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Wings Over Scotland

Half the news fit to print

Posted on October 03, 2018 by

It’s probably time we started collecting all the media articles from the last couple of weeks about our ongoing legal battle with former Scottish Labour branch manager Kezia Dugdale, because it’s getting increasingly hard to plough through them all.

The story that Labour were pulling Dugdale’s legal funding was first broken by the Huffington Post on 19 September. Below is all the coverage we’ve found between then and now (most recent first). As best as we can recollect, incidentally, we’ve been asked for quotes for TWO of these stories.


Labour general secretary Jennie Formby to face MSPs in showdown over Dugdale row (Herald)


Leonard sacks rival by tweet in clearout of the moderates (Times)

Anas Sarwar and Jackie Baillie out in “chaotic” Scottish Labour reshuffle (Herald)

Scottish Labour leader sacks two MSPs in ‘purge’ reshuffle (Guardian)

Sarwar and Baillie out in Scottish Labour reshuffle (BBC)

Labour Reshuffle: ‘I thought Richard was better than this’ (Scotsman)


On this issue, Richard Leonard must stand up to Corbyn (Scotsman)


Leonard criticised for silence on Dugdale legal fight (Herald)

Aberdeen Nine support Kezia Dugdale – despite being suspended by the former Scottish Labour leader (Press & Journal)

David Mundell says he’ll support Kezia Dugdale in legal battle (Scotsman) 

Tory offers to back Dugdale in court (Times)


David Mundell agrees to support Kezia Dugdale in Wings Over Scotland legal fight (Herald)

Leonard to face Labour MSPs over Dugdale legal row (Herald)

Leaked WhatsApp messages reveal Scottish Labour “meltdown” over Kezia Dugdale legal row (Herald)


Labour was right to stop funding Kezia Dugdale, but they’ve done it for all the wrong reasons (Herald)

Kezia Dugdale ‘failed to thank’ Labour for covering legal fees in gay slur case (Times)

Leaked letter claims Labour did not make funding promise to Dugdale (National)


Unite boss: Kez should have used £70k ‘jungle’ fee for legal costs (Herald)

SNP dreams of Kezia Dugdale defection in wake of Wings over Scotland legal case row (Times)

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and party’s National Executive Committee dragged into Kezia Dugdale row (Sunday Post)

Richard Leonard considering Scottish Labour reshuffle as civil war rages over Kezia Dugdale row (Herald)

Labour hits back in Kezia Dugdale legal fees row (Scotsman)


Kezia Dugdale: Labour ‘can’t be trusted if Jeremy Corbyn is at the helm’ (Times)

Kezia Dugdale battle a stern ‘test’ of Richard Leonard’s leadership (Scotsman)

Furious Kezia Dugdale says you can’t trust the Labour Party as fees row continues (National)

Dugdale comes unstuck over libel case funding (Morning Star)

Kezia Dugdale gets new help to defend Wings legal case (Herald)

Scotland’s Papers: Kezia Dugdale’s anger at party (BBC)


Jeremy Corbyn is ignoring my texts, says Kezia Dugdale (Times)

Kezia Dugdale: Labour’s decision to stop funding Wings Over Scotland case ‘political’ (Scotsman)

Scottish Labour in crisis over legal fees as Kezia Dugdale fears bankruptcy (National)

Kezia Dugdale: ‘How can people trust Labour?’ (BBC)

Daily Record to pay Dugdale’s fees in legal battle with Wings Over Scotland (National)


Kezia Dugdale ‘crushed’ after Labour chiefs dropped financial support in Wings over Scotland legal case (Daily Record)

Kezia Dugdale ‘crushed’ after Labour ended funding in Wings Over Scotland legal case (Herald)

Kezia Dugdale `crushed´ by Labour pulling legal support (Daily Mail)

Kezia Dugdale ‘crushed’ after Labour drops support in Wings Over Scotland case (Scotsman)

Kezia Dugdale ‘crushed’ by Labour pulling legal support (Courier)


Labour to reconsider bankrolling Kezia Dugdale legal defence (Herald)


Call for rethink on Kezia Dugdale libel costs (Times)

Kezia Dugdale taunted by Wings Over Scotland blogger amid claims Labour is pulling funds for legal battle (Sun)

Labour members call for U-turn over Dugdale’s legal fees (Scotsman)


By ending Kez’s legal support, Labour is helping Wings over Scotland (Herald)

Oliver Mundell backs Labour’s Kezia Dugdale in ‘gay slur’ costs row involving blogger and his father (Times)

Labour MSPs urged to fund Kezia Dugdale’s legal costs in battle against Wings over Scotland blogger (Herald)


Anger over decision to halt funding in Kezia Dugdale libel case (Times)

Richard Leonard keeps quiet after Kezia Dugdale’s legal funds are stopped (National)


Labour cut funding for Dugdale defamation defence (BBC)

Ex-Scottish Labour leader faces paying THOUSANDS in legal costs after party stops funds (Express)

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  1. 03 10 18 14:56

    Half the news fit to print | speymouth

187 to “Half the news fit to print”

  1. Doug

    Back when I was involved in trying to promote local sports teams we would always tell potential sponsors that they threw some cash at us and we put their name with ours, that any appearance in the news would give them great publicity. We used to use the local press advert prices as a guide to show the value.

    So I’m wondering either side of this *ahem* story could raise some revenue by changing their name and inserting some sort of sponsor in the middle 🙂

    At this rate I’m fairly sure Kezia “Betfred” Dugdale could raise a few bob or two with sponsorship, after all we know that bookies love it when folks back losers.

  2. SandyW

    Aren’t our Scottish media great? On top of the big stories, confident that there is nothing else going on that they might have missed.

  3. Achnababan

    Can you put this to music please?

  4. Bob Mack

    Is it not incredible that they are trying to bolster someone they formerly criticised openly just a short time ago.?

    It gives truth to the old adage that “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”

    Wow Rev, you really have rocked their world.

    Beneficially, the more they cosy up to each other the more obvious it becomes there is actually no difference between them. A Unionist is a Unionist regardless of which colour rosette they pin on their lapel at election time. Shared values to keep your countryfolk subordinate.

  5. Morag

    Things they’re not reporting.

    – Stu originally offered to settle the case for a retraction, an apology and damages of £10,000. Kezia threw this and subsequent offers back in his face.

    – Stu was advised that the case could come to a full hearing and a judgement in the sheriff court for about £10,000 costs on each side.

    – Stu ran a fundraiser to see if he had enough support from his friends to do this, asked for £5,000 and got in total I think about £12,000. So it all looked perfectly affordable.

    – After the Labour party got involved a firm of London solicitors was instructed. They then had to instruct Scottish solicitors, who then engaged top silk. The top silk showed up even to procedural hearings where normally a firm would just send s junior to take notes.

    – This wasn’t even for the main hearing, but for preliminary hearings that Kezia/Labour instigated in the hope of preventing the case coming to a full hearing.

    – Because of this Stuart was also forced to instruct equivalent-grade counsel, all while still engaged in the preliminary hearings. This has caused his costs to run up to about £40,000.

    – Nobody quite knows how Kezia’s side has managed to spend £95,000, but the London lawyers probably have something to do with that.

    – Her/Labour’s purpose in doing that is quite transparently to cause costs to escalate far beyond what Stu envisaged in the first place, so that in the event he loses he’ll be ruined and the Wings Fighting Fund will be no more. Obviously she thought she was going to win. Because everybody knows Stu is vile so obviously she’s allowed to say what she likes about him. Or something.

    – The loss of the preliminary hearing seems to have caused some people to take stock a bit and they’ve begun to realise that they might (will probably) lose, and have to pay all these inflated costs themselves. So Jenny Formby decided to pull the plug.

    – Now Kezia is bleating on the end of her own well-hoist petard.

  6. galamcennalath

    Can you imagine what it must feel like to be so gullible that you think this is an accurate representation of what’s going on? To believe the Labour Party is at the centre of the case? To accept such a warped view of who is the victim here?

    Naw? Me neither!

  7. katsoft

    To look on bright side think of free publicity you are getting for Wings site. Stupid MSM letting pubkic know you exist. Might just help to convert don’t knows or soft yoons

  8. Bob Mack

    Kezias lawyer also relied on a defence which had no priority in Scots law. London lawyers ? Top QC? Oh dear.

  9. ScottishPsyche

    Can all this stuff be used as evidence of attempting to influence the perception of WoS to the public during a live legal action?

    ‘He is a bad un m’lud, look at all these articles showing Kez and her esteemed followers saying so’.

  10. Ann Rayner

    London Labour hire London lawyers, at vast expense, no doubt thinking that Scottish lawyers are not good enough. Shows what they think of Scotland.
    Under the laws of which country will this case be tried? Do London Labour know that there are many differences between accord law and English law? Do they care?

  11. Thepnr

    42 Articles: The answer to life, the universe and everything.

  12. Welsh Sion

    Just a cursory look at the headlines (enough for my own personal welfare and blood pressure) by not reading the whole articles – it all goes to show that Kezia believes it’s all about “Me, Me, Me” and the MSM is happy to go along with that for the most part.

    I also learn that the Minister responsible for Northern Colonies has now thrown his weight around in offering his support. But isn’t he a political opponent – a ‘real’ Tory? No … wait! Better Togetherers together – whaddya expect?

    Yet we didn’t see Fundle-Mundell coming out in support of Alex, did we? And he, like everyone else is innocent until proven guilty, although this would not appear to be the case in this age of Trial by MSM.

  13. HandandShrimp

    So if council house building debt goes on the national debt will Scottish councils be able to participate or will we just get a share of the national debt in GERS but no ability to borrow?

    Be interesting to see how that plays out.

    Increased council house building, something the SNP have already been doing, is now to get brakes removed. That should give the rentier class pause for thought.

  14. HandandShrimp

    The number of articles is probably indicative of how much the media liked the Blairite wing of New Labour and how much it dislikes the Corbyn wing. It is also likely to be linked to the Chinese burns that Wings has given the media over the years with a hope that Kezia wins burning as brightly as their wrists.

    It almost certainly doesn’t mean that they care whether Kezia is in the right and even less about any injured feelings Oliver Mundell may nurse about the slight to his oratory skills.

  15. cirsium

    Morag, 1.09

    thanks for the clear layout of the actions and their consequences. Welcome back.

  16. ScottishPsyche

    These articles also highlight the split in Slab, get a dig in at Jeremy Corbyn while drumming up sympathy for Dugdale.

    The press, of course, continues with their drip feed of one-sided views – which ironically is why WoS exists – and exemplify what this legal action is about.

    I hope you get your day in court and win because we have the most corrupt media in the so-called free world.

  17. Macart

    Seems there’s an important viewpoint missing from all that.

  18. mogabee


    Wait! Are you implying that Mundelly junior has ‘oratory’ skills???

    Hold the front page. 😀 😀 😀 😀

  19. jfngw

    Great measurement of how the MSM hate and fear this site. One sided reporting, no balance, pretty much sums up the MSM in Scotland. These types of stories seem to be the only ones were the BBC doesn’t think that balance is important.

  20. Dr Jim

    Did everyone notice in a desperate attempt to smear Nicola Sturgeon in her keynote speech Theresa May admitted the Tories were the ones who actually have been betraying Scotland for the last fifty years over the Common Fisheries Policy and not Nicola Sturgeon

    It was the Tories who signed up to that policy not the Scottish government because there wasn’t any Scottish government and to assume that the Scottish government would make the same deal on Scotlands re entry into the EU is farcical to say the least

    But more to the point it’s stupid British Nationalist dumbassery aimed at dumbasses with goldfish memories

  21. Les Wilson

    I doubt Munell’s intervention on Kezia’s behalf will help her at all. He is an avid anti Wings person, that I think would not be hard to prove, thus making him a bias thus unreliable witness. The judge will suss that out.

    For Mundell it is a political stunt to harm wings, nothing less, as we all here know. However I suspect he will not be helping her case, perhaps the exact opposite.

  22. Patrick Roden

    One of the funniest things in all of this, is the ‘help’ that Kezia is getting from Mundel.

    First of all, the story of his ‘help’ came just as the fall-out from UkLabour / Richard Leonards ‘lack of help’ was reaching a crescendo.

    Coincidence, or typical Tory behavior of putting the boot in when your opponents down?

    Just think how the fact that ‘Blairite’ Kezia is getting a helping hand from her ‘Better Together Tory ally’ is going down with traditional Labour voters (or the few that are still clinging on to the belief that they are about to go back to being a genuine socialist party again)

    Coincidence, or typical Tory behavior of sowing division within their opponents voter base?

    And yet again, the gullible SlabServitives, will believe the Tories are doing it all for their benefit, so thank their master for another kick up the arse.

    At the same time they will still be wondering where that army of voters who used to vote for them through thick and thin, has went…
    Since they first entered in to a political partnership with the Tories.

    Ah well, never mind!

  23. Les Wilson

    Found a good description for Mundell.
    He is a “snollygoster”

    Google explanation

    snollygoster. snol·ly·gos·ter. noun. Slang.

    “One, especially a politician, who is guided by personal advantage rather than by consistent, respectable principles.”

    Fits I think!

  24. Proud Cybernat

    So we’re all talking about WoS defamation case against K. Dugdale. The wheels of justice move very slowly and tie us in knots.

    Is this not merely being spun out by the BritNats as a distraction to take our eye off the ball? Instead of pressing the case for an Indy Scotland at every moment, we’re all being led a merry dance. Instead of demanding that the BritNats present their positive case for this accursed ‘Union’, we are fighting them in court on important but ultimately extraneous issues.

    Is this what they want? If so, should we give them what they want?

    What I want is Scotland to be free from this so-called ‘Union’ (that is NOT actually a Union at all but rather colonial domination). I want the people of Scotland to get off their knees and tell these BritNats who are intent on keeping us chained to shove their precious precious ‘Union’ where the sun don’t shine.

    This country of SCOTLAND is facing is biggest ever existential threat with BREXSHIT just around the corner. Will you be happy when there is no food in the shops to put a dinner down to your kids? Are you happy with your UK ration book that will only have limited use on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Are you happy that your husband/wife, sister/brother or anyone else close to you cannot get the pain killers they need for their chronic pain condition? Are you happy to see your loved ones in literal PAIN as a result of this clusterphuk that is BREXSHIT?

    Naw – me neither.

    Get off your knees Scotland. Grasp the thistle and tell these life wreckers to do one. At the ballot box in IndyRef2.

    THAT’S what’s important right now. Let’s keep our eye on the ball.

  25. Mountain Shadow

    Rev Stu..

    Might be worth starting a legal fund now for the expected increased legal costs. Christmas is approaching and folk might not have the funds in November and December.

    It also won’t detract from the main fundraiser in the Spring.

  26. jfngw

    Johnson has his Thomson, May has her Keunssberg. Possibly ‘Love is in the air’ would have been a better entrance song.

  27. Malcolm McCandless

    No of media stories (so far)

    Herald – 12
    Times – 8
    Scotsman – 6
    National – 5
    BBC – 3
    Daily Mail – 1
    Daily Record – 1
    Daily Express – 1
    Sun – 1
    P&J – 1
    Courier – 1
    Sunday Post – 1
    Morning Star – 1

  28. Morag

    I think, perhaps sadly, that on balance this isn’t going to go all the way now.

    It seems that everyone involved expects the appeal against the sheriff’s ruling to fail. At that point the Daily Record is likely to pull the plug too and advise Kezia to settle. If she does that she’s liable for none of her own costs, but will have to pay Stu’s costs (which may run to £50,000 by then) plus damages (and I don’t think Stu is in the mood to settle for less than the £25,000 now). So she would be personally liable for around £75,000.

    That is a great deal of money, but she is a well-off woman with a very well-paid job and other income too. She’s probably in a position to fund that without going bankrupt, although she might well have to borrow and it will certainly hurt. A lot.

    Looking at that prospect, and still smarting with her sense of self-righteous injured innocence, she might well feel she wants to continue with the action. However if she does that she will have to fund her own case going forward. She might have to borrow to do that, or of course she could start a fundraiser just like Stu did to see whether all these people who are so vocal in her support will put their money where their mouths are. Like Stu’s friends did. (Actually I’d love to see that happen, especially after the reaction to Alex Salmond’s legal fees fundraiser.)

    But she’d be taking one hell of a risk. She’d be risking having to pay far far more in costs eventually, if she lost the main hearing. And surely by now some of the advice that her chances of winning are not good must be getting through. I don’t think she’ll do it, so we won’t see that day in court that we were looking forward to.

    Then of course it will be poor wee Kezia, ruined by that big bad rich Wings Over Bath zoomer. She had to give in even though she was in the right because he racked up the costs so much. Which is almost the exact opposite of what actually happened. Not that that will stop the journos making her into a victim.

    She is looking at a bad prospect though. I could almost feel sorry for her. Almost. But then I remember that hate-filled rant at FMQs, and that she’s almost certainly that vile troll Fifi la Bonbon from back before 2007, and I don’t really feel very sorry any more.

  29. Morag

    … was reaching a crescendo.

    You don’t reach a crescendo. A crescendo reaches a climax.


  30. Morag

    Found a good description for Mundell.
    He is a “snollygoster”

    Google explanation

    snollygoster. snol·ly·gos·ter. noun. Slang.

    “One, especially a politician, who is guided by personal advantage rather than by consistent, respectable principles.”

    That definitely needs to come back into common usage. There are a lot of them around!

  31. Capella

    All the headlines for 27th September are uncannily similar – “Kezia Dugdale ‘crushed’… ” though David Clegg in the DR claims that Kezia spoke to him personally on their political podcast right after FMQs on Thursday 27th.

    Perhaps they are all psychic and just “knew” she was going to say that.

    I suspect David Clegg is orchestrating the whole farce to keep up the DR’s reputation for duping the Scottish electorate with “The Vow”. How they would love to get rid of WoS.

  32. Betty Boop

    Jings, 27 September looks a bit dull or is that just a clarification that there really is only one “reporter”? Things must be bad in MSMland.

  33. galamcennalath

    Rejoice, rejoice! Austerity has ended!

    (all we need is a ‘good’ Brexit first)

    Laugh, or cry!?

  34. CameronB Brodie

    Perhaps there are other more pressing social issues that the media wish to distract us from. Such as volatility in the artisan cheese market. After all, it’s not as if complexity management has anything to do with making Britain great again.

    Dr Mike Galsworthy – “Concerned About Brexit?” talk, Bradford-on-Avon, 21st June 2018

  35. gus1940


    I have just completed an in depth YouGov Survey which is nearly 100% Scotland orientated.

    I look forward to seeing the results.

  36. Valerie

    Just incredible seeing it all gathered in one place.

    Labour are beyond stupid. The muddled approach, lack of rigour, are symptomatic of the Party.

    It’s just another episode of incompetence, just like the 40 years they had to leave a wasteland in Scotland, as they’re doing to the Welsh.

    We have to pray they are never near power again.

  37. Cubby

    Politics Scotland = British Nationalist Chat Show.

    A bunch of middle class, middle/old aged, white Britnat men telling us how good a dancer you can turn a maybot into. What a pathetic pathetic programme.

    The maybot states that Sturgeon would sell out the fishermen. Any decent political programme would point out the Tories have already sold them out for the Brexit transitional deal. This, however, is not any decent political programme it is the BBC propaganda unit. Brewer shouting/talking over the few secs of airtime given to the SNP MSP when trying to reply to a question.

    Nothing but Britnat propaganda. Promises of change by the BBC is just the BBC taking the piss.
    It is the media’s job in Scotland to denigrate Scotland, the Scots, the independence movement, the SNP and the Scottish government. The only part of Scotland that is not rubbished by the media is the media itself. Surprise surprise. The media in Scotland is totalled controlled by Westminster. Expect to be served up propaganda until you die or Scotland is independent. That is the choice.

  38. Proud Cybernat


    Scots Women’s Chess.

    Arakhamia-Grant Ketevan has won 8.5 points from her first 9 matches and is on course to win a gold medal at the 43rd Chess Olympiad in Georgia. She has 2 matches remaining.

  39. robertknight

    Officially ‘Lost it’ (May, that is).

  40. Rookiescot

    Fire the original offer back at them.
    10,000 and an apology.
    The Daily Record will tell her to take it.

  41. call me dave

    Proud Cybernat says:
    3 October, 2018 at 4:04 pm

    Scots Women’s Chess.

    Watching ‘live chess’ games on my ‘steam’ account.
    Here she is…photo. I hope if linky thing OK

  42. Alex


    Like to say I’m surprised about the lack of balance in the MSM only going to you twice for quotes, Stuart. But I’m not. This is what passes for journalism in Scotland today.

    Oh, and surely (without being a sook) it should be: ‘influential pro-independence blogger.’ We are being poorly served by Scotland’s own quota of Pravdas, lead by that pantheon of Pravdas, BBC London in Scotland.

  43. ScotsRenewables

    According to the Evening Standard, Nicolas says there will be no referendum update until November or even December as Brexit details remain unknown.

    I suspect some of the troops will not be too happy.

  44. galamcennalath

    Nicola …. “The end of this period of negotiation, I previously thought that would be October. It is now looking like that is more likely to be November, perhaps with a vote in the House of Commons in December.

    So I will take a judgment depending on where we get to, set out some views on where I think we’re heading if we don’t change course, and have more to say on that point.””

    Fair enough. Brexit could all collapse and be cancelled (unlikely), chaos could dictate a GE (likely), or they accept it’s NoDeal. All demand different responses from the SG.

    Patience is difficult!

  45. yesindyref2

    OT – defence and whales (the sea ones)

    This graphic article could distress people, so careful clicking it.

    “Did sonar cause unexplained whale deaths?”

    Some defence background for peeps, not in the article.

    Russia is spending a lot of money and resources building up its sub fleet, making them very quiet. The UK has the Astute SSN (hunter killer) and it’s a very advanced sub, it impresses the Yanks. There was a sea trial off the US coast a year or two ago where an Astute tracked a Yank sub at 200 miles distance and kept with it, without begin detected itself.

    That’s 200 miles, you can imagine the power involved in that. Great stuff for countering the Russian subs indeed, and sadly neccessary as a counter to their threat. In fact the Yanks acknowledge that the UK is very good at ASW (apart from having screwed up over MPA – Nimrod). But it seems pretty obvious to me that the whales wouldn’t like it. Would you like 110 db hissing and booming in your ears or head, day and night?

    Thing is of couse with Faslane you’d have to presume that would be of interest to the Russians, and a target, to counter that there would be SSNs, either Tragalgar or Astutes around, as well as a step-up of ASW and airborne sub-hunting and the UK actually does have some airborne MPA ability it doesn’t talk about much.

    With Faslane becoming a base for all subs in the near future, you’d have to guess that if these incidences increase there would be more whale death, not less. So you could say that a benefit of the Union is that Scotland gets our marine life obliterated. Thanks for that, we’re better together, the broad shoulders of the UK in Scotland to wash up whales on our beaches.

    But that conversely once Faslane (and Coulport) are shifted to Devonport with our Independence, we’d be fairly clear again, as though Scotland would still be a “target” as such, you’d have to presume underwater activity would sharply decrease.

  46. One_Scot

    Lol, Theresa May, that’s the dance of someone who just does not give a shit anymore.

    The only enemy more dangerous than a woman with unlimited resources is one with nothing to lose.

  47. yesindyref2

    I just remembered that Joint Warrior 2018 (based out of Faslane) had a large anti-sub contingent to it (partly because of that cheecky Russian sub persicope popping incident), and being in May 2018 that could be a direct cause:

    Very sad if it’s true that’s the cause of so many whales likely getting confused and getting the bends surfacing too fast.

    For those who don’t know I have an interest in defence, I’m not Greenpeace or any of that lot.

  48. Bob Mack

    I went into my local shop today and saw chocolate at half price. Near it’s sell by date. I tried to dissuade myself from buying,but eventually capitulated. It might seem a bad deal,but I have chocolate now at half price instead of nothing to nibble..

    Is no deal always better than a bad deal I ask myself?


  49. yesindyref2

    In fairness by the way, the Royal Navy do try. In JW2018 for instance I think I remember a marine landing being cancelled or moved because there was a pod of whales in the area. But there’s only so much can be done, it’s a balance between marine life and defence of the realm, and the armed forces have to take action stirred up by arsehole big-mouth politicians like Boris.

  50. Jason Smoothpiece

    Tories supporting Scottish Labour who would have thought it. Two cheeks same arse no doubt about it.

    Puts a different spin on better together.

    Anyway, does anyone know if the ration books will be UK blue surely they wont be EU maroon that would be terrible.

  51. Macart


    Like I’ve been saying. May is playing for time. This is about creating a narrative of blame and scapegoating to offset what will be unavoidable hardship.

    There is no good Brexit. Only ever increasing degrees of hardship for an ever widening proportion of the population. Ending with a no deal scenario, which is unquantifiable in the misery it will cause.

    Let no one be in any doubt where the blame lies for this impending catastrophe and what our populations have gone through to date. The buck stops with Westminster government.

  52. Alan Mackintosh


    You mentioned the Astute, and the silent Russian subs, have you heard about the Swedish Gotland diesel subs. They are even quieter than the nuclear boats. They use a Sterling engine.

  53. haudonthenoo

    Live chess ?

    Is that even possible ?

  54. yesindyref2

    @Morag, 1.09
    Yes, thanks for that. For some odd reason it’s not how the schoolboy in the Herald article portrayed it, where it seems Wings had unlimted funds of £500,000 and was the bully.

    There’s so many liars around it would make you weep.

  55. Thepnr


    It sure is possible, all the boards electronically record the moves which can then be viewed on a screen and sent over the internet.

  56. Jim McIntosh

    Had the Rev been writing a post mentioning Haiti (I know, unlikely) and had said “Baby Doc Duvalier is the sort of dictator that makes you wish his dad had embraced his homosexuality” I wonder if it would be having all this kerfuffle. Is that statement homophobic?

  57. ronnie anderson

    May the dancing queen Pmsl thank fek she didnae attempt the twist .

  58. Fred

    Annie Wells stars in a Conservative party broadcast!

  59. Abulhaq

    Both Unionist parties are taking Scotland’s acceptance of continuing subordinate status, Brexit or no Brexit, for granted.
    Neither of the Brit chiefs appear to understand what is driving Scotland’s brand of national politics.
    Corbyn claims Labour is bringing ‘hope’ and a new social egalitarianism. May claims Conservatives are bringing ‘opportunity’ to be proud and enterprising in a UK ‘set free’.
    The irony of their claims will not escape us after all independence, which they both oppose, would set us free, give our people hope and restore our pride. All very bad for us colonials.

  60. yesindyref2

    @Alan Mackintosh
    Yes, it’s very good, shows what can be achieved with “conventional” propulsion, and way cheaper. I think one beat a Los Angeles class sub in an exercise, way back.

    Like others I figured Scotland couldn’t afford subs, but you can get an AIP from a basic £200 million each, so if Scotland could stretch to 2% of GDP, it could manage 4 by say 2030, as long as the economic benefit came to Scotland – AND accounting methods were changed so defence spending reaped that benefit (that’s what the UK Treasury should do).

    Here’s a couple of concepts:

    and particularly this:

    BMT are very interesting, and since they’re based in Bath I think Rev should take the emergency kitten and schmooze them a bit with a view to them moving to iScotland 🙂 We haven’t had sub-building expertise in Scotland for a lot of years (though we do have semi-submersible) – nor did the UK right enough before Astute.

  61. galamcennalath


    I was reading about the Velvet Divorce of Czech Rep and Slovakia. They decided to go their own ways amicably. Dissolved their Union, split their assets, remained friends and neighbours.

    Clearly England wants her independence and wishes to take her own path into the future. Fair enough. But wishing to drag the rest of us along with her against our will, WTF!

    Why can’t we just move to our own Velvet Divorce? Amicably and with mutual respect?

    No need for replies, the imperialist aspect of English nationalism means what is theirs is theirs, what is ours is also theirs!

  62. Tinto Chiel

    Regarding the media treatment of this Dugdale story, Thomas Jefferson has just contacted me via my Ouija board to say:

    “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”

    Could be a strapline for The Rev.

  63. Andrew Gordon

    Well thats me managed to swear for an entire three minutes without a breath watching tonights Coservative party political broadcast, if Walt Disney was alive he would have a hard job competing with that fantasy, if hipocrasy was a sport the Scottish torries would be top of the table ffs!

  64. jfngw

    Good to see the Conservatives now doing a PPB for Dummies episode. At the conclusion the tagline is no to referendums, don’t say they are a one policy party, it’s all referendums now. Apparently people are fed up with democracy according to Ruth Davidson.

  65. galamcennalath

    Brexit timetable set out clearly …

    Is it going to be Blind Brexit fudge, or No Deal teeth demolishing toffee?

  66. S

    @ gus1940 I did that same survey too.

  67. Frank Waring

    Sorry to be so ignorant — but where did that revolting image “— Sturgeon” come from? Straight question…..

  68. hackalumpoff

    @ Tinto
    “Thomas Jefferson has just contacted me via my Ouija board”

    Ease up on the Aberlour in the the Todddies.

    Save some for the Picnic after the March, I’ll need an alcohol rub for my feet.

  69. Thepnr

    @Frank Waring

    That’s Kezia earning the big bucks on I’m a celebrity 🙂

  70. Lenny Hartley

    O/T there have been a few comments on various blogs on FaceBook that the EU planned to make the UK Gov to double pensions next year, i cant find anything that backs this up, sounds like fake news, anybody know where this is coming from?

  71. Thepnr

    …and if you’d like to see the evidence, here it is 🙂

  72. Petra

    @ Morag at 1:09pm … ”Her/Labour’s purpose in doing that is quite transparently to cause costs to escalate far beyond what Stu envisaged in the first place, so that in the event he loses he’ll be ruined and the Wings Fighting Fund will be no more. Obviously she thought she was going to win. Because everybody knows Stu is vile so obviously she’s allowed to say what she likes about him. Or something.”

    Thanks for the additional information, Morag. And just to say, Stu should be aware of the fact, that he’ll get financial backing from us to enable him to see this through to the end. He should also hold a crowdfunder to cover any current out of pocket expenses. It’s the least we can do for him.


    @ Bob Mack says at 1:27 pm …. ”Kezias lawyer also relied on a defence which had no priority in Scots law. London lawyers ? Top QC? Oh dear.”

    That seems to be the Labour way of doing things, Bob. Money is no object as long as it’s not being used for the common people. As I mentioned before on here the Labour controlled Councils in Scotland, in turn controlled by GCC, employed a QC (plus legal team) from day one to represent them at Glasgow Tribunal, FGS, against employees of their Education Departments. At that time, 20 years ago, the QC’s fee was £1000 a day (in Court and working behind the scene).

    ONE case alone ran for over 50 days at Glasgow Tribunal, was appealed to the Employment Appeal Tribunal, then the Court of Session and finally on to the House of Lords. I can’t find a comprehensive list of cases since 1970 (The Equal Pay Act 1970), however there’s been 81 Equal Pay cases in 2017 alone (plus check out further jurisdiction codes).

    Maybe the BBC could make a Freedom of Information request to find out how much of tax-payers money has been wasted on Equal Pay cases, in Unionist controlled Councils in Scotland, since the 1970’s? keywords=+City+Council&page=2&tribunal_decision_categories%5B%5D=equal-pay act&tribunal_decision_country%5B%5D=scotland&tribunal_decision_decision_date%5Bfrom%5D=1960&tribunal_decision_decision_date%5Bto%5D=2018

  73. Rock

    Sorry O/T

    I can say with 99% confidence that Saint Theresa is about to have a No deal Brexit and call a general election.

    Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

    “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

    The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

    But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

    The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

    It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

    Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

    Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

    If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

    Challenge to the usual suspects:

    Do you have the guts to go on the record and state that there will definitely be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?

  74. Tinto Chiel

    “Ease up on the Aberlour in the the Todddies.”

    That’s an outrageous suggestion, hackalumpoff. It’s actually a small Bunnahabhain in a 15% water solution.

    Think I’ll pass on the foot massage after the march but I love a good picnic. My hard-boiled eggs are legendary (ooh, matron!).

  75. Dorothy Devine

    Just caught a ‘ticker tape ‘ on RT with Mrs May telling our Nicola to stop betraying Scotland and get on with the day job. Quite outrageous .

    Had she seen the appalling Scottish conservative PB she might have been better directing it at them and herself.

  76. Hamish100

    rock -you only need to be 1% wrong

  77. Petra

    @ Dr Jim says at 2:35 pm …. ”Did everyone notice in a desperate attempt to smear Nicola Sturgeon in her keynote speech Theresa May admitted the Tories were the ones who actually have been betraying Scotland for the last fifty years over the Common Fisheries Policy and not Nicola Sturgeon. It was the Tories who signed up to that policy not the Scottish government because there wasn’t any Scottish government and to assume that the Scottish government would make the same deal on Scotland’s re entry into the EU is farcical to say the least.”

    Reported of course on BBC and STV news tonight, Dr Jim, with no reference forthcoming in relation to any point that you’ve made. Par for the course. Just a wee omission. Another one …. being used to sucker the viewers.

    No one seems to be reporting on the key role that the FM of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon, NOT UK PM Theresa May, has played either in getting a better deal for Amazon workers. Amazing that a politician in the US is aware of this and is singing her, Nicola’s, praises and yet not a dicky bird from this side of the Atlantic. Pathetic.

  78. Fred

    Anent the Tory broadcast, Annie Wells can drive a car!

  79. Petra

    Mmhh, I see that the link at 7:39pm has been botched! If anyone is interested in checking things out fill in ‘Councils’, tick Scotland, tick jurisdiction code ‘equal pay’, fill in date after 1970 and before 2018.

    From doing that 81 cases show up for 2017 only. God only knows how many cases there’s been over time.

  80. heraldnomore

    Chilling. The fragrant Arlene’s Red Lines are, wait for it – Blood ‘kin Red.

    What can she have in mind?

  81. Thepnr


    Results of the search archived for you.

  82. Petra

    Gregg Brain is proving to be a REAL asset to our cause.

    ‘Historic Environment Scotland challenged over Declaration of Arbroath anniversary plans.’

    ”Historic Environment Scotland (HES) is being asked if it will ban access to Arbroath Abbey in 2020 – the 700th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Arbroath – after it refused to allow indy supporters into Stirling Castle car park on their 500-mile march across Scotland because their presence was “political”.

    Activists are already furious after it banned the All Under One Banner rally from Holyrood Park after this Saturday’s march through Edinburgh.

    Now Gregg Brain, whose family was involved in a lengthy battle with the Home Office to remain in Scotland, has written to HES chief executive Alex Paterson, about the Arbroath anniversary.

    He notes that HES is responsible for the site and, “stating the obvious”, on April 6, 2020, Scotland would be celebrating the 700th anniversary of the declaration’s signing, which he describes as “perhaps the most significant political act in this country’s history; attempting to have the Pope intervene in the governance of this island”.

    Brain said: “By definition, any commemoration of this event, will also be an overtly political event. I note your agency’s recent very public stance ruling out political activities on HES sites. As such, your consistency and integrity means that I know you will at some point be announcing a prohibition of any celebration of the Arbroath 700th Anniversary on the site itself.

    “Accordingly, an early announcement to this effect would be very much appreciated, as it will give the public the opportunity to give you feedback on your policy in this regard, as well as providing event organisers the much-needed time to change their plans.

    “You may wish to consider ways to avoid the public relations disaster that your policy is building up for you. You may even reconsider both the policy and its execution on this occasion … simply allowing access without comment might be a more reasonable response. I (and, I suspect, many others) look forward to a prompt reply.”

    HES had not responded to a request for comment before The National went to press.”


    So many excellent articles in the National / Sunday National now. The latter being a great improvement on the Sunday Herald. And how lucky are we to have David Pratt, Foreign Affairs Editor, contributing to the SN? One of the few veracious journalists left: On a par with Robert Fisk and Jonathan Cook, imo.

    ‘Women on the edge: harrowing and courageous stories from around the world.’

  83. Macart

    @Dorothy Devine

    “Mrs May telling our Nicola to stop betraying Scotland and get on with the day job”

    She did, did she?

    Which, y’know, is ironic coming from a person representing a party that’s sold out every demographic of the populations of these islands bar one. Every party they’ve ever got into bed with and regularly practises serial backstabbery with each other on a weekly basis.

    Self awareness not a strong point with Tories right enough. (shrugs)

    Wondering if Ms May’s £50k target for immigrant labour extends to Scots, Irish and Welsh? Seein’ as how I’ve never come anywhere near that kind of sum in ma puff. When I worked in London (many moons ago), I barely earned a fifth of that sum.

    Also? Apparently an internationalist speech claims Ruth Bakeoff… Oh, and ‘rooted in the centre ground at home’. From a government that is inflicting the greatest act of political, societal and economic self harm of the post war period.

    ‘Centre ground’. Brexit. A Brexit won on a campaign of exclusion, near naked xenophobia and exceptionalism. A campaign currently under investigation by the authorities I understand. But, y’know, centre ground.

    Dorothy, I’m not entirely convinced that Ruthie’s idea of what constitutes centre ground and internationalism is the same as most other folks.

  84. wull2

    My Data stopped working, the new sim went missing, some posts have went missing, automatic inspersion of my user name and email address on this site sometimes stops working to discourage me from posting.
    I must have got close and touched a nerve.
    If any of the above happens to you, tell everyone you know of your experience and to vote YES next time to help stop it.

  85. Petra

    @ Thepnr says at 8:38 pm …. ”Petra – Results of the search archived for you.

    Thanks for that, Thepnr. That’s what you call team work (smiley) X

  86. velofello

    Is Kezia actually a sitcom?

    At the beginning – of her “adult” political life she is schooled by… Foulkes, and for a laugh, it is claimed, during her internship posted comments as Fiffy something or other on the internet. Time passes, she accepts the poisoned chalice of Slab leader, messes up big time; finds a new partner in an SNP MSP; writes a column in a rag newspaper that causes Rev Stu to demand a retraction; she declines and Rev Stu initiates litigation; the Labour party, not Slab, decides to finance her defence; Kez flits off to Australia for payment on a comedy show and pockets £45K post tax; the Labour party decide to stop financing her litigation, having “invested” ’till then, £94K in whatever benefit was perceived to be for their membership; she then in response wails “who can trust Labour”; next up Mundell mounts his trusty steed to support her.

    Whatever next? Ruth has bagged the lesbian pregnancy script, so that’s out. May has just bagged the Strictly Dancin’ role.”Scottish” tories have bagged the visits to Israel jaunts.What next for Kez, a Trump, or Putin spokesperson correspondent post in the UK? Or whatever.

  87. Dorothy Devine

    Me neither Sam , I think the wee scowler is a chancer of the first water.

    It was a ticker tape report along the bottom of the screen on RT which quoted the Theresa May piece against Nicola , I have no reason to doubt RT accuracy on the subject.

  88. Cubby

    Lying Britnats to the left of you. Lying Britnats to the right of you.

    Bloody lying Britnats all over the place.

  89. cearc


    Double sounds a bit much but the EU countries agreed, a long time ago, to a minimum standard for all benefits.

    The UK has been well below for years and for several years the EU have been complaining and pointing out the legal requirement. So maybe they have done something.

    I haven’t seen anything recently but remember quite a lot of stuff about it 5 or 6 years ago. Notably, IDS saying incredulously, ‘They expect us to give them more money!’

    ‘They’ being EU and ‘them’ being benefit recipients.

  90. jfngw

    Well last year Nicola Sturgeon brought some cough sweets to have a joke at May. This year I believe she is going to come on with a can of WD40 penetration oil, it loosens up those stiff joints.

  91. galamcennalath

    Dorothy Devine says:

    Just caught a ‘ticker tape ‘ on RT with Mrs May telling our Nicola to stop betraying Scotland

    I wonder if May is trying to provoke a response?

    Although waiting is making us all impatient, the SG’s silence on when it will call an inevitable end to the Union must be driving the BritNats crazy!

    They know it will be a ‘fight to the death’ and they know, given the way Brexit is going, it is probably going to mean the death of the UK.

  92. Petra

    The Sun newspaper reporting today that Nicola stated last night that she may have to delay an update on Indyref2 until November / December (rather than October) due to the lack of detail on Brexit.

    Where did they get that from?

  93. Thepnr


    ‘rooted in the centre ground at home’

    You know what is surreal?

    Today’s Tory party really are “the centre ground” as far as the UK electorate are concerned after decades of brainwashing.

    It’s now perfectly fine to throw out people that have lived in the UK for over 50 years because you failed to process their paperwork properly aka Windrush.

    It’s now perfectly fine to have families rely on foodbanks to be fed or to starve because Universal Credit won’t pay your benefits if you’ve had a heart attack outside of the Job Centre and missed an appointment.

    It also perfectly fine that if you work hard for 10 hours a month to be paid £23,000 for spouting bile and hatred against people wearing burkhas to satisfy the most blood thirsty of Leave voting, immigrant hating Telegraph readers.

    That is “the NEW centre ground” and as I have said. I’m sure it will all be fine.

  94. galamcennalath


    “Speaking at the 50th anniversary of the Europa Institute at Edinburgh University … ”

  95. Thepnr


    It was from a speech given last night at the 50th Anniversary of the Europa Institute of the University of Edinburgh and reported in the Evening Times.

    She continued: “The end of this period of negotiation, I previously thought that would be October. It is now looking like that is more likely to be November, perhaps with a vote in the House of Commons in December.

    “So I will take a judgment depending on where we get to, set out some views on where I think we’re heading if we don’t change course, and have more to say on that that point.”

  96. CameronB Brodie

    re. dysfunctional government, austerity, Brexit and things.

    Defining and measuring quality of government

    Quality of Government and its close cousins Good Governance and State Capacity are relatively new concepts that have made a strong impact in research as well as some of the highest policy circles since the mid-1990s.
    These three concepts have received most attention in circles dealing with developing countries and the so-called transition countries (Smith 2007). Especially good governance is now used by many national development agencies and international organizations such as the World Bank and the United Nations. An example is the International Monetary Fund that in 1996 declared that “promoting good governance in all its aspects, including by ensuring the rule of law, improving the efficiency and accountability of the public sector, and tackling corruption, as essential elements of a framework within which economies can prosper” (IMF 2005).

    However, the economic and financial crises that started in October 2008 have shown that issues about “bad governance” cannot be seen only as problems for developing and transition countries but also for the highly developed parts of the world (Rothstein 2011). A case in point is that several well-placed analysts have argued that the background to the financial and economic crisis can be found in how powerful investment banks on Wall Street used their influence to relax regulatory oversight and capital requirements (Kaufmann 2008; Johnson 2009; Johnson & Kwak 2010). It should be added that available measures of quality of government and good governance show that several EU countries (notably Greece, Italy and Romania) score lower than some much poorer countries in the developing world
    (Charron, Lapuente & Rothstein 2011)….

    What Is Quality of Government?
    A Theory of Impartial Political Institutions

    The Impact of Quality of Government as Impartiality: Theory and Evidence

  97. Brian Fleming

    I must be out of touch. What is the “Sickola Sturgeon” photo at the top of the page about? It strikes as very weird.

  98. Collie

    The Tory English Prime Minister told her followers that the EU needs England far more than England needs the EU.

    Nearly choked oan ma croissant when a heard it.

  99. Thepnr


    Oops, never saw your post before I posted.

  100. Dr Jim

    As far as I’m aware no one from the Scottish government gave such a response to the SUN newspaper regarding if or when the FM will or will not respond to anything regarding announcements of any kind

    So it looks like the SUN newspaper is *let’s be generous* and say, guessing!

    I would say flat out lying

    The SNP are not talking to anyone, it must be making the press even more mental than they already are, hence the big fat lies

  101. Alba Laddie

    O/T, but just watched the speech given by the Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox, at the Tories annual bunfight and I was truly chilled by the intolerant and hectoring tone of it.

    If the SNP has any meaningful surplus funds, they should reserve them for the best legal advice money can buy when Indy ref 2 is finally called.

    These bastards will pull every trick and ruse in the book and every favour at their disposal to thwart even a fair fight in the impending vote.

    Be on your guard folks, it’s not going to be pretty.

  102. CameronB Brodie

    Dr Jim
    We’ll be having that Alert Reader badge back, ta. 😉

  103. Robert Peffers

    I’m really, really gobsmacked by this report on the text service.

    SEPA has had to begin roadside vehicle stops at Gretna to tackle cross border waste being illegally dumped in Scotland.

    Believe it or not SEPA claims the problem is hauliers coming from England, Wales and Northern Ireland to dump waste in Scotland. Mind you they didn’t mention the radioactive hulks dumped at Rosyth.

  104. Petra

    Thanks for the responses to my question at 10:06pm, folks. Amazing don’t you think that there has been no mention of this on the BBC / STV (or maybe I missed it). Then again suppression and distortion of information is par for the course with them. I wonder if anyone has been taking note of how often Dark money Davidson has appeared on the TV over the last few weeks in comparison to the First Minister of Scotland? DMD on the same BBC league level as Farage now. Quite fitting.


    @ Robert … “Dumping in Scotland.”

    Great wee country don’t you think? Rob us of our resources in conjunction with using us as a dumping ground for Nuclear weapons and the rest of the UK’s cr*p. Forget about a bridge connecting us to NIreland just get the wall up at the border with England, ASAP.

  105. Petra

    The latest in relation to Scottish oil for visitors to the site who’ve been told that there’s no oil left. Or more than likely never hear the BBC / STV mention the word at all. I wonder why?

  106. Petra

    No mention on the BBC / STV of the latest Scottish gas find either. Reported on here last week, but just a wee reminder. Poor wee Scotland right enough.

  107. Collie

    Come up for air Petra, you are going to do yourself serious damage.

    Can I recommend you stop watching BBC Scotland news and also STV news. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

    We need everyone fit for the IndyRef2 Campaign when in starts up for real.

    So, take a step back and even take a few days off from posting on Wings.

    I have seen it done it and got the tee shirt, so I am talking from experience Petra.

    The bastards in the BritNat media have one mission in life and that is to grind down Indy supporters.

    So my advice is to stop watching and listening to Scottish news bulletins.

  108. Ken500

    They are all terrified they will get sued as well. That’s the way to do it. They should stop telling lies. Lie after lie after lie. How people can vote for them, especially in Scotland is just unbelievable. Dysfunctional does not even cover it. The lies corruption and dishonesty.

    It is absolutely terrifying. Frightening that May the Tories or the rest are in any position of power. The way the unionists/MSM are carrying on is disillusioned and corrupt.. They are worse than ever. How do they get away with it? There is no justification. They are making people ill and increasing mental health problems.Just wasters. Wasting £Billions of public money.

  109. Nana

    Appalling attack on N Sturgeon, accusing of betraying Scotland over fishing. Scotland has been systematically ignored by UKGov, the Devo settlement ripped up, and conventions trampled.

    Aston Martin has been given a total of £18.8m in grants from the Welsh LABOUR Government

    This thread on TM and patriotism by a former UK Diplomat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Zimbabwe and Nigeria is worth a read

  110. Nana

    3 Blokes In A Pub… Go To GIBRALTAR (Ep 11)

    According to her conference speech, the Tories were the party of opportunity and sound finances. They were going to address abuse and hatred in politics. They were an open party, fighting anti-semitism and promoting the children of hard-working immigrants.
    If only any of it was true.

    Brexit…a cry from the Irish border

  111. Nana

    Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has warned British prime minister Theresa May that “time is running out” on securing a Brexit deal just two weeks out from the crunch October EU summit.

    Forget Brexit, we’re headed for Brino

    Brexit: the dancing of May

    Wouldn’t archive

  112. Nana

    Brexit bill could go up as new data show rise in EU budget liabilities

    Tesco planning to stockpile food over no-deal Brexit fears, supermarket admits

    Special guest John Pilger on ‘approved news,’ Syria, Iran, austerity and Julian Assange (E662)

  113. Petra

    This is absolutely ridiculous. The last march of the year, maybe the last march ever, and some nincompoops, total idiots, seem to be h*ll bent on getting us all a bad name. Grow up folks. Manny Singh shouldn’t have mentioned the subject of protests at all. What’s he thinking about? He in fact should have done his homework prior to organising this, imo. This just leaves us wide open now to so-called Independence supporters causing disruption. Please don’t get involved in this folks. Go along, enjoy yourselves and remember each and every one of us is an Ambassador for Scotland.

    ‘Protest planned ahead of AUOB march over Holyrood rally ban.’

    ”After a summer of peaceful and non-disruptive marches for independence across Scotland, the nation’s capital could witness serious disruption on Saturday as demonstrators protest against the actions of Historic Environment Scotland (HES).

    The prospect of protests in Edinburgh away from the main All Under One Banner (AUOB) march down the Royal Mile on Saturday is growing apace after quango HES would not confirm permission for the rally at the end of the march to go ahead in Holyrood Park.

    Following that decision and also HES’s eviction of the 500-mile independence walkers from Stirling Castle car park on Sunday, the National has learned that up to 2000 people are planning a sit down protest and a picnic in Princes Street prior to Saturday’s march which begins from Johnston Terrace at 1pm.

    AUOB are still hoping for a change of heart by HES, but Manny Singh who is in charge of stewarding for AUOB said he had asked for a meeting with HES and none had been forthcoming. He said: “I cannot guarantee that members of the independence movement will not take things into their own hands in protest at HES’s actions.

    “It is our opinion that the legislation cannot prevent us from gathering on public land such as Holyrood Park but HES are refusing to discuss it with us.

    “We told them that this prospect of other protests might happen and judging by social media, it now looks as though they will happen.”

    The National can reveal that one of HES’s predecessor quangos, Historic Scotland, had the same ‘non-political’ policy but did not ban then first minister Alex Salmond’s event for independence in Edinburgh Castle.

    Better Together was banned from Holyrood Park in 2014, however. Questions have also been raised as to why the policy cannot be overruled by the Scottish Government, with HES answering to Culture Minister Fiona Hyslop.

    The Scottish Government told The National all questions should be directed to HES. The National sent HES the following questions on Tuesday: Can you confirm whether or not the appropriate minister approved the policy on political events? Can you confirm that the board of HES approved it? Did the same policy apply under Historic Scotland prior to the establishment of HES?

    Can you confirm that a Vote No/Better Together event was prohibited in Holyrood Park prior to the 2014 referendum? Can you confirm that the procedure for unauthorised events is to call the police? If so, why, as the police have no role in such situations?

    Can you say how your policy conforms to the Scottish Outdoor Access code which specifically says that access should be permitted to open ground, including managed park spaces, for “activities concerned with furthering a person’s understanding of the natural or cultural heritage”?

    Have you had any members cancel their membership over the Holyrood and Stirling Castle matters? And lastly, is there any chance of a change of mind about Saturday’s rally given the safety concerns expressed by the organisers? HES said they would provide us with answers today.”

  114. Collie

    I will not even listen to a Scottish news bulletin on my car radio.

    I listen to Clyde 2 because I like their music,,,but as soon as their news comes on at the top of the hour I switch over to Talk Sport radio, because you would swear that Radio Clyde get their news straight from the Scottish Labour Party website.

  115. Fred

    Nana, will read the lynx later efter ma walk. Anent the Dark Money, if memory serves this largesse has its origins in the illegal export of waste. Dumping on an international scale!

  116. Ken500

    May and the rest of them are complete and utter fools. Even a GE might not even clear them out but that is what is coming. They exist on another planet. The £Billions of public money they are wasting is just deplorable. A dysfunctional Gov in a dysfunctional society. Charlatans and liars.

    No wonder people have to stand back trying to ignore the chaos. It is just deplorable. They could not make a bigger mess. Just as well people have the SNP in Scotland trying to mitigate the unnecessary damage. Westminster unionists are totally unhinged. A catastrophe. Liars, Only groups suing them limited stops them. The groups taking them to court for breaking International/ UN standards.

  117. Ottomanboi

    ‘News’ is a division of GCHQ. The BBC Today program is its flagship. News is now so ‘managed’ as to be simply Establishment propaganda. Scotland is being airbrushed from the scene. After Brexit, and we have not had an indieref delivering a yes, God alone knows what the system will deliver in soft and hard oppressive colonial power; Scottish nationalism, a front for Russian and Iranian military intelligence perhaps?

  118. Macart


    Cheers Nana.

    And yes, given the selection and yesterday’s speech you can say that the YES movement called it a long time ago. This is very much the dark road predicted for the UK. Massive leap in wealth disparity, the use of emergency legislative powers to ram home appallingly inhumane policies, loss of jobs and rights. Also yes. The current political class are mental enough to carry it through. Westminster’s politics has clearly and empirically taken the brakes off.

    There is an out from this madness though. It’s not going to go away unless people make it go away. They need to choose now, what kind of country they want to live in and then decide to make it happen. They can still do so at a ballot.

  119. yesindyref2

    An interesting link from that SNP conf link “Why there won’t …” gives the agenda

    and it’s interesting to see IPPR Scotland’s Russell Gunson chairing a meeting Mon 8th 12.30 to 1.30, with [1]. I’m not a member but if any member does go to that I’d be interested to see a wee summary – I liked IPPR North’s reports during the Indy Ref, and the IPPR Scotland one is a bit of a dark horse.

    Stephen Gethins MP, Shadow SNP Spokesperson for International Affairs and Europe
    Michael Russell MSP, Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations
    Professor Nicola McEwen, Associate Director, Centre on Constitutional Change
    Professor Anand Menon, Director, The UK in a Changing Europe.

    Anyways, no surprise at all Indy Ref 2 is not on the agenda, nor that Sturgeon’s update is delayed because May’s negotiations are going so well – not.

  120. Petra

    Thanks for the links Nana X


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon’s bespoke Brexit arrangement backed by top expert.’

    He (Anand Menon, Professor of European Politics at King’s College London), also discussed the issue of when people should know if there will be a no deal scenario – a factor influencing the First Minister’s plans for a second independence referendum – stating the latest date would be January 21.


    ‘Roll of honour: Ten Scottish women who fought for the right to vote.’

    …”Even in this year of centenary celebrations of women being granted the right to vote, much of the publicity has centred on the London-based supporters of the suffrage movement.

    Attempts are now being made to address this by Glasgow Women’s Library which is embarking on several initiatives to highlight and celebrate the lives of Scottish women who were in the vanguard of those who fought for the right of women to vote in the UK. Funding support is being given by the Scottish Government.”..


    ‘Fears over ‘sinister influence’ of Yemen-linked arms firm in Scottish schools.’

    ..”Other arms multinationals teaching children include Leonardo, Thales and US company Raytheon, which has made smart bombs in Fife linked to alleged war crimes in Yemen.”..

    ..”A section on the Cold War asks children to look at a picture of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima by America, while posing the question: “If you were a Russian, what would you think?”’

  121. Ken500

    Honest to goodness. Who on Earth is buying the MSM trash. It is just unbelievable. The Con Conference. After the Murdoch criminality. They are still at it. Lie after lie after lie.

    Thanks to all the marchers on Saturday.

  122. One_Scot

    ‘The bastards in the BritNat media have one mission in life and that is to grind down Indy supporters.’

    Well said. The sooner we all understand that the better. Let them talk to themselves.

  123. Petra

    @ Collie says at 7:16 am …. ”Come up for air Petra, you are going to do yourself serious damage. Can I recommend you stop watching BBC Scotland news and also STV news. Your blood pressure must be through the roof. We need everyone fit for the IndyRef2 Campaign when in starts up for real….
    So my advice is to stop watching and listening to Scottish news bulletins.”

    Thanks for the show of concern Collie, your advice, however there’s no need to worry about me. My blood pressure stands at 120 / 80 …. perfect!

    I only need, thrive on, 4 hours sleep per day, so I have 20 hours to fill and have used X amount of hours daily since 2013 working my butt off for the Independence movement, well beyond this site. The campaign, for real, has never stopped for me … and many others.

    I’ll come up for air on the day that we become Independent and until that time (not long to go now) I’ll continue to watch the news to ensure that I’m aware of what’s going on and report on it, on here and elsewhere.

  124. galamcennalath

    The Independent … “RBS chief executive Ross McEwan has warned that a no-deal Brexit could push the UK into recession”

    No shit, Sherlock!

    This is news?

  125. Baldeagle58

    Morning Nana.

    Some great Links, as always, from yourself.

    Hope you’re keeping well. 🙂

  126. Ken500

    May, the puppet, among the muppets but these are extremely dangerous people. Trying to cause another world recession. Lying their pockets on pubic money. A bunch of wasters. It really is totally deplorable.

  127. Ottomanboi

    The kleptocratic Saudi régime is doing what the West claimed the Syrian government was doing to the ‘liberators’, and doing it most ‘effectively’ with western hardware. The naked hypocrisy of the Russia/Iran wicked, West good mantra is stunning….but perhaps not.

  128. Macart

    @Thepnr 10.13

    Couldn’t agree more. They attempting to shift perception of the centre ground and acceptable norms of behaviour. They’ve been doing it for a very long time t’boot. Care and compassion are for tree hugging, lefty, Marxist, herbal tea drinkers. Not, y’know, a mark of decent, reasoning, civilised humanity. Oh, and that’s regardless of your background or origin.

    This new centre ground narrative is about pigeonholing and quantifying your humanity and your right to existence, nevermind residence. They can feck right off with that idea.

    People are defined by themselves. By the choices they make, the words they say and the actions they take. I’d say the Tories have done a bang up job of letting the wider world know EXACTLY what they stand for and how they define themselves.

    I can say from the heart of my bottom, (and with immense pride), that I will NEVER be a Tory.

  129. Scot Finlayson

    In magic Misdirection is a form of deception in which the attention of an audience is focused on one thing in order to distract its attention from another,

    how many people talking about May`s speech or even Brexit,

    it`s all about the mad dance, which she found in South Africa was a great way to distract the UK deadbeat media,

    Boris does it all the time (not dance) but comes up with a bridge scheme that is just bonkers,but gets the deadbeat media distracted from him being a total and utter rogue.

  130. Cubby

    Throughout the world proper journalists risk their lives to report the truth.

    What have we got in Scotland – propaganda writers who are paid to rubbish Scotland by foreign owned media.

    The people who churn out this propaganda are the lowest of the low. They go home every evening knowing that they take money to write propaganda. Totally lacking in professional integrity.

    BRITISH NATIONALISTS OWN THE MEDIA IN SCOTLAND and appoint British Nationalists to run the media. The BBC is the British states own propaganda broadcaster.

  131. Ottomanboi

    Conference agenda…independence ultra-ultralite.
    SNP great at devolved government and stuff but….
    Unless, of course, the leadership intend to spring a surprise initiative when the time comes. That time being when the EU tells the British State rien, nichts, nada, niente on the table; just GO!

  132. Collie

    Take care Petra.

    When I said” Campaign for real…” I was meaning once we have a date.

    But I know what you mean when you say the Campaign has never stopped. I never leave the house without my wristbands and badges on.

    And since I stopped watching the mince they label as Scottish news, I find I am not walking about constantly angry.

    But maybe that is just me.

  133. Welsh Sion

    So, I learn that Tavish Scott has succeeded in making a law that makes it illegal to put Shetland in a box.

    Can we now look to him proposing a law that makes it illegal to put Scots back in the box post Indy Ref 1?

    I won’t hold my breath.

  134. Greannach

    Collie @ 9:30 am

    It’s not just you. I haven’t watched or listened Scottish “news” for years now, and it does wonders for my wellbeing. I find it hard to believe I ever did watch that parochial, parish-pump drivel for so long.

    EuroNews is in the process of trashing itself down but there’s still France 24 and Al Jazeera.

  135. Collie

    Cubby 9.24am


    There,,,sorted that for you Cubby lol.

  136. manandboy

    I know it is only the tiniest of details in the public perception , but even the IMF (International Monetary Fund) are now warning publicly that global economic collapse is a very real prospect.

    Add Brexit to such a collapse and Scottish independence becomes an absolute imperative.

    But only if the electorate know that, which they don’t and won’t, thanks to Westminster’s State propaganda machinery.
    Even then, it is unlikely that the British Nationalist population here in Scotland will change their minds about their precioussss Union.

    Oh, BTW, Westminster’s plans to stockpile food and medicines will be for the benefit of the ruling classes, the Civil Service, then the police and the military, then for hospitals, and so on. The general population will be last on the list.

    We could be about to step into Armageddon.

    But please, don’t just take my word for it. Christine Lagarde, Head of the IMF, is talking in these terms.

    The Guardian gives us a glimpse.

  137. Ken500

    The Hacks are scared they will get sued so they are setting up the would be politicians for it. Printing the nonsense, It is the only way to curb some of the lies. Suing them.

    In a Independent Scotland the MSM hacks would be out of a job and they know it. That is why they are so agin it. They would rather print a pack of lies. If they can get a bunch of people daft enough to pay for it. Ditto Pollsters. Making illegal money for multimillionaires. Tax evading Non Doms. May etc will not do anything about it because they are in on it. Evil bastards. Cambridge Analytica going in the Downing Street back door. So much for the hypocrites. Give them enough rope etc. There will probably be a GE. Even that is not a guarantee to get rid of them.

    Another IndyRef after that. Get out and vote SNP/SNP at every opportunity. The only choice Scotland has left to stand up for Scotland.

  138. Donald Bruce

    Bit off topic but hiring London lawyer may become the normal after Westminster negotiations what was Scottish law via the EU. Negotiations will be set for say fishing standard in English law. Which will if in future challenge in English courts.. Not Scottish as present.

  139. Cubby

    Collie @9.42am


    There sorted it for you Collie. ?????

    Except it is not really a funny situation. It’s a bloody disgrace. Modern day colonial control.

  140. Lenny Hartley

    O/T Brexit , there has been some mummering that the UK will seek to remain in the Customs Union (albeit temporary) after March 2019, I think this highly likely, its not only Ireland that has a border with the EU but also Gibralter and the Sovereign base areas in Cyprus.
    I checked on google maps and the Episkopi base which is part of the Akrotiri Sovereign Base Area has five seperate crossing points into Cypriot Territory. They (the UK) have bases at Episkopi, Akrotiri, Dheikilia and Troodos. So its not only Ireland that has a land border with the EU.
    I think they will try and negotiate a deal which will give an extension to staying in the Customs Union and the ability to negotiate Trade deals with other countries.

  141. gus1940

    I reckon that yesterday’s speech by the Dancing Maybot was the opening salvo in a GE Campaign.

  142. Ken500

    Any attack on the Scottish legal system will be quite illegal, under International Laws. Groups will sue Westminster. . It will further break the Union. Scotland was guaranteed a separate legal system, church/education system and to be treated equally, under the terms of the Act of Union. Under Scottish Law the people in Scotland are sovereign. That is why if people vote for it there is a mandate. To have another IndyRef. People have to vote for it. Just vote SNP/SNP. Until every food bank is gone in Scotland. Vulnerable people will not be sanctions and starved etc. A more equal fair country.

    Scottish resources have been taken illegally. The Oil sector is still taxed at 40% since Jan 2016. 30% Corporation tax + 10% supplementary. High Tory taxes destroying resources. It has been going on since 2010. When the price had fallen 75% it was taxed at 62%. The Tory/unionists have destroyed the fishing industry for over forty years. They should have been using bigger nets. Instead of throwing dead fish back for years. Destroying the industry. The Scottish Gov through representation was sorting it out. Increasing net sizes and quotas. Some folk in the NE went and voted Tory or did not vote at all. Improving terms and conditions would improve the industry.

    Scotland will lose £8Billion (a year?) because of Brexit.

    The UK raise £628Billion in taxes. Raised another £92Billion. There is no need for these cuts and austerity. Scotland raises £60Billion (more pro rata) Dues it get credited with the 1/12 (raised in Scotland?) of the £92Billion. (£7.5Billion). Doubt it. (UK /Scottish Gov) accounts. There is absolutely no need for austerity. Dragging the economy down. Cutting essential service funding. Universal Credit was just to target cuts on the most vulnerable. Unfair and unnecessary. Cruel. Yet spending £Billions on HS2 and Hinkley Point a total waste of money. With better, cheaper, alternatives. The Westminster liars have not got a clue. They are causing an increase in mental health problems with their behaviour. People are worried and anxious. Especially because of Brexit.

    Scotland could make £Billions in resources instead of it disappearing south. Scotland pays more pro rata for fuel and energy despite being in surplus and nearer the source. Scotland is colder. Scotland should pay 10% less per unit for parity. Scotland is in surplus in resources. Fuel, food and energy. Higher exports pro rata. A more balanced economy. Smaller balance of payments deficit. Less debts.

    Instead of stupid, horrendous dancing. Like a lunatic. Just ridiculous. An affront to the society.

  143. orri

    Noticed on the news last night that there seems to be a unstated change to a any deal being better than no deal.

  144. ScottishPsyche

    There is a desperate undertone of ‘somebody must do something about him’ in most of the articles.

    I found WoS through Ragin Kevin. I was listening to Radio Scotland and he was on talking over someone from Business for Scotland. I could not believe his sneery and dismissive tone. That Muttley laugh and he said he had registered his dog as a business and implied all the businesses were worthless small fry in contrast to big Yoon business. His tone has not changed at all since then.

    I looked him up and came across his spats with WoS and decided that I would make my mind up myself if WoS was the devil incarnate. I did not post for ages but read everything I could on both sides.

    We all know how it went from then on.

    For me, the most disappointing aspect of the post indy landscape is the resentment from some voices that they should make a better living out of it than they have. As if it is WoS’ fault that we don’t want their product or to read their stuff. The RiSE and fall of the indy Left was predictable as they hitched their wagon to Corbyn and told us all we weren’t socialist enough to deserve Independence and that if they could not have Indy their way it isn’t worth having.

    But throughout it all, the Press in all their spitting, mendacious fury have had to see that WoS has endured. This is echoed by the chattering sneery swithering Indies who pollute the airwaves, social media and print press. They hate WoS and have tried so many ways to destroy it. We cannot let that happen as a point of principle.

  145. manandboy

    The bottom line concerning Theresa May’s awkward and cringe worthy attempts at dancing, is to do with her ability to communicate personal authority.

    She has none.

  146. galamcennalath

    Brexit ‘negotiations’ – when will the UK accept the reality of the situation? Soon possibly.

    The EU hasn’t changed positions and won’t. They will not compromise the single market by allowing the UK to acquire an unfair advantage by cherry picking. And they won’t set up some new complex and expensive arrangements to accommodate the UK who is leaving.

    There are two different but established models ‘Canada’ or ‘Norway’. The UK choosing either would be acceptable to the EU. And there will be scope of tweeking.

    Whatever comes out of this, will be one of those, in essence.

    Anyways, at this stage the statement on future trade is non binding. The object is to get a backstop and a Withdrawal Agreement then transition period.

    Getting past the DUP and WM is another matter!

    The EU’s role is to throw the sticks. The UK’s is to run and pick them up.

  147. TheBuchanLoony

    Lenny Hartley…Any ‘deal’ that involves staying in the customs union will also involve staying with free movement of people. The EU will insist on that and free movement will not be acceptable to the Britnats so no chance of customs union.

  148. Robert Louis

    I caught a session from the Tory conference on TV last night, regarding the devolved nations (as they put it). That vacuous character, Mundell was there.

    Sadly I decided to watch it. Mundell spent the whole time either quoting Davidson or telling folks what Davidson had done. What a sad wee individual he is.

    However, the really important part is this. At the end, in summary, Tory boy from England David Liddington, said that every single department of Westminster Government must act to strengthen the union, in every thing they do and say. He was quite emphatic. Now, what that really means is to thwart Scottish democracy and an end to English colonial rule of Scotland.

    I do hope the Scottish Government were paying attention, and will do EXACTLY the same in their actions to further end the union and strengthen the desire for independence. Westminster is essentially abusing its powers to thwart Scottish democracy, it is high time the Scottish Government started doing the same to strengthen independence.

    They could make a good start by telling the British nationalist placemen at HES to either stop banning the saltire and other pro indy matters, such as the Edinburgh post march assembly, or get their P45.

    Getting tired of the Scotgov pretending it is nothing to do with them. The Scotiish Government can overrule HES AT ANY TIME.

    London is not prepared to play by the rules. Neither should the Scottish Government. London has created a ‘free for al’ do as you care attitude to Scotland, so the Scottish Government should follow their lead and do the same.

    This is a right dirty fight from London to hold on to their Scottish colony. Time for those in power up here to start pushing back hard. And YES, cause right old stooshie, at every turn.

  149. Welsh Sion

    Donald Bruce says:

    4 October, 2018 at 10:09 am

    Bit off topic but hiring London lawyer may become the normal after Westminster negotiations what was Scottish law via the EU. Negotiations will be set for say fishing standard in English law. Which will if in future challenge in English courts.. Not Scottish as present.


    The BBC did just that recently with regards to Stu’s YouTube uploads, by-passing BBC Northern Colonies in the process. Remember?

  150. manandboy

    That Westminster’s attempts at Brexit negotiations appear to be without forethought, preparation, organisation or co-operation, might appear to be the product of gross incompetence across an entire group of politicians and their advisors.
    And in addition, to then be able to completely obscure their true intentions from everyone here in the UK as well as in the EU, may likewise be down to incompetence.

    Or it may be quite deliberate.

    But if it is all quite deliberate, then I suspect we are all in for a very nasty shock. Nicola, take care, the English like to have the ace of treachery up their sleeve.

  151. Socrates MacSporran

    A lot of chat just now about the “Canada” or “Norway” models for a post-Brexit deal.

    I have always understood, since the UK abandoned EFTA (Norway) for the EU, EFTA would be less than willing to welcome them back.

    This view is compounded by the fact, the UK market, even with Scotland in it, is so-much larger than the markets of the other EFTA members such as Norway and Switzerland, it would disrupt things.

    I have seen it written, Scotland, if it could not hold onto or quickly get back into the EU, being a better fit, would get into EFTA and get a Norwegian-style deal right away – where England would not.

  152. Ken500

    The Tories and the other unionists are living in cuckoo land. The shambles of the Conferences. Reports coming out. Horrendous.

    Scotland the only country in the EU/world prohibited from flying the flag. At proms and other gatherings. Illegally.

    It is just unbelievable sanctioning and starving people for £20 a week. Wasting £Billions of public money on grotesque monstrosities of no value with no business case. Cutting essential services and deliberately destroying the economy. Putting it to the brink, carvproduction down 1/5. While May tries to dance around like an idiot. An affront to civilised people.

  153. Nana

    Morning Macart, it’s all coming along just as they planned all along. I don’t know who is advising the Maybot, dancing onto a stage whilst her policies are hitting the most vulnerable makes me wonder if she has a brain at all.
    To not even consider how that would come across just shows the level of contempt she is willing to convey.
    Well having read some foreign media this morning they are not impressed, to the UK’s media however she is the dancing queen.
    Journalists fawning over this shitshow should hang their heads in shame but they won’t.

    Hubby is going to the conf, not sure if he’s planning to go along to the IPPR meeting but if he does no doubt we’ll get to hear about it.

    Morning Baldeagle58 I’m a wee bitty cranky due to a bad headache and loss of sleep. I do need at least 6hrs kip or I get a lot crankier 🙂

    For those saying they don’t watch or listen to the britnat media, a wise man told me a long time ago “if you don’t keep an eye on those at the top of the tree, prepare to be pooped on from a great height”

    If Stu wasn’t prepared to listen, watch the media and take their lies apart, where would that leave us?

    One more link for today

  154. Cubby

    Tory says Tories are arseholes. Some self awareness at last.

    Ross Thomson = Tory Bampot.

  155. Fred

    The dancing Queen appears to have two legs down the one knicker!

    HES are a disgrace, time to cleanse the Augean Stables & the SFA ditto!

  156. Meg merrilees


    I agree – all this incompetence is incompetence but it serves a dual purpose. If there is no clear detail then Nicola is hampered in choosing her moment and they will try to control that as best they can to catch us all out. They are notorious for having the nasty cards tucked up their sleeves and this government will get nasty.

    I read this morning that T May is now, apparently, trying to get a temporary deal whereby all of the UK ( which means not just N. Ireland) would stay in the Customs Union to prevent any tariffs and, of course, a hard border in Ireland. So she wants a deal where goods can travel freely but EU citizens can’t!!!

    Don’t think the EU will accept that but it would possibly hamper Nicola’s argument whilst we wait to see if the proposal will go through.

    October 18/19 I think is when T May has to go back to Europe with her final offer so not long now; the court case about reversing Article 50 is not due to pronounce before Christmas and T May is supposed to be trying to railroad her deal through WM before then – within two weeks after the opening of Parliament.

    Nicola is on G. Election standby it would seem so covering her options.

    Lots going on between Edinburgh’s march and Christmas – better check those seat belt fastenings, it’s gonna be bumpy!

  157. Daisy Walker

    O/T Re AUOB Holyrrod Park RIGHTS OF WAY (this will be quite long)

    The following information may be of use. I’ve culled the information as best I can from legal text. It is not the full story, and I take no ownership or responsibility for it.

    In Scotland the creation of public rights of way used to depend entirely on Common Law, as posed to statutory. Under common law a right of way may be created either by express grant or by usage.

    Rights of way do not confer automatic right to access with horses, bicycles and motor vehicles!

    Public rights of way were usually established by their continuous use since time immemorial but defined legally in 1973 as 20 years.

    The essential requirements for creation of a right of way under common law are as follows:

    1/ The track (will be defined further) must run from one public place to another public place

    2/ The track (again will be defined further) most follow a more or less defined route

    3/ The track must have been used openly and peaceably by members of the public, otherwise than with the permission, express or implied of the landowner

    4/ It must have been used without substantial or effective interuption for a period of 20 years or more.

    The right of way comes into existence or is ‘constituted’ from the moment these essential requirements are met. There is no need for any formal legal or administrative procedure. A legal decree relating to a right of way is declaratory and not constitutive of its existence and the law at present (2003 info) provides no admin process by which the existent of a ROW is confirmed.

    Even if the essential requirements are met there is a qualifier. If land is owned by a ‘statutory’ undertaker e.g. Railways, rights of way may be stopped.

    Detail – One Public Place to another Public Place

    Rights of public way over land from a place where the public are entitled to be to another place where the public are entitled to be. As from one part of a public road to another part of a public road.

    A private road may for this purpose be a public place, if it proved the public have unrestricted access to it.


    (Exceptions – bus or railway stations can be closed at certain times, and are therefore not considered public places for the purposes of rights of way)

    Under Scots Law the FORESHORE BELONGS TO THE CROWN and the public generally have a right to walk along it, but a part of the foreshore can be described as a public place for the purposes of ROW Only if the public have been in the habit of resorting to it for the loading or unloading of vessels, or fishing, OR SOME OTHER DEFINITE PURPOSE. The REGULAR USE OF THE FORESHORE BY MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC FOR THE PURPOSES OF RECREATION MAY BE SUFFICIENTLY DEFINITE PURPOSE IN THIS CONTEXT.

    Definition A More or Less Defined Route

    It has been said ‘ the privilege of wandering upon the face of an unclosed hill, though it be for half a century, will not confer a right of way’.

    IT IS NOT NECESSARY HOWEVER, TO PROVE THAT THE PUBLIC HAVE FOLLOWED A DEFINITIVE PATH OR TRACK as opposed to a more or less consistent and generally defined line.
    It has been explained, ‘ In many instances in Scotland, where there are moors to be passed over, the public have right of way, and yet they may have used 20 different lines for going from one terminus to another, taking the one they liked the best or found most suitable, in the state of the ground and of the weather.’

    The Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 (Approved by Scottish Parliament 1/7/2004)

    Section 1 Access Rights

    Everyone has the statutory right to be on land (*** there are some exceptions), or (for the purposes below) to cross land.
    The right may be excessed only:
    for recreational purposes
    for the purposes of carrying on a relevant educational activity, or
    for the purposes of carrying on commercially or for profit, an activity the person exercising the right would normally do (e.g. wildlife photography)

    ‘relevant educational activity’ is defined as an activity which is carried out for the purpose of furthering the persons understanding of NATURAL OR CULTURAL HERITAGE, or enabling or assisting any other pistons to understand their natural or culturaly heritage.

    S2 Access rights to be exercised responsibly – so as not to cause Unreasonable interference with any of the rights of any other person.

    S 28 Judicial determination of existence and extent of access rights and rights of way
    Applications can be made to the sheriff to declare whether:

    Land is exempt or not from access rights
    a person is exercising access rights responsibly
    an owner is managing land responsibly
    a path is a right of way

    Key Terms/ Definitions within the legislation

    OUTDOORS – This term included mountains, moorland, farmland (enclosed and unenclosed) forest, woods, rivers, lochs and reservoirs, beaches and the coastline, AND OPEN SPACES IN TOWNS AND CITIES.’

    Part 2 Access Rights
    1. Everyone, whatever their age or ability, has access rights established by the Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 You only have these rights if you exercise them responsibly.

    2. You can exercise these rights, provided you do so responsibly, over most land and inland water in Scotland, including mountains, woods, forest, grassland, margins of fields in which crops are growing, paths and tracks, rivers and lochs, the coast, AND MOST PARKS AND OPEN SPACES. The rights can be exercised at any time of the day or night.

    3. You can exercise access rights for recreational purposes (such as pastimes, family and social activities, and more active pursuits like horse riding, cycling, wild camping and TAKING PART IN EVENTS), educational purposes (concerned with furthering a persons understanding of the natural and CULTURAL HERITAGE), some commercial purposes (e.g. photography, hillwalking guide, etc).

    5. The main places where access rights to not apply are:
    houses and gardens and non residential buildings and associated land
    Land in which crops are growing
    land next to and used by schools
    sports and playing fields WHEN IN USE and access would interfere with this
    places like airfields, railways, working queries, etc
    Visitor attractions or other places WHICH CHARGE FOR ENTRY

    6 Local authorities can formally exempt land from access rights for short periods, then can also introduce bylaws.

    7 Access rights do not extend to
    being on or crossing land for the purpose of doing anything which is an offence
    any form of motorised recreation or passage (except disability vehicles)
    Dogs out of control
    Anyone taking something from the land for commercial purposes

    S 2.2 Where and when you can exercise access rights

    Everyone, whatever their age or ability, can exercise access rights over most land and inland water in Scotland, at any time of the day or night, provided they do so responsibly. (These rights do not extend to all places or all activities).

    You can access these rights in places such as:

    hill, mountains moorland
    woods and forests
    rives, lochs, canals and reservoirs
    On grass sports or playing fields when not in use, and no land or inland water developed or set out for a recreational purpose, unless the access would interfere with that purpose.

    S2.6 You can exercise these rights for recreational purposes, some educational activities and certain commercial activities, and for crossing over land and water.

    s2.7 Recreational purposes is not defined in the legislation, but is taken to include:

    Pastimes such as watching wildlife, sightseeing, painting, photography and ENJOYING HISTORIC SITES

    Family and social activities, such as taking short walks, dog walking, picnics, playing, sledging, paddling and flying a kite


    To Summarise a wee bit.

    Holyrood Park even though the property (in trust) of the Crown, has been used openly, peacefully, and continuously since time immemorial (and certainly in the last 20 years0 by members of the public going from one public place, to another.

    In addition, it has been used by them for recreational purposes, such as short walks, photography, kite flying, educational purposes of learning about natural and cultural heritage, and it forms in its own entity – a public place.

    Although it is an owned and managed historic visitor site, the park itself is not exempt from public access, or from the The Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 (Approved by Scottish Parliament 1/7/2004) Access Rights – as no payment is made to enter.

    Not to put to fine a point on it, as far as I can establish, there appears to be a very strong legal claim of rights of access to Holyrood Park, and HES would need to apply to the Scottish Government or Local Authority to have these temporarily removed. The AUOB is unlikely to fit the requirements for approval.

    Any arguments about potential for trouble at the march would not stand legal scrutiny given the exemplary behaviour in the previous ones, and the right to form peaceful assembly is also legally protected by EU Human Rights legislation – which our Police Officers are legally obliged to uphold.

    I hope the above is of some assistance. I got a lot of the info from the Scottish Rights Of Way Society and Scot Gov legislation

    Ultimately if the above is correct, a legal challenge on this aspect will have far more long lasting consequences, than a protest in Princes Street.

    See you all at the march. Best wishes to all.

  158. Jack Murphy

    Cubby said at 11:58am:

    “Tory says Tories are arseholes. Some self awareness at last.

    Ross Thomson = Tory Bampot.”

    The Tory MP for Aberdeen South as reported by STV:

    “……….Thomson also praised the former foreign secretary on STV’s Scotland Tonight programme following the speech.

    He said: “The great thing about this conference is that the Prime Minister has been able to hear, loudly and clearly from the grassroots of the party, that they are unhappy with Chequers.

    Thomson added: “You saw the reaction that Boris got in the hall today, which was absolutely overwhelming – standing ovations as he came in and as he left and applause throughout.”………….”

    All is not well in Ruth Davidson’s North Britain Toryland.

  159. Meg merrilees


    re Saturday’s march

    THIS WHOLE HES STUNT IS A WIND UP to try and provoke us to get angry and create a disturbance ..

    They are desperate to get us to be disruptive and violent so they can ban the marches and all ‘protests’

    Take a leaf from Catalonia.

    Throw only roses and give a smile to all.

    We want a better future not more of the same old same old…

    There must not be any violence on saturday though Lord knows they will provoke us.

  160. Macart


    No, it didn’t come across well at all. Dancing while most folk are either on their last crust or nerve.

    Just sayin’. It’s not as if we didn’t see this coming.

  161. Lenny Hartley

    Thebuchanloon, your wrong mate being a member of the Customs union does not mean you have to adhere to the four freedoms, The single market is the agreement that encompasses the free movement of people, services, capital and goods.

  162. Gary

    I have actually read SOME of that lot, but I’m not trawling through all of it, there’s just TOO much.

    And that’s a good point, why IS THERE too much?

    In the reports I’ve seen little mention is made of the case itself, the story is ALL about how the funding’s been pulled.

    So why is that even a story?? Why does anyone care? Truthfully, I don’t think the public, regardless of political affiliation, give a ‘hoot’ about this whatever.

    The people who DO care are the newspaper’s owners. This is being reported as how Kezia is being done wrong in a case about a ‘gay slur’ So, the public think you have ‘slurred her’ for being gay and she has taken action against you (because nowhere will it tell them otherwise, and, not mentioning something means you’re not ACTUALLY telling a lie, doesn’t it?) So this is the PERFECT reason to ‘bash Corbyn’ who is universally hated (except by those people who voted him in and supported him through the anti-Semitism smear campaign of course, but they’re ONLY voters and as such, don’t matter) well, by the BBC and the Tories anyway.

    Poor Kezia!! The bad man took away the money tree and now she’ll have to say sorry to the bad man who she slagged off and lied about, forgetting she can’t do that in print because her priveleges only stretch SO far…

  163. Liz g

    Meg Merrilees @ 12.55
    Well said Meg.. totally agree.
    Westminster must be laughing their arse off at this.
    A Scot on Scot row and they didn’t have to lift a finger to get it started.

    I don’t know who is playing who here …..but thinking it through, are we really demanding that All and it would have to be All Scottish Monuments are opened up to All campaigns?

    This is as best bad event planning and AUOB (likeKessia) can’t admit they messed up..
    Or someone with an agenda is playing the Yes campaign for their own ends…
    I’m having nothing to do with this shit.. I’m not being a part of our Historic monuments being opened up to Britain First and the OO and suchlike, I don’t think we should be opening that door!!

    If we as a movement had any sense… we should be working out how to Politicise this festival of the UK that’s been proposed… so that if we are not out the Union by then!!!
    They don’t get to use the HES property either…
    I’m not going to give any attention to changing HES policy, because it does nothing to get us out this bloody Union!!
    It’s Westminster and only Westminster that we should be looking at!!

    And for the avoidance of doubt…
    I am a HES member and I have a fair idea of what they do.

  164. Thepnr


    The dancing Queen appears to have two legs down the one knicker!

    Cheers for that! A great start to the day 🙂 🙂

  165. Nana

    @Macart, yes, its all there in your blogpost. Step by step to a Tory hell on earth. Shudder.

    A few links whilst I’m here

    See here for updates on Irish Taoiseach /Donald tusk meeting this morning

    Apologies if this has been posted already

    Interview with named organiser Gary Kelly AUOB

  166. ronnie anderson


    [The dancing Queen appears to have two legs down the one knicker! ] and sumbody should Nick her as offence to dancing. She wid hey been a wallflower in that all girl private school she wiz in LoL.

  167. Fred

    @ Ronnie, imagine Theresa at the Barrowland back in the day?

    @ Daisy, the Scottish Rights of Way Society designated a Right of Way from north of Dalwhinnie through to near Aberarder. They put up signs at either end & yours truly walked this maybe 15 years ago. These people had obviously never walked this route themselves, there was no path, it was horrendous, hands & knees through forestry plantations & the only way out was down a burn & no broken glass to cut your wrists. The sign is still there!

  168. Thepnr

    @Daisy Walker

    You’ve confirmed what I believed to be the case no matter the views of HES those that attend the march cannot be prevented from wandering all over Holyrood Park if they choose to do so.

    The point though is that, is this the issue? I don’t believe it is and it’s all about the “right” to have a stage erected for speakers and music also the stalls that we have become used to seeing at other marches.

    It is this that the HES are objecting to and have refused permission for. Is this within their remit?

    I have no idea of the legal position to be honest but common sense tells me that this is likely to be the case, even street vendors like hot dog stalls and burger vans need to be licensed and normally have to pay to pitch their stalls even on public ground.

    Take the Arbroath Seafest event which takes place every year in a public park, Wings had a stall at that event in 2014 so too did Better Together but we both had to pay for it.

    It’s an interesting one right enough and of course I believe HES were wrong to refuse permission and that it was a political decision made by senior management and the board. Problem is that it’s a bit late in the day to be challenging that position though it’s worth trying as this is good publicity for the Independence movement when others can see our civil liberties are being restricted by such bodies.

    Conversely it will be very bad publicity in my opinion if some kind of planned protest like a sit-down in Princess Street goes ahead. Why give the British Nationalists more ammunition as to the “divisiveness” of the nasty nats?

    I won’t be joining in on any protest, I will be there on the march and finishing at Holyrood Park and there is nothing anybody will do to try and prevent that. We need to use the head here and not allow the Yes movement to be set up as a bunch of goons.

    I also wouldn’t expect that many of those attending the march on buses from Forfar or Freuchie, Glenrothes or Galashiels will be doing so either. Like me they’ll be going there to encourage others to join our cause in regaining Scotland’s Independence.

    We mustn’t allow obstacles from HES or others to divert us either.

  169. Petra

    @ Meg at 12:55pm and Liz g at 1:30pm …… “Edinburgh March.”

    Totally agree with both of you. Someone at AUOB CLEARLY messed this up and either someone in their ranks or someone, outwith, with the ability to pull their strings is using this event in the hope of creating absolute havoc.

    Like Liz I don’t want to see ALL and sundry take over these sites. Not everyone is our enemy and sheer commonsense tells you that rules and regulations often have to be adhered to. We don’t want to see the independence movement descend into mob rule. My way or the highway. It’s high time people got real. Got off of their high horse. More than anything don’t let’s be daft enough to fall for this ploy. Do what the Scots are best known for, that is having a good time and being civilised, sociable and helpful.

    And as Liz says stay focused on Westminster. Keep our eye on the ball.

    P.S. If the following comments can be attributed to Manny Singh, AUOB, he needs his bl**dy head examined. He’s threatening HES and in the process inciting trouble, imo. If anything, if he has come across talk of protests he should be condemning, quashing them, immediately. His comments also leave us all open now to Unionists pretending to be supporters and causing trouble (expect to see the MSM out in force). He also comes across as being a bit of a powermonger, petty, naive and vindictive. When it all settles down I may make my own protest to him about his own actions.

    “I can’t guarantee that members of the independence movement won’t take things into their own hands in protest at HES’s actions.”

  170. Petra

    And out of curiosity can anyone tell me where the Orange Order end up following marches in Edinburgh? It clearly isn’t / hasn’t been Holyrood Park, so wherever it was could that (place) not have been factored into our March?

  171. defo

    The nearest shop selling Buckie. 😉

  172. ronnie anderson

    Manny Singh Auob are advocating confrontation on Sat with Sit downs ect I fervently hope that no Yessers take any part in these idiots plans , we’ve worked long & hard to get the GrassRoots movement on a civil footing , dont let these fuckers destroy years of hard work .

    Take to Social Media & let them know they are not the GrassRoots movement .

  173. Liz g

    Ronnie & Petra
    Well said thanks for some voices of sanity.
    I’m encouraging everyone I can to have no part of this nonsense.
    I’m actually surprised that we are getting to march through the park, but it must be a crowd control thing!
    But nevertheless can I also point out that The Craig it’s self is classed as a National Monument….a SCOTTISH National Monument….and therefore needs to be treated accordingly!!

    And also point out that any event organisers should have an alternative plan.
    Didn’t the route get changed in Glasgow because of the numbers?
    So why was the alternative plan to reverse the March rejected… we could have had a fantastic rally there and ended on a impressive success!!!
    As long as you are not looking at a rammy as a success…

    In the Indy Live interview it was claimed AUOB applied in MARCH to use the park.
    Well that means they had the application pack in which are HES rules for the use of their properties.
    So they have known since March ( or they should have) the Park couldn’t be used!!!
    If this march doesn’t go well then the current AUOB committee should step aside and leave it to those who have the ability to see the big picture and compromise or at the very least the ability to read application rules….

  174. ronnie anderson

    liz g Dont believe a word of anyone in Auob Gary Kelly saying he wasn’t a member of Auob until 2016 ( it must hiv been a doppelganger that was sitting beside me a Glasgow City council arranging Glasgow Green .

    Singh & Mackay have always been out for confrontation to boost numbers, anyone getting caught up in their scheming deserves whats coming to them .

    GrassRooters Yous have been warned over the many marches Dont do as the Idiots do .

  175. ronnie anderson

    Just another Yesser who has suffered abuse from Singh/Mackay for daring to question them .

    Marion Hailse Plunkett
    4 hrs

    Honestly!!! ? Who needs enemies when those who claim to be on “your side” are so adept at screwing all your hard work ???

    I don’t personally know Manny Singh…but his comments in the National are less than reassuring. HE IS RESPONSIBLE for the security of the march and the marchers… IT’S HIS JOB to ensure that no-one/group leaves the agreed route to create disruption elsewhere.

    The YES family has worked hard to maintain our friendly and open gatherings… working with local authorities and Police Scotland to ensure our events go off without confrontation with ANYONE.

    Now some wee cleek of impatient loudmouths are churning up calls for civil disruption and without a care for the consequences, promoting it as part of what has the potential to be the biggest physical gathering of pro-independence Scots in history ?

    Well sorry…but if anyone wants to be a dick and support this stupidity then they won’t be doing it in my name! This shite with HES is nothing new. They’ve been black-balling anything truly Scottish since they were established…and frankly… I expected as much from them given that they’re mostly run by non-Scottish royalists & unionists ?

    We are on the verge of independence. We will be taking control of our historic sites soon enough! Cancel your membership in the meantime… boycott HES properties after Saturday or even make a point of getting the family into the car in Yes t-shirts and flags and go pose at as many HES locations as you can but take a picnic and don’t give them a penny.

  176. Liz g

    Don’t worry Ronnie,they are not going to take me for a fool!
    Or anyone else if I’ve a thing to say about it.
    We all worked too long and to hard to keep Yes ” the side of the Angels “…and..

    I know fine well..
    Our Enemies don’t work in HES
    Our Enemies work in SW1

  177. ronnie anderson

    Indy car Gordon Ross now being a apologist for Auob ( its aw the fawt o that big boay who didid it ffs .

  178. Nana

    Nothing political going on here..all nice and neutral @HistEnvScot
    I’d think carefully next time you cite political affiliation as an excuse for not being able to accommodate some of the very people who provide you with your revenue.

  179. Macart

    @ronnie anderson and Liz g

    Couldn’t agree more.

    Keep it friendly folks and keep it peaceful. Make it a joy and not an argument waiting to happen.

    Nothing – NOTHING – would make Britnats happier than if the march were to get the wrong publicity. Keep that in mind and everyone can have a great day. 🙂

  180. Alba Laddie

    O/T again (sorry) but Ajax Sarwar has just got his books.

  181. yesindyref2

    I won’t be going on a “protest”, that’s not what it’s all about, it’s a peaceful happy march. It’s fairly clear there are people on both “sides” who’ve stirred things up, but neither side is the majority of the walkers.

    I expect I’ll be eating my packed lunch in the park all the same 🙂

  182. Petra

    @ Defo at 3:37pm …. (OO marches end up in) the nearest shop selling Buckie.”

    Ha, ha, ha! Good one Defo. Buckie followed by rolling around in the gutter.

  183. Alex Waugh

    The only one that really worried me was the suggestion that the SNP was hoping that Dugdale might defect to them. Nooooo! Think of the damage that cretin would do to the cause of independence. The ones I really feel sorry for are her parents.

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