A Little Respect
Readers, meet SNP councillor Fatima Joji.
As you can see, she’s part of the hyperwoke “Aberdeen Independence Movement” faction which recently took it upon itself to issue a “code of conduct” for independence campaigners, demanding that everyone in the Yes movement should debate things:
And here’s Cllr Joji setting an example last night:
Hmm.
She said it twice so nobody misunderstood her.
The tweets were part of an extended tirade objecting to a tweet thread I’d posted about Tory leadership candidate Kemi Badenoch.
I hadn’t actually “advocated” for Badenoch at all, of course. She’s a Conservative with Conservative values, most of which I find repellent. Rather, I’d pointed out that from a Tory point of view she was the smart choice for leader, because she’d be much harder for Keir Starmer to fight than someone like the current front-runner Penny Mordaunt.
(A point also made by many other people, including the splendid Allison Bailey.)
Alert readers will have noted that both Cllr Joji and fellow wokester Miguel “William Saraband” Boronha insisted that Badenoch wasn’t an immigrant at all – something which will have come as surprising news to Badenoch, who was raised in Nigeria from the age of two weeks to adulthood, whose first language is Nigerian, and who certainly appears to see herself that way.
But Joji went much further, repeatedly making the outrageous and utterly unfounded allegation that I had, on unspecified occasions and in unspecified ways, personally “harassed virtually everyone in the [SNP] BAME Network for being BAME in politics”.
(Unfortunately it seems Cllr Joji hasn’t been keeping herself up to date with the latest developments in woke Newspeak – the term “BAME” is now regarded as “offensive”, “outdated”, “unhelpful” and “redundant” according to a report by the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities last year. We trust she’ll surrender herself promptly to the relevant authorities for re-education.)
As far as I can tell I’ve only even HEARD of three people in the SNP BAME Network, and I haven’t “harassed” any of them, let alone done so “for being BAME in politics”.
So naturally I challenged Cllr Joji to substantiate her offensive and defamatory claim.
She didn’t react very well to being asked to back up the disgraceful smear of racism, suggesting that a polite request for such evidence was in fact “bullying”.
(I hadn’t mentioned any kind of legal action at any point.)
Instead she just repeated the smear over and over again.
So we can only suppose that baselessly calling people racists, bullies, harassers and “disgusting scum” who can “absolutely gtf” is what classes as “agreeing to differ in a respectful and tolerant manner” in the new SNP.
We have to be honest with you, folks, it doesn’t fill us with optimism about the state of an independent Scotland. But then, with the SNP in charge, that’s not something we’re going to have to worry about any time soon.
Was disgusted by the foul comments you were subjected to. The SNP wokies just keep on lying ?
Kemi Badenoch: Schrodingers immigrant.
It is a pity that justice is nigh on impossible to achieve in sturgeon’s Scotland.
Joji strikes me as an entitled brat. So she’ll fit right in with the rest of the transcult.
The good news is they are seeing the writing on the wall.
Even when they’re wrong and proven wrong….Politics ??
So we must suppose that calling people racists, bullies, harassers and “disgusting scum” is what classes as “agreeing to differ in a respectful and tolerant manner” in the new SNP.
Only if said by a member of the SNP-woke brigade. If said by anyone else then you’re in big trouble!
You committed the ultimate act if aggression by asking wokey children to provide actual evidence. You should know it’s all subjective these days, you monster!
I always think it’s hilarious that the Nu-SNP insists we show the utmost respect and deference to JK Rowling if she’s calling us “Death Eaters,” but that death threats are totally fine if she’s saying that women’s rights are important. Wokeism is a pernicious cult.
I have friends and family of many nationalities,
But I dont have any with chips on their shoulders going out of their way to stir up hatred that search and seek racism as a form of hobbie, to close down free speech in the nation and nationality of Scots who are fast becoming an ethic race themselves.
Which the population as a whole has never had a record of racism of,
The only people in Scotland that displayed racism in Scottish history were the landed gentry and their racism was aimed at burning the Scots out of their homes, slaying as many Scots as possible, to steal their land, using Scots as Slaves and breaking up families by shipping them of to work in one of the Colonies,
Those landed gentry had white and black racism and still do when you watch MR HOYLE in this last Weeks Westminter,
She just sounds deranged.
Trouble with the Wokies, or that should be just one of the “troubles”, is that when you point out their idiocy, hypocrisy and often outright insanity, you’re instantly accused of some kind of phobia.
Not phobic anything personally, just don’t subscribe to their bullshit – especially the sort that claims bullshit as fact, and then runs away bleating when they’re called out.
She is one of our local councilors in Aberdeenshire (where I live incidentally) and has alienated all but the WOKE fraternity in the AIM.
She shamelessly plays the race card when it suits her (like topping the Aberdeen list with around 5% of the CA vote) and is hip deep with notorious aberdeen MP Kirsty Blackman.
At least she beat other woke candidates like Josh Mennie so she has her positive points.
I personally wouldn’t trust her to tell me if it was raining without opening a window to check……. She is completely unsuited to being a councilor and her selection in the first place is a sad reflection on the Aberdeenshire CAs once all the adults left.
Rev Stu.
I think you have enough intolerance and racism from this lady already to start a collection of racist attacks aimed at you and all of us Scots as Race of people, whom have done her no harm
Mind keep the evidence.
She is displaying racism to the local natives in Scotland.
Where does the SNP get such unsavoury idiots?
Independence going nowhere fast.
Joji has links to Kezia Dugdale’s sinister, John Smith Centre for Public Service (published accounts four years late and counting). The JSCfPS is a finishing school for Stepford politicians. Never had a proper job in their lives, humanities graduates. When / if the JSCfPS reveals their accounts, my guess would be funding from the US State Department (routed through various fronts).
You know what, fuck this fuckin shite, I’m sick and tired of these fuckin wokists trying to rule and demanding we bow to their will and thinking, fuck that, that lassie needs to be called out.
Hit her with a cease and desist letter or actually sue her and we will pay for the crowdfunder, they need to fuckin learn tolerance and respect and when throwing accusations.
BACK IT UP or shut the fuck up and sit quietly in the next room.
Scots have physically, mentally and financially suffered racism for hundreds of years from past to present.
The sad thing is this lady does not want to see the history of suffered racism and abuse the Scots have had to endure,
I presume she thinks racism only happens to her narrow spectrum of reality. As she attacks the race and nation of Scots with racism.
Say it as it is,
Wikipedia (not the best source, I know) has her as born in London:-
“Badenoch was born in 1980 in Wimbledon, London, to Femi and Feyi Adegoke. Her father was a GP and her mother is a professor of physiology. She has two siblings; a brother named Fola and a sister called Lola. Badenoch’s childhood included time living in Lagos, Nigeria and in the United States, where her mother lectured.”
Not stirring, just trying to contribute.
Must go, got a carpet to lift…
I believe the Rev has committed what is known in wokespeak as a microaggression.
It seems a bit hypocritical though that those who throw these accusations are displaying behaviours that fits the description of this themselves.
I saw most, but not all, of those tweets last night at about 2am Scottish time. I understand why someone could misunderstand the point you were making about Kemi Badenoch. I mean, they may be very tired or they may have missed the tweet about Penny Mordaunt. Also, they may be very dense or they are happy to be willfully misrepresenting what you wrote. But for the life of me I cannot find where you said anything ageist. Is there a tweet out there that could be misconstrued as you being ageist? If not, I am steadily coming to the conclusion that a councilor is making stuff up and, whatever the party, that is not a good look.
We really should put these Wokes into a room with someone like Sir Linday Hoyle and his braying and baying band of English MPs.
Hoyle by his hate filled outburst this week would have the Woke either shitting themselves fixed to the spot or growing a spine and lashing out at the agressor.
Can you imagine what would happen to Hoyle if he conducted finger his face contorted rage and finger pointing to someone in a bar, or a cafe or in a street in Scotland. Someone quite frankly, and in self defence would react and beat the absolute crap out of him. His actions, and those of his bellowing English chums may be driven by hate – but hate creates reactions. This guy is a thug. His parliament is full of thugs.
Can you imagine if side arms could have been worn this week. This thug would have used them
And the Wokes – well nappies all round for them.
Rev stu,
You and others on here come from around all over Scotland, from different backgrounds and different nations, nations of the world in fact.
She is racist in branding and name calling africans, Asians . white, Scots , Italians, Chinese, polish, germans and Americans SCUM.
Interesting that she appears to be muslamic and is shooting her mouth off.
– I think the koran allows you to hit her with your shoe, but only her husband/brother/father may whip her.
Woke and muslim all together, how does that work out?
– there was a scandal a few years back about african, usually nigerian women, going into labour, then getting on a flight to London to take advantage of the NHS superior maternity facilities. One lady ran up a 300K bill, then fucked off.
One of the tweets implies “Kemi” was the product of one of these cases; another example of why “being born here” can mean fuck-all. Who are you – well, who are your parents?
BAME is conceptual nonsense – black (all of africa, east and west, hutu and tustsi, igbo, yoruba etc times 1000), asian (china, japan, korea, india, pakistan), middle eastern (turk, syrian, kurd, jew) – they are all such pals
Do they have a list of’isims and ists ‘ that their running through so they can acuse ye of stuff Rev?
Cause they sure as shit don’t have an argument.
In 2014 for the purposes of the Indy movement we were ‘aw Jock Tampsons bairns’ and despite the best efforts of those who would direct us….we still are.
I for one am no interested in their rules and guidelines.
I show up,I campaign and I vote.
I do this to end the Treaty we’re stuck in.
I don’t do it to add shit tonnes of terms and conditions to my vote.
Its a simple proposition and I can’t see why so many get so so confused over it.
Indy + ,Indy but, Indy If ,Indy This, Indy that, Indy with bells and whistles…..Its a pile of self important nonsense.
Leave them to their imagined grievances Rev,hold whichever opinions ye wish and keep on doing what ye do
Willie,
It is amazing how colour blind people can be when it comes to racism,
Mr Hoyle broke the westminster rules to show is racist hatred to the Scots, now that is racism,
Please stop calling these people “woke”. It plays to their agenda, and too many people still see it as synonymous with “progressive” and anti racism (which it was in the original American sense), while they see “anti-woke” as a right wing cry.
These people are not progressive or liberal in any sense: quite the opposite. And in SNP/independence politics they are divisive, wreckers, infiltrators – people who, since 2017 have gone all out to disrupt and remove serious independence campaigners from both the SNP and the wider movement. Please stop playing to that agenda with woke & anti woke, which obscures what is at heart a very obvious and predictable unionist tactic that appeared alongside Brexit.
“Wikipedia (not the best source, I know) has her as born in London:-“
The Times article I link to clearly states that she was, and the post I wrote says she was raised in Nigeria FROM THE AGE OF TWO WEEKS to adulthood. None of this is in any dispute.
“Please stop calling these people “woke”. It plays to their agenda, and too many people still see it as synonymous with “progressive” and anti racism (which it was in the original American sense), while they see “anti-woke” as a right wing cry.”
Sadly the most apt word for their ideology is “fascist”, and that word has been rendered so worthless by misuse that if you call anyone it, people just switch off and stop listening to you.
“Joji has links to Kezia Dugdale’s sinister, John Smith Centre for Public Service”
Yeah?
They always start out with a noble proposal, only to end up being as derogatory and indiscriminate as those they condemn.
The mark of the hypocrite is strong in this one.
Boris Johnstone repeated a poem calling Scots vermin, now that is racist,
Taxing the Scots with poll tax a year before England, Wale, and Ireland, now thats racist.
Telling the Scots nation they cannot be free or have independence of their nation,
That very racist,
It smacks of old colonial racism.
“Specifically we will, individually and collectively, conduct all-out campaign communication and organisational activities in a respectful and tolerant manner, agreeing to differ where necessary but always taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination and prejudice.”
Oh, yes. that would have worked a treat at Bannockburn.
These folk are snake oil salespeople. Buzz words,sound bites,
Pledges. These are for everybody else of course, not the creator of aforementioned inclusive respectful policy. Let’s not be silly.
A worrying thought. Are these the potential future leadership of the SNP?
Jees- She’s no the brightest is she. Accuse first , check facts later. If someone pointed out I was a working class catholic from the West Of Scotland to make a point about my background. Is this classed as bigotry?
Of course it isn’t. Unless we are now living in a world where you can’t even comment on someone’s life history. Public peoples back stories are all over Wikipedia FFS.
I despair!
Thank f**k I moved abroad, every time I get off a plane or a boat to the UK/Sco, I realise just how mad and weird the place has become.
For us on the mainland you’re just a group of islands off the Belgium coast filled with complete nutters. WM, Holyrood right down to the local level with bat-s**t SNP folk like cllr. Joji
I’m from the North-East and know what a beautiful part of the world it is, but, there is no getting away from it, politically in Scotland you’re utterly mad.
Remember.. you voted for these people over the years, they didn’t suddenly appear out of thin air..!
How come the Scots are so docile?
The “yellow vests” in France could teach you a thing or two about getting things done.
As a member of ALBA I’m optimistic and clearly want more activity than just little books; give me a dozen MacAskills, Hanveys and big fat headlines of English rage mixed with demonstrations outside of Holyrood and Bute House.
Or to use a well known Ukrainian saying, tell them to “Go f*** themselves”. 🙂
All very entertaining.
Ms. Joji seemed to miss the essential fact of what you were saying Rev., Badenoch would be unassailable by Labour, perhaps ever. If the Conservatives were smart they should be prepping her for office as fast as possible, particularly since the next PM is unlikely to survive very long given the nose-diving economy.
However the real question is, how do we create an independent Scotland that’s representative of the people? It seems that some shovels and a couple of wheelbarrows will be insufficient to clean up the mess that the Nu-SNP are creating.
Having said that it might be easier than I suspect. Ms. Joji seems wound a little too tight. Maybe on the sight of all those non-immigrants celebrating their new found freedom they’ll just throw a temper-tantrum and head south.
@ Craig at 12:34 pm
“a cease and desist letter” seems reasonable
“sue her”That too is an option after the former
I wonder where the ground floor in SNP standards lie?
Quite near the basement of humanity,I suppose
Crowd fund and sue for defamation?????
Please haul her over the legal coals. I’ll contribute to any crowd fund required.
A worrying thought. Are these the potential future leadership of the SNP?
If they are, the SNP has no future in Scotland. And doesn’t deserve one. Given most of them were Labour and “no” during the last referendum, you can see where parties they campaign for end up already. Let’s just hope their type (those who actively create division to keep themselves on the UK gravy train) are yesterday’s Scotland, however the future one comes about. If that’s not via the SNP, so be it.
We just have to hope they aren’t successful in derailing independence for generations rather than just the decade or so they have done so far. A lot of that is up to SNP members and voters though.
Just seen this particular one seems to have been UKIP in 2011.
link to twitter.com
The SNP leadership really has enabled some extremely vile infiltrators to take not only top positions in places like the NEC and policy making, but in critical ones like “discipline” which, as Stu used the word above, allows for entirely fascist rule of a party. And that’s what’s happened within the SNP since 2017 – vexatious complaints people have no chance to defend, instantly taken up by the unionist media with glee to destroy people’s lives. Sometimes leading to malicious prosecutions also indented to destroy lives as well as silence tensely pro independence people. While genuine complaints go unresponded to or even labelled as “racist”, “transphobic” etc because they’re from and about the “wrong” people.
Joji’s connection to the JSCfPS, this time last year.
link to johnsmithcentre.com
When do we think the “book burning” might start?
I’m sure the Nu-SNP will have a plan coming through very soon. maybe a ‘ bill’ rushed through parliament just like GRA (no need for debate apparently) eh, according to her that must be obeyed!
This nightmare is just starting. What they’ve done in 5 years or so is nowt to what’s to come.
GOD if yer up there big man -SOS-save our souls. I’ll go back tae the chapel- honest!
It sounds like the SNP woke, use far too much sweetener in their British Tea.
I’ve now filed formal complaints about Cllr Joji’s conduct with both Aberdeenshire Council and the Ethical Standards Commissioner.
Sue her!!!!
“Joji’s connection to the JSCfPS, this time last year.”
Cheers.
Hmmmmmmmm….. Benefit of the doubt card played by me.
Kinda hoping it doesn’t trigger accusations of racism or misogyny, but I had an observation about a lass I went on training course beside.
It was a building industry training course, and she was a young German lass who came over to London to train. Now I thought that was pretty brave on multiple levels. London could be pretty mean to wee German lassie.
I don’t know of course, but I got the impression that her bravery had it’s limits, and when you add being homesick into the mix, being a lass in a foreign country doing hard physical work (which wore out a big ugly mug like me, never mind a wee lass less than half my weight), plus being a German in London, I think she was a little overwhelmed. But that was quite natural that anybody would be.
But because she felt a bit lonely, insecure and lacking in confidence, I think she felt drawn to the camaraderie of the misfits on the course, the disruptive perpetual student time-wasting types. Language, pigeon English is another contributing factor too I think.
I know for a fact these guys held her back, got her mixed up in stuff that nearly got her kicked off the course. Not the cool rebellious stuff like drink, drugs and silly tattoos, (the idiots caused trouble for a member of the teaching staff), but the frustrating thing was you knew she was a good kid and if she hadn’t felt so vulnerable, she’d never have got involved with the other dipshits in the first place. She’d made a fool of herself, and you just knew it was out of character and she was haunted by it.
Vulnerable people get preyed upon by weirdos and misfits because weirdos and misfits know what it’s like to not have any friends when you’re going through a rough patch or your life is an emotional rollercoaster. “Anybody” can be a vulnerable person.
When I see these Wokeratti types, it’s so common to see those same weirdos and misfits primed and ready to sucker in some impressionable youngster and fill their heads with toxic nonsense. And it is toxic nonsense, because these groomers don’t want their victim making friends with “normal” people, so normal people are ridiculed for being normal. It’s a destructive cycle.
I honestly don’t mean it in a racist way at all, nor indeed misogynistic, but to me there seems a disproportionate number of coloured, ethnic, linguistically “challenged” people who find themselves recruited into these “shit stirring” communities of angry misfits, and every time I see another one, you can almost see the same conditioning. They’re so busy making enemies when they’d have a lot more fun making friends, because they end up thoroughly miserable.
I think Twitter and BTL comments make things ten times worse, because brief typed comments can be so easily misinterpreted and taken out of context… and that’s when English is your first language.
It’s a guess, but I’d bet you somebody who writes “I’d rather you think I’m fibbing.”, well, without prejudice, “might” be someone who’s not going to pick up on all the subtleties of English language.
The entire context of Rev Stu’s nuanced comment “She’s a young, black female, working class immigrant”, makes complete sense to me, but it has just gone right over Fatima’s head. She has simply not understood what Stu was saying, but she’s also been conditioned by the SNP’s Wookie Woos to be this hair triggered attack dog wannabe.
Councillor Fatima Zahra Joji, get yourself some new friends.
It’s my well intentioned advice that you need to be mixing amongst people with more life experience, and a much greater depth of experience to draw upon. You need to grow as a person, and develop your powers of intuition and analytical thinking. You are too easily led, and too easily triggered at present.
You’re going to end up miserable if you don’t heed the warning.
Rev Stu is not a racist, so you’ve got all worked up and made such a fuss about something which YOU got absolutely wrong.
Entitled brat. Hops from one position to another to climb the greasy pole. How does she square being Muslim (if she is, or is that another affectation?) with the ‘trans’ agenda? All of these people are infiltrators of a party that can give them the power they crave, and the salary and pension to match. Don’t worry, sweetie, a man in a frock will be along soon to ‘woman face’ and take your rights from you. Being black won’t save you. Don’t complain, you hypocritical woman! Don’t you dare! Ignore the eejit, Rev.
A councillor? Well, well. Once upon a time “not the full shilling” would have been the description.
I’d happily support a small crowd funding donation for you to sue Fatima of the SNP for defamation.
Wings speaks the truth the woke SNP are toxic and have ruined the party.
Corruption from the head down at all levels of government.
Fatima will be fattening up her ever expanding wasteline and pockets of tax payer funded cash on the ticket.
Send her a citation in the post for defamation. Get it up her.
Without doubt here is someone aiming to take down a blogger she displays obvious animosity too, but in attempting to a line her predjuces her justification with reality has also shown personal predjudice and zero tolerence to all others, including a broad spectrum of Scots around the world.
If the racism card wont play,
She then attempts the agism card.
This person shows great animosity and zero tolerance towards others no matter what ethic race they are.
If they comment on wings all ethics races seem to be regarded in a discrimintory fashion lumped in together by this cllr.
The racist cllr is looking to attack anyone whom comments on this blog site, and the owner of the blog site, the cllr is bias WITH predujuce in her racism toward many ethinic groups commenting here.
Well done for reporting the cllr to the proper authorities Stu.
I’ve now filed formal complaints about Cllr Joji’s conduct with both Aberdeenshire Council and the Ethical Standards Commissioner.
Good! I think the more people who face down these bullies the better. I’m sure there will be no issue crowd funding action against this individual and others who follow her baleful example.
Once a few are forced to issue grovelling apologies or defend their abusive othering in court, it will serve as an example to others.
Joji meets the SNPs very low standards that have been set these days, wild accusation then foul language and then anger when asked for the evidence.
She’s typical of what ails the SNP under Sturgeon.
I think some of you are having trouble differentiating between the creatures from Star Wars and the creatures from the Snowflake Lagoon, so perhaps some definitions are in order.
Wookie – a large unkempt creature which lives in a fictional universe which takes extreme liberties with established scientific facts.
Although they show signs of higher intelligence, they are noticeable for their volatile temperament and capacity for flying into destructive violent rages on the flimsiest of pretexts – usually some form of thwarting of their will. Their unique language – difficult to understand for outsiders – tends to sound like a lot of growls and shouts, and their tendency to childlike tantrums when they don’t get their own way makes others wary of long term dealings with them. The collective term is a grove of Wookies.
Wokie – a large unkempt creature which lives in a fictional universe which takes extreme liberties with established scientific facts.
Although they show signs of higher intelligence, they are noticeable for their volatile temperament and capacity for flying into destructive violent rages on the flimsiest of pretexts – usually some form of thwarting of their will. Their unique language – difficult to understand for outsiders – tends to sound like a lot of growls and shouts, and their tendency to childlike tantrums when they don’t get their own way makes others wary of long term dealings with them. The collective term is a groove of Wokies.
With regards to taking legal action against this or any other individual , take a look at our legal system under sturgeon’s tenure and ask yourself if you really believe that our justice system is capable of making an unbiased decision in relation to this ahem persons accusations
Remember the JUSTICE you received from the dug dale deliberate accusations of homophobia , you WON the case but were shafted , remember this ahem person is a representative of Scotland’s deviant queen head of justice ,and as such feels free to malign and impune at will
This guy getting in on the act virtually calling you out as a bigot.
“It’s striking that if you are from a minority (foreign , LGBTQ, ethnic) , you are far more likely to be the victim of Campbell’s bullying. Could be a coincidence, could be that his bigotry is intersectional ???? Either way, let’s be glad he won’t be involved in the Yes campaign”
link to twitter.com
Happy to chip in a few quid for legal action, should the Reverend deem it necessary, or potentially entertaining.
You get that sort of stuff when you’re a gunslinger, kids trying to make names for themselves, etc.
She’s being tasked with trying to get you thrown off twitter Mr Wings. Try not to rise to the bait
Have to include this one:
link to twitter.com
Cllr Fatima (Zahra) Joji @fatima_joji
Did Wings just say Kemi’s first language is “Nigerian” ?. Submit yourself for re-education oh dear ?.
12:23 pm · 15 Jul 2022·Twitter for iPhone
Er, “Nigerian” is a language in its own right if “Scots” and fking “Doric” are considered “languages”.
There’s both “Nigerian English” (local dialect) and “Nigerian Pidgin” (a creole all but vital for traversing the nation’s linguistic merry-go-round comprised of many different language families).
Perhaps instead of Stu submitting himself for “re-education” (how Viet Cong and Khmer Rouge of you …), you could ask Kemi Badenoch for some advice before making yourself look an even greater clown than you already are.
Snapshot of youth(good news/bad news)
I had the opportunity recently to ask two teenage lads if they used Twitter and I quote…”Fuck, Twitter’s for nonces and trannies”.
Says me, tongue in cheek, “that’s very transphobic”
Says them, “Fuck right off. Everyone’s transphobic”
The conversation continued, bottom line, when the adults aren’t there, they claim everyone but the creepy dudes hate what the adults are preaching in school/life. It filled me with hope. Bad news is they cannot say so unless they are in a safe place to do so, i.e. no creepy dudes or adults around. Seeking affirmation because I really am this insecure I said, “So I’m no a creepy dude then?”…”well you are a bit fucking creepy like” Life, it gives builds with one hand and destroys with the other.
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser.
Republicofscotland says: 15 July, 2022 at 6:28 pm
I don’t know if I’m missing something but I thought intersectionality is the system of showing how levels of discrimination faced by individuals with more than one political identity?
How exactly is just highlighting an individuals age, race, class and ethnicity be described as intersectional bigotry?
It sounds like either they either don’t understand what they are talking about, creating mischief, throwing buzz words in for the sake of it or all three?
Alastair says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:40 pm
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser.
You may have a point Alistair.
The SNP does appear to be full of master baiters these days …
Alastair says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:40 pm
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser
I’m sure you realise that it’s SNP getting edgy about the presence of a strong force for facts being present on twitter at a sensitive time in the life of the SNP:-)
Excerpt from UK Gov site:
link to equalities.blog.gov.uk
holymacmoses says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:10 pm
QUOTE
“She’s being tasked with trying to get [you thrown off twitter]
EFA cancelled
Mr Wings. “
Pac Man -You are correct.
Once we start labelling people and putting them in groups. It actually creates a them and us system of thought. In groups and Out groups , a common term in psychology for how individuals perceive themselves. Young/old , black/white, protestant/catholic.It actually perpetuates the prejudice it was meant to defeat.
We should see a person,not a preconceived label.Highlighting differences creates division, accepting differences does not require labelling.
Like saying white people as a sub group. When we know there are countless white people with countless opinions and beliefs. Some good, some bad. Just like all people.
This is great – Mavis Nicholson interviewing Margo MacDonald, almost 45 years ago.
link to youtube.com
She sounds like an Aberdeen version of Tatiana McGrath. Are you sure it isn’t a similar piss take?
Please watch that video at around the 15 min mark, where she talks about us being ‘protestors for far too long’. And that’s after dealing with the whole ‘identity’ issue in plain language which anyone can understand. (Would anyone accuse her of being a ‘nativist’?)
Oh, to have someone like her at the head of the SNP right now…
🙁
Would anyone accuse her of being a ‘nativist’?
If she’d been extreme enough to suggest disenfranchising 20% – or whatever other random percentage who aren’t pure bloods the nativists think should be excluded – then hell, yes.
Why do nativists feel the need to appropriate the support of people they don’t know would agree with them? Is it because they’re butt hurt that most of the movement are against them?
It certainly triggers them that Rev Stu disagrees with them: I reckon the news that Alex is lukewarm to nativist arguments will be an even bigger disappointment. Cry me a river. 🙂
A wee reminder that “most of the (indy) movement” pissed away their 2nd votes for the SNP in last year’s Scottish Parliament election, so it hardly sets a high bar for showing a collective of switched on folk that have a particularly good grasp on political things.
I reckon if you asked them what “civic nationalism” was a decent percentage would think it meant we’d be a nation full of folk driving small Honda hatchbacks.
🙂 🙂 🙂
Margo Macdonald – what a breath of fresh air. I’d love to see her telling P Murrell and N Sturgeon, Mike Russell, Angus Robertson, Alyn Smith, oh all of them, what she thought of them. They would curl up and die.
Badenoch is described by older members of the afro-carribean community in Leicester as a “coconut”. Its a fairly offensive word but I think they’re on the money this time.
So I think you’re actually wrong in your assessment of Badenoch v Starmer but frankly anyone v Starmer with a following wind has a chance of winning the next GE.
This is another beauty featuring Margo, also from 1977, with Norman Buchan and Teddy Taylor. (Don’t know the name of the chair.)
I’m only a half hour in but it’s already had some big names…
Jimmy Airlie at 10mins
John Maxton at 11 mins
George Foulkes at 20 mins
Hugh McDiarmid (famous nativist) at 22 mins
And a braw stushie between Margo and Anna McCurley at 27 mins.
It’s worth noting how eloquent the contributors are – compare with the general standard of set-piece ‘debates’ now e.g. that embarrassing shite we saw earlier in the Tory leadership bunfest on CH4.
🙂
link to youtube.com
Ellis comes across as pure raging that other people have done some research on how the ‘international community’ operate referendums, and then suggested adopting a different approach to the one taken in 2014. It’s a bizarre spectacle at times.
Who would the 20%, or whatever arbitrary number of your choosing, vote for in the first election in the newly independent state of Scotland, Andy?
Andy Ellis says:
15 July, 2022 at 9:43 pm
Would anyone accuse her of being a ‘nativist’?
If she’d been extreme enough to suggest disenfranchising 20% – or whatever other random percentage who aren’t pure bloods the nativists think should be excluded – then hell, yes.
Why do nativists feel the need to appropriate the support of people they don’t know would agree with them? Is it because they’re butt hurt that most of the movement are against them?
It certainly triggers them that Rev Stu disagrees with them: I reckon the news that Alex is lukewarm to nativist arguments will be an even bigger disappointment. Cry me a river. ?
—
Shut up ya fud. You can’t help yersel bringing the nativist pish in to every fucking thing. Stoap being a fanny and kindo get away fae yer nativist POV which seems to be your only modes operando .
If ye don’t like it feck aff back tae Leeds or wherever ye com fae ya Clown – it’s no awe aboot you ye ken.
Could SNP start off candidates as Milk Monitors or something.
She is pathetically immature and a bit of an angry fantasist.
Agreed, but the aforementioned Times article also says where she was born.
Bisous etc…
@ Big Jock
The idea of intersectionality is sound. Take for instance feminism. It is now just a springboard for middle class white females to leap frog up the career ladder through positive discrimination. The life experiences of them is totally different to the likes of Fatima Joji and she will never get the opportunities that the likes of her pal Blackman gets handed onto a plate.
Ultimately, you fly with crows, expect to be shoot at like the crows. If Joji wants to go down the route she is taking of divisive identity politics then that’s her prerogative. However, she will eventually find out the hard way that it isn’t to her long term advantage.
Ellis
What`s with this `”pure bloods ” acidity, you really have got one oar in the water. And stop your insulting anti Scots “nativists” LP, we are sick of your pretence as an indy supporter.
If you want an example of pure bloods and nativists and racists then head down to England and confront the English PM who thinks Scots are vermin and should be exterminated.
Just give your bitterness a rest as you are making a fool of yourself.
Welcome back, we need your sanity.
I’m not a conservative and I’m not a woman.
Doesn’t mean I can’t post this link.
PS Some of you may have heard the news that Bob Boswell (Don Guillerme on Twitter) has passed away, suddenly. Dunno if he ever posted here, perhaps under another name, but he was well aware of this place and was a fervent independence supporter. He will be missed.
link to conservativewoman.co.uk
Joji is yet another liability to any Indy campaign.
Oh and I am a member of the most oppressed minority on the planet right now – I am a a White Heterosexual Car Driving Scottish Male.
Ian Brotherhood says:
15 July, 2022 at 11:05 pm
It’s worth noting how eloquent the contributors are – compare with the general standard of set-piece ‘debates’ now…
I agree with you Ian, but I don’t think it’s just a question about the poor quality of modern debate.
There is a malicious attempt to manipulate modern “debates” to distort the narrative and indoctrinate the audience rather than inform them.
It is my firm conviction that Unionist arguments were steadily being exposed as groundless prejudices and delusions, while even deceptively simple points raised about Independence could not be adequately demolished. Quite simply, informed debate steadily eroded faith in the Union.
It isn’t simply bad debates we now see, (although we shouldn’t rule out a hidden agenda to have the people actually switch off and be less engaged), but the debates we are seeing through the media now have a viciously partisan agenda which they are trying to pass off as neutrality.
When people could see and hear how contrived Unionist arguments typically were, Unionism lost purchase, and ordinary people began thinking “Ach, he’s just a Unionist”. So then, there was a change, and the media had to start disguising unionism, and dressing up Unionists as ordinary members of the public without a dog in the race, when in fact they’re rampant political activists. It had to be dishonest.
Witness Orange jaikit man in the Question Time audience, or (typically) Tory Activists posing as patients let down by the NHS.
We are wrong to let this slide as simply a poor quality debate, because it is actually a far more sinister campaign of indoctrination and manipulation of the truth. It’s an illusion of debate. It is naked propaganda and political indoctrination which has preserving the UK Union as it’s hidden agenda.
This has not been caused by any decline in standards. It is wilful and deliberate. The logic of the United Kingdom crumbles under scrutiny, so it cannot afford to be scrutinised.
Sadly, to a massive extent, the manipulation is successful, and truth has a difficult job asserting itself.
I think I agree with others who suggest above, that some folk in the SNP brit-nat establishment, would like to distract Rev STU, just in case he decides to get involved in the independence campaign. I think the councillor person, is just somebody who is being used, and fed absolute unfounded pap about you.
Sadly, with each passing day, what I see is not an SNP committed to Scottish independence, but an SNP committed to pretending to push for Scottish independence.
I mean, seriously, what political strategist publicly announces IN ADVANCE, to their opponents (English government) that they already know they will not get everything they want and will have to compromise?? Nicola Sturgeon did, just a few days ago. Did she not do the negotiation 1.01 module at uni??
Either she is utterly inept in terms of political strategy, or is simply ‘going through the motions’ of pushing for indy’, with zero intention of making it happen – and certainly not without England’s ‘permission’.
The indy movement needs leadership, and we just will not get it from anybody in the SNP, or their woke-loonie obsessed ‘hingers oan’. Nicola Sturgeon just either doesn’t have it, or just doesn’t want to fight for Scottish democracy at all.
Just a charade, all these ‘papers’ she is punting. She has zero fight in her, and right now, Scotland really, really needs a fighter to play London at their own games. She really does need to up her game, stop being so soft, and start demanding what Scotland wants. Westminster literally laughs its socks off at politicians who are ‘nice’.
Oh, and just what is the point of their being televised Tory PM leadership debates, when the public will not get a vote. Not sure if the britnat media in London can see just how utterly undemocratic it is that the prime minister of the UK is being chosen by the members of just one political party, instead of the public. When Putin does something like that they all scream and shout, but her we are in 2022, and the PM is being decided by a bunch of Tory posh boys. But, but, but they say, ‘that is how our system works’. How f***ing convenient, I would say.
It is simply no good for so-called ‘journalists’ to be playing along with this utter sham of democracy, by lending some kind of pseudo legitimacy to it all.
What is the point of the TV debates? The people of this country do not get a vote. The PM will be decided by ‘The Party’.
Ian B @ 1.17
Thanks for that link .She’s spot-on
One of the ( many ) disconcerting aspects of the last 2+ years is finding yourself in agreement with people whose views you were previously diametrically opposed to eg Neil Oliver , someone I used to avoid like the proverbial . I still find his stance on Independence repellent , flecked as it is with Right Wing Unionist delusions of Imperial grandeur , but his take on the increasing clampdown of Civil Liberties under the catch-all abstraction of * Health * , the sinister encroachment of unelected Globalist entities like WHO , WEF , Pharma Corps and the truly creepy B Gates etc on our * Democracies * and brain-dead Politicians colluding in the * Gender * insanity – another target he doesn’t miss, is one I share ; as do many who likewise couldn’t stand him up until recently .
This is a reflection of the intellectual poverty of what used to be known as the Left , which , with a few notable exceptions – C Hedges , J Pilger , N Chomsky among others – has been the most vociferous in demanding serious curtailment of our personal freedoms , censorship of opposing views and uncritical acceptance of blatant Governmental propaganda re Covid and * that * current foreign conflict . The latter exposing the fraudulence of supposed Lefties like the emetic P Mason .
Excuse the – very – O/T nature of this comment . I think there IS a connection with the OP however ie the way the very idea of Truth itself has become devalued , nothing more than a malleable expedient to serve whatever agenda – individual or global – is being pursued at any given time .
Don’t sue. It was a mistake with Dugdale and would be even more so in this case.
Anyway, this is the bit from AIM that astonishes me:
“Specifically we will, individually and collectively, conduct all our campaign communication and organisational activities in a respectful and tolerant manner, agreeing to differ where necessary but always taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination and prejudice.”
Sounds fine initially. But spend just a moment’s thought of the consequences. An approach better calculated to divide the independence movement into factions of name-callers wasting their time and energy attacking each other rather than unionism could hardly be done.
The one positive is that Nicola has taken the Genie out of the bottle. Even if that wasn’t her intention.
She named a date and people now expect and demand she fulfills that pledge, however fanciful it was. She is in her last few years, and this her last chance to do the right thing.
I suspect it will be Alba and the rest of us that will do her job for her. But look at the debate two Alba Mps getting chucked out has caused.
More of this and the world will soon take notice of our predicament.
The WM position cannot and will not stand. We are not stopping until we get what we want.
Iain More @ 4:18 am
“I am a member of the most oppressed minority on the planet right now – I am a a White Heterosexual Car Driving Scottish Male.”
Yes, this appears to be so. Postcolonial theory tells us that an independence movement is built upon the solidarity of an oppressed ethnic group, in our case the Scots, a minority people in the UK who are dominated, exploited and marginalised by the neighbouring country/power base and its elite cultural hegemony and with an alien culture and ‘values’ imposed on a people.
Here the SNP has forgotten or rather now seems totally ignorant of the fact that independence is about liberating the oppressed Scottish minority ethnic group within a dominant oppressive UK polity. Instead, the SNP is now behaving much like mainstream British political parties (and social institutions) in prioritising other minority ethnic groups including accelerating their political representation which may serve to further discriminate against ethnic Scots. In other words, the SNP elite has adopted the values of the oppressor; in the colonial environment it is only “the colonizer’s values which are sovereign” (Albert Memmi).
link to wp.towson.edu
Robert Louis says: 16 July, 2022 at 6:49 am
I had mentioned in a previous post that it is possible Sturgeon to survive not getting 50% of the public vote in running on a single mandate at the next UK general election.
She will frame it that the public isn’t convinced of the merits of independence and the SNP, under her leadership, will have to try harder to convince them.
Rather than sheer incompetence, is she deliberately designing this referendum to fail?
I know this As well as the usual suspect of PayPaul Kavanagh, she has a whole plethora of useful idiots in the form of the councillor mentioned in this article to make this spin a reality.
We all have seen a true glimpse of Sturgeons personality, we have seen that while she isn’t as smart as she thinks she is, she has enough survival instinct to shape events to her liking so it’s make a completely write her off as incompetent.
As well as that, given that the rhetoric of both the SNP themselves and their supporters, they are quite happy to be in the comfort zone of framing themselves as the anti-Tory party and getting the distraction to them of having to hold an independence referendum would suit them both fine, for me it’s hard not to see the argument I made as being fanciful.
Ellis comes across as pure raging that other people have done some research on how the ‘international community’ operate referendums, and then suggested adopting a different approach to the one taken in 2014. It’s a bizarre spectacle at times.
I wouldn’t dignify your contributions with the epithet “research” Scott, particularly when you reach such spectacularly misguided opinions. If you were arguing in good faith, you’d admit that in the vast majority of self determination referendums since WW2, the franchise used was residence based, not ethnically or birth right based.
Instead, you find one or two non-analogous examples from non-self governing territories like New Caledonia and Gibraltar, and declare that it means you’ve somehow proved something. It’s like playing chess with a pigeon. Those few exceptions simply demonstrate that what I’ve said all along stands: the Scottish precedent aligns with constitutional and historic precedent, it demonstrates progressive, civic nationalism in action and that it was and is widely accepted by the movement as a whole and outside in the international community.
What you and and other nativists are proposing (and let’s not forget, you personally have said on here that you’d restrict the franchise to those born in Scotland, which would disenfranchise just under 20% of Scots voters) is a profound change, which would have implications both internationally and domestically. Even in the unlikely event we get a referendum anytime soon, there’s as much chance of your fervid Brigadoon imaginings coming true as there is of Sturgeon slapping down the TRA’s and candy floss hair Twitler Youth in her party and announcing that Joanna Cherry was right all along.
Who would the 20%, or whatever arbitrary number of your choosing, vote for in the first election in the newly independent state of Scotland, Andy?
I don’t know: that’s the beauty of democracy. We don’t generally try to make windows in to people’s souls “Scott”, hard as it might be for someone with creepy as fuck stalking tendencies like you to understand. I think it’s quite likely that lots of the 20% you and other nativists had disenfranchised wouldn’t be too happy, eh? Particularly all the pro-independence New Scots you’d happily deprive of a vote or a say, even if they’d lived here for years or decades, depending how restrictive a franchise you’d decided to use.
At least have the courage to own the effects of your regressive platform Scott: not all the nativists may be as extreme as you, but their narrative is equally repellent.
@McDuff 12.18 am
Ellis
What`s with this `”pure bloods ” acidity, you really have got one oar in the water. And stop your insulting anti Scots “nativists” LP, we are sick of your pretence as an indy supporter.
If you want an example of pure bloods and nativists and racists then head down to England and confront the English PM who thinks Scots are vermin and should be exterminated.
Just give your bitterness a rest as you are making a fool of yourself.
It’s hardly difficult to discern the meaning of the term “pure bloods” surely, since you and others are complaining about the discussion.
Your MO isn’t that hard to discern either: the usual othering of anyone who disagrees with regressive nativism as not being a “real” independence supporter. Unlike you of course, I’m not an anonymous snivelling coward bumping their gums on the internet, so there is that.
Folk will doubtless give your considered contribution all the consideration it deserves.
“A belief in Covid conspiracy theories is linked to depression and anxiety, scientists say”
link to inews.co.uk
She named a date
And that is all the first minister and leader of the scottish national party will ever do
and people now expect and demand she fulfills that pledge, however fanciful it was.
I don’t think they do. I think they are well versed in disappointment
She is in her last few years, and this her last chance to do the right thing.
That is the long and short of it.
This delaying tactic is the right thing for her.
On a different tack, recourse to the courts by this site’s editor is a complete waste of time and money.
Leave the sacrificial goat tethered to AIM.
Walk on by.
Nativistly yours.
Alastair says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:40 pm
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser.
I was thinking this watching Fatima dig deeper in as the Twitter thread went on. They want your energies focused elsewhere and have used a naive, expendable minor official for their dirty work. It’s quite an accolade that you create such fear in a major party.
“A belief in Covid conspiracy theories is linked to depression and anxiety, scientists say”
Only covidious ones?
I’d adore seeing the survey method these scienticians employed.
I see your argument on the franchise has suddenly evolved into a purely moral argument, Ellis, one that hinges on your feelings rather than comparative politics.
To sum up, there’s no internationally accepted or expected definition of the franchise as far as referenda are concerned; it is done differently everywhere, as Scott pointed out.
As I’ve said on here several times, I don’t do feelings and that means I can happily stay out of this discussion — it is now a discussion rather than a debate.
@ paul
The cynic in me says these scientists funding is guaranteed for the next year at least.
Hatuey says:
16 July, 2022 at 9:08 am
“A belief in Covid conspiracy theories is linked to depression and anxiety, scientists say”
LOL . Yea H and a belief that everything that doesn’t doesn’t fit into the little box stamped * Officially Sanctioned Thought * is ipso facto a * Conspiracy Theory * is linked to a fatuous conceit that everything can be explained by * logic * and * reason * . It can’t .
Anyway , been over all that stuff to the point of ennui .
People can and will believe what suits them . Fair enough
Paul, the actual scientific paper is linked to in the article. And it used the usual regression analysis found in most other such surveys. It was conducted over the internet, rather than on the phone, which I think is a weakness, but that’s the world we now live in.
If you believe that covid probably came from a US lab and that the truth of vaccine efficacy and health risks were intentionally hidden and distorted, then it’s probably to be expected that you would suffer from increased anxiety and depression.
Hatuey: from the linked article
Professor Volpe suspects Covid has driven false beliefs more generally, but says it is too early to say for sure.
“It is very easy to think that Covid may have worsened the prevalence and severity of delusional beliefs, including conspiracy theories. But very ample data are needed to state that,” he said.
Always the clarion call of modern research, they only thing the can firmly conclude is the need for more funding.
Poland is a rather unusual place to find a control group just now.
Kemi`s husband is called Hamish and Badenoch is in Scotland.
Has she been asked her opinions on England and Scotland dissolving the Treaty of Union.
Paul, I don’t think it’s controversial or unexpected that those who believe in what are called covid conspiracy theories would suffer from heightened anxiety or depression. There’s a more interesting question of what comes first, I think, but the study doesn’t reach any satisfactory conclusion on that.
Did anyone listen to Sturgeon’s Renewing Democracy address the other day in which she broached the question of what would happen if Scotland voted for independence in a plebiscitary election and Westminster refused to accept the result?
Spoiler alert: those of you who assumed such an outcome would mean we were independent are likely to be disappointed. Based on her answer, it would be “really serious” but for me the “really serious” thing is that she clearly thinks even at that stage Westminster’s approval would be required… she didn’t explain why.
Did anyone listen to Sturgeon’s Renewing Democracy address the other day in which she broached the question of what would happen if Scotland voted for independence in a plebiscitary election
Apart from the payroll. I would suspect no.
and Westminster refused to accept the result?
For the leader of a scottish national party with independence at the heart of its constitution, the first minister does not seem familiar with england’s historical and present approach to decolonisation. (Check catherine elkins Legacy of Violence: A History of the British Empire.)
Perhaps the first minister in holyrood should read a little less crappy fiction in the time available.
I will check that book out, Paul. I prefer audiobooks these days though, so hopefully…
audio version from within the beast:
link to amazon.co.uk
Hatuey,
Just out of interest, why do you prefer audiobooks?
They must require as much engagement as analogue ones.
I just bought it on Apple, 36 hours…
Paul, I prefer audiobooks because I listen to them when driving. I drive a lot, often about 20 hours per week.
Reading books knocks hell out my eyes too. For some reason reading computer screens doesn’t.
Anyway, looks pretty good in terms of reviews.
Happy to help!
Stu, you did the right thing reporting her to the relevant authority. In a sane country I would have said sue her arse off, but Scotland is no longer a sane country. These people have ruined it for me and countless others. Remember when we used to think unionists were vile?
“If you were arguing in good faith, you’d admit that in the vast majority of self determination (sic) referendums since WW2, the franchise used was residence based, not ethnically or birth right based.” – Ellis
—
I’ve not been arguing, just explaining with facts where you were wrong.
2014 franchise is deid, the legislation that enabled it expired in 2015 – get over it.
Council of Europe’s ‘Code of Good Practice on Referendums’ is your friend, oor friend, a’body’s friend. You should try reading it sometime.
You could also try reading the Vienna Convention on the Succession of States in Respect of Treaties, to settle your angst about the international commyoonity finding out about Scotland for likesy the very first time ever.
Also, you really should be embarrassed at trying to relegate someone’s birthright to a moral issue where I & others should wheesht in case the neighbours get offended.
The SNP will schism it is too broad a coalition to hold. Swinney at one end is a dry as dust Libertarian who wants Scotland to be a small state capitalist hellhole. At the other end are Marxist Socialists.
Whether it happens post a Yes, or post Independence Day it will happen. I wouldn’t put it past Swinney to make a bid to be Tory leader. The Left have been promising to go off and take Labour back to it’s roots and make it electable again.
In fact the SNP has already schismed over women’s rights. Starting with the formation of the ISP and then latterly Alba both filled with ex SNP people. If a Sturgeonite woke rump tries to carry on it will be a small minority. I can see lots of MSPs who disagree with the control freakery and wokery jumping ship too.
New opportunities will spawn new parties. It may see the extinction of old ones. The FibDems, SLab could both go under starved of their London pocket money.
Hatuey.
In the American Senate, Question put to Dr Robert Malone, this week,
The cllr in question by the way did not just verbally make an attack on Stu, if you go back and read it, the cllr is including all commentators,
Which is interesting because it is racist in its group thought, in their mind they have placed commentators together regardless of nationality and presuming that all are white Scots.
Commentators on here are wide and varied, and many be inter- married with other minority groups from other countries,
My brother is married to an African, and I have two very cute nieces.
Wings is tolerant of all people, from all walks of life, from across the world not just Scotland.
This cllr has predjudces to attack the wings blog site and anyone that comments here by default, rather makes a point of attacking us all as scum.
I myself was not born here as I have mentioned many times, and many others of us are not born here, but the one thing we have in common is that we allwant Scotland to be an independent country,
This is what she is has focused on attacking not just Stu Campbell. As she searches for other reasons for hatred such as ageism.
Her racist prejudiced attack is on all of us and she includes all of us in her comments as a nation of people. Ethnic minorities included.
Paul.
Hatuey.
I meant to say, I watched the American Senate put questions to DR Robert Malone on youtube.
Muscleguy,
When independence happens I could not imagine Scotland in general wishing to maintain or keep any of those presently existing parties that have obfuscated Scottish independence on a daily bases.
In fact They actually need to go before we gain independence, because any negotiations under them taken on our behalf would just be another parcel of Rogues selling Scotland down the river in compromises, as NS has already said on Beeb.
James Che @2.30pm.
The Britnat parties at Holyrood could’ve reduced toa rump if Sturgeon backed Salmond’s SNP constituency vote and List vote for the Alba party, but she didn’t because she wanted to maintain the status quo at Holyrood, a big tow-fingers in yir face to the indy masses.
As you say the Fifth Columns at Holyrood will do everything in their powers to thwart an indy Scotland, if we do ditch this rancid union, they’ll need to change, though as with the SNP a thread of Westminster useful idiots runs through them, who will report back to those in charge South of the border.
Scotland has its fair share of deep state functionaries, one of the PM candidates Tom Tugendhat is one a Bilderberger, and a member of the European Leadership Network.
His brother Chris is a well known member of the Henry Jackson Society and the Henry Jackson Initiative.
Muscleguy @ 1.31
Everything points to Sturgeon setting things up to fail. Conspiracy theorists will no doubt say she is following instructions and will now be approved for her next job.
Others might say she has burned herself out with prevarication and has trapped herself in a corner.
Either way, the writing is on the wall, and the fall will come about. She may have escaped to a new job by then. Those not in the SNP, (and some presently in the SNP) who see the inevitable coming, are happy to give apparent support, as they don’t want to be blamed when it all comes crashing down, and it will hasten an end to a very sad chapter on Scottish politics.
Without Sturgeon, the SNP will have no focus other than the bitterness against Alex Salmond by certain senior figures, and the weird policies they have draped round their necks.
As a party of independence they will have no credibility for a long while, if ever. Their legacy will be having reduced Scotland to ruin and preventing independence for years to come.
Andy Wightman (remember him) is now living in a cabin in the woods.
Here’s a wee update on what he’s been doing.
“THE way Andy Wightman views the land is different from how most of us see it. As we sit in front of his log cabin in the woods and take in the view, all I see is the steep plunge of vegetation down to the river below, sun glinting off green leaves, the dazzling panorama of the mountains ahead. But Wightman also sees something else. He reads it like a map of ownership. He talks about how Alcan, for instance, own even the water that runs below, and officially “no one else is allowed to take that water without their permission, because this water is exclusively for their hydroelectric plant to make aluminium.””
link to 12ft.io
I’ve not been arguing, just explaining with facts where you were wrong. “Scott”
You haven’t done that though. You’ve come up with a few non-comparable examples and declared victory. It’s the rhetorical equivalent of the side that’s losing taking their ball home.
2014 franchise is deid, the legislation that enabled it expired in 2015 – get over it.
And yet the fact remains that if there should ever be another referendum, the starting point will be the precedent already set. It is of course possible that the parties will negotiate different terms than they did under the Edinburgh Agreement, and few – whether domestically or internationally – would have any issue with that.
If the SC finds the SG can hold referendums whenever it likes, then the SG can do whatever it has a mandate from the Scottish people to do. Who knows, they might even support your regressive nativist views and vote to exclude all New Scots from voting. That of course would be a very different Scotland from that envisaged during the 2012-14 campaign, and not nearly so attractive to many who supported and voted Yes then.
Also, you really should be embarrassed at trying to relegate someone’s birthright to a moral issue where I & others should wheesht in case the neighbours get offended.
I’ve certainly got no cause for embarrassment. There are moral issues here, as was pointed out in Rev Stu’s original critique of blood and soil ethnic nationalism. The ones who should be embarrassed are those pushing the nativist mantra.
Standing shoulder to shoulder with the political right isn’t something likely to appeal to most Scottish voters, even if it has captured the attention of some on the political fringes, generally those exhibiting a huge cross over with conspiracy theorists, covidiots, climate change deniers, “Great Reset” true believers, Treaty of Union monomaniacs and those who insist Scotland is a colony.
Thankfully they don’t represent more than a small percentage of the movement, however baleful their influence.
Vestas says: 15 July, 2022 at 10:32 pm
The emphasis on who is making these derogatory insults is old and out of touch with modern society.
What is the different between this insult and this Tory scum that is screamed by individuals up here? They have nothing to offer or any alternatives apart from shouting out any conversation.
Individuals like this in any community or political movement is best ignored.
I see your argument on the franchise has suddenly evolved into a purely moral argument, Ellis, one that hinges on your feelings rather than comparative politics. Hatuey
THere’s always been a moral argument against the nativist narrative. Rev Stu pointed that out in his initial fisking of the concept last year. The idea both morally and politically repugnant, but also likely to be self defeating. It is also wildly out of step with our own 2014 precedent, and the precedents historically and constitutionally.
From the point of view of comparative politics, the nativists arguments come up empty, because “Scott”s” valiant attempts to show other countries have done the same are quite simply false: his examples refer to non-self governing territories, so there is no true comparison. Scotland isn’t New Caledonia, Timor L’Este or Gibraltar, whatever Alf Baird and those he has persuaded think.
If the UN was persuaded Scotland was in a colonial situation, we’d know about it and they’d be taking the same measures to report on our situation as they do on places like New Caledonia. Alf Baird writing his article over and over again, and a few dozen people in the movement clapping like performing seals from the cheap seats doesn’t make his case any more convincing.
To sum up, there’s no internationally accepted or expected definition of the franchise as far as referenda are concerned; it is done differently everywhere, as Scott pointed out.
That’s true. There’s no internationally accepted definition of a people, or what constitutes a majority, or a clear question in a referendum either. There is however the example of all the other self determination referendums in recent history. No two situations will be exactly alike, but that doesn’t mean international law, courts and opinion won’t be judged by precedent, as well as the unique circumstances of each case.
The problem nativists have isn’t just a moral one (because they are morally wrong), or even just a political one domestically (because their plans could very well cost us more votes than they gain, so they represent a clear and present danger to the movement even without a referendum due to the corrosive impact of their regressive nationalism on the cause).
One of the biggest issues is the international impact of seeking to exclude a large percentage of non-native Scots from participation in the process of self determination, because it is without precedent, will be seen as regressive and contrary to the 2014 pattern which was widely held up as an example of best practice, and could endanger the chances of international recognition.
Most people in the movement can see therefore discern the negative impact of franchise restriction on a practical as well as a moral level. It’s a shame the same can’t be said of the (thankfully relatively small) basket of deplorables who punt their nativist snake oil in here.
New opportunities will spawn new parties. It may see the extinction of old ones. The FibDems, SLab could both go under starved of their London pocket money. – Muscleguy
Surely that’s always been one of the biggest positives of independence? Post independence, the new Scottish parliament won’t be beholden to the old parties. I’m sure the SNP will still be around, but anyone who thinks it will be able to exert the kind of dominance it has over the past decade or so is living in cloud cuckoo land.
I can’t wait to see what new parties evolve, and whether we end up with new entrants. I hope we move to an Irish style STV system: that’ll put the wind up the entitled larger parties.
That being said, I think those postulating that everything will be different are in for a rude awakening too. 25-30% of Scots will still reliably vote for a conservative party. 5-10% will probably vote for a centrist/liberal party, 5-10% for the Greens.
The centre left doubtless has room for more than just a neo SNP and NuLab old wine in new bottles. Doubtless there will be smaller fringe parties of the left and right, and possibly even some diehard yoons campaigning to rejoin Global UK / Empire 2.0.
Who knows, we might even get some sectional / interest group realted parties representing pensioners, or the isles, or rural communities? If the nativists aren’t careful, perhaps there will be a New Scots party: that’d be poetic justice if nothing else. 🙂
Ms Joji is out of her depth. She is typical of the new breed of SNP “politicians” – rapidly promoted because of her wokist credentials but without political skills or experience, blundering around public life, shooting herself in the foot when not falling into traps.
Republicofscotland.
Aye NS could have viewed equivalent to the queen of Scotland and held in highest esteem IF she had stayed faithful to the Scottish independence.
As it is she is viewed dimly if at all as anything other than a puppet for global ideology that does not work for any Scot.
I was watching the independence march in Wrexham for Wales, and it occurred to me how strong a yes movement would be heard accross Britain and in the wider world if Scotland and Wales actually joined forces literally, carrying our own flags in each others marches,
Maybe Cornwall would join up.
Wales is catching up with Scottish independence pretty quick,
“One of the biggest issues is the international impact of seeking to exclude a large percentage of non-native Scots from participation in the process of self determination (sic), because it is without precedent, will be seen as regressive and contrary to the 2014 pattern which was widely held up as an example of best practice, and could endanger the chances of international recognition.” – Ellis
—
Relax Oinky, one ‘international community’ has a ‘Code of Good Practice on Referendums’ which explicitly states that a referendum franchise can be based on a register of Births, Deaths & Marriages; Self-determination referendums seem the most appropriate for doing so.
Further, if/when the ‘Treaty of Union’ is annulled, the international community most certainly will recognise the event and implications, especially if Scotland lays claim to NATO membership via the Convention on Succession of States in Respect of Treaties, having been a party to all treaties agreed by UK Parliament.
Franchise, an interesting word when you look up the meaning.
” The problem nativists have isn’t just a moral one (because they are morally wrong) ”
What do you think we’re engaged in here , some kind of exercise in proving how nice we are , how compliant with – your idée fixe – the International Community we can be ?
This is a STRUGGLE for National Liberation , the renewal of our status as an Independent Nation , not a fckn Boy Scouts Jamboree
It may not be an armed struggle , but it’s just as Politically difficult as one and our opponents are armed to the teeth with an arsenal of weapons we simply don’t have access to eg an entirely hostile/unscrupulous MSM and Political Class , recourse to Judicial / Police leverage and a Security Service recently empowered to do whatever the fuck it likes in it’s * defence of the Realm * with total impunity .
You can wave your tattered flag of * fairness from an imagined moral high-ground if you like but you’re starting to resemble the apocryphal Japanese soldier still fighting a war that ended years previously .
And FFS stop using Stu’s name in just about every comment you make . Makes you look like a schoolboy trying to impress his teacher
“I was watching the independence march in Wrexham for Wales, and it occurred to me how strong a yes movement would be heard accross Britain and in the wider world if Scotland and Wales actually joined forces literally, carrying our own flags in each others marches,
Maybe Cornwall would join up.
Wales is catching up with Scottish independence pretty quick,”
James Che.
Interesting idea James, however the media is Britnat to its core so very little coverage there I’m afraid. Wales is also further along in the incomer road than Scotland, the 2011 census (more than decade old now) showed that 21% of the Welsh population were born in England, its probably a bit more than that now, I wonder how a ten years residency in a constitutional vote on Wales leaving the union would work out, maybe Wales is too far gone.
As for Scotland, with other countries not giving incomers a constitutional vote, I think a ten years residency for voting on Scottish independence is a good way to go.
Andy Ellis @ 3:27 pm
“To sum up, there’s no internationally accepted or expected definition of the franchise as far as referenda are concerned; it is done differently everywhere, as Scott pointed out.”
What is accepted internationally is that there is of course a significant difference between a NATIONAL franchise and a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise. For any NATIONAL referendum/election we should really try to avoid using a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise in which anybody from anywhere simply by having an address in Scotland may register to then vote to give away the sovereignty of ‘Scots’.
The other aspect here that is also viewed as important is that Self-Determination of ‘a people’ relates to a particular group of people as defined by their distinct history, heritage, culture, language, ethnicity and common suffering, oppression, exploitation etc.
Robert Hughes @4.14pm.
Well said Robert, the moral issue is superceded by a logical one I think, if we opened the franchise to everybody (unlike other nations) it would be simple for a flood of registrations from down South to occur in Scotland, second home owners who very rarely live in Scotland would also be admitted, and it would be quite easy for the MoD to pour military personnel into the country.
Its not about bigotry or the crudely repeated nativism, its about logical and fair way to encompass those who care about Scotland getting the vote on this constitutional question.
This is a STRUGGLE for National Liberation , the renewal of our status as an Independent Nation , not a fckn Boy Scouts Jamboree
Indeed. And we’re supposed to be showing that “our” nationalism is better than other, previously espoused types of nationalism. We’re supposed to be an example of how civic nationalism can lead to self determination without violence, or the armalite in one hand and the ballot in the other.
That doesn’t mean we can expect the other side to roll over for us, or that we don’t have struggle. It doesn’t mean we have to pull our punches, or rely solely on happy clappy positivity to waft us to the sunny uplands of independence without doing the actual work. It also doesn’t mean we have to stoop to regressive blood and soil nativism and disenfranchising up to 20% of the voting base because we lost last time.
You can wave your tattered flag of * fairness from an imagined moral high-ground if you like but you’re starting to resemble the apocryphal Japanese soldier still fighting a war that ended years previously .
Says you. So what? I’ll be here arguing in favour of the merits of civic nationalism as long as there are nativists setting out their repugnant, regressive anti-immigrant views. Populists need to be tackled: whether Law and Justice in Poland, Orban in Hungary, Erdogan in Turkey, or ethnic nationalists here. If anyone is fighting a lost cause its the nativists, not me.
The kind of Scotland they want to build isn’t one I want to see realised, but I’m pretty confident it will never come come to pass, because either an independent Scotland will be a civic nationalist project, or it will never happen. Nativists are making the latter more likely, even if they remain a minority in the movement.
And FFS stop using Stu’s name in just about every comment you make . Makes you look like a schoolboy trying to impress his teacher
I do it because it’s such a glaring example of why they are out of step with mainstream opinion, but also because I know it triggers the nativists no end. Way to prove my point. 🙂
The biggest, And I mean big as in massive Elephant in the room is how many people swan past the fact the Scots were never invited to join the 1707 treaty of the union, according to history records on UK parliament site 2022.
There either laughing at the Scots for being taken for a long ride of nothing more than propaganda for 300 years.
Or they are pointing out that the Scots do not need to ask THEM for independence.
“Indeed. And we’re supposed to be showing that “our” nationalism is better than other, previously espoused types of nationalism. We’re supposed to be an example of how civic nationalism can lead to self determination without violence”
This is a bit wayward we’re not trying to produce exceptional nationalism, we just want the right to, like ever other nation have to determine who can and cannot vote on this constitutional matter.
We don’t need to set examples and lead the way on civic nationalism, we’re not trying to put Scotland on a pedestal for the world to admire when it comes to constitutional matters, you need to get this utopian nonsense out of your head.
….if we opened the franchise to everybody (unlike other nations)
Which “other nations” would that be then? Can you point to examples of all the nations which have held self determination referendums that didn’t use inclusive, residence based criteria? (And no, instances involving non-self governing territories are NOT the same, however often “Scott” argues otherwise…)
…. it would be simple for a flood of registrations from down South to occur in Scotland, second home owners who very rarely live in Scotland would also be admitted, and it would be quite easy for the MoD to pour military personnel into the country.
So we have to abandon civic nationalism because some things *might* happen…? Riiiiight…. How many second home owners are there is Scotland? How many voted in #indyref1? How many of them would qualify to vote by dint of residence, or being on the General Election register? You think the UK MoD has thousands of personnel just sitting around it can ship north specifically to vote No in an indyref? Seriously? That seems…..improbable….at best. Even if it happened, it’d be pretty obvious and seen as a transparent attempt to stack the odds: I doubt international observers would accept it as fair.
Its not about bigotry or the crudely repeated nativism, its about logical and fair way to encompass those who care about Scotland getting the vote on this constitutional question.
You may think so, but I’m sure many others – including an awful lot of independence supporting New Scots you’re planning to disenfranchise – would disagree. The nativist narrative is neither logical, nor fair. You’re advocating for the disenfranchisement of many people who care deeply about Scotland becoming independent, whilst handing ammunition to our opponents and standing shoulder to shoulder with regressive, populist ideals. “Bollocks to that!” as a wise man once said. 🙂
“Which “other nations” would that be then?”
One recent example that springs to mind, and I posted it in here was the Scots guy who lives in Denmark whose wife has lived in the country since she was fourteen yet she still isn’t fully entitled to vote on constitutional matters, it can be found on Ian Lawson blog.
“So we have to abandon civic nationalism because some things *might* happen”
Better safe than sorry, we’re dealing with one of the most nefarious parliaments in the world that has interfered in election in other nations such as Kenya, it would be foolish not to think that Westminster wouldn’t go to extremes to keep Scotland in this union.
“You may think so, but I’m sure many others – including an awful lot of independence supporting New Scots you’re planning to disenfranchise – would disagree.”
Well if they care about Scotland enough then they’ll understand on this one particular vote.
We have to bear in mind when comparing what type of franchise we want in Scotland on this very important constitutional matter is that other nations are sovereign independent states, so enfranchising incomers and giving them he vote will NOT affect those countries sovereignty, in a way that it would affect Scotland’s on leaving this union.
“You’re advocating for the disenfranchisement of many people who care deeply about Scotland becoming independent” – Ellis
—
Not permanently, just for one day. It’s considered good practice to do so among the ‘international community’ ka Council of Europe.
Vote No if you want, Andy. You can tell your wife how it feels, if she misses out.
Advocate again for D&G, Borders, Orkney, Shetland, Bass Rock etc to secede from Scotland anaw, if you want.
Shout for the diaspora to be both included and excluded from the vote, depending on which day it is, if you want.
Dismiss the Treaty of Union & Claim of Right Act 1689 as irrelevant, if you want.
Keep projecting your own contradictions, something you seem to have no control over.
Republicofscotland.
Statistics imply that a good per portion of residence in Wales are English born, as are a good per portion of people in Scotland,
However on that subject we see many English for Scottish independence in the rallies and marches, Wales I presume would be much the same,
As in 2014 many people from England were on the Scottish sites at that time asking could they join us if we gained our independence, even NS mentioned and took note of this phenomena.
Many others were suggesting stretching an altering the Scottish border so they too would come under the jurisdiction of Scotland.
Although many people, mainly the media and politicians…. try inciting hatred between the Scots and the English. Often using topics such as sport, religion and finances to instigate rivalary between the two nations.
But the overall view I am seeing, is how very discontented, disconnected and forgotten The English, and people living in England feel compared to the their Parliament and the bubble of London with wealthier counties of fancy houses that the rich commute to and from at a whim,
The real people across Britain actually have more in common than the deliberately propagated advertised divides.
There are those that are susceptible to the propaganda I do not deny, the same can be said of Some Scots that still believe the incitement to dislike the other nation,
Neither of the four nations people is a accurate description or replication of what the media and politicians Portray.
I wonder how many in a discontented England on seeing Scotland and Wales join forces politically for independence would soon be, only to willing to leave behind the the England that No longer looks after its people.
I bet Cornwall would join, they have been crying out to be recognised for a very long time.
Muscleguy says:
16 July, 2022 at 1:31 pm
The SNP will schism it is too broad a coalition to hold …
In fact the SNP has already schismed over women’s rights. Starting with the formation of the ISP and then latterly Alba both filled with ex SNP people.
Let’s cut out the trying to rewrite history malarkey. You know very well like the rest of us that the ISP just like Alba was not formed by people who had left the SNP over women’s rights or any other sort of moral bloody high ground whatsoever, but had more than a few of its prime movers being those who had left the party after falling out with it over what could charitably be called “personality clashes”, or less charitably too many piggies fighting over the swill trough in the eyes of the party’s detractors.
Some of them had barely been in the SNP five minutes and their fast track promotions c/o central office diktat for “tactical reasons” mightily pissed off branch members that had struggled for years for the cause, been spat at or worse going round the doors or manning stalls, and now were seeing outsiders – and in some cases well known political opponents of Scottish nationalism – being handed on a silver platter the rewards of others’ hard work for little thanks.
Some had left in the huff because they hadn’t been accorded the party promotions they felt they deserved. That few to none followed their “principled” exit in solidarity appear to have awarded them no sense of perspective. Even Tommy Sheridan had some when he left the Scottish Socialist Party.
Much as I despise the SNP and what it has become, the squabbling anti-SNP Scottish nationalist factions are long overdue a good long look at themselves and some true honesty about their motives for what they are doing.
Is it about community and country? Or is it revenge? Or is it trying to get back on the gravy train – perhaps hoping if they make big enough nuisances of themselves the SNP will buy off their vote splitting with nomination for a safe council/Holyrood/Parliamentary seat again? Whatever the case, they’re a million miles away from living their pipe dreams
Right now, the sheer bloody minded counter-productiveness of the ISP, Alba,
I Can’t Believe It’s Not The Free Scotland PartySovereignty, etc. makes the majority of the Scottish population, let alone electorate, cynical as to their motives – those who even care less about their existences.The squabbling array of tinpot clan chiefs waxing lyrical about uniting the tribes to a higher purpose when they cannot even unite among themselves is one thing. It’s when they have clearly not the slightest intention of uniting and rather of fighting each other to the death over the scraps from Sturgeon’s table that make many looking on to think “why bother?” – if that sounds snide, you only have to look at their disastrous Holyrood and council election results to date for the proof.
The anti-SNP Scottish nationalist forces will unite, or they will die as irrelevences to all but their own egos – and right now the smart money is firmly on the latter.
James Che @5.54pm.
James if I recall correctly around 72% of the people from the rest of the UK who “resided” in Scotland voted against Scottish independence. I put resided in inverted commas, because resided covers a broad base on duration of residency.
With regards to the 2014 indyref.
“There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken.
And if they cast their ballots in line with the findings of the Edinburgh University study,
more than 300,000 of them will have voted No.”
I’m pretty confident that, that number of incomers is up now its 2022, and that we wouldn’t see much of a difference in voting intentions of this particular group.
What is accepted internationally is that there is of course a significant difference between a NATIONAL franchise and a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise. For any NATIONAL referendum/election we should really try to avoid using a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise in which anybody from anywhere simply by having an address in Scotland may register to then vote to give away the sovereignty of ‘Scots’.
If we use a UK GE franchise, all British citizens over 18 will get a vote, plus British overseas voters, resident Irish citizens, resident qualifying Commonwealth citizens, and nobody else.
If we use Scottish parliament or council franchise, British citizens over 16 get the vote, British overseas voters are excluded, resident Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens qualify, anyone “legally resident” qualifies, as do convicted prisoners detained in prison serving 12 months or less.
Which franchise do you actually propose we use for either referendums or plebiscitary elections then Alf?
And if you’re proposing to change the franchise from the 2014 pattern, or that used in other comparable self determination referendums, which categories of “New Scots” are you proposing are excluded, on what grounds, and how many people do you think that will disenfranchise?
Do you think there is any danger that introducing franchise restrictions could lose us votes and/or persuade existing or potential Yes voters to change their minds? How will we know if one group cancels the other out?
The other aspect here that is also viewed as important is that Self-Determination of ‘a people’ relates to a particular group of people as defined by their distinct history, heritage, culture, language, ethnicity and common suffering, oppression, exploitation etc.
The trouble is though Alf, as the Canadian Supreme Court observed in its discussion of the Clarity Act, there is no definition of “a people”. In Quebec in 1995, around 92.5% of the total population voted in the referendum, and they cam agonisingly close to winning: 54,000 votes out of 5 million, with 49.42% voting for independence. Interestingly, the real indigenous “peoples” of Quebec: the Inuit and Cree voted overwhelmingly against independence for Quebec, by 96% and 96.3% respectively.
As far as I’m aware, the definition of “people” used in most of the self determination referendums which weren’t explicitly colonial, included non-native born people. The referendums in the Baltic States didn’t exclude Russophone residents – most of whom had been planted by the Soviets to ensure their control post 1945. The former Yugoslav republics didn’t disenfranchise those born in other republics. The Quebecois and Catalans didn’t exclude those not born there either.
Of course, you may not be one of the extremists arguing for the exclusion of anyone who can’t prove they were born here. Perhaps you’re a diluted nativist and only wan’t to exclude a certain smaller percentage based on an unrealistically long residence criteria that no other country has used?
Nativism and populism are in the end twa cheeks o’ the same erse, eh Alf? A Scot arguing for the exclusion of those not born here from the demos is functionally and morally indistinguishable from Orban or Kaczy?ski in Poland railing against immigrants there. I don’t much fancy the company you keep.
The original blog article is a stoater o’ a ready made script fur Shauny Boy.
Let’s be absolutely honest about the franchise.
There is one group of incomers that will actively try to stop independence. The English! We can’t pretend it’s not an issue. We will never persuade the majority of them to stop being British, and become Scottish citizens.
This is not exclusion. Because as we know most other incomers don’t carry such baggage. So what do we do? Do we pretend it’s not an issue and never get independence, that Scots voted for.Or do we discuss who gets to vote?
As an indigenous Scot. I welcome all people to our nation. What I don’t accept is their right to veto what Scots vote for.
“Perhaps you’re a diluted nativist and only wan’t (sic) to exclude a certain smaller percentage based on an unrealistically long residence criteria that no other country has used?” – Ellis
Gibraltar and the ‘not less than 10 years’ in referendum of 2002 says hello.
If that “voluntary union” referendum isn’t comparable to ours, may God strike me down.
QED
“There is one group of incomers that will actively try to stop independence. The English! We can’t pretend it’s not an issue. We will never persuade the majority of them to stop being British, and become Scottish citizens.”
Big Jock.
Significant or not, around 82% of folk who voted no in 2014 indyref identified in a religious manner as following the Church of England, by that large percentage figure, I suspect that the group was incomers from the rest of the UK.
One recent example that springs to mind, and I posted it in here was the Scots guy who lives in Denmark whose wife has lived in the country since she was fourteen yet she still isn’t fully entitled to vote on constitutional matters, it can be found on Ian Lawson blog.
Not even REMOTELY comparable. However often it is pointed out to hard of thinking nativists, the franchise used to gain independence (in the overwhelming number of cases based on residence criteria, NOT citizenship, birth or ethnic criteria) is NOT THE SAME as the franchise already independent countries use for voting on constitutional matters.
A people who have not yet gained their independence don’t HAVE citizenship criteria yet, because that only happens after they win independence and can decide who qualifies, what the criteria are and issue passports to those who elect to take them. That’s how it works.
We don’t impose future citizenship criteria on existing residents because we have no idea how many residents will become citizens. Similarly, if you were arguing that ONLY future citizens should get a say, you’d logically have to argue that Scots born currently residing abroad – and possibly their children and grandchildren – should be able to apply for inclusion in any new register of voters you were going to put together specifically for the one day of the vote.
The Generalitat in Catalonia compiled a new electoral register for the (abortive) referendum in 2017, and Catalans abroad were allowed to register to vote. Relatively few did so however, probably more due to the fact the referendum was seen by many as doomed to fail. I have a suspicion more Catalans abroad are pro-independence than their Scots equivalents however.
Well if they care about Scotland enough then they’ll understand on this one particular vote.
Some might, and some might not. The question is how many are you prepared to piss off, and how will you know how well or badly the nativist narrative is playing? My default position is to support independence, but not under absolutely any conditions. It’s good to be open minded, but not so open minded your brain falls out.
The prospect of independence gained by pandering to the worst instincts of regressive, blood and soil nativists isn’t one I view with equanimity. It’s not going to help win independence if you move the goalposts to exclude some % of New Scots to offset the imbalance between native and non-native voters, if you alienate as many or more existing independence voters.
Gibraltar and the ‘not less than 10 years’ in referendum of 2002 says hello.
If that “voluntary union” referendum isn’t comparable to ours, may God strike me down.
QED
Gibraltar isn’t a country, it’s a British Overseas Territory. Gibraltar isn’t like Scotland. New Caledonia isn’t like Scotland. Don’t make me find my toy farm animals to do my Father Ted and Dougal “Small…..Far away…..” act.
No matter how many times you try to claim colonial situations are the same as Scotland (or Quebec or Catalonia, or indeed all the other non-colonial self determination struggles discussed over the past months) it becomes no more convincing, still less true.
There is no God, which is just as well, as if there was you’d be a black, crinkled heap.
Probably better not to used QED when you haven’t actually proven something. I thought you were supposed to be some kind of scientist?
“Not even REMOTELY comparable.”
It was just an example, further reading
link to en.wikipedia.org
“if you were arguing that ONLY future citizens should get a say,”
Actually I’m not adverse to those who have an active ten years residency in Scotland having the vote, that shows a bit of commitment to Scotland.
“The question is how many are you prepared to piss off,”
We’ll go around all night like this if you keep this up, if the they care about Scotland what does it matter missing out on one vote.
“The prospect of independence gained by pandering to the worst instincts of regressive, blood and soil nativists isn’t one I view with equanimity”
You are of course entitled to your opinion and your hopes of getting a raise out of those who don’t agree with your point of view by using such language. Most level headed folk will dismiss it as petulant nonsense as I do.
“We don’t impose future citizenship criteria on existing residents because we have no idea how many residents will become citizens.” – Ellis
“It’s not going to help win independence if you move the goalposts to exclude some % of New Scots to offset the imbalance between native and non-native voters” – also Ellis
—
Has tha’ nowt non-alcoholic in t’fridge?
Just ignore them all now Rev..
They’re just trolling, trying to get you banned, again.
Republicofscotland.
Big Jock.
The issue is self explanatory when we look at statistics and the bigger picture.
Andy is right also when he speaks of people that can and often are planted prior to elections to bring a skewed vote result, such as Baltic States.
So there needs to be a mechanism for making sure this does not happen in the next independence vote, IT was Boris Johnstone whom said the Russians had interfered in the last Scottish referendum not so long ago on television.
So there needs to be a time limit of residency perhaps of ten years to ensure no interference from those quarters.
Between what Boris johnstone, and Andy Ellis has pointed out, besides your selfs and many others here about plants and interference in Scottish elections it makes sense to have a generous but limited residency of perhaps 10 years.
Some will pine at missing out on the independence vote, but to ensure accuracy and no interference from China, Russia, EU, or any other country including the rest of UK politics it has to be,
Andy.
Thank you , you have been wise in pointing out to us ( ie the Baltic States ) how any of these foreign states could interfere in our vote if it was not in their best interests and there was not a limited residency Franchise.
Big Jock.
Republicofscotland.
Also thank you for explaining this from a different point of view.
Republicofscotland @ 5:43 pm
“There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken”
If you factor in ‘extraction’, the figure will be much higher, possibly approaching 1 million overall. Which might suggest that perhaps half or more of the ‘No’ vote (incl EU citizens) comprised people who do not primarily hold to a Scottish identity/ethnicity. This also suggests the ‘No’ vote to be ethnically driven to quite a significant extent.
As James Kelman said, ‘if you want to know your (national) identity look at who your relatives are’.
Let’s get something absolutely straight.
Independence is our destiny, our decision by whatever route that works.
If it is by a referendum then it’s our referendum not for anybody else’s to either comment control or interfere!
She has obviously defamed you.
But according to the rotten to the core Scottish justice, she doesn’t know she has defamed you so she can’t be held liable.
There is no justice in Scotland.
Who can mind when aw they good cunts of the “international community” rocked up on these shores to enforce “gold standard” democratic practices, and pulled up and sanctioned the UK for that Better Together and Project Fear bullshit…
Ya ken, jist like this most obvious attempt to influence a load of both European minded Scots, and EU citizens residing in Scotland to vote a certain way… Na? me neither…
link to twitter.com
Handy as fook that aw those EU citizens enfranchised for the IndyRef vote still have their EU citizenship so could / can always move elsewhere in the EU now that voting NO turned out so shit.
They had that backup option if it turned out they were gonnae get played, but not so lucky for the actual Scots though…
It was just an example, further reading
I’m not sure what it is you’re finding hard to grasp. The two things aren’t the same. It is generally accepted that the voting franchise for a self determination referendum will be residence based: that’s the pattern in virtually all the referendums you care to name. That means they generally don’t require any residence period, or if they do it’s a short period like 24 months. They don’t exclude people for not being born there, or on the basis that
You’re linking to, and confusing, the criteria set for already independent countries for voter eligibility. Whether you doing it knowingly or not doesn’t matter. The two things aren’ the same.
Either you don’t see that because you’re being deliberately disingenuous, or because you just didn’t know.
You are of course entitled to your opinion and your hopes of getting a raise out of those who don’t agree with your point of view by using such language. Most level headed folk will dismiss it as petulant nonsense as I do.
It’s not about getting a raise out of people, I just think when people are punting policies I regard as regressive and damaging to the movement they should expect to be called out for it and be challenged.
The idea that you’re trying to take the moral high ground, or that you are in any way representative of “level headed folk” will be treated with the derision it deserves given your MO.
I would be curious to know what % of English citizens now moved to Scotland and genuinely supportive of Independence, (and there are a fair number of them), but would they feel insulted or take offence at being denied a vote in a Constitutional matter. If they’re anything like me, I’d bet the number would be tiny.
For my part, if I was to emigrate to a foreign country, I certainly would not expect all the entitlements of national citizenship from day one, and even if I somehow was given a vote, I would most likely abstain from voting purely on a point of principle. I would feel like a visitor to their country for a very long time, hoping for acceptance but never being presumptuous about it, and it would take many years of residency and contributions to my new “home” state before I might expect some small degree of entitlement.
I would expect the vast majority of English now living in Scotland wouldn’t be offended in the slightest to be denied a vote on a Scottish Constitutional matter. And of those who did object, I would wager the vast majority would be of Unionist persuasion, and utterly guiltless about interfering with Scottish affairs.
Show me the evidence which supports the suggestion that English immigrants who would be remaining in Scotland after Independence would be offended by being excluded from a Constitutional matter. We are looking to make a problem where none would properly exist.
A period of residency, I would suggest 5 years minimum, seems eminently sensible, and I genuinely would not expect any serious protest or objection. I would also have little regard for any objections which were raised.
I might move to France, qualify for French citizenship, but I’d be withered, old,
grey, and senile before I ever felt I was French and entitled to speak for France. I might contribute to the debate, express an opinion, even perhaps declare an interest, but never expecting any entitlement to vote.
The link I posted last night, of the debate with Margo Macdonald, Teddy Taylor etc…
Hugh MacDiarmid appears, at around the 22 min mark:
Regardless of what one thinks of that viewpoint, it is right there, from the horse’s mouth – no mealy-mouthed PC dancing around the issue. He states plainly what he wants and does it using language which anyone can understand.
The pros and cons of MacDiarmid’s stance are debatable, and that’s the whole point – they have to be discussed, in open format discourse of the sort he was taking part in there. Shutting these voices out from the debate – be it in 1977 or now – is counterproductive. The passions behind such statements don’t just disappear because they’ve been censored.
link to youtube.com
Ian McDiarmid was being utterly honest. A rare thing in politics and life in general these days.
He viewed England and Britain the way the Irish did in the late 19th century. With utter contempt and disdain. Look at England today, is it any better. Look at how they treat us, and we are supposed to play nice!
I want a Republic. I view devolution as a distraction and power retained. Now it is being used to lock Scotland into the UK. On the invented basis that domestic law can hold a devolved nation forever.
If devolution didn’t exist , we would have declared independence in 2015. We won a majority , regardless of the argument it wasn’t about independence.
Sturgeon in Holyrood vetoed the victory. Because she is tied to devolution.
Come on, Ian B @ 9.26. You know full well that Hugh MacDiarmid voted No because of the 1979 franchise: dead men can vote when Britannia waives/pochles the rules 🙂 .
Breeks says:
16 July, 2022 at 9:19 pm
I would be curious to know what % of English citizens now moved to Scotland and genuinely supportive of Independence, (and there are a fair number of them), but would they feel insulted or take offence at being denied a vote in a Constitutional matter. If they’re anything like me, I’d bet the number would be tiny.
So because you wouldn’t feel offended, you reckon they won’t feel offended. That’s called confirmation bias.
For my part, if I was to emigrate to a foreign country, I certainly would not expect all the entitlements of national citizenship from day one, and even if I somehow was given a vote, I would most likely abstain from voting purely on a point of principle. I would feel like a visitor to their country for a very long time, hoping for acceptance but never being presumptuous about it, and it would take many years of residency and contributions to my new “home” state before I might expect some small degree of entitlement.
But that’s just the point, English people living in Scotland – and for that matter Welsh or Northern Irish – are not in a foreign country, they’re in part of the United Kingdom, and have every right to get royally pissed at the notion they’d be disenfranchised in an election on the future of the place they’ve bought a house, paid taxes to the local council, etc. ‘cos “ethnic group, maaaan!”
Much as I can understand where the nativist point of view on this comes from, the problem with it is when you come across those who interpret the land they’re in as part of a different country entirely, and moreover one they belong to.
I would expect the vast majority of English now living in Scotland wouldn’t be offended in the slightest to be denied a vote on a Scottish Constitutional matter. And of those who did object, I would wager the vast majority would be of Unionist persuasion, and utterly guiltless about interfering with Scottish affairs.
Wait, what?
Someone who pays taxes, works to make their locality better, does voluntary work, etc. is told “sorry, but you can’t vote in this ‘cos you’re English, but all those lazy bastards up the scheme who have never done a stroke for anyone or anything in their lives except for themselves will be entitled to vote ‘cos they’re Scottish ‘un that,” … in your world view … is not going to be offended in the slightest by this.
Offended? They’d go ballistic, and rightly so.
Show me the evidence which supports the suggestion that English immigrants who would be remaining in Scotland after Independence would be offended by being excluded from a Constitutional matter. We are looking to make a problem where none would properly exist.
You are proffering a straw man asking for evidence for a question that if asked by any newspaper or government official would spark an outcry – which is why none of them would be dumb enough to do so.
It smacks alarmingly of the stuff the full fat nazi version of the National Front in the 1970s used to come away with demanding all New Commonwealth citizens removed from the electoral register (which ironically would have cost them votes in some places, but that’s another story!)
Show me the evidence which supports the suggestion that English immigrants who would be remaining in Scotland after Independence would be offended by being excluded from a Constitutional matter. We are looking to make a problem where none would properly exist.
How do you know? What evidence would there be other than asking them / polling on the subject, or figuring out how they actually voted after the event? Just because you say you think the numbers wouldn’t be significant, doesn’t make it true.
I know quite a few long term residents who support independence. I doubt many of them would feel good about being denied a vote on the future of the country they call home, where their children live, where they’ve worked and contributed for years, all because a cadre of regressive populists and nativists have let their anti-immigrant sentiment over turn the civic nationalism of the movement.
You personally may not see a problem. Others disagree. The onus is on you and others advocating for change to justify the undoubted harm it will cause. As those who oppose you keep pointing out, your proposed policy is both morally wrong and politically dangerous.
Nobody uses 5 year residence criteria for self determination referendums. Please try to get it through your heads that the qualification periods for gaining citizenship, or for voting when you move to another country as an immigrant ARE NOT THE SAME THING as voting in a self determination referendum. It really isn’t hard to discern why these two things are different, and to discover that virtually all previous examples have used residence criteria, not nativist critera.
For as long as nativists keep up the disinformation and special pleading, I’ll correct it and oppose their deeply unpleasant and politically regressive views.
We are not on the same side.
Today I put the radio on to catch the midday news, then Off The Ball.
I forgot that my watch is set approx 5 mins ‘fast’, so yon comedy show was on. Des Clarke and guests.
This stuff is heavily scripted. ‘Live’ audience there to react but there’s nothing spontaneous about any of it. Ostensibly, it’s a ‘quiz’…
When I switched on the guests were dealing with a topical question, about golf. The female guest (English) said she knew nothing about golf but had heard of the Claret Cup: “But seeing as we’re in Scotland, perhaps we should call it the Tennent’s Superlager can?” Cue laughter. But it sounded half-hearted, a wee bit embarrassed. And no wonder…
This is typical of the shite that is rammed down our necks every day in so many ways, and has been for generations.
Would you let someone come into your home, insult you and your family, make jokes about your country, and then just forget about it all? Would you ever invite them back again?
‘It’s just banter!’
Aye. Right.
We’re dealing with characters (British Establishment) who are still smarting that they’ve lost their Empire. Do they give a solitary fuck about ‘playing fair’ and the ‘ethical standards’ demanded by the ‘international community’?
Gie’s peace, FFS…
🙁
If England was to have an independence referendum, they’d exclude people that wouldn’t be excluded in Scotland.
How?
Foreign citizens don’t get much chance to vote on anything in the land of the
free to do as they’re toldterminally stupid, and most certainly not at state or federal level.Now, Ellis is quite happy for a resident Yank to vote in a referendum in Scotland, if using a Local Govt. franchise.
That same Yank can vote in Scottish Parliament elections, and elections for Senedd Cymru.
But, they cannot vote in UK General Elections, those for the Northern Ireland Assembly, or local elections in England.
The franchise has to change.
It seems to me that including English nationals in a vote for Scottish independence is self-contradictory. Surely self-determination, as the name implies, is to be determined by the Scots? If I lived in England I would not expect to be allowed to vote in constitutional matters that are for the English to decide.
Oh look, another one calling out the Rev’s horrible horribleness to the oppressed …
link to twitter.com
@Saffron Robe (10.22) –
Your point echoes what Breeks said at 9.19.
Why would any of us in Scotland ever assume that we have any say in what happens in Surrey, Liverpool, Devon or any other part of this island?
I’m not ‘better’ than any of the citizens from those places. But I have different priorities, as they do.
Ignoring that basic truth is the kind of dangerous idiocy that allows unaccountable bodies such as the UN, WEF and NATO to make decisions on our behalf with not a shred of ‘democracy’ involved.
If that’s ‘nativist’ then so be it. Guilty as charged.
Ian, Stu Cosgrove is the epitome of the “know your place” mentality and doesn’t need anyone from down south to help him.
Fourteen years later, and he’s still a whiny wee prick about Gretna having the audacity to deny his precious St Johnstone their “rightful elevation” even after their dirty tricks with Alan Main. Aye, it’s “buying your way through the leagues” when it’s your opponents doing it, not when you are. Those village scum should know their place and stick to cricket and Extreme Dry Stone Dyking.
As for Tam Cowan – writes for the Sun and the Daily Record, which have done more for stereotyping Scotland as a land of scheme goblins, tuppenny gangsters, alcoholics, bigots and sheep shaggers than even Edward Pearce at The Guardian managed.
Don’t criticise the English for using the very insulting stereotypes we love to use ourselves because we think it makes us “hard”.
@Mark Boyle (10.40) –
Thanks for sharing.
😉
Ellis talks bollocks, which fails by – simply reading the applicable documents, or a bit of common-sense and a basic level of geopolitical knowledge – then claims he is right because of his “expert status”.
In a way, it is quite good that he is always banging his drum, for it reminds us all – we were shafted on this issue, and it was NOT normal by recognised international standards. Now, if we all stopped talking about it, everyone might think it has been “fixed” – but I don’t see anyone with the power to do so, doing anything about it, at all. I think they are feart, as if they try to touch it, in any way, 1000 “Ellises” will be on them, attacking as a swarm … it will be so bad, you may as well just wear the armband and the trenchcoat and get it over with …
But it’s a fudged issue that does need to be sorted. Because? – “reasons” … very pressing reasons.
I think I saw the phrase “demographic change” mentioned; this is a camouflaged, polite way of saying quite nasty things
… so let’s talk UK census – my 2 “wild guesses”
– ENGLAND IS CONSIDERABLY MORE “MULTICULTURAL” than it was in 2011. “Considerably” means “a fuck of a lot”. And the real numbers will be even worse than the official ones as a lot of people, people you would most like to know about, are not going to put themselves on any register, not even for the stats
– and simultaneously, a certain class of ENGLANDER (WITH MEANS) IS HIGHTAILING IT TO “LILYWHITE SCOTLAND”, (like England 50 years ago); but on the quiet, not telling anyone their real reasons, just “quality of life”, following a “life ambition to make artisanal cheese in Orkney”. Scotland’s middle class is already half anglo, and the nationalism question has within it a covert class war. Check out the Daily Mail, it is almost becoming the “Highland Property Gazette”. Or watch Landward, where native Scots are as rare as our pine marten
The only “BLOOD AND SOIL” problem Scotland has is the “blood and soil Little Englander” who comes up here, and just assumes Scotland = Britain = England, and that Scots are just English with funny accents. He is not a SOFT NO. He probably laments the loss of Matebeleland. Scotland is his escape hatch, the best bits, of course, which he can buy up in bulk for the price of a flat in central London. FPD Savills, Scottish Field, House of Bruar – done.
England is well known to be OVER POPULATED AND UNDER RESOURCED, Scotland the opposite, but we get “one size fits all” policies, being in the UK. There is a claim that analysis of food sales from the markets and shit levels in the sewers, puts England’s real population at > 70M. Now, given south east England is one giant FLOOD PLAIN, and there is a huge need for HOUSING – that is a problem. Some bright young wonk in some ministry is going to have a lightbulb moment, which amounts to – Scotland, being used as the solution to England’s problem. Scotland can become a DUMPING GROUND FOR “EXCESS POPULATION”, though the less good bits (“weaponised migration”!).
Scots, over time, become like “INJUNS ON THE RESERVATION”. Maybe we will get a casino, but not an oil well. You can see it in your mind’s eye – some fast stream twat with his OS maps and a spreadsheet – wealthy middle class engiish will have the Highlands and Edinburgh, the assorted ragbag “excess English” (all kinds) will get the Borders/Galloway, and the natives we will confine to the M8 corridor. Sorted. A bit like the Gaza Strip with a motorway. Now you can have as many indyrefs as you want (under the old rules) with nae danger of YES ever winning.
We should also remember climate change is going to work out well for us – almost no loss of land, and a better, warmer climate, like the south of France in the 1960s by 2100. England will be an archipelago while we can be growing wine grapes. Even Mother Nature is on our side.
When you think of it like this, a 5 year delay from “doing the bleeding obvious” from the FM – makes a lot of sense. Just because you never saw the fiddle does not mean it was clean.
England didn’t allow EU citizens a vote in Brexit. They would have lost! It’s exactly like the RUK migrants in Scotland, but in reverse. Allowing them the vote will likely lose us the referendum.
The EU citizens had a vested interest in staying in the EU. The English for identity reasons have the same in built bias.
The difference is the EU citizens weren’t trying to stop Britain. They just wanted to live and work there. The English in Scotland want the best of both worlds for them. To live in Scotland under English rule! So they can say we are all British. It’s baggage they carry with them wherever they go I am afraid.
Confused. I agree. I once heard a brilliant quote about posh English Liberal Democrats who moved to Scotland: ” They see Scotland as a place to collect butterflies”.
They never live in the industrial parts of Scotland. It’s always a tartan shop in Tobermory, or arts and crafts in Elgin. They don’t contribute to the local economy or wider economy.The culture that once existed in the Highlands is gone. Scotland’s culture is kept alive in Glasgow, Dundee and other working class cities.
Edinburgh was lost decades ago to Anglo Scots and class driven ya yas. Thankfully the majority of Scots live in the central belt. So we might not get a yes in the Highlands, but the big cities will get us over tge line.
I’m not qualified to argue with The Venice Commission which is composed of constitutional experts from around 60 countries, 47 of which are member states of the Council of Europe, and which has made clear its position on the franchise when it comes to referenda;
“a nationality requirement may apply”
“a residence requirement may be imposed”
It should be up to us (Scotland) to decide how we manage these things and I would be happy for us to do so on the basis of the advice given above.
Alf makes the point that we used the register for local elections in 2014 and that’s true but it’s really the only register we have. Maybe it’s about time we developed a register for national elections, like other countries (including the UK); Scotland is after all a nation, even if it isn’t yet a full-fledged nation-state.
The argument, then, isn’t really about the franchise for referendums as such; it’s about the franchise for national elections (as opposed to local). Scotland currently doesn’t have a separate franchise or register for national elections and voting.
Why would Ellis or anyone else want to deprive Scotland of the right to conduct elections normally, as most other countries do, with one register for local elections and another for national elections?
Isn’t that what we are all striving for, to be a normal country?
When you make identity politics your main objective you end up with morons and folk out of their depth. The sense of entitlement coming from this councillor is staggering. It doesn’t look like she is able to back up any of the allegations so I would proceed with legal action as that is the lesson she needs to learn.
Modern day wokes tend to come from privileged back grounds (not all) and they have a massive sense of entitlement. They think only their opinion matters and anyone who disagrees with them needs to be cancelled. This councillor is doing all the modern day woke moves to try and cancel wings. For that reason I think legal action is essential as what the wokes don’t like is getting in trouble legally and financially. They will soon stop the bs when they learn they can’t say stuff with no validation.
It is interesting to note that certain mind readers whose proclamations we are all familiar with demands evidence from anyone who disputes his narratives yet never furnishes the evidence for his own claims, he asserts that the vast majority of people will never accept any change to the franchise for voting on indy , he asserts that voters would be outraged at excluding anyone from voting on indy because it would taint our civic nationalism of which we are so proud and which we are so heavily invested in
He asserts that most countries will refuse to accept a restrictive franchise , he asserts that other countries will refuse to recognise Scotland if we dared to meddle with the franchise because he instinctively knows this despite providing no evidence
I wonder if the native Americans or the first nations of Canada , New Zealand , Australia or anywhere else would be happy to be thought of as
“but all those lazy bastards up the scheme who have never done a stroke for anyone or anything in their lives except for themselves will be entitled to vote ‘cos they’re Scottish ‘un that”
There appears to be some posters who like to refer to their fellow countrymen as schemies or lazy bastards from the scheme which highlights their commitment and belief in the civic nationalism mantra , is this civic nationalism restricted to the middle classes with open contempt acceptable to the undesirables
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house
Mark will you do the same as Andy has openly stated , if the franchise is changed will you ACTIVELY work against independence
Well said confused
Another of the shining lights of the current SNP .
Makes me so glad I resigned when I did , the SNP is no longer about achieving independence.
Simple. Let’s apply a 10 year residency for a referendum. I see nothing unfair in that. If anyone tells me different. Then they they aren’t understanding demographics.
A posh student from England studying at St Andrews. Should not have a vote on my countries future. The country I have been all my life.
The working classes in Glasgow voted for independence. Because they are at the coalface of English rule. They know how bad it is. That’s why they want something better.
The English student at St Andrews gets their degree and buggers off back to London to work in the city. How can anyone think they should get a vote?
@twathater 3.47 am
He asserts that most countries will refuse to accept a restrictive franchise , he asserts that other countries will refuse to recognise Scotland if we dared to meddle with the franchise because he instinctively knows this despite providing no evidence
So why are your assertions any better or more believable than mine then? Are they better evidenced? Do they have back up in the way of polling of the relevant population? Or they just result from feelings you have in your water?
Whatever nativists confidently “assert” (for in the end that’s all it is until the events actually happen) changing the franchise from the pattern accepted carries risks. It’s certainly possible that those risks can be overcome, and that a case can be made to justify changes, particularly if they are proportionate and in line with what has been done elsewhere, or where we can point to a similar precedent.
That’s the issue though isn’t it? You and the the other regressive nativists keep coming up empty on this point. You can’t actually provide any precedents or similar situations. All you have is “Scott” making false comparisons with colonial non-governing territories, and monomaniacs like James Che assuring us we effectively do anything we please because the britnats have broken the Treaties of Union, or the treaties never really existed because 18th century Scots didn’t get to vote on them.
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house
Anyone who thinks independence will somehow solve the problem of unaffordable housing needs to give their head a shake. Being independent may allow us to start addressing such problems, and introduce policies different from those currently in operations, but the scale of the problem isn’t driven solely by non-native Scots. I know plenty of Scots with second homes.
Are you seriously “asserting” (because again, I’d lay money that’s all it is…) that it’s only English people causing the problems? If so, what’s the scale of the problem? How many are we talking about? Do you actually know…? Does anybody? How do you know whether these people are unionists or nationalists, or whether they will vote at all? The answer of course is that you know none of these things.
..will you do the same as Andy has openly stated , if the franchise is changed will you ACTIVELY work against independence
I’ll wager I wouldn’t be the only one. As I’ve said before, it’s all very well to rely on the evidence of 1 poll about how non-native Scots voted in 2014 to say that they “cost” us independence in 2014 by outweighing the native Scots Yes vote, but how can you or anyone else prove what the impact of running the 2014 referendum using a restrictive franchise would have been?
The answer of course is that you and other regressive nativists have no idea. It’s quite possible that even in the even a movement pushing such an idea had managed to win power, advocating such blood and soil ethnic nationalism would have been about as palatable as a rat sandwich, and would have decreased the Yes vote. It is also vanishingly unlikely that a S30 would have been granted for such a franchise.
@Hatuey
“a nationality requirement may apply”
“a residence requirement may be imposed”
Saying something “may” apply – presumably depending on circumstances – is one thing, that thing actually happening is a different matter. As discussed before, a couple of countries have imposed 24 month residence requirements in their self determination referendums, but the vast majority haven’t. Similarly, a few have had minimum vote thresholds (Montenegro for example had a minimum 55% vote hurdle), but I bet most nativists wouldn’t support that concept.
Maybe it’s about time we developed a register for national elections, like other countries (including the UK); Scotland is after all a nation, even if it isn’t yet a full-fledged nation-state.
There’s no reason why not. As you say, other countries do it. The Generalitat does it in Catalonia: they prepared a specific electoral register for their abortive referendum in 2017. They also allowed Catalans abroad to register, although relatively few bothered to do so. If we had a nationalist government or party worth its salt, it’s the kind of state building exercise they should be doing.
Why would Ellis or anyone else want to deprive Scotland of the right to conduct elections normally, as most other countries do, with one register for local elections and another for national elections?
I don’t. I’m the one advocating for Scotland using the same process and precedent as virtually all other cases of self determination, which have overwhelmingly used residence criteria, not ethnic, birth or “assumed nationality” criteria. It really is that simple. Nativists support a deeply regressive, anti-immigrant approach which would make Scotland’s process an outlier. The process they – and presumably you if you support them – of disenfranchising up to 20% of Scots residents to try and secure a different result from 2014 is NOT normal however much blood and soil nationalists try to sell it as such.
twathater says:
17 July, 2022 at 3:47 am
There appears to be some posters who like to refer to their fellow countrymen as schemies or lazy bastards from the scheme which highlights their commitment and belief in the civic nationalism mantra , is this civic nationalism restricted to the middle classes with open contempt acceptable to the undesirables
Unlike some who live in a wee imaginary world every bit as moronic and pathetic as the gender woo woo brigade, I don’t believe in the romanticisation of the condition and the lives of the lower orders of society by middle class wankers in their wee Guardianista fairyland where they perceive the “other half” as “noble savages”.
I’ve even less time for the ludicrous inverse snobbery where “working class” equates with “cool” and “fashionable” as some sort of salve from the hand to mouth existence all too many find themselves in. George Orwell has much to blame, with his “hope lies in the proles” bullshit. Remember they’re the ones who merrily voted in the Labour troughers, “like ma faither un his faither afore him, ‘un that.”
But it’s also part and parcel of the “know your place” culture which has been the bane of the Celtic parts of these islands for a millenia, the absurd and downright insulting notion that there’s something “honourable” and “character building” in a life of perpetual want and struggle at the bottom of the heap – the crap of Catherine Cookson potboilers voyeured over by people that have never missed a meal in their lives.
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house
You’d shit your pants at the thought of going anywhere near Easterhouse or Castlemilk, champ. Unlike you, I’ve actually worked in some of these places and so am not full of the romantic bullshit too many Scots wanting to appear broadminded have towards how low human beings can go of their own volition.
Mark will you do the same as Andy has openly stated , if the franchise is changed will you ACTIVELY work against independence
Don’t talk bollocks all your life, even if it is behind an alias.
O/T
I know this has been raised before but why are food waste from Supermarkets not used to help with the cost of living crisis?
I know it isn’t going to solve the problem but it is going to solve an immediate stop-gap with sections of society who are facing the dilemma of choosing between heating and eating now and in the near future:
link to thegrocer.co.uk
Lots of discussion around how to try and circumvent any non born Scots having a vote in any future Independence referendum. Is this really an underhand way of trying to rig the vote to suit?
I was unable to vote in 2014 as I was working out with Scotland. What are the thoughts on excluding people in similar circumstances in the next one?
The majority of Scots currently do not want Independence, despite what the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade on here think. I am certain that a lot of people falling in to this category could be persuaded to change their views but nobody seems willing to even try. Certainly not the SNP who are very comfortable with life exactly how it is.
Change can take place very quickly in Politics and people, especially Political Parties, have to be ready to make the most of opportunities as they present themselves. Can anybody realistically see Nicola and her acolytes having ANY plans prepared to do just that?
Independence is a long way off, which is maybe a blessing in disguise, as I want the SNP no where near it.
twathater says:
17 July, 2022 at 3:47 am
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house…
I think it’s more profound even than that. The whole concept of home ownership has been distorted in the UK into a grotesque Ponzi scheme, where demand for home ownership is driven to extremes because frantic demand is what pushes prices to farcical levels. That demand has been engineered to be there.
The whole UK property industry is a scam; spectacular profits for contractors, agents, Government and money lenders, but all for the barest minimum substance put into the actual property. Maximum out for minimum in. It’s the Tory way. Take from the poor and give it to me.
People are indoctrinated to see home ownership as status, and that not owning your home is a stigma. But while it can be a mark of status, the principles have mutated in the UK, seriously damaging the health and fabric of UK society.
You do not need to own a property to enjoy living there, raising your family there, and having a realistic likelihood that if your kids want to keep living there after you’re gone then they can.
But that use of property as a basic domicile shelter which everybody has a right to, comes under extraordinary pressure the moment low grade social housing becomes seen as a golden ticket to instant wealth. It’s a magic property ladder for those with a stake in it, (you must keep the repayments or else), but it’s deprivation and misery for those who don’t.
The irony is, that broadly speaking, with or without the UK’s Ponzi scheme for housing, the same people would broadly speaking still be living in the same “level” of property they currently do. All the Ponzi scheme does is see them handing over vast sums of their hard earned wages to live there.
The only way out of this vicious cycle is to start building more homes so slake demand for accommodation, drive down demand, but for goodness sake build those properties for traditional longevity so that you’re not demolishing them 50 years later.
The UK population is seen as a flock of sheep ripe to be fleeced by the UK property market. It’s a racket. An Independent Scotland could and should develop a much more robust and healthy arrangement between its people and having a place to stay and enjoy stress free as your home. NOBODY should be sleeping in the rain because they’ve nothing in their pockets.
Who profits from your mortgage? Ha ha! You think it’s you. “It’s an investment!” Oh, so you’ll eventually get back what you paid? Err… Oh, it’s an investment where you lose two thirds of the money you paid in, and own a depreciated “asset”, and if that’s a timber framed asset, I really wouldn’t be too optimistic about a resale value.
Housing is a social issue. Please Scotland, I beg you. Do not strive to make the UK’s Ponzi scheme the way the property market works in Scotland. Do not make our nation a paradise for monied parasites like Banks, “Developers” and Estate Agents all lining up for their cut. That money currently being siphoned out of our society like there’s no tomorrow should be circulating in our society, keeping our shops open, our small businesses buoyant, and our local crafts commercially viable.
There’s nothing wrong with owning property, but it badly needs defused as a get rich quick scheme.
Independence is Scotland’s big chance to reset the dials. For all our sakes, reset this one Scotland. There are better ways for people to live.
“I would be curious to know what % of English citizens now moved to Scotland and genuinely supportive of Independence, (and there are a fair number of them), but would they feel insulted or take offence at being denied a vote in a Constitutional matter”
Breeks @9.19pm.
If we use the 2014 indyref as some sort of yard stick of which 72% of folk from the rest of the UK voted no, and add in the factors that the number of folk from the rest of the UK living in Scotland appears to have increased since then, and combine that with the Westminster government rerunning project fear, which is a nail on, in my opinion I don’t see that 2014 number of 72% fluctuating all that much if another indyref materialises, and if we enfranchise those with a less than ten years active residency in Scotland, we’d be setting ourselves up to lose the next indyref.
I certainly don’t want an indyref under Sturgeon’s tenure as FM, it would be ill thought out and ill prepared, and Sturgeon will enfranchise everyone who has set foot in Scotland, her aim to be lauded as a progressive FM of a progressive nation, to her I think the result wouldn’t matter, what matters to her is how the world sees her. Sturgeon has a massive ego and craves positive attention, that’s why I think the process would be far more important to her than the result.
Meanwhile…
Wishart says the SNP MPs will never pull out of Westminster because they want to represent their voters or something. Tell me, how many laws have the SNP managed to get passed during their time in Westminster? Answers on the back of a – very small – fag packet.
link to thenational.scot
“Lots of discussion around how to try and circumvent any non born Scots having a vote in any future Independence referendum. Is this really an underhand way of trying to rig the vote to suit?”
Circumvent, underhand, rig the vote, interesting wording there, words that the no camp and project fear used along with the Britnat media to great effect in 2014. We know where you stand that’s for sure.
To other reading.
We had in 2014 from project fear, you won’t get the BBC if Scotland becomes independent, Scottish independence will lead to the Balkanisation of Western Europe, we might need to bomb Scottish runways on independence, Scotland would not be protected from attacks from outer space if it becomes independent. You can’t use the pound, after no won Alistair Campbell said of course Scotland could’ve used the pound.
You won’t get your pension if you leave the union, just a few of the “Underhand” tactics of the Westminster government in 2014. Yet if we Scots try to discuss how to set a level playing field against such a powerful media machine, a flux of incomers and a English government hostile to Scottish independence, we are somehow rigging the vote.
PacMan says:
17 July, 2022 at 9:49 am
O/T
I know this has been raised before but why are food waste from Supermarkets not used to help with the cost of living crisis?
I know it isn’t going to solve the problem but it is going to solve an immediate stop-gap with sections of society who are facing the dilemma of choosing between heating and eating now and in the near future:
It’s the joys of unfettered capitalism in action.
If all the food about to hit its sell by date was automatically given to food banks in return for some form of compensation from the government, they’d be near to bursting point in a day. This would be a good thing – for a short while.
Manufacturers however would automatically start putting up their food prices, knowing full well the supermarkets would pay it, knowing full well in turn the government would pay for the excess to be given away for free.
The foodbanks meanwhile, with more than they can cope with, would have to take on more volunteers in a hurry and not have time to do any vetting. The result is they would have people looking to steal some of that excess food (especially the long life stuff like dried pastas and tinned food) to sell on themselves on the side. Eventually those people wouldn’t be individuals spiving, but organised gangs.
The trouble with any sort of Speenhamland type of system, wherever they’re implemented, is there’s always too many greedy bastards who will seek to exploit it to line their own pockets. And as ever, it is always the poor who will pay the price.
I’m not sure Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel are the target areas of english home movers.
It’s about amenities, no public schools for theodore and poppy,no GP for mummy and daddy, for instance.
If we are independent we could apply an additional tax on foreigners, like the English buying homes here due to the housing shortages.
Like Netherlands we could also stop foreigners from buying properties with a view to renting them out.
Last Labour controlled Scottish Government built 6 homes for rent over 5 years.
At least SNP have produced 10’s thousands.
There is a wise investment in housing if ran correctly.
That is financially, mentally for the tenants and for society in general.
I have had dealings in new build social housing in the Glasgow Council schemes.
The developer get land for themselves to build and sell while building new stock for the housing associations.
I visited some of the tenants in the old homes that are to be replaced.
Some where totally wrecked.
Fits and feet through doors decades of dirt and squalor and the tenant demanding extras of the new build home or they don’t move out to facilitate the demolition of the block.
There has to be more powers for the factors to ensure the area isn’t turned into slums and
Supported basic accommodation for those who expect to have a wreck and replace mentality.
Underground source heating is a must and thermal imaging tests made before handover.
Joiners cutting each other’s throats for work take any shortcut they can so sheeting walls without putting the insulation in is more common that you think.
How could any pensioner or disabled person pay for heating bills expected to be £3,500 in January next year.
The Tories are furtively working to wipe out as many of these people as they can.
No heat, not enough food, not enough GPs or hospital appointments
Briefly their complaints will justify privatising the NHS with Tory Supporters and US corporation money to make it function better before the costs go up and up and up
until those not working like slaves can’t afford it.
A few charity hospitals will help mask the situation but for most it’s the beginning of the end for other with acute illness.
Fabulous wealth to be made for those investing and a massive reduction in welfare payments and pensions. Adolf would be so pleased to see his plans still thriving today.
“Simple. Let’s apply a 10 year residency for a referendum.”
Big Jock.
Yes I’d say that’s fair, I’d add to that it has to be an active residency, no vote for absentee landlords or second home owners who visit Scotland sporadically, no vote for students from foreign countries (including the rest of the UK) who are in Scotland to just to gain a degree. Yes a ten years residency across the board shows at least some semblance of commitment to Scotland’s future as a whole.
@Mark Boyle (9.46) –
George Orwell is ‘to blame’ for having a fictional character state that ‘hope lies in the proles’? Really? Because no one prior to Orwell had ever formulated such a thought?
Your angry comment manages to condense a heap of stereotypes that are all rooted in poverty. That some ‘poor people’ are to blame for their predicament is as obvious as it is perennial. But the majority do their best and look after one another. What is wrong with saying that ‘hope’ lies with them? What is the alternative? That we all give up?
Ian,
looking at the english conservative party slate, hope lies with the privileged.
Their hopes are not of the lumpen.
Big Jock @12.44am.
Yes good points Jock, it was also interesting to note on the Brexit vote that emigrants from the UK who went abroad could vote and it appears that, the majority of that group hung themselves up with their own petards by voting to leave.
Along with citizens from most European countries Scottish sixteen-and-seventeen years old did not get the vote either as they do in Holyrood elections, also Members of the House of Lords could vote in the EU referendum even though they are not allowed to vote in general elections.
Westminster with Brexit in mind, picked which groups of people it wanted to enfranchise and which it did not.
If its good enough for Westminster then it good enough for Holyrood to pick which groups of people it wants to enfranchise and which groups it does not want to.
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 10:39 am
@Mark Boyle (9.46) –
George Orwell is ‘to blame’ for having a fictional character state that ‘hope lies in the proles’? Really? Because no one prior to Orwell had ever formulated such a thought?
What I said was “George Orwell has much to blame”. Don’t twist my words because I’m stepping on your fetish.
Your angry comment manages to condense a heap of stereotypes that are all rooted in poverty. That some ‘poor people’ are to blame for their predicament is as obvious as it is perennial.
There’s nothing more lazy and Guardianista than to dismiss inconvenient facts as “stereotypes” – much the same crap that the genderwoowoo brigade indulges in where anyone stating scientific facts is a TERF.
But the majority do their best and look after one another.
RATFLMAO – no they damn well don’t. They rob each other blind every chance they get, lie as naturally as breathing, and see any form of “niceness” as weakness to be as ruthlessly exploited as a predator towards wounded prey. “Working class solidarity” exists only so far as “what’s in it for me”. Most people barely even know their neighbours now.
Too many of the lalaland classes still see the lower stratas of society in terms of reference that died back in the days of “Boys From The Black Stuff”. Thatcher and Blair’s mighty work has long been complete, we no longer have societies but human jungles where civilisation will only last as long as the plebes have their drugs, soaps, sports and celeb trivia to keep them distracted and factionalised.
It’s something Sturgeon long ago sussed with her targetting of all the little snowflake groups – keep ’em divided, keep ’em conquered while paradoxically promising to liberate them …
and who gets to count the votes these days?
IDOX, founded by the man with a fondness for little lists, Lilley.
I have a favour to ask of our English supporters of Yes, or indeed our Scottish supporters of Yes who have English accents…
Would you start to speak to the English newby’s come fresh to Scotland to ‘gather butterflies’ (I really like that expression), and find out,
Will they vote for Scottish Indy – Yes or No (let’s not water down the question of will they ‘support’… that leaves it wide open to changing their mind at the last minute, if its not exactly to their liking.
What was their primary motive for moving to Scotland?
House prices
Rural view – get away from Covid
Keep Scotland ‘British/English’
A desire to live in an area not so ethnically diverse
Empathy for the Scottish Constitution and a desire to promote same
What is the depth of their knowledge re Scotland’s real wealth and England’s reliance on same.
When did they move here.
If I attempt to get this info, it will be called anti-English. If an English person does it, its called a conversation.
If the results resemble something akin to Lindsay Hoyle and the English MP’s behaviour in Westminster the other day, if I disclose that result, I’ll be called anti-English, if English supporters of Yes do so, it will have real validity.
And lastly, for all villagers, can you get a rough idea of how many English economic migrants/ex pats have moved into your area since 2014. The most recent Census did not tackle this question in any real way and will not provide us with answers.
If the data shows us that for every 1 English supporter willing to vote Yes, we get 2 who will vote No – I’m calling that out as the worst Buy One Get One Free deal ever, and then I’m going to ask our English for Yes Voters to lead the way in campaigning to Not be Allowed to vote in Scotland’s Constitutional issue for Independence.
The word British is used time and time again to hide England’s duplicity… but it is not the Welsh who asset strip my country, nor the people of Northern Ireland. The word ‘British’ gets used like a threadbare union jack coloured fig leaf.
One country, and it’s people, profiteer, over and over and over again from the rape of my country, and for over 300 years we have been arguing the case, over and over again, regarding the injustice of this, in Westminster, in the House of Lords, in workplaces and pubs the length and breadth. It made not one whit of difference. Most Englanders didn’t care and still don’t.
To be told now, when Scotland is at its most vulnerable, due to that country and its voters actions!!! That I just need to work harder to persuade them of the value of Indy, that a magical move from England to Scotland for a house twice the size and half the price will have somehow opened their minds and made them far more amenable to the arguments, is the biggest load of BOLLOCKS.
After 3 terms of Maggie, Boris and Brexit… I’m calling it out… it is not a bug, it is a feature.
And one more thing, England is on the edge of becoming a Facsist state – Heseltine, Chris Patton, and others have warned of this…
With the damage they have done to the economy, and their absolute need for Scotland’s energy… it will not be Puttin rolling up at the border with tanks… it will be the ‘British’ Army.
The reason why votes on Constitutional issues are different from other normal elections, is because, if the worst comes to the worst, it really can come down to the question of ‘would you staff the barricades’.
But I’ll leave you with this, given that this is such a serious issue, the elephant in the room if you like, how dare anyone suggest that we should not have an open and frank, respectful debate about it, just in case it offends. That is just as manipulative and loaded an argument to stifle discussion on this as it is within the GRA/Self ID brigade. An extension of the ‘shut up and be kind’ tactics.
@Mark Boyle (11.12) –
More anger and insults and doom-laden ranting.
Fair enough Mark. Your contempt for ‘ordinary’ folk is noted. But don’t assume we all share your fear and weakness. There’s always ‘hope’, even if there are always naysayers like you around.
Mark,
are youe brains behind priti patel?
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 11:18 am
@Mark Boyle (11.12) –
More anger and insults and doom-laden ranting.
Fair enough Mark. Your contempt for ‘ordinary’ folk is noted. But don’t assume we all share your fear and weakness. There’s always ‘hope’, even if there are always naysayers like you around.
Yeah, until the next election comes around, and those “salt of the earth” ‘ordinary folk’ you so fetish vote right back in all those you hate yet again, and you’ll be on here as ever screaming the walls down at those “thick fkers!” 😀
Paul@11.15am.
Indeed Idox is not to be trusted especially in the PVMS which is open to abuse, an example.
“On 11 December 2019, the BBC’s Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg appeared to have broken Electoral Law by revealing on the BBC’s Politics Live programme confidential information about how Postal Voters had cast their vote prior to 10pm on polling day in the UK/2019 General Election”
As for Tory Peter Lilley he was used by MI5 and MI6 via the DTI in investigations of Gerald James and his “Arms to Iraq” revelations.
This is what the Scottish government thinks of Idox being involved in Scottish elections.
“The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process.”
@Mark Boyle –
It’s one thing to be cynical and fed-up. That’s understandable and natural.
But you take it too far with the anger and insults. You’re not doing yourself any favours by projecting your frustration on others and certainly not advancing any ‘debate’.
“The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process
Who chooses the counting officers?
@ paul
Those vote counters are machines now thanks to E Counting…
link to archive.ph
“4. Specific rules applicable to referendums held at the request of a section of the electorate and to popular initiatives (where they are provided for in the Constitution)
a. Everyone enjoying political rights is entitled to sign a popular initiative or request for a referendum.
b. The time-limit for collecting signatures (particularly the day on which the time-limit starts to run and the last day of the time-limit) must be clearly specified, as well as the number of signatures to be collected.
c. Everyone (regardless of whether he or she enjoys political rights) must be entitled to collect signatures.
d. If authorisation is required in order to gather signatures for popular initiatives or requests for a referendum on public thoroughfares, such authorisation may be refused only in specific cases provided for by law, on the basis of overriding public interest and in accordance with the principle of equality.
e. Payment from private sources for the collection of signatures for popular initiatives and requests for referendums should, as a rule, be prohibited. If permitted, it must be regulated, with regard to both the total amount allocated and the amount paid to each person.
f. All signatures must be checked. In order to facilitate checking, lists of signatures should preferably contain the names of electors registered in the same municipality.
g. In order to avoid having to declare a vote totally invalid, an authority must have the power, prior to the vote, to correct faulty drafting, for example:
i. when the question is obscure, misleading or suggestive;
ii. when rules on procedural or substantive validity have been violated; in this event, partial invalidity may be declared if the remaining text is coherent; sub-division may be envisaged to correct a lack of substantive unity.
” – Code of Good Practice on Referendums
link to venice.coe.int
I nominate Andy Ellis as Signature-Gatherer General.
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 11:34 am
@Mark Boyle –
It’s one thing to be cynical and fed-up. That’s understandable and natural.
But you take it too far with the anger and insults. You’re not doing yourself any favours by projecting your frustration on others and certainly not advancing any ‘debate’.
I don’t take it too far – I take you out of your comfort zone. There’s a difference.
Scots being taken out of their comfort zone – cultural, economic, politicial, social – is something long overdue if anything is to be achieved within it. The only ones who balk at the idea are those who like things as they are, thank you very much, or who simply want to replace them and enjoy the said trappings of the status quo for themselves by and large.
Ain’t it ironic that here we all are, on a thread about people calling Rev.Stu all sorts of nasty names for telling them things they don’t want to hear, giving him our solidarity … only to find others doing exactly the same things towards others saying things they don’t want to hear!
Aye, wha’s lik’ us indeed! 😀
@Mark Boyle (12.15) –
Every one of us is going to be removed from the ‘comfort zone’ we’re now in. Every indicator is telling us that the coming winter will be fuckin grim.
As and when we have to start organising soup kitchens/home deliveries to ensure that our infirm and elderly don’t die alone, of cold and/or starvation, that’s when we’ll find out how much ‘hope’ there is.
It’s odd that self-described independence supporters seem to think that boorish, abusive, Hoyleish behaviour advances the cause.
Go for it rev, happy to contribute.
“Simple. Let’s apply a 10 year residency for a referendum.”
Big Jock.
Yes I’d say that’s fair, I’d add to that it has to be an active residency, no vote for absentee landlords or second home owners who visit Scotland sporadically, no vote for students from foreign countries (including the rest of the UK) who are in Scotland to just to gain a degree. Yes a ten years residency across the board shows at least some semblance of commitment to Scotland’s future as a whole.
Except no other country has imposed such a criteria. The Venice Commission Code of Good Practice on Referendums (2018, page 16)…(you know, the one you someone said was full of experts, so would be hard to argue with, beloved of our very own “Scott”, who thinks only the Scots born should be allowed to vote, and who likes to selectively quote from it):
“1.1. Rule and exceptions
6. The conditions for according the right to vote are normally the same for both
referendums and elections. In particular, a period of residence requirement may be imposed on nationals solely for local and regional referendums, and should not exceed six months other than in exceptional circumstances (point I.1.1.c.iii-iv).
7. It is desirable that the right to vote be accorded to citizens residing abroad, at least for national referendums. It is important to ensure that this does not lead to fraud, however. Accordingly, it is preferable not to record such people on the same register as residents, but to allow them to vote abroad or from abroad; in addition, this will help ensure that they exercise their right to vote, which is unlikely if they have to return to their home country for the solepurpose of voting (point I.1.1.c.v).”
link to venice.coe.int
So remind us all you regressive nativists…which other countries have imposed 10 year residence criteria for self determination referendums, and which haven’t…? (N.B: Gibraltar and New Caledonia are colonial Non Self Governing Territories, recognised as such by the UN….don’t even think about trying to use them as examples, OK?)
I have to wonder what ordinary voters would think if they came here and saw those who identified as Scottish or working class being trashed and traduced like this.
The bravery of some Scots is never in doubt when they are attacking each other, or themselves…
But I’ll leave you with this, given that this is such a serious issue, the elephant in the room if you like, how dare anyone suggest that we should not have an open and frank, respectful debate about it, just in case it offends. That is just as manipulative and loaded an argument to stifle discussion on this as it is within the GRA/Self ID brigade. An extension of the ‘shut up and be kind’ tactics.
Who is saying that exactly? I agree it’s a serious issue. I think those advocating the more extreme end of the disenfranchisement narrative are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut however, and that the cure being proposed is in many respects worse than the disease. When this debate first became prominent, Stu Campbell in his twitter fisking of the nativist narrative said:
And stop whining that by saying this I’m trying to “shut down debate”. I have no power and no desire to stop you debating it. You can debate it all you want. I’m not reporting you to Twitter or the police. I’m just not interested.
We debated this in 2011 and we came to the right decision. Nothing has happened that justifies abandoning that principle in my view. You can’t just disenfranchise people because you think they’ll vote the wrong way.
Those words still apply. Nobody is saying that nativists aren’t entitled to make their case and to campaign for the movement to adopt their franchise restriction policy, whether that involves disenfranchising everyone not born here, or “only” those deemed not Scottish enough because they haven’t been here for 20, or 15 or 10 years [delete as appropriate depending on “die hard nativist level”].
We’re entitled to say we think the proposed policy is both morally wrong and politically self defeating. We’re entitled to call those advocating for such a change “nativists” because it is an entirely accurate description. I don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if nativists think it’s abusive, any more than I care if unionists think the term “yoon” is abusive of derogatory.
We’re entitled to believe and say that their proposed policy is regressive, and represents the negation of civic nationalism and is in fact tainted with the brush of blood and soil nationalism. We’re entitled to say we don’t think we’re on the same side as people who promote such an awful policy.
You and others are entitled to argue that’s wrong. Nobody is stopping you.
Anyone who has followed this debate won’t be under any illusions that the nativists posting in here are interested or engaged in “open and frank, respectful debate about it”. Those arguing against the nativist claque in here are routinely described as not “real” independence supporters, closet unionists or worse. Those fluffing for the worst abusers rarely if ever call them out for it either.
1. “and should not exceed six months other than in exceptional circumstances (point I.1.1.c.iii-iv)
2. It is desirable that the right to vote be accorded to citizens residing abroad, at least for national referendums.” – Ellis
—-
1. Exceptional circumstances, dear boy, etc.
If a nation seeking permission among its people to terminate a treaty binding it to another in perpetuity isn’t an exceptional circumstance, what is?
2. But, the ‘international commyoonity’ don’t recognise Scotland as a nation yet, so ‘national referendum’ would apply to one that is UK-wide, no?
Code of Good Practice on Referendums doesn’t bind certain referendums to specific rules.
Our referendum, our franchise.
It’s really that simple.
As for Gibraltar, the referendum in 2002 wasn’t on independence. It was about ceding some sovereignty to Spain, a position supported by UK Govt (on behalf of the Queen) if the people voted that way.
So we very much can compare that franchise, and the “not less than 10 years” clause sanctioned by our shared monarch.
Norway,listed as the most democratic country in the entire world ever,
`In parliamentary elections it is only Norwegian citizens who have the right to vote.
To apply for Norway citizenship, you must have lived in Norway for at least seven out of the last ten years`.
Bloody democratic nativist vikings.
Hey Andy, rather than beat the same old drum, is there any chance you could address the point I’ve made in several previous responses to you about voting rights.
Basically it is that a fuller inclusive franchise which allows any johnny come latelys or temporary residents to vote in Scotland’s future creates far more opportunities for the result to be influenced a certain way due to the imbalance in campaigning reach caused by the power of broadcasting, MSM, social media algorithms, etc all being biased in favour of the status quo and union?
One time you came back briefly with “how did YES support increase from 20 to 45% between 2012 – 14” then, but that really doesn’t answer the question or acknowledge that YES may have increased to a bigger more significant figure if it hadn’t been up against very powerful folk wanting to retain control of Scotland.
We all know what Big Data with the likes of Cambridge Analytica and Integrity Initiative get up to. They are not spaffing all that cash for nothing.
Where is the “international community” in recognising, calling out, and stopping this significant ongoing interference in the many people’s of this planet’s “democracy”.
This is a debate that is sorely needed to be spoken about,
Opinions of the Scots as residence of Scotland under the Scottish constitution should be of paramount importance.
As said above those that come to live here seem to want their cake and eat it, to live here but by their own or another countries rules, How is that a fair scenario by any ones standards?
I was not born here, but I willing waiver my right to vote in a scottish only question.
For above all I want Scots to have an independent country above all else free from possible sabotarge of interference from outside Scotland,
It occurs to me their is a selfishness of self interest running through the veins of those wishing to band wagon themselves onto a Scots only question.
Taking the huff about not getting to play in the game for five minutes is beyond reasoning, no one in Scotland is threatening you or I that you can not become a resident citizen after the vote, nor that you would be chucked out on your ear,
This stamping of feet in a tantrum because you missed five minutes out of Scottish history as a relative newcomer to Scotland is infantile and reeks of a spoilt child.
No matter how outsiders may view this question.
Remember you are an outsider in another mans country AND WILL ALWAYS BE CONSIDERED AN OUTSIDER as long as you try to gain control over the Scots, the Scottish vote and manipulate the Scottish voting franchise, their country , their politics, and control over their very lives for you to place your own selfish wants and needs first above theirs.
If you want to fit in and become a Scot as would anywhere else, less bullying and a little respect for the people and country you want to become part of.
Otherwise you could move to any country that excepts being dominated over by colonialism attitudes.
Penny drops her answer in remarkably quickly and to the point for a politician.
link to twitter.com
But what will Ruth make of it…
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@Hatuey (12:47pm):
‘I have to wonder what ordinary voters would think if they came here and saw those who identified as Scottish or working class being trashed and traduced like this’.
Good point. But also the majority of views on here tbh. Mark Boyle is out of order with his classism but he is right regarding the broader discussion about the franchise when he said (9:49pm):
‘It smacks alarmingly of the stuff the full fat nazi version of the National Front in the 1970s used to come away with demanding all New Commonwealth citizens removed from the electoral register’
I am an east Londoner of the right age so remember the NF all too well and the similarities are stark (though ‘Nazism’ takes it too far). And it all starts with apparent reasonable demands about ‘foreigners’ and their ‘naturally’ negative influence simply because of who they are, all underpinned by so-called intellectual argument. But Alf Baird’s colonial schtick is the equivalent of David Tyndall’s influence in the NF and like Tyndall, it is intellectually dishonest, warped and deeply pernicious.
My overall impression is many folk commenting here want the English in Scotland to have no vote in an independence referendum and some want them out of Scotland / never to come in the first place (that is, perhaps, unless they are the type of English person approved of and has the correct ‘sanctioned’ views). Baird has stated clearly that all English living in Scotland are colonial invaders / occupiers. Think about what that really means, what it does to the mind to start thinking like that. That is the kind of mindset you should be really worrying about.
As an English person reading this thread, I can tell you it is dripping with ignorant prejudice even if you don’t see it / deny it. Are you comfortable with that impression?
As for what voters would think? I’d like to think that they would say ‘if this is the current tenor of Scottish nationalism, then count me out’.
Brotherhood: “Every indicator is telling us that the coming winter will be fuckin grim.”
When people need to spend more of their income on necessities like food and fuel, they soon start to spend less on non-essentials.
That’s explained as a sort of tipping point in economic theory but it’s really a starting point; and you’ll know the recession has properly started when unemployment starts rising as a consequence, which it will and soon (despite the current Brexit-rooted labour shortages).
Scotland is in a really odd position; it produces more of almost everything than it needs, food, oil, electricity, fish, timber, you name it. Moreover, if the economy was geared towards economic development rather than wealth extraction, production could probably be increased across the board in most industries.
In a normal independent country these things would give us a very positive balance of trade and, through a combination of tax adjustments, price management, other interventions, and nationalisation (if necessary), it would be easy to ensure that the people and the economy were protected.
It’s actually very easy to imagine a situation where Scotland benefitted massively and flourished economically in the peculiar economic situation we are in and heading further into, with oil and energy prices expected to rise massively in the autumn.
Why would anyone choose to be tied to post-Brexit Britain in these circumstances? There’s just no future in Britain that doesn’t involve economic hardship and misery for most Scottish people.
Joining EFTA would guarantee Scotland’s access to both the EU and what remains of the UK, and it would be a cinch. Scotland would be a highly valued EFTA member and we’d have a lot of influence within due to the relative strength of our economy and resources.
Southernbystander, I get it; you are speaking from a position of principle. And your feelings on what Scottish nationalism might become one day are respectfully noted.
Now, when can we expect your lengthy comment condemning English nationalism which isn’t just theoretically or potentially nasty like Scottish nationalism?
It may have escaped your notice, perhaps the flags and foam obscured your vision, but England (not Britain) has gone full tonto with its nasty nationalism in recent years.
Ach, you’ve jist got to love someone from England dropping in and telling us Scots that oor voting franchises and voting systems aren’t civic or democratic enough…
“1. I am an east Londoner of the right age so remember the NF all too well
2. My overall impression is many folk commenting here want the English in Scotland to have no vote in an independence referendum and some want them out of Scotland / never to come in the first place” – Southernbystander
—
1. I lived & worked among ‘east Londoners exiled in Essex’ during the final years of the John Major Govt.
Not everyone voted Tory in Basildon, and it isn’t just cockney West Ham fans that aren’t mad keen on the Scots, the French or any nationality other than English, but are culturally quite happy to square go each other based on England’s local & regional boundaries every other Saturday.
2. Your impressions are rubbish, got any jokes?
Ellis @12.43pm.
The European Commission for Democracy through Law (the Venice Commission) is the Council of Europe advisory body on constitutional matters.
Note the word ADVISORY.
The UK is the member state of the Venice Commission, I’d imagine an independent Scotland would need to apply for membership post independence.
Confused.
Your comments and analysis are accurate and on point,
I may not have be born here and that perhaps is benifical in other ways as Moved around a bit.
I spent a number of years in Wales at the time that Wales was going through the same problems that Scots are now having to contend with, so parallel in the border over flow seepage that Scotland and Wale become slowly colonised by their neighbours.
Over crowded with little resources it makes a few miles move very appealing especially when they can get more for their buck, out pricing locals in the housing market,
Scots are fast becoming like other indigenous people on small corner reservation in their own in their own country.
England is not Britain.although the wealthy think it is an extension playground or cheap weekend holiday getaway.
If this is how civic nationalism works, it is not for me.
Ron Maclean says:
17 July, 2022 at 12:24 pm
It’s odd that self-described independence supporters seem to think that boorish, abusive, Hoyleish behaviour advances the cause.
As was pointed out by Al Stuart last year, “Ron Maclean” is really one of the sock puppets of Rob Brown of the Jaggy Blog, so treat “Ron”‘s post with the irony it deserves.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
He’s the same one who tried to take over the Alba Party, was told, “er, no!” and has been throwing sour grapes ever since.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
He comes back here every so often to stir the pot, fails, and slinks off for another few weeks on one of his famtasy holidays around the world.
“Joining EFTA would guarantee Scotland’s access to both the EU and what remains of the UK, and it would be a cinch. Scotland would be a highly valued EFTA member and we’d have a lot of influence within due to the relative strength of our economy and resources.”
Hatuey.
Yes EFTA makes sense both Alex Salmond and Craig Murray have floated that idea as well, recent witch hunts with a particular group of people in mind has really opened my eyes to the darker side of Europe.
Republicofscotland says:
17 July, 2022 at 2:43 pm
The European Commission for Democracy through Law (the Venice Commission) is the Council of Europe advisory body on constitutional matters.
Note the word ADVISORY.
The UK is the member state of the Venice Commission, I’d imagine an independent Scotland would need to apply for membership post independence.
—
There’s nothing in the Treaty of Union between England & Scotland that prevents Scotland claiming the continuation of treaties agreed by UK, per the terms of the Vienna Convention on the Succession of States in Respect of Treaties.
link to treaties.un.org
Scotland & Scots law is already a party to all treaties via our membership of UK, a club we can leave while retaining certain rights relating to membership of other clubs.
NATO membership can continue;
EU membership could’ve continued;
UN Security Council seat can be ‘claimed’;
etc
@ James Che says…. at 2.09pm
Well said.
On a personal note, I would be happy for any English person who has lived in Scotland (not via a holiday home) and paid their taxes here, for 10 years or more to get the vote, I believe that to be fair.
With regards accusations of racism… I had and have, no issue with residents originally from other countries getting to vote…. as it is not their governments imposed upon Scotland against our democratic wishes, and it is not their political choices over Brexit currently destroying our economy, and it is not their governments asset stripping Scotland at a rate of knots – that credit lies solely with England and the English.
But I would like to point out one thing. So far the onus is on the Scots firstly being allowed to voice concerns about the English newbies voting on the issue of Scottish Independence, and secondly on the Scot’s being the ones put on the back foot having to make all the arguements regarding why there are concerns and why they should not.
Think about that for a second.
An English sense of entitlement and a Scottish Cringe made large.
Let’s change that. If you are English, living in Scotland, explain why you feel entitled to – what could be a decisive – vote on the issue of Scottish Self Determination from England. And how does that differ from the current London Political leaders telling us we can’t.
And please note, the answer – because I support Yes – is of no use to us, if by enabling you to vote, we have to enable 2 English No voters the same voting rights.
@Mark Boyle 3:02
Anybody can accuse anybody on here of being somebody else if they want to look really stupid. Should be easy for you.
link to twitter.com
I’m amazed that Diane in Lithgae has been left to soldier on with this all by herself.
The competence and potency of Holyrood is about to be tested in the UK’s Supreme Court, and Hansard, the official record of Westminster Parliamentary debates has been caught red handed doctoring the minutes of a Parliamentary debate, by removing references to Scotland’s Claim of Right and Constitutional Sovereignty.
This seems grossly inappropriate, and highly improper at the very highest possible level.
Why hasn’t this been picked up by Scotland’s MP’s, and an immediate inquiry begun to establish how this happened, why this happened, and how many times it’s happened before.
Surely this might even be a potentially a criminal offence under False or Misleading Information Legislation. It’s not as if we’re short of Lawyers down there.
link to assets.publishing.service.gov.uk
Wakey! Wakey! SNP! Or does the Scottish public have to do everything for themselves?
Well done you, Diane in Lithgae, for being on the ball and catching them red handed.
But come on MP’s. Get off your backsides.
Not sure that’s the right lead I linked to back there… That seems to be confined to Health Bodies publishing false or misleading information, but surely similar principles would apply..
“There’s nothing in the Treaty of Union between England & Scotland that prevents Scotland claiming the continuation of treaties agreed by UK, per the terms of the Vienna Convention on the Succession of States in Respect of Treaties.”
If true, I’d image post independence these treaties would need to agreed upon if applicable, pre-independence the Venice Commission is an IGO it doesn’t make laws only treaties, and its an advisory body only.
How Scotland sets out its rules and regulations on who can and cannot vote in an indyref, when we have one of the most nefarious governments next door with a big interest in it should be down to us.
I just hope Sturgeon isn’t FM when it happens.
God luv a duck , wouldya Adam n Eve it , me ol china plate Southern Bartender droppin in to put words in the Sweaties’ maffs ; ‘ow they ‘ate St George’s Finest , wanna send ’em back ‘ome n comparin’ ’em to the National Front .
You’re ‘avin a laff ain’cha SB ? The heat dan Saff makin’ ya hallucinate mate ?
Fing is me ol mucker , maybe the Sweaties just fink wot ‘appens in Sweatyland oughtta be summink for ’em to decide themselves , ya know , like ‘ow Engerland decided by itself to get the ‘ell outta the EU n didn’t seem to bovva’d wot the Sweaties voted for . funny that innit ?
@ Scott at 3:05pm
Re. “EU membership could’ve continued”
Aye, which shows that Better Together tweet I posted up thread for the shite it was.
link to twitter.com
Jist lucky we had those shining knights from yon “international community” and ra BBC coming to oor aid to counter that load of Project Fear bullshit and tell folks about Article 48…
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Dan @3.36pm.
Ex-Welsh FM Carwyn Jones pointed out in a speech (post Brexit) that Brexit cut across the Scottish peoples sovereignty, but that was for the Scottish government to take issue with, unsurprisingly Sturgeon the betrayer and her spineless and gutless SNP MSPs and MPs did absolutely nothing about it.
Infact she tried to save England from itself instead of saving Scotland from this rancid union. The betrayer must never be allowed to hold an indyref, we need her booted out of Bute House, even the nasty Tories know when to ditch a maniacal leader, yet the SNP MSPs and MPs keep their mouths shut and their snouts in the taxpayers trough as Scotland circles the plughole, I’d sack every last one of them but not before I gave them a right bollocking if I were in charge, useless b*stards.
Southernbystander says:
17 July, 2022 at 2:10 pm
I am an east Londoner of the right age so remember the NF all too well and the similarities are stark (though ‘Nazism’ takes it too far). And it all starts with apparent reasonable demands about ‘foreigners’ and their ‘naturally’ negative influence simply because of who they are, all underpinned by so-called intellectual argument. But Alf Baird’s colonial schtick is the equivalent of David Tyndall’s influence in the NF and like Tyndall, it is intellectually dishonest, warped and deeply pernicious.
Think you mean John Tyndall rather than David Tyndall, who really was one of the nastiest individuals this island has ever produced. When his deputy Richard Edmonds finally left this mortal coil last year, I breathed a sigh of relief – with him and Eddy Morrison gone too, that’s the end of those who in the words of A.K. Chesterton “wanted to relive the Nazi daydream.”
You are right however, to a degree, in saying “Nazism” takes it too far if talking about the NF as a whole, which went through a bewildering array of mutations and factions (although the Green Party is doing its best to catch up!) and attracted all sorts, usually disgrunted Tories who thought the party had gone soft or Labour voters who thought the party had sold out.
One of the NF, an ex-Communist Party of Great Britain luminary called Mike Lobb, organised a free housing advice service in Newham. Of course, no one was fooled as to the subtext to it (ie. black immigrants jumping the housing queue), but it scored one direct hit in the local news when Lobb highlighted the horrifying case of a young black girl with a baby shoved into cockroach ridden “accommodation” not fit for zombies to live in – and the hitherto couldn’t care less council was shamed into rehousing her at once.
It was a moment that ought to have started a nationwide grown-up discussion on one of the elephants in the room since Windrush – immigrants knowing no better or having no choice being used as “human stuffing” into dilapidated social housing stock unfit for human habitation in return for central government money, literally councils (usually Labour) being “slum landlords”.
But the national press didn’t want to know (more interested in celeb gossip and the Yorkshire Ripper), and the Tyndall dominated NF castigated Lobb for helping a “black immigrant”; and Lobb left only a fortnight after coming within 150 votes of second in the Newham South parliamentary by-election on the back of the local furore he’d created.
How far have things changed since those dark times?
Very little judging by this news report (warning, strong stomach required).
“Single mum in Lewisham home says children ‘don’t want to sleep’ due to ‘worst’ cockroach infestation where 1,000 are trapped a week”
link to mylondon.news
Where the fk are the “Black Lives Matter” protesting about this outrage?
Just saw this on Twitter:
Hmm…interesting.
Here’s the full text –
link to ohchr.org
@Scot Finlayson
Norway,listed as the most democratic country in the entire world ever,
`In parliamentary elections it is only Norwegian citizens who have the right to vote.
To apply for Norway citizenship, you must have lived in Norway for at least seven out of the last ten years`.
Bloody democratic nativist vikings. \
You’re making the same mistake, and will get the same answer. The franchise in already independent countries to allow voting rights or to attain citizenship is NOT THE SAME THING as the franchise used in self determination referendums. When Scotland is an independent country, it will be able – just like all other independent countries – to decide and enforce rules relating to who qualifies as a citizen, and what residence period might be required.
Self determination referendums however are – in the overwhelming majority of cases – decided on by asking the question of ALL RESIDENTS, not by excluding those not born in the polity seeking independence, or by seeking to exclude certain groups or ethnicities you think might vote the wrong way.
Facts, eh?
‘Facts, eh?’
Clutching at straws, eh?
Basically it is that a fuller inclusive franchise which allows any johnny come latelys or temporary residents to vote in Scotland’s future creates far more opportunities for the result to be influenced a certain way due to the imbalance in campaigning reach caused by the power of broadcasting, MSM, social media algorithms, etc all being biased in favour of the status quo and union?
I’m not under any obligation to dance to your tune or argue what passes for argument on your part Dan. I don’t recall seeing the point you insist you’ve made before, but I don’t find it particularly persuasive.
As you say yourself, it looks like I already answered it anyway, you just didn’t like (or more likely didn’t understand) the response. If the MSM and these sinister algorithms are so pervasive and all powerful, how the hell DID we manage to increase support for independence from the high 20’s % to 45 % in only 2 years between 2012-14?
More to the point, what is stopping us adding the 6% extra we need given the golden opportunities the movement has had in the past 7 or 8 years? Has the MSM dominance been worse? Are the algorithms somehow smarter or more developed? Or isn’t it more likely that the SNP are a bit shit, and that our arguments haven’t persuaded enough folk to change their minds?
I know which one I think is more likely, but then I’m not a congenital idiot or a conspiracy addled fringe nutter either.
Happy to help!
Long time lurker (and independence supporter) I’ve never posted, just like to read various views.
But one thing bugs me that I’d be curious to see the answer to. All those that propose residency requirements for being able to vote in any referendum: how to you propose to work/ enforce that? If, say, your requirement was Scottish residency of 10 years, would you require anyone registering to vote to provide Scottish residency from 10 years ago? Easier said than done and is (in my opinion) going to disenfranchise a lot more people than just the specific demographic you’re aiming at. (And, let’s be honest, a large section of the electorate that we require for a successful Yes vote are exactly the kind of folk it’s hard enough to get to register and vote at the best of times, never mind without asking them to prove residency from 10 years ago).
On a personal note, I would be happy for any English person who has lived in Scotland (not via a holiday home) and paid their taxes here, for 10 years or more to get the vote, I believe that to be fair.
You may believe it, but it simply isn’t true. Here’s a list of other self determination referendums and the residence criteria they imposed Daisy:
Of the 14 self determination referendums discussed here:
link to venice.coe.int
Not a single one had a 10 year residence criteria for voting. Why do you think that is Daisy, and what justifies Scotland – alone out of all these analogous examples – imposing such a long period of residence?
– Quebec (1980 & 1995) enfranchised all Canadian citizens resident in Quebec;
– Slovenia (1990) enfranchised all Slovenian citizens including those Yugoslav citizens with internal ID cards who were born in other Yugoslav republics;
– Lithuania (1991) enfranchised all people who held Lithuanian nationality in 1940 and their descendants, and Soviet citizens to agreed to renounce their Soviet citizenship between 1989 & 1991. Soviet military personnel stationed in Lithuania were specifically excluded.
– Estonia (1991) – Individuals with a permanent Soviet residence card in Estonia (i.e. including all former non-ethnically Estonian Soviet citizens).
– Latvia (1991) – Individuals with a permanent Soviet residence card in Latvia.
– Macedonia (1991) enfranchised on the same basis as Slovenia and allowed its citizens abroad to participate.
– “The country that shall no be named” (1991) – Residents in the country. The Electorate also included Soviet soldiers stationed in the country.
– Bosnia & Hercegovina (1992) – Yugoslavian citizens with permanent residency.
– Timor L’Este (1999) – Those born in the country, with a parent born in the country, or whose spouse or in-laws were born in the country.
– Montenegro (2006) – Individuals with 24 months minimum residency, and all those with Serb-Montenegrin nationality.
– South Sudan (2011) – All permanent residents of South Sudan or those whose parents or grandparents were permanent residents since 1956.
– Scotland (2014) – Residents in Scotland with British, EU or Commonwealth nationality.
– Catalonia (2014) – Residents in Catalonia with Spanish nationality, EU nationality, EEA nationality or Swiss nationality.
And please note, the answer – because I support Yes – is of no use to us, if by enabling you to vote, we have to enable 2 English No voters the same voting rights.
You don’t speak for “us” though, do you Daisy? You speak for a sub-set of us who hold regressive, nativist, anti-immigrant views. We don’t know how widespread such views are in the movement as a whole. They appear to have some traction in here, but that doesn’t mean they are widely shared, particularly not amongst those in positions to do anything about it.
Civic nationalism still rules the roost, and the arguments put forward by those advocating for franchise restrictions – such as they are – seem pretty unconvincing so far. Many of us find them morally repellent and politically counter productive of course, which we’re entitled to do. More to the point, regressive populist nationalism appears to have very little support amongst any of the pro-independence parties, or amongst any significant political figures or organisations in the movement.
It’s not surprising that the nativist who posted earlier that Alex Salmond seemed much more interested in increasing turnout than restricting the franchise to pure bloods. Alex is a wise man. He knows blood and soil nationalism would be electorally poisonous, and probably counter productive. Increasing the turnout from 85% to 90% or above, and persuading more former No voters is the way to win independence, not taking the vote away from cadres of people because we think we can open windows in to their souls.
“what is stopping us adding the 6% extra” – Ellis
We don’t actually need more people to vote YES, a really important bit is that less vote NO. If we can reduce that number, the likelihood of success increases.
NO to abstain is just as valid as No to YES.
@ Andy Ellis
Dear Andy, I always scroll past your posts. Kind regards. DW.
@ Andy
Of course you’re not obligated to “dance to my tune” if that’s how you want to frame simply trying to having a discussion.
But jeezo, you type and post the same old simplistic “natavist bad” shit so regularly I would have thought an “intellect” such as you try to come across as might just have wanted to stimulate your mind by applying some thought and typing a different range of words for once…
I say “intellect” there, but I may just be posting crap with that assessment, because if you can’t or won’t consider and comprehend the relevance of the limits of competing power flowing against each side to influence the outcome of a campaign then you ain’t really much of a tactician.
You talk about the swing from No to Yes in the two year run up to the IndyRef, but omit to include the last week swing back from YES to No when the side that holds the higher potential power to influence events decided to turn up the wick.
In the best traditions of the colonialist, Andy Ellis contests claimed blood and soil nativism with abuse, rudeness, bluster and blood and soil anti-nativism.
Stop stamping your feet and throwing tantrums at not perhaps getting to vote in five minutes of Scottish history.
It just five minutes,
And as you said yourself, Andy, and the now nearly Ex prime minster of Britain,, the Russians plant people and the last Scottish referendum was interfered with by them, if either of you two, are telling the Scots the truth an no lies about russian interference, then it makes sense for the Scottish voting franchise for independence is necessarily based on residency criteria for a certain amount of time.
You can not claim possibility of interference, Russia, china, india or what ever country then want anyone to have free entry to a Scottish vote franchise.
@”Scott” 1.20 pm
1. Exceptional circumstances, dear boy, etc.
Except the circumstances just aren’t that exceptional. Kosovo perhaps was excpetional. Expecting >50% of people to put an “X” in a box…? Not so much. People everywhere else in the world just think we should grow a pair.
2. But, the ‘international commyoonity’ don’t recognise Scotland as a nation yet, so ‘national referendum’ would apply to one that is UK-wide, no?
Code of Good Practice on Referendums doesn’t bind certain referendums to specific rules.
Our referendum, our franchise.
It’s really that simple.
Well no, it isn’t that simple. The code of practice is advisory. Much like most of international law it has nothing to back it up other than the willingness of international actors to agree to be bound by it or not. Scotland could take the high ground position of “our referendum, our choice” and disenfranchise 20% of Scots on the basis that only those born here should get a vote.
The international community could also respond by saying that Scotland’s route to independence was so left of field, and so out of keeping with historical and constitutional norms and precedents that they weren’t going to accept it.
There you go: Scott’s Scotland: the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus without the sun. I wonder who would recognise the new Scottish state…? Perhaps Vlad and his nice bunch of lads…?
Don’t be lulled into feeling ashamed of being a nativist in your own country in exchange,
for civic nativist,
The first is natural, the second is political.
Soon they will be plying you with booze, drugs and gambling so they can put you in a corner of your own country which they will call a reservation,
they do this to all natives whom try protecting their families, their homes, their culture, their land,
Actually they have already turned large parts of Scotland into nature parks and have started killing the local wild life. Just like they did American buffalo.
What is the difference between national trust ranger parks and reservations,?
Very little,
Locals have to pay to get onto the land and are restricted in movement and by laws on land that once belonged to them,
Then they made us pay for the water that fell out the sky,
The wealth that came out the ground,
Now they are suggesting taxing humans for the air that god provided.
Scotland first and foremost… belongs to the Scots. Their country, their choice.
Scots residency votes only.
@Dan
I’ve long given up on you being open to arguing in good faith I’m afraid, much like many of the other nativist fringe in here. Evidence Daisy upthread. If ever there was someone in need of some education it’s someone like her, but she lacks the intellectual height to get on this ride. Stun us wi’ another.
What’s the point in using different words to try and persuade dyed in the wool nativists? They’ve shown beyond a shadow of a doubt they’re no more open to reason than convinced unionists, so there is little point. There IS a point highlighting their regressive, anti-immigrant narrative however, lest “real” unconvinced voters who still visit Scotland’s most read independence blog think they are representative of more than a small nutter fringe.
The late swing from Yes to No in 2014 may have had multiple reasons. MSM interference and bias may have been a part of it, so might “the Vow”, or just plain last minute nerves. The plain fact remains, the Yes campaign simply failed to convince enough people, largely as a result of not tackling the big issues adequately, and failing to address Project Fear.
A one dimensional campaign of relentless, happy-clappy positivity never really laid a glove on the opposition, or trying to sell the risks of staying in the union and the potential benefits of leaving. It suits some people to blame the MSM deus ex machina, just as it suits them to blame English unionist voters for “stealing” our victory. Far easier to scapegoat others than deal with our own shortcomings after all.
Ron Maclean says:
17 July, 2022 at 6:10 pm
In the best traditions of the colonialist, Andy Ellis contests claimed blood and soil nativism with abuse, rudeness, bluster and blood and soil anti-nativism.
In the best traditions of the washed up journalist, failed Alba Party leadership contestant Ron Brown rummages for relevance by trolling one of its members on someone else’s blog, but sadly for him when Andy Ellis wants a battle of wits, he tends to avoid the unarmed opponents.
Never mind Ron Brown, thanks for playing, here’s your Wings Over Scotland crystal decanter and four glasses.
If by some miracle, an agreement was reached on ‘franchise’, some form of compromise was discovered, would there be love all around?
Or would the bone of contention just become something else?
Currency?
The Queen?
NATO membership?
@ Andy Ellis I think your reading skills are awry I did not and do not assert ANYTHING , as is evidenced throughout your diatribes you are the one who asserts everything, from the vast numbers of this to the majorities of that , to countries refusing to recognise Scotland unless our independence is conducted according to your interpretation of what they think , YOU are as powerless as the rest of us irrespective of your dogmatic and verbose posts
YOU claim I speak for no one but myself, obviously that is true BUT that is also true of yourself no matter how many times you invoke Stuart Campbell’s name or opinion
Try going in to the schemes and punting your middle class views and opinions gained from your immersion in the deprivation ravaged leafy suburbs of Surrey and Edinburgh, try speaking to people who are on the threshold of suicide due to their poverty and helplessness and explain to them how YOUR civic nationalism is going to benefit them ,tell these people how regressively nativist they are when they complain that immigrants and new Scots get more attention than them and are thought more of by THEIR government, try walking a mile in their shoes and then spout your civic nationalism pish
When you and Mark have done your missionary work amongst the NATIVES come back and tell us how many people you converted
“Well no, it isn’t that simple. The code of practice is advisory.” – Ellis
It was nice of them to advise that a portion of the electorate can sign a request for a referendum, and also that the franchise of any referendum can be based on a register of births, deaths & marriages.
Will the international community fail to recognise a nation that followed its own advice? Will it fuck, so piss off with the constant negativity, please & thank you.
@Mark Boyle 6:42pm
If you’re not happy take it to the Rev.
IanB,
I think we should have no NATO membership, no Queen and no currency and only yes voters allowed to vote.
Sorted.
@Breastplate –
Hmmm…think you could be onto something here.
😉
Mark Boyle says: 17 July, 2022 at 10:26 am
As a temporary measure to solve the immediate cost of living crisis, this could work if all parties came together. The article mentions this.
On a more long term basis, the article mentions that France can use fines on supermarkets to ensure co-operation. The threats of penalties on supermarkets can be used to control the level of food the give away to ensure demand doesn’t cause the problems you mentioned.
The franchise issue is only important if we have another referendum. Like many others, I think that’s pretty unlikely in the short to medium term, but if by some chance it does happen then it could become an important issue. I still think a plebiscitary election is preferable: hopefully that will be at Holyrood sooner than the UK 2024 GE (tho’ I won’t hold my breath the SNP/Greens will do it) because the franchise is better, and the optics of a Scottish Parliament based plebiscitary election and declaration of independence are better. A Westminster plebiscite is a harder hill to climb, but still do-able if the referendum route is closed.
As for the various “WIBNI’s” (Wouldn’t It Be Nice If…) being floated about NATO, monarchy/versus reoublic, EU/EEA/EFTA/splendid isolation none of those need to be worried about until after independence.
It’ll almost be worth the wait to see the coupons on the faces of the Popular Front for Brigadoon fringe when they realise the post indy majority is overwhelmingly likely to vote for a multilateralist, NATO and EU membership future. I wouldn’t be surprised if we voted to get shot of the Saxe Coburg Gotha’s though! 🙂
The funny thing about this talk of Glasgow’s tough schemes is that when I was working in Glasgow in my youth and socialising people were taken aback about when I told them where I lived and it was frequently mentioned about my polite, calm demeanour and the town where I was from.
These area’s with ‘bad names’ get their perception from the bad news reported of parts of it. Most of the inhabitants are hard working, friendly but nobody’s fool.
Maybe Mark Boyle’s perception of these areas is due to getting wound up and being at the end of a bit of friendly banter?
I am not a nativist, blood and soil nationalist. Anyone who uses that term needs to get a grip. I am a broad minded European Scot. I welcome all people to an independent Scotland.
But I am pragmatic. In order to get independence and have that open nation. We must break away from actual blood and soil nativists in England. They are the nation holding us back and dragging us down.
So why in God’s name would we let these British Nationalists cast their votes to hold us onto Blighty forever. Do you not understand that without independence nothing can change in Scotland. The English imposed Boris Johnson on us. They dragged us out of Europe. Yet we are to dance around on eggshells accommodating Them?
No we should not do this. This is our nation. They are welcome to come here, but not to drag us down with England.
Once we get independence. They will become Scottish citizens. Then their attitude may change in time. But right now it’s their Britishness that stops them voting yes. The baggage they bring with them.
I don’t care how we get to independence. If we don’t get independence,then I know we die as a nation. So the choice is stark.
The vote may come down to 1 or 2%. Are we happy to allow failure because we allowed the English newbies to stop us. I say again. 10 year residency, no ifs no buts.
@Big Jock (8.52) –
Hear hear.
Facts, eh?
REFERENDUM for UK to retreat from EU,
Residents of the United Kingdom who were citizens of other EU countries were not allowed to vote.
R E F E R E N D U M,
i typed it slowly so Andy might understand.
This dispels your argument that GE are different from referendums.
And no i do not need an apology, i am just glad to educate.
God bless you.
Maybe the Rev should rename this site Wings Over Voting Franchise?
Will the international community fail to recognise a nation that followed its own advice? Will it fuck, so piss off with the constant negativity, please & thank you.
Gaun yersel’ then “Scott”: you could start the ball rolling…you and your carer. Add in the usual suspects in here and you could be up to a dozen,mebbes even more.
Of course, you could try the digital covenant route. That produced great results, huh?
The international community is only really interested in a people which wants self determination if it has the political balls to vote for it by showing a clear majority, in response to a clear question in a referendum or plebiscitary elections.
It *might* be open to considering other paths, but why would it do so in our case? We’re not subject to violence like Kosovo: all we need to do is vote for it in sufficient numbers. You wouldn’t think that should be such a tall order really.
I’d want a lot more reassurance than the collected “wisdom” of James Che’s hot takes on the Treaties of Union, Alf Baird’s second hand misapplication of post colonial theory and self referential linking to his 58 part expostion on Yours for Brigadoon, or your airy assurances that international recognition is guaranteed because *reasons*. So far you’re all kinda coming up empty.
Big Jock8.52pm I am with you all the way. The floods of English people currently smothering the Scottish culture in every desirable nook and cranny of Scotland, racing their mortgage-level gas-guzzlers on narrow winding roads uncaring of who or what they mow down as long as they can assert their superiority, who take over every position in the professions and in the councils, from Community council upwards so they can continue to mould life in Scotland to their needs, wants, beliefs and desires, cannot be allowed to prevent us from escaping their neo-liberal tory policies and laws, all aimed at bettering their already obscene levels of wealth and arrogance. They are killing our Scottish culture and turning our young people into uninformed little britishers. We all know this is being promoted deliberately to manipulate the demographics and hence the votes, so that England can continue to asset-strip Scotland and use our resources to their benefit, not ours. So that we never regain control of our own resources, policies, opportunities. We dont see any benefit whatsoever from our own extraordinary wealth of resources. So anyone who tries to justify these parasites, for that is what they are, being allowed to determine our future as serfs t them, is displaying an obvious anti-Scottish bias, which is treacherous in the extreme to our country, if they then try to identify as one of our Scottish countryfolk. It is nothing to do with ‘blood and soil’, it is simple cultural, national and in the current grim economic situation, individual survival
Now if I set up a group and called it WAME to comprise White and Ethnic Majority Ethics, I would imagine the howls calling me and any members racist.
But that is exactly where we are. Black and Minority Ethics. No longer chosen because of one’s abilities, but on the colour of one’s skin, to the exclusion of others, indigenous others too, to combine and act as a specific skin tone group, the message is pretty skewed.
I mean, this is insane. But it gets worse. Job selection based on cast quotas and not ability. `Fletcher of Saltoun once observed that hereditary physicians make as much sense hereditary monarchs and the same logic applies with positive discrimination.
being black or white doesn’t give you the qualification to perform heart surgery. Maybe it should. Or what about the Tory BAME runner with the Scottish place name Badenoch. Maybe every vote she gets should be counted as three, with Sunak’s votes being counted a two. Not as daft as it sound because Westminster is getting a new Prime Minister and the people get no votes.
Or what about Jocks in Westminster. What special privileges for them. An absolute tirade of hatred and venom from the Speaker and the baying mob do I hear you say.
Yep if I may say so people like Fatima Jobi just spout what mainstream Scots would describe as ” pure pish “
I am not a nativist, blood and soil nationalist. Anyone who uses that term needs to get a grip. I am a broad minded European Scot. I welcome all people to an independent Scotland.
If you’re advocating for the disenfranchisement of anyone who hasn’t lived here for at least 10 years ( I say again. 10 year residency, no ifs no buts ) then you ARE a nativist, blood and soil nationalist. You’re espousing a morally repugnant, politically regressive and electorally suicidal course.
.No we should not do this. This is our nation. They are welcome to come here, but not to drag us down with England.
You and your anti-immigrant, populist mates don’t get to dictate who is Scottish enough though. You can’t present yourself as a broad minded European Scot. I welcome all people to an independent Scotland type one minute, then advocate the exclusion of a large percentage of the population the next, just because you’re worried they *might* vote the wrong way, or turn a close result. It just won’t wash.
If you and others want independence, concentrate on increasing the percentage who vote and the number registered to vote. Focus on persuading more native Scots to support the cause. If we can’t construct a convincing majority – not just 50% +1 which is all we really need, but a really convincing “Fuck you Westminster” majority – from the >80 of the electorate who are native born, and the pro-independence section of New Scots, then our case and our arguments are shit, and we don’t deserve any better.
@Fionan 9.23 pm
Were the britnats responsible for your aversion to paragraph breaks?
(Heads up!: Comment – please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like i and b are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.)
“It’ll almost be worth the wait to see the coupons on the faces of the Popular Front for Brigadoon fringe when they realise the post indy majority is overwhelmingly likely to vote for a multilateralist, NATO and EU membership future.”
Presumptuous, it depends on who the FM is when the questions are asked, if it Sturgeon we won’t even be independent nation and she’s pro-both of them, if we’ve kicked the betrayer out before she f*cks up our chances of ditching this union, then who knows who will be FM, and whether or not they will be pro-EU membership or pro-Nato. If they are not I hope they are strong enough to get that message across to the public.
This dispels your argument that GE are different from referendums.
Errmm…no, it really doesn’t. A General Election and a referendum are not the same thing. You appear to have reading comprehension issues. I don’t think I can really help with those.
“If you’re advocating for the disenfranchisement of anyone who hasn’t lived here for at least 10 years ( I say again. 10 year residency, no ifs no buts ) then you ARE a nativist, blood and soil nationalist. You’re espousing a morally repugnant, politically regressive and electorally suicidal course.”
No Ellis its is you that are a repugnant person comparing a ten years residency plan as some sort of Nazi idea. Do you even have any idea of what you are saying when you call those who see a ten year residency as a fair deal for incomers to vote as a Blood and soil plan.
“”Blood and soil” was a key slogan of Nazi ideology. The nationalist ideology of the Artaman League and the writings of Richard Walther Darré guided agricultural policies which were later adopted by Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler and Baldur von Schirach .”
Comparing us to Hitler and his vile crew is really offensive, Godwin’s Law definitely applies to you, meaning you’ve lost the argument. If you don’t like the idea of the ten years residency that’s fair enough, but compare those who float as blood and soil nationalists as Hitler and his crew were is offensive to say the least, its a cheap shot from someone looking for a rise out of folk.
Presumptuous, it depends on who the FM is when the questions are asked, ..
The FM post indy will presumably be leading a government elected in the first post indy parliamentary elections. I find it hard to believe it’ll be Sturgeon, or even that the SNP will be the majority or even biggest party. All the evidence shows the overwhelming majority of Scots are pro EU, pro NATO, broadly multilateralist and Atlanticist in outlook. You bestie’s recent war is only likely to have strengthened the likelihood of NATO membership.
The new party political environment post indy is surely one of the huge pluses of the whole project. I look forward to helping drive a stake through the black heart of the current SNP almost as much as I do that of the rancid union.
” All the evidence shows the overwhelming majority of Scots are pro EU, pro NATO, ”
Bear in mind that Sweden and Finland haven’t given their citizens a vote on joining Nato, a independent Scotland would be outside Nato, and a independent thinking FM (not the betrayer) might want to keep it that way, as for EU membership many folk now realise that EFTA might be the better choice to keep markets open here in the UK after independence.
PacMan says:
17 July, 2022 at 8:51 pm
The funny thing about this talk of Glasgow’s tough schemes is that when I was working in Glasgow in my youth and socialising people were taken aback about when I told them where I lived and it was frequently mentioned about my polite, calm demeanour and the town where I was from.
These area’s with ‘bad names’ get their perception from the bad news reported of parts of it. Most of the inhabitants are hard working, friendly but nobody’s fool.
Maybe Mark Boyle’s perception of these areas is due to getting wound up and being at the end of a bit of friendly banter?
Do you know how many times I’ve heard that utter pish story, PacMan, for people like you even more devoid from reality than your average trans activist?
People romanticising shit lives in shit places which will remain shit forevermore so long as there’s arseholes who are going to talk them up as being better than they really are – doing the devil’s work who need any excuse not to spend a penny on giving those there hope of a future.
Thousands of times, all the same pishy romanticisms … “friendliest people in the world”, “rough diamonds”, “straight talking” … as if they were quoting from some sort of Lonely Planet Slum Tourism handbook.
“Aye, friendliest sociopaths in the world … always shook your hand and asked after your mother before they knifed you and stole your wallet … those from the eastern quarters are regarded in the Michelin Guide as within the Top Ten Jakey Bams Europe has to offer, the air thick with the savoury aroma of cheap dope, fried potato substances and alcohol laced vomit.”
As Jarvis Cocker said of his song “Common People” which lampooned inverted snobs and “poor is cool” wankers:
“that kind of patronising social voyeurism … that noble savage notion. But if you walk round a council estate, there’s plenty of savagery and not much nobility going on.”
James Che
– I knew a girl once who was a mad nationalist long before I was; she would get pissed and say things like :
WE NEED TO GET ALL THESE FUCKING ENGLISH TO FUCK, right out of Scotland …
– and I would say, in my dazed alco haze
… but AREN’T -YOU- ENGLISH??
she paused, then hardly skipping a beat say
AYE … BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!
context is everything, and we don’t always caveat every statement, you know what I mean.
@Mark Boyle (10.22) –
Ah, right, so we’ve reached the stage where we have to quote popular musical artists to back up our arguments?
Ian Dury.
Andy. Deary me. You need to get out more.
What is this fetish you have about Nativism and Blood & Soil. Are you Michael Forsyth in disguise.
I will make it clearer for you. I don’t want students from England on a 4 year degree voting on my countries future. I don’t want second homers voting on my countries future. I don’t want people who have been here for a month voting on my countries future. I make no apologies.
This all things to all men propaganda you are spouting. Is just paper talk without actual reasoning.
Do you think English students should vote on Scotlands future? Honestly?
If you do then you are beyond reasoning with.
I am of the view that those who come to Scotland and then vote No in any Indy referendum or vote for out and out anti Scottish Political Parties should be told that they are not welcome. That these “blood and soil butchers pinny waving British Nationalists” can get tae fuck. That these anti Scottish Bigots should leave and take the blood and soil Brit Nationalist Quizzers of which there are too many here with them. Better yet that they don’t come here at all in the first place. I see more Butchers Pinafores flying than I see Saltires in my home village. The same is also true of the neighboring village. The predominant accent isn’t a soft Highland one but a braying Englishmen one that grates of cacophonous arrogance. I tolerantly suffer the sneers of No voting Brit Nat Tories every day.
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 10:44 pm
@Mark Boyle (10.22) –
Ah, right, so we’ve reached the stage where we have to quote popular musical artists to back up our arguments?
‘…and what we think we know, to what is really so, is but a smithereen of what it might’ve been.’
Ian Dury.
I actually met the man (very briefly) and Micky Gallagher (longer) on the “Mr Love Pants” tour down at the Ayr Gaiety. Apparantly I was lucky, as I caught Ian on a good day – he could be a right shit to his own fans, but I didn’t know that. Impending mortality may have mellowed him, but he later sacked Davey Payne mid-tour.
I don’t think there was a dry eye in the house when he did “Bed O’Roses No.9”.
I haven’t really noticed anyone romanticising life or people in poor areas.
Isn’t the whole point of independence that we want to lift people out of poverty and squalor, elevate them, make them better people, create conditions that allow them to live in dignity and flourish as human beings?
Yes, many let themselves down, turn to drugs, drink, etc. That’s true in most of the poverty blackspots of the world, though.
What exactly do you expect from the poorest and most downtrodden people in Western Europe?
That said, on the vile scale, I’d take a working class Glaswegian any day over a middle class bore from just about anywhere.
And, actually, I think the higher up the social ladder you go, the more disgusting people and values tend to get (that’s a generalisation, of course, it doesn’t apply to ever single person).
Let’s be honest, though, to be middle class is to dedicate your life to the pursuit of money. That’s true of the careers they choose (who the fuck would genuinely wants to be a dentist, for example, looking in disgusting mouths all day?), who they marry, and much else…
At least the poor have an excuse for pursuing money… they need it to survive.
Iain. I recently visited Bute. On entering the Harbour there was a huge Union Flag. Going through the town and out to Kilchattan Bay. I counted 7 Union Flags and one Saltire.
It’s happening all over. There were fewer Butchers Aprons pre devolution. I think many see the prospect of independence as a threat to their Britishness. Hence the reactive flags come out.
There is something about seeing that flag that says: ” we own you, you are not Scottish” It’s about crushing Scottish identity. It’s why I truly despise it.
Big Jock
Indeed.
Everything is English, companies, food, MSM, airlines……
Watched a wee bit of the open this morning, all English, they have to be in charge.
@Mark Boyle (10.55) –
Nice one.
I’m glad I never met him, but he was a hero all the same.
(BTW, the reason he hoofed Davy Payne was that – allegedly of course – he pulled a knife on Mickey Gallagher’s son.)
And if ye thot the world coundnae get anymare mad. Donald Trump will be the Rep Candidate for 2024. LMFAO.
Hail the mad world we live in.
Careful there, Arms Industry Andy….
your endless farting on here is making lots of folk realise what a lot of pish it is that you are promoting!
“ Daisy Walker @ 1118 am “ . Daisy what a very perceptive post from your good self this morning. You are “right on the money” there with everything you say . I couldn’t agree more with your train of thought and analytical analysis of our present predicament . If only , if only our political “ leadership” had a fraction of your pinpoint realpolitik. Thank you Daisy.
A bit off topic..
The Facebook group ALBA RISING will shortly be archived.
Reason? A rogue Admin changed the group privacy setting from Public to Private. Apparently this is now irreversible.
New group at
link to facebook.com
“Daisy Walker says:
17 July, 2022 at 5:27 pm
@ Andy Ellis
Dear Andy, I always scroll past your posts. Kind regards. DW.”
Me too Daisy, its been pretty much the same point about the sanctity of the one true franchise for years now.
I suppose there’s some who don’t find it tedious
@ Mark Boyle 9.46am 17th July who said
“You’d shit your pants at the thought of going anywhere near Easterhouse or Castlemilk, champ. Unlike you, I’ve actually worked in some of these places and so am not full of the romantic bullshit too many Scots wanting to appear broadminded have towards how low human beings can go of their own volition.”
You’re a joke, champ , with your denigration of people as lazy bastards , people you don’t even know living in circumstances you haven’t a clue about , and as for your arsehole shit your pants comment I was brought up in Easterhouse and ran 2 icecream vans in Castlemilk and Easterhouse at the height of the drug wars and I didn’t even shit my pants once , but the big man Mark knows all about the lazy bastards who live in these places cause he worked there once , big fucking deal , and as for your romantic bullshit pish , there is fuck all romantic about reading pish from arseholes that categorise ordinary people as lazy bastards because they THINK they are superior
And as for your constant attempts to introduce religious bigotry to the forum , when I was brought up in Easterhouse I attended London Road primary school which was right next to Celtic Park and our playground was littered with broken bottles from people throwing bottles over the walls because it was a non denominational state school , but hey ho there are loonatics everywhere
So with your experience of working alongside the lazy bastard natives you and Andy are well suited for missionary work
There’s a bit of potential twist in the franchise debate that I haven’t seen mentioned (if it has been mentioned, I missed it and apologies)…
If we use a General Election as a vehicle for a plebiscite, we’d be using the same register and franchise terms used for the Brexit vote, rather than the local election register and franchise terms we used in 2014.
That has quite big implications for our chances of winning. Off the bat,I think it would prevent 16 to 18 year olds and most EU citizens from taking part. That’s not good. I assume citizens from the rest of the UK who are resident in Scotland would be automatically allowed to take part.
Hmmmmmmmm…
Hatuey says:
18 July, 2022 at 2:29 am
There’s a bit of potential twist in the franchise debate that I haven’t seen mentioned (if it has been mentioned, I missed it and apologies)…
If we use a General Election as a vehicle for a plebiscite…
—
There’s no chance of it happening, but if it did the yoons would likely boycott it in large numbers, in order to reduce the turnout.
‘Pro-indy’ could in theory win all the seats with 100% of votes cast, on a turnout of less than 50%.
There’s also the small matter of getting UK Parliament to recognise any majority as having force to effect change.
The Local Govt franchise is different in England than those in Scotland & Wales. The former is far more restrictive in who it allows a vote.
Any vote on independence must use a specially created franchise. We’re not running a tombola.
twathater says:
18 July, 2022 at 1:30 am
You’re a joke, champ , with your denigration of people as lazy bastards , people you don’t even know living in circumstances you haven’t a clue about , and as for your arsehole shit your pants comment I was brought up in Easterhouse and ran 2 icecream vans in Castlemilk and Easterhouse at the height of the drug wars and I didn’t even shit my pants once …And as for your constant attempts to introduce religious bigotry to the forum , when I was brought up in Easterhouse I attended London Road primary school which was right next to Celtic Park and our playground was littered with broken bottles from people throwing bottles over the walls because it was a non denominational state school
😀 Aaaaand Twathater’s head’s gone! 😀
Ran two ice cream vans at the height of the drug wars … even for this place’s array of flannel merchants that one’s a belter – well roared, Bottom!
Bear in mind that Sweden and Finland haven’t given their citizens a vote on joining Nato, a independent Scotland would be outside Nato, and a independent thinking FM (not the betrayer) might want to keep it that way, as for EU membership many folk now realise that EFTA might be the better choice to keep markets open here in the UK after independence.
Unless you’re one of those who says all polls are pish, then hums and haws when they turn out to be broadly correct, it seems a bit odd to assert (for that is all that it is) that the Swedish and Finnish people are somehow being dragged in to NATO against their wills. All the polling evidence shows a rapid and overwhelming shift in public opinion in BOTH countries in direct response to the Orcs invasion of the country which shall not be named.
The idea that the stolid, dependable, pragmatic Swedes and Finns, who have both spent centuries in the case of the former, and decades in the case of the latter, studiously preserving their neutrality would somehow want to or be capable of forcing NATO membership on to an unwilling populace is for the birds.
Vlad and his mates have played a blinder in avoiding the strengthening of NATO eh?
As for Scotland post indy, I thought “Scott” kept telling us that Scotland was already a signatory to all the extant treaties, so we’d automatically be signed up…? Or was that James Che…?
I I doubt either NATO or the EU will make it hard for an independent Scotland to join: why would they? I know there’s always been an anti-EU minority in the SNP and broader independence movement, but they’re not likely to suddenly transform in to a majority of the vote post indy given the in built majority for EU membership in the electorate as a whole. EFTA/EEA membership as a stop gap seems a reasonable alternative, which is I think what a few folk in Alba and the SSRG have been saying.
Making predictions on what folk might think in the future based on what they think now isn’t really a reliable view.
If Scotland returns to self-governing status we would then have control of broadcasting so could begin to properly inform Scots from our own perspective, so they can then decide on certain matters.
This is something we clearly can’t do within the Union as broadcasting is so blatantly biased with its attempts to support and preserve the Union and those that benefit from it, whilst also pushing all the divisive shit as distraction that keeps folk bickering amongst themselves, whilst the rich continue to syphon off our resources and assets.
Oh dem nativists. LOL
link to msn.com
I see Self-ID has become an * issue * in the Tory ferrets-in-a-sack Cuntership Contest . Well, who saw THAT one coming ?
Only anyone with the slightest Political awareness ; which , ergo , excludes the entire SNP hierarchy and attendant Rainbow Worriers
If it’s being used as a weapon to wound an opponent deemed supportive in this context think how destructive it will be during any Independence campaign ( if there ever is another one )
Yet one more big knobbly, nail-encrusted club handed – gratis – to our opponents by the strategic geniuses that purport to be serving the cause of Independence .
BRAVO !
GET SET. A.I.M . F….izzle-out
Hatuey@2.20am.
Yes I mentioned this further back on this thread, that Westminster set the criteria for the Brexit vote, tweaking it here and there, so why can’t we set the our own criteria for a indyref would receiving abuse for floating ideas.
“Along with citizens from most European countries Scottish sixteen-and-seventeen years old did not get the vote either as they do in Holyrood elections, also Members of the House of Lords could vote in the EU referendum even though they are not allowed to vote in general elections.
Westminster with Brexit in mind, picked which groups of people it wanted to enfranchise and which it did not.
If its good enough for Westminster then it good enough for Holyrood to pick which groups of people it wants to enfranchise and which groups it does not want to.”
Of course none of our ideas will ever see the light of day if Sturgeon is in charge when an indyref or plebiscitary election comes around, of which we’ll lose with the betrayer at the helm.
I wonder what the weather is like in the south of England.
Ellis @8.10am
Actually polls can only give you a snapshot of the publics view, who would have thought that Johnson would’ve achieved an eighty-seat majority.
For two- ultra democratic countries I, and I suppose other folk were a bit surprised that both countries government didn’t allow the public to choose.
We all know why Turkey blocked them from joining and why Turkey then withdrew the objection after both countries agreed to comply with Turkey’s wishes that will lead to an untold amount of deaths for a certain group of people you say the Swedes and the Finns by joining Nato have blood on their hands.
Regards the WM Plebiscite.
I don’t trust that this a good vehicle to deliver independence. The 16-17 year olds could be crucial, they don’t get a vote. Added to that we know that 25% of Labour voters in Scotland are pro-indi. Are they going to vote SNP to get independence, if they think Labour has a chance in England?
The better option is Sturgeon awaiting the SC court big fat no. Then dissolving Holyrood in protest, and calling a Scottish election based on independence.
We know she won’t do that, but that’s the route I would choose.
Big Jock,
My own personal opinion is that the voting franchise is less important than who is in charge of the process.
I’ve got that whole mistrust and cynicism thing when it comes to the UK.
Maybe I’m wrong to think that way and they really will try to be at their very best when dealing with uppity Jockland.
Honesty and integrity will surely come to the fore exactly like when they’ve had dealings with any other nation in the past.
RoS: “Yes I mentioned this further back on this thread, that Westminster set the criteria for the Brexit vote, tweaking it here and there…”
Didn’t see that, Republic. My understanding was that they simply opted to use the same register normally used in General Elections. Everything I understand and have said on this derives from here;
“Essentially the UK has two electoral registers. One is for local and EU elections, the other for Westminster elections. The first register includes all EU residents in the UK. The second register only includes residents from the EU who are citizens of the UK, Eire, Malta and the Republic of Cyprus. On 25th May 2015 the UK government chose to use the second register plus Gibraltar (only 30,000) for the referendum on Britain in the EU. Consequently, although some residents from the EU who are not UK citizens were allowed to vote, most were not. The right to vote depended on which country they came from.”
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
RepublicofScotland,
The counter balance to the West’s expansion of NATO will be an expansion of BRICS which will make it more difficult for the West to bully other countries with economic sanctions or regime change.
It will inevitably lead to a diminished USA and chums as we can already see that sanctions don’t have the precision that were hoped for but comes with a lot of blowback and collateral damage, not just for the plebs, which was always eminently acceptable, but to the power brokers themselves.
The real battle the West is keen on winning is to stop the Renminbi replacing the Dollar in global trading.
Unfortunately the sanctions against Russia come with unintended consequences and may hasten the end of US Dollar dominance. If this happens there will be a knock on effect of NATO membership expenses.
Newton’s 3rd Law comes in handy for pretty much everything.
Some people call it karma.
Ellis: “it seems a bit odd to assert (for that is all that it is) that the Swedish and Finnish people are somehow being dragged in to NATO against their wills.”
Define “against their wills”.
People vote for things that are contrary to their interests all the time, and one of the main reasons they do that is down to lies and propaganda. I shouldn’t need to explain that to any Scottish independence supporter after 2014…
The fact is that NATO membership for a lot of countries, and I would argue that includes Scotland, would most certainly result in increased insecurity rather than increased security.
It is inconceivable that Russia would invade or attack Scotland after independence if Scotland was not a member of NATO. It’s the stuff of the most ridiculous fantasies.
Being a NATO member, on the other hand, more or less guarantees Russia would attack Scotland if WWIII started.
Where’s the security in that?
Hatuey – The reason Russian subs patrol the North Atlantic, is due to the UK being in Nato and us having nuclear weapons.
So I agree. As soon as we stop being a threat, then the Russians would lose interest in us. Where the heck is England going to put it’s subs and weapons? I think this is at the heart of the anti independence obsession in England.
Hatuey @ 11:49 am
“People vote for things that are contrary to their interests all the time, and one of the main reasons they do that is down to lies and propaganda. I shouldn’t need to explain that to any Scottish independence supporter after 2014.”
Excellent point, much as Brexit showed, and the indyref result in 2014. Political science tells us that people vote in line with the ‘values’ they hold, and not for what may be in their best interests. In a colonial environment it is “the colonizers values that are sovereign” (Albert Memmi). Eradicate colonialism and it would then be the native values that are sovereign. Which is why “independence is a fight for a national culture” (Frantz Fanon) and the different values that come with it. Also worth remembering that in colonialism there are no human values (Aime Cesaire).
@ Mark Boyle
At the beginning of the year there was a video that was posted on here about the police stopping a New years party in a Glasgow pub.
I had posted about it and called one of the individuals a Baldy auld Ned. It didn’t go down too well with one poster and I’m sure others shared that sentiment.
I am highlighting this because in no way I am looking at working class culture with rose tinted glasses. It has it’s good and bad points.
I know I am making an assumption here but your posts can be very abrupt, patronising and antagonistic. If you act the same way in real life then maybe you have come across people who don’t take this and have cut you down to size.
Maybe that is what is shaping your viewpoint and maybe I’m totally way off with my assumption. While I find your comment towards me bemusing, it isn’t something I feel too strongly about so I’ll have to agree with disagree with you on this one.
I do not see a ten year residency franchise plan for allowing vote in Scotland a attack on any particular group.
The ten year residency includes any nationality, that has resided in Scotland for that time period or longer as the case may be.
What is does do, is go some distance to protecting the franchise from plants, as Andy Ellis , himself suggested,
As Boris Johnstone stated that Russians interfered in the last Scottish vote on Scottish independence,
meaning we do not actually know for sure if the Scots had voted NO to the question independence in 2014.
This newly discovered ( for Scottish Voters, interference that BJ speaks of ) however did not make him / Westminster offer Scots a second vote fair opportunity.
Instead he stoutly refuses to play a fair re-run at all.
So it is of utmost importance to ensure the Scottish independence vote has more protection this time around,
The other side of this particular method is no one can say that the Scottish franchise is predjudiced or racist to where some one is born, or what nationality they are.
” As Boris Johnstone stated that Russians interfered in the last Scottish vote on Scottish independence…”
I think that * theory * is utterly ridiculous James ; just as similar made-up nonsense about Russian interference in the Trump v Clinton U.S Election was .
All of it ACTUAL misinformation from the same sources intent on policing/controlling the Internet to * protect us from misinformation * 🙂
James – There can be no suggestion it is discriminatory , as you have correctly pointed out.
The 10 year residency would apply to anyone moving to Scotland. Because surely people who have lived here all their lives or spent decades here. Should have more rights in deciding the future of this nation than newbies. Simply because we have earned it over that long period of time.
Does anyone seriously agree a student who has spent a month in Scotland can veto what a lifetime citizen like me votes for? You want to talk about discrimination, then look how discriminatory that is to indigenous Scots or long term residents.
Robert -Do you think the English interfered in our referendum though? I don’t just mean in the media. I mean chicanery with the franchise and numbers!
Breastplate @11.43am.
Yes, US/Western hegemony will decline, and the ironic thing about it is that its self-inflicted, and the worlds largest trading bloc is no longer the EU.
link to visualcapitalist.com
“Consequently, although some residents from the EU who are not UK citizens were allowed to vote, most were not. The right to vote depended on which country they came from.””
Thank you Hatuey for the info, Westminster can set the criteria on who could vote in Brexit, yet when we discuss the possibility of setting Scotland’s in here, we are for some Blood and Soil Nationalists, of course that’s preposterous and not even worth rising to.
Robert Hughes 2.13pm.
Yes the Dodgy Dossier or Steele Dossier was compiled by Chris Steele, Steele an ex-UK spy, he was the former head of the Russian Desk for MI6.
“It is inconceivable that Russia would invade or attack Scotland after independence if Scotland was not a member of NATO. It’s the stuff of the most ridiculous fantasies.”
Hatuey.
You must remember that Nato’s remit was obsolete when Russia collapsed, the supposed threat disappeared, and Nato as French President Macron said is “Braindead” countries were reducing their military spending well below the Nato required 2%.
The US, the head of Nato had to find some way of renewing the legitimacy of Nato in the eyes of European governments, they have achieved that and more, as Nato spreads its wings to partrol the South China seas. More conflict is I’m afraid is inevitable.
Big Jock says:
18 July, 2022 at 2:20 pm
Robert -Do you think the English interfered in our referendum though? I don’t just mean in the media. I mean chicanery with the franchise and numbers!
Hard , if not impossible , to know the degree of COVERT chicanery in 2014 Jock , though all the * carry on * re postal votes ( so easily manipulated ) , votes being ferried * elsewhere * for counting , Davidson and others knowing the result well in advance etc provide grounds for suspicion .
The OVERT interference though must have had a significant influence on the outcome . I don’t need to remind you of the degree of Anti-YES propaganda/scaremongering that took place . We all seen it , and none of us could do anything to prevent it
It will be several magnitudes more intense in any future Independence campaign .
Which is why effectively re-running 2014 in such a scenario – precisely what the current SNP are planning to do – is nothing short of insanity . Or……deliberate sabotage
Robert -Yes. Remember Cameron’s first words: ” There will be no recount”.
The idea of a recount terrified them, because it would have exposed the fraud. I am convinced they had to win by at least 5% to avoid a recount. They panicked on the weeks before when it became so close. So they made sure it wasn’t a close result.
I was in Crete 3 weeks before the vote. I managed to watch BBC live. It was the day a poll had showed yes leading by 2% for the first time. I was convinced we were on our way.
Then to drop back to 45% from 51 or 52% in the space of a week or so! This convinced me there was fraud.
I also think that Germany were playing Scotland that night. I went to the pub to watch the game. I had to listen to a fella in a Scotland strip, lecturing some Greek locals on why Scotland should never be independent. I felt like ripping that strip off him!
Robert Hughes,
I know that, I qoute the other two people the other two people whomnalways go on about how dangerous russia is but co not think Scotland should protect its voting franchise.
It like arguing with a contrary persons in the same body. Lol 🙂
Robert Hughes says:
18 July, 2022 at 3:02 pm
Big Jock says:
Alex Salmond has stated that the franchise for a future referendum should be run along the same lines as 2014.
He has also indicated that every person living in Scotland is entitled to vote.I have no idea when or if this was ever discussed at any Alba meeting. Is it Alba policy or coming from on high
So same result as the last time
Independence! But only if it’s the right cuddly-wuddly type of independence. If there is just one person who thinks independence has been regained without the correct amount of cuddly-wuddliness then independence must be refused and we must all be made to apologise to cuddly-wuddly Westminster.
James C . Apologies , I missed the point you were making .
Wullie . If ALBA are also planning or supporting an INDY REF 1 remake they are no better/smarter than the SNP .
It’s all very academic at the moment though . October ’23 is a LONG way off and I’ll be very surprised if * something * doesn’t arise to enable Sturgeon to postpone this mooted kid-on Ref . My hunch is that is what she’s banking on , either through foreknowledge or calculation .
“What is this winter going to look like when home heating bills go through the roof, industries across Europe succumb to the higher energy costs, unemployment soars to Great Depression levels, and rolling blackouts become a regular feature of life in the west?”
link to unz.com
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 6:47 pm
If by some miracle, an agreement was reached on ‘franchise’, some form of compromise was discovered, would there be love all around?
Or would the bone of contention just become something else?
Currency?
The Queen?
NATO membership?
Interesting question!
The ‘franchise’ postings will probably come to an end when the Rev has had enough as he did with Covid and the ‘recent war’. Then they’ll be something else that will dominate the posts.
That’s the way things go on Wings.
Liz G says:
18 July, 2022 at 1:01 am
Me too Daisy, its been pretty much the same point about the sanctity of the one true franchise for years now.
I suppose there’s some who don’t find it tedious
I’m guessing the couple of posters who have the ‘ongoing discussion’ do not find it tedious.
They seem to love having a good old ding-dong!
Is it interesting for the majority of readers probably not.
It’s a shame but that’s the way things are on Wings.
Roberrt Hughes,
And perhaps I wasn’t very clear, my apologise too.
Hatuey says:
18 July, 2022 at 5:40 pm
“What is this winter going to look like when home heating bills go through the roof, industries across Europe succumb to the higher energy costs, unemployment soars to Great Depression levels, and rolling blackouts become a regular feature of life in the west?”
You can put on extra clothing & use candles for lighting but how are people going to charge their phones & companies survive without the internet.
I have this new phone package from BT which can’t be used in the event of a power cut.
The older system you were able to plug in a wired phone if there was a power cut that no longer works.
Power cuts in this digital age will be a major problem a lot worse than it was during the
‘The Winter of Discontent’
Might have to stock up with these power packs & batteries for transistor radios & torches.
A discussion about things we could do during the upcoming ‘The Winter of Discontent’ might be interesting.
” Power cuts in this digital age will be a major problem a lot worse than it was during the
‘The Winter of Discontent’”
What’s coming down the line will make ” The Winter Of Discontent ” look like ” The Summer Of Love ” , Ruby .
Unless sanity returns to Geopolitics .And there’s precious little hope of that as long as the US is still run as a War Economy and the EU + Little England continue to tow the Neo Con hawkish line
You often see nearly new interesting paperbacks in charity shops & at car boot sales but you reject them because you much prefer the e-book. Might be worth buying a few just in case of blackouts.
If you can’t charge your ‘Kindle’ you’ll have to go back to the old fashioned way of reading.
You’ll probably have to get an old fashioned torch as well, the re-chargeable kind will be useless as will the re-chargeable batteries.
This might be worth reading if you are considering switching to BT Digital.
link to 12ft.io
BT has admitted vulnerable customers could be unable to call the emergency services during a sustained power cut after old copper landlines are torn out.
PacMan says:
18 July, 2022 at 1:05 pm
I know I am making an assumption here but your posts can be very abrupt, patronising and antagonistic.
Are you for fking real?
You spend your ENTIRE TIME on here looking for bites. Period.
Same as half a dozen other menchildren under alias, so I’ll take no instruction from the likes of you on netiquette.
Oh, but when you do it, it’s “bants”, right?
“Bants” is pants – pursued by those trying to kid themselves their best days aren’t behind them, if they ever even began.
@ Ruby
You could simply Self ID as a bear and hibernate this winter so you’ll be warm and cozy with the fur jaiket, and be able to sleep through franchise chatter…
I’m currently still Self IDing as a golden eagle so may fly south if I run out of home grown / caught food. Have years worth of firewood harvested from last winter’s storms so woodburner will keep me warm and cook on if required.
I could see this shit coming down the line years ago so raised my self sufficiency game.
“You spend your ENTIRE TIME on here looking for bites. Period.
Same as half a dozen other menchildren under alias, so I’ll take no instruction from the likes of you on netiquette.” – Boyle
The term ‘period’ comes from the land of the insane across the Atlantic. It means, in effect, ‘full stop’. Its usage is a sign of the lazy & weak-minded filled with self-loathing – Exhibit A) Niggle Fa Rage
Boyle spends his entire time on here telling people to fuck off and die, traducing the fine people of Drumchapel and elsewhere, standing up for yer man Ellis (who also uses wank phrases, such as ‘sophomoric’ and ‘Mutt n Jeff’ and ‘period’), and generally displaying all the saveloy suppers on his shoulders.
Dan says:
18 July, 2022 at 7:19 pm
@ Ruby
You could simply Self ID as a bear and hibernate this winter so you’ll be warm and cozy with the fur jaiket, and be able to sleep through franchise chatter…
That could be risky I might get some nutter shooting me for my fur jaiket or just so they can stuff me and have me in the vestibule of their baronial mansion.
I’ve decided to invest in some professional mountaineering gear. If it keeps you warm on Mount Everest it should be fine for the upcoming ‘Winter of Discontent’
Ten cardigans, five pairs of trousers & three housecoats can get a bit heavy & restrictive whereas mountaineering gear is very lightweight.
That’s my 2nd tip. Buy lightweight mountaineering gear.
It’ll work even if there aren’t any blackouts and you just want to cut down on electricity.
Don’t bother with the ‘heated jaikit’ like Stu’s ‘cos it needs to be recharged.
A lot fucking playground shit going on which is making me angry ‘cos I’m not allowed to play anymore.
Liz: “I suppose there’s some who don’t find it tedious…”
The franchise debate, tedious as it may seem, is about more than the franchise. It’s about national identity and the very idea of a Scottish people. It’s not nationalism or nativism to give emphasis to these things, as Ellis wants you to believe.
Independence, first and foremost, is about Scottish people, not land and dirt, or lines on a map. It’s about protecting Scottish people and making their lives better — nothing else.
And if Scottish people are central to one side of the equation, the post-independence side, as I’m sure we all agree they are, why wouldn’t they also be central to the side of the equation that achieves independence?
Through these discussions on the franchise, which I have barely been involved in, I have come to realise the importance of national identity both as a vehicle for achieving independence and as the final destination.
Changing the franchise to reflect all that is of the utmost importance, now more than ever.
We aren’t just people who happen to reside in Scotland. We are Scottish people and Scotland is our forever home.
That matters. Scottishness matters.
Well said Hatuey .
About time more on here and elsewhere started grasping this
@ Hatuey
Maybe need to get #SLM #ScottishLivesMatter trending to highlight oor woeful plight to yon “international community”. IIRC they have a Thunderbirds team that deals with international rescues…
Surely we meet the criteria of being an oppressed minority within the UK these days. Over 50 years of not having the governments we voted for, the democratic deficit, having our resources exploited for little if any benefit to us, losing oor EU citizenship, degradation of oor women’s rights, etc.
But if Ruby is right and there are soon to be power cuts making interweb # manipulation difficult. We could always muster regional choirs of ethnic planet made of cheese howlers to get into some serious nativist tribal inchoate screeching to get the “international community’s” attention.
I think SLM is a great idea but I wouldn’t want to detract from plight of Palestinians who have had a marginally more depressing 50 years than us.
Seriously, though, I hate the way the independence movement has been crowbarred to the right on international issues like Palestine, NATO, globalism, etc.
All of a sudden we are using Scottish taxpayers money to buy weapons for Ukrainians and prolong a needless war, the prolonging of which can result in nothing but more misery and more chaos for everybody, including Ukrainians.
More people should be talking about the way Sturgeon is trying to turn the country and the Indy movement into cheerleaders for US and British warmongering.
They sneaked all that in, didn’t they…
Now I could just be delirious from the scorchioness of today, but howz this for a perfect resolution to the franchise question…
Seeing as everything is on a spectrum these days, howzabowts “being Scottish” is too.
Aw the #NuScots can indeed be enfranchised and get a vote, but #SuperScots get two! 🙂
Hatuey @ 8:56 pm
“Independence, first and foremost, is about Scottish people”
This is correct and, moreover, as Albert Memmi said, “independence is a matter only for the colonized”, i.e. nobody else.
link to thenational.scot
That’s actually bad news, scotsrenewables, but I’m sure the SNP will see it as a victory since it means they can kick everything into the long grass and waste more time.
Had it been rejected out of hand by the Supreme Court, we’d in theory be poised to use the next General Election as a referendum.
This development makes it likely that the next General Election will come and go before we get a ruling from the Supreme Court.
All coincidence, of course.
Lol @ what’s coming down the line will make the winter of discontent look like the summer of love… (Robert Hughes above)
That’s quote of the day, for sure.
The Supreme Court written submissions have to be in by 9th August. So UK government puts theirs in, Scottish government also.
The judge then decides if it warrants a live oral case. Or the decision can be reached as per the submissions. I do not expect this will be as lengthy as we thought.
If we are going to be adult about it, or at least pretend to be serious, we should acknowledge that the Supreme Court has actually already ruled on the powers that Holyrood has to do anything and everything, even in relation to devolved matters;
“The Sewel convention is not legally binding. It was put into law in the Scotland Act 2016 and the Wales Act 2017. But although these acts “recognise” the existence of the convention, they do not limit the power of the UK parliament to legislate on all matters for all parts of the UK.
“The Supreme Court ruled, in 2017, that since the Sewel convention remains just a political convention, “policing the scope and manner of its operation does not lie within the constitutional remit of the judiciary”. This means the devolved governments cannot turn to the courts to enforce the legislative consent convention.
“As a result, the UK parliament can pass bills without devolved consent, even when the UK government accepts that the legislation in question falls within the scope of the Sewel convention.”
link to instituteforgovernment.org.uk
In other words, the “parliament” in Holyrood is basically a Wendy House, a place where kids go to play games and pretend they’re politicians. It has absolutely zero power to do anything, even in devolved areas, and that’s official.
Referring the referendum issue to the Supreme Court is nothing more than a stunt that will waste more precious time, with Scotland drifting further and further away from the opportunity provided by Brexit with every day that passes.
Ultimately, if Holyrood has no enforceable constitutional rights over devolved matters, what rights do you think it has over expressly reserved matters and the constitution itself?
Why are we waiting on this crap again?
@ Hatuey 2:00pm
Holyrood is doing a lot of damage for a Wendy House. Let’s take the immediate challenge of a collapse of the SNHS and in particular hospital capability. The solution to which will take 15 to 20 years to put right. What’s happening? Senior and junior hospital clinicians are taken 4 routes out of the system because of their unsustainable rotas.
1 They are retraining as GPs. Good? Robbing Peter to Paul.
2 Leaving medicine all together and taking jobs within the civil service or the Corporate world.
3 Emigrating to join demonstrably better health systems in terms of their pastoral staff care.
4 Early retirement of senior staff because of disadvantageous pension changes.
The Scot Gov solution? Humza says I promise from August 3rd to cap rota commitments to sustainable levels. In an ever decreasing circle of less staff, that is operationally illiterate. Words easy to say. The Scot Gov are not addressing the fundamental problems. In the pipeline for many years, no doubt Brexit will get the blame. What will we see first? A deterioration of performance indicators, already happening. It will take 15 to 20 years to fix this. Why?. 5 years for a basic medical degree although increasingly, students are inter collating so 6 years (Keeping their options open even at this stage). Because of the shortening of the hospital training programme. Many are taking posts such as clinical fellows or locums for a couple of years to gain more experience before entering the 6 year pre consulting training. And then we have the problem of gaps in uptake of certain specialisms eg radiology, psychiatry. We can of course take mitigating action now but that requires an understanding of operational challenges lacking in the Scot Gov. Standby and strap in for a bumpy health ride. Not bad for a Wendy House.
Hatuey says:
19 July, 2022 at 2:00 am
Why are we waiting on this crap again?
Being adult about it, Scottish Devolution and Scottish “Government” aren’t there to govern, but simply present the illusion of Government.
Whenever Westminster commits some unconstitutional outrage against Scotland, all Sturgeon’s Government do is pour out waffle that “Scotland won’t accept this”, but it’s all hypocrisy. They not only do roll over and accept it, they set about bedding it in and accommodating the outrage. The can even change the law retrospectively, and Scotland’s SNP says boo-hoo then laps it up.
If you want to see the “real” purpose of Holyrood, ironically, you need to look at Pete Wishart.
After eight years of watching the SNP doing nothing to advance Scottish Independence, (at times doing their best to screw it up), an important section of Scotland’s society, those most determined to see Scotland independent, are quite naturally exasperated, angry, and in despair about the SNP’s toxic mix of incompetence, indolence, and failure. (Let’s not even mention the crazy bits).
Typically, that anger and pressure is what drives change in a Society. When the people have had enough of something, it’s public disillusionment which drives change.
But Holyrood, and Pete Wishart, are providing the UK Establishment with a safety valve when it comes to Scotland, because it’s now Holyrood and the SNP who continually dissipate whatever pressure the “real” Independence Community tries to build up.
The SNP is now the shock absorber helping the Westminster over bumpy ground.
Why the special mention for Pete Wishart? He is utterly blind to his own failure. He simply cannot admit that the angry people shouting at him because he made them angry.
He didn’t listen when they were disappointed.
He didn’t listen when they were disillusioned.
He didn’t listen when they got frustrated.
He didn’t listen when they got exasperated.
He didn’t listen when they demanded explanations.
He didn’t listen when they started getting angry.
He didn’t listen when they brought up broken promises.
He didn’t listen when they said he had to do more.
He didn’t listen when the anger was approaching boiling point.
He didn’t listen when they warned him he was splitting the movement.
He didn’t listen when they set up ALBA.
When the pull their hair out and bawl at him, fk me, he listens.
He didn’t listen, because he’s Pete Wishart, a bigger narcissist that Sturgeon herself, and anyone who dares to be critical of an ultra narcissist like Pete must immediately be demonised as a subhuman troll who is unhinged through an irrational hatred. Rinse and repeat.
Do I care about Wishart? No. His type are ten a penny, and Local Government in Scotland is awash with them. I couldn’t care less about Pete Wishart.
But what I do care about, is that Scotland’s rage with the Union, Independence, cannot develop momentum because Devolution sees Scotland’s rage funnelled through Holyrood, where an utterly useless and ineffective administration dedicates itself to dissipating the anger and stalling Scotland’s momentum rather than focussing it in the right place.
Holyrood is functioning precisely as Westminster intended it to function. Scotland invests all it’s hopes, ambitions and aspirations in a shower of political delinquents who only ambition is getting their snout in the trough. Hey, that worked for 315 years.
The tragedy is, Westminster expected that function to be delivered by a perennially servile, unionist Labour Party. Alex Salmond shattered that complacency, and won a majority they said couldn’t be won, and for a brief moment Holyrood sparkled, and Scotland grew.
Then along came Nicola Sturgeon with her own ideas about what a servile unionist party should look like.
So here we Independentists sit in our rocky retreats; a Union to topple, a devolved “government” to circumvent, no trust in Sturgeon, no faith in Holyrood, no faith in the SNP, time running out, and our once mighty YES army still drinking the SNP Koolaid.
It seems all we have left is our Independence Elite. We shall see how elite they are.
Sooner or later Scotland, its pro independence politicians and/or pro independence supporters, must be prepared to break Westminster’s laws in order to regain our independence.
United Nations Secretary-General has agreed to sign a ‘memorandum of understanding’ with Klaus Schwab’s WEF to accelerate Agenda 2030.
The ‘international community’ at work.
Dan says:
18 July, 2022 at 10:35 pm
Now I could just be delirious from the scorchioness of today, but howz this for a perfect resolution to the franchise question…
Seeing as everything is on a spectrum these days, howzabowts “being Scottish” is too.
Aw the #NuScots can indeed be enfranchised and get a vote, but #SuperScots get two! ?
Pfffft! You’re not even trying.
If people are being allowed to self ID, it follows that people with multiple personality disorders – such as Dissociative identity disorder – should be allowed a vote for each personality, since each is a distinct entity with its own thoughts and opinions, even if they share a physical body.
(Obviously, these would have to be postal votes since there’s no guarantee when each personality would appear and not conventiently on polling day).
Therefore:
1. Go to your local doctor.
2. Do your best Roger Irrelevant impression.
3. Take letter from GP to your local returning officer, certifying:
“I can confirm this person on the voter’s roll is completely hatstand and needs to have the following personalities at the same address added to the roll:
Geoff The Parkie, Old Amos The Gamekeeper, Tamzin The Top Model, Gwyn Welsh, Calum Gilhooley, etc.”
Listen, if the bloody students can get away with having more than one vote at election times, can’t see why the rest of us can’t game the system too!
My 9.10 refers to a 2019 Agreement. The tweeter neglected to point that out.
Here’s the original WEF press release.
link to weforum.org
Scots Renewables @11.21pm.
The problem here is that Sturgeon wants to hold a pretendy indyref where in the event of yes winning (a major miracle in itself under Sturgeon’s tenure) nothing much would come of it in a legal sense.
Furthermore even if there were time to hold one next October which is very unlikely, no proper preparation has been done in advance, it would be ill-thought out and ill-prepared, in my opinion it would be a really flawed version of the 2014 indyref, quite honestly from what we know about Sturgeon now do we really want her anywhere near another indyref.
Doug,
The penny will be dropping with some now that the ‘can’t fail’ plan of embarrassing Boris Johnson into handing the SNP a Section 30 is in tatters, but wait, he could theoretically still do it.
That plan A has been that Westminster would have to sign off on an S30 because of embarrassment is embarrassing in itself but that so many people fell for it tells us how malleable the sheep are.
That Master Chief Sheep Kavanagh thought this was the best plan ever and convinced his flock that the Tories are really baaad but when it came to a Section 30, they would be really good and accommodating.
That we have a mindless mob of SNP supporters willing to believe the unbelievable is a major problem of the Yes movement.
Many people on here have reasons why they don’t trust the SNP with what they say or do about independence but because what they’ve said and done about independence among other things like gender ID, £600,000 to name a couple.
What reasons do the SNP faithful have for hating Alba and what they stand for?
If anyone can help me out with any answers, I would be grateful.
Is it because
Alex Salmond,
That Alba can define what a woman is,
That Alba can define what a man is,
That Alba are forcing the hand of the SNP regarding independence,
That Alba have ‘split’ the Yes movement,
That Alba have no right to try to muscle in on Scottish politics,
Or perhaps the simple reason they hate Alba is that they have been told to, baaa.
Million miles off topic…
link to bigthink.com
It’s a little bit scary, but at the same time, it’s a big wow for a kid who grew up watching Steve Austin and even Jim Phelps on Mission impossible.
What’s the world coming to when even the Science fiction looks tragically obsolete?
Ian Brotherhood , I see “empowerment of women” is one of their goals. How the hell can they do that if they can’t make their minds up what a woman is ?
@Scottrenewables
Interesting timing
Given the silver lining of last night’s confidence vote not being slim enough to be blamed on suspended MPs being unable to vote, and given the speed at which the minister/ government for fun/ union was able to instil confidence in most, if not all, who insisted it was hopelessly dishonest as recently as 10 days ago, it could yet be instructive to discover who the Supreme Court sides with in event that an extrapolation of Fatima’s easily demonstrated, yet possibly accidental, wider contribution* makes it into either submission.
ie that, curiously, substantiated truth is currently considered toxic at the administrative/ legislative level of governance by/for/of the (sovereign) people
Spoke to a maybe yes voter at work. Young guy 25. Should be a natural indi supporter.
He told me he finds it difficult to separate independence from Sturgeon. He knows he wouldn’t be endorsing her, but in his head he feels her presence when he would vote in a referendum. Said his mates are all the same, can’t stand her. Would be happier if Kate Forbes was in charge.
Not only is Sturgeon a stumbling block to getting a referendum. She is also a liability in the campaign. I think there are too many people who hate her enough to vote against independence.
She is a real problem for us!
Oh by the way. Sturgeon would shit her pants if the SP court said yes to a Section 30. Hopefully she will resign!
Big Jock @10.49am.
Sturgeon aside the power of the Britnat media is remarkable, it can get ex-pats living in Spain to vote for Brexit, ex-mining villages vote for the Tories, and Scots to vote for the continuation of the union.
That’s why unlike the Palestinians, the folk of Catalonia and even n a small enclave in Moldova, who have their own broadcasting channels, Broadcasting will never ever be devolved to Scotland, maybe one day it might with a barrel load of caveats in place.
Big Jock says:
19 July, 2022 at 10:49 am
Absolutely right. I also have spoken to soft no voters and they are completely put off by Sturgeon, enough not to vote for independence. They believe that if we get independence, it Will be SNP, and more importantly Sturgeon in charge years and years. I have tried telling them that after independence, maybe a couple of years, that the SNP will break where some msp’s will join a left wing part, another a right wing part, green etc. But they just can’t see it enough to vote for independence.
Some can’t even stand the sight of her or listen to her speak at all.
On the National’s UKSC story.
“This is not accurate. UKGov says UKSC should not entertain the reference. That point has not been decided: it has been parked, to be decided at the same time as the substantive argument. That is far from unusual, & doesn’t involve a “win” for either side. It’s merely procedural.”
link to twitter.com
Re my 11.02am comment.
The word “parked” being the operative word, now thoughts of the pretendy indyref next October should now be dismissed once and for all.
All eyes should now focus on the GE, unless there’s another way out of this rancid union before then.
@Republicofscotland
Probably teasing the poor judges & advocates directly involved*
UK government lawyers would be guilty of (although possibly protected from) gross negligence, and their paymasters misappropriation of public funds, if they spend the next 6 months reiterating an argument that is manifestly already lost
Similarly it would clearly be a criminal negligence from the Supreme Court if it were to overturn a decision to look at all the arguments, ONLY after having looked at all the arguments*
* Not impossible that parking catch all technicalities in procedure has been a winning strategy historically, especially in matters of wrong v right, but not remotely sustainable in an equal partnership where the authority vested in the court is as contentious, if not more so, as the dispute it has been asked to resolve.
«You shouldn’t feel regret for the life you haven’t tasted, but for the one you are about to have taken from you»
link to off-guardian.org
«The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by wimps»
Quotations from Thucydides
As bits of north Europe whinge about tens of thousands expiring (embrace that fear) in the summer heat, Scotland with its fresher climate may become the place to settle; no prize for guessing the sort likely to do the settling.
As if getting the Scots to shift their collective backsides on THE issue were not complicated enough.
Breastplate says:
19 July, 2022 at 9:54 am
“What reasons do the SNP faithful have for hating Alba and what they stand for?”
Some seem to believe that they are splitting the Yes vote – even when it was explained to them that voting for Alba on the Holyrood list would augment the indy vote they still see them as opposition to their beloved SNP. Many happy though to give the Greens a list vote. I don;t get it either.
Regards the devolved government,
It has been obvious for a quite while, that the devolved government was never set up to help or aid the Scots, but rather to MANAGE the Scots and DETER any moves forward they wish to make as a nation,
I have been calling it a branch office of Westminster for a long period. Hatuey’s description of it being nothing but a Wendy house is perhaps more eloquently appropriate.
Descriptive joking aside, it is obvious how trying to gain Scottish independence through these doors is set up to deliberately fail us,
The question of Scottish sovereignty cannot be held to account through a devolved government from Westminster, as Westminster claims it is sovereign as a parliament, that makes it sovereign over the the devolved government in Scotland, slipping its sovereignty in through the back door of Scotland.
While an oath is taken to be under the crown when entering the Scottish devolved parliament.
Placing Monarchy above Sovereign Scots.
Any action the devolved government takes cannot And will not legally work for all Scots, it changes Scots law of Sovereignty lying with the Scottish people.
The Wendy house is how the Scots are managed by Westminster.
We need THE SOVEREIGN SCOT PEOPLES ASSEMBLY, set up now To actually represent the Sovereign Scots.
James Che
Sovereignty is the magic answer yet again. Together with the fabled Grand Scottish Peoples Assembly.
Remind us again who appoints people to the Assembly! Do the voters get a choice? What will the Assembly actually do? How will it work in relation to the Government of the day, who I’m sure will be delighted to have someone scrutinising them-not that they do not need a high level of scrutinising!
Another level of politicians costing us a fortune-the public will be up for that I am sure.
More desperate airy fairy stuff from the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade.
It might be a radical concept but I sometimes think that it may be simpler, cheaper and more effective to convince people to put an X on a ballot paper. Nobody seems very keen in trying this. Maybe I am wrong?
Wee Chid,
Yes, I’m finding it extremely difficult to get into the heads of Alba hating SNP supporters.
I get why the SNP MPs, MSPs, councillors and family members thereof don’t want another party evicting their snouts from the governmental and financially beneficial swill bucket but the ordinary supporters.
I’m not perplexed that there are Alba hating SNP Supporters but that there are Alba hating SNP supporters with no good reason to hate Alba.
Yes Wee Chid, I really can’t take the Green Party seriously.
The issue of a Constitutional Sovereign Scots Peoples Assembly cannot wait to be gathered together long term or until after the Supreme court has decided the final blow to remove the last vestages of our Sovereignty in Scotland.
Those that think it takes time to set this up, are going to have to take a leap of faith with Scottish Constitution and Claim of Right, of sovereign Scots to choose a new governance that suits the Scots, before NS and the devolved westminster government entangle it into the laws of England further.
Time and timing is the master here.
Chas,
I think you’ll find that relying on logic to convince turkeys who have already voted for Xmas may be futile.
It will be extremely difficult to counter an illogical person using logic.
Faith and reason would not be considered frequent bedfellows.
Regarding a Grand Assembly, Craig Murray has covered this already. Have you not read it?
Breastplate.
And there are those of us in neither party
that hate the deceit and wokerarty of the present Snp, taking away privacy of our children and women in safe spaces, not recognising what a women is, at the same time on the other side of their mouths saying they are all for womens rights,
Missing unaccountable funds given by the grass roots movement, there are plenty of issues and reasons not to go blindly along with the new metamorphed Snp. Court cases that should not have happened primarily against people wishing Scottish independence that have spoken up.
On the other hand Alba are playing the typical politician in a party looking for a spot or niche.
Playing by the same rules as westminster and NS, and willing to enter the Wendy house to a unfair mechcanism for Sovereign Scots that places monarchy and westminster above our sovereignty.
The right way to go down the wrong path.
Neither side are have a grasp on how serious
Breastplate
No I have not read it. In my mind the last thing Scotland needs is yet another level of jumped up Toon Cooncillors drawing excessive salaries with almost unlimited expenses.
Will the proposed assembly sit above or below the SG? If above it will never happen. If below, what is the point?
Breastplate.
I ignore those that try incite, while attempting to glean any new infomation or ideas so they can be one step ahead to try block that direction of travel, thanks any way.
The new feeling I am getting on the ground when speaking to people here, is that they are fed up with all the politician’s games, the long windedness, the take a long journey around the edge of the loch scenario, the wait and see what happens next year, as it may lead to another date promised for the following year or maybe in 2026.
In my time I have leafleted for the SNP and for Alba. I was even going to stand for the council election by suggestions from Alba leaders until my partner was diagnosed with cancer.
Now I am glad I did not, although very important small issues are not the way forward at this moment in time.they can be sorted by us as soon as we are independent.
The focus should be on breaking away quickly from the union with a Scottish Constitution in place, The politics of the day placed before us are meant to keep us occupied else where.
As often said in Holyrude, the Snp should be getting on with their day job, ( of running Scotland on Englands behalf)
Alba are following the same template.
Enough is enough.
Joji will be weeping into her wee woke hankie now her favourite for Tory leader is oot da windae
“What reasons do the SNP faithful have for hating Alba and what they stand for?”
I’d say that they believe Sturgeon can do no wrong and they also believe she will lead Scotland out of this union, the troughers and the woke faction now control the layers under the hierarchy, all publicly profess to wanting an independent Scotland, delivering it is another matter.
The Alba party poses a threat to Sturgeon, her troughers and the the power of the woke faction within the SNP by actually wanting an independent Scotland, and not being afraid to what a woman is or defend their rights. Sturgeon lambasts this, and her (unaware of her machinations) followers back this up on social media.
If it were up to me I’d sack the troughers and clear out the wokies in the SNP, independence hasn’t moved one step closer under Sturgeon’s tenure since 2014, it could be argued its gone backwards with the betrayer at the helm. She needs to be booted out of the party and Alex Salmond welcomed back in the it will be game on.
@Republicofscotland 3:27pm
Agreed. Salmond rejoining the SNP fold is a game changer. I never heard anyone criticise the competence of the Scottish Government under Salmond. I believe the Scottish National Health Service is important to the Scottish people. But there is no mechanism to replace the current SNP leader. The only criticism I have heard is from Blackford “Pull yer socks up”. Unfortunately the SNHS is disintegrating while the SNP commit to tangential issues. The people of Scotland have to commit to never forgive the SNP for dismantling the SNHS. A long recovery road back. The solutions are available at least in mitigation. Why? Because wimmin have no penises?. Absolute madness.
James Che,
Alba aren’t in any position to do anything wrong.
There may come a time when that isn’t the case, if that time does come, it will probably be because the SNP have fallen asleep at the independence wheel.
I understand the sovereignty of the Scots argument but it’s part of the solution not all of it, there is no deus ex machina when it comes to getting normal statehood again, it will be a process.
In my opinion, of course.
George Ferguson,
I am not sure how much of the SNHS and all the politics that surrond it are in Scotlands hands,
The eye opener for me was when Boris Johnstone took £65 million which was part of Scotland health budget to give to that country we are not allowed to talk about,
With the premise westminster can take it before we give you it or afterwards, either way it will come from Scotlands future health care.
He did the same to Wales although not so much financially.
Still laughing at the new high speed railway for England HS2 that is going to make the North of England a World Powerhouse.
London business’ will be able to get up there quicker to take their money back down South.
Well some of the areas it’s promised to have been deleted from the plans so they can take a run and jump before boarding a train.
Nothing going faster than the number of Billions it’s going to take to part build it.
And now, the height of Summer we can see this speedy train restricted to 30mph as the track
might buckle. It should only take 7 hours by train on sunny days or 4 by Car.
Tory leader candidate Mordaunt is going to see the North of England levelled up if she gets the job.
What does she mean Boris and Gove have failed and broken promises.
Thank goodness Scotland is in North England or we might get nothing.
RepublicofScotland,
Yes, I agree, I know there are many reasons why independence supporters do hate Alba, but I was wondering if anybody had heard any logical reasons for doing so?
It’s like they’re hanging on to the ‘ghost of SNP past’ and they are incapable of seeing reality.
How long did it take for the Scottish public to see what Labour in Scotland were really doing and drop them like the sack of shit they are?
Some people never stopped believing in the Scottish branch, how delusional must they be?
We still have the Nicophants as you say, who can see her do no wrong, how long will they deny reality?
They believe we are in the wrong in looking elsewhere for an independence vehicle.
They truly believe that Nicola van pelt will let Charlie Public kick the ball this time and that we’re fools for not believing.
How do you fight the levels of delusion that believed Boris would have no option but to hand Sturgeon an S30, see it fall to pieces in front of their eyes and yet seamlessly move on to the next plan without acknowledging that Operation Embarrassment was a complete and utter non starter of a shit plan?
Not a fucking peep from Kavanagh who supported the plan up to the hilt and assured me and anybody that would listen that it couldn’t fail even though it was pointed out to him that it could and would.
We’ve seen the old SNP turn into the NewSNP, when are the rest of them going to wake up to the party that sides with the Unionists against Alba?
Why is it important for them to hate Alba?
I suppose I’m answering my own question when it seems emotion is what’s driving them.
Emotional attachment to anything or anyone will negate logic all day long.
@James Che 4:54pm
The problems with the SNHS were building up almost a decade ago. I could plot you a graph of when strategic and operational decisions were made to our current predicament. Guess what one name keeps recurring as health secretary and first minister. A zero prize for guessing who?. SNHS is devolved, completely in our hands. We only have our ourselves to blame for allowing the lack of public scrutiny. That will change as the public anger arises. Let’s prove the case.
London is burning quite literally. They have no wind, no water. The worst pollution in Europe. Soon it will become uninhabitable.
Those millionaires will all be looking to move north of Lancashire. Migration is going to happen whether we like it or not. Its a problem pre independence, because they could stop it. Not so much a problem after. Because Scotland the sleeping giant of Europe will need more people.
The issue is now one of time. We only have a few years left to get independence. Otherwise UK migration will scupper it.
Breastplate.
The Snp are already asleep at the independence wheel, and obviously are ignoring how people feel,
Back reading all comments is a good clue, no offence meant to you personally.
The Sovereignty of the Scots is not a back plate burner,
It is part of the treaty of the union. It should be on the front plate,
What NS and is doing is burying it in a spaghetti of English laws over, Scots law, which by the way is Constitutional and wrote into the treaty of the union.
We either in Scotland and England accept the treaty is legally binding in wording to hold england and scotland to that treaty or, we do as Westminster parliament seems to be doing and ignore it as nothing more than a few obsolete word smithing promises, out of date on a piece of parchment.
When I have read and re- read the treaty over and over again since 2013/14 to present date I can not find any legal documentation that gives entry to all Scots into that treaty, and find it suspicious that Scottish politicians do not mention this.
The icing on the cake is in 2022 the UK parliament site admit they did not ask the Scots to vote to join, even although they had discussed wether the english parliament should ask the Scots in 1707.
Even If you are to take the treaty of the union 1707 as a given legally binding piece of valuable parchment that holds water 300 years later today, The Scottish Sovereign “Claim of Right” wrote into that said treaty immediately frees the Scots when ever they choose.
The legal shinanigans that the Snp are playing is false. As all the politicians are playing the long game to keep themselves in positions of financial stability.
At this moment I am watching all Scottish politcians taking the long route covered with obstacles around the loch, while there is a fine big boat sitting on the shore,
Yes the weather may turn and the waters may get rough, but as with all boats they have a cabin for shelter or a harbour to pull into,
It is no more dangerous than those walking along the shore whom may never reach the other side or find shelter.
Where is the grit and determination to get this done.
We are being led by people wishing to avoid the nub of Scottish Constitution as Wrote into the Pseudo 1707 treaty
One or the other has legal context, it cannot be both.
The most frustrating thing is that Sturgeon can point the finger of blame at Westminster for Scotland still being tied to the union, she has the luxury of saying I tried to get Scotland out of the union but the UK government and the UKSC stopped me, she’ll then be lauded by her supporters even more.
Alex Salmond took us from the low 20% to 45% on the indyfront, since his departure yes has moved backwards instead of forwards even though Brexit provide an open goal for Scottish independence. Since 2014 Sturgeon has kicked indy into the long grass and set about pushing her own agenda and building her reputation, and in the process she split the indy movement, and punished (via the COPFS) those that have had the audacity to point out her machinations, she and her lieutenants along with her fanzine the National newspaper, and a few Sturgeonista websites have been dangling the indy carrot for years to make a profit, I’m surprised more indy minded folk haven’t cottoned on to this.
I’m sorry but we’re going nowhere until Sturgeon is kicked out of office, the longer she squats in Bute House the greater the damage to Scotland will be. As for those spineless and gutless MSPs who see exactly what Sturgeon has done and is doing to the country, yet they keep their mouths shut and their snouts jammed firmly into the taxpayers trough, I say shame on the lot of you, you lot have no honour, no credibility, and no respect for the county that elected you.
George Ferguson.
I totally agree with what you state, in fact their is only a tiny bit you left out.
As our nhs’s collapse across britian, the Scottish one wether devolved or not run correctly is not always the issue, it has no initial say what funding shall come from westminster to Scotland,
Supposing it had been running according to plan, and you gave all the stats you could, that would not cover the fact You would suddenly be £65 million short of cash for health Scotland as Westminster had withheld that money raised from our taxes.
@James Che 6:06pm
James there was a 435 million underspend of the Scottish budget which is why there was a clawback of 65 million. Kate Forbes agreed. I am talking about the lack of pastoral care for our Doctors and nurses. And the stupid unbelievable rotas they have to work. Would you like to work 7 nights in a row of 12 hours plus. Get one day off and then work day shift?. The Scottish Public have been spared the details. Unsustainable is the watch word but Humza has delivered, he has declared a cap on unsustainable rotas from August 3rd
which is absolutely undeliverable. He would be better served by questioning the decisions of his boss. Real time data coming up but don’t expect to hear the truth on the BBC. It’s too hot to do the analysis and plot the graph showing accountability. For the future.
Republicofscotland.
Cannot dispute what you say, except maybe extending that further. We are not stuck with NS,
If you believe in the 1707 treaty of the union?
“The Claim of right” the Scots can choose a new government that suits them,
It Does not say when,
It Does not say how,
It Does not say whom is to do it, other than Scots.
It Does not say it has to be done through devolved government.
It does not say that Westminster decides the issue or frachise
It does not say the supreme court decides the Scots issue under the The Claim of Right,
It does not say the Scots under the Claim of Right have to consider the articles of the Treaty of the union before they cchoose a new goverment.
It does not say the Scots have to have consent of the monarchy.
In fact it has so much bl..dy leigh way under the the specific writings in the 1707 treaty of union without clauses.
The only question I have, Is which Scots have that “Claim of Right” ?
The ones that were not invited to vote to join the treaty of the union?
Or all Scots?
George Ferguson.
I have close family members that work in the SNHS, and other NHS across britain its very bad indeed, but from what I can gather it is the same across the borders into england and Wales.
The snp are doing a awful job of it, they are no better than the rest of britain where doctors are threatening to go on strike.
And there should be no claw back from westminster , on the money allocated from the Scottish tax payers sent down to Westminster to fund these things in Scotland in the first instance, it should be saved finances to to fund future emergancies in the SNHS.
James Che
I agree the Claim of Right is a powerful tool for the people of Scotland, tell me this James have you seen Sturgeon on the tv pushing the idea of using it? I haven’t I’ve seen Salmond mention it, but he’s in a Britnat media blackout.
Yes the Claim of Right can be used but who will be our figurehead to wield it on our behalf, I’d wager half of Scots don’t even know that it exists or what it represents.
If Joe Bloggs on the corner of Sauchiehall street in Glasgow said to the masses lets rise up and use the Claim of Right and be done with this union, do you think the masses would rise up or scratch their heads and go about their business, like I said the Britnat media controls very tightly who can say what.
Also many Scots have become so apathetic its like they just accept whatever Westminster dishes out to Scotland three-hundred plus years of a colonial mindset will do that to folk.
The Claim of Right is a useful tool, but who has the charisma, the clout, to stir the will of a nation into action, it cannot be Sturgeon she’s done much damage to Scotland is the last eight years she’s managed to split the yes movement, a great victory for Westminster.
RE. NHS Scotland funding. Anybody know how much this Pride Badge initiative cost to rollout?
And were those “According to Stonewall Scotland” stats on the page not questionable?
link to careers.nhs.scot
Scotland in general.
How can anyone possible think that Scotland can be a prosperous successful country whilst we’re in this union, how can Scotland grow and prosper when its government (I mean in general if our government was good one) can’t control all the areas of government that all sovereign independent nations take for granted, it just can’t its impossible.
Every sovereign nation uses its assets to the benefit of it nation and people, they do not give half their money away to a foreign nation, they don’t worry about stepping on the toes (reserved matters) of a foreign nation when making laws, trade deals and treaties. Nor do they fret over a foreign governments unelected politicians making policy for them.
Scotland is assets rich, oil, gas wave and water technologies and ample wind power our seas are teeming with fish, and our population is fairly well educated, so why is their so much poverty, homelessness, substance abuse, unemployment, illness among relatively young people, and a general feeling of apathy among its population.
If a good government is in place in an independent Scotland with all its levers of power, and access to all its assets, I’ve no doubt progress can be made in these and other areas of what ails society. Scottish independence will go a long way to crushing the Scottish Cringe, and it will instill a bit ore pride in the nation, when event like the Olympics comes around, it could eventually spark interest in the public of who they are and what their country’s history is, but first we desperately need independence.
There is no case for the union, Westminster knows this fine well, it doesn’t want a small prosperous assets rich country on its doorstep that it cannot control.
Quite a stark 10 min vid clip by Martin Lewis re. energy prices and what’s coming down the line. Even mention of wide scale protest through non-payment of bills.
It may wake a few folk up.
link to twitter.com
James Che,
Perhaps I was a bit clumsy with my comment.
I understand the SNP are asleep at the wheel, what I was trying to figure out was why do other SNP independence supporters not see this?
Pretty much everyone here used to be SNP supporters.
We stopped being SNP supporters because we thought the SNP were taking the piss regards self determination. We have ample evidence of this.
Not only that but the SNP independence supporters are so in thrall to their party that they hate Alba more than any Unionist party.
Why is this?
I agree the SNP haven’t been doing their job regarding independence, my point was trying to find out why they have supporters that think they have been doing their job regarding independence and some think they have been doing a rather good job in this respect.
Rev Stu had worked out a while ago how long Labour were telling everyone that they would dismantle the House of Lords, I can’t remember exactly but I think it was about 100 years.
How delusional are we as a population?
Are these SNP supporters Nicola Sturgeon supporters only, are they SNP supporters only or is it both?
Will change of leadership have a change of tack for independence, less compliant, more compliant or just the same?
Will they still hate Alba for making them look at themselves in the mirror?
P.S.
I try to read everybody’s comments no matter how inane some believe them to be.
Someone should hold a mirror up to the Tory candidates for PM
They all seem to have been suddenly converted to good honest people, but do their voting records confirm that?
Did the committees they sat on actually achieve anything ?
Nice to see that some of the founder members of the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade are back on. Do they EVER do anything else? Lots of emotive words, mutual back slapping and hundreds of year old history.
Unfortunately nothing on how Independence will be achieved other than by the mystical, magical route. It all gets rather boring when you have read the same stuff for the Eight Hundred and sixty third time.
Keeps them off the streets I suppose.
Dan,
It was an article or documentary in the 90s I think that the author or presenter was explaining that the Domesday book was an inventory of the land disguised as a census.
Whoever held power over the people at the time whether they were kings, queens or lords always had trouble knowing how much to tax the plebs without uprisings.
The last thing they wanted was a mob at their door demanding what was theirs and burning their castles to the ground with them in it.
But with the Domesday inventory they could assess the wealth of the people to tax (steal) them accordingly, not too much to have a rebellion and not too little that they became unruly.
We still have the same measures today with the odd tyrant getting too greedy for his own good, bloody uppity natives.
US assisted regime change is another beast altogether.
Republicof scotland.
You’re absolutely correct, she and the snp have taken a position at least two miles wide of it either side.
I raised the topic with Alex before the last election, as no one seemed to be aware to much exactly how useful it is, even as a last resort after everyone in Scotland suffers an energy crises this winter and they cannot get fuel for their vehicles.while councils take a high percentage of your money for council tax but do less for your buck,
Oh I have the anger and the ideas, not to sure about the charisma though,
Having said that when I look around, at our politicians no one else is filling those shoes either.
They have a choice, to be another mediocre politician that no one will have heard of a few years down the line,
Or they could be spoken about and remembered in history for hundreds of years.
I need a bahookie to kick start some life into.
Breastplate.
I am a bit quick in reaction to though at the ineptness of Scottish politicians all across the board, so my apologise Breastplate,
it leaves me fuming that their is not a brave heart shared between the lot of them, or even to take it in turns, no umph,
Politicians seem to only think like politicians on a track going one way, no sidings. Brain trained to not rock the boat, to follow the road that leads to the great carrot in the Sky.
If I were to wonder why there are so many blinded snp, I would suggest following the pay packets and perks.each one has written on the outside protected status and esteem bought just to you in your pay packet.
Looking after the Sovereign Scots as a nation and race of people they can not identify with any more than they can a women.
Ian Murrey.
Occasionally I have seen the Tories thingy ma bob on telly.
It reminds me of the X factor contestants all without the X factor.
Or better still ” Who’s line is it”
A televised Game show, with a bunch of bad actors 😉
Dan @ 8pm
Stark is the word. Hundreds of thousands of households are going to be getting their electricity cut off as we go into the winter. They won’t even get to see the lies the BBC pumps out telling us all to grin and bear it (like we did during the war), most people without electricity are drug and alcohol abusers, etc., etc.
In Scotland though, the mood is going to be slightly more interesting. Unlike the rest of the UK, Scotland is energy rich and produces more electricity, oil, and gas than it needs.
Alba should hopefully be preparing for this. And it should pledge to nationalise electricity and make sure no household ever goes without. If that isn’t what independence is all about, then what is it about?
has anyone who got one put into moderation actually seen it come back out in a reasonable timescale?
– just lost one there. No idea why. No personal abuse.
I think I still have one in from 2021.
Why don’t we “convince” the English public to do the independence heavy lifting instead of Scots – a Wings Over England-type website, with articles telling them – over and over – how much they subsidise us etc etc ad nauseam… Many think that anyway. Pandering to their prejudices. Thoughts?
Confused,as far as I know they don’t ever come out of moderation… you never know why but half the time I’m glad they don’t see the light of day.
Good plan, DJ. Maybe we could do a loads-a-money type video, rub their noses in all the extra cash we get handed to us…
Franchise
Just testin’
DJ says:
20 July, 2022 at 12:28 am
Why don’t we “convince” the English public to do the independence heavy lifting instead of Scots
link to archive.ph
“Why England should leave the UK and declare an English secession”
What currency will they use ?
Will they get a S30?. 🙂
@ DJ
Re. Promoting English independence to get them away from us useless Jocks, I recall suggesting something similar a couple of years back.
#AlfGarnettConsequentials
Ah, but would the “international community” recognise and except England voting for its independence using their usual nativist electoral franchise…
@ Rev: please bin my query at 7.47! I can’t see any reference to the subject anywhere!
@Ruby
If they have a defacto referendum, will Macron and Le Pen be allowed to stand candidates?
If not, and the French stood candidates anyway, would votes for these candidates count towards returning England to the EU – or would they be ignored?
Alternatively, how many seats would the French need to win to own all England – or earn a deserved EFU.. same question for candidates with links to Russia & Rwanda (ERR?), Ireland, Eritrea, Israel, Ottawa (EIEIO), etc
That Martin Lewis clip is quite something.
I wonder how soon into the squeeze will the English MP’s start informing their electorate, that if Scotland gets Indy, their situation will be made even worse….
Our Indy Leaders need to act now, and tell the English Electorate that we will supply our Oil, Gas and Electorate to them, as we do now, but at a reasonable price, on the provision that they get their Politicians to sort out the Robber Barron Energy Firms and pass on the discount to the customers.
That would be a win, win for the people of both countries. We would finally get paid for our product, and they would get the same supply but at a capped price.
If we don’t do this, if it gets to being riots in the English cities, you can bet the forward planning is already in place to use that as an excuse to steal Scotland’s water to aleviate the pressure.
James Che says:
19 July, 2022 at 10:32 pm
Breastplate.
I am a bit quick in reaction to though at the ineptness of Scottish politicians all across the board, so my apologise Breastplate,
it leaves me fuming that their is not a brave heart shared between the lot of them…
I’m not disagreeing with you, but the problem isn’t just confined to Scotland.
You needn’t look further than the jellyfish lining up to be the next UK Prime Minister, and that’s AFTER Theresa May was the best of a bad lot, and she stood head and shoulders above the farcical Boris Johnson.
The USA is following a Trump with a Biden, and I’m sorry, but the man is struggling with senility. He should be sitting on a porch in a rocking chair somewhere, and truthfully I think if offered the chance, he’d jump at it.
Europe seems to be struggling for heavyweights too, because they’ve shrunk back from defying American Trans Atlantic Trade Deals to suddenly become war dogs for NATO in the USA’s proxy war with Ruskia; a war which itself features a comedian turning his hand to politics. What could possibly go wrong? … Oh.
I suspect it’s no coincidence that governments who dumb themselves down, encourage a dependency on warmongering lobbyists to line their pockets, suddenly find themselves at the end of a leash held by basket case sociopaths like the American Gun Lobby, the well funded Transgender delinquents, or the Pirates and Privateers in Banking and Finance. The US Bible Belt seems to be flexing it’s anti abortion muscles too. The best integrity money can buy.
Right now, and yes, it’s a little uncomfortable to think how it might end, but right now, I think the only politician on top of his game is our Vlad P, ably supported by Sergey Lavrov. I’m not a mouthpiece for him, but it “seems” he’s in total command of events.
Lavrov in particular must be rubbing his eyes in disbelief that Liz Truss is still in the running for PM, and he’ll be rubbing his hands if she wins.
Whichever way you look at it, the West has a MASSIVE problem with an increasingly dysfunctional system of government. Our bottom feeders are making it to the top.
I have strong suspicions that BRICS is here to stay, and it looks lean and fit compared to a bloated and complacent American dollar, and a Euro which has lunged to the right and looks more and more like America’s poodle.
We’re apparently now signed up to a UK / Australian Trade Deal, which nobody can really tell you anything about, while Westminster quite literally opens the taps in Scotland, to plunder more resource while the going’s good.
Scotland actually has some decent Politicos, but unfortunately, none but two of them are in power, and whenever any actual talent shows up the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the State sponsored charlatans, the State sponsored propagandists and Lobbyists do their level best to destroy their competition.
Roddy MacLeod absolutely hits the nail on the head with this…
link to barrheadboy.com
Poignant question for all YESSERS warming to SALVO, and a Constitutional Claim of Right approach, do we actually need or want the dysfunctional SNP on board? How do we assess their capacity to jeopardise everything we’re working towards the way they’ve screwed up everything else?
How I dearly wish Agent Sturgeon would simply
fuck offdisappear, but clearly she intends to milk this situation to its ignominious end.DJ @12.28.
No doubt the English public would be all for it, in their eyes dumping a poor region (Scotland) and stop the Jocks whinging once and for all would get a big percentage of the vote I think.
However no English government would ever allow such a vote for they know that the loss of Scottish assets and access to its land mass to house nukes and to store the likes of nuclear waste etc and would deeply diminish the Chancellors coffers into the bargain.
Incidentally, for those feeling less than optimistic…
Speaking to some of my neighbours yesterday. They voted Yes last time out, but it was backed up with a sort of ‘oh, wouldn’t it be nice, if only’ attitude.
Speaking to them yesterday, the attitude was, ‘Definitely, we’ve got to get this done’.
Once again it’s not a change that will show up – yet – in the polls, but it is a change.
Now you multiply that attitude (and I use the word attitude as the French would – to describe posture AND mindset) with every person they meet… the ‘if only/wouldn’t it be nice’ attitude is timid and pleading…. the ‘definitely/ let’s get this done’ attitude exudes confidence, determination and a ‘don’t mess with me’ air.
We are going to win folks.
In the three hundred years of the, colonialism by the backdoor, Union, Scotland’s sense of intrinsic «worth» has certainly depleted.
The ease of the familiar, the comfortable socio-cultural routine makes of the idea of independence an existential threat. England may be a corrupt, feudal, Norman fiefdom, plutocratic and oligarchic but we could have a worse «boss». We could be running things ourselves and there are some Scots you just cannot abide. This system keeps those buggers in check.
The identitarian cock up represented by the SNP’s social engineering adventurism is totemic in that regard.
How many Scots do you need to change a light bulb? Three, one to climb the ladder, one to kick it away, one to send for an Englishman to referee the fight.
Dear oh dear what a stushie there is now in London.
The fires, have most certainly caused a tad of agitation. But tragic as they are, does anyone really care. We are at war training and arming against Russia, we are at economic war, whilst in reality nothing is being done to reduce climate change.
Well warned for years of the impacts of ever carbon emissions the big corporates are pumping more oil than ever before. So who cares. Fires like this and devastation like this we will just have to get used to.
There’s money to be made. So hard luck. Yes, they’ll be squeals but that’s all. And maybe bear this in mind. As the country lurches along with a zombie government and a Tory party ripping each others guts out fighting to be leader, the current Prime Minister, the Great Brexit Balloon takes time off to host Checkers parties and then go on a gas guzzling RAF fighter jet jolly.
Enjoy the fires London. It’s England’s Glory
Taylor
@dtaylor5633
·
Jul 19
On Arran there are approximately 800 houses that are classed as “second homes”
On Skye that number is also around 20% with many more AirB&Bs
No wonder folk can’t find affordable housing
Can anyone confirm if those stats are accurate?
Have just read the thread below that tweet.
The ‘second-home’ issue is a problem.
A big problem.
link to twitter.com
To Everyone: the Claim of Right is a solid base for restoring Scotland as a nation-state. It is recognised by all Scots and by Westminster – it cannot be un-recognised.
Salvo.scot are proving that the Union depends on the continued existence of the Claim of Right [and England’s Bill of Rights]. So it is a powerful tool.
To make this tool work for us, and quickly, it needs evidence of mass support. All you need to do right now is SIGN the Declaration on Salvo.scot – it is the “Join” button at the top of their screen [there is no fee!].
The second thing to do is attend if you possibly can the SSRG conference that begins on 29th July in Dunfermline. It is vital that it can be shown how strong the support for action is.
From that same thread:
The BBC in Scotland text service was promoting the story yesterday of the Supreme Court wanting to hear all the arguments in the indy debate, from both sides, before making a judgement.
Translated this really means they’re wanting to be seen as hearing well-paid representatives waffle their cases before they throw the case out. To throw it out immediately, before hearing anyone, would not be a good look and would send out another very strong case for taking back our right to self-determination.
Talk about going through the motions? If anyone even thinks England’s top Court is going to make a “judgement” in favour of anyone other than the Unionists then i’m so sorry, there isn’t any hope left for you, i can’t help you. I would love to be proved wrong but i’ll not be holding my breath.
———-
The BBC in Scotland text service also reporting yesterday that Scotland’s new record temperature is now 34.8 degrees. A record set in the Scottish Borders replacing a previous record set in the Scottish Borders. In my part of the Scottish Borders the temperature sat at 36 degrees for most of the afternoon. Good old reliable ‘Aunty’, we can always rely on her to produce seriously questionable data.
———-
As for the article at the top of this thread, good to see Rev taking action against her (as stated in the btl comments). Anyone living in her constituency should also lodge formal complaints against her. Bullshitters such as Cllr Fatima Jobbie need to be taught the importance of why you should never bring a water pistol to a gunfight.
I suppose it’s too simplistic to suggest we start putting CFCs back in hairspray to bring global temperatures down…
DJ @12.28.
No doubt the English public would be all for it, in their eyes dumping a poor region (Scotland) and stop the Jocks whinging once and for all would get a big percentage of the vote I think.
Weird that they keep voting for parties who want to keep Scotland in the Union. If there was a party that threatened to take votes from the ‘Unionist parties’ they would soon change their tune about Scottish Independence.
Maybe during the upcoming ‘Winter of Discontent’ the English electorate may turn to ‘The English Democrats’ & Peter Hichins.
‘The English Democrats’ are hated by Unionist parties they refer to them as ‘Little Englanders’.
I expect that’s what they called ‘UKIP’ but then look what happened.
link to englishdemocrats.party
The English Democrats are currently running the above petition.
I would think there are definitely votes to be won in England by a non Unionist party.
Unless it’s true what Ed Milliband said about the English electorate that they never complain.
They just lie back & think of England while reciting the mantra
Mustn’t grumble!
The Battle for territory in the Union continues as the Scots have apparently now taken Darlington!
link to twitter.com
Ian Brotherhood says:
20 July, 2022 at 10:16 am
Have just read the thread below that tweet.
The ‘second-home’ issue is a problem.
A big problem.
link to twitter.com
I’d call that more than a problem – a downright bloody outrage is nearer the mark.
And what are the SNP doing about it?
Breeks.
Leaders world wide are bottom barrel dregs , except for the two you mentioned, it occurs to me the training and placing of puppets at the head of countries working towards one world order in this hemisphere for the great reset of our countries and cultures, may actually be their own down fall.
When stupid leaders are needed so they can be controlled, in which I believe Westminster has many along with the devolved government In Scotland.
The penny drops for even slow to learn people that We are not actually fighting the leader placed of our country, but a bigger entity behind the scences.
This being the case we can observe the easy manipulations of NS with the snp, and the rest of UK, NS and monarchy, bill gates, clintons, and other eptsteins pals behind closed doors, playing good cop bad cop to an audience of citizens.
The planned collapse of economies for ID identifcation for food, fuel, housing and travel control rationing can be read about, and viewed as many times as you wish, any time, any where, it is no longer hidden by them nor classed as a conspiracy theory when it is on video and filmed by themselves, covering their meetings.and put out there in preperation.
How these UNELECTED wealthy people are funding and lobbying our governments to buy their loyalty tell us why NS follows the wokery world in tamdum with every other puppet leader,
The devolved government will not be our way forward,
If Arran is at all typical, the claim that 800 houses are ‘second homes’ is extraordinary considering the size of the population.
This is as close to official ‘verification’ as I can find but it’s well out of date (2011) and it doesn’t help establish what % of the available accommodation is in the hands of holidaymakers or Airbnbers.
If Lenny Hartley happens to see this, can you shed any further light on it all?
link to populationdata.org.uk
Much as second homes are indeed an issue, best not forget about the matter of young and old Scots trying to find a first home in certain areas.
Over 200k now for a pokey wee, poorly insulated cottage with garden the size of a postage stamp around my way now.
A neighbour has recently sold up and got 70k more than they paid for it 5 yeas ago…
A while back folk wanted and the mortgage lender would require a structural survey of a property to ensure the property was sound before both committing to its purchase. That seems out the window now with a simple home report valuation, as folk are paying way over valuation just to get the property, and anyone that attempts to haggle down the price because say the roof or chimney is fucked is just ignored because some aren’t bothered about such trivial things.
The devolved government is a captured fort, and the leaders inside have already surrendered.
Ian Brotherhood,
Dan,
This why the welsh started burning down the holiday homes in the seventies,
The houses that should have been available to locals as housing stock was being sold for very high prices above their finances from one holiday home owner to another holiday home owner, by passing locals.
It was a eerie scenario to pass these houses , flames stretching into the night sky, or standing looking at the smoke smouldering ruinous rubble the next morning,
I always thought that that may happen in Scotland one day, when locals have had enough of being priced out of their country.
James Che , I remember either on Not the Nine O’Clock News or That was the Week That Was saying ‘ Want to come home to a living fire , buy a cottage in Wales”
Iain they reckon its nearer 40% on Arran. I’ve been going there for the best part of 50 years and in times gone by it seemed a helluva lot of folk from Leeds like the island. It is also accessible – depending on CalMac which as ever is NOT dependable.
As a P.S to that, two neighbours have just sold on the island and no islanders could afford either property.
James Che @1.33pm.
The SNP under Sturgeon doesn’t give a monkeys, one can only speculate how much more damage Sturgeon will do to Scotland before we boot her out of Bute House. Its the Highland and in some areas the Lowland Clearances all over again without the spilling of blood, as young Scots need to leave areas they’ve lived in or worked in all their lives to find a home.
The real enemy of Scots is the treacherous b*stards at the SNP.
@Dorothy Devine (1.53) –
To be clear that I’m understanding you correctly – 40% of the properties on Arran are classed as ‘second homes’?
It is sad that houses often built by the hands of locals in all weather conditions for the future of their children and grandchildren are the taken out off their hands through the downward spiral of the local economy, while certain parts of Britain thrive enough to buy two houses,
Wales are recently starting to tackle this problem through taxation on second properties. And Scotland needs to follow in taxation,
The land tax for Scotland wax wrote into the treaty of the union articles, NS should not need to pass much legislation at all to make this happen, but then again she doe not work for Scotland or the Scots.
@ Dan, Dorothy D, Ian B and all: have you considered signing up to Salvo’s declaration?
Sarah,
I would advise anybody to sign up to Salvo.
If anyone has a second or third home, they should do it 2 or 3 times 😉
@ Breastplate: We wouldn’t want to falsify the data – would we?
Ian and Co, im not surprised by the figure quoted of 800 holiday homes on Arran.
About 15 years ago a mate did a survey of the Shiskine Valley area which is pretty rural and he reckoned that 100 properties were Holiday homes. IN one famous case the pub run by ex fm jack mcconnels father was put on the market, the holiday home owner next door bought it and demolished it as he did not like the noise of people enjoying themself on the two weeks a year he used his property.These should not be confused by homes occupied by “White Settlers” Holiday homes are in the main owned by middle class Professional Wegies who fill their motors up with fuel and messages on the mainland before they come down for a couple of weeks. MAny also double up as holiday lets when their owner isnt using them .
Arran has since the War and probably before a bolt hole for Middle Class Professionals , but they used to rent part of the property from a “Local” and the “local would move into the back house for the Summer.
Or as in my families case we used to rent out a room to a family for a few weeks a year , we had a Dr and his family from Buckinghamshire stay every year when I was a boy.
Next door used to have a guy called McCallum and his family (we were in council houses) the son of the McCallum family went on to become famous as the man from uncle.
Anyways I digress, locals cannot afford houses, they have just built about fifty local authoritity homes up the road from me, only 2 of these houses went to local families, rest were allocated to folk that have moved to Arran in the past few years and folk on the Irvine Housing list .
A small two bedroom terraced house in the Village is up for sale, a young local family approached the seller and asked if he would take £230k and was basically laughed at.
In 2008 one of my friends set up an initiative called HIFAR , this was to look at self built projects on forestry land as is done in Argyll. North Ayrshire Council would not permit planning applications as the houses would bot have street lights, pavements or connection to water and sewage services, i was at the meeting where the young just out of Uni suits from North Ayrshire could not believe that anybody nowadays had water from small burns and a septic tank. Anyways the other issue was that the youngsters of today were not enamoured with getting their hands dirty and building their own homes, even with community assistance
The white settler issue is the Elephant in the room, althoug it’s probable that the numbers are not increasing as the churn ratebis pretty high, most who do stay for a long time tend to become a respected member of the community and also if my friends are anything to go by are yes supporters.
The churn rate is high because they come here on holiday quite often from yorkshire ( at one time there were more kids born in yorkshire at whiting bay primary than locals. ) love the laid back lifestyle, move to Arran and then moan that its not like yorkshire and they cant get anything done etc.
So between Holiday ahomes and White Settler I would say Arran is fecked as a ommunity. but its like that all over, i have relatives in rural County Mayo Ireland and same thing is happening there.
One thing before i go is that one of the drivers of the very high house prices on Arran is that North Ayrshire have a “Village Envelope” policy there are strict boundaries here, houses can only be built within. that drives up house prices and creates an urban type environement as folk are forced to split a feau to build a house for one of their kids. There is plenty of land but the urban mentality of North Ayrshire Council is going to kill Arran
One of us has signed the Salvo, received a few messages.
This is not something we usually do to be honest, as experience has taught us that the horse at the front of the race at the beginning is seldom the winner,
Having had a few false starts in the independence race over the years, we usually leave our selves free to run in any race that puts independence first on the finishing line.
Hence SNP leafleting, when they failed , Alba leafleting,
And now Salvo.
For us it is not about who takes us to the finishing line, it is whom is a strong horse contender in the race to ensure a win at the finishing line.
We do not usually hitch a high quality independence race horse to a wagon with a carrot dangled in front to slow it down,
Hopefully Salvo will be on the finishing line with Scotlands colours.
Republicofscotland.
This is also why we have a high ageing population,
My own son found the house prices did not match his wage packet, so he sold his belongings including his car and moved to NZ,
Over there he was awarded hardest worker of the year in the company he work for three years running, got married to a Scots lass that retained as a teacher for a second time as qualifications differ from Scotland, and now has four strong healthy sons.
That is two missing generations of youngsters from Scotland.
My daughter remained in Scotland but has to work two jobs six days a week to survive.
This exodus is happening across Scotland generation after generation.
They will not return home until Scotland has independence.
So this fight for a independent Scotland is not just for us, it is for our children and grandchildren and all the Scots children down the generations.
Republicofscotland.
It is not just NS that has to go, so does the devolved government.
Ian, I’ll have to check with my daughter and son in law – can’t do that right now as they’re on holiday in Inverness and then on to Durness.
From what I found on line there’s an article in the National about second homes but I ain’t giving any “Scottish ‘ paper money so I can’t read it . Perhaps someone can archive it and put it up.
Sarah , haven’t yet but will consider it.
Well done to Jake Whitman.
@ James Che at 4.20: I am impressed with Salvo’s case – it does settle that line “oh it isn’t legal for us to decide things in Scotland because it is only Westminster/England that has the legal right”.
And Scotland’s Constitution is much the best of any I have heard of – people have power instead of having to wait to change a set of politicians every few years for more of the same.
Salvo isn’t a political party – it is a truth-seeking missile! When the truth gets shared with enough people I am sure they will like it as much as I do.
So we all need to tell as many others as possible. Write to your local paper, forward the latest Salvo email to existing Yes friends, and suggest they sign the Declaration. When thousands have signed it then pressure will build on the politicians to listen for a change.
Dorothy Devine says:
20 July, 2022 at 5:10 pm
Ian, I’ll have to check with my daughter and son in law – can’t do that right now as they’re on holiday in Inverness and then on to Durness.
Oooooo, they’ve got the weather for Durness, and no mistake. Best beaches in all Britain, let alone Scotland.
The worst sunburn I ever had was at Durness 2003, I got it at six in the morning, and it was coming back from the beach to the Cape Wrath Hotel (RIP) after watching the solar eclipse!
I actually want to build social housing for young families, but not timber frame stuff, the proper stone cottage build to last variety, like the idyllic farm labourers cottage I grew up in, but these past 20 years, not a single soul has been interested. People now want mortgaged to the eyeballs, to spend £250-£350k on a stick built timber kit and they won’t be talked out of it. Kinda heart breaking actually.
I thought the recent initiative for £50k incentive to help local families stay in their areas was perhaps a sign of a more enlightened attitude towards housing, but getting information beyond the headlines is like getting blood from a stone. When that happens, it’s often the case that all the money sometimes comes from a corporate multinational house builder, and there are plans within plans so to speak, and typically no interest in small initiatives.
There are all kinds of initiatives that could be happening, but there’s no access to finance to get things moving. I’m not talking big bucks, especially if the land acquisition isn’t crippling. When the incredible ferry building Stuart Ballantyne can’t get any joy from the Scottish Government, there’s a fat chance for little ol’ me.
More enlightened Building Standards could work miracles too, but if there’s a way to get people to listen, I really don’t know what it is. But dire need, and capable people generates growth and prosperity, and the young folks could actually do a very great deal to help themselves massively too, but there is no crossover of initiatives, say self build housing and craft training their way into a career or their own business. That sort of thing should be standard practice.
When somebody says there’s nothing can be done, I respectfully disagree. The problem is the people capable of doing it are strung out like junkies trying to make ends meat because of corruption, rackets and nepotism at their Local Authorities and related quangos.
I’ve trained over half a dozen apprentices, could have trained a lot more, but they all fk off to Australia, so it seems rather pointless.
That’s WHY I want Independence. That’s why I want land reform. That’s why I want Scottish Government to serve the interests of Scottish people, invest in Scottish crafts, trades, and proper building stock, and NOT be in the pocket of fat Corporations or pseudo Scottish bodies with Unionist gatekeepers dug in like ticks. That’s why I also want a dedicated anti-corruption unit set up in Scotland to drive out all the crooks and allow honest Scottish companies to survive without life support.
I had such hope back in 2014 under Alex Salmond and the old SNP. I thought maybe things were going to change, but that hope has been all but destroyed by Sturgeon’s…. Well… Sturgeon’s everything really. She is useless. Nothing has grown, flourished, or shone whatsoever under her “leadership”. What people see in her is a complete mystery to me.
@ Ian B immediately below the initial comment that started the thread by dtaylor is a comment by a Skye islander who claims that a lot of locals are buying up any vacant house sales and using them as a second income and takes offence that anyone objects to them doing so , I watched a programme on BBC I think that highlighted the second home and airbnb situ on the island and lo and behold the local councillor was immersed in the whole airbnb and holiday lets greed
So it seems the rich locals are quite happy to gorge themselves on the greedy holiday lets scheme and fuck the young locals who cannot afford to buy on their miserable wages working in the tea rooms and coffee shops (presumably owned by those same rich fuckers)
@ Mark Boyle 1.03pm why would you think that it was AN OUTRAGE when you and yer pal Andy are very happy to let any Johnny come lately decide on Scotland’s and Scots futures or are ye jist at the wind up because you think allowing second home owners and airbnb is progressive and civic minded , come one and all from anywhere and OWN Scotland
The Great Brutish Raj used to leave the big cities in India and head for their more rural second homes during the summer heat.
The Great Brutish Raj are still doing that ,heading for east Lothian or the east nuek of Fife,
these places are deserted ghost towns after the summer months,
but still qualifies them for votes in our referendum.
Potential Harry Hill stylée Battle of the Lords “FIGHT!” between Offord and Davidson to sort out what constitutes a mandate.
He says this:
link to twitter.com
But she says this:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Thank you, Breeks, for your interesting post @ 5.43 pm. And, as always, for your commitment.
James Che. Very much like Ireland 100 years ago. Forced to leave their country due to poverty. It has only been in the last 30 years young Irish people started to stay or return.
England is no longer a big draw for the Irish. They don’t like its politics and it’s isolation from the EU. Ireland is now a reasonably strong EU nation.
That’s why people don’t realise that it’s now a demographic time bomb here. Soon there will be too few indigenous Scots to make independence happen. The English will keep coming because we are part of the UK. What they bring isn’t helping our economy. Its driving house prices up and creating a class culture like the one they left.
i don’t buy newspapers any more, but do glance at the headlines if I am in a supermarket or whatever. One of them – can’t remember which paper, but one of them – headlined something to the effect of Rishi Sunak pledging to be ‘the custodian of the Union’.
If he really said that, I thought his choice of words interesting. It immediately suggested to me that he probably thinks that we Scots are ‘in custody’, and as the (about-to-be-crowned) PM he will be the Polis-man in Chief. Keeping an eagle eye on us, so that we do not escape from his ‘custody’.
On the other hand, it could be argued that the original meaning of ‘custody’, or ‘custos’, is essentially that of being a guardian. For instance, towards a minor, looking after that minor’s interest while they are still too young to do it for themselves.
In that case, maybe the ‘Union’, over which he presumes to be the ‘custodian’, is just about to grow up. And when that happens – it grows up and is no longer held down by a custodian – those who comprise that Union will be mature enough to decide for themselves what they are going to do with it. Like break it up, for instance.
As if we are not grown-up enough already. Come on folks, time for real Scots to escape the clutches of anyone who claims to be their ‘custodians’. We’re not slaves. Not to Rishi Sunak, or anyone in his Party. … And not to Nicola Sturgeon either.
@twathater
So it seems the rich locals are quite happy to gorge themselves on the greedy holiday lets scheme and fuck the young locals who cannot afford to buy on their miserable wages working in the tea rooms and coffee shops (presumably owned by those same rich fuckers ,/b>
@ Mark Boyle 1.03pm why would you think that it was AN OUTRAGE when you and yer pal Andy are very happy to let any Johnny come lately decide on Scotland’s and Scots futures or are ye jist at the wind up because you think allowing second home owners and airbnb is progressive and civic minded , come one and all from anywhere and OWN Scotland
Make yer mind up, is it rich Scots at fault or those nasty “furriners”? Presumably you don’t believe all the problems associated with lack of affordable housing would go away if non-Scots were somehow prevented from buying any property. The same debates are being had in all neighbouring countries too: some have restrictions and some don’t. Some of the Scandinavians had to abandon some existing restrictions on foreigners buying property when they joined the EU.
Isn’t the way to stop rural flight and depopulation both to build more affordable housing, and to ensure there is investment and job creation in situ? Of course, you’re going to have to figure out where that money will come from: will it take priority on tackling social deprivation in urban areas, or be done in relation to the relative populations, or should we give rural areas and the Highlands and Islands preferential treatment?
I’m genuinely interested how you see that working? I’m sure a lot of folk with experience of urban deprivation and problems might object to what they’d regard as disproportionate funding for rural areas.
As for your furious straw manning and false equivalence about opposing franchise restriction but sympathising with the issues around second home ownership, it’s still a crock of shit, just like the whole regressive nativist narrative.
If our government in a future independent Scotland can come up with a solution to the issues of rural depopulation, second home ownership, Air BnB’s and the rest it’ll be doing a lot better job than most of the present ones seem to be able to do.
Like a lot of nativists WRT to the franchise restriction issue, you’re attracted to populist, anti-immigrant issues and think sophomoric far-lefty anti capitalist policies (with negligible popular support) are some kind of panacea.
No wonder the movement’s in the doldrums with insights of this kind of quality. A lot of Brigadoon fantasists divorced from reality.
twathater says:
20 July, 2022 at 5:52 pm
@ Mark Boyle 1.03pm why would you think that it was AN OUTRAGE when you and yer pal Andy are very happy to let any Johnny come lately decide on Scotland’s and Scots futures or are ye jist at the wind up because you think allowing second home owners and airbnb is progressive and civic minded , come one and all from anywhere and OWN Scotland
Second home owners don’t get a vote, champ.
Try brushing up on electoral law.
Or maybe stop pursuing vendettas on here everytime you feel butthurt like a wee waen.
If you hate “twats” so much (nice bit of misogyny there), perhaps you should take a wee look in the mirror, or at least pause before your next stream of consciousness ramblings you vomit on here regularly in lieu of coherent points after one half bottle of supermarket own brand blended “whisky” too many.
Scot Finlayson says:
20 July, 2022 at 6:04 pm
The Great Brutish Raj used to leave the big cities in India and head for their more rural second homes during the summer heat.
The Great Brutish Raj are still doing that ,heading for east Lothian or the east nuek of Fife,
these places are deserted ghost towns after the summer months,
but still qualifies them for votes in our referendum.
I’m sorry, but I’ve a mate who’s on the council down in Devon, where they have far more holiday homes than up here (nicer weather and all that …) to deal with, and to say these “people” (I’ll moderate my language) get on the electoral register at their Butt And Ben too because of it in those abodes as well is bullshit.
Remarkably, the Returning Officers and their staff, esp. in large rural areas, aren’t quite as innocent and naiive as some like to think they are.
India were lucky – they only had the Great British Raj. We have Sturgeon – the Great Scottish Radge!
Breeks says:
20 July, 2022 at 5:43 pm
“I actually want to build social housing for young families, but not timber frame stuff, the proper stone cottage build to last variety, like the idyllic farm labourers cottage I grew up in”
I believe that where there’s been a house, you don’t need planning permission to build a house, though I suspect that you’d need to submit drawings for approval and so on. As for the ways and means, the folk that build drystane dykes might be a reasonable start. It might also be possible to build a but’n’ben for the times; externally old-looking but inside – this is where your wooden frame comes in – it’s built on a float, internally framed and insulated. You could still have a stove – wood fuel from coppicing, as in Finland – with a back boiler, maybe? You’d have a water-butt. Solar PV and/or solar water, small turbine on a pole a bit away from the house, small-scale hydro. Council needs to be involved, I think, as you’d want it to be council housing, so not “on the market” and thus won’t end up as a holiday home or air b’n’b.
I like “district” ideas too, whether that be power generation or heating. Edinburgh university have an engine, which is worth a look if you get the chance.
Just some ideas…
@ Mark Boyle
If you have ever been an active campaigning member of a political Party then you’ll know that they can have access to the electoral roll and have software programs to manage their canvassing data. They can use this software to extract, filter, and print off voter lists from the ER database of all polling station, ward, or constituency areas to use for canvassing, and keeping their records as up to date as possible.
If one knows an area and the people living there well, it is relatively easy to see that there are occasionally things that catch your eye whilst looking through the canvass sheets.
An example being, a definite second home used occasionally and owned by folk living down south for most of the time had an occupant included on the General Election franchise when they should really only have been included on the Local Election franchise.
Now this particular situation could have been because the second home was described as one of the folk’s primary residence for tax reasons, rather than deliberate dodgy practice to gain a vote in the area. But it does highlight that anomalies can occur, and that the system of monitoring and checking those on the electoral roll isn’t that robust.
George Ferguson says:
19 July, 2022 at 6:26 pm
“And the stupid unbelievable rotas they have to work. Would you like to work 7 nights in a row of 12 hours plus. Get one day off and then work day shift?.”
From experience – although not medical – you want 2 days clear to change shifts. You get a short weekend one way and a long one the other for 12hr shifts. 3-shift’s easier, but you sometimes get the option of 12 hours because someone hasn’t turned up so you do half of their shift after yours and someone from the next shift comes in early to cover the rest.
Derek says:
20 July, 2022 at 9:45 pm
I believe that where there’s been a house, you don’t need planning permission to build a house…
No it’s not like that. You will always need Planning Permission, and a Building Warrant, although if there’s been a house on the site before, it’s highly likely you will get Planning Permission.
But that’s a double edged sword, because if you choose to refurbish an existing building, you’ll get bushwhacked for 20% VAT on the cost of it, whereas new build is 0% rated. That alone puts extraordinary pressure on some beautiful buildings, countless numbers of which could have been refurbished have been bulldozed. So much hypocrisy over environmental sustainability… But see what I mean about Regs?
There are a lot of other systemic prejudices against traditional stone buildings which lead to a presumption in favour of new build. Suddenly all the cottages and tenements we all grew up in aren’t fit to raise families in. Who knew the mortal peril we were all in? – dicing with death without an 0.27 U-value. Nowadays we’ve all got to live inside hermetically sealed bubbles with our pet dust mites and asthma.
You don’t actually need the frame either Derek. The only timber in the place will be your roof structure. As someone who works with old buildings, timber is the fabric which rots the moment a flashing fails or there’s water ingress some other way. We now build complete buildings from the bits which rot and fail in old buildings, and it’s very often with greatly inferior timber too.
It is criminal to see some beautiful tenement blocks disappearing to make way for the garbage which replaces them, but that’s what Government policy and the building industry want to happen. Objects of beauty, longevity and substance, created by integrated craftspeople and tradesmen are seen as a burden to us, but a stick built frame thrown up in a few weeks is somehow desirable, because the industry and government worships cheap and easy £££ instead of excellence; maximum out for the minimum in, then the Great fleecing of the unwary can begin… “Yeah, yeah, yeah, this flat is absolutely worth £350k”.
There are some workarounds… you can get exemption from VAT if the building is listed, but that can be a double edged sword. I think there’s also a way to get 0% rated if it’s the first time a building has been used as a dwelling.
All the gradients are tipped the wrong way. All the incentives should be tipped in favour of refurbishment. Once we lose our fine, fine stone vernacular High Streets and communities, they’re not coming back, and what replaces them is vastly inferior homogeneous banality and indifference.
I know it’s an extreme perspective, but look at what’s left standing in that path of forest fires in Australia or America. There’s nothing left standing. Then compare that to WW2 footage of London or Germany, where the haunting carcasses of 4 and 5 storeys of stonework are often left standing despite being bombed, gutted and set on fire with incendiary bombs.
If aliens landed amongst us and studied our species, they’d study our old buildings and compare them to our new ones, and conclude our societal advancement is in reverse.
I don’t mean the arrogant Country Houses of the over privileged elites. There’s nothing tasteful at all about that, although some of the buildings transcend that. Look at Fettes, or Donaldsons in Edinburgh, and you have remarkable buildings of global significance in my humble opinion., but I feel the same about working class stone tenements. In many ways, I think these are even more valuable.
To think how many fine stone buildings have been smashed to rubble because of a 20% asymmetric tax disincentive is scandalous, but there’s an army of petty vultures turning the screw and continually sniping at these spectacular old mills and tenements demanding these old hazards need pulled down for “safety” concerns. Stop complaining and fix the damned things, but all they want is the excuse to demolish them, and make way for 0% rated modern trash.
In the UK, and Scotland isn’t exempt, the housing market is a complete racket, with deliberate shortage of supply designed to stoke demand and thereby ratchet up the prices. It is NOT a coincidence. The crooks are running the system, and all the money disappearing out of peoples bank accounts now goes to Bank shareholders instead of circulating in our own communities, so we are all of us being bled, all the time.
There is a reason greed was traditionally recognised as sin.
But you know the brightest thing I heard all week? A wee flower punching through the blacktop… Sara Salyers trawling through Auld Scotland’s conventions where Scotland made it illegal for people to profit from the misfortune of others. Scotland hated Tory spivs even in the Middle Ages.
Scotland, Auld Scotland that is, before it was poisoned by the Union, feels like having a wise old mum or dad, who raised you right but died too soon, and ever since, you’ve missed their steadying influence. Independence brings that Nation back to us, and how I ache to see it.
Ian , ignore those figures – I think that is an’incomer’ figure relating to the last decade or so, in which case I think it would be higher.
Definitely need Jingly Jangly man on the case.
@Dorothy Devine (7.12) –
Okay Dorothy, noted, thanks.
😉
@Derek 10:16pm
Agreed. A better report from STV evening news last night on the SNHS. Relayed the jeopardy of the situation well and the consequences of not addressing the challenges immediately.
Breeks
The Highlands are rapidly becoming Timber ( frame ) Land. An identiKIT wasteland of homogenised boxes , every once unique village/community indistinguishable from another ; * individuality * reduced to a variation in type of door-knocker .
All done under the pretext of ” supplying local demand ” . In reality nothing of the sort . They – the * Developers * – throw these things up and then solicit buyers from * elsewhere * . Toss-in the obligatory % of supposed ” affordables ” – begging the question to whom exactly is £200,000 + ” affordable ” ? and the minimal % of For Rent required to get the green light and allow ScotGov to boast about how it’s addressing the * Housing Problem * – while actually making it worse .
Another * development * of 95 such boxes just begun in my patch of Airstrip One , to add to the 70+ completed in the last couple of years . Changing the character and demography beyond recognition .
As you say …..the whole housing racket is precisely that eg a racket , from the mortgage stranglehold of banks n * lenders * – in which your home ends-up costing you upwards of three times the nominal cost ; 20% deposit requirement ; Insurance , Lawyers , Estate Agents all getting their slice of the pie : all of whom could be done away with at a stroke , if housing went back to what it used to be eg….a human necessity , and not just another commodity to be traded .
As for aesthetic considerations ? Forget it , their way way down the list .
Knock ’em up – Knock ’em out – Jobs a good ‘un .
* they’re * !
@ Breeks
Another aspect of older traditional stone built houses is that the dressed stones can generally be re-used as the lime mortar used between the stones is easily removed.
So from an environmental point they are way better than modern concrete block and cement built shite which are only good for being crushed for rubble at end of life, and they also had a very energy intensive process to make them in the first place.
I do wonder what will happen in the future with regard to the ongoing maintenance and repair of a huge number of our traditionally built buildings. Will there be enough young folk training to get the skills required to carry out that type of work on our traditional and often listed or conservation status buildings.
Major weeping and wailing coverage of the folks impacted by the London fires.
Ah well, shit as they say happens. Especially when they were told it would be so. A failure of government to change course, to rein in the corporates, refocus our energy production and use. But it was all about corporate profit and still is.
And what did the Tory minister have to say in parliament yesterday. You couldn’t make it up because he said we are going to have to get used to it.
London’s burning. Suck it up. Pump more oil, make more profits. Fight more wars. You know it makes sense.
Time we got shot of these southern wasters and plotted our own course.
And talking about climate change it’s not just the Tory Government at Westminster who has failed to change course. Vested corporate interest has ensured that governments around the world have too failed to change our carbon emitting ways.
And so, with the current record heatwave, countries around the world are burning. Biden however, appears to have awoken to the issue when yesterday he announced that he would use all his powers as president to initiate a huge off shore wind generation programme.
Unlike our Tory government who said we would just have to get used to the heat and the fires, Biden now says he wants to do what should have been done before.
More fires is maybe what is needed. Only that it seems will change the Tory mindset here.
And its not just climate change that’s running wild. What about plastic pollution. For years and years folks were separating out their waste putting plastics in the recycle bin. What absolute saps they were to in doing so because as it emerges most of the plastic was just dumped or burn after being transported to some far away land.
Its certainly not beyond the skill of mankind to develop natural polymers that degrade. But again, Big Plastic the sister business of Big Oil makes money out of plastic. But we can all feel good because at lest now we can all buy a 45p paper bag form Morrisons to take home all our plastic wrapped shopping.
Again, there will be no real change until we are all up to our necks choking in plastic pollution. But hey, who really cares.
So more pollution please, more choked oceans, more plastic ingestion into our bodies. Like the fires we need to get used to it. Plastic could be the new asbestos but worse. Asbestos only caused lung cancer.
Ah, green washing!
It seems to me that there are an awful lot of posters on here who can easily highlight the many problems currently being endured in Scotland, the UK and the world at large. However, all are at a loss to explain how to remedy things for the better for all.
Sadly, if an individual, a company or a country can make lots of money that simply takes precedence over anything else.
It does not help that most Politicians are incompetent and are simply out to feather their own nests. No qualifications are necessary to become a Politician but it does help if you have the ability to lie, have a brass neck and are unable to answer a question yet get away with it. Still we vote them in at every election because we live in hope.
Big business controls Governments and this is not going to change anytime soon. Money rules. It is almost impossible nowadays to ‘beat the system’. Control what you can in your life and grit your teeth. Or you could always post on here 5 times a day and achieve absolutely nothing other than the admiration of some your fellow contributors.
Am I being unduly pessimistic-possibly so, but what Politician or any CEO of a large Company fills YOU with conviction that anything is going to change. Independence for Scotland will not be permitted to take place.
One of my ancestors ‘Chas O’ the Glens’ was instrumental in convincing Robert the Bruce to commandeer the high ground at Bannockburn which ultimately led to the Scottish victory. Fairly recently my grandfather was responsible for ‘downing’ more German aircraft than any body else in World War 2. Some say he was the worst mechanic the Luftwaffe ever had!
@ all this morning’s posters: have you signed Salvo’s declaration? Because it is their work that proves our Scottish constitution is the best for people – Common Good over greed, People Power over Parliament.
Get this word out and put the fear of God into any of our “independence” parliamentarians if they don’t shift themselves to get us free.
If what they are saying about the planet being screwed is true, then the planet is truly screwed.
You reach this philosophical point with impending catastrophes where it makes more sense to prepare for the inevitable than to try and avoid it.
The fact is most of us aren’t really ready or willing to dramatically change our lives and reduce our carbon footprints. The sort of “sacrifices” we are willing to make are all empty gestures.
Apparently, for example, the manufacture of every electric car results in 12 tonnes of carbon emissions, whereas a normal petrol car on average results in about 6. When you factor everything in including the carbon cost of electricity production, it works out you don’t get a carbon advantage until that electric car has driven 400 thousand miles.
How many independence supporters would support shutting down North Sea oil? How many would be willing to get by on 2 hours of electricity per day? How many would give up meat and travel? I could go on. The point is, though, even if we did all that, it wouldn’t make any difference unless the big boys like China and others did so too and that isn’t happening.
Instead of wasting money on comforting empty gestures, we should be preparing for catastrophe, not trying to avoid it. There’s a lot scotland can do to prepare that will make a difference, and in terms of geography and resources we are favourably positioned.
I see climate is the topic BTL. Well it’s easy. Just change the laws as you need.
link to reuters.com
Voila. Nuclear and Gas energy is green until they say otherwise again.
Hatuey, you seem to think that change is impossible, that countries and people will not change their ways, and that we should be preparing for disaster instead of trying to avoid.
Couldn’t disagree with you more. Averting disaster is what we should be about else we are all doomed. I suspect however that you do not really mean that but rather you, and with a large degree of justified cynicism, see change as very difficult – which of course this far it has.
Human kind are in truth parasitic by nature. And as we know parasites live and feed on an organism until it is overcome – and then the parasite either moves on or dies. But we, or at least some of us are better than the simple parasite who has no concept of sustainability.
Maybe therefore the point you make is that we just continue until so many of us die through a wrecked ecology whereafter we can maybe, and that is no guarantee, manage to get back to some equilibrium.
Or maybe, the future is not in a humankind form at all. Like the dinosaurs maybe we are doomed. But in that, here’s a thought. If you asked a super computer, biological or silicon to consider how you would save the planet ecology, what do you think one solution might be. Kill the parasites perchance, or substantially all of them. Now that would be a solution and maybe we could vaccinate against humans – save for the special few.
( side note. The late Prince Phillip once quipped that he would like to come back as a super virus to wipe out the surplus world population. A man ahead of his time perchance)
@Chas (10.25) –
‘However, all are at a loss to explain how to remedy things for the better for all.’
The Tories are still in the process of jettisoning a degenerate Etonian before choosing a halfwit to replace him. (i.e. Truss – grassroots Tories will never ever approve a ‘person of colour’ as their leader)
So, first up, for the betterment of all, we get shot of Tories.
But we can’t do that because we’re a wee country with not that many people compared to England so we’ll never be able to vote them out. So the option is that we go independent.
What is it about that process that you don’t understand?
O/T: I’ve just noticed that the SSRG Conference – you know, the one that has the people and plans to get us free – are selling one-day tickets for Friday 29th July.
Also campsite places are available for cheaper accommodation.
Sarah.
People sovereignty is first on my list, is is the basic foundation stone of Scotland, it was there in the beginning of time, we let in go by a slow take over of our human rights we did not realise we had, by the time a “Ruler” in a jam returned it to us we had begun to wake up,
When the treaty of the union was signed it again was confirmed in writing and the english parliament agreed this was how they saw the Scots,
For a second time the Scots did not realise how valuable this was, for more than 300 years, they had held something so precious that the people in other countries were not only willing but did die for. Wars were fought to obtain and regain it.
Politicians, dictatorships, tyrants governments in over the world have and are attempting to steal it from people under constant new laws of restrictions.
That sovereignty of the Scots was why I telling people to it was illegal to legislate under health issues lockdowns in Scotland, NS and BJ are not sovereign over Scots, it can only be Advisory, Scots will use their own sovereignty and common sense in their own country to decide wether they should be imprisoned in their homes.
That policy did as much damage to cancer patients, kidney patients, to those mentally ill, to children and education and businesses, and not being able to see your doctor,
and most of all vitamin D from the sun and fresh air is known to stimulate the immune system and mental health wellbeing, Isolation for grandparents, children and families and friends was also damaging mentally. Especially for those that lived on their own.
We are sovereign over NS and Westminster, that does not mean we are stupid and would not take our own health safety measures on a individual basis for our families.
That illegal control over Scots people by a non sovereign devolved government damaged country for nearly two years.
This is not about the big ( Cvd ) illness that everyone has their own opinion on, this is about the Scots once more forgetting they are Sovereign to choose,.
And if they continue to slip up along this path it gives their sovereignty voluntary to a devolved government from Westminster whom claims it has ultimate sovereignty even over Scots by a default position.
This back door stealth of stealing scottish sovereignty has to stop or it could be used or weaponised against the Scots as a servile Scots Constitution to Westminsters falsely claimed Sovereignty,
Dan says:
21 July, 2022 at 8:30 am
I do wonder what will happen in the future with regard to the ongoing maintenance and repair of a huge number of our traditionally built buildings. Will there be enough young folk training to get the skills required to carry out that type of work on our traditional and often listed or conservation status buildings…
That’s already a very definite no, but it won’t be appreciated until people wake up one day and wonder where all the nice bits of the Town have gone and why it’s lost it’s character.
It’s a chicken and egg thing. Nothing lasts forever. All buildings have a finite lifespan, but that’s less of a loss if you still have the capacity to build them from new… that is new build of equal stature, not cheap pastiche.
Lose the capacity to renew a thing, and when it’s gone it’s gone, unless it’s really special like the Glasgow School of Art. If the money can be found, you can probably restore a GSA or Notre Dame, but without those Trades flourishing on a day to day business, there will never be a new building in the same vocabulary.
Sobering fact, the finest stone building ever built, whatever that is, is already here. Unless something changes, there won’t be a better one for 1000 years. Though Barcelona might have something to say about that.
That also applies to other industries too, like shipbuilding. Look at what we had, and look at what was thrown away.
What is screwing the planet isn’t the apocalyptic, climate change mantra mathematical modellers, although their pseud science is bad enough, but the mindset critiqued here. link to unherd.com
which considers dissidence «fascist», an impediment to the rich getting even richer, «government» becoming more authoritarian and digital corporatism replacing democracy.
You can, it seems, fool most of the people all of the time, but be kind and caring.
«Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one—the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts»
C.S.LEWIS
Ian Brotherhood
‘What is it about that process that you don’t understand?’
I understand the process better than most but unlike some I am practical and realistic.
Simple question Ian-HOW?
Will it be by the magical, mythical route or by convincing people to put a cross on a ballot box? I do not see much evidence of the latter. Plenty of the opposite.
You are 100% correct in stating that firstly we have to get shot of the Tories, then swiftly followed by the SNP. Hate to say it, but in the short term. we would probably all be better voting Labour to get rid of both. Unfortunately 30% of all Scots still think that the SNP are doing a fantastic job!! A further 30% of all Scots will never vote for Independence. 20% could not care less for whatever reasons. Who is going to sway the minds of the remaining 20% who will ultimately determine our fate? Nicola!!! or the romantics and dreamers on here who spout the same stuff day after day?
Alba and Salmond have to take the gloves off and start telling it how it really is with the SNP. We have heard that the hidden ammo is there. The visible evidence is for all to see (unless you are a sheep.)
sarah says:
21 July, 2022 at 10:32 am
@ all this morning’s posters: have you signed Salvo’s declaration? Because it is their work that proves our Scottish constitution is the best for people – Common Good over greed, People Power over Parliament.
Get this word out and put the fear of God into any of our “independence” parliamentarians if they don’t shift themselves to get us free.
I’m sorry Sarah, but no.
This is yet another example of “hobby politics” – self-indulgent naval gazing initiatives (mainly by middle class people) designed to make the participants feel good about themselves whilst achieving utterly hee-haw. Lots of self-important meetings, lots of self-important declarations, lots of self-important papers written, and lots of couldn’t care less from the general public.
This wouldn’t put the fear of any deity into any SNP or “Scottish Green” parliamentarian, any more than “All Under One Banner (Terms And Conditions Apply …)” does. They know they can kill it by their sheer indifference. Their indifference means no publicity. No publicity, no one takes you seriously as representing anything substantial.
The only “politicians” likely to rally to it are those in the “lost deposit” catagories who will “back” anything that will give them a platform (and nine times out of ten with a view to hijacking it for their particular slant of “the cause”)
Meanwhile, real day to day bread and butter issues – such as housing we all waxed lyrical about yesterday (or for that matter bread and butter with the cost of living going through the roof) – stuff your average person in the street will care less about, gets put on the back burner. Stuff ordinary Job public care about, especially when times get tough.
“Ah yes, well, up to a third of all housing on some Scottish islands and even the mainland in some rural areas being holiday homes is all very concerning, especially as part of Scotland’s continued failure to tackle homelessness, but what’s really important don’t you realise is that the Scots Are Sovereign and we need to build a mass movement to demand our Claim Of Right and stuff, so that the politicians will have to … hello? … hey, don’t walk away! Come back!”
The comedian Bruce Morton used to have as part of his comedy shows a bit of audience participation: everyone was encouraged to shout out “GET – F**KIN’ – REAL!” if at any stage of the show he was meandering into too much introspection and flights of fancy rather than getting to the punchline. It’s something I fear Scottish politics, let alone Scottish nationalism, is long past requiring.
Willie, I have no desire to kill anyone and I am opposed to framing human beings as parasites — by the standard you are using, all lifeforms are arguably parasites which means the descriptor is entirely useless.
The fact is you are on here using just as much electricity and other resources as anyone else. Maybe you think silicone chips and computer screens grow on trees…
Let’s stop with the ‘holier than thou’ tone and accept the reality of the situation.
If the choice we face is catastrophe or radical, meaningful, change then that simply means we are heading for catastrophe. I say that because, as per the example I gave, the changes we are making in order to avert this coming catastrophe are simply not going to make any positive difference.
And I’m simply saying it makes more sense to use what limited resources we have to prepare for that catastrophe rather than persist with the token gestures and virtue signaling which is really all the so-called Green movement seems capable of achieving (through no fault of their own, I’d add).
The planet will self-correct. Crop failures, vast tracts of land slowly becoming uninhabitable, water shortages, floods, forest fires, etc., that’s what we should be preparing for. In that regard, individuals and individual governments can make a huge difference.
sarah says:
21 July, 2022 at 11:46 am
O/T: I’ve just noticed that the SSRG Conference – you know, the one that has the people and plans to get us free – are selling one-day tickets for Friday 29th July.
Aye, conference to “get us free”, only £25 entry! 😀
I thought that smug bastard sharing my name who calls himself The Moneyless Man while charging £15 for his “talks” had some brass neck but this takes the Tunnocks!
Mark Boyle, I hoped you were going to explain to us what “GET – F**KIN’ – REAL!” means. Alas, nothing.
You seem to be saying that in order to be relevant we need to commit to moaning about the price of beans. Any evidence of that working for you?
Didn’t think so.
One of the reasons I have signed up for Salvo — and advise everyone to do likelwise — is that it is the only movement out that there is putting organisational structures in place, beyond the usual and very limited political party machine type stuff.
It may have escaped your notice but party politics has failed and is continuing to fail us. Westminster is a colonial Parliament that, unlike any other Parliament in the world, has almost absolute power to overrule anything we in the dominions decide.
That all said, I think the road ahead looks pretty bumpy and I won’t be surprised if things get so bad for people in Scotland that they start reaching for solutions that other parties can’t reach. And that’s where Salvo comes in.
@ James Che: mass personal action to apply our sovereignty over our politicians and economic rulers is essential.
As individuals it is difficult to have an impact which is why we need to join with the groups which are focussed on expressing and applying our sovereignty.
Your household and mine have signed up to Salvo but no-one else btl here is talking about it. I see Salvo and SSRG as the most valuable tool in our campaign kit being non-party and ACTIVE in educating the public as to the power we have in our hands, and showing the desire to use that power now.
Aye, the VAT’s the killer. I’ve spoken to a few architects who’ve been asked to draw two options for a building/site, and the VAT has been the decider regarding the demolition of what’s there.
The one that really got me was a red sandstone tenement row on the bottom corner of Dewar Place; the council evicted everyone because it was (allegedly) a hotbed of prostitution and they were demolished. Nothing happened for ages; what a waste.
See also Craigmillar; good big 30s flats, all gone now.
Breeks.
Good ideas on building our own stone cottage homes.
However as I mentioned on here a while ago, I was homeless for five years through the manipulation of local council policy.
When you have no shelter from weather, no where to cook, have meals, no toilet or wash facilities, no water supply, and no where safe to lie down at night to sleep, never mind a chair to sit on, or a door to lock at night.
Believe me, a temporary log cabin is and would have been heaven,
For the young whom have run away from home due to dire family issues, for recovering addicts to get them of the streets, for those whom have lost employment, home /mortgages, and those that cannot afford the high rents, for divorced and separated families. And for those like myself that fell prey to Tory/ labour councils manipulating the housing system in favour of friends and selling of housing stock under falsified reasons. And I was not the only one in that council are.
They were sending council tax bills to a man sleeping in bales of hay with a piece of plastic for his roof.
I met all these people from all walks of life when I was homeless.
Sadly the media portray most of these as drop outs, this is not true, many were families, many looked after others, many offered to share what little they had with their fellow humans.
All of these people would have loved to lived in a log cabin in stead of a dark street or bales of hay.
The planning reality on the ground for housing has to be all encompassing,
Ideally they would love a cottage with a garden. Maybe most of us would,
People packed into high rise flats behave differently from those with ample space for recreation, it must have been a nightmare for those during Cvd that cid not even have a garden to sit in, or for the kids.
Housing in a new independent Scotland must have variety of planning and choices to be a success.
Some people just want a home and a address, they will not be to fussy wether it is made of wood or stone.
@ Hatuey: you, me and James Che rate Salvo then! And in another group I belong to I got one new signatory.
Salvo is dynamite. We can blow away so many of the problems that are discussed on here once we have People Power – abolish VAT on repairs to old buildings; take politicians to court for abusing their position; create safe drug users rooms; make prisons places where help is available – and loo seats. Do you all know that Craig Murray’s cell 8′ x 12′ contained a loo with NO seat? The idea being to make the prisoner even more uncomfortable and degraded.
The BBC appears to have blundered big-time with its programme aiming to ‘understand’ why some people will not accept the vaccine/boosters etc.
The participants are claiming that they were seriously misrepresented in the edited broadcast and have organised to refute the whole presentation. They’ve secured interviews with other broadcasters (most notably GB News) and are hitting back.
For more details tweet #unvaccinated
If Scotland ever becomes again a sovereign political entity, it may do so at a time when the world dynamic has turned unpleasantly turbulent.
Scotland may need to reinvent itself, discard comfortable myth and stereotype, and reconstruct. It will need the collective energy and political will to find its path through the turbulence, rejecting the advances of those seeming to offer safe haven, and be prepared not to go with the flow of convention into others power games.
Essentially, it would need to be more democratic, more accountable, more informed and «educated» than now.
The current SNP leadership is old school «top down» politics. It is not the politics of a full time, participatory democracy. It is a legacy of the subordinating Union that ought to be discarded now.
Politics is not just for an election, for trend influencers or the self-selecting «few».
So according to radio news the UKSC has put of with dealing the question that our lord advocate was to cowardly to decide for herself on whether the SG has the competence to hold an indyref with Westminster’s consent, until the some time in October.
Robert Hughes.
I could not agree more, The manner in which these wooden houses are being built and the manipulation of big coporations in the house building industries along with local council planning systems fills the housing market with ugly wooden housing often on a gigantic scale for the affluent.
This is not a solution, rather it creates and furthers other problems.
This tight reined monopely on housing control for a few whom can afford unafordable housing has to be eased up on,
Where I live the council even dictate what colour you can paint your windows and doors, council or private houses,
This leaves everything a uniform grey or dark brown. And in a Scottish winter that is mightily depressing.
The joy of being and having your own home to look after with care is being sucked out of society, every thing has to conform to a set standard,
when you look at row after row of grey houses, with concrete or lock block driveways, the same colour scheme, all with the same horizontal blinds in there windows,postage stamp size lawns manicured to within an inch of its life, along the same tarmac cul de sacs and cresents,
You could be anywhere, you could get lost, and you loose the will to live. No wonder people suffer from depression.
I find this almost laughable the only folk holding Scotland back are the SNP government. Yet many indy minded Scots still heed the SNP’s mind games that they play on their supporters, by pointing the finger at Westminster and saying its all their fault that we are not yet independent.
The power lies with Sturgeon to get us out of this union, so why are we still trapped in it, obviously the SNP led by Sturgeon are quite happy with the status quo, it not rocket science.
Sturgeon says one thing to the indy faithful but the reality is that she does another, come next October the finger will once again be pointed at Westminster as to why there’s no indyref, and the same thing will happen when the next GE comes around, this carrot dangling to the indy masses has been going on since Salmond stood down as FM, and it will continue to either the penny drops for those who can’t see past Sturgeon wake the f*ck up.
“A GROUP of MPs will investigate whether the UK Government is doing enough to promote Scotland abroad amid claims the country is being held back by the Union.
The Scottish Affairs Committee, chaired by the SNP’s Pete Wishart, has said it will hold an inquiry into how much Westminster is doing to attract investment and international interest in Scotland’s “extraordinary offering”.”
link to 12ft.io
Sarah: “you, me and James Che rate Salvo”
Everybody should join, if only to give MI5 more work.
It’s easy to be negative about everything, as many on here demonstrate.
Disinclined as I am to invest hope in romantic ideas about historical documents, I think the most sound legal basis up which Scotland can challenge the Union is to be found in the Treaties and Acts that created the Union. And I like the idea of the Union being hoisted on its own petard like that.
The fact is that the Act of Union remains extant — of course it does, it’s the basis of everything as far as defining and recognising the UK as a legal entity is concerned.
And within that Act you will find that Scotland is very specifically defined as a Nation entering into a partnership, with rights and responsibilities just as Nations joining the EU or any other international treaty are so recognised.
If self-determination is a right of all people, it is much more than that in Scotland where the sovereignty of the people is enshrined with sparkling clarity.
You simply can’t argue that the Act of Union matters without arguing that all of these things matter too.
Ottomanboi.
When Scotland gains its independence new ideas, new ways of thinking, will automactically evolve.
When a weight has been lifted from your shoulders , when most people will have a new found freedom they have not experienced in hundreds of years Scotland will find its on feet, stumbling and bumbling like a toddler taking its first steps to freedom, we will fall, we will make errors and mistakes no doubt,
But eventually toddlers learn to walk, when they work out co- ordination and when confident enough and with practice they learn to run.
However we have the teething problem stage to go through just now, and that causes quite a lot of growing pains.
Scotland will thrive like a growing child if our mother government takes care of their offspring properly.