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Wings Over Scotland


The secret Society

Posted on August 05, 2014 by

We encourage readers to keep an eye out for the soon-to-be-released work of the Scottish Research Society. You won’t have heard of them before – they’re only three months old, with just 48 “likes” on Facebook – but they’ve already amassed some serious funds and have registered as campaigners for No in the referendum debate.

sresearch

The society’s website notes that it “was formed on May 6th, under the Act of 1854, permitting Scientific and Literary Societies to be set up to inform and educate the public on social, economic and scientific matters.”

It goes on to add that “the material contained in the Society’s works, is used to provide accurate and informed commentary on aspects of the issues relevant to the question of Scottish independence. The Society is not a campaign group, but an organisation seeking to inform and provide balance.”

So that’s an interesting start.

The site never quite manages to get round to explaining how it can square not being a campaign group with simultaneously noting that “the Society is registered with the Electoral Commission in Scotland, as a pro Unionist group” and publishing articles with such academically-rigorous and balanced titles as:

“When did being a proud Scot and a unionist become a dirty combination?

“Would you gamble with one million jobs?”

“Economic plans – What economic plans?”

“All Scots will Pay for Salmond Airport bribe”

“Salmond wants to have his (pound) cake and eat it too”

and the cheerfully optimistic “Scotland, a sitting duck for terrorists”.

It’s run by marketing directors Hamish Cameron Alldridge and Elaine MacKenzie Grossart (who are also partners in Namaste Partnership Ltd – a business and events promotion company where interestingly Hamish has his directorship registered in the name of Hamish Cameron rather than Alldridge).

The group (which isn’t a group) was able to raise £74,747 in donations in the last few weeks, via a one-off donation by Staffodshire based JCB digger tycoon and Tory donor Mark Bamford, who has given over £2m to the party and coincidentally happens to be a board member of the Conservative Foundation set up by Margaret Thatcher and John Major to “strengthen the financial future of the Conservative Party”.

Unlock Democracy notes that:

“Despite having donated over £2million to the Conservative Party, JCB Research, a private company within JCB, which has never formally filed accounts, is reportedly worth only £27,000.”

We look forward to seeing the results of Mr Bamford’s largesse.

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  1. Devorgilla says:

    Can we please end this groat crap? We used £Scots.

  2. Grouse Beater says:

    JLT AS missed an opportunity here.

    Are you taking the next debate?

    Salmond did what we expected of him.

    Darling held tight to the massively contradictory position Scotland can be successful but he’d rather it remained subservient to Westminster.

  3. FlimFlamMan says:

    @ tinyzeitgeist

    The no proponents are never seriously approached to explain why Westminster would by this action remove 10% of rUK’s GDP, affect the already teetering balance of payments…

    It makes no difference what currency is used, that GDP will be lost to rUK. In the event of independence Scottish GDP will be Scottish. Using the same currency wouldn’t cause that trade to belong to rUK.

    Same with BOP; the trade will be Scottish, so whose balance of payments will it appear on? Currency used makes no difference.

    …and have significant consequences for rUK’s borrowing costs.

    rUK borrowing costs, like UK borrowing costs now, will be whtever the government allows them to be, provided, like now, the rUK is sovereign in its own currency. A CU would end that sovereignty, and that’s what would put gov borrowing cost beyond the control of the government.

  4. Paula Rose says:

    For those of you who don’t know – Haggis Hunter has a very big machine 😉

  5. Famous15 says:

    Will Ireland and Iceland call in the Brittish ambassadors in their countries and ask why Darling said they were bust when their recovery is better than the UK.

    British Foreign policy is an embarrassment.Darling will never make a diplomat!

  6. Grouse Beater says:

    As ever the No campaign is forced to rubbish every country outside Britain in an effort to make us feel too small to think for ourselves.

  7. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I saw little or no evidence of a biased broadcaster and the round up on both ITV and BBC was notable by the balance.

    I think open goals were missed on the deficit and the oil but to be true there was very little opportunity to expand statements on them.
    As I say this form of debate isn’t actually good for debate

  8. Jim says:

    Jim Murphy is holding street meetings as part of his 100 streets tour tomorrow 4 August 11.30am in Thurso Caithness in the precinct and in Wick Caithness at 2.00pm on the high street.

  9. heedtracker says:

    TD says:
    5 August, 2014 at 11:09 pm
    I hate to say it, but I think this was a points win for Darling. Alex has been badly advised

    It was a debate about the future of Scotland. If you want to see Flipper filleted go and visit a food bank and a UKOK tax haven. Youre taking the piss old chap but have your fun.

  10. Thepnr says:

    All of you watching the reruns of Darling and still thought he won are deluded. Just my opinion ya dafties lol.

  11. TD says:

    Mary Bruce
    You may be bored by discussion of currency and the EU and I agree that these issues have been dealt with, but the currency in particular does worry people. Some people are only going to start getting engaged in this debate now, so we all need to be prepared to discuss these issues. Just because you and I know that the points were answered months ago does not mean that all undecided voters know about the answer.

  12. heedtracker says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    5 August, 2014 at 11:15 pm
    I saw little or no evidence of a biased broadcaster and the round up on both ITV and BBC was notable by the balance.

    ITV news had 5 undecideds all flipped to no. Once again, you’re taking the piss too but have at it.

  13. Grouse Beater says:

    It was a debate about the future of Scotland.

    Which is what Salmond discussed as best as he could find the opportunity.

    To me Darling’s entire demeanour is to talk incessantly about running scared.

  14. TD says:

    Heedtracker

    Don’t know what you are talking about.

  15. Grouse Beater says:

    Hill I saw little or no evidence of a biased broadcaster and the round up on both ITV and BBC was notable by the balance.

    Which soap were you watching?

    The debate was on STV.

  16. Mealer says:

    I think the debate was ok.Salmond painted a positive and ambitious picture for an independent Scotland.Darling said it was all to scarey.Not a game changer,but it never was going to be.
    If we’re going to win this campaign it will be down to thousands of us having conversations and persuading folk to have faith in their country.

  17. Lesley-Anne says:

    If anyone says that we can’t have a cu then I just tell them fine we’ll use the pound anyway without a cu. Oh and by the way we’ll be REMOVING the £4 BILLION currently held by the Bank of England as security against Scottish currency. I wonder how the Chairman of the Bank of England will feel about losing over £4 Billion. I’m guessing he will not be too chuffed about it!

    As at 28 February 2014, the three authorised banks in Scotland had a total of around £4,106 million of NIC and the four authorised banks in Northern Ireland had around £2,181 million of NIC.

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/s_ni_roleofbackingassets.aspx

  18. David Smith says:

    Look, if the difference in applause between the two protagonists was anything to go by, that was a 70% Yes by my reckoning. It’s gone way beyond the personalities of two men now. I don’t think the Brit media has grasped that still.
    As far as I’m concerned the only question of ANY importance in this is; “Do you trust your own people to govern you or a clique of warmongers, thieves and sex offenders?”

  19. handclapping says:

    Surprised that no one has pointed out how different this Westminster type debate aka shouting match is from the debates in Holyrood. When you add Murray’s point about Westminster is the current source of overall government. Apart from financial crises, massive expense fraud, outstanding investigations into sex scandals, inability to reform, cash for questions, cronies in the House of Lords, illegal wars, national debt, … what else do they have to do to lose people’s trust? you have a very powerful argument that Holyrood can do a better job of governing us.

    PS anyone who spends 2 hours listening to a televised debate between politicans deserves to have their life shortened by 2 hours

  20. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    Currency is simply not the highest priority issue for scots.

    I can understand a bit of navel gazing since Ponsonby allowed it to dominate the debate but it’s salience is vastly overstated simply because the No campaign have nothing better to go on and the No friendly press and tory funded better together want it to dominate.

    Of far more importance are the simple questions of who the scottish public trusts the most to best look after scotland’s interests and future. Westminster or scotland?

    Just keep hammering home that point as well as the appalling likelyhood of yet another tory government in 2015 and that will more than nullify the currency issue.

    Afer all, why on earth should Yes let the No campaign set the terms of the debate? I won’t be letting them and nor should anyone else campaigning hard in these crucial final weeks.

    Darling also utterly blew it on more powers and was rightly laughed at by the audience. Something else that will be far more decisive than currency for undecideds.

    By all means be critical where it is merited but if this relentless reheated negativity is the best No has to offer then I for one am satisfied with tonight even though there are places where the message could be improved and will be improved.

  21. Thepnr says:

    @TD

    You may be bored by discussion of currency and the EU and I agree that these issues have been dealt with, but the currency in particular does worry people.

    Please enlighten me as to the answers you would supply to the public?

  22. geeo says:

    @gerry parker.

    Hope you do not mind me asking, but how long have you been married ?

    I ask because, if it is under 3 years, fair enough mate.

    3-5..a simple lapse in the moment.

    5-10….No excuses, basic error and you will be lucky to see any of that, but will be reminded every time you see her in her new top you “bought” her.

    10 plus…..Where the heck did you get 20 quid without her knowing BEFORE you whipped it out. (steady now)?

    I have 25 years married in less than a week (11th i think…HOPE!), and am voting yes, my wife might be a No voter as she said tonight, you can vote Yes, but there is NO CHANCE of a currency union !!!

    My advice to my single friends is to buy a woman you hate, a house.
    Saves lots of time…lol

  23. Balaaargh says:

    Eck was average, those jokey first few questions should have been rolled up and then finished off with “so why did you call yourselves Project Fear?” as a finisher.

    Flipper was poor. He wasted so much time on a currency union he had nothing else to ask.

    I’m still amazed at the businessman who only turned up so AS could promise tax cuts for his business and the woman who is “still waiting for an answer from Alex Salmond about Plan B!” Does she pelt his house with eggs in the middle of the night shouting that? Or chase him down the street with a banner, “Answer me, Alex! Answer me!” like some fixated stalker?

  24. heedtracker says:

    TD says:
    5 August, 2014 at 11:20 pm
    Heedtracker

    Don’t know what you are talking about.

    You do but good luck with your whinge.

  25. Grouse Beater says:

    What was confirmed tonight by Darling was plain: The UK Government, in his opinion, will ignore the sovereignty of the people of Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.

    That’s the parliament Darling wishes Scotland to stay loyal to. That’s the one we are asked to respect.

  26. P.R.D. says:

    STV indy debate a total flop, who had the stupid idea of sparring what are two essentially progressive politicians in the expectation of advancing the indy debate.

    This was just terribly produced TV with two progressive politicians that did not appear convinced of their own politics.

  27. msean says:

    I’m still voting yes,I have never voted Tory but keep getting them,some seem ok with that,but I’m not.

  28. Clootie says:

    Liquid Lenny says:
    5 August, 2014 at 9:56 pm
    muttley79

    The whole point of mentioning those questions such as driving on the other side of the road and Space monsters was to highlight the utterings of Project Fear and make a connection with the currency issue.

    I think it worked.

    I agree. The structure was to show that no clear line exists between false claims and distortion. They dismiss claims as jokes , fun etc but where is the line – they leave knowingly false statements from Junker on their site – was that a joke?

  29. Haggis Hunter says:

    The currency is a UK government manipulator, we all know that we will still have our £ but i think people who are not political geeks like us will be lead by the BBC Better Together.

  30. Marcia says:

    I didn’t see the debate and I understand there are to be more debates to come. What we need is away from these awful TV formats and debate formats like the NATO debate a couple of years ago.

  31. Grouse Beater says:

    Clootie: I think it worked.

    There’s been so much garbage thrown at Scotland you forget the specifics. Those alarms are fairly recent meant to be serious.

    Darling’s mock reply there were a joke is insulting to us.

    Why do people not see they’re being thoroughly patronised?

  32. westie7 says:

    Its a good job the day got off to a good start with the bairn getting great higher results cos it ended crap.
    AS new what he’d be up against from the start, he should have done better and given the enemy no place to go. He should he wiped the floor with Darling and there is now an awkward admission from every yes I’ve spoken to on my various social sites that he missed an open goal.
    I’ve about a dozen or so sway-ables on my FB who have just been lost by the bluster, silly references tonight and lack of discussion around the meaningful issues
    It doesn’t matter to these folk that it was an Ipsos setup.
    Tonight just set us back God knows how long

  33. heedtracker says:

    I think it was a lot better than the usual BBC etc shills are pushing it.

    If you think that UK gov will allow catastrophic damage to their own industrial base with NO currency union, vote no and shut up.

    How many English have very high paid jobs in Scotland for starters.

    The whole of the EU is a currency union and its working fine and finally, everyone else knows its a Flipper class bluff and he’s a catastrophic failure that nearly destroyed the whole economy and showed Scotland that Labour is merely the Tory party in red.

    Vote YES and good night from a roasting hot Aberdeen!

  34. Thepnr says:

    At the end of the day, my own view is that Alex Salmond aimed his opening statement at the wavering Labour supporter.

    He talked of foodbanks and welfare, a fairer society and he meant it. This will be enough for a win for him in their eyes. Who cares what the chattering classes think.

  35. Calgacus says:

    Aye blood and soil was a joke too flipper but guess what YOU are the joke.

  36. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Too many people are getting their undergarments in a twist over this ‘debate’.

    AS and AD are not compatible – one is the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland, the other is a failed CoE and New Labour clone who just happens to be a proven liar and expenses fiddler.

    It was never going to be a ‘contest’, so there can be no ‘winner’ – imagine Nadal, Murray or Djokovic playing an expert ‘moonballer’, or watch this rather sad footage of Muhammad Ali versus Antonio Inoki in 1976:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nVl2LPFmjg

  37. Grouse Beater says:

    Westie: Tonight just set us back God knows how long

    So you’re still voting No?

    Debates with audience intervention, hissing and booing, never allows for ‘game changer’ statements – that stupid phrase. Good points are lost in the noise of people expressing dislike of the candidate.

  38. Cindie says:

    Scottish Sun asking who won the debate in a poll here: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/scottishpolitics/referendum2014/5806200/Who-won-the-live-TV-debate-Darling-or-Salmond.html

    Personally I thought it was Alex, but only just. I agree with Stu in that I think the options for currency should be explained. Plus the ‘joke’ about the pandas, we’ve all heard it by now. Meanwhile Wee Ginger Dug, has a great article as usual over on his blog

  39. Defo says:

    On the CU, cut Eck some slack here too.
    If the € hadn’t had such a wobbly after 2008, we wouldn’t be having this arguement at all.
    Eck was forced to go with the £. We know that, and so do the Mongers of Fear.
    He can’t admit it though. Not now, maybe back in 2011.
    Now would just make him look indecisive and weak.
    We however, can explain this pragmatic position to those we meet. I doubt admitting that would turn many people off.
    Now the storm has passed, I for one would rather go with the €. It works well for countries with a large export market. Time for that later, as with many things 🙂

  40. TD says:

    Thepnr

    I would say that we will use the pound sterling and that we will seek to negotiate a currency union. But I recognise that to do a deal on this will require agreement from both sides. So it is possible that the other side will not agree and to that extent there is uncertainty. But if they refuse to enter into a currency union, we will exact a price – e.g. not take on a share of their debt. We cannot say for sure how these negotiations will work out, but we will be in control of our side and we know that they do not want to shoot themselves in the foot by refusing a currency union. We cannot guarantee success, but we think it likely.

    I would also make the point that there is much uncertainty if we are foolish enough to vote No. We cannot be certain that we will stay in the EU. We cannot be certain that the “additional powers” will be delivered. We cannot even be certain that our current devolved powers will be retained.

    We can be certain of some things if we vote No. We can be certain that Trident will remain on the Clyde. We can be certain that austerity will really get going (unlike what has happened so far). We can be certain that the Westiminster government will continue to take our money.

    Oh – and we can be certain that there will be a big uplift in estimates of oil revenues after the referendum.

    How did I do?

  41. Calgacus says:

    I agree with Thepnr, this was aimed at Labour supporters and I believe it found it’s mark

  42. Haggis Hunter says:

    We were being patronised and Darling had 95% of the cringe, like us using the ruppee etc., I just hope intelligence of the voter will win thru, I was shocked at how the BBC news presented this. Salmond should have ripped Darling a new erse hole, and presented what Scotland has and the sh!te we have to put up with, not about what Darlings fekked up in the past, no one cares bout Darling.

  43. Grouse Beater says:

    The pnr: He talked of foodbanks and welfare, a fairer society and he meant it. This will be enough for a win for him in their eyes

    A fine point.

    Darling exhibited no shame over that. None.

    Instead, he feels we’re better accepting it – the ‘best of both worlds’ where it seems half the English hate us because they believe they subside us.

  44. Ken500 says:

    It doesn’t matter. No one is voting for them. They are voting to take responsibility and run their own country. YES or NO.

    The flags and posters from central belt to the North are 10/1 YES.

    An access street to Hampdem Stadium. One household NO banner. Opposite across the road 12 household are YES. Three YES posters in one window and two flags waving out the top flat. More YES household with poster in the windows round the corner.

    YES posters and flags around here. No NO’s. Two large – vote YES – ‘make Scotland a fairer and equal place’ in a prominent junction. Two smaller Scotland flags and a YES flag waving on a back fence in a strategic position. There is a large demand for YES merchandise. ie Posters,flags and car stickers. People are not asking for information, they are asking for YES flags.

    All to play for.

  45. Murray McCallum says:

    I remember reading that the UK government, in the event of a Yes vote, would want Scotland to commit to a currency union for at least 40+ years.

    There is no doubt rUK would benefit from a currency union for as long as Scotland produced significant amounts of oil.

    The bargaining is going to be about how long the currency union should last, not if it should take place.

    The inability of rUK to control its fiscal deficit or have any vision to correct this while maintaining social cohesion is why Scotland should avoid any long term currency union.

  46. Kev says:

    Truly staggering how the only argument Darling stuck to all night was a bare faced lie he himself dreamt up to scare folk with, how the fuck does that cretin sleep at night?

  47. gerry parker says:

    @Geeo.

    40 years sir.
    No excuse, you’d think I’d have learned by now but they’re cunning, and they never loose it 🙂

    Or maybe it’s me slipping in my old age.

    🙁

    Either way, I’m mourning the loss already.

  48. Grouse Beater says:

    Murray: I remember reading that the UK government, in the event of a Yes vote, would want Scotland to commit to a currency union for at least 40+ years

    Yes, absolutely.

    That’s the real negotiation.

    It isn’t whether three political parties – none with a majority – can stop Scotland using the pound, it’s how long they can benefit from a shared currency without Scotland creating its own when the economics make it viable and leaving them in a weak position.

  49. Nana Smith says:

    The FM got across a very important point, foodbanks on our doorsteps are not welcome in Scotland while a Westminster government is pushing for renewal of trident.

    I can’t remember how many foodbanks he said were in Glasgow alone but the fact that there are any at all anywhere in the country should make people question what the hell good has Westminster ever done for Scotland.

  50. Airdrieonian says:

    The point, rather badly, made by Darling about Iceland and Ireland being “bust” should have been used as a stick wth which to beat him.

  51. Grouse Beater says:

    I am a Scot who has had a home in his native land all his life and I am reading about food banks and being told I live in the best of all possible worlds?

    What crazy person thinks that’s progress?

  52. geeo says:

    Is it just me who does not believe that there are many/any “undecided” voters at this stage ?

    Is it more that people simply do not want to say so just say undecided ?

    What i cannot stand is the media pish after these debates, did we learn anything new ?
    No, and that was never the point of it imo.

    Simple example tonight, anyone actually watching that tonight and thinks that darling was anything other than massacred is either a liar or needs help.

    However, when you have the media we have, by tomorrow, darling will be getting put forward for the tory leadership by invitation of cameron !

    Not worth watching the “aftershow” programmes, same
    old gash from the same sad faces shitting themselves about a Yes vote.

  53. westie7 says:

    #Grouse Beater
    Never been anything less than 100%yes, my issue is I had hoped for measurable progress, even a smidge. But for those I am trying to educate, tonight was a dead loss when I had hope for most

  54. Ken500 says:

    Whose paying for Murphy’s road trip?

    It had better be Better together No thanks,

    When does he attend to his constituency matters by webcam. Or does he not have any.

  55. Tackety Beets says:

    A Yesser asked me today . What does Scotland need from the rUK ? EhhEHH Mmm I know what we dont need Trident , HOL , Westminster etc etc Exactly the yesser replied .
    Now the yesser asks me , What does the rUK want from us ? Ooo I can handle this one !
    Water ,Electricity ,gas , Oil , our Food and Drink export figures , etc etc Aye he replies , so how come when I go South of England-shire the petrol is cheaper than most places in Scotland ? Doh ! Stuck again ! ehh got it “Best of both worlds !” Keep up the good work everyone , we really have to do this .

  56. TD says:

    Heedtracker

    I really don’t know what your point is. All I am doing is pointing out that I don’t think our side got this right. Why does that mean I am taking the piss?

    If we are going to win this thing, we need to recognise when we don’t get it right so we can do better the next time. I am sure that at SNP and Yes headquarters they will be analysing this in great detail and they will change their tactics.

    If your idea of intelligent comment is just to say that it’s all wonderful and we are going to win, then all I can say is I think you are naive. But I wouldn’t be so offensive as to accuse you of taking the piss or of whingeing.

  57. Tackety Beets says:

    A Yesser asked me today . What does Scotland need from the rUK ? EhhEHH Mmm I know what we dont need Trident , HOL , Westminster etc etc Exactly the yesser replied .
    Now the yesser asks me , What does the rUK want from us ? Ooo I can handle this one !
    Water ,Electricity ,gas , Oil , our Food and Drink export figures , etc etc Aye he replies , so how come when I go South of England-shire the petrol is cheaper than most places in Scotland ? Doh ! Stuck again ! ehh got it “Best of both worlds !” Keep up the good work everyone , we really have to do this .

  58. geeo says:

    @gerry parker.

    I am still impressed you had 20 quid in your pocket !
    Did you have your wife’s troosers on maybe ?

  59. Footsoldier says:

    AS disappointing and silly questions about aliens and driving on rhs did not help at all. Maybe too much rehearsal beforehand took a natural oratical ability away. AD much more assertive than I expected. It is war and we did not win this battle no matter how it is dressed up. If anything this debate will have turned potential Yes’s right off.

    My belief that “keeping our powder dry” for a final onslaught, has definitely taken a dent not helped by a plethora of large No Thanks signs that have suddenly appeared in local fields in my area.

    People do not want to hear policies defined as “what is best for Scotland” & “financial levers” any more.

    Worried!

  60. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    I do not know why we just negotiate the case for CU as our Plan A and if we cannot get agreement we go for a S£ and make it clear there is no debt contribution.

    I have never seen the question being really pushed back on the No campaign by any politican or TV pundit about the consequences of the loss of the Scottish GDP and lack of our contribution to the repayment on the rUK economy.

    Why is this not being pushed?

    This is the NO Thanks Plan A and the consequences of it have never really been put under any real scrutiny.

  61. Grouse Beater says:

    Westie: But for those I am trying to educate, tonight was a dead loss when I had hope for most

    If you can turn down the audience participation you will hear the arguments clearly.

    The problem comes from those using phrases as ‘wipe the floor with Darling’ – it isn’t a wrestling match.

  62. Ken500 says:

    You agree to a currency union and then vote to decide how long it continues.

  63. Murray McCallum says:

    Well at least we all now officially know (from Scotland’s political pundits) that Alistair Darling’s shouting and angry performance means that he is actually very passionate about Scotland not being a normal country managing its own affairs.

  64. Michael McCabe says:

    Heads up. That was only the first half. We have just had all that flipper can throw at us. Alex will score a few goals in the second half at the BBC. Have Faith. Then all they have left is Cameron. Vote Yes.

  65. Grouse Beater says:

    When one politician says he thinks food banks obscene and the other says life here is good, only the selfish or fools will think the first politician misguided.

  66. Thepnr says:

    @TD

    You basically stated exactly what the First Minister said. Don’t give them a plan B just for them to rubbish that too and demand a plan C.

    Personally I would just go for an independent pound that would IMO pretty soon be be worth £1.20 sterling. I’m not making that up and it would be likely.

    Anyway, I doubt many visiting Maryhill foodbank really care about currency. As I said earlier only the chattering classes have a foot in that camp. The disenfranchised will decide this election.

    That’s why their scared haha fuck em.

  67. Devorgilla says:

    I agree with ThPnr. Forget the effing currency. ‘It’s a technical issue which will be resolved by political negotiation and Cameron has quite rightly ruled out pre-negotiation’. (Cameron can’t speak for Parliament or bind its hands).

    The war will be won on the left. Keep hitting them where they are weakest, rising inequalities, failure to control public debt, austerity, privatisation of NHS, fears over Barnett, Scotland a net contributor to UK, bloated unelected House of Lords, MPs corruption, Osborne’s father having an interest in Cuadrilla (fracking), Lamont saying we are genetically unable to make decisions, etc., etc.. Labour’s failings, Tories’ failings. Just keep on and on at their weak points and pointing out that sovereignty gives a range of levers that devolution cannot. Devolution is just pocket money. Sovereignty means you get to keep your entire pay-packet and own your own home.

  68. Kev says:

    @Airdrieonian

    Too right, those 2 small nations piss all over the UK in every health, wealth and equality indicator going, im sure Salmond knows this, just a pity he wasn’t on the ball tonight.

  69. Ken500 says:

    Everyone will have forgotten about it by next week.

    People do not worry about the currency/Queen or Borders. They worry about the economy. How worse off they feel. Look to optimistic resolution.

  70. Cindie says:

    ICM poll post debate is interesting, small numbers yes/no voters didn’t really change their pre debate opinions to any great extent. But 74% don’t knows thought that Alex had won. Raw data here: https://twitter.com/AlanRoden/status/496775062297395201/photo/1

  71. Minty says:

    According to the Twitters, undecideds think Salmond won, female voters were more convinced by Salmond than Darling and a snap ICM has Yes up 4%.

    A decent evening’s work.

  72. Haggis Hunter says:

    Better together and the BBC orchestrated the report for the news at 10, same old nonsense, but I can see most people are seeing thru it

  73. Les Wilson says:

    Ponsonby in my view was fixing the conversation especially with the audience. What was striking to me was the fact that Ponsonby definitely knew the currency was a major question that would challenge Salmond.

    Is it coincidence he picked 3 “random ” people from the audience that all attacked Alex Salmond, one after the other on the currency issue, I think not, he was setting the debate up for Darling.

  74. Murray McCallum says:

    Dr JM Mackintosh
    I agree with what you say and am sure that is what will be said in negotiations.

    To say it publicly now will open up a whole new fear factor front as better together will drag out all sorts of “respected experts” to say Alex Salmond is breaking international conventions, will damage Scotland’s credit rating and her ability to issue bonds, … and whatever else they pay them to say.

    I may be wrong on this and the Yes campaign come out with all guns blazing next time around. I do think it is a higher risk strategy if we are trying to shore up soft Yes votes and win over Undecideds.

  75. Ian Brotherhood says:

    FFS people, what’s with the negativity?

    AS has to be ‘diplomatic’, ‘statesmanlike’ etc…

    That’s what he did tonight. That’s HIS job. And he has to do it via MSM filters he knows like the back of his hand. Let him get on with it.

    The passion, satire, blood, snot, thunder and tears have to come from us – that’s OUR job. No-one in the MSM is going to do it, or honestly represent our efforts. We do it here, and face-to-face, with friends, neighbours, and anyone else we happen to meet.

    AS has been doing his bit. We wouldn’t be on the verge of independence if he hadn’t.

    Let’s concentrate on doing what we do best – exposing BTUKOKVNOBNOTHANKers up for the despicable shower they are.

  76. Harry McAye says:

    I don’t know why Alex didn’t just say, on the currency:

    “Look, George Osbourne and Alistair Darling do not want a Yes vote so they have colluded to agree that the UK will not entertain a currency union. I don’t blame them, I would be saying the same thing in their shoes. But when there is a Yes vote, that all changes. It is just a political ploy, a game, albeit a game that is not helping the people of Scotland. Common sense will dictate that there will be a currency union and this will become clear in the weeks and months following a Yes vote”.

    I was disappointed in him on this issue but everywhere else practically he won the argument, came across better than Mr Angry and was very statesmanlike. Annoyed to say the least that Yes appear to have been downbeat with BBC’s James Cook. If No are bragging they won (ridiculous) we bloody should too.

  77. Marcia says:

    A new thread has started – in a snap poll undecideds gave the debate to the FM.

  78. Devorgilla says:

    With sovereignty the choices are potentially infinite.

    In every situation that the British Empire has ever pulled out of, (despite the rhetoric) it has arranged things during the negotiations to ensure stability and viability. This is even more important when the new state is on your doorstep.

    Some muscle and grit needed here folks. Don’t be an armchair nationalist watching TV debates. Get out and campaign.

  79. TD says:

    Thepnr

    I agree with you re going for a Scottish pound. You just need to read the Mcrone report to see the impact on a Scottish £ of independence.

    But that is for the future and for many people would be a step too far at this time. This whole campaign is about self belief and many people that we need to vote Yes would not feel confident enough about Scotland to go down that route. Sad but true. So Salmond is quite right to say we will stick with what we know.

    After a few years, we should change to our own currency. And of course from an rUK perspective, that is their one justifiable gripe about a shared currency. They know that we would, at a time of our choosing, bail out and leave them to it. That would not be good for them. Better to threaten us into voting No so that the whole problem just goes away and they can keep taking our money.

  80. geeo says:

    Calgacus says:
    Aye blood and soil was a joke too flipper but guess what YOU are the joke.

    I was screaming at the telly for AS to throw the “blood and soil” slur back at darling and ask if that was a “joke”..

    Elsewhere, got a text from a pal who summed it up brilliantly.
    He said Scotland Tonight were interviewing folk coming out and asked an older chap if he learned anything new tonight, he replied he was a Yes voter so he basically didnt care who “won” he knew what HE was voting for.

  81. Grouse Beater says:

    Darling spent a lot of energy insulting Salmond – the ‘Have you ever thought you might be wrong?’ was a well rehearsed example.

    The man in the audience who turned the obvious on its head and said Salmond was doing all the insulting and we “were in trouble” was the most sinister comment of the evening.

  82. Haggis Hunter says:

    Well I’ve had a lift since reading on here, the BBC news realty fekked me off with their state run propaganda, good to see the strength of my Wings’ comrades. We need to keep getting out their with the conversations

  83. westie7 says:

    If you want to see negativity get over to the Yes Scotland Facebook page, just watch out for the trolls

  84. GrahamB says:

    Simple way to debunk the currency nonsense that NO seem to be using as their major/only weapon – big posters with Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank and Clydesdale fivers, tenners and twenties and the caption ‘This is the currency we will be using after Independence’. Doesn’t matter if we are in currency union or just use Sterling pegged to the London markets, personally I’d rather not risk being dragged down by a failing rUK.
    And as for all the mince about currency union needing political union – the countries using the Euro all have independent taxation rules (with some restrictions on VAT but not on income tax) and very different political regimes.
    Oh, and if anyone tells you we need the Bank of England as a ‘lender of last resort’ for Sterling remind them that the real ‘lender …’ is the Treasury, aka taxpayers and we will have our own taxpayers.

  85. Thepnr says:

    @TD

    OK agreed. I have read McCrone also. If anyone on here hasn’t than you should, it can be found in the reference section.

  86. Marco McGinty says:

    @Grouse Beater
    The man in the audience who turned the obvious on its head and said Salmond was doing all the insulting and we “were in trouble” was the most sinister comment of the evening.

    Aye, and he was obviously a plant by the lying BT crowd, and was most probably known about by STV.

    I wish Salmond had responded to the slur, or he was at least given the opportunity to reply

  87. Robert Peffers says:

    @Balaaargh says: 5 August, 2014 at 11:24 pm:

    “The woman who is “still waiting for an answer from Alex Salmond about Plan B!” Does she pelt his house with eggs in the middle of the night shouting that? Or chase him down the street with a banner, “Answer me, Alex! Answer me!” like some fixated stalker?”

    Well that particular woman must be stone deaf. I’ll count then tomorrow when I re-run the recording but I counted quite a few times that Eck said Scotland would use the Pound Sterling. Darling seems stone deaf too as he also kept saying Salmond had not answered or he kept asking what Plan B was. It you are going to use the pound, and no one can stop you from using it, why would you need a Plan B?.

    Whether we use it in a currency union or not in a currency union will not change the plain answer An Independent Scotland will use the pound.

    We might peg it to the pound English; let it float free of the pound English; or call the already distinctive Scottish Banknotes, The Pound Sterling Scottish but it will be the Pound that we use.

    So the currency union or not currency union does not change the one and only plan to use THE POUND STERLING and that was exactly what Eck told the whole World that was listening (now) Last Night.

  88. Bill Hume says:

    OK, it took a while, but I’ve looked at all their Facebook entries and left a suitable comment on each one….and a link back to this article……..what a shower they are.

  89. JWil says:

    Even some YES voters saying they don’t have enough information. I get the feeling that it would not matter how much information was out there it still wouldn’t be enough for the undecided dohs!

    Salmond wasted some valuable question time. I thought his tactic was a preparation to lead Darling into a more serious question that he would be unable to answer and it was. The one about Scotland being able to be a successful independent country.

    Having two people on opposing sides being asked, ‘who won?’, is not going to shed any light.

  90. Alex Salmond tonight changed a lot of voters opinion of Alex Salmond ,winning the debate was not the primary purpose here it was to change the negativity that can suround his personality with a high percentage of undecided voters.
    I know a lot of YES voters wanted to see Darlings head in a basket but that would not have won over any undecided who are what we need to win the vote. Let `No` think the mad shouty Darling done OK, Salmond was the one that came across as a thoughtful ,caring ,dignified politician. Thats what he wanted and thats what happened.

  91. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    If I may be allowed to make a slight correction to a previous post I saw no evidence of a biased broadcaster in the course of the programme. The BBC and STV round-ups were very balanced

    the ITV round-up was a complete travesty however

  92. Jack McKenzie says:

    I have some concerns over some people’s interpretation of the debate, esp. re: currency. We know what the position on currency will be. Alex has told us repeatedly.

    No one is going to take that pound out of your pocket. Repeat.

    Undecideds and no’s need to be aware of why rUK needs CU, and how crucial this is to rUK economy. More crucial than it is to Scotland.

    AS needs to hammer this home, along with former BofE Chief Mervyn King’s observation to Alex that Westminster’s tune will change overnight when we vote Yes.

    Yes are not stuck on the currency issue. BT are.

    No way did Darling ‘win’ this. He just got much less of a kicking than everyone expected. We need to manage those expectations folks….

  93. heedtracker says:

    The EU is a huge currency union with over 18 EU countries and 10 non EU countries, the worlds most successful countries and none of them want political union with the other.

    Yet all we get is Darling and co project fearing it that another country’s 600 MP’s have got to run Scotland.

    BettertogetherBBC etc is just one giant con.

  94. Ken500 says:

    Is there now a limit on how much the NO campaign can spend.

  95. JWil says:

    @Grouse Beater

    “The man in the audience who turned the obvious on its head and said Salmond was doing all the insulting and we “were in trouble” was the most sinister comment of the evening”

    It sure was. He must have spent hours making that one up to criticise Salmond and it didn’t even correspond to anything we saw in the debate. Was he John MacIntyre OBE, Woking?

    There were some good questions coming from the audience. However, in these debates where the MC goes round the audience asking several people for questions is a waste of time. One question at time would serve the questioner better as there is no immediacy in toting up several questions and frustration for the viewer.

  96. Michael McCabe says:

    Alex Salmond is over on off topic at 12:35 The first Minister with a Heart.

  97. msean says:

    If you keep asking the same folk before and after,you will keep getting the same answer.(re after debate poll)

  98. Chic McGregor says:

    @Socrates

    “Douglas Alexander quoted as tweeting: “This was Alex Salmond’s Waterloo”.

    Had he been interested in Scotland, he would have used Flodden.”

    Napoleon’s real ‘Waterloo’ (in the metaphorical British mythos sense) was the Battle of Leipzig (aka Battle of Nations), which was really what destroed his ambitions and saw his eventual exile to Elba in 1814.

    When he returned he never regained anything like the same support he had done previously and defeat at Waterloo in 1815, or elewhere, was by then inevitable.

    Was disappointed by the debate tonight. Alex looked tired and Darling’s sound bites, while unsurprisingly Orwellian, were well rehearsed.

    Alex still won, but only because the facts are on our side rather than by performance.

    The expected humiliation of the Darling monster did not really happen.

  99. Ken500 says:

    William Hague retiring from ‘politics’. Guilty as charged.

    Hague parading about with (I’ll researched) Jolie. Campaigning againt abuse worldwide. Even suggestions the people who knowingly oppress abuse should be charged and jailed.

    Hague knowingly oppressed the reports of children in Children’s homes being abused by Tory Politicans. Hague was the Minister in charge.

  100. Lochside says:

    Chic Magregor/Socrates: Nemotode Alexander displays his complete ignorance with his pathetic tweet about ‘Waterloo’.

    If this cretin had any knowledge of Scottish History, he would realise that a major turning point in the battle, apart from Blucher’s Prussians arriving on the scene at the last minute, was the charge by the Scots Greys with the Gordons hanging off their stirrups, at the French.

    This painting is known as ‘Scotland Forever’ very appropriate reposte to a ("Tractor" - Ed)ous wee toalie, don’t you think?

  101. Awayanbileyerheed says:

    I was at the debate but couldn’t ask a question! Seats were allocated prior to arriving following a vetting process. Most of the people next to me beside the center floor seats were Yes and we had our hands up for the entire meeting and were looked at but none of our section were ever asked. Only the center floor section were asked.
    They asked what way we were going to vote and a potential question at the weekend before the debate. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions

  102. geeo says:

    @scott finlayson.

    A very good take on the approach by the FM.

    Moving away from the podium towards the audience was genius, softened his body language and made him much more personable.

    Lets be honest here, if people do not have enough info to make a decision by now they have not taken enough responsibility to go find it for themselves.

    How hard is it to use google these days ?

  103. Helena Brown says:

    msean says:
    6 August, 2014 at 12:52 am

    If you keep asking the same folk before and after,you will keep getting the same answer.(re after debate poll)

    I have been saying this about the polls for months now. We should remember that they are asking the same people because they are giving them the answer they want.

  104. stuart says:

    they seem to have deleted all the ‘critique’ from their facebook page today ….



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