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Anatomy Of A Thicko

Posted on October 04, 2018 by

For our money – and by an admittely wafer-thin margin over the likes of Annie Wells, Miles BriggsAlex Cole-Hamilton and James Kelly – Tory list MSP Jamie Greene is still the lowest-watt bulb in the Scottish Parliament’s festival of lights.

(Our alerter readers may have spotted that that’s an official watermarked Scottish Conservatives pic, so that’s them making him look as intelligent as they can.)

But being really properly brainless isn’t just a matter of not knowing which powers are devolved before you attack the Scottish Government for your own UK administration’s failings or not being able to do basic arithmetic.

To stand out as especially doltish in a group of epic dolts like the current Tory cohort in Holyrood, you also need to be incapable of following simple logical trains of thought. So let’s see if we can illustrate with a topical example.

Last night it was announced that snagging works on the Queensferry Crossing will take a few months longer than originally planned, resulting in occasional night-time lane closures, all of them at times when traffic is light and one lane each way will be plenty. Greene, though, was quick to pipe up with an outraged quote:

Let’s just break that comment down. He’s complaining that the bridge was opened “prematurely”. That can only mean he thinks it shouldn’t have been opened until every last nut and bolt was polished and painted to perfection, which we now know means next summer, two years after the actual opening.

What would have happened in the meantime? Drivers would have had to continue to use the existing road bridge, which would have meant not only considerably more congestion (since it would have had to carry the traffic currently spread between two bridges) but also considerably more frequent TOTAL closures – not just off-peak lane reductions – because the existing road bridge has no wind shielding.

In the last month alone, Storm Ali saw the original road bridge completely closed for large parts of two full days, and restricted the rest of the time, while the Queensferry Crossing continued almost unaffected.

So if Jamie Greene was in charge of transport in Scotland – and remember he’s the man the Tories say would be the Transport Minister if they were the Scottish Government – then he’d have kept it closed unnecessarily for two full years and condemned commuters to vast amounts of disruption and delay for all that time, just in order to avoid the NO disruption and delay that will be caused by the snagging work.

To be that dim is one thing. To so regularly and willingly parade that dimness in front of the electorate is the mark of a special talent, and – unlike Jamie Greene – we’re sure you all know which usage of the word “special” that is.

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93 to “Anatomy Of A Thicko”

  1. bobajock

    Tim nice but dim … was nice at least.

    Its this level of stupidity that makes me rage about the list system most. Its not only Tories – but I understand that.

    Change via independence might fix that.

  2. A Bruce

    Dearie me!

    They are frightening. To think we pay them £60,000 to be that stupid and parade it for all to see and hear.

  3. Breeks

    Did the Tories say he’d be Transport Minister or actually tell him to go play in the traffic?

  4. Giving Goose

    Jamie (Dim) British-Johnny FKA Green.

  5. Ken500

    How much more of these lunatics can people stomach. Even trying to take a step back people are confronted by this lunacy. Why, oh why do people vote for Tory/Unionists, especially in Scotland. Or not vote at all. Although some have no one credible for their vote. The cesspit. The rest of the unionists ‘politicians’ are not much better. How can they carry on like this.

    For goodness sake just go out and vote SNP/SNP st every opportunity. It is the only way to try and stop this lunacy and stand up for Scotland.

    The only way left is to sue the bastards. Maybe that will stop them telling lies. Debatable.

    Good luck and thanks to the marchers on Saturday.

  6. Alan Mackintosh

    Typo in first line “admittedly “

  7. SandyW

    If you put two Furby toys together, they ‘teach’ each other to speak a kind of gibberish.

    Science should investigate what happens if ‘Annie Wells, Miles Briggs, Alex Cole-Hamilton and James Kelly and Tory list MSP Jamie Greene’ are put together in a sound proof room together.

  8. Iain

    Rhoda Grant is a strong contender for the list, too. Ready with a knee-jerk agreement with any allegation that something’s gone wrong, her grasp of life is well illustrated by her suggestion that the internet should be subject to a 9.00 pm watershed.

  9. Iain mhor

    @Breeks 11:55
    Aaaargh all doon ma clean shirt!

  10. HandandShrimp

    The fact that the new bridge is an absolute beauty that is winning plaudits around the world sticks in the Tories’ craw like cold porridge. If they had been in charge it would not have been built because they simply have no vision beyond gruel and stale water for the plebs.

    I would also point out that the term painting the Forth Bridge is an expression in common usage to illustrate a never ending task. Using Jamie’ Green’s logic the forth rail bridge was opened 130 years prematurely.

    Jamie is our local list MP and in thick with the local paper, he merely has to given them his laundry list and they will publish it. The joy of this is that time and time again he is revealed to be, as Father Ted might say, “an awful eedjit”.

  11. Fred

    Another moose-cranium it seems!

  12. Ottomanboi

    One of Ruth’s school of ’remedials’. Says little good about the people who put these dimsters into Holyrood.

  13. DavidJ

    All this for an increased expenses claim of over 400% on his, already quite sizeable, claim from last year.

    Of course, you have to read to the very bottom of the story to see that.

  14. Mike Lothian

    He is cute though…

    … though looks a bit like Pob in that photo

  15. David

    Thanks Stu.

    Are there any other awards to be announced? Biggest liar? Best Comedian? Top MSP/MP parties wish they had never endorsed? Best Unionist asset for Yes? Perhaps you can spend a few pennies and send each winner a trophy.

  16. CameronB Brodie

    Tories tend to be skeptical, even hostile, towards intellectual reasoning, for a number of reasons. For example, Tories rely on tradition as a guide to decision making, scientific evidence, not so much. Neurophysiology’s also suggests that socially conservative right-wingers lack the grey matter needed for genuine human empathy (see the PM’s entrance to her Tory conference speech). Ideologically, Tories are stuck in the 19th century and chauvinistic right-mindedness* tends to dull the critical faculties.

    * a belief that financial success indicates one’s superior intelligence and moral probity.

    Why the Conservatives struggle with empathy
    The ‘nasty party’ tag will stick until the Conservatives reject making moral judgements about poorer members of society

    Carolyn Pedwell on empathy, accuracy and transnational politics

    Empathy as an emotional practice in historical pedagogy

  17. Mike McC

    Sorry about the relevance content of the post but this is a MUST READ!
    Arthur Herman – How the Scots Invented the Modern World:The True Story of How Western Europe’s Poorest Nation Created Our World and Everything in it.
    Who formed the first literate society?
    Who invented our modern ideas of democracy and free market capitalism?
    The Scots.
    As historian and author Arthur Herman reveals, in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries Scotland made crucial contributions to science, philosophy, literature, education, medicine, commerce, and politics—contributions that have formed and nurtured the modern West ever since.
    This book is not just about Scotland: it is an exciting account of the origins of the modern world.
    No one who takes this incredible historical trek will ever view the Scots—or the modern West—in the same way again.

  18. Ian Brotherhood

    How can we be sure he’s not ‘doing a Claudius’?

  19. Macart

    Oh Jings!

    It’s like they have a production line. 😮

  20. CameronB Brodie

    Ian Brotherhood
    Claudius accepted the mantle of fool but his critical wit was still in evidence. 😉

  21. Auld Rock

    Here’s a novel idea. Given the proven success of the wind shielding on the Queensferry Bridge a programme should urgently be put in place to investigate how our current ‘big bridges’ could have Queensferry style shielding ‘retro-fitted’ replacing any existing less effective shielding. Bridges I have in mind are, Kessock, Tay, Forth, Erskine and Skye bridges.

    As for Tory, Fiberals and Labour twats let them get on with their stupidity for they don’t seem to realise that everybody is laughing at them.

  22. Frank Gillougley

    Hopefully, without sounding like too much a pedant, the term ‘snagging’ in this instance is a complete misnomer (a lie) and is one used by anti-SG British Nationalist propagandists.

    The Scottish Government has always stressed the list of outstanding work refers to a range of tasks that have always been intended to be completed AFTER the route opened to traffic and was ‘practically’ complete i.e. so that it could be USED as a road bridge.

    Just another small but important example of the power of word-choice in the brainwashing of the electorate.

    I for one, think it is a magnificent shining symbol of the new Scotland – and that is what galls the dismal jimmies.

  23. stonefree

    Green is the half wit that said the Arran Ferry sailed from Ardrossan to Troon ( never going near Arran )
    Its good that the Tories IQ bye-pass has been such a success

  24. Clootie

    …I blame the Russians. This seems to be the answer to everything.

  25. Greannach

    Mike Lothan @ 12.39
    Jamie Green’s cute in the way that those gonks are that schoolgirls and Kezia Dugdale shove on to the end of their pencils. Actually in that photo Green looks as though Dugdale has just inserted her pencil.
    Meanwhile the fabulously dim Ross Thomson is puzzling over the answer to a magazine quiz:
    Q: What is the capital of France? Is it…
    A1. Paris
    A2. Jonathan Dimbleby
    A3. An orange.
    Thomson went for A4.

  26. Gary

    ‘It’s not what you say…’ On the same subject ie The Queensferry Crossing, the BBC had this to say (NB I’m paraphrasing) ‘The Queensferry crossing’s contracters announced they will require extra time for snagging NEARLY A YEAR AFTER IT OPENED’ However, later in the same report, rather quietly, they said that they required an additional MONTH over what had been scheduled.

    EVERY single piece of news is spun by these guys. A few months ago we had good news on expansion of the Scottish Roads Network to ease traffic and decrease travel times, also helping tourists get to destinations quicker and aid business BUT, this was reported as ‘Traffic Chaos for Scottish Road Users’

    For the BBC every silver lining has a cloud, well, if the SNP are involved anyway…

  27. Daisy Walker

    O/T Re legal access to Holyrood Park for AUOB.

    I’ve put a post over on the last article with some legal information re this.

    Can folks have a look and a wee think. Also can anyone advise what legal reason HES is claiming for stopping access? I’m not sure of that particular detail.

    Many thanks.

  28. Ken

    Tut tut! “Thicko”! Smacks of playground bullying. You’ll get sued by…somebody. I think the preferred phrase might be, educationally challenged, or even the old favourite, special needs.
    Mind you, looking at that photo, I can see why you might want to use this word.
    I can see why Tory and consanguinity might be used in the same sentence.

  29. Ken500

    No matter how much people try to step back for the sake of sanity. To see people smiling and jigging about glekedky, just infuriates people. Vulnerable people are being sanctioned and going to food banks for the sake of £20 a week. The wealthy are getting tax breaks.

    It is the unionist local authorities who are not funding education and essential services properly with the allocated funding. They gang up to keep the SNP out, although the SNP have the most candidates. Two jobs Tory keeping them in power. Getting their 2 free dinner nights out a week. Or unionist candidates being dragged from the street. Doing nothing but ruining the Scottish economy. Not paying their council tax on their castles. Or trying to gain favour projects illegally when in Gov.

    The unionist councils waste the public money on groteque monstrosity of no value. Unoccupied shops, offices and hotels (Muse £200Million) When there are already shops, offices sitting empty and hotels unoccupied. Then the unionist councils try and cut Education and essential service funding. Keeping class sizes too high. Using the statute limit (30) as the norm. Instead of keeping class sizes down. 100 teachers short in the local authority area.

    Some drug rehabilitated services where passed to the councils (social care funding) from NHS services. Where NHS proper total abstinence drink/drug funding was undertaken. The councils refuse to fund these services properly. So people who can afford to pay get help while others do not. Leading to poverty and deprivation. Although the Scottish Gov has finally brought in MUPricing to it’s credit. Young people are drinking less and leading healthier lifestyle. By taking advice.

    Aberdeen/shire Councils. Aberdeen £1.2Billion in debt. Borrowing like their is not tomorrow abd squandering it. Building a Conference Centre £300Million with no business case. Refused a gift of £80Million to predestriamise the City. Cost would have been £20Million by comparison. The Art Gallery shut for five years. Cost £30Million. £Millions more used for storage, Totally unnecessary. A bit of a revamp would have done.

    The Tory/LibDem Aberdeenshire. HQ worth £Billion for 70 councillors. Refuse to sell and build cheaper appropriate community HQ. Schools over crowded. Using the statue of limitation as the norm (30 pupils) instead of keeping class sizes down and also cutting additional needs teachers/facilities of the allocated funding. . A Tory councillor business getting LA contracts then overcharging. The local authority contracts going to Carillion (mark 2). The unionists PPI scandal bailed out with public money. All their cronies. May’s mate cutting additional needs services.

    Standard hotels in Edinburgh/Glasgow charging £300 a night during busy periods. Festival etc, Holidays, Inns etc. Then there are suggestions of a tourist tax. Get it off the (business) rates. The hard pressed punters being manipulated once again.

  30. Bob Mack

    I must admit Rev, he is certainly a candidate for the dimmest political light, however who can top Ed Milliband staying up all night to produce his Labour Commandments on a 10 ft stone tablet. Down fro the mountain that is Labour HQ.

    Still my favourite buffon.

  31. gus1940

    The Great Russian Hacking Scandal has been on the go for several years.

    Am I alone in being surprised that our pals across the pond have never been accused of hacking?

    Given that most of modern technology was invented in The US does anybody believe that they have not been using it to the full particularly in the realm of hacking?

  32. Dr Jim

    A dilemma for intelligent politicians:

    While there is no doubt Jamie Green and many others in his party and the Labour party at Holyrood are thicker than gone off mince they do however represent the even thicker people who voted for them or their parties, and if there’s one thing thick people don’t like is to be told that they’re thick because it inevitably leads those people out of anger to make even thicker defence of their thickness by continuing to vote for thick representation out of indignation at being called thick

    The dilemma for intelligent politicians is to appear more intelligent than their thick opposition without appearing condescending of their thickness or be perceived as smart alecs extracting the pish from the chosen selections of the thick voters who admire these thick politicians because they’re slightly more intelligent than themselves

    Donald Trump is a perfect example in America of appearing intelligent enough to represent the extremely dense in that country and they love him for it

    Political parties in the UK have always sought to keep the divide between the educated and the thick at the right balance for easy manipulation but here in Scotland that is being challenged by the SNP in their attempts to upskill education towards changing the voting patterns towards more engagement in the understanding of the folk who would keep the electorate thick and the SNP who would like the electorate to learn what the UK parties have always done and why, to keep them thick

    None of this is easy in a sceptical downtrodden country like Scotland who expect all politicians to be untrustworthy because they’re used to it, so how is it humanly possible the SNP can be different in a world where people who don’t trust politicians believe that the thick liars they’re used to voting for are telling the truth over the not thick ones who are being truthful

    Phew! that wasn’t easy

  33. manandboy

    Jamie Green MSP List is one of the new generation of Tory parliamentary politicians, chosen specifically because of their bottom-of-the-class status.

    Their hero is Boris Johnston who is a model Tory politician, raking it in while practicing buffoonery with people’s lives.
    Reputedly writing for The Telegraph, Boris is’paid’ £275,000.
    Anyone believing that will believe anything.

  34. Bob Mack

    Russian hacking? Does anyone know what GCHQ do with themselves all day, or do they only monitor others?

  35. orri

    Fuck me the boy knows fuck all.

    Some of the snagging will be due to the bridge settling.

    That means you won’t know where and what needs adjusting until it’s been used for a while.

    Which in turn means that it wouldn’t matter how long you waited before letting it be used it’s going to need some work after you do.

  36. Robert Peffers

    @Ken500 says: 4 October, 2018 at 11:58 am:

    ” … The only way left is to sue the bastards. Maybe that will stop them telling lies. Debatable.”

    Ach! Ken500, these numpties just don’t know what the truth is or isn’t. They just spout the mantra according to whatever they are told to chant by the combined unionist parties that comprise the Westminster Establishment.

    It really has never mattered which party is in power for the truth is the Westminster party system is only there to gull the electorate into voting for one of the Westminster unionist parties so as to snare voters from right across the political colour spectrum into believing they are voting for a party that supports their particular beliefs.

    Why would a commons MP worry whether they are in power or in opposition? Both lots get the same wages? Only the respective cabinet/shadow cabinet get extra for being in power. Rank & File MPs are just lobby fodder.

    You can see that when the division bell sounds and they all flood into the lobby to vote they are of no use during the actual debates – except to sit there like noddy dogs in car rear windows, while chuntering Here! Here! When what they really mean is, Where! Where! because they have no idea who is speaking at any particular time.

    Why else would it be commons protocol for the person the speaker has chosen to speak to stand up? Its to let the noddy dog lobby fodder know who to shout Here! Here! at.

  37. Liz g

    Daisy Walker @ 1.20
    It’s my understanding that Holyrood Park is classed as a Royal Park and has specific legislation that applies to it.
    A Scottish Minister has responsibility for it,and charges HES to manage it according to the rules and legislation that Holyrood has decided should apply…
    And by royal I mean the Scottish Crown which is part of our History even if we finnish up a republic!!

    So in short…
    Scottish rules.
    Written by Holyrood.
    For the protection of Scottish Historical Monuments.
    HES to manage the monuments according to Holyroods remit!

    And this is where we are ment to take some sort of stand?
    We the, Yes movement should be,respectful of these monuments and their care.
    But more than that …. We should be picking the right battles,and asking is this protest doing anything to get us out the Union..and if not then why are we doing it?

    And the real questions in this instance….how long have AUOB known they couldn’t have stalls ( they would have gotten a list of do’s and dont’s with the application form )and why didn’t they just reverse the march?
    …. The other park is public, it doesn’t risk opening the door to other political groups to use Holyrood park and doesn’t set the Yes movement against our own arrangements for the care of our own monuments!!
    This stinks of manipulation!!!

  38. Liz g

    Daisy Walker @1.20
    Sorry Daisy…. I didn’t actually answer your question.
    As I understand it..
    Events that can be demonstrated to be political are prohibited,from royal parks,the exchange of monies and staging being specifically named…but I think speaking from something mobile is permitted!
    Mad rules for a park I know….but they pre date 2014 for sure!
    Therefore not aimed at us!!

  39. Jon Drummond

    Which is why all Tory’s are prescribed slip-on shoes…

  40. Ken500

    150 million people have gone to self governance and Independence from the USSR. Since the 1990’s facilitated by Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Putin. While the West has only brought damage and destruction to the Russian borders and the rest of the world with the illegal wars. The USSR population has halved. Putin supported Scottish self determination/Ibdependence and called out Cameron’s lies.

    The Russian pro rata spend less on the military $69Billion. 150Million pop. They are spending money on their economy relieving poverty It has been reduced. That is why Putin is so popular in Russia. 80% ratings. Trying to improve the economy. All the West tries to do is sanction other countries to rebound and ruin the world economy. Although there is less need for nuclear energy with all the other better, cheaper sources.

    The Russian saved the West in the 11WW. 26million people died. 1/2Million in U.K./US and France. The lies Westminster tells are unbelievable. Trying to distract from their mess and total shambles. Putting sanctions on Russian and Iran just rebounds and affects the world economy. Boris Johnston has been at this nonsense trying to start anither war in Russian borders. This would have happened but Trump refused to go ahead.

    The US cannot afford their massive military bill.$622Billion 320Million pop. The third of all world spend. (36%). With the biggest world debt and inequality. The third of all the world military spending totally unaffordable.

    The Chinese yuan is now being accepted as a world tradable currency. Their economy is considered more stable. At present mainly US dollar. 20% Euro, 5% Sterling and 5% Japanese Yen. 1.5% Yuan. Another blow to the US economy. GCHQ and Pentagon illegally spying on the rest of the world.

    How a Labour member can understandedly resign. Without including any reference to the illegal wars and expense is surprising. Welcome all the same.

  41. Chris Whyte

    It’s not as if the dildo behind his left shoulder looks any smarter.

  42. galamcennalath

    Dimness is probably considered an essential qualification for these BritNat List MSPs.

    Heaven forbid they might have chosen politicians capable of thinking for themselves. They might look around themselves and come to some awkward and unpalatable conclusions about their so called Union!

  43. Ken500

    Edward Snowden, exposed US/UK hacking. Hacking each other countries interests and then if challenged denying all knowledge under oath. UK was recently hacking Denmark? Got found out, but still illegal and embarrassing. The illegal wars lies. Clegg and Cameron put robocops in to destroy the Guardian evidence and Mail room. Threatened the Editor who now works at Oxford University. Glen Greenwald printed relevations cut. So much for ‘freedom of speech’. The Murdoch accusations/allegations about to blow up again. Brooks etc lying under oath again.

    Johnston got sacked by Murdoch for telling lies. ‘Honour among thieves’? A habitual liar with a questionable private life. Criminal He would not last five minutes as PM but he will crash the economy trying. Self obsessed bastard.

  44. galamcennalath

    OT Canada+++ on the table. Tweet ….

    ” Donald Tusk
    From the very beginning, the EU offer has been a Canada+++ deal. Much further-reaching on trade, internal security and foreign policy cooperation. This is a true measure of respect. And this offer remains in place. #brexit “

    Press release ….

    In most respects, nothing new. However at list late stage I expect this is what the Tories can expect, given their red lines against anything better.

    Unacceptably hard for Scotland.

  45. Al Dossary

    The UK snooped on US citizens on an industrial scale prior to 9/11. Just as the US snooped on British citizens.

    Why? Because both countries had laws preventing them from snooping on their own citizens indiscriminately. Nothing to prevent them snooping on another countries’ people’s though……..

    And don’t even start me about hackers – the Israeli’s are the world experts at that. Stuxnet and Shamoon prove that !

  46. Daisy Walker

    Hello Lizg,

    I’m going out shortly so this will be my last post for a few hours (so when I don’t respond initially that’s the reason;)

    Thanks for your obvious care and knowledge re HES premises, and your concerns by it being misused by other political groups with not such a nice reputation as the YES Movement.

    I believe Holyrood park – regardless of its status as Crown Property – is not exempt from Scottish Law with regards Rights of Access (commonly referred to as Right to Roam), both in historic law, and statutory law – The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003.

    I set out the parts of the legislation for the reasons why on the last thread.

    I believe this Right is absolutely worth standing up for. I also believe that there are and there will be times and events whereby an organisation like HES can and should be able to apply in a legal manner to have access restricted. The Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 lists some examples.

    What I was trying to find out regarding Saturday’s march. Is access being denied, in full, in part? Or is it only stalls being set up that is being prohibited.

    By what legal process, and to which legal body (Scot Gov or Local Authority?) has HES applied, or indicated it is applying restrictions?

    Specifically what piece of legislation are they using to stop access. Does anyone have this information?

    (This information is important – because given their official capacity – the onus is on them to physically Produce this, the onus is on them to apply for the legal prohibition). Where lawful public access is being denied or restricted, the public has a lawful right to know by what legal means this is being implemented and to which legal authority they can appeal to.

    The organisation cannot just rely on their internal rules and regulations if they are abusing the public of their legal rights.

    For everyone’s information – where the 4 conditions are met that prove a Right of Access exists. (see other thread for details) Then it exists!

    It exists with or without any court document certifying its existence. If the matter is challenged in court and the 4 conditions met – A court can only provide a declaration that it exists, not create the existence.

    From what I could see from their press release, HES intend to allow use of the roadways going through the park only. I also read, but don’t know if true, that temporary fencing is being put up round the park to stop entry to the park.

    For obvious reasons, different rules apply to public/historic buildings – so, rightly or wrongly there is not such a potentially strong legal argument with regards the 500 miles walkers at Stirling Castle. Frustrating though that might be.

    Please see my comment on the last thread, it laid out the legislation/requirements in more details.

    I hope the above is of assistance. Kind regards to all.

  47. Thepnr

    Don’t know much about Jamie Greene so I had to look him up on Wiki. Was surprised to find that before filling the transport role for the Tories he was…

    “the Scottish Conservative spokesperson for technology, connectivity and the digital economy as well as digital broadcasting.”

    That’s just what we need someone as dim as a 40 watt bulb to be in charge in Scotland of technology and the digital economy.

    Even better then to read of his gormless friend (I assume) that is pictured behind him when he sat as an MSP before becoming an MP and worshipper of all things Boris.

    Ross Thomson when in Holyrood I was more than surprised to find was the chosen spokesperson for the Tories on…

    “Further Education, Higher Education and Science, and sat on the Education and Skills Committee.”

    What can I say?

    Dumb and dumber comes to mind, but Thomson in charge of Education in Scotland really doesn’t bear thinking about.

    @Daisy Walker

    I put my thoughts on your post on the old thread.

  48. Nana


    On todays Tusk/ Vardakar meeting Two video clips within the link

    watch here

  49. Cubby

    Dr Jim @1.39pm

    Well that was a very interesting read. Might have to read it again – or is that me admitting I’m one of the thick as mince crowd.

  50. Ottomanboi

    Because England, with Brexit, will psychologically take a giant leap back into its mythologised Victorian past, we can all see the nostalgic signs already, the Great Game with Russia may be set for a replay. The first round ended in stalemate, although Russia, in Central Asia and Afghanistan, got very close to its Indian target.
    The Russians are fully aware of England’s colonial grip on Scotland and the fact that many Scots strongly resent it. Will the new North West Frontier be on England’s, rather than India’s, border?
    The prancing, ‘away with the fairies’ Tories deserve nothing better. Alas there would be no Kipling to romanticise the events. Plain tales from Dumfries and Galloway….think not.

  51. Petra

    @ Daisy …. “Holyrood Park.”

    I posted this previously, Daisy. Here it is again. Statement on Holyrood Park.

    AUOB should have done their homework and submitted an application for stalls and a stage months ago. It stands to reason that there are numerous issues to consider when a crowd of upwards of 30,000 people could be converging on Holyrood Park, not least of all health and safety issues. Committees (and theirs seems to encompass individuals with appropriate credentials) are set up to consider all angles and all requests. Rules and regulations have to be adhered to and if not the Independence movement could be seen to be descending down the slippery slope to mob rule.

    The ins and outs of the HES decision can be analysed and contested, if need be, at a later date. Right now, with two days to go, our focus, imo, should be on being involved in a peaceful march devoid of the protests that have been mentioned previously. If not we’re being played to some effect by the Unionists … all rubbing their hands in glee and maybe, just maybe, making their own plans for Saturday.

  52. Thepnr


    Tusk couldn’t have spelt out the reality for the UK any clearer, straight talking is what is needed now. Brilliant link and an absolutely must watch for anyone concerned by Brexit.

    Don’t expect to see this on BBC Reporting Scotland so you need to watch it now as it couldn’t be any clearer as to what the EU are seeking and offering. Suck it up May.

  53. sassenach

    It seems the ‘wind deflectors’ on the bridge do a great job, could we crowdfund one being built round the Tory seats in the Chamber at Holyrood?

  54. Nana


    It’s the best link I could find, I’m looking at several sites and tweeters talking about the meeting but that clip of Tusk is the best I’ve seen. Couldn’t have spelt it out any clearer even for the dummies in the Tory party.

    Gala has posted the consilium link at 2.46 and here’s two more articles covering the talks

  55. Hamish100

    I think Green is still recovering from his wine tasting trip to Israel. No jobs to Ayrshire mind you.

  56. CameronB Brodie

    Dr Jim
    Taking the piss, me? I’m being deadly serious mate. 😉

    Thick Ethical Concepts

    Evaluative terms and concepts are often divided into “thin” and “thick”. We don’t evaluate actions and persons merely as good or bad, or right or wrong, but also as kind, courageous, tactful, selfish, boorish, and cruel. The latter are examples of thick concepts, the general class of which includes virtue and vice concepts such as GENEROUS and SELFISH, practical concepts such as SHREWD and IMPRUDENT, epistemic concepts such as OPEN-MINDED and GULLIBLE, and aesthetic concepts such as banal and gracious. These concepts stand in an intuitive contrast to those we typically express when we use thin terms such as right, bad, permissible, and ought. (Concepts are often regarded as non-linguistic representational items that can serve as the meanings of linguistic expressions and as constituents of propositions; terms are linguistic items that can be used to express concepts. The precise relation between concepts and language may be complicated, however. In what follows, small capitals denote concepts and italics denote terms.)

    Typically when someone calls an action bad, they evaluate it negatively without committing themselves to much if anything by way of non-evaluative description. This descriptive thinness of BAD makes it more general than SELFISH or CRUEL. Even if calling something selfish evaluates it as bad in some way or respect, not just any bad act can count as selfish; it must also involve the agent giving a certain degree of priority to herself over others. So the application of thick terms and concepts seems somehow to involve both evaluation and non-evaluative description….

  57. jfngw

    Oh! Ruth Davidson has an anonymous letter from a SNP supporter criticising the SNP. Anybody out there know any prolific letter writers that would want Ruth Davidson to have a letter for FMQ’s criticising the SNP.

    I’m afraid an anonymous letter has to treated with suspicion, especially the route it took.

    Also shocked to discover that Russian may be trying to hack into western systems, who would ever have thought this. Thank goodness we don’t try and hack soviet systems because that would be hypocritical. Not sure what they would achieve by hacking into testing centre system as presumably those who did the tests would remember the results even it they were changed, unless they also knock off the testers. Maybe they were interested to see if the results released to the world matched the test results held by the testing centre. Or am I becoming too cynical?

  58. galamcennalath


    Watched those two videos.

    What I felt, as I did, was …. President Tusk and Taoiseach Varadkar SPEAK FOR ME!

    Everything they say, every sentiment expressed, everything they stand for … THAT’S ME …. and I believe it represents most of the rest of Scotland.

    One thing is also for sure, no f’cking Tory every spoke for me, nor expressed any sentiment I could agree with!

    I feel nothing but anger about where Scotland now finds herself.

  59. Legerwood

    Holyrood Park and HES. Below is the statement in full from HES regarding access to the Park.

    Please note in particular para 2 – HES is NOT banning the marchers from the Park.

    It is the issue of stalls and staging that is the problem and A JOB, or factions within, seem to be making a meal of this for whatever reason or to what end is not clear but their approach, particularly inviting protests, is detrimental to the cause.

    “””We received an application from All Under One Banner for the use of Holyrood Park as part of their wider March for Independence event.

    “We want to make it clear that the march will still continue as planned through the road network within the Park between Horse Wynd through to Holyrood Gait. This has been facilitated by Historic Environment Scotland (HES) alongside Police Scotland and City of Edinburgh Council.

    “However, we have not granted permission for the set up of stalls, staging, branding and other static presence within Holyrood Park. As a non-departmental public body, HES must remain politically neutral at all times and we do not permit political events of any nature to take place within our Properties in Care.

    “The event organisers were made aware of our position on facilitating political events within our Properties in Care via the Events Planning and Operations Group (EPOG).”

    The EPOG is a multi-agency team made up of relevant City of Edinburgh Council services and the emergency services in conjunction with venue owners and managers, like HES, and event organisers. The make up of the group changes to fit each particular event it considers.””

  60. Bob Mack

    Tusk has just thrown a mine in front of Mrs May. He is proposing a Canada+++ deal which is being backed by Johnson Reese Mogg and Farage,

    It will however lead to a border in the Irish Sea as N Ireland would be treated differently.

    Will they sell out the DUP ?

  61. dakk

    Thanks for the Donald Tusk links.

    Though straight talking, Tusk was very conciliatory in tone, especially with his solidarity against Russia.

    This speech will have little impact on british nationalist’s Brexit deal beliefs imo.

    The dig at Russia will only fuel their imperial mindset,and strengthen their anti European xenophobia.

    Straight talking with some graphic threats is the only language these arrogant conmen will ever sit up and take notice of.

  62. Nana

    Thanks Gala, even better 🙂

  63. Davosa

    Another feckin Tory oxygen thief. There must be this conveyor belt endlessly supplying these fuckwits to Nazi HQ and Rape Clause then authorises them. They must scour educational establishments across the land finding the truly plankton level, sub-stupid IQs like Green, Thompson, Fraser etc., etc.,etc

  64. CameronB Brodie

    Seriously folks, thickness has an important role to play in society. 🙂

    Systematizing Thin and Thick Conceptions of the Rule of Law


    The literature teems with definitions of the rule of law, emphasizing attributes such as formal legality, democracy, checks and balances, individual rights, and order. In this article, we systematize these definitions in a unified typology which distinguishes between “thinner” (minimalist) and “thicker” (maximalist) conceptions of the rule of law. We first do this conceptually, advocating an analytical distinction between the shape (core), sanctions (control), source (consent), and substance (content) of the rules. These distinctions we order into a conceptual hierarchy, and we examine if this one-dimensional hierarchy is parallel to the empirical ordering of attributes.

    The analysis demonstrates that this is not the case. However, in light of recent writings on political regime change, the empirical hierarchy that does emerge makes theoretical sense. The consequent overview allows scholars to select more consciously between definitions of the rule of law, and, if robust, the empirical hierarchy can guide research into the correlates of the rule of law. But it also calls for further research into the causes and consequences of—and internal relationship between—the various attributes of rule of law.

  65. Gary45%

    Bon Dias Troops. Puzzled looks on the 2 miscreants’ faces, wee Jamesy boy getting asked how to spell his name, hence perplexed look, and Ross “FUD incarnate” thinking “I hope they don’t ask me, I was told this was easy money being a Tory MSP.” Scottish Tories making Trump look like a rocket scientist every day”. Have a great March in “Auld Reeckie” sorry we will miss it, watch out for the UJ arseholes.

  66. Les Wilson

    Just checking guys, for the march start on sat, Johnstone Ter? 1pm
    but where will the end actually be? Thanks in advance.

  67. Jason Smoothpiece

    Shadow Transport minister?

    I dont want to alarm anyone but this is a very serious case of Dunning Kruger.

    People in the East of Scotland should remain calm, lock doors and windows,ensure children and vulnerable people are in doors.

    This condition affects several members of the opposition it is likely to be resolved on independence.

  68. CameronB Brodie

    A bit O/T here but I’m really, really, seriously, serious.


    Rule of law: neither thin nor thick


    P.S. Do we have any constitutional or human rights lawyers in the house?

  69. ronnie anderson

    Marion Hailse Plunkett
    4 hrs

    Honestly!!! ? Who needs enemies when those who claim to be on “your side” are so adept at screwing all your hard work ???

    I don’t personally know Manny Singh…but his comments in the National are less than reassuring. HE IS RESPONSIBLE for the security of the march and the marchers… IT’S HIS JOB to ensure that no-one/group leaves the agreed route to create disruption elsewhere.

    The YES family has worked hard to maintain our friendly and open gatherings… working with local authorities and Police Scotland to ensure our events go off without confrontation with ANYONE.

    Now some wee cleek of impatient loudmouths are churning up calls for civil disruption and without a care for the consequences, promoting it as part of what has the potential to be the biggest physical gathering of pro-independence Scots in history ?

    Well sorry…but if anyone wants to be a dick and support this stupidity then they won’t be doing it in my name! This shite with HES is nothing new. They’ve been black-balling anything truly Scottish since they were established…and frankly… I expected as much from them given that they’re mostly run by non-Scottish royalists & unionists ?

    We are on the verge of independence. We will be taking control of our historic sites soon enough! Cancel your membership in the meantime… boycott HES properties after Saturday or even make a point of getting the family into the car in Yes t-shirts and flags and go pose at as many HES locations as you can but take a picnic and don’t give them a penny.

  70. Wullie B

    “So if Jamie Greene was in charge of transport in Scotland – and remember he’s the man the Tories say would be the Transport Minister if they were the Scottish Government – then he’d have kept it closed unnecessarily for two full years and condemned commuters to vast amounts of disruption and delay for all that time, just in order to avoid the NO disruption and delay that will be caused by the snagging work.”

    Only thing I can see wrong with your reasoning is this Stu, the Tories wouldnt have built the bridge seeing it as a waste of time and would have carried on until the moment the Forth Road Bridge collapsed into the water below with thousands of commuters drowning, then they sould have shouted SNbad for not telling them to buid a bridge while in opposition 😀

  71. ronnie anderson

    Note Manny Singh’s words

  72. Thepnr

    This is an excellent and well thought out article on the decision by HES not to allow facilities for speakers on the pro-Independence march in Edinburgh on Saturday

    “The people who work at HES know all this, and are certainly not guilty of political lenses in the way they explore and interpret their monuments. Which makes the current politicisation of heritage as a whole by HES hard to understand – for that is what they have unwittingly done…”

    How on earth have HES come to this place? They have rushed at an enemy which was never there, while simultaneously retreating behind denial and being wounded by inference, while people who had never even considered that HES were part of the political landscape look on in frank amazement. Worse, they have provided a new target for the vocal few ready for a fight, and as someone passionate about our heritage I wish with all my heart that they had not done so.

  73. CameronB Brodie

    re. HES, I would imagine the makeup of their senior personnel and figureheads, would give an indication of institutional outlook, if any.

    The Ethics of Cultural Heritage

    Do members of cultural groups have special claims to own or control the products of the cultures to which they belong? Is there something morally wrong with employing artistic styles that are distinctive of a culture to which you do not belong? What is the relationship between cultural heritage and group identity? Is there a coherent and morally acceptable sense of cultural group membership in the first place? Is there a universal human heritage to which everyone has a claim? Questions such as these concern the ethics of cultural heritage (or heritage ethics, for short). This entry seeks to provide an overview of the philosophical work on topics in heritage ethics, as well as introduce readers to some of the most philosophically relevant literature from other disciplines…..

  74. Gary45%

    Ronnie Anderson@5.24
    Well said Ronnie. I saw this situation on WoS at the weekend. Internet is a bit sparse here, so haven’t really followed the story. I can only speak for myself, but agree 100% with you, Ian Brotherhood and a few others on the Indy situation. Hope this makes sense.
    On a happy note. Most Tories here in Spain have No Idea who Ruth the mooth is.
    Happy days.

  75. Liz g

    Daisy Walker @ 3.12
    Hi Daisy,no worries if you don’t reply till later…
    If I don’t get of this bloody thing as well,I’ll no be organised enough to make the March..LOL..
    I’m in agreement with what Petra was saying @ 3.49,the ins and outs and the rights and wrongs of HES policy re. Royal Parks are something that may need addressed at some point
    But not right here not right now and not by Yes Scotland.
    We don’t yet know the motives behind this issue and as I’ve already said resolving it in our favour takes us not one bit closer to Indy!!
    As, as your post seems to indicate, HES rules are at odds with current legislation,about the right to roam,or as others have said freedom of expression then, yes a court should at some point rule on it and if necessary have HES change their rules!!
    But I’ll wager,although I have no way of knowing for sure,the Royal Parks will already be,or be found to be exempt,as will most HES & NT property.

    Nevertheless currently HES have rules in place to protect our Historic Monuments,rules that pre date even the 2014 campaign
    ( therefore were not written to damage our marches) and I’ll have no part in removing protection from our Historic Monuments.
    HES may very well be a Holyrood quango and have Unionists at the top…but opening up the park and other site’s to political movements doesn’t change that.
    Only Indy changes that!!
    Please think for a minute what they look after,do you really want OO march on Culloden… extreme example I know,and Culloden is National Trust property but as you seem to be sayin a right to roam is a right to roam,and there are footpaths through the moor!!

    We should,I think, stay away from HES property, AKA our heritage sites, and not open the door in a fight with the Scottish government to other campaigners… and just put a management change on our to do list!
    Our Enemies don’t work in HES
    Our Enemies work in SW1

  76. robertknight

    Chocolate tea pots – the lot of ’em!

  77. Petra

    The march is in two days time. Let’s focus on making it a joyous, trouble free event. The last thing we need now are troublemakers impacting negatively on the support that we need to get us over the line.

    We’ll be a free country in the very near future and can scrutinise ALL of these establishments / associations at our leisure. And rest assured we will.

  78. Legerwood

    Liz g @ 4 October, 2018 at 5:57 pm
    Daisy Walker @ 3.12

    HES are not stopping the March ending up in the Park as their statement makes clear. From the statement:

    “”“We want to make it clear that the march will still continue as planned through the road network within the Park between Horse Wynd through to Holyrood Gait. This has been facilitated by Historic Environment Scotland (HES) alongside Police Scotland and City of Edinburgh Council.””

    See my post at 4.41 for the full statement.

    It is the stalls and stage they have objected to.

    People seem to be blowing this out of all proportion to the extent that it is likely to cause really damage to the Independence movement and the very positive position this series of marches have achieved for the movement.

  79. Liz g

    Les Wilson @ 5.11
    It’s still ending at Holyrood Les
    We are still going through the park.
    It’s a Stage and the Stalls that are not allowed.

  80. Liz g

    Ledgerwood @ 6.12
    It’s ok Ledgerwood, Daisy and I already Knew the march was fine and that it was just the Stage and Stalls that were an issue.
    We were discussing the wider point about how sound the decision by HEA was in relation to the “right to roam” Laws.
    Daisy from our rights point of view and myself from a protect the sites point of view!
    But we both agree no matter what on Saturday (to coin a phrase) Peace Always..

  81. sandy

    Man I reiterate a previous post made some time ago with some additional points.
    ALL, & I mean ALL, candidates nominated to represent their respective political parties in our parliament have to undergo mandatory assessment. This should include a competent knowledge of Scottish history, geography, financial understanding, general economics, & above all, common sense.

    Most of list representatives are, to say the least, a bloody embarrassment. In Westminster, at least the nonentities, numpties, incompetents, call them what you may, can be absorbed into the mass of self-important individuals, as portrayed by the massive split in their selfish personal wants.

    Our electoral system HAS to change.

  82. Ghillie

    Anyone would surely struggle to find a negative spin for our amazing new bridge.

    And that laddie certainly looks like he would rather be somewhere else.

  83. Muscleguy

    My wife was coming back from Edinburgh during Storm Ali and I can confirm Queensferry was open albeit with a speed restriction and by looking at Traffic Scotland’s tweets etc I could tell the Tay Road Bridge was shut so she had to come via Perth and yes, the Friarton was dodgy as hell in the wind.

    Unfortunately the wind shielding is heavy overall so retrofitting it to existing bridges is pretty much a non starter unless there’s a major breakthrough in materials science. But Queensferry definitely proves its worth. Without my wife would have been detouring via Kincardine or even Sterling before QF was open.

    Scotgov played a blinder with it. It is gorgeous, impressive and functions perfectly. Now, if only everyone would realise it IS A MOTORWAY BRIDGE so STOP SLOWING TO 50 and holding every else up.

  84. yesindyref2

    Totally independently, just from quotes in or on the media, I have to concur totally with this article. I suspect he’s related to Mark Smith.

  85. DavidJ

    OOPS! Away up the list at 12.36pm. I meant to say, “an annual increase of over 400% more than the main protagonist in the story.” The SNP Bad stuff. I know what I mean :0) If you read the story you’ll see what I’m trying to say.

  86. Mike

    Problem is the opposition can be as thick dishonest corrupt vile hypocritical and obnoxious as they want because the media will polish turds to keep them from public scrutiny.
    The Scottish Government can be as clever inciteful honest compassionate industrious empathic and dutiful as is possible and still wont be given a microscopic flake of credit for their efforts.
    Its all down to promoted perception and as long as the opposition controls that they can do and say what they like while the Scottish Government can do no right by anybody.
    Its a truly sickening state of affairs and far too many people are still taking in by it.
    If the truth and actual facts were reported without embellishment or bias we would have been Independent since the 70s.
    Fucking heartbreaking actually.

  87. Daisy Walker

    Hello folks,

    I see from the latest thread there has been an update from HES and clarification that there will not be any restrictions of access (setting up of stalls is a different issue) to Holyrood Park.

    I’m very relieved. This was my concern.

    When you look at their initial statement, “We want to make it clear that the march will still continue as planned THROUGH THE ROAD NETWORK WITHIN THE PARK between Horse Wynd through to Holyrood Gait.’

    They were being extremely specific in designating areas for access. This of course left it open to interpretation, or misinterpretation. But being pedantic, the statement above meant they could have fenced off access to the park, but left the road network open only, which would have left no open space to congregate and socialise after the march.

    I apologise for being a bit pedantic about this, but sometimes it pays to be specific and read the fine print.

    With regards Crown Property… and access rights, legally the foreshore is owned by the Crown and in Scots Law the public have access. This does not automatically mean the foreshore is a ‘public place’, for it to qualify as that, there would need to be evidence of continued use, such as for fishing, bringing goods ashore, etc. There appears to be legal precedent that Crown Property is not automatically exempt from public access rights. In terms of Holyrood Park – from what I can see of the legal precedent, it is almost certainly a ‘public place’ and fully qualifies (in terms of the 4 criteria) for access rights.

    Anyway – looking forward to the march (and the picnic – who needs street parties when you can have picnics in the park) – piece and love.

  88. yesindyref2

    @Daisy Walker
    From the HES reply to The National it’s this is the operative legislation:

    The Holyrood Park Regulations 1971, as amended (the Regulations) set out acts which are prohibited within Holyrood Park, and acts requiring written permission from us

    It’s not online on so can’t check it out, but it looks like written permission was needed, and it seems also that a Better Together even was refused back in 2014.

    I think there’s been a bit of mischief-making on both sides, HES for not being clear we could walk over the Park, just not set up a stage and stalls – and AUOB and others for picking a fight when there wasn’t one to be picked.

    I’m there for the march – and my wee picnic in the park!

  89. Daisy Walker

    @ Yesindyref2

    That’s very interesting re 1971 legislation.

    In terms of setting up stalls and stages – it may well (probably does) cover that.

    In terms of rights of access/freedom to roam – I suspect it did not override this right, but was never challenged in court.

    Incidentally – as I stated earlier – if the right to roam exists, it exists. Any legal dispute or challenge about this at court, if the court finds in favour, all the court is doing is confirming its existence, not creating a certification of existence (if that makes sense). In other words, landowners cannot close off access, and demand you go to court and ‘prove or establish or get the court to issue a licence’ that the right of way is legal, before they will allow you access.

    In any event 1973 introduced land reform legislation on access rights, and The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 absolutely describes open park land and activities thereon – which fit the bill nicely for Holyrood Park, and provide access rights for the public.

    Where you say, ‘I think there’s been a bit of mischief-making on both sides, HES for not being clear we could walk over the Park, just not set up a stage and stalls – and AUOB and others for picking a fight when there wasn’t one to be picked.’

    You could well be correct. I’d suggest one of the best ways to stop mischief making is for people to know their rights, don’t you think.

    I certainly believe HES picked their words very carefully and my reading of their initial statement was that there would be no access for congregation to the park after the march (I don’t have an issue re the stalls and stage thing – that should have been arranged much earlier, and I rather approve of park management having the right to control that aspect – but not access).

    In any event – its sorted and clearer now.

    One last thing, I completely understand some people here were worried that issue was in some way ‘taking our eye of the ball’ and getting distracted. With the greatest respect, I disagree, land usage and land access is a fundamental issue in our country’s history, and in the way it has been governed – and the way some people would like to govern it in the future.

    The Right To Roam/access rights were an exceedingly important legally established right – in a very real ‘david and goliath’ challenge.

    It would be a crying shame if we were not to appreciate this and ‘give them away’ (all be it through the best of intentions) through a lack of knowledge.

    The National yesterday, challenged HES to clarify its position with regards Access Rights. I have no doubt this is the reason why clarification was forthcoming today that the park would not be closed off. (They appear to have a very poor case). HES will not want to go to court and have it publicly established that Holyrood Park is a ‘public place’, that access rights exist over it, and that it is fully covered by the Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 – legal clarity would mean they could not ‘be mischievous’ in the same way they have with us. Ambiguity plays right into their hands.

    Best wishes to all.

  90. Fred

    Good post Daisy!

  91. Foonurt

    Fuck me, whit wans yoan thicko.

    Tak ah luk ett yoan coopin, back richt. Iz Chris Whyte sid.

  92. yesindyref2

    @Daisy Walker
    Totally agree, and I think it’s worked out very nicely. The issue has been made public, there’s a complaint in to the Ministers which needs to be answered, AUOB have acted responsibly in using their influence to get the protest cancelled which reflects well on them, and as I’d guess HES have discretion to authorise stalls and a stage under that 1971 Act but chose not to, it’s all their fault! They took their time with the application and only said no on the 24th Sep, an unneccessary delay which could be seen to be deliberate. They cooked their own goose, and added salt to the wounds 🙂

    If they wanted to make up for it of course, and regain good will, they could provide free tea in the park for us walkers … even suggest a donation of 50p from the needy, £1 from the well off. I’d give 50p.

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