Roll up for the mystery tour
The Glasgow Subway famously only ever goes round in circles, but that’s certainly not something you can say for Labour-run Strathclyde Partnership for Transport’s excuses for banning our adverts from it last month.
Because those are flying about all over the place.
First the ad company told us that SPT had pulled the ads in response to numerous complaints that they were “political”. Then SPT told the media that the ad company had pulled the ads itself after belatedly realising. Then the ad company said the same, lying that we’d claimed to be a charity (we hadn’t), and that we hadn’t told them we were a politics site (we had).
And now the story’s changing again. Newsnet Scotland reports today the results of an FOI request which reveals the ads were pulled not for being “political”, but because of bizarre and absurd allegations that this site (rather than the advert) is “openly racist, xenophobic, and transphobic”, as well as “thoroughly nasty” in general.
We challenge anyone to find a single sentence anywhere in the 2,329 articles we’ve published in the last two-and-a-half years that qualifies as “openly”, or indeed covertly, “racist”, “xenophobic” or “transphobic”. (Although those wouldn’t actually be “political” issues anyway, certainly not in the sense of SPT’s regulations.)
But there’s more. SPT expressly told several journalists (see links below) that they’d had “several” complaints about the ads. But when a Wings reader also sent them an FOI request, this is what they were told:
When required by law to tell the truth, SPT finally conceded that there had been exactly ONE complaint – presumably from our racism-alleging friend – and also that there had been a staggering 191 complaints about the ads being pulled.
We’d like to go on record thanking the complainant – doubtless one of our little crew of dedicated stalkers who regularly make the same baseless slurs – for their actions. The pulling of the ads generated vastly more publicity than the ads themselves could ever have dreamed of (with stories on the BBC, STV, Guardian, Press Gazette, Observer and elsewhere raising our profile far more widely and dramatically than a few cards on Glasgow’s underground), and as a bonus we even got all our money back.
But the fascinating aspect is the complete inability of the SPT to get its story straight, and the apparent belief that it could suppress the truth indefinitely when the company is subject to Freedom Of Information rules.
You’d think that by now the Labour establishment would finally have learned that independence supporters are a little more streetwise and savvy than that. But if you did, you wouldn’t be the first people to have grossly overestimated the intelligence of the party that still thinks Scotland is its own personal fiefdom.
Lies, damn lies, and the Labour party in Scotland
Do you think there’s any way of finding out who the one person that complained was?
It’s just it would be good if we could reward them somehow. Maybe with vouchers for a big department store or something? Even just some chocolates and a bottle of whisky.
I suppose you could send the reward to SPT and have them forward it on.
won
Do ads dream? Who knew?
The Unionist Scottish Labourite tendency is the embodiment of a particular kind of stupidity: stupid people who think they are clever. When allowed to get its hands on the levers of power, it can be the most dangerous stupidity of all.
If someone asked me who I thoucht might hae made that complaint, Ah’d huv tae say “Ah Dinnae Ken”.
I think that it would be an act of kindness to notify any businesses that are currently using SPT for advertising that they might be better to spend their money elsewhere until this mess is sorted out.
How long before SPT claim that the ban (and/or the response to the FOI request) was an “honest mistake” made by a junior official without the knowledge of the board?
Was just thinking the exact same thing Gordon. LOL
This type of advert is ok in Glasgow according to the UK Government / unionists.
link to bbc.co.uk
Yet the wings one is racist…
test
GCC/SPT Would like people to think that Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes.
Strange!
Just posted,a rather long winded explanation as to the demise of labour and it disappeared.Should’ve saved it before posting.
So, now all that’s been sorted out, SPT can presumably now run Wings ads again?
One complaint.One complaint brought down an ad campaign? Can just imagine other organisations reacting so for one complaint. 😀
Never mind who complained at the moment, I’m sure it will come out in time. However was the actual complainer identified on their complaint or was it anonymous? I’m sure that’s a fair question to SPT.
It was probably the great Severin Carrell of the Guardian, as well as tweeting to the world that the ad was an “attack on Scottish journalism.”
They have every single newspaper, ITV, the BBC etc all desperate to shut Scottish democracy so when one pro independence blog advertises, cue outrage from dudes like Carrell who really do think Scotland is their personal fiefdom.
Small minds. Small minds tend to become angst ridden when faced with big decisions. Just as Cameron.
I have a gut reaction to a dynamic site that is primarily hard news analysis and debate becoming the news itself. It dissipates energies and deflects objectives. I suppose it is inevitable; any entity head butting the establishment and questioning conventional wisdom is bound to be smeared and in turn become the centre of attention. Anyhow, let’s keep our artillery trained on the enemies of democracy.
This is priceless. One can just imagine the smugness of the complainant turn to despair as their one man smear campaign backfired in such spectacular style. I agree with Scottish Skier -this marketing wizard must be rewarded. Perhaps we could issue them with a framed print showing average pre & post SPT debacle site traffic.
What disturbs me is that upon receiving complaints the company did not bother to carry out any checks on the site, rather taking at face value what the complainant said. Also, the fact that there were 191 times the number of complaints about the pulling of the ads, why weren’t the posters put straight back up again, since they were quick to react to one complainant? Which leads to who was the complainant? Surely someone of considerable influence since it only took that person to get the ad pulled, given that the weight of 191 others weren’t sufficient to get them put back up.
If it was a private person who made the complaint then they are protected under the Data Protection Act presumably. If a public personage then I don’t know where they stand under FOI and DPA.
I used to work for an institution that had a a reasonable quota of intelligent people in it. However, every time the said institution put its foot in it chaos ensued. There was invariably an unseemly mad scramble to cover backs, invent excuses or find a scapegoat. It looks as if SPT, the CBI, the BBC and other august bodies suffer the same affliction.
Is there a problem with posting? My posts keep going missing.
Are they now going to offer to replace the ads as a show of good faith and prove that they’re not biased.After all,if they took the view of 1 complaint as true.Are they not also complicit in the defamatory view of that complainant?
Flabber is gasted. 1 against v 191 for wins the day in Glasgow.
What is it with UKOK organisations and their inability to get a story straight – a divine right to rule?
Heather
Yeah,my first one disappeared.
Ask for a public apology or else you will take them to court…..
Tried posting a couple of times but said I already posted the comment, so I added words to it and it disappeared again. Unless I’ve said something that needs moderated. I didn’t say anything bad or offensive or could be deemed illegal. Hey ho!
@Scottish_skier Wow, that’s just…wow. “Here’s the door, grab your coat”.
Robin Ross
It’s symptomatic of the disengagement from reality that these people have.They believe their own propaganda.
Long may it continue say I.While they’re busy countering another failure,they won’t have time to see the next blow.Hopefully right up until September when we deliver the KO punch and bring them hurtling into the real world.
Suggest you have another try to have an advert Rev at SPT, Paste the SPT letter onto a WOS headed note praising the merits of the FOI.
We challenge anyone to find a single sentence anywhere in the 2,329 articles we’ve published in the last two-and-a-half years that qualifies as “openly”, or indeed covertly, “racist”, “xenophobic” or “transphobic”.
That last one was the operative word; the boffins at SPT didn’t know what the other big words meant but openly hating transport systems was clearly beyond the pale.
That is racist and xenophobic, aye right, so telling the truth these days get the Labour Stalinist Treatment. They wonder why they are losing.
We are starting to see the demise of many of these faceless individuals who have seriously abused the public positions they hold to serve their own ends. Who authorised pulling the ad? Who decided the CBI would go to the commission? The arrogance of some on these board members, most openly exemplified by Iain McMillan of CBI Scotland, is staggering. But never before have they had to contend with the people finding a voice for an alternative view like those on Wings or the grassroots movement that is YES.
Clearly their time at the trough is nearing it’s end and we can see a real movement of the people, for the people emerging. If we can agree to continue to progress by consensus and acceptance of all the people being heard, then great things lie ahead for our rich and innovative country.
Betsy, I like it!
Unbelievable that one complaint can bring an ad to be pulled like that, but great that it had these unintended consequences by way of massive Wings publicity, and the icing on the cake, for free!. I am sure the complainant would treasure his/her framed print
Luckily it wasn’t the Scotsman, Daily Mail or Telegraph that was advertising.
Everyone who lives in the Glasgow area should keep their eyes open for any sign of a UKIP poster should they transpire (or on any other Strathclyde transport).
Even then …would this Labour-run set of charlatans allow Conservative or Liberal posters to be put up on their transports or council run buildings? (apologies …but I live in the east and work in Edinburgh)
I have a funny feeling SPT could be making a rod for their own back here.
Is Joanne Lamonts husband high up in spt?
“Is Joanne Lamonts husband high up in spt?”
He was, but I don’t think he is any more.
The letter is signed by Karen Miller,Paralegal, one of the minions of SPT. Obviously the hierarchy want to keep this at arms length so as not to be in the firing line for any repercussions.
Vote British Labour in Scotland = Shut down democracy.
(Cool Britannia ?)
Take ot the trains will be festooned with Uninon Flags for the Comm Games now ! No wait there Orange anyway.
I’m astonished
And the party that still advertises itself as the largest in Scotland!
where’s our wee comical Ally this weather?…..
Wings Over Scotland Roolz 🙂
Off topic. Is reality beginning to dawn at Tory HQ? ‘Conservative Home’ considers options for Cameron after September 19th result
link to conservativehome.com
It must be someone very powerful and important who complained!
What has also been useful during the referendum campaign is that not only we, but the public as a whole are being made ever more aware of the bodies, public and otherwise, and institutions that unionists think are there to reflect their will and opinions!
It must have been Carrell or, try spending a wee while in Severin’s we hate the SNP dont we world of twitter. He even tried to smear WoS for fraud, suggesting STP were duped that WoS is a charity or something like that. If there’s anything at all that can used to attack Scotland running Scotland, oor Severin’s on it!
It occurs to me that the ‘complainant’ may not be an actual member of the public as such. They may not even exist.
Back in the 60’s we had an ongoing letters debate through our local newspaper. One person in particular was a really nasty piece of stuff in their attacks upon the SNP and any form of home rule for Scotland.
One of our branch members took a drive over to check out this ‘person’s’ address. It turned out to be an empty shell of a building that nobody had lived in for decades.
Imagine if we discovered the complaint was generated internally, from within SPT.
Are you going to try to put the ads back up then?
I am very proud to have been one of “The 191”.
For information this was the SPT response…
Thank you for your comments, please see below a statement released by SPT.
“SPT advertising contract guidelines state that Subway sites should not be used to campaign or lobby for political benefit. Our advertising agency applies that standard to all commercial bookings but unfortunately this particular ad slipped through their net. The ad was taken down as a result.”
Extract from contract states:
3.22 Approval of Advertisements
…..any advertisement of a political, religious, sectarian, racist or sexual nature or which is likely to bring SPT into disrepute will not be permitted or approved.
I trust this information is helpful in explaining why the advert was withdrawn.
Sent on behalf of complaints.
There was a point in our history the SNP was arguing for absolutist policies guaranteed to restrict public support and Labour was arguing for a devolved parliament.
Then one day Salmond, armed with hard edged experience of Westminster at work, saw the light, and everyone reversed position. Salmond didn’t manage that on his own, nor did the SNP do it solely. As many a life-long Labour supporter said on turning to independence, “The party left me.”
Revhows about a cheeky we ad.
Are some people green as Grass ( green grass on one end )
As other people are more informed ( Kentucky blue grass on
the other end ) a wee Wings logo in the middle ( no other
wording ) Whispering grass the lies wont last.
I was one of the 191. That has made me realise that although it seemed futile at the time – “why bother”.
However this FOI makes the case – it is worthwhile.
We must keep recording our objections formally because you never know when it is going to be presented for analysis.
Which Glasgow DC ALEO gives them most money?
You’ll probably find Mr “Lamont” nudging in there.
The truth – They took them down because they personally and for their own reasons, didn’t want them there.
The story so far – Multiple excuses spreading responsibility in the hopes that no one person or group carries the can for a blatantly anti democratic action.
Kenny Henderson,
(One might expect Johann Lamont to have been aware of the SPT’s involvement, as her husband Archie Graham has been an SPT committee member since December 2008 and presumably could have checked the facts for her.)
Source WOS – 13/9/13
ianbeag,
Interesting – the knives are being sharpened already.
What is that old Tory saying – Et tu brute.
Scottish skier, that’s the first I’ve seen that “going home is simple” thing. I actually nearly vomited. My whole world has done backflips- here was me thinking “f*ck off back to bongo bongo land, Johnny foreigner” would be racist and “the papers aren’t reporting the facts from both sides, if you fancy a look at the yes arguments feel free to look at this website” was absolutely cordial and above board.
Turns out I’m a wrong ‘un.
“Is Joanne Lamonts husband high up in spt?”
Dunno about that, but Archie Graham is currently one of the Commonwealth Games Board of Directors.
link to glasgow2014.com
On the basis of one complaint does the trick for removal, looks like the BT poster ad due soon is about to receive loads of complaints for every single one of them…
If I may puff; I was one of those 191 who complained in writing about the ads being pulled.
Anyway, what’s obvious here is that a staunchly Labour managed organisation needed the thinnest of excuses to justify pulling a completely fair advert off their rolling stock.
Heck, all it might have taken was a phone call to one of their chums to send in a written complaint so that they could claim a legitimate reaction.
So what have we learned? Well, it would appear that this Labour run organisation, when provided the opportunity, will suppress free speech, it considers damaging to Labour, politically, argumentatively, spiritually or philosophically.
It’s a small but significant example of how the wider British state operates. It pretends to give the impression that we live in a democracy but really, we don’t.
We could but we have to fundamentally change our constitution & the structure of our parliament. The only foreseeable way of achieving this is via independence.
I have never read anything on this site that could be described as ‘“openly racist, xenophobic, and transphobic”, as well as “thoroughly nasty” in general.’
So is pulling an ad on these grounds not defamatory? I would advise getting a legal opinion as it certainly will give the impression that there must be some reason behind it – “no smoke without fire”! A public apology and an offer to run the ad without charge would be the least compensation.
Bet it was that Duncan Mothersall cat
If one complaint can bring an advertising campaign to a halt, what will happen if we all write to LIDL to complain of their association with the scurrilous attack on the Weirs in the Nazi supporting Mail?
Is posting youtubes still allowed? My last post with a link didn’t appear. Maybe the DOS attacks again?
Carfin Grotto saga..
link to news.bbc.co.uk
@Chic –
You’ve got to take out everything before the www bit, elsewise they get bagged. I think…
Chance for a Defamation case there Rev, if ever there was. Let the complainant state their false assertions and allegations in court and see where it gets them.
These are the current members of SPT – a mixture of Councillors from surrounding councils & appointees.
link to spt.co.uk
No sign of Mr Graham – I guess he’s busy with the Commonwealth Games expense account, rather than this one
The one complainants name?, there are quite a few take your pick= Alan Cochrane, Lord Fouksake, Lord Forsyth , no one from the Scottish Labour group cause they do not think, nore act quick enough,how about the Sun’s A. Nicoll?,mind you now that I think about it, Labour’s Ian Gray has a likening for subways!!.
Croompenstein, its the old ‘divide and conqur’ trick… John Reid is the perfect example. His words are for one side of the made up divide, while he personally profits from the other side.
My own opinion is that he is a self-serving horrible excuse for a human being.
Thanks Iain I’ll try again
link to youtube.com
Without naming anyone, I can think of two individuals who would be high on the list of suspects mate.The wording on the complaint has gone past my time-line a lot in the last few months. 🙂
I apologise for having incorrectly posted this comment on the wrong article initially: To be fair, Wings Over Scotland has a history of transphobia. Care to apologise for this? I support you guys completely in matters of independence, but this is really not cool: link to athousandflowersblog.files.wordpress.com
“To be fair, Wings Over Scotland has a history of transphobia.”
No it doesn’t. Those comments aren’t transphobic, however hysterically people try to pretend otherwise, and they’re also nothing whatsoever to do with Wings Over Scotland – they’re taken from a personal conversation on a different Twitter account. The other person concerned, a very good friend of mine, subsequently tweeted to clarify that we were arguing about semantics, not gender rights.
My position, for the avoidance of doubt, is that transgender people deserve to have all the same rights as anyone else, to dress and live and love and marry however and whoever they choose, and not to be discriminated against in any way. I would defend those rights to the death.
I, however, reserve the right to my own view on what sex someone with a Y chromosome and male genitalia is. If I suddenly decide I’m a black guy I don’t actually change colour. If someone witnessed me committing a crime and described me to the police as a black man they’d get arrested for perjury.
Also, unlike “A Thousand Flowers” I’ve never harassed and abused a woman so much she actually emigrated from the UK as a direct result, so I won’t take any pious fucking lessons from them on the subject anyway.
@ianbeag says:
Off topic. Is reality beginning to dawn at Tory HQ? ‘Conservative Home’ considers options for Cameron after September 19th result
I have archived this one at: link to archive.today
The bit about why David Cameron should resign after the YES vote reads like “because he failed to impede democracy”.
Rev. Can the posters be made available to forum users ?
“Rev. Can the posters be made available to forum users ?”
Already have been:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
That’s still transphobic, actually. You cannot reserve the right to decide what gender a person is – it’s not your choice. Gender is a personal thing, and only an individual person can know and say who they are (this is different from sex, which is biological).
And if those quotes were from an unrelated Twitter account, why were they clearly sent from the Wings Twitter account? If it was a personal conversation then they could have used their own account.
I’m sorry but the accusation appears bang on here, unfortunately. By the way I don’t claim to speak for A Thousand Flowers, I was shown the link by someone else when I was speaking about this article; I’ve never actually heard of or looked at their site and couldn’t care about it either way.
“That’s still transphobic, actually.”
No it’s not. I neither hate nor fear transgender people. I have an opinion which is backed by law, backed by medical fact, backed by language and shared by pretty much everyone on Earth except for a handful of mad fundamentalists. If possession of a Y chromosome and male genitalia doesn’t make you a “man” (as opposed to a “woman”) then the word “man” no longer has any empirical meaning and we might as well go back to grunting and living in caves.
“only an individual person can know and say who they are”
That’s not even remotely true, of course. If Andy Murray suddenly felt that he was a woman trapped in a man’s body, he still wouldn’t be allowed to enter the women’s singles at Wimbledon. If he went crazy at being refused and smashed someone’s face in, they wouldn’t put him in a women’s prison. It wouldn’t be his decision. Other people get to decide what we are all the time.
If Chelsea Manning wants to think he’s a woman, that’s entirely fine by me. If he wants to live as a woman, I completely support him in that. If he wants to marry a bloke, I wish him nothing but happiness. I think what he did with Wikileaks was heroic. But he doesn’t get to tell me what sex *I* think he is.
And nor do you, however much you try to bully people with witch-huntery. You want everyone to have the right to have an opinion, but only if it agrees with what YOU say, and anyone who dares dissent gets screamed down and smeared and abused as a “-phobe” or an “-ist”, when actually what they are is someone with a different view to you, and for which they’ve made a perfectly calm, logical and reasoned case.
“And if those quotes were from an unrelated Twitter account, why were they clearly sent from the Wings Twitter account?”
The ORIGINAL quotes which caused the fuss weren’t. The ones you linked to, and which ATF deliberately selected in order to misrepresent the reality, were from an argument with someone like you attacking me on the Wings account for what I said on another one. You’ll note they also didn’t include the other side of the conversation.
The fact that you evidently haven’t even read the original comments is telling. But hey, don’t let that stop you having a strident opinion about them.
I’m done with this argument now.
I echo Stu’s thanks to the complainant. The subsequent items in the national press is how I came to hear about ‘Wings’ and I have pointed many people to this site ever since.
@ Adam Lewis,
Certainly from that snapshot you could argue there are transphobic comments. However- what is clear from that screenshot is we are seeing the middle of a conversation. I’m neither defending those comments nor condemning them, what I am saying is that we cannot make judgements based on half the information. Much as many people (usually New Labourites) try to pretend context is irrelevant- it isn’t.
Stewart lee did an excellent comedy vehicle epsiode on context and I stand by his point that we can’t have “contextless words” or in this case sentences. If we are to ask for high standards of discourse and debate we can’t be folly in the same way as the BT folk are by cherry picking and editing. “Let what people say stand, but let it all stand and in context, before you judge them on what it” is a good rule to live by. I don’t judge people on half a snippet of a whisper of a conversation.
@GH Graham 27 April, 2014 at 12:28 pm says:
“It’s a small but significant example of how the wider British state operates. It pretends to give the impression that we live in a democracy but really, we don’t.
We could but we have to fundamentally change our constitution & the structure of our parliament. The only foreseeable way of achieving this is via independence.”
This exactly is what we are up against. We have to keep on getting this message across and hoping this will convince the naysayers to vote accordingly for Independence.
@ Adam Lewis, whilst this conversation is nothing to do with me, you cannot tell someone how to think.
You can disagree with them as you wish and put your point of view – which may be technically correct but trying to control the way a person thinks is straight out of 1984.
TheItalianJob and GH Graham
Exactly. We live in a ‘hypocracy’ not a ‘democracy’.
And an increasingly intolerant and counter-productive ‘PC’ one as well.
So 1 complaint against.
191 complaints for.
The 1 complaint wins. Why?
The 191 complaints are meaningless if the original complaint was upheld. Protesting about legitimate rules being upheld is not going to get you anywhere. The question is whether that original complaint WAS legit and if rules really were broken.
“The 191 complaints are meaningless if the original complaint was upheld. Protesting about legitimate rules being upheld is not going to get you anywhere. The question is whether that original complaint WAS legit and if rules really were broken.”
Another reply I’ve just seen says:
“SPT does not have an advertising policy”.
I have no time for A Thousand Flowers. My fair comment on their attack blog on Rev Stu was not published. Any blog which claims to be accepting of all people refusing to publish a comment that’s not spam or outright hateful is not a site worth supporting or reading.
On topic, it reads like SPT (read Labour) were looking for any excuse to have the ads pulled if one complaint was enough.
To be fair, Wings Over Scotland has a history of transphobia. Care to apologise for this?
Adam
We do? :O
I have posted here a lot for a fair while and I can’t recall us discussing gender issues at all other than once in a thread where Stu’s argument on Twitter was mentioned in passing. I doubt if you will find anyone here that doesn’t think Bradley/Chelsea should be released from prison and given a fecking medal for services to civil liberties. What he then decides to do regarding gender is entirely up to him and I think we would all wish him every happiness.
There is not an ounce of hatred for Manning here regardless of whatever desperate purchase our opponents scrabble to take hold of to find some mud to fling.
Regarding the complaint and the pulling of the ad and the fact that photos of the ads in situ were sighted everywhere in the MSM would be considered by an advertising agency as a stroke of absolute genius and they would be patting themselves on the back in a very, if slightly irritating, self satisfied way. To get the money back on top of all that is just very sweet icing on the cake.
Let us all take a moment to be self satisfied in a slightly irritating way…I am sure Better Together won’t mind or hold it against us. 🙂
I do miss the edit function, that first sentence is too long and in itself slightly irritating.
I’ve just sent you an e-mail Stu, or at least I think I sent you an e-mail with the response I received from SPT. Hope you get it and not SPT. 😛
Rev. Stuart Campbell 2:39
I have a response saying that as well. Saying it was a clause in the advertising contract which prohibited the ad. (What is that if it is not an advertising policy?)
Anyway, it also goes on to refer to, and claim they are bound by, Section 2 of the Local Govt Act 1986, and this where it gets interesting.
Section 2 of this Act would appear to prohibit Aberdeen City Council’s action regarding their letter issued to council tax payers. I wonder what your opinion is?
Sorry O/T
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I’ve been reading the site for a while and have a great deal of respect for the work you’ve done for the Independence cause. Having said that, I find your attitude to the ‘semantics’ of the trans community to be horribly disappointing.
Let’s take your analogy to ‘deciding I’m a black man’. What an awful reduction of what a trans person goes through. It’s a ridiculous soundbite akin to something lifted from a tabloid newspaper.
I’m sure this has been pointed out to you before, but ‘gender’ isn’t ‘sex’.
You think Chelsea Manning should be referred to as ‘he’? Really? You sound like my dad. Even Fox News uses the feminine pronoun these days (grudgingly I’m sure, but it’s there).
Of course, it’s your right to do so. Just as it’s my right to call you out for being a dick about it.
I completely agree that people are tarred with the ‘-phobic’ brush all to swiftly these days by people who have no understanding of its meaning, but by using the language of the bigot you make it easy for people to make that assumption of you.
The bottom line is, surely it’s just a matter of politeness and common decency to refer to a person in the gender to which they identify?
“Let’s take your analogy to ‘deciding I’m a black man’. What an awful reduction of what a trans person goes through. It’s a ridiculous soundbite akin to something lifted from a tabloid newspaper.”
Why? Why should race be fundamentally any different to gender in this context?
I’d be a lot more willing to be convinced by the arguments if anyone actually addressed any of the issues instead of just whining that anyone who disagrees with them is a bigot. If Chelsea Manning WAS good at tennis, where would you have him play? The men’s singles or the women’s, or would you have a whole separate transgender category for all sports?
(And how would that work? Would you pit people who are genetically men but identify as women against the opposite, or would you subdivide it further into “transgender men” and “transgender women” categories? What about pre-op, post-op and variants thereof? Do you begin to see how nonsensical that would be?)
It’s not a rhetorical question, it’s the heart of the matter – what people demonstrably, measurably ARE rather than what they FEEL.
The leading case in point is the Commission for Local Authority Accounts in Scotland v Grampian Regional Council – 1994 S.C. 277
Ironically this case related to Grampian Council making payments to two bodies which advocated the establishment of a Scottish legislature.
The prohibition in terms of s.2(1) of the 1986 Act is that:
(1) A local authority shall not publish [, or arrange for the publication of,] 1 any material which, in whole or in part, appears to be designed to affect public support for a political party.
In determining whether the material falls to be prohibited you have to read s.2(1) with s.2(2)(a) and (b) which reads as follows:
(2) In determining whether material falls within the prohibition regard shall be had to the content and style of the material, the time and other circumstances of publication and the likely effect on those to whom it is directed and, in particular, to the following matters—
(a) whether the material refers to a political party or to persons identified with a political party or promotes or opposes a point of view on a question of political controversy which is identifiable as the view of one political party and not of another;
(b) where the material is part of a campaign, the effect which the campaign appears to be designed to achieve.
There is an argument based on the above that the material falls to be prohibited given the referendum is “a question of political controversy” and a “no vote” is the established view of certain political parties.
Audit Scotland should be asked to submit a stated case to the courts for a ruling on this issue.
This is essentially what they did in the 1994 case referenced above (albeit the stated case was submitted by The Commission for Local Authority Accounts in Scotland whose staff now form part of Audit Scotland)
@Juan P
Thanks for your comments. This is exactly my interpretation, in that the Referendum would fall under the “political controversy” description.
Curious then that Audit Scotland have seen fit to clear ACC of any wrong doing:
link to news.stv.tv
The above article of course makes no reference to which “rules” (I would say laws) were checked against. Furthermore, I have been unable to find a report or even a reference to this decision on the Audit Scotland website.
I hope Stu finds this interesting enough to pick up and run with.
Amusing that the reply from the SPT debacle provides ammunition for another battle.
It’s completely different because race is determined by external characteristics and one’s heritage. But the notion that there are only two genders – male and female – is entirely a cultural construct with no actual biological meaning.
You clearly know next to nothing about transgender issues or you wouldn’t be saying such things. Gender isn’t a binary, it’s a spectrum and while most people are entirely male or female, there are many who are varying degrees of one, the other and/or both.
Additionally, transition is a long process – a person may identify as female but still have male genetalia for some years before the process is completed. In such cases, they should still be addressed with female pronouns if such is their choice.
With sports, it is indeed a tricky issue because of things like hormonal balance that can have a competitive impact. There are no clear answers yet, as Caster Semenya, an inter-sex athlete who was subjected to horrifying discrimination and persecution, could tell you. But as transgender rights become more important and more known about, such issues will be discussed more often.
There is no reason to deny a person the right to be the gender they know themselves to be and to respect that. Chelsea Manning has now been legally recognised as female, too, so there’s no ambiguity there. To deny someone that right or to act like it isn’t their choice and theirs alone is bigoted; that’s just the way it is.
“But the notion that there are only two genders – male and female – is entirely a cultural construct with no actual biological meaning.”
Oh, DO fuck off.
I’m out again. I simply don’t have the ability to smile and politely tolerate that sort of ridiculously stupid bullshit, and the alternative is just everyone getting angrier.
No bother.
Audit Scotland haven’t cleared the council though.
Instead they’ve stated that:
“On the question of prohibition of political publicity under the 1986 Local Government Act, this would be a matter for the courts to decide”
The courts can’t decide on the issue though until someone presents them with a case to consider i.e. by way of stated case
Again, with your tennis analogy you are being silly and reductive. 30 seconds on Google would’ve answered your question:
“The LTA has adopted the International Tennis Federation’s (ITF) policy on transgender players.
Any individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female before puberty are regarded as girls and women (female), while those undergoing reassignment from female to male before puberty are regarded as boys and men (male).
Individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and the converse) are eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions…”
You can read the full statement here:
link to lta.org.uk
“Again, with your tennis analogy you are being silly and reductive. 30 seconds on Google would’ve answered your question:”
…the answer being that the LTA says people are either one or the other based on definable physical characteristics, which is my point entirely. When Chelsea Manning gets his junk chopped off and all the rest of it, I’ll be totally happy to call him “her”. It’ll be a bit odd because the Y chromosome will still be there, but hey, you’ve got to respect commitment.
Perhaps if all the tennis players wore those lovely short dresses the whole problem would go away?
“Perhaps if all the tennis players wore those lovely short dresses the whole problem would go away?”
I think we’d ALL like to see Novak Djokovic in one.
Andy could have one in a white tartan!
“Fuck off”
Wow, I stand in awe of your dizzying intellect! As already demonstrated, you didn’t even bother to spend 10 seconds checking the facts, instead dismissing myself and Quentin as bullshit peddlers. This speaks very badly of your claim that there is no basis to the accusation of transphobia levelled in the original article. Hopefully it’s just you and other writers aren’t so ignorant, but either way, it’s disappointing.
“As already demonstrated, you didn’t even bother to spend 10 seconds checking the facts, instead dismissing myself and Quentin as bullshit peddlers.”
Because you are. The LTA has no “gender spectrum”. It has men and women. Whatever you started out in life as, you still have to be one or the other as far as they’re concerned, and the definition is physical, not mental.
Adam, darling as long as we refer to Chelsea as Chelsea we don’t need to use ‘he’ or ‘she’ – and anyway I was always taught to refer to people by their name, after all I could call myself Alexander.
A question: If you had a friend who was transitioning from male to female, who dressed and identified as female and who preferred to be referred to as ‘she’, but who hadn’t (as you so delightfully put it) “had their junk chopped off”, you would still insist on calling her a ‘he’?
I’m guessing ‘yes’ as you’ve just dismissed the entire concept of the gender spectrum as ‘ridiculously stupid bullshit’. Maybe you should do a bit of reading on it?
I was hoping to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I’m starting to think those people accusing you of transphobia might have a point.
“A question: If you had a friend who was transitioning from male to female, who dressed and identified as female and who preferred to be referred to as ‘she’, but who hadn’t (as you so delightfully put it) “had their junk chopped off”, you would still insist on calling her a ‘he’?”
When do you ever refer to someone as “he” or “she” when you’re talking to them? I’d call them by their chosen name, like I do all my other friends.
Adam Lewis
Making up arguments to defend a position is counterproductive to anyones aim of reaching a resolution.I get the feeling that you’re only here for an argument to prove the no sides point and are making a laughing stock of yourself.
The whole thing is a ridiculous semantic argument, and to use that to label Stu “transphobic” is beyond ridiculous. To go further and label Wings transphobic is obviously the work of someone with a serious political agenda.
I kind of agree in principle about people’s identity being their choice, and of course I would take care to refer to any transgender person by the pronoun of their choice when speaking to them or about them with any of their other friends. And indeed I do.
But oddly enough I find it difficult. A longstanding male friend many years ago told me on the phone in a very emotional conversation that he was undergoing gender reassignment. I immediately took the position of utmost sympathy and basically said welcome sister.
But although this was a long time ago, I still can’t easily refer to Ashley as “she”. Perhaps it’s because Ashley was always his/her name and because it was unisex he/she didn’t change it. Perhaps it’s because I don’t see him/her much these days, having moved a long way away. Perhaps it’s because I had occasionally seen Ashley cross-dressing well before there was an question of a sex change, when it was passed off as fancy dress, and frankly the Ashley of today looks much the same.
I find I just don’t talk about Ashley, unless I really have to, because I find it really really awkward to refer to her and think of her as “she”. And Ashley is my friend and I hold no ill will to her at all and I’m massively impressed by what she has achieved. (See, I’m managing it!)
This is a difficult issue and many people can’t simply turn on the “correct” semantics to order. To reduce this sensitive debate to howls of “transphobic” when someone expresses their difficulties with the semantics is extraordinarily crass. To label the Wings web site with that term simply because Stu has expressed these thoughts in another context is pure political posturing.
The other day I had a run-in with Duncan Hotdogstall because he labelled Derek Bateman “misogynistic” for including a couple of pictures of belly-dancers on a blog piece likening BT to a stripper. He set himself – a man – up as some sort of self-appointed guardian of women’s rights or feelings or something like that. I told him women didn’t need him to defend them from something they didn’t find offensive in the first place (I don’t know of one woman who has complained and Derek has a lot of female readers), and that hijacking women’s rights to throw an entirely contrived and insincere smear at a political opponent was beyond despicable.
He replied, “oh please” and quit the conversation.
This is exactly the same thing. The person who complained (and we know who it was, don’t we?) isn’t even faintly bothered about the rights of transgender people or any of the other people he claims Wings is “phobic” about. His entire intent is to smear Wings and discredit the web site because it is having so much impact. We’ve seen it on Twitter. Someone discovers Wings and tweets about how good it is, and this troll or one of his useful idiots chips in with “How can you visit that homophobic transphobic hate blog?” And the newbie starts to wonder.
So let’s not join the corps of the useful idiots and stir the pot in an entirely futile attempt to get Stu to do some sort of hair-shirt retraction. First he is as thrawn as hell and he won’t do it, and second because even if he did it wouldn’t make any difference to these guys. They only want to smear and the reason isn’t important.
Wings is our lifeline in this debate, and we need to be able to tell these people to stick their smears where the sun don’t shine, not do their dirty work for them by dragging the conversation on to the blog itself.
Quentin Quire
This gender spectrum thing.Would you be happier if we just called everybody “it” and do away with he/she?
Stu
How about contacting the LGBT for YES group to come on and lay to rest these shitstirring trolls
Some of us do care about those things. It might just be semantics to you but it’s a lot more than that to a trans person. I used to evangelise about WoS until that Twitter exchange occurred. Since then, I’ve not felt comfortable reading or sharing the site with any of my peers.
Stu is Wings Over Scotland. That’s why I was so disappointed when his views on this subject came up. How could someone with such a positive, progressive attitude to politics hold such outdated views on gender?
But fair enough, your mind is clearly made up on this. I’ll be on my way.
“Stu is Wings Over Scotland. That’s why I was so disappointed when his views on this subject came up.”
My views that trans people should be able to live their lives any way they want without discrimination and with full equal rights under the law? Yeah, I’m a monster.
Why is it so important to you to control what I think? Why is it so unbearable to you that anyone sees things even slightly differently to the way you see them? And given that this is the first (and please God, the last) time the issue’s ever been discussed here, are you really so petty that you’d keep all the information on this site away from undecided referendum voters over it?
Fantastic, sympathetic, empathetic, every-etic post Morag.
Please pay heed to her last paragraph.
I’m confused, what about hermaphrodites? what do you call them?
Stu – as I’ve already said, with athletic competition, there is a physical reason to care because of the hormonal balance. That is why there were such tests done on Caster Semenya, not that I justify the treatment of her in the slightest. That’s a specific context for a specific reason, and doesn’t reflect how things should be in life generally.
I have no political agenda because I firmly support independence, the SNP, and what Wings are trying to do. So I’m not a “shit-stirring troll” either, regardless of what one might think.
Croompenstein – you call them what they wish to be called. Some will prefer one or other gender pronoun, or something more neutral.
Croompenstein
Slugs
@Juan P
How do we get a case presented?
Adam
Your last post is full of contradictions.Are you saying women with a high testosterone count should not be allowed to take part in in single sex sports?Or men with a high oestrogen level should be banned because they’d be disadvantaged?
And as for not having a political view..well you could’ve fooled me,but you didn’t.
Quentin
Do you refuse to talk with everyone with a different view to your own?If you do,you must be very lonely and might explain how you find life so difficult for poor little you..haud oan,an ah’ll get the fiddle oot.
Stu, is there a source to hand for the Thousand Flowers harrassment/emigration story? I’d like to show it to a friend of mine, a Yes supporter, who now dismisses Wings because of the “transphobia” storm in a teacup.
“Stu, is there a source to hand for the Thousand Flowers harrassment/emigration story?”
I’ll see if I can find it again.
What Morag said – in spades.
Good grief – transphobia is an irrational fear of folk who are transgender, where is there any hint of that on this thread or any other? What’s that word that is to do with what words mean? Oh yes – semantics.
“But the notion that there are only two genders – male and female – is entirely a cultural construct with no actual biological meaning.”
That is probably the most stupid thing ever quoted on this site and that includes the things from Johan.
When gormless dimwits are pandered to by the YES camp, it simply creates a vacuum of dimwitted gormlessness.
TO THE GULAG!
It’s alright for you humans – us amoebas, hydras and earthworms have to decide on our gender on a daily basis.
It’s alright for you humans – us amoebas, hydras and earthworms have to decide on our gender on a daily basis.
Now, that’s clever. Chuckle…
We seem to have strayed a long way from adverts on subway trains.
When learning German I had a right argy-bary with the tutor over why a bloody window should be female: Die fenster. “Because in this sentence it is,” came the answer.
Why do Labour polytishuns think Scotland is better ruled by Westminster? “Because in this age it is.”
Just for the record, I’m about to rock a few folks boats here no doubt, I am post op male to female Transsexual. I have been so for close on 20 years now, I have been there, read the book, starred in the movie got the T-shirt and YES had the op. 😛
I have been a regular visitor to this site for quite a length of time now, I can’t actually remember when I first came across it but it feels like decades ago, I know it isn’t. 😉 All I can say is that in all this time I have never come across anything that Stu, or anyone else has said on this site as being transphobic. In fact I’m sure if I had come across such activity I would certainly have said something at the time. If there is one thing I know about Trans gendered people, and I have met a fair number in my time, they are not slow in coming forward to defend themselves.
At the end of the day it is only people who are going, or have gone, through the process of gender reassignment surgery who have, in my view, the right to stand up and make accusations of transphobia against anyone. The same holds true for gays and Lesbians. So unless the people currently accyusing Stu, and others, of being transphobic are actually trans gendered themselves then I have only one thing to say…
Until you have endured what WE have endured you know nothing about being Transgendered and as such you have no right to stand and preach to others about the pros and cons of ttrans gender issues. You can hold a view but that is ALL it is a view but this does NOT give you the right to castigate others for something you have not experienced yourself! If there is any castigating to be done on this site then leave it ,please, to those with first hand experience of the issues. Do not assume to be a speaker and “protector” for me or people like me, as I said previously we have a mouth and a b rain we can, if we choose, stand up and profess our anger, disagreement or whatever ourselves thank you very much!
@ Arbroath 1320 – and that is a definite full stop xxx
Arbroath 1320
Well said lass.
Paula Rose says:
@ Arbroath 1320 – and that is a definite full stop xxx
Aye I was running out of breath 🙂
I forgot to add that I’ll get ma coat at the end as well 😉
Thanks for that Paula xxx
Is it OK to talk about the advert or independence again?
Independence – a country fit for heroes xxx
Well said Arboath 1320!
Quentin Quire got it wrong when he stated:
Stu is Wings Over Scotland.
No he’s not. People like Arbroath 1320 ARE.
goldenayr says:
Arbroath 1320
Well said lass.
Think I might have to leave ythis thread for a wee while I can feel my eyes starting to well up. 😛
We are the wings, and Quentin and Adam got their wires crossed – come out boys and join the party, be brave and embrace a new world.
Paula Rose says:
Independence – a country fit for heroes xxx
Thepnr says:
Well said Arboath 1320!
Quentin Quire got it wrong when he stated:
Stu is Wings Over Scotland.
No he’s not. People like Arbroath 1320 ARE.
Awe shucks! 😛
Arbroath 1320 – that’s them telt. Good on ya. 🙂
Whoopee, and Arb wins the thread. And the coconut and the t-shirt and the cuddly toy.
She has a right to speak because she is affected, just as I came on strong with Dunc the other day because I am a woman and he is not and I’ll decide when I want to be offended not him thank you very much.
I didn’t even know Arb was trans, I just remember some people assumed the moniker was of a man and then were corrected to inform them that Arbroath1320 is a lady.
I think this illuminates the semantics debate. I don’t have the slightest problem thinking of Arb as female or addressing her as she, and that’s no different now after what she just said. That’s because I’ve never known her any other way. It’s just the way she is.
From my point of view the difficulty is changing. It’s reassigning someone in your head to the opposite sex from the one you KNOW them to be. And that can be a problem whether it’s someone you know or someone who is already a public figure.
But the bottom line is that Arb is going to know transphobia when she sees it, and we all know she ain’t shy about voicing her opinion. She’s no more worried by Stu than I as a woman am worried by either Stu or Derek. And that really should be the end of it.
Arbroath 1320
C’mon ower,we can both greet wi laughter…don’t forget the red wine though.
Honestly Stuart I don’t know how you do this day after day and remain semi-sane when your every utterance is scrutinised the f*ck out of, major kudos to you for fighting through
If we are still on the subject of the adverts..I am proud to say I was one of the 191 and my reply from SPT can be seen here
youtu.be/ttH8BND1BzY
Thanks very much TJenny. 😉
Wow, Morag, what can I say.
I read your piece earlier and understood exactly what you were going through. I have an aunt who still refers to me as *ahem* ‘son’…ARGH! 🙂 Still I understand, cause she has known me for over 30 years as a male I always knew it was going to be difficult for her. I have never pushed the issue with her, I’m just happy that she is accepting if not fully understanding of the situation. At least she tries, more than could ever be said for my parents but hey that’s another story for another day. 😛
goldenayr says:
Arbroath 1320
C’mon ower,we can both greet wi laughter…don’t forget the red wine though.
Just tell me where and when goldenayr. Oh by the way can I bring my partner too, she’s *ahem* trans as well. 😛
Arbroath1320
Good post.
FWIW, I was also one of the 191, and I didn’t get any reply.
erm, before all my new found fame and heroics go to my head, I think it might be too big as it is already. 😛
Can I just apologise to you Stu for what appears to be a slight hijacking of this article. It wasn’t planned. HONEST! ;P
In reference to the class of 191 as Stu, hopefully knows, I too was one of the “Famous 191.” 😉
Arbroath 1320
The more the merrier,bring more wine though.I’ll give you a clue as to where.It’s east of your moniker..;-]
Once upon a time there were very few women on wings – now there are more angels than can dance on the head of a pin. (adverts, shmadverts)
Only joking,actually not far from you at the moment.Think Dougie MacLean country
goldenayr says:
Arbroath 1320
The more the merrier,bring more wine though.I’ll give you a clue as to where.It’s east of your moniker..;-]
Oh that’s going to be fun, I’m down in Dumfries and Galloway so a nice long drive to start the day. 😛
This is a mystery tour – so nae surprises!
@Ian Brotherhood
You didn’t miss anything enlightening..standard bullcrap
A powerful series of comments.
That must have taken courage to ‘out’ yourself Arbroath. You have my respect.
I love this site, it makes me smile 🙂
D&G..sheesh…bring lots of wine,nibbles and whatever else you can think of.The nearest shop is 5 miles and I’ve no car at the moment.
I was hoping to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I’m starting to think those people accusing you of transphobia might have a point.
Quentin
Were you though? We get blitzed by concern trolls all the time on any number of issues and you are coming across like one.
I’ve seen transphobia in action on other threads and this ain’t it. There are people out there who want Manning dead and yet here we are arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin/what specific point gender change takes place. No one is saying that Manning can’t do this and we all wish him/her well and, importantly, free. So if that is transphobia then the definition is wanting. You could try some of the No sites particularly the red white and blue militaristic ones. There you will see real hatred.
However, if you have come here with an a priori assumption that we are a shower of bastards then I am sure that is what you will take away with you. We are not going to jump through hoops just to please somebody else’s definition of an issue. We are just not that needy.
I love this site cos we even let the Rev join in –
I love my Rev cos he does good writing yeah!
It just occurred to me that in a couple of hundred years, students studying the history of of the rebirth of their country will be looking at archives of info like this site and others for an insight into what motivated their ancestors. I’m immensely proud that in a small way I and more so others that have posted here are making history.
Paula Rose
Sook.
Bugger that was a waste of time Arbroath 1320 has already won the internets and pwned the thread*
Go Arbroath! 🙂
*Kids taught me the lingo.
Juteman says:
A powerful series of comments.
That must have taken courage to ‘out’ yourself Arbroath. You have my respect.
Thanks for that Juteman. To be honest I prefer the time and place of my ‘outing’ to be chosen by myself rather than have pissed up drugged up moron do it. Still even though I’ve now done it here I have to admit I did have some fair old humming and hawing before typing up my post. I was kinda nervous about admitting who I actually was. I think hiding behind my moniker sort of made me feel a we bit safe. I could do or say what I wanted and no one was any the wiser. Now how ever… 😉
Thepnr says:
I love this site, it makes me smile 🙂
Let’s face it Thepnr when ever you come on here you never know what on earth you’re going to find out. Mind you after today’s events, I don’t think any other day will quite be the same again! 😉
Just as a wee aside, Stu would it be possible for you to forward my e-mail address to goldenayr or would I be better putting up here?
@ goldenayr – I’ve been invited to Bath for a special tour of Camp bell towers, will post details of its panic room when I return.
If you are really into the semantics men are humans and are divided into wapmen (weapon men) and women (womb men), children are sub-humans. Then wapmen got to feel superior and decided that theirs were the only views that counted as human so they dropped the wap as they were the humans.
Language is a living thing so if you want to put wapmen back in their proper place just use the proper term.
Arbroath says,
” I was kinda nervous about admitting who I actually was.”
You’re Arbroath. We already know that. 🙂
I wouldn’t post your email addy.
Arbroath 1320
Add a 2 at the end of my name on a gmail address,don’t use that one for much so can close it if need be,and then I’ll give you the right one.
Paula Rose
And a man of the cloth as well..ooer missus!
I don’t really want to post my address Juteman but I’m not sure how else to contact goldenayr who apparently for their troubles and crimes appears to live in close proximity to me. Poor dear 😉
I wouldn’t post your email addy.
I wouldn’t either.
handclapping
Yeah,but Scotland and many other cultures were Maternal lineage,and in some respects still is,until the bully boys started to mess it up.
Thanks for the tip goldenayr, I’ve sent a test e-mail through. Either you will receive it ot it will end up at SPT headquarters. 😉
Arbroath 1320
“Crimes”?
None yet apart from my paranoia and poor grammar.
goldenayr says:
Arbroath 1320
“Crimes”?
None yet apart from my paranoia and poor grammar.
Well if you’ve not committed any crimes then you sure have upset someone to end up near me. Mind you we still have to confirm that yet so you might yet be safe. 😛
Arbroath 1320
Got it and replied.Do you not mean GCHQ..feckers are everywhere..;-]
Aye that’s the place goldenayr. They get into everything these days. 😛
Shh Thepnr – we have a lovely romance happening on a magical mystery tour, let us leave them to declare their undying devotion in peace – head to off-topic.
Behave yourself Paula 😛
@Morag,
Superb post! This most of all…..
‘The other day I had a run-in with Duncan Hotdogstall because he labelled Derek Bateman “misogynistic” for including a couple of pictures of belly-dancers on a blog piece likening BT to a stripper. He set himself – a man – up as some sort of self-appointed guardian of women’s rights or feelings or something like that.’
There are few things more likely to raise my feminist hackles than a man setting himself up as the voice of women as if we’re all too busy simpering beneath our bonnets to stand up for ourselves.
Hotdogstall – it does seem as if he has a wee problem.
Not so sure that it is a “wee” problem that he has Paula more like a stonking huge one! 😉
Not so long ago it was homosexuality that ordinary joes didn’t know how to deal with. That’s gone to a large extent now, but I still see it in the older generation, indeed in people not much older than myself. I suspect the change may be a permanent thing now, and social historians will compare the time of Oscar Wilde to the present day and marvel at the speed.
Unconcerned acceptance of transsexuality will probably come along too and maybe quite soon, but we’re not there yet. Perfectly normal people still feel awkward and don’t know how to handle it. Fine if you meet someone after their reassignment, but difficult if you already “know” the person as their original sex. It’s no transphobia, it’s simply not having the experience or instincts to process it.
I go to SF cons a lot, and there are usually some obviously trans people around. Female-to-male, who the hell knows because they are usually undetectable with clothes on. Male-to-female though, are sometimes kenspeckle let’s say. Six feet six with hands like a stevedore and the neck of a docker. And they wear far more feminine clothes than the women do. And sometimes you wonder, is that person actually a trans woman or are they just cross-dressing for the hell of it? And if they say the latter, would that be actually true?
I think in another 50 years or so this conversation will probably seem quite quaint. But at the moment people do feel awkward, particularly with male-to-female transsexuals who aren’t really very convincing. We will get over it, as a society. But right now we can be patient with semantic difficulties.
And we can tell concern trolls who want to smear Wings exactly where they can put their fake concern.
Honey – the laddie cannae pee right so he’s bound to be a wee bit grumpy.
sorry I meant ‘see right’
Arbroath 1320 – Huge, massive grins heading your way, and massive respect 😉
I’m a gay bloke, out as can be, living in Edinburgh with my partner, raised by a very supportive family … I can happily say that I am PROUD of the open minded, fair folk here on Wings and their live and let live, supportive attitude. Transphobic? Like fuck it is.
Brilliant 😉
If we concentrated more on what’s between other folks’ ears than between their legs we’d be a sight better off.
Ian darling we have no interest in what is between legs.
Ian Brotherhood
Aye,thats always been my problem.Trying to have a serious discussion with women,while they drool over my crotch.
Or am I still dreaming?
You know, Arb (and you’ll always be a sister to me….) I wish you’d come out with this about ten days ago. We had James Mack spewing poison about Wings in much the same terms.
link to twitter.com
Wings is a bigot! Every time folk link to him it says Yes isn’t for LGBT people in particular.
But anyone promoting him should know they are widely seen as saying “Scotland isn’t for you” to LGBT people.
If someone’s more hateful to trans people than the Daily Mail are that doesn’t make you think?
This is a properly co-ordinated smear campaign and the more people who speak out against it the better.
I think in another 50 years or so this conversation will probably seem quite quaint. But at the moment people do feel awkward, particularly with male-to-female transsexuals who aren’t really very convincing. We will get over it, as a society. But right now we can be patient with semantic difficulties.
I think you right here Morag.
Unfortunately for most trans people it is extremely difficult to move forward in their new lifestyle. Unless you have a very accepting family or circle of close understanding friends then you will, unfortunately, see the sort of trans person you refer to. This is not necessarily their fault but without the support of family and friends it is extremely difficult, if not impossible in some cases, to progress with their lives without sticking out like a sore thumb and becoming the local laughing stock.
I think, even though the whole acceptance of trans people has moved on in leaps and bounds, there are still huge mountains for trans people to overcome. The biggest one is the initial “coming out” to family and friends. The great unknown is biggest fear everyone has and unfortunately in most cases it does not turn out in a good way. If only family and friends would at least make the effort to try and understand and if not accepting, I know how hard that can bed, but at least tolerate the situation then at least a major step forward will have been taken and there will less chance of the likes of this happening. Six feet six with hands like a stevedore and the neck of a docker. And they wear far more feminine clothes than the women do.
Now lets get serious here – boys are not allowed to be faeries and although they were angelic, that is no longer the cultural norm. So as only us girls are allowed wings – the boys will have to ask permission, including the Rev. Correct?
Morag, some people talk utter rubbish. How many more times do I have to scream out that I’m gay and I feel perfectly at home here? Should I take out a few billboards?
Put me on twitter speed dial. Anytime people try to accuse the Rev or Wings of being homophobic, I’ll happily put them right.
Ok, some context. I came out at 17 years old (some considerable time ago). I ran the GaySoc at Strathclyde University for two years, I am completely out. My boss, my workmates, my family, my partner (obviously), his family, our friends, my neighbours, the postman … everyone knows I’m gay. I talk openly about my life, my partner, my wedding plans. I’m confident and happy in my own skin.
In short, if the Rev or this site was homophobic, I would have had previous about it.
Morag says:
You know, Arb (and you’ll always be a sister to me….) I wish you’d come out with this about ten days ago. We had James Mack spewing poison about Wings in much the same terms.
1,000 apologies I didn’t do this sooner. Thing is though it is not really the sort of topic you can just casually chuck into the middle of one of Stu’s threads. Now come on now be honest. 😉
On the up side at least I’ve now ‘outed’ myself as the Wings pet Trans person any time there is a repeat, of which there will be I have no doubts, then at least everyone can now tell them where to go cause they all have their own pet ‘trans’ and they are all proud of her as she is of them. 🙂
Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:
Arbroath 1320 – Huge, massive grins heading your way, and massive respect 😉
I’m a gay bloke, out as can be, living in Edinburgh with my partner, raised by a very supportive family … I can happily say that I am PROUD of the open minded, fair folk here on Wings and their live and let live, supportive attitude. Transphobic? Like fuck it is.
Brilliant 😉
Many, many thanks for the hugs Gavin many many more sent by return. 😉
Fortunately you are one of the lucky ones, your family being very supportive of you. I on the other hand had a very much less supportive family, specifically mother and father, Hey that’s a story for another day though. Tonight we’re celebrating. 🙂
If there are any trolls still lingering and wondering what we’re celebrating then it’s this.
Wings is NOT, NEVER has been, NOR will it ever be transphobic. If any proof were required of this simple FACT then it is this…I’m still here and I’m still posting tonight as I will be in the future. If I thought for one seconbd this site, Stu or anyone else were transphobic then be assured I WOULD let fly!
Gosh – am I the only straight lady in this village?
Paula Rose says:
Gosh – am I the only straight lady in this village?
Careful there Paula we don’t want this to get out now do we, otherwise we’d have the trolls back claiming Wings and co were hetrosexualphobic! 😛
Arbroath 1320
That’s the thing I can’t get my head round.Parents,who are supposed to love unconditionally,rejecting their children..WTF?
Society is myriad,I even gave a lengthy prognosis of why bullying is good to an anti-bullying practitioner in the MoD once.It went along the lines that bullying is used to keep society in check and this can be used to evolve current thinking into new and socially accepted norms.I even used the MoDs own stance on homosexuality to back up my argument.To say he left perturbed would be an understatement,he changed jobs the next week.
You leave a thread for a while and look what happens! Never a dull moment on Wings. If you can excuse the cliché “we’re a’ Jock Tamson’s Bairns”.
Oh that Jock Tamson – lovely chat up lines.
Aye I find that kind of funny goldenayr. As you say, parents are supposed to love unconditionally. I guess my parents were skipping school the day that particular lesson was being taught then. 😛
@Arbroath1320 – I have read and admired your posts on wings for some time now, it never occurred to me to wonder of personal circumstances I just see a good person who is intelligent, witty and doesn’t take any shit. Now however you have grown a hundred times in my estimation for being brave enough to share your personal story on a public forum.
Yeah, Jock Tamson. Translate that into English and work it out…
We will live in country that cares for its bairns – my lovely neighbour and her two bairns made some lovely pies for my partner and I, the future beckons.
Gavin Barrie
Your last post is a complete antithesis of what Adam and Quentins problem is.They don’t appear to be happy and are blaming everyone else for their difficulties[I was going to say condition,but that could be misconstrued.Then I was going to say state,but that had similar connotations.Sheesh guys..stop giving me a minefield to walk through and I’ll just say that if they misinterpret..tough]
I’m sorry to hear you had such a bad experience of rejection, Arb. I think something like that challenges parents’ own perceptions of who they themselves are, and that’s never good.
Still, that was surely a long time ago now, and you know we’ll always love you!
Croompenstein says:
@Arbroath1320 – I have read and admired your posts on wings for some time now, it never occurred to me to wonder of personal circumstances I just see a good person who is intelligent, witty and doesn’t take any shit. Now however you have grown a hundred times in my estimation for being brave enough to share your personal story on a public forum.
Oh my golly gosh Croompenstein thank hyou so very much mind you if you carry on like this you’ll start the water works again. 😛
You’ll have to be a wee bit careful with all this intelligent and witty stuff though. If I read much more of this tonight I think my head will explode, even though I’ve only got the one brain cell. Just as well I only have the one brain cell I think if I had a full brain my head would exploded long ago. 🙂
Let me share a wee story. My partner Andy and me cuddle and hold hands as most other couples do. We act and behave within the immediate and extended family the same as everyone else, and no one gives two hoots … although I can’t remember ever being very overt in front of our young nieces and nephews, we certainly don’t hide anything.
A few years ago, my elder sisters first Born daughter, who was 5 years old had the following conversation with her mother, completely out of the blue one evening.
“Mum, do Uncle Gavin and Uncle Andy kiss the way that you and Daddy do, when you are Happy?”
“Yes, they do, they’re just like Mummy and Daddy, although they happen to be two men”
“I think that’s nice. Everyone should have someone to love and be happy like that with”
That was that. She had already thought through and figured out homosexuality, she was just confirming a few thoughts with a loved Mother she trusted who knew she could ask these things of.
I ask you, is that not wonderful? Whether the couple in question be gay, straight, transgendered, cross-religious, multi-ethnic … Is that not the loving, open minded acceptance we should want for everyone and that from a 5 year old. I love my family 🙂
Arbroath 1320
Love isn’t learned,it’s earned.And I think you’ve earned a few today.
Arb: gaun yersel, hen 🙂
Morag says:
I’m sorry to hear you had such a bad experience of rejection, Arb. I think something like that challenges parents’ own perceptions of who they themselves are, and that’s never good.
Still, that was surely a long time ago now, and you know we’ll always love you!
Many thanks for your kind word Morag. I can’t tell you the agnonising I went through about coming out tonight but in the end I decided it was for the best not necessarily for me but for Stu and everyone else who posts on here. No one on this site deserves to be labelled as something they clearly are not.
Thank you for your love and I’d like to reciprocate in kind. I can’t tell you how relieved I was to read the posts tonight, I fell so humbled.
That’s it – waterworks on and will now sign off for a few days.
Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:
I ask you, is that not wonderful? Whether the couple in question be gay, straight, transgendered, cross-religious, multi-ethnic … Is that not the loving, open minded acceptance we should want for everyone and that from a 5 year old. I love my family 🙂
I think your 5 year old niece just goes to prove the truth of the old adage Gavin, “out of the mouth’s of babes…” Brilliant! 🙂
goldenayr says:
Arbroath 1320
Love isn’t learned,it’s earned.And I think you’ve earned a few today.
Many thanks for that goldenayr. I’m not sure what I was expecting but the unconditional love shown to not just me tonight has blown me away. 😛
Goldenayr – I think I understand your inference, for want of better language, I’d just call it their innate gender preference. Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying growing up gay was all plain sailing, but with many things in life, you can make a choice whether to let it rule you, or whether you rise above it. Many things are difficult to overcome; tonight is not the time and place to list the curve balls life has thrown at me, but you can choose to let it beat you, or you can turn your chin, get all the help you can and beat things. I’m sure many people reading this have faced and beaten their own challenges.
One crucial difference, let go of the self pity. Let go of the blame. Let go of the finger pointing. You are only holding yourself back. You name a couple of people that I don’t think have managed that.
WOW!
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
Arb: gaun yersel, hen 🙂
Now I KNOW the water works are getting close to overflowing.
Thanks Stu.
1,000 apologies once again for unintentionally taking over this particular thread tonight. It wasn’t planned…HONEST! 😉
Arbroath 1320 – you have well and truly made this day worth living.
Better Together St Kilda says:
Arbroath 1320 – you have well and truly made this day worth living.
Thanks very much for that BTSK.
I do try…SOMETIMES. Mind you others might say I try all right in fact I’m VERY trying! 😛
And you haven’t hijacked the thread, it was already well and truly hijacked by a couple of concern trolls and you got it back on track.
you too jammach
Morag says:
And you haven’t hijacked the thread, it was already well and truly hijacked by a couple of concern trolls and you got it back on track.
Phew, thank goodness for that. Thanks for the confirmation Morag. 😉
Personally, I can’t take the cacophony in transponder films, Arbroath. No disrespect. (More power to your versatility!)
Is there any other site as inclusive and loving as this one?
Grouse Beater says:
Personally, I can’t take the cacophony in transponder films, Arbroath. No disrespect. (More power to your versatility!)
No offence taken Grouse but do you mind if I take the gate instead? 😉
Better Together St Kilda says:
Is there any other site as inclusive and loving as this one?
Well I have heard about a rather obscure wee site BTSK. I don’t know, maybe you’ve heard of it as well. It’s called Wings Over Scotland. Oh wait a minute that’s THIS site isn’t it. 😉
Come and visit us –
link to facebook.com
And you know what’s so weird. It’s Stu’s personality that has made this site what it is, as opposed to what the personalities of the nameless and faceless people who run NNS have made that.
Pretty good for a homophobic, misogynistic transphobic xenophobic bitter hater, you have to hand it to him.
Morag – men of the cloth carry a burden.
Morag – and especially so as a lot of the WOS clan have probably neither seen nor met Stu.
Just think Morag, he achieved all this, all of this without even trying. Can you imagine what he could have achieved had he actually tried? 😛
a homophobic, misogynistic transphobic xenophobic bitter hater
Is that some kind of new-fangled electronic instrument?
Right!
I’m getting hacked off.Just spent ages composing a reply to Gary and it’s disappeared again!
Why do posts of more than one paragraph go missing?
@ TJenny – he’s the only winger with a dog collar.
Given that WOS is a Cybernat hotbed, but only 1% (or less) of readers actually comment, what does that tell us about the profile of the typical ‘Cybernat’? Who exactly is it that gets Darling, Hothersall, Cochers and the Daily Mail all afroth?
Who are these nationalistic maniacs? If they’re not right here, where are they?
(If you are here, please speak up, eh?)
Sorree..not Gary,Gavin.It’s your surname that does it.
I support same-sex marriage. I believe they have the right to be as miserable as the rest of us.
TJenny, I suppose you’re right. It can only be a minority of us who met him in September, or indeed any other time. However, people’s personalities come over pretty well on the internet I find. Would you invite James Mack in for a coffee, even if he was wearing a Yes badge?
Arb, I think Stu is trying so hard, the rest of us should be deeply ashamed of ourselves.
@BTSK – men of the cloth carry a burden
Also men touching cloth carry a burden, just ask Bliar and Flipper 🙂
Grouse Beater says:
a homophobic, misogynistic transphobic xenophobic bitter hater
Is that some kind of new-fangled electronic instrument?
More importantly Grouse can it be quantified and packaged up so it can be sent FREEPOST to everyone’s favourite UKIP leader Nigel Farage? 😛
Goldenayr, have you read the commenting rules?
If you don’t put TWO hard returns between paragraphs in longer posts, they are liable to be deleted. I do think Stu might mention it when he does this, but he has said it so often I think he’s tired of it.
Any “wall of text” that might put off undecided readers from reading further will probably end up in the great bit-bucket in the sky.
Sometimes I think that when God created man he overestimated his ability,
Oscar Wilde.