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Wings Over Scotland


Clearing the smoke

Posted on August 16, 2020 by

There’s been a lot of talk in the last couple of weeks about the SNP NEC, the rather secretive body that controls the operation of the party (and therefore also in effect the Scottish Government).

Extraordinarily, even if you’re a party member there’s no way to access a full list of the 42-member committee – something which for pretty obvious reasons of basic political transparency and accountability ought to be recorded prominently on the SNP website, let alone available to rank-and-file members.

(Ordinary party members aren’t even permitted to see the minutes of NEC meetings, which are restricted to NEC members.)

So we got our investigating hats on.

Below is what we believe to be a full and accurate list of the current SNP NEC. If we’ve made any errors, please let us know and we’ll correct them.

The names highlighted in red are those who have so far announced their intentions to stand as candidates in next year’s Holyrood election, after the NEC voted to effectively block Westminster MPs from seeking nomination. We suspect several more will follow.

SNP members: this is what you’re not supposed to know about your own party.

OFFICE HOLDERS

President: Ian Hudghton
Leader: Nicola Sturgeon MSP
Depute Leader: Keith Brown MSP
National Treasurer: Colin Beattie MSP
National Secretary: Dr Angus MacLeod
Business Convener: Kirsten Oswald MP
Organisation Convener: Stacy Bradley
Local Government Convener: Cllr Ellen Forson
Women’s Convener: Cllr Rhiannon Spear
Equalities Convener: Fiona Robertson
Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic Convener: Cllr Graham Campbell
Disabled Members’ Convener: Morag Fulton
Member Support Convener: Douglas Daniel
Policy Development Convener: Alyn Smith MP

OTHER MEMBERS

Tommy Sheppard MP (House of Commons parliamentary group)
Alison Thewliss MP (House of Commons parliamentary group)
Cllr Lynne Anderson (Central Scotland Regional Association)
Cllr Cameron McManus (Central Scotland Regional Association)
Cllr Christina Cannon (Glasgow Regional Association)
Alex Kerr (Glasgow Regional Association)
Munro Ross (Highlands and Islands Regional Association)
Laura Mitchell (Highlands and Islands Regional Association)
Roz Currie (Lothian Regional Association)
Andrew Diack (Lothian Regional Association)
Rhuaraidh Fleming (Mid Scotland and Fife Regional Association)
Mireille Pouget (Mid Scotland and Fife Regional Association)
Christian Allard (North East Scotland Regional Association)
Dorothy Jessiman (North East Scotland Regional Association)
Cllr Heather Anderson (South Scotland Regional Association)
Cllr Rob Davidson (South Scotland Regional Association)
Emma Hendrie (West Scotland Regional Association)
Robert Innes (West Scotland Regional Association)
*Ruth Maguire MSP (Scottish Parliament parliamentary group)
Chris Law MP (House of Commons parliamentary group)
Baillie Norman MacLeod (Association of Nationalist Councillors)
Greg McCarra (SNP Trade Union group)
Jamie Szymkowiak (Disabled Members group)
Cailyn McMahon (Young Scots for Independence)
Kaukab Stewart (BAME Network)
Abdul Majid (Scots Asians for Independence)
Julia Stachurska (SNP Students)
Josh Mennie (Out for Independence)

* not NEC member at time of recent controversial meeting

In the course of researching this post, incidentally, we also spoke to an NEC source who gave us some background information that we thought party members and other readers might be interested in. We pass it on here without comment.

“Off the back of Joanna Cherry’s triumph against Boris Johnson in court, she had to be vetted again to stand as a candidate in the 2019 UK election. A formality you would assume… but no, despite being recommended for approval by the committee responsible for that, it came to the NEC to be ratified and she was individually put to a vote to determine whether she should be approved as an SNP candidate or not.

Joanna – who had a constituency event – asked to dial into the meeting only to have her request denied as the party of government didn’t have the capability to allow that.

This was the most famous MP in the whole UK at that point, fresh from defeating the UK government, and it was going to a vote on whether she was suitable to be an SNP candidate at the election. Worse still, a majority of the NEC – a very tight majority – voted against her being accepted as a candidate.

Smiles were visible, some even couldn’t contain themselves from fist bumping that they had, for a variety of reasons, managed to block the most capable MP in Scotland from standing in the election.

There was just one problem though – just like the recent debacle over James Dornan and the blocking of Cherry from standing in next year’s Holyrood election, those smiling didn’t know the constitution.

If you want to overturn the recommendation that someone be an approved candidate, you need not a simple majority but a 2/3 majority of the entire NEC, whether they were in attendance or not (at that time including Joanna herself).

Thankfully someone that DID know the party constitution was at the meeting to point that out – much to the jaw-dropping pale-faced sadness of those that had gleefully voted to rid the SNP of one of its most talented operators.

For those that try to suggest that the recent Edinburgh Central stitch up had nothing to do blocking Joanna Cherry, I thought the above was worth knowing.”

[EDIT 4.20pm: removed an image of a well-known quote which is usually attributed to Voltaire, but which we correctly attributed to someone else, but who we hadn’t noticed was a rather unsavoury character. We’re not the first to trip over it.]

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    1. 16 08 20 16:04

      Wings Over Scotland | Clearing the smoke | The New York Press News Agency

    2. 16 08 20 16:57

      Clearing the smoke | speymouth

    3. 17 08 20 11:58

      The hole that keeps getting deeper | Grumpy Scottish Man

    276 to “Clearing the smoke”

    1. Andy Ellis says:

      Fish begins to stink at the head, not the tail.

    2. Astonished says:

      They have either to start fighting ( and expelling) the woke faction. Or else we will have no option but to blame all the NEC.

      ” Fly wi’ craws….”

      And for those MSPs and MPs who think fence sitting is an option. It isn’t.

      I predict a SNP bloodbath or a labour government in Holyrood 2021.

    3. Bob Mack says:

      Wrong people in the wrong place at the right time.

      Clear them out.

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I predict a SNP bloodbath or a labour government in Holyrood 2021.”

      I am happy to accept a bet on the latter for any figure up to and including a billion pounds.

    5. winifred mccartney says:

      Am I wrong in believing Cllr Rhiannon Spear is one of the leaders of the GRA legislation.

    6. Bob W says:

      It would be very interesting to know who in that meeting voted to oust Joanna Cherry as an SNP candidate.

    7. Tannadice Boy says:

      Stu

      Another excellent post. I didn’t realise the extent of the rot. And let’s face it most of SNPs real talent and experience is trapped in Westminster. The Indy movement has been hijacked. Despite this I am having a great weekend after our glorious victory yesterday.

    8. Dan Watt says:

      Thanks for ruining another Sunday Rev. No seriously, I appreciate all the work you do and am just worried where and how is this gonna leave us. The party will rip itself apart and lose all support long before we achieve independence at this rate. There needs to be a massive fucking clear out from top to bottom. No more wokery!

    9. Astonished says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      16 August, 2020 at 3:37 pm
      “I predict a SNP bloodbath or a labour government in Holyrood 2021.”

      I am happy to accept a bet on the latter for any figure up to and including a billion pounds.

      I accept I am no mystic mogg

    10. Helen Yates says:

      Behave like Labour and you’ll be treated like Labour at the next election, the arrogance from within this party is mind-blowing, I can’t wait to see the smugness wiped from their faces, talk about rogues in a nation.

    11. kapelmeister says:

      There are 2 SNPs.

      1.Scottish National Party (SNP)

      and

      2.Stop Nationalism Prevailing (SNP)

      Cherry leads 1 & Sturgeon leads 2.

    12. Helen Yates says:

      “I predict a SNP bloodbath or a labour government in Holyrood 2021.”
      The way things are going there’s more chance of a Tory government in 2021.

    13. kapelmeister says:

      Who was chairing that meeting and why did they not know the rules?

    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Am I wrong in believing Cllr Rhiannon Spear is one of the leaders of the GRA legislation.”

      She’s certainly one of its main advocates.

    15. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone know for sure how many wokesters are on those lists?

    16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Who was chairing that meeting and why did they not know the rules?”

      Same reason they didn’t know the rules about James Dornan, I guess.

    17. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      There has to be urgent change within the SNP, if they don’t win independence for us next year we will not see it for a long time.

      If they don’t win independence then I think a new party has to be considered the SNP is turning into Scottish Labour.

      I wonder how many members they have lost in the past month. Is there any concern or realisation at the top of the party that folk are not just unhappy but are leaving.

    18. Douglas says:

      Horrific
      Must be sorted

      This cannot be hidden

      We can either do it now or when the British detonate this mid election/mid Referendum

      Clear out needed

      Alex, we’d like you to star in a remake of ‘Valdez is coming’

    19. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Anyone know for sure how many wokesters are on those lists?”

      Definite wokies:

      Angus MacLeod
      Kirsten Oswald
      Rhiannon Spear
      Fiona Robertson
      Graham Campbell
      Morag Fulton
      Doug Daniel
      Alyn Smith
      Alison Thewliss
      Alex Kerr
      Christian Allard
      Emma Hendrie
      Jamie Szymkowiak
      Cailyn McMahon
      Julia Stachurska
      Josh Mennie

    20. Denise says:

      I would bet on an Labour FM next year. I’m not saying it’s an odds on bet it an outsider bet but I think it’s possible.

      I reckon Labour will exhume someone and the will replace Leonard.
      I think Dougie Alexander or maybe Alistair Darling will announce they are standing for Holyrood.
      The Tories will use GRA and Hate Crime as emotive issues to turn people against the SNP
      The opposition and msm will hammer SNP for the economic problems Scotland will have
      SNP activists are divided and angry – no real hope of an indyref and loads of unpleasant woke candidates- so problems on the ground
      The SNP have no cash.
      Tories in particular plenty of dodgy cash

      SNP are a minority with Greens not numerous enough to prop them up.

      Dougie or Alistair or A.N Other Labour Leader is proposed as FM
      (Labour can’t vote for a Tory FM, but Tories could vote for Labour)
      Unionist unite …..

      Labour FM

      What odds would you give

    21. AndSpouse says:

      Stu , have I interpreted this correctly? Is the suggestion that the Wokerati were the “simple majority” at the meeting? If that’s correct then my question would be, where were the rest of the good and just? Why did they not attend? Maybe all members should attend in future and this would prevent this simple majority from having a free run at the rules and direction. Perhaps they would simply disappear?
      Tony Benn Rule 5, why would we not motion at congress for the NEC to be public? Are there good reasons for keeping things hush hush? Like really?
      Stu, It’s very sad reading, it’s infiltration. I want to be on the SNP Bus to independence but Lordy Lordy this is hard.

    22. Denise says:

      Keith Brown is also a wokestr

    23. kapelmeister says:

      Funny how woke people do a lot of dozing.

      Bulldozing.

    24. Anon says:

      Ellen Forson is going for Stirling too.

    25. Beaker says:

      I was gobsmacked by this phrase:

      “Joanna – who had a constituency event – asked to dial into the meeting only to have her request denied as the party of government didn’t have the capability to allow that.”

      That has got to be the worst excuse I have ever seen. I’ll put money on them having the capability for conference calls. FFS the could have set up MS Teams meeting. You don’t even need a laptop, a fucking mobile will handle it on 4G fairly easy.

      If members of the NEC do not even know the constitution of the party they should not be in the bloody NEC.

      The NEC really needs a professional administrator in there to sort things out. They need to check that procedures are properly defined and that there are solid work instructions for all of these. If the people in the NEC can’t operate their own party then they will fuck up if elected to office and have a key role in government.

    26. Capella says:

      Kirsten Oswald chaired the meeting and Angus McLeod, the secretary, will know the constitution. The chair of any meeting is the person who should govern the meeting and uphold the rules.

      The delegates at conference voted for many of the people on the NEC, including the secretary. They can be unvoted for in theory. Don’t know how the reps of regional orgs were elected. Possibly by constituency or branch elections.

      Ironically, Alyn Smith has publicly called for reform of the NEC.

      For those advocating a Labour or Tory victory at Holyrood, perhaps you need to examine how their ruling body is constituted and how their candidates are selected before committing yourselves.

    27. robertknight says:

      In the words of Bette Midler in the Simpsons episode…

      “It’s time to take out the trash”

      In reading the NEC list, one name appears from my days in my (then) local branch. The individual concerned was as sharp as a beach ball back then (shaped like one too) – I doubt anything much has changed.

    28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I would bet on an Labour FM next year.”

      I’ll give you 10/1, name your stake 😀

    29. Gerar McGhee says:

      What kind of Kafkaesque nightmare is this. We seem to have created a Frankenstein’s monster of a party which turns on it creators. Who will be our cavalry to rescue Scotland from this gothic horror of Tory Kleptoracy,GRA,hate bill and Covid.

    30. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Is the suggestion that the Wokerati were the “simple majority” at the meeting? If that’s correct then my question would be, where were the rest of the good and just? Why did they not attend?”

      It was a majority of those present, I gather. That doesn’t NECESSARILY mean anyone didn’t attend (except Joanna Cherry).

    31. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Ellen Forson is going for Stirling too.”

      Interestingly all I can find on that is this reply to a deleted tweet:

      https://twitter.com/BillDunblane/status/1289138201957998593

    32. Oneliner says:

      What Tony Benn missed:

      How much land do you own?

      Funny, that.

    33. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Keith Brown is also a wokestr”

      Evidence?

    34. cynicalHighlander says:

      Rotten to the core

    35. Breastplate says:

      Joanna Cherry’s candidacy should have been unanimous.

      Cockroaches like to work in the dark and it’s about time the SNP had the exterminators in.

    36. Denise says:

      Christina Cannon – woke
      Cameron McMannus – woke
      Roz Currie woke
      Robert Innes Woke
      Emma Hendrie – woke
      Kailab Stewart – signed ofi pledge so probably woke

    37. jfngw says:

      @Denise

      Maybe Dougie and Wendy can return as the new Alexander Brothers, and I don’t want any transphobic comments, nobody complained about the Scissor Sisters.

      Can’t see Darling swaying anyone, the man that dragged Scotland into this mess with his No campaign profile. I know Labour think they can pick up the accolades of not being in power here or in the English parliament but we do have Wales to see their poor performance.

    38. Denise says:

      Ok re Labour FM not I am not saying I think this will happen I just think it is possible. So I bet you 5 pounds.

    39. Dan Watt says:

      We now URGENTLY need to think about what the Yes movement looks like without the SNP and how we get another referendum without having a party that supports independence being in power in Holyrood.

    40. Tannadice Boy says:

      Surely the NEC follows normal committee procedure. A quorum needs to be formed. Usually 2/3 of the committee need to be in attendance. Although I confess I do not know the constitution of this particular committee. Nothing would surprise me but I stand by my previous comment some time ago. The real power is with the Murrells. Nothing happens without their say so.

    41. kapelmeister says:

      Ellen Forson, I think, was an aide of Keith Brown a while ago.

    42. Denise says:

      Regarding Keith Brown I spoke to him about women’s pledge and he was definitely woke. The others were all part of the ofi slate last October.

    43. jfngw says:

      Don’t know if many came across this link on twitter regarding sexualisation of children in the late sixties (in Germany), it has huge parallels to what is happening now with the wokeists.

      https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-sexual-revolution-and-children-how-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679.html

    44. Socrates MacSporran says:

      How it works – the Scottish High Command.

      Messenger from the Front: Sur, Sur, we’re winnin’.

      High Command: Oh Fuck; we’d better dae something, hoo can we lose frae here?

    45. Ian McCubbin says:

      This is no surprise seen in trade unions when a dangerous power group gets hold of the decision making.
      TBH there is no chance of Independence happening until the rot at the top is expelled.

    46. Andy Ellis says:

      @Rev Stu

      Not that I have even a scintilla of hope left that the party can be saved from itself vis-à-vis the woke contagion, it strikes me that the fact almost half are definite woke extremists should give mainstream members considerable pause for thought.

      The NEC is of course far too unwieldy, with far too many members, over-representation for regional branches and multiple “interest group” portfolios which should be dealt with by sub-committees. Interesting that only certain groups are deemed worthy of representation: so we have BAME, Students, Disabled, Young, “Out for Indy”, Trades Unionists and possibly Asians…but no Pensioners, EU Nationals, Scottish NHS Workers.

      Do they really need 4 Convenors as Office Holders representing Women, Equalities, BAME, and Disabled? What on earth does a Member Support convenor do…..and more particularly why does he need to be on the NEC? Same goes for Policy Development…..why does that need representation on the NEC?

      The party leadership patently has no clue what it is doing, as the disastrous handling of recent high profile cases like Dornan’s and #Cherrygate has amply demonstrated. The woke infiltration is bad enough in itself, but the amateurishness and lack of organisation is almost worse. What a bourach.

    47. Patsy Millar says:

      Thanks once again for doing research. The SNP NEC (now there’s a mouthful) are making it exceedingly difficult for members like me. I was a member years ago but was somewhat disillusioned by backroom ‘politics’ and resigned. I didn’t rejoin till the night of the 2016(?) GE and did so in a fit of euphoria to bring the local membership number up to 100. Have had many uncomfortable days since!

    48. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “In reading the NEC list, one name appears from my days in my (then) local branch. The individual concerned was as sharp as a beach ball back then (shaped like one too) – I doubt anything much has changed.”

      Spill! 😀

    49. Shug says:

      Are the alphabet group in this motley crew

    50. Ian Foulds says:

      MAJOR clear out required.

      SNP members need to get a grip of a situation that appears to have been taken out of their control.

    51. Bob Costello says:

      This is truly disgusting and at the head of it is Nicola Sturgeon

    52. Rita says:

      In reply to me Tommy Sheppard has said he supports self-id.

    53. kapelmeister says:

      It’s of course two problems for the party. The woke infiltration on one hand. And on the other, the comfortably salaried politicians, spads and party officials who would much prefer not to vigorously pursue independence.

      There is crossover between the two groups, and Sturgeon belongs to both.

    54. Steve says:

      JC has been treated appallingly but it’s naive to treat her like some kind of saviour. She’s a politician!

      NS is a supremely talented and exceptionally popular politician who was chapping the doors when the SNP only had two MPs. That experience brings more patience than some on here are comfortable with.

      JC came to prominence at the same time as all the wokeists many on here have a problem with.

      For sure, electoral success means an increase in overly comfortable politicians and hangers on. More scrutiny and better party democracy is needed. But let’s keep a sense of perspective- not everything in politics needs to be seen through the prism of the GRA.

    55. defo says:

      Busy working, but will convert the data given above into good guy/wank format laters.

      Fine work Stu, a good, informative piece for those of us who’s ears are further from the ground.

    56. Ian Brotherhood says:

      As an example of how ‘accountable’ the wokeists are, even when they’ve reached the lofty heights – Doug Daniel has blocked dozens of Yes supporters who’ve never even contacted him and many don’t even know who he is.

      Check the replies here:

      https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/1294415480799875075

    57. Barry Hughes says:

      The regional reps are voted on by conference delegates of each area; ie Glasgow delegates for for glasgow reps etc

      I wouldnt think Robert Innes is woke – he’s usually arguing against them and has concerns about the party not supporting working class candidates

    58. Tannadice Boy says:

      Perhaps I am wrong but I find if difficult to believe that Keith Brown is a wokester. More likely he is following what he thinks is the general direction of the party. Sacrificing principles for party advantage Except the membership is on a different path. He is a safe pair of hands in general. I don’t believe he believes in wokedom despite signing some ridiculous document.

    59. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tannadice

      Perhaps, but if true I think I’d have even more contempt for moral cowards like him than for the woko haram extremists themselves?

      There’s a reason the aphorism about evil triumphing if good men do nothing is popular…

    60. Scott Fulton says:

      The girlfriend of Gavin Lundy is on that list and she has been very vocal that young people need to stand as SNP group is too old. He’s now standing.

      Is the Emma Hendrie named on the list the same Emma Hendrie that is the partner of Alex Kerr who is highlighted in red?

      Ellen Forson is also standing.

      I’m sure there’s more connections. It’s a total stitch up.

    61. jfngw says:

      @Tannadice Boy

      That was one of the points made the the spiegel article, even the intelligentsia were reluctant to speak out in case they were accused of being non-progressive.

    62. Barry Hughes says:

      the other thing to look at is the vetting committee – this is the one which approves all potential candidates; normally this is made up of people who are not standing for election but this time around the deputy convener (and woke supporter) Councillor Michelle Campbell is not only organising vetting but also intends running as a candidate. apparently she’s going for Derek Mackay’s seat and was already boasting she had it in the bag when she believed her pals in the NEC had tried to make it a BAME only seat. However when that was changed to a woman only seat (despite being against current snp rules) she realised she now has local competition. Still it helps if you know all the answers to all the questions in vetting!

    63. Denise says:

      @Tannadice Boy

      You are probably right. When I spoke to him about women’s pledge And GRA reform he responded with a load of nonsense such as American Far Right funding etc and how it was like section 28. It was clear he was trotting out lines he hadn’t really thought it through

    64. Tannadice Boy says:

      Andy Ellis says

      True but from his perspective he is trying to survive. We have all did that in board situations where you are the one that is uncomfortable with decisions being made. Don’t stick your head above the parapet. He will live to fight another day. And he is definitely Indy.

    65. kapelmeister says:

      Since Alex Salmond would have been Scotland’s prime minister if Yes had won, and since Alex would not have been interested in woke legislation, it seems probable that many of these SNP wokesters did things to sabotage the Yes campaign.

    66. red sunset says:

      Regarding SNP MPs or MSPs who are woke. If you’re determining that from any pledge that they’ve signed. The word comes down from on high as to what pledge or another they have to support. So for the bog standard MP or MSP, they’re not making their own decision.

      Now if you’re determining it from any statements they’ve made, that’s a different matter.

    67. Alan Mackintosh says:

      One of the names above rings a bell. Just before the Indyref everybody was told to make sure that they booked their holidays early for September so they were available.

      Well, someone did book their holidays… and went on a cruise…!

    68. Kenny says:

      The thing is, Joanna Cherry is actually bigger than the SNP.

      She could just leave and form a “Scottish Party for Women and Independence”. Such a party could make serious capital by pushing for indy (list seats) and talking about the protection/cancellation of women (many voters are simply not aware).

      The YES movement would overwhelmingly back it, I am sure. In fact, Nicola Sturgeon should also approve of such a thing, then she can let the SNP be a truly “woke” party (instead of hiding it and pushing things like GRA by stealth).

    69. robertknight says:

      Rev Stu @ 4:12

      “Spill”

      Think Roy Hattersley’s Spitting Image puppet but with a Scottish accent.

      I’ll say no more…?

    70. Andy Ellis says:

      @red sunset

      I’m not sure it’s that simple. At one level I agree we have to judge them on what they actually say and sign up to, but it seems pretty clear that *many* MPs, MSPs, councillors and office holders are happy to hide behind the parapets and try not to commit themselves. You may be right that the less brave ones will simply sign up to the pledges deemed politically correct or “on-message”, but it is often quite difficult to pin them down even if you ask.

      Prior to the GE2019 I attempted to find out the views of the PCP for Edinburgh Central. I suspected she fully supported the woke agenda from reading between the lines and seeing who she interacted with and her twitter history at the time, but it was absolutely impossible to get a straight answer from her: she wanted my vote, but simply refused to be drawn on the issue of self-ID and GRA beyond platitudes about it being an important issue, not suitable for discussion on twitter, which would be fully debated later……after I trusted her with my vote.

      Hmmmmnnnnn…..

    71. Liz g says:

      Jfngw @ 4.36
      And it’s quite an article… a warning from history right enough 🙂

    72. John Brown says:

      Point of accuracy.

      If you are a party member you have access to the full list of NEC members by logging on to the My SNP website, clicking on My Branch and then opening the National Executive Committee tab.

      Perhaps your party sources are not ordinary members and therefore not in the habit of using the website. (Probably quite wisely because it does not give any other information about the NEC or their deliberations.)

    73. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Is the Emma Hendrie named on the list the same Emma Hendrie that is the partner of Alex Kerr who is highlighted in red?”

      Yes.

    74. JOML says:

      I wonder if Dominic Cummings is on the NEC? That would explain a lot!

    75. Malky says:

      [EDIT 4.20pm: removed an image of a well-known quote which is usually attributed to Voltaire, but which we correctly attributed to someone else, but who we hadn’t noticed was a rather unsavoury character. We’re not the first to trip over it.]

      Strange. Why delete a quote you felt to be true?

    76. Robert Louis says:

      This has to be said. This whole mess, has happend on Nicola Sturgeon’s watch. It is a disgrace.

      These people coniving to de-select the SNP’s most able MP since Alex Salmond, have one priority and it isn’t independence. These folk are obsessed with GRA.

      This beggars belief. It really does.

      Either Nicola Sturgeon is complicit, or she is incompetent. Either way, it just is not good enough. Either she needs to get a grip, or move over, so somebody who can, will.

    77. A Person says:

      This is very disturbing indeed, and what’s more so many just don’t care…

      I am particularly interested to see the sheer number of NEC members whose job it is to represent specific social groups. In other words, every one of those people has a vested interest in keeping the party on its “woke” path. (Disclaimer- I am a straight white male so no special representative for me! But then again so is about 47% of the Scottish population, and most of them vote SNP).

      Denise, I don’t regard your prediction as **that** outlandish. Remember there was estimated to be a very low chance of Trump winning for instance. About 1 Scot in 3 loves Queen and Country and would rather poke their eyes out with forks than vote Yes. They will be motivated to vote “to save the Union”. If Cummings decides to go after the SNP on the GRA then, added to the Holyrood voting system, they could manage to scrape a unionist majority. Labour won’t install a Tory FM, but the Tories would install a Labour one. Look at how the Tories threw the kitchen sink at Corbyn.

    78. Andrew says:

      “…Jamie Szymkowiak…”

      I think you’re being unfair, have you not seen the article from the Disabled Group and the stooshie it caused?

      https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/disabled-snp-members-demand-place-22520895.amp

      Jamie is a long time independence supporter, and is the only one taking on Alyn Smith. Alyn Smith and his woke squad are absolute poison within the SNP, and while everyone else is giving him a free pass, and muttering about it, the Disabled Group, with Jamie in charge, are the only ones who sem to be actually taking the fight.

      If anything, if we want rid of the woke squad, we should be supporting Jamie, and actually taking down “daddy” Smith. At the moment, he’s standing up for the group he represents with very little support from anyone.

      We all want the SNP to go back to actually supporting independence, and so far, from this whole farce, who else on the NEC has fought back against “Daddy” Smith and his woke squad? Bit unfair to tag him as a wokester, just for representing his people.

    79. P says:

      Apart from the Murrells, this has got Alan Smith leading his merry band of wokesters all over it.

    80. Ian says:

      Quite an eyeopener on the NEC.

      Meanwhile –

      ‘But the NEC’s authority to make these decisions, which is derived directly from the members who elect them, needs to be respected.’ – The National

      Seems that it’s at the NEC level that the plan begins to be seen. Hard to believe the NEC is simply following the wishes of the members, especially if they don’t even know who is on the NEC or see the NEC minutes. Looks like an obvious plan once a few points are highlighted, such as today’s blog has done. Like most of these kind of things, daylight is their biggest fear. This may be a chance to clear out the subterfuge within the SNP without all hell breaking loose.

      The SNP need to be challenged on their openness and party structures by members & non-members alike. I hope this subject keeps running and exposes more home truths that the SNP would rather keep hidden. Smoke & mirrors at the moment it seems.

    81. Andy Ellis says:

      @Malky

      As Thomas Jefferson once said, “Never trust quotes you find on the internet.”

    82. Graham Ballantyne says:

      That is genuinely shocking AND worrying. It’s clear evidence that there are people in the SNP, some at the top, for whom Scottish independence is secondary to their own agenda. That they should not only seek to prevent one of their most effective parliamentarians from standing for Holyrood, but to actually kick them out of WM is outrageous and should be grounds for expulsion from the party.
      SNP members need to wake up and take a stand against this coterie or the SNP will become a debating society for discussing Scottish independence without ever actually doing anything effective to achieve it. I fear we might not be far away from that situation already.

    83. Black Joan says:

      The Daddy Bear is a special friend of the leadership or he would not have been parachuted in to Stirling so conveniently.

      For that reason, without a major clear out, he will be likely to get his own way.

    84. Tannadice Boy says:

      Black Joan says

      I am deeply troubled by someone calling himself ‘Daddy Bear’. The connotations of that description switches me off. Is he a Dad and/or a Grandad? What life experience in family relationships?. The SNP are meant to be governing for everyone in Scotland. Call me boring if you want but I am on the right side of public opinion. He is nobodies Daddy.

    85. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gender-ideology is a product of the individual’s psychology, which is formed through the interaction of the individual’s biology with the social and natural environments. So denying the legal significance of biology, is a fundamentally flawed proposition that insists humanity is separate from, and above, nature. The proposals also insist the law constrains its view of human judgement to the purely psychological, so they would deny Scots law the benefits of logic and phenomenology.

      Supporting the GRA proposals is an expression of misogynistic social practice, as the amendments are hostile to the interests of biological women, social justice, environmentalism, public health ethics, and sustainable public policy.

      So the position of Women’s Convener needs thoroughly reviewed, IMHO. The party also needs to accommodate a legal respect for the human genome into their constitution. This would do wonders for the party’s approach to women’s rights, and their capacity to protect Scotland’s civic identity from the patriarchal narcissism of contemporary English nationalism.

      estetica 72 | 2019 : Briding traditions. Chinese and Western philosophy in dialogue
      Sexual difference and self-understanding – a comparative perspective on the liberation of bodily conditioned human beings

      Abstract
      In this article I will argue that the feminist theoretical paradigm in approaching the issue of sexual difference should be adjusted. Feminism at present mainly relies on phenomenology of the other and pays much attention to the significant ambiguity of the human body. But I will explain that the phenomenological argument for the sexual asymmetry is invalid.

      All human beings with gender are bodily conditioned. Gender issues must be integrated into the universal human impulse of liberation which is based on a self-understanding. The gendered self is culturally shaped. An intercultural comparative perspective can allow us to obtain a wider horizon to explore the relationship between a person’s sexually conditioned being and his self-understanding.

      In my discussion of gender and self, the contrast between China and the West is exemplary. Despite different self-understandings with regard to sex, the pursuit of freedom can be universally noticed. Notwithstanding the sexually embodied existence, human beings in both the West and East have generally theorized and practiced the spiritualization of self in metaphysics and religions.

      In order to make this point clear I take early Indian Buddhism as an example. My argumentation may seem intercultural and comparative, but fundamentally I am problem-oriented and point to the dimension beyond cultural comparison.

      https://journals.openedition.org/estetica/5956

    86. Breeks says:

      I wonder if certain members of the NEC had any historic Tweets, WhatsApp discussions, and evidence being ‘sat on’ until it was needed to prevent Alex Salmond Joanna Cherry passing selection criteria…

    87. ahundredthidiot says:

      I am glad I left the Party before Christmas, but sad to see the state it has gotten into.

      It’s not quite SLAB, but it is certainly heading in that direction.

    88. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Important comment from Craig Murray on previous thread, for those who may have missed it:

      Craig Murray says:
      16 August, 2020 at 5:23 pm
      With her appearance on tomorrow night’s Kristy Wark hatchet ob on Alex Salmond, I think Nicola is finally overresaching. The Covid popularity has gone to her head.

      The problem is that this circle of identity politics obsessed people are very cut off from ordinary folk. They do not fully understand that on the Salmond case, most people will not buy into the notion that the female “victim” MUST always be believed, even when a huge amount of evidence points in the opposite direction.

      By cooperating with Wark and Garavelli, Sturgeon is trying ahead of the parliamentary inquiry to condition public opinion to accept that she was behind the moves against Alex (wich will shortly be impossible to hide any longer), and by aligning herself with narratives of Alex’ guilt she will seek to survive that revelation.

      I think the miscalculation is that Scottish people have a sense of justice and belief in juries. Most people will feel the jury heard all the evidence and were in the best position to make that call; and will resent the continuing attacks from behind the protection of anonymity when, unlike in court, they are not able to be properly challenged on their fake stories.

      This moment has been some time coming but it is now upon us. How the cat, capella, dr. jim etc react to the certain knowledge Nicola tried to destroy Alex – they have been in desperate denial – is key.

      Perhaps they will then realise she is behind the attacks on Joanna Cherry too.

    89. Republicofscotland says:

      I wonder which NEC members fist pumped when they shot down Scotland’s most competent politician Joanna Cherry?

      Those bastards needs to go and go quickly.

    90. MightyS says:

      Ellen Forson was and possibly still is an SNP councillor for Clacks. She was campaign manager for Tasmina and Keith Brown and I canvassed with her and Keith for the indyref. Lovely lass. No idea about her stance in Self ID.

      Any new candidate that pops his/her head up to announce intentions usually gets the ‘question’. If they answer, that I think is enough to ascertain their intentions. If they don’t, we really can’t speculate until they get past vetting and prepped for election.

    91. Martin G says:

      Has anyone actually asked Alex Salmond his view of GRA Reform as i notice some saying he would be anti-Woke but can anyone prove it? We know Joanna Cherry doesnt agree with GRA reform but what about other woke issues like BLM ? Another friend of Alex is Craig Murray and he is full on Woke and totally in favour of GRA reform.

      I note everyone saying to remove the Wokists but nobody has said how to do it, plus there all all the other wokists not on the NEC so so will just replace like for like. Look at Edinburgh Central with choice of woke Angus Robertson or woke Marco Biagi.

      The only choice in my opinion is for every sensible indy voter to join the new indy party & leave the wokists in the SNP to rot.

      The alternative is for Alex Salmond and his supporters to fight back now to save the party. Reveal everything on all the wokists especially Sturgeon and Murrell as well as the Salmond conspiracy info, put it anonymously on reddit or a similar platform or get an insider whistleblower to go to the newspapers.

      How many complaining here will still vote for Nicola Sturgeon et al next year (if she is still leader)?

      The current SNP is corrupt and need brought to justice. Its no longer about independence but right and wrong

    92. robertknight says:

      Rev Stu @ 4:12

      “Spill”

      Think Roy Hattersley’s Spitting Image puppet, but with a Scottish accent. I’ll say no more 😉

      No wonder they don’t want this in the public domain…

    93. MWS says:

      I actually had to read your article a couple of times. I’m no longer an SNP member but I feel totally heart sick at what has become of the Party i loved, supported and campaigned for for decades.In a moment of weakness and self-doubt last week i did actually think about rejoining. To fight them from the inside. But you know what? I think it’s beyond redemption. Every up and coming candidate seems to be cut from the same cloth. It’s incestuous, it’s shambolic, it’s corrupt, it’s disgraceful. I could cry reading that article Stuart. But I’m bloomin glad you published it.

    94. Ottomanboi says:

      Of the five questions the fifth is the toughest.
      Can we get rid of you by voting you out of office or are we compelled to employ force?
      Even when we might think we’ve got rid of you have you become so entrenched in ‘the system’ that your removal is actually just a smoke and mirrors act?
      In Benn’s day there was no internet or social media or globalist moguls. He’d probably freak out at the rise of the new authority figures playing fast and loose with human freedoms, not to mention the relativization of fact and truth.

    95. Intractable Potsherd says:

      @Rev Stu: I’m surprised you are one of those who care more about who said something rather than whether what was said is useful. It’s a bit close cancel culture for my taste.

    96. Denise says:

      @Red Sunset
      This wasn’t a virtue signaling meaningless pledge.

      OFI ran a slate of candidates last October then people i have said are woke were on that slate.
      OFI openly campaigned for their slate last year publicising their names on their stall (how did they afford that?) and promoting them on social media. They owe their positions on the NEC to OFI

    97. DickieT says:

      Not only is Alyn Smith on the woke list. He is Wokemeister General.

      As regards there being 2 x SNP parties

      1.Scottish National Party (SNP)

      and

      2.Stop Nationalism Prevailing (SNP)

      Cherry leads 1 & Sturgeon, Wishart, Sheppard and Law lead 2.

    98. Effijy says:

      I can’t believe that Dick Leotard could be held as a possible First Minister.
      Lord Charles the ventriloquist dummy was more articulate and less wooden.

    99. Tannadice Boy says:

      MWS says
      Every cloud has a silver lining. The standard of debate today on this thread has been high. Whether you agree with the comments or not. No surprise since Stu cleaned out dysfunctional posters earlier on. I am more optimistic now.

    100. Denise says:

      @Effijy

      Even um not mad enough to think what’s his name is likely to be FM but I expect him to be replaced before May

    101. Andy Ellis says:

      @IanB

      All we can now be certain of is that Nicola is very much part of the problem, not part of the solution. At any given point over the past few years she could have have acted decisively to end this. The fact she has signally failed to do so leads to the inevitable conclusion that she supports those responsible.

      When I left the party over “l’affaire Grouse Beater” it was then (just?) possible to think it was attributable to some bad apples who had somehow managed to gain undue power and influence and use it inappropriately.

      However, it’s difficult for there now to be plausible deniability that she wasn’t and isn’t aware of what’s been going on – it’s much more likely she simply doesn’t think it’s an issue and/or doesn’t care or believe it will have a negative impact.

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      Martin G
      Those supporting the GRA amendments can’t really be considered proper woke, which is awake to social reality, so values robust epistemic integrity. Supporting genderwoowoo is an absolute rejection of epistemic truth, and dereliction of ones epistemic responsibilities.

      What you’re not learning in your Diversity & Inclusion workshops: The Basics
      https://medium.com/awaken-blog/what-youre-not-learning-in-your-diversity-inclusion-workshops-the-basics-a4324afe3ada

    103. Paul Sweeney says:

      Worked with Morag Fulton before and found her to be a horrible, bitter, nasty person. She’s just a stooge put in the NEC to shore up the Nicola vote. Good riddance to this bunch of no-hope careerists who are destroying the party.

    104. Albert Herring says:

      “those that try to suggest that the recent Edinburgh Central stitch up had nothing to do blocking Joanna Cherry” = Nicola Sturgeon.

    105. jfngw says:

      @ian brotherhood

      If the allegations against NS are proven true , I have no problem with people wanting to see the evidence first, I do, then she is finished.

      Then comes the hard part, keeping the independence movement together and not losing the confidence of the public regarding governing ourselves. It will need a delft leadership hand to guide us through this without the movement splitting into factions.

      No matter what those on here think, NS has built up a respect amongst the public, you don’t destroy that without some collateral damage, it could set back independence for some time.

      The Britnats may have played the perfect game, they have preserved the union if NS goes or stays. It’s a depressing thought.

    106. CameronB Brodie says:

      I hope folk don’t think I live in a bubble, just because I’m slightly better informed in some matters.

      Bayesian Epistemology: Perspectives and Challenges (10-14 August 2020)

      The conference on 12-14 August 2020 is preceded by a Summer School on 10-11 August 2020.

      Idea & Motivation
      Bayesian epistemology remains the dominant account of rational beliefs, it underpins the dominant account of decision making in science and beyond, as well as many of our statistical methods.

      While important applications continue to to emerge, the work on the foundations of Bayesian epistemology never stops and a number of challenges are emerging.

      The aim of this conference is bring together scholars exploring applications, challenges and foundations of Bayesian epistemology….

      https://www.mcmp.philosophie.uni-muenchen.de/events/workshops/container/bayesian_epistemology_2020/index.html

    107. Orlando Quarmby says:

      Rhuaraidh Fleming – woke. Because this devious trougher from NE Fife will blow with the prevailing wind at Murrell Central & trample on anyone it takes to advance his career prospects to MSP salary level.

    108. Iain Donald says:

      I don’t think I have anyone to vote for, for the foreseeable future. How shite is that!

      If any of these new list parties appear on my ballot sheet, I may as well chuck one of them a vote as the alternative will be to draw a big boaby on it.

    109. Tannadice Boy says:

      Jfngw says

      I said I wouldn’t respond to you again but that is a ridiculous post. Blaming BritNats again. This situation was made in Scotland and didn’t need the intervention of MI5, Soros, or anybody else. NS has not built up a respect as you suggest. Quite the opposite a golden opportunity has been lost. Why? Is the only question left.

    110. CameronB Brodie says:

      The thing about an individual’s gender-ideology, is it’s individual to the individual. It is also difficult to prove substantive material evidence of an individual’s sexual/emotional/rational self-knowledge and understanding.

      Bayesian Epistemology and Having Evidence
      https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1275&context=open_access_dissertations

    111. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @jfngw –

      Let’s come back here tomorrow night after tennish and see if anyone’s changed their mind about NS.

      Probably not much of an exaggeration to say that some other indy bloggers will be watching it from behind their sofas.

    112. Jan Cowan says:

      JC, AS and PW must form a new Independence Party.

    113. jfngw says:

      @Tannadice Boy

      I haven’t blamed anyone, I asked to see the evidence, you don’t have to be in a game directly to get the outcome you require, or are you denying the SNP ripping themselves apart is the perfect storm for the BritNats. You really need to read what’s written, not what you think it is.

      You seem to be in a bubble, NS has huge approval ratings currently compared to most leaders, you can project your hatred of someone onto the whole population, I’ll just use the stats.

    114. Tannadice Boy says:

      Jfngw says

      I will qualify my comment I don’t respect her. I am not denying anything. The polls don’t interest me when the outcome is the gravy train, snouts in the public trough and daft domestic policies.

    115. Big Jock says:

      The public were blind to the talents and capability of Sturgeon when she first took over. Because they rely on the press to feed them their diet of opinion. Hence many non SNP people referred to Sturgeon as Jimmy Krankie.

      Ironically the very same people now think she is super dooper. Because she now has a daily platform to show off her hackneyed PR show.

      I say ironic because those in the yes side that used to spend their lives defending her. Now can’t stand the sight of her.

      That’s why the SNP will do so well in 2021. Because it all depends on spin and smoke and mirrors.

      Politics trainspotters like us, have the insight to see the truth. The dumb public accept what MSM tell them to believe.

    116. SilverDarling says:

      Well if the local parties are happy to endorse this lot then the SNP have been truly taken in and taken over. These individuals are the human equivalent of parasitoid wasps.

      If they do not get endorsement locally but party central overrules then we know NS is truly on board with their ideas. I wonder if it is possible to know how each member of the NEC voted and also why they are trying to keep it secret even from their own party members.

      I’ll admit I was impressed by Tommy Sheppard in the past but his silence in recent months over this issue speaks volumes. If he truly is one of them, well it just shows an eloquent speech in Westminster is all there is to some of them.
      It must be soul destroying for Joanna Cherry to have share oxygen with this lot.

      jfngw @4.08
      Jeez that is a scary article and shows how this stuff comes round in circles in different guises. It is always the same – to show how truly inclusive you are you must indulge some truly appalling ideologies otherwise you are ‘right wing’. Bizarrely I see Deeth and Magnus, two of the worst SNP-on-Twitter bedwetters, have made the giant intellectual leap that if you even quote without knowing someone’s background then you are essentially that person.

      I really hope I get visited by canvassers this time round.

    117. jfngw says:

      @Ian brotherhood

      I wasn’t going to watch it as I assumed it was just going to be a AS demolition job. But you made me think could it also be a NS demolition job, it depends on how they have decided to frame it. It’s the perfect chance to discredit both of them.

      I sometimes wonder if this was a plan to keep AS out of politics that they lost control of, sometimes these cunning plans can’t be controlled and once your committed there’s no turning back without destroying yourself. Remember it’s only a thought, there are other conclusions, I was going for the most sympathetic.

    118. Tannadice Boy says:

      Jfngw says

      I knew and commented at the time. As soon as AS wanted to come back into politics it was a left hand on the knee job. #metoo overstretched themselves. He was declared a free man under a robust jury system. AS demolition job that would he your job.

    119. jfngw says:

      @SilverDarling

      You only get a canvasser if you live in a marginal, it’s 46 years since I first voted and in that time I have only had a canvasser at the door once.

      @Tannadice Boy

      You are really going to hate me as I voted for NS in 1992 when she stood in Ballieston, Mount Vernon & Whatever (I think it’s called Glasgow East now).

    120. Tannadice Boy says:

      Jfngw says

      I don’t hate anybody. I am distantly related to NS. Its her policies I am having a go at.

    121. winifred mccartney says:

      I reckon 43% of people on the NEC are woke. I think they are over represented and do not mirror the general population. It has been a worry of mine for a while that the gay and lesbian people are over represented in the party and again do not mirror the general population.

      If this GRA reform legislation were to be put to the whole population or especially to all women I think it would be blown out of the water and that is why some people are determined to do so without asking the population.

      The idea that you cannot call a woman a woman or you have to accept people who are not biological women in women only safe spaces is outrageous. No piece of legislation should take away the rights already possessed by women or any other group.

      In my mind the party is being ruined from the inside and you have to ask who put them there and gave them the power to destroy.

    122. jfngw says:

      @Tannadice Boy

      How could I possibly do a demolition job on AS, I wish I was that influential, I rarely mention him. He had his attributes but also his deficiencies, as all politicians do.

      I have steered clear of any conclusions regarding NS as I don’t have any evidence, once it is out in the open, if it ever is completely, then I can decide.

    123. Saltire says:

      I’m sorry Stuart, I simply don’t find this article credible. I haven’t been a member of the SNP since the mid 2000’s but as I’ve said elsewhere I have continued to vote for them.

      You listed the NEC members by the constituency they were elected from. Those electing their representatives would be fully aware of who was standing and who was elected, as the ordinary party membership would be bombarded by those seeking election and it would be dicussed at branch and constituency level.

      Why would any political party make the minutes of internal party meetings available to all, without barriers, meaning political opponents could use them to their advantage? The party elects delegates (granting them authority to act on behalf of those who elected them) without them having to come back and forth for permission at every turn.

      In all the years I was a member, there were always malcontents and those looking to stir it up, including some on the NEC. Alex Salmond had his share to deal with as well.

      If people want to change things in the SNP, join the party or if already a member get more involved.

      There are a small number, of apparently pro-independence types, on this forum who are trying to undermine the SNP and attempt to “take-over” the movement by displacing the SNP. Unfortunately some in the party are feeding the sharks, wittingly or otherwise and other are being drawn in to believing the negative hype. I wonder how many are SWP types?

      The level of personal attacks on members of the party is actually rather shocking. It appears anyone who doesn’t agree with some on here is “woke”, “doesn’t believe in independence” or worse.

      Social media has given the outliers the oxygen that only used to be available on a much smaller scale by handing out hurriedly photcopied leaflets at Conference, National Assembly or National Council.

      Your writing is of a very high standard and when you focus on the arguments for independence, thoroughly enjoyable. I hope we see more of that and less of this type going forward.

    124. Tannadice Boy says:

      Jfngw says

      I was right to bin you. You are an NS shill. Got a seat lined up?. Enjoy your negative influence on Indy. When it comes to the pearly gates of heaven. I will get in. It’s what you do for the bairns that matters. And right now our SG is failing.

    125. stonefree says:

      I have made an assumption from the language he used ,that the candidate trumpeting his challenge to J.Baillie…..Is part of the woke brigade

    126. jfngw says:

      @ian brotherhood

      Really should have added this to to my last commented but you made me think about it a bit more.

      Those at the top of organisations, it doesn’t matter what they are, that surround themselves with yes men (or women, or well, who knows) or sycophants end up with those not willing to point out the holes in their plans, or even worse because they are of the same mindset can’t even see the holes. Some of the recent SNP policies have stank of this type of dysfunctional leadership.

    127. The quote you removed:
      “If you want to know who rules over you, look at who you are not allowed to criticize.”
      can be attributed to George Orwell which would predate its use by Kevin Alfred Strom

    128. Bob Mack says:

      Did Saltire just use the “malcontents” word?

      Do you have a pony by any chance?

    129. jfngw says:

      @Tannadice Boy

      Falkirk fan then?

    130. defo says:

      I say it again, some sort of real time live takedown would be more than fun.
      Monday with Wark.
      Tuesday it’s Dani.

      Would one of you socially connected digital natives make it so please?

      Comedy is a powerful tool.

    131. cynicalHighlander says:

      Ooh Saltire are you looking for the full condiment set with pepper and mustard? This site looks for the truth I believe and when a leader gives her full backing to a liar according to a judge she is of the same ilk.

    132. MorvenM says:

      Tommy Sheppard signed the Out for Indy pledge and, yes, I do judge people by what pledges they sign. Nobody is obliged to sign anything. Joanna Cherry didn’t. She signed the Women’s Rights pledge instead.

    133. deerhill says:

      So, according to the above, my MP is wokeist.

      Oh,great! , looks like I will not be voting SNP in the HR or the WM elections, unless there is a drastic change.(sad face)

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve not exactly been keeping up to speed with my epistemic skills over the last decade or three, though these are what is needed if you want to be effective in defending a legal identity. So I don’t know who’s been giving the party their legal advice re. gender and constitutional law, but I’d seek alternative opinion as a matter of priority.

      Reasons for (prior) belief in Bayesian epistemology

      Abstract
      Bayesian epistemology tells us with great precision how we should move from prior to posterior beliefs in light of new evidence or information, but says little about where our prior beliefs come from. It offers few resources to describe some prior beliefs as rational or well-justified, and others as irrational or unreasonable.

      A different strand of epistemology takes the central epistemological question to be not how to change one’s beliefs in light of new evidence, but what reasons justify a given set of beliefs in the first place. We offer an account of rational belief formation that closes some of the gap between Bayesianism and its reason-based alternative, formalizing the idea that an agent can have reasons for his or her (prior) beliefs, in addition to evidence or information in the ordinary Bayesian sense. Our analysis of reasons for belief is part of a larger programme of research on the role of reasons in rational agency (Dietrich and List 2012a,b).

      Keywords:
      Bayesian epistemology, doxastic reasons, prior and posterior beliefs, principle of insufficient reason, belief formation, belief change

      https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/295729734.pdf

    135. Reminds me of The Midwitch Cuckoos (John Wyndham 1957),

      but the `Cuckoos` were not got rid of they grew up and joined the SNP,

      at least we now know the names of most of the cuckoos but who or what Brood parasite put them there in the first place.

    136. Saltire says:

      Bob Mack and Cynical Highlander, sorry you’ve lost me with the pony and condiment set comments. Why don’t you say what you disagree with and we can debate that.

      I spent many years as a local office bearer, footsoldier, election agent and delegate to conference, assembly and national council, fundraiser and donator etc. I’m quoting the reality of my experience of the SNP why don’t you share your counter-experience then maybe we can get somewhere.

    137. Bob Mack says:

      @Saltire,

      You certainly have the credentials to unconditionally support the NEC of the party just now.

    138. GeeH says:

      Don’t know if this useful to help identify the woke on the NEC?

      https://twitter.com/OutForIndy/status/1179093132891303936

    139. Beaker says:

      @Saltire says:
      16 August, 2020 at 8:05 pm
      “You listed the NEC members by the constituency they were elected from. Those electing their representatives would be fully aware of who was standing and who was elected,”

      I don’t agree. Politics these days are led by personalities. Ask most people in a constituency that doesn’t have a prominent politician and you will hard pushed to get the correct answer.

      That’s why politics goes for the leader or the party. Remember a few years ago with the “Alex Salmond for First Minister”?

      If the constituents of certain MSPs and MPs knew everything about them they would be out on their ear.

      One thing is for certain, next year’s election will be the dirtiest on record.

    140. Saltire says:

      Bob Mack, where did I say supported the NEC or not? I’m not in the SNP anymore are, or were you? My point was about the mechanics of the NEC and election of delegates.

    141. Saltire says:

      Beaker, I wasn’t referring to parliamentary constituencies, rather the constituencies from which the NEC gets its membership which were listed in the article.

      I do understand your point though, and unless things have changed, most members are not active other than paying subs or going to fundraisers. It’s probably still the activists who drive the party even allowing for OMOV. Personality politics does best under OMOV which you rightly pointed out.

      If people want to “take the party back” they best do that by being active.

    142. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      I’ll be waiting to see who’s standing in my ward/area. Any fuckwits and i won’t vote- simples.

    143. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Saltire

      You haven’t been a member since 2000 SNP is is under new management and all past doctrines are out the windae and the present hierachy don’t believe in democracy it’s top down dictatorship.

    144. Kenny J says:

      I’ll repeat what Keith Brown told me last year at Bannockburn, after he had made a wee speech, as an individual, not on behalf of the party. I checked. And after ignoring Tommy Sheridan. Who had made, I thought, a impassioned one.
      Remember, this was while May was still it.
      I asked him about the Sec.30 thing.
      His words were, “they will blink first”, so the top tier thinking at that time was that the then Tory leadership would somehow cave in. Probably still do, and still a Sturgeon desciple. So a wookie.

    145. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Sunday Factoid:

      ‘The Iapetus Ocean disappeared by the end of the Silurian period. The great continent of Laurentia collided with another continent called Baltica. What is now England was on the northern coast of Baltica. The closure of this ocean brought England and Scotland together for the first time during Silurian times.’

      https://geologyglasgow.org.uk/local-rocks/scottish-fossils/

    146. jfngw says:

      O/T
      A diversion because, who knows

      I see someone on twitter is asking what you call the ends of a loaf of bread, heel, crust or outsider. Why is this even a question.

      Outsider (Ootsider to some) – the ends of a plain loaf
      Heel – ends of a pan loaf
      Crust – edges of a slice of bread (heels & outsiders excluded).

      End of.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      The thing that really rips my knitting, is those supporting genderwoowoo’s introduction into Scots law, have seriously undermined the potential for the public to support a properly woke/awake perspective, which supports diversity and social inclusion. These are essential to any hope for a sustainable future, and can be located in the opposite direction of travel from Brexitania.

      The fundamentals of being human
      In this inaugural episode, Mireille and Adam explore what it means to be human at the most basic level. Our goal is to explore the inner-workings of the human brain to better understand our humanity. What are we capable of? What are the common experiences of life we all share? We start by asking the question, “what are the fundamentals of being human?”

      https://changelog.com/brainscience/1

    148. You know, quite frankly, it’s an absolute embarrassment to have a Scottish government slavishly taking their cues from American extreme leftist politics. America is a capitalist fundamentalist country, as extreme in some respects as any Middle Eastern religious Hellhole. It has absolutely no regard for human life whatsoever.

      Having a load of total clowns who have grown up worshipping middle class American popular culture and dogshit woke politics, because they think awesome America’s where it’s at, and they basically want to BE American…is depressing and sad. They should go and live there for over a decade and see how enamoured of the place they still are, when they can’t afford to go to the doctor, or get killed by a stray bullet from a gangbanger, or encounter hardcore racism, or…

      …ah, there is no point.

      I don’t even have the energy to get angry at these fucking fools anymore. It’s like getting angry at something unevolved, non-sentient, like losing your temper at plankton or amoebas or any unicellular organism you care to name. Perhaps Ed Sheeran. Not even worth raising the blood pressure.

      HOWEVER.

      What I WILL say is that I will never forgive these parasites and saprophytes because they have put their own backward bitch-and-bastard idiot agendas before getting Scotland free of the yoke of our southern oppressor. They feed and water their selfie-serving egos in Holyrood and on social media on a daily basis, the gentle clink of self-congratulating champagne glasses lingering long into the trough-filled night in their homes, whilst the Tories starve the disabled and vulnerable to death, and foodbank use is at an all-time high.

      These dumb middle class fucks have no clear conception of real life whatsoever. They see politics as some sort of gollygoshgee look-at-me-me-me ego-stroke, coming out of yooni having studied politics and done fuck all else, then moving to depose older, more experienced politicians to bring their wee slimy scumfuck pals into positions of power.

      I will never, EVER vote for the SNP again (I have before) as long as this shower of toilet-clogging stinking shite are in power. Putting your own wee intersectionalist-obsessed American-wannabe policies into play and witlessly twittering on Twitter whilst weans starve in the streets, YOU UTTER SCUM. THIS IS NO JOKE. PEOPLE ARE DYING HERE. RESIGN. NOW.

      https://whorattledyourcage.blogspot.com/2019/08/fuck-american-sickness-part-2.html

    149. crazycat says:

      @ MorvenM at 8.29

      Joanna Cherry signed both pledges:

      https://archive.fo/DAohS
      “There is nothing in the women’s pledge that should prevent any member of the SNP from signing it. And as a lesbian and a feminist I have been proud to endorse the Out for Indy pledge.”

      Unless “endorse” does not = “sign”, of course.

    150. Denise says:

      @Beaker
      The NEC geographical representatives are voted by delegates to conference from the branches in the regions

    151. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WRYC (9.40) –

      Hear hear sah!

      Hear hear I say!

      😉

    152. Tannadice Boy says:

      Kenny J Says
      That’s interesting. I went to a public meeting with Tommy Sheridan leading. Great speech a genuine firebrand. And more he had the most insightful answer to the named person issue because I asked it. I guess domestic policies don’t matter any more. Vote SNP 1 2 and 3 and 4 and 5.

    153. crazycat says:

      @ stonefree at 8.09

      I have made an assumption from the language he used ,that the candidate trumpeting his challenge to J.Baillie…..Is part of the woke brigade

      Yep, he certainly is.

      He also:
      a) in 2016 replaced the sitting MSP as the candidate in Edinburgh Western (I have no idea why the incumbent was deemed unsuitable)
      b) then managed to lose the seat to Alex Cole-Hamilton
      c) blamed Michelle Thomson
      d) stood in Michelle’s seat of Edinburgh West in 2017
      e) managed to lose that seat to Christine Jardine.

      Depressing though it is, I think Jackie might be safe.

    154. CameronB Brodie says:

      WhoRattledYourCage
      You’ve clearly a limited understanding of gender politics, and appear unconcerned about gender equality. So how are you going to help sell indy?

    155. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      We see things differently, but that probably because I understand what proper woke is, and it’s not women hating trans-activism.

    156. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Schrodinger’s Cat has been washed ashore at WGD!

      😉

    157. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Huh?

      Was I talking to you?

      Away and gie’s peace.

    158. McDuff says:

      Saltaire
      You obviously had very little dealings with the party when you were a member because they are not interested in membership views.

    159. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If you are a party member you have access to the full list of NEC members by logging on to the My SNP website, clicking on My Branch and then opening the National Executive Committee tab.”

      No, you don’t. Please read properly. “a FULL list of the 42-MEMBER committee”. Go click your tab then count the names.

    160. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      You appear happy to swallow any populist shit being punted, so perhaps you might follow your own advice.

    161. mike cassidy says:

      Ellen Forson said she would be seeking SNP nomination

      http://archive.is/qb2pA

    162. ‘CameronB Brodie says:

      (Dry static hum of nothing useful or sensible continues on into infinity)’

    163. dakk says:

      “Please read properly”

      Fucksake.

      Gone soft in your old age.

    164. Terry says:

      God knows how Joanna cherry has coped with this level of vindictiveness. Hell mend them. The snp by this very act have demonstrated they’re not interested in independence. Plus at the top they are a bunch of lying backstabbers in contrast to its members who are thoroughly decent.

      They’ve had the coppers on to rev stu, Craig, mark and Alex. Funny how they all want independence. Oh how naive was I thinking it was all a Westminster stitch up. FFS it was Westminster civil servants who told Nicola she shouldn’t make the policy retrospective. She went ahead and did it with the clear purpose of bringing down Alex. Plus airbrushing him out of snp history.

      The whole saga makes Brutus look good. I honestly don’t know how Alex has held up. Mind you having a purpose gives you strength. His purpose is Scottish independence. The dream shall never die. Alex, if you’re reading, come back and save us from this nightmare.

    165. SilverDarling says:

      WRYC @9.40 PM

      They probably look even more longingly at Canada under JustinTrudeau.

    166. Steve McQueen says:

      The NEC membership is listed in the member-only part of MYSNP.

      I have watched the YSI grow from a group of immature students who don’t really understand the realities of life to a group of immature careerists who DO NOT have independence as their prime driver. They have their wee pet projects and Spear is a prime example of this.

      I have said it before and I can see it much much more clearly now. The SNP is nothing more than a vehicle to gain independence. Independence Day +1 the SNP will collapse into its constituent parts. The wokies are welcome to the wreckage.

    167. SilverDarling says:
      16 August, 2020 at 10:13 pm
      WRYC @9.40 PM

      They probably look even more longingly at Canada under JustinTrudeau.

      No, because he has a penis. But oh aye, good old blackface-sporting Trudeau (“Ma maman!”, as Al Jolson would have sung his most famous song in French), what a chap(ette). North America truly is fucked from dick to dorsal.

    168. holymacmoses says:

      I wonder whether Nicola Sturgeon voted against Ms Cherry’s application?

      If Saltire votes for the SNP why on earth doesn’t he support the entry of one or two other independence parties into the arena for the next election. He (Saltire) surely votes for the SNP because he supports independence – not because he supports the party. There is a better chance of gaining his wish if there are two votes for independence on the slip.

      If Sturgeon is on the programme tomorrow she’s clearly worried.
      About Sturgeon and Salmon Garavelli wrote: “this case was about Power and Sex”

      and added
      “In this trial the stakes were higher, and the waters muddier, than most. On the verdict hung not only the fate of the man who took the SNP from the fringes to the mainstream, and the country to the brink of independence, but that of his protege-turned-adversary, Nicola Sturgeon, along with the Scottish independence movement as a whole”

      That’s where the women got it wrong. Nothing much was ever very much about sex with Mr Salmond and to try to build a case using smutty little memories belittles the ladies as much as it belittles Mr Salmond’s amazing effort and even more belittles the aspirations of this country of ours.

      Alex Salmond may well have had flaws but anyone with any political nouse could see that the man was, and still is, driven by an obsession far, far greater than sex and he almost came home but having failed he willingly handed his dream to someone he trusted to carry the flame to the mountain top – that was Salmond’s big flaw: he trusted his country into the wrong hands. Sturgeon may be a very good politician but she’s married to the system she was born with. Nicola Sturgeon is an ‘Independent’ individual without the slightest imaginative spark of national independence. She’s a safe pair of hands within a union but her fingers will become thumbs at the very thought of gaining Independence for Scotland – that’s too big for her to handle.
      That’s why she’s surrounded by the ‘wokes’ of this world.
      Self-serving individuals with self-serving dreams are not the stuff of which a Country’s Independence is made

    169. terence callachan says:

      So…many people on here calling members of the SNP NEC …” woke “ In a derogatory manner

      The definition of “ WOKE “ is to be alive / aware of social issues such as racism

      So …tell me what is it you do not like about people who are aware and interested in issues that affect society at present ?

      I’m genuinely interested to hear what actually irks you

      You all continually call people on the NEC “ woke “ as if it’s some dreadful trait

      Come on let’s hear what it is you think woke means and why you dislike it

    170. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If Twitter reaction to the Wark documentary is anything to go by, the BBC has made a big mistake.

      See Craig Murray’s comment, at 5.56, above.

    171. ‘holymacmoses says:

      ‘About Sturgeon and Salmon Garavelli wrote: “this case was about Power and Sex”

      I would say more like anti-male sexism from Ms. Sturgeon, who is clearly no fan of my sex, especially in working class, white form.

    172. willie says:

      The more I look at the disfigurement of the party, the manipulation of process, the vindictive mendaciousness, the collusion with the apparatus of state, the more I realize that an absolute bloodbath is the only likely course of events.

      Backed by the establishment and the dark arts the Surgeon clique will burn the house down before they will concede power. They have been bought and sold.

      But let us hope not so. But I truly fear not. However, without the members and the wider independence supporters, Sturgeon and the clique are nothing. A hiccup maybe at a crucial time but they can be replaced, can be bypassed, and by God they will be.

      The Salmond affair and their abandonment of independence will expose them for the fifth columnists that they have are. And the blood, well it might well be all theirs.

    173. ‘terence callachan says:

      Come on let’s hear what it is you think woke means and why you dislike it’

      It’s originally a black American term. Which illustrates the wider problem here, really, taking political cues from the biggest open air insane asylum on the planet over here, during a critical, societally disintegrating juncture in its short existence.

    174. defo says:

      What’s becoming of dear old Auntie?
      Subtle isn’t a word to describe placing a scoop at the top of the Scotland page, that yet another pupil at a Scottish school is covid +, taking the “cluster” to 5. 5 seems to be pushing the definition of cluster to its limits!
      If in doubt, crank the fear handle.

    175. ‘SilverDarling says:
      16 August, 2020 at 10:13 pm
      WRYC @9.40 PM

      They probably look even more longingly at Canada under JustinTrudeau.’

      As for Canada…

      “Every theory has its holes when real life steps in” – Dead Kennedys.

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/racism-rife-at-canadian-museum-for-human-rights-qzbn8rfgw

    176. Asklair says:

      What a mess, little Westminster I think.

    177. Kenny J says:

      For those concerned about this state of affairs,
      depress yourselves further by listening to Mark Hirst on Barrhead Boy’s blog. It’s an hour, but Mark knows what he’s talking about.
      https://www.barrheadboy.com/scottish-prism-14th-august-2020-mark-hirst/
      Do I stay in the SNP or pack it in. Don’t know.

    178. Famous15 says:

      I am no longer a member of the SNP having cancelling over an anti Sutherland planning decision being called in but I would have resigned anyway to avoid paying the wages of the wokists.

      However I might rejoin , if a vaccine is found , to move a conference motion that all NEC meetings are open to the PUBLIC never mind members.

      However I want to see independence in my lifetime so just get on with it!

    179. CameronB Brodie says:

      “I would say more like anti-male sexism from Ms. Sturgeon, who is clearly no fan of my sex, especially in working class, white form.”

      Not even trying to be subtle. This is the same white, working-class victim-hood, that the right-wing used to sell Brexit. It is straight from the Big Boys Book of Post-truth Populism. What a shame so many appear open to opinion that is clearly total bollocks.

    180. mike cassidy says:

      Those intending to watch the Wark programme

      Will want to know this.

      https://twitter.com/KirsteinRummery/status/1294731606134071297

    181. terence callachan says:

      There is no alternative to voting for SNP in the next Scottish independence referendum
      There just isn’t

      WOS can hate SNP as much as they like but there is no alternative that will give you Scottish independence

      A lot of people on here keep saying they won’t vote SNP because of woke people on the SNP NEC

      Get a life
      Nobody’s listening to crap like that because they know that only the SNP will get us Scottish independence

      All those intending to respond to my message here please remember and say who you think will get us who , other than SNP will get us Scottish independence because you you never do

    182. Meanwhile, in Chicago, my old stomping grounds, the American quest for justice is all going very well. Nothing like attacking sick children and their families to further your cause:

      https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/aug/12/chicago-looters-attacked-ronald-mcdonald-house-wit/?fbclid=IwAR3-f5oxCr4ZxN7eJZ8rly4f6Bh7v6-86eYlD_wpxBBmNk_RXQn_7wF2jWQ

      And here’s something to ponder the next time somebody says that money for slavery reparations should flow:

      https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-matter-chicago-defends-looting-reparations-1524502

    183. terence callachan says:

      Famous15…1042hrs…please describe what you mean by “ wokists “

    184. Denise says:

      @Terrance

      Currently there is no one that will get us independence. The snp under the current leadership certainly won’t. So we need a plan b.
      Change the snp leadership completely
      Or find / start a new Indy party I.e ISP

    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      WhoRattledYourCage
      You are aware the woke perspective does not reject the biological differences between the sexes?

      International Journal of Communication 14 (2020), 799–812
      Privileged Vulnerability: Embodied Pedagogy as Critical Rhetorical Praxis

      https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/download/8483/2962

    186. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @mike cassidy –

      Are you sure it’s okay to even copy that link?

    187. Polly says:

      This is pretty much what I thought was going on behind the scenes. It’s still disheartening to see it down in print. These people only care about their own agendas and petty prejudices. Their malice to anyone they disagree with has long been obvious. But that they’re allowed to do this to Joanna Cherry and to the party is the heartbreaker.

    188. holymacmoses says:

      The notion that Nicola Sturgeon is indispensable to the winning of independence is rubbish. There are plenty of people fit to take the lead were Sturgeon forced to leave. I think Joanna Cherry and Philippa Whitford to name but two. And one assumes Alex would be around to help with the big time stuff either in front or behind the scenes. I’m also looking forward to having more folk like the ones who have been writing on twitter over the past few years, Wings attracts some very bright individuals.

      Whorattledyourcage: I pointed out in a tweet the other day that SNP didn’t seem to like strong men very much:-)

      Terence Callachan -WOKE:that’s the problem. Self-serving, semi-literate, self-centred people have taken over a word which in its original context was something to be admired by everyone.I certainly do believe that Black Lives Matter is a remarkable and necessary movement. BUT don’t ask me to believe that the petty parochial self-serving coterie of little mimsies who belong to theSNP/NEC brigade are in any way, shape or form to be compared with the millions who suffer mindless cruelty, hypocrisy and inequality levelled at them by racists

    189. stonefree says:

      @ crazycat at 9:47 pm

      Thanks
      re a) in 2016 replaced the sitting MSP as the candidate in Edinburgh Western (I have no idea why the incumbent was deemed unsuitable)
      2016 was the time I spotted all was not well in the selection business,.There were 6 candidates supposedly
      One was Nicholson, to be fair he did say he was up for another 4 seats, One guy was first class. another guy was older had a lot of world experience, quietly spoken no bad thing, someone else whom I’ve forgotten about, another didn’t turn up and finally the worst of the lot, devoid of any passion read the SNP advert notes….It seemed like the result of a rendition flight ( I place that person last out of the 6 bear in mind 1 didn’t turn up0…..Result they won by a margin…….This was not the only constituency where this happened
      I was warned not to speak about it
      The point of this post is , that was the first election where Sturgeon was in charge with Murrell
      b) then managed to lose the seat to Alex Cole-Hamilton
      c) blamed Michelle Thomson
      d) stood in Michelle’s seat of Edinburgh West in 2017
      e) managed to lose that seat to Christine Jardine.

      Depressing though it is, I think Jackie might be safe.

    190. stonefree says:

      I should have edit out b to e
      Sorry

    191. ‘holymacmoses says:

      Whorattledyourcage: I pointed out in a tweet the other day that SNP didn’t seem to like strong men very much:-)’

      They enjoy neutering them, calling them out to speak to Twitter matron if they say something not in line with party lockstep ‘ideology.’ Alex Salmond was the ultimate strong, capable man they could not stand, and they tried to destroy him.

      A lot of the young male SNP members are fey, effete, somewhat ineffectual, spouting faux-feminist credentials, very much in keeping with modern, ever-more-female times. Which is fair enough, in some ways, but neither women nor men respect these kind of milquetoast pantywaists.

    192. SilverDarling says:

      WRYC @10.31pm

      Canada is an absolute shitshow and an example of what happens when you go down the road the SNP wokies want.

      For an example of their policies gone wild just google ‘Jessica Yaniv’ and the beautician waxing case. In that one case Transgender Rights were unmasked as racist misogyny.

      Also look up the Vancouver R*pe Crisis Center whose funding was discontinued because they would not admit self identifying men.
      https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/03/20/discontinuation-of-grant-to-vancouver-rape-relief-shows-trans-activism-is-an-attack-on-women/

      I believe Canada is one of the countries S-A Sommerville looks to as an example of ‘best practice’ !

    193. Addendum: when I say ‘A lot of the young male SNP members’ I should state that I mean those looking for political power within the party in Holyrood, just to clarify.

    194. shug says:

      Stu you will never overcome the woke brigade by shouting and hating them. Sometimes you start to sound like a unionist.

      You must invite them to express their case more widely so we can be more certain of their madness.

      I am sure the more they say the more they will endanger their cause. Angry shouting will achieve nothing

      Boris has a choice to make, he will join in a section 30 (we don’t need one but it ensures an easy transition to indy). These public school boy types would fire their own house to stop anyone else having it and they would fire scotland in the twitch of an eye. By agreeing to one he maintains the pretense of control.

      Alternatively he will not support one and indy will go through the roof as even staunch unionists respond to the insult, and as they lose control, and more importantly to them, will be seen to lose control in the eyes of the world.

      Everyone but them can see the end of the UK – the final disintegration of the empire

    195. SilverDarling says:

      WRYC @10.31pm

      Comment went straight to moderation as I put in a link with the R word. Comment below without the link.

      Canada is an absolute shitshow and an example of what happens when you go down the road the SNP wokies want.

      For an example of their policies gone wild just google ‘Jessica Yaniv’ and the beautician waxing case. In that one case Transgender Rights were unmasked as racist misogyny.

      Also look up the Vancouver R**e Crisis Center whose funding was discontinued because they would not admit self identifying men.

      I believe Canada is one of the countries S-A Sommerville looks to as an example of ‘best practice’ !

    196. schrodingers cat says:

      @craig murray
      How the cat, capella, dr. jim etc react to the certain knowledge Nicola tried to destroy Alex – they have been in desperate denial – is key.
      ——————-

      as capella said on the previous thread, not denial, i believe people are innocent until proven guilty.

      i dont doubt that the brit establishment went for AS, but as for NS involvement, i have no idea, i await the enquiry.
      as every fair minded person should.

      I will judge on the evidence. not your rumours

    197. iain mhor says:

      @Ayrshire Rob 9:23pm

      I understand your sentiment and it’s one much of the electorate share I’m sure. For single candidates at constituency level, that’s fine.

      However, when it comes to List voting and Party voting – it is still a ‘Closed List’; you will be takimg a gamble voting for a Political Party – it’s a blind vote.

      It’s how the halfwits get in – the Party decides – you won’t know. You may suspect what their short leet is; and with judicious digging, you may get a handle on a Party’s preferred candidate – but you can never be sure.

      Of course independents/single candidates on the List are a different matter.

      I mentioned previously (on another thread) it was one of the recommendations of the Arbuthnott Commission; to make Holyrood elections more democratic for the electorate – move to Open List (or just adopt STV and rank candidates on your ballot) but it was kicked into the long grass.

      Yeah, I know, Alistair Darling… where’d he get to anyway? Oh aye, right.

      However, it is one of those small ‘motions’ we all could push for, which actually could bring big democratic change at Holyrood – weeding the warmers the fuck out of the Scottish Parliament at source for starters – and bloody Party noses for good measure.

      There is much talk of ‘vetting’ within Parties – vetting should be at the ballot box – Open List.

    198. mike cassidy says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      I’ve got my ‘fund me’ page ready to go!

      This is definitely going to be one of those films where you would like to see an accompanying “making of” documentary

    199. jfngw says:

      @SilverDarling

      @Best Practice’ is one of the management speak terms used to shut down opposition and give the impression they have thoroughly analysed the issue (often they haven’t and use it as cover).

      Managers used it at meetings (or used to in my day) as a blocking mechanism to objection. If you raised any concern, it would be thrown back as ‘so you don’t want to use best practice’, even if there was no qualification as to why it was ‘best practice’.

      It sat along side ‘mission statement’ of management bullshit.

    200. SilverDarling says:

      @jfngw

      Yes, exactly.

      It should mean evidence based practices that lead to the best outcomes (it does in medicine). However,as with all the recent badly constructed consultations the SNP have done, it appears to mean all the countries that have introduced the type of legislation they want to introduce here.

      The evidence that it did any good is quite difficult to find and there is more and more evidence it has done a lot of harm.

    201. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi terence callachan.

      I’ve been an SNP voter since the first 1974 election. I joined the party in the 90s but let it lapse. I rejoined in 2014.

      I’ve been to local branch meetings which, frankly, I found boring. All reports about this and that (treasurer’s reports and so on) and next to no time to discuss matters pertaining to the struggle for Scottish independence.

      I regard myself as “keeping my finger on the pulse” of what’s going on in Scotland, politically, like many readers of WOS, WGD, PGP, Commonweal and so on.

      Unfortunately, we who keep the finger on the pulse, are in the minority. The majority of Scots appear to get their news from the evening ‘STV News At Six’ or ‘Reporting Scotland’ at half past.

      I raised the issue of GRA with a couple of workmates at the end of February, start of March – and they didn’t have any knowledge of the move to allow bearded men, who claim to be “female”, to access ladies’ bogs and changing rooms – just because they self-identify as “women”. They were appalled – partly at the whole idea and partly because they had not learned about it from “the news”.

      I have come to the conclusion that the party I pay my dues to, has, somehow, lost the plot, regarding the primary objects of its constitution…

      “Aims2. The aims of the Party shall be:(a) Independence for Scotland; that is the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty by restoration of full powers to the Scottish Parliament, so that its authority is limited only by the sovereign power of the Scottish People to bind it with a written constitution and by such agreements as it may freely enter into with other nations or states or international organisations for the purpose of furthering international cooperation, world peace and the protection of the environment.”

      Why are things going so wrong, from the perspective of independence activists?
      And, what will happen when the MSM, who are keeping a lot in reserve, finaly unleash their assault with the ammunition of GRA, hate bill and so on?

      We need a Holyrood plebiscite election by the end of October, start of November, to save us from what will happen once the UK leaves the EU.

    202. Craig Murray says:

      Mike Cassidy can you copy and paste it? I get a message that the account owner limits who can view their tweets.

    203. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Hopefully tomorrow’s screening of the BBC/Wark effort will help focus a lot of minds and get people talking in workplaces all over the country.

      😉

    204. Beaker says:

      @terence callachan says:
      16 August, 2020 at 10:51 pm
      “Famous15…1042hrs…please describe what you mean by “ wokists “

      A wookie that’s had a back, sack and crack wax 🙂

    205. kapelmeister says:

      Sociology uses the concept of the reference group. A reference group is a collection of people that we might use to understand social norms, values and behaviours. A person does not need to belong to a reference group in order to be influenced by it and to use it as a measure.

      There is ample evidence that Sturgeon looks to the reference group of woke theorists and activists in USA & Canada and is heavily influenced by them. As are some close Sturgeon allies in the SNP.

      Since Sturgeon’s reading strongly appears to consist exclusively of middlebrow fiction it is hardly surprising she could be psychologically in thrall to such a ridiculous, fringe thinking group of people.

      Previous SNP leaders looked to more conventional reference groups including groups from their own party. Sturgeon though, and perhaps out of some deep seated feeling of inferiority, appears to need validation from a more exotic group that gives off the appearance of being cutting edge.

    206. holymacmoses says:

      WhoRattledYourCage: I’m glad you qualified your remarks:-) I’m sure there’s lots of fine young cannibals desperate to lead Scotland out of the wilderness it’s just that they’re not attracted to working with Nicola Sturgeon – and is that surprising?

      Mike Cassidy: Clearly Kirstein Rummery knows who at least 5 of the women are OR she’s one of the 5 🙂

    207. jfngw says:

      @Craig Murray

      If you are using a computer install a second web browser which you don’t login to twitter with. Those that block individuals don’t always block just random browsing (I can see the tweets and I’m not a twitter member).

      You might be able to do it by just logging out but the cookies could still cause a problem.

    208. mike cassidy says:

      Craig Murray

      Here’s a straight – and messy – copy and paste.

      Its the “we were all” bit that intrigued me.

      Kirstein Rummery
      @KirsteinRummery
      We were all interviewed months ago when none of us knew the verdict.
      Quote Tweet
      Martin MacDonald
      @Innealadair
      · Aug 15
      I wonder if Wark’s program was all set up and ready to go for a guilty verdict and that’s why she was apparently so upset about the acquittals? That also makes me wonder when the interviews were done.
      9:24 PM · Aug 15, 2020·

    209. crazycat says:

      @ iain mhor at 11.31

      However, when it comes to List voting and Party voting – it is still a ‘Closed List’; you will be takimg a gamble voting for a Political Party – it’s a blind vote.

      It’s how the halfwits get in – the Party decides – you won’t know. You may suspect what their short leet is; and with judicious digging, you may get a handle on a Party’s preferred candidate – but you can never be sure.

      The identities of the candidates on the list, and their order, is a matter of public record, is it not?

      More than once I’ve chosen to not vote for a party because I didn’t like their leading candidate (the party didn’t win a seat anyway, as it happened).

      The list is “closed” inasmuch as that order has already been decided before polling day, but it’s not a secret!

    210. Polly says:

      @ jfngw

      Thank you for posting that link. It’s quite horrifying it was so widespread in Germany and I’d never heard of this in detail before. I’m left leaning myself and have been aware of quite a few cases like that in different countries and times where the left grossly overstepped boundaries. Left academics create the situation with things like these where they become common currency and left politicians or newspapers promote it. Whatever their original motivation, that laxity let paedophiles latch on and gives them cover. It’s always horrifying when it sees the cold light of another day or era.

      I noticed one quote though ‘thanks to the women’s movement, have long been deemed worthy of protection.’ so the feminist movement, same one which still has a lot of the same old style feminists were the ones then who had had some influence in protection for girls back then. Those same type of women in feminism today are the terfs now and being called that by the interlopers within their movement. Horrifying reading but glad I did, thanks for posting it.

    211. Beaker says:

      @Craig Murray

      Try AVG browser. You get it free with free AVG antivirus. Nothing gets blocked on Twitter. Has the occasional hiccup but it also blocks pop up ads.

    212. jfngw says:

      @Polly

      It wasn’t my find really, it was on the ‘Mr Malky’ twitter feed, I just put it here for those who may not read her twitter feed.

    213. jfngw says:

      @Polly

      Just to add, these issues never go away, they disappear for a time while the types of perpetrators look for another angle once they have been rumbled. Each generation have to confront it, it requires perpetual vigilance, not just of the perpetrators but of the enablers that think they are being progressive.

      I was a teenager in the late sixties/early seventies, I remember the culture that enabled people like Jimmy Saville a free reign. It wasn’t to my knowledge as extreme as the Germany example but the lowering of barriers was certainly on the agenda.

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      There is nothing wrong with the woke perspective, which is tangentially different to what appears to have taken over the party.

      International Journal of Critical Pedagogy, Vol 3 (3) (2011) pp 24-36
      Wide-Awakeness: Toward a Critical
      Pedagogy of Imagination, Humanism,
      Agency, and Becoming

      http://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/download/247/114

    215. Walter Jones says:

      Sturgeon is a fraud.

    216. Polly says:

      @ jfngw

      Indeed. I knew about similar things from France back in the 70s through my reading of Sartre and de Beauvoir and reading about their lives, and things further back too in the 20s. The Saville thing though, seemingly so well known by folk at the time, yet not well known to most folk in the country was a surprise to me. After all that was the time of Mary Whitehouse and her complaints about seemingly silly things, yet a huge great bombshell was waiting there all the time undiscovered. I’m still left wing ish but begin to wonder if finding out more and more about some of the truly bad ideas which come from the left is what makes some older people tend to move right. Thankfully even in Germany then many stood against it. I’m even more grateful many still do despite being left wing.

    217. Jimmy Jo says:

      Sturgeon has done nothing to further the cause of Scottish Independence.

    218. Jimmy Jo says:

      Polly

      You are one bullshitting bore.

      Fuck Off.

      And let us get on with fighting for Scottish Independence.

      You name dropping Yawn.

    219. Jimmy Jo says:

      Polly

      Every inch the Tartan Tory.

    220. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andrew @ 5:20pm
      I’m not in the least surprised the Disabled Group is resisting the male rights trans-activism within the party.

      KALEIDOSCOPE > Vol. 18 (2019)
      Getting “Woke” on Intersectionality: Illuminating the Rhetorical Significance of Disability Discourse in Feminist Activist Spaces

      Abstract
      In the 28 years since the establishment of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), individuals with disabilities still live on the margins in social, public, and mediated discourse. Women of color with disabilities, in particular, still struggle to challenge their positionality on the margins due to multifaceted layers of oppression, ranging from sexism, racism, classism, and ableism as further complexities of identity.

      Yet, in a society with such disregard for and contestation involving disability issues, there is hope with disability activist Vilissa Thompson. In this rhetorical analysis, I examine Thompson as a marginal rhetor whose disability activism serves as a form of public pedagogy to inform the public how to engage in disability discourse in feminist activist spaces.

      Examined is Thompson’s hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite and her development of the website Ramp Your Voice as a discursive mediated platform of empowerment for people of color with disabilities. Applications for applying intersectional theory in praxis are discussed.

      https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/kaleidoscope/vol18/iss1/6/

    221. twathater says:

      May I make this plea to Mr & Mrs Salmond

      I have previously said on here a few times that the PERSON who leads Scotland to independence will go down in the annals of history as the ONE who FREED Scotland from it’s oppressor

      What could be more uplifting and humbling to know that future generations of children will be taught that the name Alex Salmond will be revered in history alongside WALLACE and BRUCE , and although you led an unsuccessful attempt in 2014 you never lost your courage of conviction , and through determination and Scottish resilience you eventually led your country to assert it’s freedom again despite a concerted effort of lies and corruption waged against you by the establishment you showed your grit and integrity to overcome the obstacles and WIN freedom for Scotland

      As a Famous SON OF SCOTLAND SAID “THE DREAM WILL NEVER DIE” make our dream come true Mr Salmond

    222. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Fascinating Stuart.

      My boss got a personal thankyou from SNP Constituency Branch in Argyll & Bute (and a visit by John Swinney) for helping get rid of the hapless LibDem MSP George Lyon from Argyll & Bute when his local media facility with a 3,500 circulation swung behind SNP candidate Jim Mather in 2007.

      Jim Mather won Argyll & Bute by less than a 450 vote swing.

      Alex Salmond got into government by one MSP.

      Fast forward to this article and today.

      Stuart, your insight and list above had me see if Rhiannon Spears had anything about Wings in her Twitter feed.

      All she has is PITY ME, PITY ME, EVERYONE IS HORRID AND I DON’T DESERVE IT.

      After all the shite that person has flung about it is interesting seeing Karma catch up with her.

      But the really interesting bit on her Twitter pity-fest is how she will be the next MSP for Argyll & Bute. Aye, right.

      http://archive.is/wip/d2Ljj

      I am going to speak with my old boss tomorrow and ask if Rhiannon Spear can have questions from the constituency branch office about her alleged involvement in the Joanna Cherry stitch up.

      Was Rhiannon McWoke-Spores one of the fist-bumpers when the SNPs brilliant legal mind Joanna Cherry QC MP., was gerrymandered out of Holyrood?

      Was Rhiannon McWoke-Spores an author of dumping the MP Joanna Cherry, who, in turn had succeeded In humiliating Boris and the Tory Government by forcing them, in law, to recall the UK parliament?

      Plus Rhiannon McWoke-Spears can expect a formal request from Argyll & Bute to supply a copy of the full NEC minutes from the last three meetings.

      Stuart and everyone here who cares about the McWokeist infestation in the SNP, best play them at their own game. Rejoin the SNP if necessary. Get back into the branch and VOTE THESE FIFTH-COLUMN PEOPLE OUT.

      Rhiannon or any of your cronies that read this, and there will be one or two who sneak, lurk, stalk and occasionally troll here…

      Your time of total control pulling Nicola’s strings is coming to an end.

      Rhiannon Spears will either get the bums rush, or worse, she will be ALLOWED to stand and then FORCED TO FACE every constituency branch meeting and explain her wokeist tendencies that are KILLING OFF INDYREF2.

      Ya beauty, this article and the consequence just made my day. If you knew my boss you would understand why I am so happy.

      McWoke Brigade GIRFUY.

      I want IndyRef2

      I would like decent SNP members to get on with each other better and the infighting to stop.

      That is only likely when your scheming lying devious, secretive (minute hiding) sleekit conduct is banished and you are sent back to at job you used to do cleaning out the shit from the monkey enclosure at Edinburgh Zoo.

    223. robbo says:

      Aye Iain mohr I get the idea.Crazycat after the last shitsgow in Ayr,the constituency was lost on 750 votes ,the names of all those involved are well known.I’ll be paying attention very much to constituency and LIST candidates,I’ll find out- smiley thing. Am an x spy lol anyway I’ve got a Fence to finish b4 rain comes.

    224. susan says:

      Al-Stuart and robbo, good to see some ideas of how to get the SNP back on track.

    225. Robert Louis says:

      Twathater at 325am,

      Totally, totally, agree. Although Alex Salmond may just decide he has had enough, given what these lying barswteards in the SNP. including, it seems, NS have put him through.

      Alex showed his commitment to indy. A man of the very highest integrity and personal commitment to independence for Scotland. He didn’t have to, but he did. I too would love to see him back.

      Meanwhile in six years, Nicola Sturgeon and her wokerati cabal have done nothing but try to destroy the indy movement from within. All while Scotland get f***ed by the most twisted, corrupt, racist and evil, English Tory government in history.

    226. Polly says:

      @ Susan

      Agree, hope some good ideas do have an effect since we don’t have much time left.

      @ Cameron

      Your link at 12.35am which you say shows ‘There is nothing wrong with the woke perspective’ That article in itself seems to me contains the seeds of exactly what we’re now seeing. There’s the over emotional, waffle language, the nonsense quotes such as “speak by listening”, the insistence on plurality and listening to all voices in a classroom while lauding classroom democracy which would mean all voices being equally weighted or when too many students agree things like ‘sex is a social construct’ then lecturers for the sake of democratic classroom politics will agree with that nonsense, the emphasis on a teachers ‘caring relationship’ leads to not challenging a student sufficiently for them to challenge themselves or their biases. I’m not seeing how that all differs much from how some of the recent generation of folk seem to behave. Perhaps other articles are more enlightening? You’re right it is important to understand this and how to counter it since it affects us all but I’m not sure this article does dispel anything.

      ‘Every inch the Tartan Tory.’

      Aw meeny mo, every inch the tiny tot.

    227. Contrary says:

      “Dan Watt says:
      16 August, 2020 at 4:06 pm
      We now URGENTLY need to think about what the Yes movement looks like without the SNP and how we get another referendum without having a party that supports independence being in power in Holyrood.”

      Yes.

      Also, the podcast by barrheadboy with Mark Hirst – we should not rely on any career politician to bring us independence.

      The SNP ship has sailed – it was a vain hope we could have a simple political solution, with one party delivering independence to us, though the SNP has come close and has made it feasible for us. But I guess power really does corrupt.

      Time to move on.

      All the people that are planning to get SNP back on track – I hope you manage this and I think it is a worthy cause, so all the best of luck. I don’t think the wider Yes movement should rely on it or wait for it though – ideas are forming and solutions may be found soon.

      At the moment, if the priority of your voting intention is independence, it seems pointless voting for the SNP, everyone should vote with their conscience, there is no certainty – not yet anyway.

      In a fantasy world – it would be a huge relief to me if a party formed with Alex Salmond as head, with J Cherry and P Whitford at his side, and much talent flocking to their sides. Well, unlikely, but I can imagine easily the relief I’d feel to have such an alternative to vote for, a party that avoided the English Parliament.

    228. linda says:

      Its worth noting that the NEC has had changes since the James Doran and first JC vote. If you are going to try give information for background, give the full background. Also, being vetted is a process that must be undertook, we don’t know why JC was rejected at vetting. You all can’t simply say the wokies should not pass vetting just because you don’t like them when you don’t even know the reason why JC – your lord and saviour – was not accepted by NEC. HIGHLY HYPOCRITICAL.

      The lack of impartiality here is shocking. The lack of minutes of NEC meetings for full membership is understandable, probably not a good idea to give 125,000+ people the possible dirty laundry of the party, there’s already been enough NEC leaks as it is.

    229. Mialuci says:

      I must admit I do not really follow or read much about politics, I just find it all so boring, I much prefer to use my time constructively and not destructively as a lot of people seem to do these days, I had a confrontation with a person a few days ago, he just had to say something nasty to me, I never ever speak to this person, but every now and again he has to have a go, I told him very politely to fuck off and go and annoy someone that gives a damn, I do hope he got the message as I am sick of repeating myself to this numpty, but as history has shown me, he will be back with a new moan about something or other, this guy would find fault with god himself and he was the one that created the useless bastard. ( excuse my french )

    230. stuart mctavish says:

      @Mike Cassidy

      One irony of the show being pre recorded (if indeed it was) is that, but for statute introduced by Gordon Brown* and Alex Salmond**, the appropriate crime to associate it with might reasonably be sedition – particularly in so far as it promotes (or seeks to promote) disaffection against the administration of justice*** (and compounds such promotion with premeditation) – rather than a simple contempt of court

      *https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/25/section/73
      **https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2010/13/section/51
      ***https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_Kingdom

    231. Terry says:

      Maybe we should start a wee crowdfunder for the NEC and some of the politicians in the SNP to buy them all a copy of 1984 and Animal Farm? They need an education.

      Instead of reading middle brow keech and adopting neo-conservative clap trap they’d do well to read the two definitive books on human nature, politics and power. Quite ironic Orwell wrote these on Jura. The present day SNP is a scary example of how things can pan out.

      I mean what happened to independence? What about land reform? What about the poor and dispossessed? And when do we ever hear of ridding Scotland of Trident? It’s all about bearded men wearing dresses and curtailing free speech and winning over soft nos – aye right. Bullshit.

      They really should look at the sudden downfall of SLAB and pay attention. And nobody likes a backstabber – remember David Milliband and how he fell from grace?

      Some of us older heads out there who have been conned before know that the feeling in our gut when it’s happening again. Nothing would please me more than if I was wrong but I’d place a hefty bet on it that I’m right.

      Thanks again Wings. This article confirms the rot is worse than even I feared.

    232. Dorothy Devine says:

      Anyone see the wee headline about the Scottish Government/SNP fielding the greatest number of bullying complaints of any UK government?

      To be fair it is a headline from Microsofts idea of news in Scotland and they always feature the Daily Mail and Daily Record – hardly stalwart supporters of the SNP, Independence or Scotland.

    233. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The NEC membership is listed in the member-only part of MYSNP.”

      As I’ve already said: not the FULL membership.

    234. Papko says:

      “Maybe we should start a wee crowdfunder for the NEC and some of the politicians in the SNP to buy them all a copy of 1984 and Animal Farm?”

      Thats exactly what I think Terry.
      “Animal farm ” should be mandatory for any one, considering a career in politics, and anyone deciding who to vote for.

      And so eerily prescient when we see our elected SNP MP’s change into …..

    235. Republicofscotland says:

      Boris Johnsons smartest advisers telling him to quickly agree to a indyref if there’s a SNP majority at Holyrood next May.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18655116.boris-johnson-warned-cant-say-no-indyref2-mandate/

    236. Kevin Evans says:

      I think the SNP need to wake up and understand it can put in place all the fancy committees and groups and have organisations and titles all they like but the true essence of the party is at the hands of the scottish people – if we start to fall out with them they’re finished. The SNP at grassroots is not your normal political party. We the people elevated it to where it is at the moment and we the people will take it down also.

    237. Effijy says:

      I seen that Scot Gov bullying crap from the Nazi supporting
      Daily Hail.

      Obviously never wasted my time clicking on their bait but their
      Stories tend to go- “ A reliable source right at the heart of government
      swore this story was true on his Granny’s Cat’s life” and for a £2,000 fee.

      They put up a picture for the story and it just happens to be Alex Salmond
      It looks like Alex is walking away from the which hunt court case where his
      Piers announced him to be innocent of all charges.

      I watched a movie about Hitler invading Norway, who wished to remain neutral.
      They broadcast a story that Norway had allowed British mines to be laid in their
      Waterways, which didn’t happen, and they knew it, therefore they were against
      Germany. The Norwegian people wanted protection from Germany they said so
      They bombed and shot everyone in their path saying that they were trying to reach
      Their corrupt government.

      The Daily Hail liked that form of broadcasting that gives license to create stories to fit
      Their agenda that they just can’t give it up.

    238. Ottomanboi says:

      Supercomputers are increasingly being employed to find ‘solutions’. Such devices produce models for areas such as economics, business, climate, health.
      Computer models have dictated, the term is apposite, the course of the global strategy to deal with Covid-19 disease.
      Aside from the philosophical implications of reasoning human beings handing over authority to inanimate entities the high risk of corrupted models owing to hacking is ever present with their use.
      https://www.zdnet.com/article/supercomputers-hacked-across-europe-to-mine-cryptocurrency/
      One day the machines will stop…..that ought not to mean a return to the stone age.

    239. Republicofscotland says:

      Forward as One, the group raising funds to take to court the need for a S30 order, have asked the SNP and the Greens to back their cause, answers from both parties are expected this week.

    240. mike cassidy says:

      Another tweet from Kirstein Rummery re her appearance in the Wark program

      Watch the programme before you judge. Personally I was asked about his behaviour, not the legal case. And his behaviour was appalling.

      https://twitter.com/PGtwweets/status/1295258922501246981

    241. holymacmoses says:

      Terry 8:18 I fear you’d need to make it an audio book. There seems particular problems with comprehension of language and even more problems with concentration on anything but their own inner self – so they probably need to download it onto some sort of player or something and listen to a paragraph a day.
      I fear that a title like ‘1984’ would be too passe for them so I think you’d have to change that to ‘Woke Days’ and then they might give it a bash.
      Animal Farm sounds OK though:-)

    242. Breeks says:

      It seems a corruption of the List Parties, but maybe they should resolve to put up a candidate in every Constituency with a Wokist SNP Candidate.

      This potential influx of Wokist MSP’s all being approved candidates by a Wokist NEC, which boasts of an ‘internal majority’ to look after Wokist issues, is opening up like The Invasion of the Bodysnatchers. They’re popping up everywhere and trying to take control.

      Is it benign? Hell No!

      Look at the Machiavellian plot to rewrite the rules to prevent Joanna Cherry, arguably Scotland’s best hope for Independence, from coming back from Westminster to fight for Independence at Holyrood. The backstabbing, the smearing, the attempt at blackballing, the parachuting in of a suitably woke alternative with the backing of the SNP / Wokist contingent, and ultimately the Woke NEC orchestrating a rule change to prevent her.

      Then there’s the Machiavellian plot to destroy Alex Salmond. Back stabbing? Check. Smearing? Check. Blackballing? Check. Retrospective rule changes designed to ensnare? Check. And of course, we all know, but cannot say, (yet) that the conspiracy against Alex Salmond is going to take us to a more sinister and darker place.

      Then there’s our own Rev Stu, and the YES campaign robbed of it’s social media shock-jock because the Wokists didn’t like his attempts to expose their infiltration of the Independence cause.

      And then there’s the Dani Garavelli ‘curiosity’, the Tortoise connection to attempt to salvage and rehabilitate the smear gone wrong of Alex Salmond, who is suddenly the BritNat media’s darling, and then getting birthday interviews with Nicola Sturgeon before forming a BBC tag team to have another go at the character assassination of Alex Salmond.

      Alarm! Alarm! Alarm! Scotland!

      One story behind Scotland adopting the Scots Thistle as it’s national emblem is a story that a contingent of sleeping Scottish soldiers were oblivious to an attack sneaking up on their position, until one of the attackers was pricked by a thistle and his gasp of discomfort, (which surely every one of us can relate to), was overheard by an alert sentry who raised the alarm and alerted the camp to raise it’s defences.

      Well, Scotland needs to listen to the alarm which Rev Stu, (and others too it must be said), but I’m not sure there’s anyone who’s done more to join the dots and see the holistic picture emerge of an orchestrated and determined infiltration of the SNP to displace Scottish Independence as it’s core belief and raison d’être, and supplant it with a toxic agenda of misogyny, science denial, deconstruction of women’s rights, and Orwellian thought-crime legislation and sinister autocracy.

      It cannot be accidental that the same orchestrated toxicity is everywhere you look in the disgraceful conspiracy of Alex Salmond, and attempted ostracism of Joanna Cherry.

      The “Way of the Woke” is not a minority interest securing power and influence above it’s station. The Way of the Woke is an orchestrated campaign to disrupt the Scottish Independence movement, rob it of leadership, deny the movement of clear objectives, and bloat it’s committees and steering groups with wafflers, disrupters, and divisive elements which choke the capacity of a movement to make any progressive decision.

      Wake up Scotland. The Way of the Woke is not a crackpot tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but a textbook example of how MI5 would orchestrate the insurrection of a government that was hostile to British Interests. That’s not an exaggeration, there is literally a text book with paper pages which spells out those objectives. I had a link to the very page, but I’ve lost it. (Somebody will have it).

      Ask yourself whether Scotland’s path towards Independence has been disrupted, and our leadership rendered dysfunctional. Don’t look at the Wokist’s themselves. They are just the dumb pawns in the game. (They’re actually the expendable raw meat which would be thrown to the wolves to render the SNP unelectable). It’s the strategic coordination, and the unseen forces which have steered their progression which need the closest possible scrutiny.

      To save itself, and it’s part in Scotland’s Independence story, the SNP need’s a purge of McCarthyite proportion and an emergency audit of the damage which has been done. And it needs done fast, to be concluded long before these Wokists are elected to Holyrood. Do it before December, and maybe we have a last gasp chance to wreck Brexit.

      As for the rest of us, maybe we should listen to the Hong Kong strategists… be water. Be fluid. Don’t fix ourselves to anything our enemies can use against us. If we need radical changes to the SNP, be ready for it. If we can resurrect the SNP to the force it was back in 2015-16, be ready for it. But if we must ‘do this’ without the SNP, then friends, we must be ready for that too.

      The BritNats must be content with their insurrection and disruption of our cause, and be content their plans are well rooted and on course. Alec Salmond’s verdict was their only hiccup in a broadly successful exercise, but Scottish Independence under Sturgeon’s SNP is effectively nullified as a threat. The Union was never more imperilled that by the Constitutional ramifications of Brexit, but with Sturgeon’s help, their crisis was averted, to Scotland’s cost naturally. It kills me saying so, but we will NEVER have such opportunity again.

      If we intend to send them homewards, tae think again, we need to do it soon, because they will get stronger while we get weaker. We can no longer draw sustenance from Europe. That’s on your head Nicola Sturgeon. It didn’t have to be this way.

    243. mike cassidy says:

      Kirstein Rummery is quoted as saying this

      After the trial

      Kirstein Rummery of Stirling University suggested that understanding the terrible conviction rates in rape and sexual abuse cases might help. ‘Rape conviction rates in Scotland are 39%. 98% of cases of violence against women and girls don’t even get to court’ she noted, stating that the ‘Alex Salmond trial didn’t meet the burden of proof required by a criminal court – as 61% of cases don’t. That doesn’t mean [that] 61% of women are lying

      http://archive.is/XmcR2

    244. mike cassidy says:

      Kirstein Rummery is quoted as saying this

      After the trial

      Kirstein Rummery of Stirling University suggested that understanding the terrible conviction rates in r**e and se**al abuse cases might help. ‘R**e conviction rates in Scotland are 39%. 98% of cases of violence against women and girls don’t even get to court’ she noted, stating that the ‘Alex Salmond trial didn’t meet the burden of proof required by a criminal court – as 61% of cases don’t. That doesn’t mean [that] 61% of women are lying

      http://archive.is/XmcR2

    245. Effijy says:

      Just over £25,000 required for target with only 18 days remaining.
      We can’t be seen to fail on this as it’s the type of money makes for
      A one hour babble at JCB’s HQ.

      Every Fiver Counts!

      https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/pas30/

    246. jfngw says:

      @Rev Stu

      You are correct only 32 names are listed on the web page, it also mentions at the bottom that there are parliamentary and associate member groups who attend. What I don’t know is if the same person attends from these group or someone is just nominated to go, it should list the groups in that case. Being kind it could just be the web page editor was too lazy to find out.

      Of your list it seems to be the bottom 10 that are missing, three are politicians from WM, HR & local councils. The other seven look to be from minority groups, not sure why these groups should be on the NEC and have voting rights over candidates.

    247. Juteman says:

      I see New Zealand have postponed their General Election because of a Covid outbreak.
      Could that happen here?

    248. Lothianlad says:

      At Breeks

      ‘see the holistic picture emerge of an orchestrated and determined infiltration of the SNP to displace Scottish Independence as it’s core belief and raison d’être’,

      Yes breeks. Correct in every word.

      I’ve been saying for ages that the british secret service have infiltrated and are influencing the parties direction at the top.

      Not all in the SNP and SG are spooks, but many high profile figures certainly seem to be controlled by the brit state!

    249. Robert Graham says:

      o/t Apologies

      Even Disney isn’t safe from interference from those people who are pushing their view of the world
      Now it seems to be acceptable to include a bisexual character into a Children’s Cartoon ,
      just think of that for a moment adolescent and adult sexual traits and preferences intentionally introduced to children who are not developed enough to appreciate what is being pushed on them
      For years now concerned parents have been fighting a loosing battle against the introduction of Adult themed clothing into children’s range of clothing and being pushed by some very dubious characters in the pursuit of the quick buck and to hell with the considerable consequences ,
      these people are relentless in the many ways they try to get round any and every safeguard introduced to protect children, these individuals don’t just have to be stopped they need to be removed from society because they won’t give up until normal adults make them this push to have their views recognised are dangerous ,

    250. Fionan says:

      OT Just got an electoral register letter through post today, they must be updating the register. Under Nationality, they have entered ‘british’. I am furious that their attempts to ‘britify’ Scots is creeping into all these official documents. I am returning the form as incorrect, pointing out that ‘britain’ is not a nation it is a state, and I was born into the Scottish nation therefore I hold Scottish nationality. I hope many people reply to these ignorant britifiers to put them right – they are using every means possible to smother any Scottish identity, and if we dont fight them at this, they will succeed as future generations assimilate the message that they are ‘british nationality’.

    251. Big Jock says:

      Lothian – I agree there will be agents in the SNP operating against independence. Their objective will be to leak stories to the press which are to smear the party and membership.

      The other objective will be the concern trolls and the like. Has it reached the level of MSP’s and MP’s? Not in person , but certain MP’s are being guided by agents in the party , who may indeed be operatives of the state.

      Very difficult to prove, but only a naive fool would think the British weren’t doing this. After all technically the SNP are the enemy of the State. They want to break up England’s cosy empire. The fact that the people have now moved against the State. Means that agents will now be targeting every supporter of independence.

      Boris is seeing how long he can hold off agreeing to a Section 30. He was probably expecting something to happen. For plan B to be triggered. He probably couldn’t believe his luck when Sturgeon handed him Scottish sovereignty on a plate!

      We all know who we suspect of being enemies of the independence movement within the party. We can’t name them but it’s obvious by their actions.

      Salmond was removed by people in the party!

    252. mike cassidy says:

      Probably not coincidence this appears today in the Herald

      Salmond era officials worked in ‘culture of fear’ due to ‘bullying’

      But it does contain the gem that the union representing senior civil servants supported Leslie Evans after the fiasco of the judicial review case

      A wee boy in Human Resources did it and ran away

      http://archive.is/ZsWOF

    253. holymacmoses says:

      twathater:3.25: thoroughly subscribe to your sentiments and do hope that Mr and Mrs Salmond read these messages.
      Breeks 9.37: I totally agree with what you write and am minded of Blake’s poem

      THE SICK THISTLES

      O SNP/NEC thou art sick.
      The invisible worm,
      That flies in the night
      In the howling storm:
      Has found out thy bed
      Of crimson joy:
      And his dark secret love
      Does thy life destroy.

      I may write lightly of such things at times but I don’t take their threat to Scottish Independence lightly at all.
      Nicola Sturgeon has produced an inward looking, narrow minded, self-seeking, self-indulgent petty, parochial party and that won’t do for a nation which wishes to put more and more big ideas out into the world as an Independent source of creativity and invention.

      Lastly, the BBC *mocumentary* of Mr Salmond’s trial: Kirstein Rummery says that they were ALL interviewed before the trial started. Kirsty Wark says that she spoke to 5 of the complainants.
      Would it have ben legal for the BBC to interview witnesses etc BEFORE a trial as even begun? Just asking:-)

    254. Ron Maclean says:

      From the SNP Constitution:

      s31.4 The National Executive Committee is composed of:

      (a) The National Office bearers (14)
      (b) Two ordinary members elected by Annual National Conference, who are parliamentarians
      (c) Sixteen regional members elected by Annual National Conference who are not parliamentarians
      (d) A member representing each of the Party’s parliamentary groups
      (e) A member representing the Association of Nationalist Councillors
      (f) A member representing each Affiliated Organisation

    255. iain mhor says:

      @ crazycat 12:09am

      You are right and I wasn’t that clear; the List indeed isn’t secret. However, you won’t find the names on the ballot and you will have to look for the List.
      Maybe not very far granted; but there is a large tranche of electorate who won’t, or don’t for whatever reason – happy to just vote ‘Party X’ and then be outraged at the Bam they’re landed with later. Yes, I know, but they still do.

      For an Open List:
      The voter gets to see the Bams at the ballot, without the need to look for, or remember a published list.
      The voter personally decides their preferred candidate order – the Bam doesn’t get in.
      The voter decides they are all Bams and doesn’t vote.
      The voter decides that maybe a Party where the choices are all Bams, is perhaps not the Party for them anymore and switches vote.

      All I’m calling for is to see ‘Bams at the Ballot’ – an Open List system and I can decide – I get to ‘vet’ them.

    256. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Yes Iain Mohr. I think there’s a few bams to sift through this time in various wards.

      Remember even Velma(fm scooby doo) was even surprised she got in 2016. Maybe she didn’t even know she was on it? Her OO pals stuck her there when they saw her orange jumper!.

    257. ian stewart says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      16 August, 2020 at 4:12 pm
      “In reading the NEC list, one name appears from my days in my (then) local branch. The individual concerned was as sharp as a beach ball back then (shaped like one too) – I doubt anything much has changed.”

      Spill! ?

      From my time in the Donside branch. I’d bet upwards of a billion pounds the beach ball in question is Josh Mennie.

    258. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      You’re a little on the dim side, aren’t you, Linda?

      “Its worth noting that the NEC has had changes since the James Doran and first JC vote. If you are going to try give information for background, give the full background.”

      The article clearly states that the NEC has changed since the vote. It notes that Ruth Maguire is a new member who was not a member at that meeting. (She replaced Clare Adamson.)

      “Also, being vetted is a process that must be undertook, we don’t know why JC was rejected at vetting.”

      Joanna Cherry was NOT rejected at vetting. She passed and was recommended as the candidate, but a narrow majority of the NEC voted against her. This is not enough under party rules to reverse the recommendation, as a two-thirds majority is required, so she got the nomination and won the seat on a huge swing.

      “You all can’t simply say the wokies should not pass vetting just because you don’t like them”

      Well, in fact I could say that if I liked – it’s my website – but the article makes absolutely no such suggestion and nor does the quote from our source.

      “The lack of impartiality here is shocking.”

      When have I ever claimed to be impartial? I’ve pointed out time and time again that Wings is biased, we’re just open about our biases.

      Now bugger off, you silly little wokechild.

    259. Tackety Beets says:

      Apologies, I have not read the full thread.

      As Doug Daniel was a large contributor to this parish, altho’ not since a year or two, I wonder Rev, is there any mileage in asking him for a post explaining exactly what it is I should understand.

      I assume there are many who either like me avoid the subject or just see it as a crazy policy.

      I assume that if DD is pro GRA etc he must have it thought out & SHOULD be able to explain what we are “not seeing” ?

      As we all know there are 2 sides to everything.

      Meantime I fail to see it in the same light as DD etc and for as long as I fail to see/understand what they see I will always be against it & will really struggle to support SNP

      Over to you Doug.

    260. Stuart MacKay says:

      Another good post from Iain Lawson, https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2020/08/17/the-trial-of-alex-salmond-bbc-2/

      Not long now before the breathlessly optimistic pro-SNP and independence bloggers will start to look like they’re out of touch.

    261. crazycat says:

      @ iain mhor at 11.20

      Yes, there are indeed people who wouldn’t bother looking for the list (or even realize that it might exist, perhaps), just as there are people who vote, but never bother to find out who won!

      An open list would be a great improvement.

    262. Lothianlad says:

      Big jock,

      You are 100% correct correct sir!

    263. CameronB Brodie says:

      Polly
      Thanks for taking an interest. You may have a point but I’m afraid I’m too rusty to critically justify specific teaching practices, that are aimed at resisting neo-liberalism’s destruction of equity, diversity, and inclusivity.

      Being and Becoming Woke in Teacher Education
      https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/pandpr/index.php/pandpr/article/view/29399

    264. Gavin Williamson says:

      What a load of twaddle
      Membership of NEC is listed on the my.snp website, but you have to be a member to see it.

    265. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Membership of NEC is listed on the my.snp website, but you have to be a member to see it.”

      For the third time for those too fucking lazy to read properly: no, it isn’t. You get 31 of the 42 members.

    266. Kenneth G Coutts says:

      Strewth! What a mess.
      I hope we can get it sorted.
      Why should anybody vote for a branch office party.
      That’s just going back the way.
      In addition , just like the English huge changes needed down their ( England) politically, yet what do they vote for?
      The same old same old and worse.
      We all know they are English state owned parties now, with no moral compass, compassion or political competence.
      ??

    267. scottish skier says:

      As you say, 3/4 of NEC members are listed on my.snp, with a note about the origins of the small remainder.

      There’s also full NEC list on Wiki.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Party#National_Executive_Committee

      Doesn’t seem particularly davinci code esq.

      Some folk I generally agree with, some I don’t much at all. Ergo, not ‘cult-like’.

      Quite the contrast to this new list indy party, which I can’t find any information on at all. All smoke and mirrors. 😉

      TBH, jock public couldn’t give a rat’s ass who is on party NECs. They care more about who is in parliament, notably the cabinet, and what policies they are pushing through.

    268. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “There’s also full NEC list on Wiki.”

      Yes, there is, since yesterday. Where do you think it came from? ?

    269. scottish skier says:

      “Yes, there is, since yesterday. Where do you think it came from?”

      From at least two weeks ago rather than yesterday.

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/08/its-time-to-democratise-snps-nec.html?showComment=1596532862022&m=1#c172441605623821770

    270. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rev Stu.

      LOL! Yir jist a wee divil, iye?

      8=)

    271. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “From at least two weeks ago rather than yesterday.”

      Jesus, read the Wiki edit history you twat. And for the fourth or fifth time, THERE ARE 42 MEMBERS OF THE NEC NOT 32. You missed 10. The 10 revealed publicly for the first time in this post.

    272. scottish skier says:

      Fair enough. It was late. I hold my hands up!

      The 10 fall under the stated (mysnp):

      “Representatives from the Parliamentary Groups, the Association of Nationalist Councillors and Affiliated Organisations also sit on the National Executive Committee.”

      Don’t seem particularly interesting though; just minor reps from affiliated orgs.

      Chris Law MP? Jamie Szymkowiak (Disabled Members group)? Julia Stachurska (SNP Students)? Vladimir Putin (KGB for Indy)? Are these names that should chill to the bone?

      I can’t see issues here unless someone had personal beef with them of something.

      As I noted, voters don’t give a shit about NECs. The SNPs seems bulky and from what I understand, could do with improvement in structure / accountability.

      However, it’s not the illuminati, and if folk don’t like the actions of the parliamentary party (which is what matters), they can vote differently.

      As things stand, the SNP are way more trusted/transparent than e.g. this new pro-indy list party people are being told to vote for instead, and that will govern who gets votes.

      Which was my main point.

    273. Dogbiscuit says:

      A secret politburo. No surprises anymore.

    274. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I can’t see issues here unless someone had personal beef with them of something.”

      Their individual qualities are not, in this case, the issue. We’re talking about almost a quarter of the total votes on the NEC being held by people whose identities were unknown until we published them.



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