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Wings Over Scotland


The only stat that matters

Posted on August 05, 2014 by

As so insightfully predicted by Lallands Peat Worrier yesterday, the media has raced to proclaim victory for Alistair Darling in tonight’s STV debate. For our money, the only winners were the people who watched something else.

The debate was a mess – not quite as shambolic as Nicola Sturgeon and Johann Lamont’s effort on the same channel a few months back, but none of the lessons from that trainwreck were learned. Darling was angry and personal from the start, while Salmond was off-form and the strategy he adopted for dealing with the only subject Darling wanted to talk about – currency – was absolutely dreadful.

angryal

We warned back in February that Yes couldn’t just keep flatly saying “There will be a currency union” for seven months, even if it’s true, and the studio audience was deeply and audibly unimpressed with Salmond’s evasion of Darling’s repeated question, even if the tactic got old and tired when the No man was still using it an hour later.

But we’re not going to get into too much spin, because our view is partisan. The main evidence used for the hasty declarations of a “triumph” for Darling was a snap poll conducted immediately afterwards by ICM for the Guardian. But on even a cursory examination, the poll actually found the opposite of what the media said it did.

icmtable3

What those numbers show is that – astoundingly – people who were Yes voters before the debate thought Salmond won, and those who were No voters before the debate thought Darling won, both by enormous margins. Colour us shocked. But the telling stats are among the people the debate was targeted at – the Don’t Knows.

And what the poll discovered is that among voters who’d started out as undecideds, Salmond won by 55-45. Among those who remained undecided at the end the First Minister was still judged to have done best, by a thumping 74 to 26.

That’s a very different story to the one you’ll read in tomorrow’s newspapers. The people closest to neutral, and the ones whose votes were actually being fought for, gave the win to Salmond. That, not the spin from either side, is the only thing that will ultimately count at the ballot box in six weeks’ time.

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Marcia

The referendum will be decided by these at present undecided voters.

link to twitter.com

davidb

But if those voters now see media reports that are completely at odds with what their own eyes saw, can we hope they will begin to realise that they cannot trust anything they read. I am reminded of Chemical Ali in Iraq…..

Calum Craig

Yay, I win thanks to broken STV stream!

Defo

Thanks for picking out the fine detail Stu. I’ll take that 55-45, happily.

Craig Murrays take on it. Hope you don.t mind.

“I am truly astonished by the debate format, designed to leave no time at for consideration – or considered answers – on any of the questions and to ramp up the speed and sheer hysteria of the programme. The cutting aside to the “spin room” and that really horrible shoutey New Labour numptie woman. Also a very strange absence of the Tories, who are financing the Better Together campaign, and the other unionist elements.”

He means you Fifi.

kendomacaroonbar

Excellent

heedtracker

Say it long, say it loud. Scotland wants to run Scotland.

Among those who remained undecided at the end the First Minister was still judged to have done best, by a thumping 74 to 26.

Murray McCallum

Well maybe that’s the lesson not to be a shouting, angry politician that doesn’t even answer the questions he asks himself.

Timorous Beastie

New posts, please share

todayinscotland | The Referendum Blues
link to todayinscotland.wordpress.com

Indy_Scot

Its funny I was just thinking that, maybe the debate did not appeal to the people in the know, because they are in the know. Maybe it was meant for the people not in the know.

Patrician

I still think this was a tactical mistake by Mr Salmond. Denis Canavan should have debated with Alistair Darling. Mr Darling is only head of the No Scotland campaign, he has no authority to promise anything, he is just “wind and fury signifying nothing”.

Grouse Beater

Can’t agree that salmond’s adherence to Choice 1 was weak.

He knows to drop that ball has his opponents all over him as uncertain, weak, can’t make up his mind.

It isn’t any way to negotiate by entering the room and saying, if nobody likes what I am going to propose I do have other ideas, just not half as good.

Dr JM Mackintosh

Rev Stu,
You were bang on months ago and still correct. There is nothing wrong with a plan B which should be S£ pegged to sterling or not.

Simpler if Yes just stated that and stopped holding on the CU issue at all costs.

Possibly it will end up with a CU anyway so may as well spell out what Plan B is in some detail and its implications both for Scotland and rUK.

heedtracker

@ Patrician, hellooooooooooooh, read the stats

And what the poll discovered is that among voters who’d started out as undecideds, Salmond won by 55-45. Among those who remained undecided at the end the First Minister was still judged to have done best, by a thumping 74 to 26.

TheBauer

Comical Ali you mean? Chemical Ali was the one who gassed the Kurds in Helebje, Comical Ali the one proclaiming Saddam’s victory.

Lesley-Anne

I hope that all those undecided voters who were asked about tonight’s debate read all the guff in the morning’s papers and make a reasoned decision to move, even slightly, more to YES ready for fully voting YES in September.

There is only ONE way BBC and MSM can come out with an Alistair Darling win and that is to look at the figures for NO voters and NO voters alone. As Stu says, the debate was aimed at the Don’t Knows and in that case Alex Salmond has won handsomely. Admittedly he was already ahead before the debate but he must have done something right during the debate to shift so many undecided’s over to making him the winner by the end of the debate where his vote went UP and Darling’s vote went DOWN!

Robert Bryce

I had a chance conversation with a woman yesterday where something clicked with me. She didn’t actually care about what currency we would be using. In her words “I don’t have enough money any way so I don’t care about what currency we have”.

Despite Alistair Darling’s insistence I’m not convinced any one REALLY cares about it. I don’t. If it’s the pound it’s the pound if it’s no it’s not. If I can pay for the roof over my head and food on my table then that’s what matters most.

I’m not entirely sure it’s the big thing the media make out. Tonight all Darling done was reinforce the currency situation in those already voting no.

Ordinary punters don’t really give a shit. It’s ordinary punters that will win the referendum.

The debate was shite but Salmond made a more positive case for yes than Darling could for No. He simply spewed out the fear mantra with nothing positive at all.

For me it’s no surprise undecided voters saw through it and leaned towards Salmond.

Tackety Beets

I think AS needed to appeal to DKs and anyone who is not keen on him. Meant he had to appear not overly confident but this found him in a place he is unaccustomed . Its done now ,move on . We all need to keep chipping away in our “locals” and make a few more conversions as we go . It feels like the polls are off the mark , plenty Yessers to seen.

Devorgilla

I think Salmond was ‘off form’ because he was trying to tone down his usual pugative style in order to appeal to female voters but his attempt to be more ‘statesmanlike’ lacked gravitas and authority, and merely came across as complacent, even flat and lack lustre.

Whilst I think this is an issue for Salmond (to modify his technique according to different audiences) I would also give the advice I regularly give my students – and that is, never to try experimentation when it is an ‘exam’ and the matter is critical.

Best just to stick to what you know, and what you are comfortable with.

Leave experimentation and development of different approaches to low key situations and don’t launch them in critical situations until you have perfected them.

Scots Renewables

Salmond won’t discuss Plan B because it would only get attacked and cause a clamour for Plan C. We all know what Plan B is anyway. (And plan C – it’s all set out in the Fiscal Commission Working Group report)

My bet is, if it is still an issue in the final week he will confess to a (sensible) Plan B then, when it is too late for a big counter-attack and there is too much else going on for the counter-attack to be effective anyway.

Grouse Beater

Dr MacIntosh: Simpler if Yes just stated that and stopped holding on the CU issue at all costs.

He did. He did exactly that.

He pointed out the White Paper has other solutions, but he’s elected to do the best for Scotland, and Scotland’s best advisers say a shared currency is the best one, plus the dividend is, it benefits England too.

That way keeps our ties as two nations on one land mass. Cries of separatism are therefore bogus.

kendomacaroonbar

Dr JM

To admit to a plan B agrees with the no side that there will be no CU.

Iain

And that poll also showed a 4% swing to Yes on previous ICM. Just imagine the swing if Eck had been firing on all cylinders.

An aposite post on Scot Goes Pop from Mick Pork:

‘here’s a fairly representative example from the caledonian mercury of the press and media debate analysis from the 2011 debate where Iain Gray and Salmond clashed. Since some of us do actually remember that campaign and it’s debates.

“None of the leaders emerged as the clear winner of the debate. Tavish Scott, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, gave his best performance of the campaign – possibly because he has become so resigned to doing badly that he has relaxed enough to enjoy it.

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservative leader, did not quite make the impression she has done in previous debates, but was clear and decisive – while Alex Salmond was his solid, competent self without excelling and dominating the way his party managers had hoped he would.”

Now here’s the toughest question of all for the comedy Britnats.

What happened next?

LOL

geeo

What the media THINK means nothing to someone standing at the ballot box on the 18th september.

The other well said point made regularly here, Yes voters will turn out in HUGE % numbers, will all the “i hate salmond” zoomers who say No turn out to vote ?

Blue Horse Shoe

Having raced home from canvassing, I could have punched the wall. It was poor. But we should all have learned by know that this lot won’t win it for us, it is us. And on the currency, the question is not of currency but of a plan B and by Christ the message on the doorstep is simple –

In an Independent Scotland you will still be paid in pounds sterling
In an Independent Scotland your pension will still be in pounds sterling
Transactions in Scotland will be in pounds sterling
Transactions with the rUK will be in pounds sterling
Banks will operate as normal
“Will there be a currency union?” This is very likely but not certain as this will be part of the negotiations
“What about Plan B?” In fact there are three, peg the currency, Scottish currency or Euro (p107). Euro won’t happen. The other two options operate successfully around the world but aren’t favoured in reality by either Scotland or rUK despite the rhetoric. Ask Hammond.

Now Salmond tool up and quote your own white paper and help us doorsteppers out

Borderer

Playing devil’s advocate I’d say another stat matters too – the number of undecideds that had migrated to ‘no’ by the end of the debate. That is something to be a little concerned about, I think.

Tartan Cyclist

I didn’t see the debate live so I saw everyone going on about how Salmond looked bad because of the lack of plan B. Just watched the re-run now and that is a flash in the plan. It really wasn’t as bad as people made out.

Adrian B

If one person in a debate goes shouty/angry with pointed fingers early on then its going to be difficult to overcome this in a calm and reasoned manner.

I don’t think that everything went the way that Salmond wanted and some things could perhaps have been answered a little better. However if you wish to work with others and take others with you then responding in an angry fashion needs to be avoided.

This was never going to be a kick ass presentation from Salmond – its not really his style and it will not help to win over undecided voters – leave that to those that can get away with that presentation style like Jim Sillars, Dennis Canavan and Tommy Sheridan.

Gary

AS has to kill the currency argument stone dead in the eyes of the undecideds. Ii know it is a distraction and the only reason its thought to be important is because BT says so. The legs must be cut from under them on this, they don’t have anything else, they’re a one trick pony.

Jimmy the Pict

To the PISS poor of Scotland
AD “I want.I.want. I.want”
AS “We nee a fair Scotland”

Choose.

Currency does no matter. Food does. Heating does.

Ian

Been following your excellent posts for a year but just thought I had to say something after tonight. You really hit the nail on the head about currency. People wanted more from Salmond. Hope its not a chance lost as that was how it must have come over. Also trying to be swarmy about UFO’s and driving wrong side of road-way off target and made me cringe-far better to attack on NHS or lies about oil.

Jimmy the Pict

P.S. I have bee PISS poor in my life.

Lesley-Anne

What happened next?

LOL

Gosh I’ve no idea Iain, no don’t tell me it’ll come to me just give me a minute to figure it out. 😉

We were attacked by aliens? … NO that can’t be it cause Hammond said they’d only attack if we went independent. 😛

erm … it wasn’t … a win … no it couldn’t be that, could it? … it wasn’t an SNP win by any chance? 😀

Jimmy the Pict

Sorry about the missing d

Democracy Reborn

Stu,

Good riposte to the bullshit spin by the MSM.

I can’t believe the negativity of some posters on the previous thread. Short of Darling imploding, did anyone seriously believe the MSM would spin it other than a ‘win’ for him? Too many Yesers were unrealistic in their belief that AS would skewer Darling. Darling lies, distorts & obfuscates, but hae’s not a total mug.

Saw a tweet by Libby Brooks from the Guardian. Post debate poll also showed AS coming over as more “appealing” than Darling by 47% to 39%. Not unimportant, especially for female voters.

TYRAN

Format of the show is shit. It’s like a stage tour version of FMQ. Prefer something like the QT format over this with more voices. Canavan, Harvie and Sturgeon would be my choices. Instead we’re going to get this style again. Be like a rerun but in a different venue.

handclapping

Stu, I’m surprised at you!

433 sample size, 17-34 uprated more than twice and you are using their “data” in support rather than blasting it for the nonsense it is.

Too much electioneering, time to revert to basic journalism.

Grouse Beater

Salmond represents Scotland.

He represents me and all others no matter how we vote.

Who does Darling represent?

TD

Delighted with these numbers. Maybe Alex knows a thing or two after all. Which is fair enough – he’s the FM and leader of the SNP.

Just on the currency point, I accept that having a roof over your head and food on the table are the most important issues for most people. But please let’s not be so naive as to think that the currency does not matter. If we get that wrong, we could potentially be unable to afford a roof or food. To afford the things we need, we need a strong economy. To have a strong economy, we need a trusted currency. That could be the £ sterling, or my choice a £ Scots. But don’t say it doesn’t matter – it does.

Jim68

This actually surprises me. I thought the currency question would have cost YES a lot more. Salmond had the wrong strategy, saying “You’re lying, so we don’t need a plan B” is no answer when people are dealing with “project fear”. rUK may do a scorched earth, and try to blame blame indy as a distraction. SOME kind of backup is essential for peace of mind.

Michael

But the problem, Gary, is that the undecideds thought he’d won. They weren’t bothered about the currency question. That’s the whole point of this article.

Paul Kelly

I don’t understand why there are so many dejected Yes voters. We were using sterling in an independent Scotland this morning, when we were winning. We will be using sterling in an independent Scotland tomorrow when we’re winning. The audience was hand picked to be pro-no, hence the boo’s. Stop worrying peeps! I can’t understand why Salmond didn’t focus on Darlings credibility more and all the lies he’s told personally? He should pay more attention to his Wings!

Peter A Bell

For reasons that I am tired of explaining Salmond cannot – must not – get drawn into talking about a “Plan B” on currency. If people don’t understand those reasons now then they probably never will. Unless Salmond actually did fall into the trap. And then they’d be saying how foolish he was not to stick to his position.

Where Salmond missed an opportunity was his failure to turn the currency issue around by quizzing Darling on who made the decision to threaten abolition of the currency union; what advice was sought prior to making the threat; and what consideration was given to the implications for the economy of rUK.

Salmond pretty much wasted the chance to challenge Darling directly on Better Together scaremongering. I’m bloody annoyed about that.

Grendel

“Grouse Beater says:
6 August, 2014 at 12:17 am
Dr MacIntosh: Simpler if Yes just stated that and stopped holding on the CU issue at all costs.

He did. He did exactly that.

He pointed out the White Paper has other solutions, but he’s elected to do the best for Scotland, and Scotland’s best advisers say a shared currency is the best one, plus the dividend is, it benefits England too.”

He should have stated it plainly, not “refer to page 4 of the fiscal commission report.”

An awful performance by Salmond. Didn’t come across as trustworthy.

Grendel

“Grouse Beater says:
6 August, 2014 at 12:17 am
Dr MacIntosh: Simpler if Yes just stated that and stopped holding on the CU issue at all costs.

He did. He did exactly that.

He pointed out the White Paper has other solutions, but he’s elected to do the best for Scotland, and Scotland’s best advisers say a shared currency is the best one, plus the dividend is, it benefits England too.”

He should have stated it plainly, not “refer to page 4 of the fiscal commission report.”

An awful performance by Salmond. Didn’t come across as trustworthy.

Nana Smith

Well for what its worth I thought the FM was braw.

He didn’t insult anyone, unlike darling who grimaced and pointed and generally disrespected the first minister of Scotland.

Invisible handcuffs

Alistair Darling keeps saying “definitely no currency union” but tonight Alistair Darling said something like “even if you do negotiate a Currency Union…..”.

Chris Paton

Sorry, I’m a Yes voter, but is this right? Surely the 74% and 26% refers to those who had yet to make their minds up after the debate (a total of 31 people), whereas there were a total of 57 don’t knows before the debate – but that means 26 made their minds up by the end of it. The number of No Voters who thought Alistair won increased by 18, the number of Yes voters who thought Alex won increased by 14 by the end. The bit I genuinely don’t get is how 35 people (20%) started off as Yes voters but thinking Alistair Darling would win, dropping to 34 after, whilst 21 No voters thought Alex would win beforehand, dropping to 15 after? Why would you assume Darling would win if you were a Yes voter, and vice versa? That’s why I am not sure I am interpreting these right, seems odd?

Sorry, I have been struggling with this for 20 mins as I am not a mathematician, and am one bottle of wine down the road from misery to happiness!

I actually thought the debate was a score draw – which means that if Yes is to gain momentum, we need to do more at the grass roots level than just rely on the FM.

TYRAN

“What currency do you want to be flipping your house with, Darling? How much was that? Let’s talk about what you were up to…”. That’s how you answer.

Lesley-Anne

Thing is Grendel he not only referred to page 4 of the Fiscal Commission Report but he did in fact also state quite clear and in simple terms during the debate that we would be using the pound, a shared currency is the best option and that this option is in the best interests of England as well.

Robert Bryce

TD,
Every voter needs to be catered for. I understand that. My point is that for many it’s not on their radar in any way shape or form. They live hand to mouth. Currency to them is moot.

As you assert above though, I’m sure AS knows what he’s doing 🙂

Dave McEwan Hill

I’m entirely in agreement with Craig Murray here. The format was awful and allowed absolutely no time for considered and expanded explanations.

I suspect in a few days most will remember Darling shouting and Salmond being nice,friendly and less confrontational.

The ITV round-up was absolutely bizarre and obviously well prepared in advance.

I disagree with Stu on the currency issue. Firstly most people are not hugely exercised by that issue and secondly and increasing number of people now know we can use the pound if we want to. I think it is quite clever just to tie Better Together up on that issue and that of the EU. Both these issues are very far from any priority with most voters.

Salmond’s quiet determination to keep saying we will be keeping the pound because it is in England’s and Scotland’s best interest is gaining traction

mr thms

Remember the furore when George Osborne came to Edinburgh and said it wasn’t our pound, then left without taking questions? The polls had a surge in support for Yes afterwards. Alex Salmond was right to pull up Alistair Darling. It’s also our pound..

Brian Powell

Evan if the papers don’t put this out, two million people here will read it, and those of us in Scotland will be spreading it around.

Dougie

Sorry I sat with undecideds and as much as they hate Darling. They hate salmond more!Blair jenkins ,Patrick harvie, Michelle Thomson , would all have been far more effective
Tonight was a wasted opportunity
And NHS was missed a crucial vote winner a massive fail for me sorry

adam ogilvie

iv just wasted 2 hour of my life watching this dribble

Colin McCartney

I see that “Ms ordinary woman Lally” was in the spin room, gets about a bit doesn’t she?

Andy Howie

Surprised no one has noticed, there is a 3.2% swing from No to Yes in that poll! This is on top of the 4% swing already. It is within our grasp to finally rise up and be a nation again

Darren Martin

Strong yes voter here but from what I can read the data shows that of the of the 31 people in the survey who were undecided pre-debate and felt Salmond won, 8 of them turned YES. Of the 26 people who were undecided pre-debate and felt Darling won, 18 of them turned NO. Of the remaining 31 people still undecided even after the debate, 74% thought Salmond won. Indicates that tonight’s undecideds went more to the NO side, but those remaining undecided are leaning YES. I might be reading it wrong but that’s what I can ascertain. Though not a massive sample though with 435 people, so probably got a large margin of error. Salmond was poor tonight but here’s hoping it doesn’t go against the Yes vote too much.

Brian Mchugh

Stu… you should know better… this is a marathon, not a sprint.

…there is a long way to go and a hell of a lot of dry powder.

😉

John Lyons

WHY SALMOND ISNT AVOIDING THE QUESTION ON PLAN B IN A NUTSHELL
It’s like asking me how I’m getting to work

“I’ll take the car”

– But what if you can’t

– but I can it’s the best option

– but what if it’s broken and you can’t use it? What’s your plan B?

I don’t need one I will take the car but I can take the other car, I could take one of three buses, I could take a taxi, I could walk”

So which other method will you choose.

I won’t I’ll take the car

But what is your plan B?

Well any one of a range of options

So what transport will you use

I’ll take the car

But what if it’s broke

It isn’t

What’s plan b?

Well there are a range of options

So how are you getting to work?

I’ll take the car

What if you can’t?

But I can

What’s plan b?

Well there are a range of options but I’ll be taking the car!!!!

You aren’t answering my question!!!!

See what I mean?

Courtesy of my clever wife Susan Lyons.

AnneDon

I think we are all too close to the debate to judge how the FM performed, which is why I’m pleased to see these figures.

I thought the FM improved as the debate went on; I could have lived happily without being taken back to the “spin room” to be told what I’d just seen, as if I was too thick to understand it, and the show could have been a lot shorter as a consequence.

However, as it went on and the FM had the chance to calm down and answer questions, he came over better.

It also reminded me how rarely we see him being spoken to and allowed to finish what he’s saying.

Darling is an angry man, out to defend his future seat in the House of Lords. I imagine even the dogs in the street could tell that.

Dr JM Mackintosh

@Peter A Bell,

good post – that is what I am trying to get over – why is nobody pointing out the disaster for the rUK if there is no currency union.

It never seems to get raised – the consequences of a plan B , plan C or plan D (some time after C) for the rUK economy.

John Lyons

It’s like asking me how I’m getting to work

“I’ll take the car”

– But what if you can’t

– but I can it’s the best option

– but what if it’s broken and you can’t use it? What’s your plan B?

I don’t need one I will take the car but I can take the other car, I could take one of three buses, I could take a taxi, I could walk”

So which other method will you choose.

I won’t I’ll take the car

But what is your plan B?

Well any one of a range of options

So what transport will you use

I’ll take the car

But what if it’s broke

It isn’t

What’s plan b?

Well there are a range of options

So how are you getting to work?

I’ll take the car

What if you can’t?

But I can

What’s plan b?

Well there are a range of options but I’ll be taking the car!!!!

You aren’t answering my question!!!!

See what I mean?

David Fee

I was disappointed that Alex didn’t ask Darling: “So if Scotland votes Yes, will you personally refuse to let us use Sterling”. I would like to have seen him be put on the spot on that point at least. I think that Mr Salmond had TOO much talk with advisors beforehand.

Anyhow. I called it for Darling. So what do I know. It’s all still up for grabs. And apparently this debate my even have improved the situation for Yes. Yes!

CharlieMurphy

Come now, those ‘don’t know’ figures you’re clinging to come from such a small sample. A difference of fifteen people. Absolutely laughable.

Come on, Eck took a pasting. I’ll admit, I was very surprised . delighted, but surprised. Yes supporters I’ve spoken to have admitted it too. Squeaky bum time for the nats.

Jock Scot

Hi. I thought that Salmond came across as ‘one of the people’ and it is my belief that % of those with Nothing to lose/risk has swung back to the majority and the 55/45 split ties in with this. Remember the sentiment of Labour’s ‘Things can only get better’ theme which kicked the Thatcher Tories out. Shame it was Blair using the image instead of John Smith. Daring is, as always, a Twat. For those of you who have any doubts..TRUST the people of Scotland…Salmond does, so why not you?

Grouse Beater

Styuart: The line Salmond used tonight is not tenable with the public, and that’s all that matters a damn.

He has argued, publically, that to discuss a Plan B is to weaken Scotland’s case before he has reached negotiations. I agree with that. He has also point out there is a Plan, B, C, D, and so on, and to read the White Paper.

We keep hearing Joe Public say, with regular monotony, there are too many unanswered questions, that after months of questions being answered, analysed and answered again. I am sure many have never troubled to seek out the White Paper if they were never in possession of one.

There are people who will never shake off their anxieties no matter what you tell them or what guarantees there are.

It’s naive to assume open discussing of Plan B will stop the aggression of the Fear Campaign in its tracks because they will be satisfied. Their entire MOD is muddying the water by whatever means is at their disposal.

Their motto is, ‘Keep the public befuddled.’

Murray McCallum

I personally will not watch another debate if the same format is used. I’m sick of it. I thought Alistair Darling, as well as being Mr Angry, failed to remotely answer anything.

Maybe each politician should be asked the same set of questions. The questions could come from the studio audience or from online. Each politician should have a set time to answer. If they do not answer it should be highlighted as such by the Chair.

This would also ensure a wider variety of topics were covered.

Proud Cybernat
Lesley-Anne

I think JL, or rather his wife (doffs hat! 😉 ), has hit this currency fandango squarely on the head.

No matter how AS answers Darling’s rants about what Plan B is he will always come back with “Yes but what currency will an independent Scotland use?”

The problem is not so much that AS hasn’t answered the question, he has, it is more a point that Darling does not like the answer and wants a different answer. Unfortunately for Darling he aint going to be getting one any time soon! Darling seems incapable of accepting the simplest of facts that AS has answered his question and given him a definitive answer to boot i.e. an independent Scotland WILL be using the pound.

Now the fact that Darling does not like that answer is not AS’s problem it is one for Darling. The longer and longer he continues with this absurd “What currency will you use?” routine whilst constantly being told “We’ll be using the pound.” then it is HIM and not AS who looks the bigger idiot. He may not like the answer but hey that’s life chum! We all get into situations where we don’t like the answer but hey we all get on with life I suggest Darling does the same … move on Bubba the whole world knows what currency an independent Scotland will be using. The fact you do not like that answer is YOUR problem, accept this FACT and move on or, as you seem to want to do, keep doing what you are doing and look an even bigger idiot every time you ask this boring question!

Grouse Beater

Grendel: Didn’t come across as trustworthy.

Like your opinion?

Here it is in black and white. But don’t take that as Gospel. This black and white isn’t trustworthy?

You are a wag.

Patrician

@heedtracker at 12:13 am

“@Patrician, hellooooooooooooh, read the stats”

hellooooooooooooh, read the spin. We who visit this site are savvy enough to know when we are being told lies. Unfortunately, people who don’t visit this site and only rely on the MSM have this spun as a Darling win, also not everyone watching the news will have watched the debate.

To make matters worse, Mr Salmond felt a bit “off” at the beginning of the debate, too much media/presentation experts input?

Cuilean

My phone supplier is BT (British Telecom), an English company. If ‘YES’, will BT still want me to pay them? Of course. Will I be paying them in pounds? Er … yes. There you have it, Flipper. That’s what will happen to the currency on Scots independence. And. Life. Goes. On.

Truth

Thanks Stu, you know how to make us feel better.

Was feeling a bit deflated after the debate, but Salmond knows what he is doing, and this observation confirms it.

Grouse Beater

I found Darling to be neurotic, shrill, abusive, pointing the finger in accusation, and mono-manic.

The problem for a lot of posters here is their familarity with Salmond’s arguments. I think people expected he’d develop them to a great extent. You just can’t do that in that debate format. It’s devised for maximum confrontation.

Dave McEwan Hill

Charlie Murphy
Rubbish and you know it. I can’t even remember what Darling actually said about anything and that’s only a couple of hours ago. I do remember him shouting a lot and Alex Salmond being very quietly controlled. That’ll be a major image of many who watched though they might not know that yet.

As for the papers – we all knew exactly what they were going to say anyway.

And, by the way – we’ll be using the pound.

Capella

I think AS is quite right on the currency issue. Research into voter attitudes to currency and EU membership carried out by Tom Farmer months ago shows that it comes at the bottom of the list of voter priorities. We basically don’t care what currency we use or whether we are EU members.
What is important though is to stick to your favoured option. There is no point in spelling out plan B because we will then be harangued about plan C then plan D etc etc. The purpose of whinging on about plan B is to create uncertainty.
What currency will you use? The pound
Yes but answer the question, what currency? The pound
Why won’t you answer the question? The pound.

Cath

I was disappointed in Salmond but there is two things I’ve taken away from Facebook tonight. One is that people who have been shy to talk about the referendum before are all discussing it now.

And two is the sense of disappointment and disillusionment. The worst of that is coming from Yes voters, but I’ve seen none who have shifted to don’t know or no. Instead the’ve become more determined to get their own version of facts out there, most of whom now think they can do better than Eck.

But the second worst sense of disappointment is coming from those who have recently converted or are still slithering slightly towards yes. That sense of disappointment is not so much with Salmond and the Yes campaign, as it is with the solid Yes voters, but in the fact that they seem to have been hoping to be convinced for sure and weren’t.

If people are wanting to be convinced, that’s a good thing. But also if they feel somehow disappointed Yes didn’t win, that bodes well for what they’ll plump for on Sept 18th. After all, Darling didn’t give any positive vision for Scotland or positive reasons to vote no at all – he won on the currency issue by sheer doggedness, but will that be enough, really? It’s enough to make the solid no voters happy. That’s about all. At the end of the day, really undecided people will either not vote, or they’ll have to plump for one or the other. Knowing which one you’d be more disappointed to see lose could be what swings it.

James S

Couldn’t get the STV player working here and don’t have a TV by choice.

Overall on the two thirds I did see thanks to Keltik on ustream it looked like AD lost his rag for a moment after AS had used the bizarre aliens, pandas and driving quotes as build up to this:

‘Do you agree with Cameron that Scotland can be a successful independent state? Yes or No?’

AS was more in touch with the audience in style, but it was clear that most of the audience have not spent much time living and working abroad. I spent USD in Vienna and GBP in Japan, the issue under debate is when you convert it to your account asset or liability. They don’t teach this in schools, so you learn the function of currency is different from the name on it when you use it.

That issue needs to be clearer.

The best way to win the rat race, is to stop being a rat.

Anne Lawrie

Chance to sort it all out today with the “undecideds” – RIC mass canvass. We must all be ready to answer questions on CURRENCY!

Grouse Beater

Some of the self-doubts expressed tonight are unwarranted.

It reminds me of Cool Hand Luke. Newman’s character was expected to be everybody’s hero without them ever taking any risk or responsibility themselves to better their lot.

Either you believe Alec Salmond has made the strongest bid for self-determination or you don’t. He gave us the plebiscite we asked for.

Back him or hold your counsel!

Michael McCabe

Alex should have asked Flipper which house he was claiming for this month.

Barontorc

I struggle with the ‘pension here-after’ question caused by my piggy-bank confusion, that what we paid into a pot to get back out again, we would get, when it was our turn.

Now Darling tells me that I’m wrong to think that I should expect to get back from HM Treasury what I’ve chipped in for, for the last umpteen years.

He should be telling me how he proposes to make this good when we wander off in perfect determination to plough our own furrow.

He and his crowd have had my contributions, how does he intend to give it back to me? I ain’t askin’ I’m demandin’

David Stevenson

There were 435 people polled. After the debate, some of the Don’t Knows shifted to a decision. We gained 9, they gained 18. Among those who still hadn’t made up their minds, 3/4 thought Salmond won the debate, though obviously not by enough to push them into a decision.

That doesn’t look to me that Salmond won the fight for the Don’t Knows, but I would be happy to be persuaded otherwise.

Dcanmore

There is a lot wrong with the media in this country, it is wrong because we, the supporters of independence, are the enemy. We are at war and the first casualty of war is the truth.

The referendum debate held tonight, and subsequent debates held so far on television, have only taken place because the electorate at large began to question why we were not having televised debates on such an important subject. So what we got was something that was purposely delayed until an answer was found.

Downing Street was adamant that David Cameron was not going to debate Alex Salmond. That was delay number one. Secondly was the ramping up of negative anti-independence stories from all over the shop (Barosso, think tanks, treasury, astroturfing and so on and on). These had to come into the media before any debate with Alex Salmond took place. Thirdly was to find the required patsy and arm that person with right ammunition to face Salmond. Darling drew the short straw.

Next up was the format of the debate. Totally designed to put people off as a tactic. Nothing like a squabble to get people to turn over. Darling tried to hit the weak point (currency) over and over again to back foot Salmond with nothing else to offer, the rest of the pro-union arguments is old rope.

The media is of course compliant. The STV organised debate was odd and alienating. This can’t be put down to simply incompetence, it is planned and rehearsed. The NO audience was not a cross-section of Scotland, they were loudly partisan as if they came off the same bus.

The whole shebang was designed to generate headlines for the pro-union media to deliver an anti-independence message. Most of the columns to be read tomorrow would have been written beforehand with some quotes placed in later for good measure. If Darling had a total nightmare and shrank into a little sobbing ball for an hour then the media coverage tomorrow would simply not exist. The debate would not have been reported on.

It has to be understood that the media in Scotland is actively working against independence, they are effectively the press and communications department of Better Together. It is with that acceptance then YES people can then understand the enemy. We are against the rotten core of the British State, it exists in the media, your local council, Holyrood, Westminster and business. Collectively they are a massive monster, and this monster is only now beginning to use every single dirty trick and lie in the book to thwart a YES result.

Better Together is not a single anti-independence organism, it is part of a much much bigger construct. It is part of the enemy called the British State. What we probably don’t know is how much money has really been pumped into the anti-independence cause so far. I suspect it’s tens of millions and counting. These amounts will be buried and like all mafias, are good at burying money deep from prying eyes.

Just like we see our enemy in fractured terms, disperate organisations with different titles here and there, the funding is fractured too so it looks like ‘donations’ are coming and going from all these organisations. But as I said it is a collective and most of the funding will be coming directly from UK government. All the media have to do is report donations that go to Better Together and gives the illusion it’s the cosy celebrities and caring businesses that are funding NO Thanks. The human face of the British State.

More than ever, if Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and YES Scotland are to go on television debates, then they must be prepared to put the monster to the sword, straight through the heart. Not by getting caught up in microscopic detail of every issue forced upon them, but bringing forth the vision of an independent Scotland. Like the Rev said on his Twitter, AS acted as if he was at FMQ. The game must be raised, new tactics employed, be more clever and more importantly … speak to the people and engage with the voter.

The people of Scotland are waiting for true leadership from a statesman, that will deliver hope with big ideas and a path to a future that will make our lives better for everyone, not to get bogged down and suffocated by grey suit micro-management arguments. To get out of the swamp the debate must be lifted out of the swamp and only then will the country embrace radical change. Forget the media, they are the enemy within, to fight this dirty war we must go to the people directly it’s the only way.

FlimFlamMan

@ Dr JM Mackintosh

good post – that is what I am trying to get over – why is nobody pointing out the disaster for the rUK if there is no currency union.

Because it wouldn’t be a disaster? The disaster would happen if rUK does enter a currency union.

The eurozone nations which are still mired in depression level unemployment are the ones with large external deficits. Those deficits need financing, and without currency sovereignty – issuing their own currency – countries lose the ability to finance them. Their economies crash when economic troubles hit.

rUK, like the UK now, will run a large external deficit, and if it doesn’t have its own currency it will end up like Spain. Or worse, since it’s external deficit will be larger than Spain’s.

Doug Daniel

Number of times currency has come up as a subject with undecideds when out canvassing, talking to folk, etc: zero.

That’s the most depressing thing. No one is going to vote based on the currency. It’ll be an excuse for some who would vote No anyway, but most folk don’t care what money we use, as long as they have some!

STV were desperate to have a US-style presidential debate. NEWSFLASH: we’re not electing a president. It was far better when they fielded questions from the audience. Some were moronic, as you’d expect with a crowd that’s 40% No (and 40% Yes, since they can come out with some partisan pish as well), but it was far more enlightening than “WHAT’S YOUR CURRENCY PLAN B?” “DUNNO, BUT ADMIT SCOTLAND COULD BE A SUCCESSFUL COUNTRY.” “NO, PEOPLE MIGHT START BELIEVING IT.”

That debate has achieved one thing though. I’m going to get back out there after several weeks of inactivity.

G. Campbell

Salmond has to keep it simple for the next debate. None of the page 4 of the fiscal comission pish. Something like:

“Any country can use the pound. Scotland will use the pound. Rest of UK business will want Scotland to use the pound. That’s why there will be a currency union.”

Plan A and plan B in 4 sentences.

Cuilean

I watched with 9 YES folks and one undecided. We all thought Salmond won, hands down. Being obsessed with the Referendum, [who isn’t] I re-watched it, which reinforced my conviction that Salmond won. It’ll be hard for MSM to ‘highlight’ Flipper besting Salmond, as it just never happened. BTW, the audience, [as per Question Time’s audience] was absolutely chockers with middle-class Scots & middle-class English-Scots. That’s not an accurate or random electoral representation. I suspect all of these polls have canvassed the mainstream middle-class whilst whole strata of residents of Scotland remain untapped…. including the mother-lode of YES, which will bring a resounding YES vote 18 September 2014.

Capella

@ Dr JM Mackintosh 12:50 am
“that is what I am trying to get over – why is nobody pointing out the disaster for the rUK if there is no currency union.”
A chap in the audience raised this point to some cheers from his fellow YES supporters – towards the end of the debate. His question was aimed at AD but, naturally, went unanswered.
BTW if AS had come out all guns blazing he would be now roundly condemned as “smug” and “aggressive”. One BT plant in the audience actually did accuse him of being snide and aggressive, even though AS was mild as milk. (much to the annoyance of those who wanted a killer punch).

Molly

Someone said to me last night if we vote Yes, when we go to England they won’t like us !

Followed by it’s not our pound,it’s England’s

Followed by – ah dinnae like Alex Salmond

At that point I walked away laughing, what can you say ?

stuart

Not sure if anyone knows but here’s the full poll results. link to icmresearch.com

Cath

“It’ll be hard for MSM to ‘highlight’ Flipper besting Salmond, as it just never happened.”

Yup. The highlights on the news programmes I’ve seen afterwards have all looked very positive for Salmond and nowhere near as much for Darling.

I think Yes voters were just expecting a bit too much from one guy and one debate.

Adrian B

Currency is NOT an issue – The only ones talking about it are BT and the media down south.

Gaining Labour support from those yet to make up their mind IS a priority right now.

Jamie Shepherd

Also note that the survey respondents were 185 male to 250 female. It is clear from previous surveys that support for no is much stronger among women, so this would even out the yes/no figures quite a bit if those surveyed had been 50/50 M/F.

Capella

Another thing about the currency stance of AS – it’s a negotiating position. You go into a negotiation with your “ask” i.e the currency union. Robin MacAlpine describes the situation on his blog.
“A well-managed negotiation involves each negotiating side having an ‘ask’, a ‘minimum’, an ‘offer’ and a ‘sanction’. A rule book and some facts and figures are handy but not essential. An ask is the maximum version of what you want and a minimum is the least you will accept. An offer is just a ‘carrot’, something nice you give the other side if you get what you want. A sanction is just a ‘stick’, something you do if you don’t get what you want, some sort of real or implied threat of a bad outcome for the other partner.”
link to cmonscotland.org

G. Campbell

Best bet for the next debate would be for one of the Business for Scotland bods to go in wearing a prosthetic Salmond suit. A bit of voice training and no one would know the difference.

I’m seriously thinking about starting a fundraiser.

Adrian B

@Cath – you should see the front page of the papers – they are looking rather predictable. The thing is tonight has reminded me of being 4 weeks out from the SNP getting elected at the last elections.

link to twitter.com

(picture of some of the front pages of todays papers)

CameronB Brodie

Re. the repeated questioning of which currency Scotland will use. I can’t be bothered counting the number of times the FM referred to the work carried out by the Fiscal Commission Working Group. Is it reasonable to expect the FM to comment in detail on these option, during the debate? Was the studio not full of journalists? Do they not have functioning ears? The FM was correct to state his preferred option. Otherwise he could be accused of not looking out for Scotland’s best interests.

Dr Ew

What Alex could have said about currency:
“We will use the pound – that’s Plan A and Plan B. The currency union will be negotiated after the political posturing has faded away, because the rUK will not want to lose Scotland’s huge oil revenues in its valuation, exchanges and balance of payments. Regardless of the scaremongering by Westminster, Scotland will choose our currency as is our right, and ensure our trade, your savings and your pensions remain with a stable pound.”

Dr Ew

Besides being stronger and clearer on the currency issue, Eck just needs to be himself. ALl this nicey stuff is all very well but the stakes are high and we want to see a bit of grit. He’s a brilliant debater – so long as he’s not thinking about all that spin and presentation gloss.

It’s gloves aff time.

bookie from hell

scottish pound/tracking sterling plan B

#simples

Taranaich

I’ve accumulated my thoughts into my post:

link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com

In short: when I saw how many people on my Twitter/Facebook/etc feed ERUPT with what Alex Salmond could have said, I knew what was happening – Alex Salmond is giving the power to us. If he did the obvious, then it would be Alex Salmond destroying Darling. But seeing dozens of people doing it for him on social media, knowing that there are hundreds of thousands of Yes voters doing the same, I realised that the First Minister was essentially channeling that power to us.

Because as is obvious, it is the people who will make this. And when the people are saying we can use the pound for reasons that can’t be directly traced back to Alex Salmond via a quote, isn’t that MASSIVELY more powerful than repeating soundbytes about pandas and tories?

The debate, ironically enough, isn’t important. What we say tomorrow is, when the undecided come into Yes shops and ask what that pound business was all about, when triumphant No types crow about the media crowning Darling the winner despite the stats showing the complete opposite, when Yes folk may feel demoralised that the First Minister didn’t destroy Darling.

We have to change the story.

Alan Ritchie

You are mis-reading the poll, those percentages are meaningless, and shouldn’t have been printed.

“What those numbers show is that – astoundingly – people who were Yes voters before the debate thought Salmond won, and those who were No voters before the debate thought Darling won, both by enormous margins.” is backwards. It shows that voters who thought that Salmond won were yes voters before the debate, which is slightly different.

190 people thought that Alex Salmond won the debate. Of those 190, the number of yes voters changed from 138 to 152, the number of no voters fell from 21 to 15, and undecided went from 31 to 23.

242 thought that Alastair Darling won, with 18 moving from DK to No, and a Yes voter disappearing, either a rounding issue with the weighting, or he also moved to no which would tie up with the weighted base figures.

So I think the important number is the weighted base – 26 previously undecided voters split evenly between Yes and No. (Contrast to the unweighted numbers 27 DK split 9 Yes and 18 No, so Alex gained undersampled younger voters while Alastair gained older ones)

With No polling at 50%, Yes will need to win over all the remaining DKs, so it doesnt matter what percentage of the DKs thought Salmond won. While it looks like a score draw, it is actually a goalless draw away from home for Yes. Only a win in the second leg will do.

Dal Riata

@Dcanmore @1.18am

Terrific post there and oh, so true! Well said.

Barontorc

Tonight there were no negatives – that’ll do for now – let the U/D voters take from that what they will.

aldo_macb

That snap poll by ICM shows Yes on 46% which is up 3% on the previous ICM poll last month. Looks like we are heading to 50 50 very soon.

[…] there will be much discussion of everything said, analysis, cross-examination, and whatnot. Already the Reverend, Paul Kavanagh and James Kelly have their thoughts up, and to be frank, I don’t think […]

Faltdubh

The poll is encourgaing that we are up 3/4% after the debate. Whilst I agree that the media is bias. Tonight was a level platform, whilst Poncy may have had some poor programs/ediotrials ”Not one Yes voter in Dundee”etc.

Tonight – there was no bias for 2hrs during the debate. Let’s be honest folks, Salmond was poor tonight! The currency is the elephant in the room – no one is expecting explinations, but even if the audience member who wrote to Salmond etc (probably a No anyways) asks him for A,B,C,D – to continue repeating that we’ll use the pound will not win over the undecided/soft no vote.

What they want is – a clear response about how their ideal position is a currency union (explain the reasons why the UK will come the 19th Sept, the UK Gov will be signing up to one) then say thoroughly and precise that if they continue to risk their own prospects – run through the other options.

That way the issue is gone! Darling or whatever BT rep can pick away it, but we can immediately put the shoe on the other foot by asking if they’ll support a SNP/Yes Scotland team in negoiatians.
By saying it’s in agreement with The Fiscal Commision (Who? That’s who most undecided voters will be asking are) or it’s on page 203 or whatever will not work.

Although, it’s not the end by all means. We’ve still got 42 days, but we need to work our arse off. Tonight I see as a lost opportunity, no matter how we paint up the polls.

People are undecided because they want to vote YES!

Let’s get out there and work our arses off to get that vote.

CapnAndy.

As I’m offshore and couldn’t watch the debate I’m reading folks comments with interest. I don’t doubt that AS could wipe the floor with Darling even on a bad day, but Dave McEwan Hill makes the point.
‘I suspect in a few days most will remember Darling shouting and Salmond being nice,friendly and less confrontational.’
You will find that was the tactic from the start. Had AS wiped the floor with Darling, he may well have lost votes. Darling did the finger waving shouty man bit in contrast to AS’s calm and polite performance. Darling loses, badly.

CapnAndy.

I forgot to ask. Did anyone check on Darling’s blink rate?

thoughtsofascot

With the currency issue, the way its being handled is all wrong. Its being tackled from the entirely wrong end when dealing with the chumps in the No camp.

We say “Its beneficial for Scotland.” They say “Its not beneficial for the UK.” That is exactly what happened tonight. We played right into their hands.

No, we have to think outside the box here and point out the direct benefactor is the rUK, because it will stop the pound from going into freefall and nuking their economy. We only benefit indirectly through trade. It’s easier to trade with an economically stable partner, than one that’s in turmoil – Just ask Greece’s trade partners.

There. In one fell swoop, the Bitter Together line of argument is nullified and it implies that taking any other option with regards to currency is immoral and tantamount to saying “Let em all burn!”

The Bitters can’t assault it from either side. the only line of attack they can take is to go after the underlying premise that ripping close to 10% out of the GDP of a nation will rattle investors and sink the currency, but history is littered with examples of currencies that sank whenever the parent nation took a serious economic blow.

ian

If the SNP start talking about plan B The No side will beat them with the stick that says “Scotland now wants to force transaction fees on it’s own people as well as rUK

Alan McHarg

How many times have you walked away from a conversation, debate or argument an thought to yourself “I wish I’d said this or that” or training/working with someone, using jargon, telling them the end product whilst all the time assuming they understand what your saying and how to get to and achieve the end product. It is easy to assume, when you live and breath your business, that everybody likewise understands your business. We all make assumptions and mistakes.

I believe those still undecided know and here what AS’s end product is, but are unsure of the process. They need to be told in simple language/instructions how they are going to get to that end product i.e. how it is going to be paid for. They need to see and hear a viable process in order to achieve the end product. The trouble is the STV debates don’t offer the time nor maybe the opportunity to go into it in great detail and is therefore not the ideal platform to enlighten the undecided as the crux of the matter often gets lost and replaced with easier and quicker sound bites (to much frustration).

You could argue that the format is by design and more suited to the union’s scaremongering and lack of a vision for Scotland than the Yes campaign having to explain it’s huge vision for an independent Scotland.

bigGpolmont

I thought that AS was not as bad as some people are trying to make out.Yeah we all wanted to see him kick ADs arse but at the end of the day what good would that have done? Te press would be full of Salmond is smug, bullish, arrogant and a political bully.He held the line on CU. he did say that there were other options in the white paper but to have come out with anything else would have laid the whole campaign open to attack with only six weeks to go.Okay he was not at his best but he did come out from behind the rostrum often unlike Darling who was clearly rattled at some of the jibes Salmond was relaxed and confident AND that is what I think made the difference to the undecided voters Even when all this was going on more than 200 people
attended a yes meeting for undecideds in Grangemouth those of the undecideds who have not yet committed to a definite yes have all moved closer to yes. So all in all a good night Onward folks onward!

thedogphilosopher

Couple of things … post-debate caught glimpse of Lesley Riddoch on newsnight and she emphasised how the grassroots (the real) campaign is off radar and being ignored by mainstream media and how that’s typical of social revolutions, they rise from the ground up …

And

One word keeps coming to mind: complacency.

Iain Gray's Subway Lament

Currency is a low priority issue. After months and months of No banging on fruitlessly about it the polls are still narrowing. The only danger is being stupid enough to let the unionists set the terms of the debate and keep endlessly naval gazing about the one issue the Britnats desperately want to put at the forefront of the campaign.

The unionist press and pundits say Yes need to have an answer every single time currency gets reheated and they will keep doing so all the way till the 19th.

Because it doesn’t matter what Salmond says about currency since No and the unionist friendly press self-evidently aren’t interested in the slightest in his answers. They aren’t whining because Salmond isn’t giving answers, they are whining because they don’t like the answers. NOTHING will convince them to admit before the 19th “Fine! you caught us out, we were bluffing all the time”, so get used to it. It’s about trust not economics or central banks.

Salmond also didn’t leap across the podium and demand Darling explain his expenses troughing and paid speeches for companies trying to privatise the NHS. So f***ing what? Darling was a shrieking, blinking, almost demented ball of anger and negativity. Which is precisely why on the only stat that mattered Salmond BEAT Darling and won over more undecideds.

For those with a short memory we’ve been here before and the only reason we are having this historic and momentous referendum AT ALL is that Salmond and the SNPs strategy to be statsemanlike and project competence resulted in the 2007 win and then the 2011 landslide win against a labour party almost as negative as Darling was last night.

Does the lack of fireworks please some of those already convinced to vote Yes? Obviously not. Nor did it in 2007 and 2011. Yet however many zingers and rebuttals we might have made in his place those of us who worked tirelessly in 2007 and 2011 also know perfectly well that Salmond and the SNP are light-years ahead of the tory funded labour machine. we also know that the scottish public REALLY don’t give a sh*t about a press they mistrust almost as much as westminster. Nor do the polls dictate their actions. That isn’t theory, it’s what’s already happened TWICE.

Then you add in the the missing voters. Those who the pollsters can never reach and who the No campaign aren’t even trying to. Those at the bottom who have almost nothing left to lose and who don’t bother to vote at any other time. Yes can and will reach them on the doorsteps and in the streets in these final vital weeks of this campaign. The blind panic from the Britnats when we do reach them, and the No campaign begin to realise we are reaching them, will be a thing to behold.

Telling the low paid, the unemployed, those struggling on a pension or living from day to day with the help of foodbanks to be happy with more of the same just won’t cut it. No can say bye bye to those voters right now and they are very far from an insignificant number when we get out the vote.

Tattie-bogle

AD stated that there will be negotiations on pensions but heehaw on the £.
I can’t remember at which point he said it don’t think i can watch it again dreadful stuff STV

Seasick Dave

I travel many places with my offshore career and use Switch wherever I go.

I hardly use cash and don’t think about what currency I am using or not using.

Most of the scaremongering about currency is just a distraction and best ignored.

steviecosmic

Just saw BBC world news here with a Scots pundit (never got his name) saying Darling wiped the floor with Salmond and that the snap poll after the debate showed this, ably backed up by the BBC anchor.

Some breathtaking lies about guaranteed devo max in there too after a No vote.

Same old shit, different day.

lochside

Dcanmore, excellent piece. We are at war with the multi-headed monster of the British State which masks its well co-ordinated campaign behind the ‘grass root’ front organisations such as ‘No Borders’ etc. and the pimps of the msm.

I am tired of spin, and AS showed that when he listens and acts on spin doctors’ advice he looks vulnerable. Last night, when he momentarily took the gloves off, it worked.

However, unlike some, my experience at the doors, is of Dks fear of CU not happening because of what it means to their income. This is not a trivial matter. Last night AS kept repeating ‘Scotland’s best interests’ when what he should have been saying ‘RUK’s best interests’. Someone in the crowd highlighted the 10% loss of the Uk if Scotland’s share of the B.of.E. is removed and the Oil fields to boot. This should have been AS’s tack.

But this format is nothing but a set-up to allow Ponse and all the over-paid nonentities to further their career. It does the ‘Yes’ campaign no favours. Me?, I’d rather see an all out attack on Darling’s personal reputation and the corruption of Westminster with a detailed list of their lies and illegal wars, with an impassioned appeal to crush its rule over us forever. But I’m no politician, so what do I know?

Once last thing…why don’t Patrick Harvie and Pat Kane take a running fuck to themselves, and take their self-serving careers somewhere else than giving weasel words of succour the No crowd?

Wp

All this was, was a last gasp effort by the media and STV to try and stem the flow of Yes momentum of the past weeks. I, like many, thought I would see the Alex Salmond we all know laughing at his opponent and winning his arguments easily. That he used a more relaxed approach and allowed Darling to get angry was obviously his plan. This is now seized on by the no camp as a defeat, which is nonsense. No matter how it went last night the media would have picked holes in Alex Salmond because that’s what they do. The facts are, Darling gave this his best shot yet the undecideds still moved mostly to Yes. I’m sure when we see Alex Salmond on TV nearing the big day he won’t be holding back. The polls are almost level. What’s to be negative about ?

bjsalba

I didn’t see the “debate” but then I have been so turned off by the MSM (both TV and newspapers)that I have avoided them both for decades as much as I can.

I fully expected them to behave badly as serving the public interest or providing any decent coverage of anything is well beyond their comprehension and capabilities.

In Roman times it was bread and circuses, now it is cheap booze and TV “events”.

thoughtsofascot

@Lochside
My thoughts exactly!
I was dumbfounded at that. He was given the stake to skewer the currency argument once and for all, yet he dropped it. It was like watching a re-run of Brazil V Scotland 1998. I was thinking “This is it, the most obnoxiously annoying, yet most consistently debunked argument of the no camp is going to get buried like it should have been long ago.” And then nothing ever came of it. The line of argument was allowed to go back onto the bitter together rails of “It’s in Scotland’s interests but not the UK’s” and it ended up feeling like that horrible own goal

Grouse Beater

Did we really expect the British establishment and its servants to admit Darling failed miserably to address the democractic reasons for self-government?

Are we surprised they claim an easy victory where none exits? Are we so foolish that we rely on appointed heroes to win the battle single-handedly?

What changed that has us cry, ‘Wur goin’ hame – we didnae think it wuz a real battle’?

Stand your ground and prepare for the next attack.

Ken500

It’s irrelevant. It was just an opportunity for STV shareholders to make money.

It will be forgotten about in a week.

Voters are not voting for Alistair Darling or Alex Salmond. There are voting for Democracy. They are voting for the right to take responsibility to run their own country.

Some people would never vote for Alistair Darling and always vote for Alex Salmond. Alex Salmond approval rating are far higher than Alastair Darling, but that is not the issue. The majority of people recognise the issue.

Vote YES

You and My Comb

I didn’t see it all but I thought Salmond got some big stealth hits in there.

Darling avoiding confirming that Scotland could be a successful country was an interesting issue that could be played quite well in conversation but I think that Darling couldn’t get by the fact that Scotland has subsidised the UK for, at least, the past 33 years is really important. I also thought that Darling conceded (as Carmichael did in helensburgh) that the EU was a certainty (like Carmichael, he tried to open up a new battlefront on conditions of joining but nobody seemed bothered)

notWillieRennie

Audience picked by Ipsos MORI explains everything (even back to the start of the campaign!). Is it just me, or do some No voters seem professionally prepped with their questions. BBC/ITV news were obviously preset with stories about how AD won it (ITV won the most vicious prize this time).
Don’t think AS was playing to us, he was playing to the undecideds and perhaps Labour No/Undecided voters.

Ken500

The currency issue is irrelevant. Currency is just a form of exchange.

What matters is if the books are balanced. Scotland has balanced the Books for ever but has been dragged down by Westminster malicious incompetency, secrecy and lack of proper democracy. The only way for people to achieve fairness and democracy is to vote YES and vote for the SNP. The SNP publishes the Accounts is committed to open government. Official Scottish Gov website Search GERS. Westminster does not. Westminster gov administration condones secrecy and lies.

The SNP is funded by it’s members. Ordinary people concerned about their community. Crowd funded if you like. This gives Alex and Co the opportunity to do the right thing without
consideration for vested interests, secrecy and lies. Vote YES

Marco McGinty

In relation to AD’s claim that Andy Burnham was joking, and Burnham’s own follow-up statement to confirm that view, the quote used in the Telegraph reads as;

“I would feel really genuinely sad if Scotland votes for independence, not just for our own self-interest and in the extra difficulty we would face getting a Labour government in England but I also don’t want to drive up the M6 and get my passport out or have to drive on the right when I want to drive on the left.”

Perhaps he was misquoted, but it doesn’t appear to be a joke, suggesting that Burnham and Darling are both liars.

Al Ghaf

I remember only a few years back the line, “Ordinary hard working Scots are not interested in the SNP obsession with the constitution. They want to to know about jobs, health and education, the things that matter…..”

Or variations of the above being spouted ad nauseum by every unionist that got within gurning distance of a microphone ..

Now today, we have food banks, zero hour contracts, privatisation of the NHS in England and the knock on effect in Scotland. And we are told all the ordinary hard working Scots want to know is what is the currency plan B? Seriously?

Ken500

No wonder Alex Salmond gets fed up sometimes. Constantly attacked berated for telling the true by ignoramuses. How many times do they have to be given the information? Boring.

PRJ

This debate centralise Salmond as the Yes campaign. Exactly what the No campaign wanted.
Did Salmond once mention the Yes Scotland or any other Yes campaign group?
This was a political broadcast SNP against NO!

SNP policies which as far as I’m concerned is not what this campaign is about.

Ken500

Come on folks.

How many people would vote for Alistair? How many people would vote for Alex?

That is not the issue. The issue is far more important. What kind of community and country do they want to live in.

Vote YES

Nation Libre

The bookies were giving odds on a winner, who are they paying out on?

Socrates MacSporran

I thought the format was bad. The questions from the audience section was a mess, which played into Darling’s hands.

I also thought Alex Salmond too-often, played the man rather than the ball.

Yes, we know Darling is a nasty, self-serving piece of work. It was particularly telling that he could not, would not, agree that Scotland can and will flourish as an independent nation. But, a bit more about a better Scotland and a bit less about the mess Darling and his mates have got the UK into might convince a few more Don’t Knows.

gfaetheblock

Let’s not too excited, the percentages quoted are based on a sample of less than 50, therefore the margin for error must be so big to make this meaningless.

heedtracker

@ gfaetheblock, its how are chums in the media are using the poll as a No triumph thats the point. Wake up and smell the coffee, Scotland is voting Yes.

Lochside

Ken 500: ‘The currency issue is irrelevant’…well it may be to you mate, but as I’ve stated, it matters to people on the doors I’ve canvassed.

They’re the type that don’t read White Papers, but watch shite like last night’s charade and think Darling is ‘hard hitting’.

AS had the opportunity to bury stone dead, in plain terms, the CU fox. He didn’t. He fell back on sound bites. That’s why the ‘NO’ dupes in the crowd were allowed to barrack him.

When he got stuck in on Food Banks and Poverty, they shut up. If you attack Darling and his accolytes with plain facts, not ‘Page 4 blah, blah, blah..and Scotland’s Interests’ knee jerk jive,then you’ll convince DKs.

Anorak Yesses like you and I are not relevant to this, we know the truth, the DKs don’t and they need it spelled out for them.

cal

What kind of country would stand by and watch its neighbour struggle financially as it tries to set itself up as an independent state and make its own way in the world while it also suffers financially because it refuses a currency union with one of its closest friends and allies? A spiteful and vindictive one perhaps. What kind of relationship can we possibly look forward to if the union is to continue?

If Mr Burnam was joking about driving on the right were BT also joking about the lack of access to blood and organ donations, the crazy 2.7 billion set up costs, the merging of our two NHSs? The privatisation of the English NHS-is that a joke too? If it’s all just a bit of fun, if the refusal to discuss a currency union a joke too? Yes . It’s a special kind of joke known as a “bluff”.

Where was the vision from Mr Darling? The plan to get us from where we are now to where we need to be? Where was the message for all the disaffected, those who never vote, the missing million? No vision, no plan, no hope, no future Mr Darling.

heedtracker

link to newsnetscotland.com

Keeping it real Scotland. People want change. Why should the south of England take all Scotland’s resources, then give us the hand outs and bits of government they decide we need?

Edit 07:00: There was more good news for the Yes campaign when a poll cunducted by the Guardian newspaper showed that amongst who were undecided before the debate, Salmond won by 55 to 45. The margin increased significantly when those who remained undecided after were asked – they gave it to the First Minister by a whopping 74 to 26.

Despite this, speaking on BBC Radio Scotland at 06:40 this morning, political correspondent David Porter when speaking specifically about undecideds, told listeners that the Guardian poll had made Darling the winner. It was true that amongst all of those who took part in the poll, the Better Together head had emerged victor, but the undecideds very definitely did not give the debate to Darling.

Peter Sneddon

So much for Ipsos-Mori’s “specially invited” Audience of Labour party trolls and halfwits, If that lot where typical of Scottish people I would be out of here like a shot,but they’re not! The harassment of the first minister of Scotland (allowed by Ponsonby and the wee man shouting in his ear) was imho organised thuggery. I wonder just how many were selected due to low IQ ratings? Then add insult to injury by having that semi sentient mug from Forth radio talking the same shite he always does while reasoned intelligent voices such as Ian Macwhirter where conveniently sidelined until the end. I just feel numb we have so much ignorance in our society.

Ken500

It was always going to be boring

Alex can’t say, ‘you were the stupid dumb F who helped crash the banks, supported illegal wars to make yourself a tax evaded fortune and caused people worldwide to be starving and dying.

Alistair can’t say, ‘”I am so jealous of you because you are honest, successful, caring, popular and you can count, that I got to call you a Nazi and a lot of other names beside. ‘a real Braveheart’.”

heedtracker

Post debate BBC newsnight London meant to have great Alan Little reportage but screwed it up and cut to excruciating UKOK vote NO BBC propaganda desperately trying to arm twist teenage Scots into vote no.

All they did via a shameless Kirsty Wark, was make themselves look cheap and nasty and when they did get Alan Little on, he knew it too.

Maybe some of these BBC chancers do have some shame.

Ken500

Round the doors the currency issue. ‘I havenae got a bean to mi name’ but Aye I’m worried about the currency issue. Most people in Britain haven’t got a spare £100. Most people in Britain have just got debt, expect for 10% of the population, who are worried about the currency issue. How they can get their hands on even more of it?

Helena Brown

Well I did not watch it as I knew I would be doing damage to the Television. First thing on the Radio this morning, and I put that off. Got a quick glimpse of the ticker tape on Sky and ignored it, came straight here for the truth. It can be palatable or not but spin is just out of hand in the MSM. The Guardian, why the bleeding Guardian, who on the earth of Scotland reads the Guardian. I do hope all the Labourites in England realise that their precious Guardian is going to be used against them just as soon as they put the Scottish Question to bed.

Roger
David Smith

The fact that AS came out from behind his lectern to respond to questions while AD used his as a barrier sent a signal of its own in my opinion.

Muscleguy

@AdrianB

One thing Salmond not only let slide but adopted himself was Darling’s saying we would have to apply to ‘re-enter’ Europe. This was wrong, we will not have to re-enter as we will not be outside. The continuance of our membership is what will be negotiated with Europe between Sept 18 and March 2016.

It’s an important point and Alex chose not only not to pursue it but adopted the word from Darling which conceded the point unargued.

paul

A look at Darling’s life om Wikipedia tells you all you need to know about this chancer not only is he a crook who flipped his home four times he was also responsible for the department that lost public records valued in the millions if the information was to have been sold on. Scotland needs no lessons from this Tory baffoon. He is the nephew of a Tory MP and attended a fee paying school. His tryst with socialism was the usual teenage rebellion against his upbringing but now as a adult he is fully at home with the Tories that he thinks should lord over us. I detest Torie and everything that they stand for but, Darling’s type makes me vomit.

Ken500

How many times do YES have to say it. Scotland can use the pound, Scotland can use the pound, Scotland can use the pound. After a YES vote Scotland can use the pound. In the event of a YES vote Scotland can and will use the pound. In the event of a YES vote Scotland can and will use the Pound.

They might not use it for ever, but when Scotland votes YES, the currency of the country will be the Pound because it would take two years at least to change.

If people vote YES, the currency in Scotland will be the pound.

Robert Peffers

Oh! For Heavens sake folks – get a grip! I’m nothing if not clear that the real story of last nights so called debate is that it proved Darling is a total numptie.

His whole plan of attack, if he ever had one, was to repeat the same mantra like one of those dolls with the blinky eyes that say the same things when you pull the wee string hanging out the back. Yet this oft repeated mantra seems to have fooled so many YESSERS and is thus a bit of a worry for the YES campaign. Darling kept parroting the same quite incorrect and superfluous question like some demented long Dead Parrot with a broken recorder stuffed up its jaxie.
“What is Plan B”.
“What is Plan B”.
“What is Plan B”.

This is not a question that has any answers, for the real sensible question has been asked and answered too many times to count. The currency question only requires a simple answer and that question is, ”What currency will an Independent Scotland Use”? . The simple answer has always been an unequivocal,The Pound Sterling. So why does this fool, who leads Better Together, keep asking the same idiotic question?

The question he keeps asking, “What is Plan B”, is not, in any way, one for the YES campaign to answer for the answer given to the real question has usually always finished with the qualification, ”preferably in a Currency Union” and THAT, is a question that requires negotiations and is one for a post independence ENGLISH parliament to answer. The YES campaign has always insisted it is their first preference. So why does Darling keep harping on about Plan B when he has been told that an independent Scotland will be using Sterling with or without a currency union?

It cannot even fall to Darling to answer the question of a currency union unless, by some unlikely chance, London Labour were to win the next – post independence – election and be stupid enough to appoint the failed Chancellor who cost then the governance of the UK into the same office.

davidb

On transaction fees. There is a transaction fee in all banking transactions. The free banking provided for many retail customers hides the cost, but it is there.

The transaction fees thing is not really important in the lives of most people. Its a cost on business but it is not as huge a cost for the smaller businesses as fuel/ carriage charges. Most Scots businesses are small.

I buy a lot from the Euro zone. There is a charge for sending & converting money, but we just do bigger transactions. The floating currency rates – which can be hedged – can have dramatic effects, but if say a Free Scot was buying in a currency which shadowed Sterling the cost of the transaction would be known by all parties. So wheres the problem?

A bigger transaction cost for me personally is having to buy from English “UK agents” who do little for their rent seeking position beyond adding a margin. I would wonder how much of the trade England does into Scotland would find itself lost to them as Scots buy from the manufacturers in Italy or Germany which being a separate Nation they will find easier to do.

Heather McLean

“Indy_Scot says:
Its funny I was just thinking that, maybe the debate did not appeal to the people in the know, because they are in the know. Maybe it was meant for the people not in the know.”

Exactly my thoughts! I’ve heard Alastair Darling go on about the currency more times than I’ve had hot dinners – and the same old argument debunked time after time but I’m immersed in this campaign and have been part of it from the get go!

However, a lot of people are just beginning to tune into it now and were watching last night for the first time – Alastair Darling trying , blustering and failing to deny actual quotations made by himself that the currency union is the best option for all concerned just last year will surely have alerted the undecideds watching that the man is an evasive liar!

Generation Yes had a bingo card made up for the number of times Darling would use phrases such as ” better and stronger together” ” irreversible decision” ” foreign” ” pooling and sharing risks and rewards” etc – I wish I’d printed it out – I’d have had a full house and at least it would have helped to relieve the boredom of listening to him!

I’ve scrolled right to the bottom to comment so forgive me if anyone else has already asked – did anyone else notice how Alex Salmond frequently came out from behind the lectern to speak directly to the audience and viewers at home – while Alastair Darling stayed behind his and directed his gaze and comments to either alex or Bernard Ponsonby?

I notice too that the newspapers this morning are declaring ” first blood” to Darling – only to be expected from the biased MSM I suppose!

Nigel

I did not watch the debate – out leafleting! I had a feeling that the MSM would spin it as a win for AD, no matter what. The debate was a media distraction, a side show and nothing more. Canvassing and leafleting is much more valuable. It remains with us Yessers to get out there with our leaflets and canvass sheets and keep talking face to face. Forget the media stuff…

Cal

If anyone has not seen this report by Prof Leslie Young on the Treasury’s reasons for refusing a currency union they should read it now. It comprehensively rubbishes the Westminster government’s reasons. “There may be good reasons for the UK to reject a currency union with an independent Scotland, but none can be found in the Treasury letter. Yet, that letter is the key justification for the stance of the UK Government”

I’m not sure how to format links which start with http so perhaps someone could do it properly for me?

Http(colon)(forward slash)(forward slash)scotlandseptember18.com(forward slash)wp-content(forward slash)uploads9forward slash)2014(forward slash)03(forward slash)FinalScotlandCurrencyA1The-Hunter-Foundation(dot)docx

Robert Louis

Nigel,

Wholly agree. The debate is just a distraction, which will be spun to suit the media viewpoint. The headlines could have been written three weeks ago.

The momentum in the polls is with the YES side, and NO are steadily falling in support. It is on the ground we will win this – something the media and pollsters have so far failed to understand.

I think Alex Salmond was careful in what he said, as he was appealing to soft No’s and ‘don’t knows’, rather than dedicated Yes people as we find on here. The currency question is a trap, desigend to distract, and Salmond did not walk right into it. Smart.

Let’s stop all this self defeatism, and criticism, as the main stream media will happily do it for us. We have the momentum, so let’s not fall into the trap of tangling ourselves up in whatiffery.

Robert Louis

What currency will iScotland use? Pound Sterling.

Bugger (the Panda)

Cal

Just publish the link from www. onwards, leaving asid eth http and slashes nits. The blog software adds it is automatically which is R Stu gets pissed off with people who leave all that stuff in. He has to go in manually and rewrite.

Just the link to xyzab,.com

biggpolmont

Wee douglas Bendy wendys wee brother has just stated on GMS
that it was obvious that alex wanted to tie Scotlands Economy to an English! pound in the same way as Panama had tied theirs to the US dollar E

Bugger (the Panda)

see the http bit was added automatically to that dummy address.

bunter

Last night was the first time that while discussing a C.U. that Salmond has not hit back with oh well, no assets no debt thing, as he always says that we have a right to a share of the BOE and sterling. Don’t know if that’s significant.

Is it not about time that Stiglitz and Mirrlees stood up and defended their recommendation of a C.U. as its their findings and reputation that are being rubbished. Just sayin.

Oh and another thing lol. Why did Salmond not skewer Darling on the extra powers thing. Darling was on the ropes but it was not pressed home.

Lindsey Smith

Well I flat out told Claire Phipps, who blogs for Guardian, that their claim was a lie. She was offended. The request to retweet if you support AD was conspicuously never moving off 40 something but the retweets to support FM were combing all the time. MSM is never going to support a YES victory.

Another Union Dividend

John Curtiss still going on about economic problems “Post Oil Scotland” on Radio Scotland this morning.

FFS He,I and most of the listeners will probably be long dead in 50 years time.

Mind you Alex Salmond needs to find a simpler narrative on Plan B nonsense such as “After a YES vote what currency arrangement do the Labour and Tory parties in Scotland think is best for an independent Scotland.

Macart

Yeah, the headlines for this were written days ago.

FM looked a bit off form and lacking his usual passion for a fight, but otherwise didn’t break. Couple of tactical screw ups which also was unlike him and I think we saw too much of the statesman and not enough of the debater. Mr Darling however simply couldn’t help himself. When under pressure and he was on several occasions, simply revert to shouty finger wagging and wild claims. 🙂

heedtracker

Why all the negativity? Its what Scotland needs, a First Minister not a knock about boxer.

Darling looked and acted like a clown and Salmond let him get him on with it.

Millions of Scottish people have never even heard of the rancid Guardianistas but they get up and go to work for peanuts today while the tax dodging rich try to projectfear them into saving the union of the rich.

Change is coming, Alex Salmond did a fine job and thats all we needed.

edward robinson

I sincerely hope that AS knows what game plan he is playing over the next few weeks. I love the man AS HE IS and dont wish a watered down Salmon who becomes less confident in his own skin.

We all know we are NOT too poor, nor too small , but unfortunately the majority of Scots might just be a tad too stupid see through the smoke and mirrors and arrive at a YES vote.

Robert Bryce

Doug Daniel, Adrian,
Thank you. I’m glad others can see what I see too. BT are on the wrong track with this but hey, let them fill their boots!

Footsoldier

Undecideds want to know about the currency pure and simple. If this is not answered to their satisfaction and a credible alternative offered, they will vote No. The problem is any alternative plan will be slaughtered by the opposition. A bit of a Catch 22 situation but an answer has to be found.

I agree with earlier comments that introducing aliens and driving on the right was a stupid thing to do. Perhaps AS and others are too immersed in the political bubble, when campaigners are crying out and want to hear BT being attacked on NHS etc.

Nana Smith
Ken500

Scotland has more assets and resources than Panama

The US has more resources than Panama

Scotland pro rata has more assets and resources than the rest of the UK.

Ie England claimed to have won the Commowealth Games. pro rata Scotland, NI, Wales were more successful.

The US and Panama are not relevant comparisons. The rest of the UK is not like the US (less assets and resources) and Scotland is not like Panama (more assets and resources) The US pro rata has more National debt than the UK ( but more assets?)

chalks

Sorry folks, Salmond was poor, but I am a man and last nights performance wasn’t for the men, it was for the women, where his numbers have jumped up 8%…..if we convince women in a majority, we’ve won the referendum.

A few undecideds will now vote no, but there is still time to convince them otherwise.

I think these people were probably going to vote No anyway, I was disappointed with Salmond and his line of questioning, I think it would have worked had it been quicker.

We are operating inside a bubble and I was staggered by the poll before the debate, 42% telephone poll….commonwealth games has clearly had an effect on the shy yes factor.

P.s. the media isn’t actually that bad today, the sun headline is interesting…..

Rabrats

It was Indy Debate for Dummies, expected as much with Darling at the helm for the Tories. Cammy might fancy his chances now though, and try take it to a level 1 debate.

heedtracker

Prof Curtice is just one more wealthy UKOK conman. I woke up to BBC world service rdaio news online and the BBC shyster in same Embro cafe where Rowling wrote Harry freakin Plop Plop interviewed actual academic poll researchers going around Scotland.

An American researcher had been across the whole Scotland and the Highlands and even he had found massive Yes majority and then they cut him off too.

People know they are being conned by the biggest fraud of their lives but none of its even coming close to making them want to be ruled and taxed by our friends in the south.

Grouse Beater

Alastair Darling trying, blustering and failing to deny actual quotations made by himself that the currency union is the best option for all concerned just last year will surely have alerted the undecideds watching that the man is an evasive liar!

Worth repeating.

Famous15

Of course Darling stated last year that A currency Union was reasonable.When he was put in the frame to “lead” Better Together he flipped and made it a condition of accepting that the Tories get in bed with Labour and say a big no to Currency Union. I wish that email could be leaked.

He ain’t called flipper for only one reason!

Nana Smith
Ken500

Any alternative plan will be put to the voters in Scotland and they can decide, after there is a YES vote. It will be up to the voters to decide, if there is a need for change.

Any attempt by Westminster to stop Scotland using the Pound will damage the rest of Britain’s economy. Cut off their nose to spite their face. People in the rest of Britain will not vote for that.

Ken500

Some Academics in Scotland are getting £Million of public money from Union supporters, without declaring an interest. This can affect their professional judgement.

Graham

The problem, and why No may win, is that some people want answers to questions, which are, in principle, unanswerable: what will the price of bread be after Independence? They don’t ask how will the economy of the UK develop after a No vote, they seem unconcerned by being ruled by the Nasty Party and are unfazed by the prospect of Nasty Party Lite, they don’t realise that the UK is in a fiscal and social mess and believe austerity is the only answer to the problems left by Labour and if that means the poor and vulnerable must suffer then so be it. The same questions they want answered by Yes they fail to ask of the UK which faces an even bigger risk than an independent Scotland will face. They seem uninterested in socio-political questions and won’t inform themselves.

As well as an obligation on politicians to inform the electorate, we must also inform ourselves.

Hewitt83

Wish I had a shred of the optimism of some on here.

I thought that debate did the Yes campaign zero favours last night. WE know the ‘no currency union’ line is a campaign tactic.

WE know this. And both campaigns know this.

However, ordinary Joe Public who takes no interest in Politics usually and doesn’t bother to undertake any critical research does not know this. And he/she makes up a very sizeable chunk of the electorate.

It is bullying but unfortunately it is very effective with your average undecided/soft No voter.

I said from the start we should’ve went for a new Scottish currency and ultimately that may cost us.

Praying for a mirable on the 18th of September.

paul

The Daily Retard won’t let post anything negative about Darling censorship is alive and well at the Tass sorry I mean Record. Their poll is very close but yes just shading it.46% to 42%.

Mosstrooper

I watched the debate and I’ve read the comments and soon I am off to deliver 350 pamphlets for YES. all of which reminds me of the ZEN teaching;

Before enlightenment–chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment—chop wood ,draw water

Awayanbileyerheed

I was at the debate but couldn’t ask a question! Seats were allocated prior to arriving following a vetting process. Most of the people next to me beside the center floor seats were Yes and we had our hands up for the entire meeting and were looked at but none of our section were ever asked. Only the center floor section were asked.
They asked what way we were going to vote and a potential question at the weekend before the debate. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions

Colin Church

Disappointed. Salmond referencing in the know, in the political bubble, lines that just went over every undecided head. Side of road and aliens nonsense bizarre when he should have nailed pensions, UK NHS / GOSH, Broons scare on transplants etc. Was always going to run out of time to nail this route properly. Bitters mantra for next 6 weeks will be plan B – what is it?. It is all they have left. Our defence of an un-named source in a Guardian report is weak. Format was dreadful. Ponsonby more effective at skewering Darling than AS. New powers bit was the best question of the night that should have been pursued. I wanted to see the “we seek a country” Salmond.

heedtracker

Praying for a mirable on the 18th of September. and a spell checker

HALF A MILLION Scots take home barely a fiver an hour, another half a million are on state benefits or have never and probably will never work.

Social housing was ended by Thatcher and Darling and Labour made sure it stayed that way and food banks or soup kitchens are a fact of life for people living in a country that floats on oil and gas. Norwegians are staggered at poverty in Scotland.

Where does Scotland’s wealth go?

Why can the teamGB rich legally evade tax Alistair Flypper Darling?

Why do we let them keep taking Scotland’s wealth and pump it into the south of England?

Robert Peffers

@Peter A Bell says: 6 August, 2014 at 12:29 am:
Where Salmond missed an opportunity was his failure to turn the currency issue around by quizzing Darling on who made the decision to threaten abolition of the currency union

Peter, I’m going through my recording of the broadcast right now and Salmond did challange Darling. He stated BT claimed the three minister/shadow ministers were doing what Darling asked when they united to say no currency union. Darling just ignored it.

Graham

I thought the setup would be rigged. Why not lie when vetted and then ask your real question if picked?

Dorothy Devine

Some folk are in danger of doing what the MSM wants – making the referendum all about Alex Salmond .

I think it was abundantly clear that this debate was going to push that , that and nothing else.

The voices of reason were too reasonable, too analytical when it came to the round up at the end .
Messrs McWhirter and Kane being the two of whom I’m thinking .

I was a member of a debating society many moons ago – never have I seen a debate set up in this manner.

Perhaps STV could take a lesson from this,

link to youtube.com

If that doesn’t work try googling Glasgow Uni Independence debate and join it halfway through.

Gordon E

I was really disappointed last night, but as mentioned before, Salmonds performance seemed to be specifically for the female vote. More measured and less combatative.
In this he has won, with the female Yes voting intentions up 8%. All the women I have spoken to today have said positive things about Alex last night and all the men negative.

bunter

We must remember, the YES campaign have got this far despite 2 years of MSM monstering, so as no doubt the propaganda today will be bad, it cant be that effective.

YES just needs to keep doing their thing and next time a debate comes along, Darling’s pound scare will sound tired and we get the old Salmond back.

Gordon E

Speaking to my Yes voting bus driver this morning, he mentioned his friend was involved in last nights poll.
When asked what his voting intentions were he was told that the poll was now closed after he said he was voting Yes.
What is going on there then!

Cyberniall

I think I was disappointed last night because Alex Salmond couldn’t clearly answer questions. I understand why and that Darling was the same but that’s my point, I don’t want your typical question dodging politician running an independent Scotland.

He needs to win over No voters and undecideds. Simple as that. Yes supporters like ourselves know the answers but it needs to come from him. We saw it last night when audience members made points about the pound losing value, point he should make. Too many people have not thought that far ahead and assume it is just wishful thinking on AS’s behalf.

chalks

My facebook is going mental, so taranaich maybe has a good point lol

Sharing the currency options far and wide and also mentioning that the ruk would have their pound weakened by us not being in a currency union

galamcennalath

After the debate I concluded Salmond had won. Not by the questions he had answered nor by the way he tackled the pound issue. He won because he managed to make points which would appeal to Labour voting DKs.

I posted my thoughts last night on the previous thread, but as often happens, it failed to appear.

Salmond succeeded in making points about food banks, child poverty, bedroom tax .. and other social justice topics. This would have been intentional and would have been aimed at the main target DK group.

In contrast, Darling’s focus on the pound might play to hard No voters, but I doubt if it’s the most important issue for the target DKs.

In my estimation Salmond set out with too objectives. Firstly, as stated, to get a message to Labour voting DKs. Secondly to attempt show BetterTogether for what it is – fear, confusion and disingenuous (he couldn’t quite claim lying). He reinforced this second in the minds of the target DKs by continually highlighting the relationship between BT, Darling and the Tories. In those he succeeded well, if not quite resoundingly.

Darling lost on a number of fronts. Most, by focusing on the tactically irrelevant pound argument.

Now I see Stu’s clever deduction that DKs thought Salmond won 3:1, I believe my analysis was correct.

Awayanbileyerheed

@Graham.
They had data from Ipsos Mori which is why I was invited so to try to say the opposite of what I said to MORI could have made it worse for me in my mind. Thought they were just going to give put random seats as you entered. Even the key questioners had their seats allocated in what made it appear randomly distributed. But they all had to ask their questions before in a test before going live

schrodinger's cat

more heat than light, nothing new in the debate
audience reaction was what was on show, how many boos did as/ad get etc
the questions that were asked by as/ad were not spontainious, they were considered before hand, asking about project fear was a good idea, but by choosing the most rediculous, aliens etc, allowed AD to laugh them off as a joke. AS should have asked about browns transplant fiasco and the reply from g. ormond street. less funny
wrt the Currency question, this has been done to death and got salmond the biggest boo, was there anyway to avoid this? i doubt it. this format would never give space for reasoned debate although one member of the audience did take the correct route in trying to point out what would happen to the pound if scotland (10%) left.

heedtracker

link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
Swing from NO, after their triumph last night is not a triumph and they know it.

Or and but, how is Yes gaining 4% after last night losing? Pull your heads out of your behinds and soak up the BBC propaganda. You’ll never see this level of state broadcasting corruption anywhere again, until the try to get Cameron reelected:D

Don’t knows thought Salmond won, 45% to 55%
No’s thought Darling won, 90% to 10%
Yes’s thought Salmond won, 80% to 20%

10% of NO Thanks UKOK thought Darling won shock.

Clootie

Just a thought/reflection:

Think back to that handful of souls fighting for independece 40/50 years ago.I was not one but I have met a few – those still active are filled with an incredible determination

The newspapers were very strong and very unionist.No SKY TV etc – A few channels and all news controlled and a few slots during the day not 24/7 cover. (although we did’t know the full extent of the bias at the time)

The Labour Party was all powerful.

No Internet – link up communication / research / source material / etc – NIL

Printing leaflets on old fashioned roller presses and hand delivering.No computers and printers (or laminators etc)
Coming 4th. in seats or losing deposits.As one said to me “…and worried sick in case you did win because you had work the next day”. So few in number that they took turns at stand ing for election.

Poor link up to co-ordinate (no computers / no internet / no mobile phones (maybe no land line phone)

They kept going and enabled us to get to where we are today.
Think about what they achieved and with zero chance of winning but with every effort put in to move things on.

We have the chance to cross the line thanks to them – think of them and what they had to work around when you feel the head going down.
In the best Monty Python tradition …”you think you have it bad?”

Ken500

If Alex Salmond increased the female vote job done.

CarbonBlf

Beatiful work Stu. I felt as though Salmond’s biggest mistake was preparing for a civilised debate with references at the ready instead of coming up against an opponent who behaved like a back seat drunken heckler at a Fringe show. And is it just me, but that Darling’s shouty ‘how dare you’ finger waving in our face prompts my own fingers to curl into a fist.
You’re right about all this Plan B stuff – it should have been sorted and answered long ago so we can get on with the serious stuff. Overall, I saw a grand opportunity wasted and I still can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would vote anything but Yes.

ian foulds

Taranaich says:

6 August, 2014 at 1:49 am

‘… I knew what was happening – Alex Salmond is giving the power to us. If he did the obvious, then it would be Alex Salmond destroying Darling. But seeing dozens of people doing it for him on social media, knowing that there are hundreds of thousands of Yes voters doing the same, I realised that the First Minister was essentially channeling that power to us.

Because as is obvious, it is the people who will make this.’

WELL SAID.

Our slightly disappointed fellow-travellers have unconsciously taken up the cudgels – keep it going!

I a sure AS will keep his ‘powder dry’ until it is too late for BT.

john j

Yesterday’s Herald headline was ‘Salmond odd-on favourite to win TV battle’ , today’s was ‘Darling draws first blood’. Raising expectations yesterday to emphasise today’s pre-determined headline.

William Steele

I am so disappointed in Alex Salmond’s performance. He spent time on trivia and evading answering the currency question when he could have attacked the lies and psychological warfare of the UK government. He could have addressed the issue of the NHS, and al the positive reports on independent Scotland’s finances. I’m so disappointed.

Bill Halliday

Wait ’till countries and traders holding sterling in the hope of an iterest rate rise start to get jittery about Project Fear’s stance on the pound. Then you will see some back tracking.

yerkitbreeks

If the Plan B or other, is admitted to it should be closely allied to the post YES discovery that the government of our new neighbour is so hostile as to beggar its own population and business.

john j

And Rev. You’ve got a great career ahead of you as a psefolo– psephol–sefolo– Och you know what I mean!

Juteman

Maybe Darling was only ‘joking’ when he said there would be no CU.

heedtracker

@ William Steele, you’re not disappointed about the 4% swing to YES though are you William?

Maybe there’s more to the future of Scotland than trying to monster a completely failed has been opposition bank bencher like Alistair Darling.

We are all living with the consequences of New Labour and ConDem Westminster’s nightmare for Scotland. We don’t need one of teamGB’s chief architects monstered on stage by Scotland’s FM who dspite austerity, really is balancing the books and working for Scotland.

Darling and co have had their day. Unless you’re a City bankster, a warmonger, a tax dodger etc, they were a disaster. Let’s move on.

handclapping

We will get the pound, rUK will be using Bitcoin 😉
link to bbc.co.uk

Arel

I think we should remember that this is only the first of probably 3 TV debates. I would imagine that AS is probably keeping his powder dry for later debates (closer to the Referendum itself for maximum impact) and then hit Darling big time on his lack of answers for more powers, NHS privatisation, the Barnett formula and have another go at him about whether he thinks Scotland can survive and prosper as an independent nation.

Salmond’s strategists will have been watching this last night and will be advising him where he looked strongest and weakest.

AS should not waver on the currency issue because no matter how many plans he had it is simply the attack dog for No and their sole tactic. I think there is a lot more AS can say in defence of the CU especially the vindictive approach taken by Osbourne, Balls and Alexander. I think we’ll see something in later debates.

Darling and BT/No Thanks have nothing positive to offer, just the usual fears. AS should continue to hammer them on that.

Ken500

Aye remember when Clegg did well in a TV performance. It didn’t turn out too well. People are being sanctioned and walking to food banks.

Unionists including Danny Alexander, who implemented ‘the room tax’, increased students fees and privatising the NHS now claim after 4 years that it was a mistake. The Scottish gov was right.

The ConDems elected to protect NHS/Education and pay off the debt are a failure.

Ross Mckay

To be fair, given that the undecideds in the poll post referendum were just 31 people its not really something to get excited about.

ian foulds

Clootie at 9.30am

A good reminder to us all – thanks

Edward

Having slept overnight (sounds a bit obvious) have had tme to reflect on last night

The conclusion was this :

1. STV are hopeless at organising debates

2. Bernard Ponsonby was crap at moderating, including a hint of bias

3. STV were idiots with having both commercial breaks AND breaks to the so called ‘spin room’

4. STV should have a serious look at their ‘live streaming’ set up – its crap!

5. STV should have at least done a deal with ITV to broadcast to the rest of the UK

6. STV should not have had any arrangement with IPSOS/MORI, which clearly skewed the poll as well as the audience

7. Alex Salmond was badly advised to talk at length about ‘Project Fear’ – Why? we already know about it, everyone knows about it and should have been dealt with over a year ago!

8. Alex Salmond should have been more blunt regarding oil, when Darling kept saying that it was running out, that should have been challenged. This is now a fresh item with news regarding Clair Ridge (doesn’t his advisors keep up with what’s going on?)

9. Alex Salmond should have been blunt, that without sharing the pound and not having any oil to back the pound, England will be fucked (perhaps not as strong as that, but you get the drift). He should also have stated the countries that have and still do share currencies or have currencies that are pegged to the US Dollar, such as Hong Kong.

Finally to say, that Alex Salmond WAS set up, that is clear, we had all the pre debate hype, aided and abetted by all that he was ‘going to wipe the floor with Darling’ and other such stuff. I knew from the level of guff flowing from the MSM, that this was a set up. Enter Darling with new designer specs, the underdog, helped along by the host, suddenly the blood on the floor is not Darling’s its Salmond’s THAT IS the perception and perception IS everything

Hobbit

Forget the polls – can we actually get people out to vote?

I was at an independence meeting a few weeks ago in Edinburgh which was hosted by the Scottish Socialists. At question time, someone asked, “how can we get middle-class voters on side?” – the implication being that their view was on balance, no – for all sorts of reasons.

Now, on that basis the middle class(es) will get out and vote, and vote no … how do we know that the Yes campaign will be able to get its voters out?

Rolf

Last night I felt pretty disappointed by the debate. Felt that Salmond squirmed or smiled meekly when he had an open door to be concise or cutting.

However, this morning I feel differently.

Judging by social media/comments here and elsewhere, Yes voters all now seem more energised and focussed in their arguments. How many have you seen or heard say, “I could have answered that question better myself”?

On the currency topic, Salmond is constrained and can’t talk too much about plan B. He also can’t talk too much about the damage that would be done to rUK/Sterling if Scotland’s revenues came out of the balance of payments and Scotland took no share of the debt (remember it is assets AND liabilities or neither). For him to talk too much about the former could scare the markets and would be portrayed in the media as threatening and irresponsible. However, the rest of us can and will talk about these issues.

We all keep saying that Yes isn’t about Alex Salmond and for me last night brought that closer to home. It is up to all of us to get out there on the doorsteps and say the things we think Salmond didn’t/couldn’t.

heedtracker

Ross Mckay says:
6 August, 2014 at 9:58 am
To be fair, given that the undecideds in the poll post referendum were just 31 people its not really something to get excited about.

READ the report, its the UKOK propaganda machine thats using it for their Darling saves the union bollox.

Murray McCallum

I would really like to hear from Angry Darling why Scotland could not thrive as an independent country (e.g. where Scots could continue to live and work unlike now) and why it, if you listen to him, is uniquely placed to not successfully operate any form of currency.

The next debate needs to be more about the future longer term visions of the UK versus an independent Scotland.

They really need to change the format.

Ross Mckay

If the yes vote does lose in September the finger of blame can be pointed squarely and unwaveringly at Salmond and the SNP, due to their incomprehensive failure to come up with a plan B to the currency union.

Bugger (the Panda)

handclapping

I thought the £stg was effectively a prototype bitcoin.

A currency built on fresh air.

heedtracker

Retweet there on WoS, Rangers fans boo Flower of Scotland and soon the Orange Order will be marching through Edinburgh en masse. Rule Britannia, Scotland region.

Forever Rangers
?@danrfc_
@mstewart_23 go fuck your maw ya inbred ginger cunt flying a tricolour in Britain !!! Not allowed

Ross Mckay

‘Salmond is constrained and can’t talk too much about plan B’

Why not? Don’t the Scottish government have a duty and obligation to the people of Scotland to tell us about their plan B (if they have one), particularly as they claim that they want us to have an ‘informed debate’.

‘Scotland took no share of the debt (remember it is assets AND liabilities or neither)’

But a system of currency isn’t an asset.

heedtracker

Ross Mckay says:
6 August, 2014 at 10:03 am
If the yes vote does lose in September the finger of blame can be pointed squarely and unwaveringly at Salmond and the SNP, due to their incomprehensive failure to come up with a plan B to the currency union

Sterling is Scotland’s currency and Scotland is voting Yes.

Ross Mckay

‘is uniquely placed to not successfully operate any form of currency’

But no one is saying Scotland couldn’t operate any form of currency – just that the SNP have failed to come up with an actual plan to do so.

Adrian B

Four interesting perspectives in the Daily Record that people should have a quick look at regarding last nights debate:

link to dailyrecord.co.uk

McTim

Irvine Welsh on twitter last night: “Couldn’t give a toss whether Indy Scotland would have Pound, Euro or new Scot currency. It’s whose pockets it goes into that’s the issue”. Let’s hope many undecideds feel the same way. Wee Eck needs to hammer Flipper hard on Trident and the risks to the Scottish NHS next time, and point out the risks to the rump UK if they really did decide to cut off their own noses to spite an Indy Scotland’s new Government.

Ross Mckay

‘Sterling is Scotland’s currency and Scotland is voting Yes’

No, sterling is the UK’s currency. If Scotland votes yes it will be voting to leave the UK.

A system of currency is not an asset.

Why have the SNP failed to come up with a plan B to the currency union as any normal capable competent government would do?

Nana Smith

Well for all the negativity folk on here Mr Salmond appears to have done just fine.

We all knew the media would push darling and put BT plants in the audience. For me the opening statement from the FM showed who really cares for Scotland and its people.

link to dailyrecord.co.uk

Murray McCallum

Can all trolls please read the White Paper for currency options.

No no no...Yes