doing that, we promote stability with our neighbour (always good for business), but more importantly, we defacto, establish the truth of our vast energy wealth.
And just out of mischief…. as we promote and educate the People of Scotland of their written Constitution, and our Claim of Right… wouldn’t it be nice if the people of England start to look at it, and decide they wouldn’t mind adopting it too. Betty will have a fit.
Oh God! I forgot about that drug induced torture room.
Next in line will be battering the doors down to John Lewis.
Just goes to show money can’t buy taste – or hire it either.
LBC Brexshiteers are melting the phones “BoJo is a Saint. He got brexit done’ Umm. I think it’s universally agreed he didn’t even read it.
No matter who takes over. Tories have a never ending supply of cold sick to choose from.
Imagine if it’s Doris to continue his work? LOL!
Or Patel *shudders*
What will Sturgeon do? Nothing of interest besides crawing he should’ve left ages ago.
Some folks have no self awareness.
*Pot*kettle*black
As you were folks on the SNP front.
So Starmer claims “time for a fresh start” as BoJo promises to go sometime in the future. This is only the beginning of the chaos.
Everything seems to think that because Clown No. 1 is hanging up his red nose that somehow, someone from the mass of onlookers will throw off their peasant’s rags and declare themselves to be the true, Richard the Lion-heart and announce that the days of the usurper are over. Similarly, north of the border, a champion will emerge claiming the right to be the new embodiment of The Spirit of William Wallace.
Well, it ain’t going to happen. None of the ingredients have changed so putting all the rotten vegetables in different order is not going to create a delicious salad.
Time to break out the popcorn – while you can still get it in the shops. It will take a few more years of turmoil before people really do have the appetite for change.
I wonder what Nikla’s feeling just now, given that her rumoured UN job needs signed off by the UK PM.
He won’t live in a cottage with Carrie unless he’s taken out too many *personal loans* fae his mates he needs to pay off.
PMs are paid for life & go on cashing in after exit. I’m sure he’ll have his wish & earn even more now.
Wasn’t that his complaint before? The salary of a PM was a pittance. BoJo there, thinking he’s a supermodel who doesn’t get out of bed for less lol. Slobbering free loading barstewards. The pair of them.
Carrie will ditch him now. No way she’s playing wife in a two up two down semi.
Daisy Walker
I hope it’s regret. She dithered and now will pay the price. The next Conservative leader might not have that “special relationship” with their devolved minions.
I expect the shortcomings in the Scottish Government’s record of good government to become more and more of an issue as everybody finally wakes up to the fact the the UK is in a hell of a mess.
OT what has happened to Wings? My attempts to reach the page were all met with warnings of ‘security risks’ and when I finally reached the site, the format has gone all to pot – hard to follow. Is this an attack after several posts within the past week or so, or is it the effect of a ‘security licence ending’ as claimed in the warnings? Either way, here’s hoping it gets back to normal quickly at this time of rapidly changing events in the political scene and a potential leadership change in the wm gov. Such a shame that these events are all happening south of the border and there isnt the same potential leadership/leading party change in Scotland. Here, there remains the stagnation and stench which have defined the past 8 years.
How strange! When I attempted to post my comment, I got the same security warning, then wings format and everything returned to normal. There is still a red security warning on the address bar though. Apparently my credit card details and private information is being stolen.
Johnson is resigning as Conservative party leader not pm.
Why should a party leader also be pm or fm?
Ought there not to be a separation of powers?
A party leader ought to be the one to keep any oddball pm/fm in check.
Nadhim az Zahawi’s views on Scottish independence being damaging to UK interests make him ideal candidate for Westminster pm. He’s Kurdish.
Breastplate says: 6 July, 2022 at 9:43 pm
So the decision for Westminster to no agree in any official capacity to the Scottish governments requests in constitutional matters by saying ‘now is not the time’ was done on legal advice rather than on political niceties?
That is very telling but with the picture painted by more knowledgeable posters on here tells me that things aren’t that simple.
Fionan says: 7 July, 2022 at 10:54 am
The security certificate for this site has expired today. That flags up a warning with most browsers and should be taken seriously in order to avoid going to dodgy websites.
However, in the case of this site, it is okay 🙂
Get your website security certificate updated please Stu …
Fascinating how the elephant in the Westminster room, Scotland dissolving the United Kingdom, has been whitewashed and camoflaged to the point that in the current London musical chairs it is undetectable. Scottish nationalism ought to be a greater «threat» to the UK than Moscow could ever be.
Why isn’t it? Plus ça change, the more power is retained at the centre.
PacMan,
That’s my take on it. I’m not a legal eagle but nobody needs to be if there is nothing to go to court with.
Saying “now is not the time” is a personal and suitably vague opinion which can’t be contested because it’s only an opinion.
It’s already been used on this SNP government once before, that they have been caught with their trousers down twice by the same opponents beggars belief, the old addage “fool me once…” comes to mind.
A lamentably late and cack handed attempt to force Westminster’s hand shows us all how tactically astute the SNP really are. A day late and a Dollar short doesn’t even begin to cover it.
The years wasted with the SNP plan of embarrassing Boris Johnson into handing us a Section 30 and foghorned by Paul Kavanagh convincing many of the feeble minded that this was the best plan ever, has been absolutely scandalous.
That we still have more than a few the intellectually challenged in the independence movement that are urging us to look at, not what the SNP have done for independence but what they might do.
It doesn’t take genius to realise that Westminster have had an easy ride with this gold standard “no wildcat”, only with a Section 30 referendum, and that, perhaps we should change tack.
It would only need an SNP party slightly more tactically aware than a chimpanzee that was chucking shit at a fan.
But hey, as I’ve already said, I’m no legal eagle and the SNP have backward compatible plan for going forward.
From what I can gather, Boris Johnson has quit as PM but will continue on until a new Tory leader is chosen in October.
While he professes to be admiration of Churchill and given recent events, he thought trying to emulate the individual would see him through but given the Johnson has studied the ‘classic’, maybe he will be more like Claudius in the months to come?
I also got the ‘security certificate expired’ warning message for this site today.
That 72% Yes for Indy Poll must be getting them rattled.
We favour folks, can anyone find that list. the one that starts
Scotland 8% of the UK Population
32% landmass
64% Territorial Waters
etc. etc
Need it for a wee project. Many thanks.
PacMan
Or maybe Bratus Spoilicus
Ottomanboi says:
7 July, 2022 at 11:44 am
Scottish nationalism ought to be a greater «threat» to the UK than Moscow could ever be.
Dude, seriously?
How many fricking megatonnes of nukes does Scottish nationalism have, FFS?
What military threat does “Scottish nationalism” have by comparison?
Sending teams of Weegie neds to restart the Reiver Wars with two litre plastic bottles of supermarket own brand cola and packets of Mentos to chuck at “rocket’s nappers” from fifty yards?
Aye, the Zulu impis would have nothing on them – sure they could run fifty miles and fight a battle at the end of it, but they couldn’t last a whole weekend of running amok non-stop on just one bottle of Buckie and a Tunnocks like our lads can!
Mark Boyle,
We are statistically more likely to be nuked by the USA than the Russians or anyone else for that matter.
They are the only country to have ever used them on people.
Twice.
Given the incompetent buffoonery BoJo has indulged in since he became PM – channelling Benny Hill, treating the UK like a Carry On film – and the serious shit he has fucked up, covid, the economy, brexit, northern ireland … it baffles me as to what it is that pushes him over the edge for the tories
– did he strangle a vagrant on live TV, for a bet after too much bolly?
– did he accept a blowjob from the vagrant, then not text him afterwards?
what is the breach of modern manners he is guilty of? Cheating at golf, fiddling his handicap?
I don’t expect a lot from tories (good that is) – let’s see – vicious unrelenting class warfare, corrupt business dealings, dodgy links to the city, the spooks, foreign spooks; sexual impropriety – I would not say “all tories are p00fs” like many, but “any holes a goal” for most of them and pederasty is very big (“fact finding” in the chilrens homes, with a special branch bodyguard). The most “tory” thing ever was that Scots one, who while working for the MOD got caught brokering deals with the Israelis, helped by his Israeli boyfriend – if only he had done it at Yad Vashem, along with a “russian” oligarch in tow, it would be flawless.
Parliament is a bit like a talent show for narcissism/psychopathy – you don’t get anywhere near it unless you are somewhere on the scale. Nominated for a safe seat – you need sharp elbows and more.
Now BoJo is on his last legs, because the 1922 committee say so; well, who they and who voted for them? And who do they work for? Am in two minds about the guy, would you want to get rid of an incompetent tory, to replace him with a competent one? Is that a win for us? As for a labour govt – starmer is an establishment insider who might as well be a tory. Would you want a “tory” who everyone thought was a “semi decent” guy? Even during the war there were plans to shoot Hitler on his afternoon walk – only shelved when they realised he wasn’t doing that good a job.
Seems like a deliberate degradation of politicians over time – people of some accomplishment in life, professional politicians, actor (Reagan), TV personality (Trump), wrestler (Ventura, governor), comedian (Bojo, Zelensky). At least BoJo never got his country bombed (if it does happen, he will be gone).
Dream Team – Limmy, governing the country on his livestream; Frankie Boyle, foreign secretary, at G7, doing a 3 minute skit on PEEDA-FILES for the session opener, most of which doesn’t translate.
The tory leadership contest should be in Battle Royale format – my tip, Penny Mordaunt, with her crossbow. If those asian lads get the job at least they can get us everything “wholesale”.
Also makes you realise what a survivor Sturgeon is – how many other rival leaders has she seen off now? Makes you see what it will take to get rid of her.
MARK BOYLE. 12:16
Dont be so «literal»…there are more threats than you seem able to intellectually conjure.
Your comments seem to display a self hating wee Scotch type.
Do hope I’m wrong.
Enjoy your day.
Breastplate says:
7 July, 2022 at 12:30 pm
Mark Boyle,
We are statistically more likely to be nuked by the USA than the Russians or anyone else for that matter.
They are the only country to have ever used them on people.
Twice.
Are you real? The last time we were at war – actual or proxy – with the United States, they hadn’t even had their own Civil War yet! Russia meanwhile it has been one barny after another since Fat Vic was on the throne.
Ottomanboi says:
7 July, 2022 at 12:39 pm
Your comments seem to display a self hating wee Scotch type.
Do hope I’m wrong.
Enjoy your day.
If you can’t eat it, drink it or tape a parcel with it, it’s SCOTS.
As for the patronising stuff after, congrats on your Amazon purchase of the Ladybird Book Of Trolling (first edition, 1995).
Mark Boyle,
Is something I’ve said inaccurate?
You seem to be disagreeing with something I haven’t said.
Brilliant. We have a new more credible Prime Minister to look forward to, with a whole new way of telling Scotland to fuck off and shut up.
And since the SNP under Sturgeon is effectively a colonial administration, keeping the Scottish rabble in line on behalf of London, we don’t even have a political pot to piss in.
Anyway, everybody shut up and go back to sleep. Nicola’s got this. None of it really affects you, but, rest assured, Nicola’s got this…
Daisy Walker
Enter it into Google & click images tab. It’ll be in there.
@ Daisy
I recently linked back to the late Petra’s post with various stats. But here it is again for you.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-straightforward-offer/comment-page-1/#comment-2027916
Tory Backstabbers: “This is my chance!”
Labour Opportunists: “Get ready for government!”
SNP Strategists: “Oh No what do we do now?”
Boris Johnson: “What a waste of wallpaper!”
England’s problems are Scotland’s opportunities.
England is in turmoil. What is the plan from Scotland’s supposedly pro-indy politicians? Wait for England to regroup and recover, presumably so they can then beg England again for the chance to hold a referendum to end the union.
The political cowardice of supposedly pro-indy politicians is disgusting. The people of Scotland deserve so much better.
Hatuey says:
7 July, 2022 at 1:25 pm
Brilliant. We have a new more credible Prime Minister to look forward to, with a whole new way of telling Scotland to fuck off and shut up.
And since the SNP under Sturgeon is effectively a colonial administration, keeping the Scottish rabble in line on behalf of London, we don’t even have a political pot to piss in.
^^^^ This
The Tories have been looking for a way to get rid of Boris because they’ve wanted that 80 seat majority to lay on all the cuts they could on the lower orders “for their own good” whilst providing tax breaks galore and judicial looking the other way to “wealth creators”, since “we’re all in this together”.
Those celebrating today will be choking on their own hubris sooner than they think. Those who have lived through it know only too well that a focussed, disciplined Tory goverment is a lot more terrifying a prospect for the majority of us than a bumbling one – New Labour’s Thatcherism in a Red Rosette showed that only too well.
Never mind, at least you’ll be able to cosplay what gender and even species you are while slowly starving and freezing to death in the new “austerity” to come. Whoopee!
1922 committee. A private party within a party. A Secret members club who probably interfere with farmyard animals after a good sesh of satanic ritual.
They’re ultra, ultra Tory & super important. Grown men are known to shit their nappies at the prospect of being summoned.
There was a 3rd. The Brexshiteer exiteer club. Maybe Arlene ate those?
Suspish..
I’m not sure when Smith was interviewed but Iain Blackford called for a General Election in PMQs, so not sure what Smith is on about.
My other thought was that Alex Salmond was the biggest recruiting sergeant for Independence in the run-up to 18 Sep 2014, so why isn’t Sturgeon now the biggest? A bit odd to admit you’re not a draw for the Yes movement, and that any increase in support is actually because of repulsion from another figure (ie Boris). Crazy talk, in my opinion.
Mark..
I wouldn’t be fooled by the bumbling BoJo act. He’s devious & dangerous & acting like an ignorant fool was his media act so everyone could say ‘Aww, he’s a character eh?’ & ignore what he was doing in government.
Trump part 2. He may not even go at all. What’s the betting he’ll stay *until all these crisises are over & the country has made a full recovery from COVID*
I never understood the appeal of Boris – he was all talk and no substance. But the English seem to like that kind of ‘happy bluster’ – bizarre.
To cling on to power, I can see him digging up dirt on the last two contenders, or making it up, to so discredit them that the party will need to re-run the election with different candidates while he stays as PM.
Or maybe he’ll declare Martial Law because of threats from Russia and China and thus stay until he can call a GE.
Anything’s possible.
Daisy
This might be helpful macalbasite.wordpress.com/2021/01/25/scotland-the-wealthiest-country-in-europe-truth-exposed/
The words ‘I resign’ still haven’t passed Johnson’s lips.
Geri says:
7 July, 2022 at 2:34 pm
Mark..
I wouldn’t be fooled by the bumbling BoJo act. He’s devious & dangerous & acting like an ignorant fool was his media act so everyone could say ‘Aww, he’s a character eh?’ & ignore what he was doing in government.
Trump part 2. He may not even go at all. What’s the betting he’ll stay *until all these crisises are over & the country has made a full recovery from COVID*
Calling Johnson “Trump Part 2” surmises the lazy thought processes of an increasingly infantilised adult population who on the one hand want a billion genders and sexualities purely on the basis of belief and everything else reduced to a binary “goodies” vs “baddies”. It’s like a secularised version of the bad old days where astronomy, science and fossils were the devil’s work – no arguments! – but debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin passed for intellectual conversation.
Johnson was a Mayor of London – and by the word of no less than Ken Livingstone (on whose track record all Mayors of London should be judged) a damn good one – someone who had a solid enough political background and a broad enough mindset to take in points of view from outside of his life experience, and anyone else suggesting otherwise is allowing their “Tories baaaaaad!” emotions to override the facts.
Trump by contrast was a bellicous plutocrat who like most business people despises democracy and would much prefer dictatorship and “might is right” as being the way the world is run.
If Boris was really as devious and dangerous as the mythmakers would have it, he would never have been flatfooted by Michael Gove on the behalf of Tinfoil Theresa and had to wait three years to become PM.
Nor would he have been caught out by events which were largely a combination of:
1. his own stupidity in not being ruthless when he should have been – “oh yes, well, got to give a cove a second chance …” when all of his predecessors would have hung any who made them look bad out to dry (and got their press buddies to really go to town to ensure they were socially as well as career finished).
2. an unholy alliance of the woke and industrial strength neo-Thatcherites wanting him gone for entirely different and completely competing reasons. When ideologically dichomatic allies of convenience win their war against their common enemy, the bigger and much nastier war to the death tends to breaks out soon after.
The cappuchino bar lefties in particular will swiftly rue the day Boris went, and they discover just what sort of Toryism unfettered by EU laws and the European Court of Human Rights will come out of its cage. And they will win: because “ideology”, “justice” and “fairness” doesn’t pay the bills of those only too happy to aid their oppressors if they’ll pay them enough to put food on their table tonight.
Thatcher? Blair? Just wait until you see what’s coming up next kiddies, you ain’t gonna like it …
In Johnson’s speech two signal terms, herd instinct and darwinian. He knows politics and his branch of it rather well. The candidates for his job will display all the appropriate ruthless savagery, against each other. Rather fancy he will savour the spectacle.
If Scotland had produced a guy like him at the head of things instead of the thin lipped, prim old spinster tut tutting we have had to endure in certain quarters, some advance might have been made.
& the so called pandemic had zilch to do with the matter.
BoJo? *A damn good mayor* WTF?!
He wasted copious amounts of money. From his garden bridge ideas to his water tanks!
He IS like Trump. He isn’t gone yet. He may not. Trump caused a riot & how many dead?!
BoJo – not a dictator? Who are you kidding?
Parachute in yes men & change rules:
Selling peerages into House of Lords
Mates citizenship fast tracked for £3 million a pop
Owen Patterson debacle
Electrol commission – removing checks & balances. Removing any investigations of Tory funds.
Undermining the judicial review.
Ignoring ethics adviser
Ignoring legal adviser
Introduction of voting & boundaries for perpetual Tory rule
Proroguing parliament
Tory corruption COVID
Russian oligarchs
Bojows mate parachuted to BBC
Romove right to protest
Breaks international laws, repeatedly
Breaks ministerial code, repeatedly
Lie to public
Lie to parliament
Lie to Lizzie
Deporting refugees against Int law
Shall I go on?
@Geri –
Track & Trace?
How many *billions*? Was it 30?
Gregory Beekman says:
7 July, 2022 at 2:39 pm
I never understood the appeal of Boris – he was all talk and no substance. But the English seem to like that kind of ‘happy bluster’ – bizarre.
I think the UK doesn’t really understand that the Government you elect isn’t really the Government which runs the country.
The PM is really just a dancing monkey in a suit, who is tolerated and rewarded when the men in grey suits are happy, but who’s downfall can be engineered whenever the men in grey suits decide their puppet has outlived their usefulness.
That doesn’t just apply to the PM, but the whole UK Government. Whether it’s a Labour Government or a Tory Government, they are all pawns, and the parties are simply both cheeks of the same arse. Nothing “really” changes, just the window dressing.
The real UK “Establishment” rolls on in silence and closed door anonymity.
I’d disagree about him being flat-footed for 2 years.
The idiot had no idea what Brexit actually entailed so what did he do after Leave won?
He ran away, played cricket, went into hiding. He’d no plan & no idea. He wasn’t flat-footed by Gove. The two of them didn’t have a brain cell they could have shared.
& So it came to pass he fucked up the Foreign ministry role, a role given to him to keep him out of adults way waiting on her to come up with a plan THEN swoop in to be hero & *get Brexshit done – dead in a ditch* but lard arse didn’t read the *oven ready deal* so his usual answer was to just break international law *but only in a limited & specific way* LOL!
Ummm-, no. You can’t do that, Sir!
*I’ll have your resignation by morning*
Ok. But you still can’t do that..
*NEXT!*
*Shhhhh – don’t tell anyone. We’ll sign it for now & rip it up later – heehee I’ll get brexit done’ in time for the Bollinger’s*
EU.. No you won’t
Biden: who is this joker?
NI: Aye! Yer fecking right you won’t!
*You there, why can’t we enjoy all the trappings of the EU?*
You can sir – you’d need to join the Single market.
*Oh yes, we definitely want to do that!*
Can’t sir – that’s tied to freedom of movement.
*FFS!! NEXT!*
*You Boy, why can’t I have a party & cry if I want to?
Get me Clarissa on the phone. NOW!*
Can’t Sir – she was forced out. No more back scratching & your house is falling down.
Feeeeeeeeeeck!
BoJo not a law unto himself? Dismantling every single independent government office with his toxic BoJo brand that is there to protect us from eejits like him? He was corrupting & tearing up their rules all over WM – all while playing the class clown.
@ breeks 4.19pm conspiracy theory or not, I believe sturgeon was told to announce the 19th Oct 23 ref or plebiscite (which she didn’t really say anyway) and then muddy the waters by her seats or votes winner confusion and add in her lord advocates open admission of non support for any bill, I think she has breathing space AGAIN for a new tory pm which she will grasp with both hands ,
Ian, I think it was an eye watering £39 billion.
Maybe Dildo & friends is still trying to get it to work? 😀
& Lest we forget the £millions to their Tory mates for fake, flawed overpriced PPE.
*Hello. You’ve reached the fast track super Tory helpline – after the beep please leave yer name & a tory you know*
Hey, I own a company who specialises & supplies life saving equipment to NHS England & Wales. I have pallets ready to go &
*I’m sorry, Pretti is busy noising up the coast guard’s right now who want to save ppl from drowning & Hancock is in the middle of a lewd act. We’ll get back to you*
Hey. I know Pattel – I..
*Hired!! That’ll do! Enjoy your £millions..bye!*
Tragic but true.
So, lets say a Remainian like Hunt gets in.
He can’t really ask for another Referendum on Brexit, or he would have to accept one on Scotland.
(but Nickerla doesn’t really want one, oops; she must be losing sleep over that possibility)
I have zero interest in Boris. I don’t care if he stays or goes.
Can you ever imagine this sort of thing happening to ‘our thin lipped virgin spinster’ ?
Say what you like about the Tories they appear to have more balls than our SNP eunuchs.
I just had an eureka moment!
‘Our thin lipped virgin spinster’ loves the idea of men being castrated hence her obsession with GRA/self id.
What about David Davis. Any chance of him becoming PM?
@ Dan, thanks for that, just what I was looking for.
So, Boris resigning eh… or not…. ha, ha.
We knew the current batch of Tories were the C team, but my god you know the standards have truly fallen through the floor when they can’t manage their own PM assination properly. I mean that’s a torie speciality.
And Blackford shouting for a GE… the very worst thing at this time for Scotland, as it gets in the way of campaigning for Indy Ref/and or Plebiscite GE. Absolute fanny. Why am I not surpised.
Anyway folks, it’s like this,
‘things are shite now, they’re away to get a lot mair shite (specially in Scotland) and the only way to sort it is Indy.’
Our Indy MP’s should be standing up and quoting the Claim of Right in the HoC.
Meanwhile has anyone called Betty, I’ll pay her cab fair if she wants to nip round and do the needful on Boris, looks as if its slipped his mind.
Geri says:
7 July, 2022 at 3:49 pm
BoJo? *A damn good mayor* WTF?!
He wasted copious amounts of money. From his garden bridge ideas to his water tanks!
Again, Ken Livingstone disagrees with you, he’s a former Mayor of London and ergo in a better place to judge than someone parroting what they last read in the tabloids.
The London Underground extension projects in particular which he pushed through against all advice from the gas guzzler lobby and which made people chucking in their cars for public transport feasible.
He IS like Trump. He isn’t gone yet. He may not. Trump caused a riot & how many dead?!
The only riots under BoJo’s watch was the Black Lives Matter and Extinction Rebellion ones where thanks to our PCs being too PC every two bit toerag had a freebie – and they were clearly orchestrated by those wannabe Quislings only happy backing anyone that’s an enemy of those living on this island.
BoJo – not a dictator? Who are you kidding?
Parachute in yes men & change rules
Done by Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and especially Tinfoil Theresa, what’s your point?
Selling peerages into House of Lords
Done by Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and especially Tinfoil Theresa, what’s your point?
Oh, and McMillian, Wilson, Heath, Wilson again and Callaghan.
Mates citizenship fast tracked for £3 million a pop
Done by Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and especially Tinfoil Theresa, what’s your point?
In the case of Thatcher, amid all manner of Middle Eastern criminals, she even allowed in a tenth rate Apartheid apologist called Zola Budd because woman’s athletics at that time sucked on the track. In the case of Blair, also fast tracking in a pert young boy for Peter Mandelson, no payment required.
Electrol commission – removing checks & balances.
Done by Thatcher, Major, Blair, Cameron and even Tinfoil Theresa, what’s your point? Every Prime Minister since time immemorial has fiddled the electoral boundaries to suit themselves given the chance.
Removing any investigations of Tory funds.
Thatcher, Major, Cameron and Tinfoil Theresa again …
Undermining the judicial review.
Thatcher, Major, Blair and Cameron again.
Ignoring ethics adviser
Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and Tinfoil Theresa didn’t even HAVE ethics advisors, so again what’s your point? This was always a Jim Hacker idea of Boris’ that was bound to backfire on him.
Ignoring legal adviser
Done by Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and especially Tinfoil Theresa.
Oh, and Sturgeon. She just got rid of ’em till she got ones saying what she wanted to hear.
Introduction of voting & boundaries for perpetual Tory rule
Didn’t work very well in Tiverton and Honiton, or for that matter darkest blue Amersham, did it? And again, the fiddling of electoral boundaries to suit the party in power has been going on for well over a century.
Proroguing parliament
As Tinfoil Theresa tried … and failed.
Tory corruption COVID
You mean the handing out of contracts to the “connected”? Been around since Sir Robert Walpole was Prime Minister FFS, and you’re making this out to be something new?
Russian oligarchs
Around long before Boris arrived – time of Blair onward to be precise. Or did all those Sugar Daddied English Premiership clubs escape your notice – and the so-called Independent becoming even more like Pravda than the 70s Guardian?
Bojows mate parachuted to BBC
Oh my heart bleeds! After destroying one of their biggest global revenue earners Dr Who to turn it into some whoopsie’s party political correctness broadcast which – to no one’s surprise – divebombed its viewing figures as a result, it was not before time.
Romove [sic!] right to protest
Yeah, really stopped Black Lives Matter and Extinction Rebellion from having their jollies … and by the way, wasn’t there some All Under One Banner protest marches recently?
Breaks international laws, repeatedly
Breaks ministerial code, repeatedly
Lie to public
Lie to parliament
Lie to Lizzie
Deporting refugees against Int law
Again, ALL done by Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and attempted by Tinfoil Theresa, but remarkably with little of the same media scrutiny BoJo had.
(Old Tinfoil even tried to expel the Windrush immigrants FFS – it takes some doing to attempt to expel Afro-Caribbeans who had lived here for over half a century as law abiding taxpayers!)
But then he’d had the temerity to commit the mortal sin to our pampered Fourth Estate most of whom have never done a proper job in their lives – and that’s put through that Brexit Tinfoil Theresa broke every Parliamentary and legal rule there was to try and stop (even though people had voted for it of their own volition and thus deserved to get it good and hard).
Those pesky airport queues for all those luxury holidays! The end of all those wonderful slaves whoops slavs serving our coffee and bagals in Pret, nannying our kids, cleaning our homes at a fraction of the cost, and not minding at all if you gave them dogs abuse, unlike those uppity natives who started talking about things like ‘legal rights’!
The man was a bounder! Didn’t he know that a underpaid, abused servile class of foreigners is what makes Britain great? You’d think some people had never watched Jewel In The Crown! At least Downton Abbey ought to have got them the memo!
He even talked about “levelling up” and making “internships” illegal – it may have been bullshit soundbites, but one just doesn’t go around putting such dangerous ideas into the proles heads – they might start believing it!
Nope, Boris was despised by our “betters” because he risked the status quo. He may have kept Corbyn out of No.10 – my guess is the conditions are going to reappear for someone better and more ruthless than that doddering old creep to emerge.
Shall I go on?
I’ve no doubt you will …
I think the Tory plan is the usual Tory plan of *everyone will bend to our will*
No matter who they pick.
Ruby -we need to bother or we find ourselves living under a totalitarian state.
The Tories didn’t & haven’t got balls either or they’d have forced him out long before now. Look at the litany of offences I posted above & that’s not even half of it – that they could’ve resigned in disgust over. They didn’t.
The only thing a Tory cares about is themselves, their next cabinet office job & their additional pay through either corruption or as a lobbyist with a corrupt PMs ear. etc
They’re like Raptors. They only attack in a gang once the flying monkies report back they can safely make a move & not be mothballed to the back benches forever.
With Westminster in constitutional crisis, this would be the time for an independence party worthy of the name to act – withdrawing their MPs and reconvening the Scottish Parliament independently of the Scotland Act. If only we weren’t saddled with a faux independence party crippled with a moribund leader and frozen in stasis.
Total BS Mark.
I suggest you burst out your bubble & join the real world.
That is all happening under BoJo with many commenting the laws haven’t been this oppressive since the end of WW2. Championed by Pattel & BoJo.
& Don’t be deluded the right to protest, for example, is for environment, statues of criminals who drowned slaves or even AUOB.
It could be your right to even vote in the not too distant future.
Not engaging with nonsense everything is Thatcher & 40 years ago. FFS the world’s moved on or so you’d think!
Will he or won’t he resign, has been on the lips of the Britnat media about Boris Johnson all day, I personally don’t give toss whether he stayed or went for it means nothing to the indy movement. It doesn’t matter who they put in Number Ten they oppose Scottish independence, its a core principle the Jocks mustn’t be allowed to dissolve the union, never ever.
The current wretch in Number Ten Johnson, even though he was under fire yesterday, and sycophant after sycophant resigned, putting him under more pressure, Johnson still took the time to write to our FM to tell her no way will I issue a S30.
I couldn’t give a monkeys who replaces Johnson, they’ll just be another arsehole that we’ll need push aside if we want to exit this bucket of shit union.
“We are statistically more likely to be nuked by the USA than the Russians or anyone else for that matter.”
Brestplate.
I agree, they’ve already nuked two Japanese cities, invade countless countries on the BS of bringing democracy to the country and regime changed via murder and unrest in many other countries, the USA is indeed the Great Satan.
Geri says:
7 July, 2022 at 6:58 pm
Total BS Mark.
I suggest you burst out your bubble & join the real world.
That is all happening under BoJo with many commenting the laws haven’t been this oppressive since the end of WW2. Championed by Pattel & BoJo.
Proof please.
Don’t remember BoJo framing a ticket inspector or murdering a weapons expert because they fined the PM’s wife or knew too much like Blair did …
And there’s a difference between passing laws and actually implementing them, as our friends merrily dingying their way across the Channel in all weathers will testify. Or for that matter, those wankers gluing themselves to paintings, trains, aircrafts, beating up women for having tits and ovaries, etc, etc. and being in about as much fear of the law and retribution as some feral brat running riot in a Glasgow show while his disinterested mother drones “now Nathan, stop that, that man’s on minimum wage gonnae come un shout at you, so he wull …”
” … with many commenting …” – sorry but the Guardian’s hivemind doesn’t count as many, it counts as one … if you want to keep your job.
Just ask half their staff, now writing with zero irony for their immortal enemy the Telegraph!
Don’t be deluded the right to protest, for example, is for environment, statues of criminals who drowned slaves or even AUOB.
RATFLMFAO! So what were they instead of protests? Flash mobs for TikTok instead?
It could be your right to even vote in the not too distant future.
Straw man. The rules for voting have always been clear enough, and you won’t see me crying over any ending of the blatant ballot stuffing in seats with large ethnic minority populations – Labour’s little Frankenstein monster now out of control now the likes of Lutfer Rahman and his openly racist Aspire party shows they’ll junk their useful white middle class idiots once no longer needed.
Insert..
‘Right to protest is *limited to..’
Your post is garbled. Are you suggesting the rules of voting can never be changed & that you’re terrified ppl of the wrong colour will vote in elections so it ok even if they are?
Boris Johnson is a proven compulsive liar.
Boris Johnsons has NOT resigned, he has merely said he ‘will’ resign.
Are tories really so thick, as to fall for such bullsh*t??? It seems only John Major can see what is going to happen.
Boris has zero intention of giving up the role of Prime Minister, and the whole Tory party has today, been right royally played.
Breastplate says: 7 July, 2022 at 12:13 pm
Just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to mock Johnson.
At least with the popular myth of Claudius, he had used his disabilities and the perception of his peers that he was stupid and not a threat to navigate the murderous currents of politics before and after he came to power. He had did that because of his cunning and people underestimating him.
The same could apply to Johnson with my Jolly, everyman buffoonery of saying it like it is that seems to go down well with the certain part of the voting public in the UK. However, behind that persona, he is ruthless and don’t underestimate him as other posters have mentioned.
Also, as other have already mentioned, he hasn’t said he has quit as Prime Minster so expect him to be around in the near future, even if it means he has to wait a few years to be the Knight in shining armour at picking up the pieces of his successor(s).
Breastplate says: 7 July, 2022 at 11:50 am
I had posted a wee while back about the UK government recently declaring that they wouldn’t build any new nuclear plants in Scotland despite the urgent need to secure energy security in the light of recent events.
Given how emotive the issue of nuclear power is amongst the public, it’s hard not to see that there would be a legal challenge and it would be hard not for these judges to pass the buck or waffle about so vague legal chargin to get out of delivering a clear decision.
Considering that the Scottish government supports a non-nuclear Scotland, Westminster wouldn’t want to create a precedent where a ruling went towards the wishes of the Scottish parliament.
I know it is all hypothetical and not tested but it does give a glimpse of the power that the Scottish parliament has if done in the right way and done by the right people.
Unfortunately as you say, the current showers of individuals in charge of the SNP and their bewildered herd of supporters haven’t the imagination, resolve and simply the simple diplomatic skills to even contemplate this.
As others have said, whether Johnson survives this or not, Sturgeon and her cohorts will be shaking their hands this glee as they can flog the dead horse of going through the motions to try and get approval from Westminster to do anything.
And here we go again..
A UK Prime Minister in office but not in power.
Unable to make meaningful decisions .
Refusing to leave for months.
His Party distracted and maneuvering for their own positions.
The 2nd time since 2014 Westminster is on the ropes.
And Still, STILL Nicola Sturgeon and her Party won’t MOVE.
What utter bastards
Met a handful of die hard indy campaigners yesterday who were trying to come up with a strategy for getting tge Yes campaign going locally.
Tragedy is, not one SNP Councillor, msp mp or party employee was interested in helping. The penny dropped with them… The SNP is Not interested in independence and has by action, become a uionist party. Bought and sold for english gold mark 2.
Utter treacherous bastards.
Sturgeon is under control of the british state. No doubt about it. What is more shameful, is the silence of the MSPs, MPs, councillors, and members of the SNP!
Only when it’s too late, and historians teach of the wasted opportunity the SNP is passing up, will the people of Scotland mourn the betrayal of the SNP.
It would be far too much to expect any SNP politician to have the courage to stand up for scotland, let alone go against the party line.
Void of courage, void of morality. The SNP is poison to scotland far more than unionist politicians.
“We are statistically more likely to be nuked by the USA than the Russians or anyone else for that matter.”
Man, oh man, this site never fails to deliver on comedy.
I can clearly remember being “nuked” by the clusterfuck at Chernobyl. But I guess that was “friendly radiation” to some of the usual suspects on here, so does not count.
PacMan says: 7 July, 2022 at 8:17 pm
“Considering that the Scottish government supports a non-nuclear Scotland”
Hmmm. Some evidence online to suggest that not only is that statement not accurate when applied to Scots voters, it is no longer even accurate when applied to the SNP.
You need to keep more up to speed with the reaity of a fast-changing world, PacMan. No point in just regurgitating stuff you think is right because it was ten years ago or whatever.
What? Scots want mores radioactive waste dumped in Scotland & another Dounreay disaster?
Who are those voters?
A bitter and fatally wounded Prime Minister still in office.
And around him a blood bath of internal fighting to secure the PM slot with an even bigger infight to secure new ministerial appointments.
This is a government in absolute internal warfare. And Johnson is still in slot as PM. This is insanity. his is a nonsense. Are we really saying there is a functioning PM, cabinet, and team of ministers. Who is running things. The new Johnson Government – the Prime Minister, his new cabinet, his new ministers – who.
And all the while the country collapses around as whilst we are at war with Russia.
Saffron Robe @ 6:52 pm
“With Westminster in constitutional crisis, this would be the time for an independence party worthy of the name to act – withdrawing their MPs and reconvening the Scottish Parliament independently of the Scotland Act. If only we weren’t saddled with a faux independence party crippled with a moribund leader and frozen in stasis.”
Worth repeating the fact of the matter – Scotland’s sovereignty is aye in the hands of Scotland’s MP’s, who choose to let us doun bigtime.
John Main. Is your online source about Nuclear in Scotland the Daily Record poll quoted. If so it is a lot of cobblers. That poll was done by Scotland In Union. So right away I know its fiddled. They are notorious. I think their last indy poll had 40% yes!
https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-snp-leadership-s-doublethink-on.html?m=1
Would love it if a GE was called…
The sight of Sturgeon doing the rounds in her covered yellow wagon, selling MI5 brand snake oil embrocation to the gullible, is truly priceless.
Johnson’s gone…so one down, one to go!
@Big Jock
Reported in the Scotsman, 10th May, 2022. Survation poll shows majority of Scots support retention of nuclear weapons.
Reported in the Express, 1st June 2022. SNP considering ditching anti-Trident policy in order to smooth the path for an Indy Scotland into NATO.
You claim the poll cannot be trusted. I claim the timing and sequence of events is interesting, possibly even linked.
Certainly, I think the SNP is to be commended for taking some pragmatic steps towards grown-up policies.
In other news, the ongoing self-destruction of Germany and the German economy is discussed on Unherd today. It’s not just WM that is falling apart. And with the decline of Germany, and hence the political and economic engine house of the EU, goes the “get out of jail free” card so beloved of many in the Indy movement; the seamless transfer of control and responsibility (and blame) from WM to Brussels.
As I have written before, the times they are a-changing.
I don’t have answers for much of the woe and misery that is heading our way. But I do believe that clinging to the comfortable shibboleths that underpinned the movement of 2014 will be clearly seen by a majority of Scots to offer no practical roadmap for the future of an Independent Scotland.
And if that’s true now, how much less relevant will all this ancient history be by October 2023?
Today, following yesterday’s events in London, I checked to see who the English prime minister is, and, well, it’s still Boris Johnson.
Scotland needs independence ASAP. It is abundantly clear, that England is now a failed state, clinging on to medieval ‘conventions’, while a thuggish cabal of crooks in suits (the Tory party) literally steals from taxpayers in full views, with impunity.
And corrupt, crooked, liar in chief, Alexander Boris De Pfeffle Johnson is still the English prime minister.
LizG at 923pm,
Must say, I heartily agree. NOW, is the time for Sturgeon to assert our democratic rights. NOW. Not next week, or next year. Bring the referendum forward. Scotland needs out of this sh*tshow from Lonodn as a matter of some urgency.
But, no, Nicola still seeks permission from the proven liar and utterly corrupt English First Minister, Boris Johnson.
John Main says: 7 July, 2022 at 10:47 pm
Hmmm
This so this from 10 years ago?
https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/energy-strategy-nuclear-power-stations-scotland-uk-plans-1562474
This is a critical moment for Nicola Sturgeon. The planets have lined up and may not do so again for a generation. It’s make or break time. Surely she is very aware of just how exposed she now is, and has to, for once, act decisively? Many people (in the SNP and wider indy movement) have given her the benefit of the doubt but this goodwill won’t last forever. People are watching. Bold action is required now. Not next year, not 2024 but now. The entire movement will fall in behind you or they will drift away. No more business as usual. What’s it going to be, Nicola? Something sensational or another big let-down? One can but hope.
Beginning to look like the cunning vote independence because Boris likes those around him to enjoy themselves might be hitting the buffers however, if Carrie likes the wall paper enough – and can be persuaded to run a better party, she could probably still hoover up enough grass root support* to give Boris some real work in number 10 once his stint as emergency PM ends – and/or the apparent need to deflect from supreme court failure to respond to the Lord Advocate in a timely manner is resolved.
In interim, herewith a potentially fake but nonetheless interesting heatmap from early days of covid (actual date of interest can be changed within the url)
https://zoom.earth/maps/base/#view=39.8,30.9,4z/date=2020-04-07,14:30,+2/overlays=heat,fires
*Perhaps especially if she undertakes to pardon enough journalists and exploit enough ’best” practice from the new world to circumvent enough due process and civilly forfeit enough assets from enough of his fiercest critics to cover enough of next seasons parties and way, way more than enough of the free beer being mentioned..
Tories everywhere waking up today thinking, “Well thank fk. The worst and most disastrous poor excuse of a leader we’ve ever had has finally got his marching orders”.
….Viewers in Scotland have their own programs.
I am guessing that the Indy Fund was stripped totally of cash so the SNP cant afford to run an Election Campaign against Brit Parties that are probably funded by Putin’s Oligarchs, most of whom aren’t being sanctioned.
Speaking of that Indy Fund. I wont be expecting any arrests and charges to be made any time soon.
Teapot and kettle springs to mind here, substitute Johnson for the betrayer and we wouldn’t know the difference.
“Boris Johnson as Prime Minister was only the latest manifestation of a dysfunctional, broken, and corrupt Westminster system that long ago stopped working for Scotland.”
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F20264681.nicola-sturgeon-boris-johnson-showed-wrong-westminster%2F
So many in England, Ministers, MP’s, Business Leaders and moments of the public
Distraught at their great leader being forced out for matters as trivial as breaking U.K. and
International Law, Partying every Friday during lockdown, being a sexual predator, a pathological liar and a narcissist.
Now they must find a new leader who will be someone who knew all of the above but covered up and covered up while the economy crashes and burns in every direction.
Millions of working families without hope of job security, having enough food on the table or being able to keep warm as winters bites.
None of the Tory candidates have stood up for the people or took on Boris so the next lie is this new beginning, brush off build better, power house and levelling up and promise jam tomorrow. A jam with a lid that must be welded shut.
Westminster is the worlds laughing stock but the pantomime continues.
Spot on…
https://fb.watch/e6yzk6tCmE/
The man who is still the UK’s pm was labelled, chancer, chameleon, cavalier, law breaker, buffoon etc but he pushed through a constitutional change in the face of major opposition.
The «mimsy» performance of the Court of Bute House by comparison, alas..
I take the Court is fired up for a UK GE?
What an opportunity!
We could learn today if Durham Police will issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to Keir Starmer over Beergate. Certainly early next week at the latest. Both Starmer and his deputy Raynor have committed to resign if that happens. The First Minister is waiting patiently in the Wings having gamed recent events into our cunning plan.
At least WM has some action!
What do we get here? Tumbleweed…
(‘And now we go live to our Holyrood correspondent, Samuel Beckett…’)
🙁
Ian Brotherhood.
I’ve said it countless times, the SNP MSPs and MPs are gutless and spineless troughers, self serving arseholes who’d rather sit back and scoop up the cash and benefits of office than speak out and try and save Scotland from this poxy union. The SNP IS NOT a party of Scottish independence anymore.
I can’t stand the Tories but even they can be mustered to remove a dodgy PM, what does that say about our Three Wise Monkey’s MSPs and MPs. As long as they’ve got their cushy jobs and good wages, even though they’ve made a complete mess of governing we’ll remain trapped in this fetid union, until we can get them out or a replace Sturgeon with a real indy minded FM.
George Ferguson says:
8 July, 2022 at 9:51 am
We could learn today if Durham Police will issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to Keir Starmer over Beergate. Certainly early next week at the latest. Both Starmer and his deputy Raynor have committed to resign if that happens.
Don’t hold your breath on that one, even if they do get fined.
The one and only reason BoJo is clinging on right now is that he doesn’t want to be seen to have served less time as PM than Theresa Mayhem, who he ousted. Mayhem served 1106 days as PM, BoJo has only “served” 1080, so he needs to stay another 27 days to make sure he doesn’t appear even worse than her.
Yesterday whilst driving I heard a clip on the radio of “our” First Minister and leader of the supposed pro-indy SNP describe the UK as a country…
This was in the context of she /her saying BoJo had lost the confidence of the “country”. So failure to stress that the UK is a State. Plus when did he or his party ever have the confidence of Scotland in the past 50 years or so…
Former Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe has died after being shot while giving a speech in the western city of Nara, state broadcaster NHK said.
He was killed with what appears to be a home made gun, a forty-one years old man is in custody.
John main @ 10:36pm
You are allowed to disagree with anything you please but surely you should be able to point out inaccurate information?
It is a simple statement of fact.
I suppose being militaristic in nature it’s comforting to become exercised about certain contrary points of view because your emotionally wedded to an opposing idea, to the extent you will deny reality.
John Main,
Regarding your thoughts on the transfer of control from Westminster to Brussels because that isn’t pure or proper independence, how does that square with being in a military union?
Surely if pure or proper independence is the goal, we would shun institutions like NATO?
@Breastplate (10.49) –
Hear hear.
And what of the Scottish Govt taking credit for making a £65 million ‘donation’ to one side in a foreign conflict without so much as a debate in the Scottish parliament?
This says it all really about what’s wrong with the SNP.
“THE SNP staff member who was the victim of an “unwanted sexual advance” by MP Patrick Grady, says he is being threatened with disciplinary action by the party.
The man, who was 19 at the time of the incident, has been warned he faces misconduct action after he sent an email to MPs and staff criticising the SNP response to the scandal.”
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fpolitics%2F20262284.snp-threaten-sexual-harassment-victim-disciplinary-action%2F
IanB,
I’m a great believer of ‘charity begins at home’.
Sending money abroad reminds me of Jack McConnel sending £1.5 billion back to Westminster because he couldn’t, for the life of him, think of anything else to do with it.
George Ferguson @ 9.51
Ha ha! Sturgeon waiting in the Wings (capital W duly noted).
What makes you think the Starmer decision is so near?
What must they think in Englandshire about their fate being in the hands of a Geordie bobby who has to decide whether or not to issue a ticket for drinking beer. No pressure there then!
Perhaps the Durham police will dip the left shoulder and send it to their CPS for a decision. Such an important decision would have to go to the DPP. Who might have to excuse himself as a former colleague of Starmer. And wanting a longer career.
Who next in the pass the parcel game?
I see comments here and there comparing 3 Tory Prime Ministers to the “stability” of Sturgeon’s administration. It’s enough to make you weep.
It’s like praising the peace and quiet after Pax Romana.
Sturgeon could offer to be caretaker PM and Leader of the Tories and she’d still screw up a Section 30 agreement because she’d have to rule for everybody.
https://tinyurl.com/59my4vrf
Very interesting!
These guys make a lot of sense.
Gregory Beekman says:
7 July, 2022 at 2:39 pm
I never understood the appeal of Boris – he was all talk and no substance. But the English seem to like that kind of ‘happy bluster’ – bizarre.
It’s not only the English. The big, righteous, ever-so-good Scottish independence minded electorate have, on the whole, supported Sturgeons glaringly obvious shite at the kind of societal expense that would have been only though possible in a sci-fi movie 10 years ago.
Seriously. Bojo voters should hang their heads in shame – I remember making a comment to that effect here on WOS when he came to power.
But we have an equal, if not worse, shower of cretins who have acted like religious zealots in that they have cast onto the altar so much while ignoring (or attacking) the people pointing out the actual facts.
Simply – anyone who has cast a vote for a major party in Britain in the last 5 years without it making them feel physically sick is as clueless as any of the rest of electorate and has no business pointing fingers.
Sturgeon’s private prosecution service the COPFS is to prosecute three folk who prevented Police Scotland from removing folk from Kenmure street in the 2021 demo to stop the Home Office from removing residents.
Irony
The conservatives plan to change their rules to hold another leadership vote after only a few weeks, but won’t allow the Scottish people another vote on indy
In all the noise surrounding the UK PM there is no mention of Scotland and the possible end of the thing itself.
For that total marginalization much thanks O Great Advocate of the People.
Indeed how easy it is to stick Scotland in the sticks when something important crops up in the place where the real power resides.
On the scale of importance the interests of N Ireland would appear to have more «clout». As for that 20th century Soviet creation whose existence needs defending at all costs, no contest.
Unless the plodding, à la lettre lawyer is replaced by someone with more evident derring do that may well continue.
You might suppose a greater understanding of the opponent given the hundreds of years of the Scotland-England Game. Fairness, rule of law and so forth, excellent providing you understand your place and the ancient right to tweek the rules should they not suit the purpose.
@Meganser 11:29pm
Although there is no time limit for issuing a Fixed Penalty Notice re the Coronavirus Regulations. There has been an average of 3 to 4 weeks since a Police questionnaire was completed by the potential offender. Starmer returned his questionnaire on June 17th. It is a serious situation. Any appeal has to be made in Court. Hence the fine can be £30 or can quickly rise to thousands. In addition the person who filmed Beergate has said they would attend a Court hearing to testify. It would be the same process for me or you. Starmer and Raynor will have to resign. Perhaps it will start a trend of politicians resigning for wrongdoing. If only in Scotland.
I’m not sure when Smith was interviewed but Ian Blackford called for a General Election in PMQs, so not sure what Smith is on about.
Ian Brotherhood says:
8 July, 2022 at 10:00 am
At least WM has some action!
What do we get here? Tumbleweed…
(‘And now we go live to our Holyrood correspondent, Samuel Beckett…’)
It’s very strange isn’t it.
Time to give up expecting politicians to do anything for us.
How many times can we post that the SNP are useless & Nicola Sturgeon is a dud.
I’m been busy watching Blair White which I would recommend if you are interesting in hearing some common sense on the ‘trans issue’
Gregory Beekman says:
8 July, 2022 at 12:26 pm
I’m not sure when Smith was interviewed but Ian Blackford called for a General Election in PMQs, so not sure what Smith is on about.
When he says General Election does he mean ‘pseudo referendum’? Are we ready and what about the result from the SC?
Maybe Blackford reads Wings and decided he’d better take a different view from Smith.
Bojos going nowhere without a fight.
His leaving..I mean, blaming speech a giveaway.
The pretendy king isn’t about to give up his pretendy palace anytime soon & the injustice of it that he can’t finish his plans for government which would’ve been *world beating* no doubt.
Classic narcissist.
A call to arms tae the knuckle dragging faithful & giving himself some time to organise a coup perhaps?
He’s never shown any regard for Lizzie or her parly so I can see a ‘Feck you too’ on the horizon.
Who’d he call for external help?
Be another Farage & strike out on his own? Narcissists never forget a slight. Ever. He’d tare the party apart 1st & what better way to start than relaunching the one that nearly did it before? UKippers Part II?
Geri says:
8 July, 2022 at 12:47 pm
Bojos going nowhere without a fight.
Good on him! At least he’s got more balls than the
eunuchs we have representing us here and at Westminster.
What did you think of my theory about Nicola Sturgeon loving to see men castrated hence her huge support for GRA/Self ID
Sir Keir is cleared. I am saying nothing!
Another poke in the eye for the Tories. But Is Starmer any different (politically and morally, not in his alcohol taste)?
Ruby,
THE TRANS ISSUE FITS THE MILGRAM EXPERIMENT, TO THE T
As does cancel Culture.
George Ferguson says:
8 July, 2022 at 12:58 pm
Sir Keir is cleared. I am saying nothing!
———-
You just did.
REV STU,
All my comments have the moderation heading above them, as I have never swore on this site, nor name called anyone, nor mentioned the ABCs, nor named a certain unmentionable country, nor lost respect for your advise you have given, and have been posting here for years I am wondering why only my comments ? have this heading above them.
The scoping academic research commissioned by Lady Poole has been published on the Scottish Covid Public Inquiry website. Professor Greene University of Edinburgh specifically asks the Inquiry to question whether the four lockdowns were necessary including lockdown 4 known as the virtual lockdown December 2021. Reasons to be cheerful part 1.
Gregory.
Smith was interviewed before BoJo pretendy agreed to quit a day later.
‘Ive had my phone off for 5 minutes & I’ve no idea what’s happening’
The reality = Fuck off talking about politics tae a see whits happening on Tinder! It’s been 5 minutes fae I checked my phone.
Giving whiney Blackford 3 days to think of something for PMQs. Knowing with 100% certainly that not even the janitors care what he whined about.
Tories won’t call a GE & risk their majority. They’ll shoe in a dud which will infuriate the narc BoJo even more cause those were HIS loyal subjects who voted for HIM & HE gave these ungrateful barstewards a job or they wouldn’t even be there!’
What’s Nicola doing? Nothing. Munching on copious amounts of popcorn.
Sturgeon could run to an open goal with a ball in her hand & she’d still miss.
Ruby. She doesn’t want them castrated & neither do the organisers of GRA.
Their whole argument being that they shouldn’t have to prove anything to anyone with such things as medical records or nosey folks *looking in their pants*
@Geri –
I remember a cartoon strip in Viz called ‘The Bottom Inspectors’. No idea if it’s still going but it wouldn’t be ‘funny’ anymore now that the real thing appears to be with us.
Geri says:
8 July, 2022 at 1:48 pm
Tories won’t call a GE & risk their majority. They’ll shoe in a dud…
The Tories have got the Brexit they wanted, and they’ve also got the fall guy they wanted to carry the can for all the people screwed over by Brexit.
With the possible exception of having Johnson carry the can for breaking the Northern Irish Protocol, I can actually see the Tories feeling quite pleased with themselves with the way things are going.
They’ve pretty much wrecked what they wanted to wreck, and now there’ll be nothing but plaudits for “steady hands”, and people stepping up to help the Country out of a crisis. Quite similar to the period after Thatcher, when things couldn’t have gotten much worse, when suddenly insipid mediocrity looks like a refreshing alternative.
They’ve even got a proxy war, might yet even be a real war, on their hands, which also a good excuse to fly the butcher’s apron loudly and proudly.
I think folks are overstating the effect on Scotland. The UK could install Larry the Downing Street cat as next Prime Minister and it would still be faster on its feet than Nicola Sturgeon.
Geri says:
8 July, 2022 at 2:03 pm
Ruby. She doesn’t want them castrated & neither do the organisers of GRA.
Are you sure that is true? I’m pretty sure they want hormones to be prescribed and medical procedures available to all who self-id.
What about metaphorically speaking? Was she not keen to see Alex Salmond ‘castrated’
Is putting on a dress & lipstick not an act of ‘self castration’?
robbo says:
8 July, 2022 at 1:16 pm
George Ferguson says:
8 July, 2022 at 12:58 pm
Sir Keir is cleared. I am saying nothing!
———-
You just did.
No he didn’t but I will.
Sir Kear clear! Frankly my dear………..
Just repeating the mantra ‘Transwomen are women’
is an act of ‘castrating’ men. Nicola Sturgeon loves it.
Ruby says:
8 July, 2022 at 2:40 pm
robbo says:
8 July, 2022 at 1:16 pm
George Ferguson says:
8 July, 2022 at 12:58 pm
Sir Keir is cleared. I am saying nothing!
———-
You just did.
No he didn’t but I will.
Sir Kear clear! Frankly my dear………..
———-
Aye, but Ruby my dear he just did.
Now I’m no English professor but when you name somebody and say “cleared”- that’s a statement of fact! I wis actually being a wee bit facetious to George but, he ho. Sorry my bant is no up tae yir standards today.
Don’t they have that already? As demonstrated by the thousands of sudden referrals to Tavistock? Fae 20 to 20,000?
Only thing they want to fry is the insides off *the baby makers* Girls a plenty to experiment on.
As for Salmond – she wanted him out the picture completely after he said he was *thinking about a return to politics* he’d already scuppered her chances of the FM gig before – she wasn’t about to let him do it again.
Another Narc on our hands who refuses to go, refuses a challenge (Cherry being blocked fae Holyrood move) & has her minions to defend her – who also attack & slander Cherry but can’t seem to bring her down yet.
Imo..
robbo says:
8 July, 2022 at 2:56 pm
Ruby says:
8 July, 2022 at 2:40 pm
robbo says:
8 July, 2022 at 1:16 pm
George Ferguson says:
8 July, 2022 at 12:58 pm
Sir Keir is cleared. I am saying nothing!
———-
You just did.
No he didn’t but I will.
Sir Kear clear! Frankly my dear………..
———-
Aye, but Ruby my dear he just did.
Now I’m no English professor but when you name somebody and say “cleared”- that’s a statement of fact! I wis actually being a wee bit facetious to George but, he ho. Sorry my bant is no up tae yir standards today.
I’ll have to look back to see George’s other posts. Who knows I might let you off & give your ‘bant’ 5 stars. *****.
I did get a bit carried away self-idying as a pedantic English professor I was really just wanting to say I didn’t give a hoot (got to watch my language as I’m on a warning) about Kear being Klear.
PS You might want to watch your facetiousness you could end up on the naughty step with an actual professor.
Ian Brotherhood says:
8 July, 2022 at 2:16 pm
@Geri –
I remember a cartoon strip in Viz called ‘The Bottom Inspectors’. No idea if it’s still going but it wouldn’t be ‘funny’ anymore now that the real thing appears to be with us.
Viz is still with us, albeit a shadow of its former self. They started employing all these talentless wonders who have friends in the Guardian to bum them up as “funny” (“Drunken Bakers” being the worse offender) or keeping ones on long past the joke being done to death (eg. Sid The Sexist, Johnny Fartpants and 8Ace). Finbarr Saunders I understand was retired because of political correctness, even though double entendre humour makes up such a large part of humour on TV.
The really clever stuff like “The Modern Parents” and the “Real Ale Twats” (inspired by the Half Man Half Biscuit song “CAMRA Man”) that pissed off Guardianistas seem to have been quietly binned, and it’s only “gammon baiting” strips that are allowed, when what was brilliant about Viz was it was merciless to everyone and everything – although I see Millie Tant has made a comeback.
The Bottom Inspectors made me smile when they started having “Dalek” episode style names “Revenge Of The Bottom Inspectors”, “Destiny Of The Bottom Inspectors”, etc.
Now that the Dandy’s dead, they could always go back to ripping on them again – who could forget Black Bag, the faithful border
colliebinliner@Mark Boyle –
‘Black Bag’ came up recently with some workmates. Excellent stuff. But the readers’ letters were a class apart. The favourite, unanimously, was…
‘Imagine if your name was Mike Hunt?
How embarrassing would that be?!
Michael Cunt‘
Geri says:
Only thing they want to fry is the insides off *the baby makers* Girls a plenty to experiment on.
As for Salmond – she wanted him out the picture completely after he said he was *thinking about a return to politics* he’d already scuppered her chances of the FM gig before – she wasn’t about to let him do it again.
Do you agree with me then that Sturgeon loves to see men being ‘castrated’ hence her obsession with self-id.
She’s probably not that keen on ‘baby makers’ either but as yet I haven’t looked too closely at that possibility.
Sufficient to say that ‘Sturgeon loves Sturgeon’!
I’m a bit restricted what I can say about Sturgeon due to warning about bad language.
She’s a one!
She is isn’t she?
PS I have an ISD I have no need to go looking in anyone’s pants.
I have just read a very-funny piece by Marina Hyde, in The Guardian, in which she destroys the contenders to replace The Convict as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
Just got me thinking, where would we find a working Scottish journalist, and a Scottish newspaper willing to publish it, to do a piece on who might become First Minister of Scotland, should the present office-bearer fall under a tram while crossing Princes Street?
Should any unfortunate event befall our Great Leader, just who would take over? I fear, like the Conservative and Unionist Party, the Scottish National Party is somewhat short of talent in its upper echelons.
Viz
Does the Modern Parents still have a strip? 😀
Lolz at Bin Liner..
Ooh, talk of The Bottom Inspectors reminds me I’ve still got to get that stool sample sent off, and thus furnish the State (and whoever they sell it on to) with more data for the Scots Greatest Shits album.
On a serious note, I understand Scotland starts bowel cancer screening at 50 rather than 60 elsewhere in UK. It’s well worth taking the opportunity to get tested as a relation who lives in England missed out on early diagnosis which unfortunately had far more serious and complex treatment and prognosis outcomes.
@ Socrates MacSporran: good to see you btl again. What was that you were saying a few years ago about our Great Leader’s uncle?
As for a dearth of talent, also of principles and decency, in the upper echelons of the SNP, you are right, I fear.
There is Joanna Cherry – she has brains, strength of character, personality, principles and decency BUT does not seem to want to seize the moment and push on to escape the Union right now.
Douglas Chapman I know less about but he seems principled, intelligent and decent. Angus Brendan MacNeil has been permanently in the firing line for some years as he has argued for Plan B. Philippa Whitford?
All the above are MPs. In Holyrood I had hopes for Kate Forbes but she hasn’t yet shown any public difference of opinion with the clique – though may have done so in private e.g. over the Lamont amendment. Might Jim Fairlie as a new boy be untainted?
Breeks @ 2.17
The fact that so many people living in England supported Boris Johnson shows just what lack of judgement they have.
The fact that so many people living in Scotland support Nicola Sturgeon shows that…..if they lived in England they would be Boris Johnson supporters.
Republicofscotland says: 8 July, 2022 at 10:34 am
News articles claim the gunman said he carried the act out because Abe was a member of an “organisation” he disagreed with.
I wonder if this is what he meant?
https://www.tokyoreporter.com/crime/yakuza/ex-pm-shinzo-abe-denies-ties-to-yakuza-after-photo-with-yamaguchi-gumi-associate-published/
According to this link, the Liberal Democratic party which Abe belonged to was financed at the beginning by the CIA and had support from the Yakuza:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Kodama#Political_fixer
It’s all speculation of course.
I couldn’t believe it though when I had read that as Japan has such a low crime rate.
.
Stu.,
It’s a strange old world..
I was reading your article on the people that Wings and it’s readers have supported over the years…
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-backstabbers/comment-page-1/
A bit shocked to see your sorrow at Ken McDonald cancelling your stroke-surviving dad’s subscription.
Not sure what your belief system is and whether there is a small spot to park a bit of Karma, but seems the Universe has bit someone in the behind with sharp teeth for cancelling your Dad’s subscription. The fine-print says so…
https://www.iscot.scot/crowdfunder-2022/
All the goodwill and intelligent debate along with enthusiasm in Scotland for our indyRef1 now seems a different world away.
So very, very sad.
@ sarah
Re. Are there any good eggs left in the SNP. Well I understood there may have been a small number that may have switched to Alba but stuck with SNP as a means to get elected what with the Scottish Parliament voting system. But if there are sleepers then they are in a really really deep sleep and you wonder just what it would take to wake them up.
Jim Fairlie Jr, presumably with being involved in farming probably has a rudimentary understanding of basic biology. But if he has drunk from the mind-bending genderwoowoo elixir vessel he could solve the male calf / veal trade issue issue and just get said bro calves to identify as female and get em hooked up to milking machines. (Not sure I’d wanted drink the “milk” from them though…)
FYI there’s devastation in my veg garden as yet more fucking deer are back and have devoured every single beetroot plant. 🙁
Socrates, I nipped over to read her thanks to you – I love her writing and that of John Crace, add the cartoonists and I’m a happy bunny!
What’s Mr Cairns getting up to these days?
Pacman.
I had Shinzo Abe pegged as US puppet so I’m not surprised, mind you Abe must’ve had some imperialist ambitions for Japan smouldering underneath his US compliant outer facade, he visited the Yasukuni Shrine on a few occasions, which secretly would’ve pissed off Washington.
Merganser says:
8 July, 2022 at 5:07 pm
Breeks @ 2.17
The fact that so many people living in England supported Boris Johnson shows just what lack of judgement they have.
The fact that so many people living in Scotland support Nicola Sturgeon shows that…..if they lived in England they would be Boris Johnson supporters.
Independence supporters in Scotland don’t have a great deal of choice.
Sturgeon’s mandate for the ‘pseudo indyref’ states only a vote for the SNP counts as a YES. The choice then will be either you vote SNP or ‘NO Thanks’
Voters in England have three main parties to choose from plus all the other smaller parties.
Most just offering the same thing. We don’t have that luxury.
Geri says:
8 July, 2022 at 4:26 pm
Viz
Does the Modern Parents still have a strip? ?
Lolz at Bin Liner..
It turns out I wasn’t the only one that noticed the political correcting of Viz.
Living Marxism until it was sued for libel and lostSp!ked had a bit about just this in January.https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/01/11/how-viz-lost-its-teeth
Had forgotten about Fordell’s other two big strips, The Critics and Ferdinand The Foodie, which would certainly have not gone down well with the Scott Trust wankers as too close to home.
There was a Critics one where they drive a naive writer from a working class background who has come to acclaim somewhat later in the day to suicide because he won’t have sex with them after a cheese and wine, so they get all their friends in the press to write relentless libellous rubbish about him. Once he’d dead they buy up the rights to his estate and make a fortune out of repackaging it as the work of a “tortured genius”, because death is always the great artistic career move. It was apparantly an OTT parody of the treatment James Kelman got from the London set when he refused to play their game and adopt the “noble savage” persona anyone north of Hatfield’s supposed to do if they make it.
“The Modern Parents” may have fallen foul because Tarquin’s younger brother Gwyn was occasionally forced to wear a dress (as was Tarquin) to discover his “feminine” side, whether he wanted to or not. Considering the probs the comic had with swearing on the cover, no way would WH Smiths (who now have much of the high street printed press market by the hairies …) dare stock a strip with that or there would be a triggered flashmob outside every store before 24 hours had passed.
Dan says:
8 July, 2022 at 5:53 pm
@ sarah
Re. Are there any good eggs left in the SNP
I’m counting the guy who leaked the video of Blackford as a good guy. I don’t know who it is but it does give me a glimmer of hope.
Hi Ian Brotherhood at 3:27 pm.
You pasted,
“‘Imagine if your name was Mike Hunt?
How embarrassing would that be?!
Michael Cunt‘”
Around 20 years ago (dial-up days), one of my usernames on the DC Thomson 3Js chat forum was “Michael Hawke”.
Onnyhoo, I found doing this quiz was QI.
https://reference.medscape.com/viewarticle/975835?src=WNL_fastquiz_220708_MSCPEDIT&uac=213066SX&impID=4404239
Here’s a quote from one of the pages…
“According to the DSM-5, a diagnosis of NPD [Narcissistic Personality Disorder] requires five of the following nine criteria:
A belief that they are unique or special and can only associate with and be understood by others like them, such as people or institutions with high status that are special
A grandiose sense of self-importance
A lack of empathy
A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited beauty, brilliance, power, success, or ideal love
A sense of entitlement
A need for excessive admiration
Interpersonally exploitative behavior
Envy of others or a belief that others envy them
Arrogant and haughty attitudes or behaviors”
Does that make you think of anyone?
@ Al Stuart 5.42 pm
All the goodwill and intelligent debate along with enthusiasm in Scotland for our indyRef1 now seems a different world away.
So very, very sad.
I wonder if plebiscitary elections mean that the “big tent” isn’t as relevant as it was? Perhaps the secret of indyref1 was that, to use the cliche, it was “all eyes on the prize”? Folk could stand shoulder to shoulder and campaign together even if they disagreed about particular policy areas and “suspend disbelief” if the other folks turned out to be a bit out there.
The passage of time (and soooooo much time too….!) and the control freakery of the SNP seems to have helped poison the well. Can you really see some of the SNP types who have been othering people in their own party, never mind in other parties, actually co-operating? They’re more likely to bury the hatchet in our backs!
The issue for the movement is the dominance of the SNP: there was always danger in having all our eggs in one basket, and so the past 7 years have shown. Like others, I doubt there are any other alternative voices left in the SNP: those who had the get up and go have largely got up and went. Cherry and the few of principle like her left in the SNP are probably too isolated to do much but watch the SNP (hopefully) gradually disintegrate.
I don’t set much store by the protestations the SNP and Greens are going to play nice for the greater good of the movement and some putative Yes Alliance.
@BDTT (7.16) –
Ermm…well…nah…give me a clue…
😉
Much as I will need to hold my nose I will vote SNP if I must but only in this election.
Thereafter they can whistle.
@Andy Ellis (8.10) –
Agreed.
Which is why I was so critical of AUOB t’other day.
Many of us are feeling glum and perhaps even a bit hopeless (and even more so since Nicola’s grand announcement) but there’s a limit to how ‘half-full’ anyone can make the glass appear.
Trying to co-opt folk by putting the word ‘All’ in front of ‘whatever’ may feel inspirational for some but to others, it’s just a form of emotional exploitation. Not pointing any fingers here but the guilty know who they are.
@Shug 8.18 pm
Much as I will need to hold my nose I will vote SNP if I must but only in this election.
Thereafter they can whistle.
I’m still not sure how the SNP can engineer a situation in a plebiscitary election where only votes for them “count” towards the total yes vote? From what Patrick Harvie said they can’t stop local Green CP’s standing candidates even if there was some for of Yes Alliance.
I think a lot of people will find it hard to vote for the SNP, particularly a lot of women horrified at their misogyny WRT to GRA and TRA’s in their leadership. I’m not sure who is going to accept the SNP – or anyone else – trying to dictate what vote does and does not count.
“I’m still not sure how the SNP can engineer a situation in a plebiscitary election where only votes for them “count” towards the total yes vote?”
What’s good for the goose is also good for the gander.
From Yours For Scotland.
“Successive England as the UK governments since 2015 have governed Scotland on less than 30% of the vote. The tories invoked A50 dragging Scotland out of the treaty of union with the EU even after Scotland voted to remain on in by 62%. The tories invoked A50 when they held less than 15% of Scotland’s vote and only one MP. Yes, you read it right. Scotland was dragged out of the Treaty of union with the EU on the “super-democracy standards” of just ONE tory MP and the UK government party holding the mandate of just 14.9% of the Scottish vote. That is why now foisting on us the demands over 50% of the vote for pro-indy parties in Scotland in a UK general election to exit the Treaty of union with England feels so unfair, so hypocritical, so wrong and comes across as the new obstacle Sturgeon has found to continue frustrating independence.”
Scots should not stand for another George Cunningham scenario that was used in 1979.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/07/08/votes-or-seats-and-what-could-happen-next/
@Andy Ellis 8 35pm
Agreed. And when you factor in what’s happening on the local scene no chance of a plebiscite election. I have to say I have been totally impressed by Lady Poole. Genuinely trying to make pandemic plans more resilient. The 1 billion pound decision on December 2021 was a gratuitous abuse of power by Sturgeon. Catching up with her. Despite the 250 million in legal fees to keep her out of public scrutiny. Unfortunately for her we have the evidence she based her decision on. Thousands of people died and Thousands of businesses went under. A day of reckoning looms.
I definitely do not think we should accept a ‘plebiscitary election’
The SNP manifesto can just state a vote for us is a vote for independence.
Vote SNP for independence.
Anyone think they won’t do that?
Remember the Holyrood election. Vote SNP 1 & 2
Anyone noticed how much the SNP hate Alba?
It’ll be in the SNP manifesto so there is nothing any other party can do about it.
I suppose the other parties can say vote Alba/Green for independence but unless they gain power at Holyrood their vote won’t count.
That’s how I see it. I hope those who are so keen on a ‘plebiscitary election’ know something different.
@George Ferguson 9.01 pm
I’d like to think a day of reckoning looms: here’s hoping eh?
Some folk seem determined to make it more complex than it needs to be, diving down Treaty of Union rabbit holes and constructing ever more fanciful plans for things that are as likely to happen as Sturgeon publicly slapping down the TRA’s and inviting LGB Alliance and Joanna Cherry to Bute House for afternoon tea and a fulsome apology.
Who knows, maybe over the next few years more folk will come to their senses?
@Andy Ellis 9 24pm
A day of reckoning is a definite. It’s too late for Sturgeon just like Boris she is not reading the runes. She will be dragged out of Bute House kicking and screaming. God bless Lady Poole and not the Scottish Broadcast Media. They have been absent without leave.
@George Ferguson (9.01) –
‘A day of reckoning looms.’
Yes. Exactly this.
She doesn’t want it to happen, obvs.
Alex Salmond, for reasons best known to himself, doesn’t want it to happen otherwise he would’ve ‘taken her down’ long before now. And even Craig Murray doesn’t want it to happen (yet) – we all have to heave together in this latest drive for a second referendum because, er, well, she stuck a pin in the calendar.
This is where the fundamental schism lies, and she knows it. Whoever’s advising Sturgeon (and we must assume that she’s not winging it solo) has calculated that the cost of letting us all down yet again is less than the damage done to them personally. They may have pulled off an absolute blinder. (When I say ‘they’ I’m imagining Swinney, Murrell, Wolffe, the Alphabetties etc) But they may also have been emboldened by the outcome of the Harassment Inquiry and feel that this is a mere bagatelle in comparison. (Let’s face it – if you could get away with something like that, you would feel pretty unassailable, right?)
What if they haven’t taken into account Sturgeon’s stock with the electorate *since* then? We all know a lot more about her since the bug arrived, since she shifted into Great Leader mode. And it’s not pretty.
The numbers attending independence marches may be down, but that doesn’t really matter right now because we have nothing solid to march for. But what each and every one of those marchers have in common is the pain of the covid years under this government. I’m not going to retread the many arguments we had right here over the fuckin thing right from the start. There has never been a more acrimonious topic on WOS, and god only knows we’ve had a few. But regardless of the bug’s source, the timing/severity of lockdowns, the vaccine ingredients, side effects, the msm treatment of it all, there is one thing which every citizen of Scotland has questions about – her handling of it all. She made it *her* lockdown, *her* decision, *her* pain, *her* heart singing when she heard that the weans would be jagged. It all helped bolster the wartime leader persona she so clearly relished.
And that’s why, if she is found ‘guilty’ of anything in relation to the Scotgov handling of that crisis, she has to own it. No excuses, no ‘inquiries’, no deflections, and most certainly no Tory-blaming. She will have to stand down immediately. Then, and only then, with her out of the way, can we seriously campaign for that second referendum. (It can’t happen next year anyway, for reasons which Rev has outlined repeatedly.) But having a date to aim for is less important than knowing she is no longer present in public life. Hopefully, she will, in time, see the inside of Cornton Vale, but that’s not up to us. What is up to us is to ensure that we are no longer taken for a ride by those who’ve been her Praetorian Guard for the past decade or more. We already know some of the names, but many more will emerge in the years ahead and we can be sure that some will be surprising.
There was a time when it seemed that Sturgeon, although always rather stern-looking anyway, had a good ‘poker face’, especially for dealing with Tories. Now? she just looks permanently unhinged, angry, fearful, defensive. And that’s when Tories are no real threat to her job!
She’s calmed some of the troops now by giving them the date. Aye, okay. But she knows that another winter lies between now and then.
Would any of you, right now, bet against lockdown/mask-wearing/food rationing/travel bans/curfews etc etc before the start of 2023?
A referendum date will be the last of our worries.
So, George, let’s have that day of reckoning. The sooner the better.
😉
George Ferguson says:
8 July, 2022 at 9:42 pm
@Andy Ellis 9 24pm
A day of reckoning is a definite. It’s too late for Sturgeon just like Boris she is not reading the runes. She will be dragged out of Bute House kicking and screaming. God bless Lady Poole and not the Scottish Broadcast Media. They have been absent without leave.
Boris resigning will make zero difference to us in Scotland. Same would apply to Sturgeon resigning. Angus Robertson would just replace her.
We need rid of the SNP and the only way we can do that is through independence. We are in a very tricky situation because THE SNP DO NOT WANT INDEPENDENCE.
Look, it’s always been simple.
A majority of MPs from Scotland, voted in on a manifesto of “A majority of Scottish MPs elected, who will declare independence, means we (Scots) have a right to declare independence”, means we become independent.
That’s been the situation for decades.
All this crap about a majority of the vote is just crap. In a parliamentary system, which the UK has, It’s the majority of MPs that counts, not the popular vote.
Mark.
Viz was ahead of it time 😀 Shame it’s watered down. It has an abundance of pish to rip they’d not know where to start. Taking the piss out the woowoo new age/modern parents wouldn’t be a flash mob – it’d be all the Tarquins out there finally conditioned wearing a pastel frock & sporting a fetching floral *vest*
Al- Stuart re iScot – he was getting trigger happy on Twitter. I guess that eventually caught up in the coffers.
Brian re disorders – look Borderline criteria too. Copy, mimic, take on others traits & share the same goals & ideas until they’re no longer needed to advance them any further then the face slips fae them. Classic you know who. I read an older page of Wings where Craig Murray had asked why Salmond didn’t spot it sooner. Probably for those reasons. She was a mini-me of him at the time & the rest of us fell for it too. Hypnotised for the first few years 2017/18 before the face was starting to slip.Indy should’ve nipped her in the bud in 2017 after those disastrous GE results & her refusing to utter the dirty word known as independence. Didn’t she even forbid it mentioned at conference? An Indy party with no mention of indy allowed.
@Ian Brotherhood 9 53pm
The day of reckoning is coming believe it. An example Boris had the same information and data as Sturgeon prior to Christmas week 2021. The difference. Boris decides to believe the data in front of him. Granted it was Tory back benches that persuaded him. He doesn’t deserve any credit for that. Compare that to back benches in Holyrood. We have a nodding donkey Parliament. They are culpable for the 1 billion lost to Scottish businesses. So we had a 1 billion virtual lockdown meaning it was a lockdown in all but name. Surely ligitation will follow. Lady Poole has restored my confidence in Scottish Institutions. We need more of that. From a principled Independence supporter.
Andy Ellis @ 9.24
‘Who knows…..Come to their senses’
Well, that I can agree with.
When (if) the (so-called) plebiscitary election (de facto referendum – not ) is held and fails to get enough votes, Sturgeon always has the fall back of quoting her argument to the Supreme Court: ‘ As a matter of law, if it had gone our way the legal effect would have been nil anyway, so we have lost nothing. (Sotto Voce: But thanks for voting us in for another term of office).’
The whole thing is a con. Doomed to success for the SNP as Ruby says
& she had a face like fizz when Cherry took to the stage to standing ovation & endless applause while some tosser tried to get her off the stage. She was spitting feathers over the currency issue being rejected too.
It’s her way or no way & any upcoming leader is to be mothballed.
@ Dan at 5.53: “sleepers” in SNP – on second thoughts I was too optimistic in thinking there may be 2 honest SNP MSPs.
As you say, they have kept so quiet through all the transparently criminal and corrupt and dictatorial shenanigans in the party and Scot gov since 2015 that they are either spineless or tainted. I remember that there were supposedly a few who wanted to move to Alba but Alex told them to hold on – but that was 18 months ago. They should have done something by now.
Condolences about your deer-ravaged beetroot. I remember that your winter subsistence depends heavily on beetroot. Is there time for a new sowing? And what about your fencing? I have sheep fencing – to make it deerproof I have stuck light but tall pieces of paling or tree trimmings/raspberry canes into the wire and linked them with rope. The theory is that a deer won’t want to jump through something. So far we have had no further incursions but that could be because they have better places to feed at this time of year. There is little in my veg garden as I am very behind in sowing.
@George Ferguson (9.01) –
‘Thousands of people died and Thousands of businesses went under.’
If you haven’t already seen this, you may find it interesting, especially at approx 21 mins, where he addresses your point directly.
https://rumble.com/v18mtl9-grand-jury-final-statement-vax-premeditated-depopulation-dr.-reiner-fuellmi.html
I’m not sure I follow what is being argued here in regards to the handling of covid. On one hand there’s criticism on the basis of the high death toll, on the other there’s more than a hint that our great leader was overly cautious and took us into lockdown too early.
Without a more nuanced explanation, it would seem contradictory to argue both of those things at the same time.
Brotherhood asks about the chances of us going into lockdown again before 2023. I’m afraid that it’s now highly likely, possibly sooner than you think… Current data suggests these new variants, unlike omicron, are hitting the respiratory system and lungs hard. Hospitalisations etc. are going to rise again in the next few weeks, probably quite dramatically.
Reinfection rates suggest immunity conferred by the vaccines as well as natural immunity from prior infection are not going to stop you catching the new variants. Actually, from what I can gather, neither of them provide any protection really — although it is hoped they might mitigate against serious infection blah blah blah…
I take no pleasure in telling you all that the outlook is rather bleak.
@Breastplate says:8 July, 2022 at 10:40 am
“I suppose being militaristic in nature it’s comforting to become exercised about certain contrary points of view because your emotionally wedded to an opposing idea, to the extent you will deny reality.”
TBH, I am not really following your narrative.
As I see things, the first duty of the government of any nation is to protect the people of that nation from internal and external threats that damage their interests and prospects. That obviously covers a wide spectrum, from spurious environmental dogma that will leave people frozen in winter, to God-bothering megalomaniacs who see their destiny in starting and winning WW3.
It is hard to debate these ultimately simple concepts with people whose own denial of reality has them believing that national borders are an abomination, to give but one example. Or that the people who choose to work, should also carry on their shoulders the significant set of people who choose not to work, but expect the same standard of living as those who do.
Scots Indy has historically given birth to some loony concepts, and they are a long time in the dying. One of them is that an Independent Scotland will be uniquely special and just “nice”. Indeed, so well-beloved will we be, that we won’t need any of the nasty things that other bad, old countries rely on, like armies, strategic alliances, promoted interests, or messy compromises.
And another one is that we will all enjoy a high standard of living (Nordic is frequently used to describe it), cheap energy, low living costs, whilst needing no plans for reliable energy security, agricultural self-sufficiency, first-world educational establishments, or smokestack manufacturing.
The people denying reality are the people peddling this kind of utopian shit.
@Hatuey 11:49
You can renew your calls for the most extreme sanctions against those who don’t play ball, should your projections come true.
Up to and including death, as I recall.
@Hatuey 11 49pm
So why don’t we wait on the findings of the Scottish Covid Public Inquiry? If you think everyone else is a an Internettie nutter. There was a high death toll initally because of the actions of the Scottish Government. There has been serious damage to business and consequential health outcomes subsequently. I remember having an exchange with you about the saviour variant prior to the Christmas 2021. Apparently lost on you.
Actually, George, I can recall exactly where I stood on the omicron outbreak in the run up to Christmas. I was tracking it carefully and once it hit Europe, Denmark was ahead for some reason, it became clear that it was milder than other strains.
I’ve noticed you have a high opinion of Poole and are optimistic about the inquiry generally. I’m not. Then, I took the time to read the terms of reference and the interpretation of those terms — you might want to look at that and get back to me… let me know if you require a link.
Anyway, rest assured, there will be no prosecutions. You can rule that out completely. And they’ve limited the scope to Scottish matters which is odd in light of the fact that our handling was basically dictated by UKGov and only implemented by ScotGov.
Zzzzzzzzzzzz. I know.
John Main,
My dad used to say “Utopia is a destination we’ll never reach but we should all make the journey”.
Nothing wrong with setting the bar high.
Regarding countries acting in their own interest, I agree with you 100%.
Who decides what those interests are is incredibly important because you can be sure different groups of people want different things.
I find nothing wrong with cooperating with countries, organisations or institutions if it’s to our country’s benefit but that leads us again to who decides what the benefits are?
So I agree with you on some things and disagree on others.
Scotland won’t be a utopia from the get-go. It won’t be instant manna from heaven.
What it would be is better managed by elected representatives answerable to Scotland & if they turn out to be zoomers full of shit then they can be ejected & replaced.
Scotlands problems starts with enforced poverty & all else follows from there..
A divorce is needed to break the cycle before we can adopt other countries best practices – excluding England’s *free work will set you free*
“Scotlands problems starts with enforced poverty & all else follows from there…”
That’s correct. Endemic poverty is the biggest problem Scotland suffers, and is intrinsically linked and indeed a consequence of Scotland’s subservient role within the UK Union.
Poverty is an inevitable consequence of a country being fleeced, with the economy oriented towards wealth and resource extraction rather than development.
A child would understand all that but they have intentionally complicated the subject using concoctions of propaganda, lies, and “fuzzy math”, making it virtually impossible to assess or discuss the situation without getting embroiled in bullshit.
Another important complicating factor, of course, is the poverty itself which distracts people, causes social mayhem, and (according to science) stunts intellectual capacity.
All that in a country that should be one of the most prosperous on the planet.
The odd thing is, I’ve never seen so many Union Jacks flying in Scotland, especially in notoriously poor areas like Lanark and parts of Ayrshire; and I can’t help but wonder what sort of irrational satisfaction people get from these flags when they look up at them from prison-like poverty they live in.
Regarding what votes we need in our progress towards an independent Scotland, it might be worth reading or re-reading Craig Murray’s article.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/01/westminster-cannot-block-scottish-independence/
India seized independence because in the post war period England could no longer put up with the admin. hassle. Of course, as in Ireland, they set the stage for internecine conflict.
When liberation day comes England may also do some «stage setting», Orkney, Shetland, the Borderlands…
Stalin dealt with the ethnicity problem by first dividing and then establishing republics named after a majority but with sufficient minorities to provoke communal friction thus offering little opportunity for secession, the root of the current East European proxy war.
The British in Raj India, who had little understanding or love for Hindus, schmoozed the Muslims with the result we have today.
Stalin and the Brit imperialists thought alike. Both loved lines in sand designs..good for the
MidEast, good for Africa, good for all occasions.
Were a child of the Brit colonial legacy to become UK pm and play the little englander regarding our independence, such sublime irony, such an opportunity to make much mischief.
All this crap about a majority of the vote is just crap. In a parliamentary system, which the UK has, It’s the majority of MPs that counts, not the popular vote.
Regarding what votes we need in our progress towards an independent Scotland, it might be worth reading or re-reading Craig Murray’s article.
I see the denial of reality is still strong amongst some of the usual suspects in here in relation to “seats versus votes” issue. Craig Murray’s piece referred to above has some interesting and important information. As he rightly notes independence is NOT a matter of domestic law, it’s a matter of international law. The process of being recognised as an independent state however rests on convincing other already independent states that you meet the criteria for statehood.
Those criteria will vary from case to case. Craig implicitly recognises this in his article – though I think he draws the wrong conclusions. The cases of Kosovo and Catalonia were not the same, and neither of them were the same as (say) the Baltic States. Scotland’s case is different again. All of them are and will be judged on their own merits.
International law is (purposefully?) vague on many of the matters involved, and there are few if any precedents as the Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) suggested in its response to the 3 questions put to it by the Federal Government. Thus self determination is a right, but it is neither automatic or unlimited. What constitutes a “people” is not defined, even though few if any would argue Scots don’t qualify as such. In the context of referendums, what constitutes a sufficient majority is disputed, or a “clear” question.
The reason the SCC refused to be drawn on such matters – which may well be similar for the UK SC and for the international community as whole in situations of disagreement as was seen in Kosovo – is that they regard the answers to such questions as a matter of politics, not law.
In Scotland’s situation, anyone clinging to the quaint and misguided belief that independence will be gained without a clear majority voting for it, in response to a clear mandate aren’t fooling anyone but themselves. We can talk about process, timings and how we bring about the vote until the cows come home.
In the end all the airy-fairy cunning plans focusing on declaring independence based on a majority of seats, or self actualising assemblies or conventions, will hit the brick wall of reality when the international community asks for proof of our mandate and majority.
Hatuey @ 4:11 am
“I can’t help but wonder what sort of irrational satisfaction people get from these flags when they look up at them from prison-like poverty they live in.”
An oppressed people may suffer from Appropriated Racial Oppression (ARO), or what we might loosely term the ‘Scottish Cultural Cringe’, which is an outcome of Cultural Imperialism and colonialism. It is possible to measure for high levels of ARO that are embedded in a society, which would seem to reflect the phenomenon in question, and the high incidence of a particular ethnic group voting against their own liberation from oppression, even celebrating it. In other words, much of the ethnic Scots ‘No’ vote arguably reflects this psychological condition, as demonstrated by how difficult it is to alter such a (colonial) mindset.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/determinants-of-independence-ethnicity/
ANDY ELLIS
If it were not for the fact that the Soviets created a «Greater Ukrain» and extended the border in 1954 to include Russophone/Tatar Crimea and post ww2 wangled a UN seat for it is unlikely it would fulfill the criteria for statehood. Ukrain is yet another line in the sand creature.
However, ethnic Ukrainians as well as Bosnians, Kosovans, North Cyprus Turks, Kurds, my Syriac/Assyrian nation
do consider themselves «a people» worthy of autonomy of some kind.
International law, a mash up of legal postulates, put together by the major powers is not kind to those who would secede from «established» legal constructs.
Were the majority to be found for dissolving the Union, powerful forces exist out there which would not look favourably on such. Getting the approval of the power brokers in the international community could be a very long haul. The volatility of world politics does not help.
In the end you are on your own in such matters. That takes a powerful shot of political willpower.
We need Boris Johnson to hang on, or at least attempt to hang on as PM, which might happen, and according to Labour’s Angela Rayner if that happens Labour will call for a vote of no confidence in the government.
It then relies on a bit of luck, that Labour, the Lib/Dems the Greens and even the SNP will join that no vote of confidence along with the disgruntled Tories within the party that resigned or expressed a lack of confidence in Johnson as their leader.
I’d be hoping that Johnson or the opposition would then try and call for a GE, which for us would bypass the possibility of a poorly organised (in which yes would lose) indyref, we’d skip that completely saving at last a year and go straight to the GE, which again I’d hope that Sturgeon would be screaming for it to be a plebiscitary one on Scotland dissolving the union.
The problem is that the Tories will have also worked out all the scenarios on Johnson’s tenure teetering on the edge. I would also expect some sort of legal challenge from Westminster on holding a plebiscitary GE.
Once again Westminster is in turmoil, lets see what our supposedly independence party does (SNP) to capitalise on it not for their own gain for a change, which is the norm now, but to get Scotland out of this union.
Never mind the Free Beer. It’s Saturday, where’s Cairns cartoon?
Pick up the phone, Rev.
Emma Cowling in the Fascist Mail telling us all about how much Boris actually loved Scotland
Strange how he called Scot a Verminous Race, how he would put Scots in a Ghetto and eliminate us, or why he would always invest a pound in England before Scotland.
Yes of course this narcissist loved Scotland he would Weald all controlling power over us and rob us blind to give to the filthy rich.
The rag has absolutely no relationship with reality it just pumps out right wing propaganda for a living.
ALF BAIRD 09:59
The empire was good for us…an «anglo-indian» viewpoint.
https://archive.ph/XAEvr
Enough of this drip feed and the jewel is back in the crown.
The ethnic element in British politics, Sunak, Javid, Sarwar inter alia adheres to this rosy view.
A excellent comment from Professor Alf Baird, with a plebiscitary GE in mind.
“The matter seems relatively straightforward. As Scots are already and always a sovereign people and country functioning within a treaty-based alliance then it must be the case that a majority of Scotland’s elected national MP’s represent that sovereignty and they may lawfully withdraw Scotland from the treaty-based alliance.
A Scottish court would be expected to confirm this should the matter be contested. Lets remember here that Scots Law itself only still exists because of the self-same treaty articles, as does the Claim of Right and Scotland’s Constitution. All key elements are bound together in the same treaty.
If a Scottish court were then to confirm that a majority of Scotland’s MP’s may lawfully withdraw Scotland from the UK treaty-based alliance, as would be expected, then Scotland is effectively an independent state again and the UK is at an end. This would also imply that Scotland is already de facto independent.
However, if a Scottish court for some reason rejected independence via withdrawal by Scotland’s MPs then this means that Scots are not sovereign, and hence sovereignty over Scotland is therefore held primarily by England’s near 500 MPs.
The International Court of justice may then be asked to give an opinion on the matter. If the ICJ finds in favour of Scotland then this means Scotland’s MP’s may lawfully withdraw Scotland from the UK treaty-based alliance.
If the ICJ finds against independence then Scotland may be Listed with the UN Decolonization Committee C-24 as a colony with the aim to bring about Scotland’s decolonization and end ‘the scourge of colonisation’. In the latter event Scots should be conscious that there would be no ‘unionists’ in our midst, only colonists.
The SNP’s S.30 blind alley is merely another (arguably much weaker and riskier) option for independence. The SNP could and should pull the plug on the union now via their elected majorities and if they were really nationalists they would have done so given election of three successive nationalist majorities and numerous violations to the treaty as well as the ongoing suffering, oppression and exploitation of the Scottish people.”
” Once again Westminster is in turmoil, lets see what our supposedly independence party does (SNP) to capitalise on it not for their own gain for a change, which is the norm now, but to get Scotland out of this union.”
FUCK ALL would be my guess .
They’ll just use whatever c..t is selected to continue the work of destroying the remaining vestiges of civilised political mores in the UK and strangling any ” request ” for a sanctioned Indy Ref as blame fodder for their own cowardice and complicity in the surreal Idiotocracy than is WM/Union * culture *
“A excellent comment from Professor Alf Baird, with a plebiscitary GE in mind.
“The matter seems relatively straightforward. As Scots are already and always a sovereign people and country functioning within a treaty-based alliance then it must be the case that a majority of Scotland’s elected national MP’s represent that sovereignty and they may lawfully withdraw Scotland from the treaty-based alliance.”
It boggles my mind that anyone with an IQ over 12 is still trying to punt the “majority of MPs” line. It’s just staggeringly idiotic. You can get a majority of MPs with about 30% of the vote. If anyone thinks 30% of the vote is either (a) a legitimate democratic mandate for independence, or (b) anything the international community would even for a single microsecond consider grounds for recognition of independence, they need their fucking head felt.
Just watched Sara Salyers closing speech on what SALVO hope to do next re the COR on Yours For Scotland , I notice that you have said nothing about this Stuart or the recent upsurge in support for this popular route
As the most popular, most frequently read , biggest supporting blog by real independence supporters , most truthful and controversial blog , SURELY you have views on the possible advantages of this route and the disadvantages, also the possibility or impossibility of this route
Normally you would either be expressing your support or denigrating or exposing what you would consider stupidity , your silence on the matter is strange
“REV STU,
All my comments have the moderation heading above them, as I have never swore on this site, nor name called anyone, nor mentioned the ABCs, nor named a certain unmentionable country, nor lost respect for your advise you have given, and have been posting here for years I am wondering why only my comments ? have this heading above them.”
Because you changed your login details the system thinks you’re a new user.
@Rev (11.56) –
Before deciding whether or not we owe any allegiance to, or should be cowed by ‘the international community’ we have to know what it is. We need a definition.
This link contains three definitions by people who should know what they’re talking about. And they don’t agree.
‘What Is the International Community?’
https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/fp/fp_sepoct02_ank01.html
The perverse thing about democracy is that occasionally authoritarian action, elite initiative rather than popular, is needed as a kickstart to make it «work».
The realignment of the sclerotic Soviet bloc offers examples of the sort where old system powers were used to promote a new more accountable system.
Scotland is at that stage in the sclerotic UK.
Such audacity will only come from a body prepared to take risks in pursuit of the end.
Tolerance of clogged arteries does not make for a healthy body politic.
Ian Brotherhood says:
9 July, 2022 at 12:35 pm
@Rev (11.56) –
Before deciding whether or not we owe any allegiance to, or should be cowed by ‘the international community’ we have to know what it is. We need a definition.
This link contains three definitions by people who should know what they’re talking about. And they don’t agree.
‘What Is the International Community?’
https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/fp/fp_sepoct02_ank01.html
Oh good grief.
Coming next from Mr Brotherhood, three Youtube videos of angels dancing on the head of a pin.
Of course a recognition that over 50% of the population want independence is required. This is a no-brainer, and the idea that some sort of FPTP majority of MPs would lead to any meaningful form of independence is ludicrous.
Andy Ellis isn’t the only one who is in contact with powerful people. Over the last few weeks I’ve been working on establishing relations with a UK Government in a parallel universe and they have conveniently made an announcement on the Votes v Seats issue.
Note that in this parallel universe, the SNP has been consistently winning a majority of votes but not a majority of seats. Parliamentary democracy often creates these sort of situations, it’s very common.
Anyway, here’s the announcement;
“We understand why the SNP wants to put emphasis on its share of the vote but in a parliamentary system it’s seats that determine outcomes of elections. In any proposed “single issue” referendum, that same standard would apply — with the number of seats determining the winner, not the number of votes.
“We would point out that this is the system that the SNP itself favoured and accepted until recently, as did former PM Mrs. Thatcher, and that nobody anywhere considered it controversial to suggest Scottish independence could be achieved by the SNP winning a majority of seats in Scotland in a UK General Election.”
@Ottomanboi 10.06 am
No serious academic or any reasonably educated lay person accepts the argument that the country that shall not be named isn’t a “real” country. The reason the USSR managed to wangle 3 seats at the UN in the late 40’s was as a quid pro quo for “allowing” a slew of South American dictatorships who had been pro German during WW2 to join, after they all suddenly became – publicly at least – anti-nazi in 1945.
Sadly, there’s many a slip between lip and cup with respect to which peoples assert their right to statehood and which achieve it. No reasonable person can really deny that the Kurds – the largest stateless people in the world I seem to recall – should be entitled to their own state. The problem is convincing the Iraqi, Iranian, Syrian and Turkish states to agree.
Similarly with the state that shall not be named and the Crimea. It’s all very well to come out with Kremlin agitprop and playbook talking points, but the situation is rarely as simple as partisans on both sides would like to suggest. Russophone majorities in many areas were specifically engineered – often in relatively recent history. Similarly, the Crimea was rendered more russophone by the simple expedient of mass expulsions of Tatars to central Asia, and ethnic Greeks to Donetsk oblast and other places further east.
Inconveniently for Vlad and his mates, the principle of territorial integrity applies to newly independent countries, just as it does to all others. That’s why few countries accept the annexation of the Crimea as legal, or that the pretendy People’s Republics have any validity, or Transnistria or South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Indeed, Vlad might find that using such places as Trojan horses to further irredentist aims is a two edged sword. There are lots of peoples in his Federation that will probably welcome the current weakening of his regime.
To an extent you are right: the international community is inherently conservative with a small “c” and doesn’t exactly relish dealing with issues of self determination, particularly as historically they’ve mostly been messy, violent and involved ethnic cleansing, civil war or war between neighbouring states.
As to your statement:
In the end you are on your own in such matters. That takes a powerful shot of political willpower.
I tend to agree, and have my doubts such willpower is much in evidence in the leadership of our movement at present. Unlike many other situations however, Scotland is almost uniquely placed to achieve independence non-violently and according to a reasonably well understood process like a referendum or plebiscitary elections. The international community would have accepted a Yes result in 2014, even if many thought it would be messy. I’m pretty confident they would accept a Yes in a re-run, or indeed as a result of plebiscitary elections which resulted in a clear Yes vote.
Unfortunately it’s not the international community or even the British nationalists that our greatest obstacle, it’s lack of the political willpower you refer to above.
@ Rev Stu 12.56 am
It boggles my mind that anyone with an IQ over 12 is still trying to punt the “majority of MPs” line. It’s just staggeringly idiotic. You can get a majority of MPs with about 30% of the vote. If anyone thinks 30% of the vote is either (a) a legitimate democratic mandate for independence, or (b) anything the international community would even for a single microsecond consider grounds for recognition of independence, they need their fucking head felt.
And yet, like dogs returning to their own vomit we’ll have a parade of the usual suspects insisting that a majority of MPs is all we need, or some other “cunning plan for indy”(TM) snake oil. Of course, they won’t call you a closet unionist or an operative of the 77th Brigade, or a closet Sturgeonite, or just a cunt, but anyone else who agrees with you is fair game. Odd isn’t it?
Al-Stuart, the ‘subscription’ to iScot that Ken ‘cancelled’ was in fact a freebie that Ken had willingly provided to Stu’s Dad. IIRC, there was more to it as well, but whatever, it was sad that both of them took such a stand against each other as they were both so important to the YES movement. Especially since Scot goes Pop was not worth arguing about or getting so het up about.
It is also sad that so many yessers have shouted for years about needing alternative Scottish media yet they never supported those start-ups which provided the alternative media yessers were shrieking for, and which have been driven to give up through lack of essential financial support.
@ScotsRenewables (12.56) –
Huh?
Even as a question of ‘language’, you don’t think it valid to point out that ‘the international community’ is an ideological term, not a legal one?
Seriously?
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
9 July, 2022 at 11:56 am
You can get a majority of MPs with about 30% of the vote. If anyone thinks 30% of the vote is either (a) a legitimate democratic mandate for independence, or (b) anything the international community would even for a single microsecond consider grounds for recognition…
But a 50% share of the vote in a first past the post referendum is like scoring a try in a football match. A remarkable achievement which counts for absolutely nothing because it’s playing by the wrong code.
The Westminster electoral system recognises seats, only seats, NOT share of the vote.
If you want to win Independence by 50+% share of the vote, then fine, hold a binary referendum.
However, if you want victory in a Westminster plebiscite, the threshold of victory is 30 seats… 50.8% of the seats available and the tipping point for a majority.
If that’s idiotic, then take it up with Westminster. It’s their system, and they’re happy to exploit it against Scotland. But isn’t it telling you something when they don’t lose any sleep about “us” running through the streets in open revolt whenever they exploit the system to get their way?
That’s two cringes I count against you Stu, first that Scotland should somehow be denied the same rules and playing field as Westminster, and second, that the poor Unionists shouldn’t be upset in defeat whereas YESSER’s just have to lump it, cheats and all.
It’s worse in fact. It’s two Cringes and a Sturgeon, because for some weird ethereal reason, Scotland’s will must be judged by a higher standard of democracy than everybody else’s.
Perhaps the consummate ease with which it can be manipulated is why Democracy is not a prerequisite of international recognition, otherwise Michel Barnier would have recognised our 62% Remain mandate, but he didn’t because the UK Constitution, the rules in play at the time, briefed him how to interpret it.
You can get a majority of MPs with about 30% of the vote.
It does make sense that you would need a majority in a referendum to win the day however we may not be having a referendum just a general election.
With this majority of MPs elected on 30% of the vote they can do all sorts of things that maybe only 10% of the electorate agree with.
My question is why would you need a majority of votes for independence and not for GRA/self id, Iraq war UK Gov & Prime Minister & all the rest?
Breeks @1.34pm.
Yes I agree Breeks take a look at my 8.56pm comment from last night, well its not actually mine, but surely its pertinent on the matter.
Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 11:56 am
“It boggles my mind that anyone with an IQ over 12 is still trying to punt the “majority of MPs” line.”
Better understanding the nature of what we are dealing with would seem advantageous. We need to consider here the oppressive environment Scots are seeking liberation from, and also oppressions suffered over the past three centuries and more, which includes a range of colonial population management policies.
Independence, or Decolonization as the UN refers to it, demands careful analysis of ‘the population’ of any territory and people seeking Self-Determination. We cannot assume, in any decolonisation process, that ‘the population’ represents one single homogenous group, for this is seldom the case especially after longstanding external colonial (mis)rule.
In colonialism, development of ‘the population’ and longstanding historical (mis)management of the country through external oppressive controls has to be considered; colonialism results in a crushed and broken people and culture, and a plundered nation whose calls for Self-Determination reflect the solidarity of what is an oppressed ethnic group. This is an urgent call requiring prioritisation of action.
Important considerations here include: who are the colonised and who is the coloniser/usurper in this case? What psychological damage has colonialism had on elements of the native population to make them reject even their own liberation from oppression? Which sections of the colonial society remain co-operative with the colonial power, keeping the people oppressed?
Postcolonial theory tells us all of this and more, and that independence is always primarily “a matter only for the colonized” (Albert Memmi).
https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/wp.towson.edu/dist/b/55/files/2022/05/The-Socio-Political-Determinants-of-Scottish-Independence.pdf
There is only one thing worse than an unsuccessful Scottish Independence vote, plebiscite or otherwise. And that is winning the vote and then getting it struck down by the Courts. So dot all the I’s and cross all the T’s beforehand. So I favour belts and braces, over 50% of the electorate. If there is to be an early General Election will Sturgeon declare it as a plebiscite election? I have my doubts about that.
Republicofscotland says:
9 July, 2022 at 1:51 pm
Breeks @1.34pm.
Yes I agree Breeks take a look at my 8.56pm comment from last night…
I’m confident we’re correct in this Republic, and dissenters are misunderstanding the critical distinctions between a referendum and a Plebiscite Election.
Equally misunderstood is the “third party” concept of Westminster, who really ought to see the mere prospect of a Plebiscite Election being Scotland’s alternative to a Referendum as something akin to a political laxative, where “not” obstructing a Referendum suddenly becomes an infinitely smarter strategy than blocking one. And that expected bowel movement occurs because the threshold for victory is that much easier to reach.
Schrödinger’s Scotland again.
Are we a region needing validation from the international community on becoming a country or are we already a country that just needs to assert our sovereignty through our representatives?
We seem to be one or the other or maybe even in no man’s land all at the same time.
There is a different size leap depending on our starting point.
Seats v votes, why not win seats for a binary referendum, surely that would tick most of the demanded boxes?
As has been pointed out above, the SNP are in charge of how we go about it and they have proven to be tactical geniuses.
Whatever people think, I believe discussing it takes us closer to our goal.
Agreed, Breeks. It’s ‘their’ system. And we are only talking about going down this road because ‘they’ are denying us a referendum.
It’s the usual public school spoiled brat stuff, everything to be done to suit them, their way, they own everything, etc.
Incidentally, Westminster does grasp this concept on some level, because they avoid the political hand grenade of saying “NO” to a referendum by saying “Now is not the time”, instead.
Not saying Yes has the same effect as saying no, but is doubly effective because Scotland’s leadership is utterly flummoxed by slippery ambiguous sophistry. Denied a straight answer to their question, the SNP will stand still marking time for 8 years without an exit strategy to escape the stalemate.
George Ferguson,
If we didn’t have the 2014 referendum we would be a lot further away from independence than we are now.
The 2014 referendum will definitely be considered a stepping stone in my opinion.
I also think making every future election we have, a plebiscitary election for independence is another route to go.
We shouldn’t be hamstrung by ourselves by trying to get everything perfect.
There is only one thing worse than an unsuccessful Scottish Independence vote, plebiscite or otherwise. And that is not having one.
In my opinion, of course.
“I’m confident we’re correct in this Republic, and dissenters are misunderstanding the critical distinctions between a referendum and a Plebiscite Election.”
Breeks @2.09pm.
Yes lets use there own system against them, say for instance the SNP/Indy parties were to win 56 or even 57 of the 59 seats but that amounted to say 48% or 49% of the vote, do we just say oh well we didn’t win.
@Breastplate 2:27pm
‘Not having one’ True. I heard Sturgeon calling for an early General Election but I did not hear her commit to make it a plebiscite election. 2024 Yes I heard that. An early general election I did not hear a declaration to make it a plebiscite election. Perhaps I missed that bit.
ANDY ELLIS.
We are unlikely to accord on the background to the conflict. My reading of the history of the Russian borderlands is of a rather nebulous cultural entity without any political foundations until the Ukrainian republic of 1917 which only the British recognized. Borders have moved, as have ethnicities, with dizzying frequency. The Bandera interlude did nothing to help.
https://archive.ph/DhL4a
We do agree that without the will to power all is posturing. SNP does the moves but with noticeably static footwork.
However, anything that can be brought to the state creation process must be welcomed and tried. The more fronts the better. I’m sure many a Ukrainian would agree with that!
On WhatsApp I have a letter from the Commons that appears to have come from Dame Margaret Hodge.
It’s address to Zahawi the new Chancellor of the Exchequer.
It asks a series of questions about off shore accounts and investments that support tax avoidance and a property investment of £100 Million that seems to be serviced off shore.
It really looks like the filthy rich only become Tory MPs to ensure millions can grow and these tax loop holes are never closed.
A nation can only produce a finite sum of cash.
When the rich are getting richer the money can only come from the other end of the scale.
The gap between the richest and the rest of us has grown in each of the last consecutive 57 years.
What chance anyone in Westminster would try to break that cycle.
Any chance the U.K. media will promote change.
Zahawi
These include asking him:
If he or anyone in his immediate family had ever held non-dom status.
Whether his “close ties” to two offshore companies have been used for tax evasion purposes.
If he holds equities in these two offshore companies, and if so why these aren’t declared in the MP’s register of interests. Or alternatively, if his financial relationship to these two companies are maintained through trusts.
If his £100 million property portfolio was acquired through the facilitation of offshore companies or service firms based in tax havens.
Whether he paid the requisite taxes, including stamp duty, when purchasing these properties and if he has fully declared all of his properties in the MP’s register of interests.
Why he formerly help £20 million of YouGov (the company he co-founded) stock in a Gibraltar based company, and if his use of offshore structures here was for the purpose of tax evasion.
Whether he still holds “significant” equity in YouGov through offshore arrangements, and whether he has ever received dividends from this or other offshore companies, and if so, whether he paid dividends tax in the UK.
Hodge admitted that her line of questioning was “rather personal”, however stated that it was in the public interest as it would be “wildly inappropriate” for any Chancellor to have utilised offshore structures for tax avoidance.
The idea that Scotland electing 30 pro-indy MPs on less than 50% of the vote would mean something seems to come from Thatcher once having said – back when the SNP were winning about 4 seats – that that would be enough for independence. Maggie’s off the cuff remarks from 40 years ago have no relevance or legal standing.
It’s exactly like when Salmond said that the Indyref was a once in a lifetime or once in a generation chance for Scotland. He was talking symbolically about the Indyref being a rare chance for Scotland. That had no greater significance or legal standing either – even if Boris pretended to believe it was some legally binding promise written in blood.
I don’t know if a plebiscite election would work. even if you get a result like 2015, what’s to stop London ignoring it? True, you could appeal to the ‘international community’. But the ‘international community’ is basically the UN – and the UK is a veto wielding permanent member of the Security Council. If the idea is to appeal to the International Court of Justice (ICJ), that’s not an option because only independent states can take a case there. If Scotland were already independent, it could rake a case against the UK- but not if it’s not already independent.
But it gets worse – the ICJ only has jurisdiction if BOTH states agree to submit the case to it. I v much doubt London would agree.
IDK, it all just seems a long shot. The best course of action might be some form of mass civil disobedience demanding a S. 30 referendum that creates such a nuisance that London agrees to it – but that would probably mean said disobedience would have to happen in England..so ho hum. Patience required, I suppose – until pro-indy Scottish MPs hold the balance of power in a hung Westminster parliament and can make allowing an indyref the condition for supporting a minority Labour (or even Tory) government…
What a lovely Union we live in where an unrepresentative minority of the unelected ultra greedy will pick the next UK PM.
To the SNP members – Fars oor “fair referendum?”
OT
Folks, can any of you help answer this question – I appreciate it’s answer lies in many different areas….
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF ENGLAND’S TOTAL ENERGY NEEDS (PETROL/DIESEL, GAS AND ELECTRIC) ARE SUPPLIED BY SCOTLAND?
If you know any part of the answer, or all, please let me know, be really useful if we can reference the source also. I appreciate the answerx might include Wales (no disrespect intended).
Sturgeon insists on having a referendum, because she has said there will be one. And her word is gospel.
If she can’t have (what she calls) a legal referendum, she will have what she calls ‘a de facto’ referendum. Either way, she has set her stall out for what the rules are.
Referendums are decided on votes. Sturgeon is therefore stuck with this, that is why she had to correct Swinney, and that’s the way it will be, like it or not, whoever wins the day in the academic debate being conducted on here.
The words Sturgeon and independence do not sit comfortably together. Until this foot stamping tyrant is shown the door along with her tribe of brain dead followers in the SNP, there is no chance of independence being achieved.
Daisy Walker says:
9 July, 2022 at 3:48 pm
OT
Folks, can any of you help answer this question…
Sorry Daisy, can’t answer that, but one scandal I’ve been told about relates to Calor Gas bottles, both butane and propane and the current “shortage”.
The story I heard was these bottles were routinely filled at Grangemouth, and there were no supply issues to customers.
But recently Grangemouth stopped refilling bottles so the story goes, and now the empties are sent down to Preston or somewhere, and you’ve now got a devil of a job getting bottles refilled. That’s scandalous enough, without mentioning the price of them.
Why is Scotland with a refinery at Grangemouth sending it’s empty gas bottles to Preston? (Assuming of course that story is actually true and the legit explanation).
The suppliers say “unprecedented demand”, but it’s summer.
“Yes lets use there own system against them, say for instance the SNP/Indy parties were to win 56 or even 57 of the 59 seats but that amounted to say 48% or 49% of the vote, do we just say oh well we didn’t win.”
Republic of Scotland @ 2.28pm
Yes, because you would have lost and the Pro-UK side would have secured more votes. If the people of Scotland are truly “sovereign”, then you need to secure the majority of the vote share.
“In colonialism, development of ‘the population’ and longstanding historical (mis)management of the country through external oppressive controls has to be considered; colonialism results in a crushed and broken people and culture, and a plundered nation whose calls for Self-Determination reflect the solidarity of what is an oppressed ethnic group. This is an urgent call requiring prioritisation of action.
Important considerations here include: who are the colonised and who is the coloniser/usurper in this case? What psychological damage has colonialism had on elements of the native population to make them reject even their own liberation from oppression?
Postcolonial theory tells us all of this and more, and that independence is always primarily “a matter only for the colonized””
Alf Baird @ 1.56pm
Scotland is an intrinsic part of the UK, it has never been a colony. Scotland together with England colonised the world and created the world’s largest and most powerful empire.
Your views represent the crackpot, fringe element of the independence movement and would scare off undecideds. You are one bizarre and eccentric individual.
EFFIGY
Would LOVE Zahawi as next UK pm…
Like me Iraqi, although I retain my Iraqi passport, suspect he doesn’t.
He’s very, very Brit. No to indie and all that stuff.
The irony of a Kurd as pm…the Brits bombed the Kurds during their «tenure» of Iraq.
We can overlook that in the pursuit of POWER!
Scotland shall be free!
Christopher Pike,
Let’s say you’re right and Scotland isn’t a colony.
Is it possible even although Scotland isn’t a colony, it may be treated as one.
A bit like a marriage where husband and wife are seen as equals to the outside world but behind closed doors the great brute of a husband is kicking the shit out of his “partner”?
@Roger 3.36 am
I don’t know if a plebiscite election would work. even if you get a result like 2015, what’s to stop London ignoring it?
Well, London and the international community would be entitled to ignore it, and would undoubtedly do so, because 50%, it wasn’t a plebiscitary vote, and it was for a union parliament. No true democrat buys the “it’s seat not votes that matter in the Westminster system, therefore if we win 30 seats, irrespective of % of the vote we’ll declare UDI and the international community will welcome us with open arms.
It’s utter bollocks I’m afraid.
The international community will take note – even if Westminster tries to object – when and if the Scottish independence movement demonstrates a clear majority voting in response to a clear question on an unequivocally pro-independence mandate. Nothing less will do. Anyone insisting otherwise is deluding themselves and trying to sell you a pup.
It’s true that only states can take cases to the ICJ, so unless Scotland has some influential friends lined up to plead their case, it may not help. To an extent I find myself agreeing with Ottomanboi – which doesn’t happen that often – that in the final analysis if there is a dispute between Westminster and the pro-independence movement in Scotland about whether a pro-indy result in a future plebiscitary election is valid or not, it will be down to the Scottish people to ensure their wishes are respected.
I’m a firm believer that in a democracy, 50% + 1 is enough. Of course we’d all like more: something decisive, even overwhelming. But in the end the minority should respect the majority result. We didn’t complain that 54% wasn’t enough for “No” in 2014, or 52% wasn’t enough for brexit in 2017. Similarly, the Quebecois didn’t declare victory after coming agonisingly close in 1995. That’s not how it works.
We don’t need to wait on Westminster’s permission, or the perfect alignment of all the stars. what we DO need is a clear majority, and the political cojones to turn that in to an unstoppable momentum for international recognition.
@Roger 3.36 pm
*Edit: because 50%, it wasn’t a plebiscitary vote, and it was for a union parliament
Should read: “because the vote was < 50%, it wasn't a plebiscitary vote…."
Christopher Pike @ 4:59 pm
“Scotland is an intrinsic part of the UK, it has never been a colony.”
What did you think independence was, if not decolonisation and liberation from oppression? Scotland has all the features of an exploited colony including a mankit violated treaty as well as a co-operative elite and bourgeoisie and colonial mindset (which includes denial of oppression and denigration of one’s own culture, language etc). In colonialism the native elites are often more than co-operative in what became known as ‘indirect rule’ and Scotland is not unique in this regard. There is plentiful postcolonialism literature and theoretical perspectives which helps explain how and why colonised peoples are oppressed and why they seek independence/decolonisation and hence liberation from oppression.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/18/determinants-of-independence-colonialism/
@Alf Baird 1.56 pm
Independence, or Decolonization as the UN refers to it, demands careful analysis of ‘the population’ of any territory and people seeking Self-Determination.
Can you point me in the direction of the official UN announcement that the UN regards all instances of independence as de-colonisation? Once you’ve produced that evidence, can you follow it up with where the UN recognises the situation of Scotland as one of de-colonisation?
Because if you can’t do either, and it’s just your opinion, then it would cast your narrative in a rather different light don’t you think?
Sadam was an Iraqi and I would want him or Zahawi ruling over Scotland
A question about Englands Energy resources is skewed like everything else Scotland related in Westminster.
Remember New Labour, the photo copy Tory party stole 6,000 square miles of Scottish Maritime waters.
Technically the theft suggests England has some oil and gas resources that they should never have been able to claim.
It comes with our fishing rights and was designed to fudge the GERS figures and reduce the likelihood of Independence.
Good old anti democracy thieves in the former peoples party.
The lesser of 3 evils in Westminster.
What does it matter if the UN consider the situation in Scotland as one of de-colonisation or not?
Surely what matters is what voters think?
If describing Scotland as a colony helps voters see the ridiculousness of Scotland’s situation then surely that is what matters.
What does the UN consider Scotland’s situation to be?
Do they believe as stated by Crawford & Boyle that Scotland ceased to exist in 1707 and became Lesser England?
Ach, you’ve jist got tae hae a soft spot and fond subservient love for the “international community” who have done so much to address ongoing global inequality, the wanton destruction of so many of our planet’s habitats for profit, or kerb the perpetual warmongers that carry out there endeavours utilising both modern and medieval weaponry.
FFS, if these “supreme” folk we have to get the nod from can’t get their shit together to stop big corporates manufacturing all sorts of sophisticated killing devices, or stop folk simply hacking each other to bits with machetes, then I suggest we need a new international community that actually has some morality tae its purpose and the cajones to exert pressure and influence to start implementing better ways of doing things.
@Breeks
Aye, the unregulated fuel industry that includes gas bottles is a joke. I know of folk buying empty gas bottles for 20 quid so they can then get them filled. There’s a shortage of bottles as they are lifed what with being a pressured vessel that contains and explosive gas. Guess what, we don’t make them here so have to buy and import them from abroad. Another classic “Brexit” bonus…
Anyway, Energy is a power reserved to Westminster and Kenny MacAskill had recently brought up the subject of unregulated fuel supplies in yon mother of all Parliaments, but as that shitshow of inequity and ethics doesn’t even have a proper functioning government or opposition then we best not expect much to change in the foreseeable.
There must be a reason nearly 10% of folk in England are apparently on anti-depressants. Might that jist be a sign that there’s some serious failings in how the UK State is being run.
Was this seats (Swinney) votes (Sturgeon) debate started by them deliberately to take peoples eye off the ball? If so, it seems to be working.
@Dan 6.16 pm
Ach, you’ve jist got tae hae a soft spot and fond subservient love for the “international community” who have done so much to address ongoing global inequality, the wanton destruction of so many of our planet’s habitats for profit, or kerb the perpetual warmongers that carry out there endeavours utilising both modern and medieval weaponry.
And your alternative is…..?
Because if you don’t have a practical and achievable alternative to a rules based regime – however imperfect it may be – folk might just think you’re bumping your gums to no real effect. It’s true that the UN has signally failed in many areas, but unless you’re going to magically replace it with a world government everyone is somehow happy to sign up to, what do you think would happen?
Perhaps we could all just learn to love Big Brother…? Of just accept that we’d really be a lot better off if we just let the nice bunch of lads in Beijing impose their world view on all of us. Or the Donald’s world view? He might be back after Biden. Perhaps a newly independent Scotland could just keep its head down and hope nobody notices us in the future? It worked out well for places like the Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium and Norway in the past huh? I mean it’s not as if they posed a threat to anybody and nobody ever invaded them, right….?
Oh….wait….
@Merganser 6.26 pm
I suspect you credit the SNP with considerably too much intelligence.
Swinney in particular is the archetype of someone who has risen without trace. A humble man, with much to be humble about.
Does anyone doubt that the UN will go the same way as the League of Nations if it no longer suits the purposes of specific nations? (Need three guesses to name which two in particular?)
And I’m still waiting for anyone to provide an agreed definition of ‘the international community’. It’s an abstract noun. Any discussion which treats ‘the international community’ as a real thing is as pointless as one which takes ‘The War on Terror/Drugs’ seriously.
What we need right now is a War on Obfuscation – that at least could achieve something tangible by addressing the misuse of language.
We shouldn’t be wasting our time worrying about what the UN think or what the ‘international community’ think we should be concentrating on what voters in Scotland think.
This ‘psuedo referendum’ shit is most definitely not going to help convince the undecided to vote Yes aka SNP.
Then there is the huge issue of GRA/Self id which nobody here seems to be that interested in.
I’ve just finished viewing the documentary ‘What is a woman’
It’s currently available on You Tube. It probably shouldn’t be so I won’t post a link.
It’s an excellent documentary and shows how totally insane people like Sturgeon are. Totally insane & very dangerous.
The section about Kinsey & Money is mind boggling & I couldn’t help but think about the ‘school’s sex survey’ when watching it.
If voting for the SNP is the only way to vote for independence then I think a lot of people might think saving the children is more important that independence.
Probably best not to watch the documentary if you prefer to ‘Wheesht for indy’
PS Would the Maasai people be part of the ‘international community’? They seemed to have a pretty definite answer to Matt Walsh’s question. Might be interesting to hear their views on Scotland.
My God Miss Truss
https://twitter.com/LiveFromBrexit/status/1545471062535770113?s=20&t=pKw7uI3wHrXhs_OjeQFFtA
Merganser says:
9 July, 2022 at 6:26 pm
Was this seats (Swinney) votes (Sturgeon) debate started by them deliberately to take peoples eye off the ball? If so, it seems to be working.
That it’ll be seats or votes for the SNP only.
Remember this:
https://tinyurl.com/bddedt24
Sturgeon has already referred the matter of whether Holyrood can legally legislate on indyref2 to the Supreme Court. If the court rules that the Scottish Parliament cannot do so, she intends to use the next General Election as a de-facto referendum, with a majority of votes for the SNP providing a mandate.
Yes lets use there own system against them, say for instance the SNP/Indy parties were to win 56 or even 57 of the 59 seats but that amounted to say 48% or 49% of the vote, do we just say oh well we didn’t win.
You have to wonder what sort of Alice Through the Looking Glass world some folk in here inhabit. No true democrat would of course think that it was legitimate to claim that we could or should become independent on the basis of polling < 50% but gaining a majority of seats in the FPTP Westminster parliament.
It would be as outlandish as insisting that Remain won the brexit vote, or Yes won in 2014. Using the Westminster FPTP electoral system still requires us to demonstrate two pretty simple things: a clear majority of votes (50% + 1 should be fine, though there's no definite precedent, and no real consensus on what figure is enough) and a clearly plebiscitary mandate from the parties representing the Scottish people prior to the vote.
The number of seat is immaterial.
The system Westminster uses is immaterial.
The Treaties of Union, Claims of Right and Declaration of Arbroath are all immaterial on the day of the election.
50% + 1 of people putting an "X" in the right box on a ballot is all that matters. Then it's game over. All we're talking about then is detail, negotiations and the minutiae of the divorce settlement. If we don't think that can be done, we're just wasting our time.
IAN BROTHERHOOD.
If you’re a minority or a «small nation» the big guys who run the international agencies are not interested, unless you have something the patrons need.
Exceptionally, the UN did not endorse the Iraq invasion but to no avail. Oil was the rationale.
International law is effectively the law of the strongest.
The stongest write the dictionary definitions too.
Curioser & curioser.
@ Andy Ellis at 6:28pm
Ach, bumping my gums I may be.
But hey, I can still spot the glaring issues and hypocrisy of “a rules based regime” the “international community” supposedly follows even though I am jist some low grade no mark that you stated you were going to ignore…
But as you also acknowledge aspects of my appraisal of said “international community” are present, maybe you could furnish us with some of yer oan actual local / national initiatives and a program of policy that could begin to address and rectify matters from oor oan country’s perspective that would be a positive addition to said “international community”.
Personally I think we’ll have to wait along time for the current crop of magnolia career politicians that clearly lack vision and awareness of how things could be altered to better serve the wants and needs of oor people.
So c’mon bud, work with me on this, or are you jist bumping yer gums tae…
Republicofscotland says: 8 July, 2022 at 6:25 pm
So he may have been assassinated for his far right view?
Given how weird Japanese society is, if you’re correct about him having CIA links, he could have been bumped off for not being far-right enough.
@Ottomanboi (7.28) –
Yep.
Big boys with big toys make dem rules, always have, and always will unless otherwise intelligent people get their heads out of their bottoms.
And they’d better do it pronto or we’ll all be going around The Big U-Bend at the same time.
“Given how weird Japanese society is, if you’re correct about him having CIA links, he could have been bumped off for not being far-right enough.”
Pacman.
It could be the other way that he was assassinated because he wasn’t old school enough, not paying enough attention to Japan and its traditions in such that he put US interests before Japanese ones. I recall reading that a Japanese PM was assassinated by a group of young Japanese military officers for attempting to make peace with China, incidentally Charlie Chaplin was in the country at the time and met with the assassinated Japanese PM.
https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/charlie-chaplin-tramps-his-way-past-a-japanese-coup-d%E2%80%99etat
@Dan 7.32 pm
…maybe you could furnish us with some of yer oan actual local / national initiatives and a program of policy that could begin to address and rectify matters from oor oan country’s perspective that would be a positive addition to said “international community
Well, I’m just some guy on the internet bud…my impact starts and ends at my ability to influence the party I’m a member of. If the position of King of the World becomes available in the meantime though, I’m sure I could probably make a better fist of it than some of the current incumbents. Mine would be a benevolent dictatorship, honest…..! 🙂
Independence is the key to the success of any local or national initiatives and programmes. From that, all things flow: surely most of us can agree on that, if on little more? My general prognosis would be to follow the kind of policies our Scandinavian friends followed in the past: I’m an unreconstructed social democrat. I think we should take from the rich to give to the poor, whether it’s rich individuals or corporations.
I think we should commit to ending foodbanks, pensioners having to decide whether to eat or heat their homes, ensuring the living wage IS a real living wage, ensuring our health service and educational systems are protected and improved, joining the EEA and NATO to protect ourselves and our children’s futures. I’d promote a lot of other stuff too which probably wouldn’t fly or get taken up like free bus travel for everyone, investment in a greener economy. None or some of that might happen.
It’ll definitely be none if we’re not independent tho’.
I’m happy to keep on ignoring you and others. It all depends if you have anything interesting to contribute whether I might or might not pick up on what is said. Even low grade no-marks get lucky sometimes.
Aw ah kin say it this stage in the geme is …..thank fuck fur people like Ian Ma Brutha Fae Anutha Hood n Dan n Geri n Ottomanboi n Alf B n the people thit hiv eyes thit urnae glued shut wae fckn shite
Fucksake troops wur getn battered tae fck fae aw sides
Is bein Scottish worth any’n ?
A think it is
@Robert Hughes 11 49pm
Well your right we are at the business end of the game. I like all the posts of the contributors you quoted. And there will be a time to unite. But until we have a super ordinate goal a la, a definite Independence vote that won’t happen. We need something to get behind. Over to your great leader. She could have said that an early General Election was a plebiscite election but she didn’t. Cue more betrayal I fear.
When the moment came, and they were seeking to implement vaccine passports – the issue of all our lifetime’s and the imposition of complete authoritarianism – you were nowhere to be found were you Wings?
Shove your trans-activism up your delicate arse, you cowardly fucking cunt.
The big question of the week hasn’t even been mentioned here; what triggered the massive attack on Boris, from multiple corners of the establishment and MSM?
The whole thing seemed coordinated to me, much like the obliteration of Corbyn and Labour’s left wing.
One minute they are supporting him in a vote of no confidence, calling him Houdini, laughing and joking about how he gets away with everything, etc., next minute he is being totally demonised… how many resignations were there, 50 or something?
It was bonkers but not because of anything Boris said or done; he was just doing what he always has done, which was tolerated and supported everywhere just a week or two ago.
George Ferguson @ 1.07
Cheers George . The trouble with naming individuals ( as I’m prone to doing ) is you inevitably leave out others equally deserving of * praise * .
TBH I think I’ve exhausted my invective re Sturgeon/NSNP and I’m at a loss on how to contribute positively .
We’re riven top-to-bottom , no one seems to want to act , or can’t see any course of action that would get us out of the crippling paralysis we’re in as a Movement ; those that are proposing * alternative * approaches are dismissed as airy-headed fantasists/romantics and the * next year in Jerusalem * types ( ie lets work towards the next G.E /S.E Futurists ) seem to be chasing an ever-receding mirage .
Ah well , something has to give eventually . Change being the only constant in life ; paradoxically .
Beautiful morning none the less . Hope it’s the same wherever you ( plural ) are 🙂
Hatuey .
Johnson was only ever installed to * Get Brexit Done * and has now outlived his usefulness and is now considered an electoral liability . Tories don’t do sentiment ; or loyalty
It could also appear that he wasn’t sufficiently * on message * with what Brexit is really about ie the rigid enforcement of Hard Right economic/social policies . * Hong Kong on Thames *
Whoever succeeds him will be
those that are proposing * alternative * approaches are dismissed as airy-headed fantasists/romantics and the * next year in Jerusalem * types ( ie lets work towards the next G.E /S.E Futurists ) seem to be chasing an ever-receding mirage
Irrespective of one’s position on the “seats versus votes” issue, there WILL be General Elections to both Westminster and Holyrood. An independence referendum may not happen for much longer, or even be indefinitely delayed if the British nationalists succeed in concreting the “now is not the time” or “once in a generation” narratives in.
This has been discussed before, so it’s not new. If anything the proponents of “cunning plans for indy” and those that assure us “Nicola’s got this, indyref2023 is a certainty” have more in common.
A more united movement might certainly have more success in both achieving a vote of >50% in a plebiscitary General Election – whether in Westminster or Holyrood – and ensuring the result results in widespread if not universal international recognition.
It still seems strange to me that even those enamoured of these nebulous UDI based fantasies can’t see that it’s much more likely that a GE will happen sooner and be able to become a plebiscite we can win, than than that they can come up with anything approaching a coherent plan that is generally accepted by the movement, still less achievable in the eyes of the various international bodies and countries we’d have to persuade to validate it.
A Westminster GE might come before 2024 of course. The SNP/Green government in Holyrood could grow a pair and engineer an early Holyrood GE to capitalise on the Tories current travails. If the SNP hadn’t lost so many MPs at Westminster and still had say 56 out of 59, there might even have been an argument for them all standing down and proving plebiscitary bye elections. I haven’t done the maths, but I don’t know what % of the electorate the current crop of SNP troughers at Westminster represent of the total Scottish electorate. Of course, Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas, do they?
” It still seems strange to me that even those enamoured of these nebulous UDI based fantasies can’t see that it’s much more likely that a GE will happen sooner and be able to become a plebiscite we can win…. ”
I get what you’re saying Andy , but …. I don’t consider UDI anymore of a ” fantasy ” than the current SNP * Leadership * doing ANYTHING constructive or seizing any initiative that would lead to Independence .
We always come back to the same point ie the need to rid ourselves of the feeble-minded – if not ill-intentioned – usurpers and – actual fantasists ( Gender goons ) squatting in Holyrood/Westminster
Kemi Badenoch in today’s Telegraph regarding the amendments to the Online Harms Bill which have been used to censored anyone not conforming to the Guardianista hivemind:
“One of the things that I see is people saying that women are adult biological females is harmful speech. We can’t legislate for something that will create a crime out of such a simple, factual statement. And those are the things that I think we’re doing wrong.”
Andy Ellis @ 8.38
“I haven’t done the maths, but I don’t know what % of the electorate the current crop of SNP troughers at Westminster represent of the total Scottish electorate.”
I think it’s 45%, for the most recent GE.
Ellis,
I don’t think this is accurate at all.
The “cunning plans for Indy” as you call them haven’t been discussed.
They may have been aired by some and dismissed by others but definitely not weighed and measured.
For example, does a confirmatory referendum in Scotland change your perception of any of these plans?
I try to read everybody’s comments and I haven’t seen one comment of whether a confirmatory referendum would impact positively on even one of these “cunning plans for Indy”.
I agree with you that a plebiscitary election at the GE after a negative ruling from the SC (if there has been anything sent to the SC that they can actually rule on) is a fantastic opportunity for our self determination but it’s perhaps not the slam dunk we think it is.
Any process that allows an agency outwith Scotland to have any part in the process other than observation has got to be viewed as a negative, especially an agency that is invested in Scotland not having self determination.
We may even agree on the best plan going forward but we shouldn’t forsake all others.
The Paul Kavanagh and SNP plan of embarrassing Boris into handing over an S30 has been shown up for what it was, utterly embarrassing. The worst thing about that wasn’t the plan but that’s where they had placed all their eggs, ffs.
Which brings me to our biggest problem. The SNP are in charge of the independence vehicle and Nicola Sturgeon has had the minibus parked up with the wheels off for all of her time in charge with the Nicophants in the back having orgasms every time she toots the horn or tells them we’re going on a trip.
Right now, they’re in charge and we haven’t moved an inch closer to the destination on the front of the bus, so showing them different routes is unlikely to make much of a difference but we may need those roadmaps for another vehicle, one that’s being built at this very moment.
Which vehicle we choose may well be more important than which plan we choose.
I am struggling with Nicola, without any discussion, decides a plebiscite election will need a majority of seats and votes.
Why would she give away the majority of votes without a discussion when it could be used as a tool. If you want a voter majority call a referendum otherwise majority of seats.
There seems to have been a number of occasion when she gives away an advantage.
You could easily think she is trying to lose.
@Dan re macheties
Back in the good old days when my status as a no mark moon howler had less of an adverse effect on employment or health & welfare opportunities – and those with an interest in conflict were arguably less excited about Scotland’s future – I was lucky enough to work in West Africa and witness what appeared to be primary students enjoy cutting grass in the schoolyard WITH MACHETIES- ie not the sort of thing you’d get away with in Port Glasgow (not least for fear of transphobic kids no longer learning decorum from old Andy Stewart favourites – and skipping formalities to castrate the highland temp in consequence)
Difficult to accept then that only 15-20 years later these same kids might have grown into the type of psychopath that would raze whole villages from the map (or be victims of a conspiracy of silence/ cancel culture) yet that appears to be exactly what is happening according to video 10 of the DIY osint course below*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?=RoqWbpZUOSo&list=PLrFPX1Vfqk3ehZKSFeb9pVIHqxqrNW8Sy&index=4
*which will hopefully prove more interesting (than the heat map) to the apocalypse missionaries, or anyone else keen enough with time on their hands, as another tool to help disavow Andrew Neil of his apparent scorn for Scots intelligence, or at best its ability to work with/ for an mi6 that may have been asleep at the wheel on everything from seasonal flu to Bute house sex dungeons
‘So What Really Happened In 2014’ – yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
Charles Hodgson says:
10 July, 2022 at 1:24 am
When the moment came, and they were seeking to implement vaccine passports – the issue of all our lifetime’s and the imposition of complete authoritarianism – you were nowhere to be found were you Wings?
Shove your trans-activism up your delicate arse, you cowardly fucking cunt.
Not as cowardly as some no mark posting under the nom de plume of some long dead Z-list actor …
Jeremy, 45% is vote share, not a share of the electorate… if anyone should know there’s a big and important difference, it’s Andy.
When a people decides it wants its freedom, it doesn’t sit around splitting hairs about whether its seat or votes that count.
There will be no independence given, taken or deserved, if it isn’t something like 80% of the people. The tide of pro and anti independence amongst the swing voters, ebbs and flows every week. Because the current SNP leadership in both Westminster and Holyrood is so pathetic and bitter, I find it amazing that the pro figure holds at (arguably) 45-55% currently.
Just watch your TV about how a Sri Lankan people gets energised enough to let their government know how they feel.
We are currently about 4 generations away from such passion.
Concentrate first on getting rid of Sturgeon for her miserable regime, relentlessly weakening us on all fronts.
Wally Jumblatt,
We’re only 4 meals away from such energetic protests.
Hey, if they let us we could always democratise the “international community” so what said collective thought on matters genuinely reflected the expressed views of all nations.
Ah, but what voter franchise and voting system would we use… and would it be a majority of seats won or votes cast that counted in generating mandates for decisions to be made…
Hatuey @ 11.06
Good point, well in that case…
The Scots turnout in the 2019 election was 68.1%, so that would be 45% of that figure, which I make… 30.645 %.
@Jeremy 11.48 am
Apologies, I wasn’t making my point clear enough. I was wondering what % of the total Scottish electorate was represented by the 11 British nationalist seats in Scotland, and it wasn’t immediately evident from the sources I looked at. You’re right the overall turnout was 68.1%.
My point was more along the lines of: I wonder how many (and which?) Scottish seats pro-independence parties/MPs would have to hold to make standing down and provoking plebiscitary elections still represent a convincing mandate / % of the whole electorate. Obviously if the “feeble 56” after 2015 had done so, it would have been a pretty strong mandate, as their seats represented a huge proportion of the total Scottish electorate. I’m not sure what % of the total electorate the current 48 SNP MPs represent?
I like your thinking, Dan.
@Dan 11.39 am
A first step would be to abolish the security council veto. A second would be to reform the council to better represent the “whole” international community. There is no real case for the UK and France to have security council seats: there should be a seat for the EU. Countries like India, Brasil, Indonesia, Mexico, Nigeria, South Africa should be considered for membership, or they should consider giving seats to the African Union, Arab League etc.
That’d certainly concentrate a few minds….! As we see with the EU however, multi-national bodies tend to travel at the speed of the slowest boat, and the largest most powerful members still have the biggest influence. If you want to reform or replace the UN with something different, more representative and more “democratic”, who is going to be paying for it, and how will it enforce its decisions? Will it have its own armed forces, or expect others to supply the necessary resources? Will it rely on economic and political sanctions instead or as well as the threat of force?
I have my doubts a lot of present regimes will be at all keen to accept that the UN or another replacement for it would be able or entitled to impose decisions on them that they have resisted up to now because a majority in a General Assembly voted for it. Perhaps the “international community” may be ready for the necessary changes someday, but I don’t think you you should bet the farm it happening any time soon.
I didn’t think Dan was serious about reform of the international community but rather pointing out the double standards in which we find ourselves regarding democratic majorities.
Maybe I’m reading too much into his comment.
Andy Ellis
We’ll probably have an answer by September as to whether a General Election will happen before the “scheduled” date in 2024. The race to replace Boris is starting to look like it will be the acrimonious mess that could only be expected from such a set of narcissists and fantasists.
Perhaps Boris is harboring the idea that if enough chaos is sown then a replacement for him simply won’t be found and he’ll carry on as the defacto catetaker.
I don’t think that will prove acceptable to the country and so there will be a push for a General Election to try and break the impasse. Boris might actually go for that as if it’s true that the grassroots still love him it might be his best chance for redemption.
The alternative is that we are starting to see the destruction of the Conservative and Unionist Party. I’d keep an eye on Farage. That would be a good sign that the Conservative and English Nationalist Party is about to be born.
“If the people of Scotland are truly “sovereign”, then you need to secure the majority of the vote share”
That assertion is incorrect. If that was the case, then Scotland would have never entered this union in the first place.
How exactly can we ever secure a majority of the vote with a franchise that allows over 50 million of people from outwith Scotland to cast a vote in Scotland and we are having to play by the rules of a coloniser who has not only control of the whole process, but incidentally a huge vested interest in preserving this union?
We cannot.
You cannot put on a general election all the demands of a referendum when you cannot offer any of the advantages. You cannot put all the obstacles in front of the yes movement and absolutely none on the no side. That is neither democratic nor fair. And it certainly is not an expression of “sovereignty”. It is an acceptance that you don’t have any.
There is not need for a majority of the vote and there never was. A majority of the popular vote was never needed (nor even considered) in 1707 when Scotland entered this union. A simple majority of MPs voting for it is all what it took. The UK is after all a parliamentary majority. A majority of the vote in Scotland was never needed to be governed by whatever political party England chose to put in control of the UK government.
Virtue signalling by imposing unachievable goalposts to impress other countries is completely pointless when you are in no position to achieve it. The only thing you are doing is putting unnecessary obstacles in front of yourself after you have removed them from your opponent. How is that democratic or even clever?
If the people of Scotland were asked right now whether or not they would have approved of the 1707 Union (had they been alive at the time and anyone had bothered to ask them), what would the result be?
(And just to avoid any unnecessary arguments, let’s include all ‘New Scots’ as per the 2014 franchise.)
@Mia 1.19 pm
What a disingenuous response!
How exactly can we ever secure a majority of the vote with a franchise that allows over 50 million of people from outwith Scotland to cast a vote in Scotland..
That’s not what is going to happen. In a plebiscitary election made necessary by British nationalist intransigence and refusal to honour the 2014 precedent for an agreed referendum, the vote of people outside Scotland are immaterial. Only the votes of Scottish constituencies count.
You cannot put on a general election all the demands of a referendum when you cannot offer any of the advantages.
Says who? You? So what….? We’re demonstrating a process to garner international support for the recognition of Scottish independence. The britnats are demonstrating bad faith by obstructing access to an “agreed” referendum despite multiple mandates given by the Scottish electorate to their government.
Announcing that as a result, pro-indy parties will regard all subsequent General Elections as de facto plebiscites, irrespective of other issues or day to day policies is understandable, clear and simple. The threat has to be meaningful and serious however, and those making it have to be committed to a successful vote being an immediate and de facto declaration of independence. No further referendum or assembly is needed, just 50% + 1 in a plebiscitary election.
There is not need for a majority of the vote and there never was.
There is, and always will be, unless you think there’s going to be a civil war, ethnic cleansing or a Kosovo type situation. There is no route to independence that doesn’t demonstrate a clear majority of voters in favour, in response to a clear question on an unequivocal mandate that a majority will be taken as an immediate right to declare independence.
A majority of the popular vote was never needed (nor even considered) in 1707 when Scotland entered this union. A simple majority of MPs voting for it is all what it took.
This isn’t 1707, it’s 2022. We’re not going to ban Catholics from being our monarch just because that’s what they did 300 years ago either. Folk need to get over this weird obsession with 300 year old Treaties that nobody else cares about or thinks are relevant. It’s a sideshow. We didn’t have universal suffrage 300 years ago.
Virtue signalling by imposing unachievable goalposts to impress other countries is completely pointless when you are in no position to achieve it.
It’s not virtue signalling, it’s realpolitik. If we can’t convince 50% + 1 of Scottish voters to support independence, we don’t deserve it. No ifs, no buts. We can’t blame everyone else for out collective lack of political balls, and continually blame everyone else for the fact too many of our countrymen are essentially “slaves who revere their chains”. Our arguments just aren’t good enough. We don’t solve that by moving the goalposts and disenfranchising people, or by pirouetting ever more frantically on the head of constitutional pins.
How is that democratic or even clever?
Democrats construct majorities. If you’re advocating achieving independence by a route that doesn’t include a clear demonstration that a majority of Scots have voted for it, you ain’t no democrat sis!
Ian Brotherhood says:
10 July, 2022 at 1:32 pm
If the people of Scotland were asked right now whether or not they would have approved of the 1707 Union (had they been alive at the time and anyone had bothered to ask them), what would the result be?
(And just to avoid any unnecessary arguments, let’s include all ‘New Scots’ as per the 2014 franchise.)
50% for 50% against.
Sorry that’s probably a disappointing answer.
Those who believe we are ‘Better Together’ now would have believed the same in 1707.
Is there any history of the views of the English now New Scots re treaty of the Union?
A wee thought experiment:
In the 2015 Westminster General Election, the SNP won 56 of 59 Westminster seats.
The total Scottish electorate was 4,093,481.
The turnout was 2,910,465 (71.1%).
The SNP won 1,454,436 votes (49.97%).
The Greens won 39,205 votes (1.3%).
Of course, 2015 wasn’t a plebiscitary election, but pro-independence parties won >50% of the vote, though they had no plebiscitary mandate (another warning for those in the SNP unwise enough to insist that only SNP votes count!).
Let’s say that Sturgeon had immediately instructed her 56 MP’s to stand down when she received the first “Now is not the time” response from Teresa May, and provoke 56 bye elections in Scotland. The party *might* have been punished by the electorate for doing so of course, but if they’d all stood on an explicitly plebiscitary mandate, they’d have represented 95.9% of the Scottish electorate, because the 3 unionist seats after 2015 had a combined electorate of 168,850 (4.1% of the total Scottish electorate).
What might have been eh…..?
Dan says:
10 July, 2022 at 11:39 am
Hey, if they let us we could always democratise the “international community”…
Ah, but what voter franchise and voting system would we use…
Make them all Scottish. Sorted.
My biggest disappoint with Scotland is that we are all talk and no action.
Just out of curiosity does anyone have any views as to why in the midst of all his troubles Boris was so speedy in answering Nicola Sturgeon?
Does she have anything planned in the way of a follow up to his refusal?
I’m thinking maybe a hunger strike or a protest/walk out?
Anything? Will it be just all talk and no action.
Ruby says:
10 July, 2022 at 2:09 pm
Does she have anything planned in the way of a follow up to his refusal?
Commit Scotland to a 30 seat Plebiscite Election on Independence.
You’ll get our Section 30 Referendum Agreement signed, sealed, and delivered by return post.
A majority of the popular vote was never needed (nor even considered) in 1707 when Scotland entered this union. A simple majority of MPs voting for it is all what it took.
This isn’t 1707, it’s 2022. We’re not going to ban Catholics from being our monarch just because that’s what they did 300 years ago either. Folk need to get over this weird obsession with 300 year old Treaties that nobody else cares about or thinks are relevant. It’s a sideshow. We didn’t have universal suffrage 300 years ago.
————
This act is still in force now. So are you going to get it changed Andy? It seems pretty important to the UK as it’s in the first two acts and has never been removed. They removed plenty of acts about dammed ‘salt’ but hey no way we removing ‘all papists will never set foot on the British crown’. Aye and in past few weeks and in two days time they reinforce it pretty dammed forcibly with daft flutes and banging of drums.
So is Andy Ellis gonnae raise a petition to remove Act 1 and Act 2 of the treaty then before we get Indy? Tell the unionists that 300 year old treaties don’t matter and I think you’d be the one on top of one of their bonfires- no the pope!
Well this is us telt!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/scottish-independence-tory-leadership-contenders-jeremy-hunt-and-sajid-javid-rule-out-indyref2-until-2033/ar-AAZpYRo?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=48cd2f58fa874807a0954a9eaf6787c1
From the pragmatic viewpoint, is the British state just too big to be allowed to fail?
Is that the reason behind the frequent missed opportunity stories?
A «we will ruin you, should you try» scenario?
That shady «international community» is well aware which side the bread is buttered. Definitely not Scotland’s morsel.
@robbo 2.35 pm
Any Ellis doesn’t care. Nobody with a sense of perspective cares. It wouldn’t matter a flying fuck at a rolling donut if the Treaties of Union had never existed, or had been repealed, or if the Tories had put a match to them then pissed on them on the steps of Bute House.
The only people who really seem to care about it are the nutters banging lambeg drums and a handful of cranks who post about it ad nauseam in here or elsewhere online confecting ever more abstruse and unsupported schemes to deliver independence other than via a referendum or plebiscitary election.
The Scots are a people. They live within an ancient nation with defined borders. They have a right to self determination like every other people on earth. To change the current constitutional arrangement will required a clear majority vote, in response to a clear question in either a referendum or a plebiscitary election.
It’s not rocket science, it doesn’t require an advanced degree in constitutional law to figure out, just a commitment to work towards getting 50% + 1 Scottish voters to grow a pair.
https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2022/07/choose-your-own-british-constitution.html?m=1
Absolutely no one in any London party is going to give Scotland democracy.
They need our money and we are a trophy to English politicians.
They don’t give a damn about us and never will until they need to plead for our resources.
Don’t even ask just do something they say is wrong or illegal.
The machinations of the Britnats in 2014, and why giving everyone and their dog a vote cost us independence.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/07/10/so-what-really-happened-in-2014/
Thought experiment, part 2:
In the 2015 Westminster General Election, the SNP won 56 of 59 Westminster seats.
The total Scottish electorate was 4,093,481.
The turnout was 2,910,465 (71.1%).
The SNP won 1,454,436 votes (49.97%).
The Greens won 39,205 votes (1.3%).
The figures for 2019 GE are as follows:
The total Scottish electorate was 4,051,485.
The turnout was 2,759,061 (68.1%).
The SNP won 1,242,380 (45%).
The Greens won 28,122 (1%).
The 11 unionist seats were won with a total vote of 502,928 (12.4% of the total Scottish electorate, 18.2% of the national total votes cast).
Those 11 seats had a total electorate of 709,005 (17.5% of the total electorate, 25.7% of the total votes cast).
Wee quip I saw which I thought was quite funny…
“If I had a £ for every Government resignation today, I could buy a tub of Lurpak”.
The machinations of the Britnats in 2014, and why giving everyone and their dog a vote cost us independence.
I see Ian Lawson is still too frit to allow comments from folk like me who disagree with his nativist snake oil pedalling. It doesn’t exactly exhibit a lot of confidence in your case when you seek to stifle opposing views pointing out that the basis of Mia’s “no other country would allow this” schtick is utter bollocks.
I responded to cruachnabeinne comment BTL there as follows, as the denizens of Yours For Brigadoon are as out there as some of the locals here – indeed thay are often one and the same.
“You’re not comparing like with like. Self determination referendums since WW2 have overwhelmingly been decided on a franchise of giving residents a vote, not imposing birth criteria or trying to decide before the event who would or would not be a citizen of the new state. Virtually none have even imposed a qualifying residence period, and where they have it’s usually 24 months.
As more thoughtful commentators than some in here have observed (hat tip Stu Campbell):
“If you want to deny 20% of the people who live in Scotland the vote in a referendum because they were born somewhere else, we’re not on the same side. If you want their votes, ******* well persuade them. If you can’t, your case is shit.”
The ex-British soldier and deputy leader of the SNP Keith Brown is 100% behind Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford on his handling of the complaints against SNP MP (sex pest) Patrick Grady.
And some are daft enough to think this lot will lead Scotland out of the union, no chance.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20268956.snp-depute-leader-keith-brown-backs-ian-blackford-patrick-grady-complaint-handling%2F
Gaining independence will not be easy. I don’t think we should approach any stage of the journey with misplaced optimism and complacency. We tried that in 2014.
We should always consider closely the possible consequences of following suggestions which might be the result of selfish motives. For example;
If we continue to allow bussed-in ‘plants’ and itinerants to dilute the electoral roll in Scotland, is it going to become difficult to claim that Scots are a people, or peoples?
In claiming to be ‘peoples’ would we be risking the laughter of the fabled ‘international community’ as well as providing opportunities for unionists to question the result?
Note: International law does not define a ‘people’ or ‘peoples’.
Boris Johnson to reward the faithful.
“BORIS Johnson is considering making Nadine Dorries a peer in the House of Lords, according to reports.
Johnson’s Culture Secretary has been one of his most loyal backers in cabinet and he is now thought to be considering a place for her in his resignation honours list.”
Also Paul Dacre is in line for a knighthood and the hedge fund manager Michael Hintze, the former an editor of the Daily Mail the latter caught up in the Cash for Cameron Scandal, having eaten with David Cameron, who in return was given £250,000 pounds.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20269017.boris-johnson-considering-peerage-nadine-dorries-resignation-honours-list%2F
We should always consider closely the possible consequences of following suggestions which might be the result of selfish motives. For example;…
Hmmnn…we should also consider closely the possible consequences of suggestions like restricting the existing franchise, what the selfish motives for that might be, and what the impact of throwing the civic nationalist baby out with the bath water might have.
It might for example turn some current supporters against the cause.
It might make international recognition less likely, because we’d be using a franchise that is profoundly out of step with the vast majority of other comparable self determination votes.
What % of “New Scots” would it be appropriate to disenfranchise do you think Ron, and on what basis?
Also, if you’re going to use nativists criteria and restrict the vote to those born here, people who would be future citizens and long term New Scots who can prove continuous residence, doesn’t that logically mean enfranchising all those Scots abroad in the diaspora?
Are you going to advocate for a special electoral register for the 800,000 Scots in England?
How about those in the USA, Canada, Oz and NZ? Plenty of those might take up the offer of a Scots passport….but lots more are staunch unionists. If you enfranchise them, which way would they vote do you think?
@ Andy Ellis
“That’s not what is going to happen”
And exactly how can you make such claim?
What is stopping them? You?
“In a plebiscitary election made necessary by British nationalist intransigence and refusal to honour the 2014 precedent for an agreed referendum”
Sorry, this is nonsense. First of all, when you have a majority of anti-union MPs in Westminster, “the precedent for an agreed referendum” is only one of the routes available to us to get independence. That is the only one Sturgeon mentions does not make it the only one. When you have a majority of anti-union MPs, seceding from the Uk of Great Britain is not your only option. You can actually use your anti-union MP majority to repeal the treaty of union and terminate the UK of Great Britain.
What is stopping you?
Attempting to put exclusively the blame for the last 7 years of absurd stasis on the tory gov is pure garbage. It is not the tory gov who has exercised an spectacular misuse of Scotland’s successive mandates for a referendum and more importantly, their 3 absolute majorities of SNP MPs sent to Westminster. It is Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP who have done that.
I invite you to read Nicola Sturgeon’s letter on the 2019 SNP manifesto, which she calls “MY vision”. The letter says:
“A vote for the SNP is a vote to
escape Brexit. It’s a vote to put Scotland’s future
in Scotland’s hands”
Well then. What exactly has she done to use that SNP MP majority achieved under “HER vision” to put Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands?
Sweet Fuck all. For the last 3 years the only thing she has done is to remove the control of our future from our hands.
Westminster tells us Holyrood is devolved parliament. Fair enough. It also tells us that both the UK government and Sturgeon’s government agree that Holyrood does not have the power to terminate the treaty of union. Great. Sturgeon’s government may agree to that. Does Scotland agree to that? When exactly have we been asked? When did we cast a 50% +1 democratic vote that the world all over will recognise to endorse that assertion?
But it does not matter, because Scotland’s MPs, as the representatives of Scotland’s Old Parliament, do have that power.
Did you ever hear Westminster explicitly saying they do not have that power? I don’t know how they can and then at the same time claim this union is by consent.
So what exactly has been stopping Sturgeon as leader of the SNP to recall all those MPs to Holyrood to transfer temporarily their power to HOlyrood so it would be able to call the referendum on independence?
Weren’t those MPs elected in 2019 on a manifesto to put Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands?
Three years on, why haven’t done it yet?
I see nothing stopping her, other than her own supersized ego, unquenchable thirst for infinite power and steely determination to frustrate independence.
In other words, if a referendum has not happened in the last 6 years it is not because May or Johnson have not agreed to start discussions for a S30. It is because Sturgeon and the SNP she commands have not given them any reason to agree to one. Perhaps because she has no real interest in delivering that referendum and even less in departing from the route of Scotland seceding from the Uk of Great Britain to take the more direct route of putting our anti-union MP majorities to use to repeal the treaty.
“the vote of people outside Scotland are immaterial”
In your head it might well be. In the reality where Scotland finds itself and that is in front of our noses, they play a huge role.
When they are free to register to cast their vote in Scotland as they were in indyref 2014 and have been in every Holyrood and general election ever since, there is nothing immaterial about their vote. To claim their vote is inmaterial is either wishful thinking on your part, unhealthy denial or an attempt to get us to bury our head on the sand and walk like lambs to the slaughter house like we did in 2014. I won’t. Not this time.
If in the 8 months from May 2015 general election to the NRS electoral record for December, over 200,000 people disappeared from that electoral record without anybody even raising an eyebrow, it stands to the obvious that during the few months before any plebiscite election on Scotland independence takes place, there will be nothing stopping another 200,000 and quite a few more to quickly register to vote in Scotland and frustrate a yes vote.
Because, what exactly will be stopping them? You?
the British state? The UK civil servants tasked with “saving the union”? The colonial parties with HQ in England and concerned about the consequences for England of losing control of Scotland’s assets and the prospect of a different currency? Sturgeons devolutionist SNP?
“Only the votes of Scottish constituencies count”
Sure. And who controls the registry for UK elections in those constituencies? Who controls the postal vote in those constituencies during a UK election? Who reports the official votes? What is stopping people living outwith Scotland registering to vote in those constituencies? You?
“Says who? You?”
Yes, of course I do. And as a voter in the electoral registry I have every darn right to do so. In a completely undemocratic situation where Scotland has absolutely no control over the franchise, has absolutely no control over the vote, has absolutely no control over the official result, has absolutely no control over how many people are going to cross the border in time to cast their vote from Scotland or cast a postal vote in Scotland, how many civil servants or service personnel the UK gov is going to send on time to cast their (and their families)’ vote, how many dead people are going to remain in the registry so they can emerge from their graves and, guided by tory or labour activists, cast a vote against independence, you are trying to impose here your notion that, the only acceptable democratic approach is to remove every single obstacle that is in front of the British state to win this and then put those obstacles in front of the pro independence voters in Scotland instead. I say your approach to democracy is bollocks. It is bollocks because you cannot ensure the process is democratic in the first place. Forcing that threshold in those circumstances is therefore setting the people of Scotland to fail AGAIN. It is the most secure way to lead the yes voters like lambs to the slaughter house. There is absolutely nothing democratic in setting a threshold that is, in the current circumstances, impossible to achieve UNLESS the British state respects democracy at all times, steps back and does not interfere, like for example, suddenly, adding over 200,000 new voters to Scotland’s electoral register on time to cast a vote.
Can you guarantee no interference at all from the British state or its political arms? Because if you cannot, then you can, neither morally, nor logically, demand a 50%+ of the vote, claim it is democratic and expect everybody else to accept it.
Now, set up a referendum where Scotland sets up a registry, controls the franchise, a franchise that follows the rules of every other country in Europe, based in citizenship, given by ancestry, length of stay and allegiance to Scotland. A referendum where Scotland controls the ballots, polling stations, who sits at the polling tables and who counts the votes. A referendum where Scotland controls the postal votes, their validating and counting, controls the narrative, and controls the funding to both campaigns. A referendum where the counting takes place in situ, with observers who have watched the entire process from the moment the votes were cast to the moment the official count is released, or even better, release it on Zoom or similar platform so everybody can watch it live as the counting takes place, and I will have not a single word to say against your 50% +1. I will be the first one endorsing it and casting my vote.
But for as long as you cannot secure all of the above, setting an impossible threshold of 50% +1, when you can achieve a majority of anti-union MPs, which is historically what was always needed to terminate the union, in my eyes this plebiscite election will be at all practical effects, just another excuse to frustrate independence, another excuse for Sturgeon to move the goalposts even further to deny us independence and another stitch up as 2014 was when it was decided that it was acceptable to use a flawed franchise that saw the native Scots vote for independence frustrated by the vote cast by those born elsewhere. Had the franchise used in any other European country, even on the UK itself, been used in 2014, Scotland would be independent today.
So hell yes, I say you cannot demand from a plebiscite election all the inconveniences of a referendum when you cannot provide any of the advantages, claim the result from your side has to be perfectly democratic when you cannot/will not ensure your opponent will behave democratically and not interfere with your vote, and then demand everybody else to simply close their eyes, switch their critical thinking off and simply accept your demands as gospel.
I most certainly will not.
“This isn’t 1707, it’s 2022”
Precisely. But you cannot deny 1707 existed. 1707 is when this problem started, because it is the time when this Treaty of Union was ratified by Scotland’s Parliament and when it entered into force.
We are now in 2022 far more versed in international law than the people of 1707 had the opportunity to be at the time. Because of this, we now know that under 2022 international law standards, that treaty would have never seen the light of day. So what right do you have today to demand from everybody else to forget all the flaws under international law of the process that gave birth to that treaty and then simultaneously demand that we ignore the rights that international law gives us today to repeal that treaty?
In 1707 the treaty and the consecutive Act of Union were ratified against fierce popular opposition. The people at the time were even denied the chance to take part in a general election to select the Scottish MPs that would represent them in the First parliament of the UK of Great Britain because they were concerned the people would send a majority of anti-union MPs. For this reason, it was the MPs who elected themselves, ensuring that only pro-union MPs were sent to Westminster.
So given those circumstances, what right do you have now to demand from everybody else to ignore those profoundly undemocratic circumstances, and dubious under current standards of international law, in which that treaty and the consecutive Act of Union with England were ratified and how the MPs were elected, and demand from everybody else now to impose on themselves the most strict levels of democracy to exit the treaty when you are simultaneously opening every door for your opponent to not behave democratically?
If a majority of the popular vote was never needed to enter this treaty in the first place, what right do you have to impose that demand now to exit it?
None.
“Democrats construct majorities”
No. Democrats deliver mandates. Democrats ENSURE plebiscites and referendums are democratic FOR BOTH SIDES, not just for one. Democrats respect minorities while not silencing majorities. Democrats block external interference, they do not invite it in. Democrats respect a people’s right to self-determination. Democrats do not impose unachievable thresholds as an excuse to deny self-determination and democracy so they can claim afterwards the question is settled for a few more years.
Like it or not, democracy was never part of the Crown’s plan to impose the union on Scotland. It was never part of the plan when anti-union MPs were bribed to vote in favour. It was never part of the plan when anti-union MPs were not called to vote so the Crown Party could have a majority. Democracy as never part of the plan when a general election was not called and the first round of MPs was elected from a selection of pro-union MPs. Democracy has never been part of the plan of keeping Scotland in this union for 300 years. Democracy was never part of the plan of forcing England’s governments on Scotland despite having no mandate on Scotland.
So tell me, why all the sudden democracy is only important to exit this union when it was never important to enter it or to remain in it?
I’d guess old Boris has been boning Dorres as well as everything else he can get his hands on
https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1545825125810970626?t=en2ZxMcLaycLuK8wuK_CUQ&s=08
Andy Ellis says:
10 July, 2022 at 3:50 pm
@robbo 2.35 pm
Any Ellis doesn’t care. Nobody with a sense of perspective cares. It wouldn’t matter a flying fuck at a rolling donut if the Treaties of Union had never existed, or had been repealed, or if the Tories had put a match to them then pissed on them on the steps of Bute House.
—-
LOL. If the were the case then does mean we are FREE? Because you saying the ‘Treaties of Union had never existed’, ‘or had been repealed’, then it would mean exactly that dunner heid!
The treaty matters dim wit because the UK is built on it and runs everyday by it.
If you think those for Independence winning a plebiscite election with 50% + 1 or a referendum with 50 % + 1 of the vote is going to wash with them lot then I think yer smoking too much o the waccy baccy auld yin! (BECAUSE OF THE TREATY OF UNION) matters and always will tae the yoons.
Do you know how many of joe public understand what a plebiscite election is and it’s consequences are? Bet not, just the same as treaty of union I bet.- so best you tell them Mr Ellis
Do you know how many of joe public understand what a plebiscite election is and it’s consequences are? Bet not, just the same as treaty of union I bet.- so best you tell them Mr Ellis
I’ll bet a lot more of them than know or care about the minutiae of 300 year old treaties that won’t be relevant to winning 50% + 1 in a plebiscitary election. Setting out the stall for plebiscitary elections is simple. As we’ve seen with the constipated prose and reasoning of those bloviating about “cunning plans for indy” they’d be asleep a few minutes in to explaining.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56197629
Remember this guy!
He ended up being charged with sexual assault & put on the sex offenders register.
This case is very similar to the Patrick Grady incident except what Grady did was worse because the young man worked for him. The waiter in the Donnolly case didn’t have to see him again & wasn’t reliant on him for his income.
The question is if this had happen in Scotland would Patrick Grady like Donnolly had been charged with sexual assault & put on the sex offenders register?
By the sounds of it a ‘plebiscite election’ can be anything the party proposing it wants it to be.
I’m totally against it. I don’t trust the SNP.
I think we should be protesting and insisting Sturgeon get us a section 30 as she promised.
Andy Ellis says:
10 July, 2022 at 5:58 pm
Do you know how many of joe public understand what a plebiscite election is and it’s consequences are? Bet not, just the same as treaty of union I bet.- so best you tell them Mr Ellis
I’ll bet a lot more of them than know or care about the minutiae of 300 year old treaties that won’t be relevant to winning 50% + 1 in a plebiscitary election. Setting out the stall for plebiscitary elections is simple. As we’ve seen with the constipated prose and reasoning of those bloviating about “cunning plans for indy” they’d be asleep a few minutes in to explaining.
————
Shall we put it to the vote then?
Gaun yersel Andy.
‘Also, if you’re going to use nativists criteria …’
I didn’t suggest any criteria. I think you’ve missed the point. Perhaps deliberately.
@Mia 5.14 pm
is only one of the routes available to us to get independence. That is the only one Sturgeon mentions does not make it the only one.
I know that there are multiple routes. I just believe we should use one with a chance of winning, which is realisable in the short to medium term, and which has more chance of being recognised by the international community and is likely to garner some support from experts in the field. So far all the “cunning plans for indy” mob have come out with is amateur hour analysis, airy assertion and a side line of abuse for those pointing out that their plans have no academic or intellectual hinterland, and are likely to take much longer to bring about independence than e.g. plebiscitary elections, even if they had the support of any significant political, legal or constitutional figures, which they just don’t.
You can actually use your anti-union MP majority to repeal the treaty of union and terminate the UK of Great Britain.
What is stopping you?
It’s not a matter of there being anything stopping me or others, we just don’t accept it’s do-able. You and others insisting it is doesn’t make it so. Show us the beef as the old advert says. If it is so obvious or self evident that it is the case that a majority of Scottish MPs can simply repeal the Acts of Union and terminate the UK, show us the evidence. I don’t mean “Alf Baird said so”, or “Sarah Salyers has read extensively on the matter an is convinced”. Show us the learned papers in the relevant journals, the support from international experts in constitutional law, international law, the law of Treaties, parliamentarians, international organisations. Otherwise, folk might just think you’re making this up as you go along.
Does Scotland agree to that? When exactly have we been asked? When did we cast a 50% +1 democratic vote that the world all over will recognise to endorse that assertion?
That’s not how representative democracy works. If you want it changed, form your own party to enact the policies you want, or ensure an existing party adopts your policies. Simple. Go do! Some of us have been advocating a plebiscitary election for a while. there’s a lot more chance of that happening than the various “cunning plans for indy” ever happening. But if you want to make them happen, it’s down to you and your followers to convince people to make it so. Good luck!
In other words, if a referendum has not happened in the last 6 years it is not because May or Johnson have not agreed to start discussions for a S30.
True. Many of us have been saying for years the legality issue WRT S30 order should have been put to bed legally years go. That’s the SNP’s fault, and the movement as a whole for letting the SNP away with it. Things might be changing, but only at the speed the SNP dictates: if the referendum route is frustrated we move to plebiscitary elections. No other routes have the necessary support or organisation: certainly not those advocating UDI or some “cunning plan” majority free variant. They’re all utter bollocks without a hope of gaining recognition abroad or success domestically.
Sure. And who controls the registry for UK elections in those constituencies? Who controls the postal vote in those constituencies during a UK election? Who reports the official votes? What is stopping people living outwith Scotland registering to vote in those constituencies? You?
ALERT! ALERT! Woo woo conspiracy theory klaxon!
Will there be burly men outside polling places too Mia?
Oh dear…..
Now, set up a referendum where Scotland sets up a registry, controls the franchise, a franchise that follows the rules of every other country in Europe, based in citizenship, given by ancestry, length of stay and allegiance to Scotland.
Oh dear….blood and soil nativist klaxon too! Well done you! It’s been pointed out to you and others before that you’re comparing appleas and oranges. Self determination referendums don’t use the franchise of ALREADY INDEPENDENT STATES! It just doesn’t work that way, sorry. Virtually every such vote enfranchises all residents, not who *might* be a citizen in future. Disenfranchising New Scots is the very definition of regressive, ethnic nationalism. You and those who agree with you are in a small minority thankfully. You don’t represent the movement or its values.
In 1707 the treaty and the consecutive Act of Union were ratified against fierce popular opposition.
It doesn’t matter. Nobody else cares. It was 300 years ago.
If a majority of the popular vote was never needed to enter this treaty in the first place, what right do you have to impose that demand now to exit it?
It’s not about me, it’s about what the people we expect to recognise out independence will demand. a clear majority of 50% + 1 in response to a clear question. They won’t care that ordinary Scots didn’t have a vote 300 years ago. So what? Neither did virtually anyone else 300 years ago. Get a grip. That’s not an argument, it’s just hysterical emoting and having a chip on your shoulder.
Democrats do not impose unachievable thresholds as an excuse to deny self-determination and democracy so they can claim afterwards the question is settled for a few more years.
Democrats don’t insist that gaining independence by a cunning ruse using seats and < 50% of the vote would be legitimate, still less accepted by the international community in a million years. You're advocating driving at full speed up a constitutional and political cul-de-sac. The thresholds are normal and achievable. If we can't meet them, we don't deserve to be independent. We should neither expect nor get special treatment. We have to abide by the same norms as all the other countries – most with few of our benefits – who have achieved independence against the odds in past decades.
We're not being done, diddled or conspired against – we just don't have the political balls that other people have had. All we need to do is put an "X" on a ballot paper. No wonder the Irish and Catalans laugh at our timidity.
So tell me, why all the sudden democracy is only important to exit this union when it was never important to enter it or to remain in it?
Because a state born in by anti-democratic means is on a hiding to nothing. We’re meant to be a shining example of inclusive, civic nationalism to the world, not an example of shoddy, regressive ethnic nationalism gaining independence on the back of a nativist minority who disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of New Scots because we couldn’t persuade them our future was better than staying in this rancid union.
As Stu Campbell said some time ago (and I’m absolutely certain his views are MUCH more representative of the mainstream movement than yours and those of your nativist mates):
But I’ve officially lost any urge to even think about it, if even the people opposed to that awful vision just have a different kind of awful vision, of a country where only “ethnic Scots” have a say. Bollocks to that.”
TBH I think the punished handed out to Donnolly was a bit harsh likewise what is happening to Patrick Grady although he hasn’t been charged yet.
None of the SNP can complain because if was Sturgeon who set all this sort of thing in motion. She started with Mark MacDonald followed by Alex Salmond then Derek MacKay.
I’m all in in favour of friends & colleagues giving support to those facing these charges/accusations so normally I might have given Ian Blackford the benefit of the doubt but fuck him I didn’t see him or any other member of the SNP giving support to Mark MacDonald, Alex Salmond or Derek MacKay.
Let Patrick Grady be charged with sexual assault & put him on the sex offenders register.
The SNP set the standards and I’m pretty sure if I looked back at the Donnolly case there would be plenty non-supportive comments from the SNP.
Question in The Times today regarding Grady being able to stand for the SNP in the ‘de facto referendum’.
“For the love of God” -as they say. Wid ye Adam & Eve it!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/church-of-england-there-is-no-official-definition-of-a-woman/ar-AAZqgBL?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=17594937c7a549f996b171066b66368d
robbo says:
Shall we put it to the vote then?
Gaun yersel Andy.
Did Sturgeon ever use the term ‘plebiscite election’ and explain how it worked.
I believe the term she used was ‘de facto referendum’
robbo says:
10 July, 2022 at 7:08 pm
“For the love of God” -as they say. Wid ye Adam & Eve it!
OMGoddess!
You could do a Matt Walsh and ask them ‘What is it that there is no definition of?
Did you watch the documentary ‘What is a Woman?’
I wonder when the question ‘What is a man?’ will be asked?
Perhaps we can do that after we find out how many people know what
1. plebiscite election is?
2. what a de facto referendum is?
The next thing they’ll do is to change the bible so that it has Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.
You seriously couldn’t make it up.
PacMan says:
10 July, 2022 at 7:34 pm
The next thing they’ll do is to change the bible so that it has Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.
You seriously couldn’t make it up.
‘Say hello to Trans Jesus’
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fspectatorworld.com%2Ftopic%2Fwhite-jesus-enter-trans-jesus%2F
FAO Ellis
Treaties can be terminated is all ‘the law’ you need to recognise here.
Union with England Act 1707 saw Scotland’s Parliament agree to the treaty with England.
UK Parliament has broken the terms of the treaty many times; Effects, such as closing of Scotland’s treasury and loss of associated ledgers, should be publicised more to educate the public, not hidden away forever as you’d like.
Parliament might make ‘the law’, but it isn’t above it. Legal action could be one way to terminate this dysfunctional union too.
TBH, the more fronts the yoons are having to firefight on, the better for all who seek independence for Scotland.
[And I refer you again to the 3 independence referendums held in New Caledonia in 2018, 2020 & 2021 that very much did impose restrictions on the franchise that you are so set against]
@Ron Maclean 6.48 pm
I didn’t suggest any criteria. I think you’ve missed the point. Perhaps deliberately.
Ron 4.56 pm
If we continue to allow bussed-in ‘plants’ and itinerants to dilute the electoral roll in Scotland, is it going to become difficult to claim that Scots are a people, or peoples?
Perhaps if it walks like a duck…and quacks….?
UK Parliament has broken the terms of the treaty many times; Effects, such as closing of Scotland’s treasury and loss of associated ledgers, should be publicised more to educate the public, not hidden away forever as you’d like.
And nary a one resulted in any action. I’m not advocating anything being hidden, simply pointing out that the things referred to aren’t that important, and certainly have SFA to do with winning independence in the short to medium term. The Brigadoon Provisional Army are obsessed with such trivia and ancestral grievance though. Maybe that’s why the movement is stuck in a cul-de-sac?
Parliament might make ‘the law’, but it isn’t above it. Legal action could be one way to terminate this dysfunctional union too.
It could. I could be the Prima Ballerina at the Bolshoi. It’s about likelihood, and what we should be focusing on. If you think legal challenges will produce faster results than plebiscitary elections, have at it. I don’t share your confidence. I don’t know anyone who knows what they’re talking about who does.
[And I refer you again to the 3 independence referendums held in New Caledonia in 2018, 2020 & 2021 that very much did impose restrictions on the franchise that you are so set against]
And I refer you to the response at the time you brought it up. Scotland is not New Caledonia. The UN recognises New Caledonia as a Non Self Governing Territory within the meaning of the UN Charter. Can you point me to the similar listing for Scotland, “Scott”?
The General Assembly adopts on an annual basis a resolution on New Caledonia. Does it do the same for Scotland, “Scott”? Or Catalonia? Or Quebec? It’s almost as if they think the situations might not be the same isn’t it?
The latest resolution states:
Reaffirms that it is ultimately for the people of New Caledonia to determine freely and fairly their future political status in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples and the relevant resolutions of the General Assembly, and in that connection calls upon the administering Power, in cooperation with the territorial Government and appropriate bodies of the United Nations system, to develop political education programmes for the Territory in order to foster an awareness among the people of their right to self-determination in conformity with the legitimate political status options, based on the principles clearly defined in Assembly resolution 1541 (XV) and other relevant resolutions and decisions;
It’s almost as if the UN sees New Caledonia as a case of de-colonisation isn’t it “Scott”.
I must have missed the annual resolution about Scotland’s de-colonisation?
TransScots are Scots.
Transducks are Scots.
Transtreaties are Scots.
Trans rights are the statutory rights of cisScots.
He/they said so.
@ Scott
Transbirdz are defo birdz, especially since last week when I started Self IDing as a golden eagle so I can attack (without legal implications) the bastardin deer that’s scoffed aw my beetroot plants.
Humans cannae do such things to deer as those big brained mammals imposed a load of criteria and laws to restrict deer hunting.
Unfortunately some deer don’t adhere to my rules based regime where it is closed season on my veg patch, and it jist isnae the done thing to enter my property and cause havoc and loss.
But now that I am a pea brained avian whose ancestors were dinosaurs, it’s fookin game on for the venison stew…
@Dan
Didn’t know that you eagles liked beetroot. It goes well with leftover venison on a piece.
Ruby @ 7.12
Sturgeon’s words ‘de facto referendum’ are significant as I have pointed out in previous posts. It’s the Violet Elizabeth Bott syndrome showing through. She has to have something that she can refer to as a referendum (which of course it is not, de facto or otherwise) to pretend that she kept her word to hold one.
The discussions with the Lord Advocate must have been priceless:
‘I’ll scream and I’ll scream and I’ll scream ’til ……
https://archive.ph/tki81
And further to my last post, imagine this scenario:
Supreme Court Judge to Lord Advocate:
‘You didn’t have confidence that the proposed referendum would be legal; you then didn’t have the courage of your convictions, or you could have just said ‘no’, but instead abrogated responsibility and dressed it up as a question of law and passed it to us to decide to get you off the hook.
Your application states that it was the First Minister who asked you to consider making this reference, not that it was your original idea. Why did it need, as you state, careful consideration, before making the reference? Why didn’t the initiative come from you in the first place if you thought there was a genuine question for us to answer?’
OK they will dress it up a bit better than that, but I bet they will be thinking along those lines
Why does it matter to the Church of England whether someone is a woman or not a woman?
That is a good question asked in the article posted earlier by Robbo.
It’s not as if they are going to be doing
gynaecological examinations.
“Mr Kendy’s question is sadly a prime example of a passive aggressive question that is designed to upset the LGBT+ community and particularly the trans members in our midst.
Dr Jane Hamlin, president of Beaumont Society charity, which supports trans people, added: “I am puzzled why some people are so obsessed with defining ‘woman’.
Transwomen are upset by the question I am furious and deeply insulted by the answer.
To Dr Jane Hamlin I would suggest the search for an answer to the question ‘what is a woman’ started when it was decided anyone could be a woman all they needed to do was say so.
Is anyone every going to ask ‘What is a man?’
Does the Church of England have an official definition of man?
No wonder the church is dying!
God took a rib from Adam and made well God knows what it was.
It got pregnant apparently so woman would have been a great name to use.
If the Arch Bishop can take the 5 loaves and fishes down the Foodbanks and feed 5,000 I’ll listen to the guy.
God gave his trans non binary person to save our sinning souls???
Top story on the BBC in Scotland teletext page: Sajid Javid & Jeremy Hunt, 2 Tory leadership contenders, state there should not be another Scottish independence referendum for *at least* 10 years.
This demonstrates Scotland’s desperate need for proper news outlets and not one controlled by London. It also demonstrates the superior, arrogant and obnoxious attitude towards Scotland is guaranteed to continue should any of these 2 get the job. Perfect argument *for* Scotland reclaiming our right of self-determination.
__________
Sunday night tv and the BBC in Scotland showing more English cricket with England v India. Just to give us a wee break from showing English football with the England women’s team internationals. How thoughtful of them. Another example *for* Scotland desperately needing to take back our right of self-determination. TV controlled by Scotland for Scotland.
BTW, someone should tell Sajid Javid & Jeremy Hunt not to worry. If they don’t want Scotland having another independence referendum all they have to do is make sure Skanky Sturgeon stays in control of the glorified district council known as Holyrood.
Andy 72% of RUK residents in Scotland voted no. They represent 10% of the population. So essentially they got no decisively over the line.
The RUK residents have a vested interest in denying native Scots independence. Native Scots voted yes.
I have identified a major obstacle to independence.It is also democratically cruel on people who have lived here all our lives, to have our nation denied by essentially the country we are trying to break from.
For instance. Can you imagine when Norway voted for independence from Sweden. They allowed Swedes to overturn what Norwegians voted for.
It’s not so much about being civic or denying people a vote. It’s about one particular group from the colonial country blocking our wishes.
People from other countries who come to Scotland , don’t carry such baggage.
I don’t think we can just pretend it’s not an issue. It is a major issue. The Franchise isn’t right.
I have said before. Jimmy from Govan can be denied his independence by Gareth a 1st year student from Grimsby. We have to have some criteria to vote on a nations future. Its not just another election.
Whether that’s 10 year residency or something else, but not just an all comers franchise.
Recognition isn’t necessary in order to become a state. And states do not need to be democracies — there are plenty that aren’t. Also, definitions of democracy vary from country to country.
The Soviet Union, for example, regarded its democracies to be superior to Western Democracies which, when you get right into it, are strictly dominated by the so-called free press and intelligence services.
There’s no requirement for a referendum and, even looking at the EC/EU stance which is probably the most explicit of all international agencies in terms of favouring democractic mandates as a prerequisite to secession, there’s no demand that there be a referendum as such (any sort of democratic election would do).
One thing that a lot of aspiring states bump into when going through secession relates to the territorial integrity (sovereign rights) of the state they are separating from. The former Yugoslavia being a good example in relation to Croatia, etc.
In the case of the UK, then, international law recognises Scotland as being part of the UK and since that is in law there are potentially insurmountable legal/ownership rights that kick in which could make secession impossible without UK consent.
That’s the part that seems to scare people but it needn’t.
As with the former Yugoslavia, issues surrounding territorial integrity and sovereign rights disappear into thin air because secession itself effectively dissolves the legal entity that claims, or previously claimed, sovereign ownership — it has to be understood that state recognition and territorial integrity are intrinsically connected in international law, in such a way that a state would effectively cease to exist if a significant part was to secede.
In short, not only would there be no case to answer for if Scotland seceded without the UK Government’s consent, there would be no legally recognised state to make any complaint or case against Scotland. The UK in that case would cease to exist at the point of our departure.
Since that’s how it worked out with Croatia and other territories belonging to the former Yugoslavia, serving as a useful precedent, it’s hard to imagine how anyone could object to Scotland’s claim of statehood when so much exists in legal documents that confers recognition (The Treaty of Union itself, for example), not forgetting Scotland’s long and distinguished history as well as other historic documents.
“I know that there are multiple routes. I just believe we should use one with a chance of winning, which is realisable in the short to medium term, and which has more chance of being recognised by the international community and is likely to garner some support from experts in the field”
6 years we have been waiting for Sturgeon to make a move through this devolution route. I am not sure what it is that you have in mind as Short to medium term, but for me 6 effing years is loooong term.
Recognised by the international community? The international community recognises international law, and so do the experts.
“So far all the “cunning plans for indy” mob”
I am not sure who that mob is. But terminating a treaty is not “a cunning plan”. It is using the nuclear option. Why? Because we have been taken for fools for 7 years and we are fed up of waiting for something the loser in control of the SnP is never going to deliver.
“we just don’t accept it’s do-able”
Well, I do not accept your secession route is doable either for as long as you have Sturgeon colluding with the English government and conning us all.
“If it is so obvious or self evident that it is the case that a majority of Scottish MPs can simply repeal the Acts of Union and terminate the UK, show us the evidence”
How about you show the evidence they cannot?
I invite you to read the SNP manifesto of 1997:
“Scotland can regain its independence at any General Election. After the election of a majority of SNP MPs, the SNP will immediate initiate negotiations for independence with the UK government”
If Scotland’s MPs could not repeal the Treaty of Union, how could the SNP get the UK government to accept Scotland’s independence?
And if the SNP could in 1997 initiate negotiations for independence with the UK government and in parallel initiate negotiations with the EU, how come Sturgeon has been “unable” to do anything at all with three consecutive effing majorities?
“Show us the learned papers in the relevant journals, the support from international experts in constitutional law, international law, the law of Treaties, parliamentarians, international organisations”
I don’t have to. Just go and read the Vienna Convention in the law of treaties. It is all right there. The Treaty of Union 1707 is considered an old treaty, just like the Treaty of Utrecht is. Being old does not mean the treaties are not active. They are very much active. Nothing would the Spanish like more than hear the Treaty of Union 1707 being declared obsolete. Why? because that would mean the Treaty of Utrecht would be declared obsolete too. Old treaties are regulated by the conventional principles of international law, from where the Vienna convention on the law of treaties emerges. Pacta sunt servanda is one of those principles, as it is the assumption that fundamental conditions of the treaty MUST be followed. Take a look at Hansard. There are plenty of entries there, even by unionist politicians themselves, acknowledging that article after article of the Treaty of union has been breached one after other.
You will also read there just how conscious the lords are about the treaty and how careful they are of not proceeding with anything that could be construed as such and being used to repeal the treaty.
“That’s not how representative democracy works”
Oh, I see. Now from the strictes terms for democracy you go suddenly to a decaffeinated expression of “representative democracy” when convenient. Well then, what is a majority of SNP MPs if not a “representative democracy”, Andy? The UK is a parliamentary democracy, which means that what counts when making decisions is “representative democracy” in the form of a majority of our MPs.
Again, I invite you to take a look at Hansard. You will see there that the idea of the referendums is rather new and MPs and Lords were not particularly impressed with the practice not that long ago.
“If you want it changed, form your own party to enact the policies you want”
Now you are talking nonsense, Andy Ellis. So it is okay for you to demand absolute pristine democracy in the form of a majority of the vote for Scotland to exit the treaty of union, even when in the present circumstances it is impossible for that to happen unless the British state behaves democratically, but when I suggest that we have never been asked if we agree or not with Holyrood having or not the powers to terminate the treaty, you throw the toys out of the pram and ask me to look the other way? Why? Where is the difference? So you are okay for Sturgeon to make use of the SNP’s representative democracy to make decisions on our behalf for the scope of our parliament and without asking us or demanding a majority of our vote like , but you are not okay for her to use our majority of SNP MPs to actually terminate the treaty of union as it is our legitimate right to do?
Inconsistence or what?
“Some of us have been advocating a plebiscitary election for a while. there’s a lot more chance of that happening than the various “cunning plans for indy” ever happening”
Andy, you seem like a clever chap, but at present you are not acting like one. What is the point in having a plebiscitary election on independence when you are setting up a threshold for yourself that is impossible to achieve because your opponent has full control of the process and will do everything in their power to stop you, and if that was not dumb enough, you are actually removing the main obstacle they have from their way and putting that obstacle in yours?
“Many of us have been saying for years the legality issue WRT S30 order should have been put to bed legally years go”
Well, others, like me, have looked beyond the S30 and directly into the treaty of union, which at the end of the day, is what is keeping this union in one piece.
“If the referendum route is frustrated”
If? Andy this route has been frustrated since 2017. It is going nowhere. The only way you will have this route open is if the Uk gov and Sturgeon herself fear people will start to pursue a different route, one over which they do not have control.
“not those advocating UDI”
What is “UDI” in the context of a voluntary political union sustained by an international treaty that can be unilaterally terminated by any of the two partners that entered in the treaty?
Your “UDI” only exists in the context of the devolution route, for example if Nicola Sturgeon is to have a wild cat referendum and after a yes vote declares independence without repealing the treaty of union first with the SNP majority. That is “UDI”.
Following international law and terminating the treaty of union is not “UDI”, is terminating an agreement. Exercising Scotland’s right.
“ALERT! ALERT! Woo woo conspiracy theory klaxon!”
Oh dear. Andy, you batteries have run out of juice and your arguments have evaporated. What a shame.
“Will there be burly men outside polling places too Mia?”
In the age of technology when electoral registries, official “counts” and number of postal votes can be changed remotely, do they have to have to bother with burlies at the poll stations, Andy?
“Oh dear….blood and soil nativist klaxon too! ”
Go to Spain, go to Italy, go to France, go to Germany, go to Portugal, go to Denmark, go down to London, go to USA and dare tell them their franchise is “blood and soil nativism” and wait for their response. They will tell you to come down from your cloud of self-entitlement and do one, taking your klaxon with you.
Ancestry and length of residence are fundamental in EVERY SINGLE franchise I have looked at, including the UK one, the Gibraltar one and the Falklands one. Well, as far as I am concerned, Scotland’s should be the exact same. That you see it as blood and soil nativism? Sure, whatever you say Andy. I still think it is the only franchise that is fair. There must be a reason the world all over uses it.
” Self determination referendums don’t use the franchise of ALREADY INDEPENDENT STATES!”
Incorrect. Go and take a look at the franchises of Gibraltar, the Falklands and the franchise of New Caledonia.
“Virtually every such vote enfranchises all residents”
Incorrect. Go and read the franchises for Gibraltar and Falklands. Both UK colonies.
“Disenfranchising New Scots is the very definition of regressive, ethnic nationalism”
In your mind it might be. In reality, forcing unlimited representation of the colonial power in a supposed “self determination” exercise to the point of frustrating the vote of the native population is a blatant expression of brutal colonialism. What are you going to advocate for when that stops working to keep Scotland in the UK, to put the Scots natives in reserves, just like the Americans are putting the native Americans in and checking regularly their blood to see how much “native american blood” they still have?
“It completely defeats the purpose of “self-determination””
It only defeats the purpose of “self-determination” of the plantations of the colonial power. Whose self-determination are you advocating for, Andy, Scotland’s or the rest of the UK?
“You and those who agree with you are in a small minority”
Oh really, have you counted us all already?
“It doesn’t matter”
yes, of course it does.
“Nobody else cares”
that you don’t care does not mean “nobody else” does, Andy. Look beyond the tip of your nose. There is a whole world out there.
“It was 300 years ago”
And it is what is currently sustained the Union. Will you dare say that the treaty of union is no longer valid because it was ratified 300 years ago? I think that will make the Spanish very happy indeed!
“It’s not about me”
In this discussion it is, because it is you who is claiming this treaty is old, who is claiming that we should not look to what happen 300 years ago, and who is demanding we all accept as gospel a majority of the vote as “democracy” when democracy in this exercise is what we cannot have.
“it’s about what the people we expect to recognise out”
I expect the world to recognise international law. Don’t you?
“A clear majority of 50% + 1 in response to a clear question”
You cannot demand such majority as democratic when the exercise will not be democratic because your opponent is not prepared to play democratically.
“They won’t care that ordinary Scots didn’t have a vote 300 years ago”
Who is they? All the people I talk to about it care and rather a lot, actually.
“Get a grip”
YOU get a grip. You seem to be losing it.
“That’s not an argument, it’s just hysterical emoting and having a chip on your shoulder”
You are projecting, Andy, or just talking to yourself?
“Democrats don’t insist that gaining independence by a cunning ruse using seats and < 50% of the vote would be legitimate"
Yes they do, if it is a parliamentary democracy and a treaty that is regulated by international law was initiated by a simple majority of MPs.
"a majority of the seats in a prlaia still less accepted by the international community"
The international community accepts international law. The repealing of the treaty of union will be done in the context of international law.
"You're advocating driving at full speed up a constitutional and political cul-de-sac"
No, I advocate getting us out of cul de sac Sturgeon has thrown us in in her desperation to lock us into the devolution route to frustrate independence.
"The thresholds are normal and achievable"
In a normal democracy yes. But this isn't a democracy and our partner is seeking ways to frustrate the independnece vote, not to enable it.
"If we can't meet them, we don't deserve to be independent"
Bollocks to that, Andy. If we don't meet them in an undemocratic context we have to get the fuck out of that context as soon as possible and have the exercise in a democratic one.
" We should neither expect nor get special treatment"
And neither should have our opponent, so why you insist in giving them the special treatment?
"We have to abide by the same norms as all the other countries"
Do we know, Andy?
So how about we accept the franchise of any of them?
You have an awful lot of double standards, Andy and what very much looks like an unhealthy interest for the people of Scotland to be thrown again into a futile exercise where all the obstacles the British state has to stop independence are suddenly removed and put in our way to frustrate independence.
Are you sure you are seeking independence for Scotland and not to stop it, like Sturgeon is?
"We're not being done, diddled or conspired against"
Go on, prove it. I dare you. Prove that those 200,000 that disappeared of the registry in 8 months were not used to make the pro independnece vote smaller in 2015.
"we just don't have the political balls that other people have had"
Speak for your self, sweetie. You are the one that is bending over to the British state and collecting all their obstacles to put in our way.
"All we need to do is put an "X" on a ballot paper"
No, we don't. All what we need to do is to use our anti-union majorities to repeal the treaty of union. No need to put no X anywhere. Sturgeon has had us putting Xs for 8 fucking years.
Enough is enough.
"We’re meant to be a shining example of inclusive, civic nationalism to the world"
No, we are not meant to be example of nothing. What we want is to end the union and get on with our lives. For shining examples we already have the Hollywood movies, Andy.
"shoddy, regressive ethnic nationalism"
Because your shoody, regressive colonialism is so much better, isn't it, Andy?
"But I’ve officially lost any urge to even think about it"
Hallelujah, Praise the Lord!
Scots shouldn’t try to move the goalposts when they have been moved for them already.
I think I can see (lots of noisy chatter of late) how the fiddle goes down this time
– no “section 30”; it is too risky, no chance
– an “advisory” / “de facto” “plebescite” (which no one has to take seriously) which has to be “won” by an unrealistically high margin (which westminster would never countenance); a neat side effect of which would be that all the “other” indy parties have to stand down and let the SNP go alone …
I won’t go on about westminsters 5 year dictatorships won on 40% of a 50% percent turnout, so we get big tory majorities because 13 million cunts voted for them (- 3 million greedy cunts with their mouths near the spigot of the trickle down economy, plus 10 million stupid cunts at the left side of the bell curve, won over by meaningless, focus group tested, slogans) … that’s the game suckers and “sore losers”. FPTP gives us “strong govt”. Get yourself a battlebus and smash it in the marginals.
The union is a historical happenstance which should carry no legitimacy with current Scots; it should need to be confirmed, on a yearly basis, by a referendum which the union side need to win with 50% + 1 of the voters on the roll, not who voted (and the voters roll doesn’t include “tourists”, ex-pats, holiday home owners and temporary workers). Otherwise Scotland reverts to default status, independence.
– but this wouldn’t be “fair” … “rigging the game” … “changing the rules to suit” …. it’s “unconstitutional” (an amazing thing which doex and does not exist, and is important, or not, depending on the situation)
Stop chasing the missing exit in someone elses maze.
The British state propaganda channels now hard at work “ brainwashing”( principally the English electorate) into “ thinking” that all that matters on Earth at this moment is who will be the next “ messiah” to lead the next English government .( of course all talk of cost of food , energy & fuel cost explosions, have been deleted from the “ new narrative “ replaced by “ tax and national insurance reductions )etc” As a result by the time the new English PM is in place the electorate will be convinced that this will be a “ completely new government ( which literally it will be?) and not the “ same old Tories “ running the show?
Meanwhile , the electorate in Scotland probably aren’t so interested in the “ propaganda show” down south ( as the sun is shining and the school hold are underway ) . However hard the UK state media propagandists beam 24 hours a day into Scottish households , the “ brainwashing effect “ is somewhat diluted ( hopefully).
During the summer hols , is of course the time when “Tory coup’s “ are thrashed out and the new leadership and policies going forward ( including the strategy to “ retain” Scotland.).
Meanwhile , our SNP leadership , MP’s & MSP’s will of course be off sunning themselves until September.
The British state , The “ Born to rule” Tory party and their media propaganda arm never take holidays & come September everything will be in place for “ the new government “ ( another con on the English electorate) and the new Tory Secretary of State for Scotland will have been given “ his orders” .
Is it remotely possible that our First minister could come up with some “ unpredictable action” to “ knock them off the ball”?? How about resigning her government and holding a “ plebiscitary Holyrood vote or perhaps blocking her MP’s return to “ rabbleland” , or perhaps both . Surely there is something “ out of the mundane “ she can think of to “ shock & awe” the new “ messiah “ and the new incoming colonial “Scottish office” Lairdies ?
Exactly” Confused @0205 am” , on the ball when our lot are still in the dressing room ?
Merganser says:
10 July, 2022 at 10:05 pm
And further to my last post, imagine this scenario:
Supreme Court Judge to Lord Advocate:
It will be much simpler than that.
Holyrood is a bastard parliament with dubious parentage. The Lord Advocate is “kinda” obliged to respect the Scottish Constitution, but if Holyrood is a Westminster Establishment codified by the Scotland Act, then said components of Holyrood codified by Westminster rules might not be protected by the Scottish Constitution and very likely can be legislated upon by the Supreme Court.
The Supreme Court has no jurisdiction to interfere with Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty; When Joanna Cherry contested the prorogation of parliament, the Supreme Court couldn’t overrule the Court of Session. But because Sturgeon’s own strategy was to prevent Martin Keatings tidying up the issue, there is no principle of the Scottish Constitution which the Supreme Court needs to respect.
The Supreme Court at no time needs to venture outside it’s jurisdiction to rule on Westminster’s Scotland Act, because there is no occassion to delve into Constitutional matters, and the Supreme Court can make a very superficial adjudication which steers well clear of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.
Look at it in reverse… Because the Claim of Right is from Scottish Constitution which lies beyond the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, how can the Supreme Court make an adjudication based on it? But because there’s no Scottish adjudication to overturn, the Supreme Court can choose to interpret it’s brief to rule upon issues it can adjudicate over, and I expect that it will.
It all goes back to my Red Sovereignty / White Sovereignty argument about Holyrood.
There is a legitimate way to interpret Holyrood as a Scottish Institution and there is an equally legitimate way to interpret Holyrood as a UK / Westminster Institution. The ambiguity is very real and irreconcilable in detail. It’s a turf war.
It’s a turf war that only Scotland can ever win, but Westminster doesn’t have to win, because it’s the ambiguity and confusion which facilitates the plunder of Scotland’s resources, so long live the ambiguity and confusion.
The plunder only stops when Scotland gets its Constitutional act together.
Breeks @ 7:23 am
“The plunder only stops when Scotland gets its Constitutional act together.”
Don’t forget the socio-linguistic prejudice and racism resulting in ‘cultural obliteration’ (Fanon). Postcolonial theory tells us that the dominant national party elites’ unnecessary delay, deceit and petrification at a crucial stage in the independence/ decolonization process only stores up more serious problems for the future. Yes, the diptych has another side, much as Albert Memmi described it thus:
“A day necessarily comes when the colonized lifts his head and topples the always unstable equilibrium of colonization. For the colonized just as for the colonizer, there is no way out other than a complete end to colonization. The refusal of the colonized cannot be anything but absolute… the mere existence of the colonizer creates oppression, and only the complete liquidation of colonization permits the colonized to be freed.”
@Breeks
Interesting you mention the prorogation case as that is the perfect example of the wheels of supreme court justice being able to spin like a test free pro cyclcist when desired.
Problem for that court now must be that having demonstrated extreme prejudice in not addressing the Lord Advocates question immediately*, any and and all subsequent judgement on the matter is moot as it cannot be respected by either side – and any appeal (to a higher authority) is time barred on the same principle.
Obvious solution to dilemma is to apply the defacto referendum retroactively to 2015 (and estimate the number of “new scots” that voted – 500 would be enough to swing it on all counts – in event sustainable objections are made in respect of the green votes counting towards independence).
Confirmatory defacto referendum can then be held under new Scots rules so easy enough to ease fears of:
(a) MPs worried about losing seats (ie in competition with those who might want or need it more ), or
(b) New Scots having undue influence on the vote
simply by doubling the number of seats to 120 and giving the electorate 2 votes each..
* particularly given the blue on blue total (pretendy?) war that broke out (in midst of real war elsewhere) between chancellor of exchequer and prime minister last week
Tory leadership hopefuls say no indyref2 until 2033
Over to you Sturgeon.
What do you have to say
1. To the Scottish electorate
2. To these Tories who love to show Scotland their willies and let us know how much bigger they are than yours.
What if people in Scotland want a indyref2 in 2023? Not a pretend indyref but an actual indyref with a section 30? What are you going to do?
You did promise if we voted for you there would be an indyref2. We don’t want to wait 10 years, a generation or whatever these English politicians decide is the appropriate time. What are you going to do to get us a section 30 now?
If there is nothing you can do can you please let us know so that you can be replaced.
Both men were appearing on the BBC’s Sunday Morning show as they pitched for votes in the race to replace the Prime Minister.
https://archive.ph/xxRbU
Here’s How a New U.K. Prime Minister Will Be Selected
“Party leaders are chosen by an internal process normally in advance of a general election, or in the case that a leader steps down or is forced out. To take part in the race, a Conservative member of parliament needs to be nominated by at least eight colleagues. Likely candidates to follow Johnson include former finance minister Rishi Sunak, former defense secretary Ben Wallace, and former health secretary Sajid Javid, among others. A winner is selected from the nominated individuals in a two-stage process.
First, MPs whittle the candidates down in a series of secret ballots, whereby the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated at each round until two are remaining.
In the second stage, card-carrying grassroots party members vote on the final two candidates. (It’s possible that it never goes to a final run-off, as was the case in 2017, after May’s opponents were eliminated or eventually withdrew.) Anyone in the U.K. can become a member of a party, provided that they pay a membership fee—which is £25 ($30) for the Conservatives. The Conservative party has around 200,000 members. This means that the final decision to select Johnson’s successor will be made by roughly 0.29% of the British population.”
My question is why would they be on prime time TV pitching for votes when only 0.29% of the British population will be able to vote. Is it all just to remind Scotland to know their place.
Ruby
“My question is why would they be on prime time TV pitching for votes when only 0.29% of the British population will be able to vote. Is it all just to remind Scotland to know their place.”
How does two Tory leadership contenders campaigning make Scotland ‘know its place’? I’m genuinely curious how you make that connection…
Merganser says:
10 July, 2022 at 10:05 pm
And further to my last post, imagine this scenario:
Supreme Court Judge to Lord Advocate:
‘You didn’t have confidence that the proposed referendum would be legal; you then didn’t have the courage of your convictions, or you could have just said ‘no’, but instead abrogated responsibility and dressed it up as a question of law and passed it to us to decide to get you off the hook.’
Hear hear ! You can imagine the very brief discussion; ” Look-we both know this is a steaming pile of bat guano but you shove it upstairs to the Supreme Court and when they rule that its a steaming pile of bat guano we can use SNP Playbook #1 and blame the English for subverting Scots democracy’
Party No 2; ‘OK boss’
Tommo @ 1.17
What a wonderful legal phrase ‘steaming pile of bat guano’!
Made my day. I do hope the judges use it.
The SNP produces so much of this stuff they could make a fortune selling it. Could pay for a couple of ferries at least.
Whoever comes next as PM will be appointed by Conservative party members not the public and should have no authourity and the next scandal has arrived via Uber
@DavidRitchie 1:44pm
A very unedifying spectacle the Conservative leadership contest. Damaging to the political class in general. However at least they have a mechanism to replace a leader. Compare that to the SNP and the Scottish Government mechanisms to replace a leader?. We are as equally moribund. The only people winning are the broadcast media foaming at the mouth just now. Except when it comes to critical analysis of our leaders in Scotland. Anything goes and is allowed.
This isn’t a surprise, quite honestly it doesn’t matter who win the Tory leadership race or even if another party manages to get into power at Westminster every single one would deny our right to choose to leave this union.
“PENNY Mordaunt has become the fourth Tory leadership hopeful to say they wouldn’t allow a Scottish independence referendum to be held.”
The sleekit Tom Tugendhat, espouses the idea that Scotland is in a voluntary union, but that we (Scots) can’t ask again for a S30.
Be done with it, withdraw our MPs and end the treaty of the union.
Rumours further afield say the UK parliament is coming to an end anyway and Britain is converting over to one world governance, so judging by the way BJ tories and labour are displaying a thorough lack of democracy for the people along with NS snp help running both countries that make up Britain into economic disaster.
The destruction and take down can be attributed to over zealous ideology of legislation on trans gender, extreme ideology on the climate change issues, racism with favouritism, excessive war mongering that cause excessive migrations and exoduses of people.
The collaspe of our health services through covid, and the demise of all police and local councils from functioning and the corruption therein.
And latterly bleeding our countries dry of finances to fund and funnel more wars, with large amounts of money out of Scotland, Wales that is totally untracable.
I would say it it time to withdraw our MPs from Westminster and end the treaty of the pseudo treaty of the union.
When is it to late to do this?
There is no British democracy.
If the prime minister that was votec in by the people, is resigning due to any cause,
It is not the tories or Westminster that should select a replacement,
It should be the people.
It is the people [that are losing the choice they made for a prime minster.]
It should be put back to the people, anything else is a lie.
A lie of british democracy and no point in voting.
The sovereign Scots are about to lose their opportunity by faffing around on their back foot.
Always on the political defence, when they should be taken the lead,
Ruby
…it has been a while!
You wrote “My question is why would they be on prime time TV pitching for votes when only 0.29% of the British population will be able to vote. Is it all just to remind Scotland to know their place.”
Without wishing to sound rude – or dismissive, why would you believe it as to remind Scotland of anything? They are trying to become PM of the UK. Firstly, a quick calculation suggests that Sturgeon is First Minister of the whole of Scotland when less than 0.4% of the population of Scotland voted for her? But more importantly though, I think you need to reassess things. Your suggestion that candidates trying to become PM of the UK appear on Sunday morning politics shows – to p**s off Scots – suggests that you are not really in touch with reality Rubes!
Not only has the independence for Scotland lost their joy of the movement, it has lost its tenacity and grit,
I have given up hope over the long winded approach waiting to react to WM, to referendums, to mandates to NS, to Brextit, and now the supreme court
No wonder the numbers are dropping off that go to our marches, waiting waiting waiting, for some other body to decide when sovereign Scots can act Sovereign,
Exasperated on behalf of everyone is a under statement for those that can foresee a tough energy crises this winter and poverty already upon Scotland.
AT WHAT POINT WE WE REALISE. WE MISSED THE OPPORTUNITY THE SAME THE SNP ALWAYS DID.
Roger says:
11 July, 2022 at 12:36 pm
Ruby
“My question is why would they be on prime time TV pitching for votes when only 0.29% of the British population will be able to vote. Is it all just to remind Scotland to know their place.”
How does two Tory leadership contenders campaigning make Scotland ‘know its place’? I’m genuinely curious how you make that connection…
Are you winding me up Roger?
I wonder if the English people will ever ask why the Tories are so keen to hang onto Scotland.
Time to take our protests/marches to London.
During the leadership race might be a good time ask
Why do you want to hang onto Scotland when it’s costs the lovely English taxpayer so much?
@Big Jock 12.28 am
Andy 72% of RUK residents in Scotland voted no. They represent 10% of the population. So essentially they got no decisively over the line.
The RUK residents have a vested interest in denying native Scots independence. Native Scots voted yes.
They’re not RUK residents, except in the case of a relatively small number who may have properties and votes in both places. Any reasonably competent government that wanted to could come up with criteria to exclude such people or to exclude students from elsewhere in the UK. The numbers would be trivial in the general scheme of things. It SHOULD all be part of starting the process of nation building prior to actual independence. The Catalans for example put together a new voter register specifically for their referendum, but then again they also allowed Catalans abroad to register to vote.
The reason the “New Scots” vote was decisive was because not enough native Scots – who still make up >80% of the vote – voted Yes. Although turnout was high, it could have been higher. The Quebecois turnout for their 1995 referendum was 93.52%. Plenty of New Scots also voted Yes.
I have identified a major obstacle to independence.It is also democratically cruel on people who have lived here all our lives, to have our nation denied by essentially the country we are trying to break from.
For instance. Can you imagine when Norway voted for independence from Sweden. They allowed Swedes to overturn what Norwegians voted for.
I disagree with you. So do many others. As I’ve said to some of the nativists before, you don’t know what the implications would have been in 2014, or would be in future, if the independence movement had tried to disenfranchise a whole tranche of people, particularly where that hasn’t been the practice in other self determination referendums, which overwhelmingly use residence not birth criteria.
The Norwegians voted in 1905 – and excluded women who didn’t have the vote at all – but in those days also probably had relatively few non-Norwegians or “new” Norwegians in an age before mass travel and immigrations. They still voted for their own independence by > 99%.
It’s not so much about being civic or denying people a vote. It’s about one particular group from the colonial country blocking our wishes.
People from other countries who come to Scotland , don’t carry such baggage.
I don’t think we can just pretend it’s not an issue. It is a major issue. The Franchise isn’t right.
It’s an issue, just not that major an issue for most folk. Concentrating on it, and coming up with politically regressive plans to disenfranchise in particular New Scots from RUK, rather than those from other places, looks and feels anti-English. It looks and feels like a betrayal of civic nationalism.
You and others may feel that’s a price worth paying to offset your feeling of having been denied independence, but many of us disagree with paying that price, and just won’t accept it. Stu Campbell’s original criticisms remain valid. If we’re not persuading enough people, it’s because our arguments aren’t good enough. Moving the goalposts isn’t the answer and could be electorally self defeating.
Not many people accept the “Scotland as colony” schtick either. It’s a cop out and disrespectful to peoples who have endured actual colonisation. The UN doesn’t regard cases like Scotland, Quebec or Catalonia as de-colonisation, however hard Alf Baird tries to market the de-colonisation snake oil.
I have said before. Jimmy from Govan can be denied his independence by Gareth a 1st year student from Grimsby. We have to have some criteria to vote on a nations future. Its not just another election.
I agree it’s not just another election. I don’t know how many English students here temporarily got to vote in #indyref1, but find it hard to believe there were enough to make a huge impact. We do have criteria. We’re using much the same criteria as virtually every other self determination referendum since WW2. The question is rather why you feel we are uniquely required to do it differently?
Whether that’s 10 year residency or something else, but not just an all comers franchise.
A few self determination referendums have required residence periods of 24 months. Not a single one I’ve come across has required 10 years. Nativists are very fond of comparing apples and oranges on this issue: they love to assure us that no other country uses the franchise we do, or would tolerate enfranchising “New” Scots the way we have.
What they are doing of course – whether knowingly because it suits their agenda, or unknowingly because they haven’t done their homework – is falsely applying the criteria used by ALREADY independent countries for citizenship and voting rights, which is a different matter entirely. When Scotland becomes independent, it will be able to state its own criteria for residence qualifications to vote, or to gain citizenship, and decide who will be automatically eligible and who will need to apply, whether those in the country or those with Scots parents or grandparents in the diaspora much as the Irish do.
The narrative that we lost because we allow “all comers” to vote, and others in similar situations don’t is quite simply factually inaccurate.
The kind of Scotland you and many who believe in franchise restriction want to build isn’t one a lot of people would find attractive. It’s up to you to convince the majority it’s either achievable or a good thing. So far neither you or anyone else has come up with a convincing argument for change.
@Mia 1.50 am
Because your shoody (sic), regressive colonialism is so much better, isn’t it, Andy?
No reasonable folk buy the colonialism snake oil though Mia. Just because Alf Baird and a coterie of fringe groups have convinced themselves it is gospel, doesn’t make it real. The UN doesn’t accept it, otherwise Scotland would be on the list of Non Self Governing Territories wouldn’t it?
There’s a reason that most ordinary Scots spurn the colonialist narrative of course: it makes those using it sound like sub Siol na Gaidheal fanatics and cranks.
And yes, my civic, progressive nationalism IS much better than your nativist, regressive nationalism.
Scapegoating the “New Scots” who voted No in 2014 for the failings of the overwhelming native born majority isn’t the way to start the early days of a better nation.
Debates about the mechanisms for an Independence vote are welcomed. Until that time arrives when their is an actual vote irrespective of the terms and conditions, I will concentrate on supporting the lives of men and women in Scotland. Take the Humza intervention on prostate problems on STV tonight. A reaction to the revolutionary procedure available in England but not Scotland. Aquablation has no consequence of the future sexual capability of men after the procedure. Cost £4700 in a private clinic in London. BPH (Over enlarged prostate gland). A high pressure water dissection. Compared that to the chance of 50% sexual impotency on current procedures in Scotland. Humza we need Aquablation here in Scotland. A no brainer. Or are we males second class citizens in Scotland?
A few self determination referendums have required residence periods of 24 months. Not a single one I’ve come across has required 10 years. Nativists are very fond of comparing apples and oranges on this issue: they love to assure us that no other country uses the franchise we do, or would tolerate enfranchising “New” Scots the way we have.
—
Andy Ellis .
Not one person I’ve seen on here has said 10 years Forget comparing comparing apples and oranges you just come out with complete lies in this area. You know it.
Most people have just said it needs looked at. Like, temporary students, holiday home owners etc.
Stop lying and address the issue. If it was 5 % then that 5% may have been responsible for our loss in 2014.
It’s been stated many times most native scots voted for Indy. I’m not sure where it is recorded but you keep saying native scots never voted for Indy- that’s a lie or at best an assumption by YOU..
“A few self determination (sic) referendums have required residence periods of 24 months. Not a single one I’ve come across has required 10 years.” – Ellis
Look harder.
New Caledonia’s first self-determination referendum in 2018 required 20 years
To be registered, voters had to fulfill at least one of the following conditions:
1. Registration on the special electoral roll for the 1998 New Caledonian Nouméa Accord referendum (or fulfilled its requirements but not registered)
2. Born in New Caledonia and registered in the special electoral list for the provinces (LESP)
3. Residence in New Caledonia for a continuous period of 20 years
4. Born before 1 January 1989 and lived in New Caledonia from 1988 to 1998
5. Born after 1 January 1989 with a parent who was on the special electoral roll for the 1998 Nouméa Accord referendum (or who fulfilled its requirements but was not registered)
6. Born in New Caledonia with three years’ continuous residence (prior to 31 August 2018).
It is entirely lawful to restrict the franchise. (Pleading that New Caledonia is a ‘special decolonisation case’ omits all the other special cases there’s been that had different franchises)
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rachel-johnson-my-brother-boris-dreamt-of-being-world-king-and-he-almost-achieved-it/ar-AAZs4GJ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=1f2dc066d7d7442eaf3889d4e032aae0
Fecking hell., really. Didn’t England already have plenty of them like-Henry V111 , he was a fat useless philanderer too that hated Scotland.