A Little Respect
Readers, meet SNP councillor Fatima Joji.
As you can see, she’s part of the hyperwoke “Aberdeen Independence Movement” faction which recently took it upon itself to issue a “code of conduct” for independence campaigners, demanding that everyone in the Yes movement should debate things:
And here’s Cllr Joji setting an example last night:
Hmm.
She said it twice so nobody misunderstood her.
The tweets were part of an extended tirade objecting to a tweet thread I’d posted about Tory leadership candidate Kemi Badenoch.
I hadn’t actually “advocated” for Badenoch at all, of course. She’s a Conservative with Conservative values, most of which I find repellent. Rather, I’d pointed out that from a Tory point of view she was the smart choice for leader, because she’d be much harder for Keir Starmer to fight than someone like the current front-runner Penny Mordaunt.
(A point also made by many other people, including the splendid Allison Bailey.)
Alert readers will have noted that both Cllr Joji and fellow wokester Miguel “William Saraband” Boronha insisted that Badenoch wasn’t an immigrant at all – something which will have come as surprising news to Badenoch, who was raised in Nigeria from the age of two weeks to adulthood, whose first language is Nigerian, and who certainly appears to see herself that way.
But Joji went much further, repeatedly making the outrageous and utterly unfounded allegation that I had, on unspecified occasions and in unspecified ways, personally “harassed virtually everyone in the [SNP] BAME Network for being BAME in politics”.
(Unfortunately it seems Cllr Joji hasn’t been keeping herself up to date with the latest developments in woke Newspeak – the term “BAME” is now regarded as “offensive”, “outdated”, “unhelpful” and “redundant” according to a report by the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities last year. We trust she’ll surrender herself promptly to the relevant authorities for re-education.)
As far as I can tell I’ve only even HEARD of three people in the SNP BAME Network, and I haven’t “harassed” any of them, let alone done so “for being BAME in politics”.
So naturally I challenged Cllr Joji to substantiate her offensive and defamatory claim.
She didn’t react very well to being asked to back up the disgraceful smear of racism, suggesting that a polite request for such evidence was in fact “bullying”.
(I hadn’t mentioned any kind of legal action at any point.)
Instead she just repeated the smear over and over again.
So we can only suppose that baselessly calling people racists, bullies, harassers and “disgusting scum” who can “absolutely gtf” is what classes as “agreeing to differ in a respectful and tolerant manner” in the new SNP.
We have to be honest with you, folks, it doesn’t fill us with optimism about the state of an independent Scotland. But then, with the SNP in charge, that’s not something we’re going to have to worry about any time soon.
Was disgusted by the foul comments you were subjected to. The SNP wokies just keep on lying ?
Kemi Badenoch: Schrodingers immigrant.
It is a pity that justice is nigh on impossible to achieve in sturgeon’s Scotland.
Joji strikes me as an entitled brat. So she’ll fit right in with the rest of the transcult.
The good news is they are seeing the writing on the wall.
Even when they’re wrong and proven wrong….Politics ??
So we must suppose that calling people racists, bullies, harassers and “disgusting scum” is what classes as “agreeing to differ in a respectful and tolerant manner” in the new SNP.
Only if said by a member of the SNP-woke brigade. If said by anyone else then you’re in big trouble!
You committed the ultimate act if aggression by asking wokey children to provide actual evidence. You should know it’s all subjective these days, you monster!
I always think it’s hilarious that the Nu-SNP insists we show the utmost respect and deference to JK Rowling if she’s calling us “Death Eaters,” but that death threats are totally fine if she’s saying that women’s rights are important. Wokeism is a pernicious cult.
I have friends and family of many nationalities,
But I dont have any with chips on their shoulders going out of their way to stir up hatred that search and seek racism as a form of hobbie, to close down free speech in the nation and nationality of Scots who are fast becoming an ethic race themselves.
Which the population as a whole has never had a record of racism of,
The only people in Scotland that displayed racism in Scottish history were the landed gentry and their racism was aimed at burning the Scots out of their homes, slaying as many Scots as possible, to steal their land, using Scots as Slaves and breaking up families by shipping them of to work in one of the Colonies,
Those landed gentry had white and black racism and still do when you watch MR HOYLE in this last Weeks Westminter,
She just sounds deranged.
Trouble with the Wokies, or that should be just one of the “troubles”, is that when you point out their idiocy, hypocrisy and often outright insanity, you’re instantly accused of some kind of phobia.
Not phobic anything personally, just don’t subscribe to their bullshit – especially the sort that claims bullshit as fact, and then runs away bleating when they’re called out.
She is one of our local councilors in Aberdeenshire (where I live incidentally) and has alienated all but the WOKE fraternity in the AIM.
She shamelessly plays the race card when it suits her (like topping the Aberdeen list with around 5% of the CA vote) and is hip deep with notorious aberdeen MP Kirsty Blackman.
At least she beat other woke candidates like Josh Mennie so she has her positive points.
I personally wouldn’t trust her to tell me if it was raining without opening a window to check……. She is completely unsuited to being a councilor and her selection in the first place is a sad reflection on the Aberdeenshire CAs once all the adults left.
Rev Stu.
I think you have enough intolerance and racism from this lady already to start a collection of racist attacks aimed at you and all of us Scots as Race of people, whom have done her no harm
Mind keep the evidence.
She is displaying racism to the local natives in Scotland.
Where does the SNP get such unsavoury idiots?
Independence going nowhere fast.
Joji has links to Kezia Dugdale’s sinister, John Smith Centre for Public Service (published accounts four years late and counting). The JSCfPS is a finishing school for Stepford politicians. Never had a proper job in their lives, humanities graduates. When / if the JSCfPS reveals their accounts, my guess would be funding from the US State Department (routed through various fronts).
You know what, fuck this fuckin shite, I’m sick and tired of these fuckin wokists trying to rule and demanding we bow to their will and thinking, fuck that, that lassie needs to be called out.
Hit her with a cease and desist letter or actually sue her and we will pay for the crowdfunder, they need to fuckin learn tolerance and respect and when throwing accusations.
BACK IT UP or shut the fuck up and sit quietly in the next room.
Scots have physically, mentally and financially suffered racism for hundreds of years from past to present.
The sad thing is this lady does not want to see the history of suffered racism and abuse the Scots have had to endure,
I presume she thinks racism only happens to her narrow spectrum of reality. As she attacks the race and nation of Scots with racism.
Say it as it is,
Wikipedia (not the best source, I know) has her as born in London:-
“Badenoch was born in 1980 in Wimbledon, London, to Femi and Feyi Adegoke. Her father was a GP and her mother is a professor of physiology. She has two siblings; a brother named Fola and a sister called Lola. Badenoch’s childhood included time living in Lagos, Nigeria and in the United States, where her mother lectured.”
Not stirring, just trying to contribute.
Must go, got a carpet to lift…
I believe the Rev has committed what is known in wokespeak as a microaggression.
It seems a bit hypocritical though that those who throw these accusations are displaying behaviours that fits the description of this themselves.
I saw most, but not all, of those tweets last night at about 2am Scottish time. I understand why someone could misunderstand the point you were making about Kemi Badenoch. I mean, they may be very tired or they may have missed the tweet about Penny Mordaunt. Also, they may be very dense or they are happy to be willfully misrepresenting what you wrote. But for the life of me I cannot find where you said anything ageist. Is there a tweet out there that could be misconstrued as you being ageist? If not, I am steadily coming to the conclusion that a councilor is making stuff up and, whatever the party, that is not a good look.
We really should put these Wokes into a room with someone like Sir Linday Hoyle and his braying and baying band of English MPs.
Hoyle by his hate filled outburst this week would have the Woke either shitting themselves fixed to the spot or growing a spine and lashing out at the agressor.
Can you imagine what would happen to Hoyle if he conducted finger his face contorted rage and finger pointing to someone in a bar, or a cafe or in a street in Scotland. Someone quite frankly, and in self defence would react and beat the absolute crap out of him. His actions, and those of his bellowing English chums may be driven by hate – but hate creates reactions. This guy is a thug. His parliament is full of thugs.
Can you imagine if side arms could have been worn this week. This thug would have used them
And the Wokes – well nappies all round for them.
Rev stu,
You and others on here come from around all over Scotland, from different backgrounds and different nations, nations of the world in fact.
She is racist in branding and name calling africans, Asians . white, Scots , Italians, Chinese, polish, germans and Americans SCUM.
Interesting that she appears to be muslamic and is shooting her mouth off.
– I think the koran allows you to hit her with your shoe, but only her husband/brother/father may whip her.
Woke and muslim all together, how does that work out?
– there was a scandal a few years back about african, usually nigerian women, going into labour, then getting on a flight to London to take advantage of the NHS superior maternity facilities. One lady ran up a 300K bill, then fucked off.
One of the tweets implies “Kemi” was the product of one of these cases; another example of why “being born here” can mean fuck-all. Who are you – well, who are your parents?
BAME is conceptual nonsense – black (all of africa, east and west, hutu and tustsi, igbo, yoruba etc times 1000), asian (china, japan, korea, india, pakistan), middle eastern (turk, syrian, kurd, jew) – they are all such pals
Do they have a list of’isims and ists ‘ that their running through so they can acuse ye of stuff Rev?
Cause they sure as shit don’t have an argument.
In 2014 for the purposes of the Indy movement we were ‘aw Jock Tampsons bairns’ and despite the best efforts of those who would direct us….we still are.
I for one am no interested in their rules and guidelines.
I show up,I campaign and I vote.
I do this to end the Treaty we’re stuck in.
I don’t do it to add shit tonnes of terms and conditions to my vote.
Its a simple proposition and I can’t see why so many get so so confused over it.
Indy + ,Indy but, Indy If ,Indy This, Indy that, Indy with bells and whistles…..Its a pile of self important nonsense.
Leave them to their imagined grievances Rev,hold whichever opinions ye wish and keep on doing what ye do
Willie,
It is amazing how colour blind people can be when it comes to racism,
Mr Hoyle broke the westminster rules to show is racist hatred to the Scots, now that is racism,
Please stop calling these people “woke”. It plays to their agenda, and too many people still see it as synonymous with “progressive” and anti racism (which it was in the original American sense), while they see “anti-woke” as a right wing cry.
These people are not progressive or liberal in any sense: quite the opposite. And in SNP/independence politics they are divisive, wreckers, infiltrators – people who, since 2017 have gone all out to disrupt and remove serious independence campaigners from both the SNP and the wider movement. Please stop playing to that agenda with woke & anti woke, which obscures what is at heart a very obvious and predictable unionist tactic that appeared alongside Brexit.
“Wikipedia (not the best source, I know) has her as born in London:-“
The Times article I link to clearly states that she was, and the post I wrote says she was raised in Nigeria FROM THE AGE OF TWO WEEKS to adulthood. None of this is in any dispute.
“Please stop calling these people “woke”. It plays to their agenda, and too many people still see it as synonymous with “progressive” and anti racism (which it was in the original American sense), while they see “anti-woke” as a right wing cry.”
Sadly the most apt word for their ideology is “fascist”, and that word has been rendered so worthless by misuse that if you call anyone it, people just switch off and stop listening to you.
“Joji has links to Kezia Dugdale’s sinister, John Smith Centre for Public Service”
Yeah?
They always start out with a noble proposal, only to end up being as derogatory and indiscriminate as those they condemn.
The mark of the hypocrite is strong in this one.
Boris Johnstone repeated a poem calling Scots vermin, now that is racist,
Taxing the Scots with poll tax a year before England, Wale, and Ireland, now thats racist.
Telling the Scots nation they cannot be free or have independence of their nation,
That very racist,
It smacks of old colonial racism.
“Specifically we will, individually and collectively, conduct all-out campaign communication and organisational activities in a respectful and tolerant manner, agreeing to differ where necessary but always taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination and prejudice.”
Oh, yes. that would have worked a treat at Bannockburn.
These folk are snake oil salespeople. Buzz words,sound bites,
Pledges. These are for everybody else of course, not the creator of aforementioned inclusive respectful policy. Let’s not be silly.
A worrying thought. Are these the potential future leadership of the SNP?
Jees- She’s no the brightest is she. Accuse first , check facts later. If someone pointed out I was a working class catholic from the West Of Scotland to make a point about my background. Is this classed as bigotry?
Of course it isn’t. Unless we are now living in a world where you can’t even comment on someone’s life history. Public peoples back stories are all over Wikipedia FFS.
I despair!
Thank f**k I moved abroad, every time I get off a plane or a boat to the UK/Sco, I realise just how mad and weird the place has become.
For us on the mainland you’re just a group of islands off the Belgium coast filled with complete nutters. WM, Holyrood right down to the local level with bat-s**t SNP folk like cllr. Joji
I’m from the North-East and know what a beautiful part of the world it is, but, there is no getting away from it, politically in Scotland you’re utterly mad.
Remember.. you voted for these people over the years, they didn’t suddenly appear out of thin air..!
How come the Scots are so docile?
The “yellow vests” in France could teach you a thing or two about getting things done.
As a member of ALBA I’m optimistic and clearly want more activity than just little books; give me a dozen MacAskills, Hanveys and big fat headlines of English rage mixed with demonstrations outside of Holyrood and Bute House.
Or to use a well known Ukrainian saying, tell them to “Go f*** themselves”. 🙂
All very entertaining.
Ms. Joji seemed to miss the essential fact of what you were saying Rev., Badenoch would be unassailable by Labour, perhaps ever. If the Conservatives were smart they should be prepping her for office as fast as possible, particularly since the next PM is unlikely to survive very long given the nose-diving economy.
However the real question is, how do we create an independent Scotland that’s representative of the people? It seems that some shovels and a couple of wheelbarrows will be insufficient to clean up the mess that the Nu-SNP are creating.
Having said that it might be easier than I suspect. Ms. Joji seems wound a little too tight. Maybe on the sight of all those non-immigrants celebrating their new found freedom they’ll just throw a temper-tantrum and head south.
@ Craig at 12:34 pm
“a cease and desist letter” seems reasonable
“sue her”That too is an option after the former
I wonder where the ground floor in SNP standards lie?
Quite near the basement of humanity,I suppose
Crowd fund and sue for defamation?????
Please haul her over the legal coals. I’ll contribute to any crowd fund required.
A worrying thought. Are these the potential future leadership of the SNP?
If they are, the SNP has no future in Scotland. And doesn’t deserve one. Given most of them were Labour and “no” during the last referendum, you can see where parties they campaign for end up already. Let’s just hope their type (those who actively create division to keep themselves on the UK gravy train) are yesterday’s Scotland, however the future one comes about. If that’s not via the SNP, so be it.
We just have to hope they aren’t successful in derailing independence for generations rather than just the decade or so they have done so far. A lot of that is up to SNP members and voters though.
Just seen this particular one seems to have been UKIP in 2011.
link to twitter.com
The SNP leadership really has enabled some extremely vile infiltrators to take not only top positions in places like the NEC and policy making, but in critical ones like “discipline” which, as Stu used the word above, allows for entirely fascist rule of a party. And that’s what’s happened within the SNP since 2017 – vexatious complaints people have no chance to defend, instantly taken up by the unionist media with glee to destroy people’s lives. Sometimes leading to malicious prosecutions also indented to destroy lives as well as silence tensely pro independence people. While genuine complaints go unresponded to or even labelled as “racist”, “transphobic” etc because they’re from and about the “wrong” people.
Joji’s connection to the JSCfPS, this time last year.
link to johnsmithcentre.com
When do we think the “book burning” might start?
I’m sure the Nu-SNP will have a plan coming through very soon. maybe a ‘ bill’ rushed through parliament just like GRA (no need for debate apparently) eh, according to her that must be obeyed!
This nightmare is just starting. What they’ve done in 5 years or so is nowt to what’s to come.
GOD if yer up there big man -SOS-save our souls. I’ll go back tae the chapel- honest!
It sounds like the SNP woke, use far too much sweetener in their British Tea.
I’ve now filed formal complaints about Cllr Joji’s conduct with both Aberdeenshire Council and the Ethical Standards Commissioner.
Sue her!!!!
“Joji’s connection to the JSCfPS, this time last year.”
Cheers.
Hmmmmmmmm….. Benefit of the doubt card played by me.
Kinda hoping it doesn’t trigger accusations of racism or misogyny, but I had an observation about a lass I went on training course beside.
It was a building industry training course, and she was a young German lass who came over to London to train. Now I thought that was pretty brave on multiple levels. London could be pretty mean to wee German lassie.
I don’t know of course, but I got the impression that her bravery had it’s limits, and when you add being homesick into the mix, being a lass in a foreign country doing hard physical work (which wore out a big ugly mug like me, never mind a wee lass less than half my weight), plus being a German in London, I think she was a little overwhelmed. But that was quite natural that anybody would be.
But because she felt a bit lonely, insecure and lacking in confidence, I think she felt drawn to the camaraderie of the misfits on the course, the disruptive perpetual student time-wasting types. Language, pigeon English is another contributing factor too I think.
I know for a fact these guys held her back, got her mixed up in stuff that nearly got her kicked off the course. Not the cool rebellious stuff like drink, drugs and silly tattoos, (the idiots caused trouble for a member of the teaching staff), but the frustrating thing was you knew she was a good kid and if she hadn’t felt so vulnerable, she’d never have got involved with the other dipshits in the first place. She’d made a fool of herself, and you just knew it was out of character and she was haunted by it.
Vulnerable people get preyed upon by weirdos and misfits because weirdos and misfits know what it’s like to not have any friends when you’re going through a rough patch or your life is an emotional rollercoaster. “Anybody” can be a vulnerable person.
When I see these Wokeratti types, it’s so common to see those same weirdos and misfits primed and ready to sucker in some impressionable youngster and fill their heads with toxic nonsense. And it is toxic nonsense, because these groomers don’t want their victim making friends with “normal” people, so normal people are ridiculed for being normal. It’s a destructive cycle.
I honestly don’t mean it in a racist way at all, nor indeed misogynistic, but to me there seems a disproportionate number of coloured, ethnic, linguistically “challenged” people who find themselves recruited into these “shit stirring” communities of angry misfits, and every time I see another one, you can almost see the same conditioning. They’re so busy making enemies when they’d have a lot more fun making friends, because they end up thoroughly miserable.
I think Twitter and BTL comments make things ten times worse, because brief typed comments can be so easily misinterpreted and taken out of context… and that’s when English is your first language.
It’s a guess, but I’d bet you somebody who writes “I’d rather you think I’m fibbing.”, well, without prejudice, “might” be someone who’s not going to pick up on all the subtleties of English language.
The entire context of Rev Stu’s nuanced comment “She’s a young, black female, working class immigrant”, makes complete sense to me, but it has just gone right over Fatima’s head. She has simply not understood what Stu was saying, but she’s also been conditioned by the SNP’s Wookie Woos to be this hair triggered attack dog wannabe.
Councillor Fatima Zahra Joji, get yourself some new friends.
It’s my well intentioned advice that you need to be mixing amongst people with more life experience, and a much greater depth of experience to draw upon. You need to grow as a person, and develop your powers of intuition and analytical thinking. You are too easily led, and too easily triggered at present.
You’re going to end up miserable if you don’t heed the warning.
Rev Stu is not a racist, so you’ve got all worked up and made such a fuss about something which YOU got absolutely wrong.
Entitled brat. Hops from one position to another to climb the greasy pole. How does she square being Muslim (if she is, or is that another affectation?) with the ‘trans’ agenda? All of these people are infiltrators of a party that can give them the power they crave, and the salary and pension to match. Don’t worry, sweetie, a man in a frock will be along soon to ‘woman face’ and take your rights from you. Being black won’t save you. Don’t complain, you hypocritical woman! Don’t you dare! Ignore the eejit, Rev.
A councillor? Well, well. Once upon a time “not the full shilling” would have been the description.
I’d happily support a small crowd funding donation for you to sue Fatima of the SNP for defamation.
Wings speaks the truth the woke SNP are toxic and have ruined the party.
Corruption from the head down at all levels of government.
Fatima will be fattening up her ever expanding wasteline and pockets of tax payer funded cash on the ticket.
Send her a citation in the post for defamation. Get it up her.
Without doubt here is someone aiming to take down a blogger she displays obvious animosity too, but in attempting to a line her predjuces her justification with reality has also shown personal predjudice and zero tolerence to all others, including a broad spectrum of Scots around the world.
If the racism card wont play,
She then attempts the agism card.
This person shows great animosity and zero tolerance towards others no matter what ethic race they are.
If they comment on wings all ethics races seem to be regarded in a discrimintory fashion lumped in together by this cllr.
The racist cllr is looking to attack anyone whom comments on this blog site, and the owner of the blog site, the cllr is bias WITH predujuce in her racism toward many ethinic groups commenting here.
Well done for reporting the cllr to the proper authorities Stu.
I’ve now filed formal complaints about Cllr Joji’s conduct with both Aberdeenshire Council and the Ethical Standards Commissioner.
Good! I think the more people who face down these bullies the better. I’m sure there will be no issue crowd funding action against this individual and others who follow her baleful example.
Once a few are forced to issue grovelling apologies or defend their abusive othering in court, it will serve as an example to others.
Joji meets the SNPs very low standards that have been set these days, wild accusation then foul language and then anger when asked for the evidence.
She’s typical of what ails the SNP under Sturgeon.
I think some of you are having trouble differentiating between the creatures from Star Wars and the creatures from the Snowflake Lagoon, so perhaps some definitions are in order.
Wookie – a large unkempt creature which lives in a fictional universe which takes extreme liberties with established scientific facts.
Although they show signs of higher intelligence, they are noticeable for their volatile temperament and capacity for flying into destructive violent rages on the flimsiest of pretexts – usually some form of thwarting of their will. Their unique language – difficult to understand for outsiders – tends to sound like a lot of growls and shouts, and their tendency to childlike tantrums when they don’t get their own way makes others wary of long term dealings with them. The collective term is a grove of Wookies.
Wokie – a large unkempt creature which lives in a fictional universe which takes extreme liberties with established scientific facts.
Although they show signs of higher intelligence, they are noticeable for their volatile temperament and capacity for flying into destructive violent rages on the flimsiest of pretexts – usually some form of thwarting of their will. Their unique language – difficult to understand for outsiders – tends to sound like a lot of growls and shouts, and their tendency to childlike tantrums when they don’t get their own way makes others wary of long term dealings with them. The collective term is a groove of Wokies.
With regards to taking legal action against this or any other individual , take a look at our legal system under sturgeon’s tenure and ask yourself if you really believe that our justice system is capable of making an unbiased decision in relation to this ahem persons accusations
Remember the JUSTICE you received from the dug dale deliberate accusations of homophobia , you WON the case but were shafted , remember this ahem person is a representative of Scotland’s deviant queen head of justice ,and as such feels free to malign and impune at will
This guy getting in on the act virtually calling you out as a bigot.
“It’s striking that if you are from a minority (foreign , LGBTQ, ethnic) , you are far more likely to be the victim of Campbell’s bullying. Could be a coincidence, could be that his bigotry is intersectional ???? Either way, let’s be glad he won’t be involved in the Yes campaign”
link to twitter.com
Happy to chip in a few quid for legal action, should the Reverend deem it necessary, or potentially entertaining.
You get that sort of stuff when you’re a gunslinger, kids trying to make names for themselves, etc.
She’s being tasked with trying to get you thrown off twitter Mr Wings. Try not to rise to the bait
Have to include this one:
link to twitter.com
Cllr Fatima (Zahra) Joji @fatima_joji
Did Wings just say Kemi’s first language is “Nigerian” ?. Submit yourself for re-education oh dear ?.
12:23 pm · 15 Jul 2022·Twitter for iPhone
Er, “Nigerian” is a language in its own right if “Scots” and fking “Doric” are considered “languages”.
There’s both “Nigerian English” (local dialect) and “Nigerian Pidgin” (a creole all but vital for traversing the nation’s linguistic merry-go-round comprised of many different language families).
Perhaps instead of Stu submitting himself for “re-education” (how Viet Cong and Khmer Rouge of you …), you could ask Kemi Badenoch for some advice before making yourself look an even greater clown than you already are.
Snapshot of youth(good news/bad news)
I had the opportunity recently to ask two teenage lads if they used Twitter and I quote…”Fuck, Twitter’s for nonces and trannies”.
Says me, tongue in cheek, “that’s very transphobic”
Says them, “Fuck right off. Everyone’s transphobic”
The conversation continued, bottom line, when the adults aren’t there, they claim everyone but the creepy dudes hate what the adults are preaching in school/life. It filled me with hope. Bad news is they cannot say so unless they are in a safe place to do so, i.e. no creepy dudes or adults around. Seeking affirmation because I really am this insecure I said, “So I’m no a creepy dude then?”…”well you are a bit fucking creepy like” Life, it gives builds with one hand and destroys with the other.
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser.
Republicofscotland says: 15 July, 2022 at 6:28 pm
I don’t know if I’m missing something but I thought intersectionality is the system of showing how levels of discrimination faced by individuals with more than one political identity?
How exactly is just highlighting an individuals age, race, class and ethnicity be described as intersectional bigotry?
It sounds like either they either don’t understand what they are talking about, creating mischief, throwing buzz words in for the sake of it or all three?
Alastair says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:40 pm
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser.
You may have a point Alistair.
The SNP does appear to be full of master baiters these days …
Alastair says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:40 pm
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser
I’m sure you realise that it’s SNP getting edgy about the presence of a strong force for facts being present on twitter at a sensitive time in the life of the SNP:-)
Excerpt from UK Gov site:
link to equalities.blog.gov.uk
holymacmoses says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:10 pm
QUOTE
“She’s being tasked with trying to get [you thrown off twitter]
EFA cancelled
Mr Wings. “
Pac Man -You are correct.
Once we start labelling people and putting them in groups. It actually creates a them and us system of thought. In groups and Out groups , a common term in psychology for how individuals perceive themselves. Young/old , black/white, protestant/catholic.It actually perpetuates the prejudice it was meant to defeat.
We should see a person,not a preconceived label.Highlighting differences creates division, accepting differences does not require labelling.
Like saying white people as a sub group. When we know there are countless white people with countless opinions and beliefs. Some good, some bad. Just like all people.
This is great – Mavis Nicholson interviewing Margo MacDonald, almost 45 years ago.
link to youtube.com
She sounds like an Aberdeen version of Tatiana McGrath. Are you sure it isn’t a similar piss take?
Please watch that video at around the 15 min mark, where she talks about us being ‘protestors for far too long’. And that’s after dealing with the whole ‘identity’ issue in plain language which anyone can understand. (Would anyone accuse her of being a ‘nativist’?)
Oh, to have someone like her at the head of the SNP right now…
🙁
Would anyone accuse her of being a ‘nativist’?
If she’d been extreme enough to suggest disenfranchising 20% – or whatever other random percentage who aren’t pure bloods the nativists think should be excluded – then hell, yes.
Why do nativists feel the need to appropriate the support of people they don’t know would agree with them? Is it because they’re butt hurt that most of the movement are against them?
It certainly triggers them that Rev Stu disagrees with them: I reckon the news that Alex is lukewarm to nativist arguments will be an even bigger disappointment. Cry me a river. 🙂
A wee reminder that “most of the (indy) movement” pissed away their 2nd votes for the SNP in last year’s Scottish Parliament election, so it hardly sets a high bar for showing a collective of switched on folk that have a particularly good grasp on political things.
I reckon if you asked them what “civic nationalism” was a decent percentage would think it meant we’d be a nation full of folk driving small Honda hatchbacks.
🙂 🙂 🙂
Margo Macdonald – what a breath of fresh air. I’d love to see her telling P Murrell and N Sturgeon, Mike Russell, Angus Robertson, Alyn Smith, oh all of them, what she thought of them. They would curl up and die.
Badenoch is described by older members of the afro-carribean community in Leicester as a “coconut”. Its a fairly offensive word but I think they’re on the money this time.
So I think you’re actually wrong in your assessment of Badenoch v Starmer but frankly anyone v Starmer with a following wind has a chance of winning the next GE.
This is another beauty featuring Margo, also from 1977, with Norman Buchan and Teddy Taylor. (Don’t know the name of the chair.)
I’m only a half hour in but it’s already had some big names…
Jimmy Airlie at 10mins
John Maxton at 11 mins
George Foulkes at 20 mins
Hugh McDiarmid (famous nativist) at 22 mins
And a braw stushie between Margo and Anna McCurley at 27 mins.
It’s worth noting how eloquent the contributors are – compare with the general standard of set-piece ‘debates’ now e.g. that embarrassing shite we saw earlier in the Tory leadership bunfest on CH4.
🙂
link to youtube.com
Ellis comes across as pure raging that other people have done some research on how the ‘international community’ operate referendums, and then suggested adopting a different approach to the one taken in 2014. It’s a bizarre spectacle at times.
Who would the 20%, or whatever arbitrary number of your choosing, vote for in the first election in the newly independent state of Scotland, Andy?
Andy Ellis says:
15 July, 2022 at 9:43 pm
Would anyone accuse her of being a ‘nativist’?
If she’d been extreme enough to suggest disenfranchising 20% – or whatever other random percentage who aren’t pure bloods the nativists think should be excluded – then hell, yes.
Why do nativists feel the need to appropriate the support of people they don’t know would agree with them? Is it because they’re butt hurt that most of the movement are against them?
It certainly triggers them that Rev Stu disagrees with them: I reckon the news that Alex is lukewarm to nativist arguments will be an even bigger disappointment. Cry me a river. ?
—
Shut up ya fud. You can’t help yersel bringing the nativist pish in to every fucking thing. Stoap being a fanny and kindo get away fae yer nativist POV which seems to be your only modes operando .
If ye don’t like it feck aff back tae Leeds or wherever ye com fae ya Clown – it’s no awe aboot you ye ken.
Could SNP start off candidates as Milk Monitors or something.
She is pathetically immature and a bit of an angry fantasist.
Agreed, but the aforementioned Times article also says where she was born.
Bisous etc…
@ Big Jock
The idea of intersectionality is sound. Take for instance feminism. It is now just a springboard for middle class white females to leap frog up the career ladder through positive discrimination. The life experiences of them is totally different to the likes of Fatima Joji and she will never get the opportunities that the likes of her pal Blackman gets handed onto a plate.
Ultimately, you fly with crows, expect to be shoot at like the crows. If Joji wants to go down the route she is taking of divisive identity politics then that’s her prerogative. However, she will eventually find out the hard way that it isn’t to her long term advantage.
Ellis
What`s with this `”pure bloods ” acidity, you really have got one oar in the water. And stop your insulting anti Scots “nativists” LP, we are sick of your pretence as an indy supporter.
If you want an example of pure bloods and nativists and racists then head down to England and confront the English PM who thinks Scots are vermin and should be exterminated.
Just give your bitterness a rest as you are making a fool of yourself.
Welcome back, we need your sanity.
I’m not a conservative and I’m not a woman.
Doesn’t mean I can’t post this link.
PS Some of you may have heard the news that Bob Boswell (Don Guillerme on Twitter) has passed away, suddenly. Dunno if he ever posted here, perhaps under another name, but he was well aware of this place and was a fervent independence supporter. He will be missed.
link to conservativewoman.co.uk
Joji is yet another liability to any Indy campaign.
Oh and I am a member of the most oppressed minority on the planet right now – I am a a White Heterosexual Car Driving Scottish Male.
Ian Brotherhood says:
15 July, 2022 at 11:05 pm
It’s worth noting how eloquent the contributors are – compare with the general standard of set-piece ‘debates’ now…
I agree with you Ian, but I don’t think it’s just a question about the poor quality of modern debate.
There is a malicious attempt to manipulate modern “debates” to distort the narrative and indoctrinate the audience rather than inform them.
It is my firm conviction that Unionist arguments were steadily being exposed as groundless prejudices and delusions, while even deceptively simple points raised about Independence could not be adequately demolished. Quite simply, informed debate steadily eroded faith in the Union.
It isn’t simply bad debates we now see, (although we shouldn’t rule out a hidden agenda to have the people actually switch off and be less engaged), but the debates we are seeing through the media now have a viciously partisan agenda which they are trying to pass off as neutrality.
When people could see and hear how contrived Unionist arguments typically were, Unionism lost purchase, and ordinary people began thinking “Ach, he’s just a Unionist”. So then, there was a change, and the media had to start disguising unionism, and dressing up Unionists as ordinary members of the public without a dog in the race, when in fact they’re rampant political activists. It had to be dishonest.
Witness Orange jaikit man in the Question Time audience, or (typically) Tory Activists posing as patients let down by the NHS.
We are wrong to let this slide as simply a poor quality debate, because it is actually a far more sinister campaign of indoctrination and manipulation of the truth. It’s an illusion of debate. It is naked propaganda and political indoctrination which has preserving the UK Union as it’s hidden agenda.
This has not been caused by any decline in standards. It is wilful and deliberate. The logic of the United Kingdom crumbles under scrutiny, so it cannot afford to be scrutinised.
Sadly, to a massive extent, the manipulation is successful, and truth has a difficult job asserting itself.
I think I agree with others who suggest above, that some folk in the SNP brit-nat establishment, would like to distract Rev STU, just in case he decides to get involved in the independence campaign. I think the councillor person, is just somebody who is being used, and fed absolute unfounded pap about you.
Sadly, with each passing day, what I see is not an SNP committed to Scottish independence, but an SNP committed to pretending to push for Scottish independence.
I mean, seriously, what political strategist publicly announces IN ADVANCE, to their opponents (English government) that they already know they will not get everything they want and will have to compromise?? Nicola Sturgeon did, just a few days ago. Did she not do the negotiation 1.01 module at uni??
Either she is utterly inept in terms of political strategy, or is simply ‘going through the motions’ of pushing for indy’, with zero intention of making it happen – and certainly not without England’s ‘permission’.
The indy movement needs leadership, and we just will not get it from anybody in the SNP, or their woke-loonie obsessed ‘hingers oan’. Nicola Sturgeon just either doesn’t have it, or just doesn’t want to fight for Scottish democracy at all.
Just a charade, all these ‘papers’ she is punting. She has zero fight in her, and right now, Scotland really, really needs a fighter to play London at their own games. She really does need to up her game, stop being so soft, and start demanding what Scotland wants. Westminster literally laughs its socks off at politicians who are ‘nice’.
Oh, and just what is the point of their being televised Tory PM leadership debates, when the public will not get a vote. Not sure if the britnat media in London can see just how utterly undemocratic it is that the prime minister of the UK is being chosen by the members of just one political party, instead of the public. When Putin does something like that they all scream and shout, but her we are in 2022, and the PM is being decided by a bunch of Tory posh boys. But, but, but they say, ‘that is how our system works’. How f***ing convenient, I would say.
It is simply no good for so-called ‘journalists’ to be playing along with this utter sham of democracy, by lending some kind of pseudo legitimacy to it all.
What is the point of the TV debates? The people of this country do not get a vote. The PM will be decided by ‘The Party’.
Ian B @ 1.17
Thanks for that link .She’s spot-on
One of the ( many ) disconcerting aspects of the last 2+ years is finding yourself in agreement with people whose views you were previously diametrically opposed to eg Neil Oliver , someone I used to avoid like the proverbial . I still find his stance on Independence repellent , flecked as it is with Right Wing Unionist delusions of Imperial grandeur , but his take on the increasing clampdown of Civil Liberties under the catch-all abstraction of * Health * , the sinister encroachment of unelected Globalist entities like WHO , WEF , Pharma Corps and the truly creepy B Gates etc on our * Democracies * and brain-dead Politicians colluding in the * Gender * insanity – another target he doesn’t miss, is one I share ; as do many who likewise couldn’t stand him up until recently .
This is a reflection of the intellectual poverty of what used to be known as the Left , which , with a few notable exceptions – C Hedges , J Pilger , N Chomsky among others – has been the most vociferous in demanding serious curtailment of our personal freedoms , censorship of opposing views and uncritical acceptance of blatant Governmental propaganda re Covid and * that * current foreign conflict . The latter exposing the fraudulence of supposed Lefties like the emetic P Mason .
Excuse the – very – O/T nature of this comment . I think there IS a connection with the OP however ie the way the very idea of Truth itself has become devalued , nothing more than a malleable expedient to serve whatever agenda – individual or global – is being pursued at any given time .
Don’t sue. It was a mistake with Dugdale and would be even more so in this case.
Anyway, this is the bit from AIM that astonishes me:
“Specifically we will, individually and collectively, conduct all our campaign communication and organisational activities in a respectful and tolerant manner, agreeing to differ where necessary but always taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination and prejudice.”
Sounds fine initially. But spend just a moment’s thought of the consequences. An approach better calculated to divide the independence movement into factions of name-callers wasting their time and energy attacking each other rather than unionism could hardly be done.
The one positive is that Nicola has taken the Genie out of the bottle. Even if that wasn’t her intention.
She named a date and people now expect and demand she fulfills that pledge, however fanciful it was. She is in her last few years, and this her last chance to do the right thing.
I suspect it will be Alba and the rest of us that will do her job for her. But look at the debate two Alba Mps getting chucked out has caused.
More of this and the world will soon take notice of our predicament.
The WM position cannot and will not stand. We are not stopping until we get what we want.
Iain More @ 4:18 am
“I am a member of the most oppressed minority on the planet right now – I am a a White Heterosexual Car Driving Scottish Male.”
Yes, this appears to be so. Postcolonial theory tells us that an independence movement is built upon the solidarity of an oppressed ethnic group, in our case the Scots, a minority people in the UK who are dominated, exploited and marginalised by the neighbouring country/power base and its elite cultural hegemony and with an alien culture and ‘values’ imposed on a people.
Here the SNP has forgotten or rather now seems totally ignorant of the fact that independence is about liberating the oppressed Scottish minority ethnic group within a dominant oppressive UK polity. Instead, the SNP is now behaving much like mainstream British political parties (and social institutions) in prioritising other minority ethnic groups including accelerating their political representation which may serve to further discriminate against ethnic Scots. In other words, the SNP elite has adopted the values of the oppressor; in the colonial environment it is only “the colonizer’s values which are sovereign” (Albert Memmi).
link to wp.towson.edu
Robert Louis says: 16 July, 2022 at 6:49 am
I had mentioned in a previous post that it is possible Sturgeon to survive not getting 50% of the public vote in running on a single mandate at the next UK general election.
She will frame it that the public isn’t convinced of the merits of independence and the SNP, under her leadership, will have to try harder to convince them.
Rather than sheer incompetence, is she deliberately designing this referendum to fail?
I know this As well as the usual suspect of PayPaul Kavanagh, she has a whole plethora of useful idiots in the form of the councillor mentioned in this article to make this spin a reality.
We all have seen a true glimpse of Sturgeons personality, we have seen that while she isn’t as smart as she thinks she is, she has enough survival instinct to shape events to her liking so it’s make a completely write her off as incompetent.
As well as that, given that the rhetoric of both the SNP themselves and their supporters, they are quite happy to be in the comfort zone of framing themselves as the anti-Tory party and getting the distraction to them of having to hold an independence referendum would suit them both fine, for me it’s hard not to see the argument I made as being fanciful.
Ellis comes across as pure raging that other people have done some research on how the ‘international community’ operate referendums, and then suggested adopting a different approach to the one taken in 2014. It’s a bizarre spectacle at times.
I wouldn’t dignify your contributions with the epithet “research” Scott, particularly when you reach such spectacularly misguided opinions. If you were arguing in good faith, you’d admit that in the vast majority of self determination referendums since WW2, the franchise used was residence based, not ethnically or birth right based.
Instead, you find one or two non-analogous examples from non-self governing territories like New Caledonia and Gibraltar, and declare that it means you’ve somehow proved something. It’s like playing chess with a pigeon. Those few exceptions simply demonstrate that what I’ve said all along stands: the Scottish precedent aligns with constitutional and historic precedent, it demonstrates progressive, civic nationalism in action and that it was and is widely accepted by the movement as a whole and outside in the international community.
What you and and other nativists are proposing (and let’s not forget, you personally have said on here that you’d restrict the franchise to those born in Scotland, which would disenfranchise just under 20% of Scots voters) is a profound change, which would have implications both internationally and domestically. Even in the unlikely event we get a referendum anytime soon, there’s as much chance of your fervid Brigadoon imaginings coming true as there is of Sturgeon slapping down the TRA’s and candy floss hair Twitler Youth in her party and announcing that Joanna Cherry was right all along.
Who would the 20%, or whatever arbitrary number of your choosing, vote for in the first election in the newly independent state of Scotland, Andy?
I don’t know: that’s the beauty of democracy. We don’t generally try to make windows in to people’s souls “Scott”, hard as it might be for someone with creepy as fuck stalking tendencies like you to understand. I think it’s quite likely that lots of the 20% you and other nativists had disenfranchised wouldn’t be too happy, eh? Particularly all the pro-independence New Scots you’d happily deprive of a vote or a say, even if they’d lived here for years or decades, depending how restrictive a franchise you’d decided to use.
At least have the courage to own the effects of your regressive platform Scott: not all the nativists may be as extreme as you, but their narrative is equally repellent.
@McDuff 12.18 am
Ellis
What`s with this `”pure bloods ” acidity, you really have got one oar in the water. And stop your insulting anti Scots “nativists” LP, we are sick of your pretence as an indy supporter.
If you want an example of pure bloods and nativists and racists then head down to England and confront the English PM who thinks Scots are vermin and should be exterminated.
Just give your bitterness a rest as you are making a fool of yourself.
It’s hardly difficult to discern the meaning of the term “pure bloods” surely, since you and others are complaining about the discussion.
Your MO isn’t that hard to discern either: the usual othering of anyone who disagrees with regressive nativism as not being a “real” independence supporter. Unlike you of course, I’m not an anonymous snivelling coward bumping their gums on the internet, so there is that.
Folk will doubtless give your considered contribution all the consideration it deserves.
“A belief in Covid conspiracy theories is linked to depression and anxiety, scientists say”
link to inews.co.uk
She named a date
And that is all the first minister and leader of the scottish national party will ever do
and people now expect and demand she fulfills that pledge, however fanciful it was.
I don’t think they do. I think they are well versed in disappointment
She is in her last few years, and this her last chance to do the right thing.
That is the long and short of it.
This delaying tactic is the right thing for her.
On a different tack, recourse to the courts by this site’s editor is a complete waste of time and money.
Leave the sacrificial goat tethered to AIM.
Walk on by.
Nativistly yours.
Alastair says:
15 July, 2022 at 7:40 pm
I’m sure you know your being baited.
It’s a setup for a pile on and fundraiser.
I was thinking this watching Fatima dig deeper in as the Twitter thread went on. They want your energies focused elsewhere and have used a naive, expendable minor official for their dirty work. It’s quite an accolade that you create such fear in a major party.
“A belief in Covid conspiracy theories is linked to depression and anxiety, scientists say”
Only covidious ones?
I’d adore seeing the survey method these scienticians employed.
I see your argument on the franchise has suddenly evolved into a purely moral argument, Ellis, one that hinges on your feelings rather than comparative politics.
To sum up, there’s no internationally accepted or expected definition of the franchise as far as referenda are concerned; it is done differently everywhere, as Scott pointed out.
As I’ve said on here several times, I don’t do feelings and that means I can happily stay out of this discussion — it is now a discussion rather than a debate.
@ paul
The cynic in me says these scientists funding is guaranteed for the next year at least.
Hatuey says:
16 July, 2022 at 9:08 am
“A belief in Covid conspiracy theories is linked to depression and anxiety, scientists say”
LOL . Yea H and a belief that everything that doesn’t doesn’t fit into the little box stamped * Officially Sanctioned Thought * is ipso facto a * Conspiracy Theory * is linked to a fatuous conceit that everything can be explained by * logic * and * reason * . It can’t .
Anyway , been over all that stuff to the point of ennui .
People can and will believe what suits them . Fair enough
Paul, the actual scientific paper is linked to in the article. And it used the usual regression analysis found in most other such surveys. It was conducted over the internet, rather than on the phone, which I think is a weakness, but that’s the world we now live in.
If you believe that covid probably came from a US lab and that the truth of vaccine efficacy and health risks were intentionally hidden and distorted, then it’s probably to be expected that you would suffer from increased anxiety and depression.
Hatuey: from the linked article
Professor Volpe suspects Covid has driven false beliefs more generally, but says it is too early to say for sure.
“It is very easy to think that Covid may have worsened the prevalence and severity of delusional beliefs, including conspiracy theories. But very ample data are needed to state that,” he said.
Always the clarion call of modern research, they only thing the can firmly conclude is the need for more funding.
Poland is a rather unusual place to find a control group just now.
Kemi`s husband is called Hamish and Badenoch is in Scotland.
Has she been asked her opinions on England and Scotland dissolving the Treaty of Union.
Paul, I don’t think it’s controversial or unexpected that those who believe in what are called covid conspiracy theories would suffer from heightened anxiety or depression. There’s a more interesting question of what comes first, I think, but the study doesn’t reach any satisfactory conclusion on that.
Did anyone listen to Sturgeon’s Renewing Democracy address the other day in which she broached the question of what would happen if Scotland voted for independence in a plebiscitary election and Westminster refused to accept the result?
Spoiler alert: those of you who assumed such an outcome would mean we were independent are likely to be disappointed. Based on her answer, it would be “really serious” but for me the “really serious” thing is that she clearly thinks even at that stage Westminster’s approval would be required… she didn’t explain why.
Did anyone listen to Sturgeon’s Renewing Democracy address the other day in which she broached the question of what would happen if Scotland voted for independence in a plebiscitary election
Apart from the payroll. I would suspect no.
and Westminster refused to accept the result?
For the leader of a scottish national party with independence at the heart of its constitution, the first minister does not seem familiar with england’s historical and present approach to decolonisation. (Check catherine elkins Legacy of Violence: A History of the British Empire.)
Perhaps the first minister in holyrood should read a little less crappy fiction in the time available.
I will check that book out, Paul. I prefer audiobooks these days though, so hopefully…
audio version from within the beast:
link to amazon.co.uk
Hatuey,
Just out of interest, why do you prefer audiobooks?
They must require as much engagement as analogue ones.
I just bought it on Apple, 36 hours…
Paul, I prefer audiobooks because I listen to them when driving. I drive a lot, often about 20 hours per week.
Reading books knocks hell out my eyes too. For some reason reading computer screens doesn’t.
Anyway, looks pretty good in terms of reviews.
Happy to help!
Stu, you did the right thing reporting her to the relevant authority. In a sane country I would have said sue her arse off, but Scotland is no longer a sane country. These people have ruined it for me and countless others. Remember when we used to think unionists were vile?
“If you were arguing in good faith, you’d admit that in the vast majority of self determination (sic) referendums since WW2, the franchise used was residence based, not ethnically or birth right based.” – Ellis
—
I’ve not been arguing, just explaining with facts where you were wrong.
2014 franchise is deid, the legislation that enabled it expired in 2015 – get over it.
Council of Europe’s ‘Code of Good Practice on Referendums’ is your friend, oor friend, a’body’s friend. You should try reading it sometime.
You could also try reading the Vienna Convention on the Succession of States in Respect of Treaties, to settle your angst about the international commyoonity finding out about Scotland for likesy the very first time ever.
Also, you really should be embarrassed at trying to relegate someone’s birthright to a moral issue where I & others should wheesht in case the neighbours get offended.
The SNP will schism it is too broad a coalition to hold. Swinney at one end is a dry as dust Libertarian who wants Scotland to be a small state capitalist hellhole. At the other end are Marxist Socialists.
Whether it happens post a Yes, or post Independence Day it will happen. I wouldn’t put it past Swinney to make a bid to be Tory leader. The Left have been promising to go off and take Labour back to it’s roots and make it electable again.
In fact the SNP has already schismed over women’s rights. Starting with the formation of the ISP and then latterly Alba both filled with ex SNP people. If a Sturgeonite woke rump tries to carry on it will be a small minority. I can see lots of MSPs who disagree with the control freakery and wokery jumping ship too.
New opportunities will spawn new parties. It may see the extinction of old ones. The FibDems, SLab could both go under starved of their London pocket money.
Hatuey.
In the American Senate, Question put to Dr Robert Malone, this week,
The cllr in question by the way did not just verbally make an attack on Stu, if you go back and read it, the cllr is including all commentators,
Which is interesting because it is racist in its group thought, in their mind they have placed commentators together regardless of nationality and presuming that all are white Scots.
Commentators on here are wide and varied, and many be inter- married with other minority groups from other countries,
My brother is married to an African, and I have two very cute nieces.
Wings is tolerant of all people, from all walks of life, from across the world not just Scotland.
This cllr has predjudces to attack the wings blog site and anyone that comments here by default, rather makes a point of attacking us all as scum.
I myself was not born here as I have mentioned many times, and many others of us are not born here, but the one thing we have in common is that we allwant Scotland to be an independent country,
This is what she is has focused on attacking not just Stu Campbell. As she searches for other reasons for hatred such as ageism.
Her racist prejudiced attack is on all of us and she includes all of us in her comments as a nation of people. Ethnic minorities included.
Paul.
Hatuey.
I meant to say, I watched the American Senate put questions to DR Robert Malone on youtube.
Muscleguy,
When independence happens I could not imagine Scotland in general wishing to maintain or keep any of those presently existing parties that have obfuscated Scottish independence on a daily bases.
In fact They actually need to go before we gain independence, because any negotiations under them taken on our behalf would just be another parcel of Rogues selling Scotland down the river in compromises, as NS has already said on Beeb.
James Che @2.30pm.
The Britnat parties at Holyrood could’ve reduced toa rump if Sturgeon backed Salmond’s SNP constituency vote and List vote for the Alba party, but she didn’t because she wanted to maintain the status quo at Holyrood, a big tow-fingers in yir face to the indy masses.
As you say the Fifth Columns at Holyrood will do everything in their powers to thwart an indy Scotland, if we do ditch this rancid union, they’ll need to change, though as with the SNP a thread of Westminster useful idiots runs through them, who will report back to those in charge South of the border.
Scotland has its fair share of deep state functionaries, one of the PM candidates Tom Tugendhat is one a Bilderberger, and a member of the European Leadership Network.
His brother Chris is a well known member of the Henry Jackson Society and the Henry Jackson Initiative.
Muscleguy @ 1.31
Everything points to Sturgeon setting things up to fail. Conspiracy theorists will no doubt say she is following instructions and will now be approved for her next job.
Others might say she has burned herself out with prevarication and has trapped herself in a corner.
Either way, the writing is on the wall, and the fall will come about. She may have escaped to a new job by then. Those not in the SNP, (and some presently in the SNP) who see the inevitable coming, are happy to give apparent support, as they don’t want to be blamed when it all comes crashing down, and it will hasten an end to a very sad chapter on Scottish politics.
Without Sturgeon, the SNP will have no focus other than the bitterness against Alex Salmond by certain senior figures, and the weird policies they have draped round their necks.
As a party of independence they will have no credibility for a long while, if ever. Their legacy will be having reduced Scotland to ruin and preventing independence for years to come.
Andy Wightman (remember him) is now living in a cabin in the woods.
Here’s a wee update on what he’s been doing.
“THE way Andy Wightman views the land is different from how most of us see it. As we sit in front of his log cabin in the woods and take in the view, all I see is the steep plunge of vegetation down to the river below, sun glinting off green leaves, the dazzling panorama of the mountains ahead. But Wightman also sees something else. He reads it like a map of ownership. He talks about how Alcan, for instance, own even the water that runs below, and officially “no one else is allowed to take that water without their permission, because this water is exclusively for their hydroelectric plant to make aluminium.””
link to 12ft.io
I’ve not been arguing, just explaining with facts where you were wrong. “Scott”
You haven’t done that though. You’ve come up with a few non-comparable examples and declared victory. It’s the rhetorical equivalent of the side that’s losing taking their ball home.
2014 franchise is deid, the legislation that enabled it expired in 2015 – get over it.
And yet the fact remains that if there should ever be another referendum, the starting point will be the precedent already set. It is of course possible that the parties will negotiate different terms than they did under the Edinburgh Agreement, and few – whether domestically or internationally – would have any issue with that.
If the SC finds the SG can hold referendums whenever it likes, then the SG can do whatever it has a mandate from the Scottish people to do. Who knows, they might even support your regressive nativist views and vote to exclude all New Scots from voting. That of course would be a very different Scotland from that envisaged during the 2012-14 campaign, and not nearly so attractive to many who supported and voted Yes then.
Also, you really should be embarrassed at trying to relegate someone’s birthright to a moral issue where I & others should wheesht in case the neighbours get offended.
I’ve certainly got no cause for embarrassment. There are moral issues here, as was pointed out in Rev Stu’s original critique of blood and soil ethnic nationalism. The ones who should be embarrassed are those pushing the nativist mantra.
Standing shoulder to shoulder with the political right isn’t something likely to appeal to most Scottish voters, even if it has captured the attention of some on the political fringes, generally those exhibiting a huge cross over with conspiracy theorists, covidiots, climate change deniers, “Great Reset” true believers, Treaty of Union monomaniacs and those who insist Scotland is a colony.
Thankfully they don’t represent more than a small percentage of the movement, however baleful their influence.
Vestas says: 15 July, 2022 at 10:32 pm
The emphasis on who is making these derogatory insults is old and out of touch with modern society.
What is the different between this insult and this Tory scum that is screamed by individuals up here? They have nothing to offer or any alternatives apart from shouting out any conversation.
Individuals like this in any community or political movement is best ignored.
I see your argument on the franchise has suddenly evolved into a purely moral argument, Ellis, one that hinges on your feelings rather than comparative politics. Hatuey
THere’s always been a moral argument against the nativist narrative. Rev Stu pointed that out in his initial fisking of the concept last year. The idea both morally and politically repugnant, but also likely to be self defeating. It is also wildly out of step with our own 2014 precedent, and the precedents historically and constitutionally.
From the point of view of comparative politics, the nativists arguments come up empty, because “Scott”s” valiant attempts to show other countries have done the same are quite simply false: his examples refer to non-self governing territories, so there is no true comparison. Scotland isn’t New Caledonia, Timor L’Este or Gibraltar, whatever Alf Baird and those he has persuaded think.
If the UN was persuaded Scotland was in a colonial situation, we’d know about it and they’d be taking the same measures to report on our situation as they do on places like New Caledonia. Alf Baird writing his article over and over again, and a few dozen people in the movement clapping like performing seals from the cheap seats doesn’t make his case any more convincing.
To sum up, there’s no internationally accepted or expected definition of the franchise as far as referenda are concerned; it is done differently everywhere, as Scott pointed out.
That’s true. There’s no internationally accepted definition of a people, or what constitutes a majority, or a clear question in a referendum either. There is however the example of all the other self determination referendums in recent history. No two situations will be exactly alike, but that doesn’t mean international law, courts and opinion won’t be judged by precedent, as well as the unique circumstances of each case.
The problem nativists have isn’t just a moral one (because they are morally wrong), or even just a political one domestically (because their plans could very well cost us more votes than they gain, so they represent a clear and present danger to the movement even without a referendum due to the corrosive impact of their regressive nationalism on the cause).
One of the biggest issues is the international impact of seeking to exclude a large percentage of non-native Scots from participation in the process of self determination, because it is without precedent, will be seen as regressive and contrary to the 2014 pattern which was widely held up as an example of best practice, and could endanger the chances of international recognition.
Most people in the movement can see therefore discern the negative impact of franchise restriction on a practical as well as a moral level. It’s a shame the same can’t be said of the (thankfully relatively small) basket of deplorables who punt their nativist snake oil in here.
New opportunities will spawn new parties. It may see the extinction of old ones. The FibDems, SLab could both go under starved of their London pocket money. – Muscleguy
Surely that’s always been one of the biggest positives of independence? Post independence, the new Scottish parliament won’t be beholden to the old parties. I’m sure the SNP will still be around, but anyone who thinks it will be able to exert the kind of dominance it has over the past decade or so is living in cloud cuckoo land.
I can’t wait to see what new parties evolve, and whether we end up with new entrants. I hope we move to an Irish style STV system: that’ll put the wind up the entitled larger parties.
That being said, I think those postulating that everything will be different are in for a rude awakening too. 25-30% of Scots will still reliably vote for a conservative party. 5-10% will probably vote for a centrist/liberal party, 5-10% for the Greens.
The centre left doubtless has room for more than just a neo SNP and NuLab old wine in new bottles. Doubtless there will be smaller fringe parties of the left and right, and possibly even some diehard yoons campaigning to rejoin Global UK / Empire 2.0.
Who knows, we might even get some sectional / interest group realted parties representing pensioners, or the isles, or rural communities? If the nativists aren’t careful, perhaps there will be a New Scots party: that’d be poetic justice if nothing else. 🙂
Ms Joji is out of her depth. She is typical of the new breed of SNP “politicians” – rapidly promoted because of her wokist credentials but without political skills or experience, blundering around public life, shooting herself in the foot when not falling into traps.
Republicofscotland.
Aye NS could have viewed equivalent to the queen of Scotland and held in highest esteem IF she had stayed faithful to the Scottish independence.
As it is she is viewed dimly if at all as anything other than a puppet for global ideology that does not work for any Scot.
I was watching the independence march in Wrexham for Wales, and it occurred to me how strong a yes movement would be heard accross Britain and in the wider world if Scotland and Wales actually joined forces literally, carrying our own flags in each others marches,
Maybe Cornwall would join up.
Wales is catching up with Scottish independence pretty quick,
“One of the biggest issues is the international impact of seeking to exclude a large percentage of non-native Scots from participation in the process of self determination (sic), because it is without precedent, will be seen as regressive and contrary to the 2014 pattern which was widely held up as an example of best practice, and could endanger the chances of international recognition.” – Ellis
—
Relax Oinky, one ‘international community’ has a ‘Code of Good Practice on Referendums’ which explicitly states that a referendum franchise can be based on a register of Births, Deaths & Marriages; Self-determination referendums seem the most appropriate for doing so.
Further, if/when the ‘Treaty of Union’ is annulled, the international community most certainly will recognise the event and implications, especially if Scotland lays claim to NATO membership via the Convention on Succession of States in Respect of Treaties, having been a party to all treaties agreed by UK Parliament.
Franchise, an interesting word when you look up the meaning.
” The problem nativists have isn’t just a moral one (because they are morally wrong) ”
What do you think we’re engaged in here , some kind of exercise in proving how nice we are , how compliant with – your idée fixe – the International Community we can be ?
This is a STRUGGLE for National Liberation , the renewal of our status as an Independent Nation , not a fckn Boy Scouts Jamboree
It may not be an armed struggle , but it’s just as Politically difficult as one and our opponents are armed to the teeth with an arsenal of weapons we simply don’t have access to eg an entirely hostile/unscrupulous MSM and Political Class , recourse to Judicial / Police leverage and a Security Service recently empowered to do whatever the fuck it likes in it’s * defence of the Realm * with total impunity .
You can wave your tattered flag of * fairness from an imagined moral high-ground if you like but you’re starting to resemble the apocryphal Japanese soldier still fighting a war that ended years previously .
And FFS stop using Stu’s name in just about every comment you make . Makes you look like a schoolboy trying to impress his teacher
“I was watching the independence march in Wrexham for Wales, and it occurred to me how strong a yes movement would be heard accross Britain and in the wider world if Scotland and Wales actually joined forces literally, carrying our own flags in each others marches,
Maybe Cornwall would join up.
Wales is catching up with Scottish independence pretty quick,”
James Che.
Interesting idea James, however the media is Britnat to its core so very little coverage there I’m afraid. Wales is also further along in the incomer road than Scotland, the 2011 census (more than decade old now) showed that 21% of the Welsh population were born in England, its probably a bit more than that now, I wonder how a ten years residency in a constitutional vote on Wales leaving the union would work out, maybe Wales is too far gone.
As for Scotland, with other countries not giving incomers a constitutional vote, I think a ten years residency for voting on Scottish independence is a good way to go.
Andy Ellis @ 3:27 pm
“To sum up, there’s no internationally accepted or expected definition of the franchise as far as referenda are concerned; it is done differently everywhere, as Scott pointed out.”
What is accepted internationally is that there is of course a significant difference between a NATIONAL franchise and a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise. For any NATIONAL referendum/election we should really try to avoid using a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise in which anybody from anywhere simply by having an address in Scotland may register to then vote to give away the sovereignty of ‘Scots’.
The other aspect here that is also viewed as important is that Self-Determination of ‘a people’ relates to a particular group of people as defined by their distinct history, heritage, culture, language, ethnicity and common suffering, oppression, exploitation etc.
Robert Hughes @4.14pm.
Well said Robert, the moral issue is superceded by a logical one I think, if we opened the franchise to everybody (unlike other nations) it would be simple for a flood of registrations from down South to occur in Scotland, second home owners who very rarely live in Scotland would also be admitted, and it would be quite easy for the MoD to pour military personnel into the country.
Its not about bigotry or the crudely repeated nativism, its about logical and fair way to encompass those who care about Scotland getting the vote on this constitutional question.
This is a STRUGGLE for National Liberation , the renewal of our status as an Independent Nation , not a fckn Boy Scouts Jamboree
Indeed. And we’re supposed to be showing that “our” nationalism is better than other, previously espoused types of nationalism. We’re supposed to be an example of how civic nationalism can lead to self determination without violence, or the armalite in one hand and the ballot in the other.
That doesn’t mean we can expect the other side to roll over for us, or that we don’t have struggle. It doesn’t mean we have to pull our punches, or rely solely on happy clappy positivity to waft us to the sunny uplands of independence without doing the actual work. It also doesn’t mean we have to stoop to regressive blood and soil nativism and disenfranchising up to 20% of the voting base because we lost last time.
You can wave your tattered flag of * fairness from an imagined moral high-ground if you like but you’re starting to resemble the apocryphal Japanese soldier still fighting a war that ended years previously .
Says you. So what? I’ll be here arguing in favour of the merits of civic nationalism as long as there are nativists setting out their repugnant, regressive anti-immigrant views. Populists need to be tackled: whether Law and Justice in Poland, Orban in Hungary, Erdogan in Turkey, or ethnic nationalists here. If anyone is fighting a lost cause its the nativists, not me.
The kind of Scotland they want to build isn’t one I want to see realised, but I’m pretty confident it will never come come to pass, because either an independent Scotland will be a civic nationalist project, or it will never happen. Nativists are making the latter more likely, even if they remain a minority in the movement.
And FFS stop using Stu’s name in just about every comment you make . Makes you look like a schoolboy trying to impress his teacher
I do it because it’s such a glaring example of why they are out of step with mainstream opinion, but also because I know it triggers the nativists no end. Way to prove my point. 🙂
The biggest, And I mean big as in massive Elephant in the room is how many people swan past the fact the Scots were never invited to join the 1707 treaty of the union, according to history records on UK parliament site 2022.
There either laughing at the Scots for being taken for a long ride of nothing more than propaganda for 300 years.
Or they are pointing out that the Scots do not need to ask THEM for independence.
“Indeed. And we’re supposed to be showing that “our” nationalism is better than other, previously espoused types of nationalism. We’re supposed to be an example of how civic nationalism can lead to self determination without violence”
This is a bit wayward we’re not trying to produce exceptional nationalism, we just want the right to, like ever other nation have to determine who can and cannot vote on this constitutional matter.
We don’t need to set examples and lead the way on civic nationalism, we’re not trying to put Scotland on a pedestal for the world to admire when it comes to constitutional matters, you need to get this utopian nonsense out of your head.
….if we opened the franchise to everybody (unlike other nations)
Which “other nations” would that be then? Can you point to examples of all the nations which have held self determination referendums that didn’t use inclusive, residence based criteria? (And no, instances involving non-self governing territories are NOT the same, however often “Scott” argues otherwise…)
…. it would be simple for a flood of registrations from down South to occur in Scotland, second home owners who very rarely live in Scotland would also be admitted, and it would be quite easy for the MoD to pour military personnel into the country.
So we have to abandon civic nationalism because some things *might* happen…? Riiiiight…. How many second home owners are there is Scotland? How many voted in #indyref1? How many of them would qualify to vote by dint of residence, or being on the General Election register? You think the UK MoD has thousands of personnel just sitting around it can ship north specifically to vote No in an indyref? Seriously? That seems…..improbable….at best. Even if it happened, it’d be pretty obvious and seen as a transparent attempt to stack the odds: I doubt international observers would accept it as fair.
Its not about bigotry or the crudely repeated nativism, its about logical and fair way to encompass those who care about Scotland getting the vote on this constitutional question.
You may think so, but I’m sure many others – including an awful lot of independence supporting New Scots you’re planning to disenfranchise – would disagree. The nativist narrative is neither logical, nor fair. You’re advocating for the disenfranchisement of many people who care deeply about Scotland becoming independent, whilst handing ammunition to our opponents and standing shoulder to shoulder with regressive, populist ideals. “Bollocks to that!” as a wise man once said. 🙂
“Which “other nations” would that be then?”
One recent example that springs to mind, and I posted it in here was the Scots guy who lives in Denmark whose wife has lived in the country since she was fourteen yet she still isn’t fully entitled to vote on constitutional matters, it can be found on Ian Lawson blog.
“So we have to abandon civic nationalism because some things *might* happen”
Better safe than sorry, we’re dealing with one of the most nefarious parliaments in the world that has interfered in election in other nations such as Kenya, it would be foolish not to think that Westminster wouldn’t go to extremes to keep Scotland in this union.
“You may think so, but I’m sure many others – including an awful lot of independence supporting New Scots you’re planning to disenfranchise – would disagree.”
Well if they care about Scotland enough then they’ll understand on this one particular vote.
We have to bear in mind when comparing what type of franchise we want in Scotland on this very important constitutional matter is that other nations are sovereign independent states, so enfranchising incomers and giving them he vote will NOT affect those countries sovereignty, in a way that it would affect Scotland’s on leaving this union.
“You’re advocating for the disenfranchisement of many people who care deeply about Scotland becoming independent” – Ellis
—
Not permanently, just for one day. It’s considered good practice to do so among the ‘international community’ ka Council of Europe.
Vote No if you want, Andy. You can tell your wife how it feels, if she misses out.
Advocate again for D&G, Borders, Orkney, Shetland, Bass Rock etc to secede from Scotland anaw, if you want.
Shout for the diaspora to be both included and excluded from the vote, depending on which day it is, if you want.
Dismiss the Treaty of Union & Claim of Right Act 1689 as irrelevant, if you want.
Keep projecting your own contradictions, something you seem to have no control over.
Republicofscotland.
Statistics imply that a good per portion of residence in Wales are English born, as are a good per portion of people in Scotland,
However on that subject we see many English for Scottish independence in the rallies and marches, Wales I presume would be much the same,
As in 2014 many people from England were on the Scottish sites at that time asking could they join us if we gained our independence, even NS mentioned and took note of this phenomena.
Many others were suggesting stretching an altering the Scottish border so they too would come under the jurisdiction of Scotland.
Although many people, mainly the media and politicians…. try inciting hatred between the Scots and the English. Often using topics such as sport, religion and finances to instigate rivalary between the two nations.
But the overall view I am seeing, is how very discontented, disconnected and forgotten The English, and people living in England feel compared to the their Parliament and the bubble of London with wealthier counties of fancy houses that the rich commute to and from at a whim,
The real people across Britain actually have more in common than the deliberately propagated advertised divides.
There are those that are susceptible to the propaganda I do not deny, the same can be said of Some Scots that still believe the incitement to dislike the other nation,
Neither of the four nations people is a accurate description or replication of what the media and politicians Portray.
I wonder how many in a discontented England on seeing Scotland and Wales join forces politically for independence would soon be, only to willing to leave behind the the England that No longer looks after its people.
I bet Cornwall would join, they have been crying out to be recognised for a very long time.
Muscleguy says:
16 July, 2022 at 1:31 pm
The SNP will schism it is too broad a coalition to hold …
In fact the SNP has already schismed over women’s rights. Starting with the formation of the ISP and then latterly Alba both filled with ex SNP people.
Let’s cut out the trying to rewrite history malarkey. You know very well like the rest of us that the ISP just like Alba was not formed by people who had left the SNP over women’s rights or any other sort of moral bloody high ground whatsoever, but had more than a few of its prime movers being those who had left the party after falling out with it over what could charitably be called “personality clashes”, or less charitably too many piggies fighting over the swill trough in the eyes of the party’s detractors.
Some of them had barely been in the SNP five minutes and their fast track promotions c/o central office diktat for “tactical reasons” mightily pissed off branch members that had struggled for years for the cause, been spat at or worse going round the doors or manning stalls, and now were seeing outsiders – and in some cases well known political opponents of Scottish nationalism – being handed on a silver platter the rewards of others’ hard work for little thanks.
Some had left in the huff because they hadn’t been accorded the party promotions they felt they deserved. That few to none followed their “principled” exit in solidarity appear to have awarded them no sense of perspective. Even Tommy Sheridan had some when he left the Scottish Socialist Party.
Much as I despise the SNP and what it has become, the squabbling anti-SNP Scottish nationalist factions are long overdue a good long look at themselves and some true honesty about their motives for what they are doing.
Is it about community and country? Or is it revenge? Or is it trying to get back on the gravy train – perhaps hoping if they make big enough nuisances of themselves the SNP will buy off their vote splitting with nomination for a safe council/Holyrood/Parliamentary seat again? Whatever the case, they’re a million miles away from living their pipe dreams
Right now, the sheer bloody minded counter-productiveness of the ISP, Alba,
I Can’t Believe It’s Not The Free Scotland PartySovereignty, etc. makes the majority of the Scottish population, let alone electorate, cynical as to their motives – those who even care less about their existences.The squabbling array of tinpot clan chiefs waxing lyrical about uniting the tribes to a higher purpose when they cannot even unite among themselves is one thing. It’s when they have clearly not the slightest intention of uniting and rather of fighting each other to the death over the scraps from Sturgeon’s table that make many looking on to think “why bother?” – if that sounds snide, you only have to look at their disastrous Holyrood and council election results to date for the proof.
The anti-SNP Scottish nationalist forces will unite, or they will die as irrelevences to all but their own egos – and right now the smart money is firmly on the latter.
James Che @5.54pm.
James if I recall correctly around 72% of the people from the rest of the UK who “resided” in Scotland voted against Scottish independence. I put resided in inverted commas, because resided covers a broad base on duration of residency.
With regards to the 2014 indyref.
“There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken.
And if they cast their ballots in line with the findings of the Edinburgh University study,
more than 300,000 of them will have voted No.”
I’m pretty confident that, that number of incomers is up now its 2022, and that we wouldn’t see much of a difference in voting intentions of this particular group.
What is accepted internationally is that there is of course a significant difference between a NATIONAL franchise and a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise. For any NATIONAL referendum/election we should really try to avoid using a LOCAL GOVERNMENT franchise in which anybody from anywhere simply by having an address in Scotland may register to then vote to give away the sovereignty of ‘Scots’.
If we use a UK GE franchise, all British citizens over 18 will get a vote, plus British overseas voters, resident Irish citizens, resident qualifying Commonwealth citizens, and nobody else.
If we use Scottish parliament or council franchise, British citizens over 16 get the vote, British overseas voters are excluded, resident Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens qualify, anyone “legally resident” qualifies, as do convicted prisoners detained in prison serving 12 months or less.
Which franchise do you actually propose we use for either referendums or plebiscitary elections then Alf?
And if you’re proposing to change the franchise from the 2014 pattern, or that used in other comparable self determination referendums, which categories of “New Scots” are you proposing are excluded, on what grounds, and how many people do you think that will disenfranchise?
Do you think there is any danger that introducing franchise restrictions could lose us votes and/or persuade existing or potential Yes voters to change their minds? How will we know if one group cancels the other out?
The other aspect here that is also viewed as important is that Self-Determination of ‘a people’ relates to a particular group of people as defined by their distinct history, heritage, culture, language, ethnicity and common suffering, oppression, exploitation etc.
The trouble is though Alf, as the Canadian Supreme Court observed in its discussion of the Clarity Act, there is no definition of “a people”. In Quebec in 1995, around 92.5% of the total population voted in the referendum, and they cam agonisingly close to winning: 54,000 votes out of 5 million, with 49.42% voting for independence. Interestingly, the real indigenous “peoples” of Quebec: the Inuit and Cree voted overwhelmingly against independence for Quebec, by 96% and 96.3% respectively.
As far as I’m aware, the definition of “people” used in most of the self determination referendums which weren’t explicitly colonial, included non-native born people. The referendums in the Baltic States didn’t exclude Russophone residents – most of whom had been planted by the Soviets to ensure their control post 1945. The former Yugoslav republics didn’t disenfranchise those born in other republics. The Quebecois and Catalans didn’t exclude those not born there either.
Of course, you may not be one of the extremists arguing for the exclusion of anyone who can’t prove they were born here. Perhaps you’re a diluted nativist and only wan’t to exclude a certain smaller percentage based on an unrealistically long residence criteria that no other country has used?
Nativism and populism are in the end twa cheeks o’ the same erse, eh Alf? A Scot arguing for the exclusion of those not born here from the demos is functionally and morally indistinguishable from Orban or Kaczy?ski in Poland railing against immigrants there. I don’t much fancy the company you keep.
The original blog article is a stoater o’ a ready made script fur Shauny Boy.
Let’s be absolutely honest about the franchise.
There is one group of incomers that will actively try to stop independence. The English! We can’t pretend it’s not an issue. We will never persuade the majority of them to stop being British, and become Scottish citizens.
This is not exclusion. Because as we know most other incomers don’t carry such baggage. So what do we do? Do we pretend it’s not an issue and never get independence, that Scots voted for.Or do we discuss who gets to vote?
As an indigenous Scot. I welcome all people to our nation. What I don’t accept is their right to veto what Scots vote for.
“Perhaps you’re a diluted nativist and only wan’t (sic) to exclude a certain smaller percentage based on an unrealistically long residence criteria that no other country has used?” – Ellis
Gibraltar and the ‘not less than 10 years’ in referendum of 2002 says hello.
If that “voluntary union” referendum isn’t comparable to ours, may God strike me down.
QED
“There is one group of incomers that will actively try to stop independence. The English! We can’t pretend it’s not an issue. We will never persuade the majority of them to stop being British, and become Scottish citizens.”
Big Jock.
Significant or not, around 82% of folk who voted no in 2014 indyref identified in a religious manner as following the Church of England, by that large percentage figure, I suspect that the group was incomers from the rest of the UK.
One recent example that springs to mind, and I posted it in here was the Scots guy who lives in Denmark whose wife has lived in the country since she was fourteen yet she still isn’t fully entitled to vote on constitutional matters, it can be found on Ian Lawson blog.
Not even REMOTELY comparable. However often it is pointed out to hard of thinking nativists, the franchise used to gain independence (in the overwhelming number of cases based on residence criteria, NOT citizenship, birth or ethnic criteria) is NOT THE SAME as the franchise already independent countries use for voting on constitutional matters.
A people who have not yet gained their independence don’t HAVE citizenship criteria yet, because that only happens after they win independence and can decide who qualifies, what the criteria are and issue passports to those who elect to take them. That’s how it works.
We don’t impose future citizenship criteria on existing residents because we have no idea how many residents will become citizens. Similarly, if you were arguing that ONLY future citizens should get a say, you’d logically have to argue that Scots born currently residing abroad – and possibly their children and grandchildren – should be able to apply for inclusion in any new register of voters you were going to put together specifically for the one day of the vote.
The Generalitat in Catalonia compiled a new electoral register for the (abortive) referendum in 2017, and Catalans abroad were allowed to register to vote. Relatively few did so however, probably more due to the fact the referendum was seen by many as doomed to fail. I have a suspicion more Catalans abroad are pro-independence than their Scots equivalents however.
Well if they care about Scotland enough then they’ll understand on this one particular vote.
Some might, and some might not. The question is how many are you prepared to piss off, and how will you know how well or badly the nativist narrative is playing? My default position is to support independence, but not under absolutely any conditions. It’s good to be open minded, but not so open minded your brain falls out.
The prospect of independence gained by pandering to the worst instincts of regressive, blood and soil nativists isn’t one I view with equanimity. It’s not going to help win independence if you move the goalposts to exclude some % of New Scots to offset the imbalance between native and non-native voters, if you alienate as many or more existing independence voters.
Gibraltar and the ‘not less than 10 years’ in referendum of 2002 says hello.
If that “voluntary union” referendum isn’t comparable to ours, may God strike me down.
QED
Gibraltar isn’t a country, it’s a British Overseas Territory. Gibraltar isn’t like Scotland. New Caledonia isn’t like Scotland. Don’t make me find my toy farm animals to do my Father Ted and Dougal “Small…..Far away…..” act.
No matter how many times you try to claim colonial situations are the same as Scotland (or Quebec or Catalonia, or indeed all the other non-colonial self determination struggles discussed over the past months) it becomes no more convincing, still less true.
There is no God, which is just as well, as if there was you’d be a black, crinkled heap.
Probably better not to used QED when you haven’t actually proven something. I thought you were supposed to be some kind of scientist?
“Not even REMOTELY comparable.”
It was just an example, further reading
link to en.wikipedia.org
“if you were arguing that ONLY future citizens should get a say,”
Actually I’m not adverse to those who have an active ten years residency in Scotland having the vote, that shows a bit of commitment to Scotland.
“The question is how many are you prepared to piss off,”
We’ll go around all night like this if you keep this up, if the they care about Scotland what does it matter missing out on one vote.
“The prospect of independence gained by pandering to the worst instincts of regressive, blood and soil nativists isn’t one I view with equanimity”
You are of course entitled to your opinion and your hopes of getting a raise out of those who don’t agree with your point of view by using such language. Most level headed folk will dismiss it as petulant nonsense as I do.
“We don’t impose future citizenship criteria on existing residents because we have no idea how many residents will become citizens.” – Ellis
“It’s not going to help win independence if you move the goalposts to exclude some % of New Scots to offset the imbalance between native and non-native voters” – also Ellis
—
Has tha’ nowt non-alcoholic in t’fridge?
Just ignore them all now Rev..
They’re just trolling, trying to get you banned, again.
Republicofscotland.
Big Jock.
The issue is self explanatory when we look at statistics and the bigger picture.
Andy is right also when he speaks of people that can and often are planted prior to elections to bring a skewed vote result, such as Baltic States.
So there needs to be a mechanism for making sure this does not happen in the next independence vote, IT was Boris Johnstone whom said the Russians had interfered in the last Scottish referendum not so long ago on television.
So there needs to be a time limit of residency perhaps of ten years to ensure no interference from those quarters.
Between what Boris johnstone, and Andy Ellis has pointed out, besides your selfs and many others here about plants and interference in Scottish elections it makes sense to have a generous but limited residency of perhaps 10 years.
Some will pine at missing out on the independence vote, but to ensure accuracy and no interference from China, Russia, EU, or any other country including the rest of UK politics it has to be,
Andy.
Thank you , you have been wise in pointing out to us ( ie the Baltic States ) how any of these foreign states could interfere in our vote if it was not in their best interests and there was not a limited residency Franchise.
Big Jock.
Republicofscotland.
Also thank you for explaining this from a different point of view.
Republicofscotland @ 5:43 pm
“There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken”
If you factor in ‘extraction’, the figure will be much higher, possibly approaching 1 million overall. Which might suggest that perhaps half or more of the ‘No’ vote (incl EU citizens) comprised people who do not primarily hold to a Scottish identity/ethnicity. This also suggests the ‘No’ vote to be ethnically driven to quite a significant extent.
As James Kelman said, ‘if you want to know your (national) identity look at who your relatives are’.
Let’s get something absolutely straight.
Independence is our destiny, our decision by whatever route that works.
If it is by a referendum then it’s our referendum not for anybody else’s to either comment control or interfere!
She has obviously defamed you.
But according to the rotten to the core Scottish justice, she doesn’t know she has defamed you so she can’t be held liable.
There is no justice in Scotland.
Who can mind when aw they good cunts of the “international community” rocked up on these shores to enforce “gold standard” democratic practices, and pulled up and sanctioned the UK for that Better Together and Project Fear bullshit…
Ya ken, jist like this most obvious attempt to influence a load of both European minded Scots, and EU citizens residing in Scotland to vote a certain way… Na? me neither…
link to twitter.com
Handy as fook that aw those EU citizens enfranchised for the IndyRef vote still have their EU citizenship so could / can always move elsewhere in the EU now that voting NO turned out so shit.
They had that backup option if it turned out they were gonnae get played, but not so lucky for the actual Scots though…
It was just an example, further reading
I’m not sure what it is you’re finding hard to grasp. The two things aren’t the same. It is generally accepted that the voting franchise for a self determination referendum will be residence based: that’s the pattern in virtually all the referendums you care to name. That means they generally don’t require any residence period, or if they do it’s a short period like 24 months. They don’t exclude people for not being born there, or on the basis that
You’re linking to, and confusing, the criteria set for already independent countries for voter eligibility. Whether you doing it knowingly or not doesn’t matter. The two things aren’ the same.
Either you don’t see that because you’re being deliberately disingenuous, or because you just didn’t know.
You are of course entitled to your opinion and your hopes of getting a raise out of those who don’t agree with your point of view by using such language. Most level headed folk will dismiss it as petulant nonsense as I do.
It’s not about getting a raise out of people, I just think when people are punting policies I regard as regressive and damaging to the movement they should expect to be called out for it and be challenged.
The idea that you’re trying to take the moral high ground, or that you are in any way representative of “level headed folk” will be treated with the derision it deserves given your MO.
I would be curious to know what % of English citizens now moved to Scotland and genuinely supportive of Independence, (and there are a fair number of them), but would they feel insulted or take offence at being denied a vote in a Constitutional matter. If they’re anything like me, I’d bet the number would be tiny.
For my part, if I was to emigrate to a foreign country, I certainly would not expect all the entitlements of national citizenship from day one, and even if I somehow was given a vote, I would most likely abstain from voting purely on a point of principle. I would feel like a visitor to their country for a very long time, hoping for acceptance but never being presumptuous about it, and it would take many years of residency and contributions to my new “home” state before I might expect some small degree of entitlement.
I would expect the vast majority of English now living in Scotland wouldn’t be offended in the slightest to be denied a vote on a Scottish Constitutional matter. And of those who did object, I would wager the vast majority would be of Unionist persuasion, and utterly guiltless about interfering with Scottish affairs.
Show me the evidence which supports the suggestion that English immigrants who would be remaining in Scotland after Independence would be offended by being excluded from a Constitutional matter. We are looking to make a problem where none would properly exist.
A period of residency, I would suggest 5 years minimum, seems eminently sensible, and I genuinely would not expect any serious protest or objection. I would also have little regard for any objections which were raised.
I might move to France, qualify for French citizenship, but I’d be withered, old,
grey, and senile before I ever felt I was French and entitled to speak for France. I might contribute to the debate, express an opinion, even perhaps declare an interest, but never expecting any entitlement to vote.
The link I posted last night, of the debate with Margo Macdonald, Teddy Taylor etc…
Hugh MacDiarmid appears, at around the 22 min mark:
Regardless of what one thinks of that viewpoint, it is right there, from the horse’s mouth – no mealy-mouthed PC dancing around the issue. He states plainly what he wants and does it using language which anyone can understand.
The pros and cons of MacDiarmid’s stance are debatable, and that’s the whole point – they have to be discussed, in open format discourse of the sort he was taking part in there. Shutting these voices out from the debate – be it in 1977 or now – is counterproductive. The passions behind such statements don’t just disappear because they’ve been censored.
link to youtube.com
Ian McDiarmid was being utterly honest. A rare thing in politics and life in general these days.
He viewed England and Britain the way the Irish did in the late 19th century. With utter contempt and disdain. Look at England today, is it any better. Look at how they treat us, and we are supposed to play nice!
I want a Republic. I view devolution as a distraction and power retained. Now it is being used to lock Scotland into the UK. On the invented basis that domestic law can hold a devolved nation forever.
If devolution didn’t exist , we would have declared independence in 2015. We won a majority , regardless of the argument it wasn’t about independence.
Sturgeon in Holyrood vetoed the victory. Because she is tied to devolution.
Come on, Ian B @ 9.26. You know full well that Hugh MacDiarmid voted No because of the 1979 franchise: dead men can vote when Britannia waives/pochles the rules 🙂 .
Breeks says:
16 July, 2022 at 9:19 pm
I would be curious to know what % of English citizens now moved to Scotland and genuinely supportive of Independence, (and there are a fair number of them), but would they feel insulted or take offence at being denied a vote in a Constitutional matter. If they’re anything like me, I’d bet the number would be tiny.
So because you wouldn’t feel offended, you reckon they won’t feel offended. That’s called confirmation bias.
For my part, if I was to emigrate to a foreign country, I certainly would not expect all the entitlements of national citizenship from day one, and even if I somehow was given a vote, I would most likely abstain from voting purely on a point of principle. I would feel like a visitor to their country for a very long time, hoping for acceptance but never being presumptuous about it, and it would take many years of residency and contributions to my new “home” state before I might expect some small degree of entitlement.
But that’s just the point, English people living in Scotland – and for that matter Welsh or Northern Irish – are not in a foreign country, they’re in part of the United Kingdom, and have every right to get royally pissed at the notion they’d be disenfranchised in an election on the future of the place they’ve bought a house, paid taxes to the local council, etc. ‘cos “ethnic group, maaaan!”
Much as I can understand where the nativist point of view on this comes from, the problem with it is when you come across those who interpret the land they’re in as part of a different country entirely, and moreover one they belong to.
I would expect the vast majority of English now living in Scotland wouldn’t be offended in the slightest to be denied a vote on a Scottish Constitutional matter. And of those who did object, I would wager the vast majority would be of Unionist persuasion, and utterly guiltless about interfering with Scottish affairs.
Wait, what?
Someone who pays taxes, works to make their locality better, does voluntary work, etc. is told “sorry, but you can’t vote in this ‘cos you’re English, but all those lazy bastards up the scheme who have never done a stroke for anyone or anything in their lives except for themselves will be entitled to vote ‘cos they’re Scottish ‘un that,” … in your world view … is not going to be offended in the slightest by this.
Offended? They’d go ballistic, and rightly so.
Show me the evidence which supports the suggestion that English immigrants who would be remaining in Scotland after Independence would be offended by being excluded from a Constitutional matter. We are looking to make a problem where none would properly exist.
You are proffering a straw man asking for evidence for a question that if asked by any newspaper or government official would spark an outcry – which is why none of them would be dumb enough to do so.
It smacks alarmingly of the stuff the full fat nazi version of the National Front in the 1970s used to come away with demanding all New Commonwealth citizens removed from the electoral register (which ironically would have cost them votes in some places, but that’s another story!)
Show me the evidence which supports the suggestion that English immigrants who would be remaining in Scotland after Independence would be offended by being excluded from a Constitutional matter. We are looking to make a problem where none would properly exist.
How do you know? What evidence would there be other than asking them / polling on the subject, or figuring out how they actually voted after the event? Just because you say you think the numbers wouldn’t be significant, doesn’t make it true.
I know quite a few long term residents who support independence. I doubt many of them would feel good about being denied a vote on the future of the country they call home, where their children live, where they’ve worked and contributed for years, all because a cadre of regressive populists and nativists have let their anti-immigrant sentiment over turn the civic nationalism of the movement.
You personally may not see a problem. Others disagree. The onus is on you and others advocating for change to justify the undoubted harm it will cause. As those who oppose you keep pointing out, your proposed policy is both morally wrong and politically dangerous.
Nobody uses 5 year residence criteria for self determination referendums. Please try to get it through your heads that the qualification periods for gaining citizenship, or for voting when you move to another country as an immigrant ARE NOT THE SAME THING as voting in a self determination referendum. It really isn’t hard to discern why these two things are different, and to discover that virtually all previous examples have used residence criteria, not nativist critera.
For as long as nativists keep up the disinformation and special pleading, I’ll correct it and oppose their deeply unpleasant and politically regressive views.
We are not on the same side.
Today I put the radio on to catch the midday news, then Off The Ball.
I forgot that my watch is set approx 5 mins ‘fast’, so yon comedy show was on. Des Clarke and guests.
This stuff is heavily scripted. ‘Live’ audience there to react but there’s nothing spontaneous about any of it. Ostensibly, it’s a ‘quiz’…
When I switched on the guests were dealing with a topical question, about golf. The female guest (English) said she knew nothing about golf but had heard of the Claret Cup: “But seeing as we’re in Scotland, perhaps we should call it the Tennent’s Superlager can?” Cue laughter. But it sounded half-hearted, a wee bit embarrassed. And no wonder…
This is typical of the shite that is rammed down our necks every day in so many ways, and has been for generations.
Would you let someone come into your home, insult you and your family, make jokes about your country, and then just forget about it all? Would you ever invite them back again?
‘It’s just banter!’
Aye. Right.
We’re dealing with characters (British Establishment) who are still smarting that they’ve lost their Empire. Do they give a solitary fuck about ‘playing fair’ and the ‘ethical standards’ demanded by the ‘international community’?
Gie’s peace, FFS…
🙁
If England was to have an independence referendum, they’d exclude people that wouldn’t be excluded in Scotland.
How?
Foreign citizens don’t get much chance to vote on anything in the land of the
free to do as they’re toldterminally stupid, and most certainly not at state or federal level.Now, Ellis is quite happy for a resident Yank to vote in a referendum in Scotland, if using a Local Govt. franchise.
That same Yank can vote in Scottish Parliament elections, and elections for Senedd Cymru.
But, they cannot vote in UK General Elections, those for the Northern Ireland Assembly, or local elections in England.
The franchise has to change.
It seems to me that including English nationals in a vote for Scottish independence is self-contradictory. Surely self-determination, as the name implies, is to be determined by the Scots? If I lived in England I would not expect to be allowed to vote in constitutional matters that are for the English to decide.
Oh look, another one calling out the Rev’s horrible horribleness to the oppressed …
link to twitter.com
@Saffron Robe (10.22) –
Your point echoes what Breeks said at 9.19.
Why would any of us in Scotland ever assume that we have any say in what happens in Surrey, Liverpool, Devon or any other part of this island?
I’m not ‘better’ than any of the citizens from those places. But I have different priorities, as they do.
Ignoring that basic truth is the kind of dangerous idiocy that allows unaccountable bodies such as the UN, WEF and NATO to make decisions on our behalf with not a shred of ‘democracy’ involved.
If that’s ‘nativist’ then so be it. Guilty as charged.
Ian, Stu Cosgrove is the epitome of the “know your place” mentality and doesn’t need anyone from down south to help him.
Fourteen years later, and he’s still a whiny wee prick about Gretna having the audacity to deny his precious St Johnstone their “rightful elevation” even after their dirty tricks with Alan Main. Aye, it’s “buying your way through the leagues” when it’s your opponents doing it, not when you are. Those village scum should know their place and stick to cricket and Extreme Dry Stone Dyking.
As for Tam Cowan – writes for the Sun and the Daily Record, which have done more for stereotyping Scotland as a land of scheme goblins, tuppenny gangsters, alcoholics, bigots and sheep shaggers than even Edward Pearce at The Guardian managed.
Don’t criticise the English for using the very insulting stereotypes we love to use ourselves because we think it makes us “hard”.
@Mark Boyle (10.40) –
Thanks for sharing.
😉
Ellis talks bollocks, which fails by – simply reading the applicable documents, or a bit of common-sense and a basic level of geopolitical knowledge – then claims he is right because of his “expert status”.
In a way, it is quite good that he is always banging his drum, for it reminds us all – we were shafted on this issue, and it was NOT normal by recognised international standards. Now, if we all stopped talking about it, everyone might think it has been “fixed” – but I don’t see anyone with the power to do so, doing anything about it, at all. I think they are feart, as if they try to touch it, in any way, 1000 “Ellises” will be on them, attacking as a swarm … it will be so bad, you may as well just wear the armband and the trenchcoat and get it over with …
But it’s a fudged issue that does need to be sorted. Because? – “reasons” … very pressing reasons.
I think I saw the phrase “demographic change” mentioned; this is a camouflaged, polite way of saying quite nasty things
… so let’s talk UK census – my 2 “wild guesses”
– ENGLAND IS CONSIDERABLY MORE “MULTICULTURAL” than it was in 2011. “Considerably” means “a fuck of a lot”. And the real numbers will be even worse than the official ones as a lot of people, people you would most like to know about, are not going to put themselves on any register, not even for the stats
– and simultaneously, a certain class of ENGLANDER (WITH MEANS) IS HIGHTAILING IT TO “LILYWHITE SCOTLAND”, (like England 50 years ago); but on the quiet, not telling anyone their real reasons, just “quality of life”, following a “life ambition to make artisanal cheese in Orkney”. Scotland’s middle class is already half anglo, and the nationalism question has within it a covert class war. Check out the Daily Mail, it is almost becoming the “Highland Property Gazette”. Or watch Landward, where native Scots are as rare as our pine marten
The only “BLOOD AND SOIL” problem Scotland has is the “blood and soil Little Englander” who comes up here, and just assumes Scotland = Britain = England, and that Scots are just English with funny accents. He is not a SOFT NO. He probably laments the loss of Matebeleland. Scotland is his escape hatch, the best bits, of course, which he can buy up in bulk for the price of a flat in central London. FPD Savills, Scottish Field, House of Bruar – done.
England is well known to be OVER POPULATED AND UNDER RESOURCED, Scotland the opposite, but we get “one size fits all” policies, being in the UK. There is a claim that analysis of food sales from the markets and shit levels in the sewers, puts England’s real population at > 70M. Now, given south east England is one giant FLOOD PLAIN, and there is a huge need for HOUSING – that is a problem. Some bright young wonk in some ministry is going to have a lightbulb moment, which amounts to – Scotland, being used as the solution to England’s problem. Scotland can become a DUMPING GROUND FOR “EXCESS POPULATION”, though the less good bits (“weaponised migration”!).
Scots, over time, become like “INJUNS ON THE RESERVATION”. Maybe we will get a casino, but not an oil well. You can see it in your mind’s eye – some fast stream twat with his OS maps and a spreadsheet – wealthy middle class engiish will have the Highlands and Edinburgh, the assorted ragbag “excess English” (all kinds) will get the Borders/Galloway, and the natives we will confine to the M8 corridor. Sorted. A bit like the Gaza Strip with a motorway. Now you can have as many indyrefs as you want (under the old rules) with nae danger of YES ever winning.
We should also remember climate change is going to work out well for us – almost no loss of land, and a better, warmer climate, like the south of France in the 1960s by 2100. England will be an archipelago while we can be growing wine grapes. Even Mother Nature is on our side.
When you think of it like this, a 5 year delay from “doing the bleeding obvious” from the FM – makes a lot of sense. Just because you never saw the fiddle does not mean it was clean.
England didn’t allow EU citizens a vote in Brexit. They would have lost! It’s exactly like the RUK migrants in Scotland, but in reverse. Allowing them the vote will likely lose us the referendum.
The EU citizens had a vested interest in staying in the EU. The English for identity reasons have the same in built bias.
The difference is the EU citizens weren’t trying to stop Britain. They just wanted to live and work there. The English in Scotland want the best of both worlds for them. To live in Scotland under English rule! So they can say we are all British. It’s baggage they carry with them wherever they go I am afraid.
Confused. I agree. I once heard a brilliant quote about posh English Liberal Democrats who moved to Scotland: ” They see Scotland as a place to collect butterflies”.
They never live in the industrial parts of Scotland. It’s always a tartan shop in Tobermory, or arts and crafts in Elgin. They don’t contribute to the local economy or wider economy.The culture that once existed in the Highlands is gone. Scotland’s culture is kept alive in Glasgow, Dundee and other working class cities.
Edinburgh was lost decades ago to Anglo Scots and class driven ya yas. Thankfully the majority of Scots live in the central belt. So we might not get a yes in the Highlands, but the big cities will get us over tge line.
I’m not qualified to argue with The Venice Commission which is composed of constitutional experts from around 60 countries, 47 of which are member states of the Council of Europe, and which has made clear its position on the franchise when it comes to referenda;
“a nationality requirement may apply”
“a residence requirement may be imposed”
It should be up to us (Scotland) to decide how we manage these things and I would be happy for us to do so on the basis of the advice given above.
Alf makes the point that we used the register for local elections in 2014 and that’s true but it’s really the only register we have. Maybe it’s about time we developed a register for national elections, like other countries (including the UK); Scotland is after all a nation, even if it isn’t yet a full-fledged nation-state.
The argument, then, isn’t really about the franchise for referendums as such; it’s about the franchise for national elections (as opposed to local). Scotland currently doesn’t have a separate franchise or register for national elections and voting.
Why would Ellis or anyone else want to deprive Scotland of the right to conduct elections normally, as most other countries do, with one register for local elections and another for national elections?
Isn’t that what we are all striving for, to be a normal country?
When you make identity politics your main objective you end up with morons and folk out of their depth. The sense of entitlement coming from this councillor is staggering. It doesn’t look like she is able to back up any of the allegations so I would proceed with legal action as that is the lesson she needs to learn.
Modern day wokes tend to come from privileged back grounds (not all) and they have a massive sense of entitlement. They think only their opinion matters and anyone who disagrees with them needs to be cancelled. This councillor is doing all the modern day woke moves to try and cancel wings. For that reason I think legal action is essential as what the wokes don’t like is getting in trouble legally and financially. They will soon stop the bs when they learn they can’t say stuff with no validation.
It is interesting to note that certain mind readers whose proclamations we are all familiar with demands evidence from anyone who disputes his narratives yet never furnishes the evidence for his own claims, he asserts that the vast majority of people will never accept any change to the franchise for voting on indy , he asserts that voters would be outraged at excluding anyone from voting on indy because it would taint our civic nationalism of which we are so proud and which we are so heavily invested in
He asserts that most countries will refuse to accept a restrictive franchise , he asserts that other countries will refuse to recognise Scotland if we dared to meddle with the franchise because he instinctively knows this despite providing no evidence
I wonder if the native Americans or the first nations of Canada , New Zealand , Australia or anywhere else would be happy to be thought of as
“but all those lazy bastards up the scheme who have never done a stroke for anyone or anything in their lives except for themselves will be entitled to vote ‘cos they’re Scottish ‘un that”
There appears to be some posters who like to refer to their fellow countrymen as schemies or lazy bastards from the scheme which highlights their commitment and belief in the civic nationalism mantra , is this civic nationalism restricted to the middle classes with open contempt acceptable to the undesirables
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house
Mark will you do the same as Andy has openly stated , if the franchise is changed will you ACTIVELY work against independence
Well said confused
Another of the shining lights of the current SNP .
Makes me so glad I resigned when I did , the SNP is no longer about achieving independence.
Simple. Let’s apply a 10 year residency for a referendum. I see nothing unfair in that. If anyone tells me different. Then they they aren’t understanding demographics.
A posh student from England studying at St Andrews. Should not have a vote on my countries future. The country I have been all my life.
The working classes in Glasgow voted for independence. Because they are at the coalface of English rule. They know how bad it is. That’s why they want something better.
The English student at St Andrews gets their degree and buggers off back to London to work in the city. How can anyone think they should get a vote?
@twathater 3.47 am
He asserts that most countries will refuse to accept a restrictive franchise , he asserts that other countries will refuse to recognise Scotland if we dared to meddle with the franchise because he instinctively knows this despite providing no evidence
So why are your assertions any better or more believable than mine then? Are they better evidenced? Do they have back up in the way of polling of the relevant population? Or they just result from feelings you have in your water?
Whatever nativists confidently “assert” (for in the end that’s all it is until the events actually happen) changing the franchise from the pattern accepted carries risks. It’s certainly possible that those risks can be overcome, and that a case can be made to justify changes, particularly if they are proportionate and in line with what has been done elsewhere, or where we can point to a similar precedent.
That’s the issue though isn’t it? You and the the other regressive nativists keep coming up empty on this point. You can’t actually provide any precedents or similar situations. All you have is “Scott” making false comparisons with colonial non-governing territories, and monomaniacs like James Che assuring us we effectively do anything we please because the britnats have broken the Treaties of Union, or the treaties never really existed because 18th century Scots didn’t get to vote on them.
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house
Anyone who thinks independence will somehow solve the problem of unaffordable housing needs to give their head a shake. Being independent may allow us to start addressing such problems, and introduce policies different from those currently in operations, but the scale of the problem isn’t driven solely by non-native Scots. I know plenty of Scots with second homes.
Are you seriously “asserting” (because again, I’d lay money that’s all it is…) that it’s only English people causing the problems? If so, what’s the scale of the problem? How many are we talking about? Do you actually know…? Does anybody? How do you know whether these people are unionists or nationalists, or whether they will vote at all? The answer of course is that you know none of these things.
..will you do the same as Andy has openly stated , if the franchise is changed will you ACTIVELY work against independence
I’ll wager I wouldn’t be the only one. As I’ve said before, it’s all very well to rely on the evidence of 1 poll about how non-native Scots voted in 2014 to say that they “cost” us independence in 2014 by outweighing the native Scots Yes vote, but how can you or anyone else prove what the impact of running the 2014 referendum using a restrictive franchise would have been?
The answer of course is that you and other regressive nativists have no idea. It’s quite possible that even in the even a movement pushing such an idea had managed to win power, advocating such blood and soil ethnic nationalism would have been about as palatable as a rat sandwich, and would have decreased the Yes vote. It is also vanishingly unlikely that a S30 would have been granted for such a franchise.
@Hatuey
“a nationality requirement may apply”
“a residence requirement may be imposed”
Saying something “may” apply – presumably depending on circumstances – is one thing, that thing actually happening is a different matter. As discussed before, a couple of countries have imposed 24 month residence requirements in their self determination referendums, but the vast majority haven’t. Similarly, a few have had minimum vote thresholds (Montenegro for example had a minimum 55% vote hurdle), but I bet most nativists wouldn’t support that concept.
Maybe it’s about time we developed a register for national elections, like other countries (including the UK); Scotland is after all a nation, even if it isn’t yet a full-fledged nation-state.
There’s no reason why not. As you say, other countries do it. The Generalitat does it in Catalonia: they prepared a specific electoral register for their abortive referendum in 2017. They also allowed Catalans abroad to register, although relatively few bothered to do so. If we had a nationalist government or party worth its salt, it’s the kind of state building exercise they should be doing.
Why would Ellis or anyone else want to deprive Scotland of the right to conduct elections normally, as most other countries do, with one register for local elections and another for national elections?
I don’t. I’m the one advocating for Scotland using the same process and precedent as virtually all other cases of self determination, which have overwhelmingly used residence criteria, not ethnic, birth or “assumed nationality” criteria. It really is that simple. Nativists support a deeply regressive, anti-immigrant approach which would make Scotland’s process an outlier. The process they – and presumably you if you support them – of disenfranchising up to 20% of Scots residents to try and secure a different result from 2014 is NOT normal however much blood and soil nationalists try to sell it as such.
twathater says:
17 July, 2022 at 3:47 am
There appears to be some posters who like to refer to their fellow countrymen as schemies or lazy bastards from the scheme which highlights their commitment and belief in the civic nationalism mantra , is this civic nationalism restricted to the middle classes with open contempt acceptable to the undesirables
Unlike some who live in a wee imaginary world every bit as moronic and pathetic as the gender woo woo brigade, I don’t believe in the romanticisation of the condition and the lives of the lower orders of society by middle class wankers in their wee Guardianista fairyland where they perceive the “other half” as “noble savages”.
I’ve even less time for the ludicrous inverse snobbery where “working class” equates with “cool” and “fashionable” as some sort of salve from the hand to mouth existence all too many find themselves in. George Orwell has much to blame, with his “hope lies in the proles” bullshit. Remember they’re the ones who merrily voted in the Labour troughers, “like ma faither un his faither afore him, ‘un that.”
But it’s also part and parcel of the “know your place” culture which has been the bane of the Celtic parts of these islands for a millenia, the absurd and downright insulting notion that there’s something “honourable” and “character building” in a life of perpetual want and struggle at the bottom of the heap – the crap of Catherine Cookson potboilers voyeured over by people that have never missed a meal in their lives.
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house
You’d shit your pants at the thought of going anywhere near Easterhouse or Castlemilk, champ. Unlike you, I’ve actually worked in some of these places and so am not full of the romantic bullshit too many Scots wanting to appear broadminded have towards how low human beings can go of their own volition.
Mark will you do the same as Andy has openly stated , if the franchise is changed will you ACTIVELY work against independence
Don’t talk bollocks all your life, even if it is behind an alias.
O/T
I know this has been raised before but why are food waste from Supermarkets not used to help with the cost of living crisis?
I know it isn’t going to solve the problem but it is going to solve an immediate stop-gap with sections of society who are facing the dilemma of choosing between heating and eating now and in the near future:
link to thegrocer.co.uk
Lots of discussion around how to try and circumvent any non born Scots having a vote in any future Independence referendum. Is this really an underhand way of trying to rig the vote to suit?
I was unable to vote in 2014 as I was working out with Scotland. What are the thoughts on excluding people in similar circumstances in the next one?
The majority of Scots currently do not want Independence, despite what the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade on here think. I am certain that a lot of people falling in to this category could be persuaded to change their views but nobody seems willing to even try. Certainly not the SNP who are very comfortable with life exactly how it is.
Change can take place very quickly in Politics and people, especially Political Parties, have to be ready to make the most of opportunities as they present themselves. Can anybody realistically see Nicola and her acolytes having ANY plans prepared to do just that?
Independence is a long way off, which is maybe a blessing in disguise, as I want the SNP no where near it.
twathater says:
17 July, 2022 at 3:47 am
I think Mark and Andy should venture in to Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel and ask the schemies what is their opinion of well off southerners moving to Scotland after selling their expensive houses and buying houses here which pushes up the price and stops their children from affording a house…
I think it’s more profound even than that. The whole concept of home ownership has been distorted in the UK into a grotesque Ponzi scheme, where demand for home ownership is driven to extremes because frantic demand is what pushes prices to farcical levels. That demand has been engineered to be there.
The whole UK property industry is a scam; spectacular profits for contractors, agents, Government and money lenders, but all for the barest minimum substance put into the actual property. Maximum out for minimum in. It’s the Tory way. Take from the poor and give it to me.
People are indoctrinated to see home ownership as status, and that not owning your home is a stigma. But while it can be a mark of status, the principles have mutated in the UK, seriously damaging the health and fabric of UK society.
You do not need to own a property to enjoy living there, raising your family there, and having a realistic likelihood that if your kids want to keep living there after you’re gone then they can.
But that use of property as a basic domicile shelter which everybody has a right to, comes under extraordinary pressure the moment low grade social housing becomes seen as a golden ticket to instant wealth. It’s a magic property ladder for those with a stake in it, (you must keep the repayments or else), but it’s deprivation and misery for those who don’t.
The irony is, that broadly speaking, with or without the UK’s Ponzi scheme for housing, the same people would broadly speaking still be living in the same “level” of property they currently do. All the Ponzi scheme does is see them handing over vast sums of their hard earned wages to live there.
The only way out of this vicious cycle is to start building more homes so slake demand for accommodation, drive down demand, but for goodness sake build those properties for traditional longevity so that you’re not demolishing them 50 years later.
The UK population is seen as a flock of sheep ripe to be fleeced by the UK property market. It’s a racket. An Independent Scotland could and should develop a much more robust and healthy arrangement between its people and having a place to stay and enjoy stress free as your home. NOBODY should be sleeping in the rain because they’ve nothing in their pockets.
Who profits from your mortgage? Ha ha! You think it’s you. “It’s an investment!” Oh, so you’ll eventually get back what you paid? Err… Oh, it’s an investment where you lose two thirds of the money you paid in, and own a depreciated “asset”, and if that’s a timber framed asset, I really wouldn’t be too optimistic about a resale value.
Housing is a social issue. Please Scotland, I beg you. Do not strive to make the UK’s Ponzi scheme the way the property market works in Scotland. Do not make our nation a paradise for monied parasites like Banks, “Developers” and Estate Agents all lining up for their cut. That money currently being siphoned out of our society like there’s no tomorrow should be circulating in our society, keeping our shops open, our small businesses buoyant, and our local crafts commercially viable.
There’s nothing wrong with owning property, but it badly needs defused as a get rich quick scheme.
Independence is Scotland’s big chance to reset the dials. For all our sakes, reset this one Scotland. There are better ways for people to live.
“I would be curious to know what % of English citizens now moved to Scotland and genuinely supportive of Independence, (and there are a fair number of them), but would they feel insulted or take offence at being denied a vote in a Constitutional matter”
Breeks @9.19pm.
If we use the 2014 indyref as some sort of yard stick of which 72% of folk from the rest of the UK voted no, and add in the factors that the number of folk from the rest of the UK living in Scotland appears to have increased since then, and combine that with the Westminster government rerunning project fear, which is a nail on, in my opinion I don’t see that 2014 number of 72% fluctuating all that much if another indyref materialises, and if we enfranchise those with a less than ten years active residency in Scotland, we’d be setting ourselves up to lose the next indyref.
I certainly don’t want an indyref under Sturgeon’s tenure as FM, it would be ill thought out and ill prepared, and Sturgeon will enfranchise everyone who has set foot in Scotland, her aim to be lauded as a progressive FM of a progressive nation, to her I think the result wouldn’t matter, what matters to her is how the world sees her. Sturgeon has a massive ego and craves positive attention, that’s why I think the process would be far more important to her than the result.
Meanwhile…
Wishart says the SNP MPs will never pull out of Westminster because they want to represent their voters or something. Tell me, how many laws have the SNP managed to get passed during their time in Westminster? Answers on the back of a – very small – fag packet.
link to thenational.scot
“Lots of discussion around how to try and circumvent any non born Scots having a vote in any future Independence referendum. Is this really an underhand way of trying to rig the vote to suit?”
Circumvent, underhand, rig the vote, interesting wording there, words that the no camp and project fear used along with the Britnat media to great effect in 2014. We know where you stand that’s for sure.
To other reading.
We had in 2014 from project fear, you won’t get the BBC if Scotland becomes independent, Scottish independence will lead to the Balkanisation of Western Europe, we might need to bomb Scottish runways on independence, Scotland would not be protected from attacks from outer space if it becomes independent. You can’t use the pound, after no won Alistair Campbell said of course Scotland could’ve used the pound.
You won’t get your pension if you leave the union, just a few of the “Underhand” tactics of the Westminster government in 2014. Yet if we Scots try to discuss how to set a level playing field against such a powerful media machine, a flux of incomers and a English government hostile to Scottish independence, we are somehow rigging the vote.
PacMan says:
17 July, 2022 at 9:49 am
O/T
I know this has been raised before but why are food waste from Supermarkets not used to help with the cost of living crisis?
I know it isn’t going to solve the problem but it is going to solve an immediate stop-gap with sections of society who are facing the dilemma of choosing between heating and eating now and in the near future:
It’s the joys of unfettered capitalism in action.
If all the food about to hit its sell by date was automatically given to food banks in return for some form of compensation from the government, they’d be near to bursting point in a day. This would be a good thing – for a short while.
Manufacturers however would automatically start putting up their food prices, knowing full well the supermarkets would pay it, knowing full well in turn the government would pay for the excess to be given away for free.
The foodbanks meanwhile, with more than they can cope with, would have to take on more volunteers in a hurry and not have time to do any vetting. The result is they would have people looking to steal some of that excess food (especially the long life stuff like dried pastas and tinned food) to sell on themselves on the side. Eventually those people wouldn’t be individuals spiving, but organised gangs.
The trouble with any sort of Speenhamland type of system, wherever they’re implemented, is there’s always too many greedy bastards who will seek to exploit it to line their own pockets. And as ever, it is always the poor who will pay the price.
I’m not sure Easterhouse , Castlemilk , Hilltown , or Drumchapel are the target areas of english home movers.
It’s about amenities, no public schools for theodore and poppy,no GP for mummy and daddy, for instance.
If we are independent we could apply an additional tax on foreigners, like the English buying homes here due to the housing shortages.
Like Netherlands we could also stop foreigners from buying properties with a view to renting them out.
Last Labour controlled Scottish Government built 6 homes for rent over 5 years.
At least SNP have produced 10’s thousands.
There is a wise investment in housing if ran correctly.
That is financially, mentally for the tenants and for society in general.
I have had dealings in new build social housing in the Glasgow Council schemes.
The developer get land for themselves to build and sell while building new stock for the housing associations.
I visited some of the tenants in the old homes that are to be replaced.
Some where totally wrecked.
Fits and feet through doors decades of dirt and squalor and the tenant demanding extras of the new build home or they don’t move out to facilitate the demolition of the block.
There has to be more powers for the factors to ensure the area isn’t turned into slums and
Supported basic accommodation for those who expect to have a wreck and replace mentality.
Underground source heating is a must and thermal imaging tests made before handover.
Joiners cutting each other’s throats for work take any shortcut they can so sheeting walls without putting the insulation in is more common that you think.
How could any pensioner or disabled person pay for heating bills expected to be £3,500 in January next year.
The Tories are furtively working to wipe out as many of these people as they can.
No heat, not enough food, not enough GPs or hospital appointments
Briefly their complaints will justify privatising the NHS with Tory Supporters and US corporation money to make it function better before the costs go up and up and up
until those not working like slaves can’t afford it.
A few charity hospitals will help mask the situation but for most it’s the beginning of the end for other with acute illness.
Fabulous wealth to be made for those investing and a massive reduction in welfare payments and pensions. Adolf would be so pleased to see his plans still thriving today.
“Simple. Let’s apply a 10 year residency for a referendum.”
Big Jock.
Yes I’d say that’s fair, I’d add to that it has to be an active residency, no vote for absentee landlords or second home owners who visit Scotland sporadically, no vote for students from foreign countries (including the rest of the UK) who are in Scotland to just to gain a degree. Yes a ten years residency across the board shows at least some semblance of commitment to Scotland’s future as a whole.
@Mark Boyle (9.46) –
George Orwell is ‘to blame’ for having a fictional character state that ‘hope lies in the proles’? Really? Because no one prior to Orwell had ever formulated such a thought?
Your angry comment manages to condense a heap of stereotypes that are all rooted in poverty. That some ‘poor people’ are to blame for their predicament is as obvious as it is perennial. But the majority do their best and look after one another. What is wrong with saying that ‘hope’ lies with them? What is the alternative? That we all give up?
Ian,
looking at the english conservative party slate, hope lies with the privileged.
Their hopes are not of the lumpen.
Big Jock @12.44am.
Yes good points Jock, it was also interesting to note on the Brexit vote that emigrants from the UK who went abroad could vote and it appears that, the majority of that group hung themselves up with their own petards by voting to leave.
Along with citizens from most European countries Scottish sixteen-and-seventeen years old did not get the vote either as they do in Holyrood elections, also Members of the House of Lords could vote in the EU referendum even though they are not allowed to vote in general elections.
Westminster with Brexit in mind, picked which groups of people it wanted to enfranchise and which it did not.
If its good enough for Westminster then it good enough for Holyrood to pick which groups of people it wants to enfranchise and which groups it does not want to.
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 10:39 am
@Mark Boyle (9.46) –
George Orwell is ‘to blame’ for having a fictional character state that ‘hope lies in the proles’? Really? Because no one prior to Orwell had ever formulated such a thought?
What I said was “George Orwell has much to blame”. Don’t twist my words because I’m stepping on your fetish.
Your angry comment manages to condense a heap of stereotypes that are all rooted in poverty. That some ‘poor people’ are to blame for their predicament is as obvious as it is perennial.
There’s nothing more lazy and Guardianista than to dismiss inconvenient facts as “stereotypes” – much the same crap that the genderwoowoo brigade indulges in where anyone stating scientific facts is a TERF.
But the majority do their best and look after one another.
RATFLMAO – no they damn well don’t. They rob each other blind every chance they get, lie as naturally as breathing, and see any form of “niceness” as weakness to be as ruthlessly exploited as a predator towards wounded prey. “Working class solidarity” exists only so far as “what’s in it for me”. Most people barely even know their neighbours now.
Too many of the lalaland classes still see the lower stratas of society in terms of reference that died back in the days of “Boys From The Black Stuff”. Thatcher and Blair’s mighty work has long been complete, we no longer have societies but human jungles where civilisation will only last as long as the plebes have their drugs, soaps, sports and celeb trivia to keep them distracted and factionalised.
It’s something Sturgeon long ago sussed with her targetting of all the little snowflake groups – keep ’em divided, keep ’em conquered while paradoxically promising to liberate them …
and who gets to count the votes these days?
IDOX, founded by the man with a fondness for little lists, Lilley.
I have a favour to ask of our English supporters of Yes, or indeed our Scottish supporters of Yes who have English accents…
Would you start to speak to the English newby’s come fresh to Scotland to ‘gather butterflies’ (I really like that expression), and find out,
Will they vote for Scottish Indy – Yes or No (let’s not water down the question of will they ‘support’… that leaves it wide open to changing their mind at the last minute, if its not exactly to their liking.
What was their primary motive for moving to Scotland?
House prices
Rural view – get away from Covid
Keep Scotland ‘British/English’
A desire to live in an area not so ethnically diverse
Empathy for the Scottish Constitution and a desire to promote same
What is the depth of their knowledge re Scotland’s real wealth and England’s reliance on same.
When did they move here.
If I attempt to get this info, it will be called anti-English. If an English person does it, its called a conversation.
If the results resemble something akin to Lindsay Hoyle and the English MP’s behaviour in Westminster the other day, if I disclose that result, I’ll be called anti-English, if English supporters of Yes do so, it will have real validity.
And lastly, for all villagers, can you get a rough idea of how many English economic migrants/ex pats have moved into your area since 2014. The most recent Census did not tackle this question in any real way and will not provide us with answers.
If the data shows us that for every 1 English supporter willing to vote Yes, we get 2 who will vote No – I’m calling that out as the worst Buy One Get One Free deal ever, and then I’m going to ask our English for Yes Voters to lead the way in campaigning to Not be Allowed to vote in Scotland’s Constitutional issue for Independence.
The word British is used time and time again to hide England’s duplicity… but it is not the Welsh who asset strip my country, nor the people of Northern Ireland. The word ‘British’ gets used like a threadbare union jack coloured fig leaf.
One country, and it’s people, profiteer, over and over and over again from the rape of my country, and for over 300 years we have been arguing the case, over and over again, regarding the injustice of this, in Westminster, in the House of Lords, in workplaces and pubs the length and breadth. It made not one whit of difference. Most Englanders didn’t care and still don’t.
To be told now, when Scotland is at its most vulnerable, due to that country and its voters actions!!! That I just need to work harder to persuade them of the value of Indy, that a magical move from England to Scotland for a house twice the size and half the price will have somehow opened their minds and made them far more amenable to the arguments, is the biggest load of BOLLOCKS.
After 3 terms of Maggie, Boris and Brexit… I’m calling it out… it is not a bug, it is a feature.
And one more thing, England is on the edge of becoming a Facsist state – Heseltine, Chris Patton, and others have warned of this…
With the damage they have done to the economy, and their absolute need for Scotland’s energy… it will not be Puttin rolling up at the border with tanks… it will be the ‘British’ Army.
The reason why votes on Constitutional issues are different from other normal elections, is because, if the worst comes to the worst, it really can come down to the question of ‘would you staff the barricades’.
But I’ll leave you with this, given that this is such a serious issue, the elephant in the room if you like, how dare anyone suggest that we should not have an open and frank, respectful debate about it, just in case it offends. That is just as manipulative and loaded an argument to stifle discussion on this as it is within the GRA/Self ID brigade. An extension of the ‘shut up and be kind’ tactics.
@Mark Boyle (11.12) –
More anger and insults and doom-laden ranting.
Fair enough Mark. Your contempt for ‘ordinary’ folk is noted. But don’t assume we all share your fear and weakness. There’s always ‘hope’, even if there are always naysayers like you around.
Mark,
are youe brains behind priti patel?
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 11:18 am
@Mark Boyle (11.12) –
More anger and insults and doom-laden ranting.
Fair enough Mark. Your contempt for ‘ordinary’ folk is noted. But don’t assume we all share your fear and weakness. There’s always ‘hope’, even if there are always naysayers like you around.
Yeah, until the next election comes around, and those “salt of the earth” ‘ordinary folk’ you so fetish vote right back in all those you hate yet again, and you’ll be on here as ever screaming the walls down at those “thick fkers!” 😀
Paul@11.15am.
Indeed Idox is not to be trusted especially in the PVMS which is open to abuse, an example.
“On 11 December 2019, the BBC’s Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg appeared to have broken Electoral Law by revealing on the BBC’s Politics Live programme confidential information about how Postal Voters had cast their vote prior to 10pm on polling day in the UK/2019 General Election”
As for Tory Peter Lilley he was used by MI5 and MI6 via the DTI in investigations of Gerald James and his “Arms to Iraq” revelations.
This is what the Scottish government thinks of Idox being involved in Scottish elections.
“The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process.”
@Mark Boyle –
It’s one thing to be cynical and fed-up. That’s understandable and natural.
But you take it too far with the anger and insults. You’re not doing yourself any favours by projecting your frustration on others and certainly not advancing any ‘debate’.
“The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process
Who chooses the counting officers?
@ paul
Those vote counters are machines now thanks to E Counting…
link to archive.ph
“4. Specific rules applicable to referendums held at the request of a section of the electorate and to popular initiatives (where they are provided for in the Constitution)
a. Everyone enjoying political rights is entitled to sign a popular initiative or request for a referendum.
b. The time-limit for collecting signatures (particularly the day on which the time-limit starts to run and the last day of the time-limit) must be clearly specified, as well as the number of signatures to be collected.
c. Everyone (regardless of whether he or she enjoys political rights) must be entitled to collect signatures.
d. If authorisation is required in order to gather signatures for popular initiatives or requests for a referendum on public thoroughfares, such authorisation may be refused only in specific cases provided for by law, on the basis of overriding public interest and in accordance with the principle of equality.
e. Payment from private sources for the collection of signatures for popular initiatives and requests for referendums should, as a rule, be prohibited. If permitted, it must be regulated, with regard to both the total amount allocated and the amount paid to each person.
f. All signatures must be checked. In order to facilitate checking, lists of signatures should preferably contain the names of electors registered in the same municipality.
g. In order to avoid having to declare a vote totally invalid, an authority must have the power, prior to the vote, to correct faulty drafting, for example:
i. when the question is obscure, misleading or suggestive;
ii. when rules on procedural or substantive validity have been violated; in this event, partial invalidity may be declared if the remaining text is coherent; sub-division may be envisaged to correct a lack of substantive unity.
” – Code of Good Practice on Referendums
link to venice.coe.int
I nominate Andy Ellis as Signature-Gatherer General.
Ian Brotherhood says:
17 July, 2022 at 11:34 am
@Mark Boyle –
It’s one thing to be cynical and fed-up. That’s understandable and natural.
But you take it too far with the anger and insults. You’re not doing yourself any favours by projecting your frustration on others and certainly not advancing any ‘debate’.
I don’t take it too far – I take you out of your comfort zone. There’s a difference.
Scots being taken out of their comfort zone – cultural, economic, politicial, social – is something long overdue if anything is to be achieved within it. The only ones who balk at the idea are those who like things as they are, thank you very much, or who simply want to replace them and enjoy the said trappings of the status quo for themselves by and large.
Ain’t it ironic that here we all are, on a thread about people calling Rev.Stu all sorts of nasty names for telling them things they don’t want to hear, giving him our solidarity … only to find others doing exactly the same things towards others saying things they don’t want to hear!
Aye, wha’s lik’ us indeed! 😀