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Wings Over Scotland

Footprints on the Moon

Posted on July 30, 2020 by

Well, here’s a place we’ve been before.

Especially alert veteran readers will recall that this site, too, has had its advertising removed from a railway environment for being “political”, on the flimsiest of grounds. We doubt whether excessively-named feminist activist Kellie-Jay “Posie Parker” Keen-Minshull will be overly distressed about this turn of events – our experience was that it generated far more publicity than the adverts themselves could ever have hoped for, PLUS we got all our money back. Win-win!

But it’s still a disturbing occurrence for all sorts of obvious reasons.

Twitter user Ben Cooper did an excellent deconstruction of the logical ramifications of the decision, which we can’t improve on (other than fixing a typo).

But while it speaks volumes about the idiot hypocrisy of “cancel culture” (Network Rail Scotland tweeted about it from an account decorated with the LGBT rainbow flag, which seems a fairly clearly political statement in itself), it’s especially pertinent when seen in the light of the Scottish Government’s new hate crime bill.

(Pssst, lads – that’s what ALL advertising is. That’s literally why advertising exists.)

Because the advert has clearly been deemed “hateful” despite literally containing nothing whatsoever but a declaration of affection for an Edinburgh resident and widely-beloved children’s author for her birthday.

And if even THAT can already be interpreted as “hate” and sanctioned – because of things it doesn’t say or in any way imply but which malicious imbeciles have read into it as a supposed hidden meaning – we invite readers to imagine whether there would be anything on Earth that a person could ever say under the new bill and feel safe against being arrested, prosecuted and potentially imprisoned for a “hate crime”.

This madness has to stop, readers.

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  1. 30 07 20 14:56

    Footprints on the Moon | speymouth

230 to “Footprints on the Moon”

  1. Ruglonian says:

    The SNP are fucked if they don’t reign in the madness sharpish!!
    (I have lots more to say on this, so let the conversation commence)

  2. Vivian O'Blivion says:


  3. G H Graham says:

    And while we’re at it, what does someone’s sexual preference have to do with running a rail network?

  4. red sunset says:

    Did anyone at Network Rail actually review the poster, or was this a kneejerk reaction?

  5. Corrado Mella says:

    Hell in a handcart.

    You lost the train in 2014: this is your punishment, folks.

    And I hope there’s more to come.

    Yes, you lost.

    I’m calling myself out here, after screaming for years in your face that you were on the wrong track, all softie-softie and ca’canny.

    The BritNazi Establishment will eat your guts and spit them out.

    And I’ll watch in amusement from another place.

    FCUK IT.

  6. Alice Timmons says:

    30 July, 2020 at 2:12 pm

    “The SNP are fucked if they don’t reign in the madness sharpish!!
    (I have lots more to say on this, so let the conversation commence)”

    The problem, of course, is that for a conversation you need some dissenting voices or novel viewpoint. I don’t think you’ll get, among Wings readers, much disagreement and there’s nothing much to say except, “Aye, you’re right”.

  7. John Moss says:

    Wow, Orwell’s new Thought Police in action. We better stand up to them or we’ll be next

  8. Doug says:

    Hibs fan complained maybes?

  9. Merkin Scot says:

    Not even ‘slippery slope’ stuff this time. Disgusting.

  10. N. Holmes says:

    I was born and grew up in Scotland and left school just as Thatcher was devastating the country forcing massive unemployment on anybody living outside the southeast of England. I was forced to leave Scotland in 1990 and move to London in order to get a job. This was not a matter of choice but necessity. When the independence referendum of 2014 happened, for the first time in my adult life I had a sense of hope and optimism about Scotland and started making plans to come home. I was one of the thousands who joined the SNP because of the 2014 referendum and I have marched, campaigned and donated to the independence cause and media. I returned to Scotland in 2018 after 28 years in London and since then, have gradually become increasingly cynical at what has happened to the SNP. I cancelled my membership after the Alex Salmond case. This gender self ID nonsense pushed by various idiots in and around the SNP and now this hate crime bill is the final straw if it goes through. I am now coming to terms with the fact that I have been let down badly. I am now starting to investigate the possibility of leaving Scotland again if independence doesn’t happen within a few years, this time it will be permanent – I am looking into emigrating to France and becoming a French citizen.

  11. John Dickson says:

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive! (Sir Walter Scott)

    Network Rail you’re not pulling the wool over any of our eyes. If the woke were really awake they would realise just how dumb they are.

  12. Kenny says:

    That last tweet by Network Rail Scotland… with a rainbow flag… saying they cannot allow one viewpoint over another…

    Surely that goes against the viewpoints of, say, the Catholic church, Presbytarians, various conservative groups: all of whom have the right to exist and have their views (and probably help finance the rail network!).

    If we all must have the same views… would it not be better just to give us all lobotomies? And safer too, from a legal point of view?

    … but then who decides which view is correct? Parliament? But the Scottish people is sovereign. So the SG is actually usurping power with such laws.

  13. Zen Broon says:

    How many such ‘innocent’ posters were displayed on her other birthdays, then?
    I’m guessing none.
    Given the controversy kicked off just last month, you don’t have to be a professional semiotician to work out the intention is support for Rowling’s viewpoint.
    Doesn’t matter if you support Rowling’s position or not, it is a political statement and Network Rail Scotland seems quite right in taking it down.

  14. Stuart MacKay says: has a pretty entertaining set of tweets.

    The railways used to be the backbone of the country. Not any longer. Must be great to have a business that can say FU to 53% of your customers.

  15. winifred mccartney says:

    We really are now in a fantasy world being led by a few people who have infiltrated up to high levels in many parties and seem to have a lot of power and sway. The SNP has to get a grip on this before it destroys them and everything they stand for.

    At least JK Rowling is able to separate fact from fiction and it seems to me that the people complaining with their crazy – ‘no such thing as a woman’ rhetoric have landed in their own made up fantasy world that only they recognise.

  16. Martin says:

    “Zen Broon says:

    30 July, 2020 at 3:05 pm

    How many such ‘innocent’ posters were displayed on her other birthdays, then?
    I’m guessing none.”

    Internet random makes assumption and bases opinion on that. Actual facts for either assumption or conclusion: 0.

    This is the issue.

  17. Graeme says:

    I utterly despise JK Rowling and if I remember correctly she not only had some pretty strong political views during the indyref but generously donated to the campaign for better together.

    So I don’t particularly care if they rip down any poster of affection for her,

    All of that said that poster was not in any way political and whoever put it there had every right to do so, this is getting scary now

  18. Me Bungo Pony says:

    The Network Rail Rainbow logo is in support of the NHS during the Covid crisis, not LGBT people.

  19. Polly says:

    Why take it down when rainbow flags are these day plastered on everything. We know why of course. As other people say above the fact they’re choosing a viewpoint or political side to disassociate with isnt being neutral it is choosing a side to censor. It means all rainbow flags should also come down and everyone offended by trans rights being pushed by so many organisations should make complaints about those type of ads. Mass complaining works when they do it, maybe we need to step up our mass campaign too.

  20. Breastplate says:

    Zen Broon,
    I thought it was quite an obvious and deep political point about the injustices regarding the Chagos islanders, so I would have to say you are wrong

  21. Allium says:

    God, the irony is chilling, to do this in the home of the Enlightenment.

    Postmodernism has killed reason.

  22. SilverDarling says:

    It is bizarre that the Pride flag and the Pastel Trans flag have so easily become embedded to such an extent that organizations like Network Rail and even the Police do not see how political they are. It seems no longer to represent gay rights but to proclaim a stifled terrified stance that means no discussion or questions are allowed ever.

    I see Kirsty SNP has confirmed that jobs for SNP staffers are more important than representing the Scottish people. Good to see it in black and white finally.

  23. David Rodgers says:

    J K Rowling doesn’t come from Edinburgh or Scotland and she gave a lot of money to stop independence so this discussion is fairly irrelevant IMHO.

  24. CameronB Brodie says:

    Proper woke is really awake to the structural violence committed against women. These TRA science deniers are as far from woke as it get. They are simply delusional and many are fascists. There is a strong association between misogyny and right-wing political views, especially the alt-right.

    Clinical Psychology Review, Volume 80, August 2020
    The phenomenology of gender dysphoria in adults: A systematic review and meta-synthesis

  25. kapelmeister says:

    There are now adverts sternly warning against covid “misinformation”. By which of course they mean don’t dare debate and just believe what you’re told by authority. As the pharma giants stand by to make truck loads of money from selling vaccines (again).

    Now you can’t display an innocuous poster about an author.

    The independence campaign must remain “parked” decrees Thickola Sturgeon.

    Time for a new counter-culture.

  26. chossy says:

    Dear people of the world,

    You’ve fucked it mate, it’s fucked.

  27. Nigel says:

    Quote: “I am now starting to investigate the possibility of leaving Scotland again if independence doesn’t happen within a few years, this time it will be permanent – I am looking into emigrating to France and becoming a French citizen.” Unquote.

    I am in the same frame of mind, except for me it would be Ireland (did consider the Netherlands) and I have advantage of already being an EU citizen.

    I think many are thinking along these lines. What damage would this do to SCO in the long term?

    I would take a thriving international on-line business with me…loss of tax revenue, cash, assets etc. What would others take with them? What would the effect of the loss of tax revenue and innovation/brains/qualified/capable people be then? Why should we continue to support a party, which has thrown us under a bus, indy-wise, for no gain other than bolster some SNP politicians that are increasingly taking the view that they have an unassailable right to govern? Labour made that fatal mistake…

  28. Me Bungo Pony says:

    Also, is there not a wee bit of hypocrisy here? If the poster had hinted at support for the GRA or Hate Speech bill, would a few of the “offended” on here not have taken the polar opposite view regarding its removal? And would some not have been conflicted by their hatred of the GRA and wanting the poster removed …. but then having to grit their teeth and bare it lest they be seen to show support for the Hate Speech legislation?

    Not a fan of either bill, and would be happy to see both heavily amended, but I’m not going to get all het up by a J K Rowling poster. I agree with her on this but little else.

  29. Ruglonian says:

    Alice Timmons @2.32pm
    There’s usually someone on here, sooner or later, that likes to pick an argument just for the sake of it 😀

    In the absence of that, we’ll need a devil’s advocate to kick off proceedings.
    Any volunteers?

  30. Allium says:

    Personally, I would eagerly applaud a public TRA campaign for GRA reform, posters included. It would put paid to the sleekit way they have been trying to sneak the legislation through in so many countries up till now. #NODEBATE is still a thing, but it shouldn’t be.

  31. susan says:

    Don’t look at me Ruglonian lol I agree with you.

  32. Michael Laing says:

    Until a few months ago, I felt very strongly that people’s sexual preferences and what they do with whom in private was nobody else’s business, and that it in no way justified any sort of discrimination or disapproval. However, I’ve got really fed-up with people constantly shoving their sexual orientation in my face. I don’t go around telling everybody I’m heterosexual. It’s nobody’s business! It seems to me that it’s the sexual deviants, the deluded individuals who think they were ‘born in the wrong body’ and the men wearing lipstick and dresses who are making an issue of this and turning people against them. A couple of years ago, did anyone really care? If things continue in their present direction, I suspect there’s going to be a backlash.

    Without a doubt, I can say that many people are more prejudiced towards those who don’t conform to social and sexual norms than I am, so if I’m thoroughly pissed-off with this whole business, I can only imagine how alienated your average non-politically-aware person must be. Those pushing the PC/self-ID/anti-biology agenda are simply alienating people, including those who until now have been the most accepting of sexual diversity.

    Incidentally, I saw a report on current events in Portland, USA, earlier today, which stated that tear gas is particularly dangerous to “womb bearers”. I’m absolutely sick-to-death of this fatuous euphemistic language.

  33. Q says:

    [Reference: Unperson]

  34. Andrew F says:

    Zen says, in effect, that expressing support for someone’s viewpoint should not be permitted.

    Interesting world you have planned for yourself there.

  35. Dave Hansell says:

    Martin 3:12

    Quite. This represents yet another example of assuming what you aim to deduce in order to arrive at the planned conclusion which drives the subjective reality inside the head of those who live in this fantasy world.

    Forget the “left and right” axis. The world today is defined by those who are in the reality based community and those who arn’t.

    At present the twelve year olds have barricaded themselves in the control room.

    As implied in the article and some of the comments, the insatiable appetite, once fed, will never ever be satisfied and will come for more and more ordinary people if we carry on down the route of guilt and punishment by subjective mob rule allegation which drives a coach and horses through due process standards and principles.

  36. vlad (not that one) says:

    Alice Timmons 14:32
    “there is not much to say other than “Aye, you’re right”.”
    Aye, right.

  37. Bob Mack says:

    This is just ludicrous. There exists very few posters in the world which could not be politicised for one reason or another.

    Are we really going to stifle word art and visual comment?

    Chris Cairns would be out of a job.

  38. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry for being all edumicational, but I do know a bit about this stuff and want to help the Scottish government avoid undermining the validity of Scots law. The Justice Secretary is monitoring this site, apparently, but I don’t think they can be accused of being open minded or impartial.


    In this paper I explore the intercorporeal phenomenologies of Jean-Paul Sartre, Maurice Merleau-Ponty and Simone de Beauvoir by thinking through their views on being-with-others and sexuality. For Sartre our being-for-others is always revealed to us in conflict as shame and we are stuck thinking of the other as either a freedom or a body.

    Merleau-Ponty, however, offers us the notion of sexuality as an atmosphere of meaning we can undertake that affects our entire lived being (body-subject). Beauvoir reveals to us the gendering of the erotic encounter and thus a new way of phenomenologically experiencing ourselves and others as bodies.

    freedom; erotic encounter; intercorporeal phenomenologies; sexuality

  39. Stuart MacKay says:

    Me Bungo Pony,

    > Also, is there not a wee bit of hypocrisy here?

    Clearly you’re new to this politics thing. Whatever it takes to defeat the forces of evil in the “War against women”, whatever it takes.

  40. Brizee says:

    N. Holmes says:
    30 July, 2020 at 2:58 pm

    I was born and grew up in Scotland and left school just as Thatcher

    Don’t leave – Have a look at the Digital Scottish Covenant and if you agree with it, sign it. Once you get your unique Digital ID you can join the Digital Assembly and help mold the country in the direction you’d like it to be. Details here –

  41. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Stuart MacKay 4:31pm

    Hardly new to it. Been posting as Me Bungo Pony for over 15 years including on this site.

    But something else occurs to me. How do we know the poster was in support of Rowling’s views on GRA? It is Edinburgh after all and, given her anti-independence views, it could quite easily be a Unionist poster taking a pop at indies dislike of her?

    And, as some seem to have missed it, I will re-iterate the fact that;


  42. Intractable Potsherd says:

    “Me Bungo Pony says:
    30 July, 2020 at 3:25 pm
    The Network Rail Rainbow logo is in support of the NHS during the Covid crisis, not LGBT people.”

    Slightly off-topic, perhaps, but was it merely coincidence that the widely-accepted symbol for LGB support became the symbol of support for the NHS, and displayed everywhere?

  43. Beaker says:

    @David Rodgers says:
    30 July, 2020 at 3:41 pm
    “J K Rowling doesn’t come from Edinburgh or Scotland and she gave a lot of money to stop independence so this discussion is fairly irrelevant IMHO.”

    In other words, you condone this action without really understanding the ramifications of it.

    I’ve said this previously: if the legislation is passed, then someone is going to raise a formal complaint about JKR with the police, who will be duty bound to investigate it.

    That means it is likely she will be detained for an interview. (legal eagles here can confirm you are only arrested if a charge is imminent?). Things could well lead onto a charge.

    Have you any idea of the fallout that would cause? Who the fuck would want to live in an independent country where there are laws in place that effectively shut down free speech, and shackle the media?

    You cannot imply that the law is fine if it results in the arrest of a unionist supporter. FFS the Scottish Government is responsible for the welfare of all citizens living in Scotland, regardless of politics, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc etc. More importantly, everyone must be treated equally. Remember that.

  44. Me Bungo Pony says:

    To what end Intractable Potsherd? I thought (perhaps wrongly) primary school kids started it.

  45. red sunset says:

    Carlot has resigned ?

  46. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Beaker 4:54pm
    “In other words, you condone this action without really understanding the ramifications of it”.

    This sort of action has been happening for years to all sorts of posters, as evidenced by the Wings posters demise long before the Hate Speech bill was being debated.

    A poster I put up in the College refectory in 1984 advertising an end of term “do” was torn down because it was apparently condoning excessive drinking. I mean …. students …. excessive drinking!

    This “issue” has all the hallmarks of a “storm in a tea cup” whipped up by an obsession wit something that isn’t even in force yet and, in my opinion, never likely to be in its present form.

  47. CameronB Brodie says:

    Even the slightest understanding of legal epistemology would tell you that introducing gender-ideology into Scots law, would destroy the potential for universal and impartial justice in Scotland. The GRA amendments would essentially turn Scots law into a tool of totalitarian power. And the Hate Crime bill would ensure there would be virtually no way of undoing this vandalism of the law.

    Legal Education, Feminist Epistemology, and the Socratic Method

  48. callmedave says:

    Jackson Carlaw resigns.

  49. CameronB Brodie says:

    I meant to post this earlier.

    International Journal of Feminist Approaches to Bioethics, Volume 11 Issue 2, Fall 2018, pp. 1-13
    Introduction: Feminist Phenomenology, Medicine, Bioethics, and Health

  50. James F. McIntosh says:

    Just another way for those unionist plants to alienate SNP voters and encourage them to give up on the party —- sorry talking about the gender/ hate speech issues.

  51. Oneliner says:

    Isn’t Network Rail run from London?
    Is advertising policy decided by Edinburgh Waverley?
    Could this decision have been taken by a local jobsworth?

  52. Polly says:

    Stuart MacKay says:

    ‘Whatever it takes to defeat the forces of evil in the “War against women”, whatever it takes.’

    I agree. And the same with independence, all and everything should be used except violence. As far as Network Rail goes its only Network Rail Scottish twitter which uses the rainbow, the main UK one doesn’t have it. So not a coordinated display of support for the rainbow warriors.

    About Jackson Carlaw resigning, I’m wondering if we’re getting into the territory we were with Labour not so long ago. His dire performance today and Mike Russell’s fighting spirit is placing Tories in the minority at Holyrood for not standing up for devolution in Scotland might be the start of musical chairs in that party as the indyref was toppling leaders in labour.

  53. Polly says:

    ‘At present the twelve year olds have barricaded themselves in the control room.’

    Never heard a better description of some of the things now being proposed.

  54. callmedave says:

    UK website very slow to give out today’s information should be 16:00hrs. 🙁 I have given up waiting. Maybe the news to bad.



    BBC saying ONS figures now show England has the highest excess death rate in Europe from Feb to June 2020.

    Jackson Carlaw may not believe it! OH!…He’s resigned!

    Boris tracing app abandoned says BBC.

    N.I. now using the Eire tracing app from today and Scotland to follow asap says FM.

  55. iain mhor says:

    Well, astonishing.
    Yet, who cares about what lies behind the story, or understands enough to care, or understands and cares and does nothing about it, or feels (or is) poweless to do so?

    I recall at the time of OBFA, Wings ran quite a few features on it and its repeal, including numerous polls. Much of the data (not just Wings polls) appeared to show an overwhelming support for and opposition to, the repeal of the OBFA – yet it was repealed.

    I recall posting at the time, to the effect that if repealed it would stay repealed, no matter how potentially incandescent the populace might feel. The measure of their displeasure (sorry) would be seen at subsequent elections. It wasn’t.

    Even if you did not have a predilection for marching with the fiery cross against something you cared about, at the least you’d recall enough emotion about it to deselect those responsible. That did not happen with the OBFA. The real answer to ‘Who cares?’ turned out to be ‘No-one very much’ *Waves at Mr Kelly

    In the same way, much as I have no wish to see the latest ridiculous hate bill pass – a bill spawned from the same minds who bubble ‘A poster offends us’ – there will be few mass protests and it’s liable to become legislation, it’s inevitable.
    In the same fashion, it is doubtful those responsible will be ‘deselected’ at the next electoral opportunity – or the following.

    Indeed, if this ‘bill’ is so heinous, if those who spawned it begin to seriously and adversely affect the majority of the electorate and the electorate do indeed go to the polls in anger; those responsible will still have had a healthy term in office before it happens.

    It’s a political football, much like the OBFA (pun) That is to say, it was important the bill did pass, in order that the ‘opposition’ could then move to have it repealed and flaunt a great victory.
    The OBFA was the passing and repeal of a ‘popular’ bill – however ‘white knights riding to the rescue, to rid the peons of a great evil’ is the same concept whether legislation is popular or not.

    Amazing that a single incongruous news item such as JK’s ‘poster’ can encapsulate so much of current politics – For it’s not merely Scotrail, an LGBT logo and their irredeembale logic, Scottish government and independence – it’s a global phenomenon.

    It may look like a new world but its just the same cycle of the manipulation of the violent and the fearful.
    A topsy turvy world, where falling down the rabbit hole, an SNP MSP could say those sporting YES badges at football matches should be ‘susceptible to police action’ and Unionist MSP would effectively oppose him.

    Offended. Offensive. Yup that’ll work as synonyms for Violence and Fear.

  56. kapelmeister says:

    As Jackson Carlaw motors off into political obscurity (a short journey for him) who next as BoJo’s northern cipher?

    Buggins turn Ballantyne?

  57. SilverDarling says:

    Posted in error on previous thread.

    Does that mean Annie Wells will be the acting leader of the ScotTories?

  58. winifred mccartney says:

    Does that mean Annie Wells is leader of the opposition in Scotland. Heaven help us all.

  59. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Does it really matter who replaces Jackass as Tory leader at Holyrood?

    My betting is, the Tories will more and more by-pass Holyrood, all important statements will be made by Alistair Jack(ass), and, first chance they get, they will shut-down Holyrood.

    With an 80 seat majority and the way the Scotland Act was structured when it was put in place, they can virtually do what they like – unless the SNP gets their finger out and goes down the constitutional route to Independence.

  60. callmedave says:


    It has just been announced: SUN

    The Government has today announced it WON’T be releasing the daily coronavirus death toll for the UK after an urgent review was launched.

    The figures are usually released by the Department of Health and Social Care every day.

    But following concerns over the way deaths are recorded, it’s now been announced that reporting will be suspended pending an investigation.

    We’ll all be in the dark now then

    Panic at WM maybe the BBC will confirm it.

    That’s all folks. 🙂

  61. Beaker says:

    Bugger, Carlaw just resigned (erm pushed more likely). Saying that, who the hell will replace him?

    Surely Ruthie is not returning?

  62. Shug says:

    Cummings decided to get rid of project arse

    Might be a nice guy but sitting with a lost cause

  63. Yit mair divide-n-conquer rubbish, get folk talking aboot utter shite instead ay real problems. This idiocy is whit happens when ye lit the mentally ill hae a wee taste ay power fir the first time in thir confused lives, n they get revenge oan ither folk fir onything they’re suffered, real or imagined, in the past. N it’s sanctioned by the worthless SG tae. Scotland is noo an embarrassment oan the world stage. Wonder when they’ll start burning Rowling books. Ah dinnae even like her, eftir her chucking a million quid it Bitter Together during the indyref, bit the wey she’s been treatit, included by folk her shitey films made rich n famous, hus been utterly disgusting..

  64. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Beaker @ 5.43pm

    Now is the time for all bad buffalo girls to come to the aid of the party, perhaps.

  65. Shug says:

    Johnny Beatie all stompy shouty with Mr swinney
    Why don’t you compare scottish deaths with similar countries in europe

    Possibly cause they can control their borders

    The BBC are really amaturish

  66. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Looks like the slammer for me as all of my paintings feature the 60`s wall-daubed slogan: TONGS YA BASS. A spell in the Bar L for painting what is sure to be construed as offensive to the Chinese community, by certain fucking headcases, might just be the making of me.

  67. A Person says:

    Wouldn’t get too excited about Carlaw quitting folks. It’s not outwith the realms of possibility that whoever replaces him will take NS to task on GRA and hate crimes. A right-wing backlash has taken place in England and America- it could happen here.

  68. Maybe Stu could pull down new poster Bungo,

    don`t need a reason,

    outside teaching it a wee lesson in what it`s like to be a poster removed

  69. Clapper57 says:

    Posted on previous thread in response to @ Silverdarling comment on will it then be Annie Wells.

    @ SilverDarling @ 5.31pm

    Hi Hope you are well.

    Does she, Annie Wells , not share deputy post with Liam Kerr.

    I read they are touting Douglas Ross to go for it….mind you his majority was greatly reduced at last GE but really..come on.. for him to go back from whence he came……really ???

    I always thought Michelle Ballantyne would get the leadership…Pro Boris….Pro Brexit….Pro EVIL…oops sorry Pro EVEL..nope right first time Pro EVIL….and I think that even though she lost to Carlaw some may reconsider her if she stands again…..especially as he has bailed out after such a short time….mind you did he jump or was he pushed….

    Definitely proves what we all knew THEY AIN’T WINNING while they pretended they were/are…..”Strong and Stable” with the Tories Lol……okaaaay while branch office leadership is like a piggin revolving door….one in one out one in one out etc etc….Lol

    Richard Leonard Labour branch manager will be next…if he is then Scots really really need to get a grip….cause it proves they are panicking big time about losing Scotland….

    Take care and have a nice evening ?

  70. Gregor says:

    What kind of fool would open a Pandora’s box…

  71. Scot Finlayson says:

    30 July, 2020 at 5:57 pm
    Maybe Stu could pull down new poster Bungo,’

    Nah, free speech for all, including those you don’t agree with, or next thing you end up pulling down JK Rowling posters from train stations, as bad as the Zoomer Crew. Just scroll on by. 😉

  72. Walter Jones says:

    Carlaw sees the approaching buffers, and is jumping before the inevitable catastrophic collision.

    The Blue Tories, like their Red brothers in arms, are finished in Scotland.

    Stammer has big plans for Scotland, and that bumbling english idiot Leonard is not Included in them.

    So you will see the Red and Blue Tories scrambling about looking for new leaders.

    That just leaves us with Sturgeon to deal with

    If only she would resign as quickly as Carlaw.

  73. callmedave says:


    Tory Leader Annie Wells ‘farrago’….. just thinking a nice fit.

  74. Bob Mack says:

    Has not the Rev lost his Twitter account on two occasions for mentioning disapproval of trans aims. Have others not had the same treatment.

    This is more than a poster in a station. This is censorship at its best.( Or worst)

  75. ahundredthidiot says:

    The NHS rainbow is rainbow shaped.

    Network Rail have rainbow colours in their logo and can say all day long it is for the NHS, but it is not the NHS shaped rainbow (stupid bloody idea anyway and far too close to LGBT for anyone’s liking, bordering on deliberate).

    When Companies put rainbow colours all over their webpages – or balloons above the store sign, its for LGBT, not the NHS – they will use the NHS rainbow for that.

    So, its effectively a matter of opinion.

    anyway – this is what happens when the exception becomes the rule………..combined with weak leadership – which seems to be EVERYWHERE at the moment.

  76. GeeH says:

    Right, listen up you lot – I keep hearing about everyone leaving the SNP… Why? Do you actually want them to succeed in their woke revolution? Every single one of you should be signing up to the SNP right now (you can still vote for an indy party on the list all you want, no-one gets to see your ballot paper). Then get yourselves a pass to conference and vote the numpties off the NEC. Get this nonsense stopped right now. Membership will be especially important if you live in the Edinburgh Central constituency, your vote will be required to get Joanna Cherry nominated and put to the top of the list. Same for any other constituency where they’ll be trying to install a trans lobbying candidate.

    The South of Scotland region will need members to vote to keep Joan McAlpine at the top of the list too – imagine she loses her place to some idiotic candidate because the trans lobby stuffed the branches full of their supporters. Doesn’t bear thinking about, we need her in Holyrood to be fighting this insanity.

    You can leave the party again after conference/nominations. Seriously, go on, get joining. Pass it on.

  77. Robert Louis says:

    This is nuts. Just nuts. What in heavens name, is wrong with such a poster?? She is perhaps one of the most famous current residents of Edinburgh, and indeed, Scotland.

    Yet, some greetin face science denying, reality denying trans clowns, decided they were ‘offended’ by it??? Are you kidding me???

    I hope Scotrail get sued. This pathetic nonsense has got to stop.

    And then we have the SNP. Wholly and completely brainwahsed by this trans rubbish. Thinking they are merely an extension of gay rights. They aren’t. The tran cult agenda is a duplicitous one, and the SNP leadership need to wake up fast. It has nothing to do with helping trans folk, many of whom disagree with their nonsense.

    Of course once Humza’s draconian hate crime censorship of free speech bill is made law, I’ll not be able to say anything about this, and those who put that poster up would be arrested and could go to jail. Al it would need would be for somebody to find it hateful and to cause offence to them individually, no other proof needed. Off to sughton jail you’ll go.

    The SNP Scottish government is very, very qucikly making itself a laughing stock. What an absolute joke of a government. Seriously, what an absolute shower of diddies. Wasting time on idiotic legislation that nobody wants or needs, instead of leading Scotland to independence and back into the EU.

    I know folk won’t like me saying this, but I really think the SNP need booted out of power, so they can rwgain some sanity and start to focus on independence again. They are delusional and people like Humza, and Pete Wishart, seem quite, quite drunk with power and status. I really don’t think they can be fixed, and certainly not with the current leader and her husband controlling the party.

    Tom ake matters worse, today they are trying to use every dirty trick they can, to stop an excellent candidate standing for an Edinburgh MSP seat. A blatant gerrymandering of their own processes. If Joanna Cherry needs to raise 10K, under the new made-up rules in the SNP, she should do a crowdfunder, and will likely raise it in a couple of hours.

  78. Gregor says:

    How does an emotionless and expressionless society work ?

  79. Izzie says:

    Carlaw resignation. What a gift answer to the ‘once in a generation argument,’ Carlaw had just said to Ponsenby on STV circumstances change all the time.

  80. Famous15 says:

    Mibbes Nicola has a cunning plan for independence and mibbes it is working?

    I’ll get ma coat. “Frank get the door”

  81. twathater says:

    I am just finished reading the previous post where I posted a comment and a means to bring the SNP lunacy to heel

    Response there came nil,nada,nothing , yet all we got from posters is how WE NEED to vote SNP to keep them in power as to do otherwise would only let in the hated incompetent unionists with their reviled hated policies and their forced denial of independence

    BREAKING NEWS that’s EXACTLY what you will be doing if you elect the CURRENT SNP back into power without FORCING CHANGE

    Do you people who support the SNP unequivocally not realise that the SNP hierarchy can READ and are quite happy or maybe even ecstatic that independence supporters are so FRIGHTENED by the thought of a unionist party getting into power that they will accept ANY SHITE policies or ideas without rebellion as long as we elect the SNP who maybe eventually decide on independence

    I SUPPORT SC’S proposal of a plebiscite election
    I SUPPORT a plebiscite early election
    I SUPPORT other indy parties on the list
    I SUPPORT a legal challenge through the COS, ICJ, and THE UN
    I SUPPORT a indy ref to be held before 1st Jan 2021

    BUT I DO NOT SUPPORT electing the SNP back in to power without them changing their utter contempt for our VOTES , I for one will NOT be BLACKMAILED by a shower of arseholes who DO NOT LISTEN

    If we do not sort this clusterfuck we DESERVE the unionist derision , haud on Corrado Mella I think i’ll join you

  82. callmedave says:

    Big Brian suggested that Carlaw wasn’t cutting it with his approach on policies or attacking the SNP or with his fellow party colleagues.

    Enter Douglas Ross, full of punch, full of youthful enthusiasm his tip for the top job. 🙁

  83. Bob Mack says:


    You do what you like. I for one do not want a Unionist government in Holyrood at any price.

    Do you know or understand that the first things they will put to the sword are all the measures currently in place to protect the poor. Tuition fees ,eff eff etc.

    Then comes the proposition that there is no need for Holyrood by the government in charge. What a gift to say ok shut the doors.We’re finished.

    Going on a strop does not fix the issue

  84. iain mhor says:

    *correction 5:26pm, penultimate para: ‘Network Rail Scotland’ not ‘Scotrail’
    Yeah, well, small details can be important.

  85. bipod says:

    Dithering nicola was so shocking and absolutely disgraceful today. Schools will belatedly be allowed to reopen in some capacity in August but offices will remain closed until the 11th of September and even then its only a maybe if they can go back after that. Why? Well there hasn’t been a death in half a month but there is a very, very serious second wave “cluster” of 8 cases in Glasgow and its unknown if any of them are seriously ill, but dithering nicola has a goal of zero covid, so everything must remain shut.

    You have to wonder if any of her public health “experts” have informed her that zero covid is an impossible goal unless she intends to prevent anyone from coming in and leaving Scotland, and even then it would be a long shot.

    And in the mean time she is still unfazed and unconcerned about the massive economic, educational, health, mental and social damage she is doing to people with her farcical lockdown and social distancing policies.

  86. Andy Ellis says:


    As a resident of Edinburgh central and former party member, forgive me if I cast doubt on your cri do coeur for folk to join the party to cleanse it of the woke contagion. What do you think has been happening over the past few years?

    Weren’t you paying attention when Grouse Beater was expelled, Hanvey and Findlay politically lynched, Salmond fitted-up, McAlpine and Cherry subjected to dogs abuse…..? Did all of these things pass you by? Remind us of the party’s responses to these. Better still, visit the timelines of some of those in the party responsible for such actions positively crowing about it.

    Forgive us if we don’t feel like standing shoulder to shoulder in a party that not only tolerates but positively promotes such behaviours, still less actively join or re-join!

    There comes a point when the game isn’t worth the candle. Like quite a few others I’ve concluded the party can’t be saved, nor is it worth saving.

  87. schrodingers cat says:

    voting snp on the constituency paper is a must, doing otherwise will let the unionists in. no new indy list party has any intention of standing candidates in constituency, even stus wos list party wouldnt do this.

    after saying that, tx for the vote of confidence, i pretty much support all 5 of your points. especially point 2. however, i genuinely dont know if bringing forward the HE can even be done or there is time?

    there is talk of crowds at football matches at end of aug, so the idea of covid stopping the election is fading??

    i do sympathise with the lack of uptake by commentors about which processes could be brought to bear and force the snp’s hand on these issues.

    this is the sort of thing wings used to be good at.

    re stus post

    there is a big business in potter tours in edinburgh, 1000’s visit to tour the potter sites, eg tom riddle gravestone, diagon ally, elephant house.

    i think a lot of these potter heads would be warmed by seeing the “i luv Jakey” poster on arrival

  88. Me Bungo Pony says:

    “WhoRattledYourCage says:

    30 July, 2020 at 6:01 pm

    Scot Finlayson says:

    30 July, 2020 at 5:57 pm
    Maybe Stu could pull down new poster Bungo,’

    Nah, free speech for all, including those you don’t agree with, or next thing you end up pulling down JK Rowling posters from train stations, as bad as the Zoomer Crew. Just scroll on by. ?”

    What have I said now? Is this a chat room for a support group or a site for debates? Either way, I’m going nowhere ?

  89. callmedave says:

    Posting the article as it wont archive. Apologies in advance


    Long Read: are SNP list-voters throwing themselves on the barbed wire of the electoral system?

    By Alasdair Galloway of the Scottish Writers Independence Group [SWIG]. SWIG has two members and the other one is SNP.
    Numerous critics have been critical of the establishment of alternative Yes parties seeking election via the Regional List system, including by Brenda Steele on “Talking Up Scotland”.

    I don’t have any problem with the view put forward by such as Peter Bell and Craig Murray that the SNP remains the “essential vehicle to take us to independence”, as the latter put it most recently, but at the same time there is a difficulty with the SNP vote and what happens to on the List, which cannot just be written off.

    My difficulty is that the working of the Holyrood voting system puts the SNP, at their current voting support, at something of a disadvantage. Specifically, when List seats are being allocated, the List vote is divided by 1+number of constituency seats already won by any party.

    As the SNP are very likely to win a majority (or almost all) the constituency seats(as they did in 2016 and given current polls, except perhaps in South Scotland), it makes it very difficult for them to win List seats.

    The Glasgow Region List seat allocation is one instance, as if the SNP repeat their 2016 performance and win all nine constituency seats, their List vote would be divided by 10, right from round 1. In that election SNP List votes elected precisely no one.

    Between them Glasgow, Central Scotland, North East Scotland, Mid Scotland & Fife, and West Scotland have 47 of Holyrood’s 73 constituency seats (64%) of which the SNP won all but 4, but not a single list seat. Even in Lothian, where they won “only” 6 of 9 constituencies, they won no List seats.

    In fact the only List seats won by the SNP were in Highlands & Islands where despite winning 6 of 8 constituencies they won a single List seat, and in South Scotland where, having taken 4 of the 9 constituencies, they won 3 more List seats.

    That data alone confirms there is a problem for the SNP with the List, having won so many constituencies. However, the system is behaving as planned, for when devised the intention was to stop Labour – who at the time would have won the great majority of constituencies – from dominating Holyrood ad infinitum. Thus, the list was a device intended to prevent a permanent Labour domination, though for Labour read SNP now.

    It might be argued that to create a new independence party to stand only list candidates to avoid the difficulties faced by the SNP is “gaming the system” (not hard to find Unionists arguing this) but the fact is that the origins of the system were to “game” the system to avoid a consequence unintended by its authors.

    If you remain unconvinced there is a problem, consider how many SNP list votes are in effect wasted. In Glasgow, Central Scotland, North East Scotland, Mid Scotland & Fife, West Scotland and Lothian the SNP List vote amounted to 752,230 votes which elected precisely no one at all.

    A frequent argument against alternative parties is that the votes they take away from the SNP cause them to lose List seats. If you vote SNP in your constituency you should do so on the List as well. There are two things wrong with that argument.

    One is that it is downright unreasonable to expect those who chose to vote for alternative parties – in which regard the Greens are a good example – to make a claim on the List vote because that is how they voted in their constituency. Some might disagree with their parties policies, but how many Green voters vote SNP in their constituency because there is no Green candidate, but Green on the List? More importantly, if that is their opinions why should they not?

    The second problem is that the SNP just haven’t had the votes to avoid this. Taking Glasgow as our example, by the time we get to the 7th (and final) List seat being allocated, this went to the Conservatives with an deHondt adjusted vote of 14,766.5 (their list vote was 29533, but having won one List seat already, this is divided by two – normal 1 + 1 seat).

    The irony of this is that the SNP list vote was 111,101 or more than three and a half times as much. But, as above, the SNP’s problem is that they won all nine constituencies so at the start of allocating the List seats their vote is divided by 10. There would have to be 10 List seats in the Glasgow Region for the SNP to win a List seat.

    What, though, if every SNP constituency voter voted for them in the List, following #BothVotesSNP? If this had happened, then the SNP List vote would have been 128,443, which divided by 10 is still short by 1922 of the number of votes with which the Conservatives won the final list seat.

    Now, to be clear, the criterion I am using is not a high bar – it is the LAST List seat. Think of all the Unionist politicians elected via the List. Labour’s 24 members include 21 on the List – including Richard Leonard. The Conservative total of 31 includes 24 List members, though in fairness Jackson Carlaw did get elected in Eastwood. Yet the combined Conservative and Labour List vote nationally (1,016,105) is less than the national SNP List vote (1,059,898), yet they won 45 seats via this route while the SNP won only 4 (four).

    The purpose of the voting system we have is laudable – to prevent one party with 40-50% of the vote dominating with less than a majority of votes (as Labour used to do), winning all (or almost all) the first past the post constituency seats. List seats were intended to put some balance in, by reflecting the proportions of votes cast.

    The problem, in my opinion is that the independence debate is structured around one major party proselytising independence, facing three unionist parties. In the constituencies this works to the advantage of the SNP (as the Unionist vote is split), but on the list we need more diversity on independence candidates, since, since as the SNP win almost all the constituency seats, they will have problems picking up List seats.

    What to do? There are many who argue that we should continue to give both votes to the SNP, but as Einstein is reputed to have said one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result.

    Perhaps the SNP could gain enough votes to make inroads on the List? Certainly the polls suggest that their vote may be up around 54%, which, if realised (and we are 10 months out) is 16% more than last time.

    Applying that increase to the actual SNP List vote would increase it to 128,877, adjusted to 12887.7 (divided by 10=9 constituency seats + 1), which is still short of the Conservative total for the last List seat. Adjusting their total constituency vote in the same way would give an adjusted List total of 14899, which would be enough to win the last List seat. But only just!

    Moreover, it makes the assumption that all SNP voters will vote SNP in their constituency AND on the List. Last time they lost 15% of their constituency votes to other parties – that’s 3 in every 20 constituency voters. This might be reduced, but is unlikely to be eradicated!

    So, if increasing the SNP vote is, at best, not without its difficulties, what else might we try? A variety of parties have come forward including the Greens (with some success), RISE (with no success) and some more recent initiatives including former SNP MSP Dave Thomson’s initiative, “Alliance for Yes”. Such as Peter Bell, James Kelly and most recently former MP George Kerevan have come out against this, and there is a potent argument for their view, since it is certainly true that if there are a plethora of alternative independence parties on the List – say SNP with up to three or four others – this kind of initiative could be catastrophic, as the independence vote gets behind not one party (the SNP who have little chance of winning List seats), but five.

    What this points to is the need for the independence vote to get behind a single alternative to the SNP, which will make a range of demands, organization and political modesty on the part of the parties involved who have to keep their eyes on the prize (independence). Not much to ask, since if we really do will the ends (independence) should we not will the means as well?

    If this is the case – let’s say via “Alliance for Yes”, with a range of candidates drawn from several parties, and perhaps none – and, say 25% (as a number to work this through) of the SNP List vote voting for them, then we could expect that to win one List seat in Glasgow. At, a no doubt kind of optimistic, 50% then two seats could be expected – one each from Labour and Conservative.

    A modest return? Yes. However, we are dealing only with seven seats, but to the degree this outcome is repeated nationally it provides yet another shift in the balance of influence at Holyrood in favour of independence. Moreover the closer to 100% this party gets, the better the outcome from the perspective of independence as the independence majority will be all the greater.

    There are, I would suggest, a number of conclusions to be drawn from this

    There IS a problem when vast numbers of SNP List votes are effectively throwing themselves on the barbed wire of the current electoral system. That, it seems to me, cannot be disputed.
    The question is what to do about it? Do we carry on as before and hope for better?

    Certainly if the SNP were to make even more significant gains than the polls currently suggest, the problem might well disappear, but I rather think an election would be the least of it for the Union itself as well as its supporters. However, should this increase in vote not be forthcoming, then the independence cause is likely to be condemned to an outcome in May next year of an outcome which does not fully reflect the domination of the independence cause, and in particular its support outwith the dominant political grouping, the SNP.

  90. MWS says:

    I posted on Twitter last night that I genuinely didn’t know ( and would like clarification on) whether this poster would be deemed to fall foul of Humza’s new Hate Crime Bill. Here we have a couple of life’s perpetually offended types complaining to say, well, they are ‘offended’ and this poster is deliberately hateful. Would this be enough for a tap on the shoulder from PC Plod? Who knows.
    Then I see some absolute doozie of a Professor from Edinburgh Uni tweeting that she found the sight of some stickers ‘harrowing’. HARROWING! Stickers! That’ll be another gang of folk potentially up in the court. The World is full of nut jobs who cry ‘ I’m offended’ at everything and anything. When do we stop pandering and just tell these individuals to grow up for goodness sake?

  91. twathater says:

    @ bob mack 6.52pm so you are quite happy NOT to challenge stupidity and contempt as long as it comes from a pseudo Scottish indy party . COMPLIANCE and apathy are what these arseholes are couting on
    And correct me if I’m wrong but you were espousing the PROTECTION of your female relatives in opposing these laws , and not being facetious are you now happy to compromise your protection in order to do NOTHING

    TO be clear I am not having a strop I am PROPOSING that WE FORCE these arseholes to LISTEN we barely have time to sort this shite out

  92. schrodingers cat says:

    callmedave says:
    Enter Douglas Ross,
    agreed, thing is tho’ he’s an mp, it is the msps being decimated at the mo, even liam kerr was complaining about bojo yesterday, carlaw gone, tompkins gone, ruth gone, …. annie wells isnt up to going toe to toe with nicola in holyrood. so who will be getting the weekly slap from nicola now?

    murdo? i thought he wanted to get rid of scot tories and set up a new party?

    any other light bulbs in the tory msp ranks? even a 30watt one?

  93. mike cassidy says:

    The Mystery of the Disappearing JK Rowling Poster

  94. callmedave says:

    Posted just before the Carlaw demise!

    Personally I think Boris pulled the long strings to holyrood and cut Carlaw loose.

    I said to my partner Karen while watching FMQ’s just as Carlaw unadvisedly ‘went off on one’

    “Jings! He’s sticking his neck out today”


    Office for Statistics Regulation accused of pedantry, conservatism and political bias

  95. schrodingers cat says:

    we barely have time to sort this shite out
    this is true, thing is, im not sure you and bob actually have that much of a difference in opinion

    eg, both support the idea of an indy election plebiscite?
    the only indy party standing in constituencies will be the snp

    2. bring forward the holyrood election? since it is unclear that this can be done it isnt a deal breaker.

    3. vote for a new indy list party. you both agree on this and it probably offers anti gra folks the best opportunity to have a voice in holyrood to oppose such legislation. that was why i was disappointed the ISP didnt join the alliance party. if the big guns continue to come out in favour of the alliance party, the isp will get completely left behind. half of something is half, half of nothing is fuck all. not too late though,

    4. other legal challenges, eg breeks suggestions, i dont think they will do much good but i doubt they will do any harm. so yeah, fill yer boots, not a deal breaker

  96. schrodingers cat says:

    Alex Cole-Hamilton MSP @agcolehamilton·1h
    I’ve always liked @Jackson_Carlaw & you can see the measure of the man he is in the introspection and humility he displayed in his departure. Coupled with the loss of @ProfTomkins it’s a dark time for progressive Tories of the centre. You’ll find safe harbour with @scotlibdems

    one point not often made about the tactical indy list vote, even with a moderate uptake of snp list voters. the list libs and greens msps are history.

    ps, i do wish cherry and robertson would sort themselves out edin central isnt the only seat worth challenging, i’d love to see alex cole hamilton get his jotters in edin south 🙂 and not get in on the list 🙂

  97. schrodingers cat says:


    Surely the time has come for Murdo to step up to the plate. #itsMurdotime

  98. schrodingers cat says:

    here, annie wells is still deputy leader.
    ergo, next thursday she will be asking Nicola questions

    popcorn at the ready folks 🙂

  99. Bob Mack says:


    Yes I fully understand what you say. The issue is what to do about it? That is without burning the house down then throwing the baby out with the bath water tfying to put it out.

    This legislation wil! not stand, indeed must not stand.

    SC is right. We have options. We must have time to play them before hitting the nuclear button and destroying everything.

    The SNP. seem to think they will pass this, but we the voters also have a say ,and if they love their seats as much as we think they do, their best and only alternative is to listen.

  100. GeeH says:

    @Andy Ellis – You ask if the party that has treated Neal Hanvey, Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry so badly is worth saving? I reckon any party that has Neal Hanvey, Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry still in it is definitely worth saving, if only for the fact that they are still there.

    I was at conference last year when Colette Walker was very narrowly defeated for the post of Women’s Officer at the last round of voting, it was close enough that a small push this year could easily win it for a gender critical candidate. Same for the other positions on the NEC. They only reason they managed to stuff the NEC full of woke weans is because our backs were turned and we weren’t paying attention. Well we ken noo and there’s plenty opportunity to change things if we make the effort.

    If you really cared about Joan McAlpine you’d be willing to fight to keep her at Holyrood, no?

  101. schrodingers cat says:

    Ross Thomson might be throwing his ring in the hat

  102. schrodingers cat says:

    James Matthews@jamesmatthewsky Conservative sources @SkyNews
    Jackson Carlaw was pushed after internal polling showed too few knew who he was & those who did didn’t rate him highly. Scottish party hierarchy decided to act – his only request was that it look like he stepped down.

    Douglas Ross has been lined up as replacement. Ruth Davidson among those ringing round MP’s/MSP’s telling them to give him a clear run. Suggestions in party that she will fill in as interim leader through next Holyrood election.

    Party deciding how they can best secure Douglas Ross seat in Holyrood. Suggestion – only that – of targeting list seat in Highlands & Islands.

  103. Mialuci says:

    Some people on here just come out with the biggest load of tripe, If we don’t get independence in the next few years i’m off, oh you poor poor souls, If you don’t have the heart for the fight then go and leave the rest of us to get on with what needs to be done.
    All you have to do is put a little x on a piece of paper, Its hard to fathom that wallace died trying to free his country and you people think your having a rough time, wallace was sectioned but it was more brutal than just being locked away for 30 days

  104. Bob Mack says:

    If anyone wants to send a rather large shot across the bows of the SNP that opportunity comes at the election.

    If we decide on which Indy party to support for the list and stick to that, then the SNP strategists will be very aware that they are no longer the only show in town.

    That will I guarantee you change things sugnificantly.

    Right now they are acting like the only show in town. Let us raise the curtain on another production.

  105. Achnababan says:

    Whit a nerve! Anyone who has spend any time in Gleneagles Station waiting room will have seen the absolute vitriol directed at the Jacobites. Passing itself of as local history, the illustrated story boards is just one long hate fest directed at the Jacobites and Scotland. In one passage the author actually describes the Jacobites as terrorists!

    Will these insulting and hate filled story boards be removed – me thinks not because it is all about who you hate!

  106. Republicofscotland says:

    I see nothing political in that poster, has the word love suddenly become a form of hate speech in Scotland which is rapidly becoming a Kafkaesque like country.

  107. Andy Ellis says:


    As I’ve said before, it’s no longer my party: what they do is up to them. Unless the members and activists take action and cleanse the party we may as well resign ourselves to indyref 2 in 2029 at the earliest. Of course that would suit quite a few in the party hierarchy. I’m pretty sceptical anything constructive will be done before 2021 elections tho’.

    If (as seems increasingly likely) we have a minimum of 8 years before the SNP could even hope to deliver a vote, still less actual indy, there’s ample time to start building a party that actually has some stomach for the fight.

  108. Mialuci says:

    The SNP are the only show in town, and only a fool would vote for any other party, everything is done as a means to an end, once we have our freedom we can choose to vote for any other scottish party, but in my humble opinion the SNP will still be in power in an independent scotland for at least another 20 years
    Who could forget what the unionist parties have done to derail our destiny, a lot of independent voters will have to die for those parties to ever have a chance to govern here, we have long memories and only time and death can erase it

  109. Breeks says:

    What in God’s name is this ‘paying £10k’ to stand in Holyrood elections?

    What’s an ‘ordinary’ person supposed to do if he’s not got a spare £10k down the back of the sofa?

    What does it mean? Is the SNP actually as skint as some people believe? Or is it just a one-of ‘let’s do everything we can to bar Joanna Cherry from Holyrood?”

    How great does it look when all you need to do to be an SNP candidate is bung the SNP £10k? Is that what’s meant by ‘gold standard’ democracy? Life is sweet if you’ve got enough gold? Maybe you have to wear Tweed plus-fours and have a shotgun license too?

    Something really, really stinks about ALL of this. What a bloody chaotic mess this whole situation has become, just when Scotland needs clear, decisive action and leadership, we get the SNP on a kamikaze mission to wreck everything that was achieved in 2015 and throw Scottish Independence on a bonfire.

  110. Beaker says:

    @Robert Louis says:
    30 July, 2020 at 6:08 pm
    “I know folk won’t like me saying this, but I really think the SNP need booted out of power, so they can regain some sanity and start to focus on independence again.”

    I agree with you. There’s more chance of Alex Salmond joining the Conservatives than the SNP achieving anything in the next 12 months.

    They have had the open goal of an ineffective opposition yet keep kicking the ball into their own net. The last 12 months have frankly been fucking awful, and even this week they end up on the defensive again, and with completely avoidable issues.

    God help them if the opposition grows some real teeth.

  111. velofello says:

    Douglas Ross as ScotTory leader?

    Remember Kinnock stumbling at the beach waters edge? Didn’t help him.

    Remember Ross tripping over himself on linesman duty?it won’t help him. Also he is lacking in the TV animated criteria. I know, it’s a superficial but Ruthie does pass that criteria.

    Doomed to fail whoever is marshalled to the post.

  112. seriously, Stu, it’s time to get back in the saddle.

  113. Graeme says:

    I’ve been a member of the SNP since 2014 although I’ve voted for them all my life, if I knew then what I know now I would never have joined, I have several times almost resigned my membership since Wisharts suggestion to become speaker of the house, that utterly disgusted me but there’s been many incidents since, Grousebeater, Hanvey, Denise Finley and of course Alex Salmond to name only a few and the list keeps getting longer.

    I’m not really a political animal but I desperately want independence for my country and I believed the SNP would win it for us one day, hopefully in my lifetime,

    But sadly now I have serious doubts, the SNP are fu*ked, they’re infested with, careerists, entryists, wokists (if that’s the right term for them) and other sundry wasters, they’re corrupt to the core,they have nothing but contempt for the folk who’ve put them in their charmed position (although there are some notable exceptions) but nonetheless I feel betrayed by them and I don’t think there’s any way to save them although I hope I’m wrong.

    I’ll continue to vote for them meantime only because I have no other choice but if and when another choice comes along I’ll gladly bin the SNP the same way they’ve binned us

  114. Bob Mack says:


    There is the SNP, the party I joined, and then there is THIS SNP.

    They are two different entities.

  115. Mialuci says:

    I have invested 5 decades voting for Independence and freedom, If anyone on this forum can explain to me how splitting the votes at this critical stage in our future can lead to Independence then lets hear it or forever hold your peace

  116. crazycat says:

    @ Breeks at 8.51

    I may have misunderstood what is being suggested, but I don’t think every candidate has to pay £10k.

    Its only the ones who are MPs, just in case they cause a by-election rather than doing both jobs until the next Westminster election (which, as we have seen recently, is a movable feast).

    According to Kirsty Blackman, it would be terrible to cause such a by-election because the retiring MP’s staff could be out of a job. Nice to see what her priorities are.

  117. Bob Mack says:


    It’s not splitting the vote at all. The Indy party are contesting only the list (or) regional seats and not the constituency seats.

    This could lead to an increase in party’s who support Indy at Holyrood. It’s actually a win win if we do it right.

  118. Ian R Murray says:

    As we critique the abilities of the potential Tory leaders and rub our hands at the entertainment they will provide at FMQs
    Are questions not prepared by backroom speechwriters and the like?
    So the same questions quality as usual no ?

  119. Andy Ellis says:


    I see someone else has already corrected your ridiculous (and widely discredited) “it’ll split the vote! nonsense……so good for them. For someone with such a long pedigree in the movement you seem startlingly ill-informed.

    What you have to explain to us is how the gradualist “only a Gold Standard referendum will do” SNP are going to deliver such a vote, still less actual independence.

    {And please, spare us the Wishart-esque magical thinking that the britnats will just give in if we give them one more mandate! We’ll just point at you and laugh.)

  120. Clapper57 says:

    So Michelle Ballantyne just interviewed and she said carlaw Pushed and no sooner had he resigned then Douglas Ross’s name thrown in the mix…she said push came from WM…said she did not want a stitch up re leader…obvs she is peeved as she lost out to Carlaw in leadership election….though I am sure she will eventually get back onside if a shadow cabinet position is offered….or has she, by speaking out like this, burnt her career bridges….F**k knows I cannae keep up ….Lol

    Call me cynical but do you remember Ross ‘resigning’ from Scottish office role because of Dominic Cummings breaking lockdown rules….to believe this you would need to believe Ross was a man of principles…and as a man of ‘principle’ he voted NOT to protect Food Standards or protect the NHS from foreign control….so it is easy to suspect that this charade just now is a tactical plan coming into fruition….though the flaw of the plan is them thinking that somehow Douglas Ross is the answer……….

  121. callmedave says:


    Not a bad call that.

  122. CameronB Brodie says:

    Given the Justice Secretary is monitoring btl comments on WOS, here’s a bit more epistemology. Hopefully the Scottish government will be sufficiently responsive to acknowledge the total pig’s ear they are making out of Scottish democracy. Though I’ll not hold my breath, as our government appears to have allowed anti-democratic ideology and practice to capture policy and strategy.

    Psicologia & Sociedade, vol.25 no.spe Belo Horizonte 2013
    Gender and feminisms: theoretical-epistemological considerations and methodological impacts

    The present article analyzes how the relationship between theory and politics takes place in the Brazilian feminist field and how this articulation gains strength in academia, setting up a critical position that is characteristic as a theoretical and methodological perspective.

    Among its fundamental axes, there are the theoretical-epistemological and methodological concerns, as it is understood that it is not possible to perform feminist science, except from an engaged, politically committed position.

    Thus, the concept of gender and its impacts on the theoretical and political fields problematizes and analyzes the methodological implications in this context of scientific research. Such analyses enable the deduction that the feminist debate is not separate from that of the scientific field in general, concerning the statute of science and the ways of generating knowledge, as also presented in the field of Social Psychology.

    gender; feminist theories; epistemology; methodology.

  123. Fionan says:

    Bob Mack @8.35 pm
    I agree, the list party will act as the boot the snp need, IF we all decide on one list party (not greens) to support, and stick to that.When one party refuses to ally with another party, that should serve as a warning that the main goal of the party is not to further Independence but to further individual careers. I was very close to looking at the ISP website with a view to joining, but I am put off by their refusal to join an alliance.

    The alliance I am not sure about, I will wait till more info about them is available.But I think whatever list party we decide to support absolutely must have at least one well-known, well-likes and proven figure within its team if we are to feel trust again. For many of us have had our trust severely battered by the snp shenanigans over the past two years.

    Sadly, I suspect AS has taken just too much of a battering to want to return to frontline politics and that is his right. He and his family have been put through sheer hell and I doubt if he will want more of that, other than hopefully revealing the hidden facts of the set-up against him which the judge in his trial did not admit for the defence.

  124. callmedave says:

    Lockdown tightened in parts of northern England

    Hmmm! On a knife edge. Maybe Boris too.

  125. McDuff says:

    So lets say JK decides to leave Scotland because of the hate she is receiving via Sturgeon`s obsession with woke and the almost sinister hate crimes bill. This would receive negative world wide publicity and could seriously impact on independence.
    Along with the AS debacle and the impending enquiry you just get the feeling that all these things are somehow deliberate.
    Something is going on, its a plan an agenda,its making me feel uncomfortable and its not very nice.

  126. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “If anyone on this forum can explain to me how splitting the votes at this critical stage in our future can lead to Independence then lets hear it”

    OK @Mialuci says at 9:10 pm here goes.

    2016 SNP got 46.5% of Constituency vote returning 59 MSPs and 41.7% of the Regional vote returning ONLY 4 MSPs

    In the 2016 Holyrood Election the combined Conservative and Labour vote nationally (Constituency and Region) was less than the national SNP vote, yet they (the Conservatives and Labour) won 45 seats via the List while the SNP won only 4 (four).

    The answer (for me) is simple:

    (1) Vote SNP on the Constituency (they should get 55 – 60 seats in 2021 based on current Polling)

    (2) Vote a Second Pro-Indy Party on the Regional list (not Green though)

    This will return an Indy Majority of MSPs (SNP would have the most but a Pro-Indy List party that took 2 or 3 seats in each of the Regions could easily return 16 – 24 seats (of 56 total)

    It will remove Unionist Seat Warmers (and some Wokey Greens)

    But perhaps more importantly elect a tranche of MSPs who will prioritise Independence and serve to give the cock sure “who else are you gonna vote for” SNP careerists the bloody good shake they appear to sorely need.

    Only issue is if there are loads of Indy List parties which dilute the vote share.

    So they either do the same as Lab, Lib and Plaid did in Wales during GE 2019 and agree which regions to stand aside in for each other.


    A Big Beast like AS comes in with his own (or as a candidate for one of the Indy List Parties and the others stand down/amalgamate/go the way of RISE).

    It doesn’t actually take a large % of previous SNP Regional Votes to return an Indy List Party MSP at the expense of a Wokey Green/FibDem/Slabber or Tory (high tens to mid twenty thousand votes in some places) Ross Greer got in on 17,218 votes and John Finnie got in on 14,781 votes.

  127. robbo says:

    callmedave says:
    30 July, 2020 at 9:59 pm
    Lockdown tightened in parts of northern England

    Hmmm! On a knife edge. Maybe Boris too.


    Don’t tell bipod and pete, the resident tories. They won’t be able to blame NS or Scot Govt

  128. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “Party deciding how they can best secure Douglas Ross seat in Holyrood. Suggestion – only that – of targeting list seat in Highlands & Islands.”

    That would make BoJos recent visit to Orkney and Goves recent schmoozing of the hospitality sector at a summit he hosted in Alness where he he bigged up how much support had been made available by the Westminster Government to local businesses during Covid Pandemic @schrodingers cat says at 8:24 pm

  129. Iain More says:

    So why has Carlaw resigned? What has he done that has forced him to resign as leader of the Goosestepping Quisling Party in Scotland?

  130. Stewart says:

    Stu Campbell is fibbing. The poster was put up by Scotland in Union for the sterling work JKR did in smashing the Yes campaign! Utterly outrageous that the SNP had it removed!

  131. call me dave says:

    Mini panic on radio 5 ‘lockdown’ virus call in.

    Hancock making it up as he goes along…too many rules…says a caller. Some zoomers and some sensible folk. 🙁

    OH! BBC expert Prof Hunter he who, a couple of weeks ago, tut tutted on masks is now ‘surprised’ at the situation.

    OH! Leader of Burnley council says Government statement about 21:50hrs but no advice yet. But kicks in at Midnight.

    Off to bed & I’ll listen in a wee while.

  132. CameronB Brodie says:

    I pretty sure you are not correct, but do you have any evidence supporting you opinion?

  133. jfngw says:

    The plans to replace Jackson Carlaw have obviously been in progress for some time with red card Ross as the favourite and family woman Davidson being sighted as the interim leader for FMQ’s.

    Is this the result of her being feted for the house of Lords by her great leader Johnson, I believe Davidson has labelled it ‘Operation Arse Wipe’ with the admission that if you ant to get on you need to get your hands dirty.

  134. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi callmedave at 7:36 pm

    You typed,
    “Posting the article as it wont archive. Apologies in advance


    That article echoed many of my own thoughts over the past few months.
    A month or so ago, I looked at what would have happened at the 2016 election, if a SINGLE Pro-Indy party had stood for election in the regions.

    So far, I have analysed NE Scotland (my region), Mid Scotland and Fife and Central Scotland. The wurkie-out looked at what would have happened if 25% or 40% of the SNP regional vote had transferred to the Pro-Indy party in those regions.

    Here’s the summary…
    North East Scotland.
    Quick summary…
    2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
    Tories 4 MSPs
    Labour 2 MSPs
    Lib-Dem 1 MSP

    2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
    Tories – 3
    Labour – 2
    Pro-Indy – 1
    Lib-Dem – 1

    2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
    Tories – 3
    Pro-Indy – 2
    Labour – 1
    Lib-Dem – 1

    Mid Scotland and Fife.
    Quick summary…
    2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
    Tories 4 MSPs
    Labour 2 MSPs
    Green 1 MSP

    2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
    Tories – 4
    Labour – 2
    Pro-Indy – 1
    Lost 1 Green

    2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
    Tories – 3
    Pro-Indy – 2
    Labour – 2
    And we’ve lost 1 Tory and 1 Green.

    Central Scotland.
    Quick summary…
    2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
    Labour 4 MSPs
    Tories 3 MSPs

    2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
    Labour – 4
    Tories – 2
    Pro-Indy – 1
    And we’ve lost one Tory.

    2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
    Labour – 3
    Tories – 2
    Pro-Indy – 2
    And we’ve lost one Tory and 1 Labour.

    An interesting point is that in NE Scotland, the SNP lost Aberdeenshire West to the Tories, resulting in 9 out of 10 constituency seats.

    To me, it would be logical for A. Robertson to stand for that constituency, rather than Edinburgh, as it’s closer to where he was an MP.

    However, that constituency is very close to where A. Salmond lives and had his Westminster seat. What would be the chances of AS throwing his hat in with ISP + Alliance but actually standing for the constituency of Aberdeenshire West, whilst being #1 on the ISP/Alliance list for NE Scotland, just in case?

    If you want to peruse my wurkie-outs, you can find NE Scotland at the link below, with MS & F and CS following.

    I also worked out for CS, what would have happened if various percentages of SNP votes had transferred to Pro-Indy.

    Pro-Indy – 4
    Labour – 2
    Tories – 1

    Pro-Indy – 4
    Labour – 2
    Tories – 1

    Pro-Indy – 4
    Labour – 2
    Tories – 1

    Pro-Indy – 3
    Labour – 3
    Tories – 1

    You can also see the wurkie-out for these figures if you go to the link below and continue reading. I think the idea of a SINGLE Pro-Indy party, standing in the regions only, could win 24 seats, is rather fanciful. I’d guess somewhere between 12 and 20…

  135. call me dave says:

    Updated archived story on lockdown.

  136. McDuff says:

    The SNP in its present state is not going to deliver independence. Its policies and stunning indifference to that goal are now quite apparent.
    After forty years of supporting the SNP I have cancelled my membership and I must say they didn’t seem too bothered.
    The disappointment and anger I feel towards the SNP at this moment is indescribable.

  137. Beaker says:

    I normally keep away from newspapers both printed and online. But I was having a bit of a search about George Galloway, since he’s decided to return (hopefully minus the catsuit) I think he could be entertaining.

    What the fuck is The National doing using the term “Yoons”? I thought they were supposed to be a serious alternative to the msm. That term is fine for Twitter, but like the phrase “cybernat”, should not be used if you want a serious debate.

    As for Sturgeon on Twitter, she (or more likely an assistant) has tweeted regarding potential replacements for Carlaw. Someone should remind her she’s the First Minister, not a fucking troll. Contrast that with Swinney’s measured response.

    Minor points to be sure, and I know I’m nitpicking. However if you can’t be disciplined in the use of language, at some point you will make a major fuck up. You do not ever give your opponents an opportunity.

  138. schrodingers cat says:


    one think i have noticed from looking at the figures.

    there is a sliding scale of returns, eg, with 75% of snp list voters changing to a new indylist party, that will win us 3 of the 7 list seats available in each region. increase that 75% towards 100% (extrememly unlikely) will not win us that 4th list seat.

    if stus poll is correct, and i think it is, 50% of yessers are willing to vote for a new indy list party, pushing that up to 75% is possible.

    all to play for

  139. Dan says:

    “Hate Speech Bill”… Projection much?
    It’s just what you’d expect to be rolled out by a bunch of roasters unable to adequately defend their own views, and so consumed by their intolerance of any person that happens to express a valid and justified opinion not aligned with their own…

    Embracing the concept of dualism in a Yin Yang stylée, I am minded to counter the ill conceived debate suppressing abomination that is the HCB, and the negative connotations it attributes Scotland of having by requiring such a policy to be implemented over and above existing legislation…
    I hereby propose the “Love Speech Bill”, which aims to liberate, actively promote, and celebrate the expression of “wonderfully” diverse views held by the multitude of dour Scots across the length and breadth of oor nation.

    It’s not all about rainbows, #MagnoliaLivesMatterToo

  140. schrodingers cat says:

    call me dave says:
    Mini panic on radio 5 ‘lockdown’ virus call in.

    major panic on newsnight now. even tory mps are revolting over clusterbourach happening in real time.

  141. schrodingers cat says:

    To me, it would be logical for A. Robertson to stand for that constituency, rather than Edinburgh, as it’s closer to where he was an MP.
    totally, btw, if a tory mp steps down from wm to become scot tory leader in holyrood, should the wm seat be subject to a by election?

    joanna cherry has a 12k majority??? we can afford to risk a by election. indeed, if focus is now going to swing from wm to holyrood, why not bring back our big hitters? and hold some by elections?

    it might strong arm any tory mp intending to stand in holyrood to put up their abandoned wm constituencies to a by election

    the polls at the moment are in our favour.

    id rather that snp edin central branch was not subject to such a divisive choice. why dont they just flip a coin?
    both are big hitters and many branches would like either of them as candidates ?

  142. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s another to hopefully better inform the Justice Secretary of how to shape “just” law.

    Whose womanhood? Feminist postcolonial approaches to law

  143. Ian Brotherhood says:

    This is just brilliant editorial.

    (Seriously – when was the last time a ‘Scottish’ newspaper produced anything as assured and concise?)

  144. Walter Jones says:

    I think the Tories want the gay Tank Commander back in charge at Holyrood to halt the erosion of their vote.

    I doubt if Ruthie is the man for the job

  145. CameronB Brodie says:

    Walter Jones
    Could you be any less sensitive towards lesbians?

  146. Terry callachan says:

    The list presented by WOS of those against the new laws is not a list that I look at and say oh yeah all well balanced and reasonable people !
    There are some on this list who want to be able to continue their hate behaviour

    Furthermore WOS often makes light of the use of bad language , swearing , as if we should all be doing it as if it’s normal , it’s not normal , just because WOS thinks it’s ok to use bad language and swear doesn’t mean it is ok.
    And yes I am offended by bad language and swearing and no I don’t think you have the right to do it around me or wherever you happen to be.
    Grow up .
    Children learn a lot by copying
    Take responsibility control your outbursts
    Some places you will get away with it but not everywhere , show respect .

  147. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis 9:30pm
    “I see someone else has already corrected your ridiculous (and widely discredited) “it’ll split the vote! nonsense……so good for them. For someone with such a long pedigree in the movement you seem startlingly ill-informed.

    What you have to explain to us is how the gradualist “only a Gold Standard referendum will do” SNP are going to deliver such a vote, still less actual independence.

    {And please, spare us the Wishart-esque magical thinking that the britnats will just give in if we give them one more mandate! We’ll just point at you and laugh.)”

    This is the problem with these threads. No tolerance of those who won’t bow down to the magnificence of the infallible plan.

  148. schrodingers cat says:

    Nicola Sturgeon, Jacinda Adern and Angela Merkel in top 5 of world’s most eloquent leaders

    The list saw Ardern top the list for her “empathetic leadership style”, just ahead of German chancellor Angela Merkel, Indian prime minister Narendra Modi in third place and Canada’s Justin Trudeau, who was ranked fourth.

    Scotland’s first minister came fifth and was described as being “clear, calm and compassionate” by the experts who drew up the list.

  149. CameronB Brodie says:

    Me Bungo Pony
    You might have a point if the Scottish government didn’t believe itself to still be legally bound by Westminster. Brexit should have been countered back in 2016, but we’ve apparently got to reach some notional gold standard of voter support before we can defend our constitutional identity, rather than constitutional and international law. This places politics above the law and is a direct route to a totalitarian state.

  150. Me Bungo Pony says:

    [b]test[/b] [i]test[/i]

  151. CameronB Brodie says:

    sorry….rather than call upon constitutional….

    Self determination (international law)

  152. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Terry callachan (11.33) –

    You, sir, are in the wrong fucking place.


  153. Terry callachan says:

    If you think that other getting offended by the things you do and say is irrelevant you are deceiving yourself .
    Take WOS , for example , so many times enraged by the views of others by the comments they make , oh yes and action taken , banned from this website.
    WOS takes offence like everyone else don’t believe otherwise

    Laws criminalising hateful comments / actions is required otherwise people think they can say whatever they want to whoever they want whenever they want
    Know what ? …YOU CANT…or if you do there’s a price to pay , could be you simply lose a friend or offend someone but it can also lead to violence and vendettas that go and on and on.

    In my opinion WOS has lost its way with its views on gender recognition and hate crime it’s clear to me that this is a place of harsh uncaring opinion , what these legislations are trying to do is improve the lives of minorities , take away their pain improve their lives , let the experts deal with it and advise the Scottish government accordingly.

    The AS case showed weaknesses in Scotland’s legal processes but ultimately it also showed its great strength in reaching a correct decision under pressure from British media.

    I think Scottish government will do the same

  154. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @CBB 11:39pm
    Brexit should have been countered back in 2016, but we’ve apparently got to reach some notional gold standard of voter support before we can defend our constitutional identity

    There’s not much point in claiming “our” independence if most of “us” don’t want it.

  155. Walter Jones says:


    Fuckin hell man,,,the language on this fuckin forum can be fuckin terrible some fuckin times.

    Cannae wait for that fuckin hate crime bill to come into fuckin law, coz this fuckin swearing is doin ma fuckin nut in.

    A fuckin hate swearin Terry.

  156. Terry callachan says:

    Ian brotherhood….who says ? …you ?

  157. Bob Mack says:

    @Me Bungo Pony.

    Your asked to bow down to nothing. You have your own ideas.

    This idea is about maximising the Indy representation at Holyrood. Does that go against what you would wish to see?

  158. CameronB Brodie says:

    Me Bungo Pony
    So you are placing political taste over the rule-of-law. If the SNP were to actually support democracy, I’m pretty certain Scotland would support them.

  159. Bob Mack says:

    @Terry callachan.

    Did you fall off the Mars rover taking you home?

    I’ve lived in Scotland all my life and swearing is a regular thing. We are a passionate people and we speak with passion.

    Psychologically it’s quite’s just emphasis on our emotions.

  160. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Having read umpteen comments on WOS, and Facebook, and Twitter over the past couple of years, it’s obvious that there is a percentage of Scots who do not understand the intricacies of the Holyrood election – and are not interested in learning how it works against a party who win a large majority of constituency seats.

    When peeps’ eyes glaze over after 10 seconds of reading a comment, what hope do we have to persuade peeps that TACTICS are what is going to get us independence?

    The strategy seems to have been left by the wayside. Tactics are all we have left: Constituency – SNP. Regional – Pro-Indy.

  161. Bob Mack says:


    It’s remarkable that people automatically assume it’s about minimising the SNP. They are so doggedly devoted to one concept that they fail to see its actually maximising the Indy representation.

    Again,Orwell foresaw exactly this phenomena in his writings.


  162. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Bob Mack 11:50pm
    Your asked to bow down to nothing. You have your own ideas. This idea is about maximising the Indy representation at Holyrood. Does that go against what you would wish to see?

    As I’ve already said to Andy Ellis, I’m fine with waiting to see what the opinion polls say in the next few months. If the polls show a good support for A Pop-up Indy party then we should go for it. But if it looks like NO Pop-up party is polling well, and may be threatening an indy majority, then the plan should be aborted.

    Apparently this modification of the plan amounted to heresy and the toys were well and truly thrown out of the pram. The plan cannot be questioned. It’s infallibility must be accepted. No dissent will be tolerated. These are the mantras of the threads.

  163. Terry callachan says:

    Walter Jones….glad you said that ?
    You miss the point , swearing is only minor , as I said there are some places you get away with it
    Here you do
    Don’t know what age you are but you will find out as life progresses that some places you don’t get away with it

    The hate crime bill is not trying to stop people swearing it’s about the way you communicate
    is it hateful , threatening ?
    Most people who are hateful and threatening use bad language and swear it’s as if they think they’re tougher or look and sound tougher by swearing and I suppose there are some people who feel that is the case they maybe feel more threatened by a swearing bad language aggressor
    But as you mature in life you often find that the swearing and shouting is a veil and isn’t a sign of strength at all

    I don’t swear or use bad language myself unless throwing it back at someone using it with me

    But the idea that this law is just about that is wrong

    It’s about hateful action aggression language which is threatening to most people
    Not all
    But most

    We don’t need or want hateful comment aggressive behaviour to continue being seen as acceptable in Scotland
    Having a law that deals with this is good

    If all you do is swear it won’t affect you Walter
    It’s the aggression they’re after
    Aggression verbally can hurt as much as a punch
    The pain from a punch goes away it’s short lived
    But verbal abuse can live with people and be remembered much longer and continues the threat

  164. SilverDarling says:


    Hi there! I hope you and yours are keeping well.

    I think you might be right about the machinations going on to anoint wee Douglas. He likes to give his unusual view of Scotland and what it needs and wants in the HoC and the braying Tory bully boys lap it up.

    I have been aware of him more recently and a cynic might think he is the new chosen one. Heroically giving up his (albeit worthless) junior cabinet post to selflessly respond to the concerns of his constituency – what a guy, eh? Of course Dom might be the one doing the choosing to send him back up the road.

    He is a wee nastie though, just the right sort to stick the boot in as Her Highness, Lady Colonel Ruth wants. The dog whistles will be getting polished and ready for use again.

  165. Terry callachan says:

    Bob Mack you miss the point
    The hate crime bill is not about stopping people swearing
    But aggression is usually accompanied by swearing
    The hate crime bill understands that aggressive comments are threatening and frighten people for longer than a punch
    Both are crimes
    It has to be dealt with
    As the saying goes it’s not what you said it’s the way you said it

  166. Doug Buchannan says:

    Scottish Government and independence soaring in the polls, opposition parties in utter chaos!

    And what do we have from a once useful tool in the independence armoury? It”s drawing attention to a non story in the hope some deluded crazies will chip in to send an ego to Holyrood. You wait, the bowl will be shaken shortly, better cough up!

    You could not make this stuff up!

  167. CameronB Brodie says:

    Terry callachan
    The HCB, as drafted, is intended to stifle democracy.

  168. CameronB Brodie says:

    Doug Buchannan
    Scots law is being transformed in a manner that will prevent justice in Scotland. Are you sure you know how to support democracy?

  169. Bob Mack says:

    @Me Bungo Pony,

    There is still a lot of time to an election to decide the preference for a list party.

    What I do know is this. Right now the SNP have what you would call a captive audience in the absence of a viable alternative. That however ,will not last indefinitely. Of that you can be sure, especially when you see and hear the mutterings of dicontent being expressed on many forums including this one. All loyalty has a sell by date, especially when it goes unacknowledged.

    That is the greatest danger and it is caused by the party itself. It’s not listening ..

  170. Effijy says:

    Network Rail are owned by the Government.
    The Tory Government as it happens and is their
    Practice the top man has the title Sir.

    Only posters for Brexit, UKIP, English Alliance
    are non political

  171. Bob Mack says:

    @Doug Buchanan.

    “You could not make this stuff up””

    You just did.

  172. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Terry callachan.

    How many times have we found ourselves, when presented with gross stupidity or illogicality, saying to ourselves, or out loud,

    For Phux sake!

  173. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Bob Mack 12:19am

    On the Woke issues, I agree the SNP need to listen more. But on independence, people need to be patient. The SNP intend to WIN the next referendum. Not go gung-ho, fingers crossed at a point when YES is behind in the polls and the electorate are focused on something else. The polls are moving in favour of independence. An SNP majority at Holyrood in 2021, in my opinion, will almost guarantee independence by 2022.

  174. Bob Mack says:

    @Terry Cal!ahan,

    If I jokingly referred to you as a contrary old barsteward, I have committed a crime. Ageism for one. Hate speech for two.
    Depending on how you reacted to it if course.

    Are those actually punishable by law, or indeed should they be?

  175. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Bob Mack 12:31am

    Ageism is already an offence under the Equality Act. The foul language would probably just be used to corroborate the ageism.

  176. Bob Mack says:

    @Me Bungo Pony,

    I do appreciate your thinking on that . I just however point out that there is an elephant in the room. Perhaps two.

    One rather large one is the question of whether there will still be a Holyrood by then following Brexit trade deal conclusions.

    Secondly and purely on your prediction about the popularity of the SNP, then their vote will be safe enough. What issue is there or can there be about supplementing the Indy movement by replacing Tory and Lib Dem candidates on the list vote with Indy MSPs,
    Currently voting SNP on the regional list only returns around one seat.

    See Schrodingers Cat above.

  177. CameronB Brodie says:

    Democracy, human rights, and the rule-of-law, are all interconnected and mutually supportive. If you mess with one, they all stop functioning. Brexit destroyed British democracy, which already lacked adequate moral and legal substance to be considered “just”. Scots already suffers from a lack of effective access to human rights, so it would be extremely helpful if the Scottish government were not to meekly capitulate to authoritarian English Torydum.

    Politics can’t deliver justice, only a respect for the rule-of-law can, which appears to be beyond the capabilities of the Scottish government. Scotland deserves better.

  178. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Bob Mack 12:39am

    On the existence of Holyrood …. I don’t think there is any real risk of it being abolished before the 2021 elections. I wouldn’t put it past the Tories but the repercussions would be unpredictable and likely catastrophic for the Union. Either way, there is nothing the Scottish govt can currently do to stop the Tories if that is what they are minded to do. Having said that, if the Tories dither over it, that might be the time for a “wildcat” referendum as the people are likely to be motivated against the move.

    As to the second point, there is no issue with it …. if that is what happens. However,if the SNP constituency vote falls back and a plethora of List Indy parties each take 1-2% of their List vote …. the hope of a majority could be lost with no List MSPs from either the SNP or the Pop-ups. In that scenario, independence could be lost for decades or even forever. That’s why I think we need to keep an eye on the polls and tone down the anti-SNP narrative.

    All just my opinion of course 🙂

  179. twathater says:

    @ Bob Mack & SC okay so we are agreed that a plebicite election would be ideal and a early plebicite election would be even better , but as everyone on here knows NS and the hierarchy have dismissed this as an option

    So what happens when we enthusiastically promote SNP for the constitutional vote and they win it overwhelmingly , and then they have another 5 years to implement their reviled policies whilst ignoring all complaints , and continue on their pedestrian way of promising referendums that never happen , SO WHAT HAPPENS THEN

    My proposal is designed to THREATEN their torpor and MAKE them recognise that they are ANSWERABLE TO US , if they do NOT ditch these hated policies and commit to a FIRM date then they may well face unemployment

    WE are the ones who elect THEM and they are showing absolute contempt for our wishes

    It is okay to say that a new indy list party will hold them to account but if they win massively as is expected then that opposition becomes moot

  180. Effijy says:

    Secondhand Carlaw has failed his MOT.

    No Steering and the Rear End has completely gone.

    Replacement parts would be a complete waste of time.

    Air freshener required as the whole vehicle stinks.

  181. Andy Ellis says:


    Opinions are like arseholes bud, everyone has one.

    What matters here is evidence. As you’ve demonstrated over and over again, all you can offer is pious assertion that somehow in 2022 the SNP will magically deliver another vote, if only we are patient and deliver another mandate for them in 2021. Neither you, nor any of the others who believe in unicorns, can ever tell us how that’s going to happen. Strange that, eh?

    As for your whiny “wah, why can’t folk like Andy be more tolerant of our faith based, evidence free assurance all probably be well” post earlier, it’s probably because I’m beyond tired of hard of thinking SNP ultras regurgitating the same discredited nonsense ad infinitum. Happy to help!

  182. ahundredthidiot says:

    Just for the sake of clarity then, once the Death to Free Speech Law has been passed – and let’s face it, there is hardly any courage at Holyrood to stop it, mostly weak, virtue signalling compliant careerists.

    If I choose to wear a T-shirt with this exact logo (I sweetheart JK Rowling) and decide to catch a train from this (or any other) train station – will I be asked to remove myself from the premises? can I expect to engage british transport police if I question/resist? and if, finally, I do not comply and take a stand on my freedom of speech, can/will I be arrested and charged/potentially face jail time/career ruined.

  183. Breeks says:

    twathater says:
    31 July, 2020 at 3:39 am
    @ Bob Mack & SC okay so we are agreed that a plebicite election would be ideal and a early plebicite election would be even better , but as everyone on here knows NS and the hierarchy have dismissed this as an option…

    If the SNP hadn’t been so mealy mouthed about Independence in their recent manifestos, every SNP majority at Holyrood and / or Westminster could already have been a plebiscite election. Even Thatcher understood that was the SNP’s default setting… once upon a time. Only the SNP can explain when and why they altered their position.

    What is doubly frustrating is that Scotland is generous beyond measure to present a democratic mandate a prerequisite for ending the Union, because neither the 1707 Treaty of Union, nor current International Law actually requires it.

    Yes, it’s true, popular support and a democratic mandate might greatly assist the quest to secure International recognition, but to insist that such a mandate is necessary before a nation can mobilise the defence of it’s legal Constitution is putting the cart before the horse.

    In Scotland’s case, it is a dangerous strategy, which has denied Scotland leave to flex it’s constitutional muscle and wield the popular sovereignty of the Scottish people as a defence mechanism to prevent the very acts of colonial subjugation we have just witnessed through Brexit. Instead of respecting Scotland’s Constitution and the popular sovereignty of the people, the “Scottish Government” has declared itself hostage the Scotland Act… the mini constitution (small ‘c’) of a devolved assembly; NOT the Constitution of Scotland, as declared and ratified by the Declaration of Arbroath and 700 years of constitutional provenance.

    I fear Scotland must stop listening to the misguided politicians who are proving themselves to be constitutionally inept or illiterate, and start listing to people like Craig Murray, who have a wealth of knowledge about International Law, bilateral Treaties, and the generally accepted protocols whereby one nation recognises the legitimacy of another.

    Democracy is one ingredient in the cake, but a cake can still be baked without democracy, and still be perfectly palatable to all concerned as bread.

    As it happens, bread is a healthier staple than cake.

  184. willie says:

    Presumably if a child wore a tee shirt or a bade saying I love JK Rowling, or I love Hogworts and Harry Potter they would be guilty of a hate crime.

    This is FASCISM, and we must fight it.

    Like the Police Scotland Alex Salmond Team, and the COPS, someone or something is directing this behaviour. Network Rail would not remove a totally innocent I Love advert on the birthday of a world famous story writer unless there was some controlling political mind directing that they do so.

  185. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis 7:22am
    As for your whiny “wah, why can’t folk like Andy be more tolerant of our faith based, evidence free assurance all probably be well” post earlier, it’s probably because I’m beyond tired of hard of thinking SNP ultras regurgitating the same discredited nonsense ad infinitum.

    You sound like some religious zealot decrying all other “faiths” as heresy while declaring your own evidence free faith as the one true path.

    I have yet to hear a coherent plan from you. You have said nothing that is in any way deliverable without the SNP taking actions you claim they won’t take. Perhaps that’s why you are so bitter; you have no faith in your own faith.

  186. Walter Jones says:

    Can I ask, when did this love-in with this english person and anti Independence campaigner JK Rowling, begin?

    If that poster was was up in 2014, I bet you it wouldn’t have stayed up for long.

  187. Sensibledave says:

    Walter Jones

    Because, somewhat refreshingly, it demonstrates that some people think some things are just as important as Independence. Those that are described here as “yoons” constitute around 50% of the population of Scotland and the SC should be working on behalf of all Scottish folk.

  188. Walter Jones says:

    Bungo (mad Stureonista)

    You know, as we all do, the SNP is not the problem, it’s the fuckin leadership.

    You know this, but you continue with the line that if we don’t vote for the snp, then who will we vote for?

    We want a change of leadership and change of direction on policy.

    As I say, you know this, but you continue with the line ” if not Nicola, then who?”.

    Stop acting so fuckin simple Bungo.

    Sturgeon and her inner circle are the problem,,, NOT the SNP.

  189. @Me Bungo Pony,

    my point being was,

    how would you feel if you ,a new `poster,` were arbitrarily removed from Wings,

    as the JK `poster` was arbitrarily removed by some misogynist at Net `woke` Rail,

    it was a hypothetical scenario to facilitate you to understand why the removal of the JK `poster` was wrong.


  190. Walter Jones says:

    Bungo,,,Mad mental Sturgeonista.

    Sturgeon has started her own little Cult within the SNP and a few of her devout followers have found their way onto Wings.

    They are here to hold the Sturgeon line and try to convert a few hard of thinking numbnuts on here.

    Without much success may I add.

    We see through their bullshit.

  191. Breeks says:

    Any word on the SNP’s NEC vote about banning Joanna Cherry?

    Vote was last night wasn’t it?

    I kinda hope they did ban her, and Joanna Cherry QC takes the news really, really, badly, decides to run as an Independent, and crowd funds a constitutional challenge to Scotland’s unlawful subjugation which delivers Scotland from the grasping clutches of both Westminster and Holyrood before Christmas.

    I was disappointed Joanna said defeating Brexit was last years story. Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation will haunt this nation for decades if we don’t stand our ground and defend Scotland’s Constitution.

  192. Ottomanboi says:

    A projected symbol of the new order SNP?
    or for the more sentimental
    Playing with the Goblet of Fire does have consequences.

  193. Almond Chutney says:

    I’m curious to know, if Scotland becomes independent , does Hogwarts leave the jurisdiction of the British Ministry of Magic?

    SNP drapes in the great hall and yes stickers posted in every nook and cranny.

    I entertain myself..

  194. Bob Mack says:


    Joanna was right about Brexit. It is finished. She has recently also mentioned that this is now about Independence and how Scotland achieves that goal.

    Joanna is a pragmatist with a sharp legal mind. Whilst many argue over what it’s and what might be of what could have been, she deals with the realities as they are.

    I admire her greatly.

  195. Bob Mack says:

    Please understand there are many great people in the SNP. Nobody is decrying the party at all. What most are complaining about is the direction in which the leadership is taking us, or are allowing other self interested individuals to take us.

    That is the issue. Not ordinary members,but those in positions of influence or power over current policy.

    I suppose I’m just as guilty as anyone of tarring everybody with the same brush. This must stop.

    We have to focus our energy on the real issue

  196. jfngw says:

    Saw this and first though was ‘Reservoir Knobs’, as they plan their heist on Scotland’s resources. Mr Orange has already been shot in the stomach it seems.

  197. auld highlander says:


    Forget what Doris is telling us about a second wave. It just jumps from one to another, plain and simple.

  198. F J Lynch says:

    Agree, Rev Stu. The end of the line: Uyghur Central, just after Honk Kong Halt…

  199. winifred mccartney says:

    Never mind banning a t-shirt with ‘I love JK’ on it – you are banned from taking a Saltire Flag into the Scottish Parliament at this very moment.

  200. F J Lynch says:

    Agree, Rev Stu. The end of the line: Uyghur Central, just after Hong Kong Halt…

  201. @Walter Jones says:

    `Can I ask, when did this love-in with this english person and anti Independence campaigner JK Rowling, begin?`

    when she had the courage and strength of character to stand up against the misogynists and paedophile enablers that are infesting Scottish politics, Scottish education, Scottish media and Scottish Net woke Rail,

    Scotland will soon be independent and i do not want my nation run by misogynists and paedophile enablers,

    just take a look at Rep of Ireland and Canada if you think that scenario couldn`t happen,

    and all because some whitey uni educated liberal wants a fricken `i am Woke` badge.

  202. ahundredthidiot says:

    It ain’t rocket science – free speech is more important than Independence.

    ask a North Korean, or someone who was alive and well living in the USSR/old East Germany. If you don’t have freedom, what point is Country?

    Those who do will notice very similar parallels appearing all over the place – having the goods on people in power (camera/mike on just about every device) – for the rest of us, shamed on social media to the extent you can lose your job, coupled with heinous Laws to keep us in check/shut us up.

    All opposition to anything a Government says or does becomes criminal. Living in what Unionist love referring to as a One Party State really isn’t conducive to freedom – not in anyones book.

    I had always thought the US to be in the wrong with holding on to their right to bear arms………not any more. Too late for us mind, we’re f*cked! The gang with the guns is always in charge.

  203. mike cassidy says:

    SNP NEC to force Cherry to resign as MP if she wants to stand as MSP

  204. Breeks says:

    Bob Mack says:
    31 July, 2020 at 9:15 am

    Joanna was right about Brexit. It is finished. She has recently also mentioned that this is now about Independence and how Scotland achieves that goal.

    I reluctantly agree that Brexited status is the new reality. Even a total Constitutional victory and vindication would not see Scotland emerging as a member of the EU. The best we can hope for is that the unconstitutional subjugation is declared unlawful.

    But what will run, and run, and run, and run until we stop it, is that Westminster and Holyrood have successfully colluded to subjugate the Scottish National Constitution, and may they rot in Hell for doing it.

    I tell you Scotland, if you tolerate this, your children will be next. By their acquiescence to Brexit, Scotland’s SNP “government” has in 2020, done the equivalent of signing the Ragman Rolls of 1296, abdicating sovereignty which isn’t theirs to begin with, and agreeing that Scotland should be subjugated to respect the will of English colonialism, and pledging homage and fealty to the Westminster Government through a puppet government which grovels before it’s English overlords.

    Well, not in my name. Personally, I don’t know how the SNP can dare to show their faces in Scotland. We should get their names emblazoned onto a 2020 Ragman Roll, and have their infamous sorry names preserved in perpetuity…

  205. Andy Ellis says:


    I hope Cherry DOES call their bluff & stand down, or better yet announce she and Alex have decided to form a new party.

    It becomes more obvious by the day the SNP are no longer that interested in securing independence, they’re much more interested in perpetuating their hold on Holyrood!

  206. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    So there we have it @ mike cassidy says at 9:56 am

    Barriers for J Cherry that weren’t imposed on AS vis a vis MP and MSP or Alan Smyth standing for MSP while an MEP!

    With Derek Mackay (apparently the anointed successor)compromised Mr Marmalade is obviously being lined up to succeed NS.

    IMHO J Cherry should now resign from the SNP and be an Independent MP at WM while standing as an Independent Candidate for MSP in E South.

    SNP would be like BLiS having to bus in activists to support while the real local grassroots canvass for JC.

    SNP really looks like they’re doing a New Labour these days!

  207. Clydebuilt says:

    List Only Parties are a Distraction

    Do we get anywhere if we don’t win over 50% of the vote.
    In fact a reasonable margin over 50% say 55%. If the SNP go into the 2021 election on an Independence ticket with the intention of (hoping) to force Johnsons hand into granting a Sect. 30 order, declaring UDI whatever, the party would need not just a majority of MSP’s they would need a majority of the vote (Scotland has to be content with the process of becoming Independent). This would result in a majority of SNP MSP’s
    So pro Independence list party is a distraction, We need to focus on winning big. . . .

    Thats it!

  208. Stuart MacKay says:

    @Andy Ellis

    Standing down is one of a series of traps. These new rules will have been designed to thwart the move. It would be utter incompetence on the leadership’s part to let Joana Cherry stand and win as that will signal the beginning of the end for them.

    Having said that, competence seems to be in short supply recently. A successful bid by Joana Cherry would be a clear signal to the rest of the party that change is coming and I’d expect the independence wing of the party (God, am I really typing that) to put their full weight behind her, Joan McAlpine, etc.

  209. Bob Mack says:


    That is a myth. It’s very very clear that a list party would add to the overall tally of Indy MSPs at Holyrood.

    Your thinking is like Orwell. You prefer us not to believe the evidence of our own eyes and ears. The party line only.

    Sorry but many have gone beyond that. We will be free whatever it takes. Loyalty is to Independence now and not a party.

  210. CameronB Brodie says:

    Please stop making up your own special reality. Yoons constitute 30% of Scotland’s electorate, at most. These are individuals who place British nationalist tradition above the rule-of-law. Unfortunately for Scotland, the Scottish government also appears to value British nationalist tradition over the rule of law. Hence, Scotland is being ripped from the EU by authoritarian English Torydum, without even the slightest resistance.

  211. Stuart MacKay says:


    It’s more likely that Johnson will send troops north of the border to protect pro-Union people and English interests than grant a Section 30 order. He simply has nothing to gain from it and a lot to lose. The “Britain will be great again” brigade will simply not tolerate losing all that oil and a place to park nukes and test missiles.

    Of course neither are likely but to think that there are only black and white solutions to this is naive. There are so many permutations of ways to bind independence supporters and keep the Union together.

    Independence is taken, not granted.

  212. Andy Ellis says:

    Interesting! Joanna Cherry’s last tweet 2 hours ago in response to Marco Biagi’s comment on Carlaw’s departure:

    “Yes I think you’ll find many things will start to move more quickly over next couple of months”

    Watch this space folks….!?

  213. Bob Mack says:

    Well it appears the NEC are putting the fix in for Angus Robertson for Edinburgh Central . Me Sturgeo n would have no idea about this of course.

    Just who are they trying to stop? Probably one of their most talented MPs who wants to stir up Holyrood having previously given the UK government a hiding in the law courts.

    Instead the SNP want Angus Robertson whose talents have done exactly what? Any takers?.

    This is exactly what is wrong within the party. You must see it.I

    I would back Me Cherry in a minute.

  214. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Isn’t the campaign to anoint Wee Dougie Ross as the next leader of the Scottish Tories simply a metaphor for how they view us Scots down in London.

    Wee Dougie is best-known as: “The Linesman.”When he turns up at a football ground to spoil our Saturday, he is only ever an assistant referee – he is listed as:

    A Category 3 – specialist assistant referee

    This means, they don’t trust him to actually take charge of a game, by being the man in the middle, with a whistle. He gets to run up and down the line, from half-way line to goal line; indicate when the ball has gone out of play, or indicate to the referee that he thinks he has seen an offence, such as a free kick or offside.

    His decisions, however, are subject to confirmation by the match referee – who can always over-rule Wee Dougie.

    Isn’t that a perfect metaphor for the relationship between the Scottish Tories and the Westminster ones? They will let Dougie (if elected) run up and down the political side lines, waving his wee (Union) flag and drawing their attention to offences which he thinks the Scottish Government is committing, but, the big decisions will be made in London.

    It’s a job The Linesman has been preparing for all his life.

    They will not risk parachuting him into Holyrood before the next election. The only way they could do that would be to persuade Truthless, or Jackass, or one of the other five who got elected in the constituency ballot to stand down, to force a by-election.

    In the current climate, there is no way the Scottish Tories could guarantee to win such a by-election, so, they will probably appoint a caretaker (or more likely bring back Truthless) until the election, then put Dougie top of one of the Regional Lists, to ensure he gets elected.

    Know your place Scotland right enough.

  215. Robert graham says:


    Remember when we used to do this here back in the old days, that’s when folk were reasonably civil , Happy Days eh .

    Anyway some weird and wonderful Graphs used last night on the BBC according to them we are worse than Italians the Spanish and another I can’t country remember , they showed a bar graph England was for taking sake x height, and Scotland was slightly less than x Height , oh the subliminal message was obvious,
    Do this lot ever give up on the pish they keep churning out, it started with a distorted view of Britain where Scotland barely registered on the weather map, bloody childish and they don’t realise how stupid they look.

  216. Bob Mack says:

    I’m laughing to myself here having twice written me instead of ms. Perhaps I’m subconsciously practicing for when pronouns are banned. Chuckles.

  217. Mialuci says:

    Why do people on this forum use big words and use big long sentences , life is to short to be bothered with reading all their guff, so I just have a quick shufty for about 5 minutes and that is as much as I can take in any one day
    Anyone that wants to be read should use plain everyday english, I mean when was the last time anyone came away with that well known term Legal Epistemology, I mean go into any pound shop and you can’t move for people talking about Legal Epistemology
    I refuse to expostulate I prefer to get right down to the nitty gritty lol

  218. CameronB Brodie says:

    If you are talking about a car engine, you might refer to cylinders and spark plugs. If you are talking about the law, epistemology comes into play.

    British constitutional convention lacks coherent epistemic logic, so can’t be considered legally robust.

    Normative Epistemology of Right to Self-Determination: A Case Study of Peoples of Jammu and Kashmir

  219. CameronB Brodie says:

    Although Ms. Cherry is a talented QC, she still apparently feels she must operate with the boundaries of British constitutional convention, which lacks coherence and compatibility with international law. So she’s on to plumbs if she thinks her approach will help Scotland much.

    Full text.

    Situationism, virtue epistemology, and self-determination theory

    Situationists (e.g., Doris in Lack of character: personality and moral behavior, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2002; Harman in Proc Aristot Soc 99:315–331, 1999., with reference to empirical work in psychology, have called into question the predictive and explanatory power of character traits and on this basis have criticized the empirical adequacy of moral virtue.

    More recently, Alfano (Philos Q 62(247):223–249, 2012; Character as moral fiction, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2013) has extended the situationist critique from virtue ethics to virtue epistemology. On the line he advances, virtue responsibilism – the view that intellectual character traits play an important part in traditional and untraditional epistemological inquiries – is criticized as empirically inadequate in light of the extent to which individuals are shown to be susceptible to seemingly trivial and epistemically irrelevant situational influences.

    Alfano’s attempted redeployment of the situationist challenge to virtue responsibilism is on closer inspection not as straightforward as he claims. It is granted that the empirical adequacy of virtue responsibilism will be eventually threatened if it can be shown that virtuous motivation is, in light of situational factors, causally ineffective.

    As it turns out, various psychological studies which situationists have overlooked, suggest that virtuous motivation is causally efficacious in a way that favours the position of the virtue responsibilist over the situationist.

    In the first part of this paper, I outline the hard core of virtue theory: both a rich motivation requirement, and a commitment to the inherent relation between virtue and a good life; then I assess whether these are undermined by situationist criticism. I address the confusion of the existing debate, and the conclusion drawn is that virtue theory ultimately remains unscathed.

    In the second part of my paper I defend the empirical adequacy of virtue theory based on self-determination theory. When we afford closer attention to studies on the orientation of our motivation, it becomes clear how the dynamics of our motivation have a tremendous influence on desirable behavioural outcomes: a good life.

  220. Mialuci says:

    There are people on this forum who have basically said they will NOt vote for the SNP as it is know, that is not just splitting the vote, that is cancelling my vote out, just put your bloody x on the paper, then you can bugger off if you don’t get your Independence, but there is one thing for certain, not voting at all will never get you your Independence, and if you cannot understand that fact, then I for one, feel sorry for you, but I feel more sorry for scotland for she deserves better

  221. CameronB Brodie says:

    Full text.

    The Moral Value of Collective Self?Determination and the Ethics of Secession

  222. Mialuci says:

    CameronB brodie

    Take my advice stop it, nobody is interested

  223. CameronB Brodie says:

    Take my advice, Scotland’s electorate needs to learn how to defend their legal identity, as the Scottish government appears unable to do their legal duty.

  224. Mialuci says:

    Hey Rev

    Just a thought could you not get your technical people to put a blocking aid on this site so we can block out all the long winded guff that just fills up the space here

  225. Mialuci says:

    Cameron, short and sweet, see it can be done lol

  226. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m trying to use plain English but sometimes big words can’t be avoided.

    Ethics in the Public Domain: Essays in the Morality of Law and Politics

    National Self-Determination

    This chapter deals with the moral justification of the case for national self-determination. It subject lies within the morality of international relations rather than within international law and international relations proper. It assumes throughout that states and international law should recognize such a right only if there is a sound moral case for it.

    The second section deals with the nature of groups that might be the subject of such a right. The third section considers the value served by the enjoyment of political independence by such groups. The fourth section considers the case for conceding that there is a moral right to self-determination.

    On the one hand, the right to self-determination is neither absolute nor unconditional. On the other hand, the interests of members of an encompassing group in the self-respect and prosperity of the group are among the most vital human interests.

    groups, self-government, self-determination, human interest, political independence

  227. Mialuci says:

    CameronB Brodie

    I do not need to use big words, especially big words and long winded diatribes to make myself understood, either here or in my normal everyday life, you are like the person sitting in a pub that has every seat taken apart from the seat beside you, and nobody wants that seat , they would rather stand than sit beside the town bore, and you my friend are boring us all here, as I said, keep it simple and people might read your comments, I just pass by your comments, lets be honest here, I can make better use of my time

  228. Polly says:

    @Cameron 🙂

    I found the link you sent me very interesting. If people don’t want to read them fine and no harm done, but they can be useful if followed up if anyone has the wit to realise it. I also note you sometimes seem to show a wicked sense of humour with the timing of some of your links. Maybe other folk miss that.

  229. AwakeNotWoke says:

    I can’t say I’m a particular fan of Rowling after her Indyref input. My kids like her books & the movies.
    I have, however, ordered a couple of I??JK Rowling tshirts which I shall be wearing often in public. No one is telling me what to think. Period.

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